For a while, I have been reading on the MTA website that they would be installing new "Compact Fluorescent" lighting in the Fourth Avenue subway tunnels in Brooklyn. However, I have yet to see any such thing happen. Does anyone here know when and if the new lights will be installed? Not that this is a big deal, but if small improvements like this were supposed to be nearly finished by now but have not even started yet, how can we expect bigger, more important projects (like the Second Avenue Subway) to be done in any reasonable period of time?
- Lyle Goldman
Those compact flourescents are great. I wonder why they aren't in most of the system yet, especially the IRT where tunnel lighting is worse (ESP the 7 line between Times Square and HP).
Be patient! bthey are installing wiring, upgrading rooms
and installing conduit and removing asbestos. The CFs are on the way on 4th av brooklyn.
Consumer compact flourescents have their ballasts in the base, so they can be screwed right into any light socket. The fixtures in the tunnels were originally for mercury lamps (which were a more white color, and were replaced a few years ago). Mercury's need ballasts, and therefore required the new wiring and fixtures. I wonder if the flourescents they are using are a special kind that are not self-ballasting, and run off of the mercury ballasts. In other words, why don't they just screw in flourescents everywhere without having to rewire and install bew fixtures?
Of interest is a blue compact bulb that is installed in an area that is not rewired, and is not in a new fixture. It is at 42nd Street on the 8th Av. line, across from the north end of the northbound platform, on the columns between the express tracks. This bulb is a deeper blue than the compact flourescents-- in fact, more like the richer color of blue LED's. LED bulbs exist, and the ones I've seen sold online look just like compact flourescents (the shape and the large base. Inside is a rod from which the LED units are mounted). LED's do not need ballasts, only resistors, since they use such less power. Buth they are hundres of dollars apiece, and the last time I saw, came only in white.
So I wonder if that is a test with LED bulbs. They make more sense than even flourescents
CF's come both as tubes to be inserted in ballasted fictures and as 'screw-in' units. The tube types are generally used where the greater longevity of the ballast is appreciated. (less crap to throw in the landfill when the tube ages out.) Also there are several designs of ballasts, both he older 'magnetic' (essentially a transformer) and the 'electronics' often more efficient.
The ones the TA uses are obviously screw-in, but still, could the ballast still be in the wall mounted box, rather than the base? If not, then I wonder what they need all new fixtures and those ballast boxes for.
Those lights last longer and use less power. There is a savings for the MTA by using them, and if any of you guys out there own your own homes, consider doing the same thing. It is, after all, your money.
Are the compact fluorescent (Note the spelling, guys!) lights more energy-efficient than the mercury vapor bulbs?
- Lyle Goldman
"
Are the compact fluorescent (Note the spelling, guys!) lights more energy-efficient than the mercury vapor bulbs? "
They sure are. The compact fluorescents are either 18 or 22 watts. The mercury vapor bulbs used may be 100 or 175 watts, depending which one was used. Now mulitply that by how many fixtures can be in the tunnel and you'll see the savings.
Also, mercury vapor lamps require a ballast to boost up voltage to ignite the lamp. The compact fluorescents require none. The ballast is built into the lamp base.
The best part is if a compact flourescent isn't available, an oridinary incandescent will work. Can't do that with a mercury vapor lamp.
Bill "Newkirk"
There have been occasions when Home Depot along with LIPA (long island power auth) would offer instant rebates of about $3.oo
Every little bit helps! The cf bulbs come in various shapes, lumins and wattage sizes. They have cool white,warm white and bug yellow.
I just wish one IND station or BMT station was done with warm cf bulbs.
avid
"I just wish one IND station or BMT station was done with warm cf bulbs."
Actually, the warm white bulbs would not be an improvement in subway stations. Better would be the C-50 or C-70 lamps, they are very flatering to colours and expecially flesh tones. It would look like someone opened up the side walk and sunlight was flooding in.
Unfortunatly, they are more expensive, though maybe with a bulk order from the MTA there might be no price difference.
Next to a C-50 a cool white lamp looks like a warm white lamp.
Elias
What are C-50 and C-70? (vapor discharge, fluorescent, etc)
"What are C-50 and C-70? (vapor discharge, fluorescent, etc) "
They are regular flourscent lamps (tubes).
The C-50 and C-70 are color designations just as are Warm-white, cool-white, and others such as grow-lights etc. They are really just numbers taken from the Kelvin rating of the lamp. Regular flourscents burn in the 3000-something Kelvin range, and these burn in the 5000 and 7000 Kelvin ranges respectively.
Elias
That tells me everything. It must be bluish, like some mercury bulbs, and white LED's (which are about 6400K). The higher the color temperature, the bluer it is, an the lower the redder it is. (So the tannish soft/warm white bulbs have a low temperature-- about 2700K). You normally think of red as hot and blue as "cool" (hence "cool white"), but it's actually the other way around. In fact, the very fact that red is seen as hot is because it is the first visible emission as a substance is heated ("red hot")-- showing it's the coolest color. Heat metal, gas, etc. more, it becomes white, an then bluish. A bit of scientific technical info there
Yeah just like with stars, "Red Giants" are cooler than blue stars. Most stars start out as blue ones, then as they cool they become white, yellow, and then swell to red giants. In eons our sun will become a red giant and probably swallow earth. By then hopefully humans will have subways on other planets! :-o
The compact fluorescents are kinda pricy so the rebates do help. However, the TA will order hundreds if not thousands, so the quanity discounts will pay off.
BULBTALK !!!
Bill "Newkirk"
I pity the poor guy in the TA who has to fill out thousands of rebate applications, snip out thousands of barcodes, and stuff thousands of envelopes. At least they'll be able to be mailed bulk rate.
What about the "one rebate per household" rule? :D
Does the TA ask for bids or go to the manufactererererr?
avid
"Does the TA ask for bids or go to the manufactererererr?"
I have seen "Rapid Transit Bulbs" listed in the Sylvania, GE and Westinghouse lighting catalogs. Including the ones with the reverse threads (to thwart swiping... do they *still* have those?). Also Lower voltage lamps in the 32 volt range for subway cars, and in the 70 volt range for modern locomotives.
Elias (Bulbtalk)
If they have various shapes and colors, why did they choose the color and shape that they did?
- Lyle Goldman
My guess thats what the vendor replied with in answer to the bid put out by the T.A. It met the T.A. specs. for Bulb, screw type, 110v @17-23 watts, coolwhite, cf, unit 10 gillion each.
avid
> . . . coolwhite
But they're not cool white! They're yellow-orange, almost the same color as the incandescent lights!
- Lyle Goldman
"The compact fluorescents are either 18 or 22 watts. The mercury vapor bulbs used may be 100 or 175 watts,"
The deal with murky vapor is they provide *more* light than what is needed in a subway tunnel. The flourescents are enough.
In theory you *could* use fewer of the murky vaps, but then you'd have more shadows and less even lighting.
Apparently they have put such flourscents in the blue phone phixtures, and they are rather bright.
Elias
> . . . colours . . . phixtures
What are you doing? Are you turning into Jersey Mike now? (:-0)
- Lyle Goldman
Speaking of lighting on 4th Ave, during yesterday's AM commute, it was completely lights-out at Prospect Avenue, though my train did stop to pick up passengers. Anyone know what was going on?
The June 2001 issue of "National Geographic" features a two-page photo of an abandoned locomotive from the gold rush Council City & Solomon River Railroad, a failed early 1900's line near Nome, Alaska. I have a couple of additional images on my web site at www.nook.net/~tomnflo/nomephot.html#716 .
According to the Geo, the three steam locomotives at the site were shipped to the gold fields about 1903, having been recently been retired from the New York City elevated, as the el began electrifying in 1901.
Can anyone help me with details on these delightful little locos, such as manufacturer and type, manufacture date, or any other interesting information?
Tom, Nome, Alaska
Those are "Forney engines." Go here:
http://www.columbia.edu/~brennan/rails/forney.html
Tiny world, ain't it? (grin) I lived in Juneau for a while.
Interesting. We have a Forney Rail Museum in Denver. Until recently, it was housed in the former Denver Tramways power plant. It has since been relocated to the vicinity of the Denver Coliseum, IIRC.
Any of the steamers alive and well out there?
I just read on a different forum that there was a Forney running up in Mass. but apparently it is a narrow guage unit.
Elias
That's closer ... never saw one of those though the locos on the Mount Washington cog railway are delightfully kludgy in their own right. I had a buddy years ago who worked at Steamtown. Took me on board one late night as he was prepping one for the following day's use. A *LOT* of work to wake one of those up. Sure glad I never had to do that kinda stuff. :)
Former NYC Steam Locomotives? Are representatives from any local Railway Museum in this area interested in acquiring it?
If it is a NYC piece it belongs in a Museum....
-Stef
Follow his link to the pictures on his site. I think they'll turn into redbird dust the moment you get a cradle around the boilers. DAMNED pity there's no Forney engines left to display ... but then again, who's left that would know how to stoke one? Remember Ohio.
"DAMNED pity there's no Forney engines left to display ..."
There is a Forney engine from the Chicago "L" system at the Museum of Transport in St. Louis. It's from the South Side Rapid Transit system, and looks gorgeous since MoT did a cosmetic restoration a few years ago.
Cool! None that I'm aware of here in Noo Yawk ... looks like a road trip. :)
Stef, the folks in this area have become very fond of these little locos over the past 98 years, and I think they'd object to their repatriation.
And there really isn't much left of them. The ocean's about a hundred yards away.
Thank you to everyone for the wealth of information on them.
Tom, Nome, Alaska
They are true pieces of history, despite their condition.
Regards,
Stef
Tom,
How many locos are there ? If there are more than one, could they part with just one ?
Bill "Newkirk"
Hi, Bill,
There are three of them, according to Barris' database, Numbers 21, 159 and 303. One of my employees told me today that he's pretty sure there is an original manufacturer's nameplate in at least one of them, and if I can spare the time this weekend, I'll mosey out there again, climb around and check.
I don't know if there's a "they," but I think Nome people would be very upset if the trains were disturbed. It's an ornery lot up here.
The locos are especially pretty on a rare late summer's day, when, like in the Geo image, the grass has turned yellow. It's not unusual to have brilliant sun on the train site, with an extremely dark sky background. There's a 1975-ish image that I think is still sold as a poster in local gifts shops.
Take care, Tom
How accessible are these engines? It sounds like they are
nearby to where you live out there. Their existence has been
known for several decades, but recently attention has been
called to them again because of the Nat Geo article. There is
also rumored to be an ex-Manhattan Forney in upstate NY.
Do you know to whom these relics belong? It is highly unlikely
that they could be made operable, but they might be restorable
as a static display.
If you can identify a location, be happy to check it out for you. Had no idea we've got any up here, though with the acid levels of the rain being what it is up here, I suspect all we'll find is a red stain on the ground up here.
The benefit of the Nome area is that it's usually frozen over somewhat (especially if they're more than 10 miles inland) and "appear" by magic when the ice cracks. The sea breeze isn't all that pronounced in that area, so there'll definitely be more left up there than up here ... I've always been fascinated by them - rumor was (until dispelled by staff) that the Mount Washington Cog Railroad had Forneys in their past (they did not - they were all custom built) ...
Jeff, they're in really, really bad shape.
They are easily accessible by car, about 45 minutes from Nome on the gravel Nome-Council Highway, which is open between around June 1 and October 1, earlier or later, depending on the snow.
As for who's land their sitting on...I'll inquire.
Tom
The National Geographic pictures made them look pretty good!
I guess rough is in the eye of the beholder, especially in
the railway preservation world. Thanks for the info.
Thanks, Jeff,
And thanks to everyone for the information.
Most people in Nome think those three little locomotives are absolutely beautiful, and I agree.
So much of this area's history has been lost, or rusted away. Nome itself suffered a castrophic fire that destroyed most homes and the entire business district in 1934. These little train remnants are about all we have, and in their present condition are reminders of the thousands of broken dreams suffered by the rugged people who landed here a hundred years ago, most of whom labored to buy a steamship ticket home.
Best wishes, Tom
Does anyone have the TA Rule Book on a Pocket PC or Palm? If you do can you please send it to me
MTAJr1@aol.com
If I put the rule book on top of my palm, it would crack the screen.
>GR&D<
ARTICLE about the possible enforcement of door holding rules.
Peace,
ANDEE
ARTICLE about the possible enforcement of door holding rules.
Peace,
ANDEE
I like the 2am comment.
That early and trains are on a 20 minute headway OR GREATER and the person is right there at the door (not up the stairs, around the corner yelling "Hold the doors").
Maybe it's three too many Mt. Dews, but
I seem to notice that the doors seem to remain open
for LESSER periods of time on any train I have
ridden during the overnights (20 min headways).
Whereas, the norm (30?) seconds door-open time
can be counted during a weekday am/pm rush hour trot..
I thought the rule is 10 seconds?
Rule 97(L)
At 7AM, reverse-peak, 75th ave: 2 seconds, no announcement.
Not everyone follows the rules.
ITS ABOUT TIME!!!!!!!
I'll believe it when I see some jerk at Grand Central getting a summons for holding the doors.
At 2 AM I highly doubt the police would (or should) enforce door holding laws.
A few other stations should be:
Roosevelt Ave
Lexington Ave / 53st IND.
Lexington Ave / 60st BMT.
Union Square IRT.
Times Square IRT.
During rush hour, all of Lexington from 42nd Street to 86th should be watched. I notice especially that 51st (constant stream of people running from the E/F transfer), 59th (busy stop) and 68th (also pretty busy, but mostly people getting off) are problem spots if you want to get anywhere on time.
Such a rule would probably be counter NY State statutes. The judgement call would have to be did the person hold the door for no purpose or was the person exercising his legal right to enter or exit the train.
My guess is that the TA is currently being sued by a dragging victim. They want to shift any culpability towards the victim.
The summonses are a dangerous game for the TA. They really don't want a case to go to the discovery phase in a civil suit. If they issue a summons to some curmudgeon who demands a jury trial with press releases - watch out. They will have opened a Pandora's Box.
The City of New York/NYCT can realise plenty of revenue if this rule was enforced on the E line at stations like WTC, W4th, 34th, 42nd, Lex, and Jamaica Center. And I can back up this statement by virtue of recently completing 26 1/2 consecutive months of working the line doing 4 round trips per day. And I don't want to hear from some bleeding heart that "the conductors don't give us enough time." There is a constant stream of passengers constantly coming down the stairways of these stations from at least 6 AM to 9 PM. Conductors can't stay forever in the station, someone has to to miss the train and have to door shut in his/her face. And at the terminals, when the starting lights come on, time to go, since they've had ample opportunity to board. I was late too many times and had F trains put ahead of me s/b at 75th Ave. and n/b at Fifth Ave. because door holding caused me to miss my merging slot.
I noticed that they have installed a new PA system on the IND platform at 24th/6th. You can actually understand the annoucements being made now. Good show!
Peace,
ANDEE
I noticed that they have installed a new PA system on the IND platform at 34th/6th. You can actually understand the annoucements being made now. Good show!
Peace,
ANDEE
That's the same PA that was there. They just changed the ANNOUNCER from a soft-spoken female to a much louder male.
No, it's not the same PA that was there. There are new speakers all over the place.
Peace,
ANDEE
Humorous Article about bridge flip changes.
Peace,
ANDEE
That was funny, I like that last part "and two new S lines that will just run into each other." And the Gracie Mansion one.
Thanks Andee, that WAS funny!
BMTman
Yes, Doug, I found it most amusing my self. Glad you enjoyed it.
Peace,
ANDEE
What? No discourse on which equipment would serve the Oct 30th special to Camden, NJ? I'm upset! :)
--Mark
It was already decided to be:
this and these
lol
Oh, and here's a pic of one of the "run in" shuttles
Perfect! Thank you for clarifying! :)
--Mark
Is the latter a pic of the LAST train that ran to Camden?
Is the latter a pic of the LAST train that ran to Camden?
No, that's Camden City Hall.
It wants me to sign in.
Then do so. If you haven't registered there, go for it. It's free.
Cool, the S-Train is comming to Camden! Maybe I can get home for that. I wonder if I could get a $1.50 ride to NYC and back.
And I thought the NY times sucked... the shuttles part was funny...
Humor in a New York Times article, what's this World coming to ?
Very enjoyable, thanks for sharing !
Mr t__:^)
I found a picture taken from l994 of the Fort Apache youth center On Fox st. in the South Bronx. I'm wondering if anybody knows if it's still there?
PAL marty- Police Athletic Leauge.
I had a discussion with a friend at 130 Livingston and found out some interesting info regarding what subway equipment is copyrighted and is in the public domain.
I learned that any equipment PRIOR to 1940 is copyright free. This means that if someone wants to produce a model of the R1-9, BMT A/B's, Bluebirds, Green Hornet, D-Types, LoV and HiV's they can do so w/o the knowledge or approval of the MTA/NYCT. However, all R types from R-10 to present were designed by Board of Transportation and/or NYCTA engineers and are thusly copyrighted by MTA/NYCT.
BMTman
If true, it would mean you can still build your models - you just can't sell them without an agreement with MTA...
Right. This is why Nate Gerstein and other 'independent modelers' have produced Bluebirds and D-Types in Ho and O scales but did not require any contract deals with MTA/NYCT.
...who has the copyright on tokens??
:>
The same group that has the copyright on Metrocards....duh!
Why? Are you planning to make your own?
I've seen a few of them ... amazing what folks will do to try & save a buck.
Mr t__:^)
C-mon....these are MODEL TRAINS for crying out loud not prototype cars, who will make millions with model cars ? you'd think they would be happy that a namesake of N.Y.C. is advertised in any way at all....schesss
Copyright laws apply regardless of whether you make $5 or $1 million. Should laws apply only to some people and not others?
jeez louise. It certainly must be summer! Twenty plus years ago we all went around about this when the lawyers at Chessie System had nothing better to do than threaten HO model "manufacturers" with huge lawsuits demanding immense royalties for train kits painted in Chessie schemes. The Wall Street Journal front page article noted that some of these products were made in basements by people with dat jobs making train kits for the love of the hobby. Finally after months of BS Chessie and several other RRs agreed to a nominal fee and I hoped this silliness was over.
I agree with you. I'm not saying MTA should threaten to prosecute over something minor. What I am saying is that, even as a hobbyist, one should obey the law and exercise courtesy and disclose what one is doing if it is for sale. MTA, in turn, should accept a small fee only, or perhaps only require that their logo be tastefully and properly displayed (good free advertising and PR!).
Courtesy is a two-way street. The MTA lawyers are owed it as much as anyone else.
.
General Motors did the same thing in the early '90s, demanding a $25 per unit royalty for automobile and truck models. Miraculously, their demands evaporated when Ford and Chrysler said "make as many as you want, we'll help you make sure they're accurate".
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
In this country they apply the laws as they feel and twist and bend them by interpretation depending on the situation and who is involved. I've just gotten badly burned [only to confirm what I've felt for years] but I won't trouble you guys with a mess I got myself into...I will say it was NOT justice.
This thread makes me worry that I could be sued for selling the set of R12,15,17,21,22,26 cars that I built myself for copyright infringement. Unlikely they'd do it but technically, yes.
Why do they "get" some people and not others? How about anti-trust laws for example. They told Checker Motors who owned National Transportation Company [taxi fleets] that it was an anti trust violation to supply their own fleets with cabs of their manufacture. Baloney...nobody cared for years that the Pennsylvania RR built most of its own locomotives, which were good ones I'd add.
Look at the HUGE mega-merged railroads which hold a lot of states captive to one freight RR, these and mega business in general to me are anti-trust violations. Greyhound controls almost all intercity bus transit. Nobody really cares.
Corporations have gotten way too big, I see them as anti-trust violations but what I think won't change squat.
There's always a possibility that someone could make a model of the entire transit system with models of modern cars and charge $10 for people to see it. Once the MTA hears that money is being made and they aren't getting it...
This has been an evolving trend over years. It used to be that operators and manufacturers were wildly flattered to have their cars modeled or locomotives, cars and decals for them in company colors and with company logos.
Of all the manufacturers of models I knew, a surprising number of them (included well-known names) were "mom-and-pops" for whom sales were a meager or supplemental income.
As to the issue at hand, if licensing fees weren't reasonable, it might be worthwhile to see which designs were produced under the old law (28/28 copyright), if the copyright was ever registered and, if so, it was ever renewed. If not, a lot of equipment designs (up to R44 or so?) could be in the public domain right now.
Also, there is an issue of fair use. If there weren't, the MTA could be sending Dave a bill for publishing pictures of their copyrighted R-142s. Also, you can't copyright history. It might be possible to produce models of subway cars (without implying official sanction) based on outwardly observable features. This might have to be decided in court but the MTA's ace in the hole on this issue is that, if they did take you to court, who do you think has the deeper pockets?
...who do you think has the deeper pockets...
MTA's lawyers are probably on retainer, so it probably won't cost them a dime to fight a perceived copyright infringement.
Of course, if they tried something really aggressive--say I wanted to reissue the BMT Standard and they wanted a royalty on the basis that they are successor to the BRT/BMT and I was trading on the fact that one of these cars is in the TA museum, they could possibly be countersued and their deep pockets might work against them in a jury trial.
Not an attorney, but I've heard of such things.
Paul,
Great idea! How about re-running the ABs? Also, C'mon everyone, let's get real, if the MTA was really considered a business, they would have gone Chapter 11 a long time ago.
The MTA is a publicly owned and run agency, so if they really want to be silly asses and demand copyright protection and royalties on their rolling stock when it comes to mom and pop model operations, why not once again publicize this and show how petty the MTA can be. If's its an agency for the public, why not find out how the taxpayers really feel about this!
We've got: Hot Lunch!
Will you reissue a 'o'scale BMT standards set hmmmmm ?
Never did a Standard in O Scale. My heart aches at your suggestion, because it would truly be a beautiful thing.
I have the technical side to do such a thing, but I've been out of the trade a long time. It's improbable Seiichi Kumata (pres. of the co. that made the Silver Leaf Standard on contract) is still around, so I'd be starting off new. Besides, when the original HO Standard was built it was one of only two U.S. design rapid transit cars ever made commercially--now there are a number of manufacturers who could pick up the torch, if they chose to.
I received the silver leaf publications you id in the 60's i even visited the the places you had photographed in the staten island book,the old building that was almost collapsing i didn't go in just outside,
I still have those books and look at them every so often still in mint condition though....
i even visited the the places you had photographed in the staten island book
Others have told me they use the SIRT book as a tour guide of the system, since it's not that physically different, 36 years later.
I wonder what has happened to the approx. 800 SIRT books bought ny SIRT commuters...?
There is a civil service title series for lawyer >G< they work for the MTA.
More absurd Intellectual Property abuse!
The only thing which should be copyright-able is the actual
blueprint drawings. To say that someone can not make a model,
photograph or painting of an object which has been designed and
purchased with taxpayer money to serve a public purpose defies
the notion of fair use.
Even though they abandoned the application after five years of trying, at one point the MTA tried to register a subway map-like trademark covering the following goods and services:
(ABANDONED) IC 016. US 002 005 022 023 029 037 038 050. G & S: paper products; namely, gift wrapping paper, greeting cards, note paper, post cards, memo boards, photo albums, correspondence holders, paper coasters, paper napkins, paper table cloths; un-mounted photographs; calendars; posters; souvenir paper weights. FIRST USE: 19941000. FIRST USE IN COMMERCE: 19941000
(ABANDONED) IC 028. US 022 023 038 050. G & S: toys; namely, model subway cars, trains, trolleys and buses; board games, jigsaw puzzles and video game cartridges. FIRST USE: 19950400. FIRST USE IN COMMERCE: 19950400
(ABANDONED) IC 020. US 002 013 022 025 032 050. G & S: photo frames; ornamental novelty buttons. FIRST USE: 19941000. FIRST USE IN COMMERCE: 19941000
How do you like them apples?
Paul, and lets not forget that the MTA/NYCT has the copyrights to all of the logos for the subway route markings (numbers/letters).
BMTman
Paul, and lets not forget that the MTA/NYCT has the copyrights to all of the logos for the subway route markings (numbers/letters).
I honestly and truly don't believe those would hold up in court. They are way too generic. What is there copyrightable about them? The shape? (round) The color? (not unique) The typeface? (There is no copyright in typefaces in the U.S.).
If I were to take a route number off their website and use it maybe they could claim an intellectual property right. But if I create the same thing in Illustrator from scratch, I don't see where they can claim a copyright.
OTOH, they might try trademarking the route designations. In that case, if I build my own Eighth Avenue Subway under the current one, and put my own "A" train on it, they could probably sue me on the trademark bases of dilution, passing off and confusion.
Paul,
Before you go off and do that, you might want to check with an attorney who understands copyrights.
I did. You can't use any MTA symbology or logos for profit (you can for personal use) even if you draw them yourself, any more than you can sell items with the Campbell's Soup Co. or Ford or whatever logo on them, even if you drew them yourself.
Do yourself a favor. Don't offer legal advice unless you're admitted to the bar - and talk to a lawyer.
I make no pretense to being a lawyer. This is a public forum and these are my opinions. Anyone who actually did something based on what was said on the Intenet and went to the judge and said that I told 'em it was OK probably needs someone help more skilled than that of a mere lawyer. ;-)
But I have a decent layman's knowledge of intellectual property based on work over a period of years.
Visit www.uspto.gov and you will find the basis for my not using Campbell's Soup Co. or Ford's symbols because they are claimed as trademarks and are, in fact, registered trademarks.
I don't see anywhere that the MTA claims trademark protection for its route symbols.
Now if we're talking copyright this is a different ball of wax. Copyrights are intended to protect published material with some level of uniqueness and some intellectual originality. I can't publish a history of the Brighton Line, for example, and then sue anyone who uses the same facts in another book if they come from another source. In fact, I can't even sue them if they use some of my facts in their own work, assuming the use falls within the bounds of fair use. And, yes, I've had that on the advice of somone with an Esq. after his name.
If the MTA somehow believes that it has a copyright, as opposed to trademark interest in these symbols, I'd like to hear how.
One thing you could do is write to MTA asking them to explain it. They'll write you back, and you can take their answer to an attorney for a second opinion.
Did Andy Warhol get flak from the Campbell's Soup people for his paintings that represented Campbell's Soup cans?
Paul, I believe it is the combination of using those specific colors with those specific numbers or letters (in Helevtica BF) that are copyrighted by MTA. All of the T-shirts and keychains that are sold in the Transit Museum gift shops have copyright notations for them.
BMTman
I understand, Doug. The T-shirts and the keychains with the designs are copyrighted, but I'm still looking for the basis of copyrighting the symbol itself, if this is in fact what they're doing. The fact that uses of the symbol in a commercial product are copyrighted doesn't presuppose that all the elements of it are also copyrighted.
In my (disclaimer-not legal-duh!) experience, the route symbols themselves would be the subject of a service mark, as, e.g., "Symbol designating the A train service of the New York City Transit Authority." I don't see they have made an attempt to do this.
If you could lay claim to all sorts of intellectual property through simple copyright claims, there wouldn't be any need for trademarks and patents, would there?
[In my (disclaimer-not legal-duh!) experience, the route symbols themselves would be the subject of a service mark, as, e.g., "Symbol designating the A train service of the New York City Transit Authority." I don't see they have made an attempt to do this.]
Well, Paul, apparently they have but not in your complete wording: As I type this to the site, I went and pulled out my keychain which is a mini-version of the 14 Street-Union Square signage (including L,N,R,4,5,6 lines). In a micro-sized type face in the lower right-hand side is "(c) copyright New York City Transit Authority".
BMTman
Well, no that's not quite true. Even a public agency has the right and legitimate interest in promoting and regulating appropriate use of intellectual property.
But many governmental publications do not have copyrights. For example, the CDC often publishes articles marked "In the public domain. No copyright applies." The government wants people to freely distribute and reproduce the material.
Of course, the ethical thing to do is to credit the agency for any material you use, even if you don't have to pay for it.
I would have to agree, Jeff. BUT, the MTA (like any other large corporation) is in business to make $$$$. Hence, they set down these copyright rulings involving their equipment -- grandfathering in all equipment that was designed/built during the Board of Transportation years.
Any equipment designed and built by the separate companies prior to BdofT (BRT/BMT, IRT, IND) are in the public domain as far as MTA/NYCT is concerned.
BMTman
Hence, they set down these copyright rulings involving their equipment -- grandfathering in all equipment that was designed/built during the Board of Transportation years.
They can only claim copyright in older drawings if they were published with the copyright notice. Even then the copyright would expire after 28 years unless renewed at the Copyright Office.
Now the contract books I've seen do not carry copyright notices. Not on the printed pages. Not on the contract drawings. The union bug is there. R. G. Welch's signature is there. No copyright. So on what basis does the MTA claim copyright protection? 'Cause they say so?
And, I'll clue you in to something else. The drawings form the '60s-'70s (maybe even recent ones--I just haven't seen) say "CITY OF NEW YORK acting by the NEW YORK CITY TRANSIT AUTHORITY." So it seems to be if there was an intellectual property right, it would be the City's, not the MTA's.
Good point, Paul. Perhaps this is a subject in need of deeper investigation after all...
BMTman
ok so lets say i am the most talented model train modeler in the usa ! then i make every train in the subway fleet to scale !! then on the internet i offer them for sale etc.. now some nut from the mta with the F B I C I A D E A police etc man they are a comin' after me man !!
Geeeeeeeez ! I am scared sick !! ( kiss my grits ).....?.........lol.!!
How much would it cost to clone a HiV, or an R1? approximately? LOL!
Does anyone know how this affects photographers.....if they take a hard line view, they can demand a property release, then, on any photo with a subject that includes a modern car, or a logo or route marker.
Correct.
I should point out that the MTA has licensed the right to use the subway map and symbology in a computer game, and although the market has not yet accepted such a game, anyone else using it for that purpose would first have to obtain that (exclusive) license from the licensee.
Are you an attorney, Ron?
Touche, Paul.
Really? Even if their by-laws on use of the NYC Transit Authority property indicate that "photography w/o ancillary equipment or lighting is permitted" provided you don't go into unauthorized areas?
--Mark
Technically speaking, there is nothing wrong with taking the photograph itself. If you intended to sell it as a print or as part of a publication, you generally need a property release if objects that appear in it as the subject that are recognizeable as private property, logos and car numbers, and such for example.
Peter Dougherty, if you're around could you shed any insights on this subject vis-a-vis your experience with the map book?
Technically speaking, there is nothing wrong with taking the photograph itself. If you intended to sell it as a print or as part of a publication, you generally need a property release if objects that appear in it as the subject that are recognizeable as private property, logos and car numbers, and such for example.
This is getting silly. On what basis are you making this assertion? If this were true, every book, magazine and newspaper in the country with such identifiable items would have to seek massive numbers of property releases. I've been in publishing and printing for a long time, and I have never seen any such releases sought or asked for.
I recently traveled part of the city with a film crew, who are super sensitive about permissions. They only sought releases from people who actually spoke on camera, if case that might be used. There were no releases for passerbys and certainly none for filming incidental private property.
You bring up a fair point....I should have clarified that statement further. Releases are very rarely needed for editorial work or newspapers. Nor are they needed, as you pointed out, for all those passerbys, because they are in public and not your subject. And so it's no surprise that you have never seen a release requested.
There are certain situations in which they are asked for and many buyers of photographs that prefer and even require them, and so I wonder how the issue of the MTA's copyrights over cars and logos plays out in the situations that someone might ask for a release. It seems very likely to me that even those prone to request a release might not ask for one in the case of the subway, seeing as it is a mode of public transportation and that the MTA wouldn't care either.
I've wanted to post some things on the board for a while. I had an opportunity to post some of the things on July 20th and 23rd. I was online, but didn't do it. I had similar opportunities on July 30th and 31st, though I wasn't online on the 31st. Well, August 1st will be the day I will post these things.
When you respond to these things, I would appreciate it if you would do one of the following.
1. If you're responding to only one of the topics below, copy and paste the topic name (it's in all caps) into the subject line before you post the message.
2. If you're responding to more than one of the topics, please quote the parts of this message you're responding to (either inside quote marks or square brackets, or in a different font style, like italics). That way, it'll be easier for everyone to understand what you're referring to.
Thank you. Now, here are those messages.
STRANGE R46 SIGHTING
On July 20th, I was on an E train. I saw a train of R46 cars on the local track next to the E train. That train looked a bit weird as the E train was passing it. I got off the E train at Continental. I waited a few minutes for that train to enter the station. The front of the train had two spotlights brighter than the headlights. The lead car was 5968. The electronic signs were all set to "SPECIAL." The train passed through the station and went on to D6 track. What was the purpose of this so-called special train?
STRANGE R32 SIGHTING
I saw a pair of R32 cars, 3674 and 3675, leading an N train into the DeKalb Avenue
station. A strange thing concerning them. On the outside, the rollsigns appear to be set to a combination that suggests it's an A train running from 207th Street to Lefferts Blvd. However, on the inside, the signs are set so that it correctly indicates it's an N train running between Ditmars and Coney Island. I saw that the reason they look that way is because that boards were taped from the inside to the windows. That is a strange sight, isn't it? By the way, I got a picture of one of these cars at Canal Street, and another at Lexington Avenue, with a piece of evidence in each picture that proves that neither picture was taken in IND stations. These, and other pictures documenting the Manhattan Bridge Flip, will appear in Transit Pictures 26.
R142A'S CAN'T SAY "W"
I was on a 6 train of R142A cars on July 23rd, and the announcement for 59th Street failed to say W in the list of transfers. The conductor manually had to say "transfer here to the 4, 5, N, R, and W trains."
It has been more than a week since the Manhattan Bridge flip. I have not been in Manhattan since the 23rd. So I wonder, do the R142/142A cars now say "W" and "Q" on the list of transfers for the Broadway line, or do they still mention the transfers as they were pre-flip?
NEW PRINTED & ONLINE TIMETABLES
I also want to inform you that the new printed timetables are out. I got the new (E) train timetable on Monday at the Jamaica Center station. I also got the timetables for the (Q), (W), and (B)/(D)/(S)/(S) lines online. On the (E) schedule's cover page, the bullet is centered, and takes up about 1/4 the height of the page. The word "Timetable" is beneath it in a color bar that takes up the width of the page and is in the color of the bullet. On the cover page for the (Q) (and I would assume on the 1/9 and J/Z), there are two bullets, which are a bit smaller. The diamond Q bullet is to the right of the circle Q bullet. On the 6th Avenue timetable, there is a map on the front similar to the one on the centerfold of the "Manhattan Bridge Service Changes" brochure.
MRM'S NOW ARRIVING
These smaller MetroCard Vending Machines, about the size of a phone booth, are now being installed in many subway stations. I know of three stations which have these machines working:
61 St-Woodside
34 St-Herald Square (32 St/B'way entrance)
Rockefeller Center
What You CAN Do on MRM's
Get and refill cards
Trade In/Combine cards*
Get Card Info (serial #, expiration date, money and time on the card)*
Pay with credit, debit, and ATM cards.
What You CAN NOT Do on MRM's
Pay with cash or coins
The items marked with an asterisk are the functions on these machines that I would find most useful. I use credit cards on extremely rare occasions.
WHAT'S WITH THE W'S?
Anyone notice those new (W) bullets on both the station signs and the R68 rollsigns? It looks like they took an old (M) logo, colored the M black and the circle yellow, then flipped the whole thing upside down. It looks nothing like the (W) bullet on my site.
Well, if it looks like a W, it'll be recognized as a W.
I also apologize if any of this has been posted before, especially anything concerning the W train. I've been away for a week and wasn't able to get online during that time. Since I am allowed only one hour on these library computers, I couldn't read a week's worth of messages, even on the compressed message index. I also had a lot of e-mail to read.
I saw these same cars too. When I saw it all rollsigns on both sides had been covered by the boards, several of which were falling off. Did you also notice the bulkheads of both cars had been repainted a slightly different shade?
I have a picture of 3675 at Canal Street (N line). Take a look.
Can't read it very well...does that say A train?
Peace,
ANDEE
Yes, very clearly. I can tell by the text of the rollsign reading:
Washington Heights - 8th Av. Express.
Railfan Pete.
If the signs inside the car are displayed correctly, then the problem is simply bad ordered end sign curtains. Here is another case on SubTalk of car defects being reported rather than calling the TA customer complaint number so that they will get properly repaired. Employees putting this kind of defect on the car defect sheets means it won't get repaired unless they get a customer complaint. That's how it works in the TA.
Correction: side sign curtains. Of course, end sign curtains are a thing of the past on the R32.
That's not a rollsign you're seeing. Those are cards placed between the glass and the rollsign. You can sortof tell by looking closely at the northern destination.
Nothing special about it. The train was out of service. Don't take every sign seriously.
That's what I thought, but he mentioned something about spotlights on the front...
The computers will not be updated until November reflecting the new transfer opportunities.
You're doing the 6 Line for BVE? I have a R142A train for you. I just need sounds. Can something be worked out?
The only sounds I need are the following:
... Buhre Avenue
... East 143rd Street-St. Mary's Street
Each of which preceeded by "This is a Manhattan-bound 6 train. The next stop is..."
I have Brooklyn Bridge-bound announcements for both the local and express.
I also have sounds of the doors openiong and closing, complete with "stand clear of the closing doors, please" and the doorbell. A lot to fit in 5 seconds.
I don't have a sound recorder. But you're free to use my R142A. The beta is at
r68a_5200.tripod.com
You can send me the sounds to my e-mail address preferably in wav format. I'll apply them to the train when I get back from China. I'll be back Aug 21st.
Like I said before, the R142/142a's will not be program to say the new tranfers until late fall(November?). Instead, C/R's on the 2 and 6 lines are supposd to have these cards indicating the correct transfers at the new locations with the Q,W,S, and Grand St Shuttle depending on the time of day. When they arrived at a station involving a transfer with the Q,W,S, or Grand St Shuttle, the C/R is supposed to make a manual annoucement.
What about middays at Fulton, Borough Hall, and Atlantic? Not that it seems to matter -- I haven't heard an R-142 conductor yet make manual announcements where appropriate.
How hard could it be to update the automated announcements? (If it takes more than a few minutes, that's a design flaw.)
And why does the overnight (local) 2 announce the C at 59th? When the 2 runs local, the C doesn't run at all. (It correctly omits the B.) For that matter, why do the announcements call it a "Bronx-bound 2 express train" when it's making all local stops?
why do the announcements call it a "Bronx-bound 2 express train" when it's making all local stops?
It's pretty simple. The R142(A)'s automated announcements are made and produced according to the name of the line that it refers to.
For example: consider the 7th Av. Subway lines,
1,2,3,9
The #1,9 trains are 7th Av. local lines because they run local full-time (except for service diversions, etc.)
The #2,3 trains are 7th Av. Exp lines because they run express in Manhattan during normal hours. (Exp in all 3 boroughs rush hours only in certain directions) So it is debatable to say "A Bronx-bound 2 local because it's not local in regular service.
Automated announcements are not available in immense quantities. The conductor shouldn't take the job of switching back and forth the announcers, because:
1) It's twice the job to try and switch it during late nights.
2) When the train arrives its destination, it makes the next conductor confused as to whether or not he/she switched it.
3) If you've ever seen a conductor's cab in an R142(A) car, have you noticed the swtiches and buttons? They are not as easy as someone may think. It's not just pushing a button and automatically it can say "a local train".
Are the automated announcers responsible for stating the transfers too? I thought that was the clear job of the conductors. on a Brooklyn Bridge bound #6 train at 68 St. - Hunter College thru 51 St. Lexington Av., the automated announcements were VERY AUDIBLE AND CLEAR both on the inside and outside of the trains and platforms. But the conductor CLEARLY stated the transfer trains without question or disbelief in the accuracy of the transfer trains.
: )
Railfan Pete.
umm...UH HUH
Wrong.
The train was making local stops. The announcements correctly announced all the local stops. The announcements correctly omitted the B transfer at 59th (but erroneously included the C). There's no reason for the announcements to call it an express train, especially since anyone who isn't used to riding at night will probably assume that it's running express as usual and will unnecessarily wait ten minutes for the next 1.
Transfers are also announced automatically. Since they haven't yet been updated with the recent changes, the C/R is supposed to make manual announcements where appropriate, although I haven't actually heard this done.
Those MRM's were here for some time now. They are also four of them side by side at 34 St. - Penn Sta., on the 7th Av. lines ONLY.
They've been around for about 2 months max I would say. Every option is the same for the regular MVM's except you can only use Debit/Credit/ATM cards to purchase your MetroCard.
Also, I read a funny notice on a 'Service Advisory' board that is used by MTA and it read:
Using debit or credit? Try the little guy.
And four of those 'little-guys' were there at the station right adjacent to the sign.
: )
Railfan Pete.
Does anybody know which tracks from Penn Station lead to the track that goes up north and connects with the Metro North at Spuyten Duyvil? Used by trains e.g. Empire Service, Adirondack, Maple Leaf, Lake Shore Limited?
The trains that usually do this leave from tracks 5 and 6.
Here is a track map of the Penn Station area, I believe that "track 2 main" is the one that goes to the Riverside tunnel and later join MNRR at Spuyten-Duyvil.
Is/was that "diagonal platform" ever used for passenger service?
No, mail and X-Press only.
DOES LIRR ever use Lines 1 and 2? Engineers say they do, but Transit Transit makes it sound like they only use line 3 and 4. They said "two are used exclusively by the Long island Railroad" "The other 2 are shared with Amtrak and NJ Transit". But if line 3 and 4 are LIRR only lines, how is it LIRR trains get stuck behind Amtrak all the time! there has got to be a way that they use Line one and 2
I have been on LIRR trains that have used Line 1 outbound. They sometimes use it during rush hour when there is heavy congestion. At lighter times they stick to 3 and 4.
Amtrak crosses into the LIAR main line at HAROLD interlocking.
They use them every day during the rush hour. Generally speaking, trains which leave from tracks 13-16 will use line 1 during the PM rush. Trains arriving on 13-16 during the AM rush generally come in off of line 2.
Off-peak it is rare to use line 1 or 2 for the LIRR, but it does happen.
When they say lines 3 and 4 are used exclusively by the LIRR, they mean that Amtrak and NJT don't use 3 and 4 -- not that LIRR doesn't use 1 and 2. Even then, they're not correct (but it is very infrequent).
CG
Charles is correct. Off hours you will see a Amtrak on track 13, but rush hour 12 is their highest number.
Mr t__:^)
LIRR uses all 4 lines our of Penn.
Hey neat!!! Where'd you get such a clean map of the station? Do you have any more of the LIRR or NEC?
Man, I didn't realize Penn was so gosh darn sloppy. looks like it could use a real cleanup of the track. Hey, it's almost 100 years old, time to rethink it, in light of how things have changed over the years.
Looks like that was taken from http://www.accesstotheregionscore.com/
Way to go Henry, thanks!!
Wow, that's Double Slip heaven! If you think it's complicated now you should take a look at my 1950's diagram b4 the West Side yard was built.
Here's what I'd do to Penn, in a nutshell:
1) Wipe out Trk 100,90, etc in the northern yard there. It's practically unused, and it would free up useable space.
2) Slide the current LIRR ladder track west a bit, so as to allow and extension/repositioning of the current platforms. This would occupy some of the space created by removing the above.
3) Create 2 short stubs by extending 20 and 21 westward. This would allow the LIRR to stuff either protect power, or any minor work equipment, or whatever, in case it was needed.
4) Cut the wisth on platform 10, use the space to slide Trk 18 northward, and increase the size of the notorious Trk 17 platform. Shift that platform west slightly and straighten it out. Also remove the switch to it that allows acess to Line 2 and 1.
5) Remove the diagonal platform. Buy up the parking lot along W 31st street by the corner of 10th, and excavate the area and use the space to create a new yard for NJT, to feed/store/layover trains. This will reduce the useage of the east river tunnels
6) demolish the 2 buildings on the east side of platform 6, extand that platform east to get rid of the taper at the west end.
7) See if it's possible to shift the southern ladder track west slightly to get rid of the tapers at the west ends of platforms 1-5.
8) In general, try to straighten all the platforms and ensure they'll be able to hold a 12 cars train without any major door gaps, as exist now.
9) Operationally, restrict Amtrak to tracks 10 - 13. there's no reason for them to be platforming trains on 15 durring the rush. (the skeptic in me says that if the Farley project ever opens, the LIRR's going to be bombarded with stuff on tracks 15 and 16)
10) Optimise the station for commuter service, and short dwell intercity trains. Stop laying up the Long Distance Special in the station, and quite the 45 minute load times. Penn's bad enough now, it's only going to get worse as NJT, the LIRR expand service, and MN tries to move in.
If anyone is interested and is a less cautious railfan, We will be venturing into the Riverside "freedom" tunnel on ________, E-mail me if interested.
Looking forward to some photos of the wall paintings. Are you planning on creating one while you're there ?
Mr t__:^)
'Metronet', the name of one of the groups bidding for the JNP sector of London Underground (Jubilee/Northern/Piccadilly) has announced that they intend to run an additional 12 trains over the Piccadilly Line. The 1983 stock (batch 2) could yet see a return to use or perhaps the 1973 driving cars will run with 1983 trailer cars....one worth watching....
:^)
Rob
London UK
I am currently in the Assistant Conductor Training Program. I did not know anyone, I just kept sending my resume, it took a few years, but here I am. For this positon they want customer service experience, money handling, GOOD CREDIT (yes, they do a credit check when they call you). On March 1, 2001 they brought in 1,300 applicants for a basic math and vocabulary test and exploratory interviews, cut the list and brought the surviviors to Jamaica for interviews, applicants getting by that interview where brought to Hillside for Signals and Definitions Overview (You are given 3 weeks to study). Must be able to get an 80% on the 60 definitions in the Rule Book (verbatim) and 100% on a signal test, 79 signals(aspects and indications - verbatim), this was just to get in the training program. We have 27 trainees in the class. This program is 3 months and you have to get 80% or better on 5 tests given (Book of Rules Midterm and Final, Air Brake, Ticketing and PTEP). This is all non-compensated.
Most of the Locomotive Engineers are hired form within the railroad, very few come off the street. I will apply after one year as an A/C and that goes for anyone with LIRR, you need one year in your craft.
If anyome has any questions I will happy to try to answer them.
Could you expamd on what 'ticketing' information you are taught/required to know etc?Thanks
Regards
Rob:^)
London UK
(conductor here in England)
Basically, fair zones, types of tickets that are used, cash reports, cutting tickets on the train and charging proper transportation and when certain schedules are in effect what tickets are valid. Also, how to charge step-up fares. I am currently in the Air Brake portion of training, tickets will be the next subject and it last for three weeks.
Rob,
What railroad are you a Conductor on? What are the crewing requirements like? For example, on the LIRR, all trains (except a handful of listed exceptions) have a crew of 3--engineer, conductor, brakeman with additional "collectors" as needed. The crew travels together for the entire work day. Is that like your situation?
Wow. Four years just from sending a resume everyday? Forget it. Don't have the patience to wait. However, my uncle is a engineer for Metro North, maybe he can give me the hookup.
That might be your best bet. To think about it does not seem like four years. I have been Corporate Legal Assistant for the last 7 years since I have graduated college making pretty decent money, so I was really never thinkng about the job and actually when I got called, the last resume that I sent must have been almost 8 months prior to getting called. It was a pleasant surprise to get called and know I get to do what I have always wanted to do with job security and a great pension.
Thanks for sharing with us, we don't have very many SubTalkers who work for the LIRR, so it will be interesting to hear your prespective on things that come up here from time to time.
I wish you the very best of luck !
Mr t, a colleague from a bus company ... non-operating department.
Just noticed 4 Pelham Redbirds on the Livonia El heading towards Livonia Yard. The consist was ike this:
Redbird-Redbird-WorkTrain-Redbird-Redbird
I have a job out of the yard later on today so Ill see what car #' arrived there if they're still there.
I wonder if that's the new signal dolly train. 8600/1 and 8634/5?
I saw that one yesterday heading downtown on the express lexington, I was waiting for an R142A on at GCT...I was like wtf, and I looked and I thought it was going to the scrapper....Yes those were the numbers.
The motorless signal dolly found new cars to pull it? Are the old R-22 work horses on the way to the scrap heap?
Sounds like it's time for those Redbirds to be given the Maintenance of Way Paint Treatment.
-Stef
Dolly says yes.
Oh yes, I'm sure she does.
-Stef
If this has been mentioned before, please excuse. Anyone who takes the 1,2,3 or 9 from the 34th Street station has to have noticed the horrible stench of rotting garbage there. Depending on the airflow and the tempature, it can literally make a person physically sick. The question is, who can this be reported to, and can anything be done about it? It seems amazing that for the number of passengers going through this station, and the length of time this situation has existed (at least 2-3 months), it has not been fixed. Forget the question of what caused this, like maybe a garbage truck emptying its load down a flight of stairs.
If this has been mentioned before, please excuse. Anyone who takes the 1,2,3 or 9 from the 34th Street station has to have noticed the horrible stench of rotting garbage there. Depending on the airflow and the tempature, it can literally make a person physically sick. The question is, who can this be reported to, and can anything be done about it? It seems amazing that for the number of passengers going through this station, and the length of time this situation has existed (at least 2-3 months), it has not been fixed. Forget the question of what caused this, like maybe a garbage truck emptying its load down a flight of stairs.
There are a number of fast-food places right above the station along the east side of Seventh Avenue. It wouldn't surprise me at all if the smell (I've noticed it too) is related to those places.
I have noticed this too. It literally smells like shit walking on the new uptown 1 concourse to the stairs to the Penn Sta. passageway -- like a hundred horses took a dump there. Hold your breath.
I haven't noticed anything just yet at Penn. Everything seems and smells just fine. It's that maybe if you go back 'around the alley' or at the edge or corner of a station platform you can smell the stench.
Also, at 5 Av. / 53rd St., Queens Plaza, ... they keep a load of garbage bags at the west side (end of platforms), but commuters don't groan or complain about any type of stench.
Railfan Pete.
I haven't noticed anything just yet at Penn. Everything seems and smells just fine. It's that maybe if you go back 'around the alley' or at the edge or corner of a station platform you can smell the stench.
The smells seem to be the worst on the uptown 1/9 platform, presumably because it's directly below the fast food joints. You also won't notice the smells all the time. They seem to come and go, though based on what factors I don't know.
They really need to do something with all the homeless people that stay in the 32nd/8th ave street entrance. It smells really bad there.
It's also evident when you walk by the sidewalk grates in front of the fast food joints on the east side of 7th between 33rd and 34th. It was actually worse last year before Wendys moved out...
www.forgotten-ny.com
The new Wendy's near 34/8th is so much smaller. I liked the old one much better.
"The new Wendy's near 34/8th is so much smaller. I liked the old one much better."
There is a second floor dining room.
Bill "Newkirk"
The new Wendy's near 34/8th is so much smaller. I liked the old one much better.
There is a second floor dining room.
Somehow, the words "dining room" and "Wendy's" just don't go well together!
It still seems smaller.
The problem stems from the fact that all those food places put their leaky, slimy, garbage on top of those grates, when they put it out for collection. Seems to me if the TA powerwashed the area below the grates once a month they problem would go away. This could easily be done by the station cleaning crews while on their regular duties. Oh, and of course bill the guilty establishments for this cleaning.
Peace,
ANDEE
Not to mention the fact that the rodents and the bugs get easy pickings from the trash piles that are generated at these places.
You feed them, you breed them.
"Not to mention the fact that the rodents and the bugs get easy pickings from the trash piles that are generated at these places.
You feed them, you breed them."
And then they die and add to the aroma....
Elias
I think that's been a regular summer occurrence for a few years, but I don't know if it's worse or not now. I used to take the 1/9 uptown from 34th during the PM rush about 4-5 years ago and it always stunk then on a hot day.
CG
On my way home last night, I was talking to a fellow C/R on the 2 and she mentioned the same thing to me as we passed 34St. I know 28St on the uptown 1 stinks as hell as well.
It's the LIRR's performance.
;-D Andrew
That stench is just a sign that heypaul has returned to New York from his sabbatical in Fart Lauderdale....;-)
BMTman
It literally smells like shit walking... (Keystone Pete, message 246062)
I believe heypaul rides a bicycle, so it must be somebody else.
Hmmmm, I thought I told Andee to lay off the Bean Burritos.....;-)
Mmmmmmm....Bean Burritos
Peace,
ANDEE
A) anyone recall the dave letterman skit a few years back - it was either on penn station or port authority at night and what goes on there - the final bit was a scene of a guy carrying bit gallon jugs of liquid around 430 am... which of course was described as "Urine arrives!"
B)i wonder if they got trash tucked behind some door there - recently, at steinway on the g-r, i came across a similar foul smell - coming from a room towards the front of the manhattan bound plat, where workers were dragging trash bags up the steps - there had to be at least 50 of them...
Is that not a fire hazard?
Perhaps the FDNY's got an inspecter that wouldn't be pleased to know if such a thing is right in penn station, if such a room/area may be there.
lord knows they gave my company hell when they came to get someone out of an elevator and found a hallway half filled with boxes. i didn't ask if we got a ticket for that... ...especially considering i called them to fetch the character in the elevator...
C)as my crotchity old boss might say after showing up at the shop the morning after a homeless person camped out front: "We got anything to wash away the bum juice with?"
His handle was subwayrider or subway rider or subway-rider, I don't know. He was very nice, and we were both looking out the front of a redbird 6 *gasp* and the door to the cab was open, and he started talking railfan stuff to him and I chimed in and I asked if he was from Subtalk...Well whatever you all get the point...
My question is, is there only one S from 21st-Queensbridge to B-L? I had to wait an awfully long time to take my first ride on this...Heh
>>My question is, is there only one S from 21st-Queensbridge to B-L? I had to wait an awfully long time to take my first ride on this...Heh<<
60 R-32's are on the line...
There are four 10 car trains in service on the shuttle, running on 10 minute headways during middays and 12 to 15 minute headways during rush hours.
Less headways during the rush?!
Ah...The MTA at it's best...
Two possible reasons:
1 - Increased F service makes all that switching and merging at W4th and 47-50 a tad annoying.
2 - Because they have to use longer trains than anticipated, one set has to be taken OOS during the rush hour to cover another line (R?).
A third possible reason:
One of the purposes of the Queensbridge shuttle is to provide service to 6th Avenue. With improved F rush hour service, less supplemental (shuttle) service is warranted. As a side effect, Queensbridge gets less service as well.
I'll go with reason 1. There are four sets running even during rush hours, they're just spaced farther apart with the worst gap being 17 minutes (an 0802 arrival at Queensbridge followed by an 0819).
About a month ago, in a thread that began when someone announced that the Museum had the line-symbol pins, someone else mentioned that there was a store in the Village that sells t-shirts with the line symbols on them.
The person who posted the info about the store mentioned that, unlike the official shirts, the shirts sold at this store have the line symbol alone, without the phony "destinations" (like "Manhattan to Brooklyn" or whatever) on them. This person also mentioned that they have shirts with the J train symbol.
Where was that store again? I seem to remember Broadway and Astor, but I am not sure.
(Question about searching: I tried to find this info by searching the Subtalk archives, but I was unsuccessful. I looked for for all posts by me for "Several Eons", because I knew that I had contributed to the thread about the pins. However, it only returned posts from the last few weeks, and the post in the thread about the pins was not among them. Is there a problem with the search, or did I not use it correctly?)
Ferdinand Cesarano
The Store is Yellow Rat Bastard on Broadway in the Village!
Regards,
Trevor Logan
www.transitalk.com
Thanks for the name of the store.
Ferdinand Cesarano
Sorry about that, I guess it's not quite intuitive. I'll see if I can't make it more logical. But in the meantime if you want to go way back use the begin/end date pull downs to select the date range (and check the lil box next to the pulldowns).
...use the begin/end date pull downs to select the date range (and check the lil box next to the pulldowns).
Begin/end date? Where is that?
On the search/configure page at http://subtalk.nycsubway.org/cgi-bin/subtalk.cgi?reconfigure, the only date-related function is the one marked "Posted within the last", with the choices in the pull-down menu ranging from "Half a Day" to "Several Eons."
Where can you set begin and end dates?
