 | |
| |
Will tickets be selling "at the gate" next Saturday?
1SF9, a humble out of towner with a
deeeeeeelayed mail system... :L
I don't see why not. We've got over 50 tickets sold, but I think we can squeeze in a few more.
David Ross
Director
New York Division
Electric Railroaders' Association, Incorporated
I would like the address of the ERA and the New York Division. Thanks!
Electric Railroaders' Association, Incoroporated
PO Box 3323
New York NY 10163-3323
New York Division, Electric Railroaders' Association, Incorporated
PO Box 3001
New York NY 10008-3001
David Ross
Director
New York Division
Electric Railroaders' Association, Incorporated
To David:
Will there be one in the future that you know of, because I can't make it next Saturday.
Thanks
Neil Feldman
NNEILEF@AOL.COM
We try to alternate tours among facilities so that people don't get tired of being asked to go to the same place year after year. However, if there is a groundswell of support for another trip, we'll certainly consider it.
David Ross
Director
New York Division
Electric Railroaders' Association, Incorporated
We kicked off the official field trip by meeting in the Great Hall at Union Station at 3:00. It was me, Bill Steil (wsteil), Bob Vogel (chuchubob), and Ed Sachs.
We headed over to the Quincy "L" stop a couple blocks east of Union Station, and after a few minutes, caught the Evanston Express up to Howard. Being the beginnings of evening rush hour, we didn't have that great of a view out the front because the train was fairly crowded.
At Howard, we transferred to the Skokie Swift and rode that out to Dempster and back. We then caught the next Evanston Express back to the Loop. Because we were heading inbound this time, we got excellent vantage points at the railfan windows on both the Skokie and Evanston trains.
Both the Evanston and Skokie runs were nice and fast, with hardly any slow zones on the express portions. On the outbond Skokie run, we got a good chuckle at the sight of an SUV that hadn't quite stopped in time at one of the grade crossings. It was well off the tracks, but the arm of the crossing gate was resting literally on his windshield! Better than getting run over by a train, I suppose.
When our Evanston Express train got to Merchandise Mart, we got off and transferred to the next Ravenswood train and rode that back to Quincy. (Normally we would take the Evanston train around the Loop, but we had to be back at Union Station to meet some more SubTalkers.)
We got off at Quincy, walked back over to Union Station, and met up with Irwin Davis (chicagomotorman), John Bredin, and Dave Steckler. Around 6:00 we headed down to the Clinton stop on the Blue Line and rode the Douglas "L" out to 54th/Cermak and back.
We got off at UIC-Halsted, took a look at the new station house there, and then had a huge dinner at Greek Islands -- complete with the flaming slab of cheese -- in the nearby Greektown neighborhood.
We then walked back over towards Union Station, where Ed Sachs and John Bredin left the group in order to catch their Metra trains back home. Dave Steckler headed back to the Holiday Inn where he was staying. The rest of us walked over to the Club Quarters hotel and hung out in the lobby for a while to mostly talk about trains, baseball, and malicious gossip about our fellow SubTalkers.
After about an hour or so, we decided to call it a night. Bob and Bill headed up to their rooms, and Irwin and I headed over to the Red Line for the journey home.
We plan on getting an early start tomorrow with a hearty breakfast at Lou Mitchell's before carpooling out to the Illinois Railway Museum.
Watch for more updates as the weekend progresses!
-- David
Chicago, IL
We started off the morning with a huge breakfast at Lou Mitchell's near Union Station. It was me, Ed, Bill, Bob, Dave, and John. Since there were six of us and three of us had cars (including Ed' minivan), we decided to head out to Cumberland where John and I would park our cars in the Park-n-Ride garage and then we'd all pile into Ed's minivan.
On the way out to IRM, we took a short detour over to the Fox River Trolley Museum in South Elgin, a couple miles south of the tollway. We got there before the museum officially opened, but took a walk around and got some photos of their small collection of mostly CTA, South Shore and North Shore cars that were stored outside. Fox River can be thought of as sort of an appetizer before the main course at IRM.
We arrived at IRM shortly after 11:00 AM, and took a walk around before meeting up with Frank Hicks at the Depot Street trolley stop. Jim Kestner and his friend met up with us briefly before they continues on their way. Frank was kind enough to take a huge chunk out of his schedule to give us a VERY extensive tour of the museum, including the electric, steam, trolley bus, and deisel departments. The tour also included several "behind-the-scenes" areas of the various car shops. Frank's knowledge of the equipment out at IRM is astounding, and his giving us the tour is greatly appreciated. Thanks, Frank!
After leaving the deisel barn, we grabbed the PCC "Green Hornet" trolley around the loop before heading over to the dead storage area in search of the scrapped MBTA PCC's. Sure enough, we found them all the way at the end of the yard in pretty sad shape. One had its door open, so a couple of us made our way inside and looked around.
We then walked over to the station on the mainline track, and caught a two-car train of CTA single units 30 and 41 on a regular revenue run. I introduced our party to Pete Vesic, who has sort of "adopted" the CTA single units and who has done most of the restoration and maintenance work on them. He offered to take us out on the CTA cars once they completed their revenue operations, so we stuck around and took him up on his offer.
We took the two-car train out to the siding (about halfway out on the 5-mile mainline) and broke the train. We left car 41 on the siding and then raised the pantograph on car 30. (Car 41 has the typical trolley pole for museum operations, while car 30 has the original pantograph from its Skokie Swift days. Normally car 30 gets its power from a clever arrangement of jumpers from car 41. But with the pan up, the car was back to its "true" form.)
A couple of the guys got off and took photos of car 30, and then we all got back on and took the car out to the end of the line and back a couple times, using the pan. (Normally the pans don't mix well with the museum trolley wire, but it's less of an issue out on the mainline.) During this whole process, each of us who so desired got some time at the controller, and got the car up to about 40 MPH or so each time. Very cool!
Special thanks to Frank Hicks and Pete Vesic for a most excellent day at the Illinois Railway Museum!!
We finally left the museum around 7:30 or so, and stopped back at Cumberland to pick up our cars. John Bredin had to leave us at this point to head home, but the rest of us headed over to Tedino's Pizzeria here in my neighborhood for an excellent meal of Chicago-style deep-dish pizza. Also very cool!
Ed gave Bill and Bob a ride back to the hotel downtown, and I retired to my apartment down the street. We plan on meeting tomorrow at 9:45 AM at the Jackson stop on the Red Line where we'll hook up with Irwin (chicagomotorman), who will be operating on the Red Line.
Stay tuned for more updates, and watch for many photos to be posted online soon!
-- David
Chicago, IL
Unfortunately there was no steam this weekend. Due to recent new FRA regulations regarding steam operations at tourist railroads, no steam locos were in use. Lots of diesels and elecric cars, though.
We also had the pleasure of touring the trolley bus barn and receiving an in-depth explanation of the goings-on at IRM by a fellow who is restoring the trolley busses. IRM has been collecting trolley busses for almost 30 years. They have the only operating trolley bus line in a tourist museum in the United States, with about a dozen tolley busses (they call them trolley coaches) in their collection, and about a half-dozen diesel and gas busses. John and I rode on Miami Valley Regional Transit Authority (Dayton, Ohio) E-800 Flyer #925 trolley bus (built in 1977) around the bus loop. Fun!
And get this, subway fans...this fellow (who loves the NYC subway system) is arranging for the IRM to aquire two Redbirds! Most likely they will be R-28's and/or R-29's. IRM already has a Brill SEPTA subway car; I forget what SEPTA designates the model but it similar in size and configuration to a BMT Standard. The museum is in the process of raising funds (donations) to acquire the cars.
Most of us took lots of pictures this Field Trip and we'll be e-mailing them to David Cole for collection purposes; he'll forward them to Dave Pirmann for posting here on Subtalk. Look for them soon!
Nice to hear that Green Hornet 4391 was running on the loop. How was it? Did you "enter at rear", since it is a rear entrance PCC?
Yes, we did get in via the back door.
In typical IRM fashion, our tickets got punched by a volunteer acting as conductor and sitting at the conductor's station just ahead of the rear platform.
However, they do not stand on ceremony, and some people did enter through the front (exit) doors. The middle exit door wasn't working on Saturday.
-- Ed Sachs
On behalf of all of us who participated, I want to express a very hearty "Thank You" to David Cole for pulling this together.
-- Ed Sachs
Thank you Dave. It was a pleasure meeting all of you.
It was my pleasure!
Here's a sample of many photos taken so far this weekend:
From left to right: Me, John Bredin, Bill Steil (wsteil), Bob Vogel (chuchubob), Dave Steckler, and Frank Hicks at the Illinois Railway Museum.
Stay tuned for many more!
-- David
Chicago, IL
We started the morning today by meeting at the Jackson stop on the Red Line at around 9:45 AM. It was me, Dave, Bill, Bob and John, and we were to catch a southbound Red Line train being run by SubTalk's own Irwin Davis (chicagomotorman). He pulled in right on schedule, and we were treated to an excellent view (along with running commentary) down to 95th/Dan Ryan and then all the way back up to Howard. Special thanks to Irwin for putting up with a bunch of unruly railfans for part of your run, and for answering all our dumb questions!
Once we got to Howard, we waited for Irwin to finish up and sign off, and then all of us headed down to Byron's hot dog stand at Irving Park and Sheridan for some authentic Chicago-style hot dogs eaten outside in beautiful weather, with the Red Line "L" squealing around the Sheridan S-curve nearby. It simply does not get any better than that!
We hopped back on the Red Line and decided to explore the Orange Line, since Dave's flight would be leaving from Midway before long. We transferred to the Brown Line at Fullerton, and then to the Orange Line at Adams/Wabash. Once at Midway, we spent some time exploring the new terminal and its lousy connection with the Orange Line CTA station before seeing Dave off on his way.
We took the Orange Line back toward the Loop, and transferred at Roosevelt to the northbound Green Line. We rode the Green Line out to Harlem/Lake, stopping to explore the new Conservatory station, and then came back in to Clark/Lake. We then crossed over and took the Brown Line out to the end and back. At Belmont, Irwin left the group and headed home for some well-deserved rest.
Returning to the Loop, we got off at Quincy and walked over to Union Station as Bob had an Amtrak train to catch back to Philly. A short time later, we finally hooked up with Kevin Walsh, who had been missing in action most of the weekend due to some serious flight delays on Friday. (Kevin had been making constructive use of the weekend by exploring most of Chicago's nooks and crannys before meeting us.)
We then walked back over to Quincy and grabbed another Brown Line train up to Fullerton. Getting off at Fullerton, we walked over to the Pasta Bowl on Clark Street, a small Italion restaurant in my old stomping grounds of Lincoln Park. After dinner, John took off to head back home, while the three of us remaining (Kevin, Bill and myself) took a 36 Broadway bus back to the Loop. Once downtown, I gave sort of a mini-architectural tour of a few buildings near the hotel where Kevin and Bill were staying, and we talked in the hotel lobby for a while longer before calling it a night. Kevin and Bill headed up to their rooms, while I headed off to the Red Line and home.
We plan on getting a very early start tomorrow morning, meeting at Randolph Street Station at 6:45 AM to catch a Metra Electric train down to Hyde Park and back before taking the Blue Line out to O'Hare to see Kevin off.
Special thanks to all who have made this such a fun weekend so far... Stay tuned for the finall installment sometime tomorrow. Also, look for many photos from this weekend to be online soon!
-- David
Chicago, IL
Did you get a Nova LFS on the 36 Broadway Line? And while on your trip, Did you saw any LFS's?
I'd also like to thank Irwin for the fascinating running commentary on the Red line down to 95/Dan Ryan and up to Howard. A super nice guy who apparantly knows every station agent along the route!
Bryn Mawr is my home stop when I'm in Chicago at my aunt's. She lives a block south of that station, right on the corner of Catalpa and Winthrop; in fact, her building is right next to the L structure.
Wow, that's right in my neighborhood. I usually pass through that intersection as I'm driving around looking for a parking spot, as Catalpa is the first west-running street north of Foster. I live right at Foster and Sheridan myself. No L adjacent to my building, but at any given time there's about a half-dozen CTA busses idling outside my window. :-)
-- David
Chicago, IL
My aunt's building is the Chateau. AFAIK she's the last remaining original tenant, having lived there since March of 1967.
Let's see: Catalpa runs one way west; Balmoral is one-way east. Isn't Berwyn two-way?
Foster is where Lake Shore Drive ended before it was extended north to Hollywood Ave. in the 1950s. It is said that that extension ultimately doomed the famed Edgewater Beach Hotel, which was a block north at Berwyn. You're not in that 60-story triangular building by any chance, are you?
Isn't Berwyn two-way?
Depends, as Berwyn is a little weird. Berwyn is two-way for only a single block, between Broadway and Winthrop. (This is the block that contains the "L" stop, btw.) West of Broadway, Berwyn is one-way westbound. East of Winthrop, Berwyn is one-way eastbound.
You're not in that 60-story triangular building by any chance, are you?
No, that's about a block north of me and on the other side of Sheridan. I'm in the large red brick apartment building directly on the northwest corner of Foster and Sheridan, across Sheridan from the Dominick's grocery store and across Foster from the McDonald's. The building is of 1920's vintage, 8 floors tall, and has a floor plan shaped like an upper-case "E". That is, it has a long corridor at the rear, running parallel to the alley, with three wings perpendicular to Sheridan. There's a video store, a couple beauty parlors, and a greasy spoon restaurant on the ground floor.
-- David
Chicago, IL
Catalpa is also two-way between Winthrop and Broadway as it ducks beneath the L. Whenever we'd leave my aunt's apartment to get to Lake Shore Drive, we'd go down Winthorp to Berwyn, usually, or Foster.
I always wonder why they never bothered to reroute US 41 along Lake Shore Drive when it was extended north to Hollywood. IIRC US 41 still turns off at the Foster exit. My folks got thrown for a loop back in 1970 when we were headed to bunker down at my aunt and uncle's apartment on Sheridan Rd. They told my folks to "take US 41 and it'll lead you right to us." Well, my father turned off on Foster and headed up Sheridan Rd. They were a block or two north of Hollywood. We went right by the Edgewater Beach Hotel, which was being demolished at the time.
I'd like to second Dave's thanking of Irwin. Any field of endeavor could use employees like him. When we arrived at 95th (south end of his Red Line run), we had to wait for a train to leave the platform before we could pull in. Irwin cue'd the announcement that we were being delayed by a raised drawbridge.
I'd also like to second everybody's thanking of Dave Cole for organizing a terrific trip. For me, the "handle time" on Skokie Swift #41 and the trips with Irwin as the motorman on the Red Line were highlights of an outstanding SubTalk trip.
Of course, the camaraderie with everyone in the group made for a fun weekend.
Bob
No, we got one of the New Flyer low-floor busses on the Broadway route. The new Nova busses don't typically run out of North Park Garage, and in fact it's rather unusual to have even a New Flyer on the 36. Nine times out of ten, that route is usually stuck with the MAN bricks.
-- David
Chicago, IL
The Nova(lox) flyers are out of the Archer,79th, and 71st garages. Those are strange buses. Why in the world would you have a seat facing backwards in the back? The MAN bricks no longer travel the 36 Broadway. As of about 4 weeks ago, the route became "wheelchair accessible", with rts's and low floor flyers.
Whoops. Shows you how often I ride the 36 Broadway route, even though it's only two blocks away from my apartment.
I think the new Nova busses are pretty sharp-looking on the outside, but I agree with you about the weirdness of the seating arrangement. I much prefer the New Flyers myself.
-- David
Chicago, IL
Did you got a Photo of it?
No, not really. A) I see them everyday and have ridden them hundreds of times, so I don't really have any pressing need to take a photo of it, and B) I'm not particularly interested in busses to begin with. That's why you see me posting on SubTalk and not BusTalk. :-)
-- David
Chicago, IL
I am back in the NY Groove as Ace Frehley would say, and thanks to David and all for a terrific Chicago visit.
www.forgotten-ny.com
I can't believe this. I've seen your "Chicago Field Trip" listed on the Upcoming Events page for months now, but when I was planning my trip out to Milwaukee, I didn't think to look at the date of your trip. Anyhow, my father and I drove from upstate NY to Chicago on Saturday night. Took us 10 hours. We parked near Union Station at 8:00am Sunday morning and went for rides on the Blue Line and the Loop. It was great. My dad and I had never been on the loop before. I took a lot of pictures which hopefully I will post or submit to this site. We only had two hours on the L because the main reason of our trip was to go to the 1:05 PM CST Milwaukee Brewers game. We went to the game [Brewers lost :( ], stayed overnight in Milwaukee, and then drove home today.
We stopped in Cleveland on the way home. I took a lot of pictures of the light rail line cars going past the Amtrak station. I also got pictures of a passing Norfolk Southern freight and the westbound Pennsylvanian.
Ok, time for bed. Driving 1500+ miles, seeing a baseball game, and doing a few hours of railfanning all in 49 hours is a bit much. It was a lot of fun!
Today was the last day of our first SubTalk Chicago Field Trip. The four of us (Kevin Walsh, Bill Steil, John Bredin, and myself) got an early start by meeting down at Randolph Street Station and catching the 7:00 AM Metra Electric train down to Hyde Park. Once down there, we did some exploring of the neighborhood, including the Midway Plaissance, the University of Chicago campus, Frank Lloyd Wright's Robie House, and Rockefeller Chapel.
We grabbed the 8:40 train back downtown and then walked over to the Club Quarters hotel where Kevin was staying, as he was flying back to NYC early this afternoon and needed to check out and pick up his bags. We had a large breakfast next door at Elephant and Castle, a London-themed restaurant, and then caught the CTA Blue Line out to O'Hare. Since the group hadn't done any railfanning on the O'Hare branch yet, this worked out perfectly.
Kevin's wait in the line at O'Hare took less time than expected, so we took the opportunity to do some exploring of the dmoestic terminals at the airport, particularly the Helmut Jahn-designed Terminal 1. We took a look at the bright, airy concourses before heading down to the "reincarnation tunnel" that connects Concourse C to the rest of the terminal. (For those of you who have never flown United Airlines to Chicago, the "reincarnation tunnel" is an underground passage with multi-colored backlit walls and a dynamic neon light display along the ceiling.) Once we got to Concourse C, we turned around and went back the way we came.
By this time Kevin's plane was preparing to board, so we shook hands with the great Forgotten New York webmaster and parted ways.
Our SubTalk field trip ended incongruously back at the CTA Blue Line terminal, when I got seperated from John and Bill when I had to go back to the farecard vending machine and add some cash to my farecard. The machine took my $10 bill but never added any value to the card, so I spent the next 10-15 minutes flagging down the station agent and filling out a form before he could give me a replacement farecard. Arrrgh!
By the time I got down to the platform level, John and Bill were gone. John had planned to get off at Cumberland anyway to head home, and as far as I know Bill had some friends to meet here in town before heading back home tomorrow.
So, thus endeth our field trip. I headed back home to write this final installment before I try catching up on some much-needed sleep.
John and Bill: I didn't get a chance to say it in person, but I enjoyed meeting you guys and I hope we can have another one of these field trips again next summer. It was a fun weekend!
Also, special thanks to Frank Hicks, Pete Vesic, and Irwin Davis for making this a very enjoyable weekend!
To those who were on the field trip, feel free to fill in any things I missed or to share your own experiences. I'll take this little chronicle along with whatever else anybody has to add, include the photos and captions, and then create a full report for Dave Pirmann to add to the site.
-- David
Chicago, IL
In no particular order, David(Cole),Dave(Steckler), John,Bill,Ed,and Bob, it is a great feeling to know that I made new freinds this weekend. Kevin, I am dissappointed I didn't get a chance to meet you, as a person who even being a native Chicagoan, I am fasinated by New York, and enjoy your web site. and Pete even though we may have had a difference of opinion, maybe sometime we can meet sit down and iron out our differences. In the words of that famous American, Rodney King,"Can't we all just get along?"
I'm also disappointed I didn't get to meet Kevin. I really enjoy his Forgotten NY website -- I tune in there regularly to see what new stuff he's posted.
-- Ed Sachs
>>>>even being a native Chicagoan, I am fasinated by New York, and enjoy your web site.<<<
Thanks and rest assured Forgotten is back on the air, er, the web, after a one-week absence...
www.forgotten-ny.com
Now to hunt down some Chicago references...can www.forgotten-chicago.com be far ahead?
Now to hunt down some Chicago references...can www.forgotten-chicago.com be far ahead?
Nice to see Chicago had that much of an impact on you. :-)
Also nice to see you made it back to NYC without any serious delays, especially after what you went through on Friday. It was great meeting you... I have a huge amount of respect for anybody who obviously enjoys urban exploration as much as you do.
-- David
Chicago, IL
>>>>I have a huge amount of respect for anybody who
obviously enjoys urban exploration as much as you do. <<<
The CTA line by line and station for station is an impressive accomplishment in its own right!
www.forgotten-ny.com
"Our SubTalk field trip ended incongruously back at the CTA Blue Line terminal, when I got seperated from John and Bill when I had to go back to the farecard vending machine and add some cash to my farecard. The machine took my $10 bill but never added any value to the card, so I spent the next 10-15 minutes flagging down the station agent and filling out a form before he could give me a replacement farecard. Arrrgh! By the time I got down to the platform level, John and Bill were gone. John had planned to get off at Cumberland anyway to head home, and as far as I know Bill had some friends to meet here in town before heading back home tomorrow."
I saw you head back to the Transit Card machines to add money to your card, so I stopped to get a soda out of the vending machine. But I didn't know about the machine eating your money, and thought you had finished your Transit Card business and gotten past me to the train while the soda machine was refusing my dollar. :^)
"John and Bill: I didn't get a chance to say it in person, but I enjoyed meeting you guys and I hope we can have another one of
these field trips again next summer. It was a fun weekend!"
Ditto 100 times over! Thanks, Dave, for putting together a great trip!
Dave,
I thought that maybe you went back for another session in the reincarnation tunnel!! lol!
I was on the platform when I saw John at the vending machine. Another O'Hare bound train arrived and disgorged a full load of pax on the plat and escalators. So I waited off to the side until the wave passed, as another train left for the city. Waited a bit more and then took a seat on the next train out, just as John arrived with his soda. John checked the other cars while we waited. I had some people who were by now waiting for me, so we left on the next train out. John got off at Cumberland to get his car; I rode into the Loop, transferred to the Red Line to Howard, finally to the Purple line to Linden.
Tuesday morning found me at the Art Institute (free on Tuesdays). Later, I took the Orange line to Midway, toured the scenic Midway parking structure, and caught my flight at Gate C5 (in the old 1960s section of the terminal). What a mess! The gate had the capacity of a commuter airliner, not a 737 that was full. It was standing room only, all the way down to Gate 4A.
Dave, thanks for an enjoyable weekend!
Nice job of planning everything. Good to meet Bob, John, Ed, Dave S., Irwin, Kevin - it was one great group!
caught my flight at Gate C5 (in the old 1960s section of the terminal)
Bill -
You're being generous here. The old Midway terminal building dates back to the beginning of commerical air traffic in Chicago (1930s or 40s). It was already old and grubby in the 60s.
Enjoyed meeting you.
-- Ed Sachs
Do they still play that same music in that reincarnation tunnel that I remember from 1997 and 1998? It sounds like a continuous dominant seventh C chord or a C whole tone scale.
Yes, they do. Along with the ever-repeating "The moving walkway is now ending. Please look down." Except this time it's a male voice. Up until sometime recently it was a female voice.
-- David
Chicago, IL
The walkways at Denver International Airport have similar announcements: "Caution: this walkway is nearing its end. Please watch your step. Thank you." Only it sounds so mushy, it's difficult to understand.
I was looking through the r36 pictures, and i found 2 pictures of CB12, And 1 of CB15, why were these cars renumbered?
These were "Brake Test" numbers, they used them back in 1969-70 when they were testing brake equipment; done so to differentiate them from the rest of the fleet. R36 Mainline cars had them and so did some of the R40M when first delivered. They used numbers like "ASxx" and "CBxx". Confusing? Yes. You can see some of the R40M wearing these numbers in the R40 photo section.
wayne
Well, it's there, graded and there are rails today. No houses need be taken to build it, and few businesses... to build the stations I'm not so sure, but if they're built underground as on the N line in Bensonhurst, that could be minimised.
Having walked much of its length as a teenager, I think that it could be done.
Why NOT build a Subway there, from the N/RR line to JFK?
Or would an Expressway be better, as Robert Moses has suggested?
Or just leave the right-of-way alone and practically unused, the province of stray dogs, junkies, and a huge land speculation investment for the LIRR?
Probably the biggest technical problem is similar to that of using Lower Montauk--carving out two subway tracks on a right-of-way of varying width while maintaining freight service. The Bay Ridge Line is much more important to the region as a freight link than a passenger line.
From a passenger perspective, you need to ask who would be served and why would they want to use it. The most likely hook up would take people west from the Canarsie Line--that link has the capacity for additional trains, and an easy connection could be made. But if this service went out to Bay Ridge, you have to ask who would use it in preference to more direct service by the N, W, F, Q and IRT services.
But if this service went out to Bay Ridge, you have to ask who would use it in preference to more direct service by the N, W, F, Q and IRT services.
What IRTs go to Bay Ridge?
No IRT's go to Bay Ridge
IRT doesn't go to Bay Ridge. I was naming the lines that serve the same area as the Bay Ridge branch and asking why people would use a Bay Ridge line service in preference to existing services.
A passenger line along the Bay Ridge would enable Sunset Park/Bay Ridge customers to get to points east in Brooklyn w/o the round-about travel plans via Coney Island or Downtown Brooklyn (Atlantic/Pacific transfer).
BUT at this point the Bay Ridge Line is leased to New York & Atlantic Railway which renders any plans for passenger service moot for a least until their lease is up.
BMTman
> at this point the Bay Ridge Line is leased to New York &
> Atlantic Railway which renders any plans for passenger
> service moot for a least until their lease is up.
Eminent domain.
That's how the government takes away people's houses so that developers can build new mega-stores like Ikea.
As far as NY & Atlantic, I don't feel sorry for them and their one or two freight trains a day.
Hogging that prime real estate is practically criminal, which I think about every time I'm stuck in stopped traffic trying to get to JFK, when all I SHOULD have to do is walk down the block to the Bedford Avenue/Brooklyn College station that SHOULD be there... plotz and read a book.
"As far as NY & Atlantic, I don't feel sorry for them and their one or two freight trains a day. "
That could change if and when a cross harbor freight tunnel is built. Sending freight under a cross harbor tunnel instead of sending them up to Selkirk and back down would greatly increase freight traffic form the Bay Ridge Branch.
Now will I live to see the construction of this tunnel ?
Bill "Newkirk"
It could happen if CSX and Norfolk Southern, the two lines who would benefit the most from the tunnel if it were to be built, could be convinced to do the construction and not wait for the states of NY or NJ to do it for them. What do you think about that one? They could probably get it built in less time, under budget and in better shape than if the Port Authority were to do it. Guess what? No graft, either. If the need is there, it will get built. The right eyes must get opened first.
The tunnel will have to go hand-in-hand with a deepwater port on the Brooklyn shoreline for either of the rail companies to see a financial justification for the tunnel -- as it stands right now, there's a market for moving freight into New York, but because manufacturing in the city has droppped so much over the last 40 years, there's nothing to send the other way but empty boxcars (other than through trains from New England using the Hell Gate connection and traveling through East New York). A deepwater port would mean items imported from Europe, South America, Africa and other places could dock in Brooklyn and unload goods to be shipped out to the rest of the country.
Even so, the railroad companies will probably be looking for state/federal cash before then invest their own $$$ in the new crossing. With the reactivation of the CSX bridge to Staten Island, New York could eliminate New Jersey as a partner and go it alone with CSX and/or Norfolk Southern on a Narrows Tunnel, though that could create a fight within the Port Authority over using its funds, if New Jersey thought it would gain less from a S.I.-Elizabeth crossing compared to a Brooklyn-Bayonne connection.
The tunnel will have to go hand-in-hand with a deepwater port on the Brooklyn shoreline for either of the rail companies to see a financial justification for the tunnel -- as it stands right now, there's a market for moving freight into New York, but because manufacturing in the city has droppped so much over the last 40 years, there's nothing to send the other way but empty boxcars (other than through trains from New England using the Hell Gate connection and traveling through East New York). A deepwater port would mean items imported from Europe, South America, Africa and other places could dock in Brooklyn and unload goods to be shipped out to the rest of the country.
It's doubtful that the Port Authority or any of the shipping lines would be particularly interested in a major expansion of the Brooklyn seaport facilities given the huge investment in Port Newark and Elizabeth. In addition, Brooklyn's existing container facilities are probably operating at or near their maximum capacity given the shortage of landside storage and handling space. Take a look sometime at the amount of space occupied by the Newark and Elizabeth container facilities. Adding even one-quarter of that amount to the Brooklyn facilities would gobble up many commercial and residential blocks. The public outcry would be staggering.
Even so, the railroad companies will probably be looking for state/federal cash before then invest their own $$$ in the new crossing. With the reactivation of the CSX bridge to Staten Island, New York could eliminate New Jersey as a partner and go it alone with CSX and/or Norfolk Southern on a Narrows Tunnel, though that could create a fight within the Port Authority over using its funds, if New Jersey thought it would gain less from a S.I.-Elizabeth crossing compared to a Brooklyn-Bayonne connection.
If anything, reactivating the bridge to Staten Island makes a cross-harbor tunnel even less likely, as it provides rail access to the Howland Hook seaport. A Brooklyn seaport's raison d'etre is now less acute.
The advantage Brooklyn supposedly has over the other sites is its proximity to the Hudson-New York Bay deep channel, which the next generation of "super cargo ships" is supposed to require. When Jerold Nadler and others began making the case for the Brooklyn site, the rationale was that the western shore of the Bay and the Arthur Kill couldn't handle the larger ships because of their water depth, and that New York would lose container business to Norfolk-Newport News-Hampton Roads and to Charleston, S.C. for shipments from the Atlantic Coast to other parts of the country. As for the shorline space needed, that would probably depend on whether or not enough people with power stood to benefit from the project to offset the NIMBY complaints that would result. Certainly, CSX and Norfolk Southern don't have enough infuence by themselves to beat back the NIMBY charge they would encounter in west-central Brooklyn.
New York does have better east-west rail access than those two ports --- if you can run a rail line across from N.J. to Brooklyn, but how much of the other benefits would come to pass if a rail link was built, or it the cost of such a line would be cheaper than just dredging the western part of Upper New York Bay, I don't know. But certainly the people in New Jersey would demand that option be looked at first before any Port Authority money was committed to the Brooklyn tunnel plan.
The advantage Brooklyn supposedly has over the other sites is its proximity to the Hudson-New York Bay deep channel, which the next generation of "super cargo ships" is supposed to require. When Jerold Nadler and others began making the case for the Brooklyn site, the rationale was that the western shore of the Bay and the Arthur Kill couldn't handle the larger ships because of their water depth, and that New York would lose container business to Norfolk-Newport News-Hampton Roads and to Charleston, S.C. for shipments from the Atlantic Coast to other parts of the country. As for the shorline space needed, that would probably depend on whether or not enough people with power stood to benefit from the project to offset the NIMBY complaints that would result. Certainly, CSX and Norfolk Southern don't have enough infuence by themselves to beat back the NIMBY charge they would encounter in west-central Brooklyn.
New York does have better east-west rail access than those two ports --- if you can run a rail line across from N.J. to Brooklyn, but how much of the other benefits would come to pass if a rail link was built, or it the cost of such a line would be cheaper than just dredging the western part of Upper New York Bay, I don't know. But certainly the people in New Jersey would demand that option be looked at first before any Port Authority money was committed to the Brooklyn tunnel plan.
A huge, multi-year dredging project has begun - in fact, that's part of the Port Authority's investment that makes it less likely to back a cross-harbor tunnel.
Hampton Roads and especially Charleston aren't significant competitors for NY-NJ's port business. Maersk-Sea Land, which you might describe as the Wal-Mart of the shipping trade, is fully committed to NY-NJ. If any Atlantic seaport can be described as a tough competitor, it's Halifax. Canadian National's relatively new Sarnia-Port Huron rail tunnel has made Halifax significantly closer to the U.S. Midwest.
Even so, it's hard to foresee any major challenges to NY-NJ's East Coast dominance. Business is likely to increase quite a bit as more and more carriers use the westbound Suez Canal route between Asia and North America.
>> If anything, reactivating the bridge to Staten Island makes a cross-harbor tunnel even less likely, as it provides rail access to the Howland Hook seaport. A Brooklyn seaport's raison d'etre is now less acute. <<
Interestingly, the ONE THING the PA was chartered to do back in 19...33(?), was (drumroll) -- build a cross-harbor rail tunnel.
That's it. That's all the PA was ever created to do. It's metastasized and become things it was never supposed to be. But it has never accomplished its stated reason for existence in the first place.
Any expansion of Brooklyn's seaport facilities would virtually certainly be as a RO-RO facility. Making it into a large-scale container port would require bulldozing several neighborhhods, according to my ex-PA employee/lobbyist wife.
I'd always heard the main thrust of the cross-harbor rail tunnel was to get decrease the number of big rigs using the Hudson & East River crossings and (to some extent) the city streets.
=Rednoise
(NewQirQ)
I don't think that is necessarily true. I have spoken with NY&A about this very concept and they said that I should speak with CSX first (to get to the Bronx and points north) about that portion of the service because that would be harder to do than their own line. The main issue would be the pipeline that runs to JFK on prt of the right-of-way.
CSX said that an additional track needed to be installed next to their track between the Hell's Gate Bridge and Fresh Pond. They did not seem as evil as one would expect them to be. I guess Amtrak just brings the worse out in them.
>>> Well, it's there, graded and there are rails today. No houses need be taken to build it, and few businesses... to build the stations I'm not so sure, but if they're built underground as on the N line in Bensonhurst, that could be minimised. <<<
Wouldn't it have been a little more courteous to indicate in your post what you are talking about? What is where, graded and with rails? Those of us geographically removed from New York should not have to dig up maps to try to understand your post. Presumably from your last sentence this is an unused LIRR ROW. Where is it?
Tom
He's talking about the LIRR Bay Ridge branch, which runs from the shore at 65th Street in Brooklyn, parallels the Sea Beach (N) Line at 8th Avenue, then swings across Brooklyn in an arc from west to east. It crosses the W line near its junction with the N line, the F and Q lines near Avenue H and intersects amd parallels the L line near the IRT Livonia Avenue Line.
It was originally primarily an excursion line with a branch to Manhattan Beach (near Brighton Beach) and was a heavy electric freight line. It fell into disuse because of the necessity to carfloat freight to New Jersey from Bay Ridge, a once common practice. It is key to revival of freight service through New York City.
The Bay Ridge LIRR line goes east from the water. It rins along the N line then it goes northward. Runs along side the L line from New Lots Ave to Atlantic Ave. How would it go to JFK from there? Hook up with the Montauk LIRR line and switch off on the Rockaway Beach LIRR line?
Actually, it would have to go to ENY and build a new ramp to connect the LIRR Atlantic Ave line, then run to beyond the old Woodhaven Station to a ramp and spur that is already in existance and build new track to connect into the current A line beyond the Fulton Elevated.
Thanks, Neil, that's exactly it!
All it takes is to look at a Hagstrom NYC 5 Borough Atlas with some time to find out. I know the areas of the city from rags to roots, so it is not hard for me to find out. By the way there was no problem at all and I can be of help at anytime.
The former connection was right before the old Woodhaven Station. The connection is now gone. The portal has been sealed and the right of way has been filled in. A school bus company now resides in the area of the former connection.
There will be construction for the 2/5 extension to the LIRR ROW and built a new layup track on it.
I heard yesterday from a train crew that there were suppposed to be 4 redbirds to help with the extra service on the 1 this weekend since that they're going to Bklyn.
You might be right. If the 1 is going to Brooklyn it'll need additional cars.
Semi-Right, it's not using the redbirds I don't think, its using 10 car livonia cars...
I see already that the Livonia cars are 10 cars instead of 9. So that adds to the 240th Street cars as well. Will keep you guys posted.
What I saw on www.quuxuum.org/joekoerner, the TA's proposed plans is to use the R-142 cars on the #3 as well as the #2, so that maybe the start of things.
11 cars are back on the 7 line. After a three week stint, the R33s was back in place starting with 00:25a out of Main St this morning.
This is fine but when are the R62As coming over to the 7? I hope soon.
#1856 #7 Flushing Local
......hold your breath ..........!! .......................lol!!
Going on the supposed plan for stocking the E. 180th St. yard with the R-142s for the 2/5 first, it's doubtful you'll see any of the R-62As on the Flushing Line until those two lines get their cars. After that, when the R-142s destined for the No. 3 train begin arriving, that will free up the current cars on that line for their move to Corona.
That's right. I noticed every Flushing line train to be 11 cars today.
On our route from Times Square to 40 St., my mom, brother and I boarded R36 #9334.
NOTE: This car was completely with FAN air. NO A/C. And the four ceiling fans were covered with a different design, rather than plain circular grills for the covering. Anyone know what happened?
: )
Railfan Pete.
Sure I know what happened -- that's not an R-36! That's a single-unit R-33, and none of them ever had air-conditioning. The single-unit R-33s were the cars removed from the 11-car #7 trains to make them 10-car trains, and now they're back.
David
mmmmm... I had better clear up my clarification about R33's and R36's.
But didn't the neighboring Redbird cars around #9334 already get scrapped? (in the #932-, or,,,)
Railfan Pete.
As far as I know only single car to be retired was 9321 which got sunk.
And 9306, which has been in the Transit Museum for 25 years.
David
My summer absence is over (for a couple of days). Please do not expect regular postings for a few more weeks because I still have some trips I am going on. I will post about my trip to NYC as soon as I find time.
Welcome!
E_DOG
This is subway related & is tied into what video camera U feel is best for shooting the subway / rail transit systems etc...
I own a few sony camcorders the tr818 & the 1999-2000 & tr 416 with 0.4. natural low light lux shooting ( my favorite )...
The sony camcorders boast of having the " Nigntshot " feature which looks like somehting out of the blair witch project !!!....lol !!!
However maybe some of U out there may own this JVC model with the special NIGHT ALIVE feature .... How does it work ??
Did you like it ?? Also i would like to later ask a question about your digital still camera if U own one ....
I would be glad to hear from anyone on this forum who owns or has seen the NIGHT ALIVE feature on any JVC camorder !!.........lol !!
& of cource { on topic } how did it work in the subway? ...................lol!!!
This is subway related & is tied into what video camera U feel is best for shooting the subway / rail transit systems etc...
I own a few sony camcorders the tr818 & the 1999-2000 & tr 416 with 0.4. natural low light lux shooting ( my favorite )...
The sony camcorders boast of having the " Nigntshot " feature which looks like somehting out of the blair witch project !!!....lol !!!
However maybe some of U out there may own this JVC model with the special NIGHT ALIVE feature .... How does it work ??
Did you like it ?? Also i would like to later ask a question about your digital still camera if U own one ....
I would be glad to hear from anyone on this forum who owns or has seen the NIGHT ALIVE feature on any JVC camorder
!!.........lol !!
& of cource { on topic } how did it work in the subway? ...................lol!!!
here's a weird one. while on a manhattan-bound R at Grand Ave, i saw what appeared to be a train of r32's stopped short in the station, like a "C" train. what it turns out to be, is r32's #3445 and 3468 towing IR-719 and OR-719. there's a mixed consist for you, BMT 32's running with IRT 22's.
I was wondering if the folks at NJTransit plan on changing the Newark Subway name to something else that is more appropiate since the system is now expanding and since it is really not a subway system at all, in technical terms.
I don't think so- the new stations at Orange and Branch-Brook Park have the words "City Subway" set in the peaks of their cast-iron roofs.
wayne
I think that a good thing. I'm glad Bombardier or Kawasaki didn't get it because I didn't like my one ride on a R-142 and I'm glad breda didn't get it cuz they only build junk.
From http://members.aol.com/netransit/
On September 6 2001, the MBTA Board of Directors will vote on a $172 million contract with Siemens Transportation to supply 94 new Blue Line cars to replace the present fleet.The first pair is expected to arrive in late 2003 with regular deliveries in 2004/2005. The new cars will have stainless-steel carbodies, A.C propulsion, and will be the same size as the present fleet. Siemens will also dismantle and reassemble two existing Blue Line cars to determine if it is feasible to rebuild 24 for Orange Line service. Cars 0652/0653 will be sent to Hornell NY for the work in November and will return to Blue Line service after they are reassembled. If it is feasible, 24 cars will be retained and rebuilt for Orange Line service after the new Blue Line fleet arrives. If it is determined that the cars are too corroded to be feasibly rebuilt, 18 new cars will be ordered for the Orange Line.
From a Write to the Top letter posted to the Web
The contract for the 94 new Blue Line cars has not yet been awarded, but will be presented to the Board of Directors at its' next meeting. The schedule in the contract provides for the delivery of a pilot pair on December 1, 2003. These cars will undergo a four month testing period. Assuming that all goes well with the testing, delivery of remaining cars will commence on April 1, 2004, and be completed by July 10, 2005. Sorry, but there is no place to view the cars (yet). I can tell you that the length and width are relatively the same as the existing cars. An additional set of doors has been added to facilitate boarding/egress. Width of door openings has increased six inches, and seat width has been slightly increased as well. An additional change, is the inclusion of two dedicated wheelchair areas. Six car train service will commence when all of the cars have been accepted.
It's time for new rolling stock on both Orange and Blue Lines on MBTA. Evidently the Orange Line is also short on rolling stock. This contract is good news...
The orange line stock is only barely 20 years old, the prototype deliveries being 1979 and the rest in 1980 and 81. MBTA shouldn't be allowed new cars if they don't maintain the ones they got properly. There are lots of stock which are older and still in good service with other transit agencies.
This is to supplement the existing fleet, not replace it. More service!
I understood that, but was surprised by LOexcie's disclosure that the trains are only 20 years old. For 20 year old trains, the Orange line's cars look and feel older.
I was told this about the orange line cars by a friend -- would anyone want to correct him? I'm not entirely sure myself.
Lexcie
Remember the Forest Hill extension of the orange line? I seem to remember that was when new stock was ordered for the orange line. Maybe I should check the NYCsubway pages...
You might consider joining the Boston Street Railway Association. They have meetings the first Saturday evening of the month 7:30pm, Mason's Hall, Boston - next to Boylston St. Station), and put out a fine publication "Rollsign." Rollsign's January issue is traditionally dedicated to the MBTA Vehicle Inventory. According to the 2001 volume, the current Orange Line cars were built in 1979-1981 by Hawker-Siddeley.
BSRA can be reached at 781-433-7015; P.O. Box 181077, Boston, MA 02118-1037.
[Oh great! Someting else to do on September 8. I think 207 St. tour, Hoboken, and a V ride will win out this time.]
Is that why they vaguely resemble some of the PATH rolling stock?
Exactly. That's what it says on the Orange line page.
Uh.... not more service. The Orange is maxed for service frequency by the northside extended block signalling. No additional service trains until the the northside goes ATO.
But did you guys know that at rush hour (except summer), there's no spare trainset and there hasn't been in years. This explains the condition of the cars. I think you would find a higher mileage on these 20 year old cars than those on other systems. The reason for acquiring 3 extra trainsets is that at 20 years, the shop needs more time with these oldies. Without these extras, the future will see dropped runs because of equipment problems.
There are provisions to turn Orange Line trains at Sullivan Sq. If the extended block is north of that, then they could increase service frequency south of that station.
Not Sullivan.... Wellington. Does you no good. The extended blocks are from State/Haymarket (depending on direction), and the ruling block is from North Station to Community College. Often shows as a delay at North Station going north.
Thanks for clarifying that, Dick. I heard somewhere a while back that there would be an increase off-peak, which would allow more cars to go for the shop time to which you refer.
There are off peak times that could definately use some runs. The problem I see is the lop-sided nature of the customer base. Saturdat and Sunday morns, the north side is packed and the south is light. So they split the difference and make the folks from Sullivan Square stand!
BTW, the Project Manager says you'll have to do the Canal St Marathon at least 'til the end of the month. Sorry!
Hoo boy! The opening of the north entrance to the Orange Line station at North Station has been delayed from May... to June... to July... to August... to September... and now? Fortunately, I take the Green Line from North Station, so I don't have to do the long walk. But hopefully this will reduce some of the pressure one the single entrance to the Green Line (one staircase, for both up and down passenger traffic to the el!).
But did you guys know that at rush hour (except summer), there's no spare trainset and there hasn't been in years.
I find that hard to believe. According to the National Transportion Database for 1999, the MBTA heavy rail operations are running 28% spares and the average fleet age is 16.9 years. If they are running 0% spares on the Orange Line, then they have to have a lot of excess cars on the Red or Blue lines.
By comparison the NYCT average fleet age was 26.6 years and they were running at 18% spares. Also the MBTA light rail operations were running at 9% spares with an average fleet age of 16.1 years.
Lack of maintenance in NYCT? Probably not, the average # of labor maintenance and inspection hours per car was 813 for NYCTA and 834 for the MBTA. MBTA light rail required 1855 hours per car.
That's interesting. It's amazing what the statistics don't tell you. The Orange Line has everything out except 4 cars in the afternoon rush. The Blue schedules everything except 6 cars, but always sends a RAD (Run As Directed)(4 car) in the morning if equipment and man-power is available.
I'd guess the numbers you quoted show availability across a 20 hour period and don't show the crush at rush. It's also hard to know if the database has scheduled trains or actual runs.
Does the light rail shop time include the Type 8's. There's always someone looking at them! That's all they're good for!!
I'd guess the numbers you quoted show availability across a 20 hour period and don't show the crush at rush.
No, it is difference of the total number of cars available for service and the number of cars required for maximum service divided by the number of cars required for maximum service.
It's also hard to know if the database has scheduled trains or
actual runs.
The data is supplied by the MBTA to the feds. Anbody's guess.
Does the light rail shop time include the Type 8's.
It's 1999 data, so I'd guess not.
>>> MBTA shouldn't be allowed new cars if they don't maintain the ones they got properly <<<
Lexie;
You seem to have an unhealthy urge to have some central government exercise control over local government. Because the MBTA did not properly maintain their current fleet, you suggest the people of Boston be punished by not allowing the MBTA purchase new equipment. The usual American way is to purchase the necessary new equipment, and if it found that the MBTA failed to maintain the current stock, have the local voters turn the rascals out of office through their elected politicians. If the elected politicians are in bed with the MBTA board, it is possible to get change through the courts as was done in Los Angeles.
Tom
FTA has a policy whereby if equipment are scrapped before their 30 year expected lifespan, there is a Federal clawback against the Federal contribution of the cost of cars when they were new: principal plus interest. In my humble view, this is a good system and encourages good maintenance practices.
I acknowledge that I am implicitly suggesting that the central govt should exercise control over the local govt. Although, this is not generally desirable, it guarentees that wherever an American goes, he or she would be able to rely on the same safety net and similar values -- for example, as we all know FRA requires horns to be blown at all grade crossings. By the same token I should argue that Federal government should conserve its resources and disallow bad maintenance practices in one region from depriving other more deserving regions (e.g. Cleveland) of funding.
You seem to be of the impression that democracy and the justice system would actually solve the social problems that we just talked about -- i.e. the waste of resources by a public body or a region. If you were to turn up the setting on your cynicity dial, you would soon see the many flaws in your argument -- which is basically based on the assumption in the "good citizen" class you got taught all of x number of years ago.
Sorry to drag in the philosophical element, but when someone tries to convince me that the current system of democracy will actually solve all our transit problems, I have to at least outline my counter-argument.
Lexcie
There is nothing inherently wrong with demanding accountability for federal dollars spent. While Lexcie's precise statement may appear a bit strident, the feds demanding an accounting of how federal money got spent in Boston is very sound. Similarly, a city utilizing state money should be accountable to the state for how that money is spent. This is entirely proper. It is not antidemocratic, because all levels of govt contain a mix of elected and appointed officers, and all levels of govt are subject to elections by voters.
>>> There is nothing inherently wrong with demanding accountability for federal dollars spent. <<<
I certainly agree with that, and would also agree with a report being issued bringing to light any failures of local officials leading to premature replacement of equipment, but the idea of the federal government forbidding the replacement of equipment, even at local expense, is extreme.
Tom
I agree with you there.
If you compare the condition of NYC's subway cars of the same or older vintage, they are (from a rider's perspective; Selkirk, Train Dude and others may have another take on it) in better shape than the Hawker-Siddeleys on the Orange Line. I've ridden both a lot. Door chimes sound weird, doors close very slowly, climate control not quite as nice on the Orange Line.
Of course, NYCT is only now catching up with the newer Red Line fleet. I wonder when MBTA will retire the rest of the Red Line's Pullman-Standards and buy more of the Bombardiers...
If the "T" saw the amount of problems Bombardier had in building over around 700 cars for NYCT (a problem which has just been fixed), then they would think twice before contracting with Bombardier. That is, even if the "T" currently had 200-300 Bombardier products rolling around on the Red Line. (Correct me if my numbers are off)
There are just 86 Bombarider cars (#01800 to 01885) on the Red Line in Boston. After initial problems, they have been a good fleet (Right, David Cole?).
in general Bombardier is an excellent rolling stock manufacturer. thats why they are the leaders in rolling stock right now. you go to other cities and contries (montreal, Toronto, London, Seoul, Kuala Lumpur, Ankara, China) you see that they don't cause any problems even from the beginning of their service. as for the problems we have here in the u.s with them it is due to the fault of hiring inexperienced manufacturers and gov't politics. nobody sees that. however, besides the small problems that this company has, people overate these problems and make them sound big. these problems come along as apart of breaking in new rolling stock but, of course nobody in here will never understand that or don't want to. you know what? all these companies that make trains are never reliable. they will bring us faulty equipment that will have to be worked out to run safely in their systems. so basically when people talk about problems with cars and how a manufacturer makes their cars, it is basically nothing special in this field of manufacturing goods. problems were apart of it since day one.
After initial problems, they have been a good fleet
not including the seats.
Well Tom, you are obviously one of those lobbyist people who misconstrue other people's statements. I said "MBTA should not be allowed new cars", I did not state that they should be forbidden by law to purchase new cars by the central government.
>>> I said "MBTA should not be allowed new cars", I did not state that they should be forbidden by law to purchase new cars by the central government. <<<
Sorry if I misinterpreted your post. But who beside a central government could have the power to prevent the MBTA from obtaining new cars, and saying the "MBTA should not be allowed new cars" certainly implies positive action by someone to prevent acquisition.
Tom
Well, actually if you think about it, the US Department of Transportation subsidizes mass transit in a NUMBER of locales, and in some, the funding from the federal level is a mighty substantial sum. I could see Tom DeLay getting into a hissy fit and cutting them off. The high-handed swine (no offense, "Pigs") in DC have arbitrarily bitch-slapped localities for less.
And here in NYS, our own Paturkey (R) and Senator Joe Bruno (R, Troy) have STILL not produced a budget for the state, now FIVE months past due) which may well result in the subways being shut down for lack of money (school taxes statewide are about to be doubled because they haven't budgetted for that either at the state level, so the localities now must tax up the difference) ... funny how here in the states, we have our political "kings" playing central government by screwing everybody too ...
So even if Lexcie's experience may be Britain (after all, George W Bush, our appointed King, is a descendent of the WINDSOR FAMILY who we overthrew in a revolutionary war) there are too many ironies at play here. Anything's possible ...
Well said! As a proud Piggo, I only take offense when you compare a pig to a politician (at least a Republican). What did a pig ever do to be brought down to that level? I feel the same way about cops, but thats another story.....
Piggo12
Hmm, so there are more people out there who are aware of the police force's inherient corruptness than a selected bunch of social psychologists. You know something? I remember hearing a thesis as an undergraduate, which stipulated that it is simply a matter of time before police becomes corrupt because of their exclusive position in society; in that the strongest constraint against a subsociety -the shun- does not function in this case; you cannot shun the police force. I forget the precise argument but I found it difficult to fault at the time. Politicians are a little easier to deal with socially -- they can be shunned, and they can be voted out of office. Not the police force.
I think the number of such people has grown tremendously since the Abner Louima, Patrick Dorismond and Amadu Dialo incidents, plus the numerous DWI tragedies in the news. Many people, (particularly whites and even minority groups of upper middle class and above status) always thought the police were 100% wonderful people who are above reproach. While I admit I personally have had run-ins with the police (some my fault, an equal number not) and in general do not care for them, I still feel a majority are good people, but when these horrible incidents hit the press, police apologists say the bad apples are .1% of one percent; I personally feel the bad apples are more like 15-20% and an many more, while not being corrupt or overtly racist themselves, do utilize racial profiling (both a white guy in a minority neighborhood will be questioned without any probibly cause just as fast as black man will in a white neighborhood) and impose there view of the world on the people they police. And let's face it, the vast majority of the police force (even in NYC) is white and male). I am a white male and I can see this, while I have had run in's with the police, I have also been told to get lost while a black man next to me was taken into custody.
I do feel the tragedies I mentioned above have opened many eyes, and I think the free pass the cops in the Dorismond and Dialo got opened just as many more. How can you fire 41 bullets at a man before deciding he is unarmed and not a threat? I think the vast majority of fair minded people everywhere where at least given reason to reflect on our society after those events.
I still feel a majority are good people, but when these horrible incidents hit the press, police apologists say the bad apples are .1% of one percent;
To me, racial profiling by the police is simply a reflection of racial profiling in our society. Personally, I do not see that as a problem, it is simply a social phenomenon. If nobody does racial profiling at all, then there would not be any policeman who do so, simply because police force is only a subsociety of our society. They are not exactly TRAINED to profile people based on their race. Now, you tell me, if some weird looking person with green skin came up to you and asked you for a dime, wouldn't you be a bit more suspicious than if a person with the same colour of skin as you did exactly the same thing? For a start you would be wondering why Martians would speak perfect English. Racial profiling is simply a natural phenomenon -- an instinctive fear against the unknown. In some societies however, this instinct is unfortunately reinforced by isolated incidents.
I worry less about racial profiling than the police's misuse of their power -- by this I mean explicitly misuse their power. Not that I've had any run ins with any police officer (since I am aware of their power and I avoid them at all costs), but if you'd know anyone who is actually a cop you would see their mentality and attitudes are a grave cause for concern. The bottom line is, the police force protect the police force, because they all share the same power and stand to lose it if they don't protect themselves. So if you said to Officer B that Officer A tried to rob you of your belongings, who is Officer B going to believe?
Lexcie
Your are once again right on. While I do not know any police officer personally (and I don't intend to) I have had the displeasure of dealing with them. Or more to the point, watch them (on more than one occasion) hit on my wife right in front of me, when she told them she was married and not interested, they would not stop. One time a cop followed her into the ladies room at the Port Authority Bus Terminal. As you say, who are you going to call when a cop misbehaves????? Another cop???? Why bother. They will cover for each other to the end. The see things as us (them) against the world. When in reality, they have the guns and the tin badges.
Today I use your philosophy, avoid them at ALL costs. They self rightously arrest people for DWI (and I agree, if you drive drunk you deserve what you get) but they don't think twice about getting loaded and driving off to their suburban homes at 90 MPH. If they get stopped, they pull out the badge and the mutual admiration society goes into session.
Piggo
As I said in my original message, I find it reprehensible for someone to call a cop a pig, I never heard of a pig sodomizing another pig.
Uh, what does this have to do with Siemens or the MBTA? CHANGE THE TOPIC PLEASE!
I wonder why they didn't go with Breda!
Type 8 derailments thats why the MBTA didn't go with breda.
Finally the MBTA is doing a good thing. If they had not I would live in Washington D.C.
"i'm glad Bombardier and Kawasaki didn't get it because i didn't like my one ride on the R-142" Look out because statistics show that Siemens isn't sutch o hot item either. they have many unsuccesses from here to germany
I think that a good thing. I'm glad Bombardier or Kawasaki didn't get it because I didn't like my one ride on a R-142 and I'm glad breda didn't get it cuz they only build junk.
From http://members.aol.com/netransit/
On September 6 2001, the MBTA Board of Directors will vote on a $172 million contract with Siemens Transportation to supply 94 new Blue Line cars to replace the present fleet.The first pair is expected to arrive in late 2003 with regular deliveries in 2004/2005. The new cars will have stainless-steel carbodies, A.C propulsion, and will be the same size as the present fleet. Siemens will also dismantle and reassemble two existing Blue Line cars to determine if it is feasible to rebuild 24 for Orange Line service. Cars 0652/0653 will be sent to Hornell NY for the work in November and will return to Blue Line service after they are reassembled. If it is feasible, 24 cars will be retained and rebuilt for Orange Line service after the new Blue Line fleet arrives. If it is determined that the cars are too corroded to be feasibly rebuilt, 18 new cars will be ordered for the Orange Line.
From a Write to the Top letter posted to the Web
The contract for the 94 new Blue Line cars has not yet been awarded, but will be presented to the Board of Directors at its' next meeting. The schedule in the contract provides for the delivery of a pilot pair on December 1, 2003. These cars will undergo a four month testing period. Assuming that all goes well with the testing, delivery of remaining cars will commence on April 1, 2004, and be completed by July 10, 2005. Sorry, but there is no place to view the cars (yet). I can tell you that the length and width are relatively the same as the existing cars. An additional set of doors has been added to facilitate boarding/egress. Width of door openings has increased six inches, and seat width has been slightly increased as well. An additional change, is the inclusion of two dedicated wheelchair areas. Six car train service will commence when all of the cars have been accepted.
Questions for transit buffs, baseball fans, and/or Brooklyn partisans.
The Transit Museum at GCT has a show on about baseball and transit. They talk about the many subway series of course, but also how the pre-war ballparks were built with transit in mind. They repeat the often told story about how the nickname for the Brooklyn Dodgers (that eventually became official) came while the team was at "Eastern Park". There were two trolley lines next to the field and fans would have to dodge them to get to the game.
1) So where was Eastern Park?
The map at the GCT exhibition is vague. East New York-ish. I went to the bookstore to find the book the Cooperstown people (co-curators) refer to. Same vague map in the book. So I look in other books while I'm there. A Brooklyn general history book had a reproduction of an old baseball program that identified the location of Eastern Park as Eastern Parkway and Vesta Avenue. Vesta Avenue is apparently Van Sinderen Avenue today. Not much help. The two streets don't appear to cross. Maybe the streets had a different alignment at the time (1891-1897).
2) Is this really the place where the nickname got attached anyway?
This part of Brooklyn in the 1890s probably called for more TRAIN dodging than trolley dodging. The Bay Ridge and LIRR main line (at the time) are in the neighborhood. This was before the Brooklyn Grade Crossing Project of 1903-1918, when the Bay Ridge tracks were right on Vesta Avenue. On the other hand, there sure were trolleys at Washington Park, where the Dodgers were before and after Eastern Park (all pre-Ebbetts). One book says the cost of moving back to a new Washington Park in the Gowanus area was even partially paid for by two of the trolley lines. Several of the books also say "Trolley Dodger" was a derisive term that New Yorkers (i.e. Manhattanites pre-merger) had for Brooklynites in general.
Given how treasured the memories of the Dodgers are, and how very New York (or "Brooklyn") the team's transit-themed name is, it is strange how little definitive information there is on the subject.
I'm not sure where the Transit Museum's sources come fron.
The Brooklyn Superbas played their last game in Washington Park October 5, 1912. The Dodgers played their first game in Ebbets Field April 9, 1913. That doesn't leave much room for an "Eastern Park" which I have never heard of as a professional ball park.
I was brought up in Brooklyn while the Dodgers were still playing. My dad, an avid fan, was born in Brooklyn 1908. He knew of Washington Park and talked often of Ebbets Field but I never heard anything of Eastern Park.
He told me (and all the newspapers said when the Dodgers were leaving) that the term "Trolley Dodgers" reflected the extreme trolley traffic in the vicinity of Ebbets Field, although it could easily have been descriptive of Brooklyn in general.
The official picture for the 1911 Brooklyn Trolley Dodgers
Wow, Crosswinds has been around since 1911 when it put its name on the Dodgers logo!
Heh. Went and tried to fetch the picture by pasting it into the address bar and got a nasty "due to abuse" message. Someone needs to shop for another site, since these guys seem to be wanting to go the way of excite@home. NASDAQ lemmings, methinks ...
Very interested, lost interest trying to negotiate the site.
Very interested, lost interest trying to negotiate the site.
Join the club, an open faced club, the sand wedge.
Hmmm, open faced club sandwich.
Sure hope it's a Reuben. :)
Sorry, the link did not work.
click here to see the 1911 Brooklyn team dodging a trolley. Click on the picture for a full image.
1911 Brooklyn players dodging a trolley.
Now the question is: Where is this?
Looks kind of what a fisheye photo would look like.
The National Baseball Hall of Fame and Museum Inc. (Cooperstown) helped put the exhibit together.
Here is a web link that pretty much covers the version I keep running into, in whole or in part:
http://www.acmewebpages.com/dodgers/thename.htm
Pretty much every source I run into claims that "Dodgers" predates Ebbetts.
This site says that "[w]hen the second Washington Park burned down early in the 1891 season, the team was forced to move to nearby Eastern Park".
If Eastern Park was at Vesta Ave. it was certainly not "nearby" by any stretch of the imagination.
I agree that the term "Trolley Dodgers" for Brooklynites in general and the team in particular may predate Ebbets Field but certainly not, as your reference states "By 1890 Manhattanites routinely called anyone from Brooklyn a "trolley dodger," due to the vast network of street car lines criss-crossing Brooklyn by then." has to be incorrect. There were no trolley lines in Brooklyn (except the Jamaica Ave. line using the unsuccessful vanDepoele system) until the CI&B line from Park Circle to Brighton Beach in April 1890. General permission was not granted the street railways companies to electrify until November 1891.
"If Eastern Park was at Vesta Ave. it was certainly not "nearby" by any stretch of the imagination. "
Well, I suspect it was a *little* closer than say Boston or Pittsburgh. And it sure is not as far as Lost Angeles.
We shoulda stripped *our* NAME off of them when they left!
Elias
Well, truth to tell, the trolleys were gone from Brooklyn when the Dodgers left and they were still in LA, although I think they left LA as well in a short time.
There was some talk when the Dodgers moved out here in 1958 to get a new identity and change the name. Because of all the cars and traffic on the freeways that suggestion never got off the ground and it was deemed that DODGERS was a perfect name for Los Angeles. The problem was O'Malley was a greedy bastard. He chose the LA Coliseum, a real clay maker, for a park instead of 23,000 Wrigley Field, a nice baseball park. He also forbid the name Bums to be attached to his team, severing, he hoped, all connection with Brooklyn. From those two decisions I turned on the Dodgers with venom and despise them to this day. That infuriates my wife but I always tell her when it happens: "Honey I have some great news." She knows that means the LA Bums lost.
TRAITOR
Streetcars ran in Los Angeles until March 31, 1963, to be exact. Chances are I would have remembered them had I grown up there, as I can remember that far back.
1) So where was Eastern Park?
At the intersection of "Eastern Pkwy" & "Vesta Ave" between 1890 and 1897. Eastern Pkwy was later renamed Pitkin Ave and Vesta Ave was later renamed Van Sinderin Ave. These two later day streets do indeed intersect.
Eastern Park was used by the Brooklyn team in the Players League in 1890 and by the Brooklyn National League team for the 1891-1897 seasons.
Home plate supposedly stood where the at the present site of the Evergreen tunnel portal.
2) Is this really the place where the nickname got attached anyway?
The Brooklyn National League Team had the nickname of "Superbas" at that time. They did not get the nickname of "Trolley Dodgers" until 1911, when they were using Washington Park.
"1) So where was Eastern Park?
At the intersection of 'Eastern Pkwy' & 'Vesta Ave' between 1890 and 1897. Eastern Pkwy was later renamed Pitkin Ave and Vesta Ave was later renamed Van Sinderin Ave. These two later day streets do indeed intersect."
I thought Pitkin might be it, but couldn't find a map showing it. Surfed a bit more, and here is one from the key year of 1891:
http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~blkyn/Map/1891.bot.right.html
The map shows the NY & Manhattan Beach in Vesta (Van Sinderen), sure enough. And it shows "Kings Co. Elevated R.R." in Eastern Parkway (Pitkin). [The map's legend is in this map section:
http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~blkyn/Map/1891.top.right.html
So there was an elevated railroad on one side and a surface railroad on the other side. Unfortunately, this map doesn't show the streetcar lines. Will need to continue the search for a map with streetcars, lest we be left with the "Rail Dodgers".
"2) Is this really the place where the nickname got attached anyway?
The Brooklyn National League Team had the nickname of 'Superbas' at that time. They did not get the nickname of 'Trolley Dodgers' until 1911, when they were using Washington Park."
That cuts against all the other publications out there. Not to say they are right, they probably are just quoting each other. Do you have a published source?
The Brooklyn National League Baseball Team never had an official nickname. The unofficial nicknames were the Bridegrooms, Superbas, Dodgers, Robins and Dodgers. The name "Dodgers" did not appear on their uniform until the early 1940's. "Brooklyn" was the only appelation that appeared on the uniforms before then.
The exact dates for the various nicknames are speculative because they were not official. Here is a reference that shows 1911 as the beginning of the "Dodgers" nickname.
The Brooklyn team entered the National League in 1890. However, it was in the American Association, then a major league, before then.
Good reference page. But confusion reigns. Here is the current team's website:
http://dodgers.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/la/history/la_history_timeline_article.jsp?article=1
Their clear suggestion is that "Dodger" started in the 1890s.
No, they're using the term "Dodgers" rather generically, as in "The Dodgers of 1890" when I demonstrated that trolleys ("trolley-dodgers") weren't common in Brooklyn until 1895.
The other paragraph relating Dodgers and the 1890s says:
The term "Trolley Dodgers" was attached to the Brooklyn ballclub due to the complex maze of trolley cars that weaved its way through the borough of Brooklyn. The name was then shortened to just "Dodgers." During the 1890's, other popular nicknames were Ward's Wonders, Foutz's Fillies and Hanlon's Superbas.
They mention trolley dodgers and the 1890s in the same paragraphs, but don't hook up the two.
You can't mecessarily depend on official sites for history, especially popular or anecdotal history.
I and others have discovered the unreliability of official sources 5that don't reference source documents, for example, the BRT incorrectly stated the building date of Culver Depot when it was torn down, and the B&O railroad didn't know when the Staten Island Rapid Transit began running.
I think it does. Key word is "other" nicknames were...
Stephen, I researched this issue when preparing Branford's
"Subway Series" exhibit (two years ago, btw). In the book
"Big Apple Baseball" is a quote from one of the New York
papers in 1895, ascribed to a society type, which says of
Brooklyn, to paraphrase, "they don't have baseball fans, just
a bunch of trolley dodgers". That is the earliest known
reference to the term, and 1895 would place them at Eastern Park.
The word "Dodgers" on the uniform was started in 1938.
That is the earliest known reference to the term, and 1895 would place them at Eastern Park.
The modern use of "Brooklyn Dodgers" dates from 1932. In the 25 June 1932 edition of the NY Times, the team is referred to as the "Robins". They were referred to as the "Robins" exclusively throughout the 1930 and 1931 seasons. On 26 June 1932, the Times referred to the team as the "Dodgers". Roscoe McGowen wrote both articles. Clearly, there was an editorial decision. One would have to look up what the other dailies were calling the team, during the 1932 season.
The name "Robins" came from their manager, Wilbert Robinson. Robinson was fired after the 1931 season. He started managing them in 1914, one season after Ebbets Field opened.
My local library's NY Times microfilm goes back to 1930. I'll have to check a decent library to get earlier micorfilms.
The word "Dodgers" on the uniform was started in 1938.
My mistake. The war time road uniform carried "Brooklyn". I don't know if the 1938-1942 road uniform carried "Brooklyn" or "Dodgers". The 1943 home uniform did carry "Dodgers". The home 1938 uniform definitely carried "Dodgers". There are several photos on the web that confirm this.
The Times might not be the best source for Brooklyn sports
coverage, especially pre-1900.
The Times might not be the best source for Brooklyn sports
coverage, especially pre-1900.
I did not say that I would be consulting only the Times microfilm. I'm sorry, if I left that impression.
The Times microfilms are widely available, just further than 3 blocks from my house. I'll start with the 1916 and 1920 World Series coverage. That should give a fair indication of how early the the "Robins" era was established.
I'm aware of the deficiencies in the Times coverage before Ochs purchased it. I'd hope to get some coverage of the Temple Cup series of 1889, 1890 and 1900 Temple Cup series. I'd especially expect to see a lot about the 1889 series because it was against the NY Giants.
Otherwise, it's off to Grand Army Plaza in search of the Eagle.
I have a book called "baseball Uniforms Of The 20th Century" that shows all the Major League uniforms through the years. Here's what it shows:
1937: "Brooklyn" in block letters on both the home and road uniforms.
1938: "Dodgers" in the familiar script, on both the home and road uniforms.
1939-1945: "Dodgers" on home uniform, "Brooklyn" in script on the road uniforms. The 1944 Dodgers also had an alternate uniform, used both at home and on the road strictly for night games: It was made out of shiny, powder-blue satin instead of wool flannel, and had "Brooklyn" across the front.
1946-1957: "Dodgers" on both the home and road uniforms; "Brooklyn" would never appear again on a Dodger uniform.
The 1958 and 1970-1999 Los Angeles Dodgers also used "Dodgers" on both the home and road uniforms; the 1959-69 uniforms and the 2000-2001 uniforms had/have "Los Angeles" in script letters.
Thanks for the info. That relieves me of the task of going through the papers for photos of players in uniforms.
In the book "Big Apple Baseball" is a quote from one of the New York papers in 1895, ascribed to a society type, which says of Brooklyn, to paraphrase, "they don't have baseball fans, just a bunch of trolley dodgers"
Do they give a specific reference, i.e, "NY Times, June 7, 1895, p.23" or anything close?
In answer to your reply to a different post of mine, no I'm not in BERA so didn't see your article. My source for Daft's "troller" is Rowsome's Trolley Car Treasury. My source for the meaning of "troll" and "trolley" are memory, backed up by Merriam-Webster.
In another post, I note that when I recently read the book, the quote was attributed only as a "rumor". No date. No reference.
See, I'm guilty too. I read that book a few years ago and I
mis-remembered a specific quotation.
http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~blkyn/Map/1891.top.right.html
Interesting map. Note that the portion of the Myrtle Ave line east of Wyckoff is called "Bushwick RR (Dummy)". I had never heard it called that before. I thought it was called the Lutheran Cemetery line, or something like that. Of course back then it was at grade.
After Kevin Walsh gets his site back up and running you can see a picture of a wall of Washington Park as it exists today as park of a Con Edison facility in Brooklyn.
It is back up and running. Like the day after posting.
Research Update:
Having surfed a bit more, if you give me a year between 1884 and 1911, chances are I can give you a website to support it. What a joke. So I looked at several books, which make more of an effort to be definitive. Almost all say Trolley Dodgers came from the Eastern Park days in the 1890s.
* Dodger Encyclopedia: trolleys "were at their worst in front of Eastern Park where a confluence of tracks made life especially dangerous for baseball fans"
* Storied Stadiums: "In 1891" Brooklyn "joined the National League, usurped Eastern Park and was renamed the Trolley Dodgers for doing so"
* Touching Base, which the GCT exhibit relied upon: "The team became known at the Trolley Dodgers because fans walking to Eastern Park had to avoid the trolley and streetcar lines"
* GCT show itself: "...they moved to Eastern Park, which had trolley tracks on two sides... from 1891 onward one of the team names was The Trolley Dodgers"
* Big Apple Baseball: Eastern Park "was located near a maze of streetcar and suburban railroad lines"
* The Ballpark Book by The Sporting News: "they played in Eastern Park (where 'Dodgers' originated from the name Trolley Dodger, fans who had to dodge trolleys to get to the park)"
Problem is, the only maps I can find show just one trolley line near Eastern Park: the line in Liberty Avenue 2 blocks away, and I doubt it was there in the 1890s before the grade separation project that started in 1903. The only book I could find on the topic is "Brooklyn Trolleys" by Greller and Watson. It shows the lines at the peak of the streetcar era decades later, so I have no idea when the Liberty Ave. line went in. Another map from about the same time shows the same situation (Eastern Park was where the green 'BMT Rapid Transit Lines' converge just north of the "Van" of Van Sinderen Ave):
http://www.bmt-lines.com/images/bqtmap.JPG
So maybe a couple of streetcar lines went in then came out. I certainly would love seeing the map showing that. Old maps for this area are rare, so any sources would be welcomed. The maps I do find concentrate on western Brooklyn and indicate railroads and els, and rarely show eastern Brooklyn or streetcar lines, let alone both.
I'm not hopeful, though. If there were multiple lines adjacent to Eastern Park as described above, at least one of them would have had to cross the Manhattan Beach railroad at grade. Doubtful. This area had been New Lots Town until just five years earlier, and had barely even become a part of Brooklyn. The area was poor, remote and less developed in the 1890s. The team had a miserable stay. They had a terrible record, a terrible park, and terrible attendance. Maybe it was the misery of the days out there that is remembered, rather that specific trolley dodging. (Making no comment about existing conditions in East New York, though Van Sinderen at Pitkin is a rough industrial neighborhood today.)
Van Sinderen had the Manhattan Beach railroad, and in time Pitkin had an el (by 1891?). But I doubt that dodging/ducking TRAINS was the inspiration for the nickname Trolley Dodgers. I don't think there was this much irony regarding our national pastime a hundred years ago.
So, barring a streetcar map discovery, it appears that the commonly told story of where "Dodgers" comes from is not true.
Here's my theory:
The other two books I found, Keppett's Concise History of Baseball and The New Dickson Baseball Dictionary, place "Trolley Dodgers" in the 1880s and the first stint at Washington Park (Third Street and Third Avenue in the Gowanus area). This is when "Trolley Dodgers" was first used, though briefly and in the multiple nicknames era.
Then, at the second stint at Washington Park, in the early 1900s, and at Ebbetts from 1913 on, the term was used more and more where the streetcars definitely DID run. In a real sense, Ebbetts was the true birthplace of "Dodgers" because it is where the nickname became official in the 1930s, and had the largest tangle of streetcar lines of any park (see map from the link above; Ebbetts of course was to the east of Prospect Park, just above the "Empire" of Empire Blvd. -- itself loaded with transit history).
I also believe psychology and the alleged fact that "Trolley Dodger" was coined as a negative term by Manhattanites plays a factor in this. Manhattan had miles of its own streetcar lines, so why the condescension? I'd guess that "Trolley Dodger" was coined at a time when Manhattan (briefly) had many els and Brooklyn was just getting its system underway and still mostly relying on trolleys. Nonetheless, several decades later this derisive term was converted into one of pride, allowing Brooklynites to assert identity within the now-merged 5-borough city.
But that's baseball. The Baseball Hall of Fame is located in a town where the game was "invented", even though the more obscure Alexander Cartwright, not Abner Doubleday, is credited with inventing the game (here in NYC). So sometimes a good story holds stronger than the facts.
When I researched the issue I was also bothered by the apparent
lack of trolley density at Eastern Park. My _guess_ is that
"trolley dodger" was a generic disparaging term applied to
Brooklynites by Manhattanites, e.g. the quote in Big Apple Baseball
ascribed to a society type from New York. That quote was, I believe,
in the early 1890s.
Technologically, the Manhattan system was inferior to Brooklyn.
There was the experimental Vandepole system ca 1888 on Jamaica
Ave, and then main electrification of the BCRR began in 1892.
Manhattan was still putzing around with cable cars at this point,
and didn't start electrifying until 1895 (or 1896, depending
on which source you believe). Of course, Manhattan never had
trolleys, except at the fringes. Although Manhattan was 15
years ahead in terms of elevated trains, I doubt that was the
reason for the condescension. More likely, trolleys and other
street railways (such as horsecars) were viewed as mass transit
for the lower classes. The wealthy in Manhattan could afford to
travel in private carriage, just as today they take cabs.
Given that trolleys didn't really exist in the 1880s, it isn't
likely that the term arose during Washington Park, take 1.
There was certainly heavy trolley traffic _near_ Eastern Park,
after all the ENY barn was a few blocks away, but immediately
around the park it seems scant. I would tend to think that
the nickname "trolley dodgers" was taken from the generic
nickname for Brooklynites and was not specific to the traffic
conditions at a particular park at the time, but that later,
when they returned to Washington Park and then moved to Ebbets
Field and the origin of the term receded into the past, that
it seemed logical given the heavy trolley traffic at those 2
locations.
In talking about "trolley dodgers" it would probably be useful to figure out when the term "trolley" came into general use in the NYC area. First use isn't enough, since it can take years before a term catches on. When I was a kid in the '50s my family (and many others) still called a refrigerator an "ice box" although virtually everyone around us had mechanical refrigerator by that time. And the City schools were still actively breaking us of using "aeroplane" instead of "airplane."
My King's Guide for 1898 has no mention of "trolley." It refers to "Street-Cars" and has a section devoted to (inter alia) "Railroads--Steam, Elevated, Cable, Horse and Electric". This doesn't prove the term trolley wasn't coming into popular use, but it shows the term didn't make it into a popular guidebook.
It does mention the "the field of the New-York Base-ball Club" which it helpfully lets us know were called "The Giants" but doesn't mention the name of the park (obviously the Polo Grounds from the location, whether or not it was yet called that).
"In talking about 'trolley dodgers' it would
probably be useful to figure out when the
term 'trolley' came into general use in the
NYC area. First use isn't enough, since it
can take years before a term catches on."
I agree with this excellent point in another post. "Trolley" may have been around since the 1820s, but what did it mean to people before electricity? Your information from 1898 supports the second Washington Park era. Any other information about the use of the term "trolley" at the turn of the century out there?
On the other hand, a phrase can grab hold quickly. The Times yesterday talked about how "America" was put on a map in 1507 and quickly took off from there. As a result, instead of Columbus, we are named for Vespucci. (At least there is one of these maps left for proof!)
I believe you had industrial trolleys before you had railway trolleys. The term is still used to describe moving devices hung from overhead rails to carry things.
Then there are trolleys meaning carts, mostly British use I think, as in "dessert trolley" in a restuarant.
We might consider that the different uses of "trolley" are not directly related with each other but come from the common root of "troll" meaning "to move around" or to "fish with a line from a moving boat" (the image of dragging behind a moving object).
The first use I know of of a term like trolley applied to a streetcar was from Daft's experimental electric streetcar in the early 1880's. He called the little current-carrying carriage that was pulled along the wires by his car a "troller," a short leap to "trolley," bt I don't believe he called his car a troller, just the device that collected the electricity.
It sounds like you read my article a few months ago in Branford's
newsletter (but I doubt it, you're not a member, are you?)
In British usage, a trolley is a little cart on wheels. I don't
think that in this country that usage was ever common to say
pushcarts, although if that were the case, it would be an alternate
explanation for what the people of Brooklyn might have been dodging.
As you pointed out, Daft was the first to use the term trolley
in connection with an electric streetcar, or more precisely,
troller. The current collection apparatus looked very much like
a trolley/troller which rolls along a beam to support a chain hoist.
Some of VanDepole's systems also used trollers. In studying the
literature of the industry, the term "trolley car" doesn't become
popular until about 1900. Prior to that, "electric car" was
more common.
To really settle this issue, the thing to do would be to look over
the Brooklyn newspapers from the 1890s and see what terms were
being applied to the horsecar conversions and new electric lines
that were being built at the time. Of course, any direct reference
to the baseball team as dodgers would be fairly conclusive as well.
My King's Guide for 1898 has no mention of "trolley."
Reference to "trolley" in Brooklyn can be found in the Brooklyn Daily Eagle on 4 Jan 1898 on page 16 column 4. The squib is entitled: "Sea Beach Trolley Route".
It appeared on the adjacent to the obiturary of Charles H. Byrne, the founder of the Brooklyn Baseball Club. The obit did not shed any more information regarding the origins of the "Brooklyns" early nicknames.
This establishes that "trolley" was in common enough use by the beginning of 1898 to be used as a descriptor of a transit route.
The fact that the obit of the founder of the Brooklyn Baseball Clubthe same day without mention of "Dodgers," trolley or not, is interesting.
"Given that trolleys didn't really exist in the
1880s, it isn't likely that the term arose
during Washington Park, take 1."
Excellent point. But the question is, since the word "trolley" has been around since the 1820s, what did it mean to people before electricity? Did they say "streetcar" or "horse car" only? Or did they use "trolley" to refer to what they had before Edison came along?
A map from the era with a legend might help, but again, a paucity. Here is one map from 1873 that shows lines all over lower Manhattan:
http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~blkyn/Map/1873.index.NYC.html
"That quote was, I believe,
in the early 1890s."
What I scribled down from Big Apple Baseball: "It is rumored that a Manhattan sophisticate came up with the line, which gave birth to the nickname, 'Brooklyn doesn't have fans, it has a bunch of trolley dodgers.'" I don't recall a date being given.
"Although Manhattan was 15 years
ahead in terms of elevated trains,
I doubt that was the
reason for the condescension."
I agree that this 'sophisticate' was probably in a carriage, and looked down on anyone in transit. But I also think that it could be more general chauvinism that his City had a more extensive network of the new high-tech els. He may not have ridden it, but it was a key development in driving the economy forward, and making money (on real estate etc.) for the upper classes. Put another way, limo riders today (with for example holdings on the east side) are likely to be very interested in the fate of the Second Avenue subway.
I'm not completely rejecting the idea that the name "Trolley Dodgers" or "Dodgers" before 1911 or 1900 could have existed. But can you understand that when an idea becomes popular through retelling it can become an urban myth? This covers things as diverse as the naming of New York as "The Big Apple" to the electrocution stories in the Malbone Street Wreck.
Urban myths are easily passed on with subjects that people consider not really important. If an intellectual property dispute surrounded the use of the term "Dodgers" you better believe the lawyers would be digging for source material, not going to printed books.
Do any of the sources you've provided cite any contemporary source for their speculations?
And a number of the sources you cite do not pass the most basic smell test. There were not a lot of trolleys surrounding Eastern Park. This is demonstrated by Greller. And as to:
Keppett's Concise History of Baseball and The New Dickson Baseball Dictionary, place "Trolley Dodgers" in the 1880s and the first stint at Washington Park (Third Street and Third Avenue in the Gowanus area).
Now we're back to the 1880s? What ran in Brooklyn (and the rest of Kings County) until 1890s were horsecars, which were not trolleys. Nor were they called trolleys any more than the people who operated them were called motormen.
I think what you need to do if you really want to trace the first use of "Trolley Dodger" or "Dodger" is to look for a contemporaneous source for your researchers.
"Do any of the sources you've provided cite
any contemporary source for their speculations?"
Nope.
"And a number of the sources you cite do not
pass the most basic smell test. There were not
a lot of trolleys surrounding Eastern Park."
This is my point for starting the thread: to verify that the most commonly told myth for how the Dodgers got their name is false. It did not start at Eastern Park because there were no trolleys there. It started at Washington Park, which did have trolleys (era 1 vs. era 2 is up for grabs), and became official at Ebbetts, which also did have trolleys.
"I think what you need to do if you really want
to trace the first use of 'Trolley Dodger' or
'Dodger' is to look for a contemporaneous source
for your researchers."
I only have so much time. This is why I took the issue to this forum: to tap into the knowledge of subtalkers. And most of the gaps have been filled.
I am inclined to summarize what this thread has come up with, and forward it to a few people. Maybe they can take it further. If nothing else, they can quit telling the current version.
And a point to add which makes the Ebbets Field solidification (for want of a better term) if not origin of the Trolley Dodger nickname likely: I remember going to Ebbets Field, though by the time I really remember it, the trolleys were replaced by buses and trolley buses (OK, the latter were trolleys, but not the kind envisioned in the nickname). To get to and from the main trolley stops, you typically had to dodge a lot of trolleys. The other popular way to get to Ebbets Field was from Prospect Park BMT, which required you to cross in front of Flatbush Avenue, Franklin Avenue and Tompinks cars, plus more I may not even know about. It was quite an adventure. In fact, try crossing those streets today. No trolleys any more, but basically, you either Dodge or Die, even today.
Perhaps I can be of some help. The name "Trolley Dodgers" was first used by Brooklyn's American Association team which played between 1884-1889, a team that would eventually become our modern Dodgers when they jumped to the National League in 1890.
My source (The Ball Clubs: Encylopedia of Major League Baseball Teams, 1996) lists this team as playing in 3 parks. They are as follows:
- Washington Park (I) - grandstand burned to the ground in May, 1889. The Veclite-Cortelyou house dates to 1699, still exists on the site today, and served the ballpark as a ladies room.
- Ridgewood Park - Sunday games played there until June 20, 1889.
- Union Grounds - The first enclosed ballpark, an outdated facility opened in 1863 and previously abandoned by the Brooklyn Hartfords (don't ask) and the New York Mutuals. Bordered by Union Av. and was considered rundown by as early as 1877.
***
Unfortunately a specific year is not given for the first use of the name "Trolley Dodgers," only saying that it was not an official name (like "Superbas" (derived from a vaudeville act at the time), "Bridegrooms" (used because a high number of players were married within a brief period), "Foutz's Fillies," or later "Robins" (related to their managers at the time)).
The name (like "Mets") goes back at least to the A.A. (defunct in 1891) and "was derived from an activity that the 600,000 residents of Brooklyn were familiar with in their everyday lives." It certainly predates the NL Washington Park days which began in 1891. The park was rebuilt as a concrete-and-steel structure in 1914/15 (Current site of Con Ed).
"It certainly predates the NL Washington Park days which began in 1891."
I meant to write that it predates the NL Eastern Park days which began in 1891.
Again, if it predates 1891, then "trolley dodgers" must have
been dodging fruitcarts or some other meaning of the word "trolley",
because basically there were no trolley cars in Brooklyn at the time.
Again, if it predates 1891, then "trolley dodgers" must have been dodging fruitcarts or some other meaning of the word "trolley", because basically there were no trolley cars in Brooklyn at the time.
FINALLY. That Explains It! They were originally the "Dessert Trolley Dodgers"! That also explains why their early uniforms featured cheesecakes as part of the design!
The name (like "Mets") goes back at least to the A.A.
I assume you're referring to the Metropolitans in Staten Island. The current Mets' corporate name is The New York Metropolitan Baseball Club, Inc.
However, I'm not sure if the earlier club was colloquially called the "Mets" although it's an obvious nickname. I researched that a while back as a peripheral issues to SIRT history and I didn't find a printed reference to "Mets" in Staten Island before 1965.
They held a contest to pick a nickname for the Mets. There were some interesting ideas: Meadowlarks (as in Flushing Meadow), Burros, and Knicks, among others. Guess who came up with Mets. Why, it was Joan Whitney Payson, the owner.
Well, she did do something right after all.
...I didn't find a printed reference to "Mets" in Staten Island before 1965.
I've found plenty of printed references calling the American Association Metropolitans the "Mets". They appeared in game descriptions that were in both the New York Times and the Brooklyn Daily Eagle.
I've continued my research with pre 1930 issues of the NY Times. They contradict some of your findings.
I had previously established that the Times switched from referring to the team as the Robins and started using the term Dodgers on 26 June 1932.
The 1920 pre World Series articles referred to the team as both the Robins and the Dodgers (3 Oct 1920). The 1916 articles referred to the team as the Dodgers, Robins and Superbas(4 Oct 1916).
The coverage for a 1915 pre opening day exhibition game with the Philadelphia A's refers to the team as both the Dodgers and Superbas (13 Apr 1915). Later coverage that year refers to the team more as the Dodgers than the Superbas.
The coverage for the last game of the 1914 season (2 Oct 1914) refers to the team as the Superbas. The coverage for the season opener at Ebbets Field refers to the team as the Superbas.
The coverage for the opening game at Ebbets Field in 1913 refers to the team as the Superbas.
Baseball coverage was spotty in the earlier years. The coverage was very good in the years of 1889 and 1890. This was the last year the team was in the American Association and the first year it was in the National League. The team was referred to as the Bridegrooms(1 Sep 1889 and 2 Sep 1890). They played in Washington Park in 1890 and in Eastern Park in 1891 (ibid). This 1891 coverage was good because they swept a triple header from Pittsburgh that day.
No mention is made of team nicknames just Brooklyn or the "Brooklyns". They did mention that a Sunday game was held in Ridgewood Park in 1888 (3 Sep 1888). Anybody want to guess where Ridgewood Park was located? The answer can be found on the web.
At this point, I'd guess it fair to say that the team that joined the National League in 1890 was nicknamed the Bridegrooms. The nickname Dodgers probably did not become associated with the team until after they moved to Ebbets Field. The nickname of the team that moved into Ebbets Field was Superbas.
I found quite a lot of more interesting material, while scanning the Times. One thing that may bear on these discussions is the term "Trolley Car" used in 1900 (12 Oct p3:2). It was with reference to an accident in lower Manhattan, which we all know did not involve a trolley car.
There was also the description of a fire that broke out in a car on the Lexington Ave El as the train left Gates Ave turning on to the Lex. The brakeman was able to stem the ensuing panic and they were able to get the train to Reid Ave. They were not able to extinguish the fire with sand and the Fire Department was called. The Fire Department stretched a hose up to the el and quenched the fire. The total delay was one half hour. I wonder how long NYCT would take to handle a similar crisis today?
I don't know that it necessarily contradicts what I found; I agree with all you have written (I have a copy of the Times article on Opening Day of Ebbets). Unfortunately I can not find another source that lists "Trolley Dodgers" as a holdover from the AA team. I hope the author was not taking liberties due to incomplete research. It is usually a VERY good source.
We can all agree that the name "Superbas" was first used under the Ned Hanlon tenure, as "Robins" was obviously used while Wilbert Robinson managed the team.
Total Baseball refers to the team before 1890 simply as "Brooklyn." In the 1889 (first intra-NYC postseason) and 1890 the team is referred to as the "Bridegrooms."
It seems more unlikely that the name did originate from the AA team after all.
By the way, there's currently a guy on ESPN who has the audacity to call the Los Angeles baseball team "the Bums."
That irks me to no end.
It shouldn't at all Brooklyn Dodger. They are a pack of bums and I can't stand them being out here with me. Let me clue you in on something. When they announced they were moving to Los Angeles after the 1957 season I was overjoyed. My childhood team following me out to California. Then I learned first hand what a cad Walter O'Malley was. He insisted his team get a brand new image and said he wanted no one, and I mean no one to call the team the Bums. The complient press, then as great a bunch of kiss asses as ever assembled, complied. Well I can tell you they are bums. They stink and think there is some magic ln the Dodger uniform like there seems to be in the Yankee one. If you noticed over the years they have time and again taken on other teams rejects with the hope that the Dodger uniform would work magic. It was always a disaster, yet they are arrogant as ever. I revel when they lose, and no one has gone more of a 180degree turn over a team than me. When I was a kid I loved the Brooklyn Dodgers. I detest them today with all the fiber of my being.
It is Dem Bums
Wow. Excellent research.
I believe there is general agreement that "Dodgers" was attached at Ebbetts. The question is where the term "born", even if only fleetingly. The accumulated evidence, including your work, points more and more to the second era at Washington Park, 1898-1912. The only evidence for an earlier date is (voluminous) heresay/legend. (Though the reference to a non-electric "trolley" is intriguing.)
I was riding a Dyre Avenue redbird,we arrived at 3rd avenue and 149th street, the doors wouldnt close.The T/O got out of the cab, walked to the conductor's cab, The T/O came back, a annoucement was made due to door problems this train will be taken out of service.The train left the station, A R-142 was right behind this train, then another 5 train pulled into the station.We arrived at Dyre Avenue, and guess what the train with the door problems was heading right out of Dyre Avenue!!!I remember the car numbers of the train so how did the train with "Door Problems" go right back into service?
Car inspector, mallet ...
Is that where they got the nickname "car knockers" from? :o>
wayne
In days past, yes ... of course nowadays with more electronics and more sophisticated pneumatics, it's a bit more civilized than that. Back in the old days though, a mallet did more wonders than all the volt/ohmmeters on the planet. :)
Probably had the same effect as a fist on a TV set.:-)
Most door problems were the result of levers or flags that sorta seized up with filth. If you banged it loose, they'd work again. Sometimes a squirt of oil. However, it was out of title work for conductors or motormen if there was an RCI around. Owing to deferred maintenance, kicking or punching something to make it go usually didn't get you in trouble as long as you blew the horn for attention when you DID spot one. As long as an RCI wrote it up and gave you a copy to take to the terminal, you were home free. And often, sans geese. :)
Whose to say it didn't run light to East 180 Shop
A train is not going to go into the shop for a door problem and be put back in service the same day.
If it is a busy time and they can't isolate the problem they may isolate the car. They really should not have taken the train out of service unless there was an indication problem, too.
Chances are the C/O did the troubleshooting enroute to the terminal.
This is the Second Avenue plan I have been working on.Since It would probably take me a few years to finish,this is only my 1 draft.
Bronx:The Bronx is a bustling part of New York.In fact the bronx is one of the most growing bouroughs in the city.Yet no subway line has been built to ease congestion on the 2,4,5,B,D lines.Which was one of the problems with the 3rd Avenue el.There was no connection to Manhatthan(though that wasn't the reason it was torn down).Even though the el has been torn down over 27 years,That might of been a preview for the G when the V comes into service.Thats why this plan will reurect the 3rd avenue el and also improve it.
U 2 Avenue express:Local from Gun hill road to 138 street.All time.This subway line connects Williams bridge,Fordham,Tremont and Morrisania with Mott haven.This line doesn't have as many stops as the former 8(which I call it) and has an express counterpart which gives you a choice of different subway lines.
X 2 Avenue express:Express From Fordham plaza to 138 street From 6 am-10 pm Weekdays.A non stop alternative to the 4,B,D,2 and 5,also connecting Fordham to Mott Haven.
Both lines ease congestion on the
2/5-From 3rd Aveue to Gun hill road.
4-125 Street to Bedford pk blvd
B/D-From 161 street to 205 street.
The U and X connects to the
2/5-3avenue/149 & Gun Hill road
6-3 avenue/138 street
D-205 street.
Let's be sure to get a group "SubTalker" photo for Dave to put up on the site.
I'll be wearing a WCBS Newsradio 880 shirt and/or hat for easy ID.
Oh, great. The tour of the 207th St shops will happen on the same day as the Hoboken festival. Well, you cannot be in two places at the same time, or can you if the timing is right? Any ideas?
Skip 'em both and go to the trolley model show in Valley Forge :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Absolutely!!! Completely agree!! See you there!
--Mark
Well, I'm afraid I'm not going to make it to any of them myself... my wife thinks I should spend the day at home with her since I'm leaving on an early plane Sunday morning for Denver, where I'll be meeting STEVEB-8AVEXP for an afternoon of light rail before spending the week in business meetings. But that's where I would be going if I was going anywhere.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Awwww ... oh well ... (she didn't want to go to King of Prussia, I presume? You could have dropped her off at the mall :)
--Mark
The tour is at 10am. It should't go more than 2 or 3 hours, right? Then hop a train downtown, xfer to the PATH, and poof! You're at Hoboken by mid-afternoon. At least that's what I'm planning. And of course after that a ride on the V!
Ordered my tickets last week. I hope there arrival since I'm in Toronto at the present time. If so, I'll be looking foward to seeing everyone.
This might be a little early, but any word on the weather for this Saturday?
Paul
Today's numerical simulation of Saturday's weather shows a front in the vicinity. Based on that, showers are indicated. More later in the week...
You might even make it in time for the last "Lackawanna excursion," which I believe is at 2:45.
Michael
Manhatthan is the buisiest(yet smallest)bouroughs in New York.And the people who live on the East side of this bpurough have needed a subway line for 48 years.Then theres the problem wit today's plan.No express all local.Plus it takes decades to build a subway line.Not for this one.This line will cost alot of money,but will only take 10-15 years to build.Why?Thistunnel will consist of a single tube running from 120 street to Houston Street.This tube will be set deep within the earth and will run about 100-200 feet deep within the earth without destroying anything above.First a special TMB will be Dug under groung creating a 30 ft wide by 30 ft tall tube that will guide the direction of a tube thats 25ft by 25 ft until 14 street.Then the tunnel will assend until it reaches Houston street.Then the TBM will be bought out and then another tube will be dug until Grand street.After Grand Street the tunnel will become an elevated structure and will run that way until Whitehall street.The express tracks will desend at a certain level while the local tracks remain elevated.
U 2 Avenue express:All times,nights local running express frm 125 street - Whitehall street
T 2 Avenue local:Local from 125 - Whitehall street.Nights no service.
X 2 Avenue express:Express from 125 Street to brooklyn.Nights,holidays and Weekends terminate at 125 street.
W Broadway express:Local from 125 street to 72 street(If the W is still operating in 2005 then it will run into Brooklyn)Weekdays from 7am-10pm.
Thi subwy line will alsoease congestion on the 4,5,6,(N,W,Q,,R below 23 street).The T,U,X connects to the
1/9-South Ferry/Whitehall street
2/3-South Street seaport
4/5-Bowling Green/Whitehall street(At 125 street via a special shuttle bus)
L-14 Street
N,R,Whitehall Street
Grand Street S
F-Houston Street.
Why do you think this plan has not already been selected by the MTA?
MATT-2AV
i don't know, do you?
I regret the delay in responding, but I wanted to give MR. X2001 a chance to answer that question.
I wanted to know his reasoning behind such a pie-in-the-sky approach, because it certainly escapes me. I also wanted to know why he refuses to heed the advice of others, and review the frequently asked questions, the message archives, and the planning studies on the MTA's web page.
To answer your question, the engineers involved have indeed suggested the use of TBM technology. TBMs have been the overwhelming favorite for a long time. Although railfans would prefer cut-and-cover, TBM technology is superior in this application for several reasons, including:
1) Utility relocation,
2) Underpinning, and
3) Surface disruption.
All of these issues translate into reducing cost and minimizing NIMBY complaints.
While the TBM will bore deep, there is no need for it to go 200 feet deep as Mr. X2001 suggested. That's ludicrous. The TBM can escape most of the above issues at much shallower depths. Don't get me wrong, the stations will be deep. I just seriously doubt they will be 200 feet deep.
At this time, money hasn't materialized for a two-track alignment, let along express tracks. Complaining that the system won't work because the subway is only two tracks is pointless. I apologize for sounding sore, but in the time it takes to either: a) complain that the subway will have only local tracks, and/or b) fantasize about a $100 billion system, one could draft a letter to their local politician and get something practical built.
Personally, I have always suggested that a two-track alignment be proposed initially, with a few selected stations having express tracks, most certainly on a lower level. These could be left unfinished and sealed off after construction. While adding to the cost, it would make the construction of an express routing politically easier in the future (i.e., the stations are already there, now just connect them...). Moreover, a four-track alignment doesn't make sense unless either local or express (or both?) can be tied in to additional lines, from the Bronx and wherever else.
Did I make all this up? No. I got it from keeping up to date with the message board and the MTA planning studies. Instead of irreverently spouting out, I respectfully wish others (names withheld) would do the same.
MATT-2AV
I would like to thank MATT-2AV for pointing a couple of things out.
1.The stations don't need to be 100 feet deep.Just deep enough to be clear of anything above.
2.The MTA Wanted to use a TBM to build the Second Avenue line.
And I would like to point a couple of things out.
1.If you would of read carefully I clearly stated the tunnel will be 100-200 feet deep.
2.I did say the express tracks will be on the level below the local tracks.
3.You can't build a tunnel,complete it and then shore it up.
4.I did keep up wit the message boards,the archives,FAQ's,other sites including the MTA,DOT and other important websites to my project.In fact I learned about how the 2 avenue line was to connect to the 6 avenue line, how original plans included a connection with the 3 avenue el prior to it's demolition,how my Second avenue plan will do away with the M15,BX35 and oher busses,How the City hall station(N,R) will be complete and used(Exept for the middle track)and how This will give a boost to Commerce in New York.
All in all did you (name not given) bother to answer any of my questions that I posted in June or July,or are you just ignoring the reaserch and lookingat the work
MrX2001
"The stations don't need to be 100 feet deep.Just deep enough to be clear of anything above."
But then you state:
"If you would of read carefully I clearly stated the tunnel will be 100-200 feet deep."
Why? Why would you want the tunnel to be deeper than necessary? Increased depth means both increased cost and inconvenience to the customer (because of a longer transportation time down to the platform).
"You can't build a tunnel,complete it and then shore it up."
I never stated that the express tunnel would be constructed. Only the express stations. If I recall correctly, the MTA plans to use cut and cover methods for some of the station construction. Once the sheeting is driven, excavating past the utilities is comparatively inexpensive compared to tunneling. By constructing the express platforms and then walling them up (similar to the way the Northern platforms at 63rd Street and Lexington are walled off), you get your foot in the door for future express tunneling once funds become available.
You can do anything you want, if you have the money for it.
"I did keep up wit the message boards,the archives,FAQ's,other sites including the MTA..."
Then why aren't you using the MTA's information? You've never challenged any of their conclusions -- you just irreverently started making your own plan. I admit it never hurts to dream, but I sense there's a real seriousness to your intended plan. That's fine. What the consultants recommend to the MTA will be constructed, not what's on this board. For all the effort in coming up with a fantasy plan, you could effectively campaign for something realistic with your local politicians. Have you ever written them a letter asking for at least a 2nd Avenue stubway?
MATT-2AV
This tunnel will consist of a single tube...
Circular cross-section?
Why was JFK express service discontinued
Because of low ridership
[Why was JFK express service discontinued?}
Several reasons:
1. It was very expensive to operate.
2. It carried very few people.
3. It was overpriced (at the end, the fare was $7.50 IIRC).
4. Most of the people who DID ride it were Howard Beach commuters who wanted their own isolated ride to/from Manhattan. In fact, one speaker at the public hearing referred to the A-train alternative as the "African Queen." (Note: I find that sentiment repulsive, as most SubTalkers probably do. I'm merely repeating what was stated in a public forum; check the transcript.)
5. It interfered with the operation of the A, C, and F trains (as a premium service, the "Bird" got priority over everything), thus inconveniencing thousands of riders to benefit only a handful.
Add to that the necessity of transferring to a Shuttle Bus once you hit Howard Beach.
A rail switch allowing 6th Av trains to use the Fulton Street Line is a useful thing in any event; I hope they kept the hardware.
Also when the A ran Exp under Fulton St there was no need for it.
It is still there, but it is used in case of track work that necessitates the closure of either the 8th Ave or the 6th Ave. lines.
You can see it just south of West 4th Street Station.
Excellent. One very good reason to keep it.
It's being used right now by the E train, which is running through 63rd Street this extended weekend (and last weekend, too). The D train also uses it on occasion.
There is an analogous connection the other way, so trains can stop at 14th Street-8th Avenue, West 4th Street (upper level), and Broadway-Lafayette.
The connections are south of W4 and are only on the local tracks.
The hardware was part of the original construction of the 6th Avenue line. I believe that if you dig through some of the old route maps, you'll find regular service used it for a time.
Thank you.
In affect, it was a limited express bus underground.
avid
I saw 3 sets of R142s @ Lenox Yard today like around 12:00 PM one of the cars was #6390 was visible from the far end of the platform.
This subway line will stem from The N,R and Q,seperating from the R at Dekalb Avenue(The unused subway connector) and from the Q a train length from Atlantic Avenue(By the way.In this plan there are 2 Atlantic Avenues)
*X 2 Avenue express:Local from Whitehall street to Atlantic Avenue(L).All times
*X 2 Avenue express:Local from Whitehall street to Seaview Avenue All times exept Weekdays from 6am-8pm
2 Avenue express:Express peak direction to Seaview Avenue.From 6am-8pm.Weekdays
*-nights skip Flatlands Avenue and Starret city.
An elevated structure running along Bergen street then connecting with the L at Atlantic(Van Sinderen) Avenue then along Van Siclen Avenue easing congestion on the A,C2,3,4,5.The X connects to the
M,N,R:Court st,Lawerence st,Dekalb Avenue and Atlantic Avenue
Q/:Dekalb/Atlantic Avenue
W:Pacifc street
2/3/4/5:Atlantic Avenue
3/4:Van Siclen/Livonia Avenue
A/C:Bway Junction,Pitkin/Van Siclen Avenue
L:Atlantc Avenue
J/Z:Bway Junction.
LIRR:Atlantic Avenue/Norstrand Avenue
"This subway line will stem from The N,R and Q,seperating from the R at Dekalb Avenue(The unused subway connector) and from the Q a train length from Atlantic Avenue(By the way.In this plan there are 2 Atlantic Avenues)"
There are too many trains running via the Montague tunnel and too much south Brooklyn service. Maybe a Second Avenue line can branch off into Brooklyn (somewhere around south 4th Street) which will eventually serve the Avenue U route (East Flatbush Bush Population).
The water street branch should just end with a connection b/t the 1/9 and N/R at Water Street.
N/W
T 2 Avenue local
Fleet:All R46
Operatins:Runs Every 5 - 10 minuites in/out of Grand street.
U 2 Avenue express
Fleet:Half R44,half R46
Operations:Runs every 5-15 minuites in/outof Grand Street
W Broadway express
Fleet:50%R46,49%R68 1%R42
Operations:Runs every 10 minuites in/out of 72 st
X 2 Avenue express
Fleet:50% R 46,50% R 68
Operations:Runs every 5-10 minuites in/out Grand street,every 10 minuies i/out Atlantc/Van Sinderen avenue.
T 2 Avenue local
Fleet:All R46
Operatins:Runs Every 5 - 10 minuites in/out of Grand street.
U 2 Avenue express
Fleet:Half R44,half R46
Operations:Runs every 5-15 minuites in/outof Grand Street
W Broadway express
Fleet:50%R46,49%R68 1%R42
Operations:Runs every 10 minuites in/out of 72 st
X 2 Avenue express
Fleet:50% R 46,50% R 68
Operations:Runs every 5-10 minuites in/out Grand street,every 10 minuies in/out Atlantc/Van Sinderen avenue.
This subway is built with CBTC, right? And the field shunts on the R-44/46s are replaced and turned on, right? The line is built to support 60mph operation, right? Okay. That's what the 44/46s were designed for originally.
Dan
If your riding or catching a train on the Green Line today between Park Street and Arlington, think of the passengers that did this for the first time on the Tremont St. Subway on September 1, 1897...104 years ago today!! -Nick
If your riding or catching a train on the Green Line today between Park Street and Arlington, think of the passengers that did this for the first time on the Tremont St. Subway on September 1, 1897...104 years ago today!! -Nick
Nobody rode between Park St and Arlington 104 years ago.
"Nobody rode between Park St and Arlington 104 years ago."
Yes they did, according to info found right in Park St. station. The subway had three stops when it first opened....Park Street, Boylston and Arlington. Soon after, the subway was extended to Scollay Square, which of course is now known as Governemnt Center. -Nick
The Boyleston St extension to the original Subway was not completed until 1918. The Arlington Station was not built until the 1920's.
The original route Tremont St portal was at Tremont and Broadway. The original route Boyleston St portal was in the Public Garden. The original subway did not even cross Arlington St.
I suggest you consult the Boston Transit Commission Annual Reports for 1895 and 1896, if you have any confusion as to the extent of the original Boston Subway.
"I suggest you consult the Boston Transit Commission Annual Reports for 1895 and 1896, if you have any confusion as to the extent of the original Boston Subway."
I consulted that at the Masschusetts Transportation Library. It said that the original station was at Park St although it was called Broadway.
It's Massachusetts NOT Masschusetts!
Well, at least I got the number of S's and the number of T's correct. In fact, I knew how to spell Massachusetts because I lived on Mass. Ave. for a time. This is until I moved to Somerville. "Masschusetts" was a typo.
Lexcie
I consulted that at the Masschusetts Transportation Library. It said that the original station was at Park St although it was called Broadway.
This statement is incorrect on two points. There were two stations and the Park St Station was never called Broadway.
I suggest that you consult the 1895 and 1896 Boston Transit Commission Annual Reports. As an MIT graduate student, you should have no problems accessing the material.
Lexcie graduated from MIT as well? Are you sure that you aren't getting confused with Todd Glickman? -Nick
Lexcie graduated from MIT as well?
No, I believe that a previous post indicated that he was an MIT graduate student, meaning that he is enrolled in a program for a masters or doctorate. That is what my post indicated.
One of his degree requirements will be performing original research, resulting in a thesis. If he does not learn how to use source documentation, as opposed to inaccurate crib notes, he may never fulfill these degree requirements. :-)
The Boyleston St extension to the original Subway was not completed until 1918. The Arlington Station was not built until the 1920's.
The Bolyleston St Subway was opened in 1914. The Arlington St Station did not open until 1921.
On Friday I took my first ride ever on the "W" line. To my surprise, some confused straphangers were looking at an outdated map on the W R68 train itself...suggesting that the line they are on does not even exist! I understand that it may take awhile to replace all maps in the 468 stations and the 5,000 plus subway cars...but honestly, the W R68 cars, the stations where the W stops, and then other major transit transfers should have gotten first priority replacement. -Nick
Due to ongoing work on some bridge somewhere, buses are replacing trains between JFK/UMass and North Quincy beginning with the start of service today, ending after the end of service on Monday. Ashmont trains continue to operate as normal but Braintree riders must use the connecting service. 15-20 minutes delay is anticipated.
After doing some railfanning on my beloeved R142s this week, I noticed that the announcements for connections had not been updated for the "W" line yet. When the "V" starts operations come mid-November, will the MTA seek out the gentleman from Bloomberg radio to make the update? -Nick
maybe they will i know i was on the r142 #2 4 times this week and the conductor has to interupt the man at 42 street it will get corrected soon
If they were smart, they would have had him record every letter in the alphabet. Maybe he'll have to come back to record the words circle and diamond.
yes, that is the plan......
Picked up today in the Balt.Sun (sunspot.net) Arts & Life section. Was unaware of number of passengers killed.
Yes, that one was a killer! The train uncoupled behind the 6th car at 75 MPH in North Philadelphia. The 7th car, a Pullman Coach, split in two at the pillar of a signal bridge, right down the middle, and the 8th car, another coach, and the 9th car, a Diner, plowed into the wreckage. All of the loss of life occurred in the 7th car. I have pictures of it in my Train Wrecks and Disasters books, it's a grim scene. The cause of the wreck was a hot box -i.e. an overheated journal bearing in the forward truck of the 7th car.
wayne
I wonder if such an accident could occure today with AMTRAK coaches ???
I wonder if such an accident could occur today with AMTRAK coaches?
No. As Wayne noted above, the cause of the accident was a hotbox, which is a condition essentially unique to friction bearing journals. That type of journal went out in the 50s (roller bearing journals for the railroads were under development prior to WW II; IIRC the first practical version was developed during the war) and hasn't even been used in freight service since the '70s.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
All types of bearings can turn into a hotbox, even modern roller bearings. However, Railroads have installed automatic Hotbox detectors at intervals along the line and the NEC is no exception. They are about every 10 to 20 miles.
Really? How on earth do they detect something like that on a passing train? What do the detectors look like?
IIRC, it's an infared detector aimed up at where the bearingcs would be if there's a train passing ovehead. I'm assuming Amtrak's work with both inboard and outboard bearing types. They also have dragging equipment detectors, those look like a big squeegee accross the tracks. I could never understand with passenger cars why they never put thermocouples on the bearings to watch heat rises. I think EMD did with a few locomotives, though. Today, with thermocouples or thermistors, you could do it really cheap and reliably
Of course, there's a zillion other ways trains derail too...
Yep, like the Broker did at Woodbridge, NJ in 1951. That was another killer, with Pennsy coaches telescoping one another and crashing through the temporary bridge and skewing down the embankment.
wayne
Luckily, no Big Orange South Shore car ever got tangled up in a high speed wreck. However, one train lost its brakes once and kept right on going through the streets of South Bend in April or May of 1967, right after we had left for Jersey. It struck something like eight automobiles and ripped through a bumper post in the storage yard. The motorman leaped out of the cab at the last instant.
Interestingly, those Big Orange cars originally had friction journals and were retrofitted with roller bearings after WWII.
Are we talking about the South Shore Line in Indiana? I know of at least one big wreck on that line -- collision between a Japanese-built EMU and a tractor-trailer "Michigan Train" carrying steel coils. Note that the Michigan Train is a name for a long truck. Three people were killed.
That was back in the '80s, right? I remember seeing a Comet-style MU locomotive with its left front corner ripped off (I think it was #24 or #28) and the reported loss of life in the seats in that part of the car.
Of course, while we're on the subject of the Chicago metropolitan area and train wrecks, who can forget what happened on October 30, 1972 between the IC MU and the Highliner.
wayne
Yeah, that express of 1926 vintage all-ateel brutes ripped through a newer train of bilevels as though they were tinfoil. Kind of like a BMT standard ripping through anything other than a Triplex.
I don't recall the South Shore incident, to be honest. 1982-83 was a transition period as the new Japanese cars were being delivered and phased in and the old Big Orange cars were phased out.
Without those detectors chances are there would be a lot more hotbox caused accidents. With the old friction journals the rank smell was a warning and there were people [caboose personnel for one., telegraph operators who'd make roll-by inspections, etc etc] who'd pick up the smell or see the glow, possibly fire. By the time a roller bearing journal lights up it is likely too late.
Anyone ever stand near an R1-9 with a hotbox? A smell of its own and you couldn't help but know what it was.
The March of Dimes D-Type trip in 1995 or 1996 had a hotbox returning from Rockaway Park. It took a godawful long time to get back to Kings Highway (Culver), and that was with repeated lubrication stops. For a while, we weren't even sure we'd make it back under our own power.
--Mark
Which of the three was it? 6019, 6112 or 6095?
thanks
wayne
Wayne ... offhand, I really cannot recall! I'll check the video I took of that trip this Saturday and should be able to tell you.
--Mark
One of the great flaws in Chicago's upgrading of its elevated system has been its refusal to adequately preserve its ancient elevated stations. The recent opening of the new Garfield Blvd. station on the South Side line and the attendant destruction of its canopies and platforms is a case in point for now Chicago is deprived of any station dating back to its inaugural line's opening in 1892. When the Douglas line is rebuilt in four years, all of the original 1895/1902 stations of the old Metropolitian Elevated will be things of the past and save for the refurbished Ashland Station on the Lake Street L, all of its original stops on the West Side will have faded into history. Even the Northwestern lines can expect to see their old stations reduced to dust when they (the lines) are rebuilt in a few years. This is sad for the stations are an elevated's signature in that they are a reflection of the times in which they were built.
New York is no better. The last of the Brooklyn Broadway El's vintage Nineteenth Century stations over Fulton Street disappeared back in the 1970s though some old station houses and staircases still exist along various portions of the line. The days of the old pot belied stoves for which the New York Els were so widely known disappeared along with Manhattan's Third Avenue and Brooklyn's Myrtle Avenue Els in 1955 and 1969 respectively. For the most part all, if not most of the stations of the Dual Contract Els (and the Broadway El's reconstruction) are still extant and are over eighty years old. This is longer than that of the longest running Manhattan El, the Third Avenue line, which expired after seventy seven years of service in 1955.
All of this is to say that whenever these stations are eliminated in the name of progress, the respective city's lose a part of themselves. To be a true rail fan entails more than just a love of trains; it involves acquiring a deep appreciation of the the culture in which they were built, and which they ran. The elevateds themselves would have bored me years ago had I not developed a curiosity about the cultures that built and sustained them for therein lied a thousand tales. The stations themselves have served as bookmarks and their elimination, whether the respective lines were cut down or not, left a book that was absent some of its most interesting pages.
Eric D. Smith
The elevated lines in Chicago and New York provide a unique character that defines neighborhoods - for better or for worse. Yet it seems Chicago has had very little regard for its history as it plunges head-first into modernizing century-old stations by tearing out nearly the entire structure and replacing it in some cases with a hideous, full-width canopy spanning the track area and both platforms.
New York, it seems, has gone for a more incremental approach, installing wind screens and new lighting fixtures but keeping the basic flavor of stations such as those on the J/Z line on Broadway in Brooklyn or those on the No. 7 line. Yet I wonder how long it will be before major changes happen as aging steelwork deteriorates and pressure for ADA compliance mounts.
I, too, mourn the passing of the pot-bellied stoves, gooseneck platform lamps and decorative wrought-iron railings - not to mention the old-style token booths and wooden turnstiles that once were fixtures on New York el lines. But changing times have made necessary different methods of fare payment, brighter lighting and higher levels of security, and a major transit system can't ignore its primary mission of transporting passengers safely and efficiently.
That said, I do believe New York's surviving els deserve proper historic recognition and respect for their heritage. As much of the lines and stations as possible should be preserved during any reconstruction. The els have outlasted several generations of rolling stock (and riders!) while providing transportation that made it possible for their neighborhoods to thrive in the first place.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Well, on the Fulton Street portion of the J/Z lines, the original steelwork which supports the (modernized) canopy still exists at three of the stations - Crescent, Norwood and Cleveland. Some of the dual-contracts stations, in fact quite a number of them, have had their lighting upgraded - and it's not pretty- gooseneck lights that look nothing like the period lights they replaced. The advantage of these is that they are VERY bright and thus the stations where they have been installed are safer. I miss the old cast-iron fixtures. They ARE available but are costly - so far only three stations have them: Queensboro Plaza (upper level), Myrtle Avenue (J/M/Z) and Sheepshead Bay (Circle & Slant Q). Here in New York they are treating the old stations pretty well -SO FAR. To wit: the #1 and #9 line north of Dyckman, the #2/#5 line from Jackson to East Tremont (except for Intervale), mostly original except for windscreens and those ugly gooseneck lights.
wayne
How are the Bronx B and D riders handling the 34th St. Terminus? Are they able to get downtown effectively? Are the various shuttles working well? Are the W and Q riders handling the Broadway routing without problems? Is the Grand st. to Dekalb bus getting good use (is it still operating?) Ditto re: the M extension down 4th Ave. to 9th Ave. or Bay Parkway, after the PM rush hour (why done?)? (Why not just run frequent bus service from Grand St. to Canal St?) How are W riders handling the Pacific St. terminal on weekends? Do they take the long N and R ride through the tunnel and local ride up Broadway or do the go one stop to DeKalb and change to the Q bridge (Manhattan express)train, or do they tend to transfer at Pacific St. for the Q or 2,3,4,5 at the connecting Atlantic Ave. stations. Does the added W Astoria service reduce crowding and operate effectively?
Are the riders generally accepting the changes without much complaining? What are your thoughts on the changes?
Mike Rothenberg
betcha can't say THAT (post) three times fast.
"How are the Bronx B and D riders handling the 34th St. Terminus? Are they able to get downtown effectively?"
No complaints from the Bronx, I don't think anybody really wants to get farther down then 34th anyway. But if they do, they have the A/C/E, and they also have two trains to connect to at 34th, the F and the S.
I've heard from business associates that use the "W", formerly the "B", that it's not really that big a deal.
Instead of getting off at 42nd and Sixth, they get off one block west at Broadway and 7th. It takes the same amount of time to and from work. The only complaint is congestion in and out of DeKalb, and a suggestion to extend the M all the way to Coney Island during rush hours.
I also have a business associate who commutes from Astoria - Ditmars Blvd., and he loves the new W express service.
There's no room for the M at Stillwell (rush hours or otherwise), unless you'd prefer to cut back one of the other lines.
Will the Stillwell rehab change the track configuration? A bit more flexibility in routing would be nice. (A fifth platform would be even nicer, but it's probably not worth the expense.)
Wait a minute, the "W" and "N" share a two-track terminal at Ditmars, why can't the "W" and "M" share a two-track terminal at Stillwell?
wayne
The cars need to be cleaned somewhere.
Notice that the two Q's share a north terminal but the Q-diamond can't fit into Stillwell. Same reason.
Has the TA ever experimented with car cleaners on the move?
And the W and N aren't getting along that well up there...
They're getting along Greek style in Astoria.
The ASS-toria line, then.
David,
I respectfully disagree. Before the Manny B. chaos began in the mid '80's, The following trains used Stillwell:
B
N
QB
M
F
D
Today, the only trains are:
W
N
F
Q
So, there should be enough room for the M train, at least during rush hour.
Well, you can combine a few of those: the "D" back then acted more like the Slant Q does today-terminating at Brighton Beach during the express hours, so it effectively alternated with the "M". The "QB" had very limited service and stuck its nose in only during the rush hours.
wayne
Correct - I think the QB used to be maybe 6 trains maximum during the morning and evening rush hours.
And if they didn't have the available cars, it was too bad, you'd get 4 or 5 runs. This was in the late seventies-early eighties when things were falling apart.
There were always 4 Lines into Stillwell, no matter what letters were used
But not all ran at once. Evenings, nights, and weekends, only the B, D, F, and N ran to Stillwell, and middays only the B, F, M, and N ran to Stillwell. Only rush hours were there five services to Stillwell (B, F, M, N, QB), and the QB only ran peak direction service, so cleaning the cars between runs (which eats up time at Stillwell) was unnecessary.
The W and M can't both terminate at Coney eh? Well, normally I like to disagree with Mr. Greenberger, but right now I can't (shoot!).
David has forgotten the prime example, the F train. The F runs at 4 minute headways. This would be the combined Stillwell terminal of the W and M.
But, the F doesn't send trains at 4 minute headways to Coney Island. Some trains are turned at Kings Hwy for that specific reason that D. Greenberger has mentioned.
So, good work Dave, I can't argue with you on this one.
To get to Brooklyn from Grand Central, I always took the #6 to 53rd St. took the F to Rockefeller Ctr., then took the D from there. Now I go one stop further to 59 St. to the N,R or W to 57 St., then take the Q. The ride is a little bit quicker on Broadway than the 6th Ave in my opinion. PS keep the R-68's, and Q trains on the Broadway Express when the 6th Ave. side of the Bridge reopens in 2004.
Wouldn't you be better off taking the 4/5/6 to 14/Union Sq, then switching to whatever "BMT" Brooklyn service you need on the Broadway Line (N Q R or W)?
For "old timers" like me that's the way it always was prior to Chrystie St (1967). Or, you could take the 4 or 5 to Atlantic Ave and then pick any of the "BMT" South Brooklyn services - not possible in 1967 unless you wanted to pay a double fare.
Chances are they WILL keep the "Q" on Broadway once everything's ironed out, but it will be the Slant Q and you'll have 36-year-old R40s. The "W" will be short line to Whitehall with the "N" going back to its original ways, express over the Bridge and also on Broadway. The Circle Q will then again be the "D" and the "W" in Brooklyn will then become the "B". Just hunches. Nothing is chiseled in stone yet.
wayne
A hell of a hunch and get the stone out. I would chisel it myself to get my Sea Beach back on the bridge. I will come to New York when that happens and buy hot dogs for all those who join me at Nathans.
It makes some sense, Fred, having the "N" via Broadway Bridge express, that's the way they've done it for years. It's a BMT tradition! Bring back the Triplexes! And for the Montague Tunnel services: mid-day and rush hour "M" service, as it is now, along with the "R". In Manhattan, two Broadway locals: "W" and "R". Up in Astoria, if the express service survives, it gets turned over to the now-express #4...er, I mean "N", with the "Weak and Weary" doing what it was originally designed to do - go local.
Out on 4th Avenue, "N" will be express when the "M" is running local - so you have "B" and "N" express, "M" and "R" local.
wayne
"It makes some sense, Fred, having the "N" via Broadway Bridge express, that's the way they've done it for years. It's a BMT tradition! Bring back the Triplexes! And for the Montague Tunnel services: mid-day and rush hour "M" service, as it is now, along with the "R". In Manhattan, two Broadway locals: "W" and "R". Up in Astoria, if the express service survives, it gets turned over to the now-express #4...er, I mean "N", with the "Weak and Weary" doing what it was originally designed to do - go local.
Out on 4th Avenue, "N" will be express when the "M" is running local - so you have "B" and "N" express, "M" and "R" local."
I hope they keep the W in Astoria after the North side of the bridge is completed. But new service would be W from Astoria to Whitehall Street via the Broadway Local track. Meanwhile, the N should be put back on the bridge all the times except late nights. Also, the N should be the express in Queens during rush hours.
As for the Q, the Q should be kept on the Broadway Line and should run via local on the Brighton Line while the D becomes the Brighton Express.
N/W Bwy Lines
I agree with that since the Q is a shorter line. I know from past experiences that the West End Riders miss those slants. Q may keep the 68's. PS the Broadway Line won't have the 68's if the Q or N does not have it when the 2004 time approaches.
I agree with that since the Q is a shorter line.
But how many people from Brooklyn are commuting to/from Harlem and the Bronx? Unless you're talking about trying to lessen running time? In that case, why is it that the Q wasn't the local and the D the express before the flip? I still think the Broadway line is the better one and should be served by the Express. I think that there should also be some part time Nassau service too, like the old R-Nassau, but not like the old M-Brighton.
OK, N Broadway. That's what I want to hear. We Sea Beach fans are coming out of the woodwork in droves.
And if it means anything, this IND man would also vote to restore the N to its former glory: over the bridge and express all the way to grandmother's house we go. Oops, got a little carried away there.
Speaking of the IND and the Sea Beach, Fred should be an avid supporter of the IND. It won't be until the return of the IND to South BK. that the N will return to it's bridge glory, and if the IND never hooked up to the Manhattan Bridge..... Let's just say that the N would have a permanent residence in the Montague tunnel...
Oh Poor Fred, boo hoo hoo, the Sea beach forever a LOCAL VIA TUNNEL
You are right to Fred s Grandma s place, that is the only reason why he rode the Sea Beach.
Wrong Pal. I could have taken the West End to 62nd Street, or to within one block of my other grandparents house ( I forgot the station) if I chose to. I chose not to. I also rode the Sea Beach to Coney Island. Get your facts straight.
I did , the Sea beach to Grandmas House, It was your choice and final destination Right?
And now a word from our sponsor...:-)
Make Fred Happy, send him a box of grits and a whole onion
Bob, one of these days I'm going to have to fix Fred a good Eastern North Carolina Jewish breakfast: eggs scrambled in butter, grits with onion gravy, and homemade buttermilk biscuits with scuppernog jam - a nice dairy meal.
Now I'm getting hungry... must go to the kitchen and make a batch of biscuits... it'll be morning in 20 minutes, who's to know I had breakfast early?
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
He would love that except for the grits and onion gravy. BTW eggs are not dairy. Mix some lox in it for him he loves his seafood
BTW eggs are not dairy. Mix some lox in it for him he loves his seafood.
When they're scrambled with butter they are :-) Ditto for the grits (a touch of butter there), and of course buttermilk in the biscuits.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Sounds like something straight out of Elvis's menu.
Anon: You're asking for it. Are you trying to kill me? Hey the Civil War is over. We're all brothers now.
Are you trying to kill me?
Well, you are a Yankee... :-)
Didn't have any scuppernog jam on hand, but those biscuits were real good with butter last night... found some homemade strawberry preserves this morning for the rest of them... mmmm good!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Fred's a Met now. Used to be a Dodger.
Hey, the Mets are really playing great ball right now. Too bad it came so late. It will take a miracle for them to wind up on top now. But it has been fun watching them pound their opponents except for the other way around. My wife is thrilled because she really thinks her Dodgers are going to wind up first or become the wild card. I am quietly laughing inside.
I'm not going to ask what happened after the 1988 LCS. The Mets had their chances and blew it.
I forgot to ask him about that
He is still a Yankee, Yankee anyone born within 100 miles of NYC, or overseas Any US Native Born Citizen, how the Crackers down south take that Who knows? Even by me I like to kid my boss from Lousiana that overseas he is a Yankee
The biscuits and jam sound great and my mouth is watering thinking of it, but grits is something I cannot fathom. The only thing worse is onions, as you know by now. I just got finished reading General Philip Sheridan's Memoirs. Got the book at Manassas. Virginia is a very attractive place, and, yes, I liked North Carolina when I was there with my baseball team in 1973. Hey, get busy and help elect Elizabeth Dole to the US Senate next year.
Hey, get busy and help elect Elizabeth Dole to the US Senate next year.
Ewww. She was the Secretary of Transportation in 1984. That's all I have to say.
Ataway 8AVEXP. We need all the support we can get on this topic. Good to hear you're on board.
Don't forget I have a soft spot for the N. After all, the very first subway train I ever rode on was an N. I can still see those shiny new R-32s with their blue doors and green backlit side destination signs, zooming effortlessly along 4th Ave. and Broadway.
Attaway, keep those memories fresh.
WayneR40, you're a gem. Good show. Boy if that could only come to pass. Maybe someone at the TA will read your post and get religion. Then we can really chow down at Nathans, though I'll leave the hot dogs to you guys while I chow down on the shrimp.
Before or after you ride on the Cyclone?:-)
The Cyclone first, then Nathans then the N Train
Are you talking about me? Put the N train first because I have to get to Coney Island, then the Cyclone, then Nathans. Then the bathroom behind Nathan's that BMT Doug pointed out to me when I went railfanning last April 1.
No, the order we did NYC on Thursday, we drove into Brooklyn, you rode the Cyclone, then we ate at Nathans, then rode the N Train, are you that senile that you forgot already? I think it is the lack of Onion in your diet.
I can just hear the two of you on the radio now. I'd be ROTFLMAO.
We really make your day, don't we Steve? Well if our fire warms you you're welcome to sit by it. Enjoy, there is more coming.
Correct, Fred and I are only the beginning. But we get along as long as we don t talk politics. We had 11 days together when he was here last month and had a great time.
Right you are. We had a blast.
In fact Fred thought the area was beautiful(Northwestern Va, but he is now a California, and nothing will change his mind, because he lives and works in a Upper Middle Class Town called Arcadia and rarely goes out to see the real Southern California
The real Southern California is Arcadia, San Dimas, Palos Verdes, Santa Barbara, San Diego, etc. For the most part it is a great place to live and work. I love it. But Bob is right, Virginia is pretty country and the people were great. But I'm a Californian.
And I'm a native Hoosier. Even though I've lived in Colorado for 21 years now, I still don't consider myself a Colorodan. Notre Dame subway alumnus, yes, Mets and Giants fan, yes. The Broncos and Avalanche are great; the Rockies and Nuggets, well, we won't go there. I'm still a New York pro sports fan.
Now back to the Bob and Fred Show.:-)
I am a Notre Dame fan. They have been my favorite college football team along with (don't laugh) Navy. You might be interested to know that I was also a big fan of Indiana U. in basketball. I remember how they lost to Kentucky in 1975 even though they had a better team than they did in their unbeaten 32-0 season in 1976. I thought that when Leskowsky and Green left the team they wouldn't be as strong in '76. But Benson, Buckner, Abernathy, and Co came through big.
Which Giants? As to me when I moved to LA from Brooklyn I was a Yankee,Knick-Football Giant and Ranger Fan, I stayed with all those teams thru out all the years, even when each one was in the celler. College I had a dream as a kid going to UCLA and eventually did. I rooted for the Lakers in the 50 s and 60s because of Ruddy laRusso, who was a good friend of my cousin in High School in Brooklyn, when Rudy went to SF I droped the Lakers. I am not like Fred and other Californians who drop a team when they are low.
The football Giants.
Too bad ND didn't show up for the Nebraska game.
How about The Valley, West LA, South Bay, Santa Monica, but you forget older areas like East LA, So LA, Watts, Compton, No Long Beach, where either Hispanics of Afro-Americans Live, or Monterey Pk where it is Asian. Fred the Anglo is a minority in LA County
Fred the Anglo! Very strange to say the least. Since when is an Italian-American an Anglo? We are Latin. As for those neighborhoods do New Yorkers brag about Bed-Sty or Harlem or East New York when lauding the virtues of t heir fair city. I think not. So why should we Southern Californians brag about Watts, North Long Beach and Compton when we boast of our great area. It is unfortunate these neighborhoods are in disrepair but all cities have such areas and we must accentuate the positive. As for that slam of just ignoring minority areas let me set you straight that we have real open housing here and our neighborhoods are getting more integrated by the month. We are a hell of a lot more tolerant of each other out here than you guys are in your neck of the woods.
Only because we were driving into town numnuts. When I fly in, I do it in the order I described. And since this was the only time I drove in, figure it out for yourself. And BTW, you need a lot more bran in your diet.
And you need some grits with onions
Yuk!!!!! What the hell kind of a friend are you offering me that fare? You want me to have a heart attack?
Your bantering reminds me of a sports talk show we have in Denver. It's hosted by two ex-jocks, one of whom played for the Browns and is in the Colorado Sports Hall of Fame, the other played in the NBA. The former is the straight man while the latter is about a step and a half out of kilter and stammers a lot. The two lines heard most often are, "What is wrong with you?" and, "I'm going to hit you so hard." Throw in a few rim shots and an occasional "Ewww!" by the female sports reporter at that station and that sums it up.
BTW, which one of you two is the straight man?
NEITHER, as to Fred, when he told me he hated Onions and Grits, I just have to keep it up, but he loves that Sea Food. By the way Fred you forgot the home grown Zuccinni, shall i send it to you COD???
No, HERRING.:-)
You don't think the M will return to the Brighton as the local during weekdays?
--Mark
I'm in!
And don t forget to order double onions
Hold the mustard.
But bring on Fred s Onions
The "W" will be short line to Whitehall with the "N" going back to its original ways, express over the Bridge and also on Broadway.
They'd probably have to swap the W and N in Queens. I'd instead make the N the local short line to Whitehall and keep the W as is. The B would be extended to become the 4th Avenue Express/Sea Beach Local (skipping DeKalb).
This would cause the least upheaval.
You've just eliminated all railfan windows to Stillwell.
(Yes, I know, car assignments can and do change.)
Oh Dear, you'd give Sea Beach Fred a heart attack if the Sea Beach was ever to wear an Orange sign and the letter "B"!
wayne
Besides that, it will only add more confusion to already disgruntled passengers.
If both sides of the bridge is open:
To make everyone happy, keep the N line via sea beach, but instead make it run over the Broadway Express tracks via bridge. And the B, as it was, via West End. Then short-run the W line (which would run only rush hours) to Whitehall Street from Astoria via the Broadway Local tracks.
In regards to the Q service, the Q line should model the former QB line which once ran on the Broadway Express tracks. The only difference is, run the new Q line every weekdays from 6 AM - 9PM via local in Brooklyn. This means the D will return as the Brighton Line express.
N/W Broadway Lines
The Problem is that is the D Runs Express in Bklyn, it will run only to Brighton Beach. That is why the made the Q the Exp and the D Local so the D would run 24/7 to Coney island rather then having 2 terminals in Brooklyn
I think Bob would like that. Just as long as the Sea Beach goes back to express and over the bridge, then I'm a happy camper. I am not at the present time.
B West End-6th Ave Exp in Brooklyn Local Manhatten and Bronx F-Same as now N-SEA BEACH EXP in Manhatten and 4th Ave, Via Bridge D-Express in Manhatten Local Brooklyn 205-Coney island. Q Express Manhatten and Brooklyn Via Bridge via Bdwy Mon-Sat 6A-9PM W-Astoria-Bay Pkwy Mon Fri-6A-9P Local Brooklyn and Manhatten via Broadway and Tunnel That is what should be done
I assume when you say B local in Manhattan you mean from 59th Street north. Running the B local south of there would jam up the F/V lines between 47th-50th and B'way-Lafayette.
Correct local North of 34th since all stops are local North of there, Express Bewteen W 4-34th
You forgot Nassau St. service. I suggest having an additional Brighton local in rush hours going via Nassau.
That would be the M on whatever line they use it on
Well you can guess that I will ok that for one obvious reason, two if you look carefully.
I agree with you #4 Sea Beach Fre that they should put the "N" (formerly #4 Sea Beach) back over the Manhattan Bridge where it belongs and get it out of the Montague Street tunnel.
#3 West End Jeff, formerly BMTJeff
I say extend the B to Sea Beach. It's obvious that you people don't care which letter is used to indicate the service.
If you run the "B" on the Sea Beach Line will it run on the 6th Ave. IND line once it is in Manhattan?
#3 West End Jeff, formerly BMTJeff
Yes.
Wrong again. I happen to like the letter N. It is my favorite letter and since the Sea Beach lost #4 decades ago, my favorite number as a kid, I would be taken back if they lose the N too. So get this straight, the Sea Beach is and must be the letter N unless they go back to a number system. No B, or Z, or C, or X, or any other letter.
How about W after your favorite president?
No his favorite Pres is a R, and that would kill him if the R was thye Sea Beach
Woodrow Wilson? Who the hell else is W besides him and Washington? If you know anything about me my favorite President and number one hero was and always will be Abe Lincoln. Get that?
I think they're referring to Georgie Porgie.
Is this part of TA's future plan for 2004? If so! I hope they really mean it. If not? You and I will have to figure out something to make sure your trains will crosses that bridge 24/7 as its suppose to.
Good. Another supporter board. Thanks ExpressM. Yes, I think I would do just about anything within reason to get my train out of that stinking Montague Tunnel and back out in God's own sunlight via the Manny B.
Fred have you considered that after 20 years people who work in lower Manhattan because the N serves lower Manhattan. Shouldn't this be considered before moving Sea Beach service back to the bridge?
One of those services will have to use the bridge when 4 services will fit across it. Do you expect the Fort Hamilton line go express over the bridge?
Why does the bridge have to be used to capacity? If the Bridge is run to capacity then the tunnel can't be. And it would seem that with the sea beach running through the tunnel for 20 year would change commuting patterns. Perhaps sea beach services could be split between the bridge and tunnel.
Tunnel R and W Mon-Fri 6A-9PM other times R only Bridge N-Q Broadway Side, 6th Ave Side B & D
The only answer is to keep the Q, W, N, and R the way it is for Broadway and have the B, D and maybe another line to add to the 6th Ave mix on the north side. If you move the N to the bridge, many riders will be confused just like the day the switch took place. On rush hours the N can move to the Bridge if you have W trains operating rush hours only.
Well a little confusion is the price to pay for repaying the wrong done to my train. The confusion will last only so long as the passengers involved g et their heads out of their pockets and read the new signs of the Sea Beach going over the bridge like it should. End of story.
Both the bridge and the tunnel are currently under capacity. With the additional two tracks open, both sets of track and the tunnel can be used to capacity with greater service south of DeKalb Avenue.
NO!!!!!!! They can take the R and transfer if they wish once they into Brooklyn. The bridge---period.
They can if they want to, but I doubt they will
Good point.
It's easy to sit here and decide which trains should go where. But, really, before permanent changes are made, the TA should determine which service would be most useful in each corridor and try to accomodate that as best as possible.
For instance, Sea Beach trains have run through downtown Brooklyn and lower Manhattan and have made local stops in Manhattan for over a decade. It's certainly conceivable that substantial numbers have moved into the Sea Beach service area to take advantage of this service pattern (or, similarly, that residents along the Sea Beach line have taken jobs at Broadway local stops). If that's the case, shouldn't the N stay as it is?
I voted for the N back Exp on Bdwy via Bridge too
I caught that. I thought you were trying to play a trick on me, but maybe even you have seen some light. Good show. How's the job going?
No Trick put the N back on Express, and the job is good so far
That means you two will represent the south side bridge tracks someday.
Besides that, it will only add more confusion to already disgruntled passengers.
It would cause less confusion. Under your plan, the Brooklyn W would have to be eliminated to replace the B, under my plan it would be the N, in which case the smaller group of passengers would be inconvenienced. In Manhattan, under my plan the Broadway line would still have the N and R as locals and the Q and W as expresses, nothing changes. Under yours, the N and W would have to swap. Finally, if the W became the local short line, it would have to become the Astoria Local, leading to another N/W swap.
By extending the B to Sea Beach, the least upheaval can be caused.
In regards to the Q service, the Q line should model the former QB line which once ran on the Broadway Express tracks. The only difference is, run the new Q line every weekdays from 6 AM - 9PM via local in Brooklyn. This means the D will return as the Brighton Line express.
The D would still have to be local to Coney Island off-peak, which would add unneeded confusion. Besides, the Broadway line is the more useful of the two lines and as such the express should run there.
I agree with Pigs, except no B/N Swap. B would replace the W all together in Brooklyn, W maybe Astoria-Bay Pkwy Local all the way on West End Line R/W Local Manhatten Q/N Express on Bdwy
Again, you end up swapping the W and N in Manhattan by doing what you're doing.
Don't call this the B/N swap, it's ridiculous, the B doesn't run on the West End anymore, and for all intents and purposes, the current service plan is permanent. The B returning to Brooklyn would have to replace some line, why should it be the W and not the N? So far I've heard nothing but historical justification. The fact that the B ran on the west end until 1.5 months ago is irrelevant, it is as irrelevant as the fact that the West End line was once served by Broadway Express and Nassau Loop Trains.
Are you saying the B will be like the old BB a Week Day or Rush Hour Train like it was in the 40s and 50s, and NEVER will run to Brooklyn Again. Even in 2004, are you a Psychic and know what will happen,m when the MTA does not. OPigs you gone too Far, next you will say there will be a connection at West 4th from the Brighton to the A Train to 207th St.
A lot of this will depend on the state of the MTA/TA's finances in the future.
Are you saying the B will be like the old BB a Week Day or Rush Hour Train like it was in the 40s and 50s, and NEVER will run to Brooklyn Again.
No, I am proposing that the B run via Sea Beach when the north side reopens.
Even in 2004, are you a Psychic and know what will happen,m when the MTA does not
I am only proposing this. I am almost certain that the MTA will restore the B to West End.
There already is such a connection. It's just not used in regular service.
That connection is currently used to run D trains in night hours to what I saw MTA's website. D runs on the A from W. 4th St. to the Bronx. That's only temporary of course. F runs on A from W. 4th down to Jay St. when diversions occur via Rutgers lines. Could you ever see the JFK express as a regular again? Nah! Don't think so! B will be on West End. N will see the Sea Beach. D will be Brighton Express. Q will be Brighton Local. W will be a rush hour version of the B with exception that it will be probably on the same run now, but from Ditmars to Bay Pkwy only. You could see the M on Brighton on Rush hours only as a supplement to the D and Q. F, N, and R will be left untouched with exception that N may be possibly express in Manhattan via Bridge.
I think the D will return to the Brighton as a local and the Q as an express as in the imediate past, and maybe the M on the brighton rush hours
I prefer this plan, when the 4 tracks on the MannyB are fully opened:
via bridge:
B,D, and "orange" Q runs via North Side (as before).
N and W runs via South Side.
via tunnel:
M and R runs via Montague Street tunnel as usual.
Service in The Bronx, Queens Manhattan, and Brooklyn:
N run regularly as usual between Astoria and Stillwell.
W runs express via N from Astoria through Manhattan to Stillwell
Express in Queens and Manhattan: To Manhattan (AM hr) To Queens (PM hr).
Express in both direction in Brooklyn (Since there are 2 epress tracks).
Rush Hours, Midday, and Evening until 9:30 PM.
No Service after 9:30 PM Weekdays; and on weekends and nights.
B and M runs regularly on the West End as before.
D and Q runs regularly on the Brighton as before.
I'll drink to that. I was looking for the Sea Beach on the bridge. I got it. Therefore your plan passes muster with me. Aren't you thrilled?
N can still be express, but put the Q on Broadway express and terminate at Queensbridge to give F riders an alternative when they get to that stop from Queens. R-68's on Q just might be the answer, but then again slants may be the premium. Note, what and where will the Q terminate at on the 6th Ave line if you have the F and V mix. That will be a little too much. We'll see!
Keep the Q on Broadway, run it thru to 179th Queens EXP E-Q Local F-R
Keep the Q on Broadway, run it to Co-op City or Dyre Avenue via Second Avenue.
If and when they build the 2nd Ave, whenPigs Fly and are Kosher is my guess
Genetic engineering my friend, genetic engineering indeed.
Out of them all 179 St. is the best for the Q, and R-68 cars supreme.
Right on.
Well, you could run the V as scheduled through 53rd., local in Queens, Manhattan, and Brooklyn (Culver). Terminate F at 57th/6th, local in Manhattan, express in Brooklyn (Culver). Then run Q via 63rd from Broadway, express in Queens, Manhattan, and Brooklyn. Or replace current plan of F 63rd express service with both Q and F express 63rd service, each with half the number of tph that the current F has, running Q express under Hillside Av.
Yes, Fred! I'm trilled. I' can't wait to see what going to happen by 2004.
Sorry, "express"
If you do not want to confuse passengers, the part-time Q service should be express and the 24/7 D the local. I would expand the times of operation of the Q from 9:30 to 10:30 PM, and add weekend service.
6AM-10PM Mon-Sat 630AM-9,00PM Sundays for the Q Express
If you extended the Q to those hours, then you could make it the local to Coney Island, and the D exp. to Brighton Beach. The only time the D would run local to CI would be late nights, and this isn't even shown on maps (only mentioned as "special late night service"), so it would be less confusing. This is what they should do.
whats your website address?
http://members.aol.com/bdmnqr2/linehistory.html (history of each line)
/erc.html (East River Crossings plans)
This is what they should do.
No, I think the primary service should run via Broadway. It is the better line.
You got that right........
My blood pressure jumped at least 20 points when I read his post. We ought to pay him a little visit.
Fred, you opend a can of worms when you were here. Lesson #1 To Lower your blood pressure. Have a slice of onion
Or garlic.
I take a garlic pill every day. Garlic is great except for the breath when you eat it in sauce, but onions are a whole different thing. I hate them with all the passion I have, and once broke up with a girlfriend who love them and told me should make me like them. I dropped her on the spot. No kidding.
I thought Garlic was to keep Vampires Away, didn t they find some bats on the Sea Beach a couple weeks ago?
Nope, only pigeons. :o>
wayne
Forget it Pig. You're raining on our parade and your antagonism towards the Sea Beach is sickening. Shame on you. Maybe you need a little friendly persuasion to cause you to rethink your thoughts, but hell you probably think that means knuckle sandwiches. Well it doesn't, but that doesn't mean I'm not going to keep hammering away at you until you see the light.
Next stop on the Sea Beach, New Utrecht and 62nd Street.
But you yourself stated that you'd like the Sea Beach to run over the Manhattan Bridge and all express regardless of which line it uses. The letter is irrelevant since you like numbers better.
I guess B is bad because it's the second letter, and you never liked the 2, whereas N is the 14th letter, which is a combination of 4 and 1.
Your last sentence.....I like it and I think you might be on to something. I never figured it out that way, but you might be right.
OH MY GOD! NO!!!
N Broadway Line
Astoria-Broadway-SeaBeach
Forever
From my prospective no.Then again I take the Q so it really doesn't matter.
Come See.
The Maryland MTA has finally thrown in the towel on the oddball track stucture used on Howard Street. When the Central Light Rail Line was built in 1991, the track did not use any form of direct fixation, relying instead on a totally unproven method of using a mixture of concrete and gunnite to hold the rail in place. Not one enginner associated with the project knew how it would work. There were continuing problems from day 1 with concrete spalling, rail wearing in strange places and other track problems.
With the shutdown of the Howard St. trackage due to the CSX fire in July, the MTA let five contracts that resulted in 80% of the rail ripped out and replaced with new rail using convential fixation method. All the rail has been replaced except at street crossings, where the old system is still in use. They will be replaced later on non-sports weekends, as the MTA is "under the gun" to get service resumed by the Raven's home opener on September 9. The crossover at Frankin Street will not be replaced, as it was originally imported from Germany already gauged and was simply bolted to the track slab. At all other place, the slab is notched for the rails.
Question: At the Heath St branch of the MBTA Green Line, beyond the Art Museum, you have a section of street running with shared tram/car right of way. Those rails are sunk into the road. Are they fixed using conventional fixing methods? It's definitely not evident.
That is most likely standard street railway construction - rail spiked to ties, gauge rods between rails with paving up to the rail head
Is that how HBLR laid its track in Essex Street and the surrounding area? They added Belgian blocks for a nice effect but the street's bumpy as hell.
wayne
Most likely not, as trackage laid for LRV's is usually laid with modern fixation methods that do not use ties. It's possible that the track on Essex street was laid on concrete ties, then paved, as the top paving level can be any paving material.
The track is very new between Brigham Circle and Heath Street. The public backlash at the potential cutback to Brigham Circle was enough to make the T rebuild. I remember seeing it being built, and I recall concrete slab though I may be mistaken...
I had heard this was being tried before but I didn't realize it was that extensive (I thought it would only be tried for a couple of blocks or so). It's a wonder the rail holds the gauge given the brittle nature of concrete in tension - the forces on the rails have to be pushing outward and forcing the gauge to widen, especially on curves and grades (maybe the lack of these on Howard St is what kept the rail intact). It seems as though a gauge bar every so often would be a sensible 'belt and suspender' just to ensure that gauge could be held.
Most people think that rail in pavement has no structure of its own and relies on the pavement to keep it in place. That certainly is not true.
this evening i returned from another 1 day greyhound trip using my 60 day unlimited travel pass... i was in a foul mood, as i had fallen asleep during the 2nr bus ride, and dreamt that i had a 60 day unilimited subway pass good only on lines served by r68's and r142's... normally i go right out of the port authority into the 8th ave subway, and go down to w. 4th street to change for the brighton line... apparently the mta's constant service announcements have begun to penetrate my consciousness, as i remembered that i had to walk over to 7th avenue...
while i was stumbling along the underground passageway, i looked up momentarily, from my normal scanning of the ground for unusually large footprints which might confirm my theory that the lock ness monster is now in new york city, and noticed tremendous piles of dust along the top of the lighting fixtures and piping... this is disgusting and outrageous!!!... i pay good money, that i hardly earn, to travel to the city... i want to get away from my normal surroundings... what happens??... i am forced to look at piles of filth which are almost as big as i have to look at in my own apartment...
what would it take for the mta to buy an industrial shop vacumn, some extra hosing, and a brush attachement??? i hope that the passageway has not been given landmark status, and as a result it cannot be altered...
Perhaps it's time for a telethon. But really inquiring mimes knead to no if the "official bouquet de Nueva York" is still bountiful down there. I believe the french refer to it as "Pierre" ...
aint that the passageway with the saying along the ceiling?
Anyway, who cares about dust, you wanna see some real dirt, go climb down onto the tracks and into the tunnels. Actually, don't do that unless you wanna get arrested or killed.
"who cares about dust?"
i'm obsessed with dust and filth... as i walked in that passageway, i was consumed with a fear that one of those large hunks of filth would fall down on my head... there was no avoiding the stuff... i became highly agitated and had to find a men's room where i could wash my hair and clothing in lysol, before i could continue on my trip home...
again what would it take to run an industrial shop vac through there?? if they don't want to buy one, then park the vacumn train in the time square station, and hook up some hose and a large dust brush, and the job could be done...
to be perfectly honest and gross, i don't believe that those masses are dust... i believe they are rat droppings from the large number of rats that use those fixtures and pipes to transfer from the bmt/irt to the 8th ave ind...
Maybe the pigeons did it! :o>
Go up to 168th St-Broadway on the #1/9 and watch the flying rats do their thing. It's enough to make your stomach do flips. Check out the crusts forming on the tops of those big glass light globes. They're so filthy, nobody will clean 'em.
wayne
Ever plow a driveway after a heavy snowfall? You spend a few hours shoveling all the way from the garage in the back to a few feet past the curb. Not just leveling the snow but actually getting every little bit of it out. Finally you get to the front curb. You sigh because you're finished. You did what you set out to do. Then you turn around and the snow behind you has returned and your next door neighbor comments you haven't done anything?
Sounds like that passageway to me. It can be cleaned several times. Yet as long as people walk thru there, 24/7/365, They will be tracking dirt. And that's not counting garbage that they'll drop.
i'm not talking about dirt on the ground or ordinary dust... i have no problem with dust on the ground, as it helps highlight the footprints of bigfoot...
i'm talking heavy duty accumulation of dust and filth above the light fixtures... this is crap that hasn't been cleaned in years...
i just got a camcorder... i will be in the city today and bring back some pictures of this crap... seeing is believing...
Transit COULD send a mobile wash team in there some night to clean out that entire passageway. But in order to do that the passageway would have to be closed for several hours while it's done. I hope your video shows what time of day you're down there. Even late at night (early in the morning) traffic is busy over there. There might be a major disturbance if people were not able to use the passageway.
i was there 12 am last night and it was crowded...
you sound like you are in the t.a. bureaucracy with your explanations of the difficulties of doing things...
i suppose if it were that disruptive, they could divert customers to the street for a one or two hour period in which they cleaned the fixtures... of course that would mean that the customers would have to leave the subway, but i'm sure that there could be a shuttle bus set up between 7th and 8th avenue, and a couple of hundred conductors directing the crowds, as well as posters in the affected lines and stations alerting customers to a major diversion that is being done to protect their health...
the more i think about it, that crap has probably been up there since 1904...
Perhaps since 1932, since it's part of the Independent Subway.
wayne
heypaul,
as a friend, nothing personal, back off!
that is not dust! i'll tell you what it is!
did you ever see tarnished silver?
well thats what is is!
yeah, thats what i said.
it comes from those homeless sleepovers that grind what few teeth they have left.
If they have fillings, it the silver amalgium dust blown up and on the fixtures while they snore.
i've staked a claim with the department of interior to mine those and other passageways!
if you see some one panning between the rails, it could be me.
so just don't try to jump my claim.
avid
hey avid...
please don't placate me with empty words of reassurance that this is ordinary dust...
the word on the street is that higher ups in the housekeeping department of the mta were avid watchers of the original outer limits series in the 1960's... there was an episode "it crawled out of the woodwork", in which an stubborn ball of dust was sucked into a vacumn cleaner unleashing an energy monster with an unlimited appetite for energy...
i now know (or know now) that this accumulation of dust will remain there forever... if they disturbed it, the entire 600 volt dc supply would be drained and amtrak's 25k would be next...
Looks lke the homeless will say just about anything to justify why they should be allowed to sleep in the subways.
The clean-up sounds like a good use for you know who's doo-rag.
I guess great minds think alike, at least when it comes to
filthy topics. I was through that passage last week and
I noticed all of the dusticles hanging from the conduits.
The ceiling on the south side of the passage is a few inches
lower because of all those pipes and I find it uncomfortable
normally, even more so with the unusual filth hanging down
threatening to land in my head. I've been through there many
times and I don't recall it being that dirty.
Some people have different ideas about how dirty is dirt. Some people will look at the same area at the same time. One will see a little and another will say alot.
Oscar Madison would have found the ceiling dirty.
Oscar Madison's newspaper was supposed to be located over in the Times Square area. Maybe he caused it :-)
It seems the way you are describing it you must get the feeling that you're walking in a cave.
#3 West End Jeff, formerly BMTJeff
You mean you actually WALKED that passageway and didn't get stuck in any Gum? Yes, the Gods of Gum have really smiled on the Times Square passage, the Times Square station, and also the Union Square and Atlantic/Pacific complex stations. Mighty gummy stuff. They ought to get some folks out there with gumsticks and hair dryers to get the stuff off.
As far as the dusticles and dustalactites, thats about par for the course. Go see some more of these at Lexington-53rd or 5th Ave-53rd, where they stick out between the aluminum panels. These are only two of many places throughout the system where you can see these unique formations.
wayne
I certainly hope that all of the dust in the passageway isn't given landmark status since then you'll have to look at the mess every time you walk through there. I agree with you that they should get an industrial strength vacuum and clean up the mess altogether. Besides breathing the dust can be a health hazard for some people.
#3 West End Jeff, formerly BMTJeff
I've seen the mobile wash team in there a few times. They only clean the floors and walls, not the ceilings. I guess the MTA figures that New Yorkers don't look up. Either that or the wash team doesn't want that crap falling down and clogging the drains.
when the man in the r142 automated announcements says: "stand clear of the closing doors...."... there is something about the inflection in his voice that sounds almost cheerful or pompous... it does not quite fit with my mental image of what a conductor should look and sound like.
typical mta conductor
i agree i wish for them to remove it. but, it is there for a psychological reason. the man is more likely to get the attention of others with their loud bassy voice.
This is subway related & is tied into what video camera U feel is best for shooting the subway / rail transit systems etc...
I own a few sony camcorders the tr818 & the 1999-2000 & tr 416 with 0.4. natural low light lux shooting ( my favorite )...
The sony camcorders boast of having the " Nigntshot " feature which looks like somehting out of the blair witch project !!!....lol !!!
However maybe some of U out there may own this JVC model with the special NIGHT ALIVE feature .... How does it work ??
Did you like it ?? Also i would like to later ask a question about your digital still camera if U own one ....
I would be glad to hear from anyone on this forum who owns or has seen the NIGHT ALIVE feature on any JVC camorder
!!.........lol !!
& of cource { on topic } how did it work in the subway? ...................lol!!!
I think you're replying to the wrong post.
Dan
sorry
a post is a post is a breakfast cereal company.
actually female voices are more audible to people with limited hearing, because they span a range where the human hearing is most sensitive. the components are also important, which is why the voices you hear on the telephone exchange are mostly female, and usually someone whose voice would be considered "soft but firm" -- giving a mental image of a grandmother. sexy voices are usually not good for said hearing-impaired people because they are too high and the harmonic components are too concentrated for their system of hearing to decipher. male voice is a bad idea for a different reason, in that human ear are not as receptive to the low freq range, esp when you are hearing impaired.
True, but any woman will tell you that men never listen when a woman speaks. And since the big complaint is that people can't hear the PA when a live conductor speaks, clearly the study groups behind this project nixed that idea. :)
any man will tell you that they would listen if a woman with sexy voice speaks!! heh
And women would throw it right back saying "my mouth is up here." :)
What is annoying is the announcement from the man "Stand Clear of the Closing Door Please". That voice sounds like a southern accent instead of a real New Yorker accent. Now the real thing would be this "Number 6 train to Pelham Bay Park, Please step in and, Stand Clear of the Closing Doors". Simple, very simple. One male voice like the real thing and no dual voices. When you stop at a station, it would be the same way, but in a easy male voice that is not annoying.
My good man, you've been away too long. While you were away, the R-142's have been equipped with new conductors, formerly employed by Radio Shack who are cheerfully locked up in their broom closets and they're really quite pleased ...
New hire R142 conductor
I noticed the site killed the direct link to the picture after posting it - for anyone who gives a BCO, here's a link to the page where the picture existed directly, this should work ...
New conductor module for R142's
The same thing happens on the radio, especially during his tagline. That's how I figured out which Bloomberg personality he was.
What I find most annoying is that there is only one version of
"stand clear..." They should have got the person to record
a few versions of it, then play them back at random. I suppose
if you only go one or two stops it doesn't matter, but...
It would have been nice if they had been able to get celebrities to record the announcements, like they have in taxicabs. The Bloomberg announcers are so goddamn boring! It's always the same, every stop. Part of what makes the NYC subway so great is the diversity in conductors. If you've got a good one, listening to the station announcements can be fun. The automated announcers are bland and unexciting and, while clear, detract a lot from the subway experience.
Dan
when the man in the r142 automated announcements says: "stand clear of the closing doors...."... there is something about the inflection in his voice that sounds almost cheerful or pompous... it does not quite fit with my mental image of what a conductor should look and sound like.
It sounds almost too cheerful.
Of COURSE he sounds cheerful ... the announcer doesn't have to ride the trains. :)
its true
I try not to make to many comments here at subtalk, I just enjoy reading the text messages. Anyway my Grandfather retired from the ta seven years ago, the last line he worked on was the flushing (for those that don't know what I'm talking about that's the seven line). He was a conductor, I use to ride back and forth with him from times square to flushing sometimes until his trip was over. Anyway one day I told him that the seats on the r62s r62a were to small. His comment to me was "people are never happy" you give them new equipment they complain if you let them ride for free they would still complain. At the time I could'nt understand what he ment, but after reading all of these complaints about the r142s & r142a. I now see what he was talking about.
you should post more, especially with personal experiences like the one you just described...
as for people complaining, and more particularly my complaining and slamming the r142's, i must admit to not riding the subways on a daily basis... if so, i would probably enjoy the cleaner cars, air conditioning, and operating room like lighting which would make it easier for my aging eyes to read the print in books that they seem to be making smaller than years ago, and the imbecilic announcements and messages that distract me from my general funk...
my comments about the new cars reflect a lack of style or mood that the new cars have, when compared to the older equipment (not redbirds, but r1/9's, triplexes,low v's)... this is just the way i feel and perceive things...
on a final twisted note... when you said the last line your grandfather worked was the flushing... i imagined a subway car filled with water and nozzles down at track level... like the old street flushing trucks the sanitation department had that used to flush the streets down with water in the summer...
i haven't seen that in ny for a while, although i was pleasantly surprised to see a street flusher in philly about a week ago...
Okay, I'll try to make more post from now. Anyway thanks for the comments.
i was with my sister who was meeting up with a colleague up on Concourse Village West. they are both ACN representatives. the guy who is the conductor responsible for the draging of a little girl at Nevins St. was there. i didn't know he was a conductor until he opened his mouth about it. his name is Ron and he is now gunning to be an ACN rep. meanwhile to keep his job at the TA, he is being put under investigation because of the dragging. he told me that the Redbirds give the motormen indication even when the doors aren't fully closed. the others don't until the conductor turns the key. when they put him under scrutiny, he can say that the train gave the motormen the indication to go when the door wasn't closed all the way. its not his fault that obsolete machiniery isn't safe.
>>> they are both ACN representatives <<<
ACN ????
Sorry i didn't explain what ACN is. ACN is a Telecommunications company that is dealing with utilies services and deregulation of them. they do many services such as long distance local telephone service, internet, wireless, gas and electric (coming soon)and many other utilities. they are becoming representatives of the company because you will grow big into the company. real fast. ACN = American Comminications Network i have there internet service. it is good but there is room for improvement.
i'm thinking of labor day, as a chance to reflect on how people are laboring through their lives without a vision of happiness or contentment...
organized labor has done much to improve working conditions for the average american... but it is a harder battle to fight against our own thoughts and feelings under which we often spend a life sentence of hard labor... worse, it is often a sentence served in solitary confinement...
to any fellow incarcerates... know that there are people here who care... know also that you don't have to go dragging around the same heavy ball and chain all your life... it may be hard to break free totally, but give yourself a daypass from the camp every now and then... it may do a lot to change your vision of life...
may the fruit of your labors be sweet...
Found info on TurboTrain in the Sikorsky archives.
Okay, I've gotta get this off my chest...
1. Why, at Penn Station (the busiest railroad station in the U.S.) does the LIRR have only THREE vending machines? With each ticket window line at least 20 deep (even on a typical Sunday morning), it would make oodles of sense to install more machines.
2. Why do the vending machines NOT sell off-peak 10-trip tickets? As an occasional off-peak rider, I'd like the convenience of not buying individual tickets each time I ride, AND I'd like to get the 10% discount (pay for 9 rides, get 10). HOWEVER, I don't like having to wait an hour at the ticket window for the privilege.
There, I said it.
1- At penn station there are 6 Tvm, 2 0r 3 Monthly tvms and soon there will be 3 mvm/tvms
[At penn station there are 6 Tvm, 2 0r 3 Monthly tvms and soon there will be 3 mvm/tvms]
I wasn't counting the three that sell only monthly/weekly tickets, because they sell only monthly/weekly tickets.
The three I DID count, which are hidden next to the escalators to the 32nd Street mezzanine, are supposed to be general-purpose, except (as I noted in my previous post) that one of those general purposes was deliberately excluded.
There are three by the escalators, two more over by track 21 in same area of station, 2 more in the long corridor that serves tracks 1-21.
====
The three I DID count, which are hidden next to the escalators to the 32nd Street mezzanine
====
If you turn around, right behind those is another one. There are two by track 21 in the main waiting section and I believe that there are two in each crossway. They are usually behind the track monitors.
-- Kirk
Whatever the case, there certainly aren't enough. At any hours with any crowds at all, the lines for the TVM's are impossible.
:-) Andrew
You’re forgetting the TVM's in the two long corridors. BTW, Penn is not the busiest station in the US, that title goes to Jamaica Station of the LIRR.
As for 10-trips, especially the discounted off-peak variety, I don't think the LIRR wants to sell them, so they make it difficult to buy them. Notice they are only available to Zone 1. MNRR sells them between all zones. Even off-peak tickets aren't available intra-island, so the off-peak fare from Zone 3 to 14 is less than it is from Zone 4.
Yeah. More reasons why the LIRR sucks. That plus the dismal on-time performance.
Andrew
10 Trip Off Peak (Price of 9 off peak) you can not share on LIRR but can on MNRR. For example if you had a 10 trip off peak ticket on MNRR and have your wife with you they will punch two trips on the ticket. No joy on LIRR, I tried and they charge me for my wife including the extra for buying the tix on the train.
Bastards.
I was trying to explain to somebody that a connection from the south side tracks to Grand street was impossible.
The north side tracks turn so sharply north at the end of the bridge, it seems to be that the south tracks couldn't turn to meet them without interfering with the center lanes.
I don't know the details, so can anyone back me up?
I'm sure this has been covered 19,000 times before, so my apologies.
Dave
I agree with you, Dave. It would really be a sharp right turn heading off the bridge, and a really sharp left turn heading on the bridge.
It could be done, but like you said, they would have to close down the center lanes.
think: flexi-straw neck
.....or that best describes the type of turn
the south tracks would need to meet with the
north... and we all know city buses can't
turn on a flexi-straw neck angle unless
given one half city block sidewalk space..
Archives dude, archives.
Forget about whether it's possible.
How could it conceivably be worth pursuing?
Perhaps the TA could spend a small fortune connecting the tracks. That would allow the TA to opt for the pre-July service pattern for the next three years. (Running bridge service via both Broadway and 6th Avenue would cause major delays as the two would cross at grade.)
The major difficulty caused by the flip was passenger confusion. That's mostly over, although some occasional travelers are still trying to use old maps and I suspect many passengers haven't noticed that there are better options than to do whatever they did before and change at 34th. (For instance, I'd like to see how many people are transferring from the 1/9 to the B/D at 59th only to transfer to the Q/W at 34th.) For just about anyone who lives or works at an IRT or BMT station outside Brooklyn, the new arrangement is actually better than the old one.
I have to agree that most people I talk to have found a faster way to get to work as a result of the change.
I got home Friday Night so that is why I am posting now. All trips were made back on August 20th.
I started by taking the M60 from the Upper West Side (RTS 8996) to 125th and Lexington Avenue where I caught the 6. The first train to arrive was R142A 7436, bound for Parkchester. I liked how the train announced "This is a Parkchester bound 6 local train" but got annoyed since it did it at every stop. I would only have that done at 3rd Avenue, Hunts Point, and Parkchester. I also heard the "Ladies and gentlemen, we are being held by the train's dispatcher." The LED repeated the message but the lettering on the LEDs for those announcements is quite akward. I got the impression the Pelham line would be great with a railfan window but I only saw one redbird the whole time (plus another in Pelham yard) and only one or two R62A trains. Everything else was R142A. I also don't like the announcement at the 2nd to last stop when it says "This is a Parkchester bound 6 local train. The next stop is Parkchester." It doesn't sound very good.
At Parkchester, I got off. The next train to arrive was R142A 7401 and it was going to Pelham Bay. I took it to Middletown Road to get some photos, then took R142A 7281 the rest of the way.
The only question I have about this part of the journey is when does the train decide to play the "stand clear of the closing doors" announcement? On the outbound run, the male would cut off the female most of the time. Does the conductor do this?
At Pelham Bay, I got on Queens Surface Orion V/CNG 498 on the QBx1. The trip was quite nice. There was only one lane on the Queens-Whitestone Bridge so we detoured to the Throgs Neck and only arrived a few minutes later in Flushing. I wonder if the Q44 buses were doing the same. Once at Flushing, I headed for the subway again and noticed an Orion V signed as a Q32.
The staircases down to the trains at Main Street are almost as bad as 72nd Street and Broadway. When I got there, a train had just arrived, so everyone was coming up the same stairway people were trying to get down. Once at the platform, I got on the train marked as an express by the overhead signs. A few minutes later, a garbled announcement was made but some people figured out the express was now across the platform. We waited some more before we finally left. Many outbound trains were coming our way. Also, one train left Main Street empty.
The ride aboard WF R36 9460 was quite good. I especially liked the bridge at 111th Street. I got off at Queensboro Plaza, where I noticed an Astoria bound W train with diamond Qs on its side signs and one could only see the bottom half. I noticed one of these cars still had the B/D/Q to Brooklyn.
I doubled back to 33rd Street on 9720, to Woodside on 9472, and back to QBP on 9756, this time on the local. Once there, I took the W to Ditmars on R68A 5098. Between stations, the conductor was trying to explain the W service pattern in Queens and he was quite confused himself.
At Ditmars, I reboarded in 5100 because I didn't want to miss the train but at Astoria Boulevard, the conductor closed up before I could make it to the front. I saw a slant R40 heading north on the N and I waited for it to arrive. It was 4216. No Ws passed us so I am wondering how feasible is the W express middays. The 60th Street Tube was not as exciting as people on the board make it seem. We were regulated by the timers and then coasted the rest of the way to Lexington Avenue. I got off at 49th Street and got lunch. I noticed the sings at 57th indicate the Q can leave from either the southbound or northbound tracks. Is this the case?
I got on the subway again at Times Square, where I noticed most of the diamond Q signage is stuck on the sign wherever they saw room. Did the sign people forget about the diamond Q or something?
The Broadway Express was not very fast, especially between 14th and Canal. Canal (bridge) is very nice. I rode the South Side of the MannyB for the first time, then took the Q all the way to Sheepshead Bay and back to Prospect Park, riding on cars 4240 and 4266.
At Prospect, I took the Franklin Shuttle to Botanical Gardenn (didn't record the car number), then took R33 9127 to 72nd Street on the 2 before using 9178 to double back to Times Square. After going to the Port Authority, I decided I would go down to South Ferry. I took 9148 down to Chambers, then 2410 to South Ferry and to Chambers, and then took 8934 back to 42nd Street where I caught R62A 2266 up to 59th Street.
Once there, I waited 15 minutes for an R38 on the A but it never came. I eventually settled for R44 5342 which I took all the way to 207th. The CPW Express was not very fast in my opinion. While waiting at Columbus, I saw some R68s with some unusal signs. One had a yellow B on the end (and since I wasn't expecting it, I didn't have my camera ready), another train was signed for WTC as its southern terminal. At 207th, I walked to 215th on the 1 and 9. When I got there, I tried to enter on the uptown side but the lone madien wasn't working. So, I had to crossover, and since I wanted to get to 207th to see if the photo vantage of the yard was any better there, I took a 1 all the way to 191st, then a 9 back which I ultimately took to 242nd. I then took a 1 to 125th and Broadway. The last 5 cars of this train were 1674-73-72-71-70 (north end), former Pelham cars. I now took an M4 back to where I was staying.
The next morning, realizing I had left out the 116th Street station, I went back on the 1 to 125th before taking the M101 to where I really needed to go. The M101 limited is quite slow on 125th (where it isn't a limited).
And that, is the end. Please answer as many questions as you are able.
Thanks, in advance.
Sounds like you had a full, but fun day. In Philly , female vioce announces "Frankford train - all stops -or- 69th st. train all stops" at every stop. You're right, this gets annoying, but I guess it has to be done for the sake of uniformity.
Chuck Greene
I have gripes about the M-4s too. The skip stop trains don't announce the next stop until you commit yourself to the train. In other words, the next stop isn't announced until after the doors shut. In Philly, I don't mind the repetition so much because its short and to the point except I think on skip-stop, its very important to announce the next stop before the train doors close.
I liked how the train announced "This is a Parkchester bound 6 local train" but got annoyed since it did it at every stop.
It's a good thing you didn't ride the overnight 2, which declares itself a "Bronx-bound 2 express train" even at local stops. I found that most confusing.
I got the impression the Pelham line would be great with a railfan window but I only saw one redbird the whole time (plus another in Pelham yard) and only one or two R62A trains.
On August 23, I deliberately waited for a Redbird trainset on the 6, figuring it would be my last chance. (FTR, 3rd Avenue-138th Street is a great place to wait for a Redbird. The north mezzanine has a direct view of all three tracks.) En route from 138th to Brooklyn Bridge, I saw two other Redbird trainsets.
I noticed the sings at 57th indicate the Q can leave from either the southbound or northbound tracks. Is this the case?
Yes. There appears to be no consistent placement of diamond vs. circle.
The B/D terminal is handled differently. The B always terminates on the southbound express track; the D always terminates on the northbound express track. (It worked that way from day one, although the initial signs implied otherwise. They were quickly corrected.)
I got on the subway again at Times Square, where I noticed most of the diamond Q signage is stuck on the sign wherever they saw room. Did the sign people forget about the diamond Q or something?
At first they treated the two Q's as a single route. I guess people found that confusing, so diamonds were slapped on most of the signs. Some aren't even the correct size.
At least most of the signs are basically correct now (although there are still some errors at Stillwell and there's a B at New Utrecht-62nd Street).
I believe with the popularity of scrolling letters to illustrate train speeds going around the board that somewhere on the site we should create a list of them or at least a list of the links to the posts. They are very interesting.
Feel free to host them on your own web pages. I can't even see them in my browser.
I am truly hoping that after the Democrats win the election for Nassau county executive, that someone starts the ball rolling in putting a Light Rail system somewhere to relieve the crowded roads. There are still some ROWs left that could be used in some way or another. They could revive the ROW that goes from Garden City to Nassau Community College. There are some points that be served by an off shoot to Roosevelt Field. Also using trolley buses instead of those SLOW moving diesel buses would help move traffic along the way on the conjested roads. These trolley buses have less brake downs than their fossil-fuel burning counterparts.
Even as we post, LITP2000 is seeking to expand the road systems in both Nassau and Suffolk and add an express bus system. The chances of any kind of light rail system right now are not great,c onsidering NYS DOT opposition. Trolley buses aren't even a blip on the radar.
But they might be able to get federal money for a bus rapid transit service with trolleybuses.
There is no plan of any kind for trollrybuses on LI. I don't knwo of any federally sponsored trolley bus projects, do you?
The Nassau Hub transportation plan was in the development stages until about three years ago it seems to have fallen off the map. There were no definite decisions on the final mode/modes to be incorporated but with limited ROW's it would need to be a hybird system to reach all the potential service points such as Roosevelt Field, Nassau Coliseum, Hofstra University, Nassau College, Eisenhower Park, The Source Mall, EAB Plaza, Hempstead, & Mineola.
The LITP2000 project references commuter bus transit utilizing HOV and other technologies but again I dont believe this has departed from the concept stage.
Nassau Hub looked like it had a really good shot in LITP2000 as light rail, but it would seem it is dying from Nassau's fiscal crisis and DOT disinterest.
as promised, i went out with my brand new sony camcorder to film the filthy forty first flourescent fixtures...
fearing that i would encounter problems from the authorities if i was seen fotographing the fantastic filth, i concocted an elaborate subterfuge to hide my real purpose... i hired 4 models normally scene in a famous lingerie catalog, and had them frolick in flimsy fashionable frocks in the passageway... needless to say, passerbys were riveted by the women and hardly noticed me focusing on the filth...
i froze four frames of filthy fixtures...
the first one bears evidence of the layers of filth that have accumulated on top of the flourescent fixtures...
layers of filth
the next shot shows an amorphous blob with tentacles somewhat reminiscent of the outer limits blob
amorphous blob
the third shot shows that people have taken to planting bulbs in this rich fertile filth
layers of filth
and the final frame is evidence that heads of lettuce are growing up there...
layers of filth
in fairness, a closer look at the whole scene just east of 8th avenue in the passageway, reveals a series of 5 bulb lights that were strung together with wires... the wires attracted some dirt and grime... it was the wire that gave the appearance of thick strands of filth...
From one lensman to another...
let no thick strands of filth
gather atop thou camera, Sire..
Keep It Reel'
Wowsers ... I'm impressed. I have a theory that the "creeping crud" is none other than the ghost of Gerhard Melvin Dahl, working his way through the catacombs in search of Mayor Hylan's subway ... who ya gonna call?
That's pretty filthy! You never know what you'll find down there. If you want to see some REALLY CLASSIC FILTH, head down to Chambers Street BMT (bring an umbrella and wear a hard hat) and look at the north end of the closed platform. Also the areas around the closed stairways which lead to the closed platform (the ones toward the south end of the station, where the Great Leak lives) are particularly philthy.
wayne
If you didn't already know... At Chambers the ceilings were painted or are still in the process of being painted atleast on the Queens-bound side. It looks much better. I'm no longer in fear of a strange fungal infection from waiting for a train there. It was pretty nasty looking.
Shawn.
We'll see how long THAT lasts, since they haven't made any effort to plug the underlying leak that causes the mold and rot. I must say this, though- ANYTHING is an improvement over what was there. You'd think they'd use some kind of moisture-proof sealant first, perhaps the stuff they put inside swimming pools would work.
wayne
It would take nothing short of a renovation of Ellis Island proportions to bring back Chambers St. from the magnificent ruin it has become.
There are also a few ancient punch boxes on the northbound platform at Chambers (and maybe also the southbound one, but I was waiting for a northbound train when I noticed them). I wonder if they're still in use. I haven't seen anything like them anywhere else.
I would think the only time they would be used would be for laying up trains on the former bridge leads.
do we get some footage of the females, too?
hey man... you want to see females, go get a copy of victoria secret or some national men's magazine... the models were just a cover for my investigative work... those pictures i posted are real live filth, not some fantasy...
Heypaul: You should submit these photos to the following website:
Filthy Mess
They need some new "dirt".
hey moving platform... thanks for the link to filthy mess... i never heard of that site and i am e-mailing the webmaster of that site... perhaps i can infiltrate that website and start spreading the heypaul virus there... again thanks... if you ever find yourself in a filthy mess, let me know, and i will be happy to record it and make you a public spectacle...
ROTFLMAO
Welcome back, Paul.
Abstitively PHILTHY! We loves it!
wayne :o>
The poor guy who has to clean the platforms and stairways of the system must encounter some really nasty things. The creatures who leave these things must be very repulsive in their own right. Yikes!
Oh shit !!..........this is sooooooo funny !!!!...............LOL !! ........big time !!!................way to go heypaul !!!
mr. salaam allah ( i think you like mister )...
i am glad you liked it...you want to co-produce a 6 hour video documenting filth in the system... we could do an hour in this passageway... an hour at chambers street... a real expose on filth in the air conditioning systems aboard the cars... an hour on the water dripping from the ceilings onto the platforms at various stations and an analysis of what that water really is... an hour on where the rats live and breed in the system... and last but not least an hour highlighting the stations where people frequently urinate and defecate, and turn that into a candid camera episode with durwood kirby and allan funt both brought back from the hereafter to surprise the customers...
OMG !!! oh well nyc home sweet home my birthplace 11-3-51 where i will celebrate my 50th on 11-3-01 !!!
( avoid all syrofoam built R-142s ) ........LOL .....!!!
heypaul,
you may fool the rest of the gulible riding public but not me.
A close examination of each shot has revealed each to be a closeup of TV sportscastors hair peices. The ones combed from one side of the head, above the ear, up and over a BALD expanse to join with growth from the other side of the head. The hair peice is artfully woven with the hair to not show a hair line. The foto with the light bulbs is a newscastor waiting for a witty idea.
avid
avid... you were the one unknown in attempting to foist my fantasy about the filthy flourescent fixtures... you have revealed the truth of my photos... my greyhound hat goes off to you, hopefully without pulling my hairpiece with it...
I like the alliteration.:-)
Even though I've been living in the Glen Cove area for almost 3 years now I have never taken the Oyster Bay train to the end of the line in Oyster Bay. That was until today. The weather was cool and crisp, and the train arrived right on time at 11:17am, perhaps a minute early. After the Glen Cove station things got really, really scenic. To the south, nothing but woods. And the Locust Valley station (which I will be using soon) looked delightful. After Locust Valley it was like a country railroad, with nothing but forest on both sides of us. The only other manmade stuff was subtransmission and distrubution cables. It felt like I was upstate or something. It is a single track afterb Locust Valley. We passed a large pond, and were in Oyster Bay after more woods. Hmm with little roads to ROW, I wonder how LIPA gets to downed wires (don't tell me LIPA has a special train!). Going to Oyster Bay they didn't even check tickets.
At Oyster Bay there was a single platform, which was new. I walked toward the old station, which has signs all over pointing to the new "high level" platforms. In order to get to Roosevelt Park there was a pedestrain only crossing. Wow I never saw one of those. It didn't have flashing lights, just a sign saying to look both ways for trains. Just after I crossed the train that I got off moved very slowly to the yard, and blew it's horn. It braked right before the crossing thenm proceeded into the yard. The park itslef is very nice, with a beach, nice view of Oyster Bay and plenty of open green space. Why haven't I done this before!
I also saw the tracks in the yard, and manual switches right around the ped crossing. They seemed in use, and anybody could throw them.
I walked by the old station, and saw the yard. I could not see the steam locomitive that is supposed to be there.
Well the town was nice, as well as the strip mall I went to about a 30 minute walk to the south, where I got 3 CD's for 3 dollars (who needs Sale of the Century!).
Going back the ride was just as nice. I gotta admit even though the OB line doesn't have much speed it is #1 when it comes to scenery. AFter all speed isn't everything.
I couldn't find the abandoned Mill Neck station. I wonder where the Steam loco is, and when the RR museum will open there. I would highly recommend the Oyster Bay line as a Subtalk trip, for a change it would be a more rural venue.
The steam locomotive is at the northeastern end of the yard on RR property. The reason you don't see it is because it is dismantled in pieces, and you have to go to the eastern end of the park, or should I say past the park on the road that leads into it. Unfortunately since it is on Railroad property, it is very hard to find it unless you can drive to the entrance to the park off of South Street.
The old Mill Neck station a bit north of that pond after the track straightens out. If you are headed toward Oyster Bay, it will be on your left side, leaving Oyster Bay it will be on your right.
Did you see the old turntable ? It's still there in the back of the yard.
If you didn't know, Locust Valley was the original northern terminus of the Oyster Bay branch before it was extended to Oyster Bay in the 1800s.
Bill "Newkirk"
Make sure you go again on a mid-October weekend for the Oyster festival. Driving there is improssible, the trains are packed, the LIRR has the sense to add a collector at Mineola, but not enough to run hourly service for the event.
Speaking of festivals in the fall, anybody know of any good Oktoberfests in this region (northern Jersey/southern NY), or even any Samhain festivals?
Any information on the Rennassaince festival?
Thanks.
Does anyone know on what subway line the neighborhood of the Paulino Little League rests in? I know it is in one of the less affluent areas and that is why I can feel for those young men. What stupid and ignorant parents that boy must have to doctor a birth certificate and tell the kid it;s ok to cheat. Has the bar to human decency and honesty been lowered that much? Now I find out the kid hasn't been enrolled in school for a year and a half. What next? Are we going to find out that the family is in the US illegally? I wanted so much to believe that Danny was really 12 because over three decades ago I had a lefthanded pitcher (and hitter) who was as dominant as Danny was. I know that such a phenom is possible. Alas, I was disappointed. Now th at league will probably lose its Little League franchise and then what will the kids do. As much as I love the subways, I would much prefer them playing baseball than riding the rails=====or worse still, getting into gangs and trouble. Thanks for listening out there.
Fred do you want to visit his neighborhood next time you are in the BX?
Me in the Bronx? Would I be welcome or would I have to travel there incognito? Yes I would visit the Little League field where they played. I liked the idea of a bunch of immigrant kids going up against the establishment and winning big. But, alas, hearing of what came to light made me very disapointed.
I liked the idea of a bunch of immigrant kids going up against the establishment and winning big.
Many of them were natural born US Citizens, like you and I.
I feel sorry for everyone on the team, all of their achievements were erased and it's not their fault in the SLIGHTEST way.
Now, if these age requirements were abandoned and replaced with a fairer system of physical ability, then Almonte would never be in the 11-12 equivalent level, forging documents would do nothing.
Many of them were natural born US Citizens, like you and I.
Or you and me, I don't know which.
The implied end of that sentence is "like you and I (are U.S. citizens.)" In this instance, "I" is correct.
The implied end of that sentence is "like you and I (are U.S. citizens.)" In this instance, "I" is correct.
The word "like" is a preposition in the sentence "Many of them were natural born US Citizens, like you and I." Prepositions require objects, which should be declined in the objective case. Thus, the grammatically correct statement should have been:
"Many of them were natural born US Citizens, like you and me.
The word "as" is a conjunction. It would be used in this sentence as follows:
"Many of them were natural born US Citizens, as you and I [are U.S. citizens].
I stand corrected.
Do you actually stand while posting on the Internet?
Websters dictionary recognizes both the conjunction and
preposition form of "like". In more formal writing, one
would avoid the word entirely and use "as [are]"
When you think about it for awhile, you realize that like can also be used as an adjective or a verb as well!
You is correct!
"Be" is the only verb that still has all of those weird forms, whereas all others are pretty simple. Why is that, and why all of the different forms.
It seems is is related to was, was to were, were to are, and are to am, but where does be fit in all this? Why has the future tense in English become so oversimplified?
And don’t forget “thou art” (Our Father, who art in heaven… for those who learned the King James’ version of the Lord’s prayer).
English, probably because it has been borrowed and returned by so many other cultures, has been simplified over the years, but there are still the metaphorical branches that people can trip over.
John
Yes, I've always felt we should bring back thou, thee and thy. You can really tell somebody how you feel about them that way.
I assume art is to thou as are is to you, they and we? Or is that not it?
I assume art is to thou as are is to you...
Correct.
Thou art is second person singular. The plural of thou is ye (or yiz in North Jersey).
The reason is because "to be" is a commonly used verb. When English became more standardized, the less common verbs were easy to make uniform, but people were so used to all the forms of "to be" that they stuck. This is true of all languages, in German, "to be" (sein)has bin, bist, ist, and sind for present tense.
I liked the idea of a bunch of immigrant kids going up against the establishment and winning big.
Fred, you know I'm going to disagree big time here. The idea of little league is not meant to be an alagory for david and goliath. It's to teach kids the fundimentals of sportsmanship and fair play. This is just the result of adults corrupting a kids game. Can you imagine what these kids think now. Coaches spending tens of thousands of $$$$$$$$s on private investigators just to discredit the team form the bronx.
It's to teach kids the fundimentals of sportsmanship and fair play. This is just the result of adults corrupting a kids game. Can you imagine what these kids think now. Coaches spending tens of thousands of $$$$$$$$s on private investigators just to discredit the team form the bronx.
Do you feel that the bottom line was not that a significant fraud was perpetrated in high visability game, but that people made an effort to expose it? So the exposure is a greater evil than the fraud?
That's kind of the message I was getting this morning from hearing the roundtable on Sam and Cokie and reading at least one column (Wallace Matthews, I think) in the New York Post -- if the Staten Island parents weren't worse than Rolando Paulino and Almonte's dad for paying the private detective $10,000, then there was at least a "moral equivelancy" between the two groups.
Part of that is the press trying to cover its own ass, because a week ago Sunday after the team without Almonte pitching lost to the Floriday squad he threw the perfect game against, the Staten Island parents were being absolutely lambasted by the media for being sore losers and paying all that money to go after Almonte's birth records. There was also a hint of racism in some of the harshest comments about the parents -- that they were only doing this because the team was a group of poor, minority kids from the South Bronx.
The problem is, the press was never going to invest the time and effort Sports Illusrated did this past week when the private detective was paid for after the 2000 LL regional tournament, because Danny wasn't a media star -- who gives a damn about a pitcher on the No. 2 team in the northeastern subsectional, which is I believe where Almonte's team ended up last year. That leaves the onus on the parents if they think (rightly, as it turned out) that they were the victims of a fraud -- they can either do nothing and let it slide, which was unlikly because they knew Almonte would be pitching against their kids again next year, or they could take matters into their own hands and try to prove their suspicions were right. Where they screwed up was in hiring Barney Fife to do the investigation -- a plane ticket to Santa Domingo would have cost way less than $10,000, and since he was born in the Dominican Republic, that would have been the logical place to look for the actual birth certificate.
There's no question $10,000 is a lot of money to spend hiring a private decective for something like Little League Baseball, and it does show some of the excesses parents and coaches will go through to win. But so far, I have yet to read or hear anybody who was blasting the Staten Island parents eight days ago for their actions come back and say "You were right, we were wrong." Most of the press that took after those people would like all they said and/or wrote to disappear down the public's collective memory hole right now.
When the perfect game was pitched and I subsequently heard of the parents and their suspicions I thought they were spoilsports too.
I don't go for this business that if your sports team (including of course, pro sports) is better that somehow you, or your city or state or country is better. But I took a special pride in a New York team excelling in this way, because I felt it showed to the world that New Yorkers could excel at something outsiders would consider nontraditional.
Then it all turns to trash because of a scheming father and a scheming coach and a scheming sponsor who subscribe to the modern theory that winning isn't the most important thing, it's the only thing.
Thr bright spot for me is the Dominican Republic, who could have covered it up under any number of pretexts but did the right thing and reported the truth. At least I can show MY children that there's still honor inthe world.
That's true -- in these days where it seems like so many controversial things seems to be decided not on the merits but on the basis of "are these people on my side or their side," the Dominican officials did go by the rule of law. There a lot of people in the U.S. who wouldn't have been as honest, based on their own personal/political viewpoints.
The really bad thing is that if people think Little League baseball is the end-all and be-all for this "ends justify the means" attitude, they haven't checked out youth baseball lately. National Little League is loing membership, mainly to the 'select team' concept that has grown up over the last 5-10 years.
Separate organizing bodies like the USSSA (one of the two big national softball governing groups) have created their own national youth baseball leagues which have the age requirements but don't have the area residency rules Little League does -- if you can drive some kids 25, 50 or even 75 miles to practice and play with another group of kids, that's OK, and the parents of some kids are even "compensated" (for travel expenses, hotel stays and 'other' things) for allowing their kids to play on certain teams. So a gung-ho manager who is persursive enough can "select" the best two or three players from this area, and the best two or three players from that area and the best two or three players from another area over there and come up with something pretty similar to what Rolando Paulino did with his Dominican pipeline, and it's all legal under these rules.
The "select" leagues even have state and national rankings for teams at the various age groups, just like the college football and basketball polls, with rankins based on head-to-head match-ups, strength of schedule, average margin of victory, etc. And this is for 12- and 14-year-olds, for chrissake.
The national comptition doesn't have the status right now the LL World Series does, but a lot of parents who only want their kids playing with "the best" players -- not a bunch of kids just picked from around the neighborhood who they think are dragging their sons down -- are going for this concept, and in 10 or 15 years you may see it either overtake the Williamsport tournament, or LL may relax its own rules to compete with the "select team" leagues.
The other people who may end up suffering are the kids on future Little League championship teams. There surely will be more age-based challenges, and kids from countries with inadquate birth records may end up disqualified unnecessarily.
>>> Separate organizing bodies like the USSSA (one of the two big national softball governing groups) have created their own national youth baseball leagues which have the age requirements but don't have the area residency rules Little League does -- if you can drive some kids 25, 50 or even 75 miles to practice and play with another group of kids, that's OK, and the parents of some kids are even "compensated" (for travel expenses, hotel stays and 'other' things) for allowing their kids to play on certain teams. <<<
None of this is new. The Purdue football team got its nickname, the "Boilermakers" from a tendency in the early days of having local factory worker "ringers" on their college team. In the ‘50s in Ohio and Pennsylvania, where many lived vicariously through their high school football teams, it was common for the boosters of such public high school powerhouses as Massilon and Steubenville, to recruit players by offering the father of a promising player, a better paying factory job than the one he now held, if he would move into their territory. That system did not collapse until the area turned into a rust belt, and the unskilled factory jobs disappeared. In Indiana, similar arrangements to a lesser extent, occurred with high school basketball teams.
Tom
The tactics aren't new -- I know as recently as 15 and 20 years ago in Texas you could tell which towns had big oil drilling businesses by seeing how many "transfers" who were in 8th, 9th or 10th grades were showing up on the football team because their daddies just got a new high-paying oil company job in town (the oil price plunge of the late 1980s took a lot of steam out of the "pay-dad-for-play" industry). But the age levels at which this crap is being done keeps slipping lower and lower.
Instead of recruiting 14- through 18-year-olds, which is bad enough, now we're talking about recruiting pre-teens and adults who have set up a national ranking system for 12-and-under baseball teams. And without residency rules, you can have parents of "elite" 11- and 12-year-olds pulling their kids out of Little League baseball because it forces their sons to play in tournaments with the other less-talented "riff-raff" in the area.
If you were playing LL baseball when you were 12 years old, did you even think that someone would be ranking your team in comparison with some other team from Florida, California or Missouri? Does there really need to be the equivalent of an AP college football poll for fifth and sixth grade baseball teams?
The concept of determining "elite" baseball players who will compete on their own select teams from the age of as young as 9-years-old and up smacks a lot of the system people in the U.S. used to decry in the Soviet Union and Eastern Block nations, where the top althletes would be "selected" at a ridiculously young age and then prepped to be a superstar in that sport. Granted, there isn't the coersion factor here there was in the Soviet Union, but its moving baseball closer and closer to being like tennis or gymnastics, where pushy parents send their pre-teen kids off to high-priced camps or instructors so they can be programmed for superstardom (and a nice cash dividend for the parents if it works out).
The Danny Almonte situation may make Little League Baseball and the other youth leagues take a closer look at birth certificates next year, but there are other problems out there -- mainly the recruiting ones -- that are going to increase as time goes on.
NYC has had some great baseball players come out of the sandlots . Manny Ramirez, Bobby Bonilla, Joe Torre, The Aspermonte Brothers, Tommy David, Joe Pep back in the 50s and 60s not to mention a few, of course Koufax. Lou Gehrig
"Do you feel that the bottom line was not that a significant fraud was perpetrated in high visability game, but that people made an effort to expose it? So the exposure is a greater evil than the fraud?"
In a sense, yes. Perhaps I'm viewing this in a naive way but I always thought Little League was about kids. What was done by Rolando Paulino and Filipe Almonte was dispicable. and they belong in jail. That having been said, what about the coaches & parents that that spent tens of thousands of dollars to expose the fraud perpetrated by the Rolando Paulino Allstars? What message does that convey tot he children. "If you can't beat them on the field, dig up some dirt on them?" Is winning so important that 10s of thousands of dollars are spent to prove that someone cheated?
Wow ... VERY VALID POINT! Hadn't thought much about that but then again, I'm not a "sports" type. What this means is that while the guys is out in the "big screen room" sucking down beers and chips, I'm out entertaining the wimmens. Third down and nobody left out? I think not. :)
That all said, it is amusing how the media is wallowing in their own filth to such a degree, politicians can gain higher approval ratings for their conduct. And after all, investing in a media outcome is the best bang for the buck there is. Never considered this angle but you're absolutely right ... and to think, Little League USED TO BE "just a game" ... that's what it is to the kids still at least.
Little League is a very serious proposition, which I personally dislike, but that's the way it is. Teams from many countries compete in the Little League World Series.
You need to keep in mind that baseball is a GAME. Winning or losing depends on RULES. A breeze moving a ball an inch or two one way or another may make the difference between a game winning homer or the last out. In a logical world this doesn't seem to make a lot of sense but it is the heart of the GAME.
Maybe the parents who doubted Almonte had base motives, but they didn't simply "dig up dirt." They weren't looking to see if Almonte was boffing a 12-year old girlfriend or smoked a joint. They were looking to see that an overage boy was attempting to compete against younger less physically developed children to steal games.
I have young children (9 and 11) who are actively asking questions about right and wrong in a world filled with moral relativism. I find it far easier to explain to them that the angry parents were untrusting and maybe motivated by spite (not a good thing) but that they took legal means to find out their children were cheated (and they were right) then to affirm the far more fashionable idea that it;s OK to cheat so long as you don't get caught.
They weren't looking to see if Almonte was boffing a 12-year old girlfriend or smoked a joint.
Of course not. Those are things that middle-aged politician do!
I don't disagree with your thoughts about the 'game'. And I certainly object to the fraud perpetrated by the adults in this case. I just don't know if spending 10s of thousands of dollars to prove that an over-age boy was playing a kids' game. To me it's very closely akin to the parent who beats up the coach for cutting his sons' playing time or shooting the umpire who makes a bad call (we've seen cases of both).
I also don't disagree with you when you say your children are asking questions of right and wrong. I still remember what my grandfather wrote in my elementary school autograph book, "Character, above all." I think that if each of us look back we can remember a time when we told our 7 year old that they should say they were 6 so that they could get into a movie for half-price (or onto the subway for free). When viewed in that context, Filipe Almonte did nothing more than what other parents have done - tell their child to lie about their age. My problem with this whole thing is that the adults are so intent on winning - the hell with the kids..... I still say Mr. Paulino and Mr. Almonte & his wife were guilty of abusing Danny by keeping him out of school and making him an illegal alien. Foster care for Danny - Jail for the parents & the coach - justice for all.
BTW: I don't think enough has been said about the politicians (on both sides) who tripped all over themselves to honor these kids and now that the scandal is widening, they are nowhere to be found - Especially the Bronx (shameful) Boro president.
I'm not sure making Danny a constructive orphan is an appropriate punishment for him, despite what his parents might deserve. In the long term, I'm not too worried about him--every major league team is going to be keeping up on his latest address. Was it Barnum who didn't "care what you said about me so long as you spelled my name right"?
You might enjoy this take on the subject from across The Pond in this Times of London piece.
I especially liked their explaining to the British what a "perfect game" is--"the cricket equivalent of bowling out every batsman for a duck."
I couldn't have explained it any more clearly myself.
I don't know. It's more like beating up the other side's coach for bribing the umpire.
Point well taken Dude. My point was that these kids do not come from very affluent surroundings and many are immigrants, and someone has to win. It would have been nice for a New York team composed of those kids winning over more established programs. Believe me, it took a lot on my part to root for them over our California team. But I see where you're coming from, and no argument there. I wonder if subwaysurf is reading these posts to see that colleagues can disagree without being disagreeable. Have a great Labor Day.
But their team won on a cheat and a fraud. Nice message.
That was racist of upper middle class teams spending that much money to investigate. Remember back in 1992 when the Phillipines won the Little League World Series, and they forfitted the championship to long Beach Calif, because of a over age player. It seems that this happens I hate to say when a team is made up of former Spanish Colonies I am trying to say the right thing. It is there culture to cheat. I am not prejudiced against them. My Wife is Filipina, my nephew is married to a Lady from Spain, and my niece was engaged to a South American. It is just their way
That was racist of upper middle class teams spending that much money to investigate. [ ... ] I hate to say when a team is made up of former Spanish Colonies I am trying to say the right thing. It is there culture to cheat. [ ... ] It is just their way.
This doesn't really follow. If it is "their culture" to cheat, then why would the Latin American Little League have banned Rolando Paulino from participation several years ago, after one of his teams from the Dominican Republic went to Puerto Rico several years ago with six (I think they said) overage players?
Plus the government of the Dominican Republic doesn't seem inclined to wink at this practice either.
Money, or lack of it
I have a (semi-serious) solution to this problem with overage Little Leaguers - medical technology!
A few years ago, I read about the problem that Paris and other French cities were having with pickpocket gangs made up of Gypsy children. The police and courts were having a difficult time deciding whether to treat arrestees as juveniles or adults, as reliable birth records were unavailable. Then someone hit upon the idea of having the childrens' wrists X-rayed. Wrist bones supposedly fuse at a very predictable rate and therefore the extent of fusion is a good predictor of age. Sort of like rings on a tree.
Disclaimer: this is just something I read, I can't vouch for the accuracy of the wrist-fusion theory.
". If it is "their culture" to cheat, then why would the Latin American Little League have banned Rolando Paulino from participation several years ago, after one of his teams from the Dominican Republic went to Puerto Rico several years ago with six (I think they said) overage players?
Maybe because he committed a greater sin. He got caught!
>>Are we going to find out that the family is in the US illegally? <<
I hate to break this to you Fred but the Visas for both Danny and his father had expired a short while back.
Well my disappointment is now complete. Now what happens to Danny? He is the one who concerns me, and I'm afraid he can be hurt by all this because of the ignorance and stupidity of adults.
>>> Now what happens to Danny? <<<
He gets a tryout with the bigs two years earlier.
Tom
A 77 mph fastball on a 12-year-old is great. A 77 mph one on a 14-year-old is still very good, but by age 14 there are some phenom kids out there who can bring it over 80. Danny needs to work on his change up and slider before he turns 16...
In 1963 I had a player named Phil Meyer who was once clocked that season at 84MPH. True the machine used was not the best but the young man was such a phenom that someone wanted to see just how fast he threw. He averaged two-and-a-half strikeouts an inning and went 11-0. He also hit 610. He led the league in every hitting and pitching catetgory except home runs and there he was a close second. Yes, there are times a young man can be a phenom and that is why I refused to believe Danny was a 14=year old. But his parents should be jailed and deported for their crookedness and stupidity. It just pisses me off what they perpetrated, and though $10,000 is a lot of money to spend to prove a cheat took place, it is worth it in my opinion if a fraud was committed. We can't keep looking the other way when Clintonian tactics are being used in society.
I agree that while I wouldn't have spent $10,000 to prove a point, if I had a kid who was 11 years old in 2000 and knew that Danny Almonte was going to be back pitching -- illegally, as it turns out -- against my kid next year unless I did something about it, I might try to get a group of like-minded parents to scrape together $100-$200 bucks apeice for some sort of probe, with the league throwing in some of their own money. Given those all-star teams usually have about 14 players, that would be $3,000-$4,000 for some sort of probe.
BTW -- I wonder why nobody has gotten in contact with the SI Little League's $10,000 gumshoe yet? He's probably as embarassed as anyone about the truth coming out, since it doesn't figure to look very good in his resume.
The Gumshoe was probably one of the parents or relatives
>> Now I find out the kid hasn't been enrolled in school for a year >>and a half.
That's OK he did not go to school in the D.R either.
I'd really have to disagree with one statement. This young man has had quite an education. He's learned:
The end justifies the means.
It's okay to lie.
It's okay to cheat.
Heros are winners at sports and not the average 'Joe' that supports his family.
This poor young man has seen his parents lie, forge official documents and remain in this country illegally. His coach is a real sleaze-ball who's done this sort of thing before. If this is not child abuse - there is no such thing. Filipe Almonte and Raulino Paulino should be in ajoining cells at rikers tonight.
>>> He's learned:
The end justifies the means.
It's okay to lie.
It's okay to cheat. <<<
It looks like he has found the key to getting ahead in America. :-)
Tom
He's also found out a 12 year old with a 77 mile per hour fastball is exceptional but a 14 year old - not so much. No matter. Considering the adults in his life, his future is bright.
Heh. You just KNOW he's on a political career path.
Dude: Right on. Couldn't have said it better if I tried. I would go one better. After they serve time at Rikers deport those two rotten excuse for parents, and put Danny into a home where he will be taught decent values of hard work and fair play.
His mom is already back in the DR
I sent an e-mail to CNNSI nominating Danny Almonte for "sportsman of the year." Though an immigrant, and an illegal one at that, he epitomizes what American, and American sports, now stands for:
"When the one great scorer comes to mark against your name, it matters neither who won or lost nor how you played the game. It matters how much you got paid, and how much you got laid."
The Paulino Little League is from a city whose spending on parks and recreation is half the national average, but where George Steinbrenner and Fred Wilpon are about to make off with $1 billion in public money. Danny was just trying to get over, just life the other "winners" in the Vampire State. I'll think about Danny while swallowing a half pound of dust and stepping around the broken glass while refereeing my little girls' soccer games this fall.
Well said. But I'm still saddened to see the adult sports' cynicism filter to down to the youth level. Today's youth are tomorrow's adults, and what principles will they pass on to their children?
There is Right and there is wrong.
From about age 7, children ususally know the difference.
What dread did the willing and unwilling conspiritors go through when the cat was peeking out of the Bag?
What other soiled laundry will float up for public scrutiny?
Visas, green cards, school registration, funding for the playing field? I guess we know why his Mom was having difficulty making some games. I say, guess.
When some thing seems to good to be true.....
Caveat enchilada...beware of the whole enchilada
avid
You all have probably seen the car card that says
Keep a Firm Grip on Your Valuables
(Please Hold Your Child's Hand on the Subway Platform)
This advice is unbelievably dangerous...What good will come of keeping your child's hand on the subway platform? The subway platform is often spit on, defecated on, and urinated on... Placing your child's hand in all this harmful filth is sure to expose them to serious illness as young children are quick to put their hands in their mouth...
what did the mta have in mind when they issued this advice??
I was thinking more of a bad message as "Keep a firm grip on your valuables"...My mind is in the gutter, bye bye!
(Please Hold Your Child's Hand on the Subway Platform)
Hahahaha ... Clearly the study group that signed off on that one had just returned from one of those long Friday liquid lunches. :)
... and I believe you can be arrested for keeping a firm grip on your "valuables" out in public too ... I recall Rudy's heatwave advice (tm) - "Take off all the clothing you can ... err ... legally."
Someone should send a picture of that sign to Jay leno for Headlines...LOL!!!!
Nah, Dave Letterman's right up the street. He could get a half hour out of that one. :)
>>> Keep a Firm Grip on Your Valuables <<<
This flies in the face of modern medical advice for men to wear boxer shorts rather than briefs to avoid sterility from higher temperatures during sperm production. :-)
Tom
I thought of this proposal some time ago:
The introduction of skip stop service on the WMATA Red line at rush hours if not middays. Trains would serve stops in the following fashion:
A TRAINS
Shady Grove*
Rockville
White Flint
Grosvenor*
Bethesda
Tenleytown
Van Ness*
Woodley Park
Dupont Circle*
Farragut North*
Metro Center*
Gallery Place*
Judicuary Square*
Union Station*
Brookland
Fort Totten*
Silver Spring*
Forset Glen
Glenmont*
B TRAINS
Shady Grove*
Twinbrook
Grosvenor*
Medical Center
Friendship Heights
Van Ness*
Cleveland Park
Dupont Circle*
Farragut North*
Metro Center*
Gallery Place*
Judicuary Square*
Union Station*
Rhode Island Avenue
Fort Totten*
Takoma
Silver Spring*
Wheaton
Glenmont*
* indicates ALL STOP station.
The only change I would consider is making White Flint all stop and Grosvenor an A stop.
What do you all think?
Yea good when ever they get all their cars
OR this: have a BROWN line Short line from Grosvenor to Silver Spring.
On one end:
RED line all stops from Shady Grove to Grosvenor then NON STOP until Dupont Circle with the exception of VAN NESS-UDC (Red and Brown stop there).
On the other end:
RED line all stops from Wheaton to Silver Spring then NON STOP until Union Station with the exception of FORT TOTTEN (Red and Brown stop there).
wayne
And how does one maintain a 3 minute interval with the express red line trains?
I was in NYC on Saturday, planning on railfanning with Subtalker faxman. However, long story short, I ended up arriving in LGA at 12:00 instead of 8:00, so I missed meeting up with him. Anyway, I only had 4 hours now to railfan, so I ended up riding only in Manhattan and Queens. I rode the following segments (in order, Italicized means I havn't ridden that section before):
7 - 74th & Bway to Queensboro Plaza
N - to 59th and Lex
4 - to Grand Central
S - to Times Sq, I explored around the shuttle areas at both ends
1 - to 79th St, ate at Ray's Pizza, somewhere near Columbus Ave, I think. About NYC pizza, I'll probably get flamed, but NYC pizza isn't all that. It's good, but nothing to write home about. Sure the slices are huge, but quantity doesn't make up for quality. I thought the crust was good, however. Sao Paulo, Brazil pizza is way better.
C - 81st to 125th
A to 168th
1 - to Columbus Circle, got to see 137th St yard, and 91th St station. The 168th St IRT station is cool. I like the pre-extension ends to the station, very impressive IRT work. That station reminded me of a London Subsurface station like Baker St.
A - to 14th st
L - to 6th Ave, what happened to the slants on this line? I think I rode an R40M.
4 - to Brooklyn Bridge, while riding, I decided to look out the back railfan window of the Redbird I was on, that was a cool experience watching the columns go by and other trains passing with sparks going everywhere. Saw Worth St station. Last time I was there, track workers were working in that area and the lights lit up Worth St nicely. I saw two flouresent lights on the Northbound platform at Worth, what's up with that?
6 - to 51st St. I explored Chambers, saw the abandoned platforms, that's a dirty-ass station. I got my first ride on a R142. The ride is butta smooth. They have the same AC whine as our new MARTA cars. I know the MARTA cars and the 142 share a lot of the same technology. It's also a good looking car, nice lighting and colors. Looking at photo previously, I thought the outside was too bare, but in person it looks good. The front ends are great looking. I didn't like the male voice with his foppish, cheery voice, I want to feel lke I'm on a subway, not a game show. The female voice should do all the annoucements. I went to 51st St to go back to Queens on an E/F, but all service ws going thru 63rd that weekend. OK, and fess up one of y'all, I saw someone at 51st taking pictures of the R142 with his FunSaver camera.
6 - to Grand Central
7 - to 5 Ave, (yeah, I could have went to Queens this way, but I wanted to go thru 63rd) the T/O had his cab open, and I saw a digital speedometer above the T/O, when did the Flushing cars get those?
E - to Jackson Heights, the E was running on this line, after 57th St, you can tell this is new track, because the ride is way smoother.
E - to Jackson Heights, the E was running on this line, after 57th St, you can tell this is new track, because the ride is way smoother.
Are you sure it was the E track? Since you railfanned on SATURDAY, the Queens Blvd. line trains (E,F,R) were ALL running through the 63rd St. Tunnel this weekend and last weekend.
They've been making finalizations for the opening of the tunnel sometime soon, until they finally fix the signals on the 53rd St. and 60 St. tunnels, or so the MTA website had mentioned.
The E during the normal run doesn't go to 57 St. Look on the map for the E route.
: )
Railfan Pete.
I'm quite sure I was on an E train, all E's, F's and R's were diverted thru the 63rd St tunnel. And I know the E doesn't normally go to 57th, that's why I went to 51st on the 6 to beging with.
Holy Pez!
All THAT in 4 hours time!??!
WoW.
That does sound like a lot doesn't it? I come from the school of no patience, so I don't waste my time in any single place.
L - to 6th Ave, what happened to the slants on this line? I think I rode an R40M. There are still Slants on the "L" - just fewer of them. They had 68 slants at one time, now they only have 48. These are #4398-4449.
wayne
I really wanted to go on a slant. Looking at the photos, they look really ugly, but I remember seeing a pair at Coney Island from a distance, and they didn't look that bad. I wanted a close up look to make sure.
1 - to 79th St, ate at Ray's Pizza, somewhere near Columbus Ave, I think.
I believe the one you are talking about is the Ray's at 82nd and Amsterdam.
Yup, that's it.
Ray's is not the best New York City has to offer.
Ray's is to Pizza, as Popcorn is to BBQ.
This series just started this weekend. The graphics of the GG1 and of The Broadway Limited are done beautifully. It's produced by Harry Webber. If you are in marketing, you know who he is.
This who-done-it and why is at
http://www.thebroadwayltd.com
Virginia Division - BMT
I forget. Does Amtrak use Track 15, or is it exclusively LIRR? How about PRR in 1949?
It's one of the shared tracks.
Thanks.
I've now had at least two reports of a young guy, possibly working for Transit, who has been asking around for me (once at Stillwell, once from someone on the C line). This person claims to know me from a website, so I figure it must be someone from either here or the Straphangers. Anyone want to admit to it?
I looked for ye' at Van Cortlandt once or twice
last Spring .... 'twas me THEN but ISN'T me now.
Hey guys, can you please clarify for me:
1. When did the Standards stop running in regular service? I was always under the impression that they were withdrawn in '65, but I have seen photos of them on the "JJ" and "LL" lines dated post '65. When did the last Standard run, and on what line(S)??
2. And the Triplex cars!! Where and when did they end their careers?? Tony
I can't speak for the D-Types, I will leave that to Steve B., their champion and chief mourner; but I CAN give you August 4, 1969 as the last day that a revenue BMT Standard made its way up and down the "M" line. It was a Monday that year, extremely hot (96 degrees) and my Dad, my friend Larry and I were doing one of our all-day subway rides that day. We were in Eastern Division earlier in the day and missed the event; heck, we weren't even aware of it.
wayne
I can't speak for the D-Types, I will leave that to Steve B., their champion and chief mourner; but I CAN give you August 4, 1969 as the last day that a revenue BMT Standard made its way up and down the "M" line.
And they still had many years of useful life left in them. Really sad.
On the other hand, the fact that the Standards were gone before the early 1970's means that none of them were defaced by graffiti. I suppose that's good in a way.
The Triplexes were slaughtered. Plain and simple. Unforgiveable. Inexcusable. Putting the R-16s out of their misery was one thing. Pulling the Triplexes when they were still running beautifully is the other extreme.
The August 1969 date mentioned by Wayne is one I've heard cited before as time of the BMT Standards' last run. However, the last UNREBUILT Standards and the D-Types were withdrawn circa June 1965, after the R32/R32A invasion. Back then, I was riding the Canarsie line (before it was known as the LL) daily to high school and can recall the absence of unrebuilt Standards when school resumed in the fall of '65. No more 2300s or 2800s (except possibly 2899) were left by then.
I'm not sure of the exact date of the D Type's, but June 1965 is close enough. Some were being scrapped by then.
They finished up on the #3, or "T", West End.
The last day of service for the Triplexes was July 23, 1965 - the very same day we left the city for home while on vacation. I still can't believe I didn't see any of them because we rode on the BMT Southern Division during both of our days there. In fact, we even rode on the West End, but it was during midday and our TT train was an R-32 consist.
If it's of any comfort, the first weekday of the "revived BMT" with Q/W service, was July 23rd, 2001.
--Mark
July 23 is still a black armband day in my book.
Some unrebuilt Southern division standards were pulled from the scrap line in 1966 and sent to the Eastern division to run for another 6 months. 48 R16's were sent to the GG because the R1's were on deferred maintenance and falling apart, and the R38's weren't quite arriving in time.
I heard the number of R-16s loaned to Jamaica Yard was 32. They had GG signs spliced into their roller curtains.
Didn't they all have A to GG and 10 thru 16 signs from day 1 ?
Don't know about that. At least some of them had A signs because fifty R-16s did run on the A during the late 50s.
Don't forget, the photos might be fan trips.
The preserved sets of Standards (2390-2391-2392) and D-Types (6019 A-B-C, 6095 A-B-C and 6112 A-B-C) ran a number of fan trips in the mid- to late 1970s and made regular appearances on the weekend Nostalgia Special trains to Rockaway Park or Coney Island. By this time, all of these cars had been retired from regular service.
For the record, one Triplex unit made a few revenue runs on the Culver Shuttle one day in 1974 or 1975.
When exactly will the V run (rush only, weekends) and what again is the deal with the G when is it to Church and Continental?
One of the dispatchers said they will try to turn three lines at Continental at the same time but I can't believe that would be all day.
Will the E/F mix change in favor of the E with the new pick?
The books are supposedly floating around already but I don't have the hook up.
I believe the "V" will be Mon-Fri rush hours and middays, perhaps into the evening up to 9PM or so. I have heard nothing about "G"s to Church; but I have heard of Weekend "G" service to Continental.
ALL OF THIS IS SUBJECT TO CHANGE.
wayne
Doesn't the V train make the G more obsolete
Another candidate for the Darwin award...
Boy, 11, killed by train
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Another candidate for the Darwin award...
Boy, 11, killed by train
It's interesting to note that the boy stepped out of the path of one train into another. As the old saying goes, you can hear only one train at a time, and the one you don't hear is the one that hits you.
It's interesting to note that the boy stepped out of the path of one train into another. As the old saying goes, you can hear only one train at a time, and the one you don't hear is the one that hits you.
This was specially stressed in a Train Safety program held in my elementary school in Edison, NJ. We had it every year, except in 7th and 8th grade in Middle School.
Train safety can give you real helpful tips into "Staying on the Safe Track", or better yet, the tips included "Don't trespass, Railroads are private property".
: )
Railfan Pete.
"Staying on the Safe Track"
Cool! I'm guessing they teach you how to read signals and listen for rail sing.
"Rail sing" isn't a reality these days of CWR (for those who go "huh?" I define as "Continuously Welded Rail") ... MAYBE if something's sloppy, you might be able to hear something from the rails, but it's FAR more than likely you won't. If you want Darwin to punch your ticket, by all means, go dancing in the middle of an interstate at rush hour. You actually MIGHT live if you get hit there.
The TRAIN however always wins and Conductor Darwin is always ready to punch your ticket.
I hear "rail sing" on all the tracks I've been on. The most recent was a few months ago while photographing graffiti. I heard the singing and half a minute later, I saw the frieght train come by.
Hmm. The correct procedure to avoid a double-crossing is to lie down flat in the cess, face down, between the two tracks.
I bet you anyone who has ever had to do this to avoid a double crossing will never trespass again. Maybe as part of OLS demonstrations they should make all the kids go through this.
That procedure doesn't help if you didn't know there was a double crossing -- which, admittedly, after all those times when I'd been out walking along the track (duty purposes), I think that if I was caught off guard by one train, I wouldn't have remembered not to immediately cross over to the next track. This is despite having safety training.
But then, if you had safety training, you would not have been walking in the 4' in the first place -- always walk in the cess, even if it is more difficult to walk there.
Lexcie
Glad to hear the trick works in your neck of the woods - out here, you don't usually hear it and certainly in noisier areas like out on Long Island, you should never count on hearing the rails before a train rounds a curve and is in your face. The safest way is to not be there at all since some tracks are actually down tight and won't make noise.
You can hear the catenary start to sing as a light rail train approaches the station here in Denver. You've got to be careful; those LRVs are very, very quiet. They can sneak up on you.
Want to hear something funny? There's a "no fishing from bridge" sign on Royal Gorge Bridge, which happens to be 1050 feet above the Colorado River. You never know.... There's also a sign which marks the spot where those fellows bungee jumped off the bridge on That's Incrdible.
I'm sure the sign is there for a reason. Only problem is Conductor Darwin's working the Lake Shore today. :)
CRW is MORE likley to sing than jointed as the vibrations have no "gaps" to jump. On the NJT Atlantic City line the rails sing at least 15-30 seconds in advance of and in rear of a train.
Well, I would only offer "DON'T COUNT ON IT" ... as an example, back when Gonerail ruled the Selkirk yards and I'd be hanging out with my buddies down there, if I had a nickel for every time the hairs on my neck would stand on end as a boxcar blew past me on the next track without ANY warning at all ... you wouldn't even hear it coming until the rush of air as it was ON YOU told you a car had just passed within inches of you.
Out where I am, it's VERY VERY quiet (measured A weighted noise levels of 20 dB) and here, you can hear the motors of a loco from 5 miles away. No joke. In a noisier environment, you won't hear doowahdiddydoo until you've been hit. But the general "listen for the rails singing" is genuinely a bad bit of general advice. In many places, it might work. In many others, you won't hear what killed you. Better to be VERY careful and don't venture where you can't see for a good long distance what's coming. If anything obstructs your view, stay put.
No offense, but I've come close to being hit several times and I don't take it lightly. The most dangerous proposition is a stopped train which prevents you from seeing or hearing the other one on the adjacent track coming up full throttle from behind it. I cringe every time I see people getting off a train and crossing the track and I've seen footage of commuters doing this and being HIT ...
...hairs on my neck would stand on end as a boxcar blew past me on the next track without ANY warning at all ...
Very true. A single boxcar being loose humped will not make the rail sing. In all likelyhood, a local -- one engine and a few boxcars -- going at 25mph probably wouldn't make the rail sing either. Listening to rail sound works in high-speed NJtransit commuter territory, but not on quaint locals down in Maine.
...Better to be VERY careful and don't venture where you can't see for a good long distance what's coming.
Anyway you are supposed to walk at least 18' in front of equipment when crossing tracks, because (a) the equipment could suddenly jerk, especially in yard operations, and (b) the engineer is high up and can't see you for the cone of the Acela (or substitute nose of the Genesis as appropriate) unless you are a fair distance in front of the cab. If equipment is obstructing view, then you have to be even more careful.
...I've seen footage of commuters doing this and being HIT ...
Do they still play that Metra video on Operation Lifesaver?
Lexcie
...I've seen footage of commuters doing this and being HIT ...
Do they still play that Metra video on Operation Lifesaver?
Dunno, but you can download the "Traingirl" video at www.crimelife.com (just ignore all the other garbage on the site).
Nah, I'll pass ... seen it enough. But anyone who hasn't SHOULD see it, might make you think twice about how much of a hurry you're in to cross the tracks and get to the parking lot.
>>> but you can download the "Traingirl" video at www.crimelife.com <<<
But you are going to be disappointed if you think this video is about an outlaw biker club. :-)
Tom
Yep ... they still have the woman going 100 feet up in the air after being hit by the train on the other track while she was crossing it ahead of the stopped train. Still has its attention-getting qualities. Nothing like fresh kilt young female meat in the air to get a point across. Sad it requires that to GET the point across tho'.
And yes, since Selkirk is a classification yard, there's all sorts of surprises moving all around you. When you're tanking up a loco, you don't hear the one coming on the adjacent track until it's on you, same for the loose cars being consisted all around.
When out on the "real railroad" and you have to walk your train, first thing you do is get on the radio and ask the tower what's on the adjacent and WHERE. :)
When out on the "real railroad" and you have to walk your train,
"Walk your train"? I think I have had a visual of this out west at Barstow Classification Yard. What is it exactly?
What does "rail sing" mean?
: )
Railfan Pete.
It's a tinging sound that comes off the tracks when a train is coming. The train causes the rails to vibrate. On subways, sometimes the third rail has a "twang" sound to it when a train is approaching. It can get real loud when the third rail switches sides and the shoe first hits the rail.
It's a tinging sound that comes off the tracks when a train is coming.
Aha. These can be well found on all parts of the NEC, especially with catenary wiring. I hear them all the time. The NEC is probably the best place in the NE part of the U.S. with "rail sings".
34 St. Penn Station - 8th Av. Subway has twanging sounds on the 3rd rail. I hear them all the time on the two (local and express) rails heading UPTOWN. I hear more on the express rail than the local.
Thanks. : )
Railfan Pete.
My favorite spot for "Rail Singing" is 59th Street/Lex uptown IRT express.
Peace,
ANDEE
Well, Rob took care of the "singing," so the "walk the train" bit simply means that when you are about to take out a train, you apply brakes, check your hoses between cars and make sure the brakes are clasped. You do this to ensure that you don't have fouled hoses that would cause the rear of the train to push you when you need to stop. You make sure FRED is alive and well on the rear and talking to you radio. Last chance to spot brake or wheel defects before you depart. Sorta like what a prudent driver would do checking tires and lights on a walkaround of a car, except trains are longer. :)
The TRAIN however always wins and Conductor Darwin is always ready to punch your ticket.
Only if you don't have any offspring.
Heh. A tainted gene pool tends to be a self-solving problem even over multiple generations. Conductor Darwin has no plans to be retiring soon. :)
A girl on her bike did it on the MBTA once at an RR crossing. The second train, hidden from the first, sounded its horn, and if she had paid close attention and known about the Doppler effect she might have realized a second train was approaching. She thought the danger was over. She's dead because of it.
The more I read about this, the more I am thinking one day this might happen to me even if I am doing something perfectly legit on RR property. I have been caught off-guard by a train passing another in the same direction while I had been standing by the trackside. The fact is, you can't see another train if one train is obscuring the view, even if you were standing on a station platform.
Lexcie
That's correct - but you're safe so long as you respect the platform boundaries, don't violate lowered crossing gates, obey posted rules and use some common sense.
Define Darwin award?
Quoting from www.darwinawards.com, the "Darwin Awards celebrate the theory of evolution by commemorating the remains of those who improved our gene pool by removing themselves from it in really stupid ways."
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
That's what I thought it was.
It's just not particulary funny in this case.
I actually find it extremely amusing -- that is exactly what the boy deserved. If I got hit because I was walking on the RoW, I would consider myself a Darwin Award winner. My mother might argue otherwise, but that's only because she doesn't want to admit how crappy her genes really were.
No sympathies for the boy or his family; all sympathies to both of the engineers.
I've been in a cab (not operating) when it hit a stag and I felt pretty crappy afterwards. I couldn't imagine what it feels like to hit a PERSON and being the OPERATOR of the train... although, NJT engineers have probably seen enough of it to be only slightly shaken.
...although, NJT engineers have probably seen enough of it to be only slightly shaken.
Somehow I doubt it. My older son hit a pedestrian with his car about a year and a half ago; the inebriated young woman, dressed all in black, stepped out from behind a double-parked truck (in the other lane) on an unlit street directly into my son's path at 3 AM. Fortuntately, he was only driving about 20 MPH at the time because he was approaching a stop sign. She landed on his hood but survived - multiple broken bones, concussion, etc. He STILL won't drive at night unless it's a drastic emergency.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
"NJT engineers have probably seen enough of it to be only slightly shaken."
I don't know about NJT, but Metra trains have grade crossing accidents pretty frequently, and there's an engineer on my line who blows the horn long and loud at each and every grade crossing, however minor, like the Devil himself were chasing him. I think he's STILL shaken up from some past grade crossing incident.
The problem is that in most creatures with brains, the avoidance of danger is NOT a genetic trait.
Actually, that is not entirely true. It has been shown that a lack of sense of responsibility is indeed a genetic trait. Here is what I mean: a macho dad has a macho son, even if the son had been separated at or near birth from the dad. Macho and bold guys are more likely to trespass (thinking they can always avoid the train in time) and are more likely to play chicken with the train. This is a simple argument but it can be backed up with sophesticated research data if you want to go research it.
According to the Asbury Park Press, the family of the deceased has filed a wrongful death lawsuit against New Jersey Transit, alleging that NJT knew that people fished from the bridge and did nothing to prevent them from entering on the bridge. (Apparently the NO TRESPASSING signs, in both English and Spanish, aren't enough... in fact, the presence of the sign in Spanish is being cited as evidence that NJT knew "poor people" were out there on a regular basis.) At a news conference yesterday, a person speaking on behalf of the family suggested that NJT should have constructed walkways on both sides of the bridge so that people could safely fish from it, and that their failure to do so was the cause of the young boy's death.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Or perhaps NJT should have taken a far more proactive stance. Position armed guards with orders to shoot to kill trespassers. Sheesh.
Please don't let it come to be revealed that
this Darwinite didn't know how to read (a sign!)..
Please tell me you're joking.
I knew people were stupid, but that's a gaffe of Biblical proportions.
If you ever wondered why engineers SIT on a horn as they approach the white "W" signs, here's yet another example. Kid gets hit, engineer gets the third degree, railroad gets sued, police and federal inspectors edmand paperwork and here's the outcome. Happens all the time.
It's Ridley Pearson's latest novel about a railroad saboteur seekiing revenge on a rail company after his wife and kids are killed at a railroad crossing.
I'm halfway through it and can't put it down...I highly recommend it!!
I'm halfway through it and can't put it down...
Are you sure you didn't spill some glue? :-)
You must be a good one-handed typist... :-):-)
(Sorry, it's Monday morning, the sun is shining, I've got a big dumb dog curled up at my feet, and the caffeine is starting to kick in...)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Sept. 3, 1963, R33 9306 in its spiffy Bluebird paint rode a flatbed trailer through the streets in New York's Labor Day parade:
http://www.nycsubway.org/slides/r3336wf/r33-9306.jpg
http://www.nycsubway.org/slides/r3336wf/r33-9306a.jpg
[First my commitment to my mother, who made this trip possible, and my brother came along with us, too.]
We were trying to get to Queens via the Flushing train because the Queens Blvd. train would not make it on time, especially because of the rerouting.
We arrive at the 34 St. - Penn Station 2 and 3 Express platforms. There were the usual Ticker signs with color which read: "P l e a s e S t a n d B a c k F r o m t h e S t a t i o n P l a t f o r m f o r y o u r S a f e t y." And some other messages. They are found on both #1 and #9 platforms and the center island platform for the express tracks.
We were greeted by a #1 train UPTOWN local trundling in from New Lots. The train served passengers, and ready for its trip to 42nd St. - Times Square. After a few minutes, (which seemed like 20 minutes), we saw a #1 train DOWNTOWN and UPTOWN in both ways local.
URGENT NOTE: There was a piece of torn spiral notebook paper on on of the I-beams which "messily" said in black ink: "ALL UPTOWN TRAINS ARE ON LOCAL TRACK".
Then, right after the #1 trains left, I saw a #3 train rolling down the Downtown Express track at Penn Sta. Of course, as one may know, 3 trains TERMINATE at 42nd St. Times Square for passenger service. The train was empty when it came in.
When it fully was in the platform and it stopped, the Motorman applied the Emergency Brake and just stood there for about 5-6 minutes. Since the #2 UPTOWN train arrived, (we boarded Redbird car #9170 with good A/C!), I didn't wait to see the fate of that #3 train.
On our return trip!
Back on the Flushing line to 42nd St. Times Square, I noticed ANOTHER unusual EXPERIENCE. After encountering a couple of #1 trains on the UPTOWN local track at 42nd St., I finally recalled to myself that the #1 train was scheduled TOO OFTEN, compared to the #2 and #3 lines.
While waiting for a DOWNTOWN train to 34 St., a #3 train pulls up on the DOWNTOWN express platform full of passengers.
The T/A announces it as "Last stop" and with some special announcements over the station's P/A about the advisories info. After the doors opened and the EMERGENCY BRAKE pulled, the passengers exited and a T/O guided the passengers that this train "wasn't going anywhere".
Then the lights flickered in quick, rapid 1/2 second increments, about 4 times. This also happened on an N train which was to terminate at 42nd St. Times Square long weekends ago, except in different variations.
1) Can anyone tell me why the lights flicker in terminuses like this?
I also noticed that the conductor on board this train was sticking his arm out of the window as the train was pulling in.
2) Does anyone have any insights regarding this?
After the #3 train discharged all its passengers, the doors closed and the motors shut off. Then around 5 minutes later, it released its air brake and headed towards PENN STATION!
3) Does ANYONE have any insights regarding this?
The rest of our trip was normal. We went to Penn Station to catch our train back to NJ.
It was a good experience! Answers and responses would be greatly appreicated! (Sorry for a long post)
: )
Railfan Pete.
I don't think those are really emergency brakes.
Lights flicker is to scare off any remaining passengers still on the train.
I don't think those are really emergency brakes.
Yes they are. Emergency brakes are also used to give power to keep the train still even if the Motorman has let go of the regular brake.
Lights flicker is to scare off any remaining passengers still on the train.
I appreciate your satire but I don't think so. "Scare" was probably the oversimplicated word.
: )
Railfan Pete.
I appreciate your satire but I don't think so. "Scare" was probably the oversimplicated word.
Have you been watching too many Presidential speeches?
I am not really a buff er rail historian but most of you guys are I thought you knew all this stuff since you know stuff like car number 2311 was reused twice and the dates of their major over haul.
1) lights on and off because someone hit the main lighting switch to give a hint to the passengers.
2) The conductor really should point to the board when the train stops. There are boards in staions near the C/O position that let the c/o know the train is properly bearthed in the station. If it was a light train (no passeengers) it is really not as important as you will not be opening doors.
3) I am in the IND but I would bet the train went south to relay to the NB track at 42st. So southbound you get rid of the customers at 42, run light to 34th dump the train, change ends (if you do not have a switchman) or even change crews then go to 42 on the uptown side.
Before anyone asks they do not do this on 34th and 6th because the next cross over point is W4th st and it would likely require more crews and more trains to do. If southbound service ended at 42nd they could make the relay the same way as on the 3 but people would have to take 3 train to go from Stillwell to the Bedford.
>"After the doors opened and the EMERGENCY BRAKE pulled"
He applied the emergency brake using the deadman (the train can recharge) you pull the EBV you create a leak of air, put yourself closr to deafness and get this hissing sound until you reset the cord.
>"I finally recalled to myself that the #1 train was scheduled TOO >OFTEN, compared to the #2 and #3 lines"
No way, the 1 is hopping uptown and gets tons of action at 59th st and 96th and a few other points in up to around 168th.
I was going to post corrections, but you caught on! Thanks for the info.
: )
Railfan Pete.
URGENT NOTE: There was a piece of torn spiral notebook paper on on of the I-beams which "messily" said in black ink: "ALL UPTOWN TRAINS ARE ON LOCAL TRACK".
It was supposed to be DOWNTOWN, not UPTOWN.
Then, right after the #1 trains left, I saw a #3 train rolling down the Downtown Express track at Penn Sta. Of course, as one may know, 3 trains TERMINATE at 42nd St. Times Square for passenger service. The train was empty when it came in.
One of the car #'s was #2000.
While waiting for a DOWNTOWN train to 34 St., a #3 train pulls up on the DOWNTOWN express platform full of passengers.
The two middle car #'s were #1913, and #2130.
: )
Railfan Pete.
any one know how many r142/r142as are in service
Amtrak is considering the possibility of restoring the Broadway Limited in NYC->Chicago service. Cutbacks in the Boston section of the Lake Shore would free up viewliners and dining cars that could then be routed to the Broadway. The B'way would take the faster Cleveland route to Chicago and the Pennsylvanian would then be transferred to the B&O route.
(1) Who told you this?
(2) Why are they cutting back on the Boston section of the Lake Shore? I was under the impression that train is always fairly full, although recently I've seen it run with just a few coaches -- maybe two coaches, one viewliner, and two baggage cars. My admittedly one-shot impression is that the two coaches are almost always running at capacity.
(3) I'd love to have the Pennsylvanian run via the B&O. This means I can go to Fostoria for the weekend from here. But, I don't believe you, especially after Skyline Connection fell through -- unless you tell me where you got the information.
Lexcie
Now If they change the name of the Lake Shore Limited to the 21st Century Limited,
Having ridden the Lake Shore several times in recent years, and having experienced its propensity to stay in Albany/Rensselaer for many hours westbound, one might call it the 19th Century Limited.
That is Not being considered. The 3R's gets Viewliners in October, and that is all. They need 42 on any given day out of 49 - thius will make it 45.
The only thing one can look forward to is Amtrak renegotiating the M&E contracts on the Pennsylvanian so that it can be reschedules by 6 hours and run overnight NYP-PGH. It is now a useless train for passengers, and Amtrak is trying to make some of their long-haul trains more suitable for passengers now that Ed Ellis is gone. The M&E business unit has disrupted LD trains so much that it no longer considered profitable considering the damage it has done to ridership.
Check out E-bay 1184908014 for the item. As of last check it is up to $406.99.
Please Note: I am not connected in any way with the seller.
That would likely be from a 1300 BU if it's authentic BMT.
Well - I won it!! - NOW to sneak it past the spouse ;-)
"Well - I won it!! - NOW to sneak it past the spouse ;-) "
Would you tell the spouse how much you sank into this "el" car seat ? If she is supportive of your hobby, that's alright. But if she isn't, prepare for a tongue lashing on what the money spent on the seat would have bought.
Maybe you should hire Ralph Kramden to sneak it past the spouse. He was a legend in sneaking things past Alice !!!
Bill "Newkirk"
Several years ago I was at the King of Prussia Trolley show with her - she doesnt know much about trains but she does know that I'm after anything connected to the BMT...Well she saw a BMT entrance globe (the octagonal shaped one with the word SUBWAY down the sides) and positioned herself in such a way that i would not notice it as we walked up and down the aisles. Well - I made a sudden turn and saw it - then after some hesitation she gave in and let me buy it! So I must say she is a good sport!! -- still I don't think i'll tell her the REAL price of the seat - i'll kind of move the decimal one place to the left ;-)
Congratulations on your win! If your wife asks, do what I do, say "It followed me home. Can I keep it?"
When my wife and I were in our courting days, she bought me some nice train/history gifts unbidden, including a great railroad lantern and the four volume "History of Brooklyn & Queens..".etc.
Of course that was before we were married. Now she bristles whenever I note that the backyard is 100' feet wide and a BMT Standard is only 67' long...
Hey, I'd only have to move the kids' swing set a few feet! ;-)
Paul, maybe you can make a deal with the LIRR to store your BMT on one of their many unused tracks, such as the south track at Greenlawn Station. Why not, after all the LIRR can now justify the expense of having raised the platform and never using it.
Heh. I've got 7 acres. I've got the room for a WHOLE train here. :)
Heh. I've got 7 acres. I've got the room for a WHOLE train here. :)
And you don't have a train on your 7 acres because...?
Lack of iron being one (though that's easily found at the bottom of the hill) but I suppose the real reason why I don't have a whole train here is that I can't afford the shipping. And there's a power substation here too ... everything I need, all you add is a train.
Maybe Heypaul can do a telethon ...
We need to round up a train of R-1/9s so Kev can relive the CPW express dash anytime he wants to.:-)
Not on *THIS* hill ... we're talking breaker trips, towns and villages dimming out as the throttle comes to parallel ... but thanks for the thought. Heh. I *do* know of a lovely stretch of doubletrack that goes on for miles around where I am. Do the braid to the rail and drop a rectifier and we can go for a REALLY nice ride. Assuming of course Dougie and Thurston and some of the other shovel-leaners are willing to do a FARKLOAD of track work. :)
Price is up to $455 as of this posting, with the high bid being a SubTalker... also one of the other bidders. (I'm not involved in any way... not my kind of collecting.)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I saw that; too pricey for me - I wonder if it's from one of the MS - if it is, that would be a real find! There's also a B division roll sign for sale and Charles Fiori, of course, has dibs on it.
wayne
Say, what is Charles up to these days? We haven't heard from him in eons.
It sure looks like one of the seats we as kids would flip back over after the conductor would flip it over at Metropolitan Ave in one of the 1300 gate cars....wish i could afford it.
I bet Karl B shares the same feeling.
I watched that auction, and was surprised at how high the bidding went!
What about the shipping? Doesn't seem like it will fit in a FedEx box. ;)
I'm picking it up in person tomorrow on the way home from the King of Prussia show. Hope it fits in my trunk ;-)
I know it's too late to mention this now, but take out the bench seat in your car, replace it with you-know-what.
Last friday, I was riding MARTA during rush hour, and at Five Points we sat at the station for five minutes with no explaination. When we finally left, a woman pressed the button and said,
"are we going to be doing this for every stop?"
"no"
"well next time, you can fucking inform us why we are stopped like that"
I can only imgine what would be said over call buttons in NYC.
"My buck fifty bought this armadillo??"
Hmmm, I wonder what they are doing to discourage this. Not so important in WMATA, but if some stupidass person does it on commuter rail or some untripped transit line and the T/O runs a signal...
Lexcie
Does it call the T/O or the conductor? Assuming MARTA isn't an OPTO system (I don't know, haven't ridden it), the call button probably contacts the conductor, since the T/O is supposed to concentrate on the road and the conductor's job is to deal with passengers anyway.
MARTA is OPTO.
On the one hand, the T/O perhaps should have informed the passengers of the reason for delay. On the other hand, the T/O showed professionalism and restraint in not retorting the woman's rudeness.
And further demonstrated restraint by not pushing the blue button in the cab which applies current to the whoopie cushion of the customer pushing the call button.
The SubTalkers who participated in the Chicago trip discovered that the motorman call button is far too easy to push accidentally. Signs near the button ask the rider to answer the motorman's query if the button was pushed accidentally. I rode a Red Line train midweek (before the SubTalk trip - I was in Chicago on a business trip) and the motorman entered every car and asked whether someone in that car had pushed the button. The train lost several minutes and of course encountered crowds on each subsequent platform. I mentioned this incident to Irwin Davis during our SubTalk trip on Sunday and he said that he might have been the motorman. I didn't recognize him at the time, but later realized that in fact it had been chicagomotorman who entered the car and asked about the button.
During last Sunday's fan trip I noticed that the M trains were 8 cars long. Since this is only a shuttle operation, is there some compelling reason to run such long trains? The platforms and trains didn't appear to be that crowded unless something was in the works later in the day. I expected to see 4-car M's and was shocked to see 8-car trains. Any good explanation?
Because the M is not an OPTO line. The M is a senior pick line if they tried OPTO there, there would be a riot.
PS several C/O's won't even open the rear of the train on the shuttles so in that respect it is a short train.
I believe when the R143s come on the line, then they WILL try to OPTO the "M"ary.
The 143's will hit the L first. The order is for 212 cars or there abouts. During rush they run about 13 trains per hour and the running time is around 37 mins with recharging after dumping at terminals a train would be back at its starting place in an hour and a half so you would need 19 train sets to run the line plus a set of spares and maybe two gap trains add that they plan on adding trains to the line to reduce headways with thee new signals they are installing and almost all the cars are accounted for.
Unless there is another order the M will be safe from OPTO baring some union blunder. Actually it's a union blunder that I think is likely.
What kind of union blunder? I don't see how the union can stop OPTO on the M whenever sufficient cars are in the "east". Past practice will be the TA's reasoning. OPTO is on the Franklin shuttle, and the weekend G line already and we'll find out for sure if it will be 24/7 on the G when the new pick books come out in couple of weeks. The union blunder was made by the Willie James regime over the paltry $2.00 additonal per hour OPTO pay. Considering they saved a c/r salary, the TA had a great victory. Off topic: the 25 cents additional per hour the TA pays drivers of articulated buses is an insult and slap in the face to the drivers thanks to the James regime. A large pay increase in these areas will hopefully be realised at the bargaining table in 15 months.
Well first there are no sufficient number of 143 cars on the horizon so the M is 'safe'. OPTO is the future as well as reduced numbers of agents but the time frame is out there.
>The union blunder was made by the Willie James regime over the >paltry $2.00 additonal per hour OPTO pay. Considering they saved a >c/r salary, the TA had a great victory.
That's what I thought at first but it was really a TA blunder if the difference was $6-8 many T/O's would have broken ranks with CO's. As it is you can get a piece of OPTO at file 2800 or so (I really don't remember). At $6-8 many T/O's would fight for those spots and want more slots like the M, Euclid even more shuttles, heck you can OPTO half the lines between 1 and 5 am and for $8 the T/O's would drill their own trains. For omly $2 most T/O's would fight to save jobs.
As for union blunders I admire ND's dedication but Tim and Ed did not make a good impression on me and in fact most of what they have done re:the open competitive people will not help solidarity. I think ND is dying for a strike and it will be a disaster on all fronts. I did not cancel my COPE yet but I am truly sorry I joined the union, I realize there is no difference between joining and not but I am just sick of them only paying attention to certain members at the expense of others.
There are too many rumors swirling around that the M line will go OPTO on the weekends. They'd only need 2 1/2 R143 trains (20 cars) to do it. I'd wait and see if I were you.
We've all heard of fantasy football and fnatasy baseball. Talk of OPTO on the M is indeed pure fantasy for the simple reason that the mere possbility of it happening is quite a few years away.
Bill, how's your new assignment treating you?
Survived the first day as I was on vacation for the first week of the line pick.
Good point! No need to drill lots of trains because you just do it Friday night and Monday morning. One or two switching jobs and you replace a weekend full of C/O's.
Shouldn't the pick be in union hands for review about now? I thought they get it 2 weeks in advance to review for errors.
Do you Guys think they Really read the pick book? Or do you think they turn to the last pages and look up the man hours?As long as there the same or more they could care less even though Jobs are going from 9 and change to straight 8. I call it more for 8 , On the 6 line 3 trips and a layup for 8.ND is really doing alot, they suck all they want to do is strike. F them I get pissed everytime I look at my check to see what they steal from me.
Of course they do maybe not too well but they do. They check for lunch, comfort time (a sham), % of penalty jobs and significant speed ups. It is mostly stewards that do it.
As for the money, they do have more problems than the HBT. James' people all paid themselves massive pensions and then made lumpsum payouts to themselves right before the next ballon payment is due on the building.
Everyone complains but no one is willing to stand up and complain about things like bad supplements in writing.
As for runs anything over 6hrs in the cab should be a penalty job and 7 hrs should pay at least 9.
Who would riot? The crews (if they don't like it the TA sez "too bad"); the customers; the local Assembly Person Cathy Nolan who has a lot to say when it comes to funding for the TA? The line is high seniority on the midnite & AM, but the PM is high seniority no more. And with the expanded service, some of the senior people will go elsewhere come the November pick if the current schedule stays put. There is only 1 c/r who I know of who uses 1/2 train and that is one of the midnite guys.
The union is more likely to stick up for senior guys getting the shaft and yes the customers would make noises. The T/A can get away with OPTO in poor neighborhoods more easily than in more affluent ones. The D train line supervisor lives in fear of all the crazy complaints on the Brooklyn portion of that line. Met is not rich but compared to Lefferts or Far Rock they are millionaires.
I did mean midnight when I talked about not opening, you could not get away with that on days.
There are some non-senior T/O's but the conductors seem like 10 year men and up.
This has been discussed here in the past. For safety reasons, 4 cars would be adaquete. But car equipment shuns on cutting and sdding cars because they feel that this creates problems with t/o & c/r indication. And RTO doesn't want to spend the money in having the additional personel required with the additional train movements. Right now due to construction at Fresh Pond Yard, the only tracks availiable for storage are tracks 1 to 6 and 19. IF short M trains were operated, there would be no room in the yard to store the extra cars. Putting them somewhere else would cause additional personel expenses to send the cars away and to bring them back.
Well if the MTA was slick they would just start and end more M jobs from Manhattan using mainline for storage or 9th Ave lower if they ever finish whatever the heck they are doing down there. There would be little additional cost as there are already place to sign on down there and little deadhead time is involved.
We both agree it's going to happen we just disagree on why it hasn't.
I was on an Manhattanbound 'A' train Saturday night and noticed that there was a mixing of R-32's and R-38's on a local 'C' train. I never see those types of cars mixed like that (Even though they look almost the same). Any reason why this is done? Car shortages maybe??
Anthony
"I was on an Manhattanbound 'A' train Saturday night and noticed that there was a mixing of R-32's and R-38's on a local 'C' train."
I have seen that kind of mix on the (A). But have'nt seen or heard it on the (C).
Probably no rhyme or reason to it. When making up a train, they don't care if its an R-32 or R-38, as long as they couple up. When the cars were fresh from GOH back in the late 80s, they didn't mix them because of warranty. This is what I was told.
Bill "Newkirk"
Careless yardmaster.
Fascinated Railfan.
The R-32s were most likely R-32s that had GE do their GOH. They're mechanically similar to the R-38s and are treated as R-38s (i.e. they are mixed in commonly with R-38s).
Dan
Regular (M/K) GOH'ed R32's are regularly mixed with R38's. I can see doing it in an "emergency" in the sense of being uable to make full service otherwise, but lately it happens far too often. The yardmasters should know better.
Perhaps it's nostalga for a return to the 1970s, when SMEE cars were seemlingly dealt out to train consits like cards in a game of poker -- an R-16 here, an R-10 there, a pair of R-42s for you, a pair of R-27s for you...
What difference does it make? Does performance suffer or is it just an aesthetic issue? (I find the mixed R-40M/R-42 consists even more aesthetically displeasing.)
The M/K R32 and the R38 do not have the same number of "pins" in the electric portions.
It's been a while since I last posted a reply (enjoying all the beautiful weather here on the Left Coast), but I did get a chance to visit some friends/family the other week back in NYC. Some random thoughts:
1. Since I flew into JFK, I decided to take the A train to the city. As a boy growing up in Bklyn I never took the JFK express. But this connection to Manhattan made me a believer. Express into Manhattan for a $1.50 beats the shuttle vans for more $ by far! I had only been on the Fulton St line once before in my life, so this was great rainfanning and passing stops I had never seen before.
2. I was aware of the bridge flop so I knew I couldn't take the D to Sheepshead Bay anymore to visit my mom. So I ventured to 57St-7 Ave to take that new Q. There were none that day and there were no signs telling me the Q terminated at Times Square! Man, I waited for 30 minutes or so until someone on the loud speaker mentioned it! Boy the MTA is getting lax on telling passengers about changes - I saw no signs or notices on the platform. Anyways, I enjoyed the express ride down. Seems the Q is faster than the D was on 6th Ave. I'm convinced that the Brighton line should permanently be a Broadway express!
3. One day I had a few hours to myself so I went rainfanning. After living in SF, it is a treat to go back to your roots and enjoy the NYC subway. I had read that the redbirds were on the way out, so I thought to treat myself to one more 2 train ride on them. Seems luck was no my way that day at Atlantic Ave. since only those new trains (I forget the number R-???) were on. So I took one. It was weird - too clean, no railfan window to really speak of and it talks to you (e.g. Next stop - Hoyt Street)! Maybe I was being to nostalgic...
4. Someone needs to get a waterhose! The smells in the subway in August are a bit much! Maybe I've been away from NYC too long.
ScottinSF
Tokens or Metrocard, Scott?
South Ferry-
I used a token at JFK - the metrocard machine was out! :-)
ScottinSF
They should have let you in for free.
Are you giving your opinion or your understanding of actual TA policy?
(If the former, I agree. If the latter, I'm surprised.)
Too bad, no surprises for you today, but agreement there is.
Glad you had a good time.
The Broadway express is here to stay. The Sixth Av express across the bridge will return in 2004.
I finally remembered what caused me to render those misleading information about the R142(A)'s.
IT WAS ABOUT.COM!!!
I read a stupid article about the R142's on About.com's website, and THEY were the ones who mentioned:
1) IT IS IMPOSSIBLE TO FORCE OPEN DOORS ON the R142's BECAUSE THEY'RE ELECTRONICALLY OPERATED.
2) R142's CYCLE POWER BACK INTO THE THIRD RAIL AS TO REDUCE THE HEAT GIVEN IN TUNNELS.
As a result of this stupidity, even the editor didn't know the real facts, I'm NOT GOING TO VISIT THAT IDIOTIC SITE AGAIN.
It has a bunch of misleading facts and satire that is just FALSE.
I won't take it as a joke, as I was trying to learn something about them for the first time, and THIS!!
/: (
Railfan Pete.
Actually, one of those statements (#1) comes from the description of the R110 test program page on this site (click here). But it's not the fact that they're electronically operated that keeps them closed, it was a change to the drive mechanism. I don't know if that carried over from the R110's to the R142's.
As for #2, that sounds like a description of regenerative braking which the R142's are supposed to be equipped with. I've heard that it is disabled until some modifications can be made to the power supply system. Try a google search for regenerative braking to see how it works.
Anyone hear how the train converted to regenerative braking did? THe test was over 7/31/01 wasn't it?
david... i suppose i should read other people's posts, but i am really surprised to hear that the regenerative braking system is currently disabled... that was one bright spot to the new equipment that i liked...
Paul-- that's what I've *heard*. Whether that problem has been resolved yet or not I don't know.
Do you even know what satire MEANS?
YES I DO American Pig. I was drilled in with the subject in my English class during the summer. We read a couple of stories with "satire", and I know what it means from a college professor.
It's an exaggeration of facts, preferably in a downward or a negative way to society.
And don't tell me it's wrong.....
Railfan Pete.
It's an exaggeration of facts, preferably in a downward or a negative way to society.
No, it isn't. Satire is an attack on human deficiencies and frailties, using irony or wit, and is frequently humorous. A machine cannot be satirized, and I can't imagine how your reference, if it was "an exaggeration of facts" could be considered satire, even if machines could be its subject.
My Folk Life Festival Photos are online. Please point your browsers to http://www.geocities.com/otpnycpics2/folklife.htm to view the photos.
Judging by the atmosphere in the photo, it looks like a hot humid day. I was there on Sat. July 7th and the day was cooler and dry.
I believe that the list of car numbers for the first Redbirds to be sunk had #9056 on the list. If that's true, that's a shame. That car was gorgeously redone for a static display.
Bill "Newkirk"
It was June 27 that I attended.
"It was June 27 that I attended."
I guess that would make sense. When I was there, the TA T/O on #9056 said the weather a week earlier was unbearable.
Bill "Newkirk"
I see they hooked up three battery chargers in series to get the buzzers and headlights to work. What else did they manage to get running while on display?
That's it. The doors may have been connected to the packs as well.
Yes, the doors on the right side of the car were opening and closing when I was there on July 4. The lady operator would call out "doors closing, please stand clear". Everyone was playing around with the signboxes as well with all sorts of different destinations.
Which monkey decided to cancel the W all weekend without bothering to post anything on the service advisories page?
Sure, the Stillwell-bound N was operating over the West End. That doesn't mean there's no Pacific-bound service at all on the West End! In fact, the poster even directs passengers to the W.
The N (and R, I assume) also ran express from 59th Street to Pacific Street. According to the announcement, the express run was supposed to begin only at 36th Street. With the scheduled N diversion, backtrackers had only the R to rely on.
In addition to being a major inconvenience and costing travelers a lot of time (even more time than they may have allocated if they check the advisories in advance), this is also an ADA issue. Only the W platform at Stillwell is accessible. Then again, that elevator is out of service so often that I suppose it doesn't matter.
Announcements were good, for the most part (with one exception -- see my next post).
We don't call it the "Weak and Weary" for nothing! I guess we can add "Where Is It" to the list of nicknames.
waaaaayne
I rode HBLR out to West Side Ave on Saturday for the first time in about a year. I noticed that the pedestrian overpass bridge to the park-n-ride lot was built. Are there still plans for extending service from West Side Ave. to Route 440 ?
At 34th St/Bayonne, I checked out the finished pedestrian overpass to that park-n-ride lot. Did anyone notice a small office on the second floor by the elevator on the parking lot side ? Is this for security or a dispatcher ?
Bill "Newkirk"
Are there still plans for extending service from West Side Ave. to Route 440?
As far as I know, there was not supposed to be any extension past West Side Ave. I know of an extension past 34th Street in Bayoone to 22nd Street, but certainly not of any extension past W. Side Av.
As far as an office on the second floor by the elevator, IDK about that.
Cleanairbus
hybridbus@aol.com
carlwal@hotmail.com
The 22nd St station is already under construction, I believe.
http://www.ci.jersey-city.nj.us/docs/lightrailmap.htm
I've seen a similar map, only the colors were different and areas 1, 2, 3, and 4 were labeled 'Phase I' between 34th St, West Side Ave, and Exchange Place; Area 3 to Hoboken was labeled Phase IIA and Phase IIB (A as far as Newport, B from Newport to Hoboken)
The future expansion area to Vince Lombardi was labeled as Phase III, UNFUNDED, from 34th to 22nd as Phase III (Funding Approved). The Area 5 wasn't shown, and the extension to 440 was shown as Proposed.
-Hank
Maybe someone else can figure this out. I can't. It happened yesterday evening.
I'm trying to get from 42nd Street to 86th Street on the 1.
I pass up a crowded R-142 trainset on the 2 so I can avoid waiting at 72nd Street, or at least so I can get a seat on the empty 3 waiting to enter service half a station away.
A 1 enters on the local track. I board.
We wait in the station, presumably to make the connection for the approaching 3 on the express track. Nobody gets off the 3 to change to the local because the 3 wasn't in service south of 42nd Street this weekend. Surely the TW/O and C/R are aware of this GO.
After the 3 pulls out, we take off. Only as we bypass 50th Street does the C/R first bother announcing that we're bypassing 50th Street (duh -- next time try saying something before the train leaves the previous station) and that our next stops will be 59th, 72nd, and 96th.
I'm hoping someone can answer a few questions:
Why were we held to connect to a train that wasn't yet in service?
Why were we held at all if we were already behind schedule?
Anyone who wanted express service had a beautifully empty 3 train available across the platform at 42nd Street. Those who remained on the 1 presumably wanted local service. It's not a local if it doesn't stop at the local stops. So who benefits from skipped local stops?
When was the last day (full 24-hour period from midnight to midnight) that every single 1/9 train, as scheduled in the official timetable, has made every scheduled stop? Is it really too much to ask that the local run local?
Why wasn't the service change announced before the doors closed? Or, conversely, since the doors had closed before any announcement was made, why was the intended service change carried out?
Were passengers trying to get to 66th Street who missed the feeble announcement at 59th Street granted permission to cross over for free at 72nd Street, or were they forced to pay another fare or travel three miles out of their way?
I don't know that answers to your questions, but I do know that morning rush-hour battery runs on the 1/9 are so commonplace that they barely result in any confusion. Lately I've been experiencing them at least once a week when I board at 34th/Penn. Fortunately, the battery runs all stop at Houston Street, where I get off, even though it's a local stop.
I don't know that answers to your questions, but I do know that morning rush-hour battery runs on the 1/9 are so commonplace that they barely result in any confusion.
Don't you see a problem with that?
If it's a regular service pattern, it should be explicitly listed on the timetable.
Except for the skip-stop stations north of 137th Street served by the 9, the timetable indicates that every 1 train makes every stop between South Ferry and 242nd Street.
I don't know that answers to your questions, but I do know that morning rush-hour battery runs on the 1/9 are so commonplace that they barely result in any confusion.
Don't you see a problem with that?
If it's a regular service pattern, it should be explicitly listed on the timetable.
Except for the skip-stop stations north of 137th Street served by the 9, the timetable indicates that every 1 train makes every stop between South Ferry and 242nd Street.
I suppose the reason is that battery runs are considered to be exceptions to standard service patterns, made on an unscheduled basis when train spacing gets too far out of whack. Adding a caution to the timetables might be more confusing than helpful. The conductors do a pretty good job of annoucing battery runs, and people generally seem to know what to do.
It's gotten so I can generally tell if the next 1/9 at Penn will be making a battery run based on platform crowding.
If it happens once in a while, I agree.
If it happens every day, it's predictable. The recurring practice should be either eliminated or made official.
The TA gives the public the impression that they can expect a certain level of service at local stations. If that level of service is regularly not maintained, the TA is cheating its customers and taxpayers.
What I can't figure out is why the 1/9 has all these battery runs compared to other local lines. About all I can think of is that the long express "gap" between 72nd and 42nd leads to overcrowding on the locals.
The line runs through the most densely populated neighborhood in the country. Lots of people depend on those local stops.
One of the system's major transfer points is a local stop. The city's primary performing arts center is at a local stop. Three major universities are at local stops.
The TA is used to thinking in what I'll call a Queens Boulevard mode: get everyone way out as quickly as possible. On QB, most passengers cram onto the E and F, leaving the G and R for those who don't mind a slow ride as well as those relatively few who actually need local service. If an R skips a few stops, I'm sure many passengers are quite pleased.
Contrast that with the 1/9. Around 1990, when I was on a train that was rerouted to the express track from 96th to 137th with no prior warning, the train practically emptied out at 137th as probably over 1000 angry passengers stormed out of the station. The Queens Boulevard mode does not apply to the 1/9 but it is often applied to the 1/9 regardless.
The 1/9 is one of only a few lines that shares no trackage with other lines. Turning at the south end is quick, and there are two potential north termini, although one is not currently in use. I see no reason that trains can't arrive on the local track as frequently as they arrive on the express track.
I'm not even convinced that battery runs accomplish anything on a popular local. With all the confusion and door holding that a reroute inevitably brings as passengers try to figure out if the train on the local track signed as a local will actually be making local stops, I'm not convinced it wouldn't be faster to just make the stops and be done with it.
>I'm not convinced it wouldn't be faster to just make the stops and >be done with it.
It not only works it works for the train behind if it is conga line time. You lose time a one station dumping people but gain it on the next few station stops and usually those stations would have had extra people getting on or off. Even if the leader takes all passengers and the second train is empty the second train still has to spend the same amount of time following the leader. It's like both trains spend time picking up the same people.
When it does not work is when the TD gets lazy and there are 3 trains together like in the connector. Typically there were 3 trains running local and the typical thing to do was keep them local to Roosevelt then send the first two express. This is almost useless the trains delay each other to 74 and the two with the battery knock heads too. A better way is to give the first train Northern, 74th and then 71 so it would not slow down the second train which would go Northern then local and the last train making all local.
I apologive for my QB mentality. I did live on B'Way and 123rd and wnet to Columbia while living in Queens so I do have 10 yrs of 1 train experience.
Skipping stops is typically only done as the worst of several evils. It is a necessary part of running a good rail line. If it is done frequently, then that probably indicates that the line is a very difficult operating environment, with a great many factors causing irregularities. This doesn't mean that the irregularities should be eliminated somehow (e.g. by imposing overly long, timed dwells, by eliminating the possibility of cross-platform transfers with physical barriers, and allowing turnstiles to block out passengers under demand spikes)--that would make the system slow, infrequent, and far less efficient. What is needed are clear, audible and quick announcements when a train is to skip stops, and dispatchers who are thinking of the downstream impact on *all* passengers and the crew schedule.
If there was an anti-expressing policy, in order to insure that local stations recieve as much thruput as they are scheduled to have, then on the whole passengers would lose out.
For example, if a train is not send express to close a gap, it will arrive to pick you up at a local station far later than it otherwise would have (if it is fully loaded). That doesn't make the situation better for you at all!
Skipping stops is typically only done as the worst of several evils. It is a necessary part of running a good rail line. If it is done frequently, then that probably indicates that the line is a very difficult operating environment, with a great many factors causing irregularities. This doesn't mean that the irregularities should be eliminated somehow (e.g. by imposing overly long, timed dwells, by eliminating the possibility of cross-platform transfers with physical barriers, and allowing turnstiles to block out passengers under demand spikes)--that would make the system slow, infrequent, and far less efficient. What is needed are clear, audible and quick announcements when a train is to skip stops, and dispatchers who are thinking of the downstream impact on *all* passengers and the crew schedule.
You are making an interesting claim here, one that I find quite counterintuitive. You seem to be saying that there is simply no way to keep trains moving without skipping scheduled stops. I find that hard to believe. If, as I suspect, trains are being delayed because of large crowds at the local stations, wouldn't a better solution be to simply run more local service? There is excess capacity on the 1/9 tracks.
Are dispatchers really thinking of all passengers? More likely, they're simply trying to get that train up to 242nd as fast as possible, passengers be damned. True, the sooner it reaches 242nd, the sooner it can enter southbound service. But there are other options to accomodate southbound service, like short-turning at 137th, reaching into a yard to put an extra train into service, or switching a 2 or 3 onto the local track. Delays tend to be in the peak direction, so when there are problems in northbound service, chances are some of those northbound trains won't even be returning to South Ferry.
If there was an anti-expressing policy, in order to insure that local stations recieve as much thruput as they are scheduled to have, then on the whole passengers would lose out.
For example, if a train is not send express to close a gap, it will arrive to pick you up at a local station far later than it otherwise would have (if it is fully loaded). That doesn't make the situation better for you at all!
It doesn't? I'd rather have a late train than one that doesn't stop to pick me up at all.
Have you ever stood on the (hot, narrow, and invariably crowded) northbound platform at 72nd Street in the afternoon rush hour? You'll probably see three or four trains go by on the express track, each dumping more passengers onto the platform, before a train finally arrives on the local track. Invariably, passengers will get on and right back off as they hear the announcement (or assume the C/R isn't even bothering to announce the inevitable), leaving the train nearly empty (after all, anyone who actually wanted an express would have opted for one of the many true expresses). The platform, on the other hand, has by now reached the danger point. Eventually an actual local arrives, and the crowd on the platform forces its way onto the already packed train, since nobody knows when the next local might arrive. Actual local-to-local rush hour headways often exceed ten minutes. On the IRT line through the most densely populated neighborhood in the U.S. Is that crazy or what? That puts the 1/9 in the same league as the G and the separate branches of the A. Don't you think 66th Street should get better service than Broad Channel?
Battery runs might be less disruptive if they still made most (i.e., more than half) of the local stops. For instance, a train might make two of three stops between 42nd and 72nd, one of two stops between 72n and 96th, three of five stops between 96th and 137th. Flip a coin so it's not always the same stations that get skipped. That way at least some passengers would be able to stay on the train. Duplicating express service on the local track helps no one.
As I've said in earlier posts, I also have a significant problem with an everyday occurrence like this being officially unscheduled. That means that when the scheduling folks in Brooklyn are deciding where to add service, the 1/9 local stops are overlooked because they appear to be getting more service than they actually are.
I suppose the MTA could try extending the 1/9 skip stop south to Times Square. Both trains would stop at 42nd, 72nd and 96th, of course, and they both would have to stop at 59th as well for the A/B/C/D transfer. That would leave something like this for a service pattern:
Times Square: 1/9
50th St.: 9
59th St.: 1/9
66th St.: 1
72nd St.: 1/9
79th St.: 9
86th St.: 1
96th St.: 1/9
Obviously there's still a problem if you want to go from 50th St. to 86th St., for example. But it would cut at least some of the crowding at the express stops.
That would be a disaster. The local stations need more service, not less.
Does someone have a ranked list of stations by popularity? I have a strong feeling these stations are among the most popular in residential areas, moreso than even many express stations.
That would be a disaster. The local stations need more service, not less.
The ideal answer would be more trains per hour, and/or having the trains better spaced out to avoid platform overcrowding. But unless the MTA suddenly decides to save a 100 or so Redbirds for a few extra years to boost capacity (I expect the extra trains in the R-142 option order will be designed to primarily boost East Side IRT service), then given the same number of trains, the question is: Would it be better to buzz every local stop between 42nd and 96th to make up time or try a skip-stop service, with the 1 and 9 each bypassing two stations from Times Square to where the 1/9 splits off from the 2/3 at 96th?
That would at least clear some of the passengers off the local platform at 72nd, depending on whether or not they were going to 86th or 79th St. instead of keeping them all standing on that narrow space while the 1/9 shoots on up to 96th.
A service boost on the 1/9 has been promised here. It remains to be seen how much of a boost it will be, but I am looking forward.
Before throwing away functioning (if old) cars, the TA should expand its IRT fleet so that it could, conceivably, run each line at its maximum theoretical capacity. I don't know if there will be enough cas with out the Redbirds, but I can guarantee that 1/9 passengers would much rather sweat out a ride on even an R-33 single (and, presumably, there would be better choices to hold onto) than wait an extra minute at the dreadful 72nd Street station. (There is no ventilation in that station at all except for a few very narrow staircases, and they don't accomplish much if the stationhouse doors are closed.) (And before anyone brings up the South Ferry issue, yes, I'm aware. Option 1: Only R-62A's stop at South Ferry. Option 2: The 1/9 goes 100% Redbird; move the gap fillers. Option 3: Do whatever was done at Union Square to allow the fillers to function with all car types.)
But I'm afraid your skip-stop plan is not a good idea. Even though it sometimes seems like most locals are skipping the local stops, I do think that most (over half, if not by much) do stop. So skip-stop would be a service reduction. The platforms at 72nd would still be crowded, now also with people trying to get from a 1 stop to a 9 stop.
What I suggested was still running most trains local, but when a train must skip stops, have it skip only half (or so). Only the passengers bound for the other stops would have to wait. In fact, if (say) I'm going to 86th Street but the train I'm on is skipping my stop, as long as I'm assured that the following train will make all stops, I can wait for it at 79th, which is much cooler and has a wider, safer side platform than 72nd.
There are supposed to be more R-142s arriving than there are Redbirds departing, but as I said, the Lex will probably get priority over the 1/9 for the additional cars, due to the massive crowding problems on the 4/5/6 between Union Square and 86th Street.
If the MTA did decide to further add capacity to the system by keeping 100 or so of the healthiest `Birds for a few more years, that doesn't mean any of them would have to see the 1/9 and force a gap-filler adjustment; some of the cars could be kept on their current lines, like the 2, 4 or 7, and as the R-142s arrive, some of the R-62s could be added to the 1/9 (or if the No. 7 kept 100 of their old cars, then about two-thirds of the No. 3's fleet of R-62As could go over to Flushing as the R-142s arrive, while the remaining third would shift over to the 1/9 lines).
There are supposed to be more R-142s arriving than there are Redbirds departing, but as I said, the Lex will probably get priority over the 1/9 for the additional cars, due to the massive crowding problems on the 4/5/6 between Union Square and 86th Street.
I thought the 4/5/6 was already operating at (or very close to) theoretical capacity, at least according to the TA's models.
I know there will be more R-142's than there were Redbirds, but how many more? As I said, at least on the IRT, the TA should have enough cars to run each line at maximum capacity. I don't know if that means holding onto some Redbirds.
If the MTA did decide to further add capacity to the system by keeping 100 or so of the healthiest `Birds for a few more years, that doesn't mean any of them would have to see the 1/9 and force a gap-filler adjustment; some of the cars could be kept on their current lines, like the 2, 4 or 7, and as the R-142s arrive, some of the R-62s could be added to the 1/9 (or if the No. 7 kept 100 of their old cars, then about two-thirds of the No. 3's fleet of R-62As could go over to Flushing as the R-142s arrive, while the remaining third would shift over to the 1/9 lines).
I know, but for some reason some people get very distressed if their line's cars are older than some other line's cars. If the Redbirds are placed specifically where they will be increasing service, it might be easier to placate the masses.
David--
Thanks for your post. The biggest cause of irregularities is, I would argue based on comments from schedulers at NYCT, is not that dwells are particularly sensitive to being a few seconds ahead or behind of the scheduled headway. Rather, it is that when express and local trains stop across the platform from each other with both doors open, the dwells skyrocket.
I suspect also that the loop at South Ferry also constrains the amount of scheduled vehicle recovery time at Cortland St (or is it Chambers St) northbound and southbound.
The question is open whether the dispatchers always do the right thing. I'm sure someone knows the answer. You're pointing out one instance where a battery run may have been pointless, but then you're generalizing about skipping stops. Often times, passengers make complaints on survey forms that expressing ought to be marked on the schedule. It is a tool which, by its nature, needs to be unscheduled in order to be effective. That doesn't mean it will always be done successfully.
All I'm saying is that it is a necessary part of running most high-frequency rail lines, especially those that have many sources of irregularity. Once again, the cause of great irregularity is probably not heavy loading on the 1/9. Dwells are not *that* sensitive to passenger loading on heavy rail cars.
If the late trip was going to become a layup, then there's no point expressing it past the peak load point. I don't know what the volume profile of the 1/9 is, but I'd be willing to guess that it might have twin peaks. Does the battery run you experienced make sense given the volume profile at the time of day you were riding? The volume profile is one of the inputs in the expressing decision.
General NYCTA service control guidelines, if I'm not mistaken, say that a gap should be filled from alongside if possible, before considering filling it from behind (expressing on same track) or ahead (holding ahead of gap). Perhaps someone can correct me here.
You may have a legitimate gripe about what they did with the battery run you experienced, but skipping stops is a normal part of running a rail line. If you don't do it, you can hurt passengers overall in many cases. But if you do it, you have to make sure the announcements are clear, audible and quick.
I had said:
"For example, if a train is not send express to close a gap, it will arrive to pick you up at a local station far later than it otherwise would have (if it is fully loaded). That doesn't make the situation better for you at all!"
You said in response:
"It doesn't? I'd rather have a late train than one that doesn't stop to pick me up at all."
What I meant was that you may *still* board a train sooner than if there had been no expressing. This depends on how far downstream you are from the first station being skipped. You may arrive sooner at your destination because your train is less heavily loaded than it would have been if its preceding train had not been sent express.
In this situation, the passenger doesn't know what's good for them. I know more about this situation in the MBTA Red Line case, in which people think they are missing their commuter rail connection because their Red Line train was sent express after a 10-15 min. delay, but they wouldn't have made their connection anyway even if no expressing had been done (because a crush loaded train will move very slowly).
"If there was an anti-expressing policy, in order to insure that local stations recieve as much thruput as they are scheduled to have, then on the whole passengers would lose out."
I have to agree. Here in Chicago, there was a period of a decade or so where the CTA would NOT do express/battery runs, no matter what. There was no official announcement, but it was clearly policy as even near-disasters didn't result in express runs.
Personal experience: a Blue Line train burned at Rosemont (right near the yards) at the height of morning rush hour, and the next train made every stop like nothing happened! The train stopped for three to five MINUTES in each station as a mob of people tried to force themselves onto an already crush-loaded train. And crush load was already achieved at Jefferson Park -- NOBODY could get on east of there! The people near the doors did a "repel boarders" thing with their umbrellas and canes to keep the people on the platforms from further crushing them! And yet we kept stopping at each and every station.
When CTA suddenly decided to return to using express runs -- again, no press release, but it was clear -- I was very happy.
Keep in mind one major difference between the Chicago system and the New York system: express tracks.
That has two implications.
First, when a track is blocked in NYC, trains can go around the obstruction on the other track. Service may be slow (since in many cases one track simply doesn't have the capacity to hold all of the trains scheduled to use both tracks) but there are no total stoppages.
Second, once service is back to normal, passengers going long distances will ride the scheduled express service in any case. Only the passengers traveling to and from local stations will wait for the local, and having trains on the local track skip local stations certainly doesn't help those passengers any.
I agree, in Chicago there is often reason to skip stops. In New York, the practice should be reserved for major problems. In fact, it takes place nearly every day, on a line which already has more scheduled express service than local service.
It might be by bulletin. On the B'Way line there is a list of runs that the TD is allowed to ABD without the usual jumping thru hoops.
What's "ABD"?
- Lyle Goldman
ABanDoned I'm tired and in no mood to check spelling. You should get the meaning though.
>>> I do know that morning rush-hour battery runs on the 1/9 are so commonplace that they barely result in any confusion. <<<
Maybe I was just unaware of it, but in the ‘50s I never heard of the New York subways skipping stops. An express was an express, and a local stopped at every local station. When did this change?
Tom
A memory fades (the goold ole days were not that good), no offense and B the rush hour headways were so tight there was no where to go.
What exactly are "battery runs"?
- Lyle Goldman
What exactly are "battery runs"?
When a local train skips some stops. It stays on the local track, but goes past some stations without stopping.
But a battery run would never skip South Ferry. A battery run must stop at the Battery!
But a battery run would never skip South Ferry. A battery run must stop at the Battery!
Heh heh. Actually, the battery runs on the 1/9 seem to end at Chambers Street, the trains don't skip Cortlandt or Rector.
I wonder why that is.
Especially late at night when the ferry runs infrequently, it might actually be appropriate to skip those stops southbound when doing so would allow passengers to catch the boat. Passengers for Cortlandt and Rector would just stay on the train through the loop and back up -- unlike the typical battery run, there's no uncertainty about when the next train will show up.
Never say never I have had new C/R's that operated so carefully that Times Square told me at 14th to "inform your customers that your next stop will be Chambers then South Ferry" and this was 10:00 pm on a Sunday!
I once saw a Sunday afternoon 1 train run nonstop from South Ferry to Chambers. This was one of the weekends the 5 was running light from Chambers to Bowling Green, so the added congestion may have been a factor.
It actually happens quite often during the morning rush - I've done it 6 times while operating and a lot more while riding.
David, I enjoy your sense of humor. On this topic, where did the southbound #1 terminate bet. the hours of 12:01 AM & 7 AM on 9/2? When I was At SO FY on Sat. eve about 10 PM, the station agent insisted "No trains here until Monday morning.
Thanks.
At Chambers, I'd guess. The entire point of sending the 1 to New Lots was to keep the line clear south of Chambers.
And what was the point of keeping the line clear south of Chambers Street?
- Lyle Goldman
Pouring concrete between Cortlandt st. and Rector.
To quote from an officail TA document:
Battery Run - A sequence of revenue trains "skipping" stations. designed to fill a gap in service from behind and must follow each other immediately.
Run - The act of skipping scheduled station stops to prevent the overloading of the first train behind the delay.
To paraphrase - when only one train skips stations and the next is normal, you have witnessed a run. When multiple, back to back trains skip stations, you have witnessed a battery run.
Amazingly enough, the only times I have actually seen a true battery run was on the 1. Due to a power outtage, there was a major delay in getting trains to VC. Once power was restored, all the trains were able to get through. The first arrival was sent out "next stop 168 then 137"; the next went 231, Dyckman, 168, 137; the third made all stops. This, plus turning trains at 137, put the trains back in place with a minimum of delay (of course the people at the bypassed stations would probably argue)
I apologize, then, for the inaccurate subject line.
I don't know that answers to your questions, but I do know that morning rush-hour battery runs on the 1/9 are so commonplace that they barely result in any confusion.
Quite a few times when I've taken the 1 downtown from Penn Station around 9-10pm on a weeknight it makes express stops (plus Houston St) from 34th to Chambers. I'm always amazed that the 1 can fall that far behind schedule at that hour.
And, there is always endless confusion on the part of the passengers on these local-running-express trains. The comment, "But I thought the 1 stops everywhere" is often heard, along with, "Why didn't they announce this?" even though, in my experience, they always do announce it clearly and repeatedly.
There is a ton of 1 passengers on and off the train before 96th St and that gives plenty of stops to lose time. Plus being held for connections. That train might not be late but the one in front of it may have dropped out and they need to fill the gap fast.
I asked six questions. Someone answered one of them, although (as is apparent from my reply) I disagree with his answer. Would anyone like to take a stab at the other five?
You asked eight questions, not six. Nonetheless, here are my answers. Just remember, since I wasn't there, these are not necessarily the 'true' answers. Someday I hope to be stuck in the same mess as you and have my radio with me, so we can find out what is really happening.
Why were we held to connect to a train that wasn't yet in service?
You were held for some other reason; it just appeared that you were held for the 3.
Why were we held at all if we were already behind schedule?
Who said you were behind schedule? It could have been a problem ahead of you - you were held while the extent of the problem was sorted out.
Anyone who wanted express service had a beautifully empty 3 train available across the platform at 42nd Street. Those who remained on the 1 presumably wanted local service. It's not a local if it doesn't stop at the local stops. So who benefits from skipped local stops?
The people further along the line and the people waiting for a train to come in the other direction. If I skip stops going north, the train goes back into service southbound that much sooner.
When was the last day (full 24-hour period from midnight to midnight) that every single 1/9 train, as scheduled in the official timetable, has made every scheduled stop?
As a shot in the dark guess, sometime before June of 2000, when they skeletonized the tracks at 72 St northbound. Of course, it depends on how you define official - when a GO causes stations to be skipped, the supplement schedule that is put into place becomes 'official'. Using this definition, it was probably sometime in the last two or three weeks.
Is it really too much to ask that the local run local?
No, but shit happens. Deal with it. Yesterday they took a southbound A out of service - that meant a 40 minute gap in service to Far Rock. You, on the other hand, were taken 10 blocks out of your way.
Why wasn't the service change announced before the doors closed?
Because the crew wasn't informed of it before then.
Or, conversely, since the doors had closed before any announcement was made, why was the intended service change carried out?
Because very few people argue with the voice of authority, train crews included. The crew should have told the TD they were on the move and would stop at 50 St to let local passengers out.
Were passengers trying to get to 66th Street who missed the feeble announcement at 59th Street granted permission to cross over for free at 72nd Street, or were they forced to pay another fare or travel three miles out of their way?
Don't know. That would depend on the SA in charge.
Doesn't this get alittle thin after a while? Every time you have a problem on the 1, you ask the same questions and get annoyed at the same answers. Why don't you put pen to paper and ask the Powers That Be down at Jay Street? They might be able to give you better answers.
You were held for some other reason; it just appeared that you were held for the 3.
Perhaps. It would be nice if the C/R could reveal why the train is being held (along with an ETD). (I realize he doesn't always know either.)
Who said you were behind schedule? It could have been a problem ahead of you - you were held while the extent of the problem was sorted out.
It's possible, but I had been waiting about five minutes and there were no red signals directly ahead of the station. Besides, wouldn't the train have been held at 34th if there was a problem, so, if necessary, it could divert to the express track? Once at 42nd there's no way off the local track (except to back onto the shuttle, which would really be of little use).
The people further along the line and the people waiting for a train to come in the other direction. If I skip stops going north, the train goes back into service southbound that much sooner.
Not really. As I said before, I doubt the typical run actually saves any time. A few seconds are saved at each bypassed station but the confusion at each express stop eats up all the saved time, if not more. In this case, the next local was sitting right behind the one I left at 72nd. I suppose this could be avoided by making very few stops (say, 42-96-168-etc.), but on a line like the 1, that would dump almost everyone onto the platform.
Does the TA actually time runs, including dwells?
There are other ways to fill gaps further up the line. An extra train could be pulled in out of the yard. (That assumes there are extra cars available -- surely on Sundays there are, although this past Sunday in particular may have been an exception -- and that there are extra crew members available.) A train could be turned at 137th. (Yes, that denies service to anyone north of 137th, but consider it a non-stop run to 242nd and back that saves a lot of time. The stations north of 137th aren't as busy as the ones south of it; although everyone should get proper service, I'd rather see service denied to less popular stations than to more popular stations.) An express could be switched onto the local track to fill in the gap, allowing the 1 train behind it to make better time or even to run express itself.
As a shot in the dark guess, sometime before June of 2000, when they skeletonized the tracks at 72 St northbound. Of course, it depends on how you define official - when a GO causes stations to be skipped, the supplement schedule that is put into place becomes 'official'. Using this definition, it was probably sometime in the last two or three weeks.
I can accept publicized GO's as regular service (although it would be nice if the supplement schedule were available to the public).
Two or three weeks is a long time to go without regular service. One or two days I can understand. Extenuating circumstances (water main break or the like) I can understand. Going for two or three weeks without a single day of regular service indicates that the TA's idea of regular service is unreasonable and should be corrected (whatever that means).
No, but shit happens. Deal with it. Yesterday they took a southbound A out of service - that meant a 40 minute gap in service to Far Rock. You, on the other hand, were taken 10 blocks out of your way.
Apples and oranges. I don't think Far Rockaway gets hit with doubled headways every day. The 1/9 local stops do get hit with doubled headways nearly every day.
Because very few people argue with the voice of authority, train crews included. The crew should have told the TD they were on the move and would stop at 50 St to let local passengers out.
I didn't know that was ever done.
Doesn't this get alittle thin after a while? Every time you have a problem on the 1, you ask the same questions and get annoyed at the same answers. Why don't you put pen to paper and ask the Powers That Be down at Jay Street? They might be able to give you better answers.
Is there any chance at all that my letter would improve the situation?
Thank you. I do appreciate your answers, believe it or not.
David as a T/O on the 1/9 I will TRY to answer your questions:
1) The 1 my have been held at TSQ for a few reasons and they are
a)T/D misread the schedule (we are all human, plus the supplement
for the G.O. looked good on paper but all the T/D's, T/O,s and
C/R's knew it would not work out that way)
b)with all trains coming from Brooklyn including the collector
mistakes are bound to happen.
c)train gapped due to a delay behind it (even out the headway)
then the tower realizes it made a mistake and informs the crew
after the train is in motion to make express stops. (C/R
should have made announcements and T/O stop at 50th to let
local passengers off)
I have done the above when told to make my next stop 137 just as I am leaving 96, I make the announcement that after 103, 137 will be next just to give the passengers an opportunity to exit the train and board the one behind me that will be making all local stops.
The G.O. this past weekend with the 1 going to New Lots was CLUSTER PH^David this probably will give you more questions then answers but until the TA starts dealing with what actually happens on the "railroad" when they draw up these G.O.'s (passenger confusion, crew unfamiliarity with the line, new C/R's and T/O's being extra careful and other unforseen events that we all know will happen MURPHY'S LAW) we all have to learn how to deal with it, passengers, crews,TW/O's and T/D's and do the best we can.
Thank you.
In the interest of customer service -- perhaps the area in which the TA has room for the most improvement -- IMO the TA should impose a rule: if the C/R does not announce a planned skipped stop before the doors are closed at the previous stop, then the stop is made contrary to plans. The only exceptions would be (a) when the express track is the only way around a physical obstruction (train gone dead, broken rail, etc.) and (b) when, for whatever reason, the skipped station cannot accept passengers (power outage, flooding, police action, etc.). (Of course, if the information is available in advance, the C/R should announce these changes as well.) I do appreciate that you stop at 103rd when no announcement is made at 96th; I've never experienced a battery run with any stops made other than express stops and a small handful of designated local stops (e.g., 59th and Houston, and even those are sometimes skipped).
It's all part of the plot to make you buy unlimited Metrocard so you can cross anywhere or change from train to bus at will.
How long did you have to wait for the next local at 72nd?
A few seconds. Had the first train just made its regular local stops, both it and its follower would have made it to 96th earlier.
There is an article in the past Sunday's Newsday, I believe on page A-33 about LI Bus. I cannot access the article on Newsday's website because the idiots who run www.newsday.com goofed up and all the local articles are missing. So if anybody could please, PLEASE scan the article and send it to my email I would appreciate very much.
Visit your local library or the Queens Library (assuming this article was in the Queens Edition also, although Jamaica may have the LI Edition).
I found a whole stack of Sunday Newsdays the local Deli was getting rid of, just a matter of pulling the paper out of the tightly bundled pile.
Yesterday morning at about 9:30, I entered 34th Street on the 1/2/3/9 at the south entrance from Penn Station proper. The entrance was 100% open, with turnstiles in full swing. Not a HEET was in sight. There was a token booth. However, it was vacant, with handwritten CLOSED signs in the windows.
Is this an experiment on the part of the TA?
Yesterday morning at about 9:30, I entered 34th Street on the 1/2/3/9 at the south entrance from Penn Station proper. The entrance was 100% open, with turnstiles in full swing. Not a HEET was in sight. There was a token booth. However, it was vacant, with handwritten CLOSED signs in the windows.
Is this an experiment on the part of the TA?
Or maybe a police sting operation.
Everyone I saw there was briskly entering or exiting the station.
Briskly? You mean as if they had already had their Lipton tea?
:0)
I'm sure they did. Penn Station had much more activity than I imagined it would at that time of day on a Sunday morning (of a holiday weekend, yet). (I merely stopped off there to use the men's room. Speaking of which, of the three in-system ones I tried to use, all were closed for repairs. Did the TA run out of water or something?)
I just want to verify a few things I saw on the way up to NYC on Saturday.
1) After departing Newark, there is a section of new track on white concrete ties at a lower grade than the mainline NE Corridor tracks. Do they belong to the HBLR?
2) There are two new stations being built in proximity to Newark. I know one of them is the Seacaucus station (which I really don't know much about). What's the other one that's nearly complete?
The nearly complete station south of Newark on the Northeast Corridor line is Newark Airport station, which will connect with the monorail line to the airport. The station is supposed to open this fall. The monorail cars have already been making test runs on the new segment of the airport line. I've spotted them a couple of times already.
I think you are referring to the NJT M&E division main line.
The Secaucus Transfer Station is intended, if I recall correctly, to provide NJT rail passengers on the Erie-Lackawana branches with a way to get to Penn Station. The alternative, currently the default, is riding to Hoboken and using PATH or a ferry to get across the Hudson.
Erie branches. The Lackawanna branches (except Boonton) are the ones that connect via MidTown Direct. Erie and the Delaware, Lackawanna and Western merged in 1960.
Allright. So will the Secaucus station allow for transfer between NY-Penn trains and Port Jervis and Pascack Valley trains?
:-) Andrew
That's the whole point.
1) After departing Newark, there is a section of new track on white concrete ties at a lower grade than the mainline NE Corridor tracks. Do they belong to the HBLR?
Which direction from Newark? If southbound, the new rail is for the Newark Int'l Airport Rail Station, and the one next to all of the ramps and bridges, ask the experts. I have seen a freight line run over it, but it depends on which section you're talking about. I am a weekly rider of NJT in this area, and I see it every week.
1) ALSO, did the new section of track you saw have catenary wires? If not, it doesn't belong to the HBLR.
If northbound, I don't know which section you're talking about. There are many new-built rails around the Secaucus Transfer station, designed to connect from NJT's Main Line track to the NE Corridor.
You'll see many rail segments "stacked up" on top of each other, and during working hours, they are working on building a whole entire bridge to accomodate 2 new tracks for the station. The catenary wires are already hung up in some of them, so that's where the new rails will lie.
There are several tracks which run underneath the high ramps that the NEC trains travel on in the Secaucus area, which is used for the BOONTON line and various freight lines in the area. There is a freight yard nearby.
Depending on which section, I don't think the HBLR can even be seen from the NEC tracks.
2) There are two new stations being built in proximity to Newark. I know one of them is the Seacaucus station (which I really don't know much about). What's the other one that's nearly complete?
The other one is the Newark Airport Rail Station, scheduled to be completed and opened by Sept. 30, and the Secaucus Transfer is the other one, scheduled to be completed within 2002. Those workers have a lot to get done even as of now. Hold your breath....
: )
Railfan Pete.
I see it when I go northbound. It does have catenary and I'm pretty sure it is HBLR now.
You can't see the HBLR from the Northeast Corridor.
If you're talking about tracks that are between the NEC and I-280 highway that's the NJT Morris & Essex line. (Three tracks, w/ catenary). The NEC crosses over it under the turnpike overpass.
What I saw was a single track. It was right under a highway overpass.
What I saw was a single track. It was right under a highway overpass.
Possibly if you could denote which highway it was, that would clear up a lot of doubts at this point and to get your question answered.
Since you said "northbound", the only highway overpass you will encounter is with the N.J. Turnpike. No white ties here.
Southbound: Highway overpass is the Rt. 22 multiple ramnps. A single track (but not a segment or section) is connected on the other side of the "pillars" for the extra track to accomodate the Newark Airport Rail Station. This track has catenary wiring.
Local Road multiple overpasses (finished construction) to connect to a major local road running alongside south of Newark Penn Station right next to the Hunters Connection for the Raritan Valley line trains.
A single track with white ties (without a wire) is used by a freight co. CONRAIL, CSX.
Also, TWO tracks with white ties can be found adjacent to Track 1 of the NEC around those new ramps. They join together in switches and quickly move into Track 1. I have never seen these tracks used before.
Those are the only overpass highway ramps I can think of that pass through the Newark area.
The HBLR project is divided into four Phases of construction. The first phase from Exchange place to.... (I don't know) is completed. NJT is working on Phase 2 which is scheduled to be completed by the end of this year. (1 year per phase).
For more details, I'll try to retrieve a link for you.
: )
Railfan Pete.
Please use "east" and "west". There is no north or south on NJTransit. RR East is toward NY and Hoboken, and RR West is toward Trenton and Port Jervis. If they used north and south, Hoboken bound trains from Trenton and Bay Head would be heading north while Hoboken bound trains from Port Jervis and Spring Valley would be heading south.
Heading west from Newark, after crossing the drawbridge, one encounters the following passenger lines:
Boonton
Main Line
Bergen County Line
...in that order.
The Boonton line is single track (second track present but disused) and has no connection at Secaucus to the NEC, passenger or otherwise.
The Main and Bergen lines encounter the NEC at each end of Secaucus Transfer station, but are no longer easily visible from NEC trains.
Sorry. I've been on NJT so many times, and I don't even notice on the check tickets that it's East and West, but for the sake of the actual compass directions....
By the way, which trackset are you talking about?
If you're referring to the three tracks equipped with catenary wires, (the one adjacent to I-280) those tracks are used by the Boonton, Gladstone, and the service which is now known as MidTown Direct.
No Main or Bergen lines here. They go upward towards upstate NY.
The sets of tracks divide into two sections of any train which travels within the Hoboken Division before/after the Bergen Tunnels.
: )
Railfan Pete.
I think you mean east from Newark, not west.
Also, there are a couple of changes in the works in the area you describe: the current Boonton line track is going to become inactive when the Montclair connection is complete and the Bergen County Line is being realligned to meet the Main Line north (west, if you insist) of the Transfer Station.
The ARC plan has the current Boonton Line track being made into a storage yard with a car wash.
Yes. That's true. However, the Montclair connection is somewhat closer to completion.
Does anyone have a track map of what’s there and what’s proposed?
John
Yes.
That isn't the easiest site to hunt around, so try this. I think it's the map you want.
No HBLR tracks are visible from the NEC. HBLR, including sections in operation or actively being built, runs from Bayonne to the Weehauken tunnel, all of it east of the Pallisade and the Hackensack River. The NEC enters its tunnel west of the Pallisade. Where the two cross each other, near Lincoln Harbor and the Helix, the HBLR is on the surface and the NEC is in the tunnel heading for the Hudson River.
I noticed on the MTA website that the V train will run the next Sunday, September 9. Is this the first time the V line is running?
As the "V," yes. It will be the first time the "F" and "V" run together in the same fashion they will run full-time beginning in November. The F will take 63rd St, the V 53rd St. The V will run local in Queens, the F express; both with run local in Manhattan.
This was talked about to death here on SubTalk a few days ago. It is simulated service required by a General Order. When regular V service commences in November, it is expected to operate M-F only.
What is the purpose of this simulated service?
Will trains be running on full weekday schedules? Even if so, passenger loads will be much lower than on weekdays.
I am fully aware that the passenger load will be lower on a Saturday for the simulated V service. They will, apparently, be running the full number of rush hour trainsets needed for the new schedule of the E/F/G/R V lines. As I previously stated, I am not part of the TA decision making process, however I am happy to report on what is going on.
It was a test. Many people were out there to gather information from the operation. What worked and what didn't.
"I noticed on the MTA website that the V train will run the next Sunday, September 9. Is this the first time the V line is running?"
Where on the MTA website did you see this? :) I couldn't seem to find it.
Go to:
http://www.mta.nyc.ny.us/nyct/service/subsrvnf.htm
It is the last item on th epage.
Thanx buddy. :)
The GO on the MTA web site says from 5 AM Saturday (Sept. 8) to 2 AM Sunday (Sept. 9).
In Microsoft Train simulator, when giving indications to start moving an electric train, it says:
"Wait for the current reading on the Ammeter to fall before advancing the throttle to the next higher position".
I know you have to start slowly in order to reduce slippage or strong forces applied to the train, but what is the relation of this with the ammeter reading?
And why does the ammeter reading falls?
PS Don´t you find it difficult in this game to apply and release the brakes with the mouse???
Use the keyboard! It's ; for release and ' for increase I think.
On old fashioned traction systems -- notably DC traction motors
wired pretty much straight to the generators, you have to watch
what you are doing because by putting the (diesel) engine throttle
on too high and allowing a too high current to flow, it will burn
out your traction motors or cause a flashover. In an EMU with
camshaft resistance control, this should never happen as the resistance
will regulate the current. However in an AC EMU equipped with DC
traction motors connected via tap-changing HT circuity, the same
thing can happen if you step up the notches too quickly. I am not
sure which type of traction system the MS simulator is trying to
emulate here...
Lexcie
P.S. I am posting frmo a Lynx browser, so if it looks weird thats why.
I recently returned from a trip to Washington, DC. Rode the Metro.Many of the escalators were not working. The stations and the trains were very clean. It's interesting that in Washington the subway exrtends to the suburbs of Maryland and Virginia.
I purchased a book called 25 years of the Washington Metro.It was being sold at the sales office at the Metro Center station.
Nothing new about the escalators not working
"It's interesting that in Washington the subway exrtends to the suburbs of Maryland and Virginia."
The Washington Metro was planned as more of a commuter system, to bring people in from the extended suburbs to the central area to work, than as a means of transit for close-by city residents. Such subway planning is very common in most newer American subway systems (post-50's).
San Francisco and D.C. run their subways very much like commuter rail lines.
A big reason is the expense of building these lines. The New York City subway alone would cost around $200 billion (or more) to replicate. Then there's PATH. The LIRR, Metro-North, NJ Transit, as necessary as they are, incredible luxuries compared to what other cities have.
Still, San Francisco does have a three-tier system: Muni, BART, and Caltrain. I've taken the commuter train connecting the Bay Area to Cupertino. Washington, in addition to Metrorail, has MARC and VRE trains serving it.
MARC, VRE?
IIRC, neither existed when the first segment of the Metro was opened.
You may be correct on the history. My point simply is that Washington does now have a subway+commuter rail service, though not the same type or configuration as NY's.
But the lack of other commuter rail services at the time may have influenced the design of the Metro.
VRE only goes to Fredericksburg and Manassas short distance, at least on MARC Brunswick Line it goes as far as Harpers Ferry and Martinsburg WV 80 miles away, and no midday or weekend service on either line
The escalators to the street that WMATA came up with when thy built the original system back in the mid-1970s was due to all of the deep tunnel stations the system had, but in many cases they did not put one single stairway in between the street and fare control areas, just three escalators and an ADA elevator.
While the idea may have looked good on paper -- one escalator could be repaired while the other two were in service -- it increased the system's future maintenance costs as the machinery began to show its age. Now, when you have two or all three escalators broken, they can still only work on fixing one at a time because you need an `up' broken escalator and a `down' broken one for the passengers to continue using. Combine that with the increasing passenger load of WMATA, and they would be better off tearing out some at least one of the three escalators at many of the downtown stations and putting stairs in.
Agreed. In addition, stairways usually include intermediate landings, which reduce the consequences of a fall - eg you will be less likely to tumble a long distance, and the landings provide a place to pause without worrying as much about loss of balance.
Two escalators and a stairway is not entirely unreasonable. It will eliminate the "2 up 1 down" or vice versa, peak direction, strategy during rush hours, though.
I believe that stairway landings are required by code.
How about building escalators with landings?
The WMATA may look at that as: Multiple escalators mean multiple sets of machinery, and more chances for break downs, higher maintenance etc.
Or maybe not. Maybe they would go for that.
How about one escalator that flattens out for, say, 3 to 5 feet at one or more points in the middle of its run?
Like a combination sidewalk escalator?
Actually, the purpose of a landing is to allow a pause - I'm not sure how one continuous escalator run would serve that.
I was thinking that pauses would be most important when the thing breaks down.
I was referring to something else. Refer back to my comment about landings (pause points in a way) on staircases.
Perhaps I have been unclear. I meant to suggest that if the escalator had flat segments in the middle, those flat segments could serve as stair landings (on which one could pause) at those times that the escalator had broken down.
Oh, I see. Yes, correct. However, this pause function would not be available to someone who suffered a loss of balance while the escalotor was in motion. I am not complaining about this, however. I like your general concept and wonder if WMATA would be willing to do it.
Another reason for stairway landings is that stairs are steeper than escalators, so in order for both to begin and end at the same place, landings are needed for the stairs.
Wider stairs could have solved that problem. Landings would not be needed, and it would be much safer to run up and down since one can take broader steps.
I find at least one broken escalator every time I ride, on average.
The one at Crystal City (the one from the mall level to the surface) is ALWAYS out of order!
wayne
At Friendship Hts., at least one is out every time on the way down to the trains (Western side).
You think that's bad? Try riding SEPTA.
Escalators/elevators serve more as decoration than anything else at virtually every station they're located at. Handicapped and elderly riders understandably have a real problem with this and have made sure SEPTA knows it, though they do precious little to show they're actually listening. At my home station, 63rd St, there is a sign in the token booth window naming all the stations with malfunctioning lift equipment. Of the handful of MFL station that even have them, Bridge and Pratt is the only one to regularly not be on the list.
Metro Center, Union Station there is always one out of order on every station, as to Septa, WAMTA is newer, should be in service at all times
You are sort of right. If SEPTA had their way, there would be NO escalators or elevators on the subways. It cost too much to keep them up. Plus people in Philly tend to use them for toilets, just like the subway steps.
Not all the people, just the lazy, the homeless and the ignorant. The first and last, though, effectively describe more than half the city's 1.4 million.
When in was in NYC saturday, every single escalator I rode was working!!
I have a copy of the book you mention. It has a good history of the system and lots of good pictures. I purchased mine thru the METRO
"gifts" section on the web.
Chuck Greene
When the NCS is lengthened, will there be a connection to NJT? I don't mean physical rail, just a transfer like at Newark, Penn Station.
No, the closest rail station is Watsessing Ave and it is about a 4-5 block walk up Bloomfield Ave.
Mike
"Mr Mass Transit"
Actually Watsessing Ave Station is on Watsessing Ave, not Bloomfield Avenue. From Grove Street NCS Station walk northest along Grove and turn left onto Watsessing at the first corner. Then walk west on Watsessing, cross Bloomfield, and continue two more l-o-n-g blocks.
It's quite a hike.
I know this I was born and raised in Bloomfield, I ment that it was a few block walk up Bloomfield Ave not including the part about turning onto Watsessing.
Sorry for confusion
Mike
"Mr Mass Transit"
Second time I have gotten a eailfan window on a r62. Is this more common. I ver seldon ride the IRT
Only on the 3 will you find this...
Yes it eas on the 3 line. Why is that.
The 3 only runs 9 car trains, thus they need singles. Some 3 trains how have one 5 car set from the Pelham line plus 4 singles. In addition, the singles were left for 11 car operation of the 7, once the R62As make it over there.
FYI: The cars on the 3 are R62As, not R62s. R62s are on the 4.
Thanks for the clarifcation.
I thought I read here that the 3 was to begin running ten-car trainsets after Labor Day. Labor Day ended about ten minutes ago. If the rumor is fact, say goodbye to that railfan window.
The little cab window is annoying but at least it's not fuzzed up like on the other transverse cabs.
As long as there are single R62A cars on the #3 line there will be a railfan window. Some single cars will be kept so they can be transfered to the #7 line to provide the 11th car and also a pool of single R62A's must be kept in "mainline" service to provide a pool of cars for the Grand Central shuttle.
The new pick starts in mid Nov. and from what I hear that is when the 3 will be running 10 cars.
Does anyone have any info, track plans, or other pertinent info on the Southern New Jersey LRT line from Trenton to Camden? NJT is keeping this a big secret from everybody. They won`t post any info on their web sites, or put any promotional material anywhere, unlike the HBLRT, which got a lot of hype during construction. I would appreciate it if anyone can pry some info about this.
Check the SubTalk archives. chuchubob has posted quite a bit of information on the subject, including routes.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Here is my extensive collection of slow-loading photos of construction progress at various locations. Click on the sub-headings near the top of the page for different sets of photos.
The HQ for the line is in Riverside in the building next to the light rail car mock-up and the people there are thrilled to talk about the line with anybody who's interested. They also have several give-away brochures. There's no secret about it fromtheir standpoint.
Is NJT building and running this line itself or have they contracted it out like HBLR?
I think they contracted it out. To who IDK, but I think Adtranz, at the time(Bombardier). I could be totally wrong...
Cleanairbus
It's DBOM (design - build - operate - maintain); contracted out. I disremember to whom it is contracted out.
I believe Bechtel is the DBOM contractor. I haven't seen anything on track layout, etc. The colorful brochures provide nice maps of the line. As far as progress, it's slow, but the sunken bridge has been raised and much of the west side of downtown Camden is a big mess with street/track work.
Heading out of town again, look forward to speaking with all of you again next week.
For those interested, I did update my website today.
Sincerely,
Oren H.
www.orenstransitpage.com
I had the opportunity today (Labor Day) to make a short visit to Rockhill Furnace, and ride two of the trolleys to the new end of the line.
My wife and I were the only two passengers on the first trip on Johnstown (PA) #311. The two man crew gave us a great tour. 311's compressor and motor sounds reminded me a lot of those of the old BU's in Brooklyn.
Our second trip was on York (PA) #163, which had recently been restored. There were twelve other passengers on this trip so we did not have the advantage of all of the personal attention.
The new 3000 foot extension is now in service, and it now feels like more of a full trolley ride.
The neighboring East Broad Top RR was completely closed down even though it was Labor Day of a holiday weekend.
We talked to a half dozen or more of the volunteers at RTM, and everyone went out of their way to make sure that we enjoyed our visit.
The RTM and the EBT are really out in the country, which seems to keep the numbers of visitors down, but the new extension to the trolley line makes the trip worthwhile.
Does anyone know when the original Bronx Zoo terminus was demolished? Did that happen when the line was extended to White Plains starting in 1917 or was the stub terminal still operating later than that?
Originally, the Dyre Avenue line terminated at the old NYW&B 180th Street station. I assume it was an extra-fare connection when the line was taken over around 1940. When was the flyover link made to the 180th Street station?
Does anyone know when the original Bronx Zoo terminus was demolished? Did that happen when the line was extended to White Plains starting in 1917 or was the stub terminal still operating later than that?
4 Aug 1952
Originally, the Dyre Avenue line terminated at the old NYW&B 180th Street station. I assume it was an extra-fare connection when the line was taken over around 1940.
It was a free transfer.
When was the flyover link made to the 180th Street station?
3 May 1957
Q: When was the flyover link made to the 180th Street station?
A: 3 May 1957
Interesting to note that even though through service to Manhattan (initially on the '2' train) began in 1957, the platforms along the Dyre Ave. branch were not extended until the early 60s, so at all stations (except Pelham Parkway) only the front half of the train opened (like at South Ferry today).
-- Ed Sachs
Thanks for the responses. One further question: when the White Plains Road line was extended to 180th Street and beyond, was there still a switch and service to the Zoo terminus, or did the new tracks totally bypass the Zoo stub, essentially abandoning it until it was demolished in '52?
A few months ago I traveled to London, and was quite impressed with the highly-developed intracity rail network. One of the most interesting features there is a high-speed express train that runs from Heathrow Airport to Paddington Station in central London. I wondered, would it be feasible to build such a train from JFK Airport to Penn Station? It could conceivably run along the IND Rockaway Line from near the current Howard Beach/JFK station and then along various other lines straight into Penn Station. As an express train, it obviously would not stop at elevated and subway stations en route; it would be powered by the subway's third rail, and could run at speeds up to 50 mph in some points. Most European and many Asian airports have trains from the main airport to the central city now, and it would seem like the dawn of a new era if New York could receive such a system.
That has been talked about from time to time not just on this board
but elsewhere too. The problem here is that the Port Authority
owns the airport and the MTA owns the subway, whilst Amtrak owns
all the tracks. Don't forget London's Stansted and Heathrow scheme
were both planned when British Rail and British Airports Authority
owned everything. As for JFK, you will have heard of the case of
the Airtrain which shows the total lack of planning on the part of
the Port Authority. It would seem this is a truly sad case of
provincialism going too far (I mean the NY/NJ rivalry) in the USA.
Usually that kind of protectionist phenomenon is seen more in Europe
than in the USA, but I guess in NY region the population has reached
the traditional "European" levels when people are beginnnig to
squabble over who gets the "business" instead of helpnig one another
like Americans haev traditionally done. It's a shame.
Lexcie,
You are certainly correct that having one jurisdiction (eg one agency, as well as owning all needed ROW, is very helpful to building a unified transit system. That's true of any line, not just one to the airport.
However, your comments about the Port Authority are quite a bit off the mark, and not based on reality. There is plenty of stuff in the archives about AirTrain, and I encourage you to read it.
New York's AirTrain-LIRR-subway hybrid came about not just because of different system or land ownership. It came about because MTA and PA funds represent different budgets, doled out and usable under different rules. If there is "blame" to be assigned (and I do not believe there is), the City of New York, the MTA and the PA would all share in it. The original AirTrain plan, to be developed all the way to a 59th Street terminal, cost much more than the PA and the MTA could afford together, given competition of projects and the many pressing priorities in the agencies' capital plans. The alternatives offered to the AirTrain plan as subsequently built looked good on paper, but had neither political backing from the city or state, nor could be accomplished without substantial taking of property.
What we are left with is an adequate plan which provides much more than we had previously (which was nothing) and leaves the door open to future development.
I noticed from David Greenburger's archive post that he proposes to make the Airtrain a part of the subway system. I think perhaps we're at split purposes here -- the Airtrain looks like a scheme which seeks to extort $ from airport users (not necessarily a bad thing, and certainly is the case on British Rail in that trains serving the airport often surcharge much more above the locals that go to nearly the same location). David proposes making it like Chicago O'Hare where the airport is an integrated subway system. The more I read about the Airtrain scheme and its transfers and that sort of stuff, the more I wonder if its real purpose is to turn that bottleneck into a cash cow. Although the institutional divide between the MTA and the PA may be problematic and their funds may be escrowed under particular rules, couldn't they have worked out a mechanism whereby each party contributed a % of costs for a % of ownership? For example, say we decide to connect the Airtrain to the subway with cheap fares, if MTA couldn't afford it alone, surely PA could use their funds and have MTA run their trains to the airport under trackage rights? Again, if we decided to make Airport a commuter rail stop, if MTA couldn't afford it then PA could again invest and realize its returns through trackage rights agreement. I don't know if bureaucratic red tapes is the reason why the PA did not pursue any of those reasonable (and customer-transparent) alternatives, but my dialogue with a friend from NJ suggests that PA had been acting like the "bad boy" in that region because neither NY state nor NJ state could totally control its actions. Whether he is correct or not remains to be seen, but I found it difficult to fault his argument.
There is a way to do some integration: the PA is considering running hybrid cars which will transfer onto LIRR tracks and be able to run into Penn Station. This will become a realistic option once East Side Access is completed and commuter rail track capacity under the East River is increased by 50%.
Dave spends a lot of verbiage on problems that don't exist. I am not opposed to integrating subway and airport service. But Atlanta's experience with MARTA and the separate terminal shuttle trains shows clearly that transferring per se doesn't deter anyone: the trains are full arriving at the airport, regardless of the kinds of bags carried or anything else. Newark Airport will have a similar service opening this month, including baggage checkin at the shuttle transfer station.
In the end, it won't matter which way it was accomplished. The two most important advantages are 1) it was built without using general tax funds or MTA bonds 2) it was actually built, which in NY is important. Details like how much fare is charged are easy to adjust based on ridership demand.
A lot of people in NY love to say "that plan (whatever that plan is) is garbage; use mine, it's the only one." They also like to ignore the political landscape, which is convenient and makes them look pure.
The PA got a vital project done, addressed critics adequately, got politicians to step into line, saved us a bunch of tax dollars, and prevented the airlines from pocketing the money themselves on pet projects not benefitting mass transit. They even got 90 million bucks to local, minority firms to work on the project (I used one of those firms myself to deal with a rodent problem in my house). That's not counting other minor considerations, like Rockaway Blvd reconstruction, the new York College and Aviation High School programs.
All this together is a staggering achievement. Not perfect, because some of the criticism leveled is understandable. But what achievements do the more strident critics have to point to: Editorials, posts on Subtalk, a lot of hot air (I guess in the winter that's pretty good - saves on the heating bill). Not to mention that if you told one of them "Let's see you do it," many wouldn't stand a snowflake's chance in hell of getting anything done.
In the end, it won't matter which way it was accomplished. The two most important advantages are 1) it was built without using general tax funds or MTA bonds 2) it was actually built, which in NY is important.
It is amazing how quickly work has progressed on AirTrain. Who knows, maybe MTA management will get jealous of the Port Authority's competence and will make sure that the next major subway expansion project will get completed in reasonable time.
Yes, indeed. Hope springs eternal...
it was actually built, which in NY is important.
That's the big, enourmous advantage of the project. It's actually getting built! A new section of rail transit is actually getting built! In only a few years! You suppose the PA could work some of that magic in extending subway service to eastern Queens? Nah, I guess not.
:-) Andrew
Not by itself. But you could, in combination with and/or leading others. How badly do you want it?
My first instinct was to sigh and resign myself to the fact that we were going to go at this AirTrain debate again. I personally don't think David and I will ever see eye-to-eye on the matter.
My assertion is that AirTrain is a separate system, and should be maintained as a separate system, because it serves a different purpose than the MTA's rapid transit.
As you can see in the post below, I argue that the design intent of
AirTrain is two-fold:
1) To circulate passengers within the airport, and
2) Connect passengers with transportation points outside the airport.
http://subtalk.nycsubway.org/cgi-bin/starchives.cgi?read=215000:215964
Neither of these purposes requires a one seat ride, and as far as I'm concerned, nobody has ever offered one iota of proof to contradict the Port Authority's planning studies that concluded a one-seat ride was not necessary for construction.
However, I will go on the record as saying that an excess transfer fair is unwarranted, and that there should be either a free transfer to AirTrain with MetroCard, or a standard extra fare (another $1.50, like going from PATH to NYCT).
Saying nobody will use AirTrain because it isn't a one-seat ride is like saying nobody will use PATH to get to midtown because after 34th Street, you have to transfer.
MATT-2AV
Thameslink (who together with Gatwick Express and Connex SouthCentral) serves Gatwick Airport in London. Thameslink advertises itself as the only carrier to offer a one-seat ride into downtown. Despite the slower journey time, locals usually use the Thameslink service. The tourists, on the other hand, head for the Gatwick Express just because it looks good and is supposedly an "express" service that charges a premium fare, although it is only some 5 mins faster than the fastest Connex train.
In the same way that stupid businessmen will pay to ride on the Acela, stupid people will pay to ride on Gatwick Express and the Airtrain. There are always cheaper local airport transit alternatives (for example, taking SWT to Farnham and transferring there for Heathrow instead of using the Heathrow Express). I am afraid with the way the Port Authority are handling things, the AirTrain will become the rich's choice bad-value, high-sleek-factor transportation, and the smart and the locals will continue to use MTA and the shuttle bus (assuming that PA continues to operate that bus).
"In the same way that stupid businessmen will pay to ride on the Acela, stupid people will pay to ride on Gatwick Express and the Airtrain. There are always cheaper local airport transit alternatives (for example, taking SWT to Farnham and transferring there for Heathrow instead of using the Heathrow Express). I am afraid with the way the Port Authority are handling things, the AirTrain will become the rich's choice bad-value, high-sleek-factor transportation, and the smart and the locals will continue to use MTA and the shuttle bus (assuming that PA continues to operate that bus)."
Personally, I don't see what's wrong with that. If people want to use the sleeker yet more expensive route, that is their choice. The one factor you are leaving out is the comfort associated with rail service. Do you feel that people are stupid for buying first class tickets? It's the same plane, just more comfortable to those who can afford it. If no one would pay for first class seats, then there simply wouldn't be any. The same applies here. If people refuse to pay for AirTrain because it is too expensive, then the Port Authority will be pressured to lower fares. And who told you how much an AirTrain ride will cost anyway? I don't even think that has been finalized. What if there could be a free transfer?
And you must be more specific about your criticism of the Port Authority’s handling of the situation. What do you mean by the way they handling it? You mean actually getting a massive elevated transit line constructed along a major highway that runs through densely populated neighborhoods?
I’m curious as to what you would have proposed, for the same construction cost?
Listen, I would like nothing more than a direct AirTrain link to midtown. I have long advocated for an inclusive yet separate AirTrain system; one that runs from Jamaica to LaGuardia and from Jamaica to midtown, presumably through another East River tube, with major transit connections all along the way. But for the same reason I don't own my own corporate jet, this just isn't going to be. You speak of alternatives, but right now, AirTrain is the alternative to nothing -- and the Port Authority got the job done.
Remember that AirTrain serves two purposes. Even if there is initially low ridership on the link to Howard Beach, it will accomplish the much-needed goal of circulating passengers within the airport. It is often that other railfans oversee that crucial point. Let the Port Authority worry about what to charge, at least we have something that was accomplished with the limited transit funds available in this country.
MATT-2AV
Before you slam AirTrain please make a Bus Fan trip to JFK about 8pm from Union Turnpike on the Q10 to terminal 4 then come back on the 3 bus to 169st.
Do this Before AirTrain goes into service and relieves those line.
Actually, I did precisely that -- when I flew into JFK. I vowed never to fly into JFK again and instead choose to fly to Newark NJ.
Lexcie
And it costs you at least $10 to get there so when AirTrain is working you agrue against your own point by taking the more expensive slick way to an airport.
Really living in Manhattan, Newark is the sane persons choice and if you are a psycho cheapskate you take the IKEA bus there and walk. The only free one seat ride to the airport. People do do it!
Actually, I do not argue against my own point since my usual
destination in the USA after arriving in a New York airport is not
Manhattan. It is mroe usually Boston, Washington, or Philadelphia.
The reason I use a Newark is because if you are flying from an
European provincial city, flights to all those places are usually
expensive and a pain, involving multiple transfers. I take the bus
frmo Newark to Newark Penn Station, then I enjoy the ride on Amtrak.
Usually, the overall cost comes out cheaper then doing the multiple
transfer job. I agree that this is not exactly the typical use
of New York's JFK airport, but I fail to understand why the American
population do not boycott JFK airport. Even after the AirTrain,
flynig into Newark and then taking the $4.00 bus to Penn Station and
hopping on a $2.80 NJTransit train is still cheaper than takign the
Airtrain to Jamaica and then paying the LIRR fare into downtown.
I acknowledge that I've just outlined a stupid argument, though.
You can hop an E train for a $1.50. Late at night the E homelss are less scary than the A homeless.
The Buses are the worse option to the airport.. Try the M60. It's so bad, I avoid it by using JFK most of the time. And I live about 10-15 minutes from the Airport by car.
N/W Broadway Lines
Astoria
I AGREE
I am pretty sure the PA will not continue to run the free shuttle bus after the (not-free) AirTrain to Howard Beach opens. Airport service for $1.50 will consist of only the Q10, B15, etc. buses.
That's a reasonable expectation, but not 100% certain.
That's a reasonable expectation, but not 100% certain.
Actually, it's the plan of record.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Read my thoughts on the matter, along with a hearty discussion, from the archives.
I don't agree with your specific plan (at least not right now, as a basic service) but I do agree that what's currently under construction is a mistake.
And, naturally, I will contend that a lot of the justification from that post (the Q and A) is based on false premises (esp. about the LIRR). The most I would be prepared to go is to say that even if the Howard Beach leg were possible to do as you say, the Jamaica leg was still crucial.
You've said that already. I see no need to repeat our very long discussion. I've provided a link; interested readers can read it and, should they so choose, comment here.
I read your post on AirTrain and it has one big omitted fact. The money from the $3 fee was an FAA thing and that was specifically done in a way that local governements could not get their mitts on it. Some politicians in NYC saw a way to fund the Second ave via the back door and the FAA balked.
As implemented the Airtrain has much lower operating cost than a subway. One tower, no T/O, no SA's no C/O's just CSR's.
The fare will be 1.50 or whatever a token costs at the time. At least that is what I was told when I interviewed there.
The biggest users will probably be airport workers who mostly live up near Kew Gardens and Jamaica so they can get to either airport and LI people. The biggest winners are people who have to transfer between terminals at JFK or even btween JFK and LGA (it will shave time).
This is found money, expecting it to solve a problem that the local government had ignored for decades is unrealistic.
Plusses as it is not part of the MTA, running it is by 5 year contract. Can you imagine, service sucks send in your own bid to run it.
Personally I think Union Turnpike would have made a better transfer point. In your post you neglected to mention that the E and J are there too.
The biggest users will probably be airport workers who mostly live up near Kew Gardens and Jamaica so they can get to either airport and LI people.
According to the DEIS, the biggest use (from outside the airport) will come from the long term and employee parking lots.
Touche!
The biggest use from Jamaica will be airport workers.
I read your post on AirTrain and it has one big omitted fact. The money from the $3 fee was an FAA thing and that was specifically done in a way that local governements could not get their mitts on it. Some politicians in NYC saw a way to fund the Second ave via the back door and the FAA balked.
I addressed that in question 13.
As implemented the Airtrain has much lower operating cost than a subway. One tower, no T/O, no SA's no C/O's just CSR's.
But there is also substantial overhead in operating an independent system, maintaining an extra station and transfer point (those elevators at Howard Beach had better not break down!), etc.
The fare will be 1.50 or whatever a token costs at the time. At least that is what I was told when I interviewed there.
That's not the number that's been posted here. Still, why should there be a double fare to the airport but not, say, to the bus station?
The biggest users will probably be airport workers who mostly live up near Kew Gardens and Jamaica so they can get to either airport and LI people. The biggest winners are people who have to transfer between terminals at JFK or even btween JFK and LGA (it will shave time).
Isn't that a shame? The system could be popular among many of the New Yorkers who take cabs to the airport, but in its current implementation that seems most unlikely.
This is found money, expecting it to solve a problem that the local government had ignored for decades is unrealistic.
Why can't the found money be used where it would have the greatest benefit?
Plusses as it is not part of the MTA, running it is by 5 year contract. Can you imagine, service sucks send in your own bid to run it.
Interesting point, but since just about anyone who rides the AirTrain to Howard Beach will be transferring to the subway, does it mean much?
Personally I think Union Turnpike would have made a better transfer point. In your post you neglected to mention that the E and J are there too.
I explicitly mentioned the E/J/Z transfer at Jamaica, although my post dealt primarily with the Howard Beach transfer.
>I addressed that in question 13.
Saying it and getting it are two differnt things. Like nobody else thought of this and tried to fight for this. The FEDs said no and the Airports have more say with the PA and a renewable contract than they would with the MTA.
>That's not the number that's been posted here. Still, why should >there be a double fare to the airport but not, say, to the bus >station?
Why should it be free within the terminals, it's the FAA's baby not the MTA's. I guess those sneaky Canadians lied to me or were misinformed. I intervied in Decemer 2000 and that was the fare they quoted.
>Isn't that a shame? The system could be popular among many of the >New Yorkers who take cabs to the airport, but in its current >implementation that seems most unlikely.
Isn't it a shame that people in Northern Queens and Long Island get a bone that Manhattanites can't gnaw on.
Something like a quarter of travellers are on business and get cabs or limos already and are not likely to change. Anyone that is more than a few blocks from the subway station will either keep taking a cab or if the schlep all their cases around not be fazed by an extra transfer point.
>But there is also substantial overhead in operating an independent >system, maintaining an extra station and transfer point (those >elevators at Howard Beach had better not break down!), etc.
Everyone gets paid SHIT, SHIT SHIT SHIT. They staff a train for about one fourth of what the TA does. If this was a TA operation there would be a few extra P/R people to cut checks and distribute them etc. P/R clerks at airtrain gets paid SHIT.
And the TA is the worst offender, seperate crew offices numbers for each title and divison. Private line busses, etc.
>Why can't the found money be used where it would have the greatest >benefit?
Because it is not MTA money. Remember the Westway trade off we got crappy highway AND crappy subways. The state would cut the operating subsidy to match whatever the FAA forked over.
>Interesting point, but since just about anyone who rides the >AirTrain to Howard Beach will be transferring to the subway, does it
>mean much?
Sure it means that people will use it. Although I have been told Logterm parking will be the big destination in another post.
>I explicitly mentioned the E/J/Z transfer at Jamaica, although my >post dealt primarily with the Howard Beach transfer.
Riding the A to the J to the E is a nightmare East NY is not luggage or people friendly. Also cabs won't even take you if you are from Queens. Late at night this is a problem when the cab stands are closed. Jamaica also gives access to the Q44 to Flushing and the Bronx with only one transfer.
"The fare will be 1.50 or whatever a token costs at the time. At least that is what I was told when I interviewed there.
That's not the number that's been posted here. Still, why should there be a double fare to the airport but not, say, to the bus station?"
David,
I seriously doubt that any of the numbers previously posted here are accurate. I sensed a lot of speculation and hearsay, and the fare is subject to change. Does anyone have a source on these numbers?
The Port Authority would have used planning numbers, but in the end, the fare will be set at whatever they feel they can get away with and maintain ridership.
As for why there should be an AirTrain fare? That's simple: to cover the cost of construction and operation. Where else would the money come from? For the record, I do advocate a free NYCT to AirTrain transfer, if the funds are available.
I also disagree that construction and operation costs would be lower if the system were connected. NYCT couldn't get the JFK train-to-plane to work correctly. From what I gather, it was an operational headache, and it just stopped at one terminus. With the added operational complexity of making stops at each terminal plus the elaborate routing of AirTrain, I seriously doubt the situation would improve.
We've also had the discussion on how construction costs are lower for a separate system.
MATT-2AV
Nicely argued, Matt.
I think the jfk exp should be back in service with its on fare or some one should use the redbirds ( IF THEY R STILL AROUND BUY SOME OR RENT THEM>......I HAVENT BEEN IN THE CITY SINCE 97 ,,..... and start their own system. Maybe on their old track? :(
john
i think maybe it's a good idea. considering i never did that run befor.
what do you think
Um, the Redbirds are Division A stock. The JFK express ran on Division B rails.
Jump the gap with your suitcases!
Watch out for the trip-arms on the wrong side!
Yes!!!!
John
The TA was asked that question recently and declined to support the idea due to the A trains increased use of the express track.
I seriously doubt that any of the numbers previously posted here are accurate. I sensed a lot of speculation and hearsay, and the fare is subject to change. Does anyone have a source on these numbers?
My source is earlier posts on this board, from a year ago or more. They may be inaccurate but they're the only numbers I've seen at all.
I do think it's clear from the PA's web page that the fare will be greater than $0. That means that the city that so proudly eliminated the two-fare zone a few years ago will soon be reintroducing it.
The Port Authority would have used planning numbers, but in the end, the fare will be set at whatever they feel they can get away with and maintain ridership.
Do you think the TA should set fares similarly? (That's not a rhetorical question. I'd like to learn if you treat a line to the airport as something fundamentally diffeernt from a line to anywhere else. I don't.)
As for why there should be an AirTrain fare? That's simple: to cover the cost of construction and operation. Where else would the money come from?
I don't know. Where should the money come from for the 63rd Street connection? Where should the money come from for the 2nd Avenue line, if it's ever built?
For the record, I do advocate a free NYCT to AirTrain transfer, if the funds are available.
Do you advocate a free transfer to the 63rd Street connection only on condition that the funds are available?
I also disagree that construction and operation costs would be lower if the system were connected. NYCT couldn't get the JFK train-to-plane to work correctly. From what I gather, it was an operational headache, and it just stopped at one terminus. With the added operational complexity of making stops at each terminal plus the elaborate routing of AirTrain, I seriously doubt the situation would improve.
The JFK Express failed because it was essentially the A train (skipping a few stops in Brooklyn but still getting stuck behind other trains making those stops) for a premium fare. I don't think there were any operational problems; the service just didn't offer much that wasn't available for the standard subway fare.
I don't think it's right to force potentially hundreds of passengers trying to get to JFK to transfer at Howard Beach so the TA and PA don't have to sit down and figure out how to supply an integrated service.
We've also had the discussion on how construction costs are lower for a separate system.
And I can't see how that could possibly be the case. The Howard Beach AirTrain station alone is surely very expensive, and with through service it wouldn't even exist.
I'll never understand the TA. The decision making process blows my mind.
For months, residents of Queens have been forced to endure unnecessary reroutings, and track closings, all in the name of "track work". Yet, I have yet to see any signs of track work taking place. Not a worker. Not a work train. Maybe there is some kind of track work taking place, and I always miss seeing any sign of it. Maybe not. Either way, it's clear that the TA is closing the express track between Queens Plaza and Roosevelt unnecessarily.
Aside from the express track closing, here is something I just don't understand:
For the last year, there have been constant GO's on the Queens Blvd lines. The most common weekend GO had the following;
F 179-Coney Island via 63rd connector
R Jamaica Center- 95th Brooklyn via 60th tunnel
E no service
2 trains= 2 tunnels Simple enough? Not for the advanced minds of the TA.
During the past two weekends, only one tunnel was being used to connect Queens Blvd trains to Manhattan. The 63rd tunnel.
The TA's response? Increase service! Run three trains. E, F, R, all in one tunnel.
The result? You guessed it. 15, 20, 25 minutes delays going into the city. It was sickening all weekend. Not just for the passengers, but employees too. Some told me that the long delays cut into their breaks. Some told me that it would cause unwanted OT. Either way, no one gains from this.
It scares me to know that someone in the decision making process at the TA is so stupid.
I am going to contact the Straphangers organization about this constant mess in Queens. I am also contacting several journalists who like to write "favorable" columns about the TA.
Hopefully, someone with authority over the genius minds who created two weekends of unnecessary delays, will prevent similar problems in the future, whether it be the result of complaints from the Straphangers organization, or unfavorable media coverage.
But judging from what I see, it's all going to get alot worse before it gets better. A once great system has turned into a cesspool of imcompetence.
That's incompetence. Sorry for the spelling error.
See what being a constant victim of the city does to you?
I do wonder why the TA has been running the E, F, and R all through 63rd. Wouldn't it make more sense to cancel the E and extend the R, as has been done most other weekends?
But to be fair, I've been through Queens a few times this weekend and last and I didn't encounter any delays.
At least your diversions are posted -- all over the place, on nice, large, glossy signs. Look what happened to the W.
Honestly, the delays were horrible at various points both weeekends, and many TA personnel agreed with me too.
I don't deny it. I'm just pointing out that they weren't in place all day. I guess I was just lucky.
There has been a lot of electrical work going on at Queens Plaza during the last couple of weeks. They are hooking up new signals and are closing Queens Plaza interlocking in favor of Queensboro Plaza interlocking. Frankly, I since the E was running with the F in both directions all the way thru Queens to W.4th St., I was just kind of curious why the R & E services weren't combined like they have been in then past in order to cut down on the congestion..........Disclaimer: I am a NYCT employee and have nothing to do with the decision making process.
Are both these interlockings below ground on the main line?
No, IINM, the new one is in a little corrogated metal shack at the west end of the Queensboro Plaza Station, up on the El. (He's talking about the control machines rather than the track switches.)
Thanks. I need that explanation!
The GO combining E&R lines was a disaster. I had one trip PAE to 95th but so many E and R crews complained. Some R crews had two trip plus deadhead time and many screwed up the early report or complained about the deadhead or the extra work and the TA tried to change the report location for R crews to PAE to save some $$ and that went over like a lead ballon. The E crews were equally stinky about it Personally I would prefer 2 to 95th than 3 to Whitehall but lots of complaints (I picked the E not the R). There were lots of ABD's and there were fights about that.
Plus I think they wanted to use this to test the connector with a rush hour level of traffic.
ABD's? What are those?
ABDs are abandoned trains in TA speak.
Peace,
ANDEE
Many thanks.
The final service plan will have only the F running through 63rd Street. It will not have to merge with the R as it did this past weekend.
But in practice it will as a few R's a week will go thru to relieve whatever problems come up during the rush. The weekend Day serice was almost a perfect simulation E&F weekend service is close to F rush service and you threw in the R service to simulate a re route total 18-23 tph in the connector.
How will R's be able to use the connector with Q's terminating at 57th? This weekend the Q was cut back to 42nd to make room for the R.
The same way they have been doing it when things blow up. They do it now just not with something else running up via 6th at the same time to add to the confusion.
Usually only 3-4 trains are involved before things go back to normal. And it helps to prevent massive gaps going back the other way.
Again, just because you don't see it, doesn't mean something is not being done. Perhaps they are rewireing the signal system. Maybe they're working in the tunnel the express tracks run through that's seperate from the local tracks. Maybe they're working on the express side of the platform, and need to block the tracks.
This is the 5th or 6th time you've posted the exact same complaint, and guess what? The answer never changes.
-Hank
Thanks for a very funny (if uninformed) post.
You mean to tell us there are columnists who actually like the subway?
Uninformed? Explain yourself. How many delays on the Queens corridor have you been in in the last few weeks? If I actually witnessed everything I am posting, why am I uninformed?
none
I don't deny your delays. I do think it's ridiculous to try to look out a train window and complain that you don't "see" what the TA is working on. Next time, why not call ahead and demand that a flagman have a big sign that says "Look over here! This is what we're working on!"
I must have ridden the Northern Blvd. express tracks on the E and F a few thousand times. I didn't see them place the switches for the 63rd St Connector. Heavens! Does that mean they're not there?
Find something else to worry about...
Look, when you ride the trains EVERYDAY, and see no sign any track workers, or work trains, then what other conclusion would one draw?
I think you're a professional websurfer, who will post about anything, just for the sake of posting. God, judging from your presense on this site, you must be devoting a minimum of 8 hours a day. Maybe more.
Maybe I'm not the one who should find something else to worry about.
Sometimes it isn't track work that causes a track to go out of service. It could be signal work, repairs to the tower interlocking machine, work outside on the street or, as was the case this weekend, bringing a new tower online. Unfortunately, you can't always see this work.
Some of this work is deep in the tunnel when there is a GO or in a relay room and needs a GO to hookup new circuits to old etc.
The confines of those under-river tubes are the last place I'd want to work.Especially those Steinway tubes. I wouldn't want to get stuck down there. Actually in big blackout of 1965 there was a 7 train stuck in the Steinway tubes and people had to be escorted out of the tunnels. Also many spent the night in a train stuck in the 60th street tube. Boy what a frightening experience. The blackout must've been something to experience. Hopefully things today are much better and that won't happen again. If it does lets hope I'm not in the city!
Track workers have it rough, they work in terrible conditions and keep our subways running, they deserve alot more credit instead of complaints.
That happened to be an Express train. I had stayed after school for a bowling club meeting. Got to the 7 platform, just as a local pulled out. An express came next. While waiting for the next local, a TS bound train in the station had the lights go out, but the platform was lit. The Flushing local coasted in with no lights. Got the doors opened. We all got on and waited. Then the platform went dark. Eventually rumors flew that there was a blackout upstairs. We were led out by workers with flashlights and smokers with cigarette lighters.
Waited on the uptown side of 5th Ave for two hours to get on a #15 to Jackson Heights. Finally took a s/b 15 to 23rd st and waited for it to turn around.
So I guess the city didn't go out at once but sections failed like "dominos". According to an aircheck of Dan Ingram on WABC 770 at the time, the records started slowing and studio lights dimming before power was lost.
I guess some trains can coast into a stations, but in a power failure don't the trip arms go up, thus a train will go into BIE when it passes one. So if you're on an N train going 50mph downhill into the 60th street tube and power goes out. If trip arms go up than the train will get stuck, whereas if they don't the train will be able to "coast" to the next station? IN actuality the grade of 60th is so steep it probably wouldn't have enough momentum on the uphill. My guess is to prevent accidents when signal power is lost trip arms go up. Correct me if I'm wrong.
My guess is to prevent accidents when signal power is lost trip arms go up.
You are correct.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
For months, residents of Queens have been forced to endure unnecessary reroutings, and track closings, all in the name of "track work". Yet, I have yet to see any signs of track work taking place. Not a worker. Not a work train. Maybe there is some kind of track work taking place, and I always miss seeing any sign of it.
Good point. The only difference that I have visually seen from those "track works" and postings is that the T/A has painted the entire exterior n/b wall of Lexington Av. - 53rd St. with WHITE paint. Other than that, the T/A must have been rewiring some signals and Queens Plaza was closed too.
One other thing, I have seen construction workers drill, "peck", and hammer a section of a track switch near Queens Plaza. I observed this keenly as we were passing by them slowly on an E train to Manhattan. But other "track work" which is associated and maintained by the T/A is "intangible", or which cannot be seen or felt physically.
Either way, it's clear that the TA is closing the express track between Queens Plaza and Roosevelt unnecessarily.
I have experienced trouble with this too. Every time we arrive Queens Plaza from Manhattan, I am always in doubt if the E that I'm riding on will go express or local. For the past few weekends, (before the 2 weekend 63rd St.) the E and F have been using the express rails very well. But from another SubTalker, he reported that the T/A is rewiring every signal in the express tunnel to be set for the "Queens master". Whatsoever that is, I guess I'll have to comply with it.
During the past two weekends, only one tunnel was being used to connect Queens Blvd trains to Manhattan. The 63rd tunnel.
The TA's response? Increase service! Run three trains. E, F, R, all in one tunnel.
The result? You guessed it. 15, 20, 25 minutes delays going into the city. It was sickening all weekend. Not just for the passengers, but employees too. Some told me that the long delays cut into their breaks. Some told me that it would cause unwanted OT. Either way, no one gains from this.
I agree that it could cause some congestion because of this. (Un)fortunately, we took the Flushing line through the Steinway tubes to get to Queens from Manhattan instead, because we were late for church. I think it would've been a good thing to avoid the 63rd St. tunnel disaster, well maybe I could pop in a few memories or so.
The Flushing line is the most undisrupted line that runs from Manhattan to Queens. I think it's the best choice. although they still have those W/F and MainLine Redbirds which go squeaky squeaky when they start. Construction is minimal on this elevated stretch.
It scares me to know that someone in the decision making process at the TA is so stupid.
Don't blame them. Every New Yorker, visitor, including you, are lucky enough that the IRT, IND, and BMT rail co.'s ever built the Subway back in 1880 in the first place, and the MTA taking over the whole thing to maintain it and fix it and such.
I know the T/A has been thinking up plans out of the Milky Way Galaxy, but what have we citizens to handle it? Just flow with the process. It won't last forever, although I have a feeling the construction will be literally never ending. I was hoping for a time that ALL of the subway lines in NY had NO SERVICE ADVISORIES at all.
PLEASE NOTE: If you think the MTA is .... ..[I shouldn't be impolite but....."(whack)", take a look at MTA's website at the Capital Program page. You'll find startling information on dates which date forward into 2016 and 2020 FOR UPDATING AND MAINTAINING RAIL SHOPS, YARDS, AND REWIRING (updating) SIGNALS for the MTA!!!!!!!
I'll end it here.. .
Best luck to you from,
Railfan Pete.