Ferdinand Cesarano
There is a better store on the corner of Broadway and Astor Place. It is 3 doors south of the Vitamin store, 5 doors down from Astor Haircutters. They have a better selection.
Any news as to when subway service changes will begin taking place for the Stillwell Ave. terminal reconstruction?
Jim D. (RailBus)
I was on a S/B E today at 3pm. At 50th, we waited while a C train proceeded into 42nd. I looked straight down the track leading into the lower level, and noticed that it was lit up. Seriously. And there was also some kind of flashing yellow or orange light right after the switch.
Now, I am sure that is at least one T/O or railfan saw this today.
I wonder what they could have been doing down there.
Interesting, I thought they turned off the 3rd rail power there.
Mr t__:^)
I thought they had the track blocked with a timber.
All I know is that I saw lights on down there a few weeks ago. I was going s/b on an E train and could see straight down. The lights were dim, and I saw no people.
Are you ABSOLUTELY sure? Because I ride on a southbound E a number of times and I see it too, but it just turns out to be a reflection in the midst of the A express track and another track adjacent to it on the same level as the E.
For a first couple of times, (this was around many months ago, I had spotted the lights down there too. And I hoped that it wouldn't be a mirror reflection or just the same level of the 8th Av. platform while the E local track was RISING up to it.
Wondering...
Railfan Pete.
I don't even know of any STAIRCASE at 42nd St. - 8th Av. connecting to the lower level. Hmm.
You can still walk down there from 50th street.
There are staircases there. They just aren't open ones anymore. They're closed up.
Cemented over is more like it. At least one has a hatch which allows limited access.
Q/W and 63rd street:All the responces I got point to 1 thing.The 63rd street tracks that connect Broadway are GARBAGE.If these tracks only use is for a line that may never NEVER get built then they should be demolished and sealed up.I was right.Those tracks have the same use as an apendix.
4,5,6,8,10:These subway lines are needed.The 2nd avenue line will never be built so just give the people the 8 and 10.Local an express.It's like a game show.If the east side loose then give them a constelation prize.And I can't belive that th 8 and 10 isn't needed yet the 2nd avenue line is.Or at least put more 4,5 and 6 trains on the tracks.Where are those R142's.Test them,The MTA should be kissing our asses right now since the olympic commitee is here.
Speaking about the Olympic commitee:I hope you like congesto on the 7 and 4.
9th avenue:I decided to ride the M to 9th avenue and what I saw was unbelievable.As I peeked down to see the abandoned station What I saw was a danger to M,W and residents of Sunset park.As I looked down a support beam wascompletely rusted away and another completely destroyed by weathering and erosion.Even though these tracks(In this case a station) are no longer needed or wanted the MTA must still maintain tese tracks for customer safety(by the way I'm trying to tour the station and I need to know how to get access to the tunnel).
Q/W and 63rd street:All the responces I got point to 1 thing.The 63rd street tracks that connect Broadway are GARBAGE.If these tracks only use is for a line that may never NEVER get built then they should be demolished and sealed up.I was right.Those tracks have the same use as an apendix.
4,5,6,8,10:These subway lines are needed.The 2nd avenue line will never be built so just give the people the 8 and 10.Local an express.It's like a game show.If the east side loose then give them a constelation prize.And I can't belive that th 8 and 10 isn't needed yet the 2nd avenue line is.Or at least put more 4,5 and 6 trains on the tracks.Where are those R142's.Test them,The MTA should be kissing our asses right now since the olympic commitee is here.
Speaking about the Olympic commitee:I hope you like congestion on the 7 and 4.
9th avenue:I decided to ride the M to 9th avenue and what I saw was unbelievable.As I peeked down to see the abandoned station What I saw was a danger to M,W and residents of Sunset park.As I looked down a support beam wascompletely rusted away and another completely destroyed by weathering and erosion.Even though these tracks(In this case a station) are no longer needed or wanted the MTA must still maintain tese tracks for customer safety(by the way I'm trying to tour the station and I need to know how to get access to the tunnel).
OK, the people in Operations Planning would light you up on fire...
About the 8 and the 10, those tracks are already jammed up, people will still complain about not getting enough 8 and 10 trains, along with the 4, 5 and 6. So let's keep the bitching to a minimum. Also, I see you are a tourist, or you aren't a TRUE freakin NYC railfan...THE R142 and the R142A's are appearing every day! Open up your eyes (or get a telescope!).
-Clayton
Clayton.By appearing every day,you mean on the 4 and 5 right?
Or do you just mean on the lines you take,Oh yeah I forgot.You take a lexus to work.
No. I know you withdrew from this topic message, but just to let you know:
The R142A's and R142's are not planned for the #4 and the #5 lines.
The R142's will ONLY be planned to travel full-time on these two lines:
1) #2 line - 7th Av. Express
2) #6 line - Pelham Bay Park (Lexington Av. Local)
The #5 line is an exception to any extra or off-duty trains. The #4 and the #3 lines will KEEP their R62A fleet until past 2020.
Railfan Pete.
Is there any slight chanse that the R142's will go to the 1,3,4 or 7 when the R62's retire?
And does that man the 7 will be getting R62's or the short end of the stick?
The R-62's won't be retired for another 20 years or so. Who knows what will happen then?
As said plenty of times on this site before, when all redbirds are retired, the 3 will have nothing but R142s, and in terms of the 9 car/10 car thing, use search functions. I'd say we talked about it two or three weeks ago. Also, about the R160, is that B-division or A-division material? Because if it is A-division, the R62s may get knocked off early, but I think it is B-division.
The R160s are B-Division cars. I'm sure no R62 or R62A will be bumped off until at least 2020.
Are you making this up?
Others here, who actually have some idea of the TA's plans, have indicated that other lines will get R-142(A)'s. I don't offhand remember which, but I do know that one will be the 3.
And the 4 doesn't run any R-62A's.
To those who may be ignorant and cannot back up on what they're saying:
ARE YOU ABLE TO PROVIDE PROOF THAT THE #4, #5 and the #3 lines WILL RUN FULL-TIME SERVICE 100% on the R142A and R142 FLEET?!
I HAVE GOTTEN IT RIGHT MR. X2000. PROBABLY SOME DOCUMENTS OR WEBSITES THAT CAN HELP YOU TO CORROBORATE ON WHAT YOU'RE SAYING?!
JUST TO LET YOU KNOW, THESE SUBTALKERS AREN'T 100% ACCURATE. ALTHOUGH YOU MAY LEARN SOMETHING FROM THEM, DO NOT GUARANTEE ANYTHING.
And as for David:
The #4 DOES run quite a few R62A's down their track. Spare some time down the Lexington Av. Line and see. .
Such rabid subtalkers....
Railfan Pete.
Under nornal circunstances, the #4 does not run R-62As. If you doubt what I am saying please re-read the first sentence. All #4 trains are the responsibility of Jerome maintenance Shop. There are no R-62As assigned to the jerome Fleet. Trust me on this. Riding the line in your spare time will not change this fact...
IF YOU'RE SKEPTICAL IN YOUR DECISION, WHY DON'T YOU PROVIDE ME SOME DOCUMENTARIES AND SOME WEBSITES TO STATE THAT THIS IS TRUE? WHY DON'T YOU CONTACT THE MTA's T/A's FOR THE REAL FACTS? (I HAVE NO DOUBT AS TO THE JEROME SHOP) IF YOU HAVE REAL SPARE TIME, WHY DON'T YOU RECORD THE NUMBER OF REDBIRDS AND R62A's PASSED IN THE SAME STATION IN AN ENTIRE 24-HOUR PERIOD?! SPELL CORRECTLY TOO FOR YOUR POSTINGS SAKE, TRAIN DUDE
Railfan Pete.
The nice thing, railfan pete, is that i don't have to contact the MTA or the TA to get my facts.
Lots of people seem to miss your frequent posts.
-Hank
Look in the archives. I'll take the word of those inside the TA over yours. I don't remember what the arrangement on the 4 and 5 will be, but the 3, according to current plans, will run all R-142's. (I remember this specifically because it prompted me to ask how the 3 could run ten-car trainsets, a question which quickly became very popular.) This discussion took place, oh, maybe three or four weeks ago.
Are you sure it's the 4 you're watching? Barring an occasional loaner from another line, the 4 runs R-62's and Redbirds. The 4, in fact, runs all of the TA's R-62's. It doesn't run a single R-62A.
There's nothing wrong with being unsure of the facts, but there's no need to mislead others.
R62As don't run on the 4 line. R62s do. Externally they look the same. The differences are in the builders (R62 - Kawasaki; R62A - Bombardier), the car numbers (R62 - 1301-1625, with a few cars lost in two major accidents; R62A - 1651-2475) and much of the mechanical components.
You're correct about the 4. It won't operate entirely with R142s or R142As. Currently the 4 operates mostly with R62s, but also runs with R33 Redbirds because there are not enough R62s to cover the whole rush-hour needs of the 4 line. But sometime next year, those R33s will most likely be retired. Something has to replace them or the 4 line will have a severe car shortage during rush hours. It is very likely that they will be R142s or R142As from the option orders. However, the 4 will continue to operate mostly with R62s.
The 5 is second in line to get Bombardier R142s. Once the 2 is fully eqipped with R142s (about 380 cars or so), the 5 will begin getting R142s. Most likely, the 2 and 5 will use up the whole 680-car R142 order. There is a 230-car option order for addtional R142s from Bombardier. I don't know exactly when those will arrive, probably some time after the first 680 do. Where they will go is not yet known, but it will likely be the 3 or 4 line.
Then there's the Kawasaki R142A. The first 400 of these are entering service now. Most of these will be assigned to the 6. I don't think the 6 will require all 400 cars, so it's possible that once the 6 recives enough R142As to cover the whole line during rush hours, another line (the 3 or the 4) may get the remaining cars. But there's also an option order for about 180 additional R142As. Those will definitely go to a different line, because by then the 6 will already be running entirely with R142As. Where they will go is not known yet, but again it will likely be the 3 or 4 line. The 7 is supposed to be getting R62As sometime soon (it should have gotten them years ago) and the 1 is unlikely to get any R142s or R142As because it has the newest of the R62As (2161-2475, I think). But nothing is written in stone - yet.
The 1 will also not be getting 142/as because of door alignment problems at South Ferry.
Good point, I didn't even know about door alignment problems at South Ferry. I always learn something new!
The door arrangement on the 142s does preclude their operation to South Ferry at this time. It does not preclude anof IRT car prior to the R62/62A.
-Hank
Three reasons why I believe you're wrong:
1. The R-142s have wider doors than the R-62s. Would a wider door fully line up? Remember: The average NYCT passenger has the IQ of a pickle and will fall into any gap.
2. The R-142 cab cars have different door alignments than the blind motor cars. Now, do you think that the same GF alignment designed to fit R-62As with even door spacings would also accomodate this?
3. Last weekend, there was a G.O. supposedly sending 5s to run on the 1 to South Ferry, the flyer clearly indicated it was to be in service. What happened: The trains either went OOS at Chambers or ran nonstop to Bowling Green. I didn't see one train stop at SF.
Please re-read my post. As for what they were doing with the 5, I haven't the foggiest. Maybe they were trying to stop confusing passengers. I've taken 2 trains that do that detour, but they run non-stop Chambers to Wall, and stop at Bowling Green southbound only.
-Hank
The 5 trains all seemed to be empty (except for the occasional resident) through South Ferry, at least while I was standing there (2:00-2:30 or so Sunday afternoon).
The same GO is taking place again next weekend, all weekend this time. Same flyers. We'll see what actually happens.
AGAIN!
The Bombardier R-142 Primary Order Fleet is slated for (2) and (5) Service with left overs to the (4)
The Kawasaki R-142A Primary Order Fleet is slated for (6) Service
The R-142/R-142A Option Order Fleet is slated for the (3) Line again with left overs to the (4)!
ALL Pelham R-62As are heading to Corona, and eventually the Livonia R-62As will join them!
GET IT RIGHT!!!!!!!!!!!
Regards,
Trevor Logan
www.transitalk.com
Thank you so much on the on the R-142's on the (4). My mom one time ask me if I know if the (4) was going to run the NEW Subway cars and I was not too shure if there where to run on the (4).
And I think about 1 more 10 Car set of R-142A's are to put in service on the (6) everyday. Am I right?
Oh, I thought the 4 was going to have to wait for the option orders before it could get any R142/142As. I guess there will be enough from the original 680 R142s to fully equip the 2 and 5 lines and have some cars left over for the 4. I learn something new every time I visit Subtalk!
>>Q/W and 63rd street:All the responces I got point to 1 thing.The 63rd street tracks that connect Broadway are GARBAGE.If these tracks only use is for a line that may never NEVER get built then they should be demolished and sealed up.I was right.Those tracks have the same use as an apendix.<<
The tracks are not total garbage as you suggest:
1.Re-routes. Ever seen the R run through there?
2. 2nd av. When the first portion is built, it will run from 125th to 63rd. Trains will be routed from there through broadway. Reason for that is that a lot of East Side riders get off at 14th st. Lo and behold, the Broadway is on the east side there!!
The TA doesn't seal up tracks that can be used. Stop being incompetent.
>>4,5,6,8,10:These subway lines are needed.The 2nd avenue line will never be built so just give the people the 8 and 10.Local an express.It's like a game show.If the east side loose then give them a constelation prize.And I can't belive that th 8 and 10 isn't needed yet the 2nd avenue line is.Or at least put more 4,5 and 6 trains on the tracks.Where are those R142's.Test them,The MTA should be kissing our asses right now since the olympic commitee is here.<<
The 4,5,6,8,10 presents a problem. the 6 is scheduled to come every 3 minutes. Scheduling another train to come every 3 mins would be murder. Same on the express tracks. So, if you put this proposed train service, you end up with slow trains. Better idea: expand 4,5 service.
The second av subway will be built. One day...
There are over 100 R-142/A in service. You obviously haven't rode any trains recently.
>>9th avenue:I decided to ride the M to 9th avenue and what I saw was unbelievable.As I peeked down to see the abandoned station What I saw was a danger to M,W and residents of Sunset park.As I looked down a support beam wascompletely rusted away and another completely destroyed by weathering and erosion.Even though these tracks(In this case a station) are no longer needed or wanted the MTA must still maintain tese tracks for customer safety(by the way I'm trying to tour the station and I need to know how to get access to the tunnel).<<
Are you a total idiot? I'm serious, does your brain function at all?
1. The people aren't going down there. So, there is no customer safety involved in this matter. How does this even relate to safety?!? No one should be going down there.
2. You yourself point out that there's rust and decay down there and then ask how to get down there. I'm not sure what to say about that.
start your tour on the siding on 38th street, where 4 Qcars are stored (old abandoned cars) walk towards 9th ave tracks on the W you cansee them straight ahead, make a 360 turn going back into the tunnel at 36th street, you will see the apporach
My observing of this site tells me there's well over 100 R142s in service, there are 13 trains on the 2 and I think just as much or more on the 6. You just have to be patient and let a train go maybe for one. If you travel during rush hour and get on whatever you see on whatever route you see, it is a slim chance you'll get an R142. Travel on a free weekend, and wait on the 2 line especially, you shouldn't have to wait more than 3 #2 trains max for an R142.
The Broadway-63rd tracks aren't being used currently because there's no need to double Queensbridge service by sending both Q's there and it's impossible to terminate one Q at 57th while the other goes through. They're still used for weekend GO's and for occasional reroutes.
The 8 and 10 on the fantasy map are just new names for existing routes (IIRC -- I'm not looking at the map -- the 6 express and one of the 5 branches). The Lex tracks are near capacity already.
How can you tell the condition of a support beam by peering down a staircase? Surface rust is not a danger unless it's allowed to penetrate.
Can someone tell me what a constelation prize is?
Also, I need to know if the Y and * trains should exist. Instructions on how to fit 6 cars in a 2 car garage would also be appreciated.
-Hank
The constelation prize could be a Milky Way Bar. Hmmmmmmm, wait. The Milky Way is a galaxy - not a constelation. Perhaps the constelation prize is an old rusting aircraft.
I don't think so. Lockheed made them out of aluminum, IIRC.
-Hank
Hmmmmmmmmm - so it's back to the drawing board?
No. a constelation prize is the ceiling of Grand Central.8-)
Peace,
ANDEE
That should be the Grand constelation prize
No it's a Lockheed constelation.
Would an Orion bus do for a constelation prize?
-Robert King
I put some recent photos of the Rancocas Creek light rail bridge online. The bridge fell into the crick (local pronunciation) in April and was put in place last night.
bridge pics
What does SNJLRTS stand for? I know that's a deliberated acronym.
It's something like Southern New Jersey Light Rail Transit System.
Great pics Bob! You should be a photographer!
Did you see Y110 or Y131 there?
No.
While I haven't riden the M during the midday hours, I have noticed that most Chinese people heading to the Bowery do not use the M from Brooklyn, but they ride the J or M from Canal St to the Bowery, leading me to believe they are using the W/Q/Q<> lines over the bridge. Does anyone have actual knowledge of this trend?
I'm not sure about the numbers but there were posts here several months ago saying that's what was probably going to happen. Why stop at Lawrence, Court, Broad, Fulton and Chambers before you get to Canal when you can just take the W (or Q) straight from DeKalb to Canal and change trains, with the J and Z both options there along with the M train.
The N and R riders are starting to realize the same thing...they've been packing my W's all this week for the ride from Canal to 36th in Brooklyn. The combination of that, and the signal problems last night, caused an interesting but massively inconvienient sight - the entire population of a W train that had been re-routed to the Brighton tracks (with no warning at DeKalb) emptying out and walking down the long hallway to Pacific...
At least there is a transfer there now. Back before the mid-1970s, a shift like that probably would have caused a riot on the train, since the tunnel between the IRT and the B/R/N was outside the fare control zone (though they could have just reversed direction at Atlantic and gone back to DeKalb, I guess).
The M Service is threatening to cost the TA zillions.
The "community" is demanding that the mid-day M be extended past 9th Avenue, down to Bay Parkway. Well, the signals on the West End line are being replaced. And they can't work at night because of the "residential area" rule. So if the "community" get's their way, the Signal job is shot, at a cost of millions and millions.
Add that to the millions the politicians have already told the TA to spend on services that don't even solve the problem. And the millions to run the shuttle to a Grand Street station nobody uses.
Then think about the Rutgers to DeKalb connection the MTA wanted to do, but the politicians weren't interested in. It would have allowed the B train to run through the Rutgers tunnel, stopping at Delancy Street a couple of blocks from Grand, among other things. So, Ron in Bayside, who is to blame here -- the MTA bureaucrats or the freakin politicians?
How 'bout that useless Grand-DeKalb shuttle bus? How much is that costing the MTA?
The freaking politicians definitely are to blame! New York State and City politicians SUCK! They're the ones who screwed up the Manhattan Bridge! They're the ones who screw everything up in this city! You're right Larry, I've seen that Grand Street Shuttle. Nobody's using it! Those R46 cars could maybe run elsewhere instead on a useless two-stop shuttle with very low ridership. Rutgers-DeKalb could have helped riders immensely. It won't solve all of the bridge's problems, but at least one Sixth Avenue service could have made it into Brooklyn with the connection. But nooooooooo, the New York bloodsuckers, I mean politicians, just won't hear of it! And now those damn bloodsuckers want to force the MTA to extend midday M service to Bay Parkway forcing them to cancel a signal project.
Rutgers-DeKalb is one connection that could ease the problems of the Manhattan Bridge. I'm actualy surprised and happy to hear that the MTA actually wanted to do it. I gotta admit, the MTA really is doing everything it can to provide good (not great) service between southern Brooklyn and Manhattan while also trying to please a bunch of elected jerks who pretend to represent "the people's needs," but in reality they only care about themselves. They f---ed up the bridge and now they need a scapegoat to take the blame. And now they're squandering a golden opportunity to partially save 6th Ave Express service to southern Brooklyn by not allowing the MTA to undertake Rutgers-DeKalb. Some representation of the community that is. It sounds to me like they're screwing the community.
Well, you've got your community activits -- they've got to complain about something, and (assuming they weren't protesting just to get their names on TV and in the papers) in the case of the Manny B, they assumed that the riders from South Brooklyn were too stupid to figure out to:
1. Take the Q/W to Canal Street;
2. Get off;
3. Walk up the rear stairway;
4. Take the next train that comes one stop to the Bowery;
5. Repeat in opposite direction that evening.
6. Continue repeating for next 3 1/2 years.
So as a result, we have extended M service, which nobody uses because unless walking is a serious problem, noone wants to go on that wayward route through Montague Street if they can help it. And we have the shuttle bus, which I would like to see someone at the Post or News take a ride on just to see how many people are actually using it.
A double boondoggle, and I really can't blame the MTA for this because if they didn't give in they would have been villified as "cold" and "hartless" and "insensative" to the needs of people working in the Grand Street area (SOP for the shrillest of the community activists, no matter what the issue). As for the Rutgers tunnel, the only chance I see in the future of getting it built is if the Manny B "fix" doesn't work, and as soon as that's announced, the MTA jumps right into the effort to get the connection built. That way it might have enough momentum to defeat the efforts of the NIMBYs in the DUMBO-Navy Yard area.
Extended M servgice may not be economical, but I wopn't complain about it, just remembering every time i'm stuck in lower manhattan late in the evening and I get to the M station to get home to the West End right as the token clerk tells me they're not running to Brooklyn any more for the day, and I have to turn around and head halfway to midtown just to pick up the B, or else find an IRT somewhere that will get me to Pacific/Atlantic
"And the millions to run the shuttle to a Grand Street station nobody uses."
Believe it or not, I saw a lot of people using the shuttle when I was at Broadway Lafayette.
N/W Broadway Lines
"Then think about the Rutgers to DeKalb connection the MTA wanted to do, but the politicians weren't interested in. It would have allowed the B train to run through the Rutgers tunnel, stopping at Delancy Street a couple of blocks from Grand, among other things. So, Ron in Bayside, who is to blame here -- the MTA bureaucrats or the freakin politicians?"
Why the B and not the D line?
N/W Broadway Lines
It could be either the B or the D. Not both because then you would have to reduce service on the B, D and F trains in rush hours to accomodate all of them in the Rutgers tunnel.
If the B were to be routed through Rutgers, that would allow people living in the Grand Street area to get directly to the West End line communities from a closer station, Essex-Delancy. That would come in handy if the bridge is shut down (for any reason). Bowery is still closer to Grand Street than Delancy is, but Delancy is closer than Canal. On the Hagstrom map, it appears that the East Broadway station is also closer to Grand Street than Canal.
If the D were to be routed through Rutgers, you would lose direct Grand Street-West End service (the cause of all the complaint) if the bridge is shut down. Where the conncetion would be made, I don't know. But if it's after the point where the B joins the N (to bypass DeKalb) and the D joins the Q (to head down the Brighton line) then it would be easier to connect the D into the Rutgers tunnel because the bypass tracks (B and N trains) are the center tracks and it would be harder to make a conncetion into those tracks. The Brighton tracks are the outside tracks and connection would be easier made from them.
The M Service is threatening to cost the TA zillions.
The TA announced that the cost for the all day M service and the night shuttle bus would be $2 million annually. My own calculations, based on published operating costs for revenue-car-miles, indicated that the added service would cost $7.3 million. Which is it?
Be careful with the term 'Chinese'. To be PC in this overly PC obsessed world, use the term 'Asian'. I know it's rediculous but down here in GA if you want to get flogged you call a 'black' person 'colored'.
""Be careful with the term 'Chinese'. To be PC in this overly PC obsessed world, use the term 'Asian'. I know it's rediculous but down here in GA if you want to get flogged you call a 'black' person 'colored'.""
This was an accurate use of the word Chinese, since that is the major ethnic group of people living in Chinatown. Most other Asian peoples have neighborhoods elsewhere in the city.
And to call an African american person "colored" isn't just un-PC, it's downright insulting.
Agreed!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
No, it's fine to call someone Chinese, or Korean or Japanese or Vietnamese etc. I think it's Oriental that some people find objectionable and has been replaced by Asian.
Gimme a break. The term "Chinese" is a statement of nationality and I would laugh in the face of anyone who would be offended by it.
I noticed that the R40-R46 cars in the subways have headlights and tailights beside eachother like on commuter RR's. Why did NYCTA go back to traditionally stacked headlights/tailights in the newer cars such as the R68s?
I like the tailight/headlight in a row like on the R40,R42,44, and 46 models, they look more like RR trains.
I have noticed that also with the R-40/42/44/46 subway cars. The R-143 will have a similar congifuration with the headlights and taillights.
#3 West End Jeff, formerly BMTJeff
Yeah I always like the arrangement of the lights on the R-40 thru R-46 cars also. Imagine my disappointment when the R-62's arrived with this newfangled arrangement.
Wayne
Probably just a design issue. Why did Chrysler in the mid-1980s use stacked headlights on its minivans, side-by-side lights on its higher-end sedans, and only two headlights on its lower-end models?
I've been spending a few days working with Signal Computer Consultant's Train Dispatcher and Track Builder programs.
They are two very cool games / tools!!
I have decided for my first project to work on something big...
tada! DeKalb Avenue.
For those of you with the latest Train Dispatcher program, I'd like to invite you to check out how the entire layout looks. Just send me a PRIVATE e-mail.
This is just for you to see how everything works. There are no trains to control - yet.
Eventually I plan to attempt to put together a three hour trial run (7-10 AM) so everyone can enjoy!
So again if you are interested in checking out what the layout looks like, send an e-mail to jrhorse98@aol.com I'll even give you progress reports and let you know when the timetables are completed.
I've seen Pelham pkwy on the 5,and it looks really delapidated.The wall(not on the platform)looks like it's growing abspestos like the wals at 9th avenue(the tunnel platform which by the way really needs a serious spruce up).
If any words are mispelled thats because my keyboard is broken.
I've seen Pelham pkwy on the 5,and it looks really delapidated.The wall(not on the platform)looks like it's growing abspestos like the wals at 9th avenue(the tunnel platform which by the way really needs a serious spruce up).
If any words are mispelled thats because my keyboard is broken.
By he way I am widthdrawing My responce to Why and Why not.
Well, since I've lived directly across the street from Pelham Parkway station my entire life, I feel obligated to comment on my home station.
I cretainly agree that it needs some sprucing up. But much like the entire system itself, it's better than it once was. I can remember the days when the stationhouse was graffiti-covered, like the trains that ran through it. Thanks to the commitment of folks in the community, the graffiti war was eventually won. The shrubbery outside the station was weedy and poorly kept.....now the parks department have done away with the ugly bushes and have kept the grass well-cut and have even tried to introduce some flowers.
As for the interior, there is definitely no shortage of peeling paint. The place certainly does show its age. The cement stairways are not particularly pleasant after some rain. But the place is not the worst I've seen. Honestly, what has always bothered me the most is the way the garbage piles up in the unused express trackways (now, of course only the n/b trackway is unused since the reconnection of the s/b express for R-142 testing). Again, not a unique problem to this station, but probably exacerbated by the unused and unmaintained trackway.
Could it use a facelift though? Certainly. Will it get one soon? I won't hold my breath.....PP was one of the last stations to get Metrocard (although I was pleasantly surprised about how fast a MVM appeared). That being said, if they do someday give the place a renovation, I do hope they keep the old-fashioned incoming train indicatior with the light bulbs and the "To City" designation. It's one of those neat little touches that gives the place a feeling of uniqueness.
Asbestos doesn't grow.
A couple of weeks ago, I left my hometown with my youth group to Hammond for a Youth Conference. I enjoyed it and it changed my life. What I've noticed between the times is that I've been passing through MANY railroad tracks in that area.
We passed one set of two tracks, and another set of five tracks down the same street! I also saw a freight rail yard with an old, squiggly-type metal building. There are two railroads that are active that run right in front of the church that I went to. The honk of the horn was fantastic and the freight was from double-stacked containers to manufacturing goods and truck trailers. There were two, handsomely painted black 'NS' (Norfolk Southern) locomotives trundling down the tracks, but I noticed an odd thing.
I saw two (maybe three) instances where a freight train had exactly 46 cars. (At night) If anyone knows, do trains out here travel with a special type of order? Any info. I might want to know?
I tried to keep my excitement down because of the Youth Conference, but I enjoyed it. Then I heard from my Youth Pastor that every railroad that crosses the United States goes through Hammond. (Except ones that cross extremely south of the U.S.) What an experience.
Answers will be greatly appreciated.
Railfan Pete.
The South Shore line goes through Hammond as well.
There used to be restaurant by all the tracks that was called
Phil Shmidt's. You could eat there and watch the trains. I believe
the New York Central and Pennsylvania railroads ran parallel to each
other, of course you could tell which was which by the position light
signals on the Pennsy tracks.
I remember when I was a kid, there was a train going by every few
minutes. This was in the mid 60's...
i have programmed my computer to play the sounds of trains whenever people come online as an alert. When i think about it the announcements sound almost alike. they both tell where the train is stopping, and where its going. One announcement i have is this
"this station is, hunterspoint avenue, this is the train to Port Jefferson. "The next station is Jamaica"
then there is a R142A announcement.
"This station is 51st street" "Transfer is available to the E, and F Trains". Doors open
"This is a Manhattan bound 6 train". "The next stop is 59th street"
"Stand clear of the closing doors please"
thats hott
also if any subtalkers wanna im me, my screennames are
A 8AV FULTON EXP
E JAMAICA CENTER
F TRAIN 5656
E JAMAICA CENTER
SUBTALK NEWS
BACK TO YOU IN THE STUDIO
And how did you do this?
I got some subway sounds from a website. i forgot the website, but i saved some sounds to disk. i then opened aol instant messenger, changed the alert sounds to what i had in my documents. the sounds where saved on the computer hard drive. then it does it when i want it too.
Have you started sending your resume for the LIRR yet?????
What does a WD signal look like and what are the available aspects?
A WD looks like a simple solid white bullet - type light, which is wayside of the track. It is used mainly as a timer for switching maneuvers over very sharp curves. There are three different indications for it: Off, meaning that it is deactivated and not in use; and flashing and solid, meaning that it is activated for the switching procedure. (If anyone cares to correct me, go right ahead.)
It is usually timed for a low speed, such as 5 MPH (though many are rigged for speeds of up to 25 MPH.) When activated, a T/O must approach it at or below the indicated speed. Failure to do so will result in the train being put BIE at the next automatic/home signal. How will a T/O know that he/she is at or below the indicated speed? Well, the flashing indication means that he/she is above the indicated speed. The solid indication means that he/she is at or below the indicated speed.
I bet you're probably asking yourself why couldn't the TA put in regular timers that are rigged for the switch. Well, on some lines with older signals, such as the Upper Bway - 7th Av and the lower Lex, those signals still are there. With resignalling, however, they'll probably be gotten rid of in favor of the newer WDs. Why not make the same types of signals with the newer systems? They may cost too much, in the TA's eyes.
The advantage of the wheel detector system is that it overlays
on the existing signals. You'll note that the indication given
by a WD signal is not in any way tied to the other wayside signals.
These little buggers work through a pair of inductive pickups
spaced a short and precise distance apart. They detect when a wheel
passes over them and measure the time between the first and the
second detectors going off. In order to cut in the conventional
timers (GT, DT, ST or lunars) one has to add track circuits,
insulated joints, relays, line wires, etc. The WD also has the
advantage of strict speed control throughout the entire control
limit, as opposed to the older timers which can be fudged. This
is good from a signal engineer's standpoint but bad for operations.
Because the WD signals are so unforgiving, and because the TA
management in RTO is very punitive, most train operators go
through WD territory at about 50% of the posted speed.
> (GT, DT, ST or lunars)
What is DT?
- Lyle Goldman
GT=Grade Time (though seemingly not always on a grade)
DT=Diverging Time (usually going over a switch)
ST=Station Time (approaching a station -- acts as a time signal only if a train is in the station or just leaving it)
David
Could somebody please explain Diverging Time to me? That term is not used in the signals guide on the website.
- Lyle Goldman
D (not DT) is part of an automatic signal governed by rule #62G. When illuminated it means, "Approach at allowable speed. Be prepared for a diverging route at the end of the block."
In other words, when the associated switch is set for a diverging route, the D will illuminate. This is usually one or two automatic signals in advance of the home signal that protects th switch. In addition you will see a fixed signal (yellow sign) that says "DT" with the allowable speed. That sign will be in advance of the actual timer.
But isn't that just a special type of Grade Time (GT) aspect? That aspect is listed in the signals guide, but under Grade Time. The term "Diverging Time" or "DT" is not mentioned there.
- Lyle Goldman
It is very similar to a Grade Timer, the difference being that
a Diverging Timer is only activated when the switch it protects
is set for the diverging move.
You'll note that the indication given by a WD signal is not in any way tied to the other wayside signals.
This is absolutely correct - and one of the glaring errors found in the Dell Comics version posted by 137th St.
"These little buggers work through a pair of inductive pickups
spaced a short and precise distance apart."
This is why the wheel detector system is not working and is being dis-used.
Thoughts: (they flicker through occaisonally)
1) I can't think of another situation where the flashing aspect is less permissive than the static one. (Protection against your flasher packing up)
2) The "blind stops" on the WB bridge; are they driven off the WD's? If so, I haven't seen a lot of other "blind stops" elswhere on the system. It seems like they'd be adjacent to WD signal heads....
3) Although the WD aspects are run independenly, I assume that normal cross-checks between "timers"(or "speed checkers") and homes are in effect. example: At (IND)Canal on A4, I bet the home won't clear for a move to A2 unless the WD is PROVEN to be lit and "ready."
A flashing green on NORAC railroads indicated Cab Speed and this has the possibility to be less than Clear.
Normally a flashing aspect must be more permissive than the same
aspect solid, as you said, in case the flasher fails lit solid.
WD signal heads convey no authority over train movements. They are
really more of a visual alarm.
Blind stops were commonplace years ago. They were essentially
a single-shot timer with no associated signal head.
You'd think some sort of check circuit was present somewhere in
the home relay network, but I'm not sure that's the case.
Interesting. Is this a failure of the sensors, failure to tune the pickups (to detect wheel vs no wheel) or some other cause?
Is the TA going to give up, or are people looking at other technologies (optical pickup etc)?
Thanks,
John
The problem is neither fish nor fowl, so to speak. I took a course in signal familiarization a few weeks ago and this was their explanation:
The wheel detector precisely measures the speed of the train by measuring the time between pairs of axles passing the sensors. This works out well because the distance between axles on an IRT truck is 6' 10" and the distance between axles on a BMT/IRT truck is also 6' 10". Hence, the speed of either can accurately be measured by the Wheel Detector logic. The problem is while NYCT diesel loco trucks also have 82" axle centers, most of the work fleet does not. The common work equipment truck has 5' 6" axle centers. This is roughly a 19% variation that fools the wheel detector logic into thinking that work trains are moving faster than they actually are. More confusing is the fact that if the loco is in the lead, the operator will get a solid indication but when a flat or hopper cross the sensor, the WD senses a sudden speed increase and trips the train. This is resulting in service delays while the crew deals with the BIE. The simple thing would be to slow the work-trains over WD territory but the inaccuracy inherrent in the system has called the entire system into question.
That's also how EZPass measures your speed through the toll booth. Instead of couting the axles on the train, they count your car using two inductive loops. The loops are a known distance apart, the elapsed time is computed into a speed and matched to the transponder.
-Hank
Thank you for a clear explanation of the instrumentation principles used for the speed sensor. It would appear that in measuring the time to travel over a calibrated distance that the distance wasn't quite calibrated. It's reassuring to know that fundamental instrumentation principles that apply in the rest of the world also apply within the context of railroading applications. Several other posters had strongly hinted that technologies and engineering principles that have proved themselves for decades would not work within the railroading context. It's nice to know that two plus two still equals four within the TA's domain.
As another poster noted the normal technique is to use two pickups that are embedded in the ground and are separated by a calibrated distance. Such a system would be insensitive to equipment variation. BTW, one would assume that the first WD installation underwent extensive testing with all available equipment. Those acceptance tests should make for amusing reading.
There is another technology that is commonly used for measuring speed - doppler. I could see why designers blinded by vital relay technology might find it difficult to utilize such sensors. Such sensors have worked quite reliably in other contexts.
"BTW, one would assume that the first WD installation underwent extensive testing with all available equipment. "
Yes one would assume!
And I agree about doppler> We use it for speed indication on all trains but R-46 and R-68. I don't know why it was not used in the WD application.
Well once the system gets coded track circuts they won't need timers any more.
Why is MoW equipment trippable?
I think we should wait until Mr.137th St answers this one. I'm still trying to find a list of my friends for you.
By the way - I didn't say the engineer was wrong about the 930 feet/sec. His answer was likely a textbook answer. What I said was that YOU misunderstood what he said and YOU posted an incorrect interpretation of what he said. But if it's any consolation, I too have over 20 years in the business.
What bussiness? I don't remember you working for any REAL Railroad. I don't remember you having any FRA certifacation.
I posted a quote of his exact words. What was there to misunderstand?
So let me get this straight - on one hand we have a wannabe who has no credentials, alleging that he is quoting an alleged engineer who allegedly has 20 years on the job. You have no proof that you spoke to an engineer. You have no proof that he said what you allege that he said and you offer no proof that he had 20 years on the job.
On the other hand, I have (thanks to a fellow subtalker) an airbrake manual that covers this exact subject and clarifies your misunderstanding of the alleged statement by the alleged engineer. I also have a reasonably comprehensive knowledge of airbrake, both freight and MU. So now you are going to get pissy and question my credientials? Regardless of what my railroad credentials are - they easily exceed any you will ever have.
Since I don't work for a "real" railroad, I will not comment on that subject further other than to say you are wrong once again. Revel in your ignorance.
You have no proof that you spoke to an engineer. You have no proof that he said what you allege that he said and you offer no proof that he had 20 years on the job.
Actually I do have proof. He is the head of his local BLE chapter and I was quoting from a BLE newsletter article you can find online. Don't believe me? It's right here http://www.ble.org/pr/newsletter/0400newsletter/story14.html
Look about 9 paraghaphs down. That was the quote I posted and all I got from you were a bunch of guff about how wrong it was.
See what happens when you make assumptions?
On the other hand, I have (thanks to a fellow subtalker) an airbrake manual that covers this exact subject and clarifies your misunderstanding of the alleged statement by the alleged engineer. I also have a reasonably comprehensive knowledge of airbrake, both freight and MU.
Then why did you never quote from it? Why did you never post the "REAL" rate of brake application? If you have it right with you how hard could it be? PROVE me wrong. PLEASE! Telling me that I am wrong w/o any other explanation is not proof.
Regardless of what my railroad credentials are - they easily exceed any you will ever have.
I don't pretend to know more about trains than you do, but in this case I had a source and when challenged I clearly posted my source. I'd bank my source knows as much or more about train operations that you do.
Since I don't work for a "real" railroad, I will not comment on that subject further other than to say you are wrong once again. Revel in your ignorance.
Are you Federally certified?
Actually I do have proof!
Look, mike, I am not going to get into a pissing contest over technicalities. So you read something and mis-interpretted it. That's a far cry from you saying that an engineer with 20 years told you. You were wrong in the way you interpretted the information and you misrepresented how you got it. Why not let it go at that?
I have a question. Do work hoppers or flats have trippers, or just the diesel? If the WD sensors feel the work train is folowing, and the hoppers/flats don't have trippers, does the first WD sensor pass the speed info to the following WD's, which then trip the diesel?
All NYCT work equipment have tripcocks. What is suprising to me is that the Wheel Detector does not have a retention circuit like the conventional signal. This prevents the stop arm from coming up as long as the block is shunted.
"What is suprising to me is that the Wheel Detector does not have a retention circuit like the conventional signal. This prevents the stop arm from coming up as long as the block is shunted. "
Oh. I thought *that* was the whole theory behind the WD system. To keep a train at a certain speed the whole time it was passing over the detector. If any wheelset passing over it is above speed up jumps that little devil and says "Sorry Charlie, your'e out of service"
Elias
I suppose that in that context, you are correct
Ya know? The more I listen to this thing about WD's, the more I wonder why the TA doesn't just adopt the old "upstate solution?" Put guys with 9 millimeter sidearms in the tunnels and just SHOOT the damned motorman. :)
There's no retaining circuit because no track circuits are used.
That is one of the operational nightmares of the WD signals.
With any other form of wayside speed control, you know _where_
you are going to be tripped, as opposed to at what speeed. There
is no guesswork. You can see the arm, and when it goes down, you
don't have to worry about it again.
The problem is neither fish nor fowl, so to speak. I took a course in signal familiarization a few weeks ago and this was their explanation:
The wheel detector precisely measures the speed of the train by measuring the time between pairs of axles passing the sensors. This works out well because the distance between axles on an IRT truck is 6' 10" and the distance between axles on a BMT/IND truck is also 6' 10". Hence, the speed of either can accurately be measured by the Wheel Detector logic. The problem is while NYCT diesel loco trucks also have 82" axle centers, most of the work fleet does not. The common work equipment truck has 5' 6" axle centers. This is roughly a 19% variation that fools the wheel detector logic into thinking that work trains are moving faster than they actually are. More confusing is the fact that if the loco is in the lead, the operator will get a solid indication but when a flat or hopper cross the sensor, the WD senses a sudden speed increase and trips the train. This is resulting in service delays while the crew deals with the BIE. The simple thing would be to slow the work-trains over WD territory but the inaccuracy inherrent in the system has called the entire system into question.
I know this is going to come off completely off base, but to someone like myself, the whole concept of WD's is an affront to professionalism and the expectations thereof. Either a T/O is a professional, who knows and observes the rules, or they are NOT a professional and should be removed from the road. Anyone who cannot follow the direction of wayside signal, either automatic or fixed, has no business being in a cab in the FIRST PLACE.
So in a precarious way, I'm actually glad to hear this. The existence of those damned things tells me only that school car isn't long enough to qualify folks for the road and that perhaps the TA is scraping the barrel a bit too deep if such is truly needed. You've got enough to worry about out there without having to shave hairs over whether you're at 14.8 or 16 when the railroad once ran perfectly safe when you'd hit 20 since you had to determine speed once upon a time by eyeball and not a speedo.
In a cursory look back over the accidents that occurred over the last 30 years since I left the system, most have been the result of direct human error - impaired individuals who shouldn't have been on the road in the first place or people that were obviously way past their need of sleep.
Have things really changed so much that a TMO or dispatcher couldn't question a crew's fitness for duty in the office before they boarded a train and sent them to see the company doctor on a basis of suspicion or erratic behavior? Have the disciplinaries and chain of command fallen apart so?
Hope you understand where I'm coming from here - but I'd want to bitch slap whoever came up with the idea for WD's in the first place solely on the concept ... whether it offers benefits that are real or not is another question of course but if you hire and train "professionals" then WD's seem counter to it when fixed "T" signs would suffice. And yeah, I feel the same way about timers. On a railroad, you either observe the restrictions, or you're outta there like CSX through a goose. Have things REALLY gotten so bad?
Just wanted to finish the thought - I have nothing against GT's ... their purpose was to stop a runaway ... but aside from such considerations, there's gotta be a better way ...
Your post on "professionals" would be valid if the TA weren't purposely diluting their workforce. And don't get me started on the training.
... Comes the repolusion ... still, sheesh ... glad I'm an outta towner if that's the reality these days.
I can understand how you feel, but many T/O's are professionals. That fateful day in 1991 (Robert Ray) changed many things from random/fitness for duty checks and uniforms to the introduction of WD's. From now until some point in the future there will be the human factor. I don't know of one T/O who can say they haven't gotten drowsy behind the controls of a train regardless of how much sleep they had gotten. The WD is a second system that overlaps the first to ensure proper speed through an area. The original system can't do what the wheel detector does. Frankly, I am glad there are timers also. There are some trains I have ridden....jeez. Testing the limits, but for what gains? If you are speeding and then the train is on the ground, what explanation can you give? There are a lot of different thinking people in the world that do things for different reasons, but again I understand your position.
Couldn't agree with you more ... especially on the "drowsy" part ... I mean, let's face it ... when you do the same run four times a day or more, it gets boring fast ('cept for the buffs of course. Heh) and I can understand that part. Happens enough on mainlines as well. But if you doze off in a cab, it's usually what they call a "microsleep" ... dangerous as all hell of course and it DOES happen. And usually just enough to hit a signal. But that's why you protect interlocks on the approach and have that spring under the handle.
I guess what I was trying to say is timers is one thing - they're almost forgiving of small indiscretions and the ones on curve protections are strict enough ... it was the WD's that I find offensive and there only from the standpoint of if you're doing 14.8 you get through, but if you do 15.001 you get nailed. When diverging through an interlock, you know to take it down to 15 or less depending on the "D" requirements for that crossover ... or at least should. I guess what I decry here is the unnecessary slowing of the railroad in areas where it isn't necessary to do so ...
The story of what happened to CPW as one single example is personally a heartbreaker for me. After the long and boring run up the Brighton headed for 205, that CPW dash woke me up - as exhilarating as a cold shower and a fun part of the run each way. Same for W4 to 34 as well. And as to Bobby Ray, he's certainly ruined a lot of lives, not just those on his own wreck, but the continuing wreck that followed him over the years. Damned shame. And yeah, I know a number of TA and ex-TA brethren that would like to pay him a visit. :)
Yeah, the railroad is getting slower still. CPW is still fresh on a lot of peoples minds.
It sounds really silly but I avoided certain foods when it came time to operate. Certain foods made me sleepy during the digestion process. The heat knocks you out too. I was mostly on redbirds and sometimes even if the cab door was open, there was still that imaginary "sheild" as if the door was still closed and the air wouldn't come into the cab. So then I cracked the window.
It's not written down anywhere but I have heard from more than one person that that there is a 5 mph leeway on some the WD. I remember that on the first WD at 14 st. it was 5 mph (maybe it still is) but I understand that they might have increased it to 10 mph. It would really tie up service if they had to run around something. I couldn't believe it when they put in the WD at the First ave. interlocking on the Flushing line in the tube. I made the move one night. The only problem is that after you come out of the switch you now have to ascend the grade while staying under 10. What a pain! If I remember correctly, series was not enough power so I had to put it in parallel to get up the hill but then shut it off and back to series to stay at 10. This had to be done several times. I was so embarassed as to what my passengers might have thought. Like a cowboy on a bronco!
Yeah, not finding the right "speed" on the controller to keep it smooth is a royal pain in the butt. In the old cars, you could sorta coast and cheat but even then you had to "give it some gas" at points where it would make you nuts. I can only imagine what it's like today with the slower speeds. I never did the boids, I was B2 ... well, they told me B1 because the D line "looked" like BMT from the Stillwell end though we all know better. Heh.
But yeah, I knew a guy who just could not eat BEETS ... 30 minutes later, and he'd be slumped over anything handy. I guess it's just my body chemistry, but if I'm doing something, I never nod out no matter how tired I get ... I just crash and burn once I'm done with it and get stupid after a while. In other words, you want me to move it, no problem - just don't expect a coherent sentence out of me. :)
But I'd sure hate to be sentenced to a constant speed that a consist doesn't want to do without being able to just pop between coast and switching/series to give it a bump. The Steinway hoops must be pure hell ... one would think though that a simple R10 marker would be enough to let you know when your butt is clear of an interlock and that you wouldn't go three notches until after you passed it.
"You'll note that the indication given by a WD signal is not in any way tied to the other wayside signals."
"This is absolutely correct - and one of the glaring errors found in the Dell Comics version posted by 137th St."
I had asked if anyone were to correct me if there anything that I had left out. Jeff H. took that opportunity. You, TD, on the other hand, proceed to call it a "non-answer" and a "Dell Comics" version, which is much more of an attack rather than a correction.
Fair warning. I haven't learned to use the killfile yet, but don't make me have to learn.
"Fair warning. I haven't learned to use the killfile yet,"
So, what you are saying is that you know as much about killfiles as you do about wheel detectors? Use the killfile. The instructions are on the top of the page. All you'll do is eliminate my posts from your search criteria. However if that's troo complicated for you, just ignore my posts in the future. I wouldn't want to confuse you with facts.
So, what you are saying is that you know as much about killfiles as you do about wheel detectors?
Hey! Stop it. What the hell did Mr. 137th St. ever do to you? DO you have any friends? Do people willingly spend tine in your vicinity? Do they use your personality to strip and re-finish Redbirds?
Hey! Stop it. What the hell did Mr. 137th St. ever do to you? DO you have any friends? Do people willingly spend tine in your vicinity? Do they use your personality to strip and re-finish Redbirds?
Now this takes the cake! We're witnessing a mind meld of JM and TD.
Do they use your personality to strip and re-finish Redbirds?
That was the funniest thing I've read all night.
"Well, the flashing indication means that he/she is above the indicated speed."
I was on a (J) train this past Sunday leaving the Williamsburgh Bridge about to enter the Essex St. station.
The WD was flashing, but we didn't trip at the next homeball. Did the T/O slow down in time ?
Bill "Newkirk"
The TA is have some problems with them, so some of them are in bypass. Meening that they won't trip you if they are flashing, but remember the other ones will still trip you if you are going to fast. The only time you can resume speed is when you hit a green WD END sign past the zone.
Robert
(If anyone cares to correct me, go right ahead.)
I really don't care to correct you. It does, however, irk me to some extent that you can post an answer to a serious question - answer it like you have some real knowledge of the subject, and then say "(If anyone cares to correct me, go right ahead.)"
While you are pondering what errors you've made in your non-answer, here's another question. Why are the wheel detectors being phased out?
I'm sure that with all of your knowledge of wheel detector theory and operation, you'll have an answer by.....??
WDs being phased out??? Really?
How did I know about WDs to being with? When Redbirds were still en vogue on the #6, I found myself with a lot of time to look ahead at all of the signals on the line, which included home signals and WDs. Sometimes, esp. riding on the #6 express out northbound out of Parkchester, I saw the WDs in action, as well as how the T/Os got through them. Granted, there is probably more to WDs and other signals that I know about, but what I answered to AP is what I know so far.
At least your response was more useful than Train Dude's, who instead of providing information just took the oppurtunity to insult you.
"At least your response was more useful than Train Dude's, who instead of providing information just took the oppurtunity to insult you."
Are we then to assume that you consider mis-information to be information?
That seems to be the trouble with this board lately. There are a small group of people who post their 'comic book' view of the subject as fact and another group who will accept their ramblings as useful information. Considering that the only correct bit of information 137th St. posted was the signal aspect color. Now if you find the information useful then you will be as well informed as he is.
Furthermore, I do reserve the right to criticize any all posts that that I feel fall into that catagory and contain mis-information. If you have a problem with that - well that,s why god invented killfiles.
Why don't you be USEFUL and post the "correct" answer. Prove him wrong, don't just insult him. You seem to think you know alot so show us. If you don't have a better answer then don't say anything at all.
"Why don't you be USEFUL and post the "correct" answer."
I think that my information is useful. Unfortunately, I spend an inordinate amount of time pointing out the supidity of posts from people like railfan Pete, QDash7, MrX2000, and to some extent, you. You guys hear something and incorrect or not, misunderstood or not, you KDs post it as fact. Others read your 'authoritative' posts and before long, people are discussing how the R-160s will have 34" wheels on the #1 truck and 40" wheels on the #2 truck for a smoother ride. (BTW: We still need to clarify your misunderstanding about the speed of brakepipe air through the airbrake system. It is not the 900 feet per second that you posted.) But this is just my point. You post something that an engineer told you. You misunderstand it and post your misunderstood facts. How many others who read your posts now believe that air travels through a freight train at 930 feet per second? You KDs stop posting drivel and I'll i won't call you to task for it.
You still haven't posted any information to contradict Mr. 137th St. As far as I'm concearned you're full of hot air. You say that just because we post something dosen't me it's right. Well by the same logic, just because you claim that something is wrong dosen't means it is. I come to this board for information, not to see others get put down by ass holes.
You insult and belittle a person who went out of his way to answer answer another Subtalker's question to the best of his ability and you have the nerve to call me a jerk. Then you don't even supply the correct information (as if you had it in the first place), treating the situation like some sort of game show where you have the card and get to riddicule the contestants as they bumble around for the right answer.
BTW The rate is for a BIE and I'd believe an Engineer w/ 20 years experiance and over some TA manager.
BTW The rate is for a BIE and I'd believe an Engineer w/ 20 years experiance and over some TA manager.
Now I'll piss off both of you. I don't know squat about brake lines in freight trains (TD is getting red already unless he stopped reading here), but I can't imagine a wave of air pressure moving through a pipe at the speed of sound.
"but I can't imagine a wave of air pressure moving through a pipe at the speed of sound."
Sound is a vibration through air.
A reduction in pressure is a similar disturbance in air.
All things being equal the pipe reduction should transmit as quickly.
That it doesn't is an influence of outside factors: friction, the dynamics of piping, the operation of controls.
I have a BN brake book upstairs, and I guess I could look it up to see what it says, but the fact is that I am not all *that* interested, having other things to do this morning.
But it would be nice to:
1) hear things repeated and discussed for that is how we
a) learn and
b) cover the topic for those who may have missed it the 1st, 2nd, 3rd or 24th time around.
2) Not to listen to backbiting.
Elias
"but I can't imagine a wave of air pressure moving through a pipe at the speed of sound." Bob
I have been accused of lacking imagination. I haven't argued the point.
"Sound is a vibration through air.
A reduction in pressure is a similar disturbance in air." Elias
I suspect that there is actual physical movement of air through pipes, and not just a pressure wave actuating the breaks. A pressure reduction should involve air departing through a release valve, which would not occur at the speed of sound.
Perhaps I'm letting my imagination run away, though.
"A pressure reduction should involve air departing through a release valve, which would not occur at the speed of sound. Perhaps I'm letting my imagination run away, though."
Oh No! The Pressure is UNIFORM throughtout the whole system. Try it out with a garden hose (You do have gardens in NYC, don't you? (Hehehehehee...))
Make it simple: connect a hose to an open tank at one end, and get say 100' of hose, you can leave it coiled up (back yards in NYC aren't that big are they.)
Now fill the tank with water, and let it run through the hose until the hose is full and stop the other end.
Now open the valve, and watch the level of the water in the tank, It responds instantly doesn't it. The Water did not *move* from one end of the hose to the other. But a pressure reduction did occur at the far end almost instantly.
Imagine a balloon 620 feet long, imagine it inflated to 10 pounds psi.
Now make a reduction by letting air out of one end. The whole ballon is reduced in pressure all at once. You let out 2 psi, the whole ballon is now at 8 psi. Only a little are was removed from one end, and that was the only air that moved, but the whole balloon now has a reduced pressure.
So a brake application requires only a small pipe reduction, and all of the cars *should* acknoledge this pressure drop at once, that it doesn't is a function of various outside factors and dynamics of train brake operation the details of which I haven't much of a clue.
And here is the case in point. It takes only moments for a pipe reduction to reach all of the cars on these 100 car coal trains that run outside of our Abbey, but it can take 30 to 45 minutes to charge the whole train from the locomotive. Charging requires air to flow into all of the cylendars on all of the cars, and to charge them to the correct PSI, but once there, slight reductions can be detected at each car fairy quickly. I have heard a number such as 12 seconds for the last set of brakes to respond on a mile long train, but I'll have to check that out the next time my friend comes up to visit us, though bigedirtl has also run freight trains out here, and should also know the answer to this one.
: ) Elias
I have heard a number such as 12 seconds for the last set of brakes to respond on a mile long train, but I'll have to check that out...
At 900 feet per second, that should be 6 seconds.
Thanks for your imaginative pressure explanation. I live in South Jersey, the less urban portion of the Garden State, so I am familiar with garden hoses.
As was explained to me before the 900 fps is for an Emergency application. Service applications are slower.
>>> Now fill the tank with water, and let it run through the hose until the hose is full and stop the other end.
Now open the valve, and watch the level of the water in the tank, It responds instantly doesn't it. The Water did not *move* from one end of the hose to the other. But a pressure reduction did occur at the far end almost instantly. <<<<
A better example would be to take a hose sprinkler which is attached to a water source at one end and plugged at the other end with small holes throughout the length to allow the water to sprinkle on the lawn. If you open the plug at the end of the hose, you will see each of the sprinkler holes lose pressure in order from the end of the hose to the water source. On a short 25' hose this happens quickly, but by no means is it immediate. If the plug is partially opened, the difference in water pressure along the length of the hose will be sustained.
Tom
Would this be an inconvenient time to point out that water is
a liquid and as such is incompressible? Air is a gas and it
is compressible.
Think about air brakes vs automotive hydraulic brakes. On the
latter, the pressure in the line is changed by varying the force
on the piston. The piston hardly moves and the amount of fluid
in the system certainly doesn't change.
Air roughly follows the ideal gas law: pressure*volume is proprtional
to temperature*number of molecules. To change air pressure, assuming
the temperature is not changed by heating or cooling the system,
you have to change either the volume or the amount of air. On
a mile long brake pipe, the volume stays essentially constant, so
a reduction of 10% of the brake pipe pressure means 10% of the air
must be removed from the system, hence the hissing sound at the
brake stand.
The speed at which air can flow through a restricting orifice
is a function of the length versus the diameter of the orifice
and the pressure differential. The brake pipe is a long, narrow
straw and it takes a while for the air to flow. The amount of time
that it takes to equalize the brake pipe, i.e. for all points to
reach the desired reduction, is a function largely of the effective
diameter of the brake pipe and its length.
It has very little to do with the speed of pressure waves
(sound) in air at 1 atm pressure (the oft-cited figure of ~900fps).
Now, it may work out that the numbers are similar, but that's
a coincidence. Yeah, in the limit, there is an minute pressure
drop which travels at the speed of sound to the last car, but that's
not what sets the brakes. To continue the balloon analogy, a more
accurate experiment is to take a series of small balloons,
representing the branch piping at each car, and connect them with
long narrow straws. Fill them all up and then open the first
straw to atmosphere. The first balloon will be deflated fairly
quickly while the last balloon will take much longer, and each
balloon along the chain will be somewhere in between.
If you want to know how long it really takes for the service
reduction to reach the last car, take the reduction on
the automatic brake handle, then count how many seconds before
the thing stops hissing.
Now, to understand what happens in emergency, which is called
quick-action, put a flow sensor in each of these hypothetical
long straws and rig it so when the flow rate exceeds a certain
amount, a pin sticks out and pops the balloon. Now, pop the first
balloon in the chain, this is effectively what dumping the train
does. There will be a chain reaction, and the emergency brake
application move quickly through the train. That rate of
propagation obviously can't be faster than the speed of sound. It
is probably a little bit slower.
>>> That rate of propagation obviously can't be faster than the speed of sound. <<<
Great explanation, Jeff, I understood it right up to the above sentence. Although I agree that it is doubtful that the rate of propagation would be faster than the speed of sound, why is it impossible for it to be faster than the speed of sound?
Tom
Supersonics is not my area of expertise, that's more of an
aero-mech engineering thing. Generally, air won't travel
faster than the speed of sound except under exceptional
circumstances. That's why supersonic aircraft are so tricky.
Yes, I was aware that there were factors for which I did not account, since I do not know the factors, or the fromula or math involved, however the system does work on a pressure reduction not a movement of a medium as in an automobile braking sustem.
Subway and passenger trains are too short to worry about this delay, and their mor rigidly connected couplers make slack run in a largely non-issue.
Freight trains are different, and in the old days of the caboose, a pipe reduction *could* be initiated from the caboose to keep the train strung out. The newer FREDs also alow for this, but some of the older ones do not. I am not sure if this is only used in emergency or for regular service application.
Elias
Subway and passenger trains are too short to worry about this delay, and their mor rigidly connected couplers make slack
run in a largely non-issue.
That's true about the couplers. Different railways felt
differently about brake lag. Passenger trains demanded
smoother braking than freight (freight doesn't complain when
its coffee cup tips over) and rapid transit operations required
quicker brakes to keep schedule time.
Most adopted electro-pneumatic braking early on (by the 1920s).
The Chicago North Shore & Milwaukee is at least one example of
a first-class passenger road that ran up to 10 car trains
with schedule AMU braking, no electropneumatic. Pacific Electric
would be another example.
_AMU_?
Don't they live in New Zeland?
Unless they've come up with a further improved FRED the only ones I saw before my "retirement" only emergency app's could be applied by FRED, no service app's. Last one I saw May 1999.
The last cabooses bought by BN about 1980 [or so] also had an emergency only conductor's valve, instead of the multi-position valves that you could make service applications from the caboose with.
Thought this might be of interest.
The speed of sound is slightly over 1000fps at sea level.
The 900 ft/s figure is about right. From my Class I days, I remember reading that on RR type equipment, each car has a valve that senses a rapid drop in brake pipe pressure (quick service?) When an emergency brake pipe reduction is made, the valve in the adjacent car(s) vents brake pipe to atmosphere, then the valve in the next car does the same, etc. Note that the B.P. pressure does not have to drop to zero locally before this happens- the valves open as soon as the pressure BEGINS to drop (rapidly). Strictly speaking, the air does not move at 900 f/s, but the brake pipe PROPAGATION does.
...are you the Eggman?...
My original assertion was that a brake pipe application traveled at 900 fps. I then corrected this when a HELPFUL subtalker reminded me of the quick service feature for BIE. Thank you for confirming the fact that a BIE travels at 900 fps.
"Strictly speaking, the air does not move at 900 f/s",
This was exactly the point that I was going to make to JERKEY MIKE but his mind has no spare capacity.
Yeah whatever. I was refering to brake applications and was corrected that it only applied to BIE's (by someone other than yourself) to which I said fine. You kept fighting me tooth and nail and now that someone finally confirmed my ascertion your backpeadaling to cover your ass.
Mike, just killfile the JERK. I just did and it makes life a lot better.
In that case, I hope you enjoy continuing to be ill informed.
-Hank
I prefer to engage people instead of running away w/ my hands over my ears. To do so would be to sink to their level.
>>> just killfile [Train Dude]. I just did and it makes life a lot better. <<<
Probably that was a mistake, since in spite of his abrasive personality, Train Dude frequently has good technical information. You are throwing out the baby with the bath water if you have an interest in technical aspects of the NYC subways.
Tom
Also, as much as one may eschew confrontational threads, when someone else is the target of Train Dude's disdain, his put-downs can be VERY entertaining.
Jerk? Coming from a person who says Shemp was his favorite, that's high praise, indeed.
David B. you are the WEAKEST LINK goodbye...
Mike, Thanks for not putting me in your 'Killfile'. I feel so relieved. Now, as to the 930 ft/sec. thing, perhaps you'd like to go back into the archives. IIRC, this debate started over a discusion that you were not part of - trainline wires for MU brake application and release. At that time you interjected that it should not be necessary since air brake applications on freight trains travel at the now famous 930 ft/sec. Jeff H properly pointed out that the number sounded a tad fast to which you replied that an engineer told you so. Now that it's clarified (where the 930 feet/sec. actually comes from), it seems that you were the one who was wrong and it is you who once again is backpeddling.
Jeff H (or someone) helpfully pointed out that only applied to BIE to which I said "yes you're right, thank you." You, continued to insist that it was wrong. I also said 900, not 930.
I don't care if you insult people, you don't have to be kind to people. If you do choose to tell someone that their facts are wrong, then POST THE CORRECT ONES. Otherwise you look even stupider than the person posting misinformation. How am I supposed to avoid misinformation if you don't provide the correct info?
Actually, I do, usually post the correct information, albiet in my own time. I don't, however, see how only pointing out the errors of others make me seem more stupid (BTW: Stupider is not in Websters)than they are. If railfan putz (for example) posts that Lincoln was shot by Rodney Dangerfield, I think it's adequate to say "Bullshit". It makes me no less intelligent if I don't say that it was actually John Belushi.
BTW: Stupider is not in Websters
It's in American Heritage. Besides, if -er can be added to the end of an adjective without sounding weird, then it's a comparative adjective.
But still, I don't know what a WD's aspect looks like or how it's enforced.
BTW, I would appreciate you didn't diminish my handle.
To answer your serious question, the WD aspect is lunar white. It's illuminated when activated by the appropriate route selection. It is solid when the approaching train is at or below the required speed and flashes when the train spees is in excess of it. Contrary to mr137st, the WD has its own stoparm and does not function in conjunction with any other wayside signals. BTW; this information was taken from the "Signal Familiarization" book published by the NYCT Signal Division
He does that a lot.
I'm not too sure if you guys are familiar with Door Enablers on the R40/40M and R42 type cars (I dont think Ive ever seen them on other types of cars). The purpose for them is to make sure the conductor doesnt open the doors on the wrong side of the train....the train operator has to hit a button in his cab to allow the contuctor to open the doors. In other words YES you need two people to open the doors. You can tell which cars are equipped with door enablers just by looking at the number plate, if there is a Red Diamond underneath that means the car is equipped with it. I know it happened after Myrtle Ave but for about 3 stations in a row. The train pulled in and just sat there. No doors opening. The conductor over the PA tells the T.O. to open the door. It happend at the next station the same thing..the train just sat there. The conductor says "Yo, partner" the the T.O. over the PA. There was no response. Then there is a "Hellooooooooooooooooo partner" over the PA. Then the doors open. I think the T.O was napping up there or checking someone out because he was obviously distracted. My ride felt like an extra 10 minutes because of the laziness of the T.O. I just think its dumb to have 2 people open up the doors for a single 8 car train if it will slow people down from getting to work on time. Any opinions??
Anthony
Well it did not here of the R40/40M have them install yet, But I have heard of one or two trains of R46's on the G line having it and a train of R32's having them now. Also the R44's were the first ones to have them. The Enasblers are sometime are a pain in the A$$. I sometimes forget to push the botton, so to overcome this a hold the botton after I know the Train is going to stop at about 2mph. This way I know that the door will open.
Robert
About 85% of the R42 M&K fleet are equipped with the door enablers. All the cars on the consist must be enabler equipped or the system is bypassed and the C/R can open the doors without permission. There are no enablers on the R40M or R42 CI equipment, but I'm sure that they're on order.
Operating with the door enabler can be quite confusing for a T/O. I work with them very often and I can tell you that I'm good for about two stops a trip to forget. After about 4 seconds, I won't hear the doors open and that'll be my cue to wake up.
There are no enablers on the R40M or R42 CI equipment, but I'm sure that they're on order.
Are you sure?? I think I have seen them on R-42's. I will take some pictures with my digital camera on my way to work tomorrow just in case I do spot one. :)
>>>>>>>>>Are you sure?? I think I have seen them on R-42's.
Well, there are two types of R42's.
R42 M&K (4550-4839) have enablers on the majority of cars (85% est.).
R42 CI (4840-4949) and R40M (4450-4549) do not have enablers installed at this time.
I had some slow T/O's when it comes to the Enable button. It takes about 4 Minutes out of the run. I also had times where just before I close the front section of the train the enable gets taken away. It happened acouple of times it only a bad thing if someone should be rushing for the train and get stuck in the doors because now I can't reopen until the T/O gives me the button back. So now as the Conductor I have 2 options. 1. The person some how will get out of the Door and the indication light comes on. 2. The T/O will enable me and the enable light will come on so I can open the doors otherwise we just sit and wait.
To reduce its operating deficit and provide money for capital projects, including equipment improvements, the Roosevelt Island Operating Corp is considering ending service at 10 PM each night instead of 2 AM (3:30 weekends).
Daily News story
Hasn't anyone figured it out yet? Despite all the kvetching (that's Yiddish for complaining) about the subway service , a lot of the revenue has been diverted from the Tram since the 63rd St tunnel opened. There are peope who live on RI who work in midtown and downtown and now that they can get there on one fare and not having to walk from 1st Av all the way to Lexington Av to get a train why should they take the Tram?
I predict that once the F starts the 24/7 thru 63rd St you are going to see even more $$ problems on the Tram.
Let them close it altogether or use it as a tourist attraction. This in NYC not the Swiss Alps.
You're right about that. Housing developers eagerly awaited the start of 63rd St service.
I would hope they don't get rid of it. It is one of New York's unique charms. Why should only Swiss Alpers have something like that? I've taken it - you get a beautiful view. I think as a tourist attraction and historical exhibit it has value.
It could be a tourist attraction, but I have ridden the tram on a few occasions, and it can be scary as hell, especially on a windy day.
Given the option of a one fare, one seat ride into Manhattan, most folk vote with their feet and take the subway.
YOU got that right.It is horrorble![not that I'M afrid of heights ,you know]
I rode the tram once on a lunch break. It was okay but the schedule at that time didn't permit more than arriving on RI and take the next tram back. On the return trip we passed a RI bound tram. There was a maintenace man ON THE ROOF of the tram as it was moving over the east river....Guess that's one man who is not afraid of heights or in desperate need of a job.
Sure. He was probably the same "maintenace man" who tightroped between the two Twin Towers.
Nah ... leftover stunt extra from that "Nighhawk" movie Sylvester Stallone and Billy Dee Williams did 22 years ago. He just never got the word the shoot was over :-)
I liked the part where Stallone drove that bus into the East River. Reminds me of the joke, "Driver, does this bus stop at the river?"
"If it doesn't, there'll be one helluva splash."
Did you pass the other tram on your way there?
-Hank
It's on the wrong side of the bridge to make a decent tourist attraction.
-Hank
Yes I can imagine that the RI tram can be scary. It reminds me of the Bronx Zoo cable cars, which I only rode once. That was a scary feeling.
What's the difference b/t a tram and a cable car?
N/W
Not a whole lot. The Sky Ride at Palisades Amusement Park and the Swiss Sky Ride at Coney Island, not to mention the cable cars at the 1964-65 World's Fair, operate on the same principle. So do San Francisco's cable cars.
Then, Is the word Tram connected to transportation?
N/W
The two words can be used interchangeably. In addition, a tram also refers to a streetcar.
Other than the one to Roosevelt Island, are any aerial cable cars called trams? I don't know of any.
In fact, a tram is a cable car, ESPECIALLY one suspended from an overhead cable.
Just as the American Heritage Dictionary.
Examples? I've only heard the term used for trolleys (and, of course, the beast under discussion now). Even the San Francisco cable cars, which are quite trolley-like to the untrained eye, aren't called trams.
There are peope who live on RI who work in midtown and downtown and now that they can get there on one fare and not having to walk
from 1st Av all the way to Lexington Av to get a train why should they take the Tram?
The Tram station in Manhattan is at 2nd Ave between 59th and 60th Sts
There is a subway entrance at 3rd Ave and 60th Sts for the BMT local station that connects to midtown and downtown.
I predict that once the F starts the 24/7 thru 63rd St you are going to see even more $$ problems on the Tram.
Let them close it altogether or use it as a tourist attraction. This in NYC not the Swiss Alps.
I agree with your analysis. The major question for the state is whether the Tram is whether or not the Tram is a necessary loss leader to guarantee a high occupancy rate.
I'm surprise the tram is still operating since the subway was put in.
N/W Broadway Lines
Wasn't the Tram supposed to be temporary ?
Bill "Newkirk"
So is the Manhattan Bridge work :)
--Mark
IIRC the Tram was put in as an easy-to-build stopgap until subway service could be provided. Before the tram people had to take a bus into Queens to catch the subway.
Extrapolating their figures, they seem to be arguing that the tram loses $4.75 a trip after 10 p.m.
I'm not in favor of cutting any transit service generally, but IF its the only way to raise money for improvements, it doesn't seem horrible to cut back after 10, considering there has been 24 hour subway service provided for the last dozen years.
I agree. Marginal cost and the availability of alternatives matter.
I'll have to get on that TRAM one day. It's one of the few forms of mass transit I haven't used.
Whaddythink of all those folks in a state-sponsored development who are too good for the subway?
The tram should become part of the Metrocard system, functioning as a bus route with full transfer privileges between it and other buses and the subway. To quote the Mayor, "one City, one fare".
I agree, but the tram is operated by RIOC, not the MTA. Roosevelt Island buses also have their own fare system.
Although this should be on Bus-Talk, what kind of buses run on RI, fares and are they MTA?
Isn't there a free loop shuttle bus on the island?
The "Red Bus" is run by Roosevelt Island Operating Corp., a state entity; the fare is 25¢, and I think they run New Flyer D40LFs. The Q102 (Queens Surface) also serves the Island.
I'm surprised to hear that it's even running.
E_DOG
I was on vacation last week and missed a lot of posts, so please forgive this possible repetition. I just found Keystone Pete's "Day One of the W" photos and would like to say "Well done, Pete".
Thanks, Bob.
I spent a long weekend last week visiting The Seashore Trolley Museum and Boston. I hope to complete a page about that trip this weekend. I got some good pix of the Green Line doing some street-running (it does so in little bits here and there), which I am partial to, as you know.
On the other hand, those two photos DaWheelFlange posted last Tuesday of the AE trainset put any of mine to shame!
KP
On the other hand, those two photos DaWheelFlange posted last Tuesday of the AE trainset put any of mine to shame!
And mine! I'm still in awe of those pix. I emailed them to a railfan friend who's too busy to do his own websurfing.
2nd Notice: Meet by 10 AM at the Brooklyn bound end of the A/C at Chambers Street. Please be on time and E-mail me if you expect to go.
Gary, et., al.,
Have a very enjoyable time !
The BMTman's photos & my write up are in Dave's hands ... please take lots of photos to add to the "Field Trip" report.
Consider getting off before you reach the LIRR Long Beach station ... some real nice places to have lunch & mix with the beautiful people.
Gary, etc. if you bring your significant other tell her/him only one eyeball got married, the other is allowed to look (however all the other body parts got married ;-)
Was at the Turquoise Wednesday night. My daughter & grandson got all wet in the rough surf (this time we brought a change of cloths so we didn't have to got looking for some place that was open). I got the bottom of my shorts wet but had to stay that way because I didn't have a change of cloths. There was some kind of volleyball tournament going on just down the beach.
BTW, I'll be in Delaware, but be thinking of you folks.
Mr t__:^)
The writer has just located an official large NYCTA engineeering drawing, #7-A-417-SLB, which may clarify some of the facts regarding the 76th Street Station. The original drawing was dated September 11, 1951, and titled: Block Signalling and Interlocking, General Signal Arrangement, Line "A", Pitkin Avenue Yard, Scale 1" = 80'. The drawing was updated on June 8, 1956 (just prior to the opening of the extension to the Rockaways). It shows the entire Pitkin yard and its connections to the mainline, Hudson Street ramp, and future 76th Street Interlocking. The drawing states "Traffic Control between Euclid Avenue and Future 76th Street Interlockings and Pitkin Avenue Yard Interlocking for Tracks A5, A6, A7 and A8." The drawing clearly shows active tracks, numbered A7 and A8, between the Pitkin Yard and the stub end bulkhead located approximately 270' northeast of switches numbered 65 and 67; these tracks had led to the 76th Street Station before the bulkhead installation. The bulkhead has the notation beside it stating "To 76th Street Line "A".
The map detailing where tracks A7 and A8 led to will be found on Drawing Number 7-A-370SL, which I do not have.
It will be quite interesting if the actual present day status of this never used section and station could be actually determined. It also appears strange that perhaps little or no routine infrastructure maintenance has been done to these abandoned tunnels or station since the bulkheads were erected, as has been routinely done with other unused NYCTA tunnels. If so, could this possibly, over a period of time, endanger the area directly above the tunnels?
One last thought, maybe a bit far out, but perhaps not. If this station and the surrounding areas do in fact still exist, would this not make an excellent satellite display area for the NYC Transit Museum, and provide good underground storage for the ever-growing fleet of museum cars?
Now I'm getting interested all over again.
Steve who said he spoke with some TA workers years ago who said they claimed seeing the station itself, claimed that the station tiles were blue.
I would think they should be purple. Why ?
Start at Bway/Easy New York. The tile band is blue. All local stations east of Bway/ENY are also blue but a verticle rectangular size. Next Express station, Euclid Ave, purple tiles. That means all local stations east of Euclid Ave should have a purple tile code.
Grant Ave. doesn't count, since it is a diverging route and the tile code is green.
Anyone agree with this ?
Bill "Newkirk"
Coming after red Utica Ave, Bway/East New York (and the following local stations) should have been purple, and Euclid Ave (and its following local stations) should have been blue. According to the original IND pattern of purple-blue-green-yellow-red, purple follows red (as purple 42 St follows red 34th St-Penn Sta, purple Queens Plaza follows red Ely Ave, purple Fordham Rd follows red Tremont Av, purple 179 St follows red Parsons Blvd). In "Uptown, Downtown" Stan says that someone forgot the color scheme, but I've never believed that. I don't know why Bway/East New York was mis-tiled.
Well, this past Tuesday, July 31, 2001, I myself actually went to the location and area where the 76th Street-Pitkin Avenue IND station might have been planned and located. I surveyed the sidewalks and building property lines at that site, and I could not see any real physical evidence that a station (less alone an entrance or sidewalk grating) may have been built.
For one thing, the four sidewalk corners at 76th Street and Pitkin Avenue are too narrow at best, and there are private homes each located on its corner. I inspected the manhole covers, and they all seem to say "NYC SEWER". The nearest subway grating was on Pitkin Avenue near Grant Avenue (nearby that IND "A" line station).
If you wish to check out the area yourself, you may do so by taking the "A" train to Grant Avenue station, and walk east on Pitkin Avenue as it goes downhill, perhaps to trace the possible route it was planned to be. Please note that the 77th Street exit of the 80th Street-Hudson Street station in Queens has a part-time booth only open between 6:20am and 9:20am weekdays.
-William A. Padron
My question is, did the Pitkin Ave line continue under Pitkin ave or did it slant to the right and follow under the center medium of Conduit Ave. as it headed to the east?
Avid
Under Pitkin.
. It also appears strange that perhaps little or no routine infrastructure maintenance has been done to these abandoned tunnels or station since the bulkheads were erected, as has been routinely done with other unused NYCTA tunnels. If so, could this possibly, over a period of time, endanger the area directly above the tunnels?
Good question. The one tunnel this might come closest to is the Jerome/Sedgwick tunnel in the Bronx. Nothing has been done with it since the tracks were removed in the early 1960s. No maintenence of any kind is performed. The tunnel is sealed but there is ventilation. Previous subtalkers indicate that this 76th St station also has ventilaion even though access is sealed.
I would think that if the tunnel collapses and takes the road abov with it, it's a NYC DOT issue. If it runs under homes, it might be an "easement" issue, where the landlord above the tunnel is actually responsible for it, even if they don't know the tunnel is there.
At least, that's what we were told about the Polo Grounds shuttle tunnel - I guess the same rules would apply for 76th St.
--Mark
The Polo Grounds Shuttle tunnel, or actually the underground portion of the 9th Avenue El, was built upon after it closed. The trackways and tunnels are now the basements for several buildings along 162nd Street. So much for the possibility of a tunnel collapse.
The Polo Grounds Shuttle tunnel, or actually the underground portion of the 9th Avenue El, was built upon after it closed. The trackways and tunnels are now the basements for several buildings along 162nd Street. So much for the possibility of a tunnel collapse.
Not quite. Having done the tunnel tour in January 2000, I recall only one "basement" situation - a stairway near the east portal that ran up to what I believe is an abandoned laundry. There are no other entrances into the tunnel from the buildings above.
Agreed. I even videotaped the "tour". There are no other entrances anywhere. The stairways leading to Sedgwick Ave are also sealed over, and remnants of one remain.
I can almost guarantee that 80% of the people who live there have no idea that trains once ran beneath them until 1958.
--Mark
Reading between the lines of your post, I don't see anything in what you have that shows that the line was actually built.
I had a little correspondence with Joe Brennan on this and at this point I have to agree with him that, in the absence of convincing evidence to the contrary (like a photo, or a reliable eyewitness) that this does not exist, except on paper.
Ok, so wait. What about the 4 dead-end tracks that dont go into the yard between Grant and Euclid Ave Stations. Do they have something to do with the 76 St Station. Because I think those tracks (as short as they are) run under Conduit Blvd. If there ever is a trip to go explore this "Secret Station" COUNT ME IN!!!! I live right in the area and would like to check it out.
Anthony
Tony,
Look for Manhole covers with NYCTS lettering on them. They may be on the sidwalks or in the street. There are some of these near Acquduct station, on the sidewalk of North Conduit. I beleive these are for cable vaults for Power cables. There just might be some around 76th and Pitkin. I'm Guessing here. Maybe around that slight hill on Pitkin near the Public School, I don't know the number, P.S. or I.S. something.
avid
What 76th Street Station? Could somebody please fill me in on this (including history)?
- Lyle Goldman
...are in service as of Tuesday.
A couple of months ago I made a cryptic reference to the Brighton Line getting its day on TV. I didn't say more because I don't believe in "praising the day before its done" as I was unsure when, or even if, the show would air.
Now I've just been informed that Metro TV (Channel 70 Time Warner, 16 Cablevision) is going to air "Subway Obsession" as a segment of their Gotham TV show. It should be about a 5-minute segment out of the hour show, and is scheduled to air initially at:
Monday 8/6 at 9pm & 2am (next morning?)
Tuesday, 8/7 at 4pm
This will probably be rerun at unknown times over the coming months until you're sick of it, but the time above are the ones I have.
The film crew and I spent an entire day starting at Franklin/Fulton and working our way down to Stillwell with stops at Malbone Street, Prospect Park, Avenue H and Brighton Beach. This will all be condensed to about 5 minutes. I have no idea what the program will look like, what they used and what they discarded. I know they took a lot of footage out the front of a hippo on the Shuttle, and lots of run-bys and atmosphere shots. I also supplied nice old pictures for them to use as before and afters.
A handful of select railroad icons like myself already knew of this project, such as Heypaul (who first proposed the project) and the all-important BMTMan.
If this piece turns out nicely, you can praise me for advancing the art of subway history. If it turns out badly, I will change my name, grow a beard and move to Paraguay. If it turns out really badly, all railfans will have to change their names, grow beards, and move to Paraguay.
Someone want to tape it for those of us in Comcastland? (They dont' do Metro)
-Dave
Of course I'm going to record it, but I don't have the means to duplicate it or make it into a web format.
I'm hoping Gotham TV might provide me with streaming media for my web site (and permission, obviously) but the people who could do this, even if it is possible, aren't the same people who I worked with to make this, so it's all up in the air.
It's great to hear that the Brighton is going to be featured on TV, especially since it is back on the BMT where she belongs. With all the banter going on between me and Bob, Q, and the rest of the Brighton boys you would have thought I despised that line. Far from it. Next to my Sea Beach it was my favorite. In fact, my favorite stop on any subway as a kid was Prospect Park Station. That took me on a two block walk to Ebbets Field to see my then beloved Dodgers.
Anything that features the NY Subway on TV or in film passes muster with me. The only thing I can't understand is why so many New Yorkers are so oblivious to the treasure they have.
Actually, Gotham TV has a regular show called "Subway Q&A." It's not about subways per se, but they're always on the subway, where they interview people and goof on them and so on. In 20 years, railfans will probably love it for the "slice of time" look at the subway system c.2000.
I've never seen this show mentioned here so I guess folks here either haven't seen it or don't care for it.
For info, click here, then clock on SUBWAY Q&A.
It has been mentioned here once or twice.
Don't care for it, myself.
Peace,
ANDEE
All Important BMT-Man, dang he is gonna get a swelled head....
gonna...as if he already didn't HAVE one?
Peace,
ANDEE
If I could get it turned into RealVideo, would you host it on your site (provided it's good enough)?
Depends on how big it is, and of course, with permission from the TV people. I also don't have real video streaming software so it would be better off in mpg or avi.
You don't need special streaming software. My friend uses Geocities, puts his .rms up, and there are three ways of viewing them:
1. Click on it, IE downloads the entire file and then RealVideo opens and plays it.
2. Right click on it, click save as, it saves to the hard drive and then open it in RealVideo.
3. Open RealVideo and type the location in, the Player does all the streaming work.
A five minute file takes up about 7 megabytes, at 160x120 screen size.
Of course, you would have to get some sort of permission.
[A handful of select railroad icons like myself already knew of this project, such as Heypaul (who first proposed the project) and the all-important BMTMan.]
Paul, shouldn't that be 'the self-absorbed BMTman'?
[If this piece turns out nicely, you can praise me for advancing the art of subway history. If it turns out badly, I will change my name, grow a beard and move to Paraguay. If it turns out really badly, all railfans will have to change their names, grow beards, and move to Paraguay.]
In anticipation of the Metro TV special being a stinker, I hear it that heypaul has already decided to move to Paraguay....;-D
BMTman
In anticipation of the Metro TV special being a stinker, I hear it that heypaul has already decided to move to Paraguay....;-D
Why? He has all those extra personalities that he can use.
HEY....I'm the one with the excess personalalalaities(sic). Let's get that strait right NOW.
Peace,
ANDEE
It's official.
They spelled my name wrong. Hopefully that's as bad as it gets. Butt, heyy, itt's tthe pricce off famme.
(It's official.
They spelled my name wrong. Hopefully that's as bad as it gets. Butt, heyy, itt's tthe pricce off famme.)
Well Paul, I had your age about right, but I expected more hair.
I'm 40 today. More hair, but more fat too.
Well Paul, I had your age about right, but I expected more hair.
Well, I've got a little more hair than it looks like in the photo. My hair in the front has gone completely white--I knew I should have gotten out my can of Richard Kimble shoe polish before going on the shoot! ;-)
But Monday evening you'll know the whole truth and I won't be able to explain it away.
I'm 40 today.
Ah! Best wishes and Mavel Tov! But through the didactic wisdom of my extra 15 years, let me share the fruit of my experience. If you can keep fit, the muscles go later than the hair--I still press more than all but the biggest 20-somethings at my gym. Alas, the joints also go before the muscles, but so far I'm hanging in there.
If it turns out really badly, all railfans will have to change their names, grow beards, and move to Paraguay.
Well, I've already got the beard, and I speak Spanish, so I'm just about ready... :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Rode the J yesterday from Chambers to Canal and noticed all the work going on in the center platform.
right after leaving Chambers, when the train is switching over to the middle track, I noticed a curve in the wall, it looks like there might be a tunnel there? Any idea?
That would probably be the old Nassua Street Loop connection to the south tracks on the MB.
The curve in the wall is going east right before Chambers as if you were wrong railing into Chambers on the Northbound platform. It is like a highway entrance merge from the right.
For going to the Manny B, wouldn't it be like an off ramp of a highway?
I've decided to take a tour of the subway.The forgotten subway.In a span of 3 weeks I will make a subway update to the 3 most Notorius abndoned stations.
1.9th avenue lowe level BMT
2.City hall IRT
3.Undecided.Either 42nd street lower level,City hall lower level BMT,or 18th street IRT.
I also remind you that the Why and why not crap is a withdrawed statement.
very very good, email me and join our group of Experienced Urban Explorers, Playland and The Joe (using names without permission) are part of this organization.
Me? i'd never go into a tunnel. You eastern block peoples be crazy. heh!
Me? I'd ONLY go into a tunnel. I eastern block people is/are crazy.
1.At the base of South ferry park,how deep is the water ?
2.Is it possible to build an elevated line and if so how long will it take compared to a tunnel ?
3.How may miles is Manhatthan from Staten Island ?
4.Is it possible to build an under water tunnel with a BMT(boring) machine and if so,how long will it take?
5.Is it possible to connect a new line with an older(example:The Clark street tunnel with th Water street tunnel)?
6.Is a new subway line needed for the West side of Staten Island?
and finally
7.Is it possible to add another line to the Eastern Parkway express(4)?
Some follow up questions:
1. How long is a 10-foot pole?
2. Who's buried in Grant's Tomb?
3. What color is an orange?
Just kidding. A little levity.
Carry on.
You forgot 'why is the south so far south?'
Everyone knows napolean is buried in grants' tomb.
I'm sorry, the correct answer is George Washington.
Actually, it's President and Mrs. Ulysess S. Grant.
subfan
You obviously missed that episode.
-Hank
You obviously missed that episode.
And no one is buried in Grant's tomb. It's above ground. That's the ORIGINAL joke. If you're not sub-surface, you're not buried.
-Hank
I'm don't know what episode you're refering to - I watch very little TV. You did get me though with the underground/above ground issue.
subfan
4) During the 1999 Irish Sheepdog Trials how many dogs were found guilty?
5) Spell LONDON, BELFAST, DUBLIN, GUINNESS and SCOTCH
6) Where is the basement of a three-story building?
7) What colour is a red train?
8) At what time is "News at Ten" on?
9) Approximately how many commandments was Moses given?
10) What musical instrument does Vinny the Violinist play?
Enquiring Minds Want To Know!
Cheers,
PJ Dougherty
Publisher, Tracks of the NYC Subway
1. Can't answer
2. It could be possible it would take 2 to 4 years. It would not happen though cause of the cost and it might ruin the skyline. (The Brooklyn Battery Tunnel was supposed to be a bridge but cause of the skyline it was declined so one to S.I. would be knocked out for the same reason)
3. It depends if it goes through New Jersey straight it will be 5 miles. If it aviodied the New Jersey Border for political reasons it will be 5.5 to 6 miles.
4. Yes, that is the best option. It will only be .20 as long as the channel tunnel. It will take longer then a bridge. 5-7 years.
5. Cant answer
6. It could be ground level if the old trackways exist still, it might be gone. If it exists stil then it will be ground level (open cut)
7. Cant answer
2. It could be possible it would take 2 to 4 years. It would not happen though cause of the cost and it might ruin the skyline. (The Brooklyn Battery Tunnel was supposed to be a bridge but cause of the skyline it was declined so one to S.I. would be knocked out for the same reason)
NO. It won't be done because it would be incredibly stupid, incredibly costly, and such an impediment to sfe navigation of the harbor that the Corps of Engineers would LAUGH in the face of such a proposal.
3. It depends if it goes through New Jersey straight it will be 5 miles. If it aviodied the New Jersey Border for political reasons it will be 5.5 to 6 miles.
It's 5 miles as the crow flies, between St. George and Whitehall. There are closer parts of Manhattan. Why the hell is New Jersey any part of the equation?
4. Yes, that is the best option. It will only be .20 as long as the channel tunnel. It will take longer then a bridge. 5-7 years.
You got one right. But it'll take more than 7 years to get through the public hearings and environmental reviews.
6. It could be ground level if the old trackways exist still, it might be gone. If it exists stil then it will be ground level (open cut)
This MIGHT have been a legitimate answer, IF such a line had ever existed at any point in the past. There's no point for west shore passenger service, as there are NO POTENTIAL PASSENGERS. The area is totally industrial/wetlands.
-Hank
1.At the base of South ferry park,how deep is the water ?
Answer: This is an easy one. At the base of south ferry park the water goes all the way to the bottom
2.Is it possible to build an elevated line and if so how long will it take compared to a tunnel ?
Answer: Another easy one. Yes! Elevated lines can be built. It's been tried before. I think they are 31% faster per mile to build than a tunnel of equal length but only for straight track. It's slower around curves.
3.How may miles is Manhatthan from Staten Island ?
Can you clarify your question. From what part of manhattan to what part of Staten island?
4.Is it possible to build an under water tunnel with a BMT(boring) machine and if so,how long will it take?
The BMT does not have a boring machine. You on the other hand are very.
5.Is it possible to connect a new line with an older(example:The Clark street tunnel with th Water street tunnel)?
Answer: Yes, I think they tried it with 63rd St. and with Archer Avenue most recently. I'm pretty sure it can be done based on those two tests.
6.Is a new subway line needed for the West side of Staten Island?
Is there an old subway line there?
and finally (THANK YOU LORD)
7.Is it possible to add another line to the Eastern Parkway express(4)?
Answer: Yes, it can be done like this: Eastern Parkway express. With the right HTML tags, you could also likely add still another line above, too.
Now one additional question, if I might. What do you do for a living?
1.By how deep I mean how many feet
2.Thank you
3.From South Ferry to St George
4.A BMT machine is is a machine used to dig through soil.And not funny.
5.Thank you
6.Does the RESIDENTS of WEST STATEN ISLAND need a nnnnnew subway line?
Not funny
7.The 4 in brooklyn.(duh)
Your question:I'm a former softwar designer.I'm trying to start my on company.Why do you ask.
By the way:What do you do for a living
What do you do for a living ?
I'm a shepherd........
...with a very warped sense of humor. I haven't laughed that hard in along time, Steve.
Who likes lamb chops well done.
-Hank :)
I'm a shepherd........
Of Hippos in the Bronx. Lets all give him a cheer !
Mr t__:^)
And Redbirds waiting to go for a swim......
Very funny anwsers to some really pointless questions.......
>>I'm a shepherd........<<
Sheep!?! SHEEP?!? I would not call those sheep! maybe if you were in ENY or something, but those are not sheep. Hippos is a fitting name; fast, big and powerful.
And, those responses (to MrX2001, this is how you spell response: 'respoze'. Replace the 'c' with a 'z'. That should fix that pesky problem.), were funny.
Seriously, MrX, where do you get this stuff? What does the 3rd av el have to do with the 2nd av subway? nothing.
Reading posts on subtalk doesn't qualify as research. I've read some total crap on subtalk. I've had people tell me things that I know aren't true (ex. a "poster who will remain nameless" told me that 6 cars do not support the G line, it needs 8 car R-46's. Of course, I ride the line every day during the school year, And unless the G is late, there is no need for 8 cars, unless everybody needs a seat.
Don't ask silly questions and expect serious answers. The more and more you continue to post this garbage, the more people will begin taking your posts as a joke. As it stands, people don't take you seriously because of the stuff you post, and even if you did post real posts people would take them lightly.
And, I'd like to let you know what Train Dude does for a living, so that this can stop. He works in a 'brass' position at a TA facility (Discreet enough for ya T. Dude?) He is entitled to a lot of information, not to say that he isn't occasionally wrong. (that's "where the hell he gets his crap") Some subtalkers are priviledged to work in TA positions, and they have info that we don't.
Anyway, take that into consideration, please? It would be helpful. I wouldn't want to put anyone on 'killfile' (not to say that other people haven't already done this).
>>I'm a shepherd........<<
Sheep!?! SHEEP?!? I would not call those sheep! maybe if you were in ENY or something, but those are not sheep. Hippos is a fitting name; fast, big and powerful.
And, those responses (to MrX2001, this is how you spell response: 'respoze'. Replace the 'c' with a 'z'. That should fix that pesky problem.), were funny.
Seriously, MrX, where do you get this stuff? What does the 3rd av el have to do with the 2nd av subway? nothing.
Reading posts on subtalk doesn't qualify as research. I've read some total crap on subtalk. I've had people tell me things that I know aren't true (ex. a "poster who will remain nameless" told me that 6 cars do not support the G line, it needs 8 car R-46's. Of course, I ride the line every day during the school year, And unless the G is late, there is no need for 8 cars, unless everybody needs a seat.
Don't ask silly questions and expect serious answers. The more and more you continue to post this garbage, the more people will begin taking your posts as a joke. As it stands, people don't take you seriously because of the stuff you post, and even if you did post real posts people would take them lightly.
And, I'd like to let you know what Train Dude does for a living, so that this can stop. He works in a 'brass' position at a TA facility (Discreet enough for ya T. Dude?) He is entitled to a lot of information, not to say that he isn't occasionally wrong. (that's "where the hell he gets his crap") Some subtalkers are priviledged to work in TA positions, and they have info that we don't.
Anyway, take that into consideration, please? It would be helpful. I wouldn't want to put anyone on 'killfile' (not to say that other people haven't already done this).
I think people are being a little harsh with MrX2001. After all, he's just a little kid. He *is* just a little kid, right? Please tell me he's a six year-old.
>>He *is* just a little kid, right? Please tell me he's a six year-old.<<
In mind, I think he'll always be 6. But he says he's a computer programmer, and he's already graduated from High School, So, uh, I guess he's older than that...
I've owned a software company for 20 years now. Word up: LEARN CORRECT ENGLISH GRAMMAR AND SPELLING.
Tough Room...
Oh yeah. The irritability quotient in here is pretty high....
Sorry, hemroids. We've even named them.
-Hank :)
For #7 - There already is another line on the Eastern Pkwy express in addition to the 4, the 5 although it is rush hours only.
There is no such thing as a BMT machine. It is called a 'TBM', or Tunnel Boring Machine. It is NOT used to go through 'soil'. It is used to bore through solid rock and clay. Calling it a 'TBM Machine' is redundant.
Good luck with the software design. I work Quality Assurance for a major software firm. Based on the conversation so far, I'd suspect your credentials are false. Your code likely has as many mistakes as your post, which explains the 'former' very well.
-Hank
He said war not ware, perhaps softwar is a code for cold war?
Arti
LOL
Sorry hank there is a BMT machine and his name is BMTDude!!
The man is a machine I tell ya, look at him go when he is on the Franklin Ave Shuttle.
Sorry hank there is a BMT machine and his name is BMTDude!! The man is a machine I tell ya, look at him go when he is on the Franklin Ave Shuttle.
Or when he's within 100 yards of a buffet table :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
>>>Your question:I'm a former softwar designer.I'm trying to start my on company.Why do you ask.<<<
Software? I hope to God you mean clothing!
*Rimshot*
Thanks folks, I'll be here all week.
TBM .TBM TBM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!bmt?
South Ferry Park? I guess you really mean Battery Park. At low tide, I would guestimate the depth to be somewhere between 20 and 25 feet where the SI Ferry slips are and slightly less than that towards the west. The main shipping channels in the harbor between Manhattan and Staten ISland are supposed to be kept dredged to a mean depth of 40 feet.
The route of the ferry is probably the shortest ditance between the two and is given as 5.1 to 5.2 miles.
They're dredgeing the channels to 50'.
-Hank
That's only the channel that leads through the Kill to Elizabethport. The channle through the harbor towards Manhattan is not being deepened in this go-round.
That's because it doesn't need to be. The harbor itself is 'plenty deep'. Nothing goes up the Hudson that needs more than 30' of draft.
-Hank
Dont mess with da best, Steve'll put you to da test. Thank you train dude for lightening up the evening a bit
From the Alstom website:
[ALSTOM has a strong presence in the North American rail transport sector. The Company recently won orders for the Chicago and New York subways, the New Jersey Transit and the refurbishment of Amtrak locomotives. The Company, in association with Bombardier, is also supplying Amtrak with high-speed trainsets (250 km/h) for the Washington-New York-Boston rail link. ALSTOM's position in the American transport market was further strengthened by the recent acquisition of signalling specialist GRS. ]
Did NYCT have a contract with them?
Alstom is under the Bombardier umbrella. Currently our new Bombardier R-142 Subway Cars are rolling on Alston Wheel Motors. Pretty Big Contract huh?
Also, Alstom is building New Jersey Transit's New Comet V Cars due to premier in the Summer of 2002.
Regards,
Trevor Logan
www.transitalk.com
I think they might have been part of that testing on 8 R38's. Experimenting with AC motors. They are now taking them off. Don't know if the test was successful.
1/9:No redbirds.Gone for 10-15 years
2:98% Rebirds,Rest R146.Suppose to get R62a's and R142
3:No Redbirds.Gone for nearly 10 years
4:10-20% Redbirds.RestR62/s .Suppose to get R142
5:99% Redbirds Suppose to get R62's,R62a's and R146's
6:40% Redbirds,Rest R62a's and R142s(By the way,R142's are onlytest trains)suppose to gert R142's(might give it's R62's to the 7)
7:100% Redbirds(These numbers are extremely sad)Suppose to get R62's from 6.
9:No Redbirds.Never seen in 9 service.
The last line to have 100% Redbirds is the 8 befor it's service was discontiued.
Im sorry but what is a R-146 that you have in your memo. Your note is so unclear. Type it again with calrity so some of us can understand you.
By R146's mean R 142's.Sorry on my part.
Redbirds never ran on the 1 or 3 trains. I do recall seeing R29s on the 1, but that was long before they were GOH'ed. They might have also been on the 3 as well (everything ran with everything on the IRT in the early 80s), but that was when they were full of graffiti. As for the 8, more commonly known as the 3rd Avenue El (or whatever was left of it), the only R-type cars to ever run there were R12s and R14s. Those were gone in 1983, long before the Redbird scheme was applied to any car.
Where did you hear the 2 was getting R62As? As far as I know, the 2 is going to be all R142s by the end of this year. And right now, I would say the 2 line is considerably less than 98% Redbirds, more like 78%. No R62As are going to the 2 line. The 6 will probably be all R142As by year's end. The R142As on the 6 train are NOT test trains. They run in regular passenger service, and if I may say so, they run very well. And I would say that the 6 train fleet is much less than 40% Redbirds, more like 20%, maybe even less.
There are three trains of R62As on the 5 right now. They do operate in regular service, but are needed for late-night Dyre Avenue shuttle service, which is OPTO. When the first few sets of R142s assigned to the 5 arrive (these will likely number in the 6700s), the three R62A trains will probably be sent to the 7, along with the Pelham R62As that are on the 6 now as will some R62As from the 3. As far as I know, R62s will not go to the 5 train. They will stay only on the 4. I think Kawasaki R142As from the option order may go to the 4 to replace the Redbirds currently there, but that will probably not happen until sometime next year. Bombardier R142s from that option order will likey go to the 3 to make up for the R62As sent to the 7.
As far as I know that's the plan for the IRT for the next couple of years. If there's anything else, let me know.
You're right R142 #2. Just be easy with the #6 Pelham Local Line figures for the R142. The current status is approx. 1:5-7 trains are of the R142A type.
I'll go to the Bombardier website and see if there are any updates for the R142 car assignments, but I doubt if there will be on the website.
Given measures and facts were accurate (I don't know about GOH's or historical trains (R12- R14's) but I'm sure you're correct).
[The rarity of the R142A's on the #2 - 7th Av. Exp line are as follows:
1:6-7 trains are R142's. (I don't know if they're getting new trains on the tracks EVERYDAY, since the ships that carry the trains can only come during their scheduled boat and shipment times. Also, some selected IRT storage yards can hold masses of R142's before they first 'hit the tracks'. (As opposed to 'hit the road'.)
: )
Railfan Pete.
There are over 13 R-142 trains running on the #2 line say 2 are off on a given day so that makes 11. The #2 needs 31 trains for the rush, so 11/31, that's over a third. I believe the figure is more of 1:2 or 1:3.
But that's for rush hour service. The Transit Workers can discharge random R142's into rail yards (storage & maintenance) where they need to. During normal hours, the ratio doesn't seem so big as to R142's.
: )
Railfan Pete.
Actually, don't you think they would take out redbirds before taking out R142s in the TA's system of new material presiding when it is able to.
Okay here we go:
"1/9:No redbirds.Gone for 10-15 years"
Correct, though I don't know how many years exactly the redbirds were off this line, but nycsubway.org does have pictures of #1 redbirds.
"2:98% Rebirds,Rest R146.Suppose to get R62a's and R142"
{Correction: Rest R142, not R146}
Redbirds are about 60-65% of the fleet now since they're sending some to the 5 and we have many R142s on the line, over 13 trains worth I think. They are not getting R62s or R62As.
"3:No Redbirds.Gone for nearly 10 years"
There have been occasional redbirds on the 3. I don't know why, but they are extremely rare. I got on a redbird late at night at around 11:00 about an hour before the 3s get eliminated, and I got on a redbird all cars signed up for 3. Conductor said it was a 3. Don't forget, 3 is getting R142s as well.
"4:10-20% Redbirds.RestR62/s .Suppose to get R142"
Right except they are not getting R142s except for GOs. You probably mixed up the 3 and 4 as to what line will get R142s.
"5:99% Redbirds Suppose to get R62's,R62a's and R146's"
{Correction "and R142's"
They're getting all R62 and As and that's it.
"6:40% Redbirds,Rest R62a's and R142s(By the way,R142's are onlytest trains)suppose to gert R142's(might give it's R62's to the 7)"
??? This makes no sense, R142s are not test trains they are running in service as R142As on the 6 and are meant to stay there past redbird era. They will get R142As not R142s. R142s for 2 and 3, R142As for 6.
"7:100% Redbirds(These numbers are extremely sad)Suppose to get R62's from 6"
Among other lines.
"9:No Redbirds.Never seen in 9 service."
That's correct as far as I know.
<<"5:99% Redbirds Suppose to get R62's,R62a's and R146's"
{Correction "and R142's"
They're getting all R62 and As and that's it>>
Where are the R62's and A's supposed to be coming from?
Also, if they completely redid the East 180th Service barn to service R142's, and the fact that the neighboring Unionport Yard stores the #5 trains, wouldn't it seem likely that #5 would get at least some R142's? Are there really enough R62's from the other lines to repalce all the redbirds on the 5?
"Where are the R62's and A's supposed to be coming from?"
The 3 and 6 lines I assume which will have many to spare since both of these lines will be all R142/As.
"Also, if they completely redid the East 180th Service barn to service R142's, and the fact that the neighboring Unionport Yard stores the #5 trains, wouldn't it seem likely that #5 would get at least some R142's? Are there really enough R62's from the other lines to repalce all the redbirds on the 5?"
Who knows? Maybe the 5 will get an occasional R142 like what is happening today.
The (5) Line is going to be ALL R-142 Cars, the (4) Line will be left over R-142/R-142As after the (2), (3), (5), and (6) get there cars.
Regards,
Trevor Logan
1987 was the last year the 1 ran the birds. One 10 car test train of ECAM equipped mainline R36s, including 9542,9548 and others left the line around March or April. All previous carbon steel cars were retired a year earlier.
There is now a website for the Franklin Shuttle BVE route (and any more for the future)! Browse to r68a_5200.tripod.com, screenshots of the latest build of the Route, along with cab views of the R142A and soon to be in revenue service R143! It's quite intresting...
Clayton (posting for R68A 5200)
I'll be out of the country from August 3rd till Aug 21st. I won't be posting here nor updating the BVE site till I get back. Till then, BVE fans, go enjoy
r68a_5200.tripod.com
for some add-ons.
-Later!
I went on a ride on N1 from 9th Ave Lower Level to the SBK Scrap yard at 38th St and 1st Ave yesterday. We went on the street trackage across 2nd and 1st avenue to get there. Once we got to the yard the hand thrown switches were thrown and 3 scrap ready flatcars were unloaded. Of course I took pictures.
Check them out at my website The Other Side Of The Tracks: A Website Devoted To The New York City Subway
-Harry
The Other Side Of The Tracks: A Website Devoted To The New York City Subway
One more thing...
I have pictures of the collector (Money Train) too...
-Harry
The Other Side Of The Tracks: A Website Devoted To The New York City Subway
Nice collection of photos ... enjoyed them very much, thanks for sharing !
Mr t__:^)
One thing you should have gotten were photos from outside the train as it was crossing the streets. Those shots are real dramatic when you see cars in Brooklyn waiting for a 50-ton diesel to cross.
Unfortunately they were very paranoid about letting me off the loco.
-Harry
Okay where are her ditch-lighting??
That is an FRA mandate now, but then non of these pictures get a clear front shot. I'll have to inspect on 8/26!!
Okay where are her ditch-lighting??
That is an FRA mandate now...
Last month the Cape May Seashore Lines M410 was slowing for every grade crossing. I asked the conductor whether the engineer was a wuss, and he said that by law a train without ditch lights had to slow to 20 mph got crossings. This implies that the FRA mandate doesn't ban operating without ditch lights.
Just in time for this morning's rush hour, the Chicago area was hit by a massive storm that dumped almost four inches of rain on the city in less than two hours. The Deep Tunnel filled to capacity in less than an hour, forcing the Water Reclamation District to open the locks on the Chicago River and North Shore Channel to dump excess rain water into the lake. (Beaches closed until at least Saturday due to bacteria threat.) An estimated 1500 basements flooded, and power outages affecting up to 50,000 ComEd customers at one point. Among the storm's impact on local highways and transit systems:
The Edens Expressway was blocked in several places by high water. At the Pratt Avenue underpass, the water was 6-8 feet deep and had totally submerged several cars. Witnesses say the water rose to that height in a matter of minutes once the storm drains had backed up. Cars had no way to escape due to heavy traffic.
The Kennedy Expressway was closed at Hubbard's Cave due to high water. The Dan Ryan was shut down at 87th street due to flooding. Lake Shore Drive was closed around 53rd, also due to flooding. The Eisenhower Expressway had rising water in some parts that was powerful enough to lift off manhole covers in the left lane, but the highway was still passable. The Stevenson, the Skyway, and most of the tollways were not severely affected.
Most city streets were blocked with floodwaters at locations where the streets pass under railroad viaducts, sometimes with up to 4 feet of standing water.
Metra Electric and South Shore trains disrupted by downed catenary lines. Disruptions also on Metra Southwest Service line.
Yellow Line (Skokie Swift) train derailed due to debris on tracks from nearby runoff. Trains replaced by shuttle busses all day.
Purple Line (Evanston) trains disrupted by lightning strike to power substation. Trains replaced by shuttle busses through early afternoon.
Red and Blue Lines (State and Dearborn Subways) unable to enter subway portions for several hours due to flooding in tunnels. Trains replaced by shuttle busses.
Red Line (Dan Ryan branch) disrupted at 87th Street due to expressway flooding. Trains replaced by shuttle busses.
CTA express busses on Lake Shore Drive diverted to local streets due to flooding. Lawrence and Montrose underpasses flooded.
A severe accident at Madison and Des Plaines this afternoon (not weather-related) involves a CTA bus and five cars. Several injuries reported.
As of this writing, though, most of the water has receeded and the CTA and expressways are returning to normal.
Chicago Tribune Article
WHAT A MESS!!
-- David
Chicago, IL
Wow, I hope that's not the sort of stuff we'll have to deal with regularly if the scientists are right and the sea level starts rising from climate change....
We would probably just dig another canal and send all the water to where New York used to be. Besides, with both New York and Los Angeles submerged by global warming, Chicago would then become the primary city of the US, like Paris is to France. The only downside is that all the people from Florida would move back here (since Florida would be underwater and we would now have Florida's weather). Chicago would become a huge Miami on steroids. [shudder]
Too bad we didn't have any redbirds on hand today to send down into the subways to help them learn to swim. :-)
BTW, I rode the Red Line subway back home this evening from a meeting downtown, and everything seems back to normal.
-- David
Chicago, IL
Heheh, I was actually talking from a New Yorker's point of view, thanks for the idea about dumping your excess water on us :)
Going to college up in Binghamton (only 2 years left *sob*) inspired me with the ultimate solution to NYC's potential global warming problem. Buy up enough land upstate near Binghamton (lots of empty land), and just move the entire city up there, piece by piece,and replicate every street, park, and highway so all the ex-New Yorkers will feel at home. we could call it "New New York" or "Upstate New York City"....It would also revitalize the (nonexistant) economy up there in the "Southern Tier", which is based almost exclusively on the underage drinking of SUNY students and the taxis we take back to campus. :)
"Water is very, very dangerous. Water is. I mean, water is very dangerous. I mean, people don't realize that it's just like heat. People realize how heat is dangerous. Same thing with water."
-- Mayor Richard Daley, speaking at a City Hall news conference Thursday
Thanks for such inspired leadership, Rich. :-)
-- David
Chicago, IL
This is getting to be a regular mid-summer occurance - either floods or extreme heat waves. I vacation there every early-July, and get out just in time. Must be the global warming.
Yet, Another Track Bed Photo by Me!
Just above Bedford Park Boulevard Station!
Enjoy!
Regards,
Trevor Logan
www.transitalk.com
There, much better...
Sorry, Trevor... I couldn't resist. :-)
Great photos!
-- David
Chicago, IL
That is the BEST!
-Hank
I assume judging by the apartment building in the background, the reef will be located in the lost city of Atlantis...
I assume judging by the apartment building in the background, the reef will be located in the lost city of Atlantis...
But isn't it lost?
Oh, you're askin' for it now!
The hardcore redbird worshippers are gonna CRUCIFY you!
But it's still funny as hell!!! (and I'm a redbird fan too!)
LOL David my friend !
Mr t__|:-0)
Great photo. If an R142 train had been in that photo, it would look more clearer and brighter.
The T/A will have to remove the oils and the parts of the electric motor in the undercarriage before putting them down in the Atlantic. (They're also removing doors, windows, rollsigns, and also all electrical lighting for further use)
: )
Railfan Pete.
Lookie here - Metro Transit Atlantis finally got its rolling stock!!