Don't blame them. Every New Yorker, visitor, including you, are lucky enough that the IRT, IND, and BMT rail co.'s ever built the Subway back in 1880 in the first place, and the MTA taking over the whole thing to maintain it and fix it and such.
I think it's time for Pete to enroll in Subway History 101. The course materials are all available right on this web site.
I know the T/A has been thinking up plans out of the Milky Way Galaxy, but what have we citizens to handle it? Just flow with the process. It won't last forever, although I have a feeling the construction will be literally never ending. I was hoping for a time that ALL of the subway lines in NY had NO SERVICE ADVISORIES at all.
The TA had a deferred maintenance policy for a few decades. The system nearly collapsed as a result. We're still making up for that now.
>>For months, residents of Queens have been forced to endure unnecessary reroutings, and track closings, all in the name of "track work". Yet, I have yet to see any signs of track work taking place. Not a worker. Not a work train. Maybe there is some kind of track work taking place, and I always miss seeing any sign of it. Maybe not. Either way, it's clear that the TA is closing the express track between Queens Plaza and Roosevelt unnecessarily.<<
Again, just because you don't see a work train DOES NOT mean that no work is taking place.
>>The TA's response? Increase service! Run three trains. E, F, R, all in one tunnel.<<
>>The result? You guessed it. 15, 20, 25 minutes delays going into the city. It was sickening all weekend. Not just for the passengers, but employees too. Some told me that the long delays cut into their breaks. Some told me that it would cause unwanted OT. Either way, no one gains from this.<<
I don't understand this either, but perhaps you should take this into consideration:
The B/D/Q (now the Q, < Q >, W) all used the same trackage just fine for years during rush hour. So, I'm guessing that they made a guess that it would be safe to operate these trains together. (I mean, the TA had a prime example to base their facts on, so why not go on this, hmm?)
>>But judging from what I see, it's all going to get alot worse before it gets better. A once great system has turned into a cesspool of imcompetence.<<
Oh. I see. You have to suffer, and now it's a "cesspool of incompetence". I would hardly call one weekend of delays 'incompetence'. And, there was an article in the Sunday Times (well in the past now) about the people who write up the re-routes. So, you may be able to write to the Times, and find the journalist who wrote this article. Then, you could find out just who is writing these G/O's.
I swear, anytime that you have the slightest problem, it's the TA being incompetent. They do have reasons for what they do, though it might not be apparent to you.
Well I guess I can be greatful not to have to be around stuff like that. Maybe I can remember that when I'm stuck on a traffic choked freeway waiting to go somewhere. I then can say I haven't got it so bad. Still, that would only be small consolation.
One weekend? Wrong. It was two weekends of 3 trains sharing one track into Manhattan. But in reality, there is some kind of rerouting EVERY WEEK.
Look, service to the Queens Corridor will never be normal on weekends. Passengers will always have to go out of their way to find out what this week's formula for disaster is.
And as far as the work trains, and workers that I never see, well, maybe you're right, maybe I'm right. My point is that the track closings are excessive, and probably unnecessary most of the time.
I swear, anytime that you have the slightest problem, it's the TA being incompetent. They do have reasons for what they do, though it might not be apparent to you.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Loco. If I complained every time I had a problem, you'd see my name up here five or six times a week. Don't be a mark! I know you love trains. We all love trains. But we should be able to speak our mind, and tell the truth about the TA.
And if you think I was mad, you should have seen some of the crews on the E, F, and R trains. They were just as angry, and agreed with everything I am saying. They're just too afraid to come out and say so.
That's right. The red lights were not blocking the express tracks yesterday, they were "open" between Roosevelt and 36th. The trains still went local. Anyone care to explain that?
I don't like the T/A when they do that.
Anyone know what a "Queensmaster" is?
: |
Railfan Pete.
>>Anyone know what a "Queensmaster" is?<<
The new Queens Plaza Master Tower.
Not a dominatrix for homosexuals?
Well that explains it. A SubTalker informed me about why the express tracks were closed for so long, especially on the weekends, and he said the T/A was rewiring all of the signals for the "Queensmaster".
They should have the express rails up and running normally soon, INCLUDING weekends.
He also mentioned "just wait until they get to the local tracks."
: )
Railfan Pete.
The Master Tower is at Queensboro Plaza (upstairs on the structure) Didn't I just go through this with my Towers page. This morning should have seen the end of Queens plaza Tower
There is this DUDE, wearing an all white suit, white hat and gloves.
He has a diamond pinky ring and his front teeth are all capped in GOLD!
He can be found sitting on a throne like gilded chair. In the masters room he can monitor all of his empire.
To do this, to watch his ladies movements, he needs signals , to better keep a tight rein on them.....
The GO was still in effect.
-Hank
God Hank, you'll do anything to defend the incompetence of the TA.
Just as you seem to do anything to criticize them. I've pointed out SEVERAL things that easily counter your bitch session, but you don't seem to be interested.
Just because you can't see it doesn't mean there isn't anything happening.
I don't suppose you've ever seen a radio wave, have you? But you know it's there, because when you turn on the radio or the TV, you've got sound and maybe a picture.
You sound like one of those moonie conspirists.
-Hank
LOL. Your come back certainly puts me in my place. But I'll never be convinced that the express tracks between Roosevelt and Queens Blvd really needed to be closed down every single weekend, since last October.
There probably is some kind of work being done somewhere. But does it really justify eliminating express service in Western Queens every weekend? Of course not.
I'm not disputing that. It's just that they never have any kind of work being done (that would require track closure) without the red light protection at the last possibly turnout. The trains should have been allowed to run express since therefore was no work being done.
I started this argument months ago. I gave up and did not post here for a long time. Since then, I still have not seen any sign of track work taking place on weekends.
Unfortunately, we'll never convince Traindude of this.
I explained it. INCOMPETENCE is the TA's moto. There was no real reason to close the express tracks. I have already contacted the STRAPHANGERS Org. Let's hope they investigate this. It's gone on for too long.
The red lights were in place at the switch just before 36th street, blocking the express tracks along with a temporary trip arm. I saw it from the railfan window on an R32 E train coming out of connector and switching to the local track.
Does it really matter? There was no reason to close those express tracks for the entire weekend. This has been going on since last October. EVERY WEEKEND? Come on. We all know what is really going on. Nothing.
I didn't check for that, but southbound the track was open.
Perhaps so that the few passengers who bother to read the service notices don't get dragged past their stops.
Thank you!!!!! Finally, someone willing to offer an answer, other than the lame, "track work" excuse.
Those bastards!!!! If I told them once, I told them 1,000 times that before they do any work, you should be informed personally as to the entire workscope and schedule. I've told them over and over that it's not enough to post service diversion notices. They should tell you exactly what they are planning and see if you have a better idea as to how it should be done. Shit, with all your years of experience in power distribution and signal installation, you could probably have gotten it done while trains were operating. Who needs to keep to a schedule? Who needs to do any testing? And if you finish early - open the track early. Anyone who doesn't get the message and is on the tracks by mistake - screw the bastard. It's too bad that all the geniuses like you are not working for the TA and all us idiots are.
For a second, I thought you were being sarcastic there.
Who? Me?
It still does not explain why the TA ran only two trains, the F and R on weekends 9 out 10 times this year, then expanded to E, F, and R service during the only two weekends when they knew that there would be only one tunnel connecting Queens to Manhattan.
Explain that.
I guess you didn't get the message. It was necessary! It was done! The express tracks were closed. It didn't make sense to run 3 locals and since the E & R are so geographically close in Manhattan, that was the way it worked out.
Now I get the message. The almighty TrainDude has spoken, and all must listen.
Truth be told. Poor planning on the part of the TA lead to 20-30 minute delays into Manhattan for the past two weekends. And many T/O's and C/R's involved in the mess agreed with me. One even posted in response to my initial message.
I can't wait until I start T/O training in January. By then, they'll be up to my number. It'll be fun working with you.
Okay, I'll play. Explain to me what poor planning caused 20-30 minute delays? Either you or one of those involved can tell me. I'd really be interested in your response. Please give me a specific instance...
A specific instance? GOD. You really don't understand just how rough the subways can be.
Last Saturday, 8/25, I entered a Manhattan-bound R train at Steinway. My destination was Lexington/63rd. How long do you think it took to get there? 35 minutes!
This past Saturday, I entered a Manhattan-bound F at Continental. Once we got to Roosevelt, it was a disaster. I arrived in Manhattan at 9:45, when I told people I would be there at 9:30. Normally, the trip would take about 25-30 minutes. But because the TA decided after one year, it's time to run all three Queens Blvd trains to Manhattan through one tunnel, me trip was extended by about 20 minutes.
I spend the entire trip talking to a T/O who was on his way to work on the 3 line. He was going to get off and take a cab, because he was afraid he'd be late. He shot down my theory that there is no kind of track work taking place on the express tracks, but he was in total agreement with my opinion that the TA should have waited another week before restoring E service on weekends.
Yesterday, Labor Day was the worst. At 4pm, EVERY Manhattan-bound E, F, R train took about 20 minutes longer than normal to go from Roosevelt to Lexington/63rd.
And I'm glad you'll play. Unfortunately, this topic is no joke.
"You really don't understand just how rough the subways can be."
Yeah, you are probably right. I started riding the subways way back in the early 60s, going to and from school. For the last 20 or so, I've been riding them regularly to and from work. I spend every working day on the subways and I haven't got a F#%&ing clue?
I asked you a specific question. You still have not explained what aspect of poor planning caused your alleged delays. There may have been delays. But some of you must live with a damn dark cloud over your heads. I ride the trains almost every working day. I ride them AMs, PMs and midnights. I ride on weekdays and weekends. I'm rarely delayed more than a few minutes so you'll forgive me if I find all of this just a bit far-fetched.
Here's a thought. All of the dispatcher's sheets for 8/25 are down-town. Why don't you write a letter of complaint that at a specific time it took you 35 minutes to go from Steinway Street to 63rd & Lex on an R train. Ask them why and then post the answer. I'm quite sure that it was not exactly as you remember it and if it did take that long, it was not due to 'planning'.
As for your alleged #3 train operator, two thoughts. First, how would he know what G.O.s are in effect. T/Os have enough trouble keeping track of the G.O.s in their own divisions. Secondly, if the T/O was going to be late due to a significant disruption in train service, his lateness would be excused. Why then would he opt to take a cab. Your account is more like a slice of alpine lece - too many holes...
Look. The poor planning was running three trains through one tunnel between Manhattan and Queens. It caused serious delays. Don't you understand that?
As for the alleged 3 T/O, he was a passenger coming from Jamaica, on his way to work he got off with me at Lex. I don't think there is any reason to not believe me, unless the truth hurts.
3 services through one tunnel on a weekend? At what intervals? I don't think so. Since all 3 were coming from the same track and going from the same track, no switching even at 6 minute intervals on each line, the tunnel can handle the traffic flow. So you're correct, I don't understand that. Why don't you explain to me how 3 trains running at 8 to 10 minute intervals through the tunnel have serious delays.
As to the rest of your story, I don't know if the truth hurts. You've yet to convince me that it's the truth. Either way, I'm sure the truth can't hurt as much as when you get up to speed and step on your fingers.
What happened was that the E,F and R trains were running at 8 minute intervals on Saturday, and were running on one track from Roosevelt Av to Lexington/63.
Services became really backed up and were arriving at their terminals 20+ minutes late. It got so bad that the Control Center ordered the headways for all 3 lines cut back to 12 minute intervals for the rest of Saturday, and all day on Sunday. And even then, trains were struggling to get in within the 5 minute on time cushion.
I guess you could compare the situation to the 7 line. With the 3 services at an 8 minute headway, that would mean a train every 2 minutes and 40 seconds. One train with a door problem, or one delay giving a lineup can screw things up pretty good.
Thanks for the information. Was the back-up due to a train with mechanical failure - switch/signal trouble - or other factors?
Jesus Christ! He just told you why the backups were so bad. E, F, R all merging onto the local track between Roosevelt/74 and Manhattan, lead to serious congestion.
The same exact thing happened the previous weekend(8/25-8/26), and the TA knew the same thing would happen Labor Day weekend. But the TA said "what the f*ck", it's them(passengers and crews) not us who has to deal with it".
You're babbling about mechanical problems aboard a train, and switch problems, when the real problem is clear to everyone but you. The TA wrote a bad GO. People make mistakes. Unfortunately, they happen far too frequently in TA management.
Look, if I want information from you you, you'll know it because I'll be asking you. You've established exactly zero credibility with me. YOU ARE NOT QUALIFIED TO TELL ANYONE WHAT A GOOD G.O. IS AND WHAT IS NOT A GOOD G.O.. Something caused the back-up and I'm still waiting to know what it is. In the meantime, you've done nothing but confirm that my first impression of you was correct.
Yes,something caused the backup. Too many trains using one track. That'll do it most of the time. Add some confused passengers holding doors, etc.... and you'll have delays.
I'm going to give you the benifit of the doubt and let you show that you are not as stupid as you seem. The track is designed to handle 36 TPH. There is no switching going on and no convergence of routes. If the 3 lines are running on an 8 minute headway, trains are running every 2:40 (keep your shoes on) that's roughly 24 trains per hour - how is that too many trains on one track? Why is there no backup in Queens? Now, while you are at it Goob, why don't you tell me where you've got all your formal training in mass transit management. Tell us who actually writes the G.O. and how many divisions actually have imput or a say in its approval.
On paper, you're right. But in reality, as you read from Zman's post, things were a mess. Why don't you ask some T/O's who worked this past weekend for their real life account of what they think went wrong?
I don't believe that the reason for the delays was solely due to too many trains. The 7 during the rush hour has a 90 second headway and is able to maintain a rather smooth operation. The E/F/R was running at a combined 160 second headway. On this reason alone, there should be no reason for any delays. But those "unforeseen circumstances" can be quite a b*tch at times.
I thought the problem was at Roosevelt. Even though headways were 160 seconds on paper, you'll find that two express trains arrive back to back, while an R local arrives at the same time. Now, you have an R on the local track, and an F crossing over to the local track before the R can continue. This delays both the R and waiting E train. Finally, the waiting E pulls into Roosevelt, and people run over to the R because they figure it might leave first. They hold the doors, bug the conductor, and the R is delayed even further. Now, by the time all this happens, the next batch of E and F trains are catching up to Roosevelt Ave, and you have delays.
The E and F trains are like this every morning. Tomorrow, I'll barely miss my F train to the city from Continental. 30 seconds later, an R-32 E will pull into Continental. I'll get on, and we'll sit behind the F at Roosevelt, Queens Plaza, and Lexington for sure.
>>>>>>>The E and F trains are like this every morning. Tomorrow, I'll barely miss my F train to the city from Continental. 30 seconds later, an R-32 E will pull into Continental. I'll get on, and we'll sit behind the F at Roosevelt, Queens Plaza, and Lexington for sure.
Of course it will. You should be used to the drill by now.
If you have a little extra time, instead of riding the R and changing at Roosevelt, ride the G instead and change at Queens Plaza. You should have a seat on the G to Queens Plaza, and you shouldn't lose any substantial time since the E/F service usually runs slow, and the G/R run regular during the AM rush.
Today, I was on an express, and we left Continental at the same time as a s/b R. I saw that same train at Queens Plaza. Car 5805 was the last car s/b.
We sat between Roosevelt and Queens Plaza forever. We had this annoying conductor who tries to make railroad style announcements. He really tried to sound more distinguished than most conductors.
I've had occasion to find out how much LACK of G.O.s, and cancelled G.O.s. push up the cost of subway rehabilitation. After a few months on the inside, I'd say we'd be better off with complete shutdowns ie. the 2/3 in Harlem and the Willie B.
The Flushing Line is especially affected: no work during the U.S. Open, no work when the Mets are in town, no work during holiday shopping, etc. There are all these rules for G.O.s. Everyone from those organizing big parades to the Bronx Zoo says stop work at one point or another, and if there is too much other work going on they shut down your job so people won't get diverted twice.
Big, big bucks.
Why don't you ask some T/O's who worked this past weekend for their real life account of what they think went wrong?
If you follow the thread back just a few posts you will find out that i was attempting to do just that when you interjected yourself into the discussion by suggesting that the poster had already answered my question. Now, while you (with your novice understanding of the system) may have been satisfied by the answer, I was not and asked for a clarification. That additional question seemed to bother you. Perhaps you should come to realize that you simply do not know as much as you think you do. Stop flapping, sit quietly, listen and learn something.
If the 3 lines are running on an 8 minute headway, trains are running every 2:40 (keep your shoes on) that's roughly 24 trains per hour - how is that too many trains on one track?
That's not the entire story. You also have to make sure that all the trains arrive at the merge point at 160 second intervals. Ordinarilly, the E and F are scheduled to alternate every 4 minutes on Saturdays. If they kept the same departure times to effect the merge at VanWyck or Forest Hills, then one would expect them to arrive at Roosevelt at :00:00(E), :04:00(F), :08:00(E), :12:00(F), :16:00(E), etc. Merging the R in at Roosevelt would then yield spacing like: :00:00(E), :02:00(R), :04:00(F), :08:00(E), :10:00(R), :12:00(F), :16:00(E), etc. If the tower wants to equalize headways then the trains should leave at :00:00(E), :02:40(R), :05:20(F), 08:00(E), 10:40(R), 13:20(F), :16:00(E), etc. This means that the first express, e.g. E, will not be delayed; the local will be delayed 40 seconds and the second express, e.g. F, will be delayed 80 seconds.
The normal way to eliminate such problems would be to equalize the merges or run the E/F merge with unequal headways. The former solution would involve also running the G at 8 minute intervals. This would permit 30 tph operation with no delays to equalize the headways at Roosevelt. The latter would involve starting the E and F at intervals of 00:00, 05:20, 08:00, 13:20, 16:00, etc. The R would be scheduled at 02:40, 10:40, etc. This would mean that stations with joint E/F service would have unequal headways. The average passenger entering at these stations would suffer the same delay. The difference is that this delay would be waiting on the platform instead of waiting in the train. Also, this delay would be limited to only to the passengers boarding at these stations not to the all passengers on the R and F.
Which choice did operations make?
There should be more fun when the V comes on line. They are planning to run the R and V at 6 minute headways, each (3 min combined) and the E and F at 4 minute headways, each (2 min combined). It's mathematically impossible to avoid merging conflicts with this combination.
IMO, one of the big reasons for the backups was waiting for lineups at 21 Street and at Lexington. Southbound at 21-Queensbridge, you had to punch at a red homeball for the lineup and then you had to wait about 2 minutes for the lineup to come in since the tower isn't fully operational. Couple this with 2 min 40 sec headways, and voila.
None of the trains I rode last weekend had to stop outside 21st -- at all, let alone for two minutes.
Therefore, if what you are saying is true, you just proved my point. If the trains would have been on time save for the time waiting for the master tower to clear off the signal, then it was signal trouble or human error that caused the delay. It was not poor planning of the G.O. as suggested by the 'less informed' poster who started this thread.
Had the TA not sent so many trains down one track, at one time, the master tower would not have been backed up so much, and service would have been better. The human error was made in an office by someone who did not realize that trying to merge three trains onto one track, would eventually cause congestion.
Since you rank so high in the TA, certainly you can easily contact a few E, F, or R T/O's to find out what they think the problem was.
Or perhaps the tower was overwhelmed? As I understand it, they're wiring the place up. Have you ever worked in a facility with a lot of equipment stuffed into a small place with NEW equipment and OLD equipment vying for that space? Ever BEEN in a tower? Not exactly spacious when it's all buttoned up and running under normal circumstances.
I'd be willing to bet there's stuff all over the floor in there, wiring hanging from the ceiling and a number of things that make an already difficult job in there almost impossible. However if there was a TW/O literally asleep at the switch, I'd say burn him. :)
But I doubt this was the case. Maybe if you're nice to Train Dude, he just might somehow find a way to get you a tour of a tower some day so you can see for yourself.
Here's my point.
For the last YEAR, the TA has been running the following GO in Queens:
F 179-Coney Island via 63rd tunnel
R Jamaica Center-95th Street Brooklyn
E No service
Suddenly, on the weekend of 8/25-8/26, the TA started running E, F, and R service again. Basically, this meant that the Queens Corridor had full service on weekends again. At the same time, the TA decided to run ALL THREE trains to/from Manhattan via ONE TUNNEL, the 63rd.
"As I understand it, they're wiring the place up"? That's what you are saying regarding the tower. Well, if that's true, and I have no reason to believe it's not, then why did the TA resume full-service in Queens with the knowledge that a tower was being rewired? Wouldn't this reduce the capabilities of the tower? Of course it would. Yet the TA increased capacity on the Queens Corridor anyway.
As a daily passenger on the Queens Corridor, and someone who experienced lengthy delays the last two weekends, and discussed the issue with T/O's and C/R's who were working there, it's my opinion that if the TA had continued the long running weekend GO which limited service to just the F and R, with no E trains, things would have been alot better the last two weekends, because there would have been much less congestion.
Any thoughts people?
"Any thoughts people?"
Just one - will you give it a flippin' rest already!!!!!! You sound like a god-damn broken record!!!!!
Thank you for explaining the problem. Unfortunately, Traindude would rather look for "mechanical" or "switch" problems, even after you clearly explained the situation.
Are you sure this is a job you want?
Sure. Look at the starting pay! What do I care if I make people late for a living.
If starting pay is your only criteria, you may find yourself quite unhappy with your job.
Additionally, your supervisors may not be very fond of your stated attitudes, should you choose to state them while on the job. There is such a thing as "probationary," even in the TA.
I was just wondering if you had some career options involving things you enjoy doing, and doing well.
I would urge you to pay heed to the advice by Ron. As an hourly employee, you may not be in a position to publicly disagree with Authority policy (especially while on probation.) Rule #10b states, "employees are required to avoid such behavior as would tend to create adverse criticism of the Authority or of the system......."
Perhaps not quite a loyalty oath but you are held accountable for your behavior on and off duty.
Well put,Train Dude!
I love the subways. I don't like the decisions made by management. Many of my friends already work for the TA, and as much as some of them hate it, they know it's still ten times better than corporate America.
One C/R I know was called at his home because a passenger complained about an abrasive C/R on the R train. Can you believe that?
I actually like the people I know "on the job" as they say. My overall opinion of the average TA employee is that they are hard working people who put up with alot of shit from passengers, and management.
As I was telling the T/O on his way to work on the 3 line, the TA does not attract a bad crop like the Police Dept, DMV, and other city jobs.
"My overall opinion of the average TA employee is that they are hard working people who put up with alot of shit from passengers, and management. "
You know, on second thought, if you are hired and if you get a choice, opt for the B division. I'd really love to get to know you.
I'm shaking in my boots.
I don't think it was a threat.
-Hank
the TA does not attract a bad crop like the Police Dept, DMV, and other city jobs.
2 questions, Einstein. Are you now an expert on the demographics of all people applying for TA jobs? Oh and by the way, when did the DMV become a city job. Slow down, your knuckles are starting to bleed!
I love trains. Always have. Always will. I think I'd love being a T/O. But I hate being a passenger.
You all won. I surrender. End of topic.
Just because you love trains doesn't mean you'll like the job. I love computers. They are now my job. I hate it.
-Hank
There are several reasons, when the E was to Whitehall 3 track could not switch to the 60th st cut so it had to run local.
There is also something going on with the old tower, the master tower and the switches at 36 st. You only go express thru the cut in emergencies. QP or QB Mater are idiots most of the time and it only gets worse in the middle of the night.
There is also a wrong lineup problem by having a TSS there at 36 st and at Lex watching every sinlge train things go smoother. Wrong line ups happen alot and get squashed before the rumor mill gets wind.
I also believe they are incrementally testing the cut as I explained in another post.
Oh yea there were some layups in the express tracks down there too . It is a new one on me. Yes I do mean between 74th and 36 and no they are not work trains.
Are you kidding? Are you really going to state that there were layups on the express tracks in Queens? Come on!.
First of all they do that in eastern Queens all the time. Second they do wierd things with G.O.s. Third I saw a full car set on those tracks in the middle of the night on tracks that were not being used in revenue service.
Strange theory ... if I had installed new signals and track circuits and was wiring up a model board, I'd want a layup in sequential track segments over time so I can ring out my wires, make sure they're connected to the correct relays just to make sure the color codes on the track end matched the codes on my end before soldering them up.
Maybe those "layups" were there to close track circuits for testing?
Disclaimer: I am not taunting anyone, presenting "facts" or hypothesizing on how I could run a better subway. Opinions expressed are those of a madman, kids - do NOT try this at home and as always, please - no wagering. :)
That makes sense especially since they are now closing 1 track in that area, the work is probably progressing. Most of the gangs were on 3 track and so were the train(s) I saw. I had just thought they either did it so they could put a train in service at QB or made the cut idiot proof by putting a train where it would force the normal route red (there is often another train between 36 and QP).
If they can't 'see' the area it might also explain why they use the cut all local or occasionally all express.
Hopefully that'll turn out to be the answer. I can only guess but at some point in the wiring/testing, they'd have to do something like that to prove out the work. Maybe someone with the authority knows the answer and it might turn up here. Beats guessing. :)
Excellent theory. I would suggest that test trains are usually required to test new signal/power/track installations. I suppose in Lionelville, the other theory would make more sense.
Lionelville. Never lived in that upscale community. I had to settle for an old woodframe in Plasticville. :)
I didn't ask you a question. If I wanted this information, I'd call the Superintendent who is responsible and ask.
Your post said what needed to be said.
It _would_ be a cool idea, however, if the TA could email service notices to people that would _voluntarily_ put themselves on a mailing list for a particular line. The info is already in the electronic domain, as it is posted on the MTA website.
Just a thought.
The Straphanger's Campaign does that already.
Straphangers does that already.
I would love to be able to sign up to receive announcements of all GO's, including the ones the TA doesn't bother to post.
Whoo boy. Some of the post in this thread are too harsh. I'm sure plenty of times you people have looked at a train or bus schedule and thought, "What the fuck are they doing?!" I'm sure plenty of times when you were late to work due to a late bus with one passenger and a driver proceeding as if they're in a mine field, you've wanted to strangle someone. I'm sure YOU wanted to call a manager and hurl obscenities. I know I have!
When it's cold and rainy and a bus doesn't show up. Buses that run every 45 minutes people! Yet, you're in the rain waiting for the next bus to loop around when their's a friggin bus station right up the street where they could easily dispatch one! But no, they don't!
And you know who makes these decisions, management. I'm sure they have their reasons that we couldn't possibly understand. Usually cost-cutting measures and such. But, just because management makes a decision doesn't mean it's good. Just because management may have worked ten hours to work out a schedule doesn't mean it'll get people to work on time.
And to get upset because someone says "The TA Sickens Me" is repulsive. This is a PUBLIC MESSAGE BOARD people. Do you want me to define that for you? I'm sure we're not ALL knuckle draggers, despite what some people may think. I'm sure you know what a PMB is. Furthermore, this PMB is called SUBTALK, for the discussion of subway related issues. And guess what guys? This may surprise some of you, but um, THE TA RUNS SUBWAYS IN NYC!!!!!! WHAT?! I SAID, THE TA RUNS SUBWAYS IN NYC!!!!! Therefore, making it perfectly all right for a memeber of the PUBLIC to come on a PUBLIC MESSAGE BOARD called SUBTALK and dicuss THE SUBWAY!!!!!!
Perhaps all of you have had rosy experiences upon this wonderful creation, but there are those that (gasp!) may not like what the hell the TA is doing! And you know what? He has a right not to. Just like the Redbird JIHAD has a right not like the R142s and vice-versa. People aren't going to agree on everything. There are things called opinions people. And this guy's opinions was that he didn't like what the TA was doing. I suppose it was an inconvienience for him. And people have the right to argue, BUT, some of these posts were uncalled for.
And of course, people responded with well-meaning but painfully obvious posts like, "Well, they had work to do, yada yada yada!" Duh! I sure hope they did. I hope the TA suits just didn't decide to fuck around with their customers. But of course, when you're inconvienienced, you don't think, "Gosh, the TA is doing some sort of work. Even though I will most likely end up being late or lost, I'll just supress all my angry feelings because this is the TA gosh darnit and they're going my way, or they wre but now there's a G.O. preventing that."
NO! That's not how the world works, when people get mad they bitch, they moan! Luch did it. I do it! We all do it! So yes people, the TA sickens him. For others it can be the cure for what ails you. But for some tight-asses to just up and go off because someone DARE insult the intelligence of the TA is just...............
You can finsih it. I'm tired. I just had to post on that, it seems to be a regularity on this board these days.
I just got back from NYC and I had a great time. I have a few questions about Manhattan's four vehicle tunnels. My first question probably relates to the second one.
Why did my car stereo have reception as clear as a bell in the Queens-Midtown and Brooklyn Battery tunnels but nothing came in at all in the Holland and Lincoln? (I had Q104.3 on all the time)
Does anyone know the depth of each of the four tunnels and the length? How about what year each was built?
I'm under the impresstion that the Lincoln Tunnel has 3 tubes and the rest have 2. If I'm wrong please correct me. When is the Lincoln's third tube used?
All of the information you can give is appreciated because those tunnels were REALLY interesting to me.
You are right the Lincoln has 3 tubes, 1 with two lanes eastbound, one with two lanes westbound, and one with one eastbound and one westbound lane. As for the radio the only time you should not get radio is when the PA is broadcasting construction or the like (as in any station your radio is on you will hear the PA announcement), other than that cell phones and radio should be no problem.
Mike
"Mr Mass Transit"
Sorry, wrong.
While the Lincoln has three tubes, the center tube is not always bi-directional; it's not even common. During rush hours, there are usually 4 lanes of traffic in the predominant direction; in the AM, one lane of the center tube is dedicated to buses.
All the tunnels are equipped with what is called 'leaky cable'; AM radio broadcasts and cellular telephone connections work in the tunnel. The Port Authority and to a smaller extant MTA Bridges & Tunnels broadcast over the entire AM dial with construction and traffic information. FM doesn't work in the tunnels because there's no retransmission. THere's a lot more detail in this that has to do with propagation and sine waves, but I don't have a firm grasp on that to attempt explaining it. It does have to do with the materials used to construct the tunnels, however.
-Hank
I had FM work in the Battery Tunnel on every occassion I've used it and had the radio on. They interrupted that with announcements too.
Unusual. Could be a proximity thing; as I understand it, the equipment needed to rebroadcast FM signals is significantly expensive and not all that reliable. That's why it's not in the Hudsson River tunnels.
-Hank
While the Lincoln has three tubes, the center tube is not always bi-directional; it's not even common. During rush hours, there are usually 4 lanes of traffic in the predominant direction; in the AM, one lane of the center tube is dedicated to buses.
Isn't the center tube bidirectional outside of rush hours (except when one tube is closed due to construction)? That makes up most of the day. How is it not common?
One tube is always closed middays for maintainence.
-Hank
Always? I rarely use the Lincoln (I prefer the GWB and the Holland) but I've driven through the bidirectional center tube during daylight hours.
On a weekday? Any time I've attempted to use the tunnel, either leaving B&H, a Rangers game, or something else in the city (I can't stand the Holland Tunnel backups), there's always been a tube closed, and two open tubes with one-way traffic.
I guess it depends on your timing.
-Hank
I'd be greatful if anyone could give me a schematic of how all those entrances and turn-offs off 9th, 10th, 11th Avenues and the various streets all lead to what tubes.
In my experience, the NY entrances are so confusing I don't know which tube I'm in till I exit in NJ, and then it's not always too safe to stare in the mirror to figure this out.
However, as far as I can tell, the center tube is all NY--bound in AM rush hours (left lane for busses only) and bi-directional off peak hours (unless there's maintenance in one of the others). I don't know about PM rush.
I've been through the center tube both during rush hours when it was one-direction and non rush hours when it was bidirectional. This was a long, long time ago; I haven't used the Lincoln Tunnel since 1988.
BTW, the third tube opened in 1957.
I get lost around there also. This may be of some assistance.
"While the Lincoln has three tubes, the center tube is not always bi-directional; it's not even common. During rush hours, there are usually 4 lanes of traffic in the predominant direction; in the AM, one lane of the center tube is dedicated to buses."
Just FYI, lanes of traffic that can be reversed are techincally referred to as swing lanes. In other words, they aren't intended to be dedicated to one direction or the other.
It's a lot easier to call them swing lanes than: "the lanes that can have traffic go either way depending on the time of day." It also sounds a lot cooler. There may be other technical terms.
MATT-2AV
Well, supposedly, the Holland and Lincoln tunnels we wired for FM radio. It worked for about a week, then you couldn't get radio anymore. And when it worked, it didn't work too well.
The Lincoln tunnel does have three tubes. Northern tube: always 2 lanes westbown. Southern tube: always 2 lanes eastbound. Middle tube: 2 lanes in peak direction during rush hours, during non rush hours it's one eastbound, one westbound lane.
The Battery Tunnel is the longest vehicular tunnel in the United States. There is a plaque stating this in front of the Manhattan ventilation tower across from Battery Park.
You New Yokers love superlatives, don't you?
Does anyone know the depth of each of the four tunnels and the length? How about what year each was built?
Brooklyn Battery Tunnel: Construction started 10/28/1940. Opened to traffic 5/25/1950. Length: 9,117 feet. Original plans called for a bridge.
Queens Midtown Tunnel: Construction started 10/2/1936. Opened to traffic 11/15/1940. Length: 6,272 feet (south tube), 6414 feet (north tube). Max depth 86 feet, mean high water to roadway.
Holland Tunnel: Construction started 2/1/1920. Opened to traffic 11/13/1927. North tube length 8,558 feet. South tube 8.371 feet. Max depth, mean high water to roadway - 93 feet 5 inches.
Lincoln Tunnel: Construction started 5/17/1934. North tube opened to traffic 2/4/1945 at 7,482 feet. Center tube opened to traffic 12/22/1937 at 8,216 feet. South tube opened to traffic 5/25/1957 at 8.006 feet. Max depth, mean high water to roadway is 97 feet.
Further details, construction histories, etc can be found at The Crossings of Metro New York and by reading Robert Caro's "The Power Broker: Robert Moses and the Fall of NY". (I'm about 1/4 through the Caro book now. Very interesting!!)
--Mark
On Labor Day (Monday) I left New York driving through the Holland Tunnel with KISS FM (98.7) pumping strong right through the tunnel. I was suprised because I didn't know it had been wired for FM radio. I did realize that cell phones work fine in the tunnels.
Wayne
My friend who was in NYC last year told me to make sure I walked across the 59th Street Bridge because the views were or the Manhattan skyline were spectacular. I did walk across the bridge but only the north side was opened for peds and bicyclists. My friend swears he walked across the on the south side last year, he even has the pictures to prove it. Anybody know why they made the switch? The norht side didn't impress me but I can see how the south side would be absolutely stunning. Are they going to return it to having the south side used for pedestrians again?
The powers that be have switched the pedestrian traffic between those outer roadways a number of times, mostly due to construction on one or the other. There seems to be a bias in favor of using the northern roadway for pedestrians to restrict the entry of automobiles into Manhattan and to expedite the removal of automobiles from Manhattan.
I was going to Brooklyn on Saturday, and I get on the N at Cortlandt, and we go Via tunnel and local on 4th ave, but then the C/R says "There is no W service this train will make all W stops to Coney Island." Now on the way back I walk to the N since I know there is no City bound W service and when we get on the N, at 36th the C/R says, "This train will be express on 4th ave," when we get to Pacific, he says, "The next stop on this train will be Canal St." (Meaning we will skip DeKalb and go Via the bridge." I just would like to know, what was the reason for only one direction each way on the Sea Beach and West End lines?
Mike
"Mr Mass Transit"
The southbound N was supposed to run via the West End line, according to posted GO.
The northbound N was supposed to run express from 36th to Pacific and then over the bridge, according to the posted GO.
The W was not supposed to be cancelled. I don't know whose idea it was to make such a significant change without first notifying the public.
There was a GO that did indeed cancel W service. Why no one was told about it, I don't know. Hell, even the crew assignment office, didn't know about it. N and R trains bypassed DeKalb northbound because the 4th Ave track there was torn out. Since they had to use the Bypass track, they were forced onto express track. Obvoiusly, you can't run two express services AND have a third terminate and run wrong-rail in the middle of it. Since something had to give, the W lost the battle.
"There was a GO that did indeed cancel W service. Why no one was told about it, I don't know. Hell, even the crew assignment office, didn't know about it. N and R trains bypassed DeKalb northbound because the 4th Ave track there was torn out. Since they had to use the Bypass track, they were forced onto express track. Obvoiusly, you can't run two express services AND have a third terminate and run wrong-rail in the middle of it. Since something had to give, the W lost the battle."
heheheehhe
N Broadway Line
The "W": The Weak, the Weary, the Wayne.....the WOT??????
Oh that "W", Woe is us.
wwwwwayne
"W"hatever "W"ayne "W"ants
You're right, the W would have needed to wrong-rail through that mess to turn. I forgot that there was only a crossover in one direction between the two express tracks. Consider this another strike against whoever writes up the GO posters.
(When N and R trains operate the other way over the bridge, the W will be able to turn as usual.)
Come to think of it, the W could have run, in an awkward fashion: both ways on the northbound local track. It would have had to run express on the West End southbound, but the N would have provided service to the local stops. Probably not a good idea, in any case, unless the northbound local track is signalled in both directions.
The 4th Avenue-to-bridge non-bypass track at DeKalb was in service -- the Q was using it, as always. However, the connection from the 4th Avenue local track to the bridge track appeared to be torn up -- even on Wednesday, when I passed through again on a Q. (The closed section of platform south of DeKalb was well lit.)
DID THE SEA BEACH GO OVER THE BRIDGE/ DID THE SEA BEACH GO OVER THE BRIDGE? Did I hear right?
Yeah, yeah, the Sea Beach went over the Bridge northbound only.
Well glory be praised. How long will that be for. A victory of sorts.
Sorry, that was a temporary service. :(
Speaking on behalf of Fred,
Oooooooooooohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh nooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
Yup, Oooh nooo is the word. Fred is not going to be happy about this... His blood will be boiled to 1000 degreeF as mines already was.
Just as bad as I would like to see the N being sent over to the bridge in 2004. I will not give up my hopes til that day arrives. And when that time had comes, I will be the first passanger ride that train.
You may have a fellow passenger on that train. The guy by the railfan window will be wearing his #4 Sea Beach Fred cap.
"ExpressM"
When was the M ever an express train?
N Broadway Line
Years ago between Myrtle Ave and Essewx Street, back in BMT Days
And also from 1989-94 along 4th Avenue, including the brief period in 1990 and 91 when the N was using the Manhattan Bridge.
It was express in the mid-60s (until Chrystie St. connection), running from Coney Island to Chambers St. via Nassau, express on Brighton line north of Kings Highway.
Fred: Not only did the 'N' run into Manhattan over the Bridge, it ran express all the way up 4th Avenue AND skipped DeKalb. So did the 'R'. Unfortunately, both services reverted to Broadway local service after Canal Street, thus depriving riders of the original classic Sea Beach service.
It was a very confusing weekend for Brooklyn riders. You had no inbound West End service and no outbound Sea Beach service, with the 'N' picking up the slack for both lines. As mentioned above, there was no inbound service at 4th Avenue local stations. This made for chaos at Pacific Street outbound, 36th Street and especially the 62nd/New Utrecht complex. Luckily, all inbound West End and 4th Avenue local platforms seemed to be roped off.
Most outbound 'N' or 'R' conductors failed to make any announcements at Pacific Street about a lack of 'W' service. Some even announced connection to the 'W', hopefully out of reflex and not ignorance. How do I know? We spent almost an hour there on Sunday afternoon waiting for a Slant so the boy could 'drive' the West End line- he isn't of height to reach the front window of an R-42 yet! There WERE a couple of advisory signs on the pillars, but that didn't stop mobs of people from waiting impatiently for the nonexistent 'W'. Some were there the whole hour. I tried telling a few, but they didn't want to hear it.
It was amusing seeing the reactions of people on the rerouted 'N' when we hit daylight after 36th Street, as well as on the rerouted 'R' when we came onto the Bridge. The Slant was a staple on the West End from 1981 through 1997 so THAT didn't feel too strange, but it was very bizarre riding an R-46 over the Bridge, especially with LED signs. Actually, the 46 DID have a presence there when they ran on the 'N' 1976-87.
Combine all this with the '1' running to Brooklyn in place of the '3' and ALL Queens Boulevard service running through 63rd Street and it's a disaster for non-buffs. (I'd also like to add that there were NO signs or announcements at Lexington/60 of a lack of 'R' service- but I won't.)
A #1 in Brooklyn? Bob would be tickled green by that. Hell, that is good news to me. I remember the #1 as a Brooklyn line when I was in my younger mode.
In 1953 they started running to Astoria, I have a photo of it somewhere, dated Sept 1953
Northbound only, and just for two weekends (and overnights), but southbound there was no Sea Beach service at all -- the N ran on the West End.
Come to think of it, this past week, middays, the southbound W ran over the bridge and then down the Sea Beach. This is a common W reroute; usually it runs express on the Sea Beach, but the R-143 test train has been in the way on the express track lately, so it's been running local a lot.
Do you see the red cars in the yard? What kind of cars are those and when did they run? The photo was taken from the Fern Rock BSL Line Platform. If you know, please e-mail me.
Thanks, in advance.
Is it possible these represent rolling stock running on the BSL a long time ago?
Beleieve it or not I'm here for a brief visit. Indeed your post tells what they are. To my knowledge they never ran anywhere but on the Filthy Delphia Broad Street Subway unless they ran over the bridge to Camden once in a while?
ED! Hey! Glad to see you got your mitts on a machine, however briefly! We MISSED ya ... sure hope you can purloin one again!
I can't see the photo very clearly, but the City of Philadelphia retains three first-generation cars:
B-I (North Broad) Car 1 (restored)
B-II (South Broad) 166
B-III (Bridge Car) 1025
These were used on charters and special occasions in the 1980s and early 1990s. I believe they are no longer operative.
PATCO also has two Bridge Car bodies which were repainted for the Ben Franklin Bridge 70th Anniversary--1008 and 1015 I believe. These are likely stowed at Lindenwold.
Regards,
George Chiassson Jr.
(Widecab5@aol.com)
I was given strength by God to visit Metuchen station during the first half of the AM rush at Metuchen, my home station.
I woke up, showered, dressed, and was biking to head for the 6:05AM train, but was too late, and I heard those clacketing rails down a street I was biking upon.
The sun wasn't fully up yet, no, not even at 6AM, so it looked like the time right before dusk.
I arrive at Metuchen to find myself getting goosebumps and standing to observe trains.
The schedules for the trains I was going to observe were the 6:05AM, 6:20AM, 6:40AM, 6:48AM, and 7:00a, with a bonus of the 7:11a train.
I noted three (3) southbound trains during these times.
Guess what? Instead of the late, and undependable on-time service for NJT trains, the 6:20AM, 6:40a, and the 6:48a train all came 1 minute early!!! I was impressed. Many train sightings include:
1) Arrow III MA car-types (normal during service) Car #1331 had its front NJT logo a little higher than usual, and the original positioning of it was cleared away but you can still see the outlines.
2) COMET IV car #5010!!!! Previously owned by MTA!!!!! It was attached at the end of the 6:20a train, leading with ALP-44 locomotive #4428. The front of the car displayed slanted orange line paints, with "5010" around the middle height of the train.
A THIN black line, with the small NJT symbols slanted at their respective slides and color orders AND the MTA Metro-North Commuter Railroad burned off the side, the outlines were still visible just like Comet IV car #5009.
3) The Comet III car #5510 on the same train, its center doors wouldn't close all the way, but it kept going anyway.
4) The 6:23a train to Trenton was NEVER FOUND. Anyone who is an NJT expert on this can probably tell me if the train was CANCELED or something. But the 6:35a train arrived ON TIME.
1--> What happened to the 6:23a train that was supposed to arrive s/b at Metuchen?
5) The Usual "morning express" with AMTRAK's Acela Express clicking and warming the rails for the day was found.
Everything was found in which a railfan would expect it to be found.
Then the second half of the AM rush posed some problems.
1) The 7:00a train arrived Metuchen as a speeding bullet (because it was late) into Metuchen at 7:05a.
2) Automated announcement renders message "Attention Metuchen passengers: The 7:11a train to New York is operating 5 to 10 minutes late, due to mechanical problems. We apologize for the inconvenience."
Now I saw some heads shaking and silent mumbling from the disgruntled passengers waiting to board their train.
2---> Which mechanical problem can a NJT train be stuck with?
3) 7:14a train to Trenton is running ON TIME and observed.
4) 7:11a train finally arrives at 7:16a, THIS was when the AE train was spotted.
5) Train leaves, session ends.
All in all, it was a good railfanning day. I hope someone can answer my questions.
: )
Railfan Pete.
I visited Metuchen station through a chilly, before-dawn experience, the first half of the AM rush at Metuchen, my home station.
I woke up, showered, dressed, and was biking to head for the 6:05AM train, but was too late, and I heard those clacketing rails down a street I was biking upon.
The sun wasn't fully up yet, no, not even at 6AM, so it looked like the time right before dusk.
I arrive at Metuchen to find myself getting goosebumps and standing to observe trains.
The schedules for the trains I was going to observe were the 6:05AM, 6:20AM, 6:40AM, 6:48AM, and 7:00a, with a bonus of the 7:11a train.
I noted three (3) southbound trains during these times.
Guess what? Instead of the late, and undependable on-time service for NJT trains, the 6:20AM, 6:40a, and the 6:48a train all came 1 minute early!!! I was impressed. Many train sightings include:
1) Arrow III MA car-types (normal during service) Car #1331 had its front NJT logo a little higher than usual, and the original positioning of it was cleared away but you can still see the outlines.
2) COMET IV car #5010!!!! Previously owned by MTA!!!!! It was attached at the end of the 6:20a train, leading with ALP-44 locomotive #4428. The front of the car displayed slanted orange line paints, with "5010" around the middle height of the train.
A THIN black line, with the small NJT symbols slanted at their respective slides and color orders AND the MTA Metro-North Commuter Railroad burned off the side, and the outlines were still visible just like Comet IV car #5009.
3) The Comet III car #5510 on the same train, its center doors wouldn't close all the way, but it kept going anyway.
4) The 6:23a train to Trenton was NEVER FOUND. Anyone who is an NJT expert on this can probably tell me if the train was CANCELED or something. But the 6:35a train arrived ON TIME.
1--> What happened to the 6:23a train that was supposed to arrive s/b at Metuchen?
5) The Usual "morning express" with AMTRAK's Acela Express clicking and warming the rails for the day was found.
Everything was found in which a railfan would expect it to be found.
Then the second half of the AM rush posed some problems.
1) The 7:00a train arrived Metuchen as a speeding bullet (because it was late) into Metuchen at 7:05a.
2) Automated announcement renders message "Attention Metuchen passengers: The 7:11a train to New York is operating 5 to 10 minutes late, due to mechanical problems. We apologize for the inconvenience."
Now I saw some heads shaking and silent mumbling from the disgruntled passengers waiting to board their train.
2---> Which mechanical problem can a NJT train be stuck with?
3) 7:14a train to Trenton is running ON TIME and observed.
4) 7:11a train finally arrives at 7:16a, THIS was when the AE train was spotted.
5) Train leaves, session ends.
All in all, it was a good railfanning day. I hope someone can answer my questions.
: )
Railfan Pete.
Car 1331 also has an old number plate, the same font and style as those from SEPTA Silverliners.
Not just #1331, various others. To me, I like the normal font better, because the old-types look "scrunched" and I feel uneasy about them.
Railfan Pete.
I got a bunch of them.
1. What was the LEAD Car # of the 7:14 AM Trenton train?
2. How often do a Comet IV runs on the Trenton Line?
3. Was Car #5510 was going to Trenton?
Can anyone tell me anything about the Fifth Avenue Water Tunnel.
Was it ever finished?
Where does it come from?
What route does it follow?
Where does it go?
How deep is it?
Thanks, Elias
Just taking a wild guess that it fed the old resevoir that used to be located where the NY Public Library now sits.
Oh... I *think* I am revering to a much newer construction, and I do not recall if it was ever finished or put into service. I have read about it's construction, and had seen pictures of two large earth moving trucks setting side by side inside of the tunnel.
But that is the extent of my knowledge on the tunnel. And so my question was what do we know of it, and how does it affect construction on (or under) Fifth Avenue.
Thanks, Elias
Oh... I *think* I am revering to a much newer construction, and I do not recall if it was ever finished or put into service. I have read about it's construction, and had seen pictures of two large earth moving trucks setting side by side inside of the tunnel.
You may be thinking of the third water tunnel. When complete sometime around 2020, it will provide a third connection between the Catskill Reservoir system and the city's water distribution system. It will provide additional capacity and also will allow the two existing, smaller tunnels to be closed temporarily, one at a time, for maintenance, something that's never been possible since they were built many decades ago. I also believe that the third tunnel will be by far the largest tunnel of any sort in the world. In fact, it may already be, even though it's not complete.
Yes, this is the tunnel I was thinking of.
Do you know where I can find more information on it, its route and its depth?
Thanks
Elias
Yes, this is the tunnel I was thinking of.
Do you know where I can find more information on it, its route and its depth?
Nothing I know of in particular, although a web search should pull up some useful sites.
Maybe http://www.nyc.gov/dep
I'm so glad someone finally asked this question. I am a Civil Engineer, and even though I work for a private consulting firm, all of our company's work is for the DEP.
There is actually a multitude of macrotunnels (dia. > 8 ft.) underneath the Streets of New York in all five boroughs. Yes, there is even a tunnel from Manhattan to Staten Island, called the Richmond tunnel! Some of these tunnels carry water. Others, such as the pair of tunnel out to Wards Island, carry wastewater and CSO. Some are in service, and some have been removed from service. They usually form a network. One thing they have in common is that they usually run at elevation (-)300 to (-)500 within the confines of the City limits. When we were going to take the Manhattan pump station tunnel out of service (dia. = 11 ft., from 14th Street and Avenue D to Greenpoint Brooklyn), we used to joke that we would try and sell it to the DOT. Too bad it is 380 feet below ground! To the untrained eye, there is little or no visual surface indication of their presence.
I hope this provides you with some useful information on New York City's other amazing tunnel system. Let me know if you have any questions,
MATT-2AV
Very interesting.
A few questions, if you don't mind:
What is CSO?
Can you describe the Richmond tunnel? When was it built? Cost? Purpose?
Does CSO refer to City Sewer Overflow, or Outflow?
Very nice post by Matt. NYC truly is two cities - one above ground and one below. Hard to tell sometimes which is more extensive.
Can you describe the Richmond tunnel? When was it built? Cost? Purpose?
It begins around Red Hook where City Water Tunnels 1 and 2 come together (and Tunnel 3 when phase 3 of it is completed) and runs to Silver Lake Park in Staten Island. I believe it was built in the 1930s or so to bring water to Staten Island. Before that local streams and wells would have to have been used for water on the island.
I'm pretty sure that it was built in the 1950s or 1960s, but I don't have the source here. This weekend I might look for it, but either way, I'm fairly certainly it was built after WWII.
Seth
Mr. KMA,
Thank you. To answer your questions, CSO is Combined Sewer Overflow. Ewww.... I bet you didn't think it stood for that?
In New York City, like most old cities, we have what are called combined sewers. In other words, the storm sewers and sanitary sewers are combined. This practice of building a combined sewer system has long since been banned in the United States. However, it is completely impractical to rebuild the New York City sewer system, so CSO structures have been built. Basically, CSOs take excess flow during storm events (it's raining hard, but people are still flushing at the same rate, so you have mostly water anyways), and divert it away from the downstream sewers to prevent overflow and unsanitary conditions.
As for the Richmond Tunnel, the only thing I am completely certain about is that it is used for water service. It is how Staten Island gets its drinking water from the City. It is also a deep bore tunnel, probably between 300 to 500 feet below grade. I am going to speculate that it was constructed during the DPW and big infrastructure era, from the 1920's to WWII. I had heard that it was ~8 feet in diameter, but I have been unable to find a source confirming that.
MATT-2AV
Matt- please e-mail me off-site. I have an idea for you!
Interesting point about combined sewers: Baltimore was the last city in the northeast to get sewers (many areas North, Northeast, South and Southeast did not get sewers until mid 1920's and in North and Northeast parts were WPA projects), so we have separate storm drains and sanitary sewers. The sewerage is processed at the Back River Sewerage Treatment plant, which was famed for the odors that tended to collect in the area (unpleasant for those passing through, ignored by the locals) until upgraded in the 1980's.
The storm drains empty to the Chesapeake Bay, the Harbor and the West Branch of the Patapsco River (the latter two do eventually empty to the Bay), so many storm drains are stenciled "Cheasapeake Bay Drainage" to discourage dumping of oil and toxic liquids.
Has anyone checked out the cd rom game Max Paine? There is a whole level that is located in the subway. It includes moving trains, token booths, control rooms, and the closed City Hall location.
1. I don't think there's the closed Coty Hall station.
2. WTF is Rosco street?
3. Stations are innacurate.
4. Transfers are innacurate.
5. There are only R32s.
6. R32s do not have multi-colored seats.
7. It's spelled Payne
Also, notice that the signs on the end of the trains says A. But the station is either 2,3 or 4 - all IRT lines. At least they have the line colors right on the columns. (red for 2,3 and green for 4) Plus the inside of the R32 has R62 seating. One more thing i never understood about the game.. You take the train to that station (Roscoe Street), but every train after that blows through the station?
I spent the weekend in Poconos and while we drove there, I noticed that several old stations are being renovated (Gouldsboro, East Stroudsburg ?? (next to rte. 80 near the bridge) Does anyone know, if it means that they are serious about the train to Poconos?
Arti
Consult this regularly: http://www.pennjerseyrail.org/
They are as serious as Janet Reno is about her run for Governor. Latest projected start-up date is 2005, but I'm thinking it'll be more like 2006. Also, some of those stations, such as Gouldsboro, are being restored by volunteer RR historical societies, and not by any government transit group.
That's the old Delaware Water Gap station that you overlook from I-80. I hope to God the Poconos does not get a commuter rail. There is already too much city element finding it's way to the Poconos via Martz Trailways.
It seems like everytime I watch the Ch.13 news on Blue Ridge Cable, there be some guy from Brooklyn or the Bronx who is wanted for some crime in the Poconos or Allentown. A train would only make things worse.
NIMBY ALERT!!!!!
And while you're at it, see if you can get the TA to close the Queens Blvd subway. There are too many of "THEM" riding it into Manhattan and spoiling the place.
What do I care? I don't live in Manhattan!
Obviously, you live in the Poconos.
No. I live in Queens. I do visit the Poconos frequently.
Don't you know me? I'm the poor Queens guy who suffers through needless weekend GO's?
That explains why you complain about things in both places.
Could you recommend a nice cheese to go with all of that whine.
avid
Unoriginal Varsity Blues ripoff:
“Do you want cheese with that wine?”
John
J
Hey LuchAAA,did you remember, on your way back from filing an employment application for MTA, to send your check to a hate group?
They're always looking for members who want to make sure that "elements" always stay "where they belong" so that "good" people stay pure and unspoiled.
Maybe there's a charter member special. And don't forget to advertise on the subway...
What does a hate group have to do with this? I'm just saying, there are too many city people coming up to PA. And with it, the Poconos has seen a significant increase in crime over the last ten years.
We all know what "city element" is code for.
could that be the N----- word?
Two incidents on the Martz line really soured my opinion on the Poconos. Both involved transplanted New Yorkers.
One involved a male white UPS worker. He was the most hated passenger on the bus line. Everyone knew him, or of him. One day, he crossed paths with the wrong person. When the bus arrived at Park and Ride, this guy got the living daylights beat out of him. Something that started on the bus spilled over to the bus terminal.
BOTH MEN INVOLVED WERE WHITE.
Another incident took place at the same stop. Park and Ride. It happend at about 4:45 am, while waiting for a Manhattan bound bus. Two people got into a dispute over a space on line. So one guy pulled out a knife and stabbed the other in the neck.
THE MAN WITH THE KNIFE WAS WHITE.
"City element" means transplanted New Yorkers.
IT was a question Luch,not a statement. sorry if I bent you out of shape.
I was born and raised in the Bronx and am of a Scottish/Irish background, left the city in 1974, live way upstate since. Amazingly the term "city element" is not a code word for "persons of color" or "people of hispanic origin" ... both ethnic groups are merrily living in areas outside the city.
"City element" generally describes ordinary white folk from the city who migrate into areas outside the city but bring along with them an attitude of beligerent, selfish behavior. Sorta like "foamers" on steroids. The behavior patterns include things ranging from LOUD motor-mouthing to pushiness to the tendency to point at other people and laugh, threaten people who pose no danger and in its most degenerative form, sneaking out into a pasture and trying to milk a bull.
Folks from the city do tend to stand out once you get 50 miles or more away. You can hear them for miles and the attitude tends to stand out as loudly as well. It's quiet out here and folks of all backgrounds tend to coexist with a generally mellow level of living. But I'd be willing to bet this is what the original poster meant.
You just described many of the Martz Bus riders, most of whom are transplanted New Yorkers.
Heh. Well, we SHOOT the beligerent up here ... us hicks don't screw around. Be mellow, give us your money fot the two weeks in summer we tolerate you (extra week of slack for bikers) and go home. Ya wanna LIVE here? Ya gotta smile then, mind your manners and show up for the Volunteer fire or ambulance squad.
It takes a while to get the city outta ya - best proposed way of doing it upstate is to spend 5/6 years in Ulster or Dutchess county to wean yourself from the trains and NYC TV stations, THEN move further out. Moo. :)
Speaking of TV, though it means nothing to you sourpuss New Yorkers, I just enjoyed the most delightful show on MetroTV - Subway Q&A. Though it has very little to do with the subway other than being filmed there, it was the most entertaining half-hour I've had since I got here.
Moo. (trying not to say "Heh") where would "here" be where "MetroTV" is available? Up here, "MetroTV" is a segment on all of the local stations of about 30 seconds of literally telephoned in traffic reports to cover our humongous 10 minute traffic jam at the thruway exits when the state lets Smallbany go home in the afternoon.
yeah,that exit24 can be a bitch,right?
Heh. It's a killer ... all the way back to exit 3 on I-90 every now and then. But nothing takes the cake like the Oliver Northway. :)
WOLF ROAD OFF RAMP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Yeah, OK, compare that to the LIE, BQE or (yak!) The FDR. Kwitcherwhining. Heh. I'm down in Voorheesville just outside the Selkirk yards ...
NYC TV stations are actually regional. Almost every cable system between NYC and Albany carries them.
NYC is NOT available on the cable systems up in the Albany area and direct reception isn't possible. Not at the 160 mile marker. Now I have to admit, I can cheat and see most of NYC's TV stations, but that's because I have a bird bath on the roof and special waivers for "local TV" via satellite. We USED to have WPIX and before that WWOR on AOL/TimeWeenieCable, but the cable company now owns WB45 in Schenectady, so 11 got the heave-ho also.
On the birdie though, I get 2,4,5,7 and "we are 13" ... 9 and 11 are no shows but no loss. We also receive 41 and 47 but again, only because I have a dish and special waivers from the local broadcasters. Morbid curiosity often makes me tune in also every now and then because after all, the pix from the birdie are digital ...
The dividing line for coverage though on cable of city stations is at New Paltz/Poughkeepsie ... north of there, it's the Albany stations:
WRGB CBS 6
WTEN ABC 10/19
WNYT NBC 13
WXXA FOX 23
WMHT PBS 17
WEWB WB 45
WVBG UPN 25
WYPX PAX 55
WRNN IND 62
WEDG UPN 4
So NYC's influence is completely lost up here, typical of our local major network newscasts, "Our top story tonight, two cows found dead in Guilderland." It's a completely different world out here. Much happier. More fundamentally blue ... and green ... and electric pink. Definitely not the kind of place where you can work your way up to a bust blood vessel. Aside from the "city element" causing multi-car pileups on the major roads after forcing their land yacht through three lanes of traffic in ten feet. :)
Just curious. What radio stations do you listen to?
There's a jazz station at 104.9 - since SFX/Clearchannel and some other national chain have divided up the 22 FM's and 11 AM's here between the two of them, no point in owning a radio other than for the jazz station. Even the COLLEGE stations bite ... so it's that, seedys or the muzaks off the birdbath (Musicchoice) ...
CD and MP3 players are widely used up here.
Agreed. I listen mostly to CD101.9 here in NY. I thought you might listen to the Edge, or some other local station.
Nah, "Edge" is one of 11 ClearChannel FM's, as boring as a bowling ball with cheezy talent and the same ten songs. I've already filled my coupon book lifetime dose of Pink Floyd's "the Wall," thank ya. :)
we still get channel 11 news at 10pm on the WPIX station[for NYC NEWS]
Are you on AOL/TimeWeenie (formerly Capital Cable) ? I had heard a couple of years ago that once they bought WB45, 11 was dead meat. I got so fed up with cable being down more often than up and having customer service that put the army to shame, snipped the wire off the pole, called them and told them to come get it and went with a bird bath. Haven't regretted going with DirecTV for a nanosecond.
Now if we could just get just ONE of those trains we've been paying for to make stops here, we'd be phat city.
COW COUNTRY MOOO.....
Yeah, after a while an udder begins to feel like an R9 handle.
A farmer is sitting in the neighborhood bar getting soused. A man
comes in and asks the farmer, "Hey, why are you sitting here on
this beautiful day getting drunk?"
Farmer: Some things you just can't explain.
Man: So what happened that's so horrible?
Farmer: Well, today I was sitting by my cow milking her. Just as I
got the bucket bout full, she took her left leg and kicked over
the bucket.
Man: Ok, but that's not so bad.
Farmer: Some things you just can't explain.
Man: So what happened then?
Farmer: I took her left leg and tied it to the post on the left.
Man: And then?
Farmer: Well, I sat back down and continued to milk her. Just as I
got the bucket about full, she took her right leg and kicked over
the bucket.
Man: Again? Farmer: Some things you just can't explain.
Man: So, what did you do then?
Farmer: I took her right leg this time and tied it to the post on
the right.
Man: And then?
Farmer: Well, I sat back down and began milking her again. Just as
I got the bucket about full, the stupid cow knocked over the
bucket with her tail.
Man: Hmmm...
Farmer: Some things you just can't explain.
Man: So, what did you do?
Farmer: Well, I didn't have any more rope, so I took off my belt
and tied her tail to the rafter. In that moment, my pants fell
down and my wife walked in..... Some things you just can't
explain.
HA! You know ,im in the Capitol District myself.
hey i just had to cast out my line and see what i could catch,right? I'M a former city dweller myself, and with saying that,im definetly not the loud type. I prefer the country life,the peace and quiet. CAN'T stand the ''TUDES'' OR dirty looks[''HEY,DO YOU KNOW ME OR SOMTHIN''? DIN WHY YOU LOKKIN OVA HEAH?'']
You talking to me? Are YOU talking to ME? Heh. Yeah, I've got buddies from the city that live up here too and amusingly, some of them haven't changed since the Bronx. It's VERY amusing to watch how others react to this one guy only to find out that we used to live down the block from one another once.
The lifestyle is amazingly different between out here and in there and what's REALLY amusing is a lot of city folks move out to the burbs and never change a bit. You gotta get good and far away before you get snapped up in the different way of living ...
Unfortunately, that's also a stereotype. For every city boy who is belligerent, there's a match in the form of a country "hillbilly" whose behavior is no better - different, but equally obnoxious, and just as devoid of social skills.
The fact is, some people don't have good social skills. It makes no difference whether they begin in the city or in the country. Well-educated city dwellers, esp. in places like NY or Philly, may have an advantage in that they are already exposed to a lot of different kinds of people. Take someone who has never been around anyone different than himself, put him in a big city, and he's got a potential problem (but not always a disaster; some adapt better than others).
From the number of posts I see on this thread,, it's obvious this ignorant nonsense is going to be batted back and forth ad nauseum. So this will be my last post on it. The "city element" and "country element" are both stereotypes, and judging Martz line riders by incidents reported in the newspaper only shows the incredible ignorance and prejudice of the poster.
Do you guys think you could knock it off and come back to some semblence of reality?
Yeah, you're right ... but largely country folks are a bit quieter (not as much noise to try to be heard over) and the good news is we keep most of the "doublewide" population over in "scenic Rensselaer county" so most of the area is safe. Heh. Sorry, couldn't help myself.
No problem. Thanks for letting me vent...
If I actually have to explain that to you, well, maybe we should just let this thread drop and move on...
Agreed.
But remember, the next time you hear or see an ad for LTS builders trying to sell a Poconos home to New Yorkers, I'll be cursing up a storm.
But remember, the next time you hear or see an ad for LTS builders trying to sell a Poconos home to New Yorkers, I'll be cursing up a storm.
Do you own a house in the Poconos? If so, you should be very happy that New Yorkers are buying in the area. Without that demand, prices (and therefore your equity) would be a lot lower.
You know, the next time I come up from South Jersey to vist the Water Gap (and the DL&W main) I am going to make a point of littering just to SPITE you.
Umm..yeah, that's real mature. Spite one person out of thousands who don't think the same way.
Peace,
ANDEE
That's the old Delaware Water Gap station that you overlook from I-80. I hope to God the Poconos does not get a commuter rail. There is already too much city element finding it's way to the Poconos via Martz Trailways.
It seems like everytime I watch the Ch.13 news on Blue Ridge Cable, there be some guy from Brooklyn or the Bronx who is wanted for some crime in the Poconos or Allentown. A train would only make things worse.
Yes, a rail line to NYC might bring some "bad elements" into the Poconos, though most of the fears are grossly overblown, but it will also bring more and more taxpaying, home-owning commuters who will make the area more prosperous. If it weren't for the Poconos' proximity to NYC, the area surely would be a lot less prosperous than it already is - in fact, it might look a lot like Sullivan County (which most definitely isn't a hotbed of wealth). Indeed, if the Poconos gets more commuters via the rail line, it will start developing its own independent economic base, as happended years ago in most of the closer-in 'burbs. A win-win proposition.
I disagree...
A lot of the reasons to move to that area would be lost. The taxes would get higher because of the increase in school children, the need for larger police forces, fire departments, and other municipal services. The car insurance would also go up, and the area would just be more crowded. A little influx of people, sure; but packing them in just turns it into a suburb. As far as the rail line goes, I don't think it will be that much of a bargain. As it stands now, it will not run directly into Manhattan because of the existing rail traffic through the Hudson River tunnel. It will run into Hoboken, and it will make a number of stops in Jersey along the way. You'd still be better off riding the Martz bus, both in time and expense.
I disagree...
A lot of the reasons to move to that area would be lost. The taxes would get higher because of the increase in school children, the need for larger police forces, fire departments, and other municipal services. The car insurance would also go up, and the area would just be more crowded. A little influx of people, sure; but packing them in just turns it into a suburb. As far as the rail line goes, I don't think it will be that much of a bargain. As it stands now, it will not run directly into Manhattan because of the existing rail traffic through the Hudson River tunnel. It will run into Hoboken, and it will make a number of stops in Jersey along the way. You'd still be better off riding the Martz bus, both in time and expense.
Rapid population growth in the Poconos resulting from a commuter rail line will not necessarily translate into higher taxes. In fact, it might well have the opposite effect. Less-developed areas have lower demands for municipal and county services, that much is true, but they also tend to have lower tax bases. If the Poconos become more heavily developed, with commercial and industrial growth following the population, residential properties will have to shoulder a lower proportion of the tax burden than is now the case. Even with higher expenditures, the average homeowner might see lower taxes, and will of course benefit from increasing property values.
There is, of course, a separate issue - economics aside, is it desirable to turn a scenic, recreation-oriented area into yet another suburb? That's the sort of question that area residents will have to address, and it's quite likely that there will be bitter divisions of opinion. While my knowledge of the area is somewhat limited, it's my impression that the Poconos have ample undeveloped land, enough to accommodate a considerable amount of population growth and commercial development while maintaining an essentially rural character. The rail line might be the Poconos' opportunity to ensure that it won't be left with a Sullivan County-style economy, while at the same time not having to worry about Nassau County-style suburban sprawl.
In all this, of course, I'm assuming that the rail line will make commuting from the Poconos even more attractive than currently is the case with Martz Bus and the Port Jervis line. It does sound as if the line won't be an ideal commuting solution, but I caution against rushing to judgment.
Very well put, Peter.
The rail line may lead to a lawsuit like the one filed by Lakeland due to Midtown Direct being filed by MARTZ against NJT/Amtrak.
Wow, what a concept. Don't like mass transit? Sue 'em and extort some ransom.
Are Martz lines subsidized by the state of New Jersey? Maybe NJ could arrange for the subsidy to disappear...
Martz is a commuter bus line based out of Wilkes-Barre PA.
I know that. The question is, do they provide service in NJ that the state subsidizes?
Actually, they might. Martz services Newark, Panther Valley, and Hackettstown.
MARTZ is part of Trailways. TL's MARTZ pics are under Trailways.
hopefully this means steam excursions over the cut-off (tho i doubt we're that lucky)....it'd be something to see CP 2317 at a speed above 40....
even more off subject, but does anyone know if there are plans for RDG 2102, PRR 1361, or C+O 614?
Last nite I was waiting for a friend at Croton Harmon. A southbound Amtrak came through. The last car was an old style New York Central coach, obviously renovated. It had a kitchen, a real dinning room complete with set table and lounge. The end had the open deck with people sitting on it. It was very cool! Any ideas what or why this was?
There is a company that runs private charters of the equipment you described. They usually ride on the end of Amtrak consists. This is more than likely what you saw.
Peace,
ANDEE
Believe it or not people do own their own RR cars and move them on the end of Amtrak trains (as well as companies as Andee stated).
It was a PV (Private Varnish). Varnish meaning the coats of varnish applied to the Pullman Palace cars from the early 1900's. Some people have money to own and operate private rail cars.
Virginia Division - BMT
There's a slide show showing various photos from opening day, 1979. I don't know what made them do this today, since June 30th is the opening day, but it's still cool.
i regret to inform you guys that the museum has closed for renovations. Anyways when it reopens, being that i am a volunteer for them, they will call me and i will let all of you know when it reopens
so
What about the store?
Isn't the store a separate entity?
the Grand Central store will remain open
I'm talking about the store under Schermerhorn Street.
It certainly took them long enough to get the project started. Now let's see how long it takes for them to get it finished.
what is the approximate length of the project? Will it be months or years?
The museum is closed for renovations? Now do we guess which museum, which city or do we just assume?
I think he whas talking about the transit museum at Court street in Brooklyn.
What are they doing?
Their web page has information:
http://www.mta.nyc.ny.us/museum/general.htm
How was the party ?
yes they had a little party, heypaul was going to bring his barbacue, i was going to bring some dogs, plus dougie and lou from brookly were going to bring themselves.
Mr t__:^)
Thanks. At least I won't waste a trip next month.
Some of us are fighting a rear-guard effort to change the LITP2000 plan on Long Island, so I'm going to be having some specific questions about currently operating systems to be used in support of testimony before legislators and/or be used on a website and such.
My first question is: what is SF Muni currently doing in respect of operating the various light rail lines into the Muni subway?
How many lines operate coupled together in the subway?
Which lines?
When running MU in the subway, how long are the trains?
When running MU in the subway, is there an operator in each unit?
Is coupling/uncoupling of different lines for subway running done at all times, or only certain hours?
How long does it typically take to uncouple units before leaving the subway/couple units when entering the subway?
How many personnel are needed other than the operators to accomplish the makeup/breakup?
Can you describe the procedure?
Does anyone have photos that could be used to illustrate?
I know that's a lot of questions, but any info is helpful. We bat about a lot of ideas on SubTalk. This is one opportunity where we might actually be able to make a difference.
Anyone with extra info or interest in this can contact me by posting here or by e-mail.
Thanks, guys!
1-The K-L-M Lines couple together at West Portal 2/ 2-4 Cars depends on what is at West Portal at the time 3-The operator stays on each car, the 1st car operator controls the train and doors. 4-If 2 or more lines meet then they couple and takes less then 1 minute to couple and uncouple and justb the operators, no one has to leave the train there is a guy outside who checks everything in a walk around
Are the connections fixed? I mean do they wait to assemble particular runs into a train, or do they just hook up whatever is coming in?
Usually hook up on what is coming in, maybe just a minute wait, otherwise they just go, sometimes a 2 or 3 car train, sometimes just a single car, whatever gets to West Portal at whatever time
>>> How many lines operate coupled together in the subway? Which lines? <<<
To fully understand the coupling on the Muni, it is necessary to understand the physical situation. The three lines involved, the L, K, and M run in a single tunnel from Embarcadero to the West Portal. At the West Portal they leave the tunnel to run on streets. The L immediately diverges on one street, and the K and M diverge very shortly thereafter. There are two other lines that run in the tunnel under Market Street, the J and N, but they do not go all the way to the West Portal but leave the tunnel at different intermediate points, and the N goes farther than Embarcadero in the other direction.
The coupling appears to happen only at rush hour. I say this because when I rode on a Sunday, I was on an M which entered the West Portal immediately after an L, with no coupling taking place. When there are a large number of trains running during rush hour, coupling the L,K, and M at the West Portal would effectively reduce the number of lines which have to merge under Market Street from five to three, allowing greater throughput under Market Street since the coupled cars are running with zero headway.
I do not know if the three lines run coupled in the outbound direction from Embarcadero. If they do, it could cause some passenger confusion since the same train pulling into a station under Market Street would have portions with different destinations. If I were running the Muni, I would uncouple the trains at Embarcadero and have them run separately outbound. Since the J and N diverge rather than merge on the outbound trip, there would be less chance of a traffic jam.
Tom
Since the arrival of the Breda cars and the Automatic Train Control system, MUNI no longer couples trains at West Portal (K, L & M) or Duboce and Church (J & N lines). The pre-1997 pattern was to couple what ever arrived after the first train at each junction with the next two-car set behind it. But the L and N run at a higher frequency than the other lines and they would never put together a four-car train from the same line. So often times, an L or an N would sit for several minutes until another different two-car set would arrive. Now with a mix of incompatible Boenings (fewer and fewer all the time) and Bredas there is no point coupling different lines together.
The J usually ran as a one-car line and the J/Ns were usually three-car runs.
The M often would be a one-car run as well.
Before the J extension to Balboa Park opened, three-car J/N sets would run inbound in revenue service on the K or M, then turn at the Embarcadero and then get uncoupled at Duboce and Church.
Also the Forest Hill platform, barely accomodates four-car trains, a four-car Breda set with opening end doors, might be too long for the platform there.
George Devine
San Francisco
So different lines are never coupled any more?
The V train is a load of bull shit.The only reason the V is running is because the F has to through the 63 Street tunnel.This is the first time in my 25 years on this earth that the F is diverted on a full time basis.And,when the V isn't running,wheres the F going to go?
A.Through the 63 street tunnel
B.Through the 53 street tunnel.And If B what's going to happen to the 63 street tunnel?
Doesn't that gives the MTA a need to add another train into Queens,befor anyone says something,I don't mean the Q.Just any train that can either Give the Queens passengers a choice(The B is pretty obsolete.The D canstill forfill it's normal service ad have some trains make local stops)The R is also obsolete between Queens and Manhatthan.The R could run through there.And this brings up an old question.
Is the Broadway express tracks north of 57 street going to have the same fait as the Chrystie street connection? Yes or no because in theory with the luck i's having the 2 Avenue line isn't getting built unless uncle sam can dsh out 10-20 billion for a subway line.
"The V train is a load of bull shit.The only reason the V is running is because the F has to through the 63 Street tunnel.This is the first time in my 25 years on this earth that the F is diverted on a full time basis."
How is this bullshit? You think no one needs the extra line to Manhattan? The E and F are at full capacity during the rush. They add this line to ease congestion. The F is not diverted. If it's full time it's not a diversion.
"And,when the V isn't running,wheres the F going to go?
A.Through the 63 street tunnel
B.Through the 53 street tunnel.And If B what's going to happen to the 63 street tunnel?"
The F will run through 63 Street full time.
"Doesn't that gives the MTA a need to add another train into Queens,befor anyone says something,I don't mean the Q.Just any train that can either Give the Queens passengers a choice(The B is pretty obsolete.The D canstill forfill it's normal service ad have some trains make local stops)The R is also obsolete between Queens and Manhatthan.The R could run through there.And this brings up an old question."
What the HELL are you talking about?
"Is the Broadway express tracks north of 57 street going to have the same fait as the Chrystie street connection? Yes or no because in theory with the luck i's having the 2 Avenue line isn't getting built unless uncle sam can dsh out 10-20 billion for a subway line."
It offers flexibility. Another way into Queens in case something messes up in the 60 Street Tunnel or Queens Plaza for the R or something.
His brain...... that's what's obsolete....
If your finish talkingabout yourself getto the point
When I speak in the 3rd person, I do not refer to myself.
And, I've already gotten to the point about that, uh, 6th av bull which you imagined out of thin air. You say the V is pointless, the B is unnesesary and the R shouldn't use the 60th st tunnel. I think that me stating that alone sums up any point that I could possibly make about your opinion on the 63rd/6th av plan.
what brain?
FUCK YOU
I believe I can rest my case, your honor. The defendant has clearly implicated himself despite being informed of his Fifth Amendment rights.
-Hank
Thats it Im getting this thread deleted
I am amazed that you have that kind of power.
-Hank
You know I had enough of your fucking sarcasm
I'm sorry you feel that way. Perhaps you should go for a long walk. I hear short piers are nice this time of year.
-Hank
uh oh. you and your sarcasm. better be careful, he might curse again!
The Joe
citzen of a sarcastic city.
No you haven't
you go right ahead and do that.
Rim shot.
Dan
Sorry, i don't do that in public. you have to buy me flowers and a nice dinner first in any case. =)
You've been: Besmirched!
hehehe!
I don't like that WORD!! Some People(Like Me!) Don't even like those NASTY WORDS!!
>>The V train is a load of bull shit.The only reason the V is running is because the F has to through the 63 Street tunnel.This is the first time in my 25 years on this earth that the F is diverted on a full time basis.And,when the V isn't running,wheres the F going to go?<<
>>A.Through the 63 street tunnel<<
>>B.Through the 53 street tunnel.And If B what's going to happen to the 63 street tunnel?<<
The correct answer is:
A!
Now that he's gotten the right answer, let's see what he's won!
A brand New Service Pattern!
Yes, the F will run express in queens and through the 63rd st tunnel all times (local nights). Whilst the V Makes local stops through the 53rd st tunnel weekdays.
>>Doesn't that gives the MTA a need to add another train into Queens,befor anyone says something,I don't mean the Q.Just any train that can either Give the Queens passengers a choice(The B is pretty obsolete.The D canstill forfill it's normal service ad have some trains make local stops)The R is also obsolete between Queens and Manhatthan.The R could run through there.And this brings up an old question.<<
Uh, how should I say this.....
WHAT ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT!!!!
What you just stated is crap.
1. This whole D/B mess.
rush hours you need the B to be local on CPW. You suggest making some D trains make local stops. But you'd need to add many more D trains for that to work. And, how would you distinguish them. OH MY GOD!!!! THE B TRAIN DOES THIS!!!! (What the hell you mean by obsolete, I don't know. That whole 'some D make local stops' is bull)
2.The R is obsolete. The R is obsolete!! No!! It allows the people coming from Queens to reach Broadway and to transfer to the 4,5,6, the ONLY Queens Boulevard/Manhattan line allowing a transfer to the expresses on Lexington.
Sometimes, I wonder exactly what goes through that head of yours. The whole 63rd connector is supposed INCREASE service to Queens Boulevard. So, the V gives QB riders a whole new manhattan service, eliminating the G train. QB is getting a manhattan increase as it stands, you need to chill out here buddy.
Yor right but If the 63 street tunnel is going to increase service WHY take away G service
Why take away G service?
Because the point is to increase Queens Blvd. service to MANHATTAN. As it stands, the G does NOT go to manhattan, and most QB riders are headed there. The switching problems at 71st would mess up the whole local line if the G ran on QB.
So, now riders will get MORE service to manhattan.
It's almost impossible to explain to people that do not on the subway how hard it is to turn 3 lines at 71st.
Yes, it is a quick in and out thing and the crew gets no break.
No. It's hell for the towers when things go bad to salvage opposite direction service. You need an extra gap train taking up room and put ins from the yard become a bit more tricky.
I am doing a retraction on this story because I basically mixed up words from my point(I also steered away from my point)And I apoligize to J trainloco for calling him a ditz.Which still doesn't give him/her the right to call me an idiot.
>>I apoligize to J trainloco for calling him a ditz.Which still doesn't give him/her the right to call me an idiot<<
At which point did you call me a ditz/I call you an idiot. I clearly re-call saying that your brain was obsolete, and that you said I was talking about myself.
>>I basically mixed up words from my point(I also steered away from my point)<<
Seriously, you should start reading your posts man...
Or at least sobering up first.
-Hank
So much for COMPAQ adding beer-holders
to their keyboards.. gag!
All computers come with beer-holders built in. They're made by the "compact disc" corporation and they're automatic. You just push the button and it pops out, and push it again to retract it.
Dan
uh, huh huh. hey beavis, share your feelings with the group. uh, huhuhuhuh.
Wow, 25 and you never got through school. How sad.
The V is being added as an additional train from Queens to Manhattan. The F will run at all times via 63rd St. If a passenger needs to go to the the three stops on the 53rd St line that will no longer be served from 6th Ave, they will simply take a B or D train to 7th Ave and cross the platform for the E train. Passengers won't even need to climb the stairs. Can't recall what the F will do when the V is not running, but it likely won't revert to 53rd St.
-Hank
So what your saying,the E will operate on 53rd street alone from 9pm to 6am Monday to Friday and all weekends.right?
If you have d trains make local stops ...
IT IS A B TRAIN!!!!!!!!!!!!
Except during Rush hours where the D will be peak directions. Also, if you make a < Q > make local stops, it's a (Q) Train!
T 2 Avenue local
All times:Local from Laguadia airport to Woodrow.
U 2 Avenue express
Rush hour & Middays:Local in the Bronx,Express in Manhatthan and Staten Island from Gun hil Road to Richmond Avenue
Other times:Local in TheBronx,Express in Manhatthan from Gun Hill road to City hall
X 2 Avenue Epress
Rush hour and Middays:Express in the Bronx and Manhatthan,local in Brooklyn from 3 Avenue/Fordham plaza to Seaview Avenue or Atlantic Avenue.Note:Seaview Avenue trains run express in Brooklyn Peak direction only.
Other Times:Express in Manhatthan,local in Brooklyn from 125 Street-Atlatic or Seaview Avenue.
Y 2 Avenue local
Rush hour and Middays:Local from 125 street to City Hall.
Actually one of the plans is to run the 2nd Av line along a portion of the Amtrak ROW to Co-Op City in the Bronx with 3 stops in the community: Einstein Center, Bartow Center and Dreiser Center.
Gun Hill Road has enough subway service. We need direct subway service in Co-OP City.
While at 34th street and World Trade Center stations last week, I noticed that instead of staying on the same train to go back uptown, both the T/O & C/R went on a different train that arrived a few minutes later. Do the T/O’s & C/R’s still have to do this on lines where trains arrive at terminals every 20 minutes (like most lines at night, or the A in the Rockaways), and at terminals with a loop instead of a crossover (Bowling Green, South Ferry, Brooklyn Bridge)? Thanks for any info in advance,
B63Mike
At the loops, the same crew stays on the train, since these are not terminals in the usual sense. Otherwise most crews do drop back at a terminal. Exceptions include Times Sq on the Flushing line annd 14 St/ 8 Ave on the Canarsie line.
Thanks
It gives the a chance to use the little boy's room,
or whatever their plumbing preferences may be.
Elias
Look at what someone is selling on eBay as being from the Second Avenue EL... Looks a lot like an R-9 handle to me!!
Click Here to View Item
That's a Manhattan El car "strap" ...
Except that it is not from an el car. Clearly it is a strap from an R1-9 series car. IRT cars were similar, but were round, where as on this on the grip is trangular. IINM el cars had leather straps for this purpose.
Elias
Geez ... you're right ... just went and looked again myself. I was thinking of the latter cars on there but yeah, the arm is too long also. Whoops!
YOoooo- SELKIRK (Kevin)
ELIAS IS RIGHT - The IRT Low V, High V, and Gibbs (*)and Composite(*) cars (ALL IRT subway cars from 1902 SEE (*) thru 1938)---had rounded bottom porcelan coated
steel "hand grabs", sprung to return to"center" position as provided by the carbuilder - BUT (*)
note that Composite cars AS BUILT in 1902-3 and Gibbs cars (steel) of 1903-4--- prior to their center door upgrading around 1909-11 had LEATHER el car straps factory installed. These were replaced during center door upgrading along with removal of original link & pin couplers for the newer IRT "J" (Janney) couplers ---with the sprung, steel - round porcelan types at that time. Prior to the "improved" steel Deck Roof Hi-V subway cars (only 50 built for the IRT) of 1908, which were the first to have the sprung steel porcelan-coated grab handles) - the only straphanger equipment manufactured were the leather straps hanging (and swaying as the car rocked and rolled) loosely on steel rods. ALL BRT/BMT el cars - ALL IRT El cars ---had these straps of leather to their ends of service...remember the Q types up to 1969? The BMT Standards and the SIRT cars had a round-bottom porcelan coated strap also. The D type units had short, sectional longitudal "bars" porcelan coated spaced at intervals, similar if not identical to the later Multi-(BMT) section articulated units...no "sprung" graps on those two type articulated units.
NOTE: RE: BMT El Cars - The C-type rebuilt units also had the sectional porcelan-coated steel longitudal standee bars which replaced their leather straps in their 1923 rebuilding from El Gate cars.
THE STRAP IN THE EBAY PHOTO >IS< AN R-1/9 type ONLY.
The IND R-10's had a modern stainless steel "curved handle" grab with a flat bottom..along with IND R-7 Hybrid 1575....followed by the stainless steel longitudal "bars" on the R-11 (BMT/IND Budd Cars) and IRT R-12, 14 & 15 with similar longitudal "bars" along the ceiling for standing
passengers to hold on to - not comfortable with an un-moving bar your arm held on to as the train swayed, lurched and careened around curves and switches...as compared with the individual "sprung"
units that allowed some passenger movement along with the swaying of the cars. The IRT R-17's and BMT/IND and IRT cars onward reverted to the R-10 type stainless sprungs grab-handles up to the R-42's at which point I end this...I believe the unweilding longitudal bars are used on rolling stock past that point..but dont quote me past the R-46's.
Kevin (Honarks' Pigway AKA Selkirk) - SHAME on you for your post re: "its an el car strap...!" - an OLD head (heh,heh) like you who RAN those oven-roaster
smoking DeSoto's, (or Hudsons, Packards) R-1/9 cars- and saw those hand grabs a million times on YOUR babies... enroute to your phone-booth cab (wonder if Superman ever used a MM cab to change "suits" in absence of a phone booth!??)---how could you NOT remember them,,,I'm sure you must have clunked your head on a few in your in-car duties over the years on the IND of your good service under the Tee-Dooouble-OOooou (TWU-Mike Quill, your hero!).
Yes, the City's IND had to devise a "better" hand grab than the tried and true IRT type - even if the
hand-held type was flat compared to IRT/BMT/SIRT round bottom...just to be different. Otherwise we would NOt have been able to identify THAT ebay strap
(2nd Ave El...yeah, right!!!) (heh,heh,heh, arrrgh)
Regards - Joe @ NYCMTS
joe... i just read your exposition on straps from the early cars, and as usual i think you are full of crap... you're making most of this stuff up, and no one here knows enough to catch you on this... i however am fully knowledgable on all subjects relating to subway cars... i acquired this knowledge from a correspondence course on subways that i took from the southwestern correspondence school...
uh joe... i hope you realize i'm putting you on... i can almost hear you cursing at me when i challenged what you said...
i came very close to soiling my pants when you let kevin have it... i personally think he banged his head too many times on those r9 hand holds... i think he has a clear case for worker's compensation from the mta, even after 25 years...
the real reason i am sullying myself by posting here is to find out if you will be at the king of prussia traction show on saturday... i was looking at your website, and couldn't really make out if you were going to be there... you plugged your own show come next year, but it wasn't clear whether you would sitting in your chair showing your video tape and cursing everyone out...
hey... i took out a set of lionel trains that had been sitting in the closet for about 20 years... i set up a simple oval, after looking up in a couple of track books to see how to do it... the track wasn't rusted, but it was far from clean... i put the sante fe diesel, not my original lionel engine, on the track and really had a blast watching it go around and see all the sparks flying from wheels and the center contactor... i bet your layout doesn't arc and give off a nice ozone smell...
joe... have you ever been in b&h photo on 34th & 9th ave... they have a truly amazing conveyor belt, elevator system of delivering things from all parts of the store to the front counters... i would love to put one of your miniature cameras on a basket and film it going around the system... that set of conveyor belts and elevators must be worth half a million dollars or more...
by the way... when the **** are you going to have those videos of your lay-out ready for public constipation... i sometimes imagine you laughing your *** off at all the guys who are waiting for them to come out.... paul
Heyyyy-- Heypaul (Yo- Teach---) - Hey---welcome back to the site - I've been away from it myself for a while...guess your head is filled with GM Greyhound diesel smoke fumes - I know you probably like to ride in the back seat near the crapper - and listen to the rear axle hypoid gear noises and singing tires and air brake cylinder sounds of a Greyhound stinkmobile----now get some of that fragrant eau-de-subway air to clean out that diesel gas from your sinuses (heh, heh - burppp)---Yeah - when I read the first few lines of your post my dander started to glow red like, what the &^%@# is he saying---and then I realised you were joking.
Yeah...my NYCMTS rolling stock makes some Ozone gas when my motor and wheel bearing oil gets hot and "burns" - but my systems power needs are like-- my O-scale or proto 600V compared to Lionel Scale or Proto 3000 volts) - I mean --a neighbor of mine's Lionel gondola derailed on a train running at normal speed (his idea - very FAST to me..!) after he went upstais to answer the phone and his steel wheels were WELDED to the tinplate track (with a soft, drooping gondola car-end above) - now Thats AMPERAGE. I run on that sissy 0-18 V-DC (Ie: "scale 600v??!) at max 2 to 3 amps for a many-motored train of 6 or so cars.
Yes, I will be dropping by Saturday to have lunch with some of my NYCMTAssn Group at the KoP show - but have to work Saturday night - big gig - so will leave by 4PM to get north the Sumneytowne area on N Rte. 202.
I will give you more details by email...so we can meet again.
Me? Cursing at the (my group's) show // MOI???
Never -except to foamers and loons (heh heh) --only when someone wants to rewind one of my sample tapes behind my back and presses REC instead of PLAY and then asks me why there is NO PICTURE (flamer-loon)
I know my models (120 something) I displayed at my show last year (all the NYCT transit O-Scale stock) are great, but some people (!?) of androidian
characteristics just wont take NO for an answer re:
are the models for SALE...whine, moan, bang my ears off---foam curling from corners of their mouth...etc.----but I'm just a "train dude" type of nice guy--really - you know me...but I will have a surprise (to give to) for you at the KoP show - details in my email. I will be going as a visitor to drop in and see my guys (NYCMTA) and maye buy a few books or videos- and suck up some gin at the bar.
If you want to visit my system...perhaps Sunday if you are in town...we can talk about that.
Yeah---Selkirk (Kevin) changed the sign of a kind, gentle, loving family-operated (heh, heh, har-de-har) store in our old Bronx "hood" from Hoenigs Parkway TO HONARKS PIGWAY by re-arranging some of the very large red plastic wood-backed sign letters' He had an accomplice as a cover, the Third Ave. El's 204th St. Station and cover of night-time...and he lived across the street. Oh, that was 30 years ago - store and neighborhood long gone these days. Kev's an OK guy - no matter what they say here (or kilfile) re; him...
Another thing--stop soiling all your (two pairs of) pants...learn some control--(kidding) ---see you at KoP and we'll talk - I should be there by noon Saturday - God willing et al.
Regards - Joe @ NYCMTS
>>>... - store and neighborhood long gone<<<
STORE...long gone, yes.....NEIGHBORHOOD...still alive and kicking I oughta know...I've lived there for the past 20+ years.
Peace,
ANDEE
Hi ANDEE - yes - what I meant was MY/OUR long-past time period of that neighborhood incorporating people who lived in that and other Bronx neighborhoods 30, 40 or 50 years ago who WE older
guys like Selikirk (Kevin) --Myself, Roger Arcara
(an old friend, Bronx guy, transit historian and author...died a few years ago - bad clock)...knew and/or socialized with...most who have, like myself,Selkirk, etc., moved away. I can NOT go to any neighborhood I lived in from the 1940's thru 1970 (when I left NY) up to visits circa 1980 and find ANYONE I knew who still lived in the old areas...all moved up and out---I did not mean to imply that the physical infrasturcture of your neighborhhood was gone---but most residential units
and stores (like Hoenigs etc etc) have changed hands many times since 30 + years ago - older inhabitants of then either moved or died off...with a small few probably still around ---this is just a saga of life, making it ($) - moving up and out to better trappings - getting older - newer people following into units vacated time after time until there are few of the old timers from the past left. My mother lived (until she died) in her upper East side apt. for 45 years - as did most of her fellow-tenants (25 to 40 years) but in the last 10 years her building has completely
lost all its (from the 40's and 50's) original tenants and her apartment has changed hands 6 times in 15 years --I know NO one NOW in the building I was associated with for 45 years ---many of whom I knew continuously in that building for 40+ years - all gone now --I would be a stranger to all the inhabitants of that building today ---so I think you now can get my point....ahem...even the 3rd Ave El I rode in your Bedford Park neighborhood was gone before you moved there !!!
God --The Bronx EL will be gone 30 years in mid 2003 - and Manhattan branch 50 years in mid 2005 - and I rode em both quite a lot!!! Andee--gotta close now---I'm feeling OLD!!! Regards - Joe @ NYCMTS
heypaul / Joe / anyone else going to the KoP show Saturday...
Do stop by my table at the KoP show Saturday and say hi ... It's the table w/ the 20" TV at eye level running (what else) subway videos .... I'll be wearing either a black N/R shirt or a blue 4/5 shirt.
--Mark
hey joe... glad to hear that your dandruff started to glow red when you read the beginning of my post... i like to rattle everyone's cage a little bit..
"I know you probably like to ride in the back seat near the crapper - and listen to the rear axle hypoid gear noises and singing tires and air brake cylinder sounds of a Greyhound stinkmobile"
i don't know who's been telling you stories about how i ride greyhound... but whoever it was, doesn't know anything about my likes and dislikes... while it's true that i like to sit in the back of the bus right next to the restroom, i have no interest in the sounds that come from the rear end of the bus or from the tires or the air that comes from the brake cylinders... i do get some perverse pleasure in the sounds and smells that come out of the restroom itself... seriously, i sit in the back and try to recover some of the expenses of my trip by selling nail clippers, pocket combs, one shot lysol spray cans, hot lemon moistened towels, small rubber duckys for young children to play with in the toilet's holding tank, as well as hamburgers and frankfurters that i cook to order on my propane gas grill...
also... don't keep throwing up the time i thought that your vcr at the show was an air conditioner... i pressed "rec" hoping that your area would be cooler using recirculated air...
being a cheap skate by nature, i'm not sure whether i am going to go to the FREE new jersey transit show in hoboken, which seems to be getting worse every year or make use of the last days of the greyhound pass to head down to king of prussia where i will have to pop for $10 just to get in the front door...
you wouldn't happen to have any free passes?? or is there a special price for aging baby boomers?? i know that there are special prices, since last year i saw a sign that said
ADULTS $10
SUBTALKERS $25
Geeee-heypaul
Seems like you are running a mobile "ride by dog"
(Greasehound) multi-cultural 7-11 store on the busses - you do HAVE a 7-11 mercantile license available from foreign-coin-use only select
vending machines at select midtown-only subway stations---dont you? Shame on you - I know how you hate to part with any coins - even (especially)
non-USA monetary items (heh)
Yeah---Ed Davis (I think) told me story years ago about a momma
pounding on his cab door (dont remember division - route or euipment - probably IND) because her little kid had to "go potty" and she wanted the "occupant"
(Motorman Ed - tho she didnt know the "occupant" taking too long to exit was really operating the damn train) to hurry up (as he found out when he opened the cab door---to HER surprise) so her kiddie could "pee-pee"! (Poor kid---we've all been there in close quarters at one time or another) Ed could have loaned her his standard-cab-equipment regulation TWU approved 7-11 "relievement" styro-cup...I never got the finale of the story - guess they exited at next station --quickly.
Like wow - nifty kiddie occupier--plastic "made just right size and gov't approved" duckies for toilet-floating...sell a lot of those --do ya!!
How about chips, coffee-cakes, Papaya juice... maybe those little packets of peanut butter crackers - you know - tiny snack items I read you are fond of passing out....for a small stipend of course!
You can get them REALLY CHEAP at the "6-month old and over odd- lot-Wholesalers Distributors & Vendors outlet at the Harlem River around 132nd street Bronx--look for the Earl Sheib blue-& brown colored painted l958 straight-body truck with the hand painted signs (name above) on both sides(you can spot it right off because all the "S" letters are backward and it has only 3 of the 4 rear tires (duals) &...2 guys with some kind of towels wrapped around their heads (must be to soak up sweat on hot days, I guess)
A word to the wise - its cash and carry-they dont take credit cards---or checks - dont cut yourself on the 6 or so abandoned autos they have surrounding the truck to disguise it and make it blend in-- inconspicuously --to the site ---and the dog - dont pet the dog or get tooo close---filthy thing--some kind of odor---snarly type w/ brownish fangs.
and - anyway - you will be set up with looow-cost edibles (snacks for re-sale) for many bus trips to come!!
Re: the KoP - you could get into the hotel-employees
housekeeping unit facilities and "borrow" a porters uniform (pea green pants & tan shirt) and a pail w/ rags and cleaning materials - and saunter into the room for free...past the registry desk while wiping down the walls with a rag as you slip past the table...you know...covertly...and once you are in - just ditch the hotelery crap & bucket (or use it as a "basket" for your purchases)...hey - you can probably leave later and walk out wearing the uniform - free shirt and pants - rugged material for
back of bus store-setups (spills n' things)
and those long abandoned RoW bramble filled excursions!!
Aw...come on down...I'll buy you a glass of water (with ice cubes) at the hotel bar when I have my gin drinks...I know they have FREE peanuts on the bar (the kibble in bits in those bar-bowls) - you can have my lunch "soup crackers" ---we can use your ice cubes to "stretch" my soup---we can share for the price of one...---hey ---I'll see you there - wait for my email--regards - Joe
joe...i try to keep the selections of items down to a minimum, otherwise people start getting very picky... this way, they buy what i have or they can go hungry...
i like your idea of getting into the show for free... it'll be easy, as i already dress like a porter... all i'll need is the bucket and a couple of thick rags to clean up with... "is that some dust on your display table?? let me wipe it off before anyone notices"... i can add a few pcc's to my collection real cheap that way... say joe, just between you and me, do the dealers have any electronic tags in their items that will go off if they aren't deactivated at time of sale??
about saturday... which is the worse bunch of railfans to be around? the ones at hoboken who are getting in for free or the people who are paying $10 a pop to look at models that are going to cost hundreds of dollars??... then again, if it's a railfan, there isn't much of a difference...
>>>...do the dealers have any electronic tags in their items that will go off if they aren't deactivated at time of sale?? <<<
Don't worry Paul, I have a deactivator.........
(heypaul slips andee 2 $20's)
Peace,
ANDEE
What about squezzing heypaul for a Ben Franklin (no, not the 5 cent piece)?
BMTman
Nah, now you would be eligible for the franklin rate...heypaul gets a discount...
Peace,
ANDEE
I wonder what the bus driver had to say about Haypaul's gas grill.
hey steve... i know how to handle hound drivers... i gave him 2 free franks and some lemonade... no problemo
During my first ride on an AA train on May 7, 1967, my father once asked out of curiosity if the motorman's cabs were johns. True story. I replied I didn't think so.
All depends on how you look at the crew sheet and the car assignment. :)
This was a train of old timers. Even the side destination signs were backlit. All I know, all those marvelous sounds had me mesmerized. On top of that, those little recessed handholds on the door leaves looked very tempting. I came this close to pulling on them.
Those were for the benefit and amusement of the hammerheads only. :)
And just to show where I was back then, I thought the compressors were actually internal combustion engines idling.
A ride on an RDC would have straighted that out for ya. Heh. As a former motorman, the sound of those compressors NOT shutting down causes sphincter tingle. The consist that did me in didn't shut down either ... air leaks galore ... it was comforting when they STOPPED every now and then with their ptoo ptoo ppptoo pfffrp ... Heypaul's train didn't sound all that happy if you knew what they were supposed to sound like ... and I swear I also hear a worn kingpin in there too - dangerously worn ...
Say, Paul, all you need to do now is run your Lionel train from your motorman's cab.:-)
Heh. Yeah, I can't believe I got that one wrong either. Shows ya what more than 30 years away and not yerking off to subway cars will do to ya. :)
Yeah, go ahead ... rub my nose in it. I can only plead brain damage on that one. I knew it looked like what I was used to but somehow I thought I had seen those on the 3rd Avenue el cars (the old Q's) but once I went and looked, saw pix of beat up leather. Then I thought maybe LoV's, nope. When I went to eBay to look the first time, all I saw was the picture on top - hadn't noticed the others with the curved mount that would have given me a better clue.
So yeah, I deserve to have my face in it for that one. All I can say is as you get older, it's the mind that goes first. Good thing it ain't a vital organ. :)
YOooo Kevin; (MMMooooo---burp)
Nah--your brain cells are not that far gone yet --you only had a few years on sucking up Eau de IND Ozone on those battleships you piloted - hell, you only crinkled and chipped the grime off an anticlimber at CIY ---imagine if you hit a Q-type el car!!! HEY--did you "crack" the cab window with your head --or not - that glass probably cost as much then to replace as those famous $600 a-piece US government purchased toilet seats and $3.99 per bulb reverse-screw transit incandy light bulbs (made in Bosnia??!!) Remember the cretin natives who thought of replenishing their home light fixtures with TA bulbs by stealing them back in the late 60's--early 70"s --I caught a couple of kids doing that in my beloved Low V's on the Lex WH PL RD line in '68.
When all those subhuman thrifty-ites got their treasured bags-full of purloined bulbs home - Voila!!--damnnnn - mofo%%$#@$& treads be on wrong - and after the word got out over time thru the subhuman networks that "de bulbs don-work--sheeet"- remember the rash of broken platform light bulbs - these clowns would walk along the platforms on the els (for some reason--mostly the els) with a small
solid object and smash bulb after bulb on the platform length. Enter the CAGES for bulbs era--those tiny wire cages to encase bulbs. Its a wonder they didnt get the idea to steal THOSE to sell "cheap, mon--" as rooftop drain downspout
strainers-protectors ---oh well, heypaul would get a laugh--he probably remembers. Ever wonder why some of your R-1/9 Nash Ramblers had many empty bulb sockets on night runs???
Heyyy...brain cells - you are smelling toooo much methane up there in Patunker-land - horse and cow MOOO--NUUURE (Manure) along with those wayward
pet skunks the locals let out at night for romps - who get flattened by passing cars & trucks by moonlite! (heh--heh ) Yall need to get back down to the City to suck up some of that multi-nutritional effervescent
"city air" ---hit the subways for some forced air
ventilation---maybe hit a TA "restroom or two" for old times sake---vent some excess Patunky-imbibed fluidics there - stop at GCT shuttle platform for a $3.50 hotdog ---maybe take a nostalgia trip to "the site of Honarks next to the invisible (but still there we know) 3rd Ave El (ANDEE (subwaysurf) says Honarks is in the great Pigway in the sky now) - and - hey...cruise the old hood by foot and look up old
neighbors and friends for a hoisting of a few brews at the local pubs---then take a nostalgic tour around 207th Street yards---sniff the fragrant Harlem River beachfront - stroll the pale-beige sands along the shore (all 10 grains of them left) at the foot of 207th St.)..and head back up the Deeeegan
Killway back "upstate'...home sweet (Patunky) home!
(heh, heh---just squeezing them for you a bit - all in fun---good to hear back from you)---PS - did you hear--- one of my friends from the TA took 2 of my O-scale IRT R-33 WF (single unit) cars from my private production (not MTH cars) run - painted them Redbird colors - - weighed them with one real railroad spike each - and sunk them in his TA office fishtank at the Bronx lay-up yard he works in -resin floats in water - thus the "spike" weights needed.
The large fishtank was missing some needed artificial reefs (THE STORY is true BTW)
Lastly - did your wife just love the trackside full tunnel volume audio of heypauls IND tapes as much as your neighbors did?? 45 minutes of screaming -wailing bull & pinion gears and loud groans of R-1/9 Desoto accelerations....(LOL) Try headphones next time at same volume -that will shake up the brain cells - make you think you're in the cab again - good for kicking around the molecular cell structures - exercse those "cules"--and in private!
Till next time - chow - regards - Joe @
NYCMTS (heh-heh!!)
Heh. Yeah, I hit my poor wittle haid on the glass. Cracked it too (the glass, nobody cared about my head) ... *TOLD YA* I had brain damage. :)
If I had hit a Standard, I would have been worried - fortunately it was another battlecruiser and yeah, the metal bent a bit and chips of dust DID fall off along with a bit of rust but overall, didn't crinkle all that much. I was told the couplers and mounts were junked though.
As to the bulbs, most of the cars I had were indeed lit - one of the most amusing exercises I remember was having the cab door open on the northbound CPW and I noted out of the corner of my eye that the car lights were getting brighter and brighter to the point where I had to close the door a bit, then darkness. Since the bulbs were I think 33 volters in those cars, all strung in series - if a bulb failed, it'd just shunt, upping the ante on the others until critical mass was reached. Then Foomp! I do remember hearing a breaker drop out when that happened and it didn't want to go back on.
And as to the manure (or as WE prefer to call it, "fresh country scent") *NOTHING* beats the stink coming from the state capitol. Even the cows are pulling their udders up over their snouts. Paul's tape needs to be played over the state agency fire public address system. I just might have to sneak up there one of these days - I know where the plug-in for the "Capital Police" (that's what they call themselves, spelling is not on the civil service test) is and it feeds all buildings including the Senate ... sorry to hear a lovely run of R33WF's is swimming with the fishes - you have some sicker freinds than I, bro ... but then again in 30 years, YOURS will still be intact down there. Heh.
You need a nice, beefy power amp to really appreciate those R-1/9 sounds. My MacIntosh does a nice job there.
Computer or tube amp? I am confused, hallelujah.
Neither. It's an MC2500 solid state, 500-watt/channel stereo power amp. Weighs 129 pounds. Bridgeable mono. Can drive loads as low as 2 ohms. Answers Clara Peller's "Where's the beef?" question.
Is this one of those lovely, huge, classic MacIntoshes stuffed full of tubes?
-Robert King
Here's what an R1/9 brake handle looks like (although they didn't have the bicycle grip on them as standard issue - looks like Heypaul was folling around with it):
http://www.quuxuum.org/~joekor/handles/rtypebrake.gif
This seller has over 1600 positive feedbacks. This by itself should give any prospective bidders complete confidence in this seller.
Yeah, but he doesn't know the exact details of his piece; and how do we know that 1200 of those are buys, and 400 sales?
-Hank
Well I must admit this seems to be an HONEST seller - If you check the description now he/she changed it to eliminate the reference to the second avenue el. I wrote to them earlier explaining the item.
Just because there are 1600 positive feedbacks doesn't mean that the seller is a railfan and knows what they are describing to 100% accuracy.
Good tip: Do your homework by always following up with a private email to the seller inquiring as to any additional information about their knowledge of a particular sale item prior to the placing of bids.
BMTman
Do you think it will ever be able to build the ind second system with connection to staten island?
How much would it cost?
a couple of billions
The cost of a tunnel (or bridge) from Staten Island to Brooklyn would be at least $2.5 billion exclusive of any connections to existing lines. A Staten Island-Manhattan tunnel would be over $4 billion.
There is a less expensive alternative -- connect Staten Island rail to New Jersey and then go via Penn Station or PATH.
why not raise 500 billion dollars to biuld a bigger system to nj and long islang and westchester all in the subway?
or extend HBLR to and over SIR.
I think the "Second System" as envisioned in 1929 is pretty much a dead letter.
If there is ever major new rapid transit construction, it would be wise to do it as a sort of regional rail approach with fast service to outlying city neighborhoods and no City Line restriction.
IOW, wipe the slate clean and plan for current and future needs.
if you didnt 7456-7460/7476-7480 in service on the 6
Thanks for reporting that. I saw the set going somewhere a few days ago.
-Stef
also if you get the post last week it was 6411-6415/6321-6325 on the 2
also 6316-6320/6526-6530.
A couple of other carsets:
#6351-6355 was on the road today! After being dormant for who-knows-how-long, now, it's out the haystack!
Also, some set in the 6660s was out on the road today...
Cleanairbus
hybrdidbus@aol.com
AHA! This was the thread. r142notes.
Around 6 responses all by r142man himself, including the one who started the thread.
I appreciate your notes, but pretty soon, we won't need them for very much use when all of them come in.
LOL
: )
Railfan Pete.
its true
The notes provide a source of information for those of who are interested in tracking the progress of the 142s. Perhaps you should suggest to Pirmann he take it down since they won't provide us with useful information for much longer?
Your attitude is pretty sour. Chill out dude.
-Stef
My attitude is sour? I wasn't making a big deal of my statement, it's just that I don't spend a lot of time with R142(A)'s because I don't ride the subway near there frequently.
And when I wait for a #2 train, it's ALWAYS a Redbird. Am I just unlucky? (Although once, I spotted a Downtown R142 train at 34 st Penn Sta. but we were heading UPTOWN on a Redbird #2. On the route back from E. Tremont Av., we met with 3 other R142 trains in the adjacent tunnel going UPTOWN, and I guess the T/A has scheduled a bunch of R142's at a time, and whenever I arrive at the platform, it's a Redbird. (NOTE: Due to timing, we do not wait for trains. The first one comes, we get it.)
And this was a couple of months ago during the summer.
Railfan Pete.
Your best bet is to wait on a "island platform" such as 110th street and Park Place in lower Manhattan that saves you the energy of running back and forth like a damn fool!!!!! like I did for the R-142's, now the wait is about every 5-8 minutes or so.The R-33's are starting to appear on the Dyre Avenue line I saw the 9000's series over the weekend.
i was on 9006 on the 5 yesterday
he man what the hell is wrong with you i dont go out on a platform and wait a r142 everyday.usually it just happens that i get on the r142 .i see the trains from the train im on. so what the hell is the delivery list for.when i see a train i report it.this type of is a response that drives people away from the board.people do like to know what is going down with this.like stef said i dont come to make eminemes.start making a postive statement now please.yeah and that shit you posted was lol
Thanks Pete but I for one appreciate the notes since I'm keeping track of the delivery dates. Sure in the long run it won't mean much but I think the progress of the deliveries (and the progress of the scrapping) is worth preserving.
if you didnt know 7456-7460/7476-7480 in service on the 6
The BMT was a big mess this AM. And I extend my regrets for all that were inconvenienced. The weekend Trackwork in the Montgaue Tunnel ran late. Also adding to the jam was switching problem and congestion at 36 Street. When service resumed trains were stacked up like dominos. Trains were stacked in stations as well as int he tunnel waiting to enter the station. I walked (After being off-duty) from Union to 9th to get the F. F trains were also packed and delayed due to some problem at Smith and 9th.
If any Sub Talkers were late, please call 718-243-3222, give the line, car number, station and direction of travel (ie to Manhattan) and NYCT will issue you a delay letter for your employer.
Ah, the joys of being at the wrong end of the seniority list. You get to have Tues and Wed off, thereby missing the results of 3-day GOs.
I dont mind! I posted as a courtesy to those who might have been stuck or delayed by this late running track work.
Got hung up North of DeKalb for a N train that was on the bypass track. Then that N Train got a sick customer. Joy Joy!!
man everything messed up this morning!
QUEENS BOULEVARD E TRAIN HAVIN SIGNAL PROBLEMS!!!
MY BRO GETS ON AT JAMAICA CENTER AT 815 AND 920 IS ARRIVING AT QUEENS PLAZA!!!!!!!!
By 7:15 am things were rough going into Manhattan. I have noticed a significant increase in ridership since last week. The kids are back to school, and everyone is back to work. Just a guess anyway.
An hour plus from Jama to Queens Pza? HMPH! An ox cart would have been faster! :o>
wayne
I do regret that you had a bad day on the subway. I do recall many times riding in a car and being stuck waiting to enter NYC in the Holland Tunnel for over 1 hour! I still hear the Traffic reports and often the Holland, Lincoln and GWB are 1 hour and up waits. I never hear build another bridge or tunnel or close the bridge and tunnel.
Usually the subways are much better than streets and highways. Tuesday AM was a rare event. Give us a break! Let's say we do away with all G.O.s- then we'd be reading about derailments, stalled trains, track fires,etc. We'd be reading posts about "Why dont they repair the subway?"
Let's say you need a new roof on your house. It is a mess until the job is done or perhaps you say no new roof and your ceiling falls due to a major leak.
NYCT tries to keep the G.O.s to a minimum and overnight. If it cant be done overnight such as elevated lines then it is midday. If it takesd longer then it is weekends. Unfortunately, work sometimes takes longer than planned. While I do not specifically know why the weekend G.O. on the Montague Tunnel (BMT to Manhattan) ran long, I expect that the person in charge is probably explaining to their superiors.
We do not enjoy having to issue block tickets, G.O. tickets, calling police for crowd control,being physically threatened (such as our S/As were at Rockaway Parkway L last weekend[I was in the booth as the Lunch Relief.]), etc. but for some of us at least, it is a pleasure to serve our customers in spite of the problems- some of which are the customers themselves.
I have decided to modify my Second Avenue plan which is going to include the Second system's
Boston Road(Bronx) and Rockaway(Queens)line.The 1 draft should be complete as early as Thanksgiving or as late as 2003.
Have anyone here play the new Microsoft train similation game?
I bought it yesterday and Im almost hooked. It runs smoothly on my system with a Geforce GTS graphics card. THe game consists on many differents activities. It costs 45 bucks at Compusa.
I read many reviews for it. It doesn't seem to have many "build your own" options in it like BVE which I'm stuck to. Which is free by the way, so you should go try it out. Here's one of the help pages to get you started.
http://hometown.aol.com/bvehelper
After you figure it out, go head over here...
r68a_5200.tripod.com
for some goodies for it.
I don't know if anybody has noticed yet, but Abacus software is about to release an add-on that will have a Chicago "L" route that will include the "Loop". Count me in, I guess it's just a matter of time before we see a NYC line add-on too.
Also, check out one of the Train Sim sites, the Japanese sell a controller and brake handle, a la joystick. Not for sale yet in the states, though if Train Sim continues to sell well we'll have them here too.
We've got: Hot Lunch!
The game is great. I got it for about $30 back when it first came out. I used a Staples coupon and also got a free copy of Flight Sim 2000 after rebate.
But I have a problem with the game - I'm running Windows 2000, and when I end a particular "simulation" in in order to go back to the main menu, the computer just instantly reboots.
You might what to try this website for all the information you need about MSTS.
http://communities.msn.com/TrainSimulatorFanSite/_whatsnew.msnw
Good Luck,
Paul
Probably because of a core dump, it's a blue screen that appears so fast you can't see it because it reboots.
I have built a web site of interest to those who wish to create or discuss fantastical transit lines. Here is a plan for an elevated line on Fifth Avenue. The major premiss is the elimination of vehicle triffic along the Avenue, and the use of these LRV lines to replace existing bus service. NIMBYs need not look.
Fifth Avenue Els
I have not yet made this site public, but will do so shortly, if you have any comments on the site (or the Return of the Els) please let me know.
Thanks
Elias
The general idea is well presented, but there will never be an elevated line on Fifth Avenue.
Fifth Avenue is the world's premier and most famous, highly respected and prized street for shopping. A El will never be.
Yes this is so, but if it were presented as part of a package to turn Fifth Avenue into a wide pedestrian mall, with kisoks leading into the stores, and by making the street itself an attraction. With plenty of trees, benches and fountains...
It would be like brining a prime park right to their front doors!
Thanks! : )
Elias
Some of the apartments along 5th avenue cost more per month than most people make in a year. Do you think they'd put up with the idea of an el causing the buildings to rattle every few minutes? Besides, they live on 5th avenue and can afford cabs, they don't want or need a subway or el. And 110th and above has a lenox ave subway, which is only a block away from 5th.
"And 110th and above has a lenox ave subway, which is only a block away from 5th."
Most people travel more than a few stations to get to their destination. Therefore, a fifth Avenue can work beside the Lenox Avenue line, because they travel in different directions below 110th Street.
The problem I have with this idea is the fact it will be elevated. Other than that, I think 5th Avenue is a good idea. Especially compare to the buses that uses the same street.
As for having service on 3rd Avenue, I would rather see it on first. Why? Because unlike the Lenox Avenue line, the 4,5, and 6 travels parrallel to 3rd third, making any rail transit on it, useless.
Also, first Avenue is far enough from Lexington/Park Avenues to be a viable mode of transportation, especially compare to the M15.
N Broadway Line
N Broadway has a point, forget 5th Ave and run it on 1st or 2nd Ave and extend it up in the Bronx, maybe along the Metro North Harlem or Amtrak lines
"As for having service on 3rd Avenue, I would rather see it on first."
First and Second Avenues are both six lanes wide, and are major north south arteries for vehicular traffic. Any plans such as I am thinking of would really disrupt these roads, squeezing this traffic out into what would otherwise be quieter avenues.
The original premiss was to see what avenues could be CLOSED to vehicular traffic, and then having created a GREEN AVENUE, placing adequate transportation facilities on it.
Remember, these lines are replacing BUSSES and are not trying to be subways. It is intentional that they do not extend into the Bronx. People from the Bronx *should* be on *subways*.
I might have stopped the 5th Avenue line at 110th street, and the 3rd Avenue line at 96th street, but this would be overtly racist, and therefore not possible. Rather than noise or other issues, it is likely that the issues of racism would prevent any consideration of this project, which is a sad commentary on our nation.
Elias
"Some of the apartments along 5th avenue cost more per month than most people make in a year. Do you think they'd put up with the idea of an el causing the buildings to rattle every few minutes? "
Yes, I do think so, for the entire package is a trade off of many sorts. First, Fifth Avenue closes to all through traffic, I brings the park almost to their front door. With the departure of traffic noise in the area should drop dramatically.
Next is the fact that these are not your father's els. They are not made with 1800's technology. They are made of concrete, with sound absorbing materials. The lines run straight and gentle, with much lighter weight vehicles. There is no reason why sound should be an issue: Traction motors do not make much noise, and rails sounds can be completely dampened out with padded trackways, and rubber isolated wheelsets.
Finally, through this area the lines are low, and on the far (park side) of the avenue. People on the ground level will look under them, people on the second floor of these building ought to be able to look out over them.
The idea is that they will replace motor busses. Those *are* noisy and smelly too.
Besides which, they cannot complain about their backyards! These will be built in their FRONT YARDS! : )
Like I say, it is a trade off, and I think a very favorable one.
Elias
Also the rich people on 5th above 59th will yell and scream and they have the gelt
Considereing the presence of lines within a mere two blocks, why bother?
Incidently, they tore down the 5th Ave el years ago, even before they tore down the Fulton St el.
-Hank (~snicker~)
That was in Brooklyn, Manhatten had 2nd 3rd 6th and 9th, no 5th
That was why I was snickering.
-Hank
As near as I can tell, 5th Avenue never had ANY rail transit, while every other avenue did (many horse-drawn). Why? I'm guessing because the Croton Aqueduct was under there, and no way was anyone going to get near the City's sole source of water through much of the 19th Century.
Kind of sobering to think that the poshest street ended up being the one with no rail transit -- above, at-grade or even below.
Fifth Ave had Horse Drawn Omnibusses and then Motor Bussesa. never any rail
I'm guessing because the Croton Aqueduct was under there, and no way was anyone going to get near the City's sole source of water through much of the 19th Century.
I doubt that's the reason. I am certain that it's BECAUSE it's the poshest street, they didn't want any lumpen rails in the street.
I also doubt that the aqueduct would be on any part of 5th Avenue. It doesn't add up. First, the aqueduct enters Manhattan at High Bridge, then there is a pump station (or whatever) near City College, and another few further south, but still too far west of 5th, the aqueduct would then be in the middle of Central Park, using the current reservoir and one that was at the current Great Lawn. It would end at a high-walled reservoir where the big library is now. Bryant Park was called Reservoir Square. It would seem to me that the Reservoir would run under 6th Avenue.
Even in 1840, 5th Avenue was lined with mansions. The rich would never put up with such disruption.
I would have to disagree with all of your comments.
First, here is a map showing that the aqueduct was indeed under 5th:
http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~blkyn/Map/1873.index.NYC.html
Second, you can see that 5th is quite unique in its ABSENCE of rail, relative to the other avenues. 5th was obviously quite serene through the latter half of 19th Century, at least compared to all of its neighbors (Lexington was missed, but that was taken care of a few years later).
Third, they didn't put the aqueduct there because it was the poshest at the time. (Can you imagine them trying to put in one today?) The alignment was chosen because of the topography, as this first line was gravity-fed. The area north of 42nd in the 1840s was the country, and accomodated the aqueduct, and its distributing reservoir nicely. With the aqueduct, the area north of 42nd was directly blocked from rail transit, and the area south was benefited as well. Hence mansions like the Waldorf and the Astoria (which led to the Waldorf Hotel and the Astoria Hotel, which led to the Waldorf-Astoria Hotel, which led to the Empire State Building).
Fourth, therefore it was water line first (and absence of rail transit I would note), THE posh neighborhood in town second. The #2 address (Park) has rail, but no stations for almost a century. Poshest neighborhoods on the Upper West Side? WEA and Riverside Drive; no rail transit, ever.
This site treats transit (even els!) as an unmitigated positive. It is more nuanced than that. In order to get new lines built, the realities need to be recognized. Otherwise, communities like Astoria which are unanimous (among their elected officals) against a project will always confuse this forum ("D#!$ed Nimbys!"). They have a point: transit brings positives, but also negatives. Even some of the positives (development) are negatives to many (traffic). Address those negatives, or be prepared for another 50 years no new transit lines.
OK, you are certainly right about 5th hosting the aqueduct. Did 5th become the posh avenue because of the Park, or because it was the first avenue with running water?
No doubt Central Park helped. But the mansions were initially south of 59th, including the last people to make a dime from trains, those Staten Island Vanderbilts.
Incidently, they tore down the 5th Ave el years ago, even before they tore down the Fulton St el.
Actually, they both closed on the same day in 1940 (except for the section east of Rockaway Ave., the last 6 stops of which remain today as the end of the A train route to Lefferts Blvd.)
-- Ed Sachs
"Considereing the presence of lines within a mere two blocks, why bother?
Incidently, they tore down the 5th Ave el years ago, even before they tore down the Fulton St el. "
Actually the plans that I am making for Brooklyn *do* put this line back in again, if for no other reason that not access the 36th Street yards for storage and servicing of equipment. : )
Elias
Much as it might be enjoyable to think of people living in their $15 million apartments having to shut the windows to avoid getting steel dust on their furniture, the situation on the west side with the IND and IRT provides the classic example of why Fifth Ave. is a bad street to run an el down.
Even if the buildings between 59th and 110th were low income housing, the fact is nobody lives on one side of the street, just as nobody lives on one side of the CPW local stops. That's why the B and C trains ususally have plenty of space on them, while the 1/9 train between Times Square and Columbia is stuffed to the gills. The same thing would be true on the east side -- a Fifth Ave. line would pull some people (if they ride mass transit) from a block to 1 1/2 blocks east of the park, but the bulk of east side riders would remain on the more centrally-located Lexington Ave. subway.
"The same thing would be true on the east side -- a Fifth Ave. line would pull some people (if they ride mass transit) from a block to 1 1/2 blocks east of the park, but the bulk of east side riders would remain on the more centrally-located Lexington Ave. subway."
Who ever came up with the idea of putting the IRT line on Lexington Avenue?
N Bwy Lines
Lexington was the most logical location because Second and Third Avenues already had els, which would have made digging under them very costly (unless it's not your money, like the IND on Fulton St. and Sixth Ave.), while Park Ave. had the NY Central railroad tracks. Plus, running the line under Madison Ave. north of 42nd St. would have forced some major disruptions in the original Contract 1 (shuttle) Grand Central tracks and platform. Splitting the new line off east of the GC platform allowed it to remain in full operation while the new Grand Central tracks and platform for the 4/5/6 were being built.
Why can't these light rail vehicles be on street level?
N Broadway Line
"Why can't these light rail vehicles be on street level?"
Because then they'd be traffic-bound -- and therefore slow -- just like the buses they are supposed to replace.
You're thinking of trolleys. Modern light rail systems have their own row (a reserved lane), and cut right through traffic.
"Modern light rail systems have their own row (a reserved lane), and cut right through traffic."
At the cross-streets?!?
Good point. Denver's light rail trains have their own reserved corridor downtown, but are restricted to 20 mph. Ditto on the Welton St. portion.
San Diego Trolley, LA Blue Line, and SF Muni Lines run on City Streets in certain portions and obay all lights
I was responding to your point that light rail is slow, like buses. It isn't. It is faster than buses. Light rail has its own corridor and goes much faster than buses. Both respond to traffic lights, but even here light rail is becoming faster than buses (and cars): more and more cities are giving light rail preference in the cycle. It is why these systems are being built in so many cities: decent speed and capacity at a reasonable price.
"I was responding to your point that light rail is slow, like buses. It isn't. It is faster than buses."
I wasn't saying that light rail in general is as slow as buses, just a line that is all street running. I think all the light rail systems that have been built (or rebuilt, depending on how you look at it) from San Diego 20 years ago to the newest systems are great successes, as demonstrated by full park-and-ride lots and that they ALL are either building or planning extensions. They must be faster, or they wouldn't be luring commuters out of their cars.
But with the exception of the new Portland Streetcar -- the managers of which insist is a streetcar and NOT light rail -- all the modern systems have significant private right of way. Indeed, all the surviving OLD light rail systems (Boston, Newark, Philadelphia, Cleveland, and San Francisco) have significant private ROW, including downtown subways, which is likely a major factor in their survival. There's a fundamental difference between even an at-grade private ROW with crossings at only the main streets -- like a mainline railroad -- and something that would have EVERY SINGLE STREET crossing it.
Brilliant!
It remeinds me of the Canal St Line in New Orleans. The new construction of concret on pedestals, similar to those used for the airtrain should be rattle free. The park-like mall would rival Park avenue. The blessing of the quiteness would east the tension of urban bustle.
Can we expect express trams?
avid
If you were to join the lines in the upper portion, the Bronx, you could cut your cost in Half . just a single line, downtown on 5th and uptown on 3rd. With the occasional layup side track for possible breakdowns.
LIONEL, here we come!
avid
This is an interesting proposal, but I'm afraid I'll have to disagree for a number of reasons. (Please read on to the end. The final point is, IMO, the most significant and the most relevant to this board.)
There are residences and businesses along both avenues. They need to receive deliveries, and -- dare I say it -- occasionally a passenger may have reason to arrive by taxi. The avenues can't be closed to all traffic.
Along Central Park, all streets from the east end at 5th Avenue. Your plan would turn them into dead ends, which would require allowing two-way traffic. But they're too narrow to accomodate two-way traffic along with parking, so in addition to eliminating loading on 5th Avenue, you've eliminated loading and parking on the side streets, too. Deliveries will have to be carried by hand from Madison.
Extending Central Park by the width of 5th Avenue doesn't accomplish much. Elsewhere the linear park will be interrupted each block by a cross street. Some park!
Most buses stop every 2-3 blocks, and passengers like it that way. Other buses make limited stops, generally at major cross streets. Your proposal falls in between, not really satisfying anyone.
Have you bothered to look at a bus map? There is no single 5th Avenue line that runs from top to bottom; rather, many bus routes use bits and pieces of 5th Avenue: M1 (139 to 40), M2 (110 to 8), M3 (110 to 8), M4 (110 to 34), M5 (59 to 8), M30 (72 to 57), Q32 (60 to 34), M66 (67 to 66), M72 (72 to 66), M86 (86 to 85), M106 (106 to 97), and a good deal of express routes. Given this great variety of routes, I don't think most passengers are simply traveling straight down 5th. Under your proposal, each one of these routes would have to be eliminated or permanently diverted to another avenue.
What I would suggest instead is a lot less radical but is still a major change from what currently exists: buses in mixed traffic. Sure, there's a bus lane, but it's rarely enforced and non-buses are even permitted to use it (specifically, to turn right, but nobody really pays attention to details like that).
I propose that the two rightmost lanes be physically divided from the rest of the street and be reserved for buses only. Barring true emergencies, no other traffic would be permitted to enter the bus lanes except by special permit between midnight and 5am. Enforcement would be by camera; any license plate photographed would earn a $200 fine per occurrence. (Cameras would be each block, so a one-mile cruise down the bus lane would cost $2000.) Right turns from the main avenue, if allowed at all, would only be allowed at predetermined points, and traffic would not be allowed to turn right while buses are in motion. Loading/parking zones would be on the left side of the avenue and/or on the left side of the island dividing the main avenue from the bus roadway.
Why two lanes? Two lanes allow local, limited, and express bus service to all operate efficiently, and two lanes allow buses to avoid obstructions like other buses that have broken down.
The bus lanes don't need to extend the entire length of 5th Avenue. The big trouble zone is from 60th Street to 42nd Street, with backups often extending as far north as 72nd. The bus lanes could begin at, say, 79th, and end at 40th (with an extra phase in the signal's cycle to allow the M1 to turn left).
This would roughly yield the efficiency of a light rail line with the flexibility of a bus line.
David,
Thank you for your comments.
It was not my plan to close Fifth Avenue to all traffic, but rather to through traffic. Loops (I was thinking two lanes would be enough) *could* be as short as a single block, or more likely several blocks long say from 60th Street to 72nd (or whatever- I don't have a map here at the moment- ). Those who as quickly want to make time, will quiclky find themselves a different route.
I knew that there were several bus routes on Fifth, but was not aware that it was quite that many. It is the reason why I *never* ride a bus: you never know where it will turn or where it will go. At least a Subway Train has to follow the tracks.
Connecting buss routes, and subway routes could match up with this line nicely, and is one of the reasons why I think we can get by without collecting fares on this line: you will pay when you transfer to the bus or subway, as MetroCard collects only one fare for such connections, we can assume that such a connection will be made.
Is it perfect? No, nothing will please all people.
Will it happen? Probably not.
The exercise, like a crossword puzzle is in the trying.
I like your ideas for the bus lanes, that seems very inovative. My whole idea hindges on a scheme to eliminate almost all private passenger vehicles from lower Manhattan, by charging tolls, by eliminating parking, and by eliminating certian streets and avenues from the traffic grid. Yes every address needs to be accessible to a vehicular delivery, but this does not mean that what was a through road needs to remain as such, and some short stretches ought to be closed to vehicles.
Sidewalks are crowded. Roads are Crowded. The number of users does not grow less, something has to give. If you try to force people out of cars, we need something else to take their place: something that is user and environmentaly friendly. Great walking plazas instead of avenues in certain areas has its appeal.
Will it happen? Who knows?
Can we choke the city with cars? Yep... we already done that!
Can it Change? I think it has to.
We keep thinking.
nyc2020
W or Q? On Friday morning down to Brooklyn, afternoon back to Manhattan, which is the better train to catch?
Q - the West 8th street stop is closer to the Aquarium than the Coney Island stop.
subfan
or the F, but that would be longer,
What's so special about the aquarium anyway?
It's a nifty place to throw silly questions to the sharks.
As long as they don't attack first.
It's a nifty place to throw silly questions to the sharks.
I'd rather throw a trainload of high schoolers...
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Yea, that'd be good too... how did today's youth become so corrupted?
how did today's youth become so corrupted?
And how did you become so ill-informed?
How about backing up your statement with some facts? The News at 11 doesn't count.
You want me to give you some facts? Fine... everyday when coming home FROM school... I see SCHOOLMATES abusing drugs. I hear from SCHOOLMATES using haarder drugs, you're obviously not gonna see someone doing hard drugs on the street. A lot of them are also doing crimes such as credit fraud.
You want me to give you some facts?
Perceptions are not facts.
I see SCHOOLMATES abusing drugs. I hear from SCHOOLMATES using haarder drugs, you're obviously not gonna see someone doing hard drugs on the street. A lot of them are also doing crimes such as credit fraud.
However you can't say that any of these activities are more or less common now than they have been 20 or more years ago?
Drug use is DOWN. Credit fraud is likely up (I have no concrete evidence of that) but tele-purchasing, which is more conducive to credit card fraud is also on the rise. I doubt that credit card fraud is up among youth any more than it is up among others.
While you maybe true, I'm certain that drug use is up. There was a thing on Good Morning America that said that after a 9 year study, drug use is dramatically up and anti-drug campaigns are not working. This came as a complete surprise. They also mentioned that drug dealers are no longer the mysterious people in trenchcoats, but rather a child's friends at school. I also remember that ~25% of students have smoked at age 12. Can we just drop this subject regardless of whether i'm right or wrong?
There was a thing on Good Morning America
Television is for entertainment, not information.
This came as a complete surprise.
The drug use being up, or the anti-drug campaigns not working?
According to CDC statistics the percentage of persons 12 years of age and over who used marijuana in an average month was 5% every year since 1990. Use was at 10% in 1985 and 13% in 1979.
In 1998, that figure was 8% for those persons aged 12-17 years, it was 14% in 1979. The all time low was 3% in 1992, which is your nine year figure. It's obvious that they chose an odd number like 9 only to prove their point.
Marijuana use among 16-17 year olds was 15% in 1998. Individual data is not available for that age group before 1994. As a comparison, one can use the 18-25 age group which was 14% in 1998. It was 36% in 1979.
Can we just drop this subject regardless of whether i'm right or wrong?
No. You shouldn't have gotten me started.
(The drug use being up, or the anti-drug campaigns not working?
According to CDC statistics the percentage of persons 12 years of age and over who used marijuana in an average month was 5% every year since 1990. Use was at 10% in 1985 and 13% in 1979.)
I'm Class of 1979, and worked for years as a professional social scientist. And I can tell you as a fact (or at least as a matter of data) that my generation was the most F--ED up and F--ED over. Today's teens ON AVERAGE are better educated, and far less likely to make life diminishing mistakes (drugs, booze, cigarettes, teenage pregnancy, auto accidents, etc).
The only good news about my high school years is that they were after heroin and before crack. I was probably one of a handful that DIDN'T smoke pot. And remember, I went to high school in two places, suburban NY and Tulsa OK, so it wasn't just a one-place thing.
Well good for you American Pig, you know what you're talking about, but can you really say that not a day goes by when you don't see a teen abusing drugs? As for television is for entertainment, there are some things out there that are pointed towards you learning something. For instance PBS has a program called learn to read.
but can you really say that not a day goes by when you don't see a teen abusing drugs?
Yes I can. But what I see or don't see is not actually what happens.
Drug use is not the only sign of decaying youth, or of decaying society in general, especially marijuana use, which is less addictive than tobacco and less harmful than alcohol.
For instance PBS has a program called learn to read.
PBS has a lot of other programs for learning. Maybe I should have said COMMERCIAL television is for entertainment.
What about cable channels with educational programming? I guess I should drop that comment about TV being exclusively for entertainment. Still, I always take TV news with a pound of salt.
... how did today's youth become so corrupted?
Not all of them are, fortunately. But it seems that whenever I end up in the City during the week, it's right at "school rush" time on the A in Brooklyn and Queens. Hence my suggestion to use the rowdies as shark food.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Oh, ok that's what you meant...
TV
Yes, we didn't have bloody wars that killed $30 Million people before there was TV.
It has fish - some of us actually find them interesting. :-)
subfan
You find Fish Interesting?
I find Phish even more Interesting.
Phish have long Hair, Boobtits, can get pregnant if you get frisky and finish in her... :)
Phish are better.
Um... yea... that's more like it...
Does the aquarium have Redbirds on display yet?
I would definitely take the W if you're going after 10AM. It's supposed to run express on the N Coney Island bound. See:
http://www.mta.nyc.ny.us/nyct/service/subsrvnw.htm
It would be worth the couple of blocks walk.
Afternoon? Q to the . I'm not very objective when it comes to the Brighton Express but, don't miss it!
Co-op city-The X will run express until Tremont Avenue then seperate fro Branch A(Fordham Plaza)and run local via Tremont Avenue until East 180 street where the 2 and 5 meet,then go up Morris park Avenue until the tunnel reaches a street a block east of Eastchester road,then the tunnel will turn and go North until Pelgamm Parkway then following the Bx12 until Pelham Parkway(6).The train to city Island will turn NE while the Co-op city train will turn North then run until Asch loop where it will terminate.
City Island-The X to city Island will run express until Pelham Parkway where the express tracks will go up Shore road to the turn off for city Island
Fordham plaza:This train will go up 3 Avenue to Fordham plaza.
Oh my god, you think you can put a tunnel or even an elevated structure on city island? THINK AGAIN!@# There's only one street it could go on or under, city island avenue, and thats really tight on space. Have you actually ever been to City Island?? The Bx29 has a bitch of a time to turn around at the end of City Island Avenue, it has to back up, go into a parking lot, back up again and then it continues its trip in the opposite direction. City Island will never have an El or a tunnel, it simply will not do. Light rail on City Island might be a solution, but a maintenance facility might be kind of weird since there is no extra land there...
Light rail on City Island would have one advantage over the current Bx29 bus service - with double-ended LRVs it wouldn't have to turn around to reverse direction in that pain-in-the-ass way that you mentioned. Another advantage might be an in-station transfer to the 6 train, though that might require some construction at Pelham Bay. A maintenance shop would probably have to be constructed somewhere on the mainland.
I just don't think so!!!!
T.
I'd for love something to go to Fordham plaza again!
The difference between thou and Lance Storm
is that when he wishes to "be serious for a moment"
he can actually be taken for such.
Why Asch Loop when Einstein Loop is where it's at!!
Amtrak has stated in response to an inquiry that the ROW remediation work in six rock slide areas between Boston and New Haven will be completed by November 2001. These stretches of track have been subject to speed restrictions, single-tracking etc.
The work has included removal of unstable rock and soil, shotcreting, netting and slope revisions. In November, the Acela Express will begin operating through those areas with no speed restrictions.
So much for the bliions spent on the shore line. You'd think they would have done basic stuff like clean up the ROW back then. 6 by 4 foot boulders are bad mojo to be on or near the tracks. And it was obvious the second that one dropped what was going on - it's difficult, virtually impossible, to move a rock that size without everyone noticing it.
Phil, any railroad that runs along a seashore is extremely difficult
to maintain. You can clean up the RoW all you want and it will
still slip every now and then. Somebody made a bad strategic
decision back in the 1880s to build the line so close to the coast,
and somebody in the 1920s decided to make THIS line the mainline
rather than the inland route or any of the other possible routes.
These strategic oversights are hardly Amtrak's fault. If you think
you can maintain the Shore Line better, why don't you convince
Amtrak to make you their MoW chief?
Railroads require level ground. They follow rivers and other bodies of water. There was nothing flawed with building the Shore Line along the shore.
Mike: Steam railroad requires level ground. An electric railroad does not. There are many railroads out there which do not experience landslip on a regular basis, because they follow either small bodies of water, or they are far enough from a large body of water that it will take the body of water some 2000 years to erode the rock away between the body of water and the railroad. Building a line ON the coast, with CAUSEWAYS going over the actual bodies of water, is pretty short sighted and stupid. I don't blame the New Haven for doing this, because they were simply trying to get A RAILROAD to go between Boston and New York. However, these things should have been cleaned up as soon as they made money off the route. UP went back and cleaned up a lot of its RoW after Harriman was finished with it. There's even a by-pass built in the 1900s which took the mainline away from Polmontary Point. Why didn't the NH&H do that? They were too English -- yes too chicken.
First, the Shore Line is just about the straightest line between New Haven, Providence and Boston. It also serves several other IMPORTANT cities like New London and Attleborro. Second, the "grain" in this region goes North-South (I took a geology of Connecticut class so I know). You can either follow the shore or run up to the middle of Mass. (aka Inland Route). To do otherwise would be to pull a Slateford Cuttoff with the only differance being YOU'RE NOT CUTTING ANYTHING OFF.
Come on Lexcie, keeping large boulders from comming off and landing on the ROW isn't rocket science. This mearly requires one to clear the close rock formations, and remove any that are crumbling. This should have been done with the suposed "upgrades" to the ROW that were supposedly done years ago. As should have decent drainage, etc. It's getting pretty obvious that Amtrak half assed this whole project, and half assed jobs don't stand up very long.
On top of that, they've been having troubles with drawbridges getting stuck closed. Of course, I'm sure if a few large boats "broke down" while going through an open bridge and tied up service for 5 - 6 hours, Amtrak would "fix" the "problem". You really have to have moronic management to blow 2 industrial motors on a bridge in less than a year...
None of this stuff is rocket science, none of it is special, none of it requires and type of magic. Apparently, samtrak can't even get the simple task of running a train down, letalone expanding services and sucessfully introduceing new ones...
Spoken like a true genius who knows it all. When do we elect you world emperor, so you can fix the Middle East, the Koreas and starvation in Africa?
I see things have gotten better at Amcrash: it used to be drawbridges would get stuck open. Even better, we paid homage to Evel Knievel's aborted Snake River jump by having clear signals displayed over the Hackensack River draw with the miter rails up. Result- Mail 12 got to visit NJT's Boonton Line, and the MoW person in charge WHO WAS WARNED REPEATEDLY that there was a problem with those same miter rails before the wreck (ahem- diversion) is now a VP.
BABS! The Eggman is here!
People who are incompetent have to be promoted to areas where they no longer have actual responsibility. It's the only way to get rid of them.
There is no argument that Amtrak's $2bn scheme for Acela was done on the cheap. The reasons are: (1) If they were to go for something which might actually work, they would have gone for the Swedish X2000 tilting trainset which is based on technology that powered the AEM-7's (now don't argue with me about these meatballs -- they WORK). (2) There's no point being whole assed about the RoW if you are going to buy half assed rolling stock, e.g. the Acela set, and anyway they didn't have enough $. Actually the whole decision to go tilt is pretty stupid as it only benefited people travelling between Providence and New Haven -- hardly a busy corridor. Boston residents got marginal benefits, but anyone who lives South of New Haven can still charter an AEM-7 set and have it overtake an Acela train without breaking the speed limit. But don't get me started on that.
Lexcie
The Swedish X2000 was WAY underpowered. It only had one power car and probably didn't meet FRA crash standards.
LOL, B/T New Haven and Penn an Metro North train could probably overtake the ACELA.
Because an Acela going any faster would rip out the catenary. Then everybody would be dead on the tracks...
Bolders near the shore? I doubt it. Most of the run from New London to Providence and Boston is quite a distance from the shore. My own limited experience on Amtrak suggests that southern RI is a prime location for foreign objects on the tracks.
Great. This just spoils our plan for the Acela Express 2 for 1 weekend Special which expires on September 20, 2001. I was hoping for the best ride on AE if possible.
: |
Railfan Pete.
I've been reading alot of postings about the "V" train starting as early as this weekend. Where are people getting this infomation?
Did someone see a poster or memo? Where?
I saw a mention of it on the MTA homepage. It says that it'll be running from this time to that time on weekends. But no mention of when it'll start.
I've been asking my friends in transit and people sitting in token booths. They haven't heard anything.
What have (and where did you hear what) you heard?
We're all talking about the GO you saw, its scheduled to run November 7th for real I think, correct me if I'm wrong.
Clayton, see my post on November 11 sim which is this Saturday. I got my info from someone in my office with an ear into OP and the TA RTO GO office. So, my information is very solid since my office depends on it to schedule work.
Is there any public announcement about the "V"? It's nice to hear from a friend of a friend who works in the office. But If there is not a poster, where could I read the bulletin? In a tower or dispatcher's office?
Actually we have the GO in the office and it is written as 5am Saturday until 2 am Sunday.
Where is the "V" train suppoed to run? If I'm not mistaken it may run od the IND 6th Ave. line in Manhattan.
#3 West End Jeff, formerly BMTJeff
I know WHERE. But I was wondering WHEN?
Unfortunately I don't know when the "V" train will start to operate.
#3 West End Jeff, formerly BMTJeff
nov 11
That is if nothing else goes wrong.
#3 West End Jeff
That is if nothing else goes wrong
#3 West End Jeff
Last night on the Queens Blvd. lines there were some R-40 slants signed for the V making runs on the local tracks. All empties except for the crews. Must have been familirization runs, but there they were in real time.
I've heard from some dispatchers there is a dry run of "V" trains running from Continental to 2 Ave. this weekend. But he also said since Train Crews have not picked yet so it's unlikely service will start Nov. 11.
The Train Operators & Conductors are scheduled to start picking in about a week. Plenty of time for a Nov. 11th start of regular V service.
I spoke to a T/O at Roosevelt. He told me there were no operational problems with the V. I followed up with "Did the V delay you [he had the F Line] in any way?" he advised he arrive dat the end of the line on time for each trip.
I've heard from some dispatchers there is a dry run of "V" trains running from Continental to 2 Ave. this weekend. But he also said since Train Crews have not picked yet so it's unlikely service will start Nov. 11.
In my posting I didn't say anything about a GO. I was asking where did people hear about the V Train starting? Did you read a poster about it? If so, where did you see it? And when is it supposed to start?
It was on all the newspapers. It was announced a day before the 'W'
I've been reading alot of postings about the "V" train starting as early as this weekend. Where are people getting this infomation?
Did someone see a poster or memo? Where?
The V train was running this weekend between 71 Avenue and 2 Avenue via the 53 Street Tunnel. The F was running between 179 Street and Coney Island via the 63 Street Tunnel. The service notice stated that this would be in effect all weekend. I rode the V on Saturday enroute to the Hoboken Festival. The train was composed of -40's.
Larry,RedbirdR33
This Saturday Sept 8, the TA will be having a simulation of the new improved service plan which debuts on November 11 with actual trains in service. There will be no shutdown of the 53rd street tube so it is an interesting chance to see how the new improved subway lines will look. i.e the E and V via 53rd and the F via 63rd, the R via 60th and the G deadended at Court Square.
Will Jamaica be supplying cars for both the G and V (as well as E, F, and R) during this sim, or will there be some cars from another yard (like CI) helping out?
I'm asaking because I want to get a "heads up" on what I will be seeing.
Last simulation with all the E, F, G, R, and V operating together got 6 cars from Coney Island's Shuttle fleet. This time the G is operating a short route. I doubt that'll be necessary. But if it is, Coney Island seems to have plenty of cars lying around on the weekends, al la the R40s. I doubt there will be service affected in Brooklyn.
I seriously doubt that this simulation will require any CI cars. Considering that weekend G trains are "cut" from R trains, and 6 car G trains are left lying around, I think that there will be enough cars for the test.
What I will find interesting will be the Normal operation of the lines. On weekends, what will the G operate? And what will happen to the 2 car R-46 units? I guess Nov. 11 isn't that far off, now is it...
The G Line will probably operate it's post-November 11, 2001 route. The 2-car units will get split among the Queens Boulevard Lines. The G will be shopped at Coney Island with some 4-car set R68x. Which is why the question was raised by R36 #9346. If there aren't enough cars to support the E, F, G, R, and V post-November 11, 2001, will there be enough for the simulation that they have to borrow from Coney Island? Maybe yes for the simulation but not for full time service as the fleet will have maintainence needs and there will be a shortage if a car has to be taken off the road for a significant amount of time.
Have any more been sunk since the famed first sinking ?
All answers greatly appreciated
Have you read your SubTALK posts today?
what do you mean?
Apparently the Portland (OR) Streetcar is no longer without incident. An auto ran a stop sign and hit one of the cars. There was only slight damage to the streetcar, which apparently had about 50 passengers aboard, and some of the riders were slightly hurt. The bad news is that the fleet of 5 is temporarily down to 4, which is what is needed for the basic weekday service, so there are no spares for at least the next few weeks until the damaged car can be repaired. No word on which of the cars was involved.
From the report I saw, there have been many near-misses as motorists get 'accustomed' to the streetcar. (I'm not sure how 'accustomed' one has to become with a 66' vehicle on the street to know not to mess with it, but of course we live in a country where people try to beat heavy freight trains at crossings all the time...)
You can see from the dented and bashed skirts below the anticlimbers on ALRVs that plenty of people in Toronto aren't accustomed to the 75 feet long streetcars on Queen St., which have been there for 14 years now, and still do stupid things to get into accidents with them all the time. I've even had the privilige of seeing a few take place as a bystander near the camera store district on several occasions.
If this is any example to go by, don't get your hopes up for the people in Portland - you'll probably be disappointed!
-Robert King
Of course, in Toronto, you have lots of replacement ALRV's. In Portland, if one more car comes up lame, service may have to be suspended. Those 2 additional cars are supposed to be coming in from Skoda by the end of the year, but anything could happen to delay this, I'm sure.
the times square shuttle seems to make people wail longer than nececary, at times i see all trains in gct when all trains are running
why is service like this
Ask Traindude.
Why do the people wail? Also, doesn't your computer have capital letters and periods?
- Lyle Goldman
Apparently, lincoln has contracted a case of heypaul syndrome.
Some people don't bother to proofread their posts. Others don't bother to coordinate the dispatching of shuttle trains.
You can co-ordinate all you want. If the doors don't close, the shuttle don't move: guess why the doors don't close?
The shuttle trains are too short?
That, and the fact that even after the "closing doors" announcement is made, people are rushing towards the train like it's the last one! They get in the way of the closing doors and delays everyone.
In case there's someone who still doesn't know how long those trains are, the train on tracks 1 and 4 are both three cars long, and the one on track 3 is four cars long. Each train is made of the respective number of R62A cars.
An interesting thing about the train on track 4: At the Times Square station, all the doors on the right side of the train open, except one panel at the back of the train. That part of the train is right at the edge of the station! I'd take a picture of that part, but it's waaaaay too crowded back there!
There seems to be some sort of work going on next to the Track 4 platform at TS. Dare we hope that the TA will find a way to provide just a little more platform over there?
...And to think "Abe" was once our PRESIDENT!!
I'm sure I'm not the first to see it, but it was the first time I saw it--R110's on the diamond Q!! It was stopped at Newkirk while I was on my way to the city on a slant. I wonder if that train of 110's on the Brighton Express sped down to the Beach?? Anybody ridden on one?? Tony
R110s? On the BMT? Are you certain?
IIRC, those cars were ONLY out of 207 for occasion "C"harlie line service, since 3 out of the 9 cars were stripped for parts for the remaining 6 MUs.
All 9 cars are operational as of now.
If all nine are operational now, the question remains, what line are they operating on?
No, nine are not in operation. Only 6 out of 9 MUs are in service. 3007-8-9 were stripped for parts to enable 3001-6 to operate.
I don't know if these MUs are in service still on the "C"harlie.
They have been under the microscope to be returned back to service. There are some pictures of them recently at www.nycrail.com where you can see equipment all inside the cars.
They are handsome cars. More attractive, in some ways, than the 142 and 143.
They sure are. But the interior seats need some work. I think the R143's shiny nice front is nice as well. Is that fiberglass or polymer?
I said operational, not in service or anything like that. Operational meaning able to move under their own power. I don't know if they're usable, but they are operational.
They ARE??? I thought the Parts Vultures at 207th Street Shoppe picked over the three high-number cars. If not, when did these return to service?
wayne
They are not. 3 are O/S. I spoke to Ted Kozcon at 2-7 the other day with regard to this.
When 'Ted' said they are "O/S" did he say: "they're still unoperational", or did he say that they were "not running". There's a big difference.
Not running because they are unoperational.
There is a set of three R-110Bs at 207 yard. We saw them on the tour this morning.
Those 3 R110 MUs are maybe the ones that were stripped for parts for the other 6 MUs.
Yes. 3001-3006 are okay. 3007-3009 have been stripped of parts but are getting them replaced to be operable again.
The R110 MU I saw had its taillights on.
All train's tail lights come on when the reverse key or switch isn't set.
I asked the tour guide at 207 yesterday if the 3 R-110's were able to operate, and he replied that they were. They looked in good shape although that does not indicate whether critical parts have not been removed.
its true because he the ta rebult them at 207.the line maybe the a
I think you were having a railfan dream.
Or possibly a R143...What were the numbers?
Better hook up with that person why was certain he rode a train across the Queensboro Bridge a few years back :)
--Mark
Sir, you're scaring me. Can you please waltz yourself to the Roster section of this website and ID the car you saw. It is possible to be an R110B or R143. If it was an R110B, I doubt it was in service. The upper portion of the Q Express Line is not readied for R110B service, there are no C/R boards there. The R110B is shopped at 207 Street and it'd also seem pointless. It may have been the R143 doing some speed tests I guess heading from East New York Yard to the Sea Beach for some tests there as well.
But don't they go to Culver for testing, NOT Sea Beach or Brighton? Those cars are all over the place testing, but aren't all over the place IN SERVICE!
Actually, I think Culver only does braking tests.
If you saw the cars, what numbers were they, and there are differences in the front of the 110B to the 143. Letter route sign is on top and not on left window like the 110's. Marker and headlight configuration is larger on the 143's compared to the 110's. And the 143's are 60 ft. cars compared to the 110B at 67 ft. If you really saw them, I want to know.
Well I know for a fact that the entire brighton line has R-110 boards. I was on it today. Even the local stations have the boards. I saw one at Ave J. So it seems as though there are conductor boards for them. Maybe he really did see r110b's at Newkirk.
Only the whole A and (former) D Line is R110B ready. But since the new Q Line runs up Broadway, it puts an R110B in service out of the question.
This evening, I went to check my E-Mail. Admittedly, since I'm on vacation I've been doing too much motorcycling and neglecting my correspondence. However, when I went to check tonight, there were over 1,700 messages in my in-box. I can't even load the page so unless the good people at hotmail can give me some ideas, I'll likely need to empty the in-box. I'm not looking for suggestions but if I owe you an answer, wait another day, then send your message again and hope for the best.
Isn't there a Feature that allows you to limit the number of messages on the page?
This is why I don't even check my Hotmail account anymore. If you have an American Express card you could open a free e-mail account with them using USA.net which seems to me to do much better in filtering out the spam.
Don't bother with free email. Idf you want a reliable email service, bite the bullet and pay a few bucks per month for AT&T or Earthlink.
You are making assumptions that are not necessarilly true. I happen to pay an ISP for my service and get an E-mail address with the account. I use that one for friends and family. I use hotmail for my train-stuff & for e-bay.
Which wrong assumption did I make?
Just wanted to point out that Hotmail is hardly the only web-based free e-mail. I assume you know about the extrememly reliable Yahoo Mail, and there is also Excite Mail, which offers as part of its free e-mail service the ability to hear voice mail in RealAudio if you give out a toll-free number. (Of course, that company is rumored to be teetering, so it may not be there for long.)
But, on top of all that, no proud New Yorker should overlook these e-mail addresses, all of which are available for free on the web:
_____________@nyc.com
_____________@newyorkcity.com
_____________@newyork.com
_____________@ny.com
You can sign up for any of these e-mail addresses by going to the respective sites. Actually, nyc.com and newyorkcity.com are the same, and you can sign up for either of those two e-mail addresses by going to either of those two sites. The other two -- ny.com and newyork.com must be visited seperately.
Ferdinand Cesarano
P.S. -- You won't be able to get "cesarano" at any of those.
Perhaps you need to wait a long time for the page to load? I just recently returned from vacation, too, an had an inordinate amount of e-mail. It took the page a long time to load, but it finally did ....
--Mark
If the inbox page won't load, it is likely that you have the thing set to display *all* inbox messages on one page. You can change this so that only a small number of messages appear on any one page.
After you log in, the first Hotmail page you see (the "home" page) should load easily, no matter how many messages you have waiting. This is a new thing at Hotmail. Hotmail has recently chaged it so that, when you log in, you first go to a "home" page, and have to click on "Inbox" to see your messages; whereas, formerly, you were placed in your inbox immediately after logging in. (When I first saw this feature, I was a little annoyed; yet, this feature proves useful in a case like this.)
To change it so that your inbox will load, first log in as usual, and get to the home page. Then, select "Options" (instead of "Inbox") on that page.
When you get to the "Options" page, you will see a heading that reads "Mail Display Settings". Clicking on this will allow you to set the maximum messages to be displayed on any one page. You can set it to a manageable number like 50 or 100.
If you select 50, you will then have your 1700 messages displayed on 34 separate pages. You will then have to go each page, click the box which allows you to "select" all messages on that page, and then click the "Delete" button which appears on the top and the bottom of each page.
A bit annoying, but, it will clear your box.
Ferdinand Cesarano
P.S. -- I once had a similar -- but even worse -- problem back in 1997 (before Hotmail was part of Microsoft, by the way). At that time, not only was there no Hotmail "home" page (so you were placed right into your inbox upon logging in), but the "Delete" button appeared only at the *bottom* of the inbox page. Complicating matters was the fact that I have WebTV (also later on a part of Microsoft, and recently renamed "MSN TV"), which has a maximum viewable page size. If you try to view a page that is too big, you will see down to a certain point, and then you will see the message "This page is too big to be viewed completely." So, I had about 400 messages in my inbox. The inbox took 10 minutes to load, and then I saw that it had not loaded all the way to the bottom, so I had no way to hit the "Delete" button! Happy ending: with the help of a phone call to a patient friend, I managed to empty the box before it got worse.
I just read Consumer Reports, which rates MSN the worst ISP of the bunch including AOL, Compuserve, Prodigy, and Earthlink. The top three were:
1. BellSouth (which is not national)
2. AT&T Worldnet
3. Earthlink
I have been having trouble accessing my earthlink email accounts via Webmail, which used to be the way to do it remotely. I'm not sure if my employer has restricted Webmail, but I have seen no messages to that effect.
1,700 messages?
And me thought HotMail had a limit of 500 scribbles.
Does Hotmail allow you to download mail to your own machine via POP? That should be a bit easier to manage, but first make sure you have enough disk space.
Microsquish has made Hotmail Web based only. My daughter uses it for personal mail, and it cannot be downloaded.
it cannot be downloaded.
Yes it can. Only if you use Outlook Express
over the weekend i took the ts-gct shuttle, and as i got off at gct, i noticed what looked like some sort of lit up platform down the track that connects to the downtown lex. av line. I was in a rush, so i didn't get a good look, but it seemed to be some sort of new, brightly lit platform in on the lefthand side of the tunnel.
the question of course is: was i seeing things? if not, is it some sorta work platform, like the money train platforms?
On a related topic, i also heard a long while ago that there was an entrance in this tunnel into the old belmont hotel above, so one mr. belmont might go downstairs, hop in the mineola (which probably should have been called the 'belmontmobile' judging from this rumor), and head off to the racetrack (perhaps via the LIRR connection in downtown brooklyn - though that seemed to be another hotly debated tale of subway lore). Anyone know if there's actually anything behind this story, or some proof of it?
-Joe
ps-for all the operatives: have your warsaw pact units ready. code transmission delta. end broadcast.
Could you be thinking of the New York Central spur tracks that run under the Waldorf?
Nopers. this was a seperate location from a hotel belmont owned on the southwest corner of park and 42nd (I believe).
Or was it the Commodore on the NW corner of Lex and 42nd St?
The Belmont Hotel also seems to have had access to the Steinway tunnels, since that was their destination and the site of their opening party after the first ride from Queens. I haven't heard anything about this access, but why would Belmont not put it in, seeing that he owned all that stuff and liked things secret and easy?
As I mentioned when we spoke, I'm curious as to how they got the Mineola freshly stocked with food and cold champagne whenever Mr. Belmont had a whim to go on a cruise. I also can't quite picture the train pulling up and honking so he could leap into it from some dingy stoop before another train came along.
Do you know exactly where the Belmont Hotel was?
The Belmont was on the southwest corner of 42nd and Park. In Stan Fischler's book, "The Subway", a photo shows the author standing next to a sealed-up doorway that he surmises was the subway entrance to the hotel.
was the doorway in the tunnel?
that's one subway book i never read... sounds like i gotta go find it.
I never heard of the connection to the steinway tube, though it wouldn't surprise me at all. wasn't the belmont hotel on the SW corner of 42nd and park? I saw it on some map, but don't recall what the building is today (or if it was torn down and replaced by something else).
i'd assume they stocked the mineola at a yard or on some siding somewhere. ??
All those answers and no one even addressed the question.
What you are seeing is just off of the original right of way which is used for storage and also leads to the Grand Central switch tower. In the passageway from the shuttle to the Lex you will find a set of doors about midpoint. That leads to the storage area and tower.
I believe (can't verify this) that originally it was a solid wall but after the shuttle was created (and the Lex line created as well) a portion was removed to allow for ease of access for supplies and equipment.
I recall the wall being there on a tour ages ago, though they've improved the area a bit, so perhaps they just removed a big chunnk of the wall, tiled and lit it up a bit better?
that's my best theory...
Could be. It has been quite a while since I was behind that door so things may have been brightened up a lot.
I must plead ignorance about this. I know that there is a connection between shuttle 1 track & M/L #1 track on the Lex line. Tis passes a tower and what you see may be a walk-way that's illuminateb by banks of lights. Sorry I can't be more helpful........
i saw the tower once on the day 1 tour, (the tower overlooks the NB local track, correct? or what that something else?), and i recall that there was a wall between the old trackways and the track that connects to the lex line. perhaps the wall was simply removed and the area back there better lit up, as that entire area seems to have been given an upgrade over the years.
hopefully i can stop by soon and get a better look down the track - it's not far at all from the shuttle platform, whatever it is.
If you live in Astoria, and are interested in better transit for the city, don't vote for John J. Ciafone for City Council!
We usually tend to associate Transit NIMBYism with our more affluent suburban neighbors, but, of course, we have some home-grown variety right here in New York City.
At the foot of the stairway entrance to the Broadway stop in Astoria this morning, citi council candidate John J. Ciafone was handing out campaign postcards, so I grabbed one to read on my way to work. About four paragraphs into his bio, after his education and public service credits, it reads, "As your community Activist, Ciafone has fought against the proliferation of Power Plants, against the N-Train extension to LaGuardia Airport, against..."
I suppose if you want to get elected from Astoria, you must state your opposition to improved transit if it's going to disrupt your constituents' neighborhoods.
Other interesting things to note from the postcard:
Tag line: "You Voted for Term Limits. Now, here is your opportunity to End The Dynasty!"
There's also a teeny-tiny little "stamp" on the front which says, "Labor Donated."
I wish I had had time to stop and talk to the guy, not so I could try to turn him around (who, besides me and fellow SubTalkers who live in Astoria, would ever be for the N-Train extension?), but so I could hear a NIMBY's reasoning first-hand. I would have relayed my story from this weekend about how I could have read War and Peace in the time it took me to get home from the Delta Terminal to that same Broadway stop using the jam-packed M-60 bus.
It's always easier for candidates to spout ignorant nonsense than to deal with the issues in a serious way.
And many politicos are dumb as a box of bowling balls and have their "positions" written up for them by political study groups. I always get a kick out of "meet the candidate" situations where I've asked them questions about what was on their "position paper" and damned if most of the time, they had no idea they had taken such a position. Yet we VOTE for 'em ...
And that's why I'd rather vote for a communist than Mark Green, who wants to target juvenile crime (you know, only 13% of all crime).
Mark Green, who wants to target juvenile crime (you know, only 13% of all crime).
Are you implying that juvenile criminals never grow up to become adult criminals by your analysis?
So people should be punished for crimes they haven't yet committed in addition to present crimes by your analysis?
And by your analysis, people in correctional facilities actually get corrected?
...people in correctional facilities actually get corrected?
Not very often, as I'm sure you are aware. But if you look at the adults in correctional facilities, a large percentage of those convicted of non-"white collar" crimes were also in trouble with the law as juveniles. So targeting juvenile crime is a good way to reduce adult crime later on, regardless of how you do it. Personally, I'd prefer to suggest the juvies get a firm grip on the third rail while standing on one of the running rails... then we can guarantee they won't become adult criminals.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
a large percentage of those convicted of non-"white collar" crimes were also in trouble with the law as juveniles.
So what? A large percentage of criminals have committed previous crimes as adults. Maybe we should target their crime too.
The best solution is to execute everyone for their first offense, then you won't have anyone with a criminal history.
I thought Mark Green was a Communist.
He's a socialist, there's actually a difference.
-Hank
I stand corrected.
What an idiot. I thought that the anencephalics already on the City Council were as thickheaded as you could get. But it looks as if John Ciafone would lower the average I.Q. score if elected.
Any lower and he'd have to borrow IQ points from his fellow Councilpeople...
They don't have any to spare. One needs a few points to maintain a heartbeat and breathing.
[re borrowing I.Q. points from City Council members]
They don't have any to spare. One needs a few points to maintain a heartbeat and breathing.
Actually (I'm sure Ron from Bayside or Jailhouse Doc could correct me if I'm wrong), I believe that only the brain stem is needed to control respiration and heartbeat. The brain proper, what one visualizes when one hears the term "brain," is responsible for the thinking and reasoning processes that separate humans from, say, protozoans. All I.Q. points "reside" in that part of the brain. As a result, a person with only a brain stem will have essentially zero I.Q. and no human thinking capacity, but can maintain a rudimentary sort of "life" for a period, not entirely unlike a decapitated chicken.
This explains the City Council.
Yeah, you got it right, basically. As Selkirk would say, "Heh."
MMMmooo! :)
And for politicos, I don't believe the brainstem is required either, just regular household current.
"improved transit"?
Theres a million and one better ways, discussed every other week on this board, on how one might construct a subway to Lga. extending the N will never happen in any of our lifetimes.
Which reminds me, I forgot to mention the ironic thing about the info on the card. Let me transcribe these two paragraphs, as they appear on the flyer:
"As your community Activist, Ciafone has fought against the proliferation of Power Plants, against the N-Train extension to LaGuardia Airport, against Adult Pornography Bars and Shops in our Community and volunteered in Anti-Crime Community Patrols.
Ciafone has fought for more Police, Cleaner Streets, better subway and bus service and more services for our community including Affordable Housing, Senior Housing, and extending senior programs including EPIC, STAR, and SCRIE."
Now, I know he's an aspiring politician, but usually it takes a while before we see blatant contradictions like this! Sure, a subway to LGA would be great, just NOT IN MY BACKYARD!
No matter how you do it, some neighborhoods are going to be distrupted to get the subway to the airport, most likely in his district too.
BTW, the capitalizations are his, not mine. I suspect his advisors "talking points" were simply fleshed-out for the card.
someone, somewhere will be disrupted if they ever get a train to the airport - no doubt about that - but will they only be disturbed by it's construction (if it's a new tunnel route) or by it's construction and then continued presence (an extend el line), is a big part of the game.
it is nice to see this candidate contradicting himself all on one campaign flyer. "improved transit" with no new lines? how'll that work? "the profileration of power plants"? and what in the blue hell is that suppose to mean? "proliferation"? where does he think they're going? I know... i think the 59th bridge looks unsightly and ugly, let me argue against its "proliferation".
*%#&@# please.
"As your community Activist, Ciafone has fought against the proliferation of Power Plants, against the N-Train extension to LaGuardia Airport, against Adult Pornography Bars and Shops in our Community"
It looks like the N train extension is in the same category as power plants and porno shops!
The rigid upright girders trembled and quivered in anticipation as the smutty "N" train strutted with glitter and boldness as it ran its Extension through the soft yeilding center of the innocent community, forsaking all modesty..... it was on a track to internatioal entanglements, bringing shame and dispair back through its former home.
Oh, how have we fallen so low? Bring out the SCARLET LETTER "N" and sew it to your breast, for all the world to see!
avid
I guess the plan is:
If there are no new power plants, there won't be enough electricity to power the subway, so you won't be able to get to the porno shop anyway, which you won't be able to see anything in even if you could get there because, like I said, there is no power -- for the lights. Genius!
I have trouble figuring out what this guy is for. He's clearly against everything. Does that leave anything to be for?
Being FOR something means he has to think!! It's easy to just be against any ideas someone else comes up with.
That sounds like what my sister used to do when we were little kids. "Play with me" she would say one Saturday morning. Anything I suggested she rejected. But when I gave up and asked her to suggest an activity, she would get upset with me and demand that I come up with more ideas for her to reject.
Now someone wants to do just that, only it's not a harmless activity on a Saturday morning and he'll draw a salary to do it...scary.
PS She now has kids of her own...Wonder what they do...
Dude, don't you realize...you WERE playing with her! She already NAMED the game!
It's called, "Let's see how long it takes to annoy my brother."
I used to play this game at home a lot. You should try the 'Other people's home' version!
-Hank
Now you tell me!
She must have been good at it, come to think of it. She never once looked like she enjoyed it (I guess that's the skill part).
He's for those who are moving out and dying off, and against those who are moving in and planning to stay. For senior centers, against schools and infrastructure investment. Just like the current Councilmember. Who doesn't seem to be doing so well in the Mayoral race.
I remember visiting my wife's grandmother in a Bay Ridge senior center before she died, and talking about things she read about in the Daily News. She had a much different perspective than her contemporaries. Why?
a) She was a nicer person.
b) Her grandchild and great grandchildren also lived in Brooklyn.
So she cared about the future -- the schools, the subways we ride.
Her neighbors? Their descedents were all in the suburbs and beyond. "To heck with the people living in the city today; they're not like us." But they all died off. And thanks to term limits, their representatives will finally be gone too.
I hope 1965 or 1977 won't be back (with the blackouts).
I support subway extension to LaGuardia. But you know what? If I lived on 31st Street between Dirmars and 20th Avenue, I wouldn't want a noisy el there either. I suppose other plans have been discussed on subtalk over and over....
www.forgotten-ny.com
But that's the source of the problem. "Noisy" and "el" don't belong together anymore. You, and many others, are not aware of just how quiet a new El can be. "Noisy el" was reality in 1960. It is a misnomer today. That's why MTA would have to do a good job educating people about it. The PA's AirTrain serves as a good lesson in community outreach.
The PA's AirTrain serves as a good lesson in community outreach.
Yeah. It's so quiet you barely know it's there.
On the other hand, I've stood beneath that little piece of "new" El that connects the J to the tunnel at Jamaica Avenue. Thumbs down! I hope that's not the best they can do. It sounded just as noisey as the old El a few feet away. Verrry disappointing!
I've never stood there, but I've ridden the train, and there is a qualitative difference in both vibration and noise on the train. Much better, I think. Of course that may not directly translate to improvement on the street.
Theres a million and one better ways, discussed every other week on this board, on how one might construct a subway to Lga. extending the N will never happen in any of our lifetimes.
All the other ways I've ever seen discussed are either very expensive (bury the entire Astoria el as a subway that runs to LGA) and/or adversely impact existing well-used subway and LIRR services further east (branches to LGA off the Queens Blvd, Flushing, or LIRR lines).
(Theres a million and one better ways, discussed every other week on this board, on how one might construct a subway to Lga. extending the N will never happen in any of our lifetimes.
All the other ways I've ever seen discussed are either very expensive (bury the entire Astoria el as a subway that runs to LGA) and/or adversely impact existing well-used subway and LIRR services
further east (branches to LGA off the Queens Blvd, Flushing, or LIRR lines).)
I agree. The only other idea I've heard that makes sense I heard from a Port Authority person. That is to accept there is not one-seat ride and run the Airtrain up from Jamaica through Flushing and LaGuardia, down the LIRR and BQE ROWs (over them a la Airtrain) to a series of terminals in Long Island City with a variety of connections.
Vallone said "over my dead body" to the N train extension. McCaffery (from Woodside) said "over my dead body" to the plan above or anything like it, since it would go through his district.
Underground at exhorbitant cost OK? Spano, in Westchester, said "over my dead body" to a buried natural gas pipeline (a friend from Westchester told me that unless they find a way for it to through Black neighborhoods on its entire route it will never be built).
I'm not gunna rattle through all the ideas for routes there that never got studied - i'm sure it's all in the archive. the bottom line is this: if they wanted to build a tunnel, it would happen. the inconvience would be a temporary matter during construction (assuming it was done with some speed like the good olde days) = while en elevated creates a permenant noisey structure where there once was not one.
sure, tunnels are more expensive to build, but ask anyone suffering ever few years with the manny b bridge flips how relatively low maintance and reliable they are by comparision.
either way, it's a &*%$$#! mess.
I'm not arguing that els make better transit lines than subways. I'm arguing that subways are so expensive you might as well give up on ever building one to LGA. We're still waiting for the Second Avenue subway to replace el lines long demolished, and that's in an area with much more need for a new transit line than LGA.
Not many choices on the matter, apparently:
http://www.newsday.com/news/local/newyork/politics/ny-qcouncil22.story
In Woodside, McCaffery's would-be successors have focused on the power plants, but not transit (yet?):
http://www.newsday.com/news/local/newyork/politics/ny-qcouncil26.story
It has been said it is extending N or nothing for LGA access. I sure hope it isn't the latter. Maybe the Council will ignore a first-termer from Astoria and build it.
I still say let the PA do the final AirTrain and complete their trilogy, and let MTA save their (scant) money for Second Ave.
I'd support that.
let MTA save their (scant) money for Second Ave.
The MTA could save even more money by making the 2nd Ave line an El. 2nd Avenue is a lot wider than 31st St or 19th Aves in Queens, so the modern El's reduced profile should make it presence even less intrusive than the acceptable limits proposed for Astoria. Background noise is greater on 2nd Ave than in Astoria, so the new "quiet" El should hardly be noticed.
With a single T-Bent or Y-Bent design, and a fancy median on 2nd Av, that could work, I suppose. But you'd invite a NIMBY assault that a 2nd Av subway would not have to deal with.
Choices, choices...
...But you'd invite a NIMBY assault that a 2nd Av subway would not have to deal with.
Why should not Astoria residents be shown the same consideration?
Because the proposed extension of the N runs for only two residential blocks (and hooks into an existing El that the occupants of those two blocks have had the benefit of without sharing any of the burden) instead of 6 or 8 miles.
By your comparison of 2 blocks to 6 or 8 miles are you trying to raise the notion of a cost benefit ratio?
If he is, it's appropriate and relevant to the discussion.
Beware of cost-benefit ratios with Bauman. His discount rate appears to be 20 percent.
Worse than that. He doesn't believe in benefits. So a cost/benefit fraction in Baumann's world results in an error message on the calculator (you can't divide by zero).
I don't use inflated benefits like some advocates for LGA access. For example, the number of employees within LGA is under 10,000 NOT 50,000. There can be no future benefit derived from increasing air traffic at LGA because the airport is already MAXED OUT. These two factors alone place a fairly tight lid on who will benefit from this link.
Do you consider it of no benefit that some people who currently drive to LGA will ride the subway, clearing up space on the roads and helping the environment, or that some who now have no reasonable choice but to ride taxis will have a more affordable means of reaching the airport?
Do you consider it of no benefit that some people who currently drive to LGA will ride the subway, clearing up space on the roads and helping the environment
The assumption that roads will clear up and the environment will be improved is dependent on the assumption that not additional drivers will rush in to fill this space. Given that this assumption holds to some degree, what would the net gain in these areas be in proportion to the traffic volume that is already there? I would be very much surprised if this figure exceeds 5% of current highway use in the near vicinity of LGA.
or that some who now have no reasonable choice but to ride taxis will have a more affordable means of reaching the airport?
The benefit for this proposed extension is limited to the people who use it. I think this number is quite limited and predictable, based on the O'Hare and Midway experience in Chicago.
And the subway system, of course, is of no benefit to people who drive cars.
The simplest, least expensive way to prevent congestion on the ground side at LGA is to close the airport. Failing that, the number of flights per hour at peak times could be reduced by 20-50%.
Of course, if you aren't willing to reduce the demand for access to LGA, the only other option is to increase the supply. Somehow, I don't think that bicycle lanes are going to help. I wonder if your assumption that there is a straight-line relationship between road volume and congestion is valid for all levels of traffic. It seems to me that a 5% reduction in road volume might have an effect on congestion ranging from none to complete elimination, depending on where current volume is in relation to capacity.
It seems to me that a 5% reduction in road volume might have an effect on congestion ranging from none to complete elimination, depending on where current volume is in relation to capacity.
There can be road congestion at at traffic levels far below lane capacity. "Rubbernecking" is an example of this phenomenon. It is due to a single vehicle slowing down. Congestion then propagates backwards in relation to the direction of travel. This one of the major congestion causes. One would have to operate highways at 10% of their rated capacity to eliminate this type of congestion. Therefore, I'd venture that the highway volume reduction of rail acces to LGA would have little or no effect on highway congestion.
Assuming that the number of flights at LGA remains stable (eg no increase), then introduction of rail service and its use will result in some shifting of passengers to rail. Car traffic will initially dip, then increase again only to the point of established demand.
The big issue on 2nd Avenue, as Paul Matus' article on the Second Avenue El, is traffic movement. Trucks and buses from the north (including transit express buses) can't use the FDR. It's pretty much the 2nd Avenue/1st Avenue pair.
A modern el is quiet, but not that quiet. I've advocated paying compensation for those living on the two blocks directly adjacent in Astoria, so they can leave if they want. Maybe they should be commercial.
On Second Ave, the el would be right against the towers, it would be scores of blocks instead of two, and the population density is greater. You can't possibly pay all those people off and tear all those buildings down. If the Second Avenue El was still up, and the issue was extending it two blocks through a residential area, then I'd say yeah, extend it don't tear it down.
You could do a monorail, with pillars in the parking lane, but you'd lose the link with the rest of the system: it would help Manhattan only.
So yes, I believe that building a Second Ave subway and a ahort extension of the Astoria El is not hypocricy. And, as I've said, I'd at least like to hold out the possibility of a further extention to College Point, where Park-N-Ride facilities could be provided for eastern Queens on the wasteland of the former Flushing Airport.
BTW, I live in a flight path, and lived for many years overlooking the Prospect Expressway, where I chose to move. I didn't whine about it.
BTW, I live in a flight path, and lived for many years overlooking the Prospect Expressway, where I chose to move. I didn't whine about it.
Isn't the Prospect Expressway in a trench for most of its distance?
So is the Vine Expressway in Philly. Live next to it? You can hear the din.
I agree with your logic. You post quite reasonably.
On Second Ave, the el would be right against the towers, it would be scores of blocks instead of two, and the population density is greater. You can't possibly pay all those people off and tear all those buildings down. If the Second Avenue El was still up, and the issue was extending it two blocks through a residential area, then
I'd say yeah, extend it don't tear it down.
You could do a monorail, with pillars in the parking lane, but you'd lose the link with the rest of the system: it would help Manhattan only.
So yes, I believe that building a Second Ave subway and a ahort extension of the Astoria El is not hypocricy.
Not to mention the fact that a Second Avenue subway was promised 75 years ago and paid for 30 years ago. Building an El instead, even if it were practical (as you point out, it isn't) would be akin to breaking that promise.
The big issue on 2nd Avenue, as Paul Matus' article on the Second Avenue El, is traffic movement.
This is really a non-issue. The support pillars for a new elevated would straddle the sidewalks rather than be in the middle of the roadway like the old Second Avenue El.
On Second Ave, the el would be right against the towers,
The width of Second Avenue, like most Manhattan avenues, is 96 feet building line to building line. The width of the roadway is 60 feet with 18 foot wide sidewalks. The roadway was widened below 60th St to 72 feet by removing 6 feet from each sidewalk. The width of a subway track is a max of 15 feet. Even a 4 track elevated line would leave 30 feet buffer space to the property line.
...it would be scores of blocks instead of two...
The towers, to the extent that they exist, would cast an acoustic shadow and limit noise levels behind them. The avenue blocks are much longer than the crosstown blocks. You should really measure the "noise zone" in feet or meters.
You could do a monorail, with pillars in the parking lane, but you'd lose the link with the rest of the system: it would help Manhattan only.
The proposed Second Ave plan helps the outer boroughs by diverting passengers from Manhattan from the existing lines. An el would have the same effect.
"The towers, to the extent that they exist, would cast an acoustic shadow and limit noise levels behind them. The avenue blocks are much longer than the crosstown blocks. You should really measure the "noise zone" in feet or meters."
You must be aware that an elevated structure, if not properly set up, can amplify noise generated under it (car brakes, stereos, conversations, engines running etc.).
amplify
Amplify, no. What's its energy source for amplification.
Reverberate, possibly. As such, the deviation to the inverse square dispersion in free space would be limited to directly under the elevated structure.
"Amplify, no. What's its energy source for amplification"
The same as the effect you get from ac simple rolled tube.
"Reverberate, possibly. As such, the deviation to the inverse square dispersion in free space would be limited to directly under the elevated structure."
Then why am I affected even though I'm not under the bridge?
The same as the effect you get from ac simple rolled tube.
Like a megaphone?
Then why am I affected even though I'm not under the bridge?
Clearly, clearly you have some anecdotal experience in mind. Could you give some more details? Which bridge? Where was the sound source? Where was the observer? etc.
A median on a one-way street? Not unheard of, but generally awkward, and usually an artifact of former two-way status.
...down the LIRR and BQE ROWs ...
The problem with this alignment is that it goes right through the Woodside Houses complex. These people are already subject to excessive noise from Amtrak's Hell Gate Bridge trains. The amount of noise these trains generate is unbelievable considering the distance that the project is from the tracks. Their skepticism and cynicism about a quiet unobtrusive Airtrain is understandable.
Unfortunately, the least obtrusive route -- which would be to split a new line off the No. 7 train at Shea and run it elevated along the Flushing Bay side of the Grand Central Parkway to LaGuardia -- is also the most unlikely, since Main St. Flushing can't afford to lose the number of trains per hour a seperate branch to the airport would require.
[since Main St. Flushing can't afford to lose the number of trains per hour a seperate branch to the airport would require. ]
That sort of implies that the train only serves Main St passangers.
Arti
Well, Main St is the origin/destination for a great many riders on the 7. Not sure what the percentages are, but even on weekends I often have to stand the whole way from Grand Central to Main St.
Well, Main St is the origin/destination for a great many riders on the 7. Not sure what the percentages are, but even on weekends I often have to stand the whole way from Grand Central to Main St.
The 7 is probably the only line, apart from the shuttles and maybe the L, on which a significant percentage of the riders regularly travel terminal-to-terminal. On most other lines that percentage is probably almost zero.
throw in the "E" for terminal-terminal rides.
avid
Also, to a lesser extend, probably the J. And all shuttles.
If there were other lines in the area, I'd agree, but Main Street not only has to serve as a terminal for Flushing but for buses going to and from other sections of NE Queens (though if Steven's right about the greater train-per-hour capacity at Times Square than at Main Street due to the tail tracks, there may actually be some room for a LaGuardia spur to be built feasibly).
Main St. Flushing can't afford to lose the number of trains per hour a seperate branch to the airport would require.
That may be true BUT Main St can handle a maximum of only 30 tph, whereas Times Sq can handle 40 tph. The TA recently spent over $30 million dollars to prevent expanding the Main St capacity beyond the 30 tph limit. Even in the old days when they ran 36 tph, only 24 tph originated/terminated at Main St; the remainder originated/terminated at Willets Pt or 111th St.
If there is a 10 TPH difference, than I suppose they could split off the line between 111th St. and Willet's Point (or between Willets Point and Main Street, if having a flying junction over the Corona yard flying junction is too complicated), and run the remaining capacity to LGA.
With the track mergers and peak hour express runs, I don't know if they could add a full 10 trains to match the 40 TPH limit at Times Square, but even seven or eight TPH to the airport would still mean a train would be leaving LaGuardia every seven to eight minutes, and there really isn't any place to put other stops if you ran the line along the bay between LGA and Roosevelt Ave.
In a utopian world, the 7 extension would be built adjacent to, or even as part of, the new "Ebbets Field' the Mets plan in the parking lot next to Shea. Wouldn't have to get wet while entering the ballpark.
The big problem with the backward to Flushing then onto Manhattan on the #7 route is the 20+ minutes it would add, each way. It would eliminate the value of the connection -- a faster, more consistent trip.
The big problem with the backward to Flushing then onto Manhattan on the #7 route is the 20+ minutes it would add, each way.
Could you justify that statement? The distance from Willets Pt to LGA is about the same as from Ditmars to LGA - approximately 4 miles. The running time for either route should be about the same 12 minutes.
The running time from Ditmars to 57th St is 18 minutes according to the schedule. Add another 2-3 minutes to get from 57th to Times Sq. This makes the total time from LGA to Times Sq to 32 minutes.
The running time from Willets Pt to Times Sq is 28 minutes for the local and 24 minutes for the express, according to the schedule. This makes the total time from LGA to Times Sq 40 minutes via the local and 36 minutes for the express.
So the total time difference between the Willets Pt route and the Astoria route is 4 to 8 minutes and NOT the 20+ minutes you stated.
Well, what's the thing that somebody's building in record time to connect JFK with LGA, and does anybody know exactly HOW it connects with the Subway and WHERE?
Not to mention, can you transfer onto it with a metrocard ;)
Here's the website for Airtrain:
http://portnynj.com/airtrain/
I only glanced at it, but could find nothing about fares, beyond a general statement that revenues are expected to exceed operating costs.
David
From the "Service" section of that page:
Fare Collection
AirTrain fare collection will include use of the MTA MetroCard, so that AirTrain passengers will be able to purchase AirTrain airport access service with the same card they use to ride the subways. On-airport usage will be free.
Kind of a shock to me, actually. Also, I was under the impression that Jamaica to JFK would cost $5 or so.
I doubt they mean unlimited cards. It's still shocking though.
An interagency fare collection deal... I hate to speculate, but it looks like the beginning of a regional fare card.
We already have one. Not only can I use my MetroCard on a private bus, I can even use an unlimited card or a transfer from an NYCT service.
Good point. I never thought I'd see the day the Port Authority would cooperate, though.
The machines at AirTrain can be programmed to subtract any amount from a stored-value Metrocard.
Sure. But even with equal fares we still can't use Metrocard on the Roosevelt Island tram, PATH or HBLRT. Oh well...
Hope springs eternal...
As can any other Metrocard equipment. Likely, there will be fare controls only at the subway connections. (Entry and Exit)
-Hank
Same card doesn't mean same fare.
There is no such thing being built.
There is, however, something being built from JFK to the LIRR at Jamaica Station. It's called Airtrain. When it's finished, you will be able to take it to the E or J/Z at Sutphin Blvd., next to Jamaica Station. There's also a branch being built to the A train at Howard Beach.
It won't go anywhere near LGA.
Thank you for this information, Keystone Pete. I will be voting for his opponent.
N Broadway Line
Astoria
Watch out. I believe his opponent is Peter Vallone's son!
Yes. I think anyone who ran in our district in support of the LGA extension would probably not just lose, but *ahem* be run out of the hood on a rail!
Thanks for your post! Stuff like this is VERY valuable!
What are opponent Peter Vallone Jr's positions on the N extension to LaGuardia? If I had to guess, I suppose he opposes it too.
www.forgotten-ny.com
Like father like son. My point is, I haven't seen any campaign literature from him actually mentioning the issue, but I have yet to read through my voter guide.
Whatever daddy says. Anyone ever see 'The Distinguished Gentleman' with Eddie Murphy? The power of name recognition...
-Hank
Speaking of fathers, mine once gave me this advice round about the time I turned 18: "Unless there's a compelling reason to do the contrary, always vote against the incumbent."
Does anyone know the phone number or e-mail address for GPS Video in Toronto? I purchased their tape, "Boston Trolleys Part 3" up at the IRM and there's a problem with the tape.
TIA.
Try contacting the IRM - perhaps they have a phone number, or would be willing to send you a repalcement tape.
--Mark
Do any of you remember the thread from a little while ago where wrote about the bad summer job boss that never paid me and later ripped off one of my friends? Remember who it was and what their company was when I revealed it (I believe it was Hank Eisenstein who suggested I spill regarding this)?
Anyways, you need to get in touch with my absolutely wonderful (Sarcasam! Sarcasam!) former boss, Ray Neilson, who owns and runs GPS video:
Phone:
416-239-9094
Emails:
rayneilson@hotmail.com
raytv@interlog.com
I recommend telephoning because a live phonecall can't simply be ignored like an email. Good luck!
-Robert King
Over the weekend, I went to a friend's house af few days in a row. I had to take the 6. In three days, I didn't see one redbird. Also, the 2 line seems to be getting more and more R-142s. It's just a matter of time, I guess. :(
There are still at least 4 trains of Redbirds running on the 6 at the moment. You just happened to miss them.
It seems that I have a better chance to see an #4 Redbird than an #6 Redbird.
How time flies!
Chaohwa
4-birds are just uncommon, 6-birds are rare. Pigs told me that he caught a 6-bird today and I saw one back in June.
It used to be the other way around though.
I don't think that Redbirds on the 4 are that uncommon, I've seen them often enough.
I happened to get one today. I just came in and sat down at Union Square, not realizing the significance of the moment until a few seconds later. Once I did, I decide to advance to the railfan window since I knew the oppurtunity would soon be lost and gone, perhaps forever.
The railfan window is great, I used it, in a completely empty car on a Q from 57th to Kings Highway. It took me all these years to finally appreciate that which is fundamental to many other railfans.
Why can't the R-142s and other new cars have left said windows that allow riders to look through the railfan window? All MBTA cars had this when new (in the older red line and orange line cars ATO equipment has been put in blocking the view.).
besides iin about five year the might begin to have redbird fantrips.
God damn, it's not THAT major, cup your hands around your eyes and you got a ghetto railfan window. Just chill!!!
Then again, someone might have a newspaper (or coat, or similar apparatuses) to block the view.
I tell you, Pigs - nothing beats a view from the front on the Brighton Express. It is a singularly beautiful experience. And if you got a Slant, which it sounds like you did, that makes it that much better. Glad you enjoyed your trip on the Slant Q.
wayne
It makes me real glad that I have all this cab video I've taken over the years. Same is true for what I took on the Bronx IRT this summer when all the equipment (Redbirds, R-62s and R-142(A)s were out and about.
The R-40 slants are nothing to sneeze at in the 60th St tunnel, either.
--Mark
We've got to take in the slants on the Brighton next month, preferably starting in Manhattan.
Nothing less than the front of a Slant for you, Steve, the very place of honor. We start at 57th and 7th and proceed directly to Brighton Beach in one shot. Let's hope it is a nice warm fall day.
wayne
I'll second that. Maybe we'll be able to find the spot where the Nassau Loop tracks turned off. I can't remember if that was walled off or not.
You'll have to ride in the rear to see that as they join at a backwards angle. The little stretch of tunnel is illuminated; I DID NOT see if there were any tracks in it.
wayne
It's more or less where the tracks make an S to the right. All you'll see Manhattan-bound is a wall before it turns to the right.
It's never too late to discover it!
--Mark
September 5 marked 34 years since I rode at the railfan window for the very first time, on a prewar D train from Rockefeller Center to 59th St. Then when we got to 59th St., a southbound A train was sitting there, taking on passengers. We needed to take it, but I didn't notice the roofline signs on the R-10s and let it go, being unsure if it was an A or a D. As the last car went by, I saw the end sign and said out loud, "What luck - THAT was an A train!" Over the next month, the pieces of the subway puzzle gradually fell into place: the A had those racy teal and white cars and ran express. Nothing else would do on 8th Ave.
In my commuting days I would always opt for the "F" train over the lazy (and often R-6-x/R-7 infested) "E" train. Not that I had anything against the R-6-x and R-7; it was just that I strongly disliked them when they ran local. They FLEW when they ran on the "F", especially if there was an GE-equipped R-6-2 in the lead. The Slants held full sway on both "E" and "F" back then, and in the summertime I would eagerly seek out the brightly-lit, air-cooled R40A over the dingy, noisy, soot-encrusted regular (non-A/C) Slant R40. (The R40M, which were also air-conditioned, lived over on the "E", occasionally appearing in the "EE" and "GG" and almost never were seen on the "F").
Then there were the R44, before they were neutered. Those cars really moved in the express stretch from 71st Avenue to the Rego Park GTs and later on in the N Blvd Bypass. 65 Street station was usually a blur if you got an R44. The "F" is the line on which I cut my railfan teeth; it gave me a real appreciation for the word "express".
wayne
Just as I cut my railfan teeth on the A and its immortal Thunderbirds.
Pig? Is this really you? Enjoying a ride on a Redbird? At a railfan window?
When do I pass out ?? the ""pig"" going to the railfan window !!! OHHH......... NNNOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!
We cant beleive it !!! he has RESIGNED from the Transverse-cab-car-company !! All Hell has broken loose !!
PORK THE OTHER WHITE MEAT ( at a railfan window ) ????????? .................LOL .... BIG TIME.......... LOL !!!!!!!!
quick !!!>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>call the police !!!!!!!!!!!!!!
somebody get some watah, this mans on fiya!!!
lol !!
hehehe..............@#@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@lolhee
lol??????????????????????????????????????????
eat me!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!@lol hehehe
All predicted in the Qoran ... 'nuff said.
AMEN
Peace,
ANDEE
dont forget the tora !! ........
Tora? War in Japanese or Torah?
train dude he made his comment an issue on the islam-quran so i threw the tora back at him his religion book ..
like the bible etc.. @ or even better .......the railfan window !!! ........lol !!!
You scare me.
Salaam, he has discovered what we have known all along - that the view from the frontwindow of the redoubtable R40 has no equal.
May he have many more enjoyable rides up and down the Brighton Line.
wayne
yep !!!!!!!...........lol !!
The v train provided a rare view of the 6th ave to 53rd connection, and the queens local track
My ass is still sore from me kicking myself repeatedly for having missed this visual treat. Imagine that, Slants, that close. BOOT! BOOT! BOOT! Ouch! Ouch! Ouch! Please, Sir may I have another?
wayne :o>
you mean your wore out tired & sore feet !!! ........lol !!!
And I'm kicking myself for missing that memorable event 28 years ago tomorrow.:-)
Speaking of railfan windows, I quickly pointed out the slant R-40-sized cab door windows on our LRVs to Anon_e_mouse yesterday. He enjoyed the view immensely.
I happened to get one today. I just came in and sat down at Union Square, not realizing the significance of the moment until a few
seconds later. Once I did, I decide to advance to the railfan window since I knew the oppurtunity would soon be lost and gone,
perhaps forever.
The railfan window is great, I used it, in a completely empty car on a Q from 57th to Kings Highway. It took me all these years to
finally appreciate that which is fundamental to many other railfans.
Salaam I thought you wern't comeing to New York till Next mounth.
That message was copied, with not a single modification, from what I posted.
And you thought he was capable of posting that coherently?
oh come on !! enjoy the railfan window !!! ......lol !!
last two weeks of october first week of 11 03 01 my 5th birthday !!! oh yea i will be there !!!
"last two weeks of october first week of 11 03 01 my 5th birthday !!! oh yea i will be there !!! "
your 5th birthday?
I thought yo were older than that.
wrong dynasoaur breath !! { 50 } .....lol !!!
Well, if I see someone with a camcorder at the railfan window during my visit nect month, I'll know who it is.:-)
Surprise ... it could be ME!
--Mark
oh now we got competition for Mr. southern california transit system (salaamallah). so who makes the best subway videos cause I might be buying one/some soon.
David
Well, I've SEEN Mark's and can personally vouch for them... but I've heard a lot of good things about Salaamallah's as well... I suspect that they're both very good, it depends on which lines you want.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Thank you for the kind words.
--Mark
motorman!! is it safe this late october / first week of november to shoot video on a subway train ? ( railfan window view )
i wanted to come there to celebrate my 50th doing just that :( sigh ) very sad .................
oh now we got competition for Mr. southern california transit system ....
I think it's the other way around. I've been around almost since this web site's inception, and certainly since SubTalk opened, and my taking of videos hasn't been a secret to most people here.
Look here at my list.
Been at it since 1995, after I realized how much more fun it was than just using a still camera.
--Mark
Or Me Three.
That would be cool.
Correction:..Well, if I see someone with a camcorder at the railfan window during my visit next month, I'll know who it is.:-)
october november ....??
October.
Do you want me to call my lawyer and get you for blatant plagiarism?
no ......just keep on a lookin' out the railfan window & enjoy!!!.........lol!!
Don't worry so much. The 7 line is still 100% redbird.
The Redbird experience on the No. 7 line is one not to be missed. The ride at the "railfan window" of an inbound express with the Manhattan skyline looming ever larger is great, as is the enjoyment of standing on the platform at 111th Street around 9 a.m. as the 'birds move in and out of the layup tracks en route to Corona Yard while expresses sail by on the upper level track. These ARE the good old days ...
Try the experience at night, especially from 46th Street "south" .... on a clear night, the NY skyline is beautiful.
--Mark
Any clear day or night is good at 46th Street. That's the station closest to where I live!
Check out this picture:
For those who can't do <tt>iframe</tt>, click <a href="http://rmmarrero.topcities.com/museum/transit_pictures/getimg.html?16/C-10.jpg">here</a>. The real image is located at http://rmmarrero.topcities.com/museum/transit_pictures/16/C-10.jpg, but click on the link before going there directly.
This was taken on my way to an 8:00 class at Queens College. The time is a little after 7:00 on a cold December morning, and a 7 train is entering 46th Street. Light from the sun is being reflected off the buildings in the background.
Hello Redbirds, hello Redbirds, hello Redbirds. After next month I may never get to say that again.
First my goal: Getting from Sheepshed Bay, Brooklyn to Woodhaven Blvd Queens and back
Well, early this morning 7-9 in AM rush, I catch the diamond Q from Sheepshed. I saw at DeKalb an R46 R which left the same time as us, the first four cars were 56xx and the last four were 60xx. We go over the bridge, no sign of anything when we rejoin at Prince. We gain speed and begin to slow BEFORE 8th St. And from 14 to 34 we slowed and stopped before 28th. Clearly a W was in front crossing over. We waited at least 90 seconds to 2 minutes. I didn't think it would take that long. At 57th we make the connection to it. I was thinking of getting of at 34th and taking the F to Roosevelt for a G/R, but decided that the worst that could happen was I would get the R that I saw at DeKalb. I take the W across the platform at 57/7. Question: Do all Qs enter 57/7 on the north side and leave on the south side by relay on the switch above the station or was I lucky it pulled in the right side? Anyway, take the W to Lexington, think about going to Queensboro for a 7 which is running double service for me since both exp and lcl run local. But I get off and wait, another W comes right in 2 minutes later!!! Announcements have something to do with a Queens-bound N or R problem but too blurred. Finally they say N at 57 and my R at 49. So I wait for the R. While waiting, two Rs in a row pass me going the other way, one to Whitehall one to 95. Is this normal??? I get my R and stay on to Whitehall.
Coming back, I get an R to Roosevelt and connect for an F. I take the F figuring I'll get off at 34 for a Q unless there's an R at Queens Plz when we get in. There's a G there. I wanted a guaranteed front window of diamond Q coming home so I got off and waited for the same R I got off and went to 57. I was thinking about having to cross over just in case the Qs don't use the switch north of 57/7, but there's only one Q, a diamond Q on the southbound side. I am the 2nd person in the car and get a front window all the way over the bridge and home. One question: When coming off the bridge and heading for DeKalb we did not go down and come back up again just before the station. We stayed on the track that a Brooklyn bound train stopping at Dekalb from the North side of the bridge would merge into. Is this always the case??? And if so why is the track that goes down and under and back up again there???
Question 1: You were lucky! Q trains leave from both tracks, so must arrive on both also. I don't know if there is a preference for express on one side and local on the other.
Question 2: Yes it's normal for R trains to go to both 95 St and Whitehall. The Whitehall train gets laid up at City Hall yard to await the afternoon rush. Not normal for two Rs to be back to back; ther should have been at least an N or W between them.
Question 3 & 4: Not always, but most of the time, yes. The track that goes down and up, (H3) is usually used to get a train onto the Bypass track. Once on the Bypass, it is committed to the 4th Ave Express
The latest news on the festival can be found in the press releases section of the NJT website.
A quick note regarding the Lackawanna and Wild West Trains: tickets are limited for each, especially for the Lackawanna. The trips are 10:45 am, 12:45 pm and 2:45 pm for the Lackawanna; the first Wild West Train is at 11 am, with three more to follow about every 90 minutes or so.
Hope to see many of you Saturday, rain or shine! (I'm hearing "shine" is more likely, even if it's dull.)
Michael
Mike,
I'm leaning more and more towards the shine :-) See you there after the 207 St. Tour.
...and that's Transit and Weather Together
What was the date of the last run of the R10. What line was that on.
the last run of all painted goh b division cars was on the c
What was the date?
some time in 1989 or 1990 (I dont know)
The R27 and R30 were painted B-division cars and they lsted until 1993.
:-) Andrew
The September 11, 1989 car assignment was the first not to list R-10s, though they may have operated for a few days after that date. At the end, the R-10s ran only in C service. The New York Division of the ERA ran a fantrip with R-10s at the end of October 1989, the last time that R-10s carried passengers.
David
That's right...the last time that any R-10's carried any passengers was on the E.R.A. "farewell" fantrip on Sunday, October 29, 1989.
According to one prior estimate, there were about 250 people riding the special eight-car train (#3018-3203-3182-2974-3143-3045-3145-3216), which travelled on many IND and BMT routes, especially going to and from the Coney Island area twice during the first half of the trip.
The almost ten-hour journey included operating on such lines as the Franklin Avenue Shuttle, the Archer Avenue routes (both levels) and a unscheduled surprise visit to the 63rd Street Line on its first day of revenue service. By the way, prior to the fantrip, these same exact eight R-10 cars were used at the lower level platform of the IND "F" line's Bergen Street station during the production of the thriller motion picture "Jacob's Ladder" starring Tim Robbins, and that train consist appeared in the film released in 1990.
-William A. Padron
I still wonder why that fantrip didn't include an express dash along CPW with the train signed up as an A. It certainly would have been a fitting way to bow out.
I have told this before on an older post, but the 1989 R-10 farewell fantrip did not run on the IND "A" line with passengers, but the train was signed up "A" and "207 Street Manhattan" on car #3216 for photo stops at Crescent Street and Jamaica Center [lower level] on the BMT "J" line. After the train discharged passengers at the end of the trip, the train on car #3216 again was resigned up again to "A" and "207 Street Manhattan" after it left Chambers Street-WTC headed for 207th Street Yard to storage and eventual retirement.
Generally speaking, when the ERA chartered the Green R-10's and Red R-30's for "B" division fantrips between 1986 and 1993, the trip journeys were usually planned and scheduled to cover at least the IND Smith Street-Culver and any BMT Coney Island-based routes at some point. During that period, it was never probably intended to cover the IND lines in Manhattan north of 59th Street-Columbus Circle.
-William A. Padron
IMHO they could have and should have made an exception with the R-10s.
According to my best info, the last Green R-10s ran in passenger service on September 8, 1989.
Cars were 2961, 3008, 3157, 3159, 3168, 3169, 3181 and 3209.
On the C train, at that time from Bedford Park Blvd. to Rockaway Park.
The last of the "Grungified" (un-GOH'd) R-10s were removed from service effective November 10, 1988 as part of the Car Appearance Program initiative.
Regards,
George Chiasson Jr.
(Widecab@aol.com)
In actuality, none of the R-10s ever received a true GOH such as what was done to the Redbirds and R-32s thru R-46s. 110 R-10s were cleaned, fixed up, and painted forest green; however, they pretty much kept the same components. It was a stopgap measure to ensure there were enough cars to maintain service until all of the R-68s were delivered.
I entered 42nd on the Broadway line at 4:55 pm. A W pulled into the station. Immediately, we are informed that "due to a smoke condition ahead of this train, we will be rerouted to 21st Queensbridge". To me, this meant that no trains would be crossing the East River.
I ran for a 7 train to Queens. An express entered Times Square. You would be amazed at how many Queens bound passengers board at Grand Central or 5th, and go back to Times Square just to have a seat. Without waiting one minute, the conductor closed the doors, and we were off to Queens.
Approaching Queensborough Plaza, I noticed from a distance, a Manhattan bound train waiting to enter Queensborough. After leaving Queensborough, we passed that waiting s/b train(a slant 40). I have a feeling he was in for a long wait.
My 7 express caught up to a local at 61st. I got on the local. Then something strange happened. Just as we entered the next local stop, I noticed a SOUTHBOUND 7 ON THE EXPRESS TRACK??????
We got to 74th, and another 7 was passing Southbound on the express track. Then I noticed a 7 sitting in the 74th station on the local track with no passengers. I looked down the tracks and noticed that the Northbound 7 I was on was rerouted local.
The rest of the trip was fine.
I was at Lexington Av and I saw the R46 (R) train sitting there on the Queens-bound track. Apparently, there was a track fire and s smoke condition. The train was not taken out of service, but the power was cut off in the tunnel in front of the train for five to ten minutes. The power on the train was minimal; that is, some of the interior lights were on, and the LED side sign was completely off.
Cleanairbus
hybridbus@aol.com
This is a true story friends and neighbors. Many moons ago, I was at 168/Bway waiting for the downtown 1/9 twins. The station was filling with smoke from an apparent track fire at the entrance of the tunnel on the uptown side. I watched in amazement as two uptown locals came and went, running past the fire. Looked like the arcing from the third rail set some garbage on the track ablaze. The running joke was that a homeless man had set a rat on fire to keep warm. When my train came, there was no announcement or anything. Doors opened, people got off, I got on, bing bong, and away we went.
What has to happen in order for smoke to be
classified as TRACK FIRE??
Mercy be the twins running over that glitz.
Train Dude might chime in here, but we use smoke condition or more properly the 12 code(12-2?) to avoid alarming customers.
Thanks subway-buff... but what conditions
must exist (or be present) for such an incident
to be given "track fire" status...
Would the flame have to be a certain height?
Would the object have to be x number of inches
close to the rail before being given serious attention?
Had me wondering... as Selkirk stated "the motorola
bricks wouldnt raise command"
Schmaybe I was unclear first time up..
Just a fast clarification - the Motorola "bricks" I refer to was the ones that you plugged into a cradle in the cab. First generation of TA radios and the original leaky cable ... there were a LOT of dead spots in the system back then and you never expected the radio to actually work. If it did, it was bonus but you often had to step down and use the phone of there was a problem. Back then you'd roll it through and call it in at the next station.
Most track fires will go out by themselves, often the rush of a train past a track fire will extinguish it. Flames will conduct current, so if the fire's big enough to partially ground out the third rail, command will notice when they have to call for a restore.
thank you.
If it is bad (does not go out by itself) they will suspend service. The tower will not always m,ake announcements but if they do they will say somwething like" due to a smoek condition at blank station, all (name/number) trains will run via the **line. If they decide to call the NYFD, they will use what is called a taxi train. Control will call a train on the radio and tell the crew to "discharge your train. You will be a taxi train." Control will then tell train crews" Attention conductors: pleaseinform your passengers that due to a smoke condition at blank station , here are the temporary serevice changes."They will then give the service changes which may include running on a different route or short turnback or even suspension.[All booths have scanners as do some S/As(like myself) and Station Command will use a special intercom to alert booths in the area.)] Anyway- we would then issue any needed block tickets **if** our station has no service on **any line** in **any direction**
sometimes, if the condition is in our station we might be the first to see the problem or a customer tells us/ We would then use our EBCS to call for assistance. If we call, supervision, NYPD and NYFD will respond and we will need badge number and CN for NYPD and battalio number for NYFD.
If we are outside of the booth- ie gate or MVM duty, we can go to the booth to ask for the fire extinguisher for a solar can (Garbage can) fire and put it out ourselves while the booth calls for help.
As the ranking TA employee we are in charge until a higher ranking person responds such as a supervisor (S/S or TSS), or superintendent. IF it becomes necessary to close a station the decision is made by supervision or police which will assist in evcauation.A six page memo has been issued detailing procedures. The booth will remain open unless instructed by supervison who will then instruct us where we should stand (ie- a stairway at street level near the booth.)
All escalators will be stopped or reversed by supervison if needed and all elevators would be put into service-opearetd by supervision if needed. On "Complex Stations" (ie- Times Square) supervision would determine if the entire complex needs to be closed or just one area. Police response would eb absed on time of day and station size/complexity.
Hope this helps.
Many "track fires" are very short-lived. Once the paper cup has finished burning, it's done. I saw many track fires in my days, never saw anything worth calling in. Then again, back in those days, the Motorola bricks rarely raised command anyway.
Like, I actually saw the fire from where I was standing.
Like, you didn't comprehend the querie.
Back in 1978 or 1979, I got off at 28th St. from a southbound 1 train and saw smoke pouring out of a trash can at the southern end of the station. I mean, it was THICK. The train went merrily on its way and everyone acted as if there was nothing out of the ordinary.
Double braking if you manage to hit a SMOKE signal. :)
Same thing back in '96 at Chambers Street BMT, the n/b platform. One of those big square trash receptacles was smoking to beat the band; trains were going in and out of the station while people were running up the stairs choking as they went; I got out of the station and went over to the Lex Ave line.
wayne
It's not uncommon to see garbage can fires in Flushing and most people act as if nothing is wrong.
>>It's not uncommon to see garbage can fires in Flushing and most people act as if nothing is wrong.<<
You must be from the suburbs.... Or the, um, 'nice' parts of the city.
In my neighborhood, we don't set cans on fire, we set trash on fire, and toss it around parks where kids play.
You would be amazed at how many Queens bound passengers board at Grand Central or 5th, and go back to Times Square just to have a seat.
I was one of those passengers you saw yesterday.
The platform, as well as the passageway from the Lex lines at Grand Central, was completely jammed. It was obvious that there was a problem somewhere in the system with people choosing different routes home. Now I know it was a problem on the Broadway BMT.
I don't think the pattern of back-tracking you witnessed from us is a usual occurrance. In my case, I would have had to wait a couple of trains before being able to board. Most likely, I would have ridden the train on which I back-tracked to Times Square anyway. Knowing that it was rush-hour, I decided it would be easier and more comfortable to get on the train and ride the additional three stops than wait among the throngs at 42nd Street, and, yes, I got a seat. I knew the turnaround time at TSQ would be miniscule. There was no loss of travel time in my case.
My trip began with an attempt to ride the E/F through the 53rd St. tube, but the platform at Lex was dangerously crowded. I knew there must be some kind of problem somewhere, so I turned around immediately, went back up the escalator, and transferred to the downtown 6 to G.C. to catch the 7. I often do this if the plat at 53rd/Lex is too crowded.
It's great to have so many options to get to Queens.
i just got back the roll of film that i was shooting early last week... i was riding the new newark cars doing my best to concentrate and create an electromagnetic wave pulse that would disable the system... instead i got a bad headache, however the car in front of mine broke down for about 25 minutes... the train operator tried to figure how we could go around the disabled train... eventually we got to the last stop, where they had the troubled car on the outside track... i went to call doug in brooklyn to tell him the good news about how the newark subway was running... i reached him, but he said he didn't know anyone named heypaul...
a couple of minutes later, i returned to the platform and saw that they coupled this trackmobile truck to car 1001 ( i think ) and pulled it out to the scrapyards in jersey city..
trackmobile comes to the rescue
Aw ... that little loco is CUTE ... looks like just the thing to haul the trash up and down the hill here where I live. All I need is track.
This was a rarity. That LRV could have gone out under its own power, but we had begun de-energizing the catenary through that area so the contractor could bring in a crane to remove the Franklin Avenue loop. Thus, the (diesel) trackmobile.
And leave it to the amateurs to get the fuzzy shot... ;-)
Michael
that's an interesting explanation mike...
the word on the street is that njt has ordered enough trackmobiles so that each of the lrv's can have one attached up front as back-up motive power...
it should be noted that they sure were in a hurry to get the loop out of there, so that there would be no turning back...
LOL ... but reading between the lines something to ponder. some of here have missed you more then other.
btw, you got the wrong dougie because he had gone north. got home at midnight, but of the three of us only this one had to got to work today.
p.s. i two enjoyed the photo ... that mike just doesn't understand how inportant it was to us ... thaks for sharing.
Mr t__:^)
Mike,
While everyone is busy busting your chops, I wish that "Try-Transit"
day will be a big sucess, and you can dwell on your accomplishments.
I'll be taking the ride on the HBLR, and maybe jaunt down to Newark
to try out the Newark cars, also.
Chuck Greene
That's Bloomfield in that direction. IIRC, the number of the car that died ended in 13.
Say, Paul, does this ring a bell?
Newark LRVs in and out of service
Newark PCCs
It's a damn good thing most of us aren't that far into HTML. It made me dizzy just looking at it.
TOTALLY, TOTALLY WRONG!
Now, this is more like it:
Newark LRVs in and out of service
Newark PCCs
1. What are those two bulidings in the backround?
2. why is there one big grade crossing light?
Buildings getting built, and the crossings are for people dumb enough not to look both ways.
Where is there ONE big crossing light? I see two sets of two.
It's under the look both ways sign.
I don't see a signal of any kind *under* the look both ways sign.
Correct me it is *above* the sign.
Above the sign is 2 lights, it's just that one is lit.
Peace,
ANDEE
. why is there one big grade crossing light?
1) Where was this photo shot?
2) What do you mean by "one big grade crossing light"? I see four of them, and more on the other side. Please be clear in your statement.
: )
Railfan Pete.
"one big grade crossing light"
I think that he is referring to the left light on the rear stanchion.
The visor or shade seems to be missing which does seem to make the lens itself larger!
Sometimes it is common to see a train with a mixed consist of all
three types of Silverliners (IIs, IIIs and IVs) on SEPTA's Regional
Rail lines. Can anyone tell me why the push-pull cars were not made
to be compatible with the Silverliners? Where instead of the cars
being powered by a locomotive (AEM-7, etc.), the Silverliners could
serve as the "locomotive", since they are self powered. Also, how
come the push-pull trains only run on certain lines? I still have
yet to see push-pull trains on the R2 (Wilmington/Marcus Hook),
which is my line. Also, does anyone know where I can view photos of
the original interiors of the Budd Silverliner IIs? I was told once
that they were much different than they are now. At least they had
different seats.
In normal commuter rail use in North America, MU trains, such as SEPTA's the Silverliner II/III/IV cars, are never mixed with locomotives or loco-hauled coaches except in an extreme emergency. MU cars have different trainline, braking, and signal characteristics than push-pull coaches. The SEPTA Bombardier push-pulls can be hauled by either a diesel or electric loco, but are never mixed as trailers with MU cars. While I realize that SEPTA never runs diesel locos in revenue service, NJ Transit has a common fleet of similar Bombardier push-pull coaches that can operate coupled to either diesel or electric locos.
SEPTA tried running diesel locos, but their Republic Locomotive engines were too underpowered to meet timetable requirements. They are now used to provide HEP to Bombardier coaches on RDG FP7-powered charter trips, such as the one Sept 8 from 30th Street (9 AM) and Paoli (9:30) to Strasburg and return.
At one time they had some of NJT's U34CHs. One was even repainted.
Thanks for the memory jog. I photographed a U34CH at Fern Rock station prior to being informed by SEPTA security that photography on SEPTA property was verboten. I subsequently rode one of the trains that diverged from the RDG track, went past the TastyKake plant, over the Schuylkill River and into 30th Street Station.
I believe the U34's were just borrowed in a swap arrangement that sent a handful of SEPTA's AEM7's to NJT for the duration. The AEM's would have seen limited service since Railworks had many MU's sidelined and there were sufficient electric cars to make the remaining runs on the ex-Pennsy side. If I recall correctly, the U34's were painted in the same dark blue scheme as the SEPTA RL1's, although at least one of the U-boats ran in the NJT scheme for a couple of weeks before it was redecorated.
Also, I believe there was one R2 and one R5 run that was made, inbound in the AM and outbound in the PM, and they ran out of the lower level of 30th St.
Didn't (and possibly still) South Shore have some trailer cars it used in MU train consists? Or were/are these just blind motors?
try the R7 Trenton-Fox Chase line. They have some old Silverliners. I rode on on my first, second, and third trips to Philly. I rode #278. It has the old setas. The 200-300 series has the old seats; the 100s have the newer seats, I think...
Cleanairbus
hybridbus@aol.com
Tsk-tsk-tsk....
The R7 goes to Chestnut Hill East, not Fox Chase.
Yes, I'm being nitpicky because I like to get on people's nerves:)
It's an easy mistake to make, though, because on Sundays, one train sometimes runs the R7 and R8 routes in turn, and they often leave the R7 sign in the window the whole time, so it is possible to see trains on the Fox Chase line marked as R7.
Mark
There's an R-7 at about 5PM (Trenton) weekdays that's Reading half is the R-6 Norristown. It always leaves with the R-6 boards showing.
They should always leave the first stop with the boards for their ultimate destination showing. The designation never matters for the inbound portion of the ride, only the Center City and Outbound part.
MUs can't run with trailers. In addition to having incompatible systems, MUs can not be expected pull that much dead weight and still be able to accelerate at a decent rate.
The R2 Warminster has at least one push-pull (sometime around 5 PM Market East), the R5 ParksburgThorndale has many, and the R7 Trenton has one (4:45 PM Market East).
Today, the 5:06 Market East had the old silverliners, three cars of 200 series and two cars of 9000 series (porthole storm door windows). There was a bathroom in car 222. This train at this interval is not a regular occurence, as many people boarding had reactions similar to "what the hell is this?" and "these seats suck!" Septa has removed the ability for the seats to reverse, so there was no longer a justifyable reason for the lousy seating. The doors are manual, so they leave them open between stations just like MNRR with their ACMUs and NJT with their Hoboken div. trains.
Some push-pulls were to run on R3 West Trenton but were pulled off and, to the best of my knowledge, not returned.
222 is a S III. Some of the III's (if not all) were equipped with restrooms and were used in service on the Phila-Harrisburg line in the early days of SEPTA operation (I recall riding them several times in this service in the early 70's).
The II's can also be found on some early R8 Chestnut Hill inbounds in the AM and on the R6 runs.
Well last time I rode a SEPTA RR train was in 1996, and I remember the interior being shabby-looking. The window panels were brown and the seats were ketchup and mustard (red and yellow), but the seatbacks were half the height of the NJT seats.
So I guess they've been given a rehab since then?
A rehab is underway. A lot of the cars have new made-over interiors with really nice gray fabric seats, and gray and maroon wall treatment. But the work is far from done and a lot of SEPTA's regional rail cars still have the sick ketchup-and-mustard interiors.
There's a night-and-day difference between the old and the new and I can't wait until the whole fleet is rehabed.
Mark
When I was going to Philly on June 23. I got a R7 Silverliner with Gray Seats.
There are also a few cars, usually found on the R1 airport train, that have lower-backed seats done in gray velour with rainbow patterns. I'm not sure how many there are, or why they are different.
Mark
OOOO!!! I got to see that!
What cars were assigned to the C line in the summer of 1991.
C line car assignment as of May 1, 1991:
136 R-30, 40 R-32, 16 R-38
David
Hey do you have other records of car assignments from history?
I have many of them, but they're not all in one place and I don't have time to go looking through piles of piles. Sorry...
David
What activities do you suppose the MTA, Transit Museum, etc. will sponsor during the subway centennial in 2004?
Carl M.
Celebrate restoration of full service to the Manny B?
Celebrate that the MTA management has kept the subway in "state of good repair" for 100 years. Not always keeping everyone happy though!
Amen to that! :0)
The MTA has not been in existence for 100 years, and the subway was certainly not in good repair in the 70's and 80's.
... I was gonna say that...
Clean it:)
They're gonna make and sell a set of three little posters, similar to the ones I have hanging on my wall right now.
Unvale plans to construct a monorail to Staten Island....8-)
Karl, Wrong time of year for a serious reply ... too much stress with all those cars on the highways, extra folks in the trains & kids on the streets in the AM.
Mr t__:^)
Thruston and everyone else:
I'm planning to be there for the New York City subway centennial. I hope that they roll out the IRT Low-Vs once again since I want to ride them once again.
#3 West End Jeff, formerly BMTJeff
I don't see why they can't roll out the Lo-Vs, the D-Types, the Standards, the World's Fair car (not the Red Bird), and some arch roofs. They could even borrow some classics from some area museums, i.e. I know where there are a couple of Hi-Vs that could operate (with a little TLC first).
Mr t__:^)
I do know about the IRT High-Vs also. I think that there is a High-V at the Branford trolley museum in Branford, Cinnecticut and there is another IRT High-V in Maine. Do you know about any other IRT High-Vs that might also still be in existence?
#3 West End Jeff
AFAIK those are the only two. It would be nice to bring them both down and run them as a set, but I understand Seashore's 3352 needs a lot of work.
God willing, I will be on hand on 10/27/04 no matter what they have planned.
Seashore's Gibbs Hi-V needs a little work to operate, & the outside is in fine shape, the big task for them is the inside, however I wouldn't mind sitting on a folding chair :-)
Mr t
Thurston,
If you are talking about the Hi-V at Branford, that needs a lot more than just TLC.
Same with our 3352 at Seashore :-(
She runs well; so what if you can see the ground through the floor. Heh, sounds like my car :).
Nothing that couldn't be fixed with some black linoleum. Whoops, gave away another TA secret. :)
That and some duct tape.:-)
Mike is right, as a matter of fact she'll be taking folks for a ride the week-end of Sept. 29 & 30th.
The problem she has is a lot of metal rust/rot ... so we keep her indoors now & only run her on a sunny day :-)
BTW, she was part of a 3 car train (Hi-V, R-9, Lo-V) last "Autumn in NY" at Branford. The R-9 didn't mind being the meat in the sandwich.
Mr t
I dont like to ask this question again but nobody responed to me, but seriously I need to know what was the IRT Car Assignment especially the 42 Street Shuttle like around the General Overhaul during like 1982 to early-late 1991? anyone please, thanks
Amin, from what I remember, there were still R-17's or some such on the Shuttle until late 1987. Then, the R-62's ran on the Shuttle since then. Pretty much, the R-17-26 cars were retired by '87. The R-12 and 15 cars were gone in '83. I remember that because the 2 and 3 trains switched Brooklyn terminals upon the arrival of the R-62's. The R-12-14's and '15's by the 1970's and '80's only ran on the West Side IRT lines, but for a brief period about 1982, some also ran on the 5 occasionally. And you know, those trains were noisy, LOUD, graffitti written all over the place--but they were FAST!!!!!! Tony
Thanks Tony. One more question if you could answer did those R17 that were running on 42 Street Shuttle were the Redbirds R17? right because I heard that they were also on the #7 line around 1985-86 then the shuttle & I think the last run for those R17 Redbirds was the #5 line in early 1988? other than 6688. please answer me if I am right.
Amin: Those R-17's on the Shuttle were not red when they retired!! And, I don't recall ever seeing them on the #7 either. The VERY LAST R-17's I can remember WERE on the #5 Thru Expresses, but they were usually sparse--usually the last car--and that was in early 1988!!
Tony
A group of R-17s including 6688 were painted Redbird red and filled in for the R-33 singles on the 7 while they went through GOH.
His obit copied-and-pasted from Trains Magazine's newspage:
Trains.com News Wire — September 5, 2001
David H. Cope, charter member of NRHS, dies at 87
David H. Cope, 87, a charter member of the National Railway Historical Society, died August 17 at the Masonic Home in Elizabethtown, Pa. He served as president of the Philadelphia Chapter in the late 1940s.
Cope worked for the Pennsylvania Railroad from 1936 to 1942, served overseas in the Coast Guard during World War II, and had a career in lift-truck sales before retiring in 1980. His color photos of eastern Pennsylvania railroading in the 1940s and 1950s have been widely published.
I met Dave at a railfan gathering in a private home outside Downingtown, PA, about 25 years ago. The group met at the Coatsville station (I took the Paoli Local from Radnor to Paoli and the Philly-to-Harrisburg silverliner to Coatsville) to watch the Broadway Limited go past, then motorcaded to the host's house. Dave drove a pickup truck that had a whistle taken from an MP54 (with permission) at Paoli yard when the MP54's were being retired. He had an air compressor and storage tank, and created quite a stir whenever he blew the whistle.
When the subject of the PRSL came up during the railfan session, the host's 11-year-old son asked Dave if he were familiar with the record "Whistles to the Jersey Shore". Dave regaled us with fascinating tales of schlepping his battery-powered reel-to-reel tape recorder in his '51 Ford and recording the sounds of PRSL steam engines in the early 1950's. The record was made from these recordings.
He presented an interesting slide show and displayed scratch-built models of WJ&S (PRR) wooden electric cars that had plied the Camden-Newfield-Atlantic City electrified route.
R.I.P.
I've been reading most of the post here on the subject,but it still boggles the mind that so many people would say ''over my dead body'' to a much needed subway connection.Can some of you gentlemen PLEASE explain this type of thinking,[especialy you ASTORIA natives].
I'll tell you why some of the businesses are against it.
At Ditmars, which is the last stop, store owners benefit greatly from the incredible amount of foot traffic created by the N. Should N service expand to the airport, with one or two stops between Ditmars and LGA, people may get off one or two stops after Ditmars, thus lowering foot traffic and revenues.
As for the residents, they are afraid that the passing trains will shake their homes, create noise, and all the other wonderful things that come with an elevated line.
Couldn't the line be built like other new ''EL'S ?
Construction of a new El in NY will utilize modern technology - my guess is a T-Bent design, built-in noise baffles in place, improved trackbed. You can see some of that on the J line east of 121 St station. The ride's quieter and smoother. The size of the El structure will be smaller and its shape more elegant. It will take up less room on the ground.
I have been an advocate for this type of "el" to replace the section of el on the Jamaica line, to remove those curves that prohibit the use of 75ft cars. to add the center 3/4 track to the Jamaica "el"
We've been down this road before....
avid
I suppose the TA could consider the kind of comprehensive renovation that SEPTA's Market-Franford line in West Philly is getting. Replace the existing El with a T-Bent, and new ADA-compliant stations. No NIMBY issues, because, if anything, it would improve the bridge profile and make it a better neighbor, so to speak.
The project would also take many years, due to the need to maintain train service at the same time. Some single-tracking would be needed at times.
What "need to maintain train service at the same time"? They could replace the trains with buses temporarily. They could start the demolition right away and begin construction of the replacement right after they finish the Second Avenue Subway.
Rim shot?
It worked for the Third Avenue El. :-)
At the N extension hearings a couple of years ago the MTA showed slides of "modern el" construction in other cities in the U.S., in an attempt to prove that an el built today would be less intrusive than the old els all over NYC. The largely NIMBY audience rejected the photographic evidence and told the MTA (I'm paraphrasing), "We see the big ugly els that are here in New York and we know that's what you're going to build."
And how many people in the audience have a vested interest in the status quo and would spout any nonsense, knowing full well it isn't true.
New York is as full of people as anywhere else who think nothing of being dishonest with themselves and others to serve what they perceive as their own interests, or to protect prejudices.
How about all of the SubTalkers move into the houses along the El, we would be happy to reside there I would think!
Nah, you can have it, as much as I love the subway living next to an el would be too damn noisy to suit me.
eace,
ANDEE
I wouldn't mind.
I use to live by the Far Rockaway el, and it was WONDERFUL! I just love the way a train sounds when it passes through. The screeching, and how the wheels rolls over the connecting rails.. Just spectacular! I remember waking up earlier in the morning to the sounds of wonderful beautiful trains noises going through my neighborhood.
But I lived in a 18 floor highriser, and the el wasn't as close as the El's I see in Brooklyn and the Bronx which are almost touching these buildings. I'm just wondering how these people deal with el's running through their neighborhood?
By the way, does anyone live close to an EL?
Anyway, I think the El's are fabulous, but if they are too noisy, how do people manage? I know the J line use to be a pretty noisy line to ride in Brooklyn. This was back in 1983/1985.. I can only imagine how horrible it was if I live right next to the El.
To give you a written experience of what these sounds were like, since I'm not able to, because this is a message board, not a voice chatroom. In certain sections, the train use to bang the rails and then go into regular train sounds. It was so bad, that you couldn't help but noice the slight change of sounds.
Just picture someone living or working under those type of conditions.. Would you tolerate that? Especially if you didn't tolerate it before?
Lets be frank, those el's can be noisy... But people honking their horns (which is very common too) are just as harmful. I prefer the latter, because the noise isn't as sudden. It's the suddeness of the noise that bothers me, not noise from an el. Plus, the suddeness of the noise can cause a person to go into shock if they are not careful.
Just an opinion.
N Broadway Line
Astoria
Even the old els can be fixed rather easily. I'm not talking of a re-routing or curve elimination, so speed restrictions wouldn't change.
But you could start at one end of the el and work your way to the other, and encase the risers in sound-profed concrete, likewise the runners and cross members, right up to the track level, then above the track level, upto the platform level sound profing materials to deaden the truck sounds.
Further improvements would replace the wooden ties with concrete, resting on rubberized pads both above and below each tie. Finally, when new equipment is put on the line, sound dampened wheels sets and trucks can be specified.
There is no reason why, existing els could not be so upgraded, with minmal disturbance to either highway or rail traffic.
Elias
You are correct.
I think weight would be an issue, as would 'dead load'.
-Hank
I'll tell you why some of the businesses are against it.
At Ditmars, which is the last stop, store owners benefit greatly from the incredible amount of foot traffic created by the N. Should N service expand to the airport, with one or two stops between Ditmars and LGA, people may get off one or two stops after Ditmars, thus lowering foot traffic and revenues.
How many stops are being planned between Ditmars and LGA? Could you give their location(s)?
Are there any stops planned between Ditmars and LGA? Maybe that's part of the problem...
I thought there weren't going to be any stops north of Ditmars, at least not in Astoria.
The objections are not over loss of foot traffic at Ditmars, the argument is that extending the el northward over blocks that currently have no el will ruin them and destroy Astoria as a result.
Horrible, isn't it? Are we ready for the Mass Suicide and self-immolations which will happen when the sky falls?
:0)
Well, if we're going to ruin those two blocks anyway, maybe we could interest the federal government in putting a nuclear waste dump there. After those two blocks are completely destroyed by the El, what further damage could be done to them?
What? Nuclear waste dumps are for sissies. Make it an underground testing site for nuclear warheads! That would at least equal the destruction an elevated train would cause!
The blasts would drown out the noise and the vibration, and everyone would be happy!
Mark
it's reather simple:
Ditmars, right around the subway station, is the commercial hub of that area. businesses there fear they would lose out on some pedistrain traffic if the line went further north (and had a stop at say, 20th av)
then you got all the people who live on the residental street it would go down: a sizable portion of which have lived there their long periods of time. There is no benefit to them to have a noisey, somewhat unsightly el in front of their houses. It would also negatively affect the property value of anyone who's unlucky enough to own a house on that street. they say they can build an el that won't be noisey, but would YOU trust the mta to achieve such a goal? they make promises like that all the time when they know they can't hold it up (just last night on ch.7 news there was a story of one of them new 'noiseless' power generators on staten island, that's keeping everyone up at night it's so loud. asking anyone to trust a politician is like asking them to trust a car salesman...)
not to mention the N seems pretty close to capacity out here anyways.
Thus i ask you this: why the hell would the want an el there? there's no incentive for the community to have it. factor in the proximity of Rikers Island and Con Ed, the strip clubs in queens plaza, with the prostitutes and drug addicts they attract, and you've got all the ingrediants one might ask for to let someone indulge in the 'we're dumped on' game. (I don't feel that way, mind you, but you can see how such things might annoy folks)
the smart, long sighted thing for the city to do here would be this: build a connection of 63rd st. tube. run it north on 21st. throw in a few stops along the way, turn east around 20th av, perhaps even inside con ed's facility, go into lga. run a connection of the g up from 21st. van alst to the new connection with the 63rd st. line - connecting to both the airport & tunnel to manhattan.
here's what you get in return: G riders able to get directly into the city. a subway from either 6th or 7th av to lga. more service along the entire brooklyn/queens waterfront, creating more development, jobs, tax base, etc. they're already building high rise towers in LIC and want to do the same in brooklyn - anyone from brooklyn could get straight to the airport without going to manhattan via a new route on the G, and that vastly underutilized line can finally see some real use. want a 'super express' to the airport? connect off the lower level of 63rd to the airport. (the lower level, of course, is going to LIRR to connect to GCT). picture that: a 10, 20 minute ride on an express train from grand central straight to laguardia. as part of the LIRR 63rd. connection, a larger station could be built at sunnyside - serving the N,W,7,E,F,G,R,& V , plus amtrak, LIRR, NJT and metro north (if they ever get to go down amtrak's west side connection into penn station). this would be a prime transport hub for downtown LIC, which was recently rezoned for high-rise commercial and residental use. an entire new *&^%$#$@ downtown could pop up here, withint NYC, instead of in jersey city, or some other city for that matter. Nimbys? what can they complain about? the temporary inconvience of tunnel building on 21st. street? heavy construction to connect the lines around QP & 21st? (that area is industrial except for the housing projects across the street - they don't own the buildings so they'd have to live with it). the new line would take some riders from the old N as well, adding capacity to an area that could use it.
yes, it'd cost a whole lot of money. i don't even want to know the price tag. but it makes sense for the neighborhood and the entire city on a whole, where as an extended el makes no sense for the neighborhood and sells the city short. instead of an opprutunity to develop an entire waterfront and provide a top notch one seat express run from gct to lga, you get an extra stop or 2 on the n. what do you want? a cupcake or an entire cake? (I know, i know, we can't afford the entire cake... but that sorta thinking never gets you even halfway to a goal)
obviously, I rather see something a bit grander, and dare i say greater, for the city on a whole than what has been proposed to date.
I ain't got shit else to say about this.
New Page 1
This sounds like a good idea, except, how would the G line get from Court Square to 21st Street. I was able to view a map of the whole area on Yahoo and the way it looks, it would be impossible. There are too many streets that blocks this as a possibility.
Plus, wouldn't the new line along 21st Street result in the abandonment of the N elevated line? Please understand that the N is the only line that connects to the #7 line. Not unless the N line is scale down to only Queensboro Plaza.
If the abandonment of the N line does occur, what will be the impact on the Businesses in the area? Will they simply accept the alternative (21 Street Subway)?
Furthermore, did you ever bother to think what would happened to the funds for building the Second Avenue Manhattan subway?
As good as your plan sounds, it wouldn't hold water, because their isn't a necessary need for it. First, you have the N elevated line which serves a definitive purpose. And lastly, I don't think the people are going to favor it when they have more pressing issues that they are dealing with, like building the Second Avenue Line.
N Broadway Line
Astora
I've said it before, I'll say it again. The best way is to put the N underground beween Astoria Blvd, & Ditmars. This strech is an industrial area with few homes. Then build a new ADA-compliant Ditmars tsation undergound, with the added benfit that it'll be closer to the bus stop at Ditmars. Continue it underground to 20th Ave, thus avoiding an el by the houses there. The bring it back above ground through the industrial wasteland beween there and the airport.
astoria blvd & ditmars? have you rode that stretch? it's pretty damn residental. at least 50% so... perhaps a steep hill between astoria blvd and the next avenue might work?
You've accurately stated the perceptions and objections of the NIMBYs - but not necessarily the consensus opinion of Astoria residents - let's not confuse the two. They are not necessarily the same.
There's a point at which MTA bashing becomes unsupported b------t, and this business about their competence in building Els is an example of that. Given appropriate funding and time, MTA hardware works as well as anything in the world, and a new El would, in the end, work out just fine. Were the El to go up, housing values would remain stable, climbing, in fact, closer to stations. But you reported the NIMBY BS as it is (and I give a nod to Peter Rosa's political acumen here) But NIMBYs have no incentive to be honest with themselves or anyone else.
Having said that, I do favor other plans over the N extension. It doesn't serve East Elmhurst well, which needs more subway service; nor does it serve other parts of Queens well. It won't offer anyone in the Broadway-Queens Blvd corridor good access.
I submitted a request to consider a branch of the Steinway Street line (G,R currently) north and east into East Elmhurst and then the airport. Peter Vallone wrote back supporting it, and sent an inquiry to MTA about it. Others on this site have suggested a branch off the 63rd St tunnel, which I like also. The MTA has a number of other interesting options listed, which offer pluses and minuses. We'll see what happens. Stephen Baumann claims, without credible evidence, that these options have been ruled out; budget-wise, because the city has the money set aside for it, the N extension is the front-runner.
If it is built, people in Astoria will vent, have more verbal diarrhea, bitch and moan some more - and then they'll get over it, and be the first ones riding the line to the airport...
Were the El to go up, housing values would remain stable, climbing, in fact, closer to stations.
Land Values would climb about a block from the el, but on the street the el is on, you'd have a slight dip in land values. I don't care if there's mass transit or not, no one wants to live and SLEEP next to trains.
I submitted a request to consider a branch of the Steinway Street line (G,R currently) north and east into East Elmhurst and then the airport.
Others on this site have suggested a branch off the 63rd St tunnel, which I like also.
Unfortunately, neither of these plans would help the Queens Blvd. corridor much.
The plan you submitted is a pretty good plan. But, that would just add more trains and passengers onto the line, possibly drawing some of them off the 7.
The other plan which you mention (the one about the subtalkers suggestion) might relieve Queens Blvd. But, it also would cost lots of money (the second av subway is much more important), and it also means that you would basically be replacing the Astoria el with subway. That would cost tens of billions more than extending the present el.
Unfortunately, neither of these plans would help the Queens Blvd. corridor much.
----------------------------------------------------------------
Why would the Queens Blvd corridor need any help? As a daily passenger on that route, I can honestly tell you everything is just perfect out here.
"Land Values would climb about a block from the el, but on the street the el is on, you'd have a slight dip in land values. I don't care if there's mass transit or not, no one wants to live and SLEEP next to trains."
Wrong. You're repeating an urban myth with no support. Land values stay quite stable along transit lines, with increases, sometimes substantial, seen around stations. Proof: Atlanta MARTA, Miami Metrorail, Washington Metrorail, and, so far, AirTrain.
As far as sleeping next to a train, have you any experience with trains other than New York, Boston and Chicago (the systems with noisy, old-style Els)? I've slept like a baby only yards from Miami's Metrorail. You can barely hear it.
In as far as other subway plans, a tunnel from Steinway Street would create the opportunity for easy transfer from all local Queens Blvd. services. It would not be a one seat ride, but if one station were reconfigured to an island platform, you could have a same-platform transfer for airport-bound travellers. Not perfect, but pretty good. Unfortunately, it would be very expensive to carry out.
One thing I don't understand is people are so willing to put highway above ground on an el but are unwilling to put rail lines on an el. Putting highway below ground offers benefits in pollution control that are not available on above ground lines. Putting rail lines bellow ground offers no such benefit.
I'll take your word for it on pollution control.
Putting rail below ground creates a ROW for travel which leaves the surface street pattern undisturbed. It also puts infrastructure out of sight.
One thing I don't understand is people are so willing to put highway above ground on an el
They aren't, any more. If you proposed an elevated expressway through Astoria I'm sure they'll complain too. =)
They might indeed be able to build a nice el in time, but how long might it take? how about the noise and disruptions to life during that time? would they modernize the rest of the line? perhaps make it a bit more like the queens blvd. portion of the 7 in sunnyside (which is pretty attractive and quiet)? who would actually be held accountable if things took longer, cost more, and caused larger disruptions than anticipated? I don't honestly blame the nimbys for getting upset. no one wants to deal with any potiental disruption to their lives that can be avoided. most folks got enough bs to deal with day to day...
I went to medical school in Philly. PennDOT started building the Vine Expressway right under my bedroom window when I went to my first class; they "cut the ribbon" not long before I graduated. People joked that we should get an MD with a minor concentration in civil engineering!
There was some inconvenience. Broad Street (nearly as wide as Queens Blvd by some measures) was a construction pit. Detours. A lot of dump trucks. A lot of backup horns. But all of us pulled through - businesses did fine, except for a McDonald's that was operated subpar anyway. In the end, we got a street you could cross without being run over.
MTA does need to learn the lesson the PA did. First of all, communicate with the neighbors. Secondly, don't arbitrarily expand the area of construction. Nothing would happen to anybody living near the existing El - at worst, a weekend or two of intersection closure while a guideway was erected over it. The PA did that several times along the Van Wyck with no ill effects. Third, do pile driving only during the day and only at set hours. That's most of the inconvenience right there. Finish pile driving, and 90% of the neighborhood complaints disappear. Lastly, set up a hotline or a local office where people can vent.
As to the rest of the NIMBYs? Well, whining about construction is just that, most of the time. Whining. Sniveling by crybabies. It happens, and they'll get over it. The sky is not falling. In New York it never does.
setting to and sticking to a time for the construction would absolutely do wonders. they put a new pipe down my quiet, boring street a few weeks back, and outside of having to hose away a whole lotta dirt outside the house, it wasn't even noticable. They left notices every day the water would be shut off, and the hours of which that would occur. they usually had it running again an hour or 2 before the stated time.
years ago though, i lived on a street where a huge water pipe went in - i swear it must have taken them 3 years to finish the job - they dug a huge trench, miles long (eliminating hundreds of parking spots), left it there a few months, dropped a pipe in one week, left that there for a few more weeks, then finally came back to fill it in. of course, there was no one person to be found that might be held accountable for this complete disregard for the neighbors.
more of them contracts with incentives to finish early should be the norm.
it's all about how they sell it, and how they carry out the job. It could be done, but not unless they explain all the details that get the nimbys pantys in a bunch.
Is it at all possible for me to get "Transit Transit" out here at Hofstra, and if so, when? We get Cablevision here, if that helps.
They're doing something about the Stilwell Renovations that I'd like to see.
are the episodes available on tape?
Only if you tape them yourself.
I think you can find it on WLIW Ch 21 (public television) Saturday afternoon... used to be on at 3:30 not sure if that's still the time.
No, but it's on WNYE channel 25. Same time as you mentioned.
Check the MTA Webpage:
http://www.mta.nyc.ny.us/nyct/trantran/showsch.htm
for channels and times.
Does anyone have an idea, why was the middle track on that line built at all? It doesn't look like it could be used for revenue service, especially the Bronx portion. I could see Van Cortlandt traind taking the express track up to 137th St., when locals terminating there (perhaps a good idea?) but it's still quite convoluted.
Arti
It was built for (and *USED*) for peak direction express service. Imagine closing up at VCP, announcement, "next stop Dyckman St, watch the closing doors") ... then skip stop to 181, 168, 137, 125 and then 96. Used to run peak direction back in the 50's and 60's ... and long before as well.
Check out any redbird rollsigns for routes, and you'll see "#1 B'WAY THRU EXP" on there ... that was it ...
So they crossed over to the local track to make stops, why no island plats?
Arti
There's a fork just north of dyckman street as she goes into the tunnel. On the steelwork, there's three tracks, in the tunnel two. The M track has NO stops on the el so it was a straight run down (or up) track M to the Dyckman St station. From there, it was run up behind the local ahead and crawl. Does that sorta explain it? Never was any island stops on the el though ... center track got use for years after that as layup.
I suppose they never put a center track bewteen 145th and Dyckman because of the diffculty of tunneling through the bedrock.
I'd have to guess that the cost to do so would have been insane. That's some serious deep schist in that area. :)
Deep schist -- good one.
Broadway Thru Exp ran Exp as far as 157th St then it ran local in the 50s
After that they switched to truning some trains at 137th, then came skip stop, i.e. the #9.
Mr t__:^)
Thurston: Good to see you back on. I wondered what happened to you. Yes, I wear that Mets hat you got me all the time despite their season. I really like it. Thanks again.
Fred, You'll see me typically for a post or two in the early AM. Been here right along, just haven't had too much time to do more then lurk.
BTW, the next time I see you I'll be checking to see that you have worn out that hat ... am doing the same to my "Subway Series" one.
P.S. Are the hairs on the back of your neck standing up ? Stef, Doug & I were talking about you at Branford on Wednesday.
Mr t__:^)
Thurston: It depends on what was said. Anyway, you and Doug have met me and have formed your own opinions. I'm sure Stef knows by now that I don't have horns. I wonder, though, if he kill filed me as subwaysurf did. They didn't like what I said about the Bronx. Maybe some day I'll meet Stef and we can iron out our differences, whatever they may be. Subwaysurf? That will be a little harder.
The Mets have actually been winning some games of late (stop the presses!). They might even finish above .500. Yogi was right: it ain't over until it's over.
Day and Night that is all he wore, Met hats and shirts, except one day his N T Shirt I got him, and his Cyclone T Shirt he got in Coney island
More trains in the 50's (plus track shifts at 96th) would make sense that they were bunched by 157th. I didn't start going downtown on weekdays until the end of the 60's so I have no real idea of what they did in the 50's other than seeing them blow by on the el. Amazingly, the trains were 90 seconds apart once upon a time and it worked. And they don't switch tracks at 96th and haven't for a LONG time since. Wonder what the excuse is these days. :)
Isn't the excuse that they had to lengthen the red signal behind trains from one block to two?
Yeah, I guess 55 years of safe operation was just toying with Darwin. Makes you wonder how the subways survived through the 1950's with motormen carrying whiskey flasks, having a beer or two with lunch at the corner bar near the terminal and so many other unsafe ways of doing things and somehow we all survived. But we're safer now. Should be able to run more trains now I would guess. :)
Yeah, if you could speed 'em up just a bit.
The third track on the Broadway line between 96th St and 145th St was apparently an afterthought. I've seen photos (perhaps in the facsimile edition of the IRT book from 1904, I'm not sure) of the tunnel portal at 135th St and Broadway, with the east side wall being moved further east in order to make room for the third track.
Bob Sklar
Wouldn't be surprised. Since it's all steel work from the Dyckman portal to VCP, it was easy triple tracking THAT ... the tunnle though from 135 to Dyckman is truly an impressive piece of work and must have been a nightmare to build.
Why was this ( 1 ) BWAY THRU EXP service discontinued?
I don't know for sure, though by the time the trains got down to 137th, they were hopelessly bunched anyway ... but I was thinking over what I had mentioned and the center track service was discontinued in the 1950's somewhere. The latter version of the B'Way THRU EXP ran on the local track and was a skipstop service similar to what they're doing today with that "9" thingy ...
Someone answered this earlier this year here but I don't remember what the reason was or the precise time they did away with the service.
Got me wondering why it was done away with...
...whereas the 5 line still has it's peak-direction
BRONX THRU service...
and THAT is quite a nifty trot..
Because the 5 Thru Exp is a Express all the way to Brooklyn, hense the 1 would be a local south of 96th St, and the saving would not be much, thjat is why the skip stop with 1/9 is in place
That answers my querie.
Thank You Bob, Mark & KevinTMO
Recall that until the late 50s (I think, could have been the 60s), IRT West Side expresses and locals used to switch at 96th Street causing bottlenecks. Before that time, Broadway Expresses used to run to van Cortlandt Park. That would have made the thuu-express viable. To eliminate the bottlenack, the locals run to Van Cortlandt park and expresses to Lenox and White Plains Road.
After the switcheroo, there wasn't a need for it.
--Mark
I don't think even TRAIN DUDE can explain how the TA arrives at decisions. But now you know why, even though I lived at 230th St just off Broadway, I'd walk down to 211th and take the A train.
228th just off Broadway here, pal.
Cheers!
Even closer! Who needs the 100 bus? :)
Dig that bus-to-subway transfer...
(if only we had THAT in the 80's).
Even closer! Who needs the 100 bus? :)
You mean the Bx20?
Dunno where the busses have gone over the last 30 years, but the 20 was the Kingsbridge Road bus whereas the 100 ran down Broadway to 207th St along the the 10 ... your mileage may vary, but them was the routes back then ... 20 was Fordham/Kingsbridge Rd while the 10 and 100 went into Madhatter ...
People along Bdwy who don t want to walk the stairs to the trains, same for any other bus lines where the subway runs, mainly any Lexington, Bdwy, 6th 7th and 8th Ave Lines, etc.
Never thought of that angle - for me and most of the other folks in the hood who went for the A train, it was the agonizingly long ride on the #1, making every stop betwixt there and Timbuktu ...
In 1984, on the same day that the West Farms Depot closed and the Walnut Depot opened, almost all of the Bronx busses were given new numbers.
The old Bx20 is now the Bx9. The old Bx10 is now the Bx7. As for the M100, it ends at 220th Street now. The route from 207th to 254th is the Bx20. I believe these routes were split in 1990.
I have a list, I'll put it on a website in the near future. I already have Brooklyn.
Thanks for the update - I was gone from the city ten years prior so wasn't around for the great confusatorium ... ah well, got to leave in a time when you knew what went where because it always did. Let you concentrate on more pressing matters. Time trudges on, I guess. :)
Hey, why not? You had the immortal Thundering Herd on the A then. Got you to midtown pronto.
Yeah, but I'd get mighty honked off when we got to sit outside 125th for 20 minutes often ... kinda blew the advantage ...
They use it for G.O.s such as "Beonx Boudn trains runs Express from Dyckman to 242".
My question is why was it originally built like that, with no sensible way to run express service.
Arti
If anyone you remember there were 2 Broadway-7th Ave lines later the 1, The 2 was an Exp and the 3 Local. They used to cross over at 96th, this was eliminatedin the late 50s because of traffic jams. The Bdwy local terminated at 137 to South Ferry and the Exp ran 242-New Lots, with rush hour thru expresses. This was terminated when the change was made to the current 3 lines on Bdwy(there was no 9 then)
The current service pattern, which replaced the old one you correctly described, went into effect in February 1959. It was part of total rehab of the IRT West Side line that included extending all local station platforms to handle ten cars, elimination of train crossovers at 96th St, and replacement of Low-V cars with R22 cars. After Feb 1959 all local trains continued along Broadway to 242d (there were some short turns to 137 and Dyckman as well). The higher speed of the new cars resulted in a running time between 242 and Chambers St that was only one minute longer on the new local service compared to the old express 242 t0 96/switch to local service pattern.
I am almost certain the track was built for deadheads and not regular service. It wasn't until the Dual Contracts that center express tracks were built with island platforms to serve them.
The better question, if you ask me, is why they built a center track from 96th to 145th and from Dyckman north but only two tracks between 145th and Dyckman.
The express runs from Dyckman to 242nd and from 96th to 145th aren't so long when you compare them to the IND run from Columbus Circle to 125th Street or the old Sea Beach express run from 4th Avenue to Coney Island.
When I grew up north of Dyckman, the colloquial rumor was that the mouth of the tunnel at Dyckman St was originally part of an old fort used as underground munitions storage by George Washington during the Revolutionary War. Dunno if it's true or not, but that's what I remember being told by many. When the IRT built, it was deep bore through that section and VERY expensive. Two tracks worth was more than enough expense and that's the reason why as I heard.
As I listen to KGO-810am which signal does drift down here every night I have heard this possibility of a BART walkout-strike !!!
My understanding is that all of the BART employees are the highest paid of any transit system in the usa !!! So why are they goin'
on strike ?? beats me folks!! ( oh well ) no railfan window cars there anyway !! ...........lol!!
As I listen to KGO-810am which signal does drift down here every night I have heard this possibility of a SF walkout-strike !!!
My understanding is that all of the SF employees are the highest paid of any transit system in the usa !!! So why are they goin'
on strike ?? beats me folks!! ( oh well ) no railfan window cars there anyway !! ...........lol!!
What's the reason for the strike?
I think the crews are demanding railfan windows. :)
The 'topes are moving to Albuquerque.
They'll play whatever I tell them to, because I'm the MAYOR OF ALBUQUERQUE.
Will this affect Muni as well?
D'OH!
I'd just thought I'd report that R-142 Cars 6656-60 and 6676-80 are on the road for testing. 6656-60 were delivered sometime in 8/2001, even though I didn't see the car delivery.
-Stef
So I guest that the R142's still get deliveres even if no one see them. How insterting!
Robert
One note on the R 142A's I seen 7498 delivered on a flatbed passing 242 St-BWAY on route to 239 YD.
Sounds like they're getting Cars 7496-7500 together. Are those cars delivered with their trucks on them, or do the trucks get shipped separately?
-Stef
The trucks come with the cars. Otherwise they wouldn't be able to get them onto the track at 239th.
It looked like it had the trucks.
On each line A through Z can anyone give me the car assignments per each line? Thanks
It is mentioned that R-29s 8714 and 15 were on the barge taken out of 207th Street. I can confirm that they are still on the property and still in service, as I spotted them laid up at East 180th Street Yard, more than an hour ago.
-Stef
27 Cars were barged today. All of them were GEs formerly at Concourse, all of them R26/R28s. 7874/5 7828/9 7756/7 7764/5 7940/1 7858/9. 6 WH R29s are used for horses, mainline and 6/WF R36s are left in the yard. 7777/6 8707/6, 8778/9 (Utica Av Collision cars) are on the deadline waiting for stripping. 7935/4 is being stipped and will be on the next Freedom Floatilla. Another transfer is expected tonight or tomorrow.
Are those the Utica Avenue collision cars from 1981?
If I read your post correctly those are #8778-8779.
Also, you wouldn't happen to have the number of the R21 that was involved in that crash, would you?
thanks in advance,
wayne
He may have just solved the age old question. Engine Brake? Help us out on this one......
-Stef
I have an old newspaper clipping from the Times showing evacuations from 8778, it didn't show 8779 in it and back then when the R26-28 cars had couplers on the #2 ends, anything goes. It is also possible that 8778 was in a consist of a passing train that lost power when the rails grounded as the picutre didn't show the portal position clearly. There was a picture of the wrecked R22 in Livonia Barn next to an R14. The funeral for the deceased motorman, Jessie Cole was held in a funeral parlor under the el, where horns were sounded from passing trains. I have the articles saved in a box during my last move, I have to search for it. Back then, White Plains ran GE R22s, GE R21s were running Woodlawn. Before overhaul, R26-R33s were split between Westinghouse and GE, so scrutinize the GE cars. Finally, 7776/7 are in for stripping with 7934/5.
I'll be working in a booth along the Lenox Line tomorrow, so I hope to catch the transfer. If I do, I'll report back findings.
-Stef
Hmmmm,
7757, I have its number plate in my collection.
7875 - that's one of the cars with the R21/R22 storm door. Sorry to see that one go.
wayne
Wonder how much that storm door would fetch on ebay.
I'm taking a ride on the Cape May ferry probably Wednesday this week.
Any chance I'll see Redbirds being dumped?
Chuck Greene
Correction - Wednesday,next week - approx 09/12/01 is the Cape May Ferry ride.
Chuck Greene
The next Redbird Belly Flop Competition, I presume?:-)
Maybe I'll stand on the ferry with scorecards, like 10, 9, 8 etc.
to judge the best belly flop as the Redbirds descend to their watery
grave.
Chuck Greene
Not really sure. I thought maybe they'd be getting dumped every Tuesday, but go out and investigate anyway. If there is anything to report, be sure to tell us here.
Regards,
Stef
If I see any , I'll take photos, but I don't have a digital camera or a scanner, so it won't help you guys. Sorry!
Thanks, Stef, I enjoy your posts. I'm going to Hoboken tommorrow.
Chuck Greene
I was out there the last week of August .... nothing to report, I'm afraid :(
Perhaps you'll have better luck.
--Mark
Hi Mark:
Good luck at the trolley show. Sell lots of tapes!!!
I'll be in Hoboken Saturday.
Chuck Greene
Now when the Manny Bridge reopens, can anyone give me an idea on what lines will be getting what? Now lets say that the lines will be the way it is now plus the B and D back to the way it was and the W operating from Ditmars Blvd to Bay Pkwy on the West End line during Rush Hours only both ways and the M operating via Brighton Beach as a supplement to D and Q service, also on rush hours. Using the Q on Brighton Local and D on Brighton Express. Note: no route changes on my plan saying that is what the TA is doing now.
The planning for full Manhattan Bridge service (2004) has not yet been done. Therefore, nobody can say with any certainty what will be running where.
David
The PA updated its website in preparation for AirTrain operations Sept 30.
The price from Penn Station is $11. BUT: if you're willing to transfer, you can travel from New York City to the Newark airport for $8.50 by using PATH, then transferring to a New Jersey Transit train.
Sounds kind of steep. Here in Chicago one can travel to O'Hare or Midway on the L for $1.50.
-- Ed Sachs
But in Chicago you are still in one city and using local subway, in Newark regular commutter rail and 2 states
Considering that a bus to Newark from Port Authority costs about $11.00 (admittedly, round-trip), it's actually a pretty good deal since the bus can get backed up in the Lincoln Tunnel. To me, the big issue at this time is access to NJ Transit at Penn Station - until a major construction project is finished next year, NJT's platforms exit only to 8th Avenue. The chokepoint is horrendous, constituting a major design flaw in this version of Penn. But next year they'll finish a $55 million upgrade, with in essence a whole new station carved out at the 7th Avenue side.
In the meantime if you're planning to use the NJT/Airtrain combination, pad in a few extra minutes just to get down to the platform level - especially if you're leaving at rush hour. Note also that each platform has only one elevator.
As for Path: do _not_ count on using the WTC station if you have heavy luggage that won't fit on an escalator (or, god forbid, you use a wheelchair). It takes an act of God (and a cooperative security guard) to find the elevator to take you into the Path station from the WTC. On a two-week trip to Spain last year, I thought a smart, cheap move would be to take the Path to Newark and a taxi the rest of the way - what a comedy! The security guard not only has to get the elevator for you, but because of post-1993 bombing panic, he or she must accompany you the whole way. One you're on the station level, you're actually in a warren-like back office area and will need assistance just finding your way to the platforms.
I think the construction project now underway at Path/WTC will ultimately resolve this problem, but IIRC that's a four-year undertaking. In the meantime, the only NYC Path station that seems to be fully ADA/elevator accessible is at 33rd Street, which means you might as well go to Penn Station. For three dollars more, you'll get a much faster trip, with only one transfer (to the Airtrain) rather than two (Journal Square + Airtrain).
Actually, I misspoke. If you take Path from 33rd, you have _three_ transfers, not two: Journal Square, Newark (to NJTransit) and Airtrain. There's talk of extending the Path to the new Newark Airport station, but that's a lot of years in the future. In the meantime, you have to take a single-station hop on NJT from Newark Penn to Newark Airport.
Considering that a bus to Newark from Port Authority costs about $11.00 (admittedly, round-trip)
Is that so? Last time I took the bus it was $11 one way. There's also a direct bus from the WTC to the Newark Airport terminals, so both Midtown and Downtown effective have one-seat bus rides to EWR. However, the bus does sometimes get stuck in tunnel and/or airport traffic.
It takes an act of God (and a cooperative security guard) to find the elevator to take you into the Path station from the WTC.
Well the security guards are required to let you in and escort you through the PATH elevator entrance, as long as you have a legitimate reason for using the elevator. Laziness is probably not a legitimate reason, but luggage, strollers, or bicycles are. I once brought my bike onto the WTC-Hoboken PATH train, and, as you described, the route to get from the WTC concourse level to the PATH platforms is ... um, circuitous.
Of course, if you have enough luggage to justify using elevators in the PATH station, you probably have enough luggage to make the PATH and NJT rides quite inconvenient, since there's no room for luggage on either and both get very full during peak hours.
I take it that's why PATH is rebuilding the station - to eliminate those kins of problems.
The elevator is actually the same elevator for the WTC parking levels, which means it goes right into the lobby of WTC. This means you need a Tenant ID card or something that will make escalator use unsafe to get you in the elevator. They don't want anyone to carry a bomb into the elevator and blow up the tower now do they?
Yes, true. It's a partly commuter train-based service, and includes commuter train pricing.
Can you imagine private industry starting a new service enterprise this way?
No advertising to speak of.
No special introductory rates.
A price level that essentially matches the highest priced competition.
They must be afraid of too many people using it.
Sept 30 is when we start to find out.
I think I saw an ad for AirTrain-Newark at the Port Authority Bus Terminal: Lower level, pasageway between North and South Wings.
How could I have missed it?
I guess I don't hang out in the b** terminal enough.
Continental Airlines the largest user of Newark has had the opening and prices on its web site since June and in its mailing, timetables etc.
I think someone on nyc.transit remarked that it's cheaper to buy a NY Penn - Newark Penn NJT ticket and then a separate Newark Penn - Newark Airport ticket (which includes AirTrain cost), than it is to simply get a NY Penn - Newark Airport ticket.
That's certainly possible.
Assuming that the $8.50 figure in your original post includes $1.50 for the PATH, there's no doubt. NYP to Newark Penn was $3.00 last I looked. I'm sure it is still less than $4.00.
Could this be a clever way to give the locals a dollar off the fare that the tourists pay?
NYP to Newark Penn was $3.00 last I looked. .
It's $2.50 OW and $3.50 Round-trip. It's been like this ever since I've came to realize it. It depends on when you looked up your fare.
NJT has avoided a fare increase recently, although I didn't read the full press release.
Fares to/from NYP to Newark Airport Station is $11.15. Fares/to from Newark Penn to the Airport is $6.65. Fares are based on OW travel, no RTX tickets.
1) Why the BIG difference?
2) When will NJT establish the fares to/from every single station owned by NJT to/from Newark Airport Rail Station?
My home station is Metuchen, and I want to know the fare to Newark Airport from there.
Answers will be greatly appreciated.
: )
Railfan Pete.
Thanks. I guess its been too long since I rode NJT from NYP to Newark and didn't remember the figures as well as I thought.
The only way that this can possibly work is if NJT prevents its machines and agents at NYP and EWR from selling separate tickets for the two parts of the trip between NYP and EWR. As it stands, it's really easy to tell the machine to write a ticket for a remote point of origin.
Those fares are an outrage.
They collected a PFC to build the thing. It's driverless, so how much are the operating costs? They milk the airports in NJ and (especially) NY for profits to subsidize the PATH, since NJ won't.
If the Port Authority hopes that the next Mayor will be less hostile, it might as well not think of charging subway riders an extra $7.00 to ride Airtrain (replacing a free bus, with a free ride from parking a few feet away). They'll be an insurrection.
I'll take an additional $1.50. That's it.
(Maybe they're afraid too many people will ride it).
I'm told the big moneymaker at the airports is parking. The PA's first choice mode to eliminate is transit. It's second choice is airplanes.
Oh, come on. They're just matching the competition.
How will they keep people from buying tickets to Elizabeth and getting off early?
What I'm assuming is that if you don't have a Newark Airport station ticket they won't let you onto the monorail from the rail station, and you can't go anywhere without getting on the monorail.
Because they would be going in the WRONG direction.
Scratch that, I didn't realize what you meant. You would have to buy a ticket to NEWARK as the EWK station is past all the other corridor stations.
DAMIT, I am still thinking in the wrong direction. You are completely right. Good call.
They are installing fare gates (turnstiles) that you will have to insert your train ticket to pass thru (like the PATH Quickcards, I'm assuming, or maybe swipe it like the Metrocard).
So if the ticket is not for the EWR station, it won't let you through.
The new tickets supposedly have a magnetic stripe, like the light rail tickets, although I haven't ridden an NJT commuter train in a while so I can't speak of it firsthand.
Wow, they got that station up and running in record time. Just look at it compared to the Secaucas connection. They have been building that mess for 6 or 7 years. In addition to the monorail (monorail, monorail, monorail) they have constructed a full station, 2 island platforms and a 0 and 5 track between HUNTER and LANE. The 3 big questions are: what trains will stop there, how much time this will tack onto the existing services and what is the cost of riding just the monorail.
I am also wondering if there is a chance the tracks will bend.
Some more observations. As Mr. R32 #3730 pointed out people going S/B can just buy a ticket to Elizabeth. Now northbound just imagine a PACKED, SRO rush-hour train. Now imagine to C/R's trying to punch the tickets of the EWK boarding passengers before it reached Newark Penn and they all make a break for it.
everybody is sleeping on this top news story ?? ....
Uh yeah, it affects nearly all of us out here on the "right" coast 2700 miles from San Francisco.
To David:
Actually, David, it's 2,565 miles from Newark to SF by non-stop flight on an airplane.
BART is going on strike? I was just there with my family several weeks ago when we were coming back from our vacation in L.A. and Grand Canyon. When did this start?
To sallamallah:
Comments and news concerning the BART strike won't affect New Yorkers or people in the tri-state and the NE area, just as if something happened to NJT, or the NYC Subway, LIRR, or Metro-North, the Californians will care just as less as we do, stating the fact that we are 2,500 miles apart from between cities.
By the way, are you typing this from California? or are you in the NE area currently?
: )
Railfan Pete.
First you complain about off topic post then you complain about on topic post. Do you ever do anything other than complain?
GET A LIFE!!!!!!!!
UM, DAND124? IN CASE IF YOU HAVEN'T NOTICED, I WASN'T COMPLAINING AT ALL IN MY POSTING. WHY DON'T YOU GET A LIFE? IF YOU THINK YOU'RE BETTER AND SMARTER THAN I AM, HOW COME I DIDN'T RECEIVE YOUR RESPONSES TO MY QUESTIONS THAT I HAD ABOUT MY RAILFANNING TRIPS??
HAVE YOU ANSWERED ANY ONE? AND DO YOU EVEN KNOW THE ANSWER TO ONE?
ALL OF YOUR SIDE ARGUMENT JUST PROVES YOU'RE AN IDIOTIC SUBTALKER WHO DOESN'T KNOW WHAT HE'S TALKING ABOUT.
"IF YOU THINK YOU'RE BETTER AND SMARTER THAN I AM, HOW COME I
DIDN'T RECEIVE YOUR RESPONSES TO MY QUESTIONS THAT I HAD ABOUT MY RAILFANNING TRIPS??"
What trips are you talking about? You come across as some who want others to think he is an expert and isn't. I don't pretend to be an expert.
I'm not pretending to be an EXPERT. I just want ANSWERS to my questions which I have posted thereupon on THIS SITE.
Currently: NO questions have been answered.
I have a posting up titled: "Railfan report at 5AM at Metuchen during AM rush".
It's hard to find it now, since all other posts have "gobbled it up".
But for a helpful NOTE: I posted it on "Tue, Sep. 4, 9:29AM"
Railfan Pete.
A close friend just returned from Puerto Rico and told me of some problems with the new subway line being constructed in San Juan.
They found 44 concrete support columns defective...similar to the way the airtran to JFK is constructed. Needless to say the schedule is way behind.
Tren Bien Tarde it seems...
¡Es mejor tarde que nunca!
We could compare this to 2nd avenue and instead say that the Tren Urbano will be finished 80 years ahead of schedule...
Michalovic
Indeed.
Sounds like the local cement mixing company did not mix the conrete according to specs. It may not be a design problem.
Maybe they should have called the PA or Perini or Bechtel for technical help...
What provisions are they making in order to run the "57-7th-Queensbridge shuttle? Are they running the "W" into Astoria later than 10P.M.? Are they extending the "S" 6th Ave. Shuttle beyond 10 P.M. as well?
"the 57-7th-Queensbridge shuttle?"
I hadn't heard they were planning to run one. When is this supposed to happen?
It is a GO coming up
57-Queensbridge shuttle?? This was used when the 6th Ave-63rd connection was out and since the F is taking over the 6th-63rd, this shuttle should never come in necessary.
It's running for a midnight GO. At some point, trains leaving Queensbridge will run to 57 & 7 instaed of Bway/Lafayette.
Why not just extend the Q there if it's a midnight G.O.? Then there would be no need for this shuttle.
Perhaps you would have your Q crews arrive at Brighton Beach too late to make their next trip. Furthermore, now SubTalkers will have more ammunition (rightfully so) to complian about improper signs.
And the R40s will choke and die faster in a few years with more leaks.
We need one additional ticket for Saturday's shop tour. I should have obtained four rather than three. Anybody out there know how an additional ticket can be obtained? Please advise. Thanks.
I don't know the answer to your question, but I am looking for one ticket for Saturday's tour. Does anyone know if I can pay "at the door"? Thanks.
David Ross (NYDERA) has previously posted that a FEW tickets will be available at the door. You might want to search back for his posts, find his email address, and drop him a line to confirm availability.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I've checked the posts but no email address :-(
Thanks Anon_e_mouse
Paul
heypaul and I will be scalping tickets at old Pathmark near there. Price $10----Subtalkers $100---8-)
Peace,
ANDEE
andee... remind them
CASH ONLY... PAYABLE IN TWENTIES
almost forgot
TRANSIT TRANSIT FANS--$250
...and don't forget This Old House fans $1000
Peace,
ANDEE
Notice to those who think they are going to just walk in with out paying ... the Red Birds need a little more ballast.
Mr t__:^)
Non-payers can join the cast of a new sci-fi show, "Voyage to the Bottom of the Subway."
Hey Ron, a good one ... just having a little fun here !
Mr t__:^)
Would you accept a shopping bag full of 10's or a stack of 50's about 3 inches high?
Paul
Only if bound with thick elastic bands, I presume.
In non-sequential bills, of course.
Paul
I send a money order last week for this weekend tour but haven't received the ticket yet. If I don't receive the ticket this Friday, would I still be admiited if purchased another ticket at the shop?
Thanks,
Paul
Anyone who paid but hasn't received a ticket, or anyone who wants to "pay at the door," should just show up Saturday morning at the appointed place and time.
David Ross
Director
New York Division
Electric Railroaders' Association, Incorporated
Thanks, David. We have three in our possession and will need but one at the door. See you there.
1 for "at the door" please..
1SF9
Thanks David.
Paul
click here
I wish to say to everyone who responded to my post about my physical condition thank you very much for your support because it isn't always easy for me to deal with my minor cleft palate and its effects. However I manage to do quite well in spite of my condition.
I also wanted to mention that I bought a scanner for my computer and I have already scanned two pictures that I took of the IRT Low-Vs when they were sitting at the Grand Central station end of the 42nd Street shuttle back on October 27th 1994 and in one of the pictures "Bill Newkirk" is sitting in the car.
#3 West End Jeff, formerly BMTJeff
Folks, you won't believe this. According to the Sept. 5 edition of the Roanoke Times, saltwater fishermen are urging the state of Virginia to turn older NYC subway cars into artificial reefs to attract game fish.
By sinking the cars into the Atlantic Ocean off the coast, anglers claim they will make perfect homes for moss, bryzoans, mussels, and eventually their prime consumers, the fish. In fact, Delaware has already several of them in the past month, including car nos. 7870 and 9515, which were pictured in the article. A total of 400 cars are to be dumped by the state throughout their program.
Interestingly, this has all been approved by the EPA despite the fact that each car is innsulated with asbestos. For that reason, New Jersey declined the use of the cars. However, since asbestos is only hazardous when breathed in the air, as proven by WWII shipwrecks which have not harmed marine creatures over the years.
The cars look to be older R-1s; let me know your thoughts on this issue. Any comments are welcome, especially from rail enthusiasts.
-F.
I think the cars that have been sunk are redbirds
Read the archives! There has been a lot of debate about this here, but essentially they are correct:
Sunken structures will become homes for a wide variety of wildlife.
Asbestos is not an underwater hazard. Fish don’t breathe it. The NJ reaction was hysteria brought upon by a few uninformed individuals.
John
I hope Charlie the Tuna is a IRT buff !!!
Bill "Newkirk"
"But Charlie...Starkist doesn't want tunas with good taste! Starkist wants RAILFAN WINDOWS!!"
RIM SHOT!!
Double rim shot!!
LOL!
-F.
Charlie the Tuna isn’t likely to see the Redbirds. They’re only in 80' of water. You need to go further out to deeper waters to find the tuna!
John
Sorry, Charlie.
-F.
#7870 is a 1959 model R28; #9545 (not 9515) is a Mainline R36 circa 1963. Most of the cars that were sunk were of the R26/R28 variety with a sprinkling of other types (R29, R33, R33WF) thrown in.
wayne
Gotcha. Have any of the above been preserved? Also, how long do cars usually stay in service? I know DC still has Bredas from 1981. NYC looks to have some older cars still in service.
-F.
>>I know DC still has Bredas from 1981. NYC looks to have some older cars still in service.<<
Try a good part of the fleet. R-44's started arriving in the mid-late 70's if I remeber correctly. Some birds are probably from the '60s.
I imagine that the R-32's won't be retired for sometime now. 50 years of service? Probable
Wow...50 years? It sure would be neat to see buses in regular service that long...in fact, later model Old Looks would just start to be retired. Flxible New Looks, Fishbowls, Grummans, and the like would continue to enjoy service for at least the next 20 years.
I'll bet those R-32s and Redbirds were the same cars that I saw on "Welcome Back, Kotter"; any confirmation or comments on this?
-F.
Well, today I noticed a G/O for the C train. NO TRAINS RUNNING.
It takes place this weekend Sept. 8
Now, the last time this G/O took effect, A trains made all stops on the C line. (except on the CPW, where the B made local stops).
Well, in brooklyn the A makes all local stops, which is okay, because it did this for years. And in washington heights, the A also makes all C train stops.
But, the D train has been relegated to a local this weekend, making C stops on CPW. I guess the D has reached it's all-time 'low'.
The D Train has been on a ALL TIME LOW for years, the (A) and (D) lines are two lines to I try to avoid at all cost due to the sad schedule the two lines keep!
Regards,
Trevor Logan
Hey! watch it!
I don't know what A train you're referring to, but the one I ride runs fairly well during rush hours. (6-8 minutes between trains). Of course, it also helps that I can take the C too (between Chambers and Hoyt).
Now, if you want to know about a sad line on the decline, look no further than the G train.
The (A) sucks, I don't care which way you look at it, I wait 10 minute plus everytime I catch the (A) line and that's including rush hours too!
I have a significant other that lives out on Howard Beach, I do everything in my power to avoid the (A) Line, I take several BUSES to get there and in about 8 out of 10 cases, the buses showed to be quicker!
The G is sad too! But the (A) is king of sad!
Regards,
Trevor Logan
Thats because the T.A made it sad!!!!
It's been sad ever since the R-10s got yanked off it.
Boy oh boy, I know of two guys whose hair is standing on its ends right about now. Bagging on the A train is going to send my friend Steve8AVEXP into fits, while I know buddy Bob is wailing that someone had the temerity to zip his D train. Easu guys, some of us have very fragile personalities when our favorite train is plastered by critics. You ought to know this from your experience of my fulminating whenever someone has the nerve to bag on my Sea Beach.
Amen to that!
If someone wants to bash the A, let 'em. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion.
The A is either very good or very bad. It's never running just right in all of my experiences. If you want something REALLY sad... the former B... before the Manhattan Bridge changes in July.
The B Ran well(before and after the service changes )
>>The (A) sucks, I don't care which way you look at it, I wait 10 minute plus everytime I catch the (A) line and that's including rush hours too!<<
Interesting. I ride the A every single day during the week (schoolyear only, also cutting out holidays, still 181 days) and I have NEVER had to wait more than 8 1/2 minutes for a train, and those are on the bad days (this excludes unforseeable delays).\
Furthermore, I've got ample time to watch A trains go by at Hoyt (waiting for the G...). I caught at Chambers, rode to Hoyt, and then watched as three (not one or two) A trains strode in and out of the station in a matter of 10 minutes. Plus, a C train had to be on the way behind those trains. (note, there was a Rockaway Pk. train in that set). Perhaps you are riding the A train at 8pm, when rush hour is winding down.
>>I have a significant other that lives out on Howard Beach, I do everything in my power to avoid the (A) Line, I take several BUSES to get there and in about 8 out of 10 cases, the buses showed to be quicker!<<
Wow. That sucks. You must be riding the C or something, cuz when I take the A it gets me to places much faster than a bus. How that could happen, I don't know. You must be cursed by the A train gods...
>>The G is sad too! But the (A) is king of sad!<<
I covered this in the above, but let me cover it again:
The G is scheduled to come every 10 minutes during the rush hour. It's usually more like 12 though (3 A's in 10 mins while waiting for a G). And on weekends, it comes every 15-20 minutes.
What's worse, it's being reduced to 4 cars. 6 cars comfortably accomodated G passengers, but with 4, it's going to be another lex line condition...
Wanna talk about sad? The whole broadway express! First, the W is scheduled to come as often as the old B train. So needless to say that it sucks. Then, i'd like to relate my other experience...
I catch a Q exp at Canal. Off we go. We cruise past Prince St. as we approach 8th st, an N train is stopping there. We cruise into 14th and wait for a few secs, because the W is right in front of us. The N arrives. We still leave first. We arrive at 34th, and guess who shows up on the local? That's right, that exact same N train. We get to 42nd. The W just ahead of us is on the local track ahead of the N, so I figure that we'll blow the N train away, right?
WRRRRONGGGG!!! We arrive on the N/B platform. I step off the train and as I start walking up the platform, not 10 secs later that N train is there.
Now, that's sorry. I can't wait 'till the N is a broadway express again...
Anyway, the A train is still the best train in new york, it's certainly faster than the 1/9 (unless your headed to battery park). And, it arrives more frequent than the:
B,C,D,G,J/Z,M,N,and R, plus just as frequent as the Brighton local (Q).
besides, weren't you the one who reported that a "slow-dog" R-44 went 53mph on Fulton express?
Now, that's sorry. I can't wait 'till the N is a broadway express again...
Well if they pop another express onto the already crowded express it'll just make things worse. I do assume however that you wanted to put one train local or completly take it off Broadway. Yes, Broadway is very sad at the moment, and if the N running express will put it in a condition of the current express, then I don't want it express. There have been many times when I didn't catch the express in time and took the local... no difference whatsoever.
Anyway, the A train is still the best train in new york,
My vote goes to the 4. Who cares if it's crowded, at least it's fast.
I'm with you, J -- I can't figure out where Trevor is coming from with his low marks for the A. I also was astonished by the Straphangers' Campaign survey results which rated the A among the worst lines.
I cannot understand this kind of criticism, which is completely at odds with my experience with the A over the last 15 years or so. For my money, the A is the premiere line in the system, at all times of day.
During rush hours, the greatness of the A is most apparant. I have discovered that I save a lot of time going between my home on Jamaica Avenue in Woodhaven and my job in lower Manhattan if I take a bus to the A, as opposed to just taking the J, which is right on my doorstep. The rush hour A is tremendous both ways; it is so good that the concept of "headway" almost doesn't apply. It's just bing-bing-bing, one right after another.
As to middays -- a few years ago, my job demanded that I make afternoon trips every so often between the World Trade Center area and the Yankee Stadium area. The first few times, I took the 4 all the way each direction. Then I discovered that the A/D combination (with a change at 145th St.) was much better. The waits for the A at 145th St. were so short that I felt like I didn't dare try to make it up to the hot dog stand (which I don't believe is there anymore) on my trips downtown. (I would hit the hot dog stand only during my late-night trips through there.)
Even overnights, the A is good. I used to go out with someone who lives in Washington Heights, and I would travel back and forth to and from there at all hours of the night, especially during weekends (hence my late-night experience of munching on hot dogs at 145th St.). Let me tell you -- speaking as someone who has often spent time standing on platforms, seething in frustration at the non-arrival of the F, the J, and other trains, there is no train I would rather be waiting for at 2am than the A.
So, -- as the kids say -- the A rocks. The way I see it, the A is the best way to the Village, the best way to Harlem (thank you, Messrs. Strayhorn and Ellington) and Washington Heights, the best way to the City Hall/WTC area, and the best way to downtown Brooklyn. Oh, yeah -- it is also the best way to the Woodhaven/Ozone Park area of Queens.
You can't beat it.
Ferdinand Cesarano
You're right. When I lived in Riverdale and worked on Wall St., I would never take the 1 --too slow. Took the Bx7 bus to 207th and got the A -- from there, 35 minutes to Fulton, changed to the 4/5 to Wall. Last year when the flooding knocked out MetroNorth from Riverdale, the 1 wasn't running, but the A was.
You guys are talking about Rush Hours in Manhattem but off peak hours mid days the train runs 10 minutes to Rockaway Pkwy, then if you are going to Lefferts or Rockaway(JFK) the wait is 20 minutes
Midday headways are even greater than ten minutes on the combined portion (and greater than twenty minutes past the split).
The Bx7 to the A is faster than the 1 to the 2/3 (at 96th) or the A (at 168th)? That's surprising.
10-15 minutes worth in the late 60's early 70's ... your mileage may vary.
Well in a past post I stated why the (A) is sad:
"The (A) sucks, I don't care which way you look at it, I wait 10 minute plus everytime I catch the (A) line and that's including rush hours too!
I have a significant other that lives out on Howard Beach, I do everything in my power to avoid the (A) Line, I take several BUSES to get there and in about 8 out of 10 cases, the buses showed to be quicker!"
The only time the (A) runs remotely on time is at night and that is skiddish in itself. On four occassions that dammit train was over 5 minute early. What kinda shit is that for night service. At night you could at least run to the schedule as there is limited service as is.
Regards,
Trevor Logan
The night service to Mott Avenue-Far Rockaway is the same as day time service. 20 minutes. Very sad.
Actually, that is sad, but the main line is hardly a, um, "SAD" line, and during the rush, the rockaways get better service than the Lefferts branch.
Yes, better service, 5 trains in peak direction.
This same G.O. was in effect several weekends ago. For CPW, it adds about 8-10 minutes. While it sucks for the 6th Avenue crowd, if I were working this weekend, it certainly would be more convenient to walk to the 8th Ave subway entrance at Penn Station than to walk to the 6th Ave. subway.
As to Trevor Logan's post, the Straphanger's campaign might support his position about the A train which finished 5th from the bottom, ahead of the R, 5, 2 and C lines. However, the D was the highest rated full-time line. Just goes to show you can't please all the people all the time.
I'm sure PITKIN shops do the best they can to keep the [uuh]R44 and R[EWW]38S running.
Hey Dude: I'm almost afraid to ask where the N Sea Beach train finished in the Straphangers campaign of comparison. At least we weren't in the boottom five, which is a consolation. I hope we were higher than sixth. I'm sure someone will tell me.
I guess it's not really old news yet so I'll give you the top 10: Letterman Style.
#10 = 6 train..... #9 = 4 train..... #8 = L train..... #7 = B train..... #6 = 3 train..... #5 = N train..... #4 = 1/9 trains..... #3 = 7 train..... #2 = D (Concourse Brighton) train..... #1 = (parttime Brighton) Q train
My Sea Beach in the top five? Wow!!!!! See, we're pretty good, just like I've always said. But there is a joker in the deck. I think #1Brighton Express Bob will get a big head. No. 1 and 2 is the Q and the D. The D? Are you kidding? Hell, how can an all underground train that terminates at 34th Street and never sees the light of day be second. Or was this before the D was unceremoniously ejected from the Brighton line? Oh well, at least my boy is in the top five.
The survey was printed in the Post on July 11, 2001. The survey was, as I understand it, based on the service from January 2001 through June 2001. That was before the flip went into effect. Since the Q was a part-time line at that time, I am claiming first place for the D line as the best full-time line. Of course, that would also move the N into 4th place.
Now we are in 4th place. The TOP FOUR. Dude, you're great, and you have made my day. I'm wearing my N shirt today in celebration. And don't forget to tell your friend who is the director of the N line that there is a nutty and fanatical Sea Beach fan three thousand miles away who twists and turns with every creak of that line.
Mike already knows about you. I'll show him you post Wednesday AM on the LIRR, when I go back to work (play).......
I guess it is better to:
D - Stop and go (which you get on a train an are constantly stopping in the tunnel)
compare to:
N - Wait and get frustrated (waiting, waiting, and waiting, but when it finally comes, you get where you going at a reasonable time - of course not if the waiting time supercedes the time it takes to get to your destination)
N Broadway Line
Now now ... you of all people should KNOW better, Dude ... the jiggling of numbers is a function of POLITICAL APPOINTEES only. You're working out of title here. Someone's gonna file a grievance for sure. :)
Grievance, eh? Well they will need to get to the back of a loooooong line. Besides, Subtalk is unofficial, isn't it?
Heh. nice to know that you've got OSHA orange paint on the floor going back to the ticket window. I'm proudaya, son ... and as to "unofficial" I regret to inform you that there are SOME people here who take the events of subtalk far more seriously than their own life. :)
What can I say? Didn't make the run upstate, eh?
I'll be motoring up around Walton tomorrow. I opted not to go to Lake George so I could go to Hoboken with a LIRR C/R friend and our wives. Friday night he got some extremely bad news and was not up to going. All was not lost. I rode out to Greenport and got the first 3 signals on my RR operating.
My sympathies ... well, if you do find yourself planning to breeze by Smallbany, there's a pitstop available in lovely Voorheesville if you're in the mood and have the time. We'll be happy to make ya beer and burgers as long as the gas grill ain't frozen, and since I haven't ridden the subways in almost 30 years, no axes to grind. Unless ya wanna chop some wood of course. Heh.
One of these days, I'm hoping to play with my own choochoos. Been that insane up here with software to write. Be nice to have an excuse to kick back for a few hours ...
You can always borrow Heypaul's gas grill.:-)
Heh. No need to borrow, we have one of those elusive "Falcon" gas grills built into the deck ... may be out in the sticks, but it's got all the accountrements including a rather large wet bar ... grotto style, like you used to find in the west village downstairs years ago. The whole place is done in 1970 styling too.
Since I live (and work) here, it's a hell of a nice place.
Fred, you have hit the nail on the head. Customer satisfaction does seem to be related to a line being outdoors on part of its route. I believe this is an important psychological factor.
Not to throw a monkey wrench into the works but here's an example why I really don't put much stock in such surveys. One of the criteria on which the lines are judged is the likelyhood of finding a seat. It the line is so bad that less people ride it, the likelihood of finding a seat goes up and so does the rating. Just a thought!
And the D was near the top of the list? Hmmm. Full disclosure can be a bad thing sometimes. :)
The D earned it's rating despite the fact that seats were at a premium. Much has to do with my counterparts in RTO who all sweat the small stuff. They check announcements, they check uniforms, they make sure bad-order subway cars do get shopped. Quality is a team effort. The managers set out the gameplan and the team, the tain crews, the mechanics and the cleaners execute it. Sometimes it works just like it's drawn in the gameplan.
Well, you know I don't have to play "Sea beach" ... the D was always my home train and nice to know that after 30+ years, the folks who work it still care ... just had to bust your chops though - the lineup of data along with you admitting that numbers can be cooked and then pointing out that the measurement criteria was in need of ... calibration. :)
Back in my day, we measured the quality of the railroad solely on how many "customers" wanted to kick our ass. If you finished a day's tour without cranial indentations from soda cans, spit stains, etc then it was a GOOD day on the railroad. If a few of the geese said nice things, that was the egg cream ... sure the wigs kept their MBDF's and all but those of us on the road knew how we were doing without benefit of Ed Kroch.
IIRC Mayor Linseed (borrowing the term from the old Batman TV series) was still head honchp when you were piloting R-4s on the Concourse Express.
Yep, sure was ... and when he left office, I lost interest in living in "fun city" ... hell of a nice guy, met and shot the sheet with him several times. Of course, as a republican, his own party torpedoed him (so he became a democrat much like Bernie Sanders) and he got the short end of the stick when the national economy went in the toilet. But JVL did more for the betterment of the subways than any other mayor at the time.
Then again, I didn't live in Queens. :)
The balancing factor on the likelihood of finding a seat would be the TA reducing train frequency on that line, to save money, from what I understand the C and the Slow Beach (in Brooklyn) are prime examples. It will be interesting now that my theory (don't know if it's only mine or even if I thought of it first) about the part-outdoors trip can be tested. The theory predicts that your D train rating should go down now that the line is totally underground (until 2004), even though you guys are dedicated to making the D the best. Let's wait and see....
I was in NYC during the weekend of Aug 4-5 and the S/B Dogs were being rerouted to the Concourse express track just north of 167th Street. Then they made all stops from 145th Streets to 59th Street.
Wayne
The most insane, roller coaster subway ride I ever took was about a month ago on the Flushing bound express. It seems some Redbirds are faster than others. This one might have even been malfunctioning, because it was just too fast. Also, I had the railfan windows which I believe raises the speed perseption. I know it was only about 40-45, but it felt like 70, easy! I actually saw some poor elderly riders looking scared. The T/O was good, too. He came into the stations full speed, slamming into the platform before hitting the breaks! And, for some reason the Flushing El sways. What a freakin' ride! I hope I can get a redbird that fast next time.
Nothing has ever reached 70 except the R44 out in the Rockaways during testing burning out it's motors. The old "max speed" for the NYCT was 55. Now it's 40.
The old "max speed" for the NYCT was 55. Now it's 40.
No it isn't. Consider the express dash runs of:
1) The Broadway (R) line from Queens Plaza to Lex. Av. - 60 St. (NOTE: Not vice versa, R trains cannot rack up speed en route to Queens)
2) 53rd St. Tunnels under East River both directions (ESP the Northbound) tracks for E and F trains.
3) The Howard Beach to JFK airport 3.5-mile stretch. (I've never ridden a train through here before, but it's still a long stretch, I don't know if it racks up speed, I hope it does.)
These areas of DASH speeds, reach up to 53-58+ mph, taking into consideration some experiences of our SubTalkers, and my experiences also.
I like fast trains. : )
Railfan Pete.
It is howard beach to broad channel. They do not go as fast as years ago.
Hey, let's not leave out the 4/5 tunnel connecting Manhattan and Brooklyn. I saw a redbird hit 55.
Cranberry Tube, Canarsie Tube (takes a good op to play the GTs), also 4th Avenue exp northbound, and the Brighton Line betw. Newkirk & Kings Hwy, all are dash zones.
wayne
What's Cranberry tube? Can you make a list of all of them?
Some random ones are here...
http://www.nycsubway.org/faq/glossary.html
And a big list here (under "River Crossings"...
http://home.att.net/~alabianca/glossary.html
I rode on an A train from Howard Beach to Broad Channel in July of 1969 which SMOKED. Once we cleared the bridge, the motorman wrapped it and you would have thought there was a Saturn V booster attached to it. That had to be the fastest R-10 ride I ever had.
Would you believe I had an "H" train of Greenbottle R-10s do exactly the same thing going over the Bay - this was near the end, back in 1988. This train, with good old #2974 at the South motor, literally flew over the flats and I thought it was going to shake itself apart. An unforgettable wild ride.
wayne
Yep, those flats really bring out the best. A few years ago I was on an R-44 bound for 207th out of Far Rockaway. Going northbound out of BC, I was really impressed, especially when we hit the concrete structure over the bay just before the bridge. I like the scence of speeding over water. Now, if the MTA would just smoothen the grade on the bridge and make it a fixed structure rather than a draw, the flats would be, hands down, the best run this side of the Mississippi.
What was the decibel level? Did any of the cars have flat spots? That last R-10 C train I took that October was painfully loud.
3) The Howard Beach to JFK airport 3.5-mile stretch. (I've never ridden a train through here before, but it's still a long stretch, I don't know if it racks up speed, I hope it does.)
The only train between Howard Beach and JFK is the AirTrain, which hasn't opened yet. None of us have ridden there yet. And the PA made sure that it can never be part of the subway system.
The only train between Howard Beach and JFK is the AirTrain, which hasn't opened yet. None of us have ridden there yet. And the PA made sure that it can never be part of the subway system.
Sorry. I meant Broad Channel and Howard Beach.
I'm not used to the A line in Brooklyn.
Railfan Pete.
you're not used to much
Peace,
ANDEE
Nor in Queens.
I'm talking about the max speeds off the trains themselves on straight level track. I'm not talking about clocking one heading down some slope or the speed of one flying down the Empire State Building.
hold on hold on. Most Subway cars do better than 40. F of R46s on Queens blvd manhattan bound express can reach at least 45-50. Those 1257s are really screamin! Not to mention the R40 slants on the Brighton Q diamond are not doin no 40!!!
here are places u will find trains doing alot better than 40!!
1. old Q from 34th to W4. that is now out of service so nevermind
2. Any equipment on 4av express bk bound!
3. anything going thru 60 tube. Timers are capable of speed protection of 50mph. But manhattan bound trains reach 54. Queens bound 52. An R32 did 65 on an N.
4. Manhattan bound 2 or 3 express between 96 to chambers. WEEKDAYS ONLY!!!
5. Lex avenue downtown express. 4/5. especially weekends when Timers don't really bug Motormen!!! Also that express stretch between Franklin and Utica
6. even the J has its 45mph moments!!!!
AND BEST OF ALL NUMBER 7!!!
the 7 express going toward queens can hit 47!!!! Manhattan bound 7s only hit 30 somethin because of timers at 74 and bway!!
MTA CAN TRY ALL THEY WANT BUT CERTAIN TRAINS CAN FLY!!!
R142AS EVEN KEEP TRADITION BY SPEEDING ON THE 6 BX EXPRESS!!!
THERE ARE MORE FAST POINTS OF THE SUBWAY I CANNOT MENTION THEM ALL. THESE POINTS CAN CHANGE.
NOT RESPONSIBLE FOR CHICKEN MOTORMEN HITTING BRAKES TOO EARLY TO AVOID SPEEDING!! THIS HAPPENS ALOT THIS IS WHY MOST TRAINS ARE SLOW BECAUSE OF CHICKEN MOTORMEN!
MTA cannot slow all trains down!!!
6. even the J has its 45mph moments!!!!
Where would they be?
Good question.
I've never seen one, not even in the express stretch between Marcy and Myrtle.
I was on an "M" once, it was made up of mixed R-7a and R-9 stock, did that stretch pretty quick, may have been 45 but no more. Bull gears got up to about F# over high C.
wayne
That sounds about right. F# above middle C works out to about 45 mph on those old timers. A-440 means hauling ass, 55 or better as on 1233.
I've never seen one, not even in the express stretch between Marcy and Myrtle.
I was on an "M" once, it was made up of mixed R-7a and R-9 stock, did that stretch pretty quick, may have been 45 but no more. Bull gears got up to about F# over high C.
MAKE THAT "MIDDLE C".
wayne
I was on a R-142A (Actually, the second day of the 30 day test) and it reached 49 mph between Soundview and St. Lawrence. I feel the R142 really KICK ASS between 96th St and Chambers.
For the faint of heart, they would be well advised not to get on a train of R-142s (or anything else for that matter) bet. 72nd and Times Sq. That's about as close as one gets to a ride at Six Flags Great Adventure without actually going there. If they can survive that dash, then they shouldn't think that the run from Penn Station to 14th will be any better. Because I strongly believe that those R-142s are hitting 60-65 on that stretch.
P.S. What was the uptown Lex express like before 59th St. lower level was added, and would that have been a speed test track for the R-142As today, if it didn't exsist?
I'm pleasantly surprised to hear that TA didn't install speed-control mechanisms on the 142s to limit them to 30 MPH or so.
I've been out of the city for most of the summer, so other than an obligatory ride on the "W" and on a Slant-Q over the bridge, I haven't been on the sytem too much lately. I've been on 142s running local on the Lex- never experienced their express run yet.
Unfortunately, there was a timed red at the bottom of the grade at 59th St, but there were NO timers on the long downgrade going from 86 St to 110 St. There was even a double slip switch (part of a crossover) between 103 St and 110 St which the trains would hit at top speed, which must have been at least 55MPH!
So that explains the big gaps in I-beams and holes in the wall in that area.
Yeah those R142's are fast. I rode on an R142 2 train uptown between Chambers and 42nd and that thing just flew.
They already have.
Brooklyn-Bound 4th Ave express- now that's fast! R68's can reach speeds of up to 35 on that section, and R32's go up to 40. Compare to Phila. Broad Street where they go 65-70, or the Market-Franford, where trains get up to 40 between 13th St and 11th St. Now that is a fun ride.
I must agree with you on that one. Becuase if you were to ride on an express train on the Broad St. Subway north btwn. Girard and Erie Ave. station, when then train gets to Susquehanna-Dauphin I've seen the speedometer read btwn 60-70mph depending on the lead car. Car # 551 and 691 are pretty good lead cars. From my experience most of the single-ended cars pretty fast when placed as lead cars. But all in all NYC subways have nothing on SEPTA's Blue and Orange lines, especially gaining speed between stops. Especially stops that are 2-3blocks apart. why is that? Why do NYC subway cars take forever to gain good speed btwn stops? Especially express runs? That's the only thing that puzzles me. maybe some of you subtalkers can shine some light on this subject.
Thanks,
Ms.SEPTA
I have no idea why but I've expressed this before.
BSS runs are incredibly fast on the express and the local runs aren't anything to scoff at either. But the amazing runs are on the El which, as you said, occur even though most stations are only 2-3 blocks apart along most of the route. But as far as said line goes:
1) Bear in mind that NYC subway cars, excpet for the IRT, are much larger and the trains much longer than on the MFL. I don't know if that plays a role, but it makes sense that something small moves faster than something big.
2) Stops are about as far apart as NYC elevated stations on the Frankford portion of the El.
It may also be an issue of capcity. The MFL has only two tracks to work with. If you're a regular rider of the El, I certainly needn't tell you the kind of crowds that occur at the evening rush, but they're handled pretty well, all things considered. Compare that to NYC, where the majority of the lines have at least 4 in-service tracks to work with. I'm sure speed counts, but if absolutely necessary, a train in NYC had to switch from a local to express track, that could happen. Unless you're on the North BSS, that's not an option.
In addition, think of the great distances most NYC Subway trains travel in just a single trip. It once took me an hour and a half to get from Coney Island to Yankee Stadium on the D. It didn't help that the train was comprised of R-68s, but it was running express in Manhattan. It took us about 50 minutes just to get out of Brooklyn.
This is one of the few feathers in SEPTA's cap. I've never heard anyone say a train was too slow.
Timers are capable of speed protection of 50mph. But manhattan bound trains reach 54. Queens bound 52. An R32 did 65 on an N.
"Queens-bound" trains through the 60 St. tube? I don't think so. I was on an R to Roosevelt Av., and we went NO FASTER than 25-30mph from Lex. Av. - 60 St., past the track switch for the elevated N line, (a MYRIAD of tunnel lighting is found here), then we continued at around 25-30mph, the motorman kept slowing down.
Then, just as I thought we were going to rack up speed, the train was going through a NUMBER of left and right curves going around 20mph into Queens Plaza. (This is normal).
4. Manhattan bound 2 or 3 express between 96 to chambers. WEEKDAYS ONLY!!!
Don't forget about the DOWNTOWN Manhattan route on the 7th Av. line! #2 and # trains rack up speed in downtown Manhattan between 34 St. Penn Station and Chambers St. with a stop at 14 St. Also, UPTOWN trains in Downtown Manhattan is fun too. This is effective ALL TIMES. The express tracks are "caved in" at around Canal St. or so.
1) Anyone know why?
5. Lex avenue downtown express. 4/5. especially weekends when Timers don't really bug Motormen!!! Also that express stretch between Franklin and Utica.
Consider the MANHATTAN STRETCH from 14 St. - Union Sq., 42nd St. - Grand Central, 86 St., 125 St., and 149th St. Grand Concourse on the Lexington Av. #4 and #5 lines.
6. even the J has its 45mph moments!!!!
Where can this be found?
Answers will be greatly appreciated!
: )
Railfan Pete.
Also on the Brighton line, between Prospect Park and 7th ave, especially Manhattan bound, that is a very fast straightaway.
"Queens-bound" trains through the 60 St. tube? I don't think so. I was on an R to Roosevelt Av., and we went NO FASTER than 25-30mph from Lex. Av. - 60 St., past the track switch for the elevated N line, (a MYRIAD of tunnel lighting is found here), then we continued at around 25-30mph, the motorman kept slowing down.
Try riding an N (or W). Sometimes they'll reach mid-50's to about 60. I was on a Queens-bound N of slants that did 59, and a Manhattan-bound N of 68A's that did 62 (How do I know? As for the slants, there were holes behind the cab that allowed me to peek in. As for the 68a's, the cab door was open).
and a Manhattan-bound N of 68A's that did 62 (How do I know? As for the slants, there were holes behind the cab that allowed me to peek in. As for the 68a's, the cab door was open).
Wow. And I thought everyone complained about the R68(A)'s not moving anywhere!
: )
Railfan Pete.
[Wow. And I thought everyone complained about the R68(A)'s not moving anywhere!]
That would be the R68's, not R68A's.
I think he means CAN reach. Your milage may vary due to track work, G.O.'s, track occupany, students, and TSS riding probationals.
In road posting the N, the guy breaking me in hit 62 in the tunnel. I have never cracked 51.
The A s/b into 42nd st can get nice near the end 46+. S/B to Broad Channel 45-52.
Old Q, diamond Q coming into Kings Hwy s/b 45+, it's an easy overrun so people take it slow.
63rd drive s/b. Some streches either way between QP and 71st can get over 45.
S/B on the J/M a stop or two after Myrtle there is a sign that says 45, I have never gone past 42 but you could with a decent consist.
Are you a T/O? Cool. What do you think is the fastest train model out there. It has to be from the R-32--R-42 series. The 75 footer FEEL slow. The R-142s/R-142As can MOVE, baby! Take one on the 6 express North between Hunt's Point and Parkchester. You can feel the speed on the A's on the 6 line more than the ones on the 2 line.
I rarely ride the IRT. I think the slants are faster on grades and 38/32s on level track. but it's just fron racing between stations nothing scientific.
I'm talking about the max speeds of the trains. I'm not talking about other factors. The R40 on the Q Express from Kings Highway to Sheepshead Bay is 44 MPH max. I ride it daily and it's never been any faster. The downgrade from Avenue H to Newkirk doesn't count. That's on a pitch and anything will fly down that. The 6 Avenue express run southbound is 48. Then again, it's taking a big slope down from 34 Street, doesn't count. Trains die making it up northbound. You mention 4 Avenue Express brooklyn bound. Why not Queensbound? Again, it's on a slope, hence the timer from way back there. 60 Street Tunnel, that's the most famous slope! And you're going to throw that at me? Of course the train's going to hit 40+ on that. The number 7 Line, funny how you know the speed. Redbirds don't have speedometers!! Do you carry a radar gun with you?
[Redbirds with speedometers]
Maybe he got on one of the few that do. They do exist, you know. Look in the cab at the top of the front window.
At least as recently as 1999, I remember seeing the timers in the 60th Street Tunnel marked for 55 MPH.......
It's too bad the way management slowed the system in the 1990s....
That T/O from the Union Square crash isn't out of prison yet, is he?
Nope, he's still in there. And there's a number of TA and ex-TA employees WAITING for him to get out for all the trouble he's caused for the railroad as a result of his (ahem) "actions." The timers, wheel detectors and other slowdowns are a direct result thereof ...
I'm sure that some of the relatives of the people who were killed or maimed in that crash would like a piece of him, too.
That's why they say, "Don't drink, and drive."
the last decade of the R-21/22s on the Seventh Ave. line always was a treat on the 2/3, since those cars door leafs always seemed to have a little more front/back "play" in their slots, allowing for some really great rattling noises on the express runs between 96th and Chambers.
Joralemon Tubes on the LEX going towards
Borough Hall...
2/3 entering Clark Street..
yeeeeeeeeeeeeessssssssss!!!!
& just think i got this on video !! the mets-yankees world series at nignt on the wonderful #7 flushing line express..( sigh ) !!!
I was on the J and as a regular J line rider, i always wanted to know something. Why do they have the double headed homeballs in certain areas where there are no interlockings? This makes sense?
Is it because if a Motorman hits a red automatic he won't get caught but if he hits a homeball he must request a call on? Is the MTA trying to increase the likelyhood that Motormen get caught?
thats why they got all these Wheel detectors, and the Automatic signals saying NO KEY BY! also timers and all that! What is the MTA saying they cannot trust their own Motormen?
The purpose of the new systems is to protect the surrounds around it. They have places all over with homesignals even where they have no switches. They have single switchs with homesignals at all 4 corners. They protect the switch in case of failure of 1 aspect of the signal system. The whole signal system is for safety purposes. Don't you think a T/O speeding and tripping should be pulled off the road anyway? It's to better find and catch the T/Os who aren't doing so well than let them roam free. Good T/Os with SAT have nothing to worry about. But then again, the Signal system isn't what it was 90+ years ago. Hence the introduction and analysis of CBTC and ATO in New York City.
Aso, they're alarming new sinals being put in (Williamsburg Br. , WestEnd, etc.--alarm is activated when you enter the block circuit before the signal clears, either by overrunning or keying) So that old distinction between hitting homeballs and hittin automatics is fading away.
Sounds like they're prepping the system so that orangutans can operate. Sheesh.
The only two spots that come to mind on the J that have homeballs without corresponding switches are at Parsons/Archer (North end--leading to spur tracks), and on J1 track south of Woodhaven Blvd.
I have absolutely no idea as to why there is a homeball at Woodhaven.
Never mind that prior post. There is no home signal south of Woodhaven.
Where are these home signals? Two possible explanations come
to mind. Either they are where switches used to be but have been
removed, or they are "rear homeballs" which are used as approach
signals to a second homeball further down the track.
The NO KEY BY automatics were put in to solve a specific problem
which may or may not have really been a problem: signals located
so near station stop markers that trains might be standing on the
retaining circuit during their station stop and unintentionally
key by.
It would be very helpful if when you ask a question like this, you provide all of the information on the signal like the signal # on the upper plate and the 'lever' # on the lower plate
In addition to protcting switches, home/interlocking signals also protect relay positions.
I don't think the original poster was actually interested in
receiving an answer, but rather was making a statement in the
form of a question. I say this because several knowledgeable
people offered to provide more information if the specific
signal location could be given, but the poster has not responded
back to this thread.
I entered 5th Ave/60th at 5:30 tonight. I just missed a Queens bound R. Next came an N. Then, an R. I would say that I waited no longer than 4 or 5 minutes for my R train, after just barely missing one.
I boarded an R-32 R. Not very crowded, but there were no seats. I start looking at the seated passengers. Immediately, I determine who is continuing to Queens, and who is getting off at Lexington. I stand in front of a seated lady who to me is obviously an Upper East Sider who is too cheap to take a cab. I'm right. And I have a seat.
My destination is Continental. I decide that I have a seat, have a ton of reading to do, and I'll just relax and enjoy the ride home. Getting home is not as urgent as getting into the city in the morning.
We get to Roosevelt, and the conductor announces that we'll be going express to Continental. He says the "train is late", so we have to go express. More than half the train gets off to wait for a local. Across the platform there is an E dumping his load too. Roosevelt is now packed.
I storm to the middle of the train to find the conductor. I find him talking to a supervisor. Both were middle aged white males. The conductor wore glasses, spoke with an accent, and I've seen him before. The supervisor was an overweight white male, with a white shirt, beige tie, and beige pants. Imagine Norm from Cheers, with light thin hair, and you have this supervisor.
I start by asking them if they worked this past weekend. The conductor responds "yes". I ask him about the delays, and he just sighed to let me know he knew just what I was talking about. He said that he had it rough on Saturday, but it's just another day on the job. Both men agreed with me that the long delays were probably caused by merging all three trains onto one track going into Manhattan. But who really knows? As Traindude suggested, it might have been a switch, or signal problem. Couldn't be that the TA made a mistake that could cause unnecessary congestion.
Now I direct my questioning to the supervisor.
As we are pulling into 67th ave, we slow down. It's almost as if the train is going to make the local stop. Actually, we were catching up to a train ahead of us. Then I ask, "Wouldn't it be more intelligent to send the train express from Roosevelt to Woodhaven, then to Continental"? "If you know that a significant portion of the local train is going to exit at Woodhaven(as stated here many times by so many other subtalkers on the topic WOODHAVEN SHOULD BE AN EXPRESS STOP), as it's the busiest local station between Roosevelt and Continental, would it hurt to delay the train 30 seconds more for the sake of not making other trains late"? "All you're doing is dumping all the local passengers onto the next train, creating more delays. You're not solving the problem". "Additionally, the R going express is only going to catch up to a train at Continental anyway, so why not just make the stop at Woodhaven, get rid of most of those local passengers you're dumping at Roosevelt, and give the train at Continental time to get out of the station"?
In my opinion, sending a local train express should be a compromise. You should accomplish two things:
1. Get the already late train back on time again.
2. Don't dump too many passengers on the next train, or you'll still
have delays.
Stopping at Woodhaven would have accomplished both objectives.
The conductor was in total agreement. The supervisor looked amazed that a passenger stood up like that. Unfortunately, I never even found out if he is the one who ordered the train to go express. I never even asked him. I just hit him with my opinions and observations as a passenger. Two passengers overhead and one had a long smile on her face.
Ok Traindude. Tear me apart.
Ok Traindude. Tear me apart.
Keep in mind that Train Dude is an expert on mechanical areas of the train, not necessarily the business worker or one who commands the T/A what to do.
The T/A by heart (in that area) knows what they're doing, and having Train Dude to answer this situation, is just as good as an experienced yard worker trying to figure something out.
(I have seen Train Dude's posts, very mechanical and interesting. I learned a lot.)
I wonder if he even knows what the best solution is to solve the congestion within the Queens Blvd. lines. The response that Train Dude might give you are just some probabilities of track switches, signals, and relays which can connect a train to Woodhaven, and how a train would run express if it posed such problems.
To me, being a rail yard worker is of a lower "social" class of the T/A than a business worker who is optimistic to think of new projects, create funding for the Capital Program, know how many cars to order, budget planning, sketches, "blueprints" of various Subway Observations, and lots of others which a MECHANIC cannot handle.
(some people find this less amusing, but I'm amused with mechanics too.)
If you're waiting for him to respond to you for a solution, be prepared to take notes of how to fix a central A/C or heating on the train, but don't expect to find any OPTIMISM in his ideas.
I don't blame him for being what he is.
: )
Railfan Pete.
Tonight, I decided to take the A train from B’Way/East NY to Continental Avenue. I needed to be there at 8 PM so I started out a 7:15 to insure that I’d have plenty of time. I got on an A train which was very surprising since I was waiting on the local track for the express. The ride was pretty fast although for most of the trip the train went slow. I was doing good ‘til I realized that the MF train was not going to Queens. The Bastards at the TA musta figured that the A going to Continental Ave was too convenient so they changed it to go to 207th St. justa mess with the customers. I know this was true becuz I met 17 TA conductors on the train and they all agreed with me.
Anyway, I changed trains at 59th Street for a D train going in the south direction. Even though I was only going one stop, I just hadda get a seat so I let 3 trains go by until one had an empty seat. This is what I mean. The dirtbags at the TA waited until I was late before they sent a train through with an empty seat. Unfortunately, when I sat down, the seat had 7-up on it and I got my pants wet. Those idiots from the TA shoulda had a car cleaner riding on that train. Now my underwear was soaked and it’s only Thursday.
When I got to 53St. 7th Ave, I ran down the stairs just in time to see a re-routed F train pull in. There were some seats but I’ll be damned if I’m going to get on the F train when the TA knows damn well that I’m waiting for an E train – screw them! Anyway, now I wait on the platform for three minutes. I know it was 3 minutes because I met 14 Swiss watchmakers (I knew they were Swiss watch-makers because they all had cuckoo clocks and were eating chocolate) and they all agreed that it was three minutes before the E train arrived. Those bastards did it again. It was an R-46. Well I don’t know about you but the E is supposta be R-32s and I wasn’t about to give inta those TA Bastards and ride whatever junk they decide to send down the road. So I waited and I told the watch-makers not to get onto that train.
Well, it was about 2 ½ minutes later and an R-32 E train arrived. I know it was 2 ½ minutes because 6 or 7 of the Swiss watchmakers were waiting with me and they agreed that it was 2 ½ minutes. Those TA bastards can’t even space the trains evenly. Well we got on and of course – we can’t get a seat until Roosevelt Avenue. I saw one homeless guy on the platform at Roosevelt and figured that he was a TA manager. I called him to get on the train. I told him what happened and he agreed with me that the A train shoulda gone to 179th St. He said the TA don’t giva damn what the customers want. I know he was a TA manager too because he agreed with me.
When we got to continental Avenue, the train missed the station. The conductor had a big fight with the motorman about who was at fault. I thought that the motorman was at fault. There were 19 TA employees on the train and they all agreed with me. I woulda got the conductors name but he was too busy keying people out through the part of the train that was in the tunnel. Anyway, I went to the front of the train because I was late and called the motorman a bad name because he made me late. He agreed with me and there was a notary public there who said that if I wrote down what the motorman said, she would notarize it for me. I knew she was a notary because she had her stamper. Unfortunately, I didn’t have $2 but that’s no reason not to believe me.
Anyway, those TA bastards got me to Continental Avenue an hour late. What made it even worse, I didn’t remember why I was there. So I crossed over to the southbound side and headed back. Just another example why the TA sickens me. They should have the northbound express and southbound express on the same platform so I wouldn’t haveta do so much walking. There were 43 civil engineers with me and they all agreed that the TA gives no thought to the passengers when they design stations. I told them thing will change once the TA hires me. They musta agreed with me cuz they picked me up on their shoulders and carried me up the stairs. God, if the TA managers were just as smart as me – just think how wonderful things could be.
Those *bastards!*
Sure hope you banged all of their skeevy butts in. :)
Remind me not to get on your bad side TD.
------------------------------------------------------------
I'll kick in one (with apologies in advance):
Anyway, it was now 11:30 at night (I know because one of the Swiss clockmakers was still hanging around asking me for my phone number) and I went to the homeless guy who had to be a TA Manager and asked him why the trains ran so badly at night. He said that the best train was the "night train", and if you didn't have that, then you need some "thunderbird". That TA bastard, telling me if I didn't like the service at night then I should drive a car instead. I know because there were 107 goat herders on the platform and they were all agreeing with me.
"Remind me not to get on your bad side TD."
LuchAAA has gotten on my bad side. Despite my frequent contentiousness, it's not easy to really get on my bad side. If you really want to, the surest way is to send a threatening e-mail to my home.
....LuchAAA sent a threatening E-mail to your house? Well, I'd get pretty pissed too.
Did you know Fred Rodgers is retiring after 34 years?
WRONG! He has already retired... Hey, maybe we can get him to work at the TA! He's got to be smart, right? I mean, he has more experience NOT working in the TA than you, and LuchAAA thinks that people outside the TA could do much better than the ones in it. So, why not hire Fred Rogers! That way if the trains are ever late (which would never happen under a competent manager like Fred Rogers) we can hear lectures on patience from Fred Rogers.
he has more experience NOT working in the TA than you, and LuchAAA thinks that people outside the TA could do much better than the ones in it.
He has experience running a trolley; wouldn't that disqualify him?
>>He has experience running a trolley; wouldn't that disqualify him?<<
Are you kidding???!!!??? That makes him all the more better!
I would think his trolley background could only help: after all, it ran to The Land of Make-Believe.
Maybe Fred Rogers can now operate an LRV. ;)
#951 Amtrak AEM-7
They'd probably find him stuffed in a dumpster when the train rolls in at 0345 for the collections.
Kevin, that's not very nice. Fred Rogers is as nice in person as he appears on television, and he also got Burger King to kill a commercial they were running that had a Mr. Rogers parody on it. Fred went to the BK general offices in Miami and asked very nicely for them to stop it. They did.
Don't dis Mr. Rogers. If there were more like him in the world, it just might be a better place.
Agreed ... I was merely suggesting what the likely outcome would be if he was a TA employee ... now if they kept him locked up in a room at Jay street, that'd be a different story. I've had the pleasure of working with Fred over the years when I did public television. And he's VERY nice to work with unlike so many prima donnas. :)
Didn't mean the previous post the way it seemingly got interpreted.
Did you know Fred Rogers is retiring after 34 years?
Are you sure you want to be a T/O for NYCT?
Subway delays and diversion are inevitable. I believe it would improve the intellectual lives of both TA employees and passengers if service announcements were delievred in the form of Japanese Haiku poetry.
The rules are simple. The statement must be exactly 17 syllables in five lines. Five syllables in the first line, seven in the second, five in the third. Expressing a profound thought makes it better and brings inner piece. For example:
The N Train Won't Come
It is stuck in the tunnel
Abandon All Hope.
or
No hippo in sight
At home your dinner grows cold
Your sponse will not wait
Not to mention:
Early morning time
No train for twenty minutes
Stay near token clerk
And from the past:
A strike has been called
Your Brighton train missed its switch
Get off the train now
The Tao that is seen
Is not the true Tao,
until you reset the tripper.
To have no delays
Would be life without meaning
No struggle, no joy
R train door has broke,
Platform at Queens Plaza full.
Morning on QB.
Three things are certain:
Death, taxes, and track fires.
Guess which has occurred.
Diversions have occurred.
We won't tell you where or why.
Lazy dispatchers.
Seeing my great fault
Through darkening red windshield
I charge up again
The train was willing,
It considered your request,
But the doors were weak.
Chaos reigns within.
Reflect, repent, and change ends.
Order shall return.
Metrocard expired.
Only accountants may
enter this system.
First snow, then silence.
This million dollar hippo dies
so beautifully.
The D train you seek
cannot be located but
endless Q's exist
I think you're having way too much fun with this idea.
Keep on going though, most of them have been good so far.
Are these service announcements only made on Kawasaki trains?
Correctamundo ... the Bombardiers are wired for limericks.
Bombardiers can have
Haiku service announcements
With some reflection
Je me souviens! ("give me souvenirs") Heh.
Yesterday it stopped
Today it is not stopping
GO's are like that
R9's got slow brakes
Not quick enough for homeball.
Key by, plum blossom.
Doors have closed.
I am the conductor from hell.
No one hears your screams.
>>> Doors have closed. (3)
I am the conductor from hell. (8)
No one hears your screams. (5) <<<
Service announcements
without correct syllables
can not be Haiku
Proper Haiku for this announcement is:
Doors have now been closed
I'm the conductor from Hell
No one hears your screams.
:-)
Tom
So sorry ... gaigin roundeye now don badge of shame.
I have *shamed* the company ... whoops, don't work here. :)
Stay the patient course
Of little worth is your ire
There is a train ahead.
You step off the stairs,
but the water has moved on.
Another one not right behind.
A train with seats?
It might be very useful.
But now it is gone.
This train now is full,
Please await another one.
Not that it is near.
Lexington Ave.
Has very narrow platforms;
Also smell of pee.
A bum is like a
very big gorilla:
He can sit where he wants.
W train has stopped cold
BIE on Manny B
Recharge the damn brakes.
I Think this fits the format:
This is the "A" Train
Next Stop: Columbus Circle
Watch The Closing Doors
These were found at drearyrainbow.com:
Subway Haiku 1:
The 4 Express Train.
Packed like a can of sardines.
Stop touching my butt.
Subway Haiku 2:
Sometimes, people smell.
On the street, you can escape.
On a train, you can't.
Burma Shave. I'm done, NEXT ...
And here's a collection of "Lionel Haiku" for Train Dude and others that do it in multiple gauges from 1:1 to 1:120 ...
http://users.foxvalley.net/~osn/RR-Haiku.htm
West 4th, next stop ...
Let's do the time warp
Fishnet Stockings are groovy
Gee that chick's big
From a colleague of mine:
I pick quick - between
stops - and most like the poem
about the bagel
by Ryn
Riding on the 1.
Will it stop at Eighty-Sixth?
Whoops, there goes my stop.
Off to JFK.
Another train to Lefferts!
Will I miss my flight?
Signals look all blurry.
Must be an R-46.
Maybe I'm just drunk.
Please move to the rear.
Use center door for exit.
Keep front platform clear.
(Thank you.)
Stop at South Ferry,
only front doors open up.
Go back to Rector.
Escalator broke.
Gotta walk up all those steps.
Will kill token clerk.
Spelling is a chore.
Ride the G past Flushing Ave:
you're at Brod-a-way.
Going to West End.
No W this weekend.
Use the N instead.
"Last stop, all must leave!"
cries the weary conductor.
Train goes to the yard.
No trains for track work.
See the missing rail right there?
Ride the shuttle bus.
too many political posts
we need more
selkirk tmo
probably not real haiku
but i thought i'd see if i could get kevin started on something, that would probably put him in my killfile also
That'll cost you a pair of twenties, son. Moo. :)
Apologies to all, the Haiku was the first intellectual pursuit I've had here in a while since cab windows beat fan windows every trip, I don't care about Nimbys for they have to pay for taxis (assuming they'll travel there) and as to politics, spent 15 years serving it. I'm a free man now. So to roll this back around to slap the faces of those who miss the 'boids like we did when OUR favorite rides got cremated ...
Yesterday it stopped
Today it is not stopping
R9's are like that.
i like haikus... they're very whimsical...
And typically Japanese as well - restrained in format to the point where they lack the free form or soul of Ginsburg. The cadence is rigid, the structure is tight, but I digress. Was still a bit of fun trying to come up with something that measured the subways to keep it on topic. I think Paul M came up with a WONDERFUL concept and hope some others fall into the groove and maintain it. Sure beats "where would I put an R40 into the consist and run it to someplace where no train has gone before" ... no offense to anyone, but I came here to hang out with those who actually RUN the rails these days - that's what attracted me to this place to begin with, shooting the sheet with folks who are line item numbers with the "ta" today. Fellow victims of "oh, so you thought running a train would be fun, eh? Heh."
Sure I love subways and talking it up from all angles, but my greatest joy here is from the BigEdIRTmanL, ZMan, Pelham Dave and the many other folks here who do (or did) it for a living ... Only thing that bothers me about the place is the kibbitzers and those who abuse others. Everybody has the constitutional right to be wrong, and learn from their mistakes. It's when they insist on being an irritant that I get to have my fill of it. Still, too mellow to reach for my shootin' iron. :)
But the haikus were fun ... go for it!
SubTalk is fine Home
For fans who dream to run trains
But would smash bumper
"More cash for welfare
Let transit die on the vine"
Says liberal Mark Green
wind catches lily
scatt'ring petals to the wind:
NTSB, sign here .
heypaul cave phantom,
his shadow is barely seen,
he rides on the wind
avid san
heypaul cave phantom,
his shadow is barely seen,
he rides on the wind
avid san
the master has spoken
the seat is dry
long ride to rockaway
rockaway is now ancient tale
now ride road of the queen
eff is new journey
avid san
a woman who cooks
carrots and peas in the pot
is very unsanitary
avid san
Could be fun but in 50 words or less, what are the rules for Haiku? My lack of culture is showing.
Five syllables first
Seven syllables follow
Five syllables end
Thanks very much !!!
I was taught 7-11-7, or at least that's how I remember it, and how I wrote it.
:-) Andrew
No haiku cops here
Seven-eleven-seven
Is okay with me
Mark
Do deska! Domo, arrigato.
Mr. Roboto :)
Isn't it similar to writing the 'one liners' for fortune cookies?
(My lack of haiku training is showing)
That is the beauty
Anyone can write haiku
Everyone has fun
Mark
Suit on his anus
See the big-shot commuter
Ah, Ronkonkoma
On Upper West Side
Limo libs act so bone-headed
I love the Sun Belt
Way down south
Everybody's losing their jobs.
Am-bushed.
Railfan Petey
Would have anxiety attacks
If he saw this thread
Rhythm is broken
seven five seven is test
Haiku police watch
To read haiku
Railfan Pete would require
opposable thumbs.
I'm trying to picture the Three Stooges reciting haiku. "I resemble that remark" wouldn't cut it, nor would "Why, sointanly".:-)
Your lack of culture? Heck, the only culture I get is in a cup of yogurt.
You can always try the ceiling at Chambers Street.
Eeeewwwwwww!!
My question is: Is haiku related to Hai-Karate....hmmm
:-)
BMTman
Nah, it SMELLS better. :)
Poets moved upstate
Before Herr Mayor closed the gate
Last train has departed
Hai Ku? Bless you :)
--Mark
Redbirds into the blue sea
Salaam holding on for dear life
Time for one last "Glug, Glug, Glug"
Train Dude on vacation
Tries haiku as new vocation
The D Train is Doomed
Lake George tomorrow
or Hoboken Festival
vacation nears end
Missing Hoboken
FP7's to Strasburg
Railroad Museum
Museum is closed.
Let's revive the H train now.
Next stop is Court Street.
Yesterday it stopped
Today it is not stopping
Diarrhea sucks.
Acela ran great
207 tomorrow
Then to Hoboken
Heh. You mean they filled in the hole in the motorman's seat and removed the roll of paperwork on the right side of the cab? That does it, I'm coming back to Jay street to kick some butt.
A railfan window
is all Salaam Allah wants
few left to be had
"Save our useless jobs"
Cry the lazy booth monkeys
"And [deleted] all new tech"
I sit aboard an F train
with each glance of my watch lateness progresses
I am awaiting movement.
Or as a 5-7-5:
Aboard an F train
Quickly, lateness progesses
awaiting movement
:-) Andrew
Would this count as a haiku poem?
The redbirds are gone
singing there song
in the ocean
Named V Train for Me
Can't Wait Until Tommorow
Ride From End to End
Pity the Triplex
like a herd of buffalo
slaughtered just for sport.
Asked this question a couple of days ago but didn't get an answer:
I now have four of the new Am. Exp. MCs, i.e. '79; '80; '90 & '99
- Is that all there is ?
- Not being a tennis fan can someone help me to ID the players on these cards ?
P.S. apparently they are selling some of these outside the MVMs as I also was given a MC Holder for '90
P.P.S. also saw a nice wrap inside a Red Bird of the tennis event, in Am Exp green of course. Shame it's too big to fit in my collection book :-(
Mr t
Found a reply Friday Aug 31st:
Yannick Noah; Martina Hingus; Todd Martin; & Tracy Austin ... but who is who ... I don't have a clue.
Re: was Hingus amoung the group last year ?
Yes, it was her; Lindsey Davenport; Patrick Rafter; & Michael Chang.
The 1999 group was: Venus Williams (I saved a small photo from the paper of the sisters & put it in my collection); Jansen brothers; Althea Gibson; & John McEnroe.
Mr t__:^)
does anyone have the information about nyc subway expansion projects (staten island connection, 2nd ave subway etc)? please mail me if you got something. thanks in advance.
Look at the archives.
NYC Subway Expansion Projects with some budget already committed include the Second Av Subway and LGA access. Another funded at study level is the 7 extension to Javits Convention Center.
The LIRR's ESA project is in the Capital Plan, and is partly funded. It is already partly constructed.
Other projects may exist, but only on paper. No funding or engineering.
You may want to consult the MTA website, especially the parts on Planning Studies and Capital Program.
Yes, go to the MTA website which is in response (previous) to this posting, and click on the left list "Planning Studies".
From there, there are 7 projects awaiting long-term construction. And not only on the SUBWAY, but also on the LIRR, Metro-North, Bridges & Tunnels (automobiles), and the SUBWAY (obviously).
But don't expect construction to be completed anytime soon, as the first cranes and drillers will be moving into the city within 2004. (Most likely the last quarter of the year, because it has DEFINITELY come to my attention that AMERICAN ARCHITECTS ARE SLOWWWWWW>>>..)
Good luck in your studies!
: )
Railfan Pete.
I saw these posters on every column on the downtown platform at 72nd Street/Broadway
(1) [WEEK END]
Downtown trains stop on the local track
...
I don't think that needs to be on a G.O. poster, do you?
Of course I have not read the G.O. but could it mean that the X-press trains will also be stopping on the local track? Hmmmmmmmmm!
Yes, it affects the 1 in a way. But you probably didn't mention that the 2 logo was on there...If it was just the 1 then the MTA goofed. BTW, what's up your sleeve for the next BVE route? (If you are making one)
[If it was just the 1 then the MTA goofed.]
It was just (1), but if they wanted to show that the (1) AND (2) were stopping on the local track, why not (2)? I guess it's a typo.
[BTW, what's up your sleeve for the next BVE route? (If you are making one)]
The (E) from Jamaica Center to World Trade Center.
The MTA puts all diversions onto the posters. Any type of advisory, there it goes, onto the poster.
Bear with it. I don't think it needs to be on a G.O. poster either.
: )
Railfan Pete.
Car-free neighborhood proposed
It isn't crazy at all, actually. In carefully selected areas, you can have people stash cars in peripheral facilities, while a center living or shopping space remains free of cars (except emergency access for police, fire, medical etc.). It isn't good for everywhere, but I can definitely see a place in the world for that.
It's nice that someone is exploring the concept. Creative thinking at work...
As one who works in Cambridge, I can comment on this. In order for this to work, the "Urban Ring" transit program would have to be fully implemented. That is designed to bring significant transit upgrades to a large part of the Boston metropolitan area outside of the central Boston business district. You can read about the Urban Ring here. Right now, the MBTA Green Line Lechmere service to this area is not sufficient to support a car-free zone.
I agree with your logic. Mass transit would have to be beefed up some...
haiku spreading fast
even train dude shows interest
ecstasy abounds
Snow day, train yard play.
My tongue sticks to frozen track.
Oops, here comes a train.
temperature way low
dude put tounge to rail three
it sizzle not freeze
avid san
I put my toung on track
gates are going down
the train missed me
Handle forward at mid station
four, six, eight, ten, S, dark.
DCO functions.
ecstasy abounds
are you talking about drugs?
"ecstasy abounds--- am i talking about drugs??"
i don't mess with drugs...
ecstasy according to my collegiate dictionary is "a state of being beside oneself" or a "mystic, prophetic, or poetic trance" not usually found in trendy clubs or here at subtalk...
Why do I get this sudden urge for Chicken Teriyaki?
You'll know you've gone over the edge when you have a YEN for YAKITORI ...
A hundred haikus have I read
An act which has filled me with dread
I just cannot warm
To this rhymeless form
Can't someone write limericks instead?
A brilliant young T/O from Brighton
Said "over haiku I am fightin' "
So he took out his pen
Said "don't care about Zen"
And wrote a poem that was rhymin'
Train is coming
Whistle Squealing
Stop!
Avoid That
Rundown Feeling!
Burma-Shave
Yesterday, I dropped by the Transit Museum store at Grand Central Terminal and found a small, but well-presented exhibit, "Take Me Out to the Ball Game," with photos of rail transit to various ball parks of New York City. The photos, maps, quotations, and memorabilia are excellent. Worth 15 minutes or more. The exhibit closes September 22.
i was there too yesterday... i didn't really look at the baseball exhibit, because i was trying to talk them into putting up a haiku exhibit next month...
i'm really posting this to slam that shop for really having nothing in the way of things to buy... about 2 months ago, i bought a streamlined chrome plated 3 car articulated windup toy there for $10... it's a beauty and it works and it survived a 6 year old playing with it for a couple of hours... it's a good thing that i didn't give it to the little girl, because they didn't have anymore of them there yesterday... with the museum closed, the gct shop really doesn't have much beyond a tremendous collection of t shirts...
yeah... take me out to the ballgame...
take me out to a transit museum shop... i may stop off in philly tomorrow after i disrupt the model traction show at KOPectate and visit a real transit museum shop...
Don't tell me you had some more of that cheap birthday cake.:-)
Anyone have any info on a trolley line that was to be built in Brooklyn sometime in the near future??? I remember seeing it in the papers a few years ago but have heard nothing since. Thanx all.
Check out Kevin Walsh's Forgotten-ny.com for a good write-up with many photographs and links to other sites at the bottom.
Here's a article on the Redbirds to the SEA!!
The URL is: http://inq.philly.com/content/inquirer/2001/08/22/front_page/SSUBWAY22.html
No Second System
All riches spent for the First
The building spark dies
*****
Luciano drives
Consumers Park flashes by
Malbone Street is here
*****
W is now
Old West End sees a new line
No B plies the rails
*****
The redbirds sleep now
In ocean's peaceful embrace
Fish dart happily
*****
The BMT Gone
Subway Unification
Progress in past tense
Dishonest Abe Beame
Shuffled away all the funds
The East Side now weeps
Escalator broke?
Do you want some quick relief?
In one year, maybe
Here's another haiku:
Please move to the rear
Use center door for exit
Keep front platform clear
SOUND FAMILIAR????
Bob Sklar
Hey! I caught that one too!
But the second and third lines are swapped. Too bad.
I will never forget sitting, for the first time, on a BMT wicker bench where the wicker had frayed and a sharp edge stood straight up. Still brings tears to my eyes.
Those wicker seats were great for "cutting you up" . We had them on
the old subway cars here in Philadelphia.
Chuck Greene
Funny, we never had that problem on the IRT.
Lo-Vs forever!!!!
The problem wasn't that the wicker frayed. Those points sticking up (where it counted) were more often the result of vandalism. Cutting the wicker with a knife wasn't easy, but who said we had lazy hoods.
This was one of the reasons that these seats were replaced with vinyl covered foam. Of course, these were easy to slash.
Wicked cut wicker
Vinyl fell to incision
Hard seats punish butts
>>> The problem wasn't that the wicker frayed. Those points sticking up (where it counted) were more often the result of vandalism <<<
I beg to differ. No doubt that some vandalism occurred, but after forty years of service there were many wicker seats with sharp points, particularly at front of the seat where it flexed each time someone sat on it. If you sat down and slid back on the seat, you could easily end up with torn trousers.
Tom
tom - i agree. if there was anything such as pre-vandal, this was it. we not only saw no reason to do something like that, but we were also afraid to.
john rofrano
For everyone who has kvetched about a broken MVM be thankful that "we" have it better than PATH riders.
During lunch today I popped over to the World Trade Center station of PATH to pick up a QuickCard for my trip to/from the Try Transit Festival tomorrow. Lo and behold - all 10 (you heard me 10) QuickCard vending machines were not working. Some were completely dead, others terminated the transaction by itself (I did get my money back), some started OK and then just stopped.
Shows you that just how much the Port Authority really cares about PATH riders.
Just goes to show that despite minor inconveniences the MVM's are fine.
One of the QuickCard Machines at 14 St that if you put Dollar Bills($1,$5,$10,$20.)In. It would not FEED it into the machine. And the other one is good.
MVMs are fine, until daylight savings time comes and it's buggy microsoft back end dies again.
I've always been wondering why The Tubes have gone this long without station agents. They should bring them back, instead of relying solely on security cameras and guards that appear every now and then.
They should bring them back
Then YOU should pay the greater fare to support their salary.
How un-American, expecting people who use something to pay for it themselves!!
I'm annoyed at how when someone pays at a QCVM, and the transaction ends when the user inserts ONE bill that the machine rejects! On an MVM, if that happens, you can try again without repeating the transaction.
I was studying an old transit map from 1972 and was wondering what happened to the "K" train? I see it ran from Bway/ENY to 57th and 6th. Where did it crossover to run over the "F" line and do such a crossover still exist? A connection like that without having to change at Delancey for the "F" would seem a blessing with the Manhattan Bridge work in effect.
That "K" train was discontinued a few years later. It did not get enough ridership to support it.
If memory serves it terminated at Atlantic Avenue not Bway/E-NY.
The connection still exists. It is just south of the Essex St station (BMT) and joins/leaves the F just south of Bway-Lafayette
Here's a thought...lets restart the "K" train and have it run from 71st/Continental as a local or express, continue on Queens Blvd. to the new 63rd Street Tunnel connection after 36th Street in Queens. After reaching Manhattan, switch over to 57th and 6th. From there, continue as either an express or a local to Bway/Lafayette along the "F" or "D" tracks. From there switch over to the "J" line to Bway/ENY. (I would run express to Myrtle and skip stop service to Bway/ENY). From there, switch over to the "L" line and proceed down to Canarsie...but here's the catch. Provide 3rd rail service and switch over to the NY & Atlantic freight tracks and continue along that ROW out to, say, Bay Ridge. By doing this, it will provide service to South & East Brooklynites, as well as provide some relief to some other train lines....thoughts anyone?
That's not a half bad idea, but why run that train pattern? the train would be a confusing zig zag line. keep it on Canarsie all the way to 8th av manhattan. Then, it connects to ALL major trunk lines in manhattan (Nassau st excluded). Plus, it could run express to the L train.
However, that line would take a loooong time to get from Bay Ridge to anywhere near manhattan
Not a bad idea to run along the L line to Manhattan. But, if you provide skip stop service along the NY & Atlantic freight ROW during rush hour as well, you can trim some time off that trip from Bay Ridge.
With a connection to the A & C lines and the LIRR, you now have a connection to downtown Brooklyn at Bway/ENY as well as Queens and JFK. Consider that people in South and East Brooklyn don't have that option now, it is the least expensive way and no property would have to be acquired.
>>With a connection to the A & C lines and the LIRR, you now have a connection to downtown Brooklyn at Bway/ENY as well as Queens and JFK. Consider that people in South and East Brooklyn don't have that option now, it is the least expensive way and no property would have to be acquired.<<
I like this idea. But, I doubt that the TA will implement it. You'd have to build hundreds of millions of $ worth of stations, plus electrify the line.
There could be a some heavy transfer points. For instance, N service in Bay Ridge, D & Q service in Kensignton, 2 & 5 lines at Flatbush Avenue, a new connection to the 3 line at Junius St in East NY. Maybe its worth a look at by the TA. Its a good alternative and it does open South Brooklyn to new business possibilities
Here's a thought Sub-Talkers...start up the "K" train again and have it this time run from 71st/Continental as a local or express and continue along Queens Blvd. to the new 63rd Street Tunnel connection after 36th Street in Queens. After switching & reaching Manhattan, run along 57th and 6th. From there, continue as either an express or a local to Bway/Lafayette along the "F" or "D" tracks. From there switch over to the "J" line to Bway/ENY. (I would run express to Myrtle and skip stop service to Bway/ENY). From there, switch over to the "L" line and proceed down to Canarsie...but here's the catch. Add 3rd rail service and switch over to the NY & Atlantic freight tracks and continue along that ROW out to, say, Bay Ridge. By doing this, it will provide service to South & East Brooklynites, provide some relief to some other train lines, and maybe a connection with the Second Ave. Subway....thoughts anyone?
Unfortunately (?) running over the NY&A tracks is a non-starter
because of FRA issues. Either a dedicated track would have to
be constructed ($$$), service would have to be time-separated (not
likely) or the NYCT equipment would have to be brought up to FRA
standards (yeah, right!).
Also, any train named "K" (or "H" for that matter) has historically
been short-lived.
How about the loop line: Parsons/Archer upstairs via QB, 6 Ave,
WB, Bway-Brklyn, Jamaica and Archer ave extension back to
Parsons/Archer downstairs? Wow, talk about a long job...how'd
ya like to pick 4 of those trips per day?
You would have to run it local down 6th Avenue because you would create a bottleneck at West 4th Street switching it from the express to the local. But with the service cut back on 6th Avenue because of the work on the bridge, it could work for a time.
Instead of running the V to 2nd Avenue, run it out to Canarsie.
But, there just aren't enough cars for that..........
What you have there is just an extended "V" train, so let's just send the "V" out to Canarsie.
wayne
It was Killed.
The last K train ran local on 8th Avenue, it pretty much replaced the AA when the MTA eliminated double letters from the nomenclature in the 1980s. It was, in turn, pretty much replaced by the C local.
There is some vestigial signage for the K outside the subway entrance at 8th Avenue and 15th Street.
I miss the K, since it's my initial.
www.forgotten-ny.com
But now you have the W, your other initial.
You've probably read this among the other people who have answered you. After Delancey St there is a switch where the K would turn north, join the Christie St connection then connect with the F line before entering B'way-Lafayette.
If you're ever taken the F between B'way-Lafayette and 2nd Ave and saw turn off tracks that seem to be rarely used, that's it.
How long were the R27 and R30 cars?
60' 6". All B div cars were that length up to the R-44.
Thanks
I've been observing and noticing for the past few weekends, that the exterior lighting on the s/b side of 40 St. on the Flushing line are remained on in broad daylight, and when the sun is up at high noon. I checked even around 1:50-2:00PM and the lights were still on. It was BROAD DAYLIGHT with minimal clouds in the sky.
Anyone know WHY the lights are kept on during the day like this?
I am definitely sure that it's not used for safety, and it justs consumes the T/A's money for the cost of unnecessary electricity, and it just wastes electricity and the life of the bulbs for no reason.
: |
Railfan Pete.
They probably simply forgot to turn them off.
On a related note: Trains are (or were) supposed to run with lights off during daylight on els/surface running, but the only line I have regularly seen this is on the 7. Sometimes I will see this on the A, but not very often.
Sometimes when the interior lights are turned off by one train crew (assuming the terminal is an elevated station and a portion of the line is underground), another train crew will not turn the lights back on on the return trip until the train enters the tunnel and realizes the lights are off. I was on an A train once that was dark from the time it entered the tunnel until about Euclid Avenue.
That's not even the half of it. Here in the Bronx 161rst #4 upper level Yankee Staduims lights on both platforms are on 24 a day rain or shine
The TA web site had listed two GO's on the 1 this weekend: northbound trains express 42-72 and southbound trains express 137-96. With the latest update, they're gone. Are the GO's cancelled or did somebody overenthusiastically remove them too early?
Just check the TA website and there they are.
I live in Edison, NJ, and my high school (named "J.P. Stevens") has started its year off with a bang. We started last Wednesday.
Because of this, fellow SubTalkers will be seeing less of my postings, as HS grows on. It depends on how much work I have, I can't spend an entire day at the keyboad staring at a screen when I have work to do. Too many postings, too little time.
This brings some to rejoice, and some to disbelief. But as you know, one cannot be accepted by EVERYONE in the crowd. There's always a crowd who's not interested.
Good luck to everyone, including those who were ignorant of me and thought of my postings as pointless, but after all the railfanning observations I have posted, and how many things I've learned (esp. from Train Dude's posts on mechanics), and the responses that were drawn, I really appreciated it. Thanks for the support and I'll see all of you folks later, hopefully...
: ()
Railfan Pete.
You're just a kid? I thought you were a olf fart like most of the other people here. Hey, have fun at school and say hi to LINCOLN tower for me. That's a great photo spot what with the penumatic switch machines and whatnot.
I will, bro. I'll be sure to keep you folks posted on the future rounds of the NYC SUBWAY when I grow up to be adults just like these SubTalkers.
I'll be around when the R142(A)'s start to retire!
I'm a 14-year old lad, by the way.
: )
Railfan Pete.
Ha! Enjoy high school sucker! I just got out in June:)
Have you attended college? I hope you haven't earned a first-hand job working in a supermarket or flipping burgers at fast-food restaurants.
My lifetime chance starts now. It's life or death.
Railfan Pete.
Whatever you do, don't stray too far from the tracks. Between schoolwork and transportation, I didn't have time to get into trouble.
Take all of your hard classes first and save the classes you like for senior year, when you won't feel like doing work. If you stay on top of your assignments, you'll be able to post fairly regularly.
Good luck.
And one more thing, LEARN TO BUDGET YOUR TIME!
Take all of your hard classes first and save the classes you like for senior year
It's not like high school freshmen are given much of a choice in their classes.
I started classes at Hofstra this week. I spent 8 years (4 in junior high and 4 in high school) at J.R. Masterman back in Philly.
I'm glad it's over but I really miss my friends back home. It's the people, not the things, that make life truly rich, I've found. Enjoy the years you have in high school, really. Once you're out, it's quite a grown world quite quickly.
>>>I thought you were a olf fart like most of the other people here. <<<
As Gorilla Monsoon used to say, I resemble that remark.
www.forgotten-ny.com
Are you talking about an actual lightning strike? If so, think about the misguided nature of your most recent posts. God don't fire too many warning shots. Education is more than the three R's. Good luck in school but learn some tollerance too.
What are your insights? Of course it was not real. It was a metaphor.
And I STILL would appreciate accurate answers to my questions on a couple of my railfanning trips. I haven't been getting much lately.
No, not at all. Consider my posting titled: "Railfanning trip at 5AM at Metuchen during AM rush".
It's now far down the post. Only retrieved ONE (1) response, which wasn't the answers to my questions. .....
: |
Railfan Pete.
>>> Only retrieved ONE (1) response, which wasn't the answers to my questions. ..... <<<
Consider that a lesson in life, Pete, the rest of the world does not always grant your wishes. :-)
Tom
Back on Aug 10th I was in the Science Tower here when it was hit by 3 bolts in rather quick sucession. Being the tallest building around with a radio transmitter does not make this a strange occurance.
I'm sure that you hate my guts right now. That's okay. Lot's of other people do too. I'm sure I've made as many killfiles as American Pig.
Anyways, before I stray away from the topic of this post, i'd like to say that I hate to see anyone leave the site. And, I don't hate you, nor do I consider you to be a 'bad' person.
By the Way, I'm in High School too. I'm a Junior now, at the prestigious Stuyvesant H.S. High School is hardly the hype they make it to be. I've already completed all the required courses in Science and math (this means I have take Physics. Yes, it WILL be boring) as well as in Foreign Language. (I have to take more math and science until I graduate). Don't fret. High School isn't much tougher than Junior High.
I'm sure I've made as many killfiles as American Pig.
Why do you think I've made that many killfiles anyway?
>>Why do you think I've made that many killfiles anyway?<<
...Ummm, I don't know. You just seem like a 'killfilish' sort of guy...
3 days and already school lunch is getting to my brain...
You eat inside? Ewww.
>>You eat inside? Ewww.<<
Only while we have 20min. periods. Imagine trying to go somewhere, order, eat and get back to a class on the 7th floor in 15 minutes?
Next week, that all changes.
Take a look at this web site:
http://www.capcyber.com/trains/New499.htm
and scroll down to the subway cars. Can anybody confirm my suspicions that these 'TTC' subway cars are really models of some New York subway cars with bad looking TTC logos stuck on? The window profile isn't accurate at all and that side rollsign really makes me wonder...
-Robert King
They do look kind of like R-42's.
They're supposed to be, but what's with the bulkheads?
GOODNESS! Look at those prices!!!!!
I'm familiar with "Lionel trains", since I watched a 2-hour video of the history of them.
In the beginning of the video, it mentioned: "To own every set manufactured by Lionel would cost $50,000."
The video was copyrighted and produced within the year 2000.
Keep in mind that they are MODEL TTC trainsets, and NOT the actual juice.
I think the most realistic looking model train produced and manufactured by Lionel are the BNSF, Santa Fe, and the various historical STEAM locomotives with New York Central, and all of the old car companies which I am not familiar with because I haven't been around back then.
Railfan Pete.
PETE - I'm guessing that those prices are in canadian dollars. not sure what the current ratio is, but 60 cents on the dollar or thereabouts would not surprise me.
john
I've been to Toronto plenty of times and that looks NOTHING like TTC cars. What a ripoff, but for someone that's never been there or takes the time to do the research, they are the genuine article.
I'm more taken with the TTC PCC with the wings around the headlight that appears to be signed "F Market"
To subtalkers--from Joe @ NYCMTS
The photo shows TTC-painted-up cars by MTH which are from the first batch of the N Y subway-series-cars R-42 Class (of FOUR differet R-type sets) - all of which - I was the project tech support consultant on - except MTH did not take my strict advice and make the R-42's to scale 60' long --they shortened them in disregard for my specifics that they be a scale 60 feet x 10 feet (15" x 2 1/2") ---they wanted to be sure these negotiated 027 track (didnt 15" long Lionel Budd RDCs - an unscale 60' long as produced--but same body-shell size as the PROPER R-42 model length should have been---negotiate 027 Track??) - so they selectively compressed the R-42's to a "scale" 51 feet. I wont go into the frick & frack that happened after that with me & MTH - but I only continued with them in my role because they
agreed not to make any more NON-scale NY subway
cars while my services were to be rendered to MTH.
These cars done up in TTC scheme are solely a MTH
marketing idea - My role was for the N Y R-42 - R-21 -R-32 (late in production delivery per this date)
and R-17's (due in -hopefully - Jan-Feb. 2002)
Plans for an R-33 "S" WF car (single units) in the
1964 WF colors seem to be up in the air - since my friend and original Project Manager left MTH with quite a number of other people in early June 2001 - and this futile attempt at passing NY City "R-42" carbodies off as Toronto Cars is a total surprise to me. It will probably evoke the same (if not worse) response from TTC fans as the "truncated 51'" R-42 brought from many dismayed N Y o-SCALERS (not gaugers) who. like me, model and operate full 1/4" scale N Y transit models - and these MTH cars dont even remotely pass off as TTC cars !!! (Oh Well--NOW you know it wasnt from MY involvement with MTH---for sure!) Can you just imagine if MTH tried to pass off this same R-42 body - disguised in CTA colors -to our diehard CTA friends and O-scale CTA modelers as a "Chicago Set"----instead of the beautiful Pullman Std. CTA Transit sets they did (and correctly for the most part ) produce for Chicago!!??
(Imput from David Cole coming???
Just had to set the record straight - fellows--
Regards - Joe @ NYCMTS
joe... i'm really surprised at you... for someone who decries rivet counters, i would have thought that you would give mth some slack over the 51' car instead of 60' car... it's 15% shorter than it should be, and maybe it looks a little funny... but they had the right idea in mind... having a 51' car will allow the conscientious modeler to run 10 can trains which will take up almost the same space as 8 60" cars... there is a definite advantage to that, exactly what i'm not sure...
now take the issue of the ttc cars built using r42 bodies... as it's happening, this seems unbelievable... but people will kick themselves 30 years from now, when this car will sell on ebay for 100 times the purchase price... i predict that this will be like the upside down air mail stamp that's worth a fortune now... the word on the street is that those in the know are buying up truck loads of this car with an eye to future appreciation...
and then there's the issue of the caine towing over its own tow line... again, nothing but lies by a bunch of disloyal officers, who fought me at every turn... no my model train set-up was nothing, but joe's was the talk of the town...
Well-Paul - its like a camera - or photo-copier
(copier machine) you expect (and pay for) the facsimile to be ACCURATE - how would you like a camera or copier that makes your face and head look like it was an image off one of the Coney Island
"funny mirrors" (HEY-Paul - remember them when we were kids...) where your head was about 3 feet high and 2 inches wide and your ears looked like "Dumbo's" ears - and your mouth looked like a bullet hole - how would you like a reproduction instrument
(camera, copier, etc. --scanner--) that took a
perfect scale image (of you?) and "squished" it and said
"That is what you look like ---ie; MTH R-42
with a 9" wide motormans side window and 30" wide side doors openings with 15" wide leaf-doors - sheeeit - thats the width of a 30" real-size closet door cut in half. A 1/4" scale model transit system rush hour loading nightmare.
I'll see your "squished--selectively compressed" personna at the KoP-ectate
show Saturday--and well talk...(heh heh)
I rest my case !!
Regards - Joe @ NYCMTS
(and leave the G--D-- barbecue grill, fold up chairs, snack racks and kiddie toilet toys back in Sheepshead Bay!! Cheers!)
joe... i will be bringing my gas grill, so as to provide a service to the many traction modelers attending this fine event... i've heard that the food concessioners on site are very pricey, so my hamburgers and franks will provide an affordable alternative to all attendees, as well as providing me an opportunity to recoup the $10 admission that i will be soaked at the door...
likewise, i have acquired a couple of dozen of the streamliner chrome plated wind-up toys that i will be selling for $15 a piece... i think that this foreign made toy is far superior to the over priced goods that will sold at the show... one of these toys has provided me with endless hours of amusement while i wait for something significant to be said here at subtalk...
Can you just imagine if MTH tried to pass off this same R-42 body - disguised in CTA colors -to our diehard CTA friends and O-scale CTA modelers as a "Chicago Set"----instead of the beautiful Pullman Std. CTA Transit sets they did (and correctly for the most part ) produce for Chicago!!??
We would immediately dispatch Tony the Brick over to their offices to point out the error of their ways, and persuade them to make the appropriate corrections in a timely manner.
Besides, the cars would have to be shrunk even further to fit around the Loop. :-)
Imput from David Cole coming???
Have I become the official spokesman of the Chicago delegation on SubTalk? Now that's a scary thought!
-- David
Chicago, IL
David ---why YES - and rightfully so ----and why not as your posts show you are a historian-pro on your Chigago region rail subjects - PS - and YES - I have always been an admirer and follower (not a modeler tho - I am swamped with NY stuff on this end) and collector of books and publications (CERA etc.) on that great CTA system...past and present --most definitely!!
Regards - Joe @ NYCMTS
Hi Bob - After reviewing the additional posts and the actual website - which took a while to get onto my screen - IT APPEARS that this MTH R-42 set was
CUSTOM PAINTED by someone - possibly the photo-website owner - as are
many other items probably customized jobs of MTH and other Manufacturers products...as shown on that website.
Being MTH is closed until Monday--I cannot verify
these cars AS BEING MTH factory-produced items--
---and now I doubt that they are nothing more than one-set customized by an individual for resale at a profit...period. It wouldnt surprise me either if MTH would try TTC idea either - but more people would have been aware of the "TTC SUBWAY SET BY MTH" long before that particular website would have had a "TTC R-42" set to sell - so its just becomes an amusing, if totally unrealistic -- model-item at the least.
Regards - Joe @ NYCMTS
Now that I've read through the website more thoroughly, particularly on the page above the one I provided the link to, that is the way it seems to be. Thanks for clearing this up. I was pretty sure that those were New York subway cars that had been 'adapted'.
If there was an MTH production run of those TTC fakes (either the subway cars or the PCC) I'd probably know about it because there'd be a huge row about it up here. No self respecting model company would take an improperly modeled New York subway car and do worse by attempting to pass it off as a TTC car with nearly no modifications.
With respect to the part of your other post concerning the compression of the models so that they are not an accurate reduced scale repoduction of 60 feet long subway cars, can you imagine what they'd have to do to compress the models if they did try to model non-Gloucster TTC cars, all of which are 75 feet long? I don't think it could be done, instead they'd only be able to do the Gloucsters which were 57 feet long.
Thanks,
Robert King
While on a Manhattan bound 7 express this morning I noted that a local train that had just pulled out after we got to Woodside got ahead of us, it was skipping all stops between Woodside and Queensboro plaza. It getting in front didn't delay my train that much.
I rode the Q express today as well. At 57-7th two locals came in, then one left then the express arrived. There some confusion as to who would leave first but my express did, because it's supposed to be express then local, then express in that order. The S/B Broadway express was very fast on the Slant R40 Q, since there were no trains ahead of us. The ride over the bridge went pretty well, and the Brighton express run was pretty fast. But because of a G.O. (did not see this on the website) we ran express on the local between Kings highway and Sheepshead bay. Track A3 was out of service, with red flags and temporary trip arms, and I saw track workers on the track, they were just standing there at the time. Switched to usual tracks just before Brighton. The return ride was even better. The T/O was really, really agressive, one of the most agressive T/O's on the Q that I ever saw. The train must've been going over 50mph at times. And I think there's another fast spot on the Q many have overlooked. It's that nice straightaway between Prospect Park and 7th ave. And right before Dekalb, this T/O was really gutsy. He went up to a Red homeball that cleared just about a second or less! Wow that was something to see from that railfan window, I really thought we'd get tripped. For the rest of trip back to 57th we had a Hippo in front of us so the speed wasn't as fast, but still not bad.
Later I took an R62 6 express up to the Bronx. The express stretch is pretty fast, especially once you get out of the tunnel and onto the elevated, which gives you a great view of Amtrak.
Going back from Pelham I rode on an R142A. It was also pretty fast even with the local stops. Also the C/R gets ahead of the announcements, closinng the doors before the lady gets finished. Got off at 125th for an express train. This was around 3pm, and the platform was packed. There was announcement that there were mechanical difficulties with a 4 train, and that a 5 train should be arriving within another 4 minutes. Well I could've just taken the local, but opted for the adventure. The 5, an R62 was packed, like a Sardine can. I squeezed on and the ride to Grand Central was very fast. Also I was squished up against this cute little Indian lady, needless to say I had to look around the train and think of railfanning or I'd get too excited.
Well going back to Flushing on the 7 was also a pretty good trip. The R62 really does well with speed, I'm sure they'll be just as fast as the redbirds on the Flushing line. Maybe even faster. Plus they ride pretty smooth.
Also I was squished up against this cute little Indian lady, needless to say I had to look around the train and think of railfanning or I'd get too excited.
Does Indian count as "mystical?"
Well if she's cute, little, and dark haired Oh I'm so desperate!!!
I was hoping the train would go BIE and she'd fall on top of me.
Ya know it's bad when you start kissing and hugging your pillow. That sardine can 5 I rode on felt good, I need all the physical contact I can get. :-0
I wonder what the "mechanical" problem on the 4 was? Anybody have any details?
You'd go nuts in my apartment building. Of about 250 units in my building, I'd guess about 3/4 of the tenants are Asian. (Tibetan, to be precise.) There's a Tibetan community center just off the lobby, and apparently the Dali Lama himself has even paid a visit. And the "Little Chinatown" district of Argyle Street is just three blocks south of here. (Mostly Vietnamese down there.)
Very few stray dogs in this neighborhood. :-)
-- David
Chicago, IL
You better watch out for those oversized dragon clips, they will get you! Of all the spots in NYC, by far the best women are on East Broadway in Chinatown.
But Dragon clips can get you anywhere. The most mystical subway line is the W (used to be B) going to Brooklyn. There alot of chinese people there.
Most of the clientele on the Lex lines are a bit too upscale, yeah even that Indian women looked like she had fancy tastes. I'm just looking for a simple cute girl from the heart of Mainland China. Yup those are the keepers. :-)
Well if you run into any hot foxy Greek chicks with lush brunette hair, send em on over to Jersey for a little Devil action.
>>Also I was squished up against this cute little Indian lady, needless to say I had to look around the train and think of railfanning or I'd get too excited.<<
That happened to me before on the Lex line(well, actually, she was white, not Indian and because she was facing me.....let's just say it was awkward).
.....
I think I'll start taking the 4/5 to school from now on...
Yeah she was facing me also. If I wasn't so damn shy I would've made a move!
I took a Manhattan bound M train through the Montague tunnel today, and noticed closely spaced signals. Plus, the train doesn't pick up good speed. Does that whole tunnel have time signals, and if so, why?
Because the Manhattan bound tube is on a downgrade, and the TA doesn't want trains doing excessive speeds.
Gee, I thought it had something to do with the homeball to the Nassau St cut.
The whole damned tube is GT'd, all the way up to the aforementioned homeball. It is a miserable ride.
wayne
Going Brooklyn bound there's practically no timers at all, since there's almost no downgrade after Whitehall, just straight into the river.
Manhattan bound, the tunnel sucks and is very depressing. I avoid Manhattan bound travel through it at all costs.
The Montague tunnel Manhattan bound is like the Steinway tubes Manhattan bound, nothing but timers. For some reason the MTA is "afraid" to have trains move faster than walking pace at the 1st ave crossovers, as well as the Nassau st switch in the Mont. tunnel.
Actually, I like the slow Manhattan bound ride. I like the thought of being under several feet of water. Amazing that man can build something like that, but people can't make peace in the Middle East. You'd think just getting along would be much easier than boring a tunnel under a river. Anyway, I'm becoming philosophical.
My second question is: Several street maps as well as track maps show that the M line and the N/R line diverge while still UNDER the river, before they hit landfall. This would be VERY cool if true.
Yes, it's true. The switches in both directions are under the river, with the Manhattan-bound tunnel to Whitehall St "flying over" the Brooklyn-bound tunnel coming in from Broad St. It must have been an interesting (and difficult) construction project!
I believe it one of the only places in the system there is actually a switch under the river.
I am at Hoboken Terminal Come to the Hoboken Festival to see our E8s tomorrow
I'm going to make a visit to the Hoboken Fest since its my day off. I should be there around 12PM and stay to about 5PM. Unlike last year at least I don't have to worry about buying a $4 metrocard fun pass.
For those of you following Ottawa, Canada's new light rail service, using Bombardier Talent trains, service will begin at the beginning of October (even though the start date was supposed to be Sept 4th, but alas there were delays).
Here's a website with plenty of good pics of the line and the trains for those of you who are interested:
http://perso.respublica.fr/chapelon/rail/talent/
Unfortunately the sight is all in French, but the pics are really cool!!!
I've been seeing them going back and forth on Carleton University's campus all this week on trial runs, and man, those talent trains are spectacular!!!
What's the problem that they have to set it for October?
A number of things... the first delay (it was originally supposed to open August 19th) was caused by Bayview station being redesigned so that there isn't as big a climb to the transitway station.
The next delay (apparently, don't take my word on this, I'm not clear on all the details) was caused by the Canadian Pacific Railway (whose tracks the light rail will be running on) raising safety concerns that prevented the trains to undergo test runs along the line. These concerns were raised when a supposed signal problem caused a Via Train (crosses at grade with the light rail line) to go BIE. It turns out that the "signal problem" was caused by some incompetent construction worker parking his backhoe such that the shovel rested on the tracks and tripped the signal. This doesn't explain why the delay is *four weeks*, but it explains how it could be delayed by a week or so.
Anyways, so now these problems are resolved and they are doing trial runs this week, and training the drivers for the next 3-4 weeks. I talked to one of the crewmen yesterday while they were stopped for lunch at Carleton Station, and he told me that the trial runs are going very well and there shouldn't be any additional problems.
Wow, very futuristic-looking. How fast are those things planned to go? It looks as if they were designed to run on the French TGV.
*Sigh*... Makes me long for the day when American transit systems will finally catch up to 1970's technology.
-- David
Chicago, IL
The trains are capable of 120 km/h, but they'll actually be averaging about 60 km/h because the stations are too close together for them to go any faster.
Incidentally, I got on board one of the new trains this past weekend, while they had it on display at the Museum of Science and Technology. Very comfortable, mostly transverse seating but still a lot of standing room. You can tell that these trains were made for long distance commutes. City council plans to eventually have them used for just that, acting like a light rail within the urban area but acting like a commuter train out in the far suburbs and maybe even the several rural towns surrounding the city.
That all depends on the success of this first line though. It shouldn't be that much of an issue. Even though the line will not be going downtown at first, it will act as a good way to bypass downtown coming from the southest and going west (and vice versa), and as well it will go through some pretty high density neighbourhoods. Where it's really going to help is at Carleton U, where despite OC Transpo's best efforts (the buses often outnumber the cars on campus at rush hour) the current bus setup just isn't capable of handling all the students. I know a lot of students who will benefit greatly from this service.
I'm kinda glad I had French in high school (back when The Beatles were still playing in clubs in Hamburg), so I could at least understand that Ottawa went for buses on rail (AKA diesel LRV's). When will transit authorites that want Light Rail keep getting sold DLRV's. All the comfort of Light Rail without the enviromental plus of electric power.
Actually, the plan is that once the system becomes more widespread OC Transpo will convert it to electricity. That is a major reason why they went for the Talent model, these trains are easily convertable from diesel power to electric power. The engines come in a modular design that is relatively easy to remove and replace with an electric motor.
The reason why OC Transpo is currently using diesel is because they wanted to keep the cost of this first line down to a minimum, so that the idea could be a little more marketable (unlike the LA subway, which is a somewhat extravagant line that was unnecessarily expensive and as such most people in LA do not want any expansions). They didn't see any point in installing all the infrastructure necessary to electrify a 6 km line that runs only three trains.
Once the expansions start happening and the train fleet grows, the system will be converted to electricity.
>>> Unfortunately the sight is all in French, but the pics are really cool!!! <<<
For the linguistically challenged, here is another English language site.
Tom
This is not meant to flame anyone. It is to be taken LIGHTLY!It's my personal view of subtalk these days...
Boy. You won't believe what happened to the other day.
I was posting on subtalk. Anyways, I got into a particularly aggravating off-topic thread about off-topic threads. After having people tell me that the sensible thing to do would be to not read the posts, I decided that I'd teach all you subtalk bastards a thing or two. So, I kicked in my computer screen. I'll bet you all learned your lesson, didn't you!
Anyways, after cooling off a bit, I realized that I could no longer use my computer. Rats. Then I realized that I could go out and buy another monitor. Aren't I am genius? I should work for the TA.
Unfortunately, the Only Computer Store that I buy stuff from is up in Queens. And I live on Flatbush Av. And, driving was not an option, because cars suck. I mean, your own personal form of transportation? What kind of crap Is that. ugh.
So, I boarded a northbound 2 train at flatbush. Yes! A redbird! What more could be better than this!?! I scrambled to the front window and took out my hankie to wipe away the drool that would soon be dripping down my chin.
We make very good time up until Bergen st. After we leave the station, we crawl past yellow signals, until we reach the point where we can view a northbound R-142 #2 train ahead of us. Waking from my daze, I wipe the drool from my chin, and put on my headphones, hooked up to my scanner. Apparently, the R-142 ahead of us is BIE. Some kid pulled the cord. Damn unreliable R-142's. They're already broken. We should keep the redbirds because they're more better. lol!!
We finally reach Atlantic Av, and I decide to be adventerous. I skip over the the Q platform, where to my luck, a slant pulls in. I don't know what a slant is doing here on the weekends, but I get in, happy as ever.
As we zoom across the bridge, I lament over the lack of N service across the bridge. MTA bastards, putting the Brighton and West End lines on the bridge, who cares if they get more service! I want N via bridge! NOW!
As we get to Canal st, I can no longer man the railfan window. The drool on the floor has made it very slippery there. Why is it that TA geniuses put car cleaners at the ends of the line only? When I'm TA president, I'll put 20 porters in every station. That way, they can hop in the train, and give each car a quick scrubbing at each stop.
At 14th st, we catch up to an N train. It's R-68's. Ha. Those hippos move so slow that I think we should rebuild them as slants. But, I check the clock at 14th because I can't afford a watch. I'm still on schedule. good.
We roar out of the station. most of the drool is dry and sticky now, so I return to the railfan window. Man, we must of been going 60 mph! Those signals blew by. Anyway, I get off at 34th st. I look at a clock in passing, and the time reads earlier than at Union Square! That's right, a slant went so fast it went back in time! I turn and smirk at the N train conductor as he closes up. He can only dream of going as fast as that Q slant. After the slow hippos pull out, I take one last glance at the slants closing up now and head for the IND.
I arrive at the IND platform. Suddenly, an E pulls in! What's that doing here I mutter. Sadly though, it's an R-46, And I'd never Board an E train without a railfan window (stupid TA personel).
I board the next F, and away we go. At 47th/50th sts, I find out why that E was there: apparently, the TA was routing ALL trains through 63rd st. Those stupid morons! Don't they know that 3 train lines can't operate together on rush hour schedules, much less weekend schedules!?!
Well, as we get to 57/6th av my damn scanner's batteries die. So, it's back to looking out of the crack of the door on the R-46. As we get on 63rd st, I see an R cross ahead of us. I cross my arms and suck my teeth. Accidently, I shower the T/O in drool. I don't bother to apologize, because he's a TA employee, lower than ameobas. The T/O closes the door, and I walk away in disgust. We reach Lexington, And we stop moving. After what must have been 15 minutes I notice Some guys in TA vests. I ask him what's going on, since my scanner's down. He replies that he works in stations, not RTO, and has no idea what's going on.
Well, you know what I did. I let that ignoramous have it! I yell at him, telling him that he's a TA employee and that liars are not acceptable TA employees under Rule 962z of the TA rulebook (which I have memorized). I Let him have it!
It looks like he was annoyed, but he just mutters something like "not worth the suspension", or something like that, and then the doors close-up and we're off.
But, the TA hates me. They made the train run local. They claimed they were working on the express tracks. I rode all the way to Roosevelt and saw not ONE work train. I get off at roosevelt, and walk the express tracks back to queens Plaza. After a thorough investigation, I must conclude that the TA hates me. The Express tracks had no workers on them. I'm angry now.
I walk the local tracks back to 36th and wait for any train. An R-32 R pulls in. As usual, we move slowly on the local tracks. I can't see out the railfan window: some selfish kid is hogging the whole thing!
So, I head for the conductor position. As usual, he's slacking off in between the stations. I also notice that he's talking to an off-duty conductor. I start talking to both of them, and they both agree that service is unusually slow. I say that the TA top dogs are morons, and they agree wholeheartedly. But then they get started on some TWU mess, and I have no idea what that is, which is why I'm glad I'm going to be TA pres and not TWU pres. Get it? TA and not TWU! I'm am just so clever.
Anyway, I made it to Continental, and I notice that the clock says it's been 2hours and 30minutes since I left home. Damn insolent TA bastards. I'm 15minutes late because some genius thought it wise to put a G/O in effect on the weekend. They should do it on weekdays when more workers are at work. The job would be done quicker!
Anyway I get the monitor. I'm so excited I can barely hold my bladder! I then curse the TA again for not having public bathrooms as I make a puddle on the floor. I pay my fare and head for the southbound platform. And let me tell you about that ride home!....
;-)
Life is a G/O
Off topic rantings abound
Do you have peace now?
>>Do you have peace now?<<
I won't have peace until the TA sends me a money order for $0.75. I had to take my pants to the laundromat because the TA had no bathrooms.
Wow, 10,000 post rolled into one! Is there anything a spunky junior can't do!?
C/O '03 BABY!!!!!
As I happened to walk thru Lexington/51 St. on my way to Queens today, there were a bunch of correction posters regarding the V train service this weekend. It will go from 5 AM Saturday morning to 2 AM Sunday morning (or vice versa, I can't remember), instead of 12:01-11:59 Saturday as previously mentioned.
I don't know why they felt it necesary to print and post a bunch of corrections for a couple hours difference in the middle of the night, but I'm just passing the word on.
I read it too. For a while, I scratched my head and stared. I was trying to see the system from the average persons perspective, but no matter how hard I stared, I was able to understand the G/O.
They fixed the G/O posters to prevent a Daily News Article On Sunday Sept 9 that would say something like "TA goofs on re-routes, Thousands die"
I can't get the TA website. It's 12:45AM. Guess I'll just go to bed without checking the service notes. :(
Maybe It's because R68 made the whole system slow down which caused the website to slow down.
Maybe It's because R68 made the whole system slow down which caused the website to slow down.
No, it's more like door (portal) problems. A traceroute shows that the site can be reached.
Har Har HAR De Har Har. It's probably and R-44's motor burning out.
I had that problem since 9:00 PM Fri.
In the 1980's an artist constructed an ingenious display of still-paintings that would become "animated" as passengers aboard a train viewed it from the side windows while passing through this abandoned station. I seem to recall a similar yet more primitive art display that was here at this station pre-dating the above-mentioned piece by about 10 to 15 years! Does anyone have any info on the earlier display of optical-art? Was it perhaps just inspired graffiti?
Thanks.
Never feed the Tunnel Rat.
http://bboptics.com/masstransiscope.html
Neat link, Dave... hadn't seen that one before. I don't remember seeing the display when it was really working... that was during my years away from the City and its environs.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Speaking of moving art, a company in NYC is installing something similar in MARTA for advertisments.
Advertising is reaching a new low
Culver route is 70% complete
Here's some new pics of the route.
http://communities.msn.com/MSTSTransitAuthority/_whatsnew.msnw
i'm confused. also, when i try reaching that site, it does not go through.
thanks
It's route that i'm creating in microsoft train sim.
try this link
http://communities.msn.com/MSTSTransitAuthority/culverroutepics.msnw
Look for me, 1 train shirt w/a light blue yanks hat! Cyall there!
Well, I just came back from the Hoboken Festival there, and it was a pretty good day. On display in this year's festival the usual round of New Jersey Transit-related buses, Joe Siatta's Flxible bus #699 and Newark City Subway PCC #6.
I purchased a huge stack of 8x10 B&W NYC Subway photos (from various dealers) as well as two R-10 car number plates #1814 (later becoming as #2961 in 1970) and #3187 from Branford's Whistle and Roll Sign Store set up there. It was good to see Bill Newkirk, David Ross, Harold Smith, Joe Siatta, Doug Grotjahn, Glenn Rowe, Josh Weis and others at this year's festival.
By the way, if you were looking for me, I was the one wearing the "A" train baseball cap.
-William A. Padron
Ugh, I missed you. You missed Doug BMTman, Todd Glickman, Mike Klufas, myself, and a bunch of others... sorry!
-Dave
Looks like I missed everybody, too! I was there from about 10:30 to 12:30.
I was there from about 1:30 to 3:30. It was great seeing many fellow SubTalkers (I was the one in the WCBS hat & shirt :-)
"Hats off" to Mike Klufas and the rest of the folks at NJT for a great festival.
Is the festival an annual event put on by NJT? If so, I will be there, as I got to this years event at about 4 pm. The equipment displays were wonderful, and the ACELA looked like Kirk and Spock were going to beam aboard any minute, but NYC Transit was noticeably absent. The E-8 locomotive impressed me the most, especially after looking at that avi. file featuring Traingirl, the lady who had a close encounter with a similar one at a grade crossing in the Chicago suburbs. How someone could miss that is really beyond me, but it did happen. What other events similar to the festival are planned in the near future for the NY/NJ metro area?
This was our 20th annual festival. It's been on every year since 1981 except 1999 (terminal renovations).
Michael
Great show! Keep them coming!
Thank You, We are proud of our locomotives and I am particularly proud to have been the CNYNRHS representative at Hoboken.
IF YOU want to know the gist of this year's memories of Hoboken Festivals and PHOTOS, visit Michael Steinberg's website at the Unofficial NJ TRANSIT Webpage.
He has e-mailed to me last year stating he has collected and kept the booklets of the Hoboken Festival every year since 1981, and notes he finds them very helpful.
Unfortunately, I didn't know where the 2001 Booklets were, so I couldn't pick up one. And the 2000 booklet, I have to look for it.
Michael Steinberg not only has photos of Hoboken Festival 16 and 18, but also has "Those Hoboken Nights", a webpage dedicated to night photography at Hoboken Terminal (this brings memories), and Hoboken Festival 19, which will be added soon.
It also has press releases of various NJT related topics (like Lackawanna Cutoff, Erie Dining car Preservation Society, and those historical trains I am not familiar of.) and footnotes of the Comet II overhaul program and a PHOTO, although most SubTalkers have seen it from this year's festival.
: )
Railfan Pete.
I was there from 1 to 3, then rode the Lackawanna...
www.forgotten-ny.com
Wow, Bob -- you are a real early riser!
I didn't show up till 12:45!
What -- if anything -- did you pick up?
BMTman
Too bad I missed you, Doug.
I bought a videotape of the Myrtle and Lexington Els from Subwayal. The video was copied from 8 or 16mm film taken by Vincent Seyfried in 1950. I also bought a book (whose title escapes me) about the unification of the Subways.
By the way, I was impressed by the interior of the Hoboken terminal. I had never been there before. However, it looked like the exterior could use some fixing up.
Next Year I will go, even if I have to take time off from Work
I was there from around 945 am to 1145 am- I saw Subwaysurf. Nice job, Mike Klufas! Maybe now that the festival is over...
Arrived: 10:46. Bought ticket for Lackawanna Excursion train, ended up with ticket #127 for the 10:45 as I saw it leave. I exchanged my ticket for #015 for the 12:45 and started looking around.
The Acela was neat (2006-2037[9?]), the train was empty at this point since it was still early, so I got to mess with the computer console in the café car. The Amtrak staff did a very good job at pitching the Acela to everyone, until I remembered the price I almost considered acela for my next trip to Philly. It took me forever to find the water cooler, I didn't realize it was the little spigot under the cup dispenser.
The excursion train was great, I was in car 334. To my dismay, one minute before departure two little kids and their mom ended up sitting in front of me, slobbering up the window and smudging little fingerprints all over. Between the drawbridge and Newark Broad we wrong-railed for some reason. There were several people along the ROW photographing the train as it went by. We managed to pass a MidTown direct along the way (we used the center track), while it was moving (not in a station) and when we finally stopped to reverse it took 4 minutes for it to catch up. Everyone, sensing we were going to reverse, got up and reversed their seats. Now, the slobbering toddlers were behind me (yay!), but now I had a window partition blocking my view. We then continue westbound (!) and switched to the eastbound track. We then reversed and returned to Hoboken, the horn shattering eardrums of passengers in stations all along the line. After Newark Broad, wrong railed again(?).
I purchased one of those $2 map posters and went home.
Just think, some day some hot looking babe may sweep YOU off your feet and YOU'LL be bringing YOUR 2 little kids to some Hoboken Festival, slobbering & fingerprinting up the window of a now retired COMET car while afterwards one of those kids you just mentioned will do a posting on SubTalk talking about some father bringing his kids on an excursion train..........
Ain't karma a bitch?
Yes, but they'll be my slobbering monsters, and to whoever complains I will tell the tale of Try Transit Festival 2001 and will have earned the right to allow such an occurrence.
I think I saw you today. If I wasn't mistaken, you look like a high school student. I saw you walking down the platform where (the Gladstone train was )???.
Also, I met another someone who had a #6 Lexington Av. shirt on. Do you or anyone know who he is?
I arrived there at 4:05PM when the Raritan Valley line train arrived Hoboken terminal.
I bought a picture frame of a steam locomotive, and picked up some pamphlets and booklets. (Darn I couldn't find the Hoboken Festival booklets!!)
Possibly if we got there earlier, we could've enjoyed a nice excursion trip on the Wild Wild West train, or the Lackawanna (?).
: )
Railfan Pete.
Hah, no kiddin, Light blue yanks hat, number 1 shirt, I was prolly the only high school kid there walkin w/a group most likely, WAVE OR SAY HI. hehe
You didn't happen to be rideing on my No.1 train on Thurday around 5:30PM did you? This person was a teenager with a Train Operator hat got on at 79 Street and got off at 23 Street.
Nope. But I am a FREQUENT 1 rider.
Maybe I'll see you around. I have a job 5 days on the No.1 Line.
Well I was there. Don't know if anyone noticed, but I was the one in blue jeans and a plain black t-shirt carrying a large black backpack and had earphones around my neck.
Had it not taken me more than 2 hours to get there from where I live, because of that godforsaken Newark subway shuttle bus (I reeeeeeaaaaallly hate that bus with a fiery red passion, btw)
AND because of trackwork on the PATH and having to wait almost 20 minutes at Exchange for a HOB train . . . ugh.
Once there, I checked out the Acela train (somebody on board was saying how the LIRR should use them . . . anybody from here???)
Also checked out the Comet II rebuild -- again with the pink and light blue! Well I guess it's better than the hideous brown and yellow.
Then on to the buses - D4500 #8204 was there, along with 2 MC-9B's (one with a restroom, one standard), a 30' Nova, a Metro D, and some older ones.
That Public Service GM . . . I dunno, I boarded that bus and suddenly got a very wierd feeling . . . like deja vu or something.
In all seriousness, I definately felt something on that bus - I got on, sat down and just concentrated. Quite vividly, I pictured myself in the 1960's, riding that bus west along Bloomfield Ave.
I didn't feel this on any other bus - JUST THIS ONE!
Also felt kind of the same thing on the old Erie train (I walked thru it on display but couldn't shell out 6 bucks for the ride after blowing my budget on an Italian sausage, two pork sish kebabs, zeppoles, and a coke - I mention I'm into health food?).
Anyway . . .
Yeah, so in all it was a very nice show. Also spoke with one of the NJ-ARP guys and discussed various topics, about the HBLR, MOM, etc. And with a bus driver out of Howell garage who sounded like she just moved here from Alabama or something.
Oh, then the ride back home . . . another whoop dee do! First, after an okay PATH ride to Newark, I miss the subway bus by a minute. The next one is supposed to be 12 minutes later, but doesn't show up for another 20. Around Broad St., this black guy who's been guzzling a couple starts making passes at a white woman who totally explodes in his face and they start cussing each other out like there's no tomorrow.
THEN, after both alighted at their disrespectful stops, the driver turns into a bit of a nutcase himself. He starts giving bullshit history lessons ("You might think George Washington was the first president, but you'd be wrong!"
"The Midnight Ride of Paul Revere - never happened!"
"Did you know McDonald's was started by two black brothers named McDonald who started selling hamburgers out of the back of a pick up truck?")
"We'll discuss this and more tomorrow!"
So one passenger asks, "So who was the first president then?"
"We'll discuss that tomorrow!"
O . . . K . . .
Then another woman shouts out, "You know if you drive this bus as good as you talk, we'd be there by now!" and the whole bus cracks up laughing!
I've spent countless hours riding on countless buses and seen many weird things, but I think this one gets the royal crown!
[Then on to the buses - D4500 #8204 was there, along with 2 MC-9B's (one with a restroom, one standard), a 30' Nova, a Metro D, and some older ones.]
Only a BusTalker like me would mention this technicality: The D4500 was #8202, not 8204.
You could have been held in Highland Avenue waiting for the cops.
[THEN, after both alighted at their disrespectful stops, the driver turns into a bit of a nutcase himself. He starts giving bullshit history lessons. You might think George Washington was the first president...]
That was one of the funniest things I've read in a while. Thanks. I really need these comedy breaks while I sit here doing college work...
THAT WAS ME! I arrived at about 4:10PM and left at about 5:10PM. It took me so long to get down there because I 80 was down to one lane. Then I drove to the Bronx and parked at 240 Yard and taken the No.1 Train down to 14 Street.
I was wearing Blue jeans with the Black No.6 Line shirt. I didn't see any subtalkers but I was suprise to run into some NYCT workers I know. I didn't think they wanted to go to a train event on there day off.
I did get some comments about my shirt from mostly my co workers. Since I was on the West side of town mostly they asked me if I'm going to wear any train shirt I should have a No.1 train shirt and others say I am nuts if I like the No.6 Line.
After the event I got on a No.2 train R142 to Flatbush. Since I known who the T/O was I decided to take the ride to Flatbush. She is one of the best T/O's I had she is a smooth operator. Hopefully we will work together next pick.
By the way where did I meet you?
i didn't meet you, but I saw you. You seemed to be looking around and talking to other people, etc., and I saw you outside.
Just in case, I am a student in the freshman year of high school.
: )
Railfan Pete.
I was hanging out with a Conductor and Train Operator both from the No.6 Line.
So your a freshman in High school time will go by fast. I still remember my High school days and for me that was just a Year ago.
I use to think high school would never end but it did and now all my friends are in College. I don't even get to hang with them anymore.
Although it was good to run into all of my fellow SubTalkers, as a whole this year's show lacked the vendors and train displays from last year. I can understand the lack of vendors because there was a conflicting railfan show down in Pennsylvannia (King of Prussia Model Traction Show). However, the only new and noteworthy train on display at Hoboken was the Acela consist. Missing was the ever popular -- Pennsy GG-1 (in various stages of restoration) -- and the U.S. Post Office train.
Another let-down: vendors appeared to have either exactly what they had left over from last year, or very little in the way of new books/videos or models.
Also, NJ Transit did not have any of the hand-outs from the Last ride of the PCC's which I thought would have been made available to the public.
The show not withstanding, I enjoyed the company of some familiar faces. And the weather was great! Also, I enjoyed a good meal out on the plaza (had Tai food), and the band wasn't bad either.
Too bad I missed running into Andee and Bob. BTW, I ran into an old former-SubTalker, Keith (aka Far Rockaway A Train), who's currently shopping around for a new computer. It was good to see him again -- last saw him at the 2000 'Autumn in New York' festival at Branford.
BMTman
Doug: Sorry that I missed you but I arrived about 1030 and left about 1230. It
was nice that they kept the railroad vendors separate from the
local people selling odds and ends. I did pick up many nice railroad calenders from one feollow who had very good prices.
Once the brass band started playing inside the terminal I left. It was getting a little too noisey.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Larry, I thought I recognized you (we previously met at Branford last year) at the booth where you returned a book that you had inadvertently picked up. By the time I realized that it was you, you had disappeared.
I was there from about 10:30 to about 11:30. I took so many pictures. I kept talking to myself saying, "Save some for the V train." I had a khaki-colored Yankees hat with a (7) pin to the observer's right of the interlocking NY. I left early so I could be on time for a 1:00 class at Queens College. (If only they ran subways there...) I got in the cab of the PATH car and took a look around. Got on the Acela, wondering whether it was a train or an airplane. Picked up the 2002 Subway Calendar. Had a good time, then had another good time on the subways with the V train, where I ran out of film. What a day!
R143's will be on the next set, Transit Pictures 28, due tomorrow. Try Transit and the V train will be on Transit Pictures 29, coming later this week.
http://rmmarrero.topcities.com/
While on the D-types to the dock trip I took a picture of an R-15 that was in the 38th yard. I got my pictures back and its hard to see the number. I believe (with the help of a magnifying glass) to be RD 338.
Can anyone confirm or give the car number? Thanx
If my memory serves me correctly, there is a former R15 now converted to a rider car with the #RD 338.
Yes, Bill; that is the former #6214 now wearing RD338.
I am more familiar with RD335, the former #5985 - I see her every so often in Southern Division, out there sunning herself with the work crew, the locos and the flat car. There are two others: RD334 (the former #5984) and also RD336 - the former #5965. That, along with the museum car #6239, is all that is left of the 1950 Stock.
wayne
Thanx Wayne. When I get a scanner (Hint to my kids for Chanukah!) I will send the pic to Dave P to put up on the roster page.
Today I went early to Queens to catch a gimpse of a V train (since I dont live in Queens) and when I got in there it was leaving, a V train. I was so mad. The train was composed of R-40's....which was strange of course knowing that they are composed of R-46 in November? Was that the only R-40 on the V line?
I saw mostly slants and a few 32/38.
The whole thing was a disaster. They have been trying to get people to punch at Roosevelt and even with a TSS there some did not and then got stuck at 36.
PA-E had a TSS that kept changing peoples call letters.
Lots of BIE's at Queens Plaza (at least 3).
It took almost 4 hours for the E to straighten out.
It is very fun to operate with short headways and few passengers.
They actually had someone good at QB master, if she was not there it would have been worse.
No wonder I saw a GO notice at 125th today, saying something about the F and the "V."
Where? I entered the subway at Continental today, and saw NO SIGNAGE for the V train. When I exited at Steinway, once again, I saw no signage.
The only thing I did see, were some handwriting signs in some token booths, telling people of the changes. I'll check again later, maybe I just missed all the standard red ink/black ink GO posters that we've all grown accustomed to. Or maybe they were not printed.
There were black-on-yellow service announcement correction flyers taped to the wall at stations like Roosevelt Avenue and Woodhaven Boulevard.
I figured that there was some kind of signage.
But according to the TA's own publicity, they tell us to look for the Red, White, and Black posters for service changes.
Well, I did say that the yellow and black flyer was a Correction, and the word "CORRECTION" is clearly marked on the yellow flyer.
>>>>>>>>>>>>Lots of BIE's at Queens Plaza (at least 3).
That's because the new signal system has incorporated two new "blind trips" within Queens Plaza. Now, if you come in over 20 mph, the blind trip will nail ya. Be careful.
There are bling tippers too or
poorly placed timers on D1 track, with everyone used to flying in, those GT signs on the express have been there awhile and no timers so you get used to ignoring them.
They were banging in NEAR hits of the timer.
On the plus side the 20mph sign bewteen QP and Ely is gone. That is probably an accident starting to add timers even INSIDE the N/B end of the tunnel.
No more radar gun at 23/Ely S/b then!
... and we'll dance by the light of the moon ... (sure hope they installed same)
Blind trips, as in wrong-railing on the Willy B, or
wheel detectors? I can't believe they would install
blind trips on the mainline in the primary current of traffic.
The way things are going, absolutely nothing the TA does suprises me anymore.
Believe it Jeff. Baffles the mind.
Railroad ... too fast ... gotta bring it under control for the ... safety ... of the customers. Or as that old cat food commercial once went, chow chow chow ... :)
I've gotta be more observant next time I'm through QP.
What track and approximately where?
On D3 track within the station limits.
Wait, I saw that today, about 2 car lengths north of the
hooligan signal (the one with the "S" aspect and the repeater),
is that the one you mean? The trip arm was on the right side.
I think that's a blind trip for wrong-railing.
There's a blind stop at the 138-GC station on the 4. There's a sign near it that says:
BLIND
STOP
2??1B
J
The two ?'s represent missing numbers that I can't recall right now.
Are there such signs installed at Queens Plaza?
It's on the northbound track? Is it facing the normal
direction of traffic, or is it for wrong-rail moves>
So you just described another obstacle which slows down the railroad more than what it already is and it just adds to the rush hour delays which will happen at Queens Plaza with the V having to enter Queens Plaza rather slowly and having to leave at 10 MPH because it has to cross from D1 to D3.
I'd be willing to bet if the problems today are a sign of things to come, within two years it will be the V going through the 63rd St. tunnel and the F back to its normal route through the 53rd St. tunnel to avoid the unnecessary extra crossover at Queens Plaza.
But that once again leaves the G local riders with a double transfer. This also requires people bet 65st and 36st to wait specifically for the R (joy), cram onto an F or E (double joy), and then run alongisde a broken moving walkway just in time to miss the G.
It also means that anyone who uses the E to get to/from Manhattan may take only the R to get between Queens Plaza and their home station.
Traffic-wise, your plan is ideal. But in serving passengers, it sucks.
If you are able to move your trains quickly, then you are moving your pasengers quickly. Therefore, you are serving your passengers.
The passengers may be moving quickly while on the trains, but will spend a lot more time standing still while waiting for them.
I realize the problems it will create, which is why I'm not counting on any immediate changes. But I think something will happen in about two years if the congestion problems prove to be more of a liability to Manhattan bound riders than the double transfer is to the current G riders, since there are a lot more E/F/R passengers wanting to get to and from Manhttan, which was the point of the G/V change in the first place. If their trips get stretched out by 5-10 minutes a day and they notice the delay every day is due to the train slowing/stopping in the Queens Plaza-36th St. area, they will complain (Plus the MTA will have their state-of-the-1960s-art moving sidewalk in place between Court Square and 23rd-Ely by then).
That "state of the art" moving sidewalk will be a joke. Frame this post! The TA has a hard time keeping vertical escalators in a state of good repair mostly due to their 24/7 operation, so I don't see a horizontal escalator faring much better.
That's because the new signal system has incorporated two new "blind trips" within Queens Plaza. Now, if you come in over 20 mph, the blind trip will nail ya. Be careful.
Are you sure? I was on an E this past Sunday going n/b and s/b side (when coming back) EXPRESS tracks of Queens Plaza and I didn't notice any speed differences. Trains come in and out just as they did before the signals were rewired and tracks were modified for the QB master.
The curves between 36 St. and Queens Plaza, the speed hasn't changed there either, according to my train trip.
Railfan Pete.
The Queens yard doesn't have R40s and 38's? So which yard was used for the V train?
Jamaica Yard held the R40's (which were transferred from the diamond Q) overnight.
I guess Queens yard didn't have enough trains for the test so they borrowed from C.I.
11 sets of R 40's from CIY
4 sets of 32's from 21 St. shuttle.
This was only for last Sat.
Wow! Slants on Queens Blvd! I'm sorry I missed it.
:-( Andrew
The V will be running all this weekend local between 71-Continental and 2nd Av. on the F line through the 53rd St. Tunnel.
Proof? Consult the Subway Service Advisories page.
Click from the menu at left "Service Advisories", then "NYC Transit", then choose the "F Service" for the V.
: )
Railfan Pete.
Well if the V is running tomorrow I may have some railfanning to do. It sure would be cool to ride a Slant R40 in "alien" territory. Slants haven't seen Queens Blvd since they served on the F line many years ago.
You've got until 2 am tonight to ride a slant V. That's it.
Oh well. :-(
That explains why the last car of a Q Train heading northbound from Brighton Beach around 7:00 had it's routes set to V.
The V is orange right?
Yup! (V) is ORNAGE.
That explains why the last car of a Q Train heading northbound from Brighton Beach around 7:00 last night had it's routes set to V.
They are no doubt using the Slants on the "V" because they are normally sleeping on the weekends, cause the Slant Q doesn't run then.
They have a whole fleet of cars to use. Come the regular service, no doubt you'll see R46 or R32 on this line.
wayne
Those yellow signs said that it would run till 2 AM on Sunday Sept. 9th. However, I did not see any evidence of it still running around 10:30 PM on Saturday nite.
V ended at around 10 PM. G.O. ended at 2 AM only because the F still had to run via 63rd. The 6 Ave. shuttle supplement for some reason didn't have service resuming at 21 St. until 2 AM.
I had a slant 40 going s/b and saw another one going n/b today.
There was definitely some confusion.
On the s/b V train that I was on today, passengers held the doors at just about every station between Continental and Steinway, to ask other passengers where the train was going.
I didn't see the standard GO posters that normally litter the Queens Corridor. I did notice that some of the token booth clerks had handwritten signs on the booth windows.
It was a great day, to be a local passenger.
I'm going back to the city now, to take a bus to the Poconos. Hope the ride is an enjoyable as this mornings.
I was on a slant V from Roosevelt to Woodhaven, I was en route to Queens College from the Try Transit Festival in Hoboken. A HOB-33 train had just left, so I opted for a HOB-WTC train, and connected to the E once I got to WTC.
Well, I boarded at 12:15pm today a Manhattan-bound R-32 "V" train (lead south motor #3946), and the side signs inside did say "Continental Av, Qns", "2 Avenue, Manhattan" and "V via 6 Avenue". All the other "V" trains that I had seen going Queens-bound were slant R-40's.
-William A. Padron
There were at least two sets of R32 equipment running on the V - they were 'borrowed' from the 6h Ave Shuttle.
OK they stole the R32s from the "N" *(Coney Island)* pool, rather than from the Jamaica Yard pool. I have a fairly current list of what R32 is assigned to which pool: Pitkin Yard, Jamaica Yard or Coney Island.
wayne
If the Vs are running, have they finished whatever work they were doing at 2 Ave regarding the hidden tail tracks?
R40s on Queens Blvd?? Oh man I should've gone railfanning today! Darn.
You mean you didn't go to the Hoboken (try transit) Festival today, and didn't bother to check out the Queens Blvd line preview? Wow.
I'm getting to ready to move hopefully by the end of next week, and I am dead tired. Even though I don't have alot of stuff to pack, arranging everything is soo exhausting.
I'm hapy to have been apart of this historic moment. I did one of the AM put ins and had 3 round trips. I had to report to the yard at 5:56 (when it was still dark), and didn't notice all the slants which were lined up, mostly in the tracks furthest from the barn. I figured t must have been a throwback to 30 years go, when these cars were all assigned here. They were already signed up as "V", so I just had to check the mechanical stuff, as usual. As I as signing in, an R-32 was pulling out. They said it was the only one, but later, I had one, and when I started lunch at Continental, another one pulled in about 2 intervals behind. It was a cool job. At 2nd Av. Nat FOrd, Chief Transportation Oficerwas there fr a while, and a TSS showed us the sparkling new facilities (at the N(W) end of the uptown platform, and off of the mezzanine on that end). When coming into 2nd Av., you get 3 yellows on the signal that governs the BJ diverge, then watch out, because after you go ver the switch, right alongside the wall,and in the midst of a bunch of banklights, is the homeball governing the switch between 5 & 6 tracks. You have to slow down from the D15 speed for it to clear. when the metal wall was up, you needed a call-on, but now it is just a regular bottom green or yellow.
Tony IND was operating on the line as well (his computer as been down, so that's why he hasn't been around).
I want my 1.50 back, we were promised construction on the Brighton Line that would have all "Q" Trains to run Brighton Express from Prospect Park to Sheepshead Bay. Someone go and break the switch south of prospect park please.
(I am just kidding) I don't want anyone destroying property that is not their own, to improve subway service.
no wonder Motormen slow down once they reach the home signal leaving the 36 street station! I hope when i become a Motorman on the b division i will remember this. This explains E's and Fs slowing into Queens plaza. Maybe its because of that curve!
I bet the MTA will be installing timers all over the place now
What are you TALKING about? What blind trip?
In almost every area where new signals are installed, the railroad gets slowed down. Two exceptions: M2 track from Wycoff Ave. to Knickerbocker Ave. on the M line: old signals were timers, new signals are not; and D2 track W line from 20th Ave. to 18th Ave. (passing Jack LaLaine): new timers are much faster than the old ones. But 98% of the time, new signals are much more restrictive slowing down the railroad, and in the long run, will actually prevent the TA from increasing service thru busy corridors.
CBTC will hopefully be an exception. If they're smart there won't be a very strict speed governor for the R-143s in Automatic mode, and areas with tight speed restrictions will not be overly long. This, of course, assumes the R-143 has better brakes than the rest of the fleet (I remember some numbers being tossed around, that NYC has 3.2 and most other subways have 4.0 or 3.6. I just forgot what those numbers meant).
Nope. The R143 is like the rest of the fleet. 2.5 MPH/sec acceleration. 3.0 MPH/sec full service braking. 3.2 MPH/sec emergency braking.
So does that mean that the way Queens Blvd has been for the past two weeks is "As good as it gets"? I haven't had a trip that could be considered even close to normal since this new signal system went in. One day it took me 45 minutes to get from 71st to Roosevelt. I bolted for the 7 at that point and was -only- half an hour late to work. This morning there was no stopping between stations but we were barely moving. It's taken me on average half an hour more to get from continental to 14th street, EVERY day. Coming home today I went to get on at 14th street and noticed a huge number of people waiting. Then I noticed the signals were red leaving the station. Finally a train enters. I waited on the train for a good 5 minutes but it didn't leave so I went over the union square and got the R. This was somewhat reasonable (packed to the gills, but at least it was moving) until we went through the switch where the N and R seperate. Then we were going less than a mile an hour. We pulled into queens plaza in 2-5 foot pulses, always coming to a complete stop, then lurching forward a couple feet, repeated for the entire 600 feet of the station. I've never before waited over a minute between seeing the station out the window and the doors opening.. until tonight. Every day I keep expecting service to be somewhat closer to normal, and each day I end up on a train that is moving slower than most people WALK.
The old IRT usedto have blind trips, and they were mainly visible on the Jerome Ave. - Woodlawn line, especially at 149th St Grand Concourse Station ( upper level, southbound track ) and on the Manhattan bound track just after Moshulu Parkway Station. I do not recall seeing them at any other locations on the IRT, but that does not mean that they were not there. They were removed sometime in the early 80's, so why are they making a comeback on the B division?
I got on a Flushing-bound (7) on the Manhattan-bound track at Grand Central yesterday. When the train left GC, it slowly crept along at about 5 MPH or less. We approached signal 522C. It looks strange as the order of the lights from top to bottom goes RYG like a standard street traffic light (I could tell by the reflection from the train's lights). Anyway, the motorman keyed by the signal (I never saw it clear) to the next one, probably 562C X30 (All I clearly remember is the X number), which was set to YY. The train continued to creep along at less than 5MPH until the train reached the R11 and WD END signs. Then the train continued normally.
Then the train got to Queensboro Plaza. As the train I was on left, I saw another Flushing-bound (7) train leaving from the lower level. We continued slowly to a point over Sunnyside Yard and stopped, waited about a minute, and continued normally.
What a wacky day!
It was all due to a vale break at 42 St and 5th Avenue in Manhattan.
Service was suspended for a short time so that was probably the reason for a Flushing 7 on Times Square tracks.
#9330 7 Flushing Local
Heard on the news there was a water main break near 42nd and 5th, and it disrupted 7 train service. Maybe that was a related signal problem. I was lucky and didn't get affected by the mess.
A while back I told you I attended an infrastructure forum at which the Mayoral candidates spoke, all claiming to be in favor of infrastructure. Yet when I looked at their literature, which mentioned their priorities, none mentioned infrastructure.
Well, I attended a Parks2001 rally today at which the Mayoral candidates spoke, all claiming to be in favor of more money for Parks. Yet when I looked at their literature, which mentioned their priorities, none mentioned parks.
If they are bullshitting about schools as well, then NYC will continue to spend less than average on all the things it already spends less than average on, and more on the things they spend more on.
When wehere timers first introduced into the system. Are ther any long strches in the system without timers.
Timers have been around since day one. They are only used on curves and downgrades where speed must be restricted to ensure trains fly down downgrades too fast into stations and overshoot and on curves where trains must be slowed to ensure trains don't derail and hit the wall. Timers are very good if driven through well. Those too fast will find themselves slower than if they went slower.
My Favorite timers are on the Manhattan bound E. They were so predictable that the children were impressed because when the signals cleared i said they will clear now and they cleared! they were like wow!!! lol.
Besides Alot of Motormen complain about Timers. I would rather have timers than to be on a Train going out of control on a grade. Just like when 3 freight Trains derailed on Cajon pass in California! tight grade, Trains lost brakes!
Besides on the E, all a Motorman has to do is come thru 67av, as soon as u hit the hill, slow down a little. Some Motormen know their Timers so well that they slow down to a certain speed, keep it in series, and u never see them touch their brake handle again! The only timers i truly hate are on the J line
they say
15 MPH LEAVING STATION
AND MOST ARE SET AT 6MPH BEFORE THEY CLEAR!!
My Favorite timers are on the Manhattan bound E. They were so predictable that the children were impressed because when the signals cleared i said they will clear now and they cleared! they were like wow!!! lol.
Was this done while the train was moving? If so, ALL timers are predictable, especially those on the Flushing line. The Steinway tubes timers and signals switch to "green", or a "green over orange" or vice versa, when the train reaches to about 25-35 feet before it reaches the signal. This happens down the tunnel numerous times.
: )
Railfan Pete.
In Canarsie Tube, heading out to Brooklyn, are a set of timers set to clear at 45/50 MPH; and motormen play these lights like cats play mice; they run right up to them and BOOM they clear. I guess it takes practice. Then there is GT409 on the "Q" line, supposed to protect the Prospect Park station in the event of a runaway/overshoot; all it does is bollix up a perfectly good express run. I had one guy driving Slant #4150 (the original Slant) and he did a nice job of playing GT409; he was doing EXACTLY 39MPH when he cleared it without so much as a touch on the brake. NICE!
wayne
On te Athy can be ridiculous. They are faster than the ones on the J for sure, but they still slow you down seemingly more than necessry, for gentle grades an curves. There are a couple of places where you go around a curve with a green, then suddenly yellow,red about a few hundred feet apart. Even at the posted speed, you slam on the brake and still almost hit it. Then there are ones that quite literally pop out of another dimension.* You see a yellow, and what looks like the next signal is green, but there are not one, but two reds in between there.
*Running down the track is like a one dimensional operation. You are mostly concerned about the forward dimension. But there are some places where the line looks straight, but there is a slight indentation in the line and wll to the right, and/or something in front of the signal. So you are running along, and then all of a sudden, this signal comes out of the second dimension. It can be just as startling as if it had popped out of the fourth dimension!
Timers are also used to control approaches to some stations [ST] and wto control speed when aproaching a Diverging Route [D]. Actually, TA rule #62 lists 9 different time control signals.
Both the E and F were running express from 71/Continental, to Queens(bridge/plaza). The R and V were running local from 71/Continental to Queens Plaza. I counted two R-32 trains running on the V, the rest were R-40 slant. Rush hour service meant there were about three people per car in most trains. The F actually entered and exited the connector from / to the express tracks, a rare occurrence for the southbound direction.
There were a few crews who announced / punched for local at 21st Queensbridge, was there some sort of problem or were they just misinformed?
Slants on Queens Blvd? Damnit, if I wasn't sick today, I would've loved to see that.
Force of habit.
You're kidding right? R40s on the QB line? That's great! Wish I was still riding the E/F twins, darn it. I would've wanted to see that in person. I bet there will be competition for the railfan window.
He was not kidding at all. I did not believe it myself until I boarded one and rode it to 2nd Av.
BTW - This was the first time I that I can remember 2nd Av w/o the "walls" at the south end.
Today did kick @ss. What you saw today, is what the Queens Blvd Corridor should be like every weekend.
Check this out, at 5:15pm, I saw a s/b R-40 V operating on the express track.
((Check this out, at 5:15pm, I saw a s/b R-40 V operating on the express track.))
Which is where God made the Slants to run on when he put them on the Queens Blvd. line in the first place back in 1968. No point in wasting that speed on local tracks (though of course back then the locals were likely to be the oh-so-lackidasical R-16s, which made the Slants seemd even faster by comparison).
Come to think of it, my s/b V train this morning flew from between local stops.
But I didn't like the T/O, he told me off.
I asked him if all V's are R-40's. He told me, "I don't follow that stuff. To me a train is a train, and I just drive it".
Come to think of it, my s/b V train this morning flew from between local stops.
But I didn't like the T/O, he told me off.
I asked him if all V's are R-40's. He told me, "I don't follow that stuff. To me a train is a train, and I just drive it". (/I)
I don't see how that is telling you off but I consider the source as well. The Transit Authority School Car doesn't have a mandate to fail those who don't know the difference between an R26 to an R33, even though there may be differences in car equipment. I had School car TSSs recently who didn't know that the emergency contactor circuit breaker on an R68 (EMER) is not the same one for the R68A (B+ Recepticle). In the railroad, we must know that. In the Authority, we blow for the Car Inspector. I hope there is more to it that makes you dislike one of my fellow T/Os other than the fact he doesn't care if he is assigned to foreign equipment on a particular line.
"I had School car TSSs recently who didn't know that the emergency contactor circuit breaker on an R68 (EMER) is not the same one for the R68A (B+ Recepticle).
Smartass!!!!!!
Should you eventually work for the TA, you will quickly find out most of your fellow employees are not railfans. Rather it is a job. You go to work, do what you have to do and go home. Furthermore, maybe he was on his first trip of his workday! Even if he were a railfan, how was he supposed to know what equipment was running? For example when I worked the E, do you think the first thing I did was ask the dispatcher: "How many R46's do we have running today?" If I did, I would get my head handed to me! As a train operator, you are qualified on all passenger equipment, whatever you get you take from point A to point B.
Hahahahahahaha ... that's priceless. Hate to say it, but motormen really don't give a winkle about what train is out next. Whatever it is, it's YOURS. While I preferred the R1/9's myself (they were an actual challenge) I'd get a 32 every now and then also. Brake on the left, controller on the right, same thing to run 'em.
When you're out on the rails, the LAST thing you care about is what you're running. While the operation itself is pretty simple and cut and dried, you're too busy exercising the old meat rom and making sure that what you see is really what you see and are ready to deal with it. You're way to busy watching the platform and making sure that moron on the edge of the platform isn't going to jump.
But I digress ... there is a massive TA conspiracy and we'll get to the bottom of it. :)
Brake on the left, controller on the right
Scheize ... well ... maybe on the standards. Gonna have to change my brand of beer, this stuff is making me dyslexic. Brake handle on the good hand, controller to the left. Arrrgh. Damn foamers. :)
Not just the BMT standards, but on all BMT designed equipment.
And Heypaul's cab.:-)
BMT. Feh. Doesn't go to the Bronx, doesn't matter. Heh.
Hey! That's not nice.
That must have been the V train I took a picture of at Grand Avenue.
I may be off Subtalk for a few days at the end of this week. The move may finally be happening if Melillo gets it's act together and I get help with the move (I can't afford movers).
Hopefully the final goodbye to Sea Cliff will happen on Friday the 14th. The C-3's, DE's and DM's will providing a welcome substitute for those lousy Orion V's.
I may be off Subtalk for a few days at the end of this week. The move may finally be happening if Melillo gets it's act together and I get help with the move (I can't afford movers).
Hopefully the final goodbye to Sea Cliff will happen on Friday the 14th. The C-3's, DE's and DM's will providing a welcome substitute for those lousy Orion V's. By this time next week I should be in Locust Valley.
One was on display at the festival, the other four were on a Gladstone Branch train that departed at 3:35 PM. I thought the one on display was a Comet IV until I got inside and noticed there was no center door. Still not convinced, I looked at the emergency exit card and surely enough it was a Comet II.
Differences between Comet II GOH and Comet IV:
No center door (no, really?!).
The seats are slightly misaligned from the windows.
The seats "click" into place when you reverse them.
The door open button is a metal square next to the door, rather than on the door.
There are fold-up sideways facing seats at the ends of the cars to accomodate wheelchairs.
The door control panels have plastic buttons with no rubber covering.
Trapdoors and the clips that hold them in both the down and the up position are different.
No builder's plate.
Here are the car numbers to all the GOH comet IIs:
5386 - Was in display train between engine 4190 and MNRR car 6003.
5318,5311,5302,5328 - Gladstone branch train with car 5012 as the cab.
I thought the one on display was a Comet IV until I got inside and noticed there was no center door. Still not convinced, I looked at the emergency exit card and surely enough it was a Comet II.
You needn't look at the emergency window card to tell if it was a GOH Comet II.
I wonder why you weren't convinced that the GOH Comet II car was a Comet IV when it had no center door.
I was at the display too today, which I thought it was a Comet IV car, also because it had the blue and orange LCD signals (the blue one was flashing) but I never realized it UNTIL I saw the display poster titled "GOH Comet II car" taped onto the train.
Another difference I have seen is that the vestibule lighting is with fluorescent bulbs, and I don't think Comet IV's have fluorescents.
1) What does the blue LCD flashing steadily on the GOH Comet II's and Comet IV's denote?
Trapdoors and the clips that hold them in both the down and the up position are different.
No builder's plate.
2) Please explain more clearly, as I do not understand your writing or I don't know what they are.
Also at the festival, I saw the Acela Express trainset (I forgot the track #) at Hoboken. I got inside with my mom, and I couldn't believe my eyes! The AE train was the most amazing train that I had ever seen. Everyone else would like it very much too, for those who like modern technology more than historical.
: )
Railfan Pete.
No builder's plate: The bombardier plaque normally found at the end of the car near the door was not there. This is weird because everything Bombardier ever made has it in the same general area. Usually, when there's a GOH, builder's plates get covered over by the plate of the company doing the overhaul. Arrow IIIs have ABB's plate, NYCT Subway Car classes R-26 through R-46 (except for R33 single and R36) have 207st or CMK's plate. But the Comet II GOH has no plate.
The trapdoor thing: The trapdoor that covers the stairs to allow for high level platforming is different. The clip that holds it in the open position is more modern-looking, and the pedal you step on to open the trap is also different.
There was a GOH Comet-II sitting in 30th Street Philly yard yesterday too. It was between 2 Arrow-3's (what are they doing there ???), and a green Amtrak express car.
The trapdoor thing: The trapdoor that covers the stairs to allow for high level platforming is different. The clip that holds it in the open position is more modern-looking, and the pedal you step on to open the trap is also different.
Do you mean the trapdoor that covers the stairs on the inside or outside?
Comet IV cars have a sliding piece of mechanism to also cover the stairs from the outside. When the side door opens, the door that covers the stairs opens up with the side door.
I still don't recognize the "builder's plate" but I hope I'll see it soon.
Also, if you notice this:
On Arrow III trains, (various, not all of them), in the vestibule area, there is a black, plaque-type NOTE with darkened gold letters stating: "This car is subject to lease as of 1993."
This I saw on car #1477 and of course, various others.
1) Does ANYONE know any other information this might pertain to?
I didn't get the company name.
: |
Railfan Pete.
On the PATH train trip my mom and I took back to Newark from Hoboken, I noticed a weird thing on the route from WTC to Newark.
I see a NWK train arriving from which I thought was towards Newark. Noooo. The train arrived WTC on track 5 from the opposite direction.
While waiting for the NWK train, I noticed a custodian (cleaner) arriving at the PATH train on track 4 which was not running. (Motors turned off, lights off, etc.)
The cleaner lifts a cover on the side of the train, puts a key in, then VOILA! One half of the two doors open. He goes to the motorman's cab to turn on the central lighting. He brings back several newspapers and garbage to place into the garbage bag.
The WTC train arrives, we board it. Then after the doors closed, we went in the direction OPPOSITE of where we came from!!! How could this have happened?
NOTE: There were passengers on board dressed in casual clothing when the train came in from what I thought was "Newark-bound".
Can anyone answer my question about this?
When we exited the tunnel out of Grove St. and was about to arrive JSQ, I noticed poles for catenary wires implemented into the ground. The catenary wiring was gone, or cut up and the pieces were still dangling on the resistors, but the resistor and the wires across itself were still strung up.
Does anyone know why the former catenary structure wiring is here? Was it PATH's idea to try to run their trains with HI-V wires?
NOTE: The catenary wiring placement matches up with the 2 or 3 PATH tracks with 3rd rail which are being used currently.
Answers and responses would be greatly appreciated!
: )
Railfan Pete.
Does anyone know why the former catenary structure wiring is here? Was it PATH's idea to try to run their trains with HI-V wires?
The Hudson and Manhattan Railroad, predecessor to PATH, was part of the Pennsylvania Railroad. Consequently, they shared trackage in many areas, including Journal Square. The catenary was used by Conrail (successor to Penn Central/PRR) for freight operations up until the early 1980s, when electric freight operation ceased.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
If the Hudson and Manhattan was part of the Pennsy, then clarify the story about why the tunnels on the PATH are built so tight with sharp curves - the story goes that a Pennsy executive told the builders of the Hudson and Manhattan tunnels that the Pennsy wanted to run their trains through the tunnels to Manhattan, and when he was told no, threatened to run them through anyway, so the builders came up with a clever plan, which was to build the tunnels with tight clearances and sharp curves so that no trespassing would be enforced. If the Hudson and Manhattan was part of the Pennsy, such an act of mutiny would not be tolerated back in those days, and the offending parties would face
a certain fate. Any ideas?
He has the H&M confused with the LIRR.
IINM, the two railroads shared many things --ROW, a station or two, passengers -- but not ownership.
hold up - lirr was a penn. property for a long while, but wasn't the H&M too, at least for a short while????
He has the H&M confused with the LIRR.
No, I don't. The H&M was owned by the PRR at one point in time, although not at the time of its construction. Ownership came later, just as PRR ownership of the LIRR came at a later time.
I'd check for exact dates except that I'm travelling on business this week (in Denver) and don't have access to my copy of Carleton's book on the H&M.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
OK, maybe I do... I do recall that there was a period of joint control, however.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Nope
H&M and PRR were separate companies, but had several deals in place. They shared track and some stations. Some of the fleet running between NYC and points west was owned by H&M, some by PRR.
H&M agreed to not compete with the PRR. Thus no trains from Newark Penn to 33rd street.
I've never heard anything about the rumor that PRR wanted to take over H&M. That hasn't stopped me from dreaming about fullsize passenger cars arriving at various PATH stations.
The catenary wire is from back in the day when the PRR and H&M used to have a joint operation. There was an additional fare and you had to transfer at JSQ to continue into Newark. The wire is still up in some areas. This question was addressed recently in some other thread, there may be more information there if you go look for it.
Most railroad and subway cars have a keyhole on the outside (and inside) which activate a single door leaf to allow entry to and egress from the car without opening the entire train. How do you think TOs, LEs, and CRs get on at yards and terminal stations? Teleportation? You can see CRs use the inside keyhole on PATH between JSQ and Harrison in the first car when an employee stop must be made, and on Staten Island Railway at Nassau and Atlantic stations in the last car. You can see them use the outside keyhole on NYCT at Euclid Ave, 71/Continental, 179st, 168st, and other terminal stations with a relay.
PS: (To Anon_e_mouse’s and Henry’s postings):
If you look you will find that all the doors on PATH trains have a key by them to open a single leaf from the inside.
Catenary wiring has insulators, not resistors. For the pedants, I know that an insulator is merely a special case of a very high resistor, but the design use is usually quite different.
I believe your guru/nemesis Train Dude has made this observation before.
John
The catenary wires are part of the reason that PATH is an FRA railroad and not a subway. From Journal Square to Newark H&M trains ran on the PRR passenger main to Harbourside Terminal (the original PRR terminal in the New York area). H&M trains ran on the same tracks as PRR passenger and PRR freight trains. The tracks were controled by PRR interlocking towers (DOCK, HUDSON, HACK and WALDO) and they were fully connected to the other PRR mains.
I've heard of it before, but don't know where it is, where's WALDO?
I pointed it out to you on our last trip. It's the run down brick structure at the western edge of the JSQ tunnel. The one with the red and white stripes.
I remember now. I just had to ask that question. I should get an overhead map of the area, put it on a web page, and ask the question, WHERE'S WALDO?
I did! I got on a R-32 #3598 going to Lexington Ave. And got a R-40S #4364 going to 71 Ave.
It was good. The only problem was at 67 Ave that the R-40S that I was on stoped near 67 Ave. b/c of a RED Light and the t/o said this over the P/A "WE ARE BEING HELD HERE BY A RED LIGHT. WE SHOULD BE MOVEING SHORTLY." 2 Minutes waiting for the RED to become GREEN the t/o said this "WE ARE BEING HELD HERE BECAUSE DUE TO A TRAIN PROBLEM ON THE RELAY TRACK. WE WOULD BE MOVEING SHORTLY." 2 Minutes after that. The R-40S that I was on moved on and stop at 67 Ave. That also delayed about 2 Other Trains that was ahead of the R-40S that I was on. And also delayed a R-46 (R) behind us and other trains on the LOCAL TRACK.
Where you on a "V" or an "R" train?
I didn't get on the "V" but I photographed R40S#4324 @ 71-Forest Hills & a R32 don't remember the # all on the "V".
I got on the V a twice. I was on a northbound E entering Roosevelt Avenue. There was a V across the platform. I got on that one.
I was at Grand Avenue after getting off an R bound for Brooklyn. While waiting for the next V, I saw V train on D3 track passing the station! A few minutes later, another V train, with lead car 4350, stopped, and I continued to Roosevelt.
The V's running today?
NOPE! Wait 'till November 11!
The trains that was RUNNING(And still running until 2 AM Tommorw.). Are:
I saw Mainly R-40S's,
Some R-32's,
And 1 6 Car set of R-38's pulling 1 4 Car set of R-32's.
Are these the GE R-32 or the MK R-32's? Sounds like this set is from Pitkin or 207st. yards, is it? Also, look in New York City Subway Cars by James Clifford Greller, in the R-40 section, you can see in the rebuild section that there is a pair with an F sign and another with a V sign. Hey, you might possibly see them there once you see some R-42 cars as surplus. PS, when the R-143's show up, the R-42's are a huge surplus for the CI shops.
I think the R42s will stay in East New York. If anything, they'll bring R40s over to minimize the variety of trains and the parts for them easing maintainence.
That's what I say. But there are those who insist on otherwise...
got a r40 v into manhsattan today. no one had any clue where the thing was going. it was a fun ride for 'people' watching... .,,plus a bit of a shock to see r40s on the Queens Blvd line...
After figuring out where the hell this "V" train is going, I stood back and saw the dumbfounded faces of New Yorkers wondering what the hell is going on with the subway today. "V", what`s that? Where`s the F? Is this a "G" or an "R", and how do I get to Brooklyn? Or, How do I get to Rockefeller Center? Boy the sight of the R40's on the Queens Blvd line is a sight. I haven`t seen them on this line since 1976! Mostly you get R32`s,and 46's. The R40`s broke up the monotony under Queens Blvd.
there were R38s on the queens bulevard line?
I doubt it. All the trains were from Coney Island Yard, which has no R-38s.
The last time I remember hearing about R38's on the Qns Blvd line was when the E replaced the C in Brooklyn back in Feb. 2000.
"And 1 6 car set of R38's pulling 1 4 car set of R32's." I hate to be technical but.....subway cars are multiple unit cars. They have electrical portions, they all work together as a team! This means that the first car works as hard as the last car and all cars in between! Therefore, the R38's were not pulling the R32's, unless of course, all 4 R32's had dead traction motors!
I finished the book the other and again I highly recommend it to all railfans who are also into a good suspense story. A man loses his wife and 2 kids after a faulty rr crossing gate fails, the railroad company covers it up and he gets his revenge by derailing several of their freight trains and takes aim at their experimental bullet train. Check it Out!!!!
I was traveling the Queens Corridor today, as I do almost everyday, when I noticed a TA employee on the s/b platform at Roosevelt, at the front of the platform.
He was wearing a laminated card around his neck, kind of like a press pass, which read, "E, F, R, V- Field Observer".
Naturally, I got into a conversation with him. He told me that he works in the TA offices, and was doing OT on this special project. His job was to simply count the number of trains passing him, and write down their first car numbers.
I got on an E train to Port Authority. As we left 50th, I noticed that the lower level of the 42nd st station is still lit up. I thought the thing was sealed off, and completely abandoned. But it's still lit up.
I also noticed some red lights that signify track work taking place.
I hope that my dream comes true one day. I hope the city wakes up, and puts the transit museum down there. In Manhattan, it would be a gold mine.
A Transit Museum at the Port Authority stop would only have one single track, with capacity for 10 60-foot IND/BMT trains, or five IND/BMT types and six IRT-sized cars along the 600 foot platform. That's half as much space as the current Court Street museum site can handle.
If they're going to move the thing to Manhattan (doubtful, since Court St. is being refurbished right now), the lower level of City Hall on the BMT would be the only place it could go where capacity would be increased, with three tracks along two 480-foot long platforms, which would allow for 1440 feet of display space.
Where would they put the maps and turnstiles at City Hall?
Either way, the museum should be in Manhattan. Even thought there would be room for fewer cars, the buffs would still go, and the merchandising revenues would be enormous. Foot traffic would increase considerably, resulting in more merch being sold. Especially with all those tourists in the area, just looking for reasons to spend their money.
Yes, Transit Museum Manhattan. The gift shop is a few avenues down.
"If they're going to move the thing to Manhattan (doubtful, since Court St. is being refurbished right now), the lower level of City Hall on the BMT would be the only place it could go where capacity would be increased, with three tracks along two 480-foot long platforms, which would allow for 1440 feet of display space. "
And what do you do with the 5 trains that are layed up there at night? What would you do with the bulk of the displays on the upper level of the transit museum? The old cars are nice but people actually seem to spend more time upstairs checking out the great historical displays.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I thought those tracks were OOS.
You bring up a very good point about the displays on the upper level at the TA Museum.
Lower Level at 42nd could be the Jr. TA museum, for lack of a better term.
It wouldn't be the experience true subway fans know the real TA Museum to be. But I bet the T-shirts etc... would sell fast in midtown with the increased foot traffic a midtown location would automatically create, even if there are fewer cars on display.
TD -- I posted about two months ago what my "ideal" version of the Transit Museum win Manhattan ould be like -- using the lower level of the BMT City Hall Station for the railcar displays, and building a connecting walkway from the south end of the platforms past the bumper blocks and beneath City Hall Park over to the IRT City Hall station.
The current mezzanine displays at Court Street would be located in that tunnel and on the IRT City Hall platform, which would have some sort of heavy-duty glass/poly partition to allow museum visitors to watch the No. 6 take the loop without danger of getting too close. That would allow the Museum to display a working subway track, along with the original NYC subway station to visitors, and have the museum trains stored at the original location of Alfred E. Beach's pneumatic subway tunnel in the 1870s.
Now for the disclaimer -- I know that in the real world:
- The BMT Broadway line would lose the lay-up space;
- A tunnel connector would add on a cost way more than what Peter Kalikow or anybody else would want to spend (unless they get really drunk one night at an MTA board meeting while planning on what to do the 2004 centennial celebration), and;
- Even though Giuliani will no longer be mayor as of Jan. 1, 2001, there's no guarentee that his successor won't turn out to be equally as paranoid that the "Pelham Bay Bomber" (just trying to think up the name the Post would use on the next day's front page) would try to detonate City Hall from 25 feet underground.
Given the suggesstion of a Transit Museum in Manhattan, my point was City Hall was more logical than the Port Authority lower platform, and if they do decide to shutter the east side of the Chambers or Canal Street platforms on the J/M/Z, even those abandoned areas would be better locations for a Transit Museum than at 42nd St and Eighth Ave. But I didn't say a Manhattan museum was likely, especially with the renovation plans already underway at Court Street.
I agree, in the perfect world the City Hall location would be a much better spot for the museum than 42nd St lower level (why 42 & 8th would appeal to anyone is beyond me)or even the current site. Historically, it would be the ideal spot for it. Oddly, in the real world, your idea about the plexiglass has been discussed in another context. Some entepreneur had sought to open a restaurant with a picture window to observe the loop. Of course, that idea was nixed because of security concerns. Perhaps when the new mayor gets into office, things will relax a bit.
By the way, such theme restaurants are gaining in popularity. I recently ate at one in Fort Lauderdale that's situated at a small general aviation airport. Every table has a receiver so you could listen into tower chatter.
If I was going to do the restaurant thing, I think I'd probably go for 18th St. and Park Ave. on the IRT instead -- not as historical a station, but the neighborhood upstairs seems to specialize more in trendy and unique upscale bistros, and putting one on either the uptown or downtown platform (or both) at 18th would be a "gimmick" none of the street level eataries could match.
Also, you'd need less soundproofing at 18th St. -- City Hall's bound to be a wee bit squealy for the diners when those trains take the curve. :-)
>>> I recently ate at one in Fort Lauderdale that's situated at a small general aviation airport. Every table has a receiver so you could listen into tower chatter. <<<
That sounds similar to what The Proud Bird used to be on a larger scale in Los Angeles. It is situated right by the final approach to LAX's South Runways, about 300 feet from the end of the runway. It once was a hangout for Continental Airlines employees, but after a fire gutted the place, it was rebuilt and is now quite up scale. I doubt that they still do it, but previously they used to pipe into speakers in the bar on the second floor the tower chatter with the pilots of commercial aircraft on final approach. You would hear them talking and look out the big picture windows to see them going by at about 75 ft. altitude just before touchdown. It was quite easy to match up the call signs with the tail insignia, so you knew which conversation went with which aircraft.
With a similar subway restaurant what would we get to listen to?
Tom
"With a similar subway restaurant what would we get to listen to?"
Something like this, "Control - come into the 8:32 F 179. My kidneys are busting. I need a comfort break."
"8:32 F 179, let us know when your wheels are turning"
"W4th St, 5th Ave and Queens Plaza, Hold back on Southbound f service"
I had my V train rides early this morning before the 207 facility tour and the Hoboken Festival.
But this evening I wanted another ride. So at 9:00 pm I went to W. 4th to catch at V to 2nd Avenue. After FIVE F's came and went, I knocked on the tower door and asked. The person inside told me that the "test is over." Hmmmm, I wonder if that's good news or bad news?
So it looks like the corrected poster is wrong :-)
I have sent our Webmaster pictures of 207 St. tour and the V trains.
I was at 23/6 going toward 23/Ely around 10:30 PM. In order to avoid all the rats on the platform (PATH's rats LOL) at 23/6, we got on an F to 34/6. Shortly thereafter another F came in. We sat on the next D to go. I saw no Second Ave. bound V's, and a Queens bound V did not show up either, so we rode the D to Seventh Ave. and caught the E.
I actually saw a V train N/B at 47-50 on Saturday at around 9AM while I was on a southbound D. I was very surprised that it was an R-40 slant.
Peace,
ANDEE
Most were R40 slants. The others were a few CI assigned R32's from the 21st St. to B'way-Lafayette shuttle which, of course, were not needed for that service on Saturday.
One of the many rail-related events going on today, Phila NRHS' Strasburg trip was interesting, except for the many dead-still portions of the ride. I feel sorry for some of the NY-area folks on the trip, since it got back to 30th St over 2 1/2 hours past the advertised! Equipment problems (apparently the RL1 was a bit tempermental, and the train lost HEP several times on the return run) got us started 1/2 hour late and it just snowballed from there. I can't understand the screwy loading situation at 30th either, with only 2 doors opened and the train at the far east end of the platform (and everyone was corralled from the 2 open doors, in adjacent vestibules, to the east end of the train, since 2 cars were being held for others boarding at Paoli and Christiana - even though the second car being held was one of those with the door opened). Even with center-door 2559 in the consist, which could have efficiently boarded passengers, this wasn't done.
Weather was fantasic but the arrival at Strasburg didn't happen until 1:20 despite the scheduled 11:30, interfering with some folks' lunch reservations (which the NRHS folks had advised many to do to avoid long waits!) and messing up the shuttle bus schedule. Instead of a 3:30 departure, this was pushed back to 5:30 to allow the promised time at Strasburg.
At least on the NYC trips, those who wanted to leave early (like me) had options. There are few, if any, available for anyone at Strasburg (taxi to Lancaster and Amtrak might work, but who knows the schedule all that well - I don't - and the cost is a consideration).
I liked the trip, didn't mind the lateness (although I did mind the sitting still!), and can sympathize with those who might not yet be home from this excursion!
Bobw's description of the trip is quite accurate. One of the dead-still periods was on the return trip at Leaman Place; the train sat for 45 minutes waiting for clearance from Amtrak to enter the Main Line, even though there was nothing eastbound during that time.
Click here for some thumbnails of the trip.
One of the dead-still periods was on the return trip at Leaman Place; the train sat for 45 minutes waiting for clearance from Amtrak to enter the Main Line, even though there was nothing eastbound during that time.
As you know the Amtrak Harrisburg Line is not CTC and still runs on a paper dispatched Rule 251 system (the last such line in the nation to do so). There are some TBS LEAMAN is at MP 57. It is braketed by the interlocking towers CORK (MP68) and PARK (MP43). However PARK is open as needed and is usually closed. Therefore the nearest point under direct control is CALAN R-THRON at MP 36. For you to open up a switch on the main line an absolute block needs to be set up. Any train that CORK as let into the "void" must be reported out by the op at THORN.
Of course the recent invention of the train radio makes thins situation a little different so maybe it was a MoW movement or something. Remember, on the HBG line if an "extra" train wants to enter the nearest tower (CORK) must inform the paper dispatcher (whereever he might be) and then the paper dispatcher must square things up with both his log and any other towers that might be involved (namely THORN). Finally the paper dispatcher has to find time to tell CORK to tell the extra that it can open up the hand operated switch and proceed out onto the main line.
I was on the trip too.
1) SEPTA doesn't seem to know how to dispatch an extra train from 30th Street. Putting it on the normal R5 bound track between regular trains would have made sense, but disrupting the R7 and R8 on another track did not at 9am.
2) The electronic platform signs cannot detect an extra train, nor post track changes, and are therefore unnecesssary, as they are redundant with the route stickers plastered all over the place.
3) The train didn't pull in until 15 minutes after it was supposed to leave.
4) The RL-1's are junk. 1000HP make them useless motive power, and they cannot do reliable-HEP either. SEPTA ought to get a couple of F40's off of Amtrak, and send them to Naparona. NRHS should have used an Amtrak Genesis instead.
As for logistics at Leaman Place, the run-around of the FP7's was stupid and wasted an hour. It could have been done during the 4 hour layover at Groff's Grove. The SRR could have delayed their regular train by 15-20 minues to accomodate us as well.
I did not like returning to Princeton Jct at 10pm as opposed to 7:30pm.
I am also going to learn how to get to West Trenton. The Zone 6 (Trenton) fare went up 40% to $7, no off-peak. Zone 5(West Trenton)
went up 10% to $5.50 PK/$4.25 Off-peak, no $3 for parking, no NJT $4.25 RTX PJC-Trenton, just an easy drive 12 miles farther mostly on an empty I-95.
I agree with #1. I thought the train would be spotted on Track 4, as did many others who arrived when I did (and didn't see any indication of where we would be). As it was, we did force a Fox Chase run onto the wrong track (#1 instead of #2). There were at least 2 station personnel in addition to the NRHS tripmaster making announcements about the Fox Chase train coming in on the wrong track.
I thought the monitors could post special runs. This worked well with the old system, which correctly posted info on the last NRHS run in March of last year (the Yellowbird special).
I was a bit perturbed with the late arrival of the train. The tickets and publicity info all said 9 AM. I arrived at 8:30 just to be on the safe side, since I was driving and traffic is hard to predict (especially with the construction around 30th St). I could have arrived a little later had I known that the actual start of trip was 9:10 AM. Of course, as you noted, we didn't get anywhere before 9:40 or so, and with the screwy loading procedure, the late arrival didn't help things. I still don't understand why 2 whole cars were kept completely open for Paoli passengers, especially when I didn't see too many leave there on the return.
Our car 'leader' said the same thing about the RL1, basically that we were taking it along for a ride. Someone said that that's why 61 showed up just as we were pulling out - since problems had already been detected on 60, they were preparing to switch it out and replace it with 61. I wonder how much later this would have made us!
The trip flyer noted that the RL1 was going to power us into Strasburg (fat chance!). I wondered myself why all that effort was spent into the run around, fouling the Amtrak main. I also wondered why Strasburg couldn't help us a little more. I knew as soon as we opened up at Groff's Grove we were in trouble time-wise, and as it was we wasted at least 20 minutes there waiting for the 1 PM Strasburg train.
I sympathize with your late arrival home. While I know fan groups like NRHS have little control over motive power conditions, line traffic/train movements, etc, people's time has to be respected. Would it have been all that detrimental to have left Strasburg at 4 PM, just in front of the Strasburg train? For a trip with no photo ops on the main run, and a half-hearted one (with the shuttle bus situation running back to Groff's Grove) on the line, losing an hour would not have been the end of the world for most people.
When I saw RL1 #61 heading into the yard with #60 already malfunctioning, I thought they should have tacked 61 onto the rear of the train and let 60 and 61 spell each other. Between the two of them, we might have had HEP for the whole trip.
That would have made sense and put another SEPTA crew on the clock for the duration (both good ideas!?). I was thinking, while we sat at 30th St with no HEP, whether it would make sense to open the doors and make a run without HEP. Then I thought about all the 'railfans' who would be leaning out the open doors trying to get that 'golden' shot!
I heard two descriptions of the reason why we sat at Leaman Place. One was the Amtrak clearance issue - we never saw an eastbound, although a westbound whizzed by us about halfway through the wait. I think we even had to move a little further west to clear the Strasburg 6 PM run (we were fouling the connection and the steamer couldn't properly run around the train?). Version 2 was that we were waiting for the 6 PM Strasburg train for photo purposes. While #2 is a nice idea, it did nothing for those of us on the train (i.e. the paying customers!) since we were not permitted to leave for any such shot. Those who didn't pay probably got good pics of this meet.
I can't find too much fault with the trip, although the tardiness doesn't respect the schedules of others. I invited my dad along and he had something else to do yesterday evening which was disrupted by the lateness. At least one other person on my return car (2559) was a little frantic about those who were going to meet him at 30th - he was able to borrow a cell phone to call his party. There was quite a bit of consternation among folks who, not knowing what time we'd get in, had to try and plan their next moves. With SEPTA Regional Rail on 2-hour headways on some lines after 6 PM on weekends, there could be some long waits at 30th for trains.
I was in the first car on the eastbound trip. A member of my party asked the crew at the front of our car and the back of the second FP7 about the delay and was told the Amtrak clearance story.
I also suspected that our additional reverse move was to clear the switch for #475's runaround of the 6 PM Strasburg train.
I was in the second car from the rear (2410, I believe - I know it was a cab car) for the westbound and switched to 2559 (the middle car) for the eastbound. Dad and I shared a two-seat out but decided to hog up a three-seat for the inbound. It was interesting when we lost HEP since the entire car's lights apparently can run on battery for a short time on the newer cars - we knew when we were about to go when we could see 2410's emergency bulbs go on, then soon after we saw 2559's click on as well (in addition to the A/C going out). While we were on 2410 waiting at 30th on the outbound, the battery must have drained since the emergency bulbs went off after about 15 minutes.
I wondered what happened at Groff's. I used the stop there as an opportunity to pick up my copy of Cinders (being distributed in the second car from the rear) and was passing through 2559 when I saw the crew trying to get the panel off one of the center door pockets. Since Dad and I were just forward of the center doors on the inbound, we figured they'd open up to get us off quicker at 30th, but they didn't.
We witnessed one of those 'Hallmark' railfan moments as we loaded up at Strasburg. Apparently, one of the NRHS' chapter chairpersons had some of her belongings moved from 'her' seat by someone and she really gave the 'offenders' an earjob. They tried to tell her that they didn't move her stuff but she wouldn't hear it. Another of our friendly 'fans' (I won't mention names, but later she was pleasantly trying to hand out Chapter applications - a different personality must've kicked in!) who give us such a great reputation! (We later found out that the train crew had moved things left on seats to the baggage racks, but didn't find out why this was done.)
Waiting at Leaman
Amtrak sleeping on the job
We miss connections
Missed seven fourteen
Could take subway and PATCO
Forgot to bring token
Caught the eight thirty
Got home after nine o'clock
Posted trip photos
There was a door screw-up and injury at Groff's. ALL the doors opened, even 2559's center door. A little boy had his arms out the cab window when it's doors opened. He got quite a bruise. Why he and his mother were hanging out there is beyond me.
Yes guys, coming back from Coney Island on the "F" I saw an EMPTY slants "V" train heading south around the curve to Smith-9 ST at about 830PM. I guess it was on its' way to the CI yard?? I thought that along the ride in Manhattan, I would see atleast 1 "V" in service and I did--another empty one made up of slants at 57 ST!!!! Well, I'm happy to read all of the other posts about you guys that actually RODE a revenue "V". I must say, it was quite a site to see slants on the Culver again--I havent seen that since about 1976!! Still, I feel that in November, regular "V" trains should run to Jamaica 179 to allow for "F" Hillside express service. BTW, while at Coney Island Beach, I saw a Staten Island Ferry boat docked at the Coney Island pier. I assume it was for people going to the new stadium?? THAT was quite a site too. Oh, and I erroneously posted that I saw R-110's on a "Q" express run--NO, it was a "Q" express of R-68's (HOW I made that mistake I cant explain!!!) Sorry dudes, Tony
A "V" train using the slant?
Just a second right there, the last time I heard about new "V" service running for 6th Ave line is Nov 11. And also, I know that the V will be using the R46 according the TA's car assignment proposal.
True, the "V" first day on 6th Ave is today.
True, the "V" will be working with F starting Nov 7.
Since, when did TA assigned R40 Slants on the "V"? Is it the TA just borrowed the few sets of R40 Slant from CI yard for the V to use for the day; or will they officially assigned all R40S to V starting 11/7?
I'm not totally against the V using the slant.
I just confused!
Borrowing for the test simulation.
the R40 Slants were borrowed from the Diamond Q train since it runs weekdays only!
Another Subtalker said this i forgot who :(
it was us :o>
I am still kicking myself for missing out on this.
wayne
While riding on an "R" southbound, I was looking out of the window, and after the train curved out of Whitehall Street, I noticed a short tunnel (on the right of the southbound train) sealed with a brick wall. WHAT was that supposed to be?? The ALfred Beach Tunnel?? I never noticed it before!! Tony
That tunnel was a derail, an extreme version of a timer. There used to be a switch leading up to the wall. If a runaway train left Whitehall too fast, the swich would move itself so that the train would slam into the wall.
As I understand it, it was supposed to have been a turnout for a line that would have gone into Brooklyn. I'm not sure where it would have gone. I've heard it might have connected with (and recaptured) the LIRR line in Downtown Brooklyn. I've also heard it would have connected with the IND line at Court Street. Likely I'm wrong about both. I heard this years ago and I couldn't find where I had heard it. But I don't think it was meant to be a crashwall.
I heard that there were two options for building the Capulet Street Tunnel, and that they left provisions for both as the final decision for placement occured too late.
What were the two options? The Mercutio option and the Benvolio option?
"What light on yonder dynamic brakes?"
Capulet Tunnel? Was that a typo or a name of a street I never heard of?
It's just opposite the Montague Bridge. :0)
(I know someone will quickly get the point of this).
I figured it out with the "What light" line.
-Hank :)
Poor Bill would be spinning in his grave. Don't give Shakespeare the shakes anymore, please.
Doc wins the prize!
While riding on an "R" southbound, I was looking out of the window, and after the train curved out of Whitehall Street, I noticed a short tunnel (on the right of the southbound train) sealed with a brick wall. WHAT was that supposed to be?? The ALfred Beach Tunnel?? I never noticed it before!! Tony
Tony: Toe two pockets in the south wall of the southbound tube were provision for Construction Route #32 "Battery Park-East River-Atlantic Avenue" Route which was never built. If it had been built it would have more or less duplicated the route of the "South Ferry" ferry which ran between Whitehall Street and Atlantic Avenue,Brooklyn fron 1836 to 1933.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Last night I went over to the Bedford yard, I noticed quite a few Pehlam Redbirds laid up in the yard. They were all the way in the back, car numbers 8625 and so on were sitting there with there lights out.
By any chance are these cars on there way to the bottom of the ocean?
That's really sad to see, I remeber going up to Hornell and seeing these cars getting rebuilt. I had a friend that was just getting me into AEG Westing house and they had a bid to do some work on some of these cars r26/28/29 I only saw them from the outside, and it was worth the six hour ride from the Bronx to Hornell New York.
While the Redbirds at Bedford yard may have run their final miles, there were still four Redbird trains operating on the Pelham line Friday from around 3 to 6 p.m. However, I also saw R-142A's numbered as high as 7470 in service, so time is likely quite short for the remaining R-29s on the No. 6 line.
By the end of the year the No.6 Line should be redbird free.
Several months after that, the #6 line will become R62A free as well.
Lest it not go unsaid, I don't think there is a "Bedford Yard". I'm pretty sure that it's properly called Concourse Yard.
I stand corrected!
This was my first time going to the US Open and actually getting off at the Willets Point Shea Stadium station saturday night Sept 8. Naturally being my first time getting out of that station, I have no idea of the maze at the mezzanine below the station is like. I got off from Flushing-bound US Open/LIRR platform (not the island) after checking out the V R40s at Roosevelt St station.
After Venus beat Serena, my other friends who had parked at Shea parking lot left on their way. Seeing the huge MASS of people moving so SLOWLY through the "manned" turnstiles at the lower ramp entranceway, I decided to look for an alternate entrance since I assumed most of those people are Manhattan bound while I'm Main St bound. So the mezzanine is set up with those movable gates dividing it in half. After approaching the doors to the exit toward Shea Stadium parking, I inadvertently thought the area across from those movable gates is still outside the fare zone. Looking around I do not see any more signs from where I stood.
The moment I moved those movable gates, a transit officer approached me and started yelling "WHAT ARE YOU DOING?!!" as if I'm an ex-con when I look nothing like one and without hesitation asked for my ID and started writing a $60 ticket for fare evasion. OK, I respect officers who fight crime and such but since this being my first time here at this station, and me heading toward Main St, and me having no criminal record, and God forbid I have my UNLIMITED metrocard why the hell would I want to evade a fare?!
He didn't even give a warning. He could've just asked me to step back out and I would have done so without question. I plead my argument to no avail. His response was "my sargeant is watching me".
Now that I thought about it, I feel the mezzanine area is f__ked up the way it was constructed. Soon after me, the same officer immediately approached 4 ladies also from US Open and who also started moving the same gate and writing THEM a ticket (also yelling "HEY! HEY! WHAT ARE YOU DOING?!?"). Shouldn't he be more concerned with REAL crime??? More serious crimes are happening elsewhere without being reported and for this, I was issued a $60 ticket without any warnings whatsoever. Was it my fault? Is he writing me and the 4 ladies tickets, knowing full well we just came from the US Open and thinks all of us are unsuspecting Out-of-Towners and carrying bags of cash available for penalizing to support his ass and not even have the audacity to give a simple warning?? Is this how they treat unsuspecting visitors at sporting events??
HELL'S NO!
Anyway, I'll be looking forward to the hearing. I'm not intimidated by the experience and of course felt no wrongdoings. I feel it is not right for me to pay the $60 fine for this. They'll hear a MOUTHFUL from me. Yes I have the officer's name. I'll make sure HE gets demoted for his actions. This won't affect my view of transit officers in general as I spoke to a different officer afterwards who was more "understandable" but said he couldn't do anything (yeah right).
If I were you, I would just refuse to pay it. I would rip the ticket
up and just try to forget about it, and not even show up for the
hearing. I've gotten tickets from SEPTA, claiming that I didn't pay
the 50 cent parking fee at one of the Regional Rail station parking
lots, and all I did was send the ticket to SEPTA, with a nicely
worded letter, telling them where they can shove it. Never heard from
them again after that.
I was going to ignore this one but I just CAN'T ...
Go ahead, tear it up, two words ... "bench warrant" ... it's the gift that drops you when you LEAST expect it. When you end up in front of a judge, or you put in an application for something, chances are good that a "scofflaw offense" will be added to whatever other reason you appear before a judge. Perhaps a collection agency after they've thrown the book at you and entered a judgement.
Like it or not, ANSWER the ticket. I have absolutely zero idea of whether this is possible, but if I found myself in a similar situation and really wanted to fight it other than just paying the political vigorish, I woulda asked the booth attendant (rumors are they're going away - here's another reason to do so politically I suppose) to VALIDATE the metrocard in my possession and asked how I could get a piece of paper from somewhere that indicated that the card was valid for a fare *now* and then used that piece of paper, killed a whole day (how much is $60 worth to you?) to appear before a judge and plead that there was no reason in the world for me to beat a fare with an unlimited card that was QUITE valid and take my legal chances.
ABSENT the validation for the validity of the fare, you lose. Sure you might be able to subpoena the list of other victims, have them appear to testify that they too got the "gotta do it, sarge is watching" to indicate the proper police discretion was not available and that this was a show tour" but in the end, how much is that $60 really worth to you in time lost that could go into better, more productive pursuits? That's YOUR call. But not respond? I don't THINK so. These things have a way of mushrooming out of control. Witness the endless stories of the "Parking Violations Bureau?" (COMPLETELY AND ABSOLUTELY OFF TOPIC HERE ON SUBTALK, Don't blame me if you respond to this in this thread, warned ya)
Here's some of the insane crap making the rounds on the internet TODAY:
==========================================================
WHAT TO DO IF YOU GET A TRAFFIC TICKET:
This system has been tried and it works in every state.
If you get a speeding ticket or went through a red light or whatever the case may be, and you're going to get points on your license. This is a method to ensure that you DO NOT get the points.
When you get your fine, send in a check to pay for it. If the fine is $79.00 make the check out for $82.00 or some small amount over the fine.
The system will then have to send you back a check for the difference,
however here is the trick.
DO NOT CASH THE REFUND CHECK Throw it away!
Points are not assessed to your license until all financial transactions are complete. If you do not cash the check, then the transactions are NOT complete.
The system has received its money and is satisfied and will no longer bother you.
This information comes from an unmentionable computer company that sets up the standard databases used by every state.
Send this to everyone you know.
You never know when they may need a break...
==================================================================
Notice the "send this to everyone you know" thingy? An AOL virus yet the pollutants of the human gene pool miss this (ahem) "wisdom" ...
Bottom line, two words, "bench warrant" ...
Don't screw with the police or the courts. November is *SO* close now you can smell that "fresh country scent" ... if the system's got ya pissed off, "lever time" is nearly here. Save up your emotions and show them baskets what you think of them by the levers you pull come November. In the meantime, pay up or prove your innocence - that's how the political sidewalk act plays out day after day. Don't get screwed by the typical quality of subtalk advice. :)
Aside from "Bench Warrant" - they CAN and DO garnishee salaries - My company gets them all the time for employees who dont pay MTA fines. And when you add interest, marshall's fees and the rest you wish you had just paid the original ticket or fought it the right way.
Yepper ... put in many years with the good old state teat ... you JUST don't mess with it ... give it the high hard one it wants, pay your dues and move on ... NEXT!
NYC is worse ... NYC is willing to shake down people who AIN'T got the scratch ... 'nuff said, I'm done.
If you ever get a speeding ticket, go to the courthouse, ask the clerk to file a motion for discovery. This will give you all the cops radar certifications. 9 out of 10 times, one of his certifications is out of date, and you win by default.
Amazingly, never collected one. Straight and narrow and all that stuff. But I'll keep it in mind for some later day when I become a professional geezer reprobate. :)
Obviously, you've never been ticketed in NYC. TVB has NO discovery. And the speil the cop goes through, he sounds like a robot.
'I struck my tuning fork on a non-metallic object...'
'...signs posted in accordance with regulation...'
After I was found guilty (and assesed my 6pts and $110 fine (reduced from over $150)) I canme up with all sorts of questions:
What's the frequency of your tuning fork?
What are the regulations pertaining to posting speed limit signs? How do you know the signs are 'regulation'? Did you measure the sign? The lettering?
-Hank
I would read Selkirk's excellent post on the subject - and try not to give advice on something you don't know anything about.
As for your SEPTA ticket, you don't know for sure whether the state will catch up with you at someinconvenient time in future. Tearing up a ticket is a stupid move in any jurisdiction.
geeeezzz........... if you had shown him a california drivers id then whould you have been arrested ??
& i dont get what you did wrong here anyway!!
Answer the ticket. It will save alot of trouble later.
Virginia Division - BMT
(Security Manager - DOD)
I attended the Mets game a week ago Sunday while the US Open was on, and after the game I noticed many subway customers climbing over those temporary gates. There were officers present but they were too busy handling the crowds. It really was a mess, with very little signage to help. And using the bus Metrocard machines at the entrance from the US Open side was really slowing things down.
My advice is to attend the hearing, but leave your chip on your shoulder at home. If you very politely explain the predicament to the judge/hearing officer rather than going in ready to give them a mouthful and having the officer fired, you are a lot more likely to excape the fine. Good luck.
The officer won't get demoted. He won't even be investigated for something like this. They always keep these service gates open just for the sole purpose of trying to lure someone into their trap. Cops have to write tickets.
In this case, I don't think the service entrance you entered through was open as a way to entrap you. I was probably necessary to handle the large crowds attending the US Open.
Whatever you do, SAVE THE UNLIMITED METROCARD. It's your strongest argument that you had no reason to evade your fare. People make mistakes, and under the circumstances, I hope the judge sees things your way.
Just yesterday, I was exiting 42nd st on my way to the Port Authority. I had an Unlimited Metrocard that expires at midnight on Monday, and I gave it to someone waiting on the unnecessarily long token booth line. A cop could have given me a summons as well, but I refuse to let the TA tell me what to do with a metrocard that I paid for.
One token booth clerk was working. The other was eating fried chicken, while the other just talked. Three women in one booth, while just one was working!
There should be two token booth clerks on duty at all times at this particular location. The line is ALWAYS 10-20 deep, sometimes more. It's been a problem for about 6 years or more.
There's nothing illegal in giving away an unexpired Metrocard as you leave the system.
Yes, the TA even suggested when it came out that lending the card was perfectly legal, since the clock on it is still ticking no matter who's holding it.
True. But what if a cop says, "you sold that Metrocard"? Selling rides with an unexpired Metrocard is illegal. The police will say anything just to give you a summons. It's their job to fine and arrest people.
[Selling rides with an unexpired Metrocard is illegal. ]
But the question is not in selling rides but the whole Metrocard.
Arti
"The police will say anything just to give you a summons. It's their job to fine and arrest people. "
Well, I see you are still fighting mental health.....
If the police catch me swiping someone in at a turnstile, I am getting a fine, maybe arrested. They won't care if I say, "I just letting my friend use my Metrocard".
If I give someone my Metrocard, and they pass through a turnstile, then hand me back my card, I will probably get a fine as well.
The police will just give out the summons, as they have a quota to meet. Then the recipient of the summons will have his day in court to plead his case.
That's only with an unlimited Metrocard and not with a pay-per-ride card.
AND IF MY GRANDMOTHER HAD WHEELS SHE COULD BE A SHOPPING CART
What is your problem. I could see if you had an incident where you were falsely accused but you didn't. Instead, you invent an incident and use the artificial outcome of it to indict over 30,000 largely honest, hard working, underpaid civil servants. You stated that they would invent charges to make arrests and/or give out summonses. I don't know that to be true and unless you can back it up with facts, it's just more BS from you. In the original post, the person who received the summons actually did commit a violation of law, innocent or not. It is not up to us or the police officer to judge the person. He's there to enforce the law. He determined that a summons was the appropriate remedy. You were not there nor were I. That's why we have impartial courts to ajudicate such matters. Please grow up......
It's amusing how many folks don't know what goes on on the civil service side of the equation. The cop is there to enforce the law. If you do something right in front of their face, they are OBLIGATED to "do you" ... little thing called "dereliction of duty" (which is a CRIME) if they don't. While cops are granted a degree of discretion, if they don't play it by the book, they can be in a heap of trouble.
Of course, most people never think of the other side's situation. It's a CONSPIRACY, man! :)
It wasn't until reading this thread that I realized that there was a shortage of crime in NYC. How else to explain these desparate efforts by NYPD to meet their quotas? What I want to know is how they make sure that they only make false accusations against people from Queens.
A shortage of crimes, and maybe too many cops.
???
when i was in germany a week, i saw 2 empty police cars. that's it. no cops to be found anywhere, unless they were in plain cloths... ?
flame on!
Heh. It's that keen police nose of course ... anyone coming across the border from Queens is imbued with that heavy heating oil smell from the Steinway tubes. Just like a hophead, you can smell Queens residents from miles away. :)
>>> If the police catch me swiping someone in at a turnstile, I am getting a fine, maybe arrested. They won't care if I say, "I just letting my friend use my Metrocard".
If I give someone my Metrocard, and they pass through a turnstile, then hand me back my card, I will probably get a fine as well. <<<
If you get a ticket in either of the above instances, it would be a correct ticket. You can give your unlimited Metrocard to someone else, but you cannot use it to allow someone else to enter the subway. The card is meant to be used by only one person at a time. If you lend it to a friend and he uses it to take a trip and on his return he gives it back to you, that is legal. Swiping him through a turnstile or having him hand you the card while he is still in the system allows more than one person to use the card at the same time, and therefore is illegal.
The unlimited Metrocard is a license for the holder of the card to travel on the transit system. When the card is transferred, the license is transferred with it.
Tom
An excellent explanation. Elegantly put.
There should be two token booth clerks on duty at all times at this particular location. The line is ALWAYS 10-20 deep, sometimes more. It's been a problem for about 6 years or more.
How many vending machines are there at this particular location? If there was at least one, with a minimal line, then I don't feel for those having to wait in line there.
If there aren't any, then they need to have them installed, instead of wasting money on another agent.
There are about 8 vending machines. But some people coming in from out of town feel comfortable with a human being.
And people comeing from out of town might also wnat a map. At stations like 42nd the should always have a person.
Maps can be held in brochure cases. And should.
Except that kids would just take all of them at once and scatter them on the tracks or in the sewer.
But if people were nicer and more considerate, this would be a good idea.
That's the stupidest thing I've ever heard.
Even if it were true, it still doesn't justify a huge salary just to pay a map dispensing monkey.
But some people coming in from out of town feel comfortable with a human being.
I have nothing against people who want to use the booth. For that, they have to PAY for the priviledge. No unlimited ride cards should be sold in the booth, pay-per-ride cards should come with a 10% penalty (15% if under $15.00) instead of bonus when sold from the booth, and tokens would remain, but would cost $2.50 per unit, while the standard fare remains $1.50.
I have nothing against people who want to use the booth. For that, they have to PAY for the priviledge. No unlimited ride cards should be sold in the booth, pay-per-ride cards should come with a 10% penalty (15% if under $15.00) instead of bonus when sold from the booth, and tokens would remain, but would cost $2.50 per unit, while the standard fare remains $1.50.
What are you saying? Why should MetroCards come with a penalty?
Priviledge is supposed to be "privilege".
Just because visitors of the City use the token booth, why are you blaming them to pay extra money to buy Cards or tokens at the booth? Such discrimination I should say.
If YOU were an out-of-towner, you wouldn't be so happy with your idea.
Please clear up what point you are trying to make.
: )
Railfan Pete.
[Priviledge is supposed to be "privilege". ]
What's that supposed to mean?
BTW his point was very clear.
Arti
I dont understand this one. I have visited Washington DC and Chicago both places only use Vending Machines. In both places people learned quickly and brought there cards. I see this also everyday at 42nd ST. Why arent more TA REPS forcing people to use machines that at some times sit there empty?
They can pass out maps. They did pass out those nice card holders a month ago. I have not gone to a booth for a fare since the MVM's were installed.
exactly!!!
Arti
What I am reading is that visitors of the Big Apple should pay extra (or would pay extra) just because for being out-of-towners.
And New Yorkers can carry their cards, use the machines, and pay the regular fare.
Do you pick up any other points regarding this?
"Priviledge" is misspelled. It's supposed to be "privilege".
It's ironic how members of this board don't bother to punch in the correct spelling, when at the same time, they're acting as a father to me mainly because of age differences (of course!)
Railfan Pete.
American Pig said that anyone (not just out-of-towners) who want to use the token booth should have to pay extra and not be able to buy as wide a range of metrocards. Anyone (including out-of-towners) who use the MVMs would just pay the regular fare, as well as having the option of purchasing unlimited ride metrocards.
Basically, anyone on this board (or in the universe, for that matter) criticizing anyone else for bad spelling, grammar, or anything else of that nature is the pot calling the kettle black.
Seth
It's ironic how members of this board don't bother to punch in the correct spelling, when at the same time, they're acting as a father to me mainly because of age differences (of course!)
I don't care about your age, I don't judge people based on the number of times the Earth went around the Sun since that person was born.
As for spelling, you must be very petty to bother.
Did you, at any time, wonder what I meant by typing "priviledge?" I guess not. The primary purpose of language is to convey ideas. If those ideas are clearly put across, a single spelling error is irrelevant.
From this point forward, I will be responding to EVERY ONE of your messages with spelling and grammar corrections until you get annoyed and shut the [BLEEP] up.
What I am reading is that visitors of the Big Apple should pay extra (or would pay extra) just because for being out-of-towners.
You're not asking a question, omit the words "what" and "is".
Your most blatant error above is "....because for being..." which should be "....because of being..."
And New Yorkers can carry their cards, use the machines, and pay the regular fare.
Either get rid of the "and" in the beginning of this sentence, or combine it with the previous sentence.
"Priviledge" is misspelled. It's supposed to be "privilege".
Semicolon.
It's ironic how members of this board don't bother to punch in the correct spelling, when at the same time, they're acting as a father to me mainly because of age differences (of course!)
Sorry, but multiple people (they) cannot be acting as one person (a father).
The proper way is to write "they're acting as fathers to me..."
["Priviledge" is misspelled. It's supposed to be "privilege". ]
Still the question remains, what was that sentence supposed to mean?
Arti
I have nothing against people who want to use the booth. For that, they have to PAY for the priviledge.
So if you have nothing against the people using the booth, do you have something against the booth itself? I used to pay more for the priviledge of using an ATM machine than I could by going to the teller. There shouldn't be any penalties for using the booth. The time used to stand on line is still worth it to todays folks apparently and the discrimination of charging more to use a teller may in fact do the booths more good than harm when it comes to the federal funding involved in transit improvements and the ADA.
So if you have nothing against the people using the booth, do you have something against the booth itself?
Yes, I DO have something against the booth itself. It is much cheaper to operate an ATM than to hire a teller. The money is better spent on proving more frequent service and cleaner stations.
but if you believe thy will actually use the extra money to provide more/better service, you must be kidding yourself. =)
So the expenditure for do-nothing booth agents is therefore justified?
who should get the dough, someone withiout the skill to get a better job, or a raise for some fat cat running the mta? or maybe better service/reduced fare... ?
questions to ponder...
Well, obviously the latter.
It will most likely manifest itself as slower fare hikes.
Are you the same person that told the gas stations that they could make MORE MONEY by charging people more for using cash instead of credit cards. Remember use your --- card and save --%.
Are you the same person that told the gas stations that they could make MORE MONEY by charging people more for using cash instead of credit cards.
I've never seen a gas station that does that.
Of course, I never pay in cash at a gas station.
Except that it seems to run in the other direction, at least until recently. Many stations charged MORE for credit card payments.
-Hank
Except that it seems to run in the other direction, at least until recently. Many stations charged MORE for credit card payments.
Sure, because they are charged a percentage by the credit card company. Debit card usage also costs them, normally on a per-transaction basis... depending on the debit card used, up to 45 cents.
Personally, I prefer to use cash - can't ever remember it being turned down :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Well, OK maybe the officer won't get demoted. But I feel it is sneaky and uncalled for, for an officer. Why couldn't the MTA just built a permanent ceiling-high gate dividing along the entire mezzanine? I'm sure they can afford it afterall most other stations have gone through some kind of new construction over the years (i.e. metrocard turnstiles). Also if those "victims" didn't fight and just mail in the fine, wouldn't they end up with the money?
Maybe they just find it to be a good source of income by luring the unsuspected.
I understand what the service gate is for. I just felt that instead of a transit officer, it should have been a guide to lead those people back out of the gate and state that the other side is within the fare zone. How hard is that?
Once I was at Brighton Beach, some guy bought a Fun Pass. After buying it, he realized he didn't want it and sold it to me for $2.00.
For somebody who has aspirations to become a Train Operator some day, you have a very poor habit of looking at things one sided. I am speaking in refernce to the 3 people in the booth, with only "one working." Maybe you should give people the benefit of the doubt sometimes. Maybe the person "working" was the lunch refief. Maybe the person eating was the clerk who was out to lunch. Some of those small rooms reserved for the clerks to eat their lunch are leaky. Underground stations have rats lurking. Wouldn't a rat smell the food and investigate? So it is better to eat in the booth! Maybe the other person was an off duty clerk stopping by for a visit, or a union rep, or a station supervisor. Sure, I may be speculating, but you are condemning and assuming the worst! Finally, the fact of the matter is the vending machines are there for people to use so the TA can cut jobs. Do I like it? Absolutely not! But these decisions are made by TA suits.
I'm sure she was out to lunch. She had to be, because if she was not on her lunch break, while eating and not working, we both know she would lose her job, or be disciplined in some way. But it always seems to me, as though whenever there are two clerks in a booth, whether it be at Continental, 68th/Lex, or 42nd, one is working, and the other(s) are not. It's rare to see two clerks working at the same time. Not impossible to find. Just rare.
Never try to teach a penguin to dance. it's a waste of time and it pisses the penguin off. I'm now convinced that LuchAAA is a penguin and trying to get him to think rationally is a waste of time. I'm saving a collection of his greatest posts, though. If he's ever in school car, they should really be a hit with the other guys in school car.
Dude, you hit the nail on the head.
It'll make for one HELL of a roll curtain. :)
Well, it's been a long time since I worked with direct customer contact, but when I did work retail, there was a rule that we shouldn't eat lunch at our posts. Otherwise, citizens might think we were slacking (as was thought here).
We were instructed to be out of sight for our breaks.
So did I when I was working in banking years ago. The lunch area was clean, dry and rodent free. The subway isn't.
The lunch area was clean, dry and rodent free. The subway isn't.
The TWU should have reported that the lunch areas are not kept clean nor rodent free to OSHA long ago. If such complaints are not on file, then I would find such allegations very suspicious.
Stephen, I can vouch that some (many?) of the crew facilities are less than sanitary and can even be considered primitive by current standards. As an RCI, nearly 2 decades ago, I had to content myself with warming my lunch on an electric heater. Today microwaves are available but many employees are still using those same, unrenovated rooms.
I can vouch that some (many?) of the crew facilities are less than sanitary and can even be considered primitive by current standards.
I would have assumed as much by extrapolating how NYCT maintains many (most?) of its public conveniences.
The question is how management and labor should resolve the problem. Other posters have pointed out that many (most?) companies forbid employees who deal person-to-person with the public to eat at their work station. NYCT management and labor appear to have agreed to pursue a different policy that presents opportunites for customer dissatisfaction. I believe this policy is shortsighted for both.
I don't know what the station dept. policy is regarding eating in the booth. I would tend to think it's frowned upon if not prohibited. Subway-Buff would be able to clarify that point. There are two ways for the problem to be dealt with in the TA world. For work-units with skilled laborers, one can fund their own renovation of their quarters using in-house labor. I was able to get new facilities approved for many of my employees. It meant getting capital funding approved several years early by piggybacking the project onto another. Suprisingly, despite my goal, I received no support from the TWU. It seems that where management is a little aggresive or a little creative and there is a little cooperation between labor and management, things can change.
The roof of the "crew room" on the New Lots platform caved in due to all the acid from the bird droppings.
From what I hear, there are far more serious structural problems afoot at Livonia Yd. When told that there was no money allocated to make the needed repairs, one senior TA Executive told the facilities group to find the money and get it fixed.....
In all honesty, I was wrong to point out that one of the clerks was eating while in the token booth.
It's none of the customers business. Employees are entitled to a lunch break.
revenue enhancement !! ........like the meter maids !!!
I know what happend. The Upper ramp is for Exit Only because there is no Fare control.
I had something similar happen about 10 years ago, details are not important. If you decide to go for the hearing at the Transit Adjudication Bureau here's what will happen: you will get a hearing they will tell you that they need the officer there and offer to schedule another hearing. If the officer does not show up (very likely) you are off but you have wasted 2 days. IMO it is just not worth it for a lousy $60. My advice pay it and chalk it up to experience.You can't fight city hall. Whatever you do DO NOT ignore the ticket, it will just increase and eventually they will get the money by attaching your salary, as others have stated. Aditionally, if you ever want to go for a job with the TA it will come back to haunt you. It sucks but what are you gonna do?
Peace,
ANDEE
IMO it is just not worth it for a lousy $60.
It's not $60 that's at stake, it's not letting the evil regime win.
If he can call in sick or get a day off and still get paid, it's worth it.
You can't fight city hall.
This is a horrible attitude that belongs nowhere in a democratic society.
You CAN fight City Hall, don't let the regime beat you.
That's correct. Of course I can afford the $60 being a F/T employee. Paying it means an admission of guilt. That's why I will show up at the hearing, state my case (calmly), and have it thrown out. I'm not the only one victimized so I'm not alone.
I wonder if anybody in the past have made the same argument? Is there a reason why a permanent ceiling-high gate was not built along the middle of the mezzanine where those service gates are? MTA does construction all over the place, and you would think a station like Willets Point Shea Stadium would also have it being a stop with a very high visitor rate. I guess I am wrong.
This is a common police tactic every now and again (likely to increase revenue or some other reason). I recall that for awhile, perhaps in the late 80s if i recall right, they left open large gates up to the platforms at many of the elevated N astoria stops, with a cop posted at either end of the steps on the platform. you walk in, BAM. $60 ticket. it went on for awhile...
I feel bad because it affects out-of-towners like those 4 ladies I mentioned. What kind of legacy does this leave in their minds? That the officers set up those gates, and aren't nice enough to politely instruct us to step back and come around the other way. Would this affect the visitors decision to come back next time? Unsure of what other "trap" the officers may set up next. And at this station where the officers know there will be plenty of unsuspecting people visiting there for the first time not knowing where to go. Is it really appropriate to penalize them rather than advise them???
I think that officer should give us first-timers a break! If I had known for sure that other side is inside the fare zone I wouldn't have committed this violation. The way it was all set up is just not completely ethical.
The word you are trying to use is "entrapment." It happens all the time here in NYC. The TA does it to train operators when they intentionally set signals to red. They do it to conductors when they take down the conductor boards. So the Transit NYPD bureau entraps the customers too. NYPD has females posing as prostitutes trying and suceeding in seducing males into a financial transaction and then arresting said males and seizing their cars as well. If it's not about power brokers trying to make a name for themselves which looks good on the resume when vying for a promotion, it is also about the city getting the almighty buck out of peoples wallets.
Of course, nobody puts a gun to your head and says, "Accept the deal."
This is not "LawTalk" but what you describe is not entrapment. It is not entrapment if the resultant act is not something a law-abiding person would not do regardless of circumstances. For example, police leave a car running, unocupied. If someone steals the car it is not entrapment because an honest person, under the same circumstances, would not take the car.
Same is true about removing the C/Rs boards. If the train stops and the C/R boards are not there, there is a procedure for the C/R to follow. If the C/R opens the doors anyway, without verifying that the train is properly in the station, he is endangering the lives of customers. The fact that it was a created situation does not deminish the severity of the act. The C/R did not know it was a test.
Yes, these things are done all the time. they are done in business. They are done in law Enforcement and they are done in transit. Oddly enough, people who follow the rules - and honest people never seem to get caught.
A great post.
Stores employ "shoppers" who provide feedback on their experiences. Was the clerk/bank teller/receptionist polite and helpful? They are supposed to be to every customer - so what difference does it make if the person is a hired "shopper?"
I will not get into a war of words on this topic. With all due respect, you take the supervisors side because you are one and I take the hourly workers side because I am one. And that is to be expected by both of us. True, I deeply resent this entrapment (as I call it) because I have over 20 years as a motorman and have a spotless operational record. I will not mess it up now. I am over 2/3 of the way to getting a pension and my first priority is safegarding it. Part of my problem is that I am fed up with all the operational errors by others which I have to suffer for. It's like Catholic Grammar school all over again: one kid is bad and the whole class has to stay after school. When signals are tampered with they delay service and delay the customers. Recently while I was on the E, the signal entering 23rd/8th on A2 track was set to red. From what transpired, it was obvious I was the first train operator to be tested. I called Control Center for permission to key by. I got no response. I had a feeling that I was being set up because it was late morning and that particular signal is the one they always use when they have their "efficiency test". Another one they always use is on D2 track right outside 65th St. They always find the slowest station on the line to do the "efficiency test", never at busy stations or in between stations. Firstly, some wise ass motorman who was able to hear my transmission could have easily said as a joke "key by according to rule 40M" and I would have keyed by. Now they got me because Control Center will claim that they never gave me permission. This would be backed up when the tape is played back. This is exactly what happened to a fellow motorman some time ago and he got time in the street. The joker, being on train to train, would not be on tape and his radio number could not be traced. Finally after seeking permission and getting no response several times it was time to get off the train and seek out a telephone. As soon as these "fellow TA workers" heard the storm door open up, they ran into the tunnel and start yelling: "It's OK, you can key by". Obviously I got the name of the TSS, and keyed by the signal. Obviously too, these guys who set up the test never took a radio check with Control Center before hand because when I was at 34/8, I heard a C train calling numerous times and he did not get a response either. When I got to Parsons E, I asked my follower if these guys were still out there. He told me that they were packing up. Say what you want, but I feel that the hourly employee is being set up to fail. Needlesss to say, there was lateness for my arrival at Parsons, you know how far an E line employee has to walk just to take a leak, and I lost my recovery time in between trips. I am confident that the train was statistically on time as well. No way will do they show this as a late train.
All I can say is *WOW* ... wow ... wow.
As I said, this is not Lawtalk and lest we bore others to death, I appreciate your point. There are people in my position who put notes behind panels and inside master controllers. The note usually says something like put your name on this note and return it to your supervisor. Some think this is an effective way to see who's doing the job and who's taking shortcuts. I don't approve of such tactics but I have no problem with legitimate testing of a person's rule or complience. Throwing a homeball at someone - I have never heard of this being done but if it is, it is a very poor idea. On the positive side, when someone gets hurt, the practice will stop.
I never heard of a homeball being thrown at someone either, but here is my fear. I've had a few incidences in my carreer where a homeball flashed in front of me from a clear aspect to a red over red and I was unable to stop. And the longer someone is a motorman, the more chance it is that "It can happen to you too!" Every time, I was cleared, sometimes after a big investigation and a lot of sweating, phone calls and G2 writing, due to a signal problem or stuff which I just never heard of the final outcome. But suppose a tower operator, because of inattention (I see so many with the phone in one hand and manipulating the machine/buttons with the other), "drops the ball" in error on someone causing a motorman to hit the homeball and no defect in the signal or switch is found. Will the tower operator admit an error in which he/she can get disciplined for? I doubt it! The tower will say "It was red over red all the time" (just to save his/her ass). Someone has to take the blame for the delay to the service. Will the supt. believe me or will he believe the tower operator? Especially if the tower operator is a female who smiles and is sweet to the supt. in the tower whenever he visits! Wrong as it is, and I do not wish to offend the females in transit and those who may read this, we have to honestly say that the females have changed the way things are done in the TA for better or worse, and sometimes discipline is harsher to a male than a female. Maybe black boxes are a good idea afterall!
Signals flashing red also happens on Class I RRs. Once the Feds get involved, you have a really big investigation. Of course, most have black boxes, something the TWU is adamantly opposed to. However, the 'black box' does clearly show when a signal flashes in front of a train.
From my experience, most times a train is tripped by an automatic signal, if it's the first car, the presumption is mechanical failure. If it's other than head car, it's presumed to be signal failure. If it's a home signal, it's presumed to be human error, train operator or tower operator. My 'problem' is the T/O who actually does not have his/her train under control and then when they get tripped by a signal, 'invent' an intermittant mechanical condition to keep from being written up.
True story which happened to a (at that time) a fellow E line motorman and a sometime SubTalk Poster. Same location 23/8 northbound. The efficiency test was in progress and the radio transmissions were being heard. My man barrels into 23rd St. and the TSS at the 10 car marker who takes your name and pass number says: "You're out of service for keying by without permission." My man who had heart failure for a few seconds till the others at the other end of the station came up to see what was going on, said that the signal was green. It seems that the signal test was completed and the others did not tell the TSS at the 10 car marker of this fact.
It's not entrapment, in the legal sense, but that really SUCKS!
One thing to, as TD says, leave a note that will prove that
someone is inspecting what they are supposed to. What RTO
is doing would be analogous to deliberately cutting a wire
in the group switch or breaking an interlock to see if the
guy in the pit notices it. These people must have caused
a 2 or 3 minute delay to every train taking "the test".
Unbelievable!
Some years ago, the TA sent undercover officers onto late-night trains in very disheveled clothes. They would appear to be passed out drunk on a seat with bills of large denomination hanging out of their pockets in clear view. This tactic was to encourage other passengers to try to steal the money, and then BAM! They're under arrest!
An investigation was conducted by Norman Siegel, and it was determined that this WAS indeed entrapment. Such a scenario could tempt even an honest person to grab the money, and create artificial crime. Apparently the practice was discontinued.
There's an intersection near where I live whose traffic signal is often stuck red one way and green the other. Undercover enforcement agents routinely sit in unmarked parked cars and wait for someone to get frustrated enough to run the light. Gotcha! They issue a moving violation on the grounds that you're not supposed to go through a red light- even if it's broken- unless there's DOT or NYPD personnel in the intersection directing traffic.
At a local civic association meeting, a question arose as to why, if the agent KNOWS the light is broken, he/she is not directing traffic instead of waiting for motorists to go through the red light- and possibly cause an accident. The precinct community liaison officer responded that it's strictly a revenue-raising move, and if you get a ticket, file a malfunctioning-signal report with DOT.
Swell. What if it's a weekend? By the time you get written verification, the light will be repaired, and the date of the verification won't match the date on the ticket.
How true this is, I don't know, but I heard that a TA car cleaner robbed one of these decoy cops you mentioned once. Needless to say, I heard he was (justifiably) fired........ One time, I saw a $50.00 bill on the platform at WTC by a pole. I am so paraniod, I didn't pick it up, I saw a car cleaner look around and pick it up out of the corner of my eye....... I find discarded MetroCards all the time on subway car seats tho, and I check them. I hit the jackpot once, a new 30 day unlimited card. I gave it to one of my wifes baby sitting clients.
Some years ago, the TA sent undercover officers onto late-night trains in very disheveled clothes. They would appear to be passed out drunk on a seat with bills of large denomination hanging out of their pockets in clear view.
Or passed out drunk on a platform bench with flashy jewelry, as in the opening of a famous (or infamous) movie ;).
I knew about the taking down of the jailbars to see if a conductor would open up - I saw that mentioned here a while ago and thought it downright despicable. Do you mean to tell me that they'll toss a ball against you without a caution ball ahead of it from out of nowhere?
Good thing I'm not plying the rails any longer. If I smelled a situation like that, I'd pull the handle to full app (just shy of BIE) and let them scrape the geese off the bulkheads for pulling something like that. Gee, Mr TSS - sure wouldn't want to hit a ball and endanger the customers ... if this is true, it's absolutely unconscionable.
They wouldn't throw a homeball at you intentionally at all. What I am saying that a scheduled move may be changed at the last minute. The towerman does not look at the model board to see that the train is close enough to the homeball that once the ball is dropped, the train may not have enough time to stop by the time the train gets to the now red over red homesignal.
Thanks for settling that ... of all the various things I've seen here, we certainly don't have a "kinder gentler TA" compared to the one I knew 30 years ago. And what surprises me in the situation you describe is that wiring in the preceding block as a " point of no return" for the switch machine wouldn't be a hard thing to do for such situations - "he's already passed the ball, can't move the interlock now without a call-on" ... but I'm sure I'll get an earful for that thought from others.
Stuff like this used to happen 30 years ago (DeKalb northbound comes to mind - here's your lineup, there it isn't, B train ...) but if you had to dump the train coming around the curve to a homeball, you DIDN'T get written up. Back in those days, the tower ops didn't want to explain what happened either so command would let you roll once you charged up again, no questions asked. I sense a kinda cut throat mentality out there these days. Glad I'm too well to sign in. :)
And I suppose that officer has memorized all the repeat offenders in NYC
It happened to me about 14 years ago, I purchased a 10 pack of tokens and enter the system at the GC shuttle entrance. At that time I normaly pushed the bar with my hand as I walked through, low and behold as I hit the bottom of the stairs I hear "Can I see some ID please" the TA officer said that I entered without paying even though I had 9 tokens left. After getting my summons I was told that I can supeona the clerk to my hearing (like he would remember me). Needless to say after telling the judge/hearing officer my story (I used that entry/exit everyday 5 days a week for 5 years)I was found guilty and paid the $50 fine and lost a days pay. Just pay it and get over it.
You were found guilty?!? That doesn't sound too well for me. I better prepare myself for the upcoming hearing. Perhaps you were an isolated incident. Mine, I saw other people getting ticketed for the same reason as I. And it being my first time down there with the way it was set up I am not surprised I'm not the only one getting ticketed.
Definately fight it, and write all the media. It's just the city picking on innocent folks. If the fare zone was not clearly marked that the ticket is invalid.
Prove that. And officers have better things to do. They never seem to be around when someone spits gum on the floor of the #7 train. This kinda garbage happens where I live in Sea Cliff all the time. They give out tickets at stop signs even if you stop.
I believe in "non violent" resistance. Prove that you are innocent and whatever you do NOT give the city your money. Hell if it happened to me I can't even afford it, so I'd just rip it up and screw it.
I am sorry you got a ticket. I'd go back and take some photos of the mezz with the gates. Explain that you went through due to the press of the crowd and tell them you'll gladly pay the fare and ask them to "dismiss the charge with the understanding that if I am picked up again within 1 year then I'd have two counts of fare beating."
you'll gladly pay the fare
He already did, as he said, he already had an unlimited card.
dismiss the charge with the understanding that if I am picked up again within 1 year then I'd have two counts of fare beating.
That's ridiculous. If such a bargain could be made, he shouldn't bother doing so. It's not the fine that's the matter, it's the principle.
I wanted to fight the local Coca-Cola bottler when one of their machines swallowed my $1. I gave up when I got two drinks for a $1 at a different machine.
I once called the Bell Atlantic refund department after a failed use of a pay phone. They sent me a check for 25¢
Just possessing an unlimited card does not constitute payment of the fare. A card must be swiped (in the bus it is dipped) before the fare is paid.
Let's pretend you are selling something to me and we agree on the price. I take the item and say the money is in my checking account and dont give you the money then I did not pay for the item.
The poster may have thought he paid and accidnetly wandfered through an open gate. I was not there--let the judge decide.
[Just possessing an unlimited card does not constitute payment of the fare. A card must be swiped (in the bus it is dipped) before the fare is paid.]
Of course the fare is paid. No fare gets paid whan I swipe the card, I just prove that I already have done so.
[Let's pretend you are selling something to me and we agree on the price. I take the item and say the money is in my checking account and dont give you the money then I did not pay for the item. ]
I don't see how this example is relevant.
Arti
It's most certainly relevant.You don't just need to have the means to pay, you have to PROVE it.
-Hank
[It's most certainly relevant.You don't just need to have the means to pay, you have to PROVE it. ]
IMO you do have the means, provable retroactively.
Arti
>>> I inadvertently thought the area across from those movable gates is still outside the fare zone <<<
If that's your story, stick to it. After all why should anyone seeing the vast mass of people entering one way, not believe that this area where no one was trying to enter was also an entrance.
>>> a transit officer approached me and started yelling "WHAT ARE YOU DOING?!!" as if I'm an ex-con <<<
No, he yelled at you as a potential fare beater, not an ex-con. Ex-cons who enter correctly are not yelled at.
>>> I have my UNLIMITED metrocard why the hell would I want to evade a fare?! <<<
Did you show the officer the Metrocard? When you go to court you will need proof that you purchased the Metrocard before the incident and that you had it with you. That should negate any element of intent to beat the fare, and get you off without a fine. If the station was poorly marked, you will need to have photographs to back up those contentions.
>>> They'll hear a MOUTHFUL from me. Yes I have the officer's name. I'll make sure HE gets demoted for his actions. <<<
No wonder the police force has such high turnover. If every officer who writes a ticket gets demoted for doing so, pretty soon there won't be anyone left above the lowest rank.
I hope your MOUTHFUL is not as silly as your post to Subtalk. Stick to the evidence that you had no intent to evade the fare. That is your best way to beat the ticket. A demonstration of your righteous indignation at being given a ticket is nothing new to the judge or other court personnel, and none of them will be swayed by it at all.
Tom
If that's your story, stick to it. After all why should anyone seeing the vast mass of people entering one way, not believe that this area where no one was trying to enter was also an entrance.
Very often when I try to enter someplace, everybody tries to go in through one door. I'm the first one who breaks the line and realizes that maybe, the other door might be open. I'm usually right.
I wouldn't consider the direction of the herd of sheep to be any indication of the proper way to go.
This is quite true.
Tom - I don't know how I missed this post the first time around. I'm glad I went back. It certainly was worth another look.
Another fine example of ticket quotas at work.
Number7, I can see how POed you are, and I admit I haven't read too far in this chain. However, allow me to offer you two pieces of adivce (BTW, I'm NOT an attorney)
1) As POed as you are, your chances at a hearing are probably better if you DON"T give them a "mouthful". I'd bet the hearing officers don't appreciate that too much. Simply stating your case, without undue passion, is much more likely to be effective. Even if you don't get the veridict you want (of course, I hope that you DO), thank the hearing officer for his/her time. Simply having an officil forum to make your case can be cathartic.
2) Don't just ingore the ticket. I've read in the paper (Daily News)that you'd get a bench warrant issued, which could result in your being cuffed, etc., if you got stopped for ANYTHING in the future. Might even make a problem at the airport, border crossings, etc.
Go to court, state your case calmly, if you have any attorneys in your circles who'll adivse you, get their help.
And good luck!
Having been through Willets Point mezzanine recently, I can vouch that the setup there is VERY confusing with the vast ungated area leading to the fare control zone. It takes a moment to sort it out as you approach and realize you need to use the bus farebox to enter. Fortunately for me, I eyed the cops and paused to make sure I was heading the right way. With a crowd at your back during the U.S. Open the situation would only become worse, and I'm sure MANY folks, especially out-of-towners, took a wrong turn here and were ticketed.
Excuse me. Let me see if I understand this! The vast majority of people are waiting on long lines to enter the system. A person knows that he MUST pay a fare to enter the system. That person see's a gate that no one else is using. See's no fare control device.. Goes through the gate (that no one else is using) and is suprised that he's done something wrong? And - if as you suggest, many others did it and were stopped and summonsed, it stands to reason if you see someone else getting a ticket you might think twice.
Here's a thought. Assuming there is a large group at a station entering the system. You are in a hurry and can't wait your turn. You jump the line and push a token into the token booth window and then go through the exit gate. Did you violate the law?
Now, clearly, if the original poster is telling the truth, and we have no reason to assume that he's not, he had a valid - unrestricted metrocard. Hence, his objective was likely not to beat the fare. However, it is not the duty of the police officer to dispense 'curb-side' justice. That's what the courts are for. Besides, with our maize of overlapping laws, even if the original poster was not guilty of fare evasion (and I'm not sure if that's true) he was likely guilty of another law like circumventing a fare control device.
Is it possible to computer check the activation date of the unlimited Metrocard from some device outside of the MTA's control? If it can be proved the unlimted card was activated before the ticket was issued, that might help bolster the case before a judge in court.
I bought my unlimited metrocard September 1, so I will have that with me.
Now, clearly, if the original poster is telling the truth, and we have no reason to assume that he's not, he had a valid - unrestricted metrocard. Hence, his objective was likely not to beat the fare. However, it is not the duty of the police officer to dispense 'curb-side' justice. That's what the courts are for. Besides, with our maize of overlapping laws, even if the original poster was not guilty of fare evasion (and I'm not sure if that's true) he was likely guilty of another law like circumventing a fare control device.
Yes I am telling the truth. I will explain my case at the hearing and hopefully they will let me go. If I am found guilty of moving the gate, then that means all of the others who went there not sure where they're going and inadvertently moved the gates will also be guilty of that too. That's just unfortunate then, having to pay the high ticket prices for those sporting events, then have to pay another high price ticket.
My question is, why those service gates? Why the "manned" turnstiles at the lower ramp entranceway, when almost every other station have been reconstructed with permanent gates and metrocard turnstiles to prevent people from doing these kinds of things? There will be times where the entire lower mezzanine will be used for a pedestrian passageway connecting Shea and US Open? There will be times where the entire space is needed ... say for a shelter during a heavy snowstorm?
If they are "manned" in order to answer the customer's questions along the way, then how come Grand Central and Times Square stations are not "manned"? Customers can use the turnstiles there and if they have questions they go to the booth or ask an agent. So why can't the same be done at the Willets Point Shea Stadium station?
If there are no other reasons, and IF the MTA has been doing this for years (I can't prove that, so I only say IF), shouldn't they be doing something about it? Unlike the other cases that have been brought up here on subtalk, this affects THE GENERAL PUBLIC and I think it is just wrong.
As far as I know, that setup is used only when th US Open is on. Coming towards the station from the stadium, the boardwalk "splits" in two with signage on the ground directing subway riders to the left and car parkers to the right for a direct path to the Shea parking lots. Gates divide the two passageways and subway users enter via bus card reader. A portable token clerk setup is there where you can buy tokens, etc. You probably could have reversed course when you saw that there was no fare control there. But if you're not familiar with the arrangement I guess it's understandable to move the gates. But the cop was doing his job. When the Open's gone, I don't even think that entry is open to the park since the train doors open on the other side (towards Shea). I'm not sure what happens when neither the Mets or tennis is not there.
Man, I LOVE people who bitch about 'more serious crimes' after they get cited for something they deem insignificant. A law is a law...
-Hank
unfortunately, there are many dumb laws on the books.
http://www.dumblaws.com
I got hit with 75 bucks for riding in between the cars. I just payed it, because the officer was nice. If you go to court with that attitude, you'll never beat the ticket. Explain to the judge EXACTLY what happened. If you get a smart unGulianized judge, you might get off. Keep in mind that the Mayor needs this extra money now that he's leaving office. Between the money he has to pay his ex, and all the gifts he has to buy his new ho--I mean, girlfriend, your money is well spent. Just be cool in court, bro, and you might not have to pay anything. Let me know how it turns out.
By the way, when I got my ticket I used my DISABLED Metrocard as ID for the officer thinking he'd have sympathy. Then, I remembered Diallo and Luima, and the "sympathy" the cops showed those poor souls, and knew I didn't stand a chance. I also felt shame afterwards for trying to use the "disabled card." Pro Guliani/Pro NYPD, I have my retardant clothing on. Flame away. I'm not anti-cop, my best friend's son is a cop and a damn good one, I'm just anti-bad cop.
Tony
I revisited the station today and figured everything out now. I checked out the entire mezzanine with the gates aside and realized what had happened.
Yes I did move the gate. Yes I should be "punished" for that. The TA was fully aware of the circumstances which let to my action (as well as others who also did the same). The 4 ladies got ticketed literally 5 seconds after the officer finished writing mine. So being my first night there, I can't say for sure that this incident hadn't happened anytime earlier. By the tone of some posters here, I deserved to be fined the moment I moved it. OK so be it.
So instead of showing every unfamiliar passengers back out, those posters says that the law is the law, and we (me and the 4 ladies) should be fined. It is my fault for trying not to become a sheep. It is my fault for trying to find an alternative entrance since I presumed most people are Manhattan bound. People are born curious. People tend to find alternative solutions. Can you blame me for that? Or should I go "baa-baa baa-baa"? If I'm the only one ticketed, then you all might as well shoot me in the head (figuretively), but I'm not; not even for 5 extra minutes. But since I'm an "idiot", what else can I do? I am young and naturally fast-paced and walk fast. If I can find ways around I would be naturally inclined to do so.
OK I won't get the officer demoted or anything silly like that. He was just doing his job. But one has to wonder officer enforcement policies in general. I know panhandling is illegal because subway ads say so. I see beggars crossing right in front of conductors and nothing happens. One time I saw a blind man in a wheelchair panhandling at 42nd St/Lex and when he "saw" 2 officers approach him, the blind man then rolled away and the officers just started talking to other passengers about him not really blind at all. So what gives? Does that mean these 2 officers weren't doing their jobs then? So it's really up to the officer(s) discretion to decide when to enforce and when not to, isn't it? The officers know who has the money and who doesn't, so they play "Robin Hood", right? And I don't want to hear some smartass here say panhandling is "not completely" illegal. It's either legal or illegal. If it is legal, then who are the ads directed to... my ancestors?
I still don't think I fully deserve it but at the same time I realized what I've done. I will state my case calmly at the hearing and hopefully everything will be resolved.
And don't say I am bitching because I made my point clear. I resent being linked to that term. I realize there are people here who thinks they are "special" and "all that" that they can just badmouth anything as bitching. To them I say, "whatever".
Bravo for a brave and mostly classy post. Not easy to eat crow, but you did. We all have, at one time or another. Cool.
I agree with you about the panhandling. However, what may be happening is, the officer may have busted this panhandler, or others, a few times, and is burned out from seeing this guy in the station every day. It takes time, paperwork, etc. to process all this. So the officer focuses on something he considers more productive - handing you a ticket. Better chance, on average, that you'll pay it than the panhandler would.
I don't condone the officer's approach, however.
I don't like panhandlers very much. A big problem in Philly. They're more aggressive in some ways. I can recall one incident where a bunch of them were blocking an entrance to the Market Frankford line downtown. No passengers could get through. When a SEPTA K-9 officer asked them to move aside they got smart-lipped with him and told him to go screw himself. The dog started barking, and when backup arrived, they finally moved. The next day some homeless "advocates" complained that the SEPTA officer had assaulted innocent people by "siccing" a vicious dog on them. Pure unadulterated BS.
There are times when, emotionally (not rationally), I wonder if the most appropriate response to a vagrant's "F-U" response is to clobber him but good over the head with a nightstick and explain "My hearing isn't so good; could you repeat that, please? Did I hear you say, 'Sure officer. Have a nice day.'"
I know it's wrong and unproductive to do that. But I admit, the thought crosses my mind before my rational brain cells suppress it.
Amen. You've got it in perspective now. However, I would correct two things in your post.
First, I don't think you are an idiot. Perhaps a criminal (kidding) but not an idiot. I think it took a fair amount of common sense to go back to the 'scene of the crime' and see what you did wrong.
Second; since the position of patrolman is an entry level position, I don't think they are demotable (unless they can be made parking enforcement agents or school security officers).
The position of Patrolman/Officer is indeed undemotable. However, the NYPD punishes you by either giving you a crap assignment, or by placing you in an undesirable (for the officer) precinct.
While I was working, one officer that I was talking to was telling me that he had missed his ticket quota for the past 3 months. He lived near, and worked out of the Transit precinct at Coney Island. His superior told him that if he failed to meet his quota again, that he was going to be transferred to the East 180th Street precinct in The Bronx. Needless to say, that officer was writing everybody up for even the slightest violation for two weeks just so that he could stay at CI, something that the officer despised doing.
Satisfying ticket quotas shouldn't be a problem for most patrolmen. Consider all the summonsable offenses the average rider encounters every day:
-Holding doors open at a stop for a friend still at the token booth.
-Taking up more than one seat with ones packages, body, etc.
-Selling bootleg/wholesale merchandise (toys, batteries) on a train.
-Setting up a blanket on which to sell bootleg/wholesale merchandise on a platform, passageway or stairway landing.
-Loud boomboxes.
-Playing loud music whether the passengers want to hear it or not (and expecting them to give money for the privelege).
-Loudly prosthelyzing for the religion or cause of your choice.
-Shilling for a charity, legitimate or otherwise.
-Standing on both sides of an escalator.
-Taking up a doorway or half the car with an open stroller.
Many of these offenses are committed in full view of the police. If summons were issued each time one occurred, not only would quotas be satisfied, but the city budget would have a permanent surplus.
-Lighting up on the platform or in the mezzanine.
Somehow my last comment got put before my last summonsable offense listed (Lighting up on the platform or in the mezzanine), in case anyone reading this thinks I lost my mind. Well, perhaps I have- but that's another story.
After reading this article, maybe I should consider relocating back to NYC.
(reposted without permission of the Washington Post)
A Good Move, After All
New Yorkers Are Rude, But at Least They're Getting Somewhere
By Rick Newman
Sunday, September 9, 2001; Page B01
NEW YORK
The people are rude. The traffic's a hassle. The subway is Third World. The streets are spattered with bodily fluids, imparting a tangy aroma during the warmer months that no other American city can match. Or would want to.
After living in and around D.C. for a decade, I took a new assignment in my magazine's New York bureau this summer. I headed north with trepidation. I had known many people over the years who had moved here only to flee the metropolis after a few years -- broke and exhausted, like Balkan refugees.
I prepared for the worst: It would take hours to get to work. I would acquire a viral sheen as I traveled throughout the filthy city, thinking always of my next shower. Toll collectors, parking attendants and maitre d's would be dunning me for $20 or $50 every time I turned around. I would hear that accent every day.
New York turned out to be all that. What I didn't expect wasto discover that there are all kinds of ways in which New York is an improvement upon D.C. I'm not talking about the usual Big Apple boasts: J. Lo sightings, Broadway productions so great that ordinary people won't be able to see them for years, the "city that never sleeps." I found I have absolutely no need for 5 a.m. karaoke. The only "Producers" I'm likely to see are the guys putting out the vegetables at my supermarket.
What I have learned to appreciate are some of the more mundane aspects of life in New York. There are virtues in an overcrowded and stressed-out city. New Yorkers understand that there are too many people here. The system is crammed to the point that one little snafu will grind the whole thingto a halt, unleashing potential riots and mass suicide. So they move things along with a haste that borders on panic.
At the deli in my building, there are always two people working at the cash register. One takes your money while the other puts your food in a bag. The whole transaction happens in less time than it takes to get your pocket picked. Instead of the customers losing patience with waiting "on line," as they say here, it is the cashiers who seem annoyed that the customers can't get their change into their wallets and get out of the way fast enough.
Compare that with Washington, where most people think they live in a bustling northeastern metropolis -- except for service workers, who think D.C. is some laid-back corner of Dixie. This is a volatile mix, producing frequent scenes like the one I swear used to take place every morning at about 11:30 at the Georgetown post office: Ten people would wait in line for two clerks, one of whom was busy with some eccentric who wanted collectible stamps from two years ago. That clerk would wander off toward the stockroom in search of the stamps, with nary a glance at the line of people whose expressions begged her not to leave. The other clerk would calmly (read "slowly") be helping a woolly bike messenger who needed to buy 100 money orders. Line rage would begin to wear down the customers behind him who just wanted to mail a package or buy an airmail stamp. They would start making loud, sarcastic remarks to each other -- but not directly to the cashiers; that would have been rude. Not even after the first clerk would return and give the eccentric her collectibles, promptly close her window and go on lunch break.
The system in New York has been fine-tuned in ways to keep humanity from tearing itself to shreds. The city, for instance, has moved well beyond the mentality that regards traffic signals as speed bumps. On some of the north-south avenues, there are times when you can catch every green light for a mile or more, if you drive just a few miles over the speed limit. In D.C. and in so many other cities, by contrast, traffic lights are designed to slow car travel to what it was during the horse and buggy era. The inevitable result is that people drive at twice the speed limit, which is the only way they can ever get through the next light.
New York has figured out another secret of traffic management: If there's nothing you can do to improve traffic, at least pretend that you care.All around the city, there are electronic signs that tell you how long it will take to get through major choke points. This is particularly important to those of us who live across the river in New Jersey while we save up for a shack in Manhattan.
Driving into the city, my spirits soar when I spot the sign telling me there's a 20-minute delay at the George Washington Bridge. The sign does absolutely nothing to get you to your destination any faster. But it makes you feel as if somebody's paying attention to the problem -- like maybe there are empathetic authorities in a big control room somewhere, fretting over the backup. It gives you a sense that you're not alone out there, that when your head explodes, at least somebody will notice.
You'd think that the traffic gurus in the Washington area would have found a way to show motorists that they care, especially with so much bad traffic to work with. Instead it seems the opposite is true. You're on the Beltway at 7 a.m. You figure you have beaten the morning rush hour, but one of those "instajams" materializes out of nowhere like downpours in the rain forest. You try to divine the cause and duration by listening to the traffic report, but all you hear about is the story of an overturned truck on the Baltimore-Washington Parkway, the 93rd this year. Your run-of-the-mill backup doesn't even rate a mention. You sit there, with no control over your fate and no idea how long you'll be stuck. At least you can take heart from one thing: Virginia and Maryland officials have regular discussions about the environmentally damaging, prohibitively expensive new roads that would alleviate this mess if the two states could actually join forces and build them.
Dislike being around New Yorkers? Find them pushy and rude? I always did and still do. But I also realize that they are doing their part to hold chaos at bay. Institutionalized rudeness has a way of forcing people to play by the rules, or at least raises the cost of breaking the rules. If you try to cut the line for a bus, for example, you are going to be pilloried by a dozen self-appointed queue monitors. Play by the rules or suffer mob justice. Do anything to disrupt the flow of life, and you'll be insulted and browbeaten. I was driving in the city one day when I stopped momentarily behind a truck, assuming it was waiting for the light to change. The driver stuck his head out the window and yelled at me, "What are you, stupid? Pull around!" He was letting me know, in the midtown manner, that he was parked for a delivery, and that I should move past him. As I drove by I waved to thank him for doing his part to keep the system moving.
There is no passive-aggressive problem in the Big Apple. When people are displeased about something, they don't huff and sigh and hope somebody will notice their discomfort. They don't let frustration and resentment build all day long by failing to verbalize their anger. They just blast away the moment they feel the slightest bit of oppression. At some level, these must be the most balanced, stable people in the country.
Some of the other famous foibles of the city have their advantages, too. Women in New York are notoriously neurotic, and therefore delightfully thin. Men in New York are vain and superficial, which makes them very stylish and pleasant to gaze upon. There are no seersucker suits. And New Yorkers have a high tolerance for the outrageous, which means I can get away with base generalizations like those I just made. In D.C., by contrast -- well, I'll bet the editors of this paper had a big debate about whether to cut out this paragraph, lest it provoke protests from women's groups, men's groups, not to mention advocates for the neurotic and the insecure.
The importance of trendiness in the fashion capital of America can be socially liberating. At cocktail parties, people rarely ask, "What do you do?" This forestalls windy discussions on health care policy and the latest G-8 meeting. Instead, New Yorkers want to know, "Where do you live?" Your neighborhood will tell them everything they need to know: your income level, social pedigree, sexual persuasion, whether you're left-brain or right-brain, practical or romantic, adventurous or timid, new economy or old. And most importantly, whether they should keep talking to you or move on to somebody else.
Perhaps it seems shallow, this informal way of cataloging people and quickly labeling them as worthies or unworthies. But you have to remember, this is a city of 8 million people. You'll never meet the right ones if you waste your time with random conversations. You gotta have a system. And keep the traffic flowing.
Rick Newman covers business for U.S. News & World Report and now takes his bagel with a schmear, whatever that is.
(Note: schmear is cream cheese you dummy! I had to say that)
© 2001 The Washington Post Company
Virginia Division - BMT
(NYC taxpayer 1953-1972, 1978-1984)
I think NYers are getting softer. First time I went, they were as rude as I expected. The past two times I 've been there, you guys were more polite. I'm kinda disapointed in y'all, I liked the rudeness.
Most people in NYC seem quite polite and friendly, at least compared to those here in Northern Nassau. I can't stand all the rich snobs in Roslyn and Great Neck, they are the meanest and greediest.
We're not nicer you just got used to it.
I visited the Pa RR Museum in Strasburg Saturday as part of the Reading FP7 Strasburg trip. Some of my photos are posted on Yahoo Photo.
I took a large number of photos at the Illinois Railroad Museum the previous Saturday while on the SubTalk Chicago trip, but the number is overwhelming and it will be a while before I get them up. Some have been sent to Dave Cole, Chicago SubTalk trip organizer, who at his discretion may include some in a trip report that he'll send to Website Host Dave Pirmann, who at his discretion may post some of them on this site.
I'm preparing the trip report now, which includes your photos and many photos by Ed Sachs. The text portion is complete, and I just need to create thumbnails and captions for a few more photos. Dave Steckler also took many photos, and will be burning them to a CD-ROM and sending it to me via snail-mail, and I'll include those later. I wouldn't be surprised if there's over 200 photos from the Chicago trip! I'm including almost all of them in my report. Of course, it's up to Dave Pirmann as to whether he wants to put all of them on the site or just a few.
-- David
Chicago, IL
Nice pix, Bob. Can't wait to visit there myself. I am having too busy a fall to do much railfanning. I'm not even going to be able to make it to Fall Spectacular at Rockhill this year. Trolley fans really should go, however, to see the new track extension. I was really bummed to miss the Chicago trip. Can't wait to see David's report.
Thanks, Pete.
I was hoping to see you at Rockhill for the Fall Spectacular. I'll definitely ride the trolley to see the track extension.
You'll like it, even though the pocket siding is not completed yet!
The Penna Museum is definitely worth the trip for anyone who can arrange it. Last weekend was my fourth trip there since it opened.
I may try to get to Rockhill to ride the new track. I have mixed feelings about seeing the P & W Bullet with trolley poles but it still rides as good as it ever did.
Did Rockhill ever do anything with that Wilmington trackless it has rusting out near the end of the old track?
The first time I saw #205 with trolley poles I nearly ****, but I'd rather see it running with trolley poles than not at all. 205 is probably the car that I rode most often when I worked in Radnor, and I enjoy riding it at Rockhill every chance I get.
That is argueable. Would you want to see a steam engine running on diesel power? I despise selling out. Someone somewhere needs to buy a goodly stretch of RR track and plop some 3rd rail on it.
That is argueable.
No, it isn't.
I'd rather ride #205 with a trolley pole than not ride it. Besides, I can't see the pole from inside the car.
Was it a sellout to replace the Electroliners' poles with third rail shoes (and add doors to accommodate short platforms) to run them as Liberty Liners for several years on the P&W? Perhaps, but I'm glad I had the opportunity to ride them.
Agreed ... as much as I may view it as absolute heresy having R9's, R4's, R1's and Hi and LoV's scooting around in pastures under a trolley pole, were it NOT for this option, there would be none preserved or movable AT ALL ... sometimes you just have to be grateful for what you get. Even if it isn't gold-plated.
I've got the property, I know where there's some abandoned track - a waiver for third rail *IS* possible here if there's money to build proper fencing on both sides of 7 miles of track ... ain't got the scratch, but I know where it can be done and who to call for anyone who *is* rich enough for 7 miles of third rail powered preservation. I'd love to see that myself. But I'm perfectly willing to settle for what is out there already though.
I have mixed feelings about seeing the P & W Bullet with trolley poles
It's supposed to have trolley poles... also a salmon and teal paint scheme :-) The folks at IRM did theirs right.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
You're thinking about the Liberty Liner. This does look right with poles. The Bullet just doesn't cut it since my memories of them are when they were 'bald'.
You're right, I am... guess in the press of the day's events I was reading the post too hastily.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I've been there several times / twice since they opened the extension. I was very disappointed, however, to find that they didn't preserve #6200 (made famous by Lionel #2020, 671, 681 & 682). Still it's a 'Must Stop' for me every time I'm in the area. Now, if you really want a rail museum experience, take a trip to the Spencer Shops, north of Charlotte, NC. The stuff in the roundhouse is not to be believed..
TD
I decided to avoid the crowds in Hoboken yesterday and instead checked out the rumor that work has started on the HBLR extension from 34th Street to 22nd Street in Bayonne. It appears that they have just started. A gate has been installed in a fence at the back of a parking lot on Ave E between 23rd Street and 24th Street. A field office trailer has been placed on the edge of the ROW, with a dumpster, a Porta-John, and a wire running to a pole out at the street. No actual demolition or construction or landscaping is visible yet, with the possible exception of the removal of some material from the bridge over 22nd Street. Is there anyone out there who knows that bridge well enough to remember whether you could see the sky from the roadway through any part of the bridge until recently?
I haven't been able to vote for Mayor since 1969, but once a New Yorker...
Looking at the field Tuesday, I'm not tempted to say this or that one is better. because in New York City politics you really have three challenges for your Mayoralty: 1) having a vision for how your will run the City; 2) planning for how you will achieve your vision; and 3) coordinating 1) and 2) with the continuency that supported your candidacy.
That said, the Democratic candidates seem to be positioning themselves as follows:
Mark Green as John Lindsay
Fernando Ferrar as David Dinkins
Alan Hevesi as Rudy Giuliani
Peter Vallone as Robert F. Wagner
or to put it another way
Liberal activism
City vs. the World
City as corporation
Clubhouse competence
I'm not trying to cast these as inherently positive or negative. What bothers me is that I don't know how comfortably these people fit into the skins of their positions. So even if you find one of these stances attractive, will the man deliver it? And even if he does try to deliver it, does he have it upstairs to deliver? And will his political cronies let him deliver it?
After the primary, it will be whoever against "Mike." Who is this man? Latter-day Lindsay? Modern-day Corzine?
I wish Badillo had a shot. I think he looks kind of tired, but he's the only that has the independence, concern and knowledge of the city and its people. All the others scare me.
Oh, sorry--transit relevance.
My opinion is that none of the above will build any more transit than they're politically forced to. Position papers on the subject are meaningless, because to build transit you need lots of money, since transit gets the leftovers after otehr constituencies are satisfied.
I think Mark Green might be most inclined to want to add tarnsit, but I think he will be one of the less capable. Why? I expect he will follow the "more money from Washington and Albany" route. I don't he can deliver on that. Why? To get more money from Washington, you have to know how to play their political ballgame and be willing to play it. "Gimme more" don't hunt.
As to Albany, every dollar that goes from Albany to anywhere in the state is the subject of intense negotiation between the Big Three. Essentially, this means that the City isn't really negotiating x dollars for transit, y dollars for HHC, z dollars for schools. What it is really doing is negotiating x dollars for the City. Once that amount is agreed upon, you divide that up. So more dollars for transit means less for parks, or hospitals, or welfare services, or schools... Which constituency do you think is less powerful than transit?
Even-numbered years are usually the ones that are good for transportation spending, because those are the years most state and federal elections are held, though 2002 could be different.
Pataki will want to spend whatever federal transit money the MTA gets on Long Island and Westchester, because that's where he sees his votes coming from in the 2002 election. Depending on George's poll number come around March, Bush and the Republicans may be willing to throw some $$$ his way.
On the other side, Green, Ferrer or whoever the mayor is (assuming Bloomberg or Badillo don't win) will line up with Cuomo or McCall and N.Y.'s two Senators to push for more MTA spending in the city, because that's where their votes are. But you're right that there are other priorities as fas as obtaining any dollars from D.C. goes that will take presidence over transit money.
The caveat in all this is the Social Security "lock box" which both the Republicans and Democrats in Washington have managed to make sacrosinct (a pretty funny situation on the face of it), and now both sides are waiting for the other side to blink and say they'll tap into that surplus first. If the economy doesn't turn around by the second quarter of 2002, look for transit spending to be one of the first things that gets axed by both sides, beacuse neither wants to lose the senior citizens vote across the nation.
Well, the whole Social Security thing is bogus anyway. Or maybe it would be more accurate to simply say that you can put any kind of spin on it you wish.
It is quite possible for the Federal Government to run a general accounts deficit without dipping into the Social Security "trust fund"--simply issue general obligation bonds and notes to finance the deficit, just as the government has been doing for decades. The bonds will be sold to the public instead of being carried by the SS system. But where do we think the money from the SS system is "invested" anyway?
It comes down to the phrase Larry Littlefield likes--"money is fungible"-- which simply means that when a dollar is spent there is no way to really tell where that particular dollar came from or where that dollar is "really" supposed to go--that's why they made accountants.
Yesterday at 9:30PM, s/b on the Culver was a lash up of Slants heading s/b from Neptune to W 8. I couldn't get the car numbers, but the bullet was orange, could these MUs have been signed up for "F" service???
That was a light V, heading into the yard via Stillwell Av. I caught that train coming around a curve into the terminal while I was on the street getting lunch. I'd guess it was going into Stillwell Yard, otherwise it would have entered Coney Island Yard through Avenue X.
-Stef
Actually, that entrance only gains you "quick" entrance to Culver/Avenue X/City Yard.
Wayne would have been happy. I was at 14/6th and waited for a V-- it was orange bullet and was a slant! North destination read "Contental Av" and South Destination read "2 Av". Sorry- no car numbers.
That's all right, they were all previously working on the Slant Q prior to their "V"acation.
wayne
That's "F"unny.:-)
Make that "V"ery "F"unny.
How often could we see Slants on the IND South Brooklyn Line? Where did it go O/S or did it make F stops?
They were probably coming back from their "V" trip!
I remember the Culver in the Slants' early days - especially the non A/C ones. Noisy, gritty, sooty - BEAUTIFUL!
wayne
I remember when I was 7-8 years old (1975-76), all E and a good number of F trains were slants. Nowadays, I can tell by the sound when a Slant is coming into the station.
I'd be great to get an RF window on the "F" or the "D"- I've never seen the Hilside Ave or Concourse Lines from that point of view.
In May '01, I saw a slant on the "J", but I guess it was a loaner or something.
Every now and then a Slant would pop up on the "J" or "Z" - that's when they had 76 R40s instead of the current 48. There was SMS (scheduled major service) going on for some of the mushy-floored and badly-A/C'd R42s and a whole bunch of them retreated to the Coney Island Overhaul Shoppe for their repairs. To fill in the gap, Slants in the number range of #4370 to #4397 were sent to Eastern Division. Now that the repairs are done, these cars are back on the Slant "Q" and "N" lines where they belong.
The Hillside (east of 71 Avenue) IND is pretty good from a RF window point of view. I remember vividly (this is going back 25+ years) riding R-6 and R-7s on the "F" through there. And Slants too. Always either got the RF window or the Reverse RF window if I could. There was one stretch where they wrapped it - coming out of the broad curve leading into Sutphin and then into Parsons on the exp track.
wayne
Yep, you are thinking of those pre-GOH days, with the unique R38 style fan covers, and small fluorescent tubes in between the poles and fans.
They ruled the IND Express back in the day. =)
Terrific day in Hoboken at Try Transit. Perfect weather and plenty of transit paraphernalia to sift through. Kudos to all.
How soon will HBLR be extended to Hoboken and north?
The Exchange Place station has the proposed full extent of the system on a map imbedded on the platform...
www.forgotten-ny.com
Did you also notice that it shows some tracks in place that aren't there anymore? The CNJ line across Newark Bay, for example?
Hmm. I took the HBLR and looked at the map, paying close attention to the Newark Bay bridges, and it seemed to me that it showed track on both sides of the bay, but no track across the bay.
Look down at the tip of Bayonne. You'll see the CNJ line continuing southwest over the water.
How soon will HBLR be extended to Hoboken and north?
OH, I WISH I had a FULL construction phase and descriptions for this! But I know that there are four phases of the project, each phase taking one year to construct and complete.
Count on next year for the HBLR to Hoboken. They're working on Phase TWO as we speak. Phase ONE is completed which is constructed via Exchange Place to... .. .. (I don't know where)
Hope this helps, this is all I have for now, until I can find the webpage with the full information. : ( Sorry.
Railfan Pete.
Friday evening, I was making a trip up to Riverdale to visit friends. I had been dow in the Village, so of course, I decided to start my journey on the A because of the wicked express runs, and I would make the rather uncomfortable (yet still worth it) switch to the 1/9 at 168.
I boarded the lead car of an uptown A at West 4, and at the time, didn't notice that the car (#3647 or #3467, I can't remember which it was), was making a noise sounding like a series of rapid booms. Pardon the comparison to communicating with a mechanic, but really, the car made a noise similar to: boomboomboomboom....
We arrived at West 59, and the conductor announced that we were going to be held briefly at the station. No more than 30 seconds later, an MTA official in an orange safety vest knocks on the motorman's door, and the two come out. The official, with flashlight in hand, hops down onto the rails in front of the train, and proceeds to inspect underneath the front truck. The whole inspection took no more than 2 minutes. The official got off the trackage, boarded the train, and we were underway.
As the official rode in the front with the motorman, who had propped the cab door open, they conversed about what was wrong. I couldn't quite overhear, but it had something to do with 1.5-2 inches of misalignment on the front truck. This means absolutely nothing to me, so perhaps some of the experts could shed some light as to what might have been wrong.
After the official exited at 145, I had a chance to talk with the motorman. I asked him how this was coordinated, and he said he had radioed in that his car was making an odd noise.
My questions for the experts are: How does the MTA coordinate these service calls on the fly? Who are these officials, and where are they stationed so that they can be available to board a train at a predetermined location? Was this arranged through the MTA's master control center in Brooklyn? I know very little about operations, and I found this situation absolutely fascinating.
You know, next time I'm driving on the FDR, and my car makes a funny noise, I want to call in and have a service official perform an inspection at the next exit.
MATT-2AV
P.S.: And anyone who bitches about the MTA should move to Los Angeles and try and live without any substantial public transportation. I found this maintenance of operations highly professional.
The train in question had "flat wheels". 1.5 - 2 inch flats aren't enough to take a train out of service, but it is enough to order the train put in the Yard on arrival at 207 Street.
Flat wheels means that the wheels are no longer perfectly round due to an earlier stuck brake dragging the wheel along the rail causing it to wear down in a particular spot. It's kinda like having seven-eighths of the wheel round, and the other eighth square. You get the drift.
As far as the response from supervision, usually it's random. The T/O radios Control Center with the problem, the CC then gets in contact with supervision & Road Car Inspectors and finds out their location(s) and sends the closest one to the affected train. At some times during the day (especially rush hours), supv/RCI remain in predetermined spots along the line.
The best example not related to trains is a bike. If you go really fast like 25mph and you slam the rear brake (better not be the front because you'd go flyin) your wheel slides to a stop, flattening the grooves on a mountain bike tire. I have a flat spot on my rear tire but I can't feel it, nor is it crippling my ability to ride it.
During the ERA visit to 207th St yard, one of the superintendents explained that the autumn was always a big time for flat wheels. He confirmed that sudden braking and locked wheels were the biggest problem, and he said that falling leaves in autumn were a big source of this problem. Mounds of leaves on elevated tracks lead to a lot more lack of traction and the folks in maintenance find themselves with a lot more work to do.
Since the 62A's were reformatted with the E-CAM braking system "spotted wheels are becoming the norm".
Why?
How is that system different from what was there before?
Train Dude would be able to tell you the difference since that is his dept. As too why it happens I don't know either but I have been told this info by several TSS's and RCI's.
I am done traveling for the summer and will post on SubTalk on a regular basis from here on out.
Is it likely there will still be some redbirds in service in the summer of 2002, or will they all be gone by then? Also, does anyone know how many redbirds will be dropped in the ocean?
David
400 in the ocean
That is just jaw dropping.
its true
An additional 400 may be dropped off another state which I can't recall at the moment.
Now that is just sick.
Why is that sick? Would you prefer they be dumped in a lot somewhere?
There dumping a lot of redbirds in the ocean.
It's like killing a lot of rats.
north carlonia is what it is. peace
NORTH CAROLINA? That's far! It must take about a day to get down there with the freight line chugging down the tracks pulling the Redbird cars.
AMTRAK's Twilight Shoreliner, an overnight trip from NYP to Newport News, VA, takes 8 hrs. and 51 mins.
But freights go slower than AMTRAK, so I don't know what the deal is.
ALSO: Does anyone know where the electrified portion of the NEC ends at the southbound end? I'm not sure if it is Washington D.C., but I think it is, since the Acela Express trains go down that far.
: )
Railfan Pete.
ALSO: Does anyone know where the electrified portion of the NEC ends at the southbound end? I'm not sure if it is Washington D.C., but I think it is, since the Acela Express trains go down that far.
Yes, it ends at Washington Union Station. Trains that continue south through Virginia, to Florida, etc need to have their engine changed.
The cars are shipped by barge. There's no point in trying to get them on a freight train even though they're going to have to get on a barge sooner or later.
Is this just a possibility or have they already agreed to accept the cars? I live in VA so if they're dropping cars in North Carolina I could go watch.
I believe at least 300 redbirds will be in action until january 2003 when the R142 option order arrives. -Nick
I also have a funny feeling that it is possible that by the Memorial Day weekend of next year (2002) there may be very few if any "Redbirds" remaining in service.
#3 West End Jeff
There will probably still be a few around, unless the delivery rate picks up over the next nine months. They probably will be gone if they have enough R-142 deliveries to fill the Lennox and Livonia yards for the No. 3 train, after E. 180th gets all its R-142s for the No. 2 and No. 5 trains. The Flushing Line can't lose it's Redbirds until the cars are in so the No. 3 train can start giving up its R-62As to the No. 7.
How will the delivery rate pick up? The state already has an allotted amount of Redbird cars to intercept and place them overboard from the barge.
Of course, the state's Environmental Society agreed to take an "x" amount of cars, It won't change.
As for the remainder of the Redbird cars, the T/A must wait for the approval for NJ and local states in the East Coast to dump them. New Jersey hasn't accepted the Redbirds because of the asbestos in the walls, and the T/A is awaiting.
Railfan Pete.
It looks as if many of the "Redbirds" that are still on the IRT Corona Flushing line will be gone by the Memorial Day weekend of next year. We shall see what we shall see.
#3 West End Jeff
what types of trains where at the tour yesterday.any r142s
We only were allowed to tour the maintenance shops and not the yard. There were R-62's, 38's, 32's, 42's, and redbirds being stripped for scrapping. May have been some 142's parked in the yard though I did not see them. Also three 110's were parked right outside the shop.
We had an opportunity to examine an R-142 truck, and disassembled components, up close in the maintenance shop, and compare it to both fully assembleed and disassembled "universal trucks" which are used, and are adaptable for several car types.
Did you guys get to see any of the gutted Redbirds being readied for the barges for the inevitable dumping?
BTW, I wouldn't think that a tour of the yard would be possible since you'd be walking near live third rail, and the ERA (or anyone else) would not want to deal with the problems of the legalities involved...
BMTman
1) Yes, we did see some Redbirds being made ready (there's a section of the shop, and a Superintendent, especially for that). We were able to get a glimpse of the barge too, though not a close-up look. The Redbirds lose their glass, motors, oil, wheels, resistor grids, and even handles. The latest order is for straphanger handles to be removed and stored.
Anything which can float is removed.
2) We were allowed a very short distance into the yard, walking alongside tracks with the third rail on the opposite side from us. At no time were we allowed onto the trackbed itself and we were supervised.
A couple of motormen gave us a friendly honk.
The yard is designed to interchangeably take "A" and "B" division cars, and have signals with tripcocks located on both sides of each track. Once in the yard, any train can take any track.
On the far side of the yard we could see the car wash. Otherwise there was nothing of interest outside the barns.
I don't know if any of the group visited the signals shop.
I should mention at this point that the TA superintendents and plant protection people were wonderful, gracious hosts who answered questions cheerfully and made us feel welcome. If any of them are reading Subtalk, I want to express my appreciation to them. Thank you very much for a great tour.
Yep. About 3 to 4 Redbirds were being stipped as the tour proceeded. Will have pictures later on of the entire tour.
Paul
Most notably, "quad seven" (7777) and its younger brother, 7776. I've sent pix of them to Dave for posting when he has a chance.
So dish ... "why are these trucks not like the other trucks?" (and somebody restrain Salaamallah) ...
Thanks to the E.R.A. and all the T.A. employees that gave us a great tour of the 207th Street overhaul shop on Saturday. John Fernandez led our group and went out of his way to show us (especially) the workings of the truck components. I praise the workers who maintain and overhaul the cars so well.
I think NYers are getting softer. First time I went, they were as rude as I expected. The past two times I 've been there, you guys were more polite. I'm kinda disapointed in y'all, I liked the rudeness.
Most people in NYC seem quite polite and friendly, at least compared to those here in Northern Nassau. I can't stand all the rich snobs in Roslyn and Great Neck, they are the meanest and greediest.
We're not nicer you just got used to it.
NJT spokesman Thomas Marchwinski announced that population density along the route 1 corridor in Mercer County isn't sufficient to support a light rail line. "Bus rapid transit" (on congested route 1?????!!!!!!) will be considered instead.
Sunday Trenton Times story
That sounds like a contradiction. I always felt that a bus is not rapid transit. A bus is actually a vehicle of "Mass Transit". I guess NJT disagrees. I know of a piece of equipment, the forerunner of the bus, which WAS qualified to be considered "Rapid Transit". It was called a PCC car and while it was on private right of way it sure was rapid. It ran in Newark NJ. Considering running times are greatly increased, those new whatever you want to call thems, aren't rapid transit either, but that's for another thread.
Maybe they took their cue from Boston's Bus Rapid Transit (the "Silver" Line).
--Mark
Oh, gee, when New Jersey had the opportunity to forestall this kind of hodge-podge sprawl and impose just a little order and planning so a formerly agricultural county wouldn't be paved over from one end to the other, they didn't do it.
Oh well.
Bus Rapid Transit is the biggest boondogle going. AFAIK, *no* single BRT system (outside of one in Brazil that's very rail like in operation and design), has ever been any sort of success.
Once you get to permenant dedicated ROWs and "guideway" construction, what's the point of it? Lay track and do it better (and cheaper ultimately)
At least they arent' going into what the NYS DOT is proposing for LI - busses on the Southern State. Only NY won't call them buses - they're "rapid commute vehicles" I kid you not - they actually say they're NOT busses.
If it creeks like a bus, rides like and bus and is slow like a bus - well gee, it's a bus!
I often find myself on the opposite side of the table from you, Philip, but, I second your opinion. You've really hit it on the head. Bravo.
buses on the Southern State
Be sure to duck under those overpasses :)
--Mark
What is the (alleged) difference between a bus and a RTB?
The expression "bus rapid transit" may have been invented by the reporter. He was just referring to a bus.
BRT, Bus Rapid Transit, is supposedly an "enhanced bus system". Enhanced meaning that rather than standard diesel buses operating in mixed traffic, BRT has a seperated ROW and they generally use ETB's (electric trolley-buses).
Something like the bus tunnel in Seattle, which, btw, when I was there last year, there were tracks in it, so I guess it can easily be converted to rail operations.
In fact, the whole bus tunnel thing, with the fancy stations and what-not, is very much like a Boston-type trolley subway (and what the Newark system once was), where numerous lines from the outlying areas all feed into the subway.
I guess the Seattle bus tunnel is the epitome of BRT.
It appears as though Star-Ledger reporter Barry Carter has been reading heypaul's recent SubTalk posts on his experience on the NCS.
Sunday Star-Ledger story
Phooey on those rolling refrigerators! They should have left well enough alone! What price progress anyway?
wayne
I noticed that the report said the cars were Japanesse - made. Which company? And as for NJT, they've should've taken an extra couple of weekends with subsitute bus service to test out the new stuff. They're across the Hudson, they should've known what happens when gold-plated items are rushed into service.
The company that makes them is KinkiSharyo.
As for testing, you can only do so much. If you follow Bob's link to the Star Ledger article, you'll see that we've been testing since February in the yard and on weekends over the whole system since June. Still, no test prepares you for regular revenue service. You can simulate all types of headways and runs, but there is an important factor missing in all the simulations: the customers. It's a big change for them, too.
Finally, we're still not running weekends while the connection to Belleville/Bloomfield is finished.
Michael
You can simulate all types of headways and runs, but there is an important factor missing in all the simulations: the customers.
I must be missing something here. I don't want to seem unreasonable, but I don't see how the presence of passengers changes the demands on the equipment. Is it the extra weight in the cars? The humidity caused by their breathing? While a passenger, such as myself has no way of knowing about the underlying causes, the connection between circuit breakers popping all over the place and the presence of passengers escapes me. Could you enlighten us?
BTW, and at the risk of making this sound like Watergate or Iran-Contra, what did NJT know and when did they know it? In other words, what problems were revealed in advance by all that testing and what problems were revealed for the first time on opening day?
Well, there was a subway system that shut down when loaded, due to the weight of the passengers compressing the floor into the wiring and causing a short circuit. Took weeks to diagnose.
Come to think of it, the first day the Red Line was open in DC, there were so many people stuffed into the cars that they flexed in the middle to the point that the doors would not close completely.
Of course, that was an extreme situation.
And in a repeat of last weekend's GO, we have next week's:
D service - normal 207 to 34 St(barring other GOs), then local stops to 2nd Ave terminal.
Q service - extended to 21 St/Queensbridge.
N & R service NORTHBOUND - Local to 36 St/4 Ave then Pacific, bypass DeKalb, over bridge, Canal St then normal. R express in Queens from Queens Plaza to Roosevelt.
N & R service SOUTHBOUND - normal service on R; normal service on N to 36 St, then all stops on West End Line to Stillwell.
E & F service - SOUTHBOUND local from Roosevelt to Queens Plaza then normal; NORTHBOUND normal then express Queens Plaza to Roosevelt.
W service - NO W SERVICE.
Reasons - Queens Blvd D2 and D3 tracks out of service for asbestos abatement.
Northbound DeKalb Ave B2 Track out of service for Concrete Pour.
Northbound Montague St Tunnel B2 Track out of service for fireline replacement.
B2 Track -Whitehall to Canal st pout of service for structural repairs and water damage.
So the E, F, and R trains will all operate express between Queens Plaza and Roosevelt going Northbound?
And, the E, F, and R trains will all operate local between Roosevelt and Queens Plaza?
Are those southbound E/F trains going local due to track work on the s/b express track, or to compensate for the fact that n/b local stations between Queens Plaza and Roosevelt will be closed?
Southbound express and northbound local tracks are BOTH out of service - ain't no where else to run them.
"Reasons - Queens Blvd D2 and D3 tracks out of service for asbestos abatement. "
hey seven you out there? yummy asbestos! no need to go up metro north to get it!
Who's minding the store on the Sea Beach? The gulls?
wayne
You forgot to cover the IRT lines. The 4 is split again: one section between Woodlawn and 149th, and the other from 138th-3rd Av to Bklyn. All southbound 5s will be 2s from 149th to Chambers, thru the loop, and then back on the east side.
And the 5s will most likely run all night. They did previously.
-Stef
I only get the GOs for one division, namely the one I'm working in.
No (W) service ?
Will anything run on the West End elevated ?
Bill "Newkirk"
From what I undersand, there will only be CI bound N trains making all stops on West End.
207 to 34? Don't you mean 205 to 34?
Sorry.
The N will be running on both lines. Northbound it will run over the Sea Beach; southbound over the West End.
So if you're going from, say, Midtown to Kings Highway-West 6th Street (the Sea Beach) you're SOL - you have to go to Coney Island, cross over and get the "N" going the other way. I see mass confusion here. Are they going to use tracks 7 & 8 for all service? I would assume the s/b West End would have to cross all the way over from track 1 to track 7 or 8. Wot a mess!
wayne
Tracks 1 and 2 will most likely be shut down for the occassion. Once the N gets to Coney Island it will cross from Track D1 over to E1 and E2. It will also be a convenience for me, since I'll have to leave from 20th Avenue (for work) and head back to Coney Island via New Utrecht Av.
If there are no Ws running, why use Track 1 and 2?
-Stef
Hmmm...concrete pour at De Kalb Avenue, wonder what they're up to there - has the rehab begun? Just curious what they're going to pour the concrete into/onto.
wayne
Nah. They're pouring concrete into the switches at the south end of the northbound A4 (Q,Q) track.
About 20 years ago I was taking the "R" train downtown going toward 95 St. South of 36 St, After the "B" (now the "W") veered off to the left to make the ramp going up toward 9 Ave, There was another ramp that went downhill and a left turn going east. What was that supposed to have been? It wasn't a turnoff to go under the Narrows going to Staten Island. That is at 59 St. Was that supposed to have been a lead to the yard? Or another line that was never otherwise built? At that site now is a tin fence.
That was the original plan for a West End connection.
The four track turnout that you saw was originally to have been a connection to a four track route going east under 40 Street(#11F).The turnouts extend as far as the east building line of 4 Avenue.After construction had begun it was decided to make the connection into the West End and Culver Lines via "Culver Cut." This involved removing the original south half of the 36 Street Station and extending the platforms to the north. The orignal south mezzanine of the 36 Street Station is still intact hough sealed off.
Larry,RedbirdR33
In Brennan's Site "Abandoned Stations" etc. this is diagrammed in the section for "9th Avenue Lower Level"
Click On this Link to view the diagrams.
wayne
After hearing the story about this $60 ticket, it reminded me of a problem that I had with NY's finest, but it was not a transit cop.
Last Year, I went to the ticker-tape parade for the Yankees. I woke up at 4:15 AM, and took the 5:28 AM metro-north train into GCT. I grabbed a front-row spot for the parade at city hall by 7:10 AM, and the parade didn't even start till after noon....but I got there early determined to get a front-row spot, and I thought that this had been accomplished.
Unfortunately, some people who showed up HOURS after me (like 10 AM) were pushing and shoving, trying to get to the front. I was not surprised by this, but at the same time I tried to be polite, and asked them nicely to stop. But they ignored me, and the police didn't seem to care either. In fact, the police had not tried to patrol much...even though lots of crazy things (like ppl throwing things) was occuring.
More time passed, the parade started, and now the shoving got worse, to the point where the people who showed up much later took me out of my front row spot!! I was unhappy about this, the police were not patrolling anything, so i decided to defend my territory and do some minimal pushing and shoving in order to get my spot back. As soon as I started to do this, a police officer screamed in my face that I better stop pushing, or I would be arrested. I explained the situation, but she didn't care....I was still going to be arrested if I didn't stop. Well, I wasn't about to miss the rest of the parade (especially with the subway car at the end!), so I cooled my jets.
However, something was very disturbing with this situation. I want to believe that this police precint was just not prepared or did not know how to handle the crowd (even though thats pretty bad too). But the thing that got me is that I am white, the officer that yelled at me was black, and the people who were pushing me and finally got to the front were hispanic.
We all know that racial profiling occurs in the City, becasue we here stories like abner louima, and one of my black friends have had problems with the NY cops too. Now, I don't believe that all cops are like this....I know that there are many, many wonderful people on the force. But I swear, to this day I still have a feeling that I have been a victim of "reverse racial profiling." I did not have a paper or pen, otherwise I would have written down the cops name, badge # and precint, and had made a formal complaint.
I have zero tolerance for this kind of behavior. -Nick
Before going off - topic here, let me just say that the NYPD is having MAJOR problems handling itself right now, more than the Commish Kerik and the PBA Pres. Lynch is willing to admit. Events in the last few months have proven it.
As to the "reverse racial profiling" thing, I'll say that I'm very disapponted and even embarrased, although not surprised.
"As to the "reverse racial profiling" thing, I'll say that I'm very disapponted and even embarrased, although not surprised."
I hear ya! -Nick
it could just be that the guy was upset enough dealing with the crowds, and you happened to push a little harder, and just hard enough to make him notice and get irritated.
"it could just be that the guy was upset enough dealing with the crowds, and you happened to push a little harder, and just hard enough to make him notice and get irritated."
I really want to believe, and maybe this was the situation. But again, I am a white male, and it was a black female cop yelling at me, and the people who were doing the pushing were hispanics. With all the bad racial things that have happened regarding the NYPD, its just one of those things you can't rule out, and its hard to decide exactly what the case is...I'll admit that. -Nick
What makes you think that the typical black cop likes Latinos any better than they like whites? Non-whites do not, as a rule, consider themselves to be single group. For that matter, you should here some of the remarks that foreign-born blacks make about native born blacks and that Latinos from some countries make about Latinos from others. Like my teacher said to a classmate years ago, "I don't care who started it. I'm talking to you because you're the one I saw."
>>> it could just be that the guy was upset enough dealing with the crowds, and you happened to push a little harder, and just hard enough to make him notice and get irritated. <<<
You are being naive. The most likely explanation is that this police officer did not want to confront a group of rowdy Hispanics fearing that she could not control the situation and it might escalate into a minor riot. When Nick started pushing back, that too could cause an escalation. In order to keep the peace this officer found it expedient to ignore Nick's right to his front row position, and concentrate on him, since he was not supported by a group, rather than the others.
Tom
Tom,
sounds like you might be on to what the situation may have been; thank you for your input. Thanks to all who have contributed to this thread. :-) -Nick
One solution: ban all parades.
they're dumb. they cost a lot of money. they tie up traffic. when you get large groups of people together, personal responsibility defuses to crowd mentality. throw in some booze, or a hot day, and there should be no surprises about people getting their pockets picked, pushed, beaten, or even sexually assaulted as per that parade a year or so ago...
Ban them all, period.
These events are not handled at the precient level, but at the boro command level (in this case, MSTF (Manhattan South Task Force)) They pull officers who may have been on scheduled off days, or on other shifts, to pull overtime to cover such events. While the money is nice, they lose the needed family time. That's why you're likely to find someone VERY unhappy.
-Hank
PS-At that last parade, my cousin, who had called in sick to work to attend, was hit in the head by a steel beam that fell from some scaffolding. (She was OK) She made the papers...
-Hank
I will be at Seashore Trolley Museum in Maine for the Member's Day Weekend of October 5-6. I haven't been there in about 12 years and would appreciate any info about what to ride and mayebe any good bookstores in the area. I can be reached at "RedbirdR33@hotmail.com"
Thanks,
Larry,RedbirdR33
Larry, unfortunately I won't be there that weekend, as I'll be in San Francisco riding their great transit system.
But at Seashore, you can be certain there will be a good variety of cars out. Your ticket is good all day, so you can ride everything they bring out. Be sure to tell the dispatcher you're a rail fan, and he'll point you in the right direction for the cars of your interest.
While Seashore has an extensive gift shop with a complete line of books, videos, etc., I don't know of any other good bookstores in the areas.
Larry, be sure to look at the SOAC cars and the tower (if they let anybody climb up there). The amont of space is probably 3 times what Shoreline has but unfortuately they have fewer barns to preserve the equipment.
Also be sure to check out the double-decker trolley from Europe.
Hartbus: Thanks, I understand that they have an R-1 up there now as well as the two R-4's. Hopefully I'll get to see the Gibbs Hi-V.
Larry,RedbirdR33
I went up to Danbury on the New Haven line today, and I saw some things that made me want to ask you guys who have more knowledge than I do about them. There is a line that is double tracked which passes close to the Danbury Railroad museum and the MCNR layup tracks - what is this line and where does it go to? It is still in use, if the condition of the tracks means anything, and how often do freights pass through on a daily basis? The catenary was nowhere to be seen up there, but the New Cannan branch is single track, like Danbury, yet it still has the overhead. Why? The museum has some nice locomotives and rolling stock, but do they have some excursions from time to time? The NY Central F unit would give a real good ride and good photo shots to some of the shutterbugs out there. The rest of the branch has a real bucolic feel to it, however I do wonder if freights run on that branch from time to time. Any ideas?
Another question on that is does the museum still have its LIRR powerpack 617 FA-1, the ex-New Haven locomotive?
Sure does, and it is visible from the Danbury Station. It could use a good paint job.
The tracks near the station in Danbury are those of the former New Haven Railroad Maybrook line. They stretch from a junction with the Amtrak mainline between Bridgeport and New Haven west to Beacon, N.Y., (reached by the ex-NH Beacon branch) and are part of the Housatonic Railroad. The Danbury branch, where the passenger trains run, does see some freight at night, as I recall.
The line from South Norwalk to Danbury had been electrified until the early 1960s - you can still find a catenary pole here or there. The New Haven scrapped the electrification at a time when economic trouble forced cutbacks and traffic levels were dropping considerably. Plus, they had recently bought dual-mode FL9 diesels for passenger trains that could run through into Grand Central Terminal or Penn Station without an engine change. The cut up most of their electric locomotives - such as EP-3s and EP-4s - and relied on the 10 EP-5s built in 1955 and the FL9 diesels for passenger trains and diesels for freight (until the ex-Virginian rectifiers came along about 1963).
Are there good photo opportunities for catching freights on that line?
With the tracks being so close to the railroad museum, a long drag fresubt would be real nice to photograph.
Are there good photo opportunities for catching freights on that line?
With the tracks being so close to the railroad museum, a long drag freref
Are there good photo opportunities for catching freights on that line?
With the tracks being so close to the railroad museum, a long drag freight would be real nice to photograph.
The F-unit unfortunately is dead (or at least crippled), or at least so I was told when I was there on August 1st.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I HATE METRO NORTH
I have just returned from a short weekend getaway in Ohio. Caught
the Three Rivers on the way home, which, quelle surprise, ran early,
arriving into Philly at 16.12. I waited for it to reverse towards
Trenton (by the way hauled by an E-60 #603) where I transferred to
the late-running Train 166 (NEDirect). This train was AEM-7 powered
and had lost 15 mins by Trenton -- but the engineer was making his
(or her) best efforts to make up time, and overtook the E-60 on the
express track several times, whilst running on NJTransit local track.
Now for the killer. We were about 10 mins down leaving New York Penn
due to exceptional passenger loadings. When it came to the place
where we would exchange onto Metro North trackage -- we got checked,
and, get this, we got MADE TO WAIT 10 MINS with nothing coming, apart
from two southbound EMUs, which doesn't cross our paths anyway (I
don't think). Therefore, METRO NORTH CAN EAT S**T for delaying a late running express in which Royalty was riding.
And "Royalty" means who?
Lexcie,
I can certainly understand your frustrations...it sucks anytime unnecessary delays happen. Heck, it sucks when normal or unforseen delays occur :-)
But Metro-North is not the only rail company that does that sorta thing. Amtrak has had their share of causing delays...especially when Acela Express had just started, rush hour trains were stopped. One time I was trapped between Back Bay and South Station for 45 minutes during the rush hour while we waited for one of the 8 tracks to open up at south station.
I'm pretty sure every rail company has their problems with causing these unnecessary delays; certainly improvements are needed and encouraged, but for the most part dealing with it is what you'll most likely have to do.
I have never ridden the metro-north that goes through Trenton, but I must say that I rarely experience any major (or even minor) delays on the New Haven Line. But I'm sorry you had to deal with that. -Nick
I'm pretty sure every rail company has their problems with causing these unnecessary delays;
Try NJ TRANSIT's normal service running trains. These trains are always running late 60% of the time! Even during AM rush!!!.
But if you observe the trains at Metuchen, NJ, AM rush between 6:05AM and 6:48AM is a blast! Trains come up to 1 minute early, but because of this, we get held up until we're running an ON-TIME schedule.
I have never ridden the metro-north that goes through Trenton,
Metro-North doesn't go to Trenton, nor in any points in NJ. Lexcie must be talking about the AMTRAK train there. Long-distance AMTRAK passengers MUST change trains en route to/from NYP due to the fact that tracks out west and south are not electrified.
: )
Railfan Pete.
Just because you no haw to use bold text doesn't mean you should use it for every post. All that it does is annoy people.
Thank You.
His use of bolding was completely appropiate and unobtrusive. I would suggest you find something legitimate to complain about.
i agree
Uh-oh, don't tell me you're coming down with HPS!:-)
Now that I have reread that post I think you are correct. However, his use of html and CAPS LOCK in almost every post is starting to get to me.
What's wrong with HTML? I think that using Cascading Style Sheets is a bit much for a message board post.
Long-distance AMTRAK passengers MUST change trains en route to/from NYP due to the fact that tracks out west and south are not electrified.
Actually in most cases.. the trains change locomotives.
That is more reasonable. But how would they hump locomotives and from where? How is the process engaged?
: )
Railfan Pete.
The changeover points are at Philadelphia and at Washington (and formerly also at New Haven). I only experienced the procedure at New Haven. They just disconnect the electric loco, drive it away, then bring in a diesel from the yard. At New Haven the switch took 20-25 minutes and during the changeover the train had no HEP (cold in winter!). One of the biggest gains in time from this whole Acela project was simply that the through electrification to Boston saved the time of the engine change.
Don't trains to Hartford, Springfield and Vermont still have to change engines at New Haven?
Yes, they still do change power at New Haven. But for the most part, Amtrak has turned the Inland Route into a Springfield-Hartford-New Haven shuttle. Two Amfleet cars pulled or pushed by Genesis (P40's I think, they number in the 800's) diesels is the usual shuttle train consist. Really they should put DMUs on the Springfield/Hartford trains and send the Amfleet cars and Genesis engines elsewhere.
Except Pascack Valley and Port Jervis Lines (contract operatedby NJ Transit but using some Metro-North locomotives and rolling stock.
I would think there's some other explanation. Amtrak owns Penn and rules it--ask the LIRR. I can't believe the dispatchers would hold an Amtrak train for an M-N unless there were some exotic reason.
I understand that Amtrak owns NYP, but I don't understand the connection between that ownership and the described delay. The Hellgate route merges into the New Haven line in Westchester. Unless I misunderstood Lexcie's post, that was where his train was delayed. Does Amtrak control the passage of eastbound trains through that interlocking from NYP? If not, who controls that traffic? MNCRR?
I misunderstood the post. Actually, considering the way Amtrak treats LIRR, having sister agency MNRR dump on Amtrak seems like tit-for-tat.
The reason for the hold may have been because Track 4 is out of service between Harrison and Stamford. Metro North may have wanted to hold the (late) Amtrak short of New Rochelle interlocking as otherwise it might have had to be held short of Pike interlocking (between Harrison and Rye).
You are right, though - Metro North gives priority to its own operations! It seems that the only Amtrak service that gets good treatment is the Acela Express.
Naturally, the host railroad will give prioroty to its' own trains. After all, the host railroad is paying the dispatchers' salary! The host railroad is more concerned about their on time performance than AMTRAK'S!........The shoe is on the other foot between D.C. & NYP. Thru NJ, for example, NJT trains play second fiddle to AMTRAK trains because the railroad and dispatchers belong to AMTRAK, not NJT.
Both you and Bill are not quite right on this subject.
Metro-North does not consistently give its own trains priority. Amtrak is in fact, afforded priority on ROW; you are correct in that Acela Express is given priority over anything else, generally (including any commuter train or other service). You can't get an accurate sense of this just from a few personal trips.
The situation will remain complicated until the catenary replacement project is over. That's going to take a while.
I think that the "practical" rule Metro North applies is that although Amtrak has priority on the ROW if it shows up on time, it loses priority if it is late.
The wire replacement project in Connecticut is not scheduled to conclude until 2006(!!) At least for the next year, we will have one track out of service west of Stamford, and one track out at Stamford for station reconstruction (not the same track).
Yes, correct on priority. A commuter train will not sit all day in New Haven waiting for Acela to show up.
2006? Well, there's hope. Speed can actually increase prior to 2006:
Consider that train operation can become faster under the new wire. That is, when three out of fourmainline wires are done, the speed restrictions can be lifted on those wires.
Yes from a few trips, you really can't get a sense of whether or not Amtrak's trains get priority over Metro-North's. An Amtrak trip along the M-N part of the of the Corridor can be unpredictable. I've ridden that line many times while in college and there were times where Amtrak trains zipped along without a problem and others where maybe walking would have been faster. On several occasions my Amtrak train crawled along the electrified Corridor and then flew up the non-electrified Inland Route towards Hartford. And on quite a few occasions my Amtrak train slowed at Shell interlocking to a crawl and continued to crawl until about Co-Op City. You never know what to expect.
Rather intemperate rant for a 10 min. delay.
Royalty? Ten minutes is nothing. Try the 75-80 minute delays on the 2 train.
>Try the 75-80 minute delays on the 2 train.
Show me where... and I just might.
OH MY GOD! Ten minutes late!!! I recently went on a trip to Chicago on the Capitol Limited. It was three hours late getting there because of the CSX train derailment in Martinsburg, West Virginia. Coming back from that same trip the southbound Capitol was three and a half hours late because a power outage messed up all the signals in the Amtrak yard. How about the Empire Builder during the winter? It runs up to 24 hours late sometimes. Another thing - you are not royalty.
The Empire Builder route to Seattle has always been a keen route to me. Anyone know anything about it?
: )
Railfan Pete.
Speculation, wishful thinking and dreams have yet to decide the fate of the R110Bs.
IMHO the best bet is to break them up and insert them with the R143s as "B" units. One per eight car set. That is , seven R143s and one R110B. this will give you a minscule gain of seven feet per set.
Not an earth shattering gain, except for the "L" riders, who will gladly take what they can get.
Its not quite a 2% gain, but with nine sets expanded this way and schedualed for the meat of the A.M. and P.M rush some comfort will go to a deserving riding public.
Maybe a two and six combo could still fit on the platforms of the "J","L","M", and "Z".
I just hope they don't wind up orphans like their older cousins the R11s, exiled to shuttle service from Limbo to Purgatory!
avid
The R110B is a 67' car and a R143 is a 60' car.
Yes, you know that and I know that.
Since the standards, 67ft. long, once ran these routes, put these R/110b to where they can give ADDED service, not just service.
avid
Does anybody ride the CAF cars yet? I am interested in their performance.
I tried to ride CAF cars on the Green line several weeks ago, but I did not see them.
Chaohwa
I was on the yellow line yesterday and didn't see them. I think one must be in the right place at the right time.
I have a few minutes now so I will post at least the first part of my travels of the past week:
After taking the Metro to Union Station, I took Metroliner 110 to Newark. I was in the Quiet Car (quite an experience, I've done it 4 times now) which was the 2nd car from the front (behind first class and the AEM-7). When I got out at Newark to transfer to the PATH, there were turnstiles where I got off but they were blocked off (and there was a WTC-bound train on the other side). After walking almost all the way to the rear of my Metroliner, I found an open turnstile and attempted to put in my money. The machine wouldn't accept it and I had to switch. By this time, the "DEPARTING" light had come on and as luck would have it, if they closed the right side doors first, then left, I would have made it. It didn't really matter since I had time and now I could get to the front. The next train was 10 minutes later and was led by car number 725. This was my first ride on PATH in many years and first at the window. Quite a nice ride although after Journal Square, it was quite slow. I got off at Exchange Place. The conductor on the train wanted to chat with his couleege and was attempting to convince me to move my suitcase, backpack, and myself back about 5 seats so he could fully open the door. In the end, I stuck my stuff in the storm doorway and sat in the first seat behind the window on the left. The reason I make such a big deal out of this is that when we left Grove, he announced Exchange Place was next and was the transfer to Hoboken-bound trains but there was no mention of no exit from the first car. He did wait for me to get through to the next car once we arrived but he told me "Now don't leave anything because I don't want them calling me."
I missed the Hoboken bound train and waited 10 minutes for another. I can't recall the number of the train I was on. It was also quite slow. At Hoboken, I went up and had about 15 minutes before my NJT train to Ridgewood via the Main Line. Now, some questions about the whole thing:
1. I was on an NJT trian to Suffern, NY. Do any NJT trains run thru to Port Jervis? How often does MNRR operate? Is it express or local?
2. At Ridgewood, there is an express platform. What uses it? There were no express tracks that I could see. Are they on the Bergen Line?
3. Why do they run these long 5 or 6 car trains? We were only allowed to use the last three.
The ride was relaxing although the scenery of the surrounding area between stations is left to be desired. I could have sworn there was some lime green water near the trackbed near one of the stations.
Ridgewood is a rather nice place. After spending the afternoon there, I took Flxible Metro-B 3093 from Ridgewood to the GWBT in New York. The fare system is quite unique. The only thing they should do is make those buses easier for people with suitcases (someone else had one larger than mine). Also, I paid $3.95 when I was told it was $3.25 by someone here. No complaints to that person but who was making the error???
Once I got a single-ride ticket for the bus at the subway stop at the terminal (I lacked small bills at the time and didn't want to deal with the agent), I went up to Broadway and 178th. The bus stop signage is quite poor there. In fact, none of the routes are listed on the sign. After figuring out the M4 stopped 1 block west, I went over there to discover NJT 3093 (the bus I was on) signed for GARDEN STATE PLAZA PARAMUS blocking most traffic. Two MTA people with Manhattanville hats were figuring out how to get the uptown M4s around the mess (downtown could still get by). The signage at GWBT is something left to be desired. Going through that much trouble to get to the bus is not very nice.
It seemed 3093 hit a car when it was turning north on Broadway. Not a major accident but police were there. The bus was empty.
Once RTS 8762 came, I took it to where I spent the night.
More on my trip to Boston on the Acela, railfanning the T Blue Line, and my visit to the Seashore Trolley Museum in Kennebunkport, ME when I get a chance.
One of the negatives regarding push/
pull equipment such as what is operated on Hoboken/Suffern/Port Jervis and the like is the semni fixed consists. The engine has to be on one end and the cab control car, of course is on the other end. Years ago with the old equipment, the engine was ran around the train, rather labor intensive. To take out cars of the middle of a semi-fixed push/pull consist, while saving on operating and mileage costs, would also be labor intensive. And today labor costs are high.
I took the 175 bus from NYC-GWB to Ridgewood yesterday, the fare was $3.95, which is standard for 5 zone interstate fare.
The person told me it was a 4 zone fare. That explains something.
Thanks.
The extra zone does explain it. The basic interstate fare is $1.25 (which actually does not exist, the only one zone interstate ride is from the GWB to just over the bridge in Fort Lee, but to fight competition from the van services that fare has been reduced to $1.00). Aside from the $1 fare, the cheapest interstate is a 2 zone ride which is $1.90, 3 zones = $2.55 4 zones = $ 3.25 and 5 zones are $3.95.
It is not a matter of some trains to PJ being NJT and others being MNCRR. All trains to PJ operate under the same arrangement between NJT and MTA. As to exactly what that arrangement is, I am not absolutely sure. I believe that MTA supplies some or all of the equipment and pays a fee or subsidy to NJT, but NJT actually operates the line. Maybe someone else knows more about this.
The equipment (coaches, locomotives) are owned by NJ Transit but some are leased to MNRR, so they have MN logos and paint on them. However MN did transfer some of their Shoreliners from East-of-Hudson to West-of-Hudson. I don't know if they're still fully owned by MN, but they do still have the blue window band and blue and red seats.
Although I haven't seen those cars on any line except the Main/Bergen and maybe Pascack Valley, some of the NJT-owned MN Comets and locomotives regularly run on the other Hoboken division lines.
1. I was on an NJT trian to Suffern, NY. Do any NJT trains run thru to Port Jervis? How often does MNRR operate? Is it express or local?
Yes they do on the BERGEN COUNTY LINE only. Consider studying the schedules extensively at this link: NJT schedules .
Look on the departure TV screens at Hoboken. It will say "To: Port Jervis", "Comments: Through train."
OW transit time is approx. 2 1/2 hours, n/b and s/b all stops, and 2 hrs. 15 minutes EXPRESS n/b and s/b.
Schedules and frequency really depend on a weekday or a weekend. On weekdays, selected trains are express, I don't know how to explain in a single statement on how NJT maintains these two Northern NJ lines. Roughly, it's every 30-40 minutes from Hoboken, but only select trains go directly to Port Jervis.
See the schedules page on the link above and check from there.
2. At Ridgewood, there is an express platform. What uses it? There were no express tracks that I could see. Are they on the Bergen Line?
Three tracks are here. seldomly, MTA Metro-North Commuter Railroad trains (maintained by NJT in the NJ area) runs through here. I honestly do not know what it is used for.
BUT, s/b trains from PORT JERVIS operate EXPRESS to HOBOKEN. The only stops they make is all of them in upstate NY, Suffern, RIDGEWOOD, and no stops to Hoboken.
Or, you MAY get a detailed response from BOB SCHEURLE, an NJT expert, though not a worker of NJT. He will MOST LIKELY have the best response for this. (Believe me, he knows a LOT about NJT. Ask him ANY railfan question (except "What are the machinery purposes under the Arrow EMU's?")
3. Why do they run these long 5 or 6 car trains? We were only allowed to use the last three.
This makes the job MUCH easier for NJT workers. Consider this, most Hoboken Division trains run back and forth and use the same train. They do not go to the Meadowlands yard (the closest to Hoboken Terminal) and hump cars there. There is already too much work needing to be done in that shop (I saw an Arrow EMU inside the garages), and during high ridership (i.e. RUSH HOUR), extra cars may be opened.
Sorry for a long post, but I hope you get something out of it.
: )
Railfan Pete.
See why I told you to allow at least 50 minutes for your PATH transfer?
Hey, was WC tower still there?
The crumbling Douglas branch of the Blue Line begins its reconstruction today.
Chicago Sun-Times article
Also, the Chicago Skyway will be undergoing a major reconstruction project which includes replacing some of the steel superstructure of the approach viaduct with a filled enbankment.
Chicago Tribune article
-- David
Chicago, IL
I see my old friend, the Skyway, is getting a once-over. It was a white elephant for a long time. I've managed to take a few photos of it, including a telephoto shot from the Sears Tower.
Can't get the TA website from work, either. Did they change the URL or are they still down?
Tony
It's probably just down again, it does that alot.
Peace,
ANDEE
They must be doing some majot fiddling. Yesterday the names wouldn't even resolve--I couldn't reach the name servers (and there are four, three of them on separate lines). I couldn't reach the site by IP address either--but then it came up later in the day.
I don't know whether they're having problems, hack attacks, or just don't care if the site is down during maintenance.
Probably "just don't care if the site is down during maintenance". It's such a feedback-poor site even when it's up and running. Even NYC's websites are better.
BUT I NEED TO BYE SOME RAIL TICKETS ONLINE, DAMNIT! Oh, sorry. ^_^
It's only temporary. The TA website is up and running within 1-2 days ago.
The thing is still down. Or is it just me?
yep all train lines have derailed causing the website to be down. (I just joking:)
It's down.
I wonder how much they pay whoever maintains that site?
...and if it's being hit by a DOS attack, or just incompetance?
I put up David Cole's writeup, with Bob Vogel's and Ed Sachs' photos of the Chicago Fieldtrip
Enjoy!
Dave
Wow, that was fast!
Looks great... Thanks!
-- David
Chicago, IL
Good report!
Thanks David and Dave.
I'm sending my pictures to David Cole today so hopefully in a few days, he'll send them up to Dave Pirman for addition to the report.
I liked that head-on shot of 4391.
Yesterday in Manhattan, I took the 4 from Atlantic up to 77th. Yes, 77th and Lex. Normally, only the 6 stops here and I didn't see/read any GOs that the 4 was running local. The 4 was express up to 59th Street. Anyone know what was going on?
Also, an off-topic question? Just south of 120th and the East River Drive there is an old, abandoned building that has demolition permits on the wondows. This is a very large structure comprised of several buildings. What was it used for?
The old building you saw at FDR and 120th is probably the Washburn Wire Company. They plan to put in a shopping mall.
You can't run express to 59th and then change to the local. The crossover must be made at 42nd Street.
If it was a GO, I heard they don't always post the express running local (but they always post local running express). When I took the northbound 2 in June, we went local without any notices.
<< You can't run express to 59th and then change to the local. The crossover must be made at 42nd Street. >>
True. I meantthat we made express stops until 42nd and then local from there. My first clue was when we stopped at 51st.
I found this interesting link in the news:
American Dream or Nightmare?
I've sent this to people I know who have to deal with long vehicle commutes. While I am thankful every day that I live in a community that invested in public transportation, I still wish I could have also e-mailed the article back in time to Robert Moses.
MATT-2AV
Don't say that name in here - yeeech pootey!!
Call it an exercise in short-sightedness.
People get caught up in thew euphoria of new technology and new ideas and fail to see the ramifications.
Just look at Boston and the whole "Big Dig" debacle. While I don't know if more transit was the issue, a lack of forethought is now costing a future generation billions of dollars to correct. I'm convinced that Philadelphia will soon experience the same problem. Our world famous Schuylkill/"Surekill" Expressway is grossly over capacity which is why when traffic backs up, it backs up. The road is only two lanes in some of the densest traffic in the area.
I'm convinced that Philadelphia will soon experience the same
problem. Our world famous Schuylkill/"Surekill" Expressway is grossly over capacity which is why when traffic backs up, it
backs up. The road is only two lanes in some of the densest traffic in the area.
Speaking of which, any word on the standoff between the various players in the Schuylkill Valley Metro wrangling? My own personal opinion is that there should be a subway line serving the corridor at least as far as Conshohocken (maybe separate branches to Norristown and King of Prussia) and hitting the art museum and the zoo along the way. Commuter rail could then serve points beyond all the way to Reading.
But that might just make too much sense to survive the bureaucratic process.
Mark
SEPTA claims that the commissioners are all on board, and that the counties will now go along with it. The EIS process is supposed to begin soon. We'll see.
Which plan did they ever decide on? Still going with "Metrorail"? I remember the City wasn't too keen on that plan.
Mark
IIRC, the Metrorail idea was the one agreed upon. There is supposed to be a spur that runs to King of Prussia.
I will try to find the URL for the site.
Yes. The idea is to convert the R6 Norristown-Center-City-Ivy Ridge line to subway-like operations with a loop and line extending to Wyommising; a spur would head south from Port Kennedy (what the hell is that?) to King of Prussia Mall. SEPTA claims all commissioners are on board. One of the problems with the plan may be suburban county plans to widen route 422 (do I have the route number right?) and introduce surburban sprawl to new areas. Of course without that the suburban commissioners could veto the Metro.
Port Kennedy was a little-used station between Valley Forge and Norristown.
You mean there was passenger service to Valley Forge at one time?
I would use something like that during the summer, if available.
Yes, toward the end of service, Valley Forge service was reduced to one Reading-Philly train stopping there in each direction, inbound AM and outbound PM. I was told at the time that this was to accommodate the caretaker of Washington's Headquarters.
No decision has been made yet, but the entire flap over the NS upgrade (at the tune of $700 M minimum) could throw the project out of any hope of implementation. Given the crowds I see every morning on the 124 and 125 buses at Wissahickon Loop, some extension of either the R6 Norristown or 100 lines directly into the King of Prussia area is needed. Whether rail actually needs to return west of there, through the 422 corridor, is up to speculation. I think the 'car habit' is well ingrained here and it would be difficult to lure many folks out of their autos onto rail. The reverse commute from Phila, on the other hand, is only growing, and remains a market that should be exploited.
Whether SEPTA can acutally find the $2 B or so to build SVM, not counting the NS buyoff, remains to be seen. The City is already prepared to recommend pursuit of a rapid-transit-only solution on Roosevelt Blvd (at $2 B itself), ignoring the reality of traffic and pedestrian problems on the Blvd and missing an opportunity to solve many difficulties on this corridor. How many $2 B projects can the Phila region expect to get, given current political realities and other needs? Personally, and my city bias kicks in here, I'd rather see a Blvd corridor improvement for the $2 B expenditure, since the ridership potential both ways here is strong and the demand is high. I'm not sure many NE Phila residents are ready for a rapid transit service since they may perceive it as another way to bring the city problems they've fled closer to them. This should be very interesting.
I agree with your observations about project size. Philly will get one $2 billion project, if it gets any at all; FTA and Harrisburg may cut it to $1 billion, but still enough to get something done. The question is, will it actually get the big zero?
I think we're likely to get $1 B which won't help at all since it won't build a complete project.
I'm like you in that I'd rather see the Roosevelt Bouldvard project go through, just because I could walk to such a subway from my house. (I might be the only NE Philadelphia resident who supports it!) But you sounded critical of the current Boulevard plans. Could you pleas elaborate? I'd love to hear another angle on this project.
Mark
The study looked at 6 options. The best 2 were (a) rapid transit only and (b) rapid transit and depressed center lanes. If one is going to build a rapid line, what better place than in a depressed cut alongside roadway lanes? If one is going to spend billions to do this, why not spread the benefit and make it salable to both transit and auto interests?
Additionally, the Blvd is Phila's biggest ped accident roadway, since people have to cross 12 lanes. If one can depress the center lanes and have folks only cross 6 (3 at a time), won't this improve the ped environment?
Unfortunately the study has a transit bias and that's why highway was left out. I'm not necessarily pro-highway or anti-transit but I see the benefits for many modes. The Blvd is an anachronism - it carries expressway volumes as a surface street. It's not unusual to turn on the local news and see a catastrophic accident on the Blvd almost every week. Maybe those problems need to be addressed.
Also, what happens if you build transit only? You attract people to use it. Many of these people will have to cross the Blvd in some way, shape or form on foot since the transit line will be somewhere where someone will have to cross to get to it (whether it's in the median or biased to one side of the roadway). If there are already many ped accidents, and you add more peds, with no other changes, won't the result be more ped accidents?
If it's a cut-and-cover subway, there will be disruption during construction. It would make more sense to disrupt and then leave an improved facility rather than put back something that already doesn't work (i.e. 12 lanes).
The study looked at express buses and light rail, both of which stopped in the median. Why force people to cross 6 lanes to get to transit, when they can get it at curbside today? One can argue that the patron must cross 12 lanes either at the start or end of his/her trip, so crossing 6 lanes isn't so bad. This logic is hard to follow.
It will be tough enough to get political and funding support for this project. Other areas have shown that the way to get something done is to make it as appealing to all users as possible. The transit-only option grabs the transit folks but will be opposed by just about everyone else.
The problem with the big dig was that a number of surface highways got NIMBYed back in the late 60's. The original Road plan was a good and involved transit line along with many of the highways. There were some problems like what it would have done to the Charles River near BU. If the original plan were implemented we wouldn't have al the "Big Dig" mess now. Another problem was that politicians thought that they could make up for the lack of highway by building more transit lines it didn't work.
Our world famous Schuylkill/"Surekill" Expressway is grossly over capacity which is why when traffic backs up, it backs up. The road is only two lanes in some of the densest traffic in the area.
The one you need to blame is geography. there is litterally NO room to expand the road to 6 or 8 lanes. you have a railroad on one side and a sheet 50 foot cliff on the other. The only option is to double deck the road.
I've noticed this too. Forget double decking. I can't begin to tell you how many people would have problems with that. And it's sad too. There's really nothing that can be done. The only thing that is in a way keeping the whole thing from becoming a problem of apocalyptic proportions is the fact that since businesses are moving pretty much out past the most bottlenecked sections of the Expwy and nothing is coming into the city, it won't get any worse. It sounds like I think this is a good thing when in reality, I think quite the opposite.
...and some people wonder why I like my 30 minute or so seated ride on the N train...
life is full of hassle. there's no need to make commuting a part of it, unless you secretly enjoy S&M and abuse in general.
I love how "quality of life" is somehow magically achieved by moving three hours away from the big, evil city.
And I wonder if these are the same people who vigorously oppose any extension of MARTA because it would impede their "quality of life" by bringing all sorts of undesireables (read: people other than whites) into their neighborhoods.
God knows how Wilmette on Chicago's North Shore has turned into a horrible ghetto ever since Evanston "L" service started. Yep, ever since all those undesireables from the South Side started taking the "L" up to Wilmette, stealing everybody's cars and large-screen TV's and loading them all up onto the "L" for the return trip to Englewood, Wilmette just ain't been the same. :-)
-- David
Chicago, IL
The people mentioned in that article are complete dumbasses. I don't feel sorry for them one bit. GA 400, the highway mentioned, has a MARTA line running down the damn median. They have four stations they can choose from to park their car at in that area. Not only that, there is a deicated off ramp that takes commuters straight into the North Springs station. And to top it off, people living north of the MARTA line are begging for an extension into their area.
I love to hear stories of people moving out the the suburbs to "get away from it all" only to spend their whole lives commuting.
Can you tell me whether Atlanta had A central city are like Boston or New York Or whether it is more like L.A.
Pre WWII, it was more concentrated around Five Points. Most people lived within a few miles of it. If you look at a MARTA map, Inman Park/Reynoldstown was considered to be a suburb. Post WWII, Atlanta became more suburban. Altanta radiates out from the center, like Boston, but it is more spread out. I'd have to say it's more like LA now, but it has the potential to become more like Boston or NYC, especially how more development is happening intown than in the suburbs.
Speaking of Atlanta, I often have layovers there and I like to take MARTA into downtown. What are some good things that a tourist could see in a couple hours that are close to MARTA lines?
Mark
You have some great shopping downtown, and the World of Coca Cola, which is basically a marketing museum about Coke where you can try 64 flavors of soda. There are some great museums and things goiing on at the convention center from time to time.
Rob, feel free to chime in.
I wouldn't call the shopping around Five Points "great". It's more like a tourist trap. The World of Coke is good, however. Also LOTS of panhandlers around Five Points. I'd go to Lenox for shopping, go to North Ave for the Varsity, which has good onion rings (also right by my school). The King Center near the King Memorial station is a popular tourist place. Also the skyline view between King Memorial and Geogria State stations is one of the best in the city.
Very good point, Rob. Did you see at the end of the story where there was a form for people to submit their comments? I hope you used it to send your observations to ABC and Good Morning America as well as Subtalk.
Mark
Week before last I had a chance to ride the Champlain Flyer. Burlington might be the smallest city in the world with a commuter rail system. (If I'm wrong please let me know because if there's a smaller one I'd love to hear about it!) The system is as simple as it gets. There are three stations and from north to south they are Charlotte, Shelburne, and Burlington. Charlotte station is a metal awning with wooden frame. It's along a back road in the middle of nowhere. Shelburne is a similar station, but it's in the backyard of a small church. Once north of Shelburne the west side of the train gives you wonderful views of Lake Champlain and New York's Adirondack Mountains on the other side. Burlington is a little fancier, with an actual old passenger station with an indoor waiting area, benches and everything. The train I rode consisted of one EMD GP-series locomotive and two older passenger cars that had been rehabed. I got the impression that this was the entire fleet. I may be wrong about this, but I talked to the crew and their supply of engines is limited. I asked if the blue beast was the only locomotive they had, and the engineer said something like, "Yeah, unless it breaks down." Of the two cars, one had maroon seats and the other was upholstered in a deeper red. The car with deep red seats had more leg room, so try to get it if you ride. Payment was on the honor system, with a simple plastic box with a slot in the top for honest riders to put their one-dollar fare.
I took lots of pictures, and I plan to donate them to this site as soon as I can scan them in.
Mark
For anyone in the Philly area, there's a special on WHYY (PBS) tomorrow (Tuesday) night at 8 called "Secrets Beneath the Streets". They have a web site for it, too:
http://www.whyy.org/tv12/secrets/index.html
It's supposed to cover the BSS in one segment.
Thanks for the heads-up. The website also mentions the trolley stations in the Ben Franklin Bridge towers, which were open to the public on July 1 on the occaision of the bridge's 75th anniversary celebration, but the lines were too long (estimated 2 hour wait when I tried).
Allegedly there will also be some shots of the long-sealed Arch St subway segments. Channel 12 appears to have done a good job on this. Having read the promo material offered in its monthly magazine, it seems that the piece should be detailed and interesting, much like 12's other documentaries on local concerns (one of which is being rebroadcast after this program tomorrow night).
Does anyone know of all abandoned station, never-completed subways and relics of past lines in and around Philly?
Well, the Broad-Ridge Spur wasoriginally supposed to be make a complete circle around downtown.
Someone correct me if I am wrong, but, as this was never completed, the Spur was opened as just that, with part of the finished tunnel becoming the PATCO line extrension from the Ben Franklin Bridge. PATCO terminates at 16th and Locust Streets.
Yes, you are correct. There are two sections of subway beneath Arch St that never saw any trains - these were part of the planned downtown delivery loop.
Wasn't there at one time a branch of the Market-Frankford line that turned south from Market along 2nd street to South Street? I think it was abandonded back in the 1950s. Does anyone know if this spur was elevated or a subway? If a subway, are its tunnels still there?
Mark
The original Market Street line turned south from Market Street onto an elevated structure over Delaware Ave. The northbound branch to Frankford replaced it.
It actually exited the subway to the north and made the 180-degree turn into Arch St and then into Delaware Ave. The Frankford El tied into this portal when it came along later. After the Ferries branch was abandoned ('38-'39), the portal remained until I-95 construction changed everything in the early 70's.
Did trains ever run in the Arch Street subway, or was it one of those that was built and never used? From where to where on Arch Street did it run? How was it supposed to tie into the current system?
Mark
I paid a visit to the website you linked. I had no idea that an actual subway station had been built on Roosevlet Boulevard, as far back as 1967 no less! Reading that it was demolished long before the will to actually build the subway could ever be mustered was really depressing.
Mark
I'm surprised you never heard of it before. It's one of Philly's most famous "Forgotten" tidbits. I believe there is a bellmouth near Wyoming stating station for when such an extension was built.
There has been a little more talk recently about rail transit along the Boulevard, less from an extension of the BSS as from the El along Bustleton Ave and then the Blvd.
Of course, that'll never happen. This is Philly!
I've seen things sticking up out of the median around Adams Avenue that look like something is down there. I'll have to go in for a closer look.
The plan, or plans, call for a branch off the Broad Street subway at Erie that follows Roosevelt Boulevard to Southampton Road. An underground extension of the Market-Frankford line from Frankford Terminal is planned that will meet the new line at Roosevelt and Bustleton. Here's a website:
www.libertynet.org/netis
Mark
Those 'things' are probably the vents for the former pedestrian underpass between the front door of the Sears office building and the bus stop on the south side of the Blvd. I believe this underpass was sealed off when Sears was imploded and the current shopping plaza was built.
There was a station built there in anticipation of the BSS extension. This, according to a display at the Walnut-Locust station. The station was destroyed in the implosion.
The former Sears complex at the Blvd & Adams had a parking garage right about at that corner which was built in 1960 +/- and was constructed with a subway station beneath it for the coming Pennway St/Northeast Freeway extension of the Broad St Subway. It was so certain then that many Broad St cars had a 'Rhawn' destination applied to their side signs. The large undeveloped parcel on the north side of Rhawn St near Dungan Rd was to be the site of the yards for this line.
Now this is really depressing! It makes me fear having to watch the current project go through the committees and hearings and such only to end up never being built like all the past ones. Sometimes it looks like NY will have 2nd Ave before we get this!
If there are any other NE Philly residents among the Subtalkers, please fill the mailboxes of your elected officials with letters calling for it to really be built this time. I've done so for my state and federal pols, but the city council memebers addresses have been harder to find, at least on the city's website. I think the city government is behind it already, though.
Mark
I just finished the tapistry and its various threads.
Oh Boy! To Railfan Pete, the subways and this board are an urban archaeologist dream come true.
Yes many times the posters here will stray, but they do come back to the central theme.
At first you may cosider these wonderings just so much trash or garbage, but please don't jump too fast.
In archeaology the best finds are often in trash heaps. Similarly, if you're patient with us, you will find gems of wisdom concerning subways in what may appear to be off topic diversions.
Remember the subways are to connect the city. The city is made up of many neighborhoods. These neighborhoods are both static and dynamic.
You will find that some discussions reflect old equipement,old lines old neighborhoods. They'll also cover the present system and current neighborhoods. We learn and share more then just the subway here.
Your writing skills show you to be very intelligent for your years, but intelligence is not the same as wisdow.
Try patience and being sensitive to others. They really will afford you the same. You have a board full of potential mentors here. Some are cut and dry others witty and humorous, as well as the boreing, like myself. Good luck and keep seeking knowledge.
avid
Kosher deli? I'll have a Corned Beef on Rye and a Dr. Browns Cream soda
yesterday i noticed a sign at 47th-50th on 6th av, high on the wall where the tower is stating "this is now a full automated tower "what you punch is what you get"", next to the "think" sign (yet not all that noticable high on the tower wall in white w/black letters).
are there any other locations around the system with such odd signs meant for personnel notification???
THINK
SAFETY
ATTENTIVENESS
TRAIN CONTROL
where might that be? or is it on that other sign below 'think' (the one with the ball line up info)?
My favorite is at one of the GCT loop tracks, where "watch out for trains" was changed to "watch out for rain". It does indeed pour in that one little spot sometimes. Where this water comes from I wouldn't hazard to guess. God bless Grand Central.
That spot is hobo riffic. We did some photos from that spot, and it says (scrawled on the wall in marker) "You are being watched on video". I think we added to that (in chalk) "...by midget hermaphrodites wearing nothing but thongs", or something along them lines.
been mucking around with the camera there and @ penn - getting very sureal results. good stuff.
I know of one posted outside of Gladstone storage yard right off of Gladstone train station.
It doesn't mention anything "fun" (or as you call it), but it has:
NJ TRANSIT logo on top
SAFETY This Rail yard has worked ___ days
PAYS WITHOUT A LOST TIME INJURY
Sorry. I don't recall the HTML associated with "spaces".
That's it for now.
Railfan Pete.
huh. do they fill in the days every day, or just leave it blank? the latter would be kinda creepy.
Reminds me of a wrong lineup I took once out of there "after hours" where some wiseass punched for the B as I was leaving northbound. Since cabs didn't have rear-view mirrors, I never saw it. Ended up going onto the local track at 59th. Assumed that there was a problem, so took it. Got yelled at. Got put onto the correct track leaving.
Ummm ... sure hope these blind punchboxes have lockouts once the train moves or there could be interesting times ahead.
Heh heh! you mean if someone punched for say, uptown D, left the station, but someone else hit the local button before the next train arrived? that could be a problem if it's possible to do that (is it?). some graffiti cats i knew (actually a lot of them) were fond of hitting punch boxes for no reason at all.
It happened several times back in the 70's ... as the radios got better, the tower would ASK the train before providing a lineup. On the particular route, you'd be either a B or a D and from that 59th would determine which side of the platform to send you into when you came up the hill. At the north end was a switch, so in this case, was no big deal other than "why did you TAKE the lineup?" Back then, if you came up the hill and saw an R10 sitting on the express track and you were given a lineup for the local track, wasn't all that unusual. You'd go ahead of the A of course.
From what I heard though, this had become so much of a problem that they'd call you on the radio anyway at 7th Ave just to be sure. There was also a punch there also to confirm if I remember, and if they couldn't get you on the radio, they'd drop the ball until you punched. On the other side, the box was on the wall so it wasn't as likely to happen to the F/KK ...
Hey, Kev, remember that signal at the north end of 7th Ave. with the sign "If this signal is red, STOP! Call 59th St. tower."? I was on a D train once which encountered a red signal. The motorman called the tower and a few minutes later we proceeded slowly around the curve and up the hill. There was another D train at 59th St., with an A train right behind it and next to us in the tunnel. After that D train left, the A train was sent along. Finally we got our lineup and were sent into 59th on the express track. I got off the train at that point because I had to get to Port Authority, but before I did I glanced ahead into the tunnel and saw the scissor switch north of the station set for diverging. The D train I had been on was switched over to the local track. Must have been a delay up ahead.
I too noticed an unusual sign while waiting for the B train the other evening.
Something about a kitty gone missing on the tracks- poor thing! I think there was a reward ...
Oh yeah - that solidified kitty with the "attention all trackworkers" note on the service change flyer. who'd do something like that? People are sick, sick sick sick.
In the even that a T/O happened to snooze off
watching the YAWNkees.. there's a 'LIGHTS ON'
sign at the tip of the sb (4) platform at 161st..
Does any body have any idea what became of this study? I havent heard anything of it in quite a while
It was supposed to be in its final stages, if not called off altogether. Last time I checked they study narrowed the choices down to:
1. LRVa in the LES,
2. The 2Av line, or
3. Busways.
I meant to say LRVs for #1.
1. How did the word "traction" come to mean "electric streetcars and interurbans"? I thought traction was whenever friction is used deliberately to produce locomotion, and thus could be applied to all railways as well as automobiles (and shoes).
2. Why are the HBLR and Newark City Subway incompatible? What is it about the tracks/wheels/trucks makes the trains unable to run on each others' tracks? That really puts a damper on my pipe dream of extending the HBLR across the bay to Newark Penn.
1) I'm not sure. Historically, the field of using electricity
to propel rail vehicles was known as Electric Traction. It
applies to mainline railroad electrifications as well as street
railways and interurbans. The shortening to "traction" may be slang
2) Although it is essentialy private ROW, the Newark City Subway
is a street railway line. The wheel profiles of the PCC cars
follow the street railway standards, meaning narrower treads and,
more importantly, flanges that are thinner and shallower than
the standard AAR mainline railroad wheel. The reasons for this
difference in standards are multifold and include the tendency
for sharper curves in street railways and the need to minimize the
gap in the paving for the flange. The result doesn't matter much
on straight track, but in guarded curves and at frogs, the distance
between the back face of one wheel and the gauge point of the
opposite wheel is critical. It is very difficult to mix the two
different wheel profiles on the same piece of track. The track either
has to be designed for one or the other. So, NCS track is all set
to street ry. specs, and the new LRVs have the same profile as the
PCCs. HBLR was built to railroad specs, perhaps because of future
plans to extend the system and share track with freight trains.
don't think there will be freight due fra reg's
"don't think there will be freight due fra reg's"
I'm pretty sure that the CFR was changed about 2 years ago. Freight trains can use RT trackage as long as RT equipment is not using it at the same time.
I'm looking to expand on my collection of online rollsigns.
Here's what I'm looking to do:
R40/42 GOH Side Sign Set
Redbird End Sign Set
R68 Side & End Sign Sets (old signs)
R16-38 End Sign Set (R32/38 pre-GOH)
R62 Side Sign Set
Please, if possible, keep the lists to the most recent set unless otherwise noted.
Any info on rollsigns from other systems (Boston, PATH, etc.) are welcome. For example, I have lists of rollsigns from the London Underground that someone e-mailed to me after seeing my page.
Also, any older sets are also welcome.
Thanks in advance. My rollsign gallery page is located at:
http://rmmarrero.topcities.com/museum/rollsign/index.html
for those who want to see my current collection.
I'm looking to expand on my collection of online rollsigns.
Here's what I'm looking to do:
R40/42 GOH Side Sign Set
Redbird End Sign Set
R68 Side & End Sign Sets (old signs)
R16-38 End Sign Set (R32/38 pre-GOH)
R62 Side Sign Set
Please, if possible, keep the lists to the most recent set unless otherwise noted.
Any info on rollsigns from other systems (Boston, PATH, etc.) are welcome. For example, I have lists of rollsigns from the London Underground that someone e-mailed to me after seeing my page.
Also, any older sets are also welcome.
Thanks in advance. My rollsign gallery page is located at:
http://rmmarrero.topcities.com/museum/rollsign/index.html
for those who want to see my current collection.
Also, if you have a picture (JPEG) I can use for equipment from non-NYCT systems that I can use, tell me.
Here's the Redbird end destination sign:
242 St
Bway
South
Ferry
137 St
Bway
Dyckman
Street
E 238
Street
E 241
Street
New Lots
Avenue
135 St
Lenox Av
148 St
Lenox Term (Narrow Helvetica)
Flatbush
Avenue
Woodlwn
Jerome
Atlantic
Avenue
Utica
Avenue
Dyre
Avenue
E 180
Street
Pelham
Bay Park
Brooklyn
Bridge
E 177 St
Parkchestr (Narrow Helvetica)
125 St
Lex Av
59 St
Lex Av
Bowling
Green
34 St
Penn Sta
Chambrs
Street
96 St
Bway
138 St
3 Av
149 St
Concourse (Narrow Helvetica)
Main St
Flushing
Willets Pt
Shea Stdm (Narrow Helvetica)
111 St
Corona
Times
Square
Grand
Central
Special
Not in
Service (Centered)
At the end, upside down, is printed;
N.Y.C.T.A. NO. 14-81-7349
END DESTINATION SIGN CURTAIN, DETAIL NO. 1
CONTRACTS R-17,21,22,26,28,29,33,36
TRANS-LITE INC., PART NO. C-1047
N.Y.C.T.A. P.O. NO. R-31463-1
So where does one buy old Redbird, or for that matter NYCTA subway car rollsigns?
Should have gone to Hoboken ("Try Transit") Festival. Or the "D-Types" trip last month. There were vendors at each selling signs. Shore Line Trolley Museum has a little sign store too. And of course there's always Ebay.
Try Ebay. Use search subway -(poster) or also try from the main ebay page: click on Collectibles, Transportation, Subway.
It is best that you do both since not all subway items are listed in the Collectibles section.
(Am I nuts???? Giving clues to potential competion for items??)
Time will tell.
That is already in the gallery, I think he wants the signs found on the END of the train, ie the front and back, not the side.
That one IS the end sign. The signs I have in the gallery are the SIDE signs.
SUBTALK LIVE THIS SATURDAY
September 15, 2001
7:30 PM ETBusTalkers are welcome, too!SubTalk live is your chance to hold LIVE chats with other railfans and busfans. All are welcome and encouraged to join us for a fun evening!
As in any Internet forum or chatroom, certain polices and rules need to be created and enforced. SubTalk Live is no exception. The following policies are in effect at all times in the chatroom or when making posts on SubTalk and BusTalk pertaining to the chat:
1. ANY public transit related topic can be discussed (bus, subway, or railroad).
2. It is requested that you use your handle as your chat nickname.
3. OPs will be the sole people in the chat to deem a topic off subject and are the only people who can make announcements on SubTalk and BusTalk pertaining to the opening, closing, delay, cancellation, postponement, software, server, or technical difficulties with the chat. When in doubt over what you are about to do, don't do it! If you have a problem with any of the above issues, e-mail an operator. Please do not post on SubTalk or BusTalk! This also applies to responding to this message. Do not respond to this message unless you are posting a question relevant to SubTalk Live. Do not post announcements pertaining to the chat.
4. Anyone who disrupts the chat in any way (scrolling, profanity, obscene remarks, constant chatting off-topic, or any of the above) will be punted and/or banned from SubTalk Live with or without warning.ARE YOU READY TO SUBTALK LIVE???
Just go to http://www.subtalklive.com and join in! If you use mIRC, do your thing!NOTE
It is strongly reccomended you enter the room and troubleshoot BEFORE Saturday night! If you encounter problems, e-mail an operator, do not post on SubTalk/BusTalk!WE LOOK FORWARD TO SEEING YOU!
PLEASE DO NOT RESPOND TO THIS POST
For an explanation of this request, see the chat policies.
Hi does anyone know what the TA will do with the test track just slightly south of the first trestle crossing Jamaica Bay heading south towards Broad Channel and the Rockaways? Seems they have used this new test track not long ago to test new subway cars , but will they keep it?, or use it to store trains for AM or PM rush after testing is completed?
That's probably Hammels Wye. That track is used during G.O.'s but otherwise is not an in-service track.
Thats not a test track, its a storage track for Rockaway Park Shuttle Trains. (See Peters Book Or Track Maps On nycsubway.org).
Occasionally the LIRR track between Woodside and Jamaica has been used for testing...
For a number of years in the late 1940's and early 1950's the NYSME had a huge model railroad layout in the upper concourse of the Hoboken Terminal of the old D L & W. The layout was outside third rail O gauge. There was also a much smaller HO gauge layout.
Does anyone know what ever became of the displays?
I never knew Grand Central Terminal was such a labyrinth. I saw the loops tracks on both levels, which I had never taken the time to notice. I saw a train moving through the loop, and noticed also that the upper level tracks looked like they had fresh concrete.
The lower level loops are looking pretty disused (with barricades, some rails out and a couple tracks completely built over) but I couldn't see the far tracks too well. I found my way to the very distant and isolated loop Track 200 which looked like it could still be operational from where I saw it (and does not have a platform). Track 200 is what it was called in the drawings I have from a 1975 Harry Weese plan for northern pedestrian access to GCT. So close to the Lexington Avenue line, but so very empty...
The 1975 report has a track utilization chart for the upper level. When viewed in that form, the terminal doesn't look so busy. Have things changed, and was the loop ever useful for commuter-type services?
Lets talk Woodhaven Junction. Was there ever an escalator or steps to connect to the Rockaway Beach Line of the LIRR? By the way any pics of the underground station (WOODHAVEN JUNCTION) out there?
There were steps, no escalator. Check out Joe Brennan's Abandoned & Disused Stations and Kevin Walsh's Forgotten NY.
Can the police fine anyone for entering the abandoned Rockaway Line?
Or is it safe to explore these tracks, without fear of police interference?
One hundred years from now, assuming that an H-bomb or an earthquake (it is possible you know) doesn't wipe the place out I wonder what the transit system in New York will look like. I doubt not that the underground portion of the subway system will be intact. Most of the Els, but possibly not all of them, will be gone as well as some of the East River bridges. I'm pretty sure that the Empire State and Chrysler Buildings as well as the World Trade Center will still be around though I suspect that the rest of the skyline will be up for grabs. There will still be a Pennsylvania and Grand Central Station with the LIRR going to the latter. None of us will be around to see it but I doubt not that it will be interesting.
Eric Dale Smith
None of us will be around to see it
Don't be so sure.
None of us will be around to see it
Don't be so sure.
I'm only 16 and biotechnology is advancing frightningly fast...
Dan
Prognostication has always been a difficult thing to do, more so as one goes further into the future.
I'm sure that 100 years ago, some people thought that all of those companies (the Jersey Central, PRR, Erie, DL&W, NYC, B&O) would still be around.
They were wrong, DEAD WRONG.
Why do you believe that Grand Central and Penn Station will still be around? Similarly, why would the els be gone? Would people still be using rail-based transport? Or will teleportation be widespread enough?
[Or will teleportation be widespread enough? ]
Or perhaps there will be no need for a daily commute for most people.
Arti
Unless you have a crystal ball, do not assume anything. We may very well all be around to see many, if not all of NYC's present infastructures in 2100 A.D. provided that, in this century, proper care and upkeep will be performed.
The average life expectancy today is around 75 years. One hundred years from now most of us would be in our 120s and up so it is a bit of a stretch to assume that our life expectancy will nearly double in the next fifty years or so to make seeing 2101 possible. I'm not saying that it can't happen, it just seems unlikely that it will for now.
Eric D. Smith
The average life expectancy 50 or 75 years ago was only in the 40s or 50s, so even though we'll all be older, the life expectancy will also be higher (assuming the trend increases).
The average life expectancy today is around 75 years. One hundred years from now most of us would be in our 120s and up so it is a bit of a stretch to assume that our life expectancy will nearly double in the next fifty years or so to make seeing 2101 possible. I'm not saying that it can't happen, it just seems unlikely that it will for now.
Most of the life expectancy gains up to this point have involved a reduction of the death rate during early childhood and also middle age. In other words, fewer babies die today than in past decades, and by the same token people who make it into their fifties or so are more likely to survive to be senior citizens. What has not changed that much is the outer limit of life. There seems to be a maximum human lifespan of about 110, with very few people making it past 100 or so.
Unlikely? Things that you would never THINK as to be unlikely are becoming a fact. Today's events prove exactly that.
One hundred years from now, assuming that an H-bomb or an earthquake (it is possible you know) doesn't wipe the place out I wonder what the transit system in New York will look like.
The Second Avenue line will be "opening soon."
The Second Avenue line will be "opening soon."
And the Manny Bridge North Side Rehab will be "almost done." (=
Dan
The Second Avenue line will be "opening soon."
Possible headlines for
THE NEW YORK TIMES
Friday, January 1, 2100:
WELCOME TO THE 22nd CENTURY
First 100 year century in 199 years begins today.
NORTHEAST TRANSPORTATION AUTHORITY BEGINS SECOND AVENUE SUBWAY STUDY
Construction is expected to begin after approval of 6th bond act for this purpose. Study includes plans for Midtown access from underwater city.
NO NEWS FROM PIG WAR FRONT
Human victories extensive
"First 100 year century in 199 years begins today. "
I don't get the joke. :(
Maybe the land mass between the East River and Hudson River will be a penal colony for the dregs of society including Earnest Borgnine.
"Speak for yourself. I plan to live forever."
-Cmdr. William Riker
Ok, my guesses:
Technology:
Still steel wheel on rail, heck, you could even (concieveably) run a lowV on it.
Third rail voltage "bumped" up to maybe as high as 1kv. Still DC.
Cars would use (by this time) inexpensive, single piece, unibody, carbon fiber bodies, riding on aluminum alloy trucks, possibly even axles and wheels. suspension would be combination airbag and active computer controlled dampers, making a ride so smooth you can balance coins on handrails.
Trucks would be radial. Motors would be 3 phase induction AC types with built in inverters and regenerative braking to 0mph. Hydrualic actuated disc brakes would be used as a backup and for emergency braking. Traction circuitry would be confined to the truck, with only a lead for feeding the static inverter and battery pack under the car, and a feed for braking resistances. All truck / train communications would be via a single 6 lead cable. Failed traction gear would be replaced in shop as a whole truck/motor unit, though reliability would be so great that such a procedure would be rare.
Control would be semiautomated, possibly OPTO. Inteligent doors and an automated control system would assist the T/O in normal and emergency operations, and communicate with token booths (now expanded more into service centers at stations where they still exist) to help predict passenger loads, and route fire/police personel in an emergency. Cars could sense the passenger loads, and automated voices in stations would guide passengers to empty cars.
Signalling would be a form of CBTC, with no trip arms. Trains would run in semi auto mode, with the T/O making acelerate/decellerate/speed decisions, while the computer monitors for safety and timetable performance. An earpiece (assigned to each T/O - coul you imagine sharing them? Ewwwww) plugs in to the console to give access to the controls, and communications. It monitors the T/O's pulse and temperature to serve as a deadman. If the T/O is incapacitated, the train automatically notifies the command center, the signal system clears a priority path to the next available station, and stops there.
Fare access would be via a small wand type farepass. This could be purchased or refilled virtually anywhere, and would also provide fares for commuter and high speed lines in the area
Maintenance work would still be hands on, but small, automated, "rover" type rail cars would work the system at night, looking for defects, and possibly even making small repairs. A larger automated car (controlled by an operator), would stop at stations, unload a cleaning machine that would clean the floors, and come back at a later time to pick it up.
Here's the scary part. Just about everything I've listed here is either technically feasable now, or will be in 10 years.
Nice view from a technological standpoint. I'd expect to see the trucks go even more "complete" with a fiber optic input and a chopper signal for dynamic braking with a shunt bar on the truck to feed the chopped regen current into. Only "glass" from input data collectors and output control communications would be required from the trucks to the rest of the system plus a "HEP" line from one truck to the car lighting and control electronics.
I definitely don't see teleportation though. While it will have been invented by that date, its rollout would be delayed by litigation between MicrosoftPowerCableGasophone and AOL/TimeWarnerExxon over who would pay for the wires. CBTC and ATO would have been a fad of the past, disproven because the use of Windows 2042, service back D3 would have brought the meaning of the term "computer crash" home to too many lawyers. And Sister Cleo's Psychic GO hotline will have been replaced by a gas grill.
just one problem....monitoring pulse and temperature can't indicate (as far as I know) whether a person is conscious, and also just as important, alert and sober. People who are unconscious (but not dead) still have pulses, and if a T/O is dead, the train has probably just stopped (after crashing into another one) anyway.
Cars would use (by this time) inexpensive, single piece, unibody, carbon fiber bodies, riding on aluminum alloy trucks, possibly even axles and wheels.
Until the first crash that kills hundreds. Federal rugulations bring back stainless steel.
and active computer controlled dampers, making a ride so smooth you can balance coins on handrails.
Too many people fall asleep and miss their stop. Noisy cars demanded by riders and railfans.
Trucks would be radial.
Doubt it. Radial technology is not needed on B-B trucks.
Cars could sense the passenger loads, and automated voices in stations would guide passengers to empty cars.
Until vandalized or confused my illogical human patterns.
Fare access would be via a small wand type farepass. This could be purchased or refilled virtually anywhere, and would also provide fares for commuter and high speed lines in the area
With the govermnent or MicroSoft tracking your every move.
I believe Wand type fare payment systems are used on Hong Kong's buses and will eventually be used in the MTR.
The really scary part is that while that stuff may be technically feasable now, it would take the TA 100 years to implement it.
Yeah, well, I'm just waiting for my nuclear powered vacuum cleaner and "energy too cheap to measure." And where's my personal helicopter, dammit!
Seth
But at least we have robot pets now! And they're even allowed on the subway.
Mark
>I'm pretty sure that...the World Trade Center will still be around
How eerie...who would think that 12 hours after this original post it would't be around!
I'M SICK!!!!!!!!!!!
Eric Dale Smith
>>I'm pretty sure that the Empire State and Chrysler Buildings as well as the World Trade Center will still be around though I suspect that the rest of the skyline will be up for grabs. <<
Anyone wanna take bets on how long the Empire State and Chrysler will last?
"I'm pretty sure that the Empire State and Chrysler Buildings as well as the World Trade Center will still be around though I suspect that the rest of the skyline will be up for grabs."
Anyone wanna take bets on how long the Empire State and Chrysler will last? (that comment had been written on 9/11/2001 and after the attacks.)
Well, how many of you had grandparents who predicted erronously that the original Penn Station would be standing for a century?
Well, how many of you had grandparents who predicted erronously that the original Penn Station would be standing for a century?
How many people really cared?
Do you go around looking at new buildings and thinking "man, that thing is going to be around for a century?"
Since the Chrystler building is considered of less significance than the Empire State building I predict the Empire State building will have a another good hundred years.
And If the same thing happens to the Empire State building as what did the Twin towers befor that time(God Forbidd) then I didn't say anything.
I wish you didn't say that.
If that jinx applies, then maybe I oughta say the same of ugly 1 Liberty Plaza, which replaced the pristine Singer Tower several decades ago. Singer was the tallest building to be demolished until Crazy Arab SOB and his crazy Arab pals came along.
Anyone wanna take bets on how long the Empire State and Chrysler will last?
The Pyramids are still standing - they just don't build them like they used to ;-)
I agree
I had not seen the original post till now going through all of your posts.
But that would have shaken me up too.
Lets hope that nothing else is destroyed ever again.
Period
How eerie...who would think that 12 hours after this original post it would't be around!
Okay, a new version of the World Trade Center. (See, this is the kind of retrospective that can only be gained by letting a thread age gracefully - note the date of first post.)
Thanks, Elias
Well, this time, it's cuz it's Lent/ Easter season. ;)
I doubt even EDS would go to those lengths.
How do we know that Windsor Terrace Economist isn't EDS?
Remember his racist spin on almost everything he posted? He joined the Baltimore Streetcar Museum, but quit a year later stating that he he was unliked because he was black.
Last time I heard, he was still living in Baltimore, but nobody has seen or heard from him.
Our policy at BSM is we don't care what color you happen to have, if you want to join us and be an active member, that's fine.
Our Superintendant of Transportation had to sit on Eric, firstly because he was injection too much "black" into the on-car talk, plus he had three accidents in the year he was in Transportation, one not chargeable and two that were charged.
He was never qualifed as an Operator, and when he applied for one man training, the Chief Instructor denied it. Eric quit the Museum, claiming the only reason was because he is black.
We learned later that he had been teaching at Morgan State University, but had been discharged due to his attitude.
He's a nice guy with a strange view of the world and life in general.
As so often is the case. The human mind is an amasing construction: but once an idea or attitude like that is implanted it is almost impossible to dislodge it. And a paranoia can be the deepest of issues.
Little Black men in black helicopters coming after him because he is black! Whose issue is it?
A mind with a twist in it can be such a loss.
Elias
You rock. :)
His writing style is very odd...totally in longhand, rambling and hard to read. When I was the editor of the BDM's newletter, the Live Wire, he gave me a article on his "crossing the bridge", his view of being the first African-American to become qualified at BSM. It was all longhand, rambling and somewhat racial in tone. It never got in, and when I resigned after 18 years as Editor, it won't. Since he quit, the operating staff went back to 100 Caucasian. Not our fault.
If Richard had posted a new thread with this subject, no one would complain.
People need to stop putting words in my mouth, and making assumptions about stuff I said.
And if you have frequent problems with people drawing incorrect conclusions from your statements, then you should reconsider how you phrase them.
Sic transit gloria mundi. (Thus passes the glory of this world.)
Yes, I know about our fellow SubTalker, Sick Transit Gloria Monday.
The timing on this one is just too damn eerie...
This car as well as four others are sitting in the barn at 180th. Will those cars get assigned to the 5 line?
I think those are the last five cars that will be assigned to the 2 line, 6696-6700. I think the 5 line's R142's will start at 6701.
Some 6700 series cars may be assigned to the 2 until the 6361-6475, 6481-6500 group finally enters service.
-Stef
That's right on the button.
Numerical assignments will be smoothed out eventually. Internal signage for each assignment can be changed at will by the shops.
Regards,
George Chiasson Jr.
(Widecab5@aol.com)
What did I miss? These must have gotten delivered on Friday. I saw a diesel-rider-diesel set rolling southbound. I figured I must have missed something. I wonder if 6686-90 arrived?
-Stef
Sunday night caught #'s 6101-6107 and a couple of others. 10 in all I think, southbound through here. Probably rolling up the IRT tonight somewhere ...
The municipal pool where I live in Hastings-on-Hudson closed for the 2001 season at the end of the day on Sunday September 9th 2001. As I gave my short speech announcing that the pool was closed for the season I did mention that everyone should say good-bye to the IRT "Redbirds" since by the times the pool opens for the 2002 season on Saturday May 25th provided that everything goes according as planned most if not all of the IRT "Redbirds" will be gone. It added a nostalgic feeling in the air as the pool closed for the season since another link with my youth and many, many other peoples youths will very soon be gone forever.
Over the Laobr Day weekend I was speaking to someone else who I believe is about 7 or 8 years older than me and he remembered seeeing RED subway cars on the IRT Pelham Line when he lived in the Bronx as a child. I believe he must have seen the R-29s when they were brand new or perhaps some repainted R-17s. He got a feeling of nostalgia when I told him that all of the IRT "Redbirds" will probably be gone by the time Memorial Day rolls around.
To mark the passing of the "Redbirds" I wore a red swim cap while I a swimming at my municipal pool for the last days of the season.
I will now say "Farewell" to the IRT "Redbirds".
#3 West End Jeff
As I was typing another response word has come in that a plane has crashed into one of the WTC towers. I work a few blocks to the east but did not hear anything.
See CNN.com for picture
Word is TWO planes now and BOTH towers are burning ... apparently NYC TV is off the air, it IS still lit on the satellites. Wow.
9:43 EST
One of the truly sickening days in my life.
my GOD
A 2nd plane DID crash into the World Trade Center at 9:08 A.M. The NYSE has been evacuated.
#3 West End Jeff
I can see it easily from my 6th floor window on the LIC waterfront opposite the UN. There are huge plumes of smoke coming out of both towers. One appears to be covered in smoke from about the 70th floor on up. Traffic appears to be moving normally on the FDR Drive at least as far south as Waterside Plaza. Can't get into CNN, MSN or 1010WINS websites at this time.
It's truly horrifying. TV showed the second plane cruising by the second tower and smashing into it. Has to be deliberate. Awful, awful, awful. My prayers to all the innocent people.
Mine, too. This is just horrible, unthinkable.
From now on we are like Israel. We are all soldiers. Hell, these human rats don't care who they target. We are all open to attack. I don't believe pilots are going to open their cockpits to save passengers. We will have to take our chances because we have to choose to save 250 people or maybe as many as 20,000 people. I tremble to think how many innocent Americans have had their live snuffed out. I'm literally shaking now and there are tears in my eyes. I'm just furious at what's happened in my country.
Fred how about using Our country not my country. We are all Americans here, not just you
And my prayers also. All the way.
-F.
Howard, you seem to be our best source as all the news sites are clogged. Can you keep us up to date under this thread?
Speculation on TV about the planes being hijacked.
One was said to be a 767 hijacked from Boston. News just stated that FAA has grounded ALL aircraft nationwide. Pentagon in DC is on fire.
wayne
Top of one of the towers just collapsed.
Arti
B"H
just the top? or the whole tower...on 1010 they're makin it out to be the whole tower.
Difficcult to see as there's smoke covering the whole Lower Manhattan.
NY1 speculates that the whole tower, what could have happened to the subways below?
Arti
I expect they'll be out for around a week or so. WHen I get a hold of NYCT info I will post. Please stand by
The subways must be a mess. Is this a nightmere? Please pinch me.
I am very scared, even though I live on Long Island.
NY1 said that the service is suspended, also lots of bridges and tunnels are closed.
Arti
Also other buildings in DC.
Not lots of the bridges and tunnels. ALL OF THEM! I'm currently stucj at school rights now, trying to figure out if I should swim across the Harlem River to get into the Bronx.
Bridges are open now - out of Manhattan only, There's limited Subway service, L, 7, A and F.
Arti
The subways were shut down by late this morning at around 10:00 A.M. to my best guess. I'm in the Larchmont Public Library at the moment and a shopkeeper in a nearby store had an old Black & White TV set turned on and they told me that the casaulties will probably run into the thousands with the complete collapse of the two towers of the World Trade Center.
The scene looking at it on the TV screen was surrealistic.
As you might have found out Qtraindash7 I was born with a minor cleft palate and it is bothering me a little at the moment.
#3 West End Jeff
NY1 has live coverage.
For about half an hour I have heard emergency vechicle sirens.
Arti
I just found out now that one of the planes was not one of your small single engine Cessnas -
it was an AMERICAN AIRLINES 757 out of Boston.
Yikes. They don't know what the other one is, though.
One question I hope to have answered is how the hell did those human vermin that perpetrated this tragedy got weapons on the plane. Was there an inside job of some kind, or is our security so pathetic that it is possible to sneak guns on a plane. We are all in shock out here.
All you need to do is search media indeces of the last ten years for a list of stories about how porous airport security is.
AND, it was not just 1 plane.
FOUR airplanes (I heard it may be as many as EIGHT (8) domestic airplane flights were hijacked today, all around the same time!
Some sources I read mentioned even 11.
Arti
Apparently there were four planes, two from Newark Internation and two from Logan in Boston. There's no question there was inside help on this, and I would hope all the worker lists and passenger mainfest lists for those flights are being checked right now for any possible connections. Those on the ground are as culpable as the ones in the planes and deserve the same fate as Timothy McVeigh.
Since all airline, Amtrak and Greyhound bus service across the U.S. has been suspended, any attempt to leave the country will have to be by car for now, either across the Canadian or Mexican borders or by boat, unless the people involved were already gone by the time the crashes occurred.
According to news reports, the Mexican and Canadian border crossings have all been closed.
-- David
Chicago, IL
Or hiding on Atlantic Ave in Brooklyn
Aside from the arrests in Boston, the Amtrak stop in Providence and the possible arrests in Florida, the FBI right now has an APB out to all law enforcement officials to be on the look out for three different vehicles that may be driven by people connected to the bombing, two vehicles with Florida license plates and one with Arkansas license plates driven by a woman with a Middle-Eastern sounding name, though she is described in the bulletin as a white female.
News outlets confirmed that 4 planes were hijacked in the US this morning and later crashed.
The two planes which destroyed the Twin Towers originated out of Boston's Logan Airport and were headed to Los Angeles - American Airlines Flight 11 and United Airlines Flight 175.
American Airlines Flight 77 from Washington Dulles to Los Angeles was the plane that crashed into the Pentagon. The wife of US Soliciter General Ted Olson was among those killed in that crash.
United Airlines Flight 93 from Newark to San Francisco crashed in Somerset County, Pennsylvania. I had heard news reports that the hijackers were intending to crash the plane at Camp David in Maryland.
My condolences go out to all the victims of the tragedies in New York, the Pentagon, and Somerset County.
The most disturbing part of this brainless tragedy is the fact that the planes deviated significantly from their routes. The planes that caused the tragedy in NYC were headed for LA and made abrupt changes in their course. Obviously, something was wrong. Why didn't we do anything.
Sept. 11.... The day Pearl Harbor came to the mainland US...
The most disturbing part of this brainless tragedy is the fact that the planes deviated significantly from their routes. The planes that caused the tragedy in NYC were headed for LA and made abrupt changes in their course. Obviously, something was wrong. Why didn't we do anything.
Little if anything could have been done. All that anyone knew was that the planes had been hijacked and were deviating off their planned routes. That's what you'd expect with a hijacking.
It's hard to say anything could have been done with the NYC attacks -- the fact is there is no Air Force or Naval Air Station close enough to the city that could have scrambled a jet fast enough to shoot down the 757. But questions will be raised about the Pentagon attack, since that came a full 30 minutes after WTC 1 was hit, plenty of time for the military to figure out this wasn't an accidental crash and to realize that if New York was hit, Washington might be next.
"FOUR airplanes (I heard it may be as many as EIGHT (8) domestic airplane flights were hijacked today, all around the same time"
Have all hijacked planes been accounted for ? I hate to think that a couple are out there ready top strike somewhere in the nation.
Bill "Newkirk"
All planes have been accounted for. The initial report of eight missing planes was false.
-- David
Chicago, IL
They probably did not have guns but knives instead. Probably physically large, too. Whoever they were, they must have had some pilot training, too. I cannot imagine any pilot, any American pilot, directing his plane to crash into an area teeming with people, even under threat of murder because he and his passengers would die anyway. And these terrorists must have staked out airport security at those locations for some time. And it was a fairly large group, too. I have no more access to unpublished sources than you, but from I know from the media it seems to me that Bin Laden is just not a large enough group and they don't have the intelligence about American airport security. They could have gotten pilot training in an Arab country, though. There is at least one larger terror groups than Bin Laden's and that operates in the U.S.A. under the guise of a religious charity, and to me this is a more likely suspect. But how did the FBI, CIA, MI6, French intelligence, Mossad, and KGB all miss? Don't they coordinate when it comes to terrorists or are someone else's terrorists merely "militants"?
Looking at the video of the second plane crashing into the WTC - the way he did that roll - only trained fighter pilots do that.
wayne
>>Looking at the video of the second plane crashing into the WTC - the way he did that roll - only trained fighter pilots do that.
>>
>>wayne
What was the reason for the roll, to get more floors?
Could be. Did it just like the Zero pilots did in WWII.
wayne
Actually in the video, it looked as if that second plane would actually MISS the second tower, but he did that clever "roll" that you are talking about, and created a gash and a huge explosion through the right side of the tower.
Normal airplane pilots don't need that much flexibility for regular flights.
The first people to notice the oddity of the FOUR flights, were the AIR TRAFFIC CONTROL people. (obviously)
This demonstration was displayed at CNN last night. According to the radar:
1) AA Flight 11 from BOS to LAX starts out fine until the border line of west Massachusetts. Then all of a sudden, the plane swerves sharply south, heading towards the twin towers.
2) AA Flight -- (?) from WAS-Dulles to LAX has headed for the White house, then the pilot changed his mind to hit the Pentagon instead right after takeoff.
3) UA Flight 93 from EWR to SFO. It does fine all the way to Cleveland, OH, then, out of the Milky Way Galaxy, the hi-jacker turns the plane 180 degrees around, headed towards the direction of the Washington D.C. area.
Groups of passengers were trying to overcome the hi-jackers, and three people issued bomb threats on this plane. As the plane was heading to Washington, it descended and crashed in a rural area 8 miles from Pittsburgh in Somerset, PA.
4) I don't recall the last flight it originated from, etc. but I just heard that the plane turned back around in New Jersey, headed towards the towers.
I guess you would have an idea.
Wayne, I don't think one would need to be a fighter pilot to do that. So far, it turns out that everything I said in that post was correct, except that it turns out that all of the flight schools for jet liners are located in Europe and the U.S.A. And these pilots got their training in the U.S.A. My guess is still that Bin-Laden was not involved in directly in this one, rather that it was plotted in the U.S.A. by a religious organization of foreign origin that has been headquarted in the U.S.A. for some time, graciously hosted by the U.S.A.'s constitutional freedom of religion.
Yes our Airport security is a joke, Minimum Wage people, just one sep out of welfare. The Airlines hire companies who do not really train the security people. No training high turn around Usually new immigrants. Airport Security is a joke.
to all my e-friends: I am safe at home. All planes throughout the US have just been grounded. I got home and heard the bulletin on the radio and turned on the TV. I will keep tghe pc off today to save phone lines for emergency use.
As of now all subways are suspended- tunnels and bridges closed. Dont know yet about PATH but I expect their WTC service is out too. I do not know about NJT
from NJT: PATH also out to WTC and Newport.
From TV 4- ***all** train service to NYC suspended. No word yet about subways other than 1,2,3,9 but I expect major subway problems if they are running.
I will not post further updates today. I urge all subtalkers to pray to their deity for safety during this nationwide crisis.
I do not have cable and the air signals of channels 4,5,7,9,11,13 are out, their tx is (was) on top of the WTC.
Channel 2 is on channel 2.
Channel 4 is on channel 26.
Channel 7 is on channel 25.
I have 3 tv's.1 has cable,the rest basic tv.I only can get channel 2 on the basic tv's.
I cannot get channel 26. It seems NBC seems to have hardly any backup simulcasts whereas WABC is on 25,50, and 68.
I lost it too.
One slight ray of joy is that one of my railfan comrades is safe. I really pray that none of our Subtalkers were victims of this tragedy. It is horrible enough that so many good people have had their lives ended by this, but to lose some of our colleagues on Subtalk would be very hard to take. My prayers are with you all.
to all my e-friends: I am safe at home. All planes throughout the US have just been grounded. I got home and heard the bulletin on the radio and turned on the TV. I will keep tghe pc off today to save phone lines for emergency use.
Good news for ACELA!
No offense but amtrak trains are suspended too.
Amtrak's suspended as is all Greyhound travel, which is logical -- there's no way this happened without some on-the-ground help from people on the inside Logan Airport in Boston and Newark International Airport, and odds are they're trying to make a break for the border right now, whether it's Canada or Mexico.
Amtrak service has resumed.
IN FACT, ridership has GREATLY increased on AMTRAK for those passengers wishing to get home.
AMTRAK is worried, however, they are not equipped with enough equipment, cars, trains, etc. to handle all of those passengers. A spokesman of AMTRAK says they will do the best they can to serve them and to handle this situation.
The article is found at the website domain: Trains.com .
Click on NewsWire on the top left-hand side, and AMTRAK's logo with the link to this article can be found.
Also, a week ago, a "NEWS ALERT" headline on Trains.com stated that an AMTRAK train has derailed (California Zephyr from Chicago, IL to Emeryville, CA) out in the middle of the desert in Utah.
No one was killed but I think some people were injured. The train was still upright, and "in-line".
I think the California Zephyr is the least trusted line that is operated by AMTRAK.
There was something about it, since this line suffered a derailment also many moons ago.
: |
Railfan Pete.
I'm still shaken up by this terible event,this is my hometown and for this to happen i just am at a loss to imagine whats going through the minds of people who would do this thing,my prayers are for all of N.Y.C.
And mine as well.
Sincerely,
Fred Donaher
Now do you see why putting the City's Emergency Command Bunker in the WTC was a STUPID STUPID idea!!!!! They should have put it in the old City Hall station.
"Now do you see why putting the City's Emergency Command Bunker in the WTC was a STUPID STUPID idea!!!!! They should have put it in the old City Hall station. "
Here in North Dakota, our emergency base is in an underground bunker on a military base.
I guess in NYC, I might have built such an underground bunker deep under Central Park.
Elias
Putting the "bunker" in the WTC was one way of saying to terrorists that you can't scare NYC that easily...
Boldness or foolhardyness, you make the call. We sould have a thread about the best new location for the command bunker.
Here's the take on the command center's loss from Wednesday's Newsday:
Rudy's $13M Bunker Came Crashing Down
Central Park? Naah, you put it in a place where nobody would ever expect it to be-i.e. under some nondescript building on the Lower East Side or Chelsea or Hell's Kitchen or some similar neighborhood.
wayne
I can understand the reasoning behind your statement. That said, I believe the Emergency Command Center is actually located at either #6 WTC or #9 WTC, not in either of the Twin Towers, nor in #7 WTC, which also collapsed. This may not be the appropriate time to say this, but I have to agree that a less vulnerable - and more secret - location may be required in the future, but we'll get to that point at another time...
I'm at 95 wall street @ water street... we've been told not to evacuate. there's no place to go. no bridges or tunnels or trains. don't know about the ferries but the smoke is so thick it looks like fog, can't see across the street, it would be suicide to go outside. the web site is still up, so I see, and it's located a few blocks south at 25 Broadway. don't know how long it will stay up. we have cable tv so we're still getting all the nyc stations plus cnn... it sounds like 2 wtc (south tower) has collapsed above the point of entry of the plane. the live tv pictures actually showed the plane heading into the building. the reports are saying they were apparently a 737 or 757 twin engine commercial jet and some sort of smaller business jet. the one report is that a plane was hijacked from boston but no word as to which airline, flight, # of passengers.
Thank God Almighty you're all right!
wayne
Ditto here. Dave, keep us posted please.
-Fred
I'm at home now but I had it lucky -- the NY Waterway is evacuating people and victims to Jersey City (home to me) to take them to Jersey City Medical Center, the closest easily reachable trauma center. Manhattan is so gridlocked it's pointless trying to get to Bellevue.
Glad to hear you're okay. I like what you did to the home page.
Thanks. I want to thank my friend Joe for letting me use his photo (taken from campus of Stevens Institute in Hoboken).
A beautiful tribute. One I wish that was never made, however.
oh yeah i forgot to mention i walked thru there about 15 minutes before it happened...
whoa just now the building (95 wall st) shook. something else is going down...
The other tower.
Arti
Dave: Be careful. I hope all ends well. My prayers are with all of my Subtalk colleagues. Today I am a New Yorker.
As am I. Folks, take that with whatever grain of salt that you wish.
-F.
Me too
Well put Fred and thanks.
I'm currently working as the main information conduit at my school, and the mta website is down (go figure), so all we know is what we hear, and that is that subways are down.
Does anyone know if/when this will come back up, and if not, if other ways out (pedestrians via bridges, ferries) are working?
(going to school in upper Manhattan, most people live in the other 4 boroughs but go to school here).
660 just said A line operating over the F from W4 to Jay; L running; NY Waterways running free ferries to Weehawken; Midtown tunnel open outbound.
Is it possible to swim across the Harlem River?
Good point, most of the bridges in harlem (145 and 155th St) are quite short and are unlikely to be closed.
Just to be a little light hearted in this dark time, I would not advise swimming anywhere with what has been going on this summer. Sharks. :)
Ny Waterways is operating but what I gather to NJ only. The lines were long too.
Arti
America is now under attack. Anyone who feels they are safe from these insane bastards has another thing coming. May God bless the victims of this gutless act and may President Bush take the action needed to remedy this piece of treachery.
Bush says nothing in 2 speeches, lets see whatn happens in the days and weeks to come
In this case, I'd rather have a bad speech and real action with results, than an elequent speech and only perfunctory action against the terrorists, as happened after the African Embassy bombings in 1998. No way Bush can lob a few cruise missiles at some caves in the Afghan hills (or wherever) and turn around and say "We won" on this.
America, l;ike NYC is in state of shock about WTC and what is now unfolding around this country.
When the shock subsides and reality sets in, we will be a changed nation. God help any people of Middle Eastern/Arabic origin. They may be looked on as the enemy or infiltrators.
God help all those who believe in military spending cuts and the general pacifist attitude toward war and the military. In a free society such as ours, freedom isn't free, there is an obvious price for it.
Also God help those critical of the "Star Wars" SDI programs seen as wastefull spending when the same money should have been spent on "social" programs.
This has been brewing since the 60s. America slowly has been conditioned to reject authority, hate the military, reject religion and patriotism.
Now what do we do next ? America wasn't violated, we were gang raped by Middle East terrorists. Do we call upon the useless United Nations who embrace the nations that harbor terrorists ?
All I can say is..........
GOD HELP AMERICA
GOD HELP US IF THE ANSWER TO THIS IS A NUCLEAR STRIKE.
Bill "Newkirk"
I am so angered by this action. In general I do not support war, but after such a large attack, right in America's largest city I will support our military and our President if the action is to bomb the Middle East or other evil terrorists.
I have been trembling all day, I have a throbbing headache and I can barely eat. I can't believe this is happening. The World Trade Center is gone and all it took was two airplanes and a few evil minds. We have let our guard down as a people. I always thought that if planes ever planned to crash into NYC, that the air force would intercept them and destroy them. Sadly this did not happen.
The WTC is gone, and probably will take some time, if ever, it is rebuilt. Structurally it looked quite flimby, as each tower collapsed. I remember hearing of a plane that crashed into the Empire State Building in it's infancy, and the building survived. But WTC fell like a stack of cards.
I remember hearing of a plane that crashed into the Empire State Building in it's infancy, and the building survived. But WTC fell like a stack of cards.
I'm out in Denver on business, although not much business has been done today. One of the techs that I was talking with at lunch offered this analysis of the situation. The aircraft, loaded with jet fuel (they had just left for California) struck the towers at approximately the 70% mark. The impact of the crash damaged many of the building supports at that level, and additionally dumped jet fuel into the building, where it poured down elevator and ventilation shafts and ignited. The chimney effect of the intense flames - jet fuel, being basically kerosene, burns at an extremely high temperature - weakened the already damaged structure to the point where the upper section collapsed inward, cascading downward and imploding the rest of the structure along with it.
The crash of the Army Air Corps bomber into the Empire State building many years ago involved a much smaller aircraft travelling at a slower speed and powered by aviation gasoline, which burns at a much lower temperature, hence the significantly lower amount of damage.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
My dad actually got into the building to cover that crash for the New York Herald-Tribune. The plane hit a floor where a Catholic War Relief Agency was working, killing several people. It also cut an elevator cable with passengers inside, but the engine went all the way through the building and crashed through the roof of an artists' studio on the other side of 33rd St.
Because of its constrction, the Empire State probably would have survived the small plane's collision, but the American Airlines jet may have taken it out the same way it did No. 1 WTC.
>>> God help any people of Middle Eastern/Arabic origin. <<<
I would hope that the proportion of Americans who would want to take "revenge" against innocent persons because of their ethnic background is minuscule.
>>> God help all those who believe in military spending cuts and the general pacifist attitude toward war and the military. <<<
The military was not and could not be effective in preventing this incident. Presumably the four airliners were hijacked by a small number of people, (as little as two per plane) using non metallic weapons.
>>> Also God help those critical of the "Star Wars" SDI programs seen as wastefull spending <<<
If anything, this makes the case for those critical of the cost of SDI. The threat of an attack by missile which could be traced back to its origin is minimal compared to a covert terrorist attack.
>>> This has been brewing since the 60s. America slowly has been conditioned to reject authority, hate the military, reject religion and patriotism. <<<
You seem to be suggesting this was done by home grown hippies from the ‘60s. Very unlikely.
>>> America wasn't violated, we were gang raped by Middle East terrorists. <<<
You have better intelligence sources than the U.S. government, since it has not yet blamed Middle East terrorists for this attack. But then if you look at the similarity to the Oklahoma City bombing, you just know it had to be done by Middle East terrorists. Once the U.S. government determines that this was done by Middle East terrorists you can be sure it will destroy a few pharmaceutical factories with cruise missiles in retaliation, which may or may not make those who lost friends and family feel better.
Tom
From London: Im sure I speak for most on this side of the Atlantic, that our prayers go out to you this evening, our friends & transportation collegues on NYCT.
The "back" link here takes you to the first known SubTalk post to refer to the 9/11 attacks.
SubTalk was a useful resource that morning, as all of the news websites were completely overloaded.
Was. Aaaand always IS!
That one thread when Dave Pirmann says "Whoa, the building just shook"---still gives me chills----It makes me wonder if this particular web site became one of the few outlets of information from inside the city....those of us outside NY could easily turn to CNN or other stations that didn't rely on the tower on top WTC 1 to get a signal....I know for me, my close call was Flight 93---it crashed about 30 miles to my north, but as another subtalker said (I don't know which one)--That day, we were all New Yorkers---Bravo!!
That post was where I first learned of the attacks. I remember it quite vividly.
Mark
15 months later and it still makes me absolutely sick.
I don't think I'll ever have real closure.
How can any of us ever have actual closure---We are first generation
Sept. 11th survivors---closure will come with the passing of generations---with the hopes that it's never forgotten or treated as a passing fad. The same is true w/ Pearl Harbor---the way people view it that were alive when it happened is different than those that only know it through news clips, stories from Grandpa or movies such as Tora,Tora,Tora and Midway....As much as I'd like to think people will give this more reverence, I think it will travel down the same road as Dec. 7th---it'll never be forgotten but will never receive the remembrance it truly deserves.
Yes, I remember that thread which grew very quickly. Now - when the plane hit the Pentagon I heard it and saw the smoke rising from my office. I finally went home around 6:30 PM that day and the streets were pretty deserted.
Wayne
My first thought was of the 1940's ESB crash and about how some idiot private flier fucked up big time. I tried to go to cnn.com for images, but I couldn't get through to it.
Oddly enough. From 9 to 9:45 Subtalk was my sole source for the breaking 9/11 news (all other news sites were jammed). It was only after nearly an hour I realized that I had a TV I could turn on.
If you look at the old messages, I might have been the first one to mention that a second plane had slammed into the World Trade Center and that was the one that hit the South Tower.
#3 West End Jeff
GOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOODDDDDDDD
FFFFFFFFFFFOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOORRRRRRRRRRR
YYYYYYYYYYYOOOOOOOOOOOOUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Thank you for your comment.
#3 West End Jeff
Well, at least you beat the rush.... btw, that other feller's sarcastic comment and your coolheaded response made me laugh. LOL
:)
I have found that the Internet is a great medium for getting your point across when somebody says something that isn't exactly kosher. It is also a great way to argue with someone when they don't agree with you. I have found the Internet a great way to deal with others since my social skills are on the weak side because I have a mild form of autism [Asperger's Syndrome]. In addition my speech sounds a bit funny to some because I have a minor cleft palate too. Otherwise my speech is quite understandable. As a matter of fact more people can understand me better than most of the school kids today. I certainly can by more easily understood than what you hear coming through the P/A system in the subways. Th y r h rd t nd rst nd.
#3 West End Jeff
I'll never forget that message. That's where I read about it first. As soon as I read Allan's message, I ran to the south side of the building I work in, One Penn Plaza - 30th floor, and saw the North Tower in flames. We all thought it was a terrible accident at first. A few minutes later I saw the second plane hit the South Tower and yelled out to those who were watching with me - "That's gotta be a terrorist attack; I'm getting out of here" I took the first elevator downstairs, got the next LIRR train (which happened to go to my stop). All the time I was thinking let's get going - they may hit the Empire State Building next, which is right over the LIRR tracks. My wife had to pick me up at Mineola station because in my haste I had left my car keys in the office. I was home in time to see the second tower (first one hit) fall down.
I had to go to Larchmont that day and when I was traveling on the interchange ramp between the southbound Bronx River Parkway and the eastbound Cross County Parkway I could see the North Tower burning, the South Tower had already collasped. By the time I was in downtown Larchmont I heard over my car radio [tuned to WINS-AM 1010] that the North Tower had just come down. My car's clock read 10:29 when I heard the news.
#3 West End Jeff
I never read that post: I was in school at the time. There was a rumor that a plane had hit the World Trade Center, but I couldn't verify, because all the hallways with windows in stuy are on the north side... then I saw all the fire trucks/police cars headed south, and realized it wasn't a lie. Saw my first glance on a TV in the lunch room. We were trying to figure out a way to see it live when I realized the library faced south. I got there just after the second hit. Some kid was saying that he thought it may have been 'a control tower problem'. I didn't believe there was a second plane actually. Once people statrted falling, I left the library.
My next class faced south as well. We were watching the news coverage, and they were re-playing the 2nd plane's collision. Then news of the pentagon came in. Then 2 World Trade Center started collapsing. We all ran to the windows (stupid, huh?) and looked at the tower falling. Our lights flickered and the TV went out.
When the tower fell, I was scared for only a second. When I looked out the window, I was worried about the firemen: their trucks which were flashing their lights moments ago were nowhere to be seen.
I came out of Stuy just after 1WTC fell. Because the dust cloud was so high, I thought that it was still standing. Didn't know it was gone till I contacted my mom.
Stuy as in like across from BMCC?
After exiting the subway I pointed out the WTC to her and asked if she wanted to go inside the complex; I had been there a number of times, most recently that April, but she had never been there. She said no, she'd like to but we didn't have time so maybe next trip.
About halfway between the dock and Liberty Island, I went up to the top deck of the ferry and looked north toward lower Manhattan. You all know how nice the weather was those few days and the view looked like a postcard; it was so beautiful it took my breath away and filled this ex-NYer's heart with pride. I dragged my wife upstairs and made her look (she suffers from sea sickness and was sitting below). She agreed the view was beautiful.
Before we left St. Louis she asked me to take my camera. I chose not to, telling her "We've been to NYC many times and I used to live there. I know what it looks like so why do I want to spend my time looking through a viewfinder?" I got a big "I told you so!" and I agreed with her I should have taken my camera to capture that gorgeous view. My comment was, "Next time, I'll bring the camera."
Sunday evening we flew out of LGA and as we banked southward after departing to the west, I pointed out the lights of the WTC to her and said, "Say goodbye."
Less than 36 hours later it was gone forever.
But Alma said unto him: The Spirit constraineth me that I must not stretch forth mine hand; for behold the Lord receiveth them up unto himself, in glory; and he doth suffer [allow] that they may do this thing, or that the people may do this thing unto them, according to the hardness of their hearts, that the judgments which he shall exercise upon them in his wrath may be just; and the blood of the innocent shall stand as a witness against them, yea, and cry mightily against them at the last day."
Book of Mormon, Alma 14:10-11, emphasis added
What a magnificent picture to share with this on the 2nd passing of that dreadful event.
Today I mentioned at work the events leading up to the horrible news. At the coffee station we were discussing Michael Jordan returning to the game. I expressed concern that he may get hurt as he is getting older. Five minutes later a co-workers wife called in to say a plane hit the WTC. My reply was that small planes hit large buildings from time to time. Minutes later we were watching in horror the events unfold and I witnessed the second strike.
Within a half hour downtown Chicago began an evacuation plan and I was on the #156 bus heading back north. It was an ride I'll never forget with all of the riders just staring into "space".
I had my own little prayer for those who were victims of this cowardly attack today. The victims are at peace, but those left behind must endure the "new" ways.
9/11/2001 is a day that changed this country. It is my wish that the terrorists never win.
Thank you for sharing.
Jim K.
Chicago
WTC Tower 2 has just collapsed.
Any thoughts?
What about PA leasing the property?
Could this have damaged the subways below?
Tha whole Lower Manhattan is in smoke.
Arti
I'm not really in the mood for discussing the legal implications of this attack, so let me make this short. It depends on the terms of the lease. At common law, destruction of a leased building does not terminate a tenant's obligation to pay rent. The logic behind this is that the value of a farm is in its fields, not in its structures. All modern leases contain terms dealing with the possibility of fire or other calamity. I expect that the pertinent terms of the lease will be publicized in the next few days or weeks.
I hope Chinatown is OK.
They evacuate people south of Canal.
Arti
If it ok with you out there I don't want to hear about leases or property rights. They are of little importance right now. The fate of those victims of this tragedy are all that is important. I have to make myself believe that New York will overcome all this. They are a strong and sturdy lot and it will take a lot more than what this band of human vermin have done to sh ake the spirit of the residents of the greatest city in the world
I agree 100%
David
yeah me too
subways towers planes etc can all be replaced
fathers mothers etc cannot
JeremyWills
Also I agree with Fre, you can rebuild a building, or replace a airplane, but thousands of families lost a loved one , including over the 200 fire, police and other rescue people who are missing, and their years of training to hjelp people
I watched it with my own two eys on TV live as it happened, my house in sympathy tears right now. This is so hard to grasp!
Regards,
Trevor Logan
www.transitalk.com
for the whole time, i have been hyperventilating. i can't stop. i am now stuck in manhattan and very very upset. this is the worst.
Calm down. The subways or some of them are beginning to re-open, as are some of the bridges and tunnels.
Please stay calm and keep us innformed on your safety. My prayers are with you.
Sincerely,
Fred Donaher
I agree with you entirely. I have to keep reminding myself that it's not a dream. It just doesn't seem real.
I'm very scared. I'm at work now at 5th Ave and 16th St and I don't know if I'm going to get home.
Andrew
B"H
if you're scared, consider the plight of the folks who don't have to worry about going home tonight at all....
i was thinking...this is gonna really screw up all of the downtown subway lines for awhile....
eek.
Ok this is not the time to be thinking about subway lines effects, Thousands of lives could be lost at this rate.
Its SOOO scary!
T.
B"H
was just trying to keep things on topic, so folks dont get all hot and bothered about it...
i agree however...it's gonna be bad...real bad...
i would surmise (based upon friends who live there) that this is what it's like to live in Israel...every day.
At this point I don't think topic matters. This is a major catastrophe, and our friends are out there in the middle of it. As much as I love buses and transit, I care more about you people than those things ANY day. We need to know what happens there as news develops. In fact, I know that's why most of us are on the board right now at this very moment. May God be with us all.
Sincerely,
Fred Donaher
I agree all the way.
-F.
I don't believe Dave is going to be upset if we are off topic today. There are Subtalkers involved in this tragedy and my prayers are that none of my colleagues are in harms way.
> I don't believe Dave is going to be upset if we are off topic today.
No, not at all... I was there myself...
Again, very glad and extremely relieved to hear that you are OK.
I am watching Fox 5 News and they are showing some video, I would guess looking up either Vesey Street or Dey Street showing the collapse of 2WTC. This is an unprecedented disaster; no doubt the worst to ever occur here in New York.
According to Fox News, the Federal Government has declared some sort of a state of emergency; I will try and figure out just what this means - next up: CNN.
Simon Billis has touched base with me and he too is in a state of shock; expect to see some posting from him soon.
wayne
My thoughts are with you all in this dark hour.
Simon
Swindon UK
Simon: We are all aware over here that Great Britain and the United States stand shoulder to shoulder and we can count on each other in time of crisis. Thanks for your concern.
ABC has the best coverage.
I was at the W.T.C.a week before it was bombed,to work as a bldg engineer,the person who was going to hire me was on vacation himself,i was asked to come back the next week i would have but my son was real sick back in Oregon,so i went back home the folling week the bomb went off.....iknew some of those people in the engineering office,the office people came out ok the engineer who is being helped away from the building was one of the men i would have worked with he's on the newsreels,i suspose he and all the people i kneware gone....this has hit me very deeply,it's like being in a bad dream...but it isn't, I WILL JUST PRAY FOR THOSE WE LOST.
Ditto here. I'll drink to that.
-F.
At least, for most people in the complex, is was a slow motion tragety in that there was enough time for most people to escape (especially in the smaller buildings, the PATH station and the Mall.)
I don't know about that. The WTC has good a emergency management plan and I'm sure that they consider each of the small buildings as important as the towers. Remember the fire at the N/R station escalators a few months ago? That evacuation was swift including the Mall and the small buildings.
The people are the main concern. I'd worry about them over the subways first and foremost above all.
That's a fact. Think about those who were on the planes that flew into the Twin Towers, as well as all those that were in them at the time.
I am. Believe me, I am.
-F.
Relax. Not getting home tonight won't kill you. Be thankful that you are still able to be scared.
Agreed. I'm also thankful that I work in a basement.
Andrew
This is true. Hang in there, my friend.
Sincerely,
Fred Donaher
Andrew, my prayers are with you. Please keep us informed on your safety.
Sincerely,
Fred Donaher
Thank you. I'm allright (see other thread.)
Andrew
MisterK: I'm pulling for you. Take care and be careful, and may God bless you.
Same here. Please update us on your situation. We're right here waiting to hear from you.
Sincerely,
Fred Donaher
Sorry it took so late to get back to you, but I've been shell-shocked as new reports of casualties come trickling in. Out here in Los Angeles, our LAX has been shut down tight and no flights are scheduled tomorrow as of now. Police Chief Benard Parks has mobilized his force and has deployed them in sensitive areas of the city. Disneyland, Knott's Berry Farm and other amusement parks have been shut down, as have many large malls in the county of Los Angeles, including our own Santa Anita Mall here in Arcadia.
I have a take on this, though. It would seem to me that if terrorists wanted to really strike at our jugular they would pick a place like New York. After all, it is really the world's capital and the most fabled city in the globe. After that, why not go after our nation's capital. That was done. In think we will be all right in Los Angeles because it doesn't have the aura of New York and D.C.
I'm OK. I was never that close to the situation, just close enough (at 5th and 16th) to see the devastation from afar. I was terrified, as were all New Yorkers (and all Americans), but I walked over to my relatives' apartment in Gramercy Park, and even went home to Queens in the evening.
Thank you all for your concern.
Andrew
They will rebuild...
:-(
%&%#ing PLA
2nd tower rdown!
Arti
What is the status of 3,4,5 and 6 WTC and the World Financial Center
From the images on TV it's difficult to see, but one glimpse I got, it looked like some adjacent building was damaged.
Arti
The two buildings across the st. in the WFC, American Express/Lehman and Merrill Lynch South/Nomura? were damaged as well in the falling debris..
12:18PM Sept 11 2001
The building to the North of WTC has no doubt been damaged as well;
that's the one that fronts on Vesey Street.
I don't know how many times I've gone outside that building to smoke (I don't smoke any more) or have passed through the building. It's not just the two towers, it is the buildings around it; the shopping mall, the hotels across the street AND behind it; the buildings to the north and south - it is mind-boggling!!! We are under attack, no doubt and where is Dubya? WHERE THE HELL IS HE?
I have CNN on right now and am monitoring things.
wayne
Bush is on Air Force One, having left Sarasota FL this am. The Pentagon has ordered two US ships to the NYC area - USS George Washington & USS John F. Kennedy.
My mistake. He was going to Louisiana from Florida when the tragedy struck.
He was in Sarasota when it happened. He was going to go to DC but then Secret Service changed the plans.
I am by no means a fan of President Bush, but in a time such as we are experiencing, all Americans need to give him (and all our elected leaders and those in authority) our complete and total support.
All people of good will everywhere cannot allow these cowardly acts to benefit the vermin that commited them.
God have mercy on the poor victims and their loved ones.
Piggo/Bill
I agree; I did not vote for Bush but he is, after all, the man in charge of the free world and I pray that he will make the right decisions to protect our freedom and safety.
All people of good will everywhere cannot allow these cowardly acts to benefit the vermin that commited them.
People who can kill themselves for a cause they believe in aren't really coawrds. I think we need to find another adjitive like evil, low, dispicable, etc.
The term fanatic would apply very much in this case.
I heard eyewitness reports of people trampling each other...
Arti
President Bush was in Lousiana reading to students when the tragedy occurred. He is on TV now exhorting us to be strong, and promising that those responsible will be dealt with. I hope he really mean this because I have no sympathy for the filthy swine who did this. I am smelling blood and I think I speak for many Americans.
Actually he was in Sarasota FL, he's now at an A.F.B. in Louisiana. And no matter what you might think of the President he's better off there than in D.C. or NYC. I'm sure he will handle the situation well.
I personally despised Bush up until this morning for being a trigger-happy Texas cowboy, but right now that's exactly what we need. I pray that him and his staff will display the same swiftness and decisiveness that the elder Bush displayed during the Persian Gulf War. One thing is certain: We will find the people who did this, and we will destroy them. I, for one, would be happy to peronally push the button that turns the entire Middle Eastern desert into a giant sheet of glass.
-- David
Chicago, IL
Ditto!
Everythig goes from the Jordan River East to the Gangees river.Thats where all the Terrorism is, and the world will be a better place
We have to solve the Afghan parking crisis: Turn Kabul into a parking lot.
The Middle East has a huge need for large new parking lots.
Looking at the clips on TV about Both towers. The only thought I can say is
OH MY GOD!
What else can one say?
Those bastards should be punished to the fullest extent of the law. That is EXACTLY what I have to say.
Whoever did this terrorist attack should swallow a bomb and it will blow up inside them.
That's too quick. They should be put in a box and starved to death.
Those terrorists shoud have two options on how the will get killed
Option 1. fast and painful
Option 2. slow and horrible
I chose both. Live vivasection? Maybe crucifiction ...
Well, if there is one bit of good news, NYC can win back the world's tallest building title again when it builds World Trade Centre II.
Actually, I doubt it.
It will be a grassy memorial.
All of those corporations who as need space will build in smaller, more separated buildings in New Jersey.
Elias
I truly don't think so, remember Malbone Street. If anyone would ask me I'd vote for a memorial. A grassy square....
Arti
RUN AWAY! RUN AWAY RUN AWAY
I might,
It'd easy to say it from NJ, but try to by few miles next to it with your friends reporting from the spot.
Arti
I watched 1 WTC fall with my own eyes. I never believed that in my lifetime, I would see those massive towers fall, and certainly not in live, living color.
Wasn't there a recent post about what NYC will look like in 100 years?
Well, whatever it is, it's gonna start at an empty patch of land on Vesey Street...
Yeah, I'm sick to my stomach.
PLANE CRASHES AT PENTAGON
Good thing the Pentagon was built the way it was. It is the largest office building in the world.
The death toll as of today at the Pentagon is 188.
If you notice closely, the frames of the windows were left intact at the site of the crash. They were blast-resistant.
Fire has also burned at the Pentagon for more than 48 hours. Firemen are still there trying to put it out, I hope they have it out by now.
I believe the section that has been hit was the section that was just renovated. Such a tragic scene....
People say that the aircraft was initially headed towards the White House, headed for the President himself, but went to the nearby Pentagon instead.
All four planes have crashed before the military could intercept them.
Such a tragic event.....
: |
Railfan Pete.
Anyone know what is ging on with the A,C,E and other lines? I assume they are not running but are they damaged?
No subways are running, tunnels to Manhattan sealed, as far as damage to subways, my guess would be we wouldn't know for few days, they probably have to inspect the structures even without visible damage.
Arti
Lets all try to keep a level head here & report any FACTS that we know. At this depot we've suspended all Express service to/from Manhattan, but our buese in Queens are running.
We're getting phone calls from folks who want to get out of Manhattan, so if anyone has information that anything, in the public transportation area, is running please report it here, e.g. some think the #7 is running out of Times Square, we're telling folks it's not.
As I type this Rudy is making a announcement ... he says they are TRYING to restore subway service in Manhattan to help get folks out of that boro.
Mr t
Disclaimer: I'm not a official spokesperson of nycDOT or my employeer.
At this point ALL subways have shut down, PATH is closed ALL bridges and Tunnels are closed. Rudy is trying to evacuate everyone south of Canal St. My wife has been evacuated out of her building (The Flatiron Bldg) and is heading to her boss's house until she can get home.
[My wife has been evacuated out of her building (The Flatiron Bldg) ]
Flatiron? 23rd St? That's near me, why did they evacuate her?
Arti
Flatiron is a landmarked building and they get scared realy easy. I think this crisis overwhelms anything going on in a publishing house legal dept.
Thanks.
Arti
Alex- do you have your RTO Radio. If so contact RTO or stations and advise them I am asking for emergency AVA, Pass 200301
To all subtalkers- Alex tried and they refused the emergency day off. How can I walk to the city from Edison, NJ--I cant--I could walk to Perth Amboy but then the bridge to Staten Island is closed. any ideas?
I have e-mailed the union to file a grievance for myself and all NYCT employees strandfwed by the disaster and cant get back to NYC.
If I have to go to work I also can not. I need the Greorge Washington Bridge. This was the first week my RDO's where switched to Tues/Wednesday.
Well if I can't get into NYC by Thurday it is safe to say I will no longer have a career with NYCT because chances are I will be fired under an AWAL charge. I am still on Probation.
All I can say I am just happy to be alive. My dad was nearly under the World Trade center. My dad was at Chambers Street when it started to happen. Luckly he was held at Chamber for a gap in service and then when the T/D let the train go Control ordered all trains to Stop and stay then he got turned back Uptown.
I hope everyone is safe and ok. I don't have words to how I'm feeling right now.
Dave -- if you have to, could you drive north to the Tappan Zee Bridge, then south into Manhattan?
With all of the disruption going on, if the TA took severe action against everyone who was unable to get to work, they'd have no one left to work! So I suspect (at least hope) that there will be forgiveness for those who are blocked from getting to work due to circumstances beyond their control.
The TA would have many wrongful termination suits, along with any other employers whho fire people who could not get to work, That happened back in 95 with the N orthridge Earthquake, people could not get to work and ass hole bosses fired them.
"Well if I can't get into NYC by Thurday it is safe to say I will no longer have a career with NYCT because chances are I will be fired under an AWAL charge. I am still on Probation."
I'm quite sure that if you can't get to work, at least one or two others will have the same problem. I would find it hard to believe that the TA or any NY employer would take any action against any employee who cannot get to work in this time of crisis.
The A train started Manhattan-bound service around 2pm.
I started in Lynbrook with a Bablyon train to Jamaica and biked over to Liberty Ave. station where it took about a 1/2 hour, but our A Train finally departed city-bound.
I am at my office in downtown Brooklyn and I biked to the Manhattan Bridge walkway and was able to get some eerie images of the Brooklyn Bridge with a plume of black-brown smoke billowing out beside it.
Very surreal...
BMTman
I agree with Train Dude. Just do the best you can, and hang in there. If you get to your post, finbe; if you don't, no one is really going to worry about it. Satisfy yourself that you made an honest effort, and tomorrow is another day.
I called Stations Command on behalf of subway-buff. The woman who answered said they were treating this as on the same level as a snow emergency: she had to report to work, no excuses accepted. Assuming Stations Command tapes their calls like RTO, her name and pass as well as my own are on their tape.
I'm quite sure you spoke to a 1st level supervisor. If it got to management levels, common sense would prevail. As it stands now, PATH is running full service so SUBWAY-BUFF should be able to get in.
While PATH is running, there is no bus or train service to Newark, NJ where PATH is running. If you cant get to Newark then I cant get to PATH.
I have instructed TWU to file a mass grievance on behalf of all employees hindered from getting to work due to the disaster.
How is that relevant, everyone knows that it was enforced, and impossible to enter the city?
Arti
Transit says it was just a snow day! I know-- but go figure!
Arti, where are you? Are you safe? Please advise!
-Fred
I'm at home @26th Street & 3rd. The mention of Flatiron being evacuated kind of scared me. Interestingly, I guess the unbelievability of the event didn't kick in immediately, I have my fear escalating as time goes by.
Arti
I am keeping you and your wife in my prayers. May you safely find each other soon.
Sincerely,
Fred Donaher
Thanks Fred. She's OK at one of our friend's house uptown; I'm at my home with her parents.
Oh good; I thank God you are safe. Please take caution to remain so.
Sincerely,
Fred Donaher
Are ytou a fucking idiot????several thousand people are killed, and you want to know HOW THE GODDAMNED SUBWAYS ARE RUNNING????
FUCK YOU!
-Hank
bro--chill out, some of us have people down there + we want to know how and when they're gonna get out.
No, I asked if they were damaged, WTC-E is almost under the WTC, The A and C must go under the plaza. I work the line a lot. There are thousands in those subway tunnels in the AM.
In spite of the emotional nature of todays events I think you are out of line.
No, they don't quite go under the plaza. They turn off of Church Street just north of Fulton Street then head east. It's a 90-degree curve; tight but not TOO tight; in other words the tunnel lops the corner some as it turns. It also burrows under the Broadway Line as it turns.
wayne
The maps show the A,C as east of the plaza but I thought that might be artistic licence as the turn does not feel that sharp and the A platform is west of the E and the E is almost across from the NE corner. I thought the A crossed church south of the Century 21 store.
Plus all that debris is flying all over.
As it turns out the A is running on the F line so they must be concerned the subways vibrations might endanger the search even if the tunnels are still good.
I would be more concerned about damage to the "N" and "R" station at Cortlandt Street - it is closer to the surface and is right outside of where the buildings fell.
It is going to take years for things to return to normal in Lower Manhattan.
wayne
Given the gravity of the situation, time to free up some phone lines in the disaster area. I'll be back in a few days, but for now, it's best to sign off and free up bandwidth. This is some MIGHTY serious stuff ... I just can't get over what's going on here ... I'll miss any messages over the next several since I only go back 24 hours at best.
Our village here is gathering volunteers to send down and everyone's prayers up here are with you guys ... I won't see the responses here, so don't bother replying. Your fellow citizens NEED you right now, please try to help. We'll do what we can up here. Let's not talk it up, all of us New Yorkers are known to shine in our darkest hours. It's like the great blackout and other disasters ... email addy up top is for real, send if you need anything, but time to relieve the lines.
OH MY GOD!
T.
This is just sad. Very sad.
I can't believe it! It's a bad dream that became reality. Even worse!
They had some on site freelance video on ABC. Words fail to describe it. There is nothing left. Not even a stump. Only a little bit of the stainless steel facade. What caused the lower portions to collapse like this.
The fire was made of Jet Fuel. It flowed downward. It was washed downward by the water from the fire sprinklers. This fire heated the structural steel, and that is all she wrote.
Remember the walls of these buildings are "curtain walls" they carry no weight whatsoever, but they can be destroyed by the heat of the fire, yet the colapse seems to me to point to structural failure related to the fire.
The second tower to fall did not look like it was in serious trouble from the outside, yet it is clear that it was.
Elias
Down in Western pensylvania..
Pittsburg?
That makes me wonder if they were aimed for IRS Headquarters. Any thoughts or speculations?
-F.
Rumor has it they were going for Camp David and didn't make it.
This was the Newark-SFO flight that I had referred to in another posting. The crash occured in Somerset County, Penna. and was reportedly heading to Camp David.
I know a lot of the focus is on NYC - and rightfully so - but I'm also thinking about my fellow Pennsylvanians who were affected by this tragedy in my home state.
penna. i thought that the plane was heading to pittsburg.
i thought that it went down in the woods and that there were no grounf=d casualties.
This is bigger than Pearl Harbor.
Our prayers are with all of you in New York and elsewhere.
God's Peace,
-- David
Chicago, IL
Thanks, Dave. Much appreciated.
You know Chicago and New York share an important trait as cities. They both survive and rebound, whatever happens. New York will survive and overcome.
It sure will. I have faith in that.
-F.
I hope all Subtalkers & Bustalkers Past And Present are Alive And Well and to send Condolences And Hope to all of our Friends and Family Worldwide. :(,',',',',,'
I extend those condolences as well.
Sincerely,
Fred Donaher
660 reports a plane down at Camp David, the presidential retreat.
ACK! What happened there? Please give full details.
-F.
Sorry, it appeared as an aside early and I have heard nothing nore concerning this one.
The plane down in PA was possibly susposed to crash there.
I'm sitting here in my office at 110 William Street, trapped, no way to get home. I'm scared.
Lord help us all.
they are evacuating 95 wall right now...
I'm in 140 Broadway, and cannot leave. We will try to go to the church on William Street to pray.
They originally evacuated 110 William Street but now told us to stay.
I'm terrified.
Mitch, my prayers are with you as I am typing this response. Please hang in there.
-F.
we were evacuated over to south st. into NY Waterway ferries to Colgate Pier Jersey City where they are doing triage. Jersey City Medical Center is the closest reachable trauma center many victims are being ferried to NJ and taken by ambulance to JCMC and two other hospitals in JC and Hoboken NJ
Were the people inside them alright? Please give details as you can.
-F.
My ferry from the wall street ferry terminal was just evacuations but there were ferries from the WFC terminal coming with victims. emergency services in jersey city were meeting the boats and handing out food, water, breathing apparatus, etc.
Oh good....it's great to know you are OK. Keep us posted.
-F.
Does anyone know if the High School of Economics and Finance was evacuated before Towers 1 and 2 went down? 'Cause I got a brother who goes there. Even if they were evac'ed to SI I'll be glad.
they are evacuating 95 wall right now...
My building (395 Hudson Street, just n/o West Houston) was closed about 11:30 too. We were pretty much out of the danger zone, and in fact several people including me wanted to stay until the commuter-train situation was more clear, but we were told that the water was being shut off and therefore we'd have to leave. Apparently there's some city rule prohibiting occupancy of a water-less building.
Guys ... it's over ... both towers have collapsed and are gone. The nadger aside from smoke and dust are over for you at the moment. Stay inside and wait ... if you venture outside, you're at risk. If the falling buildings didn't get you' you're OK as long as the ventilation in the building is off. In the event that you are exposed to smoke, the most important thing is to get water, wet your shirts, take them off and use moisture-laden shirts and breathe through those.
Stay put though if you know what's good for you. Everything is shut down and there's no way out at the moment even if you DO get out of the building ... stay put!
Fortunately the wind seems to be towards the sea, I'm on 26th Street, no sign of smoke only sirens of emergency vechicles.
Arti
we all feel this pain... this slap in the face to our way of life. Is this hate that pushes this invisible foe...,most assuredly.HATE for the best country on the face of the planet,where anyone can come here and taste what we've had all along....FREEDOM!!!!!!! TO live anyway you choose[within means]and to love anyway we choose. to pursue a givin passion with all of your heart, mind,and soul.THIS IS AMERICA,PEOPLE!!! If you dont like it, Leave it! The time has come for us as a people and a nation to WAKE UP. We have made a few enemies over the years,for no other reason than that we are AMERICANS.The country that has paved the way for others.WHAT IS WRONG WITH THIS PICTURE? Wake up people. Ilove this place,for all it's faults.IT IS MY HOME,and someone creeped in the back door and hurt it.GOD help us,because we will all need it.
Somebody is bombing Afghanistan.
That's all that needs to be said
GOOOOOOOOOD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
The Boston MBTA has added extra service on all rapid transit lines, and the commuter rail is making all local stops.
All Boston/MBTA transit is now FREE OF CHARGE for anyone who wants to use it.
As Of 10:10 Am EDT (8:10 AM MST) NBC News is reporting American flight #11 Boeing 767 81 Pas 11 Crew Boston To LAX was Hijacked and "Dirvered to JFK" And turned Into WTC. From Washington Post DC Metro Is Running Regular Service Except that Pentagon Station Is Closed. Im unable to acess The NY MTA Web Site.
DC Metro Is Running Regular Service Except that Pentagon Station Is Closed.
DC Metro service was completely suspended for a period of time but apparently is back up and running now, except for no stops at Pentagon and National Airport. My younger daughter, who is in her second year at Georgetown University Law Center (two blocks from Union Station and two blocks from the Capitol building) had to catch a ride back to the Glenmont Metro station with another student when they were evacuated since she and her roommate had ridden the Metro in today (as usual).
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I understand part of the Pentagon has suffered a structural collapse.
ALL eastbound NJT rail and bus is suspended until further notice. All available railcars and buses will bwe used to evacuate Hoboken, Newark Penn and Newark Broad.
WCBS TV says ALL NYCT subway, PATH. LIRR, MetroNorth is out. NY Penn is also closed.
City and the nation is in a "shut down" state. No movements permitted for now. I know this is a hard thing to say, but all you can do is sit tight. The event appears to be concluded for now - it's a question now of clearing the streets, determining what is damaged and what is not, and then you might be able to get home. For now though, everything is locked down. Try to make the best you can ...
My personal sympathies are with all of course, but moving around is not possible at the moment ... Right now, you guys need to clear the communications lines and keep NYC's communications open and save the chatter for a few days ... no offense, but lines into and out of NYC are limited and idle chatter has to take a back seat for a few days ... PLEASE!
My cellphone is as dead as it gets, as for Internet I'm using cable.
Arti
I think that this shows that the internet is the indestructable beast that its millitary (sorry Al Gore) designers hoped it would be. Did not Dave say that his servers were in lower Manahattan. Phones might be out in some areas, but the backbone cable is alive and well, and judging from the speeds is not badly interupted by this disaster.
Elias
In my 25 years of living this is by far the worst disaster I have ever seen. Both of the twin towers of the WTC have collapsed, I saw it on live TV. It must be hell in lower Manhattan right now, the clouds of dust and smoke are shrouding it. I wonder if I'll ever be able to go to Chinatown again. I frequent the WTC concourse fairly frequently, and it easily could've been may. My prayers are with you all, and for those unfortunately at WTC.
All subways are suspended, NYC must be a mess. The subways that run beneath WTC, the 1,2,3,9,N,R,A,C,E will probably be out for quite some time and there is probably structual damage to the tunnels.
This is a nightmere. I was almost going to go to NYC today, and I wonder if LI Bus is running. I'll have to use the MVM's in Hempstead, that is if they are working and if the buses are even running. I have heard that the parkways in NYC (Queens) have also been shut down. The LI Bus routes going into Queens might be suspended. Also all TV stations are off the air except for channel 2, their transmitters WERE all atop WTC. I am very scared, this is a really, really mind numbing experience. I will be on later, that is if course the web and power is still up. Be safe and take care. My prayers are with you all.
l.i bus runs into queens but you can't go into manhattan.
It is too soon to even absorb what has just happened. We have just seen in the most horrible way what terrorism means--its purpose is not to murder the thousands that have tragically died, it is too inspire terror in a civilian population--that's us.
Terrorism is the means of the weak and cowardly because it exploits the openness of a free society. With a relatively few actions, terrorists are able to make themselves look as powerful as an army.
We need now to look for the continuity, not the choas. In the coming weeks and months we may find our society less free and especially our borders and travel a lot less open than we are accustomed to.
I don't want to waster bits given all this ... best advice is "communications" have been cut off from outside the city. It's locked down for obvious reasons.
What's needed right now is BLOOD if you're in close enough to the city that it will actually GET there ... if you have EMS skills, call in and volunteer. Leave them the HELL alone if you don't, and stay the hell out of lower Manhattan unless you're willing to help dig through the wreckage as part of a team.
Chances are, the subways are seriously damaged as a result of falling iron. Don't complain and don't ride the trains. The main thing is being able to call and volunteer your skills, and hopefully get to be USEFUL. If you can give blood and it has a chance of getting downtown, drop in and give it ... the MAIN thing is if you're not available, to help, stay OFF the phone lines, stay OFF the chatup groups, and just free up the bandwidth that goes into NYC that you can.
We can all get together again in a few days and share "war stories" if you wish (this *IS* war) ... but for now, hang up the phone, clue into what news is available (especially valid are BBC, and out of the US news organizations) and soak it in. Offer to help out. We're off to give blood for NYC, but beyond that, we'd ONLY get in the way. That can be worse than not being there directly.
There's thousands of folks who need a hand ... we should all do what we can do ... WHEREVER we are ... don't mean to come off "sappy" ...
question all and or some of the system ?? still operational & or service has been terminated ??
all, except possibly L and F service. from Manhattan to Brooklyn
so that means that all of the lines except the ones you posted are not running ??
yes, and those 2 lines are mentioned from a previous post here, not confirmed by any official news I heard, so even those might not be working right now.
that comfirms it the whole system is frozen down & shut down
I do believe that "A" service is running via the "F" line, probably via Sixth Avenue, between Jay Street and West 4th Street; I heard this on WCBS News Radio 88.
wayne
My prayers are with the thousands of New Yorkers who have been victims of a rotten dastardly and criminal attack by a filthy pack of human vermin. I hope those who were in the vicinity are not all dead, that many will survive this tragedy. We must calmly, if we can, find out who was responsible for this, and when we do must retaliate with a fury that now imbeds itself in many of our souls. Good God, I am mad. I can hardly control myself. I rail and wail for what has been done to my country. Please forgive me for rattling on, but I have to vent my anger. I can't even teach my students today.
The people who did this act are nothing more than cowards. They should ROT in hell.
#3 West End Jeff
Unfortunately they believe they will spend eternity in Paradise with a new virgin everyday
I'm no theologian, but I hope they're in for a big letdown when they reach the other side.
-- David
Chicago, IL
Too bad there isn't a way to bring `em back from the hereafter for a few minutes to tell their buddies "Don't fall for it -- it's a load of BS," before sending them back where they belong.
Well, I can tell you currently that there is a big battle going on in the Islamic community over such a misinterpretation of the Qur'an. That has melted down into two factions: the "if you kill yourself and take Americans with you, you'll get a first class ticket to Paradise" faction, and the "what the H*** are you doing" faction. In the middle, many millions of people who feel passionate about this, and are leaning towards one side or the other.
These lowest forms of life who committed this act should spend the rest of their lives in living HELL!! Look at what they did. How can any person in their right mind think that it is O.K. to bring down the World Trade Center and more importantly, snuff out thousands of innocent lives. This is the worst act of terrorism in modern history and perhaps in all of recorded history.
#3 West End Jeff
I know what you mean. I'm in total shock. I hope the persons responbile die a slow and agonizing death. My school has been shut down as well.
Fred, I am with you there. All we can do is pray for all of those close to us and those we don't know that they will all be safe.
Sincerely,
Fred Donaher
I can understand. I feel two emotions right now: Fear and Rage.
We all feel this tragedy. NYC wasnt attacked alone. D.C. wasn't attacked alone. This brutal display is an attack on every one of us. Somebody out there wants us to die and they're willing to die themselves to satisfy their goal. Terrorists of the worst kind are fanatics and thats what we're dealing with here.
These are canny, cagey people; and according to what I've heard there had to be some sort of government complicity i.e. harboring these people; aiding and abetting training; these guys HAD to be pilots in order to fly the planes directly into the towers and score two direct hits. This was a well-planned, well-organized and carefully orchestrated event, and what was our CIA doing? Sleeping? Now is the time to rid the world of these worms, once and for all.
wayne
We are all in the same boat on this. I was talking to my friend West End #3 Jeff and I couldn't even carry on a conversation with him because I'm still full of rage at what happened. My wife did tell me, though, that it will and has brought the country together. It certainly seems true on Subtalk where our daily cares have been altered by our concern for our fellow man and our subtalkers who might be in harm's way. I certainly don't want to hear that one of our website brothers was a victim. I'll keep my fingers crossed on that.
All you can feel is rage?
What about compassion for the thousands who lost their lives or think of the dedicated men and women in blue who are right now sweating and breathing in concrete dust trying to rescue or find people's loved ones in the rubble?
Rage can wait at the moment...
BMTman
Both rage, anger, compassion and a loss
Rage at the loss of innocent American lives and the destruction of a small part of a great city by a bunch of no-good rats. Can you dig that? Don't tell me you are not mad.
I have Internet service once again #4 Sea Beach Fred. I was speaking to a friend a few hours ago on the telephone and he said one of the reasons that this happened id because of the lax security practices of the U.S. airlines. There are so many holes in the security net that many people get through security that shouldn't. He said that it is possible that it could be the end of the U.S. airline system as we know it today.
#3 West End Jeff
He said that it is possible that it could be the end of the U.S. airline system as we know it today.
I doubt it will end, but I think it will have to undergo some pretty big changes. At the very least, I think all airport security functions, including screenings, should be handled by federal agents from now on. The use of sky marshalls and more restrictive access to the cockpit also goes without saying.
I have no idea this will impact current plans to expand O'Hare (and, by extension, our sound insulation program and my job security).
Finally, an on-topic question: Since we rely so heavily on air travel, the national economy has been crippled with the planes grounded. We have obviously put too many of our eggs in one basket here. Amtrak trains have been filled to capacity during this period, with crews at Chicago's Union Station and elsewhere adding as many cars to trains as they possibly can.
I wonder how all this, in the long term, will impact nationwide rail travel, particularly high-speed rail?
-- David
Chicago, IL
[I wonder how all this, in the long term, will impact nationwide rail travel, particularly high-speed rail? ]
The security measures will probaly add time on airports. Travel times from Boston to NYC to Washington were quite comparable on train vs. plain. That most likely will change in favor of trains.
Another question would be, who will pick up the tab for heightened security?
Arti
I think that train stations are probably going to have to put in metal detectors now and check luggage. I mean, if this is going to be the preferred method of mass travel, taking a train isn't really that safe compared to all the security at the airports. As much as I hate flying, I'd almost rather wait for hours to get through that then have any old person get on a train and wreak havoc.
At least nobody will ever be able to ram a train into the top of a skyscraper.
-- David
Chicago, IL
This is very true.
If someone wanted to they could ran a train into the base of boston's john hancock tower.
... or they could park a truck full of explosives anywhere, almost.
Arti
"If someone wanted to they could ran a train into the base of boston's john hancock tower."
Wouldn't they have to lay tracks first ?
It wasn't the jet planes that did in WTC #1 & #2, it was the jet fuel.
Bill "Newkirk"
[I think that train stations are probably going to have to put in metal detectors now and check luggage]
Let's not forget that trains have tracks and in significant routes power source can be shut off. To follow your logic we'd have to initiate similar procedures on subways and buses.
Arti
I think a lot of what I'm thinking is more nerves than what should be considered a real suggestion. I'm sure there will be a huge increase in overall security all over, train stations, bus stations, subways. Down here in DC, I've had people tell me that there have been police on the platforms with bullet proof vests and machine guns. I take Amtrak so much because I do hate flying and now that so many more people will probably be doing that too, I just hope that this can still be a decent alternative.
I just don't see any point to increase security in train stations as there would be plenty of opportunities along the ROW.
Arti
>>> I've had people tell me that there have been police on the platforms with bullet proof vests and machine guns. <<<
That is not really surprising when there is a terrorism alert. Although this is new to most Americans, it is common in Israel and in troubled times it is standard practice in Europe. When I was in Paris just prior to Algerian independence, the city faced terrorism from the right (the OAS) and the Algerians wanting independence. The cops directing traffic wore bullet proof vests and a sub machine gun slung on their backs. In Algerian neighborhoods, the police went along in six man patrols all armed with sub machine guns. It was a time when I felt safer not being near a policeman.
Tom
>>> To follow your logic we'd have to initiate similar procedures on subways and buses. <<<
When you see how many buildings now have metal detectors (mostly government buildings) it wouldn't surprise me to see some of our law and order types push for detectors on all inter city transportation. They already bring drug sniffing dogs onto Greyhound buses to check the passengers for drugs. A call for more security to fight terrorism would be popular now.
Tom
[They already bring drug sniffing dogs onto Greyhound buses to check the passengers for drugs. ]
And have they catched anyone but end users. Why wouldn't a drug dealer drive a car, the profits should be able to support that expense.
[A call for more security to fight terrorism would be popular now. ]
I woulnd't mind more security regarding air travel, but on land it doesn't seem to make sense, you'd have to secure the whole ROW for it to have any meaning.
Arti
What I meant was that it would be the end of the U.S. airline system as we know it today. Yes there would still be air travel but, it would be very different than it is now. I would expect that there will be far fewer planes in the air and there would be more or many more restrictions than there are now. There would be much tighter security. Most of all I would expect the airline system to be government regulated once again. I also hope that they seriously take into consideration expanding the availability of intercity passenger rail service can can be done at a reasonable cost though the railroad tracks in many areas would need to be upgraded. Improved intercity passenger rail service would take a great many planes out of the air and would be quite feasible for distances of up to 500 miles or even more between cities. You can even have transcontinental rail serviceavailable for those who need to get across the country but, time isn't of essence. A fringe benefit of traveling by rail is that you get to see the scenery which you cannot do from an airplane.
#3 West End Jeff
"Most of all I would expect the airline system to be government regulated once again."
The government regulates the airlines for safety, etc., and always has. The "deregulation" that occurred in the late 1970s was PRICE deregulation. Up to that point, the airlines (and the telephones, and the trucking industry) had to have their entire fare structure approved by the now-gone Civil Aviation Board, a separate agency from the FAA. Why would the horrible acts of last Tuesday require that the government start dictating airfares again?!
[these guys HAD to be pilots in order to fly the planes directly into the towers and score two direct hits]
Not necessarily. A ten year old can fly a plane very well once he takes over the controls IN-FLIGHT. It's taking off and landing that you require some skill to achieve.
BMTman
Astually DC was not attacked, The Pentagon is in Arlington Virginia, WAMTAQ continued running thru all this except they closed 2 staions Pentagon and National Airports on the Blue/Yellow Lines
That's not what I heard... my daughter tells me that the Red Line was suspended, when she (and the rest of the GULC community) were sent home shortly after noon she had to find alternate transportation back to Glenmont from Union Station.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I'm in the field office here at a fairly remote corner of O'Hare Airport. The whole airport is on the highest security alert, and emergency vehicles have been swarming the airside roads around here. All airside portions of all terminals have now been evacuated, and all flights into or out of the airport (and every other airport nationwide) have been grounded. We've been told that we may go home, but a few of us are sticking around to see if we can lend a hand over at the terminals, which are sure to be pure chaos.
Cars are being aggressively towed from the parking lots closest to the terminals, and the CTA Blue Line into the airport has been shut down. All trains are terminating at Rosemont. No word on what's happening down at Midway, but I assume similar measures are in effect.
In addition, the entire Chicago Loop has been shut down and is being evacuated as a precautionary measure. The Sears Tower, Hancock, federal buildings, Daley Center, and Amoco Building were all evacuated soon after the attack on New York.
Needless to say, things are pretty tense at the moment, and we're scared as hell.
Many of us have friends and relatives in New York City, and despite our light-hearted rivalry, we consider you a sister city to us and our prayers are with you. Chicago rose again after the Great Fire, and New York will rise again too.
God be with us today and in the days to come.
-- David
Chicago, IL
The ENTIRE US aviation system has been shut down for the first time ever. Int'l flights have been diverted to Canada. MARTA T/Os are announcing that only ticketed passengers are being allowed to enter Hartsfield. All parking lots have been closed and bomb sniffing dogs are everywhere.
My thoughts and prayers go to everyone in NYC.
Latest word: The CTA and Metra have thrown their timetables out the window, and are running at maximum capacity to get people out of the Loop. More details to come as they develop.
-- David
Chicago, IL
David, I agree with you all the way and pray for your safety.
Sincerely,
Fred Donaher
Roanoke, VA
I hope this hymn can be as helpful to some of you as it has been to me over the years.
-- David
Chicago, IL
Amazing grace! How sweet the sound
That saved a wretch like me!
I once was lost, but now am found;
Was blind, but now I see.
’Twas grace that taught my heart to fear,
And grace my fears relieved;
How precious did that grace appear
The hour I first believed.
Through many dangers, toils and snares,
I have already come;
’Tis grace hath brought me safe thus far,
And grace will lead me home.
The Lord has promised good to me,
His Word my hope secures;
He will my Shield and Portion be,
As long as life endures.
Yea, when this flesh and heart shall fail,
And mortal life shall cease,
I shall possess, within the veil,
A life of joy and peace.
The earth shall soon dissolve like snow,
The sun forbear to shine;
But God, Who called me here below,
Shall be forever mine.
When we’ve been there ten thousand years,
Bright shining as the sun,
We’ve no less days to sing God’s praise
Than when we’d first begun.
los angeles rail system still running
that is all for now
No train service due to power problems.
Buses operating above Houston St.
http://www.mta.nyc.ny.us/emergency/emernyct.htm
Arti
Thanks for posting that, Arti.
There's an update, most of the service is running, resembling night service.
Arti
London Stock Exchange and Canary Wharf towers evacuated as a precaution in the light of your horrific events. BBC1 has cut over to its 24hr news service and ITN News Direct radio is running this one fulltime. It's not just the USA anymore . . . . Stay strong, we there with you in spirit. Love IainFF
Thank you. May God bless you and yours.
Sincerely,
Fred Donaher
i was in 4 world trade center at the time of the 1st plane crash. my building is 9 stories tall and in between both towers. i felt the first crash at around 8:45, the building shook a little, there was a loud noise and lights went out. everyone rushes to the window and about 30 seconds after we heard that a stream of debris comes down for a good minute or 2. a constant stream of papers, ash, insulation, glass, steel. everyone panics and screams "get the f.uck out!" people are pushing and yelling and crying. we get to the basement of the world trade center where theres a mall and theres coffee and drinks spilled all over the floor from people dropping their s.hit and just running. i get outside and its CHAOS!! papers upon papers all over, like a ticker tape parade. i walk all over frantically looking for a payphone to call my family to tell them i'm ok. i get to wall st and wait on line for a phone. i'm finally next and then BAM BAM BAM a much bigger explosion i was like damnit i am out of here. i walk over to the water and to the staten island ferry so can take that home. paper, ash, building parts ALL OVER lowr manhattan, it gets in my eyes i can barely see. i decide to take the train home and i believe i got the last train home. i get home after shaking the entire ride and somehow not vommiting. i read how a blast went off on the ground and the 2 towers collapsed which i would think trapped or killed all the people stuck on the ground who had nowhere to go/didn't know where to go.
i don't wanna get into all the possible politics behind this but i will say this. the world as we know it is over, we are all at risk. i hate to be so negative but this isn't ww2 era, anywhere can be hit with a nuclear bomb from thousands of miles away, missing atomic bombs are in the hands of terrorists with no care of others lives. if we declare war i fully support it. there is no talking with these terrorists, there is no being nice anymore. the time to blast the s.hit out of these scumbags is now.
A report from someone who experienced it firsthand from the inside.
THank God you're safe and thank you for this sobering report. I can't begin to imagine how freaky it must have been to be right in the midst of this.
Hang in there, which is basically the only choice any of us have.
Amen Brother. As a survivor of this horrible day, I will never be the same. My experiences from the 44th fl. of 2WTC are identical to yours at 4.
I know people I care about never got out and I'm pissed.
Chris---did you put your experiences in writing? If so, post them.
I was five blocks away, my wife was three. If there is a positive thing to say, it is this. Knowing what I do about the city, the number of people working in the area, and how long it took to get people out in 1993, what actually happened, as horrible as it was, is a small fraction of what I BELIEVED had happened.
I believed that those in your situation would have all been killed. Not expecting the buildings to fall straight down, I believed many other buildings, more subway lines, more of Downtown period had been destroyed, along with the people in them. Asked to give my estimate of how many killed, I said 20,000 plus or minus 10,000, and prayed for under 10,000. I thought it might be worse.
I believed this for days afterward. Recall that the World Financial Center was on fire, it was thought that Liberty Plaza might collapse, that eight other terror planes were in the air, etc.
Firsthand account from someone who survived 9/11.(click the back link on the thread)
i don't wanna get into all the possible politics behind this but i will say this. the world as we know it is over, we are all at risk. i hate to be so negative but this isn't ww2 era, anywhere can be hit with a nuclear bomb from thousands of miles away, missing atomic bombs are in the hands of terrorists with no care of others lives. if we declare war i fully support it. there is no talking with these terrorists, there is no being nice anymore. the time to blast the s.hit out of these scumbags is now
I feel the same way even now, but I am thinking that we can just make do with what we have and enjoy what and who we still have.
The most important thing to keep in mind is the families of the poor victims. No one could have seen this.
I hope they find peace after all this horror.
Right here in Hempstead, I've seen frantic classmates trying to contact friends, family who were or may have been downtown. The country is under siege and I hope people keep their heads and focus on helping the victims and not seeking retribution. Life has a way of returning the favor.
Let's do what we can for those people...
Guiliani was just on Ch.2. He says there is limited subway service between Manhattan and the boroughs.
According to MTA
A, F and 7 service restoreed.
E expected to resume, they don't tell what the terminal is.
Arti
CBS radio says the A (presumably over the F to Brooklyn), the E, the F, and the 7 are running outbound only.
No word yet on structural damage?
I wouldn't expect there to be catastrophic structural damage,necessarily. The subway is relatively well protected. WTC appeared to collapse pretty well upon itself, though I could see debris spreading away from the base, and I could also see other buildings affected.
The E train's terminal is in the basement of the WTC. You know that it will be closed.
E to 2nd Ave.
Arti
Chambers-WTC station is slightly north and east of the north tower. Chambers-H&M is further north, up Church Street.
The stations that are in the primary line of fire are Cortlandt Street "N" and "R" and Cortlandt Street-WTC #1/9 as well as the PATH station.
wayne
I was not in the city at the time, but If I recall, the PATH station took ther major damage in 93.
Once again, when I can get in to work and see official info from Stations I will post.
It was the mezzanine level of the PATH station that got the worst of it in 1993. There was also some damage to the ceiling of the PATH terminal as well.
BTW Channel 7 has somehow got a cameraman down to what looks like Ground Zero. It looks like nothing less than Hiroshima on the afternoon of August 6, 1945. Mind you, this is a much smaller area. It also looks like about ten stories of one of the towers is still partially standing.
wayne
The N and R may be running on the bridge for quite some time.
They had an interview with some MTA person on NY1, he said that they don't know as it's not yet safe for the crews to go there.
Arti
As an African-American I am the last person who wants to see any ethnic group singled out for persecution but in light of today's attacks, I can only hope that the war we launch in response to today's catastrophe is A WAR OF EXTERMINATION. I saw the Twin Towers built and to see them destroyed has filled me with a horror and a rage, hitherto unknown. I want to see Bin Laden and all of his collaborators, DEAD! DEAD!! DEAD!!!. If this means wiping out whole countries so be it. We as a nation have been attacked, our soul has been pierced, and no action is too extreme to exact vengeance upon those who are responsible for the deaths of thousands upon thousands of our fellow citizens.
Eric Dale Smith
one word "AMEN"
EDS,
I agree with you. And when the shock of all this subsides, all America will feel the same rage.
The question is what happens next ? A nuclear strike ?
When the USSR was disarming their nuclear missles, what happened to the warheads ? Did Osama Bin Laden buy them from Russia who is hard up for money ?
We can't roll over and play dead, they are bound to strike again somehow. And those hijacked jets, was airport security breached and the jets hijacked ? Or was airline employees of middle east origin "in" on this ?
I question why so many people of middle east origin are here in NYC and elsewhere. Are they here to enjoy the fruits of freedom and liberty, OR ARE THEY HERE AS PLANTS FOR TERRORIST PLOTS ?
Bill "Newkirk"
PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE!
Don't start on the xenophobia train! That's the last thing we need.
If you fan the flames of fear, you start a fire you won't be able to stop.
Let the rage be towards the inhuman cowards who did this act, not towards those who simply look like them.