Fabulous!
(The original pic was great, too)
--Mark
Hey nice artwork! Why not you create a website of photo art? But anyway IT'S FUNNY!
Kind of gives a whole new meaning to One Fish, Two Fish, Red Fish, Blue Fish.:-)
wonderful pollute the ocean with asbestos ! glad i dont live in your world !!
this is for the 2 posters ahead of this post !...... he - he - he !!
With my apartment building in the background.
Peace,
ANDEE
With my apartment building in the background. REALLY that is where I live
Peace,
ANDEE
And I'm sure someone lives in that Redbird in the foreground, too.
HAHAHA
Peace,
ANDEE
Well, now it's time for you to evolve into a merman like the people of the lost city of Atlanta.
I HATE OLD TRAINS!!!
excuse me a question here please ! did you try to hold your camera level when you took your photo ??
also what photo shop program did you use ?? adobe? mgi? had to be a picture over a picture program etc..
oh yes ! other than that the photo was clear what type of film did you use & or was this a digital shot ??
the r-142 underwater shot i have was INSIDE the new junker while it was under water & had more imagination !!
now thats a real ...... LOL !!!
The Camera was level, the train was leaning into the turn at the time! NO PHOTO SHOP, NO COLOR CORRETION, THAT IS STRAIGHT FROM THE DIGITAL!
I have a $700 Digital SLR Type Camera, so I get them professional looking joints straight out the cam without and alterations!
Regards,
Trevor Logan
www.transitalk.com
wonderful ! your digital camera costs almost twice as much as mine does SONY DSCS30 & $ 300.oo
( discontinued ) replaced by dsps30 same price $ 300.oo !! ... lol !! oh well it does take nice pics !!
Do they sell a $700 SLR digicam? I work with a Canon D30 (a #2500 3.5Megapixel digital SLR) at work and THAT takes GREAT photos. Unfortunately, I don't own it. I use a Sony DSC-S50 similar salaam's (but the better version). Canon will come out with a new digital SLR in Q4 called the D60 (I think) it will be 6 Megapixel and it will cost $6000. My employer will buy it when it comes out. That means I get to use it! He will also get the IBM 1GB microdrive for the camera.
-Dan
Do they sell a $700 SLR digicam? I work with a Canon D30 (a #2500 3.5Megapixel digital SLR) at work and THAT takes GREAT photos.
I just bought a new Cannon Powershot G1 a couple of weeks ago and, once the air clears up a little bit, I'll be out roaming the system with it. So far I've found it takes images that easily rival my Nikon FM2 SLR.
Cheers,
PJ Dougherty
Publisher, Tracks of the NYC Subway
<<< Yet, Another Track Bed Photo by Me! >>>
Were you actually standing on the track bed to get that shot?
Standing right on it!
Trevor Logan
Mr Logan,
Since you took this photo from a non-public, track area, I have a question for you, Are you a TA or MTA employee?
Are you who you say you are?
YES I work for the IG......And you are?
Im wondering...... alot of folks say things on this board,that are not true, i just wanted to know. Thanks. ILL leT Trevor know that YOU are around.
If you at least want to talk to him Visit his website.
will he get fined? Or somthing else if he is not a TA or MTA employee?
Dear Mr. IG:
I am a NJT Employee!!!!!!!
Secondly (Explaining the photo), If anyone who works for the TA/MTA or is even a railbuff, knows that there is one hella lead off from the rear end of the southbound platform at Bedford Park Boulevard with a set of steps. I set myself of the ground, laying on my stomach, positioned the camera as such, and zoomed in to get the effect you see in the photo. So technically, I was in the public area with my arm and camera off the platform stairs.
So if ya'll want to send my arm & camera a ticket????? But it's just not worth it for a "photo."
Regards,
Trevor Logan
www.transitalk.com
Fuck IT, I admit, I was on the tracks, but just off the platform. I DID IT, I DID IT!!!!!!
I just realized it's uselss for me to lie about it to save my ass, I admit it! It was for the art and was WELL WORTH IT! and if I get a summons for it, so be it!!!!
I'd rather be a man and admit it, than lie!!!!!!!!
So now What..............
Regards,
Trevor Logan
Ok Mr. Logan. Since you have admitted violating NYS Penal code 14.379248610439247, you will receive a summons and the fine will be $100.
Now Mr. Logan, can you please give me your address so that I can mail the summons to you?
I thought he was going to jail!
See- typical MTA - Inspector General should be doing something more useful -
Like Inspecting/Examining new alternatives/routes for SI Express Bus commuters. - AND INVESTIGATING THE CROOKED ATLANTIC EXPRESS DEAL which caused Academy to pull out.
I'll give it to you on his behalf
123 Fake Street
Springfield, US
Open the closet, you'll find some fireworks at the top shelf for your pleasure and enjoyment:-)
the picture was very nice !! leave this man alone !!
What about Jerk?
I went today to my alma mater in the Bronx, Lehman College, to pickup a transcript.
Afterward, I took a look in the yard to see what was around.
I saw 3 trainsets of Redbirds, including a bunch of Worlds Fair cars.
The markings were either 5 or 6.
1)Are these working units, or are they being readied for Scrap?
2)All the way in the back of the yard is a R-62, which looks to have been in a pretty bad accident, as the middle is bashed in. Anybody know the background on this one? Could not see the number of this unit.
I'm not sure about the redbirds, but the R-62 is from the Union Square Wreck.
If I may borrow a line from a popular cyber-game "You don't know Jack" about the R-62, either. The Union Square wreck cars are long gone. The car that is there is car #1369 from a fender-bender at Tremont Ave.
Wasn't that right around the time of the Subway Series last year? That's what I thought the train was, but a post here not too long ago stated it as being from the 14 St. wreck. Sorry for the misinformation!
HERE'S a link to one of the Union Square wreck cars leaving Concourse Yard for the final time.
Peace,
ANDEE
Just above 238th Street-Neried Station!
Enjoy!
Regards,
Trevor Logan
www.transitalk.com
COOL! What did you use to take that photo?
the most honerable digital camera
I may be out there Monday. Are all those partitions removed along the White Plains Road line north of Bronx Park East yet?
--Mark
They're gone up to Allerton. From Burke on up, they're still there, although I think they're rmoving them there too. That may be why today I had to take an uptown 2 train to Gun Hill to get downtown 2 service.
I LOVE NEW TRAINS!!!
Trevor, taking photos for your new web site ????
And not a rubber tire in site !!!!
Enjoyed the photo ....
Mr t__:^)
In a speech given by Peter Vallone recently, he mentions stops on the Metro North, underground, in Manhattan.
Please provide me with any history - I never knew there was a stop before 125th street prior to this article!
In a speech given by Peter Vallone recently, he mentions stops on the Metro North, underground, in Manhattan.
Please provide me with any history - I never knew there was a stop before 125th street prior to this article!
There were underground stops at 59th, 72nd and 86th streets. The platform at 59th is easy to see from Metro North trains and is today is marked as an emergency exit. The other two are much harder to see, unless you're at the railfan window.
All three have been closed for decades.
In a speech given by Peter Vallone recently, he mentions stops on the Metro North, underground, in Manhattan.
Please provide me with any history - I never knew there was a stop before 125th street prior to this article!
There were underground stops at 59th, 72nd and 86th streets. The platform at 59th is easy to see from Metro North trains and is today is marked as an emergency exit. The other two are much harder to see, unless you're at the railfan window.
All three have been closed for decades.
Addendum: there also was another station south of 125th, but not undergound. It was on the elevated portion between 125th and the portal. IIRC, it was around 110th Street, and like the underground ones is long gone.
Actually, the underground stations are still there, but they're very very short. They were closed around 1900, I think. Maybe a bit earlier/later.
Opening them up now, woud be stupid and pointless, for a variety of reasons. It'd block up the tunnels like crazy, There's tons 'o diesel smoke in there from the FL-9s and GE units, and there's no way the conductor could get your ticket in time. Not to mention, they're all roughly 1 car length long, and extnding them and bringimng them to modern standards would be hopelessly expensie.
I don't get why Vallone talks about them, because opening them is a hopeless cause.
[I don't get why Vallone talks about them, because opening them is a hopeless cause.]
I think they could be reopened -- or opened, really, since they'd pretty much have to be built from scratch. But it would require some major (and I think long overdue) rethinking of service patterns.
It may not be necessary to open all three. Perhaps 86th Street is the only one that would really be useful.
[Perhaps 86th Street is the only one that would really be useful. ]
I don't think so, IMO the only useful one would be 59th, could relieve some crowds on Lex.
Arti
If only there were enough capacity to dedicate the outer two tracks on this line to rapid transit service...if nothing else you'd have some extra east side capacity to relieve the Lex.
Could become the Park Ave. local in the Bronx being what the 3rd ave. el had once been,, maybe a connection to ex New York, Westchester and Boston track from 133 st to E.180 and on to Dyre.
Oh well, is my first cup of coffee finally waking me up?
{It may not be necessary to open all three. Perhaps 86th Street is the only one that would really be useful.}
I think that's probably true as things now stand -- or maybe 86th and 72nd, if there's sufficient demand. But it really depends on what you do with the service. I think ideally you'd have enhanced service from the three Bronx RR branches down the outside tracks to the Broadway line to Lower Manhattan, with links to the Lex for local travel. Sort of a combo commuter/subway superexpress service (with different cars/vehicles for the two types of service).
Opening the stops would slow down the trains from Westchester at rush hours, and perhaps reduce the capacity, so I don't think it's a go. Unless you put in the LIRR to GCT, then diverted enough MetroNorth trains to Penn to reduce through traffic on the local tracks.
I agree with the sentiments expressed in your post completely.
In sum, I argue that commuter rail is a poor substitute for rapid transit. Vallone's decision to use the Park Avenue tunnels as a second-rate stand in for a 2nd Avenue subway is a very poor one for the following reasons:
1) NIMBY$:
It is fairly safe to say that you have a very influential grouping of people living along Park Avenue. Park Avenue is almost exclusively residential from 59th Street north, and there are some residences below 59th Street. None of these people are going to take to kindly to station stops interrupting their vast verdant avenue.
2) Expensive and difficult construction will required to upgrade station stops:
From my not-so-accurate personal measurements, Park Avenue is 115 feet wide in the region around 96th Street. The Avenue more or less retains a constant width. The Park Avenue tunnels, from an even less accurate measurement, are about 65 feet wide. The portal seems to be a little narrower, and the outside tracks diverge once in the tunnel, presumably to accommodate the thicker support walls.
This leaves a maximum of 50 feet for side platforms, with 25 feet on either side. While there is some existing station structure present, from what I gather, it is hopelessly undersized, and would require expansion. Park Avenue is lined with a lot of pre-war construction. Even excavating down to platform level 25 feet from the building face would require a massive underpinning effort.
You may be able to get 10 or 15 feet wide platforms on either side. I am not sure if this is ADA compliant. If you want center island platforms for all four tracks, there is no way there would be enough room.
You basically don't have much room for platforms before you wind up in someone's basement. The City has really moved away from shoehorning construction, possibly in light of ADA and other safety regulations. Construction may simply not be practical. In other words, it would cost even more than battling the NIMBY$.
3) Ridership data:
Every ridership study posted by the MTA has clearly indicated that the East Side demand for additional north-south transit lies east of the Lexington Avenue line. Why spend all this money to put additional transit where there is less demand for it? I could understand the argument for a 1st-Avenue subway, if the piers for the 59th Street Bridge weren't in the way.
4) Operational and scheduling:
Operational and scheduling difficulties with inbound and outbound trains are bound to increase with added station stops between 125th Street and GCT. That is a distance of only about 4 miles, with some stations being under a mile apart. From what I gather, commuter rail trains, unlike rapid-transit subway cars, do not accelerate and decelerate as easily or as rapidly. The dwell time is longer as well.
5) Inconvenience to the majority of other users:
The majority of riders travelling on MetroNorth are still medium to long distance. Why present an inconvenience to the suburban commuters who now have to put up with an extra 5-10 minutes every trip while their train makes three to four extra stops.
In conclusion, I passionately, yet respectfully, disagree with Vallone's poorly conceptualized idea. If money is wasted on a feasibility study, the answer will probably come back that adding station stops along Park Avenue would be cost prohibitive anyway.
MATT-2AV
The following is from Brennan's page of abandoned stations concerning the 86th St. station,
"Best view: From the end door window of any passing Metro North train. Also see entrances at street level in Park Avenue mall."
Does anyone know where the remnants of these street entrances are located on the mall? I have spent a lot of time in that neighborhood, and nothing ever jumped out to me as being that.
Dave, it's been a few years since I've been out there, but as of about 1997 there were either subway-type emergency exit panels in the mall shrubbery or slightly raised gratings that covered a set of steps, depending on the station. I only recall seeing one at each location, except 59th Street, which had two, IIRC.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Hi Dave ---
Thread back to my respone to Steve Boatti's post--both on Fri. Aug. 3rd - I was down inside the 86th Street MNRR station - there is one stairway on the north side of 86th Street just off the pedestrian island-sidewalk for persons crossing E86th Street along the westbound roadway..it is marked with one (maybe two) railings and is fenced off from the shrubbery (it is situated in a
cul-de-sac at the edge of the shrubbery) and is quite visible. Down the stairs to a landing - about 6+ steps down - is a gate. There was a trap door at sidewalk level at the top of the stairs - but sometimes that is in up (open) position but the gate at the landing is closed. You must duck your head to get thru the "doorway" portal as it is only 5' or so high...definitely an MNRR employee entryway and never a passenger entryway. It is a narrow stairway about 30 to 33" wide from side walls. There appeared to be a utility building on the southbound platform near the north end of the platform--cannot remember if it was an electrical related building or maintenance - also
the platforms slightly taper at both ends as the tunnel was built wider and the outer local tracks curve outward from the two center tracks to make room for the short (about 200 feet appx.long) island platforms. My last visit was in the mid 1980's and the street level appearance could have been
changed at sidewalk level since then - I would
doubt that as it was in excellent condition and served it purpose. After the gate (thru the "doorway") a set of steel steps turned right at a steel landing, and continued down against the partition wall at the east (back)edge of the platform (walling off the adjacent S/B express track from the platform) to the high-level platform.
Incandecent lamps with round dish-type reflectors
hung from piping from the tunnel ceiling - definitely a dark, dank and sinister lighting effect
compared to normal incandescent lighting standards
of even the early days of the "subway" stations--but sufficient. My previous post described more. It appears this service stairway's initial descent from the sidewalk is directly over the westerly edge of the southbound center express track in the arch of its tunnel roof. Also, it was evening on my escorted trip there so that made things darker down below - no daylight coming from the esplanade planter air grates!! I doubt you would be able to get personal
access to any station openings unless workmen were
down below and left the gates /traps above open - and then you would have some explaining to do if you were discovered...a dangerous situation at best.
Best to videotape the stations from a N/B & S/B MNRR
commuter train via the storm door window!! Then replay at Slo-motion to better visualize. The tunnel lighting is better (flourecent) than 15 years ago!
Hope this post shed some "light" on your question.
Regards - Joe
Based on their appearance, it's hard to believe these were ever in revenue service. They are small and look like emergency exits. Were they ever in actual use?
To Steve Boatti;
The stations held about 4 small railroad rapid transit style open platform coaches excluding the steam engine. They were built when the railroad was a partially open cut and originally had high level platforms. The coaches were in or around 50+ feet in length - rear platform of last car and front platform of first car behind tender were out of platform limits. I was down in the 86th Street
station back in the mid 1980's with a railroad cop friend (I am an former-P.O.) and we entered thru a
non-public service stairway in the planter island sidewalk on Park Ave. via a steel sidewalk-level
trap door. This station had high level platforms
serving only the local tracks - the express track sides of platforms have a concrete wall with small
half-moon arches at the 6' high (appx.) level for
I presume, air-pressure flow and ventilation. The
station columns were round with semi-ornate flare-
work at tops, and footings at the base - at track level, similar to IRT round columns on the old 4th
Avenue 1904 East Side Route (and probably same as on
upper Broadway IRT 1904 route). Small parts of the high level platforms had been removed on my visit.
I am not sure if the high level platforms were built
when the tunnels were built - or added later.However
it would make sense to me that they were built WITH
the tunnel program as high level for faster passenger loading, as well as passenger safety in the tunnel confines. Commuter Rapid Transit Passenger train service
stopped on these stations after about 1904. (You should note that 125th street and 138th Streets were low level platforms.) The stations had, above & across the tracks, stone station houses in the Park Avenue Safety Island, which was twice as wide when Park Avenue was built "new" as a boulevard of the wealthy in concert with the Park Avenue Tunnel improvements, back in the early part of the 1900's. These station houses were similar in function and access as the ones built on the Bronx Park Avenue open cut such as at Tremont Avenue, etc, etc. These station houses were removed in the period between 1910 and 1915 and Park Avenue was again re-built in the 1920's with a narrower vent-openings in the safety island with pedestrian walkways and planters with flowers and shrubs--but the island still remained wider than we presently see today. The
"original" islands had larger "open" areas with fencing surrounding the open areas in the open-beam style tunnel below Murray Hill (70th St appx.) for ventilation and light for the tunnels (in daylight at least) and some walkways similar to the ones over the IRT under upper Broadway. The stone circular-roofed tunnel north of there to 96th Street (the original end of the stone tunnel) had large
rectangular gratings and small walkways parallel to Park Avenue roadways - with safety fencing along the curb lines. The smaller islands these days have small square and circular grated vents and of
course, no pedestrian walkways running thru them.
These islands were again rebuilt in the 1940's to make Park Avenue one lane wider on each side, and had new flowers and shrubs planted, and modern "Triboro Bridge" type streetlights along the avenue!!
This also covered over most of the "open" tunnel
construction below Murray Hill and required smaller vents in the stone tunnel sections north of Murray Hill...making the tunnels considerably darker even with those (pre-flourescent lamp era) incandescent
bulb tunnel lamps.
The 110th street station was high level platformed- the platforms were built over and out-rigged beyond the edge of the stone viaduct walls, today the portals to the stairways being filled in with brick/stone in the cross-street sidewalk underpasses. The stairways to the street portals
ran down the sides of the stone walls. Some faint
remnants of the attachments and construction are still evident.
Somewhere in my photo archives I have a few rare
views of the old station houses spanning the tracks
but the views are from a few blocks away and other than seeing the appearance of the station house(s)
they lack the advantage of close up details. I also found a view of the 110th street station from about 1880.
Note: The original Harlem open cut (similar to the one in the Bronx today up to Fordham Road) also
had high level platforms at 125h Street PRIOR to that cut being filled in and replaced by the
steel elevated structure just above 110th street.
The elevated (new) 125th street station received LOW
level platforms which like all other low level
platforms north of the Harlem River, were later made high-level for the Metro-North and Connecticut-DOT M-type commuter cars!
Hope this answers your post question!!
Thanks for that good info!
FWIW, the center islands on Broadway don't have walkways. They're even narrower than the current ones on Park.
TO David Greenberger; (FWIW)
David -to get YOUR facts straight - I am now looking
at TWO 8 x 10 B&W photos of Broadway taken in 1900
ALSO - ONE 8x10 B&W Photo on Broadway taken 1895
AND - ONE 4 1/2 x 4 B&W photo on Broadway 8/22/1900
DESCRIPTIONS PER GROUPING posted above------
(a) Photo looking NORTH along center island at corner of 73rd Street. Scene shows a walkway
running as far north as can be seen ( a few blocks)
along centerline of walkway appx. 8 feet wide with
appx. 8' grass planters and elm trees lining both sides of walkway. Just outside each grass planter strip are street railway (conduit) tracks in what today would be the innermost lanes. At end of the central walkway at the Broadway corner of/
at 73rd St. is a crosswalk for pedestrians crossing the avenue and the island.
(b) Photo looking NORTH along center islamd at corner of 72nd Street (wide crosstown street) with same details as photo (a) above - but with a safety
railing across end of walkway as streetcar tracks
(shown at left of walkway) switch off Broadway and curve eastbound in front of end of safety island.
(c) Looking south along northbound east-curb lane near 114th Street showing a N/B horse car running on track alongside the center safety island and showing the dual grass & elm tree planters on each side of the appx. 8' wide center walkway with pedestrians
on this near mid-block part of central north-south
island walkway.
(d) Loking southwesterly along northbound inner
roadway (and streetcar track) across center island
and its n/s walkway with southbound TAR's railway
conduit-powered car passing alongside the west edge
of walkway - showing the grass planters and elm trees paralleling both sides of central walkway.
NOTE: There appear to be NO iron railings either paralleling the walkway sides NOR the curb edges of the island planter strips each side of walkway.
An obvious intelligent person such as yourself should have taken into account that my posting re: the Park Avenue "islands" and their original walkways (which I also have photos of in the early 1900 period of the century) related to the islands of Park AND BROADWAY "BEFORE" both of our birth years-and what is seen presently along both avenues
today. Photographs I have of Broadway in the early 1920's show the walkways were redesigned with FULL
planters from curb to curb and NO walkways - as you refer (FWIW) to in your response post to me. The
obvious tone of my text was describing the walkways
circa 1900 thru 1910 when the IRT subway and Park
Avenue Tunnel Improvements were effected - purely to
word-describe the then-physical layouts. BTW - the original Broadway (with walkways) island pre- 1920's era appear to be the same width appx. as the post
(and present) Broadway safety islands - the former
central walkways gave way to planters to connect with the original ones on each side. They obviously could not have been widened in the 1920's period due to the presence of the streetcar tracks immediately beside them in the inner-lane roadway - so their
relative widths remain the same from the late 1800's to present day. Hope this little educatory post further inform you...but thanks much for your imput and review of my Park Ave. post. !! Regards - Joe
My apologies. I thought you were comparing the old Park Avenue to the current Broadway.
TO DAVE (Greenberger:)
Thanks, Dave - and -- the research I had to do on my end was interesting - havent looked at those pics in many years - and others on Broadway AND Park in the after-1920's island-reconstructions - also somewhat
re-enlightening to me too!! Anyway, as long as you and others on this site got some valid, interesting info and imput from me...that is what the enjoyment on my end is - and Daves P's great subtalk-site is really about !!
Regards - Joe
Go to 86th and Lex. In the Park ave median, there is evidence of an old exit (on the north side of 86th), IIRC.
today on the Franklin Shuttle around 530pm I saw 2919 North Motor coupled to 2923 SOuth Motor. The SOuth car had normal roll signs whuile the North car had the flat,non adjustable signs.
Is this a permanent odd couple or a temporary setup.
The R-68s assigned to the Franklin Avenue Shuttle (2916-2924) are single units. They were never converted to 4-car sets. Any car in the group can run with any other car in the group.
David
Oh no a single Hippo got loose, look out World she loose in the system somewhere.
BTW my grandson loves them off-hours, a rolling jungle jims with hurdles (seats). I have this fond memory of him holding onto the bar of a R-62. He walked up the wall to try and see out the front door. Later he played peek-a-boo with the T/O (car was stopped in a station for a signal) he leaned out the door & T/O leaned out his window.
Mr t__:^)
I thought you meant heypaul and Qtraindash7 were hanging out riding the line together....;-)
I thought Heypaul only rides the Independent Line---also BMTman you should be on the Franklin Shuttle so you can get your Edward Luciano("look ma, no hands") imitation perfected for 9/28 & 9/29 at Shoreline.
Only if I have fellow my Brighton Beach Brethren (and Erasmus Alumni) -- Paul Matus and Bill Newkirk -- along for the ride...;-D
BMTman
1) Why do they need windshield wipers on E trains?
2) Wouldn't it be better if subway car doors opened up instead of side to side. Wouldn't there be less chance of someone being caught in the doors. Besides the train dispatcher already tells the conductor to open up or to close down
3) Why not run trains of 1/2 IRT cars and 1/2 BMT cars. This way no matter where the train was, some of the cars would fit in the station. Wouldn't this make sense. We could run #7 trains down to Stillwell Avenue.
4) Why not put video cameras in the front of the train and have monitors in each car. This way we could have transverse cabs and the railfans could still see out front.
5) Do you think it would be a good idea for the TA to open a driving school for train operators - sort of like drivers ed. We could charge $25 a lesson and open it to the public?
6) What do you think of literacy tests?
Look I'm not trying to start a fued IIGHT.So her:
1.The same reason windshield wipers are needed on all trains.
2.No.Bad subway architecture.
3.BMT trains are too wide for IRT Tunnel and IRT trains are to narrow for BMT tunnels.
4.Too expensive for the MTA
5.Maybe it is a good Idea
6.Just another way to call someone dumb.
I have 1 question for you.Are you going to put up any more questionares or are you done?
#3
IRT Trains are too narrow for BMT tunnels?
- Type too fast, and you play right into his hand...
Hehe. Nice one Henry.
Railfan Pete.
1.- Just in case the 53rd St Tube springs a leak.
2. Personally, I've always liked this idea myself.
3. Don't we already run 7 trains to Coney Island? Actually, I've had this one put to me by a couple of TSSs, only they wanted to see if we knew car classes from the car numbers.
4. I like it. Now we can PROVE that we're being delayed by a red signal.
5. - Some rail museum in California does this with a steam loco, but I think for much more than $25 a head.
6.- I counted 8 mistakes in your post. Do you want more of an answer?
5. - Some rail museum in California does this with a steam loco, but I think for much more than $25 a head.
Also Belfast & Moosehead Lake in Maine (with a Swedish steam engine) and, at least at one time, the Valley Railroad in Essex, Connecticut - and perhaps others as well.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
LOL!!
You know, I think you hit on something there - the MTA should have a web-cam mounted on trains goind dosin each line - and maybe charge people like 25 cents to view the live video stream - they could make enough to finish 2nd av!
well... maybe not... but it'd be worth a shot...
2) Alright, picture this. The train is crowded, people are trying to squeeze into the car, suddenly the conductor decides enough is enough, and the door comes up out of the floor to close, impaling 3 people in various cars in their crotch area.
Or better yet, the doors close downwards from the top of the frame, and a baby carraige is in the doorway, baby dies, MTA gets sued, no more 2nd avenue line for 30 more years thanks to lack of funds.
3) Better yet, why not just run cars on their tracks as normal, but in 1-2 car sets. That way 3 or 4 of these trains can fit into one station at a time (signaling would have to be re-done or removed in stations), but maybe the train at the front takes a few people and moves on, the one behind it goes up to the front of the station and takes some and then moves out, and so on.
Alright, or better yet, for rush hour fun, use regular size trains and instead of having it come to a stop, let it roll thru the station with doors open, so people just jump on and off. Ignore the fact that many cars will be in the tunnel at any given time, make people sign waivers upon entry (if people get injured, which they WILL, no damn lawsuits) and then we don't need cops fining people for holding open doors. "You wanna put your hand through that door, go right ahead buddy...."
no more 2nd avenue line for 30 more years thanks to lack of funds.
You mean it'll be built sooner than otherwise?
THIS IS ESPECIALLY FOR TRAIN DUDE
2) Alright, picture this. The train is crowded, people are trying to squeeze into the car, suddenly the conductor decides enough is enough, and the door comes up out of the floor to close, impaling 3 people in various cars in their crotch area.
Or better yet, the doors close downwards from the top of the frame, and a baby carraige is in the doorway, baby dies, MTA gets sued, no more 2nd avenue line for 30 more years thanks to lack of funds.
What in the world are you stating? PICTURE THIS: Deciding on the design of the car-types, WHAT kind of train closes doors coming from the FLOOR or the CEILING of the train?! You just aren't thinking about the logic. IF the doors closed from the ceiling, the ceiling of the subway tubes and stations JUST WON'T ALLOW IT.
3) Better yet, why not just run cars on their tracks as normal, but in 1-2 car sets. That way 3 or 4 of these trains can fit into one station at a time (signaling would have to be re-done or removed in stations), but maybe the train at the front takes a few people and moves on, the one behind it goes up to the front of the station and takes some and then moves out, and so on.
The REASON BEING is that the MTA CANNOT SCHEDULE 1-2 CAR SETS OF TRAINS TO BE SIMULTANEOUSLY PULLED INTO THE STATION. You really aren't using your head at all when you stated your opinion (facts) on your response to SubTalk. Imagine the T/A trying to fix ALL OF THE SUBWAY SYSTEM's SIGNALS! It is a LOT HARDER than you think. If you still aren't convinced, YOU TRY MODFIFYING THE SIGNALS ALL BY YOURSELF! THEN IF YOU CAN'T, JUST KEEP YOUR MOUTH SHUT, THE T/A IS TOILING ALL THEY CAN TO PROVIDE OPTIMUM SERVICE FOR SORRY BUTTS LIKE YOU LEISURING AROUND THE SUBWAY. It IS more than just screwing in a screwdriver. You NEED COMPUTER AND YARD WORKING EXPERIENCE!
Alright, or better yet, for rush hour fun, use regular size trains and instead of having it come to a stop, let it roll thru the station with doors open, so people just jump on and off. Ignore the fact that many cars will be in the tunnel at any given time, make people sign waivers upon entry (if people get injured, which they WILL, no damn lawsuits) and then we don't need cops fining people for holding open doors. "You wanna put your hand through that door, go right ahead buddy...."
You CAN'T BOARD OR DISCHARGE PASSENGERS when the train is MOVING. That is a serious SAFETY HAZARD. You are talking about 30 to 40 tons of weight carrying you and if you decide to jump off, you might as well be paying your own hospital bill for a broken ankle or foot. Try it yourself. I know at a train festival where a person was trying to get off a moving NJT train. That was moving 3mph TOPS and we're talking about 52 tons of solid STEEL and ALUMINUM, boy that person stumbled on the rocks when he tried to jump off AT THAT SPEED!. (Nothing was broken).
ALSO, TIME WON'T ALLOW IT. IF A STATION IS FILLED WITH 500 RUSH HOUR PASSENGERS, the TIME that it will TAKE FOR THE TRAIN to MOVE THE ENTIRE LENGTH OF THE PLATFORM IS TOO SHORT. TRAINS MUST BE STOPPED TO SERVE PASSENGERS. JUST THINK ABOUT THE LOGIC!! FOR YOUR SAKE!!!
I know someone who placed a thick book (small one) between the doors of the R46 cars on the World Trade Ctr. bound E train at Jamaica Center. The doors couldn't close, so the conductor opened the doors and served that passenger.
OOH.Hoo hoo. Gotta watch out for those R142's and R142A's. When their doors close, it's literally IMPOSSIBLE TO FORCE THEM OPEN, because of the fact that they're ELECTRONICALLY OPERATED, NOT WITH LATCHES.
By the way, you don't get fined for holding open doors, unless if a MTA cop is standing right in front of you.
Railfan Pete.
Just to clarify, my entire response to #3 was a joke. The hint should've been when I suggested that platform full of people, and a subway train full of people can switch places while the train is moving.
Sorry for any inconvenience and increased blood pressure this might've caused.
So much for a joke... My Apologies for you are sincere and honest. Good luck.
Railfan Pete.
OOH.Hoo hoo. Gotta watch out for those R142's and R142A's. When their doors close, it's literally IMPOSSIBLE TO FORCE THEM OPEN, because of the fact that they're ELECTRONICALLY OPERATED, NOT WITH LATCHES.
Electronically operated? What does this have to do with anything? You can't force the doors open because of the mechanics of the door operator - it's a screw-type drive.
Alex, please do not try to confuse pete with facts. He's on the verge of an overload.
Hey moron, don't you know SARCASM when you see it? The entire post was PURPOSELY absurd.
BTW, if they wanted doors that could open upwards, they'd simply use roll-down doors. Ever see a mini-mall close up? Same thing.
-Hank
Well, as long as we're doing this - why not abolish the station platforms entirely, let the passengers step down on the tracks and just equip the trains with scoops on the front like the movie "Soylent Green?" Then they won't be delayed at stops at all ... they'd actually run ON TIME! :)
Soylent Green is....PEOPLE!
Peace,
ANDEE
What about the disabled? Oh no.
Hey, i really like #5.....i'd do it
Oddly enough, I took my college intern on a field trip about 3 weeks ago. She received some basic training and then took a shot at the R-46/R-44 simulator at the RTO training center. She didn't do too well as was to be expected but even she said that she would have paid to try it. Incidently, she did the E line from Parsons Archer to Continental Avenue.
Yeah, i tried to get some information from the MTA about the college intern program, but got no reply at all. I would have applied for it wholeheartedly.
Contact me via e-mail and I'll give you the info
You know, after reading all the well-informed posts from Railfan Pete and MrX2001, I'm actually looking forward to providing Salaam with proff.
-Hank
Hank, I really have to agree with you. Salaam is really looking more intelligent these days..
as i heard, coney island yard rebuilds constantly the trucks that you see on all the current models on the ind, irt and bmt. but since the irt and soon bmt gets new cars that uses different typ of trucks that coney island will not rebuild, who will rebuild them and if they are to be teken care of by another company, can they rebuild them or do they dispose them? why can't coney island rebuild them?
There are actually 2 truck shops, Coney island and 207th St. 207th St will obviously need to tool up to rebuild the newer trucks first. The transition should be a smooth one and with appropriate training, should not impact on service.
Of course there will be a large number of spare trucks around. While certain trucks are dedicated to certain fleets, many will be scrapped along with the cars that rode on them. Traction motors and shoe beams will be salvaged first.
1. Why dont they make a transfer between the Grand St Station and the Bowery Station? The (Former) B,D, and Q lines pass right underneath. Before the Manhattan Bridge flip. I used to take a B or D from W4 when the F never came and ride it to Grand (This I usually do at 3 or 4 in the morning going home from the clubs). I would walk out of the System and walk back in at Bowery and catch a J train.
2. What is that "Empty Door" you see when walking down the stairs of the Brooklynbound platform of the Bowery Station? The door is right in front of you but situated on a wall. Ive noticed that it looks like some kinda room up above the platform. And part of that same "room" there seems to be two very small walkways (JUST LOOK UP THEY ARE THERE!!!), It looks like some homeless person has his bed up there or something of the sort.
So if anyone can help me out :)
Anthony
Every time I look at a subway map from across the car, and look at the area of track in Bklyn from 36th St to Bay Pkwy, it looks like it's still Orange+Brown. Upon closer inspection, of cource, it's not.
Try it.
The illusion probably results from the type of lighting that is used in the car which may make the colors appear to be orange and brown instead of yellow and brown.
#3 West End Jeff, formerly BMTJeff
I visited Winslow Junction this morning.
My pix at Winslow Junction
I know the SNJ has been there for years, but what exactly are they doing? Have they run any trips?
They run trips every day. It's called freight and it makes them money.
SRNJ has two disconnected operations. In addition to their operations out of Winslow (including stone trains on NJT to Pleasantville), they have a presence in Salem where they run to Swedesboro at least twice a week (TTh) and do local switching in Salem every day except Sunday.
They ran a "trip" today from Mannington Mills in Salem, where they keep their power because of vandalism on their own accessible property, to the Anchor glass plant (Snapple bottles are made there) to retrieve an empty and again to deliver 3 loads (soda ash and limestone). Additional switching jobs involved too many loaded 100 ton hoppers for their GE 44-tonner to handle (wheel slippage), so their F7A was revved up. The F7A (painted O&W) is coupled to GP9 #100, but the Geep was not fired up; just used as a cab control car for switching in the direction that its cab was facing. Bill the engineer called it a "whisper cab". :)
I haven't looked at my pictures yet, but if I deem them worthy, I'll post them eventually. Eric the conductor was antsy about me wandering around taking pictures, so most of my time was spent in the engines.
I put my pics of the SRNJ Salem trip on Yahoo Photos. I don't know how to add text, so it's just captioned pics.
Salem, NJ, 8-3-01 Southern Railroad of NJ
Where in New Jersey is Winslow junction, and how does one get there?
The pictures were great, and I would like to get a few of my own.
Its 3 miles west of Hammonton on the NJT Atlantic City line. The Pennsy, Reading and Jersey Central all came together there.
You may email me for driving directions.
This is also where the Blue Comet left the CNJ Southern Division on its way to Atlantic City.
You get on Rt. 73 East (from NJTP or I-295). You'll pass under a RR bridge, over Rt. 30, the road will loose its median and you'll pass under another RR bridge. After that you'll look for a fire tower and a big island median thing w/ a westbound only traffic light. You get off there (left) and drive that that road past 2(or 1) traffic lights. You'll see a RR grade crossing. Make a LEFT as soon as you cross over the tracks. You can't miss it. Park between the black RR bridge and the white RR bridge on the big gravel area to the right of the road.
You'll see a RR grade crossing. Make a LEFT as soon as you cross over the tracks.
That's the SECOND GRADE CROSSING. The first is an industrial siding a couple blocks before the main line.
Not on the route I take. There is only one.
You say that three rail lines came together at that point - aside from the Atlantic City line and the freight line you photographed, what about the third one? Could there be a viable connection allowing service from say, Newark to Atlantic City without any need to go to Philadelphia? A crewman on the Atlantic City line once told me that after a fire on the North Jersey Coast line, service was cut back to Bayhead Junction from a location south of there, the name of which escapes me at present. Due to the problems with acquiring land for a ROW, the line cannot be extended any further from that point. If there is another route around that, what would be the holdup to establishing service - outside of the dreaded NIMBY?
The third line, now the SRNJ from Winslow Jct south, was the Jersey Central line from North Jersey to Bridgeton. Some of it is missing and/or paved over north of Winslow, but most of the ROW is still there.
The line diverged from the North Jersey Coast Line at Red Bank and went through Lakehurst.
The route is intact through to Lakehurst/Toms River (they just tore down the old signal bridge at Lakehurst). South of there the rails are in place, but the line is heavily overgrown. I mean we're talking trees. Some of the grade crossings have been paved over w/in the last 4 years and in some places the RoW is being erroded by water and/or ATV's. However the RoW is instact w/ all the bridges.
I've been away for a couple of weeks so this might have already been covered, but I managed to ride the Portland Streetcar a few times last week. I showed up to ride on opening day (7/20) if things were going well. Things weren't going so well - cars were often blocked by parked vehicles (Portland drivers haven't had to deal with streetcars for 51 years, outside of MAX, so they may have forgotten a few things?). All 5 cars on the property were in service but they ran packed all day. I waited about 20 minutes only to have 2 cars show up unboardable.
I took a short ride on 7/21. Still a bit crowded, still free. The big problem on 7/20 was attributed to not enough cars in service (all 5 were running - 2 more are coming but not until next year) - this meant 10 minute headways, not nearly enough service for the crowds - and equipment problems (crowded cars couldn't close doors or too many people standing on the bridge plate so it wouldn't extend or retract (the rear double-door has a bridge plate for wheelchairs)). Vehicles parked too far from curbs and blocking tracks were not mentioned as problems, although news media had reported this on 7/20. (Parking lanes are defined with edge stripes to remind drivers to get close to curbs, but truck mirrors could still be a problem.)
On 7/23, I returned. Service was supposed to start costing $1.20 outside of the fareless zone, but ticket machines on the cars were not operating, so unless one purchased a Tri-Met ticket from MAX machines or other vendors, no ticket. The machines only accept coins, a fact not advertised. Service was running on 'normal' schedules (15-minute headways) but still crowded. One thing I noticed was the slow speed of the service and the wait at turns protected by traffic signals - the cars must get their own signal to turn, since they often turn against traffic, but there seems to be no priority for the cars and they often had to wait for the signal at these locations.
For some reason, at the Portland State end, the line stub-ends into a single track, but boarding/alighting is not allowed at the 4th Ave end of the stub, even though the car waits here for a short layover to allow the operator to change ends. Riders can remain on the car, but the last stop before the stub is on 5th Ave, and the first stop afterward is on the private right-of-way thru Portland State at 6th Ave.
I rode again on 7/25 and noted the same problems. Car 001 had to stop extending the bridge plate since the crowd was too dense and the plate couldn't extend, so a handful of wheelchair patrons had to be passed up.
The Skoda cars are nice but noisy on the rails, especially on special work. The Vintage Trolley serves the line on weekends on 1-hour headways - I can only imagine what that must be like, given the small capacity of the VT's! 514 was at the Streetcar yard (off Northrup beneath I-405, at 16th Ave) when I rode, so I assume that's the car providing the service. Streetcar headways are 20 minutes on weekends, with Sunday service starting later than Saturdays.
The Streetcar is nice but it's no MAX, and it was getting more than its share of local lambasting given its not-very-ideal service to downtown Portland (5 blocks from the Transit Mall) and its $56 million price tag.
The puzzling part to me is its connection to MAX, which is at 10th & Morrison. Maybe the idea was to avoid facing-point turnouts, but the connection requires an awkward reverse move through the intersection (it comes off MAX's westbound track facing eastbound to the Streetcar's northbound track facing southbound).
Portland's MAX extension to Portland Airport is slated to open on 9/10. At that time, MAX will gain colors. The Airport service, which will terminate at the downtown loop/former end of the line at 12th Ave, will become the Red Line. The main line service (Gresham to Hillsboro) will become the Blue Line.
Several training runs were operating on the Airport extension during the last two weeks, mainly single-car low-floor units. At least six of the low-floors will get luggage racks on an experimental basis.
"Red Line", "Blue Line" ... where have I heard those terms before? Weren't they copyrighted by another transit property? So Portland is joining the major leagues; it's naming its rail lines after colors. How very original.
Sometimes I get the impression that transit organizations are run by apple-cheeked MBAs raised in automobile suburbs without any exposure to rail systems. They are hired straight out of college, totally bereft of original thought, and go to taxpaer-paid conferences and trade in-fashion inanities and manage to dupe an unsuspecting public.
Portland's a nice enough place, even though they hate Southern Californians. Here's an admittedly non-original thought: Name your rail lines after the places they go to. I know, dumb idea, totally out of fashion.
I was a little surprised myself that Portlanders gave in to the popular way of doing things. It seems fairly obvious enough to have the East-West Line, the Airport Line, the North Line (coming in '04), etc. What the colors will bring is beyond me. Of course, I had the same feeling when SEPTA tried to 'color' its lines in the mid-70's - only the out-of-towners ride the Blue, Orange and Green Lines, and I doubt if anyone even knows what the Red, Brown and Purple Lines are any more.
I'm posting this as a favor for my boss (we just finished mounting an exhibit by kids about the High Line at the Municipal Art Society at Madison and 51st--has some good pictures of the structure and the neighborhood around it, as well as the basic history of it--it's designed and put together by 12-16 year olds and it's short, but we did get to go up on it and get some pictures from it, so it might be worth a quick visit).
Anyhow, she told me that during renovations at the local stations on Broadway, they uncovered original tilework. Does anyone know what's going to happen to it? Will they re-cover it, restore it, or what?
Thanks
Seth
With the removal of the 1969-71 cinder block tiles, the original BMT tilework is to be restored in it's original form on all the stations along the Broadway local, with the possible exception of 49th St., which was redone in a different style around 1972-73.
Current policy is to restore/recreate original when renovation is done.
For Broadway manhattan the only station left is Rector and of course 49th.
Remaining refrigerator tile stations are the 4th ave Brooklyn Local Stops (77, Bay Ridge,53,45,25,Prospect,9th,Union.) I expect that whenever they are done(I dont have a timetable) the original will be restored. Already at one of them, there isd a hole int he new stuff and you can see the classic underneath. At the partt-time exits, the original is still in place.
Union Street has already been rehabilitated, and the "refrigerator tile" (tile in a refrigerator???) was retained, although somewhat modified.
David
Correct, they merely added the "flying people" plaques to the existing 70s tile, and re-did the trackside curtain walls. No traces of the original "U" mosaics can be seen, what a shame. I suggest removing the 70s tile behind the fare control area, like they have it at the other 4th Avenue local stops. At southbound 25th Street, there is a reproduction stretch of frieze with a new "25" plaque, near the fare control area. Looks pretty good.
wayne
Considering the condition of the wall tiles (old and faded - they
did not fare well over the years behind the refrigerator tiles) I think they will be covered over by similar new tiles. The mosaics will be restored or replaced as needed. Some will probably be removed (i.e. Astor Place sign at 8th St - it is covered up by tape at the moment) as they are no longer applicable. They will most likely wind up in the Museum's collection.
By the way, if you look at the Canal St station (N,R) everything there is "new" but was done in the style of the original - with embeleshments (the mosaic name tablets CANAL STREET are nothing like the originals which were like the ones in all the other BMT stations).
When was the Astor Place exit closed? Other than the taped-over signs, I don't think there's any evidence on the platform or on the street.
I really don't know but I would say at least in the 1960's when the then new tiles were put in place. It was probably a stair which was removed completely or an exit opening to a passage way which was covered over (I'll bet it led to the old John Wanamaker store).
Just as an aside - how many of you know that at 110th St on the 6 on the uptown platform there was an additional exit towards the north end? It was blocked off about 10 some odd years ago - all that remains is a door. That shows how well things can be hidden.
I'm impressed by how well the old IRT crossunder at Columbus Circle was hidden. It was open until 10-12 years ago. I don't even remember where the staircases were. Now the IND platforms double as IRT crossunders. (I still think it would make sense to open a section of the center platform as the designated crossunder.)
I know where the one on the SB platform is/was. But it has been a long time so I don't remember where it was on the NB - actually I think it came out at the foot of the stairs leading to the IND.
Speaking of hidden - the covered staircase to the underpass at the 42nd St Shuttle at Times Square is very easy to find (just look for the glass block circle skylights near track 1). But once they finish (if ever) the refurbishing of the TS complex who knows if we will ever see it again.
OK - I know someone is going to ask - Underpass at Times Square???. Way back in 1904 when the original line opened Times Square was a local stop. To get from uptown to downtown there was an underpass - the stairs on the uptown side are still there (track 4). When the shuttle was created and the pedestrian crossover created at the north end there was no longer a need for the underpass.
That underpass is located right between the BMT Broadway express tracks. Walk to the north end of the Times Square station and you'll see where the tracks spread apart just inside the tunnel.
The tablets and friezes at the Broadway local stations will be cleaned, repointed, regrouted and reglazed as best they can be. This should result in the mosaic looking pretty much as it did when it was a few years old. They will probably put new white tile up, and the tablets will then be recessed. Where you see the cinderblock walls (i.e. 23rd Street), they may put up recreations of the existing mosaics; they have gotten VERY good at doing this lately (perhaps Mr. Vickers is coaching them from the other side), witness some of the recreations found in spots on the Canarsie line stations.
wayne
The recreations at 66th are just amazing.
Yes, they're recreations. Sure, they have the added "LINCOLN CENTER" text, which was obviously not original. But walk over to the far north end of the platform and you'll see the originals, which are missing those words and are somewhat dirty but otherwise match beautifully.
At Grand Central the name tablet on the wall at the north end of the local platform (#6 is about 25% recreation).
The people who they have doing that work are very talented - they certainly have more patience for that type of work that I could ever have.
Does anyone know what those PCCs are doing in the Brooklyn Navy Yard? They're kinda over in the same vacinity as the city vehicle auction yard--clearly visible from Kent Ave. There's got to be 15 of them in orange, red and white, with "RTA" on the side. Why are they in Brooklyn, and where are they from? (I suppose I could ask why there's one SEPTA car on 4th Ave, or why the Boston cars are in Red Hook, since they just sit there, but the Navy Yard ones seem like they might serve some purpose, concidering how many of them there are.)
They are ex-Cleveland (Shaker Rapid) PCC's that were sold to Buffalo for a never built extension of their Light Rail line. They have been acquired by the Brooklyn Trolley Museum for the BTM's streetcar line in the Red Hook section. Two of the principals in the BTM are Bob Diamond and Jan Lorenzen, both of whom post here reglarly.
Yep - these 12 ex-Shaker cars (and maybe another if RTA donates car #66) are to be used for a streetcar line from Red Hook to the Brooklyn Bridge Park and around the downtown Brooklyn area. We are currently renovating operational car #70 as an example. STAY TUNED!!
*Att'n Dave Pirrman -
I think we need to update the section on the BHRA - email me offlist to get current photos and details of the work accomplished so far. There's alot more done than is seen sitting outside. I need to get you new pictures of ex-Boston 3303 inside the shop and the work being done on 70!
Jan
Thanks for the info. More questions, though, if you don't mind. Is there a map of the streetcar's run? Is this going to turn a profit? Be better service than the current MTA busses in Red Hook? When is this going to happen? Why mix Boston and Shaker Heights cars? I used to poke around the Arboway, where Boston was storing the remains of their fleet, and they had a bunch of pre-war cars that had been refurbed at least once. I was lead to believe that these were in much better shape than the picture windows. Then, some thirty or so picture windows got junked, while three or six or whatever you have went to Brooklyn. The refurbed pre-wars? Seems they sat around, and then got junked. Why didn't you pick up those, instead of the Shaker Heights and or picture window Boston cars? While I rue the day the PCC was phazed out of Brooklyn in favor deisel, I can't imagine this being practical. I hope you prove me wrong. --Panama
Rode this fine line's PCCs many times today and loved every moment of it. However, a careful examination of the new track just beyond the current end of service at Franklin Avenue raises a few questions. There are three tracks beyond the current loop, one of which buts into a line pole just before crossing the street that leads to the extended right-of way. One rail extends beyond the pole and has not been cropped and there are additional pre-curved rails laying there. Two expensive crossovers (do they have an endless supply of money for this project?) feed this short third center track and it is not clear just what the alignment will be from the new station to the line extension when the loop is removed. There is a functioning scissors crossover just south of the new Franklin Avenue station, near Heller Parkway, and the alignment of the curved siding and what will be the new inbound track from the extension into Franklin Avenue station is not clear. Anybody know of a site where there might be a track map of this elaborate special work?
A few friends have been talking about a ONE MORE trip on the PCCs of the Newark City Subway some week-day after work.
The rough plan: Start 6 PM at World Trade Center. Take PATH to Penn Station, Newark. Ride the PCCs. Take Path, stop at Harrison for photo op of NJ Transit/Amtrak, then on to Hoboken (to see NJ Transit/Amtrak yard & view of Manhattan from the other side of the river). Take Path to 34th (33rd) near Penn Station, Manhattan. Trip ends.
I'm forming a "core" group ... once I have it, the trip is on, so e-mail me privately if you want to be included in the planning.
Others who might like to join once we announce the date, please feel free to comment here.
Mr t__:^)
Lemme know what date it is. I have more chance of being able to go if I can notify my boss in advance.
I have made a rough track map of the NCS extension. It is a PDF file. See it at my NCS page at http://www.trainweb.org/nyrail/njt/citysubway/citysubway.html.
-Dan
www.trainweb.org/nyrail
Dan, I liked the PCC & LRV photo. It's going to be a classic.
Mr t__:^)
While riding a Q home to Brooklyn at 11:15pm 8/2/01, I saw a train of Red Birds traving North Bound. Does anyone know of any train move Yesterday.
Robert
Coney Island to Corona transfer.
I wonder if the Redbirds that they moved are headed for Davy Jones' locker.
#3 West End Jeff, formerly BMTJeff
it could have been a series of Redbirds from the 7. Motormen on the 7 tell me that sometimes the redbirds cross the bridge to Coney island
I don't know way I did not think of this. I would have made sence, this way I would not have had to ask this Question.
Robert
20 lashes with a wet noodle.
TA was hoping the bridge would fail so they wouldn't have to ship them to Delaware ;-)
Geromino-ooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo!!!!!!!!
#3595-94 on the southbound end of a garbage train at 34th St on the 6th avenue line, about 11pm. also saw an out-of-service train of r44's westbound at 21st-Queensbridge, lead car #5246.
Since 3594/95 and their cousins have no air conditioning, the garbage train assignment was a productive one. My only problem is since the cars are horses to pull the flat cars, I would hope that the drawbars between the married pairs do not get damaged since they are pulling lots of dead weight.
>>>the drawbars between the married pairs do not get damaged <<<
WHY would that happen? In reglar passenger service they pull a lot MORE weight.
Peace,
ANDEE
In regular service, unless there is a dead motor (or motors) in the consist, all cars on the train have their own propulsion motors. On the garbage train, the flat cars do not have propulsion motors, therefore the motor cars have to pull the flats.
Let the accusations begin
Peace,
ANDEE
The Redbirds are not going to their death easily.
how many times did this happen to any other rail equipment?? I remember when folks HAD SOME SENSE
& got inside the subway / trolley car / transit car QUICKLY.!! & got away from opening & closing doors remember ??
Also they PAID ATTENTION ti what in the hell was goin' on. Its like todays automobile drivers who are worst than ever!
This can happen on any piece of equipment, anywhere. However, the "Redbirds" are the only cars in the NYC subway not equipped with the latest in obstruction detection circuitry and interlocking door edges. They weren't given these things because they are on their way out. This has been discussed here before.
David
i see your point! however,.... remember when the whole fleet did not have door sensors ?
WOW. I must post a sincere agreement with Salaam.
-Hank
blow me
This sure is becoming a very friendly and intimate board.
Wow, it takes a lot to piss off Andy...
????..........................................!
>>> As the group scurried off the train, the doors were closing and caught the child by the ankle, her mother said.
Vena said the train did not move for about three minutes, as it prepared to head back toward Manhattan. <<<
I've read through the posts of many Subtalkers on this and the companion thread, and all speak with knee-jerk regularity of the negligence of the parent, and none suggest there could possibly be any liability on the TA's part.
If in fact the Daily News article is correct and the train sat in the station for three minutes while the mother tried to extract her daughter from the door, and then started up, I would say the TA is on the hook big time, and the C/R should lose his/her job.
Tom
Redbird Dragging In Brooklyn
Peace,
ANDEE
Why do bad things happen to the 4 line? Can someone answer that please. It is sad, but luckilly the girl is okay and did not get any major injuries. When the news said that she hit that pillion I thought she was dead but they said she was alive. If that was a redbird then there goes another reason to get rid of them faster.
"The train, an old redbird, did not have door sensors." -- 1010 WINS
Make of this what you will,
MATT-2AV
Reading the story, apparently there have been 11 door draggings this year on trains that do have sensors, so I think you've got to look at the intellegence of some of the passengers as much as the technology of the trains (which begs the question -- how did the New York City subway system survive its first 85 or so years without the door sensors -- reading the stories in the Daily News, you'd have to figure in the 50s, 60s and earlier there must have been tens of thousands of door draggings per year with no sensors at all on the system)
No matter who agrees or disagrees that is an excellent thought.IIRC the only cars that had a reopening feature were the original IRT fleet and that feature had to be removed [in the early 50's I think] because of tampering and excessive delays.,especially when school kids were about. Perhaps the existence of the feature on most present equipment gives people a false sense of security?
Feel sorry for a 12 year old girl but then many adults should be more careful and aren't??
how did the New York City subway system survive its first 85 or so years without the door sensors...
There were dragging incidents and numerous resulting law suits dating back to gate car days on the Els.
There are some important equipment differences. Practically all IRT and BMT cars used single leaf doors. This meant that the closing doors pushed up against a stationary barrier. Today's double leaf doors trap objects and limbs in a pincer action from two sides. Double leaf doors were introduced with the R1's. The stated purpose for this design switch at that time was to minimize opening and closing times.
Why do bad things happen on the #4 line? I really don't know, but someone should find out. It seems like a jinx is out there somewhere. I could make a comment that this stuff never happened when the #4 train was my Sea Beach long ago, but that certainly is no one's idea of Montezuma's revenge. More likely, it is carelessness and the fact that the #4 train is one of the fastest trains in the system. Have you ever noticed it almost a straight line from Woodlawn into midtown Manhattan, and express much of the way. Perhaps because of the speed it picks up as it travels it has a get out of the station type mentality on the part of the motormen. I know only this. Too many kids have been victims of accidents and something must be done to prevent this. Would hiring another conductor per train help out to make certain that no one is between the doors when the train takes off. That, of course, doesn't end all the problems, especially some of those jerks who like to cross the tracks now and then. How to you prevent that?
my question is what makes the sensor on these trains? if the sensor is when the doors are closing and something is caught in between them, the light that says if they are open or not stays on, then the redbirds have sensors. the only newest sensors that i have seen is the kind from the new fleet where the doors repeatedly open and close to free objects. but if it is the usual sensor that we see on the trains, the redbirds have them too and the media is blowing things out of proportion (not like they never do)
I think that part of the problem is that this line is overcrowed and therefore rests on the shoulders of the public. I have seen people push their way into a crowded car and not get off even if the doors cannot close.