Amen.
I second that. Keep in mind that some of those so-called "terrorists" are at my school. And I'm still here typing, which leads me to suspect that propaganda.
Don't get me wrong, now. Whoever did this is going to (and should) pay dearly. It's just that we should go after the entire race that they come from. Because there are ample historic examples of how such hunts became outrageous.
Now matter HOW deplorable the events of today's tragedy are, some things are INDISPUTABLY based on the sheer laws of UNIVERSAL PHYSICS and hence TRUTH----we CANNOT bring back to life those who died, we CANNOT undue the destruction to the material effects, and no matter HOW vengeful our emotionally-controlled human response pattern makes us, any form of retaliation will NOT change things. Those who believe otherwise need to be reminded of another UNIVERSAL CONSTANT--TWO WRONGS NEVER MAKE A RIGHT!
What a strange thing life is.
Tunnel Rat.
I suppose we should drop this in the lap of the United Nations so those jackasses with earplugs can condemn this action. I would love to see that useless building imploded since it serves no useful purpose.
This all goes back to the the assassination of RFK and the slaying of the Israel athletes at the Olympics in 1972.
WE LET THEM DO IT AGAIN AND AGAIN.......WE STAND BY AND DO NOTHING.
We have to do something now. We have to teach them a lesson. Otherwise, there will be more destruction and death elsewhere and we will be shocked.
This time two wrongs do make a right. NUKE 'EM.
Bill "Newkirk"
Wrong. Allowing these acts to go unpunished insures that they will recurr. It is thanks to thinking such as yours that we appeased Hitler in the 30's. We will punish those responsible. Them and all those who support and aid them.
Alan Glick
"TWO WRONGS NEVER MAKE A RIGHT"!
NY and Washington DC were attacked in an act of war.
And what is your response? "Two wrongs never make a right".
Why do incidents like this, always bring out moronic posts?
>>> Why do incidents like this, always bring out moronic posts? <<<
Because you continue to post. :-)
Tom
Well believe me, this hasn't exactly been your finest hour either.
Let the rage be towards the inhuman cowards who did this act, not towards those who simply look like them.
Turnabout it fair play. If they want to kill out citizend we should kill their citizens.
Expecially when their citizens aid and applaud such acts.
Alan Glick
"Turnabout it fair play. If they want to kill out citizend we should kill their citizens"
"Innoscent civilians" went out with mass circulation newspapers and centralized economies.
Isn't the question still, who are they?
Arti
Stop a minute and remember back to Oklahoma City. The immediate reaction was of foreign terrorists. The sad reality was that it was one of our own citizens. At this time no one or group has laid claim to this. Don't go off half-cocked , making accusations that may be false.
Anybody ever read the Turner Diaries? The "Organization" acted exactly this way - constant destruction of the infrastructure and cities in the United States. That was an internal militia determined to overthrow the government and establish their own rule, which they succeeded in doing.
Just keep in mind that many underground anti-government militias exist in the United States and it is just as likely that today's acts of terrorism were caused by them.
The fact is we won't know for sure for a while.
At this time anything is possible -- at least one Arabic man from Tulsa was stopped and detained after the Olkahoma City bombing before McVeigh was arrested -- but the Turner Diary followers have never shown any sort of ability to co-ordinate an effort like this -- hijcking two planes from two different airports and crashing them within 10 minutes of each other in New York, and 40 minutes later in Washington.
On the other hand, this corordinated hijacking strongly resembles what happened with the "Black September" hijackings back in 1970, when three or four planes were commandeered at the same time, flown to the Middle East by Palestinian terrorists and then blown up on the runways. So going back past history, we already know the Middle East terrorists are capable of pulling off such and act; if it turned out to be internal terrorists, this will show far more coordination than when three men and a Ryder truck full of fertilizer did to the Murrah Federal Building six years ago.
Oh, come on. This is no reason to hate a race or nationality as a whole; wherever the culprits are from, they just happen to be bad apples. God does not discriminate; he makes cretins in ALL backgrounds. If a Black man shoots your family, it is NO reason to hate all Black people. The same goes for Middle Eastern people. All that matters is that the culprits themselves are dealt with. Let's not be pointing fingers at each other. Erase the hate.
Bill
I have said this in several other posts. I AM AGAINST THE DEATH PENALTY. I AM AGAINST BLIND RETRIBUTION, yet today's attacks go beyond the realm of any event in human history. One of our greatest national symbols has been destroyed, another severely damaged, and as such WE MUST ACT! Nuclear retribution is the only fit punishment for these bastards. THEY MUST BE BLOWN CLEAR OFF THE FACE OF THE EARTH and if that means making whole nations a sea of glass, then so be it!
Eric Dale Smith
Tell Afghanistan to hand over Bin Laden or Russia gets the GREEN LIGHT to handle matters in ANY way they see fit.
Clinton should have done that Eight years ago.
Very true. I hope Bush does not mishandle the situation. I really do.
He'll most likely turn the cruise missles lose on the Middle East, just like everybody else has done in the past.
It's going to be more than cruise missiles once they figure out who did it and where they are. Probably not nuclear, but the response it going to be something akin to the Gulf War assault on Iraq.
I would have zero problems with a nuclear response, and I am a pacifist (or was until about 9:30 this morning). The response must be so overwhelming that no one will ever think of doing this type of thing again.
That's what I thought. Just like his father did 10 years ago. Funny how history can repeat itself.
Amen, but I (though I am very pro-Soviet) do not think this should be left to anyone but America. The President should give them no more than 72 hours to hand over Bin Laden, failing to do so will result in a devistation that will make Hiroshima look like a walk in the park.
"Tell Afghanistan to hand over Bin Laden or Russia gets the GREEN LIGHT to handle matters in ANY way they see fit."
From a purely historical perspective, I doubt that Russia would do any better with Afghanistan than they did 15 years ago.
Whatever we decide to do to these inhuman barbarians, we had better have the gall to do it ourselves. And, if I know this country, we will.
God Bless America.
Strangely, somebody bombed Kabul last night according to CNN, but no one is admitting they did it. The US did issue a denial of military action. Could it be the Russians?
It was the Afghan resistance to the Taliban raining missles on Kabul. Their leader had apparently been asassinated by the Taliban the same day we were attacked, and the missles were in retaliation.
-- David
Chicago, IL
>>> It was the Afghan resistance to the Taliban raining missles on Kabul. <<<
From reading the posts the past day, I guess the resistance are terrorists that we all must condemn. But wait a minute, isn't the Taliban the organization supporting Bin Laden? Somehow it gets pretty complicated when you only look at things in black and white.
Tom
And for you apparently, it means hand wringing and doing nothing by paralysis by analysis. Fortunately, there are those of us who see a problem and want to end it.
And moreover, the guy the Taliban offed was an informant for the US, so he could have had info on the plot but didn't relay it in time.
I had always felt that the only thing that prevented attacks like this was fear of nuclear retaliation. Failure to act now would only invite more attacks. We should declare war on Afganistan and start with a nuclear strike. Heck, it dosen't even have a legitimate governmet in charge.
The sad truth.
Today many people at my job were crying. I said that we should wipe out the entire Middle East. Someone said, "What about all the innocent people?" How come when someone bombs the US it's "casualties," but if we bomb someone they're "innocent people." Anyone who allows their country to be lead by a ruthless dictator deserves to die. 'Nuff said.
I understand the reasons why every one is troubled by today's event. However people are jumping to conclusions that may well be false. Everyone seems to think that the people responsible were Arabs, the media and Hollywood has done a good job to make everyone think that way. However many people thought the same thing about Okalahoma city and it turned out the person responsible was from Buffalo. Saying that the people responsible are Arab is as stupid as saying they must be from Buffalo.
While not all Arabs are personally responsible, certain Arabs have already confessed.
The reason everyone thinks this was done by Arabs is because of the history of Arab terrorist acts. Who else but Arabs can be seen on TV right now rejoicing over the deaths of thousands of innocent American civilians? Who else but Arab terrorists have the ability to conduct simultaneous hijakings and attacks of this nature?
Will you still be blaming the media when we get proof of Arab complicity? Or will it then be time to blame America and/or Israel?
If the media commonly portrays the Arab world as cowardly terrorists it's one of the few things the media gets right.
The perpetrators and their hosts will pay the most extreme penalty for this act. Save your support for these animals for the time when they will truly need it.
Alan Glick
Is there anyone out there who thinks Israel is wrong now?
No.
Eric D. Smith
True.this sort of thing has been happening to them for years. They caught us nappin.
Is there anyone out there who thinks Israel is wrong now?
I don't actually think that has much if anything to do with the conflict between Israel and the Palestinians. Osama Bin Laden is the number one suspect, and if it really was him that's proof of my point. He sees the world as a war to the death between Islam and the West, and the Israeli-Palestinian stuff is just a sideshow of little importance.
I agree -- a terror plot like this had to have taken months, if not more, in planning, and bears no relationship to anything that has gone on in the last few weeks in the Middle East (despite what Katie Couric said this morning while talking to a Palestinan terrorism expert on the "Today Show"). Whether it was bin Laden or some other terrorist, this would have been planned no matter what the U.S. did in the Middle East because they see the U.S. and the Judeo/Christian Western world in particular, as the greatest obsticle to the warped type of Islam they want to dictate to the world.
Whether it was bin Laden or some other terrorist, this would have been planned no matter what the U.S. did in the Middle East because they see the U.S. and the Judeo/Christian Western world in particular, as the greatest obsticle to the warped type of Islam they want to dictate to the world.
This is all just speculation on my part, but another group that might deserve a bit of scrutiny in the upcoming days would be that Japanese bunch, I can't remember its name, that perpetrated the nerve gas attack on the Tokyo subway a few years back (see - on topic!) It has been speculated that they detonated a small nuclear device deep in the Australian outback in the early 1990's. While today's attacks obviously weren't nuclear, the fact that they were able to build and test a nuclear device, if indeed that's actually what happened, shows the sort of organization and discipline needed to pull off these highly coordinated attacks. And the Tokyo incident shows a complete disregard for human life.
There are other terrorists groups around the world that are sophisticated enough to have done this. The cockpit voice recorders on the planes in Pittsburgh and at the Pentagon should be the first ones recovered, and could give us a better idea what nationality of people may have been involved, if that wasn't mentioned already by some of the people with cell phones who were able to call 911 before the crashes.
The callsfromCell phonesstated they wereMiddleEastern Types
Agreed. He iswantedformurderinhisown country Saudi Arabia,and has a contract out onhimby his own cousinsthe Royal Family
Not all Muslims are Arabs, and not all people in the Mid East, believe it or not a lot of the terrorist are Iraniansm,Afghanis and Pakis, who are not Arabs. But you can believe the Mid East Mind that this was done. If it was not for their oil, we should have destroyed Iran over 20 years ago
It's true MOST Arabs are selfish, evil, greedy bastards. In my own personal experience I have experienced this first hand when ever my Mom's car broke down and we had to go to the neasest station, and it was owned by Arabs. They were mean to my Mom, telling her that she oughtta remove her car from the property even though it wouldn't run. They wouldn't even help her. But they will help those with fancy cars.
Then I have a good friend who has an Arab wife, and she will be violent and throw things to get what she wants, because all she wants is money. He is now considering divorce, since her and her family hate him because he is American.
Now I'm not saying there aren't good people from the Middle East out there, because there are, I know a few. But there is a common belief among Arabs that America is evil, and that money is everything. And that they would kill themselves or others, just to get their point across. I'm very sorry if I offended anyone, but I just had to get this out.
You don't have apologize for what you've said on this post.
Because you are right about one thing. Arabs are truely selfish, evil, and greedy SOBs since the day their so called ancestors were borned. Moreover, their attitudes are truely far more disgusting than a human waste itself. It been very frustrating to deal with these low-life, cold-blooded, inhuman dirtbags. After what happened today, I definitely think these inhuman scumbags were the perpetratiors in destroying World's beautiful and memorable high rise structure.
Frankly, Its far more dissapointing that we're allowing these disgusting aliens in this country.
See my response to QTrain7's original post.
Seth
"You present No evidence whatsoever in this view"
Oh really Seth! then who were responsible for the 6 lives in World Trade Center back in 1993.
Seem to me, you do support the Arabs on one hand , and on the other, you do agreed with QTrain7's that Arabs are selfish evil bastard.
Why are you so afraid of QTrain7's and my insults over Arab? Or maybe you did'nt really meant to say that Arab were Selfish and Evil!
Which sides are you really in?
You're utterly incoherent.
I disagreed with your and QTraindash7's characterization of Arabs. I will continue to disagree with it. I do not disagree that some terrorists who happened to be Muslim Arabs attempted to destroy the WTC in 1993, but I'd rather not leap to a conclusion about this disaster, and I don't think anyone else should either. Nor do I think you should be trying to insult me unless you can get it out in a coherent fashion.
Seth
"It's true MOST Arabs are selfish, evil, greedy bastards."
You present NO evidence whatsoever to support this view. Rather, you write the most despicable post I've seen here yet. Consider, it's "true" that MOST Jews are selfish, evil, greedy bastards who eat Christian babies. Your post is equivalent to what I just said. Your post makes me sick.
Seth
I know. Q7's post was wrong. Totally. So was ExpressM's. But right now everyone is angry. What happened was wrong, and very likely the action of sick terrorists from the middle east. The slaughter of innocents is just sickening. After seeing what I saw today (see my other post about lower manhattan) I too am right now very angry.
I'd usually be the first to try and stop any kind of racist crap like that. But, right now, chalk it up to anger and sadness.
I send my condolences to anyone who may have lost someone in this utterly idiotic attack.
It's not all about being racists to one particular group. It all about anger and frustration. Today tragedies was total devastation for everyone not just NYC itself, but for the entire nation who witnesses this horrible scene. Remember back 1993. The person that took the six lives and nearly took down the entire WTC was Arabs Man (forgot his name). Great thing, that he was caught and were proscuted. Even though man is dead or in jail. I still blame these people for today tragedy. Why? For one, I do know that Arab hate us as much just as we hate them. Two, if they really want WTC crushed to the ground, they would had done that in 1993. It turn out that their plan had failed at that time and one their so called heroes were caught in the butt. Instead of failing again, they came up with an better idea which they used the 5 passanger airlines with innocense passagers and pilots as a weapon to destroyed WTC. What make u think its not the Arab who was responsible for today's events? They've done it once! One thing I do know about Arab's personalities was that when it come to a failure for these people. They won't give. They make their plan in success until they die. And also, I do know that there is consequences when you mess with them.
After what happed today anger boiled to 1000F Degree. My cousin was a WTC employee. He nearly lost his life. Give one good reason why I should'nt blame these people for what they've done?
What happened today makes me mad too. You said to think of your cousin, who barely escaped. But what about the kid who just lost mommy? Or the employee who just went to work and was on the floor that was mowed down by a plane? Or, the one who was injured in the collision, and had to merely sit there, trapped, but conscious until the building collapsed?
I can only imagine the terror they experienced...
I just pray that they died instantly and didn't suffer. Regardless, they are now at peace.
-- David
Chicago, IL
My angry wasn't just boiled over to the fact that my cousin's life were nearly taken by the low-life scums. My anger was based the fact that no one have done a thing to stop these f****** terrorism attacking our country and our people. Let me tell u something. On the day when these low-life terrorism were being sent to electric chair. I will be throwing a slumber party @ Time Square and Invite all of our fellow New Yorker. This party will be named "Justice have served"
You are forgetting something - these terrorist types have nothing to lose by doing what they are doing, they actually want to die, and if they die while killing as many of us as possible, they believe that they are winners. There is no arguing with fanatics, no matter where their origin is.
Those people who blame any religious group should realize that in all religions that I know of it is a sin to commit suicide, and would result in damnation.
Speaking of that If the Palenstinians are responsible then the US will do DAMNATION onto them
The reports on ABC list the highjackers were of Saudi and Egyption origin, not Palistinean. Thism is NOT to say that those countries were involved. We have our own anarchists as has been shown in recent riots around the country.
If not Arabs andMiddle Eastern Extremist.90 pct ofactsof Terrorise came from those people in the last 30years ormore, or were trained by them+
yeah, and alot of 'em got training right here at home. What a friggin' shame...
Well, in that case. President Bush will resolution to Stop these losers invading our country one less terrorism in US = Million lives saved.
To the victim who did'nt make it. My heart is with U. Until justice is served may u rest in peace.
President Bush will "fine a resolution"
Excuse my word use.
Did you see those disgusting Palestinians dancing in the streets when they received news of that tragedy that hit us yesterday? Those people I have every right to despise and I do---UNCONDITIONALLY.
AMEN, As I toldyopu when you were here.Israel,MUST CLOSE IT S BORDERS to the Palestinians.Do not allow any of them in the country.There are plenty of Thais and Filipinos can be brought like they do elsewhere in as contract labor, to replace Palestinane worker, 90pct unemployement in Gaza and West Bank,let the Arab Countries support them. I doubt it since they were thrown out of The Gulf States due to their support of Iraq 10 years ago.
You could have saved your breath because you were preaching to the choir
The evidence is all around for those with open minds to see. Show me a Jew who eats Christian babies -- you cannot. Show me an Arab who jumps with glee at the thought of thousands of innocent civilians murdered -- you can see this right now, turn on your TV and open your eyes.
It is your ignorance of the historical record that is sickening.
Alan Glick
"You present NO evidence whatsoever to support this view. Rather, you write the most despicable post I've seen here yet. Consider, it's "true" that MOST Jews are selfish, evil, greedy bastards who eat Christian babies. Your post is equivalent to what I just said. Your post makes me sick.
Seth"
Anecdotal evidence is very possibly worse than no evidence at all.
And yes, the reaction of some Palestineans was utterly dispicable. How you conclude that this means all Arabs are horrible people is entirely beyond me though.
What historical record am I ignoring (I really don't understand what you mean)?
Seth
I had hoped that you (Seth) were being sarcastic when you posted your remarks about Jews. Apparently others have other views. Perhaps it's time you clarify what your intent was and what your true beliefs are.
TD
Note that I put "true" in quotes. I was not being sarcastic, though--I was trying to make a point about stereotypes.
Seth
Are you deliberately being evasive? Do you believe what you wrote about Jews?
I put "true" in quotes in order to show that I know that what I said was false. I was trying to make a point about the idiocy of stereotyping, and I apologize if it wasn't clear.
Seth
That was my original impression. Thank you for the clarification...
His point was that what he said was not true, which is why when you read his post it has "true" in quotation marks. It was to disprove the remarks about Arabs.
I think those were reruns of Ppl celebrating in 1996..
CNN is racist.
The Associated Press filed a protest with Palestinian authorities on Wednesday over threats made against their freelance camerman for taking videos of the celebrations. AP's headquarters is up on 51st St. at Rockefeller Center if you want to go argue with them.
More crude lies by anti Israel-anti America apologists. God Bless America - Yisrael am Chai!!!!!!
Not sure I understand all the stone throwing. I haven't seen any posts that say we shouldn't get the perps who did this. All I have seen are posts that say we shoudn't let America be held up by half the world as just like the scum. Wether we like it or not almost half the world is Muslim, and will judge our actions. With the horror of this act, much of the world is behind us. We shouldn't screw up the oppurtunity to unite the world instead of treading on the edge of the depths of world war.
Wether we like it or not almost half the world is Muslim, and will judge our actions.
Hardly. Muslims account for maybe 20% of the world's population.
Whatever. Still a pretty high mumber.
OK..Maybe the ppl we've alienated in the Balkans were celebrating too. (Remember Serbia)
Christian Orthodox Mind you..
They're the world's largest religous group, in any event. Besides, the rest of the world will also judge our actions (China, for instance).
Seth
China has her own terrorists (Uighur Turks)...
that she needs to clean up..hopefully America would help...
Apparently they are having additional problems with their sw border as well.
You mean the Tibetan Terrorists? No the peaceful kind of Tibetan.
Yeah..thats true.
But I think the most virulent kind is the Islamic Uighur kind thats bankrolled by Bin Ladin.
Do you mean to say there's a world outside the US?!?! Gasp, shock, horrors--you anti-American, you. (Just a tad sarcastic--forgive me, I couldn't resist.)
Although, in all seriousness, this could be a really good thing, if China's on our side (and if we do it right, of course).
Seth
Yeah I've been Monitoring the Chinese Military Forum (I'm Chinese)
The concensus is that we Hope China will stand with the US.
Terrorism is a worldwide problem..and collective help to eradicate it is needed.
That brings the most populated nation in the world somewhat into our camp. What an oppurtunity to create a world coalition against terrorism.
>>> The concensus is that we Hope China will stand with the US. <<<
We should try to avoid flinging any missiles at Chinese embassies if we want their support.
Tom
More jobs for the mapmakers. Got to keep them up to date!
Yeap I'm Chinese..
But i follow Orthodox Christianity...
and I still question American Foreign Policy.
But my ArchBishop told me to forgive you for Bombing poor Serbia..
Comments from a Letter by Archbishop Chrysostomos to a Friend
Concerning the Terrorist Attack on the U.S.
* * * *
From the friend: There is also the thought floating around that the Tuesday attack on the U.S. was actually retribution, perhaps Divine, for our (i.e., the U.S.'s) attacks on Serbia and Iraq. As in 'What goes around, comes around.'
His Eminence's reply:
Dear [name withheld]:
May God bless you.
Like any country, the U.S. has made mistakes, not the least of which being our ill-advised and tragic action in Kosovo. In Iraq, I would argue, the insanity and militancy of its leader, who has murdered and oppressed many of his own people and various minorities, certainly makes U.S. action there less problematic. Nonetheless, we have never deliberately targeted civilians, have never acted out of bigotry passing as religious fervor, and have never resorted to the use of civilians as weapons (which is just how one must describe the the use of civilian aircraft as bombs). I think that it is true that countries pay for their mistakes, though this undoubtedly occurs as God so deigns and not according to the whim and will of vicious, fanatic terrorists who have no respect for human life, whether their own or that of others. Moreover, any country's payment for mistakes is surely mitigated by regret and by the good that it does. In this sense, it is undeniable that the United States has shown regret for its mistakes, has often publicly apologized for wrong policies, and has done much, sometimes at great sacrifice, to help suffering people and countries throughout the world. It can, indeed, be as proud of its goodness as it can regret its errors and wrong policies.
The terrorism which we have witnessed recently is not payment for anything. This is Islamic fundamentalism at its very worst and represents the actions of the very same individuals, after all, whom the U.S. (however wrongly) aided by its support of the Albanian Moslem terrorists who now rule in Kosovo. These kinds of terrorists are people who, whether aided by bad and misguided U.S. policy in Kosovo or resentful of U.S. policy in Israel, believe that it is an act of sacred dedication to kill non-Moslems, and especially Christians. It is truly frightening to contemplate that such people and such a religion exist, but they do. The fall of Byzantium and the invasion of Western Europe and "ethnic cleansing" by Moslem armies in the fifteenth century are historical facts that bear witness to the militant threat of Islamic fundamentalism and it age-old desire to see the demise of Christianity and the spread of its tenets. The number of Christians martyred by Islamic fundamentalists in Greece and the Balkans, alone, is staggering.
I am sure beyond doubt that there are good Moslems who decry this kind of fanaticism. We must acknowledge this and not face Islam, despite the atrocities which its intolerant followers have visited on Christianity historically, with intolerance. We must also admit, sadly enough, that there are misguided Christians (and Orthodox among them, I am sorry to admit) who would, if given the chance, engage in these same kinds of vicious and horrifying acts against those of other religions. But the Islamic fundamentalist, in acting against innocent people, is doing so in fidelity to his religion's disdain for the Christian or non-Moslem "infidel." He is assured Paradise for his acts of barbarity and for his violence and murder. On the other hand, a Christian who acts in such a way, whether a fundamentalist or not, is acting against the very principles of Christianity, wherein peace and the love of our enemies merit us Paradise. Whereas militant Islam can elevate suicide to martyrdom and the murder of innocents to holy acts, there is nothing in Christianity to justify the murder of innocent people by suicide (which is an apt description of what happened Tuesday in America); rather, suicide and murder are reckoned heinous sins against God and humanity.
These thoughts, with which I suspect that you agree, help us to put the issue of "just retribution" in better context. I think that my thoughts are logical and correct.
Least Among Monks,
+ Archbishop Chrysostomos
Oh, so China has a Moslem problem along with India, The Philippines, Israel, Russia, The Balkans, etc Maybe the civilized world has to get together and put them on notice that their uniquely cowardly way of asserting their political positons will not be tolerated any longer. Islam has given much to the world. And the Moslems deserve justice and prosperity. but terrorism can not be tolerated anywhere.
"Oh, so China has a Moslem problem along with India, The Philippines, Israel, Russia, The Balkans, etc"
The Balkans? Can you explain?
On a side note, terrorist bombings have a long history, according to the Encyclopedia Britannica, for one, "Terrorism has been practiced throughout history and throughout the world." This means that the "uniquely cowardly" way that a minority of Muslims "assert their political positions" really isn't so unique (which doesn't, of course, make it acceptable). Anyhow, the Encyclopedia goes on to talk about a whole lot of groups who've used terrorism, including, but not limited to, Greeks, Romans, Italians, Israelis, Americans, Palestinians, French, Peruvians, Germans, Puerto Ricans, Japanese, and Algerians.
Seth
Absolutely. The Muslims, Arabs, Palestinians, etc. did not invent terrorism.
Who said I was anti-American?
The Far from the truth.
I was just as shocked to see the palestinians celebrating, but let's not forget the dirt our own government does regarding terrorism and the endorsement of it. That doesn't give whoever is responsible for this cowardice a free pass, but if people really knew what the hell our government is up to overseas, what it terms "collateral damage", our own people would raise all sorts of hell. I think now we should re-think this "world's policeman" role that our government thinks we must play, especially if it turns out there was Arab/Palestinian involvement in this incident. To me, if the Israelis and Palestinian people aren't willing to see how senseless this violence is, then valuable American resources (money, equipment, manpower) can be put to much better uses.
My thoughts and prayers are with all of you and all affected by this tragedy.
Darnell
Good post.
"but if people really knew what the hell our government is up to overseas, what it terms "collateral damage", our own people would raise all sorts of hell."
Well Golly, why don't you tell all us country bumkins what you know that we don't know. While you are at it, why don't you tell us how you got so smart. Seems a guy like you, with so much inside information should be sitting next to Larry King or Ted Koppel instead uf us poor ignorant bastards here on subtalk.
I wasn't trying to be some know-it-all or proclaim myself as an expert, but I do try to go beyond what is comunicated in the mainstream media. Well since you suggested it, you must have connections, why don't you book me on Nightline?
Some people just have to be smart asses whenever possible.
I think you forgot to take your lithium this morning.
:-))
Do we as a nation think we're so special ? in the whole scheme of things?
WE NOW HAVE ANOTHER MOLD-WAD THAT'S CREPT OUT OF A HOLE IN THE GROUND....ANOTHER ONE TO BE IGNORED...THAT'S THREE....AND COUNTING
Too bad.
because you are blind to Politics.
and not world savvy.
Well done, even if everyone doesn't agree. Both sides will continue to be heard I'm sure.
Nightrider..Chalk it up to "Sheeple" affect.
They are still asleep.
They do not dare question the USA...
Do you question the 5,000 body bags at the WYC morgue too? Just wondering.
No..
But I DO question some foreign policies that the US has...
Like supporting the KLA against Serbia.
The Occupation of Kosovo not Kosova.
along those lines.
For the 45 years after World War II, think of the U.S. as Coke and the Soviet Union as Pepsi (or vice versa, depending on your particluar cola prefrence), and all the other nations of the world are your restaurants, schools, stadiums, etc. and Coke wants it's product in there and Pepsi wants theirs in there -- so much so that they take to doing things that don't seem to make much sence like buying a movie studio (Coke) for theater sales and porduct placement when you have no idea how to run a movie studio, or buying chicken, pizza and taco restaurants so you'll have a captive clientele for your drink, even if you're clueless about running chicken, pizza and taco restaurants.
That's pretty much what we and the Soviets did -- lots of stupid things over 45 years while trying to acquire as many nation clients-allies as possible and keeping them out of the other guy's hands. But was there a moral equivalency between the U.S. and Russia? Were we about the same as Coke and Pepsi, with maybe just a little bit more corn syrup in one, but otherwise no difference?
No. In most cases, not all, the U.S. on the right side of the major international issues. We're we pure as the driven snow? Hell no, but if you're looking for Utopia in the world from any country, it's not there, it's never been there and it's never going to be there.
Until someone invents the matter transporter so we can get Mr. Scott to beam Osama bin Laden right into Rudy Giuliani's office so he can punch his lights out, the only way to get these people is going to be to go in, deal with some low lifes and if military action is needed, kill some people and destroy some things along the way. Trust me, Osama would do the same thing to everyone of us on this board if he had the chance, but we haven't blown up 6,000 people in three different locations with four airplanes.
Supporting the KLA didn't earn the US any brownie points, did it?
Not to me..
But then again I supported Hellas and Serbia...
and it certainly didn't earn any browny points in my book when America blew up the Chinese Embassy..But then again it was "a Bad map, collateral damage.." :-\
Absolutely Albania...
You can also tack in Turkey.
You know my whole outlook on life changed during the Rape of Serbia/Kosovo '99..
I no longer go blindly following and clapping to all of Americas Foreign Policies. 1999 was the year of my wake up call.
I am Orthodox Christian BTW. That explains why my support was with Serbia in her time of need.
The U.S. was supporting European realpolitik. Look who the Secretary of State was. Bill Clinton thought (and so do a lot of his supporters) that he, Mr. Rhodes Scholar, was the Genius of the Western World. But he thought a classic European ethnic conflict was equivalent to a U.S. civil rights struggle. Or maybe he didn't really think that. But that's the way he presented it.
In his studies at Oxford, I guess they never taught him why the term "Balkanization" entered the language.
But try not to Demonize the U.S. It bemuses me that people talk about what "we" did in Vietnam. Or in Grenada. Or Haiti (historically or recently). In a true democracy, governments change and policies change. Sometimes the nation's leadership makes foolish decisions or even crass ones. True democracies like the U.S. try to self-correct. If success has been messy, consider that this by far the longest-lasting and strongest republican government in the world.
We live in a very strange time, in which we try to reinterpret all of history through the lens of This Very Minute, being asked to apologize for decades- to centuries-old wrongs, even as we ignore similar wrongs in the modern world. What hubris!--the people who think the world leadership and peoples of 2001 are so perfect that they can judge so pefectly!
But the nation goes on. As to "former Yugoslavia" "we" seemed to think that Russia, its allies and its concerns were irrelevant. The current "we" in Washington seems to think differently.
As one of my friends emailed me to say...
American Foreign Policy has come home to Bite us in the ass!
The law of unintended consequences comes back to bite every nation, and since no one in the U.S. government has seen fit to hire Madame Cleo to work her tarot card reading powers for the good of the U.S. State Department, we will always be able to look back and second guess decisions -- in this case going all the way back to the Balfour Decision by British PM David Lloyd George in 1918 that set the stage for the Israel partition 29 years later and all the events since then.
But there are some cases where there is no doubt that we're right and they're wrong, and this happens to be one of them -- Any nation that would let terrorists get away unbroken and unpunished after slaughtering 5,000 people is a nation of fools, because the next time, the terrorists are not going to be so leinant.
You're assuming that these people would like us otherwise.
I'm saying we should stop supporting other countries internal fights.
Be Isolationist.
I'm afraid we can't be. The world pot continues to boil with or without us.
Clinton was probably a "smarter" leader than Bush, but I think Bush is wiser. Somestimes super-intelligent leaders are so super-intelligent that they're wrapped up in themselves and think every decision they make is right just because they're so brilliant and all.
It's one thing to look at a situation anywhere in the world and ask "does America have a vital interest here, what is it, and how can be advance it?" and quite another to look at a country and say "There are only two kinds of people here. Good guys and bad guys. I don't know if the U.S. has a vital interest here, but if I were the Commander-in-Chief I'd bomb the hell out of the bad guys. Hey, I am the Commander-in-Chief!
Paul and the rest of you guys out there, I just had a thought that somewhat surprises me because I'm pretty convinced that Oman bin Laden is behind all this. But suppose, Saddam Hussein beat him to the punch. Suppose he is behind it? Or suppose Kadafi, Hussein and bin Laden are all in this together? Don't get me wrong for a minute, I want the bastards that did this wiped out, but as Metro=Houston put it the other day, let's be sure we know who the hell is behind this. It may take a few more days to sort things out, but is there any one out there who would not rather be safe than sorry.? Remember this, no matter who we take out, civilians are going to be killed and probably by the thousands. We want to make sure we get the guilty parties, too. It is a barbaric business, isn't it?
Of course it's important to know who exactly is behind this and I wonder why we assume the government doesn't know. They don't tell us everything they know.
You want a kick in the teeth? Two of the suicide pilots were actively wanted by the FBI as associates of bin Laden. They bought their tickets on the doomed flights under their real names. Great intelligence we have, hmm?
As to getting the "right people"--yes, absolutely. Even in war you try to avoid innocents whenever possible. But we're talking about a terrorist network, and this is war, not a criminal investigation. Any organization working against us is fair game in a war situation.
When Japan atatcked us at Pearl Harbor, we declared war on Japan. Germany then declared war on us. We didn't say "Hey, Hitler, we're arguing with Japan, why are you declaring war on us?" And then we returned the favor.
Hitler signed his death warrant when he declared war on the United States, and we must be certain those who perpetrated this crime have signed their own as well. But in 1975, after Vietnam and Watergate, Senator Church of Idaho and his committee emasculated our CIA, and we are paying for it today. But tomorrow changes things. I think you will see a stronger intelligence service and a greater FBI as well. My question is will the American people have the balls to accept this and share in the sacrifice?
The American people seem willing. Europe is waffling.
Europe waffled in 1938 at Munich when they could have crushed Hitler right then since they had him outgunned. But they waffled and within two years the German war machine took northern and western Europe. You needn't tell me about Europe waffling. That's the name oftheir game because they can always call on the US to pull their chestnuts out of the fire. We did it in 1917, 1944, and the Ninetees. What else is new?
[It may take a few more days to sort things out, but is there any one out there who would not rather be safe than sorry.?]
Since we don't have any active intelligence networks in that part of the world it might take WEEKS or even MANY MONTHS before we hunt and find those responsible. Best we can do is shore up our borders in the meantime and get airport security beefed up so that repeats of what happenned last week will be less likely...
BMTman
Right Doug. We have to be sure that such a tragedy doesn't repeat itself, but I wonder again if the American people will be willing to accept the sacrifices and added security which will come to greater alertness in the coming months.
I think that this nation's information network is far in excess of what we presume it to be. The fact that the FBI zero'd in on these 19 terrorists so quickly should tell us something about their terrorist database. Sadly, as Paul has said, two were on a 'wanted' list and others were on the 'watch' list but it was the US Customs that dropped the ball.
The question is still, what difference does it make if it was Saddam Heussin was responsible an not Osama bin Laden. They are both going to be rats, scurrying for cover. As our President has said, after we get the ones responsible for the World Trade Center, we will go after the other terrorists and their networks & supporters too. Saddam first or second or even third, it is appearant that the President will finish what his father should have.
Is he looking to overhaul Dad's 91% approval rating after Desert Storm?
Can you imagine how scary it would be if Clinton were still president? This country may not be ready for war, due to Clinton's lack of spending on military during his years as president.
You and I, and many subtalkers, all seem to be on the same page on this matter. These countries who support terrorism should be eliminated. Unfortunately, it won't be that easy. Just yesterday, I was watching the news, when a story reported that peace demonstrations are taking place in Seattle and other cities demanding a "peaceful solution" to the WTC attacks. Can you believe that?
My generation does not have what it takes to get this country through a war involving ground troops. Our concept of war is bombing some mideastern country, and watching highlights of it on CNN.
Back to your original question: "what if it was Saddam"? Even if Saddam were involved, there would be US opposition to killing civilians in Iraq. And once we beat Saddam, there would be huge US support for helping the poor Iraqies who were the victims of US bombing.
Can you imagine how scary it would be if Clinton were still president?
I'd assume that the Republicans would have lined up with Pat Robertson and Rev. Falwell in placing blame on him for his "moral" trangressions, etc.
This country may not be ready for war, due to Clinton's lack of spending on military during his years as president.
He's not president, so a different slant must be used for Clinton-bashing.
Have you been listening to the interviews with Hillary? (Yes, that Hillary).
After she approved of the specific way Bush is handling this, she was asked whether the way her husband handled terrorist situations was a mistake--i.e., legal pursuit and reacting with brief hard military strikes to individual incidents--sort of the 'tit for tat' that Israel used for much of the last decade.
She didn't say her busband's policy was wrong, but she didn't say it was right either. She more or less said that that was then and this is now--that last Tuesday's incidents gave us a different perspective and now Bush's approach is the right way.
It's a historically interesting question as to whether, if Clinton were still in office he would have had a shift in perspective or whether we would have reacted the same as in the past, just larger, like nuking something.
The current situation makes for some strange bedfellows -- I read tonight that Rush Limbaugh blasted Falwell and Robertson and praised Chuck Schumer on his show today, while Schumer was praising Bush for doubling the disaster relief allotment to NYC.
Hillary's in a funny position now, both because of her relationship to the former president and because the state she represents was the main target of the terrorists. I've already seen stories (and posted one Sunday) about anti-war protests breaking out in isolated areas, along with several Massachusetts college profs (along with Columbia University prof and Palestinian apologist Edwin Said) who have written op-ed pieces that pretty much say the U.S. had this coming.
Once the attack begins, I'm sure the criticism of the attacks and of Bush will increase, and had they blown up the Sears Tower, the Space Needle in Seattle or the Arco Center in Los Angeles, there would be horror in New York, but more detatchment, because it happened, but it didn't happen here. That would probably make a pacifist stance, or critcism of Bush's handling of the situation more palitable coming out of NYC a few weeks down the line from now.
But since it was New York, it was the World Trade Center and the death toll estimate is going back up again, it's hard to see any New York politician urging restraint or telling Bush he should be trying bin Laden at The Hague for war crimes instead of blowing his ass off the planet. So barring some major military disaster, I expect Hillary to be one of Bush's biggest supporters on military action against the terrorists, or face new questioning about her own New York credentials.
I think that this nation's information network is far in excess of what we presume it to be. The fact that the FBI zero'd in on these 19 terrorists so quickly should tell us something about their terrorist database.
The major reason for the quick identification is that no effort was made by the perpetrators to cover their tracks. They did not need to cover their tracks because evasion after the act was not part of their plan.
... two were on a 'wanted' list and others were on the 'watch' list but it was the US Customs that dropped the ball.
It appears that one of the material witnesses being held is presumed to have intended to be on one of the flights. He was apprehended a few months ago in Minneapolis on an immigration violation. He'd been languishing in a county jail. The FBI had been notified. The only reason they "rediscovered" his whereabouts is that he cheered loudly, when the TV in jail showed the WTC pictures. The only thing that gives me faith in the FBI is that their adversaries are usually more stupid. If the advocates for not pampering prisoners had their way and TV was banned, he'd still be in hiding. :-)
The major reason for the quick identification is that no effort was made by the perpetrators to cover their tracks. They did not need to cover their tracks because evasion after the act was not part of their plan.
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Evasion after the act was not possible either. Let's face it, authorities went right to the Arab names on the flight manifest and were able to know who the suspects were within hours.
If any of these men were on a 'watch' list, then why didn't the FBI send their names to every airline in the world to begin with? This could have at least given the airlines warning that subjects of an FBI investigation were going to be flying. It could have prevented at least one of the flights from not crashing. I always thought communication between the feds and airlines was much better than what we're now finding out.
Evasion after the act was not possible either.
Evasion after the act was not possible because the perpetrators would be dead not because of any deductive reasoning by the police.
Let's face it, authorities went right to the Arab names on the flight manifest and were able to know who the suspects were within hours.
If that is the only clue that our gumshoes are using, then I pity the poor person with an arabic surname who may have been on one of those flights for legitimate reasons. He is not only dead but his estate will be prosecuted.
Evasion brings on additional risks of detection before the act is perpetrated. Judging by the nature of the clues that are reported to have been ignored, the planners must have been fearful of their recruits' blunder potential.
This act would make a great Bolting Brothers comedy like "Two Way Stretch" or "Lavender Hill Mob", were it not for the loss of life. Perhaps in thirty years there will be an equivalent of "Private Schultz"; I won't be around to enjoy it. One of the clues that has led to some of the material witnesses' capture has been buying one-way instead of round trip tickets. What were they doing, saving money, cheating on their expense accounts? I can conceive of a tasteless Saturday Night Live type sketch that mocks both the hijackers' and our police stupidity.
If any of these men were on a 'watch' list, then why didn't the FBI send their names to every airline in the world to begin with?...I always thought communication between the feds and airlines was much better than what we're now finding out.
Let me guess that this "watch" list was classified information. Its release might have alerted anyone on it to obtain a fake green card. If the list remained classified and those on it would not be alerted. The list would remain accurate, even if it were useless.
One thing that alerted airline and railroad personnel was that these people paid for their tickets in cash. I guess that creating a false identity to obtain a credit card was beyond these masterminds' capability.
The reason cash payments were noticed is that the airline security personnel get a commission for helping catch drug smugglers. If the airline security people were not working on commission these material witnesses might still be out there.
"Let me guess that this "watch" list was classified information. Its release might have alerted anyone on it to obtain a fake green
card. If the list remained classified and those on it would not be alerted. The list would remain accurate, even if it were useless."
If I recall correctly from what I've read, the "watch list" applies mostly to international flights. The people who were on the planes and on the watch list had entered the country before their names were placed on the list, meaning they got into the country not because the watch list is secret (if it were, it would be pointless), but because no one was looking for them at the time. Not promlugating the watch list to domestic flights was a really stupid thing to do, obviously, and one of the things that must've been changed by now.
Seth
While I've never been in favor of jailhouse justice, in this case I'd clearly make an exception. "Anyone got a shank they ain't using?"
One of the criticisms the Bush Administration was getting before Tuesday was we weren't involved enough in the Middle East negotiations compared to Clinton's talks with Barak and Arafat. And to be as charitable as possible to Yassir, he chickened out last year at signing a peace deal because he knew the Hamas supporters -- the ones who go hand-in-hand with bin Laden's type of terrorism -- would have done to him what was done to Sadat after the Camp David accords.
I suppose we could disengage completely and tell Arafat and Sharon, "Fellas, you're on your own. Have at it," and let them fight it out among themselves, but I doubt we'd be able to stay disengaged very long, because when the Israelis would inevitable roll over the radical Palestinians all the "moderate" Arab states would demand that the U.S. intervene to stop the violence or risk having its oil supply cut off.
Then you would have people screaming about why the U.S. is abdocating its responsability as the last remaining global superpower in helping with Middle East talks and risking $4 a gallon gasoline and people going without heating oil in the Northeast during the winter. And if we got back into peace talks to prevent that, then you're back making enemies of the terrorists again who want Israell destroyed.
There are no easy choices and there is no way to avoid being involved in the world, or having enemies in the world. And you can't sit back and do nothing about your enemies after what they did to you.
Absolutely right J. If we remember history, we refused to accept world leadership after World War I because we became disillusioned with what occurred at Versailles and its immediate aftermath. We were upset at what was happening with the Open Door Policy in China as well. So we isolated behind our oceans. And what did it get us? It got us Hitler and the Tojo, and World War II. Hey guys, whether we like it or not, being a world power has its responsibilities. And when you are the No.1 power in the world you have to accept that fact. We try as best we can to have an even hand inthings and sometimes we get people mad at us, but we must try. Of course, when terrorists strike at us, there is no other recourse than to smash his ass to smithereens. No one said it was going to be easy, but that's the way it is. If anyone has any better suggestions, I'm all ears because I know I don't have all the answers to this.
"Of course, when terrorists strike at us, there is no other recourse than to smash his ass to smithereens. No one said it was going to be easy, but that's the way it is. If anyone has any better suggestions, I'm all ears because I know I don't have all the answers to this."
Smash the terrorists' asses to smithereens, certainly. But then you have to prevent new terrorists from cropping up: Marshall Plan Part II, revitalizing the rest of the world, anybody?
Just a thought.
Seth
Further from the Truth...
all I have to do is look at this picture to strengthen my resolve...
May The City of Constantinople/Istanbul come back home to Greece.
May Greece make a Greek capital out of her once more...
Cyprus has kind of dropped out of the news headlines for the past 20 years or so, but during the Cold War it was a major hot spot in that part of the world, with the U.S. and its NATO allies trying to keep Greece and Turkey from seeking help from the Soviets with their cause. The end of the bi-polar superpower arrangement between the U.S. and the U.S.S.R. has downgraded a lot of trouble spots in the eyes of the American public, but that doesn't mean if those locations didn't become hot enough we wouldn't be asked to get back in, as is the case with the Arab-Israeli conflict
Funny you mentioned Kypros.
I've always espoused Union(Enosis) of the Island with Hellas provided of course the Turkish Occupation army in the North moves back to mainland. (ie. Anatolia)
Um....
Didn't you say you were Chinese here?
Gee - caught in a lie. How many more? Seems my judgement about the 4 stooges is dead-on.
Train Dude..If your Retired.
Go back to your nearest Navy Recruiter .
The Navy Needs you...
Your first post was way off the wall. I questioned it myself. We don't need America bashing now. Sure, we have done our share of bad things------What we did to Native Americans, Slavery, Japanese-Americans in camps-----but we have learned and grown from that and we are the greatest nations in the history of mankind. We don't need you qualifying with ridiculous statements that get the hair on our necks rising. This is not the time for it. Many of us are sad and mad, and I, for one, am still somewhat enraged at what happened. If you are going to post things like that you have to be ready to reap the whirlwind. There wasn't any excuse for what you did.
You mean the Collateral Damage piece?
That was circulating around my Orthodox mailing list..
The piece tries to explain why some people feel this way.
Chinese people can be Orthodox Christians and have concerns outside of the US and their country of origin. If you continue to close your eyes to basic facts like this, someday you'll end up running into a wall.
Seth
Nod..
Exactly Seth...
a beautiful mosque ....
It'll be better as a Church! and it was a Church!
and it will be a Church!
Zito I Ellas!
Zito I 21martiou!
Oh Shit!!!!! For God's sake, please no religious rivalries please. Can we try and keep that out of this because it will only generate more heat. Freedom of Religion. That is what makes us what we are, and Lincoln and Jefferson knew that. I love being Catholic, but I did not insist my wife become one. My daughter was baptized, yes, but she is 22 and if she wants to become a Jew, Mormon, Muslim, or whatever, that is her business. I can see where could lead, and if you can accept this somewhat corny refrain, I don't want my Subtalk brothers getting into a war over religion. There is enough heat on board becuase of that other matter. Let's not get embroild in a new one. PLEASE????
Okey Doke..
But he started it by saying it was a Beautiful Mosque..
when in fact its now a Museum.. :(
Hold on please. Turkey has been one of our most dependable allies in Asia Minor for over half a century, and while I detest what they did to the Armenians in 1915, they have been good friends since World War II. We don't need a war between two of our friends. Good God, when we have to referee between our buddies overseas, then gentlemen, we are all in a potful of poo.
Have you seen the track record of Hellas?
How helpful have they've been to NATO lately?
(Hope my Greek friends don't kill me for this too.)
Mikrasia (Asia Minor/Anatolia) was home to Armenians, Cappadocian/Pontic/Ionian/Asiatic Konstantinoupolitan Greeks, and Christian Assyrians...
not just Christian Armenians..
Just to clarify...
Oh and sorry didn't mean to sound like a Greek Ultranationalist..
But I am... (My Greek friends made me so..)
I'm just biologically Chinese.
Who happened to adhere to the "Great Idea"
and extremely dedicated to a Greater Greece.
I am biologically Italian-American, but I feel the same way about Poland the way you do Greece. It's amazing how we decide to identify with a country besides our own. Poland has been carved up between Austria, Germany, Russia, Nazis and Communists for the past 400 years, but now she in NATO and safe. An attack on Poland is an attack on the United States. So it is not wierd for a Chinese-American to identify with Greece.
This I one I got from Observer...A Forum Mate.
Observers Observations
Dude, people don't act without reasons. Reasons don't always make actions right, but they explain WHY people do things. If we know WHY people do things, we can, hopefully, remove the cause, which will, first, solve the problem, and, second, prevent a lot of bloodshed on both sides.
Think of it this way, there are a lot of pissed off people in the world, many for good reason. Some of them, a small minority, resort to terrorism. Now, if we can *snip* prune those diseased branches (terrorists), you'd think the problem's solved. But so long as the germ (whatever's pissing them off) is still there, the disease will return again and again. Worse, if we just destroy the whole tree, both healthy parts and diseased parts, weeds'll sprout all over, even harder to eradicate and more dangerous to the US. Rather, you have two tasks: to prune the tree and to remove the germ.
So, what to do? Solve one problem and create a bigger one, potentially, or work hard for a long time to solve the problem once and for all.
Of course, it's really hard to eradicate a disease; we can't expect complete success (though it might come in a VERY long time, probably after everyone posting today's dead, sadly), but we can minimize its effects, vaccinating people, if you will, by showing them that America is good, not oppressive or murderous. And, perhaps to get a little corny/naive/idealistic, isn't that what America's supposed to be--a force for good in the world, a shining beacon of hope and freedom to oppressed people everywhere? We can't be those things if we go careening thru the woods, destroying everything in our path, even our own citizens if they happen to look different.
No one here's being anti-American/pro-terrorist; we're just trying to make sense of what's happening in the world. Even Alan Glick, especially when he says "open your mind," has valid points--the world is not black and white; you can't point to one thing and say, "This is the root of all evil in the world." People make their own choices that affect the world (not always the right ones, like to blow up buildings), but the world affects how they choose (which does NOT excuse their actions), and no one should forget that.
I think this'll be my last posting having to do with the STUPID STUPID STUPID topic of personal insults caused by choices made under the influence of intense rage (which I respect and excuse), but, if racist, xenophobic, and genocidal posts continue (despite the cooler heads that are now coming to the fore), I will object.
If you have any questions, complaints, or anything, please e-mail them to me.
Thanks
Seth
AMEN to that.
Excellent post, Seth
Yeah, just shut your ears to everyone you disagree with. You'll learn a lot that way.
You are absolutely correct. I'll make you #4 on my asshole list and I won't have to learn anything from you either. Adios Asshole
Soon, you'll be the only poster on subTalk. Then you can agree with yourself 24 hours a day!
I've said it before and I'll say it again Dude, I'm glad you are my ally and not my enemy. I'd have a shitload of trouble if I had to take you on. Has any of the four E-Mailed you? I got one from one of the guys. He came across a lot different there.
wellllll...
You can email me at sdc8874@hotmail.com
Hey Dude: Sometimes I wonder if those two guys are the same person with different titles. They sound so much alike. Now a third imbecile joins the club. I don't know what to make of it.
what can I say..
You're a bunch of crusty old Conservatives.!!!
I said it yesterday but I think it's more than a coincidence that the 3 assholes surfaced here on subtalk in such a short period of time.
This being SubTalk, they're obviously undergound agents!
I understand that our government has done some terrible things. I hate the 'world policeman' crap that the US uses to push other nations around.
But, the United States of America has gone out of their way not to attack innocent civilians. Even in WWII, we purposely attacked the German war machine and not innocent Germans. This Stupid and cowardly attack was conducted on defenseless civilians who were killed merely because they worked at the symbol of capitolism.
The two things you compare are extremely different.
"But, the United States of America has gone out of their way not to attack innocent civilians."
No! Check out the US firebombing of Dresden, Tokyo, and other German and Japanese cities during WWII. Just an example: in Dresden, first we dropped high explosives (to create kindling), then we dropped firebombs (to burn everything), and then we dropped landmines (to kill people who tried to put out the fires).
No country's past is spotless.
Seth
We killed 500,000 innocents in Japan alone with the Atomic Bomb. It was to send a message. Just as this terrorist attck. Either way, it was a waste of human life.
Wrong. We acted to end an unjustified war. The terrorists are in the same catagory as the Japanese of WW 2.
Alan Glick
"We killed 500,000 innocents in Japan alone with the Atomic Bomb. It was to send a message. Just as this terrorist attck. Either way, it was a waste of human life"
Damned right. Racism is NOT the answer and will not help anything.
Was it racism to say "damn Germans" or "damn Japanese" when these entire peoples launched war against us? It was the reasonable response against nations who themselves were motivated by racist hatred of others.
You would have us hold back from paying these racist animals their due merely out of fear of being called racists ourselves? Thank God we didn't hold such views during World War 2.
Alan Glick
So your saying you don't have any problem with what we did to the Japanese in the country during World War Two.
Correct. We were at war, literally fighting for our survival. I'd rather that the people in charge of our security were too careful and went too far instead of being cowed by such sentiments as yours and being too lax and not going far enough. Remember, in the US no Japanese conducted acts of sabatoge. I read somewhere that they did in South America.
"So your saying you don't have any problem with what we did to the Japanese in the country during World War Two"
>>> So your saying you don't have any problem with what we did to the Japanese in the country during World War Two. <<<
You make the same mistake that was made in the ‘40s. It was Americans that were put into concentration camps in the Western States, not just Japanese. Their removal from the West Coast allowed speculators to buy their property at fire sale prices. There was no real belief that they were a security risk.
Tom
OK....wait a minute. I was not denouncing our country for protecting our freedom in WWII, or now, I was merely stating that pointing fingers at a member of a nationality, who did not personally wrong you despite that members of their nation did, is wrong. For example, let's say that Lebanon was involved. Would you pick up a gun and shoot the Lebanese girl next door? If you are truly a rational person I think not. And that is what I was trying to say.
-F.
I agree with what you say here. However, I would not hesitate to bomb Lebanon (your choice) into oblivion. Remember, this is an act of war against our entire country.
Alan Glick
"For example, let's say that Lebanon was involved. Would you pick up a gun and shoot the Lebanese girl next door? If you are truly a rational person I think not. And that is what I was trying to say.
-F."
Alan, that country was posted merely as an example and not an inkling of prejudice; I hope you understand that. Also, we don't have details yet but I'm sure we will nail the culpit fair and square, whoever they are and from wherever they came from.
maybe to us racism isn't the solution, but to them under their religious beliefs, they will not stop bombing the western world. to them it is the only way to get to heaven if they kill "the infidels" which they claime is the message coming from allah
If it did come from Muslim extremists, and that has NOT been proved at all yet, then it is up to the Muslim communities in the United States to vigorously condemn their co-religionists in the harshest terms and demand that they be punished severly. Any meely mouthing to the fact that they palm it off on our relations with Israel or any of the crap just will not fly-----and it could cause much harm to them if they persist on defending them.
The smart ones will make their standard statement, that they condemn ALL terrorism. They will leave unsaid their implication that they mean to include America and Israel in their unspoken list of terrorists. Please let's not be fooled by such childish talk.
Alan Glick
Alan: If that is what is said then I will be unconvinced---and I will confront those Arabs I know to force them to commit themselves. Either they're Americans or foreigners and if the latter they had better get the hell out of my sight pronto.
Touche. And terribly so. If only we could brainwash them into a more peaceful sense of thinking.
I think at this point, it matters not who the individuals are who are responsible for these acts. If they are captured, can they adequately be punished for this act? The images of 3,00 Palestinians dancing in the streets & celebrating speaks volumes about what needs to be done. Make no mistake about it, this is an act of war. The appropriate response is to wipe out the 5 nations that support and give refuge to known terrorist groups. Syria, Lybia, Iraq, Palestine and Afghanastan need to be flattened and paved over.
We don't know that the People responsible were Abarb if they then we should take very storng action. However we still don't know.
Don't worry -- we will, but I guarentee you, there will be people in the U.S. complaining about our retaliation when it does come.
Also, look for the U.S. to look the other way if Ariel Sharon and the Israeli army decide to attack their terrorists after this.
Perhaps I didn't state my thoughts properly. It doesn't matter if the people who carried out the attack are arabs - although the likelihood is high. The perpetrators can never be adequately punished. The idea of a measured response will not get the message across. They've got to get the message even if they don't answer the phone. It is time to eliminate the nations that sponsor and support international terrorism. Give them 24 hours notice to evacuate and then level the capitals of those nations. Then destroy the surrounding infrastructure so it'll take generations before they can rebuild. Supporting terrorism must have a very steep price.....
A handy way to get rid of all the extra nukes too! Pulverize 'em! Vaporize 'em! KILL 'EM ALL - WHOEVER and WHATEVER they are!
wayne
i heard on cspan some callers saying it was israel that caused this. this is just BULLS--T. israel is the only friend in mideast. just look at the palasites dancing in street in gaza.
That sounds like a knee-jerk reaction from a bunch of hot-headed fanatics. As for Israel; they are in a perpetual defensive stance; they are NOT in the habit of exporting international terrorism. They do covert operations against those they perceive as enemies.
wayne
Watch out for the liberal do-gooders who want a "measured response", whatever the shit that is. And we should keep our eyes on the Muslim Communities. Only their vitriolic denunciation of what took place should placate the rest of us. They must prove they are Americans first and Muslims or Arabs second. Anything else and I have no sympathy if the wrath of Americans come down on them. I hope they do the right thing.
As for those rotten sons-of-bitches in Gaza and the West Bank, well, I'm not surprised. Palestinians over there are a rotten, pathetic bunch, and so self respecting Muslim over here should have any brotherly feeling for them.
I consider myself a "do-gooder" liberal, and I'll be happy to personally push the button myself.
-- David
Chicago, IL
Watch out for the liberal do-gooders who want a "measured response", whatever the shit that is.
Fred, it's already started:
Let level heads prevail
J: To Dan Fisher: Fuck you!!!!!@!!!
I don't see anything in the article you linked about a measured response, just a warning to make sure we're going after the right people and not jumping to conclusions. How is saying that we should hit the right people a call for a wishy-washy response?!?!
Call me pessimistic, but if someone eight hours after the disasters is writing like this, I just have the feeling that three weeks down the line he'll probably be against -- or at least deeply, deeply concerned -- about whatever action the U.S. has or will take and it's effects on both the innocent people in those countries and our standing in the world.
I mean, won't a really stiff U.N. resolution condeming the attack suffice? Or sactions? How about sanctions, except on important things, like medical supplies ... and maybe food ... and maybe electric generators for their schools and hospitals? (As ludicious as this sounds, it's what people were saying about Iraq just a short while after the Gulf War was over)
Unfortunately we have people like that in America, wishy-washy, irresolute specimens who are scared shitless of consequences that might entail a little sacrifice. I am surprised to hear John express those thoughts and I await his clarification on this issue.
So you're against forethought? Yeah, let's just LASH out against everyone, because that way we'll be sure to hit whoever's to blame (loads of sarcasm here). Whatever we do, we have to do it right, not just quickly.
Seth
If we wait as long as you recommend Bin Laden will have time to remove his organization from Afghanistan and we'll never be able to smash him and his organization; at least not for a long time. I get the feeling that that wouldn't upset you terribly. Thank God the US is not run by lily-livered teenagers (not any more it isn't).
Alan Glick
"So you're against forethought? Yeah, let's just LASH out against everyone, because that way we'll be sure to hit whoever's to blame (loads of sarcasm here). Whatever we do, we have to do it right, not just quickly.
Seth"
I'm recommending that we wait until we know who did it and no longer.
Seth
And then what???? You still have not answered that question. I'm asking you what kind of action you suggest to remedy this tragedy? That is a simple enough question. Answer it and satisfy those of us who are perceiving you as an American bashing, Palestinian apologist.
"I am surprised to hear John express those thoughts and I await his clarification on this issue."
My position is that we should find out who did this, and whoever supported and harbored them, and remove them from the face of the earth with grim resolve. But we have to FIND OUT WHO DID IT FIRST! Not with the certainty of a judge and jury, because this has gone past mere crime to war, but with some credible evidence for ourselves and the world that we are wiping out the right people. We CANNOT have a "who cares who we hit, just hit hard" response, because hitting the wrong people would mean that the actual criminals got away.
I do not like having my loyalty or my resolve questioned in such a manner merely because I advocate striking the correct target. When many thousands were fleeing downtown Chicago on rumor and speculation, I put in a full day's work at my office and headed home on my regular train as my own personal act of defiance to the terrorists.
Hear Hear
Hey,listen ,,I saw the dead ,,laid out ,in the street,Why dont you all concentrate your energies on helping the people who need blood,or supplies,,and pray for the children ,,husbands and wives,daughters and sons ,left alone from this day,forth!!!!!!
Did you know that 2 firemen were found floating in the Hudson River???
Steve
FDNY
I have not heard that....I am sorry for the loss of two of your brothers...
Removing these evil creatures from off the face of the planet will help see to it that no more innocent victims will need our prayers. If we had listened to hawks such as myself we would have taken out such animals years ago, and today we wouldn't be mourning for the innocent. Instead we listened to weaklings and the innocent are paying the price for our cowardice.
Alan Glick
"Hey,listen ,,I saw the dead ,,laid out ,in the street,Why dont you all concentrate your energies on helping the people who need blood,or supplies,,and pray for the children ,,husbands and wives,daughters and sons ,left alone from this day,forth!!!!!!"
Fred,
In a free and democratic society no one has the obligation to "prove" their innocence to you or anyone else because they dress a certain way or because of their religion. I'm hearing a lot of ugly, ignorant, talk about Muslims that cannot be helpful in any way.
Having said that, I have no objections to our invading a country we know for a fact to have sponsored this attack. I'd support sending a team of commandoes to their capital, and telling them "We're going to arrest your leaders and take them for trial in the US." I'm so mad I might even entertain, "Interfere with our team, and a Trident missile will take out half your country."
Based on Russia's experience in Afghanistan 20 years ago and the fact that they know the mountaious terrain, and we don't, I'm afraid that if we want to go in and get the people responsible, it's going to take more than just a small force to do it, and will require the co-operation of at least one of Afghanistan's three neighbors, Russia, India or Pakistan, to allow both U.S. overflights and U.S. groud troop deployments for a staging area into that country. And as the inffective 1998 attacks proved, we can't just fire a few cruise missiles at some mountain caves and expect to get this done; it's going to take a far larger military effort and undoubtably some American troops are going to die.
None of the three nations on the Afghan border is any freind of the Taliban, but Russia and Pakistan have their own internal problems -- the Muslim fundametalists in both nations and the question of political soverginty from hard-line Russians if they allow U.S. troops on their soil -- that make any major American attack trough those countries subject to a major diplomatic fight, which would most likely kill any chance of a sudden and swift response. India, with its own anti-Muslim attitudes, would likely be the most receptive of the three to permit some sort of American presence for an attack into Taliban-controlled areas.
Russia has wanted Afghanistan for centuries. Afghanistan, along with Iran would provide Russia with a supply line through the Persian Gulf. If we promise to deliver what's left of Afghanistan to Russia when we are done with the bombardment, they would be happy to accomodate us. BTW, when Russia invaded Afghanistan and appeared to be winning, we supplied the Mujhadeen (holy warrior) groups with sophisticated Stinger anti-aircraft missles (don't worry, the battery/coolant units necessary to use the Stingers have a short shelf life) they were able to shoot many Soviet helicopters out of the sky, and the western media reported on alleged atrocites by the Soviets. This time they will get neither arms nor news coverage. The end of Afghan history can be a zero risk operation for America if we work with Russia to smash Afghanistan once and for all. TAKE THAT,OLD TOM
TAKE THAT,OLD TOM
Maybe Old Tom has Alzheimer's
I should point out that Russia no longer borders Afghanistan, all of the Former Soviet Stans are in the way.
But otherwise the idea of involving Russia is sound. Not only do they (as you say) have the expertise, they also are having problems disarming their vast arsenal. We can start by discharging their vulnerable weapons into Afghanistan.
Even if it is not Bin-Laden (yeah, and next we'll find out we were wrong and the world really is flat), then Afghanistan is still guilty of harboring him and others guilty of other attacks, NONE OF WHICH MUST BE TOLERATED.
>>> Russia has wanted Afghanistan for centuries. Afghanistan, along with Iran would provide Russia with a supply line through the Persian Gulf. If we promise to deliver what's left of Afghanistan to Russia when we are done with the bombardment, they would be happy to accomodate us. <<<
The age of colonialism is over. Afghanistan will never become a colony of Russia, no matter what we or the Russians do.
Tom
And it should not. It should become a vast nuclear waste dump.
"I have no objections to our invading a country...." I concur. But the basic problem with your idea is that nearly every other country would object and say cool it.... until it itself is attacked repeatedly by terrorists. Just ask Israel. The flack it took for shooting down a commercial airliner from Libya around 1971 because of intelligence information that terrorists would crash it into their major city, Tel Aviv. Better yet, ask the BBC managers why they refer to terrorists against British rule as "terrorists" but terrorists against other country's civilians as "militants".
I agree that the objections you present will be voiced - but right now we're under no obligation to anyone to "cool it." If they say that, it will be in muted tones.
"...right now we're under no obligation...." I don't disagree with you. I'm only surprised to read from you. But the only effective battle against terrorism is when enough civilized countries will call it just that, terrorism, and when they don't tell the victim country "cool it" but rather "right on" when the same take measures to protect themselves and their citizens.
I don't want us to strike out indiscriminately. That's morally wrong. But if we find solid evidence pointing at a culprit and sponsor state, we don't need anybody's permission to nail them.
After what happened yesterday, whether a strike is morally right or not is irrelevent. We are not dealing with people who know or care about morals. What did our morals give us? Destroyed buildings, thousands, perhaps tens of thousands innocent people killed. This is no time to worry about morals. This is war, we have to win or be killed. You may not like it, but we are dealing with an evil that is hard for normals people to understand. That is why we sit about morals and look for dead bodies at the same time. Israel has refrained from what they should have been doing for years because they were worried about morality and world opinion. Has that done anything for them. We had our own Colin Powel criticizing Israel's response to terrorist attacks as excessive. Would he feel the same about an attack after yesterday as being excessive? If so, he must be removed from office. The last thing I want is war, but we have it now, like it or not. If a mugger comes at you with a knife, you have to try to defend yourself, even if it means killing him. This is not different. We have been attacked and must strike. If innocent people have to die in other countries, well better them than more innocent Americans. I would say more, but I'm too distraught. Like many people I know many good people who perished needlessly. This must end once and for all, or we will have to live through more of these attacks. I for one have had enough.
You hit the nail right on the head. If terrorists can force us to act against the constitution and the beliefs enshrined in the Declaration of Independence, then they've won.
Seth
First let's get a couple of things straight. The idea of hiding behind the Constitution has been tried and used before with dire consequences. We are at war and sometimes you have to copy the enemy's tactics in order to survive. And make no mistake about it, those people who perpetrated this act want to kill of the United States. Also, keep this in mind. In 1862, Abraham Lincoln, this nation's greatest President, made the famous statement"
"What good is the Constitutioin to me if I have no country."
We have to win this war. We have to stop this sort of treachery from happening again, and that means massive retataliation even with the possibillity of nuclear strikes. If we sit back and fall back on our Constitution as a basis of non-action, then we will be sitting ducks again and again. Also we must institute a policy of political assasination. The times are dire and we must have dire policies to avoid dire consequences. Dead terrorists can hurt you.
Lincoln was also the most hated President,not only by the South,but by many in the North.
But he was proven right by history and now he is the most revered man in US History.
But he [Lincoln] was proven right by history and now he is the most revered man in US History.
Horsehockey. But for now let's put aside our differences on that issue - we have far greater concerns to deal with.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Agreed No more politics
Anon: If you are going to go off on an anti-Lincoln tangent now or in the future, you and I are going to have some problems. But for now, yes, we must all come together and decide what we feel the President should do.
"We are at war and sometimes you have to copy the enemy's tactics in order to survive. And make no mistake about it, those people who perpetrated this act want to kill of the United States."
And by going against the constitution you kill the United States. We must act, of course, but we should not turn in on ourselves, attacking American citizens simply because they look different than you or I might, as many on this board are suggesting. Whatever we do must rise above the level of genocide and terrorism; racism and nuclear war do not.
Seth
"And by going against the constitution you kill the United States."
No, if we listen to your kind, we allow the terrorsts to kill the US.
"We must act, of course, but we should not turn in on ourselves, attacking American citizens simply because they look different than you or I might, as many on this board are suggesting."
It has nothing to do with how they look. It has to do with how they act; supporting enemies of the US.
"Whatever we do must rise above the level of genocide and terrorism; racism and nuclear war do not.
Seth"
Nuclear attacks will end those who are the true agents of genocide and terrorism. And it will do so without costing American lives. No wonder the supporters of Arab terrorism are against it.
Alan Glick
Seth, don't forget that the Constitution was written long before the Founding Fathers could have foreseen the era of suicide bombings. If there is a person who is armed who has decided to murder you, he will catch up with you eventually, and you will surely die if you are unarmed and unprotected. In the present day situation, members of free societies like the U.S. will have to realize that they will have to sacrifice some personal, individual freedom for the sake of the security and well-being of the civilian populace in general. If the attitude you expressed prevails amongst the citizenry, I fear the future greatly.
I think you might have slightly misinterpreted what I posted.
I agree that there'll have to be sacrifices of personal liberties, but it has to be a balancing act between security and liberty.
Whatever is done, it must be done fairly and equally--increases in security must affect ALL Americans, not just a single group. If the country surrenders to its worse racist impulses, then I fear the future greatly.
Seth
Wrong. Whatever must be done should be done to those whom we have a legitimate reason to believe are pro-terrorists.
Alan Glick
"Whatever is done, it must be done fairly and equally--increases in security must affect ALL Americans, not just a single group. If the country surrenders to its worse racist impulses, then I fear the future greatly."
I would like to here from anyone of Afghani or Palestinian ethnicity concerning the information available to the average people in these countries. Does the news coverage available give information concerning their governments actions in regard to any terrorists operating out of these countries?
We are lucky in this country to get relatively unbiased news coverage. My gut feeling without having lived there is that in Afghanistan in particular, the average person has no knowledge of what their governments do or don't do in regards to people like Bin Ladin.
If there is anyone out there who has lived in these countries, please speak out. So far all of the opinions expressed on this site appear to be from those of us who have no "real" knowledge of what it like to live in a country with extremely censored news.
Any Afghan or Pakistani who does speak out will likely "construct" facts to make their fellow countrymen not look culpable. And, of course, such lies will be held up as "truth" by those who wish to absolve the guilty.
Alan Glick
What if those terrorists plotted and planned in the U.S. itself? What if the headquarters of that organization is in the U.S.? What if the terrorists belonging to that organization entered the U.S. legally? What if they are a tax-deductible religious/charity organization? What if a they used the freedoms of religion and assembly to "pray" and plot from a mosque? Would you invade it or send a Trident missile? Are these questions "ugly and ignorant talk about Muslims that cannot be helpful in any way"? Or are they close to reality?
It's just as likely that redneck hillbillies could have done this. Remember the rush to judgement on Oklahoma City? Everbody thought it was Arab terrorists and it turned to be some home-grown white-bread boys.
Even though I have feelings that this attack has come from abroad -- I can't let a 'gut' reaction lead me down a blind alley of hatred...
BMTman
Just to see Palestinians dancing in the streets in celebration of what has happened is reason enough to want to wipe them out.
Sorry guy, if you're looking to give a liberal sensitivity course, today is not the day.
No, today is not the day for liberal sensitivity. But BMT Doug does have a point. Let's wait and see just who really is responsible for this disgusting terrorist act. Then we should wipe them out completely.
Again, my point is that it doesn't matter. How do you punish one person for thousands of murders. The enemy is terrorism. Leaflet the capitals of Lybia, Syria, Iraq, Afghanistan, Sudan & Palestine. Give 'em 48 hours to evacuate their capitals and then flatten the cities. Conventional weapons - no nukes - no germ warfare. Just make the cost of giving sanctuary to international terrorists too high to pay. Put the world on notice and if there is a next time, they have no excuses.
That only creates millions of refugees. Why warm them. Wipe them out. None of them sympathize with us, nor do they show any sadness for what happened to thousands of innocent Americans. If any of those countries are guilty, wipe them out. And George Bush had better not listen to liberals and take a frigging measured response. We have to hit those guilty bastards with the whole nine yards.
>>> If any of those countries are guilty, wipe them out. <<<
Fred;
I hope you are not teaching your students that genocide is the answer to international problems.
Tom
The events of yesterday morning constitute an act of war against the United States. If Osama bin Laden is responsible, then Afghanistan should suffer the full measure of the consequences: Comprehensive aerial bombardment, followed by PERMANENT loss of soverignty enforced by Russian annexation and NO MORE INTERFERENCE by the US in Russia's INTERNAL affairs i.e. Chechniya, and the DRA (former Afghanistan).
and the DRA (former Afghanistan).
The Russians should change the name to Gavnyanoye Territory.
No I'm not but swift, violent and massive retaliation is required. We are at war and there are those who want us destroyed. If you are not convinced of that by now then there is no reason to reason with you. We must now end our ban on political assasinations and begin our own terror campaign against the terrorists. And we cannot pick and choose a sanitized target or a "measured response" , whatever the hell that is. There will be thousands upon thousands killed if we retaliate as we should, and frankly I don't give a hoot in hell for some of those types when they killed innocent Americans. I care what happened to my people and I want the blood of those who caused it. If that makes me an ogre, so be it. I am an American first.
No it doesn't make you an ogre. Only those who would stand in your way, thus giving aid to the terrorists, are ogres.
Alan Glick
But with Who,Kabul Afganistan is just about a Ghost Town, Teheran declared it as a enemy of the Tabalan, The rest of Afganistan is back in the 1400s who for now do we bomb?Iam not saying do nothing,but what govet do we go after?
We will figure that out and we must be careful about it. I do NOT say retaliate now. Sort things out very carefully, check our info completely. Then, and only then, retaliate with a force never seen before in the history of the world against the guilty.
>>> swift, violent and massive retaliation is required. <<<
Against whom? We should not be flinging missiles at the "usual suspects" based on speculation that we will somehow get lucky and hit the perpetrators.
Tom
"If that makes me an ogre, so be it. I am an American first. "
So you'd rather be an American than a moral human being?
Seth
In my opinion as an American I am both. There isn't a more decent and moral person in the world than an American. So speak for your Palestinian brothers and yourself.
Genocide is now moral, brother?
Seth
Is he really a Palestinian? Or were you just insulting him?
Alan Glick
Alan: He is an apologist for them, so he is at least a blood brother.
You don't even read my posts, do you? You see that I disagree with you; hence, I'm wrong?
I abhor what happened. My stomach turned when I saw footage of Palestineans celebrating. Whoever did this must be punished, but you and others seem to be crying for immediate and indiscrimant retaliation without knowing facts or anything. That's simply ridiculous.
You and others are also posting racist and xenophobic rot, which is simply revolting, unproductive, and contrary to the spirit of America (to make that simpler: unamerican).
Terrorist acts are wrong; don't let our own actions be wrong as well.
Seth
And so Seth, how would you punish them? By sanctions? By embargoes?
By UN action (ha)??????? What would you do besides condemn our suggestions? I suspect you would do nothing.
The problem is, who do we punish? It's not like some nation sent fighter jets laden with bombs to attack the buildings, or even that it was soldiers of a foreign nation who simply had orders or support from some country. The fact remains that this is an ememy that is faceless; there is no one entity that can be just ourtight attacked. If evidence proves that bin Laden is indeed connected with these attacks, then go get bin Laden.
But, on the other hand, we should not let any known terrorists continue to operate. The U.S. should have already tried to put an end to terrorists. They carry out despicable acts of cowardice, and what's worse is that people like bin Laden are looked at as heroes, but have you ever seen bin Laden stand in the face of danger?
This is disgusting. Fortunately, as planes resume flights, the Carrier George Washington is sitting in NY harbor. Plus, the carrier John F. Kennedy is also headed here, as well as numerous other navy ships, including ones that do not need to launch planes to take down planes. They can directly launch missiles.
No problem. We hit the persons directly responsible, their organizations, and the nations and peoples who have provided them with support. Then we can look for the filthy fifth columnists who are part of their network.
Alan Glick
"The problem is, who do we punish?"
Terrorism has been existed for many decade. It's not just U.S. that is facing this vicious violence acts. Other countries as well. No one will ever knows when this vicious violence will end. Its already become cycle in society. Its became one of our fear that we all human being carry with us throughout our lives. Terrorism is surprises that knock everyone's door in everywhere and in anytime. It is a surprise that cause life and death to every human lives that is standing in this planet. No one will ever know when it will strike and where it will strike. Terrorism. This tragedy is one the example; The Pearl harbor was one the example; The hiroshima bomb was one of the example. The person who destroy WTC and Pentagon and anywhere in the state are terrorist to American's and to good hard working foreigner's live. Our revenge to Middle East is also terrorist to the torrorist itself and to there people as well.
When I see terrorist's people in the Middle East dancing in the street. I see a repeat of Violence. I see how some people can be severly cruelty. What even shock me the most was that I see childrens were laughing and dancing along with their people and love ones. It is so unbelievable where I even say this to myself "I think these children will grow into a voilence terrorist. They will become a treat to our children's generation and so on. I ask many people out there. They feel the same way.
I doubt that Seth, or myself (Nightrider) advocate doing nothing. We have destroyed targets in the last few years that were not what we thought they were. IE the Chinese embassy, and the Pharmaceutical plant. We jumped to act, then found out we had screwed up. In the case of the Chinese, this might have caused the death of our spy plane crew had not cooler heads prevailed. And the case of the pharmaceutical plant will cost us millions (maybe as much as our aid to the Palestinians).
"So you'd rather be an American than a moral human being?"
Seth, this is the second post in two days that have come from you and have been outrageous. So now if you are an American, you can't be a morel human being? The first post was deliberately ambiguous - this one, not so much. So there is no such ambiguity in my post, please read the following carefully.
I think you are an idiot.
I think you are an Anti-American Arab sympathizer
Mostly I know you are wrong.
I hadn't noticed that this post could be ambiguous, but you're right--it is ambiguous. I should have made it clear that most Americans (I think), like most Arabs (I think), are moral human beings, though some choose to sacrifice their morals in vile and vicious ways for other things.
I'll meet your very unambiguous statements now with my own, just so we're both clear where we stand:
1. The terrorists' actions were horrifically wrong.
2. The US must determine who acted and THEN punish them. (I emphasize "THEN" because it seems that people would like to punish whomever they hate without proof that those people are the culprits.)
3. Destroying an entire group of people for the actions of a few madmen is also wrong.
Seth
Once again the protectors of terrorists would have us buy the big lie. Sorry, but we know that the vast majority of the populace in countries such as Iraq, Syria, Iran, Afghanistan etc. are jumping for joy after seeing what terrorists have accomplished -- accomplished with their aid and support. Sorry, but all those connected with this act will pay, and not all the lies in the universe will stop that.
Alan Glick
"Destroying an entire group of people for the actions of a few madmen is also wrong."
I think we would all like to see where you found this information.
Watching news for the past few decades, reading the papers and keeping imformed. Not closing my mind to facts that stand in the way of appeasement.
Alan Glick
"I think we would all like to see where you found this information."
Watching news for the past few decades, reading the papers and keeping imformed.
Others have done the same thing and arrived at different conclusions. Perhaps they have added rational thought to the process.
They're either letting fear, or pro-terorist sentiments get in the way. I'd hardly call either rational.
Alan Glick
"Others have done the same thing and arrived at different conclusions. Perhaps they have added rational thought to the process"
Again for the tenth time, what do you gradualists out there suggest we do? None of you, not Chucubob, Seth, or Nightrider have come up with any suggestions as to what you would do. That makes me suspicious that you would do nothing. Convince me that I am wrong.
Can we bomb Boston now? We know they're jumping for joy every time someone is killed in Ireland.
What the hell is their problem anyway, aside from the Brits? What makes grown men throw insults at 5 year old girls? Jesus likes one more than the other?
-Hank
You would be shocked at how much money from the big dig is going to the IRA.
Let's lay off Ireland guys, ok? They have their problems and we have ours. Let me just say that if the Protestants in Northern Ireland would admit they are Irish I would have little problem with them. But they insists they are not Irish, but British, and that bugs the hell out of me because they are living in Ireland. But, at least for now, let us worry about us, the Americans. We should hope, and those of us who pray, should wish for more survivors, and if not then those who perished will be welcomed in heaven with a special place and grace reserved for them.
Again, how would you punish the guilty? By sending them totheir rooms without dinner. You have said nothing and the suspicion becomes clearer by the minute is that you would take no action at all because you just might kill an innocent civilian or two. WHO THE HELL DO YOU THINK WERE KILLED BY THE THOUSANDS TWO DAYS AGO?????? Innocent Americans. Do you understand that?
Yeah innocent Americans of Arab, Palestinian, Muslim, Jew, Christian, and White descent. So maybe they deserved to die because of their heritage?
Because Sadam Husein is a terrorist doesn't mean that all Iraquis are terrorists. Many Iraquis are the victims of their own terrorist government.
Thank you Dude. I have absolutely no idea where that guy is coming from, but I'm convinced he is an Arab sympathizer.
Hmmmmm, Must be that Colin Powell is an Arab sympathizer to. He said this morning that we shouldn't blame ethnic groups, ie Arabs, for what was the act of a few madmen.
Mr. Powell did say we shouldn't blameethnic groups. He did not say the word nations nor did he say that nations would not be held accountable. I'm quite sure that by the time the retalliatory strikes begin, you will understand the difference. While ethnic groups will not be targetted, I'm sure that one or more nations my get 'spanked' and real Americans will be proud.
Agreed! Who, is the question!!
Arti
>>> Just to see Palestinians dancing in the streets in celebration of what has happened is reason enough to want to wipe them out. <<<
Perhaps it would be better to try to understand why these Palestinians were dancing in the streets at the news rather than wanting to wipe them out. These were not the people who carried out the attack.
Tom
Have you ever seen the Palestinians wailing aafter an attack by Israel. Tears streaming, hand uplifted to the heavens. Well you won't see that from American citizens. We got right up, dusted ourselves off and began to get back to work. The palestinians, more than any group should know the pain of such attacks. The fact that they can and did rejoice in our tragedy - shows that they are not fit to live in the community of civilized man. The next time we see palestinians on our TV screens, may they be kneeling, palms held upwards, tears streaming, in the shadow of a small mushroom cloud.
The fact that they can and did rejoice in our tragedy - shows that they are not fit to live in the community of civilized man.
At this point, no one cares who carried out the attack. Anyone seen rejoicing is a co-defendent in the case.
By the way, Palestinians and others working for foreign news agencies that took that footage (and other footage that various news agencies did not broadcast in their "even-handedness") have been threatened. A prominent Palestinian Authority member declared today that he could not guarantee their safety. Of course, this is not the first time reporters and cameramen have been threated by the Authority for taking or describing unfavorable footage. And it has worked, to the extent that the American (Turner) owned CNN International has been consistently biased, a most glaring recent incident being a Jerusalem neighborhood that had been repeatedly fired upon from Palestinian territories referred to as a "Jewish settlement south of Jerusalem". Well, I'm glad that many of my fellow Sub-Talkers are not afraid of facing up to the truth. That the "Palestinians should know the pain of such attacks..."--I think you missed there. They have been perpetrating attacks with the express purpose of killing civilians, both in their area as well as Israel proper. Israel has attacked their perpetrators. And it has attacked pre-emptively. Grievously, some innocent bystanders have been hurt, and yes it is painful. But if the U.S.A. had taken a pre-emptive strike on the basis of intelligence, the WTC would still be standing, and 10,000 more American citizens would be alive today. Grievously, some innocent bystanders might have gotten hurt. But the first obligation of every country is to protect ITS citizens.
>>> The fact that they can and did rejoice in our tragedy - shows that they are not fit to live in the community of civilized man. <<<
Is that really so much different than the (quieter) rejoicing of Americans seeing the pictures of smart bombs landing on Bagdad, including the one that hit an air raid shelter full of women and children at the start of Desert Storm? As I stated earlier, those Palestinians in the streets were not the ones who planned or carried out the attack against New York. Whatever their reason for rejoicing in the result, does not deserve a death penalty, and we would do well to understand why they reacted as they did.
In the ‘50s, a lot of eyes were opened about why Americans were universally hated around the globe when the book The Ugly American was published. In reaction, Americans did a great deal to improve their image, and became more popular. It is important to see ourselves as others see us.
Tom
Old Tom: I think you're getting real old. The Iraqis were told to leave Kuwait, a nation they invaded. Even the UN said so. They didn't so we were forced to go to war. To read your piece is to agree that you have the right to say what you feel you should. I also have the right to say that after reading it I want to throw up.
So if Afghanistan doesn't turn Bin Laden over then we get a new vieques
Fred,you are the history teacher. The only reason why there is a Kuaite(Spelling) is that the colonial Brits after WWI did not want to give too much power to one family to rule.Hense all the Arab States, I am not defending Saddam,I dispise the man, but historically he was right,Kuwait during the Otterman Rule was part of Iraq. But we will get off of that.The reason why Bush went into(Senior) Gulf War was toprotect his friends interests in the oil business in Texas. We discussed this in person,most of the problems in 3rd world countries, are the fault of the former European ColonialPoweres how the divided and conquered tribal and ethnic lands in Asia and Africa, now let us get back to trains
Tom, you are trying to sound like the voice of reason amid an angry mob. You may be right morally or ethically but revenge is highly under-rated.
The palestinian officials have repeatedly censored the news video coming from their little cesspool in the leeching field of the world. The CNN film that was shown has so galvanized the world against the palestinian savages that they have the largest public relations nightmare in their historyon their hands. If it was 300 - 3000 as reported and seen, it's believed that the vast majority of the populace shared in the savage revelry. A POX ON EVERY PALESTINIAN.
If you were Palistinian you might feel that the US supports terrorism, as most of the helicopter gunships used by Israel are provided by the US. Does this make us terrorists?
Does this make us terrorists?
The US withdrew from the World Court during the administration of Bush the elder rather than face censure for conducting government-sponsored terrorism (the illegal [by U.S. and international criteria] CIA war in Central America). Be careful what you ask for when you demand death for all terrorists.
Yes but I am thankfully not a Palestinian. I am an American. It was my city that was attacked. It was my country that was attacked. It was my way of life that was attacked. If the US had done 8 years ago what Israel has been doing for years, perhaps we'd be talking about trains today instead of waiting to hear how many thousands of innocent US citizens have died for some sick assholes in a cesspool half way around the world. Personally, I don't give a damn about the ethical issues of the centuries old war anymore. War has been declared on my country and I think it's time we responded - and I don't care if the response is measured or not.
I think you would find that a Palistinian feels that these 8 years have been payed for by the US, and that maybe we might be guilty of what many have been blaming on them. The people Identified by our government as the perps were Saudi and Egyption. This does not mean that those Governments sponsered the attacks. We trained Bin Ladin to destroy the Russian government of Afghanistan. If we stopped training these people in the first place they wouldn't be terrorists!
We trained Bin Ladin to destroy the Russian government of Afghanistan. If we stopped training these people in the first place they wouldn't be terrorists!
This illustrates the law of unintended consequences. Or maybe the story of Dr. Frankenstein and his monster.
Unintended consequences have bitten us in the ass.
Yes it certainly has and we must learn from it. At the time of the Cold War it was imperative for us to defeat the Russians in a vital Third World country. With Stinger missiles we succeeded in getting the Afghans to defeat the Russians and help end the Cold War in a US victory. However, we cannot turn our backs when one of "our former own" turns on us like he did. We must smash him.
"I think you would find that a Palistinian feels that these 8 years have been payed for by the US, and that maybe we might be guilty of what many have been blaming on them."
It doesn't matter what sick evil vermin think.
"We trained Bin Ladin to destroy the Russian government of Afghanistan. If we stopped training these people in the first place they wouldn't be terrorists! "
They'd still be terrorists, and they'd have gotten training elsewhere.
Alan Glick
And Seth, Nightrider, Old Tom, what the hell is hard to understand about that? We have been attacked, our people have been brutally killed. We are pissed off and we want revenge. When we find out who was responsible for it, then we want their blood. You don't want to do anything about it but sit on your hands becausee I have heard NOTHING from of what action, if any, we should undertake. That makes be believe you want to take no action. Why not just send aid to the Palestinians and apologize for our being in existence.
We also give the Palestinian Authorities about $75 million in aid a year, which makes up pretty damn generous terrorists, I guess.
Does this mean we don't know which side to support?
No, it means we already try to pay off the Palestinans to "be nice," the same way we give foreign aid in far larger sums annually to the Israelis and the Egyptians as a result of the Began-Sadat Camp David accords. And while most of us don't like watching some Egyptians join in celbration of the WTC attack, at least the country itself has (until now) lived up to its side of the accords. The Palestinians have come up a little short in adhering to the 1993 Oslo agreement, which got them the U.S. dinero in the first place.
Good response, but all indications so far point to other groups being involved in this action, not Palistinians.
Yes, but the point is they're wildly cheering the deaths of 10,000-20,000 people from a country that probably gives them as much aid as any other Arab nations outside of Saudi Arabia.
If they maintain the peace with Israel then you can at least justify the expence as a "necessary evil" even considering their apparent hatred for us (or at least the ones who know where the TV cameras are). But as it is now, $75 million for what's going on over there is money down a rathole.
it could only be 2% of them that feel that way.
Maybe. Anyway, if so that 2 percent sure do like to preen, squwak and celebrate for the TV networks, since they had no problem finding them (though supposedly some of those same camermen, who are also Palestinian, are now being threatened with death for transmitting those images).
If the KKK carried out an attack on a foreign country, and a group of white-collar KKK idiots were shown rejoicing in the streets, would that be reason enough to bomb this country into the ground?
Uhh...we're not talking about bombing the Palestinans into the ground here -- at least I'm not. I'm talking about giving the Palestinians $75 million in U.S. taxpayer dollars and getting nothing in return.
Cheering U.S. deaths isn't even the point the fact is the money was given as part of the Oslo accords, which are completely in tatters.
>>>Uhh...we're not talking about bombing the Palestinans into the ground here -- at least I'm not.<<<
I'm glad you cleared that up.
>>>I'm talking about giving the Palestinians $75 million in U.S. taxpayer dollars and getting nothing in return.<<<
That's the foreign policy of the US. I've a;ways questioned these things. I'm sure the government has it's reasons and interests.
It's like a lot of other government programs -- when it starts, you put some money in and hope that it works. And if it doesn't, then you still put more money in and hope that it works.
Same thing here -- the U.S. put the money in hoping the Oslo Accords would work; they haven't , but the U.S. isn't going to pull the money out because they don't want to lose influence both in the Gaza and West Bank, along with the Egyptians, Saudis and other moderate Arab states.
Here's the big lie again. The case is not that of just a small "group" of Arabs supporting this terrorist act. Are you really that blind?
Alan Glick
"If the KKK carried out an attack on a foreign country, and a group of white-collar KKK idiots were shown rejoicing in the streets, would that be reason enough to bomb this country into the ground?"
"The case is not that of just a small "group" of Arabs supporting this terrorist act."
Prove it.
Seth
Mr. Glick's vast knowledge of the middle east appears to be based on the same info the rest of us have lived with, although he appears to have interpretid it differently than those of us who disagree.
I have known many Palistinians as well as Israelies who don't agree with the respective policies of their militant brothers and sisters. Yes I have met a few who are as racist as some of the opinions here today. They have been in the small minority.
Would like to hear from both of these groups here.
Yes, they wish the militants were more agressive.
Alan Glick
"I have known many Palistinians ...who don't agree with the respective policies of their militant brothers and sisters."
Nightrider: I have no argument with that. But those people who abhor what took place must come out and make their positions crystal clear. They must denouce in the harshest terms the actions of those rotten bastards that attacked our country.
Watch the news, read the papers, open your mind.
Alan Glick
If the disgusting and pathetic KKK did anything of the sort, we would take care of them ourselves since we all know what a horsebleep group that is.
Once again we have that magic word "IF and if my grandmother had balls ............... The fact is that the KKK are domestic terrorists and this government does not give them sanctuary - it prosecutes them. This was a poor analogy -- not worthy of you.
A few months ago, someone would have said IF two planes crashed into the WTC and it would've been met with the same response. Anything is possible as we all know.
I don't know if you were trying to give me an off hand compliment in that last sentence, or if it was an insult.
Well let me jump into this if I may. Our reactions to the tragedy were a little different, but I was very impressed with your handling of your reactions. You spoke common sense, and so if it is a compliment you're looking for, then you've got one coming from me because, friend, you have earned it. Keep up the good posts, and if you see me go overboard a little, be there for me to show me a more seasoned path. Have a great weekend.
Thank you very much Fred. I really appreciate that.
Give us a link!
A link? Glad to oblige, my boy, glad to oblige...
Enigmatic Bin Laden greeted as new hero by Palestinian youths
Checked your link, only indicated less then 20 quotes, many of which were from admitted members of terrorist groups.
What, we got a quote quota now before a story can be considered viable?
No. It just doesn't agree with what I have been reading and seeing, so I would like to see the reports.
Well, the story is from the French Press Agency, which historically has not been considered freindly towards Israel in the focus of its Middle East reporting, if that's any guide.
Thanks
Well you saw one. What do you think?
A group of children near east Jerusalem's Old City as news of the attacks spread
This picture makes all of us sick.
>>> This picture makes all of us sick <<<
I agree, but I hope American foreign policy will not be dictated by a reaction to Palestinian children. The accompanying text shows that the glee shown by the children is not the general reaction of most Arab leaders.
Tom
Arab leader are masters at lying. The average Arab however doesn't have the ability to cover up his true feelings. This is not just chidren. Where do you think these children learned their hatred from?
Alan Glick
"I agree, but I hope American foreign policy will not be dictated by a reaction to Palestinian children. The accompanying text shows that the glee shown by the children is not the general reaction of most Arab leaders.
Tom"
Why bother presenting this person with facts? Even if you gave him quotes from every single Arab in the area, he'd just come up with some other lie to evade the truth.
Alan Glick
That seems to be the case. Maybe they should move to Gaza.
Or less
Our government indicated that a few thousand Palistinians rejoiced. What about the several hundred thousand who didn't rejoice. We have our own anarchists who are just as thick headed as the small percentage who celebrated.
Nightrider,
You seem to have an interesting description of terrorism. Per your seeming definition, targeting either a) an empty building, after warning the occupants to evacuate, or b) an individual who has planned and is planning attacks on your populace, is terrorism. Under the standard definition, neither one qualifies; the first is at worst vandalism, and the second a legitimate attack on an enemy soldier in wartime. On the other hand, what do you consider an individual who blows himself up in a restaurant crowded with women, childeren, and other innocent civilians? A hero? A _shahid_ (martyr), destined to go directly to heaven to enjoy a life of luxury with seventy black-eyed virgens for company? If the target was purely military, I may disagree with the bomber and hope he fails, but at least the target is a combatant; when he targets teen-agers and families enjoying a pizza outing, I find both the bomber and those who support him beyond contempt.
subfan
I didn't say either side is right. The Palistinians have their problem people just as we do. Anyone who watches the destruction caused by anarchists here in the US knows that there are people of all races that cause problems. Denying the Palistinians the water under their own territory affects many people other than the militants. As I have said in other posts, if we want to stop terrorism we need to stop training those same terrorists before they become terrorists.
No terrorist is in the right, and any innocent people harmed by terrorism anywhere is wrong. Yes we provide aid to the Palistinians, but we don't give them the military support that we give to Israel. Anyone who has seen the dead children (collateral damage) in Palestine should know that neither side is completly in the right.
We need to change our aid to other countries to be a reward for their peaceful relations with their neighbors.
Nightrider,
Your treatment of these acts as morally equivalent is astonishing. To my feeble mind, at least, there is a bit of a difference between a side that mourns the loss of all life, and has repeatedly tried to negotiate a just solution, and a side that distributes candy in celebration when inocents are killed. As one who served in the Israeli forces, I can tell you from personal experience that I have _never_ seen a case where childeren were deliberately targeted with lethal force. Yes, at times they may have ended up in the line of fire when PA gunmen fired from positions in the midst of crowds, however, there were _always_ strict orders for soldiers not to open fire unless their lives were in danger. You are must either have an agenda, in which case I am wasting my time discussing this with you, or are ignorant enough of the situation to truly believe what you say. I hope it is the latter, as ignorance is always curable with knowledge; deliberately fooling oneself, however, is terminal.
I will not proceed further in this thread, as it is off-topic and threatens to become acrimonious; I do hope, however, that you further educate yourself about the situation before you go off calling an appropriate military response "terrorism".
subfan
Appropriate response is not terrorism. Blaming a whole nation for the actions of a few is the problem.
It is the policy of the Afghan government to shield bin Laden. That fact alone justifies ending Afghan history. Also they are holding several American citizens for the "crime" of proselytizing Christianity. Hand 'em over, DOGS, then prepare to live under Russian rule, that is, if you survive the pacification phase.
Russian rule?
They don't deserve Russian rule.
Be prepared to live under Plutonian and Uranian rule. That is Plutonium and Uranium.
Sorry but no matter how many times you repeat this lie it won't catch on. We know that there are whole nations that support yesterday's act. And so do you.
Alan Glick
"Appropriate response is not terrorism. Blaming a whole nation for the actions of a few is the problem."
Still would like to see a link indicating this.
You have seen some links and if you read the papers you would see some connections that have been made. You are getting more pathetic by the minute.
Damn you!!!! I ask you again and again and again, what would you do? What would you do to remedy the harm and volience and death and destruction heaped on our people Monday. Stop apologizing for those terrorists. If you're a God-Damn Middle East Terrorist sympathizer, come right out and say it because many of use now believe it. I Think you want the United States to do nothing and take part of the blame for what happened. If that is true, then I damn you.
Remember also that the Taliban does not represent the whole Afghani population. Most Afghanis are prisoniers of their own government.
Andrew
Terrorists intentionally target innocents. So any Palestinian who believes that the US and/or Israel supports terrorism is either an idiot or a lying little scum-bag.
Alan Glick
"If you were Palistinian you might feel that the US supports terrorism, as most of the helicopter gunships used by Israel are provided by the US. Does this make us terrorists?"
What the Palestinians have succeeded in doing is blurring the meaning of the word terrorism to you and unfortunately to many others. Terrorism is the willful attempt to murder, maim, and otherwise terrorize innocent civilians indiscriminately. Until you and others around the world understand this fully, terrorists and their sponsors will continue to thrive and prey upon your fellow innocent civilians around the world.
>>> revenge is highly under-rated. <<<
Dude;
I certainly realize how satisfying revenge is. But it is an emotional response rather than an intellectual one. Actions based on emotions can lead to regrets later on. The calls by various posters that the United States strike against (or even wipe out) all Arabs regardless of their culpability for the attack on the WTC is not rational.
Fortunately, despite their ranting, most Subtalkers will take no direct action against innocent Arabs living in the United States. Most because thy do not have the guts to murder an innocent person face to face (but would be happy to have the U.S. do it with nuclear strikes), and some because somewhere inside they realize it is the wrong thing to do. I count you in with the latter group.
Tom
While their have been isolated incidents so far in the United States, I think the restraint shown by 99.9 percent of all Americans has been exemplary. However, if the FBI investigation reveals that those involved have created a covert terrorist network within the U.S. and that people in the Arab/Muslim community knew about it but did nothing (ostensibly because the terror would be directed at Israel or abroad and not domestically) then I fear the reaction either in physical violence or legal action, will be far more severe.
Tom,
I must disagree with you; I would tend to doubt that there were very many Americans at all who celebrated the accidental bombing of an Iraqi air raid shelter. While we may have celebrated the destruction of Saddam's military, Americans in general do not celebrate the loss of life of innocent civilians, even if they are citizens of an enemy state. "Collateral damage" is a tragic but unavoidable fact of war which civilized people mourn; celebrating the deaths of innocent civilians deliberately targeted by acts of terror, be it in the US or overseas, is the sign of a people that is both sickening and morally sick.
subfan
Some people have a knee jerk reaction to all events: "My Country, Right or Wrong."
Others have the knee-jerk reaction: "My Country Is Always Wrong."
Both at times try to defend the indefensible. To do the latter is a situation like this is both bizarre and sickening.
While we may have celebrated the destruction of Saddam's military
Except the United States didn't destroy Saddam's military. Bush pere stopped far short of Bagdad, even though the U.S. troops probably wouldn't have encountered much resistance, and in effect let Saddam off the hook with at least some of his armed forces intact. I suspect this lesson has not been lost on Bush fils, so with any luck the U.S. military response, when it comes, will be decisive. I don't believe the American public would stand for anything else.
I had thought that this was because there were no high-profile Iraqi resistance groups that could have taken power. Had the United States destroyed the Hussein regime, it would either have to have a long and costly occupation, or allow a power vacuum that could be filled, likely by Iran.
It is most likely the administration felt that it was much better to just leave Saddam weakened.
Under the current circumstances, few would be against elimination of states and occupation. I personally don't think one more American life should be wasted on defeating the scum that perpetrated this. That is why I am in full support of a nuclear attack.
Saddam and Bin Ladin were products of the CIA...
Blow back.. Remember that word.
It can be a real B*tch.
Exactly
Slight clarification -- Saddam was a Soviet client when he took power 28 years ago and was mouthing all this secular socialist stuff that made his allies to the north feel all warm and fuzzy inside. He kept up this stuff until it was in his interest to become more of a traditional Islamist after going to war with Iran in 1980, because all the other Gulf states and Egypt were afraid Khomeni was trying to export his Islamic revolution to their counties and the Soviets were tied up in Afghanistan (where we were helping bin Laden's allies).
It was at that time, under the rule of "an enemy of my enemy is my friend," that the U.S. began supporting Saddam, since the war started about 11 months after the Ayatollah's supporters took our embassy people hostage, and we backed him in some way for the next 10 years after that, though he still maintained his Soviet contacts until the Eastern Block went kerblooey in 1989.
Well, Tom, in the first place the vast majority (nearly all) of smart weapons in the Gulf war fell on military targets, and civilian casualties were kept to an absolute minimum. The bomb shelter targeting was a mistake, but Saddam Hussein shares in responsibility for that. That was truly inadvertent on our part.
But you are right in that we should not rejoice in the killing of civilians any more than the other side should.
Perhaps it would be better to try to understand why Palestinians were celebrating in the streets?
Again, as I said to another subtalker, why do tragic incidents like this, always bring out the most moronic posts?
Even though I have feelings that this attack has come from abroad -- I can't let a 'gut' reaction lead me down a blind alley of hatred...
I suppose you're right. Dropping a few megatons on Kabul would be satisfying - and I'd support it 101% if that's where blame is found to lie - but rushing to judgment is not advisable.
As with the Cuban Missile Crisis -- when U.N. Ambassador Adalai Stevenson produced the reconnosence photos in the General Assembly to prove the Russians were building missle launching platforms in Cuba -- when the U.S. attack finally comes the government must be able to provide conclusive evidence that whatever country is targeted and whoever the terrorist is were involved in the attacks.
To make a halfhearted effort to attack bin Laden, like in August 1998, while bombing a Sudanese plant that may or may not have been making chemical weapons, is to invite the chance of not only hitting the wrong target but also of losing the moral authority and justification for retaliation most nations of the world will allow us at this time.
"As with the Cuban Missile Crisis -- when U.N. Ambassador Adalai Stevenson produced the reconnosence photos in the General Assembly to prove the Russians were building missle launching platforms in Cuba -- when the U.S. attack finally comes the government must be able to provide conclusive evidence that whatever country is targeted and whoever the terrorist is were involved in the attacks."
That was true in the early 60s when there were 4 super-powers. In reality, the US is the only 500 Lb. gorilla left and can pretty much make its own terms. The worst that'll happen is that the UN will pack up and leave.
The UN pack up and leave!!!!!! Well, I'm just so fucking sad about that possibililty that I come to tears. Who gives a rat's ass about the UN anyway. We would be better off out of there, and then we can tear down the damn building and use the property to build nice middle income housing for the surviving victims of this tragedy.
Are you sure you are not a member of the John Brich Society,and yes get the UN out of the USA
Cut the crap Bob. This is serious shit.
Yes but this is not the forum for it.We allfeelthe way you do, and I need a new keyboard because this one gets stuck,and read my e mail to you
Absolutely ... and by the way, I was posting to subtalk from hillbilly heaven up here when it occurred, so you guys are my alibi. :)
That all said, what we're hearing up here is that there is a trail to whoever did this, now working its way through Florida. All I can pray is that whoever perpetrated this gets to stand trial in the city where they can have some genuine NYC justice.
As to the NYCT folks, who like the rest of us outside the city are cut off from communications, try to send an email if you can to the authority and offer duty. That would at least demonstrate your attempt to show for work. City's still closed from what I hear and you'd need special permits to get in I would expect.
My sympathies to everyone.
What happened at Oklahoma the suspects weren't suicide bombers, unlike this one. While walking home from Times Sq toward Queensboro Plaza yesterday (via 34th St ferry) one man screamed behind me "first Oklahoma, and now this!!" I didn't want to bother correcting him at that moment....
We should wait until the official word before we fully burn the asses of those responsible. They have absolutely no regard for human life, so why should we towards them?
They have absolutely no regard for human life, so why should we towards them?
Those who did this are not human. They are cancerous malignancies on society and need to be treated as such. They gave up any claims to humanity when they allowed themselves to be brainwashed into murdering thousands of innocent people in the name of their religion.
-- David
Chicago, IL
>>> They gave up any claims to humanity when they allowed themselves to be brainwashed into murdering thousands of innocent people in the name of their religion. <<<
When did you learn they were Catholics?? :-)
Tom
Tom, you make me sick
It is important to try to identify who did this - could be homegrown terrorists too. If it is shown they came from a foreign country, though, it may not be unreasonable to expect that that country's sovereignty will be temporarily suspended while the US/NATO makes certain adjustments.
>>> It is time to eliminate the nations that sponsor and support international terrorism. <<<
Naturally you will exclude the United States, particularly New York and Boston which allowed their citizens to support the IRA for years with generous cash donations (called winter relief) to buy arms and explosives while the IRA was planting bombs and killing civilians in London. Not to mention the anti-Castro Cubans in Florida who have been trying to sabotage the Cuban regime for more than 40 years.. It is ironic how one person's "freedom fighter" is another's terrorist.
Tom
IRA terrorists and Cuban Terrorists are not a threat to my security. Frankly, I think that they threaten the security of the US too and should be deported for exactly that argument of a double standard. However liberal organizations like the ACLU would fight my contention. As for the Arab cells in Brooklyn & Boston - I'm sure they will get plenty of attention now.
What I don't understand, if your Dr. found a pre-cancerous cell, you'd be thrilled if he removed it. We must view international terrorists as all pre-cancerous cells - ready to become full-blown cancer.
I agree 100%. I'm hoping that all Middle Eastern countries who sponsor terrorism, whether or not they were directly involved in yesterday's attacks, should bear the brunt of massive retaliation. This includes Libya, Iraq, Iran, Afghanistan, Sudan, the Palestinians, and possibly even our "allies" of Saudi Arabia and the United Arab Emerites. Even if they weren't directly involved yesterday, they've been providing little more than a wink and a nod when terrorism groups operated on their soil over the past two decades. Our retaliation needs to be so massive that no other group will even think of launching a terrorist attack against us for generations to come.
As for the other civilized nations of the world, the time has come to stand up either with us or against us. Normally I'm in favor of a multilateral approach on matters of global importance, such as the environment for example, but I don't think we should be wasting much time to discuss this in committee with the other world powers before deciding on yet another "measured response". Our action needs to be swift and massive, and the other world powers need to offer their support unconditionally the same way we did with them in World War II, or get the fuck out of the way.
-- David
Chicago, IL
>>> IRA terrorists and Cuban Terrorists are not a threat to my security. Frankly, I think that they threaten the security of the US too and should be deported for exactly that argument of a double standard. <<<
Of course those who are U.S. citizens cannot be deported even if they support foreign terrorism. I certainly agree that our government should do what it can to prevent support of terrorism from within the United States, but it is too extreme to suggest that entire nations be eliminated (genocide) if some of their people commit terrorism and that government is not able to prevent it. The position that we should wipe out whole nations because we have the ability to do so is more immoral than the terrorist acts which cost 10,000 innocent lives. Of course we can look to history for moral leadership and perhaps just wipe out a single village (or city) such as was done with Lidice. :-)
Tom
"...it is too extreme to suggest that entire nations be eliminated (genocide) if some of their people commit terrorism and that government is not able to prevent it."
This is a false statement. It is not the case that only "some" Afghans suport Bin Laden. Furthermore, the government there actively supports Bin Laden.
"The position that we should wipe out whole nations because we have the ability to do so is more immoral than the terrorist acts which cost 10,000 innocent lives.
Another false statement. No one is saying that we should wipe out nations merely because we can. What we are saying is that we should wipe out nations that launch war against us. Especially when such war is conducted through such cowardly acts as attacking innocent civilians, especially when they have been lauchning such acts of war against us repeatedly.
"Of course we can look to history for moral leadership and perhaps just wipe out a single village (or city) such as was done with Lidice. :-)
Tom"
Another false statement. Likening America's just response to an attack on innocent civilians with the criminal genocide against Lidice doesn't stand the test of truth. Of course terrorists (and those who support them) never have had anything to do with truth in the first place.
Alan Glick
>>> It is not the case that only "some" Afghans suport Bin Laden. <<<
You know that all Afghans support Bin Laden? That includes babies suckling at their mothers' breasts and sheep herders who do not even know where Kabul is? How about the resistence movement that just attacked Kabul with missiles?
>>> No one is saying that we should wipe out nations merely because we can. What we are saying is that we should wipe out nations that launch war against us. <<<
You need to look further up the thread. It is obvious without saying that one needs the capability to wipe out a nation to do it. What is missing in the prior posts is the sense of morality which requires that retaliation be against those who caused the injury, not every man woman and child who happen to look like them, and lives in the same area the world.
>>> Likening America's just response to an attack on innocent civilians with the criminal genocide against Lidice doesn't stand the test of truth. <<<
First of all the atrocity at Lidice was too small to be called genocide. But the idea of killing millions of civilians and to wipe a nation from the earth is certainly no more moral than the attack on the innocent civilians in New York, and certainly cannot be considered a just response. Any leader of a country doing that would rightly be considered committing a crime against humanity.
I am truly sorry to see the number of racist and xenophobic posts on this board following this incident. I am certainly glad that those who would immediately rain atomic bombs on the middle east in "retaliation" do not have the power to do so, and I hope that most of you will reread your posts after several days, and realize you are better than your "final solutions" make you seem.
Tom
Amen
"You know that all Afghans support Bin Laden? That includes babies suckling at their mothers' breasts and sheep herders who do not even know where Kabul is? How about the resistence movement that just attacked Kabul with missiles?"
i would not let concern over a small minority of innocents detract me from exacting retribution on the guilty. We cannot fight a war without incurring some loss of innocent lives. I am comforted by the fact that these countries that do support terrorism have less such innocents than other countries.
"I am truly sorry to see the number of racist and xenophobic posts on this board following this incident."
And I am sorry to see the number of SubTalkers who are defending terrorists and those who aid them.
"I am certainly glad that those who would immediately rain atomic bombs on the middle east in "retaliation" do not have the power to do so..."
Guess again. Bush is not your kind of appeasing, bleeding heart, type.
"I hope that most of you will reread your posts after several days, and realize you are better than your "final solutions" make you seem."
There is nothing wrong with wishing for a final solution to evil. Those whom you're trying to protect are doomed. Good riddance to all such sub-human vermin.
Alan Glick
Sieg heil!
Actually it is the Arabs who have allied themselves with Nazi propaganda.
Would you say "Seig Heil" to those who wished death on the perpatrators of the Holocaust? Yet that is what you are doing here by maligning those of us who feel a righteous indignation at terrorists. Your friend's days are numbered. They'll be in hell and there's no amount of lies you can tell to change that fact.
Alan Glick
They are not my friends and your indignation is not righteous.
Tell that to the relatives who lost loved ones.
Alan Glick
"...your indignation is not righteous."
Alan, after the Presidential Election, you sent me an unsolicited e mail supporting President Bush. I responded very negatively at the time. But, you know, Bush is making all the right moves in this crisis. Please, Mr Bush, DO NOT listen to those who would let state sponsors of terrorism off the hook, if ANY nation sponsored this, it's history should come to an end. Alan, I want you to know that not all Democrats support a wishy-washy response to these murderous pig/monkeys. If any terrorists are found alive, they should be fed to hungry tusk hogs alive. GO BUSH
I think in this case, Bush is following the lessons of his father in assembling the Gulf War coalition before attacking Iraq. Of course, that took nearly five months to do, and I know he doesn't have that long in this situation. But getting the NATO vote tonight and getting as much diplomatic support as possible on the record before making your case for attacking the terrorists and their home country is the best course. As it stands now only rouge states will condemn the U.S. if attacks after being able to prove who did it and what country has supported the terrorists.
I wonder what some of these people would be saying if some of their loved ones were victims of this tragedy. I can tell you they would be singing an entirely different tune.
Well said. Thankfully there are still some rational, reasonable people.
Seth
If the U.S. decides that bin Laden is the culprit and is in Afghanistan, then it will be up to the Taliban's leaders to decide their own country's fate.
If the U.S. demands the Taliban turn over bin Laden and they pretty much tell us to stick it up our asses, do you really think we're going to go spend the next year arguing the case at the United Nations Security Council or in front of the World Court at The Hague?
Yes I do-----that is if the mealy mouths and do gooder liberals have anything to say about it. I've seen that already on this site, people already making excuses why we should more or less let the thing slide. That is disgusting. Get this, surgical strikes, sanctions, UN debates and the like will not solve this problem. Massiive detruction and retaliation of a grand scale just might.
World War III would solve nothing, and would be the result of any massive military action that was not supported by most of the world.
You will soon see how incredibly wrong this statement was.
Alan Glick
"World War III would solve nothing, and would be the result of any massive military action that was not supported by most of the world."
I guess you have not been watching the news coverage. From NATO to the rest of the free world and beyond - it seems the only nations who do not understand the need for a massive response are the rogue states that support terrorism. I don't think you'll see WWIII. I think it'll be more like shooting the slow-moving ducks on the bottom row.
DESTROY AFGHANISTAN TOTALLY, THEN GIVE IT TO RUSSIA ALONG WITH IRAN WE SHOULD ALSO DESTROY IRAQ AND USE IT AS A "GAS STATION"/MILITARY BASE
I hope you know, all the cry baby liberals, and self-hating Americans are going to attack your post.
If we don't destroy the countries who support people like Bin Laden, terrorists, and the countries they operate out of, will be empowered by yesterday's attacks. An example must be set.
But we're the United States, and chances are we'll invade Afghanistan, attempt to bring Laden back to the US for trial, to show the rest of the world we're civilized.
Why did we train Bin Laden then?
Because after the hostages were taken by Iran in November, 1979 and the Soviets invaded Afghanistan seven weeks later, we saw a totalitarian/Communist dominance of the Eastern Persian Gulf and on two sides of Pakistan, which at the time was more of our ally than the Soviet Union, which Indira Ghanda preferred over the U.S. (which goes back to hostility over the British mandate in India before the 1948 partition of India, East Pakistan and West Pakistan, and the perceived U.S.-British alliance over the next 30 years tilting towards the Pakistanis).
There was nothing we could do in Iran both because of our support of the Shah from 1953 onward to his fall in January 1979 -- we had pissed too many people off there in another effort to block Soviet access to the Persian Gulf -- and the hostages held by the Ayatollah's supporters at the U.S. embassy. But we could arm the native Afghanis who were opposed to the Soviet govenment and the puppet regime they had set up (the pro-Soviet Afghani leader was assassinated at the end of December 1979 because he wasn't pro-Soviet enough).
Unfortunately, the strongest resistance force were the militant Islamists, which at the time both the Carter and Reagan admiinstrations considered to be the lesser of the two evils to the Soviet Union. So we trained them, including bin Laden, in guerilla warfare.
The U.S. was able to turn Afghanistan into the Soviet Union's Vietnam, which probably did as much to hasten their downfall as the Reagan direct military build-up of the 1980s did. But once the militants were in charge there, they began imposing their own beliefs, which turned out to be more draconian than even Iran's Islamic laws. And they also believe in supporting attacks on what they see as Islam's one remaining main enemy, the West, led by the United States.
A perfect, and tragic example of the Law of Unintended Consequences.
Good response. The thing that makes freedom strong (not the US) is the freedom to express our differences without killing each other.
An excellent extension of what you're saying from the New York Times:
"Americans must rethink how to safeguard the country without bartering away the rights and privileges of the free society that we are defending. The temptation will be great in the days ahead to write draconian new laws that give law enforcement agencies — or even military forces — a right to undermine the civil liberties that shape the character of the United States. President Bush and Congress must carefully balance the need for heightened security with the need to protect the constitutional rights of Americans. That includes Americans of Islamic descent, who could now easily became the target for another period of American xenophobia and ethnic discrimination."
Seth
Thank You.
It's ok Alan, Old Tom just had a departure from reality. He will get back with the program soon enough when he sees those pictures and watches those filthy Palestinians dancing and celebrating in the streets at our misfortune.
I won't look the other way. I will look towards Israel and cheer with all my energy.
Palestine is a fiction, Judea and Sumeria will be retaken.
It is difficult to think clearly in the midst of such unthinkable tragedies as happened today. But to lash out in anger, to immediately seek the maximum amount of blood in revenge, is to become the same as those who struck us.
And to do so, is to play directly into their hands.
Let's deal with the rescue and recovery first, get the facts, and take decisive action which comes from our heads and our hearts, but not from fear and anger.
We are better than this.
I must disagree. This is an act of war. This is a simple act of carnage that is inhuman and dispicable. It must be dealt with strongly. If this is not dealt with in a strong response then it leads the road open for more terrorist attacks in the future. The Palestinians dancing in the street is just a testament of how inhuman and disgusting these people are. I have a problem killing human beings. However people who show such little value for life are not human in my mind. If wiping out the threat of terrorism requires the killing of some of these malicious and vicious people, then so be it. The only way to wipe out terrorism is to effectively destroy and wipe out its infastructure. The only way to do this is militarily punish those responsible and those nations that harbor terrorists as well as those that financially support them. An example must be made of these people so that this national tragedy will never happen again. The nation will not be completely secure until Osama Bin Laden, his followers are dead and their infastructure destroyed.
Wrong. To seek retribution and punishment for those guilty of this evil act is just. It is a fact of life that violence committed by an agressor against an innocent peoples us can only be stopped once and for all by an overwheling act of punitive destruction. To do nothing is to play into the hands of those who wish us all dead.
Alan Glick
"It is difficult to think clearly in the midst of such unthinkable tragedies as happened today. But to lash out in anger, to immediately seek the maximum amount of blood in revenge, is to become the same as those who struck us."
You're looking at more dead in this act alone than that of the entire Vietnam War. That alone justifies a nuclear response.
Eric Dale Smith
I'm assuming you mean American casualties (and that's an extreme). Otherwise your statement is proposterous.
Just as long as you are not advocating a "measured response:. If you are, then go to hell on this one.
For once, I have to agree with you.
Q7----A good piece of advice is to agree with Train Dude more. You'll be better off for it. That man talks real stuff, not bs.
One nice 100 megaton H bomb[or 2] will do.
Biggest nuke I've ever heard of is the Russian SS-9 - 20MT - and not only are they obsolete, they've been decommisioned. I think they still have some of their 2.2MT SS-18, SS-19 and SS-20s. The U.S. Minuteman missiles are in the 1.5MT range. I can't conceive of a warhead with a yield 1000 times that of Hiroshima, which was just 20KT.
wayne
I've heard the term "firecracker" used to describe the atom bomb dropped on Hiroshima.
The SS-9 was equipped with that size warhead because of its inaccuracy. Aim it at NY, and it is as likely to hit Wichita, KS.
Agreed. We should also use a nerve gas and make them die very slowly. Over days.
Thank you.Usually I don't support the destruction of countries or races,but kill the bastards if we have to
The appropriate response is to wipe out the 5 nations that support and give refuge to known terrorist groups. Syria, Lybia, Iraq, Palestine and Afghanastan need to be flattened and paved over.
That's too nice. Besides, it's a lot of paving. The region you have just outlined is the world ghetto. They need to be dug out and sent to outer space. The only problem is, what do we do with the Arabs that are already in the USA? Some of them are here because they dislike their home country, others are here because they are working for the terrorist organizations in their home country. The only way to control these people is by wrecking such damage upon their race and identity that nobody would ever dare to try it again, whatever their race or identity.
I'm with Train Dude on this one. Go kick some ass.
To assume that Arabs are responsible for this suicide attack is not at all stupid, just premature at this point. Arabs have carried out mass suicide terrorism repeatedly, with the express purpose of killing as many innocent civilians, particularly babies and children as possible. So, the assumption is logical, not stupid, which is a whole lot more than can be said of your post. It's time that you and others who share your opinion wake up to the fact that there are people who do not share American values of the supreme importance of human life, rather to them every soul is only a pawn in a political game. As a former New Yorker, I cry what happened to my birthplace. MY CONDOLENCES GO OUT TO ALL OF YOU.
This is by far the worst day of my life. Some of you might know that I worked (emphasis on the past tense) at 2WTC, now gone.
I ran when the first plane hit. I was on the ground when the second plane hit my building. I've been running ever since.
God bless all my friends whom I know did not escape in time. Death to everyone responsible for this incomprehensible disaster.
Now that I will get behind.
I will pray for you and all of you who had to endure that terror.
The nation has once again and I think for all time lost it's sense of security. I've lost it to be sure. It changes a person to have that feeling of safety ripped off of you like an undeserved award. It can never be replaced.
If it's even proper to say, I'm happy for those of you who made it
I'm still in utter shock. Everything I knew outside my family is gone. I have no job. Friends are dead. And I don't know who to blame.
Thank GOD you are safe. I pray for the best for you in the aftermath of all this.
Sincerely,
Fred Donaher
Chris,
I thank God for all the lives that were spared in this tragedy today, despite the absolutely horrifying nature of these incidents. If its appropriate, I do have one question for you: was there any kind of warning before the plane hit, since it was hijacked from Boston? I would hope that someone might notice a min or 2 before it crashed in. -Nick
Absolutley none. I did not even know what happened until 10 minutes after the second plane hit tower #2.
Just saw two jet fighters cross Harlem and turn left down the Hudson.
I've heard several flyby's from my apartment window, can't see them though..
B"H
likewise here in brooklyn.
B"H
scratch that...just saw an F-14/15 pass by flying west...whee.
BSD
Could be either; the Navy has two carriers off the NYC coast and the Air Force and/or Air Guard has units operating nearby.
Those should be F-16's patrolling the NY skies after word came out that there was another airliner headed from Boston for a kamikazee run into anther New York target.
BMTman
I wouldn't be surprised if the military did shoot down that United Airlines jet that crashed near Pittsburgh, as horrible a thing as that is to say. After the first three attacks and with the woman's cell phone call that the plane was being hijacked and was heading towards Washington, I don't think the Air Force was going to allow it to get anywhere near the White House or the U.S. Capitol.
I have my doubts that Flight 93, which crashed near Johnstown, was shot down. First, I don't think the Air Force had fighter jets patrolling the skies over Johnstown, Pennsylvania - certainly not an hour after the original attacks. At that time, as I understand it, there were still dozens of commercial flights all over the place that had not landed yet, and those certainly didn't get shot down. Also, I don't think that a plane near Johnstown is going to be seen as posing a clear and present danger to any major metropolitan area or government facility. Given that there was a cell phone call made that the plane had been hijacked, my guess is that the hijackers were able to take control of the plane but were not as well-versed in flying it as they thought, and they accidentally crashed it long before getting to whatever their destination was.
I heard an eyewitness account on the radio here in Syracuse - he said the plane in Pennsylvania looked like it was coming in for a landing, but flipped over after it hit the ground. No mention that it was trailing smoke or had any other damage that would be indicative of an attack.
Jim D.
That's possible, and in a worse case scenario (which this is) far more perferrable to my suggesstion, since there will be recriminations about this down the line once the shock wears off and some sort of action is taken.
We'll have to wait for the recovery of the voice and data recorders from the planes to find out more about what exactly took place.
It may have been destined to crash at Camp David, MD.
Or the Sears Tower in Chicago.
Dan
CNN reported that there was a vote by the passengers to try to take back the plane from the hijackers. (Told to someone on the ground via cell phone from the plane.) Nothing else was said since the phone went dead. Perhaps a struggle in the cockpit forced the plane down earlier than it was supposed to.
You morer than likely saw and heard some F-14's and F/A-18's from
USS George Washington and USS John F. Kennedy.
G.W. and her battle group consist of guided missile cruisers
Leyte Gulf,
Monterey,
Hue City,
Vicksburg
Vella Gulf;
guided missile destroyers
Ramage
Ross;
Supply Ship Detroit. (Detroit was inport Earle NJ and the 2 crewmembers I spoke to saw the whole thing. Also, USS Bataan is enroute to augment the hosptals with her 600 bed facilities. Hospital Ship USNS Comfort, USS Iwo Jima, and USS Theodore Roosevelt and others are on full standby to haul ass to cover DC, NYC waterways on SHORT notice.
The Naval Base here in Norfolk is under full alert and we have aircraft flying over 24/7 like NYC.
I JUST WANTED TO LET EVERYONE KNOW THAT I AM OK. i AM JUST WAITING FOR MY MOM AND BROTHER TO GET HOME SAFELY. MY BROTHER WORKS AT THE DEPARTMENT OF JUVENILE JUSTICE AT CANAL. HE SAW ALOT BEING HE IS ONE SUBWAY STOP FROM WTC. I HOPE ALL OF YOU ARE OK. MY PRAYERS GO OUT TO YOU ALL. MAY GOD HELP US AND BE WITH THOSE IN FEAR AND NEED.
HOWEVER, LIKE BILL PULLMAN SAID IN INDEPENDENCE DAY, WE WILL NOT GHO QUIETLY INTO THE NIGHT, WE WILL NOT VANISH WITHOUT A FIGHT WE WILL LIVE ON AND WE WILL SURVIVE.
THESE EVIL MEN MUST PAY. SOMEONE IS GONNA PAY FOR THIS AND I AM NOT TALKIN MONEYWISE IF U KNOW WHAT I AM SAYIN!!
RIGHT NOW MY MOM IS AWAITING A LONG ISLAND RAILROAD TRAIN TO FAR ROCKAWAY OR LONG BEACH TO STOP AT ROSEDALE. MY BROTHER IS STRANDED AT 34TH STREET. HE NEEDS AN E. HOPEFULLY HE WILL DECIDE TO TAKE THE F. I CANNOT CONTACT HIM BECAUSE CELL PHONES ARE DOWN AND HE IS IN THE SUB WAY ANYWAY
All clear up here.
I am back here after going out to refill my Metrocard otherwise it would run out. I woke up a little after 9am today, when a friend called me and told me of the WTC attack. For me, seeing the towers collapse, right on TV was just too much to bear. They crumbled like a deck of cards. It was frightening. I am scared for everyone, everywhere, especially those in Manhattan. South of Canal street it is all closed. I wonder what the scene in East Broadway is like, in Chinatown. And the Borders at the WTC mall I used to go to. Borders is probably gone also.
I took the 12:25pm N27 to Hempstead. It was ontime, and was running good. I was still scared though, that maybe the bus would be attacked. I sat by the front door. There was a traffic jam at 25a and Glen Cove road, 25a going west was blocked off for security reasons. The rest of trip was unusually quick, and when I got off at Hempstead the driver all wished us well. I went in the Hempstead Transit Center, refilled my card then security was saying that no one was allowed to wait inside the building. There were no LIRR trains at Hempstead. I took the N27 back to Greenvale. The ride was quick. Roosevelt Field mall was closed. And my favorite eatery in Greenvale, Szechuan Express was closed. I was not suprised, the staff there lives in Chinatown. I hope they are OK.
I went to Wendy's then walked home, I just wanted to walk everything was gridlock. Now they say 7 WTC has collapsed. This is a disaster of Pearl Harbor proportions, maybe even worse.
WTC is gone. And probably thousands of innocent lives have gone with it. My confidence in the safety and security of NYC has been destroyed. I do not know when I will be able to return to NYC. It will be some time, maybe a month before I can even think of going into Manhattan.
I guess everyone is OK.
The thing is, is this nation OK ?
The apprehension of something even bigger about to happen must be on American minds tonight.
1) Multiple plane hijackings
2) Twin office towers leveled. Possibly an unbelievable amount of fatalities involved
3) The Pentagon almost destroyed by a plane.
When I first heard this on the radio, I turned on the TV. My first thought was maybe a collision of two planes and one hitting the WTC. Just like that mid air collision in 1960. Then a fireball belches forth from the other tower. And a replay of the tape reveals a plane coming from NJ striking the building. Then hearing about the Pentagon, collapse of the two towers had me scared, real scared.
This was nothing like this nation ever expierenced in our history. I was quite upset with a churning in the pit of stomach sensing even worse. We've seen buildings imploded on TV before. But this was intentional, with workers at their desks. I heard on TV that there could be 10,000 people in both towers on a normal day and both towers handling about 40,000 people. Any enormous fatality number will pale in comparison with any disaster we had in the past. And now 7 WTC was flattened by debris from one of the flattened towers that weakened No.7.
GOD HELP AMERICA
Bill "Newkirk"
Thank god that I live in a town that you don't know about.
I'm alright. Just haven't posted much. But I am here.
David,
Thank you for a very touching tribute. I must have seen that shot in one form or another 1,000 times, but today it moves me to tears. I do not know of any family, friends or associates hurt or killed today, but for some reason, I feel as though I have just lost my family. Today's events will haunt us all for the rest of our lives.
May God Bless all those suffering right now.
Bill
We're Americans. Americans died. We all lost family.
I second your comment about the homepage.
Thank you,
The scale of this tradegy is beyond my comprehension. When we hear of a plane crash, we feel for all the victims and the families. Today we are talking about 5, 6, 7 ??? plane crashes PLUS the carnage on the ground. My mind cannot process this, I just have a sick feeling in my stomach.
Ditto on that picture, which really fulfills the "worth a thousand words" cliche.
After the immediate shock, my next thought, as I'm sure millions of others, is that closest and dearest to me are safe. My younger daughter is in special ed, and they didn't tell the special ed kids at her school. My older daughter will be home from Junior High in a few minutes (Thank God) and I'm sure they discussed this.
I was in High School when Kennedy died and it seemed like all the world, including all the media, covered nothing else for days. In emotion this is like that.
Forgive me if I say I'm glad Nickelodeon still has kids' shows and that neopets.com is still working, so there will be some little escape, some semblance of normality for them.
There will be many different victims of this. There are some things children should not have mark their young lives.
I was in Kindergarten when the Cuban Missile Crisis occurred, but don't remember anyone ever bringing it up in my presence (though I'm sure they did). When JFK was assassinated a year later, our school was let out at 2 p.m. and all the parents came to pick their chilrden up and told them about the tragedy in hushed voices. The networks were already covering that story non-stop, and the independent stations (5, 9 and 11) went to news coverage around 3:30-4 p.m. IIRC.
With the 24-hour news channels and over 200 digital cable channels, there probably won't be the same wall-to-wall coverage, but it will donimated both the networks and CNN, MSNBC and FNC at least through the end of the week.
My school day at Erasmus had just ended when Kennedy was murdered. I had just gotten home and tuned on the TV and there was a news report that "President Kennedy had been shot." The first thing I did was to change to another channel and there was a picture of Kennedy with "1917-1963" below it. I just couldn't believe it. I yelled at the TV.
Curiously my first thought was that right-wingers had killed him--there were a lot of right-wing flakes at the time who were vocally anti-Kennedy--but it wasn't (not that we can be confident to this date what really happened).
Then Oklahoma City and based on experience everyone thought it was Arabs--but that time it was right-wingers.
And now this. I thought that this started with Kamikaze pilots and I understand that many in Japan still honor them if they don't honor the war. But Kamikazes attacked military targets. What kind of mind kills innocent anonymous civilians who have never done them any harm?
What happens to this nation if the culprits ARE Americans? We are all assuming Arab fanatics, but they love to claim responsibility immediatley after.
As I said in another thread, it's possible, but the right-wing militia people have never shown any ability to co-ordinate something like this, which was probably in the planning stages for six months to a year. On the other hand, Paliestinian terrorists pulled off the exact same type of mutiple hijacking scheme 31 years ago this month, with the "Black September" movement which was not only part of an effort to destroy Israel, but to destroy King Hussein in Jordan as well.
Nobody knows for sure who did what yet, but based on past evidence, the Middle Eastern terrorists have shown far more of an ability to carry out an act like this than any of our domestic lunatics have. We should know for sure within the next 24 to 36 hours.
If they are Americans we should go after them with just as much determination. Of course if they are Americans they did this with virtually no support from their fellow country-men so the hunt will be limited. If they are Arabs, they did it with the active support of Arab populations and governments. And as such many more will be called to pay the ultimate cost for such a cowardly, evil act.
Alan Glick
"What happens to this nation if the culprits ARE Americans? We are all assuming Arab fanatics, but they love to claim responsibility immediatley after."
If the culprits are Americans, everyone will be pointing fingers about jumping to conclusions and racism.
But what if it is Arabs?
I think what we need to do is think about the implications of assigning group guilt to people who have nothing to do with this, even if they are the same enthnicity.
I'm also concerned about people, whoever they are, who will find out who the attackers were and their motivations and say (even if only to themselves) "they were right."
I think what we need to do is think about the implications of assigning group guilt to people who have nothing to do with this, even if they are the same enthnicity.
Palestinian women and children are dancing in the streets. I may regret saying this, but if Palestinians are involved, their entire ethnicity should be exterminated.
The same thing ocuurred when Americans heard about the bomb being dropped on Hiroshima. It signalled the end of the war but it was a horrific event for the Japanese. Americans cheered in the streets. Palestinians view this as a victory over American tyranny. They view this all as war.
And now, so do we.
Let's be cautious about this "it's war" moral equivalence. What happened between the U.S. and Japan in WWII was war, declared by both sides. Both sides knew that this put their cities and populations in jeopardy. Look what happened in London, in Dresden.
Those people who celebrated Hiroshima were looking at a blow that they hoped would bring the war to a swift conclusion. If anyone was celebrating the death of innocent Japanese, that was wrong.
This was a sneak attack, as was Pearl Harbor.
"This was a sneak attack, as was Pearl Harbor"
The difference is that Pearl Harbor is way over there. What happened today is right here !
Bill "Newkirk"
And the Japanese at least had the decency to attack a military target, instead of targeting thousands of innocent civilians.
And, as evil as they were in launching that surprise attack on Pearl Harbor, at least they owned up to it with a formal declaration of war, instead of hiding in some desert compound.
Tonight, President Bush declared that any country who harbors these terrorists will bear the same punishment as the terrorists themselves. More power to him. If it takes the nuclear destruction of every rouge state in the Middle East to wipe out the entire terrorist network and ensure that this never happens again, then so be it.
Chicago Tribune columnist John Kass: We're at war
Tribune editorial: From the dust will come justice
-- David
Chicago, IL
This wasn't really a sneak attack. We've been "at war" with terrorists for a while, they have a tactical advantage (hard to eliminate, unpredictable), while we have much greater numbers.
It was a sneak attack. There is such a thing as the Law of Land Warfare (it was one of the subjects I taught as a military instructor).
You are not in a war because people "feel" like they are in a wat with you. You are in a war when at least one of the beligerants declares it. This way you know who you are at war with and you know where and against whom to strike when you are attacked.
www.lenta.ru in Russia reports that some communist Japanese group claims resposibility. IMO before court clears it, it's just another allegation.
Arti
"If the culprits are Americans, everyone will be pointing fingers about jumping to conclusions and racism."
Oklahoma City was different because of one somewhat mastermind dummy bent on showing his distaste about what happened at Waco,TX.
What happened here today is different. More than one terrorist spread out working with precision carrying out what Osama Bin Laden warned would happen. The recent bombings in Israel and Palestine reached such a fevered pitch, this had to be the result. Those pilots on those hijacked jets would probably have crashed their jets elsewhere to save tremendous loss of life and destruction. With a terrorists gun pointing at their heads, they knew they were going to die anyway. Believe me, those pilots were terrorists who knew how to fly those planes and where the bullseye was.
My guess that some ex- Desert Storm GI was not behind this. My money is on the bearded bastard.
Bill "Newkirk"
My daughter just came home from Junior High. They did discuss it with them. The kids have homework tonight and school tomorrow--probably a very good idea.
Some of her classmates were picked up early from school. I dread to find out why. I hope it is just fearful parents and nothing worse...
My daughter just came home from Junior High. They did discuss it with them. The kids have homework tonight and school tomorrow--probably a very good idea.
Some of her classmates were picked up early from school. I dread to find out why. I hope it is just fearful parents and nothing worse...
Very appropriate for what's been a harrowing and somber day for eveyone.
BMTman
I'm completely stuck on 5th Avenue at work, and I've been told the 4-5 trains are all shut down! I gotta get to the Staten Island ferry, but the only trains I know going there are the 4-5. Does anyone know any other way for me to get home? I really appreciate it - I have no wish to stay in Manhattan tonight!
The lettered lines are running, albeit with quite a few reroutes - "E" trains to 2nd Avenue, "N" and "R" no doubt going over the Bridge, "A" via the "F" line to Brooklyn. I think access to anyplace in Manhattan SOUTH OF CANAL STREET would be severely restricted, if not absolutely prohibited. This includes the Staten Island Ferry. Maybe you can get a bus from 95th Street-4th Avenue in Brooklyn. Go over to 23rd Street-5th Avenue BMT and ask if the "R" is running; that's as close to SI as I can picture right now.
wayne
I'm trying to visualize the carnage that must have resulted from the collapses. I'm assuming the WTC shopping mall is now flattened, the WTC Marriott is gone, and the WTC and Cortland street stations are full of rubble, if they're still there at all. Can anyone else with a better knowledge of the lay of the land around the WTC speculate any better that I?
My prayers are with you all.
WNBC speculates that the towers imploded:
I am roughly quoting from them(no quotes)
Jet fuel burns very hot. The steel heated up and started to buckle and give way. When the upper stories went, momentum took out the rest of the towers.
The new Verizon Building is now in danger of collapse- burning out of control and no FDNY in the building.
I just hope I still have a job since I cant call NYC and all bus, plane, train, roads, ferries are closed. Since I did not actually call myself, I will probably be listed as AWOL and face dismissal charges with suspension until the hearing. ANyone want a good Station Agent:-)
Subway-buff, I expect there are dozens, if not hundreds of NYCTA employees in your position. If severe action was to take place against all who were blocked from access to their jobs, there would be no one left to work. Keep the faith!
But I think the T.A. would be happy if there were no more station agents.
Well, now I have to complain about your sarcasm, not that I'm not guilty.
Arti
If Transit is that lame... Surely not.
A friend of mine who was at the area told me that, that in his opinion about 1/3 of one of the towers remained, of course I admit that this is no accurate account, and he was not himself when he told me the story, I feel I should let you guys know.
Arti
7 Floors of the south tower were still there until about an hour ago.
If there was ever such a thing as an extenuating circumstance, this has got to be it.
apparently not to Transit! I am appealing the denial of the emergency day off.I am mobilizing TWU officers and members and we will be filing a mass grievance to remedy the problem.
I don't think any of the stations are damaged, but I can be wrong. This wasn't an earthquake, just tons of debris falling to the street above. The PATH WTC is really deep down, it did suffer some ceiling damage back in Feb. 1993.
Bill "Newkirk"
According to a superintendent on the 1 line the street collapsed into the Rector st. station and there is a hole straight down to the tracks at Cortlandt st.
Looks like South Ferry will not be seen for awhile.
Unless it's signals and power can be isolated from the rest of the 1/9 line and the No. 5 train can be run through the loop instead of terminating at Bowling Green.
re use of South Ferry
Unless it's signals and power can be isolated from the rest of the 1/9 line and the No. 5 train can be run through the loop instead of terminating at Bowling Green.
Does the 5 line have access to the 1/9's outer loop, or only to the inner loop? If the latter is the case, that could make the station unusable as I don't believe there are any entrances to that loop.
Yes, there are switches at Bowling Green providing access to both the inner and outer loops. Lexington Ave. trains rerouted to the outer loop can switch back to the inner loop past the South Ferry station thus returning to Bowling Green.
I believe there is a crossing-at-grade somewhere in there that would permit the Lexington Avenue line trains to access the West side IRT tracks.
wayne
The Lex trains have access to the South Ferry 1/9 platform, and the trains leaving there have access back to Bowling Green, but the 1/9 does not have access to the inner loop from Rector Street.
If they can get power to the station, even if the switching controls between SF and chambers are out, I suppose they can manually change the switch to handle the No. 5 trains and pin it in place, a la the F train in Brooklyn after the Bergen Street fire.
That's probably what they will have to do for the next year, especially since Rector St. station is now a hole in the ground, and Cortland St. was flattened.
And moreover, somebody tell about the N/R stop at Cortland. If it took a major hit when the Towers fell on it, then there may have to be N/R service over the Manny B.
One of the top priority projects will be to restore service through the tunnels to the Montague Tunnel even if the stations are not ready for a while.
With the collapse of the center, what will happen to the A,C,E lines which run directly under the towers? Shut down? Any damage to the tunnels? Collpase?
This is so horrifying, I cant look at the pictures of the collapse, so scary.
No, Chris - the IND lines turn east onto Fulton Street and the tunnels don't run under the towers. The Chambers/WTC ("E") station is north of the center, and the Chambers/H&M ("A" and "C") line is further north. I am most concerned with the stations closest to the center itself: the two Cortlandt Street stations: "N" and "R" and #1/9. It looks like the "N"/"R" station was directly under the collapse.
wayne
There is a good chance that the tunnels suffer know damage at all. Building above subway lines have been blown up before (in controlled explosions) with no damage to subway lines below.
110 story buildings?
Doesn't matter the tunnels were supporting the weight when it was 110 story they can support it just as well when it is only a few feet.
But a 110 story building crashing with downward momentum is alot heavier that one standing still. Thats why the lower floors of the towers collapsed. The downward momentum.
Id have to side with Dand on this one. I could be wrong, of course, but catastrophic damage to the subway is unlikely. Some work may be necessary in the tunnels or for the tunnel roof, and certainly utility distribution will be an issue. Downward momentum is not. If the building pieces from the highest levels didn't damage the subway (we'll have to see whether or not that's true) then the rest of the collapse would not have, most probably.
You do realize we must learn the lessons here, apply them, and rebuild. The new structure may not look quite like the old one, but refusal of New Yorkers to cow to whoever these bastards were should be a foregone conclusion!
I doubt anything will be rebuilt on the site of the World Trade Center. The city will probably build a memorial park similar to the one in Oklahoma City with the names of all the victims that have died. WTC is now as a historic place for America as that or Pearl Harbor.
I hope not. That is the most prime real estate anywhere. How else is the United States going to win back the "tallest building" title?
Do you really think they will build another tower? Sears tower is next if these nuts strike again. After this, I would be surprised if a building of 90/100+ story size would be built ever again.
Someone might want to build it, but the question would be -- who would want to occupy it, especially on the upper floors? It will take a while before anyone will think of a 1,000-foot plus building without thinking of what happened today.
Sears Tower has been completely shut down since soon after this morning's attack on WTC, so the human toll probably won't be as high. Also, the Sears Tower doesn't serve as the financial nerve center that WTC did, so hopefully it wouldn't be as much of a target. Sears Tower also has a somewhat different structural system than WTC, so who knows how it would fare. But I guess it's all speculation now. Needless to say, people in Chicago were scared shitless for most of this morning. We all assumed that Sears Tower and O'Hare Airport were next on the list.
-- David
Chicago, IL
I don't agree with that. You might build to a different configuration but surrendering to fear like that isn't justifiable. I think the PA and the city should make a strong statement by committing early - i the immediate future - to rebuilding. The federal dollars will be there, state dollars will be there - and the rebuilding itself will be a tremendous morale booster.
It's going to be a park, anyone I talked (live) supported this idea.
BTW would you want to work in this site?
Arti
Well, I guess it will be good news for Jersey City. So much for New York being the centre of the world economy. I'll bet the park will be popular, after all it will have 4 subway stations and PATH service to New Jersey. Talk about an optimum utilization of resources. Nothing says "terrorism is not effective" like pulling out with your tail between your legs after each attack.
Thankfully, this fanciful talk about a park only is just that.
There is no doubt about rebuilding. The only question is what design. Liberty Plaza will be replaced.
This will all take time - but the good news is construction jobs will be a-plenty. Andorders for new electrical equipment, phones computers etc will be there too.
> It's going to be a park,
Where did you get this info?
> BTW would you want to work in this site?
Arti,
I PLAN to work there. It had better be the tallest and biggest building in the world. And I hope that the Second Avenue Subway stops there too.
Cheers,
Rob
Malbone Street comes to mind...
Arti
Malbone is well-known among we at the board, but unfortunately largely fogotten among the general public. It came at a time when there was no radio and very few pictures in newspapers, occured as the rest of the nation was anticipating the end of World War I 10 days later, and wasn't even the worst rail disaster of the year -- 100 people died less than four months earlier in a wreck in Nashville, Tenn. (which remain to this day the first and second worst rail accidents in terms of loss of life in U.S. history). Plus there was no "sneak attack" aspect to it, like today's incidents or Pearl Harbor.
So muliply it by 1B times
Arti
Truly a tragedy it was. But it's ridiculous to even try to compare it to what just happened.
Not realistic in New York. If you did that every time somebody knocked a building down you're basically surrendering your way of life to a scumbag's demands. Plus, the site is at the center of an important transit hub. No reason not to use it that way.
The best way to honor these people in NY is to rebuild the world trade center (in different configuration, perhaps) and put a memorial park in as part of the landscaping.
I'd work in a building like that in part to honor the people who preceded me.
As I said on another thread: Rebuilding the WTC would be a statement to terrorists, but renting the World Trade Center to businesses would be the key thing to make it viable. There's no point in rebuilding the twin towers if nobody wants to occupy anything higher than the 30th floor, and that's the problem I fear they'll face for the forseeable future, unless the businesses and public can be assured that this WTC will be safer than the last one, both structurally and militarily (an Air Force or Naval Airbase close to New York City doesn't sound like a bad idea now, does it?).
Which is another plus to my World Trade Finger proposal. 4 50 Story Buildings and 1 100 story building.
I think you're badly overstating the fear. Rebuild the Center (better, more modern design, yes, apply the lessons learned). Nobody will hesitate to occupy it.
Thank god it wasn't the Empire State building. That structure is irreplaceable.
Although, I honestly would have been cheering had empty planes impacted with Madison Square Garder or Grand Central Terminal at 3AM. Both structures are an affront to PRR fans.
What's wrong with GCT? Did you mean that alleged station called Penn under the Garden?
NYC fans should be subject to the same humilliation that PRR fans have had to endure for the past 40 years.
As of approximately 2:30 PM it was announced that the IND/BMT is fully operational although I assume that Chambers St./WTC and Broadway Nassau are being bypassed. Service on 1,2,3,4,5,6 & 9 lines is still out in lower Manhattan presumably because the tunnels are closer to the service. Westbound LIRR service is still out - eastbound is running but sporatically.
As of 6:30PM tonight (Tuesday), "A" and "E" are operating to Brooklyn via the "F" line (Rutger's St. tunnel); there is no "C" service. "E" trains are terminating/turning at Smith/9th St. (along with the "G"). The "F" is running to Coney Island, albeit not as frequent, but certainly very crowded.
I guess E trains are going back to brooklyn if the tunnel is still there.
According to MTA web site to 2nd Ave.
Arti
Just to take my mind off the tragedy for a moment, I would guess the routes for a while will be somthing like this:
1-9 Local service south of Chambers probably to New Lots for the forseeable future as with the GOH until the WTC site is cleared and declared structurally sound. The 1-9 could end up replacing the 3 in Brooklyn, with only the 2 running 7th Ave. express with a Lennox shuttle.
A-C-E -- As has already been said, E train service to Second Ave. for a while, though Chambers-WTC will probably be the first in the area to reopen. The A may have to run with the F via Rutgers tunnel for a while, with no Fulton express service in B'klyn, though the A tunnel between Chambers and B'way-Nassau does not run under the WTC complex, and may not have to stay closed for a very long time.
N/R -- If they don't send both over the bridge with the Q and W, then short trains coming from Queens will terminate at Canal St. or City Hall. Trains from Brooklyn will either terminate at Whitehall or use the Nassau Street line to terminate at Chambers. The N/R tracks also are not under the WTC site, but the debris around the downtown entrance right now must be staggering.
PATH -- All trains to 33rd St. for the forseeable future once the system is up and running again. Increased ferry service from Hoboken, where some trains will likely terminate, to Battery Park City.
Look for some tremendous crowding on the IRT, which will have the only two avilable tunnels from Brooklyn into Lower Manhattan for at least the next serveral days. Bowling Green on the 4/5 will also be jammed with SI Ferry riders who won't have the 1/9 or the N/R as an option, though the MTA could run special No. 5 trains to South Ferry if both the power and the switching in the loop is unaffected.
Offices may be closed for quite some time, to keep people off the subways. This will already add to the recession, as if we hadn't had enough.
Well, remember that FEMA is going to pump federal disaster aid into New York. That includes rebuilding money. The feds are not going to be stingy in this situation. The economic loss will be significant, but New York will receive a lot of aid.
Will the doors on the Redbirds line up with the gap fillers at South Ferry?
They have in the past (pre-1986); back then the #1 line was running some of today's Redbirds in their mixed (mostly R22) consists.
wayne
They could allways run without gap fillers as they did before 1914.
If the R-62 and Redbird door spacing is the same, only offset, the stop marker would be moved and all would be fine.
Otherwise, the 5 would have to run exclusively R-62(A)'s. The 4 and 6 could easily give up their R-62(A)'s and accept Redbirds in exchange. If that's not enough, things get slightly difficult, since the 2 has no R-62(A)'s and Redbirds don't have side signs for the 1 and 3 anymore, their having been replaced with hybrid 2/5 signs for the Lenox invert work a few years ago. Either the signs would simply be wrong or cars would be sent all over the place: R-142(A)'s from the 2 or 6 to the 1 or 3, R-62A's from the 1 or 3 to the 5, and Redbirds from the 5 to the 2 or 6.
(Why do the gap fillers at South Ferry have such a narrow tolerance? The ones at Union Square fit all IRT cars.)
I think the 1/9 could be sent to New Lots and Lenox trains could run thru to Flatbush. Maybe southbound trains could be designated 2 and northbounds 3.
I don't know why the fuck we are concerned with this, but rest assured, the subways and PATH are fucked for some time to come.
-Hank
>>> I don't know why the fuck we are concerned with this <<<
What is your problem, Hank? This is a message board about the subways, stop complaining about on topic posts.
Tom
Fox News has just begun to release the names of those we have lost; the first one mentioned is Fox newscaster Barbara Olsen, who was on the flight that collided with the Pentagon. May God rest her soul and be with her family this day and every day.
Sincerely,
Fred Donaher
It has been reported that she phoned the outside world saying her plane was being hijacked. She died a hero.
Bill "Newkirk"
Also the exectuive producer of "Frasier" his brother who was a minister and former Boston Bruin "Ace" Bailey were among those killed when the American Airlines 757 hit WTC 1.
Not that they are any more important than any of the other 10,000 to 30,000 people who died, but when familiar names show up among the terrorists' victims it drives home the point even more to people across the country who may not have any family members in New York or D.C.
Yes. And at a terrible price.
-F.
Oh dear. May God rest her soul.
-F.
First I would like to say good afternoon to everyone,I hope you are all ok.I woulds like to send my condolences first to New York for what happened.I hope no one's loved ones were in or around the towers and I hope you all got home safe.If you know what happened then theres no need to read the next paragraph.
Shortly befor 9 am a plane crashed into the World trade tower.15 minuiteslater a b 747 crashed into the second tower.At 10 am World trade plaza 2 collapsed into the street below.Around 30 minuites to an hur later tower 1 crashed.over 10,200 people are presumed dead.156 have died on the planes.
Update:Most IND and BMT Are running at this time(Exept for the E)The A,C,J,M,Z,N and R trains are running express after canal street.The only IRT line running is the 7.There is no cellphone service so if you have one it's currently useless.
Again I am sorry for New York and God bles you all.
Are the "N" and "R" running via Bridge?
wayne
Thank you for the note. It is very sad that this has happened; the toll is quadruple that of Pearl Harbor, and each toll is too great for our people to face both then and today. I really hope justice is served for those of us who are still alive, and that God will rest the souls of those who have gone before us and be with the families of the victims whose demise was purely undeserved.
My wife's cell phone was working this afternoon north of 23 St. The cells seem to be down only south of 14 St - St Vincent's still having trouble communicating with incoming ambulances via phone.
Mine started working aroung 4 PM, perhaps they deliberately shut it down, as it's quite anonimous means of communications.
Arti
I know everyone agree's with me.
This is the beggining of the Darkest Days in American history since th Civil war.
I think everyone should stop what their doing and pray for those hourt people and the lost souls in that complex.
Paul
Kelly
:(
Sorry, but not evereyone can.
Arti
Thanks. God bless you too, my friend.
Folks, as you know we have just undergone a senseless tragedy here in our country, and my thoughts and prayers are with all of you, especially the good people of NYC. I realize a majority of our members are from the area and that a few witnessed it first hand and were fortunate enough to escape safely; please check in with your status. May God be with you all.
Sincerely,
Fred Donaher
I'm fine. I work for Morgan Stanly and was located on the 44th floor of tower #2. Thankfully, we in this building had some time to react. I pray for those who never had a chance at 1WTC.
Here are the "safe" people I know: Alex L, The Train Dude (on vacation), Myself, Dave Pirmann.
i was lucky i was the jersey side of the river
I'm in Boston, but I stayed at the WTC Marriott this past weekend. And I have (had?) reservations there for next week.
You had reservations.
I stay at the WTC Marriott every few months (Priceline for 95.00) I wonder if it's still there. I hope they all got out before the collapse. Todd, Which WTC building it it that the hotel exits into? The first one hit or the second?
Well the Marriott is part of that whole complex, so it is undoubtedly gone too. (wow, builiding #7 just went)
My thoughts and prayers go out as well to everyone who is going through this in NY right now, especially if any of you have any friends or family who were working in the area. As a native New Yorker, I feel helpless watching all of this from the west coast. My father has business interests in WIndows on the World so he is quite shaken right now. Having spent MANY years of my life has a kid in those buildings, the tape of the second plane is absolutely chilling.
Again, my thoughts to those of you who made it out...and for those of you who may still have unaccounted for friends and family.
Jeremy, my brother was one of the Con Ed workers who were desparately trying to cut the electrical and gas feeds to #7 WTC before it collapsed. The power station is on the Brooklyn side of the East River and can be seen from the FDR roadway.
Thanks again for your emailed message.
BMTman
It exits directly into 1 WTC, the first building hit (not the one we have all seen hit on TV). My company had it's Christmas party in their ballroom.
I've seen the pictures on Ch.2. The Marriot is history.
Had. It was hit bad and is in danger of collapse. Morgan Stanley had 200 out-of-town trainee brokers staying there this week for classes at 2 WTC. God help them.
I'm doing fine I'm in state of PA.
Pelham Bay Dave: The last report I got on him is he was at 242 Street and Broadway. When I was talking to him on the Phone reality of the twin towers coming down did not hit him yet.
ANy Update from your dad- Pelham Bay Dave> We trust.he is safe.
I'm fine here in DC. I can still see the smoke at the Pentagon from my office. It's just horrible.
Wayne
Well thank God our man in D.C. is ok. I would also like to know if all our Subtalkers are ok. I'm told our Website host had a close shave this morning.
All clear up here. And so is my brother. He managed to highball it over to the NY Waterways ferry to Jersey City when the second plane hit and the first tower went down. But he told me he himself had a close call trying to run and duck.
CCNY: Stay clear of that area buddy because I hear some other buildings are onthe verge of collapse. I'm going to give blood this weekend. I hope we all come out of this ok. Out here in California there has been an outpouring of grief. I am also full of rage at those bastards that did this.
You don't have to tell me twice. In fact, there are rumors going around that there was a crack found in the Battery Tunnel. If that's the case, then a blowout is imminent.
i am ok...however i do not know yet about certain members of my family...i am beside myself and am a mess
i just spoke to 2 members of my family who work in the area and they are OK....there is still one that hasn't reported in...i'm praying
I hope all is well
thx
thanks to the lord....the other has reported in
and they are OK
and they are OK
Good. Thank God for that!
Andee....my prayers are with you.
My brother's former co-worker (and a great guy who sold me my first motorcycle) is presumed missing as he worked on the 104th Floor of Tower 2...
BMTman
I'm fine. Amazingly, there was hardly any traffic in my travels today (I was never in Downtown DC) and the bike path near my house was almost as busy as on a weekend.
I'm OK. Not emotionally, just phsically.
That's good. Hopefully all who have not heard from family yet will soon. Thanks for the report!
Sincerely,
Fred Donaher
I am safe, but shaken here in Sea Cliff. For once I am glad I live in a more isolated, sparsely populated area, that is not a target of terrorist interests like NYC. I don't know when I can return to NYC again, but somehow I can't let those terrorists take away my confidence. Yet this is an awful big hit, and it's gonna take a LONG time for all of us to recover.
I bet it will. I would like to visit the city one day but this has just shaken me to an unfathomable level. The whole nation is feeling the shock of this terrible event and praying for all of you.
-F.
Hello all... I was in school when this happened and even though I didn't see it, the smoke was pointed out and many of my friends did see the actual thing. My school is Brooklyn Tech which is right across the river and we had a pretty close view. Another one of my friends who goes to school at Stuy, which is right near WTC, said that secret service evacuated the school and as he steppped out, he saw the second tower collapse at 10:30. At school, he saw people falling out the window. He is now completly traumatized and hates the terrorists. Me, I've been vary calm and seemed to not care much. I know what happened, and know it's bad, just that being upset wont do anything. This is Go N Train reporting in, just fine.
Good luck to all of those who have not yet heard from their families or have suffered a loss.
I died in the collapse. How exactly I'm making this post is as much a mystery to me as it is to you.
Oh shut up. You can be silly later.
Dan
Today of all days, that is not funny.
You're sick. Good to see you're OK though.
-F.
Here and accounted for.
My sympathies to all those affected by the tragedy and to those who lost loved ones.
=)
Cleanairbus alive and well...got stuck on the train, though. I have to count my blessings, though; that could have been me in those towers...
Cleanairbus
all is well with 4 LEXINGTON AVENUE EXPRESS/LEX JEROME. I PRAY ALL IS WELL WITH YOU.
I'm ok. Got out of 140 Broadway at noon, and walked to home to Bay Ridge. Took us 4 1/2 hours to do it.
You were actually south of the WTC, and yet you got out of Manhattan? How?
Must have walked over on one of the bridges.
Phil Hom of Virginia is here. Everybody is OK
PS My wife use to work at Bankers Trust, next to WTC on the south side.
I remember hanging out in the ERA when the Hudson Terminal was taken down for the WTC. And 145 Greenwich Street is now the WTC fire house.
I'll pray for the people and families who worked there. Hope all is well with all of you.
Phil Hom
What part of VA?
Stafford (540 area code) but I work on an USAF base in Wash DC.
I am OK I got stuck at Canal St on the M for 3 hours.
Robert
Safe and sound. May God be with us all on this tragic day.
IM still looking for my baby sister. i called her fifty times and still couldnmt get in touch with her. im also tring to reach my children and mother.
I will pray for all of you and your safe return to each other.
Sincerely,
Fred Donaher
I and GreenSignL are fine. I had to walk over the Queensborough Bridge to Queens, though. I hope everyone else is okay, and my heart is with those in pain tonight.
Dan
Jason, here. I don't live in NYC of course, but, I was worried about you all. As I walked into my second period class, I watched in horror as one of the WTC towers fell. It lookedas if I was watching a movie, I thought Manhattan was finished. Thankfully, it wasn't as bad as I thought, but that isn't saying much at all. I watched as the second tower fell. How could this happen in America? My prayers are with everybody tonight, the victims, the families, you all, everyone. Take care.
I work for FedEx at 110 Wall Street during the evening, but I come in early (about 8AM) on Tuesday and Thursday. Luckily...thank God, I was not on the list to come in today for I would have done deliveris very close to the building.
For some reason I was sitting on the Turnpike for an hour but yes I'm still here to add my $.02 cents whenever nesessary.
Mike
"Mr Mass Transit"
Euclid Avenue A Train Is Ok but shaken (F-16 Flying overhead) In Phoenix Arizona I wish for Many Survivors from WTC to be found today (Wednesday). and to send condolences to all friends and family lost.
Steven Joseph Pesserillo
Euclid Avenue A Train
East New York, Brooklyn, New York
Transplanted To Phoenix, Arizona
You may also want to contact Branford or Seashore Trolley Museum to see if they're interested in the single unit R-36s (I doubt they'll be interested in a married pair) - it would sure be nice to ride them after they've been extinct.
--Mark
Possibly, but I don't think that they would be interested in a single ended
car of the R-36. An R-33 maybe (but the big problem is $$$$$)
Branford has R-17 #6688, which had been painted red before it was retired. As I understand, it runs fine. I doubt if they'd want to spring for a car which, save for the picture windows on single R-33s, looks much the same as what they already have.
NYCT has "tons" of IND redbirds at Coney Island Yard. In fact, I took my subway train evacuation training on IND redbirds at Coney Island. Furthermore, they have many that are used for "training".
My heart goes out to all those who have loved ones who may be among the missing from the World Trade Center disaster and the downed airliners.
Also, let us all salute the brave men and women of the fire and rescue units of the New York City and surrounding counities. While living Brooklyn this morning I saw the Sunrise Highway traffic westbound being diverted from the city at Francis Lewis Blvd. The Sunrise/Belt Parkway was being reserved for Long Island Volunteer Fire/Rescue units and I saw the Malverne FD heading that way at about 10:30 this morning.
Please take a moment to pause and reflect upon the simple things that matter in our lives and the everyday things we take for granted as today's developments show that life is so precious and can be so fleetingly....
BMTman
Sea Cliff and Glen Cove are also sending some help to NYC
Please take a moment to pause and reflect upon the simple things that matter in our lives and the everyday things we take for granted as today's developments show that life is so precious and can be so fleetingly....
A-MEN to that.
We simply cannot conceive of a tragedy of this magnitude!
Our thoughts and prayers are with all affected by this hideous event!
at 1pm today the red line in los angeles gets shut down for bomb inspections disneyland - madonna concert la city hall shutdown
no report on the blue & green line some schools down bus service still running los angeles county fair shutdown
no airport lapd on alert etc..
Saw this report on CNN as well as Channel 5 news; not sure exactly which building this is; I think it is one of the short buildings out front on Church Street/Trinity Place. Perhaps this is a result of a gas leak; they haven't been able to get close enough to shut service off.
wayne
7 Wtc is the tan-ish building on Vesey St. connected to the WTC courtyard via the pedestrian bridge.
Any word on 5WTC, which is completely filled with offices of the company I work for (Morgan Stanly)?
Morgan leases 12% of WTC2 also.
Yup. Floors 44, 45, 46, 56, 59, 60, 61, 62, 63, 64, 65, 66, 67, 68, 69, 70, 71, 72, 73 & 74.
I was on 44. My duties also required me to be on 56, 59 and 60 quite often. I have hundreds of friends there.
I heard Morgan Stanley is declaring a total business loss...
This no doubt will be one of many casualties in the financial community. I am still struggling with the word that 300 plus firefighters INCLUDING THE DEPUTY COMMISSIONER (the Chief) are lost.
It is going to be a long time until things are normal again.
wayne
Right now, all surviving 2 & 5 WTC MS employees are on indefinate paid leave. My guess is that they'll find as many positions for us at other branches in midtown and Jersey City. Those who were set to retire in the next year will probably not come back, as many will who are just too traumatized.
What this really does is destroy any remenants of the old Dean Witter Reynolds. All MS floors in the WTC were once Dean Witter floors before the merger 4.5 years ago.
I feel for you, one of my friends will never return (Canal st PO)
Arti
con ed is going cut power south of the seaport it going to be a dark long night for the brave souls working at the trade center
well they haven't done it yet but when they do this site's going down...
I thought www.nycsubway.org was in Jersey City.
No no no, that's where I live, but not where the ISP is...
I always figured the servers were like in your living room or something.
Evill CT Governor Roland just announced that MNRR was running trains out of NYC every half hour on the 2 CDOT lines.
Ok, quick question for all the engineers out there. The aircraft each impacted with each tower fairly high off the ground and as expected the portion of the tower above the impact point fell down. Why then, as I look at the video now, is there nothing left of the towers. Shoudln't there be a stump? You know, 10 stories or something. A hieght that is smaller than the length or width of the base? Why did the parts below the point of impact seem to just self destruct?
I'm sure they were designed to withstand the impact. However, both of the planes were in the early part of their flights to the west coast - which means they were loaded with fuel. I'd bet that was more of an impact than the collision itself.
Wayne
B"H
I read somewhere on the net an article with some comments from engineers who believed that the subsequent fires, not the initial impact, brought the towers down. The heat from the flames, weakened the structural steel, and brought the top floors down, the weight of which simply crushed the floors beneath. Not good.
Yitz
That's from the NY Times ... Believed to Be Safe, the Towers Proved Vulnerable to Jet Fuel Fire.
--Mark
B"H
yep...busted...although i think i may have gotten the info from another site as well.
The 1 & 2 WTC were constructed as such that the wight of both towers were supported by their walls, not steel skeletons as most skyscrapers are. When the planes hit the towers, they effectively punched huge, gaping holes in the support structure of the buildings. With all the weight of roof and top floors, as well as the weight of the remains of the aircraft and the fire, there was no way the building could have remained upright. If you'll look closely at footage of the each tower, especially 2 World Trade Center, you'll notice that the top half was actually causing the building to slightly bend. You saw what happened after that.
The twin towers were designed differently from other mega-skyscrapers, with ALL of the structural steel located within the outside walls. There is no load bearing structres in the middle of the floors. When the planes hit, they compromised the entire load bearing structure. If the buildings were built like the Empire St. Building was, then both might still be standing.
A plane actually hit the ESB in 1945. There was damage to be sure(nothing to even be mentioned in the same realm as today's tragedy), but the building, as you can see, survived.
It was just a much smaller B25, with almost no fuel in it. Thankfully, it hit on a Saturday morning, so only a couple of people died.
Yep, 350 Fifth Avenue is built like a rock. The plane hit the 79th Floor, an engine went across the floor, through a wall, into an elevator shaft and down to the basement! Yes, there was fire damage to the 78th, 79th, 80th and 81st floors, but the building's structural integrity was not compromised.
Perhaps IF they build another World Trade Center, it will be similar in construction to the Empire State Building. My guess is that there will be nothing but a park on the site, with the PATH entrance somewhere on the grounds.
wayne
I would be disapointed if they made the entire site a park. The best way to spite the terrorists is to build a bigger and beter pair of buildings with a memorial park between them.
I agree with Jersey Mike. The Port Authority needs to replace the structure; both as a symbol and in order to allow businesses to continue. You can't replace people, and these people will never be forgotten, but you can remain defiant.
I was notified that the twin towers WERE ABLE to withstand airplanes out of their walls (I think to a certain extent).
I really don't know what will happen as of the area now. There are over 5 stories of rubble piled up where the towers once were, and a big hole in the ground, for the basement.
I believe it will take weeks at least to a bare minimum that the rubble will be cleaned up, and the tens of millions and billions of dollars needed for emergency for this situation, including the Pentagon, is being reserved for this tragedy. As of now, it is too soon to recover any extensive information, because the incident only happened 32 hours ago.
I am occasionally looking at the cover of a Hagstrom map which is piled next to the computer. Whenever I glance at those towers which are part of the Manhattan Skyline, I am on the verge of forming fluids to clean my eyes, on those two great, magnificent towers which overlooked the nation to the Sears Tower, New York, and beyond. This was truly unbelievable for me, although it was real.
What it once was, but not is.
: _ (
None of the rubble can be touched until rescuers decide that there are no more possible survivors. It was the same with the Murrah buidling wreckage. Plus, the FBI will want the wreckage to remain in place if there's any chance of finding any additional evidence from the planes near the surface areas.
After that, they will have to still do structrual safety tests on the debris to make sure there isn't the danger of any further collapse while it is being hauled away. With the 1/9 stations and both the old and new PATH stations under there, that's going to take a while to work out as well (though I'm sure both tunnels have been walked as far as is safely possible already to check for structual damage).
I'd be surprised if the debris pile gets moved much until sometime in November at the earliest.
What about the old PATH station?
They're absolutely gonna put a park there. A memorial or maybe even a museum. I doubt they're gonna put another skyscraper on that site. I don't think people would have it.
Then where would you put the office space? The Hudson? A park is a cop out. This is a country of re-builders, not mourners. The past is the past, it shoudln't ruin the future.
Then how do you explain Oklahoma City?
I don't think it's a cop-out. I understand your attitude and personally, I'd like to see them put another skyscraper right there, bigger and better than the first. But what is most likely going to happen is the park. Think of the families attitudes.
A site of peace where, for now, there was a site of chaos.
OK city has a lot more free space than Downtown Manhattan. Would you rather have your dead relitive honoured by a park or by a "Memorial" building. What would be better, a plaque in a park most people could care less about or a plaque in the lobby of the tallest buiding in the world.
How many people would like to work there?
Arti
Exactly how I feel.
If I'm the Port Authourity, I will not only rebuild the World Trade Centre, I will build something taller and leave more scape for the memorial park.
We have to fight against terrorism, one way to do that is we should do is to act "business as usual". Then the terrorist attempt to destroy the USA will fail. Althogh I'm not an American, and I don't really support Geroge W. Bush's act, we should stay though for terrorism.
I mean tough, not though.
By the way, Hong Kong also see this incient as a terrorist act.
Agreed.
If I'm the Port Authourity, I will not only rebuild the World Trade Centre, I will build something taller and leave more scape for the memorial park.
I applaud these sentiments but must respectfully disagree that this will happen.
The World Trade Center was built as an income producing property to help finance other PA projects. It created so much office space that it took many years for it to become profitable. NY and NJ had determined that the PA should now sell the WTC and finance its projects from the sale proceeds. Should the PA rebuild the WTC only to sell it? They have demonstrated that it could be profitable, so they may be able to sell the site.
It will take 5 to 10 years to rebuild the WTC to a comparable level. The businesses that were there will need other office space in the interim. These businesses will decide whether the synergy of being together and of being in that location is important. If so decide then they will find office space in lower Manhattan's older structures. If they decide that it was not location then the industry will disperse. In either case the companies/industry that had occupied the WTC space will have found alternate solutions. Any WTC rebuilder would face the prospect of trying to fill office space for 50,000 people. It took the PA at least 10 years to fill that space. Remember that much of the office space was filled by government offices until the last decade.
If the WTC were a government symbol like the Pentagon or Capitol and not a commercial venture then the economics of rebuilding would not be a question. It would be a national priority just as rebuilding Washington was after the War of 1812. However, the WTC rebuilders will have to go to the financial markets for finance. I'd expect that one of the traditional capital sources, the insurance industry, will not be cash rich in the immediate future.
"If the WTC were a government symbol like the Pentagon or Capitol and not a commercial venture then the economics of rebuilding would not be a question. It would be a national priority just as rebuilding Washington was after the War of 1812. However, the WTC rebuilders will have to go to the financial markets for finance. I'd expect that one of the traditional capital sources, the insurance industry, will not be cash rich in the immediate future."
You forget that, in the face of a national disaster, the federal government provides rebuilding financing. Financing a reconstruction of the area will be provided, in part by the federal government. Thus, insurers and banks will not bear much of the near-term burden.
You forget that, in the face of a national disaster, the federal government provides rebuilding financing.
The existing disaster relief is a loan not a grant. It is more like a bridge loan (pardon the pun) than anything else. It made to the directly to the parties that suffer physical damage not to the the insurance companies who suffer monetary damage. The PA might be able to get some relief, if they were self insured and there were no restriction about making direct loans to government agencies.
The mid and long term horizon are the problem. Ten to twenty year payouts are no longer fashionable. Today's "investors" usually want more immediate payback. The WTC was not a slam-dunk the first time around. Its financial viability is likely to be rockier the second time round.
If rebuilding the wreckage is a national priority, then the financing problem would be solved. However, the area's vitality would be much more slow to recover. The Pentagon will recover far more quickly.
I fear that our first priority may be towards a war effort, rather than rebuilding lower Manhattan. The only thing that's certain right now is that all bets are off.
-- David
Chicago, IL
Depending on how this incident is classified, the "loan" becomes a grant.
I have a feeling while the WTC will be rebuilt I will doubt we will see "twin towers" ever rebuilt. A shorter, perhaps 50 story structures will be built instead. After this tragic event I believe tall buildings over 50 stories high aren't safe. I've always been afraid of going in skyscrapers. Now after this I probably will never set foot in one.
That's your privilege, but I don't think banning tall buildings is a rational response to the situation.
Especially in places liek New York. We need tall buuildings. That's why we have them. The issue is protecting the buildings and making them as safe as possible. There is no way to totally avoid danger and a fall from a 50-story building is no less-deadly than a fall from a 110 story-building.
I'm almost tempted to say the Empire State Building is about as tough as a BMT standard.
My sympathies go out to all who are enduring this great tradegy. I think the first page (In Memorium...) is very touching.
Toronto, ON
Ok, here's my theory:
1) Building gets hit by plane.
2) As plane disintegrates, fuel washes around - a lot goes down elevator shafts
3) Fuel burns.
4) As fuel burns, the steel structure of the building heats up.
5) Once sufficient vertical members reach around 1340 degrees, a few start to buckle.
6) The central core of the building, with it's support near the bottom undercut, starts to fall internally. This transfers the weight of the building to the outside skin - which was also significantly weakened by the fire (I saw visable melting on parts)
7) This causes the whole building to collapse vertically. Once started, it can't be stopped, and just kept going.
It wasn't the plane hitting the building that caused it, it was the heat of the fire that weakened the structure and caused it to collapse.
Well, Re: the fire on lower floors, the fire supression system would have still been active on all the floors below the impact and should have supressed any fire there. I have heard that there has never been an out of control fire on any building w/ sprinkler systems which attests to their effectiveness.
Generally fire sprinklers aren't dealing with jet fuel. One of my colleagues who was in the air force told stories about fire drills in which they had a bunch of barrels set up in a row that were supposed to be a burning plane, with jet fuel poured on the ground around them.. and their inability to put said fires out despite unloading massive amounts of foam on it.
>>> the fire supression system would have still been active on all the floors below the impact and should have supressed any fire there.
Mike;
Were you under the impression that those systems worked through magic? They put a relatively small amount of water in a contained area to put out a waste basket fire ignited by a cigarette, or smouldering rags which burst into flame, and send a warning that there is a fire so someone can take further action. They are absolutely useless against tons of burning jet fuel.
Tom
Read some comment on Estonian BBS, that the jet fuel probably, while burning can reach 100 Centigrade, melting the steel structure, they pointed out significant planning. Also was mentioned that if the plane would have crashed lower, the building could have toppeled.
Arti
I think the heat effects you're talking about are, indeed the most likely cause. The kinetic energy of the plane alone wouldn't do it.
I have thought about it a lot in recent hours.
Have to admit that I meant 1000 centigrades.
Sorry,
Arti
We knew what you meant. It was correct thinking.
Based on my observations, I would tend to agree with that.
wayne
I should caution that I might reasses this as I get to see more footage. It looks like one tower went this way, but the other looks like it tilted just before falling. I also don't know how the building's built and where the loads are - I'm working on the assumption that there's a central collum that bears the load, and the outer walls share some of the load too. I can talk to a few archies at school, but I'm fairly certain this is how it's done. In this case, you've got floors that are supported at the ends.
While we're on the subject - anyone know if there are any dampers on the WTC like the citicorp building has?
Anyway, I wouldn't mind seeing any report on how the buildings collapsed to see how close I am. I think it fits at least one building (it would explain why they didn't go when initially hit, too).
The WTC towers had two structural systems at work: The densely-spaced outer skin and the interior elevator core. Notice that before the towers collapsed, there were gaping holes in the outer skins of the buildings, but due to the structural redundancy of the dense spacing of the columns, the towers still held up for a while.
Such structural redundancy is credited with saving the Empire State Building when it was hit by a wayward bomber plane in 1945, but the comparisons end there. The physics involved in the Empire State Building accident are a tiny fraction of those involved in the WTC attack.
Due to the intensity of the flames in WTC, the steel of the interior elevator core probably buckled and gave way. Even with sprinklers and the sprayed-on fireproofing that are now standard in modern skyscraper construction, the steel simply could not withstand that much heat for so long. Once the interior core buckled, the exterior walls -- already heavily damaged -- could not support the remaining load. Once the collapse began, the inertia of all that weight coming down was unstoppable.
Chicago's Amoco Building uses a similar structural system, but the Hancock Center and Sears Tower are a bit more unique. The Hancock is supported primarily by the massive X-braces and corner columns on the exterior of the building, and the Sears Tower is essentially nine distinct towers, 75 feet square each, bundled together with massive columns spaced at 15-foot increments. I have no idea how either of these towers would fare under similar circumstances as WTC, and I'd just as soon not find out.
-- David
Chicago, IL
The WTC has almost ALL the weight on the outer wall. The interrior floors are hung from the walls. The fire caused the zone above the fire to collaspe downawrd. This then hit the new "top" floor. But, because this floor had no structural strength it just gave way as did every floor under it. So, you had a shit load of debris falling through the middle of the tower litterally popping the load bearing outer walls out as it fell. When I posted this question I thought the WTC was more like a steel matrix than a hollow steel box.
I learned this from ABC News.
It is a credit to the WTC builders that the building did hold up long enough to allow a lot of people to get out. Also, the buildings did not topple, but collapsed reasonably straight down. Damage to the city could have been much worse had the building toppled sideways like a tree.
Before I start this post, my heart goes out to all the people of NYC, especially the victims (including friends and familes) of the trade center. May we never have another day like this again...this is just so sickening.
As for what Boston is like right now, most of you know that two of the planes were hijacked at Logan airport, and they headed to NYC to crash into the trade center. Boston's financial district shut down, the John Hancock and Prudential Towers were evacuated, and as Todd already mentioned...the MBTA is having extra, extended, and totally free service today. Many roads are either closed or gridlocked, especially Bridges and tunnels.
Luckily for me my school is on the south shore, so I will be staying on campus tonight (which is where I live anyways). My college is having a prayer vigil tonight too, which i will be attending.
God Bless You All. -Nick
Hofstra has cracked down on security. No one enters or leaves a building without verifying their business with security guards. Enter a residence hall? You'd best have your ID card.
I do have an id card, and a key to get into the building. -Nick
I left Cambridge (MA) at 4:40, and took the Red Line to the Green Line to North Station as usual. It was like a Sunday monring on the T. The 5:10 train to Lowell had only two of its six cars open, and I had a seat all to myself.
Todd:
I waited at my office in Liberty Square for the traffic to calm down (we are out of range of the tall buildings, though International Place had an air alert), then finally caught the 1:20 pm Old Colony train from South Station. It is scheduled as a Plymouth run, but to accomodate the rush hour conditions was run first to KIngston, then back to the junction and down to Plymouth.
I am glad you are OK.
We are trying to find Alex Bochstein of the Urban Transit Club. Unfortunately, he worked in 1 WTC.
Regards,
George Chiasson Jr.
(Widecab5@aol.com)
Retribution is not racism! The sons of bitches responsible for today's attack need to be exterminated!! I'm African-American and I still say that the M.F's who are guilty of this need to be nuked out of existence!!!
Eric Dale Smith
racism didn't play a role in it. it was religious beliefs
That's great - but who are they? People are willing to go throw bombs at everyone right now. Since no group has laid claim to this, it could just as well be the IRA as the PLO or possibly some group here in the US.
Right. For all we know our own government could have had a hand in all this. It is no secret that 'black ops' (combined elements of the CIA/NSA) could have aided and abetted these cretins. It's been done before in places like South America and can be done again...(hint: someone in the chain-of-command at the FAA MUST have known something in advance)...
BMTman
Hey Doug, as much as I have come to respect you, let's just say your post is really a reach. The evidence is starting to trickle in and we have a good idea where this orignated, and it was not at Langley or anywhere else in this country.
Still it takes a hell of alot of planning to pull off something on this magnitude w/o "inside" help of some kind -- maybe I'm wrong. We'll see...
No, that's just it. I'm convinced there was inside help. There had to be for such an organized and well executed suicide mission. That also tells me we have snakes in our own backyard. This will take time and we must be absolutely sure, but we cannot let this past and keep our pride and prevent this from happening again. And it must not happen again.
Would someone tell me in what religious book it says it's OK to kill people? I've got friends who are Jewish, Catholic, Muslim at work. None of their religions says it's OK to kill. Religious beliefs my a**.
I am glad you raised that point; I have heard it said that those of the Muslim faith who engage in sponsored acts of terrorism have not properly interpreted the Quran, which is the Holy Book of Islam. A Roman Catholic priest and I had a discussion about a similar topic a couple of years ago, while I was on my annual Retreat. He said that the Quran also forbids taking of human life, as does the Holy Bible (the Old Testament, A sacred text to Christians and Jews) states "THOU SHALT NOT KILL (Thou shalt not do murder)".
wayne
This is true.From what I understand,to live Islam is to be a person of peace,to be one with the creator and live as one with the sustainer with is GOD.If God is a deity of peace,then that is the path you would take. Islam also means to submition,to humble your self and be humble.To keep- your own counsel. These people have no clue of the ramifactions of there actions. If it was the ARABS[and I mean if]then they will pay,in this life and the next.They are mass murderers,from the person who issued the orders to the idots who carried them out.This ''JIHUD'' is a sham,a cover of evil.A mask used to perform evil acts,under the banner of rightousness. This is Satan in rare form, people.
What annoys me the most is the people we're sure who did it. How they like to take innocent people out with them (not the govt. leaders who did he things that angered them.) The people who did this died smugly thinking they are going to Heaven, with the highest rewards! They claim to be the true religion the Bible (while claiming the written Bible is tampered, justifying everything they believe that contradicts it, such as Ishmael, not Isaac, being the child of promise, who God ordered Abraham to sacrifice). Yet their 'gospel' is pure self-preservation! They call us "the Great Satan", yet they compete with us for power in ata's world, rather than waiting on God to bring down the evil system of the world, as the Koran evan says. (I guess they feel they are God's soldiers, but like with any other legalist feeding upon works-righteousness, they have no concept that they have sins that offend God and bring them under His judgement as well.) Their leaders are just as rich as ours. Then they call us "materialistic" or "earthly" becaue we are not willing to die like they are. But do you know what motivates tham to die like this-- what one of their heavenly "rewards" is? 70 MAIDENS IN HEAVEN! Can you get any more "earthly" or "fleshy" than that? (But what do women get?) I hate such hypocrisy, (just like when we called the USSR "materialist")
You are correct,Eric. Like I said,this is Satan in rare form.This is evil under the veil ofgood[at least to them]As in the Bible,it is written that GOD would send the wicked an illuion to make them BELIEVE THE LIE!That evil would appear to be good in their eyes.Thats as good a reason if any, why these people would think this would be reason to run in the street and have a party.All in the name of rightousness. Look,I'm not a bible thumper,but I do have my faith and I do know GOD.HE does not need man to carry out his will.It's just the opposite,man does the will of GOD.Wither they want to or not.Even Satan and his demons.We will recover from this,if it's GODs will. All we have is his love to carry us,and if you realy think about it....thats all we realy need......
I agree, Satan in a rare and extreme form. As far as I am concerned, and I may sound hasty or just plain angry, but who ever is responsible for this needs a Boeing 747 in thier ass!
"Just Venting"
Regards,
Trevor Logan
www.transitalk.com
The book of Exodus, to be exact. Chapter 20, IIRC.
Then it must be the case that the great majority of Muslims don't understand the Quran. Or it's more likely that they just don't want to understand those parts which would restrain their brutal lust for innocent blood. This goes for those actively involved in terrorism, and for those who lend aid and support to the terrorists, and those who dance in the streets upon hearing about the shedding of innocent blood.
Alan Glick
"I am glad you raised that point; I have heard it said that those of the Muslim faith who engage in sponsored acts of terrorism have not properly interpreted the Quran, which is the Holy Book of Islam"
A majority of people in that part of the world are illeratrate,so when their extermist Mullahs and others start preaching this and that from the Koran, they tend to beileve, Believe it or not the Palastines are the most educated of the Arabs in the Mid East
Just like some so-called "Christians" who have interpreted the Bible over the centuries to justify their own assaults on humanity. It still continues even here in the US. Religious fanaticism is a sickness no matter what the underlying religion is.
I can't imagine how God must be weeping at what some people do in His name.
-- David
Chicago, IL
True, but the case is that today murders of innocents in the name of God come more from Islam than from any other religion. Even in a case like Ireland, most Protestants and Catholics decry the murders supposedly committed in the name of their God. Not so in the Islamic world. Murderous religious fanatacism today is primarily an aspect of the Islamic world.
Alan Glick
"Religious fanaticism is a sickness no matter what the underlying religion is."
I agree. Looking back throughout history, though, there have been plenty of times were unspeakable acts were carried out in the name of Christianity. Hopefully, those of us of the Christian faith have managed to put those days behind us.
Peace and tolerance are actually major tenants of the Muslim faith. Maybe someday all Muslims will be able to live up to those tenants (as many here in the US and elsewhere already do). It's a shame that so many leaders in the Middle East exploit God's name to carry out their own hatred.
I feel sorry for all the decent law-abiding Americans of Middle Eastern decent and/or of Muslim faith who will undoubtedly become the targets of harrassment and hate crimes. According to news reports, it has already started. I fear this is just the beginning.
-- David
Chicago, IL
If Muslims didn't have such a solid record of defending such terrorist acts, these attacks would be less frequent. For example, when Jewish criminals are exposed it doesn't lead to many outbreaks of anti-Semitism. I believe this would not be the case if most Jews defended Jewish criminals.
Alan Glick
"I feel sorry for all the decent law-abiding Americans of Middle Eastern decent and/or of Muslim faith who will undoubtedly become the targets of harrassment and hate crimes. According to news reports, it has already started. I fear this is just the beginning."
This will be going on for quite some time. And as is coming to light now, those Palestinians and the like currently in war with Israel, as well as those in other developed countries, are in deep s***. And with Bush's speech yesterday, I had better watch what I say and do.
>>> Would someone tell me in what religious book it says it's OK to kill people? <<<
None, of course, and the all time leader in killing for the faith is Christianity.
Tom
So far we have no firm proof.
Arti
>>> Retribution is not racism! The sons of bitches responsible for today's attack need to be exterminated!! ... I still say that the M.F's who are guilty of this need to be nuked out of existence!!! <<<
The latest news indicates that the people who did the hijackings in Boston entered the United States from Canada. Sorry to tell you Subtalkers in Toronto and Montreal, if E Dog had his way you would be nuked for harboring terrorists. After all, he sees nothing wrong with killing millions of innocent people in a country where a relatively small number of extremists practice international terrorism.
Tom
Boy, you're determined to show us all that you're the biggest idiot on nycsubway.org aren't you???
>>>Boy, you're determined to show us all that you're the biggest idiot on nycsubway.org aren't you???<<<
God! Can't you people stop arguing for once!? Perhpas the biggest national tragedy in history has occured right in your own backyards and instead of getting along you're name calling!? People these days!!!!!
Just heard it on the news. Apparently several other buildings in the area are also in imminent danger.
This is beyond words.
-- David
Chicago, IL
7 WTC is being reported to have collapsed within the past few minutes.
It is now confirmed: 7 WTC is down along with the bunker.
Oh, the Bunker was in WTC 7. Still stupid.
News reports 7 WTC collapsed at 5:23PM and another one - a green glass building - fell as well.
wayne
Now since the WCT collapsed what are they going to do with the site of the WCT?
After this is all said and done, probably a National Monument.
-- David
Chicago, IL
This is New York. In a smaller city that might fly, but not in NY.
The families of the victims will have the final say in this. As valuable as the real estate is, no one is going to build on the site if the families protest that it is a slap in the face against those who died.
The families of the victims will have the final say in this. As valuable as the real estate is, no one is going to build on the site if the families protest that it is a slap in the face against those who died.
Who ownes it? The PA. Who does the PA have to listen to? NOBODY! Did they listen to those who protested the $6 toll? The PATH hike? Has the DRPA ever listened to local people? Port Authorities do what they want. The WTC was a cash cow that drove the city, to relocate it to Jersey City is not going to fly.
The PA has to listen to the Governor of New York, who is up for re-election next year, and the future governor of New Jersey, who is sure to be asked about what he wants the Port Authority to do with the site between now and Election Day in November.
If the families of the victims want a memorial park and the PA says, in effect, "FU" the press will immediately go to Pataki, Schundler and McGreevey and ask, "The Port Authority Board says the families of the victims can stick it where the moon don't shine on their memorial park idea -- Do you agree?" and all three will be guarenteed to say they will fire everyone connected with the PA Board who is in their power to fire if they don't give in to the families' wishes.
But if the families in general support rebuilding the facility, then it will be rebuilt.
We're also forgetting that there might be room for both a park and some buildings.
True. If the towers do return, expect to see a memorial park instead of a concrete plaza in the middle of the area.
I expected nothing less. If you remove some of the smaller outbuildings there is a very large plaza there. My point is that the whole place is built around the WTC. It has like 4 Subway stations and the PATH station. A park dosen't need 5 transit stops.
That's a great idea!
Would you want 50,000 jobs permanently relocated out of Jersey City if the WTC had been there?
Rebuilding is not a slap in the face, and you can't do that every time somebody attacks a building. That's very narrow-minded thinking. Amemorial, yes, but rebuilding around the memorial, or including the memorial within it, is crucial to the city's health.
It'll fly, would you personally like to work there? Analogy would be the Malbone Street wreck.
Arti
You bet I would. And a lot of people who died would want us to carry on their vital works.
Hopefully we'll see a World Trade Center II (tallest building in the world!!!) with a memorial park in the middle/on top. To do otherwise to be giving into terrorism and would wreck any chance NYC has to regain it's economy. Although it would be good news for Jersey City. From a railfan point of view I hope they rebuild Hudson Terminal.
I heard on the news that it cost $400 million to build the World Trade Center, but that amount would be much higher today. I really doubt they will rebuild it, although I agree with you about it being giving into terrorism. I guess we'll just have to wait and see.
David
Listen, do you know how much the WTC is worth! It was just LEASED for 20 years for 3.2 BILLION dollars. Not to mention what it adds to NYC interms of jobs, taxes and prestiege. Would NYC and NYS stand for those jobs to move to Jersey City? Everyone needs office space and the PREMIER location is the World Trade Centre.
Thae prestige is where now?
Arti
Remember, though, that the feds will be giving NYC a lot of money. FEMA disaster aid includes rebuilding money for buildings, infrastructure, etc. That plus the insurance pool will pay to rebuild it.
That is,if the whole thing doesn't throw us into a deep recession, as it was suggested.
I think we can ultimately absorb this and move on. Even a $2-3 billion federal tab will not in and of itself slow us down much. The economic damage caused by the attack is already here.
That is a strong probability, so much money has been lost. I have a feeling Jersey City is going to be seeing alot of business from business relocating.
It may see some, but unlike past efforts to "recruit" businesses from NYC, any movement across the Hudson will have to be done quietly, mainly by small businnesses. Jersey City, or any other suburban area, can't be seem trying to make money off this tragedy by stealing jobs away from New York -- there would be hell to pay in the public relations and political worlds for anyone involved.
That plus the insurance pool will pay to rebuild it.
I think this falls under the war clasue. The insurers don't have to pay dime one.
That's entirely possible.
No question, they need to rebuild it. But first things first- complete the rescue operation, the investigation, the rubble clearing etc.
I think, for morale purposes, the decision to rebuild should be made (relatively)soon and publicly.
Agreed, and then make contingency plans for this sort of thing which can happen again in the future.
True. We should always remember that it could happen again. Also, the airlines need to take STRINGENT precautions from here on out.
I agree on all counts there.
They will have to rebuild it in some form somewhere but I doubt we will see it built in lower Manhattan.
memorial most likely
It's now being reported that top US officials have confirmed that there has been evidence gathered since this morning implicating Bin Laden in the attack.
Here's hoping that by this time tomorrow, there won't be anything left of Afghanistan bigger than a toothpick.
-- David
Chicago, IL
Do these terrorists not fathom or simply not care that if they are found, they'd face the full fury of the U.S. Armed Forces?
Or do they also not think that with such a strong impetus to respond, we might do so with a vengeance?
They think they can hide out in nations like Afghanistan and we can't touch them because Afghanistan itself didn't attack. I hope that country goes down as the largest bomb test site in history.
Just make good and sure it really is him, and not someone of Tim McVeigh's crew doing the same thing. Oklahoma City 1:35the handiwork of a home grown fanatic.
>>> Just make good and sure it really is him, and not someone of Tim McVeigh's crew doing the same thing.<<<
And if it turned out to be domestic terrorists, how many of our blood thirsty SubTalkers would be ready to wipe out their home county with a nuclear strike?
Tom
Well, if the state of whatever refused to turn the perpetrators over to the federal government if it was domestic terrorists, then I'm sure the majority of Americans wouldn't mind an attack on that state's capitol and governor's manision.
If we know who did it -- say bin Laden really is behind it -- and the Taliban in Afghanistan agree to turn him over to the U.S. then I don't think we will stage a major attack. However, when you have a report like this come over the wire:
MOSCOW, Aug. 30 (UPI) -- Russia's Foreign Ministry on Thursday condemned the appointment of Saudi terrorism suspect Osama bin Laden as the commander-in-chief of the armed forces of Afghanistan's ruling Taliban regime, the official RIA Novosti news agency reported. Bin Laden's appointment confirmed that a center of international terrorism is being set up in Taliban-controlled territory, the ministry said in a statement.
"Pseudo-religious values are being used as a cover to prepare a bridgehead for expansion of militant extremism and separatism far beyond the region's borders," added the statement. This month, Russian media quoted Pakistan's Nation daily as saying that the Taliban had named bin Laden commander of their troops.
Now if I remember correctly, Oklahoma Gov. Frank Keating did not appoint Timothy McVeigh and Terry Nichols the head of the Okalhoma State Police Force after the 1995 bombing of the Murrah building, and therefore, President Clinton did not see any reason to rain cruise missles down on Oklahoma City. If the UPI story is accurate, Afghanistan may be a slightly different situation and call for a slightly different response.
ooo ee,on to Kabul, Alsoremember that the leader of the Anti Tablam was murdered early Tuesday morning before all this happened,and my key board is stuck
Just make good and sure it really is him, and not someone of Tim McVeigh's crew doing the same thing. Oklahoma City was the handiwork of a home grown fanatic.
Well, the Taliban has been busy destroying all of the non-Islamic images (blowing up the 1,000-year-old images of Buddah carved into the mountains back in February being the most infamous example) and arresting and putting Christian aid workers on trial in Afghanistan over the past year. If bin Laden is believed to be hiding out there, we're about to find out how "fanatical" their leaders are about dying if they don't turn him over to the United States.
We will not do much,because Afganastan is a Muslim Country, The Muslims can fight among theh selves like they have done for centuries(Sunni-Shite) but if attacked by a outside country like USA or USSR,they will unite, We get most of our oil from Muslim Countries, and Bush will notr do anything to harm that,and the profits of his Vice Presidents friends and cronies.
Of course he won't. Some of the wealthiest Muslims (barring bin Laden) are in the pockets of the Big Oil Companies. If bin Laden got his wealth the same way, then that's a whole different question altogether.
In the meantime, all those who are trying to stop the Big Oil Companies from gettting what they want (incl. my dad's home country of Nigeria) are being silenced. That helps the Companies greatly (pushing out opposition). But that brings up a question: If bin Laden is hitting those companies so much, then why is it that they haven't finished him yet, like others before him?
If This is th work of a domestic terrorist then The prison guards will most likely kill him befor the trial
If this is the work of Osama Bin Laden,if Afghanistan doesn'turn him over weget a new bombing range.
If this is Palenstinian work then Israel has no more problems with the Muslims.
If Any other of our enemies are responcible(Exept for Iraq.If their responcible then that will be a new concentration camp/Oil weil)then we still get a new Vieques.
I'm sure Satan himself, Osama Bin Laden has plenty to do with the attacks on the Trade Center, the Pentagon and the State Department. We have to stop him, stop him and his followers dead in their tracks. There's no telling what this sick man is ready to do next and we have to stop him and his henchmen.
was anyone at smith 9th st when this happen?
I think those riding the ferry going towards the terminal at the inital impact would have had better views....anyone did and would care to share their thoughts?
=)
They turned the 8:30 and 8:45 boats around mid-trip. I saw the smoke from the first building from the VZ, and the fireball from the second plane from 3rd Ave. I watched 1 World Trade collapse from my office in Rego Park. It took me 3.5 hours to get home from Queens, with a stop in downtown Brooklyn for my wife and her girlfreind.
-Hank
So far there are minimal affects out here...although BART has gone to a Sunday schedule and there appears to be limited service in the transbay tunnel. MUNI appears to be running on schedule.
This comes a day after AC Transit had a "sick-out" protesting schedule reductions.
Will today's tragety be a positive thing for ACELA or a negitive thing? After all, trains can't really crash into major buildings and they are more diffucult to hijack. By getting more people onto trains you can reduce the number of flights and then get a net increase of security per flight.
But even at ACELA speeds it will still take days to get from Boston to L.A. I don't think it will effect ACELA.
It may have a minimal impact, but for the most part, Americans are willing to risk their safety to get somewhere faster or make an extra buck.
If a nutjob places a bomb on the right of way, that will be the cause of major problems.
In the minority her but this will be big for ACELA. ACELA can't replace the cros country runs but increased airport security will make it more attractive timewise for the DC and Boston shuttles.
Please forgive me for bringing up this very unimportant subject, but does anyone know what will happen to PATH? I assume all service will leave from 33rd Street for awhile. Were the tubes damaged? I know this is nothing compared to the lives lost, and certainly PATH is the very least of our problems. I just can't think of anything else right now. :(
Probably at this time all PATH service will be going in/out 33 Street. Service probably was suspended Tuesday Morning as were all the Hudson River Tunnels and Bridges as a precaution. Maybe by the time you read this service will be back. But plan for delays and overcrowding.
The PATH tubes are 80 feet down. Nothing is hurting them.
But it will be impossible to get to the WTC station!
They could run trains to Exchange Place for the ferry to the World Financial Center, while they work out how to reopen the WTC terminus.
John
I'm thinking that if the downward momentum of the top of the tower caused the whole tower to collapse, then maybe that huge release of energy could have driven the debris pretty far down into the ground, maybe as far down as the PATH WTC station.???
According to Fox 5, PATH WTC Station is for all worht destroyed due to flooding and pancaking damage.
per ABC reported a few mins ago. However, MTA site says 1/9 running so I'm not sure which is correct.
Probably for the time being the stations in the area are closed. Trains are probably bypassing until further notice.
I did not see that report but there is a Rector Street on the N/R as well as the 1/9.
Assume the stations are closed.
Perhaps they mean Cortlandt Street station, which is right at the WTC. Rector Street is a few blocks further south. Maybe the collapse of 7WTC prompted this.
The Millenium Hotel, near WTC is now in danger.
Looks like the whole city's on flame.
wayne
I would think at this time the stations in the area are closed. If Cortlandt is damaged, we'll find out later. At least the station is full of smoke.
The E trains are being turned at Second Ave. station on the F line. This according to a T/O at Union Turnpike/Kew Gardens. The status of the other lines is still an open question.
I took an F from 51st/Lex to 4th Ave (bklyn).
F running both ways and thru both tubes, seems unaffected (other than slowdowns). E's are turning around at 2nd Ave on the F line as previously mentioned. I saw *ONE* R train heading towards Manhattan around smith-9th street, don't know if they're continuously running R's along the culver line.
Also, 4th Avenue in brooklyn is more or less normal. N/R/W working fine, but probably not into Manhattan (can the W use the Manny B?)
According to the TV news (CNN + NY1), all trains minus a few are working normal, except in those areas near WTC.
The "W" uses Manhattan Bridge during weekdays and rush hours. I would guess they could route all the 4th Avenue service up the Bridge, maybe turn the "W" at 36th Street so as not to clog things up more than they already may be.
wayne
I know the W usually uses the bridge, but was asking whether or not it's been closed off to train traffic due to possible damage or proximity to the area.
That is probably what will happen, I can't imagine how Cortlandt street on the N,R could've survived that. It's structually near the surface. The IRT station may also be affected.
The 2,3 Park Place and A,C Broadway Nassau stations will probably be OK, but don't look for trains to stop there anytime soon, they will probably bypass the whole area. But if you thought the Broadway line was slow before, it will crawl after this major disaster.
Those interconnecting switches south of W. 4th St. are worth their weight in gold right now, so to speak.
*sigh* ... so this is how the N will get worse... (referring to previous post)
Not if they reroute it over the Bridge. My guess is that there's probably significant damage to Cortlandt Street station, since it isn't very deep and it's right there.
wayne
The 1/9 at Cortlandt is about a level deeper than the N/R, so while the IRT was closer to ground zero, the BMT line had more direct access to the WTC mall and to possible debris damage (Rector is three blocks south of the site, so I don't think anything happened to it).
If it's closed for a while, look for the MTA to run some sort of split service -- N/R via Nassau Street to Chambers, or better, to Canal, where the northern section of the N/R can be run on the regular BMT local tracks and people can transfer via the Canal St. Q/W platforms.
Could this mean that City Hall lwer level will open?
Since they have only been closed for 2 months has the construction made it imposable for them to reopen.
It very much looks like we'll be looking at no N,R service through downtown at the very least. IF they can re-open the northside, then the N,R and Q will run the south side and B and D will be resurrected. If not, then you can expect a mess on Broadway. The W will probably be elimanted, N and Q run express over the bridge and R as a local, terminating at Canal.
It's way too soon to tell damage to the subways, but with most businesses in lower Manhattan closed indefinately, there will be less people in New York over the next week or two.
Imagine if they targeted the NYC subways as well? We'd have nothing to talk about...
They tried to four years ago -- remember the aborted attack on the BMT Pacific Street station?
Those of us still alive would be complaining about how Monday morning service would probably be slow as dogcrap, and someone would complain that it's all the T/O's faults.
It's funny, all the emergency contingency plans for the Flatbush Ave. corridor were planned with the loss of the bridge and only tunnel access. It now seems we have the opposite.....bridge, but no tunnel. Still a mess.
per ABC reported a few mins ago. However, MTA site says 1/9 running so I'm not sure which is correct.
It's best to be skeptical of some of the things you hear. No less an authority than cbsmarketwatch.com reported around 10:30 this morning that a car bomb had exploded at the State Department in Washington and that a plane had crashed at Camp David.
Rector Street is far enough south of the WTC for the station to have avoided collapse. Cortlandt Street on the IRT, that's another story.
Cortlandt Street on the BMT, more likely to have suffered damage.
wayne
Eat Lead, (or plutonium,) BIN LADEN
Good. Wipe all the scum off the earth. I think God will forgive us in this case. I'd take hell anyway to see these bastards pay. At least they'll be down there with me.
Reuters reported earlier that the head of the anti-Taliban movement was assassintaed earlier in the day. I don't know if it was before or after the plane terrorism.
The response should be swift, SEVERE, and disproportionate - I'm sorry to say it but we should make it so costly they will never even THINK of doing something like this again.
I really couldn't think of how to put it. Does anyone have any ideas of how I could phrase this better? Nothing about retaliation or rasicm, just a nice sentiment. Reply on this board.
Tony :(
My site
For those who would like to know what is happening in the subways and have a scanner to listen,
Manhattan Transit Police 160.905
Bronx Transit Police 160.500
Queens Transit Police 160.965
Brooklyn Transit Police 160.305
Citywide Transit Police 160.695
Other frequencies used
on Transit PD radios 155.925
155.370
IRT 161.190
BMT 161.505
IND 161.565
Yard 160.845
Maintence of Way 156.105
470.3875
There are other frequencies for other departments. But these are the main ones.
I was thniking of buying my own radio and was told there was a place in Brooklyn that will adjust it to pick up transit frequencies if you show them a valid idea.
Does anyone know if those two mile radius radios can be adjusted?
A valid idea?
Just go to Radio Shack and pick up a cheap scanner, starting at $100. No "idea," or ID, required.
Scanner Radios & Essentials
--Mike
I am a transit employee maybe I should change my handle (it's been 7 months), I was looking to use my own radio as long as it came to less than 150-200. So I need a two way and can carry 3 channels.
I don't think you'll be able to get a 2 way radio. Unless you are an operator or a conductor, you can forget about it.
If you're only been working for 7 months, chances are you are an extra clerk on probabtion. If that is the case you're all over the system. A scanner would help you and all to know what is going on as the annoucements are being made. We in the booth are supposed to hear annoucements as to conditions on the trains. Assuming they are made, they are usually not made until at least 15 minutes after we know something is going on. That is why booths have them. If they are not in the booths or not in proper working order, all clerks should call their local Field Offices to have it taken care of immediately.
I've had a scanner for most of 15 years on the job. It's always good to know what is going on around you.
I am a T/O and the Bendix radio is a piece of CRAP that weighs too much for being such a piece of CRAP.
I saw the new radios the TSS' have and thought I might do better on my own. I did look at Radio shack thanks to you and they do have a few models I am going to look into. I want to compare outputs. It's bad enough that the tower ignores you but all the deadspots are a pain. Especially when they are calling for you and they can't pick you up.
Sorry I thought you were a clerk.
My guess is that Bendix radios were the cheapest models TA could buy in large numbers.
Don't be too hard on the towers. They have their radios and their line speakers all talking at once and sometimes they don't pick up one voice in a sea of voices calling for them.
Not mention their distractions. Someone in the tower. Someone on the phone. Someone at the door and Someone spending that moment in the can.
Alot of token booths have their scanners on. Maybe they will relay emergencies to the tower or Control.
>>>>>>>>>I am a T/O and the Bendix radio is a piece of CRAP that weighs too much for being such a piece of CRAP.
These radios are definitely not crap. The old portable GE radios used in the IRT that the Bendix radios replaced, now THOSE were complete crap, and they were heavier.
Go to www.uniden.com. I found a radio that works for the transit frequencies at $48. Best money I ever spent. Not two way, though...
Just go to radio shack and get a simple scanner. I'd suggest at least 20 channels. Might cost $150-$200 But it might be your best investment in the subway. 99 out of 100 times you may not need it. When when something big goes down, it'll be worth it.
How is talking about transit frequencies off topic? There are probably a few people out there that would have liked to know what was going on. If not for that, then to hear "offical" information as to what was going on about reroutings and servive suspensions.
The MTA's website say there is no 3 trains service but that there is 2 train service was there some incident at Lennox as well.
The 3 may not be in service to give them room to turn the 1/9, since it can't go south of Chambers.
It is true, that when we are angry, we look for the usual suspects and point the finger quickly. I think we have an idea or maybe even know who comitted this horrendous act, but for most of us, we wonder, we want to say names, and bomb them to kingdom come, but I think it is proper that we listen to the evidence and in a few days come to a conclusion that has some support, doing anything rash now would only be bad, we are attacking at a ghost, we are fighting blind, lets listen, work together, lift the blindfold, and see with open eyes who our enemy is.
Most of us are angry, but most of us are scared too. I am scared, that tomorrow or another day will be my last, but I rather fully understand what we are doing then doing something out of retaliation.
Well said, Christopher.
wayne
You are vey insightful in the face of this tragedy, and I thank you for this.
When things resume back to "normal" is it still worthwhile to send the E to WTC? Or do we knock off the C and send E to Euclid?
=)
I think that station will be shut down, or worked on, still a terminal, but no longer called World Trade Center. Maybe Chambers Street- Battery Park City.
Ditto for our (1/9) Cortlandt St. I suppose.
Someone noted on this thread that this station was formerly called (from history, before the existence of WTC in 1963.) Hudson Terminal.
But I think that World Trade Center is the best name for it ever. The station name is irreplaceable.
And the conductors wouldn't be making the announcements for "World Trade Center" at Chambers St. on the 7th Av. lines anymore.
: _ (
Chambers Street/Hudson Terminal (Chambers/H&M) was its former name.
The wall tile formerly spelled out "H and M".
wayne
I think that right now, it is impossible to make any assumption on that matter...
The area is still important and likely the WTC will be replaced/rebuilt, so I wouldn't start waving goodbye to the C.
** . . . likely the WTC will be replaced/rebuilt . . . **
God, I hope not. (Rebuilt, that is.) I was hoping for a memorial to all the victims around the area, and a more modestly- and better-built structure of not as many floors.
Even before this destruction, I noticed train conductors on E trains were announcing, “E to Chambers Street/Hudson Terminal/World Trade Center,” before pulling out of a station. A point to the future, perhaps?
I agree
Arti
Maybe I'm stubborn. I want to see a new and improved WTC area. Whether it be another Twin Towers or some other combination of buildings, but something should be rebuilt there to show to the world that NYC, America, freedom, etc...will not lick its wounds, but show defiance and strength to rebound from a tragic loss.
Obviously there should be a memorial of some sort. We can debate for years on how to do it, and I want to see it. A new center should be built.
Seeing that no one has posted for quite I while, I hope everyone will get some sleep.
A lit candle for everyone
=)
I agree, we will rebuild in time, I would like to see a monument as well so I can come to NYC again, I love the city of NY, I live in San Antonio TX, and can place a American Flag and say a few words for the victims of all of this.
JeremyWills
Or a link to the past. After all, that station used to be called Hudson Terminal. I still remember when AA, CC, and E trains carried those signs.
No E.Maybe the Q can replace the E and Run Express to 179th 24/7
Good thing they don't have any automates announcements on the IND right now, a la the R-142s. Considering how long its taking to reprogram them to include the Q/W transfers at Times Square and Canal Street, the damn things would be saying "World Trade Center" well into 2002.
I am now hearing reports that the hjackers didn't have guns, but rather knives and other sharp objects. My question is, why are not the pilots armed and why is not the cockpit door stronger?
It could not have been that the pilot's were forced to do this. I think anyone would rather die than do such a thing. If I were going to die anyway, I'd tell the terrorist to go screw his mom. Excuse my language. The terrorists must have known how to fly the plane, or else they SEVERELY tortured the pilots.
The 'Ists had to gain access to the cockpit. Cockpits need stronger doors and the pilots should be armed with guns.
Agreed.
That's still not enough. You still need devoted pilots who won't do these kinds of things no matter what.
Um, the pilots didn't. They were clearly killed or removed frm the cockpit.
Yes, I belive that the fourth plane, the one that crashed into the pittsburgh area probably crashed because the pilot of that plane decided to take it out on his own accord then either fly it or allow the idiots highjacking it to its intended terrorist destination.
JeremyWills
That sounds likely.
We'll know a lot more when the black box recorders are examined by the FAA.
Report in the Boston Globe this morning was that there were people making cellphone calls to land destinations from aboard the flight stating everyone had been removed from the cockpit and the seating area and were moved to the back of the plane. The airline pilots did not have training to deal with a terrorist who intends to sabotage a plane rather than allow it to land in a "hostage" airport. You cannot blame them for that; it is an unlikely (although completely foreseeable) scenario. The issue now is not to try to prevent anybody from doing this ever again, the goal is to WRECK SUCH DESTRUCTION ON THE FUCKERS so that no one would DARE to try it again. Combating guerrila warfare/terriorism with the same is the only way to eliminate it. Until they grow smarter with say, biological weapons, that is.
Current reports are saying the hijackers had knives and boxcutters and mace as weapons (maybe more). It's time to train and arm pilots/crew to be able to defend against these kinds of things. I always have a fear of flying but if this kind of thing can happen so easily and so coordinated I might as well not fly at all.
They also have to beef up security (that is, make security for REAL) in the airlines and airports, and permanently. 'Cause its no secret that its currently a joke.
I understand. I was thinking of what likely had happened to EgyptAir Flight 800... Then again the chances of that happening again is not very likely I admit.
It's really hard to "Monday morning quarterback" this one. The flight data recorders and passenger manifests will be examined and then we'll know a lot more.
Personally, if I know for a fact I am going to die, then, yes, I would say "To hell with this, I can at least try to prevent a catastrophe before I go" and do what I can to interfere.
But, again, we really don't know a whole lot about what went on. I won't second-guess anyone on this.
There will be a lot of finger-pointing at the airport security checks, that's for sure. Careers may be ended connected with that.
Personally, if I know for a fact I am going to die, then, yes, I would say "To hell with this, I can at least try to prevent a catastrophe before I go" and do what I can to interfere.
I believe everyone on board the aeroplane would have thought the same thing if they knew they were going to be crashed into the World Trade Center or some similar center of population. The fact is, with the pilots out of the cockpit, no one has any idea what is going to happen. They cannot see out the front window, they don't know what's happening. The crashes happened so close to one another that none of the "later" planes could have been notified or been aware of the news. The terrorists arranged this very well -- and this is to their credit. However, they need to be minced. NOW.
The destruction of te World trade center proved someone was either sleeping on the job or was caught with thier pants or panties down.
Well, I mean you can't really stop people from bringing plastic box cutters on aircraft. The lowest cost avoider is increasing secuity for the pilots. You need a stronger barrier between pilots and cabin (although there are some problems with pressurization I am conficent that an engineering solution can be found) and pilots should carry guns and flight attndants should carry pepper spray (remember air rage?).
I agree. Also, the technology exists to detect non-metallic weapons at airport security checkpoints, but has been rejected over the years because it was "too costly" or "an inconvenience." Now we just may get to see how costly and inconvenient it is to enter a Third World War.
-- David
Chicago, IL
bring back the armed federal sky marshals like in the 70's
>>> and pilots should carry guns <<<
Mike;
I suppose you are a firearms expert and know what training (original and refresher) is necessary to be proficient with a hand gun. Quite frankly I want the pilots flying the plane. There was a time when highjackings of airliners were common, that armed sky marshals were placed on airliners. El Al still uses them, but American carriers found them too expensive. I don't believe that a sky marshal ever thwarted a hijacking, and IIRC, one rode along on a hijacking to Cuba without taking any action, but the knowledge that they were there probably prevented some hijackings.
Tom
I don't believe that a sky marshal ever thwarted a hijacking, and IIRC, one rode along on a hijacking to Cuba without taking any action...
You are correct - it happened on an Eastern Airlines flight back in 1975. I was a passenger on that plane, but that's another story for another time.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Most pilots are retired from the Air Force and would already be trained.
In the US we play a cost-benefit game. To have lots of conveniences and not spend a lot of our GNP on security, we accept a certain risk of death by terrorism. Is the number and magnitude of incidents over the past 20 years acceptable - eg was our payoff what we expected?
Obviously part of that is a judgment call, and many of us will disagree with each other about it.
About fifteen years ago there was an effort to develop a jet fuel that was non-flammable at atmospheric pressure. The objective was to eliminate the fires associated with air crashes. They even conducted a test with a 707 or 727 with dummies in the passenger compartment. The test was a failure and interest in the idea literally went up in flames.
Part of the cost benefit equation at that time was that only an aircraft and its passengers would be involved. It may be time to re-examine this research, now that it has been demonstrated that collateral damage on the ground can be an order of magnitude greater.
I would certainly agree.
Jet fuel, that is, kerosene, is is not that volatile. It is heavier than gasoline, and doesn't explode as readily as gasoline. It must be "atomized" as it goes into the engine, to increase exposure of fuel surface area to oxygen, to make it work as a fuel.
Still, when ignited it burns fiercely. A lot of work needs to be done before a truly safer fuel becomes available - one that burns nicely and gives good thrust in an engine but fizzles if you throw a tank full of it at a target.
A boxcutting knife. And I don't think it matters if the cockpit doors are stronger (although it would help, and titanium bar locks too.), the cockpit's door is open during boarding, and consider the facts. How could the hi-jacker get his position?
If he did it during boarding, he would get caught on the spot. But when? Black box?
Also, I wonder if there was ANYTHING wrong with the announcements with the AA flights, because if he sounded like a crook, the passengers would know. What happened to the captain of those four flights?
Hi,
Does anyone know if any of the trains are running OUT of Queens and into Manhattan? Or if the LIRR is running? I am stuck at work.
Thank you, Laurel
I hear mostly everything is running. Go to The TA's site to check it out.
Supposedly, the L can get you to 14st
where the 4-5-6 are on... or take the
L to 8th Ave and transfer to the 1-2-3.
I just saw on ABC that Air Traffic controlers knew that they had a rogue airplane for about 17 minutes. No communications and clearly violating its flight plan heading on a beeline to New York City. Are you telling me that there was no one the controler could have called to scramble fighters to intercept this flying bomb? Surface to Air missiles have a range of 90 miles, why were not these used as they were also tracking the second plane during and AFTER the first one made its suicide run.
Was the pilot in control of the plane? - Maybe this is a stupid question, but if i were the pilot and I was told to aim for the WTC, I would just let the hijackers shoot me and let the plane crash in the river. I know this may be tough but it would be better to sacrifice the lives on board than to kill thousands more.
There is speculation that the hijackers themselves were capable of flying aircraft such as those crashed today. One report also speculated that the hijackers killed the pilots and crew then flew the planes into their respective targets.
wayne
That's possible. You would only need one pilot and he could fly at low altitude by landmarks. The rest of his crew could be just thugs with no special skills.
Flying a plane isn't nearly as hard as LANDING a plane, something that they weren't overly concerned with.
Would you possibly believe that a pilot would do a thing like that! I don't! If I were to to be there, the plain would have ended in LI Sound.
Arti
It's almost completely definite that the pilot was working on the side of the terrorists. As for why the jets and/or missiles didn't quickly scramble and bring down the plane, well, it's a very unusual and unexpected event for a plane to intentionally crash into the WTC, and was probably the farthest thing from the ATC and Dept. of Defense's minds at the time.
<< It's almost completely definite that the pilot was working on the side of the terrorists. >>
Stupidest thing I've read in a long time. You should be ashamed of yourself!
He means the pilots WERE terrorists. Likely the flight crews were incapacitated before they crashed.
-Hank
Any idiot with minimal training can fly a plane in good clear weather. Landings, takeoffs, weather, night flying are what make it tough. Remember those kiddie pilots?
Just like the subway, in the words of school car "A six year old could operate this thing". On bring your kids to work day some did.
They operated on the simulator not in passenger service.
Subway trains have one degree of freedom: go/stop. No pitch, no roll, no yaw.
Have you ever flown in the cockpit of a 767 or 757? I have. Many times. This is not a toy airplane. It is a very sophisticated, fly-by-wire, computer-controlled aircraft. With a working assumption that the terrorists took control of the aircraft away from the airline pilots, they would have had to have significant training in this specific aircraft type, either in a simulator on on a real aircraft (the 767 and 757 cockpits are virtually identical, and the FAA issues a single license endorsement for both types).
No offense but who cares? They hit the damn targets didn't they?
Eric D. Smith
He's saying that these people had to have been trained, not just the average Joe who plays MS Flight Sim for an hour a day.
Wanna bet? It isn't all that hard to maintain level flight in clear weather. The tricky part was turning and aiming. MS Flight Sim can, in certain cases, be substituted for training hours.
-Hank
My wife heard a report that the hijackers killed the pilots on at least one plane and flew it themselves.
Earlier I heard a report (on NPR, I think) that all three people who were convicted in the African embassy bombings had pilot's licenses.
Boston Globe reports that flight manuals were found in a rented Mitsubishi left at the airport.
I also thought I heard that 2 suspects who were involved with this incident were in custody at a hotel.
--Mark
It is believed the terrorists piloted the planes themselves into the targets.
We don't have the military shooting down civilian planes as a policy. That may change.
Shooting down a plane flying over land may not be great option.
It sure makes you wonder how prepared that military is.
It sure makes you wonder how prepared the military is.
You're assuming there was some doubt.
No it doesn't. You can't account for these actions. If there was a genuine MILITARY threat, there would be more warning.
-Hank
What I'd like to know is how in the HELL do you take down 4 planes with a knife? I could see it with a gun, but come on...you can kick a blade out of someone's hand. That just doesn't add up to me.
60 or so some odd passengers pussied out and killed thousands more as a result.
How can you blame the passengers? That is not logical at all. I can't belive you just said that. That's terrible.
I can't believe that you posted that!
I strongly doubt that the hijackers made any announcement of their intent regarding the WTC.
The passengers probably died having no knowledge of their part in this, the world's greatest tragedy. They more than likely suspected that their destination was a remote airport in Cuba or Mexico!
>>> I can't believe that you posted that! <<<
Now you know where he got the nickname "Jerky Mike."
Tom
Now you know why he's in my killfile.
Asshole.
Let me get a knife to your throat. See how people around you react. Betcha no one does anything but run for help.
-Hank
I would give my life to stop a terrorist. Everyone in this country should be expected to do the same. This is war and we are all soldiers in it.
Thats what happens when no one is doing their job.
BREATHE THROUGH YOUR NOSE. No one 'wasn't doing their jobs'. You can't predict the actions of terrorists. That's why they're called TERRORISTS.
-Hank
The term becomes more understandable when you add the term Fanatic.
No one can reason with a fanatic.
Not since 1990. At one time, there were hot squadrons at McGuire and Stewart AFBs (tasked to SAC). With the incredibly reduced nuclear threat, SAC has been officially in 'stand down' for nearly a decade.
-Hank
There are NJANG fighters based in Pamona. Those were the ones that got in trouble because they were using commercial jets for intercept practice.
I sent the following text as an email to my team at AT&T and thought I would share it with all of you as well. Please note that this is an expression of my opinion and NOT an official statement on behalf of my employer!
Today we are all Americans.
Together, we have witnessed a terrorist attack the likes of which has never been seen before in this country. We do not yet know from whence it came - from within or without. All we know is that thousands have died senselessly because an organized group of terrorists has chosen to strike fear into our hearts. To one extent or another, we are all victims of this attack. Some may have been touched directly, by the loss of family; others of us have been touched by the loss of friends. Regardless of how, none of us are unaffected, none of us can stand back as though it did not impact us, because it has. The attackers did not choose their victims based on their place of birth, their citizenship, their ethnicity, their faith, or any other such criteria; they chose their victims because they lived and worked in America.
At AT&T we celebrate diversity. Today, however, we must remember the common thread that binds us all together, and work together as Americans to ensure that these terrorists do not win. We must conquer the fear that they seek to instill in us. America is our home, a home which we have every right to expect we can enjoy in peace. We cannot let them take that away.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I like that. A great post.
GEN Njob. We need that at times like this.
Good job. We need that at times like this.
wow
i agree what a great thing to say
thanks to the author of that msg
JeremyWills
Wow there are almost 700 messages in the last 24 hours was this an all time record?
Ask David pirmann. He runs this Three ring circus.
This goes way beyond anything we've ever experienced so the posts are appropriate. Great job Dave!
Eric D. Smith
This does indeed go above and beyond. I am nowhere near NY, but i am very appreciative of all of you who kept posting to keep everyone up to date. As I was talking to a fellow subtalker, we both realized what a vital piece of information Subtalk has been to keep us up to date.
Especially when CNN went ka'put.
The average is 500 a day. Things were pretty hot around last November.
at 10 PM let all subtalker take a minute of silent pray for the injured and killed
AMEM
Is it just me or does anyone else feel the same? That's whats making this all unbelievable and unbearable!
Regards,
Trevor Logan
www.transitalk.com
A lot of people are saying that this is exactly like a movie or a Tom Clancy novel.
It's surreal. You look out your window, close your eyes and hope it won't be there when you open them but it is.
It is unimaginable.
Or perhaps "Executive Decision" with Kurt Russell.
When I first saw the images of the twin towers on fire it looked surreal, then I saw the 2nd plane fly into it, looked like a scene out of some action movie. Then when the towers collapsed, my sense of fear, awe multiplied as my heart dropped 110 stories.
New York will never be the same. I will never be the same. Hold your loved one (if you have one) real tight and never let them go. I think I'm starting to cry I gotta go.
I've been thinking the exact same thing all day.
There's a quiet anger inside of me. Words cannot desribe how evil whoever is responsible for this attack. Loss of a major part of New York, the World Trade Center, which crumbled down to the earth.
Fear about my safety.
And as I saw the towers fell, words cannot describe what I felt inside. One of the largest engineering feats in NYC....gone in a matter of hours. And hundreds, possibly thousands of innocent lives....gone. I'm in shock now, but I have a feeling I'm gonna have alot of crying to do.
I agree! Its to the point I don't even want to go to work tonight!
Trevor
Hi,
Does anyone know if the PATH train is running along the 33rd st line?
Can you get in or out on it?
Thanks.
Laurel
This information is current as of 2 minutes ago! PATH is Running full Service!
Regards,
Trevor Logan
www.transitalk.com
Yes. This is yet another post on the senseless attack on the World Trade Center attack. I'm sure there are a lot of other posts on this tragedy, maybe some others who had my vantage point. I don't care. If you are getting sick of this, don't read it.
Now, let me cut to the chase...
As most of you probably know, I attend Stuyvesant H.S. Stuyvesant's present location is battery park city, roughly 3-4 blocks north of the south tower. While many of the vantage points to the towers have been blocked by residential developments, there are still a few places where you have (had) a great view of WTC 1 and 2.
Anyway, at 8:45, the first plane slammed into one of the towers. At this time, I was leaving my first period class, and had no idea of the tragedy that had just occured. My friend said his class heard a BOOM!. His teacher remarked that he, "...hadn't heard something like that since the World Trade Center was bombed..."
After this, I had a free period. I was going to do my economics homework, but there was a rumor around that a plane had slammed into one of the 2 towers. I decided that economics could wait. This was, afterall, the Twin Towers.
I arrived at the Stuyvesant Library just after the second impact. We could see flames and smoke. The tower with the antenna could be seen with damage, the other tower was engulfed in smoke. The scene was horrible. The worst part was seeing people leaping out of the towers, knowing that they would be dying. Yes, that was horrific. And extremely saddening.
I reported to my next class, one with a worse vantage point. But, I could still see the south tower. Anyways, we were watching the ever calm Pat Kearnan on NY1 have a phone conversation with one of the field reporters. Suddenly, she exclamed, "oh my god!!! It's coming down!!!" I peered out the window and watched as the south tower came down on rescue personnel. Yes, it was frightening. There was a loud boom, and the electricity went out for a split second.
Afterward, we went to homeroom, where we were assembled and evacuated. We were walked uptown, with no target, just to get away. By now, the second tower had come down, and debris was raining down.
After my friend and I reached 14th street, we decided we'd head for the "L" train. We were dissapointed when it was closed, and we headed for midtown, with hopes of catching a bus or cab...
If you were in manhattan, you know that our hopes were dashed. Buses were packed, and many bypassed stops. And, eventually, traffic came to a standstill. My friend and I actually outpaced much of the vehicles. Cabs actually refused to take fares because of the traffic.
We eventually made it to our destination, and we were eventually able to board a downtown F train at 53rd and Lex. It was crammed. But we eventually got to Jay St, Bklyn where we saw an A train along it's normal route.
I will miss the towers, which have been wiped from the skyline. The NYC skyline. I hope they build the towers back.
I know people will probably say that they would provide a new target. But, what about the Empire State? The Chrysler? Should we just keep allowing our skyline to be trimmed down until terrorists decide it's low enough?
If there was one positive point, it was the resopnse made by the citizens and workers of NYC. People were helpful. And, as we marched up West St, we saw fleets of FedEx trucks headed to the scene to be used as medical transports. It was touching.
Someone here has posted something about 'stop the racist posting'. I didn't see all the responses, but take this into consideration: In palestine, people are cheering, dancing in the streets. REJOICING that children have lost a parent, a sibling, a child. Palestinian children handing out candy because people lost their lives. So you can take that 'racism' bull and shove it.
September 11th. A day that will live in infamy...
"If there was one positive point, it was the resopnse made by the citizens and workers of NYC. People were helpful. And, as we marched up West St, we saw fleets of FedEx trucks headed to the scene to be used as medical transports. It was touching."
That's why New York, for all its problems, is and always will be THE GREATEST CITY IN THE WORLD.
I heard a radio reporter from WCBS today who said the most prominent thing he noticed through the debris cloud after 1 WTC went down was the Statue of Liberty across NY Harbor...That says it all!
We are waiting on word of one possible fatality in the railfan fraternity--will update when information is available.
Regards,
George Chiasson Jr.
(Widecab5@aol.com)
I will say a prayer in the hope you get good news.
--Mark
September 11 = 9/11 = 9-1-1.
Ya think??
September 11 happens to be the anniversary of the Camp David Peace Accords. That is a black day for terrorists like Osami bin Laden.
As well as the date of the British Mandate for Palestine (according to the NY Post).
Thank you for sharing your experience of witnessing the bombing from inside Stuyvesant. I was a student there from 1996-2000, so I was particularly interested in finding out how the school handled everything.
New Jersey Transit service into Penn Station is limited, LIRR Service is back to normal!
Regards,
Trevor Logan
Trevor--
What did you finally end up running tonight?
Michael
I ran the depot and did shifting work, I was not going on the road!
Regards,
Trevor Logan
www.transitalk.com
Would it be at all possible for me to get to Philly via Amtrak/NJT within the next two weeks?
via NJT and SEPTA starting tomorrow at 6am you can go. Amtrak is unknown!
Trevor Logan
I've seen (heard) two sources that say Amtrak is running its normal schedule.
WRTI radio (Philly) and Trains Magazine online
Amtrak trains out of Chicago are running at full capacity, and are adding extra cars to all trains as rolling stock becomes available. In addition, Amtrak is honoring all valid airline tickets to cities that Amtrak serves.
-- David
Chicago, IL
It's 8:50 pm. Things are finally beginning to calm around here. And this is one of the first places to which I'm posting.
We could see the World Trade Center from the far end of our building. Some of our people saw it go down (I didn't), and they were very upset.
Of course, we've been dealing with the service impacts all day, but I can tell you that the most important phone calls and e-mails I made and received were NOT from the media. They were from:
-My wife.
-My PR colleagues at the Port Authority, all of whom are safe.
-My friend Jesse, who works at the Pentagon.
-My aunt, who told me that my mom, grandmother and aunt(they're on Upper West Side near Columbia) and my uncle (who works in midtown) were all safe.
-My friend Tim, who lives in the Village and works for the New York Times.
God took care of them. And he's taking care of many others right now that are with him.
Let's all pray for each other.
Michael
Mike- I need a delay letter. Please send it to Peggy Darlington. Her address is :Peggy Darlington
93 Jersey Ave
Edison, NJ 08820
I nedd the letter to specify that NJT has no service to Newark (in bound) from MetroPark.
Mike- I need a delay letter. Please send it to Peggy Darlington. Her address is :Peggy Darlington
93 Jersey Ave
Edison, NJ 08820
I nedd the letter to specify that NJT has no service to Newark (in bound) from MetroPark.
The fact that any employer would ask for a delay letter under these circumstances makes me want to barf.
NYCT is like the Army. I face courtmartial-- I need to build my case.
Peggy--
If you go through Newark, stop by customer service and ask if they have one. Otherwise, you can call the cust serv number (1-800-772-3606 in NJ) and ask for one.
Unfortunately, we're inundated over here, so I can't help.
MWK
I just noticed that the MTA website is now back up, and it lists the following Subway service in effect (as of 7 PM):
--------------------
Most service has resumed with the exception of the 3, C, and the Q Express.
All stations in Manhattan from Canal Street and south of Canal Street will be bypassed. Service on the following lines have been restored:
A (207th St to Far Rockaway by F Line from Jay Street to West 4th St)
B (34th St/6th Av to 205th St)
D (205th St to 34th/6th Av)
E (Parsons Archer to West 4th St)
F (179th St to Stillwell Av)
G (Continental Av to 4th Av)
J (Parsons Archer to East New York)
L (Rockaway Park to 14th St/8th Av)
M (Shuttle from Metropolitan Av to Broadway/Myrtle)
N (Stillwell Av to Astoria.)
Q (Stillwell Av to 21st St, Brooklyn)
R (95th St to Lawrence and Court Sts)
W (Stillwell Av to DeKalb Av)
1 (242nd St to Times Sq)
2 (Shuttle from White Plains to 96th St. Also Shuttle from Flatbush Av to Atlantic Av)
3 (Shuttle from 135th St to Lenox Av. Also Shuttle from New Lots Av to Utica Av)
4 (South-bound Woodlawn Rd to Grand Central. Also Shuttle from Utica Av to Atlantic Av. Also north-bound Brooklyn Bridge to Woodlawn Rd)
5 (Dyre Av to E. 180th St)
6 (South-bound Pelham Bay to Grand Central. North-bound Brooklyn Bridge to Pelham Bay.)
7 (Main St to Times Sq)
Grand Central Shuttle (Normal Service)
Buses are operating in Manhattan above Houston Street. Buses are operating in each of the four remaining boroughs but are experiencing traffic backups in many locations.
--------------------
source: http://www.mta.nyc.ny.us/emergency/emernyct.htm
It won't matter to me for tomorrow, as my office (Hudson St. at West Houston) is within the below-14th-Street closed zone. Actually, even if my office weren't in that zone, I'd be out tomorrow anyhow, as my wife told me that I wasn't going in - not that she didn't want me to go in, or that it wouldn't be a good idea for me to go in, but that I wasn't going in, period, end of discussion. And I'm glad she said that too.
Does this mean the N is currently running through Rector and Cortlandt stations?? Some sketchy news reports are also saying PATH trains running in both directions. This at least provides some solace that not as much damage was sustained below ground than expected.
That's a good question. I highly doubt that the stations are intact, since I remember hearing that Cortlandt was very close to the towers.
The advisories also indicate that the MannyB is shut down, because neither the W or Q leave Brooklyn.
So what's the N doing?
No I think the information in the page is wrong - the "Q" (the Circle) is running to 21st-Queensbridge; there is NO 21st ANYTHING station in all of Brooklyn. And it's no doubt running via the bridge.
wayne
Apparently Rutgers tunnel is the only one running from Lower Manhattan to Brooklyn right now, with the A and F trains. If that continues through Wednesday morning the Franklin Shuttle between Prospect Park and Fulton Street is really going to be jammed, as will the transfer between the F and the R trains at Fourth Ave. and Ninth Street.
Good thing the Shuttle was rebuilt, eh?
All 4/5 skip all stops from 14 to boro hall." All stations in Manhattan From Canal Street and South of Canal will be bypassed." (Qoute from MTA website).
as of 1115 am
A runs on F
1 runs 242 to 34.2 ends at 34 with a shuttle from fglatnush to atlantic. 3 shuttle 135 to 148
E ends at W4, J ends at essex, M at Bwy Myrtle. Split N- Astoria to 34 and Stilwell to Court. R ends at Court (Boro Hall)
now between the lines" looks like the BMT and IRT river tubes are closed due to Rector Street. Looks like the A tube is closed.
No mention of high street- expect it is closed.
Note- they are probably issuing G.O. tickets at stations with no trains to shuttle bus service but I have no official info.
No PATH service is going to Cortlandt St. New York PATH service is between Penn Station and the river.
Dan
AFAIK the PATH tunnels to WTC passed directly beneath the complex. In fact, when construction began, the tubes were fully exposed and had to be cradled. There was a photo on the 107th floor observatory of this.
For the most part, Philadelphia was a ghost town starting at around 12:00pm. The tragic events in NYC did have some major impacts on SEPTA service (I've posted more of the bus and Regional Rail details in my BusTalk posting).
While SEPTA reported that they had added extra service to the Market Frankford El, I hadn't really noticed a major difference in service levels as compared to a normal mid-day service pattern.
The El and BSS also took a lot of displaced RRD riders when 6 SEPTA Regional Rail Lines (Airport, Marcus Hook/Wilmington, Paoli, Cynwyd, Trenton, and Chestnut Hill West) were shut down due to Amtrak's suspending service (which was the right call, given the situation). The Elwyn Line was the only ex-PRR line operating during the shutdown (although it runs near the mainline NEC, the Elwyn Line tracks are owned by SEPTA, so service wasn't as affected as badly).
In fairness to SEPTA, I wasn't on the Broad Street Line today, so I don't know what happened there. However, express trains from Walnut-Locust to Fern Rock do run during the mid-day hours, so the impact travel-time wise may not have been as severe; plus the RRD trains serving Fern Rock were still operating for the most part.
While I'm relieved that this didn't happen in Philadelphia, that doesn't lessen my concerns for the families affected in NYC, DC, and Western Pa...
Does anybody know how Chinatown is?? Was it choked in that cloud of smoke. Is it evacuated? Has there been any damage or casualties in that area? I know it is a little close for comfort to what was the WTC. I haven't heard about Chinatown in the news at all. If anybody has any information about Chinatown please let us know.
There is an SCA radio station called CWCB that was on the air, but it is now nothing but static. I can't imagine all the NYC TV stations except channel 2 are off the air. I always thought they had backup transmitters at other locations. Channels,4 and 7 are operating on UHF. WNBC is on channel 34. WABC is on WNYE but the signals are weak. Channel 11 is in the same location but with a very weak signal.
I wonder how long it will be till all the on-air signals are restored. And another reason to get cable, apparently they have signals on cable they get a seperate feed.
Yes, all channels function on cable television.
Chinatown is a sizeable distance from WTC 1 and 2 (or what used to be 1 and 2). It has escaped this directly, but indirectly, it is suffering like the rest of the city...
Cable systems get their programming by satellite, microwave or fiber optics. If the Chinese Sub-Carrier station uses WNYC or WPAT as their main frequency, your static exists because they don't have a back-up transmitters.
WNBC is on 26 for me and WABC is on 25.
In NYC, Ch 7 is being carried on Ch 25; Ch 4 is being carried on Ch 31. Can't find a FOX broadcast. Cable is carrying multiple feeds. ESPN was carrying ABC News; TNT and TBS were carrying CNN; yesterday all Viacom cable stations were carrying CNN, Home SHopping Network and the like were running either a PSA explaining they were off the air, or a test pattern. WWOR is completely dead; not even on cable.
-Hank
> WWOR is completely dead; not even on cable.
This is Ch. 9 right? I'm getting that on my cable here in JC.
The volume must be crapy right
They were dead as of 4AM this morning, having been off the air since the time of the attack.
-Hank
I live out in Flushing. I have no problems getting WCBS (ch 2). They never moved their transmitter from the Empire State to the WTC, so they were not affected.
The only other VHF station I get is ch 11. Their signal is weaker than normal. I don't know how they are transmitting because their normal transmitter was atop the WTC. All the other VHF station appear to be out.
Ch 7 appears to be providing a feed to ch 25 (Brooklyn), ch 50 (Montclair) and ch 68 (NJ). I can get ch 41 (Newark) which is broadcasting in Spanish. Channels 31, 47 and 63 appear to be out.
I can't imagine all the NYC TV stations except channel 2 are off the air. I always thought they had backup transmitters at other locations.
Just after the WTC bombing some years ago CBS was the only station to have a backup transmitter, atop the Empire State Building. All other networks were off the air (at least for those without cable, like me at the time) because they could only broadcast VHF from the WTC.
The only channels I can get on the non-cable TV's are 2, 11 (faintly), 25 and 68. Seems like 25 has become a temporary ABC affiliate, carrying all of channel 7 and ABC's coverage. Fortunately we do have cable at home so I can see everything, just not while at my computer.
I first found about the attack this morning while driving to work down Lawrence Avenue towards O'Hare. I came around a corner and saw a large black cloud of smoke over the general direction of O'Hare, and immediately thought that a plane had crashed. "Oh my God," I said to myself.
I had been listening to a CD up until then, but immediately turned the radio to NewsRadio 780 AM to find out what the story was. They were frantically talking about a plane wreck and large fire, so for a few seconds I assumed they were talking about O'Hare. I then gasped in horror when I realized they were talking about the World Trade Center towers.
I never did find out what caused that smoke cloud over the airport, so I assume it wasn't anything major. By the time I got to the office, everybody was already gathered around a small TV set in our director's office. 30 years from now, I'm sure we'll all remember where we were when we found out about this attack.
We soon had a briefing at our O'Hare field office, where they told us we were free to head home, or to stick around in case help was needed over at the terminals. We hung around and watched the TV coverage, and then finally headed home around 3:00 when we were told that the situation over at the terminals was under control.
I got home and watched the news some more, and then headed down to my church, Fourth Presbyterian in Streeterville, for an evening prayer service. At this point Fourth Church seemed like the only safe place I could go. The prayer service was very moving, and I said a prayer for New York City and our nation.
Downtown Chicago was eerily quiet in what should have been the height of evening rush hour. There were still people around, but very few compared to normal. The Hancock Center and most of the other high-rises were still shut down, there was a heavy police presence, and cars were being towed away left and right. My ride home on the CTA Red Line was uneventful.
Chicago, along with the rest of the nation, is in total shock over what happened in NYC and Washington. Because we also have a number of tall landmark skyscrapers, and because we've traditionally had a very close relationship with New York City, I think we feel particularly shocked and vulnerable. In some ways New York is like a big brother to us, and our brother has been badly hurt.
But make no mistake: New York will rise again. Early Chicago was built in large part by former New Yorkers seeking fortune in the country's heartland, and when Chicago burned in the Great Fire of 1871, New York helped more than any other city to rebuild the devastated Chicago. I think I can safely speak for all Chicagoans in hoping that we're able to return the favor in kind.
God bless all of you, and God bless America.
-- David
Chicago, IL
Dave,
I am glad things are ok out there. This kinda tragedy could have happened in any major city...plane coulda been hijacked at O'Hare, and headed for Sears Tower. -Nick
From what I heard they aren't going to rebuild. They are going to turn it into a giant park.
Very moving words David, thank you.
I believe a new World Trade Center should rise like a phoenix from the ashes of the old.
www.forgotten-ny.com
I have the perfect plan to re-build on the old WTC site.
5 Towers.
4 Smaller ones.
1 Really tall one
In the Middle
(Facing New Jersey if you like.)
What better way to express the New York City opinion of terrorists.
Ilike that! That's cool.
Okay, not bad. A huge memorial on the roof of the big one, and a picture of New Yorkers, of all races and colors, holding hands with an image of the old WTC behind them. Perfect way to show our country's strength.
How about picture of New Yorkers, of all races and colors, all giving terrorists the finger with an image of the old WTC behind them.
Seriously, if they ever build the World Trade Finger I don't think terrorists would mess with NYC again.
But which finger?
It's pretty apparent which finger unless you support this tragedy in any way
Oops, then again maybe you're thinking of the American spirit... that I can understand. My bad.
Hell yeah! I like that idea. Kind of like what the shape of West Virginia says to those who study a map of the US. Give 'em the BIRD!
I LOVE IT!
I'm so excited. After a sleepless night, I finally got in touch with my good friend from college who worked in the trade centers. He made it out okay. I'm so relieved.
By the way, it may certainly be feasible to resue the WTC foundations. This is all speculation right now, and I don't know what if any damage they sustained. The foundation is a substantial part of a highrise, and resuing the existing foundations could cut reconstruction time and cost almost in half.
Give 'em the finger in a more subtle way: rebuild the towers faster, taller, and more beautiful than before! That'll steam those murderers something fierce.
MATT-2AV
Unlike me(who was at Bowling Green at the time of the 1st collapse) I don't think everyone's in a rush to rebuild the World trade Center(At least not until Those terrorist assholes have nuclear missels stuck up their ass).If a new tower is built
1.The FAA must be on high aleart and ATC can't be slacking off.
2.There should be a military defense strategy if this does happen again.
3.The Pentagon should be repaired or rebuilt.
4.The new Tower(s) should be a hell of alot more stronger than the last 2.
5.The 2 Schools and Century 21(All withi a block or 2 from the WTC o what remains) should be moved to a different location.
Clearly the Pentagon will be rebuilt. No question about that.
But it is just as clear that the commitment to rebuild the Center is critical to NY. I don't mean that the center will look exactly as it did three days ago. Fresh start, fresh look, updated building methods-absolutely. And its OK for some people to want to delay it significantly. Just as long as the decision-makers move ahead. A unanimous decision this will not be (can't be- this is NY). but a courageous decision it will be.
I totaly agree that the towers should be rebuilt...if anything...out of spite and the will to show the world that "We will not go quietly into that good night." This is New York City---the city that never sleeps and where anything and everything can happen---A memorial park is perfect for Oklahoma City--it fits their character---But not Manhatten--Our Memorial Park should come in the form of a 110-story tower--in fact....let's build 2 of them.
Yes. Put the memorial on an observation deck on top of the tallest replacement tower.
Sounds good to me.
The Pentagon Building lost about a 100-foot chunk but I can't tell how many rings in the damage went; no doubt it went in at least one, maybe two or more. It's a low-rise affair; rebuilding that section should not be that difficult.
wayne
The early reports said it went through E, D and C rings, with some damage to the B ring. Haven't heard anything since then, and the fire may have also cause some damage to the B and A rings.
I heard all the Rings in that section of the pentagon was destroyed.
>>5.The 2 Schools and Century 21(All withi a block or 2 from the WTC o what remains) should be moved to a different location.<<
When you say schools, what are you referring to? Pace University and..... Stuyvesant? BMCC? Stuy and BMCC went virtually unharmed, although Stuy is presently without power.
Moving the schools also says: "We know your going to successfully hit our towers again." Who'd want to work there if that were true?
>>By the way, it may certainly be feasible to resue the WTC foundations.<<
No. In no way is it anywhere near possible to use the existing twin tower foundations.
I keep seeing on CNN that the workers can't get into the WTC area. I know a possible way. Go to New Jersey and walk throught the PATH tubes. This could theoretically get highly trained rescue workers under the area. This, of course, would depend on the structural damage to the PATH station, which, I assume, is severe. Just a thought. If anyone posted this earlier, I didn't see it. Sorry. Even though I work at 137th Street, I don't think I'm going in tomorrow. I respect the Mayor's advice, and to tell you the truth, I'm still a litte scared.
PATH is 80 feet down, that's bunker level.
Odds are the tunnels at the New Jersey end are under heavily armed guard tonight, just in case there's the slightest possibility someone would try to tunnel walk to Manhattan with some type of explosive in an attempt to collapse the rubble pile on top of rescuers.
Actually, I heard that the WTC PATH station was being used as a triage for trauma victims.
Not that I heard, Hoboken was where the triage was located.
Mike
"Mr Mass Transit"
I saw a telecast on Channel 7 showing what NYC firefighters hosing down what appears to be what is left of 5 WTC- naught but a shell.
I recognized the building by the shape of it.
they have said that a) 266 firemen and b) 78 police lost.
my thoughts and prayers go out to all people affected by this tragedy.
wayne
My feelings exactly.
I saw it too. I'm surprised the old girl is still standing.....at least for now. It'll prpbably be knocked down at a later date.
It just occurred to me that commercial landlords in NYC are going to make out very well. Several million square feet of Class A office space - more than in some entire decent-sized cities - has been taken off the market more or less permanently, while at least a few million square feet will be unusable for weeks or months. NYC's office vacancy rate, which already had been lower than in most large cities, is now going to be basically zero for quite some time to come, as displaced businesses look for new sites.
Not a bad time to be a commercial landlord.
Any landlord thinking this way deserves to die. Also, I hope the former WTC is converted to a memorial and not used as real estate at all. Nothing against you or your post ^_^, but I hope there is no one that greedy around here. This is no time to think of money.
Rebuilding isn't greed. It's honorable and sensible. It honors the victims by saying "We resume your work in honor of your memory." There isn't only one right way to commemorate people, and, the solution that worked in Oklahoma City is not necessarily the right one in New York. I'd be the first one to move into office space like that, and I'd make sure everyone, including the monsters who tried to kick us down, knew why.
Rebuild it, only make it bigger; and build five of them, the one in the middle being biggest. Be sure to face it east.
Seriously, they should rebuild it. Anyone remeber the speech before the final battle in ID4?
-Hank
I say we'll be seeing construction cranes up in a matter of months. Two years from now, we'll see a new Center start to rise.
I say we'll be seeing construction cranes up in a matter of months. Two years from now, we'll see a new Center start to rise.
I'd like to see that too, but considering that this is New York, I'm not too hopeful.
Actually, there is no red tape, no hearings, no bullfeathers, Simply take the insurance settlement and rebuild the darn thing.
Elias
But what about the EIS?
Who CARES about the EIS? This is Manhattan, Just rebuild it!
wayne
Not with federal money. Someone will sue. I'm not saying this makes sense. Just that it has to be dealt with and not ignored.
Hopefully the planners working on the 2nd Avenue Subway don't volunteer to assist the reconstruction project.
If anything is rebuilt (and again, I say the families of the victims will have the final say on what will go on the site), the faster a project is begun the less likely it is to be slowed by the red tape and graft NYC construction projects are famous for. Anyone caught ripping off the city, state and Port Authoriy while the tragedy is still fresh in memory will be accorded ghoul status of epic proportions.
Out of honesty,I dot think any one is going to rebuid the center.And if they do rebuild all the towers they have to make some kind of reenforcement so this tragedy won't happen again.Plus some type of memorial needs to be built and the FAA will also needs some reenforcement(an off topic subject)
Pete, I fear quite the opposite. I think that NYC's reputation has been seriously harmed through no fault of it's own. The horrible image of the towers collapsing sends a message to businessmen every where. And that message is - if you locate in NYC or any other big city, you are in ground zero. I hope I am wrong. Not that any of this really matters at this time.....
I'm meeting a new boss next week, who seems like a pretty damned good guy... my suggestion to him will be this: we have no work at home policy - let's get one, now.
98% of the time, there is no reason for me to be at the office. i could to all i do at home, on arguably better equipment, even.
long and the short of it is this: a lot more people might end up working from home. 'telecommuting'. it'll free up valuable office space at the very least.
I don't think companies are all going to run screaming from the cities. where will they go? you can't hide. if someone wnats to target office buildings, they are easy enough to find, no matter where.
on the other hand though, the tourists are out of here. I think it'll be a long while before we see so many tourists in this town as we have in recent years.
I heard on News Radio 88 that they caught some guys with a car full of explosives heading towards the GWB. Maybe the f*cking bastards they caught will come clean about the other bombings. I get the terrible feeling this isn't over. Everyone please be careful for the next few days.
Tony
Amen to that. -Nick
I find myself getting ready for bed thinking today was a dream. I hope I'm right, even though I'm doubtful I'll wake up from this. I find myself seeing into the future, describing this day to my grandchildren. I find myself showing them the pictures I took atop the old WTC, telling them how, only about a month ago, I was standing atop it. I also find myself trying to explain why we humans do this to each other. Then, I find myself becoming silent, as there is no answer.
Goodnight my friends. God bless us all. Tomorrow will be a brighter day. :) And, for those who perished, the view atop the WTC was boring, was nothing, compared to the view of earth they have from heaven, now. No terrorist can take that away from them.
According the the New York Times, Rector St. station collapsed.
Ugh all around.
Seth
Rector is four blocks south of the WTC site. Does the Times explain how a station that far away was affected or did they just get the Rector and Cortlandt Street stations mixed up?
>>> Rector is four blocks south of the WTC site. Does the Times explain how a station that far away was affected or did they just get the Rector and Cortlandt Street stations mixed up?
Can you give a link to the article in question?
I just found it...
Here is the link.
Scroll through the article and you will get to the part about Rector Street.
David
The article talks about a street collapse near the Rector Street station. It does NOT say that the station has collapsed.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
It says the street collapsed onto the Rector Street station (not explicitly, but it seems implied)
Rector is four blocks south of the WTC site. Does the Times explain how a station that far away was affected or did they just get the Rector and Cortlandt Street stations mixed up?
We've all seen before how inaccurate the Times and other media outlets can be when reporting on transit issues. This is probably just another example.
Of course, if Cortlandt Street on the IRT has been collapsed, Rector Street will be essentially useless, orphaned from the rest of the system along with South Ferry.
Temporarily - until damage is accurately assessed and repairs are made.
These are extraordinary times. I think it's a safe bet resources will be made available to handle this.
As always,Ron,you bring light to an otherwise bark and bleak situation.:)
You can still access South Ferry from Bowling Green.
Bowling Green is closed. ALl East side trains runs non-stop from 14th to Boro Hall brooklyn except the 6 which will end at Bleecker and resume Northbound service at Spring.
"Of course, if Cortlandt Street on the IRT has been collapsed, Rector Street will be essentially useless"
Is this a fact ?
It seems everyone is speculating on the damage or destruction of the Rector and Corlandt St. stations. What is the real truth about them ?
Bill "Newkirk"
I heard at work that the Rector and Cortlandt street stations on the 1/9 suffered cave-ins. Also, that they will be rebuilt. This info comes from people involved in construction that I know quite well and I can trust their info. I also heard that some people were evacuated out of the PATH tunnels via turning the power off and walking them out to NJ under the river.
If they have to completely rebuild them will they be upgraded to ADA compliance (don't remember if they are already accessible or not)?
Rector Street Stations(BMT and IRT) are not ADA compliant. Cortlandt IRT is non-compliant. Cortlandt BMT is compliant for Brooklyn bound only and that only due to the WTC.
there goes the Second Ave subway[shesh]
Not necessarily. The money would come from a different pot. For the disaster its because the fed declared the site a disaster area. The 2nd Ave subway would be mostly state funded if the feds don't give us much money.
You must admitt this is one of the last things on the agenda right now.
I had the good fortune to be out of the city today. I flew into Los Angeles yesterday for 3 days of meetings out west, but have instead begun to drive home and have made it as far as Utah.
As I drove, I thought of many friends and business associates who work in the WTC. I also met some very kind people and saw some absolutely beautiful scenery, which has helped me to get past some of the anger and realize that this country will go on and recover.
When everything is known, I'm sure many of us will have lost friends, neighbors and loved ones. I hope everyone can quickly gain their own personal peace with what has happened and that we can all come together to help the many families which will be left without fathers or mothers.
I pray for the best for all SubTalkers family and friends.
CG
On behalf of myself, my family, and friends here in Ottawa and elsewhere in Canada, our heartfelt condolences go out to all New York and Washington members of this board for the horrific tragedy of today's events.
The mood was very sombre here in Ottawa as everyone was glued to the television screens witnessing these unspeakable events. Many Ottawans, as I'm sure many people around the world, identify with New York as a world class city where those who have visited feel right at home. We were all shocked that this could happen to such a great city.
Having worked as an intern for the Canadian Department of National Defence this summer, I can particularly identify with the people working in Washington at the Pentagon today. I cannot fathom such a tragedy happening in the offices where I worked.
I sincerely hope that no one here has lost any friends or family members to this unspeakably evil act. For those who have, again our condolences.
For those interested in what went on here today:
While I cannot speak for the other Canadian cities, Ottawa, being the National Capital of one of the US' closest allies, was understandably put on high alert.
All Canadian airports were closed down and all flights grounded, while international flights into the US were diverted to our airports. There was a bomb scare at the Parliament Buildings as a suspicious package was found near the east block, and Parliament Hill was evacuated. The World Exchange Plaza, our equivalent to the World Trade Centre, was evacuated. Security was increased at all federal buildings, and the police presence in the city was increased. The Department of National Defence was put on high alert both at the headquarters in Ottawa, and across the country.
I guess we can all only hope that the people responsible for this unspeakable act of cowardice are brought to justice quickly, and that their punishment is severe.
Police Commissioner Bernard Kerik has confirmed that three men in a van were arrested by the FBI on the Jersey side of the GWB. They did not have explosives in the van.
Dan
Worth well more than 1,000 words.
The American flag in it still proudly waves. Yeah baby!
I don't know how relevant it is but the date was 9-11-2001
Arti
It was stated on the news that Sept.11th was the anniversary of the Camp David accords.
Bill "Newkirk"
I think it was 9/17 - negotiations were underway on 9/11, I believe.
--Mark
9/11/2001 MEANS 911 EMERGENCY DAY FOR US!
Terribly relevant. Terribly. I was thinking the same thing.
-F.
Cloudless skies for yesterday and today too. Let me repeat, CLOUDLESS. If the morning dew was heavy or if there was fog or rain, the plans for the terrorism might have been a total fiasco. (WHICH I WISH IT WAS!)
I heard from the News that Officials state the hi-jackers had been trained for airplane piloting, and the plan has been created and planned, and re-thought of for a few months.
WHAT A TRAGIC EVENT. There's absolutely NOTHING in the world to compare this irony to. Also the DATE, 9-11-01 with 911 as the code for emergency.
Very ironic. Very. Very.
One of my favorite groups, Creedence Clearwater Revival, has a song called "Have you ever seen the rain?". That is a shortening of the line in the song--
"Have you ever seen the rain, coming down on a sunny day?"
After yesterday, we can all sadly say yes. May the deceased RIP.
To all of you in NYC,especially those with loved ones now in a better place, my condolences. This is such a great senseless and violent act of cowardice. To those of you who had to deal with this first hand and have made it out alive, I am deeply sorry for you. And to the people who participated willingly in this horrible act, I feel sorry for you too that you have to feel this way against us. And heart goes out to the people that were on those planes, I deeply regret that you had to go through this tragdey as well.
Peace to all the world
JeremyWills
I could not have said it better. My thoughts exactly.
-F.
Here in the UK our thoughts and prayers are with you all.
It just so happens that I'm in London on business this week (I live in Chicago).
This has been an interesting time to be in London. Listening to the news reports on the British media have provided some interesting sides of the story which the American press seldom covers. This certainly is a tragedy of global proportions.
Our London offices were closed and evacuated at about 3:30 PM yesterday afternoon (10:30 AM New York time). I guess it was feared that the building of an American company was a tempting target. There was increased security all over the city, and airline flights were barred from flying over the center of London (which would have affected operations at Heathrow were it not for the hundreds of trans-atlantic flights which had been cancelled). I tried to visit the Eye of London (the large Ferris Wheel on the Thames across from the Parliament), but it had been closed in fear of a terriorist attack.
This morning, shortly after I got to the office, we were evacutated once again, this time very quickly ("use the stairs, not the lifts, and exit the rear fire doors"). Not sure of the story, maybe a bomb threat, also heard a rumor of a package left in the lobby. Anyway, we're back inside now.
Hoping still to get my objectives for this trip accomplished this week before returning home Friday (assuming planes are once again flying).
-- Ed Sachs
The BBC has had the policy of referring to domestic (within Britain) terror incidents as committed by terrorists, and those abroad committed by "militants". I wonder whether they used the epithet "terrorists" or "militants" for the slime balls who did this one.
I managed to get a flight out of London to Chicago today and I'm home now, only one day late. Yesterday is was looking like I might be in London until the middle of next week.
While London isn't bad if you've got to be stranded somewhere, I'm glad I'm home.
-- Ed Sachs
(Off-topic for SubTalk, I'm aware)
Here in San Jose, CA everyone had/has their eyes and ears fixed on the events occurring in the NYC, DC, and PA areas. There is great sorrow as people here are showing support for our brothers and sisters not just in nationality, but in humanity. The lines at local blood donation centers here are 3 hours long. Almost 2 hours ago, I saw a man here in an NYPD sweatshirt, eyes glued to the television, hopelessly longing to be among the many heroes. I have seen things today that do not compare to anything I have seen or experienced in my relatively short (18 year old) life. I am forever changed by this, as is the world.
I will never forget being a small child not 10 years ago, looking up at the Twin Towers of the WTC. I will never forget the feeling when I couldn't see the top, thinking that the great structures went on forever into the sky. Now, upon seeing the towers erased from my city's skyline, I feel that this landmark must be rebuilt as a monument to the heroism and bravery displayed today, and also to the global cause of freedom and democracy. We must not surrender ourselves to fear, for at that point _they_ will have won, and humanity will have suffered a great loss.
May whatever G-D you believe in bless us all.
With condolences from everyone here in San Jose, the SF Bay Area, and the entire State of CA,
Ian M. Penovich
Today is the day when you're going to REALLY feel what happened yesterday as the shock factor begins to wear off from the stunning events that overwhelmed.
To all of my fellow New Yorkers, be MINDFUL of this when it finally comes down on each of you personally as the scope of the horror begins to gel in. As New Yorkers, remember that we're all above acting out like children and whooping on one another, ESPECIALLY in a situation like this.
Everybody's going to need to "talk amongst yourselves" here and wanted to let you know that hotlines have been established throughout the city to help you talk to someone who can help you cope. Among some of the places you can call if you need to talk it through, here are some sites:
http://naminyc.nami.org/phones.htm
http://www.queens.nyc.ny.us/depts/HealthAndHumanServices/health_details.htm
http://www.nyc.gov/html/mac/html/hotlines.html
http://www.theinsider.com/nyc/survive/013phone.htm
http://www.800lifenet.com/hush.html
Just remember, everybody's going to be truly overwhelmed today. PLEASE cut your friends AND your enemies some slack. We're all in this together, no matter who we are or where we live.
It has been said 3 is suspended and 4 north and southbound is like after union square, next stop Borough Hall, same in opposite direction. MAY GOD HAVE MERCY ON OUR SOULS
The worst part is that even after the rubble is cleaned up,the E will be forced to go into brooklyn or all in all terminate service.
You're overstating it.
There will have to be repair work done on tunnels and stations in the WTC area - and the federal FEMA money will help with this. We'll see the system operating as before within a few months, if not earlier.
There will have to be repair work done on tunnels and stations in the WTC area - and the federal FEMA money will help with this. We'll see the system operating as before within a few months, if not earlier.
In your dreams. This is New York, where it takes a year to repair a broken escalator in a subway station.
Let the mercy on their souls and our thoughts an prayers go right now to those people who were lost in the carnage. Our souls can wait our turns.
Amen.
-- David
Chicago, IL
Well Fred will be happy in a way that the N will most likely once again go over the bridge until this is fixed
The N is suspended between 34th Street and Court Street according to the TA site. The R is only running south of Court Street.
Of course, this is all subject to change at a moment's notice (if that).
The R could run local to Court or White Hall,the N run via Bridge,and Q Local could run to Forest Hills, The Q Exp to179th, and eliminate the E for Now
Retaliation is the name of the game. Forget international politics, and civil stability -- this is as if they have unleashed some nuclear weapon: mass destruction of property and people. Level the land of whomever is behind this attack. Go for it. I'm British, I'm a transportation manager who lived through dealing with Paddington rail crash and the Gauge Corner Cracking crisis -- not in shock, I'm just as willing to go to war over this as any American. Those fucking Eurocrats who believe they can sort this out diplomatically need their heads blown up!!!!!!!!
Don't htese type of thing happen much more offten where you come from
Exactly -- these things happen a lot in Britain and rest of Europe. It should not happen. These Eurocrats are too chicken to do anything about it, that's why Europe is in the shits that it is in today. I cannot sit here in silence and see the same thing happen to the USA. Therefore, we must take action.
Right On!!
BUSH, get off your TUSH!!
We gotta make sure we're incinerating the right country. We gotta get the one whose government is funding and directing this terrorism.
Bill "Newkirk"
Bill makes a very good point. While I too want to make someone pay for these horrable acts, the details that are leaking out seem to show that NOT all the folks that did this are from Afghanistan, e.g. some of the pilots were of Saudi & Iran origin. Also could this have been planned by Libia ?
Once we're sure, then I hope the US government doesn't wimp out.
Mr t__:-(
Bill makes a very good point. While I too want to make someone pay for these horrable acts, the details that are leaking out seem to show that NOT all the folks that did this are from Afghanistan, e.g. some of the pilots were of Saudi & Iran origin. Also could this have been planned by Libia ?
Once we're sure, then I hope the US government doesn't wimp out.
Mr t__:-(
Yesterday I happened to be working the 2 line , around 3 o'clock we started running shuttle services between Atlantic and Flatbush. After the first half walking through to clean the train out I noticed written in Magic marker Was KILL ALL ARABS ,then when we got back to Flatbush A Magazine store on the Outside was forced to close due to some Tension with people exiting the train station.All in All a very sad day LOts of people of all races just hugging and saying its doesnt seam real.It was Unreal being able to smell the Smoke from the WTC on Flatbush ave.
This is going to be reminisent of what happened just after Pearl Harbor was bombed in December 7, 1941. Anyone who was Japanese or of Japanese ancestry became targets and many were sent to interrent camps. While the conditions were better than in Europe and Asia it was still what I would have to call a normal reaction.
(BTW - I know this only from history books - I was born in 1951).
What will happen next? While one could hope that our reaction will be better than it was in 1941 I honestly don't think so.
About a couple of years ago, The New York Times reported that Arab store & restaurant owners on Atlantic Avenue were being investigated, for possibly contributing to Hamas and/or other terrorist organizations.
I do not know whether any such contributions were made. However, a few words said or scribbled in anger, in response to such a monumental tragedy, pale in comparison.
Because of these possible contributions, these establishments should not be patronized. If a person does support them, s/he may be personally financing the next assault - be it here, Israel (the only free country for all its citizens in the Mideast), or elsewhere.
>>> Because of these possible contributions, these establishments should not be patronized. If a person does support them, s/he may be personally financing the next assault <<<
And of course the corollary is that if these small businesses have not made any contributions, your boycott will help put an honest small businessman out of business for no good reason.
Tom
Among those things said by Guliani just minutes ago, all subway service north of 14th Street in Manhattan and in all other boros is normal. When conditions permit, all service should return to normal except for the 1, 2, and 3 trains south of 14th. My solution to that problem is to extend the number 4 to New Lots and the number 5 to Flatbush at all times. The cars would come from the unused cars on the 1, 2, and 3 since their routes aren't as long.
Why would the 2-3 trains have a problem after service is re-opened to lower Manhattan -- they turn off West Broadway at Park Place, two blocks north of the WTC.
It would probably be better to run the 2 to Flatbush, the 4 to New Lots, halt the 3 to allow space for the 1/9 to reverse at Chambers or run the 1/9 to New Lots, the 4 to Utica and loop the 5 around for South Ferry service instead of running it to Brooklyn or Bowling Green.
Why would the 2-3 trains have a problem after service is re-opened to lower Manhattan -- they turn off West Broadway at Park Place, two blocks north of the WTC.
There is no way to turn around the local on the 7th Ave line at Chambers without delaying the express. In the past they have turned the expresses at Penn Sta and the locals at Chambers to get around this problem.
That's why I mentioned the 1/9 option to Brooklyn as was done with the GOH recently. That would cut the 3 back to just a shuttle between 135th and 148th to give the 1/9 space on the express tracks south of Chambers.
If the No. 5 can operate via the Bowling Green loop that would leave only Cortlandt and Rector out on the the IRT, while if the N/R trains also can't use their Cortlandt and Rector stops, they could operate from Brooklyn via the Nassau Loop as far as Canal Street (hello R-32s and Slant 40s), then the northern section of the N/R could run from Queens south to Canal Street, with a direct transfer between the two sections along the Canal express platform for the Q/W.
Both would be inconviences, but the public would be far more understanding about the problem than with the Manny B switch.
The N/R should just go over the bridge
The 4 should run local to Newlots and the express to flatbush
Running the N/R/Q/W over the bridge would reduce the number of TPH going from Brooklyn to Manhattan and back. Using the Nassau Loop and cutting the M train back for now would allow the regular number of trains per hour for the Fourth Ave./Queens Blvd. and Sea Beach/Astoria service, though it would entail a platform-length walk at Canal for passengers to get from the northern section to the southern section (unless they just said forget it and took the next Q or W that came along on the express platform).
To tell you the truth I can't even think about visiting NYC, at least Manhattan for quite some time.
My trip is still on for next month, although the itinerary may change somewhat.
What about combining N/R with J/M?
Arti
That's possible. The MTA would have to put up service notices about the change -- say J from Jamaica Center to 95th St. via Fourth Ave. local and M from Metropolitan Ave. to Coney Island via Sea Beach (sorry, Fred), since that would be easier than changing the train's route designation in mid-trip. But it would cause less congestion than turning round the J/M at Chambers and the N/R on the center tracks at Bowery, and would still allow for a complete connection between the Upper and Lower sections of the normal N/R lines at Canal.
The eastern BMT canNOT accomidate 75 ft. cars or 600 ft long train sets.
The sets would have to be down sized to 60fters of 480 ft. length.
Think about a "K" from Jamaica or Canarsie to 6th or 8th ave to 168th St.
avid
Has anyone assessed the status of the stations. I would guess that Cortlandt on the N & R is heavily damaged and Cortlandt on the #1 is destroyed as will as the PATH terminal being destroyed.
I heard at work that the Rector and Cortlandt street stations on the 1/9 suffered cave-ins. Also, that they will be rebuilt.
Just want to let you all know that I am alright (physcically at least, mentally I will have to get back to you.)
I could not bring myself to read most of the postings. Even though I was not as close to it as Chris was (I was at Chase Plaza on Nassau Street which is a bit over 2 blocks to the east). I feel just as close as he was. We were watching it on a couple of TV's that are in a large conference room we have (this conference room also serves and a Crisis Command Center for JP Morgan Chase in the downtown area), I happened to be looking out a corner office window with has a direct view to the south Tower and saw it begin to fall. As you can imagine I ran out of that office very quickly. I decided to stay and help man the telephones in our Crisis center until things started catching up with me and I had to leave. This was about 5:30 PM. I had to walk all the walk up to Bway-Lafayette to catch an uptown F to get to midtown so I could make the switch over to the Lex to get home. I got in about 8:15 PM (I am in the NE Bronx).
For whatever it is worth - NYC and all Americans (including those who are visting the US and are not trying to blow us up) will pull thru this with flying colors. It will take a lot of time and somethings are never going to be the same.
As for the Towers and people - they will always be there in our hearts and minds. I would hope that once it is all cleared up down there that a large memorial park be constructed as soon as it practical as no one would ever allow office buildings to be constructed there again.
You'll forgive me as I am starting to get rather emotional. I am going to to go out side for a walk. I will stop in agian later.
To those who have E-mailed me after I did the very first brief posting on the situation (BREAKING NEWS!!). Thank You for your concern and your thoughts.
Allan S. Berlin
Bronx, NY
You've got it. I understand about the emotions; though I wasn't there, my first hearing of the situation was very shocking and almost apocolyptic. I was in my Graphic Arts class at the college and had just finished some research in the lab. As I proceeded to browse online, a lady came up to our professor very frantically and stated that two airplanes had destroyed the WTC and that the Pentagon was also hit, then collapsed into his arms sobbing. It was a quite traumatic feeling for all of us in the room.
It just goes to show how quickly life around us can change. One minute I'm fooling around on the internet looking up old CARToons magazine articles feeling peace of mind and then suddenly all hell breaks loose, enemies attack the nerve system of the free world, and many precious lives are snuffed out by ruthless terrorists. I had my stomach in knots, worrying about what happened to everyone I know in both NY and DC, what would ensue on foreign lands, what would happen to our economy, our freedom, and whether or not we would go into ultimate war. I honestly thought the end of the world was coming.
All of this wrenched at me, and my only salvation was to check in with everyone here to make sure they were alright. It was comforting to hear from everyone on both the board and IM, but I knew that emotions were running high. What's more, some of you were not only right in the middle of it, but trapped where you were. I prayed hard for all of you and it seems that most of my prayers have been answered in a positive manner.
The whole thing got to me so bad that I took a bus ride around town to clear my thoughts. All I could think about at first was everyone at BusTalk and wishing you were all riding on the bus with me. I could just picture it; everyone talking about the day's events, one of you describing the differences in NYC and Roanoke bus routes, some of you making comments about the fact that you were on a Gillig, and so on. My mind went on to other concerns as the day went on, some of which are posted on BusTalk.
All in all, it was a shocking day for all of us. Let's thank God that we got through it all and hope to do the same in the coming days and weeks.
Sincerely,
Fred Donaher
My brother who works for Con Ed was called up for emergency duty to assist with cutting power to #7 WTC which was due to collapse at any moment (he reported for work about an hour before the collapse).
He reported to Farragut Station -- the power facility with the smoke stacks visible on the Brooklyn waterfront and was to help in throwing emergency brakers as the World Trade Center is fed some of it's power from that location. If the electricity had stayed on it would have only fed the fire and made the disaster that much worse.
BMTman
I am a shop steward and this is directed to the employees who were unable to get to work due to the crisis yesterday.
I have contacted TWU with instructions to file a mass grievance (an et al grievance) on behalf of myself and all those who fear for their job due to being ubable to get to their job.
If you would like to have your name added, please readf on:
DO THIS OFF-SITE. DO not post here
Please send your name, title ,pass number, work location and job number and hours plus your RDos to the following e-mail
peggy-darlington@mindspring.com
Use as your subject line: "Grievance- add my name"
God bless the city workers in NYC who are dealing with this tragedy. My prayers are for all the transit employees, and especially the firefighters, paramedics, and police who are literally on the front lines. You all are New York's finest.
If I were Mayor Daley, I'd be loading up busses and trucks right now with every available Chicago emergency and social service worker to go to New York and help with the relief effort.
-- David
Chicago, IL
Don't forget those traffic controllers who think all day to terminate signals and trains, and reopen tracks, switch tracks, and who control the traffic of NYCT for their job too through this tragedy,
I know that the NEC has a big center for this.
So Railfan Pete is OK! You've checked in.
Peggy was referring to TRANSIT employees.
Actually, that'd open a big back door. With flights restarting, it'd leave Chicago with no task force if anything should happen. There have been numerous bomb scares around NYC since. Grand Central, Main Street Flushing.
does any employee know where they are sending paychecks which normally are picked up at Broadway-Nassau(Fuklton on the 2/3/4/5/J/M/Z)
Your best bet is to call your division's payroll office at Livingston Street.
A few -- admittedly premature -- questions?
Does anyone know the status of Cortlandt St on the N/R? on the 1/9?
What about WTC on the E? For the future - will this station be renamed?
It's impossible now to know the status ofPATH at WTC but what are the possiblities for future service?
Well, the PATH tube under the Hudson is intact, and so the part of the tube under WTC is the part in question. Most probably it can be repaired and a new station built. It will cost money, but for an extraordinary event like this the money will be there.
PATH under the WTC has been flooded and all but destroyed due to damage caused by the pancaking of the twin towers. Cortlandt and Rector have extreme damage and I expect will need renovation/rebuild. AT least we will get rid of refrigerator tile at Rector. federal money is already coming and I expect PATH and the subway will get fedreal money to rebuild the damaged/destroyed stations and tunnels.
I think that's a reasonable expectation.
Were any PATH trains left in the WTC ?
I'm trying to imagine how eerie it must be down in the PATH WTC station now.....assuming it's somewhat intact, but totally pitch black and flooded with water. Wouldn't the water flow down into the tunnels under the Hudson, which descend in elevation west of the WTC station?
Yes, and the water would probably pool there.
wayne
I heard a report at work that the power was shut off and people were walked out of the PATH tunnels to NJ.
Presumably there are pumps down there. Questions are capacity and source of power. It would be really useful to avoid flooding the whole tunnel.
As of wednesday morning:
The E trains out of Parsons are being turned at W4 St.
R Service is suspended between Lawrence St and Times Square.
N service is going across the Manhattan Bridge.
1 Service is only from 242 St to Times Square.
In general there is no subway servive south of 14 St. There is BMT service going thru Canal. But I suspect it's running express from Union Square to Dekalb.
My guess is that the Courtlandt, Rector and WTC stations are damaged. Destroyed? I can't say. They will have to be inspected before they can be reopened for service. I understand WTC on PATH is badly damaged. But I doubt if we'll find out for sure before the weekend.
If 'm wrong about any of my observations, Tell Station Command. I'm only repeating what they told me. And last night, I heard only 1 announcement about service.
CHambers IND (A/C) heavy damage as is E platform. Cortlandt(BMT,IRT) and Rector (BMT,IRT)very extreme damage. PATH -all but destroyed from pancaked damage and flooded.
Cortlandt connects to the WTC mall and Park Place connects to the Chambers/WTC complex.
One would venture a guess, that things won't be back to normal anytime soon. I'm so glad I wasn't working yesterday.
BTW, I bid for jobs on the Open Job Sheet, so I hope to be staying uptown, closer to home.
-Stef
Wow ... I guess A/C trains will run via the F to Jay Street for quite a while once power is turned back on.
N / R trains - a whole different story since I don't think there's bridge capacity .... unless the north side construction work is suspended until the damage is repaired to Cortlandt St downtown.
--Mark
They could run N/R service to nassau street from the south and to city hall lower level from the north.
You mean those tunnels aren't destroyed.The IRT, IND and BMT did a fuck of a good job.
I honestly believe that the buildings surrounding the former WTC will be rebuilt. But the land of the former towers IMO will be turned into a memorial park (i.e. The Murrah Building in Oklahoma City). Considering that the land is jointly owned by the states of NY and NJ (not having to purchase the land from a developer), and considering the vast amount of deaths that took place on the property, this may be the action taken by everyone involved. Again, this is only my opinion of the future.
I agree. Many more buildings in the area will probably be demolished due to the extensive damage, and I imagine a new master plan will be developed for lower Manhattan. As you state, there will probably be new buildings to replace the surrounding buildings, but I can't imagine anything other than a national monument and/or war memorial on the site of the former WTC towers.
The sites of the two previous attacks on US soil that this has been compared to, Pearl Harbor and Oklahoma City, both have memorials. And both of those attacks pale in comparison to what happened today.
If it were up to me, I'd probably design two square reflecting pools in the footprints of the former towers, surrounded by a grassy park and possibly a memorial wall with the names of the dead.
-- David
Chicago, IL
"The sites of the two previous attacks on US soil that this has been compared to, Pearl Harbor and Oklahoma City, both have memorials."
But the whole of the Pearl Harbor navy base, Hickham (sp?) Field air base, etc. wasn't turned into a memorial.
No, because the area is vastly larger than the WTC site and because it was an active Naval base that needed to be rebuilt as quickly as possible to help with the war effort. Apples and oranges. However, the USS Arizona memorial stands as a fitting tribute to those who died.
-- David
Chicago, IL
Rebuilding the WTC is vital to the national economy.
No it's not.
Yes, zman, it is.
But first they'll have to do an EIS. I can hear the NIMBYs already, calling for the whole site to be turned into something more useful, like a park. If it wasn't so rectangular, I'm sure they'ld suggest a bike path.
That's a red herring with no credence. NIMBY will not be an issue here.
The area is commercial and hundreds of thousands of jobs, directly or indirectly, are at stake. But this is a free society so you'll hear all kinds of things. The EIS will document the incredible harm done by not having anything at the site. The Build Alternatives are, as a group, a formality. It isn't a question of if, it's a question of how, and how quickly it begins. Hopefully there won't be a lot dickering about that either.
One good thing is that the collapse of the towers meant that, no $$$ and planning needed to be spent to demolish them if they became unsuable. It actually makes reconstruction easier - you clear the site and start relaying a foundation. It won't look the same - different kind of structure etc. That's open to discussion. But the new buildings will hold a lot of people.
Evaluate critically what you read in light of circumstances, and winnow the bullshit from the real stuff. Happily, this is one time we don't have to worry about NIMBY. It's dead and buried in the rubble, where it belongs. Rebuilding at WTC is the stuff of life. It is resuscitation, re-sustenance.
You have a more optimistic view of human nature than I do. I hope you're right, but I think the squabbles over what to build over the new Hudson Terminal will dwarf the arguments over that little project west of Columbus Circle.
BTW, wait until the people involved in the downtown rail access study realize that there is now a new, vacant location for a train station.
Actualy it's only vital to NY's economy.
That's good enough reason to do it. When push comes to shove, we need to think and respond with brain and heart together, not with emotion alone.
My feelings is they will ecventually rebuild,but on one othe sites there willbe a memorial Park, If they do not rebuild,alot of the former tenents will mpove out of state and the city will loose billions more in economy, My feelings is rebuild 3 of the 4 buildings that were destroyed and use the remaining for MemorialPark,
That's one possible solution. The rebuilt buildings will have to be quite large, though.
A set of buildings averaging 75 floors or so could replace the two towers at 110 and other buildings in the 40's. The configuration would be different.
Here's one way: Have the buildings surround a central grassy square, with access to the square from the street provided through one of the buildings atria. It is not the only way, and all of you will no doubt think of other creative ways.
You could just eliminate that one or two small buildings on the N,R side. That would open the courtyard up a lot which would become a park (with the mall PATH station underneith.)
Someone just mentioned to me that another approach would be a "Millenium Dome" type of building complex - large, airy, with nearly the same office space capacity but done in a way to make it tougher to disable, and at the same time, more integrated into the subway system (eg repaired subway stations and PATH included in the complex). Of course the new structure would be more wired (Internet, fiber optic communications, the works) and fully accessible to disabed people (as would the renovated subways). And the Center of the Dome could be a memorial park.
I'm painting a broad picture with this. I think this guy was on to something.
Um, look to London to see how sucessful their dome was.
"Umm" yourself.
The London dome was a contrived structure built for a similarly contrived event....event over, no reason to visit the dome.
There is no reason to think that a dome structure like the one our fellow SubTalkers have proposed wouldn't be a reasonable and appropriate replacement for the WTC. It would have a much more well-defined mission than the London dome.
My two cents...
=Rednoise
(NewQirQ)
Me, wife and son all OK...
I agree that the WTC should be rebuilt. However, there was never any real need for both towers, so one LARGE tower should be built in the place of the two and make it with more steel embedded in stone/concrete and less glass-area so the whole thing would be much more structurally sound overall.
BMTman
And due to the value of the land at the 50,000 lost jobs the WTC site is also incredibly valuable. Put a memorial on part of it, yes, but not rebuilding is not realistic. Some people get this kind of stereotyped idea fixed in their heads regardless of circumstances.
Rebuilding a site does not dishonor anyone per se. It's the way it's done that's crucial, and you guys provided the proof (Arizona Memorial, etc.)
If I die unexpectedly I would want people to continue my work. I wouldn't care if somebody sat at my desk or a new one.
This is a good question though. 50,000 jobs were in those buildings. They will have to go somewhere and i would imagine that once things are cleaned up NYC will fight hard to keep the jobs from going to NJ or some other area with lots of room for growth. I agree with the redevelopment plan.
Hooray! I like your post.
Redevelopment done with compassion, and sensitivity, is in order.
I think it goes without saying that some sort of memorial will be built on the WTC site. But I also believe that a large skyscraper must also be built once again on the site. This is not simply a NYC issue – WTC is now an American symbol. Rebuilding one or both towers will send a powerful message to both friend and foe that the United States will be an even stronger country after having lived through this tragedy.
For what it’s worth, I would consider building a cluster of smaller towers on the site with a single large tower, which would be over 1,500 feet tall, thus once again claiming the title of ‘World’s Tallest Building’.
Jim D.
I think they should build the my World Trade Finger.
You know that kind of response is truely unwarranted in times like this. Be for real, please!
Regards,
Trevor Logan
In case you forgot, there is still a naval base at Pearl Harbour, only a small part of the site is a memorial. Only a part of the WTC complex need become a memorial. The rest can host the worlds tallest buildings.
On a brighter note, next year September 11 will be either a federal or state holiday.
Yeah, that's good for us, but not for all the people that won't be around to enjoy it.
Call it 9(Sept)11(Eleventh) Day especially for all those rescue workers who have died
Woah, I just noticed that.
Our lives will be changed for as long as we live. The New York (Manhattan) Skyline is totally changed.
I only went to the observation deck there thrice or four times. Now whenever I look at a Manhattan landscape from a map or my poster of a green "ERIE" locomotive train #849 with the nighttime WTC and landscape in the area, I feel sad and horrified. The WTC doesn't exist anymore.
All we know is that the Lord had let it happen, and He has a reason for it to happen, whether it be known to human or not.
The psychological effect of those towers being gone is tremendous. Smith/9th Sts? NEC? The Brooklyn Bridge.
It doesn't even look like New York anymore.
It's a scar on multiple levels.
I Play Sim City 3000/3000 Unlimted and as Landmarks Both Tower 1 And Tower 2 are offered as well as an offical map of Manhattan South Of Central Park as a city (The Landmarks Come With the Game, The City Map Is Available at www.simcity.com). I May Place these In My Current City (For the Last Time) and Sign It As "World Trade Center Memorial Park"
One day after the tragedy, the stories start to get really personal. Parents of kids who never came home from work last nite, for that matter parents who will never come home again, people who will not get a proper burial. Heartbreaking interviews and phone calls to NY1 & Fox5 from desperate and heartbroken people describing and holding up pictures of loved ones who they are looking for and family phone numbers to call. Hoping and praying for a miracle. A phone call which Mrs. Bill from Maspeth received describing the trauma of a neighborhood student of Stuyvesant H. S. who absolutely needs psychological counseling. They were dismissed from school after the first plane crashed. He and his friends saw the second plane fly right into the other tower. As the windows were blown out 70/80/90 floors up, with the office workers seen on ledges with smoke coming out from behind them, some on fire in desperation crying for help. Then the horror of watching them falling to their deaths below. Hug the person/people you love tonite, thanks be to God you will be able to! It hurt for me to say that I had an easy day on the M line yesterday. All day shuttles to Bway Myrtle and not too many trips at that since there were lots of crews to be utilized. Looks like the same thing for today. But hanging around, listening to the radio and watching TV in the crew room reinforces the fact that this is not a normal day. We'll be back to normal soon, yet the families and friends of the deceased will have to find a "new normal" once the reality sets in. May the grace God give all the survivors the strength to heal.
Absolutely.
I had to worry myself yesterday since my wife was working in the area at the time. Not being able to contact her (I had the day off) for a couple of hours was just the absolutely most nervewracking point of my entire life. Finally after 2 1/2 hours, she called me. I was still nervous about her safety until she got home (6 hours later, and after walking about 70 blocks).
I went through the same experience trying to track down my brother, who subseqently had to track down the rest of his classmates at the High School of Economics and Finance.
I hope that all the other families have luck in finding loved ones. And R.I.P for those who never made it out from Towers 1 & 2.
I just found out that the servers for this site have been running on diesel generator power for over 15 hours. They are figuring they have enough fuel for 24 hours uptime so we're looking at 9 more hours until it goes down, more or less. After that it's unclear when it will be back since it depends on power being restored and access being granted to the (physical) site.
If and when this site goes down, I invite everybody over to the Urban Transit Forum on my Nth Ward site. It uses the same script as SubTalk, and unlike Yahoo, there is no sign-in process required and no annoying banner ads.
Thanks to Dave for providing such an excellent website and this forum. I think this site has served as a ray of light in the smoke and darkness. Here's hoping you'll be back online soon.
If you have no objections, I'll put the beautiful Memorium photo on my site this evening so that it will remain on the web until nycsubway.org is back up.
If you want to transfer any other files over to my site as an interim measure, let me know and I'll be happy to oblige. However, I won't have FTP access until I get home from work around 6:00 PM Chicago time.
-- David
Chicago, IL
Thanks, help yourself to the photo. There's probably not much point in doing much to set up an interim "site" elsewhere since I'd have to make DNS changes and both my DNS servers are at the same colo site (which will change after this week!)
No problem. I assume this whole website is backed up on your computer at home?
-- David
Chicago, IL
Yes it is... but unlike the computers in Star Trek, these shouldn't go belly up just due to a power loss :-)
True, but I was just thinking of a worst-case scenario where the servers wouldn't be back up or physically accessible for an extended period, or if the building they're in sustains any further damage. (I don't know how close the building actually is to Ground Zero.)
Hell, if this were Star Trek, I would have asked Scottie to beam me off this planet hours ago.
-- David
Chicago, IL
Oh, I doubt 25 Broadway has any physical damage. But as it turns out not only are my web servers there, so is the DSL line provider's equipment! So the "home" copy of the site will be unavailable too!
<>
Dave, I second that statement.
-Jeremy
I guess the physical site is in lower Manhattan. Hopefully the building it is in is safe.
I have a good board located at my website too The Other Side Of The Tracks: A Website Devoted To The New York City Subway. It is a fully functional message board which you do not have to register for as well- many subtalkers congregate there already.
Click Here to go to it: www.nycrail.com Message Board
-Harry
I have a good board located at my website too The Other Side Of The Tracks: A Website Devoted To The New York City Subway. It is a fully functional message board which you do not have to register for as well- many subtalkers congregate there already.
Click Here to go to it: www.nycrail.com Message Board
-Harry
If you get some Jerry Cans and hoof it to the nearest gas station for some more diesel I'll be glad to chip in.
SPECIAL SUBTALK LIVE
WHEN AND IF NYCSUBWAY.ORG GOES DOWN UNTIL IT RETURNSIn the event SubTalk, BusTalk, and/or the whole www.nycsubway.org website go down when the power generators run out of fuel, SubTalk Live will be open until the power is restored. Based on David Pirmann's posts, this should be around 9 PM Eastern, tonight. Please note, whenever SubTalk or BusTalk goes down, SubTalk Live is open and an operator will arrive as soon as possible.
As in any Internet forum or chatroom, certain polices and rules need to be created and enforced. SubTalk Live is no exception. The following policies are in effect at all times in the chatroom or when making posts on SubTalk and BusTalk pertaining to the chat:
1. ANY public transit related topic can be discussed (bus, subway, or railroad).
2. It is requested that you use your handle as your chat nickname.
3. OPs will be the sole people in the chat to deem a topic off subject and are the only people who can make announcements on SubTalk and BusTalk pertaining to the opening, closing, delay, cancellation, postponement, software, server, or technical difficulties with the chat. When in doubt over what you are about to do, don't do it! If you have a problem with any of the above issues, e-mail an operator. Please do not post on SubTalk or BusTalk! This also applies to responding to this message. Do not respond to this message unless you are posting a question relevant to SubTalk Live. Do not post announcements pertaining to the chat.
4. Anyone who disrupts the chat in any way (scrolling, profanity, obscene remarks, constant chatting off-topic, or any of the above) will be punted and/or banned from SubTalk Live with or without warning.
If an operator is not in attendance (remember this is an unscheduled chat) and you have a concern, please e-mail one of the following addresses:
wmatagmoagh@subtalklive.com
boarshevik@subtalklive.com
If you have AOL or AIM, you can instant message
Orentree
WMATAGMOAGH
BOARshevik
ARE YOU READY TO SUBTALK LIVE???
Just go to http://www.subtalklive.com and join in! mIRC users, do your thing!NOTE
It is strongly reccomended you enter the room and troubleshoot BEFORE tonight! If you encounter problems, e-mail an operator, do not post on SubTalk/BusTalk!WE LOOK FORWARD TO SEEING YOU!
PLEASE DO NOT RESPOND TO THIS POST
For an explanation of this request, see the chat policies.
I have still not seen any post from the following regulars,
American Pig
hyepaul
railfan pete
boston T party.
ARe there any other subtalker still missing
I believe Pig goes to (or went to) Stuyvesant HS. He may still be volunteering on the scene.
-Hank
I don't have to deal with American Bacon.
This Message was never posted.
American Pig has been around. In fact, he's online as I type this. No idea about heypaul or Railfan Pete. Boston T Party lives in Boston.
Kevin Walsh sent me an e-mail shortly after the attack letting me know he's okay.
However, we haven't heard from FDNY since this happened. There's also a NYC cop on the board who I don't think we've heard from. I forget his name offhand, but for I while I was always confusing him with Peter Rosa.
There may also be others who are missing. I think we all feel very helpless right now... The only things we can do are to donate blood and continue praying.
-- David
Chicago, IL
I think FDNY got killed in that HORRIBLE Collapse of the WTC.
Why do you think so? please give us your reasons.
Because I THINK he works for
Fire
Department
New
York
But Im not shure
He could just be fighting the fire or providing other assistance.
He does, but he doesn't work out of Manhattan, IIRC, so I presume that he's OK.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
The Broad Channel Fire department sent some people over to help. You never know.
"The Broad Channel Fire department sent some people over to help. You never know. "
Yes, but they would have not gotten there before the collapse, and would not have been the ones to go in in the first place.
What was awesome to me was that row of dusty ambulances sitting there with thier back doors open. We all know *where* their crews went. And the first thing we, as EMTs must ask ourselves is: "Is the scene safe."
We are not *supposed* to go into burning buildings until the scene is secured. But then, I would never hav dreamed that those buildings would have come down. I'd have gone in.
Elias
FDNY lives upstate!!!!
Regards,
Trevor Logan
www.transitalk.com
Jeffrey Rosen, I think. I'm not sure if he's been the board of late.
--Mark
FDNY (Steve) has posted in BusTalk since the collapses.
That's good news. Thanks.
-- David
Chicago, IL
You are referring to Sergeant Rosen, NYPD. I don't know what's going on. News reports said a lot of sergeants at the scene escaped injury. Was he there?
There's also a NYC cop on the board who I don't think we've heard from. I forget his name offhand, but for I while I was always confusing him with Peter Rosa.
Jeffrey Rosen. He doesn't post much anymore.
However, we haven't heard from FDNY since this happened.
Steve "FDNY" Lowenthal (I think that's his last name) stopped by the BusTalk site earlier today. Sadly, quite a few of his brothers and sisters passed away or are missing.
Please keep our heroic civil servants (NYPD, FDNY, EMTs, etc) in your thoughts tonight.
Q46 NovaRTS has not posted a message yet.
I here. I was trying to post something from my school computer yesterday afternoon and I was stuck in my school in New Rochelle until 5:30 PM b/c they where waiting for the Whitestone Bridge to reopen to get me and other students in the school to get to Queens and points south.
Lets all take a moment of Silence for
American Pig
Railfan Pete
Boston T Party
Hyepaul
And lets pray for those who are going to help with the rescue efforts.
Oh please. None of them probably had any reason to be anywhere near the WTC based on their ages and occupations.
I could also supply you a list of over 1,200 registered subtalk handles that haven't posted in the last 24 hours. Lets not go down that road.
You can put me off the "haven't posted" list.
Wado, occasional subtalker
PS. It smells like burning plastic in East Village. Could be the dust
It smelled like burning plastic all over Manhattan last night.
I wouldn't pooh-pooh it so fast. These are people who post regularly.
-Hank
Boston T Party lives and works in Boston. Today is his day off from the MBTA. He's probably at the Seashore Trolley Museum as usual; but if I talk to him I'll let him know of your concern.
Train Dude is ok. I have not heard from pelham Bay Dave or Mr. Mabstoa
PBD Jr. has posted that Sr. is fine.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Thanks for asking PBD Sr is doing fine. I last spoke with him at about 1PM today.
He said he was doing fine and couldn't believe what happened. He is stuck in the city and ofcause I'm stuck outside the city. Hopefully things will be better tomorrow.
Has anyone heard from SubBus
Im ok. It was my day off yesterday. My family members that workedthere as well are ok.
RIP to the victims of ths horrible act of violence.
Good to hear you and your family are ok.
We haven't heard from you in a few days and were getting cold knuckles...
Take care,
BMTman
Thanks, The family is fine just like everyone else alittle is shock. When I first heard of it my mom woke me up from a nice sleep telling me the WTC was on fire. Then I said Whatever but when she said one tower is down I ran to the T.V and in time to see the second fall. Like most my reaction was "Oh my god".
It nice to hear your you also BMTman I hope your family is doing well.
The word on the street is that I am alive and well...
Thanks to all concerned... I hope everyone here is safe...
It's hard to fathom the tragedy that yesterday's destruction will bring into the lives of the family and children of the people who died... may God give strength to those who suffered loss and injury and protect all of us, especially the brave emergency workers conducting the rescue...
I suspect our lives will never be the same ...
You're probably right.
bogus, you are using capitals....
avid
oops... heypaul is alive, well, and worried...
How about Ron from Bayside???
He's been posting.
Arti
How about Larry Littlefield? I know he works for the city but I have no idea where.
-- David
Chicago, IL
IIRC he has posted. There have been so many messages its hard to keep track.
Piglet has been on AIM so he's ok.
I heard from Steve (FDNY). He is safe and unhurt.
T party checking in. RDO's are Thurs/ Fri this pick. The quietest Wed night I've ever seen on the T. I found out today that a girl I hung out with in high school was on one of the Boston planes. Haven't thought of her in over 30 years, but today, my thoughts and prayers went out to her family. I think we're all going to be "touched" by this tragedy.
As I write this, I'm listening to the news. The investigators have a direct link to Bin Laden. Let's get him and his associates.... and any that would emulate him. Remember the Twin Towers!
Thanks for thinking of me Dand.
How are Doug (BMTman), Thurston, Ripta42HopeTunnel, Harry (HighStreet), and LouFromBrooklyn?
Lou Levinson (LouFromBrooklyn) has not been heard from. All the others you list have posted here since the disaster.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Drilling for oil in Alaska must start ASAP. We cannot start a war against Arabs unless we have our own oil supply afar they cut our off.
Let's not forget our ally Norway, and Russia.
Arti
President Foxx in Mexico wants more open concessions on Immigration for the Illeagle Mexicans. Well,how about more oil concessions from Mexico?
Pemex is having financial difficulties (a neat trick considering the oil and gas price spikes in the past 18 months), and Fox might be willing to privatize at least part of the thing, except that to many Mexicans having a state-run oil company for the past 70 years makes it as sacrosinct as rent control in New York and they don't want any foreigners touching their oil industry.
No oilfor the US no changes in Immigration, and more deportations, build barbed wire and electric 20 yards from Border. If you ever go San Diego,gotothe border, cross over to Mexico,look up at the hills around 20 minutes before sunset,and see the crowds that want to cross over.If Mexico screams,too bad,we are now at war,Tell them to look at their Southern Border which is barbed wired and the border patrol shoots those crossing up from the South
Some subtalkers are being driven away by ludicrous posts such as this and the ones from two Neanderthals calling for genocide against Palestinians. (I'm not referring to Chris, who was in a state of shock and added a disclaimer). There may have been others, but I was too sick to keep reading last night after watching the tragedy unfold and then reading calls to genocide.
I'm not checking the board anywhere as often as I used to. I can understand people being enraged but more than just a little of what's being written here is just rediculous, especially some of the material concerning genocide or the deployment of atomic weapons.
I will allow myself to say this before withdrawing: Obtaining revenge through the use of genocide and/or nuclear weapons might satisfy a strong desire for revenge but at the same time would very likely would serve as provocation for future terrorist attacks against the United States.
-Robert King
I doubt we will go nuclear on anyone over this, but the U.S. does need to identify its enemy, target it the country he is in and if that country refuses to give him up, attack with massive retaliation at all possible mountain hideout sites and at the heart of that nation's capital. And it has to come fast, while the images are still fresh in the world's eyes and the bodies are still being recovered, so that none of this "moral equivalency" crap has time to bubble to the surface among people who are inclined to believe the U.S. is wrong most of the time anyway.
Are you saying, "Long live the race war"?
Don't be an idiot.
Seth
Just read this on the NY Times in a larger article on some people recovered alive from the WTC rubble.
The mayor also held up pictures of the flight recorders, or black boxes, that were aboard the two planes that crashed into the twin towers. He said copies would be circulated to all rescue and emergency workers, with the hope that the boxes could be recovered and the information they are thought to contain put to use.
Let's hope they go a long way to determine who did this. And let's pray that many more survivors can be found alive, too.
--Mark
Gotta clarify that. They want the personnel to know what they're looking for. Those weren't photos of the actual boxes.
-Hank
My bad ... misunderstood the article.
--Mark
In case some of you weren't aware, the TA has imposed the following for at least today, and probably many more days or weeks:
Right now:
1: 242nd to 34th
2: 241st to 34th
3: 148th to 135th
4: Normal except no stops either way from 14th to Boro Hall
5: Same as 4
6: Short-turned at Blecker/Spring instead of Bklyn Br
7: Normal
9: Out of service or being shorturned at 34th with 1 and 2?
A: Normal except runs on F between W4 and Jay
B: Normal
C: Out of service
D: Normal
E: Normal except Local in Queens and Exp from 42nd to W4th, W 4th is the last stop
F: Normal
G: Normal {of course}
J: One stop in Manhattan only, Essex St
L: Normal
M: Metropolitan-Myrtle shuttle only
N: 2 routes: Ditmars to 34th and Court to Stillwell
Q: Lcl AND exp normal
R: Court-95 only
S: All okay
Z: Out of service or being short-turned at Essex with J?
You forgot: W: Normal
A: Presumably local from 59th to W4th. Would explain why the E must go express and of course this is the only way to get the A to the F.
The Q and W are making local stops in Manhattan, for obvious reasons. Prince and Canal are bypassed. I've never seen Canal so empty, not even when there was no service since there were invariably a few confused people waiting there anyway.
If you need a Queens-bound N at 34th, be forewarned that they seem to be picking up passengers on the southbound platform (i.e., no relay). (There are starting lights there! I wonder why; I can't recall the last time that station was used as a terminal.)
About an hour ago I got off a W at Pacific and attempted to transfer to a 4/5 back to Manhattan but a cop informed me that a station had collapsed (he didn't know which) so only the Q and W were running to Manhattan. The ride over the bridge is just chilling.
I saw an E on the local track at Broadway-Lafayette (southbound). I don't know where it was headed. I think passengers were on board but it may have been light.
Most A trains are running via the F, but I was on a Rockaway Park-bound train around 5pm (from 59th to Jay) and we ran express on 8th via Cranberry. We bypassed Canal, Chambers, and Broadway-Nassau; we stopped at High, where passengers were waiting for trains in both directions (I didn't see any Manhattan-bound trains, though). The platform at Chambers was wet but otherwise the station appeared intact. I didn't see the WTC platform; the lights may have been off. The lights were off at B-N and in the tunnel (until a bit past the first signal south of B-N, which was lit).
Incidentally, this A train (lead car 5456, or maybe it was 5654) had a clear view into the cab through the little circular window -- no fuzz. I didn't realize the R-44's were getting door enablers, but now I know what they look like. Oh, and a trainset of R-32's was running on the G.
Maybe it was from Liberty plaza, knocking out the IRT 4/5 to Boro Hall
from NJT's site: 30-45 minute delasys on Northeast Corridor, North Jersey Coast and Rarirtan valley due to police action at Nnewark Penn. The site did not specify what the action is-- ie pickpocket, tresspasser injury, etc.Let's hopew it is not a terrorist activity.
In a time of tradgedy like this, it is not easy to think about the physical devastation. Rather, my mind keeps focussing on the profound loss of life and countless tragic stories.
The purpose of this post is not to deal with the collateral, but instead, share an interesting and emotional update. I just got word from a contractor that all construction equipment on NYCDOT and PANYNJ jobs is being taken off the job to aide in the search, rescue, and cleanup effort. He said they have already pulled it off the Verranzano, and will likely pull it off the VanWyck as well. They are not even waiting for enough flatbed trucks to take the cranes in, as they are often driving them over surface roads. The contractor's deadlines are being waived untill further notice. Wish them well,
MATT-2AV
No doubt. Priority One is to clean up the WTC site and restore existing services. Once that is nearly complete, reconstruction can begin as another stage; at that point crews can go back to what they were doing originally.
I seem to have the exact opposite problem: I want to focus on the loss of life, but keep thinking about the physical devastation. Well, at least that's how I felt after I found out Chris was ok.
From WJAR 10 (NBC-Providence), http://www.turnto10.com/img/wtc/amtrack.htm
----------------------------------------
Amtrak train stopped in Providence; link to attacks unknown
PROVIDENCE, September 12 -- Authorities have stopped an Amtrak train in Providence. News Channel 10 reports that there may be a suspect or suspects on board who eluded authorities in Boston in the terrorist attack investigation.
The streets near the train station have been cordoned off. The terminal was evacuated around 2 p.m.
It's not immediately known where the train was headed. There is not yet official confirmation on why the train was stopped.
The Boston.com website is reporting that three people were detained by authorities. Supposedly they were wanted by authorities, but eluded capture in Boston.
Jim D.
I just saw one of the guys on CNN. He was 100% Arab, complete with the long beard, and sheets covering his head and body.
Why do we let these people into this country? We know how they feel about us, and what they're capable of, and yet they live(and now kill) among us.
Hopefully, these attacks will bring much needed change to US Immigration policy.
Not all Arabs are bad. It's only the %1 that make it into the news that we hate.
That said: An idea I briefly toyed with for retaliation would be to destroy all arab nations and claim the land in our name. We won't have to worry about making enemies with the country that provides us oil. But then I figured that would be a bit much.
You want to know something surprising about what you just said: The US and W. Europe is already in the process of doing that, and has done so for the last century (only very slowly). Only that's been left out of the books that our dsyfunctional school system.
Thank goodness we live in a country where if you don't like it, you're free to leave any time.
A century ago, there were no Arab nations. The Arabs were conquered by the Ottomans 5 centuries ago, give or take a few years. When the Ottomans were defeated in WWI, the winners divided the spoils, drew lines on maps, thereby creating the Arab nations. It took decades of internal debate for the Arabs to decide among themselves whether they were one nation in many states or many nations. I'm not sure they're done with that argument, although just about every political merger that's been attempted in that area has unraveled.
It's a little to fast to discuss this maybe, but after this I know that the MTA will rename their stops, and give it new names, like Worth Street or West Street- Battery Park City.
The MTA is defintly gonna look at things at a new light, and make newer precautions.
So what will the MTA do when it comes to Renaming them?
I also wonder what's going to happen to the PATH STATION at the WTC..some old trains have the WTC sign on them and that might not be the same after what went down.
I wonder what's left of the WTC station, PATH was going to rebuilt station.
Luke
Just for kicks---why should we rename them---who's to say that this is only a setback---This is NEW YORK---The WORLD TRADE CENTER WILL BE REBUILT!!!!!!---In its past form---who knows
To rebuild another twin, I say it will take another least 40 - 50 years or more to complete it. Depend how much work is being done per days.
it could be rebuilt in 2 years
Maybe not two years, since the design work would have to eliminate as many of the flaws in the original WTC as possible. But if a new building does go on that site, it will go up much faster and with fewer hassles than any other building in New York because of its now-historical significance.
Patriotism in this case would trump all of New York's traditional construction flaws, IMHO.
Did you say TRUMP?
I kinda had a feeling someone would make the connection there -- not that it was intended when I typed it out, but after looking at it for a second and realizing the connotation, I said "What the hell, post it anyway..."
more like 2 toclean upand 6-8 years torebuild, depending how tall they will be be
Why doyou say 40-50 years to rebuild
WORLD TRADE CENTER WILL BE REBUILT
I doubt it. Even if we don't fear an additional terrorist threat, I think people wouldn't want to rent in a "haunted" structure. I'm thinking that there may be no new starts on super-tall skyscrapers for years or decades.
At any rate, I'm sure they wouldn't rebuild it in the same way, with load bearing walls. You can't build a structure that tall without at least considering the possibility of an ACCIDENTAL airplane hit. The structure failed that test.
Keep the load bearing walls but also include center columns. THe new buildings should at least resemble the original. Lower Manhattan's skyline has been raped.
Good place for new stadiums to be built,but I doubt it
Both the WTC towers already had center columns and a concrete elevator core. Like I said in another post, I seriously doubt there's any practical way to build something to withstand that sort of damage without making it into a concrete bunker.
-- David
Chicago, IL
I knew about the elevator core, but the PA's own website about the towers took pride in the fact that there were no center columns in the section on renting office space. Maybe I misread, I doubt that part of the site is still there.
The structure didn't fail. NO building is built to take a DIRECT hit from a speeding jumbo jet. Steel weakens at a certain temp. so any building that happens to have a plane filled with fuel burning inside of it is going to collapse.
Thank God that it collapsed the way it was supposed to and did not fall over sideways and cause damage that would make the present damage seem like a car wreck.
I don't know how hard it will be for construction workers to transport supplies and such to construct the new twin towers, basically the same size and shape as the old ones.
Also they have to work through narrow streets and many tall buildings standing right next to the former WTC towers.
But no matter what, twin towers or no twin towers, the 1963's design of the WTC still stands as a historical memory in photos and in our memories, and it will never be replaced.
I am missing the WTC already.
As for the SubTalk roll call, I am still alive! Thank God. I was in school at the time, and I didn't know it until my Spanish teacher informed me about it around 10:45a.
Seeing the videos on the News was good enough for me. I must have been mesmerized if I ever did see it LIVE right in front of the buildings.
Some of my classmates' parents worked in NYC, and my teacher informed them that Manhattan is sealed off from Queens, Bronx, Brooklyn, and New Jersey. Also the border between Mexico is sealed off.
No cars, no buses, no planes, no trains, no phones. Nothing, as of yesterday.
I watched the news all day yesterday, and I want to know what happened to the students at Bronx Science High School. I have some friends there, and the trains weren't running, so I wonder if they were stuck in school for a few more hours.
As for this posting, I really wish I knew what those stations would be renamed to. No more World Trade Center. Sniff.Sniff. : (
Also, PATH's PA-2,3, and 4 cars have the "WTC" indicator light on their trains. I wonder what will happen to them too.
Is PATH running today? It was shut down yesterday, and I want to know if the WTC BUILDING for the PATH train is open too. Was that affected?
At some strength of degree, I was shocked and horrified by the towers collapsing, also building #7 which has been burning with uncontrollable fire for 7 hours before it collapsed. While I was studying, my brain shifted and thought it was all a dream, but it wasn't. It was real. I might (very little chance) visit the area on Sunday to observe, but I am definitely not sure of it.
Also, something fired at Kabul, Afghanistan. Officials confirmed late last night it was NOT the comeback of America's attacks. They discuss the civil war that Afghanistan is going through, and get its evidence from there.
It would be a shame to rename the subway and PATH stations. World Trade Center has stood has the world's financial and business center since Nov. 22, 1963. I personally think that no other street name would match up to the grandeur name of WORLD TRADE CENTER. I am full of sorrow, and grief.
Only if the fire department can recover the "black boxes" from the airplanes in the rubble soon, then we can get all the evidence we can get from there.
: (
Railfan Pete.
<< World Trade Center has stood has the world's financial and business center since Nov. 22, 1963. >>
It wasn't built until 1966 (completed in 1970).
Is PATH running today? It was shut down yesterday, and I want to know if the WTC BUILDING for the PATH train is open too. Was that affected?
See the thread entitled "Transit update- Fox 5 TV". Apparently Fox said the Path station was completely destroyed.
David
DESTROYED!!!!! OHHHHH, NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO.
I WANT TO BEAT THOSE ****** DOWN TO ****!!!! fOR THIS!!!!!!!
Just as the president has noted, WHO would do such a COWARDLY thing?
WHO ON THE FACE OF THIS TEMPORAL EARTH?
//: (
According to the news {I forget which channel} on Wed it was:
Newark-33rd
Hoboken-33rd
That's it.
. . .and Journal Square to Hoboken.
Some Black Boxes have been recovered already! And a few leads they have are going well, so the investigation part is well underway!
Trevor
I would think that it will revert to just plain "CHAMBERS STREET".
wayne
I think that might be changed, maybe it can be seen as too cold of a Name for a street, sad to say. Hearing the word chambers would not be polite to hear Downtown right next to a site of a horrendous act. Maybe it's me
Well, Chambers is only associated with the WTC because of the double-length of the IND platform there -- the street itself is really further away from the site than the allegedly-damaged Rector Street stop is. And while calling it Hudson Terminal would be no problem to transit buffs and NYC old-timers, it would confuse too many people who can't figure out what the IRT, BMT and IND stand for (and especially the ones who describe their subway line by color instead of number or letter).
If service is resumed any time soon on the IND, they probably will just keep the Chambers Street name. The IRT 1/9 stop may become Vescey Street, since that's going to be the only possible entrance open for a while, while the N/R will probably keep its Cortlandt Street name, with a later name to be added onto all three stops depending on what goes up or on the site's location.
They might keep World Trade Center as a sort of act of defiance.
But my guess is that they'll use Battery Park City or resume using Hudson Terminal.
Unless of course they give the area a commemorative name like Memorial Plaza.
Isn't WTC about 7 buildings (now 4)? The Center still exists, even without the Twin Towers. Keep the name and build replacement office space.
They should keep renaming those stations
Cortland St WTC
Park Pace WTC
Chambers St WTC
World Trade Center.Not Battery park city,Not Hudson Terminal,Not Memorial park but The World Trade Center.If the name of that station is changed,then Why not change the name of this city.If were going to change the name of that station then why not change the name of this state.If were going to change the name of this Country!
If were going to change the name of the station then why not change the name of this country
From today's Washington Post:
Destroy the Network
I agree wholeheartedly. He's able to express my sentiments much better than I am able to do here.
-- David
Chicago, IL
Another good column in today's Washington Post.
To war, not to court by Charles Krauthammer
-- David
Chicago, IL
Right David, thoughtful remarks aimed at a solution vs. a responce.
Mr t__:-(
Some of us here know these folks. Of the four announced by the mayor on TV, these have been officially confirmed by the fire department.
FDNY has transmitted 5-5-5-5 for the LODD of Chief of Department Peter J. Ganci, Jr. from injuries sustained at Manhattan box 8087 transmitted at 0906 hours Sept. 11, 2001.
FDNY has transmitted 5-5-5-5 for the LODD of First Deputy Commisioner
William M. Feehan, Spet 11 2001 from injuries sustained at Manhattan box 8087 transmitted at 0906 hours Sept. 11, 2001.
Signed Thomas Von Essen, Fire Commisioner; Daniel A. Nigro, Acting Chief of Department.
-Hank
FDNY has transmitted 5-5-5-5 for the LODD of Dept. Chaplin Fr. Michael Judge Sept 11 2001 from injuries sustained at Manhattan box 8087 transmitted at 0906 hours Sept. 11, 2001.
Signed Thomas Von Essen, Fire Commisioner; Daniel A. Nigro, Acting Chief of Department. (1626hrs 9/12/01)
-Hank
Thank God. Im Ok. Ive been home since 1 PM yesterday afternoon. we were evacuated at 10 30 yesterday morning. We had an office at 1 WTC. Id rather not mention the floor #. Thank God I was working in midtown. WHAT AN AWFUL HORROR THIS HAS BEEN. My condolences goes out to every 1.
Where are they they both now live in New York yet I have not seen either one.
Hilary was on television this morning.
I heard on the news last night Bill is in Australia (I have no idea why). He said something about America supporting its leader after the attack.
Senator Hillary Clinton has made public statements. I heard her on a call-in on WOR radio and she also made some statements in the Senate.
Bill Clinton has had brief statements reported in the support of The President. It would be inappropriate for him to have a high profile at this time.
Once the debris is cleared and the rescue/recovery
operations are completed, what will be the future
of the site of the World Trade Center? Will there be
a new World Trade Center? Will the lower Manhattan
skyline be dominated by a new "Twin Towers" several
years down the road? What will happen next? Will they
most likely construct a memorial where the Twin Towers
once stood, similar to what was done in Oklahoma City?
I feel they should build a new Twin Towers, since they
were pretty much a symbol of the Lower Manhattan skyline.
It's just that New York City will never look the same
without the dominating 110 story twin towers of the
World Trade Center.
The twin towers replaced twin towers. Maybe they could rebuild a conventional shorter twin towers like the original Hudson Terminal.
I agree. We have been hearing that after yesterday, many facets of our lives will be changed forever. That probable involves high skyscrapers. I would not be suprised if new zoning laws come in to prohibit the construction of buildings beyond 40 to 50 stories. Of course, they could have just as easily crashed the plane into smaller buildings at ground level just as easily. That might have been worse as gas and electrical lines and subways would have gone up at the same time.
The Pentagon is only 6 stories, which didn't stop the terrorism.
Exactly. We are not safe anywhere anymore
Also the 93 bombing only affected the lower floors. 50 stories collapsing is just as deadly as 110.
But you've got a better chance of escaping a smaller building and effectively fighting a fire in one.
The NY Fire Department spokesperson said on Tuesday that a fire above the 10th floor is a problem. The Pentagon fire didn't get put out till Wed, with only six stories.
The Pentagon building is a special case. Its construction made containing and fighting the fire difficult.
Isn't The Pentagon a stone or at least a solid concrete structure? It is certainly not a new design. I guess the concentric "pentagons" made the firefighting efforts somewhat problematic.
wayne
Along with the extensive atic space, and ducts which spread the fire.
If a 757 rammed the Empire State Building, would it have collapsed ?
My gut feeling is no.
It would have collapsed and taken most of midtown with it
The structure above the impact point most likely would have sheared off and fallen on the surronding area. No it probably wouldn't have collapsed, but with the tapered structure demanded by that type of support, the damage below would have been much greater, with the sheared off portion poosibly causing as much if not more damage.
I heard on one of the stations that the architecture of the Empire State could have taken the airplane plow and *probably* would have survived. Can't test it out unless you try it, but I'll take their guess.
=)
The ESB is made of bircks and stones, easily shattered by the impact of as much massive energy as that jet. I agree, above the impact would have been pulverized, but below the impact would have remained standing.
But one doesn't build that way any more, it is far too costly.
Elias
Remember, there was a B-29 or something that actually did crash into The Empire State a long time ago (in foggy conditions) and the building is still standing today. The main difference between the WTC and The Empire State, is that WTC was externally made of steel etc... where as the Empire State is made of concrete etc...
Could the empire state collapse? yes, but I think it would be standing longer than the WTC did, and it would allow more people to get out.
I think the collapse of the WTC towers might not have happened or taken longer if the towers were built wider. The two 110 storey towers weren't that wide. With less building to go through, the plane easily damaged the supports. But on the other hand, the collapse pancaked straight down, if the towers toppled sideways there would've probably been a much larger "Ground Zero" and more deaths.
I can say this about having the Towers rise again: such towers are monuments to ego, and do not make economic sense. The cost increases with height, yet you have smaller floor plates and more unusable floor area (elevators, service shafts) to usable floor area.
The economic solution is four wider forty story towers (like those in Battery Park City), one at each corner of the site, with perhaps a two story retain arcade around the entire perimeter and a courtyard in the middle.
If the towers are rebuilt, it will be for symbolic reasons. But who would want to occupy them? Small businesses couldn't afford it, unless the subsidies are deep. Big companies would want the big floorplates, which are in short supply in NYC.
The cost increases with height, yet you have smaller floor plates and more unusable floor area (elevators, service shafts) to usable floor area.
The number of elevators on the higher floors is less.
What about 2-level elevators or elevators that are like subway trains?
think the collapse of the WTC towers might not have happened or taken longer if the towers were built wider.
So? They would have just crashed two planes into one tower.
Remember, there was a B-29 or something that actually did crash into The Empire State a long time ago (in foggy conditions) and the building is still standing today.
This is the most ridiculous part of the WTC vs. ESB argument.
A B-25 is many times smaller than a Boeing 767, and gasoline is much less flammable than kerosene. In addition, the B-25 had almost no fuel, whereas the two 767s were fueled for a cross-country flight.
CORRECTION. Gasoline is much MORE volatile than kerosene. It's just that a 767 carries so much more fuel than a WWII bomber.
So a jet fuel explosion will be less hot than a gasoline one?
Or by volatility do you mean likelihood of explosion?
>>> Or by volatility do you mean likelihood of explosion? <<<
Volatility refers to the property of vaporizing. That is why if you store gasoline in the basement it quickly flashes over to the water heater as the fumes cross the floor. Kerosine will not do that. Volatility does not directly determine the heat a fuel will release when burned. Magnesium burns with a great amount of heat, but is not volatile.
Recently in Los Angeles there was an apartment house fire which was believed to have started when an arsonist was pouring forty gallons of gasoline around the halls on the first and second floor. The building exploded into flame, and the fire investigators believe the fumes seeped down to the water heater in basement and were ignited there. (They found a relative of the owner in a second floor room with empty gasoline cans.)
Tom
Volatility is related to a given liquid's flash point. Flammable liquids do not burn, only their vapors do. The rate of evaporation increases with temperature. A liquid's flash point is the temperature at which a liquid emits enough vapor to create a flammable atmosphere. Gasoline's flash point is well below zero Fahrenheit. Kerosene (Jet Fuel)'s flash point is actually about 125 Degrees F. However, the impact of a crash causes the fuel to be sprayed about in a fine mist which serves to create a flammable atmosphere. Hot surfaces which have fuel splashed on them act as wicks to create still more vapor. Eventually, all the fuel is consumed in a general fire.
We've all heard the choices, all three of them.
1) Leave the area and create a huge memorial park?
2)Re-build the area with several smaller towers?
3)Re-build the towers - possibly even taller.
Each one conveys a lot about our psyche. The memorial holding onto the past. The smaller towers, oh well the larger ones didn't work out but we need office space. The re-built towers, we'll show you who the real masters of the world are.
We can make a case for any of the three and find adequate support for each. The question we should be looking at is. If the towers are rebuilt to their former 110 stories or higher, who will work there? Would anyone here ever feel confortable working 90 stories up, knowing that the unimaginable has happened? While it may be great to shove it up the terrorists asses by rebuilding, will they, once rebuilt, remain largely empty monuments to the terrorists and to the dead?
If the new Towers were built with missles on the roof, and permission to shoot down any airplane directed at the new towers, people might feel safe. I wonder how people in the Empire State Building feel, and if companies in that building have considered leaving it since it has to be considered a terrorist target?
If the upcoming war goes our way, Americans may feel that the enemy has been eliminated, and will go back to the Towers feeling safe.
(The question we should be looking at is. If the towers are rebuilt to their former 110 stories or higher, who will work there?)
Expanding on your point, who will pay 50 percent more for smaller floor plates to work there? Throughout the Manhattan CBD, the zoning permits a 40 percent tower or towers (ie. a tower covering 40 percent of the lot) of unlimited height, subject to total floor area restrictions. Because of those restrictions, the taller the thinner, and the more of the floorplate devoted to circualtion. Hence, lots of 50 story towers.
That egomanic Trump built a very tall, thin RESIDENTIAL tower next to the U.N. convinced the rich would pay any price to be above their neighbors. I wonder if he sold out? If not, he might be sorry.
But businesses would rather be on one big floor. You can always chop up a wide floor for small businesses.
So I agree with the developer, who understands the economics: four 50 story towers, each wider than #1 and # 2 WTC. Put them at the corners. Run a 2-4 story retail space around the perimter, with arched passageways from each street to a central courtyard. It works.
Expanding on your point, who will pay 50 percent more for smaller floor plates to work there? Throughout the Manhattan CBD, the zoning permits a 40 percent tower or towers (ie. a tower covering 40 percent of the lot) of unlimited height, subject to total floor area restrictions. Because of those restrictions, the taller the thinner, and the more of the floorplate devoted to circualtion. Hence, lots of 50 story towers.
That egomanic Trump built a very tall, thin RESIDENTIAL tower next to the U.N. convinced the rich would pay any price to be above their neighbors. I wonder if he sold out? If not, he might be sorry.
Trump did sell out, or close to it. He apparently got a lot of wealthy foreign buyers looking for pieds a terre.
Note that high-rise residential buildings invariably have to be much thinner than office buildings, as almost every room has to have a window.
There are more than three options (variations); the least defensible is leaving the area entirely fallow.
I'm for respecting the dead but some people appear to believe that the "only" way to respect the dead is to leave an open field. Not only is this impractical in Manhattan, it is the disrespectful of the living, and could even be considered a slap in the face to the people who want us, as a society, to continue the vital work that went on in those towers, such as innovations in finance, real estate, vital law enforcement work etc.
And the idea that "Would anybody want to..." underestimates people's ability, as a group, to cope. Individuals will need support, but I'd like to think that, as a whole, we're not a hopeless flock of sheep who roll over and die ourselves because we are invited to work at a site where people died.
Our first and formost concern should be to take care of the living! Make sure 50,000 people continue to be able to live in NY and feed their families, and that NYC retains a tax base (even with property tax breaks, office space generates income taxes, sales taxes, etc.) to help its citizens depending on city services...
Any new construction should, appropriately, contain a memorial design of some sort. I certainly have no problem with that. But I have a problem with the tendency of a few people to focus almost childishly on this "leave it alone" idea. In Oklahoma City, you can do that because there's plenty of space and cheap rent; want a new building - fine, move it over a half-mile. Big deal (what they actually did was scatter federal agencies to other buildings).
There is nothing which will redefine this terrible tragedy and reduce its magnitude. But we can worsen it by amplifying the terrorists' results. By surrendering to them.
Interesting point. In the 1974 movie The Towering Inferno, Steve McQueen's character made a similar statement.
Some types of disasters you can't plan for in the building. We need tall buildings here because they're efficient and land-conserving. Statistically, the individual risk to a person is quite small, and that, appropriately, is what determines a building design.
Don't want kerosene fires on the 110th Floor? Improve airport security.
>>But you've got a better chance of escaping a smaller building and effectively fighting a fire in one.<<
So, what do you propose? All 10 story buildings in NY? Even in Brooklyn, we have plenty of buildings that are actually very tall for buildings (Some of our projects are over 30 stories up). Point is, a high rise above 15 stories falls into the same catagory as the Twin Towers did: impossible to fight a fire that high.
Since this catastrophy, I've wondered: "could the US government build a 'helicopter' of massive proportions that could carry fire fighting foam to hights above the twin towers and spray it on the building? After thinking about it, it seems to me that, while costly, it is indeed possible. While it probably could not have saved to Twin towers, it could certainly be beneficial in other high rise fires. Our government spends billions on defense contracts. Why not provide funding for a firefighting contract like that?
I also noticed that someone made mention about the Empire State building and how it would have fared against such an attack. There was a problem with the Twin Towers: their incredibly thin construction. After the planes rammed the buildings, the support columns were either taken out or were right in the way of the fire, loosing structural integrity by the minute. Had the buildings been wider, more of the columns would have been in place to hold the building up.
A second point is the 'cake layer' construction of the Empire State building. This means that the lower floors have much more support than the upper floors, which is needed. In the event that a plane crashed into the Empire State Building's upper floors, there would be much more structural support.
Finally, we have the materials that the outside of the buildings were constructed of. The extensive glass and steel of the Twin Towers allowed the plane to get into the building and explode then. But, if you compare the hole in WTC to the hole created in the ESB back in 1945 (46?) you'll see a big difference. Now, granted, the 767 into WTC was probably bigger and faster, but the stone construction of the ESB would have limited the interior damage, hence allowing more columns on the inside to remain standing.
Paul, I think most structural engineers would probably laugh at reading your post. I don't want to sound too critical, but most of what you've written is sheer nonsense. WTC's failure was about heat-related buckling, and it actually performed very well, savings lots of lives. The building's designers deserve medals
When the current emergency is over, you might want to do some research to satisfy your curiosity about the events that occurred. I believe the American Society of Civil Engineers has a website (if I got the name right) and a phone call to the engineers at a borough president's office will get you names of experts you can talk to.
Don't finger point on this one. It's wrong, and it could make you look very foolish.
>>Paul,<<
Who's Paul?
>>WTC's failure was about heat-related buckling, and it actually performed very well, savings lots of lives.<<
People constantly underestimate my intelligence. Oh, well.
Yes. I know that extreme temperatures were what caused the eventual collapse of the Twin towers. But, have you looked at the construction of the towers? Those long beams of metal on the outsides provided a great deal of support to the building. In the event you did not notice, a large number of them did not loose integrity due to extreme heat. They were mowed down by the airplane. When large objects like airplanes go through those support beams, they cease to give support to the floors above.
Aside from those outside support beams, there was a cluster of inside support beams too. While I cannot attest to how those beams held up in the initial impact, I think it's safe to say that a good number of them came down as well.
Now then, after close examination of what I just have said here, if the building was wider, more pillars would have been standing when the plane went in. Further, if the building was wider, more pillars would have been farther from the burning jet fuel.
>>I don't want to sound too critical, but most of what you've written is sheer nonsense.<<
Watching TV, You have many camera angles of the second plane going into the South tower. If you watch, the plane just went into the building, then exploded. It looked almost as if the plane was absorbed into the building. You can't tell me that the Empire State Building's exterior would have just allowed the plane to come in the building like WTC did. It would not have.
>>I think most structural engineers would probably laugh at reading your post.<<
The Cake layer construction of the Empire State Building would have provided more support to the upper floors. Oh, yeah, I'm sure that engineers would laugh at that. I mean think about it, a wider base supporting a thiner top section at floor 86. That's just common sense.
>>Don't finger point on this one. It's wrong, and it could make you look very foolish.<<
A good part of my point was that the ESB would have fared much better against this attack than the Twin towers. I don't think that any engineer would call me 'foolish' for saying that. I've heard reports from architects that the ESB is three times stronger than it needed to be. I've heard no such thing about WTC's Twin Towers.
While the burning fire within the Tower was indeed responsible for the final collapse, had some other factors been present, much like the ones I stated, the towers could be standing.
>>The building's designers deserve medals<<
I never said anything about this being their fault. I'm glad the designed it the way they did. When it collapsed, it came down on itself. Had it fallen over, stuyvesant is well within range of the building...
Sometimes, just sometimes, I actually have some vague idea of what I'm talking about. I know that's hard to believe, but in time you might believe something that I say.
It looked almost as if the plane was absorbed into the building. You can't tell me that the Empire State Building's exterior would have just allowed the plane to come in the building like WTC did. It would not have.
The B-25 that crashed into the Empire State Building in 1945 went completely inside. A 767 would have gone through the building.
The Cake layer construction of the Empire State Building would have provided more support to the upper floors. Oh, yeah, I'm sure that engineers would laugh at that. I mean think about it, a wider base supporting a thiner top section at floor 86. That's just common sense.
The momentum of the top collapsing would be sufficient to destroy the building. It was not the weight of the top that destroyed the World Trade Center, it was the force of it falling.
The momentum of the top collapsing would be sufficient to destroy the building. It was not the weight of the top that destroyed the World Trade Center, it was the force of it falling.
I don't think so. Read on . . .
From the Engineering News-Record:
Reports indicate that the impact of each plane compromised the structural integrity of each tower, knocking out perimeter columns and the interior structure. The explosions then caused further damage, sweeping through several floors. "These were airliners scheduled for long flights, full of fuel, causing massive explosions," says Richard M. Kielar, a Tishman senior vice president. "No structure could have sustained this kind of assault," says Kielar.
As the fires burned, the structural steel on the breached floors and above would have softened and warped because of the intense heat, say sources. Fireproofed steel is only rated to resist 1,500 to 1,600° F. As the structure warped and weakened at the top of each tower, the frame, along with concrete slabs, furniture, file cabinets, and other materials, became an enormous, consolidated weight that eventually crushed the lower portions of the frame below.
Jon D. Magnusson, chairman-CEO of Skilling Ward Magnusson Barkshire Inc., Seattle, one of the successor firms of Skilling Ward Christiansen Robertson, structural engineer for the original World Trade Center, agrees: "From what I observed on TV, it appeared that the floor diaphragm, necessary to brace the exterior columns, had lost connection to the exterior wall."
When the stability was lost, the exterior columns buckled outward, allowing the floors above to drop down onto floors below, overloading and failing each one as it went down, he says.
Source: Engineering News-Record 9/17/01
http://www.enr.com/new/coverstry.asp
I will concede that, in my haste of typing, I got the name wrong at the start of my post. Sorry about that.
As to the rest, there were a couple of good posts responding to yours. I suggest you read them closely.
The Empire State Building is a marvelous structure, but not one designed to take on an airplane several times larger and more powerful (in kinetic and stored chemical energy) than any airplane the ESB's builders could ever dream of. The B-29 is a gnat compared to the new airplanes flying.
I repeat my suggestion to you. Do some homework first. I should make something clear in case it isn't: I'm not criticizing any other post you've ever made - just the one I responded to.
Finally, we have the materials that the outside of the buildings were constructed of. The extensive glass and steel of the Twin Towers allowed the plane to get into the building and explode then. But, if you compare the hole in WTC to the hole created in the ESB back in 1945 (46?) you'll see a big difference. Now, granted, the 767 into WTC was probably bigger and faster, but the stone construction of the ESB would have limited the interior damage, hence allowing more columns on the inside to remain standing.
The "steel" that was on the outside of the World Trade Center was for decorative purposes only and had no structural significance whatsover. Inside, the columns were encased in concrete, as the building code requires and built with much redundancy. That's why the World Trade Center didn't immediately collapse.
That stone on the outside of the Empire State building is nothing. The outer walls of the ESB are of no structural significance, and that "stone" is just weak old masonry.
I beg to differ! The Exteria of both towers were structual box girders, and were responsible for supporting 1/2 of the floor lood. In this case they were spaced at a very conservative 3' 3" OC. External girders are normally on 10' -15' spacings. The floors were concrete over steel supported by trusses between the outer steel box beams and the central core structure holding the elevators and utilities. There were no columns in between, a factor used in marketing the space.
Folks,
It was the genius of design in the towers that lead them to stand for as long as they did, despite suffering catastrophic damage. Once the plane hit, the clock was ticking, and it was only a matter of time before the building failed. The architect and enginners should be thanked for their hard work allowed thousands to escape alive.
Sadly, more could not escape. That is the reason why engineers and architects are still needed. Yes, we need to try and fine ways for buildings to survive for a second more here and there when suffering such damage, but it will be impossible to design a 110 story building that can survive a lateral impact of 355,000 lb. travelling at ~400 mi/h.
Yes, the empire state is a stronger building, but it would have suffered the same fate. Remember, concrete shatters when exposed to such high temperatures. Just look what happened to the Pentagon.
I'm not saying us engineers can't do better, but with height comes risk. If we don't take the risk, then we might as well tear all the skyscrapers down and replace them with business parks and suburban tract housing,
MATT-2AV
Just the same, I don't think the TT collapsed in the way the hijackers envisioned. I think they saw a plane penetrating the building only part way, tilting it, and forcing it to fall intact in less than a minute.
I think you're right too. The first tower to fall, tower 2, failed in cantilever. What the terrorists didn't realize was that a building tipping over won't get very far. The enormous moment generates a net shear at every elevation, thus causing the building to literally be ripped apart. In lay mans terms, as the building tips, the top stories are left behind in the arc as the bottom stories fall.
MATT-2AV
A visual example of this a when an old smokestack is demolished and the top half breaks off and lands on top of the bottom half.
To structural engineers: What changes would you make for future skyscrapers. Let's say you were asked to design WTC II(the new twin towers). You were asked to keep the look of WTC I(the original) as much as possible.
I would rather see a new look, the WTC was way too bland. I think it's too soon to answer that question. Offhand, I would say that modern building practices might suffice, because there are newer steel alloys out there than whatever was availible 30 years ago.
There are composites available that may be stronger and resist heat. I don't know what experience has been had with them in ultra-highrise construction. Aside from better fireproofing, there really isn't too much you can do and still have a usable building. If a 767 isn't enough, the next time, they'll try a 747, or two. The good thing about better matierials is that they may allow the building to stand for a longer time before failure.
MATT-2AV
Maby a series of small setbacks along the lines of the Rockerfeller center bldg No 1 ( the tower ),the setbacks would allow a taller bldg with a better ballance,maby with a stronger exterior skin,yet still attractive to look at.the question is would people move into it as this would be a "prime target".
How about this as the rebuilt trade center? It would send a message to the terrorists!!!
WTC is an interesting case Matt. And, for one major reason...
Notice those long silver coloumns that ran up and down the outsides of WTC's Twin Towers. Those were where most of the structural support was. When the planes went barreling through the buildings, a great number of those columns were taken down. In case anyone didn't notice, when you loose columns, the remaining ones have to take on more of the stress of the building. Couple that with the fact that the fire burned without any type of way to slow it, and you have the WTC collapse.
As for the pentagon, most of it's damage came from the fact that it was hit by a 757. Notice the hole in 1 WTC?(the one that had the TV antenna) that hole had roughly the same height as the Pentagon. I think that the pentagon took the damage extremely well, keep in mind renovations were done there recently to enhance the building's strength.
Would the Empire State Building have suffered the same fate? Like I mentioned before, we will never know unless they try, and I pray they don't. But, meanwhile, engineers don't just need to improve buildings, firefighters also need to find a way to fight highrise fires.
A Heavy attack WW2 bomber B 25 mitchell flew directly inside of the empie state building & she still stands even today !!
A B-25 hit ESB? B-25's were medium sized propellor driven fighters, they'd do much less damage than a fully fueled 767.
I'd always thought it was a B-17. Guess not. Still, ESB is a much stronger building.
>>> A B-25 hit ESB? B-25's were medium sized propellor driven fighters <<<
The B-25 "Mitchell" was a medium bomber, not a fighter, with a wing span of 67 ft. 7 in. and length of 52 ft. 11 in. which is tiny in comparison with modern passenger jets. They were the aircraft (with modifications) used in the 1942 Doolittle raid on Tokyo.
The B-25 which struck the ESB did penetrate into it, so the idea that the outside of the ESB is stronger than the WTC was or it would stop a plane similar to the ones which hit the WTC is foolish.
The reason the ESB sustained so much less damage was that the plane which hit it was much smaller and lighter, traveling at only 200 mph and most important, it was almost out of fuel. One of its engines did travel through the building, exiting on the far side and ending up on the roof of another building.
Tom
The World Trade Center was designed to take a hit by a Boing 707. I'm not sure about the size difference between a 707 and a 757 but given the results, I think the building would probably have failed with a similar strike with the older plane.
i think i agree with both post (s) the B25 being low on fuel & the WTC would have come down with a B 25 hit as well !!
but if the wtc was supposed to be able to handle a hit with a boeing 707 why did it fail with a 757 & 767 ??
& was this with 90% fuel or less than 10-20% ???.....
F = M*A
I'm not sure again about the 'mass' of a B-25 or the fuel capacity but I don't think a B-25 would have done the trick. There was just not the mass nor the fuel capacity. Boing 707 vs 757 or 767, I'm not sure but we do know that both planes were carrying a full load of fuel for their trans-continental journies cut tragicly short. I also think jet fuel is far more volatile than WWII aviation fuel. I'm quite sure that WHEN the new World Trade Center rises from the ashes, these failures and vulnerabilities will be taken into account.
Is a Boeing 707 pretty much the same size as a 757?
My family and I went to vacation to Los Angeles this summer, and we rode a BOEING 757 (maybe it was a JET) from EWR to San Francisco. Departure time: 6:20a.
According to my calculations, the average speed the plane was traveling to San Francisco was approx. 0.13 mile per second, 7.92 miles per minute, 475 mph, which totals a flight time of 5.4 hours, which equals exactly 2565 miles. (The distance from EWR to SFO)
The mass of the UA flight into the World Trade Center from Boston is well over or around 1 million pounds. If this monster travels at a speed of around 150mph just before it hit, the force would be 150 million lbs. of force.
I'm not sure if a 707 would have the same characteristics, as in 1970, I don't think 757's or 767's existed.
Also, what happened to the BOEING 747's? Are they still running? I haven't heard much about them, except a show on it from a NATIONAL GEOGRAPHIC on TV.
Railfan Pete.
Is a Boeing 707 pretty much the same size as a 757?
Not at all. A 757 is much larger.
Also, what happened to the BOEING 747's? Are they still running?
Yes, mostly on cargo and international flights. IIRC, they're the largest civilian aircraft in use anywhere.
Here's a list of the most common Boeing models currently in use, and their distinguishing characteristics (as observed from the ground):
Boeing 727: Medium-sized, with three engines on the back. Two are mounted directly to the fuselage, with the third built into the fin on top. These are old planes, and are incredibly loud and filthy. The exhaust trail is very pronounced.
Boeing 737: Shorter than a 727, but noticeably wider. Has a very fat and stocky appearance, with one engine mounted below each wing.
Boeing 747: Incredibly huge, with two engines under each wing and a distinctive bulge at the top of the forward end of the fuselage. When approaching a runway, they appear to hang in the air while moving very slowly before landing.
Boeing 757: Larger than a 727 but smaller than a 747, with one engine under each wing. Easy to confuse with a 767, but has a somewhat narrower fuselage.
Boeing 767: Same general length and shape as a 757, but has a slightly wider fuselage, making it look a little larger than a 757.
Boeing 777: Almost -- but not quite -- as large as a 747, but with only one huge engine under each wing. These are the largest two-engine planes in use, and their engines are the most powerful of any commercial jet.
Amazing what one learns from working at an airport... And I don't even have a particular interest in airplanes!
-- David
Chicago, IL
That's impressive. My father can identify an airplane just by looking at it. He wasn't a pilot, just a retired engineer who flew in gliders in an earlier time.
http://members.tripod.co.uk/aerospace21/antonov/an-225.html
Largest plane in the world, for now.
The third engine of the 727 is located in the fuselage. The scoop directs air downward towards the engine. Its a S shape scoop.
Still, ESB is a much stronger building.
You don't put out anything to prove this stance.
The ESB has internal columns, do you actually believe that they wouldn't be knocked down, weakening the building if a 767 crashed into it?
Yes, the empire state is a stronger building
Why do you think this? Is it because it's older?
Older is not better.
Matt's a civil engineer, so he's not taking the nostalgic route about this. The ESB is considered stronger, because with the amount of reinforcment that went into it, the building could be twice as tall than what it is and still stand.
You don't understand what I meant by putting steel in quotes. Any of the steel that you see on the outside of a steel and glass building is just there for decoration. The real steel is inside and coated with concrete, or some other flame retardant.
I understand how my message was unclear, I apologize.
>>>The "steel" that was on the outside of the World Trade Center was for decorative purposes only and had no structural significance
whatsover.<<<
Not true!
The twin towers, **framed in structural steel, had exterior moment frames with 14-in. steel box columns spaced 39 in. on
center. The configuration created a complete tube around the building.** The central steel core carried gravity loads only.
The exterior tube provided all the lateral resistance. Horizontal steel trusses spanned 60 ft from the exterior wall to the core.
Concrete on metal deck completed the floor diaphragm.
Source: Engineering News-Record
http://www.enr.com/new/coverstry.asp
The 110-story towers were assembled from prefab grills, shipped from as far away as Seattle and Los Angeles and hoisted into
place by cranes specially built in Australia for the project. When bolted together, they **created more than 130 vertical steel
support columns on the exterior**, spaced 3 feet 3 inches apart. Horizontal steel beams from this outer tube helped to support
the 4-inch concrete floors. They also connected to an inner tube -- where the elevators were -- which was supported by another set
of steel columns.
''It was like a doughnut with this core element providing vertical support,'' says Tod Rittenhouse, principal of Weidlinger Associates.
''This shell had tremendous strength.''
Source: USA Today, 9/16/01, Page 6A
http://www.usatoday.com/usatonline/20010913/3627671s.htm
I tend to agree that the towers should be rebuilt. If for no other reason than to signify that the western world will not be intimidated by extremists. However, the psychological factor weighs in: since the new towers would once again be sitting ducks for possible future attacts, would tenants sign on and would people willingly want to work in them? As for a memorial, I imagine that if the towers do rise again, some portion of the centre would certainly contain a place for remembrance.
Ian McCrea
Toronto, ON
Like The Mythical Phoenix, The Twin Towers Will Rise From The Ashes And Start Again. (But use Different Blueprints and Design Spec's)
Those design specs saved many lives. We will learn from this, and will rebuild, but no structure is safe when it comes to terrorism. Someone will always figure a way to destroy what man has built. Our greatness is built on the disasters and screwups of the past.
Personally, I have always considered the towers an ugly blight on the New York landscape, not on the order of Madison Square Garden but ugly just the same. However, I think it likely that some form of the towers will be rebuilt within the next ten years simply because they have become, in one day, a symbol of America. It will be imperative for the American psyche to rebuild.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Yes, the WTC was bland as hell. However, I liked them anyhow just for their dominating appearance. If a new one a built, they need a more exciting design.
I hope something even more grandious is built, and atop it, a memorial to show terrorists that they can NEVER kill the US spirit. How about a picture of Ben Laden or whoever the hell he is with US citizens pissing on his dead body while waiving an American flag. My grandfather was in the Navy for 20 years and I hope he haunts that bastard in his dreams.
They should rebuild the Twin Towers if only to prove that life in the nation will go on.
I agree, but in the lobby area put a memorial dedicating all of those dead or missing when WTC reopens.
Something that lists ALL the names---Break it down between NYC, Pentagon and our heroes of Flight 93----Plus, I'd recommend creating monuments at all 3 locations. The one picture of the 3 firefighters raising the flag on the pole in the rubble reminds me soo much of the Iwo Jima Memorial---I think it'd be perfect.
Mark
As I've been glued to the TV for the past two days, I haven't been keeping up with this site as to whether the subway is again running (I imagine portions of it are)and if so which lines. Obviously those lines through the WTC area would be affected and rerouted elsewhere.
Anyone know?
Ian McCrea
Toronto, ON
Try the MTA Site
Check the EMERGENCY notice on MTA's website. And be sure to click the Refresh button first after loading to ensure an up-to-date information database!
Currently, 95% of the Subway lines have restored service. Station stops in Manhattan between Court (or Canal, I get mixed up) will BYPASS stations until Borough Hall, or out of Manhattan into Brooklyn.
Hope this helps. By the way, I have a feeling that the rubble cleanup and further investigation will take a bare minimum of weeks to complete. How long does it take for firefighters, doctors, and other people to clean up a rubble pile 5 stories high? And there is not just one, but two piles.
14 or Canal Stret to Bourough hall.
From the TA Website
Subways
Most service has resumed. All stations in Manhattan from Canal Street and south of Canal Street will be bypassed.
Service on the following lines is normal:
A (running on F line from W.4th to Jay St.), B, D, F, G, L, Q (local and express), W, 4 (bypassing all stops between Union Sq/14th St. and Borough Hall), 5 (bypassing all stops between Union Sq/14th St. and Borough Hall), 6 (normal to Bleecker St., returning to northbound service at Spring St.), 7, Grand Central Shuttle.
C service is suspended.
The following lines are operating with diversions:
1 (242nd St./Van Cortlandt to 34th St.)
2 (241st St./Wakefield to 34th St. - Express)
2 (Shuttle — Flatbush Av to Atlantic Av)
3 (148th St to 135th St, connecting to 2 train)
E (Parsons Archer to West 4th St., express in Manhattan, local in Queens)
J (Parsons Archer to Essex St.)
M (Metropolitan Av. to Broadway/Myrtle)
N (Astoria to 34th St. and Stillwell to Court St.)
R (95th St. to Court St.)
Welcome back ! glad you are safe. Your son kept us posted. Did you feel anything while in the subway or any "smoke" etc.
It was terrible. I know something bad had to of happend but I didn't know how bad. I made the 8:16AM out of 242 Street. At around 8:50AM I was leaveing Houston Street when I started loseing power and then It came back and then went out on back on again. I was starting to remember the days of the last city Blackout. Well I made into into Canal street then Control reported an Explosion at Courtlandt Street and for all No.1 trains between 14 Street and Chambers to get into a station and hold. I seen nothing at Frankin so I moved up and held there. My leader was at the Home Signal North of Chambers. Times Square ordered my leader in service to New Lots. Then Times Square ordered me to move up to Chambers and go back to the Bronx. I was working with a new Conductor only out 5 weeks. So I let her know what was happend and we went back Uptown. As I was leaveing trains where reporting heavy smoke into the tunnels. Control was ordering trains to pick up but try not to drop off passengers in Lower Manhattan. Then when I was at 72 Street control said something about a building callapes in Lower Manhattan. I just didn't believe my ears. Then when I got back to 242 Street I looked at the T.V and I couldn't believe the WTC went down.
The goal back in the subways was to get the trains out of lower Manhattan. No.1 Trains like I said went to New Lots and a No.2 train even ended up hear at 242 Street.
Today I got to hear some storys from other train crews Like my leader. He said when he came into Fulton Street the people were covered in white and the smoke was so thick he couldn't see anything in the tunnel not even the leaving signal. The T/O tryed to call Control but couldn't be heard. The people where running in and out of the train and it took them a while to move. Then when they got to New Lots there was no way back to the bronx.
Lucky for me I got to get turned back instead of going to Brooklyn but It could have easly been me at Fulton Street.
THANK YOU for asking and I hope everything is well for you. My heart and prayers go out to everyone in America.
With C service suspended, I presume A trains are making all local stops along the entire route.
It would be a good time to consider re-activating the "K" from Canarsie or Jamaica to 168th St to replace the "c" in Manhattan and "Z" in Brooklyn.
How does the "A" detour to the Rutgers if its not on the local tracks? I think it must be local or go local just north of 59th St. to make the switch south of West 4th St.
avid
Precisely. Only the local tracks interconnect at W. 4th St. A southbound A train would have to cross over before 59th St. and continue down 8th Ave. on the local track. There are no other express to local crossover switches until Canal St.
Reading the daily news today, I read the article about the structure type, wanted to being an architect in the future, I read the article slowly to understand every single word and they discussed the way it was built and how they outer core columns, and a "Outer Shell" to obtain more office space. Normally Sky Scrapers would have an interior support columns to support the structure. Now when it came to the Airplane hitting the tower it seemed that the 'Outer Shell' was completly taken out, and the Jet Engine Fire cause the remaining columns to bend and then the accordian effect occured since the weight of the upper floors can no longer be supported. I wonder if there were inner support columns if thing would be different, if the structure would have survived. I know as an architect in the future, that when looking at this and how to build skyscrapers I will always concider terrorist airplane collisions as a factor that could cause destruction to a tower. Architecture will never be the same again.
I don't think there's any structural system in the world that could have prevented the towers from toppling under such extreme circumstances. Maybe the use of reinforced concrete instead of steel for the structure, but that's just speculation. I'm actually amazed the towers stood for as long as they did, giving at least some people a chance to evacuate. Under these circumstances, I wouldn't consider that a failure.
There are some forces that buildings simply cannot withstand, period. We'd have to be living and working in underground bunkers in order to be safe from something like this. Being a part of this world involves risks, plain and simple. We can, and should, try to minimize such risks, but we will never completely be able to eliminate them.
-- David
Chicago, IL
a structural engineer on TV4 stated that the empire state bldg survived because the steel was concrete encased.
The plane that hit it wasn't a jet, and wasn't carrying an assload of fuel.
Nor was that other plane carrying a ****load of C - 4, the most powerful explosive that you can slip past the dectectors (and boy, that packs a powerful punch!)
C-4? Ooooh, yummy stuff! Just a little bit of it (say, about 6 ounces) can cause a significant blast. A 1-kilo brick of it is REAL trouble.
wayne
But typically causes a directed explosion rather than the fireball which was seen by all of us.
The fireball was from the impact of the plane. The collapse may have been caused by the detonations of the plastics (if i'm not wrong.)
Would have happened much faster if it was from the plastic.
There has been no reports of explosives, other than the fuel which was more powerful than the amount of C-4 that could have been brought onboard.
I thought the Army used Composition B for GP Bombs during WW2.
The World Trade Center buildings were an outstanding success - under incredible stress, the building held up long enough for many lives to be saved. It then pancaked straight down, instead of each tower toppling in a different direction and wiping out half of Manhattan.
The designers deserve our praise and thanks, not criticism.
Yes, that was one VERY fortunate thing about the structure.
Oh yes a very key point. I thought of this right away & wondered why it came streight down ... wouldn't have expected that, e.g. when the first one came down I initially thought it was only some of the upper floors.
Mr t__:-(
It came straight down because of the outer load-bearing walls. The WTC construction was like this: An inner core of columns supporting the elevators and stairs; four outer walls consisting of columns spaced about 3 feet apart; tied together by steel and concrete floors, which acted as a giant horizontal brace.
The massive payload of jet fuel heated the steel beams to temperatures of over 1000 degrees, which started to melt the outer steel columns. Since these were considerably below the top of the building, you had the effect of an enourmously heavy block (the upper floors) crashing through the melting section, hitting the flat slab below. This in turn snapped the next floor of columns (also softened, and these floors hit the slab below them. By this time, the huge mass has picked up velocity, and thus force; it more or less peeled off the outer walls like the skin of a bananna, and the slabs fell straight down.
Good explanation.
The Japanese designer of the twin towers -- Minoru Yamasaki -- is quoted in today's Newsday as saying '"The World Trade Center should, because of its importance, become a living representation of man's belief in humanity," he once said, "his need for individual dignity, his belief in the cooperation of men, and through this cooperation, his ability to find greatness."'
BMTman
I saw something particularly moving last night on TV, among all the other coverage.
Steelworkers from the local Ironworkers Union stopped construction on all their other sites in New York, and immediately headed down to the Trade Center to offer help in the rescue effort, with all their ironworking tools in tow. This is the same union that originally built the WTC towers, and many were sons of the original steelworkers. It took over seven hours before they were even allowed to go to the site, but they stuck around refused to accept "no" for an answer.
I've never been in a union myself (although there have been plenty of times I could have benefitted from union representation), and up until the past couple years I tended to cast a skeptical eye toward most unions. However, there's been several events in my recent past that have caused a profound shift in my viewpoints. Today, as a member of the construction industry who works with Union carpenters and electricians every day and has seen firsthand the bonds of their brotherhood, I was moved to tears by the solidarity of not only the steelworkers, but also the fire department and police officers and transit workers.
God bless these men, and all the other Union workers who are showing what they're made of today.
-- David
Chicago, IL
Amen to that. Well said.
Luckily yet sadly the towers imploded instead of exploded or anything below Canal would be destroyed.Is it me or is everyone getting so sick of this new skyline.
The downtown skyline is one of the highest on Earth, but just by the lack of those mighty towers, now looks as low as Omaha.
Then 7 WTC fell and now One Liberty Plaza may be next?
Is there gonna be anything left of downtown Manhattan by the end of the week?
If they toppled sideways everything from Chinatown to S.Ferry could've been gone. Sure makes you think it could've gotten even worse. And I've always felt uncomfortable in Chinatown with those towers looming over me. Buildings that tall are a danger to themselves and everyone around them.
"Buildings that tall are a danger to themselves and everyone around them."
A huge exaggeration and a misunderstanding of engineering.
Buildings that tall are a danger to themselves and everyone around them.
Airplanes, subway trains, automobiles, electricity, and low-rise buildings are also dangers to themselves and to everyone around them. But those dangers are the risks we accept for living in modern society.
-- David
Chicago, IL
The WTC design had a high level of redundancy. The "outer shell" columns were 3 feet apart, newer buildings have them at 10 feet apart. Plus, the tourist elevator shafts, which spanned the entire height of the building, and even dipped into the subbasement, provided additional support.
I would guess that when the planes hit and mostly passed through the structure, they probably severed the elevator columns which would have resulted in the fuel explosion and spill would have traveled to the bottom of the shafts and may have weakened the foundations of the towers. Due to the extent of the collapse, and the continuing fires we may never know the extent of the damage before the collapse.
Watch the TV replays of the collapse carefully. The collapse didn't begin at the foundations, but began at the floors that sustained the impact. The structural columns on those floors, already seriously damaged, became very weak due to the intense flames. Steel loses its strength at around 800 degrees Farenheight, and according to news reports, jet fuels burns at around 1600 degrees. Once these floors gave way, the tops of the towers, while still intact for a couple seconds, came crashing down onto the rest of the building. It's what engineers call a "progressive collapse", essentially a vertical domino effect.
-- David
Chicago, IL
I agree that it was a progessive collapse, but questions keep coming up about damage to subway and Path tubes. The main elevator shafts went deep into the substructure.
With that much weight coming down on top of them, or course the PATH and subway stations would be heavily damaged. What would you expect, that all that inertia would merely stop at street level and not continue any further?
-- David
Chicago, IL
And if anyone was in the elevators at that time. I'm getting chills just thinking about it.
The WTC's "tube structure" is unique, since most skyscrapers' outside walls are just curtians that provide no structural support. Of course, there were inner support columns in the building, the elevator core still had to be supported. Personally, I don't think that is the wisest setup, however I'm not too familair with it. The reason that the towers fell was becuase the heat generated by the fire melted the steel in that area. Note that the towers were still standings after the planes hit, it took time for the steel to give way. Once the top portion of the towers began to collapse, all that potiential energy was released, and let me tell you, ain't nuthin' stopping that shit from fallin'. Hence, the towers collapsed.
If the steel was incased in concrete and a more conventional skeleton was used, the buildings might still be standing.
Architecture will never be the same again.
Naw, Archi-torture just deals with how it looks, Civil Engineers actually figure out how to build it. (Third year GA Tech CE student right here!) :)
Accoding to several CE's that I have talked to the steel was encased in concrete. The external truss structure is what allowed the building to flex under the impact (several feet from reports). Had this flex not been built in the structure may have toppled rather than undergoing a progessive collapse. This was apparently done to resist earthquake, wind and structual damage from impact. Witness that the collapse didn't happen for some period of time which allowed the escape of thousands of people. Never having experienced damage of this degree to any building in the world before, the info from this disaster will provide the groundwork for any new structures that are built, and prevent or minimize the repitition of this disaster in future buildings.
I agree. By having the structure flex, it absobed the energy (which has to go *somewhere*, witout topling the building. In fact, it's pretty unfair to bash the design of the building - it withstood a collision with a plane that was larger than the design intended (the 757 is a widebody - much bigger than a 707). In addition , it sustained dammage that was unbelieveable - and it still stood - givening people many needed minutes to evacuate - had it toppled immediately, the death count would be starting at 10 to 20 thousand per tower. My guess is we would have been MUCH luckier if the planes were at the tail end of their trips, not just starting. In any case, both buildings withstood an amazing amount of dammage before finally falling. I think you'd be hard pressed to find ANY design out there that would fare better (and I think Empire State comparisions are silly because both of these aircraft traveled faster and were much bigger and held a lot more fuel than a B-17). Maybe the X frame or bundled tube designs in Chicago, but I don't know.
I'm curious as to how this will affect the design of that new office building gong up in Chicago that was supposed to be a record breaker. As I recall, the entire floors were going to be cantilevered of a central collum. I don't think so now.
The building codes try to design against every conceivable natural disaster that that locality is subject to....earthquake, wind, snow, etc. If you're going to build to the "asshole factor", your structure will be solid concrete. The Twin Towers were designed to withstand the impact, and fires due to "reasonable" causes, not jet fuel fires. If the building were made of ceramics (which could withstand the heat), it wouldn't have survived the impact from the crash, and things would be much worse than they already are now.
Chicago that was supposed to be a record breaker. As I recall, the entire floors were going to be cantilevered of a central collum. I don't think so now.
Assuming you're talking about the proposed tower at 7 South Dearborn, those plans have been abandoned due to financing difficulties.
Donald Trump had announced plans to build a world's-tallest building on the site of the soon-to-be-defunct Sun-Times Building. However, specific designs for that tower have not yet been released, and given the state of the economy and the fact that we are about to enter a war, I don't think we'll be seeing too many new towers going up for a while. (And given The Donald's dismal track record on quality design, I'd be the first to say good riddance.)
-- David
Chicago, IL
How do you think the Hancock or Sears towers would have fared under the circumstances ?
There's no way to tell; it's pure speculation. I'm guessing they probaly would have suffered the same fate as the Trade Center towers. No skyscraper is strong enough to withstand the laws of physics.
-- David
Chicago, IL
I've seen construction photos, and it appeared to be only steel. Perhaps they really did put concrete. Again, I'm not really familiar with the design of the building.
I think the design was a major problem. With the main strength of each twin tower in it's skin, made of many steel beams, it melted and cannot support the floors. The WTC twin towers were the same dimensions, from bottom to top, which I believe also contributed to it's demise. Was the WTC a real solid structur? It didn't look very solid yesterday. The Empire State Building is a lot tougher than the former Twin towers because it's base looks alot stronger.
From the coverage on ABC it looked as if the planes cut through most of the interior. The fact that they were supported from the skin is what saved so many people, giving them the time to escape before the collapse. Had this happened to the Empire State Building the collapse might have been immediate, as it strength is in the core. Had it been sheered like the towers it would have been toppled causing much greater damage.
The World Trade Center withstood a strike that the Empire State Building would probably not have been able to. The dimensioning of the tower was an advantage in that each corner was as strong as the others - strength integrity was maintained. As I've posted before, there was no problem here. The designers are heroes who saved lives.
First (and nitpicking), architects don't design the structural support systems of buildings. Engineers do.
Second, the WTC still has (had) an internal support system, called shear walls, which were basically the elevator shafts and cores which carried water, wastewater, electricity, telephone, etc. While the outer supports bear some of the building's weight, the shear walls bear some also.
Third, the impact of the airline hit didn't immediately cause the building to collapse. The fire/heat most likely buckled the steel, which became unable to support the weight of the structure above it. (Keep in mind the combination of the jet fuel and the combustion of building materials, paper, etc probably put temperatures in excess of 1000 degrees F, enough to cause damage to steel.) Once this steel failed, the building did what it did, basically imploded upon itself. This is the same principle used in building implosions, i.e. weaken the structure at key points, then cause failure at these weak points, and collapse will result.
It is unlikely that any building could sustain this type of damage and remain intact, with the exception of thick masonry structures (and there are few of these around). Even the Pentagon, with its massive stone construction, was severely damaged. It's physics - the mass of a large body moving at high speed will cause tremendous impact.
Engineers will have a tough time with this one, since much will be learned about how high-rise structures behave in such conditions, but the price of this education will be a high one.
Given what may soon happen with 1 Liberty Plaza -- a sideways collapse -- odds are builders will want a design very similar to the WTC only made as sturdy as possible, so that even if those protections don't prevent a catasrophic collapse, the building comes straight down like an implosion detonation, cutting the collateral damamge as much as possible.
Yes, true.
The Pentagon is not made out of stone. Reports are that the structure is wood.
520pm WNBC TV4- the baalnce of 1 WTC collapsed and they now fear for 5 WTC.
So far we have lost 1 WTC.2 WTC, and 7 WTC.
ANy one knows the status of 3 WTC, 4 WTC and 6 WTC. Will they survive and if they dont which is next to go and which will be the last survivor. Which is most likely to survive.
BULLETIN: 1 liberty Plaza just went-partially collapsed.
Any other nearby buildings in danger?
WTC4 is nothing but broken windows,a frame and soot.
OK, let's add 4 WTC to the RIP List.(It may be standing but a total loss.) what about 3 and 6.
what other buildings- WTC or otherwise may collpase.Will 1 Liberty Plaza finish the partial collpase-ie will it finish collapsing.
Structural engineers on this site - why is this domino effect hapening and how long will the domino effect last.
1 Liberty plaza suffered the same fait as Centur 21.All window broken
But the building is still standing?
yes.ike I said.When the WTC collaped the buildings imploded instead of exploded.
But then,nearly 40 buildings were destroyed
1 Liberty Plaza has partially collapsed and there is a gas leak in the Financial district.I repeat.1 Liberty Plaza has Partially collapsed.
They have stated that the gas leak is at Broadway and John Street.
wayne
Thats over the 4 and 5 right
5 WTC has collapsed and the frame of the towers have also collapsed.And 1 iberty Plaza is in danger of collapsing.If it dos hopefully it will drop towards the WTC.
According to channel 11, they are planning on a controlled demo of Liberty plaza . A building "behind 1 liberty has developed major cracks."
That will shut down the IRT 4/5 and the non-stop run between Boro Hall and 14th St., since Liberty Plaza goes over to Broadway.
The 4/5 stopped running around 7:00.
Yes, that would be in the area of the Fulton Street station complex. One block south of Fulton.
Liberty Plaza, a building occupying a whole city block (Cortlandt, Broadway, Liberty and Trinity) has either collapsed or is in imminent danger of doing so. Anyone have any idea how tall this building is?
wayne
Fifty-four stories. Fox News has a camera locked on it as of 7:15 p.m. waiting for it to come down, though it's hard to see the thing clearly due to all the smoke.
Liberty Plaza, a building occupying a whole city block (Cortlandt, Broadway, Liberty and Trinity) has either collapsed or is in imminent danger of doing so. Anyone have any idea how tall this building is?
Irony of ironies, One Liberty Plaza is built on the site of the Singer Building, which about 35 years ago earned the title of the tallest building ever demolished.
I actually don't see how it could have suffered such severe structural damage. It's quite a distance from the WTC towers, and from what I've heard the debris field from the collapses was fairly well contained.
Now I wonder about Trinity Church.
Rumors are coming about rebuilding the towers already.
These are only rumors
The collapse of the WTC buildings plus the reported cave-ins of the subway tunnels may have caused enough ground shifting in the area to put Liberty Plaza in jeopardy -- sort of like an underground domino effect. However, I think Liberty Plaza is a different construction than the WTC buildings, so there's no telling how or which way it will fall -- a vertical drop or a horizontal tilt, possibly into another building to the north or south. I would think a fall east or west would be less likely, because of the smaller surface areas on both sides, unless one of the subway tunnels on Church or Broadway completely gives way.
I would worry less about Trinity Church, a fairly low-rise building, built chiefly of stone, unless one of the surrounding buildings falls upon it. I am sure that debris has fallen into its churchyard.
5 WTC has collapsed as well.
wayne
let's see:That leaves 4 WTC as a shell- probably total and either will fall or at some point be demolished and no news on 3 WTC and 6 WTC. Any news of those buildings.
I'm sure it doesn't matter what the current state is. They're going to have to tear them down if they don't fall on their own...
Even some of the surrounding buildings that may be structurally sound could be torn down, if their insurance companies decide the cost to fix up the building is less than the real estate the building sits on if a new structure is put up.
That's what happened last year when a tornado hit the 37-story Bank One buidlning in Fort Worth. It could have bee salvaged, but the insurance company decided it wasn't worth the effort, and the building was then sold to another company for demolition and reconstruction.
3WTC is as good as dead.No news on 6WTC
Century 21 now listed as endangered, likely to collpase since it is now perpendicualr to where WTC 1 was.
Is there anyone who has been onsite who can clarify the collateral damage situation?
Reports on ABC have 40 buildings around the towers suffered collateral damage. Varied from concusion damage to windows to major structual damage. Reports still don't seem to list which buildings are which.
And how about Subway service there at WTC?
I am safe at home. I go in Friday night for Staurday- I work overnight. When I get home saturday I will post further info.
I was on a train a block from the WTC when the first tower came down.
I had first heard obout the attacks on the Center before leaving my home in Brooklyn. I decided therefore to take the IRT from the Juction, rather than my usual Q train, since I thought there was a good chance the Manhattan Bridge would be shut down, since it is a potential target. At first I got a 2; they were saying that they weren't sure if it would go up the Lex or 7th ave, but I figured that either way would be good for me; I work in the area north of Grand Central, so I could either take it all the way, or change at Nevins for a 4 or 5. When we got in to Franklin, a redbird 4 was across the platform, so I switched. We were running fine, with the exception of an anouncement, first made at Nevins, then repeated at Boro Hall, Bowling Green, and Wall Street, that because of the "earlier incidents" at the WTC, we would be bypassing Fulton St. It was as we were pulling out of Wall Street that things started to get interesting: first, everyone on the train noticed a change in the air preasure - ears popping, and train doors moving in slightly in their frames, as they do when another train passes next to the one you are on. About 2-3 seconds later, the emergency brakes went off. The C/R then came on the PA, and anounced, in a panicky voice, "Everyone to the front of the train, _now_, to evacuate!" I was in the last car; everyone immediately got up and started to move up. I had only gotten into the next car, when the T/O got on and said that rather than the front, we should all go to the rear, as there was smoke ahead. We all then turned around and went back. I got to the rear storm door and looked out into the tunnel; there was what looked like smoke starting to roll in from that side too, and the tunnel lights were out. One of the train crew then turned off the A/C to avoid bringing the smoke into the cars. About four minutes later, the T/O came to the back of the train and looked out; he saw the smoke, cursed, then got back on the radio with control to ask for guidance and assistance. Control was kind of busy, and couldn't get back to him right away. He kept on calling, saying he had a "five-minute situation", and where the f--- was the assistance he'd been promised fifteen minutes ago - he needed someone to come and open up Fulton station so he could evacuate. He was then told to reverse and return to Wall St. to evacuate. He had left the train charged from the north end, though, and would have to walk back to get his brake handle; however, with several of the passengers on the verge of panic, he thought it would not be a good idea for him to leave the car he was in. He tried to raise the C/R to ask him to do this, but couldn't get him on the radio. About then, though, another TA worker with some kind of mask on came walking down the tracks with a flashlight; he walked around the train to get the handle, and brought it back to the T/O. We then started to move toward Wall Street, but the brakes tripped again after about 20 feet - apparently, A/C power to the signals had gone out, and all the trippers had come up; one that was now under the train tripped us. The T/O recharged within about 30 seconds, and started moving again, and got tripped again when the next tripcock hit the same tripper. He then told us to sid down or brace ourselves, as this would continue to happen until we made it into the station - in fact, it happened about 2-3 more times.
Once he got the first (last?) car into Wall, he keyed open the doors that were in the station and told us to get out, and _fast_. We ran out through the station, which was pretty smokey, and had a layer of dust on the ground - no one really knew what was going on; I thought there may have been another bombing, and just wanted to get out in the open in case anything colapsed. When we got to the street, it was unreal; about 2-2 inches of dust on the ground, pitch dark, and choking, swirling dust and debries on the ground - you couldn't breathe, you couldn't see more that a couple of feet in front - nothing. People were yelling, "when are we going to bo out" - it was so dark, they didn't realize that they were _already_ out on the street. Some rescue workers or volunteers were yelling to follow their voices and get into a building where there was water and the air was clearer, so I pulled my shirt up to cover my mouth as much as possible and went in that direction. When we got inside, they told us that one of the towers had colapsed, and that was the source of the dust. Thank god there was a working phone inside, so I was able to call my family and coworkers and tell them I was OK.
After about 45 minutes, when the dust had somewhat settled, they told us we could leave if we wanted, but should head south, towards the Battery - for lack of anything better to do, I decided to go there.
They had a bunch of tugboats there to take people to Jersey and uptown, so I took one uptown, got off at 63rd St., and walked to my office to have a place to stay until I could get back to Brooklyn. I stayed until the F started to run again, and then finally headed home at about 7.
Well, that's my story. I hope I never have to go through something like that again.
subfan
Very detailed and well-written.
We appreciate this first-hand account.
Thank God you and everybody else on the train made it out fine.
I'm not so sure about the well-written part, but thank you for your kind thoughts. You can believe me, I definitely _did_ thank God one I was safe.
subfan
Interesting account. It certainly must have been frightening. I guess it shows how difficult it is to prepare for a crisis situation. Had everyone known better, it would have been better to have gone back to Bowling Green, where things presumably were safer than at Wall Street. But obviously, no one knew.
We _couldn't_ go back to Bowling Green; the signals were out, so all trip arms were up - we would have had to wait, either for someone to hook down the arms, or for us to trip and re-charge as _each_ car in the train was tripped at each and every signal. In a tunnel that was rapidly filling with smoke and dust, and with a group of passengers on the verge of panic, that didn't seem like much of an option. Additionally, there were trains behind us as well, blocking the way to Bowling Green. In all, I think the T/O in particular conducted himself well under difficult conditions.
subfan
Glad to see to made it out okay. God bless you, the other passengers, and the transit crew for getting everybody out calmly and safely.
-- David
Chicago, IL
Thank you. It was interesting; most of the passengers were pretty calm, except for one guy who was yelling that of course I was sure _I_ would be rescued, since I was _white_. This was almost laguhable, it was so pathetic; the C/R was a Hindu or Sikh from India with a large turban (no racism intended; just describing the guy in case anyone from the TA knows who he is); the C/R was Black; and I think the guy on the tracks may have been Hispanic.
subfan
I know that T/O. He looks like a swami. Perculiar thing is I think he is white. Sounds like he did a good job. Self preservation.
One interesting thing: they kept running the trains until Tower II came down. I'm amazed at how few people are dead. I wonder how many got away on the subway?
One interesting thing: they kept running the trains until Tower II came down. I'm amazed at how few people are dead. I wonder how many got away on the subway?
Most people probably fled the area on foot. Thousands and thousands of people were fleeing north past my workplace on Hudson Street one mile north of the WTC starting before 9:30. And foot traffic on West Street was even heavier. I suspect that most people just wanted to get out of the area ASAP and didn't want to wait for the next train.
I overheard a conversation on the LIRR Atlantic Avenue Branch this morning where one of the guys was a Wall Streeter who WALKED NEARLY THE ENTER LENGTH OF FLATBUSH AVE. as subway service was out and vehicle traffic was tied in a knot for hours.
He walked to Kings Highway where he stayed overnight at a friends' house.
Amazing stories will continue to come in...
BMTman
I overheard a conversation on the LIRR Atlantic Avenue Branch this morning where one of the guys was a Wall Streeter who WALKED NEARLY THE ENTER LENGTH OF FLATBUSH AVE. as subway service was out and vehicle traffic was tied in a knot for hours.
When I got to Penn Station last Tuesday around noon, a couple of police officers were suggesting that people walk over the 59th Street bridge and try to get the LIRR in Queens (Woodside, maybe?) I considered that, but when asked the cops said they didn't actually know if the LIRR was operating in Queens. Walking three or four miles into Queens and then getting stuck there sounded worse than getting stuck in Manhattan. I found a nearby bar, with a TV playing CNN and Bass Ale on draft, and waited for Penn Station to reopen.
I once walked the entire length of Broadway in Manhattan VOLUNTARILY.
I would have done the same to Flatbush on Tuesday (except I'd have to go to Avenue U, EVEN FURTHER), except that I realized that my grandparents live near Prospect Park.
This is not true. I was kicked off the L train at Lorimer St. @ 10:10 AM. Here, i was notified by a token booth clerk that all service was frozen. When I exited the system here, the north tower was still standing, as I clearly saw it from Bklyn.
wasn't tower 2 the frist one to fall?
Tower 2 was hit first, but the hit was higher up and with a smaller jet than with Tower 1, so it was the last to fall.
Tower 2 was hit first, but the hit was higher up and with a smaller jet than with Tower 1, so it was the last to fall.
Tower 2 (the north tower) was hit at 8:48 and fell at 10:28. Tower 1 was hit at 9:03 and fell at 9:57.
You got it backwards. Tower 1 is the NORTH tower. It was hit first and it came down last.
Yes. That was my building.
Ouch. I was in the building when the planes hit and my experience wasn't half as scary. Thankfully, I left the area at 9:30, getting a northbound #2 (R142's, FYI) @ Park Place with a fellow Morgan Stanley worker whom I intercepted and prevented from entering the building (she had exited the Cortland St. station just before tower #2 was hit and had to be convinced that something really bad was going on). I creeped to 14th St, making all stops, telling all the disbelieving passangers what was going on. then got the L to Brooklyn. Only made it to Lorimer before train service was frozen. Until this time, I had no idea any of the buildings collapsed.
Pilots, sensing they are going to be hijacked, should be instructed to do a complete fuel dump. Well, maybe not complete, leave enough for 10 minutes of flight in the event it was a mistake, so it could find and land at an airport. Had the pilots of the hijacked planes done that, the planes would have never hit their targets. Even if they did, there wouldn't have been as big a fire and the towers could have stood for several days without collapsing, enought time for emergency crews to put in temporary support and of course enough time to save everyone in all floors other than the ones directly affected by the impact.
To effectively do this, the planes may need to have an additional button or switch in the cockpit that will automatically do this.
I have a better idea. There needs to be one or two armed guards on each plane. If anyone attemts to hijack a plane, the guards shoot to kill and ask questions later. All El Al pilots carry guns, hense, their plans do not get hijacked.
mmm
good idea
The problem with that is what if the hijacker starts with a knife and takes the guard unexpectedly. Now he has a gun.
I heard they were going to ban knives on planes. There would be more than one guard on each plane I would think.
During the period when there were sky martials on our aircraft I believe there was always more than one.
There are still sky martials on our aircraft; however they are not on all flights and they travel incognito.
Dan
No system is perfect but is would make a good deterrent. Also the guards do not have to be uniformed either. They can pose as passengers. I can't guarantee sucess, but if only there was someone with a gun on those planes yesterday, we might be complaining about delays on the Queens Blvd. line or some other trivial matter. We will never know. If someone had a gun on the Long Island Railroad in December, 1993, Colin Ferguson would not have gunned down as many people either.
The reason the hijackers didnt have a gun is that if it pierces the skin, the plane explodes due to pressure differences
A burst pressure cabin would probably not bring the plane down. many many planes have had windows and doors and whole sections of the roof blow out and still landed safely.
The problem with that is what if the hijacker starts with a knife and takes the guard unexpectedly. Now he has a gun.
Have the guards wear ordinary clothing rather than uniforms.
they do now, they are just not on every plane.
An easy solution is to give pepper spray to the flight attendents. Pilots should also be able to depressurize the cabin. The hijackers would either have to get an O2 mask on (which limits their movement) or pass out. I also think that the door should be re-engineered to both allow for pressure equalization of the cockpit and to keep unwanted people out.
Pepper spray would circulate through the air system and could be a major problem.
So all the pax get knocked out. Big deal. Make sure the pilot has a mask on an we're all okay.
Pepper spray is a skin irritant. I can't see the pilots wearing full face breathing masks.
Worse than being hijacked?
All El Al pilots carry guns, hense, their plans do not get hijacked.
No country that sponsors terrorism would dare allow any of the terrorists to hijack an El Al plane, as they know what Israel's response would be.
That is a chilling statement. It means they don't expect Bush to do anything about this. Recent administrations have just talked and didn't act. Bush struck me as different. He didn't say all that much and seemed very angry. Perhaps the crazy Texan will teach those animals a lesson afterall. We will have to wait and see.
Goes back to the Nixon-Kissinger "Madman Theory" during the 1973 Arab-Israeli War. When the Russians appeared ready to intervene on the side of Egypt, Nixon and Kissinger were able to play up Dick's anti-communist image into sort of a "good cop, bad cop" thing, where Kissinger was able to tell the Russians he didn't know what his boss would do next.
And say what you like about Nixon (and most people don't seem to like that much) but the action suspected by the Soviets fit the image, and they backed off. In dealing with some nations, it's better to be feared than loved.
I totally agree. Many banks have armed guards. Why not airplanes?
Small note on guards. At 40,000 flights per day, and 2 guards per plane, with time off and vacations, would provide 100,000 jobs. However the first time a sky guard used his gun the explosive decompression and following crash just might happen over NY and cause significant damage anyway. And as we all now sometimes guns go off by accident, what then?
Nothing can be perfect. We have to do the best we can. Obviously, the way we have been doing things dosen't work.
On another note, I heard on Channel 2 that Logan Airport had put through a new security system and 600 security badges were stolen. The animals who did this evil deed used some of those security badges to get on the airplane. This leads up to one thing. Security was breached and it was an inside job. Nothing else makes sense except that. I beleive that as the weeks and months go on, we will find out more information how the animals penetrated airport and airline security. Otherwise, I can't understand how 4 airplanes in 3 different airports could be hijacked at the same time.
Do you have a link?
I heard this on TV on Channel 2 in New York, WCBS-TV. Try cbs.com for a link or newsradio88.com.
Guns and Bullets, Guns and Bullets, is that *all* your guards can carry? How about an Asp or an electric prod.
How about "dart" rounds, can carve a nasty hole in someone, but would not likely penetrate the aircraft skin. There is a Foam Mace that is not airbourne, but goes on like a shaving cream in the perp's face. How about ductile missiles.
How many stewards are on an airliner. One or two more crewmen would hardly be noticed.
Some other thoughts include transponder devices that can be activated by crew other than pilots, and cannot be turned off in flight. Once Activated, voice and "black box" data can be transmitted to ground, so that you don't even have to find the plane in order to know what happened.
Elias
Got some good ideas, let's see if any are implemented.
Forget all that, two words: Wesley Snipes
During the 1970s after a series of skyjackings, the FAA instituted a Sky Marshall program, which provided exactly what you're talking about. I don't recall all of the specific details (I had caught some details on the various newscasts), but over time, the program was phased out. I would expect the Federal Government will look at this program again.
AFA El Al goes, I don't think it's the pilots who carry guns, but rather there is a security detail on all El Al flights.
Can I ask you a question? What if he shoots and misses? Ever seen U.S. Marshalls?
Mike
"Mr Mass Transit"
Bomb the Middle East with a Neutron Bomb. Kills all organic matter, doesn't hurt any building. Go over there, laugh at the corpses, and take the oil. 50 cents a gallon at gas pumps. The bastards were laughing in the streets. They deserve it.
The anarchists trashing our cities were laughing at the damage, so lets neutron bomb the cities here next time there's a riot (sarcasm).
A neutron bomb is wrong.Turn everything into a Cherynoble
A lot of military people were killed in the Pentagon. I say it's nuke time.
I KNEW I was in the company of deep thinkers.
As in the deep end of the muck.
-Hank
The Palestions don t have any oil
Or much water, or land that can be farmed. It was all taken from them since 1948 when the world decided that their country should become Israel.
This either reveals your ignorance of history or the fact that you're a lier. Palestine includes Israel and Jordan. 75% of Palestine was given to the Arabs. At first they were planning to call their portion Palestine. But they eventually wound up calling it Jordan. This was done with the hope that people would be fooled into thinking that Palestinian Arab claims in the area were not met. So at the stroke of a pen, a new nationality was created and Arab apologists were given a lie with which to back up their limitless greed and hatred.
Alan Glick
"Or much water, or land that can be farmed. It was all taken from them since 1948 when the world decided that their country should become Israel."
I hope your history isn't as good as your spelling. "Liar" is spelled as I typed it. You spelled it as a brain dead toddler would. Go back to Pre-K before you try to get into political debates, junior. Only big boys here.
Is that the best you can come up with? Looking for typing errors and adding yet more childish insults? (Rhetorical question, we all know the answer is: yes)
Alan Glick
No, I can do alot better. You're just not worth the effort. You can't even spell the word liar, your credibility is gone. Also, going on with you is in vain. I will still bring rational argument and thought. You shall bring ignorant ramblings. Nothing is goung to change. Perhaps SOMEDAY you'll grow up and realize the error of your thinking. But if any other posters get hot headed about retaliation, I won't say anything; most are adults. One day they'll realize that they went overboard. Until then, goodbye.
The histories I have read claim that the Arabs attacked Israel in 1948. Are you saying that it's the other way around?
The Arabs started that war and lost. Don't you realize that the Arabs would have ended up controling everything from the river to the sea by now had they not started that war? All they had to do was sit tight and have babies.
Of course, that would have meant living side by side with a minority comprised of Jews. Horrors!
50 cents a gallon at gas pumps.
Sure, just what we need: An incentive for people to buy more gas-sucking, pollutant-spewing, econobox-mashing SUVs. If the terrorists don't destroy our cities, we'll suffocate ourselves.
Dan
Your statement assumes that all Middle Easterners should be put to death by use of a Neutron Bomb, even thou few, if any of them actually had anything to do with Tuesday's events.
Does that mean we kill innocents, and Israel as well?
Here's a thought: Stop sending MONEY to overseas nations. Use that money for the victim's families and to re-build.
Sure would get more that way.
I would evacuate the Jews in Israel first. Yes. All innocents in that area should die. The same way the innocents here died. And, there would be no retaliation because they would all be dead. They danced in the street while people here died under rubble. They are all the Devil's children over there, so let's do them a favor and send them back to hell. I'm not talking about the Jews in Israel, who have expressed sorrow towards the US. They are good people. But, the Palestinians are of the Devil and should die. And, Arafat can take his sympathy and blood donation and stick it up his mother's *ss, as I'm sure inside he was laughing the whole time. He probably put poison in the blood.
And after we take care of them, lets bomb the folks in Ireland who can't stop arguing about which way to pray to Jesus.
-Hank
Do you really think that's what they're arguing about?
No, but that's my opinion.
-Hank
You're sick!
Arti
From what I've read here,[I HAVE A MUCH MORE PERSONAL STAKE IN THE WTC BOMBING THAN MOST HERE]that hatred runs deep on both sides of the ocean.
Hate is a plague and leads to the terrorism that you and the rest of those who are personnally affected by this act of a few madmen are living with.
AND thats were the shame falls on all of us.Evil appears in many forms.
No, he only wants just retribution against all these enemies of America, against all those who are rejjoicing over this tragedy.
Alan Glick
"You're sick!
Arti"
I don't know if people like you and him really understand what using nuclear weapons means.
Arti
It means destoying an entire city or even country.
Alan Glick
[It means destoying an entire city or even country. ]
And lot of airborne radioactive contamination, not contained by borders.
Arti
It's not sick to feel that way for a while. Actually doing it is something else.
I'm not sure about that. Recent days have given me lot of experience, and of course as probably anyone on this board, have met with people who have lost someone, perhaps a friend or an aquaintance. So far I've not met anyone calling for destruction of a part of world.....
Arti
Foreigners are the root of all evil!
Well said Chief Sitting Duck. I assume you must be of Native American decent lest you be an "evil foreigner." But then, since the so called "Original Americans" MIGRATED (key word) over here across the Siberian land bridge some 20,000 years ago, it makes you not better than us "evil do-ers." Perhaps you'd like to dust off your cape and rid the country of this evil. Oh, and please don't forget your Power Ranger undies, Supes.
You should all take a clue from the Mayor, and the President. Because someone is of a different background makes them no less American. At the last turn of the century it was Irish, Italian, and German hating each other. I would bet that most of the people posting hate mail have at least one of those ethnicities. As has been said by others, we are all immigrants in this land, the only difference is when we arrived.
Let's all stop the hate mail, and do what we can to share information on the purpose of this site, THE SUBWAY!!!
When the President tells us who was responsible, that is the time to focus your anger.
I think he was being ironic.
Sorry for the long post but I wanted to share this, from a Canadian newspaper, with the board.
America: The Good Neighbor.
Widespread but only partial news coverage was given recently to a remarkable editorial broadcast from Toronto by Gordon Sinclair, a Canadian television Commentator. What follows is the full text of his trenchant remarks as printed in the Congressional Record:
"This Canadian thinks it is time to speak up for the Americans as the most generous and possibly the least appreciated people on all the earth. Germany, Japan and, to a lesser extent, Britain and Italy were lifted out of the debris of war by the Americans who poured in billions of dollars and forgave other billions in debts.
None of these countries is today paying even the interest on its remaining debts to the United States. When France was in danger of collapsing in 1956, it was the Americans who propped it up, and their reward was to be insulted and swindled on the streets of Paris. I was there. I saw it.
When earthquakes hit distant cities, it is the United States that hurries in to help. This spring, 59 American communities were flattened by tornadoes. Nobody helped. The Marshall Plan and the Truman Policy pumped billions of dollars into discouraged countries. Now newspapers in those countries are writing about the decadent, warmongering Americans.
I'd like to see just one of those countries that is gloating over the erosion of the United States dollar build its own airplane. Does any other country in the world have a plane to equal the Boeing Jumbo Jet, the Lockheed Tri-Star, or the Douglas DC10?
If so, why don't they fly them? Why do all the International lines except Russia fly American Planes? Why does no other land on earth even consider putting a man or woman on the moon? You talk about Japanese technocracy, and you get radios. You talk about German technocracy, and you get automobiles. You talk about American technocracy, and you find men on the moon - not once, but several times - and safely home again.
You talk about scandals, and the Americans put theirs right in the store window for everybody to look at. Even their draft-dodgers are not pursued and hounded. They are here on our streets, and most of them, unless they are breaking Canadian laws, are getting American dollars from ma and pa at home to spend here.
When the railways of France, Germany and India were breaking down through age, it was the Americans who rebuilt them. When the Pennsylvania Railroad and the New York Central went broke, nobody loaned them an old caboose. Both are still broke.
I can name you 5000 times when the Americans raced to the help of other people in trouble. Can you name me even one time when someone else raced to the Americans in trouble? I don't think there was outside help even during the San Francisco earthquake.
Our neighbors have faced it alone, and I'm one Canadian who is damned tired of hearing them get kicked around. They will come out of this thing with their flag high. And when they do, they are entitled to thumb their nose at the lands that are gloating over their present troubles. I hope Canada is not one of those."
Stand proud, America! Wear it proudly!!
These are the many good things that we have done, what about the training and support we gave Bin Ladin when he was fighting the Russians. Many of the terrorists today are people we (The US) has trained and supported. Terrorism is terrorism no matter who pays for it. Let's stop supporting the future terrorists with CIA funding to destabilize governments we don't agree with.
We are the cause of much of the terrorism now happening. CIA spending gets covered up by those in our government that feel that we are always in the right.
Look at Air America in Laos. Even the President lied about our being there.
We need to stop all terrorism, even that which we support.
What about Air America in Laos?
Nice rant -- though part of it is a non-satirical riff on a satyrical rant about the U.S. by Christopher Guest, from the National Lampoon Radio Hour's Special "Canadian Show," circa January 1974 (If you really want me to, I'll get the tape and transcribe it).
Did you say you found this in a recent newspaper?
This was indeed written by Gordon Sinclair, but he copyrighted it back in 1973.
It was recorded in 1973 on the Westbound Records label in Detroit Michigan by Byron Mac Gregor. Distributed by Janus Records of New York, it was a very popular seller back in the mid 1970's.
I just played the record to compare it to your post, and found that there is more text on the recording. The recording runs 3 min 48 sec.
Byron speaks Sinclair's words over an instrumental background of "America the Beautiful"
Hearing the recording is enough to give you chills or goosebumps.
There are more similar photos at space.com.
That's too massive....
HOLY SHIT!!!
wayne
I wonder If Mircrosoft Terraserver Has Updated Photos?
I think that picture was taken from the International Space Station.
WOW! I'll bet the last time smoke like this was seen from space was the Chicago Fire or when Rome burned down... Or at least some California Wildfires. But never coming from such a concentrated space!
SPECIAL SUBTALK LIVE
WHEN AND IF NYCSUBWAY.ORG GOES DOWN UNTIL IT RETURNSDue to the large amount of traffic on both boards today, this is a reminder for those who have seen this already and is alerting those who didn't because the original is so far down and may have not caught the attention of all.In the event SubTalk, BusTalk, and/or the whole www.nycsubway.org website go down when the power generators run out of fuel, SubTalk Live will be open until the power is restored. Based on David Pirmann's posts, this should be around 9 PM Eastern, tonight. Please note, whenever SubTalk or BusTalk goes down, SubTalk Live is open and an operator will arrive as soon as possible.
As in any Internet forum or chatroom, certain polices and rules need to be created and enforced. SubTalk Live is no exception. The following policies are in effect at all times in the chatroom or when making posts on SubTalk and BusTalk pertaining to the chat:
1. ANY public transit related topic can be discussed (bus, subway, or railroad).
2. It is requested that you use your handle as your chat nickname.
3. OPs will be the sole people in the chat to deem a topic off subject and are the only people who can make announcements on SubTalk and BusTalk pertaining to the opening, closing, delay, cancellation, postponement, software, server, or technical difficulties with the chat. When in doubt over what you are about to do, don't do it! If you have a problem with any of the above issues, e-mail an operator. Please do not post on SubTalk or BusTalk! This also applies to responding to this message. Do not respond to this message unless you are posting a question relevant to SubTalk Live. Do not post announcements pertaining to the chat.
4. Anyone who disrupts the chat in any way (scrolling, profanity, obscene remarks, constant chatting off-topic, or any of the above) will be punted and/or banned from SubTalk Live with or without warning.
ARE YOU READY TO SUBTALK LIVE???
Just go to http://www.subtalklive.com and join in! mIRC users, do your thing!NOTE
It is strongly reccomended you enter the room and troubleshoot BEFORE tonight! If you encounter problems, e-mail an operator, do not post on SubTalk/BusTalk!WE LOOK FORWARD TO SEEING YOU!
PLEASE DO NOT RESPOND TO THIS POST
For an explanation of this request, see the chat policies.
At 54 stories and going over sideways this increases the risk to those involved in the rescue. Unlike the towers it is going over on it's side. This is a domino situation with much more damage likely.
If I were them, although I don't know if this is possible, I'd try to do a controlled implosing like they do with planned demolitions, in order to minimize damage to surrounding buildings. Given the limited time and the potential hazard, it would be hard to do, but hopefully they could take some steps to try to make the building fall on itself, not tip over onto another one.
The thing I hate most is how we keep losing building after building, like the terrorists are getting a sense of achievement as each domino falls and damages another one just enough to fall.
It would take at least a week to prepare the building for an implosion. It would be nice if there was time.
ABC just took back their story at 10 p.m. They said the broken glss apparently created some sort of illusion that it was listing, but structural engineers have checked out the building, said it was OK, and they've moved the WTC morgue back inside.
the latest I heard was they had the wrong building-- it was 5 WTC.
Fox News reported that 4 & 5 WTC have collapsed. 1 Liberty Place is still standing for now, but it's on the verge of collapse.
What about the little hotel behind the WTC - at 3WTC - someone at work told me they heard it was buried by the rubble of 2WTC as it fell.
Wayne
Building 3 was the WTC Marriott. Not a little hotel, 1000 rooms or so. I stayed there 3 times in the last year (a few weeks ago for the last time) as it was a great hotel and only 95.00 a night on priceline.
Per NBC's Brokaw - WTC 3 was damaged yesterday and collapsed today.
I was thinking that it was the building to the right of the live feeds of the area and the cleanup but that must be another building. Anyone know what that red thing is in the center. Looks like a a bridge or something.
By "little" I meant in relationship to the 110-story towers themselves.
That red thing could be what's left of 7WTC, which I've seen has sort of a reddish-brown tint to it. Are you talking about the thing with the clusters of 9 small windows? I think that's the pedestrian overpass over West Street.
wayne
The red thing that looks like a bridge *was* the pedestrian overpass before they stripped the granite off the sides for demolition & removal.
An overpass. Man, that debris goes all the way up to it. Thats alot of stuff to be gone thru. Whats the building just to the right that looks to be in pretty good shape. Looks sortof reddish stone in color. Looks to be about 20 stories high and is right next to all the debris. I thought it was the WTC 3 Marriott.
To the right "west" of the WTC is the World Financial Center, the building where the north bridge (the totally collapsed one) is 3 WFC, American Express & Lehman Brothers. It's 52 stories. I worked in that building for 2 years (and another two years in 4 WFC).
Thanks David - you're doing a great job. Good night and God bless.
OK. It looks liek all 7 of the WTC Buildings are gone or totalled. What bout the WFC Buildings?
Clips from Marriott site:
The New York Marriott World Trade Center and the New York Marriott Financial Center hotels were evacuated in light of the tragic events in New York City.
At this time, we know of only two associates with whom we’ve been unable to make contact. We are working closely with local and national authorities to identify and locate all of the guests and associates who may potentially have been affected by these events.
We are doing everything we can to assist families of guests and associates. We have established a Marriott Assistance Center. The toll-free number is 866-866-9928. This line is for friends and family members concerned about loved ones who may have been affected yesterday.
The World Trade Center Marriott suffered irreparable damage, and the Financial Center Marriott sustained significant damage. At this time, we are unable to speculate about the extent or cost of these damages.
The thoughts and prayers of the associates of Marriott International are with the families and loved ones potentially affected by this tragic event.
Thank you, Dave.
That video shot on the site was chilling and at the same time utterly fascinating. I would think that Ch.7 will be re-broadcasting it over the course of the next day or so.
wayne
Was the Marriott the Vista International Hotel at one time?
...at the NJ TRANSIT press releases web site.
Short version: everything's normal starting 6 am Thursday except lower Manhattan bus service (it's two routes only).
Michael
Does that include HBLR at Exchange Place? It was closed yesterday.
I have a good message board located at my websiteThe Other Side Of The Tracks: A Website Devoted To The New York City Subway. It is a fully functional message board which you do not have to register for. Many subtalkers congregate there already.
Click Here to go to it: www.nycrail.com Message Board
-Harry
According to this article from the BBC website, the pilot on the plane that crashed near Pittsburgh flipped on an intercom so passengers could hear what the hijackers were saying. One of these passengers told his wife by cell phone that "I know we're all going to die - there's three of us who are going to do something about it." They did. They overpowered the hijackers but couldn't control the plane. They didn't save themselves but did save who-knows-what and who knows how many lives.
The Pentagon plane happened too fast. In the case of the two WTC planes the passengers were obviously kept in the dark. They no doubt thoight they'd be flown around for days while the hijackers negotiated for whatever.
According to this article from the BBC website, the pilot on the plane that crashed near Pittsburgh flipped on an intercom so passengers could hear what the hijackers were saying. One of these passengers told his wife by cell phone that "I know we're all going to die - there's three of us who are going to do something about it." They did. They overpowered the hijackers but couldn't control the plane. They didn't save themselves but did save who-knows-what and who knows how many lives.
It's good to know that there still are some heroes in today's society.
If they had to go down, they went down fighting. That's the measure of real men and real heroes.
With cellphone access and information at least about the WTC crashes, if not the Pentagon crash, the passengers on the United jet over Pittsburgh could probably guess their fate. The passengers on the American Airlines jets and probably the first United jet may have thought they would be held hostage on some runway for days with passengers killed off one by one, which was standard terrorist proceedure until Tuesday.
This is exactly why I am less than pleased with the actions of the passengers on the first two planes. There was a VERY good chance that all or some of them would die and they probably knew it. The terrorists were only armed with knives/sharp objects. With no more than 6 hijackers vs 60 passengers (one hijacker even being in the cockpit). It really takes a lot to be stabbed to death the passengers could have EASILY overpowered the hijackers. However, they could only think about themselves and their own lives and as a result they all perished.
When the hijackers don't have guns, you (the passengers) can taunt them. You can rally the other passengers. You CAN be a hero because the terrorists can't just shoot you. You warp your coat around your arms and you rush the guy. You can't stab someone when that someone comes in close and pins your arm. You fashion weapons. Pens, suitcases, purses, soda cans, anything that can be used as a missile, the list goes on. If you get a hold of a hijacker your put out his eyes and cut his throat so that the other hijackers know what's comming. You yell, you scream, you just go crazy. You fight terror with terror.
You're talking out of your rectum, Mike. Put a cork in it.
60 people doesn't mean 60 football players, and you can't really what you'd do until you'reput in the situation.
You're way out of line on this one.
One can never say what one would do in the event of the unimaginable. However, speaking only for myself, I hope I'd have the courage to act as selflessly as those folks.
The passengers on the first two planes can't be blamed for inaction because they almost certainly did not know what was about to happen. They probably thought this was a "typical" hijacking, and that they'd be held for a while as the hijackers' demands were negotiated.
I believe that they would have taken more direct action had they known what was to happen. Thinking otherwise would be disrespectful to their memory.
I was just seeing the issue this way.
Could they have retaken the plane? Yes.
Cost to them? Yes, but probably minimal.
Should they have been aware of the above two facts? Yes.
Where they aware? Who's to say.
Even if they thought it was a "typical" hijacking, should they have fought back? I think so.
The passengers had the oppurtunity to stop the event as did many other people (controlers, security, etc, etc). You can call it blame, but I'm just stating a fact. Hopefully, if something like this ever happens again, the people on board will remember what happened today and will act accordingly. People in groups have an astonishing amout of power and it is something that everyone should take to heart.
Hey Rambo:
>> Yes, but probably minimal. <<
Define "minimal". You make it sound as if every single person alive should immedaiately assume "I'm dead, therefore I shall strike out and become a hero".
You really should think before you post.
=Rednoise
(NewQirQ)
,i>Define "minimal". You make it sound as if every single person alive should immedaiately assume "I'm dead, therefore I shall strike out and become a hero".
That is EXACTLY what I think. Terrorism today is war in which we all are soldiers and in the time of crisis we must all do out duty. We can defeat terrorism by refusing to be terrorized. Hopefully this event will change our national mindset.
Well, aisles in planes are cramped.
Are you sure you can fight a trained fighter/terrorist under such
limited conditons?
Maybe somebody did. And lost his/her life.
And as everybody mentions, who knew the plans?
Airlines companies' drill suggests the passengers to
obey the highjackers.
Ever been mugged in City streets?
What would you do? Fight back without a weapon?
Do you have any children? Wife? Girlfriend? People in need of
your presence?
I don't think it's as simple as you think...
People on the Pittsburgh plane knew they were going to die anyway.
It is different.
May PEACE prevail once again in this mourning Big Apple.
Well, in "Traditonal" hijackings, most passengers and crew wound up unhurt. It really was the most sensible thing not to be a hero. It was quite logical, really, for the people to be passive- like someone else here said, they'd be flown from place to place while the hijackers settled for their own escape.
By the time of the 4th plane, however, the folks knew what was going on, thanks to cell phones. I can't say I EXPECTED them to what they did, but I'm greateful to them, and hope I'd have the courage to act the same way in the same situation.
Let's also remember the civilians who tackled Colin Ferguson in 1993.....
OK. The pilot and co-pilot have both been stabbed and are dead or dying. Some terrorist is flying the plane. You and your 60 of your favorite suit covered anuses stab him. Then what? Pull the manual out of the glove compartment?
Let the innocent rest in peace without your Monday morning quarterbacking.
your favorite suit covered anuses
That's my line!
Be generous. In view of the national emergency forego your royalty.
However, you could consider trademark infringement.
It was done in your honor. In the future, I will refer to suit-covered anuses (tm)
CG
It was done in your honor. In the future, I will refer to suit-covered anuses (tm)
That will be fine. I'll just ask for a royalty fee of $25 each. That's per use, not per anus ...
Your post was, in my opinion, the single most reprehensible thing I have ever read on this site.
No one --NO ONE-- can guarantee what they "would do" or "would have done" if they were in that situation. No one can know until they *are* in that situation.
20-20 hindsight is a wonderful thing, I guess.
You dishonor everyone who has perished with your irresponsible rant.
=Rednoise
(NewQirQ)
When you are scared shi***es do you really think about overpowering
anyone? Many people we calling their loved ones , "saying good-by"!!!
Chuck Greene
I just wanted to tip my hat to the people of the 4th plane. They are true American heros and it gives me hope regarding the citenzery of this country. They risked and ultimately gave their lives so that total strangers might live and that is the greatest thing a human being can ever do. I hope those brave passengers recieve the recognition they deserve and serve as an example to other passengers should this happen again.
I know that yesterday's tragedy has sent a chill through the hearts of all Americans. Like everyone, I'm shocked and frightenned and deeply angered by the attack. However, I do want to point out a silver lining within the cloud. Namely, that New Yorkers have come through beautifully.
In an event like this one we could have easily expected all kinds of chaos on the streets: riots, looting, racially motived violence. There may have been some small incidents, but the vast, overwhelming majority of New Yorkers have conducted themselves beautifully. I was in Manhattan yesterday, and I saw people behaving with the best of decorum.
In short, we always were a special place, and we still are, and always will be. We will get through this tragedy.
Andrew "MisterK" Kirschner
The horrible loss of the WTC has brought back a lot of memories. One of the most enduring is getting off the PATH train at the terminal, and seeing a HUGE horde of people empty the train, and hit the escalators, almost all of them heading up to the mall level or the street. Just standing there and trying to decide which subway line will get me to my destination, surrounded by all of the hustle and bustle, was an exciting sight. Also going out on to Church St, waiting for the M6 and seeing the Twin Towers was an imposing sight.
Ironically, I was in the WTC on Saturday. I had just got off the PATH, and I was trying to decide how to get to Downtown Brooklyn. I was there for the Hoboken Festival, and Ihoped to get to the Transit Museum to see the old buses displayed there. But alas, the museum was closed and the buses weren't there.
The events of Tuesday has left me with a HUGE sense of sadness and loss. On occasion I have shed tears for the all of the people killed there, and the idea that this imposing sight is NO MORE.
Now we must do this one important thing to show those bastards that they did not win this war. WE MUST REBUILD THE WTC!!!!! Make it as big as before and better than ever. Let everybody know that this attack will not stand, and we'll be back in the same place as defiant as ever. We must not forget the many thousands of victims who lost their lives in the attack, but WE MUST NEVER GIVE IN!!!! BUILDING A NEW WTC IN THE SAME PLACE IS A SIGN OF NO SURRENDER TO ANY TYPE OF TERRORISM. YOU BASTARDS WON A BATTLE, BUT YOU WILL NEVER WIN THE WAR!!!
I was there about two months ago. I remember the view from the top. Standing on the roof of the most beautiful city in the world. I stood by a window on the 107th floor and looked 1300 feet straight down to the New York streets, amazed by man's ability to create such a dominating structure.
Looking at it from the street, each tower reaching higher to heaven than any other structure I've ever seen in person.
Watching those planes slice through the building like fiery knives from the belly of hell cut right through my heart as well. A part of me crumbled into dust along with those monoliths.
No one whose ever been there can forget the experience.
Now we must do this one important thing to show those bastards that they did not win this war. WE MUST REBUILD THE WTC!!!!! Make it as big as before and better than ever. Let everybody know that this attack will not stand, and we'll be back in the same place as defiant as ever. We must not forget the many thousands of victims who lost their lives in the attack, but WE MUST NEVER GIVE IN!!!! BUILDING A NEW WTC IN THE SAME PLACE IS A SIGN OF NO SURRENDER TO ANY TYPE OF TERRORISM. YOU BASTARDS WON A BATTLE, BUT YOU WILL NEVER WIN THE WAR!!!
I fully agree - so long as the new buildings go up very, very quickly. None of this diddling around for years. If that means special state and/or federal legislation to cut the red tape, so be it.
The World Trade Center towers were the first parts of New York City I ever saw. It was my very first visit to the city, and I was flying into LaGuardia from O'Hare. We flew over NJ, and then turned north right around Ellis Island. Coming down out of the clouds while flying northward above the Hudson River, the Trade Center towers were the first NYC landmarks that appeared in our windows. The sight was breathtaking, and we continued all the way up Manhattan and over the Bronx before circling around and landing at LGA. Later that weekend, I took a walk across the Brooklyn Bridge, stopped at the Borders bookstore in the Trade Center, and then went up to the top of WTC2 before walking the rest of the way up to the Upper West Side.
I've visited the Trade Center a couple times on subsequent trips, and lower Manhattan was one of my favorite areas of the city to explore. But that very first visit will always stick in my mind.
-- David
Chicago, IL
The WTC was just closed buildings slated for demolition when I left in 1966. In 1977 on Vacation back to NYC I saw the twin towers for the first time around exit 4,5, or 6 of the turnpike. I went up to the top then and in 1983 went to the roof. I did go back up since 1994--I think in 1999.
The WTC will libe in my heart for now and will rise like the mythical bird- the Phoenix. Atlanta's motto is Resurgens and the WT will rise from the ashes.
We will survive!
I remember when the Twin Towers were being built. They rose slowly, floor by floor, before finally topping out. I went up to the observatory for the first time during my last visit to the city before leaving for Colorado 21 years ago. Since then I've been up on the roof several times to take photos, including a telephoto shot of the upper floors of the Empire State Building. Hard to believe it's all gone now.
I don't work in New York City, but I DO travel in about once a month to railfan and take pictures. It seems to me that just about every trip I've ever made to the City has taken me through or near the World Trade Centre. When I smoked, I would make my pit stop and smoke stop there - I would go out to the north side of 5 WTC along Vesey Street to smoke. That's all gone now. My first trip to the area was when the old Hudson Terminal was in the process of being reduced. We went from Hudson Terminal to Newark on PATH, December 27, 1969 on a PATH train of classic "K" class cars. I went through WTC on August 23 en route to my Newark Subway field trip. There is an "apple crate" set of sink buddies (soap dispenser, soap pad holder, trivet, etc.) I bought for Rosemary at Lechter's in the WTC Mall. All gone. The Sbarro's there - I ate there numerous times. GONE. Even that scuzzy bathroom where I took my relief - GONE. Rosemary has some clothes and things I bought for her back in 1978 at the (then) Two Guys store. Two Guys is long gone, but now the whole mall is gone.
Does anyone know what the state of affairs is down at the PATH track level - i.e. has anyone gotten down there?
These are black days.
wayne
"Does anyone know what the state of affairs is down at the PATH track level - i.e. has anyone gotten down there?"
It has been reported here that there seems to be some flooding at track level. Most likely caused by ruptured water pipes.
Bill "Newkirk"
gee i remember that area well !! not just last year october 2000 last time i was in nyc !!!
( sigh )........... man its all gone now !!
the path website says no service to WTC ...
Back in my single days, one of my featured places for first dates was the Hors d'oeuvery (or something like that) just below Windows on the World restaurant. Got the same view for half the price. Those buildings were viewable from JFK. Amazing that they're gone. Newsday has a picture from last year and this year of the same scene shown from Brooklyn. It's as if someone airbrushed it out.
That's the spirit!
Seriously, now- let your elected officials know. Write the Mayor at City Hall (NY NY 10007). Write the Governor.
I have already done so.
4/5/6 now end at Grand Central. Shuttle from Atlantic to New Lots. Yes- even the 6 ends at Grand Central. That leaves 6 av service to W 4 as the easternmost line South of 42
4/5/6 now end at Grand Central. Shuttle from Atlantic to New Lots. Yes- even the 6 ends at Grand Central. That leaves 6 av service to W 4 as the easternmost line South of 42
Why can't the 4/5/6 run south to 14th? Is it too hard to switch directions there?
dont know- just said what MTA said. BTW- 5 ends at 149.
There are no switches from SB to NB at 14th St.
But Broadway is the easternmost line south of 34th.
The F is making all stops in Manhattan. So is the A when it's running on the F.
The W and Q are stopping at Prince and running nonstop from there to DeKalb or Pacific (or vice versa).
Correction: The Q/W is not stopping at Prince. It is stopping at 8th, bypassing Prince and Canal, and running over the bridge.
Are you even reading what you are typing?! I've NEVER in my life seen such racist, xenophobic propaganda! It's as if you all have gone insane! It's safe to say everyone here would hope that the hijackers are burning in hell, but to want to bomb the whole Middle East for the actions of a few?! That's outright pathetic!
It's easy to attack a race or people you're not a part of.
What if a group of insane Jews did this. Would you want Israel bombed? Would half of you all be saying anything at all?
What if a group of mentally deranged Italians did this? Would you say, "BOMB ITALY!!!!" Of course not! More than half of you all would clam up!
What if a group of crazy African-Americans did this?! Would you say Bomb Africa! Deport the blacks! I bet none of you would in fear of being labled a hateful racist bastard.
Hell, what if a group of white-collared caucasiosn did this! Would you say "Bomb America!!!!" Of course not!
But, it's the "Arab Bastards!" You know, the attitudes expressed here are pathetic. This board has degenerated from a community of social respect into a cesspool of hatred and ignorance. This is truly sad. If a this happened in China, you all wouldn'tve given thos "Arab Bastards" a second thought. You'd just say, "Probably Bin Laden" and go on arguing about TA management and what not.
Yeah, this is America and I hate it just as much as you all, but that doesn't justify your racist attitudes. Itr makes you all no better than the Palestenians dancing in the streets showing their asses to the collective world.
And if you hate what I said, I don't give a flying fuck. The truth hurts. This tragedy hurts. AMERICA HURTS!!!!! Even the "Arab Bastards" who are living in America as law-biding citizens. AMERICANS!!!!!! WAKE UP!!!!!!!!!!!!
Yes some people are going overboard, but people are venting.
Americans vent and bluster in rsponse to unimaginable horrors.
It would be better if people in some other countries vented more and took revenge against anonymous people who never did them any harm less.
So "venting" is wanting to bomb an entire region, INCLUDING OUR OWN ALLIES!!!!!!!
Yep, some genius (or geniuses) said it would be nice if a Neutron Bomb wiped out the entire middle east. Mmmm, isn't Israel, our ALLY, over there.
The bodies aren't even cold yet.
In other countries people riot and kill over religious differences, perceived insults and centuries-old grievances. We hear daily about how people are entitled to their anger, entitled to their rage.
Americans are obviously entitled to nothing against the greatest provocation, even words.
What's your ethnicity?
What's yours?
If you look at my posts, you will not find me raging against Arabs or anyone else. I have not suggested killing or harming anyone. But I am suspicious of people who are raging against people's anger at such an early stage after such a horrific event.
Yassir Afarat managed to be stunned by this event without having to qualify his statement.
If anyone acts on these feelings that is another thing entirely.
I hope that all of todays subtalk post make it they will be good to look at 50 years from now
I'm african-american.
As for raging on the Arabs, I never said you were. I'm saying that if YOUR ethnicty was recieving this verbal bashing I don't belivee you'd just sit back and say, "At least it's just words." Words are powerful tools.
Put that way, I agree with you.
What you are saying is that if people's own ethnicities were bashed, they would react to the unfairness of it. For certain.
But I'm also old enough to know that, in the past, perfectly loyal Americans had to deal with questions of loyalty in situations which didn't strike so close to home. Back in the '60s my Italian girlfriend's father told me about Italian groups that marched on Ocean Parkway in Brooklyn in support of Mussolini and how this became an embarassment. An ethnically German coworker a few years later told me of his family being visited by the FBI in WWII because an uncle had been a member of the Bund.
But in both these cases, they (and their respective communities) made it clear to their friends and neighbors that, once the war begun, they were Americans first. This may have been terribly unfair that they had to prove this, but it was important.
But to bring this up to the present. I take it by your handle that you live in Houston? I live on Long Island. All last night helicopters and fighter planes were flying over my home. At the schoolbus stops we see children out of school--some of whose parents are now missing. We have a lot of city cops and firefighters in our area. This is immediate. This is now.
I was trying to convey a psychological truth. People are very angry. They want to strike out at something. After the trial of Colin Ferguson, who murdered or injured dozens of people on the Long Island Rail Road, the victims or their survivors were allowed to express their anger at a pre-sentencing hearing. The radical (and openly Communist) attorney Ron Kuby, who (along with the late William Kunstler) tried to defend him, essentially blamed society for the crime, but as to the victim's venting, simply said that they were entitled.
I understand. I never said they didn't have a right to be angry, but please, don't be angry at the wrong people.
The bodies aren't even cold yet.
In other countries people riot and kill over religious differences, perceived insults and centuries-old grievances. We hear daily about how people are entitled to their anger, entitled to their rage.
Americans are obviously entitled to nothing against the greatest provocation, even words.
Everyone is entitled to express their rage, but not by going off and killing those who are perceived to be our enemies. Take a good listen to our leaders, most of whom are saying we don't know who did this. We should wait for our government to determine responsibility for the attacks, then take action. At the same time we need to evaluate which of these people we trained in the first place. Then we should look at our own responsibility in these acts.
The US is perceived by many third world countries as being the opressors. We need to turn around our own actions, then maybe there would be far fewer terrorists, with many fewer weopons to turn against us.
Everyone is entitled to freedom! Both to express themselves, and to live without fear of starvation or death due to politics or religion!!
My point is that I have been amazed at the restraint that people have shown so far. I don't know if this will last. Can you tell me any other country in the world in which something so horrible has happened and people have not been rioting in the streets? Don't you think it's possible that verbal excesses prevent people (at least normal people) from doing much more terrible things?
Of course, it's America's fault. Let's stop being America. This way people like Bin Laden will like us.
This is either the belief of a sick mind or an evil mind.
Alan Glick
"The US is perceived by many third world countries as being the opressors. We need to turn around our own actions, then maybe there would be far fewer terrorists, with many fewer weopons to turn against us."
>>>This is either the belief of a sick mind or an evil mind.<<<
Since it came from your mind I'm inclined to agree.
Are you kidding? You have no concept of what is really going on. These Islamic countries believe, (and the Koran states this) that all nonmuslims are infidels who if will not convert, must be killed. That is their holy war or jihad. That is why there will never be peace between the Arabs and Israel. Just the fact that there is a Jewish country in their midsts is more than they can stand. They hate all Jews and they hate all Christians. People have to understand this. I don't care what the liberal popular opinon is but there are no innocent "Palestinians". (By the way, before 1948, the Palestianian were Jews) Every child is a potential terrorist or suicide bomber. This has become their culture. Look at the devistation in our city. Look at it. These "people" were celebrating in the street, filled with glee at all the death and destruction. Yes we need to get a hold of ourselves. We are at war. Like it or not, that is reality. Kill or be killed. If a mugger is attacking you with a knife, you don't stand by passivly. You defend yourself and if you have to kill to save yourself, that is what you do.
I haven't read the Koran and I suspect you haven't either. I have read a fair amount of history, however, and have to tell you that your opinion of the causes of current Arab political attitudes is inconsistent with what has come before. Books could be (and have been) written on this subject. Suffice it to say that the traditional Muslim position has been that Jews and Christians are "peoples of the Book," not infidels. That gave them a place (as more or less "second class citizens") in early Islamic society. I believe (and it's only my opinion) that current Arab attitudes towards Jews, Christians, Americans, Europeans, etc. are more the product of such things as the Crusades, the position of the Jews under the Ottomans when the latter ruled the Arab world (from about 1500 to WWI, and the European colonial history in North Africa and in former Ottoman lands.
You may find it interesting to contrast current attitudes with those 500 years ago, when the Muslim Ottoman Turks gave refuge to large numbers of Sefardic Jews when they were forced to flee Christian Spain. Substantial Ladino speaking communities existed in the Balkans and what is now Greece until they were essentially wiped out 55 to 60 years ago by people who claimed to be Christians. In short, I don't see any more religious content in current Arab attitudes than I do in the troubles in Ireland. In both cases, religion is a merely a pre-text for the preaching of evil by evil men.
Thank you for your post; I completely agree with you.
Seth
Yes.
-Hank
In any of these cases, if the vast majority of these populations aided and applauded the actions of the few then we would say YES. What you Arab apologists want us to forget is the fact that the overwhelming majority of Arabs are dancing over this nightmare. Either publically in the streets of Arab countries, or privately in their hearts elsewhere. You lyingly try to hide this fact, and then have the audacity to tell the rest of us to wake up?
Alan Glick
"What if a group of insane Jews did this. Would you want Israel bombed? Would half of you all be saying anything at all?
What if a group of mentally deranged Italians did this? Would you say, "BOMB ITALY!!!!" Of course not! More than half of you all would clam up!
What if a group of crazy African-Americans did this?! Would you say Bomb Africa! Deport the blacks! I bet none of you would in fear of being labled a hateful racist bastard.
Hell, what if a group of white-collared caucasiosn did this! Would you say "Bomb America!!!!" Of course not!"
"What you Arab apologists want us to forget is the fact that the overwhelming majority of Arabs are dancing over this
nightmare. Either publically in the streets of Arab countries, or privately in their hearts elsewhere."
Gimme a break. You're telepathic now? Omniscient? If you can back your statements up, more power to you; if not, you're a horrific racist.
Seth
Give us a link that shows this. I have seen nothing to indicate this information anywhere.
If you spent more time in front of your TV and less in front of your computer, you might catch a clip of it on the news. Indeed, there was a report that their have been threats made PLO against various western jounalists who were reporting on the Palestinian celebrations.
The following, for example, is a Reuters report from AOL:
JERUSALEM, Sept 13 (Reuters) - The Israel Foreign Press Association (FPA) accused Palestinian officials on Thursday of harassing journalists and failing to stop gunmen from trying to suppress coverage of Palestinians celebrating terror attacks in the United States.
The FPA urged the Palestinian Authority to ensure freedom of the press and to prevent threats being made against journalists which were tantamount to censorship.
The Authority denied the accusations of harassment, which centred on celebrations by hundreds of Palestinians who handed out sweets and fired guns in the air on Tuesday in the West Bank city of Nablus.
"The FPA expresses deep concern over the harassment of journalists by the Palestinian Authority as police forces and armed gunmen tried to prevent photo and video coverage of Tuesday's rally in Nablus where hundreds of Palestinians celebrated the terror attacks in N.Y. (New York) and Washington," the FPA said in a statement.
"We strongly condemn the direct threats made against local videographers by local militia members and the attitude of Palestinian officials who made no effort to counter the threats, control the situation, or to guarantee the safety of the journalists and the freedom of the press," it said.
The FPA said it held the Palestinian Authority responsible for the safety of all journalists working in areas it controls.
Asked by telephone about the allegations of harassment, Palestinian Information Minister Yasser Abed Rabbo said: "We deny that."
He also denied there had been celebrations in Nablus and added: "If it took place it was by a very few people and it does not reflect Palestinian opinion."
A Reuters reporter saw hundreds of people celebrating in the streets of Nablus after the terror attacks which levelled the twin towers of the World Trade Center in New York City and struck the Pentagon in Washington.
The revellers handed out sweets. Cars lining the square honked their horns and gunmen fired into the air from assault rifles in celebration.
A few dozen people also celebrated in Arab East Jerusalem, although Palestinian President Yasser Arafat condemned the attacks.
Many Palestinians are angered over what they see as U.S. support for Israel in its fight against a one-year-old Palestinian uprising.
Palestinian lawmaker Hanan Ashrawi told a news conference on Wednesday the celebrations were "misguided" and "aberrations" motivated by a feeling among Palestinians that they have been victims of U.S. backing for Israel.
09:09 09-13-01
Copyright 2001 Reuters Limited. All rights reserved. Republication or redistribution of Reuters content, including by framing or similar means, is expressly prohibited without the prior written consent of Reuters. Reuters shall not be liable for any errors or delays in the content, or for any actions taken in reliance thereon. All active hyperlinks have been inserted by AOL.
The Associated Press has also filed a complaint that a video camerman for their broadcast division was threatened by Palestinian groups after videotaping celebrations of the bombings. If anyone thinks that's also BS, go up to Rockefeller Center and argue it out with the heads of the news agency.
I'm just knowledgable about events in the Middle East. This comes from years of following events without engaging in wishful thinking or Arab apolegetics.
Alan Glick
"Gimme a break. You're telepathic now? Omniscient? If you can back your statements up, more power to you; if not, you're a horrific racist.
Seth"
Give us a link! Many others who are knowledgable about the middle east are saying the opposite!
No facts.....no dice......
Seth
It is fortunate that Mr. Glick is not a member of our government. Measured controlled response to terrorism is the only way to not be a terrorist yourself.
It fortunate that your type are not members of our government. When an act of WAR is committed against our country we have the right to destroy the attackers. You will soon find out that our government is indeed filled with patriotic pro-Americans of both parties who, like myself, will not rest till the entities who brought about this attack are eliminated from the face of the earth.
Alan Glick
"It is fortunate that Mr. Glick is not a member of our government. Measured controlled response to terrorism is the only way to not be a terrorist yourself."
You want a "measured" response? You mean kill 10,000 of them instead of 100,000?
Read the papers watch the news.
Alan Glick
This is from my original post......
>>>Yeah, this is America and I hate it just as much as you all, but that doesn't justify your racist attitudes. Itr makes you all no better than the Palestenians dancing in the streets showing their asses to the collective world.<<<
Exactly what am I hiding? Arab apologists? Have you seen any apology from me on the behalf of them? If you have, please show it. Perhaps you should get off the computer Mr. McCarthy and check yourself into the nearest mental institution before you do something horrific. You're as fanatical as the terrorists themselves.
Yes, when you lie by claiming this horrible act was not aided and applauded by the many.
Alan Glick
"Have you seen any apology from me on the behalf of them? [emotive rant snipped]"
I'm beginning to have serious doubts about your literary skills. This my ENTIRE post. READ IT. Twice if necessary.
>>>Are you even reading what you are typing?! I've NEVER in my life seen such racist, xenophobic propaganda! It's as if you all have gone insane! It's safe to say everyone here would hope that the hijackers are burning in hell, but to want to bomb the whole Middle East for the actions of a few?! That's outright pathetic!
It's easy to attack a race or people you're not a part of.
What if a group of insane Jews did this. Would you want Israel bombed? Would half of you all be saying anything at all?
What if a group of mentally deranged Italians did this? Would you say, "BOMB ITALY!!!!" Of course not! More than half of you all would clam up!
What if a group of crazy African-Americans did this?! Would you say Bomb Africa! Deport the blacks! I bet none of you would in fear of being labled a hateful racist bastard.
Hell, what if a group of white-collared caucasiosn did this! Would you say "Bomb America!!!!" Of course not!
But, it's the "Arab Bastards!" You know, the attitudes expressed here are pathetic. This board has degenerated from a community of social respect into a cesspool of hatred and ignorance. This is truly sad. If a this happened in China, you all wouldn'tve given thos "Arab Bastards" a second thought. You'd just say, "Probably Bin Laden" and go on arguing about TA management and what not.
Yeah, this is America and I hate it just as much as you all, but that doesn't justify your racist attitudes. Itr makes you all no better than the Palestenians dancing in the streets showing their asses to the collective world.
And if you hate what I said, I don't give a flying fuck. The truth hurts. This tragedy hurts. AMERICA HURTS!!!!! Even the "Arab Bastards" who are living in America as law-biding citizens. AMERICANS!!!!!! WAKE UP!!!!!!!!!!!!<<<
Never did I mention any exact number of people celebrating, I just mentioned that there were celebrations. I see your stupidity, but I don't see any lies on my part.
You implied that the Arabs celebrating were in the minority. You must indeed think we're all stupid enough not to see you evading the facts.
Alan Glick
"Never did I mention any exact number of people celebrating, I just mentioned that there were celebrations. I see your stupidity, but I don't see any lies on my part."
Give me the quote.
Not that it will do any good but read message your #263792 where you asked
"what if a "group" of "As" did such a thing. Should we punish all "A's"
The implication was clear. The facts are the opposite of your claim.
Alan Glick
Um, whatever that meant. Anyhoo Mr. Clinton, I'm relieved that you can grasp the concept of "is" and "as" and other two letter words. But, can you give me these so called "implications" in the form of a quote? Oooops! You can't?! Thought so. I guess it's just more lunatic ravings from our resident Sen. McCarthy Alan Prick.
I've already done so on more than one occasion. You obviously don't want to admit what you posted. I can understand that. BUt you've got to understand that on one will be fooled by your evasions.
Alan Glick
"...can you give me these so called "implications" in the form of a quote?"
Remember the story of Sodom and Gomorrah (sp)?
Seth
Yes. As the story is told, all of them were guilty. Is that your point?
But until all of them were guilty, they were spared.
Seth
It would be intresting to here what these people really think. Our news reports the bad things, but tends to minimize reporting the good things as not relevant.
If you'd been paying attention to the history of the area during the last decades you woulnd't have to wonder (or spread this lie.)
Alan Glick
"It would be intresting to here what these people really think. Our news reports the bad things, but tends to minimize reporting the good things as not relevant."
I can tell you must have benn raised there, your knowledge exceeds our Governments.
Hell, the exhaulted Mr. Prick MUST be Allah. He knows what all of the Muslims think. He knows the history. Hell, why is he wasting his time here!? Mr. Prick, go, go! The country needs you!
Even though I disagree strongly with Alan Glick he is still entitled to HIS opinion just like the rest of us. I am glad to see so many disagree with him though.
His name is Glick, fool
Prick? That's what I said.
I think he is really one them. I can hear is tone from his posts and responses.
Venting a bit is healthy...normal even. so long as eventually you think through the irrationality of the 'let's go kill everyone' emotion and begin getting back to some sort of constructive energy. all the anger can easily be channeled into something productive. helping people. helping each other... getting this damned world in order in the long run...
Yes!!!!
I saw this man as I was walking home from a Chinese food restaurant. He was talking to a Muslim woman wearing traditional clothing. He did say some mean things towards her, which I will not repeat here. I had a friend in JHS who was Muslim. We were good friends. Can't we all just get along?
Some real comman sense!
At times like these, common sense is not common. I won't be surprised of the posses, vigilantes, and lynch mobs come out soon looking for anyone looking like an Arabs.
Those maniacs who flew those jets into the Twin Towers two days ago thought that this would bring attention and action to the current situation in the Middle East. Instead, and in all likelihood, it will bring total destruction upon the very people they thought they were helping. Not a great leap forward, was it?
I always feared what an earthquake would do to NYC. And after the fiery, smoky collapse of the twin towers, that Lower Manhattan area has probably had major structural damage. According to geologists, the collapse measured near a 3 on the richter scale. With many buildings damaged or near collapse, such as LIberty Street, Mariott, and others, those whole downtown is a mess, which is what I've feared the most. The ground if soft in the area and buildings aren't that stable. The damage could extend into Chinatown. It's like a war and earthquake hit at the same time. Easily all the buildings of WTC are gone. Subways won't be in lower Manhattan for quite some time. Out here Szechuan express is still closed, and a worker in another Glen Cove chinese resteruant shook his head when I asked him how Chinatown was.
A major part of NYC is gone. The loss right now is just unspeakable. And for those trapped or looking for loved ones, God speed for their safe return. And with the Subtalk server in the downtown area and on emergency power, we do not expect it to hold up much longer. Please use the alternate sites that many have posted. May God bless America.
> near a 3 on the richter scale
Just a bit of Southern California perspective here - earthquakes out there don't usually start causing damage until 6, and all the big ones are at least 7. The Richter scale is logarithmic, so a 7 is a full 10,000 times more intense than a 3.
Put another way, a magnitude 3 is about as much vibration as a tractor-trailer passing nearby. Even without LA's building codes, I don't think such a quake is any danger to NYC buildings.
And if power doesn't come back on at Subtalk it will go out. Feel free to visit my Yahoo messsage board at clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/railsandtrains
SPECIAL SUBTALK LIVE
WHEN AND IF NYCSUBWAY.ORG GOES DOWN
SUBTALK LIVE WILL REMAIN OPEN 27/7 UNTIL NYCSUBWAY.ORG RETURNSThis is a final reminder and announcement alerting all SubTalkers and BusTalkers that when nycsubway.org's server goes down which could happen within the hour, SubTalk Live will open for 24 hour operation until the site is put back online. You are cordially invited to enjoy all the benefits of SubTalk during that time. If you wish to have e-mail notification of large numbers of people in the room, e-mail WMATAGMOAGH@subtalklive.com.In the event SubTalk, BusTalk, and/or the whole www.nycsubway.org website go down when the power generators run out of fuel, SubTalk Live will be open until the power is restored. Based on David Pirmann's posts, this should be around 9 PM Eastern, tonight. Please note, whenever SubTalk or BusTalk goes down, SubTalk Live is open and an operator will arrive as soon as possible.
As in any Internet forum or chatroom, certain polices and rules need to be created and enforced. SubTalk Live is no exception. The following policies are in effect at all times in the chatroom or when making posts on SubTalk and BusTalk pertaining to the chat:
1. ANY public transit related topic can be discussed (bus, subway, or railroad).
2. It is requested that you use your handle as your chat nickname.
3. OPs will be the sole people in the chat to deem a topic off subject and are the only people who can make announcements on SubTalk and BusTalk pertaining to the opening, closing, delay, cancellation, postponement, software, server, or technical difficulties with the chat. When in doubt over what you are about to do, don't do it! If you have a problem with any of the above issues, e-mail an operator. Please do not post on SubTalk or BusTalk! This also applies to responding to this message. Do not respond to this message unless you are posting a question relevant to SubTalk Live. Do not post announcements pertaining to the chat.
4. Anyone who disrupts the chat in any way (scrolling, profanity, obscene remarks, constant chatting off-topic, or any of the above) will be punted and/or banned from SubTalk Live with or without warning.
ARE YOU READY TO SUBTALK LIVE???
Just go to http://www.subtalklive.com and join in! mIRC users, do your thing!NOTE
It is strongly reccomended you enter the room and troubleshoot BEFORE tonight! If you encounter problems, e-mail an operator, do not post on SubTalk/BusTalk!WE LOOK FORWARD TO SEEING YOU!
PLEASE DO NOT RESPOND TO THIS POST
For an explanation of this request, see the chat policies.
Earlier today, NATO evoked Chapter V of their charter. This attack on the United States is now considered an act of war against the other 19 NATO nations. Also, Armed Forces recruitment offices around the US are reporting a massive increase in the number of enlistments.
God help us all.
-- David
Chicago, IL
Also, Armed Forces recruitment offices around the US are reporting a massive increase in the number of enlistments.
I haven't been able to reach my older son since yesterday noontime... he may have gone and signed up, since he had already been considering that option anyway (he's dropped out of college AGAIN).
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
...apparently.
It would seem that the United States has expressed its "deepest concerns" to the leaders of the government of Afghanistan, and they -- not wanting to meet their maker anytime soon -- have taken at least the first step, according to an Arabic nws service:
Bin Laden under house arrest: report
Afghanistan's ruling Taliban militia had placed alleged terrorist mastermind Osama bin Laden under house arrest in the wake of the suicide attacks on the United States, an Arabic online newspaper reported.
Quoting "fundamentalist Arab sources", Ilaf said the "Taliban have arrested Osama bin Laden before placing him under surveillance with several of his assistants," including the head of the Egyptian branch of Al-Jihad Ayman Al-Zawahri and bin Laden's military commander, Muhammad Atef Al-Makni.
"A number of Afghan fighters are under house arrest along with bin Laden," said the report late Wednesday.
But a diplomat at the Taliban's embassy in Abu Dhabi said he could not confirm the report.
"All we know is that he (bin Laden) is somewhere in Afghanistan, but we are not aware if he is under house arrest," the diplomat said.
Bin Laden and commander Atef have been indicted for the 1998 bombings of the US embassies in Kenya and Tanzania.
Bin Laden has emerged as the prime suspects in yesterday's kamikaze hijacked passenger jet strikes on New York and Washington.
A first step, if true. But if the Taliban tries to tell the U.S. "Don't worry, we'll take care of it," and promise to be real strict with Osama and send him to his room early with no cookies and milk, they're still going to get their asses bombed.
Can you give a link?
Seth
That's the whole story, so far, but here's the link:
Bin Laden Under House Arrest
Some other Taliban officials have denied that, unfortunately. (Newsday today).
In the many posts today there have been both people who condone violence, and people who recommend thought and finding those truly responsible. I want to say to all of you that freedom is a responsibility as well as a right. We all need to pull together to overcome this tragedy. Thank you to all who have expressed themselves here.
My postings are opinions, which freedom guarenties to those of us lucky enough to be in those countries that uphold freedom.
Let's not let the actions of a few overcome our sense of right. It is what has made us great, and I pray will continue to make us strong.
Have you given any thought to what will happen after we find them? For most people, it is not a question of being in favor of or opposed to violence. It is a question of violence now or violence later. The military is institutionalized violence. The courts are institutionalized violence. There will be violence. In one form or another. Depend on it. It's just a question of deciding on a target list.
The point is the right to express ourselves.
If we kill 5000 innocent people to get the people responsible, we are no different then those who committed this violence.
Again, this is my opinion.
Today was very quiet out at O'Hare, literally. I make my living from airport noise, and O'Hare was completely silent. It was spooky.
After work, I headed downtown to try to donate blood at Northwestern Hospital. However, so many people were standing in line, also to donate blood, that people were being turned away due to lack of capacity. Chicagoans are stunned, and Chicagoans want to help.
So I drove around downtown a little bit just to see what's up. It was busier than yesterday, but still more quiet than normal. In some ways it was business as usual, but there were differences. There was a massive police presence, with at least 2-3 cops on most downtown intersections. Illegally parked cars were being aggressively towed.
And the flags. American flags are appearing all over the city, thousands of them. Large and small. Sometime yesterday, two young Hispanic men quietly walked to an overpass above the Kennedy Expressway, and hung a giant Stars and Stripes from the guardrail. This is America at its finest.
Driving down Michigan Avenue in front of the Tribune Tower, there is a construction barricade in the median. A large hand-written sign was taped to the barricade: "STILL UNITED!"
I had always been fascinated with World War II, and have tried to imagine what it must have been like on that day we found out that we had been attacked at Pearl Harbor. From what I know, it happened on a cold and snowy day in my hometown of Cincinnati. Cold, gray and snowy seemed appropriate for the occasion.
Today, however, was a beautiful day in Chicago. Not a cloud in the sky, and perfect temperatures. It feels very weird. I came around a bend on the Kennedy Expressway, and our beautiful skyline opened up in front of me, blazing bright gold in the setting sun. I looked at the Sears Tower and Hancock Center and thought: It could have been us. I still get a shiver everytime I hear a police siren of fire truck. I want to break down and cry, but right now I can't seem to get it out. Right now I feel more numb than anything else. I'm sure the numbness will pass. I want to be there in New York helping out, doing something, but I can't. I feel helpless.
I have a large collection of old newspapers in a drawer in my closet. It includes papers from Lincoln's assassination, World War I, the Pearl Harbor attack, World War II, V-E Day, V-J Day, JFK's assassination, the Moon Landing, Nixon's resignation, and the collapse of the Berlin Wall.
I added a couple more papers to the drawer today, the Tribune, Sun-Times, and NY Times. The Sun-Times front page screamed "OUTRAGE".
I hope to add another Sun-Times to that drawer soon, one that screams "VICTORY!"
-- David
Chicago, IL
There was a 12 hour long blood drive here at Hofstra starting at 9. By 2, they were turning people away to other area blood banks because the outpouring of support and donations was more than they were prepared for.
For all the problems we have, we know how to come together when it really counts.
The problem now may be too much blood donated which may cause a shortage over the next few weeks given that you can only donate once every 56 days.
Today, however, was a beautiful day in Chicago. Not a cloud in the sky, and perfect temperatures. It feels very weird.
New York's weather was almost perfect too. I once read that many of the European battlefields from both world wars today are peaceful, bucolic places. Sort of the same thing.
It looked like such a pristine day until I looked west...
New York had one cloud in the sky.
I got another mail from Telehouse, and they've re-estimated the fuel situation based on depletion rates and they now say they should have enough fuel to last til Friday morning. They're trying to get a fuel shipment authorized for tomorrow but I imagine everyone else is, as well.
That is, indeed, very good news.
wayne
I would rather they redirect that fuel to a more needy location.
-Hank
Well, it's not like we're having a fuel shortage. Besides, if you saw the list of tenants at 25 Broadway (in terms of data and telecommunications connectivity), when that building goes down a good portion of the NYC internet connectivity is going to go with it. Check out: http://www.nyiix.net/members.html for companies peered in the building where nycsubway.org is located...
From what I just heard on TechTV, a major internet hub connecting to Europe is nearby (don't remember where, might be in that same building) and only has enough fuel for another day and a half (as of 7 PM Wednesday), which means sometime Friday, much of Europe is going to be quite pissed.
The way I understand it, all internet requests from Europe would just get to America via a different route.
That's the way the routing protocols were *designed* but the simple fact is that many large enterprises still put all the eggs in one basket. Or, they have two connections that draw power from the same source, or run into the building through the same fiber bundle.
Most likely, but I don't think there are many undersea connections. There was an article on, dare I mention it, the Anandtech forums many months ago, but I'm too tired to look it up. If indeed it is the only one, or one of the most important ones, it going down could become a serious issue.
I'm glad to hear that the place will remain up a while longer. Subtalk has been my own personal link to some sanity from upstate and I'm praying that it will remain standing throughout this all as an act of American defiance ... Subtalk has become a beacon of hope for all of us who can't get into the city to help, and a symbol of perseverance. I hope that somewhere among all of the other pressing issues, permission can be granted to get a truckload into telehouse in order to keep this standing. As much as this place has meant to me personally since I discovered subtalk, its meaning is magnitudes higher now through this horrible crisis.
Is there anything you need?
> Is there anything you need?
Me personally? No but thanks for asking...
-Dave
I have buddies in the media here, in Canada and other places that have been looking in on subtalk and its presence and continuation is of high political and morale value, literally a digital equivalent of the proposed replacement WTC design described earlier today. Given that this site is hosted in the rubble, its meaningfulness cannot be understated. Not just to NYC but the rest of the world. I'm sure the logs will bear this out when you get a chance to see them at some point.
I wish I could come up with the words to describe how I personally feel about all this, but I still can't. That's why having this place lit is so important to me and others as well, even if an internet BBS is the least of our worries right now. As a symbolic "FU" to these bastards who did this, it's a monument.
I second that. SubTalk is the closest link I have to New York City, and I want to hold onto it very tightly.
Ironic that a site dedicated to electric trains is now running on deisel power, though. :-)
Dave: If you need of my web server for any reason, let me know. The offer stands.
-- David
Chicago, IL
Electricity is a wonderous thing. We only miss it when we no longer have it. Here in upstate New York, ice storms, wind storms, tornadoes and the Public Service Commission conspire to leave us without electricity more often than anyone would want.
Most folks upstate have either a "blackout/storm kit" or like us, diesel "on-site" ... you have to. But this may also serve to explain why outside of the five boroughs, most traction depends on generators on steel wheels. If you have your generator with you, then you'll be lit. We all take too many things for granted. It makes us vulnerable.
Long Island used to be pretty bad in the days of LILCO but since LIPA the distrubution cables are in better shape, they are upgrading constantly. I've been lucky, not too many outages this year. In some of the more isolated parts of the North shore outages are more common. Outages would probably be reduced if homeowners wouldn't fight the utility when it comes to removing trees and branches.
Great news Dave.
-Harry
Yeah it's nice to hear Subtalk will be up for a day longer, hopefully power will come back and there won't be an outage.
Well then hopefully Subtalk will stay on the air for 24 more hours, but unless power it restored and access to the site permitted it still may go out.
Con Ed is having power problems all over Manhattan. Power dips caused momentary interruptions of WCBS and WPIX transmissions.
The Greek poet Aeschelus once wrote that "pain, which cannot forget, falls drop by drop upon the heart until in our despair, and against our will, comes wisdom through the awful grace of God". Yesterday's events signal not the end of violence, nor the death of terror, but neither do they signal the death of hope for We as a people shall rise again. We will heal our injured, bury our dead, and patch up our nation's wounds. Yet We shall also face the world, and most importantly each other, and rededicate ourselves to the completion of that task which is most noble and true to ourselves and our nation; to consecrate and reaffirm the value of all human life and preserve, protect, and defend those rights and liberties which make such life worth living.
Eric Dale Smith
THANK YOU, bro! I had been hoping to see this attitude a bit more than "nuke 'em 'til they glow" ... thank you for maintaining. We need a WHOLE lot more of this attitude in the days ahead or there will truly be no difference whatsoever between us in a so-called "civilized country" and those we deplore. THANK YOU!
"! I had been hoping to see this attitude a bit more than "nuke 'em 'til they glow" ."
Nuke em until who glows? Would the deaths of inocent civilians in Kabul make us a better people, or even make us feel better? I don't think so.
On the other hand, I don't think we should bother ourselves with a trial for Bin Laden (or whomever is guilty). *they* are the ones who have commited an act of war against us, and therefore civil laws do not apply to them (unless we should take them prisioner). If in the course of *THEIR* little war, they should be killed, well, that was one of the risks they took.
For those governments what as support terror, and terrorists, well, they too are legitimate targets in this little war.
Elias
My only point was, and IS, let's be SURE of who we're going to seek retribution against and be CERTAIN that we've identified the correct parties. To do anything less makes us animals on a rampage. We're better than that I hope.
Amen
Yes.
Seth
I agree that before anything is done the perps have to be IDed along with their location and find out if they have any national support.
But ... Supposed bin Laden is hiding out in a populated area of Kabul. What then? Do you say you can't attack him until he goes for a Sunday drive into the country? And suppose that -- as has been suggested -- that while bin Laden may have hatched the plot, Saddam is the money man. We already know he moves around more than Allied Van Lines, has doubles and deep bunkers all over Iraq. What then? Cruise missles alone, or do we go in and pull him out, knowing there may be civillian casualties?
My personal feeling is that if we have conclusive evidence, the answer is yes on both counts. Eliminating the terrorists who did this and his supporters is not going to be a clean and easy thing like some video game, which is basically what 90 percent of all U.S. military actions seem to have become over the past 10 1/2 years -- just stand back and watch the video camera with the night scope show the missile do all the work, hitting (supposedly) only military targets while our troops stay out of the way.
Before the Gulf War began, there was talk that Iraq's forces were the third biggest army in the world and the U.S. could expect to have at least 10,000 casualties. Well, we had a nice clean war, only got 128 people killed, stopped short of Baghdad because we didn't want to break up the Gulf War coalition, and now we have 20,000 dead or more. This time, when we go in we've got to do it right and realize that there will be deaths on both sides. But that's war, and we weren't the ones who asked for this.
From what I understand from "reports" on TV (I trust today's journalists no further than politicians, especially that piece of CRAP called CNN) that the actual terrorists had passports from the United Arab Emirates (UAE) and did not originate in Afghanistan. So what happens now?
It sounds like we still do not have all the facts to prepare for what our government is going to do in our collective name as yet. If Bin Laden *is* responsible, that's something else. We did not declare war as was expected - in war, you try to avoid harming innocents but we all understand that in a declared war, all's fair. Ask the former residents of Hamburg, Germany who all perished in the firestorm or those in Hiroshimia or Nagasaki. All I'm saying is we'd better be damned sure before we go to the limit here. We can all afford to wait a couple more days to be sure.
Beyond saying this though, I won't comment on official policy. I'm not qualified.
From what I understand from "reports" on TV (I trust today's journalists no further than politicians, especially that piece of CRAP called CNN) that the actual terrorists had passports from the United Arab Emirates (UAE) and did not originate in Afghanistan. So what happens now?
I highly doubt that the terrorists had any connection with the Emirates other than getting (probably fake) passports. The Emirates are reasonably secular and pro-West. They are nothing whatsoever like Afghanistan or Iraq.
That's precisely my point though. Do we bomb the UAE because they came through there? What about Yemen where our ship was blown up?
In "wars" of the past, we had a clearly identifiable "enemy" and territory where the enemy resided. All of this is not so cut and dry and thus, not as easy to open a can of wupass on. And there isn't much left in Afghanistan to bomb either. New York Times has an article on this for Thursday's newspaper:
http://www.nytimes.com/2001/09/13/international/asia/13AFGH.html
When our government takes action, it's going to be a lot more difficult than we'd like it to be. Leaping to conclusions in a vacuum of fact at the moment is thus a very bad idea. Once we're CERTAIN, it's a whole 'nuther story.
The Taliban apparently has plenty of money for munitions, guns and dynamite. Hard to have much sympathy for them and their supporters until they get their priorities straight (though knowing the Times, they'll probably start a "Talaban Fresh-Air Fund" to send them all to summer camp in Upstate New York next summer).
As this goes along, it's clear things may not be so clear on the attack.
Ideally, you'd have Terrorist Leader A and his co-horts in Country X, and if Country X doesn't turn over Terrorist Leader A you bomb them until they look like the dust hanging over lower Manhattan. But you could have Terrorist Leader A in Country X, Terrorist Financier A in Country Y and Terrorist Flight Simulator/Training Base A in Country Z, and then the situation gets more complicated.
Now there are mutiple targets in multiple nations, which means getting proof of the complicity of the leader/finanmcier/base camp, and then finding out whether or not the nations involved are complicit. If so, then you have to think about multiple site attacks in multiple nations, which we can pull off, or you can bomb one of the places so severely you scare the shit out of the leaders of the other complicit nations -- hopefully enough for them to turn over any terrorists hiding out there.
But the more different nations that are attacked or the stronger are response, the more we will find our moral authority challenged. That could make us new enimies, but it's just something the U.S. may have to live with.
Terrorist Flight Simulator/Training Base A in Country Z
Unfortunately, it looks like Country Z is the United States
Apologies ... I meant "Dresden" not "Hamburg" ...
tune in on ABC News.
False alarm!
STOP IT, STOP IT EVERYONE! STOP AND LISTEN TO THIS breaking news item from Channel 2 news:
There is a suspicious package on the 44th Floor of the Empire State Building - there has been an evacuation of the building and the surrounding area sounds as if it is under lockdown.
Stay tuned for more news.
wayne
As of right now, the area around the Empire State Building is being evacuated. This includes the nearby subway station. Apparently a bomb-sniffing dog has turned up a positive lead. That's all I know.
-- David
Chicago, IL
SUBTALK LIVE IN SESSION
This measure is in effect until further notice. If nycsubway.org goes down, please come to SubTalk Live.
BusTalkers are welcome, too!SubTalk live is your chance to hold LIVE chats with other railfans and busfans. All are welcome and encouraged to join us for a fun evening!
As in any Internet forum or chatroom, certain polices and rules need to be created and enforced. SubTalk Live is no exception. The following policies are in effect at all times in the chatroom or when making posts on SubTalk and BusTalk pertaining to the chat:
1. ANY public transit related topic can be discussed (bus, subway, or railroad).
2. It is requested that you use your handle as your chat nickname.
3. OPs will be the sole people in the chat to deem a topic off subject and are the only people who can make announcements on SubTalk and BusTalk pertaining to the opening, closing, delay, cancellation, postponement, software, server, or technical difficulties with the chat. When in doubt over what you are about to do, don't do it! If you have a problem with any of the above issues, e-mail an operator. Please do not post on SubTalk or BusTalk! This also applies to responding to this message. Do not respond to this message unless you are posting a question relevant to SubTalk Live. Do not post announcements pertaining to the chat.
4. Anyone who disrupts the chat in any way (scrolling, profanity, obscene remarks, constant chatting off-topic, or any of the above) will be punted and/or banned from SubTalk Live with or without warning.ARE YOU READY TO SUBTALK LIVE???
Just click here and join in! If you have mIRC, do not click the link, just do your thing!COME HAVE SOME FUN! JOIN IN NOW!
DO NOT RESPOND TO THIS MESSAGE. YOUR QUESTIONS WILL BE ANSWERED IN THE CHAT ROOM.
10:42PM
Both Ch.2 and Ch.7 have reported that the bomb scare was just that, a scare. They DID do the prudent thing; can't be too careful just now.
wayne
By the time I heard about it, it was already declared a hoax. I hope the NYPD catches the rat bastards that would even THINK about doing stuff like this.
They came into a restaurant a few blocks away where I was eating with eight others, yelling and screaming "GET OUT!!! GET OUT!!!" As the restaurant patrons and employees stampeded the front staircase, many crying, a young woman in our group was so upset she fell out of her chair trying to get out, and later hurt her leg in the frenzy of people running north in the streets. She was so upset she ran out literally into the street traffic (without even looking where she was going) to try to get a taxi.
I and others ran five or ten blocks north. People were crying and frantically calling loved ones on using their cell phones while running.
A couple of us went into a bar where no one had heard anything about a bomb threat at the Empire State Building.
Although I can understand that the police are under a lot of stress, I was annoyed at what seemed to be senselessly causing panic.
Copycat crime threats are common after a major incident, except of course, that none of these people are going to hijack a plane and crash it into a building to get their jollies; they get it from phoning in fake bomb threats and watching the reaction.
I'm sure in a similar vein, you'll start hearing the first sick jokes about the World Trade Center disaster within a day or so from the same kind of people that phoned in the bomb threat (and who should be made to help with the body recovery efforts on-site at the WTC as punishment).
From today's Chicago Sun-Times:
-- David
Chicago, IL
I'm hurtin,people. My older brother worked in the towers and he still missing.His boss called my sister yesterday and today doing a head count.No sign of himHe hasnt call us ,nor his wife and daughter. my sister E-mailed his picture to FOX 5 NEWS THIS EVENING,hoping the best,but fearing the worst.Pray for us.
My thoughts and prayers certainly go to you and your family as well as anyone on this board that may be in this situation as well.
I have a friend who's friend is missing as well and I feel so helpless to anyone. I'm going to a prayer service at Adas Israel here in DC tomorrow because I need this outlet before I crumble.
God Bless us all.
THANK YOU
Yesterday,I watched in horror[you know what i mean] happened on tv. Then I realized that my sister worked at BMCC[4 blocks over north up West st]and had to get offthe A train at Chambers st.She reports in at 8-30 am! She Watched the WHOLE THING[THE 2 PLANES]!!!! I her over and over at home/work and other family/friends. no sign of her. Then it dawned on me that our brother was AT work already!!!!So all day, I was tring to reach them ,but couldnt. LATE last night,I was able to finally reach my sister,but not my brother. I'm sick in my heart,not being able to help.Now i know what being powerless really means. Powerless,but not helpless.I talk to GOD and I wait on him,AND DOING THAT HELPS JUST FINE.
It's quite possible that she went looking for him and found him at one of the hospitals. Why she hasn't called is unknown, but try to think of the best possibilities. The scene is still chaos and many hundreds of people are still at hospitals in critical condition and may not be able to contact you right away.
My thoughts are with you. Best of luck.
Seth
I hope and pray he's still alive, but I'm sure you probably know that you've lost him. We're all in tears for you, your family and others here who have lost loved ones in this unspeakable attack. I wish I could offer words of encouragement, but I'm sure you already know how little help they would be. Gather the family, it's about all you can do. I'm terribly terribly sorry for a world full of people who can hate so much that they can do this or cheer on the perpetrators.
The world isn't full of people who can hate like this.
This is the act of a small group of people who talk religious, but act as anarchists believing in the AntiChrst.
He is here,my friend.He just hasn't revealed himself yet.
You know,I lost so many people in short life time, I dont know what to feel anymore. I've lost my mother and daughter within two months of each other,my father and newborn son within four months of each other,a baby brother at birth,and an aunt[ whom i love very much].As Ihave come to understand,GOD never gives you more than you can handle,but man the weight of this burden is tearing me to pieces bit by bit. How can you stay strong and shoulder all THIS at the same time? My sisters and children look to ME for support! I look to GOD,But sometimes...somestimes it just gets to HEAVEY for me to carry.
I hope you still have people to share this burden. I hope that our small presence is of some comfort to you. In your pain and grief don't lose your faith. I am not religous myself, but I can't believe that you have been deserted, and that your faith is in vain.
The world can fall apart around my ears,and still my heart will be with and belong to GOD. I thank you for the kind words.
Your faith should inspire all of us.
That which doesn't kill us only makes us stronger. A tired old phrase perhaps, but in the end it's truth. God also gives you strength though at the moment, I'm sure you're walking in a daze. I don't want to sound preachy, but right now YOU need some help and the solace of those who are still with you. You really might want to read over what I dropped in the other thread on "how to cope" ... and suggest strongly that you and your family seek out the help of others that you can get to. Now is NOT a time to take this all in alone.
Please know that you and your family are in my prayers.
-- David
Chicago, IL
My heart goes out to you and all those who have lost or missing loved ones.
My heart goes out to you and your family.
I'll light a candle again tonite for your brother and everyone.
=)
I am sorry to hear this I will pray for you.
Im so sorry.I will pray for your family and everyone else's families.
This is more than anyone should have to bear. My heart goes out to you.
You are in my thoughts and prayers.
On tonight's local news:
Chicago mayor Richard Daley has personally contacted Rudy Gulliani and offered the full resources of the City of Chicago to give New York whatever help it needs, no questions asked.
And the John Hancock Center and other Loop skyscrapers are now bathed in red, white, and blue floodlights.
You are not alone.
-- David
Chicago, IL
Oh, one more thing...
When I was driving around downtown, I noticed that dozens of people in the Loop were wearing NYC-themed t-shirts. Yankess, Mets, cheesy souvenir t-shirts, you name it... I found it very touching.
-- David
Chicago, IL
This was forwarded to me, I want to pass it along to all here ... I am not reformatting it, hopefully it's readable:
I received this from a friend of mine who works in Grief counseling and I think it is important to pass it along here. Police and rescue workers are at the highest risk for Post stress disorders (and least likely to seek help)and these tips can help anyone who is dealing with the grief of this tragedy. Please take the time to read and take to heart what this person has written. Be there for each other and don't be afraid to talk about how you feel.
Love,
xoxoxoxoxoxoxoxoxoxoxoxoxoxoxox
Human beings waking up on this day after and the many days after to come will need to find ways to cope with this awful event. Here then, are some suggestions for how to accomplish this task.People reacting to losses and traumas tend to go through a set of 'stages of grief' which are usually listed as denial, outrage/anger, working through, and resolution. Although these 'stages' don't always occur in this order, they are experiences that many people will go through as they come to terms with this event. Although a verbal description is not the same as experience, it is nevertheless a good idea to know what you and others are likely to feel.
Denial
You can't believe that this is happening, has happened. It seems unreal, like a dream. The world may even seem unreal and you may go about your day in a sort of fog. In the more serious scenarios, true dissociation can occur where there is distorted memory for the event. Just this morning on the news, I saw an interview with the parents of one of the Pennsylvania victim's parents. It seems that this brave man was able to call his parents after the hijacking, tell them he loved them, and also tell them about the hijacking events. The parents noted that he "IS a proactive sort of person" and would be someone who would try to take action against the hijackers. Maybe, they wondered out loud, maybe he helped crash that plane into the ground rather than allow it to hit a target. I noted the parent's use of the present tense in describing their son - the reality of the son's murder hasn't quite sunk in yet.
Outrage/Anger
You are angry, furious, outraged at the event, at being victimized, at the scope of the tragedy, at the death toll of thousands of innocents, at the vulnerability that has been forcibly brought to your attention, at your own vulnerability. You are hurt, you may even find yourself crying. You are both sad and angry. You want revenge. You want blood. You want to take the eye of the perpetrator (who at this point is not known), for having taken your own eye. In the more severe scenarios, you will not wait to know who did this, will not limit your anger to those who legitimately deserve it, will not allow the government and military to do their jobs, but rather will race out to harm others who, in your own mind are associated with the perpetrators.
If these are your feelings, please do not act on them. Feel them, talk about them even, but do not act on them. The people you as an individual could harm are not to blame for this tragedy. They were not the perpetrators. Instead, they are as much victims as you are. Allow the United States government to "hunt down and punish" (in the words of President Bush) the true perpetrators.
Working Through
Working through happens over time. It is the process through which one ends up sorting all the many feelings out and weaving them into the fabric of ones life so that, as it were, things return to 'normal'. Many different feelings may be felt during this sorting out process: anger and outrage may alternate with periods of relative detachment, fatigue, sadness, bursts of tears, even numbness at times. You may find yourself not wanting to feel anything, and then later find yourself overwhelmed by feeling. It is as though you have swallowed an emotional meal that your body and soul are not quite able to digest all at once. Eventually, over time, most will find a way to digest it all, and life will return to 'normal'
Resolution
Resolution is a relative term. Mostly what it means is that the acute emotional mess of working through is resolved enough so that life has returned to a regular rhythm, and once again, worry about paying the bills and holding and keeping a job, and keeping your relationships on an even track become the day to day worries. Some people will resist resolution in the belief that to resolve and be over this tragedy means that the horror has been forgotten and that the meaning of the attack has been forgotten. Others will find solace in spiritual teachings of forgiveness and confidence in the ultimate ability for eternal judgment to sort out things better than any human being could. For many people, resolution will be hard to achieve until there has been some satisfactory response by the United States government.
The intensity of this process of grieving and working through will likely be in relationship to how closely you have been impacted. Those who have lost loved ones will be hardest hit, as will those who do the actual rescue and emergency work. Those who know people who were lost, but are not related to them will be hit to a lesser degree. Those who only saw this on the television and heard it on the radio will have an easier time.
Trauma Disorders
Those people most directly impacted by the violence and death are at heightened risk for experiencing trauma disorders. A trauma disorder
occurs (in the broadest sense) when a person is not able to follow a normal process of grief through to resolution, and instead gets stuck
in it, reliving the emotions and memories associated with the trauma over and over. There are two forms of trauma disorders: Acute Stress
Disorder and Posttraumatic Stress Disorder. As the names suggest, the big difference between these two disorders is that Acute Stress Disorder happens directly in the aftermath of a trauma, while PTSD by definition cannot occur until six months after the occurrence of the trauma.
Trauma disorders are characterized by: 1) heightened startle responses, arousal, and anxiety reactions, 2) avoidance of trauma related people, places, things and memories, and 3)intrusive re-experiencing of the trauma in the form of nightmares, waking dreams and memories, and sometimes even hallucinations.
See Your Doctor
If you have been traumatized, it isn't a bad idea to see your doctor, or even better, a Psychiatrist with an understanding of trauma. Doctors may be able to prescribe a treatment plan for you that will help address and help you work through your traumatic circumstances. Such a plan will likely include medication and psychotherapy.
Encourage But *Do Not Force* Talking
It is most important that people exposed to a trauma be encouraged, *but not forced* to talk about what they have experienced. Traumatized persons are very vulnerable to being flooded with the emotion of what they have experienced it is quite important that they be able to speak about what they have witnessed in a safe environment in front of people who will have the strength to witness what they have to say and feel without themselves becoming overwhelmed, angry,etc.. Many lay people will have a difficult time doing this and so, in many cases the task of encouraging traumatized people to talk will be best left to trained mental health professionals. If you are a traumatized person, consider seeking psychotherapy at this time. If you know of people who have been traumatized, encourage them
to participate in psychotherapy sessions. Both individual psychotherapy and group psychotherapy sessions with other persons who have experienced similar or the same traumas can be very helpful to trauma victims. In some cases, therapy may be the thing that prevents trauma victims from crossing the line from Acute Stress into Posttraumatic Stress Disorders.
Combating Helplessness
Most all people are on edge in the aftermath of a national trauma like that we have just experienced. Don't be surprised if there is an
increase in the number of household arguments you have. Don't be surprised if you find that fears and phobias you had a handle on before (fears of flying in an airplane, of being in a tall building, etc.) become exacerbated. Chalk this up to the normal process of working through and trust that in most cases these will recede as this event becomes resolved (and if they don't that there is effective therapy that can help). In the mean time, there are a few things you can do to combat feelings of helplessness:
1) Give Blood.
The Red Cross and hospitals in the New York City and Washington D.C.areas are in need of blood. Be part of those who help the victims get the blood that they need by donating some to your local Red Cross or Blood Bank. Call 1-800-GIVE-LIFE (1-800-448-3543) or try the Red Cross' website
2) Talk About It.
If this tragedy is bothering you, talk about it with others who also want to talk about it. This sort of talk could happen anywhere, at home, work, with a therapist, with a religious leader, etc. It doesn't have to be formal. Just watch out for expressions of violence and anger. It's really okay to talk about being angry, hurt, devastated, etc. but it is *not okay* to threaten others with violence (see my plea above under Outrage/Anger). Let the government handle that part.
Mark Dombeck, Ph.D.
Director MNH
THANKS
While appreciated, any thanks should go to Mark Dombeck, Ph.D., Director MNH ... I merely passed it along here in hopes it would be of some help. When you're in the middle of a disaster and are walking around, it's very hard sometimes to realize that when they speak of injuries, they're talking about *YOU* ... but you're welcome just the same. So many of us outside the boroughs desperately want to do SOMETHING ... I was born and raised down there and can't get in to help in any meaningful way.
Kirk,thats just my point, IM right here[in the Capitol District] like you!!!trying to get there and i can't!
Whoops! Forgot about that ... but the last thing NYC needs right now is more people in the way.
A city is it's people. But it also is it's walls. It's buildings and its infrastructure. Since time immemorial cities were also fortresses. It was the business of the sovereign to protect the city and its people. America is one of the first places to build cities without city walls. However is seems that the sovereign has broken his contract with the people by not providing this protection. Granted, this attack was largely un-forseen though it should not have been.
America is also different in another way: we all collectively and individually are the sovereigns of this land. Mutual protection and the protection of our cities *is* our business. And we have elected executives, from Rudy to George, to execuite our will and to oversee our protection.
We must evaluate the threats against us and provide greater protections. When we rebuild the WTC (and we will~ for that is the only fitting memorial to those who have died), we ought not to forget to put anti-aircraft missiles on the top.
But we need not wait until then. We have a state militia, and the governor can put batteries in our harbor and on other military bases in the city by the end of the week, if that is what was necessary to protect the city from attack.
But then, that is the business of the sovereign.
Elias
1201am Sept 14
NightLine (ch.7) has just finished broadcasting a video shot by a professional videographer (Tim Cochran), as he walked through the rubble starting at the Atrium (2WFC) and proceeding into the pit itself, entering via what was left of Customs House (6WTC).
It is absolutely astonishing how these buildings were, as they described it "smashed to atoms". They are literally digging out debris and bodies by hand.
wayne
Today around 4:45 PM I was on a downtown 5 train out of Union Square. 4 and 5 trains at that time were supposed to run non-stop to Borough Hall and 6 trains were terminating at Bleecker Street (or at least ending service there - I don't know where they were turned). Just north of Brooklyn Bridge, the train halted for a few minutes and then the conductor announced that because of weakened buildings in lower Manhattan, the train would go back up uptown. It ran onto the local track at Brooklyn Bridge and through the City Hall loop; the first time I've ever been through there. Most of the passengers were disoriented about where they were and didn't notice the City Hall station. On the way north we stopped at Spring (which I had thought was closed), Bleecker and Astor, and confused passengers got off at these stops. At Astor, police on the platform announced that this was the last train through the area. By 14th Street, the conductor and the platform P.A. stated that all service was going to end below Grand Central.
Yes, I think they were concerned that subway vibrations would cause problems with 1 Liberty Plaza, which fronts on Broadway. There was speculation that the building was in danger of collapse, in fact, that still may be the case - I have heard conflicting reports on this (would someone in the know please report?) In any case, that's another tall building there (50 plus stories). Don't know if they have restored Lex service through there.
wayne
Very interesting.
Is the City Hall loop too close to the sensitive buildings to turn trains there? That would at least allow service to Spring Street and up.
I'm still extremely surprised that my A train (just after 5) ran its regular route through lower Manhattan.
Very interesting and surprising indeed.
I think only one or two trains with passengers went through the loop; empty 6 trains must have been using it too. I guess it must have seemed advisable to just terminate all service at Grand Central rather than take any further risks (the loop is about three blocks from the northeast corner of the Trade Center complex). At that time (late afternoon) all auto traffic was blocked at 14th Street and most pedestrian traffic was stopped at Houston Street.
Ironic, normally people aren't let into the loop due to terrorist scares, now they were sent thru BECAUSE of terrorism.
Does all of this mean that the Giuliani Admonistration was correct in preventing the City Hall station from being open to the public as a museum??
Hmm.
Tunnel Rat.
On the one hand, it validates Rudy's general concerns with security. On the other, it suggests that terrorists have other priorities that come before City Hall. In hindsight, it wasn't terribly bright to position the OEM in such a prominent location. They probably should have picked a spot more like the US Drug Enforcement Agency offices in NY. (If you're scratching you head right now wondering where the f--- that is, that's the whole point.)
This is for Wednesday.
Basically the 4 and 5 were the only IRT trains running from Bklyn and Manhattan. After Boro Hall, the next stop was Union Sq. 6 trains last stop was Bleecker, I guess for the transfer. After that, the train went light around the loop and service started at either Spring or Bleecker St.
4: Woodlawn-New Lots(express after Nostrand Ave)
5: Dyre Av-Flatbush Av.
Shuttle train from Flatbush to Atlantic Ave.
Trains was stored on express track from Utica to Franklin.
I sincerely hope that any ST'er that works in the city was able to get home Tuesday afternoon. I was shocked and near tears when I saw the twin towers come down. We must put aside our differences and come together as a nation to fight this evil called terrorism.
America may have been brought to its knees, but if we are on our knees, we are praying that we will find more survivors in the rubble that used to be the WTC.
Amen to that.
Additional info for LODD at the scene. Note on one of the missing: Capt. Timothy Stackpole was a member of Brooklyn's Ladder Co 103, and was seriously injured in the flashover 10/5/98 that claimed the lives of Capt. Scott LaPiedra and Lt. Jimmy Blackmore.
I don't like spreading rumors, however, it is presumed that the entire day crews of the following companies were lost:
Rescue 1
Rescue 2
Rescue 5
Field Comm 1
Engine 10
Ladder 10
Ladder 9
Squad 1 (The apparatus was heavily damaged)
Ladder company assigned to rig SL990006
Today's NY Daily News shows photos of the destruction, including overturned ambulances
CONFIRMED LODD
FDNY Personnel
Dept. Chaplin Fr. Mychael Judge (1626hrs 9/12/01)
First Deputy Commissioner William Feehan (1235hrs 9/12/01)
Chief of Department Peter J. Ganci Jr. (1225hrs 9/12/01)
Sept. 11, 2001 from injuries sustained at Manhattan box 8087 transmitted at 0906 hours Sept. 11, 2001.
Non-FDNY Personnel
Yamel Merino EMT; Metro Care Ambulance Co.
Missing-Presumed Deceased
Raymond Downey, chief of special operations command.
Capt. Timothy Stackpole (Unk. Co.)
-Hank
Add Ladder Co 113, burned.
-Hank
According to Newsday that the new Rescue 4 rig survived. A bit battered and bruised but with some TLC it will be back to help out.
Here is a link to an aerial view. Pan and zoom.
http://www.mapquest.com/cgi-bin/ia_find?link=btwn/twn-map_results&zoom_level=10&uid=ue70n5tml4p9b5ud:tn9y8g10z&aphoto=1&SNVData=3mad3-9u,hr%3br20ua2%3d%3dt5uub5%24tw2%28%3a2%2bPBCCI%2bM%18%12QS%2bRJC_WDN%2b%18BCZ%3d%11K_96755%3d72uu%28%11E%3ar20u7w%3d%3dt5uur5%3d0,rb%3b7%3bb5m-r2qfj5m%3be10h%284,3bj%7cn&pcat=&zlgif.x=1
I hope the kind people at GlobeXplorer don't mind that I marked up one of their images:
oops it's hard to read in that font but the buildings to the left of the Towers is the world financial center (wfc), the f looks like a t in that font.
Dave- Perhaps you can take that same shot and in red mark the buildings destroyed(Collapsed) and yellow for those still standing but are totalled or in danger of collapse. Thanks :-) I al;ready saved the "before view"
thanks. that makes things clearer.
Here's a schematic from the PA website:
Anyone have a similar schematic for the WFC
This is from the WFC site.
Thanks. What is the status of these buildings. From what I've read or seen North Bridge is gone. what about the buildings and South Bridge.
Today's NY Times has a better map on page A9 and lists the following:
Collapsed or Partly Collapsed:
1. 1 World Trade Center
2. 2 World Trade Center
3. Marriott Hotel
4. 4 World Trade Center
5. 5 World Trade Center
6. 6 World Trade Center
7. 7 World Trade Center
8. North Bridge
Some Buildings with Major Damage
9. 1 Liberty Plaza (nw corner Broadway & Liberty St)
10. East River Savings Bank (Church St bet Cortlandt and Dey Sts)
11. N.J. Kalikow & Co Bldg & Millennium Hotel (Bway bet Dey & Fulton Sts - old AT&T Bldg 195 Bway)
12. Federal Bldg (Church St bet Vessy & Barclay Sts)
13. N.Y. Telephone Bldg (West, Barclay, Washington, Vesey Sts)
14. 3 World Financial Center
15. 2 World Financial Center
16. South Bridge
17. 1 World Financial Center
18. St Nicholas Greek Orthodox Church (West & Cedar Sts)
19. 90 West St (Albany St)
20. Bankers Trust (Liberty bet Greenwich & Washington Sts)
Two photos from Yahoo
A/C/E entrance on the SE corner of Vescey and Church?
Looks like a scene from a Hollywood type diaster movie. But it's all too real.
Bill "Newkirk"
BMT entrance?"
that was the plan also i was going to shoot the 1-9 with a motorman who did invite me to shoot inside his cab ......... now i dont know what to do !! is it safe to visit nyc october-november 2001 ?? or should i wait until next summer ??
also i was going to shoot the N train as well !!!!!.....................................( sigh ) ....
right now nothing is truly safe, despite all the security, if there were plans for other buildings to go down (using regular bombs), they probably will.
By november, things will probably cool down, but the 1-9 and the N will probably still be under limited service, since they both used to go very close to the WTC and the tunnels are probably damaged.
1/9 is limited...::SIGH::.
BUSH, get off your TUSH!!
so in other words come later on like next summer ??
Re: was going to come to nyc shoot videos oct-nov-3-01 ....??
We don't really know what's going to be in a month. We may be at war, literally. The only reference point I can think of is WWII. If it's anything like that, anyone with a camera is likely to be viwwed with suspicion, especially in an area considered sensitive.
As late as the 1950s, people on Circle Line boats were cautioned to put their cameraas away when we were near the Brooklyn Navy Yard.
Nothing is going to put me off coming to New York in November, even if I have to row across !
Simon
Swindon UK
except i wanted to shoot a railfan video on the 1-9 N long island railroad maybe metro north harlem lines
revisit the #7 the 4 6 5 3 2 Q .......................................
what happens when i show up with my video camera & digital still camera taking videos & stills of the rail
systems there in nyc & around new york ??etc......?????
last fall no problem but how about now????????????????????????
That's the spirit!
Hear, hear! I'll help you row back!
wayne
Arrr!! a PIRATE among us.... :)
Salaam, it's a crap-shoot right about now and I tell you this in all sincerity. On the streets you'd probably be safer that at any time in the past. Going into a Mosque to worship, though, who knows what crazies are running around the streets with guns. Subways, ?????????My intern is a Muslim and since she wears the traditional Muslim garb (although not Arab), I strongly urged her not to ride the Subways. Between her mother and myself, we've convinced her...........
My prayers go out to all from San Francisco. I am a native NYer and was in NYC 2 weeks ago for a family funeral - the second in 4 months when my dad died in April. :-( He worked at 1 Liberty Plaza.
On Tuesday I received a call waking me up at 7am PDT to tell me to turn on CNN. I did and I got sick. I can't express in words how I feel. When the towers went down and I remember them just 2 weeks ago looking down 7th Ave South maveling them in my mind, it was terrible.
My mom called me this afternoon to tell me that 1 Liberty was collapsing. Anybody have a link for a picture of the building online for me? I guess it is for sentimental reasons since my dad used to work there.
Again, our thoughts and prayers are with all of you!
ScottinSF
Try this:
It's a small black & white photo, but I hope it helps.
-- David
Chicago, IL
Latest reports say that 1 Liberty Plaza did not in fact suffer major structural damage. I'm sure there aren't many windows left, but the building itself remains sound.
New York Times of September 15 (at least on-line) has a map showing status of all buildings that are or had been in the World Trade Center area. 1 Liberty Plaza was listed as "partially collapsed". The building certainly appears to be intact from the view I had of it from Canal Street on Friday. Is there any new information?
By the way, this is the building that replaced the 1908 Singer Tower, which was demolished in 1968.
Indeed it is. One Liberty occupies the square block bordered by Broadway (E), Liberty (S), Church (W), Cortlandt (N).
My home building, the HSBC (former Helmsley-Spear) Building, on the square block Broadway (W), Liberty (N), Nassau (E) and Cedar (S) is similiar to One Liberty. We have minimal damage, with the exception of soot in the turbines on the cooling towers.
Is it still standing? Do you have a pic of 1 Libery?
ScottinSF
From the post satelite pic that CNN showed about 30 minutes ago it's still standing. Also the Times didn't list any damage to it, although the news over the last few days has been saying first that they were afraid it was coming down, then that it was OK.
A sign that reads somewhat like this was just posted by the TA.
All empolyees who have the WORLD TRADE CENTER as a pay location can pick up their checks at West 4th
UNTIL FURTHER NOTICE
Which booth-the big booth or the little booth
For RTO, that would be the dispatcher's office on the downtown 6th Avenue platform.
City Hall checks are at DeKalb, also
4 still ends at Grand Central. 5 ends at E180. E ends at 2nd av-Queens local, Manhattan Express.
E is running to Euclid! I guess 40+ tph is possible between Jay and W4th. Unless that is only during non rush and during rush they cut back to W4 again.
I took an E at about 9:15 this morning from Penn Station to West 4th. We moved okay as far as 14th, but then took over 20 minutes to get to West 4th due to congestion ahead. About 15 minutes were spent at a dead stop shortly past 14th, and a few more minutes stopped just outside of West 4th.
West 4th Tower picked this week to start acting really flaky. They were not giving correct lineups to the Fs and Shutles at X14, as well as getting arguements from Southbound As and Es. My Shuttle was probably right in front of your E - we took about 20 minutes from 23 St to Bway/Lafayette.
From what both I saw Tuesday, and my mother's experience, rush hour "E" trains are stopping at 2nd av manhattan. Perhaps a few are coming into brooklyn, but not many...
There are a lot of questions being asked here.
Will they rebuild the twin towers?
Should I come to New York?
Who is responsible for this tragedy?
Is the WTC Path station opened?
Compare these and similar questions to what many New Yorkers are asking themselves:
Is my father and mother alive?
Is my child alive?
Is my spouse alive?
How do I bear this pain?
Take a picture of a loved one.
Try to imagine that they are missing right now.
Does it give you any sense of what's really important?
Does it give you any sense of the pain and loss experienced by thousands and thousands of New Yorkers right now?
Perhaps we need more than a moment of silence.
For the first time I get some concept of what World War II must have been like. We can now buy all kinds of films and picture books but none of these recapture the feeling of facing a monstrous evil and not knowing what will happen.
It's strange to be a parent right now. You spend the day watching and listening. Work is not work but the only relief you have. At times a particular story brings you to, or beyond, the edge of tears. But when the kids come home, you shift to another mode. The world will be OK, you smile and laugh with them, listen to their jokes, make sure they do their homework, correct their transgressions. My older one understands what happened and asks practical questions: "are we going to War?" "can this happen again?" "I hear a plane. I thought there were no planes flying. WIll it fall in our house?"
You don't say everything you feel. You try to mix honesty with caution. You don't want to add your own horror and fear to theirs.
BUSH, get off your TUSH.
So far our count stands at 1--a MaBSTOA bus Operator was on their bus at ground zero-no name available. I am trying to find out the status of employees on duty at either Cortlandt, either Rector and any other station in Manhattan from Canal South, especially the 1,A,C,2,3,4,5,N,R,J,M,Z.
If anyone knows the status of any other TA/MaBSTOA employee please let me know.(I dont need names- just unhurt/hurt/missing/deceased.)
Did we lose any trains in the area--with or without crew and with or without customers.
As far as I know there were no station agents that died because of the diaster. I was talking to s/s Gilby Zone 3 desk this morning and he said no casualities. Then again he's not truthful about available OT so consider that. Probably the agents were evacated from the stations in time. Overnight I tried to call some of the booths in the area. No answer. The trains that were there at the time probably escaped as well. The stations there probably have some damage. But we won't know until officials get down there.
**ALL** Manhattan Subway service suspended below 42nd street per Fire department. They fear subway is causing shaking of the unstablwe buildings. only the A train is running-the reports did not say if it still is on the F line from W 4 to Brooklyn. Tomorrow night I have to return to work. As long as I can get to any transit location I am on duty-even if it is a bus depot or TA office building.
I do not know if PATH is effected by this order form the mayor's office.
the LIRR is now suspended from Jamaica to Flatbush. Penn station is open. No news on Metro North but TV11 thinks therte is a police action there. Also- all S.I. bridges are closed. Lincoln and GWB are open.
This is such a picayune think to wonder about at a time like this, but I just have to try and take my mind off the images I've been seeing for a few minutes, as I am feeling physically ill.
After the Malbone Street Wreck in 1918, the city renamed the entire roadway Empire Boulevard, as the name "Malbone Street" was synomous with horror.
Does anyone think that the area around what was once the WTC will be renamed to something else for the same reason?
I can't see it being renamed. Unlike the Malborne street wreck, this tragedy was caused by people trying to scare us, and we need to show them that crap like that doesn't fly around here.
At most, they might rename it "The new and improved World Trade Center", just to tick off the terrorists.
I had redrawn my online subway maps (not yet UL'd), replacing all occurances of "World Trade Center" with "Hudson Terminal." The BVE (E) line I am also making reflects this change as well. I had taken some notes on the station before the incident occured.
But the Hudson Terminal isn't there anymore either...sigh
The designations of Cortlandt St and Rector St. are confusing enough, in that they are not transfer stations. Rector East and Rector West, and WTC East, WTC West would have been more logical, even before.
The IRT Cortlandt/WTC station is said to be essentially demolished. I suspect this station will be done up as a memorial, with big bright mosaics of firemen and policemen. As for the BMT Cortlandt-WTC station, I have posted elsewhere on what I think should be done.
The subway-loving-lobby needs to marshal itself quick! The WTC rebuilding will likely be fast-tracked. I bet the Mayor and Silverman are already drawing up plans.
I think the WTC Rebuild should be done like this...
Imagine The Bird/Finger..
***A Little Levity***
Since the Cortlandt Street IRT station has been essentially demolished, this would be a golden opportunity to restore it to its former IRT (Vickers style) glory. Perhaps, somewhere beneath all that rubble and behind what's left of that ugly beige-brick wall is a hexagonal plaque showing the old Jersey ferries that was part of the original station mosaics dating from 1917. Take one, recreate it and make new ones. Then do like they did at Franklin Street, with the friezes, tablets and borders. The original tile colors should duplicated if possible (there may be bits of it behind the beige bricks) And YES - do a section of it in mosaic memorial artwork for both the towers and the brave people who came to aid in time of disaster.
wayne
Death of Innocents Memorial Plaza, financed by all of the ill-gotten money from Osama bin Laden and his henchmen, would be a fine re-name.
Next to the Plaza could be the blood, guts, and bones of O. bin L. in a display celebrating our victory over evil.
Tunnel Rat.
An article in today's Star-Ledger mentions vigils taking place in North Jersey commuter train parking lots around the cars that were parked there Tuesday morning and had not been moved by Wednesday night.
I have an appropriate picture I'd like to share with everyone. Can someone tell me how to include an image in a message? Thanks
First, you have to have a website of your own on which to post it.
Most free websites no longer allow pictures on their servers to be referenced by other servers.
Once you have a web site that will allow you to reference photos, you can use HTML codes to point to that picture from here.
Elias
Iapologize if there are already posts on this subject. I understand all IRT service below 42 St is suspended, but IND/BMT service is running, except that C trains are suspended.
Again, I apologize if someone has already posted an answer to this, but since the A train is running, is the C alone affected by a particular station collapse?
The C is suspended because the A, E, and F all have to share the same tracks south of W4.
The A is making local stops where necessary.
Time to reopen the lower level at 42nd Street.
Thank you - in other words, the Eighth Av tunnel near WTC is the problem there and they're afraid of the effect of vibration on unsteady buildings.
Thank you.
No, the IRT Lexington Avenue line tunnel under Broadway is the object of concern. The 8th Avenue IND line is being diverted via the 6th Avenue, Rutgers Tunnel from West 4 through Jay Street.
One of the buildings thought to be unstable is 1 Liberty Plaza, which fronts on Broadway between Cortlandt and Liberty, although a few reports have speculated that this is not so. I am sure that any vibrations in the general area would not be good, as other, smaller buildings may indeed be compromised (i.e. Century 21, Millenium Hotel)
wayne
The tunnel itself is fine; I was on an A train that went through it yesterday afternoon. Power was out at and near Broadway-Nassau. The issue, I'm sure, is vibrations; I have no idea why we didn't divert via the F like every other train. (But passengers were waiting on the platform at High, so this wasn't entirely unplanned.)
Good news, Dave. Thanks for posting that.
According to the MTA website, E trains are running out to Euclid Ave., express in Queens, local in Manhattan and Brooklyn.
The E is presently terminating at 2nd av. (Well, at least a good deal of them) Running the F at 4 min headways and the A at 7 min headways.... It's impossible to run them together for such a long time...
http://www.nycsubway.org/ind/crosstown/smith02.jpg
:(
My first recation on Wednesday was disappointment that with all the money we tax payers pay for CIA, FBI, FAA, etc. that THEY had no clue of what was being planned by these terrorist.
Here is an item off a computer industry BBS Newsletter:
THE U.S. NATIONAL Security Agency (NSA) engaged the
so-called Echelon communications monitoring network,
following on warnings of possible terrorist attacks,
as long as three months ago, the Frankfurter
Allgemeine Zeitung (FAZ) newspaper reported.
Western and Middle East intelligence services had
received warnings more than six months ago that
terrorists were planning attacks using hijacked
airplanes against "prominent symbols of American and
Israeli culture" in the U.S. and elsewhere, the FAZ
said Wednesday, citing "information available to this newspaper."
This is about the same as I've heard AFTER other terrorist attachs.
- So WHAT WERE THEY DOING ABOUT THESE REPORTS ? (CIA/FBI)
- When the FAA Controllers lost the Boston to Calif plane, what did they do ? When they lost the Cleveland to Calif plane, what did they do ?
(OK they turned the transponders off, BUT that should have triggered some sort of action and they have other ways to SEE if the A/C is still airborne)
- Did they SEE these four planes not following any normal pattern ?
Were they trying to communicate with them ? After the first one went into the WTC, were they reacting any differently ?
You're the third person I know of who has asked what the controlers were doing when the data blocks disappeared. If there are three asking that, there are lots more. After the noise dies down, I suspect that the FAA will be asked some very pointed questions.
I'm also thinking this, and I'm sure this will be a major subject of investigation. But, reeling back to the pre-disaster, even if the controllers were completely alert and immediately suspected something terribly wrong, what could have been done with the information. Shoot down a hijacked passenger plane? On what basis? This was unprecedented and happened very fast.
With all the tension and threats in the world today, when my car radio told me the first plane hit, my first thought wasnn't terrorists. It was "How could an idiot pilot possibly run into the World Trade Center? If his plane was failing, how could he not ditch into the Hudson?" As soon as I got back, my wife told me that a second plane hit. I couldn't even sort that out. You mean there were two planes at the same time? Were they playing aerial games? Was there some sort of sightseer in a small plane trying to take a look at the damage from the first?
This act "worked" partly because it was so unimaginable.
There's also the factor, and I see it working with computer systems all the time, and it's like this: one down system(plane) must be a failure of that system; two or more down systems(planes) within seconds of each other must be a failure of the equipment used to monitor the systems. I wouldn't be surprised to hear the FAA people make a statement along the lines of they were investigating a radar systems failure, because four planes never disappeared at the same time for any other reason. There was just no precedent, and you certainly don't want to be shooting down planes that drop off the radar until you absolutely, positively know whether it's a radar failure or something worse.
And look how many hours afterward the media were cautiously using the term "apparent terrorist attack"? Even after the Pentagon hit almost simultaneously.
That's because the U.S. media (particularly CNN and ABC) is populated with smug, liberal, politically-correct people.
Now is not the time to be making defamitory remarks. I am about as liberal as you can get, yet I fully support the President in whatever actions he might take. Being liberal or conservative is not important at this time. The media may have just been cautious, as at Oklahoma City, many jumped to conclusions. I personally am quite certain it was a terroist attack, but during the mass confusion, I can understand the media's restraint.
Bill
Piggo
I think the media was just being silly-cautious, like sprinkling "alleged" through any crime description even where it has no legal significance.
Such words have little to no legal sense except in a legal courtroom, but.... and this is important: it reminds us of who we are, and what are laws are, and that we do not shoot from the hip. There are times to shoot first and ask questions later, but this clearly does not apply to reporters. "Alleged Perpetrators" and "Possible Terrorist Attacks" *is* the appropriate way for reporters to speak.
Elias
I'm talking about references that defy common sense, like when a bunch of people are murdered at a fast food restaurant and the media will referred to "the alleged crime." The crime is not alledged, the identification of who did it is alleged.
It used to be just Bob & Ray that said stuff like that, but they were joking. I recall one Dragnet-style radio spoof which ended with the announcer saying something like "the alleged preparator was convicted of murder, but since murder is not a crime in California, he received no sentence. However, he given 99 years to life in prison on two counts of being alleged, and one count of being a perpetrator."
[... one down system(plane) must be a failure of that system; two or more down systems(planes) within seconds of each other must be a failure of the equipment used to monitor the systems ...]
Understand your point ... I guess I'm just to angry to accept it right now. We'll have to see if the FAA even noticed that the planes were gone when the terrorist turned off the transponder. What about when the plane was supose to "check in" with the Controller, won't that have been a second time for the FAA to notice something was wrong ?
Now maybe the terrorist were talking to the Controller, if so did they try to "find" them on radar & when they saw them off course what was the conversations like ?
My point 2: CIA, FBI ... heard that under the Clinton admin. they shot a rocket at a motorcade containing Osama Bin-Laden. Maybe we have another Cuba situation, i.e. we tryed & failed to get Castro, so he reacted & went after the man who gave the order ????
Mr t__:^)
"Shoot down a hijacked passenger plane? On what basis? This was unprecedented and happened very fast."
Even if a wing of interceptors was scrambled immediately ( and none were likely in a ready status ) they could not have caught these planes.
Elias
Source- NY Times
IRT: tunnel blocked between Chambers and Cortlandt. Rector, Cortlandt damaged.
BMT: Cortlandt Damaged
IND" Chambers (E Platform) damaged.
In their map they gave the source of the map as our own Peter of trackmap fame.
How much do you want to bet they didn't get permission?
They never do. When everything is quiet in the future, start adding copyright notices to artwork, pics, etc. Then enforce it. You may be surprised to find out such efforts will be taken seriously.
At least they credited.
-Hank
Have you spoken to Peter yet?
I don't think the tunnel is damaged.Maybe theirs some debris on the tracks.The 2/3 tunnel isn't dmaged.At least I don't think.Then Again 4 World trade center is nothing but a frame so ...
There are lots of damage between South of Chambers to Rector Street. Cortlandt street even has a hole in the tunnel and Rector street station is bad also.
Also what other are saying I will also say. Don't exect any No.1 service from South of Chambers street anytime soon.
>>Don't exect any No.1 service from South of Chambers street anytime soon.<<
As the Times reports, if the tunnel has indeed collapsed, then it could be years before service is restored.
What will happen to the 1/9? I forsee that one of the 7th av services will have to be cancelled for a while when service resumes. Sending the 1 to New Lots seems pretty likely right now...
Not years. Long construction times are often related to existing service patterns and budgets. These are extraordinary times; the trains aren't running, no one will be around to intefere with construction and federal funds are flowing. Those tunnels could be fixed in weeks to months with the right planning. Reconstructing the stations will take longer, but access to the trains could be had even as part of a station is still being rebuilt.
Heck, they could probably run as an open cut for a time while things are being put back together. London has open-cut lines in the center of town (Metropolitan, Circle, Hammersmith & City- Barbican and Farringdon stations are in open cut)
wayne
Some of the $20 Billion aid from the Feds will go to the subway.
>IRT: tunnel blocked between Chambers
> and Cortlandt. Rector, Cortlandt damaged
This should give suffice time to 'replace the
trackbed' as the recent G/O shut down service
beyond Chambers for that very reason...
How would they be able to turn the 1/9 at Chambers?
Does a switch cross all four tracks?
Likely they will send the #1 (and the #9) on to Brooklyn, keep the #3 a shuttle in upper Manhattan.
When Cortlandt Street station is rebuilt they should restore it to its original design. Rector Street was unrestored.
I am very grateful to hear that the five rescue workers were found alive, despite my personal dislike of SUV's.
wayne
That brand new concrete is just so much dust by now. To turn 1s at Chambers requires them to arrive on the southbound express track. They can then cross all the wy over to the northbound local.
They are turning them at Cortlandt now right?
The 1 train is being turned at either 14 or even Chambers. Expect it to go to New Lots during the day and Chambers at night.
It may be difficult to get people to work in such tall buildings again. New York does need the office space however. A ring of 50 to 70 story building should be built surrounding where the destroyed buildings were. In the middle of the ring will be the world's first mile-high building. Nobody will work in it. It'll function like the CN tower in Toronto. People can go to the top and reflect on the building's meaning and the history and sadness behind it. It will be an expression of America's and New York's resolve. People will be able to point to it from many miles away and say that building represents the strength of our city, region and country. It shows that when we've been kicked down we can stand up, even taller and stronger than before.
Forget about reflecting pools, parks, and memorial walls, what NYC needs is something that can both remind it of the past and point to the future through firm resolution.
Both the Governor and the Mayor have announced that rebuilding plans are under way. The President told Senator Schumer that New York will receive direct federal aid for rebuilding.
How will the feds get the money they might not be able to issue T-bonds for some time.
Congress has announced an appropriation of at least $20 billion effective probably today, or tommorow. Bush will sign it immediately. It includes money for NY, the Pentagon and the law enforcement-retaliation effort. NY will get money to repair and restore transit and utilities, and starter money for reconstruction. The insurers and reinsurers have already publicly announced they are well prepared to deliver on their obligations.
From the New York Times:
Asked if the World Trade Center would be rebuilt, the mayor said, "There's no question we're going to rebuild. I can't say that we know the exact nature yet of how we're going to do that," but he added: "The skyline will be made whole again."
A truly minor issue, but a very good reaction to it.
Seth
Excellent Link from Engineering News Record gives more detail on the failure of the tower, and mentions as an aside that many of those involved with AirTrain could have been affected.
Engineering News Record on Tower Failure
MATT-2AV
A lot of AirTrain people were on the 63rd Floor. I know some personally, and have been able to confirm the safety of at least one person so far. My guess(and fervent hope) is other people in the same office got out OK too.
I hope so too. You know, the hope of finding people is the only thing keeping me from depression and anger.
I hear a lot of top people from the PANYNJ are still missing? People from our office were headed up there for a meeting (on a different project), and one VP reported back that he came around the corner just in time to see the second plane go in. They all just started running, ran into the first subway station, hopped the turnstiles, and had no idea what train they were on.
MATT-2AV
Any contact from him yet? Anybody know where he works? He's been in my thoughts a lot.
-- David
Chicago, IL
This pic from our "Boston T Party" trip last year. It seems like ancient history now.
Any contact from him yet? Anybody know where he works? He's been in my thoughts a lot.
I belive he works for the city Department of Education near the Queensboro Plaza station.
Dave, not to panic. I have good word that he was in Florida (Orlando) at the time of the WTC attacks. I believe his wife may be down there with him.
It's just that I believe he has a web-capable PalmPilot and usually chimes in with email from it -- but so far nothing...
Keep your fingers crossed -- his flight is due in tomorrow night (if it gets off the ground at all).
Seriously doubt he was able to shake hands with Mickey, though...:-(
BMTman
That's good news. I appreciate the update. I hope you're doing okay, Doug.
-- David
Chicago, IL
Lou hitched a ride with a colleague who needed to drive back to NYC.
Mr t__:-(
Telehouse got the fuel truck through to 25 Broadway. Don't know how they did it, but they say they now have fuel enough for 4 days.
Is all Con Ed power out in the area? How big an area, if you know?
I don't know but like I said last night, or maybe it was in the chat room, that from the jersey waterfront you can tell that every building from the World Financial Center south, facing the river, is dark. Some buildings further east, maybe east of Broadway, had lights. It appears that 52 Broadway and 95 Wall have no power so the area is pretty large.
ConEd reports power out Thomas Street and Broadway to the south and west to the water.
Power out in an area bordered by the East River, Dover St, William St and Wall St.
Officially reported that 2 World Financial Center has partially collapse. A 10-block radius of the WTC, any building higher than 10 stories is under an immediate vacate order by FDNY and FEMA until the structural intergrity of these buildings can be verified.
-Hank
Corrected-A partial collapse has been confirmed for One World Financial Center.
-Hank
Would this include the Confucious Tower housing tower near Bowery and East Broadway?
Only in New York do we see miracles of this magnitude---5 rescue workers found in an SUV supposedly at the base of WTC 1---I wonder what kind of SUV?
Does anyone still think Suvs are evil?
If they build them right, then they are the toughest things around.
They're not "evil." Just very inefficient for city driving and prone to rollovers.
If you are thinking of SUV's as a great thing because of this - well, hey I'm glad that family got lucky.
Remember, though, that you're more likely to be killed in a rollover than a building collapse on any given day.
People used to argue that wearing a seatbelt was dangerous because there were times you wanted to be thrown clear of a wreck. The problem with that was there were so many more times when being thrown clear meant sure death.
>>Remember, though, that you're more likely to be killed in a rollover than a building collapse on any given day.<<
Yeah, but you are in control of whether or not you rollover.
according to Newsday's web site traffic report- PATH WTC will be out for "Several Years".
Major damage to 1 line with South Ferry service out "for the forseeable future".
As fas as the inner platform- doors do not line up and the paltform is now used for office and storage space. I do not know if the switches from inner to outer can be used
Could the Lo-V's be used for a shuttle?
This may be the one time that the PA, NJT, and the MTA wil have to work together. With no service from Central NJ to lower Manhattan (barring the SIRT to the ferries), they will have to make a deal that will allow those commuters to make a free transfer to the subway and/or buses at 34th Street, for the trip downtown (that is, when it reopens.)
The switches were used a few weeks ago for weekend 5 service. They were scheduled to be used again either this weekend or next. Obviously, that GO is off (as are all others, I presume).
2:02PM Sept 13
We have been motitoring the situation on radio WBAB here on LI - reports state that there MAY be another building down or in imminent danger of collapse - anybody hear anything?
wayne
American Express Building (1 or 2 World Financial Center); FDNY reports building has either partially collapsed or is in imminent danger.
-Hank
The building just shifted. Nothing to worry about.
Correction-A partial collapse has been confirmed for One World Financial Center.
-Hank
And the FBI/State Dept. will be posting their pictures very shortly. It would seem that with the speedy work of the FBI & CIA, it is only a matter of hours before responsibility is certain and national responsibility will be certain. By the way, Iraq is the only Terrorist Sponsoring State who has publicly applauded the terrorist acts acts. Do you think Sadam Hussain realizes that he's on the short-list? - The very short list?
Hi Guys, i hope all you subtalkers are ok. I would like to buy a
redbird controller and a brake valve, does anybody know how can i
get them.
Take scuba lessons.
I assume that you are talking about the master controller and not the controller (group switch box). To the best of my knowledge, these items are being removed from the cars before they are submerged. I have no idea as to how many spare master controllers and brake valves are going to be salvaged. If and when any surplus parts are made available for sale, I'll post it here ASAP.
wow
ditto
To echo the British Ariways commercials: Where was everybody???
Nice to see the site back !!!!
BMT-Lines.COM
It good to be back in busniess.
Peace
David Justiniano
what the heck happened??
was really strange doing metalwork on shrt 70 with F16s rocketing overhead all afternoon....
During those 30 hours {approx.} that Subtalk was down, I found myself eager to talk to many of you about the current situation. I was looking at all the sites that was to replace Subtalk temporarilly but nobody seemed to be transferring over to them. It's wonderful to be back and we can exchange our ideas once again.
So great that the site is back... now I have something to do to put off homework that's due tomorrow...
Does this mean they've restored electricity to more of downtown?
I'm not sure. They were talking about fixing the generator at 25 Bway tonight. I don't know if it's city power, a Con Ed generator, or the building's generator powering us now.
Con Ed generator.
favorite site thats been down....the infamous jumptheshark.com has been down also.....
When the rebuild the subway they should end the 1/9 at Chambers and run the E to South Ferry.
That way they can run the E to court at some point in the future.
I remember a discussion on subtalk a few weeks ago about how the 1/9 south ferry platform couldn't be lengthened even if desired. If we had to use B division cars for that station, there would be even less cars in the platform.
Also, what would they do with the loop? A connection between the E and 5 trains is less useful than a connection between the 1 and 5 (east and west side IRTs).
In a perfect world, they'd get an FRA exemption for PATH and use the rebuilding opportunity to connect it up with the IRT and merge the two systems, the way the BMT and IND have been combined (though a PATH connection to the 4/5/6 Lex tracks between Fulton and Brooklyn Bridge would be more practical that one to the 1/9 tracks between Cortlandt and Chambers, but tougher to get done).
Not much could be done with the South Ferry Station anyway.
In that area there is:
The IRT Lexington Line going to Boro Hall-B'klyn.
The underpass from the FDR to the Westside Hy'way.
And The Brooklyn Battery Tunnel to B'klyn.
And that's all in a small area there.
B Division cars will not fit in the South Ferry loop, period.
"When the rebuild the subway they should end the 1/9 at Chambers and run the E to South Ferry."
(E) to South Ferry ?
Bill "Newkirk"
For the NYC and NY State economy to recover (we are going into depression), the FEDs will have to build -- right now -- may of the projects we've talked about on this board for so long. That's in addition to any rebuilding.
LIRR to GCT: According to the newspapers, and people I know with the companies, Salomon Smith Barney, Lehman Brothers, and American Express have all left the city. Not temporarily either -- they were forced to sign 15 to 20 year leases to get space. None moved to Long Island -- they left New York State for New Jersey and Stamford Connecticut. Long Island needs the LIRR to GCT to be competitive with these other areas as a worksite for businesses leaving NYC, and a residence for those working in NYC, so they can at least be retained in NY State's tax base.
2nd AVENUE/METROLINK: NYC needs this more than ever, just so people can believe life will improve rather than being permanently diminished. One reason Downtown has almost died twice in 40 years is that it has poor connections to the suburbs. If it is to revive, something like the RPA's Metrolink proposal will have to be built. That proposal had, in addition to the two track 2nd Avenue for NYC residents (which would link to the Nassau Street line), a special express subway from Grand Central, down 2nd Avenue to Lower Manhattan, through a new tunnel, out to Jamaica via Atlantic Avenue.
FLUSHING LINE EXTENSION: We need office space bad. I hope that the people will now be embarrassed to keep making the argument that we need to "preserve" the warehouses and abandoned buildings west of 8th Avenue in Midtown. I hope they just roll through an emergency rezoning. The Flushing Line extension will be required to serve that space.
NEW PENN STATION: Amtrak, or its replacement, looks pretty good, especially in the Northeast Corridor.
There are also some things we do NOT need:
"AFFORDABLE HOUSING" To be financed by the tax revenues from Battery Park City and the WTC, according to the Mayoral candidates. Housing in NYC is going to get cheap as the multiplier effect takes hold and tens of thousands lose their jobs. I always argued that we were more short of jobs than people. That's certainly true now.
STADIUMS: the greed of the monopoly sports teams has always infuriated me. Recent events make an insane and inequitable policy unthinkable.
Larry,
I don't think the landlords in New Jersey and/or Connecticut would be able to survive the negative publicity that would come out that they were for all intents and purposes "war profiteers" in forcing companies affected by the WTC collapse to sign multi-year leases instead of merely temporary housing arrangements.
The wrath of attorney generals' offices around the U.S. has come down hard on service stations, motels and car rental companies that jacked up their prices last Tuesday after the attacks; if the press was able to document that the so-and-so real estate company forced Amex, Morgan Stanley or whoever to negotiate leases while their people were dead or dying in lower Manhattan, public reaction would be swift and vicious, and there would probably be federal legislation introduced to invalidate any contracts signed under duress.
As for the mass transit connections, the GCT project may get built faster because part of the infrastructure is already in place. I think everything else will depend on its direct relationship to the downtown area. If office space is rebuilt on the site, I would imagine parking in the area will be extremely limited or non-exsistant, and any chance to run additional subway lines into the lower Manhattan area would be more likely now than at any other time in the recent past or distant future.
What I think could be done as far as that goes would be a No. 7 extension over to the Javits Center, and then an elevated line running south either using the High Line down to 14th St. and then along West Street, or all the way down 12th Ave./West St. from Javits to the WTC to increase subway access from lower Manhattan to midtown. The normal NIMBY objections to this would be silenced in a minute if it was shown that having at No. 7 line go down there would mean fewer cars/less possibility of car bombs in the area. And a concrente-supported el line along West Street could be built in a hurry and could not be said to disrupt the beauty of the street, since it's basically just one step down from a limited access highway the old Miller Elevated was anyway.
I agree that a full-length Second Ave. subway line with a connection to Nassau Street could also be justified, since it can be shown to shown to reduce vehicular traffic in the area. The complete Metrolink proposal might be a little ambitious if the idea of "build it and build it as fast as possible" is a factor (even though I would prefer a four-track Second Ave. line). If a new tunnel to Brooklyn was built, I would prefer a bi-level that could connect the LIRR at Flatbush Ave. with a new terminal on the east side of lower Manhattan, and another level to hook up with at least two of the four Manny B tracks (which wouldn't serve the downtown area but would eliminate one other major MTA headache at the same time).
Meanwhile, temporary repairs to the 1/9 tunnel probably won't take as long as feared once all the rubble is removed and/if the substructure is declared to be safe, because all of the buildings in the area are gone and all of the utilities are inoperative, meaning the work can be done basically as a cut-and-cover project without having to worry about disrupting services in the area.
I have been looking at maps, and I saw in interesting routing that I was playing with before the towers came down. With the towers down, and new construction in the cards, a new idea may be workable:
1) A new 4 track LIRR tunnel from LIC running south west so as to arrive in Manhattan at Avenue C and then following around to a five platform, ten track terminal under the World Trade Center. LIRR Trains will run non-stop between Jamacia (or points east of Jamacia) via the LIC line to WTC.
1A) A new (23rd Street) Subway will also run on an upper level line along Avenue C (a total of 8 tracks)
2) A new NJT tunnel from New Jersey also terminates at a five platform, ten track terminal directly under the new LIRR Terminal.
3) With direct connections from New Jersey to both Penn Station (via the Seacaus Transfer) and to WTC, PATH service gets re-focused from connecting New Jersey rail commuters to NYC to either an extension of the IRT, and/or as shuttle service from New Jersey parking facilities.
Or as a friend of mine put it We Will Rebuild!
Elias
Amen to that!
Very good analysis. The federal funds coming will help a lot. I wonder if, assuming available work crews, the Manny B repairs can be accelerated so full 4-track service can be re-established prior to '04.
"they were forced to sign 15 to 20 year leases to get space. None moved to Long Island -- they left New York State for New Jersey and Stamford Connecticut. "
These are NOT long term leases... they are the minimum necessary to build new office spaces, and new space will need to be built, as quickly as possible.
And Just how long did you thinnk it would take to rebuild the WTC???
Seems to me like these new leases will be running out just in time to populate a new WTC building.
Besides, New York is going to Grow, and Spread, and the only spreading room (realistically) is New Jersey and Conneticut. Long Island is not an option, since getting there means crossing NYC which if nothing else is a world class traffic disaster.
Elias
As for Federal disater money for subway rebuildng, it will be for just that. It will not be used to carry out 2nd Avenue subway for LIRR to GCT fantasies. Those projects were unfundable either from the feds or the state, and will continue to be.
Ah but City or State War Bonds might due the trick. The more spread the North South transportation system is the less vulnerable it is to terrorist attacks. Not that they might not be able to cut one line. Like other countries we might need to have metal detectors and more armed pairs of guards patrolling in all of transport systems, maybe bomb sniffing dogs too. This wouldn't take away our freedoms, just make it much less likely to run into madmen.
I believe in some redundancy, but I don't think there will be any focus other than getting rail service and some downtown real estate restored.
The econemy has been turned around in the past by Public Works projects. Also city wide evacuation may become more of an issue in the future. Having the extra east side line might make a huge difference. Much of my speculation assumes that this war on terrorism is going to be a long fight.
This is simply not going to shake $20-25 billion more out of Congress for 2nd Ave & LIRR/GCT. For one thing, it will take that much this year to keep the airlines from going out of business.
If this happens even once more I think a lot of the current issues of transit costs are going to take a back seat to the need for moving large numbers of people rapidly.
No one ever thought there could be anything like our present Interstate Hwy system. The need was there to move large military forces rapidly so the money was found. Now they are being rebuilt again because they have become vital to everyday life. Both the need to move people out of and rescue workers into Manhatten may loom much larger in future years. If this doesn't trigger it the first biological or nuclear "incident" will.
Public works spending seems to run in cycles, with need triggering outlays that would have seemed impossible otherwise.
The need was there to move large military forces rapidly so the money was found.
The "defense" justification for the interstate highway program was completely bogus. It was an advertising claim to discredit any thoughtful analysis at the time the system was proposed.
Homeland Defense sounds like a good replacement.
(This is simply not going to shake $20-25 billion more out of Congress for 2nd Ave & LIRR/GCT. For one thing, it will take that much this year to keep the airlines from going out of business.)
NYC has been drained for a long time. If the rest of the country is unwilling to reinvest in NY now, when will it do so. Virtually all the other cities were cashed cowed to build the suburbs and sunbelt, then fell into ruin. NYC is one of the few viable cities left. America either wants them or it doesn't.
I don't know if we have a choice. Cities are neccessary to any high level of economic activity. There isn't enough room to spread everyone out either, and as the population grows the suburbs get absorbed, and new suburbs are built.
I work for a Civil Eng. firm, and the number of public works projects are climbing every year. Much of our work and our competitions is going into rebuilding the infrastructure of the cities. I think the tide has turned yet again.
Larry Littlefield wrote:
NYC has been drained for a long time. If the rest of the country is unwilling to reinvest in NY now, when will it do so.
My own thought is that, if the politicians could ever agree on anything, some blackmail might be in order.
For example, the city could simply say it cannot guarantee the safety/security of the UN and its diplomats, and suggest it move someplace else (no more closing the LIE and the UpE side for heads of state).
They might consider totally banning all private cars and taxis in Manhattan south of 110th St during rush hour, and let all those corporate executives and federal judges take the ultra-jammed subways or slowpoke busses.
Well, I think the UN should be expelled, with the building, and all of those embassies used as office space.
Businesses are more important than those chair warmers. If the US withdraws from the UN, it will become as useless as the League of Nations.
Do you think the US should become isolationist or world policeman if it withdraws from the UN?
Seth
No, I don't think the US should become isolationist, you don't need the UN to conduct international policy.
None moved to Long Island -- they left New York State for New
Jersey and Stamford Connecticut.
Which does not surprise me. Long Island actually does not have a big inventory of Class A office space. Moreover, the biggest concentration is around Melville in western Suffolk County, which is some distance from Manhattan and has no transit access. I wouldn't be surprised if there is no more than a couple million square feet of vacant office space in all of Nassau and Suffolk. That's no more than a quarter of the space that was in Tower One and Tower Two alone.
For the time being ,the 1 should be extended to New Lots ,the 9 during Rush Hrs run just to Chambers and 3 cut back to Atlantic,That is my idea for the A division.As for the B division.Keep the E extended to Euclid,run the C to either 2nd Ave or Bdwy/Laffayette,restablish normal Q and W service,run the R as normal to 95th street,cut the N back to either Canal Street or Whitehall Street( once tunnel is cleared out)and extend the J to Coney Island via the Sea Beach.(I know I may face critizism about these ideas but heck it sounds good.
The trouble with a C & E swap is this: Sending all those E's (far outnumber C's) in a reverse peak direction to/from Brooklyn is a waste of equipment, which is why they swpapped in the 1970's in the first place. As for running the J onto the Southern Division, and making the N a stub, I would poll Southern Brooklyn commuters as to whether they would rather go to Broad or Whitehall Street.
Why make things unnecessarily complicated?
Until Park Place on the 2/3 is cleaned up (it's apparently flooded), West Side IRT service can get no better than what it is now: 1/9 terminating at 14th, 2/3 terminating at 34th or 42nd, 4/5 or shuttles serving Brooklyn branches.
I assume that Park Place will be ready for service before the two Cortlandt Street stations (or the tracks through them) are restored.
At that point, IRT service will function like it did during a recent GO: 1/9 on its regular route from 242nd to Chambers, then via the 3 to New Lots (nights, cut back to Chambers); 2 on its regular route; 3 on its regular route from 148th only to 42nd or 34th. (Look at the track map to see why turning the 1/9 at Chambers while 2 and 3 run through isn't an option.)
As for the BMT, NYCDOT should be asked if there's some way they could possibly temporarily pause their Manhattan Bridge construction and make the tracks on both sides safely available for regular train service. If so, revive the B and D to Brooklyn, cancel the W and circle-Q, and run the diamond-Q, N, and R on the south side. Once the lower Manhattan BMT tracks are reusable, return to the service pattern of a week ago and allow the DOT to resume its work.
But that probably won't be possible. The alternate plan is for the J/Z to be extended to Bay Ridge and the M to be extended/rerouted to Stillwell via Sea Beach (sorry, West Enders). (Run shuttles at night. Weekends, the J and M should run their full extended routes; otherwise, the Q will be the only BMT route into Manhattan on weekends.) At the north end, extend the diamond-Q to 71st-Continental. Either terminate the circle-Q at 57th (letting the W run local in Astoria) or run it through to Ditmars to replace the N. Weekends, the circle-Q (the only Q running) has to run to Ditmars, since there's no W or N; once it starts, the V should temporarily run weekends, since doing otherwise would mean the loss of two connections to the 6 (F and R) on weekends.
Now for the E's southern terminus. Ideally, it would run express on 8th Avenue and terminate in the layup track between Canal and Chambers -- but it might get too crowded where the A, C, and E all have to run together. The E could terminate at 2nd Avenue until the V starts, but probably not after that. Unless the WTC terminal can be used for turning (even if the platform is unusable), it looks like our only way out is to suspend C service and run the E to Euclid. (I'd suggest sending the C to Parsons/Archer, but we already need the J in Bay Ridge. Another option, probably less desireable, is to send the C to Parsons/Archer and run the R between 95th and Whitehall center track.) To make up for lost local service on CPW (halved on weekdays, eliminated nights and weekends), run the A local in Manhattan at all times. The E can run express on 8th Avenue.
That about covers the short term. What about the long term?
Obviously the damaged stations will need to be rebuilt. IMO, since island platforms are more passenger-friendly, use 'em this time around. Someone suggested leaving Cortlandt open to the sky -- an interesting idea, if it can be worked out with whatever's done upstairs.
All WTC stations (Cortlandt 1/9, Cortlandt N/R, and WTC E) should be connected by passageways inside fare control. I always found it silly that they were connected indoors via the WTC mall but there were still unavailable for transfers.
The E's dead end is essentially directly north of the N/R at Cortlandt. Install a track connection. Ideally, allow for free-flow movements in all directions to permit the greatest flexibility in routings. Even if there are grade crossings (in particular, the northbound IND connector would cross the path of the southbound BMT mainline), new routings might be worth considering and the connection could certainly be used for occasional reroutes and non-revenue moves.
Oh, and run the 5 (or 6, when the 5 isn't running) to South Ferry outer. That may require running exclusively R-62(A)'s on the 5 and 6, so be prepared for an all-Redbird 4 fleet and lots of R-142(A)'s on the 1 and 3 (the 1 and 3 can't run Redbirds themselves, since the rollsigns have been modified to eliminate the 1 and 3 displays).
I thought the 6 couldn't get to South Ferry. Or would it switch to the express tracks before Brooklyn Bridge?
Seth
It used to run to SF late night, switching to the express tracks before the old Worth St. station. Since the 5 wasn't running during off-hours, there wasn't any problem with switching delaying trains.
Yes. Sorry I didn't make that clear.
I forgot about rush hours, when the 5 continues to Brooklyn. I don't know how to handle it then -- which is more important then, service to South Ferry (as opposed to Bowling Green a short walk away) or the boost in Flatbush Avenue service?
For personal reasons, I like the 5 to Brooklyn, but I imagine service from South Ferry would be really convenient especially during rush hour. Still, people on the east side have had to take the extra few blocks walk since about 1977, so they're used to that. The real problem seems to be getting people from the west side to South Ferry Station, and, until they can fix that tunnel, there's no way of solving that (go to Fulton 2/3 (or 1/2 now?) and change to the 4/5 to Bowling Green). So, I think they should keep the 5 going to Brooklyn during rush hours.
Seth
David J. Greenberger writes:
The E's dead end is essentially directly north of the N/R at Cortlandt. Install a track connection. Ideally, allow for free-flow movements in all directions to permit the greatest flexibility in routings. Even if there are grade crossings (in particular, the
northbound IND connector would cross the path of the southbound BMT mainline), new routings might be worth considering and the connection could certainly be used for occasional reroutes and non-revenue moves.
This is perhaps my favorite subway improvement proposal. I suspect a grade-divided connection is possible. This would add enormous flexibility to the system. It'd also be relatively cheap, particularly now, in that everything there is probably going to be opened up to the sky.
The loss of local service on the BMT would be picked up by diverting all Rutgers-St-tube service (F) up a new line via 1st Ave to 17th St, and thence west to Union Square, and then uptown under Broadway, surfacing to capture the local tracks just short of Herald Square.
The connection between the Wil.Bridge and the 6th Ave would be reactivated to pick up the 6th Av. slack; half of the BillVille service would go downtown, half uptown; some Montague tube service would still go towards Essex.
If you count it up, this amounts to an increase in service to about what one entirely new subway line would give.
This is my 'cheap' proposal.
Interesting. I'll have to think about it some.
I don't have a specific service proposal. I don't really need one; we have a chance now to build a connection and we won't for much longer. Build it now and worry about what to do with it later. It can't hurt to have one.
If it's a flying junction (is that the correct term?), BMT and IND service from the north could merge at Rector and run together to Brooklyn. For instance, the E could be extended to Coney Island (sorry, Fred) while the N terminates at Whitehall or Canal (in the former case, there might be merging delays, but all three should fit without much too trouble). The only downside is that service there is already limited by the Montague tube bottleneck; with this change, three lines will merge to one in close proximity, limiting its utility.
If it's a grade junction, either the IND or the BMT could run to Rector but not both at the same time. I'm not sure how beneficial this would be -- the C and E could run to Brooklyn (taking the place of the the N and R), but that would leave Fulton Street in Brooklyn without local service. I suppose the V could fill in there, or perhaps the C could use the Rutgers tube and continue to Euclid while the V runs to south Brooklyn (Coney Island or Bay Ridge) in place of the C.
But if nothing's build, we won't have any of these options. Now's our chance. At least dig the tunnel.
David J. Greenberger writes:
I don't have a specific service proposal. I don't really need one; we have a chance now to build a connection and we won't for much longer. Build it now and worry about what to do with it later. It can't hurt to have one.
This is exactly my sentiment. Some wild and wooly thinking needs to be done about all the current lines (including PATH) in the WTC area, just to figure out what is now suddenly possible.
Connecting the BMT Cortlandt tracks to the 8th Av. local tracks strips the the BMT of thru local service. The cheapest solution is to make the current local terminate at (a perhaps necessarily redone) City Hall Station (I would preserve the connection, however). Thru local service to Brooklyn via the Broadway BMT has ample alternatives; getting to the 8th Ave. from Brooklyn BMT lines, tho', is presently two transfers.
But, since the WTC will be open to the sky, a new terminal station in the WTC would be very nice, but this is likely pricey. We also need to think how it would relate to the IRT-WTC station, and what changes should be done there.
Is anyone at the MTA or City Hall listening?
Connecting the BMT Cortlandt tracks to the 8th Av. local tracks strips the the BMT of thru local service.
No it doesn't! A connection would still allow current service patterns to remain in place. It would also allow the TA to consider other service patterns. And a flying junction would allow some sort of hybrid.
Thru local service to Brooklyn via the Broadway BMT has ample alternatives;
No it doesn't -- without the Montague tube connecting to Broadway, we're stuck with basically the current service pattern: cram as much as possible onto the bridge and dump what's left on Nassau (from Brooklyn) or at City Hall (from Midtown/Queens).
And what happens if the DOT takes the south side tracks out of service again? Both sides are supposed to be operational in 2004, but, given the DOT's track record (sorry for the awful pun), I'll believe it when I see it.
getting to the 8th Ave. from Brooklyn BMT lines, tho', is presently two transfers.
There's always the Times Square passageway, but that's a pain and it's pretty far north. (Or go to Queens Plaza and backtrack. Not worth it if you're not going to Queens.)
That could be solved by connecting near-misses. In lower Manhattan, connect City Hall BMT to Park Place IRT and Brooklyn Bridge IRT -- the fare control area would stretch from Foley Square all the way to the old WTC E station, and if all the WTC stations are connected inside fare control (as I've proposed), it would run clear to Cortlandt IRT. In downtown Brooklyn, connect Jay IND to Lawrence BMT (that's already in the works, from what I hear) and connect Atlantic/Pacific to Fulton IND and Lafayette IND. (The express could stop at Lafayette, if desired, without causing merging delays, since the express and local share the same track at Hoyt already. One new switch would need to be installed; it's already in place in the other direction, IIRC.)
Ideally connecting passageways would be built, but it wouldn't be entirely necessary. I've suggested here before a MetroCard transfer system: Install a bank of MetroCard encoders inside fare control near the turnstiles at each station in question. You will be admitted free into a station if (a) you first entered the subway system within the past two hours and (b) you swiped at a connecting station within the past 18 minutes. (The encoders would be separate from the turnstiles so those who aren't transferring needn't swipe or wait for others to swipe.)
I've pointed out in other posts that the IND, clearly by design, made for difficult interdivisional transfers. (The BMT and IRT, OTOH, shared major transfer points wherever possible: look at Atlantic/Pacific, Times Square, and Union Square.) This decision still hurts us today.
We really are on the same wavelength. Everything you've mentioned has previously occured to me -- particularly hooking up Lawrence to Jay. I've also looked at the relationship of the Borough Hall stations to the Supreme Court Building across from Brooklyn Borough Hall -- and how one might get into Jay St. from the rear of the IRT platforms via the S.C. basement (probably too impractical, too long a hike).
As for enlarging the free transfer area in lower Manhattan -- I've wondered about that too; I suspect a major problem is the spaghetti of wires, water and sewers. I observe, however, that the transfer areas of the Broadway-Nassau/Fulton complex is an oppressive, difficult space that easily becomes crowded. Considering, however, that the east side of Church and north side of Vesey are likely all to become vacant lots, some things which were impossible a week ago are now entirely possible.
As for the thread-title topic, Montague tube service would still be there, but with all service diverted to 8th Ave. For lower Manhattan, there is no real difference between this line and the East Side IRT -- you transfer at Borough Hall or Atlantic/Pacific, or walk an extra block in Manhattan. If you are headed to Brooklyn from Midtown, you want the express anyway. I'm not disagreeing with you; I'm only saying that thru-to-Brooklyn local service on the Broadway-BMT would not be necessary. I in fact agree that service to both Broadway and 8th Ave is the best of all worlds.
I again emphasize the point that, of all subway 'extensions', this is perhaps about as cheap as it gets, with a huge benefit for a relatively small price. To not do it would be mal/mis/non-feasant of the City Fathers.
If you are headed to Brooklyn from Midtown, you want the express anyway.
Wouldn't that depend on where you're coming from?
If you're at 23rd Street and you're going to the Sea Beach, the double transfer (at 14th and at DeKalb or Pacific) is probably not worthwhile. (I'm assuming normal service, BTW.)
If you're at 8th Street and you're going to the Sea Beach, the double transfer is definitely not worth it. The transfer at Canal is down-up-down with a long passageway. And for those going from 8th Street to lower Manhattan (south of City Hall), the transfer is down-up-down-up with a long passageway and a walk the length of the Q/W platform.
I don't think eliminating the BMT local connection to Montague is a good idea. An IND connection would be useful nonetheless, so both IND and BMT can feed into Montague or even just to permit occasional reroutes and car moves.
We're agreeing with each other, but just arguing since we're having such a good time discussing a mutual passion.
Yes, I know. Considering that the average American probably wonders why we don't rip up all the tracks and use that space for parking, I'd say our disagreements are quite minor.
The problem with creating an IND/BMT split at Vescey St. is both lines are pinned from going up or down there, because they're only one level below the street and the IND A/C tracks are right below them.
Other than building a crossover at grade, it could be done if they extended the current E tracks past the bumper blocks and into the area where the mall once was, and then dipped the uptown Eighth Ave. track underneath the BMT tracks south of Fulton to merge with the current uptown N/R track between Cortlandt and Rector. Of course, if you do that, any underground plaza near Church street would be eliminated, and mall level access to the downtown N/R platform would be restricted.
Shifting the Chambers-WTC station south so that it was in line with the Cortlandt St. BMT station could work, with an underpass entrance like at Penn Station on the IRT and BMT. The IND uptown track would split off from the BMT north of Rector, duck under both tracks and then coming up to the west of the BMT at Cortlandt Street.
I suppose when you're dealing with a devistated area, anything can be done because there's nothing to get in the way anymore. The question, of course, is whether or not it is worth the effort, or if a simple pedestrian transfer tunnel between Chambers-WTC and Cortlandt St. wouldn't work just as well for a lower cost.
The Eighth Ave. has poorer transfer points and is generally in a poorer location throutgh midtown than the Broadway line is, and passengers from DeKalb south already have access to the Eighth Ave. line by transfering at West Fourth (assuming the Manny B is in full operation). Those Sea Beack or Fourth Ave. passengers who really want the Eighth Ave. line can swtich to the B or D at Pacific or DeKalb and take them to West Fourth and change. if they're going south of 59th, and they don't ave to change again at all if they're going to 59th or north.
Broadway line service could be diverted up and through Nassau st to a new Broadway line connector between CITY HALL and FULTON or BROAD ST. Along with the Second ave service[if this is the choosen route plan].Jamaica/Myrtle trains could be diverted uptown to 6TH AVE, or terminate at Chambers st[some Second ave trains would terminate at Broad st.
Connecting the Nassau Loop to the BMT Broadway line south of City Hall would really be a major undertaking.
Broadway already has the 4/5 tracks beneath it south of Vescey, while Funton has the A/C tracks and Beekman has the 2/3 tracks underneath it. That leaves Ann Street, which is possible, so long as you're willing to destroy the current Fulton St. J/M station to put in the bellmouth.
Could the connection be made just before the Fulton st station north of Broad st or between Chambers and Fulton?
If you make it south of the Fulton station, the problem is how to get it from there up to City Hall -- you would have to turn it on Broadway and run it beneath the 4/5 tracks, but above the A/C tracks as they cross Broadway at Fulton.
If you turn it north past Fulton, Ann Street is the only one that gives you access to Broadway before the 2/3 tracks cross at Beekman. And if you turn it at Pace University to cross City Hall Park to get to the BMT City Hall station, you'll have to do some engineering gymnastics to stay south of the City Hall loop on the No. 6 on the No. 6 train and then come up and meet the City Hall station's lower level tracks, because the distance between Nassau and B'way crossing City Hall park would be too short to lift one of the tracks from three levels below ground to only one level below the street at City Hall.
I think the Rutgers/DeKalb connection would be a higher priority. But more connections are better than fewer, for G.O.s and emergency reroutes if for no other reasons.
The buildings all around DeKalb and Rutgers haven't been suddenly reduced to a heap of rubble. DeKalb and Rutgers aren't two or three blocks apart on the same avenue.
I'm proposing that, specifically because we now have an opportunity, the IND and BMT be connected under the site of the WTC. We won't have the opportunity for long.
I'm proposing that, specifically because we now have an opportunity, the IND and BMT be connected under the site of the WTC. We won't have the opportunity for long.
Exactly. The window of opportunity to do such a connection is very narrow. The utility such a connection is obvious.
We can debate what service changes there would be, but the connection has to be there first.
Agreed, if for nothing but JIC.
avid
This would be the time to do it. Even if its not used right away. The compliment to it would be the DeKalb-Rutgers connection and/or the Court St. connection. The TA mueseum will just have to move to Ninth Ave.
A Grand Union of wyes at Essex and Delancey giving REAL flexibility to the system would be worthy of an examination!
I'd hold off of reducing the size of the Nassau Bowery trackage at this point.
avid
At the very least, if the Cortlandt Street station is toast, then they can lose it and maybe ease that wicked curve to be no worse than, say, the one on the "G" between Metropolitan-Grand and Nassau OR the #4 line between 167th Street and 170th Street.
wayne
Hmmm. No stops between City Hall and Rector. Is that really what you want? It's worth considering, in any case.
Well, if they want to connect the 8th Avenue stub to the "N" and "R", that would be right where Cortlandt Street station currently is. I can sort of picture a flying junction there, with the Broadway tracks branching off somewhere around Liberty Street. The "E" station platform at Chambers-WTC would replace the Cortlandt Street station.
wayne
I was wondering how the TA deals with drainage in general and how it is dealing with drainage in the WTC area tunnels. Are they letting the 1/9 tunnels flood? What about the PATH tubes? How would they go about draining them?
The TA has a PUMP train that they bring to the site and it pumps the water off the tracks and into the sewer system.
The subways (and the PATH) has a pumping system that takes water out of there. With what happened on tuesday, there is alot of water. More water than the system can handle. More than likely some of the damage done was to the pumping system itself.
If you can imagine trucks normally pounding the pavement causing a water main break, imagine 220 stories of office tower pounding the ground. The water mains in the area must be very large to supply the buildings.
Bill "Newkirk"
You Don't Drain them.
Some subway lines are above the city sewers, these, yes can be drained, most subways and the PATH are well below sea-level (duh) and the city sewer system. Such lines require pumps to clear water from the tunnels. Broken Water Mains are surely a problem. Having the electricity shut off does not help the pumps run very well either.
Elias
awfull just awfull
Glad to see the site back up and running!
-- David
Chicago, IL
I notice that some posts from yesterday afternoon are gone. I had posted something in response to heypaul's rather poignant comment that I probably couldn't say again as well as I had. Any chance of recovering these posts?
Gerry
No, if it's not in the database it's gone. The site went down so abruptly probably some changes didn't get committed and certainly didn't get backed up.
...and i just deleted some posts that i thought were unncessarily inflammatory. please people, behave yourselves
Thank you for nipping that one in the bud.
-- David
Chicago, IL
Thank you.
Seth
Hey Gerry:
Luckily I am a lazy tech guy, and keep the history of my IE pages visited. It was an extremely poignant statement, and I am glad i could repost it for you.
Jeremy
---------------------------------------
heypaul:
A very poignant and thought-provoking post.
Sad to say this event has two aspects the physical damage and the personal damage. The debris will be carted away, subways rebuilt, and new skyscrapers may rise on the site, but the lives lost will never be replaced, families will never again be whole, and our idea of safety will change forever.
Yet, there is no place in the world as resilient as New York; the city will go on and be stronger, both physically and in its mental attitude. Disaster has struck before, not in this magnitude, but surely just as devastating. The wreck at Malbone Street comes to mind as one example. This will bring out the best in New Yorkers, and make a very diverse population ONE, at least for a while!
To everyone on subtalk who lives in NYC or its suburbs:
Please accept my sympathy for your losses, and my hope for the future. I am ashamed that my city was used as a staging area for this event.
Thank You, heypaul
Gerry O'Regan
Treasurer, Boston Street Railway Association
Boston, MA
Thank you Jeremy and also to Dave for your response. Again - my heart goes out to all New Yorkers, past and present.
Gerry
I've been reading this board and sitting in my neighbourhood bar (I guess the need for real human interaction) for the last 3 days.
It looks like the people least affected by the disaster post the most venomous things.
I must report that the spirit in the city is nothing like that.
Also I contacted my PO friend, who was just on the site for 3 days, on duty and then volunteering.
Arti
Thanks for the comfort - I went to the karate dojo where I train at regularly, and just to see the regulars coming there to work out gives me a feeling of relief. I can at least account for some of them, and a few have told me that they were in the trade center just a few minutes before the first plane struck, and left to go home because they were working on the night shift. The BIG GUY was looking after them that day.
I'm still here so I'm not amongst the missing. I couldn't post anything for a while because the website was down but, I'm alive and well.
#3 West End Jeff
Given that they caught two more terrorist teams I was just trying to think of what other targets they might have been gunning for. Now I know that The Executive Mansion and The Capitol are pretty prime targets, but is there anything else with the high profile and the high human concentration required for a mass catastrophy? A bridge? Another building? A dam? A nuclear power plant?
My dad told me that after hearing of the first 3 attacks, he found himself waiting for the "BIG" one. Is there anything bigger than what was hit?
a large sports stadium has 100,000 people in it at a time.
But not at 9 am, eastern time (they couldn't have another plane crash later in the day because they had to anticipate that the US would take measures to prevent that from happening).
Seth
There's always the possibility there was/is supposed to be a "second wave" of attacks. Just before SubTalk went down on Thursday, I posted a report that the FBI was looking for a New Orleans cab driver of Middle Eastern descent, who had disappeared with his cab after reportedly making derogatory statements about the New Orleans Superdome to passengers last Sunday.
The Superdome is an 80,000 seat stadium, with a solid metal/concrete roof, unlike the "bubble roofs" at Detroit, Minneapolis and several other sites, and unlike those or an open-air stadium, if you blow that up, the solid roof comes down hard on fans even away from the blast area.
New Orleans was scheduled to have hosted San Francisco this Sunday, and I don't know if this report may have contributed to the NFL canceling all of their Sunday games. But the FBI took it seriously enough to issue an APB for all law enforcement agencies in Louisiana and surrounding states.
This touches on what is so especially evil about the attack.
If an enemy wants to destroy a symbol, they strike one fraught with symbolism--Statue of Liberty, Big Ben, Eiffel Tower. If they wanted to disrupt an economy, you go for bridges and power plants.
But these guys went to kill the most absolutely innocent civilians they could.
There are a whole series of war crimes here.
They hit all three--symbol, economic, and murder.
Seth
The U.N. is an easy target. Tall, solitary and on the water.
Considering the attitude of a majority of the delegates at the U.N. towards the U.S., attacking it would probably be low on the priorities list for the terrorists -- no point in making enemies of a lot of people who seem sympathic towards you already by blowing their ambassadors and support staffs into a million pieces...
Some news outlets were reporting on Friday evening that U.S. intelligence sources indicated that Atlanta, Boston and Richmond, VA (?) were additional targets.
Tuesday's attacks were no doubt meant to hit symbolic targets. I would have to think that the White House, the Capitol, and the Statue of Liberty were more likely targets than any of those cities. But then again, who knows how the terrorist mind works?
On Friday, the landmark John Hancock Tower in Boston closed its observatory for the forseeable future. In Saturday's Boston Globe, the reason given for the closing was that observatory visitors could potentially gain access to other parts of the building, and officials feared a bombing of some sort. My suspicion is that the stated reason, while valid, is only part of the story, and intelligence sources have uncovered information indicating that this building was indeed identified as a potential target. As a native Bostonian, that is a chilling thought.
Jim D.
hey guys..(especially the Branford bunch)..
In the spirit of the genuine outpouring of concern for everyone on this site, I "put up a flare" for all of our Seashore members to make sure they are ok.
We have received this from...(take a deep breath)...Phil Dominguez. I know what everyone may be thinking, but in the spirit of all that has gone on, I thought you guys would want to read this.
>Hello Everyone,
>
> I have been at the world trade center everyday since about 10:30 am tuesday morning assisting with the rescue efforts. For those of you who don't know, I am an NYPD Auxilliary Police officer and a NY State EMT.
>
> Tuesday in New York was "Primary Day", and I was working one of the polls as an election inspector, when the news came over the radio. I called EMS right after the second plane crashed and was asked to get to the city asap.
>After a somewhat complicated trip I met up with a Volunteer ambulance crew I knew whom drove me in to manhattan. Upon my arrival in manhattan I immediatey joined a search and rescue team composed of F.D.N.Y. personnel and other volunteers and starting searching the subway tunnels, the accesable sub-basements below the world trade center. While searching for people under there, all the firemen started yelling, "LETS GO, IT'S GONNA COLLAPSE, so my partner and I started running up a flight of esculators that everyone else was going up blindly, which ended up leading to the corner where the "Century 21" department store is and turned around for the first time and saw what was left of the world trade center . It was almost impossible to see far through the dense smoke/dust.
>
>The Scene in Downtown manhattan was out of a horror/disaster movie. Bodies and body parts were littered all over the area. Dust and wreckage was all over the place,
>Most of the sick, injured and dead were removed within 24 hours, although there are still a lot of bodies being removed. Many people have been left homeless and need lots of support. The construction crews have been removing debris at a very fast rate rate and things have become very organized. The very heavy rain that started last night has made things difficult. If you can donate ANYTHING, it would be very usefull, for example, golf carts, food, clothing, medical supplies, time to help out, anything and everything is helpfull. Thanks for everything.
>
>-Philip Dominguez #4225
Thank you for sharing. I hope you don't mind, but I took the liberty of forwarding Phil's message to some fellow Shore Line members who aren't SubTalkers. Let's keep Phil in our thoughts and prayers as he risks his own safety to aid the recovery effort.
Not at all...these thoughts for Phil are a far cry from what they usually are :)
Amen to that ;).
Jeremy, thanks for the report from Phil. Alot of the crew from NYCT where he interned during the summer was wondering what became of him.
Now I can tell them he was at 'Ground Hero' during the WTC attack.
Glad to hear he made out OK.
BMTman
Does anyone have any info to this question? I recall a report from FOX-TV in which they stated that the WTC PATH station is completely destroyed; a conflicting report from AP states it has sustained no damage other than water and rubble accumulation. Please post answers here @ SubTalk, not by e-mail.
Thanks,
Tunnel Rat
Before SubTalk lost power and the site went black, I posted here that the IRT Cortland St. station has rubble on the tracks and that steel girders are bent.
I heard that both Rector St. stations aren't destroyed, yet there was some conflicting reports that they suffered damage. Sooner or later, the press will probably be let down into these stations if possible and we will learn more.
Bill "Newkirk"
Any word on the N/R at Courtlandt and can you confirm the WTC Path station is gone completely?
"Any word on the N/R at Courtlandt and can you confirm the WTC Path station is gone completely?"
NewFlyer857,
Please check my post #264634, that's the latest from the Daily News on the subway station damage.
Bill "Newkirk"
Nothing offical!
This is based on reports from this post and "The other side of the tracks", nyc.transit and what I heard at work:
North of Chambers St on the 1, 2 and 3 lines Damage was mostly made by water. Tuesday evening there was a water condition at Franklin St that flooded the roadbed. The water was supposed to be the runoff from FD at Ground Zero.
South of Chambers St on the 1, It is SAID to be a tunnel collapse.
At Park Place more water damage. The lowest point of the subway in the area.
WTC on the PATH. I've read many different reports that people were down there. One team found the station on the whole in good shape except for water and fumes. Other search teams walking thru the train tunnel from New Jersey were stopped by floor to ceiling water at the point where the tunnel is at it's lowest. Another report said the station itself was still there. Still another said it was flationed.
WTC on the E at least the platform was slightly damaged.
None of what I've said is offical. I'm probably wrong about some of my infomation. I might have more rumor than fact here. But at this time this is all I know.
From Saturday's edition:
Subway tunnels around WTC Tested For Safety
Seems like the IRT Cortandt St. station is in really bad shape. I wonder if there are any abandoned trains in this area ?
Also, I was told that the IRT Cortlandt St. station is below ground zero. Is this true ?
Bill "Newkirk"
According to the Daily News, the 1 and 9 south of Chambers Street (which ran directly under the WTC) is destroyed. Rumour has it that $1 billion will be required to rebuild it. We can assume the PATH is destroyed.
The 2/3 at Park Row is flooded due to a water main break. No telling how much damage was done.
The News said the the IND and IRT 4/5 lines, including the E terminal at WTC, were merely full of rubble and dust with no structural damage. We may be OK if nothing else falls down. The structural condition of surrounding buildings is a BIG issue as to whether or not what remains of Downtown is in a position to recover.
The N and R lines are supposedly filled with rubble, and the Rector and Cortlandt Street stations are wrecked, but the News said the tunnels were undamaged. If so, a quick fix might be doable -- if nothing else goes wrong.
Brooklyn has been pretty much cut off for a week, with remaining lines backed and commutes like hell. This is what I feared would happen if the Manhattan Bridge were lost to trains, only worse.
It would appear that all of the subway lines and tunnels, except the #1 line to South Ferry, can be restored to service within the foreseeable future. This restoration will be done only in conjunction with the certification that buildings above them are not unstable.
The $1 billion estimate for the #1 line, due to damage at Cortland Street, may be a bit overblown. But even if it isn't, NY just got $20 billion from Congress to effect repairs like this - so if it costs a billion, we'll spend it.
As for PATH, the destruction is to the station and tunnel under the building (with flooding into the river tube as well). When new buildings are launched on this site (and that's when, not if ), the tube can be pumped out, and a new PATH station can be integrated into that design. The federal reconstruction aid, along with the insurance payout from insurers and reinsurers (Munich Re and Zurich Re made announcements Thursday and yesterday regarding claims) will provide
the needed boost.
Whoever could have guessed that the Montague Street tunnel route would go, instead of the Manhattan Bridge.
(Whoever could have guessed that the Montague Street tunnel route would go, instead of the Manhattan Bridge.)
I'm just glad we have the Nassau Loop. My track maps are back in Lower Manhattan, but I assume that the Broadway Local can terminate at City Hall for months if necessary. They'll have to extend the J and M to replace the N and R.
The latest rumor on the job is that the J will be extended to 95th St., and the M will run down the Sea Beach to Stillwell.
Of course, that means 480' trains for 4th Avenue and Seabeach trains.
Shall we call it the RJ !?
Yup, and add an MN.
[My track maps are back in Lower Manhattan, but I assume that the Broadway Local can terminate at City Hall for months if necessary.]
There are track maps on this site.
Looking at them, it looks impossible to terminate at City Hall unless thet open the lower level. How much work would that be.
What about swapping Q's to Astoria and W to Continental, local in Manhattan. It's relatively convenient transfer at canal to either 6 or J and M servicing stations within walking distance.
Arti
That would be THE best plan with the M via the Sea Beach and the J to 95.
To do that some equipment is going to have to move around, putting more of the remaining 60' cars on the revised J and M to handle the longer routes. Some service from Brooklyn to Whitehall could also be possible.
They can do as they do with GOs. Trains reverse at City Hall but last stop for passengers is Canal Street.
But if you stop at City Hall on the upper level you've got to do a double reverse -- wrong rail on the downtown local track back towards Canal to the switch, then on to the lower level downtown track to reverse to the lower level uptown track, and then back to the uptown local track. It's easier just to end the run at Canal and tell passengers to change for the 6/J/M/Z to get to City Hall.
That's essentially what he said.
If the lower level had more than one staircase they may have been able to open it for passengers. But one staircase isn't safe.
I'm just glad we have the Nassau Loop. My track maps are back in Lower Manhattan, but I assume that the Broadway Local can terminate at City Hall for months if necessary. They'll have to extend the J and M to replace the N and R.
The Nassau Loop can't platform 600 foot trains. The Eastern District can't handle 75 foot cars. Did somebody tell me there were unreasonable costs for flexibility a while back?
There may be better solutions depending on how much of the local tracks south of Rector are available.
No availability: Run M to Canal and J to Chambers. Terminate N and R at Chambers. Double platform N&R trains at Broad, Fulton and Chambers. No interference with J&M service. Use the old Nassau loop tracks to relay. This will involve grade crossing north of Chambers for soutbound trains. That's why M terminates at Canal.
Whitehall Station available: Run M to Canal and J to Chambers. Terminate R at Chambers. Double platform and relay as above. Terminate N at Whitehall center track.
Tracks south of Rector Station available: Run M to Chambers and J to Broad. Using switches south and north of Whitehall, it should be possible to relay 2 services at Whitehall. It will be tricky. Forget about getting passengers out of cars for relay - use extra motorman. If it is proven that this can be done without backups into Montague St tunnel, then extend M to Bay Pkwy.
Additional: Get Lex service to South Ferry.
You'll probably have to terminate uptown N&R service at Canal.
That's all overkill. Relaying trains from both ends at various places along Nassau Street is not necessary. Run the R42's to 95th Street and C.I. They can always put 6 car R68's on the C, and break the draw-bars on some 4-car sets.
They can always put 6 car R68's on the C, and break the draw-bars on some 4-car sets.
By Monday morning?
Well, I keep hearing the J goes to 95th, and the M either goes down the West End or the Seabeach. They'll be enough 60' cars around to do that. We'll probably see GOH R32's on the Eastern Division for the first time.
The J would need more cars and can use ENY cars exclusively. The M could give cars to the J and in turn use some R40 slants from CIYD made excess by the lack of N service on the Brooklyn end.
(The J would need more cars and can use ENY cars exclusively. The M could give cars to the J and in turn use some R40 slants from CIYD made excess by the lack of N service on the Brooklyn end.)
There are plenty of 60 foot cars, but they would have to be reallocated from lines that can take 75 foot cars, and parts and expertise would have to be moved around. The question is now long the N/R tracks under Church Street will be out of action, and if it is worth reorganizing the system on that basis.
If it's for the long term, you'd want to maximize through service on the Nassau Loop since it has capacity Downtown.
Cars were short, and will be more so. I understand the TA lost two B division trains at the WTC.
Is the R-143 test train in usable condition for passenger service?
If not, could it be in usable condition in a week?
If and when more information becomes available about possible loss of equipment and the units affected, please pass it along at your convenience. It is a trivial piece of information, in light of everything else, but I would like to keep my records up to date.
thank you in advance
wayne (wayne@nycsubway.org)
My info is that there are some trains trapped down there which cannot be moved. There is no physical damage to those cars.
[According to the Daily News, the 1 and 9 south of Chambers Street (which ran directly under the WTC) is destroyed. Rumour has it that $1 billion will be required to rebuild it. ]
For $1B would it be worth it? The area is very well served by other lines. 3 could permanently run to Times Square, 1 to Brooklyn.
Arti
It most certainly would. The #1 line provides a direct link to the ferries, without need for buses, and the rebuilt transit stations can be integrated into rebuilding plans.
Remember that budget is NOT a huge issue here - since $20 billion was just voted especially for NY infrastructure from the feds, in addition to $20 billion to fight terrorism.
I agree, you need it for access to the ferry. In any event, they run both the local and express pretty close to capacity down the west side, so you need a place for the local to terminate in any event. Operationally, running full service on the west side IRT is going to be very difficult with the southern end out.
Plus 1/9 is the line recommended by tour operators for idiot tourists who'd otherwise get lost . . . .
And what do we do with the 2 line if the 3 is cut back to Times Square? End the 2 there also (running the 5 to Flatbush 24/7) or make it a permanent local? No, with the 1 providing direct service to the ferries and PATH, it's an important line and Courtlandt/WTC needs to be rebuilt and returned to service.
Again, This is a RUMOR. I do not know how much, if any is true. These are the reroutes that everyone in TA is saying will happen.
E-Parsons to Euclid (2nd Ave Midnights)
N-Susdended
W-Replaces N in Brooklyn on Sea Beach. Stillwell to Astoria
M-Replaces W on West End. Metropoliton to Stillwell.
Q Circle- Extended to 71-Continental to replace R.
J-Extended to 95th Street to replace R.
I guess we will find out by next week how much of this is true, If any.
Mark W.
how about the 1-9 train routes ??
The Rumer for the No.1/9, 2,3 Lines
NO 9 Train Service
No.1 service 242 Street LOCAL to New Lots Ave
No.2 SAME (May run Local from 34 St to Chambers)
No.3 148 St EXPRESS to 34 St-Penn Station
That is the rumor in the A division. The way things look, the 1 might be going to New Lots for a while. IDK about permanent.
"how about the 1-9 train routes ?? "
Forget about service to South ferry for who knows when. As reported here, the #1 will be travel south of Chambers St. following the #3 route. Things is really messed up here.
Bill "Newkirk"
>N-Susdended
I think still Astoria to somewhere in Manhattan. Otherwise I heard the same thing.
The official changes are outlined on the MTA Web site; click on "Emergency Info NYCT".
At least when it comes to the E. Sometimes they change stuff on an hourly basis.
Looks like the R is almost back to normal, is it Via the bridge?
Would have to be.
I spent the day in Coney Island changing signs. Anticipated service for Monday AM is as follows:
E normal from Parsons/Archer to Canal, then bypass Chambers and all local stops to Euclid.
A normal, but bypasses Chambers.
J Parsons/Archer to 95 St via Willy-B and Montague St tubes, local on 4th Ave.
M Metropolitan to Stillwell-N via Willy-B and Montague St tubes, local on 4th Ave.
W normal service from Stillwell to Astoria, but remains local in Manhattan and Queens.
Q One of the Q shapes will be extended to Continental Ave.
N and R service is suspended.
For those who whine about sign changing - it took me 30 minutes to change all the signs on an 8 car train from M Metropolitan Ave/Bay Parkway to J Jamaica Center/95 St. And that was with no one bothering me to ask silly questions.
Why not send the M express in Brooklyn weekdays? The N ran express weekdays.
IMO, the diamond-Q should be extended to Queens (weekdays, of course). It has a shorter running time than the circle-Q, which starts further south and makes all stops.
I got this information off of harry becks message borad that the one of the PATH tubes are under water as you approach the wtc center. one can only
wonder how many path trains were in the wtc center station & in the tunnels on thier way to the other station on the new jersey side station etc ....
( the name escapes me as of now ) and that the 1-9 train is only 1/2 operational near the wtc region & the south fery loop.( not operational ) etc...
is it true that the 1-9 lower manhattan area tunnes is in horrible shape & will require many years of repair to bring it back up to what
it formerly was etc.. & that the rebiuld will take several years to do ??? maybe you have some information on this ...
I watch the TV channels that we see here live watching the rescue operations & this is the top most of importance & the subway can wait
until later but & as of now it sems that i also will have to probably delay my birthday 50th celebration & not be in nyc to bring it in in style like
i wanted to including shooting the 1-9 inside the motormans cab by sepcial invitation of a very nice irt motorman !!
As we watched the horror of last tuesday it was very depressing & i wondered if i showed up shooting subway videos etc would i be hasseled
& i guess icould understand it with all of the tension from the disaster & total tradegy that we have all seen take place this week !!
( sigh )
I got this information off of harry becks message borad that the one of the PATH tubes are under water as you approach the wtc
center. one can only
wonder how many path trains were in the wtc center station & in the tunnels on thier way to the other station on the new jersey
side station etc ....
( the name escapes me as of now ) and that the 1-9 train is only 1/2 operational near the wtc region & the south fery loop.( not
operational ) etc...
is it true that the 1-9 lower manhattan area tunnels is in horrible shape & will require many years of repair to bring it back up to
what
it formerly was etc.. & that the rebiuld will take several years to do ??? maybe you have some information on this ...
I watch the TV channels that we see here live watching the rescue operations & this is the top most of importance & the subway
can wait
until later but & as of now it sems that i also will have to probably delay my birthday 50th celebration & not be in nyc to bring it
in in style like
i wanted to including shooting the 1-9 inside the motormans cab by sepcial invitation of a very nice irt motorman !!
As we watched the horror of last tuesday it was very depressing & i wondered if i showed up shooting subway videos etc would i
be hasseled
& i guess icould understand it with all of the tension from the disaster & total tradegy that we have all seen take place this week !!
( sigh )
Salaam,
As far as PATH WTC is concerned, it has been reported that the tunnels were filled with water up to the top. They are pumping out the tunnels yet water still remains. Don't know what the condition of the platforms are. In fact, if you go to their website www.panynj.gov you may find a pre disaster aarticle about a multi million dollar rehab of the WTC station.
As per my posts, the IRT Cortlandt St, station is in really bad shape. Rubble on the tracks and bent girders. Probably because they can't see past the rubble, the TA speculated that the station may have collapsed. Still no confirmation about the two Rector St. stations. Rumours tell of destrcution, but no real confirmation yet.
Bill "Newkirk"
Well, remember that people will generally err on the side of caution here. Reconstruction aid is coming. The 1 and 9 will no doubt involve extensive rebuilding of stations and the tunnel portion under WTC - but budget will not be a problem, for once. I expect that the actual repairs will happen faster than we think.
But they cannot begin until the site is fully cleared. First things first - there's still a rescue and recovery effort going on.
a very horible thing has just happened & i always keep this in prespective always abouve the irt line 1-9....
i may have to delay until next summer to come to nyc because of this ........................ ( sigh ) ............
the rescue is being shown on TV here & they are really taking care of business big time the rescue and recovery effort !
thank you & a speedy recovery nyc my home sweet home & my birthplace 11 03 51 ...... ( sigh ) .......sad ............:(
:( :( ..............................................
Salaam, NYC and PATH will come back better than ever. BTW, I got to ride a PATH >>> RAILFAN WINDOW<<<< when I went to Hoboken to show off our NRHS chapter's locomotives> Yes, Salaam, they are fun.
way to go a big comeback this summer maybe rent a space on the museum train too !!!
wooooooooopeeeeee!!!
Path tubes will be back.
I saw a post Thursday expressing concern over the salt water against the Cast Iron tube walls. Cast iron is one of the best materials in this instance as it corrodes very slowly even in salt water. In addition, it is somewhat malleable which is a tremendous advantage.
The "crawls" on the bottom of TV screens are reporting that PATH service is "normal", but just what they mean isn't clear. The 33 St. lines may be normal, but what of the trains that used to go to the WTC? What about Exchange Place station in Jersey City, which was one stop from the WTC? Can trains be turned around there? If so, is it open, with trains running from Newark (and maybe Hoboken) to Exchange Place?
From the PATH web page:
Path Service Schedule For Thursday, 9/13/01 Beginning At 6:00 A.m.
Date: September 12, 2001
Press Release Number: 131-01
Subcategory: PATH
PATH will be running 3 services: Hoboken to 33rd Street, Newark to 33rd Street and Journal Square to Hoboken.
The Hoboken to 33rd Street Service will make stops at Christopher Street, 9th Street, 14th Street, 23rd Street and 33rd Street.
The Newark to 33rd Street Service will make stops at Harrison, Journal Square, Grove Street, Pavonia/Newport, Christopher Street, 9th Street, 14th Street, 23rd Street and 33rd Street.
The Journal Square to Hoboken Service will make stops at Grove Street, Pavonia/Newport and Hoboken.
Passengers going to Exchange Place are encouraged to travel to the Pavonia/Newport Station, and transfer to NJ Transit's Hudson Bergen Light Rail Service, or travel to Grove Street, and walk to the Exchange Place Station area.
Fare collection (including QuickCards) is in effect as of 3 a.m. 9/13/01.
Jersey City firefighters said the water main break flooded the WTC station, i hope the Hudson rail tunnels are still intact. ANY NYC subway tunnels in that area were rocked by the seismic disturbances of Tuesday's attacks.
As of Sat. night I understand that Rector St. has collapsed and I have 2 reports about Cortlandt St:
1) a hole straight down to the tracks (size I don't know)
2) a firetruck on the tracks
choose which one you want to beleive but those 2 stations will be OOS for awhile.
Also starting Monday they are talking about the 1 going to New Lots.
To those of you trying to reach me at my email address, it has fallen victim
to power issues at Telehouse, 25 B'way. FDNY shut down their emergency
generator when it began to emit smoke from overheating. I can be reached
for comment via replies to these messages, or at heisenstein@(Abbreviate
Staten Island).rr.com
I am attempting to put together a comprehensive list of all PUBLICLY
REPORTED and OFFICIALLY RELEASED information. I am doing my best to release
only ACCURATE information from sources public, official, and trusted unnamed
sources. I again apologize for duplicating information. Most of this
update will be to add names of KNOWN MISSING that have been PUBLICLY
REPORTED. Also note the change of unit type associated with L18. Unit is
actually SQ18. Confirmed LODD are included in the signature paragraph at
the bottom of this message. Staten Island is belived to be the hardest hit
by the loss of men, not only in the FDNY but also the NYPD and WTC
employees, as the borough has the highest per-capita or FDNY and NYPD
workers of the city. It is important to note that the number of men lost
per company is higher than the regular duty crew because the alarm came in
at change of shift; many FFs who were about to go off-duty for the day
responded with their soon to be on-duty brothers.
FDNY is currently operating on a 24-on/24-off shift.
I will be posting this on a text-only web site shortly. Funeral info can be
found at the following link: http://www.nyfd.com/arrangements11.html
If anyone can get me a rundown of the units assigned as of 1000hrs 9/11/01,
it would be appreciated. I still do not have a web host for this
information, so I will continue to distribute it in this manner.
Additional info for LODD at the scene. Notes on the confirmed missing:
Capt. Timothy Stackpole was a member of Brooklyn's Ladder Co 103, and was
seriously injured in the flashover 10/5/98 that claimed the lives of
Capt. Scott LaPiedra and Lt. Jimmy Blackmore.
Rescue 4 lost two members in the Father's Day tragedy, FF Harry Ford and FF
Brian Fahey
Official reports as of Friday morning were 350 FDNY, 23 NYPD, 42 PANYNJPD
personnel missing. 5 members of the FDNY are confirmed LODD.
FOX NEWS reports that the winner of their 'Murder in Small Town X' series, a
FF from the Bronx assigned to a ladder company in Chinatown, is among the
missing.
Division 3, Manhattan (Many of the missing companies belong to this
division; missing 63; I do not have the command structure of this division,
please email if you do)
It is presumed that the entire on-duty crews of the following companies were
lost:
Rescue 1, Manhattan
Rescue 2, Brooklyn
Rescue 3, Harlem/Bronx
Rescue 4 (Apparatus recovered; missing 8), Queens
Rescue 5 (Apparatus recovered; 11 men missing,12 men responded, 1 with a
second piece of apparatus known as the Tactical Support Unit. FF Bill Spade
spent 3 days in the hospital, and is medically relieved from full duty),
Staten Island
Field Comm 1 (This vehicle is usually used as an on-scene command center),
Brooklyn
Ladder 9, Manhattan
Engine 10
Ladder 10 (E10 and L10 are 'Ten House' on Liberty Street. These companies
are first-due at boxes 8087 and 8084, located directly across the street
from hte scene; additionally, previously posted info on the apparatus serial
SL990006-This is the rig assigned to L10)
Squad 1 (Apparatus destroyed), Brooklyn
Squad 18 (Previously reported as Ladder 18; Ladder 18 crew is OK), Manhattan
Engine 226, Brooklyn
Engine 33, Manhattan
Ladder 25, Manhattan (9 members)
Missing Men, with company and company borough:
FF Nicholas Rossomando, Rescue 5, Staten Island
FF Leonard Ragaglia, Engine 54, Manhattan
FF Carl Molinaro, Ladder 2, Manhattan
PO James Leary, 6th Pct NYPD, Manhattan (last reported hauling SCBA
equipment to the upper floors)
FF Jeff Giordano, Ladder 3, Manhattan
PFF Michael Cammarata, Ladder 11, Manhattan
PO Christopher Amoroso, PANYNJPD, WTC
FF Mike Clarke, Engine 8 or Ladder 2, Manhattan
FF James Giberson, Ladder 35, Manhattan
FF Timothy McSweeney, Ladder 3, Manhattan
FF Steven Olsen, Ladder 35, Manhattan
FF John Tierney, Ladder 9, Manhattan
Asst. Chief Gerald Barbra, Citywide Tour Commander
FF Peter Carroll, Squad 1, Brooklyn
FF Robert Cordice (possibly 'Gordice'). Squad 1, Brooklyn
FF Michael Fiore, Rescue 5, Staten Island
FF Joe Mascali, Rescue 5, Staten Island
Capt. Louis Modafferu, Rescue 5, Staten Island
FF Chuck Margiotta, Rescue 5, Staten Island
VFF Keith Roma, Fire Patrol 2, Manhattan (VFF for Richmond Engine Co. 1,
Staten Island)
FF Jeff Giordano, Ladder 3, Manhattan
PO George Howard, PANYNJPD, Kennedy Airport
9/13/01 NY Daily News has shown photos of the destruction, including
overturned
ambulances belonging to private hospitals, private ambulance corps, and the
FDNY
9/14/01 Staten Island Advance published photos of FFs from Engine 28,
Manhattan, climbing stairs as people evacuate the building. One of the
evacuees took the photos.
--
5-5-5-5
Dept. Chaplin Fr. Mychal Judge (1626hrs 9/12/01)
First Deputy Commissioner William Feehan (1235hrs 9/12/01)
Chief of Department Peter J. Ganci Jr. (1225hrs 9/12/01)
Battallion Chief Raymond Downey, Special Operations Command
FF Raymond R. York, Jr. E286, Brooklyn
FF Glenn E. Wilkinson E238, Brooklyn
FF Daniel Fuhr E216, Brooklyn
FF Roburt Curatolo L16, Manhattan
Sept. 11, 2001 from injuries sustained at Manhattan box 8087 transmitted at
0847 hours Sept. 11, 2001.
Non-FDNY Personnel
Yamel Merino EMT; Metro Care Ambulance Co. (*)
Missing-Presumed Deceased
Capt. Timothy Stackpole (Unk. Co.)
Current Funeral Arrangements
http://www.nyfd.com/arrangements11.html
http://subtalk.nycsubway.org/cgi-bin/subtalk.cgi?read=264240
When I am called to duty, God
Where ever flames may rage,
Give me the strength to save some life
Whatever be its age.
Help me embrace a little child
Before it is to late
Or save an older person from
The horror of that fate.
Enable me to be alert and hear the weakest shout
And quickly and efficiently
To put the fire out
I want to fill my calling and
To give the best in me,
To guard my every neighbor and
Protect his property.
And if according to my fate
I am to lose my life
Please bless with your protecting hand
My children and my wife.
-Author Unknown, from the Worcester Memorial.
Needless to say, Tuesday was a scary day for those of us who work in Lower Manhattan. I work at the foot of Broadway and had to walk out through the dust and soot; my wife was trapped for hours at the FED as debris rained down. The place we loved, and spent almost our whole careers, is now Beruit, and will be for years.
I had thought I remembered that Dave Pirmann worked at the WTC, and when the internet finally came up and www.nycsubway.org did not, I thought he might be gone. Glad you aren't, Dave. Let us know if you become unemployed and can no longer support the site financially.
Was anyone else from this board there? Might anyone else be gone?
Fortunately, no one I know directly was killed, though many had to escape during the disaster. But Windsor Terrace is full of firemen. The ones I am closest to -- they live next door and two doors down -- are alive. One was just promoted out of a Lower Manhattan house, and the other was off duty at the time. All the other firemen from that house -- all their friends -- are dead. So are a couple of parents from the kids elementary school, my mother-in-law's cousin, etc.
I'm here, some of my neighbors are not. To quote from today's Times:
From blue-collar Long Island suburbs like Ronkonkoma and West Babylon, where city firefighters commuted to work [...] there was no escape from anguish.
[...]
At Metro-North, Long Island Rail Road and New Jersey Transit parking lots, there were cars that had not moved since Tuesday.
That's about where we're at.
Full article.
I'm grateful for all of us and ours who are OK, but even that great blessing is limited comfort.
I'm alive, the only family member missing is my cousin's husband's mother who was in one of those planes. Very saddening.
To All My Transit Friends & Colleagues Who Are Concerned:
This message is to let you know that I am alive and well after I had escaped the area where the WTC destruction area had occurred last Tuesday. Needless to say, I am slowly recovering from the shock and disbelief (and perhaps now uncertainity) of this attack on innocent victims not only in New York City, but also towards our country as well.
As a sobering and somber thought, I was in the basement of 5 World Trade Center, picking up my usual morning newspapers, exactly one hour before the first plane hit the north tower building. Then afterward, I was able to put a bill payment inside a mailbox across the street from WTC.
My work office is currently located within the immediate area of WTC, and although the building I am assigned to received some vibrations and debris from the incident, I managed to escape from the vicinity with no physical harm. As I was able to go to a secure location far away from the destruction, all I was able to view was a thick gray cloud that was coming out where the Twin Towers used to be.
Right now, I am currently working on a temporary basis at an office in Kew Gardens (Queens) for the time being until things should be back to normal (or sort of at that). As I have told others, all I know now is that I will never ever see the same neighborhood, businessess and especially people that I have encountered for so long.
As I regain my full mental strength and spirit, I will again and respond to any posts and messages that are related to our common interests that unite us. In other words...this "Mr. R-10" is still alive, and is still here!!!
-William A. Padron
Good new all around. I know of you. But are you the R-9 guy or the R-10 guy. That one has been stumped. Have a great day.
William Padron is the #1 R-10 fan around. I'm second banana.
At Metro-North, Long Island Rail Road and New Jersey Transit parking lots, there were cars that had not moved since Tuesday.
And some commuters are probably thinking that more station parking permits will be available soon.
I'm here, but I was up in NJ riding the HBLR on Saturday. Some said
when you get off at Exchange Place, take a little walk towards the river to see the skyline of Manhatten. I failed to do that. That would have been my last look at the WTC Towers. I am upset beyond words at the horror we now face. That loss of human life, and property
is beyond belief. The IRT lines will have to be rebuilt, but at a staggering cost.
Chuck Greene
True. I am grateful the President and Congress have voted to give NY the money:
$20 billion to rebuild (not including insurance payouts)
$20 billion to go get the bad guys.
That "go get the bad guys" $20 billion includes the $2.5 billion bailout for the airlines.
There could be a silver lining in this whole tragedy for the transportation business. AMTRAK. If the feds dare give one red cent to bail out private companies (airlines) who do not have to build and directly maintain their stations (airports), the rail transit boosters must unite and raise hell with our elected officials for more AMTRAK funding, repair the NY/NJ tunnels, the Baltimore tunnels, and to stifle the nonsense-ical idea that AMTRAK must be self sufficient by 200whatever. I am sure that many people who were "on the fence" about flying will never get on a plane for the rest of their lives. Plus the extra time needed to arrive at the airport before departure, could make flying to certain destinations impractical. Boston to NY and NY to Washington AMTRAK ridership has already skyrocked and will continue to do so. Hopefully, additional demand for long distance service will force AMTRAK's hand to add more service/routes and buy more cars in conjunction with the additional funding secured by the congressmen whose constituents will be served.
Indeed, Amtrak is one the very few transit carriers (the other being Greyhound) that stands to gain from this. Airlines already reeling from the faltering economy will suffer from great decline in these coming months, as the shell shock from the Hijackings takes hold on travelers. You heard today that Continental is cutting 1/5th of its flights and 20,000 workers, while American and Northwest is contemplating slashes of their own.
Right now, and from now on, the politicians had better be rethinking how they deal with mass transit. Because the travelers are alredy showing their opinion on things.
It was reported on the news (TV) that because of the recent events in NYC and Washington DC, ridership on Amtrak has soared.
Bill "Newkirk"
I regard any politician that continues to hold Amtrak's feet to the fire about "self-sufficiency" to be an American traitor and dictator and ought to take a one-way flight to Argentina to reside with Hitler's friends.
President Theodore Roosevelt once wrote that "only those who are fit to live are those who are not afraid to die and none is fit to die who shrinks from the joy of life, the duty of life, for both life and death are part of the same Great Adventure". Those who perished in the attacks of September 11th have embarked on that Adventure and we can only wish that fate had deemed them stay. Yet in passing they have not left us empty for in their absence there lives their memories. The horror of their demise will not fade from our thoughts but who they were and what they meant to us will live on in our hearts and our souls, and we can take comfort in the knowledge that one day they and their loved ones will be reunited as they, as will all of us, one day pass into that void which is the Great Adventure.
Eric Dale Smith
Eric, maybe you should be writing on the Editorial Page of The Times instead of the current crew and they should be writing the train books.
Quoting from "Harry Potter And The Sorcerers Stone" page 297 US Edition: "To the well-organanized mind, death is but the next great adventure." Albus Dumbledore 1991, JK Rowling 1997
We've had years of "if it bleeds, it leads" local news reporting, which has blown every sad incident and non-incident (emergency -- three inches of snow!) out of proportion.
However, people around here believe the news media is really not giving a full picture of how bad this is, and will continue to be for years, perhaps because the Mayor and others have decided to let the bad news trickle out. Hence the whole emphasis on the rescue, with five recovered several days ago, rather than the current and future circumstances of those who have lost family members. In addition there are plenty of horrible details I've heard from cops and firemen that aren't on the news. The news hasn't reported on the corporations that have already left the city -- I heard it from people who work in the companies, though the Times reported on a couple.
The rah rah "we will rebuild" statements understate the difficulty, resolve and help that will be required. The "we won't let this affect us" statements out of places like St. Louis do not acknowledge that tens of thousands will have their lives crushed, and hundreds of thousands will have their lives diminished, by this incident, with most (but not all) all of them around the NY area.
New York is not going to go away, but it is entirely possible that the trend to dispersion that's been masked by the City's recent vitality will accelerate.
Companies are questioning the wisdom of concentrating huge staffs in a single location. Of necessity, they're leasing available space in New Jersey, Long Island and Midtown. By the time substantial new office space becomes available they may be comfortable enough in their new locations to move only limited staff back.
At least it would seem that most if not all jobs will stay in the region.
There are a few lessons here that we might take to heart.
Be cautious as to how much space is built, where it is built, and in what time frame. Few people seem to recall that the building of the WTC added so much commercial space so fast that it was a drug on the New York office space market for years. NYS had to take substantial space in the buildings just to keep them from being a major drag on the PA itself. So, aside from the security consideration, maybe they should limit the amount of space they rebuild in the near term to that desired by committed tenants, plus 10%.
Ironically, Jersey City may be an unusually attractive due to HBLR while the City (and NYS in general) let progressive transit languish. Maybe the City should be considering construcion of some kind of circulator system, light rail or whatever, that makes it more feasible for major office space to be built and accessible in Brooklyn and Queens. It should be no more difficult to to travel between Brooklyn and Lower Manhattan or Midtown and Queens for business than to travel between Downtown and Midtown.
You raise some interesting points, but I don't buy the "progressive" transit bit. HBLR is great, and it will work well in NJ, but that kind of thing doesn't replace the subway. Not in NY, anyway.
As to density, well, don't make the mistake of generalizing from one incident. Risk assessment is a tricky business, and one which most people misunderstand. Airplane gets blown up? Stop flying; it's too risky.
Dispersing businesses makes sense in war time, when were in constant danger of being bombed. In peacetime it's destructive, inefficient and lowers the quality of life. Now, I would agree that the WTC took a long time to fill. So perhaps a more flexible plan is needed when rebuilding. But remember that the WTC offered space efficiency, energy efficiency, and even helped in the fight against air and water pollution with its emphasis on efficiency of resources.
This tragedy will force re-assessments of how we deal with the world, but we can hurt ourselves more by drawing some wrong conclusions about density. As we transition from the post-traumatic period here, cooler heads will prevail and a rational rebuilding plan will take hold.
The recent $40 billion rescue package passed swiftly by the feds will help NY rebuild. Ultimately, a rebuilt subway, PATH and a new Center (even if it looks much different than it used to) on some of the best real estate in the Northeast is the key to our future economic health. The silver lining in the cloud includes the opportunity to do some really cool, new things with the site now that we have to start from scratch.
The tragedy will have a long-term, deleterious effect on NY that we cannot begin to imagine. Companies will scale back construction plans involving large, visible buildings. Who will want to work in a target? Will the NYTimes and AOL-Time Warner really want to have showcase headquarters anmore that a free-standiong, tall and wide-open to kamikazes? Will they have the money to build them, given the recession that is sure to occur? Will New Yorkers want to do anything that involves being in a potential terrorist target -- go to ball games, well-known stores, theaters, etc? Will the job market, the real estate market, the financial industry, the tourist industry, ever rebound? Will people even want to live here? Does it make sense to expand transit if ridership plummets? This will affect the 2d Ave. subway, the LGA extension, and many more.
Sure, there is money to rebuild downtown. But will there be money left over, not to mention the need or desire, to do anything else for a long, long time?
I wonder if there will really be a recession. Foreign markets which fell at first turned around when they saw our response to this tragedy. If there are any WWII vets out there speak up about how America pulled together after Pearl Harbor. Also if there are any Oldtime resistance fighters out there tell us how the cells were set up so we have a better idea of what we are fighting. If the resistance could survive against the Third Reich we may find it very difficult to take them apart. They have spread themselves thinly all over the world which makes for a very difficult struggle.
The tragedy will have a long-term, deleterious effect on NY that we cannot begin to imagine. Companies will scale back construction plans involving large, visible buildings. Who will want to work in a target? Will the NYTimes and AOL-Time Warner really want to have showcase headquarters anymore that are free-standing, tall and wide-open to kamikazes? Will they have the money to build them, given the recession that is sure to occur? Will New Yorkers want to do anything that involves being in a potential terrorist target -- go to ball games, well-known stores, theaters, etc? Will the job market, the real estate market, the financial industry, the tourist industry, ever rebound? Will people even want to live here? Does it make sense to expand transit if ridership plummets? This will affect the 2d Ave. subway, the LGA extension, and many more.
Sure, there is money to rebuild downtown. But will there be money left over, not to mention the need or desire, to do anything else for a long, long time?
New York is not going to go away, but it is entirely possible that the trend to dispersion that's been masked by the City's recent vitality will accelerate.
Companies are questioning the wisdom of concentrating huge staffs in a single location. Of necessity, they're leasing available space in New Jersey, Long Island and Midtown. By the time substantial new office space becomes available they may be comfortable enough in their new locations to move only limited staff back.
It's not just worries about staff concentration. Following the 1993 WTC bombing, many or most of the displaced companies were willing to work out of temporary, squeezed-in quarters because they knew they'd be returning to the WTC fairly soon. Permanent arrangement weren't necessary.
All that's changed now. Any replacement for the WTC, even under the most optimistic forecasts, is at least four or five years off. Displaced companies aren't going to be willing to work out of inadequate temporary quarters for that long, and it wouldn't be realistic to expect them to be so willing. They'll want, and soon will be looking for, regular office space for permanent occupancy. In, say, 2006 or 2007 when WTC II is ready to open, it's quite likely that many of these companies will have grown used to where they are and won't see any real desire to move back (not to mention lease obligations, of course).
Now, the companies that are in the damaged but not destroyed buildings, for example American Express at One WFC, probably will be relocating only temporarily. But the new WTC is going to have to fight hard for tenants. Hopefully, it'll work out okay.
Let me start this post with saying that much sorrow and prayers go to all of you in NYC area for this horrible tragedy! I NEVER could have imagined that in my life time I would ever see anything such as this.It just shows all of us how fragile life is. We just take things feeling they will always abe there and then you have total destruction of life and property. But if I may post a question what will this terrible act have on the new V service? Again my heart and prayers go to all.
The Queens-Manhattan service changes scheduled for Nov 11 can proceed as planned,I wouldthink. If anything, the presence of the 63rd St tunnel is a most welcome feature, now that we need a lot of system flexibility.
When the Cranberry tunnel is reopened, so long as the MTA decides split local service on Eighth Ave. -- i.e. no C train -- is more desireable than a new V train service to Queens, than the E can replace the C south of 50th St. to Euclid and the V can be run to Houston-Second Ave. Since today's papers say the Eightyh Ave. express tunnel between Chambers and B'way-Nassau looks OK, reopening the express line might not take much time to do.
I would suspect that service changes will be in effect for a number of years to come. Screw the V. The Cortlandt St station and the tunnel for the 1/9 is G-O-N-E. They are talking maybe a year before they can fix it. First the multiple tons of debreis need to go, then they can look at the tunnel. The structural integrity of the tunnel has indeed be compromised.
-Hank
I'm betting on 3 months. Given that cost will probably not be a factor, and that if the tunnels are collapsed, the infrastructure above the tunnel will also be gone. This removes the usual hassle in subway construction, as it can be rebuilt from the tunnel up. The effort to remove the rubble will get more intense as the so far unmentioned spectre of disease becomes part of the equation.
You know Americans are really coming together when Sea Beach Fred is worried about Bill Clinton and then cheers when he knows he is all right. Frankly I was worried that he was in Australia on a trip, and could have been subject to an attack. When I saw him in New York comforting the people around the former WTC I was overjoyed to see him. I had to pinch myself to find out if that was really me. I guess I'm an American first and partisan second. And I can honestly that Clinton didn't seem to be hogging the camera as a publicity stunt. I know sincerity when I see it and I saw it in President Clinton. My God, it made me feel good. No matter what anyone overseas tells us, it is great to be an American. I'm so proud of my people.
Mr. Clinton also deserves kudos for calling upon Americans to support President Bush. I have a feeling that if George W. is anything like his father, I have a message for the nation that ends up on the recieving end of a US attack:
May God have mercy on your soul...
You know, one of the things Bush's opponents were most critical of before the election, and even after it, was that he had a cowboy mentality and seemed to not have any problem with carrying out the death penalty. In the current situation, that's not a bad resume to have (try to imagine the Taliban turning over Osama bin Laden to the U.S. for trial and having us give him life without parole for the terrorist attacks, and the future consequences that could involve, and you'll see what I'm getting at).
I think I get it. Put him inthe general prison population with the white racists, black militants, and Hispanic gangbangers. My stars, they could all take turn beating the living crap out of him. I could go for that.
Throw his ass into an Oz(an HBO show, for those who don't know)-style prison and let Adebisi make him his bitch.
Not to mention Big Bubba.
feeling that if George W. is anything like his father,
He'll bungle it just like his father bungled the Gulf War? The whole reason Saddam is still in power is because of the inetpitude of George Bush #1. The United States had the oppurtunity to, if not remove that ass hole dictator directly, to encourage a popular rebellion that would have done it for us. Sure he was all ready to go to war, but he lacked the follow through to make it a lasting victory. Just imagine it, a free, non-santioned Iraq filled with a population that looked upon our country as something that made their lives BETTER. THAT is the most effective way to deal with terrorism.
I hope for a better result than from the Gulf War too. Your last two sentences are really great, by the way.
Seth
So you condemn GB Sr. for not going far enough in one war, while you condemn GB Jr. for starting another one?
Alan Glick
No one said anything about condemning a war, we just want to make sure it is against the guilty parties.
If you want to continue this arguement, e-mail me, showing me the EXACT message where I condemned Bush. If you can prove to me that I condemned Bush for starting a just war and prosecuting it justly (difficult to do, considering there's been no fighting yet), then congratulations. If not, shut up and stop trying to pick fights, please.
Seth
Practically every message of yours has urged restraint upon the President and condemned those who like him who talk of launching quick reprisals against the responsible foreign power(s). Thanks to such restraint Bin Laden and his organization may have already left for places unknown.
With the hundreds of messages on these threads I'm not going to spend the time searching through them. I'll just rely on everyone's memory.
Bin Laden has already been proven to have been behind the first attempt on the WTC, yet you urge restraint. Thanks to your kind's belief in restraint, we didn't go after this organization and its host country after the first WTC incident. And we all see the results of such "restraint"
Alan Glick
I don't think "restraint" means not going after the perpetrators. Restraint means being sure you got the right guys before kiliing a whole bunch of people.
BTW, bin Laden is already in "places unknown." Do you know where he is?
Thanks. Glad some people understood what I was posting.
Seth
Who has been urging restraint against the Perps, I'm at a loss.
The whole reason Saddam is still in power is because of the inetpitude of George Bush #1.
I think the problem is a little more complicated.
It is unlikely that the coalition would have held, if toppling Saddam were a direct objective. Also, remember Korea. Had Truman and MacArthur stopped at the 38th parallel and not tried to reunite North and South, then China would not have entered the war and we would have been out by Christmas.
The real blunder came from the military who negotiated the cease-fire, Schwarzkopf. They permitted Iraq to operate helicopters. It was a spur of the moment decision without consultation with Washington. It doomed the US sponsored coup. Out of the jaws of victory...
(Just imagine it, a free, non-santioned Iraq filled with a population that looked upon our country as something that made their lives BETTER. THAT is the most effective way to deal with terrorism.)
I've been thinking about that. Arabs have all kinds of real, imagined, rational, and irrational grievences against the United States. One of the more rational is that instead of removing Saddam, we are starving out the Iraqis.
It is as if we had stopped in France and left Hitler in power and then, realizing he was still a threat to world peace, quaranteened Germany to leave it in ruins and suffering. What would Germans think of us now if we'd done that?
Perhaps Jr. intends to fix that mistake.
The problem with the Gulf War in the long term was it didn't hurt the U.S. enough to make us decide that getting Saddam was more important than preserving the "coalition." The thinking was if the U.S. had all the Arab states except for Iraq (and Jordan) on their side and Israel behaved itself even while the Scuds were falling, this would make it easier to have post-war Arab-Israeli talks, which may or may not have played a role in the Oslo Accords two years later.
Outside of higher gas and heating oil prices, if you weren't a solider in Desert Storm, the Gulf War didn't affect you one bit. Combine that with the fact that the goal of liberating Kuwait had been achieved with the loss of only 128 lives when deaths in the thousands were predicted, and the face that there was only minor debate in the U.S., but no outrage, over not going on to Baghdad, and the fact that Iran was ready to pounce on Iraq if they saw signs of total collapse (something the other Arab states did not want), and the decision was made to just leave Saddam in place, a move that almost everyone now admits was wrong.
In this case, America itself has been attacked and Americans have been killed on American soil -- this one people are mad about, and while I'm sure there will be some voices raised that we shouldn't take the chance of killing one innocent civilian in order to get at the terrorists (a few articles in that vein already have appeared), the vast majority of people will support whatever is needed to get bin Laden and his gang, and will be outraged if Bush 43 doesn't do that.
Any innocent killed, our's or their's is wrong. The fact that they did it first doesn't matter. What will matter in the long run with the who;e Arab community as well as the rest of the world is if we can say we did the job of cleaning out the scum without becoming the scum. If we want America to be the shining beacon of freedom we need to show the world that we took a bad hit, but didn't let it make us as bad as the perps who did this. If, as it looks Bin Ladin masterminded this, let's get the scum without alot of collateral damage. Not only would this set an example for the rest of the world, it might make future scum think twice! We have the technology in smart weapons to do this right, let's use it and show the world that we are fit to lead (not rule) the world, not just this country.
What we do will come down to an asset/liability decision for us. We want to get bin Laden and whoever was associated with this, and as of right now, about 90-95 percent of the public according to the polls wants the U.S. to go after them. But if their hiding among civillians in Afghanistan, Iraq or whereever, do we decide we can have no civillian casualties? Saddam figured that out 10 years ago when he started putting some of his military plans next to schools and hospitals and it worked because the Gulf War wasn't important enough to the U.S. to risk our image.
Right now, image is taking a back seat to the goal of wiping out whoever wiped out the World Trade Center, and the odds are more than the 128 soliders who died in the Gulf Ward will die this time, and civillians also will probably die in the conflict and we will also in all likelihood make some new enemies. But if the surviving terrorists have no state sposorship for their activitives after our military action, it will make a five-year mulit-nation coodinated effort like the WTC and Pentagon attacks tougher to pull off.
So long as there are people out there willing to die to kill Americans, Israelis or whoever they don't like, terrorism is not going to go away. But it will be tougher to carry out on this scale if you knock it on its ass every few years.
If we kill thousands of muslim innocents do you really think this will ever end. Smart weapons and satelite technology give us the ability to do this cleanly and surgically. If we do it right we may not even have the 128 killed as in the Gulf War. For the first time in history the ability to keep collateral damage to almost zero is here. Because of our greatness we have the ability to throw away money to do this instead of innocent lives, ours or their's. Don't forget every service person we send to do this is an innocent too, and a ground war will cost more than we can afford in those lives. And no nuking a whole country isn't the answer. With the greatest level of technology ever brought to war in the world, we have the ability to end the cycles hatred and war by not causing the negative reaction that a slaughter of innocents would bring. Get the scum not the innocents!!!
will cost more than we can afford in those lives. And no nuking a whole country isn't the answer. With the greatest level of technology ever brought to war in the world, we have the ability to end the cycles hatred and war by not causing the negative reaction that a slaughter of innocents would bring. Get the scum not the innocents!!!
As I said before if we kill every arab in the middle east there will be nobody left to take revenge. I'm not stating my position, just a fact. We have two options, kill the "scum" and live with terrorism or kill millions of "innoscent" people and live terrorism free. An eye for an eye leaves one guy left with sight.
And if we kill every American, we won't have a repeat of the Oklahoma City bombing.
Also correct. I'm not advocating anything here.
Gee I wonder if Bin Ladin feels that if he kills all Americans then there won't be any of what he considers terrorists left. NOTE this is not an excuse for Bin Ladin.
Nah -- he's still got all of Europe and the Russians to kill after he kills us. And don't forget those yellow dog infadel Canadians and all the evils they've inflicted on bin Laden's Islam over the years .... well, actually, they haven't inflicted any, but if they need arose, he'd think of some.
Look, if we can get the terrorists with as little or no civillian casualties as possible, we should. But we also shouldn't just give up if they decide to use civillians as human shields, the same way the Air Force would have had to have shot the United jet down if the passnegers hadn't crashed it themselves, because it would have been the lesser of two evils.
Under an absolutist theory about civillian casualties and collateral damage, Hitler should have set up his headquarters in an orphanange instead of in a bunker and he'd still be running Germany right now -- true, he'd be 13 years older than Stom Thurmond right now, but we and the Russians couldn't have gone in and gotten him because innocent civillins would have been hurt.
Look, at this point it's not just a moral issue about killing civilians. It's also a pragmatic issue: the more civilians you kill, the more anger you produce; anger which will jump up/bounce back/blow back/bite back against the US in the form of MORE terrorism. There has to be a better way than that.
Seth
Other than Nuking them all.
I hear people on the board saying kill everybody and I hear people saying kill nobody. Both ways are asking for trouble -- do the first, or just indiscrimanently go into Afghanistan without a plan or an idea where bin Laden is, and you will not only kill innocent civillians, but you'll get your own troops ambushed, and I'm sure the U.S. millitary would really, really like to be in and out of the Afgahan mountains before winter starts up at 15,000 feet above sea level.
Go in and try to find bin Laden with the side goal of no civillian or collateral damage and the military will end up looking as foolish as in Somalia in 1993, when we ran around for months trying to catch the factional leader and ended up having about as much success as the Coyote trying to catch the Road Runner....except we ended up with 18 soliders dead and two hung up on meat hooks for the TV cameras. Not a good tactical effort, and our 18 did get up after the fade out to come back and try again with another Acme product.
We've got sophistcated high-tech equipment, but it's not yet sophisticated enough to find someone hiding in terrian like bin Laden's hiding in. We're going to have to go in and get him and odds are there will be casualties on both sides. But to run away at the first sign of blood is to invite seeing a lot more body parts lying around the streets of New York in the future.
Let's make this real easy on ourselves. We already have people in custody. We already have some allies in the Taliban - domnated Afghanistan. Make them talk. That'll give us some idea of where bin Laden is.
Given how careful the people running the Gulf War (50 percent of whom are back for a second go-round) were about getting a coalition together, plotting out a minimum casualty strategy and an exit strategy, I would think that this plan likely goes over the similar ground, and that the U.S. has probably had some sort of Afghan invasion plan to get bin Laden in their playbook at least since Clinton shot those cruise missiles at him three years ago.
"I hear people on the board saying kill everybody and I hear people saying kill nobody."
Whoa, I'm somewhere in the middle on that. The guilty parties must be punished, removed from society (I'm not saying how; that's not a decision I, thankfully, have to make), but you don't want to kill the innocent, both for moral and pragmatic reasons. On the moral side, I don't want anybody to die ever. And on the pragmatic side, I know that killing innocent people will exacerbate the problem by making more people angry.
But on the realistic side, I know people are going to die, innocent and otherwise, and I accept that, even though I'd rather not. I'd rather not accept that the WTC is gone, but I have to--it's basically the same idea.
I think most people on this board agree more than we think, but it's hard to discover exactly how (especially when some people completely ignore others, something you, thankfully, are not doing).
Seth
That's the beuty of America. We've agreed to disagree in order to accomplish the things that have made us great. Dare I say in this time of unity republicans and democrats. We find the middle road and go like hell.
Human Nature -- and the 24 hour ness cycle -- means that if we don't have a really, really serious problem in the world, we focus on little problems and manage to blow them up to the point that we treat them like they're really, really important.
We lived in easy times for the past 12 years, with no real consistant enemy (with isolated tragedies, like Oklahoma City), so that in the week before the bombing the biggest question in Washington was about a Social Security lock box, and in New York the focus was on a mayoral election between four guys without really that much difference between them (where the heck are they, anyway?). Now, there really is a problem that has to be taken seriously, and, at least for now, all this other stuff that would have been on Page A-26 of the New York Times in the past is back on A-26 and the really serious stuff is on Page 1.
We'll see how long it lasts, but unless the whole country has ADD, we should hold together for more than just a week or two before the usual squabbling returns.
I think we'll be granted more than that week. In 50 years I can't remember the Democrats and Republicans ever sounding so similiar. Even what I've read about WWII didn't show this much unity.
Admiral Yamamoto feared haveing wakened the sleeping giant after Pearl Harbor. Well Not only is the giant awake, he is damned pissed off. I think the unity will hold for long enough to do the job.
>>> the goal of liberating Kuwait had been achieved with the loss of only 128 lives when deaths in the thousands were predicted <<<
There were far more than 128 lives lost in the Gulf War. The figures you quote were the direct U.S. KIA deaths only. Are the lives of those who are not American completely worthless to you? Our coalition allies suffered deaths also, as well as many more deaths among the Iraqis. In addition, "Gulf War Syndrome" has taken additional lives since then.
Tom
The post you are referring to is on why the United States did not go further in ousting Saddam and one of the main reasons was because there was only limited popular support for the war, as witnessed by the narrow Senate authorization vote. There were international concerns but the fact is that when the cease fire went into effect, the death toll was 128 Americans, and for the purposes of American public consumption, those are the 128 people that people back home were focused on -- from the lost pilot to the sporadic combat injuries to the Scud missile vicitms in the Saudi barracks, which accounted for the bulk of the deaths in the combat zone.
Of course there were more than 128 people killed, both in the coalition, and after the way, not to mention the thousands more on the Iraqi side. But the thread deals with why the war wasn't carried to Baghdad and maintaining a low fatality rate was one of the factors in March 1991. Unless you're Nostadamus or Madame Cleo, you never heard of Gulf War syndrome in March of 1991 so any deaths resulting from it had no bearing on the truce Saddam signed.
If the Afghan authorities don't cooperate with an extradition request for bin Laden and don't hand over those "evangelists", then they bear whatever responsibility for what befalls the Afghan people. BTW, I'm sick and tired of the hate America crowd blaming us for everything. One thing we did screw up on is not destroying the Iraqi government and civil institutions and rebuilding Iraq as a democracy (it would be the only one in the Arab world) Zionism is not racism, but Arab nationalism is.
"Zionism is not racism, but Arab nationalism is."
Could you define both terms ("Zionism" and "Arab nationalism"), please, as I'm not familiar with their nuances?
Seth
Don't I remember that Zionists were considered terrorists at one time?
Many of them were so considered, before Israel's independence.
And their targets were the British, who still had their mandate in Palestine. That's why one of the biggest backers of the creation of Israel in 1947 was the Soviet Union, because they thought Israel might become their ally and foothold in the Middle East. Once Stalin saw that Israel as going to have a government built along British/U.S. lines, he switched allegances to the Arabs, many of whom were glad to have his financial aid even though ol' Joe was a bit of an aethist in his day...
Absolutely right.
If the Afghan government backs Bin Laden, we now have the ability to take out most if not all of their military capablities without the collaterall damage carpet bombing (for example) used to cause. Do you think the Taliban would be able to hold power if their military were destroyed. Saddam would have been removed by his own countrymen if we had taken out the republican guard. Most of the people in Afghanistan hold Bin Laden as a war hero because of the Soviet occupation war, not recent events. They have suffered for 22 years under war conditions. They appear to have trouble finding the means to survive day by day. Except for what Bin Ladin did as far as the Soviets are conscerned I doubt the average Afghani would care in the least if we took out Bin Ladin so long as we don't make their situation worse. If we take out 5000 innocents to get the several hundred that we might find with Bin Ladin, all we are doing is furthering the divide that gives terrorists their excuses.
Either you are with us or you are against us. And I doubt if there are 5,000 innocents in Afghanistan. Russia needs it for a highway ROW, anyway. If Russia didn't need it, I'd say destroy the government and civil institutions and then make it into an educated and well fed democracy, the Uncle Sugar way.
isn't that called Imperialism?
Like what we did to Serbia, Ksoosvo and now to Macedonia?
and others I can't remember.
ach!..Not "macedonia" I meant FYROMacedonia/Skopia..
Hopw my Greek friends don't kill me for this Typo.
The average person in Afghanistan doesn't give a whit about the Taliban. They just want to have some peace in their lives.
Yeap.
another article coming up.
Very perceptive article.
BTW, as an example of the ignorance of some Americans, the Afghanistan mission to the UN in NY has been threatened. Of course, this is the mission of the "official" government, i.e., the one that was overthrown by the Taliban!
So you let the sociopath off the hook. Actually, I wonder what would happen if someone gave bin Laden a bullet. With bin Laden gone, might his organization fall apart without his sociopathic charisma. you may have a point. Of course, that would be a nice thing. but it's too bad we didn't let Russia absorb Afghanistan in the '80s
Yes, our Cold War mentality caused us to finance bin Laden and his buddies. You reap what you sow.
Russia tried and found the same thing we did in Vietnam. A ground war against guerillas is damned difficult to come out of alive.
Sounds right to me.
Let's see 22,000,000 people, 5,000 innocents, that means .02% of the population. Do you really think the Taliban and Bin Ladin have 99.98% of the population convinced that what they have now is good for them?
(One thing we did screw up on is not destroying the Iraqi government and civil institutions and rebuilding Iraq as a democracy (it would be the only one in the Arab world)
Doing so would have meant upsetting Arab allies who aren't democracies either, and putting people on the ground. You can slaughter the people of Afganistan and Iraq from the air, but you can't kill off the Taliban and the Bath Party without being on the ground. We weren't willing to do that then -- wanted to get in and out fast. Perhaps we are now.
The problem is if we kill Bin Laden 2 more will take his place. The ONLY way to truely be free of this is to KILL every last arab living in the Middle East. For obvious reasons nobody will do this, but with a more limited attack we will only create more terrorists. I support a "Hidden Hand" strategy. We strike back, but we do it in ways that nobody can ever trace back to us. You know, you can't blame us for crop failures. Mercury contamination in the water? Not our fault. A plague! How horrible? Sorry, we spend our international aid budget cleaning up the WTC. The Middle East will learn that with they attack us they have a long run of "bad luck".
It's like training a cat. If you shoo the cat off the dinner table it just hates you and keep comming back on the table. If you shoot it with a water gun from a hidden location it takes it as an act of god and stays off.
And if we killed every Arab, others would become terrorists directed at us (or the terrorism of others would come at us).
Moreover, cats are not people (not "even" Arabs). Afghanis aren't Arabs anyhow.
Seth
Moreover, cats are not people (not "even" Arabs). Afghanis aren't Arabs anyhow.
I'm going to get rid of the ethnic part of my statement as it is stupid and wrong. If we depopulated every state that supported terrorism and every state that closely sympathized with them then we would stop the cycle of revenge. I feel that it would be the only way to stop the cycle of voilence. Obviously we're not going to do this so don't look for terrorism to go away any time soon. My conclusion, we need to prevent the attacks, not try in vain "punish" the attackers. The later will only make us look stupid when we fail.
"My conclusion, we need to prevent the attacks, not try in vain "punish" the attackers."
Agreed; I think we just disagree on how to do that.
Seth
We can’t kill every Arab. What we must do is to eliminate all the nations that allow terrorist to hide the money they use to finance their attacks. If we nuke Switzerland the Bahamas and the Camions the terrorist cannot continue to act. These nations supported the Nazis and are now supporting terrorist they must be destroyed.
We really have to do something in those banking countries. With Europe behind us maybe they will finally clean up their act.
Be much better to lead by example than by a big stick, you don't have to watch your back that way. Knowing that the big stick is always there should be enough. If we can bring the world community to believe it is in their best interest to eliminate the ability to money launder they will be behind us in shutting down those countries that allow the flow of money to terrorism. Now that it has been shown that any country with cities and tall buildings is vulnerable, a lot of nations that were sitting on the fence will start seeing things differently.
Do you really think the Swiss will change? What happened on Tuesday was nothing compared with the 6 million Jews they helped kill 60 years ago. They are willing to let anyone do anything as long as A) they aren't touched and B) they make a profit. It is time to turn Switzerland into a pile of rocks.
Switzerland was not that vulnerable as long as they held a significant portion of Third Reich wealth. Seems like most of those Bank nuildings are just as vulnerable as the WTC, and Bin Ladin's money is spread out one hell of a lot more so what does he care if he targets the WMF through Switzerland. It's just one more target.
I found that if I put coins in a pop can to shake at my cats, my cat's learned just as fast even if I was standing right there. The point is if every terrorist act results in dead terrorists (not just 1 or 2) the ratio of terrorists to innocents is going to take one hell of a beating. If we give people more reasons to become terrorists we might as well just blow up the whole world, that way we would be sure to get every last one of them. Of course there won't be anyone left to appreciate the work we did.
Boy did I miss Subtalk for the time it was out of whack, but there was a consolation to it. It gave me time to try and cool off a little bit. I don't consider myself anymore of a patriot than anyone else out there, but maybe I just take it harder personally. I don't know. I only know that I was stunned, sad, then enraged at what happened. But the respite may have given me and others on the site the opportunity to cool off a little bit. I certainly hope so.
I only hope the rest of the world will be as lucid as you. Thanks for your post.
Seth
If I could cross my fingers when I type this I would. Are any of our colleagues missing or unaccounted for? It is really wierd from my point of view, but I only know about a dozen of you personally but I have come to look at my fellow Subtalkers are extended family. I fondly pray that we are all ok. If there is any news on this score I hope someone let's us know, and hope what they tell us is good news.
Poster "Lou from Brooklyn" hasn't posted since.
How about Chris R27-30? I belived he worked in the area from reading his posts..........
He posted, he got out in time.
Arti
Many DSL lines are down, as is phone service in the area of the collapse. If he lived in the area...
-Hank
The word is that Lou was on vacation in Orlando at the time of the attack. He may not have access to the Internet right now. Also, it's generally thought that he works in the vincinity of Queensboro Plaza. And of course, Lou from Brooklyn lives in Brooklyn.
-- David
Chicago, IL
The word is that Lou was on vacation in Orlando at the time of the attack. He may not have access to the Internet right now.
He might not be able to get back, either.
Yup to all, no internet connection since Tuesday it was in the WTC.
Drove back just got home yesterday. Would still be there if I didn't drive.
At a convention for work, they cut the rates on the hotel too for those that were stranded. From $235 to $159 (I was there on a government rate of $129) Walt Disney Swan.
I saw the 2nd hit on Tower 2 live, we were in the general session and the turned the monitors to CNN. Tuesday meeting were cancelled but we worked on Wednesday and Thursday.
Thanks for all the concern.
(Typos are my fault, haven't touched a keypad in a week).
That's a good piece of news to hear you're ok. Rumors were rampant that you might have come to harm. Let's hope the rest of our Subtalk family came through this ordeal all right.
It's been reported that about 3,000-4,000 tons of debris are being removed from the WTC site each day. Estimates are that there is a total of perhaps 400,000 to 500,000 tons of debris that will have to be removed.
The magnitude of this disaster just boggles the mind.
My prayers for the victims and their families.
God Bless America.
It's been reported that about 3,000-4,000 tons of debris are being removed from the WTC site each day. Estimates are that there is a total of perhaps 400,000 to 500,000 tons of debris that will have to be removed.
I suppose the pace of debris removal will pick up once this ceases to be a search for survivors and becomes just a cleanup operation. Even so, there are limits to how many trucks can be brought into the area, so debris removal will continue for quite some time.
Once the streets are cleared in any sort of a loop debris removal will speed up significantly.
Example, for anyone who uses the Cross Westchester Expressway over the space of about a month they blew up and hauled away the better part of a mountain. With the right resources you can haul away anything.
They have to haul away the debris twice. It is still a crime scene. The debris has to be hauled to an inspection area (Great Kills Landfill), sorted and then hauled away again. Eventually they may be limited by the sorting action.
There is also the problem that the 200,000 tons worth of steel beams cannot be pulverized by dynamite like a mountain. It's not the same as hauling away a mountain.
Assuming they are going about 1% per day, it's a two to three month stint.
They have to haul away the debris twice. It is still a crime scene. The debris has to be hauled to an inspection area (Great Kills Landfill), sorted and then hauled away again. Eventually they may be limited by the sorting action.
Why not just leave it at Fresh (not Great) Kills?
By the way, while I know that it's derived from a Dutch term, the name "Fresh Kills" is pretty bad under the circumstances!
Because all that hi-quality scrap steel is worth something. They could leave all the non steel stuff there. It would make a good landfill cap.
Another thought. We are only talking about the debris pile so far. The NY Times lists 6 buildins with apparent or real structual damage, and 4 with window or facing damage. The facing damage will have to be scaled off. The structually damaged buildings may not be repairable and require further building implosions. Might be a can of worms. I revise my estimate to 5-6 months.
I think that America will show it's true strength and accomplish more then we could ever imagine before this.
I would guess that the structually damaged buildings would be the remains of the world trade center, 1 liberty plaza, The world financial center, The Amex building, Merril lynch(Are they WFC Buildings?)
(I think that i saw old hudson terminal on tv)
The Times lists the following.
Apparent structual damages or structual damage.
3 WFC
90 West St.
Bankers Trust
30 West Broadway
14 Wall St.
Winter Garden
Facia, Window or no apparent damage
Millenium Hilton ( surprised me looked trashed)
2 WFC
1 WFC
4 WFC
(I think that i saw old hudson terminal on tv)
Not unless your TV was made in 1965. When the PA bought the H&M they bought Hudson terminal and surprise surprise guess what they knocked it down to build.
I meant the below ground section
Old Hudson Terminal was demolished in the late 1960s to make way for the Trade Center.
Is recycled scrap steel all that valuable ?
Remember, this is the steel that was LIRR MP-54's until 1971.
Scrap steel is just the same as new steel once it's melted down and reprocessed. Steel is the MOST recycled product. Where do you think all those old cars go? The WTC steel would have been of very high quality and your average scrap heavy steel sells for around 9 cents a pound. That's a lot of money when you're talking tonnes and tonnes of the stuff. Even more money when you consider the saving from NOT having to landfill it.
Makes me wonder why Redbird cars were dumped off the coast....Maybe the market for used steel is down this year?
I think this has been discussed. IIRC, the cost of salvaging the steel was more than the potential profits because they'd have to remove asbestos and other contaminents.
Seth
Maybe for fish reef's?
Redbirds are mostly light steel with a lot of non-steel stuff inside that would have to be removed. In the WTC you have piles and piles of virgin steel beams and can be crushed into cubes and sent back to the smelter.
Might it be possible to melt down the debris and use it in the construction of the new WTC?
From a Civil Engineering standpoint, the steel will be recycled, but the amount of contamination in the concrete dust prohibits any easy reuse of that product without significant seperation technology that we don't have yet.
Keep in mind though, we've never had such a will to do this. Also I think there will be virtually no lack of resources wether donated or supplied by FEMA. This includes manpower as well as equipment. Don't know who said faith can move mountains.
All this additional truck volume will be causing water main breaks.
This is a little off topic for Subtalk.
But I would like to suggest that an emergency change be made to the city charter that would allow Rudy Giuliani to stay on for a few months to oversee the cleanup. I don't think this is any time to 'transition' to anyone else.
www.forgotten-ny.com
Or at the very least Bush should appoint him as a special master to over see the FEMA operations for New York City after he leaves the mayor's office on Dec. 31.
Well, the primaries and election are to come. Postponing normal changes in government is a bad precedent.
If might be a good time for New Yorkers to consider whose face of the current contenders you would feel comfortable seeing on the screen right now, representing the people of New York and managing this massive task.
If might be a good time for New Yorkers to consider whose face of the current contenders you would feel comfortable seeing on the screen right now, representing the people of New York and managing this massive task.
How does "none of them" sound?
That will not be an option.
it's been mentioned that the section of the City Charter relavent to the Mayoral terms and Mayoral election should be suspended during the crisis. I don't think that we can afford to change horses mid-stream - especially since all six current candidates have the brains of the north end of a south-bound horse.
Thank Mr. Lauder for that.
We managed to get through WWII without postponing a single Presidential election. I think fixed elections are one of America's great strengths and the lack of them one of Europe's great weaknesses.
I wouldn't mind a fast change in the City Charter to get rid of this term limit nonsense. If Rudy could reenter the primary against Lauder, I think he'd win in a walk. I've heard, BTW, that politicians aren't limited to two terms, just two CONSECUTIVE terms, so Rudy could run again in 2005, if that's true.
The primary has been rescheduled for Sept. 25. I'm interested to see what the candidates have to say when they start campaigning again.
I think you meant to say more than two consecutive terms . I've actually heard that Mr. Guilliani would like to run again in 4 years, assuming that the city charter is not ammended. Personally, I've never seen the need for term limits. Terms are limited now by three natural factors; Poor performance, voluntary refusal to run, and death. Seems to me term limits are meant to get rid of good candidates.
If a politician isn't any good, he shouldn't get a SECOND term. If he's great, two is too few.
Speaking from California, and I know that is 3,000 miles away, I know enough about Rudy Giuliani to know he has been one hell of a mayor. The re=emergence of New York City as a vibrant, exciting, and relatively safe city can be partly attributed to his great leadership.
One of the reasons New Yorkers voted Giuliani in him was because they felt he was better equipped to handle a crisis -- back in 1993 that meant the high crime rate and nearly 2,000 deaths a year. And he was re-elected because of his success in doing that. But in the last 3 1/2 years, the city really hasn't had any "crisis" just a lot of little incidents, and the city's economy had bounced back from the early 1990s (though it's slipping now) so there wasn't even an economic crisis for Rudy to handle, and by his temprament he's not the kind of mayor who's going to look good just maintaining the status quo. He wants to do something all the time, which is why limiting pretzel vendors and battling museum art dung exhibits became so prominent in his second term. Add to that his prostate cancer and all the fun with Donna over the past three years and he looked pretty well spent as a political force until Tuesday morning.
Now, New York has been hit with a crisis bigger than anything created during the high crime years of the 1980s and early 1990s, and Rudy's back in his element -- the right mayor for the right time (No offense to those who support Mark Green, but I just have this picture of him promising to bring the full wrath of the city's lawyers down on bin Laden if he was mayor right now).
That's why Bush needs to put Giuliani either in charge of some FEMA management program for the city or make him the special prosecutor for the DOJ's terrorism operations once his term is up.
I'd like to see Guiliani's term extended for 1 year. It's not only a new mayor but new people going into the administration. It would be reassuring to have some continuity while we are dealing with the rescue and recovery.
I cannot picture any of the mayoral candidates being able to handle the leadership of the city while this crisis is going on. Green has already whined that Rudy didn't included him on the "Ground Zero" tour on Friday. (Green spokeperson said that Green "could not be reached" when the phone call was made) Plus the fact that the Police Commisioner Bernard Kerik has already said that when Rudy leaves, he will leave too.
The cream will rise to the top. Just maybe someone out there will come riding in a charger and save the day. Any body see Big Al Sharpton? He"s usually near the camaras.
avid
I've heard rumors that the good Reverend is preparing to send his 'army' into the streets hawking Al Sharpton/WTC memorial tee shirts. In the words or New York's most prolific secular entepreneur, "What good is a catastrophe if I can't turn a buck".
Also it appaears that as of 8:45 a.m. last Tuesday, Jesse Jackson was kidnapped by space aliens.
England got thru WWII with TWO government changes (to and from Churchill). Dunno how or why, though. I think (at least deeply hope) we'll survive a change in mayor. Guiliani should become head of FEMA or something, though--he's ridiculously good at handling crises.
Seth
Although I didn't think Rudy had a chance for VP in 2000 (I think I said so here--too ethnic, too liberal, too New York) I think he has the inside track for the GOP VP nomination in 2004 if the current situation is handled well, if Cheney's health prevents him from running.
Just for the record Great Britain did not change governments with a great time of war remaining. The Election was in July, 1945, two months after we creamed the Germans. The war had less than a month to go.
[How does "none of them" sound?]
Including Rudy.
Wayne
The NY Post ran many editorials Friday with similar sentiments. It's a shame that NYC had to suffer this kind of attack before the populace realized what an extra-ordinary leader our mayor is. Even Chuch Schummer has risen to the occasion - something I'd never have believed.
Here are two questions that I've been wondering about. Perhaps someone here can answer them:
Question #1:
The vote in the senate for the $40 Billion appropriation was 96 - 0. Does anyone know which senators didn't think this vote was important enough to attend.
Question #2:
Virtually every NY leader has been highly visible during the coverage of this tragedy. Noticably absent has been the goo Reverend Sharpton. Has anyone seen him since Tuesday?
Thank You
BTW: Just to be topical, I see that the D train is running full time to 2nd Ave now. I've been told that by the spring there will be no more B train :)
Sharpton only seems to show up when there's a crime against black people. Until bin Laden starts bombing buildings in Harlem, he probably won't be showing his head very often on the issue.
Sharpton only seems to show up when there's a crime against black people. Until bin Laden starts bombing buildings in Harlem, he probably won't be showing his head very often on the issue.
Not that it should matter, but there probably were many black victims of the WTC attacks.
Let's give Sharpton a couple more days to show his face and show his concern. He may be out of town, or it could be something else. If a few more days go by and he's a no=show then it a free-for-all at his expense. Unless he has had good reason, his absence has been despicable.
Sharpton supposedly led a prayer service today.
The 4 absences were most likely related to people being unable to make it to Washington or other problems. ABC News gave complete details.
ActuallY I BELIEVE two of the absentees were Schumer and Hil..who were quite justfiably looking after their city.....
No, it was actually three Republican Senators -- Jesse Helms of North Carolina, George Vonivich of Ohio and Kent Conrad of North Dakota, along with independent Jim Jeffords of Vermont, who missed the vote on N.Y. apprpriations. Helms and Conrad also missed the ensuing vote authorizing military action against the terrorists, which passed 98-0.
Thank you. I don't know what conclusions, if any could be drawn from this. I was just curious.
Outside of an explanation for the vote against appropriations by Ms. Lee, the Congresswoman from Oakland trying to remove the title of "Most Hated California Representative" from around Gary Condit's neck, I haven't seen anything on why the four missed the vote, of why Voinavich and Jefford made it to the second vote, but not the first one.
The NY Post ran many editorials Friday with similar sentiments. It's a shame that NYC had to suffer this kind of attack before the populace realized what an extra-ordinary leader our mayor is. Even Chuch Schummer has risen to the occasion - something I'd never have believed.
Here are two questions that I've been wondering about. Perhaps someone here can answer them:
Question #1:
The vote in the senate for the $40 Billion appropriation was 96 - 0. Does anyone know which senators didn't think this vote was important enough to attend.
Question #2:
Virtually every NY leader has been highly visible during the coverage of this tragedy. Noticably absent has been the good Reverend Sharpton. Has anyone seen him since Tuesday?
Thank You
BTW: Just to be topical, I see that the D train is running full time to 2nd Ave now. I've been told that by the spring there will be no more B train :)
1.) The missing Senators from the vote were Craig (R-ID), Helms (R-N.C.), Jeffords (I-Vt.) and Voinovich (R-OH). Craig and Helms also missed the following vote on authorizing the use of U.S. armed forces against the terrorists. No explaination so far on where the four were or why Jeffords and Voinovich were there for one vote and not the other.
2.) Given Reverend Al's high profile action and jail time against the use of Viquens for U.S. Navy target bombing earlier this year, I would imagine he's laying low right now as so not to be asked if he plans to continue his planned next round of protests on ending the bombing now instead of in 2002 as announced by Bush and Rumsfeld a few months ago. (At least he wasn't stupid enough to name a kid after the place like Robert Kennedy, Jr. did -- to avoid any questions about his actions, he'll have hide the baby into foster care until this whole conflict is over).
I agree.
I don't think people's minds are really focused on change and transition. Personally, I need consistency in my life at a time like this when even the skyline can't stay the same from day to day.
Being the Mayor of New York is an extremely powerful political position that isn't even that partisan. It's like being the President of a medium-sized country. Roosevelt got us through WWII, and we need Rudy to help lead New York through this.
I can't imagine that any of the parties involved wouldn't mind postponing the election for 6 months. It might set a bad precedent, but these are unprecedented times,
MATT-2AV
I don't think people's minds are really focused on change and transition. Personally, I need consistency in my life at a time like this when even the skyline can't stay the same from day to day.
Being the Mayor of New York is an extremely powerful political position that isn't even that partisan. It's like being the President of a medium-sized country.
Roosevelt got us through WWII, and we need Rudy to help lead New York through this.
I can't imagine that any of the parties involved wouldn't mind postponing the election for 6 months. It might set a bad precedent, but these are unprecedented times
I understand your point, but then again there are certain advantages in maintaining as normal a life as possible. I went into work on Thursday and Friday even though most of my co-workers stayed home (out of the 25 or so in my department, two others were in on Thursday and about ten others in Friday). In no way do I regret going in. By doing so, I hoped I was able to show, in a very modest way of course, that life goes on despite these terrible events. Similarly, I believe it was a mistake to have cancelled almost all sporting events th is weekend - not because I'm such a sports nut, but because the cancellations send a message to the terrorists that they've (temporarily) won. Not cancelling the events would have been more respectful to the dead.
In short, holding the elections as scheduled will help show that the city and nation still survive and can't be beaten down too easily. It's also probably not a big issue from a practical sense. Guiliani will remain in office for another three and a half months. By the time he leaves, the immediate emergency will have passed, and focuses will have shifted to rebuilding and retaliation, things that don't really involve the mayor directly. And he'll be no more of a lame duck after the election than he is today.
Love 9400 was looking for a brother, has anyone heard anything?
Thanl you guys[and ladies]for the concern and heart felt words.We found him in a hospital over in Jersy City,Thank god. He is way banged up,guess that would happen if you tons of crap fall on you as you trying to get away. Once again,thank you very much.
One happy ending in a time that will have so few.
So glad you found him!!!!!
Glad to hear he's okay. That's very good news.
-- David
Chicago, IL
Has anybody heard from or seen posts by our fellow subtalker "Seven"? I've been trying to get in touch with him since tuesday, to no avail. Pls any info let me know!
Marty
Good olde Seven. The scurge of subtalk. unfortunately for some of you cats that don't like everyones favorite graffit-o advocate here on subtalk, I can report to you that seven is alive and well. He's been volunteering, of course, and last i talked to him was setting up his computer to get online already...
And Playland (not sure if that's his handle)?
Seth
He too is alive and well, though i haven't talked to him yet, as well as the mysterious "conductor" & "mentor", who don't post all that much...
Good news is always welcome.
Seth
You should all take a clue from the Mayor, and the President. Because someone is of a different background makes them no less American. At the last turn of the century it was Irish, Italian, and German hating each other. I would bet that most of the people posting hate mail have at least one of those ethnicities. As has been said by others, we are all immigrants in this land, the only difference is when we arrived.
Let's all stop the hate mail, and do what we can to share information on the purpose of this site, THE SUBWAY!!!
When the President tells us who was responsible, that is the time to focus your anger.
I also posted this as a response to another hate message.
Yes.
Seth
The board is pretty quiet since it came back up.
Are you trying to stir a pot?
Good point, sorry.
Sincerely, thank you.
Appeasers and apologists like you and Seth need to realize one thing: OUR NATION WAS ATTACKED BY A GROUP OF SOCIOPATHIC ANIMALS WHO WERE AIDED BY A FOREIGN GOVERNMENT. EVEN IRAN AND MOMMAR KHADAFY WERE "SHOCKED AND SADDENED" BY WHAT HAPPENNED. AFGHANISTAN'S TALIBAN LEADERS ISSUED A "WARNING" TO THE UNITED STATES OF REVENGE IF WE RETALIATE. NO OTHER COUNTRY EXCEPT IRAQ SUPPORTS THAT TERRORIST ACT. EVERY CITIZEN OF AFGHANISTAN SHARES RESPONSIBILITY FOR TUESDAY'S EVENTS. EVEN "THE SHEPHERD AND THE NURSING BABE" MAKE NO MISTAKE, THIS WAS A HUGE ACT OF WAR, APPEASEMENT WILL ONLY INVITE FUTURE ATTACKS. THE ONLY RESTRAINT I ADVOCATE IS THAT NUCLEAR WEAPONS NOT BE USED. SO AS NOT TO RENDER THE REAL ESTATE UNUSABLE FOR FUTURE USES. WORLD WAR II WAS MADE POSSIBLE BY A FOOLISH APPEASER NAMED NEVILLE CHAMBERLAIN. HIS "PEACE IN OUR TIME" COST TENS OF MILLIONS OF LIVES> THE CIVILIZED WORLD HAS A JOB TO DO, GET ON WITH IT!!!
Mr. Blair, how does not steroetyping or hating others just because of what grooup they belong to, have anything to do with appeasement and apologizing?
Amen John - great post !!!!! I don't know what crack in the ground these two came up through but I've decided to ignore them - ignore them on topic - ignore them off-topic - ignore them no-topic. Perhaps if we all ignore them, they'll simply crawl back into their dark crevices like so much mold......
Somehow, probably because I don't always express myself as clearly as I would like, you've gotten a horribly distorted idea of what I believe in. If you want me to clear that up, let's do that off-board. If not, please shut up.
Seth
You clarified somewhat for me, not that I wasn't a little confused about it, but I at least got the idea. You must remember, just in case you don't, that Train Dude accepts no bullshit from anyone. You say what you mean and be clear about it, or he's going to be on your ass. He and I are buddies on this site, sure, but that doesn't mean he hasn't taken me to task a couple of times because of a lack of clarity. And I'm a hell of a lot clearer than you. So come out and state what you want to do in no uncertain terms. We now know Omar bin Laden was behind this attack and countries around the world are lining up with us as well as showing deep sadness at what happened. It's your turn to clear matters up.
>>> We now know Omar bin Laden was behind this attack <<<
We do? I have seen no evidence presented to determine that. Only various reports that he must be behind the attack.
Tom
Put them in Killfile.
I think I have enough self-control to ignore them without the kill-file.
I'd been thinking the same thing myself.
Absolutely not, Q. I think killfiling someone does no good at all. If a person is outrageous on some matter and goes over the line, it is up to the rest of us to set him straight. Killfile him and he has a free pass.
I've got 4 on my list, Fred & Q. Keep reading the posts and the little inconsistencies keep popping up. Keep reading the posts and the anti-American Rhetoric is pervasive. Three are complete phonies and one is a suck-up.
Fred, as a history teacher, you know why the Japanese attacked Pearl Harbor. Say what you will about the 'sneak attack', it was still Japanese military planes striking a military target. These low-life scumbags could have hit military targets, or monuments if they wanted to strike at the idea of America. But these low-life scumbags used civilian aircraft to strike at a civilian target to get the highest possible body-count while attemptint to disrupt the fabric of our lives.
Just as with the Japanese in WWII, history will be the final judge of the causes of this tragedy. Right now we are at war and there is no room in this country for the kind of anti-american bullshit being spewed by the 4 assholes I've mentioned. I have no intention of attempting to silence them but I will not ever dignify any of their garbage with a reply. Their explainations be damned !!!!!!! A pox on all 4.
Yeah ok...
wanna Pox?
..|. | .|..
:P~~~~~~~~~~~~
When will people like TrainCrude realize that someone disagreeing with him about HOW to retaliate is not Anti-American? No one on this board disagrees that we SHOULD retaliate - just on how. That does not make us Anti-American. Not tolerating those who disagree with you is the real Anti-Americanism. Who does TrainCrude think he is that he alone knows the best way to act in this crisis?
>>> "When will people like TrainCrude realize that someone disagreeing with him about HOW to retaliate is not Anti-American? No one on this board disagrees that we SHOULD retaliate - just on how. That does not make us Anti-American. Not tolerating those who disagree with you is the real Anti-Americanism. Who does TrainCrude think he is that he alone knows the best way to act in this crisis?"
People on this board who know me and who have met me know I have an opinion for everything and am not afraid to send it with a bullet to whoever is in earshot. Strangely enough, however, this disaster has struck me silent. Not because I am still in shock over what happened, although it is quite a reason, but because I know I am in agreement with everybody else about what happened and am trying to cope with the matter on my own terms, as is everyone else, despite the media's insistently reminding me about what happened and how to feel about it.
More notably, however, I have remained silent because my solution to the problem, while not unique, counts for nothing in the grand scheme of things. Neither is yours. Neither is his, or hers. While it is admirable that we all have the ability to come up with our own solutions, and could justify them down to the most minute details, the reality is that our leadership will take little of what we say directly into account and go with its usual plan of tempering brute force with motherlike mercy, thereby giving everybody a bit of satisfaction, but pleasing nobody entirely. As it should be. Would you want the families of the 5,000 lost going off half-cocked retaliating against everything? Or how about 5,000 "doves" trying to show the Taliban the light of Jesus? I thought not.
The answer lies somewhere in the middle. Where, exactly, we will never know. This nuance is not lost on President Bush and his hordes of "experts." But suffice to say, seek comfort in the answer being closer to the 5,000 families than the 5,000 doves.
In the past week, I have seen several memorials and, needless to say, the feelings shown were similar throughout. But God bless us whenever someone wearing a sticker saying "Give Peace A Chance" crossed someone who seemed ready to blow himself up in an Afghani mosque. Neither said a word to each other. Both were too absorbed in the moment to engage in petty debate. While they disagreed, they walked the hell away, probably cursing each other under their breaths, BUT UPHOLDING THE SANCTITY OF THE MOMENT FOR OTHERS BY REMAINING SILENT.
Can't this board be the same? Stop making political statements on a subway message board. If you make one, be prepared for retribution in direct proportion to the tone of your statements. If you can't take it, don't post it. If you can't respond to the flames without ad-hominem attacks like "TrainCrude," maybe your statements have some severe holes in their design.
Politics is personal. The minute it becomes public, let the flame wars begin. I should know. I was called "racist" on here for equating subway service with vagrancy in neighborhoods, and attributing fish odor in Flushing to store owners tossing fish water out onto the streets. Instead of resorting to whining, I posted rebuttals to any accusations of racism. Needless to say, everybody's mind was already made up and I was either loved or hated from that point on. Since then, I have largely shut myself up on any political threads here and let others bang their heads against the walls trying to make their points to the board. Maybe they will learn that their politics matter only to them and you can lead horses to water, but ...
Either that, or they could just sit back and try to hold other people accountable to what they have posted, and see from their responses how much merit their arguments should be afforded. Train Dude's bullshit detector may be a bit hyperactive, but it is better to critique a post rather than than let it stand unchecked. Nobody has a free ride here. Nobody should. Understand that.
Your statement is mostly right on.
[Just to correct the record, my ad hominem attack ("TrainCrude") that you criticize, was only in response to his calling me an "asshole" in his post. I think my name-calling was a lot more moderate than his! But we all should refrain from such attacks.]
As usual I am in complete agreement with you----certainly on your first two paragraphs. But I got an E-Mail from one of the four, and he was much more sincere as well as lucid in his note to me. I am going to try to give the other three a little wiggle room to clear matters up and dispose of the notion many of us have that they appear to actually be anti-American, outrageous as it sounds. But, please, Dude, don't killfile anyone. That way you have no basis to know what's going on with them, and, frankly, I really enjoy your no-holds barred answers. No one can ever accuse you of not being clear on matters, nor not know where you are coming from.
Thank you, Fred. Because we have similar backgrounds and because you are one of the more insightful subtalkers, I give your thoughts possibly more consideration than most.
Last Tuesday, every person on this Site - every person in this country had their lives changed for ever. The way we go about our day to day business will never be the same. We've all witnessed events that we never imagined that we would witness. My granddaughters along with countless other children have had their innocence stripped from them well before their time. Nothing feels the same anymore...
It seems to me that we have very few choices. The losses in monetary terms will be about $30 billion. In human terms, 5-10 thousand innocent civilians. We can write off the losses, dust ourselves off and continue - business as usual. We can strike out blindly and savage the world like a wounded animal. Or we can track down the network of terrorists in the world along with the nations that support them and give them sanctuary and hold them responsible. We can make it clear that the cost of such an act is clearly to high for any terrorist group or any nation to pay. We can make sure this never happens again.
This country, its leaders and the vast portion of the populace, along with most of the civilized world agree that the third option is the only logical choice. Wipe the terrorists from the face of the earth along with those who support them. As people who have taught history, we know that the causes of this weeks events will be discussed and argued over for the next century - if not longer. However, this is not the time. I care about the terrorists chopping limbs off in Africa. I care about the terrorists in the Eastern Europe who's mines kill and cripple children by the hundreds. I care about the terrorists in Northern Ireland and the terrorists in Russia, too. Just not so much today. Today terror has come to my country, to my city and to my granddaughters.
Make no mistake about it, we are at war - a war we did not start. The enemy has chosen targets not based on any military value but because of their value as instruments to instill terror in our land. At this time I feel that we should be one people with one voice. I personally do not need to be lectured on the alleged causes of this weeks events by those effete pseudo-intellectual political diletantes - new to subtalk. We can save those debates for the days after out troops come home victorious.
It's funny. TD, I agree with everything you say -- except for the last 2 sentences. When you don't flame and call fellow SubTalkers "assholes", you make a lot of sense. But there's nothing wrong with debating the causes of the events, now or later. Such debates are not "lectures," and they are what makes America the great country it is.
Exactly.
Seth
I'm going to go back on my word - not to respond to you. I do this to point something out to you. You say you agree with everything I said in my post but for the last two sentences, correct? Here are those last two sentences.
"I personally do not need to be lectured on the alleged causes of this weeks events by those effete pseudo-intellectual political diletantes - new to subtalk. We can save those debates for the days after out troops come home victorious."
These are the two sentences with which you disagree? I didn't say you didn't need to be lectured on the issues. I didn't say everyone else on subtalk didn't need to be lectured on the issues. I said that I didn't need to be lectured on the issues. Now by what devine gift do you determine what I should know and how do you know more than I, what I need? You say you agree with me about everything else that i wrote and yet you feel that I'm not qualified to judge what i want to hear at this point in time?
Tonight for dinner I had chicken chow mein, white rice and 3 jumbo shrimps with a glass of plain seltzer. Was that ok with you? After that, I took my dog out and we played ball in the backyard. Does that meet with your approval. I then went to my motorcycle club meeting. Do you think that was appropriate?
Feel free to disagree with my opinions or facts that I post. Just do not attempt to tell me what i need or how to think.
Plain seltzer eh? I couldn't down a glass of that if you offered me $20.
$100 maybe, but not for $20.
Try a little lemon in the seltzer, it helps
When Train Dude is on the warpath get the hell out of his way. I don't think the seltzer did him any good. Of course, there were two sentences I found a little puzzling but it certainly wasn't the ones Boatti found. In fact, I have always found the Dude to be right on the mark, but I was surprised I saw my handle in the answer. I wondered what posts I missed that brought on Dude's exchange.
TrainDude, even when you're being complimented, you strike back!
What I disagreed with in your last 2 senteces, specifically, was calling several members of SubTalk "effete pseudo-intellectual dilletantes - new to SubTalk." Every part of that phrase is false. I also respectfully disagree that we should put off any debate on the causes of this attack till after the troops come home.
Of course, I do not disagree that you and only you can decide whether or not you need to be lectured. Now let's cut all this BS out and get back to transit issues. OK?
If the shoe does not fit, then don't try to wear it.
Since the murderous act of last Tuesday occurred, I've been outraged by the act and angered by those who in some way sought to justify that madness. That's me. I feel strongly and anger easily. At my age, I don't think it's going to change and I'm not at all sure I'd want to. Rightly or wrongly, I've singled out 4 individuals who I felt were overly critical of our government and overly understanding of the criminals who perpetrated this mindlessly murderous act. One has sought to persuade me that my opinion of him is not accurate - and I will reconsider although I can't imagine why my opinion is of such importance. However, it's also pretty clear that one of these 4 has signed me up for a mailing list (part of my re-education, I think). Here is an excerpt from one of the mailings I've received so far.
"It is for that reason, that the Bush administration
is using the tragic nightmare of murder in New York,
which itself occurred under circumstances
suggesting the complicity of American covert forces,
to create an international hysteria in order to drag NATO into the
strategic occupation of Afghanistan and
an intensified assault on the former Soviet Union.
So now the United States Secret police orchestrated the attack on the World Trade Center and the Pentagon, killed 5-10 thousand people, caused $30 - 100 billion dollars in losses, just to get NATO to occupy Afghanestan so the US will have a strategic foothold against the Soviet Union. Yup - do all that to get a military advantage against a toothless tiger. Talk about effete pseudo-intellectual political diletantism. Next we'll hear from the effete pseudo-intellectual secular diletants trying to convince us all that the RC Church caused the bombings of the aforementioned targets because of a Vatican plot to erradicate the Moslim peoples of the world.
I think David Letterman hit the nail on the head last night in his conversation with Dan Rather. These crazies are pissed off because they don't get cable. Of course, the person who put me on this list also has not the balls to admit to it - even though he did it for my own good. If nothing else, I've found the internet equivalent of Mad Magazine, sans Alfred E. Newman...........
TD, it doesn't just have to come from the Internet. Here's a piece by Ms. Susan Sontag from this week's New Yorker.
I'm sure in the days to come, she will go door to door to the families of each victime telling them, "You and your government deserved this and you'd realize that if you were as intellectually as brilliant as me." And the sad part is, she could take a shit in the middle of Broadway and a certain group of people out there would vouch for its intellectual brillance.
\ The disconnect between last Tuesday's monstrous dose of reality and the self-righteous drivel and outright deceptions being peddled by public figures and TV commentators is startling, depressing. The voices licensed to follow the event seem to have joined together in a campaign to infantilize the public. Where is the acknowledgment that this was not a "cowardly" attack on "civilization" or "liberty" or "humanity" or "the free world" but an attack on the world's self-proclaimed superpower, undertaken as a consequence of specific American alliances and actions? How many citizens are aware of the ongoing American bombing of Iraq? And if the word "cowardly" is to be used, it might be more aptly applied to those who kill from beyond the range of retaliation, high in the sky, than to those willing to die themselves in order to kill others.
In the matter of courage (a morally neutral virtue): whatever may be said of the perpetrators of Tuesday's slaughter, they were not cowards. Our leaders are bent on convincing us that everything is O.K. America is not afraid. Our spirit is unbroken, although this was a day that will live in infamy and America is now at war. But everything is not O.K. And this was not Pearl Harbor. We have a robotic President who assures us that America still stands tall. A wide spectrum of public figures, in and out of office, who are strongly opposed to the policies being pursued abroad by this Administration apparently feel free to say nothing more than that they stand united behind President
Bush.
A lot of thinking needs to be done, and perhaps is being done in Washington and elsewhere, about the ineptitude of American intelligence and counter-intelligence, about options available to American foreign policy, particularly in the Middle East, and about what constitutes a smart program of military defense. But the public is not beingasked to bear much of the burden of reality.
The unanimously applauded, self-congratulatory bromides of a Soviet Party Congress seemed contemptible. The unanimity of the sanctimonious, reality-concealing rhetoric spouted by American officials and media commentators in recent days seems, well, unworthy of a mature democracy.
Those in public office have let us know that they consider their task to be a manipulative one: confidence-building and grief management. Politics, the politics of a democracy—which entails disagreement, which promotes candor—has been replaced by psychotherapy. Let's by all means grieve together. But let's not be stupid together.
A few shreds of historical awareness might help us understand what has just happened, and what may continue to happen. "Our country is strong," we are told again and again. I for one don't find this entirely consoling. Who doubts that America is strong? But that's not all America has to be.
—Susan Sontag
I'm sorry, I must have missed something, but where does she say that anyone deserved anything? She avoided moral judgements as much as possible.
I agree, she should have condemned the terrorists, but her point was that others have done that an awful lot. All she said was "this was not a "cowardly" attack on "civilization" or "liberty" or "humanity" or "the free world"," but that there were specific and rational reasons for the terrorists to be angry. This does not mean that the way the terrorists chose to act was moral or otherwise "right" or "just," and, of course, it wasn't. But if the US can figure out what angered such people and correct it as much as it can without jeopardizing its own interests, might that not be a better long- and short-term solution than just killing a lot of people and getting many others, who don't see the US's actions from an American's perspective, angrier still? Especially if, in the case of Pakistan, the Islamic radicals take over the government and get their hands on nuclear weapons?
Seth
So if only we could have figured out what angered Hitler and his radicals (and gotten them or ourselves into group therapy counseling in time), we could have prevented WWII? Some people and groups defy logic and reasoning -- bid Laden is the front man for a group of Islamic Luddites with Unabomber sensabilites; assuming rationality on their part is merely asking for a repatition of last week's disasters.
While the United States' foregin poilicy since World War II has been far from perfect, either deliberately or (far more often) though the Law of Unitendent Cosequences, assuming these people will act in a rational way no matter what you do is naive. Unless the Western world passes a plebicite to dismntle all progress since the internal combustion engine and convert all our churches and synagogues to mosques (Sunni, of course, never Shiite -- bin Laden and the Taliban have their enemies inside the Moslem world as well as extrenally), you're not going to placate these people.
Sontag's screed seems to be driven by both a "I can see higher truths than the hoi-polloi," egotism, and a certain feeling that "Patrotism is for nerds and I can't believe people in my city are acting like those Yankee-Doodle yokels in flyover country."
Just exactly was is "The self-righteous drivel and outright deceptions being peddled by public figures and TV commentators," that she talks about? The ongoing bombing of Iraq is a direct result of Saddam's continued violation of the 1991 Gulf War peace treaty that he signed, becuase he invaded Kuwait.
I agree with her that a complete review of U.S. intellegence and counter-intellegence needs to be conducted, but what of "The unanimously applauded, self-congratulatory bromides of a Soviet Party Congress seemed contemptible." Would she have preferred Rudy Giuliani go running up Church Street in terror screaming "Run for your lives! Abandon the city! It's the end of everything!"
I suppose to Ms. Sontag, such pessimism combined with self-flagellation over our forign policy would be better for the country Rudy in an FDNY outfit standing at the breech or Bush with a bullhorn standing with Sens. Schumer and Clinton (she's especially disappointed in Hillary) stading amid the Trade Center wreckage. At least it would make all that gauche patriotism go away.
(First, because this is long and so very off-topic, perhaps we could continue this off-site, if you want?)
"So if only we could have figured out what angered Hitler and his radicals (and gotten them or ourselves into group therapy
counseling in time), we could have prevented WWII?"
No. If the US hadn't withdrawn from Europe after WWI, though, perhaps we could have maintained the balance of power there--something no country was willing to do. Or if the Treaty of Versailles hadn't gone thru in such a vindictive way....but that's all just ideal speculation--we can't predict the future, change the past, or pin down any one reason that complex events occur (and it's the same in this case).
"Some people and groups defy logic and reasoning -- bid Laden is the
front man for a group of Islamic Luddites with Unabomber sensabilites; assuming rationality on their part is merely asking for a repatition of last week's disasters.
While the United States' foregin poilicy since World War II has been far from perfect, either deliberately or (far more often)
though the Law of Unitendent Cosequences, assuming these people will act in a rational way no matter what you do is naive.
Unless the Western world passes a plebicite to dismntle all progress since the internal combustion engine and convert all our
churches and synagogues to mosques (Sunni, of course, never Shiite -- bin Laden and the Taliban have their enemies inside the
Moslem world as well as extrenally), you're not going to placate these people."
I agree--bin Laden defies logic and reason, and so do people in general. I also don't believe that my idea is a complete solution to this problem, but I think it could win the "hearts and minds" of at least some people, which is more than a Vietnam-style invasion of Afghanistan and Pakistan (which is, I'm told by a knowledgible Pakistani, is how the already powerful fundamentalist group in Pakistan would view US forces in Pakistan) would produce. And if the US doesn't win their hearts and minds, who will? Bin Laden--and that would be really bad. Again, though, and I know you didn't claim this, there is no fundamental incompatibility between Islam and the West, only that which demogogues and radicals create.
"Sontag's screed seems to be driven by both a "I can see higher truths than the hoi-polloi," egotism, and a certain feeling
that "Patrotism is for nerds and I can't believe people in my city are acting like those Yankee-Doodle yokels in flyover country.""
That's the New Yorker's tone, I suppose. I guess there's nothing to be done about it. What was this article running as, analysis or just a personal commentary or something else entirely?
"Just exactly was is "The self-righteous drivel and outright deceptions being peddled by public figures and TV commentators,"
that she talks about? The ongoing bombing of Iraq is a direct result of Saddam's continued violation of the 1991 Gulf War
peace treaty that he signed, becuase he invaded Kuwait."
The outright deceptions might include reports that the man taken off the Amtrak train in Providence last Tuesday or Wednesday was in any way linked to the terrorist. The media has not been exactly balanced (an impossibility, I know, and maybe not even desirable right now). You and I might know about the ongoing bombing of Iraq, but on the whole, Americans are notoriously unaware of the rest of the world, and anything having to do with Iraq hasn't been front page news in a long time. It was a pretty silly thing for her to say, as it doesn't help prove her point particularly well. She already provided examples of what she regarded as "self righteous drivel," which you regarded as patriotism, and I regard as both patriotism and jingoism.
"I agree with her that a complete review of U.S. intellegence and counter-intellegence needs to be conducted, but what of "The
unanimously applauded, self-congratulatory bromides of a Soviet Party Congress seemed contemptible.""
The "The unanimously applauded, self-congratulatory bromides of a Soviet Party Congress seemed contemptible" was the apparent lack of debate on what the complete and long-term US reaction should be. As she herself put it, "The unanimity of the sanctimonious, reality-concealing rhetoric spouted by American officials and media commentators in recent days seems, well, unworthy of a mature democracy." And I agree that we need to discuss and debate the proper reaction, something that many people seem to be against, both on this board and off. If I, for instance, always assumed that the first thing that popped into my head was right, I'd make an ass out of myself a lot more than I already do (and take some bodily punishment as well). But, yes, there are some immediate and local responses that have to be taken, and those shouldn't be a matter for debate (and anyone who does is a self-important fool probably, perhaps half of which Ms. Sontag is, but I doubt she's both--she writes for the New Yorker, after all (tongue firmly in cheek)).
"Would she have
preferred Rudy Giuliani go running up Church Street in terror screaming "Run for your lives! Abandon the city! It's the end of
everything!"
"I suppose to Ms. Sontag, such pessimism combined with self-flagellation over our forign policy would be better for the country Rudy in an FDNY outfit standing at the breech or Bush with a bullhorn standing with Sens. Schumer and Clinton (she's
especially disappointed in Hillary) stading amid the Trade Center wreckage. At least it would make all that gauche patriotism go
away."
I think that Guiliani has done all the right things, said all the right things, and, most importantly, kept his head. Anyone who could find anything (other than one or two tiny details, which I have not been looking for and will not look for, not expecting to find them) that he's done wrong and then condemn him for it would be a fool. I think Ms. Sontag agrees with the rest of New York in being grateful to Rudy for his actions in this crisis (and if not, she's a fool). Moreover, I think all of the on-scene reaction has been extraordinary, from Rudy to Bush to the senators--you're right, it is important and necessary to cheer the country now. But that vital job shouldn't remove from the state's mind the other vital job it has: to protect itself. I think she put it best when she said, "Who doubts
that America is strong? But that's not all America has to be." In other words, to protect the United States, the United States has to use its strength, yes, but also use its mind.
Seth
I don't know if even our continued involvement and entry into the League of Nations after WWI would have stopped Hitler, because of the attitude the Great Powers of Europe still had about the U.S. at that time -- we were OK to call on in time of need, but it was like calling a plumber when your toilet is stopped up; thanks for your help, but don't think you're going to tell us how to redesign the house (an attitude that still persists some today).
Sontag's essay was in the New Yorker's Talk of the Town section that's availalbe online here. and is part of a series of essays by various writers, including a far more reasoned critique of why some people hate the U.S. by Denis Johnson. Sontag is the only one to see the thing entirely through political glasses, and her attacks are as out of place as those of the Southern Virgina Holy Rollers (Robertson and Falwell) were last week.
As for what to do next, it seems that for now the U.S. is taking its time, both on producing evidence to implicate the attackers and on deciding what to do once they are formally identified. That doen't mean there may not be some mistakes in the near future, but so far Bush has not run around guns ablazin' like Yosemite Sam.
The fact that he and Mrs. Clinton are on the same side of this issue seems to tear at Ms. Sontag more than the attack itself. She demands that the rules of adversarial politics that existed before 8:48 a.m. last Tuesday be continued, and thinks Democrats are hypocrites for not doing so, which is really sad.
In Queens, Jewish Task Force airs on Public Access at 10pm. Can't wait to see what they have to say about last weeks attack on America.
Possibly a sneak preview: I went to a vigil of remembrance and for religious toleration held by the Hillel, a Jewish student group here at school, and the Muslim Student's Association on Friday, and yesterday one of my roommates in the MSA said a rabbi(!) e-mailed the two girls calling them Nazis.
Seth
Scary. They aired an episode from before last week's attack on the World Trade Center. Time Warner is digitizing and upgrading, so Jewish Task Force has probably been off for several weeks.
Even before last week's attack on America, this whacko has been warning us, about "Arab Nazi's", as he calls them, and their unfinished business with this country. As crazy as this program is, it's amazing that this guy has been on Public Access for many years, warning us about the threat of another attack on America.
Stuff like that can be spouted without comment when no one though an attack the scale of last Tuesday could happen. Those same words now could spark some type of attack on people who are not involved at all with these groups and lead to some sort of hate crime charge.
That's exactly right.
Now, the Constitution protects even vile speech to a point, so he's free to state his opinion, no matter how moronic...of course, if he actually says "It's your duty to go out tonight and bash Arabs with crowbars," meeting the "words as weapons" standard of the Supreme Court, then maybe the cops can slap handcuffs on him. He won't go that far, though - even he's not that stupid.
"when no one thought an attack the scale of last Tuesday could happen."?
Well, you're almost correct. One person knew. And he's been on Public Access for years, warning everyone.
Unfortunately, the warning came in the form of a radical racist on Public Access, instead of a reasonable voice.
I don't think the host as ever promoted violence. He just asks for a donation for his cause, and says he can change things if people would support him. Total scam artist.
By any chance, is this the same Task Force which I saw on Queens public-access TV openly advocating for an all-white New York, sending blacks and Puerto Ricans back "where they belong" and otherwise encouraging violence against racial minorities? It was a pretty scary broadcast. If the announcer on that broadcast had substituted "Sieg Heil Main Fuhrer" for the Hebrew he was using so corruptly, I'm not sure it would have mattered.
This isn't the same group you're talking about, is it?
I wasn't aware he was so radical. I have only seen a few episodes of the program. A local newspaper recently did a piece on the host, saying that he is a salesman, but won't say where he works.
But everyone knows him from his broadcasts. "The guy with the hat and sunglasses" as he is known, apparently has been warning us for years about the threat of an Arab attack on the US.
But I figured it would be interesting to here a radicals response to last week's attack.
OK. I was just wondering if you and I were thinking of the same guy.
Yes, he is that radical. The broadcast I saw was the most revolting, disgusting broadcast I have ever heard. As a human being, a freedom-loving American, and a Jew (born in Israel), I was deeply offended by what I heard.
This guy is a total nut. I have seen a few episodes. It's not the only public access program that I watch. You'd be surprised at how many people watch this guy, even though they don't agree with a word he says.
As usual I am in complete agreement with you----certainly on your first two paragraphs. But I got an E-Mail from one of the four, and he was much more sincere as well as lucid in his note to me. I am going to try to give the other three a little wiggle room to clear matters up and dispose of the notion many of us have that they appear to actually be anti-American, outrageous as it sounds. But, please, Dude, don't killfile anyone. That way you have no basis to know what's going on with them, and, frankly, I really enjoy your no-holds barred answers. No one can ever accuse you of not being clear on matters, nor not know where you are coming from.
Japanese diplomats have quite rightly pointed out that there is no parallel between Pearl Harbor, an attack on military targets, and the attacks last week. The attacks last week were carried out for the express purpose of killing as many civilians as possible, same as the suicide bombings in Israel, but on a grander scale. Those who sympathesize with these acts or make excuses for them are despicable. They are people without values, unable to distinguish between good and evil. A pox on them would be too mild. The attacks last week were the most outstanding of a series of attacks that have been going on for years now, as part of a war on western society and values. I hope that the westernized countries will finally wake up and unite with more than words to combat in a sustained way the evil inflicted upon them by those who hate them, before it is too late.
There are no excuses for these acts.
AMEN
You are right that violence only begets more violence, and ethnic hatred does likewise. The endless cycles of war in Northern Ireland, the Middle East, and the Indian subcontinent should be object lessons to us of what we MUST avoid. Indeed, it is the Middle East conflict that ultimately triggered what happened here, and both that conflict and the India/Pakistan one (since Pakistan borders Afghanistan) could well be further inflamed by a U.S. response.
But should we believe that "When the President tells us who is responsible" he is necessarily telling the whole truth? He has already hinted strongly who he believes is responsible. I think public emotions are being deliberately manipulated to support a protected war, and frankly that angers (and scares) me. It is demogoguery. Tens of thousands are already dead; doubling or tripling that number (or worse) won't help matters.
Tuesday's attack has been compared to Pearl Harbor. As is now known, the attack on Pearl Harbor was actually no surprise to FDR and his closest advisors. They deliberately let it happen, denying intelligence about it to Admiral Kimmel and his men in Hawaii, because they wanted an excuse to bring the U.S. into the war. I pray that it isn't true that the WTC incident was "another Pearl Harbor" in that sense, but I fear that it is. There is already a confirmed report of a warning being sent by telephone from a prisoner in Germany; it was simply not believed, they say. And a sailor on a Navy ship reportedly told his family Monday night by cell phone that "something big" was about to happen. If this is true, heaven help us all.
http://www.qvdepot.com/wtc.html
Donation, volunteer, and contact information for those interested collected from various media.
If you are out there, other Subtalkers want to know that you're OK. If you see this, please post a reply.
I did a search and note that Lou hasn't posted since 9/5. Let's hope that he is away on vacation and that's the reason for his lack of posting.
He did put up a post yesterday, I believe, but a number of messages have disappeared from the board due to glitches associated with the server's power problems.
Hello all, thanks for the concern.
I was in Orlando from 6th on at a convention (user conference). Tuesday's events knocked out my works internet provider and my access to the net.
I ended driving back from Orlando with some other New Yorkers getting home yesterday.
Work has patched a connection and has asked that we use it for critical mission work related stuff only. No personal stuff and since I normaly browse subtalk from work on my "free time" I haven't been to subtalk.
From home I'm posting this, alive and well Thank You.
Glad to see you're okay. A few of us were starting to get worried.
-- David
Chicago, IL
After reading Ron in Bayside's post I e-mailed Lou. About ten minutes later he responded. He was in Orlando on business and had to drive back to NY.
Thankfully he is okay and will be posting.
A little background ... at noon on Friday, many people from my company attended a memorial service at Our Lady of Pompeii church on Carmine Street. What a mistake. This ignorant f*** of a priest hardly mentioned the dead at all, but rather spouted off these wholly inappropriate Biblical platitudes about turning the other cheek and loving one's enemy. He also catisgated America for our "selfish freedoms." WTF??? I was completely outraged, and in fact if there hadn't been many people from my company (including the CEO) present, I would have stood up right in the middle of the sermon and called the priest a motherf***er. Back at work after the service, the other people who had gone were angry and dismayed too. To make matters worse, it was pointed out that this whip-me-again-master, Chamberlain-at-Munich attitude seems to be widespread in the Catholic church - indeed, Cardinal Egan was urging restraint the very day of the attacks. I was raised Catholic but dropped the church like a hot potato many years ago. I am very glad I did so.
But a ray of hope emerged last night. I was watching CNN when there was an interview with Rev. Robert Schuller, pastor of the famous Crystal Cathedral in Garden Grove, California (coincidentally, we stayed at the Doubletree Hotel right across from it last February). His attitude was 180 degrees opposite from that of the ignornant prick of a priest at Our Lady of Pompeii. Rev. Schuller said it was entirely consistent with Christian doctrine to take appropriate revenge on those who perpetrated this outrage, and urged President Bush to do so. It was so uplifting to hear this, after having heard such a vile attitude earlier. If I were in California today, I'd be at the Crystal Cathedral in a flash - that's what religion is all about!
P.S. While walking to the West 4th Street station last evening, I passed by Our Lady of Pompeii church - and spit on its steps.
It could be worse. Click below to see what that vile, hateful, hypocritical scumbag Jerry Falwell said on his fellow scumbag Pat Robertson's TV show:
Click here to see what a bigot this schmuck really is
>>> It could be worse. ... see what ... Jerry Falwell said <<<
Not really worse than some of the things said by fellow subtalkers in the past few days. Just a different scapegoat.
Tom
Sorry that you had such a bad experience at your service, but that's no reason to spit on a house of worship.
I went to a service yesterday at St. Agnes on E 43rd. across from Grand Central. The place was packed and you couldn't get in, and the priest was great.
I had to drive back from Atlanta on Wednesday, and listening to talk radio on the way back through the South, many people expressed views similiar to Falwell.
I'm not so sure yet that people around the country can relate yet to what we have been through up here, because this is our HOME. Many people were referring to "the troubles in Washington and New York" or "I'm sorry to see that happen to New York. I went there on vacation a few years ago, and New Yorkers are real good people."
When the price of a gallon of gas goes to $5, and a pack of smokes to $10, then some people will care.
They've already had isolated price gouging reports and runs on gasoline in places like Illinois and Oklahoma, so the attacks already have had at least a limited effect in other parts of the country in terms of costs.
They've already had isolated price gouging reports and runs on gasoline in places like Illinois and Oklahoma, so the attacks already have had at least a limited effect in other parts of the country in terms of costs.
Gas prices shot up in the face of extremely long lines on Tuesday night in Denver - the radio was reporting prices in excess of $8 per gallon, although the highest increase I heard about from a co-worker was 60¢, from $1.65 to $2.25 - but by Wednesday night things were back to normal. Since I was only a visitor to the Denver area I'm not sure if the stations were running afoul of an anti-gouging ordinance or not, but I was glad I didn't need to fill up the rental car at that point.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
In the immediate aftermath of the attack, some station owners and independent distributors took advantage of the siutation to jack up the prices. But due to the fact that the whole country is wired for news 24/7/365 nowadays, it was clear by late Tuesday afternoon that no oil refineries, pipelines or anything else connect with the industry outside of the futures markets had been affected by the attacks, and state attorney generals across the country set up toll-free lines to report price gougers.
With people able to see immediately there was no reason for the gas prices rises, the companies were forced to drop their prices back down, and some may still face big fines (as of now, none of the major oil companies have been implicated in the price spikes, but I'm sure there will be some sort of investigation into the matter once things calm down).
The price of everything in Brooklyn is up 25 percent or more -- when you can get it. Ie. $2.79 for a half gallon of milk. I doubt the reason is big profits by retailers. More likely, with all the roads out and traffic backed up, that's what it takes to get it here. Yet another economic burden, to go with tens of thousands of layoffs.
New York is a special case because it was at the center of the attacks and the transportation infrastructure has been closed or restricted since then (though I'm sure there are still restrictions in and around the Pentagon). If the refineries in New Jersey had been attacked, then there would have been a legitamate excuse for the higher gasoline prices.
Anybody involved in price gouging should be investigated. At least outside of Manhattan, there is no real reason for such increases.
Can the trackage that connects the BMT to the IND near Essex Street be reactivated?
If it can, you might then be able to run 6th Avenue trains through that tunnel, then down Nassau Street and the Montague Street tunnel.
The B/D could be extended to Bay Ridge and Coney Island in this manner...
www.forgotten-ny.com
Good idea, but the problem is that any train going SB on 6th Ave, then switching to BMT Eastern Div tracks via Essex St. connector, would then be facing NB at Essex St. It would have to reverse direction at Essex St., and switch to the SB BMT track, in order to access the Montague Tunnel via Nassau St. Too much time lost.
Looking at the NYC Transit websiste at 3 PM Saturday, I noted that the N and R are running through between Brooklyn and Queens via Manhattan, but are skipping Whitehall, Rector, Cortlandt, City Hall, Canal, Prince. Does this mean that the N and R are being routed via Manhattan Bridge? Seems that the normal N/R tunnel adjacent to WTC site is probably full of debris and water.
Guess we're going to see some major reroutings on the N/R, the A/C/E, and the 1/2/3. Earlier postings have already covered this, but it seems obvious that the 1/9 below Chambers St. will be OOS for a long time (years?). Guess the best solution is through-route the 1 with the 3 from New Lots to 242 (the old Broadway/7th Ave. express route) and keep the old 3 only betw 148 and 34th Sts.
And PATH...the WTC station will probably not open for several years as well.
And to finish - hats off and applause to all NYCTA and PATH personnel, from train service employees to managers, who have toiled under horrible conditions and still are doing their usual professional job!!
Is the Q running express in Manhatthan?
The Q is running via bridge, then local in Manhattan. First stop is Canal Street, then Prince Street, etc.
David
You cannot route IND 6th Avenue services south on the BMT Nassau Line without going thru a reverse procedure near Essex Street station, and this would foul up "J" and "M" services using the line.
not if they used the center track
Nope, because the track coming from B`way-Nassau connects up to the Brooklyn-bound J/M/Z track from the south side, not the north, which means it has no access to the switch to the center track until it's on the east side of the Essex Street station.
Other than running the J/M through to Brooklyn, the only other alternative to use the Montague tunnel and the Nassau loop is to run split N/R service from Coney Island/95th St. to Canal or the Bowery and from Canal on the B'way line to Astoria and 71st-Continental. The N/R trains would be able to use the center track to turn between Bowery and Essex, though they would have to swap out the 8-car 75-foot trains for some 8-car 60-footers (probably from the Slant 40s on the Q). It would require more switching than running the J/M all the way down to CI, but would be slightly less confusing for the passengers to keep the N/R designations on the Southern Division (at least until the first time their train pulled into the Broad Street station).
What they could have done is connect the J or M with the 6th Av. Shuttle or the C. But what I hear now is the J will go to 95th, an the M to Stillwell via West End. The Q may go to Continental to replace the R
The simplest thing to do is to run the R from Continental to Canal. Run the N from Astoria to Canal. Run the J through to Coney Island via Sea Beach. Change the Brooklyn section of the R into a shuttle between 59th and 95th Sts. All this, until regular service can be restored.
I have received word by chance while I was working down at Stillwell Avenue this evening of the pending N,R service substitution starting on Monday.
Here is the Break Down: 1) J Service extended to 95 Street to replace the R 2)M Service extended to Stillwell Avenue, serving the Sea Beach "N" Line 3) Both Qs to operate to Continental Av to replace Rs in Queens 4) W Trains will continue to cover Astoria Service.
This also in: E service slated to operate from Parsons-Archer to 2nd Avenue.
With that said, it sounds like C service is returning on Monday.
All reroutings are sunbject to change.
-Stef
Dont Forget When ParkPlace gets Drained 1 to New Lots all Times
That also starts Monday.
No.1 to New Lots EXEPT Nights
Nights only to Chambers
[3) Both Qs to operate to Continental Av to replace Rs in Queens 4) W Trains will continue to cover Astoria Service. ]
IMHO it would make more sense to run Qs to Astoria and W to Continental.
The current plan would leave Astoria underserved.
Arti
I don't think Q service would improve things in Astoria, after all there was only N Service in Astoria prior to the Manny B Switch. It's food for thought, but Queens Blvd is much longer and is a busy corridor.
-Stef
W only to Astoria would leave it underserved. Both Qs would provide about the same level as before.
Arti
Or they could run one Q to Astoria with the T (er.. I mean W) - Remember the T / QT combo prior to 1967?
Only problem with that would be confusing, also as W doesn't run midnight hours to Manhattan like R so things would be more clear.
Also Q express stops running at 9:30 the same time W stopped running to Astoria.
Arti
Running the Q to Astoria and the W to Continental would lead to a shortage of Queens Blvd. local trains into Manhattan. And running "split Q" service -- one line to Astoria and one to Continental which would add more confusion, and still wouldn't provide enough trains.
They could split the Qs and run one part through the 60th St. tunnel and one part through the 63rd St. tunnel, which would open up some track space between 49th St. and the 11th St. cut to allow some N trains to run between Canal and Astoria, but then the QB riders would have to learn that the circle Q stops at Queens Plaza and 60th-Lex and the diamoond Q doesn't (or vice versa).
[W to Continental would lead to a shortage of Queens Blvd. local trains into Manhattan]
Doesn't W run about the same headways as R. Also perhaps it would be a good idea to start V early.
Arti
I was thinking the W ran about two trains fewer per hour than the R, though I could be wrong. As for the V, the really can't do anything with that until Chambers-WTC is fixed up enough to at least turn E trains there, if not discharge passengers, because right now it has to use the Houston-Second Ave. station as it's terminal.
[As for the V, the really can't do anything with that until Chambers-WTC is fixed up enough to at least turn E trains there, if not discharge passengers, because right now it has to use the Houston-Second Ave. station as it's terminal. ]
I thought that they will be running Es to Brooklyn starting tomorrow.
At night V wouldn't be running.
Arti
If the E runs to Brooklyn, then the C can't run. Unless the A runs local, CPW gets half the service it's used to and no weekend service (since the B only runs weekdays), and there's no direct service at all to 50th Street from the north.
If there is any way the C can possibly run, the C should run.
From the TA website, E to Bklyn no C starting Monday. This info is effective 7:45 Sunday night. The E to 2nd Ave was never made official and I think it was just a rumor, or maybe just at night it goes there.
I see that. It's one of the few serious mistakes I see in the plan. There's no need for CPW to lose half of its local service (and, officially, all of it on weekends, although that can't be correct). The E can turn at 2nd Avenue or (in November) WTC.
The question is: exactly how much service does the 8 local CPW stops see? If it's less than the A and D north of 125th, then keeping the A and D express would be justified. However, the last time C service was dropped, trainsets were gained on the E and B lines. So, if the C is cancelled, then there can be extra trains put on the B line.
Didn't Stef say that the "E" was terminating at 2nd av? If so, that means that the C train is either running, or Pitkin has a lot of cars lying around...
Maybe the TA hasn't decided yet what's in store for next weekend on CPW, and it's still possible that the B may resume weekend operation if the C remains suspended. Or they might just run the D local on CPW. The D is not that long of a route now that it doesn't go south of 34th Street.
My opinion -- and I realize it's an unpopular one around here -- is that local service is primary. Once there is sufficient local service, express service may be added as a supplement.
The question is not how many passengers use each local station -- it's how many use all local stations combined. On CPW, it's a lot, since that's a long express run, and most of its passengers are not in walking distance of an express stop (although they may be able to walk to the 1/2/3). Even middays, those local stations get more crowded than many here would believe, and the last time I rode a rush hour local on CPW it was as jammed as the IRT. The B and the platforms at 59th will be a nightmare.
That used to be a fast express run. It isn't anymore. I'd be surprised if it saves three minutes over the local. CPW local riders lose a lot more than three minutes with the current plan.
I also believe that local service is important, but not necesarily primary. Express trains like the A are packed when they reach 59th, meaning that there are a lot of people on the trains before the local stops. If those train made all local stops, imagine the A train then?
Hence, the A and D should remain in place. If the E is going to 2nd av, then there's no reason to continue the C's suspension. If the E is running to brooklyn, then there should be some trainsets to expand service on CPW. But I agree with your point, there's no reason to make people wait on a local for extreme periods of time when expresses could be re-routed as locals.
The E is going to Brooklyn, but only for lack of a place for it to turn.
But it has a place to turn! Two, perhaps, if the WTC tracks are usable. (Or, as someone else suggested, the C could run out to Eastern Parkway.)
If there were no way to keep the C running, I'd shut up, just as I'm not complaining that the 1 isn't running to South Ferry.
But the C can be kept running, quite easily. There's no need for this service cut.
B service can't be increased by much. The last time the C was suspended, the B had two tracks at its south terminal. Now it has one.
Assuming the A runs local on weekends, service patterns will be confusing. The only weekday local service will go to 6th Avenue. The only weekend service will go to 8th Avenue.
No it wouldn't. The level of service (with an expected supplemental schedule in effect) will be at the exact level it was before the Man. Bridge switch.
How would they fit additional service over the bridge?
Arti
Well it will be the Q (both) and the W going over the bridge. Shouldn't be a problem.
Agreeded, but where?
Arti
You'll have the same services over the bridge: (Q), < Q > and W. The new changes north of Canal will be the W and circle-Q running local from Canal to 57th and the diamond-Q running express to 57th. It should be the same amount of local service in Manhattan, but there will be considerably less express service.
If this new pattern ("J" to 95th Street/"M" via Sea Beach/"Q" to Queens) is going to be in effect for the forseeable future (as damage to the Cortlandt Street station would seem to indicate) - are they going to print new maps and re-sign the stations?
wayne
Let's find out, first, how long it will take to restore N and R service through the Cortlandt Street station, and worry about the details (not that they're unimportant) later. Who here has actually been inside the Cortlandt Street station, or any part of the BMT in that area for that matter, and who here has the engineering and/or contracting experience, to definitively tell us that it is damaged and to what degree? I'd wager the answer is, nobody.
David
This was a major incident! #1 express? J into brooklyn past broad street? WOW!
No N Service
If it's not intended to be long term , but rather temporary, maps and other relevant items will remain the same.
-Stef
Why both Q's to Continental?
I'm surprised two Q's can fit along with the G. Don't the two Q's run more often than the combined R and (proposed) V? It was decided that the G had to be cut back to make room for the V.
Running two Qs and the G along Queens Blvd. shouldn't average more trains per hour than the B/D/Q used to run across the Manhattan Bridge between DeKalb and Rockefeller Center, which should be the same number of TPH right now across the south side of the bridge (and now on 60th St.) for the Qs and the W.
The G Train runs less often. The R Train runs more often. So there's should be room for the Q Loacl and Q Express!
I wish I had numbers to provide you. If I may ask, why wouldn't they run both Q's that way? All Qs end at 57th St and aren't really two separate lines since they generally run the same way (merely local vs exp), the goal is to keep the Astoria and Queens Blvd Corridors up to maximum capacity, so those folks should experience much of a loss in service.
E,F,G,Q, and Q? Don't look at it that way. E,F,G, and Q is more like it. But do look at it this way, the longer the route of the Q is, the more equipment they will need to cover the line.
-Stef
Operationally, the Q's are treated as separate lines. They have different south terminals. One runs at all times; the other only runs weekdays. Etc. Only in designation (Q) are they treated as a single line.
More importantly, each Q runs with approximately the same headways as the R, if not shorter. Running both Q's to Queens is a tremendous boost in service. Now, I never mind a service boost, but it seems strange that, with the mess the system is in right now, that the TA is going around handing out major service improvements for no reason. And if the Queens Boulevard local can't handle both Q's along with the G, service on both Q's will be cut -- leaving Queens with no service boost at all but giving the Brighton line (and the Manhattan Bridge, which is much more important now than it was a week ago) a service cut. It makes more sense to send only one Q to Queens Boulevard and to maintain if not improve service on both Q's (to properly handle Brooklyn).
The two Qs have 20 trains, the G has six. My guess is they can handle 26 trains on the line. Either that or the G will be cut back.
I wonder if either or both Qs will use the 63rd Street tunnel.
This is the moment for the Nassau Loop. Completed in the Depression, it was never as important as expected because the main office center shifted to Midtown in WWII. It is one of those lines we talked about, where we say "if they knew and had spend the money on X instead."
As it happens, Broad Street and Fulton Street have been rehabbed, and have much more capacity than they use. If enough influential people see the usefulness of the line, maybe running the lower half of the Second Avenue into it won't seem so fanciful.
And just as importantly, for the first time ever on Monday there are going to be a lot of people seeing how gawd-awful the condition of the J/M/Z station at Chambers Street is.
Since no trains from there go north of Delancey it's been ignored because it carries "non-influential" people, even though it's only 100 yards or so from City Hall. The upper Manhattan types still won't be using it, but a lot more people from Brooklyn will, and the press is sure to be charting the changes in routes on Monday and could have TV cameras in the Chambers St. station, showing it in all its decrepit glory.
NOOOOOOOOO... my N train.... *sob* *sob* ... at least I get the M instead of the W...
Aye! Expect car assignments to change as a result of the Eastern Division invading the Sea Beach and 4th Avenue lines like they've never done before.
Be aware that those Js and Ms are going to have to run 8 Car Lengths because of their short platforms on the els in Brooklyn and Queens.
-Stef
Hoefully, no one will be napping at CI yard around 4:30 a.m. tomorrow when they start sending out the N and/or Q Slant 40 and R-32 trains re-signed as Js or Ms, and will make sure the last pair of cars have been decoupled from the rest of the train. I'm sure that's being done right now, but if someone slips up, the passengers in cars 9 and 10 will be in for a surprise when the train gets to Broad Street and the doors open in the tunnel.
Is there some way to lock out the doors in the last two cars, preferably from the C/R's cab?
If so, the C/R could announce at Court that all passengers in the last two cars should move up. If they miss the announcement, no big deal -- they'll quickly realize that they'll need to move up if they ever want to get off the train. I think the Jamaica platforms are long enough for all ten cars (since they're directly below the E platforms); passengers bound for the last two stops on the J/Z would be able to escape the crowds by moving back.
The two extra cars would still be useful in Brooklyn; I'm sure many will jump ship at Pacific and DeKalb.
(It's probably not worth it to plan on running 10-car trains, but if some 10-car trains haven't been broken up and need to be used as-is, I think this could work.)
In order to prevent doors from opening in a given car or cars, each door engine would have to be individually cut out with the key at the side of each seat. Simply dropping out appropriate circuit breakers in each car is not allowed as it can have an adverse effect on indication.
In other words, it can be done, but it would take a few minutes (after closing up at Court or before opening up at Broad).
If the TA could have three or four employees going back and forth between Court and Broad locking and unlocking the doors (board at Court, lock the doors while the train is in motion and chase passengers out of the cars while they're at it, get off at Broad, cross over, do the reverse on the trip back to court, ad infinitum), it might not cost any time at all. Oh, and someone would have to reverse the job at Metropolitan and Jamaica Center (unless the first two cars can dangle off the platform on the return trip -- stop markers in the tunnels?).
Doesn't sound great to me, but it might be necessary if not enough eight-car trainsets can be linked up by tomorrow morning.
10 cars at Metropolitan Ave, does not work. The last 2 cars would block the switches.
Oh. Phooey.
But, in theory, my idea would work on the J, yes?
R-40S's on Queens Blvd Line AGAIN!!! YES!!!!!! I LOVE R-40S's!!!!!
I think this is what will happen: Since the F is the only line currently running Express, the Q Express will join with the F. The G will be in its regular service. The E will be local and the Q Local-who knows local to replace the R. But it'd be great to see R40 Slants on Queens Blvd-Better than riding the R "BOATY" 6s on the F. Every time I ride those cars, I'm getting seasick with the back and forth rocking. I do miss the R32s going Express on the E.
Also heard that R38s will be going to the E to assist in service?
I'll be on the lookout tomorrow for some strange trains under QB.
Keep you all posted.
#3774 E to Jamaica Center
#4376 Q Local to Continental Ave
Why would the E run local?
The Q is simply a replacement for the R; it and the G should run local, with the E and F express.
Besides, terminating an express at Continental while sending a local through to Jamaica is a silly arrangement.
Who says you can't go home again?
Hold your excitement for now -- since the M and J trains cannot use the Southern Division R-68 N trains operating out of CI yard to extend service, chances are many of the Slant-40 Qs will go to the Sea Beach and Fourth Ave. lines for use through the Nassau Loop. Some Slants may still be around for Q service, but the bulk of the line figures to be R-68s until the Church St. section of the Broadway line is reopened.
The R-42's on the M and the existing R-32's and R-40's on the N are probably more than sufficient for combined M/N service. (I'm guessing, but keep in mind that there are already enough to make it to Bay Parkway, and Stillwell is only a bit further.)
How many more trainsets will be needed to extend the J/Z to 95th? Not terribly many. Remember, the N has lots of R-32's and R-40's.
My guess is that the Q won't give up any of its cars to the J/M/Z. Instead, it will probably receive extra cars from Jamaica to cover for the R in Queens. When was the last time R-46's operated on the Brighton line?
I'm not sure if R46 equipment EVER operated on the Brighton Line in regular service. I have never personally seen one there. R44 equipment, YES - R44 cars #260-335 (as originally numbered) were assigned to the "D" line when first delivered - after the Kings Highway derailment, they were moved to the "A" line.
wayne
R-46s did indeed run on the Brighton Line, from ca. 1975 to 1980, in D service. Since that time, they have never been assigned there, though a train has been rerouted there from time to time, and an occasional "gap" train of R-46s has been put into D service.
David
Some Rs out of Jamaica probably will be resigned as Qs for a while. Whether or not the Slants stay on the Q will depend on how many extra trains the J has to borrow from the N out of CI and whether or not that's enough to cover the Chambers St.-95th St. line extension.
BTW -- I wonder how they are going to handle AM-PM skip stop on the Broadway-Brooklyn and Jamaica els for now, or if it's going to be eliminated for a while? I'm assuming all rush hour trains will be signed as Js on the line west of Myrtle, which will make skip stops there confusing, while running the J to 95th will be confusing enough, let alone running the J and Z there to maintain the difference between the two trains east of the Willie B. And running the Z to Chambers while continuing the J to 95th will mean a shortage of Fourth Ave. local trains in Brooklyn.
I doubt the Z will turn at Broad.
Either both the J and the Z will run through to 95th or (less likely, IMO) skip-stop will be suspended. I highly doubt the J and Z will have different termini.
Z trains are discontinued until further notice. That includes the service plan taking effect Monday morning.
David
Also 9 trains?
(My impression is that the 1/9 skip-stop arrangement was never very popular except at the all-trains stops way up north. If I'm right, this may be an opportunity to eliminate the 9. I don't know how J/Z riders feel about skip-stop.)
The J express run in Brooklyn will be in operation, correct?
As someone posted, the service plan as of Monday, September 17 is now up on the MTA website. What's posted is pretty detailed.
David
Yes, it's up. Looks good, overall.
There are still some discrepencies.
According to what's posted, CPW local service will be halved on weekdays and eliminated entirely weekends. IMO, the A should run local on CPW at all times until the C is restored. The local there isn't much slower than the express; passengers waiting at the eight local stations shouldn't have to double their waiting times so passengers from the ten stations further north won't lose two or three minutes. The IRT is an alternative for many, but the IRT will be severely messed up as it is. And as for weekends, either the A (or D) will have to run local or the weekend B will be revived.
(Until the V starts, why can't the E turn at 2nd Avenue and the C run its regular route? In November, the WTC station should be cleared up for relays if not for passenger service, so the E will be able to go home again.)
The circle-Q will be extended to Queens. Why not the diamond-Q, which is a much shorter run? The announcement implies that the diamond-Q won't run middays anymore -- a mistake, IMO, given that service between Manhattan and Brooklyn is already worse than usual.
Why are both the Q and W running local in Manhattan? Will the diamond-Q be local or express in Manhattan? The announcement isn't entirely clear.
The 1/2/3 (no 9) will all be switching north of 96th Street: the 1 will be express and the 2/3 will be local. While this is excellent for me personally -- I live at a local stop -- won't it cause extensive delays at 96th? ISTM that the arrangement of the GO a few weekends ago -- 1 local to Chambers, then to New Lots; 2 express as usual; 3 express to 42nd -- eliminates all delays at the expense of possible confusion in Brooklyn.
Overall, though, the plan is a good one and I'm glad to see it posted in detail. There will be massive confusion tomorrow but I'm sure everyone will understand.
I was not part of the team that designed the service plan. I'm sure that the people who DID design the plan had their reasons, whether because of switching capacity, car availability, trying to keep as close to the "normal" service plan as possible, or other reasons. If I have a chance to ask (and if it appears that the people in a position to answer have the time to do so), I will ask.
David
Thanks.
Given the circumstances, I'm glad we have any service at all. It's a nice surprise to see that the actual plan is very similar to what a number of SubTalkers came up with independently -- it helps us maintain the myth that we actually understand the system (or that the TA bases its service plans on the ideas of a bunch of random, mostly anonymous posters to a public message board).
Z service has been suspended, as well as skip/stop service.
Half of the M is now made up of slants, and at least one set of R32's.
I did not see any R32's on the M Monday or Tuesday.
I did Monday afternoon on the Willy B.
R32's on the Jamaica EL again,something I thought I would never see again ever in life.
I would love to see them railing at the Rego Park and Elmhurst GT's and flying through the N Blvd Bypass again, but I think in this situation their lot will be to toil as "J" and "M" trains in Eastern Division. I wonder if there is layup capacity out there for them, especially those being used as "J"("R") trains.
wayne
Hey Wayne, it sounds as if we'll have to take one of those Q trains for a spin out to Queens. With the 63rd St. connector, we'd kill two birds with one stone.
Don't be so sure that you'll find R-40s there. The Eastern Division cannot utilize 75 footers on their lines. I can see more Slant 40s on the J and Z while R-46s may pop up on the Q.
-Stef
The Q will be mostly R68's (and a couple of 40's) since the J/M will be using slant 40's and even some 32's for the extra service.
Go figure, R32's again on the East. Thought I'd never see that again.
Well the R40s may go to the eastern division. The J and M need those cars, since only the 60' cars can run on the new J and M routes (that will replace N and R). The Q will probably get all the R68's from the N.
Yup, as well as the "gulp" hippos as well. I also rode an R38 E train yesterday.
Why are BOTH Qs terminating at Continental and not 179??? They are making relays at Continental HARDER and leaving 179th empty???? This makes no sense whatsoever. If there was ever a more better time to use the Hillside exp tracks!!!! They can't do G/R/V relay at Continental, what makes them think they can do G/Q/Q relay there????
The Q is intended to replace the R, not go all the way out to 179 St. I don't consider the two Qs to be individual lines, merely local vs express service. As a combined service, the Q should not exceed the number of trains normally available on the R. That's a misconception. I wish I had numbers to produce.
-Stef
Check the timetables.
At the height of rush hour, headways on the Q local are 6-8 minutes, on the combined Q's 2-6 minutes, and on the R 5-8 minutes. Middays, headways on the Q local are 10 minutes, on the combined Q's 2-6 minutes, and on the R 10 minutes.
The terminology is confusing, but think back to before July 22. Were the D and Q two halves of the same service? Of course not -- no more than the 1, 2, 3, and 9 being a single service.