If they got off they would find out that there is usually an empty train behind them or nearly empty cars on the ends. God forbid they should have to walk 50 feet to the exit from the train.
There might not be as many draggings if people behaved like they should and don't try to hold doors or squeeze in. Allow yourself time to get where you're going and you won't have to "make that train".
Many of the recent reported incidents that resulted in injury were as a result of people trying to get off a train.
"After a 45-year-old woman was dragged 50 feet at a subway station on 155th Street in Harlem on April 3, the City Council's Office of Oversight and Investigation demanded answers from the usually tight-lipped NYC Transit."
"In fact, an inspection of the D train that dragged Carol Mason 50 feet along the Harlem platform showed the doors and sensors were working properly."
I've taken two passages from the Newsday article to ask a simple question. If the door systems on that D train were adjusted and working properly (and they were), then how can a grown woman be dragged 50 feet by the doors of that train? The answer is why you should not put too much faith in newspaper accounts of such incidents.
A lot of accidents wouldn't happened if people weren't so careless.
Maybe people aren't paying attention to their surroundings or maybe society (the schools/media particularly) is just producing ignorant people. Who knows.....
N/W
Not just careless! Tuesday evening I was at 59th St. As I de-trained an uncrowded D train, a woman with sever children brushed past me. As the doors began to close she pushed one of the children onto the train. She then beag to scream that the child was trapped (not caught in the doors). I had the operator tell the conductor to reopen the doors and the rest of the pack boarded the train. Now do you want to know how stupid some people are or why some incidents take place?
Too bad we cannot apply Darwin to the parents; they put their children in danger.
I bet all these people that shove their kids/strollers on the train are the same people who on the street stand on the corner with the stroller in the street and themselves on the sidewalk.
Drives me crazy seeing this!!
I just made a few choice remarks on this to Train Dude, but I still can't get it through my head that some parents can be so irresponsibly stupid. What gives?
It's simple. You do not have to pass an IQ test to give sperm or receive it.
Hey Dude, makes you wonder just how much gas is in their pumps. A bunch of mental low lifers.
She's the one driving the minivan with the pro-life bumper sticker, and her 6 year old hanging out the front passenger window at 50mph on the BQE.
-Hank
Or worse yet - walk into the street from the middle of two parked cars leading with the stroller as if it is a magical stop sign.
Try telling that to Gene Hackman in The French Connection.
Combination of parent, child and society.
N/W
That certainly can be one valid reason for these draggings all right. Some parents are out to lunch when it comes to child safety. However, there are no tests to determine intelligence eligibility for parenting. If there were about 50% of prospective parents would flunk out I'm afraid. That lady should have been willing to miss that train and line her kids up so that they would have to rush into the next one. A stitch in time saves nine, I used to be told. A little common sense could go a long way too. What is it with some of these young parents today?
Your typo is apropo.
-Hank
Not just careless! Tuesday evening I was at 59th St. As I de-trained an uncrowded D train, a woman with several children brushed past me. As the doors began to close she pushed one of the children onto the train. She then beag to scream that the child was trapped (not caught in the doors). I had the operator tell the conductor to reopen the doors and the rest of the pack boarded the train. Now do you want to know how stupid some people are or why some incidents take place?
Let me see if I understand this incident.
As I de-trained an uncrowded D train...
1. There was sufficient room in the train to accomodate the passengers trying to get on
...a woman with several children brushed past me...
2. The woman and her several children were already on the platform waiting to board the train. The woman and her children stepped up to the door while it was open and in the process of discharging passengers.
As the doors began to close she pushed one of the children onto the train...
3. The doors began to close while the party was in the process of boarding the train.
Is this what happened?
Where possible, you should HOLD DOORS in case of an emergency. (Note: Do NOT try to hold doors on the R142(A)'s!) If a force is acting upon the door in the opposite direction, the doors would automatically reopen because they are 'latch' operated. The conductor will sense the doors on his conductor's cab, and then he SHOULD CHECK the length of the station platform (both sides of the train) BEFORE closing doors.
I think some conductors are just so careless and short-tempered when it comes to closing doors. That's the primary reason why there are SO MANY DRAGS on the subway! It's not smart AT ALL for a conductor to close the doors WHILE a crowd or an individual is trying to discharge or enter the train.
MTA should have trained those conductors better.
: )
Railfan Pete.
Subway doors don't reopen automatically. They haven't done so for decades. (Maybe you're thinking of your elevator.)
What sort of an emergency would warrant holding doors? I guess if a baby's head is about to get crushed, it's a good idea to hold the doors back. But more often holding doors creates the emergency.
Doors on R-142/142As do reopen. They have a "bounce back" feature that works quite well. I have seen it myself.
Peace,
ANDEE
Doors on R-142/142As do reopen. They have a "bounce back" feature that works quite well. I have seen it myself.
I should go see for it myself. I read a topical article on About.Com (I don't like About.com for this) of the R142's and their expression of the subway cars were a little bit of 'satire'. They mentioned that it's impossible to force open doors here because they were electrically powered.
Do you have the car # and on what line you were on that you recalled the "bounce-back" feature?
Railfan Pete.
>>>Do you have the car # and on what line you were on that you recalled the "bounce-back" feature?<<<
ALL R-142/142As have this feature.
Peace,
ANDEE
R142/A's door panel will reopen three times I believe all by itself and try to close. After the 3rd attempt it requires the C/R to recycle the door closing procedure (open/close?).
No matter how you slice it guys, it all starts with the parents. They have an obligation to see to their children's safety first and foremost. If that is taken care of much of these tragedies would not take place. Perhaps if the motormen are ill tempered and tired, an extra hour or two of work, coupled with breaks of some duration might be an answer. This way the MM can get in a full day's work, but be refreshed so he is not tired and irritable. They are, after all, only human.
True, but they only bounce back an inch or so. I've only seen this in action on a car with a fidgety door; nothing was blocking it but it bounced open at two or three stops.
All NYCT cars have a "PUSH-BACK" feature where, once the doors are locked, the door panels can be pushed back 1 1/2" per panel or 3" per opening (against a spring linkage). This helps in freeing trapped customers and also protects the door linkage.
It was repeatedly noted in specs provided by the TA and other organizations that the doors on the R142/142A cars were equipped with door sensors that would move ONLY the held door, and no others; this prevents further door holding from the conductor cycling the doors.
-Hank
Yes, I should have made clear that only the held panel reopens.
Peace,
ANDEE
Subway doors don't reopen automatically. They haven't done so for decades.
That's not true. I held open the doors on an IRT R62 #1 train at 42nd St. Times Square. It opened back up. Also, numerous people hold the doors while they're closing firmly on the R32's on the E line . I have some instances.
And also on a southbound E, a person placed a thick (but small) book between the doors while they were closing. The doors couldn't close, so the generous conductor opened it back up (because he sensed the doors couldn't close) and served that passenger.
I haven't been on an R142 train frequently, but I know I'm not going to even TRY to hold the doors there.
Railfan Pete.
The only trains, presently in revenue service for the NYCTA, that have doors that reopen automatically when an obstuction is detected are the
R-142/142As. Any other reopenings you may have seen are done manually by the conductor.
Peace,
ANDEE
Sure, the doors reopen -- when the C/R reopens them. They don't reopen automatically.
Please don't hold doors. Holding doors delays service for everyone else and can earn you a $100 ticket.
they need to write more of them tickets. maybe use the millions they'd make off of it to build the 2nd av line.
Alot of people would have to hold the doors to build the second avenue line.About 200,000,000 if they all got a $100 fine.
consider how many people hold the doors though... up the fine a bit, and hey, baddabing-baddaboom! =)
" The doors couldn't close, so the generous conductor opened it back up (because he sensed the doors couldn't close) and served that passenger.
"served that passenger"
Please elaborate more... Thanks!
N/W
WRONG AGAIN PETE.
There are no R-62s on the #1 line
The doors on any car through R-68A do not open automatically on obstruction.
If you disagree, please re-read the first line.
Dude, I'd forgive mixing up the 'A' car types. I'm surprised you didn't call him on the alleged generosity of the conductor who open the doors for the brain-dead rider's book.
I'm pretty sure it's called, depending on how one feels:
Saving My Own Ass
Saving My Own Job
Making Sure The Train Can Move
Protecting The Idiots From Themselves.
-Hank
(Note-new warning sticker: DO NOT FOLD STROLLER BEFORE REMOVING CHILD, ASSHOLE!)
I'd like to know how the conductor senses the door being held. Does he have an interface port for the non-microprocessor equipped doors of the R32, ala Robocop?
-Hank
No. Psychic powers granted by Cleo.
There will plenty of time to speculate as to where any fault might lay after we get and dissect the eye witness account.
"I think some conductors are just so careless and short-tempered when it comes to closing doors. That's the primary reason why there are SO MANY DRAGS on the subway! It's not smart AT ALL for a conductor to close the doors WHILE a crowd or an individual is trying to discharge or enter the train."
I don't doubt this either. But lets also look at the management. Conductors are constantly warned that they must not exceed the 15 second dwelling period. This means that once the train stops, by the time the doors are opened, he is given at least given 15 seconds to leave the station. Unfortunately, this puts our safety at risk.
I've seen promotional material all around the subway (billboards and brochures) that caution passengers about holding doors or running for trains. It makes no sense to see passengers running for trains, because, it not only puts themselves at risk, but it also delays millions of riders who uses the system everyday.
I use to run for trains until I realize that commonsense will tell you that the next train will be in about 5 minutes. Also, if riders riders are late for their appointments, they can easily flag a cab. Anyway, I don't want you all to thing that I'm attacking this child, but let the truth be known, she and her mother was at fault!
N/W
So now it's management's fault for drags? So now the conductors are all ill-tempered? Hmmmmmmmm! And you have documentation that conductors are under pressure to limit dwell time to 15 seconds? Let's see - 1.5 seconds for the door to open & 2.5 seconds for them to close. That leaves 11 seconds for the customers. If you can prove what you claim then you could make a strong case against management. Can you post the proof?
Oh yeah. That's a good one. Kindly remove your head from Pete's ass before you post horseshit. The reason dwell times are INCREASING is because IDIOTS hold the doors. IF TA management has responded to this by telling conductors not to hold the doors open in a quest to DECREASE dwell time (and thus increasing service), that's the EFFECT, not the CAUSE.
-Hank
I take issue with you blaming the conductors for the draggings. Sometimes they can't avoid hitting a passenger with a door because at some stations there is always someone coming down the stairs and you just have to get out of there sometime! Also, once the door ways are clear, there is a lull of a few seconds between the time the conductor hits the closing buttons and the time the 2 door panels come together to close. In those 2 seconds people throw themselves or objects into the doorway. In one case on the N some years ago, in which I was the train operator, some dumb broad held out her baby in front of her to block the doors from closing! Or so she thought! Thank God my conductor reopened before the baby got crushed. Perhaps one day you will be a NYCT conductor and then you will see uncivilised human behavior and you will see how "easy" it is to close subway doors while trying to save some idiot from hurting themselves!
Thank you...for enableing people to see this from the other side of the coin. (so to speak)
Peace,
ANDEE
Amen! Not to mention the people that will continue to hold the doors on you long after you've made it clear you're NOT going to open them again, and then challenge you by keeping their arm in it, refusing to let go ... I've seen this tired old game of chicken way too many times.
Been there, done that, eh?
It'll make you wish that there were chainsaws mounted inside the rubber bumpers. :)
Thank you Bill from Maspeth. I could not have say it better myself.
Here's a question: I often wonder why on earth conductors or T/O's don't say a few choice things to the idiots can hold the doors and refuse to let go (waiting for the conductor to open them) over the PA. A little public embarassment for these idiots can go a long way. Even if it's just as simple as "You, in the white shirt holding the doors towards the front - the doors are not going to reopen, and you are delaying everyone around you from getting home or getting to work. You might want to get out of the door immediately before someone gets upset".
...i assume there is some rule against that sort of action, or perhaps tossing in a few good curse words?
ALSO:
are their fines for people holding doors? there should be, and it should be enforced. the city could make a small fortune.
If someone is holding the door on a particular train, some conductors will NOT open the doors again until the guy lets it go. Or sometimes, they totally dis the guy and open them just a little then slam them shut. That's why I don't do it. It's easier to wait for the next one than get embarrased or possibly dragged.
On the Montreal Metro a couple of years back, in reference to someone who held the doors open and slithered into the train...
"Attention all passengers: the short delay we just experienced at Atwater Station is due to a person in the seventh car who was holding the doors open so that he may board the train. The STCUM apologizes on behalf of this individual for any inconvenience this may have caused. Thank you."
That kind of language is not permitted in New York City. The Rapid Transit Operations "blue book" specifically states what may be said and what may not be said over the PA system, and singling out a particular customer is definitely forbidden. A revised Bulletin about this issue came out just last week.
David
I don't think there's any such rule in Montreal. I've heard the T/O come over the PA and quite rudely tell people to let go of the doors, or to stop playing with the doors in between stations (because the doors are tied in with the brakes, playing with the doors brings the train to a screeching halt and sends everyone flying). I've on occasion even heard a couple of french swear words over the PA!!
One other thing I've noticed on all American rapid transit systems that I've ridden on... there's always a delay of about three seconds between the time the train comes to a complete stop and the time the doors open. Is this a federal law in the US? There's also a similar delay between when the doors close and the train starts.
In Montreal and Toronto, the doors open right away after the train stops. In Toronto, there's a short delay after the doors close and the train starts, but not in opening the doors after the train stops. In Montreal, there are no delays, the doors open when the train stops, and the train starts immediately after the doors close.
It's called a non-automated system. The humans running the train need reaction time.
-Hank
>>The humans running the train need reaction time.
Yeah I agree, but Toronto trains are run by humans exactly like the NYC subway is, and there is no lag time between when the train stops and the doors open, only between when the doors close and the train starts. And even then it isn't as long a lag as on most US subways that I've ridden. The Montreal Metro is frequently run manually (and you can always tell when they are because the operators aren't very good at it!! :) and yet there is no lag time even when this is the case.
Conversely, the Miami MetroMover is entirely ATO, and there is still an approx. 3 sec. lag between when the train stops and when the doors open. The Washington Metro is operated in the exact same fashion as the Montreal Metro, ATO with an operator in front controlling the doors, and they do the same thing.
This leads me to believe that it is a law in the US wait about 3 seconds between when the train stops and the doors open. Is there such a law?
Greg, I have a very serious question to ask you. I started to ask this question of you twice before and thought better of it but now I must ask. I have a cousin in vancouver, a cousin in Toronto and a cousin in Montreal. You seem to have the very same habit that they have. No matter what the subject - it seems that it's always done better in canada. I can't seem to understand how you can compare the montreal system or the toronto system with the NYC system. I have more scale tracks on my lionel trains than either system. I guess this is not a question after all - just an observation...
You know I was thinking the same thing after posting my last post ("Dang, I'm comparing too much, they're going to think I think the NYC subway sucks!!).
Sorry... I didn't mean to come off that way. Actually, to tell you the truth, I actually prefer the US "3-second rule" (as I've now dubbed it for lack of a better term), I think that a short lag between the time a train stops and the doors open is a good idea, it allows people to wait until the train is stopped before getting out of their seats and walking to the doors (barring a crowded train), which is good for elderly or mobility impaired folks who have trouble standing on a moving train. I also like a short lag between the time the doors close and the time the train leaves, it leaves the conductor enough time to see if anyone's caught in the doors, as well as enough time for passengers to sit down or grab onto something before the train moves.
I'm not saying any system is better, I'm just comparing. There are some things on Canadian subway systems that I think should be done on American systems, and I think there are some things on American systems that should be done on Canadian systems.
Anyways, don't get me wrong, the NYC subway is one of my favorite subway systems!!!
Oh, and I know what you mean about your relatives and probably every other Canadian you'll ever meet... let's just say we Canadians have a lot of national pride!! :)
Thanks for the extremely honest answer, Greg.
WRONG AGAIN PETE!
The primary reason for drags is that people are careless, reckless and thoughtless. They take for granted, things that are not so.
If you disagree with me - please re-read the first line of this posting.
What is wrong with these parents who push their kids onto trains? Never mind the possibility of being dragged - what about the possibility of your child being stranded in a subway car full of strangers, and the parent being stuck on the platform? When I ride the subway with my kids, I'm cautious almost to the point of paranoia that the doors might close between my kids and myself. I hold their hand, and we all board together.
I've been known to avoid boarding a train sitting at the platform if my years of subway-riding experience tell me that I may not be able to board safely because the conductor will soon be closing the doors. Talk about getting some funny looks - the average rider seems to think that they have the right to board any train that is sitting in the station when they arrive, even if they are 100 feet away from the nearest open door. Maybe it comes from being a railfan and paying more attention to the mechanics of the train than the average rider does, but more often than not, my instincts are correct and the doors close.
Maybe what we need to have happen is a parent get cited for child endangerment in one of these instances.
Jim D. (RailBus)
"Maybe what we need to have happen is a parent get cited for child endangerment in one of these instances."
Nawww. That's not what we need! We have too much government prying into the private lives of the citizens. What we do need is mandatory parental classes established by community organizations. These parental classes will teach parents how to take more responsibility in their children's safety. Whether that includes a subway train, school, crossing the street, or the foods they eat, I think it is necessary.
N/W
We have too much government prying into the private lives of the citizens.
What we do need is mandatory parental classes established by community organizations.
And that's NOT prying? A citation for something done in public is not prying into private lives. Something done in public is NOT private.
I feel more comfortable with community base organizations (run by private citizens of course) than government agencies. So I suggest the latter. Anyway, something has to give...
N/W
What you need is both: edgimicating the (idiot) parents, and stiff fines for doing stupid things like pushing a child onto a train while the doors are closing.
And how do we educate parents? We meaning the general public and not just the MTA. Case in point: 12:15 D Bedford park this afternoon. A young hispanic mother with an older hispanic woman were traveling with two toddlers (I raise the issue of ethnicity only because of the language problems). Now you would think that after all of the horror over the little boy who fell between the doors of a B train, that no responsible parent would even allow their child near an end door, locked or not. Well this woman sat at the end of the car on one side and the older woman on the other side. the male child was playing with the end door handle and neither said a word. Now, the end doors on the R-68 are locked and the door weighs over 300 LBS so a child won't open it too easily. However, what happens next time when this same child is on a slant 40? Anyway, I tried to explain to the mother that her child should not be allowed to play there. She cocked her head like my poodle (Harley), trying to understand but just couldn't. I even motioned for her to move to another seat but "no sale."
Now, is there possibly anyone in NYC who had not heard about the previous tragedy? Am I expecting too much from common sense?
You live, you breathe, you visit subtalk. Any questions? :)
I have no idea, honestly. outside of the ads in multi languages that are all over the subways, all the time, is there more than can be done? should it even be attempted? perhaps one could be offered at the transit museum, sorta like how there are places that teach fire safety?
I hate to say it, but common sense is just not that common these days.
Hi
I FULLY agree with you, similar thimgs happen here in the UK, and when you advise them (the parents) what may happen, they just shrug their shoulders!! as much to say, this won't happen to me, and then they start screaming for $1000 of compensation £'s in the UK, what more can you do!!!Regards Bob
As we say in the US, drop back 10 yeard and punt. Alas civilization as we know it may be lost.
Just about everyone I know rode around without a seat belt as a child in the 1960s. Just about everyone I know had parents who smoked and drank when they were pregnant.
By the standards of 30 years ago, today's parents are paranoid. We have some parents on our block who allow their children to do things we all did as kids, and we think they are nuts. Perhaps the value of life hasn't risen quite as high in NYC, or perhaps all the education has been directed at the typical suburban life (ie. cars).
But yes, they can be taught. Or at least some of them.
Just about everyone I know rode around without a seat belt as a child in the 1960s. Just about everyone I know had parents who smoked and drank when they were pregnant.
And don't forget about the toys we played with, with the sharp metal edges and small easily-swallowed pieces. How did we ever survive :-)
You own a POODLE named HARLEY?!?!?
HAHAHAHA!
-Hank :)
(All in fun, of course)
Hell ... he owns a Harley named "poodle" ... I've DONE the Concourse yards from the 205th center track ... spend time there and you'll go silently mad. :)
Yes I do. 2 years old and 14 pounds of trouble. My wife says he's as close as I'll ever get to owning one.
It is totally wrong to call people "idiots" for holding subway doors. People who hold doors are behaving intuitively and reasonably.
There is one simple reason that so many people push their kids (or their own bodies) into the doors. It is not that people are willingly putting their children (or themselves) into danger; is that they do not see the danger because they believe that the doors are like elevator doors which reopen automatically.
The act of holding the door is based on reasonable expectations which arise from living in a technological society. Automatically-reopening doors on elevators have been around for many decades, and are everywhere, even in the most run-down buildings. It ain't exactly cutting-edge technology. So, encountering doors like this on the subway resembles the "elevator" experience to such a degree that it triggers a state of mind which cannot be counteracted in most people simply by "Do Not Hold the Doors" signs, or even by news of the latest dragging.
More importantly, even someone who is not making an unconscious connection between elevator doors and subway doors may reasonably presume that this obvious and sensible safety feature was built into the subway, and would probably be surprised to find out that it was not.
All of which brings us to the real point, which is: the doors ought to reopen automatically. This would eliminate all risk of dragging once and for all.
Some people would probably contend that this would also cause massive service backups. And it would, for a short time. But, on account the short learning curve (given that auto-reopening doors would work with -- rather than against -- riders' expectations), I'd bet that this effect would pass relatively quickly.
So, while it is sensible to call people "idiots" when they push strollers out in front of moving traffic, it is ridiculous to heap scorn upon them for a flaw in the subway.
Ferdinand Cesarano
>Some people would probably contend that this would also cause massive service backups. And it would, for a short time. But, on account the short learning curve (given that auto-reopening doors would work with -- rather than against -- riders' expectations), I'd bet that this effect would pass relatively quickly.
I'm one of those people who contend this. If the doors automatically reopened everytime someone pushed it at a busy station, the train would NEVER leave the station!!! There is a constant flow of people coming into certain subway stations wanting the same train. I don't think any person would get into the mindset of willfully refraining from taking advantage of this feature, and the result would be the train staying in the station until the train is packed like sardines and no-one else would fit! And then at the next station, a full train pulls in and people would end up holding the doors open to take advantage of the 3 inches of room left in the train.
I think the R142-R142A system would work the best... automatically open the door enough to let someone get their foot unstuck, but that's it!
>This would eliminate all risk of dragging once and for all.
The best way to prevent draggings is to interlock the doors with the brakes like on the Montreal Metro, but I don't think NYC could modify their trains to do this without great expense. There's nothing preventing them from including this on all their new trains, though.
>>The best way to prevent draggings is to interlock the doors with the brakes like on the Montreal Metro,
In NYC Subway you can not take power if a door is open. No need to interlock them with the brakes. No Power, you can't move the car (albeit you can release the brakes and roll).
>In NYC Subway you can not take power if a door is open. No need to interlock them with the brakes. No Power, you can't move the car (albeit you can release the brakes and roll).
But then how do the dragging incidents in NYC occur if the train can't move while the doors are open? Are these dragging incidents caused solely by releasing the brakes and rolling?
The doors can jam something and be almost completely closed.
Pressure sensors detect anything pushing against the rubber tongue and groove that connects the two leaves of the door.
It can happen the same way it can happen in Montreal or anywhere else. If the train's door system senses that the doors are closed when, in fact, someone is caught in the doors, the train will move whether the system is tied to the propulsion or braking.
Ahhh, I see!! So now let's say someone pries open the doors midway between stations in NYC while the train is moving... does the train stop dead like they do in Montreal?
It seems to me that the Montreal Metro doors are physically tied in with the brakes, like the rear doors on a city bus. I don't think they use sensors to detect door openings. I could be wrong though so I'll do a little more research.
No. The train does not stop.
on older cars, you can pry the doors a 3 or 4 inches at the most while it is in motion., which unfortunately is not enough to toss any door-holders off the train from. =)
>which unfortunately is not enough to toss any door-holders off the train from
LOL!! Aren't we all tempted to do that!!
I just confirmed from what I said I would from my last post... the Montreal Metros do have their doors interlocked with the braking system, just like the rear doors on a city bus. It is impossible for a Montreal train to move unless all the doors are closed and locked.
Another interesting tidbit about Montreal door mechanisms is that if the rubber edges on the doors close on anything, like a limb, they won't automatically reopen but they'll stop in their tracks, allowing the person to easily get their limbs free. The door then continues closing once the obstruction is gone.
I'd like to know if any other transit systems have these safety features. I know that among Canadian transit systems Montreal is the only one that does.
Te rear doors of a city bus aren't tied into the brakes, but an accelerator cut out I beleive. I've seen the doors open on a bus and we still rolled.
>>> It is totally wrong to call people "idiots" for holding subway doors <<<
Good post, but unfortunately you are out of step with most of the subway fans on this board who believe that the riding public is at fault for all accidents, and believe the public must modify its behavior rather than have the system engineered to carry the public (with all their limitations) safely.
Tom
HAHAHA!
i for one am glad the doors DO NOT automatically reopen. If they did, many trains would never leave the station.
Also: i heard a few years back that in DC, the doors simply lock up - and the conductor must come and key open any door that any fool gets stuck in. this was perhaps 8 or 9 years ago that i heard this: is it true?
the guy who stuck his arm in that door says everyone on the train pretty much looked like they wanted to kill him for NOT knowing they could not reopen.
i for one am glad the doors DO NOT automatically reopen. If they did, many trains would never leave the station.
The IRT LV's did automatically reopen. The LV's ran their routes in substantially less time than at present. The IRT also had an on time performance, based on a 3 minute threshold, that the TA can't match.
The door recyclers, aka sensitive edges, were added to the
Lo-V fleet in the 1930s. They were a fad in the transit
industry. A bunch of Third Avenue streetcars had them as
well as PCCs (not Brooklyn though). What you failed to mention
is that they were taken off the Lo-Vs in the 50s because they
were so troublesome.
Thanks for this additional information regarding the installation date. The reported on time performance, based on being more than 3 minutes late at the terminal, for 1949 was 88%. The scheduled running times were approximately 10% less than today's. To be sure, the IRT's performance paled in comparison to the BMT and IND, both of whose performace was better than 98%. However, the IRT at that time was platforming 8 and 9 cars at express stops with trains composed of 10 cars, as well as carrying higher service load levels than the other two divisions.
The reason for removing this feature may have been mechanical problems, once the TA took over. The assumption that passengers would abuse the system and thereby prevent the trains from maintaining a schedule is disproved by these statistics. The trains ran tighter schedules with much better on time performance. The fact that these devices may have been removed for mechanical problems is not germane. One would assume that reliable door recyclers could be built and maintained, based on the elevator industry experience.
There is also a reasonable theoretical basis to believe that a door recycler would result in reduced dwell time over the current system.
The sensitive edges may have been removed for maintenance
reasons, or the increasingly poor behavior of the passengers
holding doors may have motivated it.
Yes, the IRT gave better service 70 years ago, at least in
terms of running time and OTP. They did so with a substantially
higher labor requirement (in terms of hours, not dollars) and
much poorer conditions for the workers.
The systemwide average OTP for 2000 was over 90%. Of course,
the measurement criteria are not the same as in 1949 so it
is apples and oranges.
In terms of getting the doors closed the fastest, the R142s come
close. They have a selective recycler button which the conductor
can push to recycle all open doors. At least this prevents more
doors which were already closed from being grabbed during the
recycle. The most aggressive measure would have been to have this
button start to open the doors and then close them again when
the button is released, or when the CLOSE button is pushed for the
zone. This way the held doors could be "popped" rather than taking
a complete recycle, but the current party line is that popping doors
is bad.
I'm sure all of this violates a turn of the century law requiring
that a man and his horse be allowed to board a coach before the
gates are closed.
Jeff ... does 1689 allow "rocking?" Used to be on SOME of the R1/9's, if you pulled the trigger and snapped the cap real fast (required leaning over) you could "pop" the doors on those if you were fast enough ... I know the lower numbered cars in the 1 and 4 series could do it, some of the 6's could also but someone I know tells me that they'd go full cycle on the 9's ... in other words, once you let the air out, they had to retract fully before you could send them back.
Used to love to slap (ahem) "customers" upside the head when I could. :)
I'm not sure. I'll have to try it out
THAT'S why I asked ... I mean ... c'mon, Unca Jeff? How many of those are laid up to play with in Train Dude's sandbox? Heh. But I believe you have a "9" there and if so, it didn't work on those. I know it did on the 1's and 4's and SOME of the 6's ... the later cars had an interlock that forced the doors to "complete the trip" before they'd roll back the other way.
Then again, if that car isn't quite "fully 9" maybe it will work. I remember blurring through school where they explained it in intricate detail - the newer cars at the break point had a lever interlock that required that the door hit it before it would let the pistons be charged. Just can't remember where it all changed.
Since you've played with that puppy, you too must get a kick out of how the R1/9's that we worked were pretty much the same, but from GE this and Westinghouse that and some classes that were one or the other solely, it's amusing how so many cars that looked almost identical were all so radically different in their own way, and yet got along. A valuable lesson for a handful of subtalkers lies here. :)
I don't think that station is on a curve. The basic fault probably does fall on the passenger, but how did the C/R not notice this for three minutes?
Somehow I seriously doubt that the train remained there for three minutes with the child stuck, then moved on. I'd bet a dozen Krispy Kremes that the train began to move almost immediately after the doors closed, but the parent misstated the time out of either (1) total misperception of how long it really was - not impossible when you consider the amount of fear the mother must have felt and the impact which that fear has on perceptive judgment - or (2) thinking this will get her a nice pile of easy cash from the TA.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Maybe in THEIR native language
'three SECONDS' is pronounced 'three MINUTES'.
Not to mention having one's shoe/ankle stuck
should leave the door ajar with just about
enough space to stick one's hands in and pry
the doors apart further... releasing shoe/ankle.
Shouldn't take three minutes to count your kids...
south ferry as U & I know on R-142 Subtalk the redbirds will be blamed 100% for
" 4 Train Drag " resposibility ?? common sense ? hell no ( just blame the redbirds & kick back ) lol !!!
I don't know how easy it would be to modify NYC Subway cars with this feature, but on the Montreal Metro the train simply won't move if the doors are open even a little.
I'm not sure about the exact mechanics of it, but I know the doors are somehow tied to the braking system. Because of this I don't think there has ever been a dragging in Montreal.
Of course, there is one downside... a popular challenge among Montreal teenagers is to see who can pry the doors open while the train is travelling full speed between stations and stop the train dead. And I mean the train literally stops dead in it's tracks! Everyone on board is sent flying!!! Then the T/O calmly (because this happens often) gets on the PA and says "Please do not play with the doors, you're wasting everyone's time", and then moves on.
Forgive me if this wasn't already mentioned, as i haven't read all the posts on this thread - BUT:
does anyone else find it ironic how politicians, many of whom likely rejected funding better doors on the redbirds and other subwya cars years ago, are hoping on the issue - saying that the MTA needs to get rid of the redbirds because of the doors while they know full well that they are already in the process of being retired? So... once all the redbirds are gone, and the media attention behind draggings dies down a bit, you can bet you'll see the same politicians claiming they helped get ride of them scary, dangerous redbirds and prevent draggings...
Please...
It's not the redbirds - it's stupid passengers that for some reason think that squeezing in a closing door is a smart thing to do.
what happened at 42 yesterday around 130pm? All the PA said was Police investigation.
i think.. :-\
Sherman Cheung
Welcome back, Sherman... new handle I see :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I just got tickets to this trip, but I don't have the flyer. "HARTBus" informed me of it and it sounded interesting but could someone who is going give me details? I know we will be riding BMT D-Type Triplex cars from Chambers St. to Metropolitan Ave. then somehow we will go down to the 38th St. Yard near Bush while being hauled by 2 diesels. Whate else?
I plan to bring two digital cameras with 300Mb total of memory and a 35mm camera with plenty of film!
Who else from here is going on the trip?
-Dan
www.trainweb.org/nyrail
I'm committed (what else is new).
I don't believe however, that the SBK diesels will be added to the D-Type consist UNTIL we get to 38th Street Yard. Otherwise N1 and N2 will have to be waiting over by Fresh Pond Yard, and I doubt that that is the plan.
BMTman
I'm going too....
Me three (as we used to say in Sunnyside). Guess Shoreline will be shorthanded.
More than you think, there are a lot of members that take the march of dimes trip.
Give my regards to those gentle behemoths.
I'll be there.
BTW - I posted information (including "recreating" the flyer) on here at the end of June.
Is this the trip taking place on the 26th? If so, could someone either put the information about it here or email me? I'm planning to be in the area for that weekend and I wouldn't mind going on it if possible.
Thanks,
Robert King
Sorry, Tickets were sold out as of Monday.
Are they using two sets or all three?? Hmmm....
I really think they should be using all three, but what do I know. More seats, more butts to sit on them. Heh.
I might be watching for you guys. I may not be on the train since I have to work that day, if the train is at the dock early enough, expect to find a TA employee in full uniform getting pictures with the train on the street.
Damn, I wish I could be there. Unfortunately, I have to be at Bowling Green by 10 minutes to 5 in the afternoon. What are the chances of the trip being over by then?
-Stef
I heard of the trip on Wednesday so the tickets were unavailable due to being sold out even if I had acted immediately. It does take some financial pressure off my trip though.
Thanks,
Robert King
I just heard this on abc a news on top of the hour newscast in about an hour i guess a vidieo of some sort will come in about this
I was not aware of any el commuter train other than the CTA subway types certaniy did not se this on the amtrak southwest chief
& the transfer to the lake shore limited that ends at penn station in nyc !! ( hope i got that right ) lol !!
( the other one is grand central station right ) ??? oh well wait until more news of the derailment & or collision comes in .
come on man !! nobody heard this on the news yet ?? ...........geeeeezzz !!
Ummmm, haven't you seen the post about 'CTA Trains Collide'????
BMTman
Where is it ??
the other one is grand central station right
The Post Office? Oh, you mean GCT!
Ok whatever , !! lol !!
CTA Train Accident
http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/ap/20010803/ts/train_accident_2.html
N/W
This morning my Washington Post reported on the same subject. However the wording is "Commuter", not "EL". The reporter does not know the difference between an L vs commuter like his elbow and his.......
Anyway would he call our subway an "underground commuter train", or even worst the NYC Metro?
Dumbasses can't believe anybody would willingly ride a train, except for getting to work.
All a matter of wordage...commuter rail of course intrpreted as what you have in mind...on "big" railroad trackage so I see your point. But then the main purpose of els and subways is COMMUTERS, a few shoppers, railfans and other passengers but then again technically not a commuter train [heavy rail is the name] even if it is hauling commuters...oh well.
Why do people say they're going to the subway even when the line is elevated at the point they embark? Just happens to be part of the subway system.
CTA Trains Collide
Peace,
ANDEE
What sort of signal system does the L have? If it's functioning properly, should collisions be possible in regular operations?
Article states a problem with computer software that is supposed to determine how closely the train in front of you is ..... manual overide was in effect of the time of the collision.
Must have been the NT Blue Screen of Death :)
--Mark
Something told me to turn on the TV news at 11am and there it was, CTA "L" Collision....actually I was looking for followup to Mondays flooding rains we had here in Chicago.
From the helicopter footage, there was almost no damage to the ends of the cars involved. Both trains were moved to the next station, Chicago and Franklin, after about 90 minutes, with most of the passengers still aboard, where a second triage was set up.
Both trains were jammed packed, six cars. The Blue train in front was 2400s and the Brown train 3200s. The collision occured at the famed "Church Curve" just south of Division ST. It's an S curve dating from the 1900 construction when the then=four track mainline dodged around a huge church building. Workers on scaffolding on the church walls had ringside seats.
The outside four tracks have been unused since the 70s, the ties and steel probably kept in the event of a derailment. The territory is ATC which is cab signal. The cab displays allowed speed and enforces an emergency brake application if not responded to in two and a half seconds.
According to news accounts, the Brown Line train was operating with its cab signal system "cutout." This happens frequently. The speed limit is not 6 mph in this circumtance, as the CTA Chairman was quoted on TV.
To operate with the cab signals cut out, control and the motorman agree to a set of rules, read aloud by the controller, they exchange badge numbers and then control gives permission to operate between two sets of stations. The CTA cannot pinpoint the location of any train and only depend upon wayside triggers that manually note the passage of a train. By charting these passages and recording run numbers, controllers then now approximate locations of trains.
The rules read are telling for the rear TO..."in cases of reduced visibility, like on curves...you are to operate your train at a reduced speed to enable you stop short of any obstruction."
25 mph is the usual speed on the curve. Several persons interviewed on TV said they heard emergency brakes and the screeching before impact, which was usually described as a "loud explosion." What they probably heard were the track brakes being applied if the train was going 25 and the TO saw the standing train coming around the blind curve.
What still is to be answered is not why was the forward train standing, but was control aware and why was the following train given permission to proceed without a "clear" block.
Then again, maybe the following train WAS aware and was closing at 6 mph and somehow its brakes failed. Given the number of injuries..60 plus with three critical, this seems remote. Well, the 4 pm news is in 30 minutes, I'll talk to you later.
David Harrison
Actually, the outside two tracks have been out of use since the 1960's. The elevated structure at this point is wide enough for four tracks, however the CTA has never really needed more than two tracks. The reason for the outside two tracks was the Chicago North Shore & Milwaukee interurban line, which ran into Chicago over the elevated system. When the North Shore was abandoned in 1963, the main reason for these extra tracks vanished. I think they were used occasionally for a time after 1963, but they certainly haven't been utilized for years. The only reason that all the ties, tie plates and rails are still sitting there is that the CTA doesn't want to go to the trouble of salvaging it all.
It seems to me it's a liability to the CTA to leave all that rotting track structure up there. Pieces of cross ties, spikes, fishplates could fall to the street and kill someone. Or it could catch fire.
First ime I rode the North Side L or was even in Chi. was July l961, was on a North Shore train. I may be proven wrong, that's fine...but IIRC even then the outer tracks along that 4 track stretch look like they hadn't been used for some time..but as you say they possibly could be used in emergency.
My guess would be that the routing of trains thru the State St. Subway [that previously would have gone over the L ] made the outer tracks superfluous. [???]
On the subject of a crash it is ironic that thru RR history operating rules provided for safe operation when rules were adhered to and it was NOT necessary to go thru supervision to run trains. A situation occurred, you'd run by applicable rules...maybe got delayed but no crash. Now there's a collision, obviously the train was not being run at restricted speed.[Everyone makes mistakes...one at the wrong time can be fatal].
BTW that signal system is CTA's most modern. Replaced "dark" or unsignalled operation on that stretch and on most of the original els. The subways there had wayside Automatic Block Signals.
24 hours of news reporting and not one definitive report of what malfunctions the Brown Line train was operating with or what permissions were granted from Control. CTA President Frank Kruesi did admit his 6 mph statement was in error...now says number should be 15 mph, but didn't say if that was speed of train or speed at impact. The cars involved weren't damaged and actually coupled.
Two more telling accounts were printed in the Saturday Tribune. Two masonry workers on the scafolding at the church said the TO was looking at them, and not at the tracks ahead. A rider in the front car was also quoted as saying he saw the Purple Line train "a block ahead" and braced himself when he realized impact was seconds away.
It was practice a few years ago due to overcrowding that after Fullerton, southbound TOs would redress their cab door to the old motorman's cab configuration, allowing public access to the left side of the full width cab as the door controls on that side of the train weren't needed until the train circuited the Loop and arrived back at Fullerton NB.
The difficulties of putting together accounts from non-knowledgable news reporters. There might be a press conference at 1 pm CDT.
David Harrison
Here's that story from the Chicago Tribune:
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/chi-0108040193aug04.story
Talk about a bad week for the CTA.
I was out near O'Hare when I heard about the accident on 780 AM. Unfortuntely, I no longer have internet access during the day, so I wasn't able to post a message to SubTalk until now.
According to the news report, the Brown Line operator had notified control moments before the crash that his train was experiencing mechanical difficulties. As David Harrison mentioned, the train was operating in a mode that overrode the cab signalling system. The trains did not derail, but the impact caused them to couple together. Apparently the trains were not damaged in the accident. Both trains have been removed from service and both operators were relieved of duty pending an investigation.
The circumstances of this crash -- one train rear-ending another on a curve -- are eerily similar to those of the famous Loop wreck in the 1970's in which three cars of a train plunged to the street below.
Chicago Tribune: CTA Trains Collide, Dozens Injured
Also this morning:
COMMUTER TRAIN: 1
SPORT-UTILITY VEHICLE: 0
Around the same time as the "L" incident, an inbound Metra train on the Union Pacific Northwest Line was going about 40 MPH when it struck an SUV. The driver of the SUV had gone around the crossing gates and had tried to beat the train. The train won.
The force of the impact tossed the SUV through the crossing gates and a nearby telephone pole. Needless to say, the driver was killed instantly. There were no injuries on the train.
-- David
Chicago, IL
Yesterday(the day of the collision) I was working the Red line(Howard/Dan-Ryan). At 9:15 AM when I arrived southbound at Belmont, the motorman of the Purple line(Evanston) and the supervisor were evacuating the train, with platform announcments that there was no Brown(Ravenswood) or Purple line service to the Loop. I than attempted to make announcments on my train, but the PA wasn't working, but the automated announcments were.(worth every penny of $5.4 million). After the platform was relativitly empty, I proceeded to Wellington where there were I estimate about 50 passengers waiting. For those not familar, the Red line does not stop at Wellington, being that the platform is on the outside track, while the Red line is on the inside of a 4 track mainline. I stopped my train, and informed the riders there was no service to the Loop, and to walk 2 blocks north to Belmont. At Diversey, also on the outside track, there was already a Brown line train already evacuating. I had no clue to what was going on until I got to end of the line at 95th St. where I went upstairs and it was already on the television. I later found out who the operator was, and for obvious reasons will not give it out, nor give my opinion to who was at fault, that's for the geniuses at the National Transportation Safety Board to decide, nor will I give you my opinion on how automatic block signals are far superior to cab signals. I just thank God that it wasn't worse, to my co-workers of the responsibility we have, and not take the job so lackadaisical.
I guess that must have been a 3 hour trip to 95th Street for you. I suppose all the passengers took the Halsted, State, Clark, and Broadway buses to the Loop.
Is anyone else getting the SirCam virus in their email from the above address?
-Hank
Bo, but how are you getting the virus? Are you opening an attachment?
Of course not. It's attached to the email, and very obvious. VirusScan catches it, as will any other competent and up-to-date VS program. Considering who I work for, it would be kinda embarassing to open a known virus email. This particular one spreads by looking for email addresses on web pages in the users cache. So anyone who posted with their email address would likely be getting the email. Funny thing about it is that it's going to my Hotmail account, which I only use for POP mail access from the web.
-Hank
Can somebody pleeeeeeeease explain to me the purpose
of having a dedicated Grand-B'way/Lafayette shuttle
when the 21/Queensbridge to B'way/Lafayette could be
extented to Grand St? Why is necessary to have to
transfer to go 1 station stop? This makes noooooo
sense what so ever. Obviously, the 6th Av shuttle is a
good idea to supplement local "F" service on the lower
end below 34th st, but why was it terminated at
B'way/Laffalot(pun intended) instead of going all the
way to Grand St? This would have helped reduced
confusion on an already confused system. Great idea blockheads.
__________________________________________________
This question has been asked a few dozen times here already. It might pay to search the archives before insulting people.
It would be possible to combine the two shuttles, but due to switch placement, the timing would be pretty sensitive. In particular, all service in both directions from B-L (inclusive) to Grand and back would be operating on the single southbound track. That means that once one train enters B-L, the next train can't enter B-L until the first one goes down to Grand, returns to B-L, and switches over to the northbound track.
>>>It might pay to search the archives before insulting people.<<<
I don't think he was trying to insult us. I believe he was trying to insult the TA. Albeit incorrectly, at least in this case.
Peace,
ANDEE
Insults are insults. They're usually out of place, especially from someone who hasn't done his homework.
I think the shuttles could be combined. It would be slightly tricky but it could be done. I would still like to learn why it's not being done. But I say this after having studied the track maps, so I am aware of (at least some of) the issues it would entail. Notice, too, that I'm not hurling insults at anyone.
>>>>Insults are insults. They're usually out of place, especially from someone who hasn't done his homework. <<<
Agreed.
Peace,
ANDEE
I realize the Sixth Av. Shuttle is a full length train, but the Grand Street Shuttle is only four cars. So I suppose that's also part of the problem as well, sending so many full length trains to Grand Street, then the operator has to walk a full train length to get back in the cab of the last car to leave the station going back uptown. I'm sure turn arounds are easier when you're on a non-revenue track.
But maybe during off-peak hours the two trains can be combined, when there isn't the pressure of another shuttle behind you maybe waiting to come into Grand Street to turn around.
Craig
^
Question... do the T/O's and the C/R's interchange positions in NYC at all on any line?
In Toronto, when a train switches direction, the T/O becomes the C/R and the C/R becomes the T/O. The trains are six cars long and the C/R always sits at the forward end of the fifth car, so that means only two car lengths to walk into position. This allows the train to leave the terminal pretty fast at rush hour.
Unlike Toronto, where everyone is qualified as a TO, our CRs are not. Only TOs can operate the train and only CRs can work the doors (except in OPTO situations, where there is no CR at all). On most lines, the crews 'drop back' upon arrival at the terminal: they do not take out the same train they brought in. This way, upon arrival at a terminal, the TO dumps the train, another crew boards it and can theoretically leave in under a minute.
But maybe during off-peak hours the two trains can be combined, when there isn't the pressure of another shuttle behind you maybe waiting to come into Grand Street to turn around.
What two trains? The two shuttles, QB and Grand St?
Here's what I think:
First of all, the two shuttles are different, in terms of what cars are used. The QB shuttle uses R32 Brightliners. The Grand St shuttle uses a 4-cars set of R46s. Second, the trains are on two different tracks at Bway-Lafayette. That can't work. Unless you have, like 45-minute headways and signal tower workers awake doing all the track switching, it may not work.
That's just my opinion...
CWalNYC
Not a problem at all. Just station an extra T/O at Broadway-Lafayette. As a southbound shuttle pulls in, he boards the last car and gets ready for his tour of duty. At Grand, he takes over. The old T/O gets off at B-L and walks to the other end of the platform while waiting for the next train to arrive.
The shuttle ran like this in 1986-88, but the trains ran on 12-15 minute headways/ Today's shuttle runs much more frequently because of the 63rd. St. line, which wasn't open then. This means more people are riding the shuttle and those headways are unacceptable. I love it when a TA plan comes together.
I believe the current shuttles are running at 12-minute (minimum) headways.
Hmmm, why? More frequent service would be warranted ...
Actually, I was wrong. For a very brief period there are ten-minute headways. Still, the single-track component should, in real life, take less than ten minutes to traverse. If a train gets stuck at Grand, subsequent trains could turn at B-L rather than delaying service.
No can do under the present signal system. Should a train be at Grand St. on B3 track (as was the case back in 1986 when the R27/30 flat wheel shuttle operated from 57/6 to Grand St.), there is no reverse signaling for a wrong rail move back to Bway-Lafayette. The next signal that train will encounter is the one at the north end of Bway Lafayette on B3 track. So, if a train has a problem at Grand St. on B3 track, the next train can not come into Bway-Lafayette because once that train leaves Grand St., a collision course is being set up.
It would be possible to combine the two shuttles, but due to switch placement, the timing would be pretty sensitive.
This has been a real puzzler for me for a long time now. Something I never fully understood was why they have not installed a scissors crossover just north of Grand St. and another one on the Broadway line at Canal St. That way you have a dedicated two-track terminal with a simple relay for either B'way or 6th Av. trains when one side of the Bridge or the other is closed.
Frankly, I'd have liked to see the Orange shuttle run Queensbridge to 2nd Ave. to get people used to that station being a terminal for 6th Ave. local trains, and either the B or the D running express down the dash, terminating at W. 4th. This keeps the shuttle on the local tracks the whole way down and the B or D on the expresses the entire time. If a switch were ever to be installed at Grand, run the B or D to Grand instead of W. 4th.
Cheers,
PJ Dougherty
Publisher, Tracks of the NYC Subway
>Something I never fully understood was why they have not installed a scissors crossover just north of Grand St. and another one on the Broadway line at Canal St. That way you have a dedicated two-track terminal with a simple relay for either B'way or 6th Av. trains when one side of the Bridge or the other is closed.
There are columns there, and they probably don't want to go through the trouble of removing them, shifting the support of the ceiling, and of course, the money this would cost. At Canal, they don't want to bother having a service that just goes express and ends there, when both regular Bway lines (Astoria and Queens Blvd) are already served by tunnel/local trains (63rd St. is usually served by 6th Av., so it is not needed for that either)
To put the answer in plain English (sorry David G.) there are no switches between Bway-Lafayette and Grand Street so there is no way to take a train on the SB track and send it back on the NB track. The nearest switch is north of Bway-Lafayette and that is a single SB to NB switch. Try moving trains effeciently using that.
Will they install new switches? Maybe, but by the time it is: proposed, approved, funded, sent for bid, approval of bids, and work commenced - it will be 2004 and the MB project will be just about finished.
Next time you call anyone a blockhead get your facts straight.
They did it just to confuse you and the Chinese population that live and/or work in that area of Chinatown. There is no technical reason why they can't run the shuttle all the way down from Queensbridge to Grand St.
I mean, this is the sort of anti-TA BS you were looking to hear, right?
And Mr. Conductor would be the first person to bitch and moan when one of the 21st St. to Grand St, shuttles has any kind of problem at Bway Lafayette or Grand St. and you are on the next train which has to be held outside Bway Lafayette because of the single track operation. And guess what? Since your train is late thru the single track operation, the next train is delayed. And it goes on and on and on. I am qualified to make the following statement: Why? Because I worked the 57/6 to Grand St. shuttle back in 1986(?) and this was the #1 operational problem with it! At least with the current set up, if a train at Bway Lafayette blocks the single track, you can turn a train at W.4th back north and keep a regularity of service. I think the current set up works very well, thank you!............And I am getting sick and tired of reading the same question over and over again from SubTalk rookies!!!!!!
At least with the current set up, if a train at Bway Lafayette blocks the single track, you can turn a train at W.4th back north and keep a regularity of service.
Really?
If a train gets stuck at Grand, turn following trains at B-L, as is done now. That's easy enough.
If a train gets stuck at B-L, there's a problem in either case, since the crossover north of B-L doesn't allow southbound trains to reach the northbound track, and trains can't turn at W4 without running express either from or to 34th (the crossover between express tracks is north of the local-express crossovers). The shuttle would have to turn at 2nd Avenue (or, I suppose, Canal or WTC) until the problem is cleared up. But this is a problem regardless of whether the shuttle is supposed to terminate at Grand or at B-L.
Thanks for the insight, anyway.
No, the shuttle would end up doing as I did on Thursday: train arrives on 3 Track, dumps. TO charges opposite end, operates northbound over switch to 4 Track, dumps at 10 Car Reverse marker. Switchman charges south end, pulls train into W.4 St on 4 Track, dumps. Road TO charges north end, operates over switch to 2 Track and proceeds uptown on the local.
Ouch. Is that really faster than running through to 2nd Avenue? What happened that forced you to go through all that?
There was a test train on 3 track at Grand St, creating an absolute block from south of W.4 St.
A test train? As in R-143? What on earth was it doing there, on a dead-end track?
If a train travels to Grand St. via B3 track, the following train is not allowed to relay on B3 track at Bway Lafayette because an "absolute block" is in effect beginning at the homeball protecting the switch which crosses a train from B3 to B4 all the way to Grand St. An "absolute block" is defined as a given stretch of track on which only 1 train is allowed. This is because when the train at Grand St. operates wrong rail on B3 toward Bway-Lafayette, there is no signal protection. Now if the TA wants to spend the money to put reverse signaling in, the circumstances would now be different
True. So send trains to 2nd Avenue (or wherever else) via the local tracks until the problem is cleared up.
That would be the proper move.
Now that we're on the same track (sorry) -- it looks like a combined shuttle would be easily doable, with the one caveat that if there's a problem between B-L and Grand (which would suspend service to Grand in any case), trains would temporarily turn at 2nd (or Canal or WTC). So why isn't it done?
Probably because the 2nd Av. tracks might not be back in service yet, after the switch replacement, and whatever other work they were doing over there.
True, but Canal and WTC are still options. (That might cause some minor rush hour chaos, but even that could be alleviated by sending an occasional A or C to Brooklyn via Rutgers, clearing up space for the shuttle to turn.) Not ideal, but it's not like this sort of thing happens all the time.
Once the V starts up, 2nd Avenue will certainly be ready. Officially, alternate trains could turn at Grand and still fit into the minimum possible headways there, and if something goes wrong at Grand, all V's would turn at 2nd until the problem is cleared up.
There would appear to be no real technical reason why they could not combine the two shuttles. It would mean using a single track between Bway-Lafayette and Grand St because of the switch configuration. The round trip time between Bway-Lafayette and Grand St is 5 minutes. Add a generous 5 minutes to turn the train around at Grand St. The minimum shuttle frequency is 12 minutes. This leaves 2 minutes to spare.
The situation will change in November, when the 63rd St connector is completed. The V will have 6 minute rush hour headways. They will not be able to turn the V at Grand St. They could run half the V's to Grand and the other half to 2nd Ave. This would give them the 12 minute headway needed for single track operation.
The current 6th Ave./63rd St. shuttle runs on a 10 minute headway during the day, which would make single tracking through Broadway/Lafayette almost impossible. Even when this was done in the late 1980's with 12 minute headways, delays were common. I distinctly remember one train of R27's dying at Grand St. in 1986, and service to Grand St. was non-existant for hours. I had to leave the system with a block ticket and re-enter at the Bowery Station.
The current 6th Ave./63rd St. shuttle runs on a 10 minute headway during the day...
According to the schedule on the MTA website, the shuttle leaves 21st St at: 7:59; 8:11; 8:24; 8:35 and 8:59 for an average interval of 12 minutes. At midday it runs every 12 minutes starting at 11:12.
1.There's no crossover befor Grand street
2.The only reason the 6th avenue shuttle is there because the MTA can't close Lexington avenue,Roosevelt Island and 21street Queensbridge.
3.I don't think the MTA are blockheads.
4.If the TA wanted to confuse us there would be a hell of alot more shuttle trains.
(by the way,I left out the M in TA purposely)
"TA" and "MTA" refer to different entities.
SubTalk like you've never seen!
-Dan
:)
I should block that site from acccessing my server right now. Heh.
[BEFORE]: I should block that site from acccessing my server right now. Heh
[AFTER]:Murdock should block that darn site from acccessing Mr.T server right now. This milk better not have no sleepin' powder or nothin' in it. Heh. Murdock... is this your chicken?
LoL.
Too funny. :-)
That was very creative.LOL
Nice Job!
Chuck Greene
Heeping praise upon the wrong folks. You should see what it does to some more serious sites.
-Hank
Very funny. But, be warned I would not click and download on any of the links they add to the altered postings. Unknown entity and all. Be careful. If 'ya know what I mean.
Peace,
ANDEE
The links seem to be wav files (sound files, probably a recording of Mr. T actually saying something), but I didn't try clicking them so I don't know.
Yes, they seem to be .WAV files but I refuse to take ANY chances. If you know what I Mean.
Peace,
ANDEE
I checked 'em, they're safe ... seem to be snippets of "A train" ... errrr ... "team" ... whutchootalkin'bout Willis?
Thx, u can never b sure
Wav files?
Your media player will open, and if they're not really waves, they loading will fail. You can't get a virus from a wave file.
It's not "Watchootalkinbout Willis. That was Gary Coleman on Diffrent Strokes. MR. T was "Watchootalkinbout fool". It's easy to get mixed up. (Remember the time Gary Coleman (Arnold) tried to be Mr. T ?)
Gary Coleman-- Railfan -- I wonder where he is now
He still drives a HUMMER and last sighted as a security guard. Not kidding ...