A single Q has approximately the same service level as the R. The two Q's together have about twice as much service as the R.
If they are able to relay that many trains around at Forest Hills, then they would have had no problems from that standpoint with the G, R and V.
The (Q), < Q > and W have to max out at 30 tph on the Manhattan Bridge. Make that 10 tph or 6 minute headways for each service. Add 6 tph for the G and that makes relaying 26 tph at Forest Hills.
The proposed November changes were 10 tph for the V and R. The TA said they couldn't add the existing 6 tph G's for relaying 26 tph at Forest Hills. 20 tph was the max they said they could do for a facility designed for 40 tph.
If they are able to relay that many trains around at Forest Hills, then they would have had no problems from that standpoint with the G, R and V.
Exactly.
Conversely, if the G, R, and V can't all relay at Continental, then neither can the G, Q, and Q.
(Why do I feel like I'm explaining NP-completeness to my CS 373 students?)
"Conversely, if the G, R, and V can't all relay at Continental, then neither can the G, Q, and Q."
My point exactly.
And they won't. The MTA website has only the circle-Q running to Forest Hills. The W and circle-Q will be local in Manhattan and only the diamond-Q will run express. I guess the W alone is not enough for local service on the Broadway BMT so they need the circle-Q there too.
Where is diamond Q to end if it isn't turning at Continental? They make no point on that. It could end at 57th but what's the point?? Then it should go through and the circle should be held up.
I think the diamond-Q will end at 57th Street, even the MTA doesn't clearly say that it will, which they should.
The plan is for the diamond to end at 57th and the circle to go through.
That's backwards, IMO. Let the circle end at 57th and have the diamond go through. Both Q's should be express in Manhattan; the W will pick up the local slack. If necessary, send supplemental W service between Ditmars and Canal, local.
Headways on the various services during this emergency situation are not necessarily the same as what is normally scheduled. (No, I don't have the timetables handy.)
David
True.
But if the combined Q is being run at the former R's headways, the Brighton line -- its local stations, in particular -- will be severely underserved, and Broadway itself will have less than half the service it used to have.
Well they may cut the G back to Court Sq permanently, that would solve the congestion problems.
Of course they're different. The 2 routes are diffrent. There are no other letters availiable. No way pre-July Brighton Riders were able to fit into cramped trains and have even less service post-july.
Why does the MTA website (latest update of Sunday Sept. 16, 10:00AM) say nothing of the substitutions? If the substitutions are going to happen, wouldn't they give at least a day's notice? Also, it says that N trains are running from Ditmars to Stillwell skipping Prince and Canal. It doesn't say over bridge. The only Ns that are going over the bridge are the ones during weekend and late night. Does this mean that Ns are using the Montague tunnel?
No. All Ns are running over the Bridge at present time in place of the W Service due to a GO in effect (surprisingly). Not very clear on the R, but they should still be running to Court St at the present time.
Everything changes at a moment's notice. Besides, who's working at MTA headquarters over the weekend?
-Stef
R trains are running over the bridge to Continental Avenue because of the same G.O. that's causing the N trains to run over the bridge this weekend.
As to who's working at NYCT Headquarters, many people are. Contrary to the opinions of some, they're not at home "fiddling while Rome burns." They're trying to piece the transit system back together, and they're working very hard at it.
David
Well, that's good to hear. It's not meant to be an insult, I was just thinking to myself if the website isn't updated at a moment's notice, who's around?
-Stef
Hey Stef: I'll know if I don't get an answer. Am I still in your killfile?
I have never used the killfile on anyone (not even you). There is such a thing called selective reading where I read certain messages and not others....
What made you ask, by the way?
-Stef
I had heard that subwaysurf has killed filed me and that you are a friend of his and a Bronx man. I added two and two together and it came out five. Good to know I'm, not on your drop dead list. Have a great day.
PS, I heard I was one of the topics of conversation between you and a few others at Branfield. I hope you guys didn't skewer me too badly.
And we all appreciate it. Really.
I would have guessed that the scheduled GO's would have been suspended for now, but it looks like I guessed wrong. Some of the service advisories that went up on Friday make reference to now-impossible routings. I guess we'll all have to play it by ear until things settle down.
I'm curious about this weekend's 4/5 GO. The 5 was supposed to run down the 2 to Chambers and then the 1 through South Ferry. That clearly isn't an option. So what's happening? No 5 at all south of E180th? That means there's no service, even northbound, between 125th and 149th-GC.
I assume the G.O. in question (which apparently was not canceled), is the one at the south end of DeKalb Manhattan bound. This weekend was the scheduled concrete pour into the new switches. It was a no brainer to run this G.O., since as of Monday there will be no N & R service thru Brooklyn due to concerns at Cortlandt & Rector St's. I am sure that the M and possibly the J will run thru there 24/7 for awhile and of course, if you don't pour the concrete this weekend, it may be delayed for months since you now cut off access to the Nassau St. line.
Here's a whole new problem...the effect on capital and maintenance work. It looks like RTO is going to have to relax its "no double hit" criteria, and we are all going to have to put up with more delays, or capital work will have to cease. Of course it has ceased -- lack of construction workers.
They've got to keep the Atlantic Avenue, Times Square and 72nd Street station rehabs going, along with the White Plains Rd signal job, but all are on the West Side IRT.
"No double hit"?
This weekend the work on the J between Eastern parkway and Cypress Hills was not canceled. Also the Queens Blvd G.O. worked.All other G.O.s were suspended indefinitely (according to Stations).
The 5 was running from Dyre to Flatbush in both directions this weekend, skipping Wall st. The only IRT trains in Brooklyn were the 4 and 5.
And the 4 was running through (not Woodlawn to 149-GC and 125 to Brooklyn)? Then that GO was cancelled.
The 2/3 trains started running sometime before 7pm I presume. I was on R142 #6306 last car south end heading northbound from downtown Brooklyn around that time.
Observations:
Air conditioner shut off right before we entered Wall St station. The train stopped at both Wall and Fulton to scarce patronage and some police presence. (actually police are seen in many places along lower Manhattan & downtown Brooklyn) Both stations appear OK. Train leaves the station slowly and crawls until Franklin St.
Park Place - looks OK! If there was a flood here, then the TA must have done quite a job. Not much dust seen on platform. Station was skipped.
Chambers St - platform covered with thin layer of white dust. Station was skipped.
Franklin St - at this point the #2 continues up making all local stops including Franklin St. The route lights blanked out somewhere around Christopher St. Air conditioner resumes.
I got off at Times Sq... the rear bulk light was also off where it supposed to display the red circle 2. Saw downtown 1 on express platform at 42nd St.
There was a debate over whether to cancel ALL General Orders. Ultimately, it was decided that selected ones HAD TO operate, because (in general) the system was better off with them operating than not operating regardless of the constraints due to the World Trade Center incident. In some cases, for example, the work covered under the General Order was almost completed, and completion would improve the operation of the system. (Sorry, but I don't have a list of which General Orders operated this weekend or the specific reason each one had to operate.)
David
That makes sense.
But, from what appears on the TA's web site, it looks like whoever posts the GO's there is unaware of the temporary service changes. For instance, there are upcoming service changes listed for the N and R even though the N and R won't be running as of tomorrow.
The R is seeing the light of day? Wow, that's a switch. But who cares about that line anyway except those who have to ride that hapless train. Give me info on my beautiful Sea Beach.
The N will be suspended. The M train will be going over the Sea Beach. The M goes over a bridge, the Williamsburg!
I'm there for ya, Fred... I'll see how things go tomorrow morning...
The Sea Beach Line and its beautiful classic Italianate stations will still be there but the trains will be R40Ms and R42s (and possibly Slant R40s too) and will wear the Brown sign of Nassau Street's "M" rather than the traditional gold of the "N".
I would have left the "N" alone, running it over the Bridge and on to Astoria; and then ran the "M" down the West End, and local via 4th Avenue.
wayne
The MTA has the information upto date on the J and M changes. including the extensions however none of the news broadcast are reporting it. What a confusing Monday morning it will be.
Hooray, I'm happy again. The Sea Beach is onthe bridge. What the next post tells me, well, who knows? I feel like I'm in a revolving door and can't get out.
Well, the M is running local along 4th Ave.
I've just had a revelation and, typically of me, I didn't realize it right away. If the M is running on the Sea Beach line in Brooklyn, and goes to Metropolitan Avenue, then it doesn't share the tracks with the R very much does it? I hate the R. The 4th Avenue local of my youth was a crappy line. I had to ride it for five stops before I could split and take a real train, the Sea Beach Express. Is Metropolitan Avenue in Brooklyn or Queens? That I don;t know. It could be in either. Is it elevated or subway? One thing is certain, no more Astoria.
Could the M Sea Beach become an express or not? Quick guys, get to it and feed me the info. Thanks.
Metropolitan Avenue station is in Queens, in the Middle Village section. It is AT GRADE (ground level) and is located near 67th Street and Metropolitan Avenue. The station dates from 1976, replacing an old, wooden station which was destroyed by fire in 1975.
It's not a bad-looking station either.
wayne
Thank you Wayne. Got to keep up with the new Sea Beach. But I wonder what's coming next.?
Don't know, Fred - but I'll tell you this much, you guys seemed to have cornered the market on my beloved Slant R40s. They'd worn "M" before but only for the Willy B reconstruction shuttles. NOW the cream of the fleet is out in force, pounding the rails on the great Sea Beach Railroad and proudly showing off their elongated railfan windows.
As for express service, I wouldn't bet the rent money on it - even during rush hours and mid-days. Don't forget, they're going via tunnel. They CAN switch from lcl to exp at Pacific, but they've only got the "J" for help between 59th and Pacific. The former "M" service that deadheaded at Bay Parkway and/or 9 Avenue is off the table for now.
I think that they should polish all the Diamond friezes in each and every Sea Beach station-house in honor of the Slants' triumph. Break out the ZAP, guys!
wayne
*ZAP is the stuff you see on TV and I saw the cleaners using it at a couple of Canarsie Line stations to get rid of the brown mould and to clean the tile band.
The slants also wore M for a time in 1992 and early 93.
It's going to take a lot more than ZAP to renovate Chambers St., if and when they ever get around to it.
If it's true that R-32s are once again plying the Q express, I'll take a train of them any time. Let's hope they're still running some Qs via Broadway express.
>> Let's hope they're still running some Qs via Broadway express <<
They are. Circle-Q trains to 71st/Continental are local in Manhattan; Diamond-Q trains to 57th&7th are express in Manhattan.
=Rednoise
(NewQirQ)
We have used Zap around our house. When you have four dogs romping about, one of which is a two month old puppy, ZAP can come in very handy.
Plus Fred who is only paper trained. How is Brittney Doing give her a hug for me
Unfortunately, M Sea Beach is still local.
Chaohwa
Somehow you haven't solved mine and the Sea Beach's problem. We must get to be express gain. But we don't kill the messenger around here.
It should run express and may do so eventually. if thE j runs as often as the R, there is no cut in 4th ave local service and the M should go express.
So there was a cut in R service last week that caused the N to run local?
The R has been suspended for the time being.
Hell, the 4th Avenue local (R) should have been suspended 50 years ago. I despised that line as a kid and hated to ride on it.
I was wondering for last week after the tradegy. The Ns were running on the local track and I don't know if that's because they reduced R service or not. Why was the N local?
The 4th Avenue local had the M/R weekdays and the N/R weekends. Now it has the J/M. Sending the M express would be a service cut to the local stations and a newly required transfer for anyone traveling between Sea Beach (or Stillwell itself) and the 4th Avenue local stations.
So the J does have longer headways than the R?
I have no idea what the new headways are like. (Keep in mind that a J train has about 80% of the capacity of an R train.)
But two weeks ago, there were two locals on 4th Avenue (between Pacific and 36th, at least) all times except nights. Now there are also two locals on 4th Avenue all times except nights. Why should one go express?
There is no such thing as the R anymore. The R's former routing in Brooklyn is now served by the J; its former routing in Manhattan and Queens is now served by the circle-Q.
The J and M share trackage from Myrtle all the way to 59th -- both local all the way.
The R is now the J Fred,and still shares lots of trackage, and the M is still a local.
I see you are still the bearer of distressing news. Maybe we all ought to call you Bob "Bad News" Rosenthal. Kind of has a nice ring to it, doesn't it guys?
Listen my buddy, I will send you a pot of home made grits with mashed onions mixed in it if you do not behave
I think it's still too early to bring back the Bob and Fred Show.:-)
You could do it, but like everyone else intimated, you would have to reverse trains coming from both directions, and that would foul J and M service.
You wouldn't need M service going to Brooklyn anymore, so you could cut the M back to Myrtle. But that would mess up the J.
Never mind, it's not going to work................
This was my response to a post that had disapeared during the last power outage... It is a commentary on the word "Closure" where in general I feel that the concept of "closure" might be some psycho-babble or possibly media-babble for 'healing' or maybe 'vengence,' but in the end I do not think that the concept of "closure" is the right way to heal oneself after an event such as this.
An interesting piece on NPR the other night articulated what I had thought for some time. What is Closure? It really doesn't exist. One life goes on, and another does not. All too often we have looked at air disasters, or bombings and have thought about people, and people have sought "closure" or maybe they mean... a way to go on living.
This event is too bi for that, I felt no horror over those on the airliner, even as I watched it run into the building. I felt no horror for those in the building. The event was just too big for horror. I did feel horror of a sorts as I watched the first tower colapse, or rather I saw dust and smoke, and then there was nothing.
That was an emotional moment, but in a different kind of perspective. A perspective of distance, of unreality.
If this was a movie, we might have said something about a "disturbance in the force." But Life *is* eternal. Jews, Christians, and Moslems all believe this. And eternity has (by definition) no beginning or end: and therefore the here and now is also part of this eternity. Those as who have died, be they good or evil, have moved from our part of eternity to another, and have moved beyond our care. There is horror and hurt among the living, among the next of kin, but the light and life of those who are no longer here are in fact, right exactly here, and will be for all eternity, and this light, this life, this force charges us with strength to carry on.
Think not of "Closure".... Think of OPENING, of reaching, of living, and of growing. Life Blossoms, and spreads. Seeds have been sown, and from these grows life, and strength, hope, and security and freedom.
Elias
IIRC, The Koran states that he(she) who murders another, murders all of society. This ties in with Powell's statement that this is a crime against all civilization.
The perpetrators have betrayed G-d, they have betrayed Allah, and they will burn in hell for their transgressions.
MATT-2AV
I'm wondering myself, Where do these people find in the Koran the justification to do what they've done?
Think not of "Closure".... Think of OPENING, of reaching, of living, and of growing. Life Blossoms, and spreads. Seeds have been sown, and from these grows life, and strength, hope, and security and freedom.
This reminds me of something I heard on the LIRR last night. A rainbow was visible in the southern sky as my train to Medford was waiting on the platform at Ronkonkoma. In the seats across the aisle, a young woman of about 20 was canoodling with her boyfriend. I won't go so far as to say she was dressed like a hooker, but close. She then spotted the rainbow, pointed it out to the boyfriend, and said "That must be God's sign that everything will be all right."
Well put.
I wanted to post this on Tueday,but because of obvious reasons I've waited until now.And hopefully this will briefly take our minds of this tragedy.
While I was doing some reaserch on how the Second Avenue line was suppose to be built,I found out that the 6 avenue line was included into the plans.That made me come up with these 5 Questions(some are irrelevent to the secondavenue line):
1.Besides the 2 Avenue line,Does the East side need any other subway lines?And If so,Can one be built on 5th or Madison Avenue?
2.Can these 2 lines(or that 1 line)include connections to SI,JFK and LGA?
3.Is a connection needed between the Rockaways and Rego Park and LGA via suwbay?
4.Is it possible to build a connection with the lower level of city hall,and the E terminal in Manhatthan with another trunk line?
5.How muc will all of the above cost?
2.
If this war on terrorizm goes on for any time the City could also issue War Bonds like the Feds are. Might raise enough to do the 2nd Ave., and more.
BTW:I will post my rough draft plans by he beginning or middle of October,Have The bourough 2 bourough plans out by Christmas and I hope to Have the 1 draft of my plans out by Mid to late January the earliest.
I am sort of puzzled by this,
This line is the most eastern subway in Manhattan. Is there some damage that I have not read about?
Wouldn't it make more sense to terminate the J at Chambers or Broad?
The J is now extended to Broad-all weekend.
That does seem to make more sense with Wall St planning on reopening on Monday.
the restrictions were originally due to possible structural problems with buildings, and fear that the subway vibrations could help cause the other buildings to fall. The 4+5 were also shut down due to this.
Also, until today, they wanted to restrict people from the area, and since the J doesn't go into Bklyn, there was no reason not to stop them at Essex.
Now that both of those conditions are ending, they're now sending the J's down all the way again.
Doesn't the J come from Brooklyn to get to Essex?
Yes, but he meant downtown Brooklyn.
I was puzzled as to why the J had to drop all of its Brooklyn & Queens passengers at Essex when the IRT which is closer to the disaster area could go south to Brooklyn Bridge (Chambers St).
Since all the streets south of canal was closed in the previous few days, there was no reason to send the J down. The IRT needed to get to Brooklyn, which was why they ran through that tunnel, but even the 6 terminated at Bleeckers.
I didn't quite understand why, on Friday, the 4/5 was stopping at Brooklyn Bridge but the Q/W was bypassing Canal and Prince. Um, isn't Brooklyn Bridge well south of both Canal and Prince?
The latest word I've bee hearing from the dispatchers' offices, is that the J will run to 95th, and the M via West End to Stillwell, beginning Mon. "AM and PM" (I don't know about other times). This is to replace the N & R presently cut of at Court St., until the Courtlandt & RectorSt. stations and tunnel inthe area are checked and cleaned.
I was told, Wednesday, that there was a change in status for the 80+ Redbirds in Concourse Yard. They were listed as 'Scrap Pending' status but are now listed as 'Storage' status. I don't think that the change is related to the external events of the week but my understanding was that the WF R-36s would be the cars placed in storage. Perhaps the Redbirds will be around a bit longer on the 4 & 7 lines.
Past experience in wartime is not to let go of any rail equipment, so the order on the Redbirds may well be related to the current situation.
(Past experience in wartime is not to let go of any rail equipment, so the order on the Redbirds may well be related to the current situation.)
Depending on the City and State economy, the NYCT may not be able to afford as many new cars as planned, needed or not. Money may be diverted to infrastructure. Clearly, we need a new capital plan.
Even if the rest of the new equipment comes in on schedule, it is good caution to hold on to serviceable equipment. It might be wanted for increased service, for war work, or even for other cities. As in the picture below of Manhattan el cars in Oakland war duty during WWII.
The war thought is interesting, though depressing. A general war in the Middle East would surely lead to a short term oil shortage, as in WWII, though at a far higher level of consumption. All sorts of otherwise unthinkable things -- from telecommuting to carpooling to transit and rail use -- might then begin to happen.
Does this mean the 38s will live longer?
It could mean that because of what's happened, Kawasaki & Bombardier may not be able to deliver the cars on the same schedule as originally planned.
It could also mean that the #7 cars may have slipped in the ratings and they will be scrapped instead of the Pelham cars.
It definitely means that the 80+ cars at Concourse Yard, that were listed as 'Scrap Pending' are now listed as 'Storage'.
Weren't the payments already made to the two companies? Because that may surely affect the number of cars built. I understand, of course, that delivery schedules will be affected because of the new security measures in effect at Port Elizabeth and in Upstate New York.
We pay after the order completes and the cars are good.
We actually pay as contractually specified milestones are reached. Those milestones may be either related to deliveries or performance or both.
So! my REDBIRDS will hang round' a bit longer !! ( now doing war duty ) ............
Now they will wish they had not dumped any of em' into the ocean !!!
Salaam, you know that's not what I said.... I said it was just a question as to whether the Corona cars or the pelham cars will be the ones placed in storage.
ok i am not going after anybody ........especially after what has just happened ..........
........the redbirds lasting a bit longer made me feel a whole lot warmer inside thats all ........
damn !! i wanted to see them in person for my 11 03 01 @ 50th birthday .............( sigh ) !!!!!!!!!.
please hang on to as many of them as possible so i can see them one more time before they go !!! ................crying ...........!!!
salaam, come to New York in nov. just don't do any video.
Simon Billis and I will be railfanning on November 14, if you are in town then we can meet up somewhere in the city.
wayne
that is the purpose to shoot thru the railfan window ......... on the surviving redbirds !!!
Salaam, with the heightened security abounding, I doubt that I could get you into Concourse Yard to see anything. Hopefully things will simmer down by November but I think they'll just be getting tighter.
like carcking down on us subway / transit photography videography folks ???
geeeeeez i hope not sir !!
i dont want to see the horrible sights i am am man of peace !!!
You may be a man of peace but I wouldn't count on that to buy you any good will in NYC. I had to show my pass & parking permit to one of MY EMPLOYEES just to park in the parking spot with my name on it.
i would not want to enter employee areas however just stick to shooting video thru the railfan window !!!
( maybe this summer when things cool down )
like carcking down on us subway / transit photography videography folks ???
geeeeeez i hope not sir !!
i dont want to see the horrible sights i am a man of peace !!!
I don't think that the change is related to the external events of the week
What's the MDBF for the the R143's vs. the redbirds?
The R-143s are not yet in service and as such have no MDBF. Besides the 143s are B division cars and the redbirds A division and as such, the MDBF comparison would be meaningless in this discussion.
I don't think that the change is related to the external events of the week
I meant
What's the MDBF for the the R142's vs. the redbirds?
Again, since the R-142s are technically on test, their MDBF is not being recorded. Again, this seems to be between the Pelham and Corona cars and not a new vs old problem. Most redbirds will go. It was always planned that 140 redbirds would be retained. The question now is which and why.
<< It was always planned that 140 redbirds would be retained. >>
I always thought they should have kept some, but are you sure that has always been the plan ? That's the first I heard of it.
Actually, the plan was to keep 470 "Redbirds" (including an increase in IRT fleet size of 150 cars) after all 1,080 R-142 and R-142A cars came in. The cars would remain in service until they could be replaced by the next car class. The "next car class" turned out to be more R-142s and R-142As. When they're all in, the "Redbirds" will be gone.
David
I would guess here that all WH cars will be gone first. The better of the GE SCM cars would remain until the final order. Looking at batches of reef cars, the pattern seems to be the wheels, targeting the R26/8 and WH R36. Trucks that have been trued and those with flats are being retired, and those cars go into retirement with them. Body didn't have much to do with it. 7942/3 and 7950/1 had been through the paint shop and all ills taken care of, yet they left the property on the last boat. Corona has had better MDBFs than other fleets of car type, and since are not currently receiving replacements, are not letting down their guard on maintainance. Figure on non ECAM WH being retired by the end of the year.
I am glad to have the site up again.
I returned to work last night- NJT trains were very empty but subways were packed. I worked my regular Lunmch on the M line. AT several stations I could see the smoke on the horizon. Teh system was crawling with Police as was Penn STation.
I am writing this post to extend a hand to those on the board who happen to be of the Islamic faith. I realize that emotions are running high right now, here in New York and around the world. It might be tempting for others of lesser character to turn their anger on you.
I want to make a point loud and clear that I personally welcome you here, and I stand against your persecution on any level. This is America, and you are here for the same reason I am.
In summer of 1997, I was fortunate to have the chance to live with a Palestinian family as part of a Jewish American outreach program. I learned a lot about the Islamic faith, and what a deeply religious and peaceful people Muslims are. I also learned that what Osama Bin Laden practices isn't Islam, but a perverted interpretation stemming from hatred. I also learned about what the Koran says happens to those who kill falsely in the name of religion.
No religion is without it's misguided madmen. Christianity had the Spanish Inquisition, and Jewish extremists bent on war instead of peace assassinated Yitzhak Rabin. I also don't agree entirely with Israel's treatment of the Palestinian peoples, having spent time down South and learning about our own Civil Rights movement.
Please take this post as my personal gesture of welcome and apology for any mistreatment here or in the outside world. I know you are with America, because with such evil, you never know who or what culture is next,
MATT-2AV
Very nice post! I agree with you fully. Remember that Okalhoma City's disaster was caused by a white male!
True, but I don't think hairs should be split over who from which ethnicity did what. The fact of the matter is that the deed was done, to destroy, kill, and maime, and whoever pulled this stunt off and whoever is providing safe harbor for said persons should pay dearly.
Beautifully put. I, for one, am in complete agreement, and hope that everyone else is too.
Seth
I have some Malaysian Muslim Friends wholive in Danbury, and they condem all the violence done by their Co-religious people. I bet there were Muslims that perished in the WTC also
And yet malaysians in China were arrested today for planning a strike there against American interests. It seems that this incident has forged some very strange aliances.
Right On, Matt, Our fellow Americans of the Muslim faith deserve friendship, respect and protection from hateful bigots who don't have the intelligence to tell the difference between Islam, a loving religion, and the twisted garbage espoused by bin Laden and his piggish followers.
and the twisted garbage espoused by bin Laden and his piggish followers.
I can ASSURE you that no pig follows bin Laden and his Al-Qarappa organisation.
I apologize, bin Laden & Co. are actually sewer rats who will soon be incinerated by the wrath of the moral leaders of the world, the American people, then their tender flesh will be fed to wild boars.
I agree with you 100% Matt.Even though I'm outraged from those pictures of Palenstinians celebrating after this tragedy,the muslums here don't deserve the treatment their getting right now.BTW,IIRC Osama Bin Laden is also the only " Islamic " to be on the top 10 list which means not all Muslums/Islamics are bad(considering the majority of the people on that list is White no offence).
In summer of 1997, I was fortunate to have the chance to live with a Palestinian family as part of a Jewish American outreach program. I learned a lot about Islamic faith, and what a deeply religious and peaceful people Muslims are. I also learned that what Osama Bin Laden practices isn't Islam, but a perverted interpretation stemming from hatred. I also learned about what the Koran says happens to those who kill falsely in the name of religion.
Osama Bin Laden is to Islam what David Koresh was to Christianity.
Considering some of bin Landen's U.S. operatives were allegedly whooping it up with alcohol and naked strippers in a Florida topless bar/nightclub last weekend, I'd say there are a few parts of the Koran that don't mean much to them either, aside from the admonition not to kill innocent people.
Considering some of bin Landen's U.S. operatives were allegedly whooping it up with alcohol and naked strippers in a Florida topless bar/nightclub last weekend [... etc.]
Does anyone have a source for that assertion? Most every religion has nominal adherents who bend or break rules of their faith, but this makes no sense to me at all. If we assume that faith in Allah and the actual belief that they would go before Him helped motivate them or encourage them to commit a suicidal act, how could they possibly commit what seems like a serious sin in the face of death?
To me it's like saying that a devout Catholic facing certain death would blaspheme or a religious Jew would eat a non-Kosher feast. Can anyone who knows more about Islam than I comment on that?
Several channels reported patrons and/or owner of strip club seeing these people there.
Here's the New York Times article. It seemed really weird to me, too.
Seth
Sounds very like how the resistance survived in Europe during WWII. Act natural, be as normal or moreso than the neighbors. Do every day things. Speaks up for retinal scans for all travelers as ticket ID. They say it can't be faked, and once IDed someone would find it impossible to travel. I suggest this only for non metro travel. For all airline traffic it should be manditory.
I took a speech classs this past summer, in which there were two Iranians (one immigrant, one who spent so much time here that he might as well be considered American). One of them told me himself that in Islam, death is not something to be feared, for if they give their lives in acts of courage (meaning, stopping evil). In addition, as I have heard and read about, whoever pulls stunts like that on Tuesday, where they kill themselves and take thousands with them methodically, are to be cursed to the deepest pits of H***. Obviously, the perpetrators either skipped over that part, or badly misinterpreted it. The scary thing is, that there are thousands of people in the same situation as we speak.
Now, the problem is, can you tell whom from whom? And, how does one actually define a "courageous" act?
There are Black Angels in every faith.
So Israel's treatment of a people who wish genocide on them, of a people who already have a Palestinian Arab state (it's called Jordan) is akin to slavery and the Spanish Inquisition?
Alan Glick
"I also don't agree entirely with Israel's treatment of the Palestinian peoples, having spent time down South and learning about our own Civil Rights movement."
Do you EVER learn anything?
Way to go, Matt!
Great post. It says it all.
Since everyone here is willing to put away their angers toward Middle East people. I willing to do the same for sake that I still mourning the victim from this tragedy. For those of u who are Arab and living here in America for number of years, I'm apologized for the hatred things I've said about Arab few days ago. I was angry, frustrated, and hurt by tragedy. And I shouldn't inflicked my anger toward whole Arab community for what had happen here at home.
To Seth: What happened that day between me and u. I'm sorry.
To everyone here: I'm sorry embarass you guys.
Lastly, those of u who lose ur friends or love-ones or neighbors. My heart and prayer are with them and with u.
Bravo! It takes a big man to admit a mistake in public.
It's cool--I completely understand where you were coming from. Thanks, like steveboatti said, that was really brave.
Seth
Very well said. Thanks
Thank steveboatti, SethLJ, Nightrider, this really means alots to me.
I hope we could a friendships from here and united with the rest of our fellow American
"No religion is without its misguided madmen." How true. But Islam seems to have quite a few of them going around these days. A whole lot more than Bin Laden, who, by way, has not yet been proven to be behind the attacks in New York and Washington. How's about all of those suicide bombers in Israel? Those who sent them were "religious" men who promised them 70 virgins would be waiting for them in heaven should they succeed in blowing other people up with them. How's about Chechnya, Albania, Lebanon, Sudan, Afghanistan, India, the Philippines? All committing acts of murder in the name of Allah. Oh, have I left any out?
Absolutely Albania...
You can also tack in Turkey.
You know my whole outlook on life changed during the Rape of Serbia/Kosovo '99..
I no longer go blindly following and clapping to all of Americas Foreign Policies. 1999 was the year of my wake up call.
I am Orthodox Christian BTW. That explains why my support was with Serbia in her time of need.
All power to you. I wish the rest of the western world would wake up before it's too late. I had forgotten the genocide of East Timorans by Muslims, in the Indonesian archipelago, also 1999 (a whole millenium ago). The gradual, quiet exit of Christians from Bethlehem. The attacks by Muslims on Christians in northern Nigeria when the latter objected to institution of strict Islamic law. Probably still forgot a few. Reminds me of a song written by Al Stewart over 20 years ago:
Across the western world the lights are going down.
Disappear in the night
Leave your home
It's time for running out of the light
I see the hosts of Mohammad coming.....
"All power to you. I wish the rest of the western world would wake up before it's too late. I had forgotten the genocide of East
Timorans by Muslims, in the Indonesian archipelago, also 1999 (a whole millenium ago). The gradual, quiet exit of Christians
from Bethlehem. The attacks by Muslims on Christians in northern Nigeria when the latter objected to institution of strict Islamic
law. Probably still forgot a few. Reminds me of a song written by Al Stewart over 20 years ago:
Across the western world the lights are going down.
Disappear in the night
Leave your home
It's time for running out of the light
I see the hosts of Mohammad coming..... "
First, digusting actions, such as the ones you outline above, are by no means limited to Islam.
Second, if you're advocating a "Culturekampf" or a race war or something like that, I can introduce you to a guy who did it (except he died in 1945).
Third, if you fear hordes of people, attempting to overthrow our way of life, and seek to fight them by any means necessary, I can introduce you to two guys. The first, well, I've already mentioned him (he died in 1945), and the second, well, his name was Joseph and he died in 1953.
THERE IS NO FUNDAMENTAL CONFLICT BETWEEN "WESTERN" AND "ISLAMIC" "VALUES"--LOOK AT THE MUSLIMS LIVING IN THE WEST, HAPPILY "WESTERNIZED." THE ONLY THING STANDING BETWEEN THEM ARE SMALL MINDED BIGOTS, LIKE YOU, AND SMALL MINDED BIGOTS WHO ACT VIOLENTLY ON THEIR HATRED, LIKE BIN LADEN.
Sorry if this went a little too far, but you really made me angry. And if you want to get into a further debate on the relative merits and demerits of the "West" and the "Islamic World," e-mail me off-site--I'm sick of this.
Seth
It's good to know you understand some of things I feel.
and Yes, I feel Terrible about Tuesdays attacks. But, that jolt in 1999 was an awakening. The Klinton Adminstration really F'ed up the Foreign Policy in the Balkans. Hopefully more support will now go to the Christians instead of drug trafficking Albanian Muslims and other riff raff.
......first of all please spell the words ( Islam ) correctly ....I believe that ALL persons of any of the various Muslim Faiths
are agreed on one thing hyjacking an airliner using it as a weapon of war ( wtc ) is not something we would do, & dont approve of.
& just like we would not do this we feel the same no one else should do this as well reguardless of the divison of the Islamic faith !
& remember there were many muslims of all faiths who have lost thier lives last week when this disaster struck the wtc towers ....
if i was there i would put on my construction equipment & participate in the search rescue & removal of debris work !!
( thats what i would do if i lived there now ) !!! ......As Salaam Alaikum ..........{ peace be upon you }....
Salaam,
Nice to hear your opinion on this whole mess. As stated here by a SubTalker, Osama Bin Laden is to Islam as David Koresh is to Christianity.
I assume some Muslims working or visiting WTC may have lost their lives on Tuesday 9/11. But to the terrorists that may have been a small sacrifice. In yesterdays NY Post, Muhammad Ali (the boxer)was "anguished" about the terror attacks and said that they are a disgrace to the Muslim religion. The American Muslim community has been very quiet about this and when questioned give a "don't blame me" kind of answer. The American Muslim community needs to show the world their anger about the loss of life, great destruction in the name of Allah (according to Bin Laden and his cohorts).
Bill "Newkirk"
Thank you ......... i have this feeling of something i cant put to words war has such a horror & i am suffering from sleep disorders
etc. plus i am totally dissapointed that it looks like i will have to delay my 50th birthday celebration 11 03 01 railfan videotaping
I will join the transit museum so i can hear when the next time next summer the museum trains run & buy 2 tickets & ride !!!
Maybe thats how i should do it ..............( sigh ) .......
You know Salaam, I don't know why religion has to be brought into this. A person's religion is nobody's business but his own, and it is between him and his God. As long as we are loyal Americans, why should anyone care what faith they observe?
thank you i agree !!
The beauty of New York is that people of ALL races and ALL religions and ALL backgrounds are New Yorkers, and each is every bit as much a New Yorker as the next.
I'd be the first to admit that Tuesday's tragedy has awakenned some prejudices in me, but I refuse to listen to them. I'll be damned if I follow that same path of hatred.
New York is better than that. We have it in us to get along as we always have. Behind our city's rude exterior lies a unique and genuine tolerance and respect for our tremendous diversity. That is the very reason why those who hate invariably hate New York, but more importantly it is our strength.
Remember all, our quarrel is not with the Islamic faith but with terrorists. That is an absolutely essential distinction when it comes to winning the war and surviving the turmoil at home. The wonderful thing is that we in New York have it in us to survive in just that way.
Hang in there. I'm afraid too, but New York has always been a special place. It still is, and it always will be.
Andrew Kirschner
The majority of the incidents of prejudice have occurred outside of NYCity - to our credit. One crazy incident in my town where an allegedly drunk 80 yearold chased a muslim woman with his car. If this city gets even a mild black eye it's fo rthe incidents of looting and for the relief donation scams that abound. BTW: What ever happened to "looters will be shot"?
One of the best way to give the perpetrators the finger, so to speak, is to show as much support for our civilization as possible. I implore everyone in this special time of need to fly the American flag.
Also, if you wish, you can add an Americal Flag to the bottom of your post as a show of support with the following text:
I realize that this is off-topic, and Mr. Pirmann, please forgive me if I am violating any rules.
I don't mintend to endorse any site, and you may substitute the link within quotation marks for a link of your own. The above is only intended to be an example.
MATT-2AV
God Bless America
Hmmmm....
It worked okay in preview, and then ignored the code for text brackets when posted. anyways, you type a "<", and then the following text: IMG SRC="http://w3f.com/gifs/flag/animated/a-usa.gif">. Feel free to substitute a link to your flag of choice.
I Hope this is over soon.
The last few days,
I have not been able to buy any American Flags. Sold out.
But I do have red and blue markers that I've been using for the whiteboards in the booths.
I am not drawing flags on the board or writing slogans or "God Bless America", But I have been putting announcements about service changes on them. Writing in blue and using the red to outline key parts.
Suprvision may not like what I am doing. But as long as I only put announcements on it I don't think they'll do much about it.
Yeah baby!
Does anyone know if there were trains trapped in the tubes with passengers, or if there were passengers actually in the WTC station when the towers collapsed?
I read a Star Ledger article yesterday that said the tubes were filled with water up to 10 feet high, and there were diesel fumes that was making it impossible to check for survivors. Workers were trying to work their way from Exchange Place to respond to emergency "signals" coming from the tunnels, but had to turn back because of the fumes and water.
I didn't see anything more today in the paper or on the news.
Hopefully not
IIRC, they got the last train out of the tubes before the collapse of Toewr #2. It got to the stretch between Grove St. and Journal Sq. just in time for its passengers to see the destruction.
Wonder if any laid-up trains were down there.
wayne
I hope not, that would have meant that 1-2k people were denied an escape vector.
Thanks for the response.
Does anyone recall very well the car assignment on December 11,1988 on the "A" division & "B" division?
Oh yes I just so happen to have all the assignments for that date memorized ;)
Just curious, how would anyone have records for this stuff, and what is the purpose?
I guess he wants toknow what was runnoing when Archer Avenue opened. To my best recollection, the IRT was pretty much as it was just before the introduction of the R-142s...
The B-Division still had R30s and maybe even R27s.. I remember seeing either a 27 or 30 (didnt know the difference back then) turning from 121st/Jamaica Ave towards the new line. The old El was still standing, albeit abandoned and wrecked, as far East as Sutphin Boulevard.
I also remember that either 44s or 46s were still running on the "N" back then.
The abandoned Jamaica el structure was still pretty much intact when I drove under it on October 22, 1988.
Not that anyone really wants to do much in terms of entertainment after the attack on our nation, but I thought I'd give you all the web addresses for some very interesting train excursions coming up in the Poconos.
http://www.stourbridge.com
http://www.railtours-inc.com
These rides are alot of fun. Hope one or two of you have the chance to experience this.
Hello everybody
I hope everyone is alright, healthy and well. I am alright and I have some time to respond. I have already contacted Joe and Playland on the board of my well being.
Due to the circuimstances of the Level 4 Rapid mobilization on tuesday, I, as an APO (Auxillary Police Officer) have been on duty since 1130 hrs on the 11th. As my time frees up I will provide more information on the operations and recovery from this incident.
Part of my duties have been locating volunteer-setup tents with food along the West Side. While it is unnecessary to come down on site, and is highly discouraged, we do however welcome some volunteers who want to prepare food from the donated ingredients as well as giving out food from these stands to the arriving and departing Rescue Workers/Firefighters/Policemen and Policewomen/Servicemen.
God bless America and god bless us all
Thank you NYPD FDNY EMS PDs and FDs from elsewhere and all those who even slightly contributed, they are all heroes to us.
dude, you totally missed out on the booze.
if one of the nuts that was just here reads this: I still have no idea where to put all this shit. I need a bigger fridge! and what's with this bad beer? c'mon mommas!
If this is The Joe of the JoeKorner, I want to thank you for turning me on to BAHN. I've been Model Rail Roading for years in HO Guage, but never could figure out how to fit even just Manhatten's system, in a 24' x 48' space. BAHN solved my problem, and added the ability to run enough scheduled trains to truly simulate a typical week. It will also give me the ability to model the whole system rather than just Manhatten.
HAHAHAHA yea sure, thats the joe i know, NOT, hahaha model railroading, yea i could see joe doing that. I am finally back
I still love my job and the subways, but I am seriously thinking about looking for another job.
Unless you were in Mr. peabody's Way Back Machine you know about the WTC and the total suspension of all traffic- rail, bus,private car, ferry, plane, helicopter, bicycle, motorcycle, skateboard, foot, etc. into NYC from outside the city limits.
On Tuesday, even my phones were out- landline the regular phone line) and cell phone. I could e-mail a trnasit employee on this board to request they contact stations to ask for an emergency AVA.(I think Tuesday would be an "emergency"). The employee e-mailed me that they denied the AVA. I got through myself at 1013pm and again it was denied.
Last night (Friday Night overnigh/Saturday am) stations informed me I was AWOL and charges were file against me. Yeah- "Courtmartial"(they call the kangaroo court a "Hearing").While I do nto yet know the proposed penalty, AWOL is a "dismissable" offense.(one that can cause the employee to lose their job.) Now the next issue is- will I be "suspended, charges pending" and have no job until the "hearing".
I realize they need to have employees report but a region wide state of emergency and not show even a nanometer of a nanometer of concern and compassion for their employees.
Even though I like the job and Transit,this does sicken me! If I had tio do it over again, I would not work for Transit. Unfortunately, I do but I am thinking of looking for another job.
To those "wannabes" are you sure you want this? Be very sure.Then think again- Are You Very sure that you are very sure that youa re very sure, etc.
I agree, this is kind of sickening, but you have to look at it from the government-needs-your-help point of view. If they call in a civil servant because they are severly needed for the good of the city (as some were in this case: bus operators had a tough job with the manhattan subways paralyzed), it supercedes a worker not wanting to come in.
On the other hand, some people simply could not make it, and should not be penalized for physically not being able to make it.
Hopefully they will hear your case and not be blind and heartless. Good luck.
Well that is just not fair. If you can't be reached then they should take no action against you. This is not the time for the MTA to act like a bunch of grinches.
I was faced with a similar problem since all Long Island roads were closed off at the City Line. Fortunately my badge & safety vest got me through the blocks & over the bridge at 4 AM. I was prepared to take the ferry to Ct. and come around from the north if necessary.
This (carrying people AWOL) has been done during several emergencies in the past. It is a poor morale builder for sure. (But these circumstances were unpresidented) I doubt that the case will go anywhere. The affirmative defense is that public transportation was disrupted. In addition, the media was warning all but emergency personnel to stay out of the city. In the past, cases have not proceeded. In my location, no one was penalized. If your case does proceed, however, you can have the TWU contact me.
The fact of this action is a very black mark on the TA. When there are storms RR mgmt asserts "force majeure" as a reason for suspending service. TA inability to recognize reality is despicable. If they want you to live within the five boro's so you are physically avaulable, then they must make this a condition of employment. If they are unwilling to state that, then a back door version is a fraud.
Point Two. So where is TWU on this. They should be right there as a class action. Isn't this the point of 'collective' bargaining and representation?
You can live in the five boros all you want - doesn't mean you can alwys get into work. Staten Island was shut down from about 9:00am Tuesday until early am Wednesday, then again for some 5 hours on Thursday. The only thing that saved me was I'm off on Tuesday and Wednesday and left early enough on Thursday to beat the lockdown.
As the 'unnamed' employee in Subway-buff's post, I've already said to contact me if more help is needed.
I'm sorry but I must ask what "AVA" means. While I can guess, I am certain that whatever action action have been initiated was generated at a low level by some paper-orientated sprog who will be guaranteed future assignments in ticket booths at 3:00am for the long-term future but only if he is lucky.
AVA is a personal day. I believe that it stands for Accumulated Vacation Allowance.
From our contract--Additional Vacation Allowance. AN AVA is a previous holday you chose to take regular pay vs 2 1/2 pay( holiday plus time and a half). When there is a holday we have two choices- make it a normal day and you can take a day off with pay later or take the holiday worked pay plus time and a half. Most save the holidays. Wwe can have a maximum of 6 days in our "bank". We have to ask advance permission except for an emergency. An emergency AVA can be requested for emergencies. I think Tuesday was an emergency.
I do not believe that it was an emergency this past Tuesday/Wednesday. I had both days off and did not get a call on Tuesday. To cover myself, I called the Crew Office on Wednesday to see if there was a mandate to come in and they said no.
Maybe not for Transit but NYC and my home town (Edison, NJ) were under declared State of Emergency by the mayor's offices.
In class, they said an emergency could be personal- ie pipe in tyour house breaks and floods basement(but plumber bill needed as proof.) I think all public transit into NYC, all roads,ferries, tunnels, bridges from SI and NJ closed-even the Tappan Zee was closed. To me that was an emergency- being stranded at home. Sure PATh was running from Newark, but there was no way for me to get to Newark-- about 30 miles to Newark. Let's see-if I walked 5mph it would be only 6 hours to Newark- get real, I cant get in!
At least you could have walked to Newark if you really wanted to. I was trapped on Staten Island -no way off.
>>>>>>> I was trapped on Staten Island -no way off.
Whoa. That's a sobering thought.
The Bayonne Bridge walkway was closed?
(Yeah, I know, why would you want to go to Bayonne? But at least it's something.)
Incidentally, I live in Manhattan. On the day of the attack, there was no access into Manhattan until the subways started running limited service late in the day. A friend from Riverdale dropped by and asked me for a ride home (the subways hadn't started running yet and the Liberty Lines express buses weren't running), but I had to refuse because then I'd be trapped away from home. (Fortunately, the A started running shortly thereafter, so she walked to CPW, grabbed an A to 207, and I guess walked from there.)
The standard news item was "all Staten Island bridges are closed". I suppose I could've walked to Bayonne, but then what? No mention was ever made of the HBLR and PATH was only running outbound.
I know. Just picking nits.
AFAIK, for the first day or so, all bridges and tunnels were closed Manhattan-bound, even to pedestrians. I could have left the borough but I wouldn't have been able to return home, even on foot.
As of Friday, after I left work, I'm told that the Office of the President, Larry Reuter issued the following policy regarding the employees of the NYCT who could not report for duty due to the incidents of 9/11/01. Simply put as I understand it;
All employees who could not get to work, who had not had time off approved prior to the incident, but who did call in will be carried "PB". PB is "Personal Business", a day without pay but one for which there is no penalty other than the loss of pay. Fro any employee who did report for duty and simply did not call, they will be carried A.W.O.L.
This is the policy that all of my supervisors have been instructed to follow. I assume that the issue of inoperative phone systems will be dealt with on a case by case basis.
THAT SUCKS. Personal business NOT. So the phone system crashes and the various transit modes are blocked and that's "personal" This is so churlish.
That is the whole point. That is when they really need you the most. Your attendence record is the key to your career in transit. You take too long at lunch and miss an interval by a minute you can be taken out of service. I am sure SA's can bang each other in for being late but probably don't unless it is a chronic thing or the person is an ass.
Now if they are that tough on lateness imagine AWOL. When you book sick they even call you to make sure you are where you say you are.
At least in RTO you can bank favors, I usually show up early and if they need something minor I do it without grumbling, and I have jumped ahead for other people that were late, so when I copied the wrong supplement they covered in return. For station agents it is harder.
One guy hit 2 homeballs in a month, they were about to send him to his former title, they see his record of 0 days off in three years he gets reinstruction.
"One guy hit 2 homeballs in a month, they were about to send him to his former title, they see his record of 0 days off in three years he gets reinstruction."
Of course you know that simply is not true. Unless there was another one in the last few weeks, the last person that accomplished that particular feat has met the expected fate.
David, I need to ask this of you. Are you a NYCT employee? I ask because the Subtalkers who I know as NYCT employees, the people this directly affects, seem far less upset by the policy than you do.
Let's put his into perspective. What are essential City services? Police, Fire Sanitation and Transit. Especially in a time of emergency or crisis, it seems to me that a functioning transit system would be critical to get the other 3 to their jobs. When we were hired, we were told, this is the job. You may have to work any shift! You may have to take any regular days off! You may have to work holidays! AND you may be required to come to work in an emergency.
Has this caused inconvenience in my life? Of course it has - just like every other transit worker. Did the events of last week create problems for me? They certainly did. While certain people rely solely on public transit (like Subway Buff) many others just did not bother to show up for work or even call. When you are dealing with 35-40 thousand employees, it's quite difficult to come up with a policy that fits all cases. Some times it works to your advantage and sometimes it doesn't. Sometimes you just need to bite the bullet.
Train Dude. I am a self emploted electrician n Oakland Ca(I thought my references to San Francisco would have been a geographic clue). I AM NOT defending those who could but did not show up. And I am personally used to working odd hours--you rewire a retail store when they are closed right? that can be graveyard on the weekend. So yes I get it about odd hours, and for that matter when I lived in NY in the late sixties I worked retail bookstores--often swing shift with maybe Tuesdays off.
Now all that said, I return to what I think is both an equity issue and bad 'employee relations'. I like unto your colleague and our fellow sub talker, am transit dependent.(poor vision no drivers license). The point though is the 'reality' during an emergency. If I understand correctly, 'subway-buff' was not able to find means to cross the Hudson River in order to report for duty. SHE did not shut down service, she was a potential user confronted by canceled service. (correct me if I am in error here. As it happens, I was in DC that AM planning to come up to NY on family business and then fly out of JFK Tues eve) It is unclear how Transit expected her to get to work. Now as to responsaibility to appear an annecdote--years ago I was running late as I go to Third Ave @ St. Marks and missed a bus wgich would have gotten me to work on time. Seeing no bus I took a cab. The store owner confronted me as he met me opening the store with a "I don't pay you enough to afford cab rides to work. What gives? " My reply was you pay me to open the store on time I am on time. I menioned both the Chicago (police must live in town rule in the late fifties) and the potential problem in San Francisco if the next huge quake takes out say two bridges because when there is no physical transport available we will be in deep ____. In my first post in this thread I mentioned the term force majeure, and layer, actsof God, acts of war. These are the standard "escape" or "weasel terms" in insurance and contract language--read your next airline ticket. My point was and is, I or you may wish dearly to show up, but if there is no way to get there calling me a slacker is an insult. I hope I have clarified this sufficiently, and if you wish to contact me privately, I am vartanoff@nucsubway.org your comments are welcome.
Chances are when "subway-buff" and other TA people have their hearings, they will be cleared of being AWOL. They just have to prove they were unable to get to work.
I would hope so, but my point from the get-go was that ASSUMING guilt until proved innocent is poor human behaviour. AND sh--- management/labor policy.
AWOL is a prima-fascia(sp?) charge,, must like speeding or running a red light. You were do in. You didn't show up. You are AWOL. As I said in a previous post, I doubt that Subway-Buff will be carried AWOL because she went above & beyond to contact the NYCT. I think the 'PB' pay status is poor labor relations but 'New Directions' has done nothing to promote any generosity on the side of management.
>>> I think the 'PB' pay status is poor labor relations <<<
I thought I understood from a previous post that PB did not carry a negative connotation, but just meant the employee was not paid for the day missed. Are you suggesting the TA should pay employees who can not come to work through no fault of their own or the TA's? That could get to be pretty expensive and increase the number of times it became "impossible" to get to work. I could see allowing the employee to take the missed day as a vacation day though (assuming vacation time is available) to prevent a loss of pay.
Tom
PBs don't have a negative connotation for the employee but they have a negative impact on the employee's work location's employee availability stats as does any 'no-pay status' day.
I'm suggesting that IF the employee could not absolutely get to work and IF the he or she called and IF the employee had any vacation or AVA days in the bank, it made more sense to pay them. I would add on proviso to that. If the employee had a poor availability record then let the chips fall where they may. Keep in mind that responsibility centers (work locations) are rated on their employee availability. AWOL & PB hurt the RCs availability rating while vacations and AVA days do not.
>>I think the 'PB' pay status is poor labor relations
but 'New Directions' has done nothing to promote any
generosity on the side of management.
<<
okay on point one. as to union inspired generosity, the best way for management to weaken a union IS a humane and generous attitude. And BTW my hat is off to ALL who have given their best in this disaster.
Transit wants to make sure that people who said they were not able to get to work were not just trying to get a day off. There were alot of employees who worked OT that day because nobody was there to get them out. I'm not talking about lower Manhattan, I'm talking system-wide.
So what happens in a case like Subway-buff's - she couldn't call, and asked me to call?
It sucks, haven't you had trouble calling the crew office or the sick desk?
The weird thing is the day of the attack I got thru immediately, usually it's a half hour ordeal.
The ONLY time I've not been able to reach the crew office was the night I called from the local ER to update my location while out of the house.
I've already communicated with Subway Buff privately about the matter. I'm quite sure that she understands her options and probably the best way to handle the situation. I also told her that since she did contact me too, I would intercede on her behalf if necessary.
OK, there are personal emergencies where AVA's are OK (your kid is sick, your toilet blew up, your pet has to be put to sleep) and there are transit emergencies where you can't book off like there is 15 ft of snow. Your non-NYC transit commute is not working does not do it for them, same thing if your car died or a trailer in the Lincoln Tunnel jacknifed in front of you.
The guys in the Poconos and Dutchess County keep a clean sick record just to book off during times like that or they pick jobs where no one would bang them in for showing up 2 hours late (yes there are still jobs where you come in a 1am and leave at 3am).
You may not realize that only a certain number of AVA's are granted for each day, after that number is reached they just can say no.
They would have let you into the city, Transit is still 'essential services'.
Whether you agree with it or not, each and every employee of the NYCT is hired with the understanding that 'Transit' is an essential service and as such, in the time of any civil emergency, be it a flood, a snow storm or a terrorist attack, 'we' are supposed to be there. In 1995, we were hit with a massive snow storm that crippled the city and surrounding areas. Similarly, people who did not report were penalized. Subsequently, all hourly employees and supervisors, those represented by unions, were eventually paid for the day. Only operating managers were penalized.
Again, I go back to my first statement, whether you agree with it or not, these were the terms every employee agrees to prior to being hired. Not quite equivalent but similar to those 'new hires' who say they undestand that transit is a 24/7 operation and they may have to work any hours or have any days off. The first time they get midnights with Tuesday/Wednesdays off and they have a 'hardship. Civil Service does require a certain amount of both.
I agree transit is an essential service which is why I object to strikes by transit workers as beng on a par with fire, police etc.
As an interesting perspective, consider that many San Francisco firefighters live in Marin. If a mega earthquake takes out the Golden Gate Bridge, they will be physically unable to get to SF absent a flotilla of small boats. This is why I made the comment in an earlier post about requiring essential personnel to live within the service area. That requirement(enforced on police in Chicago in the 50's) has generally been vacated countrywide on both economic and civil rights bases. (right to live where one chooses/can afford).
My point is that the perception of sanctioning 'subwaybuff' for failure to appear when she was prevented from ding so by what are generally described in insurance 'weasel clauses' as 'acts of God, acts of war, national emergencies, etc' which certainly describes 11 Sept is on the face of it cruel. If the TA demands phone in of unavailability it must equally guarantee the phones will work.
I did call in- frst around 10am-ish via Alex L and again at 1013pn myself.
Don't worry about the AWOL. You were unable to get to work due to no subway/train service and the city's borders were closed. You were marked AWOL because the TA had to have a reason to pay the affected S/A overtime, but I GUARANTEE that you won't get any "time" out of it. By the way, do you honestly believe that you were the only person marked AWOL on Wednesday morning?
I already know of others. I have faxed TWU to request a mass grievance for "All Stations employees" who were stranded Tuesday and unable to get to work.
Sorry I don't have the usual invite. It isn't saved on this computer and my earlier one was deleted when SubTalk went down this afternoon. But anyway, SubTalk Live will begin in 10 minutes since it is Saturday and its coming up on 7:30 ET. Usual policies in effect.
See you there!
Click here to enter the chat room.
As one of the hardest weeks in my life, as well as most others nears an end, I wonder when things in Manhattan (except the WTC area) will return to near normal. I went to Roosevelt Field today and had a dull time. Even though I'm apprehensive about returning, I'm starting to miss railfanning. And I'm starting to miss Chinatown.
The BMT subway is still bypassing Canal street. As long as that is happening I'm assuming Chinatown is more or less empty. Though 6 trains are running to Brooklyn Bridge.
I'll be looking over my shoulder, and up in the sky alot more now on. I'm gonna avoid places like the Citicorp center area and other skyscrapers, staying in more of the low rise areas of Union Square, Chinatown and the upper East Side. Eventually my fear of tall buildings will subside, but not yet.
As far as what will replace the WTC, it is too early to tell. I do support building some office buildings there, but if it's gonna be a tall one there should only be ONE. Also a major shopping mall, larger than the one that used to exist should be built. Plus a park and monument.
So am I the only one here apprehensive about returning to Manhattan? Or do others feel the same way?
Tomorrow I visit Flushing, but no subways yet.
There's no reason to be afraid to return to Manhattan. Staying away gives the terrorists what they want - disruption of everyday life. Keeping our lives as normal as possible is by far the best thing to do.
I was in Lower Manhattan today. I have a "lightning never strikes twice in the same place" feeling about it. The've trashed NYC and knocked down its tallest building. So why bother. It's on to somewhere else for the next strike. In fact, I'd expect the next instances of terrorism to be in countries that support the U.S. is the war rather than here.
I think Larry has hit the nail squarely in the head. We cannot accept a "head in the sand" approach to life. To do so is to surrender to the terrorist's aims - to frighten all of us so we will be afraid. We must never give in to that mindset.
In a side not: on a CBS Radio News report at 7:30 tonight it was revealed that if the plane that crashed in Pennsylvian had continued towards Washington fighter would have been scrambled to shoot it out of the sky. The story went on to say that "It would better to sacrifice 100 people rather than 1000 (the estimated loss in a second plane into the Pentagon).
Sitting here in Baltimore (just 36 miles north of DC), we have the jitters here. Around the Police Headquarters are now 8 foot Jersey Walls, placed there because of the fear of car bombs.
The nutballs are here as well. A Sergeant of my acquaintence memtioned that as of today, 90 bomb threats have been received here. Why certain people have to get their jollies with calls like this could keep a team of psychiatrists busy for a decade.
New York will be a target for years to come, especially if we attack Muslim states.
With regard to shooting down a hijacked plane, yes, if over empty fields, but what if the plane were aleady over Washingon (or Baltimore, for that matter)?
I'm galad that's not a decision I will ever have to make!
"With regard to shooting down a hijacked plane, yes, if over empty fields, but what if the plane were aleady over Washingon (or Baltimore, for that matter)? "
I had given some thought to this issue. (I had thought to rebuild the WTC, and to put SAM missles on top of it.) An approach over water makes it an easy shot. But even if a airplane were flying south over Manhattan, a shoot-down would not cause the kinds of damage we saw at the WTC.
Most of the fireball would be high above the city, and would be to a degree burnt out before reaching the ground, what does reach the ground would be spread over a wider area, but with less power in it. It will start fires, but not disasters. Material falling from the sky would have a slightly lower veloicity, and a greatly reduced mass per article that impacted. A shoot-down over the city would not be pretty, but it would be nowhere near the magnitude of an intact impact on a vunerable structure such as a tall highrise.
Pray we not need to find out.
Elias
Remember that the planes came in below the tops of the towers so you would be shooting at a negative elevation. Can any of SAM's be launched with a Neg. elevation? A clear shot to the south except for the Verrazano Bridge. A very bad shot in any other direction. Would have worked for WTC 2 though.
(In a side not: on a CBS Radio News report at 7:30 tonight it was revealed that if the plane that crashed in Pennsylvian had continued towards Washington fighter would have been scrambled to shoot it out of the sky.)
They may be able to do something else, but no one will be able to do this again. At the risk of life and injury, passengers on the first three planes could have overcome hijackers armed with knives and boxcutters. The sat passively because they did not understand that fighting back was the only way to save others, if not themselves. Those of the fourth plane had heard what had happened, and fought back.
A similar attack will have to involve a cargo plane loaded with explosives, or come from abroad. I hope the authorities are preparing for that.
A medium-sized private plane filled with high explosives and taking off from a small non-commercian airport could also inflict considerable damage. That's one reason why restrictions remain on private aviation and small airports without strict security right now, because the government is trying to figure out what to do with them as far as safety measures go, especially those small airports within a 75-mile radius of major metropolitan areas.
At the risk of life and injury, passengers on the first three planes could have overcome hijackers armed with knives and boxcutters. The sat passively because they did not understand that fighting back was the only way to save others, if not themselves. Those of the fourth plane had heard what had happened, and fought back.
As I said earlier, the passengers on the first three planes almost certainly did not know what was to happen - they must have thought that these were "ordinary" hijackings, and that they'd be held for a while as demands were negotiated. I am convinced that they would have acted differently had they known what was to happen. That's of course what happened on the fourth plane.
A similar attack will have to involve a cargo plane loaded with explosives, or come from abroad. I hope the authorities are preparing for that.
A similar type of attack almost happened about five years ago. I'm in fact surprised that there's been no media mention of it whatsoever. A disgruntled, about-to-be-fired Federal Express pilot attacked the three other crew members of a DC-10 with a hammer, hoping to disable them and take control of the plane. His intent was to kamikaze crash the huge plane into the company's Memphis headquarters, which was jammed with thousands of employees. Fortunately, the three crewmen (all fairly young men, one of them a bodybuilder) were able to overcome the attacker despite their injuries. Had they not done so, there clearly could have been hundreds or quite possibly thousands of deaths.
From listening to Ted Olson on Fox this morning, whose wife died in the Pentagon, he was in contact with her twice via cellphone (calling ollect, to add a bit of morbid humor to the tragedy) and on the second call was able to tell her about the WTC plane attacks. However, he said that moments later the plane crashed into the Pentagon, so the passengers and crew had no time to react to the information and do something (Plus they were already circling Washington at the time, so any action other than crashing it into the Potomac would have still resulted in the loss of lives of people on the ground).
Railfanning is going to be a b**** from now on. Cause the IRT is effectivly cutoff except for the 5MPH restriction on the 4 and 5 bet. the Bridge and Bowling Green (I hope the Joralemon Tubes are still intact enough for the swift runs in it.) And the BMT is totally out of sync, with only the N and the Q getting through to Manhattan (No Ws; is that a good or a bad thing?) Let's not even go into the IND.
I don't know. I've always toyed with the idea of looking towards the railroads like the LIRR, MN, and NJT. Now that may be my only satisfaction.
A long G.O.
I was on a 4 Friday afternoon that zoomed under the river -- when I peeked into the cab, we were doing 51, but we may have been going slightly faster before I looked.
I had no idea the 4/5 was so fast there, but 51 is now the fastest speed I've seen reported on a subway speedometer with my own eyes (the previous record had been 46 on the 2/3 express run). I wonder how it compares to the N/W.
It was safe to return Tuesday before noon (not that it was possible to enter Manhattan at that time).
I live in Manhattan. There's nothing to be afraid of.
Chinatown can't be empty -- lots of people live there.
Now I'm hearing about these crazy reroutes. Q from Continental. J to 95th street. M to Stillwell. Looks like there may be some railfanning to do, but I will not ride anything through Broadway-Nassau unless I drug myself. That is just a little too close to "Ground Zero" for me.
What could possibly happen to you underground at Broadway-Nassau? I went through there on Wednesday (when just about all A trains but mine ran via the F) -- it was smoky and the lights were out, but it's not like a building was threatening collapse above the station or anything.
There are closer stations to the incident, anyway.
LOL! oh man you just crack me up.
it will NEVER be safe to return to NYC. hell, it's not safe to be LI either. what, you don't think terrorists can ride the LIRR?
suggestion: acquire a cabin inthe woods of maine. dig a bunker out 50 stories bnelow it. perhaps then you will be safe from the rest of the world, though you will never, ever be safe from your own fear...
BTW: even when the terrorists are dead and gone, you'll still have the likes of Seven out there to be so very afraid of.
They keep talking about Reagan International being closed indefinitely. The only reason it has been kept open is it's proximity for the Capital Crowd. Sounds like they better start looking at light rail.
Another thought is when and if they decide it is to risky for JFK, LaGuardia, and Newark should be shut down as they are in too close a proximity to whats left in NY. Japan built Narita way out in the booneys. I wonder if they forsaw this situation?
They can divert the "essential" (screw the NY-WAS air shuttles) flights to Dulles and BWI, and insititute MARC-Penn line service on weekends to serve it. I don't think anyone has thought of that yet.
Shuttles look like a dangerous option when compared to rail. Give us good high speed light rail and the need for shuttles goes away. If a passenger train derails it isn't likely to take out the new WTC tower(s) either.
Time for the TGV option
Actually the first step is for Amtrak to get its head out of its arse and get the Acela service in the Northeast Corridor running the way it should while there are a lot of people who are squeamish about going back into the skies. If they run a good Boston-New York-Washington service, they'll keep the new customers and can look at expanding service in the future. If the do their usual effing piss-poor job, those people will just say it's not worth it, and either go back to flying or start taking rental cars or van pool shuttles.
Let's get some of our American effort and will on this. The skies are inherently dangerous. 40,000 cruse missles a day over my head make me damned nervous.
Both Continental and Northwest have announced that they are cutting their number of flights by 20% and laying off proportionately more employees. I think that the immediate need for more airport space is over. Bye-bye O'Hare expansion.
There is a question of negligence on the part of American and United. If they are held liable for the ground damage as well as their own passengers, then both airlines are history.
I'd think that the prospects for rail are good, if the US will stay the course. The airlines are asking legislative relief for ground damage liability.
I have to feel somewhat for the airlines (not to say I think they have done a good job of security). They are caught between Fed Regs, travelar complaints and Bankers. The pendulum seems to be swinging to rail again. Also I'm not sure security lapses are the responsibility of the airlines. It is the airports who provides the security for the airlines. Do we want to be at the mercy of dozens of independant security organizations? shouldn't security be a Federal responsibility? I would rather travel knowing the security where I am going is as good as where I left.
The thing is, in the past, the Airlines have fought tooth and nail to prevent any security procedures that will annoy passengers. Many of my friends from abroad expressed utter amazement at how lax security was when they flew domestically in the US for the first time.
As far as air travel as concerned, the 1950's ended last Tuesday.
Airlines will not be permitted to continue to behave like bus companies.
National Airport (sorry, can't call it Reagan), is NOT an international airport. Only BWI (Baltimore-Washington International) and Dulles are international airports in the Washington metropolitan area. The runways at National are TOO short to accomodate the big jets on overseas trips. IIRC, the main runway is only 6300 feet whereas the runway at BWI is about 11,000.
Michael
National Airport (sorry, can't call it Reagan),
**********************************************************************
What's to be sorry about? There are plenty more out there who feel
like you about a name (and this is irrespective of how one may have felt about the president with that name) which was shoved down the
throats of Washington area residents by those who preach the virtues
of local control by local government. The last bastion of defense by those who oppose this forcibly-imposed name change (AND HERE IS THE
PUBLIC TRANSIT TIE-IN) is their refusal to change the Washington's Metro system's National Airport station to that other name. I am a Marylander, but I am forced to salute those Northern Virginia officials who took that brave stand against threatening Congressmen (who represent districts nowhere near D.C.).
system's
I do find it quite fitting that the airport they proudly named after Vegetable is the one to close.
Hah, Amtrak wanted $320 one way from Orlando to NYP. Couldn't give em my airline ticket since it was electronic too.
Greyhound wanted $104 for the same trip. I got a car for $107 split the gas and that with three others got home in 19 hours compared to Amtrak 2 trains and Greyhound (Multi departures with times as little as 21 hr and as much as 26).
The Chickens Come Home to Roost
by John Keller
I’m watching the dust from the World Trade Center buildings settle and the
Pentagon burn, while the White House is evacuated. The FAA has grounded all
flights, as it now appears that three domestic commercial airliners were
hijacked and crashed into these buildings, and possibly one other plane
crashed before finding its target. What else could have happened but a well
organized terrorist attack?
>From here the script is set. The pundits on TV have already mentioned Osama
bin Laden. Retired General Wesley Clark maneuvered into his favorite
position, full frontal camera, and announced that only Ossama bin Laden had
the resources to co-ordinate such an attack. Newt Gingrich repeated
basically the same thing. George Bush has promised that the government will
hunt the terrorists down and punish them. "Terrorism against our nation will
not stand." Huh? Sadly, terrorism already did stand, the World Trade Centers
did not, and the terrorists most directly responsible are already dead.
Back to the TV where the anchor goes on about the previous bombing of the
World Trade Centers, the bombing of the USS Cole, Oklahoma City, and the
bombing of our African Embassies. Tomorrow the calls for a national day of
mourning will begin. Somewhere in this formula of terrorism, mourning,
Tomahawk-revenge, repeat, the news-media are failing to connect the dots.
Where and why did the cycle begin? Why do people hate the United States
enough to come here and try to wreck the maximum amount of death and
destruction possible? Why, why, why?
Terrorism gets its name from the type of attack designed to generate the
maximum amount of terror. The terrorists responsible for these attacks
understood psychology well, and used it to maximum advantage as they planned
their attack. They also had a reason for choosing the targets they did. Lets
start with the targets, The World Trade Center Towers and the Pentagon.
The World Trade Centers, besides the Statue of Liberty and the Empire State
Building were two of the most widely recognized buildings in New York. They
stood at the edge of the financial district, right on Wall Street. They were
the two largest symbols of American global corporatism in New York City.
They were also crammed full of people, with approximately 50,000 civilians
working in the two every day. The terrorist messages, intentional or not,
are fivefold. First, civilians are not safe; they are fair game. Second, a
highly secure building in the middle of America’s financial capital is not
safe; therefore, no office building in any city is safe. The result: office
buildings in New York, Philadelphia, Chicago, Boston, Washington, and other
cities emptied within hours of the attacks. The UN and all government
buildings in Washington were evacuated. Third, the airlines are not safe.
The terrorists hijacked at least 4 planes, from four different airports, and
two different airlines. Fourth, the terrorists attacked the symbol of
International finance. Why? Fifth, the United States military is despised by
whoever did this.
The method of attack, and the timing tells us these terrorists had coldly
calculated how to cause the greatest amount of grief for America. The
flights were all domestic flights. The departure and arrival cities for the
flights may have been only coincidental to the terrorist goal of hijacking
the largest jets, but I don’t think this was the case. It’s easier to study
a single airport for security weaknesses, get your people hired on the
inside, and get weapons through, than it is to hijack planes from Boston,
Washington, and Newark. That means security at three separate major airports
was compromised. With end route cities in San Francisco, Los Angeles,
Newark, Washington, and Boston, people across the entire U.S. have lost
loved ones as a result of these attacks.
As of this writing, a group with the name "Palestine" in it is the only one
to claim responsibility for attacks. Why would a group of Palestinians claim
responsibility for the attack? Why would Palestinians be so happy about the
attacks? Why would the terrorists attack military / government and banking
targets? Could it be that Palestinian terrorists perceive the United States
to favor Israel in the current Intafada. New York is renowned for its large
Jewish population, and banking is considered a historically Jewish
profession. I think the picture is becoming a little bit clearer. Maybe
that’s why the World Trade Centers were targeted in New York City. Don’t get
me wrong, they made good terrorist targets for logistical reasons alone:
sheer height, the amount of media coverage in New York City, and the timing
of the attack ensured that cameras would capture the murders and mahem,
broadcasting live to an audience of millions.
Chalmers Johnson has theory. He calls it blow-back. It’s simple really. When
a big strong country uses its military or money to push around a smaller
country, the smaller country can only fight back via terrorism. And provoked
enough, the smaller country will fight back. The Pentagon folks call it
asymmetrical war, as in, the two sides are not even. Our side has nukes,
aircraft carriers, fighters, tanks, Tomahawks, and is considering missle
defense. The other side has a minimum of 4 suicidal hijackers pilots, 12
suicidal hijackers with any kind of gun, some friends in airport security,
maintenance, catering, or baggage, an agreed upon date, time, and target
list, and enough money to buy a few dozen plane tickets.
When Nikolay Soltys or Joseph Ferguson goes on a murder spree in California,
we shake our heads and dismiss it as the doings of a lunatic. When at least
a dozen people carry out coordinated suicide terrorist attacks on specific
targets in the United States, something besides, or perhaps in addition to,
insanity is at work. What could stir and feed such a profound hatred?
Dismiss the "jealous of America" idea. Jealousy is the petty hatred of
small-minded gossips and pickpockets.
I think that seeing members of your family killed by armaments supplied by
the United States, bought with money supplied by the United States, and used
with the support of the United States just might do it. If the cycle went on
long enough, perhaps for years, hatred could set it. So the question is, who
would do this? Here’s a partial list of countries the United States has
recently (in the last 10 years) bombed, invaded, supported overthrow of the
government, or supplied arms to one side in a war: Palestine, Iraq,
Macedonia, Yugoslavia, Afghanistan, and Sudan. China is an honorary member
of the list, because of its embassy bombing, which was probably intentional.
Well, we have the usual suspects, and we can bet that a terrorist from any
of those countries will see this attack on the U.S. as retaliation for our
bombing of their home soil.
It’s ironic that the initial response is to look to the military for
protection after the damage is done, when military involvement around the
world was probably the cause. It’s ironic to hear calls to hunt down and
punish those responsible, when they already paid with their lives. The evil
masterminds remain, and given the success of this attack, they will have
legions of new fanatics, ready to die. Even if we eliminate those at the top
of the organization, more will take their place. Why?
Will we learn anything in the aftermath of this attack? The lessons seem
clear enough: follow an isolationist foreign policy. Stop selling weapons
and supplying monetary aid to foreign countries, period. Stop meddling in
the internal politics of foreign countries, period. How much longer will we
blindly support Israel, when it may have cost us thousands of lives instead
of billions of dollars? How many more dead Americans do we need before we
realize that our military is seen as an occupation force when viewed with
foreign eyes, from foreign shores? Bring them home. How many more civilian
lives will it take before we realize our government cannot protect us from
harm, when it creates millions who hate us abroad? How much more destruction
will be wrecked on American soil before we realize that this is a faint
reflection of the destruction we have wrecked on Iraq and Yugoslavia?
The list of countries we have antagonized is long. The names of the dead in
those countries run into the hundreds of thousands, if not millions. If we
do not change our ways, September 11, 2001 will be remembered as the first
in a long string of the worst. I pray that it will be the turning point in
the way we deal with the world. I pray that it will be the last, worst
attack on the people of the United States. In his Gettysburg address,
Lincoln said "that we here highly resolve that these dead shall not have
died in vain". Let us resolve to understand why our countrymen were killed,
that their deaths may not be in vain.
September 12, 2001
John Keller lives in Atlanta, Georgia.
Copyright © 2001 LewRockwell.com
Where exactly did you get this article? I ask because the word about the hatred of Americans around the globe is nothing new to me. In fact, with the school newspaper I'm currently working on right now, I am bound to have to cover this end of the saga.
Ppl I know forwarded it to me..
They left off the URL.
"If we must fight terrorism we must get to the reasons."
The share price of BAe Systems, maker of 'Retaliatory Hardware,' has shot up in anticipation of a juicy (new world) order. UK could be next in firing line . . . .
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HellenicForum
This is my source...
But they've gotten it from somewhere else.
I see.
You might also wanna try this..
Good source...
http://emperors-clothes.com
Where exactly did you get this article? I ask because the word about the hatred of Americans around the globe is nothing new to me. In fact, with the school newspaper I'm currently working on right now, I am bound to have to cover this end of the saga.
Ppl I know forwarded it to me..
They left off the URL.
"If we must fight terrorism we must get to the reasons."
The share price of BAe Systems, maker of 'Retaliatory Hardware,' has shot up in anticipation of a juicy (new world) order. UK could be next in firing line . . . .
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HellenicForum
This is my source...
But they've gotten it from somewhere else.
I see.
You might also wanna try this..
Good source...
http://emperors-clothes.com
First of all, I just don't know how to react. On one side I am so depressed and so grief-stricken that I just don't know what to do, on the other, I am so proud to be from the greatest nation on the planet. The spirit of America lives on. This is where they made their mistake---they've awoken a "Sleeping Giant"---Americans may fight amongst themselves and may look like a bunch of fat disgustings slobs, BUT, you hurt one of us, you hurt all of us, we're like a pack of cats back up in a corner....I can't wait to see what happens next. But please, don't let us forget ALL that was lost, whether in New York, Washington or Somerset Pennsylvania. I live about 15 mins south of Somerset County and can't help but think that the heroes on that flight saved a lot of lives because they wouldn't take no shit. All I can say is GOD BLESS AMERICA!!!We are a better people today than we were a week ago.
Mark
"BUT, you hurt one of us, you hurt all of us"
Aparently not all of us. It seems that the WTC collapse has opened up cracks to a slimepool under the earth. It seems that some of the anti-american slime now think because the towers are gone, it's safe to squirm to the surface. Some of them have even crept in here too.
On Sept. 11th, both World Trade Towers were leveled by some "religious fanatics" for Allah.
Seems like the "sleeping giant" was rudely awoken !
Bill "Newkirk"
Was on the A today. Across Jamaica Bay, downtown looks like a totally different city, perhaps Baltimore. Running along the Fulton el structure on Liberty Av, you can see the Empire State Building representing midtown, but downtown completely disappears behind Forest Park on the East-West ridge.
The first trip uptown, I was instructed to skip Bway-Nassau and Chambers. Bway-Nassau was dark, and looked like part of the tunnel. On the way back, we were at the last minute instructed to stop there. The Chambers-WTC platforms were lit. WTC was a bit dusty, but of course, I could not see down to the end. On my last trip out, an E train of R-32's (empty, of course) was slowly pulling in on A1 track! I guess it was one of the tests mentioned.
After finishing at Far Rock, I headed back to Bway-Nassau to circle the perimeter of the closed off area, covering Williams St.(down to Pine) and a very circuitous route to Chambers St. and West St. The first thing you see exiting at Nassau & Fulton looking across is the bombed out shell of 5 WTC (where I used to stop at Borders and Krispy Kreme before cutting through the building to the bridge to 7 WTC on my way to the NYDiv. ERA meetings). Parts of the scene are also visible from Liberty@Wiliams, and Church, W BWay, Greenwich and West St. But the police may move you along, especially when there is another fear of 1 Liberty or the Millennium Hotel collapsing
I guess it makes sense to test the availability of the WTC station, but I don't think there is any reason to put it into use as long as there is nothing standing above it.
They may not use the station, but if the trains can get in there they can discharge passengers at Canal and reverse the E at its regular switch location, instead of having to detour to Second Ave or sending it out to Euclid, which would allow C service to resume.
Makes sense.
May make for slow travel through the area till the building stability issues have been fully addressed.
That makes sence.Or they could build a false wall at the WTC fare control and use the northern passage.Or what you said.Anyway something's being closed up.
That makes sence.Or they could build a false wall at the WTC fare control and use the northern passage.Or what you said.Anyway something's being closed up.And I'm suprised the station wasn't destroyed or severly daqmaged
Something you have to look at is the general layout of the area. The WTC station on the E actually lies at or north of Vessey St. under Church. Just south of there the NR ducks west from Broadway to Church and runs south from there to Cortland St. etc. along the east edge of the WTC complex. The WTC station, despite its name, was thus somewhat insulated from the worst of the towers collapsing. One thing I am not clear on is how the AC subway reaches Broarway-Nassau Station from Chambers, since it must pass under some private land and/or the NR subway to reach Fulton. The most exposed station was definitely Cortland/Greenwich on the IRT, since it is near the surface and within the WTC property. The depth of the PATH station may have saved it from collapse, but the report of water in the tubes and destruction of the surface facilities will make for a tedious recovery. Again I am not sure of the exact location of the PATH station but NYCT maps indicate it is east of where the towers stood and the IRT, though still under the WTC complex.
Correct me if I am wrong.
Gerry
The south end of the WTC station and the loop approaches to the station are pretty much directly beneath what was 2WTC.
As for the IND - if you've ever stood at the south end of Chambers-H&M station you can see that the tracks descend and go beneath the "E" tracks adjacent to it. It's a pretty broad curve; I think it begins its turn east somewhere around Barclay Street. The Chambers-WTC ("E") station ends at or just before Vesey Street and is generally level with the Mall level of WTC.
wayne
That pretty much confirms what I thought. I wonder if the construction of that curve required a lot of demoilition back in the 20s/30s. (Especially since the 6th Av. El ran on Church too)
(Especially since the 6th Av. El ran on Church too)
The 6th Ave El turned off Church St at Murray St and continued north on West Broadway. It turned off West Broadway at W 3rd St to get onto 6th Ave. 6th Ave itself did not extend south of W 3rd St until the 8th Ave Subway was built.
I think the bulk of the A/C tunnel's curve can be handled beneath the rear grounds of the church at Vescey Street,, since the track set-up at Chambers has the express tracks on the west side of Church Street, giving it a little more room to begin its turn east onto Fulton.
You've just answered one of my biggest questions about IND design.
(To wit: Why do the express tracks move west of the local tracks at Chambers if the local tracks are about to terminate and the express tracks are about to swing east?)
That makes sence.Or they could build a false wall at the WTC fare control and use the northern passage.Or what you said.Anyway something's being closed up.And I'm suprised the station wasn't destroyed or severly damaged
Not really so: Chambers-WTC station (the "E") is north of WTC; pretty much at about Park Place/Barclay Street; the Chambers-H&M station ("A" and "C") is even further north. Once things start getting back to normal these stations could still be useful for people living and still working in the immediate area AND for its transfer to the #2 and #3 lines.
wayne
With direct level access to the WTC mall, you'd think the force of the collapsing building would've destroyed the E WTC station.
Maybe the fare-control area could have been damaged. The "E" platform is a short way (maybe 50 yards) north. The corridor leading to the Chambers-WTC station is beneath #5 WTC I am not sure if this building is still standing; some reports say it is, others say it isn't. In any case, the intersection of Vesey and Church Street seems to have been cleared of debris, the rescuers seem to have taken over there. Note that the Federal Building on the NW corner of Vesey and Church withstood the blow and despite numerous broken windows, is still standing.
wayne
Rescue workers and/or police can use it. Actually the E WTC station is not under the WTC. It is a block north.
>>> I don't think there is any reason to put it into use as long as there is nothing standing above it. <<<
The last I heard they have quite a few people working there. They need to go home to rest and return. Not all of them arrive by magic carpet. :-)
Tom
Wow I can't believe the E WTC station is intact. Amazing. I wonder if parts of the Mall are intact too.
Chambers-WTC underground has such a zig-zaggy route to the main center of the mall the outward force of the collapse was probably lessened by the time it reached the entrance and was traveling perpendicular to the doors. On the other hand, Cortlandt downtown on the BMT was a straight shot for that stuff to come shooting forward from Towers 1 and 2, and of course PATH and the IRT 1/9 were just off-center from Ground Zero for Tower 2.
Wow I can't believe the E WTC station is intact. Amazing. I wonder if parts of the Mall are intact too.
I suppose some parts of the Mall immediately adjacent to the E train station entrance might be intact.
Some SubTalker posted here about the lower Manhattan Skyline view from Smith-9th Sts. (F)(G).
I was there today, and it looked very very strange. We've all been there over the years from photographing the R1-9s to the R-46s. The twin towers obviously there, you couldn't have missed them.
Now when you go there, all that remains is the empty void and the wispy white smoke still emenating from one of the collapsed buildings. The smoke pinpoints where some 5000 souls ascended into heaven. Very very sad indeed.
Bill "Newkirk"
Sad...
But, I am an Optimist..we will rebuild.
You are one of an elite group with such views. I, on the other hand, tend to disagree.
There has been a lot of "pumped up" talk here about rebuilding the WTC and how to do so. First the clearing away of what is left of the buildings. This may take weeks or months.
And now the obvious, would New York want replacement type towers to rise on the site of a graveyard of 100,000 or 50,000 souls ? This mat run into some objections.
Bill "Newkirk"
Bill, IMHO the towers must be rebuilt to show that terrorism did not succeed. The new towers should be bigger and better. A large memorial plaque between them with the names of the victims would be highly appropriate, too.
Q
Okay, rebuild the towers as a gesture of defiance in the face of terrorism. Won't that make them fly two more planes into them and repeat this fiasco ?
Bill "Newkirk"
By that time they won't exist...
Unless new Groups arise.
Would you be willing to have your place of employment in one of those bigger and better towers?
I would.
There are other skyscrapers, there WILL be other skyscrapers. If the World Trade Center isn't there to attack, then they'll just attack another.
Are we supposed to have a functioning civilization that consists entirely of useless "memorial parks?"
Yeah, I think that was me. It was the first time I saw lower manhattan on Tuesday, since I had to get to Bay Ridge and the only thing running into Bklyn was the F.
The whole packed train was gazing at it. It used to be the most magnificant place to look at the towers, now it's just sad.
You guys got me thinking, and I remember a few summers ago coming down to NY from Boston and going on a railfan "photoshoot." Sure enough, one of my stops was Smith-9th St for "the view."
I hope I am not bothering anyone by posting this photo.
When I was there in June, I decided to come back another day to photo trains coming around the curve. I guess my inability to forsee the future will deprive me of those shots with the WTC in the background.
Here in nyc we have bbc on anntenna channel 21-but most other channels are dead
Also this terrorist attack is a great oppertuniity to merge path and subway and build new subways
As per article in todays Daily News.
IRT Cortlandt St (#1/#9) station.....Destroyed, structural damage to tunnel.
IRT Rector St. (#1/#9) station.....Buried in debris.
BMT Cortlandt St. (N)(R) station.....Buried in debris, no apparent structural damage but fear of building collapse above.
BMT Rector St. (N)(R) station.....Buried in debris
IND World Trade Center (E) station.....No serious damage, being used by rescue crews.
IRT Park Place (#2-#3) station..... Under water.
PATH officials tried to reach the WTC station by boat, but were turned back by high water.
Hope this helps.
Bill "Newkirk"
Well it gives us a way of knowing what is going on. And gives us transit workers a chance to know before time what to say to people when we go back to work.
All BMT service is going across the Manhattan Bridge. Maybe some trains will be turned at City Hall or Canal-R line. 1 service will termiate at Chambers St. 2 will terminate at 14 St. 3 will remain shuttle from 148 St to 135 St.
E service will likely continue being diverted south of W4 St to Euclid Ave during the day and 2nd Ave at night.
These changes will be subject to conditions in the lower Manhattan area. If buldings are likely to topple over service will probably change at a moment's notice.
That's what I'll be saying when I go back to work.
If things weren't messed up enough with the Manhattan Bridge flip,now this throws another monkey wrench into the works. This could mean some bad times for the subways.
Bill "Newkirk"
Once the debris is cleared how long will it take to rebuild the Cortlandt Street station on the IRT which suffered the most damage.
#3 West End Jeff
If the area is cleared and there are no buildings or utilities to get it the way, rebuilding the tunnel could be done pretty quickly within the WTC site, since they can just scoop out the debris, install a new roadbed, tracks, roof and columns without having to put boards over the opening, as is usually the case with cut-and-cover.
If there's any damage north of Vescey or south of Liberty, those repairs may take longer. And they may not even re-open Cortlandt street for now, just get the tracks working so the 1/9 can get to Rector and South Ferry.
Of course, this would only be a temporary fix for the line itself -- they really can't do anything until they know what will be on the site in the future, and based on how crappy Cortlandt street looked for 20 years after enduring the WTC construction, they probably wouldn't want to put anything permanent in for now.
BMTJeff,
This may take months. Right now, "ground zero" seems to be in the hands of greater powers to oversee the clearing of what once was WTC #1 & #2. That's a lot of large trucks hauling away debris on a 24 hour basis. Add to this the other buildings that have collapsed and may do so. So rebuilding the stations may have to wait.
All this because of some programmed zombie like "cells" acting on orders using two jet planes loaded with passengers. God help us.
Bill "Newkirk"
Once the debris is cleared they probably would at least want to rebuild the tunnel if they wish to have 1/9 service to South Ferry once again.
#3 West End Jeff
! my #2 video starts from the IRTpark place i remember track work being done near there with lights !!!
IRT Cortlandt St (#1/#9) station took several pictures of that station & a R62 !!!
IND World Trade Center (E) station. took many shots there too !! & a video as well the entire E line ....
Was any train caught anywhere when this happened ?? .....I hope not..........
PATH officials tried to reach the WTC station by boat, but were turned back by high water.
Omg i do hope no trains were there when this whent down ...............( sigh ) .......:( (:
thank you, Bill, YES it does help
Peace,
ANDEE
I heard rumors that the WTC would be rebuilt to the way it was, then it was not. I remember all of the stations that linked into the WTC. Does anyone know if the WTC is being rebuilt into the way it was?
Hopefully it would be taller.
It is too soon to tell what is going to happen to the WTC property. There are still fires burning in the pile of rubble that once was 7WTC. There are skeletons of 4WTC and 6WTC still to be dealt with. Other buildings (2WFC, 3WFC, 90 West Street, Bankers' Trust, Verizon, Millenium Hotel, 1 Liberty Plaza, the small buildings at the SW corner of Liberty and Trinity Place, etc. etc) that still have to be checked and/or stabilized.
I do hope than when all the above is done and all the land is cleared that they will rebuild. But that won't be until 2006 at the very earliest, and probably not until 2010.
wayne
So basically, completing the recovery phase will allow the return to service (with new tracks, signals etc.) of the BMT line. The E could resume running to the WTC station t that point. What's left is repair and reconstruction of WTC PATH and the collapsed tunnel at Cortland, and pumping out a hell of a lot of water and loose debris from the other stations - and then cleaning them up (new paint job?)
Since $20 billion is now available, I'd consider putting elevators into reconstructed stations for ADA compliance. Why not take the opportunity, if we have it?
glad to be back and see all of you back. Lets start with one question of return lol. I was in Hempstead by stewart Avenue and South street by Hofstra University. Anyways at that intersection nearby was a Railroad Crossing and a MTA long Island Railroad signal facility. Anyone know what i am talkin about or do they send trains thru there?
Here's my fear: Could the NY subways be attacked with nerve gas or some other chemical weapon?
Does anyone feel it a likely action of a terrorist?
I sure as hell hope not, but as a regular commuter I can't help but think such thoughts in the wake of Tuesday's disaster.
Thank you.
Andrew
A few years back, a bunch of White Supremacists were caught in the Midwest with lots of chemical weapons of mass destruction such as Anthrax, the "Black Plague", and the like. The controversey arose quickly because those weapons had the NYC subway's name on them. That sent chills down everybody's spines.
These days, you've got to be watching your backs.
I read a book on Bio-weapons that said a trial had been done by Officialdom, using simulants, to check how vulnerable the Subway system was. Answer:VERY.
>>> I read a book on Bio-weapons that said a trial had been done by Officialdom, <<<
IIRC the U.S. Army tested biological agents in the New York subways in June, 1966 and found them quite effective. Soldiers in plain clothes dropped light bulbs filled with the apparently harmless microbe bacillus globigii on New York City subway tracks, and the trains pulled the cloud of biological agents throughout the subway system. Then men with suitcase samplers strolled among unsuspecting New York subway riders to test the amount of spread.
Tom
do i remember this did happen in japan ?? it was some a bit time ago but i do beleive this did go down ..
also nightline did a profile on this possibility with the washington d.c. metro. showed how easy it could
be done.
In the 1980's Al Hague claimed that this was a myth, an urban legend if you will. The US Army, in its "Record of Declassified Projects," has suspiciously altered the original documents and has categorically denied having the technology to disseminate microbes succesfully in the mid-60's.
Where's Mulder and Scully when we need them?
Hopefully uncovering O. bin L.'s whereabouts.
Tunnel Rat.
"A few years back, a bunch of White Supremacists were caught in the Midwest with lots of chemical weapons of mass destruction such as Anthrax, the "Black Plague", and the like."
Worse, those are biological--self-spreading.
Seth
Ask Japan about Saren gas. They are damned vulnerable. All it would take is a dozen or so thermises with lose tops.
That's what I'm afraid of.
Well, it's already been done by a Japanese cult in the Tokyo subway, and five years ago they caught those four Arabs living in Brooklyn who were plotting to blow up the Pacific Street BMT station, so the answers are yes it could happen and yes it's been tried already, but foiled by the FBI and NYPD, and of couse, someone can try again.
"Could the NY subways be attacked"
You mean like the Plane to the Train?
Elias
Anything could be a target, but we can't live our lives in fear. That is one of their goals. Remember?:We have nothing to fear but fear itself.
The subways can be a target. With all attention focused on the airlines and airports, the next terrorist plot can be anywhere.
This thing about flying loaded jet planes into important buildings causing mass death and destruction, been there done that. It worked as planned, now they'll do something else we wouldn't expect. that's why we can't lay back and enjoy the good life. A 24 hour terrorism watch has to be instituted. We can fall asleep, we snooze, we all lose.
Bill "Newkirk"
The subways can be a target. With all attention focused on the airlines and airports, the next terrorist plot can be anywhere.
This thing about flying loaded jet planes into important buildings causing mass death and destruction, been there done that. It worked as planned, now they'll do something else we wouldn't expect
Exactly my fear.
Still, we must go on living because we simply must.
I wonder what NYCT could do to prevent such an attack. Any ideas?
Andrew "MisterK" Kirschner
this did happen in japan remember ??
To The Group:
While I am not privy to the fine details, here is the service plan as described to me for Monday, September 17. Let's see how things shake out:
(IRT)
1-242 Street to New Lots Av., all stops.
2-E 241 to Flatbush, all stops.
3-148/Lenox to Times Square, express
4-Normal
5-Normal (service to 238 suspended?)
6-Normal (Pelham express suspended?)
7-Normal
S-Normal
Some stations between Canal St. and Brooklyn may be closed, depending on circumstances. I believe these will include Park Place on 1/2; Fulton & Wall Sts. on 4/5.
(BMT/IND)
A-Normal
B-Normal
C-Suspended
D-Normal
E-Parsons/Archer to Euclid Ave., all stops.
F-Normal
G-Normal
H-Normal
J-Parsons/Archer to 95 St./4 Ave., all stops.
L-Normal
M-Metropolitan Av. to Coney Island via Sea Beach.
N-Suspended
(Q)-Continental Av. to Coney Island via Brighton Local.
-57 Street to Brighton Beach via Brighton Express.
R-Suspended
S-Normal
Car assignments will be changed but I have no idea how. Let's see what you good folks come up with and post back. Remember, the 75-footers cannot be used on Eastern Division lines (J, M), and these are operated in 8-car maximum length.
There WERE two trains of R-38s on the E today.
The R-62As on 1 and 3 will be melded into one giant pool and it's probable several will be transferred "to other IRT lines" whatever that means...
Regards,
George Chiasson Jr.
(Widecab5@aol.com)
Interesting but not at all surprising. I wonder if they will create new maps showing this service, as some of the stations in lower Manhattan will be OUT OF SERVICE for months, perhaps years, to come.
wayne
Hi Wayne & others,
I understand that there might be some long term subway service changes, if you or anyone know or have new maps reflecting changes please let me know ASAP and I will try to take the time to update the map for this site.
Thanks,
Michael Adler
adler@nycsubway.org
Oh one more thing- what about the "W" - would that be Astoria to Coney Island via West End/Broadway express, but no express service in Queens?
wayne
W will continue to run local in Manhattan and Queens.
no n at all?
this i'll have to see to believe. then again... i guess that's what this week has been all about.
Must be the fatigue:-)
Let's Try This Again-----
To The Group:
While I am not privy to the fine details, here is the service plan as described to me for Monday, September 17. Let's see how things shake out:
(IRT)
1-242 Street to New Lots Av., all stops.
2-E 241 to Flatbush, all stops.
3-148/Lenox to Times Square, express
4-Normal
5-Normal (service to 238 suspended?)
6-Normal (Pelham express suspended?)
7-Normal
S-Normal
Some stations between Canal St. and Brooklyn may be closed, depending on circumstances. I believe these will include Park Place on 1/2; Fulton & Wall Sts. on 4/5.
(BMT/IND)
A-Normal
B-Normal
C-Suspended
D-Normal
E-Parsons/Archer to Euclid Ave., all stops.
F-Normal
G-Normal
H-Normal
J-Parsons/Archer to 95 St./4 Ave., all stops.
L-Normal
M-Metropolitan Av. to Coney Island via Sea Beach.
N-Suspended
(Q)-Continental Av. to Coney Island via Brighton Local.
-57 Street to Brighton Beach via Brighton Express.
R-Suspended
S-Normal
W-Astoria to Coney Island via West End
Z-Suspended
Car assignments will be changed but I have no idea how. Let's see what you good folks come up with and post back. Remember, the 75-footers cannot be used on Eastern Division lines (J, M), and these are operated in 8-car maximum length.
There WERE two trains of R-38s on the E today.
The R-62As on 1 and 3 will be melded into one giant pool and it's probable several will be transferred "to other IRT lines" whatever that means...
Regards,
George Chiasson Jr.
(Widecab5@aol.com)
Hmmm. I wonder what we'll see on Queens Blvd.
:-) Andrew
E F G and Q
Regards,
George Chiasson Jr.
(Widecab5@aol.com)
Well, I understand that. I mean what rolling stock. Will we see R40S's and/or R68's? I know you don't know. I was just musing.
:-) Andrew
Actally, after that semi-rude post (I appologize), I do wonder what route the Q will take between Queens Blvd. and Broadway. I'm assuming 63rd St, but of course it could just be 60th.
:-) Andrew
It would be via 60th St. since it is taking the place of the R.
Giving the Slant 40s from the Q train to the M, and taking the N's R-68s and using them for Q express service should fill most of the needs for that line. If extra cars are needed for the J that East New York can't provide, they can run some of the unused R-32/38 C trains down the Culver line to CI or through the Chrystie St. connection to give them temporarily to the J. Also, the E could be switched to all R-46s for a while and its R-32s and some from the suspended R train out of Jamaica could be sent down to CI or out via Chrystie to the J train.
That may mean a lot of trains will be moving around the system empty tomorrow. Hopefully, all the J train T/Os will have their punches down right before they hit the Montague tunnel bound for Mnhattan on Monday.
Some of those J line t/o's haven't been south of Broad St. for YEARS! Those old timers will be pissed on Monday! As for me, I currently do one to 9th Ave. and 2 to Bay Pkwy, so 2 to Stillwell via Sea Beach Freds' favorite line is an improvement!
With the changes or Monday, I started thinking about the story about the T/O who punched wrong at DeKalb the first day Chrystie Street was opened. Punch wrong this time, and you'd really be in a mess.
Forgot to ask: Will there be enough J and M T/Os to handle the whole thing, or are some of the T/Os from the R and N trains going to have to get a crash course on running on the Eastern Division?
Seems like dealing with the Southern Division for the J train people won't be as hard as having to try and learn the twists and turns of the Nassau Loop, the Myrtle junction and the Cypress Street curve for T/Os whose main concerns before were the Vescey Street `S' curve and the 11th Street cut.
The learned to run the QJ and RJ in 1967.
They'll learn how to run the RJ and NM this time as well.
I'm sure they'll learn, but the T/Os in 1967 had a little bit more advanced warning when the Chrystie St. connection was opening up. Any T/O from the N and R trains running Eastern Division on Monday will have had all of 36 hours notice about the routing decisions, and some may have never seen Essex St., East New York or Metropolitan Ave. before.
Many of the J train's T/Os also haven't seen the Southern Division either in a long time or at all, but other than the DeKalb junction, Broad Street to 95th requires a lot fewer twists and turns than Broad to Parsons-Jamaica Center does.
So what?
Is there anything fundamentally different from one line to the next?
If not, how is this any different from, say, forcing a sudden reroute on a bus driver? The actual streets may not be familiar, but the traffic signals, pavement markings, etc. don't mean anything different. On a rerouted bus, there may be some question of where the bus stops are; on a rerouted subway, I think it'll be pretty obvious.
(Some T/O's might forget and stop at the 10-car marker in the territory they're used to -- no big deal there. There are no 10-car markers in the Eastern Division, so that's not at issue.)
Give the T/O's crib sheets with the relevant lineups.
Well, it's just a matter of having a "feel" for the line. An experienced T/O on the N or R trains probably knows just how to hit the timers right on the 60th Street tunnel to get up to the maximum speed because he's run the line so often. The first day or two on the J/M route after leaving the Montague tunnel, the same T/O will probably be feeling his way along a little slower, until he gets comfortable with the twists and turns of the Eastern Division, of which there are many (or they'd be running 75-footers there by now).
Same thing with the C/R -- the ones on the N and R lines know which side of the train the doors open on for every stop from Astoria or Continental to CI or 95th St. For the next day or so, they'll have to be committing the new door positions to memory at Broad, Fulton, Chambers, Canal, etc. It's not going to be a major disruption, but it may slow the trains down a little compared to the regular T/Os and C/Rs on the J and M lines.
They could always change crews at Broad Street
All the t/o's on the lettered lines were qualified on all the lettered lines when they were new. Perhaps they haven't worked a certain line for many years, but they signed the papers after their training that they are qualified on all the lines. I'm sure the R people who report to 95th St. will find themselves working the J (longer line), the Stillwell N guys will work the M. The Continental R guys will work the Q (longer line). And so on.
How did they determine that the J goes to 95th St, and the M-Seabeach to C.I., and not vice-versa ?
I also just saw Larry Reuter on CNBC and he showed a map and described the changes. He stated the M was running to Stillwell, as was the Q and W. The words Brighton, Seabeach, and West End just would not come out of his mouth. This is what happens when they market lines by letter, not route names, and they have to make changes.
The M, as it operated a week ago, already came pretty close to Coney Island. Routing it on the Sea Beach instead of the West End is a relatively minor change, and passengers who don't realize it's not running on the West End will be able to transfer at New Utrecht to the W.
TA suits decided that the M goes to Stillwell N and the J goes to 95. If the J did go from Parsons to Stillwell N it would be quite a long line. The longer the line, the bigger chance of service irregularity. The way it is now set up, the running times of the J & M are fairly similar (Met to Stl, P/A to 95).
It's like post-1967 all over again. Lots of thru-routed Eastern Division trains to the south, equipment running on lines it has never been.
Rush hour capacity appears to be going down on several lines, including the west side IRT. How are the going to relay the #3 at Times Square without squeezing all #1s and #2s to the local track?
They'll need to install a switch on the local track south of Chambers to allow the #1 to relay there, and soon.
There's a fifth track between TS and 34th Street, they could use that.
Arti
I don't understand the purpose of the Brooklyn swap of the 1 & 3 ?
Otherwise, where would you turn 1?
Arti
I don't know the track arrangement at Chambers. Where will the 3 go ?
It could turn on the layup track between 42nd and 34th streets. Also if 2 switches to local it could turn at 34th Street.
Arti
They can't install a switch track south of Chambers on the 1's local tracks because they are on an incline at the south end of the station and the next stop after Chambers on the 1 is the (highly likely) severely damaged World Trade Center stop. There have to be switches north of Chambers, or how else has the 2 train been able to switch onto the local tracks during late night hours?
According to the MTA's web site, they have the 1 currently turning at 14th Street and the 2 and 3 turning at 34th. From what I'm reading, the TA is going to make the 2 local all times. Why are they doing that? They can operate the 5 to Flatbush all times and service from Brooklyn to 7th Avenue will still be available because the 1 will be extended there. Keep the 2 express in Manhattan. If they're turning 1 trains at 14th now, they can surely turn 2 and 3 trains there tomorrow and until they fix everything up.
Also the tracks for the uptown and downtown 1 split almost immediately after Cortlandt Street going north -- if you looked north on the track from the uptown platform, you'd see a wall -- meaning there is no place to put a switch in, even if the tunnels were fine.
Just saw Rueter on CNBC. He just got the 2 & 3 running to Brooklyn. They will bypass Chambers and Park Place. The 1 turns at 14th street.
So much for the 1 operating to Brooklyn then. But with the 2 and 3 running local and the 1 running express, there's going to be plenty of delays at 96th Street. I guess doing it this way minimizes confusion in Brooklyn.
Q trains will operate to Queensbridge.
R will operate via Manny Bridge then to Continental.
W will operate to Astoria.
2 will go to 34th Street.
3 will go to 34th Street.
C is suspended.
E to Euclid Ave.
J and Z to Broad St.
M no Manhattan or Brooklyn service, except for shuttle only.
Others are normal.
You are behind the times. Check the MTA web site for new service plan or scan back for some previous posts.
George, as of Friday PM there were no fleet assignment changes, at least as far as moving cars from shop to shop. The E train is now being supplimented by the unused cars from the (suspended) C line (There WERE two trains of R-38s on the E today). In fact, the resulting changes have actually provided a small surplus of cars at jamaica yard. As for the R service, today it was running but it was going over the Manhattan Bridge and the M train was suspended between Brooklyn and Manhattan.
This is MY PROPOSALS - Using existing posts.
(IRT)
1-242 Street to New Lots Av., all stops. ALL TIMES
2-E 241 to Flatbush, all stops. ALL TIMES
3-148/Lenox to Times Square, express
4-Normal
5-Normal (I say route it to Bowling Green, then to the outer Loop of South Ferry to serve South Ferry Terminal, Then shoot back up to Bowling Green. - ALL TIMES - Since SI Ferry Will be running again)
6-Normal
7-Normal
S-Normal
Some stations between Canal St. and Brooklyn may be closed, depending on circumstances. I believe these will include Park Place on 1/2; Fulton & Wall Sts. on 4/5.
(BMT/IND)
A-Normal
B-Normal
C-Suspended
D-Normal
E-Parsons/Archer to Euclid Ave., all stops.
F-Normal
G-Normal
H-Normal
J-Parsons/Archer to 95 St./4 Ave., all stops.
L-Normal
M-Metropolitan Av. to Coney Island via Sea Beach. ALL Times
N-Suspended
(Q)-Continental Av. to Coney Island via Brighton Local.
57 Street to Brighton Beach via Brighton Express.
R - 95th Street to 71/Continental via Manhattan Bridge - ALL Times
S-Normal
W - Astoria to Stillwell/Coney Island.
Z - Normal
You don't need 2 services serving 95. Continental could not handle 3 services: G, round Q, R. The Manny B would have too much congestion with 4 services: both Q's, R, W.
Happy Birthday. My wife's birthday is also Sept. 17th. I like your idea better. With the R running, you won't need the J going to 95th Street, or the Q going to Continental. Talk about two never ending trails! Cab time galore! Pity the poor souls (crews) who have to deal with that! I'm thankful the W is staying put, after almost 15 years as a conductor I'd hate to show up Monday and wind up extra board.
Why would New Lots need the service of 2 lines during the mid-night hours?
I'm surprised to hear that the 2/3 trackage in lower Manhattan is usable.
The 1 can terminate at Chambers at night (unless there are other reasons New Lots needs a service boost now).
Why will the 2 run local in Manhattan? Not that I'm complaining -- I live at a local stop.
Major effects frorm the re-routing:
Crowding on the W will be SEVERE, the only train running from Midtown (and local) to Pacific where added N riders will transfer there to the M. Some will take the Q, which will also allow transfer to the M at Dekalb. Expect Dekalb and Pacific to be wall to wall with people. With three services running to Brooklyn instead of the usual 5, trains to/from Brooklyn will be packed. With J and M for Bay Ridge and Sea Beach riders, most are coming from Midtown, others around the Chinatown area will use Canal street. The effects on Queens won't be as severe, with Q replacing R. But still expect delays and confusion come Monday. I will not elect to be part of that, not yet anyway.
Maybe by the end of the week, MAYBE. Also J and M use shorter trains, so N and R riders will have to get used to shorter trains. So even for people who don't even work in Lower Manhattan, will have their commutes seriously messed up. And I didn't even mention the IRT. With no Brooklyn access from the West Side, expect the already overcrowded Lex lines to be severe. Part of me is curious to check it out, but I'm afraid, VERY AFRAID. The affects of this disaster are just mind boggling. From the cataclismic collapse, which trapped and killed nearly 5000 people to the sadness, fear and dispair, to the confusion that Manhattan will continue to endure, this is the worst thing ever to happen to NYC. And winds will be shifting to the SW tomorrow, which means the smoke still pouring from the Volcano like hole where WTC stood, will drift over Queens and Long Island. Maybe it's time to buy a gas mask.
Having nearly 5 subway lines out of order until further notice is not gonna be a good thing. Never seen this before. Anyone want to take a guess?
Did many N/R passengers bound for Midtown stay on the N/R? I'd suspect most would have transferred to the W or Q even under normal circumstances.
Don't forget the option of transferring at Canal, which is advantageous in that Q and W stop at the same platform. With the underpasses reopened, it's an easy transfer.
From the West Side, the BMT is more accessible than the 4/5 -- that's where the crowds will go. Those headed for Brooklyn IRT territory will probably stay on the BMT to Atlantic/Pacific rather than changing at 14th since (IINM) the BMT is faster from 14th to Atlantic/Pacific.
As for shorter J & M substitues for the N & R, that is nothing that staggered hours and a Bay-Ridge-Whitehall Street ferry can't solve.
I am surprised they're not running a stub train from Brooklyn to Whitehall Street.
No transfers at Whitehall.
No Whitehall,or any BMT on Broadway South of Canal until further notice. Lots or changes, including West Side 1 2 and 3 lines
Expect Dekalb and Pacific to be wall to wall with people.
I've been there, done that in times past. Since then, I wonder if they've done any work on the tunnel connecting the Pacific platform to the IRT and Atlantic station. When there were delays or service disruptions, the crowding could become intolerable; a panic would have caused trampling of people.
They might be well advised to make these stations free, allowing exit and re-entry via the street. Either that, or set up a system of paper transfers, with clerks at all the exits/entrances.
I gather that private cars are banned in those parts of lower Manhattan that will be open. This will make for a pedestrian heaven. The experiment should be interesting to see what patterns develop.
There will be West Side IRT access access from Brooklyn. The 2 and 3 will be running there, however they will make all local stops in Manhattan. And there will still be five services to southern Brooklyn: J, M, Q, < Q > and W. Basically the N and R are out, but they will be replaced by the W and circle-Q in Manhattan and the J and M in Brooklyn. But there will be confusion and since the J and M run with shorter trains, yes there will be some additional crowds.
And the T/Os will have to be very specific in their announcements, especially at Fulton, Chambers and Canal on the J/M or you can be sure there will be some Midtown-bound riders from the usual N/R stops in Brooklyn who will be headed for Bushwick before they figure things out on Monday.
T/Os on the PA? Try C/Rs instead -- all this re-routing has me really confused. :-)
Even if they ride through all the Nassau Street stations, they could ride to Essex and take the F uptown.
That's also possible, if someone is going to Rockefeller Center, though for others it may be a last-chance transfer before they go back to Brooklyn.
Anybody want to take a guess how crowded the NYC subways will be this week. With the major disruptions, the kind NYC has never faced before, crowding will be worse than it ever has been. I fear there will be gridlock in the subways come Monday. Whatever lines go down Broadway, the Q(Q) and the W (that's it) will be cramped beyond belief. The 4,5,6 will have added riders from the 1,2,3 and will be jammed. If I do ride any trains within the following week, it will be the E,J,M, and 7, that's it.
Best way to Chinatown-by J,M or S trains. Well for those who venture out on the subways Monday, please fill me in on what to expect, whenever I do return to the battered island of Manhattan.
Seems to me pretty clear that the 4 Anti-Americans have a pretty good act going that must be orchastrated via private E-mail. One posts a message and the other 3 in the Greek chorus applaud. One has to wonder why three of them showed up here on Subtalk immediately after the WTC incident. Call it paranoia or call it coincidence but the facts are incontrovertable. Aside from the curious timing of their arrival on Subtalk, none seem even remotely interested in trains. Hmmmmmmm !!!!!!!!!!!!!
Not to shoot holes into your theory, but um, if they REALLY wanted to spread an Anti-American message, they'd most likely go to Yahoo chat or some of the very large NYC message boards where they could spread their message to a much larger audience. Besides, only a scant few posts have been about trains these past few days. And Steveboatti's been here for awhile.
I don't think it qualifies as a theory - just an observation. I know that one has been around for a while but the other 3 have not. Also, while there have been only a few posts about trains, if we check back, I don't think that there has been one post about trains (not terrorism on trains) between those 3 since they have been posting here. As I said, it just seems odd.
Not as odd as you. I have never communicated by e-mail with any of the other 3 posters. I guess if several people disagree with you, it must be a "conspiracy."
Can anyone tell me about my Sea Beach? Is that train running? I know if doesn't run under the WTC, but I haven't heard a thing. Can someone tell Sea Beach Fred if all is ok with the N?
Keep reading......you won't be happy about it, I'm sorry to say.......
Seth
Whoops! Really sorry about that, so much different information floating around, I can't keep it straight. That is, from what I've been reading, I think it's going to be suspended during the week, but according to the MTA it's using the bridge right now.
Seth
That is a hell of a way to get my train on the Manny B. I would have prayed it would have occurred for a different reason. But as long as the Sea Beach is running I can smile.
Sorry to say, but for at least a short while, you are now Sea Beach-Nassau Loop-Myrtle Ave. Fred.
On the bright side, the BMT tunnel damage may not be that bad, outside of the debris blown in from the collapse. And you're handle could be (1) South Ferry (9) who may have to change his handle to (1) New Lots (9) for the next year or more.
Did I just get my spirit deflated. Someone tells me the Sea Beach is now on the bridge, and now it is part ofthe Nassau loop. Will someone out there please give me some accurate information? What the hell is going on with my train?
Going by the MTA's website, the N will be replaced by the M on the Sea Beach line, and will run via tunnel, Nassau Loop, Williamsburg Bridge, Broadway in Brooklyn (hey, at least the Sea Beach is still on Broadway) and Myrtle Ave. to Metropolitan Ave. How long that lasts will depend on the report of the structural engineers on the BMT tunnel on Church Street.
The Sea Beach is back on Broadway and runs via bridge, but this time it's Brooklyn's Broadway and the Williamsburg Bridge. And it's making all local stops.
The N was on the bridge this weekend as part of a previously scheduled GO.
As of tomorrow, there will be no N anymore. The M will serve Sea Beach at all times.
Wait a minute. I thought you were a fan of the Sea Beach line itself (i.e., one particular line between 59th Street and Coney Island), not the letter N. The letter N won't be operating on the Sea Beach; now it'll be the letter M. But the Sea Beach will still be operating. And, for the first time in a long time, every single train on the Sea Beach line will have a railfan window.
The Sea Beach with the letter M????? What the hell gives. Oh yes, I am a Sea Beach fanatic as everyone knows to their sorrow, but I accepted N because it is my favorite letter. But M? Ok, M is the first letter for my Mets and I can make do if I have to. But since when was the Sea Beach given the M letter. I remember when the Sea Beach was #4, hence my handle. I really had a fit in 1974, when returning to New York for the first time in 20 years, heard the #4 had been given over to some half-ass line onthe IRT. I have had to livewith that. But now my favorite letter is no longer part of my favorite train. Quick, who is responsible for this? I going to get my sling shot.
" But now my favorite letter is no longer part of my favorite train. Quick, who is responsible for this? I going to get my sling shot. "
I think Bush will get them soon....and I hope he uses more than a sling shot!
I heard that the Sea Beach line is going to be dive-bombed by F-16's because word got out that Osama bin Laden had been hiding out in a full-width cab train on the NYCT.....
...just thought this site could use alittle levity...
BMTman
But why Doug does have to be the Sea Beach? Hell, some terrorist could get wind of what you said and seize a train loaded with passengers, and since he sees Sea Beach he picks that train because he knows of it. Then we destroy the line to prevent the train from going to its annointed rounds. We get the bastards but the Sea Beach is no more. Can you imagine me, or could ANYONE out there imagine me without the Sea Beach to live on? Hell, a good half of my pleasant childhood memories would be wiped out completely. Shhhhhh, don't mention this again.
I won't tell a sole....;-)
I know what you mean, but it doesn't matter Bush will blow bin Laden to hell and anyone else who is in the way and the rest of the Arab world doesn't care because bin Laden is a big PR problem. Terrorism works when a few dozen people are killed. Heck the bastards were beginning to get a little sympathy but now they better forget about any more bullshit Zionism=racism UN resolutions. I just wish Bush used India, China and Russia in his coalition instead of any Muslim states
At this time we should take any help we can get, even if it is reluctant and they are wanting payment for it.
I assume you mean Bush Sr. As it looks Bush Jr. will have the Russians, Chinese, and the majority of Muslim states in this new coalition.
According to the SubTalk archives.....
SethLJ made his first post in late July.
NYCSubwaymapbuff made his first post August 3rd
Nightrider doesn't seem to have any archived post. Meaning that he could've shown up between August 28 and September 11, or is an old poster under a new name.
Also of note, our resident Senator McCarthy (Alan Glick) doesn't seem to have any archived post either.
Alan Glick has been around since last November at least.
Actually July 1999. My mistake. It seems the database is very sensitive about how you enter the dates.
Alan Glick has 154 post between 7/11/99 and 2/22/00.
Nope no archived posts, because while I have enjoyed the site for several years, I never felt the need to communicate let alone the time till now. The magnitude of this disaster has had me glued to the TV and computer almost all of my free time (and then some). My only regret is I'm haveing trouble keeping track of where I am in each thread. Also I don't feel qualified to weigh in on fine details of rerouting. I have been weighing in on the civil engineering aspects of what has happened though, where I feel much more comfortable.
I have made many train posts on SubTalk. You could look it up!
I haven't, But I have been useing Peter's maps for several years, and have a large collection of Subway reading materials, as well as schedules.
This was the first place I thought of though when this happened as buffs usually have more knowledge of what is really going on.
Are you the guy who once insulted my Sea Beach train? If you are, put on the gloves and we have at it. Just thought I'd try to get the website back on trains again. At least for a little while
I'm all for that, fred! P.S. I would never insult the Sea Beach. I grew up in Astoria - originally with the West End (T), but later with the N-Sea Beach.
Well then, you're forgiven. Is it true the N train is now the M train? Oh boy, what a bummer.
Hell, paranoia's always popular, until the facts come in.
I mean, I did only start following this board in July, making only a few posts (you could look it up, if you wanted), given my very, compared to the more prominent posters here, limited knowledge of the intricacies of the subway. And, you know what, it was really interesting, and I learned a lot. And it still is, and I still do. I hope it continues, especially once posts start concentrating on trains again.
Considering you, Train Dude, won't even bother reading this, I'd appreciate it if someone could point these facts out to you, maybe a little later.
Seth
Yup. Isee four or more posting get them without collateral damage and four or more saying get them with max collateral damage. Hopefully this being America we will find the middle road that minimizes collateral damage, yet still get's the job done. Isn't this country great! (0 sarcasm in that statement.
If Thomas Jefferson and his cronies had had their way we would have a government just like England with a limited monarchy. Others would have had anarchy by a government impossible to govern. Instead we ended up with a democracy, and the freedom to express ourselves here.
Hmph I thought we were a Republic.
and yes, I am more into Politics than Trains right now..
But thats just me.
You should have known me before 1999...I would have loved to talk about trains.
I remember seeing a while back some photos of the WTC under construction with the temporary PATH tracks visable. There also might have been some pictures of the old Hudson Terminal. I can't seem to find them anywhere. Does any og you know where to look?
I found them at http://www.nycsubway.org/us/path/wtcbuild/
Does anyone think any part of Hudson Terminal is left?
Given that the A/C tunnel survived to the point that they were already running a couple of trains through it two days ago, and considering where the old PATH station was -- much closer to Church Street than the current one -- it may have made it through the collapse without being pancaked and/or flooded.
From somewhere out in subtalk land, someone popped up and sugessted:
/*Yes. I know that extreme temperatures were what caused the eventual collapse of the Twin towers. But, have you looked at the construction of the towers? Those long beams of metal on the outsides provided a great deal of support to the building. In the event you did not notice, a large number of them did not loose integrity due to extreme heat. They were mowed down by the airplane. When large objects like airplanes go through those support beams, they cease to give support to the floors above. */
But the structure was redundant enough to not only:
a) Curvive the plane going into the building.
b) Survive the building's swaying and dynamics effects immediatly after the hit
c) Stand up despite having lost a MAJOR chunk of it's support.
d) Be sufficiently strong enough to still withstand wind, people moving inside, etc.
/*Aside from those outside support beams, there was a cluster of inside support beams too. While I cannot attest to how those beams held up in the initial impact, I think it's safe to say that a good number of them came down as well. */
Ultimately. My initial guess that the collapse was caused by failure of the central core seems to have been supported by engineers.
/*Now then, after close examination of what I just have said here, if the building was wider, more pillars would have been standing when the plane went in. Further, if the building was wider, more pillars would have been farther from the burning jet fuel. */
Maybe, but they were considerably large buildings to begin with. Of course, larger building means more pillars, but there is a practical limit to the size you can make a building.
/*It looked almost as if the plane was absorbed into the building. You can't tell me that the Empire State Building's exterior would have just allowed the plane to come in the building like WTC did. It would not have. */
Bullshit. A plane going 500mph and weighing 200,000 lbs has an enormous amount of energy. Further, the area that that force was distrubuted over was tiny. That means greater stresses. I wouldn't be surprised if a 737 would have gone right through the building, probbably landing either on the street of in the river.
On the other hand, a blimp at those speeds would have likely bounced off the side of the building.
Anyway, the ESB would have had the same troubles. The building would have toppled for the same reasons.
/*The Cake layer construction of the Empire State Building would have provided more support to the upper floors.*/
Not really - the WTC towers had anamazing amount of support at the top, thanks to beautifully close support pillars from top to bottom.
/*I mean think about it, a wider base supporting a thiner top section at floor 86. That's just common sense. */
Common sense and what actually works are sometimes different. Go read about nuclear reactor designs some day. The GE BWR types* in particular are jaw dropping, as are liquid metal cooled types. But they work beautifully
/*A good part of my point was that the ESB would have fared much better against this attack than the Twin towers.*/
Evidence? IIRC, the ESB doesn't have pillars as close as the WTC.
/* I don't think that any engineer would call me 'foolish' for saying that.*/
Oh man, I wish I had my PE already :( It's a foolish statement, unless you can back it up with logic, and prefferably math. My guess is the WTC designers applied what mechanical engineers have been doing with shafts for decades - putting the strength at the edges where it actually does something. hollow shafts are possible and desireable because the center of a shaft provides no torsional or bending support, and very little to buckiling. I'm guessing the same applies to buildings.
/* I've heard reports from architects that the ESB is three times stronger than it needed to be. I've heard no such thing about WTC's Twin Towers. */
Three times based on what criteria? Of course, was fatigue and other factors acounted for? Likely not. It probbably was with the WTC.
/*While the burning fire within the Tower was indeed responsible for the final collapse, had some other factors been present, much like the ones I stated, the towers could be standing. */
No, the fire was what caused the collapse, totally.
/*I never said anything about this being their fault. I'm glad the designed it the way they did. When it collapsed, it came down on itself. Had it fallen over, stuyvesant is well within range of the building... */
I wouldn't be surprised if it was designed to collapse that way. the designers well understood the risks of building 2 tall towers in a superdensly populated area. Faliure of the structure would likely have been considered.
/ *Sometimes, just sometimes, I actually have some vague idea of what I'm talking about. I know that's hard to believe, but in time you might believe something that I say. */
Prove it. Like Mike's constant banter about rail equipment design, you fail to take into account the fact that the WTC designers had around 40 years of R&D on building design to work with when they designed the WTC. What looked good in the late 20's probbably didn't look so good in the 60's. Alloys were different/better, more was known about how buildings reacted to various forces, and computers had replaced the guessing rod for calculations.
Given how the WTC fared last tuesday, I'm starting to begin to think those doomsday earthquake stories on TV are sweeps month sensationalism journalism, and little more.
* The GE BWR reactors are a bizzare design - control rods enter through the bottom of the reactor, the water in the reactor vessel boils, changes in load causes steam flashovers, the turbines are shielded because of radioactive nitrogen in the steam (1/2 life 7 secs). Most water is used to circulate in the vessel via jet types pumps - which also provides reactor power control. However, it works amazingly well, and had proven very safe. Even though it violates "common sense"
Well said. Small Note though, from the blowout after the 2 impacts it is possible that the central core integrity of the buildings were destroyed leaving the exterior corners holding up the rest of the structure. To have survived so long after that degree of damage is a fine statement of exactly how good the engineering was.
Who supplied the steel for that building? Bethlehem? They make good stuff.
I believe so, have to do some checking to be sure though.
"The buildings withstood the impact of 400,000-pound Boeing 767s crashing into them at perhaps more than 300 mph. ... [plus] there were fires, fed by the estimated 60,000 pounds of jet fuel that each jet was likely carrying. ... A single floor could weigh as much as 3,000 tons. The falling debris started a top-down domino effect engineers call pancaking."
From USA Today article:
Extreme heat, 'pancaking' doom towers into rubble
http://usatoday.com/news/nation/2001/09/13/towers-collapse.htm
Still say that if the sprinkler system, (which according to reports from cellphone users did function in at least one of the buildings) had been charged with foam it would have made a difference. If not in the end, it would have delayed the collapse even more than the structual strength of the buildings. If the temperature hadn't reached 1500 degrees the steel might have retained it's strength.
If the towers hadn't collapsed from the fire I'm not sure how the damage would have been repaired though. How would you repair that degree of damage while still supporting the weight of the undamaged floors above. You couldn't mount cranes above like during the construction. They might have had to demo the buildings anyway.
The only good thing about having the towers up would have been the additional time for people below the impact sites to escape. If the impacts severed the central core structures in both buildings there would have been no way down for the people above the impacts. There would have been time for Helicoptor evacuations though so maybe foam will be the sprinkler systems of the future.
>>> There would have been time for Helicoptor evacuations though so maybe foam will be the sprinkler systems of the future. <<<
I think you are out in left field on this. Sprinkler systems work on the principle of not allowing a small fire to gain a foothold and spread. They are designed to be in standby mode for years at a time without maintenance. They utilize the building's water system, and whatever water pressure the building has. To install foam would require a second pressure system for the foam. This would be tremendous overkill for the typical oily rags in a broom closet fire, and would require gigantic amounts of foam to be effective against a fully fueled airliner colliding with the building. In addition, it would be too hard to predict what damage to the fire suppression system would be done by a plane's impact to design a suppression system without tremendous redundancy. For these reasons, a foam system that could be effective in the event of an airplane collision is not likely to happen.
Tom
Given the loss of life in this case, maybe we should put the effort into designing that system.
No system, water or foam sould have stopped the explosion that took place whem those planes hit. Whatever system was there would have been destroyed before it had time to react. Frankly, events such as this are almost impossible to design for. Another consideration is that planes are made of aluminum and other light materials which may have been sliced up by the columns as they went in. Certainly the heavier center structure served to stop the plane in WTC1 where less debris seemed to be ejected. The plane which hit WTC2 went in lower and at an angle, involving more floors and seeming to miss the core, with much debris coming out the other side at speed. I expect the forensics people studying the debris will find some evidence pointing to exactly what happened in those seconds of impact. We will be hearing about this story for a long time.
The most important thing is that so many people did get out alive - the toll could have been much higher if the planes hadn't been as far apart in time or if the strike on WTC1 hadn't been so high
Considering the beating they took, in the one hour between the time of the first plane striking tower one and the collapse of tower one, sufficient time was given for evacuation of people below the fire floors.
That's all you can ask for in such a situation.
-Hank
To The Group:
In the list of interim routes I overlooked the W (Astoria to Coney Island). It's late & I'm tired...Sorry!
Regards,
George Chiasson Jr.
(Widecab5@aol.com)
I would hope that additional service would be operated on the W since it will not have the N to help it out on the Astoria line and won't have the M to help it out on the West End Line. Also, what does Sea Beach Fred have to say about his line getting the ultimate disrespect: eliminating it! Abeit, hopefully temporarily!
This is current as of 10:00pm, Saturday, 9/15/01. If the service Monday is to be as Widecab5 suggests, there will be a lot of changes on Monday.
Most service resumed on a regular weekend schedule.
Service on the following lines is normal:
A (skips Chambers), B, D, F, G, L, W (local in Manhattan), 6, 7, Grand Central Shuttle.
C service is suspended.
The following lines are operating with some changes:
1 (242nd St/Van Cortlandt to 14th St local.)
2 (241st St./Wakefield to 34th St express. No service Brooklyn to Manhattan.)
3 (148th St to 34th St.)
4 (Woodlawn-Jerome to New Lots Av. Skips Wall Street.)
5 (Dyre Av to Flatbush, skips Wall St.)
E (Extended. Parsons Archer to Euclid Av. Skips World Trade Center.)
J (Extended. Parsons Archer to Broad St.)
M (Metropolitan Av to Broadway/Myrtle. No service Brooklyn to Manhattan.)
N (Ditmars Blvd to Stillwell. Skips Canal St and Prince St.)
Q (Extended to 21st, skips Canal St and Prince St.)
R (95th St to Forest Hills, 71 Av, except diverted around Whitehall, Rector, Cortlandt, and City Hall stations.)
They can't run that network with rush hour levels of service. The H tracks on the bridge are maxed out with the Q and W. They'll have to use the Nassau Loop to take trains.
One thing they could do is run the, N, R and W over the bridge instead of the Q, so they could run onto Queens continuously. Then run all the Nassau Street service (J/M/Z) down the Brighton line. Either that or send the Q to Queens, replacing the N and R.
Too much business on the Brighton Line. The number of transfers at DeKalb would be much worse than the current plan.
Ok, now that Rudy's bunker in 7 WTC has been destroyed, I was wondering where the next ECB might be built. Possibly somewhere a bit more secure. Some ideas that came to my mind were:
1) The lower level of the City Hall R/N station or maybe a new level below that.
2) The old IRT City Hall station (but trains use it).
3) No fixed location at all. Like Airforce One, the city would have a mobile command centre on a subway train. It would be self-propelled, be dual compatible for subway or railroad operation and contain all the meeting space, communications equipment and video monitors you would need. In case of emergency the Mayor would go to, where else, the unused lower level of the City Hall R/N station and board the Emercengy Command Train. The ETC could them stay at the station (itself an Emergency Command Centre) or, like a dockable laptop, it could disconnect and travel to where the Emergency is.
I heard that a new one has been built already. The media reported it to be "at a secret location", so that Donna Hanover doesn't know where he is! Whichever TV, radio outlet or newspaper tells where it is, no more Rudy interviews!
The temporary bunker is about 6 blocks north of the old one. I'll have to find the Times article that showed it to be sure. Will do if asked.
that's a real secret bunker they got there... ppphhh... HAHAHAHAHA!
Are you referring to the temp or the one that is just dust. Doesn't matter much either way. Can you immagine keeping the location of something like that a secret? Certainly not in the New York I grew up in.
Reminds me of Cornell University in the early 70's trying to keep the campus radicals from finding out where the university telephone switchboard was hidden.
I attended Compstat once. It's pretty easy to find out when every precinct commander from a patrol borough will be at the Police Plaza auditorium meeting with the Chief of Department and a bunch of other brass. It happens on a regular schedule. If a terrorist wanted to hurt us that'sone place it could happen.
One of the best locations for the next ECB would be uptown, say near the Cloisters. Lots of good solid rock above sea level there so no flooding problems. Nothing short of a tactical Nuke would take it out up there.
Like the old Polo Grounds Shuttle tunnel.
Problem is getting there from City Hall.
Some what less of a problem then a flooded or collapsed bunker.
>>> One of the best locations for the next ECB would be uptown <<<
Wherever it is located, I am sure they realize that a backup is needed if the primary ECB (which should be near City Hall and police headquarters) is not available. The most important things needed in an ECB are communications equipment and multiple telephone lines, along with computerized data bases to provide information about any area of the city. The loss of an ECB was depicted in the 1974 (disasterous) disaster flic, "Earthquake," so the possibility should not have come as a complete surprise.
Tom
Just what, in the blue hell, were they thinking when they built that 'bunker'? seriously. a bunker should be deep under the ground and easy to secure. they should be building one up in washington heights, as suggested elsewhere, and it should be mad deep under the ground. if the germans could build insanely large bunkers under some cities, there is noreason why we can not.
Damned right!
(I was wondering where the next ECB might be built.)
A Democratic Mayor will not make replacing Rudy's bunker a priority. The emergency was handled without it. If phone problems could be solved, and an emergency center is needed, an 18 wheeler is a more likely solution. It could be moved to the site of a small emergency in addition to coordinating the response to a big one.
Here are some random ideas that I thought of that may have saved some lives if they were implemented. They may seem rediculous at first, but think before you dismiss them:
1. Parachutes on every floor, near the windows. Think about it - How many people who jumped out would have had a chance at survival? Doesn't help the people who got sucked out, though...
2. Rungs on exterior of building columns. The guy who tried to shimmy down the building made it 3 whole floors before he fell. If there were rungs, he probably could have made it to the bottom.
3. Gun turret on top of building. Anything gets too close, radio it. No response, blow it up. Disadvantage: Makes building a bigger target during a war.
As to the last, even if they shot it down, the likelyhood of it impacting buildings is still around 60%.
Not if it's blasted to smithereens. I know the third one isn't the best of ideas, but whatever building it does hit will still be smaller than the one being protected, and it would probably hit the top rather than the side.
3 might make a good deterrent. You run the risk of shooting down a plane by mistake, though.
Seth
The chance wouldn't be very great. What are the chances that a plane has no ill intentions if it's that low, not responding to the radio, and headed straight toward the building?
I vulcan gun has a range of between 5,000 and 10,000 feet. A lot of air AND ground targets fall into that range.
Good point, but for it to be really effective, you'd have to shoot the plane down fairly far away from the building, and in order to do that, you'd need missles, which are inherently riskier (one'll take a plane down, probably, so if you fire accidentally, it's really bad; they track automatically, but I'm not sure if you can guarantee they'll track correctly (on the correct object). Also, if you have just one emplacement of missles per city, you can cover a lot more territory more efficiently than with gun turrets atop every tall building.
Something of that sort would make a good deterrent, though.
Seth
HAWK missiles have a 96% accuracy rate in combat vs. military targets. At least that's what my book says.
Somehow all of the ideas for keeping the planes away from the buildings seem to be almost as risky as just letting the plane through.
One thing that might have really made a difference in this case is if the building sprinkler system had been charged with foam. It would have snuffed out the fires, or at least damped them greatly. Given that most of the engineering opinions on the collapse blame the heat of the fire, getting the fire out or down significantly would have made all the difference.
The problem is nose on planes are very difficult to hit, because there is no profile. In the Pacific against the Japanes whose planes were much slower than today's, the most difficult to hit were the ones coming straight at you. You have a much better chance if you are targeting from the side. Last point, where do all the rounds go that don't hit the plane. You are shooting at a negative elevation which means into the city in most directions.
Hitting an airliner with a 20mm Vulcan cannon firing 100 rounds per second with a dual radar tracking system that tracks both the target and the projectiles is like hitting the side of a barn with a beach ball. Those systems can destory a supersonic missile heading right at you.
How about the negative elevation you would be shooting at? Where do the rounds go that don't hit?
Hopefully not into people.
Question: If all planes have beacons, surely those beacons could put out a message like 'I am a rogue: I have been hijacked,' activated by a large red button in the cockpit? I hear the Pentagon has anti-missile defences. If so, one assumes they would be programmed to discount moving objects with aircraft beacons. This only works if those objects are aircraft and the good guys are in the cockpit . . . . Just a thought.
Let's face it. If someone decides to be a kamikazi pilot you have about a 50% chance of stopping them dead with AA fire. Even if you hit them, there is still a good chance that they will make it through. A plane looks damned big till you see it through a gunsite nose on. With the density of a city like New York you might be able to keep it away from a specific building, but they are likely to hit something else instead.
If you use heat seeking missles you had better be damned sure you hit the plane involved, otherwise with the air traffic density in the metro area you would be just as likely to get a different plane.
The best way to avoid this issue is to eliminate air traffic within 10 or more miles of the city which might just give a scrambled jet time to take out the kamikazi before it's destination.
I still say it's time to institute Retinal scans for ID. If you can keep the terrorists off the plane in the first place you don't have to go to extremes like AA batteries in the city.
If you use heat seeking missles you had better be damned sure you hit the plane involved, otherwise with the air traffic density in the metro area you would be just as likely to get a different plane.
Contrary to popular belief "heat-seeking" missiles are A) not the only type of missile, B) are short range and C) are not very big. For city defence you would use a large, radar guided SAM like a MIM-23 HAWK or a MIM-104 Patriot. In the case of the Patriot, the blast fragmentation warhead shoots several hundred bricks of metal toward the target in a shotgun blast. Each brick has the kenetic energy of a large automobile being droped from an 8 story building. These large missiles have a range of between 70 and 100 miles and can defend a whole region.
How do you target a SAM in a high density traffic pattern like that? If the missles were based in the city you might stand a chance, but typically missle emplacements are well outside the cities. If you can't eliminate the traffic over the city in the first place, any other ideas are only a bandaid. As was shown with the Scuds, you don't hit every target, and in this case you can't afford to miss. I'm not sure of exact numbers, but I would guess that there are often as many as 30 planes in the air in the metro area at most times. At peak hours landings happen at 2 minute intervals times 3 airports. Are SAMs really practical in this type of situation?
Modern SAMS can easily single out and hit a target. First of all, many can be guided by a remote radar. Second, this is the whole concept of a Radar being able to "lock on" to a target. Unless two planes pass very close to eachother, the radar will not be confused.
How is the depth perception though. If there is another plane beyond the target will it pick up the right one, or would you have to take out both to be sure?
Yes, a radar lock on keeps track of distance, direction and speed.
Thanks for the info.
Rather than talk about SAM's and the like, why not just take an idea from El Al and fortify airliner cockpit doors to resist assault? I don't know how expensive that would be, but surely it couldn't be more than a trivial percentage of an airliner's cost.
[Rather than talk about SAM's and the like, why not just take an idea from El Al and fortify airliner cockpit doors to resist assault? ]
Or make sure that it can be only opened remotely.
Arti
I am also thinking of several extra long inflatable rubber chutes that can be directed away from dangerous areas in the skyscraper. (similar to those in commercial jets)
Having been to the top of the trade center, some of those chutes would have to lead into Liberty State Park to be effective.
Or to the roofs of nearby skyscrapers?
Right... forgot about that... Even though the next tallest building in the area is (was?) 50 stories or so.
If we build another pair of towers, and one gets damaged (fire, plane, etc), how 'bout making it possible to put bridges to the other tower (diagonal from the corners if we use WTC's old placement). Wood-and-rope bridges, so that the movement of the buildings is irrelevent. I know this idea sucks, it was one I briefly considered earlier and dismissed, but I figured I'd post it anyway.
Might have made a difference if both towers hadn't been hit. Also if I remember correctly the smoke from "1" was drifting towards "2". I'm not sure I would have been able to crose a rope bridge 1300 ft above ground in heavy smoke. (or without smoke for that matter).
I'd pay for that ride.
1. Parachutes on every floor, near the windows. Think about it - How many people who jumped out would have had a chance at survival? Doesn't help the people who got sucked out, though...
Chutes require training. Better ideas would include a plan to evacuate as many people as possible via hellicoptor. This would mean easy roof access and a some what clear landing/hover area. You could also have some sort of emergency zip line going from the roof to another building. You would have a bunch of harnesses on the roof. Problems might include the line becomming a ariel obstruction and/or lightning magnet. Probably the best idea would be to have 4 or so emergency deployable repelling lines. Having done it myself repelling is not hard and you could have emergency harnesses with easy to read instructions and a whole lot of gloves. Heck, you don't even need the harnesses, just really really thick gloves. In an emergency anything is better than nothing.
2. Rungs on exterior of building columns. The guy who tried to shimmy down the building made it 3 whole floors before he fell. If there were rungs, he probably could have made it to the bottom.
That's not a bad idea, you just need to keep people OFF them in a non-emergency. Plenty of internal stairwels would also help. In the WTC there were 3 and they were near the core. A better arrangement would be one at each corner and one in the middle.
3. Gun turret on top of building. Anything gets too close, radio it. No response, blow it up. Disadvantage: Makes building a bigger target during a war.
Mounting an Autotrack Vulcan on top of tall buidings may
just be what will be done. However, you need to make DAMN sure that nobody can activate or fire the gun w/o authroization. A better system would be a HAWK or Patriot SAM battery defending each +500,000 pop metro area.
Can you imagine 4,000 people climbing down 1,300 ft on the outside of a building? Even in my prime that would have been a daunting experience. At 52 I might as well just let go. Between the fear of heights and being out of shape I would probably freeze up, blocking the escape of other people.
How many helicopter flights do you think you would be able to be made given the smoke in this situation. Even if you used Hueys you would be lucky to get a 1,000 people off in the time that was available.
Even if you used Hueys you would be lucky to get a 1,000 people off in the time that was available.
That's 1000 people more than would have survived. In this case, even w/o the smoke I don't think the roof was very accessable to people.
Can you imagine 4,000 people climbing down 1,300 ft on the outside of a building? Even in my prime that would have been a daunting experience.
That's why I prefer the repelling or zip lines. You just let gravity do the work.
The roof to 2 WTC was very accessible to people. Just get to 107 and the rest of the way is escalators.
The ladder thing wouldn't be to get all the way to the bottom, just to get far enough down from the fire floor to be able to access the stairs.
I thought they had locks and fences to prevent people from jumping and or parachuting off.
They did. I guess if the locks and fences were removed it would be possible. We would have to live with the sky divers though along with the risk of recovering the ones (skydivers) who didn't make it to the ground.
I thought we were talking about access to the roof so people could get to a helecopter...
Yeah, on the WTC the roof is locked down so that depressed indivuduals or daredelivs won't jump off.
Make that was.
I like the paracute idea: but how about hang gliders? that'd be a sight! Maybe personal portable jet packs? james bond stuff for sure, but hey...
A large helicopter (or 3 or 4 or 5) stocked with a whole lot of Foam would be a great tool for the FDNY to have. Also, water pressure was getting bad, but so far as i know there is just one fireboat, with the 'new' ones all lemons in drydock. they oughta order up a few more of them as well.
A fire boat would have been worthless until the collapse. The damage was done at roughly 850', and 950' I'm not sure that any fire fighting equipment available can shoot water that high. The acting fire chief indicated that anything above 10 stories needed to be fought from inside useing the standpipes.
that's where helicopters would come in... in the high rise situation.
the boats were needed after the first tower collapsed, it seemed, because they were loosing water pressure on the ground. while they'd never be able to hit anything as high up as the fires were, i'm sure it'd have been helpful for the ground situation.
>>> Parachutes on every floor, near the windows. <<<
Really not all that practical, but if I were a base jumper and worked on one of the top floors, I probably would keep a parachute around,
>>> Gun turret on top of building. Anything gets too close, radio it. No response, blow it up. <<<
One big question: Who is going to pay the multiple gun crews necessary to man the gun 24-7? This would not be a situation where a watchman sits on the roof reading a comic book. Modern radar controlled weapons need skilled teams including those who operate the radar, those who evaluate the threats, and those who service the gun itself. In addition maintenance personnel are needed to immediately troubleshoot and repair the equipment. Given three shifts, and the necessity for vacations, illness, and live fire training at some other location, it would take 60-80 people to support this gun. The cost will certainly add a few cents per square foot to everyone's rent. Second question: Who makes the decision to fire at an aircraft? And if it turns out that it was a heavy a bit off course with 400 souls aboard and a malfunctioning radio, trying to reach Kennedy, that gets shot down, who pays the damages?
Tom
Parachutes are not a bad idea...
But the most important change to make is on board the airplanes. Have solid steel doors with strong locks separating the passenger compartment from the cockpit. And a clear, well-publicized policy that the door is not to be opened while the plane is in flight, under any circumstances, regardless of any threats made to passengers or flight attendants. Highjacking then becomes impossible, since no one can get to the pilot or the controls.
This is the way El Al operates. It will be far more effective than banning knives on planes, and with far less negative impact on passengers. (Airline food can only get worse if no food that needs a knife to cut it can be served.) Perhaps there should even be an interlock that prevents the door from being opened, from either side, while the plane is in the air, so that it is physically impossible for the pilots to ignore the policy. Future planes could even be built with separate doors for the flight crew to enter and exit the cockpit from the outside, with no interior connection between the cockpit area (including rest area for the flight crew) and passenger compartments at all, just a solid wall.
But the most important change to make is on board the airplanes. Have solid steel doors with strong locks separating the passenger compartment from the cockpit. And a clear, well-publicized policy that the door is not to be opened while the plane is in flight, under any circumstances, regardless of any threats made to passengers or flight attendants. Highjacking then becomes impossible, since no one can get to the pilot or the controls.
This is the way El Al operates.
It's a good idea, and certainly has worked well for El Al. But one question - how do the pilots get to the restroom?
Open the window.
Perhaps there should even be an interlock that prevents the door from being opened, from either side, while the plane is in the air, so that it is physically impossible for the pilots to ignore the policy.
Ok, this is bad because pilots can become incapacitated during the flight (it's rare, but it happens) and some body needs to get in there to fly the plane. They also have to get their food and use the bathroom.
Well, there would be a bathroom on the cockpit side of the wall, of course. And there is always a co-pilot onboard who can take over if the main pilot is incapacitated. It seems unlikely that they both would be. But not inconceivable. But if it happened, the tower would know about it. So perhaps a system could be set whereby the door could be opened in flight if, and only if, a special coded radio signal was received from ground controllers.
But then the towers would become targets. So perhaps its best to just trust the pilots to follow the rules and keep the doors locked, but not try to enforce it technologically.
Parachutes are not a bad idea...
But the most important change to make is on board the airplanes. Have solid steel doors with strong locks separating the passenger compartment from the cockpit. And a clear, well-publicized policy that the door is not to be opened while the plane is in flight, under any circumstances, regardless of any threats made to passengers or flight attendants. Highjacking then becomes impossible, since no one can get to the pilot or the controls.
This is the way El Al operates. It will be far more effective than banning knives on planes, and with far less negative impact on passengers. (Airline food can only get worse if no food that needs a knife to cut it can be served.) Perhaps there should even be an interlock that prevents the door from being opened, from either side, while the plane is in the air, so that it is physically impossible for the pilots to ignore the policy. Future planes could even be built with separate doors for the flight crew to enter and exit the cockpit from the outside, with no interior connection between the cockpit area (including rest area for the flight crew) and passenger compartments at all, just a solid wall.
Why the crowds at Atlantic/Pacific on Friday?
Earlier in the week I could understand, when only the Q/W was running to Manhattan. But on Friday the 4/5 was also running.
The police had set up a long barricade down the middle of the passageway between the 4/5 and the Q, to separate traffic flow by direction. (I don't know about the other passageway -- I was changing from the 4 to the Q.) Why would the transfer have become so popular all of a sudden? N and R passengers could transfer across the platform to the W at Pacific or to the Q at DeKalb, and Q and W passengers had direct access to Manhattan, with the 14th Street transfer fully operational. Nonetheless, seemingly the entire world was walking from the Q towards the IRT as I walked the other way (guess I just missed a train).
Maybe pamela anderson was in the station wearing something skimpy?
*rimshot*
humor heals.
IRT service had to be stop on Thursday morning because of severe overcrowding on the platform at Atlantic Avenue.
On Friday, to my surprise, I noticed many NJT trains had flags in their front windows or on the fronts of engines. I'm sure it's done by the individual LEs rather than the company. I hope MNRR and LIRR LEs do the same, but not NYCT (steel dust won't look good on a flag).
Planning ahead for the Biketoberfest, and just as a lark, I decided to check AMTRAK as an alternative to riding or trailering to Daytona. Not only does AMTRAK accept bikes on the AUTOTRAIN but they offer the service at a significant reduction from the standard auto price. R/T on the AUTOTRAIN is $92 cheaper for a bike than it is for standard car.
It makes sense that a change in scrapping status for the Redbirds was ordered by the MTA. This parallels past war-time procedures.
As an aside, wouldn't it be nice if future rolling stock were painted in the arguably BEST COLOR-SCHEME ever! I have always imagined similar tints in green and blue with the same black trim. We could call them parrots and bluebirds.;) Why does the greatest city in the world, in the GREATEST COUNTRY IN THE WORLD, have such pathetically ugly rolling stock when we could have better?; e.g. R-44's, the rest of the R-40 series, the Silver Hippo's, etc. Couldn't Cow and Bomb have painted their cars in this way while not changing a thing in the design otherwise? Does anyone else agree or am I a lone rodent who dwells in the dark netherworld of the NYC subway tunnels, cursing R-68's who try to run over me?
Never feed the Tunnel Rat...
I rode car # 4071 on the E from Queens Plaza to Roosevelt Ave. A cool ride although kinda slow........ I guess these cars arent used to running out here the consist I had was from north to south: 4071 4070 3999 3998 4011 4010 4109 4108 4050 4051. there is only about 2 or 3 sets on the E they may be out tommorrow but who knows. Another consist I saw was again from north to south: 4130 4131 4140 4141 4120 4121 4132 4133 4005 4004. That set was also on the E today.
There were two sets. Both were in Roosevelt Ave station at 4PM. No pax noticed.
The song is sung to the tune of "ON TOP OF OLE SMOKY"
Osama bin Laden
by Tunnel Rat
Osama bin Laden, all covered in blood,
Got hit by Cruise Missiles, he's ear-deep in mud
We sent out a message, to all terrorists,
You're muderous Jihad, the U.S. resists
You've killed men and women, who meant you no harm,
We buried Osama, so watch out Sadam!
To be released by Columbia Records in collaberation with White House Productions, 10/31/01
In the last hour they have named the homeland defense operation "Noble Eagle". Includes fighter coverage on both coasts, ship patrols off the coast, and any internal reserve or regular military support.
Your e-mail has been bouncing from here all day.
I sent you an email earlier this morning. Post if you don't get it, and I'll try to find out what's going on.
Seth
Hi folks
Let me start by hoping everyone is safe and to offer my prayers to all...
I apologize if this was mentioned already...
I normally use the N to Cortlandt...that morning, I have to commend the crew that took me to work. First, we were on schedule. There were a lot of parents with children on the train, and the conductor who was making annoucements kept us calm...thanks whoever he was, he made very good announcements, especially around Whitehall and the fact that we had to skip WTC, that we had to turn off the A/C. etc.
....The Daily News reported that the MTA confirmed that 2 R's and 2 N's were stuck in the vicinity, my guess is WTC and Rector St. They mentioned that the station should still be intact...
They didn't mention if there was any people in these 4 trains....is it safe to guess "no"...the Cortlandt St station & Rector St station are close to street level so I can't really predict....
The Path is a different story, it was so much lower....
Also, does anybody know anything about the Church Street post office, I saw some rescue crews operating in front of the building, which is made of brick or cement (if my memory serves me correct)....how is that building holding up??
Thanks.
Jonathan
SeaBeach53
I heard from my mom (USPS worker) that the top 2 floors "cracked" as of Tuesday.
Why the 53 in your handle? I last rode the #4 Sea Beach in 1953. I am very curious. And where have you been keeping yourself? You haven't posted in quite a while. And since I must know what my fellow Sea Beach buddies are doing, please explain.
Spotted: trash train heading southon Bway local tracks at union sq - possibly to load up on crap from the WTC area. also, along the waterfront in brooklyn, dozens of "moble wash unit" station cleaning trucks rolling south on kent av. no idea what they'll be cleaning... though there certainly is enough to wash down...
Are they still running the vacuum train? If it can pick up steel dust and fluff (as the Brits call it) it should work great on the building dust that has made it into the tunnels.
good question... wish i knew... i also wonder if they have cars to help pump out the water that flooded some stations, or if they dragged out the old Q cars that were in sunset park near the scrap yard for one more round of submerged service?
Transit has three sets of pump trains to help with flooded areas.
Also, the Mobile wash units belong to Stations, not MOW.
3 sets? go figure...
I spotted a few MTA trucks (SUVs) down in battery park today with "NYPD" hand written on the windows in that white shoe polish-ish stuff car salesmen use. i guess they're borrowing a few for awhile...
That thing? I was greeted by the Regular Work Train, as it's called on the IRT, 3X at 59th St and Lexington Av. They're doing the usual rounds of garbage pickup. The train which was double-ended (two T/Os) pulled southbound on the downtown platform into 59th St, picked up garbage, and changed direction, and headed into the spur. It came out of the spur, and came into northbound track to be turned yet again - A road train was coming. It returned into the spur. I was greeted by a T/O who was doing an impression of Tarzan from the spur. He must have thought I'd be listening. The train came out of the spur yet again to pick up garbage from the northbound side before going back to the spur and heading south from there.... All in a day's work, I guess. The T/O was certainly in a good mood!
-Stef
Crazy. i figured they'd have stopped the usual service for a bit to help out downtown. there seemed to be a big pile of bags at 34th herald sq. so i guessed the 'regular work train' just wasn't making the usual rounds.
To those of you trying to reach me at my email address, it has fallen victim
to power issues at Telehouse, 25 B'way. FDNY shut down their emergency
generator when it began to emit smoke from overheating. I can be reached
for comment via replies to these messages, or at heisenstein@(Abbreviate
Staten Island).rr.com
I am attempting to put together a comprehensive list of all PUBLICLY
REPORTED and OFFICIALLY RELEASED information. I am doing my best to release
only ACCURATE information from sources public, official, and trusted unnamed
sources. I again apologize for duplicating information. Most of this
update will be to add names of KNOWN MISSING that have been PUBLICLY
REPORTED. Also note the change of unit type associated with L18. Unit is
actually SQ18. FF Wilkenson was a Lt. BC Downey removed from LODD list, added to missing list. Confirmed LODD are included in the signature paragraph at the bottom of this message. Staten Island is belived to be the hardest hit
by the loss of men, not only in the FDNY but also the NYPD and WTC
employees, as the borough has the highest per-capita FDNY and NYPD
workers of the city. It is important to note that the number of men lost
per company is higher than the regular duty crew because the alarm came in
at change of shift; many FFs who were about to go off-duty for the day
responded with their soon to be on-duty brothers.
FDNY is currently operating on a 24-on/24-off shift. As of 1800hrs 9/15/01, remians of 39 members of the FDNY have been identified.
I will be posting this on a text-only web site shortly. Funeral info can be
found at the following link: http://www.nyfd.com/arrangements11.html
If anyone can get me a rundown of the units assigned as of 1000hrs 9/11/01,
it would be appreciated. I still do not have a web host for this
information, so I will continue to distribute it in this manner.
Additional bad news on a personal front, a good freind of my new wife's late father, Steven A. "Steve" Jacobson, N2SJ, a transmitter engineer for WPIX-TV is among the missing.
This list now includes 61 missing MOS and 26 FDNY LODD.
Additional info for LODD at the scene. Notes on the confirmed missing:
Capt. Timothy Stackpole was a member of Brooklyn's Ladder Co 103, and was
seriously injured in the floor collapse 10/5/98 that claimed the lives of
Capt. Scott LaPiedra and Lt. Jimmy Blackmore.
Rescue 4 lost two members in the Father's Day tragedy, FF Harry Ford and FF
Brian Fahey
Official reports as of Friday morning were 350 FDNY, 23 NYPD, 42 PANYNJPD
personnel missing. 5 members of the FDNY are confirmed LODD.
FOX NEWS reports that the winner of their 'Murder in Small Town X' series, a
FF from the Bronx assigned to a ladder company in Chinatown, is among the
missing.
FF Kenneth Haskell, one of the rescuers, is a second-generation FDNY FF. Father, the late Thomas Haskell; two brothers listed among the missing.
It is presumed that a large portion of the on-duty crews of the following companies were
lost:
Division 3, Manhattan (Many of the missing companies belong to this
division; missing 63; I do not have the command structure of this division,
please email if you do)
Rescue 1, Manhattan
Rescue 2, Brooklyn
Rescue 3, Harlem/Bronx
Rescue 4 (Apparatus recovered; missing 8), Queens
Rescue 5 (Apparatus recovered; 11 men missing,12 men responded, 1 with a
second piece of apparatus known as the Tactical Support Unit. FF Bill Spade
spent 3 days in the hospital, and is medically relieved from full duty),
Staten Island
Field Comm 1 (This vehicle is usually used as an on-scene command center),
Brooklyn
Ladder 9, Manhattan
Engine 10
Ladder 10 (E10 and L10 are 'Ten House' on Liberty Street. These companies
are first-due at boxes 8087 and 8084, located directly across the street
from hte scene; additionally, previously posted info on the apparatus serial
SL990006-This is the rig assigned to L10)
Squad 1 (Apparatus destroyed), Brooklyn
Squad 18 (Previously reported as Ladder 18; Ladder 18 crew is OK), Manhattan
Engine 226, Brooklyn
Engine 33, Manhattan
Ladder 25, Manhattan (9 members)
Ladder 24, Manhattan (6 members)
Missing Men, with company and company borough:
Capt. Timothy Stackpole (Unk. Co.)
BC Raymond Downey, Special Operations Command
FF Nicholas Rossomando, Rescue 5, Staten Island
FF Leonard Ragaglia, Engine 54, Manhattan
FF Carl Molinaro, Ladder 2, Manhattan
PO James Leary, 6th Pct NYPD, Manhattan (last reported hauling SCBA
equipment to the upper floors)
FF Jeff Giordano, Ladder 3, Manhattan
PFF Michael Cammarata, Ladder 11, Manhattan
PO Christopher Amoroso, PANYNJPD, WTC
FF Mike Clarke, Engine 8 or Ladder 2, Manhattan
FF James Giberson, Ladder 35, Manhattan
FF Timothy McSweeney, Ladder 3, Manhattan
FF Steven Olsen, Ladder 35, Manhattan
FF John Tierney, Ladder 9, Manhattan
Asst. Chief Gerald Barbra, Citywide Tour Commander
FF Peter Carroll, Squad 1, Brooklyn
FF Robert Cordice (possibly 'Gordice'). Squad 1, Brooklyn
FF Michael Fiore, Rescue 5, Staten Island
FF Joe Mascali, Rescue 5, Staten Island
Capt. Louis Modafferu, Rescue 5, Staten Island
FF Chuck Margiotta, Rescue 5, Staten Island
VFF Keith Roma, Fire Patrol 2, Manhattan (VFF for Richmond Engine Co. 1,
Staten Island)
FF Jeff Giordano, Ladder 3, Manhattan
PO George Howard, PANYNJPD, Kennedy Airport
PO Robert D. "Bob" Cirri Sr, PANYNJPD, WTC (KA2OTD)
PO Paul Talty, ESU 10-NYPD, Queens
PO John Dallara, ESU 2-NYPD, Manhattan
PO Brian McDonnell, ESU 1-NYPD, Manhattan
PO Dominick Pezzulo, PANYNJPD, Port Authority Bus Terminal, Manhattan
FF Michael Boyle, Company Unknown, Manhattan
FF David Arce, Company Unknown, Manhattan
PO Liam Callahan, ESU-PANYNJPD, New Jersey
Capt. Thomas Haskell Jr., Squad 18, Manhattan (Brother of FF Timothy Haskell)
FF Timothy Haskell, Ladder 132, Brooklyn (Brother of Capt. Thomas Haskell)
Vol. Paramedic Richard Pearlman, Forest Hills Ambulance Corps, Queens.
FF Christian Regenhard, Ladder 131 (Detailed to Engine 279), Brooklyn
Sgt. Michael Curtin, ESU 2-NYPD, Manhattan
PO Vincent Danz, ESU 3-NYPD, Bronx
PO Stephen Driscoll, ESU 4-NYPD, Bronx
PO John Perry, 40 Pct-NYPD, Bronx (Off-duty, was at 1 Police Plaza to file for retirement)
PO Glenn Pettit, Police Academy Video Unit-NYPD, Manhattan
Sgt. Timothy Roy, Bus Squad-NYPD, Manhattan
Det. Joeseph Vigiano, ESU 3-NYPD, Bronx
PO Ronald Cloepfer, ESU 7-NYPD, Brooklyn
Sgt. John Coughlin, ESU 4-NYPD, Bronx
PO Jerome Dominguez, ESU 3-NYPD, Bronx
PO Mark Ellis, TD 4-NYPD, Manhattan
PO Robert Fazio, 13th Pct-NYPD, Manhattan
Sgt. Rodney Gillis, ESU 8-NYPD, Brooklyn
PO Thomas Langone, ESU 10-NYPD, Queens
Det. Claude Richards, Bomb Squad-NYPD, Bronx
PO Moira Smith, 13th Pct-NYPD, Manhattan
PO Ramone Suarez, TD 4-NYPD, Manhattan
PO Santos Valentin, ESU 7-NYPD, Brooklyn
PO Walter Weaver, ESU 3-NYPD, Bronx
FF Gary Geidel, Rescue 1, Manhattan
Non-Emergency Service personnel engaged in Emergency Duty
FF William Wren (Ret.), OCS Security, Fire Safety Office, WTC
FF Richard Fitzsimons (Ret.), OCS Security, Fire Safety Office, WTC
Philip Hayes, OCS Security, Fire Safety Office, WTC
Larry Boisseau, OCS Security, Fire Safety Office, WTC
Robert Mayo, OCS Security, Fire Safety Office, WTC
9/13/01 NY Daily News has shown photos of the destruction, including
overturned ambulances belonging to private hospitals, private ambulance corps, and the
FDNY
9/14/01 Staten Island Advance published photos of FFs from Engine 28,
Manhattan, climbing stairs as people evacuate the building. One of the
evacuees took the photos.
9/16/01 FDNY has posted the names, ranks and photos of LODD members at WWW.FDNY.ORG
--
5-5-5-5
Dept. Chaplin Fr. Mychal Judge
First Dep. Commissioner William Feehan
Chief of Dept. Peter J. Ganci Jr.
FF Raymond R. York Jr., E286, Brooklyn
Lt. Glenn E. Wilkinson, E238, Brooklyn
FF Daniel Fuhr, E216, Brooklyn
FF Roburt Curatolo, L16, Manhattan
Lt. Andrew Desperito, E1, Manhattan (also VFF for Hagerman VFD, Long Island)
BC John Williamson, Battalion 6, Manhattan
Capt. Daniel Brethel, L24, Manhattan
Capt. Martin Egan, Division 15, Brooklyn
Capt. Walter Hynes, L13, Manhattan
FF Eric Allen, SQ18, Manhattan
FF Louis Arena, L5, Manhattan
FF Andrew Brunn, L5, Manhattan
FF Peter Carroll, SQ1, Brooklyn
FF Sean Hanley, L20, Manhattan
FF Thomas Hannafin, L5, Manhattan
FF Timothy Haskell, (See Note!), Manhattan (Brother of missing Capt. Thomas Haskell)
FF William Henry, R5, Staten Island
FF Martin McWilliams, E22, Manhattan
FF Manuel Mojica, SQ18, Manhattan
FF John Santore, L5, Manhattan
FF Lawrence Virgilio, SQ18, Manhattan
FF Michael Weinberg, E1, Manhattan
Sept. 11, 2001 from injuries sustained at Manhattan box 8087 transmitted at
0847 hours Sept. 11, 2001.
Note on FF Haskell-Possible misidentification of unit or FF. One of two brothers listed as missing.
Non-FDNY Personnel
Yamel Merino EMT; Metro Care Ambulance Co. (*)
Current Funeral Arrangements
http://www.nyfd.com/arrangements11.html
http://www.firehouse.com/terrorist/list.html
http://www.fdny.org
Reaching the top:
http://subtalk.nycsubway.org/cgi-bin/subtalk.cgi?read=264240
When I am called to duty, God
Where ever flames may rage,
Give me the strength to save some life
Whatever be its age.
Help me embrace a little child
Before it is to late
Or save an older person from
The horror of that fate.
Enable me to be alert and hear the weakest shout
And quickly and efficiently
To put the fire out
I want to fill my calling and
To give the best in me,
To guard my every neighbor and
Protect his property.
And if according to my fate
I am to lose my life
Please bless with your protecting hand
My children and my wife.
-Author Unknown, from the Worcester Memorial.
Has anyone seen or heard any of the mayoraly candidates anywhere since Tuesday?
I understand that they would not be front and center during the chaos, but the primary has been rescheduled for not much more than a week.
Mayor of New York has always been a job larger than just the City and who knows what the next mayor will have to deal with. A lot of what I've been reading, including here, suggests that people think that this incident is a one shot, and all we have to worry about is rebuilding and getting on with our lives.
Let's hope that's true, but we have no reason to assume that. Americans have been disconnected from war for a long time. When you think of "Vietnam Veteran" what image comes to your mind. A guy in a wheelchair with a grizzled beard? A nut going off his rocker with post-traumatic stress syndrome? A minority member who was plucked off the street? A working class guy who was too stupid to get out of the service?
These are the images I've seen from the general culture and even from numerous discussions and comments from my 60s contemporaries.
They reflect general misunderstandings about that war but they also reflect a disconnect in society from the realities of what happens in wartime.
The NYC mayoralty candidates, and the voters, better realize that the mayor may be a soldier in the front lines. They, and the voters, must realize that they will have to manage a culturally diverse city with unimagined tensions.
I wish I could hear what they think. This may be a more critical election than anyone could have imagined.
Has anyone seen or heard any of the mayoraly candidates anywhere since Tuesday?
Vallone has been at the mayor's side at all the press conferences and at some site visits by virtue of being head of the legislative branch. He made a point last night of saying that when the City Council meets this week, they will pass legislation extending certain land use deadlines. Green was shown delivering a eulogy at FDNY's Chaplin Judge's funeral.
I think there was supposed to be a unity press conference with all the candidates but I did not see it.
The Campaign Finance Board announced that no additional money would be forthcoming because of the delayed election.
One big problem is that most of the TV stations are out. The lack of money might not help Bloomberg all that much, if the TV blackout continues. It won't help the blacked out networks either.
Channel 2 WCBS has been on the air since the attack. WNBC channel 4 has been on since Friday night, and has gotten a slightly better signal after going off the air tonight for a few minutes. Channel 11 was on with a weak signal but is now near full power. Channels 5,9,and 13 will be off the air for a little while longer. I'm also getting a very weak signal on channel 7.
I guess all the stations are in the process of setting up new facilities at the Empire State Building. Wow, almost all NYC TV and radio from one spot. Other tall buildings such as Citicorp on 53rd street and the Chrysler building could be used. A long time ago alot of stuff came from near Douglaston Queens.
Thanks to cable, none of the stations (except 9 I believe) were put out of commission. But I was wondering whether any were off "the air."
The commonly perceived image of the planet has totally changed.
The Hurt American
The middle class American is an optimist, religious being, who doesn't tend to be ironic and does not care about the rest of the rest of the world, however he is convinced that his country is the most important, the most civilized, the most just (fair), the most powerful and the least vulnerable in the History of Humanity.
After 'Armegedon', the event of the fall of the aircrafts on the Twin Towers of Manhatan which was 100 time smore devastating to the American psyche than Pearl Harbour or Vietnam, everything changed forever. The picture which the Americans had for themselves and the relationship with the rest of the planet -and possibly with God himself- totally changed.. There are not simple and clear answers any longer, just questions.
After they rubbed their eyes and understood that what they were seing on TV was not some paranoid science fiction movie but pictures of real events that had occured in NY, they fell into confusion..Huge destrauctions lika this, if ever, happened only in other countires. Not in them. 'They cannot attack us in such a way, kill as as if we are flies.' ANd they were right to think like this, not only bacause what happend surpasses the worst nightmare of the most paranoid military officer of Pentagon but because USA had never been -in their own land- a victim country. The USA was always attacking other countries, they were the aggressors. (Although always to defend a just cause, as our middle class American thinks)USA bombarded Hirosima and Anoi (Vietnam) but never imagined that what happened in Anoi/Hirosima would be repeated in Washington or New York
WHo can hate us so much? Why? Aren't we the richest country in the world, but also the most 'good'? In a country where less that 10% has a passport and less than 10% can spot on the map Spain (let us not talk about Iraq or Afghanistan), in acountry where the national league of their most popular sport, their village's bazeball, is called 'World League' and the winner 'World Champion', in the country where the planet beyond American boundaries is not interesting at all, it should not surprise us that people are astonished when they discover that there are a lot of human beings who hate their country, calling it 'Great Satan' indeed.
And not only in Missdle East. It is curious, for example, or should one say surprising, that with a few exceptions the Americans have not realized the havoc they created in Central America, CHile and other and other countries of their own continent in the 80s, the victims of their most celebrated president after the Kenendy era, Roanl Reagan.
However today's confusion runs even deeper. Apart from the surprise that he felt discivering their level of ignorance concerning the problems of the rest of the world, he feels that the foundations of his world are shaking. The American is an individual who believes in big truths, 'obvious truths', as it is referred to in the Independence Declaration, and one of these is that USA are the country in which their ancestors came in search of a better and safer life, is a sanctuary against Evil, which may exist in the outside, unknown world. Fortress Americaa is an expression oftenly used. But when tsuddenly, these two magnificent symbols of financial and military power of USA, WTC and the Pentagon, became vulnerable, then we are all vulnerable, they think again.
We believd that we would do wars without wasting any soldier, or, even better, this is what we demanded from our politicians. And now we see thousands of civilians dead. What confuses us more, what makes a difference with the grandeur of Pearl Harbour, is that we don't know who the enemy is. Not only they attacked us but they made us impotent to see them -despite CIA, FBI, despite the spy satellites we have- see the attavker.
All of these mean that is will cost us that we were so optimist towards the world and this optimism is -or was- our national characteristic. What makes us different from the Europeans, who are ironic, cynical men, who suffered big destructions throughout history and they have paid even with their lives, is that they have seen their end of their innocence the fall of their empires. The other big characteristc of Americans is that they view the world as black and White. The world, as Bush himself has said, is divided in good and evil.
The American Christianism, the most akin/fervent in the Western world, is a christianism that gives more emphasis to the Old rather than the New Testament.For CHrist their was a range of colours. For the prophets the things were simpler. Justice was an 'eye for an eye' tit for tat matter. That's why there is no discussion for the death penalty. It is considered justified and necessary. The retaliation of USA-more harse even towards their own people- will be biblical towards who create Armageddon, the final and definite loss of American innocence.
If anybody has these please post here and label the thread accordingly or email me at nfi857@aol.com. Thanks in advance.
From the NY Times. I don't know if clicking these will force you to a logon page or not.
Area map as of 9/14/01
Tunnel damage
There are two stations between Brooklyn Bridge and Bowling Green. The "tunnel damage" map portrays only one.
Did you notice they credited Peter Dougherty for the tunnel damage map.
Arti
I didn't see that at first. Obviously the info they got from the TA was insufficient and they used Peter's map for additional accuracy.
See, railfans are good for something. ;-)
Except they went ahead and eliminated Wall Street.
If Peter's map is accurate, the uptown Rector platform sits directly above the south end of the downtown Wall platform. Could the possible damage to Rector extend down to Wall? Trains are running through Wall, so if there is damage, I guess it's not severe.
Go to the Times site www.nytimes.com, scrol down on the right side, under Interactives, Maps: Subway Disruption. Once the Interactive window has popped up pull down the More Information Go to Maps Assessing the scene. That and other choices are great referance.
watching CBS this morning, Sen. Chuck Shumer says that the Tunnels recieved structural damage. it will be a while when they will refix or rebuild the tunnels and stations. DOWN WITH RELIGIOUS FUNDAMENTALISTS!!!!!!!!
Which tunnels? Do you mean the ones under the river or tunnels in general as in the ones under WTC?
The ones under the Tower site
any report as to how many PATH trains are missing ??
agin we do hope nobody was on them at all
i don't think the path trains are damaged
just that they can't be accessed to. i don't know how many are down there
any report as to how many PATH trains are missing ??
agin we do hope nobody was on them at all
Salaam - none were carrying passengers based on the information I have heard. The last WTC-NWK train was well past Grove Street when the buildings fell. If any PATH units are missing, they would have to been laid-up on either 5 track or 1 track, a common practice with PATH (I remember seeing them do this with Black Cars at the old Hudson Terminal and K-Cars and PA-class cars at the current station). Whether or not the Port Authority got any layups out of there before the building fell is unknown (at least by me) at this time.
wayne
The Bergen Record says one train was left behind deliberately. Another train in the station took all remaining crews out to NJ.
Perhaps as some sort of shelter for anybody happening to flee into the station? Hope it wasn't one of the old PA-1 or PA-2 cars.
PATH trains are usually mixed consists these days: PA-1, PA-2 and PA-4. Chances are that the train down there has some of each car type in it.
wayne
My suggestions as to what cars should be where for the rerouted services (the A classes aren't included in this. R62As would run on an R62 line for example. You can take guesses as to where As will run):
1-R62s from 238 and Livonia
2-normal
3-R62s from Lenox
4-Normal
5-Normal
6-Normal
7-Normal
S-Normal
A-Normal
B-Normal
C-If suspended, cars go to the J/M/Z, otherwise normal
D-Normal
E-R46s from suspended R
F-Normal
G-Normal
J-R32s from E, N
L-Normal
M-R32s from E, N
N-Suspended, non R68 cars to J/M/Z
Q LCL-Normal
Q EXP-R68s from N, R40s to J/M/Z
R-Suspended, R46s to E, R32s to J/M/Z
ALL S Trains-Normal except for Queensbridge, R32s to J/M/Z if necessary, R46s from R used instead.
Now, I moved everything on to the Eastern Division. Obviously, if too many cars are to be moved under this plan, the unaffected lines would revert to normal.
According to posts here, only R-62's can stop at South Ferry.
If the 5 is switched to the outer loop to serve SF, it will need to have an all-R-62 fleet (except for trains that only run rush hours).
If the 6 is extended at night (when the 5 doesn't run) to SF, it will need enough R-62's for night service. It may already have enough.
If this happens, expect to see lots of Redbirds on the 4. If there aren't enough R-62's on the 4 now to serve the 5's needs, more will have to come from the 1 and 3 -- but the 1 and 3 can't take Redbirds (the 1 and 3 settings on the rollsigns have been replaced), so they'll have to take R-142's off the 2 or 6, which would in turn accept Redbirds from the 5.
Incidentally, the A could give up its R-38's if necessary.
(As in your post, A suffixes are omitted. Insert where appropriate.)
NOT TRUE!
Redbirds can make a station Stop at South Ferry. Sometimes there have been No.2+5 trains that had stopped at South Ferry with Redbirds and everything worked as designed.
I thought they could; similar cars (R17/21/22) have done so in the past.
Next question (AND I KNOW THAT I SHOULD KNOW THIS) can a southbound #5 leave Bowling-Green, go through the loop on the OUTSIDE track and then return to Bowling-Green or MUST they use the inner platform, the one with the unconventional door-placement scheme.
wayne
Yes. The No. 6 train ran nights to South Ferry in the late 1970s and used that exact same route. What you can't do it get from the Rector St. station on the 1/9 to the inner loop platform at SF, or from the inner loop to the uptown Rector platform.
The No.5 Train can come from Bowling Green and stop at South Ferry and return to Bowling Green.
This is the set up.
Before entering South Ferry you have a Switch from LeX to The No.1/9 Line. Then as you leave South Ferry a Switch from the No.1 Line to Lex.
As far as the service plans for the No.5 Line I have no clue.
The only plan on the table for Monday Morning is if possable
No.1 Line: 242 Street Local to New Lots Ave
Nights 242 Street Local to Chambers Street
No.2 Line: E 241 Street Local to Flatbush (Maybe EXP to Times SQ)
No.3 Line: 148 Street Express to 34 Street
Really? The plan I have for Monday morning (which was official as of Saturday afternoon) differs from the one presented.
On what day and at what time was the plan described made official?
David
Relax. I think most of what is said here is merely speculation. Those like yourself working in the offices of TA Headquarters know what the real deal is. Why don't you tell us about the official plan?
-Stef
The plans are probably differing because one assumes the 2 & 3 will run normally. After while, yes, but the flooding at Park Pl. will have to be drained first. So tomorrow, the 2 & 3 should still be cutting back in Manhattan, while the 5 covers Brooklyn.
I didn't want to release details I had about the official plan because, as someone ("Stef" himself, I think) said, everything's subject to change. Therefore, it was entirely possible that what "Stef" had received superseded my information. I was just trying to find out whether or not that was the case.
However, the plan has now been posted on the MTA website, and a quick review indicates that it's the same as what I had received the day before. If (as "Eric B." says below) the area of the Chambers Street IRT station is clear, #2 and #3 service will run to and from Brooklyn on Monday.
David
Well, you know better than me.
But it's been reported here many times that the gap fillers at South Ferry were adjusted when the R-62A's came on the scene and no longer work properly on any car type with different door spacing. When in past GO's (one was supposed to be this weekend, but I assume it was suspended or substantially modified) the 5 was supposed to run along the 1 from Chambers to South Ferry (and the announcement to the public certainly implied it would stop at SF), the train instead ran nonstop (either light or with passengers) from Chambers to Bowling Green.
The Union Square gap fillers work with all car types. I wonder why the South Ferry ones are so picky.
The issue if I understand some posts here correctly is the stop marker. If an redbird stops at South Ferry, they just have to move the stop marker.
I can believe that. Why aren't there multiple stop markers there, like at Flatbush Avenue?
I doubt an R-142 could stop at South Ferry, since the doors are spaced differently in cars 1, 5, 6, and 10 than in cars 2, 3, 4, 7, 8, and 9.
I'd be very surprised to hear that Redbirds can't stop at South Ferry- I remember very clearly catching a #2 Redbird at Rector Street (because of emergency re-routes)Northbound more than once in 1998, during which time I rode the line to Van Cortlandt almost every day.
Wouldnt' this train have had to stop at South Ferry? it wasn't empty when it pulled into Rector.
BTW, I'd switch back to the #1/9 at 96th.
Not to worry, Redbirds* and their ancestors stopped at South Ferry long before the first R62A poked its shiny nose around the loop.
wayne
* R26/R28/R29/R33/R36.
When this issue came up a few months ago, seemingly everyone on the board was sure that the gap fillers had been moved when the R-62A's arrived on the 1 and that now they'd work with nothing but the R-62A's.
I was skeptical, but it seemed like these people knew what they were talking about, so I accepted it.
Now everyone else seems to have changed their minds and, once again, I'm standing on my own!
If past GO's are any indication, that 2 came from Brooklyn via Joralemon, reversed at Wall, and came back up through the South Ferry loop. Current practice is for such trains to run nonstop from Bowling Green (or Wall?) to Chambers, but that may have changed. In any case, that might explain where the other passengers had come from.
R-62As on the 1 will most likely run out of 240 St and Livonia.
Regarding the N and R situation, I'd expect all 75 footers to be removed off those lines to be served by the J and Z. 60 footers are served by the J and Z due to the limitations of the Eastern Division. 8 Car trains are a must on those lines.
I see it this way: The Q gets R-46s from the R, while R40s go to the J and M. The W could have an increased R-68/R-68A presence from misplaced sets normally assigned to the N. R-32s may be split between the M and W lines, which were formerly assigned to the N.
An R40 Slant can also pop up on the W.
-Stef
They're won't be a Z.
Apparently the 2&3 have been cleared to be reopened for service. Also Chambers St has/will be closed??
It was reported that Chambers St and Park Pl on the 2&3, Chambers St on the A and Wall St on the 4&5 are being bypassed.
Interesting that the 1 will be running express and the 2&3 are local.
Is there any other easy way to cross the 1 over?
Unfortunately, no. I just looked at the track maps here and noticed that the only way for local trains to reverse at 14th Street is from the southbound express tracks. There's no way for southbound local trains to reach the northbound express track at 14th. Same thing at 34th Street. So the only thing to do cross them at 96th Street. Unless they wanted to terminate the 2 and 3 trains at Penn Station and extend the 1 train to Brooklyn. That would however require the 5 train to operate to Flatbush during non-rush hours or run the 4 to New Lots 24/7, depending on where the 1 terminates.
This could have been handled in the fashion of a recent weekend GO: 1 local to Chambers, then to New Lots; 2 express to Chambers, then to Flatbush; 3 express to 42nd. There's an extra track between 42nd and 34th where the 3 can turn without interfering with the 2.
But that's not being done, for whatever reason.
They probably decided that with the C out of service, they needed to keep the three lines running on Broadway south of 96th St. to avoid really overcrowding all the West Side routes. Swapping the 1 with the 2/3 at 96th will cause delays, but the number of trains running local service on the Upper West Side (the B/2/3) will be the same as usual when the 1/B/C provide local service to the area.
True. Total service will increase, actually; combined service on the 2 and 3 is better than combined service on the 1 and C. I'm personally quite happy, as my apartment building is directly above a local 2/3 station (although the nearest entrance is two blocks away, or one rush hours).
But Broadway and CPW are a good ten minutes or more apart in places; a longer wait followed by a transfer at 59th is probably preferable to CPW residents. I still think running the A local would have been smarter.
From the map, it looks like the weekend A will be local after all. Good -- otherwise, CPW riders would have to wait for the first scheduled A local of the night to get out of the station at all!
I would guess if your living at Columbus or a little to the west of there between 72nd and 96th, you'll still walk over to CPW for the subway, even if your options are now reduced by 50 percent. But some people in the area may decide to walk west and take the Broadway line due to the increased service, once the new service patterns become familiar.
The reason that is not being done is called MONEY! Crews out of Lenox that have jobs paying around 9 1/2 hrs. would make at the most 5 trips to Times Sq., total running time with relay included about 1 hr. 5 hrs. work 9 1/2 hrs. pay.
Keep looking at the MTA website. Changes to West Side IRT service are coming (I won't elaborate -- they'll become evident soon enough).
David
Even if it's structurally sound (which it probably is) Park Place station wouldn't serve much purpose if it can't link up with the two Chambers Street (WTC and H&M) stations. The Chambers Street IRT station is within walking distance.
wayne
But Chambers Street is also closed.
I've used Park Place on many an occasion to reach City Hall Park. The "south" exit is just across the street. It's not just a connection to the A/C/E.
Absolutely right. I've also deliberately exited at Park Place rather than Chambers many times, so as to reach Broadway and/or City Hall.
In 1992 I bought a printer at J&R and took it home on the subway. Guess which station I used. (I even had my own seat, although it slid around a bit and really annoyed the passengers standing around me.)
LOL- I can picture that- I took a computer from J&R home to Staten Island on the express bus before they had the coach-style busses they use now.
I parked myself in the front seats (which faced sideways)- on the coaches, all seats face front, so this wouldn't have been an option.
It was still very awkward.
Don't be too sure of that, Channel 2 News just announced a few minutes ago that tomorrow the 2 and 3 are not going below Penn Station and that 4 will fill in for the 3 and the 5 will fill in for the 2 in Brooklyn. They also announced that the 1 will end at 14th, but if they're saying that the 2 and 3 are ending at Penn, then the 1 will have to run local. They also said they're going to "test" the 2 and 3 tomorrow to see if they can go to Brooklyn. But I didn't see these new changes on the MTA's website, even after reloading it, so I don't know exactly what's in store for tomorrow.
Rueter said on CNBC this afternoon that the 2 & 3 test thru Park Place was just successfully compeleted. TV has been scrweing up all day, like saying the E will got to Broad Street, and the J will go to Broadway.
They really must be scrwing up. How would the E get to Broad Street? Well they have been getting a lot of information and things keep changing fast. It's pretty easy to screw up a whole host of subway changes.
Rueter said on CNBC this afternoon that the 2 & 3 test thru Park Place was just successfully compeleted. TV has been scrweing up all day, like saying the E will got to Broad Street, and the J will go to Broadway.
According to the MTA website the 2 and 3 will run through to Brooklyn.
I would have a tendency to believe the MTA.
The webiste contradicts self on the W -- it says "operates all times to Manh. & Queens ", then it says, nights it is split - Ditmars to 34th and Stilwell to 36th.
Not a contradiction. The north segment operates between Manhattan and Queens.
I read it to mean - operates all times from Bklyn to Manh & Queens -- as opposed to last week when it shut down at night.
Normal service on the w during midnights is Stillwell to 36 St OPTO. Since it's filling in for the N in astoria, Transit is forced to run something there on the midnights as well.
The 2 and 3 were up and running to Brooklyn as of 1545 hours this afternoon.
-Stef
Well I'm glad the No.1 Line SUPT did not get her way. What the TA has on the website will be the plan for tomorrow and the week.
No.1 Line 242 Street to 14 Street (Express)
No.2+3 Line to Brooklyn (96 Street to Chambers Local)
Also the No.1 will run Express at Night. I left 14 Street as a Express well after Midnight. The No.2 will be the ONLY local train at night.
Remember
1 Trains are EXPRESS
2+3 Trains are LOCAL
You tell'em Dave
Dont worry, IDK how it will sit with the 2 and 3 crews. Im sure the Brooklyn passengers will complain as well.
I know the No.2+3 Train Crews and rider are already having a fit over it.
So let them have a fit. The difference in running time is about 8 minutes between Chambers and 96 St. If they can't deal they can always change at 14 St and then again at 96 St
No, why should they have to have a fit? The 2 is the longest IRT line without making the 7th Avenue local stops at 49 stops. Add in the 12 7th Avenue local stops during late nights, and that makes 61 stops. Now they want to do that 24/7? I can understand crews having a fit over that!
Assuming nothing goes wrong between Chambers and 96th, then maybe it's an 8-minute difference between express and local. But what about all the people who hold or block doors and delay the trains? That happens all too often. And also you now have express and local trains having to cross in front of each other. That's defintely going to add more time. I figure it's more like a 15-minute difference. Pray nobody pulls the brake or a door gets stuck, cause then it will be longer. That might why be riders are complaining.
I understand fully that there have to be subway diversions because of the destruction of the Courtlandt/WTC stop on the 1. We all have to make some sacrifices. The TA decided to make the 2 and 3 local and run the 1 express to 14th Street. I guess they realize doing that might cause a lot of delays at 96th Street cause now I'm hearing they're going to again change the 7th Avenue service plan for Thursday. But this time, put plenty of thought into the new plan. They're going to run the 1 to Brooklyn. Yes that's going to be a lot more stops for the 1. But it will actually be fewer stops than a 2 local train.
Here's a compromise:
1. Run the 1 local in Manhattan to Flatbush Avenue. That's 53 stops, just four more than the 2 express (although 15 stops more than when the 1 ran to South Ferry).
2. Run the 2 express in Manhattan to 14th Street. Don't make a long line even longer if it's not necessary, and in this case, it's not. Some of the unused 2 line trains can go to the 1 if needed.
3. Run the 3 local in Manhattan to New Lots Avenue. It's a short line above 96th Street and is less crowded than the 2. Don't cut the 3 at Times Square. What's the point in making a short line shorter? And with the 4 still operating to Brooklyn 24/7, they don't need to replace the 3 with the 1. But the 1 can easily replace the 2 in Brooklyn because both lines run 24/7 and the 5 only runs in Brooklyn during rush hours.
It's not a perfect solution, but it might minimize the complaining from riders and train crews.
I like that idea.
Thanks. I'm glad you like it. For a second I thought I was gonna get ostracized on this board and be called "selfish" and "only looking out for my line." But having ridden the 2 train from the northern Bronx my whole life. I remember the grafitti trains very well (they were everywhere I know). Back then, I couldn't tell the difference between the different subway car classes because of all the grafitti. I was also a little kid back then. But then as now, it always seemed like a very long ride to Manhattan. With closely-spaced stops in the Bronx, plenty of curves and timers, it's not a fast run. But it is very heavily-used line.
The 3 on the other hand, being a much shorter line at it northern end is less crowded. It also doesn't run at night. And that's why I can't understand why they want to keep the 3 express and force the already-overburdened 2 onto the local tracks 24/7. Is there any reason why the 1 can't go to Flatbush Avenue? Is late-night 4 service to New Lots not enough? Is having just the 1 south of 14th Street not enough during late nights? I'll be very surprised if the answer is yes to any of these questions. But I would like to know if there's someone at the TA I can suggest my idea to. They may laugh it off, thinking I don't know anything about running a subway, but it never hurts to ask.
>"only looking out for my line."
You ain't alone there, Pal! :)
I really do like your idea that would even thing out.
Right Now 14 Street is going to be a terminal for the No.1 Line at night and ofcause the No.3 Line during the day.
Your plan makes sence and let me see if I have this right
----------------------------------------------------------------
YOUR Plan
No.1 Line: 242 Street to Flatbush (Local) All Times
Running time: 1 HR 21Min
No.2 Line: 241 Street to 14 Street (Express) All Times
Running time: 53 Minutes
No.3 Line: 148 Street to New Lots Normal Exept Local from 96 to Chambers 1 HR 13 Minutes
----------------------------------------------------------------
I like it and maybe who knows if the right person looks at it then maybe it will happen
The TA's Plan
Since everyone already knows I'll just put the running times up
No.1 Line: 242 St to NL 1 HR 27 Minutes
242 St to 14 43 Minutes (Nights)
No.2 Line 241 Local Flatbush 1 HR 35 Minutes
No.3 Line 148 to 14 Street 25 Minutes
That's correct. And who knows, with IRT service to South Ferry not expected to be back in service for a long time, the TA may tweak its plans. Who knows, they might get flooded with complaints from 2 train crews and riders and may have to change things. But the TA's current 7th Avenue plan is better than what they had on Monday and Tuesday, when the 2 and 3 were local to Brooklyn and the 1 was express to 14th Street and every train crossing in front of each other at 96th Street.
. This plan is better then the one before this way trains are not crossing in front of one another.
Tomorrow will be my first day with the New service plans. Even as an Extra I could never remember the names of the stops between Frankin Street and New Lots.
I'm going to have to study the map for Homework. Now I feel like I'm in High school again.
>Some of the unused 2 line trains
> can go to the 1 if needed.
Redbirds. Low Ceiling.
1 can dream....
Oh? I thought that problem was fixed eons ago?
-Stef
Oy, low ceilings still exist north of 96 as per
last post I recall some meses ago... Hmm.
Ive seen Redbirds along the 1 line going to their final resting place at 207St Yard.
Talk about a switcheroo.
Shades of the IRT until the late 50s with the switches at 96th St
Well just when everyone will exept these changes starting Thursday there will be another change to confuse everyone.
No.1 Line: 242 Street Local to New Lots Ave
No.3 Line: 148 Street Express to 14 Street
So Pelham Bay Dave was right and the No.1 Line supt got her way.
I will glad if I'm wrong on this one.
The crews on the 1 are going to get their proverbial asses kicked.
Two trips local to New Lots with heavy crowds on the majority of the line. Yikes!
My EYES are getting their proverbial a$$es kicked
just FOLLOWING the line on the map.... WoW!
Crowds on 7th Avenue will be reduced somewhat with the 2 picking up some of the slack.
(I've been offline for two days for Rosh Hashanah. One of the last posts I read Monday afternoon indicated that changes of some sort would be taking place soon. I was curious as to the new arrangement, and in particular I was wondering if the local tracks would still have two services. Well, on my way home from shul tonight, as I walked by the entrance to the 86th Street station, I heard the unmistakable sound of a Redbird's brakes. I'm happy.)
They did it for 40 years before when the 1 ran from New Lots to 242
>They did it for 40 years before
>when the 1 ran from New Lots to 242
Which years were/was this?
From the opening of the New Lots extension (1918?) until 1956, I believe.
That is about right. But remember there was 2 1 Trains. The Express to 242nd and the Local from SF to 137th. The 2 Was Express from Flatbush to 180th and the 3 local from SF to 145th and Lenox
10-Q folks.
I'm finally back up after our internet access was shut down for the last few days due to a virus.
Both West Side legs had express and local service up until approximately 1959. When the R-21/22s began arriving, all trains branching off to Lenox Ave. became expresses and all trains continuing due north on Broadway became locals.
what about the 2 my home line.express again
what about the 2 my home line.express again. if there going to do that just run 3 to 135 street
Well I don't know much about the No.2 Line but the Rumor is Local from 96 Street to Flatbush.
Why not continue running the 3 to New Lots and send the 1 to Flatbush? Why not keep the 2 express up to 14th Street and turn it back to the Bronx from there. I can't understand why everybody wants the 2 to be local. The 2 was already the longest IRT line without the local stops when they began making it local at night and now they want to make it that way 24/7? Why?
Send the 1 to Flatbush and keep the 3 where it is. The 3 doesn't have a long Bronx run like the 2 does. They can afford to run the 3 local, it makes only two stops before joining with the 2. The 2 should stay express, considering how long its 20-stop run in the Bronx takes.
According to Tony Mirabella the 2 has a terrible
and distant (40-45 minute) headway during rush hours..
..putting the 2 on LOCAL tracks in Manhattan
just isn't gonna help their headways one bit.
1 does JUST FINE on headways without the extra load..
(not to mention the 1 has the 9 trains which can
easily double as 1 trains) to keep our headways
at 3-6 mins.
Meanwhile the 3 tends to be a somewhat extinct specie
(known to hibernate nights) and CANNOT possibly do all
the EXPRESS work without the assisting 2 EXP.
Keep the 2 'Going Your Way' as an EXP.
Logic, My Dear O'Leary.
Hey, I'm getting a lot of positive responses on this. Well, I don't think the 2 has headways that bad, but I will say that the reason it takes so long for me to get to Manhattan is from waiting so long at my station at Burke Avenue in the Bronx. But it does run more frequently than the 3, at least whenever I'm riding the subway that seems to be the case.
Originally, I thought that they could run the 1 and 9 (yes, keep the 9) to Brooklyn and retain skip-stop service above 137th. The 1 and 9 would part company at Franklin Av with the 1 going to New Lots and the 9 going to Flatbush. The 2 and 3 would both end at Penn Station. But that would require the 5 running to Flatbush 24/7. It also means there would not be enough service at Flatbush and New Lots. And they need to have enough service on both Brooklyn IRT branches. The 1 and 9 are considered one line even though they appear on the maps as two lines. Same thing for the circle and diamond Q's and the J and Z (the Z which is currently in hibernation). That why they need to have either the 2 or 3 running local with the 1. Like I said before, I prefer they keep the 2 express and make the 3 local, but the TA did it the other way around. But one of the 7th Avenue expresses had to become local to keep Brooklyn IRT close to what it was before last Tuesday.
Can someone explain why the IND and N/Q/R lines are giving up their 60-footers to the J?
Andrew
Because they can not run 75-footers on the Eastern Division Lines!
The station platforms are not long enough and some of the curves are too tight.
wayne
I understand that. But the J has been running R40s and R42s perfectly well for this long, AFAIK. Is there some reason why (related to Tuesday's tragedy) they must have R38's and R32s from other lines now?
Andrew
Because the J and M will be running longer lines than they presently do and they need enough cars to provide decent headway between trains. If you significantly extend a subway line, but keep the same number of subway cars, you end up with a longer headway between trains. And since the J and M trains will see sharply increased ridership, they will need to have better headways than they currently do. Therefore they will need additional cars. With the C, N and R lines suspended, 60-foot cars will be freed up for service. The E will probably get the R's R46s freeing up the E's R32s. R32s from the C and N will also be freed up to provide the required cars that will now be needed for the J and M.
Thank you.
:-) Andrew
I still think the N's R-32's and R-40's will be nearly sufficient.
Right now, the J has 152 cars and the M has 144 cars. The N has 160 60-foot cars, enough for quite a bit of route lengthening.
If more is needed, it will probably come from Jamaica. The R is assigned 216 R-46's (equivalent to 270 60-footers); the E is assigned 220 R-32's. Send a few R-32's over to the J or M, if necessary (or send R-32's to the Q, which will run into Jamaica territory, freeing up R-40's for the J or M); replace with R-46's from the R.
Cover the Q's extension with the rest of the R's R-46's. Cover the E's extension with the C's R-32's and R-38's. Save a few more cars for the W, which will take a few minutes longer since it's now running local in Manhattan and Queens.
This is a service cut. There should be no problem finding cars.
Let me throw my two cents in on A division car assignments. Last week, I noticed that most of the cars holding down the cut-down #2 an #6 assignments were of the R-142 orders, some of which had just come back from 207th. Will it be the case starting tomorrow (if the Park Pl. station is still unsafe for trains rolling through) that some more cars will come back from 207 to hold down the #2 while its remaining R-33s go over to the #5 for its runs to Flatbush?
According to the Jamaica Shop Car Desk, R-46s are being moved from the R to the E line. The R-32s from the E will be moved to the Q (still out of Jamaica) so there will be R-32s on the Brighton Line this week. It looks like the E will have R-32s, R-38s and R-46 this week.
Does this mean that some E trains and crews will be based out of 207th Street?
No. It means some E trains/crews are out of Pitkin/Euclid like the old days.
R-32s on the Q again? Cool....
Even cooler would be the prospect of Slants on the "J".
Maybe they've sent ALL the Slants to the "L" and are using the displaced R40M/R42 on the "J" and "M".
wayne
Perhaps a ride on a J out to Brooklyn through Nassau St. should also be on our agenda. I never did ride on a through QJ train in the olden days.
Besides the R40M/42,what other types of trains are being run on the J and M LINES?
The J and M lines currently (as of Monday 9/17/01) feature R-40, R-40M, and R-42 cars.
David
R40 basicaly running on the M,right?
Right. M mostly R-40, J mostly R-40M/R-42.
David
I don't know if they're getting R32s (the R38s operate out of Pitkin Yard and the "E" will be using some of them) but they certainly will need more trainsets than what they currently have to run substitute "N" and "R" service. Hence the need for concentration of the R40s on the "J" and "M". The Slant Q won't be a Slant any more, probably will run whatever the "N" ran - either R68s or R32s.
Let's wait for the road reports tomorrow to let us know what they're actually running. I'm curious as to where all the R46 cars from the "R" are headed.
wayne
Who is minding the West End??? Where's the "W"?
The "W" is still operating the West End,But it has been downgraded to running local between Astoria and Coney Island.
The W is local in Manhattan, but it is still express in Brooklyn.
Hi all,
I'd like to know if there will be short or long term subway service changes because of WTC? I'd like to update the map today if possible. Please response to: adler@nycsubwa.org or adler1969@aol.com and a subject is required: "WTC/Subway" because I don't have time to check each message that contains virus, any other subjects will be deleted without reading it!
Thank you for your time in respoining my request to update our site's online subway map. Dave or I will let you know when an update map is posted here.
Michael Adler
adler@nycsubway.org
Noone knows what the final will be except that it appears that all service south of Chambers on 1/9 and between Broadway/Canal to Whitehall via tunnel will be out until major repairs are made. Possibly they might be able bring to trains into City Hall BMT (Lower Level?) from the North. Also WTC station on the E is out.
Hi, everyone. How's everyone doing? I just called 330-1234 to ask if the 5 train is running South of 180th tomorrow morning. I was told no. On the TA website, they say it's running to Flatbush, skipping Wall Street. I tend to believe the website. I hope so, because Thursday we had to change for a 2 at 180th. Of course, it was running on its usual 45-50 minute rush hour schedule, and things were uncomfortable. Disaster or not, the 2 is the worst subway line in the country.
Tony
There's a lot of info changing, and not all the sites change instantly.
According to a prior post on subtalk, this one, the 5's are stopping at 180th, and only the 4's are going to handle things south of that (Lexington Avenue, Brooklyn).
However, since the map in question was last updated Sept 14 (Friday) it may or may not be the newest data.
Thid "idiot" can only report what he/she is told. The reason is quite simple: the 5 is running from Dyre Ave. to E.180th St. to "further notice". So until further notice is rescinded, as far as the customer service rep is concerned, the 5 is running to E. 180th St. until told otherwise. So don't blame him/her if the service returns to some semblance of regularness on Monday, In an emergency situation such as this, things change by the minute, tomorrow is a long time away.
And the left hand never knows what the right hand is doing.
You're right that it is not the fault of the people who are stuck with the job of speaking with the public. It's the boobs higher up who haven't set up an adequate system for getting updates to those in the trenches.
Since National Airport is closed indefinitely, is the Metro still stopping at that station? If so, who is using it?
No Metro trains are stopping at either National Airport or Pentagon stations.
Yes and IDK.
They were simply passing through the station without stopping. Now the station is open although National Airport is closed to aircraft arrivals/departures. Also trains are now stopping at The Pentagon but, passengers wish to exit the system there is required to have the "credentials".
Wayne
G'mar hasima tova...
May we enjoy the blessings of a new year as we stand together before the ultimate judge.
---Dave
What do you mean by that?
#951 Amtrak AEM-7
Thank you. I extend similar greetings to you and everyone else who understands this thread. (For those who don't: the Jewish new year, Rosh Hashana, begins Monday night.)
Thank you! Shana Tova to you and yours as well. But we have to remember those of all faiths who perished in the wreckage of the World Trade Center and the Pentagon just five days ago. We also need to pray that God will deliver the demon that was behind those attacks and all of his followers, so that we may exact justice against them.
Good Yontif from Chicago.
Same 2 u.
And the same to you and yours... may we all know peace in the coming year.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
> Editor of the Editorial Page
> The Richmond Times-Dispatch
> Richmond, Virginia
>
> Sunday September 16, 2001
>
> Sir,
>
> Among the collateral damage the terrorist attack has visited upon
> America is the near collapse of our airline industry. At the same time,
> very little is being said about the job that Amtrak and Greyhound have
> quietly done, and continue to do, during this crisis.
>
> Every bus and every piece of equipment that will roll is being pressed
> into service. Thank God for the fact that Congress has not (so far)
> listened to penny-wise but pound foolish critics who would otherwise
> have dismantled both because they lose money. While America's airlines
> have been forcibly idled, and now that more people than ever before are
> afraid to fly, our national system of passenger trains and intercity
> buses has prevailed, keeping Americans on the move, albeit at a slower,
> less familiar pace--even though, as their critics point out, [like the
> airlines, as we are now learning,] they too are not turning a profit.
>
> People who have opined in favor of maintaining that national rail
> passenger system, even if it is necessary for us as a country to
> subsidize it and intercity busses, would now seem vindicated, for as a
> part of the government's $40-billion emergency package, $2.5-billion is
> earmarked as an outright "gift" to the airline industry to keep them in
> business. There is also a guarantee for $15-billion in government loans
> for the nation's air carriers.
>
> For Midway Airlines, it's already too late; they quit the business
> Wednesday following the highjackings, so tenuous was their position. And
> a couple others are rumored to be prepared to do the same. All are
> laying off employees and drastically axing flights.
>
> It would absurd to suggest that the country can exists without air
> service. Now, what about Amtrak? Greyhound?
>
> Doug Riddell
>
NY1 quoting MTA sources reported that N/R tunnel could take weeks, 1 tunnel years.
Arti
They could build a NEW (1) South Ferry (9) tunnel in "years".
Maybe that's the case, also remember it would take months before the site is cleared.
Arti
You can build something new much faster than rebuilding something old -- no need to stop work every few hours to let service through.
But the bureaucratic BS for something new is much greater -- it takes years.
The new 1/9 line will be old for bureaucratic purposes, but new for construction purposes. No problem.
The former path of Greenwich St. through the WTC property is probably quite deep in debris, and to the north, east and south are weakened buildings. All of this will have to be removed and stabilized before the process of repairing or rebuilding the subway can start. It will have to take time. The N,R tunnel is probably under some debris but may be most affected by stuff that went in through the entrances.
"The N,R tunnel is probably under some debris but may be most affected by stuff that went in through the entrances"
That's the unclear part of all this. Is the debris chunks of concrete or that white dust and building parts that rained down from the WTC towers. If it's concrete chunks, then the tunnel's ceiling may need some extensive patching.
Bill "Newkirk"
Here is what I would do:
Have all 1/9 trains terminate at 34th Street express platform
2 and 3 trains local from 42nd Street to Chambers (Arrives at 34th Street local platform)
To much of a bottleneck as exp and lcl would share each others path.
Arti
Just run the 1 through to New Lots, as planned, to avoid unnecessary crossing of paths at 42nd. Terminate the 3 at 42nd; it's already on the express track.
David, I am sure you would be happy to make all 56 station stops (one way) in the whole 85 minutes we are supposed to do it in. In reality it takes about 95 minutes, that comes out to 3 hours 10 minutes for one trip. Multiply that by 2, add in the 15 min. to read bulletins and other business and you get 6 hours 35 min. According to rules you have be on your train 2 min. before departure (that's 8 min.) We are now up to 6 hours 43min. out of eight leaving 1 hour and 17 min. "recovery/lunch time". It my sound like alot but if you get 20 min. at New Lots during each trip that gives you a total of 37 min. to have lunch.
So split the line in two from the crew's standpoint: have one crew operate between 242nd and (say) Fulton and a different crew operate between Fulton and New Lots. Only the most perceptive passengers would even notice, by the change in the C/R's voice.
(It took me about 30 seconds to figure that out.)
The passengers are the paying customers. Labor issues -- especially ones that can be so easily solved -- are no reason to confuse or delay passengers as all trains cross paths at 96th.
I'm sure you would not mind being on a train during rush hour when I pull into Fulton dump it gather my belongings and then have another T/O board charge up and get him/herself situated then proceed to New Lots or 242.
The main issue is fatigue which you as a passenger should be concerned with.
Okay, maybe Fulton is a bad choice due to its crowds and its narrow island platform. How about Clark, Borough Hall, or Hoyt?
How is fatigue an issue? You finish your run when you arrive at (say) Clark. As far as you're concerned, you're in service from 242 to Clark and that's it. You take a break as you would at any other terminal.
I do see how things could get messy if your train is severely behind schedule -- the train you need to take out of Clark might arrive before you do.
But it looks like the 1 is running to New Lots now, presumably without a midpoint quasi-terminal. Sorry.
According to the people in the ivory tower it only takes 85 min. to get from 242-New Lots. Now lets talk reality. The average today was 95 min. and that was without school kids and some of the workforce who were off for the Jewish Holidays. The TA has turned 1&4 tracks into conga lines with all trains in service. (Van Cortlandt is running 32 trains with 6 more coming from New Lots just for the A.M. rush)
All at 242 are in agreement (T/O's, C/R's and T/D's) that the current schedule will not work. If trains are averaging 10 min. lateness without any breakdowns it will be fun to see what happens with the first BIE. The crews are coming in looking like they just worked 24 hrs. instead of 8 and that is what I mean by fatigue.
As far as having a midpoint terminal with all those trains in service trains would be backed up for half of Manhattan.
It seems like your objections would be lifted if the guys who work out the schedules made the necessary corrections.
Proper recovery time is a must. I spoke with several other T/O's who had 10-12 minutes down time at New Lots this was done so that the T/D's could get the crews back in place.
On my first trip I made it to New Lots Ave 28 Minutes Late. A new all time late record for me with no train, nor signal problems. It was all do to congestion Between 103 St and 96 Street, 28 Street to Chambers and Junus to New Lots. That about 1HR 55 Mins one way.
Now coming back Uptown I left 4 Behind and made it to 242 Street 25 Minutes Late.
That one trip seemed like 3 trips in one.
Work on the 1/9 south of Chambers probably couldn't even begin until the end of the year, and as I said in another thread, there're no point in building anything permanent at Cortlandt Street right now, because you don't know how the layout of the new WTC site will work with that subway station.
But once the site is cleared, there will be no buildings and no operating utilties in the area, which means that they can just open cut the tunnel, dig out the debris and make needed repairs without having to place boards above the openings. That should allow for a faster-than-normal project competion time, though it may be a quick-and-dirty project that leaves Cortlandt (and possibly Rector) closed, but allows 1/9 trains to again get through to serve South Ferry.
I spoke last night to a TSS on the J line and specifically asked about the N/R line.
He told me severe damge at Cortlandt and Rector- structural damage. He also told me they are checking the montague Street (BMT river tunnel). he told me they may have to seal the tube(for now) for fears of river coming in and flooding the tube.
What could have possibly gone wrong in the Montague tunnel? It's quite far from the WTC site.
And if it is sealed, there go all the plans for extended J and M service to southern Brooklyn.
Of course, the TSS gave me the info he had. Right now, the key word in Transit is change is frequent. Maybe they found out the Montague tube is safe. I am sure, that even during the next few weeks, service can be changed often.
To All Subtalkers--please be patient with us. Some changes are beyond our control. If Police close an area we must comply.
Also- watch your possesions and do not leave them unattended. The system is on very high security and police might be called for unattanded bags as "suspicious p[ackage." Stations has also been announcing via in booth intercom over the EBCS that we must show our pass, badge and photo ID to any police officer upon request. These items must also be on our person any time we are on anmy facilklity of the MTA system. In Penn Station the PA announcer is making airport style annoucements from "The Amtrak Police" about watching your bags, dont leave bags unattended, etc. Penn is also very heavily covered by MTA, LIRR,Amtrak and NYPD Police officers.
If you have any problems dont jump! Police are enforcing subway rules with almost no leeway and tickets are issued very frequently. When we change shifts police even ask us for our passes. If there is a uniformed officer and we allow someone in for free(ie card just used) they will stop the person. We have taken to alerting the officer with "They are OK. I let him in- his card is unlimited and was just used" or similar lines. I was at one station today and let a plain clothes officer in,(The officer showed their badge and ID.) The uniformed officer asked their colleague for their badge.
Please be alert in the system at all times. If you see suspicious activity report to the nearest booth and tell the S/A this is an emergency and to call police. Give as much detail as you know. If the booth is far away such as 168 on the 1, call 9-1-1 from a pay phone or use a talk back box to speak with the booth. If the booth does not answer look for a TV camera near the box and wave franctically at the camera and try again. You can also find any employee in the station such as A CTA, T/O, C/R, Tower, etc and ask them to make your report. Never try to clear a station on your own--the panic will be worse than the problem.
Thank you for the advice.
I would recommend leaving extra travel time whenever time of arrival is at all important. I hope employers will be understanding of lateness due to unanticipated subway service changes or outages.
And remember that the person who informs you of a service outage is not personally responsible for the outage. Thank him for the information and find some other way to reach your destination. Fortunately, there is a fair degree of redundancy in the subway system.
I hope S/A's will be authorized to issue block tickets to passengers who choose to leave the system to get past an outage (by walking to a nearby station on another line, walking across the Manhattan Bridge, or what have you) rather than waiting it out or trying to use only official transfer points.
I agree with you, but have to abide by official policies.
Block tickets vs G.O. Tickets:
Block tickets can be used at any station, bus (local including privates)for the same day or the next two days. It is G.O. tickets that have restrictions to specified points- ie shuttle bus from station 1 then get off the bus at station 5 to get to the end of the line.
G.O.Tickets, if authorized can also be used for approved transfers between sides if there is no crossover.
The official rule is "Block tickets can be issued, either at the S.A's disxcreptiion or by directions from supervision, if there is no service in ANY direction at the station or station complex. Let's say you are at Times Square N/R and want to go the 57th and 7th. No Block ticket since the A is available as is the IRT. Of course, if supervision authorizes or instructs us to do so then we could issue the block ticket.
What we can and usually do is give a disabled or senior citizen ticket which allows a free ride and gives good will.
I'm not asking you to break the rules -- I said that I hope S/A's are authorized to distribute block tickets.
How does a senior citizen ticket help? Am I -- an able-bodied 27-year-old -- permitted to use a senior citizen ticket? (Doesn't that create a problem with senior citizens giving away or selling their return tickets?) And are you really authorized to give out senior citizen tickets to just anyone despite all the restrictions placed on when you may distribute block tickets?
Do S/A's have discretion to allow passengers to enter for free? Say service over the Manhattan Bridge and through Montague has been suddenly cut off, and I'm at Court. The IRT is a mob scene; I estimate it'll take me close to an hour just to get onto a train, and my ultimate destination is on the BMT anyway. So I leave the station to walk to Canal. The Court S/A wasn't authorized to give me a block ticket. Would the Canal S/A have the authority to listen to my story and let me in if he thinks it would be appropriate or would I be stuck having to pay an extra fare or walk the rest of the way?
We have little discreption for letting customers in for free. Sorry :-(
Thanks for the tip.
That TSS doesn't know what he's talking about.
David
Well if Montague can't be used than the J and M plan to Brooklyn is shot.
Hey Todd, Gerry, and co.-
I haven't heard that Logan opened yet. What does this mean? Is TF Green and Manchester Airport handling more passengers?
Jeremy
Logan opened at 5am Saturday morning. Flights are limited by the airlines' operations.
All other NE airports are also operating at some level. Worcester and Logan have both seen service interruptions due to security concerns.
Gerry
Only closed airport is Reagan National (DCA) which may never open again.
Due to this, AMTRAK ridership was expected to GREATLY INCREASE, for the passengers to get to their destinations cross-country.
The article was posted in NEWSWIRE at the website Trains.com NewsWire .
How long would it take for City Hall lower level to be opened for passenger service if service to the south is cut of for an extended period?
Chances are Canal St would be the last stop on the local. But trains would be turned at City Hall Lower. People could go to City Hall Upper. But there would be alot of confusion regarding transfers to other trains.
Right now there is only one stairway to Lower City Hall. They'd have to add stairways (could be prefab stairways which I think is already done for stairways. Of course, it would cause confusion for people thiking their train went furtrher.
Is it really necessary to run the extra stop in passenger service? The expense of installing new staircases, lighting, signage, etc. for a temporary service seems unnecessary. Anyone who needs to get to City Hall can transfer at Canal (preferably from the Q/Q/W) to the 6 or J/M. The 1/2 will also stop right across the street at Park Place, and the A/C at the other end of the Park Place platform. Even without the City Hall station, the City Hall Park area is very well served.
it won't be used. construction crews have their hands full without upgrading a station.
I agree with you. I just responded to the question of what would need to be done.
Outside of building a new stairway, (there is another stairway that can be re-opened toward the south end of the station) people who wind up at City Hall are going to wonder how do they continue from there going further downtown or to Brooklyn. They will have to go back to Canal St to catch another train. So have Canal St as the last stop.
I know there's only one stairway now...but does my memory trick me, of did there used to be a second one as recently as 1992-ish?
G: On the midnight tour, the G will run to Continental Av.
On weekends from 7 AM to 9 PM, the G will be OPTO and will operate between Continental Av and Church Av. T/O's will report to Court Square, Continental and Stillwell-F. From 9 PM to 7 AM, southbound trains will relay at 4th Avenue.
Some of the G OPTO assignments will have 3 round trips from Continental Av to Church Av which is exactly 1 hour each way plus relays on both ends. That is the equivalent of doing 2 round trips on the F in OPTO service. And these jobs only pay on average 9:20. Safe to say that only T/O's with file numbers 3000+ will be stuck with these jobs.
V: Continental Av to 2nd Avenue. The majority of jobs will be 3 round trips with a few jobs doing 4 trips. V crews will report to Jamaica Yard, Continental Av and 2nd Avenue (wonder where the dispatcher's office will be).
Will the weekday G also run to Church?
No, just on weekends.
Why? The 4th Avenue transfer is useful weekdays as well as weekends.
It's a car shortage thing. Supposedly it would require 1-2 more trains that they can't part with during rush hour.
It would not cost them much more because the switching jobs at 4th ave. would become road jobs and you would not slow the F down at all cleaning the train out at Smith. There is a tower at Church already so you can have a real crew area for comfort breaks.
Okay, then, why not at least middays and evenings? Having to transfer to the F to go one stop is just plain annoying, especially off-peak when headways are longer.
(If the current slew of diversions is still in effect, there may be enough cars even during rush hours.)
It is annoying but how many people are really affected and where do you stop, bring it to the Aqaurium so they can connect with the D? and back track to Brighton. If you need to get from Greenpoint to 95th you take a bus and walk a block to the MNR. The 61 bus that goes from Queens Plaza to Red hook is hopping even at 2am. On the midnights coming from Van Wyck Blvd going to Stillwell, I can actually take 2 buses to Parkside and beat the train down there. The regulars know all the tricks.
I am on the midnights and those stations are fairly dead, even 4th ave upstairs and downstairs. I really don't think it is realistic to add service to other places everytime there is a service interuption somewhere else. You would be transferring cars all night. Also it would be uneven as serice is restored to WTC you would yank serivce elsewhere people would be writing supplements 24/7.
As for daytime they use that for some transfers, washes, cleaning the cars, you do need to take stuff out of service during those hours. I would not advocate moving more of the yard car cleaners and advertisement guys to the midnights either, that is an accident waiting to happen.
Think of your company. There are departments and while they do cooperate each one is accountable on their own. If there is a problem on the N no one is going to want to hear the N Supt say well I loaned cars to the G and could not get them back in time. They have to force people to give school car trains, even ones that are just staying in the yard!
Just out of curiosity are you part of the Straphangers Campaign?
Turn at Church at all times except rush hours (the rush hour exception only because of the car shortage; once the R-143's enter service en masse, the G should turn at Church at all times). I realize that some cars that aren't in service middays need to be cleaned, serviced, or what have you, but I'd be surprised to learn that the two or three extra trains that would need to remain in service would push the system over the edge.
Transfers are good. Near misses are bad. This near miss is easy to rectify. Why should people have to ride buses for many miles when a subway line already does the trick -- modulo one stop?
I have no affiliation with Straphangers other than as a subscriber to the emailed service advisories and as a very occasional reader of the online message boards.
>Transfers are good. Near misses are bad. This near miss is easy to >rectify. Why should people have to ride buses for many miles when a >subway line already does the trick -- modulo one stop?
Near misses are not always bad they just offend our sense of order. A hit no one uses is a waste. No one makes that connection except during rush hours and the school kids. That is probably one of the reasons why they cut that service. At late night there is no one on the G that far down.
There is no big NE brooklyn to South Brooklyn connection demand. The reason to extend it is to not plug the F and that is only a concern during the days. I do think the TA is testing these waters and you might see it expand. But don't think the new cars will help immediately. some of the 40/42 should be put out of their misery. I don't know if they are defering the maintenance since their days are numbered but I get a lot of brake problems on those trains and the extended runs don't help. No train line breaks is OK for a shuttle but to Stillwell it takes days off your life.
Don't let the buses fool you some of those lines fly otside of Manhattan and you avoid some scary connections like 4th Ave at night.
Tonight I have a Myrtle-L report and I am taking 2 buses to work.
I took a quick look at the pick board and it looks like the G will only stop at Chucrh on Saturday during the daytime. Z is right the 3 trippers will get high numbers the 2 trippers will be gone by 2000.
Near misses are not always bad they just offend our sense of order. A hit no one uses is a waste. No one makes that connection except during rush hours and the school kids. That is probably one of the reasons why they cut that service. At late night there is no one on the G that far down.
Rush hours and schoolkids don't count?
That connection isn't popular because it requires an extra transfer. Make it direct and it'll become more popular. Nobody's suggesting it'll ever be as popular as Times Square, but a transfer there would be of use to some.
Someone recently posted here, asking for advice on selecting a route. If the G reached 4th Avenue, that would definitely be his best bet.
Don't you think it would be useful for the G to connect to the BMT somewhere in Brooklyn south of the L? If not for the G alone, then for the A/C (now A/E) -- sure, that connection is available through the F, but it's easier for eastbound ("southbound") passengers to use the G and having both the F and G as options reduces wait times.
There is no big NE brooklyn to South Brooklyn connection demand. The reason to extend it is to not plug the F and that is only a concern during the days. I do think the TA is testing these waters and you might see it expand. But don't think the new cars will help immediately. some of the 40/42 should be put out of their misery. I don't know if they are defering the maintenance since their days are numbered but I get a lot of brake problems on those trains and the extended runs don't help. No train line breaks is OK for a shuttle but to Stillwell it takes days off your life.
The R-143 will not be replacing any cars in current service. In effect, the R-143 is a belated replacement for the R-30, retired in 1993.
I don't know why the R-40 and R-42 are not being maintained. Personally, I'll miss them, especially the R-42.
Don't let the buses fool you some of those lines fly otside of Manhattan and you avoid some scary connections like 4th Ave at night.
I know the bus lines in my neighborhood. I know the bus lines, basically, around my entire borough. Once I leave Manhattan, my bus knowledge is very limited -- but I know the subway system citywide. I don't think it's fair to assume that the only people who would use this connection live in the area.
I took a quick look at the pick board and it looks like the G will only stop at Chucrh on Saturday during the daytime. Z is right the 3 trippers will get high numbers the 2 trippers will be gone by 2000.
On Saturday but not Sunday? When was the last time there were different service patterns on Saturdays and Sundays?
>Rush hours and schoolkids don't count?
I actually they don't because now that I think about it the kids use 4th ave to go between the BMT and the F to go to Dewey and the other HS down there. As for rush hours the headway is supposed to take care of pile ups going southbound and it is not an issue northbound.
>I don't think it's fair to assume that the only people who would use >this connection live in the area.
Sure it is because the only one that would save a connection are people going to or from work on the G. Coming from Upper Manhattan you don't need it because you would take the A,C to W4th if you wanted the F or the 1,2,3 to TS if you needed BMT service. The East side has connections that can save tranfers too.
>Someone recently posted here, asking for advice on selecting a >route. If the G reached 4th Avenue, that would definitely be his >best bet.
But until last weeks unfortunate events this was not a typical traffic pattern and still may not be. Most of the N/B rush is from Greenpoint/Williamsburg to the garment factories and the S. Brooklyn to the L train. Southbound to the L and A and the Amstar factory. Some people like my mom would actually get out and walk from Lawrence to Fulton then tackle going up that staircase at 4th.
>On Saturday but not Sunday? When was the last time there were >different service patterns on Saturdays and Sundays?
Someone here would know but that is what is going to happen. Maybe they are testing the waters. A Church to Court Sq G might work well or become a homeless heaven, no relay and few cops and fewer riders.
Sure it is because the only one that would save a connection are people going to or from work on the G. Coming from Upper Manhattan you don't need it because you would take the A,C to W4th if you wanted the F or the 1,2,3 to TS if you needed BMT service. The East side has connections that can save tranfers too.
Of course not many people traveling to or from Manhattan will use the G. But the G is useful for people traveling in what American Pig calls Royal Island. For instance, what's the best route from Bay Ridge to JFK? Now it's the J (or R) to the F to the A, but the G would obviate the need to cross over at Jay and is slightly shorter. And don't forget that not all travel is between home and work, or even to or from home at all -- I often find myself in one part of the city and need to get to a different part of the city, neither anywhere near home. If I needed to get from the 4th Avenue corridor to the G further up, the bus wouldn't even be a consideration -- I'd just wait out the extra transfer.
I don't like assuming facts about all of the riders of a given line -- they're invariably inaccurate.
But until last weeks unfortunate events this was not a typical traffic pattern and still may not be.
Why not? I don't remember exactly where he was coming from (somewhere on the J or the M, I guess), but he was going to Court Square. Wouldn't a direct transfer to the G be the quickest route no matter what?
Some people like my mom would actually get out and walk from Lawrence to Fulton then tackle going up that staircase at 4th.
Some of us still have those old-fashioned pay-per-ride cards. Remember those? Going outside is not an option.
The staircase isn't that bad. It's certainly not bad in the other direction.
Someone here would know but that is what is going to happen. Maybe they are testing the waters. A Church to Court Sq G might work well or become a homeless heaven, no relay and few cops and fewer riders.
Interesting point, but there are many lines with no relay: the 1/9, 2, 3, 7, A, E (to WTC), J (now), L, M, N, Q (both, under the regular schedule), most shuttles, and W.
Why don't cops patrol the G as much as any other line?
The fewer riders bit is, in small part, a self-fulfilling prophecy. It's simply inaccessible from any IRT or BMT line except the L.
>Of course not many people traveling to or from Manhattan will use >the G. But the G is useful for people traveling in what American Pig >calls Royal Island.
You lost me
>For instance, what's the best route from Bay >Ridge to JFK? Now it's >the J (or R) to the F to the A, but the G >would obviate the need to >cross over at Jay and is slightly shorter.
I think the best way is the 37 bus to the A, one transfer and no 20 zillion flights of stairs at 4th ave carrying luggage.
>And don't forget that not all travel is between home and work, or >even to or from home at all -- I often find myself in one part of >the city and need to get to a different part of the city, neither >anywhere near home. If I needed to get from the 4th Avenue corridor >to the G further up, the bus wouldn't even be a consideration -- I'd >just wait out the extra transfer.
I'm sorry you are just not worth an extra car and crew cost. And most of the time you won't even miss your connection just have the inconvenience of getting off and back on.
Service is not based on individual needs, it is mass transit. Service is based on where people live, play and work in mass not potential trips people need to make.
>I don't like assuming facts about all of the riders of a given line ->- they're invariably inaccurate.
Service is based on most riders and there is no reason that connection means anything to any riders starting or ending a trip from Upper Manhattan or the Bronx.
>But until last weeks unfortunate events this was not a typical >traffic pattern and still may not be.
>Why not? I don't remember exactly where he was coming from
>(somewhere on the J or the M, I guess), but he was going to Court >Square. Wouldn't a direct transfer to the G be the quickest route no >matter what?
Sure and the J should always run to Broad for the Fulton St connection but no one uses it. Times change and the reason that area was important is no more. Wall St. workers all get cars home after 8pm and the garment district has long moved north. At one point in time something like over one percent of the worlds manufactured goods were produced over near Greenpoint Williamsburg and a bit lower into Brooklyn. Those jobs are gone and so are the people and the riders.
>Some of us still have those old-fashioned pay-per-ride cards. >remember those? Going outside is not an option.
I have them because my pass does not work for Green busses and if I get an early clear I don't want to swipe. Anyone that has a regular job and any kind of social life should get at least a weekly. I know about where you live so no hearts and violins about living from Metrocard to Metrocard on paychecks.
>The staircase isn't that bad. It's certainly not bad in the other >direction.
What is it 7-8 flights of stairs?? Bring two or three of your relatives over 50 and see what they say.
>Interesting point, but there are many lines with no relay: the 1/9, >2, 3, 7, A, E (to WTC), J (now), L, M, N, Q (both, under the regular >schedule), most shuttles, and W.
And they almost all have homeless problems. The 7 is too short to be a good homeless ride or maybe they don't like the redbirds.
On the n/b midnight A there are more homeless than passengers at least until Euclid. The M shuttle didn't get that problem because the homeless prefer lines that are around an hour or more. The E homeless don't seem to sleep anyway. One of them is always visiting a friend in Jamaica and then going to her daughters house via PATH. I have not had the E since the trajedy. My homeless are very loyal about riding me when I work there, I hope they are OK.
The J relay is back they have to to keep it from plugging the M. The 3 platform conductors they have always wave and always leave a 'package' for me to discover on the relay.
>Why don't cops patrol the G as much as any other line?
All kidding aside except for maybe between Hoyt and Jay and 9th and Bergen on the platforms I have never seen a cop on the G south of QP and not often North of that. Probably a low crime ride or they can't make connections either.
>The fewer riders bit is, in small part, a self-fulfilling prophecy. >It's simply inaccessible from any IRT or BMT line except the L.
True but give them some credit for knowing the ridership. That connection used to be there and somehow they got rid of it and not too many people screamed. Because of the headways most people don't even miss their connection except late at night and both those trains are dead at 3am N/B and SB.
>>>....and if I get an early clear....<<<
Just out of curiosity....what's a "early clear"
Peace,
ANDEE
No knowledge.
>>>No knowledge. <<<
True, that's why I asked the question....DUH.
Peace,
ANDEE
You got that answer because someone used a phrase he shouldn't have and is now wishing he hadn't."No Knowledge" is the standard answer to a question when the truth would be self-incriminating. That said, if I use the term "late clear", do you know what I mean? If so, you should be able to figure out what an "early clear" is. If not, go read the Day in a Life of a Train Operator posted elsewhere on this site for an example of an early clear.
If there is no knowledge of an early clear, then there is no example of an early clear. That is unless there is a blind T/O.
BTW she knows that is her nickname. I know people are obsessed with getting rid of her but she still keepes going.
I wonder if she's still bringing in trains 20 minutes late? Or has she improved to only 10?
>>>>>>>>That is unless there is a blind T/O
Oh no! Lets not start that again mmmkay?
I think the best way is the 37 bus to the A, one transfer and no 20 zillion flights of stairs at 4th ave carrying luggage.
The B37 has 30-minute headways all day Sunday (except at night, when it has 60-minute headways). Even if it skips most stops and doesn't hit traffic (3rd Avenue can get pretty messy at times), I'd rather climb a bit than miss my flight because I had to wait forever for the bus.
There aren't as many steps as you think (see below), and that's not even relevant in the other direction.
I'm sorry you are just not worth an extra car and crew cost.
And what about everyone else?
This shouldn't be the TA's highest priority, but it should be on the list of improvements to be implemented when the resources become available.
And most of the time you won't even miss your connection just have the inconvenience of getting off and back on.
How do you figure? If the F and G run independently (of course, they don't), then the average wait with required transfer is half the F headway plus half the G headway. The only scheduling scenario under which your claim holds is if each G is scheduled to arrive at Smith-9th just after an F (in which case anyone who missed an F would probably miss the following G were it to stop at 4th Avenue), and that's not how F's and G's are scheduled (nor should it be).
Service is not based on individual needs, it is mass transit. Service is based on where people live, play and work in mass not potential trips people need to make.
Service is based on people go. Often that has some connection to where they live, play, or work, but often it doesn't. A modest extension to the G would be a small but significant step against the IND's isolationist design.
Service is based on most riders and there is no reason that connection means anything to any riders starting or ending a trip from Upper Manhattan or the Bronx.
And there are dozens of connections that are simply irrelevant to those who travel within Brooklyn. What's your point?
Sure and the J should always run to Broad for the Fulton St connection but no one uses it. Times change and the reason that area was important is no more. Wall St. workers all get cars home after 8pm and the garment district has long moved north.
Actually, every time I've transferred from the J at Fulton, a good number of others did as well. Indeed, the J should run to Broad on weekends -- not for the stations themselves (for all I care, Broad could be locked up and trains would run light from Fulton through Broad to the relay and back) but for the transfer. Again, this wouldn't be my top priority, but I'd place it pretty high up. At least trains terminate at Chambers and not Canal, like they did when the service cut was first implemented in 1990.
At one point in time something like over one percent of the worlds manufactured goods were produced over near Greenpoint Williamsburg and a bit lower into Brooklyn. Those jobs are gone and so are the people and the riders.
Really? I thought the G had increased in popularity in recent years. Am I wrong?
I have them because my pass does not work for Green busses and if I get an early clear I don't want to swipe. Anyone that has a regular job and any kind of social life should get at least a weekly.
Some people work at home.
Some people commute, either on occasion or every day, by means other than subway or bus -- foot, car, cab, commuter rail, ferry, whatever.
Some people work three or four long days per week.
If I spend over $20 in a month on subway and bus fares, it's been a busy week for me. Obviously, except for the occasional Fun Pass (and, once, a 7-day pass), the unlimited simply don't make sense given my travel patterns. I do use Fun Passes whenever they make sense -- to the extent that I get annoyed if I don't know in advance if I'll be spending two or three fares, even though three individual fares costs less than a dime more than a Fun Pass.
I know about where you live so no hearts and violins about living from Metrocard to Metrocard on paychecks.
Excuse me? I don't believe we've ever met in person, and I certainly have never revealed to you my salary or living arrangements. I'm afraid that my neighborhood has a wide income range -- if you think that Central Park West is typical, do me a favor and take a look at Amsterdam Avenue. In my case (and I don't really know why I'm bothering to share this with you), I'm a graduate student. No income. So, you're right -- I don't live from Metrocard to Metrocard on paychecks.
What is it 7-8 flights of stairs?? Bring two or three of your relatives over 50 and see what they say.
It's 82 steps from the northbound BMT platform to the northbound IND platform -- I counted today. I don't know what the TA's standard riser is -- 6 inches, maybe? That's 41 feet, or about 4 typical flights. In comparison (these numbers are based on Todd Glickman's measurements, posted on this site in the line descriptions), the northbound J/M/Z at Fulton is about 40 feet above the A/C, the ascent at Park Place from the 2/3 to the IND mezzanine is about 50 feet (and getting to the E involves going down, up, and down from there), and at Times Square, the 1/2/3/9 is 40 feet down and the N/R is 50 feet down (only one station exit has an escalator, and that's only from the mezzanine). The 4/5/6 platforms at Grand Central are 50 feet down. The Q/W platforms at Canal Street are 50 feet down. It looks like subway riders deal with comparable transfers and exits all the time, without a second thought.
>>>>>>>>I don't know if they are defering the maintenance since their days are numbered but I get a lot of brake problems on those trains and the extended runs don't help. No train line breaks is OK for a shuttle but to Stillwell it takes days off your life.
Maintenance isn't being deferred, it's just that ENY shop is in disarray.
As far as the bad brakes go, as weird as it sounds, you get used to it. Normally, the M&K 42's and all the 40's have excellent brakes. It's the CI R42's that are the pits.
>>>>>>>>Don't let the buses fool you some of those lines fly otside of Manhattan
Absolutely.
>>>>>>>>>I took a quick look at the pick board and it looks like the G will only stop at Chucrh on Saturday during the daytime. Z is right the 3 trippers will get high numbers the 2 trippers will be gone by 2000.
I think that it's safe to say that next pick, the G will be turned into a junior line. How would you like a schedule like this:
Mon, Thu, Fri: 6 round trips from Court Sq to 4th Av
Sat: 3 round trips from Continental Av to Church Av
Sun: 3 round trips from Continental Av to 4th Av for 8:00 pay.
Aside from the fact that they all start in Queens, it doesn't sound like much more than what I'm doing now. And there's no one to ask silly questions at the relay.
I could live with the weekend part. Six trips seems like a bit much since I hate the 4th ave relay. Really it's irrational it's not a big homeless line and I have never really had the problems that I do at 179, Broad or Euclid but 4th ave bothers me.
How come you hate the 4th Av relay? Any particular reason, or is it one of those things that just cannot be explained?
I think it's becasue I almost always slip on the 9th st plat no matter what kind of shoes I wear, that the switchman is almost never there on the realys he is supposed to help with (as a probational I still carry around all that crap AND a water bottle), that I get the one of the first from cont'l and QB master keeps me at 36th and QP to long so I am a bit late and have to rush. And the slipping lateness no switchman and heavy crap to lug trainline (thank god its 6 cars) all together.
It's also an orange jello thing, I just don't like it
It's at the north (west) end of the northbound platform. It, and the new crew quarters, were shown to us when we worked the V dry run last weekend.
So what do you think -is the pick going to happen tomorrow or will be postponed?
I heard rumors that it will be postponed because they'll have to redraw the work programs if the damage on the N/R is severe. We'll find out today.
Not that any of us have to worry about it since the majority of us are still 4 digit rookies (except Bill from Maspeth).
I called at 0745 and they are in fact picking with the BMT. They may, however, repick the IRT, as there will be chaos with the 1/9 and 2/3, which will drop a few runs. I hope Bill didn't sleep the pick :-(
Personally, I'm very glad that it appears that they did not cancel the pick. I would hate to think that 2 trips on the J to 95 would be a regular occurance. Though the M crews are getting over big time with only 2 trips to Stillwell instead of 2 to Bay Pkwy and 1 to 9 Av.
Yikes 2 to Bay Pkway! I thought 1 and 2 to ninth was bad. And Stillwell is more pleasant than Nith Ave to rest.
I think the E and Euclid C guys are doing OK to but they insist otherwise. Two as a queens express in my book is better than 3 local to 168.
The Q must be down to 2 trips too. Must be a bit better than 2 on as the old D.
That round Q which is "against the wall" thru Brooklyn, Manhattan & Queens, I was told, has a running time of something like 1:53. The old D was lots better, at least it was express in Manhattan and during the rush the Bronz also.
"Against the wall"? I've heard that phrase before, I'm guessing it means all local.
Yep..ever heard a station announcement about "Downtown F train against the wall?" (at W 4th Street for example). Coming in on the local track (wall is behind it)
You are right I forgot it is now a Manhattan local on a slowpoke line.
Still it is about the same number of stops as the midnight D, you just crawl on the BMT line. The TA is also VERY generous with these new supplements, at least generous for them.
Otherwise I think it does work well as a solution to the current difficulties.
The M shuttle guys may be disappointed they will have to 95th. Except if they get the runs where you get to see the naked people near the bridge.
The regular M shuttle guys on the weekends aren't too thrilled about having to go to Coney Island. Me, I'm quite thrilled.
What would you rather do? 12 shuttles or 2 trips?
Actually I'd rather do 12 shuttles. The G/O shuttle was more like 6-7 shuttles. Have you noticed the people at Marcy that stand near the AK to see you take it?
Maybe it's changed but some of the equipment they leave on the shuttle is terrible. Twice I had trains with bad brakes, one of the times no B2. At that hour no one wants to hear about taking a train out of service. It was just 'well the cb is up so it works'. It really was not too bad, for a shuttle, but I would hate to do the bridge like that.
At least at Stillwell at midnight you can eat and get coffee. That coffee the cleaner makes at Met terminal is terminal and criminal.
>>>>>>>>The G/O shuttle was more like 6-7 shuttles
I always got 8. Most crews did 7. If you got 6 then you were lucky.
As far as the equipment, it's all in bad shape. The dynamic brakes are shot. And you can get a stuck brake condition with the R42-CI equipment quite often (4840-4949).
>>>>>>>>That coffee the cleaner makes at Met terminal is terminal and criminal.
It's one of the C/R's that puts the coffee/cakes out. I think he's trying to eclipse Det.Yemana from "Barney Miller".
You got 8 trips pulling it to Marcy? Someone must hate you. The relay takes longer than the shuttle. It was a penalty job I hope.
Breaking in on the M, I got a daytime GO. That was one to Bay Pkwy and one or two shuttles. That was heavenly.
On midnights, a fat cleaner sometimes makes the coffee. Someone must pee in that pot it is so bad, either that or he confuses the metal polish with the cream.
>>>>>>>You got 8 trips pulling it to Marcy? Someone must hate you. The relay takes longer than the shuttle. It was a penalty job I hope.
I think you're right. The job paid 9:27. There however are quite a few jobs that do 8 trips during the GO.
As far as the coffee goes, well..........I was wondering why the liquid soap in the bathroom goes so quickly.
Actually, my time to pick was during working hours so I called the pick man at ENY before he went to lunch.
They say they may repick the Broadway section only.
If they have a file number of 3000+ they probably can't do OPTO. Believe me people will take that job. It still pays more than alot of A jobs.
Pick up a Train at Stilwell and clear at Church? Some Brooklyn guys are going to be bidding.
Plus it is an AM/PM job.
Ditch that pain in the ass relay at Smith and Ninth? Woo Hoo!
I bet more people under #2000 take it than over. You might even get some guys coming out of the Met cave for it.
>>>>>>>If they have a file number of 3000+ they probably can't do OPTO. Believe me people will take that job. It still pays more than alot of A jobs.
You can have one day on the road in title and work OPTO, as long as you are OPTO qualified. I've seen quite a few "probies" on the sheets assigned to OPTO jobs.
>>>>>>>>Pick up a Train at Stilwell and clear at Church? Some Brooklyn guys are going to be bidding.
The majority of G jobs out of STF clear at Court Square.
>>>>>>>Ditch that pain in the ass relay at Smith and Ninth? Woo Hoo!
Correct. The pain in the ass relay at 4th Avenue will now be replaced by a pain in the ass relay at Church Av.
>>>>>>>>>>I bet more people under #2000 take it than over. You might even get some guys coming out of the Met cave for it.
Care to wager on this?
>Correct. The pain in the ass relay at 4th Avenue will now be >replaced by a pain in the ass relay at Church Av.
They won't turn you in station?
>Care to wager on this?
Hmm, let me look at the program. Under 1200 you start to get the sweet jobs. Is it too late to switch between A and B. Some IRT jobs may start to stink this pick too.
What will the G run in November. OPTO is better with 44's than 46 because of the seat.
Well I am glad I may not have to wait 2 years to get OPTO qualifed like I was told I would.
>>>>>They won't turn you in station?
Highly doubt it. But when you go back to work tomorrow, see if you can get a peek at the non-road work programs and see if there is a switching job on Sat/Sun at Church Av.
>>>>>>>Is it too late to switch between A and B. Some IRT jobs may start to stink this pick too.
Only switch to the A division if it makes it more convenient for you. But understand that there are quite a few jobs waiting to hand your head on a platter over there as well.
>>>>>>>What will the G run in November. OPTO is better with 44's than 46 because of the seat.
R68's as of now. OPTO wise, the R44's are the worst trains to operate on because of the tight constraints. Remember that you have to turn completely around at every stop for OPTO.
>>>>>>Well I am glad I may not have to wait 2 years to get OPTO qualifed like I was told I would.
If you know what's good for you, you WON'T get OPTO qualified. Trust me.
>Highly doubt it. But when you go back to work tomorrow, see if you >can get a peek at the non-road work programs and see if there is a >switching job on Sat/Sun at Church Av.
I don't remember seeing an R on the program, I'll look again. Those switchmen stink over there, they always miss me. Taking a train into the hole alone is a safety thing too.
>Only switch to the A division if it makes it more convenient for >you. But understand that there are quite a few jobs waiting to hand >your head on a platter over there as well.
Well the A divison WTC damage is more likely to stay into the next pick, so more of those job will stay stinky. I was thinking some of them might go to B.
>R68's as of now. OPTO wise, the R44's are the worst trains to >operate on because of the tight constraints. Remember that you have >to turn completely around at every stop for OPTO.
But the seats pop up which some people like. I guess it depends on your size too.
>If you know what's good for you, you WON'T get OPTO qualified. Trust >me
Where do I send the G2? The problem is the G is the only one that is remotely good for me. The others are a pain to get to.
Next switch in divisions happens with the Spring '02 pick. Requests to change from A to B for this pick had to be in months ago. At this point, you're stuck wherever you are until Aprilish(?).
I am not stuck they are!
>>>>>>>>I don't remember seeing an R on the program, I'll look again. Those switchmen stink over there, they always miss me. Taking a train into the hole alone is a safety thing too.
Well if there isn't an R (for relay) on the book, then there will indeed be a switchman to take it down the hole. I did however notice that you will not escape the relay at CTL. And on the second part, that's why you need to clean out your train at every terminal before a relay point.
>>>>>>>>But the seats pop up which some people like. I guess it depends on your size too.
They only pop up if you have skinny legs. Otherwise you have to kick it up. With the 46's on OPTO, all you do is stand up and the seat isn't in your way.
>>>>>>>>>>Where do I send the G2? The problem is the G is the only one that is remotely good for me. The others are a pain to get to.
The Rock Park Shuttle is a line that is definitely worth the commute out there. But if you're working PM's or MID's, you may want to drive to work. As far as the G goes, I did 2 picks on the G a couple of years back when I couldn't pick anything else. 5 trips from Court Sq to 4 Av. It wasn't easy for those shuttles, and it'll be harder for the 3 trippers out of CTL. I honestly would not work those G jobs for double the pay.
90% of T/O's that work the OPTO G run (and I mean run) from it when the pick is over. One T/O hated it so much that he won't even pick a weekday G job with a C/R. Another used up the majority of his sick time so as to avoid it, and I was counting the days to the end of the pick (only 87 more to go).
Well if there isn't an R (for relay) on the book, then there will indeed be a switchman to take it down the hole.
There are no R s in the work program either this current pick or the new one on the weekend W jobs. However, the switchman does take it in the hole - the road TO just has to bring it out.
The realy at CTL is a different story. In theory you have platform people there to help you clean it and there is help around assuming your radio works.
What is Church like? Just an ATD?
I think if you double end it would still show an R just with less time alloted. S/B the program goes to 4th ave not to S/9.
At least at Church St the switchman can't hide without looking ridiculous. And it's changing ends in the hole that can be sticky.
As I said let me look at the program.
What would you like to wager?
>>>>>>>What is Church like? Just an ATD?
Church Av is a cramped tower with just a TW/O. There really isn't anything there as far as crew facilities. And I believe that it's the only tower in the system where there is a push button machine and a pull iron machine right next to each other (the pull iron is for the lower level).
>>>>>>>>What would you like to wager?
Well you were saying that the G jobs will go to T/O's with file numbers below 2000 since they are mostly penalty jobs. I say there isn't a snowballs chance in hell of this happening. We can work out the details of this and wager say $50 with the money going to help the WTC victims.
Will Sept 11, 2001 kill off the 2nd Ave line...or spur its development?
www.forgotten-ny.com
It'll certainly have some effect. Whether the effect will be a delay - because we need to divert effort towards repair/building WTC-area tunnels-, or whether the effect will be a quicker construction - becuase of all the funding that will come to the city-, is to be decided. A delay is probably more likely.
One could argue that the economic effects will eliminate any possibility of the City and State paying for this on their own. Or that the rest of the country will finally stop draining NY. We'll see.
The net economic effect will be positive. Lots of construction jobs. Engineering. Architecture. Bldg materials. Ammunition. Guns.
Wars are good for the economy.
(The net economic effect will be positive. Lots of construction jobs. Engineering. Architecture. Bldg materials. Ammunition. Guns. Wars are good for the economy.)
Only if the problem is inadequate demand. As it is, a really big war will cause inflation, especially if the fighting leads to the disruption of middle-east oil supplies.
(The net economic effect will be positive. Lots of construction jobs. Engineering. Architecture. Bldg materials. Ammunition. Guns. Wars are good for the economy.)
Only if the problem is inadequate demand. As it is, a really big war will cause inflation, especially if the fighting leads to the disruption of middle-east oil supplies.
As for the reconstruction, it's called the "broken window fallacy," ie. you can make people better off by breaking all the windows in the country and then replacing them. Those resources will be lost to someone else. Money could have been used to build the Second Ave. instead.
...especially if the fighting leads to the disruption of middle-east oil supplies.
And the disruption makes it LESS likely that a subway will be built?
Personally, I'd look forward to $4.00 a gallon gas prices. That would finally destroy suburbanization.
Not to mention civilization as we know it.
wayne
Yeah, I don't like SUVs either!
avid
But the home heating oil price rise during the winter would also accompany the spike in gasoline prices, which would hurt people even without cars (though it might halt all the protests about extending pieplines for transporting natual gas, which is both better for heating and completely supplied domestically by the U.S., Canada and Mexico).
It will spur it if the city, state and federal government decide there should be as few cars parked in and around downtown buildings as possible. Eliminating parking garages inside buildings and restricting street parking would mean more mass transit is required in the area.
Well, I hate to be a downer here, especially since I'm as big a railfan as anybody. However, I never believed the Second Avenue Line was gonna get built. I think we'll be lucky if we get the lower end of the West Side Line re-built.
Even if they ban more downtown parking, the rest of the country will probably soon stop feeling sorry for us- we probably won't get much more funding, and they won't replace the lost parking with more subway service. Like I said, we'll be fortunate to get back what we lost.
I think if this was your run-of-the-mille NYC construction project, you would be right. But rebuilding the WTC site and the infrastructure below it is not routine; it's part of sending a message to the terrorists and others who would support them about both New York and America's resolve, and for that reason, it will not be put on the back-burner like the Second Ave. subway has been for the past 50 years.
If they put in the repairs to the 1/9 tunnel once the debris is clear, the work should be unobstructed by having to deal with the normal N.Y. underground hazards, like utility, water and sewer lines, because they will all be inoperative. Workers also won't have to worry about porping up the roof for vehicular traffic, since there is no street on -site and West Broadway figures to be closed for at least a block or two north of Vescey, as will Greewich St. for a block or two south of Liberty.
Given that, I think the 1/9 will be back up faster than expected, unless there's some reason to remove the entire foundation down to 80 feet below street level. Then you're looking at a very extended closure.
Agreed.
I certainly hope your scenario is right. By nature I'm a pessimist. I highly recommend this trait- you'll never be disappointed.
I either get validated, or pleasantly surprised- either outcome suits me fine.
I've got pessimistic streaks in me as well. I'm just going by the example of the Northridge earthquake recovery in Los Angeles back in 1994. Before the quake the state had been telling people living in norther Los Angeles County it would take 5-10 years to build a rail link along existing freight lines to their area, which was home to about 500,000 people. After the quake when the I-5, Cal. 14 interchange went down, the stations, singals, parking areas all were in place and ready for operation in one week.
The 1/9 isn't going to be fixed in one week, but it's amazing what motivation and a focused goal can do to speed up projects that normally drag along for years.
Crises are great for that. I's too bad that a crisis is what it takes, though. Additional money shows up, often without debate or opposition, NIMBY becomes (temporarily) extinct, and people really show their best sides.
New York deserves this at this extraordinary time.
"I think we'll be lucky if we get the lower end of the West Side Line re-built."
The funding is already there for that. But write to your elected officials, when the time is right, and to MTA, and let them know you want it done.
Funding is not an issue here. New York got a big disaster-relief and reconstruction package in unanimous votes in Congress, and signing it makes Bush look real good.
If nothing else, this incident may lead to the tolling of all approaches to Manhattan with an extension of the EZ Pass system. Those from Bayside could be told that the City will not have the money required to maintain the roads and bridges without it. And the toll collection could also be a security measure -- no entry without EZ Pass, and no EZ Pass without background checks.
You might also get deliveries restricted to the middle of the night, when a truck bomb would kill fewer people.
London was pedestrianized, in part, due to terrorism.
I don't think one has to do with the other. The federal govt is providing funding for infrastructure (including subway) repairs, $20 billion worth; this funding is idependent of anything committed by the state or others to 2nd Av.
If the #1 line is repaired and returned to service prior to 2004, there is no reason why, assuming sufficient work crews are available, that 2nd Av construction should not begin.
Funding-wise, these two are not really connected. But there is already a shortage of skilled craft workers - that may be a problem.
"Funding-wise, these two are not really connected. But there is already a shortage of skilled craft workers - that may be a
problem."
In 2004 or 2005 the big dig will be finnished and there will be pleanty of skilled workers that need jobs.
CNBC is fielding questions live right now about service questions tomorrow. Ferries, NJT, and NYCTA
cnbc@nbc.com
1-800-487-2622
they ran the list of service changes..i couldn't catch them quickly, but i think it said something about no J&M service in Manhattan. Queens& Brooklyn only.
Map will be up on the website shortly
I stand corrected on the J&M. J to 95th st. M to Coney Island, and Q to Coney Island.
they did say the 1 only to 14th st, and 2 & 3 service is back to normal (and has been so for about an hour or so).
Park Place is usable? That was quick.
How is the 1 turning at 14th without backing up 2's and 3's on the express track?
The tunnels are usable. Apparently testing was going on today, but there will be slow orders ALL over.
Park Place and Chambers Street (#2/#3) will both be skipped, as will Chambers Street (A/C, now A/E) and Wall Street (#4/#5).
David
Park Place and Chambers Street (#2/#3) will both be skipped, as will Chambers Street (A/C, now A/E) and Wall Street (#4/#5).
According to the latest updates on the MTA's site, the 2 and 3 will serve Chambers Street, bypassing only Park Place. IND Chambers will be bypassed along with Wall Street.
This is a perfect example of changes occurring minute-to-minute. The 6:15 PM MTA website update indicated that the Chambers Street (#2/#3) station would be closed on Monday. The 7 PM update (apparently the one Peter Rosa read) said the station would be open. However, I noticed that the text summarizing the service changes continues to state that FOUR stations would be closed, even though only THREE are to be closed...which says to me that this update was done in a BIG hurry.
David
I just had the 6:15 update on my screen. The line-by-line info only listed Park Place as closed; the intro listed Chambers as well.
I refreshed and now I see the 7:15 update. Same deal. The only change I see is that the diamond-Q will run middays (yay!).
The map that's on-line is listing Chambers Street as being closed. So it sounds like they are bypassing Chambers too.
Which map? The New York Times map is not official, nor is it up-to-date. The map on the TA web site is the same one that's been posted there since July 20. (I'd love to see a new one with the temporary changes but I'm sure the TA has much greater priorities right now.)
http://www.mta.nyc.ny.us/emergency/emernyct.htm#subway
Hey! That's neighborhood map cartography! (It still needs to be updated -- it very explicitly includes the WTC itself. It also shows two entrances to Canal BMT that I know don't exist anymore.) I'm saving this locally -- it shows all the street entrances, like the neighborhood maps posted at stations.
If NYCT were to produce a complete citywide atlas based on the neighborhood maps and were to sell it for a reasonable price (not the $20 per page or whatever the current price for neighborhood maps is), I'd be first in line to buy it. Farewell, Hagstrom.
>>>The map on the TA web site is the same one that's been
posted there since July 20. (I'd love to see a new one with the temporary changes but I'm sure the TA has much greater priorities right
now.)<<<
The map that's posted now at:
http://www.mta.nyc.ny.us/nyct/maps/submap_system.pdf
is updated for the temporary service as of 9/17/01.
This is a perfect example of changes occurring minute-to-minute. The 6:15 PM MTA website update indicated that the Chambers Street (#2/#3) station would be closed on Monday. The 7 PM update (apparently the one Peter Rosa read) said the station would be open. However, I noticed that the text summarizing the service changes continues to state that FOUR stations would be closed, even though only THREE are to be closed...which says to me that this update was done in a BIG
hurry.
Constant changes are to be expected under the circumstances. What actually ends up running for Monday's rush hour might be quite different from what the MTA's site shows.
Actually, I misread the thing -- four stations ARE closed: Chambers Street (#2/#3), Chambers Street (A/C), Park Place (#2, #3), and Wall Street (#4/#5), in addition to those on sections of the system that aren't running at all (Whitehall Street to City Hall [N/R], South Ferry to Cortlandt Street [#1/#9], "World Trade Center" [E]).
More changes will be forthcoming as we move along.
David
Look at the top of the page: Chambers on both the A/E and the 2/3 is closed.
My surprise at Park Place was based on the rumor(?) that the station was flooded. The issue was whether trains could pass through the area at all, not if they could stop there.
2 and 3 will be running local in both directions, 1 will turn from the express tracks.
NO! Park Place closed until further noticeas is WTC E, Cortylandt, Rector 1/9- "indefinitely". N/R from Canal to Whitehall out for "weeks".
As of midnight when I ended my shift 2 and 3 trains run LOCAL to Brooklyn bypassing Franklin, Chambers, and Park Place both directions. 1 trains EXPRESS 96 - 14 both directions.
Park Place was flooded but the TA had the pump train there from Thur. to Sat.
This month, our PBS station in Boston, WGBH-TV/2, has been replaying "New York: A Documentary Film." It's an incredible, seven-part, 14 hour series about the history of NYC from the 1600's.
Woven throughout the 1999 series, of course, is how the streetcars/railroads/subways transformed the city. And "flash-fronts" capture spectacular views of modern NYC, with the Twin Towers in all their former glory. There are wonderful old clips of the building and running of many of the streetcar & subway lines.
I don't know if it's being replayed now on WNET-TV/13 (check your local listings!), but if/when it is, it is not to be missed. You can read about it and order a set of tapes from the PBS Web site.
I've learned more about my native New York City from this series than from all my years of living and working there.
Do YOU know why a park was named after Jacob Riis?
Agreed, it's a terrific show.
The final part has finally been finished and will soon be airing, at least here in NY.
I wonder if Ric Burns could add something abt NYers' response to Sept 11.
www.forgotten-ny.com
Kevin:
It's hard to imagine that two 110 story skyscrapers built in 1970 are now part of forgotten-ny. New York always changes - this was just too fast.
Best wishes and keep up the good work...
Gerry
>>>>two 110 story skyscrapers built in 1970 are now part of forgotten-ny. <<<
Disagree..they'll never be forgotten...
Jacon Riis documented "the two cities" in photographs.
Do YOU know why a park was named after Jacob Riis?
The beach/park in the Rockaways was named after Riis because of his photographic jounralism depicting the poor and down-trodden in NYC (particularly children). Also, I believe he was an early 'ecologist'/conservationist.
BMTman
I recently picked up a copy of the "Encyclopedia of New York City" edited by Kenneth Jackson at Borders. I wouldn't exactly say that it's light reading, but I expect to enjoy thumbing through it and learning new things about NYC.
--Mark
I started at Broadway East New York (BENY). As is my custom, I take the J to get to BENY. Since the Broadway Line did not stop at Canal (Except Q) and since J was going to Broad, I took the A to Broaday Nassau to get the J.
Chambers- platform was wet. Presumably mobile wash cleaned the platform.Many employees seen in vests (orange vests). TC E platform also wet and also employees in vests. I saw no damage to my untraiend eye on both Chambers IND plats. Broadway Nassau was different. IND platform dusty-can see footprints on the tile. I went to the J the ramp was very dusty along with airborne dust and very strong "smokey" snell. I wore a dust mask, no gogles and my eyes were watery all night.Tonight I work the J and end at Brooklyn bridge on the 4.I am bringing goggles tonight. There were hand made signs pointing out the exit to the street.(Which I did not take). Tomorrow when I open gates at Brooklyn bridge (assuming I am not instructed to leave them closed) I can give a report on City Hall Park. I plan on returning home via PATH 33 to Newark and can give a report on PATH tomorrow. I itend to try to get info from PATH people.
As some of you know, I watched the events unfolding on the East Coast from Denver, Colorado, where I had gone on a business trip (and more importantly to ride the light rail with Steve B-8AVEXP). Because of the uncertainty of the airline situation - United told me that they "might" be able to get me home on Tuesday, by flying me to Chicago and then either a connecting flight to Philadelphia or a chartered bus to Newark - I opted to drive my rental car 1816 miles back across the country to New Jersey. The support I saw across the US for New York was tremendous. I left Denver early Friday morning, following I-70 east. In Kansas, American flags decorated almost every overpass from Salina east to the state line, a distance of over 150 miles. Many of these were hand-painted on bedsheets, along with messages of support for the victims of the tragedy or simply the words "God Bless America". In Missouri, a group of veterans were collecting funds for the Red Cross at a rest stop. Even the motel where I stayed in St. Louis had a prominently-displayed request that guests offer prayers for the victims and their families and for our country. On Saturday, I encountered several hundred Corvette owners converging on Greenville, Illinois, many with patriotic banners on their cars. At a rest stop an hour or so east of Indianapolis, Indiana, a high school band was playing patriotic tunes, reasonably well considering they had only gotten the music two days before. Ohio was festooned with flags and banners, and the bridge on I-470 entering Wheeling, West Virginia was spanned by a huge banner inviting Mr. Bin Laden and his minions to enjoy eternity in a certain extremely hot place, and suggesting that the local coal miners would gladly help speed his journey. Many houses adjacent to I-70 in Pennsylvania had signs of support, and all along the Pennsylvania Turnpike the highway department had set up their electronic signs with messages such as "God Bless America" and "We Stand United". The hotel where I stayed in Exton, Pennsylvania last night was offering to match guests' contributions to a relief fund. And almost every house on my street in Eatontown is flying a flag as well.
A number of cars and trucks also were displaying messages of support. One of those was a silver Honda with California plates that I saw periodically on Saturday as I crossed Ohio, West Virginia, and Pennsylvania, with the simple message "God Bless America" in soap on its back window. I ended up parked next to the car at a service area on the Pennsylvania Turnpike; the young woman who was driving it was coming back to it just as I got out of my car, and I spoke to her as she approached, commenting on the message. She was on her way to New York to be with her family; her brother is among the missing, but even through the tremendous pain which she must feel she was able to put that message on her window. God Bless America, indeed.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
It's a nice relief from the usual NY bashing, especially from southerners.
Well here are some southerners in Atlanta todday that apparently don't give a f--k about doing anything about getting the people who destroyed the World Trade Center.
Too bad their city isn't as a major one as Washington and NYC. If terrorist crashed planes in their expensive neighbohoods killing thousands, they sure as hell wouldn't be out there with signs protesting.
On Saturday night, I did my usual job (lighting design) for a gig in London by (THE) John's Children, which was a tribute for the anniversary of Marc Bolan's untimely death. Roland Bolan (son of Marc) was due to fly in from LA to appear. Obviously he couldn't make it but the amps were draped with your national flag. We're thinking of you guys. Love IainFF.
Where in the article did it say that Atlantans were protesting? It said Green Party protesters and one Muslim, they could have come from anywhere in the country and conregated in Atlanta. And for your info, Atlanta is helping out probably more than anyone else. My school and SunTrust bank sponsered a blood drive, and the various Atlanta based companies (Delta, Coke, Home Depot, etc) have donated well over $13 million, among other undisclosed amounts. So take that and shove it.
Yes that is true. People in Atlanta are doing a lot to help out and I personally want to to thank you for doing so. I probably should clarify my post to this thread. I find it deeply insulting that a militant Muslim man living in this country is saying horrible things like that and that were he and others like him in Afghanistan or Iraq, they would not have it so easy and that if he hates America so much, then he should get the hell of out here.
Yeah, a bunch of knee-jerk Green Party members and militant radical Muslims. One of them actually had the gall to say "This is just the beginning..." Send him and all those other shitheads to Afghanistan and Iraq. Let's see how long they last there. The terrorists had Atlanta on their list. These people should be thanking their lucky stars that they didn't get hit. How dare they not show support for the President and America. Kick those America-haters out and send them to Afghanistan!
How dare they not show support for the President and America. Kick those America-haters out and send them to Afghanistan!
I know that a lot of us feel pretty much the same way right now, but one of the freedoms we take for granted in this country - one of the freedoms we are defending right now - is freedom of speech, along with its corollaries freedom of thought and freedom to make an ass out of oneself.
"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." - Benjamin Franklin
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I enlisted during the Vietnam war to avoid being a ground pounder with the Army. I served for 21 years defending freedom. Several times I wanted to punch some guy in the month for bad-mouthing my service to America. But I was protecting his freedom of speech and his rights as an American. All I could do is walk way.
Moreover, Jerry Falwell was quoted as saying the NYC got what it deserved for being full of gays, immigrants, and other undesirables (Blacks, Catholics, Jews, Etc)?
A week ago, I think that was pretty much the majority view, since it allowed people to justify 40 years of draining the City for the benefit of those elsewhere. Has that changed? We'll see.
For now, yes, according to this Associated Press story today:
In the heart of the country, a sympathetic reappraisal of tough,
uncaring New York
By REX W. HUPPKE
Associated Press Writer
From the vast miles of America that lie beyond the Hudson River,
the view of New York City is not always complimentary.
It's an unfriendly place. A "Hey, I'm walkin' here!"
finger-in-your-face place. A place of callous people, a city
without a heart.
But since the day terrorists demolished the World Trade Center,
Americans have seen something different from the Big Apple:
bravery, compassion, heartbreak.
And tears. Tears falling down the faces of crusty New Yorkers.
"It just shows that the stereotypes aren't true," said Gail
Pedro, loading groceries into her car Sunday in Bloomington, Ind.,
700 miles and a lifetime removed from Manhattan. "You see movies
where they show you that New Yorkers are cold and distant. Now you
know it's not true."
People from the Carolinas to California and all points in
between have lined up over the past week and opened their veins to
give blood, opened their pocketbooks to give money and opened their
hearts to the pain being felt on the East Coast. Signs outside
restaurants no longer advertise just the day's special - they read:
"God Bless America" and "United We Stand."
And with the unity that tragedy brings comes a change in
attitude for some.
Danny Flowers of Molino, Fla., said he's never been to New York
City, and he's never associated with anyone from there. But that
doesn't matter. He now sees New Yorkers as people like everybody
else.
"And just like most everybody else," he said, "I'm sad and
hurt by it all."
Cotton farmer Buster Thornton of Rogersville, Ala., said
watching New York's response to the attacks, how the city suffered
but strived to move forward, has given him a different perspective.
"My opinion of people in New York City before this was that
they were crazy and didn't have no feelings for their fellow men,"
Thornton said. "But I think people in New York City have come
together and pulled together. My attitude toward them is different.
I feel sorry for them."
Back in Indiana, Kathleen Plucker sat by a swing set enjoying a
beautiful Sunday while her husband rocked their 6-month-old baby.
She's lived on the East Coast, but now resides in a small college
town in middle America.
"I never really felt like people in New York fit the
stereotypes," she said. "This whole incident has reminded people
that New York City is just a microcosm of our entire country."
Thanks to rival professional basketball teams, Indiana and New
York have often been at odds. When the New York Knicks played the
Indiana Pacers in the NBA playoffs in recent years, a New York
tabloid announced the series as "Knicks vs. Hicks."
But on a basketball court in Bloomington, on a day not far
removed from one of the worst tragedies in American history, people
were seeing far beyond the name calling and taunts of a trivial
sports rivalry. They were seeing something they'd never seen from
the rowdy fans at Madison Square Garden.
"I didn't think people there really cared," said 15-year-old
Lindsay Edwards, taking a break from a pick-up game with her
family. "But a lot of those people care a lot more than I thought
they did."
Curiousity has me whether any ten-car trains
were underground on the tracks in the areas of
CHAMBERS-> SOUTH FERRY and -> back to CHAMBERS.
Are any subway car/consists unaccounted for on 1/9?
If there were any below ground, could it be that
these trains are within the tunnels, hosting
numerous (??) survivors as passengers?
A friend of mine who is a train operator says that there was an N or R train at Cortland St (Or the Station just south of it). And there was a Path train in the WTC station during the attack. Has anyone else heard of this?
Actually, these stations would be affected when the WTC buildings have collapsed.
1) Was it an off-duty PATH train? (lights off, motors off, etc.)
2) Any incident of a damaged train would occur during "a split second of the incident". Since Subway trains move pretty quickly, chances are that the debris will fall through the entrances of the station, and the train would leave.
UNLESS if thick debris were falling while a train was entering the station.
3) SubTalkers here say that the PATH WTC station (and the tubes near it) are completely flooded. Flooded with debris? every nick and cranny?
Answers will be greatly appreciated.
: |
Railfan Pete.
completely flooded. Flooded with debris?
Flooded with water. They've been hosing the wreckage down because of the fires that are were constantly flaring up and getting put out. Plus the rain too.
[PATH tunnels}completely flooded. Flooded with debris?
Flooded with water. They've been hosing the wreckage down because of the fires that are were constantly flaring up and getting put out. Plus the rain too.
The Times reports that there are six or seven inches of water on the tracks at Exchange Place. Engineers are trying to use concrete to "plug" the tunnel openings.
I wonder if this is being done with an eye to abandoning the tunnels.
wayne
Let's hope not, especially if the tunnels themselves are still sound.
Engineers are trying to use concrete to "plug" the tunnel openings.
If they do that, how will they break down the wall again to resume service?
: |
Railfan Pete.
Engineers are trying to use concrete to "plug" the tunnel openings (at Exchange Place)
If they do that, how will they break down the wall again to resume service?
Just jackhammer through them, I'd presume. Not that there's any real rush. I wouldn't expect to see any resumption of PATH service to WTC (or whatever it'll be called) for several years, at least.
I think it would be appropriate to assume that at least one 1/9 train was between South Ferry and WTC, and that most likely a C train was at WTC. I would also make the assumption that there was at least one PATH train under the WTC. Since all these lines have terminals near there, it's very likely that at least one train was either at the terminal, or close to it.
The IND stations survived intact, albeit with quite a bit of dust. I have heard that the "N" and "R" lines have lost two trainsets, PATH has lost one. Haven't heard anything about the IRT other than that the Cortlandt Street station has been destroyed.
wayne
I set of R62 are now gone, they were crushed under. I got this info from a signal mantaner I know. I don;t know the numbers.
Robert
>1 set of R62 are now gone,
>they were crushed under.
>N and R have lost two trainsets
Have these been inspected/evacuated?
Absent from public accessibility there's
still the radio communication to Control
(Center?) tho, I reckon, with the provision
of a tunnel emergency exit chute the
inhabitants would have likely been able to
escape from within...
Granted, losses much greater than a trainset
have occurred in this incidentus, and I acknowledge
these tragic humane losses..
This text was posted solely out of conversational curiousity.
Thanks & My Respects.
Why couldn't they get all the trains out of there in time? I guess power went out.
Ground vibrations is my guess...
....Someone posted about a T/O on the 2
whom was able to reverse direction and
move their train back into Wall St.
to evacuate from the last car (regardless
of facing all-red signals and tripcocks up).
I saw 2 R32s on the Q Express this morning covered in World Trade Center like dust. Only 2 cars of the 10.
I have heard of only one trainset being damaged on the #1 line. This was due to flooding (water over the floors) and not due to a tunnel collapse. I've heard of absolutely nothing to suggest that any B division cars were damaged. Since there was no reported damage to any of the B division tunnels, I don't know where such damage would have come from.
OK, that is good enough for me for now.
All this confusion - could lead to speculation. Of course, if there IS anything to report, I am sure it will be duly reported here.
wayne
It's amazing, considering what happened, that the subways didn't suffer much worse damage, or loss of life.
I crossed Manny-B that morning with a guy that said he was in a train when the tunnel started to fill with smoke and dust, and that they had to leave via an emergancy exit. he seemed a bit nutty though (didn't even know what bridge he was on... !) so i wouldn't bet cash on this 411.
Today I took the N21 to Flushing. The bus was pretty crowded the whole way in. Coming up Northern Blvd in Bayside you usually see the twin towers of the WTC. But nothing.
Flushing was very, VERY busy. Lots of people doing food shopping. Old Navy is open, and so is the very nice 4 floor World Journal store. I walked down to Collage Point Blvd and could see the plume of smoke rising where WTC used to stand. I have to say it looks like half the skyline is gone without those towers. It doesn't even look like NY.
I took a short ride on the 7 train to Woodside. The smoke plume was very visible from Woodside and you could smell that burning plastic smell. I then took a 7 back. The train was emptier than usual. I spoke to several people I know in Flushing, who said many are afraid to return to Manhattan. Later I took an N20 to Szechuan express in Greenvale where the woman there said you have to wear masks in Chinatown. They've had some power problems, and although business are open it isn't too busy, only some people that live there are walking about, and police are still asking for ID.
So until that smoke goes away, that might not be for another week, I will avoid Manhattan. It appears alot of people are doing so. Also alot of people were telling me that Flushing is getting alot of people from Chinatown coming. It was busier there than I ever seen it before. And there were American flags everywhere. On fancy cars, economy cars, all kinds of nationalities. Asians, Whites, Blacks, Hispanics, Arabs, are all banding together. AFter cooling off I apologize for bad mouthing arab-americans. They are just as upset as we are. We must unite and be strong. God bless America!!!
Are you avoiding Manhattan because of the smell? I ask because I haven't smelled the smoke on the Upper West Side since Wednesday.
Frankly, anyone who's afraid to return to Manhattan is silly -- and is letting the terrorists win.
Qtrain is afraid to leave his front yard, me thinks.
it only smelt in queens on wed, when the wind shifted this way. the smell downtown is mild by comparison to what it was tues & wed.
for all them folks to afraid to enter NYC: I never left. I doubt 3/4ths of the folks on this board who live here left either.
it could happen anywhere, any time. the N20, the LIRR, the NJT... anywhere. you could get hit by a car on your corner. it's the same sh*t. get over it, or be its prisoner.
Heck, I took a downtown A through Cranberry and an uptown 2 through Clark and hardly smelled anything out of the ordinary.
Hey I'm just not ready to go back to Manhattan yet. Seeing the Twin towers collapse puts a large psychological toll on someone. I'm not afraid to leave my front yard. I go to Flushing, Hempstead, all over Nassau and Queens. But I'm NOT READY to go to Manhattan yet. Many others I spoke to today in Flushing felt the same way.
Of course I'll visit Manhattan again, but not yet. As far as the smoke goes, I'm beginning to smell it here in Sea Cliff, I may have to close the windows.
Also I should be moving by the end of the month, and really need to focus my energies on that.
It took me 5 days just to handle seeing the embattled NYC skyline for myself. It probably will take me a week to be ready to enter Manhattan for the first time since this horrific disaster. I have smoke and dust allergies too, and would prefer to wait until that crap is out of the air. Any guesses on when the fire will be put out? Reminds me of those oil fires during the Gulf war, they just keep burning and smoldering. And no, I don't own any masks, and they must be pretty hard to buy right now with such high demand for them.
Once again: there is no smoke in the air in most of Manhattan.
What you're smelling in Sea Cliff is undoubtedly something else.
...but your always posting about a fear of this, that or the other thing, or so it seems.
The only way to get over it is to go for it. I sure as hell didn't want to develop the 4 or 5 rolls of film i took that day, but i knew the sooner it got done, the less i'd dread what i might see.
nyc is more or less normal, outside of the odd train detours going on. just stay north of canal, and everything will look pretty much normal (though there are other odd sights to see - like a string of state police cars on 32nd. street - i guess they're all staying in hotels right there nearby.
at www.nytimes.com/library/national/met_subway_damage_00.html is shown the closed stations and a companion route map.
Looking over the official changes, I am wondering why the city never made this change?
Have the 5 Terminate at South Ferry.
Reasoning - After Bowling Green, the 5s that don't go to Brooklyn use the South Ferry Loop. According to track maps, the 5 can exit Bowling Green proceed South to the South Ferry Loop, switch to the outer track instead of the inner track, utilize this station, then when departing, cross over to the inner track and then cross back to the Lexington Line and serve Bowling Green.
Concerning the streets, there should be a LOT of traffic cops down there, as it will probably be very congested.
B"H
so, what do you propose to serve the very busy flatbush/nostrand ave line in bklyn?
thats why the 5 wont turn at sf.
just my $.02
The 5 only runs to Brooklyn rush hours. At other times it could serve South Ferry. But it's still not clear to me if Redbirds can safely stop there.
I've seen Redbird #2 trains going to SF in emrgency situations- for example, disabled train on the S/B express tracks near Chambers.
Did they stop there or just pass through?
That's a good question. I just assumed they stopped at SF, as there were passengers onboard when it pulled into Rector, and they didn't seem upset (like I'd expect them to be if they'd got on at Cortlandt St S/B and expected to get off at SF)
But you never know. I wouldn't have assumed that the gap fillers would be diffrent at Union Sq. vs. SF. But you never know.
One way or the other, we need service at SF- if its R62s, so be it.
How about sending the 6 to South Ferry like it ran many years ago when the 5 is running to Brooklyn?
Tunnel capacity between Brooklyn Bridge and Bowling Green would be a problem. An alternative would be to run a split service, with the Diamond 5 -- Lexington Ave. thru express to Flatbush rush hours and the circle 5 - Dyre Ave. train to SF all times except for late nights, when there would be track capacity for the 6 to run from BB to SF.
Flatbush Ave. riders would lose some Lexington Ave. service, but not all of it.
This sounds very reasonable- they ought to do it.
How about sending the 6 to South Ferry like it ran many years ago when the 5 is running to Brooklyn?
That would involve running both the local and express on the same track between BB and BG. There isn't enough capacity, especially since they will be going extra slow in that area.
The extension of the 6 to South Ferry was during the night and midnight hours, when there was only 1 express service running. They used to run the shuttle onto the inner loop, when both expresses were running to Brooklyn and the outer loop was maxed out.
You can't use the inner loop anymore unless you modify a couple of cars so that only their center doors would open.
There's no need to use the inner loop. The 1 isn't running to South Ferry, so 5 trains are free to switch to the outer loop.
Switch trains to the outer loop entering SF, switch them back to the inner and to Bowling Green after the stop. Problem is, what do we do about rush hour when the 5 goes to Bklyn? Perhaps send the 6, or reimplement the SF Shuttle, if the tracks are still usable.
The 4, 5, and 6 couldn't possibly share the same tracks from Brooklyn Bridge to Bowling Green.
The shuttle might be an option, but it seems pointless to me. Bowling Green and South Ferry are about three minutes apart by foot. It would take longer to wait for another train than to just walk. Besides, as someone pointed out, the shuttle platform at Bowling Green is not currently in usable condition.
I THINK(correct me if I am wrong) the SF Shuttle only has access to the INNER loop. It would also require modification of a carset to only open the center doors.
wayne
No. A train on the shuttle platform can switch to the outer loop.
If the 1 is going to be out for years would it make sense to have the 5 run thou South ferry on weekends only. For the next few months there won't be many tourist but in 6 months or so the station could be of some use on weekends only.
I agree that the 5 might as well stop at South Ferry when it's passing through the station anyway -- weekends as well as middays. And nights, the 6 could be extended without much difficulty. But rush hours it's just not worth it to run a shuttle.
In that case, they ought to re-start the shuttle (to the outer loop). While the distance isn't great, in cold weather, it can be pretty awful, even for a fit person.
For an older and/or disabled person, that distance can be pretty long. What's wrong with the shuttle platform at Bowling Green? The tiles are on the wall, and the platform was probably used little if at all after 1977 or so...
It would also have to reverse direction at South Ferry. Not too big of a deal since such a service would have those tracks all to itself.
Oh, damn! I think you're right! I forgot. I bow to your superior rail knowlege. (bows) I forgot that. And, I think the inner loop can only handle like 4 cars.
It's not so much an issue with the inner loop. AFAIK the inner loop can accommodate a full-length train. The shuttle platform at Bowling Green can only handle a 2-car train or thereabouts. OTOH because of the extremely sharp curve on the inner loop, a train can only open its center doors, something not possible on today's equipment without modification.
Gary Wengeroff, that is a good idea. The No. 6 train should go to South Ferry in the meantime until they can restore 1/9 service to South Ferry.
#3 West End Jeff
Cheaper than causing congestion, they could block and clamp the switches from B Loop to A loop, and run an absolute block shuttle from B.G. to S.F. mimicing the SS trains of the past. No congestion at all and CED would sacrifice 2 cars for this service.
Unnecessary. How many people would cross under and back up and wait for another train rather than walking across the park?
>How many people would cross under
>and back up and wait for another train
>rather than walking across the park?
Uhh... I makes 1.
This is mass transit. One interested party is not sufficient (although the Grand Street shuttle buses come close). Take a cab if you like.
>Take a cab if you like.
Riiiiiiight... Suuuure....
Only if you're paying, pal.
Tho, I honestly WOULD crossunder and wait
for another train... there's a certain
allure which keeps me drawn to subway trains
and not to BUSES nor CABS nor _______!
And I know I'm not alone in this aspect.
Do you realize that it's about a three-minute walk?
I would ride it, once, just as I rode the three Grand Street shuttles (one subway, two bus) once each (well, twice, in the case of the subway -- round-trip).
David, I really believe that in winter, this service would get used. They ran the SF shuttle for 60 years or so- I doubt it was unused all that time.
True, it probably didn't get the use of the West Side Line, but I bet under the circumstances, it could be justified. It's better than NO service when you get off the ferry.
Thank You MainR36WF.
Do you really think enough people would use it to justify the expense? It needs a dedicated short trainset and two T/O's (shuttles can't go through the loop to turn). I assume construction will be necessary to restore access to the shuttle platform. Etc. And all that for rush hour service only; at other times either the 5 or the 6 can stop at South Ferry.
Since neither of us has numbers to work with, I think we'll just have to agree to disagree. Let's just say that I'd rather see my money used more productively.
I think the MTA should consider diverting at least some of the No. 5 trains to South Ferry at rush hour -- either the Diamond 5 to 238th St. or the Circle 5 to Dyer -- and run the other one to Flatbush, while running all non-rush and weekend Circle 5s to SF. While the walk from the termial to Bowling Green isn't that bad this time of year, come December and January the cold and wind blowing across the bay and Battery Park can make that walk really, really unenjoyable.
That's a good idea if Brooklyn 5 ridership is light enough to support it.
It's not a good idea if it results in overcrowding on the 5 to Brooklyn (and the 4 and 2).
I don't know the numbers, although I could guess.
I would think running the Diamond 5 to South Ferry would work, since it's a rush-hour based express run desinged primarily for The Bronx. There probably aren't too many riders going from White Plains Road to Nostrand Ave. and back each day, so running the Lexington Ave. thru-express from South Ferry to 238th St. during AM-PM rush, the regular No. 5 train to SF during midday, weekend and evening hours and the No. 6 overnights shouldn't affect Brooklyn service that much.
It would mean AM crowding on the South Ferry platform because there just wouldn't be as many trains for passengers coming off the Ferry. But the MTA could come up with a partial solution by putting a five-car stop marker in the tunnel north of the SF station, so that the C/R could open the rear five cars' doors on the No. 5 train after opening the front five to take on and discharge passengers.
But all (well, most) rush hour 5's currently go to Brooklyn. Will half the current service (i.e., only the Dyre trains) suffice for Brooklyn riders?
Basically, the question is which will cause the greater headache: cutting Brooklyn 5 rush hour service in half or requiring all South Ferry rush hour passengers to walk (keeping in mind that many of those who arrive at Bowling Green on a 4 or Brooklyn-bound 5 will walk and that many arriving by boat at South Ferry will walk to Bowling Green for the shorter waits there). I don't know the answer but I have my suspicions.
A lot of this is going to depend on how long it takes the N/R service at Whitehall to resume. If it's only a month or so, Staten Island Ferry passengers can use those trains to get uptown (although those narrow stairs and platforms are going to be a problem). If it turns out there's some tunnel and/or building damage along Church Street that keeps the N/R shut for more than two months, then the MTA may think about split 5 service, once winter starts rolling around -- It may seem trivial now, but remember, Pataki's in charge of the MTA overall, and people on Staten Island tend to vote Republican, unless they're really pissed off come the 2002 election.
The shuttle platform at Bowling Green is OOS at the present time for asbestos abatement.
-Stef
But the other platform isn't doing too much these days, and there
are crossovers at both ends
Only an R62 and R62A's doors will line up with the gap fillers.
Even though you make a good point, You would have to realize
1.The inconviene of many passengers who work on the West side and live In Staten Islnd.
2.The truth that Cortland street and Rector street is destroyed and will be abandoned.
3.The POSSBLE abandoning of South ferry(If we remember this service is very similar to the service pior to 1978).
4.The lost of MTA money(or the wasting of Warbonds whichever) to modify the 5 fleet(IIRC the 5 only has 3-5 R62a's unless the 5 is going to use some R142's).
I strongly doubt the IRT Cortlandt and Rector St. stations will be 'abandoned'. They may be replaced by a single ultra-large relocated station, but certainly West Side local IRT service at the WTC will continue. Admittedly, it may be some time before the Cortlandt St. station is open for passengers.
1. It would help people from si.
2. Although they are destroyed they are likely to be rebuilt(Maybe they will put a normal terminal in place of the sf loop)
3. There always was the 1 and it's predecessors
The IRT line between Chambers and South Ferry will be rebuilt/repaired. There's no question about that. Without it, capacity on the entire line up to the Bronx is severely reduced.
I certainly hope the line is re-built, but seeing is believing. I AM concerned they might find some reason not to.
At the very least, they have to turn back the 1/9. You MUST have something south of the Chambers St. station to do this.
As a practical matter, it's the stations that are wrecked, not the alignment. The trackbed is still there.
Are you suggesting they are going to amputate 50% of the West Side IRT service? Are you saying the Zabar's/Fairway crowd would take this quietly?
http://www.mta.nyc.ny.us/emergency/emernyct.htm#subway
From the MTA website
To know me is to know my website...
The Romiosini Hompage
Ok. I am well aware that the intense heat of the airliners jet fuel brought down the WTC. I just have a question and I want to get as many different opinions possible:
Is there some way Jet Fuel could be "reconfigured" so it would not be so volatile? Yeah I know it means probably changing around EVERY jet engine on this planet. When I used to fly planes I was told that you could throw a a lit match into a bucket of Jet Fuel and it would not ignite, it is the vapors that make it explode. So why not alter the formula of Jet Fuel? I know there is (or was) an engine that ran on WATER but it was the size of a house making it inefficient.
If this question has been asked before Im sorry for the disruption. I have not been on much because...well..you know.
Anthony
I don't know the answer to your questions, but I do know that it's not the fuel that ignites when a match is thrown into it, it's the vapor that does the work. That said, there probably is some kind of way they can make fuel less volatile etc... but the price of doing this would unfortunately be so high, that it just wouldn't make sense.
I know about the Fuel-Vapor thing. But if altering Jet Fuel will cost us lots of $$ then Im for it. I dont care if they take 1/2 of my paycheck for research, but if it means saving lives then it is worh it.
Anthony
Jet Fuel is not as volatile as regular gasoline. The people who fuel airplanes regularly smoke while doing it. Once ignited though, it is very hard to put out.
That's correct, once Jet Fuel is ignited it will burn like the dickens, and of course burns at very high temperatures.
BMTman
What vehicles use dickens for fuel? Is it sold by the Gallon or litre? Do the manufactures of dickens add a dye to it for tax purposes?
avid
Dickens is rather rare and is only available through a dealer named Charles...
Thanks avid...I needed that...;-)
BMTman
I think it replaced Whale Oil, but it cost a whole lot more!
LOL
avid
I believe they tried to reconfigure jet fuel a few years ago. They ran a test down here in Lakehurst NJ and was a total and dismal failure. The additive they came up with actually made the fuel burn hotter. Thay crashed a full size jet into barricades.
Jet fuel (kerosene) is actually the one of the least volatile of hydrocarbon fuels (except maybe Bunker C oil). It is less volatile than gasoline, and requires "atomization" prior to ignition in a jet engine's core. However, it is still volatile enough to cause problems during a crash.
How do we make the fuel safer without making it impossible to burn in the engine? If it doesn't burn at all, the plane won't fly.
Water has been used for injection into turbojets to allow very high-altitude flights. I've never heard of water being the primary fuel.
Yeah I saw it on TV a few years back. And I think I stated this before that the engine designed to run on water was the size of a house. But I think something must be done before something like this before happens again
In addition to the massive amount of heat that brought the towers down, I also heard that the north and south towers supported each others, and that was another thing that led to the collapse too.
Since the owner said that he will rebuild (he has terrorism insurance, maybe there is a better way to build the new trade center. I sure as heck would not suggest 2 110-story buildings...maybe 4 55-storied ones instead. -Nick
Each tower had its own foundations. The one was independent of the other structurally, as was demonstrated on live television.
The foundations are probably intact. For this reason, the new WTC will likely rise up on the footprint of the old (foundations for 100+ story buildings are very expensive to build, so there is ample motivation to use said footprint).
I'm pretty sure the engineers and architects are ready to rebuild another 20 or 30 stories higher on the current foundations (30 years of engineering knowledge has accrued since).
To go beyond 2000 feet (including mast) would require an Act of Congress.
I spoke to one PA engineer who worked at the Trade Towers, and he said that they will most likely rebuild to the original architecture. The only difference that you will or won't see is that the construction will be built to a way that is similar to the Empire State Building where there are not beams supporting just the outsides. These towers collapsed due to the heat from the explosion which caused the outer shell beams to melt causing the pancake effect. I am sure that with the money coming in, there will be no way that the WTC towers 1 and 2 will be less than the old 110 story buildings.
One other thing I must mention is that TV stations are now thinking twice about using just the twin towers as the base of their operations. All of the channels except channel 2 were off the air. Channel 4 came back on Thursday from the Empire State Building. The rest came back to full power on Sunday except 5 and 9. Like me, if you don't have cable, you are stuck in a sense with limited channels to watch.
There was a time that the air signal was a priority to TV stations. In this day and age of cable, that is not true anymore. As many people tell me, you GOTTA have cable.
With digital TV coming soon, the old analog broadcast will be a thing of the past. New technologies will be in place to prevent this from happening again.
The digital broadcast will still have to come from somewhere.
Do you have any clue how the Towers were built? There were NO interior columns, save the central core with the elevator shafts. The outer shell of the building was structural (think FL9). The airplane hitting the building took care of the outer shell. The inner core was then the principal support, since 1 or 2 of the 4 sides were gone. The intense heat of the jet fuel fire caused the central core columns to fail; the floors then had the support of what was left of the exterior. Once the FIRST of the floors started to cave, it was all she wrote. The lack of support for te existing weight, plus the weight of the floor above, plus the gravity-induced acceleration of the floor above, resulted in what CDI would call a perfect collapse. The building pancaked, generally staying within an area 2x its own footprint. It couldn't have come down any better if it had been planned. Unfortunately, the building was also on fire.
-Hank
The impact of fuel traveling at about 400 Plus mph would create a vapor cloud that would ignit in an instant, no additive could prevent that.
Dust cloud in grain mills or coal dust are potential explosives and they are solids, so imagine want a fapor cloud of fuel would do with a spark.
Had the entire fuel supply been able to vaporize beor impact the damage would have been exponentially worse.
Fuel bombs, and there are such things in the ordanance of many nations are know as the poor mans nuke.
avid
All it would take is one spark from the rubbing of metal, or a severed electrical connection to set the gasoline afire. If you have seen the impact on tower #2, you'll notice the explosion didn't happen until 1-2 seconds after initial impact, after much of the plane had entered the building. Which means that the passangers of that plane knew they had crashed into a large building before burning to death!!!
If you have seen the impact on tower #2, you'll notice the explosion didn't happen until 1-2 seconds after initial impact, after much of the plane had entered the building. Which means that the passangers of that plane knew they had crashed into a large building before burning to death!!!
I would imagine that the airplane basically disintegrated upon impact with the tower's outer steel columns. What entered the tower was probably airplane debris, no longer what you could describe as an airplane. Most likely, the passengers died immediately upon impact.
I would agree. Some of them, looking out their windows, may have seen how low they were flying...I only hope they didn't have enough time to let reality sink in.
Most of the fuselage was intact as it exited the building on the opposite size. The nose was clearly visable before the gasoline exploded.
This is what should be done.
Forget confusion for a while and differentiate the routes of circle and diamond Qs. Circle Q Bway lcl-60th-QB lcl-Continental. Diamond Q Bway Exp-63rd-QB exp-179. What do you think?
Uh, that runs two Q trains on Q Boulevard. So, the service plan on Queens Boulevard would be: E,F,G,Q,< Q >? Seems silly to me...
No room on the Queens express tracks for E, F, diamond-Q.
I suppose it would be possible if the E were temporarily suspended. The C would then be reinstated in its entirety. I guess I should be happy with that, as I've been harping on the C all day, but the TA pays more attention to Queens Boulevard than to CPW.
The could run the C to Eastern Parkway, but probably not worth the congestion it would cause.
Hmmm. C express to Eastern Parkway? That might work. The center track is good for turning, and the J isn't running express anymore (apparently). But will the C, J, and M fit comfortably across the bridge? Probably; the Q, Q, and W fit on the Manhattan Bridge, and they run more often. (But headways are changing. Rats.)
Let's just hope they don't have a relay problem like what happin when I was on the V Train that was stuck near 67 Ave for 4 Minutes b/c of a train have a problem on the relay tracks.
If anyone here needs some pictures of the Twin Towers. Go to WEBSHOTS.COM and do a search of user TONY3271 (Thats me). Or just type in WTC in the Search bar. And you can see my pictures along with others
also, in case you didn't see this from before, but I put a collection of the shots from this site at http://muq.com/~pirmann/wtc/
Thank You David.
According to the TA's website, the "W" becomes a 24/7 operation in Manhattan, and the "G" does NOT turn at Church.
N replaced by W in Manhattan and Queens, M in brooklyn!! R replaced by Q local or express i forgot which one! From Continental to Coney island i believe. R is suspended i think. J Train goes to 95th!! Then E going to Euclid and so on. 1 is local to 96 and exp to 14. 2 goes back to flatbush and nostrand via local and bypassing parkplace! Check the Website!
I guess there are more patronage along the West End line the reason W is 24/7 to Astoria and the M along Sea Beach. If the statistics are all equal then I would've have the M remain on West End 24/7 and leave the N as is but over the bridge so as to cause the least amount of confusion.
This past week we've seen at the Times Sq station:
Q on local with N on exp track
2/3 on local with 1 on exp track
The most current info on the TA site says that the trains are running pretty much normally. I guess they drained Park Place.
To any and all who have to go to Manhattan tomorrow morning:
Keep in mind there are changes and rerouts. Some will change without warning. Some of the postings read in this websiite are going to be changed or be wrong.
Tomorrow morning keep an open mind on what is and what is not running. Leave the house earlier than you would normally. Keep in mind other ways to go from point A (home) and point B (work). Be ready to take another way to go. Chances are there may be another need for subway trains suspended because of vibrations. There are some building around Ground Zero that are very shaky.
If you are not needed at work or can take some time off or have nothing better to do, STAY OUT OF LOWER MANHATTAN!
Any employees who have to work down there should call
Command to find out if your job is open. If your station is closed, you'll probably be working EXTRA. Maybe assigned else where or work gates or WAA.
I won't be near lower Manhattan anytime soon. If I do visit Manhattan this week it will be upper Manhattan or midtown. And I'm afraid of getting stuck there due to subway service suspensions, so I probably won't be back till at least next week.
When you sign your surrender, I hope you realize that regular mail services from the US do not serve Kabul.
See the brand new map here.
That was quick!
It looks like the errors that crept into the July edition are mostly history.
I wonder if it will be printed as well.
Oops, I caught two mistakes already: the 2/3, not the 1, will be stopping at 18th Street, and the Q as well as the W will be stopping at 5th Avenue and Lex.
The extra line for the diamond-Q on Brighton has been eliminated, and it's omitted on Broadway as well.
It looks like the J Marcy-Myrtle express run is suspended.
Stillwell is now served by the F, M, Q, and W. Anyone working from a three-month-old map will be quite confused.
Yet they added an extra red line on Bway for the 2/3 as opposed to the 1. Strange.
Probably to emphasize the swap. Might reduce the confusion just a hair.
I'm tempted to walk up to 96th tomorrow to watch the massive confusion as all trains pull in on the wrong platforms and nobody knows where to go. (At 86th there won't be any confusion -- everyone will get on whatever pulls in, figuring it was a mistake.)
Right about that.
There's also a blue 'C' in a circle on CPW although none of the stations list it.
Jeez, so many errors! I guess there are probably no subtalkers working in the map drawing department at the MTA....
It probably will. Just take a week or 2 before copies make it to the booths.
There's something chilling about looking at the new map and seeing all that white space on the lower left corner of Manhattan.
I know! That was the weirdest thing about looking at the new map. They should at least have kept those stops on the map and printed "Closed" under them to let people know they're still there, especially those stops that are simply being bypassed.
The whole thing, including the loss of subway service, is just beyond horrendous. I hope the IRT tunnel gets re-built ASAP.
I saw a red/white notice saying that the Park Place station (and/or Chambers St I forgot) will open this wednesday Sept 19.
Oh, that's terribly strange.
I think New Yorkers will figure it out. Doesn't the massive fuss they were making about the MB flop look silly now?
(Doesn't the massive fuss they were making about the MB flop look silly now?)
No. It's sad.
Prosperity had led to rising expectations. People began to expect, and demand, better transit, decent schools, etc. If they didn't quite have the knowledge to correctly perceive the MB situation, they at least had the impetus to say that the political parasites ought to provide better than they have. The Second Avenue subway as also part of that.
I hope people will not become resigned to the bad deal we have and move out. I hope they will instead decide we can't afford the bullshit anymore and demand more than before.
i can only wonder how long all the reroutes will run. seeing them all on the map really solidifies it into "reality"
I imagine the the BMT route through the Montague tunnel will be back in service once the recovery phase of this operation closes and buildings over it check out or are brought down, if needed. Every report I've seen says the line is basically intact.
The only line really requiring extensive repairs is the #1 branch to South Ferry.
Those errors are gone, but there's some interesting things (not necessarily errors) to see in the new map. Among them:
1. The Q is not shown as stopping at Lexington/59th or 5th Avenue. Might be hard for the Q to skip those stops without express tracks there.
2. The 1 is terminating at 14th Street. So how can it stop at Hoyt Street in Brooklyn?
3. The M is shown with a bold letter at all 4th Avenue stops. I guess the M will not make express stops in southern Brooklyn like the N did.
4. All Broadway and Brighton line stops have a bold Q under them. I hope they're not completely ending express service along Broadway and Brighton.
The MTA might want to check those before sending the new map to print. But overall you get the jist of what's in store for tomorrow and the weeks (maybe months) to come.
I didn't catch Hoyt, but that means that whoever planned this initially did consider running the 1 to New Lots and only later decided to run the 1 express and the 2/3 local.
That would have been better and they would have been able to retain 1/9 skip-stop service.
My impression is that skip-stop service was never much appreciated on the 1. I wouldn't be surprised if it stopped for good last Monday.
Three weeks ago, I was wandering through the WTC mall and I stopped to take a picture of an erroneous sign above the door to the uptown 1/9: it listed the 1 but not the 9. It may be correct now (that is, once the 1 returns to South Ferry) -- but it took the destruction of the sign in question to correct it.
what the hell? The 1 is express and the 2/3 are local?
the N--->M, R--->J
This should prove interesting, especially since the people won't have the platforms filled with station conductors like they did for the Manny B switch.
How do I retrieve a colourspace error?
Acrobat says it can't get 'cs9' and shows only grey and black: extra ghostly, albeit unintentionally so . . . .
Make sure you have the latest acrobat reader... most times that is the problem
That's most likely the trouble here - unfortunately, YT is at a branch of easyeverything (you have one in Times Sq, no?) and re-setting the machine kills all downloads and sets up a standard config for next user, so updating acro no go . . . .
AWWWWWWWW...Shite.
I guess it back to work collecting new maps for the Subway Map Archive I have...
I have made a jpg of the new map... would anyone like me to post it to a web site?
BIG PRETTY PLEASE!
no prob its at:
http://www.htmlcenter.com/map/newsubwaymap.jpg
there ya go :)
no prob its at:
http://www.htmlcenter.com/map/newsubwaymap.jpg
there ya go :)
You're a gent, sir. That will do very nicely, many thanks.
Yes! I have a problem with it when it downloaded. All I saw was BLACK DOTS AND WHITE DOTS!
Snap!
I doubt they'll print this right away -- they may wait to see if the N/R line is restored in lower Manhattan quickly. That would put the BMT lines almost back to pre-disaster service.
Whatever happened to the Z train? Suspended from service?
How long will this service diversion reign the Subway?
: |
Railfan Pete.
The Z was suspended from service. The reason being was that J and Z trains are basically the same thing (heading against peak direction, Z trains become J trains) and the Z exists purely for the skip-stop service in East New York. When the J returns to terminating at Broad st, the Z will return.
Why can't they run skip-stop east of Myrtle now ? What does the southern terminus have to do with it ? The QJ ran skip-stop.
Lets not confuse the natives to much!
I'm still trying to cope with (Q) and , Duh....
avid
Perhaps this has been commented on, but I can't possibly read every message here, and if it isn't mentioned in the title I have no way of knowing that this has been reported on.
That said...
At roughly 8:30am on Tuesday Sept. 11, the Air controllers watching the skies had some idea that the first airplane that hit WTC was hijacked. They alerted the USAF of the situation. As most everyone knows, the first plane hit at 8:48am. By that time 2 F-15 fighters had been launched from cape cod. Unfortunately, they arrived too late to shoot down the second 767 that hit.
For those of you who don't know F-15 specifics: The F-15's launched were most likely F-15C models. The F-15C model is the fastest fighter in USAF service, capable of speeds of up to mach 2.5. They also have a missile that can destroy (accurately) targets at a distance of 40 miles. Unfortunately, shooting it from that range was most likely not an option (if a missile locks onto a plane, and a plane hits the building, where do you think the missile will go?).
3 F-16's were also scrambled in the Pentagon attack, again too late to do anything.
This is a serious flaw. While we have a carrier in our harbor right now, there wasn't one then, and it took the fastest fighters we have too long to get here. An improvement must be made to the defense of not only NYC, but all of the U.S. cities if they want to prevent similar attacks in the future.
I wonder why the sent them from cape cod. There is a large Air Force Base in western Mass. Closer to New York. It could have been a lot worse what if Canada launched a sneak attack the size of Pearl Harbor on New York Boston and other major cities.
Hmmm..
What designs would Canada have against America?
1) In 1940 Russia didn't think Germany would attack ether. You never know.
1.)I don't think we have to worry about Canada attacking the U.S. anytime soon.
2.) That base in western mass: 1. does it have fighters, 2. they had no idea that the terrorists were going to ram the Twin Towers with the jets.
1) In 1940 Russia didn't think Germany would attack ether. You never know.
2) I think so but I'm not sure.
I wonder why the sent them from cape cod. There is a large Air Force Base in western Mass. Closer to New York. It could have been a lot worse what if Canada launched a sneak attack the size of Pearl Harbor on New York Boston and other major cities.
Westover AFB north of Springfield (which is more central than western Massachusetts) is used by Air National Guard transport planes. I don't believe any fighters are stationed there.
A-10 ground attack aircraft are stationed at Bradley International Airport north of Hartford, but they're fairly slow and probably couldn't have gotten to NYC any faster than the F-16's from Otis.
For political reasons dating back to the Vietnam War era, much of the N.Y. metropolitan area has never been too keen on having military bases located nearby (remember the protests over the Navy's Homeport on Staten Island back during the Reagan Administration?). That thinking may have to change now, though it would be tough to see where you could find land in the area to build some sort of small Air Force base for regional air defense.
>>(remember the protests over the Navy's Homeport on Staten Island back during the Reagan Administration?).<<
Uh, no. I'm only 16.
Well, there were. Other than the Desert Storm parade in June 1991, New York and the military have been "cool" to each other since around 1966.
For political reasons dating back to the Vietnam War era, much of the N.Y. metropolitan area has never been too keen on having military bases located nearby (remember the protests over the Navy's Homeport on Staten Island back during the Reagan Administration?). That thinking may have to change now, though it would be tough to see where you could find land in the area to build some sort of small Air Force base for regional air defense.
There are Air National Guard units at Gabreski Airport on Long Island, about 75 miles east of NYC. I don't believe there are any fighter planes, however.
(It would be tough to see where you could find land
in the area to build some sort of small Air Force base for regional air defense.)
(There are Air National Guard units at Gabreski Airport on Long Island, about 75 miles east of NYC. I don't believe there are any fighter planes, however.)
Floyd Bennett Field. It is sitting there, with hangers rotting, right now, and the federal government already owns it.
Someone could make hay out of the fact that Washington and Boston were defended by airbases, but not NYC. I'd love to see the Democrats accuse the Republicans of pulling the military out of New York to protect jobs in their districts (true) and the Republicans accuse the Democrats of not want it (also true). But in politics, if everyone is guilty, no one is guilty.
New York once hosted several military facilities within the city lines. Manhattan Beach Air Force Station, Brooklyn Navy Yard, Nike missles battery at Fort Totten Queens, Fort Jay - Governors Island, Port Richmond, and a few other. They were reduced or closed due to the reductation of the military near large cities and the lacking of training air space within the city.
"Jet Noise - The sound of Freedom"
This is interesting. If the F-15's were launched at lets say 8:15, they had 21 minutes to get to NYC some 300 miles away. Mach 2.5 is VERY vast (1800 mph or so) and at that speed they could have gone 300 miles in some 10 minutes. Of course that speed is at altitude and you need to accelerate. I would love to see a little animation re: the relitive positions of the aircraft.
The closest fighters to New York are probably New Jersey Air National Guard** F-16's stationed at Pamona NJ (Atlantic City International Airport). The problem with those are that ANG jocks aren't on call 24/7 like regular airforce.
Does anyone know if there are CT ANG fighters stationed at Bradly International?
NY State or NJ should station ANG fighters closer to the city and maybe have someone on call 24/7. Maybe the Port Authority should have it's own fighter force.
**The NJ ANG gives out bumper stickers that say "My other car is an F-16".
"I would love to see a little animation re: the relitive positions of the aircraft. "
Check out the pictures at www.drudgereport.com . Apparently some video caught something streaking past the WTC a few minutes after the second plane hit. From what I read, the video has not yet been authenticated nor has any other video or pictures been produced to corroborate this one.
CG
An F-15 can go Mach 2.5 only in clean configuration, with no weapons. It's top speed with typical armament, is slower than that.
The kind of response being talked about here is difficult.
1) The hijackers could have chosen a plane from LGA, or some other airport. Response times would have still been excessive.
2) In the absence of clear instructions to begin with, a fighter pilot would be calling his superior on the ground for instructions. In this case that officer would have called his superior, in turn, for advice and so on.
Now, of course, we have a whole new ball game.
Does anyone know if there are CT ANG fighters stationed at Bradly International?
The ANG at Bradley has A-10 ground attack airplanes. They're pretty slow, probably slower than a 767.
THere used to be an Air National Guard in Roslyn. I don't think they stored any planes there. It recently closed and was purchased by East Hills. I wonder if the base will re-open.
Another thing, I am glad that someone was on the ball and that fighters were at least dispatched. Unless I am mistaken, to this day, fighters are stationed armed, fueled and ready to fly at Pearl Harbour in a symbolic effort to say "never again." Maybe this practice should be duplicated in the New York area.
There are always fighters that are fueled and armed to be launched at any time: It would take a ridiculous amount of time to load a plane and launch it. By then, the grounded flights nation-wide would have been in effect, and it would have been useless.
That won't be the case anymore. From here on out there'l be fighters on 15 minutes notice on standbye at bases throughout the country.
There already were, but it wasn't enough. Now, we have a carrier in our harbor, and planes on patrol above so it's not a problem now.
Again, I'll post the speeds of various fighters and roughly how long it would take the to travel a 300mi distance (300mi being the dist from NY to cape cod, from Jersey Mike) tomorrow.
That distance is a guess, I tried to overestimate.
That's going to be expensive. Of course, Congress is likely to cough up the money (part of this may be paid out of the new $20 billion defense appropriation). Maintenance, extra crews, extra spare parts, practice regearsals which use up a lot of supplies (in afterburner, the F-15 sucks fuel like it's going out of style).
Hey J Trainloco, I made a post thinking you were, god fobid, missing... the post got deleted, i think. But anyway, I thought that we spent too much money on the nation's defense and that all the money that's going in now, is just useless surplus, but I guess I was wrong.
>>Hey J Trainloco, I made a post thinking you were, god fobid, missing<<
Nice to know that you thought of me! All us Stuy kids are allright (aside from the fact they're making us share a building with Brooklyn Tech starting Thursday. The horror!) It seems that all of us subtalkers are okay.
>>But anyway, I thought that we spent too much money on the nation's defense and that all the money that's going in now, is just useless surplus, but I guess I was wrong.<<
Yeah. I thought we spent too much money on defense too. I mean, we weren't in war time and the U.S. had no visible enemies. I could never fathom that an attack of this magnitude and this simplicity was ever possible against the U.S. But, hell, I can't even fathom that whenever it is I return to Stuyvesant High School, as I walk down Chambers and look South down West Broadway, I will be able to see the sky. I watched the south tower fall from 4 blocks away and I still can't believe it.
I know some people who went to stuy and they saw up front the people jumping out of windows and the actual buildings collapsing. I go to Tech... welcome to hell... no escalators... 7 floors, no outside lunch, no air conditioning, no lockers left for you, *smirk* *smirk* ... I'm sure you guys will be "welcomed" to Tech.
According to the MTA post this evening at 9.00PM,There will be no more N Train, The M will replace the N on the Sea Beach,and the J on the R UNTIL FURTHER NOTICE, the Q will run to Continental, I wonder how Fred will react to this,I sent him a e mail on this
WTF!...
You serious?
Shite!
Yup,read the 9.00 posting on the MTA web site.
So now the 10PM update shows some more changes.
The 2 and 3 are now being shown as local from 96th St to Franklin St, but it still only says skipping Park Place.
So who let this latest copy go...under the J it lists it as "replacesing the R"
Isn't the J in fact replacing the R along 4th Ave?
I heard that the TA are taking all the Slant R40's off the and give them all the 75footer. I think that this meens there will there will be some R46's on the from the R and R68's from the N. There will also be R38's on the E, R32's & Slant R40's on the M & J. The R32's will be set up 3 and 5 for the C/R posion this is from a TSS's that I spoke to yesterday. The TA is putting up C/R boards on the N and R line below 36 Street Station over night. For what I heard there were alot of train trainsfers all over the city.
Robert
The show must go on.
The map on the website shows the changes
N: GONE (replaced by M in Bklyn)
R: GONE (replaced by J in Bklyn, and Q in Queens)
1: Express on Broadway
2/3: Local on Broadway
Q: Goes out to Continental instead of stopping at 57th St.
E: Takes the place of C in Manhattan/Brooklyn
Wow
whoever it was that wished someone 'put the n train out of it's misery' a week or so ago just got their wish.
I did it not expecting it to be a reality
y i oughtta.... there's a difference between me and Fred, I'm N he's strictly sea beach...
Is there any copy of this newest version "the map" being available in any station?
I wonder how Fred is doing now? I'm pretty sure he's gone balistic.
Well, the Sea Beach is back to going Broadway via Bridge, except that it's the wrong Broadway and it's the wrong bridge. But it's a start, anyway...
If he hasn't had a stroke first.
I was balistic when I first heard of it, but the Sea Beach still runs and I have to live with it. There are two qu estions now to be answered.
1. How long is this new configuration going to last? Is it temporary or permanent?
2. If it is the latter, then who the hell is going to buy me a M Sea Beach shirt and ship it out to me? Hell, my N shirt is now obsolte like Bob's D shirt.
We will keep the t shirts as momentos. I will not wear it again for a long time. The Q now follows the route of the old Brighton Local in the midand late 50s except using the new tunnel
No, the Q is using the 60th St. tunnel to Queens. Same as the good old days.
I was not sure. I remember in the late 50s taking the old Brighton Local from Rego Park to Kings Highway at least once a week, using old standards, but usually changed at 57th for the Express
I NEED TO BUY AN N SHIRT!!!! BEFORE THEY'RE GONE!!!
Maybe I can send you mine. Hell, it's obsolete and I miss the N Sea Beach already. The M as the Sea Beach? It's going to take a lot of getting used to.
Keep it as I said, it will be back by the time you are 80
Keep it as I said, it will be back by the time you are 80 N M X It is stillthe Sea Beach
This arrangement will remain in place until the BMT Broadway line in lower Manhattan reopens. As to when that will be is not known, but it is expected to reopen much sooner than its IRT counterpart.
There are posters, black and white, at some stations. Particularly at Prospect Park on the Q/Q/S Lines at the 24 hour exit. I was tempted to "borrow" but there were 2 cops.
Aha. So the circle Q is using the 60th St. tunnel, NOT the 63rd St. tunnel. And the diamond Q is still terminating at 57th. Gotcha. Kind of brings back the old pre-Chrystie St. Q and QB routes.
The pressing question is:
Will this continue on as long as the MTA shall exist?
If so, I would be really disappointed. I don't know for what reason, but the SUBWAY won't be the same anymore.
Just one question:
1) Why are the #2 and #3 - 7th Av. Exp. trains running LOCAL and the #1 - 7th Av. local is running EXPRESS?
So the 1 can terminate without getting in the way of the 2 and 3. (The express tracks are in the center, remember.)
Ok, thanks.
: )
Railfan Pete.
He'll say: Go M train!!!
OK, to make you look good. Says #4 Sea Beach Fred: "Go M Train."
The Myrtle-Slow Beach very local
And in keeping with the TA's current policy of naming services after Manhattan trunk lines, the M is now the Nassau St.-Sea Beach Local.
This emphasizes a point in an old argument about referring to the Sea Beach as "the N line" or the West End as "the B line" or whatever.
LETTERS ARE NOT LINES. THEY'RE SERVICES.
The Culver was the 5, then the D, then the F. But it is still the Culver.
The West End was the 3, then the T and TT, then the B and the M, then the W and the M, and now just the W. But it is always the West End.
And how about the "R" line in Brooklyn. Whoops! Now it's the J.
Don't even ask about the Brighton. Letter-wise, it's been reinvented more times than Al Gore. Al Gore ... hmmm ... I forget exactly who he was. Isn't he the host of "Politically Incorrect?"
He's a cross between a man and a coffee table, according to David Letterman.
Al Gore and the Brighton! What a combo. Guess who I think would be insulted by the comparison? A hint? It isn't human.
Al Gore
Lets keep domestic politics out of this, we all know who won the popular vote, and Georgie Porgie did call Gore back from Europe for the Memorial Services
Remember the "Uncle Al" bit from Rowan & Martin's Laugh-In? Alan Sues played Uncle Al, the kiddie's pal. That's what I think of whenever Uncle Al Bore is mentioned.
And at that you have a higher opinion of him than I do. Tell Bob that Bush did call back Gore from Europe for services. That was one mistake Bush made.
Gore was a very good VP and Senator before and quite experienced. Georgie Boy still has that cowboy mentality, but I am willing to give him a chance, Lets see what happens in 6 months
Yesterday (Sunday 9/16) the N, Q, and R were all running over the Manhattan Bridge. I'm surprised that I haven't seen any other posts mentioning this (- OK, I haven't read every one). I am also surprised that they are cancelling the N tomorrow and running the M via Sea Beach, instead of cancelling the W and running the N "via Bridge" and the M to Coney Island via West End. But Sea Beach Fred should be glad that "his" train made it back onto the bridge at least for a day (though surely he'd wish it could have been under better circumstances).
Yesterday's N and R via bridge was due to a previously scheduled GO.
More people ride the West End than the Sea Beach, so the West End should run to Midtown. Most West End passengers didn't use the M: it was slow, it didn't go to Midtown, and except rush hours it only ran one stop on the West End anyway (and it never ran all the way to Stillwell -- not in recent history, anyway).
The M mimicked what the TT used to do during rush hours.
It ran to Stillwell back when it ran on the Brighton
Dyre Dan: I'll take what I can get for the simple reason that I'm out here in California and have no say in the matter. What is that about beggars can't be choosy. But we will be on the Willy B for awhile so that is ok. We are, at least, on a bridge. But my N shirt is now obsolete. Do I dump it or wait until when and if the N is resurrected as the Sea Beach?
As I said keep it as a momento,they will be back
I guess someone could print NYC subway T-shirts with the new route patterns on it, though to be honest, even if it didn't have the black box saying September 17, 2001 like the MTA map does, it would still be a little ghoulish in some way.
If I have to ask:AWill the Q run local or express?
both in brooklyn, local queens and manhatten
The diamond Q is supposed to be running express in Manhattan since it terminates at 57th St.
What does "P-A" mean?
Oh, good, I'm not the only baffled body here . . . .
Parsons-Archer.
Surely that should have been JP-A?
No. Some stations have both street names and neighborhood (or other) names, and they seem to be used interchangeably.
Jamaica Center or Parsons-Archer
Coney Island or Stillwell Avenue
Lenox Terminal or 148th Street
Parkchester or 177th Street
Broadway Junction or Eastern Parkway
etc.
So I've noticed. On this occasion, P-A so looked like a new technical abbreviation, a la T/O or C/R . . . .
P-A also could be misintrepeted as standing for "Port Authority" as in the bus terminal, especially for any train running on the Eighth Ave. line.
Or for the WTC itself, for those who haven't looked out their windows in the past week.
Gotcha! and that's why the J has it too!!
Thanks!
Hi,
My name is Allen and I now live in Atlanta. I love the NYC subways and miss them more then even a square knish from the cart on the corner. I have been in atlanta for about 3 years now and everytime I come home, I have to ride on the subways. The MARTA just does not cut it for me. One line, two tracks, nothing exciting ever. Last time in NYC, I got to ride on the new "2" train. The conductor even let me ride with her in the cab. It was way cool.
I have been reading the nyc.transit and this msg board for as long as I can remember. However it was not until today that I registered. I felt I wanted to share something.
It is absolutely amazing to think about NYC. No other city in the USA or the world could deal with a tragedy like what happened. I know Atlanta couldnt. Our mayor would never do with Rudy did.
Even the subways have dealt with everything. To think that major stations have had problems and what do they do, they adjust. That would be the one thing I think NYC does best, adjust. No one does it so well.
I wish I could come to NYC to see and ride on the newly changed lines. I will be reading the messages to see how everything goes.
NY'ers may bitch a lot for this or that, but when trouble arises, there is nothing like having a NY'er on your side.
My first job out of college was at the WTC. It is sad to think that some of my old co-workers are gone.
Anyway, thanks for having this msg board where people who are out of nyc can still keep up with what is going on.
Thanks and god bless.
Allen
Allen, thanks for the good thoughts.
Just a quick note on a 'by invitation only' railfan trip to the beaches of Far Rockaway and Long Beach that took place Friday after work (9/14).
At 5:30 pm I met up with Andee (subwaysurf) outside my office. He had already been enjoying himself -- sh-tfaced drunk -- as we headed over to Jay Street-Boro Hall. At the head-end we met up with other SubTalkers, Paul (heypaul), Mike (RIPTA42hopetunnel), Dave Barraza, and a 'straggler', Thurston. With the exception of Paul, it was also a mini Shoreline Trolley Museum reunion (five of us are members).
Oddly enough we caught a consist of R-32's marked for the 'E' Line but with final destinations as Euclid Ave. (they were replacing 'C' trains???). We picked up another set of R-32's but it was a Lefferts Blvd. A train so bailed at Rockaway Blvd. in anticipation of getting a set of 38's heading to Far Rockaway (Mott ave.). Interesting aside: the T/O on the 32's was a young and attractive female w/very long hair (going down her back).
In any event, turns out the next train to arrive was a set of 44's with a destination of Rockaway Park. The group consencious was that we would take it to Broad Channel and wait one more time (hoping for that elusive set of R-38s). We lucked out as the approaching train was a set of 38's for Mott Ave. (Yippiee!!). Heypaul became salaam allah as he pressed his camera lens against the railfan window and got some good footage of the approach to 'Hammel's Wye' and the run to Far Rockaway. As we pulled into Mott Ave. a bizarre thing happenned: the T/O stopped the train about 3/4 into the station and stops because he sees something on the tracks. He opens the front door, goes down to the trackbed and throws a basketball up to the platform. At that point the crowd waiting for the train gives the T/O a rousing applause as if he is a returning war hero. And Paul was almost in position so that he might have gotten most of that action.
After that we JUST made it in time to board the 7:20 N33 bus to Long Beach. The ride was almost in darkness by this point, but it was pleasant and uneventful.
Once we disembarked at the LIRR Long Beach station, we began our walk to the beach and boardwalk. However, just as we were about to cross the street we were stopped by an older gentlemen who gave us candles and asked us to light them in memory of the WTC victims (to partake in the 7pm nation-wide vigil). We gladly obliged and walked south toward the boardwalk with our candles held high.
Although our original destination was closed (the Torquoise Bar and Grille) we were able to find a VERY good chinese restaurant on the main drag and had a great time trading stories and just sharing good company which helped all of us to 'vent' somewhat during this trying week (the Tsings Tao beer helped in that department...;-).
I wish to thank all the guys for showing up and hope that we can do that again sometime soon.
BMTman
Glad you all had a good time... Wish I could have been there.
-- David
Chicago, IL
Hope the BMTman doesn't mind but I changed the title a little.
It was more of a social gathering of friends then a Field Trip, i.e. the sights along the line were secondary (even though for some of us it was the first or a long time since they had seen this part of the system). I think we were just glad to all be alive & were eager for an opportunity to ride the subways togather enjoying each others company more then anything else.
On the Board Walk two sights were strange: One our destination was closed when they had told us it would be open until 10ish (there was a big candle light event happening in a park next to the LIRR station as we arrived0; second the sight of the six or seven Navy ships off the Coast; and third one of the residents of the King David was outside and wanted to talk to us strangers. At the end none of us were in a hurry to leave, but after a few hughs we went our separate ways.
When I dropped off the LI Bus #N15 & walked in the house my wife still couldn't understand why I had went.
Mr t
Here's a update on the Subway syaterm for tommorw until further notice.
The Q Local would run to 71 Ave. The Q Express would run Normal. Both Q's would run local on Broadway.
A would skip Chambers St and would go Local north of 145 St instead of going local north of 168 ST.
W would replace N service in queens at all times.
J and M would replace N and R service in brooklyn at all times.
For more info. Look at http://www.mta.nyc.ny.us/emergency/emernyct.html for more info.
I have always been a big fan of the Empire State Building. From the time I first saw King Kong as a two year old back in 1967 to the time of my first visit back in early 1971 when it was still the tallest building in the world, it has always been closest to my heart. When I saw the Twin Towers go up in the 1970s I viewed it as an usurper. The Empire State symbolized class and grace whereas the World Trade Center was cold and lifeless. Through the years I only went to its top twice whereas I've visited the Empire State many times. Now I wish I'd visited it (the Twin Towers) more often for in hindsight it was indeed a landmark, a representative of the very best in us. In that respect it will be missed.
Eric Dale Smith
Funny you should say that: when I was in NY, I visited ESB rather than WTC because I'd grown up with ESB's image from Geography textbooks. WTC was left 'til 'Next Time,' time being short on that visit. Carpe Diem . . . .
I must admit that it was one hell of a view but all you could see looking south were the Harbor and the ocean whereas from the ESB you could see everything.
Perfectly placed, too, for a view of the evening rush hour trains leaving LIC/HP Av . . . .
You can see the trains on the #7 Queens Blvd. viaduct from there too.
Now I wish I'd visited it (the Twin Towers) more often for in
hindsight it was indeed a landmark, a representative of the very best in us.
A landmark, yes, indeed, and a wonderful place to go up the top to.
Architecturally, however, the towers -- and the whole WTC in general -- was a wasteland, the worst of 60s brutalism. Those black buildings at the base were UGLY. How they were demolished makes us volcanically angry, but since they have been demolished, we'll do better this time.
What replaces it will hopefully be better, more friendly to the pedestrian -- and much nicer in the transit department.
Mark, I couldn't agree more.
I think that was what swayed my vote for ESB, in the end: more flavour, as it were . . . .
I'm gonna miss the WTC Mall, especially Borders. It was a hub, a happening place, and a good place to escape the heat of summer in NYC.
I met a group of Subtalkers down there the 25th of last month for the next to last day of the Newark PCCS. I can't imagine all of it being gone.
heh..
You used to hang ou tin WTC Borders too?
I also preferred the Empire State Building, although I've taken photos from both it and the WTC. I took my niece to the ESB three years ago instead of the WTC after she had arrived from Lithuania, explaining to her that the ESB is more famous even though the Twin Towers were taller.
Granted the Empire State Building is now the tallest building in NYC once again, but the way it happened is something I wouldn't wish on anyone. A tragic, incomprehensible default.
My thoughts exactly.
Seems they were able to get to the PATH station under WTC - see this article:
Click Here
Anyone seen any pix posted of Empire State Building lit Red/White/Blue as per the article?
Channel 4 News mentioned this as well. From what I've read in previous posts, the last passenger-carrying train was long gone by the time of the collapse and the crews got out safely on a layup. If everyone got out, then there would not be any sign of life.
wayne
So not finding anybody was, in a sense, good news. Everyone in that particular place had made it to safety.
So I have heard, unless someone happened to go down to the platform level after the crews had fled, then, in that case, they are lost.
wayne
Some people reported walking to Hoboken via the uptown tubes when the PATH was shut down. I suppose anyone who found their way to the WTC PATH station could have done the same.
The article is unclear in one respect. It says that searchers found some voids in the compacted debris in the station, but no signs of life. Does that mean they found any dead bodies?
Hi all,
Sent an updated subway map to Dave Pirmann, he should post it tomorrow since I just sent it around midnight NY time (I'm in Denver) I also wanted to thank Jose Soltren for taking the time to update my map!
Cheers,
Michael Adler
Mike the Mailman in Denver, ColorFUL Colorado
I'm putting up the new maps right now... Thanks!
This new map, Will it be available in all subway station soon?
Why am I still getting the July version? The page says -- updated 9/17/01, but the map is the old map.
You need to force your web browser to reload the image.
Try holding down various modifier keys while you click the Reload or Refresh button.
I know that there are countless shops throughout New York City selling
souvenirs ranging from post cards and t-shirts to building replicas
and toy Yellow taxicabs. Is it likely that World Trade Center related
souvenirs will still be sold, or will they be removed from store
shelves and discontinued? I don't think any tourists now would want to
send post cards showing the Twin Towers to their friends and families
back home.
Twin Towers cards are selling like hotcakes - they are becoming collectors' items.
Stores on Canal St. selling I SURVIVED THE TWIN TOWERS ATTACK T-shirts.
That is really in bad taste considering 5,000 people are still missing. Leave it to a few who are taking advantage of what happen and making a profit. I rather wear a t-shirt saying "I'm not afraid, because I'm an AMERICAN!"
Leave it to a few who are taking advantage of what happen and making a profit.
Consider the types of professions that were based in the towers, I don't think they would mind a mittle oppurtunistic profit taking. Heck, this action is not only the in the spirit of those who died, but also something and honours their memory. Basically we have to write this tragety off as a long term capitol loss and get back to increasing shareholder value.
...Consider the types of professions that were based in the towers...
I hope to God that you are being facetious, as it is sometimes hard to discern in print a writer's intentions, particularly at this awful moment in time.
What is wrong with being a die hard capitalist? The people in those buildings were all about money and making more of it. Turning disaster into cash would not dishonour them in the least and I'd bet they were better at that than any of us. I don't think a WTC broker would poo poo some street vendor for making a quick buck selling WTC cards. America is about making money and we shouldn't allow terrorists to change that.
Did you some how miss seeing the CEO of Cantor Fitzgerald on TV last weak. There is a differnce between being a capitalist and being a hartless capitalist.
Yeah, one returns better than average profits.
I doubt he meant any disrespect by it, there's no easy way to word id, but essentially the people who worked in the towers main purpose was to make money (didn't call it the World Trade Center for nothing), turning misfortune into fortune, and probably would support others doing the same even on a small level basis.
Plus, anyone who was within 1300' in either direction of them when they got hit / collapsed has the right to wear that shirt.
My distain will go towards the wannabe's that buy that shirt when they were in bloody Midtown or Queens at the time. No, it is NOT the same thing.
To be honest I would love to have one of those bronze models of the WTC, for a Momento.
Well you gotta remember alot of businesses in Chinatown and Canal street lost lots of money, from the extensive closure of the area. And business south of Canal street, that is most of Chinatown, are closed to vehicular traffic. The markets can't get fresh food in, and their supplies have rotten. While I do consider the T shirts in bad taste, you gotta remember these people have to have enough money to eat and such.
I think Chinatown will be suffering for a little while, untill all streets are open and people return. It may take a few months.
I picked up a miniature model (paperweight type) of the WTC this weekend. One of those tourist shop vendors over by Times Square was selling them at regular rates. I have placed the model on my desk as a reminder of NYC's greatness and as a reminder that our work is not yet done in this unprovoked attack on our nation...
BTW, please report any and all AMERICAN FLAG price gouging to your local authorities. That is just plain disgusting!
BMTman
I have a miniature model of the Twin Towers.
WTC items are hot right now. I have noticed that many stores selling postcards seem to be out of postcards featuring the Twin Towers.
Not sure what can be done about stores selling US flags at inflated prices. Guiliani did say that the Dept of Consumer Affairs is investigating claims that NY hotels significantly increased their rates last week when tens of thousands were standed here in NY.
I was told that the rates for many hotels are actually figured out by computer. For example, if the LaGuardia Marriot is booked at 50% capacity at 12 noon, and suddenly by 1pm they are at 95% capacity, the computer will set prices on the balance of rooms(the additional 5%) at a much higher rate, because demand is higher.
BTW, please report any and all AMERICAN FLAG price gouging to your local authorities. That is just plain disgusting!
What you sugest is blatently UN-American. Price gougers will be naturally done away with through nomal market forces. Otherwise they aren't price gouging, but responding to a dramatic increase in demand. Price controls are for places like China.
Friday night I bought a souvenir twin towers at a shop on Broadway North of 50th. AT least this subtalker wanted one.
I hope they will let WTC items be sold. I myself want some of these souveniers, post cards, posters, models. I want them as a memento. I'm going out today to go look for some, anyone know any good places ?
5th Avenue betw. 42 and 57
7th&Bway betw. 42 and 50
Thanks for the info !
Don't forget surrounding Chinatown in Canal, Mott, and Centre Street. They even US flags, pins, patches, and chinese fan with United States symbols.
>and chinese fan with United States symbols.
Speaking of Chinese fans... I've one here
with the NYC Subway Map on it.
The Map pinpoints the location of the WTC towers,
the B having 168th as a Terminal and (another B)
and Q both going to 21st-Queensbridge.
circa 1995, I suppose?
For thee curious:
Chinese SUBWAY MAP Fan made by:
Empire Souvenir Inc.
My multi language map is dated May 2000.
Mr t__:-(
Lighten the mood a bit. On my model RR, I have at least 6 possible subway routes - each one with a loop at each end for continuous running.
If we were going to run the NYCT in the same way - huge ovals of track, given the current system what possible continuous routes can you come up with?
A West End Culver Route and a Brighton Sea Beach thru Stillwell
I'll be attempting to do my interpretation of the Lackawanna and Wyoming Valley interurban loop in Scranton, Pa. asdepicted in "Davesrailpix.com. I hope I remembered that correctly.
Its a single loop with a few sidings the loop goes to a single track over a girder bridge into a tunnel. At the far end of the tunnel it emerges to a curving switch , bothto the left to a two track ROW. The proto Row lends itself to the modeler with tunnels ,gorges, mountainous terrain and period buildings.
If you have ever been to Steamtown, you'd know what I mean.
The NY subs are over my head.
avid
In Scotland, Glasgow's subway is exactly that: one loop for continuous running. They call it the "Clockwork Orange."
Detroit's people mover is also a loop, but it only runs in one direction, a bummer if you need to go one stop in the wrong direction.
Mark
There is that Chicago thingie, but I must admit I don't know if its a true loop.
Hello dave Cole, a little info please!
avid
The Loop in Chicago does not have any trains that operate exclusively on the Loop, but three of the routes traverse all four sides of it while the fourth only covers two sides.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
If my memory serves me right, Philadelphia planned a loop, which was never completed. I think the tunnels that now are used by the Broad-Ridge Spur and underground portions of PATCO were supposed to be part of that loop.
Also, wasn't there a plan awhile back in Toronto, never to reach fruition, to connect the two northern termini of the Yonge-Spadina subway to create a giant loop?
Mark
6681-85 and 6691-95 (delivered in the last few weeks) were out for road testing today, but didn't run on the 2, it ran on the 5. The train was at Bowling Green when I saw it, making simulated stops to and from Flatbush Avenue. Could this be the first trainset to debut on the 5? Stay tuned....
-Stef
Yes I was on the 4 yesterday and I saw it twice. On my first trip at BB-CH. On my second trip at Franklin Ave.
Has the recent tragedy and heightened security impacted on rail photography?
Since some of us have asked about him, I sent him an e-mail and received a reply. He says he's OK.
That's a relief. I was wondering about our 'Sarge'.
BMTman
Sarge and heypaul. What's going on around here? We're losing some of our old war horses. Can't we get these guys back on?
Heypaul posted last week after the Twin Towers were hit.
Sat next to him at a table for six last Friday.
Sub Talk has been going down on occasion at this time. I think that it is working at the moment. "heypaul" is still around but, you should try him at at this time since that is where he is posting messages.
#3 West End Jeff
Wow, a thread named after me!!! And a positive one at that. Thanks everyone for your concern. I'm OK, just very tired.
And a Happy New Year to all.
Give that little guy of yours a hugh from us too.
Mr t__:^)
Thurston, is it you or Logan that saves the MetroCards? I don't and admit i don't know Diddlely about them.
I found a card with a tennis player and advertizing American express.
Is it collectible, if so its first call first serve. E-mail me.
Yes, I'm one of those nuts. The Am Exp card is one of four:
- Since '80 = Yannick Noah
- Since '99 = Martina Hingus
- Since '90 = Todd Martin
- Since '79 = Tracy Austin
This is the 3rd year they put out such a set.
I have a set for myself & some spares to trade, so I'll let someone who doesn't go for yours, thanks for thinking of me !
BTW, each had a matching holder ... I think you only got these at the Am Exp table at the games ... now if you have one of those you'll make a new friend for life :-)
Mr t
This the 80 one, the number appears under the Latin 'Formidable Depuis" It doesn't even look as if it was swiped yet .
I'll have to check swipe it, Then its to the heypaul collection!
avid
I didn't know that Yannick once drove for Greyhound.
BTW, heypaul took some videos & freeze famed a group that can be accessed via Harry Beck's "The Other Side of the Tracks" site.
Mr t__:^)
Good to hear from you, Sarge!
Happy New Year to you too!
BMTman
I miss you e mailing your jokes to me Bob
What's your present email Bob?
What's your present email Bob? I actually got a 'puter now, to supplement my WebTV!!
Patent design number D153,367, filed 24 Jan 47, approved 12 April 49. Submitted by Otto A Kuhler, assignor to ACF (NYC). Term of patent was for 14 years.
Mr Kuhler was living up in Rockland county in Biauvelt NY when this design was submitted. He is noted for some of his design work on class one railroads, just as Raymond Lowry did. Mr. Lowry designed the R-40. Mr Kuhler designed the R-11!!
Check it out on the Patent and Trademark Office web site (uspto.gov). I almost fell off my chair when the page came up.
Why don't you tell us what it is since that site requires some sort of plug-in to view the images.
Dave
The picture is that of an R-11 (with the split window and all). But it does not have the flutting that one see with a Budd product. At first I through it was an R-15, but a closer look shows it was an R-11.
How did Budd get the patent from ACF to built the R-11?
PS: Files are TIFF format. I had to install a plug in. I thought IE could read TIFF files.
Plug-in support for *nix versions of browsers is well known to be poor to non-existant...
I can't read the whole thing right now, but I wonder what was so unique about the design that it merited a patent.
Paul
If you are interested, I can jpeg it to you tonight when I get home. I have a hard copy. It is only two pages.
Phil Hom
As an industrial designer for transportation, I am very interested in seeing more of Mr. Kuhler's work in detail, in its evolution, and on his sketchpad. He was definitely overshadowed by Loewy. Only a few examples of his RR/transit designs still exist.
Well, it look like an area that needs to be explored. The Patent and Trademark Office website has all these tiff drawing for viewing. I found plenty of class one railcars, RDC, improved RDC (with center doors!!), and one subway car (the Kuhler/ACF R-11). Somewhere in that maze are BMT concept cars that needs to be brought out in the open for all to see. It looks like my lunch hour will be spent at my desk looking for unique subway cars that never made it, or ones that did. I'm sure if I find the patent design for the Clark Bluebird someone will be very very happy.
Phil Hom
Oh I would! Be interested in seeing what else Mr. Kuhler designed.
Still looking for the location of the original renderings of the Loewy designed paint scheme for Pittsburgh #1095 under loan as a demonstrator to Cleveland in 1939. I have copies of all 4 photos known to exist. I have two left hand 3/4 views and the LH and RH sides. No rear views. I found a good color print to use for color matches. Want to repro it on either a model or one of the cars here in Brooklyn. The Loewy archives in DC are uncataloged, and they said for me to come in and try to locate this stuff, if it is in fact located there. The Loewy designs were split off into several locations.
In addition the the Otto A Kuhler designed R-11 (D153,367), I found many transit railcar design patents. Here is a quick listing:
D105,053 Clark PCC (BQT 1000)
D110,384 STL PCC (BQT 1001 and others)
D131,166 PCC St Louis PCC with modified front end (as in SF Muni 1100's)
D209,878 Cleveland Airporters
D207,889 PATCO
D201,226 CTA PS cars
D199,421 PATH
D198,551 Budd design for PATH
D181,132 Silverliner I
D197,930 Proposed for ?
D197,033 Proposed for ?
D256,006 Budd SPV-2000
D208,595 UA Turbo Train (1967)
D181,276 Proposed Turbo Train (same designer as above - 1957)
Still looking for BMT designed cars. I'll keep you posted.
Phil Hom
Interested in all of them!!
I logged onto Subtalk from a public computer (at school) on Tuesday to ask a few questions, and now apparently my password is saved here (presumably using a cookie) every time I come to the site. Is there any way to clear it so that other people can't potentially post messages under my name?
PS - I can't directly modify/remove cookies on the computer because I don't have access to the files.
Try Tools>Internet Options>Delete Files(button)
Arti
Um, he just said he doesn't have access to the files.
No, there's no way that you can delete the cookie through means other than accessing the cookie files. Public web "cafes" should set their machines up to delete cache, cookie, and history when a user logs off.
What if he was to disable the use cookies in the browser before using Subtalk (on those computer that don't have the Subtalk cookie created on them yet)?
-Robert King
That'd be fine. It doesn't require cookies to operate.
Dave, can't you change his password so his account won't be accessible from the school site--then he can just remember not to log in again from a public computer?
Or alternately disabled his account and he can sign up with a new one?
Are either or those a big deal?
Whenever I use a public computer to access the internet, I change my password before using Subtalk, and then change it back when I'm done.
The password is saved, but it's the wrong password.
He can change the password, post a TEST message using that same computer, then change the password back. Voila, the saved password is the wrong one.
Or the easy way (if he doesn't feel attached to the password) is just to change it.
Why even bother posting a test message? just post a legit message when you are ready.
Do you have a personal user account on the school computer? If so, nothing to worry about. I do, and my cookie follows me no matter what terminal I use, and the next guy has no access to my stuff.
Click here
Here's a more detailed localized map of the service changes. It's a PDF file.
thanks
The same map is posted on the TA site.
If you like the TA's "neighborhood maps," save a local copy.
Wish it was a real object-oriented PDF instead of just a low resolution TIFF-to-PDF conversion.
This is slightly off-topic, I know (but less off-topic than most of my recent posts), but I just read that ferry service between the Battery and Brooklyn was reintroduced. I was wondering if anyone could tell me where in Brooklyn the ferry's going and, more specifically, if this is the rebirth of the old South Ferry?
Thanks
Seth
Pier 4, Brooklyn Army Terminal. Sunset Park at 58th street and 1st ave. 1 ferry per hour, rush hours only.
Is the Temporary "E" now longer than the "A" to Far Rockaway?
Anyone have the Milage out there in cyberspace?
avid
Yeap, Goes to Euclid.
Yes - Don't know the mileage but it's like the E from the old days.
Wayne
In the OLD days, and I'm going back to somewhere around 1973 or 1974, the "E" ran Rush Hour service to Rockaway Park as well, so that would be the longest "E" of them all. Still, Jama to Euclid is almost a great circle route in and of itself. Start and end points have to be within a few miles of each other.
wayne
Yea,
Push The "E" to Lefferts, and you could flick a bugger from one terminal to the other if the wind was right.
avid
Send the E through the K connection and via the J and all you have to do is drop it downstairs.
'cept for the sharp turns and 480ft plats. that Big "E" would be something. It would be kinda cozy on Queens Bulletbard, they get a full boat as it is with 600ft consist.
avid
Jama to Euclid is almost a great circle route in and of itself. Start and end points have to be within a few miles of each other.
Probably only a ten minute drive, under the right conditions.
:-) Andrew
In the late 80's, the C ran to Rockaway Park. (I believe this ended in 1990 when the N began its Manhattan Bridge tease.) Rush hours, its north terminal was Bedford Park Boulevard. Local all the way. That surely beats the E, in time if not in distance.
Is the "A" eggspress on 8th Ave during the rush or 6:00am to 9:00pm? Is the "B" the only local working the 8th ave. Is the Big "E" local from 50th ot Euclid?
avid
The B is the only CPW local. (See my earlier complaints.) The E is local in Manhattan and Brooklyn.
IMO, the A should be local in Manhattan (168 to Canal) and the E should be express in Manhattan (42 to Canal) at all times. Brooklyn, it doesn't really matter, but whichever terminates at Euclid (currently the E) should be local.
According to the "A Express" sign posted above a stairway leading up to the Penn Station Express platform, the A runs express:
Between 5:31a and 10:28p.
A runs express (which is during normal service hours) in both Manhattan and Brooklyn between 207 St. and Euclid Av. (or such) in Brooklyn. I may be wrong about Euclid Av. as I have never ridden a train past Broadway ENY in Brooklyn heading east.
The Big "E" runs local ALL TIMES and is noted QUEENS EXPRESS (like it always was). It's pretty obvious that a train MUST serve those local stations in Manhattan and Brooklyn when the A runs EXPRESS during normal hours and there is no C train service.
Is the Temporary "E" now longer than the "A" to Far Rockaway?
They are very close in length. The A is still longer. Consider the fact that the A runs the entire length of CPW and up to 207 St. Manhattan, which virtually is at the end of Manhattan.
This trackage adds close to the mileage in Queens, where the "long E" runs virtually the entire width of Manhattan and through to most of the entire length of Queens.
AND beyond Euclid Av., the A has still more mileage of track to go to Far Rockaway.
Anyone have the Milage out there in cyberspace?
I have consulted this site for a MILEAGE CHART, but I don't know where it is now. I think I'll have to dig for it to look for it, but that mileage chart is helpful.
Just thought I'd get the word out, if for no other reason than the subway footage in it.
It was probably the best subway scene ever.
Actually, both subway scenes were pretty cool. Watch the Grand Central scene again. To me, it looks like passengers were not told a movie was being filmed. It looks as though people were just going about their business while the scene was filmed.
A lot of FC stuff was shot like that, guerilla-style. Remember when Popeye's following the El-hijacker by car underneath the El? No permission sought for that Hi-speed stuff and at one point you see Popeye look away from the El above him to the road ahead in *genuine* surprise 'cos there really was an vehicle in the way and no way had been closed-off for the run . . . .
That scene is one of the weirdest scenes ever. Some it is filmed in Ridgewood Queens. One part where Popeye is parallel to the El train is on Putnam St. The other is on Onderdonk Ave. Both are miles away from the neighborhood in Brooklyn where the sniper shot at Popeye.
. . . . which was where, please?
Basically, all scenes directly under the el were filmed along Stillwell Ave., 86th St., and New Utrecht Ave. The spot where the other car smashes into Hackman's LeMans is right where the West End line turns from Stillwell Ave. onto 86th St. The funny thing is, the 25th Ave. station is right after that turn. Yet Hackman has already stopped at 25th Ave. in that scene where the train bypasses that station.
It's hard to say why that was done. By the time Hackman reaches 62nd St. once the train gets tripped, that Pontiac LeMans is totally trashed.
That shuttle sequence took two full days to shoot. R-17 6609, decked out in silver and blue, is featured. It's now at the Transit Museum.
Did you ever notice the two-buzz highball heard at the same time the "Watch the doors, please" announcement is heard?
I have read reports that Microsoft will pull both Microsoft flight simulator and Microsoft Train simulator in response to last Tuesdays attacks does anyone know if it is true.
AFAIK only the Flight Simulator has come under scrutiny. At first I heard Micosoft was only going to change the program so that the WTC and the Pentagon are no longer featured in FS. I'm not sure if they are actually going to make both of them unavailable to the public, but right now anything is possible.
BMTman
That sounds kind of silly. What would it accomplish? Terrorists wouldn't know where to find these places (anybody with access to commercial photography can find them)? They wouldn't be able to practice flying at them? Besides, anyone with a scenery builder can put any landmarks they want back into the database.
And what about all the millions of CD-ROMS already purchased out there?
Pulling the MS flight or train simulators would be silly. My kids like to play driving games on the computer, but that hardly qualifies them to drive a real automobile. And anyone who wanted an idea of how to drive a diesel lococmotive could learn just about all they needed to know from the various first-person engineer accounts printed over the years in 'Trains' magazine.
Jim D.
Pulled, no; modified, yes.
Better run to the store and get the old ones or find patches on the internet.
What's offensive to me is that they actually had the people in the introduction say it would be "cool" to crash into the ESB. Maybe my sensitivities are heightened but even before last week crashing a plane, real or not, is not "cool".
What does train sim have to do with anything?????????????
Pulled, no; modified, yes.
It says that current users may be able to download a patch to remove the WTC from the background. As if anyone is actually going to do that.
David:
I like the new look of the page. You did a nice job, as usual.
Tony
Thanks!
-Dave
Yes. That picture of the WTC really brings back memories and tears to my eyes. Thanks David for your stand for this country!
And thank you for the picture, if you shot it yourself or not, I really appreciate you putting it on the site.
: )
Sorry guys, I couldn't help posting this:
HEY! I LIKE IT!!!!
LOL I saw this before but its still funny
I never would have figured it out, unless I read this post...
I like it more than the old ones, actually.
Well how about that. The building should be a little taller and the middle on especially. That way it will really stand out.
I like it! Although after looking it a few more times, it could also be directed unintentionally at the Statue of Liberty ... Perhaps the "we're number 1" design would be more appropriate overall...
they should rebild it and have anti aircraft gun on top of the towers. also , build a single tower like wtc for every major city to remember what happen.
What it looks like= Here's the finger to all you rat bastards that hurt us!!!!
I say face it towards Jersey...ha ha.
Wayne, could you e-mail me that picture? I'd like to pass it along to a few friends.
Thanks.
Click on the pic and save to your hard drive..
... The buildings are too close together, and it looks weird. It would be additionally weird to add to the Manhattan New York City Skyline.
I like those old-timer twin towers better than any other design that anyone could ever think of, including this.
I think the design will be the same as old. I agree with you on that. Why get rid of a trademark in lower Manhattan? OK, the idiots who caused the towers to collapse got rid of them for now, but they will be back soon, you'll see.
Did nobody remember that I came up with this idea last Tuesday?
I remember.
SERIOUSLY: A large 40 odd story building occupying the whole property with a small tower might not be such a bad idea. (Less of a target but more useful space nearer the street) Make the tower very lightweight, primarily as a radio transmitter, thus a strike won't cause this kind of destruction. I like the basic shape shown but one outside level should be muck lower.
wimp.
Depending on the size of your building and amount of open space, you may need more than 40 stories to replace office space lost. But it sounds nice.
Five 44-story buildings, outlining the shape of a pentagon.
(Note 5 x 44 = 220 = 2 x 110)
In memory of both WTC and DC.
Even though the design is nice the 5 towers wil be to big for the oiginal plot.
You don't get the meaning do you?
Close your hand into a fist and make a Middle finger..then see the pic again.
=)
Su-weeeeeeeeeeeeeeet! Let's do it.
OH! I just figured it out. Give them the finger! BUILD IT! I'll take 4 hours every day to volunteer to help the builders!
In all this sadness and tradegy this is the first time in a while since I have laughed! LOL
Knowing how great our country and city are I have speculated to my co-workers that New York would build 3 150 story towers connected by a bridge.
I say once we catch these terrorists how about throwing them in prison and not serving them anything but pork dishes so that they would starve to death slowly.
Here's a thought. Since there's no longer any "C" service, why didn't the TA keep the "Z" train and run it northbound via the Christie St. tunnel and have it terminate at 168th Street (old K service) instead of overcrowding the "B". That way you can leave the "A" and the "D" as express on thru CPW.
Also, anyone knows what the car assignments are yet? With only 8 cars trains on the "J" and "M" before the WTC attack, there's going to be a lot of people standing up into Brooklyn.
Did you know that was the original planned routing of the KK line pre-1967? It would make sense to use it now with the C gone.The Z could be routed to the 8th Ave local via West 4th Street. They[the TA] should into this on a serious note,even on weekends.
Yea but,
with the long "M",long "J" and Long "E" your car pool is taxed. To Have the "K" would be nice too ...but...
avid
Car shortage?
You have the Q to Continential , that a ride, the E to Euclid, the M to Stillwell, and the J to 95th St. So I think the cars from the "C,N,R,and Z have been absorbed into these longer routes. Where would you get the Cars for the K. The R110B is not enough!
avid
Redbirds with sidecars?
wayne
Unh-uh.
There are currently less route miles than before, Manhattan C, Queens Manhattan portion of the N and R + 2 cars from the Brooklyn portion.
I doubt that extending E would have absorbed them.
Arti
HOW many sets are needed for expanded J/M service? Couldn't the sets from the N[R32,R40] Q[R40] R[R32]support J/M and Z service? IT just a question so keep your shrit on.:)
What about all those 8-car trains used on the C? They could be transferred over intact and would only need to have their signs changed.
Pulling all the 60' cars out of 10 car service would help a little, if only for the convience of peak rush hour service. Plus if the routes needed to be shortened, terminate at 2nd Avenue.
More reason the TA should have kept the old IND "Green Monsters" that ran on the "C" line at the very end.
I hope they keep some Redbirds for IRT service if, GOD forbid, another attack happens and it knocks out IRT service in a critical area of the city.
Don't start me pining for the "Green Monsters", my beloved and long-lost Greenbottle R-10s, whose demise was wholly premature.
They could just as easily have kept some of the R30/R30A they scrapped in 1993. Neither were air-conditioned, although I thought the fans were better on the R10s than the axiflow fans were on the R30/R30A.
Hindsight is 20/20.
wayne
If they were to keep some of the older cars, where would they store them?
Put your Slants back on, and quit whining. The seats on the R10 hurt my back. The R/30s where easier to sleep on and justas noisey. I would have liked to see the R/30s in Heiniken Green. Kinda like a Heavey Weight Pullman.
avid
I think I sat in a train of R-10s twice, three times at the most. That was before I began riding at the railfan window on a full-time basis.
Green Monsters, eh? That's a new nickname for my beloved Thunderbirds. I never thought of the R-10s as being monsters. If anything, the R-1/9s were living, breathing, snarling, hissing monsters. I still loved them.
Even if the C were restored, fewer cars would be used under the current service plan than were needed a week ago. Remember, we have a net loss in Broadway BMT express service, in 7th Avenue IRT express service, and in lower Manhattan IRT and BMT service; and Bay Ridge and Sea Beach service has short trains.
Fugget using Division A stock on Division B. The "E" by going to Euclid at the same frequency has doubled its size. The C with its 8 car sets at a lesser frequency was probly short some, I'm guesstamating here. The J gobbled up the Z. The Q ate half of more of the R.
I think the best bet is to get an OFFICAL car count and distribution.
heypaul, getcher crystal ball out, please.
avid
The "E" by going to Euclid at the same frequency has doubled its size. The C with its 8 car sets at a lesser frequency was probly short some, I'm guesstamating here.
The TA has eliminated an 8-car service at C headways between Euclid and 168 and replaced it with a 10-car service at E headways between Euclid and Chambers. Which uses more cars? The former, I strongly suspect. (And some E's might be short-turning at WTC or 2nd Avenue so Brooklyn isn't overserved.) Granted, the B may have reduced headways to make up on CPW.
The J gobbled up the Z.
No it didn't. Skip-stop was eliminated -- that's all. The Z was never a route of its own -- it was a "J-prime," so to speak.
The Q ate half of more of the R.
Think of it this way: the old N and R have been eliminated. The J's extension in Brooklyn and the Q's extension in Queens require fewer trains than the former R in its entirety. The M's extension in Brooklyn requires almost no extra trains at all (since it already ran to Bay Parkway rush hours), far fewer than than the former N in its entirety. All of the Brooklyn extensions will be in 8-car trains. Add on a few extra trains since the Q and W are running local in Manhattan.
This is a service cut.
In very general terms:
M train (R40M, R42) eqipment has gone to cover the "RJ"
Q train (R40S) equipment covers the "MN"
R train equipment (R46) (and maybe a little Pitkin C) went to the E
E train equipment (R32) went to the Q
The N's mish-mash of equipment is not is the equation, and most of the Wash Hts C equipment is probably idle too.
Seems to be they could scrape up a C train and send it to Eastern Parkway (the "CK")
Thanks Dave. I feel roomyer already. Do you whether or not the platforms of the Broadway/Jamaica "El" could have handled 9 60 ft. cars if the singles where available? The southern BMT Div. can take 600 ft of train,. Whats the length of the Eastern Div. We know it had been using 480 ft. sets. Was there enough extra for increase? Anyone with the Numbers?
avid
They could possibly squeeze 9 cars onto the Nassau Street lines, but only on the J. Nothing scientific about it, I'm just visually measuring it based on experience and I cannot think of a single station along the J line that is real short. The M couldn't do it because the terminal at Metropolitan Av cannot handle 9 cars.
I think platform extenions are in order,anyone?
The Eastern Divison trains don't need it. Married pairs can't form 9 cars trains. A 5 car set and a 4 car set of an R143 or R160 can though. The stations once handled 8-car Standards, so I don't see why they can't handle 9 R-units.
Or some equipement from redbirds or R/32/38/40/42s can be salvaged before dunking and used to upgrade some r/32/38/40/42 cars into some threesoms or singles.
Then maybe the Lines could be Maximized when unusual GOs or temporary re-routes come down the pike.
avid
Or maybe they can extend the platform to 10 cars like the rest of the B division,like they should have done in the first place.
"This is a service cut."
Actually, it seems to me that the Astoria, Jamaica, and West End lines are getting royally and unnecessarily screwed. It seems to me that they could run short-line N trains from Astoria to Canal St. and they could run Z trains to Bay Parkway (rush hours) to allow skip-stop to/from Jamaica and cover the loss of M West End service.
There is no Jamaica service cut. The J and Z have never been treated as independent lines. The Z suspension doesn't mean that Jamaica has half the service it used to -- it just means that there's no skip-stop. (If you prefer to think of it this way, the J and Z are both still running, only they're both making all stops.) If anything, Jamaica service has increased to accomodate the (former) R in Brooklyn.
Running additional Z service would dump even more unnecessary service on the Jamaica line.
I don't know if Astoria or West End have lost any service. I haven't seen the schedules but I wouldn't be surprised if W headways were shortened specifically to make up for the lost N in Astoria and the lost M on the West End.
The CPW local is the line that's getting royally and unnecessarily screwed. The C could easily run. The E can turn at 2nd Avenue until WTC is ready to accept trains (it needn't accept passengers).
No, I didn't know that was the original plan but under the circumstances, the TA should really look into reopening a few of the non-revenue trackage that still exist. They certainly have the money now to do it.
You said a mouthful. The route would come in handy,and would take some of the pressure off the other lines in the area.
Does anyone have a full list of the re-routes that have taken place?
So far I have observed
1) "C" trains gone
2) #1 is now Broadway/7 Ave Express terminating at 14th Street and #2 & #3 trains are the Broadway locals (to 96th Street)
3) Cirlce Q extended to 71 Ave
4) "N" and "R" gone from Manhattan
5) I think the M has had some significant change but I haven't heard the details.
6) "E" extended to Euclid Ave
Is there any word on how long each will be in effect? I know the changes cause by station/track damage will be long term (such as #1 terminated at 14), but the "C" being suspended is not due to track damage (aside from the fact that the E can no longer terminate at WTC, yet I heard that that station is physically ok and is being used for some function by rescue crews.
All in all I would say the MTA, as so many agencies and individuals, has done a very good job in response to the events of last week. We are often quick to offer complaints, I think some compliments are in order here.
Piggo
The "M" indeed has undergone a significant change; it is now the SEA BEACH line in Brooklyn, replacing the "N".
AND - the "J" is now going all the way through to 95th Street-4th Avenue in Brooklyn. This routing existed once before, in 1967-1968 - they called it the "RJ".
wayne
I'm guessing here, so don't jump on my bones.
Has anyone seen work or hopper cars at the "E" Chamber St Terminal?
I'm just wondering if thats why its not being used to turn trains.
Anyone know?
avid
Has there been any equipement damage(rolling stock) and will the
R/100Bs be DRAFTED into the service of NYCTA?
avid
BTW, have the G.E R32s finished their AC upgrade and are they back in service?
avid
I didn't even know there ever were any R100B cars!
- Lyle Goldman
TYPO TYPO TYPO
Sorry I ment R110bs, but you really knew that. Didn't you Lyle?
avid
Does anyone know the maximum TPH on the Montague Street tunnel now that all service through it is routed on Nassau Street?
I'm wondering whether it's being used to capacity. Typically, the headways on the former N and R wouldn't fill the tunnel.
Was just cleaning out a drawer...and came upon the Metrocard which I had gotten on my last trip in; and rememebering where it was bought- Courtlandt St...Also...did PATH lose any equipment/operating personnel? Havent seen anything about it, and know that there was usually two trains in WTC [one NWK..one HOB] in at once..or were they able to evacuate them in time?
They left one behind, so I have been told. The other one was used to evacuate PA personnel; the last passenger train was already on its way to JSQ. I would guess that the train left behind has been crushed by the falling debris unless the station roof held.
wayne
you think that was spooky ??? SEPT.11 01= 9-1-1!!!! Thats spooky
they could have planned it to be 9-1-1. I'm not that impressed.
When the WTC gets rebuilt...and I know it will, which connections do you think will be added to the concourse level, if any? Does anyone believe that they will finally run a one stop connection for the LIRR to WTC? Or possibly run PATH out to Brooklyn under Atlantic Avenue to Flatbush terminal on the LIRR?
I do NOT beleive any of the above will happen.
It'll be amazing if the IND Chambers/BMT Cortland Connection gets done!
avid
I think a tunnel already exists under Atlantic Ave. that was abandoned by the LIRR. Now the question is what will be the cost of a new tunnel under the East River will cost?
But that tunnel was abandoned c. 1860!
Seth
1860 is better than 2106...haha
Is this a cast iron tunnel?
Nope...it's concrete and brick.
By my understanding, the Atlantic Avenue tunnel (it runs from where Flatbush meets Atlantic, and then all the way to a block short of the East River) is actually lined with stone. But others posting here have certainly taken the tour and can attest from personal experience. I usta work at LICH, and the persons who took care of the building did know about this difficulty towards expansion (Bunny Gibralter, where are you?).
I didn't realize it was open east of Court St. I was only in it once, many years ago, and I don't remember it terribly well.
I know the entrance is a manhole in the middle of Atlantic Ave., about a foot west of the intersection with Court St. After going down the ladder, I think there was just an earthen wall on the east side and the open section of the tunnel proceeded down toward the river, but I don't know how far. I don't know if the tunnel continued farther east, but I think there might have been street-level or open-cut trackage. (At this point I'm trying to rationalize my vague memory, so this is mostly speculation.) In fact, I think the LIRR put the tunnel in because people in the neighborhood were complaining about noise and smoke from steam locomotives. It would make sense for the LIRR to put the trains in a tunnel in that area, because by the time they were running trains down that stretch of Atlantic Ave., settlement was pretty heavy already (and fairly well-off--but this depends on exactly when the tunnel was constructed). It might not have been as heavy farther east, so they could have kept the tracks above ground there. Anyhow, I'm pretty sure it was a short tunnel, not reaching all the way to Flatbush Ave., but that shouldn't be too hard to check.
Seth
Um, I searched on this very site for "Atlantic Avenue Tunnel," and a bunch of sites popped up (include the FAQ). It turns out that I was right that the tunnel does not run all the way to Flatbush Ave. (and never did), but that my justification for the construction of the tunnel was, if not entirely incorrect, very incomplete.
Seth
The Atlantic Avenue tunnel was declared a 'public nuisance', the result of political corruption. It was paved over as a matter of law.
If you walk along Atlantic Ave in front of LICH ('the Long Island College Hospital' -- which used to be the only hospital on the island called Long, and certainly, the only teaching hospital), you see the dip down to the river. The tunnel ends at that dip, as I remember reading (perhaps remembering badly) but certainly attesting from personal experience, looking to see how the tunnel runs.
The flats down there are all filled land, going out some ways. The BQE at Atlantic represents the old shore, and where the Atlantic Ave tunnel ends.
The tunnel is lined with brick, IIRC from the tour I took a couple of years ago.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
It was also one of the first, if not THE first, cut-and-cover railroad tunnels ever built.
Is the abandoned tunnel wide enough to handle the LIRR MUs?
> It'll be amazing if the IND Chambers/BMT Cortland Connection gets done!
Is one being planned?
- Lyle Goldman
As far as I Know, only on this site.
avid
Yes, I think I was actually the one who suggested it.
- Lyle Goldman
P.S.
TALIBAN CAN KISS MY ASS!!!!!!
As far as the last statement, I think most people agree
"Taliban... I thought it was some kind of a band"
-- George W. Bush
Does anyone remember this?
> "Taliban... I thought it was some kind of a band"
> -- George W. Bush
>
> Does anyone remember this?
Did he really say that? I wouldn't be surprised! It sounds like something he would say.
- Lyle Goldman
Well.. He said that last year, during an interview by "Glamour"
magazine. I think you can still search an article about that on
any newspaper's web archives.
I've just checked the Daily News archives. There you go:
http://www.nydailynews.com/2000-05-04/News_and_Views/Daily_Dish/a-65511.asp
I think if you read article carefully, it's pretty clear that it was more a question of Mr. Bush not hearing clearly what the questioner was saying and not that he didn't know what the Taliban was.
In any event, apparently it's still pales by comparrison to some past misunderstandings by some prominent democrats. It would seem, placing an erect penis into the mouth of a 21 year old intern - to the point of ejaculation is not sex according to some democrats. Do you really swallow that?
> it's pretty clear that it was more a question of Mr. Bush not hearing clearly what the questioner was saying and
not that he didn't know what the Taliban was.
I don't think so. It seems that he knew the existance of the
organisation but didn't remember its name.
Perhaps if other people read the passage you pointed out - we can get a concensus of opinion.
As much as generally don't like Bush (yet I am currently 100% behind him and whatever actions he may choose), I would say he did not hear the question properly. As the question before was about Madona, he may have thought he was being asked about some rock band or rap group. I'm willing to give him a pass on this one.
Piggo
> Do you really swallow that?
What an appropriate (and disgusting) choice of words!
- Lyle Goldman
Not that it will happen but extend the 1 to Flatbush LIRR using Hoyt and the Transit museum station and a Govenors Island stop.
Not ever in our or our childrens lifetime.
Shouldn't they build the Second Avenue Subway first?
- Lyle Goldman
When all the rubble is removed, including the damaged roof lining of the tunnels and mall level debry, the road bed would appear obvious to the onlooker. Again, its only being planned, or wished for here.
avid
Rah rah rah! Make WTC II another Penn Station -- have both LIRR and NJT trains (via Bergen Cut) terminate there! Rah rah rah!
Are there any running over there? has anyone seen them?
Don't know; last I heard the CI R32s were running the Diamond Q.
If they're on the "J", it will be the first time in many moons that they've been there.
wayne
I was asking this because i figured the J must have absorbed the R 60FT cars in order to sustine expanded service.
You are absolutely correct there. I would guess that a few trainsets of R32 will pop up on BOTH the "J" and "M" lines, along with some of the Slants.
Speaking of the Slants - has anyone seen them today?
wayne
I rode on a slant down Broadway on the diamond Q this morning. It ran local.
Today I observed:
Q Local: R32, R68, R68A
Q Express: R32, R40S
J: R40M, R42
M: R40S, R40M, R42
The J won't need extra cars. The Z isn't running is it?
Yes, indeed. There is Z service today.
Chaohwa
Nope. Z service is suspended until further notice.
Are they doing the skip/stop and express west of Myrtle ?
That'll really confuse the 4th Avenue people: i.e. What's the "Z" ?
its the J rush hour special
The MTA website says no skip stop service.
Dave,in light of the recent events,will you be making changes to the SUBWAY FAQ section?
If you wish to suggest entries that need to be changed (and send me the corrections) it would make my life simpler. What did you have in mind? I don't think any of what's happened so far really qualifies for an entry in the abandoned or unused listings since they weren't willingly disused; nor was it really a 'subway accident'.
I'd really like to see some photo's of the subterranean mess, if and when that is ever possible.
Well when you get some be sure to send them along...
As gruesome as these photos may be, they would be worthwhile for a historical perspective in future years.
Still waiting to hand out the RED *(or BLACK) boxes for my Master Numbers Book. I would guess that R62A, R32, R40, R46 and PATH pages
may all get some.
wayne
For what I hear only the R62's will get some. The rest of the train all made it, i is just a matter of time before they can get the train out. One of my friends from school car had to get people off the her train and out of the tunnel. I don't know what line she was on.
Robert
A separate history of the subway,or time line type entry might do to include the recent subway station[lines or route]problems. What do you think?
The damaged subway is , indeed not abandoned. It would only be abandoned if the TA announces it will not rebuild it - hardly the case here, esp. with an extra budget already provided by Congress.
Why not extended to F train to kings highway on the sea beach to give those passengers a one seat ride into midtown?
Do you believe that anyone would take it, probably walking to F would be faster.
Arti
How would an F train access the Sea Beach Line? The only way I can think of (assuming the F stays on Sixth Avenue in Manhattan) is through the "back door" at Stillwell Avenue. With the reconstruction of Stillwell Avenue coming up soon, this routing may not be possible much longer. Besides, Sea Beach Line ridership isn't high enough (I know the line has its fans, but I've already proven this even to the line's most ardent supporter on this Board) to warrant having two services (one going to Manhattan via Fourth Avenue and Nassau Street, and the other going the "wrong way" via Stillwell Avenue, Culver, and Sixth Avenue). Moreover, such a routing would require a few additional trainsets, which, even under the present situation, aren't likely to be available.
David
Does anyone here know anything about the new map?
Will it be available in all subway stations?
Somehow I doubt it. It take a while to print maps. And by the time they would print them, things will have changed again.
For the time being keep an open mind about changes. I am getting conflicting reports about the "1", "2" and "3'" lines south of 14 St. One source says no service. Another says service only to 14 St. Another says something goes to Chammbers St. And the MTA website doesn't help much. Later on I'll call Jay St and have a human voice tell me what's the story.
They are handing them out at Penn Station at the IRT lines.
-- Kirk
I am wondering to what degree the subway and PATH tunnels have been used to attempt to reach the disaster area by emergency personnel. I haven't seen any mention of it on the TV coverage over the past week, and at least in a four day view of the threads on this board I see no headings with related topics.
There's no power to the tracks in those tunnels, so the rescue personnel had to walk through them. Last night they made it, but found nothing there.
I'm not blaming you, but I would like to know something more than "they found nothing there." If the rescuers have made it down there, then they should be able to provide some kind of intelligent description of what it looks like, such as one of the following:
1. it looks like a deserted train station -or-
2. looks like ground zero above ground, i.e. all filled in with rubble -or-
3. it looks like a deserted, flooded, train station -or-
4. it is partially intact with walls in place but full of rubble -or-
etc. etc. etc......
I gotcha. Now those other parts I don't know. All I do know is that the rescuers made it down there and found no signs of life.
"It was pitch black except where their lights hit the wall. After several minutes, they hit water up to their waists, the captain said, but they waded deeper into the tunnel until they found a train parked in the PATH station beneath the buildings.
"It was deserted, damaged by debris, but still standing. The platform was standing, too. Its ceiling had not collapsed, he said, and the lights flashed on the escalator up to the next level. There, he said, they found a concourse wide enough to hold hundreds of people, but absolutely empty. Everyone appeared to have escaped before the towers fell. "It was eerie, the complete lack of human presence," Captain Gaudiosi said.
"Debris from the level above had collapsed into the room at one point. Still, the mere existence of this cavern gave him a fresh wisp of hope, Captain Gaudiosi said.
"To see this level relatively intact," he said, "means there might be other areas that are also intact."
this is amazing! where did you find these quotes?
I think this was from a NY Times article on Tuesday.
Thanks. I searched the site and found it:
http://www.nytimes.com/2001/09/18/nyregion/18NOTE.html?searchpv=past7days
I read that they tried to reach the station by boat, which I take to mean that the tunnel is somewhat flooded. Since then, they have reached the station, or so they claim. It seems they somehow dug down to it. They may have also reached it from the tunnel.
I hear from a reliable source that the PATH WTC tubes are indeed flooded (completely).
It'll be a LONG time before PATH trains go to the WTC area again.
BMTman
If PATH is flooded, do you move the station and to where?
Here's where having IRT-length trains can work to PATH's advantage due to their tighter turning radius.
If its decided that the current PATH station is unuseable for an extremely long time (over two years), what could be done is to go in under West Street, bore a tunnel between the two tubes and loop the train there, and carve out a new temporary station along one of the tubes either on the Manhattan or New Jersey-bound side. The sharper curves wouldn't be any worse than while the IRT No. 5 train goes through in the jughandle between 138th and 149th streets.
All this assumes the World Financial Center buildings will be deemed either salvagable or could be taken down while the contruction was going on underground, since the new station entrance would have to be in the WFC area. And unlike the current PATH station, there would be only one available platform, meaning the trains would have to get in and get out in a hurry, but that's still better than a scenario where PATH has no service at all downtown for three, four or five years.
you meant to say there was never any direct connection to any of the nyc subway tunnes & or rail systems to the path train system?
I do not understand why there was never at least some TRACK CONNECTION (s) to the irt system (s) or something !!....???
Was there some arrogance & or too much pride,......... aka this is ""my system & to hell with yours"" ?? .....etc??
@ Or was there just total thoughtlessness throughout these many years ???__________________________________!!
( please excuse my spelling errors ) thank you.
I don't think it was ever necessary to have a track connection. What did the H&M have to do with the IRT? Nothing. They are two completely different systems that serve two different purposes. NYC subway takes people around NYC. PATH/H&M takes people from Manhattan to NJ and from NJ to NJ and from NJ to Manhattan.
So far as I know, there never was any *track* connection between PATH/H&M. I gather, however, that the original terminal offered much better access to the subway stations (the Rector St. stations, I think; maybe it was the Cortlandt stations).
Whatever is done, straight-line concourses connecting the various stations is of obvious value, and would be a considerable improvement over the hare-brained arrangement they had before.
man!!.... still i still cannot believe this ........no track & or tunnel connections !!! >>>>>>>>>>>>whaaaaat ???
blows my mind away !!!
I think what he's talking about was the OLD (pre-1971) PATH and the NEW (post-1971) PATH. The fact that the two tubes sort of spread apart was the reason for the recreating the "loop" arrangement.
wayne
Part of me really wants to see the 1 train south of Chambers connected to the PATH Tubes when it is rebuilt. I know, some will argue it's wrong for the NYC subway to run into New Jersey (heck, there's no subway to Staten Island, why should it go to Jersey). But you know, it could end up being an extremely popular service. It would also be an alternative to Midtown for NJT/Amtrak NE Corridor passengers should there ever be a problem at Penn Station. As for people coming from the Staten Island Ferry, they could just as easily use the N or R trains or even the 4 or 5. And those headed to jobs or sights in Midtown can get there much quicker on the N/R from Whitehall or the 4/5 from Bowling Green since they have fewer stops than the 1 from South Ferry.
that makes a whole lot of sense ....!!
Assuming that the physical aspects of this will allow it, that's not a bad plan. Certain political and legal items would have to be taken care of.
I understand that concrete "plugs" will be used to prevent water from pouring into Exchange Place from the WTC tube. They need to pump out the NJ side of the tube. When the WTC side ultimately opens again, the plugs will then be removed.
From a 2-dimensional standpoint, it makes sense. But the IRT is cut and cover, and the PATH is 70-80 feet down. The vertical obstacle is insurmountable.
I'd rather see them bore through to the City Hall loop, and make PATH a part of the Lex local service for East Side access from NJ.
PATH could be connected to the IRT, but it would have to be a route that turned north and rose up beeath the 1/9 tracks (and the 2/3 after Park Place) on West Broadway. The tracks could probably merge with the IRT north of Chambers, but whether or not it would be worth the effort needed so that a 148th-Lennox/Journal Square line could be built is open to question (with PATH on Sixth Ave. between 9th and 33rd Sts., a WTC connection to the IRT East Side line would be far more useful -- Journal Square to 177th Parkchester in this case -- but it would be far more difficult to build as well).
Once a connection to the PATH system is made with the NYC Subways, the whole thing will come under FRA control, and that is because PATH operates between two states - and the Feds have jurisdiction over anything that goes between two states. Are you sure that you want that kind of control? For starters, the ditch-light rule will have to come into effect on all rolling stock,which will call for major modifications. The list gets very long, guys. Think about it.
I think this is exagerated.
1DC Metro crosses state lines--no ditch lights.
2 The FRA issue is physical interchange--AND ultimately if the NY and NJ delegation got it together a waiver could be enacted.
The real questions have to do with TPH throughput potentials and available cash for construction.
That said, I think it should be done. I also think a BMT/IND connection at WTC would be brilliant. The more interlinking the better both for evershifting travel patterns and GO's.
FRA rules and passing state boundaries are two different questions, as you've probably noticed when writing your post.
They have to be. PATCO runs between PA and NJ and is not subject to FRA regulations.
By the way, isn't one of the FRA regulations that trains have to have three headlights, one on top and two on bottom (the ditch lights) in a triangle formation. PATH trains don't have a top headlight. I remember when the LIRR and M-N added the top headlight to their MUs. But PATH hasn't done that. Did they get some kind of FRA waiver?
I don't know, as I'm not familiar with all the regulations. But where there are rules, there are often waivers, so your hypothesis is not impossible.
By the way, isn't one of the FRA regulations that trains have to have three headlights, one on top and two on bottom (the ditch lights) in a triangle formation. PATH trains don't have a top headlight. I remember when the LIRR and M-N added the top headlight to their MUs. But PATH hasn't done that. Did they get some kind of FRA waiver?
That lighting arrangement is required if there are any grade crossings along the line. PATH of course doesn't have any. Similarly, Metro North can operate its older 1100 series cars on the Harlem line without the lights; they operate only as far north as North White Plains, before any of the grade crossings.
Thank you for posting that. Your post also reminds us that regulations do sometimes reflect a reasonable amount of logical thinking...
I would like to see a BMT/IND connection built, and even better than that, the current World Trade Center terminal of the E line being extended into Brooklyn, asit was originally intended to be, so that local service from Brooklyn to Manhattan would not have to share tracks with the express. This would give the lines an alternate route in case of repairs, accidents, etc. How about it, guys?
I am sure Train Dude, Jeff H and some others can add to my post, but maintenance is also rougher for FRA rules as far as inspection intervals, tolerances for worn parts. I also believe that FRA requires a train inspection between every run.
FRA also requires external handholds and internal handholds by each door panel- If the subways were to do this I can just see some person with a suicide wish try to ride by holding these handholds.
Keep the tracks separate but form a subsidiary OA to run the new MTA Hudson Tubes--HuTOA which would be staffed by current PATH employees. Yards, facillities - use the current yards and facillities. HuTOA could be based at Journal Square as is currently done.
Purchasing could be unified to allow quantity discounts for items all railcars use.
What we need instead of MTA is an RTA-- Regional Transportation Authority which would have current operating companies as child companies much like today's arrangement of NYCT, LIRR, etc. with MTA.
NJT Would also become a part of RTA, SEPTA could stay separate since they operate no through trains at MTA stations.
Actually the City Subways (IRT - BMT) are just below street level.
The PATH trains arrived in the 7th Basement Level of the WTC or about 80 feet BELOW the subway system.
In other words, they ain't nowhere near each other.
Elias
I don't think it's the seventh basement -- the mall was one level below ground, as are the WTC E train terminal and the N/R Cortlandt St. stop; the 1/9 platforms are two levels below, and the escallators to PATH ran from the east side of the 1/9 tracks at the mall level to the mezzanine, on the west side and about 1 1/2 levels below the IRT. The fare control area is there, with PATH one flight below that, or roughly 4 1/2 levels beneath the street.
But that's still is 2 1/2 levels below the IRT, making any on-site connection between the two impossible. PATH would need at least an 8-10 block long ramp up to meet the IRT tracks, which would put any connection to the West Side IRT somewhere between Chambers and Franklin streets.
Check out the diagrams in Newsweek. Anyway, yes, Path is in the 7th basement level, about 80 feet down.
You go down at least two very long elevators from the mall level to get to the station level. and the track levels are below that.
Elias
That would mean the escallators from the mall to the PATH mezzanine went down five levels, and they didn't -- coming up from the station, the overhang area the passed under right after that little landing area just above the mez is the platform and trackbed of the 1/9 Cortlandt Street station, which is just two levels underground.
My dad worked at West and Vescey streets when they were building the thing and I got to walk along the wooden construction sidewalk and look down into the excavation a lot back in the late 60s. While the bottom of the foundation area may be 80-100 feet below ground, the tubes were supported on long stilts and rose going towards Church Street, so that the stilts were longer at the eastern end of the excavation than the western end. The West Street side was deep, but the tubes were far closer to the surface by the time they reached the 1/9 tunnel, where they disappeared again on the way to the old Hudson Terminal station.
I'll give you an extra half level or so -- PATH may be a full five levels below ground -- but there's no way it was five levels (60 feet) below the IRT, which would be roughly the distance between the street entrance at Grand Central and the Flushing Line.
I believe 7 levels.....the first set of escalators are loooooooong!
"coming up from the station, the overhang area the passed under right after that little landing area just above the mez is the platform and trackbed of the 1/9 Cortlandt Street station, which is just two levels underground."
I don't really believe that because I thought the 1/9 was cut and cover and is therefor very close to street level. That landing you are talking about is very very deep.
But the 1/9 platform is one flight downstairs from the mall level -- remember the "Exit Only" doorway into the mall from the downtown 1 at Cortlandt just around the corner from the phone booths and the PATH escalator? That means the 1/9 is two levels below the street (the same as it is at Chambers St.), and while the PATH escalator was long, it wasn't long enough to drop four more levels from where it passed under the 1/9 Cortlandt St. station. (IIRC, the escalator on the No. 7 train at 42nd St. near Third Ave. is longer, and that drops from the street to the mezzanine four levels below ground, with the east end of the Flushing line Grand Central stop about five levels below ground.)
I've only been on that escalator about 10 times, so I don't want to claim to be an expert, but in my opinion the WTC escalators are as long as the No. 7 train escalators below Grand Central. Whatever the case, it is 80 feet below the surface, so if each "level" was a little more than 11 feet high, then it makes sense. Hopefully some better graphics will be made to show the whole area.
I think the "level" thing may be the problem here, in that we're talking apples and oranges.
Going by the height of the twin towers, each of the 110 floors took up about 12-feet, 4-inches of vertical space. But 12-foot-4 is too narrow a space to fit in a subway station from track to roof, and include both the supporting floor and the ceiling, which may also be supporting a subway line above. So each level below ground really needs to be 15-18 feet tall to fit in the trains.
Four-and-a-half subway levels down 18 feet per level gives you a depth of 81 feet, while seven levels down going by the 12-foot-4 height of each WTC floor puts you 86-feet-4 inches, which are pretty close together in terms of depth (though in my memory from 32 years ago, I still don't remember the eastern end of the tubes being that deep. Of course, the section I saw going under the 1/9 tracks doesn't exist anymore, either).
I am not sure if your question was answered, but there was no connection between the H&M and the IRT because they were competing systems that were privately built. Originaly there were no track connections between the IRT & BMT, until the joint service arrangement serving Astoria & Flushing, and none between the BMT & IND, or the IND & IRT for that matter.
--Mark
Perhaps only one PATH line could be sent through there to minimize delays in the tunnel if a temporary station is built. Before the WTC destruction, PATH trains ran from WTC to Hoboken and Newark. With only one plaform, it might be better to run service only to Hoboken or Newark.
I would think they would run a WTC-Newark service if a temporary station and tube connection could be built, since doing all that work for a four-stop line from WTC to Hoboken seems a little besides the point, even with the NJT connection.
BTW -- This would also be the perfect time to institute that Metrocard transfer between the subways and PATH, since it would allow riders from Newark, Jersey City and Hoboken to take PATH to say, 9th St. and Sixth Ave., walk 1 1/2 blocks south and get a free transfer to the A/C/E downtown at the West Fourth St. station.
All normal WTC trains have been routed to 33rd Street.
BMTman
I gather that this is not a rupture in the tunnels, but rather runoff from firehoses and rain. Otherwise, we'd have a geyser bubbling at the level of the Hudson at Exchange Place.
It's a pumpout, a redo of the electrical and switching systems, trackwork, plus whatever else they'll do because it's closed.
I agree. Since the tunnel is at its lowest point when it is underneath the Hudson, that must be the most flooded section. All the water would rush down there and then spread out in both directions. It just needs to be pumped out.
They really need to pump those tunnels out before the iron corrodes.
Yes, aren't those Yerkes Tubes there at least along part of the stretch?
wayne
Of recent times, various lines in London have had to close temporarily for periods spanning many months where their CT Yerkes-built tubes crossed under the Thames. Our water table is rising because there's little industry left to abstract the groundwater and, yes, the tinworm is setting-in . . . .
The Exit/Entrance points at the 6th Ave. 14th St. and 23rd St stations might need to be examined to see if they could be expanded to handle a larger number of travelers wanting to head southor north dependingon the time of day.
avid
How would you improve the connections with PATH and the NYC Subway at the 33rd ST station? (It's the only one on the Manhattan side I'm familliar with.)
The various train services at 34st/6th ave are on different levels. With this in mind there is not a lot that can be done there. I would advocate that some of the "E" trains be routed down 6th ave, pick up transferees from the PATH at 23rd and 14th st. stations and go back to 8th Ave service south of west 4th St and deliver them to Broadway/Nassau .
There are any number of pipe dreams for intagration of the PATH and IRT, but there are FEDERAL restrictions and state egoes that inhibit that.
avid
FRA rules block any intergration for now, but considering the current situation, there will probably never be a better time for the Port Authority and MTA to sit down and talk about intergrating the systems, both through Metrocard use on PATH and by studying the possible intergration of the two systems while the WTC site is under repair (along with trying to get an FRA exemption for PATH).
PATH really could have used Metrocard now. Not only for 14th street transfers, but for walking transfers for the 2 block walk from 9th Street to W4th to get downtown.
Listen, the PA just lost BILLIONS. They need every red cent they can get their hands on. They don't the the cash to afford transfers. Sides, us in New Jersey don't want your kind comming over here.
I'm from NJ too, and if anything this disaster should have done is to cut out these stupid NY-NJ pissing contests. I didn't say to deny PATH their fare, but Pavonia - Exchange Place ought to be a fare-free zone on HBLRT.
this shoutiong war proves my post elsewhere for the need of a new Regional Auhtority to run all are transit systems--PATH, SIRT, NYCT, LIRR, MNRR,NJT.
Maybe you could explain exactly why?
The Path tunnel is either
A-Destroyed
B-flooded
C-Destroyed & flooded.
Those PATH tubes to WTC always had flooding problems. I remember ever since I heard of them and we'd get those winter noreaster storms they'd flood out.
Why did it do so? Well, I've been hearing about all the retaliatory attacks on Muslims from all parts of the globe, in light of the WTC destruction. Today, however, I felt as if I was at risk. I'm on the #2 (car #8986) heading southbound towards my school. At 3rd Av-149th St, a mother of Fulani decent (the Fulani tribe of Africa is Islamic, BTW) boards with her two very young children, one girl, one boy. The boy was a baby; she had to carry him. The girl was only a few years older, and wearing that distinctive cloth over her head. Of course, according to the laws of physics, they sat next to me. That's when my heart jumped; I thought that before reaching 135th st., either somebody in the car would come at them, or somebody would board at the next stop and attack them. With me sitting by, I would get some of it too (if you wonder why, consider this: people constantly mistake me for being older than I actually am. Maybe they could have thought I was her husband.) Thankfully, nothing happened between that time and 135th. But I got off wondering how bad the situation is getting.
We are going to have a lot of jittery days, for this and other reasons. Some of the stupidest types of retaliatory hate attacks have been those against Sikhs and other immigrants from India. India, of course, is largely Hindu. They have fought the Muslims in Pakistan for many years. (Not that all hate crimes aren't wrong.)
Any guesses on what the hit the tourist industry is going to have?
There will be very few tourists for a long time.
There will be very few tourists for a long time.
I disagree. Once the airline mess shakes itself out, things will pick up as before, or at least will when the economy rebounds.
The WTC is as big a touist attraction now as it was before.
>>I disagree. Once the airline mess shakes itself out, things will pick up as before, or at least will when the economy rebounds.
>>The WTC is as big a touist attraction now as it was before.
I agree with you. I'll be back as soon as things calm down a bit. My only problem, I now have to find a hotel thats the same quality (Great) and price (85.00 via priceline) as the WTC marriott. I stayed there every time I came to NYC as the 1/9 and N/R were so close by.
I hope to hell not.
it'd be nice to see a fraction of the tourists back, but there isn't enough room here to comfortably fit the people that live here, let alone a bunch of morons that just stand around staring and getting in the way. I for one will be happy to see them gone for awhile.
the airlines, with the exception of the israel airlines (the most secure, hell, the only secure airline out there), will be in trouble for awhile. I was going to take a trip to europe, but F it now. it's bad enough the seats are so tiny with little leg room...
Virgin Airlines has announced today it's grounding 5 of its oldest planes and laying-off 20% of its staff, at all grades . . . .
Must be the 747 Classics.
Get them -400s up!
they'll use it as an excuse to lay off everyone they can. the commissions they cut to travel agents earlier in the year (first by half, and them some more if i'm not mistaken) should result in more money in their pockets than they've had in awhile.
Tourists were all over the city today. They'll never stop coming to NY. Yes, the WTC was a huge attraction. Now, it's an even bigger attraction, but in a different way.\
I just got back from the city. First, I was in the Village, where I always to for a haircut. Then off to Times Square for certain trade publications, and once again there were tourists all over.
The subways were as busy, if not busier than before. If NYC tourism suffers more than a 5% loss I'll be shocked.
Will NYC still complete for the 2012 Olympics? Will the new Trade Center be up by then?
damn good question. i bet they'll try to get it and give it to NYC just as a thumb to the terrorist-eye, but realistically, i've read some of the proposals for it, and the plan doesn't seem that great. an example is how they want to use space along the LIC waterfront to house athletes, etc that is already being developed and occupied by residents. i smell smoke and mirrors.
If they can build a stadium in Manhatan, then in my opinion, it's ours. It would certainly be a sign of our roaring comeback.
MATT-2AV
"Did you want us to respect your cause? You just damned your cause. Did you want to make us fear? You just steeled our resolve. Did you want to tear us apart? You just brought us together."
-- Leonard Pitts / Miami Herald
If the new World Trade Center goes for the same building plan (twin towers) as the plan for the mid-1960's, it really depends on when they start the construction.
Since cleanup of the rubble will take approx. a couple more weeks (minimum), and the U.S. is in debt of around millions and millions of dollars to spare for these damages, and funding and transportation (shipping), equipment, and manufacturers, contractors, etc.......
Taking into consideration of the construction of the twin towers took in the 1960's, (it was opened in 1970, or someone said so in SubTalk),
the actual physical construction took 5-10 years.
But consider the fact that planning studies, blueprints, floors, elevators, offices, .. .. . . . .. . . .engineering, takes the rest of the time away, so by 2012, if construction starts around 2005-6, we have a chance of getting it done by 2012, as long as those construction vehicles don't get stuck in the Manhattan traffic, but consider this:
the office buildings around the WTC will also be affected by noise pollution.
But if so, construction workers won't get a minute of sleep, and will have to start the blueprints, contracting for bids, etc. right away.
IN SIMPLER WORDS: "The new WTC will be built by 2012, IF things go as planned, such as the one mentioned above."
: )
The USOC is going to take a very long look at our proposed security procedures if the Olympics are to come to NY. You know for a fact that Boston is out of the running, because of the mess that is due to take place at Logan Airport. NY could be too, if the PA doesen't get its act together at its three airports (esp. EWR).
In other words, no.
I had a feeling of that too.
The empire state building was put up in about 2 year. The WTC will be as well.
ESB had the dubious advantage of being completely financed during a boom, and completely constructed during a depression. Human life was cheap so you can speed things up at the cost of safety. Labor was cheap so you can speed things up at the cost of poor working conditions. And people were willing to work very hard & very well because they knew that if they didn't, someone was waiting behind them to do a better job for less money.
I think that "We'll show THEM" projects don't tend to be done with as much care or quality.
Actually the ESB was built in 1 year. There was a TV show about it a while back.
Actually the ESB was built in 1 year.
It was built during the Great Depression, when labor was plentiful and cheap.
I suspect that a good portion of the WTC's original construction time was the excavation of the solid rock below the towers (which was dumped into the Hudson to form the landfill that Battery Park City now occupies). Excavation is a slow and tedious process, but that's something that obviously wouldn't be required once all the debris is removed.
-- David
Chicago, IL
I read that Controlled Demolition, and demolishing company, estimated it would take over a year to move the 250,000 tons of steel. This is based on it taking 4 years to bring the materials to site back in the 70s. Back then, equipment was only brought in at night, but taking it out will probably be 24/7.
Alot of things are suppose to be built by 2012 or earlier including:
The Olympic park
IIRC:The Second Avenue line (or at least part of it)
The Jets stadium at the West side yard
The connection with the N(or W) at Laguadia airport(Or in 2010).
So it seems like the city is going to be very busy for the next 10-11 years.
Olympics are a cinch now. Sympathy vote. (Olympic Stadium will be wherever the Jets will be in 2012; could be New Jersey.)
New WTC (assuming it is as tall or tallest) will probably lag. Right now, there wouldn't be any tenants wanting to go in.
Don't say the Olympics are a cinch. NY is notorious for not being able to build modern sports facilities. As Boston, Baltimore, Miami,Atlanta, New Orleans, Houston, Dallas, San Antonio, Phoenix, LOS ANGELES, Chicago, Portland, San Jose etc..build modern sports facilities for their home teams, NY is still sitting by and watching as the world modernizes.
IOC/Olympics are not about sports facilities. Barely about sports. Morevoer, with its own multi-billion budget, the NY organizing committee can build what it wants.
Glad you think it's so easy.
If the people use their heads which often isn't the case in New York City they can have a new World Trade Center completed before 2012. If they wanted to move along with rebuilding it quickly they can consult the original plans and make changes where necessary and expedite the approval process so that construction on a new World Trade Center could be started quickly. I don't think that it would be very difficult to build a new World Trade Center if you go according to the original plans and make the necessary changes. I'm sure if they really wanted to, a new World Trade Center could be built from start to finish within 2 to 3 years.
#3 West End Jeff
Even if they wanted to go with the original plans (I certianly hope not), the "necessary changes" will force them to start completely over anyway. Just removing the rubble will take a year. Also, the PA hasn't sent out any RFPs for bidding, so plans won't be drawn up until they do. The two things that will make construction faster than the original are computers and the already built foundation. Still, it would be 4 years minimum before any work is finished.
From Wednesday morning's International Olympic Committee meeting in Switzerland:
Rome mayor: New York deserves 2012 Olympics
LAUSANNE, Switzerland (AP) - Rome's mayor said that if New York City is chosen as the U.S. candidate for the 2012 Olympics, all other bidders should withdraw in a gesture of solidarity following last week's terror attacks.
Mayor Walter Veltroni came to the International Olympic Committee on Wednesday to express his city's intention of bidding for the 2012 Games.
But he told IOC president Jacques Rogge that New York should be given those Summer Olympics if it enters the race.
"If New York is a candidate, I think all other cities should all step back to allow New York to host the 2012 Games," Veltroni said. "If the games go to New York, it means the athletes, the spectators, the whole world, we can all be together. This will show that the terrorists are defeated."
Veltroni said he sent a letter Wednesday to New York Mayor Rudolph Giuliani explaining the proposal.
Veltroni stressed that if other bid cities did not go along with the idea, then Rome would not withdraw.
"If there is a competition, then we will be in the competition," he said.
Rome is among at least eight European cities which have expressed interest in bidding for 2012. Rome, which hosted the 1960 Olympics, lost to Athens in the race for the 2004 games.
The IOC will select the 2012 site in 2005.
New York is among eight cities in the running to be the U.S. candidate. The others are Cincinnati, Dallas, Houston, Los Angeles, San Francisco, Tampa and Washington.
The U.S. Olympic Committee, which has inspected all eight cities, will announce three or four finalists as early as October and will make a final pick in November 2002.
People are generous, but not that generous. Talk is cheap. I expect there will be a fight over this...
Since the vote isn't until 2005, I assume there will be a lot of other things that will occur between now and then that will affect the outcome.
(Since the vote isn't until 2005, I assume there will be a lot of other things that will occur between now and then that will affect the outcome.)
Like NYC bankruptcy. After this, we won't be able to afford it. Taxes are already high, the schools and parks are already underfunded. The Feds paid for Salt Lake City and pumped big bucks into Atlanta. they won't give NYC a dime.
...but at least there's a chance the Manny B Northside will be finished by then.
eggs
Atlanta didn't recieve any federal funds. Just about everything was paid for by sponsers. One compliant Olympic officals had with Atlanta was the lack of gov't involvment, stemming from all the commercialism that was present from the games. When it comes to raising money for big events, no one can beat Atlanta. For the recent PGA tour last month, the $100 million needed was raised in less than two weeks from people with corperate connections.
"they won't give NYC a dime."
You know, Chicago has all the stuff that allegedly makes the rest of the country hate New York and unwilling to fund things in NYC:
*invariably Democratic voters
*lots of ethnic and religious minorities
*open homosexuals, including a distinctly gay/lesbian neighborhood (around Belmont & Halsted in Chicago's case)
*leftist academic types
*lots of people who don't live "the normal American lifestyle", meaning they don't live in a detached house with a big lawn or own one or more automobiles
And yet Chicago manages to get funding from the federal treasury for various activities and projects with relative ease. Either New York doth protest too much ("nobody likes me") or there's some other factor at work.
You know, Chicago has all the stuff that allegedly makes the rest of the country hate New York and unwilling to fund things in NYC:
*invariably Democratic voters
*lots of ethnic and religious minorities
*open homosexuals, including a distinctly gay/lesbian neighborhood (around Belmont & Halsted in Chicago's case)
*leftist academic types
*lots of people who don't live "the normal American lifestyle", meaning they don't live in a detached house with a big lawn or own one or more automobiles
And yet Chicago manages to get funding from the federal treasury for various activities and projects with relative ease. Either New York doth protest too much ("nobody likes me") or there's some other factor at work.
All true, although some of these things apply to a greater degree in New York than in Chicago. Car ownership is probably the most prominent of these.
In my view, the difference between the cities when it comes to federal funding is based on the fact that Chicago has a strong "can-do" spirit, while New York is the place where nothing gets done. If Chicago gets federal funds for a transit improvement project, the work will get done in a reasonably short time. Give the money to New York, however, and it will be piddled away and the work will never be finished.
We will be seeing this New York attitude in action - or, more accurately, in inaction, when it comes to the World Trade Center reconstruction. Five years from now, the site probably will be a weed-covered wasteland, surrounded by a collapsing wooden construction fence covered with posters for long-forgotten movies.
Five years from now, the site probably will be a weed-covered wasteland, surrounded by a collapsing wooden construction fence covered with posters for long-forgotten movies.
This is possible. It's like highway projects. Everything is taken to the point where everyone is being maximumally inconvenienced, then all work stops while all parties spend a couple years in court suing each other.
I have accused the politicians of all following the doctrine of 'inutilitarianism' -- the greatest inutility to the greatest number of people.
Term limits is making its mark on the City Council, however, and we might see some changes.
So, does anyone know how the system performed today?
Outside of some odd delay on the astoria leg of the W, I don't know... the delay in astoria was around 9am, the stations were pretty packed, so i took the train backwords to ditmars and had a seat for the rest of the ride - by then the crowd thinned a bit. as an added bouns while waiting at ditmars the CSX run to fresh pond went over hell gate. 2 SD's still in full conrail paint dragging what seemed like at least 70 to 80 cars.
That was cool. I used to watch freights on the HG all the time growing up in Astoria. There were a lot more of them then.
when did ya grow up here?
I've been here my whole life, all 27 years of it, and have always had an eye on the bridge it seems... through the late 80s and 90s it was pretty dead, but now with the PW, CSX, CP action, it actually has a pulse. I was pretty surprised by the length of the train this morning. it's been awhile since seeing anything up around 70 or 80 cars. either most were empty or them 2 old SD's are strong ass engines!
When I went to Mater Christi HS (now St. John's Prep)in the late '60s-early '70s, we used to count the freight cars going across the bridge during some of the less interesting classes.
I wonder if longer PATH trains are now possible, provided much longer platforms are done in the rebuilt WTC station.
Journal Square could easily accomodate longer trains. Nonstop service from JS to WTC would be possible, alternating with current standard-length trains making all stops. Or only some cars of longer trains would open at the current stations (rather like certain LIRR stations).
I don't remember if the Hoboken station can have its platforms lengthened.
The last time I rode PATH from WTC, I noticed that the illuminated platform signs called the train I boarded a Journal Square express. I was looking forward to the express run but we made all stops after all. Was there ever an express or was the sign installed for flexibility?
I saw that too, "Express" was illuminated with "Newark" at World Trade Center. (which is inaccessible now).
As of now, as noted in David Pirmann's posting in this thread, there are no express trains on PATH.
I personally don't know why those signs were installed.
: )
WTC was always able to accomodate 8 car trains easily, and possibly could have accomodated 9 cars at some of the platforms. But everywhere else the system is designed for 8 or 7 car trains.
There was speculation that PATH wanted to lengthen all the stations on the NWK-WTC route to allow for 8 car train lengths, all cars usable. Probably won't happen now.
Hoboken station cannot extend at the terminal end past the bumpers, because the Hudson is right there. (For some reason cars are traveling east as they enter Hoboken.) The only way to extend platforms west would be to destroy and reconstruct the complicated interlocking that starts as the platforms end. And that is NOT going to happen.
wouldn't want to mess with that cool car elevator they have at the west end of the Hoboken PATH station
WTC and NWK could and did handle 10 car trains. The AM rush expresses were 10 cars. They were made locals, cut to 8 cars, and the remaining 6 cars used to increase frquency on the JSQ-33 route last year.
The WTC was not the limiting factor- I think the platforms there were 10 cars. It could have been done before, but "express" service past the local stops was tried and proved pretty unpopular with the increasing Jersey City population (such as myself)
I started at Bway Myrtle and had the J Line.
I rode the 2 to Fulton for the J. The 2 ran local- the tower did make annoucements at 34/Penn. Stations from 14 South were quite dusty, even if the herculean efforts of mobile wash. Chambers appeared to be in good shape, but quite dusty as was Park Place. Fulton was quite dusy- even with more visits from mobile wash and still acrid smoke smell.
This morning I ended at Brooklyn Bridge which had about 20-30 police officers at platform,mezzanine and street levels. The Bridge was full of transit Managers, and true to form they had some wrong info. I did give them the latest info and was thanked.
What is a mobile wash?
I have also ridden a #4 train from Bowling Green to Brooklyn Bridge with my dad, and I noticed that the train was going slow, around 15mph into Bowling Green, 15mph OUT of Bowling Green, 15 mph into Wall St. (which is closed down), 15mph out of Wall St., and 15mph into the next station until Brooklyn Bridge.
I saw a R142A #6 train sitting at the local platform, so I quickly made the decision to take the local right away. (This was the first time I made a through trip on the R142A!, I'll post this later)
1) Any reason for the train to go so slow?
Also, the same R62 #4 train that I rode with my dad, the first half of the train (#1511-#1515) had the old-fashioned "YANKEES" symbol in place of the round MTA New York City Subway logo on the side of the train.
Answers will be greatly appreciated.
Railfan Pete.
The Yankees logos on the R62s are from the subway series ticker tape parade, IIRC.
Mobile wash is the name used for the team of employees using high pressure hoses to clean station platforms and side walls of wall platform stations. They are usually seen during overnight hours.
For isalnd platform stations, they only clean platforms. Track side walls are cleaned by TTCs--Track/Tile Cleaners. At all stations, the mobile wash does the mezzanine.
Elevated stations are usually not done.
The water comes for the truck at street level. the truck has its own supply of detergent and heats its own water.
I have good news!
The September meeting of the New York Division, Electric Railroaders'
Association will be held on Friday, September 21, 2001 at Cooper
Union's Hewitt Building, 41 Cooper Square (entrance on 3rd Avenue at
E. 7th Street) in Manhattan. Cooper Union is accessible via the #6
train (Astor Place station) and the (circle) Q train (8th Street
station) -- walk east from either. The doors open at 6:15 PM, and the
meeting commences at 7:15 PM. Bring your 2001 membership card with you
for admission. The door fee for non-members is $5.
The auditorium is on the second floor and is NOT accessible by
elevator -- stairs only. There is no cafeteria, although vending
machines are available. However, this area of Manhattan has many good,
relatively inexpensive places to eat.
The NYD-ERA wishes to thank "Jeff H." for making the arrangements.
Since not all railfans read this board (horrors!), please tell your friends who go to the meetings -- word of mouth is very important, since we won't have a chance to mail everyone a new meeting notice.
Also, we've been asked to have our meeting-goers come no earlier than 6:15 PM -- at our usual home people tend to come earlier, but there's no room here for people to mill about.
David Ross
Director
New York Division
Electric Railroaders' Association, Incorporated
Wow! Back to Astor Place. Just like the 60's.
Phil Hom
ERA 3620
One thing I'll add is that there is a good deal of legal on-street
parking in the area, especially after 6 PM.
David, could you please let SubTalkers know what is on the agenda for Friday night's meeting/slide show? Thanks.
I assume the WTC disaster will be a focal point of the introduction...
BMTman
Ed McKernan will be showing photos from his collection (1970-date) from:
LIRR (diesel and electric)
NYCT (A line south of Euclid Avenue, plus Eastern Division)
Erie-Lackawanna (the old electric MUs)
Northeast Corridor (Amtrak and NJT in New York and New Jersey)
For the location, etc., please look at the first post in this thread, or look at the "upcoming events" section of this website.
David Ross
Director
New York Division
Electric Railroaders' Association, Incorporated
As the sun is setting heralding in the Jewish holiday of Rosh Hashanah, let me wish everyone a healty New Year and a small respite from all the heartache we've suffered since last Tuesday.
L'shana Tova to all you yiddishe subtalkers out there! May you all have a restful and peaceful Rosh Hashanah. I'll talk to you all on the flipside...of Thursday, that is :)
L'Shana Tova Tikatevu. I wish All of New York City a better 5762.
I wish All of New York City a better 5762.
There's no place to go but up ...
Free me too in Virginia
I'm not Jewish, but I hear you. Happy New Year, friend. Hope it's a better one for all of us. :)
Tony
Ditto
Thanks from all you Jewish & Non-Jewish guys for the Happy New Year.
I'm Jewish, but my wife and son are not. But guess what happened,
my son ended up marrying a Jewish girl! So why are we fighting?
Why did we have to suffer the terrible loss of last Tuesday? Let's
just all live peacefully together!!L'SHANA TOVAH...
Chuck Greene
Todah Rabah! Le-Shannah Tovah. (Thank you and Happy New Year.)
:-) Andrew "MisterK" Kirschner
To my buddy #1 Brighton Express Bob and all my Jewish friends out there may you have a fabulous Rosh Hashanah and an even greater new year.
Thank you to my favorite Republican Dago Schoolteacher
Thank BMdoobieW, and to all of u guys.
Even though I'm not Jewish. I hope u guys and everyone out there in the city have safe Roshashanna and a lucks on finding their love ones.
I just posted elsewhere on the idea the Rector/Cortlandt West Side local stations might be combined into a single large one; as I think about it tho', I don't like the idea. I also have commented that the pedestrian interchange between all the rail stations in the WTC need to be considerably better than they were before.
I'm wondering what's possible, what could be useful with the IRT down there. With the opportunity to rethink things, it'd be irresponsible to not fully explore what can/should be done.
To tell the truth, I'm having pharoanic ideas of a major IRT expansion along West St and 10th/Amsterdam Ave.
from http://www.boortz.com/nealznuz.htm
People like what? People like one Bill Schrempf. He's the CEO of NCCI Holdings, Inc. in Boca Raton, Florida.
NCCI is a company that compiles workers compensation insurance data. How exciting. They have about 850
employes in its Boca Raton offices.
It seems that some of the NCCI employees are proud of their heritage and proud of their country. In the wake of
the terrorist attack some of these NCCI employees decided that they wanted to display an American flag on
their desks. At that point the dynamic Bill Schrempf swung into action. The orders went out to his managers
and they immediately fanned out throughout the workplace confiscating the American flags. Schrempf, it
seems, is afraid that some of the workers in the NCCI offices might find the display offensive.
So, NCCI boss Bill Schrempf finds himself in the same rouges gallery as John Smeaton, the vice provost of
student affairs at Lehigh University in Pennsylvania. Smeaton ordered flags removed from campus busses for
fear that foreign students might be (gasp!!!!) offended!!! The one difference between Lehigh and NCCI is that
at Lehigh there was someone above Smeaton who actually possessed an ounce of sense and some feelings of
patriotism. Smeaton's order was countered in minutes. At NCCI Schrempf is the boss! There IS nobody
above him (unless the Board of Directors calls a quick meeting.)
How's this for a workplace rule. Nobody works here who is offended by the American Flag.
Period. If the American Flag offends you then you are a virtual cancer in this workplace. Pack your stuff and
don't let the door knob hit you in the ass on your way out. Let me put it another way. If I have a flag on my desk
and you try to confiscate it because you are offended -- then you have a damned good chance to be the subject
of one of those statistical records that NCCI collects.
DAMN -- this just pisses me off. Sorry, can't hide it. I wish I had the money to buy that company just so I could
send Schrempf packing.
Now -- it just happens that I don't have any need for a company that compiles workers compensation data. In
the interest of all fairness -- since I have slammed Bill Schrempf and his company -- don't you think its only fair
that I list the company name and phone number? I mean -- just in case you happen to agree with Bill Schrempf
and would like to call and congratulate him! So, for that purpose only ....
Check the NCCI website
NCCI
Seems they corrected themselves
Anyone is entitled to an error of judgment. We're human. The important thing is they corrected it.
Welcome to the Post Clinton Era! where being proud of one's nation in a time of need is 'offensive', getting revenge against terrorist countries is 'wrong', and all our problems are solved by making the criminals in question say they're sorry.
People wonder why Rush manages to hold on. There's a large (and probbably growing) number of people who are fed up with the liberal left and their attitude that all of life's problems can be solved the way they were in kindergarden.
Kissing booboos doesn't bring back 5,000 dead people.
Hopefully, Bush will have the guts to finish up the job that Clinton was too busy getting blowjobs in the Oval office to.
(And if I sound pissed, it's because I just found out my close friend's close girlfriend's brother has been missing since Tuesday and is probbably dead)
I'm sick of this country being too worried about offending people and killing innocent people to do anything. We're been stepped on enough, we're going to get stepped on again until we act.
Next time, it may not be a building, it may be the city. The capeability exists, they have it.
Unless we do something drastic, and do it *NOW*, the WTC is probbably going to be a warm up.
I'm just hoping that when we start seeing terrorist actions that kill 10,000 20,000, 30,000 at a clip, we have someone in the White House who'll push the nuke button.
THANK . . . YOU
I'm glad to see there are still conservative red blooded Americans out there!
Those of you with pen and paper in hand whilst using the subway, please find and jot down lead motor numbers/MU class for:
"M"arys (thinking R32/Shovelnoses from CI, R40M, R42 from ENY)
"J"'s (thinking R32/Shovelnoses from CI, R40M, R42 from ENY)
"Q"'s (thinking R46 Jamaica leftovers from "R"omeos)
"W"'s (thinking leftover 75' MUs from the "N"ancy)
"E"'s (thinking R32/38 Pit-207 , leftover "R"omeo R46s from Jamaica).
Thanks, must update my rouster.
Those weren't exactly what ran on those lines today...
Supposedly they too have now collapsed according to some transit employees. Any one have any more info.
That one's been floating around for days. In fact, I heard it from an RTO supervisor this morning on a (diamond) Q train. As far as I'm aware (and I'm in a better position to hear accurate information than people "on the road," who usually hear it from someone who heard it from someone who heard it wrong or made it up) this has not happened on the BMT. And yes, I corrected the supervisor.
David
>>>>And yes, I corrected the supervisor<<<
Good for you. BTW... I am NOT being sarcastic.
Peace,
ANDEE
Supposedly they too have now collapsed according to some transit employees. Any one have any more info.
There's an old saying that the truth is the first casualty of war. The President says we're at war. You can figure out the rest.
Heh! never heard that one... i'll have to remember it...
I heard from a couple of TSS's that the N/R will be back up in about 4 weeks, so it sounds like the tunnel made it.
Most likely those stations will be bypassed anyway
They're probably going to have to work on the Cortlandt station some. Any word on any B Division equipment in there? I have heard conflicting stories.
wayne
>>>I have heard conflicting stories. <<<
A TRUE first for SUBTALK.......hahaha
Peace,
ANDEE
So now kiss any chance of a"Cortland-BMT/Chambers-IND connection Good-bye.
avid
And the buildings above the line made it! Cool. Now if we can get the Cranberry Street tunnels back in service too...
They are in service. The A and E are using them.
Thank you, yes, I missed that.
It will be great to have the Montague Tunnel back.
I predict the following:
1) IRT repaired and back in service to South Ferry by late '02 to early '03.
2)Manhattan Bridge repairs delayed (by shortage of skilled labor, not budget shortage), but restored 4-track service by late '04-early '05.
3)Restored E-terminal and PATH service in '03, as the WTC foundation is shored up and re-excavated (there is an excellent either Times or Newsday article about that today) and a new construction site set up to replace the trade center.
4) Delays to construction of East Side Access caused by shortages of skilled labor.
Perhaps the shortage of electricians, plumbing specialists, craftsmen (and women!)etc. will be made up by importing them from abroad, or accelerating vocational training here in the US.
I would expect the E terminal service at Chambers-WTC to be up again by the end of this year or early next year, since the MTAwas already running test trains through the switches this past weekend. The station itself may be used to turn trains even earlier to C train service can be restored, with the E discharging passengers at Canal instead of Chambers.
So you're saying that the "C" will replace the "E" at Chambers-WTC station?
Under further review, they probably would go back to the C to Euclid, and the E to Chambers-WTC when it's reopened, unless it was decided they needed the extra 120-feet per train the E provides compared to the C to increase capacity under the East River.
Thank you, yes, I missed that.
It will be great to have the Montague Tunnel back.
I predict the following:
1) IRT repaired and back in service to South Ferry by late '02 to early '03.
2)Manhattan Bridge repairs delayed (by shortage of skilled labor, not budget shortage), but restored 4-track service by late '04-early '05.
3)Restored E-terminal and PATH service in '03, as the WTC foundation is shored up and re-excavated (there is an excellent either Times or Newsday article about that today) and a new construction site set up to replace the trade center.
4) Delays to construction of East Side Access caused by shortages of skilled labor.
Perhaps the shortage of electricians, plumbing specialists, craftsmen (and women!)etc. will be made up by importing them from abroad, or accelerating vocational training here in the US.
Today's Times, p.F7, quotes an engineer who examined the site saying the BMT Cortlandt station is in good shape and trains could be running through it, though not stopping, relatively soon.
I spoke to the conductor of the J train I rode yesterday afternoon. He stated that only Cortlandt St. on the 1/9 was destroyed. (Incedentally, I was standing INSIDE this station's southbound mezzanine right after 2 WTC was hit. Had the building collapsed immediatley, I'd be dead) The BMT stations on Church are buried in rubble and need to be checked as to their structural integrity. Given the precarious state of the Millenium Hilton Hotel at Fulton @ Church, even if the tunnel is OK trains might not be able to use it until the remainder of this building (designated 3 WTC) is shored up or demolished.
I always hated the IRT Cortland St. station. It had a very late 70's feel to the rehab.
Early 80s rehab, actually. The two Cortlandt Street stations, especially the 1/9, were in horrendus shape in the 1970s due to the work that went on above (and below, in the case of the 1/9) during the Hudson Terminal demolition and WTC construction phases, which lasted almost a decade.
As a result, the MTA decided to rehab Cortlandt on the 1/9 before more sensible heads realized coming up with a fancy new design for a traditional box wall NYC subway station didn't work as well as just redoing the station to look the way its original designers intended it to. I'm sure when Cortlandt is rebuilt, they will do it in the traditional Interborough Rapid Transit Co. style, except for the addition of some sort of mural to note the tragedy of Sept. 11.
For the reconstruction of Cortlandt Street IRT -
Hopefully they will find an original hexagon plaque underneath what's left of the brick station wall and make new ones from that. If I remember correctly, it showed a small ferry boat crossing the Hudson
River.
wayne
Let's also hope that the disaster will lead to a renovation of Rector BMT. I think it has the last refrigerator tile in Manhattan.
Rector's lack of passenger activity, especially on nights and weekends, is probably why the MTA corporate tile job has lasted longer there (even 28th St. gets a lot more business nowadays). Unless the debris stream was forced down the tunnel, I doubt any of the Rector fridge tiles were damaged, but hopefully, some of the regular M&O money along with the federal relief dollars will go towards fixing up all of the damaged downtown stations.
I thought Cortlandt was rehabbed in conjunction with the WTC construction. Guess I was wrong.
Which other stations were rehabbed under the policy of creating something entirely (or mostly) new? Here are the ones that come to mind:
most Broadway and 4th Avenue BMT local stations (refrigerator tile)
137th Street
34th Street/6th Avenue IND (not BMT, although the two were done in conjunction)
Essex Street wall platform (or was that simply a later addition?)
Hoyt Street IRT
I suppose the three BMT stations originally designed in IND style and recently redone in BMT style qualify as well.
Bowling Green on the IRT, which was rehabbed/expanded with the addition of a new uptown platform and underpass in 1974-75, when it received its tiling similar to the 49th St.-7th Ave. station on the BMT.
And, of course, all the platform extensions from the late 1950s on the IRT uptown local stations between Canal and Astor Pl. on the 6 and north of Times Square on the 1 got the rectangular tiles the TA fell in love with between 1955 and 1968, which have been or are now in the process of being removed.
I think the Shuttle at Grand Central with its modern-art, railroad-motif frieze would also qualify; it replaced that 60's pop-art tile they put up after the 1964 fire. ALSO: Fifth Avenue on the "E" and "F", I don't care how you slice it; the tile is the wrong size and it is NOT in the true IND style.
OH yes: 149th St-3rd Avenue Bronx, where they destroyed all but one of the original cartouches (the survivor resides at the Transit Museum)
AND: The lower level of 59th St-Lex although that whole station came after the fact...
At Hoyt Street IRT, they DID leave some of the original work, see the east ends of the station.
wayne
Yes, how could I forget Bowling Green?
(The somewhat similar rehab at Wall left the original poking through the brick.)
I don't think the IRT platform extensions count, since the original stations were left basically intact. My local station is among the extended and I've seen no evidence at all of rehab plans. (Incidentally, why were the stations north of 96th extended earlier than the ones south? Those extensions are vaguely INDesque, yet not in conflict with IRT design.)
Fifth Avenue is really strange. Did it once have standard IND tiling? When was it redone? Seventh Avenue is somewhat removed from standard IND style. And Lex has no tile at all -- did it ever?
The Grand Central pop-art you mention -- are you referring to the white walls with colored bricks? That was nothing special but I liked it anyway.
IIRC 5th Ave. on the IND had standard IND tilework on the platform sides on each level. The arched ceiling on the upper level was painted concrete. The VHS sleeve of The Wrong Man has a photo of Henry Fonda standing on the platform at 5th Ave. with the tilework visible.
Grand St. and 57th St.-6th Ave. also have that TA rectangular tile. Very bland, IMHO.
But at least there they didn't replace or obscure anything better.
Same thing with Grant Ave. on the A -- it was the first station to get the rectangular tile design, while Grand and 57th-6th were the last. After that, of course, they came up with the MTA refrigerator design for the BMT B'way-Fourth Ave. local stops, which managed to take a bad design situation and make it worse.
Grant Avenue (ca. 1956) was NOT the first to use the 5x10 tile - it was 179th Street (ca. 1950). AND technically, the 1948 IND stations (Liberty, Van Siclen, Shepherd, Euclid) have the same size tile, but it is landscape oriented (10x5).
Grant was the first to use textured tile, it is two tone green (Light Nile Green with Bottle Green accents). Pretty nice looking still - VERY fifties!
wayne
I really like the colors at Grant.
Some of the West Side IRT extensions have similar tiles, but they're beige with black text -- blah. (They're still a good deal better than what the East Side got stuck with, especially the green ones.)
Incidentally, around the middle of 96th Street (Broadway), the tiles are missing on both walls for about 15-20 feet.
And, hopefully, making it fully ADA compliant.
thats not true. bofore they made the temporary line changes, the n/r was running throught those stations but not stopping at them. the tunnel is fine. if something was wrong, service would not go throught there right after the collapse
Overall, it wasn't too bad. I'll never forget an R42 coming in to Bay Parkway. Bay Parkway station is too long as is, there's about 50 feet left over from the end of a full trainset to the end of the station. I remember one guy calling on the phone to tell someone that they had to move up at the staion because the train was stopping short. (less cars) There was one bad thing, but I think it was the C/R's fault. He kept saying "the is the M to Court St making all stops on the N line." Only when we got to 8th Avenue, did he make the announcement "when we get to Broad St, M trains will resume regular M service." He kept saying that until 9th st when I guess the T/O told him to just say "M to Metropolitan Ave." Makes it much less confusing.
There were HUGE crowds of passengers at 59th Street and 36th Street. More at 36 though. When the passengers got on, they were still confused. To add to the confusion the W pulling in across the platform was not stopping at Pacific because of a police investigation due to a "suspicious" package. This made the passengers on the M go to the W and come back over. At Union Street, the C/R was announcing that all trains in all directions would be bypassing Pacific Street and Atlantic Avenue. I saw 2 passengers who were friends get on and after hearing the announcement they got off and stood on the platform. They were obviously waiting for another train that wouldn't stop at Pacific.
On my way home, I got a R40slant at CI. Wasn't too bad except for when I got off. These 2 teens yelled into the T/O's cab: "Why the hell did you stop so far back? What the f*ck is wrong with you? etc, etc,... Those ignorant kids...
I do have a question though... I assume the (Q) got all of it's 32s from the E and the E got 46s from the R, and the R got replaced by 40/Ms and 42s. Where did the (Q)s 68s go?
I might be missing some things, and if I am, they'll come later.
Those R68s are still running with R32s on the circle Q to Forest Hills-Continental
There were a bunch of weird car assignments on the BMT today.
Check out some pictures of them at my website www.nycrail.com
Check out the pictures at my website: The Other Side Of The Tracks: A Website Devoted To The New York City Subway
I'd imagine so. The Q needed cars to extend to Queens, the M needed cars for extension to the Sea Beach. I'd imagine there were more R- 46 on the E than usual.
Yes. R46's from the R were shipped out from 95 to Parsons and Pitkin yard.
R-32 on the Q? That's not weird, that's just a homecoming from 1964:
Where was thge picture taken? It looks like West 8th in Coney Island
Probably Brighton Beach, since that was the southern terminus for the Q then as now (the diamond Q, that is). Those R-32s sure do look bright and shiny.
Bob, the picture is on this site. Check out the rolling stock section. The end car of the Q Brightliner is no. 3359. The station is Brighton Beach, looking west. October, 1964. Absolutely my favorite subway picture.
They looked a lot better then vs. now, and it's not only because they were new in 1964.
Well, the fronts definitely looked better, which is one more reason why I'll miss the Redbirds when they're gone -- the GOH never gave their turtle-back roofline area the "Cyclops" look the R-32s and R-38s got after rebuilding.
The blue doors also look far better in the `64 photo, but at least I can understand they were a casualty of the graffiti scourge of the 1970s and 80s. Oh, and the little MTA sticker on the big R-32 plaque area looks odd compared to the original TA logo the cars came with.
Yea, I loved the original large ta logo, too.
Yes, the GOH has definitely denatured them some. I also remember the blue number plaques with white lettering to go with the blue storm and side doors. In fact, blue seemed to be the predominant color - dark on the outside, light (aqua seats and powder blue walls) on the inside. Now you've got the added benefit of good working A/C (I remember all too well riding on the R32 in the summer without it!). I think they should have left the bulkheads alone during the GOH, but what's done is done.
My first time on an R32 was November 22, 1964 and it was a Sunday "QB" via Bridge (North Side), the equivalent of today's Circle "Q". I believe the unit number was 3405. My Grandmother and I rode it from Cortelyou-Road to 49th Street. Of course we were in the front car. I remember there was a four-man rock and roll band along for the ride complete with their crew, and crates of drums and amps on wheels. They must have been heading to a gig in the city. They got off the same stop we did, 49th Street.
wayne
I remember my first R-32 ride as though it were yesterday - July 21, 1965 on a shiny new N train.
Beautiful shot!
I posted that same phote a couple of weeks ago off Dave's R-32 page to show the best example I could find of the illuminated side route signs, and since it was a Q-Brighton train, it fit this thread perfectly as well.
Now that is undoubtedly, indisputably my favorite subway picture. The Q Brightliners before GOH. I know that picture is on the site. But anyway, thanks for posting it!
Once again, the R-32s have come home.
Albeit minus their blue doors and original bulkhead signs. That "Q" on the front of #3662 sure looked like an "O".
wayne
It sure does, doesn't it?
Why does your link bring me back to the SubTalk Message index?
Railfan Pete.
Are you going to add the Lower Manhattan Changes to your next track map book edition? Who knows when the Stations & Lines will be restored?
I've always been wondering about those "extra tracks" at 42nd St. Times Square on the 8th Av. line.
I've ridden a s/b E train down 50th St. many many times, and I notice that:
1) We are periodically (sometimes) being held for up to 5-6 minutes because of a signal which indicates that the C local is ahead of us. Come to think of it, the C train is NOT even in the 50th St. upper level platform, and we are just wasting time for nothing.
2) The train travels around 20mph to accomodate a TRACK SWITCH (with sparks) that shifts to the right onto the C and E local track. This happens all the time. I am thinking this has something to do with the tracks which accomodate the lower level of the station.
I would like to see a TRACK MAP of this if possible, as to where and why we always switch tracks between 50th St. and 42nd St. Times Square.
Also, the answer to the "hold-up" question (the 1st one) will be greatly appreciated.
: )
Railfan Pete.
Head to the track map section on this site.
Let's see. Washington National is still closed; while it will likely re-open (Congress would have fits if *their* airport were permanently closed), it seems it will see tremendously restricted service, compared to now.
If and when the LGA-National shuttle ever resumes, and presuming LGA enforces a 2 hour check in time, plus the hour it takes to get from Midtown, plus the 45 minute flight itself, plus whatever time it takes to get to one's ultimate destination -- all this means the train will be faster.
As a practical matter LGA JFK and Newark really are at capacity. There's a bit more they can do with larger aircraft and enhanced technology, but the airports really are maxed. Eventually, they'll shed short hops for longer flights, which means no more air shuttles.
Maybe it's time to speak of a MagLev in the NE corridor. Certainly, everyone is going to be looking at better train service. Congress is threatening to liquidate Amtrak (but we know better).
I think Amtrak just won a reprieve from Congress. One thing I'd like part of the $20 billion to do is speed up the catenary replacement project and lift speed restrictions on Acela.
Do you think there will be enough to sink a second Amtrak-NJT tube under the Hudson, so there are 4 full-time tracks from NJ under the Hudson to NYC-Penn Station?
If a new railroad link across the Hudson is to happen, I suspect it would be from the Bay Ridge LIRR r.o.w. to Elizabeth and the NE corridor, a project that's been 80 years aborning.
As a private not-quite-fantasy, I'd also do a bridge-tunnel complex across LI Sound, a la the Chesapeake Bay bridge-tunnel complex, to eastern CT -- with a heavy rail component (for cars the toll would be in the $30 range one way, but considering the big detour you'd save, worth it).
What are the prices of the competing freey service?
"Maybe it's time to speak of a MagLev in the NE corridor."
Ugh! The Germans couldn't make a go of mag-lev so they've tried to palm it off on us Americans -- or anyone else who'll buy it -- so they can make back some of the money they've sunk into it.
IIRC, the feds are projecting a cost in the BILLIONS for a demonstrator line from the Pittsburgh suburbs and airport to downtown Pittsburgh. For the expense of a mag-lev demonstrator only a few miles long, you could probably build something like the French TGV or the Shinkansen all the way from DC to Boston.
Ugh! The Germans couldn't make a go of mag-lev so they've tried to palm it off on us Americans -- or anyone else who'll buy it
Hope springs eternal.
As a practical matter LGA JFK and Newark really are at capacity. There's a bit more they can do with larger aircraft and enhanced technology, but the airports really are maxed.
The airlines and airports are maxed out only by the number of flights not by the number of passengers.
Consider last week's 4 tragic flights. The planes that were crashed into the WTC had a total of 137 passengers. The 767-200's that were used had a passenger capacity of 181-255 depending on configuration. That means these planes were averaging 38% occupancy.
Consider the other two flights. These had a combined total of 96 passengers. The 757-200's that were used had a passenger capacity of 192-239, depending on configuration. This means that these planes were averaging 25% occupancy.
If these occupancy factors are typical then there is a lot that can be gained from far fewer flights. The rule of thumb used to be that an airplane flight had to have 70% occupancy in order to be profitable. I have a suspicion what AA's and UA's motivation was to run non-profitable flights; it wasn't passenger convenience.
The Port Authority website does not show its pre-crash information. However, if I remember correctly there were approximately 2200 daily passengers out of LGA to Washington and a similar number to Boston. I assume that the figures were similar for Newark.
I heard on the NBC Network News, that Delta may move the Shuttle to Dullas
On those lines, since National Airport is closed indefinitly, USAir is out of a hub----rumor has it a lot of the flights are going to be transferred to BWI. BWI does have transit service to Baltimore on its light-rail....maybe this will force an extension of the Green Line north from Greenbelt to the airport. Also, it would be nice if all this puts a rail-extension to Dulles on the "fast track".
I think you're more likely to see an expansion of the MARC Penn Line service to service BWI more frequently than the existing service on weekdays, and addition of weekend service should National Airport be closed permanently. Perhaps with a rushed schedule for the connection between the BWI air and rail terminals.
Expanding DC Metro all the way up to BWI is a pipe dream at best, lots of ROW issues to contend with there. Now expansion to Dulles being pushed through more quickly could happen, but to BWI, I wouldn't bet on it, especially since there is already reasonable (though limited) MARC service and Amtrak too.
Probably shoudl also through-route MARC with VRE, so Virginians can get to BWI more easily.
It would be a nice thought, but still isn't too likely to be too convenient. VRE could likely get slots on the NE Corrdior up to BWI for some of their trains, but they would be unable to run any more trains in VA to offer more frequent service since CSX doesn't have the capacity to give VRE more time on the rails down there.
That will really make the "shuttle" total travel time downtown-downtown silly when compared to Amtrak.
Unfortunately, MARC trains between DC and BWI don't run weekends.
Bet they will, soon enough.
They will? I know there have been proposals to bring back some Saturday service, but hadn't heard anything definite about it. Are they talking Sunday now too? Any references?
A few flights are flying from there but Dulles won't win over with the frequent fliers. Its Reagan or bust.
Your assumptions about "typical" load factors on flights is the weak link here. A big assumption to make, upon which all your calculations depend.
Your point is well taken. I have not read what the recent overall occupancy factors. Perhaps, you could enlighten us as to with current airplane occupancy figures.
I did not make any calculation. The 70% requirement for flight profitability is based on fuel use and the high percentage of fuel that is burned on takeoff. That used to be a fairly well known benchmark.
I remember a couple of experiences that I had on the old Eastern shuttle out of Boston. They had about two dozen passengers for a second section. To avoid making that flight they offered all sorts of inducements for seated passengers to take the next flight, including a free round trip to any destination on Eastern. They would go to great lengths to avoid an unprofitable flight.
The WTC attack has changed everything for the short term. The airlines will be seeing fewer passengers for a while. On the other hand, Amtrak will be seeing more passengers.
I don't have current (prebombing)figures, which ideally should be presented broken down by travel season.
I hope that, by spring, things will start to look a little better.
I don't have current (prebombing)figures, which ideally should be presented broken down by travel season.
Those are monthly figures and are broken down by air carrier.
The BTS website shows that the 4 quarter moving average for passenger load factor was 71.10% for domestic airlines for the first quarter of this year. This is the latest figure and represents a 1.40% increase from the previous year.
The 4 quarter moving average had been around 72% between Jul 98 - Jun 99. The airlines have been on the edge, with the breakeven point of 70%.
The international flights have been running 76%.
What these figures are not showing is how much or little they are charging to keep these figures up.
OK - but now you have a good starting point for creating scenarios.
Good for you, Stephen.
The WTC attack has changed everything for the short term. The airlines will be seeing fewer passengers for a while. On the other hand, Amtrak will be seeing more passengers.
I don't have current (prebombing)figures, which ideally should be presented broken down by travel season.
I hope that, by spring, things will start to look a little better.
I'll bet it won't even take that long for air traffic to recover. People have shorter memories than one might expect. My guess is that air traffic will have substantially recovered by the end of October.
That's certainly possible. We have business to conduct, and ultimately, people will be in the "we need to get past this and move on" mode.
"I have a suspicion what AA's and UA's motivation was to run non-profitable flights; it wasn't passenger convenience".
Those low occupancy figures are a function of 2 other factors. The flights were on a Tuesday morning -- probably the lightest travel day for coast-to-coast travel -- and also the lack of profitability of most U.S. businesses these days.
When I fly NYC to Calif on a Monday morning, the plane has been about 75% full in recent months. Earlier this year, a Monday morning flight would have been well overbooked.
Tuesday's are considerably lighter -- probably less than 50% full these days. Which is more than the 25% on the hijacked flights, but I generally fly long distance from JFK which may just have higher loads.
One of the biggest motivations in flying those flights at such low capacity rates is that they do have much higher loads on Mondays and Fridays. Airline union contracts mean that they have to pay the crew for a full weeks schedule. That alone wouldn't necessarily justify the fuel costs, but they also need to have the planes move around the country for other flights which may have higher loads. (the same plane which flys a 40% full JFK-LAX on Tuesday morning might fly an 80% full LAX-DFW in the afternoon.)
Even without the attack, the airlines were going to have to cut schedules considerably in the next few months. Some had already announced such before last Tuesday. Others (Continental and US Air) clearly had such moves under consideration and Tuesday's events just made the need more urgent.
CG
In July, I flew AA from Dulles to Dallas to SAn Diego, then back. Out of the four legs of the trip, only the trip from Dulles to Dallas was less than full capacity.
the same plane which flys a 40% full JFK-LAX on Tuesday morning might fly an 80% full LAX-DFW in the afternoon
The last time I checked (several years ago) the average flying time for each domestic commercial airliner was 8.3 hours per day. That includes time runway waiting time.
Those low occupancy figures are a function of 2 other factors...
I'd assumed that the majors are very reluctant to give up any takeoff slots.
No, not a MagLev, more live a TGV. For defense if not economic reasons, we shouldn't build a non-standard system on such an important route.
SF shuttle CAN go to the outer loop. Ignore my old post. Check here.
Indeed it can.
Welcome to the Club.
Manhattan has one-way bus lines. Why not one-way subway lines?
The affected tracks would have to be resignaled etc, but just imagine being able to have the Montague tracks being unidirectional during rush hour, with things getting back to normal at Pacific & Atlantic.
Brooklyn bound commuters would have to use the IRT or IND -- which is not impossible.
It'd be like having the other side of the ManBridge back, and maybe, even better because of the speed restrictions on the bridge. Is it possible?
What do you do with the trains when they reach Nassau Street? You can't make the WB unidirectional against the flow of heavy traffic in rush hour.
For all the times I stared out the front window when going thru the Montague tunnel, I never quite figured out the switch into Broad St (and very rarely actually took the train to Broad).
As for a unidirectional Montague line, I can't remember the DeKalb config well enough to see if it's possible, tho' I think it should. The signals and braking system, etc, tho' would have to be totally redone, and that couldn't possibly be done till the ManBridge is fully back.
I remember reading of a similar proposal (this one official) for the Queens IND, where three tracks would be dedicated to rush hour (two expresses, one thru local), and one local track to the opposite direction.
The problem is what you do with all the extra trains at the terminal: you gotta have room for them.
Unbalamced services (much more trackage one way than the other) requires careful logistics. Where will you put trains that can't return? What if you need to return equipment before the rush is over?
The LIRR has several lines where there is only a single track (most of Ronkonkoma, Port Jeff, east of Patchogue) or where both tracks run in the direction of heavy travel (Babylon Line, Main Line from Queens to Hicksville). This is dealt with by having big service gaps in the non-rush direction (of hours) and moving some equipment onto long passing sidings.
On Babylon and Main Line they both restrict counterflow travel and do some real fancy switching.
It's not a walk in the park. They manage to run the Main Line Penn-Jamaica three and one--this wouldn't be feasible except for the large West Side passenger yard.
On the elevated system they did a heavy two-and-one by running counterflow trains close together with visual rules--I don't think anyone would stand for that today.
Maybe if you have three tracks or more, you can make trains return through the local return track (after they reach the rush hour terminal) without stopping at any station until they reach again the departure terminal, starting again the one way service through either the express or local track.
The Queens IND would be possible (if all trains didn't have to return) because four trains can fit past Parsons/Archer, and (theoretically) 6 can fit at 179st (allowing one track on each level for turning). Plus, the express tracks from 169-Sutphin can hold trains until normal 2:2 is resumed (and can hold trains for strategic deployment in the AM as well). However, the F and R have through running in Manhattan, which means the rush runs both ways.
There are no one-way bus lines. There are bus lines on one-way streets, but each bus line on one one-way street returns on a different one-way street. There are a very small number of local bus lines -- I can't think of any in Manhattan -- that operate in one direction only in the morning rush hour and return only in the evening rush hour.
I don't think it's a good idea. Keep in mind that, while most Brooklyn travel in the morning rush hour is northbound, most morning rush hour travel in the rest of the city is southbound. People living uptown, in Queens, and in the Bronx who work downtown won't appreciate having to (a) walk further, (b) change trains, and/or (c) go into Brooklyn and backtrack. (And then there are the reverse commuters and the people who work at nonstandard times.)
I appreciate the problem.
With a CortlandtBMT-8thAvChambers hookup, however, one-way rush Montague tube service makes perfect sense. There's no degradation to present bi-directional service in Manhattan, but an increase in Booklyn rush service. DeKalb, Lawrence and Court-BH in Brooklyn are the only affected stations, and there's plenty of alternatives available there.
There'd be about a 50% net increase in rush Brooklyn service via the Montague tube.
And, all-in-all, it's *cheap* to do. Considerably cheaper than a new East River tube.
I don't see what you're after. Where exactly will the one-way section lie under your proposal, and how will "reverse" commuters (reverse to the Brooklyn trend, at least) get where they need to go?
I laid it out. We are speaking of Montague tube service. The switch to one-way is between Atlantic/Pacific, going into DeKalb. We pro'ly gotta dig a switch-ditch to do it at DeKalb.
Lawrence St. and Court-BH are one-way at rush hour: both tracks go in the same direction. It goes back to normal as it switches into Whitehall or Broad, all the usual turnbacks (the Broad approaches would, as I consider, probably need to be revised).
It makes the best sense if we connect the Broadway-BMT to the 8thAvChambers, while keeping revenue service on the S-curve via the St. Paul's Chapel graveyard into City Hall Station.
This is a 50% increase in rush hour Montague tube service -- certainly at some cost, but most certainly considerably more cheap than a new East River tube.
This means there is a new 8th Av local station about where the BMT Cortlandt St. station is now. If you build this station right, and are prepared to compromise downtown service to Whitehall, the increase in rush service to/from Brooklyn would be closer to 100%.
This is a *cheap* proposal. Doable.
So, in the morning rush hour, southbound trains would terminate at Whitehall and Broad?
What do you do about the confusion factor?
Check out my website. I've been playing with Photoshop. I like the way this pic came out with the flag and the old WTC. It's VERY hard for me to look at this pic I took of the twin towers over the summer. :(
Train Buff Headquarters
I'd always thought that stock market investors were ignorant schmucks. Now I know for sure. Today's huge selloff following the resumption of stock trading was, in some ways, a bigger slap in the nation's face than anything Bin Laden and company could manage. By succumbing to fear, investors gave a big resounding no-confidence vote to the whole American system, the same system that we supposedly will fight to the death to defend against terrorists. Forget all the flag-waving and ribbon-wearing. That's meaningless posturing. When it comes to putting their money where their mouth is, Americans - or at least the stock-trading portion of the population - are guilty of the worst form of hypocracy.
God damn it, I am angry.
You seem to think that these, capitalists, care about things like loss of human life, and demises of economies. I'm only 17, but I think it's been obvious to me for a while that to some people money is the most important driving force in some people's lives. They own so much more stock than the average American because they've been working as hard as they can to screw others since day 1, and 5000 dead is not going to slow them down.
As for the ordinary, patriotic American with some morals, I don't know if they're any better. All the flags and ribbons and junk suddenly popping up in places you'd never used to see them makes you wonder if people are acting patriotic just to be part of the show, as in Nazi Germany way back when. I wonder how many of these people buying up all the flags would've done so on an ordinary Saturday had the WTC not just fallen.
Sorry if this message was way too pessimistic, I've been that way recently.
Honestly I think the terrorist blew it. It they attacked at 10am the towers would have been full and the stock market open. I truly beleive if this happened with the market open the Dow would have dropped 2K.
As for the markets drop. It's demand that drives the market not supply. Volume was heavy but considering the market was out for 4 days not incredibly heavy. Some people had to sell Airline stockholder had margin calls. The drop is not from selling it's more from people not buying and you can't fault people for not wanting to buy anything with travel or insurance on it. Several DOW components were huriting already and this does not help them. As a Percentage this was number 14 on worst days despite the huge number it dropped.
Personally AT&T is probably a buy at this point and Ford may have bottomed out. Retail sales will probably go up even with the donations many retailers are making.
Long week
Honestly I think the terrorist blew it. It they attacked at 10am the towers would have been full and the stock market open. I truly beleive if this happened with the market open the Dow would have dropped 2K.
More people indeed might have died, but there probably wouldn't have been any huge drop in stocks - the markets would have closed almost immediately.
I have stocks in our retirement fund and, even though I took a hit, did nothing, neither bought nor sold.
A market is a market. People are selling on fear--after all the hits of the past two years a number of people are probably panicking that they'll lose their retirement savings. Sorry about that--this is just human nature.
I wouldn't want to see a "rah rah patriotic rally" that would later collapse, that being worse than an early selloff until investors can cool off and catch their breath. I expect the market will recover substantially and selectively after people see what kind of leadership we have in Washington.
I wouldn't want to see a "rah rah patriotic rally" that would later collapse, that being worse than an early selloff until investors can cool off and catch their breath. I expect the market will recover substantially and selectively after people see what kind of leadership we have in Washington.
I wouldn't have wanted a "rah rah" rally either. But some semblance of normalcy would've been nice. Yes, that might have involved a fairly substantial drop, as investors (focusing as usual on where the economy's been, not where it's likely to be going) have been in a fussy mood lately. But this sort of panicked, sell-at-any-price rout was a national disgrace.
Of course, some analysts have been saying well before September 11 that there'd have to be capitulation before any sustained rally could be possible. Maybe today was this capitulation.
It wasn't sell-at-any-price. If it was it would have been far far worse.
People might get smart and buy the real bargains. I don't think I'd bu airlines right now.
I wouldn't buy airlines either! Anyway, we've suffered bigger percentage drops that this one (was only about 7%) and recovered. This was a knee-jerk reaction. Wait till the institutional buyers to step in and pick up the pieces. TOKYO Nikkei exchange is UP strong as of this hour, so check the Dow/Naz/S&P futures in the AM they should be up smartly too. What am I doing? Sitting tight, roller coasters go UP and DOWN too.
As for the speculators etc. It is naught but gambling.
wayne
Plus with the Fed lowering interest rates, that makes any potential return on bonds and certificates of deposit lower than they were before.
I suppose you could go into gold or silver, which are still trying to regain their 1980-81 highs, or just stick it in the safe deposit box or under a matress. Those will work if the economy really is in a free fall, but as of now, this just looks like Wall Street's version of the gas- and food-buying panic that hit some areas of the country last Tuesday, the subsided.
I suppose you could go into gold or silver, which are still trying to regain their 1980-81 highs
Hundreds of millions of dollars' of which are buried in the WTC rubble.
Actually, they are in a pretty secure vault, somewhere beneath what's left of 4WTC.
wayne
Though don't think someone's not out there right now trying to figure out if it's feasible to get at all that stuff during the cleanup phase of work.
as of now, this just looks like Wall Street's version of the gas- and food-buying panic that hit some areas of the country last Tuesday, then subsided.
Or (I'm really dating myself here) the Great Toilet Paper Panic of the early 1970's. A TV host, Johnny Carson I believe, joked on the air that there was an upcoming nationwide shortage of t.p. People were unusually sensitive to the thought of any shortages as this was about the time of the oil crisis. Stores nationwide sold out of toilet paper in very short order and there were reports of price-gouging. And yes, it was nothing but a joke; the nation's supply of bunghole wipe was as ample as ever.
>>> "it was nothing but a joke; the nation's supply of bunghole wipe was as ample as ever"
Peter, suppose for a second it wasn't a joke. Did you think people would use their suit trousers to clean themselves up?
I don't think the LIRR would have liked that.
:-)
It was sadly expected.
The funny thing is, where the f*ck are they going to put the money? in the bank? into CDs? whatever. Anyone with half a brain knows that if you want to invest long term and see great returns, you should be in the stock market (even if just a good mutal fund). The people pulling out are short-sighted idiots who'll probably regret it down the road.
I'm in it for the long term. I have a mutual fund, and I want the price to be as low as possible so that I can buy more shares. I still have 45 years before I can remove it, so I can afford to lose money right now. I'm guaranteed to make at least 11% profit (based on stock market history), so I'm not worried one bit.
I hate to see my portfolio keep getting lower and lower. I also hate to see anything belong to me lose their value. The stock market will have to have a long and proven upward trend before it can restore my confidence. In the meantime it's CDs and savings accounts for me!
The stock market will have to have a long and proven upward trend before it can restore my confidence.
By that time you would have missed the oppurtunity to buy, unless you want to sell short.
I can never understand what those stock traders will do next. After a few months of trading, I come to realize that those traders are usually nothing but a bunch of cowards. Even when a company posted a profit, it won't satisfy them unless the profit report is "better than expected" than what analysts had predicted. If it's "in-line" usually the stock ends the day in the red. But of course these past several months you'll be lucky to hear any reports that are "in-line".
I gave up ever since. I've concluded that stock traders are nothing but greedy capitalist cowards. Luckily most of us have contributed to the WTC aid relief effort in some ways or another so that's something we all can at least be proud of.
Remember that much of the American public invest in the stock market by way of their retirement plans (401/403 or pension). So when you say that market investor are "ignorant schmucks" then you might as well say every person is an ignorant schmuck.
The market should pick up. Both NYSE and NASDAQ have controls in place so the market doesn't totally bottom out.
>>> When it comes to putting their money where their mouth is, Americans - or at least the stock-trading portion of the population - are guilty of the worst form of hypocracy. <<<
After calling these people who sold hypocrites, how many shares of stock did you buy? The basis of capitalism and free markets is everyone acting in his own self interest.
Tom
I hope no one takes this the wrong way, but other than the South Ferry problem, I actually like this new subway configuration. I'm willing to bet that when all the stations are reopened, people will cry for the system to be left this way. I'm wondering how the J and M are handling this capacity if they're only 8 cars. For once, the TA actually put together a pretty good plan. The BMT is really powerful now. Like New Yorkers of all races and colors, even the Eastern and Souther divisions have come together in this time of crisis. :)
Tony
The J is horrible with the 8 car config. This morning rush was horrible, I can usually get a seat with no problem (77th Street is only 2 stops from the terminal), but this morning it was packed and only got worse. It seems as though they are running them more frequenty (8 min headways instead of 10?), but the crowding will be an issue.
That is about the same amount of service, bothe give you about 60 cars an hour service. The 60 ft equipment has more door and fewer seats, that might be a part of it, plus people are changing their riding habits and 10-15 minutes can mean a great deal.
I should say around 3600 ft of cars per hour not 60 cars per hour.
Yup I gotta agree, the TA put a good plan in place, it didn't differ much from the reroutes planned here.
And if they keep this they can get more mileage out of the new cars
I agree that the plan is quite good given the circumstances (my only major quibble is with the unnecessary cancellation of C service and consequent service reduction on CPW), but do you really think that Sea Beach and Bay Ridge passengers want to transfer to get anywhere in Manhattan north of Delancey Street? And what do you do with lower Manhattan -- just close City Hall, Cortlandt, Rector, and Whitehall permanently?
My mother called me from Florida about 9:30 last Tuesday when she found out about the WTC attacks. One of the first things she said was that it must have been an inside job.
It looks like she might have been right. MSNBC reports that a carton of boxcutters was found stashed on one of the diverted flights that landed in Canada. It's a bit too much to imagine that a passenger could have smuggled the box past even the most somnolent airport security worker. What sounds likely is that the box was planted in advance by someone with employee access to airliners. I also suspect that something similar happened with respect to the four hijacked planes. The whole plot could have been blown wide open if even one of the terrorists had been stopped at security.
I think you may be right on that one,dude.
My guess is that the hijackers passed security last Tuesday, without the boxcutters in their possession. They probably had someone place the boxcutters somewhere in the airport for them to retrieve to take aboard the plane. Just tape each boxcutter under a chair in the waiting area, or under a garbage can in the bathroom. Or under a sink in the bathroom. Masking tape can easily sustain a boxcutter. And who would look under a bathroom sink, garbage can, or waiting room chair?
Except that those who planted the items would have needed to go through security as well.
-Hank
Except that those who planted the items would have needed to go through security as well.
Unless they were airport/airline employees with behind-the-scenes access. Maybe even security staff.
Why would they even have had to work that hard? They could have simply picked the boxcutters up in a local hardware store and simply walked through the metal detector with them. Airport security what it is (or was), it proabably wasn't hard to slip them past.
There need to be some BIG changes made to airport security.
Andrew
Unfortunately, every time they make "serious changes" to security, they just end up inconveniencing everyone/invading everyone's privacy while adding little real security.
For instance, you used to be able to fly without providing an ID. Now you have to. This adds no security, since those with criminal intent will just have a fake ID.
Unfortunately, every time they make "serious changes" to security, they just end up inconveniencing everyone/invading everyone's privacy while adding little real security.
For instance, you used to be able to fly without providing an ID. Now you have to. This adds no security, since those with criminal intent will just have a fake ID.
That photo ID requirement had precious little if anything to do with security. The airlines presuaded the FAA to impose it, citing security reasons for public consumption, in order to make it impossible for people to resell tickets they couldn't use.
>>> They probably had someone place the boxcutters somewhere in the airport for them to retrieve to take aboard the plane. Just tape each boxcutter under a chair in the waiting area, or under a garbage can in the bathroom. <<<
That is really foolish. If they were going to have someone else such as and airport employee pass the weapons through security to be retrieved by them they would have chosen something more effective than box cutters like guns. Box cutters were something that if detected by security would be innocuous enough not to be considered a weapon.
Their final plan was simple enough that they needed no outside help from anyone.
Tom
Getting more like WWII all the time. Fifth column?
Considering the amount of misinformation being handed out by the mass media, I don't trust this account.
It's unlikely one of the diverted flights would have been used as one of these weapons, since those diversons were international flights, and would not have yeilded the same results as the flights that were used.
-Hank
Many domestic flights were diverted to Canadian airports.
(The whole plot could have been blown wide open if even one of the terrorists had been stopped at security.)
The lowest bidder. Kind of makes you wonder about privatization, doesn't it? The way to make money is to bid low and win the contract, then fail to deliver the service.
As for my Mom, she was due to visit NY twice this fall, but is now unwilling to fly.
i guess because of the collapse of our beloved WTC. Also in the Daily news. the day of the collapse, at the Fulton St. Station, people were evacuating the R-142 6301-10, 6310 in the picture
Not only that, but the Q line actually has several R-32 cars, both on the local and the express (although the express ones seem to show circles instead of diamonds around the Q). Also, I hear the Q train was skipping Atlantic Avenue this morning (Did anyone else hear about this? It's nowhere near the World Trade Center!)
- Lyle Goldman
The R32 cars on the circle Q were from Jamaica Yard, the ones on the diamond Q were from CI. Unfortunately, the R32's on the diamond Q showed round Q signs since they do not have diamonds, but they did have Brighton Beach & 57/7th in the sign boxes.
Trains were skipping Atlantic Avenue and Pacific Street for part of the AM rush on Monday, September 17 (and the LIRR was staying away from Flatbush Avenue) because of a bomb threat. There will no doubt be a great deal of this over the next few weeks. Let's just hope they are all unfounded.
David
Yup I heard an announcement this morning that LIRR will not be serving Flatbush avenue. These jerks with their bomb threats. Making a bomb threat should be a capitol offense. It is so sick that people are making these threats after what happened a week ago.
For easier reading: General text is marked as is, topics are listed in bold type, questions will be underlined, and stressed portions will be in italics when needed.
My dad and I took a trip to NYC this past Saturday to observe and "cheer on" for America with the rest of the New Yorker crowds.
The white smoke trail is still there, not seeming to be moving anywhere. My heart broke as I stood there staring into the clear sky which was supposed to behold the twin towers before it was destroyed. Police, newscasts, garbage (container) trucks, and special vehicles with appropriate ID from the driver were only allowed to cross the POLICE LINE.
I stared in disbelief as to how many "MISSING" posters I have found taped onto the street lamp poles, traffic control boxes, and on I-beams in Penn Station.
My dad and I took many pictures, and people were there donating, buying, and writing on the ribbons near Holland Tunnel.
Our last part of the trip was at Battery Park during dusk.
This was the main theme.
On our train trip there:
1) My dad and I were lucky enough to get on board an R38 train (#4613) heading s/b at Penn Station NY. (I've been seeing a lot more R38 trains lately during a short time period).
We boarded the train and the doors closed silently!
I figured out briefly why it did:
a) Right on top of where the doors are located (besides the levers and bars that move to open the doors), I saw a metal rod (bar) stretched alongside the entire width of the doors.
There was a yellow sticker pasted onto it which read:
"DO NOT LUBRICATE WITH WD-40 OR ADS33-124 (??) ....."
b) If these bars are not supposed to be lubricated with WD-40 or some other chemical mentioned, what is it lubricated with?
c) The express ride was GREAT! We were flyyying past 23rd St. into 14 St.!!
d) We detrained at Canal St. and viewed the horror relief scene there.
2) After we have finished exploring the "ghost town" of Battery Park, we headed to the BOWLING GREEN subway station where the entrance is within a stone building right next to Battery Park.
I have noticed that Battery Park has become a private campsite for storage of Army trucks and workers.
The SERVICE ENTRY and EXIT door was taped open with red orange tape, with an off-duty token booth clerk, and a construction worker having a conversation with each other.
When my dad and I decided to go in, other people were getting in too. The same tape that held the service door open blocked the two turnstiles in that entryway.
My dad consulted the construction worker and he simply replied: "JUST WALK RIGHT IN". My dad was happy about it, and so was I.
e) Would anyone know why this would happen? I really enjoyed this part.
When we got to the center platform, BOWLING GREEN WAS A GHOST STATION. The lights were still on, but the third side platform, the lights were off, and it seemed that the ENTIRE platform has been boarded up with wood, marking the construction phase of "WE ARE REPLACING 8 ESCALATORS AT THIS STATION." There were large areas of the center platform too, which were boarded up.
We walked down and over to the UPTOWN platform, and we noticed that the people walking in from the other side walked in by paying the fare.
Going up the escalator, and waiting to see an R62 #4 train (lead car #1511), the entire station was quiet, warm, and with few construction workers and passengers. The entire first-half of the car (#1511-1515) was of a YANKEES logo in place of the MTA logo on the sides of the train.
We got off at Brooklyn Bridge to see a R142A #6 train sitting there waiting for the dispatcher's bell.
We quickly got off the #4, and headed for the #6. (Boarded car #7483
This began my first, through trip on an R142(A).
DURING THE COURSE OF THE TRIP TO 51 St.- Lex Av., I NOTICED SOME PROBLEMS.
(NOTE: This may attract salamallah, but here goes.)
R142A DEFECTS on car #7483:
1) One of the doors on the left side (R9) WOULD NOT OPEN. It stayed closed for the duration of the trip. But door #R10 opened, which left one half the entryway.
2) BRAKES SQUEAK VERY LOUDLY.
3) Conductor on board this train messed up several times with the automated messages.
For instance (this actually happened, without the "R142A story"):
F: "This is a Bronx bound, 6 train. The next stop is, Astor Place."
M: "Stand clear of the closing do--." (Doors lock closed)
F: "This is a Bronx bound, 6 train. The next stop is. 33rd St."
M: (Doors close first, then: "Stand clear of the cl---".
F: "This is a Bronx bound, 6 train. The next stop is 42nd St. Grand Centr--"
M: "Stand clear of the closing doors, please". (Doors close).
4) Everything else worked out fine. A lot more passengers boarded along the way, but I didn't take notice of the LCD signal.
f) Also, anyone know how the door mechanisms work on the R142(A)'s? They seem to LOCK closed when they close.
Here was my fan trip on Saturday's posting.
Answers to questions will be greatly appreciated, comments, and responses as well.
: )
Railfan Pete.
They are rushing the computer system. That's why the announcements are being cut off...
.. I don't like it when they do that. Any reasons?
Railfan Pete.
WD40 is not considered a lubricant for greasing applications.
Metal moving parts that are connected must be greased with a solid based lubricant, not a propellant oil.
Going up the escalator, and waiting to see an R62 #4 train (lead car #1511), the entire station was quiet, warm, and with few construction workers and passengers. The entire first-half of the car (#1511-1515) was of a YANKEES logo in place of the MTA logo on the sides of the train.
This R62 #4 train pulled into the station at around 10-15mph. This same train left the station at around the same speed.
It passed the next station, Wall St. (which was closed) at around 10-15 mph. It pulled into Brooklyn Bridge at 15mph.
We quickly caught the R142A #6 train, and the same #4 train pulled out of Brooklyn bridge at a good 25mph.
!!!!! Coincidence? Any reasons?
Railfan Pete.
I am trying to graphically depict the damage underground as a result of the World Trade Center disaster. I'm having a hard time finding reference to show great detail about the various underground levels (NYC subways, Path trains, sewer, electric, etc.).
Anyone have any information/renderings that could help me?
Don't know if this is exactly what you wanted, but the New York Times has a big article about the problems and potential problems engineers and rescue workers face down in the basement/foundation of the former twin towers.
Seth
nice. thanks. great article!
Today's Post had a picture of the various underground levels. I couldn't find it on their online edition, however.
Could you do me a huge favor and possibly snail-mail me a copy of that article, including the graphics? This whole episode, as tragic as it is, has gotten my architectural juices flowing and I'm wondering how I would go about rebuilding the WTC if it were up to me. Any sort of diagrams or drawings of the underground levels would be greatly appreciated (bonus points if they're drawn to scale.)
Also, if anybody else has drawings of the WTC area (either above ground or below ground) that are fairly detailed and drawn to some sort of scale, I'd greatly appreciate it. Contact me in private and I'll send you an e-mail with my snail-mail address. Thanks in advance!
-- David
Chicago, IL
It's not very detailed at all, but I'll scan and email to you this evening.
This is a pretty cool article about the building of the WTC.
http://www.newyorker.com/FROM_THE_ARCHIVE/ARCHIVES/?010917fr_archive06
-Dave
Great article. Thanks for info Dave.
Paul
Anyone with information as to the new MU assignments with the "N"ancy and "R"omeo out, please post here. Thanks!
There are no MUs assigned anywhere in the subway system -- only subway cars. (Yes, technically, NYC subway cars are Multiple Units, but that term typically refers to passenger railroad equipment, where not everything is MU, not to subway equipment, where everything is MU.)
As to what CARS are assigned where, what was on the road Monday, September 17 and will be on the road for a while is TEMPORARY, subject to change, and probably not worth recording because of its temporary nature. That said:
J: R-40M/R-42 with an occasional R-40 (Coney Island)
M: R-40 (Coney Island) with an occasional R-40M/R-42
Q (circle): R-32 (Coney Island and Jamaica) and R-68, with an occasional R-68A
Q (diamond): R-40 with a reported R-32 (I didn't see it in my travels, though)
Others can fill in the missing pieces.
David
I define any set of electric traction motor cars which number more than 1 and are controlled by a single operator as MU's. The days before MU operation was perfected, it could be said otherwise. Some say Cars, or MU's, it's really a preference. With the new fleet coming in that has motor-trailer-motor (or however the set-up), they are still MU's, but not all are motor cars, or MU's. :)
Railroad passenger equipment is not usually composed of MU's, but a Engine proving HEP or Hotel power to the trailers.
"Railroad passenger equipment is not usually composed of MU's, but a Engine proving HEP or Hotel power to the trailers."
This is just my point! This is why some (commuter) railroad equipment has to be designated as MU in the first place. Subway cars are not considered railroad equipment, and so the term "MU," while technically accurate, is not used in the world of subway cars.
I know I'm picking nits here. I simply think it might be confusing to those not familiar with the terminology to see it being applied in what is a strange, if technically not incorrect, fashion.
David
It would be safe to assume that most, if not all people using this board are knowledgeable about the "MU" designation. I didn't think I was THAT much of a buff. =)
The above is right on so far.
Also, the E has R-32s from Pitkin and Jamaica, R-38s from Pitkin and R-46s from Jamaica.
Regards,
George Chiasson Jr.
(Widecab5@aol.com)
The World Trade Center was the perfect place for a terminal, but now with it gone, and the high possibility of a memorial being built on the site of where it once stood, the E and Path should be extended. The E to Battery Park City and the Path to Bowling Green. I think a last stop at a site of the worst accident in history would not be right.
"I think a last stop at a site of the worst accident in history would not be right."
accident accident
are you nuts are stupid this was no accident.
I beleive he ment to say disaster. While I don't presume to speak for Chris, I don't beleive it is for you to question his sanity or intellect.
Now make nice nice.
avid
We in this world have become so numb by having to be "politicaly correct"---I think this was one of those moments---We all know it wasn't an accident but or subconscious won't let us face up to the true horror of the situation.
I take it then that we are in agreement.
avid
It is a virtual certainty, 100%, that a large commercial center will be rebuilt on the site. We need to replace 25 million square feet of office space. That means that the PATH terminal will reopen ultimately, and the E station will, in most probability, also.
Having said that, the availability of reconstruction money may indeed provide a budget to extend the WTC PATH line beyond the old terminal, or provide for some new interchanges not available before. That's possible.
I understand your feelings, Chris, but abandoning the WTC site for a memorial means abandoning a lot of people who have to support their families and bring food home to their babies and grandparents etc. It also means NYC's tax base would shrink, so those less fortunate than ourselves do not receive critical government services. This cannot be allowed to happen.
We pay respects to the dead, but not at the cost of hurting the living. If we do that, the victims will have died in vain.
There is more than one way to memorialize the dead, and the Oklahoma City solution would hurt all of us badly. Forget it about it, and look at other solutions with an open mind and a willing heart.
That pic was actually made by my friend SnoAnglPryncess, one of my fellow ravers here in Seattle - it has since spread around the internet multiple times. Pretty funny eh? Amazing what techno-loving glowstick-dancing candy-wearing kids can come up with.
Christopher Rivera, the MTA-prez-to-be kid with all the 2nd Ave plans? Been conspicuously absent lately. Hope he's OK. Anyone heard from him?
Oops there he is. Never mind.
Almost all Q trains are R 68/A although I did see quite a few R 32s on the Q in action. I also saw an 8 car R 46 G train I thought they couldnt fit 8 car R 46s on the G line? the E is R 32/R 38 and the F as always is R 46.
I'm thrilled to finally see some variety on Queens Blvd. An R68, complete with its silver interior and big rollsigns--at 71-Continental! I haven't yet seen any R38's, but I'm looking forward to it.
I only wish it had happenned under better circumstances.
Andrew
>>>>>>>>I thought they couldnt fit 8 car R 46s on the G line
Sure they can. All platforms in the IND can handle 10 cars (8 R44/46's).
...and some 11 60' MU units too
Lets put it this way: The B division platforms are signalled for 10 car, 600 foot trainsets.
Not all platforms have the capability to handle 11 60' cars.
63rd Drive and 67th Avenue immediately spring to mind.
They used to be able to. Someone (MTA?) shortened the platforms. The tunnel lights at the RR south ends of the stations (both 67th and 63rd) are consistent with the old incandescent platform lighting pattern. Also, about 60' into the tunnel, there is a yellow pole (for a "do not enter or cross track sign"), and for that 60' the catwalk is unusually wide. All they have to do is tile the wall and they can run 660' trains (though they'd have the same type of platform situation as the ends of PATH stations along 6th ave).
What you say is partially true. The platforms were NOT shortened. They were planned for 660 ft, but were truncated during construction to speed things up.
Their current design would lend itself to be lenghtened with less trouble then say Liberty, Van Sicklen and Sheppard Avenues.
Funny you both shoul mention these stations as I was seeking out their south bound ends as I wizzed by this A.M. on the "F".
BTW since I changed my travel patterns i NO longer advocate making Woodhaven/Slattery Plaza an express Stop. My reasons are purely selfish, as they were when I used that station.
(selfish) avid
I also saw an 8 car R 46 G train I thought they couldnt fit 8 car R 46s on the G line?
G trains have always been running 8 car sets of R46's. They don't have any other car type. Of course, they're not going to run half the train with 4 cars, that is just silly. And all IND platforms can handle ten R32-38 cars or 8 R46 cars. (which is the same length).
the E is R 32/R 38 and the F as always is R 46.
Yes this is true. On our way to Roosevelt Av. on an R32 E train, at 23rd St. - Ely Av., I saw a R38 E train headed towards Manhattan!
I knew this because something on the other train caught my eye, it looked like an R32, but something else was there, then after the train left, I saw on the back the DOT symbol, the blue circle with the red dash through it. Only R38's have that.
I think it's good to see a little variety on the Queens Blvd. line too. I go there once a week on a Sunday.
Railfan Pete.
G trains have always been running 8 car sets of R46's. They don't have any other car type. Of course, they're not going to run half the train with 4 cars, that is just silly. And all IND platforms can handle ten R32-38 cars or 8 R46 cars. (which is the same length).
Actually they have been running 6 car sets during weekdays... But once in a while a 10-car set of R-32s creep in. 8-car R46 Gs are very rare.
There are about 12 to 14 two-car sets of R46's to make 6 cars trains possible.
Wrong. The normal MU assignment for the "G" is 6 R46's.
Some IND platforms can handle *11* 60' car units.
The "E" is also R46 on occasion, as Jamaica sees fit.
Not to start a flame war here, but it's been said before and I think it needs to be said again (and it doesn't apply only to "Railfan Pete," though it certainly applies here): Please don't post information as fact when it's a supposition...and a wrong one at that.
As others have said, 6-car R-46s are the norm on G trains (during the week; on weekends, it's four cars). All G stations are long enough to handle either 600-foot-long or 660-foot-long trains.
Also, there is no "blue circle with a red dash through it" on the R-38s, nor is there a "DOT symbol," since no DOT has anything to do with the cars. What IS there (on the front of the car) is a modified NYC Board of Transportation logo (modified to reflect NYCT(A) operation) that was installed when the cars were overhauled ca. 1987. The logo is black and red, not blue and red.
David
Looks more of a brownish colour than red,like a mix between the two.
OK...we'll settle on "maroon," then, I think.
David
LOL......
I saw a R-68 #2790 at 71 Ave on Monday. And it do have the roll sign for 71 Ave. I was going to exept a R-40S BUT A R-68!!!! THAT'S SOMETHING!!!!
I realise that this is a bit of a side issue given events in NY, but I thought that some subtalkers might find a bit of relief in it.
I've just returned from a couple of weeks in Java, and although my purpose was not railfanning, I made a couple of observations that you might find interesting.
Jakarta, a city of between 8 and 12 million, depending on whom you talk to, has no rapid transit system as such but it does have an electric urban commuter system using overhead power. I only spent a few hours in Jakarta and didn’t see much of this system, but the cars appear to be of Japanese design and probably manufacture – stainless steel, square shaped, fluted sides. In appearance they reminded me of Melbourne’s Kawasaki cars, but I realise this won’t mean much to sub talkers except perhaps Brighton Beach Bob. They normally operate in six car units, MTMMTM. Both the cars and the system generally appeared to be in good shape and well maintained. Jakarta is also planning a subway to run right through the centre of town, north-south.
Passenger trains have three classes, Executive, Business and Economy. Executive has air conditioning and airline style seats. Business has no airconditioning, while economy is pretty much what you'd expect, although much better than "hard" class in Vietnam. I travelled executive from Jakarta to Bandung and Bandung to Joyjakarta. The overall approx 350 km trip took 9 hours, which I thought wasn't bad for a narrow gauge system operating through hilly country. The service between Jakarta and Bandung was excellent, but it is also something of a prestige route. The Bandung-Joyja leg was not quite as good, the cars a little less clean, the track a bit rough in parts.
Motive power that I saw was mostly Co Co DEs. They looked like EMD products, although I couldn't locate a maker's plate. They were long bodied hood units with lowered front noses, very similar in appearance to the Australian Queensland Railways 1500 class (although this won't mean much to most subtalkers), which makes me wonder whether EMB make a standard product for narrow guage lines. Some of the express hood units had a streamlined ACLEA style front, which may have improved performance, but was not an unqualified aesthetic success.
All in all, my experince with Indonesian Railways was excellent, although I shoud note that in the week before I arrived there was a 24 fatality crash near Cirebon. And while I don't want to buy into the issue, I should also mention that all the Indonesians I spoke to were shocked and horrified by the WTC and Pentagon attacks. Indonesia is, of course, a predominantly Moslem country.
Interesting report. Thanks for posting it.
Have Photos? Send to Dave for Posting?
Sorry, I'm a hopeless photographer. Some of the people I was with may have got some photos. I'll check it out and let you all know.
I did not know Jakarta had commutter rail, as to Melbourne, I remember each of the 2 systems had 2 different types of rail cars, but never looked at the manfacture.
After re-reading your post, The Java rail may have purchased their equipment from Australia rather then Japan
Bob (and I'm sorry I got your handle wrong), I don't know the answer to this, all I can say is that some of the earlier model Jarkarta cars were similar in appearance to the Melbourne Kawasakis. The later models, on the other hand, had molded fibreglass fronts and full width cab windows.
I didn't get too much of a chance too look at the cars because, when I arrived at the Gambir Station in Central Jakarta - a modern, elevated station serving both suburban and long distance trains - I was struggling to get a ticket for the last train that evening to Bandung. Eventually I bought one from a scalper. This seems to be a common practice, at least around the Gambir, where locals buy up tickets - allegedly with the connivance of station staff - and then sell them to last minute travellers at inflated prices. The official cost of a ticket Jarkarta Bandung ws RP32000 - about $US 4 - but I paid around $US 7 for mine. Even so, it was still pretty cheap by Western standards.
No problem
When I first saw the message header, I though it concerned a train simulator program ...
Study your World Atlas
After all curiosity and the need for vibrancy, that no where else has overwhelmes fear. I plan on visiting Manhattan tomorrow. It's amazing that one week after this disaster, the financial district is back in business. Also with roads closed south of Canal street, most of Chinatown will be for pedestrians only.
I wonder what all the new subway lines will look like. I'm darn curious to see those R68's on Queens Blvd, J's on 4th ave, and all the other wacky subway stuff.
We must not give in. And yes, I realize now I'd like to see the WTC and the Twin Towers rebuilt, and the skyline whole once again.
5,000 or more have probably died, the biggest tragedy NYC has ever suffered. But NYC got through blackouts, riots and will get through this, if we do not give in to fear.
One of the reasons I have been so depressed is because it's almost two weeks since I've seen Manhattan, and I've decided it is better to find out what it's like for myself and hope the vibrancy is still there, than assuming it's not.
And I know Mom is up there to help 5,000 new arrivals to Heaven, and God will bless their souls (souls never die) and ours as well, through this difficult and trying time.
FYI, there were many cars in Chinatown when I went today (went to get 2 lbs of pistachios for $6), but I was at Grand St., which is a few blocks above Canal.
As for the wacky subway stuff, it certainly is something to see.
Throughout the centuries, the concept of Hell has been depicted in various ways by hundreds of painters, sculpters, and other artists.
I think this photograph comes as close to the real thing as anyting ever done to date.
-- David
Chicago, IL
My hometown in Connecticut has a few thousand people that commute into the city five days a week, both by metro-north and car. I was very concerned for my hometown with the disaster that has occured, but as of now (I pray that this doesn't change), NOBODY is missing from my town. But there has been one success story too: someone escaped from the 44th story. Thank God!!! -Nick
I mentioned in a previous thread about E Trains operating from Parsons-Archer to 2nd Ave. This was incorrect as trains operate out to Euclid.
BUT, they are terminating at 2nd Av during the night hours, leaving only the A's to run in Brooklyn. The service pattern is similar to that of the C train - no C's to Brooklyn after a certain hour.
On the subject of 2nd Ave, I have discovered the Crew Quarters, it's across from the booth on the 2nd Ave end of the station? Also on that note, the Part Time Booth over there, is staying open all night, which is highly unusual. I can see Station Agents being reassigned as a result of Booth Closings due to the WTC disaster. Subway-Buff, feel free to comment on this.
-Stef
2nd Avenue was particularly busy tonight. Not only were the Es coming in, but the Ds were also stopping there (due to a GO) leaving the junction pretty full of Ds,Es, and Fs.
A note about B5 and B6 tracks going into the wall: the signals, that formerly designated the end of trackage at the old false wall were moved back from within the platform limits to in the tunnel beyond where the false wall would be located. The signals are modified to display a single red aspect, rather than the double red used previously. At least without the false wall, trains can approach the station at a faster acceleration.
The single red aspect just beyond the platform in the tunnel seems to suggest the trackage going into the wall will be unused. Is that the case?
-Stef
You were correct a few days ago - the E's were ending at 2nd Avenue for most of last week.
Sometimes they do open a booth that is not scheduled to be opened. If that is the case then Stations assigns a S/A to that booth. When the regular time comes the S/A is escorted over to their booth (or told by supervision it is already opened and was open all weekend.) In the absence of supervision, the escort does their usual thing
While reading yesterdays papers, I can across an article that said that Fidel Castro deplored the attack on the WTC, but stopped short of approving military retaliation.
Now while reading posts on this board with Ch.4 news on the TV comes this news blurb. Libyan "madman" Mommar Khadafy says the United States has every right to retaliate to this terrorism. I nearly fell off my chair !
CAN YOU BELIEVE THAT ?
Also a few more items here.
1) A friend of mine was listening to the Rush Limbaugh radio show when a caller suggested as prevention of future terrorist attacks that a missle with a nuclear warhead be poised at MECCA. If one more American life is lost in an attack, then MECCA will be flattened.
2) VIEQUES ! Remember that island ? The Navy using it for bombing practices and the staged protests that made headlines. What happened to the protests ? Maybe we needed that practice for the upcoming bombing ?
3) Rev. Al Sharpton must be beside himself with Rudy Guiliani and the WTC attack getting more headlines pushing him out of the limelight.
4) The Ch.5 phone poll posed this question: Would you like to see Rudy Guliani's mayoral term extended one year. results: YES 96% NO 4%.
5) This subway note, Now that the (J)s are going to 95th St Brooklyn, the side roll sign for the GOH R-32/38s have a brown diamond J that says J JAMAICA/ NASSAU ST/BRGHTON. So the (J) is not off the mark.
That's all folks !!!
Bill "Newkirk"
That comment about Mecca is disturbing. It neglects that Mecca is in Saudi Arabia, a staunch U.S. ally, one that deplores the activities of Osama bin Laden so much that it went so far as to strip him of his Saudi citzenship.
Mark
let's hope no one takes it seriously.
Bill "Newkirk"
Aiming a nuke at Mecca will give bin Laden the "Holy War" that he wants. One which is not anyone else's aim.
>2) VIEQUES ! Remember that island ? The Navy using it for bombing >practices and the staged protests that made headlines. What happened >to the protests ? Maybe we needed that practice for the upcoming >bombing ?
Those guns can't reach that far inland, and Afghanistan has no coast to bomb.
So I guess this rules out an amphibious invasion.
Will this get the Marines pissed or what?
avid
But Iraq does, if it turns out Saddam was the money man behind the attack.
Those guns can't reach that far inland, and Afghanistan has no coast to bomb.
Does that mean that if the draft is brought back, I can avoid combat if I yvan eht nioj?
That Cross dresser Mommy Khadafy is just covering his @$$. He has a better wardrobe then "My Fair Lady"
Al Sharpton is just dumbfounded, can't seem to find a way to work this for himself.
At the end of his term, Rudy too, must OBEY the law. Its a quality of life thing.
Fidel wants to keep the illegal American tourist that go to Cuba via Mexico or Canada and don't get their Passports stamped. That and the Euros that go there for cheap vacations.
I don't trust the Pakis, they are bargaining there coperation...
I don't trust the Iranains , they are religious zealots....
Rush Limbaugh has always had some sort of flys buzzing around his extreme rightwing mounds of opinion...
avid
Right On, bro'
Channel 5 is off the air, well at least their over the air signal. Man you cable folks have had almost all the NYC TV stations while I only got a few.
This seperate feed business. Urrghh. Chalk up another reason to get cable. I wonder who here doesn't have cable? I bet I'm one of the few.
I don't have cable.
I have a satellite dish.
I get all the local channels right now. And the channels from LA. I love the Pacific Time Zone, finally TV on MY schedule (primetime from 11PM-2AM Eastern).
Yeah I'm gonna be getting out of the TV "dark ages" soon. 5 is now back on the air, though fuzzy. They said something like only 20-30% of TV households use only air signals, so I'm definately in the minority. I can't even get Transit Transit. :-(
The proud, the few ... the cableless :)
No cable here.
--Mark
I would not advise you to attack Mecca, in that you would be doing exactly what the fanatic Bin Laden would want you to do, so that he could say " See, the enemy of the faith has caused this destruction".
He would foam at the mouth with glee at such a thing, which would rally a billion Muslims to his warped ideas. Target him alone, and leave the Muslim faith out of it, because he is to Islam like the Aryan Nations are to Christianity. Eventually he will slip up and get done in by one of his own followers, that is, if the USA does not get him first. If you look at history, you will see that this is what happens to characters like him.
I wasn't advocating bombing Mecca, just repeating what I heard on the radio. The idea wasn't bombing it, just a real threat if another American is killed in a senseless terrorist attack.
Maybe the author of that idea was echoing the frustration of many Americans who feel enough of us have died or been maimed by certain religious fanatics and frankly enough is enough.
Sorry for any miscommunication.
Bill "Newkirk"
No problem. Just remember that fanatics will take on any thing to help further their agenda, and they will do this to the pain and suffering of the rest of us.
...and MECCA would be?
Mecca is a city in Saudi Arabia, and is the holiest of holy sites in the Muslim religion. A tenant of the Muslim faith is that all Muslims make a pilgrimmage to Mecca at least once in their lifetime if they are physically able. Dropping a nuke on Mecca would be an act of cultural terrorism akin to nuking the Vatican. The next thousand generations of Americans would have hell to pay for doing something like that, and we'd deserve it.
-- David
Chicago, IL
Ah... should it concern thou that a Pro Wrestler
wears the letters 'MECCA' on the butt of his shorts?
And MECCA isn't even IN his ring name?
Can't help but wonder the subliminal meaning.
What Pro Wrestler would that be?
LuchAAA.... Observe Sean Stasiak of
the WCW/ECW Alliance on WWF Programs..
Wow. That's right. I wonder where that gimmick came from. "MECCA of Manhood"?
1) I that is the voice of an angry American and should not be something that our leaders should consider (David Cole's post said it best).
2) The kind of war that we are going to be fighting IF we end up in Afgansitan would not be related to the 'war games' that were conducted on Vieques. The war we are getting into will likely be more traditional 'hand-to-hand' as opposed to bombing missions since there are relatively few 'ground targets' to bomb.
3) Come on. Even Al Sharpton probably knows people who lost their lives in the WTC disaster. That's a cheap shot.
4) Rudy should leave the Mayor's Office on the appointed date to leave. After all, it was HE who instituted the idiotic term limits in the first place.
5) Good point
BMTman
...it was HE who instituted the idiotic term limits in the first place.
Bullshit. Term limits were on the ballot in the 1993 election, the same one that elected Giuliani.
How could Giuliani have placed the item on the ballot, if he wasn't in city government?
As usual Pigs, you are good at pointing out faults of others...
What I MEANT TO SAY was Giuliani WAS A BIG ADVOCATE OF TERM LIMITS. He can't have it both ways. He'll just have to wait and sit on the sidelines till 2005.
BMTman
I wouldn't pay much mind to the caller on Rush Limbaugh. His audience consists of "dittos", people who proudly proclaim they have no minds of their own. The caller probably had no idea where Mecca is, and just thought it was the capital of that country where Aay-rabs live.
(Mecca isn't even the capital of Saudi Arabia, BTW.)
Of course, any such action would be essentially tactical, political, and moral suicide.
--Andrew
Have a R-32 yet running on the J or M Lines?
"Have a R-32 yet running on the J or M Lines? "
Not that I know of. But if that ever happens, the roll signs are ready for it.
Bill "Newkirk"
Today, We look at Railfans.
In light of the events of this past week, we are very likely to see a
crackdown in railfans near the railhead. Everybody and everything may be
perceived as a threat. So with that in mind, let's dive into today's topic.
Railfans are everywhere; they lurk about in seclusion or right out in broad
daylight. For the most part, they are not evil and wicked; they just like
trains or one or more of the many facets that make up railroading in
addition to the actual movement of the trains themselves. Hell, even I'm a
railfan. My advantage is that I get paid for my hobby though. However, not
all railroaders are railfans and this very fact needs to be kept in mind at
all times. I'll get into aspect that later.
Most of your average railfans are not troublemakers. They are out enjoying
their hobby. Most people have a hobby of some sort or another. I have little
or no interest in some of the things other folks like and have a serious
interest. I don't see their hobbies as wrong unless they are of the illegal
variety, but that is a different story and subject. Even though I have been
involved in some illegal, immoral and fattening situations over the years,
we won't go there.
Railroading is a highly visible occupation and going concern. We pass
through numerous communities on a routine basis. We cannot help but be seen.
In fact, history shows us that at one time most communities wanted us there.
There are stories of how some communities pitted themselves against others
in order to get the railroad to build in their town as opposed to another.
Some resorted to cutthroat tactics to get the railroad to come into their
towns. The railroad was an incredible asset. Having a railroad come into
your town would almost guarantee growth and success.
Being that we are highly visible, we attract people to the railhead almost
in droves. We don't go out and recruit them; they just come and look. Many
people, even non-railfans think trains are neat. I have been told this many
times over the years when somebody I meet learns I am a railroader. I
usually get twenty questions (or more) when they discover I railroad. There
is an unusual fascination with trains. Over the last twenty-three years, I
have probably had my picture taken more than the President of the United
States.
Most people short of athletes, race car drivers, TV and movie stars
generally do not have people following them around on a daily basis
photographing their activities in the performance of their jobs or recording
the sounds their jobs make with either audio or video recorders. When is the
last time you saw a magazine called "Architects Illustrated" or observed
advertisements of videos watching accountants crunch numbers in their
offices? Face it, office jobs are, for lack of a better term, boring to
watch. They are not very appealing to somebody looking to take pictures or
record sounds.
A major portion of your daily life involves railroading other than getting
caught by a train at a crossing at the most inopportune moment. Many folks
use the railroads on a daily basis to commute to and from work. Some use
Amtrak or VIA in North America to get to and from business and vacation
destinations. Coal fired power plants provide many people with lights,
heating and cooling. Much of the coal used at these very plants moves by
rail. Numerous finished automobiles move by rail. Many of the parts and
components used to assemble these autos very likely move by rail. There are
numerous other commodities including shipments of the US Postal Service and
United Parcel Service moving across North America's rails on a daily and
routine basis.
Then as now, it takes a special breed of person to be a railroader. As I
have mentioned in past columns, a career in the rail industry is nothing
like your daddy's job, unless daddy was a railroader. We are certainly a
different bunch of men and women performing the duties required of our
crafts in the rail industry.
I am generally very tolerant of railfans and will oftentimes cooperate with
them in the pursuit of their hobby. This may include something simple as
brightening up the headlights for a few moments (when possible) while
sitting and waiting on a meet to make a better picture for them. Or I may
give it some throttle to get the power to smoke it up a bit for them when
departing. In a few cases, I have gone a little further than the rules allow
in having some of them come on board and get a look around. I have even
given a few rare cab rides. There are some who read this column that have
been party to some of those rides over the years. Most railfans are
generally very appreciative of my efforts in to assist them. Unfortunately,
that does not mean all railfans.
Some railroaders are annoyed by railfans. To these employees, the railroad
is nothing more than their job. They are not bad railroaders; they are just
not interested in railroading for more than their paycheck. They do their
jobs to the best of their abilities and go home. When they walk out the
door, the job stays there in the office. They do not understand or care
about the allure of the rails. These are the ones that tend to get really
upset when some overzealous or even some average railfan crosses their path
metaphorically speaking. And some railfans fail to grasp this notion. They
will continue to bug a railroader even when that very railroader shows them
a clear case of indifference to the fan and their questions. When they don't
want to be bothered, don't bother them plain and simple. Leave them alone
and walk away. They do not owe you an explanation about anything.
When these railroaders see railfans going to extreme measures to get that
great shot or doing something rather foolish along the right of way, they do
not hesitate for a moment to call them in and report them as trespassers or
vandals. Sometimes they may report them even when they are doing nothing
wrong short of a little trespassing.
A few years ago, "RailNews" magazine did a piece that about glorified the
stupid antics of a couple of railfans. These two characters did things that
not only violated laws; they at times, put themselves in peril while doing
them. And the worst part was they seemed proud of their stupidity. These are
the kind of railfans that make it bad for all the rest. I wrote to the
Editorial staff at RailNews complaining of the article, but the letter was
never published.
We are going to take a look at a few of the stupid things some (certainly
not all) railfans do that pretty much ruin it for all the rest.
We'll start with that so-called "picture to die for" takers. Some of the
really overzealous fans will position themselves in such a manner as to
almost be struck by the approaching and passing train. I have witnessed from
both the cab and the ground, fans with tripods set up or just standing
holding their cameras within the gauge of the rails while the train
approaches them. They clear out of the way at the last possible second.
There were many that did this around Porter, IN a few years ago when there
was a convention of one of the railfan organizations in Chicago. The problem
became epidemic and had some Engineers putting their trains into emergency.
They began to interfere and interrupt the operation. The solution? Conrail
immediately made the area off limits to railfans. Signs were posted
designating the area as private property and that trespassing would not be
tolerated. They began to arrest trespassers. They did not ask questions,
listen to explanations or give out second chances. You went to jail, period.
Charges were filed and the offenders had to go to court. Some ruined it for
all.
Others take it upon themselves to stand within the gauge of the rail on an
adjacent track. It may very well be another main track or a siding. They
cannot be certain that another train is not coming up behind them. Just
because they didn't see one a minute ago doesn't mean one isn't showing up
now.
I have actually heard some railfans claim "I know when to move as I can tell
how fast the train is going." Really, how? By the sounds the train is
making? There are times I may be in run 8 pulling a very heavy train but
going very slow. You are looking into my headlight. How can you judge my
speed? Or how about the times I am coming downhill with a very good running
train? I am in run 1 or 2 going 50 or 60 mph, but not working them very
hard. It may sound like I am going slow, but I'm not.
I have observed trespassers (as I don't feel these folks are a true
representation of railfans) perform other feats of shear stupidity to get a
photo. I have observed them climb up on signal masts and bridges with their
cameras in hand. Signal Maintainers have been killed or injured when they
have slipped or lost their grip and fallen from these structures. And these
folks are trained and skilled in their profession. Others have been observed
hanging from bridges, the sides of cars and even on top of cars parked on
adjacent tracks. I have observed them climbing up or already on top of
railroad structures such as signal cabins, shanties and buildings. I even
had one character ask me if he could climb on top of my lead unit so as to
get a better shot of an approaching train. Needless to say, I told him "Not
a chance."
When I see jokers like these, I either call it in on the radio or phone the
CN Police directly. Yes, I have their number in the speed dial on my phone.
These people have no place on the property and I have no problem seeing to
it they are removed, forcibly if necessary. If they are willing to do
something this dangerous and foolish to get a picture, what other acts might
they commit? And the worse part is, some of these characters bring their
small children along with them and allow these kids to witness random acts
of stupidity. How's that for teaching your children well?
I have witnessed some attempting to get a "souvenir" of their day's outing.
Ever wonder why some station signs and milepost markers turn up missing?
Some so-called fans feel the need and right to remove them and take them
home. These signs and markers are there for a reason and it is certainly not
for your removal. You don't have to have station sign in your family room so
badly that you should resort to theft. You can easily order a replica of one
from a sign painter or even a catalog that specializes in such items.
Then there are the garbage dumpers. They shoot 90 rolls of film and proceed
to dump the empty film boxes and canisters onto the right of way when
finished. They also eat their lunch or munchies and again, toss the
wrappings along the right of way. I wonder if they would mind if I stopped
over by their house, climbed on the roof without permission, tossed all my
garbage into their backyard, stole the address numbers off the mailbox,
maybe for kicks, urinated onto the patio and then drove across the lawn and
went home?
I have dealt with too many overzealous fans face to face. One character
proceeded to climb aboard my lead unit uninvited. He entered the cab and
basically demanded a tour of the cab. I politely instructed him to get out,
as he was not allowed up here. He got belligerent and a bit unruly. He told
me that others allowed him. I proceeded to tell him it did not matter what
the others did; I am here now. He still refused. He then asked for my
timetable as a souvenir. Actually, he pretty much demanded it as he was
determined to get something out of this visit. It was obvious that reason
and politeness would not work here, so I got extreme. I flat out told him to
"Get the f*** off my engine right now!" He told me I was being rude. When I
made an advance towards him in a very threatening manner, he quickly
departed for the high country. Now had he come up along side the cab and
politely asked permission, I may very well have allowed him to come on
board. We were in the middle of nowhere and it was not very likely that the
weed watchers would be lurking about. Others I spoke with about him told of
similar stories of his pushiness. He had told one Engineer that he "owned
stock in the company and therefore, it was his right to be up in the cab."
I saw him several times along the right of way after that. He would do dumb
things like stand in the gauge getting a picture as we approached. He gave
me the finger one time as I passed him. I would always report him as a
trespasser. After a few reports, he stopped coming around. Don't know if he
was arrested or just got bored.
Then, there are the tails of the really good fans. There was a fellow in
Grayslake, IL named Kenny Caflish. Kenny used to keep his scanner on
constantly it seemed. On numerous occasions if a Wisconsin Central train got
stopped by the Antioch detector or had some equipment difficulty, Kenny was
there to lend a helping hand such as a ride for the Conductor. Many the
Conductors appreciated Kenny's efforts and assistance. As a token of their
appreciation for his efforts, the WC sent him a hat, T-shirt and timetable.
Some time later, he got a cab ride. He rode with us from Schiller Park, IL
to Vernon, WI where he swapped trains and headed back towards Chicago. A
photograph he took of Conductor Dave Soesbe and myself on the front of the
6655 sits proudly in my office to this day.
There have been others that have lent a helping hand over the years. Again,
the WC and other railroads have thanked them by sending them goodies in
appreciation of their assistance. I would hope that CN is so generous after
they take over there come October. I know our Division Superintendent Jerry
Peck is a good and reasonable man and would likely want to offer thanks to
those that assisted us.
One time while at the WC, both my train and the train ahead of us got caught
behind a broken rail. We weren't going anywhere for quite awhile as we
waited on this Saturday evening for them to round up a track gang to come
out and fix the break.
We were bantering back and forth on the radio about the fact that we always
manage to get caught with this kind of problem in the middle of nowhere thus
not allowing us to be able to get off the engines and maybe go get a cup. At
the time we were about a mile or so west of Sussex, WI.
About half an hour later, a car pulls up to the crossing at which we were
stopped. We observed a fellow park, get out and start heading towards the
train. Conductor Dave Soesbe and I stepped and met up with him. He told us
his name (which I cannot remember) and that he was a Fireman in Sussex and
and also a railfan. He heard of our plight on his scanner and had come to
offer us a ride to Hardee's in town to get the cherished cup of coffee.
Amazing! Those Firefighters really are a great bunch. We thanked him and
told him that we were only joking and just venting a little frustration at
having a good trip rapidly deteriorate.
I asked if he would like a tour of the cab as a token of our appreciation.
He eagerly accepted but asked if maybe he could get his wife and kids to
come up as well. We graciously agreed. He ran off to get them and returned
shortly. We brought them all up into the cab, let the kids ring the bell and
blow the whistle and showed them all around. I don't know who enjoyed it
more, Dave and I or this guy, his wife and kids.
After that evening, whenever we passed through Sussex, I would give an extra
shot of whistle to say hello. I always looked for him and the kids along the
right of way, made sure we gave them a big wave and even said hey to him on
the radio hoping that he heard us on his scanner.
I have been witness and party to the acts of railfans kids. On more than one
occasion, the fan was photographing my train as we passed and the kid or
kids started throwing rocks at us. Some have actually run up close to the
train as it passed, with the parent saying and doing nothing, just letting
them have their fun. Now if a banding or chain was dragging from car and
caught the kid and injured or killed them, this fan would quickly be
screaming bloody murder and be looking to sue the railroad into the next
century.
In a story recounted to me by a now retired Conrail Block Operator, he told
of an event that occurred to an acquaintance on another railroad. It seems
that a railfan asked permission to come into a tower that property. The
Operator on duty saw no problem and let this guy in. He spent much of the
day there being given the grand tour of the place and even received a few
goodies as a parting gift. On his way out he slipped and fell on the stairs.
While not falling down the stairs, he did fall and it could have easily
become very serious, very quickly. His injuries appeared to minor to
non-existent. In fact, he even told the Operator he was okay. Apparently, in
the period after he departed, he developed some sort of malady that required
the services of a lawyer. He filed suit against the railroad for injuries
sustained while on their property. The Operator involved was given
discipline for allowing the guy to come into the tower and the railroad paid
out some cash to the guy. They also enacted a very strict no trespassing and
no railfan policy with no exceptions or latitude for a particular situation.
Over the years, I too have assisted in helping a train crew. Being that I
have pretty much always lived near railroads, I see trains constantly even
while I am away from work. On several occasions, I have given a crewmember a
ride back to the head end. I even helped a guy change an air hose one night
when he was having trouble. I got a hold of a Train Dispatcher one evening
when on my way home when I witnessed wheels sliding on a car as the train
passed. I made it clear to them that I was a railroader and which railroad I
worked for so they didn't think I was some nut with nothing better to do
than crank call the railroad. I later learned the crew on the train was
notified, the train stopped and the suspect car inspected and indeed set
out.
Now I should point out, if you happen to observe a passing train with a
dangerous defect, do not attempt to stop the train yourself, contact the
railroad. Try to get as much information as you possibly can. Try to get a
car number of the suspected car and the car type, a possible location in the
train and if you know, the type of defect. Calling in and saying, "A yellow
box car was making a strange noise" does very little. If you do not have a
telephone number, fear not. Just about every crossing has a number posted
somewhere at the site itself, usually on one or more of the warning devices.
It is normally a toll free number. Be calm and explain exactly where you
are. It may help if you take down the number of the crossing located closest
to the train, or wherever you are located. Try to give them all the
information including the direction of the train and an engine number if
possible. The person on the other end of the phone is usually not the Train
Dispatcher and likely not well versed in your location or even the name of
the line in question. They are usually somebody at the "Help Desk" at some
far away location like Fort Worth, Jacksonville, Fort Wayne or Dearborn. If
you know the name of the station closest to the train, that could be a
significant help.
Not everything you see will be a defect. With a brake application set,
there may very well be some sparking coming from some of the wheels. This is
normal. Sometimes you may hear strange sounds. Again, it may be normal
depending upon the circumstances. If you are going to call something in, be
certain it is a defect. Wheels sliding, fire coming from under a car, lading
seriously shifted, something like a chain dragging are indeed serious
defects.
Even reporting a malfunctioning automatic crossing warning device is
important. Again, the crossing ID number and a phone number to call is
posted at each and every crossing. That is, unless some non-thinker stole it
as a souvenir. Be sure to be specific as to the malfunction. If the warning
devices continue to function long after the train has departed, this is
indeed a defect. If they continue to function for ten seconds after the
train clears and then shut off, this is not a defect. If a gate is broken
off or damaged, this is a defect.
Now having been shot at a few times over the years, sometimes I get a little
nervous when I see somebody off in the distance pointing something at me.
Especially if they are not out in the open and in clear view but behind a
tree or partially obstructed by some brush. I see something pointed towards
me I may very well quickly close the windows and duck. They may be using a
long lens of some type, but from my angle and vantage point, I cannot
positively ascertain that fact. Being that one of the locations I was shot
at was a rather well to do area, the location means nothing. We do not have
this fabulous view with close ups from a bunch of different angles like in
the movies.
With all of the events of 9/11/01 still very fresh upon our minds, railfans
are very likely to see little, if any, toleration for trespassing on
railroad property. If the railroad or local police tell you to get lost,
they mean just that. Quietly and politely leave the property. Quite
honestly, you really shouldn't be there anyway. Some railroaders are likely
to turn you in as being suspicious. We really don't know who may be who
right now. And we don't know when or where some extremist may decide to make
another strike against this country. It is most certainly, a very touchy
situation out there. My advice would be this; unless you have specific
written permission to be there, stay off railroad property.
Finally, I am going to get a little political here. It is my column and I
can do what I want, so bear with me. While many of you readers of this
column are Americans, some are not. Those that are not, please bear with me.
This is very important and I feel needs to be said.
A horrible and despicable act of aggression was perpetrated upon our great
land September 11th. We lost a tremendous amount of innocent people
including the brave Firefighters and Police officers responding to help.
Many others survived but sustained serious injuries. All involved will
certainly carry mental scars forever. Please offer your prayers and support
during this difficult time.
A great deal of financial support will be needed. There are numerous
charities accepting contributions and much of the media and other companies
are also starting fund drives to lend assistance. Please help support these
people in any way that you can afford. I sent out the name and address of
one fund last week. I can vouch for Sgt. Eagan, as I have known him for many
years. His fund is on the up and up. Please be certain that the organization
you contribute to is legitimate. Unfortunately, some unscrupulous ones have
already surfaced. And being that some terrorist groups have been involved in
credit card scams in the past, it is very likely that they could be behind
one of more of these new scams. Only donate to reputable organizations. By
no means give out your credit card number to anybody or any organization
that you do not know.
If you can, donate blood in the upcoming weeks. I did it for the first time
last week. It is neither painful nor difficult. Having seen this first hand,
I will make this a regular duty in my life. While the blood banks are full
now, they will become short again in just a few weeks if the flow of donors
drops off dramatically.
A lot of the liberties we took for granted for so long may be questioned
and challenged. Life as we know it has been changed forever. Please support
our President. Display your flag. Be proud to be an American.
Thank you and God bless America.
And so it goes.
Tuch
Waving the Stars and Stripes in Indiana
Good story, and thanks for telling it. I get some of what you get in the medical profession from some who try to wheedle me out of something that they do not need or try to manipulate me into doing something that could land me in hot water if I did not have my wits aboutme, but thankfully they are not numerous. I will always like the rails, but I will not make life for those who work there difficult by my actions, since they already have enough problems to deal with.
Great story Mike! I am only a railfan but I have a couple of close freinds who are or were signal maintainers on Conrail and Metro-North. I have always had the utmost respect for the railroads I photograph. Nothing pisses me off more than a railfan doing something stupid which causes the railroad police to be called and causing an end to photographing that day. It has happened twice to me along Metro-North.
On another note, I am from NY City and have a family member missing in the WTC. Here is something I thought of while reading Mikes letter. Why not take the money for film and developing that some of us would spend railfanning this weekend, and donate it to help out the missing and victims of the attacks? Since it is probably not a good idea to be out now anyway why not do some good for our ccountry and fellow New Yorkers
Steve
Just remember that I only cross post these. These are not my stories to tell.
Can we expect to see any Slants at Continental avenue anytime soon?
Also, when was the last time the E used the slants? I have ssen many pictures of the E in the Rockaways using these cars.
BTW: How long ago did the E stop operating to Far Rockaway?
The last time Slants operated on the Queens Boulevard line was sometime around 1977. At that point, all Slant R40 equipment was transferred to the "A" as the R46s took hold and the last of the R-6/7
equipment was either scrapped or transferred to Eastern Division.
I remember the "CC" replacing the "E" to Rockaway Park (not Far Rockaway) sometime around 1976, same time the "N" replaced the "EE" in Queens, please correct me if I am wrong.
You missed seeing the Slants in mock "V" service on September 8, they were running to Continental Avenue then. As for regular service, don't know.
wayne
The E stop going to Far Rockaway in 1973 with a whole mess of service changes[it was actually late december '72 and took effect in early 73]. QJ-J,KK-K,A-local in Brooklyn to express rush hours,E express in Brooklyn to Lefferts,Far Rock or Rock park rush hours,to E Eucuid av or Rock Park rush hours only. The R40 ran on the Queens Blvd lines[E,F,GG,EE]from late 1967-early68 to 1977 about 10 years mostly on the E and F.Their last runs were on the GG as they were being replaced by the R44 and R46's.
Does anyone know who assigns the subway cars to there respective yards at the TA and why they move around from yard to yard? I remember years ago watching the "R40 slants" coming out the Pitkin Yard from my terrace...
It's done by the people of 'Operations-Planning' with input from the senior managers from the Division of Car Equipment.
Thanks, Train Dude...
How is the type of car decided. I know 75 foot cars are unable to cover some lines, but among the shorter cars what are the criteria used to determine if it is a slant, or R32 or R38 or R40M, etc.
For the lines that can take 765 foot cars I have seen shorter cars there too (such as on the A). How is it decided that a line will use the 75foot cars (if it can handle them.)
The 60-foot cars are at the extremes as far as capacity/usage/location goes. The cars have to be on the Eastern Division because of its tight curves, and the R-40/42s and the R-38s on the C are also placed on those lines in part because they are considered slightly less reliable than their 75-foot counterparts and those routes are among the (comparitvely) lightest used ones on the system.
But as far as the R-32s go, they still provide service on some of the most heavily-used lines. The R-32s run on the E along Queens Blvd., for example, because of its crush load and the fact that a 600-foot R-32 train has eight more doors than a 600-foor R-46, meaning the cars can load and unload faster.
Much has to do with negotiations between operations planning and Car Equipment. In the months leading up to the bridge flip, there was talk of moving R-42s to the D & B lines and/or spritting the fleet, leaving R-68s on the D but running 8-car R-32s on the B. While Operations Planning favored these plans, the Div. of Car Equipment & especially Concourse Shop did not. Ops. Planning stated that if the 10 B trains were 8-car R-32s, they'd save 20 cars or 2 trains. This made sense from that standpoint. However, there were other factors to consider. The R-32 has an entirely different propulsion system and so Concourse Shop would have to stock an entire second class of parts.Also, Concourse Shop personnel would not be familiar with R-32 equipment and the learning curve can be costly in terms of quality. The most persuasive argument was that Concourse Shop personnel had put much effort into getting the R-68s to perform as they now do and they did not want to give them up.
The same can be said for most maintenance shops. They get comfortable with one or two classes of cars and they try to hold on to them. In the B division, it's very easy to make minor adjustments because 3 shops have R-32s and two have R-42/R-40Ms. By adjusting the distribution of both of those fleets, most minor service changes can be accounted for.
I'll bet the crews at 207th and Pitkin Yards knew the R-10s inside and out when they ran on the A.
That was when the Slants ruled the "A" line. They eventually made their way over to the "B" and "L" lines and eventually the "Q" and "N" lines.
wayne
Who ever that was. The person sure did a great job on giving some routes a different varieties of cars
I'd still like to know who made the decision to put the R-10s on the A when they began arriving. That was one of the best moves ever in terms of car assignments.
Watched last night "The Taking of Pelham 1,2,3" on VHS...does anyone know where they filmed most of those scenes in the movie?
I believe it was in the court st station which is now the transit museum
Plus the tunnels leading to Court St.
23rd St. on the Lex is the real McCoy. So are Union Square, Astor Place, Spring St., and Canal St.
Hi,
I was wondering if anyone knows where I can purchase videos on the history of the subways or nyc in general.
I remember watching something about the subways on the history channel but alas i forgot to tape it.
Thanks for any help
Allen
There was an A&E tape called "Subway" that the Transit Museum probably sells. Also a 1/2 hour tape on the building of the IRT called "River of Steel" that is probably available from PBS' web site.
--Mark
It seems with this disaster, 2 or 3 station might have collapsed making the trip to the finicial district very difficult. Yes the weight was very hard to hold up even for a station. But will this disater change the way New York City Subways Tunnels are built. (Its a stupid question) To make the tunnels very strong, the stations stronger? To be able to hold up better under those circumstances? The Second Avenue Line when built might be a very different subway line since, its tunneling might be very, very strong. Maybe Earthquake resistant tunnels (I think that is what its known as)
So will tunneling under New York have major changes in the future?
Paralysis by analysis will set in. they'll haggle about how it should be done to a point where it never, ever gets done. Hopefully i'll be proven wrong though.
This is not a stupid question. Risk assessment is part of the design process, and considering the extremes is part of that assessment. Just as the WTC was designed to "withstand the impact of a 707," subway tunnels are built to withstand a certain amount of force above and beyond the norm. Obviously, what happened last tuesday resulted in extraordinary forces both to the WTC and everything around it. However, overdesigning anything, whether a building, bridge, or tunnel, makes it much more expensive, so it is not a viable solution to design everything to make it able to withstand a direct hit by a nuclear bomb.
The forces of last week's collapse were beyond what the tunnels could withstand. Although I don't know what specifically will be done, I'm sure that during the design of any new tunnel construction, analysis of the collapse will provide invaluable information about the strength of subway tunnels.
I agree. We learn from experience and so designs change. I think it was an excellent question to pose.
Of note: I have read that the elevated bridges in NY (for example, the Jerome Av elevated in the Bronx) were built to hold up 11 times their own weight (length of bridge section the size of a subway train). With the passing years, their structural weight-bearing capacity is down to seven times that weight.
In case my memory is imperfect, would somebody let me know if that's right? Stephen Baumann? Train Dude? Philip?
(I have read that the elevated bridges in NY (for example, the Jerome Av elevated in the Bronx) were built to hold up 11 times their own weight (length of bridge section the size of a subway train). With the passing years, their structural weight-bearing capacity is down to seven times that weight.)
Over time, oxidation and lack of paint protection have removed small amounts of metal from every metal structure the City and State own -- the bridges, the posts that hold up elevateds and subway roofs, etc. In one station, I once say a half inch of rusted metal ready to fall off.
To my knowledge, no one is adding metal TO these structures.
Recently as I was looking through the BSRA Library, I found a document created to record the history of the Washington St. Elevated. The El was a Warren Truss (lattice girder) structure as opposed to the plate girder structures common today in NYC, and was built in 1901. Over the 86 or so years it was in service it had lost 25% of its original steel in places due to rust (lack of maintenance). The report stated that despite the loss of strength from the rust, the structure still exceeded its original design strength by 300%. The engineers of that day figured out what they wanted and then multiplied by 4 for a safety factor. The el was closed and torn down more for political reasons than for either transportation or safety reasons.
I am sure that the various tunnels and other structures around the WTC were not designed to withstand debris falling almost a quarter mile on top of them, and I don't think that their replacements would meet such criteria either. The fact of the matter is that the TA and PATH were able to get their personnel and passengers out of there long before large amounts of heavy debris started coming down. At that point, the important issue, life, had been taken care of. In the end the subway fared pretty well despite the fact that seven lines passed so close to the WTC. To increase the strength of subway tunnels to withstand debris falling from above 50 stories up might cost far more than the TA could afford, especially since new subway construction in that part of the city, which has the highest density of such skyscrapers, is very unlikely (there are already five lines within the space of four blocks).
Over time, oxidation and lack of paint protection have removed small amounts of metal from every metal structure the City and State own -- the bridges, the posts that hold up elevateds and subway roofs, etc. In one station, I once say a half inch of rusted metal ready to fall off.
I don't think it is that extreme. I think a one half inch thick layer of rusted steel is an exageration. They usually measure wear with micrometers.
To my knowledge, no one is adding metal TO these structures.
You cannot add structural support without major rebuilding. However, existing deterioration can be stopped. It is possible to "galvanize" steel structures on site without disassembly. The process has been around for about 70 years. There's a railroad bridge in Philadelphia that was protected back in the 1930's. It hasn't had any maintenance since and has not had any measurable oxidation.
The problem for utilizing this process is economic. No, it is cost effective with a 20 year payout. Here are the problems. The paint companies and the unions are against it. They've been sufficiently powerful to prevent such treatment for highway construction. The second economic problem is that the companies that supply the process and its associated machinery can't make any profit from the added business. It's the razor industry. The process and its machinery (razors) are given away for the consumables (razor blades). In this case the consumables have no patent protection. The zinc and aluminum mining companies would undercut the machinery companies, if they felt that there were sufficient profit to make it worth their time. Three faint cheers for free enterprise.
1.What you said is not a stupid question.
2.Tunnels are quite strong today.Think about it.The A,C,E,2 and 3 tunnels run under 2WTC & 4WTC,yet those tunnels only suffered minor damage.
The 1 on the other hand Runs behind 1WTC,2WTC and 4 WTC and that whole tunnel collapsed.If you compare those 3 tunnels the deeper the tunnel,the stronger it is.Exept for the A,C & E.Those tunnels got lucky.
If anything changes, I think you may see more true tunnels (i.e. bored structures) and fewer cut/cover type construction. The tunnels allow deeper construction, avoid utilities and the associated support/relocation needed when digging around them, and by their nature are stronger structures. The Washington Metro is nearly exclusively tunnel in its underground sections, but I think this had more to do with avoiding surface disruption than defense. London is an interesting example of an underground system, mostly tunnels, which avoided major damage during war (and which in fact served as bomb shelters for people).
Tunnelling is more expensive than cut/cover and stations get more complicated but the current environment (i.e. pre-9/11 catastrophe) probably makes tunnelling more attractive from many standpoints. I believe the 2nd Ave line may be intended to be a candidate for tunnelling and may be designed as such in many segments.
Otherwise, not much will probably change. Structures such as bridges and els that were built in the early parts of the 20th century were usually greatly overdesigned since the science was not as exact and understood as it is today. The Brooklyn Bridge was built for roughly 9 times its design load condition (also known as a factor of safety of 9). Similarly, a portion of the Frankford El was relocated into the I-95 median here in Phila in 1976-77. The old el structure, which was alleged to be structurally deficient (and which had slow orders issued for its entire length for some time for this reason), was made available for load testing just to see how bad it really was. The structure, at that time roughly 55 years old and in poor physical condition (rusting, missing metal, in need of paint, etc), was tested to 6 times its design load before any failure was noticed, and this became the basis of the major rehab effort begun in the early 80's (rather than a feared complete replacement of the entire Frankford El).
You are correct about 2nd Av. To reduce costs, it will utilize existing tunnel sections completed in the '60's and '70's.
http://www.mta.nyc.ny.us/nyct/maps/submap_system.pdf
thats the link, I wonder if these maps might be put on subway trains for some time
Unlikely as service is still evolving. Maybe when the BMT is fixed and they know what they want to do with the E and C.
I just wanted to express my appreciation for the dedication of all the people who run the subways, from the folks in the trenches to the folks in the offices, forhelping keep New York functioning during this time of crisis.
Thank you, Train Dude and Zman179 and everyone else who posts here and works in the system, and your colleagues. Your work is much appreciated.
Yes - let me add my kudos. My colleagues at NYC Transit and PATH have performed miraculously in this time of crisis, restoring service as best as possible. Every person, from top management brass to station and train service personnel, has been a wonder worker. When creative thinking was needed, such as the imaginative reroutings that have been devised, everyone came through "in the clutch." Ladies and gentlemen of NYC Transit and PATH, you're all great!
Speaking of reroutings, those of use old enough to remember will recognize the Q reroute to Queens as the original BMT Brighton Local route through the 60th Street tunnel connector in 1955. And the J extension to cover the R along 4th Avenue Brooklyn is actually the old but short-lived RJ route that was established as part of the Chrystie Street reroutes in 1967.
The same from me,Guys. You guys came through for us in our time of need. Thanks a million,andI realy mean that from the bottom of my heart[you hear me Train Dude,ZMan wannabe1 and all you others?]
Thanks for the thanks, but were only doing our jobs.
As much as it hurts me to say this, the people down at Jay St should also be commended for their duties during this unfortunate time.
Never thought I would say that. I think I need a drink.
The MTA and its employees do get bashed often, both here and in the mainstream press. But there's not question they've done an excellent job keeping the system running as well as it has considering the circumstances, and by the end of October it's possible only the 1/9 south of Chambers will be out of service among all the lines that serve the WTC area.
Iwas able to verify today that two more of the very kind PA people I know from the Capital Projects and AirTrain/Airport Access programs at the WTC are safe and unharmed.
I am thankful for that.
What does PA stand for?
This explains why the Newark Airport Rail Station will still open on Sept. 30. I thought it was going to be delayed, but it's a good thing they're still in business.
: )
Railfan Pete.
PA = Port Authority
Today's New York Times has an interesting article on engineers exploring the damage under the site of the World Trade Center, particularly as it relates to the PATH, IRT, and BMT tunnels. Online, please see: http://www.nytimes.com/2001/09/18/science/18UNDE.html. To summarize:
1. The PATH tunnel is flooded, with water coming into the Exchange Place station, which is 20 feet below the WTC station.
2. The IRT station and tunnel is severely damaged, and will be sealed at both ends, north and south of Cortlandt station.
3. The BMT tunnel is relatively unscathed, and train service is expected to resume "soon", though not stopping at Cortlandt station.
I read this article.
There's a certain engineer who worries that the only thing holding the walls of the basement are the debris of the World Trade Center.
Considering the famous saying of: you only remember 30% of what you read, here goes:
1) Seven levels of shopping centers and at the very bottom, the PATH's World Trade Center building.
2) If the debris is cleared up in the basement, the flooded water and mud inside will develop an erosion that will travel through the subway tunnels, rushing water into Midtown Manhattan, and water through into NEW JERSEY by the Hudson Tubes,
"AND THAT IS NOT GOING TO HAPPEN," he says.
3) He informs cleanup crew not to clear the debris in the basement, until the experts know what they are going to do with this situation.
4) Parts of an "ancient" ship were found in Manhattan in the digging of the IRT Subway line in 1916. They hope to find the rest of the pieces but they were not able to.
5) What does excavation mean? Excavation of the World Trade Center before it was built took years. They dug a 70-foot hole into the ground for the foundations of the WTC.
Below around this level, is where the entire science of NYC lies. A certain type of stone or rock is found here.
6) A very helpful PHOTO of the twin towers rising in the mid-1970s. The caption notes this.
4) More about superstructures and adjacent buildings... . That's basically what I can remember from reading the article once.
: )
Railfan Pete.
Thanks for posting that. Yes, indeed, this recovery is going to involve some creative engineering.
There is a pictoral here
Are those buildings the black ones which were designed like a boomerang, and stood around 50-75 feet high?
(The PATH and Subway, also the shopping malls were accessible through the entrance and exit of this building. )
There were several black buildings right next to the World Trade Center area.
: |
Railfan Pete.
The article said PATH was doing to "cork" the tunnels at X-change place to prevent the whole system from flooding. Woudln't the smarter thing to do be to pump out the tunnels (all that water CAN'T be good) and then cork it near the WTC side of the tunnels? If they wait to pump it will just be more work.
Woudln't the smarter thing to do be to pump out the tunnels (all that water CAN'T be good) and then cork it near the WTC side of the tunnels? If they wait to pump it will just be more work.
Suppose there is a break in the WTC retaining walls and the Hudson River flows in.
I would think with the landfill laid down on the other side of West Street for the World Financial Center and Battery Park City, any breach in the WTC walls would have to come slowly enough for action to be taken, since the river water will have to subduct the WTC landfill area before it can breach the interior walls. You'd probably get a slwly rising mud bulge in the lower wall before you'd ever see a massive Hudson River water entry.
Does anyone know how the old PATH/H&M "HT" station doing ?
I was studying the new service patterns and the track maps last night and I got this Idea.Instead of temporarily discontinuing R service, couldnt the trains in the City hall lower level be moved for a layup for terminating trains until further notice.I give the MTA to get things back in order by Febuary 2002 (exept for the 1 thats a lost cause right there,maybe 2003 for that).
lower level isn't set up for passenger use, and they time it'd take to do it would be a waste of resources as the n/r line should at least be available for through service in a few weeks
http://home.earthlink.net/~hankinhsd/thankyou.htm
That is a cool web site.
Very toching! GOD BLESS THE USA! AND THE PEOPLE AROUND THE WORLD WHO KNOW AMERICA AT ONE TIME OR SO ALWAYS HELPED THEM.
If that's not enough to pull a tear out of you, something is dreadfully wrong....
It's so very touching to see how our neighbors around the world grieve with us.
My subject line is only a slight bending of the truth. The Times hasn't supported suspending the term limits, but their columnist, Clyde Haberman, was on Leonard's show on WNYC and confessed that he was absolutely knocked out by Giuliani's performance--I believe the word he used was "magnificent."
Now he said that he had thought of writing a column supporting suspending the term limits law so G could run again this year. However he thought about and thought about it and decided that New Yorkers had decided twice to have term limits, so he didn't write the column.
Should he have written it?
I voted against the term limits referenda and against Guiliani. I might vote against him again, depending on the opponent. I would definitely vote to repeal term limits.
Rudolph may be doing the right thing now, but they couldn't pay me to vote for him. I'm glad he's going and now the idea of returning to NYC to live is looking even better. But, then again maybe he should stay to keep him from seeking a higher office. I think I actually prefer Dubya to Rudy as President. Rudolph is always pleasant - as long as you don't disagree with him. What an ego!
Wayne
Giuliani is good as some things, not so good at others. Disaster preparedness and response is one of the things he's good at.
Both Giuliani and the City will be better off if he goes out on top. Just think back to you fond memories of Koch and Cuomo's third terms if you doubt me. Term limits are the right move.
Rudy's chances for a third term -- not consecuitvely -- will probably improve if he leaves office on a high note. His efforts over the past week have given all the current mayoral candidates a bigger target to shoot for to prove they can be as successful and a smaller target to shoot at, since Giuliani's flaws have faded towards insignificance given the current cirumstances. Better a mayor that can lead a city in crisis and hates elephant dung art than the other way around, and another run in 2005 is more likely to succeed now, especially if whoever is elected allows Rudy's major successes in crime rate declines to deteriorate.
Does the term limits law allow him to run after a 4-year hiatus?
Does the term limits law allow him to run after a 4-year hiatus?
I believe so.
In any event, it's been noted here and elsewhere that Giuliani thrives when confronted with a crisis. By the time his term ends on New Year's Day, the WTC attack will have passed beyond the crisis stage. He'll probably be just as glad to leave.
On the term limits the answer is yes -- there's no prohibition to Rudy running again in 2005, and while it would be easier for him to get re-elected now, unless his replacement royally screws up the next four years, as has been mentioned, third consecutive terms in the New York mayorality - - and that goes back to Koch, Wagner and even LaGuardia -- tend to be either non-eventful or setbacks to their images.
Giuliani would probably face the same thing assuming normalcy returns to New York, but if he were put back into office in 2005 it would be because the city's chronic problems have returned and Rudy would be given much more leeway by the voters on his known quirks and weaknesses when he got back into City Hall.
Was he the one that had the "bunker" built at WTC 7? Whoever it was that decided that clearly made a mistake in retrospect - and a very obviously one: bunkers below below ground, not above it.
An underground "bunker" is no good unless you consider what's above it. If the aboveground contains a structure that can collapse into it (WTC concourse) or is vulnerable to flooding (PATH terminal) this is just as bad.
Actually a bunker under Central Park might be the best idea.
it would have to be away from downtown, logically, and not under any big buildings. central park seems like it'd be a good spot, though a backup space in an outer bourough couldn't hurt either.
You would want the bunker to be somewhere close to City Hall and 1 Police Plaza, which is why the WTC site was picked. Putting it in Central Park would eliminate the possiblity of a building collapse on it, but a major disaster in the midtown area might make it hard for anyone to get to it from downtown.
Perhaps putting it under the approach to the Brooklyn Bridge east of Park Row and west of Pearl Street would be a good location.
I never wavered in my support of Giuliani. He surrounded himself with world class crime fighters and broke the back of NYC's crime spree in the early 90s. He got on some peoples' nerves...most of the press for one. I wonder if either Kirtzman or Barrett would like to rewrite their books in which they took a lot of pot shots at him.
And, who has he angered along the way? Sharpton? Great!
Likely, most of his opposition to that Brooklyn Museum art exhibit had to do with his perception that the Catholic Church is under seemingly relentless attack in the art and showbiz world. I share his outrage but we needn't go into that in Subtalk...
Still. I'm glad he's term limited. Most everyone was fed up with Koch by 1989 and we got a nice guy in Dinkins, too nice apparently.
www.forgotten-ny.com
I am wondering why Al Sharpton is not showing his face around ever since this disaster happened.
I mean, I would only think that someone looking to be president would want to show some kind of support.
I hope people FINALLY see what he REALLY is all about.
I am wondering why Al Sharpton is not showing his face around ever since this disaster happened.
Don't look a gift horse in the mouth.
quiet like the rest of us who have sense & doing the right thing !! grow up little child !!!
& what is your point anyway after this horrible disaster ?? i suppose next you will charge him with this as well !!
Certainly in the past Sharpton has said things that have made Caucasians rail in anger, but give the guy a little credit at least. He's made an appearance or two there, led a prayer, and on TV talk shows has shown none of the radicalism that has been attributed to him in the past. Remember this, people of all races, religions, ethnic backgrounds, and even citizenship perished in that catastrophe. Now is the time to try to bind whatever wounds we might have had and come together as a team because the wounds inflicted in the WTC bombings are deeper and more keenly felt.
So until Reverend Al goes off the deep end again and disappoints me, let's try to cut this guy a little slack. Whatever else you might think of him, he is still one of us---AMERICAN!!!!!!!
No no no... He's African/American as is often quoted. He chooses to point out his race so often that I guess that only makes him 1/2 American. It's his choice to always cram it down our throats.
So does that mean an Asian/American or Irish/American are 1/2 Americans too??? My thinking is that race and nationality are not one i the same.
Wayne
I guess it politially incorrect to be too specific for some and not others. It can really get confusing . What are the rules?
Race-race, nationality-nationality, racial-nationality, nationality-race, continnnt-nationality, continnent-continnemnt, neighborhood-racial, county-nationality.
$h!T, I give up!
avid
One suggestion that I've made and a few of my friends and colleagues have taken up on it. Why not put American first, as is American-African, American-Irish, American-Chinese. If we have to insist on political correctness on these matters, which, by the way, I think is nonsense, maybe this is the way to go.
Why do we have to use Hyphonated Americans, if you are a citizen of the USA we are all Americans, Irish, Italian, Chineese, Jewish, Arab, Afro whatever. it just seperates us not brings us to gether
That's even better Bob, but for some reason most people insist on being known with their hyphens. I, for one, would be perfectly willing to just be labled American and let people draw their own conclusions as to what my last name represented.
I don t consider you Italian -American, or me Jewish American just American
?Why do we have to use Hyphonated Americans.?.. the answer is when you are " drving while black " in the good ol' USA...
In many parts of this country if you are a black motorist no matter how much you try to be race neutral & " american "
you are always reminded that you are " black first ".... "hyphonated by racist law enforcement" ....& not american !!
Especially when you drive across country ! some streaches of highway TARGET non white motorists !!! & you know I am right !!
See you all in 2002 summer on the museum train !!
Salaam, this is off topic. Many of us have some very strong feelings about this subject, too. Are you sure you want to start this thread going in this direction. The thought police have now caught you making an off-topic post.
The difference is that Irish/Americans and Asian/Americans aren't telling you every 2 minutes that they are Irish/Americans or Asian/Americans .
He's proud of who he is and I don't see a problem with it. If Sharpton wants to state his race every 2 minutes he has that right, even if it's annoying to some folks - Just like it's also within your rights to decide not to listen to him.
Wayne
JRR4: We know that Al Sharpton has in the past both brought out real anger among Caucasians and pride among many African-Americans. But to use him as stalking horse for what he has or hasn't done in this great moment of crisis for our country does none of us any good. I do not know if Wayne is African-American, and frankly it doesn't matter. What does matter, however, is that we suspend these diatribes and unite as one because the world is watching us. I have always said that no one outside can defeat us; we can only be defeated from within. By harping on the frailties or qualities of Al Sharpton only adds to the confusion and dissension that we don't need. Maybe we can cool this rhetoric for a while at least.
Well said!
Seth
once again he like the rest of us are still in a state of shock & disbleief !!!!!!!& etc.........................................
He is rightfully, quiet like the rest of us who have sense & doing the right thing !! grow up children !!!
& what is the point anyway after this horrible disaster ??.. i suppose next (some of you) will charge him with this as well !!
Salaam, I think you are looking at this in too narrow a context. Whether you like the good reverend or not, he has declared his intent to possibly run for the presidency. As such, he's projected himself as a 'leader' but now that leadership is sought after and needed, he's no where to be seen. One would have to be concerned what would have happened if this act of terror had happened on his watch. In my opinion, neither he nor Jesse Jackson have shown any real leadership. One would have to conclude that neither is ready for the big leagues.....
maybe he changed his mind & besides i do not think he would win in a presidents race .... so lets just let this whole thing go
rebuild and move on to more intellegent & non idiot subtalkers off topics ""venting"" & sop behaving like children !!
anyway i am not happy about not being able to come to nyc this fall to celebrtate my 50th birthday at my birthplace !! rats !!!..
maybe he changed his mind & besides i do not think he would win in a presidents race .... so lets just let this whole thing go
rebuild and move on to more intellegent & non idiot subtalkers off topics ""venting"" & stop behaving like children !!
anyway i am not happy about not being able to come to nyc this fall to celebrtate my 50th birthday at my birthplace !! rats !!!..
My point is that if he is "shocked like the rest of us" and keeping a low profile like some of you are saying, WHY isn't he presenting a more positive role for himself? Like assisting in the effort? Giving blood? I am not even going to mention the other mayoral candidates. So far, the only one I have seen with regularity is Peter Vallone.
When it came to police brutality and leading walks all over the City Hall and the Brooklyn Bridge, Al and others who shall remain nameless were on the tv trying to give out soundbytes.
I guess when you're talking about the NYPD as being one of the saviors and martyrs during this entire terrible time, you can't scream too loudly about police brutality. THAT is my POINT.
If you want to be PRESIDENT or MAYOR or GOVERNOR or even DOGCATCHER, you should make more than one or two appearances at the scene. You can't just disappear and be "shocked". We the common folk look to our political leaders for hope and encouragement and inspiration. They get to see the horrors firsthand and must try to "keep it together" for the same of keeping together the common fabric of society. If you disppear from the public eye during these bad times, what would stop you from acting in the same way if you were given a REAL powerful position.
Look, you can call me racist and blasphemous all you want. You can killfile me and even kick me off the board. It's no skin off my nose.
All I am saying is that when a horrific situation arises, we are able to see who among us are the REAL leaders. And we also get to see who are simply some rabblerouser, hate monger, or trouble maker.
THAT is my TWO CENTS. Oh, and before I go. Let me just add one more thing. My sister and her boyfriend were in those towers. It is by the grace of God that they are safe today. And I pray everyday that our good Lord in His infinite mercy can bring all of those 6000 plus souls to eternal rest. I am one of those people who are feeling a lot of raw anger over the events that have played out before us. I am NOT trying to be a trouble maker. And I certainly do not wish ANYBODY harm. And yes, we are all Americans. But we should also not lose sight of who the real heroes of this tragedy are.
I think your post is full of crap off topic & useless !
Sharpton did conduct a prayer service on Sunday and has kept a generally low profile, like that of the mayoral candidates, which I think is to his credit.
He hasn't been vocal about condeming the attack, but then again he hasn't said anything akin to the outrageous statements others have said, which is basically, "America deserved this, because of (name your complaint here)." Saying nothing is far, far better than saying something like that.
I think a clarification is needed here. Al Sharpton does not want to be president - senator or even mayor. He want's to be a candidate only until he gets his federal matching funds. As soon as the check clears, he throws his support elsewhere and sits home counting his money (which he is not legally required to return).
quiet like the rest of us who have sense & doing the right thing !! grow up little child !!!
& what is your point anyway after this horrible disaster ?? i suppose next you will charge him with this as well !!
I heard that the IRT Cortlandt St. Station (of coarse under the WTC) collapsed when tower two came down. I know that the line is shut down indefinitely, but does anyone know when or if the the line will reopen, and if so, when? I know that the N/R station and line will open shortly, and the E may open soon.
Reports are it may take years for Rector and Cortlandt to reopen, since the tunnel was damaged badly. Until then, the 1 may continue to use the Broadway/7th Ave express and terminate at 14th Street and the 2/3 may become the 7th Avenue/Broadway local until Cortlandt and Rector reopen. This is the same service pattern that is being used now.
The two Rector and two Cortlandt stations might be closed 'for years', but to suggest there will be no trains running thru these segments of the system is just plain wrong.
They will quickly have something for the 1/9 to do its turnback. Ditto for restoration of thru service to Brooklyn between City Hall and the Montague tunnel. South Ferry service might have to wait longer.
It all depends on how long it takes them to pull away the rubble overlying the stations, and then, how long it takes them to repair or rebuild secure, structually sound 'boxes'. I suggest this could be done in weeks if the resources were there to do the job quickly. To say anything else says everyone associated with the job is grossly incompetent and needs to be fired.
Don't be so sure about the restoration of service to the two Rectors and Cortlandts. The IRT Cortlandt Street has been severely damaged--including the invert (roadbed), which has serious saltwater seepage. One or two beams from the WTC penetrated the station ceiling and through the roadbed, going several feet deep, thus causing the leak. Cortlandt Street (IRT) is about to be sealed with cement to prevent NY Bay from entering Chambers, so tell me...how are they going to operate 1/9 service to South Ferry.
Get used to seeing the 1 (no 9) going to New Lots Avenue via the 7th Ave Express, as is now being reported.
Mark
96th St interlocking will be getting some workout...
It's going to be messy, and there will be huge delays. I believe that they'll have to sort out a way to get a Lex train to serve South Ferry, so riders can get to Fulton St to transfer. As if THAT stop doesn't have enough problems.
-Hank
So now the question is- What do we do with South Ferry-- build a new tunnel from Chambers to South Ferry or reopen the 5 shuttle to South Ferry or is the current tunnel repairable (after being sealed at the ends)
I believe the original tunnel was built as a cut and cover. Theoretically, once the debris has been removed, there is no reason the existing tunnel couldn't be ripped out, a new trench cut and recovered before new buildings go up in the area.
I believe the original tunnel was built as a cut and cover. Theoretically, once the debris has been removed, there is no reason the existing tunnel couldn't be ripped out, a new trench cut and recovered before new buildings go up in the area.
I'm not looking for passenger service at IRT Courtlandt or Rector for years to come, but certainly something can be done just to get the WSide IRT back to normal.
As to what that something is, that's for engineers to decide. The idea that nothing will be done 'for years' is defeatist.
The subway stations themselves will probably become part of a new office complex put up at the site, and may open in concert with that. The line to South Ferry itself will be back in service before then.
Underground water shouldn't be that much of a problem at the cave-in site near W. Broadway and Vescey, since the 1/9 is running 2 1/2 levels above the PATH trains at the Cortland Street station just to the south.
The collapse site is outside the WTC complex "box" mentioned in the Times today, but the height of other nearby buildings shows their foundations have to go at least a level deeper, if not more, than the 1/9 tunnel.
I don't understand. Why can't the #1 Train run local and the #2 Train run express, just like they always have done?
- Lyle Goldman
It's because of the switching problem. You can turn an express train at Times Square or 14th St., because the uptown and downtown tracks are side-by-side and it's just a matter of crossing over from the downtown side back to the uptown side. But switching does take time, and if two lines are on the track trains will be delayed either north of TS or 14th while the train in front of it reverses.
Putting the No. 2 on the local track eliminates that problem, and the both it and the 1 can switch to the express track between Franklin and Chambers for the trip to Brooklyn, since there's no No. 3 train to interfere with south of 14th St.
Is there any way it can be set up so that trains on the local track can turn around somewhere south of Chambers Street? Maybe they could build a new switch or something.
- Lyle Goldman
> Is there any way it can be set up so that trains on the local track can turn around
> somewhere south of Chambers Street? Maybe they could build a new switch or something.
I am of course assuming that they will be able to reopen Chambers Street Station soon!
- Lyle Goldman
There's no room. Just south of Chambers the express tracks duck and swing east. Just past that is the WTC site.
And the tracks for the uptown and downtown 1 diverge (or diverged) only about 20 feet north of the end of the Cortlandt Street platform. The uptown train would come out of the station and make a sharp shift right to open up space for the express tracks to emerge from the Park Place curve. Because of that, there's no place to put a switch between the two local tracks before you get to the debris zone near Vescey Street.
J,M,N,R,Z-If the tunnel is damaged or unusable then the N & R MIGHT terminate at Canal street(using the City hall lower level tracks as a layup) while the J makes R stops in Brooklyn(local) the M making N stops in Brooklyn(express) an the Z terminating at Broad street if Z service isn't discontinued.
5-Stoping at South Ferry(If or when the redbirds are retired)for the first time in over 20 years.Also a POSSIBLE extesion to New lots avenue.4 service unchanged.
1,2,3-The 1 making express stops from 242 street to New lots avenue.The 2 making local stops from the Bronx to Flatbush and the 3 making shuttle stops from 148 street to 135 street(or doing to the3 what the MTA did to the H).9 service MIGHT be discontinued.
I like to remind everyone thes are only hypohesis about service changes(the reaon I capitolized a few words)and these thoughts do not reflect from the MTA,Subtalk or anyone else exept for mine.I would also like to point out that this doesn't reflect from any reaserch.God Bless you all.
What's the point of running N,R instead of Q,W?
Arti
increasing the service back to what it was after the bridge flip. I don't know about the R, but the W is providing roughly half the service that the N and W provided to queens. It makes 34th st. herald sq. dangerously busy at times.
It surely can't hurt to get both running to at least canal or city hall in the short term. hopefully both will run back through to brooklyn in a few weeks, even if cortlandt and rector are still closed.
[. I don't know about the R, but the W is providing roughly half the service that the N and W provided to queens. ]
Swap Q and W and run diamond Q to Artoria.
Arti
now see... that'd be logical... and we know we can't have any of that going on... ! (I guess they thought running the W to continental would confuse people unduely, as if running the Q there doesn't? if that ws the factor, they still coulda left the W to astoria and run the diamod Q there as well)
I have a question.When they repair the 1/9 tunnel,is it possible for the 5 to run to South ferry with the 1?
[I have a question.When they repair the 1/9 tunnel,is it possible for the 5 to run to South ferry with the 1? ]
Why didn't they do that before?
Arti
Probably would take too long to unload 1s and 5s at the SF station. They have to allow time for passengers to walk thru to the front half of the train.
There would be switching involved as well for 5 trains which may cause delays. Granted this was done from the time the R units began arriving until 1977, when all Lexington Ave. service to South Ferry was eliminated.
[(I guess they thought running the W to continental would confuse people unduely, as if running the Q there doesn't? if that ws the factor, they still coulda left the W to astoria and run the diamod Q there as well) ]
IMHO that would be as confusing.
Arti
Artoria? So that's where you live...Does that require a double-fare?
:0)
[Artoria? So that's where you live...Does that require a double-fare? ]
Yep, I'm currently trying to get it offically recognized, instead of that gray block on the taxi maps. The double fare is obviously collected by me personally, to fund my campaign.
Arti
Of course.
Running the R to Canal Street and having it turn at City Hall is not a problem since it would still have direct acess to Jamaica Yard. Run the R and W as locals and run both Q's on the express tracks.
The N would be a little harder because it has been based out of Coney Island. Getting trains to the N line from Coney would require them to deadhead over the W line all the way to Astoria. Basing the N out of Jamaica Yard would present the same problem too. For now, the best thing they can do is run the W in place of the N and maybe run the diamond-Q to Astoria on the center express track and also stop at 49th Street in Manhattan. The circle-Q can go back to terminating at 57th Street.
At this time, there's no point in running the N because it would require long deadheading to get subway cars to and from the the N. But they could bring back the R in Queens and Manhattan north of City Hall because it would still have direct access to Jamaica Yard as it did before the horrible act that took place last Tuesday.
R trains can operate from Forest Hills to Canal Street. R trains would discharge all passengers at Canal and proceed to the tracks that lead to the lower level of City Hall station. They can reverse direction there and come back into Canal on the northbound platform and take passengers back to Queens. W trains would also continue to be local until N/R line below Canal is reopened for service. This way, they can have all Q trains express in Manhattan as before. In a sense, it would be a split-R service just like we have split-B and D services now. Passengers headed for Bay Ridge from the R would transfer at Canal for the J.
Just because the N is suspended doesn't mean the R also has to be.
Now YOURS was an entirely logical post, IMO. As long as there're enough cars, it would be a great improvement over the current service patterns.
=Rednoise
(NewQirQ)
There should be, if the E is running mostly with R32s, which I don't know for sure. I seem to be having a string of good luck here with suggestions about how to run the trains during the aftermath of the horrible evil tragedy that occured last Tuesday.
Maybe I ought to work for the TA's Operations or Planning Departments. They deal with the the way trains are routed, right? How can I get a job with them? I graduated from college exactly four months ago and I still don't have a job.
What's the point of overlapping routes between 57th and Canal (Q and R)?
Arti
All Q's, circle and diamond, would run express and terminate at 57th Street, just like before last Tuesday. No overlapping between the Q and R at all.
>I know that the line is shut down indefinitely,
Hey Smarty.... the closing of three stations
doesn't exactly mean "the line is shut down".
1SF9
The 1 and 9 line from Chambers to South Ferry is closed until further notice. I don't think it will be out for a few weeks either. Cortlandt will have to be rebuilt. The structure will have to be tested at Rector and South Ferry. And that, like it or not will be at least 2 YEARS.
Cortlandt and Rector on the R will be closed until all the building in the WTC area are found to be stable and in no danger of collapse. Likewise with the E at WTC-Chambers.
I think it will take until the end of 2001 before some service can come back. But it will continue for a long time.
Re #1 # lines-to-South Ferry"at least 2 years ??.........who said this please ??
may i ask a question who said it would take 2 years to rebuild this ? how about next summer ?? anyway who said 2 years ??
& your answer is ___________________________________________________________!!
2 years sounds generous.... given we're talking the
same MTA whose taken x number of centuries to pluck
the proverbial '2nd Avenue Subway' Rabbit out of the Hat.
8^(
"2 years sounds generous.... given we're talking the
same MTA whose taken x number of centuries to pluck
the proverbial '2nd Avenue Subway' Rabbit out of the Hat."
That was before New York got the equivalent of a blank check to do it.
Make sure you're comparing apples to apples. Your last comparison was invalid.
Else where I heard (from a local cable all-news station) that it will take at least 4-6 years before that section of the line reopens. The tunnel under the WTC on the 1 has collapsed. It has to be cleared out, checked out for damages and then rebuilt.
Next summer? As a member of Saturday Night Live once put it "I don't think so!"
?? is it true concrete has been poured into a section near of the #1-9 wtc station to prevent salt water flooding ???
or was this talk show bonkers ??
What talk show did you hear this on?
KMPC 570am los angeles calif. Michel Jacksons show he read it from some info he got on some wire from nyc ..etc...
I did not beleive it & i questioned it very much !!! ...........
Do you really think the the MTA is going to get away with with its usual naval staring on this one? Are they gonna whine "we lack the engineering expertise and the managerial know-how"?
Some sort of interim turnback arrangment for the 1-9 will be constructed.
Now that term limits have kicked in, the next City Council is gonna be different. The city might even redeem the subways from their bondage to the MTA.
I don't think MTA has ever claimed that it lacks (or can't obtain by contracting out) the engineering expertise, or that it lacks the managerial knowhow, to undertake major new construction projects. Rather, the claim is that it is unable to obtain the money to pay for such projects. With $40 billion allocated by the federal government (of which half is available for domestic needs and the other half for military needs), there ought to be enough money available to reconstruct or replace the section of tunnel in the area of the Rector Street and Cortlandt Street #1/#9 stations.
David
Step one is remove the debris at the WTC site. Step 2 is to get the structural engineers into check and see that the foundation and supports are safe. Step 3, get a general idea of what the Port Authority plans to do with the PATH station and service -- remember, the 1/9 train runs on a bridge over where the escallators from the mall down to PATH were located.
After all that is done, the MTA can begin looking at building at least a temporary tunnel or open-cut route through the WTC site to South Ferry. The first two steps should take between six and eight months to complete, while Step 3 will depend on the Port Authority -- if they have no plans to do anything with the PATH station for 4-5 years, the escallator overpass for the 1/9 can be cemented into place and new tracks built on top of that; if the PA is looking at a 2-3 year timetamble for reopening the site, then the MTA will have to build the tunnel with the idea that PATH will also be back in service well before whatever is planned for the WTC site is built.
Even the City Council won't clear the site anytime soon. There is simply too much for a quick job. And the site is also a crime scene. Every little scrap will have to be looked over for possible evidence. And that's not including finding bodies that haven't been found yet.
Foo. By Thanksgiving, we will will the way it can be done. And if they won't do it by Christmas, well, we look at how they don't want to do it.
Come on already. We got $20 billion doing what should be done right.
Dream on, Man! Dream on!
If it was 1956 at the time the Astor Place station was washed out on the East Side IRT line they would have the South Ferry branch on the IRT running within a few weeks after the debris is cleared. There is no reason that they can't have that station operating again within a few weeks after the debris from the World Trade Center is cleared away.
#3 West End Jeff
The BMT line, anyway.
If anyone had bothered reading deep into the Times today, you would have noticed small, late running article in the "Reporter's Notebook" section. Some reporter got to go along with rescue crews as they went down the emergency exits into the WTC PATH station. Here is what was reported:
1: Waist Deep water in all or part of station.
2: Platform level mostly intact, some debris, standby lights on escalators still flashing.
3: One train still in station, somewhat damaged by debris.
4: Really really dark.
5: Fare control level still intact, room for "hundreds" of people.
6: No body's found, at all, anywhere. No personal belongings like bags, shoes, clothing, shopping, food, etc. Station was COMPLETELY empty.
Good news. It means at some point the station can be used again, if that specific site is desired.
Thats Great news.
That is good news for the passengers and PATH crewpeople. I had heard that the last passenger train out had made it past Grove-Henderson and was well on its way to JSQ. There was a crew train following and all had apparently been evacuated.
I hope they get some footage from down there soon.
wayne
I knew it was deep enough to survive!!
I was afraid I'd never see it again. At least when they reopen again, it will still feel like the WTC I grew up with. I probably would have hated the new station anyway, if they were to build one.
Rebuild! Rebuild!
There was an article in the Rocky Mountain News the other day with a map of the WTC area. It had a "PATH tunnel intact" caption along with subway lines, both operating and suspended.
yeah its ok now. as long as the "bath tubs" do not give way. because if it happens, everything will be under water. including that WTC path station, the mall. remember that the area was built on landfill and land marsh. if water penetrates, its over. hearing about water in the path station could be bad news, but it is too early to tell.
I started at 36 in Brooklyn and took the W. Canal manhattan had a musty/smokley smell. From the Manny B you could still see the smoke. Later in the "day" I went to Boro Hall Complex for an escort- the street scene was clouded by smoek on the horizon to the North. There was a smoke smell in the air.
I had to go to Lawrence in downtown brooklyn to open gates. The street scene was one of closed streets and visible smoke in the air. 370 Jay had city police as well as the usual transit guard. All bags were searched-even employees.
Well Canal always has a musty smell. I was there today and there was tinge of smoke smell, but I've smelled it before there. Alot of stores around Canal burn incense. The wind was blowing from the W today so most of the smoke seemed to be blowing away from Chinatown and over the Wall street area.
OK- a clarification--it was not an incense type of smell but of WTC disaster type of smell.
6331-6335/6526-6530 in service this week
Oh, that reminds me. On Monday, while I was waiting at for a #2 at the East, I saw 6516-6520/6506-6510 pulling in northbound on M track. Is NYCT trying to slip trains out of 207th St Yard while people aren't looking?
That set was in service on Monday. In fact that train took me home to Bklyn from the Bronx Monday night/Tues Morn.
That was quick. Guess it did come back from rehab, and went into service not a minute too soon.
I thought they went into serice a while back. I thought I spotted 6526-30 in 180th Street Yard in July.
They've been in service for a while. It's nice of him to contribute, but this is old news.
-Stef
My dad and I boarded R142A #7483 on Saturday night at Brooklyn Bridge.
We encountered major defects of the train.
(NOTE: These notes are also posted on the posting titled: "Horror relief scene, R38 #4613 & R142A #7483.")
Here goes:
1) Door #R9 remains closed for the duration of the trip. It must've been broken. But #R10 opened, which left half of the entryway open.
2) BRAKES SQUEAK VERY LOUDLY.
3) Conductor really had a way to rush the automated systems. Such an encounter will be: (it's true without the "R142A story")
F: "This is a Bronx bound, 6 train. The next stop is, Astor Place."
M: "Stand clear of the closing doors, ple--" (Doors lock closed)
F: "This is a Bronx bound, 6 train. The next stop is, 33rd St."
M: (Doors close first, then) "Stand clear of the cl--"
F: "This is a Bronx bound, 6 train. The next stop is, Blee-"
M: "Stand clear of the closing doors, please". (Doors lock closed)
I don't like it when this happens. It happened several times on our way to 51 St. - Lex Av.
I guess all new appliances have defects.
: |
Railfan Pete.
What defects? Doors not functioning properly. Normal to happen. Happens on all kinds of equipment. Not a defect. A malfunction maybe. Brakes squeal. Normal to happen. Happens on all kinds of equipment. Not a defect. Worn out brakes maybe. Announcements getting cut off... What problem? The C/R just closed his doors before the announcements finished.
None of these are major defects, a major defect is if the train has no brakes, the doors remain open while moving, and the automated announcements curse at the passengers as they enter or exit.
The door may have been cut out because it was functioning improperly (ie: taking too long to close) or the motor may have simply gone bad (which happens when excessive door holding occurs on a regular basis). Whenever any type of announcement is made, if another sound must go over the PA it simply cuts off the announcement, as in: door chime, manual announcement, automated announcement triggered by conductor. Everything with automated announcements works this way.
The only "defective" PA system I've ever encountered on the R-142 was when the radio got piped through the PA and the C/R couldn't fix it.
Also, the first set of 142As also had an annoying habit of piping the radio through whenever an automated announcement was made (ie: "This is a Bronx bound 6 train" was heard concurrently with "-teen forty two Dyre to Flat come into cont-"). Also, in the beginning, the R-142A announced the transfers to the B,D,F,Q at Bleecker st. Uptown. All of these are more major than the conductor cutting it off early to save time.
As for loud brakes, as long as the train stops within a reasonable distance, and the brakes apply and release on cue, it ain't a major defect.
Picked up the latest version (9/17/01) map at Canal St station. Except that it is not printed in the original sizes paper and it has no color at all.
Hold it right there!.. This is not the kind of a map that we usually get from MTA.
This sucks!.. The MTA website has the colored copy. We only get the black and white.
Yet another new map- not yet in stations. Dated 9/19/2001. Shows the closed lines in dotted lines and stations on open sections 9(ie Park Place 2/3) but with trains not stoppping "grayed" out(or lighter shade of the line's color)
Since the N/R connection could be restored in a month or so depending on the engineers' reports, going to the expense of making a color map would be silly.
Once the system stabilizes and they know the status of the N/R and the E at the WTC complex (the 1/9 being out for a long time is a given), then they can print color maps to reflect the new routes.
In that case, I hope the system stabalized by time be4 the V line being introduced. I really don't want another Black & White copied map(Even with the V line in it).
Speaking of V line. Does know what the current situation with V line is right now? Is it gonna come to work at 11/7. What gonna happen to G? Are they really gonna operate at nite?
9/19 maps now at most booths.
These new maps have the new post-WTC service plans on them? Or these maps were due to come out now anyway but were printed before the towers collapsed?
New maps showing post-collapse service. Someone else posted that they're in black & white.
Right. They are in black and white or more correctly in "Gray Scale" (Gray Scale is printing talk for shades of gray.
The latest version is dated 9/19/2001)
I saw a color version posted inside the map box's sidebar at Pacific Street southbound.
It has come to the attention of the NYC-MTA the there are passengers that are upset about the lack of colored map. In order to prevent this from happening again we has sent a letter to OSAMA BIN LADEN asking to please let us know to months in advance next time he plans to attack New York and what subway lines might be effected. We hope that this makes all commuters happy.
Well said!
I think the MTA is doing an incredible job in light of the magnitude of the problems. To have a map printed and in stations that quickly is quite a coup, even if its not in color. The web site has been very up to date.
I was issued one of those maps the other day but it hard to read some of the print.
Well today I took the LIRR from Sea Cliff to Jamaica. The ticket machine didn't like me, it took my money, then said "money returned" but never returned it, so I lost about $2, but called up the TVM hotline and hopefully they will send me my $2 back. Man those TVM's are old, and lock up often. I pressed that return money button alot but it stayed frozen.
Well the OB train was fairly empty, but we had to change to anelectric MU at Mineola, which was fairly crowded. The ride to Jamaica was quick, where I got off and headed for the E. It looks 3/4 R46's. An E sporting digital signs saying E/8th ave Fulton local E to Euclid ave. The ride into Manhattan was a bit slo around Union tpke and Forest Hills due to track work, but was fast after that. I saw an R68 Q train sitting in Forest Hills, and my plan was to get one at Queens Plaza. Well I saw a Q at 36th street but we had to let off a track worker near the 63rd street connection, and by the time we got into Queens Plaza, just as our train doors open the Q (also an R68) closed down (isn't that annoying when they don't wait for a connection?). I stayed on the E and took it to 7th ave and waited a good 10 minutes for a train to 34th street. I heard over the loudspeaker (this was about 15 minutes after 12) that A and E trains are running on the F line bet w4TH AND Jay. Not suprised as Ground zero is still abit unstable.
Got off at 34th and transferred to anything. I waited about 15 minutes for a train, a packed local Q (also R68). Just as I got on a Q express pulled in and I got off (Slants are still there for now) and took it to Canal. Well Chinatown was busy as usual, but with restricted traffic south of Canal it wasn't as noisy, plus it seems there were less lunchgoers. Everything was open, I even bought a flag (the one I do have is packed for the move weeks ago). Flags generally were around 3-5 dollars, a bit high but they were selling like crazy. I also saw lots of WTC pics selling too, something like 4 for $10, but didn't buy any. There was a memorial around Chatham square.
I didn't see any dust, soot, or smell any smoke. Either they did a damn good job cleaning or the main dust cloud missed Chinatown. I looked at where the towers used to stand. There was just thin smoke coming from that area now. Is that tall rectangular black building 1 Liberty Plaza? Well it looked OK. Also that building with the "Bell" logo on it, is that the new Verizon building?
Going back I took the Grand shuttle to Bway-Laff and waited about 10 minutes for an F, which was fairly crowded the whole way bck to Forest Hills. After a bite at Wendy's I took an unusually empty Q65A bus to Main street. I got on at 3:45pm and was at Main before 4pm. That was fast. Perhaps it was quiet because Forest Hills is a jewish area and I do see alot of jewish people on there usually, who are home observing the holidays. The Q44 going up to Flushing was packed in contrast.
I didn't see any dust other than the usual steel dust in the subways. Also did see a few R32s on the Q local, and a 63rd street shuttle train coming in light on the E/B express at Forest Hills (R32s).
Well maybe I can get to do more railfanning on the new J,M,and Q lines later this week.
I feel alot better now. It looks like NYC is still the vibrant place it has always been. But all the flags, and memorials scattered about the City from Manhattan to Queens will remind us of the horror of September 11th.
I heard from a co-worker of mine (Who saw on the news) and a friend of mine that the Twin Towers WILL be rebuilt. Supposedly the foundation was not that severly damaged (Most of the mall down there survived). The Mayor wants them up and so does The Govenor. They will be built using stronger material (Along with steel), and they will be 15 Stories higher.
When the twin towers were going up how many stories were they supposed to go to? Was it orginally designed for 135 Stories??
I heard from a co-worker of mine (Who saw on the news) and a friend of mine that the Twin Towers WILL be rebuilt. Supposedly the foundation was not that severly damaged (Most of the mall down there survived). The Mayor wants them up and so does The Govenor. They will be built using stronger material (Along with steel), and they will be 15 Stories higher.
As I said to subwaybuff yesterday, the President says we're at war, and in war the first casualty is the truth. About all that can be said with any degree of confidence is that most politicians and business leaders want something rebuilt. It's way too early to know anything further.
In addition, engineers aren't anywhere close to making a full examination of the foundations. That will have to wait until much more of the debris is removed. We do know, based on media reports, that the PATH station is reasonably intact. But extrapolating from that one fact into an assessment of the entire foundation is going a bit too far.
Agreed. ButI like the attitude.
Per the MTA website, tomorrow, the 1 will go back to running local, and will makes all stops to New Lots except nights, when it will run to 14th. The 2 will run local in Mnahahtan and make all stops to Flatbush, and the 3 will run express in Manhattan to 14th St. only.
So what we came up with will be implemented!
Arti
Why make the 2 a local if
the 2 comes more often than a 3?
Not to mention, the 2 is faster.
Shouldn't the focus be on 'zipping' commuters
INTO the city... therefore wouldn't the purpose
of an express be better served with both the
2 AND 3 remaining as express?
Making the 2 a local in Manhattan puts more
trains in the local slot (contrary to express)--
which could be all the more efficient in the
mission to 'zip' commuters in and out...'quickly.
Send the 1 to New Lots if ye must, but please
holy vaca please, DON'T put any more trains on
the local line.. we already have a decent
headway as it is... whereas I hear the 2
needs the help in the frequency/headway dept.
My 3 canadian cents.
Before September 11, actual (not scheduled) headways for local service (i.e., service that actually stops at all local stops, not service signed as local but bypassing local stops) between 42nd and 96th regularly exceeded ten minutes during rush hour.
Ten-minute headways is what most lines see middays. Is it reasonable to ask people traveling to and from the most densely populated neighborhood in the U.S. to wait ten minutes during rush hour? I think not.
Since the 1 and 2 must share trackage between Chambers and Franklin as it is, there is no capacity loss in having them share trackage all the way from 96th, and doing so allows the 3 to run to 14th rather than 42nd. The only question is whether the 2 will better serve passengers as a local or as an express, and I think it's clear that the former is the case, especially as the 1 alone probably sees a bit less service now than it did before last week (to make room for the squeeze into Brooklyn).
Why is it better that 2 run local as opposed to the 3? The 2 has a long local run in the Bronx and Harlem while the 3 only makes the Harlem stops. Better to run the 3 local to New Lots and the 1 to Flatbush. The 2 can terminate at 14th Street. It evens things out.
That does make sense.
The only advantage I see in the current arrangement is that the 2 presumably has more passengers (from the Bronx, specifically) than the 3 who need to go south of 14th Street. Then again, many such 2 riders would prefer to go express as far as they can even if it doesn't save them any time. (I don't know how often the 3 is running these days, but I rode a 2 from Fulton to 79 shortly before rush hour this afternoon and not a single 3 passed us.)
Perhaps the TA's idea is that the 3 is largely dispensable now -- it makes two stops of its own, merges with the 2, and then runs express only to 14. Headways can be increased without leaving many stations with infrequent service. With you plan, the 3 would need its full service to New Lots and the 2 would need its full service to 241.
But, overall, I do think your idea makes sense.
I'm currently living overseas and I just saw the new 9/17/01 map. The map looks really bizzare almost like something out of a dream!! But then again, what happened last week also seems like it was just a dream. Unfortunately, it wasn't.
In any case, I've got several questions and since I won't be in town for a while, maybe someone on this board can answer them
How does this awful tragedy affect the TA's plans for opening the 63 St. connection for full time service?
How badly damaged are the stations that are being bypassed?
How badly damaged are the stations with terminals in Manhattan? i.e. 1,9 from Chambers to South Ferry, the E train terminal?
Why aren't the IRT trains stopping at Chambers and Wall Sts?
Why isn't either the Q or W running via the Montague St. tunnel?
How long does the TA (and the PATH trains as well) expect to take to repair the damage? In other words, when can we expect "normal" service again?
Sorry this was a long post. Being overseas makes me unable to ride the subways for myself.
I think Courtlandt St (1)(9) was caved into, or at least bad enough that it needs some but not too much reconstruction. As far as the 63rd St tunnel project goes...IDK about that...
The Chambers St stations (1)(2)(3)(9) and (A)(C) are in close proximity to the World Trade Center site (about five blocks, about 1000+ ft)...it is stil unsafe to open at this time...at least unsafe to open with the current situation...City Hall (4)(5)(6) is closer, but still safer to open, and City Hall needs to return to work like close to normal.
As for the Qs and Ws not using the Montague tunnels...look what lines usually use them...the (N) and (R), the same lines that stop next to the WTC...bad news. The Montague Tunnels lead to the N/R lines up Church St.
That's about all I know. Someone correct me on some issues...
Cleanairbus
1) IDK
2) Cortlandt Street IRT and adjacent tunnel destroyed
Cortlandt Street BMT sounds like some damage but nothing serious
PATH station destroyed
IND Chambers Street/WTC station minor damage
3) None of the terminal stations are damaged
4) They don't need extra exits for people to go in and out of and possibly disrupt rescue/excavation operations.
5) The Montague Street tunnel is OK - the "J"s and "M"s from the Nassau Street Line have taken it over.
6) Years and years for PATH/Cortlandt IRT; weeks for the others, including Cortlandt BMT. They won't reopen Cortlandt BMT until the area is made safe again.
wayne
>>>>>>>How does this awful tragedy affect the TA's plans for opening the 63 St. connection for full time service?
The 63rd Street plans are currently unaffected.
>>>>>>>>How badly damaged are the stations that are being bypassed?
The only station that has been verifiably destroyed is the Cortlandt Street station on the 1/9. And Rector Street on the 1/9 I hear isn't in very good shape.
The Cortlandt and Rector Street stations on the N/R appeared to have held up very well considering the circumstances, and from what I've heard from TA supervisors is that the line may be up and running in about 4 weeks. Even when service resumes, the two stations will remain closed as they are in the restricted area.
>>>>>>>>>Why aren't the IRT trains stopping at Chambers and Wall Sts?
The Wall Street station on the 4/5 is closed because the exits from the downtown platform are all located on the west side of Broadway, and the entire west side sidewalk has been made off limits by the NYPD as it begins the restricted zone. To alleviate confusion, the whole platform is closed. I cannot answer as to why the Chambers Street stations as well Franklin Street on the 1/9 are closed.
>>>>>>>>>Why isn't either the Q or W running via the Montague St. tunnel?
Because the only way a Broadway BMT train can access the tunnel is via Cortlandt/Rector Streets.
>>>>>>>>>>How long does the TA (and the PATH trains as well) expect to take to repair the damage? In other words, when can we expect "normal" service again?
I've already gone over the N/R situation. The Chambers Street/Park Place stations will most likely remain closed until the cleanup at the WTC is complete. #1/9 service to South Ferry will take a couple years (after the cleanup is finished) at the least to resume service. No one (not even people associated with PATH) have any idea as to when (or if) service will resume to WTC.
Why aren't the IRT trains stopping at Chambers and Wall Sts?
The Wall Street station on the 4/5 is closed because the exits from the downtown platform are all located on the west side of Broadway, and the entire west side sidewalk has been made off limits by the NYPD as it begins the restricted zone. To alleviate confusion, the whole platform is closed. I cannot answer as to why the Chambers Street stations as well Franklin Street on the 1/9 are closed.
As of today, Franklin Street was in the residents-only zone. Both Chambers Street stations were too. In fact, they may be in the escorted-residents-only zone.
I don't know how long that situation will last, although it's reasonable to say that the area around Franklin will become unrestricted sooner than the areas around Chambers.
Update: newsradio88.com reports that Franklin Street station will reopen tomorrow (Wednesday). It would seem likely that the residents-only restriction in the surrounding area will no longer be in effect. At least it's hard to see how trains could stop in a restricted area.
Another report says that searchers went through the WTC shopping concourse. From the description, it sounds as if parts of the concourse are at least semi-intact.
This is confirmed by the MTA website -- it no longer says Franklin is skipped, and the online maps show Franklin as open.
Nobody in the concourse?
No.
:-(
Damn
>>>>>>>How does this awful tragedy affect the TA's plans for opening the 63 St. connection for full time service?
The 63rd Street plans are currently unaffected.
>>>>>>>>How badly damaged are the stations that are being bypassed?
The only station that has been verifiably destroyed is the Cortlandt Street station on the 1/9. And Rector Street on the 1/9 I hear isn't in very good shape.
The Cortlandt and Rector Street stations on the N/R appeared to have held up very well considering the circumstances, and from what I've heard from TA supervisors is that the line may be up and running in about 4 weeks. Even when service resumes, the two stations will remain closed as they are in the restricted area.
>>>>>>>>>Why aren't the IRT trains stopping at Chambers and Wall Sts?
The Wall Street station on the 4/5 is closed because the exits from the downtown platform are all located on the west side of Broadway, and the entire west side sidewalk has been made off limits by the NYPD as it begins the restricted zone. To alleviate confusion, the whole platform is closed. I cannot answer as to why the Chambers Street stations as well Franklin Street on the 1/9 are closed.
>>>>>>>>>Why isn't either the Q or W running via the Montague St. tunnel?
Because the only way a Broadway BMT train can access the tunnel is via Cortlandt/Rector Streets.
>>>>>>>>>>How long does the TA (and the PATH trains as well) expect to take to repair the damage? In other words, when can we expect "normal" service again?
I've already gone over the N/R situation. The Chambers Street/Park Place stations will most likely remain closed until the cleanup at the WTC is complete. #1/9 service to South Ferry will take a couple years (after the cleanup is finished) at the least to resume service. No one (not even people associated with PATH) have any idea as to when (or if) service will resume to WTC.
And Rector Street on the 1/9 I hear isn't in very good shape.
I still wonder about Rector. From what I could see today, from the east side of Broadway, the buildings on and around Rector Street didn't look damaged. And the station is quite a distance from the WTC.
I'll bet that the station's not in as bad shape as feared. Not that it really matters, with Cortlandt Street destroyed and the tunnel collapsed.
Ok now the information is on the TA Website
No.1 Line: 242 Street Local to New Lots Ave
Nights: 242 Street Local to 14 Street
No.2 Line: 241 Street Local to Flatbush Ave
No.3 Line: 148 Street Express to 14 Street
This all start tomorrow.
Oh, SWELL! All the maps are going to change again. I guess someone should give Michael Adler a ring and ask him to change it all again.
wayne
This was suppose to happen Monday but they delayed it.
1 to New Lots!?
Holy Vaca!!
I know and I have to do it 5 days since I have 5 days on the No.1 Line.
Aside from the recent Labor Day G/O...
When was the last time the 1 ran to New Lots?
I recall reading along somewhere that the 1 train
had New Lots Ave. as a terminus shortly before
South Ferry was designated for the 1 line....
What year(s) did the 1 run to New Lots?
This terminal change has irked my interest.
The last time the 1 went to New Lots was in 1996 for a couple of weekends due to a GO similiar to the last one.
Hey Dave Jr.,
If I can find my way down into the (1) city, you got company!
(1) Loyalist
8^)
That sounds good but I have to warn you.I don't work during the day. My Hours are 5PM to 1 AM.
>I don't work during the day. My Hours are 5PM to 1 AM.
I, a Nightowl here!
Yes, But its interesting at night.
Do you like working 3rd shift?
Isn't there a 4th shift of the day too? I know this because my mom works from 11:30p to 8:00a at her site.
Railfan Pete.
Your mom is working the first shift - what we all call Midnights.
Midnight jobs can start between 2100 the previous day to 0359 of the day in question; AM jobs start between 0400 and 1159; and PM jobs start between 1200 and 2059.
I don't mind those hours. At first I didn't like it but after doing it for 2 weeks I'm starting to like them. There are not many people to deal with at night and you see stuff you don't see during the day. Like New R142's on test runs and Redbird on there last trip to 207 Street. I get to see a lot of the Work trains as well. Also get to meet more women at night. Another good side is I don't pick up school kids.
Another good side is I don't pick up school kids.
Possibly the only good reason I've ever heard for working late PMs.
You might get lucky. Since you're working late PM's, you might get away with 1 to New Lots and 1 to 42 Street, or wherever it ends in Manhattan at night. If you have to do 2 to NLTS, then you'll probably get a daily late clear out of it.
The union will have a pick meeting on this tomorrow and unfortunately,because of the emergency, it will be about November before the IRT will see some change on the pick. For now, a section pick for Bway isn't materializing as there will be many senior personel who will fall to the boards on supplements already picked, and there will be crews getting shafted for a while, perhaps Bronx line personel who report to Van Cortlandt Park instead going out to Livonia or New Lots. Other concerns on the pick are the current scheduled terminals on the N, as to whether it will terminate at KHWY or 86 Street. Stillwell Terminal demolition isn't factored into the pick changes coming into play and will be redone. BTW, the B division is still picking.
S/b at 86th St. station on the N line around the 8 car marker, a combo crew room and dispatchers office is being constructed.
According to signs at the Highlawn end of Kings Highway on ther Nancy there is a sign stating they are building temporary crew facillities there and some new rooms have been built. I am there once each week.
They are? Hmmmm, didn't see it, then again I wasn't looking for it.
Nope!
I have 2 trips to New Lots with my last half the Third from the Last train on T/F and second from the last train from New Lots on Monday.
Then again I couldn't believe my eyes.
There are 2 PM Jobs 606 and 607 that Start at New Lots and do 2 1/2 trips and end at 242 Street paying only 9 1/2 Hours. 2 and one half trips against the wall is too much.
Dave check it again. Those jobs are only 1 1/2 trips.
It looked Like two and a half but I'll double check it.
I did another check and 607 Daily has 2 1/2 trips it starts at NL 14:05 and clears at 242 at 23:19. I would hate to be assigned that job.
I know someone who was assigned to that job. That only did not do the full 2 and 1/2 trips due to no T/O. I guess the T/O found out about the job earlier and bailed ship.
I know someone who was assigned to that job. That person did not do the full 2 and 1/2 trips due to no T/O. I guess the T/O found out about the job earlier and bailed ship.
This actually has happened before on the weekend of Sep. 1 and 2.
I also have heard that 4 Redbird cars during these two dates have accomodated the #1 line to help service.
The ride must be very long, since it makes all stops from 242 St. and New Lots.
Also, this makes it competitive with the longest lines of the Subway CURRENTLY. The A, E, F, 2 and the 1 are long lines now.
Railfan Pete.
The longest lines in the system:
A,E,F,J,M,circle Q,1, and 2
I don't think there were any Redbirds on the 1 on September 1-2.
I rode a 2 from 96 to 34 and a 1 from 34 to New Lots and back a few stops. I didn't see a single Redbird (except on the 2, of course).
And what route number would be displayed? Redbirds don't have 1 (or 3) side signs anymore.
There were no redbirds in service on the 1 line during that G.O. We had all R62a's some from Livonia some from Pelham and the rest were ours out of 240 yard.
Dave Jr.,
I think they're better off putting the 3s into the spur at TSQ. At least the train would be out of the way, and leave the express track open. Oh well! What do I know? Does anyone think uptown riders are going to run for that train on the downtown platform? I can see the 3 being empty as it pulls out of 14th Street, but that's my opinion.
-Stef
If they turn the trains at Times SQ for the spur they would have to discharge the train and that could back up the trains on the Express track. Its unavoidable that something has to terminate at 14 Street and two services have to be local from 96 to Chambers.
As for how I think it should be done I'm in agreement with R142#2. I didn't think of it until R 142#2 Posted it.
I was up at the 239th street yard this evening, looking at the trains laying up in the yard.I got in my car and drove southbound on White Plains road, of course under the EL.Coming northbound there was a fancy pick up truck trying to past a couple of cars.The truck raced past the two cars into the southbound lane,he swerved, and ran right into the EL pillar,with such force, his tire went about 6 feet up in the air and landed on an oncoming car.To prove two points, dont cross the double yellow line and The EL pillar always wins!!
To prove two points, dont cross the double
yellow line and The EL pillar always wins!!
He won't have to prove two points, he will have them attached to his license.
>He won't have to prove two points,
>he will have them attached to his license.
.....think he will SMILE for the CAMERA???
He's lucky if he survived!
YEP!
Those double I-beam reinforced EL columns bear a massive amount of weight, and are deeply implanted underground, with a column base at least 3 or 4 times the size of the Column itself. I doubt a garbage truck could make a dent in it.
It's the same as betting a dollar or two on one of those football cards.
Ties lose.
When I worked at Pan Am in the 80's, I would drive under both the Fulton St. el remnant at Franklin and the length of the Atlantic Ave LIRR el. Every, and I mean every, time it rained there'd be a livery car imbedded in a pillar somewhere on either el.
The el USUALLY wins - the last week or so of the Myrtle el operation, a truck took out a pillar down near Navy St. But yeah, I gotta admit it was 1880's el construction not exactly designed for contacts with motor vehicles.
I'm looking to find working drawings to the R15 model, the most obvious source is to try the NYCTA archives. Would they have these drawings? Would I try another source?
I would prefer the original drawings circa 1950 to use them to construct models of these cars.
Instead of asking us, why not ask NYCT?
NYC Transit Museum
130 Livingston Street, 9th Floor
Brooklyn NY 11201
David
I have EXACT specifications and scale drawings of R-15. If you want some E-Mailed to you let me know
I was wondering where I might be able to aquire AutoCAD drawings of the former World Trade Center in either DWG or DXF format. I'm pondering a design for a new WTC, and electronic drawings would save a lot of guesswork about the siz of the site, etc.
The things I'm most interested in:
The dimensions of the entire WTC site
The size and locations of the former twin towers
The locations of PATH and MTA subway lines on and adjacent to the site.
My design idea is still a bit sketchy right now, but I'm thinking of two new towers that would be roughly the same size, shape and height as the originals so that the NYC skyline will regain its familiar profile. I think this would be important in the healing process. However, the new towers would be on a different location on the site, possibly just to the north of the original, and would not be carbon copies of the originals.
The footprints of the original towers and the surrounding area would become a new memorial plaza, with the still-standing remains of the orginal towers retained and stabilized so that future generations will never forget the horror of September 11th, 2001, akin to the USS Arizona being respectfully left in place at the bottom of Pearl Harbor. Inside each footprint would be a massive bank of spotlights aimed straight into the sky, producing an effect similar to this artist's rendering on the cover of the New York Times Magazine but set against the backdrop of the new towers:
The footprints and spotlights would be set within an elliptical reflecting pool, and there would be a City Chapel on the site in honor of the FDNY, NYPD and EMS workers who gave their lives in service of their city.
The Marriott hotel and possibly other office buildings would also be replaced with new structures on the site, as well as the shopping concourse. The new design would be much more pedestrian-friendly than the old WTC, and the PATH and MTA subway stations would be fully integrated into the new design.
In terms of aesthetics, the design would be very forward-looking and fundamentally optimistic. Lots of glass and steel and open spaces, with a strong focus on environmentally-conscious design with an abundance of water, trees and plants. However, supporting the new towers would be massive concrete piers that would be sanded down and polished, lending a sense of elegant permanence. Designing it to look like a bunker would only hand a victory to the mass murderers who did this.
I hope to eventually create some presentation drawings and 3D renderings of my new design. WIll it actually get built? Probably not, but it would at least make a nice entry if they decide to have a design competition for the new WTC. At the very least, it will make a nice portfolio piece.
Thanks in advance for any suggestions or ideas.
-- David
Chicago, IL
If you are going to design a new set of twin towers here's a thought: why not add a connecting tube-walkway between the two buildings so that moving between buildings -- in times of emergency as well as for business reasons -- couild be achieved w/o going to the ground floor.
Let me know what you think of this...
BMTman
Like the suspension bridge from Indian Jones fame? It would have to be Flexible for building movements due to wind.
avid
Avid, that's right, so the tube itself would have to 'give alittle' during storms, etc.
But it is feasible only IF the two buildings are within a certain distance from each other. Obviously, the further apart they are, the less likely for a walkway connection.
BMTman
I think Felipe Pette' was the only one to make the trip. I tried my best with the spelling of his name. Corrections cordial accepted.
avid
I think the Petromas Tower in Indonesia has such a feature.
I really dig your twin towers of light idea. Really neat imagery, the spirit of the city rising to heaven.
An understaded, but running metaphor about the unity of the humanity, other than glass hung precisely from black steel, could be a big hit with people everywhere. Can't think of the appropriate one myself...
Leaving the last floors of one of the towers to appear unfinished, to say: look there's work left for all of us, strikes my fancy right now, but could just look like a big scar on the skyline.
Would it be too weird to incorporate the last pieces of metal shelling we see standing into the new design? Berlin did it with their old Cathedral, but there's a lot more going on there than here.
Would it be too weird to incorporate the last pieces of metal shelling we see standing into the new design?
Not weird at all... That's actually what I had in mind. As you mention, there's already precendent for leaving "ruins" untouched as a memorial to what stood there. The USS Arizona memorial at Pearl Harbor comes to mind. Also, there's a small church I came across in London, not too far from St. Paul's Cathedral, that had obviouslly sustained heavy bombing damage during the Blitz. Only a couple of the exterior walls remain standing, but there's enough that you can tell it used to be a church. The space between the walls, which had been the sanctuary, is now a small public park.
I found it very moving, and that's partly what inspired my idea for the WTC site. There will come a day there won't be anybody left who remembers firsthand the destruction of the WTC. I think preserving that section of the building's shell would serve as a poignant memorial to future generations. Sure, the TV footage will still be around on videotape or some other format, but that pales in comparison to something physical.
By the way, I found some files on the net that hopefully I can use, including a 3D model of the WTC. All I need to do now is download some software that can (hopefully) convert the 3D model into a file format that AutoCAD can make sense of. This website also contains a few useful floorplans and photographs.
Check it out at:
GreatBuildings.com - World Trade Center
-- David
Chicago, IL
On the New York Radio Message Board, someone asked a question about the WTC and its subway lines and stations. Someone else (not me!) replied that information might be found on SubTalk.
Here's the post.
Not surprised. Subtalk has already surpassed 225,000 hits this week (it's only Tuesday night) and it usually does about that in a whole week. So if you notice it's a little slow, you'll know why.
Cheers, Dave!!!
Let's call for Pizza!
(from Monday's USA Today)
The next time your travel agent goofs up, remember what happened to
Seth MacFarlane, creator of Fox's wacky cartoon, Family Guy.
MacFarlane was booked to fly from Boston to Los Angeles on American
Airlines Flight 11. His itinerary said the flight would leave at 8:15
a.m., when in fact the departure time was 7:45. He got to the gate
just as boarding was finished. Trying to persuade gate agents to let
him on "is something I would have pressed them on in the past, but for
some reason I didn't this time - and thank God."
While waiting in a lounge for the next flight, he learned Flight 11
had crashed into the World Trade Center. "I just sort of stared at the
screen and said, 'Oh, my God.'" MacFarlane drove to Los Angeles
instead. "I've thought about it a lot, but it really hasn't sunk in
yet. I saved the itinerary. I figure it's a piece of history. It was
much too close of a shave for me."
Here`s another story: Do you remember the girl from MTV`s "REAL WORLD" New Orleans- her name was Julie- the Mormon girl turned wild child? Well she was booked on the same flight 11. She was going to fly to see her boyfriend. The night before, they had a spat, and she decided not to go out to see him. She skipped the flight entirely. Now she`s lucky to be alive, and thanking her lucky stars that a fight with her boyfriend probably saved her life.
When I hear all these tales about folks who were lucky enough to avoid these doomed flights I have to wonder; what about all those unlucky ones who wound up taking the trip?
Like tourists who said "Okay, do we do Statue of Liberty first or World Trade Center first?" and made the wrong call.
As it goes: "Death is appointed." If God didn't want him to die that very day, He would have done something like this to prevent him from perishing just yet.
He must be thankful the Lord didn't make him meet his end that day.
So basically all those 6000 people who died, were all wicked and god wanted them to die?
Get your head out of Bin Laden's ass.
Hey, I'm not with bin laden and stop swearing like an immature fool. Most of us believe in God and we know that he should provide for us good things.
BUT, what about the other side of the Truth? God mentions in His Book that we all will face death. Those 6000 people who are missing (and died) weren't the worst of sinners for God to let them perish on Earth. They didn't have to be.
Think about it.
BUT it reminds us all that we all will have to face death, whether we are faithfully in spirit or in the worst of sins. Being mindful of the Truth is important.
It is a wake-up call for Christians to keep their devotions and their faith. Some of us have been slacking, or "hit and miss" Christians, as our Pastor calls it.
The fate of anyone's life is only determined by the Omnipotent, Omnipresent, Almighty God.
The point is this.
No matter how good of a person we are with morals or with socials on this temporal earth, we will still face death. Isn't this a reminder to you?
Ok, I'll bite. I know I really shouldn't be arguing theology, but I can't resist this time (if you really want to continue, you can e-mail me).
You make some really good arguments, namely that everyone dies and that people should be aware of it; dying's the risk of living.
But I had one big problem (and I don't know what type of Christian you are, which makes a big difference--are you a Lutheran?): "The fate of anyone's life is only determined by the Omnipotent, Omnipresent, Almighty God."
So, if we do good, it's not because of us? If we do evil, it's not our fault? Then what's the point of being human and even trying to do good, if we can't escape our fates anyhow? Sure, like you said, we all face the same end result of death, but if you believe in god and think your "fate" is where you go after death, then what we do during our lives is immaterial to where we end up. So, what's the point of doing anything during life? It won't make a difference. I think that would be a sad way of living, not worth living--so you've got to make room for free will.
Seth
As for the coming of the R143 making their way to the "L" line & the leftovers will go to the "M" line I need to know the following things: When all 212 R143s come in to increase service on the B division their will be 38 R40 Slant & 170 R42 transfer to Coney Island Yard from East New York Yard if its true they will operate on the "N" line? right Also will their be alot of rare car assignments on "B" division lines? Like a R40M/42 on both Q lcl & exp. Especially is it true that the "B" train will run R40 Slant again & the Q will get their R68/68A back? Just curious
From what I've heard,the N[if and when its runnig again] will get the R42 cars from the L and M lines. So expect to see some car shuffling going on next year.Also,when ever the R160's arrive,their home is going to be East New York yard,Pitkin yard and Jamaica yard,so the R42s on the J,M and Z will all go byebye.R38 on the A =SEEYA! R44,maybe[good chance though]and most if not all R40 -gone. So look out for it. Train Dude?Care to interject here?
The pecking order for scrap for the R160 are
10 R32GE
200 R38
300 R40S
110 R42CI
Joe V. is correct -- at this point. However, it's subject to change, especially since the reason the 10 GE R-32s were on the list was the lack of working air conditioning (due to defective compressor cradles), and that problem has been fixed through installation of new units.
David
I think some could be sent to Kew Gardens Yard(They call it a diffent name but it's in Kew Gardens relly).
"Kew Gardens Yard" is Jamaica Yard.
It's "possible" for the R-143s (or the cars displaced by them) to end up anywhere in the BMT-IND system. Where they WILL end up is for NYCT Operations Planning (in conjunction with NYCT Car Equipment) to determine.
David
Well. Okay then!
It's really too early to tell which cars will be placed where. The only two things that are guaranteed are:
1) The R143's will be on the L line to start and on the J/M when the full order is in.
2) The R40/42's will be transferred out of ENY/Canarsie.
Hey are you actualy tellin me that the J[my baby]will get new cars[the R143]IN SERVICE over there? hallaluya!!!!
Eventually, but the J will get them last.
Is there any reason the Bowling Green - South Ferry Shuttle couldn't be reinstated?
Are S.I. ferry passengers walking to Bowling Green to catch the subway?
1 block will not kill them
Shuttle platform is closed for asbestos abatement. Running a shuttle, or running 4s and 5s to South Ferry, would delay or remove too much Brooklyn service.
S.I. Ferry passengers have a barricaded-off area on the edge of Battery Park where they can walk to/from Bowling Green station without crossing any streets. Battery Park is officially in the restricted area; I guess that's why the barricades are necessary. This walkway is not accessible from State Street but only from the ferry & the subway.
the national guard has set up base in battery park, thus it's off limits. there's also a resturnat down there by the ferry that seems to have been made a base of operations for NYPD - with one van there sunday marked "welcome to fort rowland". (who's "rowland?" the CO?).
I wonder if they're using castle clinton at all?
The Rocky Mountain News mentioned that there was presently no ferry service to Liberty Island or Ellis Island from the Battery. If Battery Park is closed to the public for now, it's safe to assume Castle Clinton is as well.
>running 4s and 5s to South Ferry would
>delay or remove too much Brooklyn service.
You DO realize all it takes is one measly,
simple-as-a-pimple two-car or three-car trainset?
Doubt that'd equal "removing too much Brooklyn service"
Want Proof??: see Grand Central Shuttle
You're just sore that you lose your namesake station.
Walking from Grand Central to Times Square is one thing.
Walking from the terminal to Bowling Green is another.
=)
Ever been at the Battery during the winter -- when it's raining, snowing, or just generally raw?
At the very least, a temporary fully enclosed (and even heated) pedestrian-way would be necessary.
Nice, yes, definitely. Necessary? Buy storm boots.
Hell, just walking from the main building to the east hall at BCC (a distance of roughly 1/4 mile) in pouring rain with no umbrella was an extreme bitch.
What motivated me to just go for it was the thought that hundreds of firefighters and rescue workers were also in the same downpour performing a massively taxing project at the fallen towers.
Plus, when I arrived at my next class, I was rewarded with the lovely site of several young ladies who were also caught short with no umbrella!
Now I just have to call the professor to find out what he actually went over . . . ;-)
--------
What does this have to do with the SF Shuttle? Not much. But it does indicate that a shuttle service of some kind covering a short, but sizable distance can sometimes come in very handy esp. in adverse weather, late at night, or if you're bogged down with heavy and/or multiple parcels.
That walkway's not a bad idea. I've walked from the Ferry to BG. It's very short. However, I think during non-rush hours, 5 trains should stop at SF. They'd have to be switched to the outer loop and then back in again, but so what. They have to go by SF anyway. I don't see why the station can't handle redbirds. It did before. Unless they modified the gap fillers to accomidate R-62s.
Have we became that lazy that we need a shuttle train to go 1 block?
The only reason I stated the 5 running to south Ferry was because of economical reasons.
Hi all,
I've made minor changes to the subway map to reflect MTA subway service change that will start tomorrow 9/19.
Majors changes are as follows:
1 extended to New Lots Avenue (All stops)
2 becomes local
3 terminates at 14th (Express 96 to 14th)
Dave Pirmann will let you all know when it is posted.
Cheers,
Michael Adler
i just got word that the person who originally designed the destroyed twin towers, was hired to start them again. this time they will taller than before to show America's pride and to show that america is right. it will look different from the ones that were destroyed for psychological reasons. Donald Trump is getting in on the plan to rebuild new towers. also, the air routes will be far away from and if planes come near, they will be shot down.
And our next contestant on ''LETS MAKE A DEAL''will be......
Are you referring to the architect, Yamasaki, or the developer??
i just got word that the person who originally designed the destroyed twin towers, was hired to start them again. this time they will taller than before to show America's pride and to show that america is right. it will look different from the ones that were destroyed for psychological reasons. Donald Trump is getting in on the plan to rebuild new towers. also, the air routes will be far away from and if planes come near, they will be shot down
The first casualty of war ....
(Sorry for the repetition)
The planes will be shot down? Are you kidding, LOL??. Who's going to do the shooting? Though NOT a pilot, lower Manhattan can't possibly be in any flight plans because of the height of the skyscrapers.
Michael
the approch the lga is up the hudson river about 3000ft. and right turn in about 95th street. there is (was) also a vfr flight path in husdson at 1000-1100ft.
Wasn't there a commercial from Jet Blue with a plane flying that approach (or something similar)?
Pretty amazing acomplishment, since the original architect has been dead for some time.
-- David
Chicago, IL
Here is the architecture firm's website: Point to http://www.m-yamasaki.com/projs/corporate.html
looking at that site you wouldn't know anything happened at all they still have thier fact sheet up unchanged.
http://www.m-yamasaki.com/projs/wtcfs.html
They did have one page up yesterday regarding the WTC disaster. I guess they took it down.
Every reference to WTC is in the past tense :-(
eggs
The firm still exists, but Minoru Yamasaki himself is dead. Design talent, unfortunately, isn't something that can be passed on to the remaining partners once a firm's founding architect has passed on to the great drafting studio in the sky. And judging by the projects on the firm's website, it looks like they're still cranking out pretty mediocre design work. (Bally Total Fitness in Troy, Michigan?? Good grief...) Don't ask me how they ever got selected to design the original WTC.
I realize it may be blasphemy to say it now, but the World Trade Center was pretty terrible architecture to begin with, even by 1970's standards. The towers became landmarks only because of their sheer size and dominance of the skyline. If the towers had been built at half their size, they would have been utterly forgettable.
Now that the towers have such a tragic history associated with them, I suspect (and hope) that their replacements will be designed by a progressive architect of international stature. Lord Norman Foster, Santiago Calatrava, and Helmut Jahn all come to mind, and I think any of them would produce a world-class design if given the opportunity. New York's own Kohn Pederson Fox could also be a strong contender. Hopefully there will at least be some sort of well-publicized design competition to select the best architect for the project. I may even submit a design myself, depending on what sort of credentials they require.
The worst possible options would be to either build a carbon copy of the original design, or some phony 1920's knock-off that belongs in a Las Vegas. The circumstances of this project demand that the new design look forward, not backward.
-- David
Chicago, IL
I agree in all details. The WTC was, at best, architecturally banal.
It would be nice if something genuinely beautiful went up in its place.
Now that the towers have such a tragic history associated with them, I suspect (and hope) that their replacements will be designed by a progressive architect of international stature. Lord Norman Foster, Santiago Calatrava, and Helmut Jahn all come to mind, and I think any of them would produce a world-class design if given the opportunity. New York's own Kohn Pederson Fox could also be a strong contender.
While it would be a risk to select him on account of his age, the project might be a fitting "last hurrah" for Philip Johnson.
It's just my opinion, but I think Philip Johnson is the most overrated architect of the century... He achieved most of his fame by riding the coattails of whatever design philosophy was fashionable at the time. Also, it's a dirtly little secret in the architectural community that he was a Nazi sympathizer during World War II. (No, I don't have a shred of evidence to back that up -- that's merely what's gone around the rumor mill more than once.) If true, that's hardly the reputation the new WTC needs to have associated with it.
-- David
Chicago, IL
I can appreciate how you feel about it. Aesthetically, there are more attractive ways to design a building, to be sure. Now we have the opportunity to demonstrate that. I just wish it weren't under such unhappy circumstances.
Out of curiosity, how do you feel about the Sears Tower? Do you think it's gorgeous? Do you think it looks banal and uninspired? I'm curious. I don't have strong feelings about its "looks."
I've been up to the top of it. Great views.
It looks like a bunch of black boxes stacked next to each other.
Out of curiosity, how do you feel about the Sears Tower?
Good question. From strictly an engineering point of view, I think it's an incredibly innovative and fascinating structure, both in terms of the bundled-tube structural system as well as the configuration of the elevator system. Just the building's elevator network is an impressive engineering feat in itself.
Architecturally, I give the Sears Tower mixed reviews. When looked upon from a distance and from the right angle, I think it's a very graceful structure that compliments the skyline well. Its setbacks keep it from looking like a banal hulk like the Amoco Building or the former WTC towers. With its cousin the Hancock Center at the other end of the skyline, the two serve as perfect "book ends" for the rest of the Loop skyscrapers.
However, when you get closer to the Sears Tower or look at it from the wrong angle, it really does start to look like a brute. Especially where it meets the street level, a blank wall and barren plaza completely suck the life out of that particular block. (The Hancock Center had the same fatal flaw until a couple years ago when its ground floor and plaza were nicely reconfigured. The entrances of the Sears Tower have been renovated a couple times over the years, making an improvement, but still a mixed success.)
Inside the Sears Tower, though, the newly-renovated lobby areas are very nice. The structural system is left exposed but clad in a nice polished stainless steel, and travertine marble clads the elevator banks. All in all it's a very nice interior space. I have no idea what it looked like before the renovations.
The upper floors of the Sears Tower are fairly standard-issue office space, but with incredible views. And there's a particular architecture firm on the 54th floor that is run by backstabbing, incompetent idiots. But I'm not bitter. :-)
IMO, the John Hancock Center is a much better piece of architecture than the Sears Tower. The massive X-bracing on the sides is pure genius (in addition to saving huge amounts of steel vs. a conventional structure; the amount of steel used in the 100-story Hancock is about the same as a 50-story building of conventional construction), and its gentle taper toward the top lends the Hancock a very graceful elegance.
-- David
Chicago, IL
>>> Especially where it meets the street level, a blank wall and barren plaza completely suck the life out of that particular block. <<<
I am not sure when the Sears Tower went up and have not seen the Sears Tower, but your description of that street level type of facade became popular in the late ‘60s in Los Angeles after the Watts riots. Several buildings that were built or refurbished in Los Angeles were done with only the entry way to the street, and blank walls with no ground floor retail shops. In fact, Sears and other retailers redid their urban retail stores to remove all display windows, and greatly reduce the street entrances (to the minimum allowed by fire laws) and made the main entrance through the parking lot. I guess you could call it the "bunker" school of architecture.
Tom
If new towers are built, they should represent something daring--NYC should be in the vanguard of new trends in archirecture. I wouldn't want two 110 story number 11 again (and I'm not talking abt the Gehry-esque stuff that looks like crumpled paper)...
www.forgotten-ny.com
How tall is this person planing to make the twin towers to replaced those that were destroyed?
#3 West End Jeff
About six feet.
How tall is this person planning to make the twin towers that will take place of those that were destroyed and how many stories high will they be?
#3 West End Jeff
He said he's six feet....geezzzz...
BMTman
Okay, I'll bite: How tall will the new towers be in this rumored plan?
For the third time, Six Feet!
We are getting some very interesting answers to our question about the height of the replacement twin towers.
#3 West End Jeff
Rimshot!
-Hank
How about 5' 8"?:-)
Where did THIS information come from? A Cracker Jacks box???
If so, America still hasn't learned its lesson.
National pride is one thing. Overbearing arrogance is another, and tends to cause folks in less well off countries to get angry.
If a plane comes in on the right velocity (angle and speed), even if you blow it up, the debris of the explosion will hit with nearly as much force as if you hadn't blown it up. Haven't you seen the war movies where they shoot down the kamikaze plane but the remains still hit the carrier deck?
And there are plenty of other vulnerabilites out there besides planes. Some of which even the terrorists haven't thought of yet.
"If a plane comes in on the right velocity (angle and speed), even if you blow it up, the debris of the explosion will hit with nearly
as much force as if you hadn't blown it up. Haven't you seen the war movies where they shoot down the kamikaze plane but the
remains still hit the carrier deck? "
It wasn't the impact the caused the buildings to fall down it was the burning jet fuel i think if the plane were shot that wouldn't be a problem.
If a large plane is shot down over Manhattan, or any urban area like that, it is still a big a problem. You remove one problem, a plane striking a building intact, but create another: Think about how, where, and most likely when, all of the debris and burning jet fuel is going to fall.
-Robert King
perhaps it's time to reactivate ft. tilden. they had anti aircraft guns there specifically to shoot down anything coming from over the ocean towards land. a new defense for north and west of the city would need to be built, though how that'd be accomplished and where it would be built is beyond me...
I know! Let's start shooting at BIRDS! After all, some terrorist may load them up with alka-seltzer and set them to explode!
Do you REALIZE how stupid all of these 'shoot it down' ideas are? First, you risk shooting down completely innocent aircraft.
Second, if you concentrate your efforts on correcting ONE flaw, you wind up NEGLECTING others.
Face it, no matter WHERE you go, WHAT you build, HOW big you build it, or WHO designs it, SOMEONE will find a way to destroy it. There will ALWAYS be those bent on destruction for their alleged beliefs. We cannot continue through this life saying 'If you build it, they will just destroy it again" because if you do, you're admitting defeat. You may as well vacate any building that is more than one story, because after all, someone might try to blow it up!
Wait, we need to forget that, let's all move into TENTS in the DESERT so there is nothing that can be...FORGET THE TENTS. Lets just all wander around naked. That way, no one can hide anything, no one lives anywhere, and nothing can be blown up.
-Hank
>>>Lets just all wander around naked.<<
A most frightening thought....
Peace,
ANDEE
Yeah, trust me -- you wouldn't want to see me naked!
;-)
Lets just all wander around naked.
I'm game. (=
Dan
All you naked gamey guys walkin' around are freighteng the Major Applances. Cover yerself before you catch cold!
LOL
avid
C.B.S. news said this morning that a system has been used to fly fighter jets by remote control, one is seen landing on an aircraft carrer,the system has been installed in passenger jets and flown with no problems,the system could be installed in all airliners so even if a hijacker were to take over a plane the tower will see a devation of the flightpath and gain control of the plane and land it safely at an airfield,it was unclear who would take over control but this would be a better way than to " shoot the plane down " hell one wheel would kill a bunch of people notto mention the dammage caused by the rest of the plane,
the control point could be located hundreds or even thousands of miles as the control signal would be relayed by satellite to the plane.
How well could that signal be encrypted so terrorists don't get hold of that technology and actually seize control of a plane and crash it into a building?
I am not sure that that would be the ideal solution for this either.
Well acording to this person who was on said that the signal would be an extremly hard one to defeat and in no way could the controls be alterd,testing has been going on for years and the FAA said it's what may be installed in all commerical airliners,the cost would be a bit high and for older planes a bit higher but i think it would be worth the cost........anything that would prevent another disaster like the one on Tue.
>>> the system could be installed in all airliners <<<
The airlines would go for it, but they would want it active full time so they wouldn't have to pay all those expensive flight personnel. They could have a standby person on the plane, similar to the way BART operates. (But don't book me on any of those flights until they have a five year perfect record) :-)
Tom
First, BREATHE. Second, GET YOUR FACTS STRAIGHT. No one is going to go SHOOTING DOWN CIVILIAN AIRCRAFT on a 'just because' basis. It is also IMPOSSIBLE to rearrange air routes to avoid the area WITHOUT moving the airports. Trump has nothing to do with it. The architectural firm that designed the towers will be designing replacements, and Mark Green, one of our possible future mayors, has endorsed Giuliani as chairman of the redevelopment committee. The buildings, if they are rebuilt on site, will be rebuilt to closely resemble those that were destroyed. More damage is done by making them 'different' than would be done by making them the same. Expect one of those crossovers like Petronas has; also expect it to be over-designed on a scale never before seen; these buildings will have the advantage of all the technological development of the last 30 years, modern firefighting systems, etc.
BTW, those suggesting a HALON system would have snuffed the fire at WTC-HALON doesn't work in a situation where a large volume of oxygen is present, such as the hole in the side of the building. HALON systems work only in sealed environments as they force out the oxygen, starving the fire of what it needs to burn. That's why HALON systems are tightly regulated, and HALON systems require warnings on the pull alarms. Once activated, they can kill.
-Hank
BTW, those suggesting a HALON system would have snuffed the fire at WTC-HALON doesn't work in a situation where a large volume of oxygen is present, such as the hole in the side of the building. HALON systems work only in sealed environments
Like token booths
Exactly. Halon systems in rooms that lack escape routes are supposed to have emergency oxygen supplies.
What is the TA's orders regarding such?
-Hank
Halon is a product that is banned by the goverment as a dangerious cfc that will harm the ozone layer,it has been replaced with a simuar type of fire fighter chemical,we had to remove 30,000 pounds of the stuff,as we had no choice as epa people was watching every move of the removal.
That's good! But let's keep the exact positioning of the Twin Towers as it was before and make it practical! (Also one tower with the huge antenna, also the rooftop observation deck on the other building).
Those two towers remain in my memory, and created my history. They were the best designs for those towers.
: )
Railfan Pete.
R-142s 6711-15 have just arrived on the property.
Also, Cars 6666-75 are in service on the 2 as of 9/17/01.
6681-85 and 6691-95 were testing again, this time on the 2.
R-142As 7481-85 and an unidentified companion entered service on the 6, on or about 9/14/01.
-Stef
So it looks like the first 15 R142s for the 5 are finally here. I guess R142s in passenger service on the 5 are not too far off now.
First thing is first - Let's get the 6361-6475, and 6481-6500 group shall we? Then I think those 142s will pop up on the 5.
Also, Cars 6541-6575 have NOT been delivered up to this point.
-Stef
I'm glad to see posts on this subject. We can start breathing again and discuss the esoteric points of R142 deliveries. Feels good, doesn't it?
Yeah! I think the WTC Incident has been discussed in great detail. It has also caused some tension here. I'd like to get back to talking about trains again.
-Stef
Those cars still aren't here yet? I thought that might be the case. Where are they? 207th Street yard? The Bombardier plant in Plattsburgh?
6541-75 must be at Plattsburgh, because they are no where to be found on TA Property, unless I'm mistaken.
-Stef
6656-60 have entered service as of 9/19 alongside 6621-25.
6676-80 have also entered service as of 9/19, coupled to 6341-45.
For R142s on the 2, at present: Cars 6301-6355, 6476-80, 6501-35, and 6576-6680 have all entered service.
-Stef
What happened to 6411-6430? I remeber seeing them in service and riding 6411-6420.
They're around, not in consecuitive sets, but mixing with other companions. I haven't seen 6311-20. Anyone seen this set?
-Stef
i think i saw it last week not togther and i saw 6301-6310 first time in a while
I saw it a few days ago coupled together.
When I saw the "Subway Series" train last, one five car set was coupled onto another trainset. IIRC, it was 6311-6315. In addition, 6316-6320 may still be at the East.
Cars which have carried passengers in revenue service through 9/11/01 were:
6301-6355, 6411-6445, 6476-6480, 6501-6535, 6576-6665, 6676-6680 on the 2. Deliveries above 6576 had been completed through 6710 as of that time (that is, 6666-6675 and 6681-6710). I haven't seen anything yet about 6536-6540 entering service though they had been tested; these may be down with pre-acceptance troubles.
7211-7465, 7476-7480 on the 6. I would gather 7466-7475 entered service while I was on vacation (week of 9/3) and cars being tested were 7481-7485 and 7491-7495. Presumably this is what entered service last week.
Having said that, the low 6300s have been in & out of service and are notoriously unreliable. The 6400s ran in late Spring and haven't been seen much since. I would believe they are in the process of modification.
6541-6575 have not yet been delivered. In fact, these may be among the last to come in owing to the necessity of post-production work. If Bombardier commits personnel to these cars it will disrupt production at Plattsburgh so they're roaring ahead with the 6700s. The total contract is now almost to the halfway mark.
Car assignments to line are only beholden to quantity and not specific group. When someone decides the 2 has enough cars the they'll start going elsewhere, regardless of the numbers. Once the delivery process is complete and all cars running (more or less) reliably, then you'll see definitive grouping.
Note To Stef:
Nice job sticking with your updates above all else. A badly needed breath of fresh air!
Regards,
George Chiasson Jr.
(Widecab5@aol.com)
Thanks for the response, and please be sure to keep me up to date.
If I may pick your brain for a moment: 6431-45 are still not in service even though it may be suggested that they are on active duty.
6711-15 were delivered on 9/18, 6701-05 were delivered tonight.
6666-6675 are in service as of 9/17.
7481-85 and 7491-95 have entered service as of last Friday. Many thanks for solving the mystery of what 7481-85 was coupled to.
-Stef
7481-85 and 7491-95 have entered service as of last Friday. Many thanks for solving the mystery of what 7481-85 was coupled to.
HEY! I just rode this pair of R142A's this past Saturday! My dad and I rode car # 7483, which was the one with major defects.
Very loud and squeaky brakes and DOOR #R9 won't even open. It's stuck closed as if it were latch operated.
It's sad to see these R142A's broken so early into service.
: (
Railfan Pete.
Actually, I should be thanking you for tipping me off. I saw that particular train the night before it entered service, being transferred from one yard to another. By chance I saw 7482 thru an opening in the el structure that Thursday, as I was walking home. The whine of the 142A is quite identifible, I figured the train was going somewhere....
As for any problems the cars may still have, be optimistic, as they're still pretty fresh on the road. The bugs will be corrected over time.
-Stef
Don't forget today i saw R142a #7470-#7466 together with #7315-#7311 in Service at Brooklyn Bridge Station this morning.
Peace
David Justiniano
God Bless American
Having said that, the low 6300s have been in & out of service and are notoriously unreliable. The 6400s ran in late Spring and haven't been seen much since. I would believe they are in the process of modification.
Sounds SUSPICIOUSLY like the R16's!
wayne
How often do you look out your bedroom window to see this? Must be a long time since I have seen a lot of postings about R142(A) deliveries.
Also, in what way does this help subway fans? The numbers may help but who knows what percentage of the R142'a are in service? Does anyone here have a notepad to write this all down and keep track of it in their spare time after work?
Are you sure once they have been delivered they are automatically in service the same or the next day?
Railfan Pete.
A certain webmaster we'll call David Pirmann posts the information on this website: http://www.nycsubway.org/cars/r142delivery.html. And he's not the only person around who likes to keep track of such things.
As to whether "Stef" is sure that cars enter service immediately upon delivery, I don't think he ever said that. They go into TESTING soon after delivery and enter service upon successful completion of the testing.
David
When I am home and I hear the whine of a diesel locomotive, I often like to "investigate" what may be coming. 10 R-142 Cars tend to be delivered on a week basis from Plattsburgh to the local freight yard, then 5 at a time on trains coming into TA Property.
>Also, in what way does this help subway fans? The numbers may help but who knows what percentage of the R142's are in service?
I don't have percentage figures to provide for you. Why don't you use the delivery notes page and figure out the math? FYI, I am not the only person who keeps track of this stuff, as there are others like myself who are very much interested.
>>Are you sure once they have been delivered they are automatically in service the same or the next day?
I don't think I have ever said that. Cars are delievered, and soon after they are TESTED.
-Stef
not to bring old news will i sa 6326-6330 testing at 238st with <5> sign with all the signs working
not to bring old news will i saw 6326-6330 testing at 238st with <5> sign with all the signs working
Is this the first time ever for J service to 95th Street under that designation?
Previously you had the Chambers St special, which ran under the RR, then R symbol, and earlier, the RJ which took the same route as the present temporary line.
Since on weekends R's have turned up at Parsons Archer, it's fitting that J's have now made it to 95th Street.
What a shame a disaster of titanic proportions has caused the reroutes--it'd be fun, otherwise.
www.forgotten-ny.com
Yeah, it would be.
There was a GO in which the J ran to 95th Street for about 4 weekends about 3 years ago.
When different equipement and or trains signed for some other line took a different route it sort of had an exotic mystique about it. The people on the platforms would stare at the trains with strange looks on the faces. The riders on the trains would gaze out through the windows bith bewilered looks on their faces.
Of course we know-it-alls would have figured out what went wrongand how this re-route was part of the "fix".
Now "Exotica" is commonplace, and we are all wishing for normalcy.
How strange is That?
avid
There have been some interesting ideas one what should be done, must be down now that we have the opportunity for rethinking the downtown rail lines.
1. Extending PATH upward and eastward onto the East Side IRT local righ-of-way. Not *that* expensive, and actually doable, tho' sending PATH clear into the Bronx would be necessary. It's also that the PATH trains are shorter than IRT trains, which would be a decrease in East Side IRT capacity. Actually, this proposal is essentially a proposal to merge PATH and the IRT into one system. The politics of such a merger would be intense. My own thoughts for PATH are to leave it more or less where it is now, but with much improved access to the (new/rebuilt) subway stations.
2. Hooking up the tracks of the Cortlandt BMT station to the Chamber St. 8th Av local tracks, probably with a new merged local station south of Vesey. This is my favorite all time idea for subway improvements. It's even cheap to do.
3. I've also been playing with the idea of uni-directional rush-hour service for the Montague tube from DeKalb. Building on the BMT/8th Ave hookup, it would feed into three distinct lines and you would not have the problem of excess stock at the terminals during morning rush, while all the stock during the evening rush would end up in Coney Island. You'd even be able to turn back service, much as you do now in lower Manhattan. The merged new 8th Ave-Chambers BMT-Cortlandt station would have provision for turnbacks.
4. This is probably pie-in-the-sky, but I bring it up because a complete rethinking of the WTC area is now possible. I would like to see a new IRT line running from the WTC up West St. to 10th Ave, Amsterdam Ave, clear up to the 90s, to hooking into the existing IRT lines. The Flushing line would be extended west to 10th Ave, with service dividing, half going north, half going south, and a third north-south service. Ideally, there would be provision at the WTC to move equipment between the the lines (a loop under Liberty perhaps). This would relieve the West Side IRT line. Everything coming from Upper Manhattan would become express in the 90s, with direct 42nd and WTC service.
I had this idea myself, for the West St. line that would branch off in Midtown for Queens, while the mainline goes northbound to Harlem. If that were to happen, it would be far off in the future. But since the 9th Av. El was torn down, the far West Side has been desolate. So it's something that should be looked at.
Right after they finish the 2nd Avenue line.
The High Line , West Street and the unused New York Central tracks along the Hudson have attracked my attention for along time. I wouldn't want to see it downsized to IRT specs.
With partial tunnel, cement Viaduct and surface running, the though of its senic run gives me a rush. What a way to go o work or home!
I fear the sloathful progress of the second Ave line will drag down any new lines.
We might get connections or interchanges for flexibility, but don't break your own heart but expecting more.
With the relatively undamaged BMT Cortland St Station, fugget any connection there. Period.
avid
I would think extending the 7 line to Javitz, and turn it southbound on the High line to WTC would be more feasible.
The only way the first idea could be done would be for new URT cars to be built to PATH dimensions. PATH cars are not only shorter but accorsding to PATH maintenance of way and car equipment people, the profile is different. You could run a PATH car in the iRT (or BMT/IND) but an IRT car would strike/rub against the tunnelw alls or even become jammed.
Reducing iRT cars in size would lead to even bigger crowds on the IRT. Have PATH annexed by the system so there are free transfers (and run by PATH employees) but separate lines. We could call the system MTA Hudson Tubes and run by HuTOA(Hudson Tubes Operating Authority).Extned the 33rd line to Javits wiht an across the platform/lower level) transfer to the extended 7 line.
Not only are the "profiles" of PATH cars differennt from the IRT cars, but, I'm pretty sure, so is the height from trackbed to the floor of the cars. PATH originally was integrated into the PRR system, so the height is that of standard railroad "high level platform" cars.
NYCTA cars and platforms, on the other hand, are higher than this, right? Does anyone have exact figures for the distance from the rails to the platforms for railroad cars and for subway cars?
Is some of the E's car allocation going to be coming from Pitkin
now that they are running out to Euclid?
Has to be. It was the same way 1 3/4 years ago when the diamond crossover at WTC was bding replaced. The E line ran its' own cars; and other borrowed cars "belonged" to the A/C lines: Pitkin R32's and R38's assigned to 207th St. All cars were mainytained at their respective barns, it is just that they all ran on the E.
As a very remote and interested observer, can someone tell me what the PATH lines are. They are mentioned in many postings here and also on the excellent NY Times Science site - http://www.nytimes.com/2001/09/18/science/physical/18UNDE.html
This is entitled Havoc Beneath the Trade Centre, and has a slide show, and shows the seismic effect 25 miles away!!!!
Greetings to all there, and our sympathies to all concerned. Go get 'em, and we are with you here in Australia
Stephen
You may go to the Port Authourity for details.
PATH(Port Authority Trans Hudson) is the only subway connection between New York City and New Jersey under Hudson river which is operated by the Port Authourity.
Thanks for that.
PATH's primary purpose is to connect with the NJ Transit commuter train terminals (Newark & Hoboken now, but moons ago, every PATH, formerly Hudson & Manhattan Railroad, station on the Jersey side was an interchange with the regional railroads, such as Lackawanna, Pennsylvania, CRRNJ, et al.). To connect them with the major business districs of Manhattan, namely the Lower Manhattan area and Midtown.
The H&M only served the terminals of the PRR, DL&W and Erie. The CNJ, Lehigh Valley, NYS&W and NYC terminals had to rely on ferries.
I vaguely remember hearing that the NYS&W transferred some passengers to buses to go through the Lincoln Tunnel after that one opened.
And a lovely ride it is too ... long stretches across the meadows of New Jersey.
Mr t__:-(
For basic service information, routes, and fares, please visit: the PATH website.
This branch of the domain also has very helpful schedules and info. about NJ TRANSIT rail service. It was primarily set up for this purpose.
For reasons and history, I'll try to fumble for the PATH site, I know I have been there before, it also lists the car-types of PATH (PA-1,2,3,4), their manufacturers, weight, capacity, year built, etc.
Hope this helps.
: )
Railfan Pete.
please, GET A LIFE!!
Thanks railfan pete, and all others for the info. Does SUBWAYSURF have a small problem with his own life??????????
He's OK ... sometimes he'll reach out a hand & give us a yank when he thinks we're about to fall off the edge. And for some it might be a little nudge ;-)
Mr t
He's sort of a wierd egg. I had a big run-in with him some time back and offered to end the feud. I E-Mailed him and got back no answer. I made the attempt. To me that makes him a horse's ass and will make no more attempt at peace making. I will tell you this. He does have a tendency to be a thought policeman and doesn't like when you disagree with him.
Tried to access the Port Authority website but it seems to be down. I managed to get through after the WTC disaster. Anyone have the same problem ?
Bill "Newkirk"
Yes. Periodically I have not been able to access it.
Actions of PATH train master saves thousands
Peace,
ANDEE
Finally, a story that uplifts the spirit..
Thanks, Andee
What a guy! A quick-thinking hero of the highest order.
Smart, fast moves on the staff's behalf. I wonder if they had their actions planned out as a result of the 1993 bombing? In any case they didn't panic, and they got the job done...
What a great man.
This also may explain why I have ridden a PATH train at World Trade Center just a week before the incident (for the Hoboken Festival).
The NWK bound train came in from which I thought was west.
But then, after it discharged, and boarded passengers, and after the doors have closed, the same train went in the opposite direction of where the train just came from!
This really confused me, and I haven't had my question about this answered since I last posted it on this site.
Railfan Pete.
But then, after it discharged, and boarded passengers, and after the doors have closed, the same train went in the opposite direction of where the train just came from!
What's the big deal? The WTC terminal is a loop.
His wording makes it seem like the train reversed direction while in the terminal instead of looping. I've never seen that, but I think that may the only way to single track through the tube.
They do that quite frequently on nights and weekends to perform tunnel maintenance. When I used to work a 3-11 shift several nights a week we'd end up wrong railing into or out of WTC.
Where would trains switch to / from their correct track?
There's a crossover west of Grove and then others outside the tunnels approaching Journal Square. If it's a Hoboken train it would have to wrong rail all the way to Hoboken. They also single track up to 33rd St. on occasion, in that case they have to run all the way to Grove or Hoboken to cross over. If it's a whole weekend's work sometimes they'll run a shuttle between Christopher and 33rd. and turn trains from NJ back at Christopher to minimize running time.
Does someone have the PATH HERO article saved? I can't seem to get the linked page to load. If you have it, please email it to bmw@writeme.com. Thanks!
Nevermind, I got the article to load up this morning. Thanks.
This was a great story ... thanks for sharing Andree !
Mr t__:-(
I took the LIRR to Flatbush Avenue this morning and then got a 1 train to Houston Street. Seeing a 1 train in Brooklyn certainly was a strange sight, even though I of course knew that it was running there.
Anyway, I saw something that bothered me a bit at the bypassed Park Place and Chambers Street stations. Waist-high orange plastic netting, the sort you often see protecting excavations, had been strung along the platform edges at both stations. Its presence would make it very difficult to use either station to evacuate a train in an emergency. If the intent is to make it clear to train crews that they aren't to open at either station, signs to that effect by the conductors' boards would suffice - that's what was done when Clark Street was closed for a prolonged period.
It looks like NYCT has dropped the ball on this one.
That orange netting can be broken down if need be. There isn't a problem with it.
Perhaps its to protect the tracks from the possible falling debris.
The exits are blocked by debris; so it is impossible to evacuate the stations.
-Hank
The exits are blocked by debris; so it is impossible to evacuate the stations.
I didn't realize that. Thanks for pointing it out.
Is the city hall station affected in any way...does anyone know..?
None of the City Hall stations are affected. They're all far enough north so as to have escaped debris, water damage, etc.
Dan
It is to protect the workers and the train. On the J/M stops being rehabbed they have it. A broom caught in the pantograph gates can get pretty nasty before something breaks it off (like a leg). As a T/O a trackworker with nmo flagging almost hit my cab window with a ladder coming out of a cubby, at 30 mph that would not be too healthy for either of us.
Webbing keeps tools and people stay clear of the moving train.
Unofficially, I think it means you don't have to use the horn like you do at bypassed stations unless of course there is flagging or someone is on the wrong side of the netting. I am surprised there is no memo or bulletin yet.
Not that everyone does, but you are ALWAYS supposed to sound the horn when entering and leaving bypassed stations, as well as leave no faster than 15mph. When Clark St was closed there were occasionally TSSs there complaining about lack of horn. My advice: Blow the horn until YOU see something that says otherwise.
Orange plastic netting....
easy to step on, easy to step over...
No safety hazard seen.
Tho steer clear the debris-filled exits!
Aren't they doing the same thing on the side platform el stations being renovated along the J on Broadway?
I thought it was a message that it wasn't safe to discharge passengers at these stations!
The MTA has now replaced it's "Emergency Notice" website with a "Service Alert" website. The new URL is -
http://www.mta.nyc.ny.us/alert/alertnyct.htm
That's neat! How'd you get the "There are no responses to this message" to become an active link?
This article says that too many people are still driving, causing big delays at the Lincoln Tunnel. Mass transit is preferable but even so it isn't a cure-all.
From The Record of Hackensack:
http://www.bergen.com/news/commute1200109192.htm
Key things to note:
- NJ wants to get PATH running downtown ASAP. I don't know how they plan to do this.
- Lincoln Tunnel express bus lane is now open as early as 5:45 and could open even earlier if there's demand.
- NY Waterway could handle 5x its current volume of ferry passengers but people are driving instead. My hunch is there isn't enough bus/train service to NY Waterway launching points.
- Ridership numbers for bus, train, PATH, and ferry for this week so far.
When I was going home this morning when I went to buy me and my MOM Breakfast. I was at 71 Ave waiting for a train to go to Union Turnpike I saw and got on a R-38 running on the (E)!!! I got on car #4004 for 1 stop to Union Turnpike from 71 Ave.(My MOM let's me go outside and get thing's. Some 13 Year OLDS do that).
So I got a Question. Are they starting to send R-38's to Kew Gardens Yard?
R38's are being used on periodical E trains currently on the Queens Blvd. line. I don't know much about Kew Gardens yard, but I'm sure they are.
I saw one too at 23rd St. Ely Av. on the s/b platform while I was riding a R32 E train n/b.
Also, I have been noticing more R38's on the A in a small amount of time esp. on Sundays at Penn Station.
Periodically, there will be an A train s/b which is an R38, then the n/b will be R38, then the second s/b train is an R38. (True story).
Also, my dad and I made a visit to Penn Sta. the Saturday after, and the s/b train was an R38! We boarded the second car (#4613), and the doors and the ride was great!
(Probably this is the reason why R44's are being ruled out on the popular list.)
After this, our train came and we boarded.
: )
Railfan Pete.
Thanks and anouther thanks for telling me you got on one.
#4613 is a # of a R-42. So can you be thinking of #4113?
You're welcome.
I am definitely sure the # was 46--.
I don't carry around with me a notepad, so these numbers are from memory. This one i particular might have a flaw.
I've seen a lot of #41--'s.
IRONICALLY, while on a railfanning trip on Saturday many months ago, we boarded an R42 #46-- on the J at Jamaica Center.
Hmm.
Railfan Pete.
It is very unlikely that an A train would run R42s. what did the car look like?
#4613 is the number of an R42 car, not an R38. I would guess that the number you saw was #4013, since both "0" and "6" are round.
NYCT tries very hard not to have more than one unit with the same number in active service. The last time I saw this happen was back in 1969 with the 16xx series "Q" cars and 16xx series R-7. Right now, I I do not believe there are any duplicates in service.
wayne
You are so full of shit,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,THAT it is
UNBLEIVABLE
Um, OK. You must be running around with your laptop just responding to postings whenever you feel like it.
Within the past 3 weeks, your postings have showed no intelligence to prove to me anything,
SO JUST CHILL.
How can you get internet acess with a Laptop? INPOSSABLE!
Wireless modem.
Plug it in... same way the rest of us do (I'm posting this from my big Mac at home, but I also post from a laptop when I'm on the road). My younger two children only have laptops, so they plug in when they want to connect to the 'net, normally via a cable modem.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
It is possible. You can have a external modem or wireless modem.
1. the E is getting their r38s from pitkin yard
2. If there are more 38s where would the 44s go?
2. If there are more 38s where would the 44s go?
The T/A might have squished all of the R38's running on the A line altogether. I haven't seen much R44's on the A lately, or is it just a coincidence between the trains and I?
This I observed from 34 St. Penn Station and Canal St. Station.
Although I saw one or roughly two at Canal St heading s/b.
Railfan Pete.
R38's are on the E because the line goes to Euclid and the C line cars (Pitkin assigned R32's and 207th St assigned R38's) are needed to provide the expanded service. There is no reason to send an R38 to Jamaica Yard since it is not assigned there for maintance purposes. The E line dispatcher has enough problems getting their own R32's and R46's to Jamaica Yard for inspections and repair of defective cars.
Does anyone have any insight, why Wall St. on Lex line is closed?
Arti
Why is Wall street closed yet Fulton street remains open.Isn't the Fulton street station closer to the World trade center?
[Isn't the Fulton street station closer to the World trade center? ]
It sure is.
Arti
Because of where the exits are. Wall St on the 4/5 exits directly to Broadway. Fulton has multiple exits away from Broadway; additionally, you may not even be able to exit at Fulton, it may only be open to tie together transfers for all the affected lines.
-Hank
Because of where the exits are. Wall St on the 4/5 exits directly to Broadway. Fulton has multiple exits away from Broadway; additionally, you may not even be able to exit at Fulton, it may only be open to tie together transfers for all the affected lines.
I saw people entering at Fulton today, so presumably they can exit too.
I was at this complex twice this past week. There are hand lettered signs directing customers to only certain exits.
My guess --
The demarcation line of the forbidden zone runs right down the center of Broadway. The entrance/exit from the southbound tracks of the Wall Street stop is on the west side of Broadway so it must be closed. There is a crossunder but it's cramped, and there aren't enough exits on the east side of Broadway to handle both lines.
Fulton Street has enough east-of-Broadway exits to allow them to close all the west-of-Broadway exits, and the crossunders are larger since it's a transfer complex.
I also think it is a measure to keep a flood of people away from the Stock Exchange which is on the 2nd block of Wall Street just down from Broadway. Sort of like when they close the closest subway stations to a parade route.
The station was re-opened about 6:20PM on wednesday evening. It was feared the vibrations from the passing trains might cause other weakened buildings at the site to collapse.
I have been reading some news articles around lately, talking about the water basin supports in the foundation of the WTC. They're saying that they must be very careful when removing the debris because if those supports were upset or damaged, it could cause the Hudson to flood into the the foundation, and subsequently, the subway system.
Does anyone here have any views on what kind of damage this could do? I saw a posting earlier about how they pump water out of the tunnels, but I imagine that if they Hudson flooded into the system, this could be a terrible catastrophe. Could it drown everyone in the tunnels at that time?
What do you all think?
Wayne
(here is a link for reference: New York subway at risk of major flood
I'll go back to what I posted yesterday -- When the towers were built, there were right up against the Hudson, with only West Street seperating them. Now, all the dirt from the foundation has been dumed on the other side of West Street, with the World Financial Center and Battery Park City being construction on that side, which have their own underground foundations. That pushes the Hudson another 150 yards away from the Trade Center's foundation, though landfill is more movable than the land based on Manhattan schist from the 1/9 tunnel east.
To breech the WTC's foundation area, the Hudson will have to subduct the Battery Park City landfill and building foundations and come in at the bottom of the pit. It's possible, but I would suspect if anything happened right away, it would be a slow mud bubble ooze coming out of the west wall of the pit. How repairable that would be would likely depend on how much debris had been removed from the site to get patch crews in when it happened.
You're thinking in terms of a blow out (or in, if you prefer), which I agree seems pretty remote, if the nearest shoreline is over 400 feet away. I suppose that you could still have a substantial flow through percolation through the soil. I would have thought that a decent pump could handle that.
That's pretty much what I was trying to say -- with the compacting of the landfill west of the WTC site by the World Financial Center buildings, any breech would have to come in under the WFC foundations towards the bottom of the Trade Center pit, and would probably resemble a slow mud flow bubbling out the west wall of the pit.
If left unchecked, it could turn into a flood, and the debris might make that hard to get to right now, but workers could probably drill down into the ground on West Street and pump in a clay filler or some type of concrete there to stop the leak.
I'll go back to what I posted yesterday -- When the towers were built, there were right up against the Hudson, with only West Street seperating them. Now, all the dirt from the foundation has been dumed on the other side of West Street, with the World Financial Center and Battery Park City being construction on that side, which have their own underground foundations. That pushes the Hudson another 150 yards away from the Trade Center's foundation, though landfill is more movable than the land based on Manhattan schist from the 1/9 tunnel east.
To breech the WTC's foundation area, the Hudson will have to subduct the Battery Park City landfill and building foundations and come in at the bottom of the pit. It's possible, but I would suspect if anything happened right away, it would be a slow mud bubble ooze coming out of the west wall of the pit. How repairable that would be would likely depend on how much debris had been removed from the site to get patch crews in when it happened.
The article in the Science section of yesterday's Times had a better explanation.
The PATH tunnels hug the river and are fairly deep. The surface level is only around 13 ft above sea level. The Jersey side is below the WTC side so are part of the tunnels to 33rd St. So, if the there is a path for the river into the tunnels at WTC it will flow up to 6th Ave unless stopped. The PATH 6th Ave line is directly above and along side of the 6th Ave IND tunnels.
The original shore line was Greenwich St. The 2 blocks from Greenwich to West St were earlier landfill. This landfill and that added by the WTC is held in place by the WTC foundation. The landfill is trying to push the WTC foundation inwards. The WTC's concourse floors were pushing the foundation outward and holding the landfill in check. With the WTC destruction, the structural engineers theorize that the concourse no longer has the strength to hold back the foundation and that the debris is currently doing that job. They theorize that there will be problems as debris is removed from the concourse the foundation might collapse.
BTW, before the WTC was built, the buildings between Washington and West Sts would flood about once or twice a year on exceptional high tides.
Say what you will about the WTC, I'm still mourning Washington Market and Radio Row. Where's Leotone - all tubes 5 cents - guaranteed to light. Where's Leeds - chokes and transformers 10 cents a pound - he weighed them with a fish scale.
It seems to me that the first question is the elevation of the IRT tunnel floors within the WTC. (The IND and BMT platforms are level with the WTC concourse, which we know is above sea level. The tracks are a couple of feet lower, but still above sea level.) The second question is the elevation of the PATH tracks at their highest point between Exchange Place and the beginning of the tunnel heading under the river toward 33rd Street. If both the IRT tunnel and the PATH tunnel are above sea level at some point through which the water would have to flow in order to flood the system, there can be no flood without a source of water above sea level.
Anybody know the elevation of the IRT and PATH tunnels in the critical areas?
That UK article says that tunnels go north from Hudson Terminal to 33rd Street, from which point the flooding is supposed to spread throughout the subway system.
They don;t say that the water has to go to New Jersey first before it can rush back up 6th Avenue. This seems rather dubious to me. Is the entire eastern part of the PATH system (WTC to Pavonia and back to NYC) all below sea level? It would have to be for the scenario to even be possible.
Plus--how much of the subway system is below sea level?
Wouldn't flooding of the 1/9 cause the same problem for Manhattan?
The PATH terminal is much lower than the 1/9. The 1/9 might be above sea level, I don't know.
Todd's measured everywhere else, I wonder if he has measured the IRT below Chambers Street?
Interesting article. Sorry, no HTML, though -- just cut and paste.
http://uk.news.yahoo.com/010919/12/c4j6q.html
CG
Also, the following article on the towers' engineering:
http://www.newscientist.com/news/news.jsp?id=ns99991281
Did you notice the propaganda aspect of this article. The designers of the structure are scared to death that someone is going to blame them.
Any truth that they are rerouting power lines in the N/R subway tunnels?
As part of this, I understand that R service may return to Whitehall St from Brooklyn, with trains turning there to head back to Brooklyn.
-Hank
I doubt it. Too much traffic in the Montague tunnel for this type of service that would duplicate the "J" service to Bay Ridge.
I haven't heard anything about that. By doing this, the J can be cut back to Broad St. Personally, I do not think this is a good idea. No matter how many announcements are made, passengers coming from Brooklyn will wind up at Whitehall St, expecting the train to continue north. They would have to return to Brooklyn. No matter how many posters are up on the street, people by the street entrances will enter the system at Whitehall St. station expecting service to go north and then demand a refund once they find out they are committed to go to Brooklyn. The crews will be inundated with questions on the platform, passengers would hold doors delaying the departing trains. In retrospect, I think the J and the M are handling the south Brooklyn service quite well.
I certainly hope so. After Monday's debacle, stock prices are once again down sharply today. This time, it's supposedly because of fears that consumers will stop spending in the aftermath of the terrorist attacks - that they'll "hunker down," to use a trendy expression that I particularly loathe. What scanty evidence is available this soon tends to show that while spending did drop in the first few days after the attacks, it recovered pretty well by the weekend. Hardly the sort of evidence that should trigger a market crash. Oh, investors also are said to be frightened by gloomy announcements from Eastman Kodak (old news, it's been troubled for quite a while) and Boeing (a very thinly disguised ploy to encourage Congress to help the airline industry).
As I said in my posting on Monday evening, this sell-out-at-any-price panic behavoir shows what stock market investors really think about America. Ignore all this pious flag-waving and singing of "God Bless America" and crap like that.
As far as I'm concerned, the only real difference between Osama Bin Laden and a typical investor is that the investor has taken a shower more recently.
Right now, the scheduled weekend memorial in Central Park has been canceled, and sources reportedly are finding links between several suspected terrorist associates and Saturday, Sept. 22, though they're not sure what the connection is yet. Given those reports this morning, there are bound to be more jitters between now and Saturday.
What the stock sellers are doing is reacting to fear and in many cases the potential loss of their life savings. And though we don't know where the bottom is, they are also creating bargains for others. All the value on Wall Street is just a paper estimate of what investors think/hope/guess/imagine stocks are worth. The real value of these assets in unchanged.
I though you were going someplace else with that overblown Subject line--to the possibility that the terrorists and their sympathizers made a killing by selling short before the terrorist acts.
What the stock sellers are doing is reacting to fear and in many cases the potential loss of their life savings.
Fear of what? As bad as these attacks were, they aren't going to destroy the American economic system. Even the airlines are likely to recover sooner than later even without federal assistance. The collapse of Long-Term Capital a few years back had a far greater potential to wreak havoc with the economic system, and indeed with our lifestyles, than the collapse of the WTC, but as it wasn't a dramatic event most people paid no attention.
I also hasten to point out that a significant percentage of today's panic sellers probably bought stocks when prices were so high. As a result, they're anencephalically converting paper losses into real losses.
And though we don't know where the bottom is, they are also creating bargains for others.
In theory. In practice - well, where are the buyers??
Fear of what?
War. Danger. Uncertainty. Not knowing where market psychology will go. Losing their life savings. Their retirement. Their homes.
And though we don't know where the bottom is, they are also creating bargains for others.
In theory. In practice - well, where are the buyers??
Volumes are huge. For every stock sold, there is a buyer. There have been cases where stocks plummeted because noone was buying--so far, this isn't one of them.
If you're looking for a villain, how about the airlines. They compromised safety to fill seats and make profits, hired people that may have been accomplices, and paid skimpy wages to people charged with enforcing safety at the gate. They've helped contribute to the panic by announcing massive layoffs before the dust has had a chance to settle and are going to Congress for $$billions to bail out all the aforementioned actions.
If you're looking for a villain, how about the airlines. They compromised safety to fill seats and make profits, hired people that may have been accomplices, and paid skimpy wages to people charged with enforcing safety at the gate. They've helped contribute to the panic by announcing massive layoffs before the dust has had a chance to settle and are going to Congress for $$billions to bail out all the aforementioned actions.
I'm no fan of the airline industry - as far as I'm concerned, there's only one decent airline (hint: it's the one whose stock has suffered the least this week and which has consistently outperformed the rest of the industry by almost any financial and operating measure).
Even so, I'm not going to rush to judgment to blame them for security lapses. Until eight days ago there was an "it can't happen here" attitude in America that often led to a certain casualness when it came to security. Moreover, (1) airport security is the sort of thing that should be a federal responsibility, and (2) we still don't know exactly how the hijackers got their weapons onto the planes.
I do agree that the airlines have been way too hasty in announcing massive layoffs. American Airlines just canned 20,000. It may well be that air travel will recover quickly. But by getting rid of so many workers, who will take some time to recall, the airlines have basically guaranteed that their service will be wretched if any when passenger volumes recover. To some extent, in fact maybe to a very large extent, these layoffs are a way of sending a message to Congress that relief is needed soon. While I'm generally opposed to taxpayer assistance for private businesses, this is an exceptional situation and I think that some form of aid is appropriate.
By the way, it's worth noting that my favorite airline, Sou - oops, almost slipped there, you're supposed to guess its name - has so far avoided any layoffs.
One more thing, as you probably know by now, today's stock market debacle didn't turn out quite so bad as feared. All the indices dropped but ended well off their lows thanks to a late-day rally. Let's hope sanity prevails tomorrow.
"Sanity" is probably the S&P between 900 and 1000. Stocks have been way overpriced for four years, and all those who have money sucked out of their 401Ks and put in the stock market every two weeks (myself included) have been overcharged. It's about time I got a fair price.
If the S&P keeps going down, then you can say the sellers are being irrational. But don't execute 'em. Buy from 'em.
Think positive!
:-)
Arti
When the idiots see how much money this week's smart buyers make in about 6 months, they will kill themselves, making the execution procedure unnecessary BUY, BUY, BUY!!
"Sanity" is probably the S&P between 900 and 1000. Stocks have been way overpriced for four years, and all those who have money sucked out of their 401Ks and put in the stock market every two weeks (myself included) have been overcharged. It's about time I got a fair price.
Granted there has been a ridiculous bubble in stock prices, but the fact also remains that our economy has become increasingly dependent on high prices. A sustained period of depressed stock prices will be bad for consumer spending - the loss of the "wealth effect" - and in turn will be bad for the entire economy.
I dread tomorrow's (Thursday's) stock trading. As usual, the Labor Department will release its weekly report on first-time unemployment claims an hour before the markets open. This was always a very much second-tier sort of statistic that got relatively little attention, but in the last several months it has become far more important, a real market-mover. If it's not favorable, expect more panic selling and more misery down the road.
(Granted there has been a ridiculous bubble in stock prices, but the fact also remains that our economy has become increasingly dependent on high prices. A sustained period of depressed stock prices will be bad for consumer spending - the loss of the "wealth effect" - and in turn will be bad for the entire economy. )
It's dependent on a lot of things, notably rising consumer debt -- which can't go on forever. Profits were inflated because consumer products companies didn't pay their workers (McJobs) and still were able to sell to them -- by loaning them money. Business to business sales (ie. technology) were pumped up the same way, by lending to customers. It had to shake out, and it will.
Looks like the travel industry will absorb much of the inevitable slowdown in consumer spending. Autos will be hit to. In the end, however, we'll be OK.
(expect more panic selling and more misery down the road.)
Misery was having my 401K plan automatically buy stock at inflated prices. At least I might be able to retire 25 years from now on the stock I'm buying NOW.
Profits were inflated because consumer products companies didn't pay their workers (McJobs) and still were able to sell to them -- by loaning them money. Business to business sales (ie. technology) were pumped up the same way, by lending to customers. It had to shake out, and it will.
Lending to customers was what hit Lucent so hard. Many of their so-called "sales" were actually these loans in disguise. Eventually, it caught up with them.
Can't we just talk about TRAINS here?? We're supposed to be a community here, let's not rant about politics, Wall Street, etc...
That is the real problem, no buyers. Many funds were heavy in cash and have a responsibility not to jump on the grenade with their clients money for the sake of patriotism. As it turns out B&N and some other retailers are doing better than last year after a 4 day plummet in sales.
The share volume has been fairly light considering what has happened. Millions of shares HAVE to be sold each day, portfolio rebalancing, cash flow and if people are not buying you get this.
AT&T and GM are particularly attractive DOW components right now.
Are you BUYING?
>>> Fear of what? As bad as these attacks were, they aren't going to destroy the American economic system. <<<
This is your opinion, so you should be making a fortune buying stocks at bargain prices. What are you complaining about? Those who think stock prices will go down are selling now with the idea of buying back at lower prices. That is how the stock market operates, and has since its beginning. The four day closure was a cooling off period so there would not be panic selling. As always, capitalists are assessing the future of the companies and making their buy and sell decisions using their best judgment. For them to do otherwise would destroy the utility of the stock market.
Tom
As always, capitalists are assessing the future of the companies and making their buy and sell decisions using their best judgment. For them to do otherwise would destroy the utility of the stock market.
That's the problem - investors aren't using their best judgment, or any judgment at all. They're motivated largely by panic.
All right. I've f***ing well had it. Stocks are way down again today, major indices off about 3%, thanks to the treasonous behavoir of ignorant schmuck stock traders. Their idiotic panic selling, in addition to showing a complete lack of faith in the American system, is steadily wiping out vast amounts of wealth and effectively finishing the job that Osama Bin Laden started. In fact, at this point I almost have more respect for Bin Laden and his followers than I do for these anencephalic investors.
What is particularly shocking is that these investors are ignoring the government's best efforts to calm the markets. Bush has said that there will be assistance for the airline industry and other sectors of the economy. He'll outline the details in his speech tonight. Unfortunately, with what's been happening today, tonight may be too late. And Alan Greenspan just finished telling Congress that while there are some short-term risks, the U.S. economy remains fundamentally sound and long-term prospect are bright. Not that it matters - investors are too worried about "uncertainty." Well, Mr. Typical Investor, I'll give you some certainty. Someday you (and everyone else) will be rotting in a coffin. There's your certainty, retard.
Oh, at least there's one bright spot in all this. We won't have to worry about how long it will take to reconstruct the 1/9 line. That's because with the way stocks have been falling, there won't be any need for the line because no one will have a job to commute to!
The "typical investor" doesn't follow the rules in the book.
You can,t blame investors for being afraid their life savings will be wiped out if they hold their stocks. It isn't treason to follow what many think is rational economic behavior. In time, the market will rebound.
You can,t blame investors for being afraid their life savings will be wiped out if they hold their stocks. It isn't treason to follow what many think is rational economic behavior. In time, the market will rebound.
Except that panic selling converts paper losses into real losses. It is very unlikely, indeed effectively impossible, that any but a small minority of stocks will be left completely valueless. Holding on until things improve is the rational way to act. Not to mention the patriotic way to act.
a paraphrase--as we are hangmg them, the capitalists will be competing to sell us more rope attributed to V I Lenin. I am amazed that you expect 'patriotic' behaviour from the folks who close factories in this country while moving the work offshore--EQUALLY TREASONOUS AND IN FACT FAR MORE DEVASTATING TO WORKING AMERICANS
You blame Wall Streeters for pessimism?!?
It's not Wall Street who are saying they will never fly again.
It's not Wall Street who are canceling long-scheduled vacations, concerts, festivals, etcetera.
It's not Wall Street who are saying we should never build another skyscraper after what happened to the World Trade Center.
It's not Wall Street who are suggesting that we should "decentralize" our population for safety -- as if enough of that hasn't already occurred under the title of suburbanization and sprawl!
No, it's not Wall Street that's doing all those things, it's "MAIN STREET", Mr. and Mrs. America and their 2.5 kids and a dog.
Lots of people are scared and concerned, and lots of people are reacting irrationally but in a completely understandable manner emotionally speaking. Investors aren't creating the fear and uncertainty, they are REACTING to the PUBLIC'S uncertainty and fear.
You blame Wall Streeters for pessimism?!?
It's not Wall Street who are saying they will never fly again.
It's not Wall Street who are canceling long-scheduled vacations, concerts, festivals, etcetera.
It's not Wall Street who are saying we should never build another skyscraper after what happened to the World Trade Center.
It's not Wall Street who are suggesting that we should "decentralize" our population for safety -- as if enough of that hasn't already occurred under the title of suburbanization and sprawl!
No, it's not Wall Street that's doing all those things, it's "MAIN STREET", Mr. and Mrs. America and their 2.5 kids and a dog.
Lots of people are scared and concerned, and lots of people are reacting irrationally but in a completely understandable manner emotionally speaking. Investors aren't creating the fear and uncertainty, they are REACTING to the PUBLIC'S uncertainty and fear.
Investors may not be creating the fear, but they are assuming that the fear is a permanent thing. Fears and attitudes are not carved in stone. Sure, some people right now are running scared, with images of the burning towers fresh in the minds. But things change. I am confident that in fairly short order, probably a matter of weeks rather than months, air travel will begin to pick up - indeed, there's some evidence of an increase in just the last couple of days. And the talk about no more skyscrapers, decentralization, etc. is just that. Talk.
A philosophy on investment that was already in play before the event was as follows - I present it SOLELY in hopes of raising some smiles:
Finally advice that makes sense!
If you had bought $1,000 worth of Nortel stock a year ago you would currently have $47.00.
If you had bought $1,000 worth of beer in the USA (where cans have a return value) you would currently have $79 worth of EMPTY beer cans.
Sell Stocks. Buy Beer.
LOL!
That's a good one, BTW what kind of beer would you suggest to maximize return?
:-)
Arti
Some companies sell their 16 oz. beer cans for the same price as their 12 oz six-packs, so for the small investor with limted assets, the 16 oz. option would provide the maximum return on investment, based on the amount of aluminum needed to encase the additional four ounces of product.
Of course, for the larger investor, the discounts available through bulk purchasing can create the greatest return on investment -- the 24-can cases and the new marking device of the 30-can packs are offered to consumers at deep discounts compared with the prices asked on smaller purchase orders. A trip to a discount beverage broker such as selected Cosco or Sam's outlets cam proffer even more savings on purchase price to the discerning beer investor.
Of course, one also has to think in terms of what is most important to them -- short term profits or long term investment. We'll discuss that topic next time when we look at "Cans vs. Bottles."
There is, however, one factor which makes investing in beer (as opposed to stocks) a less-attractive proposition: the cost of membership in Weight Watchers, Nutrisystem or a similar outfit, which will be needed to get rid of one's beer belly. But then again, beer's investment value might recover somewhat if one instead took advantage of those "Lose 30 pounds in 30 days" cards commonly seen on the subway.
A reassessment of assets for investment should be undertaken at the time funds are directed towards fermented malt, barley and hops for their casing redemption values.
The ability to detach the investment in beer from it's tradional connection -- the investment in "munchies" which brings with it a far lower post-consumption return to to the low recycling price for paper and/or soft plastics -- is a critical discipline a wily investor must take into account to avoid any ancillary spending on currently-unneeded services such as a diet program, or in the extreme, a weining program such as the Betty Ford Clinic, due to to lack of diversification of assests through concentration of funds in the beer can collection/redemption area.
A balanced investment strategy is always key to long-term profitability...
One other problem with beer as a long-term investment: your water bills will be substantially higher due to increased toilet-flushing.
Even so, it still compares favorably to Nortel stock ...
Well, I've always invested in the Blue Chips myself - Foster's Lager, Labatts (ick!) and other imports. But I suppose the best P/E would be on Old Milwaukee and your cheaper beers, since you get more cans for your buck. For now though, I'll take a lower rate of return and suck down some Kronenbourgs. :)
As far as I'm concerned, the only real difference between Osama Bin Laden and a typical investor is that the investor has taken a shower more recently
The only real difference is that typical investors didn't make money by buying Put Options in AMR and UAL!
As far as I'm concerned, the only real difference between Osama Bin Laden and a typical investor is that the investor has taken a shower more recently
The only real difference is that typical investors didn't make money by buying Put Options in AMR and UAL!
Good one!
Here's the link to a FoxNews story on investigations regarding suspicious financial trades, possibly involving Osama Bin Laden -
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,34650,00.html
If I buy stock at depressed prices now, does that make me a criminal?
If I buy stock at depressed prices now, does that make me a criminal?
Not at all. The criminals are all these investors who unload their portfolios in a panic, no matter how low the prices are. What idiots.
>>> If I buy stock at depressed prices now, does that make me a criminal? <<<
Well if those selling are criminals you are at least an accessory. :-)
Tom
When you talk about "stock sellers" you're talking about millions of American investors making personal economic decisions. It sure did look bad and "unpatriotic" but it isn't like you could point to a specific person or persons and blame them for the awful market declines this week. But I understand how you feel.
If you had a few brain cells you would be out there buying as many shares as your could as "in your expert opinion" they are undervauled and hense a real deal. I hope more idiot investors painc and sell because the lower prices get the better the deals. The best way to get back at these clowns is to buy low and laugh all the way up.
(I hope more idiot investors painc and sell because the lower prices get the better the deals. The best way to get back at these clowns is to buy low and laugh all the way up.)
There's the spirit. Bad enough those born between 1958 and 1965 paid too much for their houses (the older boomers drove up the price), have plataued at low salaries (older boomer got all the jobs), and won't get social security until age 67 (if at all). We've been overcharged for stock, too. Let them sell.
Bad enough those born between 1958 and 1965 paid too much for their houses (the older boomers drove up the price)
I'm not sure I follow this reasoning. The big run-up in house prices started around 1995, with some regional variations. It seems reasonable to say that most people born between 1958 and 1965 who've bought houses after 1995 are trade-up buyers and have benefitted from appreciation in the values of their previous houses. They haven't really "overpaid." Granted, first-time buyers after 1995 have had to pay a lot, but I would doubt if too many of them were born in the 1958-1965 period. First-time buyers tend to be younger than that.
If you had a few brain cells you would be out there buying as many shares as your could as "in your expert opinion" they are undervauled and hense a real deal. I hope more idiot investors painc and sell because the lower prices get the better the deals. The best way to get back at these clowns is to buy low and laugh all the way up.
I looked into setting up an online trading account, but they all seem to require an initial minimum deposit of $1,000 or more. That's too much for me to swing right now, what with a bunch of expenses. Most of my cash is tied up in my 401K - which is well down off its highs, but I don't care as I have an investment horizon longer than one week, unlike the vast majority of idiot investors.
Exactly, call a broker and buy a good, solid company that just look a hit. In the long run you're loking at an 8-11% annual return. I might get some Southwest Airlines now that it is a $13 or some more Lucent Tech which is hovering above $5.
I put down $500 in Ameritrade recently. You need $2000 to use margin and to sell short.
I heard a story that some persons put in large options orders for United and American stock (and only United and American stock) the day before the attack. They then excersised those options last monday, thus cashing in on the change in airline stock price. By choosing options instead of a short sale they brought this little "divinely inspired" trade to many people's attention, including the FBI. The government is now all over these trades like white on rice and they are following the money as it snakes its way through the system with the likley intention of finding terrorists at the other end.
Do anybody know what should I do if someone's call me a bitch ass?
"I am rubber, you are glue, what you say to me sticks to you."
--Great Quotations of All Time Series
Okay. Thanks!
Can you just punch the person in the face?
>>>>>>>>Do anybody know what should I do if someone's call me a bitch ass?
Open up a can of whoop ass.
Open up a can of whoop ass.
-----------------------------------------------------------
LOL.
If you're asking what you should do, you might just well be a bitch ass. Stop being a bitch ass, I suppose is what you should do :)
Trow 'em a beatin.
depends upon whether you are male or female.
If that's the biggest problem in your life you are one lucky S.O.B.
Get down on your knees and do stuff Jesus wants, and what you think Allah wants.
Cry.
As a result of last weeks attack several episodes of the Simpson's are being pulled or altered.
I have read that both The City of New York vs. Homer Simpson and You Only Move Twice have both been pulled in most areas. I have read that 3 more episodes are being altered Grade School Confidential, The Joy of Sect and Simpson Tide.
The City of New York vs. Homer Simpson and You Only Move Twice are two of the best. I can see why they might not show the former for a while, but the latter is just a James Bond spoof. You know, since Hank Scorpio took over the East coast I would have thought our defences against terrorism to be better. Oh well, I guess super villians aren't much better than regular politions.
All except the former will be back soon. But the NYC episode takes place all over the WTC. It will be back, but not for a while.
I wonder is the Khar Ka'lash guy is ok. Last time I was there I didn't see him in the courtyard. Hope they didn't put him in the observation lounge.
"I wonder is the Khar Ka'lash guy is ok."
He was in Springfield when Lisa had to take the bus.
In the Russian District.
On pashol nye vtoo storonu.
Mmmmmmmmmmm, Craaaaaaaaaaaaabbb Juuuuuuuuuuuiiiiccee!
It's Khlav K'alash!:)
Fresh Khlav K'alash! Get your Khlav K'alash here!
WTF?!? Oh well, to see all of these in full you can always go to the Museum of Television and Radio on 52st, between 6th and 5th aves, and pay the $6 fee to browse the library.
They'll be yanked for a while, but if we're able to shut down the terrorist cells, the shows will eventually return to the syndication package. I remember back in the 1960s, when "McHale's Navy" went into syndication, one of the key end gags on an episode involved a shot of PT 109, the boat commanded by John F. Kennedy during World War II. That scene was edited out for a number of years by WNEW because of JFK's assassination, but returned in the 1970s.
ere is the list of songs deemed "lyrically questionable" by Clear Channel (large group of radio stations.
I think this goes a little to far
Alice In Chains, "Rooster"
Alice In Chains, "Sea of Sorrow"
Alice In Chains, "Down in a Hole"
Alice In Chains, "Them Bones"
Beastie Boys, "Sure Shot"
Beastie Boys, "Sabotage"
The Cult, "Fire Woman"
Everclear, "Santa Monica (Watch the World Die)"
Filter, "Hey Man, "Nice Shot"
Foo Fighters, "Learn to Fly"
Savage Garden, "Crash and Burn"
Dave Matthews Band, "Crash Into Me"
Bangles, "Walk Like an Egyptian"
Pretenders, "My City Was Gone"
Alanis Morissette, "Ironic"
Barenaked Ladies, "Falling for the First Time"
Fuel, "Bad Day"
Korn, "Falling Away From Me"
Red Hot Chili Peppers, "Aeroplane"
Red Hot Chili Peppers, "Under the Bridge"
Smashing Pumpkins, "Bullet With Butterfly Wings"
Peter Gabriel, "When You're Falling"
System Of A Down, "Chop Suey!"
Lenny Kravitz, "Fly Away"
Tom Petty, "Free Fallin'"
Bruce Springsteen, "I'm On Fire"
Bruce Springsteen, "Goin' Down"
Phil Collins, "In the Air Tonight"
Limp Bizkit, "Break Stuff"
Green Day, "Brain Stew"
Temple Of The Dog, "Say Hello to Heaven"
Sugar Ray, "Fly"
Local H, "Bound for the Floor"
Slipknot, "Left Behind, Wait and Bleed"
Bush, "Speed Kills"
311, "Down"
Stone Temple Pilots, "Dead and Bloated"
Soundgarden, "Fell on Black Days"
Soundgarden, "Black Hole Sun"
Soundgarden, "Blow Up the Outside World"
Metallica, "Seek and Destroy"
Metallica, "Harvester of Sorrow"
Metallica, "Enter Sandman"
Metallica, "Fade to Black"
Nine Inch Nails, "Head Like a Hole"
Godsmack, "Bad Religion"
Tool, "Intolerance"
Nena, "99 Luft Balloons/99 Red Balloons"
AC/DC, "Shot Down in Flames"
AC/DC, "Shoot to Thrill"
AC/DC, "Dirty Deeds"
AC/DC, "Highway to Hell"
AC/DC, "Safe in New York City"
AC/DC, "TNT"
AC/DC, "Hell's Bells"
Black Sabbath, "War Pigs"
Black Sabbath, "Sabbath Bloody Sabbath"
[Ozzy Osbourne], "Suicide Solution"
Kansas, "Dust in the Wind"
Led Zeppelin, "Stairway to Heaven"
The Beatles, "A Day in the Life"
The Beatles, "Lucy in the Sky with Diamonds"
The Beatles, "Ticket To Ride"
The Beatles, "Obla Di, Obla Da"
Bob Dylan/Guns N Roses, "Knockin' on Heaven's Door"
Arthur Brown, "Fire"
Blue Oyster Cult, "Burnin' For You"
Paul McCartney & Wings, "Live and Let Die"
Jimi Hendrix, "Hey Joe"
Jackson Browne, "Doctor My Eyes"
John Mellencamp, "Crumbling Down"
John Mellencamp, "Paper In Fire"
U2, "Sunday Bloody Sunday"
Boston, "Smokin"
Billy Joel, "Only the Good Die Young"
Dio, "Holy Diver"
Steve Miller, "Jet Airliner"
Van Halen, "Jump"
Queen, "Another One Bites the Dust"
Queen, "Killer Queen"
Pat Benatar, "Hit Me with Your Best Shot"
Pat Benatar, "Love is a Battlefield"
Oingo Boingo, "Dead Man's Party"
REM, "It's the End of the World as We Know It"
Talking Heads, "Burning Down the House"
Judas Priest, "Some Heads Are Gonna Roll"
Pink Floyd, "Run Like Hell"
Pink Floyd, "Mother"
John Parr, "St. Elmo's Fire"
Barry McGuire, "Eve of Destruction"
Steam, "Na Na Na Na Hey Hey"
Drifters, "On Broadway"
Shelly Fabares, "Johnny Angel"
Los Bravos, "Black is Black"
Peter & Gordon, "I Go To Pieces"
Peter & Gordon, "A World Without Love"
Elvis Presley, "(You're the) Devil in Disguise"
Zombies, "She's Not There"
Elton John, "Bennie & The Jets"
Elton John, "Daniel"
Elton John, "Rocket Man"
Jerry Lee Lewis, "Great Balls of Fire"
Santana, "Evil Ways"
Louis Armstrong, "What A Wonderful World"
Youngbloods, "Get Together"
Ad Libs, "The Boy from New York City"
Peter Paul & Mary, "Blowin' in the Wind"
Peter Paul & Mary, "Leavin' on a Jet Plane"
Rolling Stones, "Ruby Tuesday"
Simon & Garfunkel, "Bridge Over Troubled Water"
Happenings, "See You in September"
Carole King, "I Feel the Earth Move"
Zager & Evans, "In the Year 2525"
Norman Greenbaum, "Spirit in the Sky"
Brooklyn Bridge, "Worst That Could Happen"
Three Degrees, "When Will I See You Again"
Cat Stevens, "Peace Train"
Cat Stevens, "Morning Has Broken"
Jan & Dean, "Dead Man's Curve"
Martha & The Vandellas, "Nowhere to Run"
Martha & The Vandellas/Van Halen, "Dancing in the Streets"
Hollies, "He Ain't Heavy, He's My Brother"
Sam Cooke/Herman's Hermits, "Wonderful World"
Petula Clark, "A Sign of the Times"
Don McLean, "American Pie"
J. Frank Wilson/Pearl Jam, "Last Kiss"
Buddy Holly & The Crickets, "That'll Be the Day"
John Lennon, "Imagine"
Bobby Darin, "Mack the Knife"
The Clash, "Rock the Casbah"
Surfaris, "Wipeout"
Blood Sweat & Tears, "And When I Die"
Dave Clark Five, "Bits and Pieces"
Tramps, "Disco Inferno"
Paper Lace, "The Night Chicago Died"
Frank Sinatra, "New York, New York"
Creedence Clearwater Revival, "Travelin' Band"
The Gap Band, "You Dropped a Bomb On Me"
Alien Ant Farm, "Smooth Criminal"
3 Doors Down, "Duck and Run"
The Doors, "The End"
Third Eye Blind, "Jumper"
Neil Diamond, "America"
Skeeter Davis, "End of the World"
Ricky Nelson, "Travelin' Man"
Chi-Lites, "Have You Seen Her"
Animals, "We Gotta Get Out of This Place"
Fontella Bass, "Rescue Me"
Mitch Ryder, "Devil with the Blue Dress"
James Taylor, "Fire and Rain"
Edwin Starr/Bruce Springsteen, "War"
Lynyrd Skynyrd, "Tuesday's Gone"
Drowning Pool, "Bodies"
Mudvayne, "Death Blooms"
Megadeth, "Dread and the Fugitive"
Megadeth, "Sweating Bullets"
Saliva, "Click Click Boom"
P.O.D., "Boom"
Oh man you gotta be joking. Well some of those I can understand, at least for now. But "America"? "New York, New York"? If anything, they should be playing those songs more often. "Jonny Angel" and "Boy from New York City" are harmless early 60s pop-songs? What lyrics could be found in them that would be considered questionable? Wow, I can't believe we've gotten to a point where early 60s pop son lyrics can be considered questionable?
Totally absurd attempt to avoid offending almost anyone.
This rumor is FALSE! Clear Channel has not done this.
http://www.snopes2.com/inboxer/hoaxes/radio.htm
http://www.clearchannel.com/timages/article/Playlist-final.doc
Let's not let the Bill of Rights be among the victims of the terrorists. Without sounding like Mel Gibson in Braveheart, they have already taken lives. This oppressive a-cultural regime cannot be allowed to take our freedom.
The City of New York vs. Homer Simpson is one of the... best episodes ever. While I am all for good taste, and don't object to the episode disappearing for a while, I think it will come back as a classic. People are going to want to see and remember the great trade centers, and the episode displays them in a very human nature. The scene will take on a whole new meaning.
MATT-2AV
You wrote: "Let's not let the Bill of Rights be among the victims of the terrorists."
Censorship is when the government through force prevents someone from saying or writing something at their own expense. If a TV syndication group decides on its own to not broadcast something or to broadcast something edited a different way, that is not censorship; that is called freedom of speech.
No, its censorship. Why do you think networks have jop positions called censors!
Okay, you win... Because "standards and practices" people are popularly and inaccurately called censors, you can win this one...
Brilliant argument: no facts, just a rhetorical question on your part. Very good. You win.
Don't concede just yet...
The question is: who is deciding to pull the episodes?
If the owner or creator of this Simpsons episode decided not to show it anymore or have it removed from syndication, that may be his legal right. However, if the networks decided not to show it because it is now offensive (where it wasn't before), then it is no different than editing out swear words from movies because they are offensive. That is censorship.
I'm not saying they don't have the right to censorship.
The Taliban is an offensive, oppressive regime. They have no culture, and they have no humanity. They just happen to be Muslims, practicing their own evil twisted perversion of Islam. They do not believe in freedom, and they attack others who do.
It si impossible to be completely free, but it is possible to be completely without freedom, as we see in Afghanistan. My point is that once we surrender more freedom (in this case via censorship), we are giving in to the culture of oppression they wish to force on the world.
MATT-2AV
You may be correct that organizations may be "censoring" themselves for bad reasons, like fear of complaints or embarrassment about the tastelessness of the topic.
But there is only a slight difference between the creator or syndicator changing the product he offers, and the "network" which decides not to display the product as offered. There are contractual answers to all these decisions that any one of the groups in the chain leading up to a transmission, and there are ways out of the contract if not honored.
The true meaning of censorship is when the ultimate authority, the sovereign, uses violence, the threat of violence, or the threat of imprisonment to PREVENT people from freely saying, writing, or distributing what they want to say through their own resources. If the Federal Government arrested the owner of a station for showing the Simpsons, that is censorship. If the government required them to show the Simpsons unchanged, that is also censorship, since they can't speak as they want.
Basically you are saying that because the broadcasters or distributors are making an editorial decision that you dislike, that is "censorship". It is not, it is merely a decision you dislike intensely. They also don't show drawings of Bart doing it with Lisa. That is also not censorship; it is merely what they choose to say and you do not disagree.
Finally, as one last aside, old programs of the Simpsons are shown by local stations, which may be owned by "network" holding companies, but not as part of a contractual agreement with a network. Each station individually may choose to show or not show an episode, but my guess is that the distributor asked each station individually not to broadcast certain episodes for the forseeable future, just as no one hardly ever shows one really unfunny episode of "I Love Lucy" that is theoretically available but that I believe Viacom has withheld from distribution. Again, that is no censorship, just a business practice, maybe good, maybe bad, maybe stupid, but not censorship.
It's not that I like or dislike their decision. It is their right to censor, and some censorship is necessary in our society. My concern is that the decision of providing more censorship is bowing to fear. Now is a time to stand up and thumb our noses (and give the finger) at perpetrators who propone censorship in their lack of culture.
MATT-2AV
Government is not part of the definition of censorshop.
<>
Which episode is that?
"no one hardly ever shows one really unfunny episode of "I Love Lucy" that is theoretically available but that I believe Viacom has withheld from distribution."
Which episode is that?
Sorry for the delayed response. You have to look in one of those I Love Lucy books. I think it has to do with them going to the fights and dinner or something. I will look it up and report soon.
>>> The true meaning of censorship is when the ultimate authority, the sovereign, uses violence, the threat of violence, or the threat of imprisonment to PREVENT people from freely saying, writing, or distributing what they want to say through their own resources. <<<
You are being too restrictive with your definition of censorship. Webster's Collegiate Dictionary defines "censor" as "to examine in order to suppress or delete anything considered objectionable."
It need not be a government doing the censorship. A church forbidding its members from reading something it declares blasphemous is censoring the material to its membership. An isolated community which gets all its information delivered by a transportation company may find that the transportation company will not bring anything it does not approve of, which is censorship. A corporation which denies its workers the right to read pro union literature on the premises (during lunch hour) is practicing censorship. There can be a close question of whether a decision to allow information to be disseminated or not is censorship or an editorial decision. The best example is the reluctance of newspapers to print any unfavorable news about big advertisers.
Tom
I know that episode of THE SIMPSONS well; the plaza between the two towers is actually drawn very accurately, especially in a world where humans have yellow skin and four fingers.
Many cable and broadcast stations are now appropriately loathe to air any old movies based on violence in general and terrorism in particular- which certainly eliminates a lot of titles. A glance at the TV GUIDE for the week of September 8-14 reveals that the schedule is littered with DIE HARDs, LETHAL WEAPONs, SPEEDs and other glorifications of mayhem and destruction.
Then take the favorite movie of this board, THE TAKING OF PELHAM 123. Its central theme is hijacking. There's plenty of shooting and explosions, and numerous fatalities. It had fairly regular showings on TBS, TNT, USA and other basic cable networks, and on local stations during the wee hours. Stands to reason many station managers may find it inappropriate fare in light of what's happened.
For that matter, virtually EVERY movie with extensive subway footage has at its central theme crime and violence: NIGHTHAWKS, MONEY TRAIN, THE COWBOY WAY, SPEED I. This, of course, conveys the message that it's impossible to ride the subway without something horrible happening- but it's in the name of entertainment.
The number of TV shows and movies set in New York that feature generic scenes of the skyline (and Twin Towers) is beyond anyone's count. My wife has noticed this past week that the scene transitions during FRIENDS reruns- quick stock shots of the aforementioned generic skyline- appear to be abruptly cut off. There's little doubt as to what was edited.
A casual look at the ads in a typical subway car reveals that the Towers are such an accepted, enduring image that they appear everywhere, both in direct context (a Daily Metrocard Funpass ad showing a few of the attractions one can visit) and as a decorative background (NYU continuing education; the New School; innumerable booze ads).
Even the famed New York Mets logo is a city skyline featuring you know what. There's currently discussion as to whether they should be removed so as not to upset people, of to keep them as a tribute.
I don't imagine I'll be seeing one of my all-time favorites, AIRPLANE! any time soon either.
'Money Train' was on HBO last night. I watched the second half, if only to remember how goofy this movie is. Only an idiot screenwriter with absolutely no knowledge of trains and how they operate could come up with 'bleeding the brakes'.
Jim D.
Yes, Money Train is/was quite amusing in that respect.
Peace,
ANDEE
Mike, the screenwriter didn't know the difference between an automobile braking system and a train's.
BMTman
lol
When dealing with events such as the one's we'e all lived through, some censorship is not necessecarilly a totally bad thing. Most of us have come through these events unscathed physically but I'll be willing to bet that some if not most of us are suffering 'post-traumatic stress syndrome' due to living through or even the repeated viewing of those tragic events. It's hard to say what stimuli will triger the onset in each of us.
Without thinking, the other night, I threw a cassette into the VCR . I put on a movie I've enjoyed before, the entirely impossible to really happen, "Executive Decision". For those who have not seen it, it deals with a group of muslim terorists who hijack a 747 and aim it at Washington, DC, loaded with explosives and nerve gas. While watching, I found myself, instead of relaxing, becoming increasingly physically aggitated, to the point where I had to turn the movie off.
I'm not suggesting that we repeatedly watch "It's a Wonderful Life" or even assume that all action films are guilty until proven innocent. But it would be wise to choose carefully. If we've already seen the movie, we should be able to project the response but we've also got to be vigalent in overseeing what our children see. Seemingly harmless cartoons may contain just the right stimuli to upset children and have long-term effects.
For the past decade, syndicators have kept a tighter control on their program packages to stations around the country. If you see Episode X of "The Simpsons," "Frasier," "Friends" or any other syndicated show on TV on a weeknight, there's a 99.9 percent chance every other station in the country with rights to the package is airing the exact same episode(the only exceptions are where a show may air twice per night in syndication). That means if 20th Century Fox tells stations to yank Episode X that was supposed to air on Thursday because something in it is now offensive and run Episode Y instead, they can do it pretty rapidly.
Having conferred with pigs and getting two seperate Fox stations where I live now I can say for certain that the local affiliates control which episodes are shown in regard to the Simpsons.
Are they stations that air the sho9w twice a day? If you check out the listings in a TV Guide outside an area like NYC that circulates in areas covering three or even four different MSAs, it's pretty noticable that the stations that play "Seifeld" once a night, for example, are airing the same episode on the same night.
>>> it's pretty noticable that the stations that play "Seifeld" once a night, for example, are airing the same episode on the same night. <<<
This may be because the rights to air the programs are generally sold to the various stations at the same time at conventions before a "season" starts, and if all the stations run the programs in order, they will be on the same episode as each other every week.
Tom
I worked in television - satellite feed the night before. Tape rolls from Paramount at 3am, airs whenever the schedule says next day. That's how syndication works today. No more "bicycling" of tapes in the mail or UPS anymore, too risky to the stock. So everyone rolls their own tape and everybody tapes the same show. The variation among stations is when they actually have it scheduled to feed to Mr Transmisser on the hilltop or building top for the local viewers.
Network affiliates get it "live" though there's usually an earlier preview feed to cut for local promos. Been there, done that, yawn. :)
Thanks for thew fuller explanation Selkirk. I first noticed the "everyone shows the same show" phenominon about 10 years ago when "The Cosby Show" went into syndication, and as I said, unless a station airs a show twice a night, you now see the same show no matter where you are.
Yeah, satellite feeds have reduced the variety and because of copyright rules regarding "out of town stations" the good old bicycle game where if you didn't like the "Seinfeld" running tonight, you'd tune in a "distant signal" and see something else are gone. Because distant signals are too expensive for most cable systems except in rural areas between major cities, there's no need for the variety any longer.
Once the newsfeeds are done for the night though, plenty of "lease time" for transponders is available to make sure we're all watching the same Oprah or Simpsons episode. We have satellite out where we are here for business (C band for comms, KU band for feeds and KA band for television) we get to see some of the feeds for the local stations and networks pretty much a day ahead of when they show up on cable, both east and west coast feeds of the networks and on and on.
The ONE thing I'm REALLY grateful for is that we also get to see CBC, NWI, CCTV from China and on and on. The news as seen outside our borders is VERY different from what we're getting spoonfed by our own networks. But I'll leave it there. I'm just *SO* grateful that I don't have to get my information from CNN and MSNBC.
Fox news had the flag ceremony in Shay stadeum on tv yesterday and in the closing part they played Frank Snatara's New York New York...which susprised me as this song was to be "censored"....?
Fox never signed off on Clear Channel (of TX) Broadcasting's "spontaneous program director's suggestion list" ... now that the fertilizer has hit the ventilator over it, CC is too busy denying that they had anything to do with it and insist that the banned songs list was an ad hoc collaboration of their various program directors around the country. For anyone who's ever worked radio, the PD *is* the epitome of local management, but don't tell the Sales Manager. :)
I looked over the list and while maybe 3-4 songs are inappropriate given the circumstances, I sit in AMAZEMENT over what did make the list. Sure hope they pass whatever they're smoking over here. Heh.
I agree,as that song is one that reminds me of my home town better than any other,it just makes you feel good about New York..as i'll always love that town.
OK, you've got me JUICED ... as much as Frankie is what sells the New York City experience for AUSLANDERS, here's a tune that ALWAYS gave me my own yayas about New York City and I can guarantee most folks here have NEVER heard it ... spin this vinyl and it'll REALLY do it for you. Since nobody has this record, I'll detail it so you can find some DJ somewhere who can lay their hands on it for you and spin it - just tell them you're from New York and are mighty misty ...
JF MURPHY AND SALT is the band, "New York City/HOME" is the name of the tune - copyright 1973, CBS Inc - Columbia records number KC-32539, album title "The Last Illusion," Side two, cut one. I have it here in my hands. Play it loud, play it proud, Irish Jazz ... this tune is an expression of my own soul - I had this band on NEW and LIR live OFTEN because I liked their stuff - this tune is spectacular ...
Just went and checked - NEVER made it to CD's ... no MP3's. A google search turned up only its presence ... and its absence.
The tune was played REGULARLY back in '73 and '74 when I worked radio, made SURE of it ... others played it too. It's really a tune worth trying to find. I'd dump it to a WAV if I wasn't scared sheetless of the RIAA ... but this tune ... anyone native born would weep listening to it even if it weren't for the circumstances. Played it twice overnight and it STILL does it for me.
As a Simpson fan, I'm disapointed. Fortunatly, I have all those taped. I think that is going too far. Should we fight the terrorists by removing any references to WTC in movies, TV or books? In 30 years, when a mighty new WTC dominates the skyline, I want to be able to tell my grandkids about 9/11/01, and show them pictures of the old WTC. I think it will be a good lesson in humanity when they're old enough.
Same goes for movies.
Fox was intending to show "Independence Day" this past Monday but pulled it in lieu of "The Nutty Professor".
I went to the video store this past weekend and wanted to rent "Armageddon" but didn't, thinking the folks behind the counter might look at me and think I'm some kind of weirdo if I picked up a movie like that at a time like this.
With that mentality, mayber I'll be a future censor:)
Don't worry.... I have noticed that all the ads for Arnolds new movie "Colateral Damage" have disappeared from the subway.
Peace,
ANDEE
Okay, under the circumstances that have plagued this beautiful city these last few days would scare most people and cause them to hide, not speak a word. But the way the Mayor has handled the situation is excellent, he kept the city under control, and kept everything in order. I think that this would not happen under any other person. He has been there for everyone letting everyone know what was going on. This job was hard and he stood up to the challenge, and it must be reconized. So I say that he should
A) be allowed to run for mayor
B) allowed to run the city for another year
Well said.
I guess his "paranoia" about making City Hall a fortress and City Hall Station off limits was actually well founded.
I guess his "paranoia" about making City Hall a fortress and City Hall Station off limits was actually well founded.
No, it was stupid and narrow sighted. Instead of identifying the real targets, he protected the target where he happened to work. Terrorists are not going to blow up City hall. International ones go where the people/money is. Domestic ones typically go after federal government (being that people who get mad at local government just move).
I do believe it is stressful - but it's stressful for everyone. I freely admit that I do not like Rudolph at all, but I fail to see how he has extended himself over and beyond the call of duty. I believe he's being a really good humanitarian, but I'd think this to be expected of the Mayor. Also - If he didn't keep NYC informed - CNN is sure doing a good job. I believe the real heros are those folks laboring endlessly at ground zero.
Wayne
If Rudy cured cancer, some people would find fault with him.
If he cured cancer and was still the same nasty person - I'd DEFINITELY find fault with him!
Wayne
Well you have very strong adverse opinion of the man, but you would really be prejudiced if you said that he hasn't done a great job during the crisis. He has been exemplary in my opinion, and the fact is New York has made great strides under him to restore New York to its proper place as a great city. Let's fact it, before he became mayor crime was rampant, business was leaving the city, and there was a lack of confidence in the city's future on the part of many of its citizens. That is not the case with most of the populous now. Do not be surprised if some day he runs for President and wins.
Yes, you're correct. I'm the first to admit that I do not like Rudolph. However, I am aware that he has been good for NYC - but if he'd put that ego in check it could've been even better. My problem with him is that he seem to think that whatever comes out of his mouth is always right - and heaven help any poor soul (that works from him) who has the guts to stand up to him. People like Cortines and Bratton were not willing to just sit back and take whatever Rudolph said. I thought Rudolph's hiring of Bratton as police commisioner was the best thing he ever did. Bratton was more than effective - and of course when he starting getting lots of attention Rudolph suddenly had a problem with him. And look now that Rudolph is almost out of the door Bratton has expressed interested in returning to the NYPD again.
I've given the mayor credit whenever it's due. However, my "strong adverse opinion" of him comes seeing him in action. An examples of his ego and lousy attitude problem... He started cracking down on speeding motorists in NYC which I can understand. The problem is that when a Daily News reporter followed Rudolph's entourage around NYC one day and reported on how they drove along the city's streets and highways well over the speed limit - Well now 'ol Rudolph got all bent out of shape. I believe he stated that the reporter was being reckless. I guess it's OK for him - but reckless for the rest of us. Now that's some kind of example to set. It's things along those lines that make me dislike him. I won't even get started on him and the NYPD because that can go on forever.
I say again that while the mayor is doing a good job during these tragic times - I don't see where he's going over and beyond the call of duty. It's to be expected.
Wayne
It is great to disagree with someone if that person can come up a sound argument and back it up with some facts. You have done that, and I admire you for it. You made a good case for your dislike of that man. Since I have only seen him from afar and am judging him by what I've seen of New York in 1974, 1991, and 1999-2001, I have to applaud him for the great recovery the city has made. Maybe some others on this website can read what we wrote and see that it is possible to have differing opinions and still respect what others say. I look forward to exchanging posts with you. Have a great day.
Thanks Fred. I totally agree with you about providing facts to support your argument/position. You're one of the level-headed SubTalkers and it's always a pleasure to read and/or participate in posts with you. Unfortunately, some folks here resort to insults because another person may have a difference of opinion.
Wayne
business was leaving the city, and there was a lack of confidence in the city's future on the part of many of its citizens.
Not since last Tuesday. I wonder when we can look forward to the Hoboken Stock Exchange hosting the Dow? Probably after the city gets nuked by a terrorist bomb.
"I wonder when we can look forward to the Hoboken Stock Exchange hosting the Dow? Probably after the city gets nuked by a terrorist bomb."
Such a nuke would take out hoboken as well. Atlanta would be a better location for the Dow
It would be one of those weak, "dirty nukes". Not much bang, but enough to radiate much of Manhattan.
Sounds like the previous 16 years under the Duke and Wilson inn Calif
You are going from the sublime to the utterly ridiculous with that statement of yours. Wilson inherited an economy in tatters, deep in debt and business and population fleeing the state. In eight years he restored the economy to the 6th greatest in the WORLD, business coming to the state in droves, population increases from other states, and a booming treasury surplus. If you can't be fair about it, buzz off. But try and give credit where credit is due. His only mistake, and it was a bad one, was listening to those assholes who convinced him to make immigration a big issue. It was but handled so poorly by Wilson's aides that it seemed like Wilson was anti-Hispanic, which, by his record as Mayor of San Diego and as US Senator, he was certainly not. In fact, in his first run for governor he got about 48% of the Hispanic vote. I met Wilson three times and am very fond of the man. I think he was a great public servant, and pal or no pal, your attack on him just doesn't sit well with me.
If he were a Democrat with the same personality, you'd probably say he had guts and didn't mince words.
Well, let's wait and see if he becomes a Democrat. Until then I'd appreciate it if you not try to put words in my mouth.
If you like Rudolph that's fine. However, we're all entitled to our own opinion.
Wayne
PS - I'm pretty sure I've never told you my political party - so you need to step back.
More accurately, he IS allowed to run again, but he'll have to wait until 2005. The PEOPLE have already voted for term limits - TWICE - which prohibit more than two consective terms.
Should we REALLY let some terrorists reverse two public referenda, re-write the City's charter, and undermine the democratic process that America stands for? Do we OWE them such a victory? I think NOT!!!
If the American ideal is to have any meaning, then the election MUST go on as scheduled.
There, I said it.
Amen.
Seth
LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Disagree.
Despite the fact that I have numerous problems with his administration, he has indeed handled the crisis beautifully. He's a great mayor to have in a crisis. HOWEVER...
This is still a democracy, and amending the law in favor of a single person's administration sets a very dangerous prescedent. We have to carry on carrying on the city as its own democratically created laws prescribe.
Andrew
I also think it would be a bad precedent.
HOWEVER, the term limits was a lousy idea to begin with. It came about because one very rich man put his money into a campaign for term limits because he was pissed that his wonderful self didn't become mayor. He was certain that if incumbents had less advantage, he would've been mayor.
Precedent aside, I don't see why people shouldn't be able to vote for who they really want. Hold the election, let Rudy run, and if the group of turkeys in the Democratic primary can beat him, it will be the people's choice.
And that wonderful man was Ron Lauder. Where is he now????
The Rudy for Mayor movement is getting a lot of coverage, but it's sadly doubtful that anything will come of it -
http://www.cnn.com/2001/US/09/19/rec.giuliani.reelection/index.html
http://www.ny1.com/NewsBeats/politics.html
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,34645,00.html
Term limits are a great idea, because without it (given ballot access corruption in NYC) we don't have real elections in New York. You've got ten times quality people running for City Council in NYC than serve in the legislature. How come those clowns always run unopposed.
Rudy is good as some things, bad at others, like anyone else. That's why term limits work. Rudy III would be as well remembered as Koch III and Cuomo III. To tell you the truth, before the planes went down Rudy II wasn't nearly as good as Rudy I. And all the things he failed to do in eight years he would continue to fail to do it 12. Let him to out on top, for his sake and ours.
Larry, do you feel that the realization that there must be a new mayor in January has produced quality candidates?
(Larry, do you feel that the realization that there must be a new mayor in January has produced quality candidates?)
One of the criticisms launched by the lifers on the City Council is that NYC would be devastated by a 100 percent turnover of officials. That will not happen.
Giuliani will be replaced by one of the most experieced politicians in the city (Vallone/Green/Ferrer/Hevesi) or an outsider who has created a large company (Bloomberg). Today, these people hold "second tier" city offices. Not much? The best we've got.
The "second tier offices will be filled by experienced City Council members of members of the state legislature.
We all know only a few City Councilmembers have real power. There will be plenty of experienced councilmembers vying for that role.
And there will be new City Councilmembers coming in at the bottom to provide a new perspective. Yes, you have more and better people running that you would have if you had a perpetual incumbent resigning mid-term, and handing the ball off to a crony in a special election no one knows about. That's the usual way the baton was passed in NYC.
You may say that none of the existing elected officials running for new posts is worth a damn. And, in most cases, I might agree. But that has to do with a combination of clubhouse politics, restrictive ballot access rules, and absolute support for a number of vested interests that do very well out of the existing system, all of which have led to perpetual incumbency. Anyone with a brain, or a heart, has been frozen out. It isn't a democracy at all. It will take time to clean out that swamp.
You want something worse than the City of New York? Look at the State of New York. No way to get those bastards out.
Appoint Giuliani "Czar" of the rebuild. (of course, when we have pig scum to put on trail, Rudy should be given an opportunity to prosecute them. Get the hungry tusk hogs ready.
Rudy III would be much more of a success, IMHO, if it begins in
January 2006 and not January 2002. If whoever gets elected mayor shows so many flaws and weaknesses that he cannot be elected again -- especially with the Democratic/Republican voter registration ratios in NYC -- then Giuliani would have far more of a mandate returning to office four years from now than he would next year, even given his work and heightened popularity over the past 10 days.
Peronally, I'd like to see Bush appoint Rudy as special prosecutor for the Southern District of New York to handle the terrorism cases, which he could do for the next three years, and then decide if he wants to run for mayor again.
NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!! If Guilliani has his way, God knows what he'd do to the terrorists! You think "I" have some sick ideas? We all know how tough Rudy is on crime. He'd crucify the terrorists naked, upside down in public! It WOULD be fun to see.< g >
Yes, Giuliani has handled the emergency situation very well.
That still doesn't mean that he is the right man to run the whole city government for the next year (or four), and it doesn't mean that the results of two referendums on the term limits question, conducted in less emotionally strained times, should simply be put aside.
But the next mayor, whoever he is, should strongly consider appointing Rudy Giuliani to be Director of (or Deputy Mayor for) Emergency Management, or something along those lines. That is a job where his skills could continue to be used effectively, but without antagonizing whole segments of the population.
Oh, HELL Yeah! RUDY! RUDY!
If you type into Microsoft word "Q33NY" (Q33 the number of one of the planes used in the attack) and then change the font to wingdings, it displays an airoplane, two towers, and the I hate Jews symbols. Please try it yourself!