I did have them straight (for once) and that was exactly the "inside joke" I was trying to play. Thanks for being the FIRST to notice it! :)
WHAT IN THE NAME OF GOD IS THIS?? SOME FAKE ASS COPY OF SUBTALK?
It's a "Harlem", "Boston's South end", "E street" version of subtalk.
Poor Mister T ... first hawking a cheesy long distance company and now this ... wowsers. :)
WHAT IN THE NAME OF GOD IS THIS?? SOME FAKE ASS COPY OF SUBTALK?
SubTalk is subleasing office space from Clinton in Harlem. Certain concessions had to be made.
Fool! Chump! Heh.
Why do porridge birds lay their eggs in the air?
Peace.
ANDEE
Actually the exact question (from an interview I did years ago with Proctor and Bergman on WNEW) is "Why does the porridge bird lay HIS egg in the air?" ... needless to say, felt like a real dummy when they corrected me. :)
hehe
LMAO!!! Pure comedy ...
I spent almost a week in Toronto and I may just have a new favorite subway. I'm just looking at things from a tourist's point of view, now, and I have to say I have no idea how well the system serves the needs of the people of Toronto who use it to get to work every day. Also, since there is only one model of car in the two main line so of the system, some railfans may not like the lack of variety, but I enjoyed my rides nonetheless.
That said, The Bombardier T1 cars have a lot of charm to them. Their classic simple design makes no concessions to moderninty, but at the same time, they look like they were made yesterday. The pale silver color of the brushed stainless steel and the old-fashioned red-and white TTC logo makes them look like a new Lionel passenger train set just opened on a Christmas morning long before I was born. The railfan seat faces backward, which I didn't like at first, but after I got used to sitting sideways, I got a really good view with my face right against the glass.
The stations on the Bloor-Danforth line weren't fancy. In fact, they were downright drab in the style of the 1960s public school cafeteria. But I like them anyway because with nothing more than paint and cleaning products they have kept them looking like new and shiny. It showed me that clean sttractive stations aren't out of reach for any system. SEPTA stations could look this good with a little effort. What's more, most stations are very well lit which makes it easier to take picture. On the same line, my favorite station was Old Mill, an elevated station, one of few in the whole system. It's over a steep valley, next to a pretty steel bridge. East of down town, the line crosses another deep valley with nice views between Castle Frank and Broadview stations.
The Yonge-Spadina line has some newer looking stations, especially on the northern parts of its two branches. This line is fun because it dips underground and comes up above ground often, breaking up the monotony. All the stations in the system are covered, even those that are above ground. The Davisville station is a great place to take pictures becuase there is a small trainyard right there, as is TTC's offices. A pedestrian bridge just south of the station offers great views and photo ops. The main Wilson yard is on the Spadina branch of the line, south of the northern terminal at Downsview. This yard is harder to photograph, though, because it's farther from any stations.
The area around Sheppard station on the Yonge branch of the line is a booming area with lots of high rises and more under construction. It's been called a second downtown, and a new subway line is under construction running east from there under Sheppard avenue.
I also rode the Scarborough Rapid Transit. It is a cute little elevated line, smaller than a heavy subway, but feeling more like a subway than light rail. It ran four-car trains with gallery seating, and power came through a third rail as in a heavy line.
I had a great time riding the streetcars and a GM fishbowl, but lots has already been said about them, so I'll just say I can't wait to go back.
Mark
The rolling stock is more varied than it seems. In addtion to T1s on both lines there are H5s on Yonge-University-Spadina and H4s (these days only one or two trains make it out during rush hours due to a surplus of T1s that will exist until the Sheppard line opens next year) and H6s on the Bloor-Danforth line.
Also, the subway cars aren't made out of stainless steel, but have aluminum panels on top of a steel frame. The aluminum body panels can look deceptively like stainless steel. The other main yard, in addition to Wilson, is located a little southwest of Greenwood station and they quite often have a variety of work cars parked outside.
-Robert King
I thought the color of those trains was too light to be steel, much more like aluminum, but I'd never heard of subway cars being made of aluminium. I guess my first hunch was right.
Is the Sheppard subway that close to completion? What's the target opening date? I'll try to plan my next trip for sometime after that so I can ride it.
All London Underground cars are now made of Aluminium as are many main line sets.
Simon
Swindon UK
The Sheppard Subway is scheduled to open in the summer of 2002 (barring any problems).
The TTC embraced aluminum as the material of choice for subway car bodies early on. The original subway cars, the Gloucsters, were made out of steel and ended up weighing 40% more than anybody expected leading to an experimental group of six Gloucster cars to have aluminum replacing steel for the body panels to see how much of a weight and performance improvement there would be. The improvements in terms of weight reduction and lower maintainance (no need to paint them) led the TTC to specify aluminum for all post-Gloucster subway cars.
With respect to your earlier comments about the T1s looking like they were made yesterday, they were. The oldest T1s were made in 1996 and the last ones are expected to arrive from Thunder Bay this September, hence their new appearance. Their basic design is the result of continuous evolution from the original 75' design of the Montrealer cars from 1962 which is why the T1's appearance is very similar to the M1's appearance which could possibly make them look old compared the newest rolling stock elsewhere like the R142 in New York. This is also why you might not have noticed the other classes of subway car out on the TTC's subway lines if you have the luck of catching a train of T1s every time because outwardly they all look quite similar, however the visual appearance of the interiors in terms of colour selection, use of wood trim if applicable, etc. are quite different although the basic design/layout of the interior is quite similar between car types.
-Robert King
Where is Naporano Scrap Yard? Photos of Redbirds and R30s and such are in the Scrapyards section of this site. I suspect it is near the NJ ports. I know of one major scrap metal processor in Port Newark called NIMCO Scrap Metal. They have a very large operation down there. Will this be one of the places the Redbirds will go?
-Dan
1.Is it possible to build a double level elevated line on 2nd avenue and if so,how long will it take and will it impact the enviroment?
2.Is it possible to build tracks to connect with the 6 at worth street?
3.Does the Brooklyn IRT or Brooklyn for the matter need anoher subway line?
4.Is it possile to build an elevated terminal at Water street and Peal?
5.Can the MTA use a BMT to build a tunnel connecting Staten Island with Manhatthan without messing up the enviroment?
6.For an elevated line to stop at the already Grand street station,where will the tunnel portal have to be ?
7.Does the 2 and 5 lines in the Bronx need another subway line?
8.How much will it cost to build all of these?
9.How long will the enviromental hearings be?
10.How lon will it take to build all of these without "messing up" the New York skyline?
10.How long will it take to build the Second avenue line without messing up the enviroment?
I see the Q part of the subject but where is the A part?
1) I may be wrong, but I thought it was going to be underground, not elevated
3) What does this have to do with the 2nd avenue (manhattan) line? Brooklyn doesn't "need" another line, but areas that get subways tend to grow faster, so putting in another one, say from Coney Island to Canarsie (imagine extending the L train to Coney Island) would provide subway service to a large area that doesn't have it already. Just my opinion
5) I think this question was asked in an earlier post (a few days ago). I think the answer was something like yes, but it'd take many years.
7) Could you clarify this question
8) $1.99 plus tax
9) The environmental hearings are tomorrow, and construction begins bright and early Sunday morning.
10) I'd say about 3 weeks.
(answers 8, 9, and 10 are not meant seriously)
You are wrong,Brooklyn does need more subways. A Flatbush ave line,Utica ave line, Crosstown line[via the LIRR]Styvesant ave subway linking to the Utica line,aline from Houston st to williamsburg Flushing ave to Downtown. A direct connection to Jamaica from downtown Brooklyn via Fulton st IND connection to Jamaica EL at Bway East NY.
You are wrong,Brooklyn does need more subways. A Flatbush ave line,Utica ave line, Crosstown line[via the LIRR]Styvesant ave subway linking to the Utica line,aline from Houston st to williamsburg Flushing ave to Downtown. A direct connection to Jamaica from downtown Brooklyn via Fulton st IND connection to Jamaica EL at Bway East NY. A Lower Manhattan connection between the stubend local at World Trade Center and the Court st IND STATION of the Fulton st line[and or the Cortlandt st station]this would remove the C trains from merging with A trains in fact killing those pain in the ass headways.
Here's a follow-up question.....Instead of just running the 2nd ave subway along the 6 line in the Bronx, what about making it a "cross bronx" line and have it connect with all the Bronx lines, terminating somewhere near Woodlawn?
Sound GREAT to me. But, the again I'm biased.
Peace,
ANDEE
resident of woodlawn
Would it go up first, and then across (up maybe along the 4 line, and then go across bronx to hit the D, 2/5, 6)...
or, would it go along the 6 line, and then go across to Woodlawn
Either way, it sounds like a long route
I was actually thinking the reverse and oops!!! i almost forgot it would have to hit Van Cortlandt Park to get the 1. Long, but a connection to every line in the Bronx. Mybe keep it completely underground and build transfers like 161 st from the D to the 4.
This is conceptually similar to the 125th Street crosstown I proposed, only a bit further north. I'd be happy to see either one, although I think 125th Street has the greater need.
I assert that the costs of constructing a 125th Street cross-town line far outweigh any benefits.
The main purpose for building such a line is to provide Upper West Side residents with access to Midtown East, and Upper East Side residents with access to Midtown West. For the purposes of this message, I use Upper East Side to mean East Harlem, and Upper West to include everything from the Morningside Heights to Inwood. Both Upper East and Upper West Side riders already have direct access to downtown.
A 125th Street cross-town subway would indeed accomplish this goal. An uptown commuter on one side could now reach the opposing side of midtown with only one or two transfers.
However, my main argument against constructing such a line is that there already is a two (or three) seat ride to the opposing side of midtown. It's called the crosstown-IRT and the Times Square-GCT shuttle.
I feel strongly that transit funds should be dedicated to introducing service into new or undeserved areas before we start duplicating existing service.
There is the argument that uptown residents have no convenient subway access to the opposing side of uptown, but no ridership study has ever indicated that this is a commuter pattern relatively in need of mass-transit relief. It's simply not possible or practical to provide direct subway service for everyone to every other point in the city.
Due to the high cost of subway construction, service should remain dedicated to covering the most popular commuter routes. Other forms of rapid-transit, such as cross-town busses, will have to do for the less popular commuter routes until the cost of subway construction comes down. At a billion dollars and a life lost per mile of tunneling (engineering rule of thumb), I wouldn't hold my breath,
MATT-2AV
Also that 125 Street crosstown line/ shuttle would have to have special tunneling for earthquakes. Cause with that fault would cause havoc on that line if a minor quake were to happen. SO it would be even more expensive to do that process. But a 125 crosstown shuttle would do alot. It would take crowds off of the 2 line.
A 125th Street crosstown line would have three primary (related) functions: northwest-to-southeast access, access to the 2nd Avenue line at all from the West Side, and a full crosstown line north of 42nd Street.
The first point is easily missed by those who have never tried to make such a commute, but look at your friendly subway map. With the one exception of the Broadway BMT, which doesn't run north of 60th Street in Manhattan, none of the north-south lines on the West Side penetrate east of Sixth Avenue until Houston Street. Traffic from the northeast to the southwest has a number of options: the 2/3 runs from the central Bronx to Lenox Avenue and then west again to Broadway and 7th Avenue; the 63rd Street line connects passengers from 63rd and Lex to 6th Avenue and is planned to carry trains directly from 2nd Avenue to 7th Avenue and Broadway; the N/R/W connect the 4/5/6 to Broadway; the E/F connect the 6 to Broadway. About ten years ago, I lived on the Upper West Side (as I do now) and had a summer job at NYU Medical Center; the ride consisted of 3-4 short train rides with one particularly annoying transfer, and that only got me as far as 33rd and Park. If I had lived on the Upper East Side and worked, say, at the Javits Center, I would have gotten by with only one transfer, from the 6 to the E. The problem is no different further north on the 1/9: from all the way up at Van Cortlandt Park, the only additional transfer point is at 168th Street to the A/C, which isn't of much assistance.
Let's consider the proposed route of the 2nd Avenue line. It would come in from the Bronx and run down (surprise) 2nd Avenue. One branch would continue down 2nd, merging, perhaps, with a line from Queens; the other would run across 63rd, perhaps becoming our now-familiar Q. Except at 63rd, none of the existing crosstown links north of 14th -- N/R/W, E/F, S, 7 -- will offer transfers to the new line. Without a "back door" entry at 125th, the only access from the northwest to the southeast on 2nd Avenue will be south to 42nd, back north, east, and north again along 63rd to the first stop north of 63rd on 2nd, and then "up and over" to the southbound side again. The long walk to NYU Medical Center would be shortened, but walking from the 6 at Park would still be faster than going three miles out of my way. (Granted, a link at 125th would take me almost four miles out of my way, but it would be only one transfer away, and it would be a clear gain for anyone north of 125th to begin with.) With only the proposed connections, the 2nd Avenue line would be effectively useless to anyone trying to reach 2nd Avenue in Midtown from the northwest.
I don't know where you get your idea that there is no need for improvements to crosstown service. The M79 and M86 recently started running artics, yet they often fill up to near-capacity at their first stops, even off-peak. Between large crowds waiting to board at each stop and heavy traffic, it sometimes takes over 30 minutes to reach Lex from Broadway -- and that's with the help of the (usually speedy) park transverses. (It's actually faster at times to ride the subway down to 42nd, across, and back up, despite the intense crowds at 42nd.) A number of bus routes run across 125th, but, like those further south, they all fill up and move slowly.
In your own words, you "feel strongly that transit funds should be dedicated to introducing service into new or undeserved areas before we start duplicating existing service." What existing service would a 125th Street crosstown duplicate? Like the M15 on 2nd Avenue, the bus is inadequate; even moreso than the 4/5/6 on Lex, the 42nd Street shuttle is just plain out of reach for those up north.
1. It is possible but every body would oppose it from here to kingdom come. It would take 2 years to 4 years to complete.
2. No, because the Second Avenue Line will use B division cars and all stations along the lexington Avenue line below 42 Street is built for IRT specs so B division cars will not fit.
3. Yeah to Starrett City.
4. Yes, it would, but again people would fight it from here to kingdom come.
5. Yes, newer technologies makes the process very enviornmentally friendly. So impact to the enviornment will be small.
6. There can be no portal. No place to put it.
7. No
8. Cost of building a second avenue line is anywhere b/t 15 and 20 billion dollars.
9. Few months
10. Unknown cause people will delay it, and other unknown reasons.
9. Few months
A few months?? Which major transportation project in recent memory has had only a few months of environmental hearings? (Maybe it would take only a few months for NIMBYs and influential opposition members to kill the project, but certainly that's not enough time if you expect the thing to pass the environmental studies and get built.)
Redbird Injures Young Child
Link To Newsday Article 08/03/01
http://www.newsday.com/news/daily/drag803.htm
That's like blaming the gun for shooting someone.
Its not the train, its the conductor.
They test the train crews for drugs - have they ever tested their vision?
I find it difficult to accept that a conductor looking out of the window and observing the platform (or looking in the TV monitors where they are mounted) can miss someone caught in a door unless they aren't looking or they can't see beyond the end of their nose.
For my friends here who are conductors, please forgive me but this is a valid observation.
BAD REDBIRD BAD!!!! (Or redhorse?)
Today, It's our continuing saga of 2001: A Train Odyssey.
I hadn't planned on this topic for today's column. In fact, I was all set to
write about living life on call. However, last night's journey into the
unknown was truly that, the unknown.
By the ruling of a Federal Arbitrator, we are now allowed to have unassigned
inter-divisional runs. An interdivisional run is one that carries a single
crew across two or more crew districts without stopping for a crew change,
just one crew handles it all the way through.
We do this periodically on intermodal trains in and out of Chicago. They
decide it is time to try it again and again, although it never seems to work
to their satisfaction. We run through Champaign without stopping and take
the train all the way to Centralia. There are agreements to allow Champaign
crews to be involved here to "recapture" mileage. That is, to work some of
the trips so as not be shut out here. In fact, they actually operate more of
the trains than the Chicago crews as more of the mileage run is on the
Champaign Sub.
Previously through arbitration awards and Federal mandates of Congress,
interdivisional or ID runs have been around for years. Railroads like the
BNSF (former ATSF) have been using them on virtually all runs between
Chicago and Kansas City for years. Crew change points of Chillicothe, IL and
Marceline, MO were eliminated and crews now operate out of Fort Madison, IA
east to Chicago or west to Kansas City.
The previous ID awards and mandates required that such runs be assigned.
This means that they are regular jobs with regular crews, not just operated
out of the pool of first in and first out. The IC and now CNIC wanted that
changed for years. Thanks to a recent arbitrator's ruling, they got their
wish. They company now has the opportunity to have unassigned ID runs. Didn'
t take long for a Republican administration to again make its presence felt
against labor.
So last night, I was awarded the opportunity to get the first such run. I
received the call to take a grain train from Chicago to Decatur. Prior to
the arbitrator's ruling, we would take the train from Chicago to Champaign,
change crews there and the Champaign crew take it to Decatur via Mattoon, IL
and the connection to the Peoria Sub taking the train north to Decatur. Or,
we would go via the Gilman Sub and hand the train over to a crew at Clinton,
IL and they would proceed to Mt Pulaski, IL and make a left turn onto the
Peoria Sub and head south the Decatur. Now, we would go all the way through
to Decatur via the Gilman Sub using the connection at Mt Pulaski.
It sounds oh so simple right? Now remember, this is the railroad. The very
industry that can take routine tasks and turn them into spectacular feats.
We were ordered for 1900 hours on a TG86061-01. Something new here, the
letter T. As close as we can figure, the T must be for turn back home as
that was what we were told we would do. Of course, they failed to mention
this little aspect to me when they called, not that I would have trusted
them anyway. Remember what happened to us on July 4th when we supposed to be
cabbed home?
I arrive at Homewood about 1845 and see my Conductor is already there and
looking into the computer for our train symbol. He tells me that we will be
cabbed home. Oh ya, like I really believe that one.
1900 hours rolls around and we have no paperwork in the fax machine. The
CNIC recently adopted the CN and GT system of bulletins called TGBO or
Tabular General Bulletin Orders. This is akin to the General Orders we
previously used, Conrail's Bulletin Orders and Norfolk Southern's Train
Dispatcher Bulletin but with a twist, each General Bulletin Order (GBO) on
the TGBO has a specific number attached to it. Instead of just being an item
or line number, it is assigned a permanent number for as long as that item
is in effect. For example, on the Chicago Sub there is a speed restriction
of 60 mph for passenger and 40 mph for freight between milepost 59 and 63.
It is assigned GBO number 1634. As long as it is in effect in this manner,
it will always be GBO 1634. If it is to be voided or cancelled to a train,
another GBO is issued canceling that GBO. This harkens us back to the old
train order system where a train order was issued to annul another train
order.
Okay, now back to our story.
There are no TGBO's in the special fax machine used only for transmitting
TGBO's to trains. Like the old clearance card and train order system, each
train is issued its own set of TGBO's. The TGBO's are designed for the route
of each particular train. This uncomplicates our lives quite a bit, as we
don't get speed restrictions and other bulletins and information that are
not relevant to our particular train. Each TGBO will have a number assigned
to it, a date, the issuing location and the train symbol to which it is
addressed.
Now, there is a blanket form used for trains that will only operate over a
designated portion of track such as only trackage within the Chicago
Terminal or Champaign Terminal. These forms are called Daily Operating
Bulletins or DOB's. Normally road switchers and short locals will get DOB's.
They have a blanket address such as "Chicago Terminal DOB DOB No 1743", the
time and date effective.
These two forms are very different in that through trains are not supposed
to use DOB's as they are issued TGBO's. Okay, got all this? There will be a
quiz later so concentrate.
Again, back to our story. Snidely Whiplash has the beautiful Nell tied to
the tracks while Dudley Do Right enjoys tea with Inspector Fenwick.. No
wait, wrong story. I guess I've digressed so much that I almost forgot what
I was here for.
So we have no TGBO's and nobody seem to know how to generate them to us.
Apparently nobody has entered this new train and route into the system. So
after numerous phone calls begging and pleading for our required papers, we
are getting nowhere rather quickly.
"We must see your papers. You cannot leave without your papers!"
The powers that be seem to be totally helpless at this point. Nobody
anywhere seems to be able to assist us in our endeavor to get our papers. So
a compromise plan is worked out. We will take a set of DOB's to get us
across the terminal. "They" will attempt to correct the lost TGBO situation
and have them ready for us upon our return to Markham as we attempt to take
the train south and out of the Chicago Terminal. This is plan A and as we
all know, "Plan A never had a chance anyway."
It seems that our train is sitting up in Chicago at the Cermak Control
Point. This is just west of 21st Street where Amtrak and Norfolk Southern's
Chicago Line cross the Freeport East Sub, formerly known as the Bridgeport
District. We will need our papers to get past "Checkpoint Cermak" and all
the other locations between there and Markham and out as far south as
Stuenkel. Milepost 31.6. So with DOB's in hand, or pocket as they get pretty
nasty if you constantly hold them, we board the Midwest Railroad
Transportation cab and head to Cermak departing Markham at 1945.
Our arrival at Cermak is at 2035. We board the train and I proceed to
inspect the power while Charlie checks for handbrakes. Upon completion of my
pre-trip walk around and setting up shop in the cab, I notify Chicago North
we are ready to proceed. We depart Cermak at 2053 with engines IC 1031 and
1027 (two SD70's) and 72 loads, no empties for 9250 tons an 4446 feet of
train.
We roll along on track two down to 67th Street and stop at the stop signal
there. It seems that Markham is suffering from an acute lack of space and
trains are everywhere. There is a 338 train on track one at Kensington short
on time and no room for him at the Markham Inn. Amtrak 392 is coming and has
to use track number two between Kensington and 67th Street, the cross over
there to track one. There is also Amtrak 59 in the picture although he is
late out of Union Station and isn't a major factor at the second.
In the meantime, "They" are debating whether to turn us loose or hold us for
59 who is now just out of the depot, but a ways behind us as he has to
thread through a considerable amount of 10 mph track to get onto the Chicago
Sub. It is finally decided to run us first. This after a seventeen minute
wait. Here we go again.
As we pass Harvey, the north end of Markham Yard, there is a flurry of
activity with an extra switcher pulling the autos that inbound 281 set out
at Highlawn to connect with outbound 184. The MIT job is working at Harvey,
325 is waiting for everything to clear so he can head north. I almost
forgot, 281's power is following us back from Kensignton as he returns from
delivering the rest of his autos to the NS at Calumet Yard. NS 317 is now
also in the picture as he calls for the signal at 95th Street to enter the
Chicago Sub there.
I have an approach signal at block signal 220.57. As I approach the signal
at 222.11, I cannot see any aspect displayed at all. This is a two-unit
signal meaning there are two separate units that display signals as it is
the distant signal governing the signal at the Homewood control point. None
of them are illuminated. So, I reduce to restricted speed before passing.
This is a tricky area as the track bends a couple of times between here and
Homewood. There are trains parked everywhere and I observe several markers
flashing. With the bends in the track, we get all sorts of optical illusions
here, so I use all sorts of care and caution. I should also mention that I
was restricted speed tested in this area about three weeks ago as well.
Passed with flying colors.
We arrive at the Homewood Amtrak platform at 2220 after being told the
Trainmaster will bring our TGBO's to us there. While waiting for him to
board, 59 pulls in along side of us at the Homewood station and boards the
passengers waiting to head to points south. Chicago North calls and tells us
we will follow 59 south. But wait, the plot thickens. We now hear 184
doubling up and preparing to leave. He is laden with intermodal and the
autos from 281.
As I revue the TGBO's just handed to me I discover a serious problem; the
portion we need to operate on the Chicago Sub south of Stuenkel is missing.
It is not even issued. All we have are the Gilman and Peoria Sub portions
and the heading only shows those as being issued to our train, no Chicago
Sub included. Hmm, being that as it may (and it probably isn't) this
officially means we can't get there from here. I immediately notify "Car 22"
the radio title for this particular Trainmaster, that he must get on the
phone and call those "They" folks and tell them we have no Chicago Sub
portion.
"We have no papers!" Can't tell I like those old spy movies can you?
Finally, Car 22 heads over to Network Operations at Homewood and gets a
couple of photocopies of the desk 2 back up copy TGBO. He makes copies and
has the lovely Jennifer working desk 2 (Chicago South) to endorse that these
TGBO's are being issued to our train over her signature. As this is a master
copy, it has GBO's for every portion of the railroad desk 2 dispatches. I
have to go through it to discern what does and does not apply to our train.
With that handled we finally depart Homewood at 2240.
At last, off to the races. We raced towards Peotone as I heard 184 calling
to depart Markham. I am now playing Dispatcher of the mind and trying to
project where 184 will be allowed to run around us. I am guessing Gar Creek
siding on Kankakee's far south side. We are running on clear signals so I'm
thinking my guess is pretty sound. Just as I get comfortable with my logic,
the real world reaches up and bites me in the posterior.
"CNIC Chicago South to the 1031 over." Uh oh, I just know this is not going
to be good.
"IC 1031 south over."
"Can you get stopped at South Peotone between the signals on the main track
over?"
Now, do I pretend I didn't hear that and keep racing along at 60 mph and
then ask the night guy that has just taken over to repeat that? Or do I
ignore him altogether just for a couple of moments so as to reach that point
of no return where I will not be able to stop safely short of South Peotone?
I can always use the excuse that I was whistling the closely spaced
crossings at Peotone, so I could not be distracted.
"Uh, ya, if you really want me too, over." Am I an idiot or what?
So I immediately begin to slow the train and start bringing it to a stop at
South Peotone. As I am down to about 14 mph and sinking fast, the signal at
South Peotone changes from a stop signal to a clear signal.
"Now what the hell is this all about?" I mutter out loud.
I reach over to ring him up when he calls me and tells me to keep going as
we have been delayed enough already.
No wonder I drink!
So now I get to start working on them again. We accelerate from about 8 mph
back towards track speed.
As I roll towards Kankakee, I spot an approach signal at block signal 52.5,
the approach to KX the south end of Kankakee Siding and also the crossing of
NS's Kankakee Secondary. It then hits me that we are already catching up to
397 who had come out at Matteson off the EJ&E and followed 59 out of
Stuenkel. As I prepare to begin reducing speed to be ready to stop at KX,
the signal pops up clear. Cool, he cleared the block!
I slow for the 30 mph through Kankakee and begin to resume speed when the
tail end of the train clears the Kankakee River Bridge. We have three 40 mph
speed restrictions ahead of us between here and Gilman and 397 gains some
ground on us as I never see anything worse than an advance approach signal
until North Gilman. We get an approach there and I hear some conversation
from 554, the Clinton-Gilman local doing some work over the radio. Chicago
South converses with him to see what sort of work he has at Gilman.
In the meantime, 184 is catching us as I slow to stop at Gilman. 397 has met
398 at Rt. 24 south of town at Gilman. As many of you may recall from past
posts, this is the world's greatest railroad parking lot. We roll to a stop
at 0015 and wait for the local to do his work. Yes, nothing like single
track at a strategic location where trains stop to do work, interchanges are
affected to and from the TP&W, this same TP&W crosses the Chicago Sub and
the Gilman Sub diverges.
184 is given permission to pass the stop signal at North Gilman and closes
up ranks behind us. There are now three, count 'em three trains stopped. And
then I hear the TPW calling also looking to get across and then come around
to pick up the cars 184 will set out for him. Railroading in the 21st
century, it gets no better than this.
Finally, 554 clears up and releases his track warrant on the Gilman Sub. We
get one and proceed at 0051. We wind through the 10 mph connection to the
Gilman Sub, get all straight and take off. But not without problems. I
observe a block signal up ahead a bit pumping from clear to approach. It is
clear when I go past it, but as we approach signal 89.9 at the north end of
Thawville, I see it pumping from clear to restricted proceed with a lunar
light. This lunar light is very important. There is a spring switch at the
north end of Thawville Siding. If that lunar light does not illuminate when
the signal drops to restricted proceed, I would have to stop before passing
the switch. Charlie would have to get out and then go hand operate the
switch. Instead, I can proceed without stopping at restricted speed. This
could very easily be a test if that lunar light is not illuminated. They
weed watchers could be setting a trap to see if we respond to the rules
correctly. Being the lunar light is illuminating, I cautiously figure it is
not a test, but still do not let my guard down.
We get back on the clear at the south end of Thawville and take off again.
As we roll on I see another approach signal only this one is not pumping. It
is just an approach. I drop the throttle gradually using the ruling grade at
Roberts to slow the train as I pass signal 94.7. We come over the hill and
around the corner and I can clearly see the next signal at 96.9 is clear.
Hmm, perhaps the bulb in the clear aspect is burned out completely. So as
not to have a completely dark signal, it drops to the next working aspect,
which is approach.
We roll along uneventful to Clinton where I pick up my Pilot, Wilbur
Clayton. I have not operated south of Clinton on the main track in over four
years. Federal law and company rules require that I have a pilot ride with
me if I have not operated over a track segment in over a year. A pilot is an
employee assigned to a train when the Conductor or Engineer or both are not
familiar with the rules or physical characteristics of the railroad over
which the train is to be operated.
We exchange greetings and necessary information and take off again. We
arrived at Mt Pulaski, the station where we will enter the Peoria Sub and
exit the Gilman Sub for the final leg of the trip to Decatur. I have never
operated over the Peoria Sub and will get a pilot here for that leg of the
trip.
As I am pulling the train to a stop at the switch that leads us to the
Peoria District, I hear RDC-09 a turn around job that works between Mt
Pulaski and Decatur on the radio. The Engineer and Conductor are conversing
about motive power problems. I then hear him tell the Peoria Sub Dispatcher
that he has an engine down and is about to stall on Warranceburg Hill. This
is the ruling grade between Mt Pulaski and Decatur and has spoiled many the
trip I am told. Yet another delay.
RDC-09 has to wind up doubling the hill and taking his train to Decatur in
two pieces. For the return trip though, he grabs some road power lying over
at Decatur to bring with him and assist. Being that the Peoria District is
dark (non-signaled) it is controlled by track warrant control. Without
cabooses there are no provisions for flag protection to the rear of your
train. The track warrant issued in non-signaled territory essentially
creates an absolute block in which no other train can enter without proper
provisions on the track warrant. So we sit and wait for a total of 28
minutes.
When RDC-09 has the tail end of train south of Milepost 62 at Latham, we are
given a track warrant to that point. We start around the wye onto the Peoria
Sub and pick up the new pilot Ronnie Lord AKA "R Lord." I've known Ronnie
pretty well for quite some time so at least will have a good time while we
sit and wait even more. I stopped the train around milepost 60 instead of
62 like the track warrant allowed. The hill into Warranceburg likes to eat
heavy tonnage trains for snacks. We do not wish to have the same peril
befall us and stall. Even though I have good power, it is very humid and the
rail is wet. We don't desire any more of a struggle than necessary. And for
as well as this trip has gone thus far, why invite trouble? Is seems to be
finding us quite nicely on its own.
After a 40 minute wait, we get another track warrant to proceed to Decatur.
Ronnie tells me to get right after them when we start pulling again. I did
and they ran pretty well, I did get a very healthy 40 out of them before we
got into the meat and potatoes of the grade. With good power we only dropped
to about 18 mph at the peak of the grade.
We finally arrived at Decatur at 0540, yarded the train and tied up the
power. The Illini Limo was waiting for us and we indeed headed back home.
They actually got us home like they said on the first try.
It was bound to happen sooner or later.
Our tie up at Markham occurred at 1030 and that as they say, is that.
And so it goes.
Tuch
Visit the BLE Division 10 Web site at http://div10.tripod.com/homepage.html
Hot Times on the High Iron, c 2001
As recording to SEPTA's website. Route 101 would run buses from Smedley park to Bowling Green. Now I never knew there was a stop called Smedley Park! Is there a stop on the 101 called Smedley Park? And why it's not on the 101 Route map?
I'm not real sure, but I've passed Smedley Park on the 101 line on my ride to Media. As to the location, it's I think between Springfield Mall & Pine Ridge. It's just a little flag stop. If they truncate the trolley line between the two points mentioned, do they strand a trolley in Media so it runs back and forth between the end of the line in Media & Bowling Green? Where does the bus pick you up near Smedley Park???
Chuck Greene
idk where it would pick people up at that stop. BUT it's that there's some work going on that they have to close it down from 7 AM to 7 PM on August 12.
The 101 used to terminate at Bowling Green (Providence Rd, end of private R/W) when State St was closed for any reason. State St often does close for fairs, festivals, etc. Buses usually provide the service from there, using Baltimore Pike to reach Orange St in Media. In days gone by, many of the State St closures involved one of the old center door cars providing replacement service as a single shuttle, meeting regular trips at Bowling Green.
Smedley Park is the park between the Paper Mill Rd and Pine Ridge stops, west of Springfield Mall. I don't think there was ever a stop officially called Smedley Park, although I do recall Paper Mill Rd having this as a secondary name since it's near a trail through the park.
Thanks alot! Now just to let everybody know on what buses would be use on the 101 SHUTTLE would be serve by 30 Foot ElDorados from Red Arrow.
The most logical choice for the bus shuttle would be one of the ElDorados, since there is a large group of them assigned to the Victory Depot (Red Arrow). Since the remainder of 101 west of Bowling Green is less than a mile, the 30' bus should suffice for the 'crowds'.
I think just 2 ElDorados for the 101 SHUTTLE. One for use on 101 SHUTTLE. The other is back up for that bus(Like the Driver have to go to LUNCH,Bus broke down,stuff like that).
What SEPTA could have done was to run the SHUTTLE All the way to Ornage St in Media instead of haveing to waste a TROLLEY for the remender of the line.
And Red Arrow don't uses ElDorados on Sundays too much. The 114 and 305 happin to run ElDorados on Sundays. And could pop up on 110 on Sundays as well.
At least haveing some ElDorados that stay in the yard on Sundays is OK. BUT at least these buses are at least are going to be in good use!
And Sunday riderdhip levels must be LOW I think.
So they will have a trolley from Bowling Green (Providence Rd.)to the end of the end of the line. I guess that trolley is stranded and can never make it back to the 69th st. yard?
Chuck Greene
The work starts at 7:00 AM on the dot! And ends at 7:00 PM on the dot! So a TROLLEY would be stranded from 7:00 AM to 7:00 PM next sunday. So idk why SEPTA done that to stranded a TROLLEY from Bowing Green to Ornage St. When they could extend the 101 SHUTTLE to Ornage St instead of Bowing Green witch seems a better idea then haveing to stranded a TROLLEY.
Who ever in SEPTA did this idea should get a whip on their back!!
It would seem a lot easier to run the bus all the way down to Orange
St. Don't forget, the street the trolley runs on is very narrow, so the bus would have to use Baltimore Pike and some other streets to
tun around and head back to Smedley Park (Paper Mill Road).
That's the nice thing about the trolley, it runs down the middle of the street and changes ends right there.
Chuck Greene
I think the ElDorados could run on State St without a problem. The ElDorados are NARROW With. At the most the ElDorados are 96" With so it could handle State St in Meida without any problems.
At Ornage St. it should go down Ornage St to Baltmore Pike, Baltmore Pike to Jackson St, Jackson St to State St,Then normal 101 Route.
The other bus that are 96" with are Neoplan AN440's. I think a 40 Foot bus would have a problem turning onto the streets from State St.
I wounder if the 110 ever ran on State St when they have to close down Baltmore Pike?
And also they have enough speed to keep up with cars.
this should be in bustalk
I think the ElDorados could run on State St without a problem. The ElDorados are NARROW With. At the most the ElDorados are 96" With so it could handle State St in Media without any problems.
At Ornage St. it should go down Ornage St to Baltmore Pike, Baltmore Pike to Jackson St, Jackson St to State St,Then normal 101 Route.
The other bus that are 96" with are Neoplan AN440's. I think a 40 Foot bus would have a problem turning onto the streets from State St.
I wounder if the 110 ever ran on State St when they have to close down Baltmore Pike?
Seems like the TA is getting nostalgic about old service patterns. Beighton trains ending at Times Square all this weekend. That was regular service on the Brighton Express until c.1954, when it was extended to 57th Street.
I wonder if they'll use the bells and buzzers?
Or charge 1957 fares?
Wouldn't that be a dream come true. ;-)
Yeah, but would you pay them with 1957 Dollars?
The Q is terminating at 42nd whenever the R runs through 63rd. Every weekend so far since July 22 (including July 22 itself), the Q has terminated at 42nd. Only a week ago was the public actually notified.
After getting off the Q54, I show up for work today at Metropolitan Avenue on the M line at around 8 am and noticed that there were no trains in the station, and the station was crowded. So I went into the dispatcher's office to sign on and find out what's wrong with the railroad. An M train was running 15 minutes late at Wyckoff Avenue for no apparent reason. The train finally arrives at Met, but not after losing an additional 5 minutes making the train 20 minutes late on arrival.
So there are a whole bunch of crews inside the office waiting for instructions (including myself), when the T/O walks in. This female T/O is wearing THICK glasses, and is holding a blind man's cane (yes, the one colored white with a red tip). She asks if this train is hers to go (it is), hops on it and leaves. The whole office is stunned! Needless to say, I was the next train to go so right away I knew that I was going to be right behind this "T/O" all the way down to 9th Avenue. Oh great! To make a long story short, she gets to 9th Avenue 18 minutes late and is ignoring all radio transmissions from the towers to take a skip (bypass some stops). I was ONLY 9 minutes late.
Later on, I talk to the dispatcher to see what's going on with this person. Coming northbound from Bay Parkway, the crew had a "door enabler" train. The T/O was not pressing the button so the C/R could not open up. The C/R was pleading over the PA system for her to operate the enabler (according to my C/R who was heading in to work on that train) and she kept on forgetting. They asked her to take a skip, so she did. ONE STOP.
Heading southbound, the dispatcher phoned up and asked the two line TSS's to ride with her. One rode from Myrtle to Broad. The first TSS has a conversation about the cane:
TSS: So, what's with the cane there?
T/O: Oh, I need that.
TSS: YOU NEED THAT?!?!?
The T/O again was ignoring requests over the radio to take skips and continued to destroy service. The second TSS gets on at 36th Street and forces her to take a skip.
Turns out that the T/O found the cane and was keeping it to use as a puncher. The TSS's also said that she was operating too cautiously and way too slow. They called her operation "horrible". The aftershocks went as high up as the ACTO's office. Now, Jay Street is going to be watching this T/O's operation VERY closely when she comes back to work tomorrow, and her job is now in jeopardy. Personally, this person should NOT be a T/O.
The T/O was one that came off the street and this was her 10th day out.
One funny anecdote from the dispatcher at Met:
"The passengers complained because I was playing Christmas music on Christmas Day over the PA. But someone enters a cab with thick glasses and a blind mans cane and nobody says a word."
Me? I was thinking the TA was going a little too far to be ADA compliant.
Heh. That settles it - inform Stillwell I'll be back with my handles ready to roll. :)
Make sure you bring your red tiped cane----lol
Peace,
ANDEE
Don't forget your ball peen hammer.:-)
Z-man , that's an incredible story! How could the T/A let someone
that inexperienced operate a train?
Chuck Greene
I've been asking that same question over and over again.
What the TA needs to do is make it tougher to gain your handles.
The LIRR is zero tolerance, the TA is extremely tolerant as far as training goes. It's time that the TA's training standards be raised quite a bit.
To my understanding, the TA was short of T/Os to being with, causing them to put up the "HELP WANTED" ads. Or was that just a lot of media fluff?
No, it was the Transit manipulating things to make it seem that there were no people capable of being promoted to TO. They created the shortage and this is the result.
I rode with someone fromoff the street the other day. He was very good, so not all of them are that bad. Some of the T/O that are not fro the street are just as bad as this one that you are talking about. So give these guy from off the street a brake, and let see how they do down the road. You might be suppized about them.
Robert
P.S. I know that some of you are going to be mad at me for deffending the T/O's from off the street, but I don't care.
Robert
I never meant to say that bad TOs were the result of Transit manipulating promotional tests: I meant that off-the stret TOs were the result. I personally don't care how you got there, just as long as you are actually capable of doing the job.
My feelings have always been that people should have some time in train service before actually "running"...but then as bus drivers and tower operators could previously have taken the test and become Train operators...I could stretch the tower positions to fit but busses are a different world. Yet it worked, even if equal to taking a semi-driver and making him an engineer.
There was a big song and dance in my Burlington Northern days when a section [track] foreman was put into Engineer training when many brakemen/conductors were after this highly competitive promotion.I didn't like it either as it put me another number farther away. I knew as soon as I saw the guy why he was taken...he was Mexican-American. [Had it been a few years later you can be sure a female clerk would have been taken too]. But the guy was as good an engineer as anybody else and we turned out to be friends.
There are plenty of T/O's who are more than willing to work one of their days off either every week or every other week. I am willing.
Hating to point out the obvious, but how does one become experienced without doing this for a while? While I agree that this one should be taken off the road, all of us were at one time inexperienced.
ADA compliance??? out of hand indeed. I noticed it was a "she"...has affirmative action gone this far? Somebody on the edge of blindness running trains with hundreds, or over a thousand people aboard?
First off, she should have been removed from any train operating duties the minute she entered Metropolitan Ave 20 minutes late. Considering her ignoring of direct instructions to bypass stops, she should be sent back to training school.
If there are no improvements in a reasonable time period, she should be given other duties.
I don't think they should be watching for any improvements, they should just get rid of her right away. If she was on the job for ten days, shouldn't she be getting the hang of it by now? She's a danger to the passengers and they shouldn't be allowing her to drive the train!!!!
I wonder if the DMV is allowing her to drive a car? My guess is they wouldn't let anyone in her condition have a driver's license, so why would the TA allow her to drive a train?!?!
>>I wonder if the DMV is allowing her to drive a car? My guess is they wouldn't let anyone in her condition have a driver's license, so why would the TA allow her to drive a train?!?! <<
We have drivers on the road like that, I call them CREEPS because they go so slow and slow for green lights and stop at yellow ones. Usually they are old ladies and are a cause for many missed traffic lights. And they are plentiful up here in the Northland.
This is a joke, right? Pretty scary.
I could probably walk off the street and do a better job of running the train.
The person who cleared her to operate should have their head examined.
Oh and I forgot one thing. According to the misfit Train Operator, the Yard Dispatcher at Coney Island Yard forbid her from bringing a train into, or taking a train out of CI Yard. I have no idea if this is a new policy, or if this T/O absolutely scared the pants off of the Y/D.
New policy in the B Division - probies are not allowed to operate in the yards. Of course, someone's ideas of probies are alittle off: after almost two years in title, road qualified in both divisions, I have NEVER operated a train within the confines of Coney Island Yard (or Pitkin, 174 St, ENY and Fresh Ponds - which I've never even set foot in). The only time I've operated in 207 was with a #1 train being washed.
Well, I wouldn't say that was policy in the entire B division. Probies are not allowed to work in East New York and Coney Island yards by order of the superintendents in those areas. Probies are not allowed to work in other yards when being teamed with another probie or by themselves. Yard dispatchers are given discretion when having a probie work with someone who hasn't worked in the yard for a while. The yard dispatcher will deem if the probationary feels comfortable working in the yard and if they have worked the yard before. If the Y/D has any doubts, he or she will summon a TSS to critique the T/O. Best situation is to team the probie with a veteran. Probationary T/O's are allowed to operate in yards on a put-in or lay-up trains. Jamaica yard also has a policy where if a T/O working in the yard hasn't been in the yard for more than 30 days, they must be critiqued by a TSS whether the T/O is probationary or not.
New is relative I think. My TSS said this has been in effect about a year mostly due to split switches. While road and yard posting there were at least 3 incidents that I heard of (not the off the street people).
This policy is haphazardly enforced, some T/O's could do layups at CI yard others had to leave their trains on the ladder. ENY and CI enforce it the most, ENY almost always does. One night they had so many probies on a shift they had to call for board help.
I know the T/O in this story and she does have a bad rep operating. That cane thing is something current T/O's recommended to us for using on punchs instead of a shoe paddle (I use a flashlight if I need to) and that helps if you are short. The blind cane was just a poor choice of tools.
I called up the crew office to get out of working at 207yard on Monday. I told them that I rather work the road then sit around the yard doing nothing. I can't wait untill 10/9/01, this is the first day the I am off probation, and I get a yard job and tell them that I don't remenber the moves in the yards, and I want a TSS to ride me all day.
Robert
Are you kidding, you don't like the yard? Catch up on all your sleep, reading, gossiping and complaining. If you work Jamaica yard you can BBQ untill you weigh 500 lbs.
Now my peeve is sitting the board for 6 hours then picking up a job.
BTW most of the incidents in the yards happen to the veterans out there who get sloppy and make a lot of short cuts, not the street guys who are too nervous and follow the "book" to the letter.
That story takes the cake, the candles, and the box it came in.
Blind? I would have to say that there are some things you just do not do. Now how does she operate the train if there are trackworkers making repairs on the ROW? What about a signal at danger? How about a broken rail? Fire on the tracks? A distraught person on the tracks? Maybe she really wants a job flying a 747 at night.
Would the folks who hired her give a job in an obstetrical ward to a known peeping tom? Maybe they would give Jesse James a job as a bank guard. What next?
>>ROW? What about a signal at danger? How about a broken rail? Fire on the tracks? A distraught person on the tracks? Maybe she really wants a job flying a 747 at night. <<
Well, 747's do have bright instrument panels and autopilot, besides as long as she has a co-pilot with decent vision, they'd have a 50-50 chance of making it to the ground in one piece.
If I'm not mistaken; I believe that the Americans with Disabilities Act(ADA)states that a blind person may qualify as a train operator as long as he/she has a "seeing eye" dog in the cab at all times.
We've got: Hot Lunch!
Only if the seeing eye dog has its own set of handles and is qualified on the route in question.
The whole idea is scary. At BSM we refused to allow a deaf man to qualify, let alone run with an Instructor next to him. He wound up at the museum 32 miles down the road, where he was qualified and eventually caused a head-on collision.
I don't think she was really blind. As Z-man said, "Turns out that the T/O found the cane and was keeping it to use as a puncher."
- Lyle Goldman
This is just crazy. I was in the first class and from what I've have seen so far the TA has been abit more laid back with the rest of the classes after us. We were the class that had to make it or break it. So that we made it and the media isn't watching the other classes they can train them and see how they do once they get out. We had a guy in our class that sounds just like that ladies, He had thick glasses and he was always late so when they saw this in Road Posting that he just didn't have it they took him out of service. I bet my years salary that if this lady was in the first class she would not have made it
Some of your class have had their own problems, too.
I can see ZMan179 complaining about us, but you are the same as us. In fact because of problems with your class we got better instruction in yard posting not that it was that great anyway. Two of your class almost got thrown out of fire school, they were buffs which is another story.
Sorry you must be mistaken us from the 2nd class. Yes a few of the TO from the 1st class are having abit of a problem but to get toss from Fire school. Not, at least no one from the group I was in. I can't say for sure about the other groups when we went to fire school it wasn't a complete class it was broken down into groups
>>>>>>>>>Two of your class almost got thrown out of fire school, they were buffs which is another story.
The fact that they ALMOST got thrown out of fire school is grounds IMO for termination. I mean, you have to be dumb as dirt to fail that.
They just kept asking question after question. One of them resides here. We got to laugh and we got out at 1:15 which is even early by school car standards.
The guy trying to sell the disability insurance was turning colors.
Very few of us bought and I think he blamed it on the constant questions. "If you have 3 disability policies but only two of them cover preexisitng conditions and you fall ill within the one year period...".
Their class said he had calmed down but was showing off because we were there.
I like my weird knowledge too like 42st lower but am more interested in 'slick joey' stuff. I really did not care about the age of the telephone handsets in the tunnel or the % missing receivers or extinguishers.
Instead of a psych test they needed a social IQ test.
i think i know who your talking about was this a guy a older man? did he look like shaggy from scooby doo?
Both looked older but one of them reminded me of General Sherman with grey hair.
was that the thinner man or the man that was always closing his eyes? one of them didn't make it pass road posting
Not a clue, I was trying real hard not to pick up a shoe paddle and play whack-a-buff.
I resent that implication that the first class is the best. I agree that the T/O in question is not fit for duty, but not all of us street T/O's are that bad. In fact I've been hearing from a lot of the veterans that we're pretty good.
I'm not sure what class I'm in, I started 5/29/01. I can tell you we have been worked pretty hard. We've had to study hard and we're held to a pretty high standard.
So if you think you're so good because you were in the first class, I'd be willing to go toe to toe with you in a competition when I get out of school car to show you that this t/o is as good if not better than you are. And I have 3 TSS's that have worked with me that will back me up on this, including one who posts here regularly.
you are in the third or fourth class.
Listen dude all I'm saying is that alot more T/O's from the fellowing class aren't making it. I know that 10 dropout and 5 failed the signal test which is really easy. But it all goes back to the 1st test given. What was your score if you don't mind me asking? Because I don't believe it was 100 like mine. Not that I'm saying I'm better than u. But I am brighter lol Kidding. Listen best of luck on everything. And just remember this what we learn in school car is just half of what your going to need to know.
No, it was only a 97 so I guess that makes me legally retarded. But come this time next year I expect to still be running trains down the road. Best of luck to you and remember you're still "from the street" (no matter what score you brag about) as far as everyone in the TA is concerned. So us street guys should band together not knock each other down. There are enough veterans and TA brass looking to do that.
Geez Bruiser, I always figured you were kind of "special."
...are you the Eggman?
Yes, 10 dropped out but 5 of them never started on day one. One was pregnant and was not eligible for FMLA and had sked about it from day one but the UNION di not give her an answer for 2 months. One quit the first week and was never that keen on it, another went back to former title (YES they did allow that, even though they did not have to), another was on another transit list and became a radio maintainer. They let another one drop back a class because he was almost pension vested at his old job. So stop making it into something it isn't.
As for the TWO or THREE (not five) signal test failures the prevoius promotion had three and they could get one wrong. Maybe you don't know this but some of the TSS's give everyone the answers to the tests and what do you expect when they then get an exam where they don't get it up front.
We all got through posting and one is fired or being retrained. They did one of those slick moves and screwed up. The conductor dezoned coming in to the terminal and the T/O screwed up.
I remember a story out of school car I still hear to this day in which a practical joker with the black sunglasses and the blind man's cane was escorted to his cab by his conductor while bumping into poles and led into position in front of stunned passengers on his Q train before departing at Brighton Beach. Even the hearing officer laughed before handing out ten days.
I heard about that in Conductor school car. Its a very funny story.
How about T/O takes a wrong line up at 71st and the C/R gets on the PA and says 'there are significant delays ahead, instead of having you sit in the tunnel we are giving you a short your of the Jamaica train yards'.
Almost like a skit on "The Man Show" where the two stars were dressed as pilots at an airport and proceeded to get sloshed. Pretty funny seeing the reactions of passengers in the terminal. (Assuming you believe it wasn't staged.)
HEY! I'm considered legally blind! I have a cane I sometimes use at night. I'll bring it to Jay Steet and apply for the T/O job! LMFAO!
I think that should be "WREAKS havoc" - "reeks" means that she smells bad, which is usually applicable to some of the passengers.
That's what I thought, but my wife thought that I should use reeks. Some of the meanings for "reeks" are to smoke, steam or fume. Well she certainly didn't smoke up the rails with her speed.
Conan the grammarian has ruled ... "wreaks havoc" is the correct phrasing for anyone who it matters to ... I did kinda like "reeks" though ...
I got news for you z-man. The T/O in question is not fit for duty, period. It doesn't matter if she's from the street or not. No one was born a T/O in the system. It seems some of us forgot our humble beginnings!
Second, your beef is with the TA not with us open-competitive folks. We just took an exam for a civil service job that pays really well, with no knowledge of any f**kery by the TA. So if you want to complain about us "street" guys and gals why don't you bang it in to the TA brass if you have the balls to do it.
Third, I've heard that some of the veterans think we're pretty good because we are trying to the best we can because unlike a lot of "inside" people we care about the job we're doing it's not just a promotion and we want to keep it. We're here because we want to be here and we have no safety cushion of going back to our former title. And speaking for myself I take pride in my job and do my best, sorry for not being perfect.
I don't want to argue with you, but I'm getting tired of this bulls**t about "street" T/O's.
I wish you and your class continued success, Bruiser.
Mayor hopes tax will break London's traffic gridlock
I think that charging a tax to drive into central areas is an excellent idea. It's about time that motorists start paying for the pollution and congestion that they bring into the city. And the fact that all the money goes into transit system improvements will provide motorists an even better reason to leave the car at home. If only this type of forward thinking was practiced by mayors of all cities, the smog and global warming problem being experienced today could be reduced significantly.
I have always thought that Manhattan had it fairly easy when it comes to restricting traffic into downtown. There are after all only so many bridges onto the island.
Imagine:
$20.00 toll cars ($50.00 trucks) to enter between 0500 and 1100 hours
$10.00 toll cars ($30.00 trucks) to enter between 1100 and 1900 hours
no fees between 1900 and 0500
(Tolls are round trip, collected inbound only)
The bridges to brrokly and queens reserved to Buses and Taxis between 0500 and 1100 and again between 1600 and 1900.
You need more capacity into the city? I'll bet you you could close the Brookly Bridge to cars and trucks and put LRV's on it within a year with nice service to many areas of brooklyn, ande perhaps for the Willie B.
Elias
Not all of Manhattan is Midtown. Why should drivers to the residential areas of Manhattan be penalized over drivers to the residential areas of other boroughs?
"Not all of Manhattan is Midtown. Why should drivers to the residential areas of Manhattan be penalized over drivers to the residential areas of other boroughs? "
Actually I would not have intended that they would be that tightly excluded. Such details would have to be worked out by anyone wanting to look more seriously at such an option. Clearly, those who register their cars at their Manhattan residence might well have their pass embeded in their EZPass or whatever. Perhaps they would emulate Tokyo: to register the car in the city, you must prove ownership (lease or whatever) of an off-street parking place.
Clearly, I am aming at those who as commute with automobiles, and given the Manhattan limits imposed by its geography, the desires for cleaner and more people friendly spaces and access, the heavy restriction to Automobile traffic seems to be a viable option.
I'd love to explore this topic with anyone who is interested in discussing these points.
Elias
I'm not thrilled with the idea of waiving or reducing fees for residents, either. The issue is not where people live; it's to what extent they and their cars get in everyone else's way. IMO, the best approach is not to penalize but to charge people (automatically, with the help of E-ZPass) for the costs they're responsible for. Drive in midtown Manhattan all you want, but it won't be cheap.
As for off-street parking, there are many more cars parked overnight in Manhattan's residential areas than there are off-street places to put them. There's nothing wrong with on-street parking, although, really, the people who park on the street should pay for the real estate they consume.
It's a good idea - for those with loads of money . Should free up the roads nicely. I do hope the extra money is spent on better transport.
Simon
Swindon UK
Are they planning to set up a toll booth outside No. 10?
I think the government are hopefull that Ken Livingstones proposals will free up London for ministerial cars and civil servants.
Like all taxes which disregard the ability to pay, it will hit those who can least afford it.
I think people will just use their cars anyway, myself included when my car is necessary for my job, but the money, if spent wisely, should be a big help.
Simon
Swindon UK
The Mayor of London has decided that since it is too difficult to collect a toll on all persons entering the city, he will instead put tacks on all the roads going to Central London. Any car trying to enter the city will experience severe tyre damage and will have to call an overpriced flatbed tow truck.
LIRR is offering for sale 724 M-1. Equipment will be sold "AS IS" and "WHERE LOCATED BASIS".
NYCT is looking to buy 12 crance cars.
NYCT is looking to rebuild one diesel-electric locomotive.
Source: Metro Magazine Aug 2001 issue
I'm no Dave Pirmann, but thanks to some help from New York University's Taub Urban Research Center, you can now find out the facts about tax levels and spending priorities around the state, and around the country, on the internet. The address is:
http://urban.nyu.edu/research/littlefield/index.html
Sorry, but my old copy of Netscape won't turn it into a link.
Well worth looking into, I'd say. Transit and infrastructure, along with debt, are discussed in section 6.