And my wife thinks I have too much free time. ;-)
Towers, or pieces of paper with lines symbolizing writing?!
If you type into Microsoft word "Q33NY" (Q33 the number of one of the planes used in the attack) and then change the font to wingdings, it displays an airoplane, two towers, and the I hate Jews symbols.
Those "tower" symbols look a lot more like sheets of paper to me.
Yes, they are supposed to be pieces of paper, but the visual effect of two of them together looks a lot more than coincidental.
I have, and those "two towers" look like sheets of paper with lines representing writing to me.
There is a skull with crossbones in front of the Jews (two triangles) symbol.
Wingdings. a funny name for a font, but what is its purpose?
Railfan Pete.
Wingdings. Cliff's regular order at Cheers.
I presume the name was picked after some guy had a bunch of symbols he felt like putting together and calling a font, and didn't quite have a name for it until he looked at the menu of a local establishment and shouted "Eureka!" Anyone else have a better theory (or the truth?).
Wingdings = WIN(dows) + DING(bats)
Microsoft needed a knockoff of Zaf Dingbats (the Mac's standard icon font) for Windows. I've found the scissors symbol useful. I
think that's why it was inclded with the MacOS - to allow you to slip that stuff in. Remember, on the Mac, there is no such thing as text mode, everything is handled as graphic. there are numerous OS routines for handling text, but the actual nitty gritty internals, text is treated just like graphics. I believe QuickDraw (the origional MacOS graphics routines) allows you to use the various graphics drawing modes on text. I don't remember. When TrueType was added in the early 90's, support for it was instant and backwards - earlier applications could use TT fonts.
TypeType is also NOT like Postscript. The latter is really more of a programming language (and yes, you *can* do weird stuff in PostScript). The former is simpy a font technology. The NExT machines and I think Mac OS X use(d) display postscript, as did Solaris (I think). Which is kinda cool. I think OS X also uses pdf as a replacement for the unbiquatous text file
Postscript and Postscript font technology are different things. Postscript is a page description language, like PCL, HTML etc. Postscript Type1 (scalable) and Type3 (raster) are font technologies much like Truetype or some others.
Arti
Dingbats are (in *real* printers lingo) pieces of movable type with any sort of non-letter design on them.
The various lead type foundries that made such things (as well as fonts) held copyrights very closely. This is why you see a variety of names for fonts that look the same to your eyes, but are quite different enough if you are a law judge.
Elias
Correct 'Dingbats' are exactly that.
Working in the graphics field, we work with these all the time.
Dingbats (aka Wingdings) are used whenever a graphic element is needed in the place of -- or most often -- to enhance a block (or blocks) of text.
It makes it easier so you don't have to draw them yourself, particularly if you are not artistically inclined.
BMTman
There's also a font (I think it's Latin) where every single letter shows a bunch of rectangles. Nothing else.
So when I type in a sentence, all I see is a lot of rectangles on the page. What is this font's purpose?
: )
Railfan Pete.
That font is only used if you are using the Unicode character set.
OH MY GOD!
Could be a coincidence, but then again....
Allright. With a clearer head...
There was no particular reason to include "NY" in that phrase. And "NY" has always resulted in "Skull and Crossbones/Star of David".
And are we so sure that "Q33" was the number of one of the planes?
Andrew
Q33 is the bus that goes to LaGuardia Airport.
Q33 is the bus that goes to LaGuardia Airport.
A relatively obscure point, and not particularly significant. (None of the planes had taken off from LaGuardia.) It basically means nothing unless you start from the point of view of the "wingdings" urban legend.
Andrew
The symbols are (and I am kicking myself for even wasting my time with this):
AIRPLANE, SHEET OF TYPED PAPER, SHEET OF TYPED PAPER, INTERNATIONAL POISON SYMBOL, STAR OF DAVID.
Where do you get sheets of paper with the WTC, and the Poison symbol for hate?
If you have plenty of free time, go out to the "M"ary on Sea Beach Fred's favorite line, and photograph some Slants at the 65th Street cut for us.
Oh C'mon it looks like the towers...
I don't understand the critical replies. The "pieces of paper" do indeed appear to represent the towers. The whole thing looks like too much to be a coincidence.
Wait, the Q33 is the bus from Jackson Heights to LaGuardia. Maybe they meant to crash a Franchise bus into the WTC.
In truth there are lots of coincidences in life if you look for them. This one really seems to have no meaning, especially since I do not believe that United or American Airlines uses the letter Q in its flight designations. They use UA and AA.
Besides, let's say this was "not a coincidence". Does that mean that the creator of the Windings Font was sending us a message when it was created 11 years ago? I doubt it. Getting meaning from this type of coincidence also falls under the name "superstition." Please don't get too worked up about this. There are more useful things to get worked up about.
The fact that Q33 was not one of the numbers for the planes involved shouldn't dissuade you from believing this.
Please see http://www.snopes2.com/spoons/fracture/wingding.htm for more details.
I typed in N334AA (the registration for one of the american airlines planes) and it showed skull and crossbones, 5 buildings (They look like 5 sheets of paper), and two peace signs. See for your self
Where you done this?
Microsoft Word. Type in the desired text, then change its font to "wingdings."
On Microsoft word (duh).
I believe those are victory signs, not peace signs.
- Lyle Goldman
This mmight take a little typing on your computer but it would be really nice to know the new M Sea Beach route from Metropolitan Avenue to Stillwell. Can anyone print the new route for me. Needless to say I have somewhat of a personal interest in the Sea Beach. And does anyone know how long my train is going to be the M before it goes back to N?
Don't you have access to the TA web site, Fred? You can see the new subway map there. Essentially, it's the N route from Coney Island via tunnel to Broad Street, then the M route. All stops.
Unless they have some pressing reason to change it, I imagine the "M"-Sea Beach will last until the lower Broadway BMT reopens--they seem to be saying weeks.
(Unless they have some pressing reason to change it, I imagine the "M"-Sea Beach will last until the lower Broadway BMT reopens--they seem to be saying weeks.)
If then. The Downtown crawl is worse than useless if you're going to Midtown. The Broadway route from the Montigue was preferred to the Broad Street route because the World Trade Center and World Financial Center were there.
Not now. The current arrangement provides better access to what's left of Downtown from Brooklyn. It's nice to go into Broad Street station and know you have less than a ten minute wait (for the M) to get to DeKalb.
Were it not for the Manny B mess, if the MTA received enough suggestions from Brooklynites to increase Nassau St. service, they could do that after all the tunnels are back in service. But so long as only half the bridge is open, it can't be done.
If Corlandt and Rector remain closed even though the line can be reopened, what good is the line ? Canal and points north are accessible by Bridge trains, Montague tunnel service to Nassau Street ought to be preferred with stops an Broad, Fulton, and Chambers.
Reopening the Church Street tunnel allows BMT service to both Whitehall St. City Hall and midtown Manhattan to increase, although with those stations closed, the MTA could consider the option of restoring either N or R serivce along Church street and keep either the J or M operating on Fourth Ave. or Sea Beach in Brooklyn, to provide Wall-Broad St. and Fulton-Nassau St. service while Rector and Cortlandt remain closed.
We're heading for a fiscal crisis, and half of Lower Manhattan isn't there, so I wonder if it's worth reopening Whitehall/Rector/Cortlandt/City Hall and the tracks that serve them. Money is needed elsewhere.
Everyone going to Midtown would be better off on the bridge, via Canal. Having all those trains running through the Montigue Tunnel to and from Broad Street means that the Nassau Line is a good bet for travel to Brooklyn. The N/R line, if opened, would probably have very few passengers.
It is necessary to get Chambers Street open if the World Financial Center is open -- you'll have to walk down those streets north of the WTC to get there, since the WTC will be blocked by debris and then construction. But otherwise, the new map seems to match the new Downtown, at least until the WTC is rebuilt. All we have is the east.
I agree. Even if they could run thru Whitehall to City Hall, what good is it without the two intermediate stations ? I'd run a rush hour shuttle between Ninth Avenue and Whitehall Street, but beyond that, for the next couple of years, it's an exercise in rail preservation to send trains further up, and nothing more.
Everyone going to Midtown would be better off on the bridge, via Canal. Having all those trains running through the Montigue Tunnel to and from Broad Street means that the Nassau Line is a good bet for travel to Brooklyn. The N/R line, if opened, would probably have very few passengers.
You might be surprised to learn that people with trip origins other than Brooklyn also use the N&R to get to midtown, e.g. people from Staten Island. What is your thinking with no shuttle and not West Side service - a moving sidewalk along State St to Bowling Green?
On the downtown side, the N&R are also used by riders from Queens, the upper East Side and the Bronx to get to lower Manhattan. The 2nd Ave Subway planned to reverse the express and local tracks on the BMT. The upper East Siders were supposed to take the new subway to the Financial District via the 63rd St and the rerouted BMT express tracks. If you believe that the tracks on Church St between City Hall and Whitehall are not necessary, then it is equally difficult to justify the 2nd Ave Subway whose justification depends on these tracks' existence.
then it is equally difficult to justify the 2nd Ave Subway whose justification depends on these tracks' existence.
The Canal Street switch was stupid. The original Second Avenue plan had Upper East Siders choosing between one service that would take them to West Midtown via Broadway, or to the Financial District by staying on 2nd. The Stubway is a stupid half-assed solution. The Second Avenue Subway has to be planned using the WHOLE ass.
The Cortlandt/Rector areas on the west side just lost 100,000 customers. I don't see the need to reopen that portion of the line for 6 months. The W goes to Astoria, and the Q goes to Queens Blvd. The J & M go down 4th Avenue. The N & R are redundant.
2nd Avenue subway or stubway has got to be the last thing on everyone's mind right now.
(The Cortlandt/Rector areas on the west side just lost 100,000 customers. I don't see the need to reopen that portion of the line for 6 months. The W goes to Astoria, and the Q goes to Queens
Blvd. The J & M go down 4th Avenue. The N & R are redundant.
2nd Avenue subway or stubway has got to be the last thing on everyone's mind right now. )
Right. Why not wait until the Towers are rebuilt? We're facing a tremendous budget crisis, with lots of vested interests who have guaranteed access to City and State funds by law. There is no right to transit.
As it is now, there are huge increases in City Medicaid spending and Pension contributions mandated by the state already approved, along with a huge cut in tax revenues and (probably) state aid coming, and rising debt service. Those over age 65, politically, can neither be made to pay an equal share of tax nor have any reductions in services. Neither can people in the suburbs (on the service side anyway -- they already pay lots of taxes). It's going to be bad for anyone else.
The bridhe problem is structural, just as the Church Street tunnel problem may be strctural -- we'll just have to see what the engineers say a week or two from now.
If both lines are out for extended periods, then it would make sense for the city to use some of that $20 billion to get the DOT to put a rush job on fixing the Manhattan Bridge's problems so that Sixth Ave.-DeKalb service can be restored. The B/D lines could then return to Brooklyn, and the N and Q could go back to being the Broadway expresses, with a shortened R train running from Continental Ave. to Canal St. and the M or J trains handling the Lower Manhattan connection full-time via the Nassau Loop and running to 95th St.-Fourth Ave.
But if the N/R is repairable in a short time, then that's where the work should be done first, because is does incerease train service to midtown -- even if it is a roundabout route -- and it also would be the only line serving Staten Island Ferry passengers at Whitehall, unless the MTA opts to divert some of the No. 5 trains to the South Ferry loop.
Bowling Green is only 2 blocks fro the Ferry, so there is really no need to open to South Ferry \
It's great to see all you guys out there talking about my Sea Beach. It shows me that you all have a lot of class. Keep the posts coming. You're looking better all the time. But I will be happy when the Sea Beach goes back to being the N train.
Next stop on my Sea Beach, 20th Avenue
More to do on Bay Parkway, Delis, Italian Food, Marlboro Theater, that little fr.Berryville Brook Lynn Grand Parents
When the Montague tunnel was built, did it originally just connect to the Broadway line, did the Nassau st. line connection come later?
And the junction is actually under the river.
1.) The Nassau St. connection wasn't completed until 1931, 13 years after the Whithall-Church St. link was built.
2.) Yes, the connection is underwater, somewhere near the docking slips for the old Governor's Island ferry terminal (which was also the SI Ferry terminal when the link was built).
I would bet that Rector (Trinity) is much more likely to be opened before Cortlandt is. The only station that would probably stay closed is Cortlandt due to the cleanup/rebuilding operations.
wayne
Look at the map we got, combine the N South of 36th St and the M above 36th St
My faked up rollsign:
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
------Metropolitan Ave, Queens
(M)------------------------
------Stillwell Ave/Coney Island, Brooklyn
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
(via Myrtle Ave, Broadway (Brooklyn) El, Nassau St, Montague Tunnel, Sea Beach. Local all the way.)
:-) Andrew
Due to a request from the Department of Defense, the DC MetroRail will open at 5 AM on a temporary basis until further notice. Extra MetroBuses will also be running. Metro also reports an increase in ridership over the past week as well as increases in parking at Franconia-Springfield Station.
Pentagon is still open but an ID is required to exit. Buses operate to Pentagon City. National Airport is open.
I hope this applies to the weekend as well. WMATA not starting until 8:00am on those days is an unwarranted slap to working people. Rail transit is a public utility, and should be available 24/7. Case closed.
Agreed same with BART in the Bay Area, Sundays does not start until after 8A
They had to reopen the airport sooner or later...
Had to?
From MTA Website- Wall Street on the 4/5 now open!
Yes! This was my old stop when I worked at 80 Bway. some years back.
The (Q) was running 90% R-32 today. I could tell that many R-32 trains were from Jamaica because:
1. There were phase I / II mixes on the Q, only Jamaica yard has both types.
2. 3730 was on one of the Q trains.
3. The E was running mostly R-46 (from the R), thus the R-32s at Jamaica were freed up.
4. The only R-32s I saw on the E were from Pitkin (phase Is with the old floors).
I counted two trains of R-68s and one R-68A on the (Q). That's it for anyting other than R-32.
The R-68s are being limited on the Q probably because of the limited service diversion options -- if somthing happens to stall a train on the express and/or bridge tracks between DeKalb and Canal, a Q train of 60-foot R-32 cars behind it on the Brighton line could be diverted onto the Nassau Street line if necessary. Without the Montague-Church Street option to get to and from the Broadway line, a Q train of 75-foot R-68s is pretty much stuck in the same situation, though in Manhattan either the R-32s or the R-68s could be turned back uptown past the Canal St. local station tracks.
You've just put a smile on the face of the Train Dude ... someone loves those Hippos besides him.
Mr t
He put a smile on mine too. The Q got its Brightliners back.
What is the diamond Q running now, the R68s? If not, where have they all gone?
The "diamond" Q service is running slant R-40s, as usual, and I think someone reported seeing a train of R-32s. The "circle" Q is running R-32s (Coney Island and Jamaica) and R-68As. It had been running R-68s, but supporting what the original poster stated, I didn't see any today.
David
As of this afternoon, the circle-Q is running a mix of R-32's and R-68A's (I'll take your word that they're not R-68's -- I can't tell them apart from the outside and I haven't memorized the car numbers). I saw one train of R-68's (R-68A's?) on the diamond-Q, but otherwise I saw nothing but the usual R-40's.
I also had my first VAKTRAK sighting, at Parkside (all southbound service was express). South of Sheepshead Bay, someone should prune those trees pretty soon -- that clunking can't be good for the trains.
I just received word that Central Electric Railfans' Association (CERA), headquartered in Chicago, is planning a long weekend event in New York next Memorial Day weekend, May 24 through May 28, 2002. The highlights are:
Friday, 05/24: Tour of Brooklyn's Heritage Trolley Project with a ride on an Oslo tram and a PCC. Evening May CERA meeting at NYCT's training center in Brooklyn.
Saturday, 05/25: Charter trip on Newark Subway using PCC #6. Hudson Bergen inspection trip. Evening meeting at NYCT training center.
Sunday, 05/26: Charter trip on Bronx els using single-unit Redbirds. In deference to New York sensibilities, I didn't say "L".
Monday, 05/27: Charter trip on ELs On Brooklyn and Queens using Lo-V or Triplex equipment.
Tuesday, 05/28: Tour of Shore Line Trolley Museum.
It sounds like an exciting, full weekend. CERA can be reached at PO Box 503, Chicago, IL 60690, or CERA@flash.net. The website, cera-chicago.org, seems to be a work in progress, as it didn't have this news when I just checked.
Disclaimer: this is not a paid CERA commercial, though I am a member, and have been since 1954.
Many of us at Shoreline would love to take you guys for a ride :-)
Mr t
I was listening to 1010 wins on the way home from PA today, and heard that N/R would be running but skipping 2 stops (can't remember which 2, but I'd assume Cortlandt and Rector). That contradicts all the current info from the MTA, but generally 1010 is correct so that surprised me. Anyone happen to know if there's any truth to this rumor?
As of 12:01 AM September 20, it's not true. That doesn't mean that it will NEVER happen, just that it's not happening now.
David
I too heard this rumor over WINS 1010 AM this morning also.
#3 West End Jeff
They are or are in the process of starting some sort of vibration testing and they will also make sure it does not hinder rescue/cleanup efforts. So it could be sooner than first thought.
MTA is going to say what is happening NOW. The trains WILL run again. It's just a matter of time. But people who go to the website want to know what is running now.
Hi there
I meant to post this weeks ago, but why is the 63rd Street Shuttle running with 10 cars of R32's...wasn't the original plan call for 8 cars...if they are all running ten cars, they are exceeding their assigned share of R32's....just curious...
Also, they really got to put the Q express to better use in Manhattan...there is such a jam in Bklyn bound service between 14th & Canal...the trains are just sitting outside Canal waiting to get in...the crowding isn't pretty...I guess the Q & W had to absord everybody (the Broadway crowd and the old 6th Ave crowd)....
Jonathan
SeaBeach53
The first few days of the 63rd Street Shuttle, it ran with 6-car R-32s. While the 63rd Street trains were not crowded, F trains were packed. It was reasoned that this was because almost nobody coming off the B and D knew the 63rd Street Shuttle trains existed, and that even those who did see the trains didn't feel like repositioning themselves on the platforms to reach them. To ease crowding on the F trains by making the 63rd Street trains more identifiable, the 63rd Street trains were extended to 10 cars.
David
One problem, IMO, stems from the overusage of the S moniker. I spoke to someone who hadn't ridden the subway in months but last week tried to get from Manhattan to Brooklyn on the D. From her comments, it was clear that she thought that the shuttle train that pulled in across the platform from her D would have taken her to Grand Central.
Most pax have no clue how the tracks are layed out.
Yes, I know. She was sure that if the D C/R had made an announcement at 42nd, she would have been able to change to the Q there on the same platform, but at 34th the D pulled onto the shuttle track to turn around (her words) so she had to cross over to the other side (or so she thought) to get to the Q. I tried to convince her that, at 42nd, the Q was a full avenue block away, but I don't know if it worked.
Trust me, it didn't work.
Here IS why the S was increased from 6 cars to 10 cars. In the first days of the flip, it was clear that the crowding on the 34th & 6th IND platform was more than anticipated. People got off the B or D or F and were waiting for the S. Often by the time they realized the S was in the station, they were in no position to catch it. There was simply too much pushing, shoving and holding of doors. It was clear after the first day that if the S were not made 10-cars, there would be significant and continuous delays on the F or a serious accident.
Link: PATH workers key in averting greater disaster
PATH workers key in averting greater disaster
JERSEY CITY, N.J. -- Thousands of New Jersey commuters might have been among those missing in the World Trade Center disaster if PATH officials had not diverted some trains and evacuated others that were bound for the financial center.
Among workers on PATH are those represented by UTU Local 1413 in Jersey City, N.J.
About 15 minutes after the first plane pierced one of the towers, passengers on two trains -- one from Hoboken, one from Newark -- were evacuated out of the trade center station and through the concourse, said Mike DePallo, PATH's director and general manager.
Another train from Hoboken that already had left New Jersey at the time of the crash, entered the trade center station, but passengers were kept inside the train, which looped around and returned to Jersey City, PATH spokesman Steve Coleman said. That third train was not mentioned in a Port Authority statement released Saturday recounting Tuesday's events.
PATH prevented other trains in New Jersey from heading toward the doomed towers, DePallo said.
"Our folks did a great job," DePallo said. "I hate to think of what might have happened if everybody wasn't on top of it."
No trains with people onboard were left under the trade center or in the tunnels, according to Port Authority officials.
Prior to the crashes, PATH trains generally ran every 3 to 6 minutes to the trade center from Newark, Jersey City, and Hoboken during the morning rush hours until about 9:30 a.m.
On Tuesday, events moved quickly after the first plane crash at about 8:45 a.m., according to DePallo and Port Authority officials:
The PATH control center in Journal Square in Jersey City received three reports of the first explosion at the trade center.
Officials radioed trains on the New Jersey side that had not reached the Hudson River tunnels and stopped them or sent them back to their previous stops.
They also contacted conductors on two trains -- a seven-car train from Hoboken and an eight-car train from Newark -- pulling into the trade center platform. They told them to evacuate the passengers -- both on the trains and on the platforms.
Crews and terminal supervisors led them out of the station, up escalators and stairs to the concourse of the trade center. Port Authority police officers and PATH employees escorted them out of the building. As many as 3,000 passengers were on the two trains and on the platforms.
A third train from Hoboken approached the station sometime before 9:20 a.m. But the train's crew did not open the doors. Instead they circled around to take the train back to the Exchange Place stop in Jersey City.
Above ground, passengers approaching the station were blocked by police from entering. The remaining PATH workers boarded one of the trains in the World Trade Center station and went to New Jersey. The second empty train was marked "out of service" and left behind. An empty train, also not mentioned in Port Authority's official account, came in from New Jersey to pick up remaining PATH employees at the trade center and returned them to Exchange Place.
"We have frequent service during that time," DePallo said. "Fortunately, we prevented trains from coming in."
Tony Bauer of Summit, a controller for Thomson Financial, was driving on the turnpike to the Grove Street stop in Jersey City when he saw smoke from the first tower, but said he didn't think it was anything "super serious." At the station, he was told they were diverting trains to 33rd Street in Manhattan because of a fire.
"They must have reacted immediately, so I'm very happy," Bauer said.
Kevin, a Wall Street trader from Dover, agrees. Kevin, who asked that his last name not be used, was on a train heading to New York when it was stopped at the Grove Street station. Passengers were told there had been an "accident" at the trade center and that to get to Manhattan they would have to take the PATH train headed for 33rd Street.
"Looking back, thank God they stopped that," Kevin said. "I could have been getting in when the second one hit."
They should have used the PATH trains as an escape vector for people in the conourse. As it turned out that was the safest place to be. I wonder how many of those that were "evacuated" above ground were killed or injured by falling debris. As for the last train I would have had the doors keyed open (for use as an emergency shelter) and possibly asked for an engineer to voluenteer to stay behind until the last possible moment so that nobody could become trapped in the station.
>>>>>>>>As for the last train I would have had the doors keyed open (for use as an emergency shelter) and possibly asked for an engineer to voluenteer to stay behind until the last possible moment so that nobody could become trapped in the station.
In other words if you were the supervisor, you would have asked someone to risk being crushed to death and/or be trapped in the station without food & water.
Funny how you would have ASKED someone else to stay behind as you were hottailing it to Jersey. If that had really concerned you, then YOU could have stayed behind. And I think that we all know how you'd be feeling right about now.
I'm taking the roll of the dispatcher guy in Jersey City.
I just don't think it made sence to force people off the train into a disaster area and then running the trains empty back to New Jersey. From the earlier reports I heard that PATH officials evacuated everyone on the platform onto the PATH trains. I don't know which reports are true though.
The problem is you cannot use an incoming train to evacuate the people who are on that train, for these are Lemmings, and they will go where they want to go, wheter *it* is there or not. Once the doors were opened, you could not have kept them on the train.
That last train did not open its doors, and so people could not get off to become trapped. An empty train was sent in to evacuate the station.
The crews of the other trains (the ones who as had opened the doors, were correct to escort people out of the buildings. Because as I have said, you cannot turn lemmings around. They must go in the direction that they wanted to go.
Elias
And the lemming instinct may have saved people's lives.
After the first tower was hit, some people in the other tower started to evacuate. Following usual procedure, they announced over the PA "There was an incident in the other tower but everything's under control, return to your offices." Some people went back and were doomed, but some decided "Let's get outside first and then find out what's going on."
I was driving on Linden Blvd when I saw the old redbirds and R-62A's with the 1 on the route. I know the 1 will be going to New Lots indefinitely. I noticed that there were 2200 cars that are regularly assigned to 240th St. yards now with the Livonia blue stripe markings. What's going on, I guess that the 240th St. cars are now going to Livonia and the Pelham Cars are going to 240th St?
I have been following the service changes from afar...and I know I am a little slow in reacting to this...but with the 1,2, and 3 changes, now there is no express service on the West Side at night now after the 3 stops?
Sure seems that way.
There hasn't been express service on the West Side at night for a few years. The 2 became local at night to provide ten-minute headways at local stations in Manhattan. Around the same time, the late night 6 was extended south of 125th (until then, only the 4 provided local service) and the E became local in Queens at night.
Hmmm..must have been a while since i rode home to my parents on the IRT late at night. If i were at a bar on the upper West Side and would want to go to Grand Army Plaza, having to take a local the whole way would really suck :)
Aren't there any bars in Bklyn?
I think someone posted a day or two ago that the local takes eight minutes longer than the express. Big deal. And if your bar on the Upper West Side were at a local stop, you'd probably save time since you'd only have to wait for one train.
I'd suggest to get so drunk that you'll pass out and the time would fly :-)
Arti
ok this is pretty much an impossible question to answer very acurately but the people on this board are pretty good with subway related stuff so i'm sure you can help me.
i have to be at work at 7:15 at the new backup facility for the ny commodities exchange in long island city. my old building 4 wtc no longer exists. ok i have to get from 86th st and 4th ave(former R station now J) to either court square on the G, 45th rd courthouse square on the 7 or 23st - ely ave on the E & F. whats the quickest way and how long(approx) would that take to get there at 7:15 on a weekday.
i think my best bet is J to 36th. W to 42nd. 7 to 45th rd courthouse square. i assume since i am leaving so early and the w is local and its 3 trains its gonna take me an hour and a half easily. please tell me i am wrong and it will take less time. please!!!
thanks in advance for your help!
You might be able to do it in an hour if you make the connections. Years ago, when the R used to run from Astoria to 95th St (all local), that took an hour.
It takes 45 minutes from Ditmars to Whitehall alone. I doubt it took just 15 minutes to get to 95 st.
=)
All I can tell you is that when I went to Fort Hamilton for my draft physical in 1970, it took exactly 1 hour from Ditmars to 95th. Those were the good old days.
Further info - today's schedule shows some Ns going from Ditmars to DeKalb in 48 minutes. The R runs from DeKalb to 95th in 24 minutes. That equals 72. Say it took me 62 minutes to get from Ditmars to 95th on the RR in 1970. It's certainly beleivable that today's schedule would be 10 minutes longer with the general slowdown in service that has occurred.
Ok I'll buy that notion
=)
Other options to consider:
J to 9th Street, F to 23rd-Ely.
J to Essex, F to 23rd-Ely.
J to Pacific, 4/5 or 2/3 to 42nd, 7 to CHSq.
J to Fulton, 4/5 or 2/3 to 42nd, 7 to CHSq. (Note: From the northbound J, the 4/5 is more easily accessible. To the southbound J, the 2/3 is more easily accessible.)
J to Fulton, E to 23rd-Ely (or, if it comes first, A to 42nd, then E from there, or A to W4, then F downstairs).
If you have an unlimited MetroCard:
J to Pacific, walk to G, G to CSq.
From 86/4 take the J or the M to 9St. Change for the F to Bergin St and Change again for the G to Court Square. I admit it's 3 trains. But at least you won't have to go thru Manhattan. Try a travel time of 1 hour for the first day than adjust it for the next day.
I think your way is the best way.
Ok! Let's start with the updates again. As I mentioned to George C., the following has occurred:
R-142s 6701-05 were delivered tonight.
6696-6700 and 6706-6710 are at the East, probably being readied for testing. These were delivered in the last 2 or 3 weeks.
6391-6400 were transferred from an unknown location to the East tonight.
About the R-142As, 7481-85 is currently coupled to 7491-95. Thanks to George for solving this mystery.
Until Later....
Stef
Has anyone seen Car 6688?
-Stef
Yeah, some damn fool hijacked it to Connecticut. :)
Shhhhh ... it's under a big blue tarp, mums the word.
Mr t
Or flew it to Cuba.:-)
I could've sworn i saw this car last week in the barn at E180.
Probably no more R142A deliveries for a little while.
The city is not giving out any oversize load permits because
of the continuing efforts in lower Manhattan.
I think the TA has an open permit so that the new cars can be delivered for the time beening.
Robert
Either that, or the R - 142As will have to be loaded onto freight trains at Pt. Elizabeth for the trip to Yonkers, and then from there loaded onto frieght trains again to get to Brooklyn.
Thats another way of doing it. It might take alittle more time but this way they will get though.
Robert
now has anyone seen 6586-6590/6346-6350 lately and i thik 6721-6730 will be the last for the 2.does anyone now where 6391-6400 where going
r142man
jay 2002
Outside of what Cars are being assigned for extended 1 Service to New Lots, trains operating on the 3 Line have apparently gone to 10 Cars.
I spotted a train of R-62As in the middle of the PM Rush as a 10 car train was heading north on the 2 towards East 180th Street.
This also leads to another question regarding #3 layups. A 3 Train came up in the middle of the PM Rush with passengers as well as one train shortly after nidnight. Do the layups now carry passengers?
On the 1: 1671-75 is there, I don't know if anyone made mention of it. The Pelham Stickers haven't been changed yet, so this maybe a recent transfer.
-Stef
Are the railfan windows on the 10-car 3 trains blocked by cabs or do we still have a little while longer to look out the front?
There's still time to look out the window, at least for a moment.
-Stef
I didn't see those cars when I was there in August and September. The only Pelham cars I remember displaced anywhere unusual was the 1670 set which had red markers and I saw 2 or 3 Pelham sets on the 3 in the 1800s.
I wonder why they chose now of all times to put 10-car trains on the 3?
Keep in mind that some sets from the 3 line also have to be used for 1 train service, so 10 Car Trains are a must. Also, the 3 is the only express available, so an extra car might be needed to accomodate the passengers. This is speculation, but it would seem to make sense. Still, the crush load on the 3 may be light, even in the AM/PM Rush Hours.
-Stef
They should have used the PATH trains as an escape vector for people in the conourse. As it turned out that was the safest place to be. I wonder how many of those that were "evacuated" above ground were killed or injured by falling debris. As for the last train I would have had the doors keyed open (for use as an emergency shelter) and possibly asked for an engineer to voluenteer to stay behind until the last possible moment so that nobody could become trapped in the station.
>>>>>>>>As for the last train I would have had the doors keyed open (for use as an emergency shelter) and possibly asked for an engineer to voluenteer to stay behind until the last possible moment so that nobody could become trapped in the station.
In other words if you were the supervisor, you would have asked someone to risk being crushed to death and/or be trapped in the station without food & water.
Funny how you would have ASKED someone else to stay behind as you were hottailing it to Jersey. If that had really concerned you, then YOU could have stayed behind. And I think that we all know how you'd be feeling right about now.
I'm taking the roll of the dispatcher guy in Jersey City.
I just don't think it made sence to force people off the train into a disaster area and then running the trains empty back to New Jersey. From the earlier reports I heard that PATH officials evacuated everyone on the platform onto the PATH trains. I don't know which reports are true though.
The problem is you cannot use an incoming train to evacuate the people who are on that train, for these are Lemmings, and they will go where they want to go, wheter *it* is there or not. Once the doors were opened, you could not have kept them on the train.
That last train did not open its doors, and so people could not get off to become trapped. An empty train was sent in to evacuate the station.
The crews of the other trains (the ones who as had opened the doors, were correct to escort people out of the buildings. Because as I have said, you cannot turn lemmings around. They must go in the direction that they wanted to go.
Elias
And the lemming instinct may have saved people's lives.
After the first tower was hit, some people in the other tower started to evacuate. Following usual procedure, they announced over the PA "There was an incident in the other tower but everything's under control, return to your offices." Some people went back and were doomed, but some decided "Let's get outside first and then find out what's going on."
Just wanted to let everyone know that my prayers are still with everyone - as it turns out, I've lost 16 friends and former coworkers down yonder and frankly, I've been lurking but ignoring subtalk lately as a result of the "nuke 'em until they glow" that's been going on here as well as a family tragedy on this end that occurred last Thursday. My wife's dad died last Thursday suddenly and we've had to deal with the funeral. He died in Danville, PA and we had to bring him back to his ancestral home in Meriden, CT for the funeral.
I got within a few miles of Branford but of course, dropping by under the circumstances was completely out of the question for obvious reasons. Between that funeral and several memorial services, I'm just way beyond the "kill, kill, kill" mentality and have once again found my own religious background precludes the hatred I've seen in way too many places.
So if folks can bear with me, I have nothing to say on the "war front" and will avoid the issue entirely. When all this lands directly in your own lap, it's really hard to look at the situation so absolutely. Suffice it to say that I hope our government does what we pay them to, protecting this nation, and that justice will prevail and the bastards who did this are given the justice they have earned by their own hand. That's all I'm ever going to say.
It's time in my own mind for us to show those who would cause us to cower that life goes on and that those of us here will share in my desire that we show them that no matter what they do, we will continue onward. I'll merely say that God is love and where there is no love, there is no God. Those who preach hatred are unGodly and I'll leave it there. So I'll leave it as:
TO ALL TRAINS -->
I envy your wisdom in avoiding subtalk the past week, but I also have to give you my deep condolences. Sounds like really too much misfortune for anyone to bear.....I'm so sorry.
Seth
Thanks for the kind words ... like any other "bad thing" that happens, I've been fortunate in finding new strength in the "anything can happen week" that I've personally been through. I am less tolerant of nonsense than before and have found that I can actually turn off the television and ignore the propaganda wagon and wait for my own truth to emerge. I've also rediscovered my lack of fear of death. So for me, despite the hell of this past week, I have a newfound appreciation for LIFE ... and that ain't such a bad outcome. Always been my personal motto, "Never take life too seriously, and beware of those who do." Moving out of the city years ago disconnected that cutout on me. It's working again and I'm grateful for it. Makes me appreciate even all this a whole lot more than had I not met it face to face.
As to the wisdom angle, I have been lurking in the last couple of days (I couldn't get here prior but did dig back a bit since I was mobile and don't have a laptop) and must admit there were a number of things that got my Irish up here and there but at the same time was wise enough to just let it blow by. I'll just say that if we're motivated by hatred and revenge, then what happened last week was merely the opening sonata ... it lowers us to the mentality of those who did us in the first place.
The whole world has changed and we can either change ourselves with it or be buried by it. I pray we can all do better than we have been. The results of the global realities we have all created are on display downtown. The question then becomes what are we going to do about it that increases rather than decreases the peace. The current propaganda spew is anything but the answer, many eyes for an eye and many teeth for a tooth has served us poorly. And here I am promising that I wasn't going to do this. To save my sorry arse from the war foamers, let me clarify that we can indeed justly kick the appropriate butts here, but we'd better be damned sure of precisely WHICH butts we're kicking. Get sloppy in our governmental decisions, and that butt will be our own. I hope we can take sufficient time to make wise choices before we push buttons. I promise I'll leave it there and say no more.
Don't be so shy. We need some clear thinking. And all my best wishes on your loss.
I wondered why you got off line. Good to have to back Kevin. The place wasn't the same without you.
So sorry also to hear of your misfortunes. Hang in there . We have friends next door whose daughter lives in Hoboken and lost a good friend in WTC. This is affecting everybody. On top of the WTC/Pentagon disaster you had a personal family loss. Almost too much to bear....
Chuck Greene
My Brothers Wife lost Three in the WTC and one at the Pantagom. Also my wife was at ground zoro when the frist plane hit. She got hit with some small this on her head. She did not get heart,but just thinking that me and my doughter could have lost her still scar me. keep up the faith.
Robert
It's very unsettling when a World event hits so close to home. Words of symphony from your friends may be a little help.
We'll be thinking of you next week-end as we go for a ride in the country.
Mr t
I'm sorry about your losses so I imagine that it must be very rough for you right now. Although I didn't lose anyone that I know of in the World Trade Center attack I suffered two losses one in late April and the other in early July which made it rough for me this past summer so I feel quite bad for you right now. You have my condolences.
#3 West End Jeff
Sorry for not saying so sooner Selkirk but I wasn't aware of your losses. You have my deepest symptathy.
My thoughts and prayers (and I had a lot of opportunity for both this past holiday) are with you during this difficult time.
--Mark
I'm very sorry to hear of your loss, Kevin!
I have missed your level-headed posts here!
Just wanted to say thanks to all ... BECAUSE of the funerals and memorials I attended, I'm a whole lot better off than folks who are still walking wounded over all this who haven't gotten some churching. Seriously, whatever your faith, whatever your situation, it will help TREMENDOUSLY for everyone to attend either a personal or public memorial. It'll help you get over what has happened and gain you some perspective. One cannot get over this without some form of perspective even if it's with a shrink.
So thanks for the kind words one and all - despite it all, I'm actually QUITE OK now ... I just needed to take a break from life to reflect on all that has happened and purge my own soul of the hatred and anger that had been welling up about all this. Some may have read the forward I posted last week about the stages of mourning - it's so very true now that I've been through it.
I'm going to repost it here for those who missed it, since I have no idea of what message number it was previously. Whatever your persuasion, the advice STILL remains helpful even if you're an agnostic:
Human beings waking up on this day after and the many days after to come will need to find ways to cope with this awful event. Here then, are some suggestions for how to accomplish this task.People reacting to losses and traumas tend to go through a set of 'stages of grief' which are usually listed as denial, outrage/anger, working through, and resolution. Although these 'stages' don't always occur in this order, they are experiences that many people will go through as they come to terms with this event. Although a verbal description is not the same as experience, it is nevertheless a good idea to know what you and others are likely to feel.
Denial
You can't believe that this is happening, has happened. It seems unreal, like a dream. The world may even seem unreal and you may go about your day in a sort of fog. In the more serious scenarios, true dissociation can occur where there is distorted memory for the event. Just this morning on the news, I saw an interview with the parents of one of the Pennsylvania victim's parents. It seems that this brave man was able to call his parents after the hijacking, tell them he loved them, and also tell them about the hijacking events. The parents noted that he "IS a proactive sort of person" and would be someone who would try to take action against the hijackers. Maybe, they wondered out loud, maybe he helped crash that plane into the ground rather than allow it to hit a target. I noted the parent's use of the present tense in describing their son - the reality of the son's murder hasn't quite sunk in yet.
Outrage/Anger
You are angry, furious, outraged at the event, at being victimized, at the scope of the tragedy, at the death toll of thousands of innocents, at the vulnerability that has been forcibly brought to your attention, at your own vulnerability. You are hurt, you may even find yourself crying. You are both sad and angry. You want revenge. You want blood. You want to take the eye of the perpetrator (who at this point is not known), for having taken your own eye. In the more severe scenarios, you will not wait to know who did this, will not limit your anger to those who legitimately deserve it, will not allow the government and military to do their jobs, but rather will race out to harm others who, in your own mind are associated with the perpetrators.
If these are your feelings, please do not act on them. Feel them, talk about them even, but do not act on them. The people you as an individual could harm are not to blame for this tragedy. They were not the perpetrators. Instead, they are as much victims as you are. Allow the United States government to "hunt down and punish" (in the words of President Bush) the true perpetrators.
Working Through
Working through happens over time. It is the process through which one ends up sorting all the many feelings out and weaving them into the fabric of ones life so that, as it were, things return to 'normal'. Many different feelings may be felt during this sorting out process: anger and outrage may alternate with periods of relative detachment, fatigue, sadness, bursts of tears, even numbness at times. You may find yourself not wanting to feel anything, and then later find yourself overwhelmed by feeling. It is as though you have swallowed an emotional meal that your body and soul are not quite able to digest all at once. Eventually, over time, most will find a way to digest it all, and life will return to 'normal'
Resolution
Resolution is a relative term. Mostly what it means is that the acute emotional mess of working through is resolved enough so that life has returned to a regular rhythm, and once again, worry about paying the bills and holding and keeping a job, and keeping your relationships on an even track become the day to day worries. Some people will resist resolution in the belief that to resolve and be over this tragedy means that the horror has been forgotten and that the meaning of the attack has been forgotten. Others will find solace in spiritual teachings of forgiveness and confidence in the ultimate ability for eternal judgment to sort out things better than any human being could. For many people, resolution will be hard to achieve until there has been some satisfactory response by the United States government.
The intensity of this process of grieving and working through will likely be in relationship to how closely you have been impacted. Those who have lost loved ones will be hardest hit, as will those who do the actual rescue and emergency work. Those who know people who were lost, but are not related to them will be hit to a lesser degree. Those who only saw this on the television and heard it on the radio will have an easier time.
Trauma Disorders
Those people most directly impacted by the violence and death are at heightened risk for experiencing trauma disorders. A trauma disorder
occurs (in the broadest sense) when a person is not able to follow a normal process of grief through to resolution, and instead gets stuck
in it, reliving the emotions and memories associated with the trauma over and over. There are two forms of trauma disorders: Acute Stress
Disorder and Posttraumatic Stress Disorder. As the names suggest, the big difference between these two disorders is that Acute Stress Disorder happens directly in the aftermath of a trauma, while PTSD by definition cannot occur until six months after the occurrence of the trauma.
Trauma disorders are characterized by: 1) heightened startle responses, arousal, and anxiety reactions, 2) avoidance of trauma related people, places, things and memories, and 3)intrusive re-experiencing of the trauma in the form of nightmares, waking dreams and memories, and sometimes even hallucinations.
See Your Doctor
If you have been traumatized, it isn't a bad idea to see your doctor, or even better, a Psychiatrist with an understanding of trauma. Doctors may be able to prescribe a treatment plan for you that will help address and help you work through your traumatic circumstances. Such a plan will likely include medication and psychotherapy.
Encourage But *Do Not Force* Talking
It is most important that people exposed to a trauma be encouraged, *but not forced* to talk about what they have experienced. Traumatized persons are very vulnerable to being flooded with the emotion of what they have experienced it is quite important that they be able to speak about what they have witnessed in a safe environment in front of people who will have the strength to witness what they have to say and feel without themselves becoming overwhelmed, angry,etc.. Many lay people will have a difficult time doing this and so, in many cases the task of encouraging traumatized people to talk will be best left to trained mental health professionals. If you are a traumatized person, consider seeking psychotherapy at this time. If you know of people who have been traumatized, encourage them
to participate in psychotherapy sessions. Both individual psychotherapy and group psychotherapy sessions with other persons who have experienced similar or the same traumas can be very helpful to trauma victims. In some cases, therapy may be the thing that prevents trauma victims from crossing the line from Acute Stress into Posttraumatic Stress Disorders.
Combating Helplessness
Most all people are on edge in the aftermath of a national trauma like that we have just experienced. Don't be surprised if there is an
increase in the number of household arguments you have. Don't be surprised if you find that fears and phobias you had a handle on before (fears of flying in an airplane, of being in a tall building, etc.) become exacerbated. Chalk this up to the normal process of working through and trust that in most cases these will recede as this event becomes resolved (and if they don't that there is effective therapy that can help). In the mean time, there are a few things you can do to combat feelings of helplessness:
1) Give Blood.
The Red Cross and hospitals in the New York City and Washington D.C.areas are in need of blood. Be part of those who help the victims get the blood that they need by donating some to your local Red Cross or Blood Bank. Call 1-800-GIVE-LIFE (1-800-448-3543) or try the Red Cross' website
2) Talk About It.
If this tragedy is bothering you, talk about it with others who also want to talk about it. This sort of talk could happen anywhere, at home, work, with a therapist, with a religious leader, etc. It doesn't have to be formal. Just watch out for expressions of violence and anger. It's really okay to talk about being angry, hurt, devastated, etc. but it is *not okay* to threaten others with violence (see my plea above under Outrage/Anger). Let the government handle that part.
Mark Dombeck, Ph.D.
Director MNH
My deepest sympathies for your losses. Welcome back.
I'm very sorry for your losses. Things'll get better. I mean they can't get any worse can they?
Our thoughts are with you at this difficult time. We've been through it ourselves this summer - my wife's mother passed away in mid-August, up in Michigan - so I have some understanding of what you're going through right now.
Interesting that you mention Danville - I assume he was at the Geisinger Medical Center? I spent my summers at my grandparents' house in Bloomsburg when I was young, third house up from the Lackawanna yard, back when they still had a couple of steam switchers there.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Thanks ... a daughter works at the Medical Center, "Dad" literally dropped dead in a house he was building up there to be closer to the rest of the family because he had had more than his fill of Carolina. So they were moving into a new house in Pennsylvania that they were building and he died painting one of the door trims. Happiest point in his life too getting the house almost finished.
But yeah, we were down there to "collect" him and bring him back to where his own family was just south of Meriden, CT. We ate in Hamden one of the nights which is ever so close to Branford. First time I've been that far south in Connecticut. Not a fun week ...
Now if they would just get a quick waiver and keep running those 10-6's on the Three Rivers past Sept 30 until they get 3 wrecked or dismantled Viewliners back on their feet...but I don't think they have the initiative.
My condolences go out to you and yours. You were in my old neighborhood - I lived in Cheshire for 4 1/2 years. South of Meriden lies Wallingford.
Hopefully you'll make it to Branford someday under better circumstances.
D express to 205th St. 125th St. will be the next stop. Watch the doors and enjoy the dash.
It may be sooner than we thought, although it doesn't look good for the IRT. In today's Daily News:
TA Chief Finds N, R Tunnel OK, Eyes Partial Return of Service
If the tunnel wasn't seriously damaged on the IRT my guess is they might be able to restore service in a resaonable amount of time if the damage isn't to great.
#3 West End Jeff
"If the tunnel wasn't seriously damaged on the IRT my guess is they might "
Hehehehee...... ROFLMAO
*That* tunnel was DESTROYED, and is FULL of rubble.
Still, once they get the overburden cleared away, they ought to be able to rebuild the station and tunnel fairly quickly. Cut and cover should be a gimmie in this situation, since the cut is already there.
Elias
Once they clear the rubble away how much time to you think that a good construction crew would need to rebuild the tunnel?
#3 West End Jeff
"Once they clear the rubble away how much time to you think that a good construction crew would need to rebuild the tunnel? "
I bet you they do it pretty darn fast!
Elias
IMO, give them until Spring/Summer '02 to get the tunnel ready.
Could this be a repeat of the repairs after the washout on the East Side IRT at the Astor Place station in 1956?
#3 West End Jeff
What happened in 1956?
=)
Fire at John Wanamaker at Astor Place ... the water put on the burning building cascaded into the subways and undermined the trackbeds and platforms. It was pretty serious. There were pictures of it in Fischler's "Uptown Downtown" book so I imagine they'd be somewhere on the internet for viewing.
My mother's cousin remembers the Astor Place washout in 1956. He was only 12 years old at the time but, he distinctly remembers that his father tried to get to where his business was located which was and still is on 12th St and Broadway. He couldn't even get to his store since they closed off the area because of what had happened to the both the BMT and the IRT subway lines. Although my mother's cousin's father is long since deceased the business is still active to this very day carried on by my mother's cousin. The outfit is Blatt Billiards and you can log on to their website at http://www.blattbilliards.com . His E-mail address is ron@blattbilliards.com
#3 West End Jeff
It was a hell of a fire, cost many firefighters their lives too. The water built up inside the basement until the subway-level doors and windows gave way, releasing a torrent into the IRT and BMT, knocking both out. They had to tear up the streets entirely in the area to rebuild the subways. It was a major event at the time that few forgot who were in the city at the time.
And Blatt? I've actually BEEN in there. :)
Selkirk TMO. Please contact Ronnie Blatt from Blatt Billiards at ron@blattbilliards.com
#3 West End Jeff
Just sent it, hopefully I'll find out whazzup. :)
I've E-mailed my mother's cousin Ronnie Blatt telling him that he is probably going to get a message from you.
#3 West End Jeff
No reply as yet ... I don't like sending people email unless they're expecting it, privacy and common courtesy thing. If he wasn't expecting the email or asked me to email him, chances are it's been trashed. That's the SMART thing to do when you get email from strangers.
No, the smart thing to do is to use an email client that doesn't give random strangers access to your computer.
>>>> That's the SMART thing to do when you get email from strangers. <<<
Totally agree...I ALWAYS delete E-mail from unknown sources...saves me much pain.
Peace,
ANDEE
PS... I lost an old freind myself.
Peace,
ANDEE
It's absolutely remarkable how many people knew SOMEONE that was lost in those buildings. Not just here either, but around the world. If ever there was a place where people of all nations worked, that was it. My sympathies and sure hope you have time to attend a memorial at least - the soul needs it to settle things.
It's absolutely remarkable how many people knew SOMEONE that was lost in those buildings. Not just here either, but around the world. If ever there was a place where people of all nations worked, that was it. My sympathies and sure hope you have time to attend a memorial at least - the soul needs it to settle things.
I didn't actually know anyone who died at the WTC. There were a couple of friends or distant relatives of people I know, and a handful of employees at another division of my employer's parent company. No one I've ever met. So I suppose it shouldn't matter to me. But somehow, the events DO hit close to home. It could be from all these "missing" posters around the city. And clearly, the fact that I saw the towers burn from less than a half-mile away, and heard (but did not see) the south tower fall makes the whole attack more immediate to me than it would be for someone farther away. But it sure isn't easy to forget.
Speaking of ways to settle things, I've chosen a slightly unorthodox method, as Subtalkers probably know by now - sheer seething hatred at the treasonous investors who've panic-sold stocks all this week.
I noted the posts about the seething hatred of the investors who yanked funds and decided to ignore it because of the anger behind it. I also am ignoring the fact that individuals largely heeded the "be patriotic and leave the money alone" while the fatcats were first on line to sell short. Anger and hatred though is not the answer here, it only lowers us to THEIR level and losing one's soul to hatred and venom to me at least only allows the bastards to win.
We have governments whose job it is to dispense the cans of wupass. It is *OUR* job to help heal one another so we can be strong when the time for us to pitch in comes and to rebuild. The BEST way to thumb our noses and bitch-slap the terrorists is to SHOW them that we refuse to give in to their terror and that's a hard thing to do right now. We MUST do it though, or over 6,000 people died for absolutely nothing.
I wish to tell you that I gave Ronnie Blatt of Blatt Billiards your name in an E-mail. He might get back to you one of these days. Then you can discuss the IRT Astor Place washout.
#3 West End Jeff
The email addy here is good, so if he wants to, I'm here. I just don't like to annoy people without them asking me to, or begging for it in some way making them deserving of my "likeness" in their face. :)
I'm sure if Ronnie Blatt of Blatt Billiards wants to contact you he'll do so. Please let me know if he does. I'm sure you'll both have fun discussing the Astor Place washout if he gets in touch with you.
#3 West End Jeff
Shall do ... but I'll let it be voluntary on his part. I'm sure he's got better things to do with his time given the state of the economy. Those of us running businesses are too busy now trying to figure out how to pay our folks and our bills I'm sure.
I'm sure that Ronnie Blatt of Blatt Billiards is having planty of trouble at this time in light of the World Trade Center attack.
#3 West End Jeff
Thanks for the history lesson.
=)
IIRC a hole was cut into Lafayette St. to allow crews to lower equipment into the subway. The task was to shore up the floor and I-beams. Jack screws were used to prop up the I-beams, and the entire floor was filled in with concrete. Lexington Ave. service was restored in a matter of weeks.
The BMT Broadway line was back up and running not too long after the Wanamaker Washout; it didn't suffer from undermining the way the Lex did.
Admit it, dewd ... you own a copy of Fischler's book. :)
Nope, but I've read it. Parts of it, anyway. Or should I say thumbed through it at Caboose Hobbies.
Well, if you ever find yourself up in this area, got the book on the shelf along with BidEdIRTmanL's "They moved millions" ... something to do while watching the bunnies "do it" on the lawn. :)
I already have an autographed copy of it.
Yeh, Ed seems to signed them all. Heh. He's a really cool guy too. We've communicated "offline" and I really like him as well. I've met a number of REALLY fine folks here ... and a few flaming rectums, but they don't get replies. :)
"Once they clear the rubble away how much time to you think that a good construction crew would need to rebuild the tunnel? "
The 1/9 went right underneath the plaza, about 2 levels below street level. Once they clear out the rubble, we may be talking about an open cut rather than a tunnel.
CG
Open cut in Manhattan? Now that would be a first, as most subway lines in Manhattan excluding the upper tip are in tunnels.
It could be an open cut, just to get the line open again to South Ferry ASAP. Since the area will be closed off to the public for a ling time to come, putting a roof on the tunnel does not have to be an immediate priority so long as the walls and track bed foundation are deemed to be safe.
[From the article]
The loss of all N and R service forced a major revision to the subway map, including running No. 1 trains — which usually end their route at South Ferry — into Brooklyn.
Huh? What did the loss of the N and R service have to do with the 1?
"Huh? What did the loss of the N and R service have to do with the 1? "
Hey... they are reporters, what do they know about anything.
Elias
This is another case of a very informative article being deleted from the New York Daily News National Edition!
Yesterday's issue was missing the PATH article!
Thank You SubTalk!
YEAH! Even Ben Laden cannot cripple the MIGHTY BMT!!!!!
My guess if service is restored to the (N)(R) tunnel, trains may pass by at a restricted speed. This area is still off limits to the public so the stations won't open until the last remains of the buildings are carted away. That's how I feel.
Looks like South Ferry will have some cobwebs for the first time !
Bill "Newkirk"
The Broadway line is like it used to be now, it seems I'm waiting forever for a train just like in the days of the Never and Rarely.
Lets hope they can at least re-open the tunnel route soon, because Brooklyn service is really suffering.
Given that 1s and 2s now alternate on the local south of 96th, and 9s were suspended, there must be longer headways and crowding on the 1 above 96th. My quesion is, could you insert a few 9s starting at 242nd during rush hour? These would run normally till 145th, then on the center track to 96th, and then express to 14th or wherever else they can be turned. This would 1) add capacity above 96th, 2) speed the trip of those who take it, and 3) increase express capacity below 96th. Any thoughts?
Not a bad idea, but the 1, 2, and 9 would have to share trackage just north of 96th, forcing total throughput down on the 1 and 2.
Van Cortlandt is running the same headway as always, according to the supplement schedule.
Interesting.
So to everyone who claimed in past months that the West Side IRT local tracks were operating at maximum capacity, that apparently was not the case.
The local service boost should remain permanently, if not by running the 2 local then by adding service to the 1 itself (short-turning, if appropriate).
"So to everyone who claimed in past months that the West Side IRT local tracks were operating at maximum capacity, that apparently was not the case."
I don't remember anybody making that claim. In fact, NYCT just (August 5) added service to the #1/#9.
David
Here's a post from May that strongly implies that there's no room for service improvements. It's not the only such post; it's just the one I happened to find first in the archives.
I know you mentioned (in another thread, in June or July I think) that the 1 would be getting a service boost; I guess that's the one that went into effect on August 5.
I'm most pleased with the current service pattern. I could certainly believe that the local tracks are now at or pretty close to maximum capacity. Someone posted that the 1 hasn't lost any service; has the 2?
My only suggestion at this point is to convince the R-142's to stop announcing the 2 as an express if it's making local stops. It correctly announces the local stops; it just calls itself an express at the same time, confusing everyone at each express stop. (They've always done this at night, but now even people who sleep normal hours have to decipher the cryptic announcements.)
The posting in question represented the poster's opinion (albeit an informed one, as the poster is, or at least was at the time, a Train Operator on the line). It did not necessarily represent a fact, and, since NYCT has, IN FACT, increased service on the line, it has been proven unfounded.
David
Yes, I know.
In fact, that was my point to begin with.
> My only suggestion at this point is to convince the R-142's to stop announcing the 2 as an
> express if it's making local stops.
Somehow, I don't think you can successfully "convince" the R-142's to change their announcements. They are controlled by a computer, which would need to be reprogrammed. Being a computer programmer myself, I know that.
Still, the reprogramming should be done somehow.
- Lyle Goldman
I was speaking metaphorically, of course.
If a train is making local stops, it's a local. If a train is making express stops, it's an express. Real C/R's know that, but whoever programmed the trains apparently didn't. For the foreseeable future, the 2 is a local. I don't expect the Redbirds' rollsigns to be updated, but surely the R-142's should have been designed to automatically make the correct adjustments. (Then again, who would have thought that it would have been such a hassle to change the transfer announcements that it is preferable to confuse passengers for four months? The entire procedure should be doable in five minutes.)
The MTA has had a lot to worry about lately.
I know -- I'm pointing out a flaw in the system that should have been caught a year ago. Now we're paying the price. For now, at the very least, C/R's should turn off the automated announcements in Manhattan and make manual announcements instead.
All the Conductor had to do is hit the PA button to beep out the Express saying. "This is a Brooklyn bound No.2 Bing."
If you want to bring back the 9, then it should be 1 and 9 local to Brooklyn and 2 and 3 express to Penn Station, turning back uptown from there. Otherwise we'll be back to the service pattern of Monday and Tuesday where locals and expresses were crossing in front of each other north of 96th Street. That'll cause major delays and defeat the purpose of express service on 7th Avenue.
Regarding this week's service changes - will these be in effect during the daytime hours on Saturdays and Sundays?
I would assume that the new IRT Seventh Ave. configuration will operate on weekends. I'm curious about the BMT services - the extended J and M, the full W service, and the Q to Queens Blvd.
Jim D.
This weekend will be interesting.
A GO -- clearly authored prior to these changes -- has the N and R running over the Manhattan Bridge. Does that mean that the J and M will be operating over the Manhattan Bridge? It couldn't, because then they wouldn't be able to get to the Williamsburg Bridge.
Here's my guess. The M will operate only as a Metropolitan-Myrtle shuttle. The W (or N) will run one way on the Sea Beach and the other way on the West End, and continue to Manhattan and Queens. The J will operate in three sections: Jamaica Center to Canal, Canal to Chambers (due to another GO), and 36th to 95th. On 4th Avenue, the W will be local and the J can go either way (probably local, to reduce confusion). We'll see if I'm close.
I wonder what will happen to CPW local service. The C is the only line scheduled there on weekends (since the weekend B was semisecretly eliminated on July 22), but the C isn't running now. I see four possibilities: (a) the A or D runs local on CPW; (b) the C does run, for a change; (c) the B runs even though it's a weekend; (d) the eight stations in question are simply closed. IMO, (a) is most likely (probably the D, which has its own GO further south and will end up on the 8th Avenue local tracks northbound anyway -- the last time I rode such a D, it ran local on CPW) and (d) is the least likely, but, again, we'll see.
The service alert page is remarkably silent on weekend service -- perhaps it just hasn't been decided yet.
I am guessing that weekday non-rush hour service will be used on the weekends, except for the Q express. Running the B train on weekends is analogous to the C train going to WTC instead of Euclid, so they have enough cars and staff for it.
This weekend the D is schedule (per GO) to run south to W4 (and presumably from there to 2nd Avenue) and to return via 8th Avenue. If the B also runs, the B, D, and E will be sharing the local track from W4 to 42. Be prepared for delays.
Brooklyn W riders must be happy: barring GO's, there isn't much choice but to run their line through to Manhattan on weekends.
Is the D going through the DASH?
No, it merges onto the local track and makes local stops.
GO's have been cancelled left & right since WTC. Expect this GO to be KO'd as well.
I wouldn't be surprised. Yet some GO's are on -- this same one (or an awfully similar one) was on last weekend.
You're right about the M and W (due to the ongoing signal replacement on the West End. But the J is still running all the way to 95th.
But now the Sea Beach M, which is running both ways, has to be cut at Pacific, meaning that the W (which I was operating) is forced to the local tracks, skipping the stops southbound, but stopping northbound. The W schedule was all screwed up, in part by this. The J seems to be on some ridiculous headway, as I passed people who looked like they were waiting for a long time. In fact, I didn't even see many J's out there. Then later, when I waited for it in Manhattan, it was a while, and there were a lot of riders.
The notices all said the M would run "all times". Why didn't they just stick with that? Keeping a stupid shuttle to Broadway-Myrtle is important enough to screw up the rest of the system? Who keeps telling the operations planners that there are so little people in Bushwick and Ridgewood that they MUST have only a shuttle and one connecting service to Manhattan on weekends, at all costs, an under evry circumstance? Is there some group over here they are trying to keep from traveling to the rest of the city?
The subways have been miserable since the 11th. It seems I am waiting forever for a train, except on the 7 line which still has good service. I won't even go near the Lex, it must be so overloaded.
Save for Chinatown, I won't be doing much in the way of NYCS railfanning lately or going to Manhattan.
Man that W must have been packed this weekend. Only two lines running to 4th ave, yikes. If possible all G.O.'s involving J and M service, as well whatever work there is in southern BRooklyn should be postponed until the lower Manhattan N/R line resumes.
W seemed pretty normal in queens tonight... it's pre-bridge flip (N) volume though on weekdays. crowded, but not unbearable.
I just missed a J this afternoon. The next one arrived 12-13 minutes later. Not outrageous (for the J) but probably somewhat worse than usual.
The southbound W I rode made all stops from DeKalb to Stillwell. (Well, I got off at 59th but the C/R announced 8th Avenue. With the M making local stops in both directions on the Sea Beach, why not run the W express there? Unless it's been put back, the R-143 trainset isn't blocking the express track anymore.)
Southbound, the M ran express from Pacific to 59th. (Slowly, I might add. As the W I was riding pulled out of Pacific, the M began to show its face, yet the W arrived at 59th before the M.) Northbound, there were a few J trains laid up on the express track, so the M ran local from 59th to 36th and express from there to Pacific (fortunately, there was a J right behind it -- but I still just missed an F by mere seconds). I don't think the M's run express since 1994 or so.
I really don't understand why the TA steadfastly refuses to give the M reasonable weekend service -- especially when the new map says the M runs to Manhattan and south Brooklyn at all times.
Southbound, the M ran express from Pacific to 59th. (Slowly, I might add. As the W I was riding pulled out of Pacific, the M began to show its face, yet the W arrived at 59th before the M.)
That M arriving at Pacific St as you were leaving on the W sat there for about 8 minutes - until its scheduled leaving time - before it began to chase you. Once the W arrives at 59 St and punches, all the approach signals on the express track go red (to avoid the impending collision of M and W on the express track) and then clear on station time slowing down the M even more.
OK, I just found out why. Someone told me the Crew Office did not have time to assign enough crews to the extended weekend line. But from the new maps it does appear that they intended to run it all the way through. I hope this problem is fixed this weekend. I'm hoping the extended service will catch on and disprove the longstanding "low ridership" excuse.
The R-143 was sitting in CI yard near the West End leads.
How come no one has thought of running passenger service over the NY & A trackage? I'm sure with some upgrades it could be used for passenger service and freight. Since the crisis, seems like that would have come in handy since it passes quite a few subway transfer points in Brooklyn (A,B,C,J,L,N,Z,2,3 come to mind). You could build temporary platforms and use the old LIRR cars and the old diesels until the tracks can be electrified. You could the last stop in Sunset Park, utilizing the yards, for ferry service to Manhattan. Thoughts anyone?
If there were passenger service it would be run by the LIRR. The NY&A owns no trackage, just equipment and the rights to run freight service. The LIRR unions would not stand for NY&A running passenger service, and rightly so.
Why should the unions care? How would it affect them unless LIRR cut back its own service?
I'm not sure the Fed. RR Admin. would allow subway-weight trains to share FRA-regulated freight tracks. However, if they could build a light rail "subway" line above or next to the freight tracks, it might be possible. However, this has been talked about for decades and hasn't been done yet, though I think it is a great idea. I guess it will be done when the Utica Avenue and Flatbush Avenue extensions are completed, i.e., never.
Sirt R-44 Cars are modified & PATH Cars Are Built to run on FRA Track Due to connections with Mainline Class 1 Railroads. Sirt Has/Had a Connection with Former B&O/Conrail & Current NS/CSX/CP & PATH Has Connections With Former Pennsyvania & Current NEC Tracks.
Because the NY&A doesn't exist as a railroad. It is a freight service with trackage rights on the LIRR. Any passenger service is the province of the LIRR and its own employees.
I believe that the right to run passenger service belongs exclusively to LIRR.
I believe that the right to run passenger service belongs exclusively to LIRR.
I doubt that the NY&A would even want to run passenger service without big subsidies. It's not what you would call a moneymaker.
Good point.
Really without a Cross-Harbor tunnel allowing a Penn Station bypass on the Boston-N.Y.-Washington corridor and creating Amtrak stops for a few trains a day on Staten Island and in Brooklyn and Queens, there's really no need for passenger service on the line, because the direction it runs in is counter to the direction most commuters want to go
Because the bay ridge line hasn't seen any good maintance in years, outside trash removal. it's 5 to 10mph, at best. it's just not fit for any kind of passenger service. you'd have to rebuild the whole damned line. new ballast, ties, rail, the whole 9, to get it passenger service compliant. that won't happen anytime soon, if even in our lifetimes...
additionlly, as stated - the LIRR unions wouldn't stand for it, and ny&a can only do freight in any case.they have no rights to move passengers.
But there's no need for LIRR speeds there. Someone here mentioned that it took them weeks to get a former freight line up for passanger service after LA eartquake.
Arti
I'm sure it could be done, physically, in a short time if the resources were there, but i somehow suspect such a project is very low on the list of priorities around this town, unfortunately.
though one might wonder if such a project could be further justified to ensure good service to the Brooklyn Army Terminal? you never know...
Do you know how dangerous it is to run diesel cars under New York city?
Hi there
So, more or less the MTA decided to lay-off some of the trains making some do double duty, just like the rest of Corporate America...
The only line that has express service is really the 4 & 5...
So, let me ask these questions:
Why the Express Q train, it hogs up space and causes so many problems when the Bklyn bound meets the locals at Canal...it's a mess...
Why not send it to 21st Queensbridge and then eliminate the Shuttle???
Why the B & D??? The B is excess....they can just call all of them D's and run more trains...
There's a diamond A train now, but I haven't seen it yet...I'm aiming to see the front roll sign on the R44...
So, the 3 train is more or less a shuttle now....
Manhattan Bridge construction...it's been days since I've seen anyone working on that bridge...remind you of the South side of the Bridge when they were doing construction???
Jonathan Yee
SeaBeach53
1) The Q Express provides the same service as in the past; it runs express so as it can pull into 57 St. without too much switching.
2) A 6th Avenue train to Queensbridge is needed to provide service to the 57 St. 6th Avenue station.
3) The Diamond A train has been running for years. It is just the 5 Rockaway Park through A trains that have been running ever since the C starting going to Euclid Avenue. It's nothing new.
4) The B is the Central Park West Local. Why should it be canned? In fact those CPW are the emptiest group in the whole of Manhattan, so they might as well have a single slow local dedicated to them. The D is the CPW express to the Bronx. It's quite a long way to 205 St., so Bronx and Uptown people need the express.
5) The 3 train is not quite a shuttle but it is a way of running all 3 branches of the Broadway-7th Avenue subway without overloading the local tracks.
6) Maybe all those people you want to see fixing the Manhattan Bridge are busy working at the WTC site.
Just about every municipal construction project in NYC has ground to a halt, as the men and equipment already under contract to the city (ie, they're paid for) are in use at the WTC site. The Outerbridge Crossing project has been shut down indefinately; all of their lights, most of their Bobcats, and 3 of 4 minicranes are at the WTC.
-Hank
Just about every R/44 "A" to Rockaway Park I ever road on has been a Circle "A". I would always wait for it as it came in to 42nd St after picking up its fisrt passengers at 59th. It was usually on the heels of a Far Rock "A" . The only difference , two - three minutes and a whole bunch of seat!
I'd always have to see how the side LEDs were signed to be sure of its destination.
NEVVVVVVVER saw a diamond "A" on the R/44 to Rockaway Park.
avid
57th and 6th can be made the north terminal of the 6th Av. S. It has functioned as a terminal on and off for years.
The TA didn't decide to lay off trains. The TA decided to run something given the circumstances. Let's see you come up with something better. Remember, no access to trackage between City Hall and Whitehall, between Chambers and South Ferry, or at WTC.
There is loads of express service: on most of the 7th Avenue IRT, on the Lex IRT, on the Broadway BMT, on the 8th Avenue and CPW IND, on all the Bronx lines that had express service two weeks ago, on all the Queens lines that had express service before July 22, on the combined 2/3/4/5 (now 1/2/4/5) in Brooklyn, and on the Brighton line. In fact, the only lost express service is the 2/3 between 14th and Chambers, the W in Queens, and the J/Z between Marcy and Myrtle.
The diamond-Q exists for the same reason it's existed since July 23: to provide additional Broadway service (and the only express service, now) and Brighton express service. It's one of the lines that has gone unchanged in the recent mess. Yes, of course there are merging delays at Prince, but the same exact services that ran over the bridge two weeks ago are running over the bridge now.
It could be sent to 21st Street, but that would (a) entail closing the 57/6 station (not a big deal, IMO, but it's something), (b) yield confusion on a line that need not be confused, and (c) reduce service on a line (6th Avenue) that need not have service reduced.
The B is the local counterpart to the D. The B runs local on CPW where the D runs express, and when the D runs express in the Bronx, the B picks up the local slack. The only duplication is in the reverse peak direction in the Bronx. Right now, the only service to the CPW local stations is the B, and you want to cancel it too?
The diamond-A is the official designation of the rush hour A to Rockaway Park. (Look at the timetables.) You won't see it on the rollsigns. Nothing's changed except that apparently this route variation is in service to/from 207th (it used to terminate northbound at Dyckman and enter service southbound at 59th), unless the information on that page has a minor error.
Call the 3 train what you like. I don't see it as a shuttle, but, then again, I don't see the Queensbridge shuttle as a shuttle, either. If the 3 were a shuttle, it would terminate at 135th (connecting with the 2) or at 96th (connecting with the 1 and 2); it runs all the way to 14th, which I suspect is further south than most Harlem passengers need to go, let alone the many who board at 96th or 72nd and get off at 42nd or 34th. The 3, in fact, runs both further north and further south than the midday B.
In case you hadn't noticed, there's a lot of work going on on the WTC site. Perhaps the Manhattan Bridge workers are temporarily over there.
It is not reflected on the MTA site but the D runs local at least part of the time during rush hour, the B alone does not cut it. The MTA web page is inaccurate, where the E stops at night is another one they are consistantly wrong on. Last night it ran on 6th ave to 34th St. not Canal as posted.
I'm glad something other than the B is providing local service. I had suggested running the A local, but some D's are better than nothing.
Do you know why the E didn't run to Canal last night?
David, the Q diamond COULD easily be expanded to 21st St.--Queensbridge, (a) without closing 57th-6th, which would become the north terminal of the S 6th Av. Shuttle, (b) without confusion, making this the permanent (at least till November) north terminal of both circle Q and diamond Q, and (c) without reducing service on 6th Av., maintaining the S shuttle schedule.
If you're going to keep the shuttle running, what's the point of sending the Q instead of the shuttle through to Queensbridge?
If the lower Manhattan BMT opens before November 11, the R will be up and running and the circle-Q will get its old terminus back. Terminating one Q at 57th and the other at 21st would cause innumerable delays; sending both Q's to 21st would send too much service up that way, robbing the rest of the system of cars.
Now's not the time to make changes just because we can. Everybody's confused as it is. Whatever can be left alone should be left alone until November 11.
I also have a set of questions
1.Why not run the R from Queens to Canal street(using the abandoned platform as a layup to turn around trains) and have the Q and make express stops?Likewise why can't the N run from Chambers street to Coney Island?
2.Why can't R68's run through the Queens blvd line? Likewise why can't R44/R46's run on the Brighton line?
3.Befor all of this happened,why did the M need to run On the West end line?
4.Since no one's working on the bridge will the MTA meet the 2004 deadline?In fact will the MTA meet the 2015 deadline?
1. Trains terminating at Canal Street would have to relay to City Hall-lower level or Whitehall Street to "turn around." Whitehall Street is currently inaccessible. I'm not completely certain about City Hall, but the power might be off because of its proximity to Cortlandt Street and the rescue/recovery site.
2. R-68s can run on the Queens Boulevard Line. A few ran on the F when they were nearly new, and some have recently (like, this week) run on the Q local to Continental Avenue. R-44s and R-46s have run on the Brighton Line in D service over the years, but not recently.
3. The M was moved from the Brighton to the West End in 1986, when the Brighton Line's local tracks were being reconstructed and the Manhattan Bridge's Sixth Avenue Line tracks were closed (the time previous to this current closure). Will the M go back to the Brighton Line when all four Manhattan Bridge tracks are open? Time will tell. Speaking of which...
4. It's not the MTA's deadline. It's the city's deadline. It's their bridge and their project, not MTA's. Also: what 2015 deadline?
David
3. The M switch happened 3 6thave closures ago(1986,1995,2001)
Broadway(1988,1990)
>>> 1. Trains terminating at Canal Street would have to relay to City Hall-lower level or Whitehall Street to "turn around." Whitehall Street is currently inaccessible. I'm not completely certain about City Hall, but the power might be off because of its proximity to Cortlandt Street and the rescue/recovery site.<<<
City Hall station is on the west side of City Hall, so it may be too close to the rescue/recovery site. But N and R trains used to be stored on the tracks that led into City Hall-lower level between Canal and City Hall during midday hours. There's a double crossovers on those tracks just south of Canal Street. So they can relay R trains between Canal and City Hall. R trains wouldn't have to go all the way into City Hall-lower level if the power is out in City Hall station.
I had also suggested short-turning N and/or R trains at Canal in an earlier post. Short-turned put-ins on the N were standard practice for years. I too remain mystified as to why the TA isn't doing this.
The Q local has been extended to Forest Hills to replace the R. I was one 3 Q local trains, and caught two R-32 trains on the Q line. I thought that only yhte R-68s and R-68As would be extended along with the Q local to Forest Hills.
I saw them too. Pretty strange to see R68's on the Queens Blvd. Line.
Get used to it. Starting November 11th, you'll be seeing them every weekend on the G.
Hello
I'm a French journalist working for the French Marie Claire. First of all let me tell you that all my thoughts go with you and New York city. I know I can count on this Great city to be back on its feet very soon.
I was in New York begining of september (I left on the 9th) doing a story on the D train. I met a lot of people in the subway but also at the MTA office and from the Electrical railroaders association in Grand Central. It is a fantastic reportage.
I still need some pieces of information
- I was told that in its begining the D train was oriented towards the WTC. When did it stop going there.
Can you confirm its date of birth, 1933
Was it a private or a city line in its begining ?
I'm on dead line now, so the answers are very urgent ! Can I have them by tomorrow.
Of course I will send you a copy of the issue of the article.
Thank you very much
Anne Deguy
I was told that in its begining the D train was oriented towards the WTC. When did it stop going there. Can you confirm its date of birth, 1933
The Bronx part of the D train started on July 1st, 1933, when IND service was extended to 205th St and Bainbridge Ave, the Bronx, via the Grand Boulevard & Concourse. At that time it was known as the C express or CC local. On December 15th, 1940, service began from 205th to Hudson Terminal (the name of the station before the WTC was built), via Central Park West, 53rd St and 6th Ave, switching from the 6th Av. to the 8th Av line south of W 4th St. At this time, it became known as the D train.
Was it a private or a city line in its begining ?
The City had tried to get a private operator to run it, but was not successful. The City then operated it as the Independent City Owned Rapid Transit Railroad, or IND, for short.
See my History of the Independent Subway for more details.
--Mark
The City had tried to get a private operator to run it, but was not successful.
Mark, I'll have to argue with that statement, which is the "official line," even today.
The terms under which any private operator would have gotten part or all of the IND system were so onerous that it was pretty much a foregone conclusion that the City would operate it.
I believe that the "private operator" line is cover to deflect criticism over the City's unprecedented abuse of its public domain power.
With what was happening with the IRT and BMT at the time under the Dual Contracts. I thought NYC wanted to change the contract a little so that the money would go to the city instead of the companies. The subway was well on it's way to being built and when no company (IRT, BMT, Hudson & Manhattan) would operate it, NYC was forced to operate it itself.
I have never seen any hard evidence other than City rhetoric that it ever seriously expected a private operator.
If you know of any, please inform me.
I agree with you; perhaps I put it a bit more diplomaticly :)
--Mark
The city-owned Independent lines first opened on 9/10/1932, but the D
train service started, I believe on 12/15/1940, when the Sixth Ave.
line opened. It went to either Hudson Terminal(Current WTC Station) or
Second Ave.or Broadway/Lafayette. Later a new connection allowed D
trains to run over the current F line in Brooklyn. And in 1967,
another new connection (Chrystie St.) opened and the D train ran to
Coney Island via the Brighton line (via Prospect park, Shhepshead bay,
Brighton Beach). The works being done on the Manhattan bridge have
severed the line in the eighties as well as right now and it is cut
back to 34th St.
The d train always run on the same course above 34th St. in Manhattan
but has changed its southern part so many times. I 'm sure I'm missing
some info.
Bon, vous avez eu des reponses.
On vous attends. C'etait pas suffisant?
Au moins pouvez-vous enyoyer la texte en français?
Ah, vous avez raison. Son prenom est Anne.
J'avais rate ce detail. Donc, Mademoiselle Anne Deguy,
Qu'est-ce qu'il se passe?
Je suis aussi curieux quand est-ce qu'est la prochaine chance de
rouler sur des rames Spragues-Thomson a Paris.
Je n'ai pas pu reserver ma place l'annee derniere.
Wado, qui a passe son enfance dans la ville de Paris de 1969 a 1974
Looks like the questions got answered.
Out of curiousity why the D train?
Arti
I believe the D did not start operating until 1940. I'll be corrected if I am wrong. At that time the subway under 6th Ave started running. So a letter was needed for the line and D was selected. At first the D ran from 205 St-Bronx (alwyas has) to 34 st-6 ave. As time went on it ran to different places. 2nd Ave, Church Ave-Bk'lyn and Stillwell Ave via Culver. It has been running to Stillwell Ave via Brighton line since 1968.
The IND was always a city run subway. IRT and BMT were at that time seperate companies and did not become city operated until 1940. Both had contracts with the city where NYC would own it and the companies would operate it.
Mayor Hylan had a grudge against the companies because a supervisor fired him on the spot for reading a law book when he was supposed to be operating a train. Something like a person driving a car these days and talking on a cell phone instead of paying attention to where he's going.
http://www.boston.com/dailyglobe2/263/living/Should_we_%2b.shtml
Build them the same, if not bigger.
Protect them and add a memorial of course, but anything less than a total rebuild would be a capitulation to those motherless animals.
(I am not an architect nor a businessman, but a lifelong New Yorker.)
Excellent article, indeed. Thanks for sharing it.
What a load of garbage. You mean the Globe actually paid for somebody to write this?
In the first place, historians do not believe as a group that the site should not be rebuilt. Neither do the insurers. And Stilgoe's argument is infantile.
Breaking ground should not take all that long, either. There really isn't another option, in this case.
how strange...
''I have a recurring nightmare - if that is the word in which two Concorde super-sonic airliners, one British and one French, slice the towers in half, a collision of modern achievements,''
George F. Will 1977
Not all that strange, save that he bothered to put it in writing.
Dreams often are only peripherally related to their subject matter. A dream of falling may indicate fear of losing control, being lost might mean insecurity, etc.
I'd been to the top of each of the towers multiple times for dinner, dates, sightseeing, even on business. A couple of times I've dreamt of being at the top of one of them when it fell over. What's so special about that? Nothing much. The only irony to me, is that, in my dreams, the tower either fell over or crashed into the neighboring tower. I never imagined that a tower would crumble.
Psychologists have told us that our most unreasoning fears are the same as when we were in the caves--lightning, heights, spiders. We've build modern structures and fly about in airplanes but I guess we're not as far out of the caves as we like to think.
Just to let all of our fellow SubTalkers know that Subway Al (aka Al Z. from the railfan shows) and his family is A-OK and that he is running the Newark to 33rd Street trips 3x day.
BMTman
Opps we didn't see each others e-mail until we both posted comments about Al Z. Well, better to have more friends then less < G >
Mr t
Hey Doug, Is Subway Al a T/O on PATH?
Never mind, I see that Thurston has already answered the question!
Great news!
Al is a cool guy...
On our Field Trip the Thursday that was the next to last day of PCC service on the NEwark City Subway, we met Path T/O Al Z., otherwise known to his friends as Subway Al ... anyhow a mutual friend spoke with him & he wanted to let us all know that he's just fine and doing runs from Newark to 33rd vs. WTC these days.
Mr t
A perfect case as to why the TA should leave things well enough alone. I just read there use to ne a connection fron the Manhattan Bridge to the Nassau St. Line. How a connection would help in a time like this...
It wouldn't.
-Hank
Imagine how screwed up Brooklyn to Midtown service would be if they had left things alone? Actually, yes, there would be no service.
Arti
It would have been better if both sides of the bridge were open, then I think there would be no need for the M to CI since the N would probably have used the bridge. It would have been the perfect balance B and D on the north side, N and Q on the south, and if we took a page from what is going on currently, the J to 95th if the powers that be decide that 3 trains on the south side is too much (R)
=)
Webmaster Dave has posted my pictures of the 207th Street Yard tour including the R-100B triplet.
Nice, very nice. At irst I thought I found a hidden glut of R/10s, then I checked the dates. What an overwhelming sense of lose.
Then my feelings soared when I saw R/32 3892 getting fitted with new A.C. life goes on!
The shot of the R100Bs was impressive. While admiring the work, I spotted the propane tank in the lower left corner. Was heypaul there slinging hash, hot dogs and bergers?
Todd slips heypaul two twenties for a Buffalo berger Delux with everything and a beverage!
avid
I hear that heypaul was in King-o'-Prussia that day, so he missed out on grabbing Redbird innards that could serve as companions to his R-9 cab.
Are they like Chicken gizzards or tougher and require a longer simmer over a low flame?
avid
Great shots, Dave!
Uhm, I know you mean the R-110's, and not R-100's.
It's the "new math." What do you get when you take away an R-100 from an R-110? An R-10, of course :-)
Todd ... LOL ... you'll have to teach my grandson that math. His 3rd grade teacher will be so impressed !
BTW, Saw you photos yesterday ... impressive, thanks for sharing.
Mr t__:-(
Does that mean we'll have R10's anytime soon on the IND? =)
Nice Pictures, Todd. Looks like redbird 7776 is getting ready for the river... -Nick
And its mate "quad 7" was there too.
I believe that one of George Chiasson's recent reports mentioned they have both been dunked.
Interestng side signage on R-32 3892 :)
--Mark
Yup, that was my favorite: North Terminal to South Terminal via JFK Express. There there were the R-32s and R-38s that had their bulkhead displays set for K, X, and U.
THAT is what my IND sign box will read for the next week.
Peace,
ANDEE
Something very strange happened with the power this morning around 8:30am. I heard my refrigerator clicking on and off, the lights were dimming a bit and the answering machine kept clicking. So I turned on my scanner to find out. Apparently there was an explosion at a major LIPA substation in East Meadow. The voltage dips were occuring all over the county, and police were busy with many malfunctioning traffic lights. On the LIRR many grade crossing gates were stuck in the down position. The substation was and may still be on fire.
So if there were problems with the LIRR this morning, as well as on the Far Rockaway branch of the A, it most likely can be attributed to the voltage dips this morning.
Something very strange happened with the power this morning around 8:30am. I heard my refrigerator clicking on and off, the lights were dimming a bit and the answering machine kept clicking. So I turned on my scanner to find out. Apparently there was an explosion at a major LIPA substation in East Meadow. The voltage dips were occuring all over the county, and police were busy with many malfunctioning traffic lights. On the LIRR many grade crossing gates were stuck in the down position. The substation was and may still be on fire.
I notice MTA police at a couple of Ronkonkoma-line grade crossings shortly after 7 this morning. Usually they appear at the crossings when there are gate problems. Could it have been connected?
Did the Guide Crossing gates by East Williston Station was stuck and the N22A that go's by that Guide Crossing and cross the OB Line Tracks. Was N22A have to go rerouted around that aera?
I have no idea.
Sorry, I need to make this post so that the saved password on this computer changes. Feel free to delete at will, Dave
Not too much out of the ordinary this morning. I had to wait 4 mintues for the train. The only unusual thing is that on the bridge south of Grosvenor, the train stopped and changed to manual operation for the rest of the trip to Grosvenor. I also heard something on the radio about the 5 AM opening but couldn't make out what.
SUBTALK LIVE THIS SATURDAY
September 22, 2001
7:30 PM ETBusTalkers are welcome, too!SubTalk live is your chance to hold LIVE chats with other railfans and busfans. All are welcome and encouraged to join us for a fun evening!
As in any Internet forum or chatroom, certain polices and rules need to be created and enforced. SubTalk Live is no exception. The following policies are in effect at all times in the chatroom or when making posts on SubTalk and BusTalk pertaining to the chat:
1. ANY public transit related topic can be discussed (bus, subway, or railroad).
2. It is requested that you use your handle as your chat nickname.
3. OPs will be the sole people in the chat to deem a topic off subject and are the only people who can make announcements on SubTalk and BusTalk pertaining to the opening, closing, delay, cancellation, postponement, software, server, or technical difficulties with the chat. When in doubt over what you are about to do, don't do it! If you have a problem with any of the above issues, e-mail an operator. Please do not post on SubTalk or BusTalk! This also applies to responding to this message. Do not respond to this message unless you are posting a question relevant to SubTalk Live. Do not post announcements pertaining to the chat.
4. Anyone who disrupts the chat in any way (scrolling, profanity, obscene remarks, constant chatting off-topic, or any of the above) will be punted and/or banned from SubTalk Live with or without warning.ARE YOU READY TO SUBTALK LIVE???
Just go to http://www.subtalklive.com and join in! If you use mIRC, do your thing!NOTE
It is strongly reccomended you enter the room and troubleshoot BEFORE Saturday night! If you encounter problems, e-mail an operator, do not post on SubTalk/BusTalk!WE LOOK FORWARD TO SEEING YOU!
PLEASE DO NOT RESPOND TO THIS POST
For an explanation of this request, see the chat policies.
Link to story on the web: http://www.utu.org/News/NewsDgst/2001/September/0920/0920.htm#DAMAGE ON NYC
DAMAGE ON NYC TRANSIT LINES LESS THAN FEARED
NEW YORK CITY -- The president of New York City Transit toured subway tunnels yesterday near the worst devastation from the World Trade Center collapse, and reported that the N and R lines, thought to be extensively damaged, had not been pierced by falling steel beams, as earlier thought. But transit officials cautioned that their original projection of those lines running normally in a few weeks was probably too optimistic.
Around the rest of the city, there were small glimmers that transportation was inching closer to normal. The Brooklyn Bridge, which has been closed to private cars since the disaster, will partly reopen today, with two Manhattan-bound lanes back in use. Brooklyn-bound lanes on the bridge are still closed to make travel easier for emergency vehicles, as are the Holland Tunnel and the Brooklyn Battery Tunnel.
The best news for city car owners was undoubtedly an announcement by the city transportation commissioner, Iris Weinshall, that alternate- side parking rules would be suspended indefinitely. "If they have to move their car, they take it to work," she said. "And we don't want that to happen."
In the subway, officials were buoyed by the relatively good condition of the N and R tunnels, but they were still trying to determine whether there was hidden structural damage. They were also moving sensing equipment underground to measure vibrations from cranes and other heavy machinery that are moving debris away from the street above.
Al O'Leary, the chief spokesman for New York City Transit, said that initial plans to reopen the line in a few weeks were being reconsidered. "We're not in a good position to say how long it's going to be out," he said, "because we don't know how long the work is going to take on the street, and that has a direct effect on the subway."
But over all, the damage to the system near the trade center was not as bad as had been feared. At the World Trade Center station on the E line, an inspection of the platform found very little damage. In fact, even the glass doors leading out to the mall area beneath the trade center were unbroken. "Given the potential for what could have been lost there long-term," Mr. O'Leary said, "it's kind of amazing."
The most lasting effect from the collapse will be to the 1 and 9 line, whose tunnels appear to be collapsed for about 1,000 feet just east of where the towers fell. Lawrence Reuter, the transit agency president, and other officials toured those tunnels south of the Cortlandt Street station, walking north, and found not only a solid wall of steel and crushed concrete near the station, but also other damage, such as a steel beam that had punched through the street.
sorry about the all caps subject...I just pasted the title of the article and it kinda looks like I'm (surprise) screaming, which, of course, I'm not :)
The most lasting effect from the collapse will be to the 1 and 9 line, whose tunnels appear to be collapsed for about 1,000 feet just east of where the towers fell. Lawrence Reuter, the transit agency president, and other officials toured those tunnels south of the Cortlandt Street station, walking north, and found not only a solid wall of steel and crushed concrete near the station, but also other damage, such as a steel beam that had punched through the street.
I reallly hope there was no train there when the tunnel collapsed. I'd guess (or hope) that when the first airplane hit the towers, all trains were stopped, and any in the area were emptied or moved away.
I don't think they were stopped because a friend of mine's dad was on PATH and when he got out, the first plane hit. He even had some debris on him, but he got on the subway and went home. It should have took about a 45min ride, so I guess that he must've been on one of the last trains out.
Well, that's not TOO bad. I feel bad for the 1,9, though. Poor old IRT. :(
Im sorry I dont have the link but in Tuesdays NY Times they had an article about a 1 train operator riding right under the WTC when the plane hit. He found out when he got back uptown. If i find the link i will post it.
Okay, so he was under the WTC when the first plane hit at 8:42 AM. 8:50AM he's laying over at South Ferry, preparing for the trip back to 242-VC. He gets back to Cortlandt St. at about 9AM, when the second plane hits. And you mean to tell me that he wasn't stopped in the area at any time???
At 9 am neither tower had collapsed. Service was probably not normal. But he was peobably told to get out of there.
Anybody know what tme the trainmaster suspened service south of Chambers?
My wife was on an R in the area. She got off the ferry at 9:00ish and onto an R which bypassed Cortlandt St "due to a smoke condition".
The City DoT site doesn't indicate if ASP is suspended.
It is, indefinitely.
1010 WINS has been stating that all afternoon ever 10 minutes.
Perhaps. The only radio I listen to is when I'm in the car, but I'd rather find out if I have to move the car without first walking to it.
I found the information on the 1010 WINS web page.
This is better than the usual arrangement: announcements all day about the status of today's alternate side with no mention of tomorrow's. Um, by mid-afternoon, today's alternate side is no longer relevant, but people kind of need to know if they need to move their cars. On Sunday it wasn't announced until I had already pulled out of my parking space (which was promptly snatched up) that it would be suspended in Manhattan on Monday.
I haven't been able to get through to 225-5368 since the attack. If there's no way the DOT can post the current information on its web page, is it too much to ask that the DOT make sure that the phone line pointed to in said web page is in operation?
This "until further notice" bit is somewhat troublesome. If I happen to miss the announcement (not unlikely, since, as I said, I generally only listen to the radio in the car, and now that I don't need to move it every few days, I'm rarely in the car), I'll be the proud recipient of a $55 ticket -- and, having experienced the Department of Finance shenanigans before, I know there's simply not a chance the ticket will be dismissed unless the mayor himself dismisses all such tickets. (My last ticket -- my only NYC ticket -- was for an expired NYS registration sticker on a car with valid plates from another state. This was an obvious mistake, yet on initial hearing the ruling was upheld. Only on appeal of that result in person did I eventually get my $55 back.)
I finally called DOT, and after MUCH prodding, I *did* indeed find out ASP is suspended in ALL boros until further notice. Before yesterday, the ASP suspension was only limited to Manhattan.
That's certainly good news. Can we contemplate return of full N and R service (minus the WTC-area stops) by November or December?
News in from the News at Optimum Online.
The link is here.
It's a good thing Bush has avoided signing a declaration of war involving the U.S., but instead preparing Americans to face in the long investigation for search for those terrorists and bring them to proper justice.
Things are not as they seem in your homes, SubTalkers! This tragedy isn't over yet. (Unfortunately)
(NOTE: This news is based upon today (Thursday's) actions. Don't forget to see Bush address the nation TONIGHT at 9PM sharp!)
: |
Railfan Pete.
>>> News in from the News at Optimum Online. <<<
Apparently that link had a very short life, so I do not know what you were referring to. It now is about the Bush address to Congress.
Tom
Sorry about those links, but the links which I post from Optimum Online last around 2-3 days at the most.
Most of them last 1 day.
Railfan Pete
>>> but the links which I post from Optimum Online last around 2-3 days <<<
That's why you need to include some explanation of what the link is about.
Tom
I think I overdid this, but whaddya think?
Picture
Three towers? How many stories?
(Make sure it is aircraft resistant!)
Will it be a good addition to the Manhattan Skyline? (I think the positioning of the former twin towers had the BEST one, nothing will replace it.)
Will there be enough space for it? Is the height of the building able to accomodate its balance from the "bathtub" under the 75 foot trench dug into the ground?
Also, it's not just about design, it's about office space. Having too much space is also another issue. Budget is still another one.
Sorry for these many rambling questions, but I am just curious.
You seem to be the former "Tony Mirabella".
: )
Railfan Pete.
Cool we could call it the TRiTOWERS.
The east tower doesn't look exactly plumb. :-)
-- David
Chicago, IL
Yes, I am the former, great, horribly unskilled image editor known as Tony Mirabella. I was just playing with MS-PAINT. TRI-Towers? I like that, but like the F*ck you, Ben Laden, you piece of human dung five fingered tower configuration I saw on the net better! I'll quit my job and take one in construction bringing the workers lunch if they areed to build it! ^_^ Hey, Ben Laden, we're coming for you. Enjoy your remaining days of freedom. When we strap you to that table and inject horse piss into your veins, we should wait until the new WTC is up, and do it on the roof. Then, put your head on top of a flagpole with the American Flag waiving.
Also, I totally agree with Dubya about not persicuting Muslims and Arabs here. I've got some friends who own a grocery store who are Arab, and they've already told me of incidents. Remember, terrorism isn't true Muslim. It is a distored, twisted, anti-Muhammed Bizzaro Muslim that is Bullsh*t. As a Christian, I know how some people twist religion and use it as an exuse. The Muslims in the US are just as horrified as we are. The Talli Ban or however the hell you spell it, has those people in the Mid East on a leash like Hitler had the Germans and the Jews. If someone had a gun to your head and was your only source of food, you might have to kiss their butts, too. I'm not referring to the morons who danced in the streets. Those people should be shot.
NY is so multi-cultural, and tolerant, and don't expect to see many bias incidents here.
Most, not all, but most will still go to the same Arab newsstand, street cart vendor, and still get into a cab even if an Arab is driving.
Others will go out of their way to avoid Arabs, and it's their right as an American to do so.
What truly scares me is the escalation of terrorism over the last few years. First the WTC bombing. Then Oklahoma City. US embassies and the USS Cole too. Finally last week's attack. What's next? The possibilities scare me.
What scares me is this...will the Americans still feel about our flag in a year from now when and if our loved ones come back in body bags ? i remember very well the peoples actions against our flag, and the way our troops were treated.....my son is in Korea and has had bomb threats to his base...so i am concerned.... a lot,but then again Bush has said we are at war,maby this will not be like Vietnam.....we must all stick together in this one, as war was never declared against Vietnam i hope and pray it will be a short war.
Also, I totally agree with Dubya about not persicuting Muslims and Arabs here. I've got some friends who own a grocery store who are Arab, and they've already told me of incidents. Remember, terrorism isn't true Muslim. It is a distored, twisted, anti-Muhammed Bizzaro Muslim that is Bullsh*t.
Consult my next posting about this. It's a MUST to read. It solves the mystery of the cause of the TRAGEDY of America.
As a Christian, (likewise myself), you'll be surprised and resolved at what you're reading. Please read it carefully and with Faith!
Railfan Pete.
>>> Consult my next posting about this. <<<
We really do not need trailers on this site (stay tuned for what's ahead). If you have something (that you think is) interesting to say, say it.
Tom
You didn't ge a chance to see Pete Bin Laden's post you are very lucky. It was long and hatefull.
It's okay, I guess ... but IMO nothing can take the place of the Twin Towers.
Also any spin-off, such as the 'TriTowers', or the famous 'Up Yours Towers', looks like a hideous mutation of the original twin.
Kind of like a person with three arms.
I heard on tv today that the onwer plans to rebuild the trade center by having four or five towers that are between 50 and 60 stories each. Of course, there will also be a memorial site in the area too.-Nick
He may not have the final say on what to build since he just has a lease for the buildings from the PA. The PA has not made any statments as to what they want to do on their land, nor has the city or state. The engineer that headed the original contruction wants to duplicate what was there but go for 130 stories. It seems to me that it would be easier and faster to use the same design.
In NY Post article Silverstein was talking about 4 shorter towers.
Arti
The real estate industry has been saying that businesses and buildings in Downtown shouldn't have to pay NYC taxes. They would continue to pay state taxes, which could be used outside the City. That is part of any recovery plan.
It certainly would be. I hope, however, that the PA exploits thirty years of advances in civil engineering to improve he building.
"The engineer that headed the original contruction wants to duplicate what was there but go for 130 stories. It seems to me that it would be easier and faster to use the same design."
I don't know if buildings should be this tall anymore. I know it would be looney to take the wrecking ball to the empire state building and sears tower, but why build more terror zones? However high they do go, I hope there are building maeterials available that are not as susceptable to high heat, so maybe if (God help us) this happens again the towers will not collapse. -Nick
If the builder has any sense, he would make a portion of the property as a memorial pavilian (perhaps a very LARGE model say 1/4 scale -- of the original towers with a plaque at the base with all the names of those who died in the attacks).
Also, there really isn't a PRACTICAL reason to build another set of towers at 110 or more stories tall -- except for emotional reasons --for use just primarily for insurance and stock companies, so I would think a set of two smaller towers would be in order which would include the memorial Twin Tower models inside a 'memorial park'. The park should include benches and paths with perhaps a small reflecting pool where people could meditate and pay respects.
BMTman
If safety is an issue maybe they should build 4 130 story towers but only occupy the first 50-60 floors. The petronas twin towers are setup that way.
I'm also kind of suspect at the office space requirements. 4 50-60 story towers would replace the space from the twin towers, but what about all the other buildings that were destroyed?
I don't think there will be enough demand to fill up all the square footage lost. Rents went down after the 1993 explosion, and the cheap insurance brokers went in.
Does anyone know the type of equipment chartered for the Congressional train?
Probably 1st class Acela equipment, nothing is too go for our Congressmen, especially if it is paid for by the tax payers
If it gives some otherwise anti-rail congressmen a good impression of high-speed rail, then I say go for it. Maybe they'll realize there are alternatives to air on a regional level. We've already seen what happens when we put all our eggs in one basket in the form of the airlines.
It's pretty sad how little talk there's been about investing in high-speed rail since this disaster, especially given how horribly vulnerable our air system has been proven to be.
-- David
Chicago, IL
"Probably 1st class Acela equipment, nothing is too go for our Congressmen especially if it is paid for by the tax payers"
Considering that Congress decides Amtrak's budget, what the heck is wrong with Amtrak serving Congress with their best and newest equipment so as to put their best foot forward?!?!?
The Republicans still want to liquidate Amtrak and eliminate all Federal subsidies for passenger rail, John McCain included. They're beginning to have second thoughts, tho'.
Even if National is reopened (and as 'The Airport of Congress', we can be sure it will), there will less service. The LGA-National air shuttles are probably dead, if only because of long security check-ins at either end.
Wonder if they got held on any sidings for intermodals to pass them? :)
Considering that Acela was mentioned, that rules out intermodels/double stacks due to the clearance with the trolley.
That ruled out DS for ConRail on the corridor, and the restrictive clearance in the Baltimore tunnels keeps CSX out too. They want to run DS, but not have to pay for the improvements. However, Maryland has already ruled out any bail-out for CSX.
My comment was more in the vein of "betcha that train WASN'T late." Amtrak has a nasty habit of being the lowest priority outside their own trackage, so I can see they'd be in no hurry to do favors for other railroads that screw Amtrak on their territory. But I'll bet the carload of sausage crafters attained record speed and there was probably more than Eagle snacks available for their stuffing of the face too. Probably even mixed drinks. :)
I'd have put them in the most beaten up Amcoach out of the yard and say, sorry, we need more capital. Then close the snack bar 2 hours before it reached NY to take inventory.
Does anyone here remember what the old Hudson Terminal was like? I know that the H&M was on a slightly higher level than the present PATH station is/was....Did the 8th Ave station empty directly into the terminal? And how far down was the IRT from the main HT concourse?
This is what I remember from a few trips to Hudson Terminal - the first being December 27, 1969:
We exited at Cortlandt pretty much where the existing s/b entrance is and I remember a corridor which lead to a kind of concourse with fare control. The ceiling was maybe 15 feet high and had dim flourescent light inside square fixtures; it was made of plaster and had leak spots on it. Once down on the platform (the one where the NWK train came in) I noticed white-tiled pillars, dim bulb lights and Casablanca fans! And the kicker at the south end - the platform itself was curved (only at the south end; the rest was pretty straight) Before long I got to see the show - "K" #1207 leading a screaming, howling "K"onsist into the station. I heard it long before it showed its headlights; it sounded like the banshees from Hell.
One thing else I noticed was a train of H&M "G" and "H" Black Cars (painted in yellow work livery) sitting on the inside track.
We left the same way we came in - screeching and screaming.
wayne
My memory places the entrance from the IND at a point behind the token booth (for the E) and towards the doors that are there now (I read somewhere that the doors and glass are still intact.) that went into the mall area of Building 5. However, someone on the board had said that the entrance was elsewhere.
I remember there was part of a Fulton Market there, not the one selling fish. Something more like maybe Essex St Market
the only thing i remember about husdon terminal is the snack bar had the worse hamburgers i have ever had!!
Pres. Bush has established a new cabinet post called Director of Homeland Security.
He has appointed Pennsylvania's governor Tom Ridge to the position. This will result in Ridge resigning as governor of Pennsylvania on Oct 5th.
That's not our governor. That Pennsylvania's governor.
- Lyle Goldman
Either Karl B is in Pennsylvania or Karl B is lost.
Access to this site is not restricted by the state line. If it were, our own host wouldn't be able to access it from home.
I have been a Pennsylvania resident for forty years.
Before that I lived in Brooklyn!
I live in Pa, and politics aside, he has been a pretty good governor these last six years!
Agreed. Ridge has proven to be a very effective leader. I give him hight marks for his stewardship of my native state, except with regard to that $100 tax rebate scheme. (No, the concept actually wasn't W's idea!) Mom & Dad still live in PA. They told me about some Philly area residents who organized a campaign to have people turn right around and send the $100 to the local school district, the idea being, "How can Ridge send us a rebate check when the schools are crumbling down around our children? The schools need that money." Of course, that actually fruitified the conservative notion that The People ought to be able to decide where to spend their money, not the government.
Coorect me if I'm wrong, but does PA have a Lieutenant Governor, and if it does, isn't the LT a Democrat, or do they (like Maryland) run on a combined ticket?
Yes, there is a Lt. Gov here/there in PA.
According to the Harrisburg Patriot News, "The 56-year-old Ridge will step down as governor Oct. 5, to be succeeded by Lt. Gov. Mark Schweiker for the 15-month remainder of his term."
Lt Gov. Schweiker is also a republican!
Thanks for the answer. MD & PA (no, not the railroad) do the same thing - run as a team. Keeps the party pols (in) happy, the other side not so.
Joke: How do you define a master Pennsylvania politician?
Anybody who can get PennDot under control.
I knew they were the same.
My wife was from Maryland originally.
As you know I am only about eight miles from the state line now!
You moved!! E-mail me your new address.
Last one I have had you in Gettysburg.
Whoa! I haven't heard this till now! I gotta check this out! I'm a Pennsylvanian!
Cool. Now all my friends in Philly public schools will get adequate funding:)
Kinda scary. Sounds like Minister of the Gestapo.
Instead of tossing the airlines billions to keep them afloat, why don't they spend considerably less and upgrade the railroad infrastructure? Bullet trains can go quite fast - the one in France did 320 mph (I don't know whether that's top speed or average), and given the speed, could get a person from NY/DC in probably less time than airlines (if you include all the boarding/security/delays that air travel entails). As for cross country, it would still be slower, but safer, and as most would agree, more comfortably.
And I'd be willing to bet that setting it up two routes - one for the East Coast, and one for crosscountry (NY - LA) would cost a HELL OF A LOT LESS than $14 billion.
sorry about the grammatical/spelling errors, I'm tired.
Also, another thing to add would be safety - people can't hijack planes because A - they can't be used as getaway vehicles to get out of the country, and B - you can't crash them into anything other than perhaps another train.
Actually, I can see that there's going to be concerns about possible terrorist attacks involving ramming speeding trains into terminals. The solution of course is to reorient the tracks near terminals into a dogleg so that if a train is speeding out of control into a terminal, the dogleg will derail it ... but certainly not as deadly a means as a plane loaded with jet fuel.
Certainly not a problem with the subway. The grade timers and wheel detectors ensure that no train is ever moving more than 5 or 10 MPH it seems these days.
You wrote:
>
> people can't hijack planes
>
WHAT????
ah, another one of those late night mistakes. I meant to say that trains can't be hijacked for those reasons.
Why not? Because time is money. Even the fastest train today can't compete with planes on cross country trips. Ridership shows that people will sacrifice comfort for speed. I think that high speed train service should upgraded to serve different regions of the country. Trains can compete with planes for intermediate distances (100-500 miles).
Makes sense of course, but I for one NEVER flew. Even on business. Had three "close calls" that cured me of flying. I'd take whatever penalties were required on business including personal time to take a train instead of a plane but that's just me.
If ANYTHING, hopefully this mess that we're in (with the new safeguards, you might actually get from point to point faster on the train now with all the time security measures will consume) might result in telecommuting and electronic meetings actually becoming practical despite the psychological downsides that have snuffed it so far.
In our own business, we're located way out in the sticks. We have folks work for us in the UK, in New Zealand, Canada and Germany. Hardly practical for face to face meetings and we do quite well actually since we built our company from the ground up on a basis of it doesn't matter where anyone is as long as we have email, our whiteboards and our internal instant messaging.
Going to be interesting to see how business adapts. And frankly, it's a WHOLE lot easier to work on a TRAIN with mobile computing and cellphone modems than on a plane. You don't have to shut off your computer in the middle of what you're doing so the engineer can operate safely. Then again, I s'pose I'm a heretic. :)
Flying is not dangerous at all. Crashing is.
I'll take the train. :)
Ditto. I've flown a lot over the past zillion years, on everything from 767s to planes that weren't too far advanced over the Wright Flyer, but I think the events of last week have cured me of ever getting on one again. Of course, when I start to think of how long it will take me to get to Arizona and my grandchildren, I may change my mind...
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
In some cases there simply aren't viable alternatives to flying such as flights across various oceans to other continents. Much as I hate flying on account of the high pitched noises (as an aside: becoming a railfan for me is partially attributable to too sensitive hearing) that make their way into jet plane cabins I do have to concede that it's the only practial way to visit the family in England.
-Robert King
I certainly agree, asking people to get overseas without airplanes would be impractical in this day and age. Ships cannot travel anywhere near the speed of planes, and rail travel across borders to Canada/Mexico would be tough to coordinate.
However, most flights are domestic anyway, so the logical thing to do for the country would be to prefer flying for international travel, and leave most domestic travel to high-speed trains.
"rail travel across borders to Canada/Mexico would be tough to coordinate."
Well, you might be right about Mexico, as the border controls would have to be tighter because of the greater drug smuggling and illegal immigrant traffic that crosses that border. But four Amtrak rail routes (that is, not counting Thruway buses) already cross the US-Canadian border every day:
1) one Cascades round-trip Seattle to Vancouver BC
2) International from Chicago to Toronto
3) Maple Leaf from New York City to Toronto
4) Adirondack from NYC to Montreal
>>> But four Amtrak rail routes (that is, not counting Thruway buses) already cross the US-Canadian border every day <<<
And do not forget the trolley which crosses from El Paso to Juarez.
There is no real problem with rail traffic crossing international borders. It is done in Europe all the time.
Tom
Ya know? It IS interesting that this has come to pass. It does demonstrate what some of us had been saying all along here about trains not getting the same fair shake as the airlines. And now with most of America looking to (gasp!) AMTRAK as the "safe way to go" it would seem that congrefs (proper spelling) isn't going to be able to kill the route of the pointless arrow so quickly now. A sad irony to our political priorities.
Maybe Amtrak can now get the funding for working locomotives, coaches that don't list to one side and perhaps the repair of those tunnels in and out of NYP? Am I hallucinating?
Why Not? Two simple reasons. First, the airline, oil and tourism industries contribute money to political campaigns, and therefore will receive a return on their "investment." Second, we are too used to the time and money saved by air travel, even with the added inconveniences. In summary, the business community and the public both want to fly (eventually, anyway), and congress will listen.
TGV's in Europe
Top speed-320 mph
Average speed-110-129 mph
New York city
Top speed(1,2,3,4,5,6,9):50-70 mph
Top speed(A,B,C,D,E,F,G,J,L,M,N,Q,R,S,Z)-Barely 50 mph
Average speed(All trains exept the shuttles)-25 mph
Average speed(Shuttles)-20 mph
What are you talking about?!?
First off, how do you compare the TGV to the subway? A more realistic comparison would be between the LIRR and TGV, and even that's not realistic. Subway lines are NOT the same as what 4thAvenueLocal was referring to, subway lines cannot replace Airlines, in case you didn't notice. He was referring to NATIONAL railways.
Indeed, all that information about subway speed was completely useless (I know, this is SUBTALK, but the topic here is railroads). However, the TGV info was helpful in putting the idea into some perspective.
If the average speed is only about 120 MPH, though, that means that a cross country trip (NYC-LA, approximately 4500 miles) would take at least 36 hours. At top speed all the way (320 MPH), it would still take 14.
And, since MrX mentioned them, the Times Square shuttle, if it for one reason or another decided to reroute to LA, would take 225 hours.
Conclusion: probably a little too slow for mainstream use.
Brighton Line lovers, if you haven't already seen this you should check this out: The MTA's site, history section. www.mta.nyc.ny.us/nyct/facts/ffhph32.htm. Shows a D-type on the southbound local tracks, signed up as a #1 (of course), but with B-type on southbound express tracks, the exact reverse of the weekday and Saturday services. What appears to be a reflective white circle on the left-hand gate of the front of the B-type, indicating that it must be the Franklin-Nassau Superexpress. Shadows to the west of the train indicate that the picture was taken in the morning hours. As the D-type was on the local tracks, must have been a Sunday morning. The photograph must be quite old as the 3rd rails do not have the protective wooden coverings over them. Anyone know when the third rails were given the coverings? That would give us a more limited time frame for this picture. Paul Matus, Ed Sachs, #1 Brighton Exp Bob, anyone out there perhaps can add to this?
The TA gives us a great big clue, since they credit Explorer [sic] Press, so the pic is probably from Jim Greller's Cars of the BMT. So we should just be able to read the caption. I have the book, but don't where I put it. Sorry about that.
I remember the third rails being moved and covered on the Brighton Line. Don't recall exactly when, but 1957-8 is a good educated guess.
Anyway, without knowing for sure, since they say it's heading for Coney Island (and it does indeed appear to be looking north from Albemarle Road), it's probably a Brighton Local D-Type and Brighton-Franklin or Franklin-Nassau B-Type on a Sunday morning about 1953. Up until about that time, D-types were used on the Brighton Local, not Express--though I don't know if they were so used on weekends. By the time I have a clear memory of the line (c.1954-5?) D-types were only used on the Brighton Local on Ebbetts Field specials. (not counting the Saturday Brighton-Franklin, which was signed "7").
Another minor possibility is that it's a weekday Brighton Local D-type pre-1953 with a returning Brighton special, which also used B-types and used the bulls-eye.
It's the IFC of Greller's Cars of the BMT. (Hope that link is OK).
Actually, the caption doesn't tell us any more. But it shows a bit more of the picture confirming that it's a view towards Church Ave. from Albemarle Road. Also, other similar pix make for a pretty firm date of 1953.
>http://xplorerpress.nyrt.com/xplorer/catbmt.html"
I don't know what's with this link. It previews OK then posts wrong.
The cut-and-paste link is:
http://xplorerpress.nyrt.com/xplorer/catbmt.html
Paul, thanks for the link! I hope they have the book in stock.
This same picture is also in the Frederick Kramer book "Unifying the Subways" on page 18. Caption reads: "The BMT's classic subway car types pass near Church Ave on the Brighton Beach Line on July 4th, 1953....."
--Mark
Mark, many thanks for the information with the date. So Paul was right on the money, 1953. July 4th, not a Sunday (as I thought) but a holiday!
"...returning Brighton special..."
Paul, there does seem to be someone at the railfan window. If so, then it was definitely in service.
I think that same picture is also in Frederick Kramer's new book "Unifying the Subways". I'll see what that caption says.
--Mark
What lines were they assigned to just before being retired?
I remember them on the (C) and (M) lines.
:-) Andrew
I know that the 27's-30's dominated the M line from the late 70's-80's. But by 1989, I seem to remember the M being exclusively 40-42's.
27's-30's also ran the C for sure. Even in the movie "Death Wish", we get to see them on the 8th Ave local.
But it's the final years of the 27-30 that is a mystery to me. They definitely did run on M line. I'm pretty sure that by fall 1989 the M, J, and L lines were all R40's.
I rode a R27's on the M in the fall of 1989. I was just taking a ride after school and I got one. I did not know what typew of cars they were since I never saw the type of door pocket they had. I remenber this day also becouse we sat between 55 and 50 street on the B. for two hour becouse someone fell off the train after they stoled a gold chain for a woman and try to clime off the train between the cars. The train was still moving slow becouse it just left the stop. The train hit the kid and he fell over the railing off the el and then got hit be a TA bus. Needless to say the kid is dead.
Robert
The rebuilt R-30s ended their careers on the C.
I still associate the R-27/30s with the QT and RR on the Southern Division and the JJ/QJ on the Eastern Division.
Another post to this subject says 27's/30's were on the M in Fall 1989, but I just don't seem to remember it that way. I remember all 40's. I also remember the rebuilds from 1986 on J, while the M had the R 16's that Fall.
This afternoon I wass waiting for a train at 14 St and a 1 came in. On the 3rd car was a sign for a 6 train. It wasn't against a green circle. It was on red. Does anyone know what that is all about?
Ever think it was simply an upside-down 9? Because that's exactly what it was.
-Hank
If I had seen upside-down 1, 2 and 3 signs, I would think so.
Do you always look for a complicated answer? The red 6 is simply a red 9 upside-down. That means the number on the inside of the car is also upside-down. I can't remember the order of the numbers on the sign, but I believe the interior number to be an upside-down 3.
-Hank
Hank is right. Case Closed.
ah but what of the red 6 markers on the r142s on the 6? what's that all about eh?? =)
Are you suggesting that the R-142's are all running upside-down?
YES. it's true. the r142s are running with new rails installed ont the tunnel ceilings. they all run upside down now.
right. =)
No wonder the seats are so uncomfortable -- they're actually the handrails.
Cheapness.
Absolutely. it looks silly.
hmm, let me get this straight, is there something wrong with the digital marks,or is this just a joke? -Nick
Those aren't as pretty.
Maybe you're right. Maybe it was just a 9 upside down. But consider for a moment. There are some IRT cars with 11, 12 and 13 signs. And some older IND cars that have V in a green circle. I took a picture of that several years ago, BTW. For that reason I don't accept something as un-complicated as just a number upside down it without wondering or asking.
"And some older IND cars that have V in a green circle. I took a picture of that several years ago,"
NO WAY ! Post that picture if you can.
Bill "Newkirk"
Well, if 6 turned out to be 9, I don't mind.
--Jimi Hendrix
www.forgotten-ny.com
Does anyone know the type of equipment chartered for the Congressional train?
Murphy's Law is alive and well here in New York. I thought about this today, when I reflected back on the horrors of September 11th. Just about everything that could go wrong, has gone wrong, in the worst possible way. Nothing has turned out well except for a few relatively minor exceptions.
When I first heard that an airplane had hit one of the towers, I though How awful, it must have been a terrible accident. Imagine if it were terrorism?
I was wrong.
Then I heard that the second tower had been it, and saw them both in flames. That settled the terrorism issue. But I thought These fires look bad, but the towers will be okay once they're put out. Look at how well the towers withstood the 1993 bombing, they'll withstand this too.
I was wrong, once more.
Then when I heard and saw the south tower fall, I thought At least the WTC will live on, albeit diminished. The fire on the north tower doesn't look nearly as bad.
I was wrong, for a third time.
When both towers were down, I figured There was plenty of time to evacuate the towers. Hopefully everyone got out safe.
Six thousand disintegrated corpses show how wrong I was.
Once the enormity of the tragedy became clear, not to mention the terrorism aspect, I said to myself With any luck, these'll be homegrown terrorists as with Oklahoma City. We won't have to face a tough battle with the world's worst terrorists and their Afghan backers.
How many "wrong" am I up to, five?
Finally, when the stock market reopened on Monday, I figured that There will be a patriotic rally and the nation would get back to business.
Instead, we're learning what "capitulation" means.
In short, events have turned out worse than anyone can imagine. I suppose there are a few semi-positive events - the nation's become more united, damage to buildings around the WTC was a lot less than feared, and of course the subway's performed better than anyone daared expect on September 11th. But these are fairly minor things. Everything else, it's been one nightmare after another.
How m
Actually, the hijackers didn't achieve what was probably their primary objective, the destabilization of the government.
This objective explains the multiple strikes at approximately the same time and the lack of claims of responsibility.
I haven't posted on the board since before 9/11, so I thought I'd let any SubTalker who might be wondering know that I and my wife and our families are okay. We do, however, know of some of the victims through friends and are deeply saddened by the tragedy. Our prayers go out to anyone else who was affected by this crime against our city, country, and indeed, the world.
I wanted to point out in this thread that it is not just the stock market which feels the ripple effect from this tragedy. I will illustrate with a microcosmic example. My office building in midtown contains a public mall area with shops and restaurants, which usually bustles with activity every day. Since the disaster, the powers that be have closed all of the six or more entrances to the concourse save the one nearest the main office tower. No one is permitted to access the shopping atrium unless they have a building I.D. or are escorted by someone who does. I am certain the small business merchants in the atruim are taking a bath financially.
Here's another ripple. An article in yesterday's Times reported on the hit the tourism industry is taking in places like Disneyworld and Las Vegas. This includes not only the airlines and hotels, but also the ancilliary travel-related small businesses, like taxi drivers, retail shop owners, etc.
Tourism is getting hammered here too. A friend of mine was recently cast as a replacement in the Broadway musical "Kiss Me, Kate," which was set to close around the New Year. Instead, it closed on Sunday, so my friend is out of a job. In fact, there were a slew of Broadway shows which gave up last week. There will be many actors out of work now, and the jobs which they traditionally do in between acting gigs, like temping and waiting tables, are drying up due to the tragedy as well.
The effects of this tragedy are only beginning to be felt, and I believe almost no one in the New York City area will emerge unscathed by this heinous crime against the country, not to mention humanity. In this respect, the terrorists have already partially achieved their aim. Down the road, as the economy gets worse, the terrorists goal of altering our "way of life" will occur. It has already.
Furthermore, what will happen when we begin to bomb a country which is already in the Stone Age? What will we possibly accomplish besides further inciting the fanatics who already hate us to more violence? For every bin Laden we get, ten more will show up to take his place. I'm not saying nothing should be done, but I hope the "war" against terrorism is fought smartly. I have no plan myself, of course, but I'm not sure I trust the government to do this thing right. After all, the last non-zero-casualty-non-air-strike-only-years-long military action we had was Vietnam, and look how that turned out. Again, I certainly want to retaliate as much as most of the country, but I want it to be efficient and, more importantly, effective.
This country is so dependent on a service economy, and a service economy depends on consumer confidence and a stable transportation and communications infrastructure. These two things are not as stable as they were prior to September 11, and that, my friends, may be the beginning of a long, painful haul for the United States. I hope I'm wrong.
I wanted to point out in this thread that it is not just the stock market which feels the ripple effect from this tragedy. I will illustrate with a microcosmic example. My office building in midtown contains a public mall area with shops and restaurants, which usually bustles with activity every day. Since the disaster, the powers that be have closed all of the six or more entrances to the concourse save the one nearest the main office tower. No one is permitted to access the shopping atrium unless they have a building I.D. or are escorted by someone who does. I am certain the small business merchants in the atruim are taking a bath financially
You've described the sort of silly over-reaction that hopefully will die down before long. I mean really, restricting access to building employees won't make the slightest bit of difference. Remember that the WTC had been one of the most secure multi-tenant building complexes in the city, courtesy of the 1993 bombings, with stringent restrictions on public access. Not that it mattered. There could've been an armored division encamped around the WTC on September 11th and it wouldn't have made a whit of difference.
Management of your building is probably grasping at straws in an attempt to show that they're doing something in response to the terror attacks. Not only is it an empty gesture, it's also bad for the merchants as you point out. It's all silly, and with any luck cooler noggins will prevail soon.
This country is so dependent on a service economy, and a service economy depends on consumer confidence and a stable transportation and communications infrastructure. These two things are not as stable as they were prior to September 11, and that, my friends, may be the beginning of a long, painful haul for the United States. I hope I'm wrong.
Maybe I'm just trying desparately to put a positive spin on things, but it's too early to tell whether the all-powerful U.S. consumer is going to snap his wallet shut. That's the favorite prognostication of economists, of course, but then again I put economic forecasters on a level with Madame Cleo. As terrible as these events may be, there is no reason why they should interfere with the daily lives of all but a few Americans. Life does and, more importantly, should go on. Bush has so far been quite reassuring in this context. I hope he keeps repeating the message.
Needless to say, this carry-on spirit is not shared by the ignorant treasonous schmucks who've made capitulation a reality on Wall Street. They are truly a national disgrace. It's worth noting that at least according to some reports the heavy panic selling is most pronounced among institutional investors such as pension plans and mutual funds. Thank God that individuals appear to be more level-headed. I guess that when you're investing Other People's Money, it's easier to panic-sell and suffer huge losses.
. I'm not saying nothing should be done, but I hope the "war" against terrorism is fought smartly. I have no plan myself, of course, but I'm not sure I trust the government to do this thing right. After all, the last non-zero-casualty-non-air-strike-only-years-long military action we had was Vietnam, and look how that turned out. Again, I certainly want to retaliate as much as most of the country, but I want it to be efficient and, more importantly, effective.
I was too young to really understand most of the Vietnam War, except for its last few years, but from what I've gathered the main problem facing the United States was the lack of anything remotely approaching a consensus on the justification for the mission. The administration never quite succeeded in convincing most of the country that yes, we had a very good reason for being there. It should go without saying that there are very few similar doubts with respect to exterminating Bin Laden and overthrowing the Taliban.
>>> Management of your building is probably grasping at straws in an attempt to show that they're doing something in response to the terror attacks. <<<
I am seeing that at the Federal Building in downtown Los Angeles. Since the Oklahoma City bombing there has been a security checkpoint with metal detectors. This is a building with both the IRS and the INS seeing many members of the public every day. Even before the events of September 11th, it took about ten minutes to get in early in the morning and after the lunch hour. Now it takes up to half an hour. The rent-a-cops manning the security checkpoint are looking at the scans of packages more closely, which is good, but now they are requiring everyone entering the building to show some sort of picture identification. I have to wonder what they expect. Do they think someone is going to use his ID card from the Brotherhood of International Terrorists? Keep in mind that they have no watch list, and they do not keep a record of everyone entering. The checking of the picture ID's does nothing but slow down the line as people fumble for ID.
When I was there the other day, the first thing I found was my VA identification card which has my picture, name, and Social Security number on a waving American flag background. If nothing else, it proves I once served my country in the armed forces (along with patriots such as Lee Harvey Oswald and Timothy McVey). The guard would not accept that so I looked further and came up with the card with a picture issued by the local MTA indicating I am entitled to a disabled fare on buses. This too was not good enough. I finally found my California driver's license, which the guard just gave the most casual glance and waved me through. I am not aware of the California DMV having a terrorist screening program, so just seeing that I had a driver's license did nothing to help security, and since hundreds of foreigners, including some trying to adjust their status come to the INS in the building every day, and many of them do not have a driver's license, what is this security check trying to prove?
Next door, at the Federal Courthouse where the security is handled by marshals who are all retired police officers, this has not happened, and the security level which was always high remains the same. The only difference which I can see, which I do not understand, is a prohibition of using (but not carrying) cellular phones anywhere in the courthouse.
Tom
This is a lot different from Viet Nam. In Viet Nam we were essentially chasing a theoretical goal half the world away. We pretended that there were clearly defined good guys and bad guys and that we were only helping a popular indiginous government defend itself. This all got through to the troops who, except for the early days, were not shown "why we fight" movies but instead were told that your job is to do the best you can and keep yourself alive for your one-year tour.
Largely unsaid in all this is that we took a vacation from reality starting in 1993, when the WTC was bombed the first time--we viewed the crime on the basis of the actual result (no permanent damage and, IIRC, 6 killed) rather than on the bombers' intent. which was to have one or both buildings collapse. They were too ignorant of the physics of it to realize that bombing the base of the building in the manner that they did would not bring the building down.
We responded to that in the fashion that many are recommending now and that became the standard response through the remainder of the '90s--catch the underlings responsible, try them nice and neat in federal court--none of them even got the death penalty which, it was argued, might have made them martyrs. Oh, also sent some Cruise missles against some tents in the desert. We even waged a war against a former WWII ally to help a Muslim minority carve out a safe enclave in a soverign nation.
Did this gain the U.S. the respect of the bombers' cohorts? Did it cool the fevers by avoiding creating the "ten more [who] will show up to take [their places]"?
We got our answer September 11.
Furthermore, what will happen when we begin to bomb a country which is already in the Stone Age?
The government has not announced this as policy. The bombing from on high was the policy of the last administration, carried out most extensively in former Yugoslavia. So far I have only seen this proposed by very angry people who want revenge and by opponents of any action who are using it as a straw man.
A great unsaid, which perhaps people don't want to face, is--what makes you believe that the bombing of the WTC and Pentagon and the other targets not gotten (at least one more) are the end of the process? Why do you think that a soft response, a few more air martials, and lofty expressions of American principals will prevent the next wave of bombings? Or chemical attack? Or biological attack?
The attackers didn't even make demands. What do you think will prevent the next attack? Are we supposed to guess what will make them happy?
I'm sorry your friend lost his job. It gets worse than that. Much much worse.
A great response, thank you Paul.
Peace,
ANDEE
A great unsaid, which perhaps people don't want to face, is--what makes you believe that the bombing of the WTC and Pentagon and the other targets not gotten (at least one more) are the end of the process? Why do you think that a soft response, a few more air martials, and lofty expressions of American principals will prevent the next wave of bombings? Or chemical attack? Or biological attack?
I'm not sure you understand that I am agreeing with you here. None of these things you mention, nor a bombing or other military campaign, will prevent these maniacs from striking again. I'm not for a "soft response," I'm for an effective one.
A great unsaid, which perhaps people don't want to face, is--what makes you believe that the bombing of the WTC and Pentagon and the other targets not gotten (at least one more) are the end of the process? Why do you think that a soft response, a few more air martials, and lofty expressions of American principals will prevent the next wave of bombings? Or chemical attack? Or biological attack?
The attackers didn't even make demands. What do you think will prevent the next attack? Are we supposed to guess what will make them happy?
A chilling thought, and something that hasn't escaped my mind since the attack. Simply put, it's scary living in New York and America today.
The bottom line is, we have to do something. If we leave al-Qaida intact, they will only become ever stronger, and God knows what they might do in the future. To destroy that network completely, and every other major terrorist organization, is a lofty goal indeed. And the costs in retailation could be heavy. But it is our only choice.
Andrew
When I step back and view this whole mess at WTC, it all started with 2 planes flown into each building. I was shocked when 110 stories of each office tower came down. We've all seen implosion videos when old building were demolished. But this was way different, there was people in these buildings. Around 5000 of them who met their fate either by building collapse or a few who jumped out of the top most windows.
When the two buildings were flattened, they brought down surrounding buildings and doing untold damge to the surroundings and infrastructure. And now the downward spiraling economy. It all started with two planes !
What gets me about this whole mess is with the questionable airport security that prevents normal people from entering with any kind of belt buckle etc, didn't prevent hijackers with stolen pilot uniforms and bogus IDs from boarding the ill fated planes. I heard on CNN the other night that EL AL, the airline of Israel, had hijacker proof cockpit doors since 1976 and they advised our airlines about doing the same. Naturally our airlines weren't interested, otherwise beefed up hijacker proof doors would be standard issue today. Let's also not forget minimum wage airport security with a high turnover rate.
Bill "Newkirk"
>>> didn't prevent hijackers with stolen pilot uniforms and bogus IDs <<<
As far as I can tell, these hijackers used neither uniforms nor bogus IDs to board the planes.
Tom
I was looking at a posting in the Straphangers Campaign bulletin/discussion board and someone had mentioned that when the
R-62s get over to the Flushing line that there is going to be an 11 train (I guess for the express).
Has anyone heard something along these lines?
(I know the R62 roll signs have an 11 so you don't have to point that out)
I doubt it. They'll probably just use the diamond <7> like they've been doing.
:-) Andrew
I have also heard this that the 11 will be the 7 express. And they probably will stop with the Diamond 7 because Most Motormen fail to change the sign. I have seen circle 7s on exp and diamonds on local. it gets to be too confusing. Also i too have seen the 11 sign. it is the same color as the 7. This is how u know there is gonna be some sort of involvement with the 7. Note colors are same
The 11 has been on there since 1986. The probably won't do the change because the 142s can't show numbers higher than 9. They would run into a problem if they ever needed / wanted to run one on the 7.
Then again, they could build a casino out by Main Street and the old 7/11 combo would be craps any way you tossed 'em. :)
Well I doubt It will be a VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY Long time before you can see a R142 on the (7) based on the fact that the R142s have contact shoe problems on the Corona Line. The Shoe and the 3rd Rail barely meet! For what reason this happens, its unknown.
Also I've heard several accounts of the (11) taking the place on the <7>.
Regards,
Trevor Logan
www.transitalk.com
And they probably will stop with the Diamond 7 because Most Motormen fail to change the sign.
If they failed to change the signs there they would fail to change the signs with the 7-11 as well. The same happens with the 1-9 and the J-Z, some motormen just don't like changing signs.
My impression is that crews simply aren't given enough time to change signs in more than two or three cars.
Maybe the TA should bring back the route knobs (as still found on most Redbirds, although not on the 7) and ask passengers to assist. (Some passengers -- many here, I presume -- will assist in novel ways.)
I haven't seen an "11" sign yet on a Flushing line train. I'll be on the lookout and if I do see one I'll let everyone know on "Sub Talk"
#3 West End Jeff
You won't find an 11 on any Flushing line train now because the 7 is still all Redbirds and the rollsigns on the Redbirds don't have numbers higher than 7. Only R62s/62As have rollsigns with numbers higher than 7. When the R62As will go to the 7 is anyone's guess.
I'm sure that someone will make a mistake and set the roll sign to "11" rather than "7".
#3 West End Jeff
Cool -- the 7/11 line.
Oh! Thank heaven!
Anyone for a game of Craps?
I personally think it would be a good idea to use the alternate numbers (#8, #10, #11) for the Diamond 6, Diamond 5 and Diamond 7. From my own persepctive it is easier to spot the express by its alternate number - they are supposed to use the Diamond sign but they don't always do it, especially on the #7. A purple #11 sign would leave no doubt as to what it was.
wayne
A commentary by Paul Farrell of cbsmarketwatch.com:
Besides, from a psychological standpoint, now is not the best time to make any major decisions. Most American investors, who are still in a state of shock from last week's tragedy, should focus instead on what's really important. And right now, that's just about anything other than panic selling
I wish every investor in America could be forced to read this.
the sellers will be kicking themselves in due time. me, i'm going to pick up some discounted company stock myself. when you can get soemthing for around $15, that'll be back to being worth about $30 in a few months, you'd be stupid not to buy at least a little.
I believe it was Baron Rothschild who stated that "the time to buy stock is when there's blood running in the streets."
>>> i'm going to pick up some discounted company stock myself. when you can get soemthing for around $15, that'll be back to being worth about $30 in a few months <<<
Of course it is even better if you can short sell the stock at $15 and cover the short and buy in at $5 and then see it rise to $30 in a few months. That is a really good return on investment.
I fear that Mr. Rosa, and others (who have only experienced an extended bull market) who claim that those selling stocks are not patriotic have a basic misunderstanding of the purpose and workings of the stock market.
Tom
i'm going to pick up some discounted company stock myself. when you can get soemthing for around $15, that'll be back to being worth about $30 in a few months
Of course it is even better if you can short sell the stock at $15 and cover the short and buy in at $5 and then see it rise to $30 in a few months. That is a really good return on investment.
Of course, if you short sell the stock at $15 and it immediately rises to $30, that strategy doesn't quite look so good.
I fear that Mr. Rosa, and others (who have only experienced an extended bull market) who claim that those selling stocks are not patriotic have a basic misunderstanding of the purpose and workings of the stock market.
I have been around a bit longer than that, and yes I do understand how the stock market works. And I also know that last week's capitulation was not based on any form of knowledge or understanding at all, but rather on the most primitive sort of fear and emotion.
>>> last week's capitulation was not based on any form of knowledge or understanding at all, but rather on the most primitive sort of fear and emotion. <<<
But that is what always drives the market. All market analysts talk about "investor confidence." It is the major driving force of the stock market. When the great mass of investors think that profits will continue to grow without ever stopping, or think dot coms which have never turned a profit will be a big success they buy stocks (with "irrational exuberance") and prices go up, sometimes with no logical reason. When the great mass of investors are fearful of what the future may bring they sell, or fail to buy, which drives prices down. The smart investors who make money in both bull and bear markets count on that and try to stay ahead of the masses both going up and down. Thus has it always been. The stock market does not cause good or bad economic times, it reflects them, and it would be irrational for those who believe there is going to be an economic downturn to continue buying for patriotic reasons.
Tom
I agree with your analysis. If you're heavily invested in the market, there is incentive for you to try to preserve as much of your wealth as possible by moving to safer instruments.
My portfolio suffered a bit over the past several months; interestingly the WTC disaster only affected one of my stocks in any significant way. My response was to hold tight on the others and watch; I bought more of the one affected stock because it is of a sound company with excellent long-term prospects and a good business - and I bought another solid company which I couldn't afford before, but now is a bargain! I see it gaining within 1-2 years, but we'll see...
The Internet provider for my office has been down ever since The Day After, and my home provider, AOL, has been extremely hard to access, so this is the first time I can get into Subtalk. It looks like everyone here is okay- something to be glad about.
Most fortunately, I don't seem to be missing anyone, nor does anyone in my immediate acquaintance. Just seeing the entire horrible sequence of events happen live through my office window in Long Island City opposite the UN is traumatic enough. Having been on the observation deck many times, and having taken many photos from it, I do get a feeling of loss- although nothing compared to those who have lost family and friends there. Buildings are expendable; people aren't.
It also gives me pause to realize that on August 23, less than three weeks earlier, a bunch of us gathered at the Sbarro's in the concourse to embark on our farewell trip to the Newark PCCs. Little did we realize it would be the last time most of us would ever be in the complex! The servers we bought pizza from may very well be among the casualties.
Somehow I managed to ride the subway every day since. My office was evacuated at noon on the day itself, but we've been open every day since. On the morning of Thursday the 13th, the radio reported a suspension of '7' service between Flushing and Shea (later revealed to be a bomb scare), so I drove to Forest Hills and rode an extremely empty 'F' train. Every other work day has seen normal rush hour service- actually better than normal due to many businesses being closed last week and the Jewish holidays this week.
On the weekend, trains were more crowded than during the week, in large part because of the loss of service and all the subsequent reroutes. Saturday, on a rerouted Brooklyn-bound R-46 'R' over the Bridge- a rarity in itself- people appeared to get very emotional when the tragically edited view of the skyline appeared. Many people were on the walkway snapping pictures. The Brooklyn Bridge looked empty of pedestrians. Normally they're quite visible from the Manny B.
A scare took place later on an inbound 'F' train when the conductor forgot to turn on the lights entering the tunnel- something I've NEVER seen happen before on any line. Some teenagers in the car started yelling out that we were under attack- and laughing. At Church Avenue, some passengers jumped out on the platform and yelled angrily at the crew to turn on the &*#$%@% lights. The rest of the ride was normal, including a sad ride over the Smith-9th viaduct.
My wife wanted to partake in the impromptu memorial gatherings, so on Sunday we went to the Brooklyn Heights Promenade and Washington Square Park. By that time the '5' was running through the stricken area, and as a macabre bonus, provided weekend service to Brooklyn to supplement the '4'. As we approached Brooklyn Bridge, the conductor announced he was shutting off the air-conditioning before we proceeded downtown. (The freon issuing from the cooling system must pose a fire hazard, I suppose.) We crawled all the way to Bowling Green, skipping Wall but stopping at Fulton, where a strong odor of smoke persisted. Whatever conversation was taking place among passengers abruptly stopped at this point.
After the Promenade, we entered High Street and got an mostly empty inbound 'E', which most people on the platform refused to board. It crawled through Chambers Street without stopping, but the A/C stayed on. The WTC stub terminal platform appeared deserted. It was business as usual at Washington Square- even the regular street performers and 'salesmen' were doing their thing. Afterward, the conductor on the '6' we rode up to Grand Central announced that there was no transfer at 51st Street due to track work. Were they REALLY having the 63rd Street detour that weekend, of all times?! One would think that with all the confusion, an attempt would be made to try to keep service as normal as possible.
Both days of Rosh Hashanah, Rob and I took long-planned rides on the new Newark LRVs and the Brighton express. (We had also planned to go to our favorite playground in Hudson River Park by the Financial Center and N.Y. Waterway terminal- try explaining to a first-grader that you just can't go everywhere you want anymore!) While we benefited from direct PATH service from 33rd to Newark, I shuddered to see the switches leading from Pavonia and Grove to Exchange blocked off by red lights on the trackbed.
For some reason, the LRV we were on was stopped in its return trip at Norfolk Street for ten minutes, which meant my 45 minutes would be up before we got back to Newark Penn Station. This had me worried that I would be fined, but nobody was checking when we got off. Many times there had been an inspector at the bottom of the stairs. When we initially got on at Penn, there was a very aggressive inspector on the platform whose presence seemed to confuse some people to no end.
It was very odd seeing R32s on the Brighton local, despite the fact that the Brightliners were regulars from their 1964 inception till around 1979 when the incumbent 'D' became predominately Mod 40s and 42s. For the first few months after The Great 1997 Equipment Swap, the weekday 'Q' express had a few 32s mixed in with the Slants, but it soon became pure Slants- except in the summer of 1999 (Willy B closure) when R42s appeared there.
Real confusion reigned at 23rd/7th as '1's flew by on the express, but '2's and '3's stopped. Surprisingly, the automated announcements on the 142 we got actually gave the correct local stops. During past weekend GOs on the West Side, any 142 I was on required the intervention of a live conductor to announce that local stops were being made. Apparently there were no signs at Penn Station, because people were making mad dashes down from the express platform when they saw their accustomed trains stopping on the local platforms.
Passengers all along lower Broadway seemed unaware of the suspension of 'N' and 'R' service, because there were huge, annoyed crowds all the way from Lexington to Union Square. Many shouts of "Where is this train going?" and "What IS this?!" could be heard. One woman at 57th Street actually asked a worker how to get to the Trade Center. He patiently explained that there was no service. She asked why. He patiently explained that the World Trade Center no longer exists. She asked why. A passerby angrily explained that it fell down. She looked utterly baffled by this revelation, which in turn utterly baffled everyone else nearby.
I'm planning to see what's running on the 'J' and 'M' this weekend. Does it seem morbid to take a recreational interest in all these changes that were brought about by such a tragedy? Are we being exploitative? There's no lack of exploitation from this whole episode. I've seen a number of street vendors with signs reading "World Trade Center T-Shirts", while they're actually selling white T-shirts with the American flag on them. The equation must be: World Trade Center= American flag= $$$. I feel like telling these people that if they're going to try to make money off this, they could at least properly identify their merchandise.
The quantity and hyperbole of loud religious zealots in the subway system and on the streets has certainly increased. More than one preacher has asserted that this happened because Jesus wanted it to, and that unless we all embrace Jesus, there will be more such occurrences. Such declarations nearly led to a fistfight on the 'F' train but for the presence of several cops.
On the positive side, the usual pushing and snarling is less apparent when a train is late or overcrowded. Strangers are making small talk and attempting to assist those with canes, walkers or strollers on stairways. There's not much barking about how nobody speaks English anymore or that there are too many foreigners.
It's good to have the Internet back again, but after all that's happened, you realize that it's foolish to complain about such inconveniences- whether it be no Internet, no cable, a late train, your team losing, or anything less than what the families of over 6,000 people are enduring.
I haven't had time to catch up on all the postings, but here's hoping that none of us has lost anyone.
It also gives me pause to realize that on August 23, less than three weeks earlier, a bunch of us gathered at the Sbarro's in the concourse to embark on our farewell trip to the Newark PCCs. Little did we realize it would be the last time most of us would ever be in the complex! The servers we bought pizza from may very well be among the casualties.
Interestingly, today's Times has a picture of the interior of the Sbarro's in the WTC concourse. Everything looks dust-covered but otherwise intact.
I would imagine that the Sbarro's workers (if the place were open that early) would have been able to get out safely, along with everyone else in the concourse.
Link: Dust covered Sbarros
Caption says looters were active through this past wednesday. The next slide shows a cash register someone tried to pry open. The very few heartless people out there....
Probably the same type of people who were trying to auction WTC parts off on e-bay by the night of Sept. 11.
Probably the same type of people who were trying to auction WTC parts off on e-bay by the night of Sept. 11.
EBay promptly shut down the auctions and put WTC debris on the forbidden list. So now you know the answer to the question, What does WTC debris have in common with dirty underwear, child pornography and human feces?
One woman at 57th Street actually asked a worker how to get to the Trade Center. He patiently explained that there was no service. She asked why. He patiently explained that the World Trade Center no longer exists. She asked why. A passerby angrily explained that it fell down. She looked utterly baffled by this revelation
And what City Council seat is she running for?
Maybe she just hit the planet. (If you are traveling at warp (faster than light) speeds, the TV and Radio broadcasts (lightspeed) don't show up.)
>>> "World Trade Center T-Shirts", while they're actually selling white T-shirts with the American flag on them. <<<
At least they are not selling white T-shirts with nothing on them. :-)
Tom
I was just thinking last night on the new changes to Stillwell in CI. A couple of months ago you had the B-D-F-N lines, now we have the F-M-Q-W Only the F remains for now
Good ol' Rutgers Street tunnel - may not be the fastest way to Coney Island, but it's reliable.
Let's see
July 21 2001-B,D,F,N
August 21 2001-W,Q,F,N
September 2001-W,Q,F,M
Now 10 years
1960's-B,D,F,M,N,QJ(or QB I forgot),NX,TT
1970's-B,D,F,M,N,Q whatever
1980's-B,D,F,M,Q,N
1990's-B,D,F,N
2000-This is set into 4 parts
1.B,D,F,N
2.W,N,Q,F
3.W,M,Q,F
4.W(in 2002)
2000-This is set into 4 parts
1.B,D,F,N
2.W,N,Q,F
3.W,M,Q,F
4.W(in 2002)
So Far, You mean
Some comments on your 1960's listing:
(Order: Sea Beach, West End, Culver, Brighton)
Post-Chrystie:
N, B, F, D/QJ/MJ
Pre-Chrystie:
N, T/TT, D, QB/QT
I just heard that the developer for the towers will rebuild on the site but possibly only several bldgs, 50 or 60 floors high. I personally think they should rebuild them but have the original 110 floors or possibly higher, to show those a-holes that blew them apart we can come back stronger and better. I'm sure NYC will offer all kinds of tax incentives to fill it back up....thoughts anyone?
It's way premature to be making any such decision now.
Agreed. Plans are just now being put together.
Tax breaks will most likely be part of the deal. Real estate developers will be looking for that, in part to draw businesses back over from NJ.
You wanna work on the 109th floor ? Guarantee they will ram a 777 into it the 1st day. There is nothing to prevent a fire from 10,000 gallons of jet fuel. Those buldings were ugly firetraps, period. I would never over the last 20 years even considered a job-intevwiew in them.
This means that you'll never work in any building higher than 10 floors, right? Because if there are nothing but smaller buildings, terrorists will just hit those. Take your pick.
The terrorists had a boyle in their ass about ripping down THOSE 2 popsicles as symbols of Amercan capitalismn and they did it. Non-descript 40-50 floor buildinggs were not targets, which is not to say that the Disney World and the Sears Tower aren't on their shitlist either. and It would be pretty hard to fly a plane into any of them except those right on the Hudson or East River.
It's interesting that they picked a target in a city full of immigrants, full of people from everywhere, including their home countries.
Why, for example, didn't they attack Boeing's jetliner factories in Washington state, which are America's #1 exporter? Or Newport News, where aircraft carriers are built?
If only the Pentagon had been attacked instead of both it and the World Trade Center I think you would see far less unity in the nation today than you do now, because the Pentagon is considered a military target, even though civillains on board the United Airlines jet were among the victims.
I don't think less unity would have been right, but remember, there are some people out there who don't even want to do anything now, with over 6,500 people dead, mainly because they had no personal connection with anyone who was a victim in the WTC attack -- Barbara Lee's so-called "couragous vote" would have had a lot more meaning with me if the terrorists had attacked the San Francisco-Oakland area and killed a few thousand of her constituants.
Voting "no" on U.S. military action then really would have been a couragous act. Voting "no" when the attacks occurred 3,000 miles away is a political play where Ms. Lee and (she is hoping) her consituants treat the attacks like one of those Sri Lankan or East Timor rebel terrorist attack stories the New York Times sticks at the bottom of Page 19-A next to the five column Macy's ads -- it's tragic, but it didn't really affect us, so who gives a f**k what those people do, we're all safe and sound here and so long as they don't target us, this really isn't worth losing a single American life in combat over.
"I don't think less unity would have been right, but remember, there are some people out there who don't even want to do anything now, with over 6,500 people dead, mainly because they had no personal connection with anyone who was a victim in the WTC attack -- Barbara Lee's so-called "couragous vote" would have had a lot more meaning with me if the terrorists had attacked the San Francisco-Oakland area and killed a few thousand of her constituants."
If Rep. Lee had voted against her colleagues after a jetliner exploded at UC Berkeley, I would respect her right to do so, but I would also respect her constituents' right to throw her out of office at the next election!
Which is my point -- courage means a lot more the more closely connected you and your voters are to the tragedy. The only thing I can think of that would be remotely similar is if Ms. Lee had voted against relief funds for the Bay Area after the 1989 quake that collapsed the double-decked freeway in Oakland and killed about 55 people.
>>> Barbara Lee's so-called "couragous vote" would have had a lot more meaning with me if the terrorists had attacked the San Francisco-Oakland area and killed a few thousand of her constituants. <<<
Did none of you read her explanation for her vote? Do none of you remember the Gulf of Tonkin resolution?
Tom
I read the explanation for her vote. Irespect her right to vote this way, and I think under different circumstances, she could lose her seat.
Your comparison to the Gulf of Tonkin is not entirely valid. That was a manufactured incident, and if it had occurred, it involved strictly military personnel sent into harm's way.
This was real - and involved helpless civilians.
Just FYI, the Los Angeles Times has an op-ed piece in Sunday's paper by CUNY professor Drew Limsky refuting the Tonkin Gulf/Taliban argument in pretty similar fashion to your statement.
Of war...
I am not in favor of retribution. I am in favor of securing public safety. If we must go overseas and use military force to achieve that, so be it.
I have some serious reservations about the way Israel has been handling (or rather, mishandling) the Palestinian situation, so I disagree with some of the things the article's author says about that. But that doesn't justify terrorism, in our country or anywhere else, and I believe in decisively responding to it.
The proper action lies somewhere between a blanket retrobution, which only a few on the far right seem to be advocating, and no action at all, which seems to be the far left's territory. Just going in there and bombing everything is a guarentee that the Law of Unintended Consequences will bite you back hard a few years down the line, while doing nothing is so obviously Neville Chamberlain-ish there's no need to explain what the future consequences will be. I'm not in favor of the mindless, continued repetition of the video of the plane crashing into the WTC or the collapse of the buildings, but when anyone gets on TV and starts spouting this line, the video footage should be replayed on a split-screen just to remind everyone what they're saying the United States should ignore.
>>> Your comparison to the Gulf of Tonkin is not entirely valid. That was a manufactured incident <<<
Whether or not the Tonkin incident was manufactured, the result was the Congress giving the president a blank check to do whatever he wanted without a declaration of war. Although the WTC was clearly not manufactured by our government, it is still a valid question as to whether the president should be given a blank check to strike whomever he wants wherever he wants without any congressional oversight. In our system it is Congress that has the power to declare war. We all hope the president will use the power delegated to him wisely.
Tom
With all this new airport security, and with last Tuesday as a reference, there's a much lesser chance that will happen again.
By your logic, no one will ever fly again, correct?
Plus, logically, the terrorists won't go for the top floors. They'll go for the lower ones, to seperate more people from the ground (can't climb down if the stairs are destroyed down on 50), and to force the heavier weight to cause a faster collapse.
I never cared for the lack of a central suport system in the Twin Towers. Also they weren't that wide. The Twin towers weren't the most attractive buildings either, bland,etc. Also I heard that on a windy day there was movement at the top, and some people became sick. That doesn't happen in the Empire State Building.
A modern building that has been re-enforced several times is the Citicorp tower on 53rd street.
Nonetheless after September 11th I probably will never be able to visit a tall building. I'm even nervous being near them.
Tall buidlings do sway because they have to, it is one of the civil enginieering law nowadays. The law said 360ft tall building must allow a 1 foot sway. Water tank on the top floor will minimize it, but this is the law. Heavy structure like Empire State build ing is an old-fashion. I don't think the ESB can withstand with an imfact from a 767.
If you are afraid of going or working above the 10th floor, sorry, you better don't go to Hong Kong. Since an ordinary apartment is at least 20-stroies high, the newest ones are mostly 40-stories high. Of course in such enviorment, the staircase of an ordinary fire engine(truck) can reach to 15 floor. Some of them can mergely reach to the 19th floo.r
"The Twin towers weren't the most attractive buildings either, bland,etc"
I agree. While the twin towers were impressive for their magnificent height, I have always found the empire state building to have more class because of its shape, and of course the lights at night. Now I am not saying to change the shape for the rebuild, but some style can be added for sure. -Nick
I never cared for the lack of a central suport system in the Twin Towers.
Lack of a central support system?? The WTC towers -- as well as almost every skyscraper -- had a central core that contained elevators, stairs, mechanical spaces, and of course structural members.
Also they weren't that wide.
400 feet on each side (according to the media) isn't wide?? The Sears Tower, by comparison, is 225 feet wide on each side, and is considered an extremely wide building. What makes the WTC and Sears Tower so attractive to corporate tenants are the vastly huge floor plates. As opposed to, say, the Empire State Building which is comparitively narrow and offers very little flexibility for modern offices. If the Empire State Building was built today, it would be an economic bust.
As far as the swaying goes, almost all tall buildings sway. Chicago's John Hancock Center is designed to sway 18 inches in a 100 MPH wind. When I worked on the 54th floor of the Sears Tower, you could hear the building creaking during strong winter storms. But it's doing exactly what it was designed to do. I got mild motion sickness sometimes, but very rarely.
The only reason the Empire State Building doesn't sway as much is because the engineers at the time didn't have the advanced computer models we take for granted today. As a result, they built in a huge margin of error. In short, the structure of the ESB is grossly overbuilt and is very brittle as a result. I suspect the building would shatter instantly if it got hit with something the size of a 757, but that's only speculation.
I agree that the World Trade Center was a pretty terrible piece of architecture, though. The Hancock Center and Sears Tower, built around the same time, still look very new and modern. The WTC looked very dated when it was only 20 years old. But I guess that's all sort of a moot point now.
Nonetheless after September 11th I probably will never be able to visit a tall building. I'm even nervous being near them.
My advice: Move to Montana. To paraphrase the NRA, tall buildings don't kill people. Fanatical terrorists kill people.
-- David
Chicago, IL
Yeah the Hancock and Sears tower do have a nice design.
I'm sure you're quite nervous about entering a tall building for the time being after what happened at the World Trade Center. I'm sure that many other people are nervous as well. A person whom I know was tallking to me about what happened World Trade Center when I visited last week and towards the end of last year he felt that something like this was going to happen. It wasn't easy for him to stay calm while he was speaking to me about what happened and what makes it worse for him he had a cleft palate that was closed by surgery and even so he has difficulty speaking. He also had a nervous breakdown eight years ago and I think he is still suffering the effects of it. Almost everytime I see him he shakes like a leaf. Things were never easy for this pour soul and what happened at the World Trade Center made it all the worse for him. I feel quite bad for him at this time after what happened.
#3 West End Jeff
I've got the news article briefly about the rebuild.
The link of this article is here.
Larry Silverstein has proposed a plan to build four, 50-story buildings as not to make a carbon copy of the twin towers.
: ( ( ( ( ( ( (
I really disgust at this idea, but I guess the authority can do what they feel they need to do. I really wish they weren't FOUR 50-story buildings.
MAN! This will change my life forever. I'll have to tell this piece of modern history to my kids, and show them a picture of the former, most-beautiful, NYC SKYLINE, which is no longer present. : ( (( ( (
We'll STOP those terrorists from ramming down our buildings. Taking a 777 and ramming it into a new 110-story building just doesn't prove anything.
The military on this tragedy scenario was close by, but they didn't have orders to intercept those planes.
: |
Silverstein's idea is only a proposition; not a definitive thing. In all likelyhood, it will not be only his input, because:
1. The Port Authority still owns the property, even though Silverstein is leasing it
2. Silverstein is not the only person involved in the lease.
The Towers should be AT LEAST 111 Stories tall. Silverstein is a lessor, NOT the owner. buy him out -- Yo, "the" Donald, We Need You!!
Trump is the personification of all that is evil about real estate developers. He'd probably be licking his chops at the thought of building a casino on the WTC site.
-- David
Chicago, IL
I dont think anyone would build a casino there for the next millenium or two.
Let's now stall this thing in red tape for the next 30 years. The issues are:
1) Will there be as much (or more) retail and office space, to accomodate as much employment, as before?
2) Will full taxes be paid (no breaks) so that perhaps someday NYC can have decent public schools and the Second Avenue Subway?
3) Will it have a public space equal to or better than the old WTC plaza (shouldn't be hard)?
4) How soon can it be built?
NYC cannot AFFORD anything that will interfere with achieving those objectives. If Silverstein can finance it, let him build.
3) Will it have a public space equal to or better than the old WTC plaza (shouldn't be hard)?
O man! The WTC plaza really brings back memories. Also the Black buildings which lead into the basement into the WTC, shopping malls, and the PATH station.
What about the other WTC buildings which have collapsed with the towers? And adjacent buildings next to those which haven't collapsed but have been sliced off the side and damaged?
I wish it would be better than the former one, but I really want to make a carbon-copy of the better one, because this established my history, and I am sure, the history of many other New Yorkers around here.
Railfan Pete.
I really wish he would stop thinking about gambling so much. NYC already has a tall TRUMP building in the WTC area.
WTC was built there for a purpose. Not for some evildoer to take over and make an idiotic casino out of it.
/: (
Railfan Pete.
Silverstein has leased the property for 99 years, as mentioned in the article I have linked to.
I'll be an old granddaddy by then. Who will take over?
Railfan Pete.
I'm hoping for twin towers, similar exterior destign as our old friends, slightly taller than the old ones but not noticably from the skyline. Rooftop observatory. Remember, the WTC formerly housed the world's highest open-air observation platform.
observatorys or closeing left and right. the observatory on Boston's tallest building has closed for good. people don't want to go to observatorys right now.
observatorys or closeing left and right. the observatory on Boston's tallest building has closed for good. people don't want to go to observatorys right now.
Yeah, and that's too bad, because if it were still open I'd go spend a day up there just to show that terrorists don't run my life and they never will. I find them very relaxing places to visit.
>>> I personally think they should rebuild them but have the original 110 floors or possibly higher, to show those a-holes that blew them apart we can come back stronger and better. <<<
That's easy for you to say, but the person responsible for renting the space must take into consideration how many firms would be willing to rent the higher floors. If he cannot get strong commitments before building, it will not be built.
Tom
I would still build 2 towers that are 110 stories or more except I would make some changes so that the buildings could withstand the effects of a jetliner crashing into it and burning inside the buildings. Perhaps a powerful system can be installed that could conceivably squelch such a fire before the structural integrity of the building is impaired.
#3 West End Jeff
I would suggest rebuiding the two towers, but making them look different, and not calling it the World Trade Center. Terrorists would not have attacked anything called "Hudson Terminal" twice. The world trade center was chisen as a target because it represents american domination through world trade, which to the terrorists is the most evil thing. Time to abandon those overly grandiose names.
Then they could have gone just as easily fot the World Financial Center. They wanted those buildings.
I do not like the 4@50 floor idea, the buildings at 3 WFC and 1 Liberty Plaza are at least 50 floors or more. Building 50-story buildings in that spot will not do anything for the skyline. Whatever is built there must be a minimum of 20 stories taller than the tallest surrounding building. Maybe we should recreate the Hudson Terminal Towers, but make them, say, 60 stories or 65 stories high, with a new Marriott and some smaller buildings (maybe 10 stories) behind it.
wayne
Has anyone heard yet what the weekend changes are going to be? I heard a few G/O might be occuring.
It's a safe bet that any G.O.'s won't happen until further notice.
Lots of GO's have been taking place. I just rode through one yesterday (southbound circle-Q express from Prospect Park to Kings Highway).
Last Friday (9-14-01)Stations put out a revised G.O. Bulletin List stating that All G.O.s are subject to work based on a case by case basis and they did not give us a list of G.O.s scheduled and [supposedly] will advise us each night of G.O.s schedueld to work on a particular line.[when they do that,they use the intercom feature of the EBCS to advise all booths on that line only. ie- lets say there is no Rockaway Service[made up example] then booths on the A line would be notified but if you are on the 1 line chances are you'd get no info.]
For this week there was no Bulletin explaining G.O.s and no G.O. List.
My advice- be flexible. dont blamer the S/A if there is a G.O. on a line other than the line serving that booth.
As of 630pm no news on MTA website for weekend service. Here is my guess:
IRT- as per current weekday.
A- Normal, skips Chambers
B- No service
C- Not running
D- Normal
E- to Euclid
F- Normal
G- Normal
J- to Broad Street
L- Normal
M- To Stillwell (N ran 24/7)
N- Not running
Q- Continental to Stilwell. Circle Only
R- Not Running.
W- Split service. Stilwell to Pacific and 57/7 to Astoria(overnight type serrvice plan)
"Normal" refers to current weekday service plan dated 9/19/2001.
****Please note this is not official info and I can not be responsible for delays based on this post. If I get officil info I will post.***
As I said before, please be patient during this national crisis. Service can and will change at a moments notice-better or worse.
As far as block tickets- they have not granted us extra discreption over block tickets. We cannot issue a block ticket if a station has one-way service- ie lets say a G.O. suspends Sea Beach Service Stilwell Bound but Manhattan bound is running no block tickets can be issued.
The only directions we were given is to honor school passes prior to 530am weekdays when aschools are in session.
Going out on a limb here, but I'm anticipating W service from Stillwell to Astoria for the weekend. I'll be pleasantly surprised if it only goes to Pacific - I'd rather do my 5 to Pacific and then go on vacation than do 2 to Astoria and hope I remember everything.
What went on this AM- All overnight M trains ended at Broadway Myrtle. I called control and they said "it was being changed"
As of 430pm MTA still does not show any weekend service info.
Also- what happened at 6th and 14-- fire trucks and police. My L was stuck at 3av and another stuck at 3av Canarsie bound.Around 9-930am. The S/A there was too busy to issue block tickets--was yaking on the phone and refused to hang up. Scores of angry customers stormed the booth and still no block tickets. I was in uniform- I gave them the badge number and the supervisor's hone and told them to call the supervisor and tell the supervisor that the S/A refused to issue block tickets.
If any subtalker was there, I am sorry for the inappropriate behavior of the S/A at that booth. I regret that we cannot issue block tickets for a lost ride as a result of a past incident.
and chalk one up for the guys in scheduling - they put off the weekend so long that it showed up and hit them in the face. This weekend:
F terminates at Kings H'way, with shuttle bus to Stillwell.
W runs northbound on the West End to Astoria, southbound on the Sea Beach, making all stops in both directions.
Q to Continental via 63rd St.
M split service -Metropolitan to Myrtle AND Stillwell to Pacific via Sea Beach.
From Midnite tour Saturday thru PM tour Sunday on all BMT lines mentioned: split M service. Regular Met-Bway/Myrtle shuttles with weekend M crews. Southern divsion M shuttle Pacific St. to Stillwell Ave. using weekend W crews. W from Stillwell to Ditmars using weekend N crews. J Parsons to 95 St. 95th St. crews will work the J. Parsons crews make 2 trips. Improvement over 4 to Chambers on the weekends! Q to Continental. R Continental crews will work the Q. Weekday service plan (M from Met to Stl N for example) resumes on the midnite tour Monday morning.
Midnite W: Regular midnite OPTO; and from Astoria: shortline from Ditmars to 34/Bway.
Good, except that the word is spelled "midnight," not "midnite"! Why do some people have so much trouble with that word?
- Lyle Goldman
This is a useful graphic showing the subterranean levels.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/nation/graphics/attack/wtc_7.html
This is a useful graphic showing the subterranean levels.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/nation/graphics/attack/wtc_7.html
Thanks for posting it.
The more I think about it, something's not quite right when a newspaper out of Washington rather than New York published what's definitely the best graphic shown so far.
Our local paper up here ran a similar graphic...but not in their online edition.......Spooky to see the Sunglass Hut,etc intact,isnt it?
I'm not one to believe they'll ever actually get metro north or lirr into lower manhattan, but it seems at the least that some politicians (and not just us nuts) are at least thinking about it:
http://nytimes.com/2001/09/21/nyregion/21TURF.html
as for all the proposals floating around to rebuild the towers, build 4 smaller towers, etc: it's just far too soon to even guess. it's port authority land, though what becomes of the lease that guy had on the old wtc towers is beyond me.
Oh, wonderful. We haven't even stopped looking for the bodies, we may be about to go to war, the federal government has committed $20 billion dollars, and the rats are already fighting over the cheese.
hahaha! would it be NY if they didn't???!!!!!
My feelings exactly. And all this talk of rebuilding the towers should be put on hold for at least a year. First, out of respect for the 6000+ people killed in the terrorist attack. And secondly because we have no idea what the Manhattan commercial real estate market will look like in the near future, particularly downtown. A few companies have already relocated to NJ. But others have signed leases in Manhattan and even Brooklyn. So it's still way too early to talk about adding 4 50-story office towers to what may not turn out to be a healthy real estate market. We have to wait and see what large companies in Manhattan do when their leases expire over the next few years.
I agree with you in as far as a realistic market assessment being done - but remember that you have to project in future.
The market today does not represent the market in five-ten years. But a careful analysis should be done.
The cleanup process is going to take quite a while. This and the political resolution underway now will provide as much pause, many, many months, probably, as anyone would need. There is no need for an additional pause; if anything it is disrespectful to the dead and what they sought to accomplish.
My problem is more with the tone of the whole 'rebuilding' movement. It's just too 'rah-rah' for right now in my opinion. I understand that the city and Silverstein want to rebuild but maybe they should go about in a more behind-the-scenes way.
Dilbert cartoon (paraphrased):
Office Worker: My doctor just told me I have carpal tunnel syndrome from being forced to work too-long hours in a cramped and uncomfortable space. I have to wear these braces all the time.
Boss: zzzzz
Office worker: Are you even listening to me? All you ever think about is money.
Boss: (starts to wake up) Money?
Office worker: I'm in agony! I need surgery!
Boss: False alarm. (goes back to sleep)
For a few brief moments there, politicians seemed to care about people. Then it was back to collecting and preserving currency, both political and the other kind.
i don't think i've taken taken the G train that i can recall so i have a question about it. monday morning i will be taking the J to the F at 9th st to the G at Bergen. this will be at around 6am. is it safe? is the G a slow trip? will the train be empty?
Yes, no and seats will be available the whole trip at that hour.
wish me luck.
Good luck. The trip will be ever so slow. The G is a deceptively long line.
Dan
http://www.japantimes.co.jp/cgi-bin/getarticle.pl5?nn20010920a6.htm
Let's hope it never, ever, ever comes to that.
Once we reach that stage, most of the rest of the world will look like downtown Manhattan.
The Secretary of Defense never specifically rules out any military option. The Japan Times story is unfortunately sensationalizing a long-standing US defense policy.
Makes you wonder - whose side are they on?
And elsewhere in Asia, I gather the sensational press has been talking about neutron bombs. I wonder if they think we'll redo the line to "God Bless America" to something like 'from the Indus, to the Nile, nuked to foam ...'.
You don't start any military campaign by announcing what you will not do.
That's the job of the press and the pundits.
Nice to hear what third-party countries think about all of this.
I don't live in NYC so I am not familiar with the WTC station. When the WTC Station opened was the Hudson Terminal just abandoned? Are the tracks still connected to the Hudson Terminal? I was just curious if the station is just sitting there unused and sealed up?
Thanks
1. Mostly abandoned; some of the tunnels were in use at some point to connect parking garages and loading docks beneath the WTC.
2. Track connection was severed and the opening bricked up with cinder blocks.
Hudson Terminal was closed and the loop direction into the platforms was reversed when the station at the WTC opened. The closed terminal became part of the truck loading docks.
Hudson Terminal was closed and the loop direction into the platforms was reversed when the station at the WTC opened. The closed terminal became part of the truck loading docks.
Does anyone know if the old terminal area survived?
I've always wondered about that, but I've never read any clues to the answer. I suspect that there is nothing left. Most of the details can be found in Brennan's Abandoned Stations:
Hudson Terminal
Brennan's site has an interesting picture showing Hudson Terminal from the river side. The Singer Tower and City Investing Building are also shown in that view; all three buildlings were finished in 1908. I remember that the latter two buildings were torn down in the spring of 1968 to make way for One Liberty Plaza. At that time foundation work on the Trade Center was well under way. There was a period in 1970-71 when the new South Tower and Hudson Terminal were standing side by side, and part of Dey Street was still open. The terminal buildings were then demolished to make way for one of the low-rise structures (WTC #3?).
It's very strange to realize that the Trade Center has joined the list of New York's many short-lived buildings.
The low-rise structures that the H&M buildings replaced would be 4WTC and 5WTC, shells of which are still standing. 3WTC is the Marriott which was reduced to rubble when 2WTC fell.
wayne
They should have left the Hudson Terminal buildings in place, they definitly looked neater than WTC 3 and 4. More office space too.
Maybe a new WTC design will incorporate the designs of the H&M buildings into it. 4WTC and 5WTC won't win a beauty contest, that's for sure.
wayne
Hudson Terminal was closed and the loop direction into the platforms was reversed
I could be wrong but by memory is that H&M trains in Hudson terminal went counterclockwise (front of train facing north) and that the PATH terminal was the same but without such sharp curves.
Or do you mean something else by "loop direction reversed"?
If anyone has the Book Carleton's Hudson and Manhatten Revisited, Page 59 has the story of Hudson Terminal and the WTC Station. To much to type THe WTC sat on the site of the old H&M Building
Can you tell me if "the loop direction reversed"?
Your original statement was correct - H&M / PATH trains entered into Hudson Terminal counterclockwise. Cudahy in "Rails Under the Mighty Hudson" described it as "a colorful place ... that resembled more an old-fashioned trolley terminal than a subway depot. It featured a 5 track loop, like its replacement [WTC], but its curves were much sharper and trains screeched to high heaven as wheel flanges heeled into the approach tracks." It was located a little bit east of the [present (sigh)] WTC terminal on the west side of Church Street.
--Mark
That assessment is right on the money with respect to the wheel music at Hudson Terminal. I was there three times; once with "K"/MP51s and twice with PA-1 cars - and the squealing and screeching was VERY severe. The "K" cars were much more "moosical" than the PA-1 (the PA-1 cars hoot and howl, the "K" were much shriller, like the IRT cars); I would stand at the south end of the station platform by the curved section and soak it all in. I wish I had made a tape recording of that beautiful din. I never rode a train of Black Cars or MP38s through there (I DID ride one train of Black Cars as a little child of five from 33rd Street to Journal Square).
I really do miss the "K" cars.
And I hope that wheel music doesn't become extinct.
wayne
Let's see - you love screeching wheels. Heypaul loves compressor sounds. You and I love spur-cut bull and pinion gear sounds.
THe WTC sat on the site of the old H&M Building
The WTC occupies much more than the site of the old H&M buildings. The H&M buildings occupied 2 city blocks from Cortlandt to Fulton (including Dey) and Chruch to Greenwich. The WTC occupies: Liberty to Vesey (including Cortlandt, Dey and Fulton) and Church to West (including West Bway, Greenwich and Washington). Building 7 extended north of Vesey to Barclay.
The H&M buildings did not close any streets. Dey St separated the two buildings, which were connected via the terminal concourse below ground as well as a bridge between the two buildings on an upper floor. The height of the buildings compared with the 18th and 19th century surrounding buildings and narrow streets really cast the area in a perpetual shadow.
OTOH, the surrounding buildings had relatively low rents which suited many small businesses. The principle commercial activities were radio and electronics parts (Radio Row) and wholesale food and produce (Washington Market). These two dissimilar industries did not interfere with one another because Washington Market was strictly a night time operation. If somebody was looking for "nuts" they were directed either to Sahadi (roasted) or to Tinkers Paradise (hex) depending on the time of day.
From what I read, Hudson Teriminal was the largest office complex of its day (1908).
To answer a question from a previous post, the "reverse loop" means that the trains made an extra "reverse turn" before entering the platform. Comming in the trains would first turn to the south and then swing around to the north allowing for a longer platform.
A schematic I saw of Hudson Terminal in Cudahy's book didn't have this "reverse loop" but the replacement WTC station does.
--Mark
The principle commercial activities were radio and electronics parts (Radio Row) and wholesale food and produce (Washington Market). These two dissimilar industries did not interfere with one another because Washington Market was strictly a night time operation. If somebody was looking for "nuts" they were directed either to Sahadi (roasted) or to Tinkers Paradise (hex) depending on the time of day.
LOL!!
I purchased from both back then. That was the best way to buy discount electronics before Crazy Eddie/
However ... a lot of the food businesses were open during the day. A few sold openly to the public (produce especially). Certain others marked "wholesale" or "to the trade" would let you buy off the street if you looked like you knew what you were doing--sometimes you had to buy a minimum quantity. Others wouldn't let you in the door.
Washington Market, thank you for telling me the name of it
Weren't there also camera stores in that area?
"Tinkers Paradise'
Tinkers Paradise must have relocated to Park Row. I remember it there a few years ago. The store closed down and J & R Music World expanded in its place.
Bill "Newkirk"
It was my understanding that the trains faced south coming into the platforms in Hudson Terminal. I remember reading a blurb when the WTC platforms were first opened that the trains came in from the opposite direction. I don't actually remember anything about the platform/train direction in Hudson Terminal, and looking back on it now it doesn't seem to make a whole lot of sense that they could have gone in the opposite direction.
The trains arrived from the south end of Hudson Terminal, head end facing north, and left from the north end - and the curves were VERY severe, especially on the approach.
wayne
How sharp were those curves compared to, say, South Ferry or the jug handle the 5 takes into 149th St.?
Is there an incentive to alternate approaches, in that you can even out the effect on wheel flanges on both sides of the train? Would that help postpone the PATH car's eventual appointment with the trueing machine?
If the cars aren't looped at the other end, then the wear factor would actually even out. This time around the loop, these wheels get it, next time around the other side gets it for the one loop. If there were loops on both ends, or it was a reverse move at the "Hudson Terminal" end, then you'd have one sided flange wear.
Obviously, the wear on the flanges will be greater than in a more gentle loop, but at least they're actually getting relatively even wear on that run if you think about it. Same was true for our own South Ferry runs ... that was a pretty sharp turn, especially on the inner loop.
You're right!
If I recall correctly, there is no loop at 33rd St, nor at Newark. Is there one at Hoboken?
No, no loop at Hoboken either.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Not one, but two people up between 3 and 5AM posting with me on Subtalk. I guess I'm not the only insomniac tonight...
Ummm ... these are NORMAL hours for me - this is when I can write code in peace. No adminiswigs, no "can you tell me how to work this thing?" or other intrusions. Of course while the rest of the world is conscious, I'm not. But I don't see any downside here. Heh.
One-ended loops even out the wear on equipment. Now think about those old PCC's in Newark and how they had TWO loops. Ever wonder why the shop was busy there? :)
Wish I could claim insomnia... I'm monitoring a network upgrade... my team works, I work.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Heh. It's *so* quiet at this hour ... you can get things done. :)
I just had a happy compile, so I'm done. Moo.
They shift cars from line to line often enough that I think they all get a decent amount of time through the loop. There's also a loop at Harrison yard IIRC...
There's also a loop at Harrison yard IIRC...
Yes, you're right... forgot about that one.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Thanks everyone for your answers. I now know how the two terminals could coexist. One was above the other.
i was on a Eastbound train to Ronkonkoma. More specificly, the 1215 from NY Penn. I saw a Amtrak AME7 east of Harold interlocking. He wasn't near sunnyside. He was near Woodside on the LIRR and he had several Amfleet cars behind it. Any reason why a Amtrak train is in Long island Railroad Territory?
That doesn't make any sense. AEM7s operate solely on catenary power. There's only 3rd rail on the LIRR.
You didn't indicate which way the train was going.
I'm going to guess that what you saw was an Amtrak train going towards or coming from the Hell Gate Bridge. The train operates on the Port Washington Branch until it passes Harold. One of the interlocking signals has to indicate that a switch is set for Hell Gate or the train has to stop and call Harold for directions to Boston.
Michael
The PW and Hellgate tracks diverge well West of Woodside. Could have been a test train, or more likely a PSCC oops (it happens). BTW, the signals in question display an illuminated arrow if and only if the route is set for the 'Wash. A few years ago, when Harold was still open, they mis-routed an Amcrash track car to the PW line. The TC driver didn't realize his error until he passed Shea stadium!
eggs!
The PW and Hellgate tracks diverge well West of Woodside. Could have been a test train, or more likely a PSCC oops (it happens).
I thought HAROLD was still controled by an active interlocking tower.
NO. When PSCC took full control a few years ago, Harold is remotely controlled by PSCC except if emergencies persist. The tower will still be there just in case for years to come. PW Branch as well as the Main Line, Hell Gate Line and west of the tunnels (secondary manual block territory from HPA up to LIC Coach Yards and station)are all controlled by PSCC.
HAROLD is still on the active towers list. The tower still retains all the trappings of an active tower as well.
PSCC controls:
Harold Interlocking, including "Point" (Switch & 2 signals at east end of HP Ave). All other LIRR trackage, including the LIRR Main Line, the Wash, the Montauk cut-off and associated tracks, controlled by 204 office in Jamaica either directly or via LIRR towers.
F interlocking, at the East end of the East River tunnels. This does not include Sunnyside Yard.
Hell Gate line: Harold to Gate interlocking, inclusive. Gate is located 1.5 mi. East of Harold. The rest of the Hell Gate line controlled by Amtrak Section 'A' Dispatcher at 40 office.
East River tunnels.
Penn Station, including leads to West Side Yard, but not the yard itself.
North River tunnels, up to and including "Bergen" interlocking in the NJ Meadows, 3.7 miles from Penn.
Empire Connection ( for Albany service): between Penn and Empire interlocking 0.5 miles away at 38th St. Section 'A' controls the Empire line from Empire to CP12(controlled by MNRR) across Spuyten Duyvil Creek.
eggs!
Well I guess that HAROLD is open as needed.
They've routed LIRR tains on the Hell Gate route and SlAmtak ones on the PW line too. There's actuallty a stretch of catenary that runs somewhat close to Woodside on one track. I think it's for like turning trains or something.
What's an AME 7? Aren't you talking about AEM 7's?
Are these the electrically powered locomotives that serve the ADIRONDACK route to Montreal?
Several of these are found at Penn Station New York. They look like they're 85' feet long (full-size locomotive) and while STANDING it is REALLY LOUD!
ALTHOUGH, some variation of this locomotive with brighter but older colors with "AMTRAK" in white with the gray shades near the roof of the train on the sides, are diesel operated. I saw one with my dad while this VERY LOUD locomotive was creeping while chugging slowly into Sunnyside Yard right where the gates are at 43rd St. and 37th Av. in QUEENS. (The LIRR and AMTRAK rails pass right on top of it. )
(Sorry I forgot the vocab. word meaning "REALLY LOUD".)
I think more descriptions of your sighting would help. Which direction, which rail, catenary or diesel, etc.
Railfan Pete.
An AEM-7 is an all electric engine that powers most NEC trains. They look like a toaster.
The word I got today through our office grapevine is that the reconfiguration of runways (including the addition of one runway) at O'Hare is still in track. However, the construction of at least two new terminals may be put on hold for a while. No word yet about the large western terminal that is also part of the expansion proposal.
Last week our project director got a call from a Bensenville resident who was ecstatic about the airports being shut down. "This is the first time in ten years I've gotten a decent night's sleep!" she exclaimed.
Our project director responded: "Well, I'm sure those six thousand families in New York are all very happy for you." There was a second or two of stunned silence from the resident before our director hung up the phone on her.
-- David
Chicago, IL
Last week our project director got a call from a Bensenville resident who was ecstatic about the airports being shut down. "This is the first time in ten years I've gotten a decent night's sleep!" she exclaimed.
Our project director responded: "Well, I'm sure those six thousand families in New York are all very happy for you." There was a second or two of stunned silence from the resident before our director hung up the phone on her.
There's one word to describe that woman. Hint: it begins with "c" and rhymes with "hunt."
>>>There's one word to describe that woman. Hint: it begins with "c" and rhymes with "hunt." <<
I'll go one step further...useless piece of shit best describes this (who I hesitate to call a) person.
Peace,
ANDEE
What kind of masochistic neurotic would live somewhere (Bensenville, yet!) and not get a decent night's sleep for ten years?
i rode the 8av E from Fulton St to 34 for a Long island Railroad train. I guess the 8av towers didn't know what to do today. One minute i see a A Train of R38s going express bypassing Spring street while my E was stopping. It was headed downtown. Then at 34 when i get off my E train i look all the way across the platform and see a A Train on the local!! How do i know it was a A and not a E? R44 brake noises! No other car sounds like that in the subway!
what was going on today?
by the way love those R68s on Queens Blvd!
type in {Q33NY} IN MICROSOFT WORD, highlight it and change the font to wingdings-se the creeppy symbols
AN AIRPLANE, 2 TOWERS, SKULL & CROSSBONES , AND A JEWISH STAR?
ARE YOU KIDDING?
Chuck Greene
I'M JEWISH
So am I. Happy New Year!
Chuck Greene
You're a little late. Someone pointed that out a few days ago.
What is this? Some new internet rumor making the rounds?
Just a rumor. AS far as this goes, the font has been around since Windows 95 at least. The font is called Wing Dings and contains other stuff such as the RX symbol, Registered trademark, Copyright, etc. This font along with Wing Dings 2 allowsd you to use symbols not on the keyboard such as the E symbol for the Euro currency.
As NY TV stations have pointed out here was no flight with the code Q33 or Q33NY or Q33NYC. If you will use windows to increase the font size you will see the "33" is simply two sheets of paper with writing(signified by horizontal lines).
And this will also work in ANY program that allows you to change fonts, so don't go around accusing Microsoft of silly things.
This was just shown on NBC news. A web site had used Q33 in the title for a message (posted before 9/11) quoted from some religious text (Bible?) which had a vague relation to last Tuesday's events. I forgot exactly what happened, anyone who watched NBC news can probably explain this better.
Yup, does it in WordPerfect 9, courtesy of Windings.
Can we accuse them anyway?
You're a little late. Someone pointed that out a few days ago.
What is this? Some new internet rumor making the rounds?
Actually, typing in {Q33NY} makes the symbols a little more pleasant to see. The first character is a nicely shaped flower. The last one is the beginning of a quotation mark.
I know I have tried Q33NY before. An airplane with sheets of paper, and the skull and crossbones in front of the Jews symbol is no irony.
Railfan Pete.
"kull and crossbones in front of the Jews symbol
is no irony."
What are you saying
You know, Nostradamus predicted this was going to happen in Microsoft Word...
Jay Leno said that if Nostradamus were around today, his name would be "Miss Cleo" and charge $2.99/minute.
You know Im getting sick of this Nostradamus crap
...then you'd hate my post on the New York Radio Message Board last week about Nostradamus' hot picks for this Sunday's NFL contests and today's key college games (1-900-NOSTRA-1 and the first two minutes are FREE!) $2.95 for each additional minute.
and as I pointed out to my CR THursday, he also predicted I would marry a short brunette.
I would say a highly muted WOW but first you have to explain what the significance of Q33NY is.
According to a post in a previous thread on this topic, Q33 was the airline code # for one of the hijacked flights. However, I do not know for sure whether this was accurate.
Does anyone out there know if there are pictures of the building of the IND Jamaica Bay Trestles out there? And no im not talking about the wooden trestle that burt down when they belong to the LIRR. Plus the first swing bridge from Hamilton Beach to Big Egg Marsh heading to Broad Channel, did it open alot? Today hear it Permanently closed.
The North Channel Bridge opened a little less frequently than the south. Today, it can never open because the rails are now continuous across the threshold, and the booth for the operator has been removed.
I have some Electronic Equipment i'm going to be ordering online at the beginning of next month, and the online retailer that has the best prices claims to be the internet version of "Minimax Electronics" at 6 S. Michigan avenue. It seems weird that a company with such low prices would be centrally located like that, and their website is very poor quality which makes me wonder if it's an online scam or legit. I know there's a lot of Subtalkers who are in the loop quite regularly...so...the question:
IS there in fact a Minimax Electronics store at 6 S. Michigan?
Thanks...
---Abe
Clairifcation: when I said "the loop" I meant downtown Chicago in general, not the ACTUAL loop...I realize that Michigan is outside of the real loop
---Abe
Of course, we have to remember that the "Loop" was defined by the South Side cable lines making a loop in downtown Chicago, long before the elevated lines saw the light of day. The original loop was defined by State, Lake, Wabash, and Madison, with cars from both State and Wabash making a clockwise loop on separate tracks. In 1892, State Street cars traversed State, Madison, Wabash, Lake, and State, counterclockwise, while Wabash Avenue cars traversed Wabash, Madison, Michigan, Randolph, and Wabash counterclockwise. If you can picture this, that resulted in left-hand running on Wabash between Randolph and Madison. Since 6 S. Michigan is just south of Madison, by a few steps, it is STILL outside the loop.
"IS there in fact a Minimax Electronics store at 6 S. Michigan?"
Yes. I go past it about once or twice a week getting my lunch. I've never gone in there, as it looks like one of the cheap and noisy camera and electronics "emporia" that still profliferate on Times Square (despite the characterization by some that said square is totally "Disneyfied"). Minimax has been in that location for at least a few years IIRC, so it likely isn't a fly-by-night operation.
Today I decided to do some railfanning, something I haven't done since before the WTC disaster. I took the 7 express. When we got to L.I.C. I smelled that burning plastic smell, winds were blowing from the south. At TSQ I waited awhile for a downtown train. A Q of R32's pulled in, it was the local train. The smell of burnt plastic and steel permeated the subways today. It's almost like an electrical fire kinda smell.
We got stuck in back of a W for 5 minutes before 8th, and a Q diamond (R40s_ passed us on the express.
At Canal I got off and headed for the CI bound M. An OOS set of R42's was leaving the station, and I waited about 5 minutes for an M train. This was Slant R40s, but the ride the whole way to C.I. was so local and so slow. Going back I got an R42M train. Yeah it felt weird riding R42's on the southern Division. The Montague tunnel split area was VERY white, presumably Trade Center dust. The tracks had thiss appearance till around Broad street.
I stayed on the M all the way to Metropolitan. The Willy B was slow, but it's a nice bridge. And that sharp turn onto Myrtle ave el, it comes so close to houses, and the switching setup reminds me of pics I've seen of old BMT Els.
Going back from Metropolitan I took the same R42 back, with an equally slow ride. I got off at Fulton and transferred to an uptown E. The station reaked of electrical fire odor, must be from the WTC. Going north we passed Chambers street, which looks OK, it's just very dusty. I got off at Canal, and the whole station smelled like fire.
Got off and walked a block to the downtown IRT. I just missed a 1, but another 1 was right behind it. After Franklin we bypassed Chambers and Park Place. Both stations were dusty and had alot of leaks, but no damage otherwise. It really stunk around there, cops and some people were wearing masks.
I gott of at Clark and waited for a Manhattan bound train. Another 1 came in behind mine. Three 1's in a row! Going back uptown we had another dusty 1 train (R62's). I got to TSQ and took the 7 back.
Manhattan seemed pretty down today. It was really depressing. There were missing persons pictures all over the place, and I even saw a poor woman wearing a large pin with the picture of her husband on it. I had to fight back my own tears.
This hurt is gonna take a long time to go away. Even though Chinatown seems OK I was in the rest of Manhattan a bit more today and it seemed pretty dismal. Except for commuters I saw no tourists, and at midday the subway was very empty, like on a Sunday morning.
Manhattan seemed pretty down today. It was really depressing. There were missing persons pictures all over the place, and I even saw a poor woman wearing a large pin with the picture of her husband on it. I had to fight back my own tears.
This hurt is gonna take a long time to go away. Even though Chinatown seems OK I was in the rest of Manhattan a bit more today and it seemed pretty dismal. Except for commuters I saw no tourists, and at midday the subway was very empty, like on a Sunday morning.
Dunno, I was in Times Square in midday, the first time I've been north of 34th since the attacks, and things looked just as bustling as usual. There were lines to get into some restaurants, the Virgin Megastore was quite busy, and believe it or not I actually saw some Gray Line doubledecker tour buses. Even farther south around Houston Street, where I work, life is getting back to normal (although a phalanx of cops and federal agents has Houston blocked off between Varick and Hudson - there's no official word, but I suspect that the INS detention center on the block is being used to hold some of the people being questioned in the attacks).
If Bush can afford to forgive some $30 billion in Pakistani debt, you'd think he could assume/forgive the NYC debt as well.
It'll never happen. It would seem he believes Pakistanis are more deserving.
What NYC debt????
I thought I read in the papers and heard on the radio that the debt was being restructured. Maybe that's not the word. But I understood it to be the debt would be paid back under a different way that it was done now. With all the OT that goverment is paying right now, I don't think Bush is going to erase $30 Billion that he'll need in next year's budget.
MTA now has Manhattan neighborhood maps on their web site. It si prior to Manhattan Bridge and prior to WTC Disaster.
Here is the URL
http://www.mta.nyc.ny.us/mta/localmaps/index.html
If that does not work pull up the NYCT home page and pull up the alert page and then scroll down till you see the maps section on the left. The index will pull up a map of Manhattan with neighborhood shwon. Click a neighborhood to get the specific PDF map. Note- you will need Acrobat reader from www.adobe.com if you do not already have it.
Wow, very cool! Now I just need to get Adobe Illustrator so that I can patch them all together into a single massive map. :-)
-- David
Chicago, IL
Photoshop can open / edit PDFs that were created by Photoshop, unfortunately the MTA wasn't very cheap in the software department and actually sprang for the real program. Plus, the files are password protected.
Those bastards!
-- David
Chicago, IL
Didn't that Russian guy get busted for writing a "crack PDF" software?
I think it was e-books he cracked.
Arti
Yeah. You can't even load them into the Acrobat Reader for the Palm OS. Official MTA maps would be very handy to have in a PDA.
--Mike
Cool! Thanks.
All they need now is to update them and make maps for the other boroughs, and a book could be published! (like StationMasters in the Washington, DC area)
Very nice!
I was hoping to see these some day on line, similiar to the ones that the Paris RATP has had online for a while now (http://www.ratp.fr/Eng/Pla_q/f_pla.htm
The subway station maps are of excellent quality, and I think the MTA should finish the 5 boroughs (include those areas not served by the subway) and market it as a rival to Hagstrom, whose new digitized map is a travesty compared to the classic hand drawn map that preceded it .
Van Dam did a much superior digitized map--Hagstrom, or rather its owner Langenscheidt, recognized this and bought Van Dam!
www.forgotten-ny.com
Awesome, dude!
Wow. Excellent. I will promptly print those maps and use them in place of my Hagstrom.
Any idea if the other boroughs will be posted as well?
May I request some help from one of you that really know the streets of downtown Manhattan?
Was the above address eliminated by the construction of the WTC 30 years ago, or is this address further south on Greenwich St?
Further south, much further south. According to my maps, 140 Greenwich is at the corner of Liberty. Probably the Bankers Trust address; a yellow tag at least, maybe even red.
Anyone hear what the five RED TAG buildings are?
wayne
Thank you Wayne, and George too!
Forty years ago I dealt with a record store that I thought was located on the northwest corner of either Greenwich & Liberty or Greenwich & Cedar. The store was called Record Stop. This was in the area that was known as "radio row" back then.
I will attempt to verify the number 48 because it is obviously wrong. If I can come up with any kind of a better address I will let you know!
This was in the area that was known as "radio row" back then.
Radio Row (ca 1950-1965) extended from Chambers to Cortlandt, from Church to the river. The primary concentration was on Cortlandt, Dey and Vesey from Greenwich to the river. The only store south of Cortlandt was Edlie's, which was located at 154 Greenwich between Cortlandt and Liberty, next to the police station.
I made a mistake and did not have the complete number. It is 148, not 48.
The store's name was "Record Stop" 148 Greenwich St. NYC, BA-7-9575. the last time I dealt with them was in Feb. 1962. They had in stock or could get within 24 hours any LP record that was ever made.
Based on various other posts, the store's location must have been on the northwest corner of Greenwich & Liberty, a block further north than I originally thought. I did think they were in the "radio row" area though, not south of it. This store was then obviously part of what was razed for the WTC construction.
Does this sound correct?
Based on various other posts, the store's location must have been on the northwest corner of Greenwich & Liberty, a block further
north than I originally thought.
My personal point of reference would be Edlie's. He was 154 Greenwich and located in the middle of the block between Cortlandt and Liberty, just south of the police station. The corner of Greenwich & Liberty would be about right.
I did think they were in the "radio row" area though, not south of it.
Radio Row derived its name from the proliferation of radio parts suppliers. Arrow, Terminal-Hudson, Harrison, the major suppliers of their day, were all located along Cortlandt. There were no national distributors at that time. In addition to these major suppliers there were dozens of smaller outfits that specialized on oddlots and the tons of military surplus that was available thanks to WWII and Korea. Most were on Cortlandt and slightly north. There was another electronics parts strip along Canal St between West Broadway and Lafayette.
Several factors in addition to the WTC combined to put an end to this industry. The electronics industry changed from tubes to transistors to integrated circuits. Arrow was the only one of the major wholesaler/distributor in the area that was able to adapt to the new technology. The only odd lot suppliers that were able to adapt were: Harry Krantz, who was located on Canal and is now out on the Island; Blan, who specialized in relays and moved to Warren St and Advance who moved to 45th St. Two additional factors that affected the oddlot establishments were drying up of the source military surplus and the disinterest of the proprietors' younger generation to follow in the business.
I know this is probably pushing it, but would you remember if Edlie's possibly handled the Stromberg-Carlson brand? I bought a stereo phono, AM-FM, console from a store near Record Stop about 1960. I was only in the store twice so I don't remember it as well as the record store. the S-C is long gone but I bet I still have the manual for it somewhere since I normally save everything.
Edlie was strictly a parts house, tubes, resistors, capacitors, etc.
The old ERA HQ was at 145 Greenwich (the 9th Ave El ran on this Street). Across from the ERA was a Pizza shop that the Headlight Staff use to order from. On this block the east side bacame the firehouse and the west side of this part of Greenwich Street became Bankers Trust (BT) Plaza. 48 Greenwich would put you near the exit for the Brooklyn Battery Tunnel (an MTA property).
"My personal point of reference would be Edlie's. He was 154 Greenwich and located in the middle of the block between Cortlandt and Liberty, just south of the police station. The corner of Greenwich & Liberty would be about right."
There is an Edlie's Electronics on Hempstead Turnpike in Levittown, LI. He deals in discontinued electonic parts etc. and records. Could this be the same Edlie's you guys are talking about ?
Bill "Newkirk"
Yes, it is the same store. It is was run by the sons, after Ed retired. I've fogotten his last name but it started with "lie". I have not been there in ages, so I don't what it is like now. The last time I was there they had gone to all mail order and pre-packaged kits. That's not my interest, so I haven't returned.
I'm not an expert, but I remember that ERA had its headquarters on 145? Greenwich Street, which I visited in the late sixties. It was torn down for the World Trade Center.
Was the above address eliminated by the construction of the WTC 30 years ago, or is this address further south on Greenwich St?
The address would place it on the west side of Greenwich in the vicinity of Edgar St, which is much further south of the World Trade Center. If this address did once exist, it was most likely eliminated by the construction of the Brooklyn Battery Tunnel and Parking Garage.
C trains will resume service between 168 St and Euclid Av this upcoming Monday. A, C, and E trains will resume regular routes and schedules at that time.
Exception being that southbound E trains will discharge passengers at Canal Street and will relay at the World Trade Center. Northbound trains will enter service at Canal Street.
Have the dot-matric computer signs on the R46's been displaying Euclid Avenue all this time ?
Yep!
E 8 Av/Fulton Lcl
E to Euclid Av
E Queens Express
E Jamaica Center
That's what its been reading for the past week.
Trevor Logan
Code 437.
Flexibility is the R-46s' middle name.
All those 168 C crews getting deadhead time to PA-E will be heartbroken.
I just hope discharge delays at Canal Street don't screw up the C, and thus service in Brooklyn. I'd have prefered to keep the E and relay the C at WTC, but that would be more trains to Brooklyn. Can't have that.
Why can't they relay the E's in Brooklyn ? Isn't there a place in the tunnel easy of Hoyt where there is a 5th track between the express tracks ?
The nearest 5th track east of Hoyt Schermerhorn is between the Lafayette and Clinton Washington station, about a mile from the station. It is only accessible from the east bound track with a reverse move. I believe that this would have to be controlled by the normally closed Lafayette Avenue tower at the extreme east end of the eastbound local Lafayette Avenue station. Thus, a lot of time to reverse and a lot of extra manpower.
At some thirty plus trains per hour (with the A plus the E plus the C) this would easily become a major bottleneck.
So the answer is, theoretically, YES, practically, NO!!!
I think it is more like 28 A & E an hour (the C is on the local)
Slipping every other train onto a siding, and reversing I don't think would be a bottle neck if they had a motorman baord the rear at Hoyt to take it back to Jamaica.
The original statement was to extend the E to Hoyt Schermerhorn. This would mean something like 15 Es, 13 As, and about 8 Cs per hour for a total of 38 trains per hour would be sharing the single track between Canal and Hoyt-Schermerhorn. There is no local track for the C between these stations.
At 38 tph, a 94 second headway. Any A immediately following the E for its reverse move would have to wait on the express track just east of Hoyt and this would probably generate a major backup.
NOOO!!! Back to crappy C service! Argh!
(Not that I've been on the subway since Tuesday Sept. 11.)
When was this information made known? The plan to run C service starting Monday, 9/24 was being discussed in my office this afternoon (9/21). NYCT tried to run a test train into the E line terminal (known as "World Trade Center" until/unless it's ever renamed) on Friday, 9/21, and was stopped by the NYPD because it's still in the "frozen zone."
Operationally, the station's ready, or at least the tracks within the station are ready to serve as relay tracks for trains discharging at Canal Street. However, until/unless the NYPD gives clearance, the plan to relay trains at this location (and enable resumption of C service) will not happen.
David
Couldn't the C make E stops?
The problem isn't with the "C", it's with the "E"! They have nowhere to turn the "E" around because they can't use the Chambers-WTC station as a relay point. So they run the "E" over the "C" line to Euclid Avenue. Can't do much more than that right now.
waynw
I know I'll catch holy heck for suggesting this, but sometimes, that can still be fun.
Regarding the C and E train routing problems, could it be a possibility to resume C train service as was, while routing the E train down 6th Avenue from 53rd Street and terminating at Grand Street, absorbing that Chinatown "S" train. Sure this E would be little different from the F, (while probably overloading 6th leaving 8th underserved) but I thought I'd throw it out there.
For the kabillionth time:
THERE ARE NO SWITCHES AT GRAND STREET!!!!!!
There is NO WAY to turn trains there. The Grand Street Shuttle consists of ONE TRAIN that operates on ONE TRACK and just scoots back and forth.
David
THERE ARE NO SWITCHES AT GRAND STREET!!!!!!
There is NO WAY to turn trains there. The Grand Street Shuttle consists of ONE TRAIN that operates on ONE TRACK and just scoots back and forth.
I'd estimate that the running time between W 4th and Grand St to be 3 minutes. Add another minute to turn the train around to make the minimum round trip to be 7 minutes. Therefore it would be possible to terminate trains at Grand St from north of B-L at headways of 7 minutes or greater. The current headway for the shuttle is 12 minutes, so I don't see any service level gain for the present setup.
The choice for the present setup was based on factors other than what is physically possible.
The proposal I was addressing involved turning E service (a FOUR-MINUTE HEADWAY) at Grand Street. Clearly, even using Mr. Bauman's numbers, that is not possible.
In addition to the lack of switches at Grand Street, the reason for the current setup (two Sixth Avenue shuttles) is that it is designed to be temporary. The northern shuttle is to be replaced by V service in November. At the same time, the southern shuttle is to be extended to W. 4th Street.
David
The proposal I was addressing involved turning E service (a FOUR-MINUTE HEADWAY) at Grand Street.
My mistake.
A through-routed shuttle is, theoretically, an option, but it requires headways of about ten minutes (or more) due to the single-track operation.
For whatever reason (and I haven't been able to determine it), the TA is unwilling to combine the two shuttles or to send alternate V's to Grand.
But the E runs way too frequently to even consider the option.
The E gets very high ridership from Lex/53rd and Fifth/53rd. to stations on Eighth Ave. Particularly to 42/8 and 34/Penn. Sending the E down Sixth Ave. is silly for that reason. And the fact that on a 4 to 5 minute rush hour headway and the single track operation from north of Bway/Lafayette to Grand would absolutely make your idea of the E to Grand via Sixth Ave. laughable. The TA is in the business of moving passengers, not having unworkable service plans made into fun things for SubTalkers.
To say the E has high ridership between 53/Lex and 42nd and 34th is an understatement. Sometimes people boarding at 53/5th Ave have to fight their way onto the train.
But much of the problem comes from moron passengers. If you're going s/b on an E from 53/Lex, and you see that the front of the platform is already crowded, walk to the middle of the platform where there are fewer people. Many times, I have noticed overcrowding in the first few cars, while the middle cars are lighter, and the last cars have plenty of room.
Knowing this, is almost always walk to a section of the platform that is relatively empty.
But the average subway rider does not have the intelligence to figure this out. Or, they're just to lazy to walk a few feet.
The TA is starting to educate people in this regard. At 51st on the 6 line, there is always a TA employee on the station PA system telling people to move to the empty section of platform, to avoid overcrowding. If only someone who speaks Spanish would do the same at 74th/Roosevelt on the 7 train.
Yes, the C could make E stops, but would it make anyone feel better to have C trains run from Jamaica Center to Euclid Avenue than to have E trains run from Jamaica Center to Euclid Avenue? As far as running normal C service but no E service, that would starve Queens Boulevard (yes, Central Park West local stations aren't getting as much service as they normally do, but they don't have anywhere near the ridership that the Queens Boulevard Line does).
With the E extended to Euclid Avenue (as it is because there's no place else on the Eighth Avenue Line to turn it while still having it serve lower Manhattan), and the A running more or less normally, there is no room in the Cranberry Street Tubes for C service -- remember, the section of the line between lower Manhattan and downtown Brooklyn has only two tracks. If/when the E can turn at Chambers Street-(ex-)World Trade Center, the E trains will be out of the Cranberry Street Tubes, and C trains will be able to use them again and go to Euclid Avenue.
David
The C service is horrible. Perhaps the can alter the C service. Run the C from Bedford Pk to Euclid Ave via 6th Avenue/Rutgers St tunnel. Once the C train approach Jay St, switch its original tracks and run local.Send the E train to Lefferts, the A to Far Rockaway. Although with the E train running the Fulton St Local, who needs the C service.
Frank D
not enough train sets.
David, as much as I hate playing the what-if game with service
patterns: What if the E ran normal to W4, then over the F to turn
at Church? Are we looking at track capacity issues on B1/2 ?
If either the E or the F could run express between Church Avenue and Jay Street, I'd say that E trains could turn at Church Avenue during this time. However, with only either the express tracks OR the local tracks (as opposed to the express tracks AND the local tracks) available due to the Bergen Street fire (which has been discussed here a few times), I don't think there's capacity to run full E and F service through the area while still running G trains. Besides, running E trains to Church Avenue requires more trainsets than running them to (ex-)World Trade Center, and those additional trainsets might not be available if C service were operating to Euclid Avenue as it usually does (I'd have to take a look at the line-by-line car requirements during this emergency to know for sure).
David
I have not looked at a track map, but is the E to 2nd Ave a viable option? (Switch at W 4 St to the 6th Ave line, stop at Bway/Lafayette and then terminate at 2nd Ave)?
--Mark
E to Second Avenue works, but from what I understand those in charge try to avoid running regular local service on Sixth and/or Eighth Avenues while something from the Eighth Avenue Line switches to the Sixth Avenue Line because it slows down the railroad. Besides, if the E were to do that, it would be missing lower Manhattan.
David
...from what I understand those in charge try to avoid running regular local service on Sixth and/or Eighth Avenues while something from the Eighth Avenue Line switches to the Sixth Avenue Line because it slows down the railroad.
The railroad wasn't slowed down, when they regularly ran such service in the 30's through 50's. By the late 40's they were running more tph through W 4th than they currently do today or with the E, F and S sharing the local track between W4 and BL.
Besides, if the E were to do that, it would be missing lower Manhattan.
The point is to avoid lower Manhattan because of the WTC catastrophe. The only stations that would have reduced service would be Spring and Canal Strets.
I guess Mr. Bauman just rode his train right through the wide-open hole I left JUST FOR HIM :-)
David
I guess Mr. Bauman just rode his train right through the wide-open hole I left JUST FOR HIM
I'm terribly sorry, I must be dense. Could you please spell out the wide-open hole.
It was the line about adding a switching movement from Eighth Avenue to Sixth Avenue slowing down the service. That's always a trigger!
David
The August 1949 service level map shows the following through W 4th.
Combined A and C service on the 8th Ave express track: 23 tph.
Combined CC and E service on the 8th Ave local track: 30 tph.
Combined D and F service on the 6th Ave local track: 26 tph.
The CC and D terminated at Hudson Terminal: 26 tph.
The E terminated at Bway-Lafayette: 15 tph.
The F terminated at Church Ave: 15 tph.
In August 1949 were there grade timers that clear at 5 MPH at Hudson Terminal/WTC as there are today? Restrictive speed signals which are in the system now which were not in the system in August 1949 inhibit 2001 TPH levels.
At this point things are academic because E service to the WTC (for relaying only) will resume tomorrow.
However, my point was to run the E to 2nd Ave, which your post does not address.
Does what happened means that:
Rector street(1)
South Ferry
Park placer/Chambers street(A,C,E,2,3)
Will be temporarily abandoned and Cortland street(1,N,R) no longer exists because of the location of their fare control(IIRC chambers street has 2 or 3 fare controls and numerus exits far away frm the WTC)?
That's for the NYPD to decide. The Rector Street and South Ferry #1/#9 stations exist, but the structure between Rector Street and Cortlandt Street, and between Cortlandt Street and Chambers Street, has caved in. Those stations will have to remain closed, unless SubTalkers' wish for Lexington Avenue service at South Ferry comes to pass (as far as I am aware, the planners aren't looking at that).
Park Place and Chambers Street are usable.
Cortlandt Street on the N and R has fare controls on the northbound side and an underpass to serve the south side. The station is usable.
David
I don't follow.
The southbound E merges with the C and the F (and soon the V). Apparently it doesn't have much trouble fitting. How much could another merge with the F hurt? (The S is on the express track by W4; it won't get in the way at all.)
As for service to lower Manhattan -- do you really think there are more commuters from Queens to Spring and Canal (i.e., those who lose out if the E diverts to 2nd) than there are from the eight local stations between 145th and 59th to points between 50th and Euclid (i.e., those who lose out if the E runs to Euclid)? Of course, it would be best if the E could turn at WTC (as, apparently, it can), but turning at 2nd and running the full C would appear to be the clear second best.
Good point. Merging E and F trains at W. 4th Street SHOULDN'T hurt...but my understanding is, it does. Perhaps it's an infrastructure issue (slow switch? wheel detector? -- haven't checked to see if one's there) that isn't easily/inexpensively corrected. In any event, it's academic. Unless the NYPD changed NYCT's mind, E trains are now running to (ex-) World Trade Center (without passengers, only to turn) and the C is running again.
David
>>>...E trains are now running to (ex-) World Trade Center (without passengers, only to turn)...<<<
I saw one this AM at about 0430....digital side signs, on the R-46 said "to Canal St" no mention of route. So I gues NYPD didn't talk them out of it. Wanna bet that there will be TONS of TA people at Canal to make sure the trains are empty before going to turn?
Peace,
ANDEE
Are they reversing these E trains in the station itself or on 5 track north of Chambers?
AFAIK, they are turning in the station.
Peace,
ANDEE
Perhaps it's an infrastructure issue (slow switch? wheel detector?
Slow tower operators?
Yes, the towers are slow, the E was also the worst line for wrong line ups (over the budget) BEFORE this happened. I know they covered up a few wrong lineups the first week after the disaster F's goig 8th ave and E's on the 6th. You can't blame a tower for stopping you and double checking your identity, it could mean your job and theirs. Some T/O's still refuse to punch and hate the radio. At rush hour headways it is just a disaster waiting to happen.
If the 8th ave E went to brooklyn Via the F became standard they likely would install wheel detectors at W4th at the leaving end. Merging with the F would also slow down C service when the E waits in station and also the V serivce when the F's have to wait. Plus with V service you would surpass 30 trains per hour at B'WAY.
N/B not fun either.
I'm not discounting slow personnel here, either.
David
[Good point. Merging E and F trains at W. 4th Street SHOULDN'T hurt...but my understanding is, it does.]
Would the fact that it takes E longer than F to reach W4th from Lexington have something to do with it?
Arti
Possibly, but proper use of holding lights on the F line should take care of that (though I'm not sure how much the passengers would like it!).
David
Yeah, Bergen has been discussed before, but I forgot what the
answer was! Obviously they are able to throw the switches
on the upper level where B1&3 tracks come up and merge with
E1&2. What are they doing that with, some sort of temporary machine>
I guess the switches downstairs between B1&3 and B2/B4 are clamped?
They've got something pieced together. I don't believe they are prepared to deal with using both levels -- just one or the other.
David
The plan to run C service starting Monday, 9/24 was being discussed in my office this afternoon (9/21). NYCT tried to run a test train into the E line terminal (known as "World Trade Center" until/unless it's ever renamed) on Friday, 9/21, and was stopped by the NYPD because it's still in the "frozen zone."
Operationally, the station's ready, or at least the tracks within the station are ready to serve as relay tracks for trains discharging at Canal Street. However, until/unless the NYPD gives clearance, the plan to relay trains at this location (and enable resumption of C service) will not happen.
I don't see how the NYPD can refuse to give its clearance. Essential workers such as those for ConEd and Verizon can get access to the security zone around the WTC. Transit is certainly an essential service too.
"I don't see how the NYPD can refuse to give its clearance. Essential workers such as those for ConEd and Verizon can get access to the security zone around the WTC. Transit is certainly an essential service too."
Evidently NYPD disagrees, or at least it did as of Friday afternoon, September 21. By Monday morning, September 24, perhaps it will have changed its collective mind. Any objections? Take them up with NYPD. Transit would love to have (ex-) WTC back.
David
"Evidently NYPD disagrees, or at least it did as of Friday afternoon, "
The police are probably not so worried about transit crews in there, and maybe not even trains, but they would worry about the possibity of passengers riding into the area.
It would probably be too difficult to assure that the train was completely emptied at Canal Street, but then it should not be too much of a problem to keep an officer on the WTC platform to arrest for tresspass any bloke who sticks his nose off of the train.
Of course if the station is removed from mainline service, then insurance or whatever will have fits if some railfan or such tries to sneak a trip into the RESTRICTED AREA!
Maybe we could post a CIA officer there to keep an eye on things.
(You know, from the City Infrastructure Administration).
Elias
I just got back from 207 yard we brought up 30 cars from Pitkin and the day shift may bring more, they have been washed and they are going to bring extra board conductors to change all the signs.
They better have C service restored!
The notice for resuming C service was sent on TA letterhead to all RTO locations in the B division.
Good! Let's hope the crews and tower/dispatching personnel don't get arrested... :-)
David
I could do with a few days off.
But not with "Bubba".
So with the 1/9 line going to New Lots become a thing that will last for a considerable time. When are new signs indicating this change be put up? Cause they still say that trains go to South Ferry. I know its probably in the making as we speak but will they be up on Monday?
I've been watching the 1 trains all week. Most of if not all have has New Lots Ave on their side signs seperated from the 242St sign. With the 1's being the newer cars (R-62s?) it's just a matter of the train crew changing them. Not like years gone by where the route and destinations were all one.
Uhh... I think Mr. Rivera meant
the station platform overhead signs...
...not the in-car scrollsigns.
Right now I think they will wait to see what happens with the N/R because such a signage change will match or exceed the Manhattan bridge Changes. If the change will persist for I'd say 6 months or so then look for temporary signage changes such as was done for the Lenox Project.
The 1 trains will be going to New Lots for at least the next 2-3 years. I spoke with a TSS that walked 1 track from Chambers st. and he said that he stopped after about 500 ft. That was close enough for him.
Just like the subway maps.
Sept 11. The bombing
Sept 17 Sheet maps in B&W available at booths
Sept 19 New sheet maps in B&W available at booths.
Sept 21 Color maps now available at booths
Sept 24 New regular Offical maps should be at booths
It'll take a while before every sign on the 1 line is changed to reflect the new route. And there will be a few who will not read the signs and think the 1 still goes to the ferry. Doesn't matter if it's overhead, free-standing or in the booth signs.
New Official maps already in some booths. They have a red "slash" running diagonally across the top right corner. Effective date is 9/19/2001. It codifies the 9/19/2001 service plan and shows Wall St 4/5 as open. It also went back to the 9/17/01 idea of totally removing the lower Manhattan N/R and Lower Manhattan 1 line.
In the eyes of this lifelong 1 line citizen,
the 1 will always go to the ferry...
if not now, it will again.
It just will.
In light of the recent decent demand for rail travel and the demand for tighter security, Amtrak is asking the federal govt. for 3 Billion dollars. The money will go towards repairing 50 damage railcars now in storage, improving safety and security, updating the power system on the NEC and re-habbing the tunnels in NYC, Baltimore and Washington DC.
Recently Amtrak says it has added 1,600 daily seats to long-distance trains; 300 daily seats to West Coast trains; and 2,000 daily seats to unreserved Northeast Corridor trains to meet the new demands being placed on the passenger rail system. Through September 18 it had transported "237 extra carloads of mail" above normal levels.
Sens. Hutchison (R-TX) and Commerce Chairman Hollings (D-SC). Both senators from five states signed: Delaware (Biden & Carper), Maryland (Mikulski and Sarbanes), Massachusetts (Kennedy and Kerry), New Jersey (Corzine and Torricelli), New York (Clinton and Schumer). Other signers: Chafee (R-RI), Environment & Public Works Chairman Jeffords (I-VT), Reid (D-NV) and Specter (R-PA) sent a letter supporting the extra money for Amtrak.
Sen. Kerry was heard on the radio today saying that he would not support any separate bailout for the airlines without including Amtrak. He also talked about need for a balanced transportation system.
Oh my! Is there actually hope for Amtrak now?! I guess the government finally realizes that giving card blanche to one sector of the transportation industry without any regulations and full political support is a disaster waiting to happen.
Because of a lack of reaserch/information the dates for the Second avenue plan will be pushed back to October 1 or September 30(I just want to get everyone's mind of these tragedy's).
What year? (sorry, couldn't help myself) :)
20001, (not a typo) of course.
Dan
Phase 1 includes....
Phase 1 is the rough draft of my version of the complete Second Avenue line.The difference between this line and teorignal plas is that this plan more less resembles older plans with 4 tracks exept mine :
1.Has a connection with LGA
2.Goes to SI
3.Has an extra trunk line(this line is a parial replica of the 2 and 5 line)
4.Connects to every subway line in the city
5.Uses abandoned stations,previously thought of lines,and uses no longer used of names(H,K,T).
This also includes construction methods and other possible connections(which includes a state of the art platform which is accesable by IND,BMT and IRT cars).Posting September 30 or Octobe 1.
Dream on.
I suspect your version resembles mine:
1. Four tracks between 86th and Houston.
2. Tube at 86th St to Astoria, LGA and Shea Stadium, thence South via VanWyck into back-end of JFK, interchanging with extended Archer line.
3. Tube at Houston to Williamsburg, into B-Q crosstown line (G); new leg of BQ x-town at Bedford (I think it is, the one with 3 platforms) to NY Junction.
4. Tube to Atlantic Ave in Brooklyn, to Court St and into Culver at Smith St/Atlantic Ave. Culver connected to Brighton line via Prospect Park.
5. Western leg at 86th to interchange 8th Av line at CWP, then west to Amsterdam, south under Amsterdam/10th to WTC, interchanging with extended 14th St line; most lines have direct airport service.
6. In Bronx, takes over Dyre line, extended to Co-Op City. IND Concourse line extended to new terminal/interchange with Dyre line.
Colossally expensive. It'll never get built.
Sounds mostly like the IND Second System of 1929 to me.
Wrong
1.4 tracks ALL the way until South Ferry.
2.Only Laguadia.No JFK,Shea,Van Wyck and no connection with the E.And a COMPLETE TUBE.
3.My plan goes along Bergen street in Brooklyn until ENY avenue.Then on the L until Glenmore ave to Van Syclin ave until Seaview avenue
4.The closestmy plan goes to the Culver line is at Smith street.Brighton at Atlantic.
5.Only a connection with the A & C at Bway Junction.
6.The cloest my line is to Dyre is at Gun Hill road the last northermost stop.
I haven't even seen your plan.
Hi,
I live in atlanta now (marta is crap) but my mother lives in Brooklyn in an apt building. She has been using the master antenna on top of the building for 20 years. When the towers collapsed, she hasnt gotten any reception since.
Any ideas? She dreads getting cable, should she just get it?
Thanks for any help.
Allen
Channel 4 is, or will be in the next couple of days, operating on channel 4 from a site in northern New Jersey. Channel 9 will be back after the weekend and most of the other stations are already or are about to be back from low power transmitters atop Empire or other locations. Since I'm not down yonder, dunno for sure.
The replacement signals WILL be weaker and it's possible that one of those amplified "set top antennas" might suffice though Brooklyn is a bit of a distance and the power levels will not be anything near what they were before. If anything, the Master Antenna upstairs would likely need to be moved to a new position and who knows if the landlord would be willing to pay for it when they get paid a small amount by the cable operators NOT to fix it.
If there's a Rat Shack nearby, perhaps she could visit one and see what the "fishing" is like. At any elevation above ground in her apartment, she is likely to have better reception than will be possible at street level in a store. The remaining question is what condition the TV set is in - if it's only a couple of years old, she should be able to provide reception the old-fashioned way (by moving a pair of rabbit ears with each station change) but if the set is an older one, it might not possess the sensitivity to properly receive the now weaker signals. This will actually be the deciding factor since she should be able to watch all of the local channels from an antenna on the set though they won't be as good as before.
And I can certainly understand her sensibilities. When you're used to off-air only, the extortionate price for 60 or more channels of crap you'll never watch are pretty substantial.
I ought to clarify "Rat Shack" means "Radio Shack" ... to those of us in the electronics biz, they're the Home Depot of electronics. You don't buy REAL parts there. But they have some import crap that should work well ENOUGH and a pretty reasonable price. Then it's just a matter of having her hook it up to the back of the set where the master antenna is connected now. All it needs is a screwdriver or a butter knife to do it.
yea, i know rat shack well... thanks for your help... i appreciate it!
You're most welcome. If she's down in the southern half of Brooklyn, the signals will be a bit crusty, but they'll be there. Most folks can handle a crusty signal. The nearest Rat Shack by where she lives should be able to serve up a demo of about the same quality or a bit less quality than she'll get "upstairs" ... but the big question will be what kind of quality of TV set she has.
There's still a number of those old not so sensitive "consoles" out there and some of them just aren't up to the task. Then again, she'll probably be a tad nostalgic for the old bunnyears. :)
All the major TV stations in the New York City area are transmitting from Alpine N.J. Its about 10 miles north from the GW bridge. Just point the antenna towards the north for a clearer picture. It’s not as good as before, but it’s better than nothing.
Paul
This isn't gonna help S.Brooklyn,S.I., and parts of central NJ much though as the signal will experience severe ghosting from Manhattan's skyline. This happens alot on radio, around the C.I. yards FM reception is not very clear at all. I imagine TV is even worse.
Like I said, cable companies should do the right thing and offer the broadcast channels for free.
(This isn't gonna help S.Brooklyn,S.I., and parts of central NJ much though as the signal will experience severe ghosting from Manhattan's skyline.)
I can tell you for a fact that here in Windsor Terrace, using rabit ears on a 1 1/2 year old set, you can barely see the picture through the snow and barely here the broadcast through the white noise. Essentially, the only stations we get relatively cleary are CBS, and UHF 21, 25 and 50. They were the worst stations before. They're the best now.
But I won't give in to the cable theives. I don't know what you've heard elsehwhere, but in NYC they gouge you for almost $40 just to get the most basis service.
I have satellite TV from DISH NETWORK. Costs the same as much as basic cable, depending on how many channels you choose (25, 50, 100, or ULTIMATE 150) including CD channels.
Costs anywhere between $17 (basic service), and $40 (flexible and more channels & options). Rates can also be in between.
This type of TV interception need not antennas for their view, but is in contact with a satellite revolving around the earth for its pictures.
Although, because of this, very bad weather can interfere with the signal, but this is rare.
Satellite outages due to weather are the result of either:
A) VERY tall storm clouds with a LOT of moisture (5-10 minutes max)
B) Snow and ice on the dish - get a broom or install a heater
For what it's worth, we looked at Dish and went with the other guys but EITHER of them beats all hell out of cable. In New York City, BOTH provide New York TV from CBS, NBC, FOX, ABC, Univision and Telemundo. You're on your own for the rest (rabbit ears) ...
And you don't have to feed the PowerCableGasoPhone company. :)
Kevin, in June of 1996 our DirecTV dish went out for hours.
Of course we did get 12 inches of rain in a period of about 4 hours.
We were too busy trying to prevent our basement from becoming a swimming pool to know when our dish finally got a signal again.
Rain that severe would have also knocked out most of a cable system's signals as well since they use Ku band (dead center in the water vapor resonant frequencies too) ... if your outage lasted THAT long, I'd actually suspect foliage bent in front of the dish and caused the outage rather than atmospheric-based ... we get some really good gully washers upstate here, including one a few weeks ago that dropped 4 inches in an hour. We lost signal for about two minutes.
Might want to check your trees - the look angle is rather steep and the angle of the dish fools you into thinking it's lower. Since it's an offset feed, you're really looking at about 42 degrees off vertical assuming a latitude near NYC. Trees can really screw up the signal, especially when the leaves are wet and drooping in front of it.
Only probelm with this sceme is you lose emergency info specific to your region, if a regional station is not available.
-Hank
We've had emergencies up here before - when the Mechanicville tornado came through here a couple of years ago, the weather channel was way too busy whining about the rain in Atlanta and their "boat and beach forecast" ... up here, we use the NOAA radio station and it's right on the money. TWC put up a notification about an hour after it went through since most of their "live weather programming" is on TAPE.
Another aspect of life up here is that each TV station (which also knows the uselessness of TWC being picked as the "official" EBS facility) all have their own monitoring and policies which put them IMMEDIATELY on air. Despite the federal mandates for EBS activation of all-channel alerts for cable operators, TWCable also failed to interrupt and has fought the requirement for "I.F. insertion" for years. That too was a reason for the Cable Commission to be killed since that was something we strongly advocated for. The argument, "but it will interfere with the movie and our ad insertions" ... no joke. I actually had to sit and listen to this when I worked for the state. SCREW 'em ...
The little dishes seem to be pretty popular in Queens. I see many sprouting up from buildings near the 7 train.
Which brings up their BIGGEST drawback-if you can't clearly see south (ie, you don't facethat way, or there's a bigger building there) you can't get service.
-Hank
Actually, a lot of buildings DO have "master antenna service" which you don't get out here in the sticks - then again, if something's standing in the way of reception here, we either chop it down or blow it up. Heh.
A company called "RCN" has a LOT of master antenna setups with a pizza pan on the roof feeding it all. But yeah, if I lived in the city and couldn't get me a southwest bead on the sky, that lease would be in flames. :)
Apartment buildings, at least the older ones from the pre-cable TV days, quite often have something sometimes known as a "community antenna system" on the roof. Back in the day, these consisted of a decent sized mast or rig with several antennas to receive FM radio and television broadcasts.
The antennas on the mast or rig would generally be oriented in several directions so that each antenna was optimised for the best reception of broadcasts originating within a given pie slice radiating out from the building, with a full complement of antennas providing complete coverage to all the areas where transmitters were located. Thick cables were run down inside the building with branches into each apartment where at least one jack was provided for people to connect their TVs and stereo receivers. When cable came along these systems fell by the wayside until it was discovered that on some building the antenna rigs were great place to locate cellular phone equipment and more recently a great place to anchor a pizza dish satellite dish and associated setup to provide satellite TV recption in much the same way as before except the cabling's different and people need to have decoding boxes in their apartments.
This setup with the single pizza dish for an entire building has been done in a number of buildings where I live where the local cable company has been entirely kicked out of at least a few apartment buildings because they, having a secure monopoly until pizza dishes became practical, were playing very fast and loose with contract requirements.
-Robert King
All of which means is that it isn't necessary to have a clear shot to the southwest sky to get satellite service in at least a few buildings!
-Robert King
Bad weather affects broadcast TV pretty often. There's lots of drifting in the wintertime when it is windy.
Here in Bensonhurst, the TV's no good either...
Except for Channel 2. As the other networks should have learned in 1993, it's always a good idea to have a backup that's warm and ready in the event of a major problem with the primary. ESPECIALLY when your market contains more than 10 million persons. Westinghouse never took down their original Empire transmitter, so...
-Hank
In my experience, I've found the reverse: Most older TV sets are much better at pulling a watchable and listenable signal off a pair of rabbit ears than newer ones which are so selective they must be connected to a high power, high signal to noise ratio line like a cable TV cable otherwise they won't be able to lock on and show a picture and give decent sound. Older TVs which were designed for antenna reception almost always seem to fare better when connected to an antenna than newer TVs which weren't designed with antenna reception in mind as a critical design paramater.
To lighten things up a little bit, this is how I used to watch TV up until recently (last year). I had a Beta HiFi VCR connected to a pair of rabbit ears was used for three purposes: A VCR, a television reciever and high quality audio tape recorder. The RCA audio connections were connected to one of the three tape loops in my stereo to provide the sound when watching TV (and to serve as an audio tape recorder) and the video was sent to an old Amiga monitor to show the picture. That was a great setup and it worked very well.
-Robert King
Interesting. I guess some of those sets never got tweaked properly at the factory - you DO have to back off the RF AGC adjustment to the tuner to prevent herringbones from adjacent channels on cable and if you can get to the RF AGC pot on the chassis and let it loose, everything comes up nicely.
When we ditched AOL cable here and went with the bird bath, we had to go fishing for our own locals (maybe when there are 200 satellites up there, our 65th TV market stations might be added some day) and so natch, being one of them broadcast types with an FCC First Class ticket (none of this silly "general" nonsense in THIS house heh) I immediately went up on the roof, cut me some metal and put in a distribution amp so I'm up to cable levels here. Alas, since we're using RG/6U for distribution, the UHF's suck dead donkey lung compared to our local V's and there's only so much tilt you can get out of today's "broadband amplifiers" (not in the mood to build a wall of striplines) it's a bit dicey on some channels that we don't watch (UPN/WB) so we're cool.
But yeah, should have thought of that. So many sets though use channel 3 output from a converter box and thus usually will work just fine though they look pretty crappy with raw unconverted signals applied. But yeah, as usual you're right.
As an American, my apologies for the slights of our leaders towards our noble neighbors to the north - those of us living upstate SAW how much CP shippage you guys were doing through here to the city in their hour of need and I watched the town meeting on CBC's National the other night out of Toronto. Therefore, on behalf of those who only know what CNN tells them (which ain't much), I want to thank YOU and your neighbors for doing what you've always done when those of us down here needed a hand. Please tell your friends at home that we noticed, and we're VERY appreciative even if our leader poked you guys in the eye.
As an American, my apologies for the slights of our leaders towards our noble neighbors to the north - those of us living upstate
SAW how much CP shippage you guys were doing through here to the city in their hour of need and I watched the town
meeting on CBC's National the other night out of Toronto. Therefore, on behalf of those who only know what CNN tells them
(which ain't much), I want to thank YOU and your neighbors for doing what you've always done when those of us down here
needed a hand. Please tell your friends at home that we noticed, and we're VERY appreciative even if our leader poked you
guys in the eye.
No problem. It's quite well known here that the people on the diverted airplanes that landed all over Canada were very appreciative of what we've been doing. Not many people I've spoken to are surprised about Bush's neglect to mention Canada in the thank-yous because he's been indifferent at best towards the country right from the time he became president.
-Robert King
From the "soft wood" issues to the "nat gas" issues, we're only too keenly aware down here of how important Canada is to us all and are forever grateful that you're there for us ... AS ALWAYS. May not be a word of gratitude from the "powers that be" but us ordinary folk are eternally grateful and we KNOW how much Canada has done for us and won't ever forget or lose our gratitude. :)
(Not many people I've spoken to are surprised about Bush's neglect to mention Canada in the thank-yous because he's been indifferent at
best towards the country right from the time he became president.)
Don't complain. At least Canada is a foreign country. How about the indifference (or outright hostility and exploitation) of New York until a couple of weeks ago.
As said by MTA Chairman Kalikow about NY's share of federal transportation funding "these people need to realize that New York is part of the United States, not a foreign country or colony."
Some of the stations are supposedly using low-power stations in the area, until their own signals are up and running again.
Cable would still be a good move for your mother. For a low price, she can get all over-the-air stations via cable, resulting in much better picture quality. She'll even get some cable stations for free. Price is about $16 a month.
God forbid Cable would've provided free broadcast channels during this crisis. It saddens me that some companies (note Mr.Dolan head of Cablevision) care more about making money than providing a service during this difficult time.
I know that Time Warner let Ch.35 over-the-air show NY1 News for free during the crisis. Not sure if it's still the case. Dolan is Cablevision, and from what I hear, I'm lucky that I don't live in their coverage area.
Cablevision was ALWAYS a class act compared to AOL cable. Up here in Smallbany we were a ChuckieVision system. When AOL/TimeWeenie came in and ditched Bravo, IFC, Encore and Starz, we chopped the cable up into little one inch macaronis and left them in a box by the street. Went with pizza pan. Haven't regretted the move to the birdbath ONE BIT.
BOTH of them chew it.
But you must have DirecTV or Dish.
Eventually, there will be one or two cable systems left in the country. Consolidation in the cable industry will continue.
Dish is OK if Turner is your idea of haute cuisine - we've got the General Motors bird and it's actually QUITE good. They actually believe in customer service, are pleasant and RELIABLE. Out here in the sticks, if you call TimeofyourAOLWeenie and they FEEL like answering the phone at all, they're not in any hurry to restore service.
We actually marked up a calendar of outages and their duration and found that in a single month, we had service for 9 days and were down for 21. The pictures always looked crappy and I got sick of watching Sister Cleo and that stupid singing fish on the wall. DirecTV is a class act and if the picture DOES go away, I go outside, whipe a broom across the pizza pan to knock the snow off it and the picture is back. No more busted blood vessels being stood up by "cable butt crack guy" whenever they felt like showing up, trying to sell me HBO.
If you've got a shot to the southwest out of your building, you can do it too. Life is SO much happier and the NYC stations are there as well as Chicago and Los Angeles. East and WEST COAST feeds of all the movies, pay one price. Try THAT on cable.
Cable systems usually experience significant "down time" in the sticks. Whenever there is lightning, you can figure cable will be out. Sometimes I think satellite has peaked, and cable systems will hold onto their monopolies. For a while, many thought satellite would threaten the cable systems. Not sure if that's the case anymore.
Cablevision was ALWAYS a class act compared to AOL cable
Maybe one company or the other allows more independence of their local subsidiaries, but here in the city, I'd rather use a torn up power cable as an antenna like I did in 1993-94.
From what I've heard from everyone but you (no offense intended), Time Warner in Manhattan, Queens and Staten Island is far better.
Maybe they don't force you to lease their converter. And they actually offer digital cable, or have plans to implement it.
I also have DirecTV, I can't get local cable channels like NY1. It's a small price to pay for quality.
Well, there's a different history up here and I have my own baggage. Since this is a one-time swing way off topic for here, I'll explain but once I do I'm done with the thought - this ought to serve to put my rants into perspective. I used to work for Manhattan Cable years and years ago and worked for TelePromPter when they first built upper Manhattan - worked for the NYS Cable Commission and the Public Service Commission as a result - so I know a lot more about every cable operation in the state than many still in the industry.
It may WELL be true that inside the city, AOL's better than Chuckie but both operate in many other parts of the state and the country as a whole. Operations outside of New York City are VERY different and AOL is trying to monopolize by buying up everything they can find. Under the law, there's SUPPOSED to be "competition" where company A is encouraged to overbuild company B and if you don't like one, you can sign up with the other. NEVER happened.
Up here, we have the former "Capital Cablevision" (and yes, they spelled capitol with an A) which was always owned by Time/Life and south of Albany, there was "Adams Russell" which was a Boston based company. AR Cable used the system in Rensselaer/Bethlehem and the Berkshires as an experimental platform since AR was a division of Microwave Associates, a military contractor. As a result, where I lived, we had 37 channels at a time when 15 was "state of the art" for TimeWarner and 77 channels to TW's 36 as a result of AR's experimentation with broadband microwave and 1550 nM fiber optic.
TimeWarner only wants to show THEIR channels, consisting of HBO and Turner twaddle. If you wanted Showtime or Starz, you had to take them to court - even in NYC, the only reason why there was *ONE* Showtime channel is the result of a trial. AR and Cablevision, who bought AR upon the bankruptcy of AR/MA, had the obligatory HBO to keep the trailer parks happy, but they also provided Starz, Encore, Movie Channel, Showtime, IFC, Bravo, Sundance, you name it.
When TimeWarner forced CableVision to sell their system to TW, all of that went byebye. A perfectly functional cable system that worked reliably was replaced with all the cheesy equipment that TW used and the pictures went straight to hell. Cross-mod, excessive amplifier noise, hum bars and ground loops replaced a picture that looked ALMOST as good as you get from the birdies.
Out in the sticks here, where cascades of 60 amplifiers are not uncommon on a trunk, you'd BETTER have techs that have an idea of how to tweak them since the first three amplifiers IN a cascade tend to have the most effect on what pictures look like. Levels all over the place cause cross-mod. Suckout of grounds cause humbars and TW's clowns clearly had no idea of how to go about repairing this. Add to this that ground loops tend to make fuses blow, then you have widespread outages that last a good long time while Moe, Larry and Curly try to figure out where the signals went away. Add a dash of "we don't get paid enough to answer the phone" and you have what is known upstate as the "TimeWeenie Experience" ... that's why satellite is so popular up here because the cable company is NOT. At last measure, I think the figure is 78% satellite and it's not like there's any large areas of upstate that AREN'T wired for cable, we all just don't like them.
Then there's the personal angle. TimeWarner gave Paturkey a lot of money to kill the Cable Commission when he was elected since the Cable Commission actually demanded that TW fix at least those problems that could result in death or injury (bad grounding and bonding) and tried to encourage them to make channels that they didn't own available to subscribers when they rebuilt their systems for greater channel capacity. The agency was funded by a franchise fee that they no longer pay, not from the general tax base. That put me out of work.
However, my own disdain is the result of their complete lack of service and taking away 17 channels that I preferred. They're on the satellite though, so I'm once again happy. It's still 37 channels in TW land and they've moved what little that was any good to their "digital cable" ... sorry, it ain't worth $105 a month in the upstate economy, and up here, Rut Rudder is down more than it's up just like their TV. And I've SEEN NY1. (yawn. amateur hour.)
So there ya are - the whys and wherefores - TW sucks. :)
I hate to break it to you, but TV is not an essential service.
I very rarely watch TV. When I lived alone, I didn't have a TV. Instead of spending money on cable TV, I spent it on cable modem -- and, as you can see here, made very good use of that service.
Don't you have to have cable TV subscription to have a modem?
Absolutely not. Some companies (e.g., Time Warner) give a discount for customers who have both cable TV and cable modem (or, if you prefer, charge a surcharge for those who order one without the other). Others (e.g., AT&T, who serviced my former apartment in Illinois) don't. (Then again, I have been unable to successfully cancel my service with AT&T since I moved out in January. I'm still receiving bills; now they're warning that my service will be disconnected if I don't pay. Good!)
Then again, I have been unable to successfully cancel my service with AT&T since I moved out in January. I'm still receiving bills; now they're warning that my service will be disconnected if I don't pay. Good!
Maybe not so good. They might be reporting the non-payment to the credit bureaus. You should check your credit reports and be prepared to dispute the items if necessary.
I know the cable companies wouldn't go for this idea, but why not offer just the broadcast channels for free? Didn't they do this sometime ago?
I've heard nothing but negative as it relates to the old TV/Radio tower being used in Alpine, NJ. People on other boards have thought aloud about using the Chrysler Building in Midtown. Isn't the Empire State Building (crowded as it already is) the tallest building in NYC now? Who has used Alpine besides WNBC-TV (NBC)? [NOTE: AT&T Broadband here in greater Hartford carries MSG and the occasional Mets game from Fox Sports NY. We no longer get any of the NY area TV stations.]
Harford does not get the NY stations anymore, because the locals have signed up for UPN, FOX, and WB, so they won't let the old Superstations like WPIX-11 or WWOR-9 broadcast up there.
Yet, Waterbury does get some NY stations. Strange.
My guess is that a second antenna will be added to the Empire State Building if you can have two antennas next to each other without any kind of interference.
We'll see if the NY stations lose ratings from a weaker antenna, or if most people just watch on cable/satellite, which won't effect ratings.
Why would they need a second antenna atop the ESB? From where did the TV stations broadcast before 1979? They all existed.
1979? Is that the year they put the big antenna on top of the ESB?
I honestly don't know where stations broadcasted from in the old days.
100000watts.com lists where every station in the country broadcasts from.
Remember, the Tower in Chicago has two Antennas because nearly every station in that city broadcasts from there. It stands to reason that with one tall building (ESB), the same would happen in NY.
There are other tall buildings. Why don't they use the Chrysler building or the Citicorp tower at 53rd and Lex?
They used to be up on Empire with a VERY special set of piping which allowed ALL of New York's TV's and some of the FM's to all put their output power into a single mast. I wrote it up before here:
http://subtalk.nycsubway.org/cgi-bin/subtalk.cgi?read=267905
True to an extent. Our cable system here in greater Hartford once carried channels 5, 9, 11 and WSBK-TV (UPN), channel 38 from Boston. The other reason these stations were dropped was because of SYNDEX (Syndicated Exclusivity). The cable company had too many holes to fill I guess. WSBK-TV and WWOR-TV's Eastern Microwave Service (EMI?) were on our system until the end of 1999.
The Empire State Building used to broadcast TV stations before WTC took over. Is there a problem why they can't switch back. I did notice that after the WTC attack when TV reception was severed that Ch.2 switched to an alternate antenna while the others didn't.
Bill "Newkirk"
""The Empire State Building used to broadcast TV stations before WTC took over. Is there a problem why they can't switch back.""
--------------------------------------------------------------------
I didn't know the Empire State Bldg stopped broadcasting TV at some point.
Some of the stations that lost their signal at the WTC have already switched back to the Empire State Bldg. Others are using a location in NJ.
I'd like to know why no one used the Citicorp building in Long Island City. They already have some smaller stations broadcasting from there. In this day and age, as long as the local cable system carries your signal, you're in business.
Empire had a *VERY* special antenna system for the TV's when they were up there, it was designed by DuMont's people back in the 1940's and used a very special "plumbing arrangement" that allowed so many transmitters to feel into a common mast antenna with proper matching and power division.
The gent who designed it died in 1962. When the TV's left, the old "plumbing" was removed and simplified for those that remained, mostly FM's. FM's had originally used those weird hand-like metal thingies around the building just underneath the glass on the 86th. After the TV's went south, some remained on that old antenna system while others moved to a modified mast up top.
The problem with Empire (aside from lack of space) is that no one knows how the old plumbing was designed. Any attempt to reproduce it without knowing how would only damage transmitters as they back-EMF'd into one another. The "art" is lost and to do what is commonly done these days as a substitute requires more space than there is up there now.
When I worked for Metromedia/WNEW and Mitch Katz was chiefie there, he explained how it all worked but even he had a fleeting feel for how it all worked. What Mitch DID know was how to adjust his own port for his own transmitters into the plumbing and was even at his old age marvelling in how it "shouldn't work but does work and remarkably well at that" ... they'll NEVER reproduce what once was up there. And yes, I used to work up there on transmitter duty myself. As an aside, let's bow our heads for a moment in memory of ALL of the transmitter operators up on WTC who kept signals lit to the very end and went down with their ship. I knew four of them.
What NYC is getting for TV is about all you're going to get for the foreseeable future. Reception will require an amplified antenna, cable or remember that satellite has the NYC stations alive and well there also. But things are not going to be getting back to "normal" for TV until new facilities are designed, and then built. It's going to be a while. I know, I've designed and built TV stations.
The problem with Empire (aside from lack of space) is that no one knows how the old plumbing was designed. Any attempt to reproduce it without knowing how would only damage transmitters as they back-EMF'd into one another. The "art" is lost and to do what is commonly done these days as a substitute requires more space than there is up there now.
Incredible. And incredibly sad and stupid. Surely there must have been some kind of drawings showing how things worked. Did this one man build the whole setup with his own hands? Even if he did, you'd think he must have left some written description of what he did. He knew he wouldn't be around forever.
Most things electronic have been miniaturized over the last several decades and now use a fraction of the space they once would have. It is hard to believe that there are things that we *can't* fit today into the space that we were able to put them in the 1940s.
Possible transit relevance: How about that train tunnel that leads to the Hudson River shoreline in (I think) Weehawken - the one that an extension of the HBLR is supposed to use - as a site for a new transmission tower, either mounted above the east portal, or next to it?
In order to understand it, you have to understand how broadcasting was way back in 1947/48 when that stuff started getting built by WNBT4 and WABD/5 (DuMont) ... back in the earliest days of television, the TV stations were ALL owned by TV set makers - RCA (NBC), DuMont, Columbia/CBS-Hytron and the others. All of them considered their designs to be "trade secrets" not shared with the others.
Empire was a "surreptitious" arrangement from the beginning, conceived by electronics gearheads who cooperated with one another in their own best interests of building up their equipment and making sure that what the OTHER GUY did didn't screw up THEIR equipment.
Informal arrangements not shared with the wigs was the order of the day. Job security entailed not allowing anyone else to know what the various Chief Engineers were doing. So they cooperated in secret and built the foundations for Empire's "antenna farm" and found that using unusual piping (waveguide and rigid line) and then using the proverbial "Magic Tee" to couple all of the signals into a single mast was FAR better than everyone putting up their own antenna which would interfere with one another.
As time went on, the cobbery was further cobbed to add more transmitters (channels 7, 9, 11 and 13) and FM transmitters which operated above channel 6 but below channel 7. What may have been a drawable design mutated with each new "port" added and rebalancing of the other ports so nobody had flames coming down into their own transmitter cabinet.
Bear in mind that each of these transmitters operated in excess of 100,000 kilowatts EACH ... pretty tall order if you consider it - all that energy flying around and one wrong move could spell disaster for everyone on the same pipe. But it didn't get written down for those reasons and others. Amazingly, SOME of the old Empire plumbing found its way to the rooftop at WTC out of sheer necessity. That's gone too.
VHF and UHF signals depend primarily on HAAT (Height Above Average Terrain) but power is also necessary. With WTC gone, the height is gone and even at the same power levels as before, the signal isn't going to get out the same.
Some who remember NYC TV prior to WTC remember how MUCH WTC screwed up reception to the north and northeast of the city. At first, prior to the moves off empire, it was ghost city as far as reception in these areas and after the move, those areas got rather weak and ghosty signals.
But as someone who understands transmitters and antennas (I've lit up 5 MEGAWATT UHF's myself) TV reception in NYC will never be what it was again, especially in truly outlying areas. And the promise of digital won't make much difference other than the absolute nature of digital - instead of gently eroding with distance like analog, it'll be either you get it or you don't ...
But you can't just whip up a tower and go back on the air - the RADIATION from broadcast facilities is extreme. Anyone within the "blanket contour" of the transmitters will die. No joke. Ask any old timer with leukemia from working television or FM if TV towers are safe. Gonna have to settle for what you get - until such time as there's something else that's shielded enough to make it safe for those inside a tall building to put the TV's back as they were before.
Finally, "miniaturization" has ZERO effect on the size of the plumbing and antenna equipment for broadcasters. Antenna structures and their "plumbing" are a function of both power output requirements and frequencies. This part of science doesn't change with advances in technology. You STILL need the same stuff today as you did in 1947.
Wow - Selkirk, thanks for the "TV and the Information Age" lesson!
--Mark
You're welcome ... just one of many interesting things this squirrel has done over the years to earn their biweekly nut. (I loved that analogy that I *think* Zman posted months ago) ...
FM reception in Queens is much better with the WTC Twin towers gone. I remember listening to NYC radio stations on the 7 train and experiencing bad interference west of Queensboro plaza. But when I rode the 7 and listened to 105.1 all the way up until the tunnel.
But it is amazing all the FM's atop the Empire State Building. I never knew an antenna could hold so much. But does audio seem to suffer? I think most LI radio stations do have a better dynamic range than those in NYC, for example. Also SCA's suffer. The NYC Muzak carrier on 101.9's SCA is pretty scratchy compared to the carrier on 101.3 in New Haven,CT.
Kevin,
Your post has been referenced on The New York Radio Message Board Thought you might find that amusing.
Peace,
ANDEE
Looks like I was wrong then ... I posted the following there:
Name: Kevin McAleavey
E-Mail: support@nsclean.com
Subject: Re: Re: Re: Some interesting posts on NY tv after WTC destruction
Body of Message:
I'm "SelkirkTMO" who posted that and I apologize for being wrong there. I left the city in 1974 and left NYC radio in 1972
and at the time, was told that what had been built at Empire would never be replicated.
I'm actually glad to hear that what was built CAN be reproduced. Back when I worked Empire, I worked for both Mitch Katz (WNEW) and Gil Abbey (WBGO/WHBI) and this is what I was told at the time.
As an aside, anybody remember a pirate from the Bronx called WXVU 107.9 that existed from 1971 through 1975? That was me. :)
Link: Privacy Software Corp.
Added on Date: 18:16:02 09/27/01
Ah, I took a quick read through that cluster of messages on the newsgroup through the link provided earlier. I spent the past few days scratching my head about this because I was about 90% sure that what was on top of Empire State could be reconstructed for a variety of reasons and that it was some sort of multiplexing setup but I don't know enough about antenna design, especially on the transmission side of things, to figure out either exactly why it couldn't be done or how to go and actually do it. That clears that up then, but I still need to learn a heck of a lot more about antennas which is the biggest gap in my knowledge of electronics and obviously needs to be filled in.
-Robert King
I had been up in the ceiling in Empire back before everything moved off and it truly was a kludge of all sorts of phosphor bronze, brass fittings, large paint can tubs and sliding metal. At the time I was told that what was interconnected was all "one of a kind stuff, handmade" and when some of it was lost in a flashover in the 1960's, the replacement parts didn't work anywhere near as well as the older stuff that nobody knew how to rebuild.
Since it was mostly the oldtimers who would even touch that stuff, and their perennial caution of "don't muck with it, if anything bad happens call me or this other guy, DO NOT touch it" was good enough for me. Basically if you couldn't stop a cabinet arc by adjusting the couplings, you took it down and waited. I've talked to other SBE (Society of Broadcast Engineers) brothers upstate since I moved and the consensus was largely that after the move to WTC, the signals did NOT get out quite the same as on the old system and a lot of modifications had to be done to the new antenna site to bring it close to what had once been.
The old design on Empire allowed the power to be nicely nulled to the southeast (after all, fish don't need signals) and after the move to WTC, a good amount of power was lost headed out to sea. I can only go by what I've been told - was also told that some of the old plumbing found its way to WTC as well. But I'll defer to anyone who actually WORKED the site - I left before the move.
Up here where I am, it's a bit saner. Most of the TV's here on on the escarpment in western Albany county while others are located on other mountaintops. But for each station, you've gotta move your metal since they're all in different directions and no single orientation works for more than one or two channels.
Several corrections and updates:
There are still companies that build fm and tv diplexers, which are the filter networks that allow multiple transmitters to mix into a common antenna.
The old master FM antenna that the FM's commonly fed was two rings of those T arms around the 102nd floor observatory, NOT the 86th floor.
That antenna's called the Alford and we still have inputs to it for backup and maintenance use.
AND there is work going on now, installation of higher power transmitters for several TV stations, so things will get progressively better, soon.
AND noone thinks people keel over from RF, or most of us would not be here today.
As far as longer term, I'd like to see a TV tower built on Governor's Island, since it would fit in well with what would work for NYC and be in a central yet relatively unpopulated area and could even serve as a research and testing facility for future technologies, while strengthening the communications structure of the NYC region.
Remember that people in the outlying far reaches of upstate NY and similar rely on transmissions from towers like that for their TV reception too, including the cable tv headends that pick up the stations for distribution to their local customers.
I live in the extreme SW area of the Woodside ZIP code (11377) area. I can get the following channels (4 *'s is best, 0: I can't get at all)
02 **** (CBS)
04 * (NBC)
05 *** (FOX)
07 ½ (ABC)
09 ***½ (UPN)
11 ½ (WB)
13 ½ (PBS)
17 **** (KTV)
21 ¼ (PBS)
25 **** (PBS)
26 **** (Local)
31 0 (Pax)
35 **** (Local)
39 **** (LTV)
41 *** (Univision)
47 ¼ (Telemundo)
50 ** (NJN)
53 **¼ (?)
58 *¼ (NJN)
64 ***¾ (11 Duplicate)
68 ***½ (HSN)
If cable does decide to provide broadcast channels for free (which I highly recommend), they should provide a way to recieve the signals across multiple tuners. I have 3 TV's that can connect to cable, each in a different room, and each could be tuned to a different channel at any givben time.
How can cable give you broadcast channels for free? Even with lowest tier cable, which is nothing more that your local over-the-air stations, they still have to charge you. How can they pay the cost of the cable wires, headends, etc... if you don't pay at least the minimum $16 a month.
The antenna on (which tower?, North or South) the World Trade Center carries TV reception signals, which is no longer present.
The large antenna on one of those towers weren't there for nothing. It carried a large network of signals, including TV broadcasting systems, and probably why the TV wasn't coming on is because the towers aren't present, esp. the one with the antenna.
I heard that the top of the antenna is sticking out of the rubble, which could possibly mean it is still intact. I imagine it will be saved, maybe it should be used as part of a monument.
Here in Rockland County I seem to be getting everything on my OLDER television with standard rabbit ears fairly well. Byt my newer one with the outdoor antenna is getting poor reception except for channel 2 (CBS). I absolutely do not want to have to get cable TV, but I'll have to see how things go in the next week or two.
I hear, but can't confirm, that there is a "broadcast TV" package that some cable outfits offer for $14.95 a month. It is NOT basic cable. If that's all you need, it might be worth a look.
--Mark
The service is called "Broadcast Basic" and includes most of the TV's and of course SHOPPING ... woohoo! :)
This seems to agree with what I wrote in a post further up in this thread about the design parameters of older and newer television sets and how newer ones don't seem to be designed with tuning in a signal coming off of an antenna in mind given that in this day and age most people connect their TVs to a high quality source such as a cable TV cable, external cable box or anything else on the VCR inputs. As a result people rarely use their televisions to tune in, amplify and display a much weaker signal recieved directly from a passive antenna, so the ability to tune an off air broadcast signal is no longer a priority design parameter for televison makers unlike in the time older TVs were designed and made when that was pretty much the only way to recieve TV station and a good tuner was therefore a critical design requirement.
-Robert King
1.When will the Bowery & Canal st platforms be abandoned?
2.Is there a need for a subway line on the East side of Manhatthan(besides the Second Avenue line)?
3.Which will be more convienent for Bronx residents?
A-A new 3 avenue line?
B-A line connecting Co-op city with Manhatthan?
4.Is the E platform damaged at Chambers street?
5.Is the N and R tunnel damaged?
6.Is it possible to build a connecting track between track 1 & 2 at City Hall lower level ?
7.Because of the rescue/recovery/cleanup effort will the re-opening of the North tracks on th bridge be pushed back a year or two(or god forbid 10)?
I simply love these Q&A posts!
1.When will the Bowery & Canal st platforms be abandoned?
I don't know. When they start construction, ask again.
2.Is there a need for a subway line on the East side of Manhatthan(besides the Second Avenue line)?
Umm, until they actually build another east side line, let's not talk about possible further lines.
3.Which will be more convienent for Bronx residents?
Choice B. Anything that connects with manhattan is good.
4.Is the E platform damaged at Chambers street?
News reoprts have stated that the glass doors leading from the basement of WTC's mall are still intact. If there is damage, it's minimal.
5.Is the N and R tunnel damaged?
To an extent. But TA officials have toured it and reported that damage wasn't too bad.
6.Is it possible to build a connecting track between track 1 & 2 at City Hall lower level ?
Um, I have no idea. But I'd imagine that one already exists just north of the station.
7.Because of the rescue/recovery/cleanup effort will the re-opening of the North tracks on th bridge be pushed back a year or two(or god forbid 10)?
I think that NYCDOT has a large enough workpool to prevent that.
6.Is it possible to build a connecting track between track 1 & 2 at City Hall lower level ?
Scissors crossovers already exist... see Peter Dougherty's track maps elsewhere on this site.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
1. IMO, sometime next year, at the rate the MTA is going.
2. Not only A subway line, but TWO of them.
3. Both, which should connect with each other in Mott Haven just before entering Manhattan.
4. AFAIK, lots of dust and some debris.
5. There is damage, but not to the extent of the IRT tunnel a block to the west.
6. Tracks 1 & 2 going into City Hall are linked by a crossover switch just before they duck under tracks 3 & 4.
7. Knowing NYSDOT (the ones handling the project), there's not telling what will happen with the Manny B. rehab.
NYCDOT, not NYSDOT. (We've been through this before. They're different agencies.)
I knew they were different agencies. I just got the two mixed up over th bridge project.
1 I took an E to 71 continental (no R38s!!!)
2 Q(R68) to Rego Park(I would have Taken it to roosevelt, But it overran the stop by 3 doors, so since i was in the front car i decided that i would prefer to avoid a union square-like situation)
3 A G train (To Roosevelt)Interesting configuration- A-B-A-B-B-A(were they out of A-A units, and broke up a 4 car pair?)
4 A Q train, R32, You can see the Astoria el from the 60th st. tubes. It got to 52mph!!! a personal record
5 A 6 train, R142a on the express tracks, While I was on the local tracksI saw an R62 and An R29 leave at the same time IN THE SAME DIRECTION!!!!!!!!!!!, The train skipped 51st st, andthe voice went off right before grand central, stating 51st st. no other voices went off.
6. A 7 train- Mostly uneventful, Saw R36-9346,Or is that handle 9436?, saw them both
7. 2-local, car 6646(R142), had addracks, pictures over the digital side sign boxes, THIS CAR HAD LOCAL STOP ANNOUNCEMENTS, though the side sighs said it was express.
8. And I also saw an A to lefferts 4 R32 units and an R38 in the middle
The new Maps are now in color
BMT REDBIRD
What is the current cars running on the E,Q and M?
E- R32, R46 (R38 are supposedly there)
Qcircle- R68, R68A, R32
Qdiamond-R40,R32(guess)
M- R40/42, R32(guess)
Except for an odd R-68 or R-68A that I spotted on Thursday, the diamond-Q appears to have retained its usual R-40 fleet.
The M has some mixed R-40M/42 trains and some solid R-40 trains. No R-32's have made it to either the M or the J.
E-R46 units from R train (i imagine there are some R-32 units on that too)
Q-R-68 and R-32 (from E train. Likely, R-46 were not used because of their front signs for the "Q")
M- R-40M/S/42. R-40S units are from the N
A subtalker also reported R-32's on the J line (There might be a set or two on the M as well)
R46's can run on the (Q) it's the diamond Q that they can't run on. All cars from the R40 to the R46 have the same rollsign set. Broadway D got replaced by diamond Q only on the R40 slants that operate out of CI.
The Slants' rollsign of diamond "Q" was originally the JFK Express symbol.
Yeah, and instead of just replacing the signs they put the diamond Q right on top of the old sign, thus blocking the light and making the Diamond Q sign all but impossible to see from any distance!
By the way, are you sure it was the JFK Express symbol that they covered up? It looked like there were other yellow circles next to the diamond Q.
- Lyle Goldman
I am fairly certain, my two friends (one at Pneumatic Brake Shop, another at Overhaul at CI) informed me of this months and months ago. It is a simple sticker.
Of course, this is why the flouresent tubes cannot shine through.
There are. The Diamond Q sign is placed over Broadway D, which is right next to B'way Circle Q.
Although the R32 only has a circle Q, it did run on the express with signs set to 57 Street/7 Avenue, Brighton Beach, instead of Continental Avenue, Coney Island.
3 A G train (To Roosevelt)Interesting configuration- A-B-A-B-B-A(were they out of A-A units, and broke up a 4 car pair?)
A four car pair of R-46's cannot be broken up. That config you saw is a specific set. There is 1 A-B config of R-46's.
6206/6207 are the AB set.
<<3 A G train (To Roosevelt)Interesting configuration- A-B-A-B-B-A(were they out of A-A units, and broke up a 4
car pair?) >>
Of the 12 or 14 two car sets, all are A-B, except one which is A-A
I said that backwards. There is one A-B.
The reason the numbers don't hit out is becuase some R46's were originally in 3 car sets for the JFK-express.
1 I took an E to 71 continental (no R38s!!!)
You won't find them whenever you take a visit to the Subway. Sometimes, luck has it that I don't find any R46 E's. (because they're borrowed from the R) Same story for R38's. E's only get them from special deliveries which I'll leave the experts to explain.
5 A 6 train, R142a on the express tracks, While I was on the local tracksI saw an R62 and An R29 leave at the same time IN THE SAME DIRECTION!!!!!!!!!!!, The train skipped 51st st, andthe voice went off right before grand central, stating 51st st. no other voices went off.
Please explain this in a precise way. Did you cram in your facts by mistake?
7. 2-local, car 6646(R142), had addracks, pictures over the digital side sign boxes, THIS CAR HAD LOCAL STOP ANNOUNCEMENTS, though the side sighs said it was express.
The LCD signs won't change. This is a temporary service diversion which will last probably months or years, depending on the WTC cleanup and maintenance situation.
Those LCD signs will remain to be "2 - 7th Av. EXPRESS". It will never change to 7th Av, Local because the #2 line was initially in existence for EXP service.
7th Av. LOCAL are the #1 and #9 lines, although the service diversion allows #1 trains to run express in Manhattan because of the WTC incident.
Great trip with good experiences.
: )
Railfan Pete.
The 1 has resume being the 7Ave Local again. Also it has been extended to New Lots Ave, Bklyn. The 3 is the 7Ave Express from Lenox Term to 14St-7Ave. All of these changes took place on Wednesday, 9-19.
MNRR is going to soon release a report over which town on the New Haven Line is going to get a new station. The two choices are Orange or West Haven. Both towns have declaired their intention to fight the validity of the report should it work against them.
MNRR is going to soon release a report over which town on the New Haven Line is going to get a new station. The two choices are Orange or West Haven. Both towns have declaired their intention to fight the validity of the report should it work against them.
I cannot imagine how the choice would not be West Haven. It's much larger than Orange and is farther from New Haven than Orange is from Milford.
They could always do the "Solomon" thing if the two towns get to fisticuffs and place the station SMACK in between both of them with no parking lot. :)
I say put NO station in. The NH line already makes way too many stops and most CT residents won't take the train even if you built the station across the street from their house. Really, what purpose is a station in thaty area going to serve?
" Really, what purpose is a station in thaty area going to serve?
"
I haven't a clue, but I'll bet it will have a BIG PARKING FACILITY and will draw riders from a very wide area, especially if an express service is offered from that point.
Elias
I don't recall my CT geography. Is this a new station on the existing line, meaning south of New Haven? I assume it is because Metro-North MU's are not equipped to operate in 25,000 volt territory north of the old layup area.
I don't recall my CT geography. Is this a new station on the existing line, meaning south of New Haven? I assume it is because Metro-North MU's are not equipped to operate in 25,000 volt territory north of the old layup area.
Both of the proposed station sites are located in between Milford station and the New Haven terminal. There is a substantial gap between Milford and New Haven, I'd guess close to ten miles.
That answers Philip's objection to a new station.
I suppose some trains can run express if there is insufficient demand for all trains to stop at the new station.
Maybe this isn't the end of the world after all.
It aired twice during NBC news, at 11:15 and 11:30 PM. No references (visual or otherwise) to WTC.
If this sounds redundant, then I apologize. But for the first time, I've seen the Bombardier R-142s in the process of delivery. The set was 6551-6555, and I saw it while it was passing thorough 125th St. under the power of two work motors. This was at 10:20 PM, as I was coming back from school.
Thanks for making note of this. I too spotted the same set as I was heading into my building from work tonight, but when I got to my window, the train had just passed the homeball on Track M south of Prospect Av. I wasn't able to get numbers. Dave can take note of this on the Delivery Notes Page.
-Stef
On Tuesday I tried the new ferry service that started the previous day between South Ferry and the Brooklyn Army Terminal (58th Street and 1st Avenue). The service runs during peak hours, and does handle reverse commuters. I was on the 4:30 PM run out of South Ferry, which was covered by one of the boats taken from the Staten Island service. I remember that it was the John A. Noble, one of the newer boats that does not have auto-carrying capacity. The run was pretty well patronized - perhaps 200 people were aboard. The boat took an unusual route through Buttermilk Channel, behind Governors Island.
At the Army Terminal, there is a large, fairly modern concrete pier that provides parking. Free bus service was provided by Command lines to points in Bay Ridge. The only hitch at the Brooklyn end was that the boat had to unload through a side door, and there was a narrow gangway from a float up to the pier itself. It took a while to unload (10-15 minutes). About a dozen people were waiting to ride back to Manhattan.
Most of the people standing at the bow with me were pleased with the service and compared it favorably to taking the subway.
That is an unusual route, through Buttermilk Channel. I'm going to have to try the ferry.
None of the "new" boats are capable of carrying cars - that distinction belongs to the older Kennedy-class boats.
The Noble is usually the midnight ferry - it just plods back and forth all night long. What this Brooklyn service does accomplish, however, is taking a ferry CREW away from the Staten Island run - during rush hours we now have three boats an hour instead of 4, making each run that much more crowded, as well as throwing off the connecting schedule with the buses and SIRT.
I remember that there was a temporary ferry service in 1988 when the Williamsburg Bridge was closed; this ran from South Ferry to a point just south of the bridge in Brooklyn. I don't remember a Staten Island boat being used for this service; it seemed to be a smaller craft like New York Waterways uses. Does anybody remember where the boat and crew for this route came from?
It was the same type of boat. The smallest ones they normally use on
late nights. I rode it once and then walked back to Manhattan via the
bridge. It was very weird that no cars, no subways were running on the
bridge.
They could always run fewer trains.
Is it temporary or permanent, and what hours does it run, and how much?
Let's add this set to the active duty list as it operated in service today on the 2 Line. The Reign of the Redbirds on the 2 Line is slowly coming to an end...
-Stef
On Thursday, there was only 2-3 sets of Redbirds on the road during the midday. During the Rush hour about 4 more sets came into service. The 2 line was mostly R142s that day.
this is true
Ever since John Ashcroft made telephone calls to the MA governor and Boston mayor about terrorist attacks, Boston has been on edge. Nobody will comment specifically on what Ashcroft said, but they will only say that no specific threats have been made. There are rumoprs that a bartender heard some drunken arabs in boston (before 9/11) saying that Boston was going to be a bloody mess come 9/22. Again, nothing is confirmed, and all officials are urging people to have a normal weekend and enjoy activities. But some activites, like the annual college fest at the Hynes Convention Center, have already been postponed. I may even be having some students from BU over at my place (my college is on the south shore) tomorrow, because they want to get away from Boston.
I hope that all these rumors are simply a hoax, but just in case, I would ask all Boston subtalkers to be EXTREMELY careful when in the city tomorrow, especially around skyscrapers, landmarks, and the subway. Save the railfanning for another day please; I say this only for my concern of everyone's safety. :-) -Nick
Just looked at boston.com. Ashcroft's warning was based on a faulty FBI translation of an Arabic document! As Emily Letella used to say on Saturday Night Live, "Never mind!"
Still, even a sneeze nowadays would make people jump.
After President Kennedy was assassinated in 1963 the TV stations began running bulletins whenever anything was amiss nationally. People began to dread watching a TV show and having it interrupted by one of thoese crytic "BULLETIN" screens. (I don't recall if the word Bulletin was used, but it was that or something similarly abrupt).
Anyway, one time they interrupted all the TV shows with a BULLETIN that turned out to be an announcement that Lyndon Johnson had a cold. That so angered people that afterwards they toned down the instant announcements a lot.
I thought the Sept. 22 date was derived from airline tickets found on some of those arrested in San Antonio, for that date. Tickets were to the west coast, right?
I hope that all these rumors are simply a hoax, but just in case, I would ask all Boston subtalkers to be EXTREMELY careful when in the city tomorrow, especially around skyscrapers, landmarks, and the subway. Save the railfanning for another day please; I say this only for my concern of everyone's safety. :-) -Nick
If New York were a target, we would view this a different way. Just because Boston may be hundreds of miles away from here, doesn't mean we can lightly reassure or warn Boston residents of this issue.
I really hope it's NOT real.
It was stupid of Ashcroft to do that, based on unverified, preliminary information. It was even more stupid of elected officials to pass along such unverified, preliminary information.
Both acts play right into the hands of terrorists, who want to "control" people's lives.
I had the pleasure of being at the Seashore Trolley Museum today, and dispatching/operating during what turned out to be beautiful end-of-summer day. NYC's Third Avenue Railway System #631 played a prominent role :-)
I was at Seashore on Saturday as well; in fact, I operated one of the trips on #631. The significance of being on a NYC car didn't hit me until I was giving my spiel at Talbot Park. I think that's the first time I ever shed a tear while giving a tour.
Traffic on Saturday morning wasn't any heavier than ususal, so I suspect those who chose to leave town for the weekend either left the night before or did not choose Maine as their destination.
On this date, the WTC station of the PATH was open to the public. W C Rapelye (now a bus driver at MQ) and myself (now an USAF employee in Washington) were the first two paying passengers on enter the station and left on the first train from WTC. Many other railfans were on the first passnger carrying train to enter WTC just as we left WTC.
I have in my basement here in Virginia a stack of material, which some have already been offered to Subtalkers. They are a brochure "Building Better Transit For Tomorrow... PATH's Wprld Trade Center Terminal", PATH Service Guide for July 6, 1971. Now I found info on WTC "PATH World Trade Center Terminal opens July 6" and "Special Holiday Weekend PATH Service Guide".
I'm offering these item to subtalkers anywhere. All I ask is for a dollar for postage and handling. Some of you already have a set, but the last two items were not part of my first offering. I ask that you not to profit from the recent lost on Sept 11 2001 by selling these items, and hold on to these material to pass on the the next generation of subtalker. I may run out of the last two item if I get too many requests so please accept that.
My address for mailing is
Philip Hom
65 Dorothy Lane
Stafford, VA 22554-1598
These four items will be mail to you on the next day. Please I want all to have it, only one request per address.
Phil Hom
ERA 3620
Has there been some kind of change on SubTalk regarding the posting software parsing links?
I've had some trouble using A HREF to post, and the message
http://subtalk.nycsubway.org/cgi-bin/subtalk.cgi?read=267884
and others don't seem to be posting right.
OTOH, when I posted a text link, it parsed into a clickable link.
Is this a change, or am I doing something wrong?
testing
still seems to work, maybe you're doing it wrong
to make a link,use [a href="http://www.thewebsite.com/file.html"]The text on top of the link[/a], but replace the square brackets with the proper ones (the angle brackets: <>)
Has there been some kind of change on SubTalk regarding the posting software parsing links?
There hasn't been any change since I first came here months ago.
Perhaps you're forgetting to close the link or not putting in the CLOSING QUOTATION MARKS at the end of your link.
(This happened to me several times. I forgot the closing quote marks and the whole thing came out weird in the Preview message. I added the marks and voila! a perfect link!)
Be sure to close and start the "a href" HTML link properly.
To close: "/a" Be sure to replace the quote marks with the appropriate brackets.
Railfan Pete.
One Liberty Stands Proud
If One Liberty is stable, it increases the likelihood that the N/R tracks along Church Street will be able to reopen soon, if the tunnel is also found to be structurally sound.
(If One Liberty is stable, it increases the likelihood that the N/R tracks along Church Street will be able to reopen soon, if the tunnel is also found to be structurally sound.)
If the surrounding buildings can be fixed quickly, it would certainly be a plus for Lower Manhattan. For my wife and I, the potenial loss of Battery Park City and the buildings across Church was worse than the Trade Center -- as if all of Downtown was destroyed. We even worried that One Liberty would fall east and know over her building, and some others.
Amazing. I thought it was gone.
Outstanding!
Interesting that the piece on the Times website showed it in gray (destroyed) rather than red or orange (damaged)!
I have never been able to find pictures of What the Comet V and the BiLevel Rail cars MIGHT look like. Well on NJT webpage I found them. I dont know if anyone else has seen this but if you havent here u go.
NEW NJ TRANSIT ROLLING STOCK
Nice! And are the Comet V would be running on the NEC Line? And also would the Comet2's would be on the NEC Line as well?
Nice! And are the Comet V would be running on the NEC Line? And also would the Comet2's would be on the NEC Line as well?
I wish they sure did! But remember, there are other rail lines across NJ which NJ TRANSIT has to accomodate. Remember that infamous phrase "ridership growth" and "passenger acceptance"?
The new Rolling Stock of NJT's fleet will expand its car roster in anticipation of ridership growth.
I also read that the Alp-46 locomotives are being tested on the TEST TRACK in Pueblo, Colorado and on the NEC. I wish I can see one real soon.
As every NJT rider may know, the NEC is inundated with ARROW III self-propelled cars (EMU's), with the weekday spanning schedule time for several Comet IV trainsets as well.
By the way, what is the function of "NEWARK EXPRESS"? There are two of them on the NEC, one during AM rush, and one during PM rush. These two trains are 100% Comet cars. They seldom use DIESELS for the s/b trains, but some come as 6 Comet IV cars with an ALP-44 loco. (which I like)
Most of these trains are pulled or pushed with an ALP-44 locomotive.
There are many other trains which are EMU's and run the express route between Metropark and Newark. Then what is "NEWARK EXPRESS"?
Answers and responses will be greatly appreciated.
Railfan Pete.
Newark Express are designated as such because they are the only NEC trains terminating in Newark instead of NYC. Most of the time until late 1998 (last time I saw them in action, now I commute outside normal rush), they were diesel push-pull 6 to 8 car trains.
I think the second bilevel car looks the best. I wish they had some computer designed inside the car pics.
IDK - The third one looks funky as hell and the first one is cool with the large top-to-botton stripes.
And the Comet V - how retro is that!
The third one is awful. I like the first two but between the two of them, I can't decide which is better. I am leaning slightly towards the first one because that stripe is pretty nifty looking.
I dont't like any of them. I think they should get 200 ConnDOT-style EMU's with TAP converters.
ConnDOT's EMU's as well as all other Metro-North and LIRR EMUs can only platform at high-level stations. If NJT ordered versions of the M6, they would have to keep them confined to the NEC, where except for the Trenton-bound only Jersey Avenue station, all stations have high platforms.
Thank you. Sad part is the pic that shows the new ALP-46 diesel has the Twin Towers in the background.
I'd sure trade one for the other.
Be careful with this site. It causes my Netscape 4.5 to crash.
("You have performed an illegal operation, protection excpetion, etc. ")
Did you notice one of the locomotive illustrations has the WTC in the background?
Yup, I did. What a coincidence...
--Cleanairbus
Why don't the Comet 5 cars have the electronic destination signs?
- Lyle Goldman
They will.
When?
Hi all,
Lets try to steer the board back on topic.. enough time has passed since the tragedy and this is not the place to be posting quotes from whatever religious mailing lists you might be subscribing to. Lets try to remember we have people of different faiths here and I think we'd all appreciate a little less religious opinion. There are other places for that.
-Dave
It'll be hard to discuss a religious war being waged on us without discussing the religion behind the war but whatever you say goes.
Alan Glick
The point is that almost all of the "war" talk is not appropriate for this forum.
This forum (and the home website) are named:
'SubTALK',
'www.nycsubway.org',
and
'New York City Subway Resources'.
Not 1 single mention of Religion...AMEN to that!!
Thanks Dave...
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Thank you very much Dave P. I totally agree. I see the posts here about "war" talk and it just gets me more upset. If I want to see "war" I'll watch the news. So let's get back to the subways and buses-PLEASE!
Thank you.
#951 Amtrak AEM-7
The True Red White and Blue!
That means you will be hearing me droning on about my beautiful Sea Beach until the cows come home. You ready for that?
Goombah! Howdy, guy! You don't want to go there ... from the rumors floating around, the Sea Beach is about to be cut to a shuttle for a while and rumor has it Heypaul is having a greyhound bus retrofitted with an R9 controller and brakestand and will be running it up and down the 10 stops between Stillwell and 59th selling hot dogs from the gas grill in the cab to anyone on the platform looking for a train.
For now, the mess downtown has pretty much killed off the Sea Beach.
Maybe they will turn the Sea beach into a Light Rail system to connect to the So Brooklyn Trolley Museaum
Heh. You're going to make Fred bust a blood vessel with that one. :)
Or perhaps they'll use the Sea Beach ROW to resurrect the Boynton Bicycle Railroad :)
I hope you bums are having a blast panning the Sea Beach. I'm getting a little sore about it. Bad anough that I know my train is now the M and the route has changed, but to hear some of you morons calling for a bicycle route or a trolley route on it gets my Italian up. The Sea Beach is a great line because it doesn't bust up neighborhoods like those elevated trains do. It is outdoors much of the time in Brooklyn an still below stree surface. For a person with a little imagination it offers some nice scenery, and those little tunnels are a thrill as the train goes through it. So save your corny jokes for your wives and mistresses. I'm sure they'll tell you how much they appreciate your humorless jokes when they drop you bums like a hot potato.
How about:
A Express to 207th St. 125th St. will be the next stop. Watch the doors and enjoy the dash.
R-10s on the A
Or:
Coney Island Express, Stillwell Ave. will be the next stop. Nonstop to Stillwell Ave, nonstop to Stillwell Ave.
Triplexes on the Sea Beach
I agree also. Maybe a bit of deleting threads not dealing with transit topics will get the message across.
With all due respect, a few days ago someone posted the topic WHAT SHOULD I DO? Some guy wanted to know what he should do over someone calling him a bitch ass, or some stupid street slang term. The topic should have been deleted the second it was posted.
"enough time has passed since the tragedy........". ??????????????
Glad you feel that way.
Like I said before, I don't get paid to babysit this board 24/7 so you have to understand sometimes stuff gets past. If you don't think I'm fair, you can always start up your own web board.
What? You mean you have the temerity to operate a Website without being equipped with diapers and baby wipes? It's a wonder your ISP hasn't taken your site down!
:0)
Just have to do what I did when I bartended: If you dicussed politics or relegion I would ask you to stop if you didn't I asked you to leave and cut you off. THERE ARE NO WINNERS IN THESE CONVERSATIONS!!!!!
Lets try to steer the board back on topic..
Steer? I'm afraid that belongs on BusTalk.
http://www.bostonherald.com/news/national/amtk09222001.htm
http://www.bostonherald.com/news/local_regional/mbta09222001.htm
As I found out yesterday when purchasing tickets for Thanksgiving, the price of Acela Express has gone down slightly, while Acela Regional price went up a bit. For Example, one way on the regional between Boston and New haven, CT is $52 (I'm not sure exactly how much it was before...but its at least by a few $$), while AE costs $84 for the same trip (down from $87). -Nick
Interesting discovery you made, Nick!
The BOS-NYP round-trip fare on AE has decreased from $240 to $232.
For those of you that work for large corporations, AMTRAK will negotiate corporate fares based upon volume projections. My organization has negotiated 30% off.
"For those of you that work for large corporations, AMTRAK will negotiate corporate fares based upon volume projections. My organization has negotiated 30% off."
Wow, good deal, Todd!! Was this MIT or WCBS that negotiated this? -Nick
MIT through its approved travel agencies.
As you may imagine, many people are paranoid about flying right now. Therefore, Amtrak is selling out for Thanksgiving faster than usual. For instance, I had to take a later train on the Tuesday before Thanksgiving because the one that I wanted was already sold out. So, for anyone planning to travel by rail, I strongly suggest you buy your tickets right away. My guess is that the Boston-DC and maybe even a few Boston-NYC passengers are buying the tickets. Not only from fears, but because air shuttle services have been crippled lately as well. -Nick
I don't know if this has already been raised, but I couldn't find it.
With the damage to the 1-9 lines as it is, and the length of time it will take to rebuild, would it not be possible to reinstate the South Ferry - Bowling Green Shuttle?!? The platforms and tracks still exist, the biggest challenge would be to modify cars for the operation, although one could assume that they could use the South Ferry outer loop and use a 3 or 4-pack of mid-age IRT cars (R-68s?!?)
Any input?!?
Er . . . I don’t know whether or not that could or would be possible, given the close proximity from the Bowling Green station to the connection to the tracks to the South Ferry loop. . . . Moreover, I don’t know if the South Ferry terminus itself and the tracks thereto sustained some damage as a result of these events.
Well, according to the trackage maps on this site, the routing is possible. As to the potential damage in the area, I certainly have no real idea, but I thought it would be a nice idea
South Ferry Track Map - CLICK HERE
According to that map, #5 trains can stop at Bowling Green, utilize the South Ferry outer loop (1)(9) and return back to Bowling Green and head north. How much trouble would it be to make this maneuver ?
Bill "Newkirk"
As was said elsewhere, the #5s are needed in BROOKLYN!
As for the shuttle, Why Bother, we are only talking two short blocks, less than a full length train. Save the equipment, the manpower and the costs, you can walk to Bowling Green faster than you can change trains an extra time.
Elias
...we are only talking two short blocks, less than a full length train.
It's longer than two short blocks and longer than a full length train. It's not a pleasant walk in winter with a cold wind blowing in off the harbor into one's face. Not everybody taking the ferry works in the Financial District. They need direct subway service to midtown.
The IRT was built when people were expected to walk longer distances than today. They realized the necessity for having both the Bowling Green and South Ferry stations.
While we're in a different situation now than we were before Sept. 11, remember, by Dec. 15, there are going to be a lot of voters getting off the Staten Island Ferry in the morning not too happy about walking three blocks in the snow and with the temperatures in the low teens, or walking back to the ferry in the afternoon into the teeth of a wind blowing off the Upper New York Bay.
Many of them may not even know there ever was a South Ferry shuttle, but odds are a lot of them know about the No. 5 train looping around the station because it's pretty hard to ignore that screetching on the inner track. And they will be asking why the No. 5 can't stop at South Ferry.
Given that Staten Island is one of the few places in NYC that can be expected to support Pataki over Cuomo or McCall 13 1/2 months from now and that Pataki controls the MTA board, some sort of mid-day No. 5 service to SF and/or split rush hour service could happen if there are enough complaints about the lack or service and/or if the narrow stairs and platforms at the (hopefully) re-opened N/R at Whitehall is too crowded to handle the rush hour loads.
It seems that the biggest obstacle to serving South Ferry from the East Side is a lack of routes. The subway between City Hall Loop and Bowling Green can handle two routes, (4 & 5) and in rush hour both are needed in Brooklyn. As I understand it the 'Shuttle' track at Bowling Green is out of service for some construction. The only possible service to SF is therefore the 5 when it isn't going to Brooklyn, or an extension of the 6 to SF when the 5 isn't running south of 181st. That leaves the most important time - Rush Hours, without a way to provide service. Then, even the shuttle would be a poor substitute for real service. Hopefully the West Side line will be up and running sooner than expected, it's the best way to serve SF.
This may have been posted before but why not have a 4 car train run from the Bowling Green shuttle platform to the South Ferry Outer loop then reverse back to the Bowling Green shuttle platform. Would require perhaps two TO's and 1 conductor for rapid reversing or one TO if rapid reversing was not required. Would that not work without affecting the other lines?
Have you ever been to Bowling Green? Last time I was there you couldn't fit 4 cars onto the shuttle platform, only 2. And you are talking about lots of labor costs: 3 (wo)men on a 4 car train. Staff for at least 2 shifts at least + another body to give lunch. Get real!
Well excuse me for living! So much for friendly subtalk.
I wasn't trying to be hostile. But there has to be a balance of what would make railfans happy vs. productivity and monetary cost issues for the TA to provide a given service. Bowling Green and South Ferry are withing walking distance of each other. When that service was running, how many people rode it only because the train was just arriving or already there? How many people didn't want to bother going up and down the stairs for a 2 minute ride? How many people walked because they just missed the train, or it was a nice day outside, or since it was a very noisy curve filled slow speed ride they didn't want to come off the train with a headache! I'm sure the line was abandoned for low ridership. And in the year 2001, the TA is more conscious of budgets today more now than ever.
If proximity is the issue, why do we have a Times Square Shuttle? Why do people walk up and down long walkways and up and down stairs to go three or four cross-town blocks?
I personally agree with the notion of restarting the BG-SF shuttle. I've made the walk from Bowling Green to SF many times and its not as close as you think. If the subway is still about speed and convenience, and I think it is, the shuttle would be a welcome addition to the system.
If there was a way to quickly open the doors of the first two cars on Brooklyn-bound trains on the side of the shuttle platform. Maybe have a CR board at Wall Street, open and close the doors, change sides at Borough Hall, take a train back to Wall and cross over there for another trip. Of course, anything non-R142(A) would be able to do this.
What? A train that leaves Bowling Green southbound and goes to South Ferry has no choice - it's next stop MUST be Bowling Green northbound (assuming the tunnel between South Ferry and Chambers St remains closed).
I was suggesting a way that Brooklyn-bound trains could open the doors on both sides (at least for the first 2 cars) for an easier connection to any South Ferry Shuttle that may operate out of the shuttle track.
If proximity is the issue, why do we have a Times Square Shuttle? Why do people walk up and down long walkways and up and down stairs to go three or four cross-town blocks?
For one, the distance from Bowling Green to South Ferry is about a fifth of a mile, and it's more than half a mile from Grand Central to Times Square. Add to that the fact that there are more streets to cross between Grand Central and Times Square, and the pedestrian volumes on 42 St considerably slow the walk, and you'll see two shuttles are totally different animals.
In the unlikely event that the shuttle is resurrected, the line could be run on OPTO, reducing the crew from 3 to 1, or just 2 T/O's like on the GCS.
People want a direct train. Who wants to transfer that many times?
One thing is for sure: many State Islanders will demand it when it gets cold.
We'll see if they are listened to. Pataki will be up next year, though he looks real strong right now.
It's longer than two short blocks and longer than a full length train. It's not a pleasant walk in winter with a cold wind blowing in off the harbor into one's face. Not everybody taking the ferry works in the Financial District. They need direct subway service to midtown.
What about a covered aboveground walkway?
Stations on the IRT tend to be spaced very closely. The IND lengthened station spacing a good deal.
Although South Ferry was initially built as part of the East Side line, once it was connected to the West Side line its primary service came from there. South Ferry on the East Side express is akin to City Hall on the East Side local.
Should trains stop at South Ferry? Sure, when 5 trains pass through the station anyway, and perhaps the 6 could be extended to South Ferry overnight. But rush hours any additional service to South Ferry would cause delays up and down the entire line, unless it runs from the shuttle platform, in which case it would be faster and easier to walk.
I like the idea of an enclosed walkway. The walk is shorter than many existing (and popular) transfers. Should the TA run two-car shuttles between 42/8 and 42/7? Do you really think passengers would prefer to wait and ride than to just walk and get it over with?
The walk is shorter than many existing (and popular) transfers. Should the TA run two-car shuttles between 42/8 and 42/7?
The walking distance between South Ferry and Bowling Green is 0.32 miles. The walking distance between avenue blocks is 0.17 mi.
Shuttle bus! Shuttle bus!
Though it would be nice to see some Gibbs cars restored for shuttle duty. We can dream, can't we?
Let's see, assume half the 5,500 passengers of a Barberi class SI ferry want to go uptown. At 50 passengers per bus that's how many buses? The super ferries overwhelmed the subway facilities in the area; what do you think they would do to a shuttle bus?
Yes, those Gibbs cars would sure come in mighty handy. You'd just open their center doors and leave their "brutal" manual end doors closed.
Shoreline's 3662 still has its center doors while Seashore's 3352 does not.
Never knew there were disabled doors at Seashore ... Jim Morrison would not approve. :)
Then again, it's not a big deal to flip the levers and lock down doors in any piece of equipment in reality for service to the inner loop. Wasn't exactly big magic - many of my favorite cars often had only a leaf or two that moved in revenue service on the entire car. Heh.
Seashore's 3352 had its center doors and fish belly sills removed some years ago. The intention was to restore it to its 1904 appearance. There's a good chance it ran on Day One if it had been delivered by then.
Source? That certainly doesn't mesh with my intuition, and the newly posted TA neighborhood maps appear to disagree by a factor of two or so (although it's hard to tell precisely because the maps aren't to the same scale).
If you're right, I stand corrected.
Source?
DeLorme's TopoUSA version 2.0.
A while back you were the person who discovered that Gracie Mansion was the only residence not withing 3/4 mile's walking distance of an existing Lexington Avenue subway station. Surely, you must have some source like DeLorme's to check my measurement.
"As was said elsewhere, the #5s are needed in BROOKLYN!"
Okay, leave the #5 alone.
How about sending #6s down to SF or better yet, alternate #6s there.
#6 Pelham Bay to South Ferry
#6 177th-Parkchester to Brooklyn Bridge
Would that work ?
Those two short blocks can seem like 2 miles in rain, much like the driving rain when I was there on Thursday. I opted for an M15 bus instead.
Bill "Newkirk"
Again: We're dealing with a two-track line between south of Brooklyn Bridge and south of Borough Hall. Whether South Ferry trains are called #5, #6, or #1,000,000 doesn't matter. There's no room for them (at least, not in any meaningful numbers) without taking service away from Brooklyn.
David
There's no room for them (at least, not in any meaningful numbers) without taking service away from Brooklyn.
They are currently running 27 tph on the Lex express. The line has capacity for many more trains. They could certainly add more short runs between 149th and Bowling Green (extended to South Ferry) to the 2 that are already used.
They could add 5 such trains and still be withing the service levels that were operated in the 1949-1954 period. This would bring South Ferry service to 7 tph or approximately 2 trains for each ferry arrival/departure.
And Mr. Bauman just plugged hole #2 I left JUST FOR HIM.
Once again: 40 trains per hour is what the signal system was designed for -- years ago, under a different set of operating assumptions (and 40 trains per hour was NEVER, EVER, EVER!!!!!! obtained). Since its installation, modification upon modification has been made. Those modifications are not going away, at least not any time soon. 40 trains per hour is a pipe dream. 30 is a possibility with tighter operation. 30, with no loss of service to Brooklyn, means 3 -- THREE -- trains an hour turning via the South Ferry Loop. Does that sound like it's worth doing?
David
Please re-read my post.
There are ALREADY 2 trains that run SHORT to Bowling Green during the morning rush hour. I said add 5 more trains short trains to the total of 27 tph on the Lex for a total of 32 tph. The TA has demonstrated that this figure can be operated. The 5 additional short trains, combined with the existing 2 short trains brings the total to 7 trains. The SI ferry fleet runs 4 boats during the morning rush hour on a 12-15 minute headway. Add one additional Austen Class boat for the Bklyn Ferry. The 7 tph are not a bad fit.
Once again: 40 trains per hour is what the signal system was designed for -- years ago, under a different set of operating assumptions (and 40 trains per hour was NEVER, EVER, EVER!!!!!! obtained).
I specifically chose the 32 tph limit because there is written evidence by the TA that it operated 32 10-car trains on the Lex express. If you wish to revive the question of what the maximum service level that can be operated, you should do your research. Moscow currently operates 43 tph during rush hours with the same type of block system used in New York. The NYCBOT operated 42 tph on the 3rd Ave El in the reverse direction. You should consult the inner jacket of their 1949 report for confirmation.
There is also documentation for even higher service levels in the past. The Brooklyn Bridge Railway AVERAGED 40 tph over a 24 hour period, according to contemporary journals.
Since its installation, modification upon modification has been made. Those modifications are not going away, at least not any time soon.
These modifications have not changed the capacity, just the running time. This means that the TA needs more trainsets to operate at the same service level as in the past.
40 trains per hour is a pipe dream. 30 is a possibility with tighter operation.
I'm requesting only 32 tph, so we're fairly close. The number of trains that can be operated is usually determined by the terminal facilities. There are currently 3 terminals at each end: 238th, Dyre and Woodlawn on the north and Utica, Flatbush and New Lots on the south. The southern terminals are shared by the West Side lines. I'm proposing to add a 4th terminal at each end: 149th on the north and South Ferry on the south. This would raise the terminal capacity by 15 tph.
I did read the post - every word - and I'm pretty sure I got the drift.
I accept that there is written documentation that 32 trains per hour were operated on the Lexington Avenue Line at some point in its history. However, if I'm not mistaken, that point was in 1949 -- before the current signal system was installed (1960s), before key-by rules were changed (1970s), before the propulsion systems of the subway cars were emasculated (1990s), and before a rash of timers and wheel detectors were installed (also 1990s). Mr. Bauman's proposed five additional short-turns would, in some measure (perhaps entirely), have to be taken from Brooklyn-bound service. In the morning, that's not so bad, since service TO Brooklyn in the morning should still be more than sufficient -- it would no doubt mean additional train requirements, since those trains that now go to Brooklyn and turn around would no longer be able to, but "Redbird" retirements could be manipulated to provide the extra equipment, at least for a while.
As far as Moscow's system attaining 40 trains per hour with basically the same signal system, we've been through that before. It takes a mentality on the part of all concerned -- passengers included -- that does not exist here today and is not likely to exist here in the future, especially the near future. Moreover, how many New YOrk-style modifications have been made to Moscow's signal system over the years? My guess is: few, if any.
As to whether the signal modifications in New York have reduced the capacity of the lines, I guess Mr. Bauman and I are going to have to agree to disagree. If he's right, then yes, with tighter operation (an iffy proposition in and of itself), a South Ferry service could be operated at a decent headway without hurting Brooklyn riders. His proposed 149th Street (#4?) northbound terminus would reduce car requirements, making additional service easier to accomplish. However, if I'm right, and I still think I am (anyone with EVIDENCE to the contrary -- using the signal system AS IT IS NOW to illustrate the point), then capacity of the line isn't much greater than what is being operated now, and any termination of Lexington Avenue trains at South Ferry at a decent headway would cause intolerable overcrowding in Brooklyn.
David
Let's not forget, when talking about Moscow, that they have no merging routes.
Arti
Let's not forget, when talking about Moscow, that they have no merging routes.
That does not alter capacity, just requires that schedules be maintained. Even a full grade crossing, like Lenox & 138th or Bway-Myrtle should not decrease capacity.
OTOH, the Third Ave El had 3 services on the uptown side and 2 services on the downtown side and managed 42 tph. They ran 7 locals out of 129th St, 25 local-expresses out of Bronx Park and 10 thru expresses out of 241st St. There was a full grade crossing at Bronx Park with 35 tph operation. They ran 21 tph each to City Hall and South Ferry. The return was 42 tph.
[That does not alter capacity, just requires that schedules be maintained. ]
And knowing of NYC subways, how would you propose that could be achieved?
Arti
And knowing of NYC subways, how would you propose that could be achieved?
Considering that the NYCBOT was able to manage 42 tph on the Third Ave El, I'd look at their operational plans rather than try to deny such service levels ever existed.
The Moscow technique involves making micro adjustments to dwell time at each station. The apparatus is decidedly low tech. Then again, if it works, it's not sophisticated. :-)
That was when people would WAIT for a train and not hold a train to wait for them. Also people would let there fellow passengers off before trying to board and a host of other "things" along the line of what I was taught as MANNERS!!!!
It's a question of running a sufficient number of trains to handle the existing passengers in comfort.
OTOH, the Third Ave El had 3 services on the uptown side and 2 services on the downtown side and managed 42 tph. They ran 7 locals out of 129th St, 25 local-expresses out of Bronx Park and 10 thru expresses out of 241st St. There was a full grade crossing at Bronx Park with 35 tph operation. They ran 21 tph each to City Hall and South Ferry. The return was 42 tph.
I know ... let's conduct a seance and bring back some of the Third Avenue El's dispatchers to help out today!
I'm sure there are written records that sufficiently document the operation at that time.
I remember riding the 3rd Ave El in Manhattan in the early 1950's and, as I recall, the only signals were on the the express track (reversible). The local tracks were only "line of sight" operation, so the locals could follow one another closely. This wasn't as dangerous as it sounds (unless the weather was foggy) since the route was straight over nearly its entire length and the stations were close together, so the motormen could see the train ahead of them and also see if the next station was clear.
I agree with you there should be some service between South Ferry and Bowling Green, especially when the weather gets colder. It might be possible to run a 4 car shuttle, with a T/O at each end during peak hours. Of couse only the 2 north cars could platform at Bowling Green, but exiting passengers would have to walk up (at most) only 1 or 2 car lengths. All 4 cars would platform at South Ferry (outer track). They should be able to run a round trip every 6 minutes.
I doubt if you could run a 4-car shuttle. AFAIK the Bowling Green shuttle platform is very short and can accommodate only a 2-car train. Since South Ferry is currently closed, a shuttle train could switch to the outer loop, thus eliminating the need for car modification, but would have to wrong rail back to Bowling Green.
As far as Moscow's system attaining 40 trains per hour with basically the same signal system, we've been through that before. It takes a mentality on the part of all concerned -- passengers included -- that does not exist here today and is not likely to exist here in the future, especially the near future. Moreover, how many New YOrk-style modifications have been made to Moscow's signal system over the years? My guess is: few, if any.
What you're getting at, I presume, is that Moscow accepts a higher risk of accidents with the narrower headways. Is that the way it actually works out? Does Moscow have a higher rate of collisions?
Actually, I was referring mostly to a "do it -- or else" mindset that was in place under totalitarianism and might still be in place today. But to stray into a discussion of this would be to go off-topic, so I'd like to let it rest here. As to the second part of my statement, "Arti," in another thread under this topic, mentions that Moscow's system doesn't have merges and diverges the way ours does, so that more or less takes care of the wheel detector issue (one of the more recent signal system modifications made here).
David
Even with running the 6 Express and maybe having the 4 and 5 run skip stop?
While skip-stop increases operating speeds to somewhere between all-local and express speeds, and allows for more efficient use of equipment than all-local, it doesn't increase a line's capacity. Thirty trains is still thirty trains (or 27 is still 27, or 40 is still 40...whatever) no matter how fast they're going.
David
The TPH is based on trains stoping at their statoins. the MAX TPH is 60 minutes divided by the longest time it takes for any signal on the line once gone to red to come back to yellow or green when the trains are operating at the fastest possible speed.
Several other factors influence maximum theoretical capacity. Among these are: acceleration rate; train length; station dwell time; signal latency; operator reaction time and minimum allowable distance between trains. By and large this figure comes up to around 43 tph for NYC. Better emergency brakes and acceleration (bringing the system back to the Bluebird standards of 60 years ago) would bring this figure up to around 47 tph.
Better emergency brakes? Emergency brake applications bring the train to a complete stop and then have a delay of about 23 sceonds before the train is capable of moving again. How does this help to INCREASE tph?
There is a minimum distance that must be maintained between trains. This smaller this distance the greater the tph. This distance is determined by the maximum stopping distance for the train. This depends on the train's current operating speed and braking system's deceleration rate. This distance varies inversely with the deceleration rate and is proportional to the square of the velocity. The emergency NYCT deceleration rate is 3.0 mph/sec, which is low by current industry standards. The emergency deceleration rate for the Bluebirds of 60 years ago was 7.0 mph/sec.
The emergency braking rate does determine fast a train can approach an interlocking, a bumper and similar stop situations. For example, it would permit a downtown A train to enter Canal St at normal speed, while a C was merging into the express track.
Is the emergency braking rate the only determinant for tph. Of course not. The strictest criterion is time spent in stations, including acceleration, deceleration and dwell times. Here again, the performance for the current fleet is significantly worse than the Bluebirds from 60 years ago.
Again, the purpose of more effective emergency brakes is not that they would be used to permit higher service levels but that they would provide additional safety for high density high speed operation. I trust this makes this point clearer.
I'm assuming that the trains are making no stops.
I'm assuming that the trains are making no stops.
If one is in the passenger carrying business, I'd venture to say that it is a good idea to design for stops. The stops are incorporated into acceleration, deceleration and dwell time factors that I mentioned.
My question was how the tph could be increased if the 4/5 went skip stop in that section and the 6 just ran express from Brooklyn Bridge.
No, tph cannot be increased in that manner. Further, since the trains will be going through stations in that area, it will require them to slow to 15mph. Finally, you have the problem of switching the 6 onto the express tracks, which will cause unnesecary delays.
I thought someone already debunked the 15mph issue. Trains do not HAVE to slow down.
I'm the one who brought up the 15MPH issue. Steve Bauman's attempting to debunk it, and I'm attempting to de-debunk it. There are places where the signal system will allow operation through a station at up to 35 MPH, but to my knowledge none of them are on the Lex (though Pelham, being a pretty new installation, should allow for it).
David
If I wasn't stopping at a station AND there was no train immediately ahead of me, there are loads of stations where I could bypass doing well in excess of 15mph (some would let me do even better than 35mph). However, it is Transit's RULES that say i must slow to 15mph as the first car leaves a bypassed station.
Unless there's a timer the signal system can function at damned near any speed. BIE protection is another matter, but I generally think that the station block length is comparable to mainline block length.
... I generally think that the station block length is
comparable to mainline block length.
Block lengths vary with respect to stations. The block length leaving a station is usually around 1000 feet. The block length approaching a station is usually 100 to 200 feet. Most busy used stations have one or two blocks within the station. This is designed to maximize capacity (tph).
If you are de-debunking it, does that make you a re-bunker?
I must have missed this part of the thread. How does the
signal system prevent exceeding 15MPH when taking a skip?
I'm pretty sure of my information, but I'll have it checked anyway.
David
>>>>>>>>I must have missed this part of the thread. How does the
signal system prevent exceeding 15MPH when taking a skip?
It doesn't. At most stations, you could fly through LIRR style, but it would defeat the safety purpose of the signal system.
I checked today with my source (who is known to Jeff H. and is reliable). He confirmed that because of block length and control line issues, trains in most areas of the NYC Transit system have to pass through the front (leaving) end of a station at no more than 15 MPH (although they may enter at up to the maximum speed for the area). On newer signal installations (those installed since the early 1990s...say, Brighton Line Phase I and newer), the signals are designed to allow trains to pass through at up to 35 MPH. However, BY RULE, trains are not allowed to pass through the front end of a station anywhere in the system at a speed above 15 MPH.
Here's the rule, from RTO Bulletin #70-01, dated April 13, 2001:
----------------------------------------------------------------
TO: ALL TRAIN OPERATORS
SUBJECT: TRAIN SPEED LEAVING STATIONS
This bulletin is issued as a reminder to reemphasize that the rule limiting the speed of trains leaving stations to fifteen (15) miles per hour applies to ALL TRAINS skipping stations, including trains instructed to take battery runs, light trains, work trains, and short trains etc.
The existing signal system has been designed and installed based on certain assumptions as to how trains will be operated. It is essential that these operating rules be strictly obeyed and enforced to ensure that the protection provided by the existing signal system is not compromised.
Train Operators are reminded that when skipping stations they are to be governed by the instructions in Rule 39 (i), which states:
"The train will enter the stations being bypassed at the normal speed for the area; the Train Operator will then begin to decelerate gradually, ensuring that the train does not go faster than fifteen (15) miles per hour as it leaves the station. The Train Operator must blow the horn or whistle at the entering and leaving end of the station.
"Unless ordered by the Control Center or an RTO Supervisor, Train Operators operating LIGHT trains must not enter stations, unless they can get their whole train beyond the station platform without making a stop. On stations that have grade time signals, either within the station, or at the leaving end, the Train Operator must regulate the speed of his or her train so that the signals will clear without the train coming to a stop. In no event must speed exceed 15 miles per hour.
"The only exceptions for LIGHT trains shall be in those stations that require the Train Operator to punch in to indicate the requrested route or train identification and where this can not be done prior to entering the station."
While the operating procedure outlined in this rule allows trains to enter stations being bypassed at a high rate of speed, their speed must be reduced to fifteen (15) miles per hour before reaching the leaving end of the station. A train leaving a bypassed station at a speed greater than fifteen (15) miles per hour compromises the safety provided by the signal system.
After th Train Operator's cab has passed the leaving end of the station at fifteen (15) miles per hour, normal train speeds for the area may be resumed. (and in bold...) Please note that trains given "run's and "battery runs" are not exempt from this rule.
Line Managers and Train Service Supervisors must enforce this rule to ensure that trains bypassing stations reduced their speed to fifteen (15) miles per hour before reaching the end of the station.
-----------------------------------------------------------------
David
The wording on this rule is a little vague. Does this mean that the front of the train upon reaching the end of the station area can be traveling no more than 15 mph or that the train can not go faster than 15 mph until the entire train is clear of the station platform. It seems to me that I've "videoed" trains leaving stations that are doing comfortably above 15mph by the time the last couple cars approach the exit!
It means that at the time the operating cab of the lead car passes the leaving end of the platform, the train should be doing no faster than 15 MPH. It can accelerate after that, subject to any speed restrictions in the area (yellow signal, speed restriction sign, etc.), which means that the rest of the train could be doing considerably more than 15 MPH by the time the entire train is through the station.
Any Train Operator who is not clear on the meaning of this Bulletin should contact a Train Service Supervisor.
David
Who will, of course, take this perfectly clear explanation and muck it up for you.
Oh, it's just more paranoia like all of the little yellow
speed restriction signs that went up all over the place a
few years ago. I get it. They are concerned because at some
locations there may be a block beyond the station which is
short because there was a design assumption that trains would
be approaching slowly after having made a station stop.
My question was how the tph could be increased if the 4/5 went skip stop in that section and the 6 just ran express from Brooklyn Bridge.
The key to maximizing tph in an environment with closely spaced stations is to ensure identical movements of each successive train at a fixed headway. The skip-stop and express movements that you propose would actually reduce capacity.
"The TPH is based on trains stoping at their statoins."
Exactly. In NYC's subway, with few exceptions, the signal system is not designed to handle trains NOT stopping at stations. By rule, except where otherwise posted, trains bypassing stations must slow down to 15 mph at the time the first car leaves the station -- and it's not just to avoid hitting people leaning over the platform.
David
the signal system is not designed to handle trains NOT stopping at stations.
The signal system is designed to keep a minimum separation between trains, prevent collisions at junctions and ensure a maximum speed on selected stretches of track. Whether these trains stop at stations or not is immaterial.
"...and ensure a maximum speed on selected stretches of track"
In this case, the stretch of track _I_ have selected is in a station. The signal block length in the area is determined contingent on the idea that trains will be stopping in the station. If a train does not stop in the station, but, rather continues through it at full speed, an emergency brake application triggered by a stop arm may not stop the train in time.
Perhaps someone better versed in NYCT signal engineering than I am will enter the conversation and elaborate (or maybe refute me completely -- who knows? :-))
David
""As was said elsewhere, the #5s are needed in BROOKLYN!""
Well we got *that* mantra down pretty good.
BUT *ARE* they *needed* in Brooklyn?
I think not. The (1) is now running to Brooklyn.
The (1) *Used* to go to South Ferry.
Let the No. 1 handle (5)'s Brooklyn business, and let the (5) go into South Ferry.
Fare Exchange, no robery.
Elias
The 1 has replaced the 3 in Brooklyn; if you take away the 5 what will replace it?
"The 1 has replaced the 3 in Brooklyn; if you take away the 5 what will replace it? "
Ah, yes, that is right. OK, why can't we put the 1,2, 3 & 4 in Brooklyn. and the 5..... oh well.... they are probably doing the best they can, huh?
What's your question?
The 1 is taking the place of the 3 in Brooklyn (since only expresses can turn north of Chambers without bringing the rest of the line to a crawl). The 2, 4, and 5 are unchanged.
Would it hurt everyone to walk the 2 extra blocks?
Would it hurt everyone to walk the 2 extra blocks?
Which 2 extra blocks?
Three reasons it won't happen:
1. The shuttle platform is closed for asbestos work.
2. It would require configuring special two-car trains, none of which are set up in the system at this time (although R33 singles could easily fill the bill).
3. Why bother? It's only two short blocks.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
The routing would be to the outer loop platform which was in use as of 9/11 before the disaster. Gap fillers already in place mean that no rolling stock changes are necessary. Just terminate the 6 there.
A suggestion to improve service at that station: Since it can only fit five cars, reconfigure the stop marker so as to put cars 2-6 in the station. That would allow people from the front half as well as the rear half to exit the train, something not possible on most trains since they have full width cabs in the middle of the train.
Yes, this idea would create problems with opening the doors, but I'm sure they could get around it.
Thoughts?
Dan
Doors open in two sections - in front of the CR and behind the CR. it would require a little gnome with a key running around on the train cutting out doors to make your idea feasible. People in the rear half of the train are perfectly well able to leave at South Ferry, since the CR is required to open the doors through the cabs before arriving at the station. The biggest probem is usually the people who don't know where the FRONT of the train is.
That is a TWO TRACK line between Brooklyn Bridge and Bowling Green.
It does not have the capacity to carry the number 6.
Elias
Ooh.Close but no cookie.
1 and 3 is correct but you can use some R62 cars(comonly found on he 3 if they didn't change the fleet)for a 2 car set.And most of the abspestos won't hurt anyone exept the stairs might have it since those stairs weren't in use for 24 years.
When it gets to be winter, the Staten Islanders are going to start whining about the 2 block walk. Wrap up the asbestots work and two R33S can easily be set up.
YUMMY ASBESTOS! HEY GUYS, GET THE DIP! WE GOT ASBESTOS OVER HERE! PART OF A COMPLETE BREAKFAST!
YEE HAW. I REGRET NOT INHALING MORE.
Good olde bubba even tried to inhale, but we all know how that went.
someone pass the pcp's.
Now that glenwood has been seen, we are fireproof, woohooo take that health board.
that's just what i was thinking. time to go play with some matches! hey beavis! fire fire!
WOOHOOOO, lets get it from THE SOURC, Glenwood
perhaps in a bit - there is some nice 'dead baby mudget hermaphrodite' chambers deep in the basement of that north building. it's mad dark in there, but it's phuntastic. maybe when marty gets back? I still need to see the marty method in action.
rws-ltv-ulens ground troops: our lungs are safe from terrorism!
I have heard from some fellow workers that South Ferry has sustained some damage. (structural or water I don't know) But the main concern right now is the retaining wall and the fear that it might collapse and flood the system. Until Cortlandt street is free of debris and the powers that be are sure there is no chance of flooding South Ferry will most likely be closed.
You don't mean the retaining wall separating the New York Subway from New York Harbor, do you?!?!?!
Yes, that's the one.
A sensible decision. The 1/9 line's affected areas will have to be rebuilt, supporting structures inspected and reinforced, and the rest of the tunnel inspected and serviced.
I would also take advantage of the additional federal aid to provide ADA elevators and escalators to all three stations and improve their ability to handle large numbers of people.
Um.....wow......
They're going to concrete-plug Cortlandt Street station at each end.
My kids' first day back in school (Thursday), there as a car accident with injury right in front of the school as the kids are lining up. I've seen several more in the days since.
When I took the train in to Downtown last Saturday, the T/O over-ran the platform. Never saw that in 18 years on the trains. On the way home, a T/O ran a red.
My wife was standing in a bus stop Friday. The bus went right by (perhaps confused by the lack of a double-parked car). Never happened before. On the way back, another driver spaced out through a bell and went right past someone's stop.
I haven't been fully productive either. People just don't seem to be with it. It just isn't as easy to focus.
Larry, we're all in shock. We think we've absorbed it, but I don't think so. It feels like the kind of loss you suffer when a close relative dies. Everything seems super real. You know mom passed away. You make arrangements. You call relatives. You go the funeral, etc. etc. Everyone visits and gives you support. A week or so later you return to work and you think you're past the worst of it.
Then you wake up one morning and you really understand it.
Maybe I didn't explain that too well--I guess you have to live through it.
My point is that we're kind of going through this nationally. When we really aborb this, people's mood may change. More anger? more fear? I don't know.
Our schools didn't skip a beat. They talked about it with the students on the 11th. That night they had homework and a regular day of school with regular classes the next day. At the time I wasn't sure that was a good idea, now I think it was the very best thing. The kids seem to be taking it better than us grown-ups.
Yup when my Mom first died everyone called me and spoke to me. But I was still in shock. It wasn't until this year that I really felt the pain. Sadly not many have been there for me except my Uncle. I was jyst starting very slowly to get over the loneliness and then September 11th happened. I'm in depressed all over again, and I've got almost everything packed up (for the move). Moving is hard and I just want to get outta here but I'm waiting for some damn $$ for the movers. Melillo said they'd take care of everything, but they won't pay for movers. I can't on only $600 a month. I'll probably have to get my Uncle to help because I've been waiting weeks and dammit I'm moving by this Friday!
I haven't been fully productive either. People just don't seem to be with it. It just isn't as easy to focus.
Hard work can be theraputic. I didn't go into work on Wednesday the 12th, not that I had any choice given the limited access below 14th Street, and spent much of the day watching the endless TV coverage of the disaster, and brooding.
I went into work on Thursday the 13th, although the office was still officially closed. I was one of only three out of 25 people in my department to come in. Despite the smell in the air, the huge amounts of smoke to the south, and the police lines along the next block south, I was able to get quite a bit done. And I didn't brood nearly as much. Then on Friday the 14th, with about half my co-workers there, I had to work like crazy to get a weekly newsletter out in time. As you might imagine, I was too busy to fret about what had happened.
In short, while it's hard to be motivated, trying your best and working as hard and focused as possible makes it easier to deal with everything that happened.
Yup, it seems everyone is off these days. Lately I'm having trouble getting up alot. As far as my observations with transit goes, I haven't seen any major emotional effects. But on the 1 train I rode to Times Square the conductor announced transfers to the N and R which are not actually running.
My fatugue is also probably being caused by my moving delay, as I am waiting for social services or someone to help pay for the move. But it's gonna happen by Friday, if I even have to carry everything there myself!!
...that and there is the strange vibe in the air. perhaps fear? perhaps togetherness with your fellow citzens? Probably both...
I rattled and willed my way out of the shock of it by the 13th. something eventually snapped in me when i realized me being in that shock-state wasn't doing anyone i knew any good.
on a whole, i'd say we've all held up rather well, some more than others dependant on their proximity to things. when people start running to the woods screaming into the night, then i might think differently... (not that i haven't considered getting a nice cabin/bunker in the woods myself in recent times... who hasn't?)
I think it's a normal reaction to the enormity of the terrorist attacks on the WTC, the Pentagon & Pennsylvania plane crash. Over 6000 people died. That's such a large number that we don't know how to deal with it. We will always be haunted by the images of those airliners crashing into and ultimately bringing down the buildings. I'm lucky in that no one close to me was hurt or killed in the WTC. But many of my neighbors are not so lucky. At least 180 Staten Islanders are among the dead, including 78 Firemen. Nothing like this has ever happened in our lifetimes and there is no one right way to deal with it.
I was on a 1 train last week and noticed that there was a lag of at least 15 seconds before the doors opened at each stop. Either the conductor was thinking too much about what had happened, or else he used to work for the LIRR (where door-opening delays are legion).
Probably needed to take their time getting the window down so they could salute the board before opening up. :)
Do any of the R-62A's have door enablers yet?
I was surprised to see door enablers on a train of R-44's. I thought they were only on the Eastern Division's trains for the time being.
Friday afternoon, cabbing back from work, we spotted a autorack trailer truck wedged under the N el that goes over the approach to the upper level of the 59th st. bridge. What made that truck driver think he could go there is beyond me...
...then today, i spotted another trailer, wedged under the N (w) el in astoria - under 38th av. this dispite many many signs stating the lowered clearance from 37th av to 39th av.
i wonder if some of these drivers are trying new routes or something due to traffic, or just not thinking straight.
not sure about friday, but the W was running right above todays wreck as the esu squad was deflating the tires... the trailer was ripped open like a tin can.
Friday afternoon, cabbing back from work, we spotted a autorack trailer truck wedged under the N el that goes over the approach to the upper level of the 59th st. bridge. What made that truck driver think he could go there is beyond me...
...then today, i spotted another trailer, wedged under the N (w) el in astoria - under 38th av. this dispite many many signs stating the lowered clearance from 37th av to 39th av.
i wonder if some of these drivers are trying new routes or something due to traffic, or just not thinking straight.
Mishaps like that are not at all uncommon. Overheight trucks frequently tangle with low bridges on the parkways in Westchester, and sometimes with LIRR overpasses.
it's rather rare to see around these parts (kinda surprising with all the industry deeper into LIC...) - 2 in the span of 3 days no less.
good to see that the old el can take a few wacks and keep on keeping on...
On the N21 going to Flushing the driver actually picked up someone inb Queens! That is a first.
All cars must enter parking structure from H Street enterance. No more access from Columbus Circle/Massachusetts Avenue. Taxis may drop off in front of the station but must pick up along First Street, NE (west side of station, near Metro enterances.
NY Penn has a notice on the old train departure board that Amtrak now insists on a photo ID before they'll sell a ticket.
What about the QuickTik Vending Machines?
I dont know. I'll check tonight. I would not be surprised to see that disabled or maybe just for reservations
Are the conductors still selling tickets on the trains?
NJT is still selling tickets on the train. As far as I can tell the AMtrak machiens are still working. Amtrak is also asking for photo ID to check baggage.
How does showing a photo-ID improve security ? You can buy a ticket on the train, and terrorists all have photo-ID's anyway. That's how they got on the plane as passengers.
How about send the 5 to South Ferry and to replace the 1/9 south of Chambers St. Put buses in place of trains from Chambers St to South Ferry!
The only time service to South Ferry would be of help now is during rush hours; at those times the 5 MUST run to Flatbush or Brooklyn will come to a halt from the overcrowding.
>Put buses in place of trains
> from Chambers St to South Ferry!
Kinda HARD to send a bus
down a street or area which is
blocked off by police and other
officials....
The area in which the 1 train runs in Lower Manhattan is pretty much closed off. There is no reason for a civilian to go there.
I heard from my MOM that her Teacher's Friend that she works with have someone that works at Century 21 Department Store near WTC. That Buliding would be comming down as recording to the friend.
This was told after the 3 Days after WTC Came Down. And since b/c of that. I would be guessing Months before the N/R would run AGAIN b/c of that!
That means the old East River Savings Bank is gone too (I use to have an account there)
Phil Hom
ANOUTHER ONE DEAD!
Century 21, as I recall, was in an older building on Cortlandt St. I think part of it actually faced (and had an entrance) on Church St. I think it also went block-thru, but forget which two blocks, either Liberty or Dey.
The final size of the 'vacant lot' will be interesting.
I assume their 86th St. Brooklyn store is still open.
Totally incorrect. The owner of Century 21, an Israeli national, told us a an expansion of the Bay Ridge store that although damaged, the structure (reinforced concrete) is sound.
Now let's get back on topic!
I heard from my MOM that her Teacher's Friend that she works with have someone that works at Century 21 Department Store near WTC. That Buliding would be comming down as recording to the friend.
Let me see if I get this straight ... a person who works at Century 21 told another person, who told another person, who told your mother, who told you. Passing information through so many people is a pretty sure way of killing off whatever accuracy it ever had.
In times like this, it is very important not to pass along dubious information as fact. The truth is difficult enough.
I got lost reading the original post... all I can say is I used to walk down that block as well as the WTC mall everyday this summer...
That leaves the LI Westbury store their largest now I guess.
I thought that Century 21 was in the same approximate state as was Millenium Hilton and 1 Liberty Plaza. The Mayor was talking about putting out the list of "red tag", "yellow tag" and "green tag" buildings (destroyed, unsafe, safe) - I will see if it is in tomorrows New York Times.
wayne
Looking at the information flowing in this thread, I think for the sake of everyone, there should be some sort of an oficial master list of buildings in the WTC area, so people can understand what was destroyed or damaged, and thus the danger to the various subway lines within or adjacent to the site. The word in the Daily News on 1 Liberty Plaza is totally at odds with other news reports! Bad news travels faster than good and rumors travel faster than fact. Hopefully someone will supply the facts!
Today's NY Times has such a graphic in their "The City Section".
The NYT site is difficult to use, but this is the link to it's graphic. It's 'interactive'.
http://www.nytimes.com/library/national/met_DAMAGE_010920_00.html
They might want to make you register, just so they can spam you.
Century 21 is in 22 Cortlandt.
They might want to make you register, just so they can spam you.
I am registered with them and as far as I can tell the only spam I get is their own notices... they state that they don't sell their information to others and that would appear to be true. I have a number of email addresses and the one I have used for them and a couple of other journalistic sites doesn't receive any true spam at all.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
You know you spend too much time on this board when your first observation is that the bullets shouldn't be all red.
(Today's NY Times has such a graphic in their "The City Section".)
I have a great deal of interest in whether or not Century 21 is dead or alive. And I've looked at each of those maps and tables showing the status of buildings. As far as I can tell, Century 21 has been a blank each time. Anyone see any different, and able to tell conclusively what the status is?
I don't know if this would make a differnce, but debris pushed out from the base of the buildings would have been screened from 1 Liberty and the Millenium by the two low buildings at the front of the WTC. But debris could have rocketed right between them into Century 21.
Heres most if the truth
Everything South of Trinity place and North of Chambers street is ok.
1 Liberty plaza has a few broken Windows.
Century 21 isn't sound.If you was able to sneak by the army and walk in there you would see nothing short of a warzone ok!
Isn't Trinity Place a north-south street?
Century 21 had a Department Store?
Not related to a real estate company with the same name.
The store expanded and took over the old Woolworths.
>a real estate company with the same name.
EXACTLY what I was thinking..
Really? I once worked in that building (not for Century 21, but another company). Why is it coming down? What about the pizza place next to it and the Chinese food place behind it? How are they?
- Lyle Goldman
Hello there!
This is my first time posting here, If youre interested in my background info look at the end of the message for a summary.
I was looking at the new maps that the MTA put out, and I took a look at some track maps of the South Ferry Terminal area. Is there any reason why the MTA wouldnt simply have the #6 end at South Ferry instead of Brooklyn Bridge/City Hall? According old resources, the #5 uses the inner loop to turn around at night, and according to the track maps, there are two switches that would permit access to the outer loop, which should allow a train to return back to Bowling Green... Or is Bowling green just too close to South Ferry?
Stego
(Summary! Native New Yorker born in 71 who moved to Southern California in 87. Subway was giant train set for me during my childhood :) There really isnt Anything like the NYC subway systems at all... the systems out here (Metrolink and the LA Area MTA) are extremely young versions of the systems back there... Currently working on a website with photos of the abandoned ROWs out here in the San Bernardino, CA area....
The #6 would have to merge with #4 and #5 on the Lexington Avenue express tracks in order to get to and from South Ferry. There isn't enough peak-hour capacity on the Lex express to run full #4 and #5 service PLUS the #6 service.
They could like run alternate #6 trains express from Brooklyn Bridge with #5 and #4 getting priority.
"Currently working on a website with photos of the abandoned
ROWs out here in the San Bernardino, CA area.... "
Querstion : is that not where the Metrolink Trains end now ??
on Sat Sep 22, southern california transit system (salaamallah) wrote:
> Querstion : is that not where the Metrolink Trains end now ??
Hello there!
Yes they do! Its sad as they have the potential to go Much further (Perhaps into Redlands, or even further (Having a line running as far as Palm Springs would Not be too unthinkable)). Its only recently that Metrolink is FINALLY getting a really decent ridership, and expansion is a good possibility. There was an article somewhere that mentioned that the Metrolink execs are Really excited about the increased ridership, however they are now realizing that most Southern California Drivers just dont deal with trains very well (Read as Increased Train/Car accidents). To deal with this, they are slowly working on Grade Crossing elimination, which is similar to what the NYCTA did all those years ago.
Its amazing how rail-friendly Southern California once used to be, almost rivalling that of NYC at the time: Having a look at the old Pacific Electric Railway Maps (1899-1953) really makes me wonder "What in the World happened to all the rail transit out here?" Of course only NOW people are wishing the Red Cars didnt disappear like they did, and its a heckuvalot more difficult re-claiming/re-building, or even starting a new system, with all the new residences all over the place, not to mention all the EPA laws and impact studies that have to be conducted now...
The old ROW that Im working on was a loop owned by Atkeson Topeka & Santa Fe RR Co. that travelled some 35 miles around the cities here: It used to run north along where the 215/30 freeways are now, it swung through Highland, through East Highlands, across the Santa Ana River, into Mentone, then into Redlands, past Bryn Mawr, and then back up into San Bernardino. Only 10 miles of the original track remain, but the ROW is mostly there. ID love to see it get reused, but thats only a dream....
A Strong suggestion to all those railfans with Right of Ways that are being disused or abandoned in their area: Find the people who own them, get support, and dont let them give up or sell them off! Once theyre gone, theyre gone! If the trains are already running and new people move in to the houses along the tracks, its no big deal as the owners would have already been aware of the train situation. BUT Those New people who end up moving in next to an old ROW DONT want to have a train running through their backyard again, and most will put up a fight (The Rockaway ROW in Queens, NY is facing this problem now).
Stego
Doh! I forgot to put in a Comparison for those of you not familiar with Los Angeles area Rail Transportation systems...
At the height of the Rail era of Southern California in the 50s, Pacific Electric had one of the biggest Inter-Urban systems here in California, as shown on this map (The same one from my previous post, but check out the ERHA site to see all the OTHER passenger rail companies that existed!!).
In comparison, this map shows all the regional Rail coverage that we have today, provided by Metrolink and This map, which shows the Red/Geen/Blue lines in the LA area along with the planned expansion to Pasedena.
Sad how Southern California GOT RID of most of its rail systems through the years, isnt it? And of course its expensive rebuilding the system. Not to mention that All the systems here are run on the "Pay by the Distance" concept, unlike the "Single Fare- Go Anywhere" concept of the NYCTA.
Thanks for the update and your viewpoint. I was planning to retire from the USAF and go back to SoCal and Riverside from New Mexico (we lived in George AFB/Victorville now known as Souhern California International Airport). I even had an interview with PSI, the company that provides support for AM/PM stores. Things did not pan out so we opt to move back east.
I remember someone updated the PE map to a modern style transit map. Do you know of it and lead me to its source. Thanks.
Phil Hom
>>> . Not to mention that All the systems here are run on the "Pay by the Distance" concept, unlike the "Single Fare- Go Anywhere" concept of the NYCTA. <<<
It is only Metrolink which is equivalent to the LIRR that has distance based fares, and generally operates as a commuter railroad. The Red, Blue and Green lines are flat fare ($1.35, the same as buses), but require additional cost transfers to switch from one line to another or to or from buses. They do offer a discounted round trip fare that is not available on buses.
Tom
For one thing, "what happened to all the rail out here" -- years ago, after World War II, people started making more money. They could then afford automobiles. The cost of automobiles wasn't that high in those days.
Then there's the GM/Firestone/Standard Oil controversy. It all adds up to the fact that southern California did allof its MASSIVE growing as a result of the automobile. Rail simply didn't have a chance, as epople did not want to be restricted to schedules, routes, etc. Now that the automobile basically runs life here in southern California, it will be difficult, nearly impossible, to undo.
Metrolink IS doing a good job of running the rail commuter system. Yes, they are growing slowly. But they are growing SURELY. They are in the process of taking delivery as we discuss this matter of 34 additional cars to handle increased ridership. Basically, that's all they can do now with the money they've got -- it is far more expensive to rebuild some of the rights-of-way that they planned to (such as Hemet-Riverside) that it is to keep up with the demand for service that is already there.
Do you guys remember the sub pilot from Who Framed Roger Rabbit, was to but the PE and tear it down to build a freeway and gas stations
As many others have said the first problem is track capacity, i.e. after Brooklyn Bridge/City Hall the Lex. Ave. line reduces from 4 to 2 tracks. Also, there are too many folks that need all the capacity the TA can provide from Brooklyn.
Second if you look closely at the track arangement from South Ferry to Bowling Green you'll see the "shuttle" platform would only serve south bound traffic (even if you use the outside loop at South Ferry). So, if it's impractable to use the thru track platforms and the only other platform only serves on direction of traffic, then it doesn't seem like a very good idea.
Same logic goes for running a "shuttle" from Bowling Green to South Ferry , then to Rector.
Maybe the TA will have to do something there though if Cortland St on the 1/9 and N/R are going to be out of service for a very long time.
Mr t__:-(
Anybody know about the h line?
A long long time ago, it was a Brooklyn IND local terminating at the Court St. Station (now the transit museum).
As I recall, they briefly called a 6th Ave shutte, 57th St to 2nd Av the H, or maybe, I only recall them talking about it. I certainly never remember seeing this latter-day H.
No. All IND locals were double lettered, there was never a "H" IND Line, but a "HH" local/shuttle that ran between Court and Hoyt-Schermerhorn Sts.
No, Not "NO."
There was indeed an H, running from Euclid to Rockaway Park. It's on the Fall, 1985 map. See my Subway Map FAQ.
The last R-10 I ever rode on (1988) was signed up as "H". What a ride over the flats! The South Motor was the redoubtable #2974, in her Greenbottle livery. I though the old girl was going to shake herself apart but she flew like the wind!
wayne
As we get more modern the things around us lose character. Compare the R-10 with the R-40M...R68. Beautiful buildings like the Empire State or Chrysler Buildings with the rectangular boxes of the 70s and 80s. The Queensboro Bridge with today's superstructureless concrete slabs. Even the gingerbread of the old els, with the plain lobbies and drab windscreens now in vogue Thankfully we have some preserved bits and pieces of our past. And someone like Kevin Walsh to go out, find and record them!
Of course new things have no character. Character takes TIME to build. When ESB or the Chrsyler building were built, I never read anything about people proclaiming how much "character" the buildings had. Do you think that the R10 was built with character in mind? I think not. 50 years from now, people are going to be saying how much character the breadboxes of the 80s have, while saying their new buildings are nothing special.
Hey! Don't you knock the simple yet elegant R-42!
The HH line was supposed to be a Fulton Street Local, providing local service while a Manhattan train (the A train) provided the express service. But in practice that never happened--the HH was the shuttle train between Court St. and Hoyt-Schermerhorn.
Later the Roackaway shuttle was designated the HH. I understand it's still unofficially the H, but this doesn't show on signs or maps.
What train did you see this on? Was it on a R32?
I didn't see this on a train.
One time I saw a Roll Sign on a R-32 set up for (H)!!
The HH used to be the Court Street shuttle (now the Transit Museum). Then, a number of years later, it became the Rockaway shuttle, up to 1985, when the double letters were eliminated and it became the H until around 1993, when it became the S (Blue bullet).
The H was originally susposed to run from Euclid Avenue to Court Street making local stops (so in theory it was the HH). It ended up running as a shuttle from Hoyt to Court (as the HH) for 10 years (from 1946-1956, IIRC). It remerged as the Rockaway Park Shuttle (as the H) and ran from Rockaway Park to Euclid Avenue or Broad Channel, depending on the time of day and day of the week. Late at night, it ran a round-robin service from Euclid to Rockaway Park to Far Rockaway and back to Euclid. This H started when the C to Rockaway Park was discontinued. It was redesignated as the S when it was shortened to Broad Channel at all times. It is still designated as H on the picks.
Actually, both the H and the Rockaway Park C ran until 1992 (although I believe the H only ran when the C didn't). In 1992, the C was cut back to Euclid and the H, which had run round-robin from Euclid to Rock Park to Far Rock and back (I guess the night A ran only to Lefferts), was replaced by two shuttles, one nights to Lefferts and one at all times between Broad Channel and Rock Park.
That is correct. My 9/30/90 map says the H ran when the C did not.
I was at 14th St./ Union Sq yesterday waiting for a southbound #6. On the express track came a #5 train of R-62As, but unlike the past, these cars had yellow (Pelham) stickers. I know these cars are for the #5 Dyre OPTO shuttle, but not sure if the cars from months past had yellow Pelham stickers. Anything change with equipment being shifted around ?
Bill "Newkirk"
IIRC:From the years past the R62A's on the 5 had bared the traditional Pelham sticker.Recently a few cars have bared the stickers from Van Cortland.The 6 also bared a Van cortland sticker under a Pelham sticker(on some 6 trains those stickers are visible).
Brent Polanchek has this unyielding passion to drive trains. "There's nobody in the world who likes trains the way I do," he says.
So here he is, having the time of his life in a cab seat of a leased green-and-yellow diesel, enjoying the roar of the engine, the p-s-h-h-h of the air brakes, the radio banter with the trainman on the ground as they switch freight cars.
It wasn't easy for Polanchek to become an engineer. To do it, he had to acquire his own railroad, "a real expensive train set."...
StarTribune story continues ...
Good for him! I like his spirit and his can-do attitude.
Thanks for posting that. I hope he succeeds!
I sent in my first Employee suggestion form, requesting the through routing of the M to replace the W shuttle on weekends. We had heard a lt of speculation about "track work" on the bridge or tunnel for most of the next 3 years (leading some to wonder why they would need to do more work on the tracks that were just rebuilt and reopened). Even this explanation seemed pretty fuzzy.
But the exact main reason the Office of Human Resources gave me is the DeKalb Rehabilitation capital project. I guess we had forgotten about that and were left to assume it would be mostly "track work".
Of course now, with the N & R out, the West End is getting the extended W service. The M was supposed to also, but they changed that, even at the expense of screwing up the rest of 4th Av. service with a Sea Beach shuttle, and a very infrequent J by itself as the local.
Wouldnt it be easier if both Divisions were made into one.Think Now that everyone is screaming for Repicks ,just break it into zones.All that has to be done is Requaliffy most people on the equipment.That should make some of the Repick nonsense go away.
Let's not... it won't be like this forever.
Besides BMT/IND cars wouldn't fit in IRT tunnels anyhow. Same gauge But different length.
I don't think that's what he means. The IRT and BMT/IND are considered separate divisions with different cars and not everyone is qualified to operate any car on any line.
Obviously, physical combinations of the system are impossible.
NOT upper Lexington[Woodlawn,Pelham] or lowwer 7 Avenue into Brooklyn[Times Square to Boro hall-Atlantic ave to both branchs.Also South Ferry as far as Rector st]UPPER White plains rd line above E180 st too.These are all Dual contract line built to Tri-boro[BMT-IND]spec.
A lot of people are not qualified on the equipment for both divisions. I personaly have never worked the B division just as some people have never worked the A division.
I hope there is no repick because then I will be forced to pick a job.
What is being done with the tons of roller signs taken out of the redbirds?
Are they being disposed of, or is the TA holding onto them for whatever odd reason?
When we were on the 207 St. facility tour a few weeks ago, they were being tossed into dumpsters. Whether or not someone has cared to save some, I don't know.
Are there are dumpster divers up there in NY that could get one for me?
Ya know, if only the TA *knew* how many million of us
blokes and dames here on SubTALK would SAVOR getting
their hoofs on them reef redbird rollsigns...
Even if sold for $5 a roll, it adds up to quite a
PRETTY PENNY and saves us an unnecessary fare hike.
Those rollsigns would make quite a good transit museum gift store item. I know I would buy one!
Aye, me there... and I can also think of a few
others who would jump on this very same rollsign
shopping line.. if MTA were to 'open' it.
The TA shoud think of what they are doing when they are throwing away 50 year old rollsigns.
Those rollsigns (except maybe one or two that were missed) are considerably less than 50 years old. These are modern Mylar replacement roll signs that are from the mid-1980s at the earliest.
David
STILL YET,
which is the better scenario?!?
SCENARIO 1:
TA throws rollersigns in dumpsters, thousands of fans are left without signs that they would enjoy (aside from the few lucky scavengers), and the TA itself (particularly the Museum) misses a golden opportunity to boost it's own checkbook, or
SCENARIO 2:
TA donates signs to Museum, which charges a (hopefully) nominal fee of 5 or 10 dollars. Fans take home a piece of history, and the museum gets needed funds for projects.
I wasn't arguing the merits of the proposal to sell the signs. I was merely refuting the contention that these were the original signs (which -- by the way -- if truly 50 years old, would be older than the cars they were on).
David
The signs couldn't possibly be older than 1979 -- that's when the current color scheme was introduced.
A few (very few) cars retained at least one sign with the old color scheme, and a few (very few) cars retained at least one black and white original sign.
David
I can't understand why transit authorities fail to see the collectability of artifacts such as roll signs and old station signs and the profit potential these hold for cash-strapped operations.
In the '80, tales abounded of SEPTA chucking 1907-vintage Market Street el station signs into dumpsters and selling for scrap recently rebuilt but never used motors from the Brill Red Arrow Division trolleys. And several largely intact 77-86 series cars and Brilliners were cut up rather than saved for museums. It was sickening.
Recently, however, I noticed SEPTA's Web site was selling railfan goodies such as number plates (about 40 bucks, IIRC) and other items from recently retired Market Street subway-elevated cars (the "Almond Joys"). New York needs to take note!
That is true of SEPTA. I managed to acquire an M-F Skip-Stop "A B" front etched glass plate from the Museum store there (negotiated a GREAT price too), in the hopes of converting it into a neat wall lamp - still have yet to start that project!!!
Maybe somebody who works there could get some to sell as a fundraiser for Branford or Seashore? I as well as many others would buy one and would love to see a WF Single at either museum rather than in a Reef!
In the '80, tales abounded of SEPTA chucking 1907-vintage Market Street el station signs into dumpsters and selling for scrap recently rebuilt but never used motors from the Brill Red Arrow Division trolleys. And several largely intact 77-86 series cars and Brilliners were cut up rather than saved for museums. It was sickening.
More recently, during NYCT's rebuild of the Franklin Shuttle, some pieces of old station canopy were seen unceremoniously dsicarded in a junk yard right next to the line.
I'm not sure as to the current process but I recall when our last rapid transit car was purchased for the TMNY, the parts of the train were required to be sold in as is condition, not as surplus. Parts of the scrap car such as doors, lights, sign boxes were not considered surplus. Lately, Material Sales does have a link for artifacts and certain parts of trains and buses. Apparently, not all the signs are going in the dumpster after all. Stacks of them are piling up on pallets from the reef project so keep an eye out at the museum as I think they may be reading your complaints after all.
I'm curious about one thing: if a car is set aside for a museum, isn't it left pretty much intact?
I will assume that arrangements are made with material sales to buy a certain car number in as is condition, just as previous cars were purchased. A museum will want to know the car's history and condition before buying and will want to monitor these conditions while waiting for transit. In the 1980s, some cars were stripped of parts to keep the surviving few running, such as with the R17s and R16s and it is to the buyers advantage that spare parts are obtained to bring a complete car to the museum property. With 6688 or 6398, since the parts used in maintainance and repair were no longer ordered in commodity numbers, stripping other cars for parts was necessary to bring the car to an acceptable "as is condition". Car inspectors looking for parts don't know if the car is privately owned or not, they are looking for a quick fix to their own problems.
I'm curious as to whether 1689 arrived at Shoreline intact. I never asked Eddie S. about that, and he didn't volunteer any information.
Does the TA realize (or care) the money they are throwing away ?
11,200 roll signs from 1400 cars ($10ea/$112,000), 1400 pairs of Express/Local signs ($10set/$14,000), countless aluminum grab-straps.
They could get $1 million all told, and donate all Redbird proceeds to a Victim's fund.
They were selling some sign boxes at the March of Dimes trip - I bought one for $50. So they are aware they can make money on these - why dont they sell them thru the Transit Museum?
>They could get $1 million all told,
> and donate all Redbird proceeds..
Or stick that $1 million in O'Leary's back
pocket for when he gets hungry to hit us
geese with ANOTHER unnecessary fare hike,
he'll remember he does got that rollsign $$$
to put to good use on 2nd Avenue... if ever.
1) Al O'Leary is a spokesperson for NYC Transit. He does not set agency policy (fare hikes or otherwise); he merely interprets it for the public.
2) In an organization with a $3 billion operating budget, $1 million is a rounding error (metaphorically speaking). It is certainly not an amount on which to base a decision about a fare hike.
David
Citizen David (not Pirmann),
Show me a time in the past 15-some years when the
MTA had a CLEAR, CONCISE, AND LOGICAL REASON to call
a fare hike.
And when they get it... marvel what they do with that
incoming cash flow??? 2nd Avenue still unbuilt (cheers
to MrX2001 for the vision), the elevators at 191st
are still untouched (tho due for service), lack of
care/conditioning at BMT-Chambers St (speaks for itself)
and lastly, I chide all goes well with the brand-new
r-143/OPTO testing.. we (the fare-paying public) have paid
for it all.
For the most part, capital funding does not come from the farebox.
Fare increases are done as a last resort, after deficits eat up whatever operating surpluses have accumulated over the previous few years and the various governmental entities have decided they're not going to contribute any more opeating money than they're already contributing.
David
(continued, previous).. we (the fare-paying public) have paid
for it all...... yet we still don't quite have it all.
Also, what is being done with the lights, ERL's, and the windows and doors of the disposed Redbirds?
I really want the T/A to use those lights again, since they still have years of life in them. as for the ERL's and the doors and windows, they might have throw