Larry, that's the understatement of the year! This has to be one of the best Internet resources I've ever seen, bar none.
(Larry, that's the understatement of the year! This has to be one of the best Internet resources I've ever seen, bar none.)
Didn't I send you a prior thing I wrote up a few years ago? I know much more than that now -- thanks to the internet and increasing computer horsepower.
The Census Bureau put up much more detail, not only on expenditures by type but also on revenues and what they are for. So I was able to tease out local transportation expenditures net of federal and state aid, fares and tolls, and follow the intergovernmental aid and mandates for welfare and Medicaid from one level of government to another to figure out who got stuck with the bill.
Paul Matus was right -- it is no bowl of cherries in Suffolk County, although I think the data shows NYC is screwed the most. Or perhaps poor upstate counties are.
In addition to the obvious outrages, the data raises some tough questions. NYC's police spending is high -- a hard burden on the city's taxpayers -- because the size of the police force is so large relative to population. But wages are low -- the cops do deserve a raise. Do you cut the size of the force? Spend even more money and cut the schools? Fight against wage increases? Not so easy.
Spread the word. It went up today (my 40th Birthday, actually). I created the whole thing in six weeks. It took them 3 1/2 months to put it on the internet, but at least it's there.
Hey, happy birthday!
I've sent your draft paper to more than a few people. But this is more polished, and the graphics show up (I was never able to see them in the Word Perfect document).
The choices here are certainly difficult. While I tend to think that the City should not aim for parity in Police Dept. pay -- it's not a crisis yet, and the money is desperately needed for things like teacher salaries -- I don't pretend to know what the ideal compromises are. But I do know that if I were regional king I'd try to bring those bar graphs into line with other localities -- not just with the country as a whole, but with prosperous regions like Atlanta. And I would do that even if it meant a reduction in services to the poor. That's not because I begrudge the poor the extra money -- far from it -- but because I think jobs do far more to alleviate poverty than government programs do. And I confess to being troubled too that we pay white commuters high wages to do jobs that could go to City residents who would find them admirable . . .
Who are the "we" in "we pay", and could you explain what you meant in writing that "...And I confess to being troubled too that we pay white commuters high wages to do jobs that could go to City residents who would find them admirable . . ."
(But I do know that if I were regional king I'd try to bring those bar graphs into line with other localities -- not just with the country
as a whole, but with prosperous regions like Atlanta.)
Those areas get a much better deal from the Federal Government than we do (see the Medicaid Match graph in chapter I).
(And I would do that even if it meant a reduction in services to the poor.)
At this point, very little money is going to the poor. It is going to Medicaid, which for the most part is no longer a program for the poor. The actual poor aren't getting much in NYC. Not even an education for their kids. It's very upsetting.
Larry, I'm not out to make work for you, but can't you hand code in the message window: Interesting Tax Page, which produces Interesting Tax Page.
Just got off the line with Salaam and since I misplaced his phone number I kind of felt like a moron, but I got some real good news. He will be shooting the Sea Beach when he does his railfan trip this October. Actually it was the #1 and #9 that he was going to concentrate on, which should make South Ferry elated, but decided also to shoot the N train as well. It occurred to me that except for Salaam I not sure of how many of us reside in California. If you do, let me know on this line. I'd love to know how many of us reside in the Golden State.
yea he gave me a buzz we talked about the pasadena blue line construction subways the orange empire museum & my fall trip to nyc to shoot the N train & many others !! there is a life outside of nyc !!
I posted on the Straphanger Site I wanna see what people think here so
What would you do if you were in the first car of a train (lets say a D train going into rockerfeller center) and you heard that scary emergency brake sound and when you looked out the small litte window you quickly realized that your train was going hit a B train sitting in the station.
Would you panic?
Would you pray?
Would you run towards the end of the car?
Would you tell everyone to kiss their butts goodbye?
Would you scream at the people to head towards the back for the car?
Or would you stand there and accept that fate?
Now if I was there my face would grow pale, and then I would run towards the back of the car screaming that we're going to hit another train and to hang on for dear life.
I'd open the motorman cab dorr, slap the motorman and yell at him for not seeing the train in front of him. Well, actually, like a lotta people, act stupid and panic!
CWalNYC
In all seriousness -
I would just shrug my shoulders, say "Oh well, shit happens"
and let it happen.
If I'm still alive after impact, then I'll find a way out.
No, I'm not bragging or trying to appear macho.
The simple fact is if I was in a situation like that, there would be absolutely nothing I could do to stop it from happening, so why go nuts?
I suggest that you move because the T/O is going to come flying out of that cab like a bat out of hell.
Heh. I was going to say something along those lines since the first issue was a railfan at the window - but I decided not to knowing the "bail from the cab" thing we all got taught.
If you're going to have any chance, the first thing you do is kiss the floor, feet to the storm door and hope it holds when the anticlimbers crunch ... and what I would have said was, get out of the way so you don't trip the MM. :)
I WOULD SCREAM LIKE A STRAIGHT BITCH AND RUN FOR THE END OF THE CAR!
Regards,
Trevor Logan
www.transitalk.com
I think this is the right answer, with or without the screaming, not hitting the deck and just hoping.
When a NICTD (nee South Shore) commuter train ran into a steel truck some years back, people in the front of the first car, including the motorman (engineer?), ran like hell as far back as they could before collision. Considering the scale of damage done by a steel roll to the car -- it was ripped wide open and the front half of the car was utterly mangled -- the three deaths that occurred were a lot less than one would expect. Of course, it was real early in the morning and there were few passengers aboard so people in the front COULD run back. Not much chance of that on a crowded rush-hour train.
First of all wouldn't the emergency brake stop the train in time, and if it doesn't wouldn't the train have been automatically stopped by a trip arm before. The odds of your situation happening are quite slim, of course we all understand the G/R accident on Queens Blvd a few years ago and the great Williamsburg Bridge J/M accident.
ALL OF THE ABOVE AS WELL AS HIT THE DECK!!!
I would pry the side doors open and run to the next subway station and alert a TA employee.
See the post from "D4000 Cruiser" for my answer.
Using my super-depth-perception powers and knowledge of the braking capabilities of the equipment I'm riding on, I would run to the exact spot in the car where I would suffer an obvious but not permanently disabling injury.
Than I would have my lawyer sue the MTA for $1,000,000,001.50.
Then I would have my lawyer sue the MTA for $1,000,000,001.50.
$1.50?
I shouldn't get my fare back?
( Thanks, Peter, I needed a straight man ) ;-)
This wouldn't apply on the D. But if the car had a real railfan window, I'd pull out my camera and take a quick picture or two.
At the precise moment of impact, I would jup up in the air, while all of the car crashes around me, and then land unharmed after the wreck.
(or else something else would happen)
Elias
Hit the deck and hope it's a very bad dream.
I know, I know, enough about the R142s. But I was amazed to see how many of them were running..and in some weird combinations, too!
6611-6615 together with 6476-6480...yes, that's right, 6476-6480!
I've seen that somewhere...maybe IN THE YARD!
Yeah, there were, count them, like 12 of them! 12 R142 trainsets! BTW, Correct me if I'm wrong, I think I saw #6616-6625. Can I get that confirmed via e-mail?
I think there were like 20 R142As on the 6 line.
Saw 7446-7455 on the 6.
CWalNYC
Also 7466-70 is at 239 YD I seen it this morning.
After the R142's where taken off the road half of the day last Fiday and all day Saturday they are coming back strong. The problem it had is now fixed.
What was the problem? Don't tell me...did they have BRAKE PROBLEMS like the Bombardier R142s or was it a different problem?
CWalNYC
carlwal@hotmail.com
loose screw in the body carriage on the bombardiers. kawasaki has every other defect coming in and out. their newest one is doors unlatching to open. one door would open and the other one would get jammed. recently happened with the bombardiers but it wasn't vast.
the reason the R-142's on the 2 are all mixed up is because one half of the in order sets had defects. for example earlier in the week, on set 6315-20, there traction motor went bad. they took it off to fix it and split up the sets with other sets. also weeks before, 6307, the fan in the a/c was running loud with comotion. it was taken off and fixed. the same thing happened with 6588 but it wasn't as bad. that was fixed also.
true
I believe it is 13 R142s and 21 R142As in service.
it is and more coming
It's official. According to my local newspaper, the big open lot at Jay and York is proposed for a major luxury redevelopment. It will probably fill up with lawyers with a high sense of entitlement.
Forget about tunneling under the street next to it to build a Rutgers-DeKalb connection once it's up, regardless of how well the fix takes on the Manhattan Bridge. Would a few thousand new residents of Fulton Ferry count for more than the 1.5 million who rely on the bridge for subway service? Of course! This is New York, where the current interests of a few on the inside always trump the future interests of the vast majority.
Once they're in, they'll start agitating to get the trains off the bridge, moralizing about the "environment." Had they BUILT the connection, you probably could have closed the bridge at night and still had decent service through two tunnels. But NOOOOOOO.
I'll consider showing up to testify against it if family conditions permit, but the whole thing was designed to go through before Giuliani/Vallone leave office, and a lot of contributions were made. It's probably a done deal.
But the bridge is going to last forever. Why do we need a tunnel?
Unbelievable.
The Brooklyn Bridge can no longer allow trucks to use it, because of weight problems that were mentioned in the news media. Let something happen to the Manhattan Bridge, and then the stuff will hit the fan.
The Brooklyn Bridge can no longer allow trucks to use it
That's another whole can of worms I've never heard explained. The Bridge used to handle the considerable axle loadings of elevated trains, now they argue that a large SUV might break it.
The Brooklyn Bridge is a parkway.
I think we should have at least one parkway crossing of the East River.
SUVs should be banned from parkways.
Not the issue.
...SUVs should be banned from Parkways...
That would certainly send the SUV's increasing popularity trend to a screeching halt.
Hey...
I plan I getting a SUV..one of those medium sized ones.
take it to 59th st bridge then go downtown...
forget the manhattan, brooklyn or willy b.. damn rust buckets.
I concur that SUV's should be banned from parkways. Their popularity is disturbing. They have very poor fuel economy, create more dangerous driving conditions for everyone else, and drive up the cost of fuel. With the high gas prices these days you'd think SUV's would be on the decline, but it's totally the opposite.
Historians often refer to the 80s as the "me" decade but I think things have gotten much worse now.
Also the hands free law is in effect but if I had a dollar for everytime I saw a woman driving her SUV while on the cellphone (why do women like things so big, their cars, their men??) I'd be able to buy a monthly Metrocard.
I wonder are SUV's so popular in other countries? If not then why? Lemme guess this has something to do with Americans loving their BIG FANCY cars?
I'd be willing to bet that the 00's (pronounced "uh-ohs") will go down as the "screw you" decade. And by the end of the decade, the havily armed recreational vehicle will be king. Sorry, just needed to be said. If you think it's bad around the city and its nearby breeding colonies, you ought to see the ratio of those things to road skates up here near Smallbany ...
SUV's are cool except when you are in a car, at night and there is one behind you. HEADLIGHTS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Pain.
Personally I think an SUV is a waste as it offers not more in capacity than most sedans. Status symbols sadly are a way of life.
I do feel light trucks are to a lot of people a vehicle of choice. I drive a van because I need hauling capacity at times so it offers me a truck and sort-of family car together. It isn't fancy. If you restrict "trucks" even if some people don't refer to a van as a truck you run everything from mini-pickups to cowboy Cadillacs [big, chrome laden pickups], vans which in some cases are made into mini-busses, minivans, SUV's off roads that people with the same purpose as those driving sedans use them for. The term truck can be well-stretched.
"Americans love big fancy cars"...anyone remember those cute Falcons, Valiants, Chevy II etc back in the early 60's? Nice little comfortable cars,easy on gas, easy to park...after about 4 years they started growing and then later production stopped. They didn't go over well, Then later people went for small imports for fuel economy and said American firms wouldn't build small cars...they did but he majority didn't accept them.
Look at homes: what had been the American dream is now a starter home or a rental property in some areas. Now those who can afford want 3000 square feet before they even have kids.Three car garage [normally used to store more STUFF]; land, room for horses...gimme a break.
>>>Also the hands free law is in effect ...<<<
The hands free law is not effective until November.
Peace,
ANDEE
That explains why I saw a LI Bus driver on his cell phone today.
The Bridge used to handle the considerable axle loadings of elevated trains, now they argue that a large SUV might break it.
The Brooklyn Bridge was substantially redesigned in the early 1950's. The resulting configuration can take less live load than the original. The question is not whether a single large SUV might break the bridge; the question is whether a bridge covered bumper to bumper with SUV's would be overloaded. The answer to that question is yes. An experiment of that type was perfomed in 1888; the bridge still has the scars.
1888? or you mean 1988?
No, I mean 1888. Prior to that trolley cars were banned because of weight restrictions. Trolley cars were allowed starting that year with a distance restriction between them. Within a few months there was some kind of problem and the bridge became jammed with trolley cars.
You will notice that the bridge roadway dips 5 feet at each of the towers. It was not always thus.
Umm... what they used in 1888 was considerably heavier than SUVs.
Umm... what they used in 1888 was considerably heavier than SUVs.
They used only a single lane of trolleys in 1888. The live load is 1700 lb/ft. Assume an SUV is 5000 lbs and 15 feet long. Six full lanes would be 2000 lb/ft.
Uh, there's also this clearance problem, not so much for SUV's, but for commercial trucks.
Sorry, I need to be filled in on details; did the MTA specify that the lot was necessary for construction of that project?
I don't think the point of Larry's message was that the lot would be needed to facilitate construction of a DeKalb/Rutgers connection. If I read Larry's message correctly, the point was that the lot is going to be filled by a luxury apartment building that will be occupied by people with the money/power/influence to prevent any future subway construction from happening on that block, thereby killing the whole project.
David
(I don't think the point of Larry's message was that the lot would be needed to facilitate construction of a DeKalb/Rutgers connection. If I read Larry's message correctly, the point was that the lot is going to be filled by a luxury apartment building that will be occupied by people with the money/power/influence to prevent any future subway construction from happening on that block, thereby killing the whole project.)
That was the main point. There is nothing there now. 15 years from now the area will be filled with affluent, influential yuppies -- and not just in this building. To build the connection, you'd have to wreck their quality of life. They wouldn't allow it.
I also think that lot would have been a great place to stage the construction.
I don't know how you can attribute future intentions to a group of as- yet unknown people who have yet to move in to an as-yet unbuilt building.
(I don't know how you can attribute future intentions to a group of as- yet unknown people who have yet to move in to an as-yet unbuilt building.)
No one would want such a construction project at their door. The politicians should have thought ahead and built the connection BEFORE the area redeveloped. And, I guarantee you, people WERE informed.
The area being mentioned is already being called trendy in the media and is referred to as DUMBO - for Down Under the Manhattan Bridge.
A few years ago, you could not get some characters to even look at the area, now the money to burn crowd is falling over their feet trying to get a loft there. Go figure.
Since all the yuppies can't live in Manhattan they have to live near it. This explains why parts of Williamsburg (Bedford ave on the L), DUMBO, and Long Island City are starting to become popular with the trendies. Now I know it won't be too long will we see Starbucks in those places. They even opened up one in Flushing (no suprise there as Flushing is the trendy asiatown).
And if you haven't figured it out I dispise Starbucks. No I don't drink Coffee but that's stuff is so overpriced. But mainly it's what Starbucks stands for that makes me steam. That is
one commercial development I'll oppose. No Starbucks in My Back Yard (NOSIMBY).
UUM...then what's your explanation for Starbucks on Fordham Road in the Bronx, no yuppies here!
Peace,
ANDEE
(But mainly it's what Starbucks stands for that makes me steam. That is one commercial development I'll oppose. No Starbucks in My Back Yard (NOSIMBY).)
It's amazing how so many people want to stop new businesses from opening in their neighborhood, because they seem them as markers of "those people" the way wolves mark their territory by pissing on the ground. I warps zoning regulations no end. Underneath, that's what the battle over supermarkets are about -- white trash suburban families shop in them, not the chic urbanites we want in our town! Others object to yuppies and Starbucks, others to immigrants and their bodegas.
To me, those who want to keep consumerist "yuppies" out of the neighborhood sound no different than those who want to keep bars and clubs frequented by trendy "chic urbanites" out of the neighborhood, and those who want to keep Blacks out of the neighborhood for that reason. If you want to live in a place where everyone is and lives like you, why not move to some suburb somewhere for your kind of people? Forget Brooklyn. Actually, these days forget most of the NY Metro area.
Like the people in Sunset Park & Park Slope that were opposed to an Ikea of all things, on the grounds that it would generate more traffic. Like 3rd Avenue and 4th Avenue are country roads. The anti-supermarket people always mystify me. Its like saying "I'm against large clean stores stocked with a selection of products at discounted prices". And yet these whiners often win out because they claim that supermarkets will 'hurt' local businesses. That's called competition and it's how the real world works. You think it's bad now? Wait till a mayor Ferrer/Green/Hevesi is in charge. No one will want to build anything here any more.
(You think it's bad now? Wait till a mayor Ferrer/Green/Hevesi is in charge. No one will want to build anything here any more.)
No will be able to build anything on the west side of Manhattan, perhaps, but they'll be able to do anything they want in Staten Island. It's the opposite way now.
"...No will be able to build anything on the west side of Manhattan, perhaps, but they'll be able to do anything they want in Staten Island. It's the opposite way now..."
But's that's the way it is now! We are trying to get the whole island down-zoned, but I think it's too late for that. The damage has been done. Large one-family homes are being torn down and replaced with semi-attached one and two family homes.
Which is perfectly good. Zoning is just a tool used by NIMBYs who fear encroaching development. It was created after the construction of the Equitable Building, deemed too large.
Maybe one day those houses will be replaced with row houses, and eventually with apartment buildings.
The march of development moves on.
Yeah we have an anti-big store attutude on the north shore. The result is overcrowded, out of stock supermarkets. There's not enough drug stores either. But ultra high priced chains is just fine. Great Neck has two Starbucks but only one supermarket, and it's not 24 hours.
Bleah Starbucks in Flushing..PUKE.
They tore down my Favorite Gyro place. To put that in.
Flushing is now a nutritional wasteland. Because I'm sick of Chinese food, been eating it all my life.
Now the only good decent Gyro place is Turkish and in Manhattan
on MacDougal St.
Larry, Larry, Larry. Just what lot are you talking about? The only Jay/York intersection I know of Is waaay under the bridge itself. Any use of that wouldn't be extremely helpful, and they could easily work around this minor setback. I don't know if[there were]/what [the] original infrastructure plans for the connection were, but the plans could be worked around this...
I'll go look at the interstection (i live maybe 1.5 miles from there anyways), but Last time I checked (umm, today!) that intersection was under the bridge.
(I'll go look at the interstection (i live maybe 1.5 miles from there anyways), but Last time I checked (umm, today!) that intersection was under the bridge. )
Of course it's under the bridge. The tracks would have to branch off north of DeKalb, go past that lot (and all the other gentrifying lots) underground, then hook up somewhere after York Street Station. You'd have to tear up the area to put it in.
It might be possible to change the plans and hook in before York Street, but that would require both an extra stop and tighter turns, thus slowing down trains.
There's been excavation at the site for the new proposed building at Jay/York for at least a year now. I frequent that area and always figured that the 'F' is actually to the left of the site. Wouldn't any configuration of the Rutgers-Dekalb connection have to be south of York and Jay and much closer to Dekalb? Anything done would seem to require some complex (though not impossible) threading through the maze of subway tunnels and building substructures in the area. Would it be possible to build an AC/FG to WMNRQQ connection south of Dekalb to the A/C/G/F south of Hoyt? Seems to be more ROW to work with there?
>>It might be possible to change the plans and hook in before York Street, but that would require both an extra stop and tighter turns, thus slowing down trains.<<
Ok, I understand the extra stop, but tighter turns? Let's say we build the connection so that it branches off around myrtle. It could then make a gentle turn until it reaches Flushing* and then could turn under the BQE connection to the Manh. br. After that, there's this basketball court park (It's there, I play there every sunday) that It could run under. After that, you're practically with the F train.
Again, I don't know what previous infrastructure plans were, but this new development does not stop the linking at all.
*- After Gold st, Flushing goes by a different name, which I forgot.
*- After Gold st, Flushing goes by a different name, which I forgot.
Nassau Street.
I guess this is an oppurtunity to ask:
Why doesn't Flushing Avenue actually go to Flushing?
The Q58 bus (the Flushing-Ridgewood Trolley), uses a small bit of Flushing Avenue where it connects to Grand Avenue, which explains a little, but not much.
>> Why doesn't Flushing Avenue actually go to Flushing? <<
And while we're asking... why doesn't Coney Island Avenue go to Coney Island? (If one takes CI Ave to its southern terminus, one finds oneself deposited in Brighton Beach...)
The wonders of the city...
Rednoise
(NewQirQ)
But Brighton Beach is part of Coney Island, the former Island, it makes sense.
Flushing Avenue would have ended in the Town of Newtown before 1898.
(Ok, I understand the extra stop, but tighter turns? Let's say we build the connection so that it branches off around myrtle.)
That depends on where the existing Gold Street interlocking plant ends. There may not be room for another switch off until later. I'm just letting you know where the MTA planned to go.
The collision between two trains on Chicago's Northwestern L this morning is not surprising. Too many motormen on that system are cowboys. Last summer, while riding the Douglas L in a so called slow zone (maximum allowable speed 15 mph) the motorman gunned it. The L structure sagged and the forward car tipped violently to the right. I remember looking down into alleys from the side windows! How we avoided going off the tracks I'll never know. Had this occurred moments later when we hit the curve near Paulina Street, I'm sure we would have.
Eric D. Smith
Well then because of that accident and this then timers will come to Chicago and like New York City, it will either be obey the speed limit or get fired. The Chicago Transit System will get alot of bad rap about this. So timers will be phased in more then likely.
I heard about those motormem.Im surprised the crash wasn't worser than it is.
This crash was only at 6 mph. The thing they haven't mentioned is whether or not the train was going that slow the whole time leading up to it, but couldn't slow down at all in time; or whether the train was going 25 and managed to slow down to 6 mph before the actual crash. Big difference
I've riden the CTA lots of times during my business trips to Chicago, and you are wrong.
This T/O is just a bad apple. Every system has a few of them.
Read lower down for the post about the blind M train T/O yesterday.
Wonder if it was the same guy who ran a l5 MPH slow zone on a Blue Line train I was on near California or Western on the former Logan Square L. Never slowed at all...ran thru it about 45 MPH.
Hmmm, it that was possible maybe the CTA should re-think the speed limit.
1.Does the Bronx need any additional subway lines and If so will an elevated line affect the enviroment?
2.Does the 5 need any express service north of 180 street and if so,is it possible to build an IND or BMT terminal with an IRT terminal without effecting 5 service orthe enviromen?
what's with all your questions about the environment? Setting up an elevated line may ruin the view of the sky for a few people, but it's not anything bad like putting a nuclear reactor in the middle of Central Park.
I love reading your posts......
1) Sure, the Bronx could use another elevated line. They could have
rehabilitated the Third Avenue El thirty years ago instead of throwing it down.
2) Are you talking about 5 Express along White Plains Road from 180th to 241st? It would not make sense. Riders along upper White Plains Road would have to change at 180th for Lexington Service if you ran the 5 Express and it only stopped at Gun Hill Road.
IND-BMT-IRT Terminal. Where? Are you suggesting that they extend the D from 205th Street?
"2) Are you talking about 5 Express along White Plains Road from 180th to 241st? It would not make sense. Riders along upper White Plains Road would have to change at 180th for Lexington Service if you ran the 5 Express and it only stopped at Gun Hill Road."
The #5 express will be a wonderful idea. Just like the D express is a wonderful idea. I wonder why this wasn't figure out before. Certain passengers have to change for the #5, SO WHAT! They do that already when they take the #2 to E.180th Street when they change for the Manhattan Bond #5 out of Dyre Avenue.
N/W Broadway Lines
I would rather take Metro North which runs a few blocks west of the upper White Plains Road line than take the 5 down to Grand Central and midtown if that was my final destination.
Which cars have been assigned to the "B","D","Q" and "W" trains now that the south side tracks of the Manhattan bridge are in use rather than the north side tracks.
#3 West End Jeff, formerly BMTJeff
B & D has R68's...............Diamond Q has slant R40's..........Round Q has R68's..........W has R68A.........and If you care the N has everything. At least on paper (READ: not engraved in stone) 10 trains of R32's, 6 trains of slant 40's and 4 trains of R68.
Thank you for the information on the car assignments.
#3 West End Jeff, formerly BMTJeff
N also has the R44 (or whatever the one with the electronic signs), as I have ridden an "N" with the electronic side destination.
Wrong! Unless you are speaking of the late 70s. The R-46s are strictly assigned to the E,F,G and R lines and the R-44s are assigned only to the A. Of course you might have seen a re-routed R train but this is not by design.
An R-46 trainset takes care of the Grand Street shuttle, and R-44's run on the Rockaway Park shuttle.
The last time an R46 ran on the N line, they didn't have those electronic signs. And I've never seen an R44 on anything but the A since I became a regular railfan in late 1985.
Look at SubTalk message #247146 for the current car assignments. You should never consider the car assignments set into stone because the TA has to do whatever it has to do to provide the full service compliment. R46 cars come out of Jamaica Yard for F/G/R service (and E service because I just said that these car assignments are not set into stone), and R44 cars come out of Pitkin and 207 Yards for the A and Rock Park shuttle service. With that said, I hear there was an R46 N train during a recent PM rush hour. This was done for one reason and one reason only: due to a delay in N service, an R46 trainset was borrowed from the R line.
I also rode an R68a on the the other day, borrowed from the W.
My last W trip today was on a set of R68s, so there is some play in this assignment list.
It seems the R-32s have been associated with the N in some capacity ever since they arrived from Budd in 1964-65. Not exclusively, of course, but enough to make their presence known. I still consider them to be BMT cars, believe it or not.
When headed due south from the bridge toward DeKalb, at the first opportunity a Q or W has to veer to the right, there appears to be a trackway to nowhere (as if we're veering off of a long-gone switch). I haven't seen this subject broached recently, and I was wondering if anyone could identify what exactly this is/was...
Thanks in advance.
Rednoise
(NewQirQ)
I know what you are referring to. I don't think it was ever much of anything.
I haven't been through the area for some time (at least operating or from the front storm door) but perhaps that is a trackway that was abandoned when DeKalb ave./Gold st. interlockings were reconfigured in the 50's. Remember that old Myrtle ave. station was eliminated on the southbound side to make the current configuration possible.
I was riding south on the 2 today in the Bronx, and a train passed going north on the middle track. It was a pair of redbirds, a yellow work car with a tapered roof marked S-01, I think, and then another pair of redbirds.
What is this S-01 car? It had two oversized sliding doors in the middle, that bent up into the roof like the London tube trains....
Dave
S-01 is the Signal Dolly which delivers materials to various locations on the system. I saw S-01 heading south at 135th St-Lenox Av this afternoon. It was going home to 207th St.
There is also an S-02.
Note to Dave P: Make a notation, on Redbird Scrap Page, of the 4 Redbirds in Work Service (8600-01, 8634-35).
Can one say these are formally the first "Off The Road" Redbirds to enter work service? I wonder when are these getting the MOW paint treatment?
And what of the elderly R-22s? Gone?
-Stef
I always thought any work/money service R12 thru R22 ought to get bumped off by newer Redbirds.
That may be the case. But seriously, I believe the R-33WF Cars are supposed to be entering work service after retirement from Passenger Service. I can see new Rider Cars Coming.....
-Stef
Stef- Beat you to it, the signal dolly cars have been on the list for several days, although I hear their assignment may not be permanent.
The old horses are probably buried in the back of 207 yard. I haven't heard of them leaving the property. I saw one in the back about a month ago. They are highly unreliable. The yard dispatcher at 207 probably has permission to use redbirds as horses for this purpose. Right now he/she has a large number to chose from and were probably the first ones he/she could grab. Wonder if they will be fitted with B division trippers. Probably a temporary assignment for the A division only.
Makes sense...there was a lot of signal infrastructure work going on.
Hi,
Does anyone know if there are any other enterance/exits to street level besides the corners at 161st & River Av.? Also does anyone know what construction is going on, on the mezzanine level of the station? Thanks..........
There is an entrance on 161st a block in from the Concourse (don't remember the name of the intersecting st.). This entrance also leads to the viaduct under the Concourse. You have to be at the front of a N/B train to be near this exit/entrance. A lot of the mezzanine area has been converted to a Transit Police substation.
Peace,
ANDEE
Tonight I saw a two-car train, painted yellow, on the Manhattan-bound 7th Av. tracks. The last car's number was R718 (I'm pretty sure), and it looked like there were a lot of people on the train. What was it?
Seth
The train in question is the Revenue Collector.
In the train are the collecting agents who go to each of the Token Booths to collect the revenue and take it to Jay Street. Some collection is done with the train, while armored trucks may also be utilized.
-Stef
Isn't "R" mean "Rider car", as in seats for the work crew.
Yes, but that isn't the car number here. It's actually a 2-car train: 0R718 and 1R718.
David
"Isn't "R" mean "Rider car", as in seats for the work crew."
A rider car's designation would be "RD" followed by a three digit number.
Bill "Newkirk"
http://communities.msn.com/TrainSimulatorFanSite/nycsubwaycarsskinspics.msnw
Here's some pics of the r36 redbird #7
I'm going to explain how children get dragged in subway car doors. I'm going to explain it without even mentioning any vehicles with 8 wheels. I'm going to explain it without mentioning a door.
Yesterday, a 4 year-old child in Brooklyn shot himself in the head. He didn't find a drug dealer's gun or his brother's gun under a mattress. He took his mother's loaded 38 caliber revolver and played with it. The mother, it should be mentioned, had the gun legally. The mother, a court officer, was licensed to carry it. The mother was trained in its use and in fire-arm safety. Yet this gun was not in a locked metal box as required. The gun was not out of the reach of a 4 yearold. It was not out of his sight. It was left loaded.
The child is alive for now but in grave condition as of 4 AM. The police are investigating and a family is in shock and chaos. Not alive is another little girl who was shot and killed just 2 weeks ago when her cousin found her uncle's illegal, improperly stored pistol. Instead of being interviewed by the news media, these families are being interviewed by the police. Instead of having the TA to blame and to sue, they have only themselves to blame.
The same mentality that leaves loded firearms carelessly lying around for children to find, to use and to kill themselves is the same mentality that pushes little kids through (well I guess I need to mention it now) closing train doors. The same carelessness that allows unsupervised children to discover firearms in the house is the same mentality that lets kids play on the trains and stations, unsupervised.
The argument of a lack of door obstruction sensors may have some validity in protecting the children who's parents or gardians can't or won't. However, my granddaughters are veteran redbird riders. I have no fear about them on redbirds or any other subway car. You see, their mother, their father and their grandparents take responsibility for them and we treat them as the precious peolple they are.
End of lesson.
When the TA cannot shift responsibility, they might try to fix improperly designed equipment. The most recent example is the rash of doors opening on the wrong side and the "door enabler" response. Getting passengers caught in doors and dragging them on the platforms does provide an additional target for blame. It is a inconsistent to a assume that the same C/R who cannot determine whether or not a platform is present needs additional assistance whereas that same C/R needs no additional help to determine that door thresholds are free of passengers.
You are correct that 10 years ago the redbirds should have gotten door obstruction sensors. However, the same politicians who are now fighting each other for airtime on Eyewitness News (on this issue) are the same people who opposed funding the sensors for the redbirds 10 years ago.
There is a misconception about what door obstruction is. The technology of the time 'said' that the guard light would not clear if either door panel were not closed to within a specific distance of the centerline. A child's arm will certainly meet this criteria. However, in the act of trying to extricate ones arm, rocking the doors back and forth actually allows the guardlight to clear by shifting the 'gap' to an already closed & locked panel. The feature known as pushback then allows the obstruction to pass, undetected.
Consequently, the opposite panel closes, the guardlight clears and the train moves. With door obstruction, the sensor switch of one panel will break before the opposing door sensor makes if an obstruction is present. This prevents a guard light from clearing until the obstruction is removed, no matter how the doors are rocked. It's the same 1960s technology with a different logic applied.
As I have my 3 favorite visitors staying with me this weekend, I was distracted in writing my response to your point. The bottom line has always been that door obstruction not withstanding, if the parent or guardian takes proper precautions, pays proper attention, simply gives a damn, the children will never get caught in the doors.
Unfortunately, I have not read the earlier posts in this thread -- so this may have been discussed.
Isn't the conductor supposed to watch the platform in both directions as the train pulls out? If he is diligent in doing this, I do not understand how people are ever dragged along the platform. He should easily see it happening and stop the train. What am I missing?
Not every platform is 100% straight and straight can be just as bad as a curved platform where cctv or mirrrors are used to 'see around bends'.
Straight platforms create a problem where the conductor (myself) may be looking for a gap to close the doors- that is everyone off everyone on within as little dwell time as possible- BUT and it is a big but whilst looking for adults a child may be unseen if the conductor becomes focused on the adults at headhight.
Here in England it is still the norm for conductors to operate suburban trains from the rearmost cab although a train can be officially operated from any position except that at the head end.
Having been a conductor on both the Tube and mainline railroads a 'simple job' (my words) of opening and closing doors and giving a start signal takes 100% concentration every time.
Rob:^)
London UK
Okay, let us say for argument sake that it's your child and the conductor is inattentive. If your child were injured because you were not duly vigilant, would the conductor's negligence mitigate the pain?
It'd make the attorney feel better. :)
In my observation, people are always standing near to the train, and the conductor cannot get a clear view of the train once the doors have closed and he has give the signal. Crowds stand right up next to the train waiting now for the next. How can the conductor tell that one of these is caught in the door. This is why he must watch, he should see the comotion and stop the train if someone is being dragged. It is 300 feet from his position to either end of the train, with people standing on the platform next to the train. He can look right at you and not be able to tell that you are caught.
Think of the lifeguards down at the beach. You have to be in trouble before they will notice you and react. That is whay the conductor is looking out of the train: at this point he is a lifeguard looking for trouble. A Double check: Not the primary prevention of an incident.
Does not the indication come up when the doors are closed and locked? Or does the conductor have to also give a start command as on the LIRR.
And what in OPTO, who will watch then?
Elias
I think this is how it goes; the conductor gets indication for each half of the train then passes indication to the motorman. Once the C/R gets both indication lights he removes his key and that will pass indication to the T/O (the indication light will come on). At that point (unless it is a terminal) the T/O can take power and move. If the T/O indication light does not come on he cannot take power (with the exception of a bypass button).
Once indication is passed and there is trouble the C/R is supposed to stop the train using his emergency brake valve (not the buzzers).
Close but not quite. - This is how it goes for real. When the train is properly zoned, the conductor has a north section and a south section. The feed for the conductor's indication starts at the open ends of the train. They passes through the #27 finger of the signal light relay in each car of their respective zones until both strings reach the middle. When all doors are closed and lockes and all obstruction sensors are clear, the signal light relays make up and the C/R gets indication. At the same time, the motorman's indication is fed from B+ in the last car. It passes through every signal light relay in the train (#21 finger). When all signal light relays are made up the motorman's indication is only broken by the conductor's key switch. When the conductor gets his indication in both zones, he turns his key and that completes the circuit to the motorman's indication bulbs and the master door relay. It's the master door relay (PIR on the R-46s) that allows the train to move.
The train pulls out with you in the door. The CR sees you and stops the train . Weren't you just dragged?
Why don't people teach their kids how to handle and correctly safe weapons? I'm sure the mother taught the kid what to do if a stranger came up to them etc.
More importantly, basic firearms safety dictates that you don't load a weapon unless you intend to fire it in the foreseeable future and even then you should make sure it is safed.
Why don't people teach their kids how to handle and correctly safe weapons?
Why don't people teach their children not to be obnoxious dorks?
Sorry, I've been reading too many Train Dude posts, and expected him to post this.
For the record, I don't find "Jerkey Mike" to be an obnoxious dork in person.
Old fart Bob
Bob,I hate being upstaged....... Then again, for a person who advocates teaching gun safety to 4 year olds, your subtleties may have passed safely overhead.
My father was a licensed NRA instructor. As early as the age of 5 I was taught how to load and unload all the weapons in the house (he was a parole officer on Rikers). I was also taught to RESPECT THE WEAPON AND NEVER POINT A GUN AT ANYONE!! Plus I had my cap guns to play with and NEVER an urge to play with a real one.
What am I missing, mikey? My point was that this 'mother' WAS trained in gun safety. She was told that her weapon was supposed to be kept locked on a metal box out of the reach of children. Now, unless I've missed something, she did not do this. In consequence her son found the revolver and if you believe the mother's account, the child shot himself in the head. My point was it was this same recklessness, thoughtlessness, carelessness and indifference on the part of parents that lead to subway tragedies. Now, what part of that do you disagree with?
I wasn't disagreeing with you. I was just emphasizing that fact that she was being doublely stupid. Lazy parenting and firearms incoptance despite safefy training.
Incoptance...Change it to 'Incopatence' and it's a word I like. Someone should trademark it before Al Sharpton uses it.
-Hank
Hey, that simple spelling mistake could turn into a whole new buzz word.
>>> basic firearms safety dictates that you don't load a weapon unless you intend to fire it in the foreseeable future <<<
That is certainly not what I learned regarding firearms. Since many police officers go through their entire career without firing their weapon in anger, I suppose under your theory they should never carry a loaded weapon.
The basic firearms safety I was taught was to consider any weapon as cocked and loaded until you personally determine it is not, and not to point a weapon at anyone you are not prepared to kill. Home defense weapons are almost always kept loaded. The real question which has to be determined individually is, is having a home defense weapon worth the risks it entails? I personally keep a weapon, but never allow children in my home. During a short period in the ‘90s when I had a friend with children staying with me, I dismantled my weapon and removed some of the operating parts from my home.
Tom
>>> basic firearms safety dictates that you don't load a weapon unless you intend to fire it in the foreseeable future <<<
That is certainly not what I learned regarding firearms. Since many police officers go through their entire career without firing their weapon in anger,
Just another instance where jersey Mike professes to be an expert in an area where he has no knowledge. What else is new?
So if you are storing your weapon where there is no possibility of it being used you should keep it loaded. Yeah, that's smart. I have always been taught that you should never leave a weapon loaded unless you absolutely need it to be. But hey, I'm just stupid old Mike. What do I know.
Firearms should never be left loaded. I was told this by a cop who also uses his arms at home for hunting. Ohio law requires that weapons in transit are unloaded. Of course, you must assume any firearm is loaded until you have personally checked that it is not -- but that doesn't mean you should delibrately leave your firearm loaded...
Now, for home defense -- you can leave the firearm loaded if you want, but you run the risk of shooting yourself when you're trying to turn the bedside light on. But then, if you want to shoot an intruder, that's the risk you run. Personally, I think it's easier just to have no money so no intruder will come to rob you.
Lexcie
Regarding home defence, how long does it take to load most hand guns? Usually a few seconds. If it really comes to the point where you don't have time to load it you're pretty much already screwed as the intruder would have to be in the room with you and Mr. quick draw sleepy time homeowner wouldn't be able to hit much anyway. Having to actually load your weapon before opening fire is a good way to avoid shooing that family member who came looking for a glass of water. Not leaving weapons loaded is like the most basic safety precaution one can take.
>>> Personally, I think it's easier just to have no money so no intruder will come to rob you. <<<
Hardly good enough in the land of Charles Manson and the Night Stalker (Ramirez).
Tom
"I have always been taught that you should never leave a weapon loaded unless you absolutely need it to be."
Mike, without being defensive or argumentative, who taught you this? Personally, I don't care if the gun is loaded or not. It is supposed to be stored in a locked metal box out of the reach of children. Not left in a purse, Not left on top of the refrigerator. Not left in a nightstand. For the record, the 4 year old that I mentioned in my initial post, has died. The news reports say the mother is grieving. She should be making her one phone call to a lawyer.
Aside from family members two rangemasters at two different shooting places I went to. It is also a pretty common sence thing to do.
>>> basic firearms safety dictates that you don't load a weapon unless you intend to fire it in the foreseeable future <<<
That is certainly not what I learned regarding firearms. Since many police officers go through their entire career without firing their weapon in anger, I suppose under your theory they should never carry a loaded weapon
Maybe civilian safety and police practice are not the same. Friends that I've had (including my father-in-law who had a collection and made his own ammo) did not keep any weapons loaded that weren't to be used soon.
MP practice at my posts was to have two loaded magazines while on duty with one in your pistol and one in your utility belt. When on a break where there were non-MP personnel (say to eat lunch) you removed the magazine from your pistol and restored it when returning to duty.
You never had a round chambered unless you had imminent need. And at the end of your duty day you discharged your pistol into a sand filled barrel. One clown I know of decided to clown around with this procedure once. He didn't end up hurting anyone else, but from what I hear, I'm not sure if Viagra would help.
Actually, from what I've heard talking to people who would like to have a pistol but haven't the training, I'd be scared to be around them knowing that they keep loaded weapons.
>>> Friends that I've had (including my father-in-law who had a collection and made his own ammo) did not keep any weapons loaded that weren't to be used soon. <<<
You are talking about the major difference between a collector and someone who may have to use a firearm such as a liquor store clerk, jewelry salesman, bank guard, or armored car guard. For the latter group, the time between knowing that you are going to use the weapon and using it is far to short to allow loading it at that time.
>>> MP practice at my posts was to have two loaded magazines while on duty with one in your pistol and one in your utility belt. <<<
The military is a special case since most of the MPs were 18 or 19 year old kids, and it could be the end of his career for any Officer in Charge who allowed a soldier to shoot a civilian. Where I was, they were not allowed to have a magazine in the pistol even while on duty, unless they were in a situation where they might have to fire. Once we were congratulating one MP for good shooting when he was able to load his .45 and bring down a fleeing burglar in the housing area with a single shot to the head in the dead of night. A daylight investigation the next day determined it was actually a ricochet from an overhead street lamp which the MP meant to be a warning shot.
In my own unit, whenever we had to carry classified material between military posts, we had to be armed. It was something of a joke though, since we were given the CO's .45 caliber pistol which none of us had qualified with, or even practiced with and a magazine of ammunition. Our instructions were not to load the magazine in the pistol. We were given absolutely no guidance about using the firearm if any one attempted to take the classified material.
Tom
Forty years ago U S Army Class A Agents and their guards had to be armed with a loaded magazine in the weapon. Both the agent and the guard had to be qualified with the sidearm in order to perform the duty. The sidearm was normally the M1911A1 "45" pistol. Agents were normally 2nd or 1st Lieutenants, and the guard was either a PFC or a Spec 4.
>>> U S Army Class A Agents and their guards had to be armed with a loaded magazine in the weapon <<<
What is a "Class A Agent"? It was forty years ago that I was in the Army, and our procedure looks like a corruption of what you described. Our unit only had one Captain and two Warrant Officers. The classified materials were schematics and diagrams for repairing guided missiles and launchers which we had to take from our location to the batteries where the missiles were. As I indicated before, we were completely untrained in the use of the M1911A1 .45 pistol, and it was two lower ranking enlisted men with one weapon (we only had one pistol, the Warrants had carbines). Even more interesting was the fact that if we were unable to solve a problem an unarmed civilian tech rep from Western Electric or Douglas would show up with much more detailed updated diagrams than we had.
Our security was very lax. I remember once making a stop at a PX on base, and leaving the material and the pistol under the seat of our unlocked truck (I was the junior man on the team). Another time we stopped at a Gasthäus for a beer and took the material in with us. I sat on the books. This was a place where we were well known, which was frequented by a number of ex Wehrmacht veterans. They had a professional interest in the pistol so we passed it (unloaded) around the table so all could inspect it.
Tom
The class A Agent was the officer who paid the enlisted men by cash each month. He was appointed by General Order, but it was his responsibility to select his guard, normally a trusted enlisted man from his own unit. In my stateside unit it normally took more than a day to find and pay all of the men on the monthly payroll. It was probably more confusing in this case, because I am speaking of a Hq & Svc Co of a Training Brigade, which was a very large payroll 65K to 85 K each month
Loaded weapons wore worn from the time the cash was picked up at Finance until the undistributed remainder was turned in. The agent and his guard were only unarmed when paying men in the stockade.
>>> The class A Agent was the officer who paid the enlisted men by cash each month. <<<
Oh yeah, now I remember. Those were the days when the pay was $67.00 a day, once a month, and some of the enlisted men were broke by the following morning.
Tom
Those were the days when the pay was $67.00 a day,
In your dreams!
Those were the days when the average pay was $93.-$110. a month.
>>> In your dreams!
Those were the days when the average pay was $93.-$110. a month. <<<
Re read my post. It was $67.00 a day, but that day only came once a month. To earn $93.00-$110.00 you had to have some rank. By the time you repaid loans from the previous month and purchased shoe polish, toothpaste, and soap from the PX, and possibly a replacement part of your uniform from the Quartermaster Store, there was not a lot left over for high living.
Tom
I'm sorry, Tom! I must have been really tired last night.
An H & S Co was all permanent party personnel so I guess that's why our pay was higher. I can't recall for sure, I think that even a Pvt E-2 got $71.00. The $67.00 must have been the RFA personnel.
The pay was a lot less in those days, but don't forget that soft drinks were a nickel, Campbell's Soup was 7 cents a can, and cigarettes were $1.50 a carton.
>>> cigarettes were $1.50 a carton. <<<
Actually the cigarettes were $1.20 per carton, which could be resold on the local economy for $5.00. We were rationed to four cartons a month. Heavy smokers could get an additional ration. Quartermaster gasoline sold for 12¢ per gallon, also rationed. The cost of gas on the local economy was about 55¢ per gallon and over 80¢ per gallon in France. In the United States at that time the cost of gasoline was about 25¢ per gallon.
At that time a local working man's monthly take home pay was about $100.00, and since our $67.00 pay did not require any deduction for rent, food or utilities, it was a pretty good time.
Tom
I put in 1972 as a base year, and that $67/mo works out to just over $275 in 2000 dollars. I made that in two weeks working in a supermarket, part-time, for slightly above minimum wage. That sucked.
-Hank
>>> $67/mo works out to just over $275 in 2000 dollars. I made that in two weeks working in a supermarket, part-time, for slightly above minimum wage. That sucked. <<<
You have to remember back then (1960) the government did not have to pay competitive wages. They could just send you a telegram and let you know you had been chosen by your friends and neighbors to do your patriotic duty.
Tom
The military is a special case since most of the MPs were 18 or 19 year old kids, and it could be the end of his career for any Officer in Charge who allowed a soldier to shoot a civilian.
Your experience with MP selection, training and maturity seems to be a little different from mine. The MP .45 is a difficult weapon and not easy to qualify with, plus MPs had to familiarize with other weapons, including shotguns, grenade launchers and machine guns, as well as qualifying on M14s (and M16s if going to 'Nam).
I wonder how many city cops ever see the diversity of duty and situations of an MP in wartime.
And are you aware that MPs must be well versed as to their role in regard to civilians? Do you know the requiements of the Posse Comitatus Act?
In my own unit, whenever we had to carry classified material between military posts, we had to be armed. It was something of a joke though, since we were given the CO's .45 caliber pistol which none of us had qualified with, or even practiced with and a magazine of ammunition. Our instructions were not to load the magazine in the pistol. We were given absolutely no guidance about using the firearm if any one attempted to take the classified material.
And you're belittling MPs experience? What was your MOS?
>>> Your experience with MP selection, training and maturity seems to be a little different from mine <<<
I have no experience with MP selection or training, but my observation of the maturity comes from sharing a mess hall with an MP company for three years, and drinking with them in certain off limits places as well as running a bar where off duty MPs hung out. Most of the lower ranking soldiers on street patrol were under twenty. This compares to a requirement in most civilian police departments that sworn officers be twenty-one. It should be noted that my sample was somewhat selective since married men with their wives on post did not frequent the mess hall or the off limits drinking places, so I was dealing with single men, or married men without their wives.
They had no jurisdiction over civilians not connected with the Army, so they generally patrolled places where GIs hung out and would respond if the German police had a situation involving an American soldier, i.e a drunken soldier or a soldier beating his German wife. The tales they told included the best places to sell black market gasoline and cigarettes, but usually emphasized beating up prisoners with the comparison of the treatment by different MPs to certain GIs known to them by name as being repeat offenders. Much of the discussion was of ways to inflict pain that would not do permanent damage or be traced back to them. Also the comparative ability of different races to sustain punishment. Not what I consider a mature view of Police Science.
Tom
This was peacetime Germany c.1960? Sure doesn't speak well for the state of the U.S. Army at that time. No wonder some muckety mucks thought a little diversion in S.E. Asia would be good training...
What I saw not that many years later was a lot different.
>>> This was peacetime Germany c.1960? Sure doesn't speak well for the state of the U.S. Army at that time. <<<
No it does not, but peacetime armies tend to be more lax than armies in a combat zone. Without excusing the MPs' conduct, it is possible to understand it, when you consider they were seeing the same drunken brawlers over and over again. A soldier would be taken to the police station, with the MPs possibly suffering bruises and minor lacerations, and the soldier's unit would be contacted to pick him up. It was then up to the soldier's commander to determine the punishment. At that time, drunkenness and fighting, as long as no one (especially civilians) was seriously hurt was treated with a "boys will be boys" attitude (alcoholism was rampant among the career veterans of WW II), so the soldier would get no more than an Article 15, and loss of his pass for a couple of weeks. The frustrated MPs seeing the same soldiers over and over again would add their own punishment to try to dissuade repeat offences.
Tom
Without excusing the MPs' conduct, it is possible to understand it, when you consider they were seeing the same drunken brawlers over and over again.
I would imagine that's pretty much true even today for regular police officers in smaller cities and towns.
Granted all your points--however.
Have you ever tried to manage a balky child--or perhaps several balky children--in a subway environment? I have. Or even well-trained cooperative children.
I have seen people do incredibly stupid--and ignorant--and rude things vis a vis their children. But subways are not a kid friendly environment--and I've seen transit personnel make things worse.
You're asking people to walk in your shoes. Other people have shoes too.
Is the moving on your transitalk site compleate?
No, It will be done late this month, we have well over 5,000 pictures to move to a brand new server plus the several pages its self to move!
Sorry for the delay, but I'm not a magician!
Regards,
Trevor Logan
www.transitalk.com
So what point are you at (in percent)?
BTW how abut you have a temporary page to view moved photos?
I was woundering about the SAME THING!
Looka here son son, When you operate a site as big as TransiTALK or NYCsubway.org, then speak. It will be done when it is done, if you are a true fan of a page or something, you will have the patience to wait!
I'm not Merlin ova here!
Regards,
Trevor Logan
Trevor, man, I feel your pain :-)
-Dave
I wounder how long for a BIG Site to move into a new server?
Just let me know when it's DONE!
It isn't easy to deploy a mission-critical server my friend, I've tried to master Windows 2000 Server in a course of 2 months, it was awfully hard!
I see! Must be that you have to send the files over to that program and takes a bit lond to send them over to there.
It will problay be done in late august.
I know you a rail/busfan.
Have you considered using email for your private conversation? Trevor's email address is available in every one of his posts. Sending 'TO' messages on a public board is the absolute HEIGHT of rudeness. We've been here before.
-Hank
Yeah but I don't want to catch a virus. I mean I don't know much about trevor logan he could be a computer hacker!
Are you REALLY that stupid? I could give you a virus right from this page if I wanted to. YOU CAN'T GET A VIRUS FROM EMAIL, UNLESS YOU'RE STUPID ENOUGH TO OPEN AN ATTACHMENT YOU DIDN'T EXPECT.
-Hank
Actually, you can collect a "virus" without ever opening an email if you allow what is called a "preview pane" in Outbreak Express (Microsoft's motto: "nothing spreads disease faster than outbreak express") to be enabled or you have the Windows Scripting Host enabled. Most viruses do come in the form of an attachment but if you permit "scripting" of any sort, and use Microsoft anything to view the email or a web page containing "(object id=) (improper brackets used here just to keep your browser from going nuts) tags, then life can get interesting indeed. But just wanted to correct the misconception that something can't leap into your pants without physically opening an attachment - such exploits are quite real - this kinda stuff is what *I* handle for a living now.
Look at code red for example - no file, no attachment, no executable involved - it buffer overflows the IIS web server software from Microsquish and does its thing if IIS isn't patched, and as of 8am today there's a brand new "Code Red II" making the rounds and we're all gathered around our screens here wondering if it's getting past their latest patch given the way traffic's ramping up with this new variant.
So the safest way to go about it is DON'T allow scripting unless you absolutely trust the site, never open an attachment unless you've scanned it first, and be wary even of streaming video/audio files such as WAV's ... Microsoft NT, 2000 and XPee support "hidden streams" which can be embedded in such files. If you're using 95, 98 or MiniME, those don't have such capabilities ... yet ...
Then again, if you've got a Mac or are running Linux, continue enjoying your surf. :)
WIth a properly maintained system (those not properly maintained are owned by stupid people, ESPECIALLY when major media tells you exactly where to go to fix such bugs), this is never a problem. SirCam is the threat du jour for home users; Code Red is initially run by someone at a console; once it's found a suitable host in IIS, it can spread itself, and continue to do so, until such time as every Microsuck server on the planet is patched and restarted. That's what makes this particular bug unique.
THen there's the idiot virus, literally. 'Delete SUFLNBK.EXE, its a virus! I had it too!'
It gets you to do the dirty work. And with Java, ActiveX, and those wonderful idots who provide constant music on their web sites...
-Hank
Oh, Outlook Express's preview pane doesn't automatically open anything other than graphic files, and then only if HTML email is enabled. All one needs to do to fight scripting virii before they click on them is be aware of file types, and disable the hidden extensions for registered file types. To the naive user, picture.jpg.scp looks like a JPEG. Must be safe.
Open My Computer
In 95/98/98SE, click 'View'
In ME/XP/2K, click 'Tools'
Click 'Folder Options'
Click the 'View' tab
Remove the mark from 'Hide file extensions for known file types'
Click 'OK'
You're done, and you can now look before you leap.
-Hank
Well, didn't want to continue on on this diversion from the thread, but UNPATCHED machines (and yes, if you reinstall windows, whoops go all those patches) are prone to a long standing Outbreak Express exploit involving the preview pane ...
Microsoft's "patch" for it is here
And just a brief assortment of adventures involving that can be found on these links:
http://office.microsoft.com/assistance/2000/BubbleBoy.aspx
http://www.leeshanok.com/viruswatch_outlook.htm
There's plenty more examples of them, all of which exploit VBS scripting host and "HTA objects" in scripting embedded in HTML. You're correct that an ATTACHMENT can't infect you unless you actually execute it, but scripting WAS a problem and as the Red Code II and III worm that's now circulating this weekend attests, there's a LOT of unpatched machines still out there, thus the advice. But all of this is WAY off topic for subtalk other than my wanting to explain that there is a valid reason for many to fear links and other data presented on their screen that they're not expecting to find there.
And any antivirus program is COMPLETELY USELESS unless you run it.
That is the utmost form of disrespect to even think of something like that from me. I'm utterly disgusted by you recent comment, and really almost not can't stand a post from you. How Dare You!
And I'm not joking either!
Regards,
Trevor Logan
www.transitalk.com
I don't think he meant it in any kind of an insulting way but it's up to himi to explain it - the internet itself is built on "trust" on a technical basis, and lately that "trust" has been bruised repeatedly by a plethora of Microsoft-induced shortcomings ... I'd be willing to bet that he didn't mean anything against you personally but rather that the level of "trust" required to run any files that aren't from a familiar person is a danger ... perhaps it could have been better phrased but I didn't take it as any indication of a judgement againt you personally - rather a distrust of unknown files ... I see this all the time for what it's worth ... and the fear factor behind it is getting worse on a daily basis ...
Also, you can spend the 25-35 bucks and buy an Antivirus program. Scan your hard disk once a week and you won't have to worry. If people are paranoid about opening every little e-mail, then you might as well call your ISP and cancel. The media blows virus problems WAY out of proportion. The risk isn't that great. I read the whole thread and don't think any real insult was meant. As far as Outlook Express and IE are concerned, I have no problem with either. I find them MUCH better than Netscape, but that's just my opinion. And, we all know opinions are like a**hol*s, everyone has one! ^_^ So, bottom line, if you're that concerned about viruses, buy Norton Antivirus 2001. I haven't found any other anti virus program that is equal. I've been virus free since using it. Also, running the autoprotect feature just slows down your system. Manually doing a weekly scan is fine. You can also configure the program to automatically scan your e-mail program.
If anyone wants tech info, e-mail me. I am a computer tech, as are many others on this post. However, I will not use this board again for anything but train talk.
Tony
Hey, give equal time to McAfee Anti-Virus (or Dr. Solomon's)!
You can't just buy an AV program and be protected. You actually need to UPDATE the virus signatures often. That's the REAL problem. Most companies don't charge for updates, yet. Many virii are simply adaptations of existing ones (Sub7), and are found easily; but ONLY if your detection files are up-to-date.
-Hank
Ooooo, fj34r m3, 1 4m 5up3r 31337....Lol, I'm no hacker, but I know the language:-)
For now on I will make a list of subtalkers that I trust BTW I trust D4000 and he is not a computer hacker.
Today was the second time I confused AM and PM while setting up my VCR. That's why I'm going to start using 24 hour time for the chat.
Im there
Oh, isn't this the chat where we have to pay you 5 bucks to get unbanned? OH YEAH IT IS...freak!
You were only banned for the one session.
Hhat about me? Why can't you ban people for one session?
what about me? Why can't you ban people for one session?
You got banned?
Hmm, well you could always come over to irc.dal.net channel #subtalk where there's no draconian policy and no banning. I'm there now, in fact.
Where its also not registered, so therefore I am op, and I will idle there forever (Running Windows XP, very stable) hehehe:-)
What Draconian policy? The idiot constantly changed his nickname to E_DOG blocking the real person from using that name, so I gave him a timeout, then he scrolled and used obscenities, and tried to get on through different addresses. He deserved to be banned.
I don't think that you can go around calling policies "draconian," the kettle is offended.
J
O
K
E....You should have gotten it, my hostnames were funny and I didn't scroll!
Whatever, last post about this subject...
From the 1914 "Rules for Conductors and Motormen", NY Railways Company:
Rule 48 states that a person caught stealing a ride on a car (streetcar) could not be "driven therefrom while in motoion" but had to be put off at the next station or stop. No wonder they couldn't keep employees. They took all the fun out of the job.
Damn!
So you can’t throw Momma from the car!
LOL
Heh. Being a largely ELEVATED railway did impose a few limitations. :)
NY Railways was a street car line. The Els were operated by the IRT.
Whoops.
It's not stupid, it's another "codified common sense" rule from the American Electric Railways Association standardized rules for street railways. What it means is a Conductor, seeing a kid hanging on the bumper to steal a ride, can't push the kid off, smack him so he falls, or spray him with tobacco juice to shock him off while the car is in motion. He's gotta wait until the car stops before doing any of the aforementioned actions, unless the kid jumps off when the car stops and runs away.
I'll bet there's a section in that book which details the way in which drivers are supposed to operate the streetcars. That's where they probably remove most of the fun from the job - for example: No going around tight corners in fully loaded open cars (well, perhaps 1914 might be a bit late for open cars, but earlier) at high rates of speed.
-Robert King
... perhaps 1914 might be a bit late for open cars ...
The Connecticut Company ran them up until about 1939... only things they had that could swallow the crowds from the Yale football games.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Actually the ConCo open cars ran for the Yale Bowl up to 1948 - that's how Branford and Seashore each got several of them
Thanks for the date correction, Dan... knew I should have looked it up!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
While on the night shift last night, 3 LIRR Switchers 161 157 and 165 were sighted. 430AM, they pass 48 St and Barnett Ave heading towards Manhattan or Hunters Point. 445AM they all come back heading eastbound towards LI. What were these 3 switchers doing? What were they doing for those few minutes? Strange to see them on a Saturday morning.
Also another question while I'm on the topic of LIRR Switchers. Long Island 102 and 104 head westbound from 7am and head eastbound at about 10am on thew weekdays. They come back westbound at 330pm and head out at 730pm. I believe they park around 43 St. My question is what are these 2 engines used for? I see them go back and forth all the time. Always curious about that.
#951 Amtrak AEM-7
102 and 104 are rescue locomotives in case a LIRR MU lays down in one of AMTRAKs tunnels. They are kept strategically adjacent to Harold tower. As for their daily jaunts between Jamaica & Harold, since the LIRR frowns on unauthorized stops by peak trains, I would guess that 102 and 104 are shuttling Harold personnel to and from the tower.
As for the 3 LIRR locos, I'd assume that they were assigned to the track rehab project and were simply being moved out of the way while the heavy equipment was moved OR they too may have been transporting personnel.
Were the 3 MPs facing the other directions? could have been they ran down the line from dropping work cars at fresh pond and turned on on the wye lead to yard A (sunnyside) - sorta like how they used to turn the gp's during the afternoon so they'd face east for the afternoon rush...
i can't imagine why else they'd come down the line for such a short period of time, not picking anything up...
Two weeks into the flip, the TA still hasn't posted the revised M train schedule on its website.
I can think of two broad possible scenarios for this:
1. They haven't gotten their timetable artist to produce the new brochure and, even if he/she has, they haven't thought to make a PDF of it yet, and even if they have, they haven't thought (or don't care enough) to get it on their website.
2. They're testing the waters, seeing how many people actually are using the service. After vacations are over in September, they come out with their passengers count and say "nobody's using it--they're walking, or using the Chinatown shuttle bus, or going via bridge and changing at Canal." So we're killing the service and saving the people of NYC $2 million.
What do you think? 1, 2 or some of each?
Some of each.
I don't think the service is really needed. I'd take the Express over the bridge and either change at Canal or walk...........
There will be a special M line pick for C/R's and T/O's (straight jobs and RDO relief only) who have currently at least one weekday assignment on the line. The pick will last from August 13-15 and will go into effect on Aug. 26.
After August 26th, then you may see an updated M line schedule on the MTA website, but not before then.
Is there a specific car that the conductor rides in on LIRR trains?
Here it is from the August ERA New York Bulletin:
Cars Required
Line AM Rush
A 110 R-38, 216 R-44
B 80 R-68
C 112 R-32, 40 R-38
D 104 R-68
E 220 R-32
F 392 R-46
G 72 R-46*
J/Z 80 R-40M, 72 R-42
L 40 R-40, 128 R-42
M 144 R-42
N 100 R-32, 60 R-40, 32 R-68
Q Diamond Exp. 140 R-40
Q Local 136 R-68
R 216 R-46
W 8 R-68, 160 R-68A
S (63rd Street) 24 R-32*
S (Grand Street) 4 R-46**
S (Rockaway Pk) 12 R-44**
S (Franklin Ave) 4 R-68***
Cars Required
Line PM Rush
A 110 R-38, 216 R-44
B 80 R-68
C 104 R-32, 32 R-38
D 104 R-68
E 230 R-32
F 376 R-46
G 72 R-46*
J/Z 72 R-40M, 80 R-42
L 40 R-40, 128 R-42
M 144 R-42
N 100 R-32, 60 R-40, 32 R-68
Q Diamond Exp. 140 R-40
Q Local 144 R-68
R 216 R-46
W 160 R-68A
S (63rd Street) 24 R-32*
S (Grand Street) 4 R-46**
S (Rockaway Pk) 12 R-44**
S (Franklin Ave) 4 R-68***
* 6 Car Trains ** 4 Car Trains *** 2 Car Trains
The L&M lines also use R40M's.
The eastern division trains, except for the slants used on the L, have trains which all consist of mixed R40M/R42. I haven't seen a solid train of either type in 2 years.
There were still a few R-32's on the R as of last Sunday. There were at least two or three laid up on the express tracks in Queens (signed consistently as "R") and I saw one in service at 34th. They're uncommon, that's for sure.
There are plenty of R46's on the E as well, but those are officially "assigned" to the R as the R32's on the R are assigned to the E. They are frequently swapped for whatever reason.
That's the way it's been in the past, but someone "in the know" claimed here a week or two ago that the R was now 100% R-46, no exceptions.
According to the car assignment, the R line is 100% R-46. However, R-32s can pop up there from time to time, and probably do.
David
Time for some questions about car assignments. (I've asked one of these already but I haven't gotten an answer.)
First, why bother assigning specific car types to each line? Jamaica has R-32's and R-46's; why not send them out arbitrarily onto the lines served by Jamaica? Similarly, why not use an arbitrary mix of R-32's, R-40's, R-68's, and R-68A's on the N, Q, Q, and W instead of giving only N riders a bit of variety?
Second, how are these exceptions governed? The R gets an occasional R-32 and the E gets an occasional R-46, but the F never gets R-32's. There have been reports of R-40's on the W but not of R-32's. Why not?
Sorry it didn't come out the way I wanted it to look.
Those are the basic car assignments. There are deviations from them from time to time.
There have been some R-32's on the Q, R-46's on the E, it all depends.
R-40M's are based out of East New York, so yeah, they'll show up on the L and M.
But 9 times out of 10, that's what you'll get.
Of course, this doesn't count any spares. I.E. there are 48 Slant R40 assigned to the "L" with five trains in, one train out.
wayne
Once upon a time, there were 200 R38s. The information above shows at most - 150 in use. ARe there as many as 50 R38s no longer in service??
No - there are 196 R-38s currently on the 'revenue active' roster. What you are looking at is the number of R-38 cars required for service. There are cars that are not used at any given time and cars out of service for planned maintenance
This is the trip to Long Beach using the A and N 33. Meet by 10 AM at the Brooklyn bound end of the A/C at Chambers Street. Please be on time.
Yup yup yup. 3 rolls of film came back and here, for your viewing pleasure, are the best of them.
Here are 3 views of JAY tower at the Western throat of Jamaica Station on the LAIR.
http://129.133.1.64/~mbrotzman/JAY1.jpg
http://129.133.1.64/~mbrotzman/JAY2.jpg
http://129.133.1.64/~mbrotzman/JAY3.jpg
Here are two views of the Delair Verticle Life bridge over the Delaware River in South Jersey
http://129.133.1.64/~mbrotzman/Del10.jpg
http://129.133.1.64/~mbrotzman/Del11.jpg
Here is an LAIR MU train platformed at Jamaica Station.
http://129.133.1.64/~mbrotzman/LAIR-MU-platform.jpg
Here is an westbound LAIR MU train about to arrive at Jamacia.
http://129.133.1.64/~mbrotzman/LAIR_9.jpg
Here is the same train as it passes through HALL interlocking.
http://129.133.1.64/~mbrotzman/LAIR-hall-inbound.jpg
Here are FIVE LIAR trains in the same shot. All passing through HALL interlocking. 5:30 PM on a weekday at Jamaica, it dosen't get amy better.
http://129.133.1.64/~mbrotzman/LIAR-5atatime.jpg
Here is Amtrak F40 #280 in the lead of sister 291 and two evil Genisis locomotives. Here is the past, present and future of locomotives on the Inland Route all in the same shot.
http://129.133.1.64/~mbrotzman/Amt_280.jpg
Here is sister to 280, #291 still pullin hard.
http://129.133.1.64/~mbrotzman/Amt_291.jpg
Here are the 2 F40's having completed their final run on the Springfield Line. They were being transported from Springfield and might have been the last F40's to ever run on the inland route. WE'LL MISS YOU F40's!
http://129.133.1.64/~mbrotzman/NH81.jpg
very nice gald to see a lot of jamaca lirr locations ! do you have a website ?? e
Not for Photos.
.........rats ...........
What kind of camera are you using? One picture (amt 129) is a bit blurry - a faster shutter speed would have frozen the engine quite nicely although some depth of field would be sacrificed in doing so.
-Robert King
That was taken w/ my cheepo camera w/ 200 speed film. It takes forever to use up film in it.
Being able to bump the shutter speed up to 1/250 or 1/500th or even 1/1000th of a second on occasion can be useful for train photography taking into account that the faster the train is moving the higher a shutter speed will have to be to prevent it from becoming a blur in pictures. A lot of those pictures of the multiple unit electric trains would be much sharper as well if your camera could be forced to operate at sufficiently high shutter speeds. 1/125th and 1/60th of a second are both good to obtain deep depth of field but only if a train is sitting still. Basically, having control over your shutter speed (and indirectly or directly aperture depending on the camera) allows you to take better pictures under a wider range of shooting conditions.
If you're seriously into photographing trains then investing in a good quality used SLR camera (manual focus, but not necessarily manual exposure) with a 50mm lens, perhaps a 35mm lens as well, to start out with would probably be money well spent.
-Robert King
I have two cameras my good camera and my cheepo camera. The problem is that the good camera is really my mom's good camera so I can't take it everywhere I want to be. Ok, here's a test. Which two photos in my lot were taken by the good camera.
I can't really do this sort of thing from my computer screen. When I have slides in my hot little hands, I'm usually quite good at figuring out several useful parameters. When one of my friends here gives me slides look at, I can normally tell if they were shot in his Pentax K1000 or Canon AV-1, roughly what the exposure settings were, and what film was used and the ISO speed of it. But for all of that I can't tell if the colours are off(!).
-Robert King
You could also invest in about $ 300.oo & get the SONY DSP-S30 digital camera with a memory stick take good clean digital
photo(s), download them into your hard drive then burn them on a CD . Then loading them on subtalk would be a breeze !!!
If you live in nyc B&H would be a good place to buy that camera !! ( seen them at target & some k marts too ! )
You could also invest in about $ 300.oo & get the SONY DSP-S30 digital camera with a memory stick take good clean digital
photo(s), download them into your hard drive then burn them on a CD . Then loading them on subtalk would be a breeze !!!
If you live in nyc B&H would be a good place to buy that camera !! ( seen them at target & some k marts too ! )
Ummm..yeah, thank you department of redundancy department
Great and outstanding photos! I especially like the last one. Which locomotives are the F40's? I know the third and fourth locomotives (they both are in diesel and electric) are new and in full power service.
Those are probably the LONGEST diesel/electric locomotives that I ever saw, and I saw and heard quite a few of them at Penn Sta. NY. They are TREMENDOUSLY LOUD! (the electric ones) But I didn't mind the noise, because I am a railfan and that's the way they are made and operated.
I also saw the same exact model of them (diesel) noisily chugging along its sharp, curved radii route to Sunnyside Yard, carrying a long distance train (with diner & sleeping cars). (Speed limit ,ASP was probably 5 or 3)
Also, about the speed of your film, It's the best to use s 400 speed film (Kodak) to shoot regular photos without the necessary equipment of a professional photographer.
Zoom 800 is a higher quality, BUT it excludes direct/bright sunlight, and other glitches that might carry forth to the processing center.
I took some pictures of freight, AMTRAK, and NJT trains along Metuchen, using a 400 speed film, and they came out Great! If you want to see them, let me know! (I'll send you or anyone via e-mail)
NOTE: A train (or any object) moving at constant speed in the same direction will not mess up your photo with blurs. I have experienced this at phototaking at Metuchen station. I took my last photo on a cloudy day on an old-fashioned electric AMTRAK locomotive (the ones that are turquoise on the top front portion and have NO logo or design whatsoever. They look pretty old) moving at a good 70-75 mph. I took my last shot, and soon enough, I saw that there were NO BLURS whatsoever.
I used a 200 speed film for shooting a local CONRAIL freight train in the area, and the rail car closest to the edge of the photo came out blurred.
Great photos!
http://129.133.1.64/~mbrotzman/NH81.jpg
: )
Railfan Pete.
Great and outstanding photos! I especially like the last one. Which locomotives are the F40's? I know the third and fourth locomotives (they both are in diesel and electric) are new and in full power service.
The first two are the F40's. The latter 2 are NOT the Dual Modes you are used to in Penn Station. Those are P32's while these are P42's. Diesel only, 1000 more hp, longer and less acceleration than a cobble stone.
Also, about the speed of your film, It's the best to use s 400 speed film (Kodak) to shoot regular photos without the necessary equipment of a professional photographer.
Zoom 800 is a higher quality, BUT it excludes direct/bright sunlight, and other glitches that might carry forth to the processing center.
A little while ago my mom was about to get like 20 rolls of 200 Fuji for like 1.25 a roll so I've been working my way through that. I set out a new policy that all future film purchases will be 400 speed. If you remember my last current interest photos they were 400. I was also using a really shitty camera.
Pete, I've recently migrated to a faster film - Kodachrome 64 - simply because Kodachrome 25 is no longer readily available. Works fine, with my 1971 and 1972 vintage Canon FTbs or with my even older Exaktas. Kodak 800 film, in my opinion, is horrendous for outside photography and only marginal for indoors, and Fuji is even worse inside (equally bad outside).
And, by the way, the Amtrak units that are turquoise on the top front and have no design otherwise are the most recently rehabbed units with the newest paint scheme. Lousy, isn't it?
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
On the other hand, if these people aren't using SLRs like the FTb but instead have point and shoots with extremely slow lenses (some are f11 or even f16 wide open) an 800 speed film would be needed to get a decent exposure. I agree that 800 speed film is absolutely horrible. I rarely go faster than ISO 100 and the only time I use film that fast is when I'm taking prints instead of slides although I do have to admit that Kodachrome 200 does have its times and places for use and it isn't too bad but I don't use it for general shooting (even if it were as good as 25 or 64, it's still too expensive to use in large quantity).
-Robert King
point and shoots with extremely slow lenses (some are f11 or even f16 wide open)
Shows how out of touch I am with bottom-feeder cameras... even my point-n-shoot Minolta zoom has an f3.8 lens... didn't realize there was much beyond f4.5 out there any more.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
That came out of a conversation I was having with a clerk at one of the local camera stores. I was asking why Kodak were pitching their Max 800 stuff as an every day film when I thought that films that fast were only needed to do hand held available light photography and that's when I was told that the cheap, the very bottom feeder, point and shoot cameras had such slow lenses, the ones with zoom lenses in particular are slow making ISO 400 the minimum speed film needed to get by adequately unless below average shooting conditions exist which is where the 'benefit' of using ISO 800 film comes in. The better point and shoots still have f3.5 lenses so they don't require outrageously fast films. Then again, I find the 50mm f1.2 Canon FD lens and Kodachrome 200 work very well for existing light (quick pot-shots of subway trains and streetcars where it's darkish). Point and shoot cameras aren't something I keep track of either.
-Robert King
F - Overnight, uptown 6th ave express W4th to 34th.
W - Weekend (11-12) - Northbound trains on the N express from CI to 36.
Q - Weekend (11-12) - Southbound trains express from Prospect to Sheepshead Bay.
N - Overnight, downtown trains run over manhattan bridge from Canal to DeKalb.
Looks like the hiatus is over, we're back to the same old story.
N - Overnight, downtown trains run over manhattan bridge from Canal to DeKalb.
Oh, is that what "No downtown trains from Canal St to DeKalb Av" means? You're probably right, but I took it to mean that the N was running in two sections. Why not "Downtown trains do not stop between Canal St and DeKalb Av" or somesuch?
The thing that tipped me off was that no downtown trains were stopping between Canal and DeKalb. Thus implying uptown trains still stopped there. If that was the case, trains would have to be returning downtown by some other route, or else eventually the southern half would run out of trains and the northern half would be jammed with them. The only other route possible that would result in trains stopping at Canal and DeKalb would be the Manhattan bridge.
8-17--8-20 D to WTC both directions. (They no longer have to worry about connecting some of them to the Brooklyn half at W4th)
Does anyone have any info on the "L" GO's for this month? There are afew jobs, I hear. No info has surfaced on the MTA Advisories page.
Well, the current one has trains operating in two sections:
B'way Jct. to 8th Av
B'way Jct. to Rockaway Pkwy.
I was on an L train today entering B'way Jct. and it went over a switch beyond the Manhattan end of the station, which I think is recent.
I know a master tower for the entire concourse line is being built, I know of two locations. I dont remember which one is getting it. Bedford Park Station or at the Concourse Yard. Thanks for the help.
It was a toss up, but if they haven't changed their minds again it is supposed to be at Bedford Park. I believe they have started to wall up the mezzanine. Info may be on the MTA website.
Does anyone have a list of existing or planned master towers and their coverage?
I'm working on it and hope to have it posted within the next two weeks.
Excellent!
As of this writing (Also as of 12:00 this morning) ALL # 7 trains are now 10 cars. There about 14 R 33 singles sitting in Corona yard all coupled together.
Isn't it late for them to do that?
GET OVER IT!
It was slated to happen and now it did, you knew and I knew and I believe a good portion of this board knew it!
Regards,
Trevor Logan
www.transitalk.com
wha they are going to be scrapped? if whats the reason for shrinking the capacity?
Its funny the first day they run 10 cars they put me on the No.7 Line. It was only me 3rd time being on that line. Also the 10 cars started Friday night. I felt like a brand new C/R because I had to look at the map to announce the stops and make mental notes about what I need to know about the No.7 Line. Line like open both sides on M TK at Main St. Thats one proceedure I don't like because how can I see if all the doors are closed and locked if I'm not getting indication because the other side is still open and how can you observe both sides of the platform. Willis Point still not sure of I know on a reguler day you open on your off side going uptown but what if theres a tennis thing going on do you open both? Still have no clue I'll find out when it happens. Also remember the stop Hunters Point is not Hunts Point. Also at Times Sq do not get into that habbit of saying this is a Bronx bound train when its going to queens. When I think of Northbound I think of BRONX. Well I did good by remembering I was a No.7 train to queens. The only mess up I this was call the T/D on the Radio Flatbush instead of Main Street. "Flatbush need lights on 2tk".
I wasn't too crazy about closing down like that myself. Best thing that I can tell you is to always close down on the side that you can see best first.
OK, so what way does the No. 7 go?
I mean, the E and F, the R, N, and W are all NORTHBOUND in Manhattan, so obviously they are northbound in Queens.
But what about this poor No. 7?
The original route of the IRT was NORTH from City Hall to Grand Central, then NORTH to Times Square, and the NORTH up Broadway.
So Clearly the segment between GCS and Times Sq is NORTHBOUND, This means that the No. 7 is going SOUTHBOUND to Queens?
(Just to make life more complicated! : )
So Clearly the segment between GCS and Times Sq is NORTHBOUND, This means that the No. 7 is going SOUTHBOUND to Queens?
That's not true. Although the #7 IRT Flushing Line may be located NORTH of GCS and Times Square, doesn't mean it goes SOUTHBOUND to Queens.
The position of the IRT #7 line is from west to east (inbound) and vice versa (outbound to Manhattan). The conductors wouldn't say, NOR would it be considered a 'Southbound' 7 train. Conductors and reference do NOT use the compass directions (I forgot the name for it) for the #7 line. It's pretty obvious.
(1) The #7 line would never use logical directions, such as northbound or southbound.
(2) Conductors and reference items refer to the #7 as "Manhattan bound or To Times Square. And a Flushing bound #7 train or a train to Main St."
(3) The #7 train will not be referred to as northbound & southbound.
Hopefully this clears up any doubts.
: )
Railfan Pete.
In Control Center and dispatcher jargon, #7 trains from Main St, are considered southbound and trains from Times Square are considered northbound. All TA lines are considered northbound or southbound. Regular railroads (AMTRAK & Commuter Lines) are considered eastbound or westbound.
That's because the MTA wants to clear up any subway oddities in their directions. Even though the IRT Flushing Line is not literally northbound or southbound, the MTA just refers to as that. But the conductors would NEVER say a Northbound or a Southbound on the #7, because it literally goes from west to east.
Railfan Pete.
It is because crews are instructed not to say to the passengers "northbound" or "southbound". Rather they are instructed to say: "Manhattan bound" or "Queens bound". Repeating what I originally posted: the TA refers to all subway lines internally as northbound or southbound. Not only the Flushing line.
because even though it goes east, it has a diagonal position going north and south in queens.
Ah yes, tis a sad day for all Redbird fans now that the single units are withdrawn. The unair-conditioned cars that spawned many a rancid smelling armpit now have their majestic axiflow fans silenced !
This indeed is an emotional moment for me. Sniff Sniff !!
Bill "Newkirk"
50 years (half a century)
I'm sure most will be right back in service after Labor Day - that's only 4 weeks away.
"I'm sure most will be right back in service after Labor Day - that's only 4 weeks away."
Does that mean the rancid smelling armpits will return ?
Bill "Newkirk"
Old fert
Check the Corona yard -- if they're still laid up there, odds are they will make a curtain call on the Flushing line this fall. If they're not there, start checking Concourse or 207st for cars in the low 9300s on the scrap line.
I would imagine they'll keep a few of them around if for no other reason than for moves to CIY.
Oh, I'm sure as work trains they'll be around for a while, since the next oldest car class, the R-62s, are only now entering their "middle age" period, and the IRTs are the preferred work units, since they're the "type O" of the NYC subway system -- they can go anywhere unlike their BMT counterparts (and out of the B Division fleet, I doubt we'll be seeing too many Slant 40 work trains next decade).
No point in making any of the stainless steel cars into work trains right now, especially with the need for addition train sets to increase rush hour service on the mainline routes.
No, they'll be ready to join the fishies by then...
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
GLUG, GLUG, GLUG
Peace,
ANDEE
Good-bye, Redbirds,
Good-bye, Redbirds,
Good-bye, Redbirds,
We're going to sink you now.
Get the darn R-62s on there and you don't have to worry about it. Or, you could install AC in the single units. Wait, hold on, I just woke up! The TA installing AC on the R36s? (Dr. Evil Voice) RIIIIIIIIIIGHT!!!!!
... It's Railfan Pete. I checked your website. I can see that the lights on the R142's still run perpendicular to the seats! He. By the way, the ding-dong associated with the door closing tone on the R142's are considered to be 'Subway Doorbells', because they're not an extended 'ding-dong'. (Some door closing tones NEED to be fixed on the R46's! )
I've heard them on the R142 a couple of times, and I wasn't 100% satisfied because the sound was like a soft doorbell, but everything else, the automated voice (CLEARLY AUDIBLE!), infrastructure, and its amenities are amazing and outstanding! Bright lighting too!
: )
Railfan Pete.
>>> ... It's Railfan Pete. I checked your website. I can see that the lights on the R142's still run perpendicular to the seats! <<<
Pete;
What is this post doing in a thread about the #7 line? Try to use a little bulletin board etiquette. If you want to send a personal message, post it on Tony's site or use e-mail.
Tom
Ohhh... This reverts back to our previous SubTalk chain of discussions. Everyone was talking about how the #7 line would lose their single unit car (this was about a month ago), but at that time it was not true. The #7 ran all on 11 cars on the weekends (That's the time that I saw them. ) while we were all grumbling and complaining about them.
I'll try to go check tomorrow if the #7 trains DO really run in 10-car units now. Hopefully I won't observe at 61 St. - Woodside and count that there are still 11-cars in service.
: )
Railfan Pete.
You should see 10 Cars because me and my T/O put in a 10 car train for service and did four trips with 10 cars. I was glad they ran 10 car trains because I am not use to 11 cars. I'm sure if they where running 11 cars today me and my T/O would go downtown for leaving a car behind.
I believe it now. The #7 Flushing line was running all of its Manhattan bound trains express in Flushing - Main St. and 61 St. - Woodside today. I counted 10 cars. I also consulted some passing trains, and they also had 10 cars.
Today's afternoon trip, I rode an R36 #9661 paired with #9660 to Times Square (it had 10 cars). The A/C was fresh and the ride was great. The startups and brakes seemed to work out well, and the doors were in unison, closing and opening without slamming.
R62(A)'s are paired too. On the connecting trip, I rode a R62(A) #1 7th Av. Local train #2295 paired with #2296 on our way to Pennsylvania Station - 34 St.
It was a good experience.
: )
Railfan Pete.
The R62A's on the 1 line are linked into five car sets.
What's wrong, you don't believe all these SubTalk posters who report that the #7 line is now running 10 cars?........Friday afternoon, I was observing the PM rush from the overpass at Hunters Point. Little did I know that 10 car #7 trains would be the norm a few hours later. I hope #7 line riders bitch and moan about the mising car, that the TA will restore the 11th car ASAP. Some people actually like the single car, some people do not like air conditioning, especially if they are from a hot country, they are used to the hot! If they don't complain, will they try to get away with 10 car trains when the R62A's are transfered?
Very good point, Bill. I was thinking the same exact thing.
The singles might be next up to go "swimming."
Starting today the No.7 Line is running 10 Cars. There was a notice saying they will run 11 Cars between the AM and PM Rush Hours all other times they will only run 10 cars.
Ok. If THAT makes sense, then there's a certain blind T/O that the 7 line could use.
You're a bad, bad man. (snicker)
I know they may take her as well. I'm sure the only wrong route she can take is a line up into Corona YD in service.
I hope I don't get the No.7 that often because now that I'm PM's this will really mess me up.
Well the notice said after PM rush the No.7 will run 10 cars and the T.S.S will make the train crews aware of how many cars they have.
Dont worry, the PM TSS on the 7 line WILL make sure of that!! Trust me!!!!!
Would the doors work of either R62 or R62A are mixed with Redbirds ?
"Would the doors work of either R62 or R62A are mixed with Redbirds ?"
Don't know for sure, but the TA isn't about to mix that kind of equipment no matter what.
Bill "Newkirk"
50 years (half a century)
True, but if they could, the first 30 R62A's on the Flushing need not be entire trainsets, but be Livonia singles to replace the R33S.
"True, but if they could, the first 30 R62A's on the Flushing need not be entire trainsets, but be Livonia singles to replace the R33S."
Can't answer that, sounds like a job for SubTalk's technical maven, Train Dude.'
Bill "Newkirk"
Now hold it. That makes no sense whatsoever. Number 1, that requires a lot of drilling and lots of additional personell. Secondly, every train on the #7 line would have to go to Corona Yard to accomplish this. That's too many additional moves!
Thats the way I understood the notice. I may have mis-read it. If I find the notice again I'll repost the information if its wrong.
Im about to change my handle you will see what it is.
Okay so today is my birthday. I reached the half century mark in one piece. It seems like only yesterday I was marveling about reaching 25 years (1/4 century).
When I was born, the R-15s were only a year old ! WOW!!
Now I know how Sea Beach Fred feels! I killed the idea of going to the Newkirk Ave station (Q) today with a birthday Twinkie. But 50 candles stuck in it and the muggy weather would have melted that Twinkie into a pile of sponge cake.
I'm going to celebrate my birthday with a friend next week at HOOTERS !
Bill "Newkirk"
50 years (half century)
Happy Birthday and welcome to the "over 50" club!
Same here Bill. Here's hoping for another 50 for you. Take care and have a great day,
Happy Birthday!
Don't worry, I should be able to reach the club in, oh, 31 years!
- Jose
Oh, you kid!!!! Don't rub it in to this soon to be 61 year old warhorse.
Gongrats on 50.
I was born in the same year as the R10s : )
The R1-9s are still my favorites, rode on them as a kid when Dad would bring me into the city for a day. (This was back in the early 60's.
He told me that the IND had the newest and best equipment, but the fact is that he hadn't been on the BMT or the IND for years, and I thought thoes R27s were simply the cat's meow.
Makes you feel old to see all of those cars gone.
Elias
Happy Birthday!!!!!!!Enjoy the headlights! (At Hooters)
Happy Birthday from a fellow lensman to another.
A very nice man i met him at the coney island yards when south ferry also called me and told me about the nice tour there with
Mark W & Mr. mike hanna our tour leader etc..@ right on south ferry !!
Indeeeeeeeeeeeeed!!!
this november 3 2001 i will be 50 too !! cant believe it !!
Happy Birthday!!
When I was born, the R-32s were just being delivered.
Nearly 40 years later, they're still running! I hope I'm in as good shape as they are!!
--Mark
Happy Burthda!!
I'll be a quarter century and 7 years old come aug 8th..
From one Bill to another Bill: Happy Birthday! At least you always will be a year-and-a-half older than me! By the way, now you are eligable to join the AARP and more importantly, get a senior citizen discount at lots of stores!
Congratulations Bill. From a 05/03/01 half-century model.
--Harry
Happy Birthday, Bill.
Peace,
ANDEE
Happy Birthday.
The 18-49 age group bids you farewell.
Happy Brithday Bill!!!!
Thanks for all the great calendars the past few years, they've brought back quite a few memories of growing up in the greatest city in the world!!
And I don't feel too bad now, I hit that half-century mark last December!
You've got a decade to go to catch up to me and don't be in any hurry to do so. But one thing I have found out and Newkirk should be elated. Bill, you have a lot of fans on this site. The best of everything to you.
Happy Birthday, Bill.
I'm not much behind you. When I was born, the R32's were just being phased into service.
Oh well. I was born when the last R9's were only a few years old [l943]. Had thegood fortune of seeing almost all the first generation traction equipment still in service, of course especially the beloved High-V's and Low-V's.
A touch of steam, on rails and quite a bit of it on water [ferries and excursion steamers], glad I had a chance to be a part of it.
Of course it doesn't help considering how few years comparatively are left and how fast they disappear the older you get.
Happy birthday bill...enjoy the view at Hooters. Being 50 doesn't mean it's over...it's all in the mind.
And Bill ... remember those two most important words on a night out ... "TAKE OUT!" Heh.
Happy Birthday Bill. Hve fun at HOOTERS!!!!
happy birthday weclome to the 50's club
Happy Belated Birthday, Bill!
When I turned 50 I really began to feel old because I was given a tee shirt that said..
"Fifty Isn't Old If You Are A Tree"
If it's any consolation to you, I've had that tee shirt 15 years last Wednesday!
You're only as old as you feel!
Happy Birthday from one member of the Howdy Doody generation to another.
Happy Birthday Bill. Sniff...Sniff. . 50 may be old, but you have another generation ahead of you! Until the R62(A)'s retire out, you'll see what's next.
I was born a while after the Pneumatic Shop was built (guess when).
Also, I checked and counted 4 IRT Flushing line trains, sniff..., and they have finally removed the last single-unit cars from them. Guess the old times are over.
: |
Railfan Pete.
happy birthday, you old geezer!
-Hank
Happy Birthday, Bill.
I'll be joining the club in early November (pray for us all).
Hooters?
By the time you put on a few more years, you will have to be more careful. Try one hooter one night, then hey some recover time before you try another...
Many happy returns!
Happy Birthday, Bill! Ain't senior citizen discounts great? :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
The R-10s were only about 2 to 3 years old at the time you born. They still had all of the original equipment on the IRT, BMT and IND divisions. The Third Avenue El in Manhattan was still in operation. The was no Chrystie Street connection. A lot has changed over the last 50 years and who know what will come next. Happy Birthday Bill "Newkirk"
#3 West End Jeff, formerly BMTJeff
I noticed something strange at the Grand Army Plaza IRT station today. (I am sure that what I noticed has been going on for some time; I just have not spent much time at that station.)
There are signs above the stairways which direct people to the "north side" and the "south side" of Flatbush Ave. This is odd because Flatbush Ave. is a N-S street, and so should presumably have an "east side" and a "west side".
It is true that Flatbush Ave. runs diagonally for much of its length, being truly N-S for only its middle segment in the Ebbets Field area. Still, I believe it is officially N-S. Just a few blocks away from the Grand Army Plaza station, there is a sign on the street which directs cars from Plaza Street West onto southbound Flatbush Ave.
Is Grand Army Plaza the only station whose signs refer to Flatbush Ave. this way? What does it say on the signs above the stairs leading out of the other stations on Flatbush Ave.? I guess that would be Nevins and Bergen on the IRT, 7th Ave. on the D -- uh, the Q, the large Atlantic Ave. station, and DeKalb Ave. (Oh, I forgot about the end of the 2 line at Brooklyn College.)
Assuming that Flatbush Ave. is indeed officially N-S, then I find the signs in the Grand Army Plaza station very strange, particularly in light of my experience with Queens Blvd.
For anyone who is south of the LIE, Queens Blvd. looks and acts like a N-S street. However, it is officially an E-W street. So, the signs on the subway exits on Queens Blvd. direct people to the "north side" and the "south side" of the street. The "official" -- and not the actual -- orientation of the street determines what is on the signs in those subway stations.
Whenever I have given directions to people which entail their getting off at any of the IND stations on Queens Blvd. between Woodhaven Blvd. and Van Wyck Blvd., I have advised them that "north side" and "south side" should be understood to mean "northBOUND side" and "southBOUND side". Many people have mentionted to me how helpful this little tidbit was in helping them to get their bearings.
What I am saying is this: if there is anyplace in the subway where the signs ought to refer to the "true" as opposed to the "official" orientation of a street above, it is on Queens Blvd. That street's "feel" as a N-S street is unmistakable. In fact, during my brief, month-long career as a livery cab driver, I must have radioed my position as "going north on QB" or "going south on QB" at least once a day, only to be angrily "corrected" by a dispatcher each time ("WHADDAYA MEAN 'NORTH'?!").
I had always just assumed that the signs in the subway must refer only to the "official" orientation of the street. Yet the signs at the Grand Army Plaza station would indicate that this is not necessarily the case.
So, if "official" orientation can be ignored on Flatbush Ave., then the same thing can be done on Queens Blvd. I propose that exit signs in stations between Woodhaven Blvd. and Van Wyck Blvd. should read "east side" and "west side" (or, even better, "northbound side" and "southbound side").
Of course, north (or west) of the Woodhaven Blvd. staton, Queens Blvd. does feel like an E-W street. So, the single IND station there (as well as the several IRT stations farther up) could keep their signs which say "north side" and "south side".
Ferdinand Cesarano
Queens Blvd. runs east-west for most of it's stretch, so describing its sides as north and south makes sense.
Queens Blvd. runs east-west for most of it's stretch, so describing its sides as north and south makes sense.
It doesn't make sense south of the LIE.
As I said in my original post, since Flatbush Ave. -- officially a N-S street -- is described in at least one location as having a "north side" and a "south side", then Queens Blvd. -- officially an E-W street -- ought to be described south of the LIE as having an "east (or "northbound") side" and a "west (or "southbound") side".
Ferdinand Cesarano
I'd say that Grand Av. is where Queens Blvd takes on the feel of N-S. There is a bend there, where it goes from the more E-W alignment of Queensboro Bridge and turns a bit more southward. The Queens Mall definitely looks like it's on the east side of a street, not the north side (except for the LIE). Also helpind give it the N-S feel is that the E-W avenues (71st-Continental, etc) have turned bit and are almost paralle (or on the s/w side, are parallel) to Queens Blvd.
When do you think the TA will stop calling the South Side Bridge changes "contruction" and "new services." I'm just wondering when the new configuration will become the norm. I like the new configuration better than the old.
They will definitely stop when there are newer new services, since these will become old services in comparison. Thus, definitely by November.
I predict September 1st as the day the passengers get fed up and storm the command center demanding they cease and decist.
It'll become the norm when construction gets delayed indefinitely, or they realize that they can't use the North side of the bridge anymore.
If you think about it, this IS the old service pattern prior to Chrystie Street in 1967, just minus trains using the Nassau Street loop.
What is left of the old Nassau Loop service is provided - at least 1/2 of it, by M trains that are underutilized during midday because they go through the Montague Street tunnel and then up Nassau Street to the Willy B instead of taking the loop, south side of the bridge, and then DeKalb, or the other way around.
I think 50 years ago it was the Culver trains that primarily used the South Side of the bridge and the Nassau Street loop. Instead of M trains terminating at Bay Parkway, they could be terminating at Kings Highway if they didn't do away with the Culver between 9th and Ditmas.
That post was working before not it's not working! What happin? I end up getting this!
"An error has occured
The server could not find the message (247142) you requested. Perhaps it has been expired or deleted, or you followed a broken link."
What happin?
Perhaps it was deleted. Maybe you have some idea why.
I came across a posting that had the same message that you came across. The topic was "2nd Av. Subway Q & A" (Something like that.) I try to go to the First in Thread option, but it says :
"An error has occured
The server could not find the message (247142) you requested. Perhaps it has been expired or deleted, or you followed a broken link."
I wonder what it was.
Railfan Pete.
I have had a post disappear on occasion.
#3 West End Jeff, formerly BMTJeff
I was coming home at my home station (Metuchen) in NJ, and on the 8:33PM train from New York to Trenton, I spotted:
2 diesel (most likely Amtrak) work trains in single units.
One was spotted in the Rahway station area, and another passing by at Metuchen. (unfortunately I didn't get to see it because the NJT train at the southbound platform was blocking the view.)
Is anyone able (with knowledge) to tell me what these two diesel trains were doing (in single units each) and where it was headed? where it was from? etc...
The time of the oddity was from around 09:10 - 09:17PM.
Another question:
Where do NJT and Amtrak diesel locomotives go to fuel their diesel tanks? Each locomotive (based on GP-40-FH-2 model) carries a full-tank capacity of 2,500 gallons. I'm sure those LONG F-40's (?) carry much more in just one locomotive.
Answers and responses will be greatly appreciated.
: )
Railfan Pete.
NJT would fuel theirs in the Meaddows engine facility. Amtrak probably has a small Fuel pad in Sunnyside and there's a big one at the Race St. Engine Terminal in philly.
Greetings, all...
I'm in the process of reserving a block of rooms at the Holiday Inn Mart Plaza (adjacent to the Merchandise Mart) for Labor Day weekend. The hotel is in a very conveneint location for our purposes, as you can walk indoors to the Merchandise Mart stop on the Brown / Purple Lines at the other end of the Merchandise Mart. It's also very close to many downtown attractions in the Loop and River North, and because it sits on top of the Apparel Mart building, almost all the rooms should have pretty incredible views.
The room rate will be $125 per night, single or double. That's a little more than I was hoping, but that's about the best we're able to do for a downtown hotel large enough to have a block of rooms available for us. (Rooms out near O'Hare aren't much cheaper, and wouldn't be worth the inconvenience of being 45 minutes away from downtown. But if you really want to stay near O'Hare, be my guest.) I'll have a block of 20 rooms available, and it will be up to you to reserve your room BEFORE AUGUST 17th in order to get the group rate. After August 17th, room availability may be limited, and you will pay the standard rate. I still need to fax a form back to the hotel on Monday before they'll finalize our reservations, but here's their contact information anyway:
HOLIDAY INN MART PLAZA
350 North Orleans
(312) 836-5000
Group rate for "SubTalk Field Trip"
IMPORTANT: Make your reservations after Monday, August 6th but before Friday, August 17th. Call between the hours of 7:00 AM and 6:00 PM, and be sure to mention the group name "SubTalk Field Trip."
If you want a room to yourself, simply make your reservation as such. If you need to share a room with one or two other people, I encourage you to get in contact with the people you're interested in sharing with and make arrangements that way. If you can't find anybody to share a room with, send me an e-mail before next Friday (August 10th) and explain your situation and give your contact info. That weekend I'll send out a list of who all is looking for a roomie, and it will be up to you to contact each other after that.
DIRECTIONS TO THE HOTEL:
From O'Hare: From Terminals 1, 2, or 3, follow the signs that say "Trains to City". These will lead you to the Blue Line terminal under the parking garage. (I don't think we'll have any people arriving on international flights, but just in case, take the airport people-mover train from Terminal 5 to Terminal 3.) Once on the Blue Line, sit back and enjoy the ride. Exit the train at Clark / Lake and transfer to the Brown Line (Ravenswood) upstairs. The destination sign of the train should be say "Kimball." Ride the train across the river and exit at the first stop, which will be Merchandise Mart. Use the crossover and enter the building. Stay on the second floor, and walk all the way down to the other end of the building and cross the skywalk over Orleans Street to the Apparel Mart building. You should then see signs for the Holiday Inn. Take the elevators up to the lobby level.
From Midway: Follow the signs to the CTA Orange Line and take the train all the way into the Loop. Exit the train at Clark / Lake, cross over the tracks, and then grab the Brown Line train (it should say "Kimball" on the destination sign) to the Mart. Then follow the directions above to get to the hotel.
From Union Station (for you true railfans): From the Amtrak baggage claim area, turn right as you exit the baggage claim area and walk past the Metra ticket windows. The ramp will curve down toward the right, and you should see some Metra platforms on your left at the bottom of the ramp. Keep to the right, and take the escalators up to the mezzanine level, and then the next set of escalators up to the Adams Street entrance. Walk across the river on Adams and keep going until you get to Orleans. Turn left on Orleans and walk the next several blocks until you cross the river again. The hotel will be on the left side once you cross the river. Or, you can grab a taxi from Union Station and save some energy.
BY CAR: If you're driving, the hotel is on Orleans just north of the river. Parking at the hotel is $18 a day, with in/out privileges.
If the room cost is an issue, you may be able to find rooms for as low as $85 a night in some smaller downtown hotels. Check www.travelocity.com for the lowest available rates. You may also be able to find even lower rates outside of downtown, but you'll have to allow for some extra travel time to meet with the rest of the group. Be sure your hotel is within easy walking distance to an "L" stop that has decent weekend / holiday service (Red, Brown or Blue lines are your best bets).
Here are some other places worth considering:
CHICAGO LODGE
920 West Foster (Up in Edgewater, but only a half-block away from my apartment)
(773) 334-5600
CASS HOTEL
640 North Wabash
(312) 787-4030
CLUB QUARTERS (as mentioned by Bill Steil)
111 West Adams
(312) 214-6400
At least one person inquired about staying at a youth hostel. Here's one located in the beautiful Lincoln Park neighborhood, about a 10-minute walk from the Red Line stop at Fullerton:
ARLINGTON HOUSE
616 West Arlington
(773) 929-5380
INTINERARY (subject to change):
Friday, August 31st:
Meet in the Great Hall of Union Station at 5:30 PM, at the TV monitors in the center of the hall.
Metra Heritage Corridor train to Joliet (departs Union Station at 6:18 PM)
Metra Rock Island train back to city (arrives LaSalle Street Station at 7:43 PM)
Walk over to Sears Tower Skydeck, meet with any late arrivals in the Skydeck lobby at 8:00 PM.
Saturday, September 1st:
Railfan Day at Illinois Railway Museum! (Meet in the hotel lobby at 8:00 AM. For those who are driving and can offer rides, street parking near the hotel shouldn't be a problem on a Saturday morning.)
Return to city in the evening for dinner and sightseeing / railfanning on the "L"
Possible late night of clubbing for those who are interested.
Sunday, September 2nd:
Meet at Randolph Street Station waiting area at 10:00 AM
Metra Electric train to Kensington (departs Randolph Street Station at 10:30 AM)
South Shore train back to downtown (arrives Randolph Street Station at 1:00 PM)
Railfanning on the "L" rest of the day
Get-together at my apartment sometime in the evening
Monday, September 3rd:
More sightseeing / railfanning on the "L"
Say goodbye, check-out, return to wherever you came from.
MORE INPORTANT INFO: For the trip out to IRM, I need to know who all will have a car and how many people you can carry (not including yourself). This way hopefully I'll be able to tell wether or not we'll need to rent some sort of van.
That's it for now...
-- David
Chicago, IL
Sounds like this is bound to be one helluva good time!
My CAPS off to you, Mr. David Cole!!!
Cheers from the Ferry!
Hey, I'm a working member at IRM and I would be happy to show some of you Subtalkers around the museum - especially the Electric Car Department, which is where I work. Is there any way that I would be able to recognize this group, or have you already set up a charter? Of course, if you're simply not looking for a guide, that's fine too!
We'd be happy to have you (or anybody else from IRM) show us around. Thanks for the offer!! You'll probably recognize us as a bunch of (mostly) middle-aged guys taking lots of photos and trying not to drool too much on the exhibits. We'll probably arrive on the grounds fairly early in the day. If you want to meet us at a specific time and place, just let me know.
BTW, I'm becomming more involved at the Electric Car Shop out there myself. The past two Saturdays I've been working with Pete (I forget his last name -- he works at the CTA tower at Armitage) on the CTA 1-50 series cars, especially car 30.
In fact, we took cars 30 and 41 out for a spin on the main line last weekend, and I got some time at the controller of car 30. Upon reading the history of car 30, it turns out there's a 1 in 3 chance that car was the first "L" car I ever rode in upon moving to Chicago eight years ago this month. I parked my car at the Skokie Swift lot on my first-ever trip to the Loop in 1993, and caught one of the 1-50 series cars to Howard. As it turns out, car 30 was one of only three of those cars operating on the Skokie Swift at that time.
How many railfans can say there's a 1 in 3 chance that they've actually been at the controller of the first NYCTA subway car they've ever ridden on? :-)
-- David
Chicago, IL
From Union Station (for you true railfans): ...Walk across the river on Adams and keep going until you get to Orleans. Turn left on Orleans and walk the next several blocks until you cross the river again...
I've been kindly informed by a knowledgeable Chicagoan that Adams does not intersect with Orleans in the Loop. (oops!) Walk across the river on Adams and keep going until you get to FRANKLIN. Turn left on Franklin and walk the next several blocks until you cross the river again, at which point Franklin become Orleans.
You all would have found the hotel sooner or later. :-)
-- David
Chicago, IL
According to the NICTD schedule, South Shore trains do not board passengers heading downtown from Kensington/115th to Randolph. Inbound passengers must board Metra trains for trips downtown. You may want to tweak your schedule a bit to accomodate this.
Here's a link to the schedule:
http://www.nictd.com/schedule/weekendwestbound.html
-Jason
I looked at the schedule before I set up the times, and it says "Westbound trains will NOT board passengers between Kensington and Randolph St," which I understand to mean that people can board at Kensington but not any of the stations inbound from there.
If that's not the case, then I guess we'd have to make other plans, since there would be no other way to ride Metra in one direction and the South Shore for the return trip, or vice-versa.
-- David
Chicago, IL
I looked at the schedule before I set up the times, and it says "Westbound trains will NOT board passengers between Kensington and Randolph St," which I understand to mean that people can board at Kensington but not any of the stations inbound from there.
Unfortunately, what that translates into is that you can't board westbound AT Kensington either. "Between" in commuter RR lingo tends to have an understood "and including" with it.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Thanks for the info. Looks like we'll probably just take a quick ride on the Metra Electric and maybe take a walk around the South Shore platforms at Randolph Street, depending on what the group is in the mood for.
-- David
Chicago, IL
I think this is because of the fact that NICTD's track access agreement stipulates that it does not rob IC Electric for passengers. This means NICTD trains aren't allowed to pick up passengers where Metra does provide a service. I doubt any NICTD conductors would complain if you boarded the train with Metra tickets (provided you don't overcrowd the train), since NICTD isn't allowed to sell you a ticket for that journey. That said, I've never tried to do this myself. If you board a Metra train with a NICTD ticket, I could see them having a fit.
Lexcie
There's a third option from Union Station other than walking and taking a cab: cross the river, head east on Adams or Jackson, and when you get to Wells (two blocks past the river), get on the L at Quincy, which is between Adams and Jackson. Board a Brown Line train, take a nice ride around most of the Loop, and get off at Merchandise Mart station. The hotel is at the opposite end of the Merchandise Mart from the L station, but the L station leads directly into the Mart and the hotel is connected to the Mart by a skybridge. That means that if you travel this way with baggage, you'll have to walk it up the stairs at Quincy, but not at Merchandise Mart.
True. Or if they arrive during rush hour they can grab a Purple Line train at Quincy and have a straight shot to the Mart, making only one stop in between. But rush hour is not the time to be dragging luggage onto the L. :-)
-- David
Chicago, IL
Greetings, all...
In order to help me plan this weekend, I need some help from you. What I need is an e-mail from you, sent to DavidCole@NthWard.com with the following information:
YOUR NAME (first and last)
YOUR SUBTALK HANDLE (if applicable)
HOW WILL YOU BE TRAVELLING TO CHICAGO? (plane, train, automobile)
IF DRIVING, HOW MANY PASSENGERS CAN YOU CARRY?
WHEN WILL YOU BE ARRIVING? (be as specific as possible)
WHERE WILL YOU BE STAYING?
Optional: WHAT ARE YOU MOST INTERESTED IN SEEING? (The "L", Metra, IRM, etc.)
Optional: ANY ADDITIONAL COMMENTS / CONCERNS
Again, please send this information to me via e-mail. If you post it to SubTalk as a response, there's no guarantee I'll see it.
IMPORTANT: IF I DON'T GET A RESPONSE FROM YOU BY THIS SUNDAY, AUGUST 12th, I WILL ASSUME YOU'RE NOT COMING!
If you don't have your travel plans 100% finalized yet but still plan on coming, that's fine, but I still need a response from you.
This information will assist with important aspects of the weekend, including:
Getting a general idea of how many people we should be waiting for Friday evening
Determining whether or not we need to charter a van or bus to IRM
Seeing if we have enough people to get discounted admission to IRM
Making meal reservations if necessary
Seeing if my apartment is physically large enough to host everybody
So needless to say, it's crucial that I get a response from everybody who is planning on going on the trip. This is particularly important for planning transportation to and from IRM; I can't afford to reserve a van or bus that we don't need, but I also don't want to be stuck with 30 people trying to fit into my Saturn.
See SubTalk posting 247360 for important information about lodging, directions, and a tentative itinerary.
Your taking a few seconds to do this is greatly appreciated, and will help make this a great weekend for everybody. Thanks in advance!
-- David
Chicago, IL
For those of you planning on staying at the Holiday Inn Mart Plaza, keep in mind that tomorrow (Friday, August 17th) is the last day to make reservations under the "SubTalk Field Trip" group rate. See the "Important Information" posting above for more lodging info.
Also, if you haven't already done so, I need the following information from those who plan on going (Yes, even from those of you who are blessed enough to already live here in Chicago):
YOUR NAME (first and last)
YOUR SUBTALK HANDLE (if applicable)
HOW WILL YOU BE TRAVELLING TO CHICAGO? (plane, train, automobile, already live here)
IF DRIVING, HOW MANY PASSENGERS CAN YOU CARRY?
WHEN WILL YOU BE ARRIVING? (be as specific as possible)
WHERE WILL YOU BE STAYING?
Optional: WHAT ARE YOU MOST INTERESTED IN SEEING? (The "L", Metra, IRM, etc.)
Optional: ANY ADDITIONAL COMMENTS / CONCERNS
E-mail your RSVP to me at DavidCole@NthWard.com. We won't banish you from the group if you show up without confirming your attendance, but keep in mind that in the rare possibility of a shortage of rides out to IRM, those who have RSVP'ed will take priority over those who haven't.
Okay folks, so here's the new-and-improved itinerary for the Chicago Field Trip. THIS OVERRIDES THE PREVIOUS OLD-AND-INFERIOR ITINERARY. There's a couple reasons for the changes:
1) The Metra / South Shore trip wouldn't have worked out because there's no easy way to take one outbound and the other inbound. Besides, most people seem more interested in the CTA anyway.
2) I'm able to take Friday off from work and several people will be arriving early in the afternoon, giving us a little more time to play with.
3) The Douglas "L", the Sokie Swift, and the Evanston Express don't run on weekends or holidays. We'll try to fit them in on Friday afternoon/evening instead of going to Joilet on Metra.
Also, I decided that the Great Hall at Union Station will serve as a good "base of operations", since people will be staying overnight at a number of places (including those of us who actually live in Chicagoland). We'll start each day by meeting at the TV monitors smack in the center of the hall. I'll also have my cell phone with me the whole weekend. I'll send my number out via e-mail to those who have RSVP'ed.
So, here it is again. Keep in mind this isn't necessarily carved in stone; there's still plenty of flexibility to see various things (and eat at various places) depending on what the group is in the mood for.
INTINERARY (subject to change):
Friday, August 31st:
3:00 PM: Meet in the Great Hall of Union Station. Walk over to Quincy "L" stop, ride the Evanston Express and Skokie Swift, return to downtown.
5:30 PM: Meet any latecomers in the Great Hall of Union Station.
Walk to Blue Line stop at Clinton, ride the Douglas "L", return downtown
Dinner at Greek Islands
Visit Sears Tower Skydeck
Saturday, September 1st:
7:00 AM: Meet in the Great Hall. Walk over to Lou Mitchell's for breakfast.
8:30 AM: Depart for Railfan Day at Illinois Railway Museum! (For those who are driving and can offer rides, street parking near Union Station shouldn't be a problem on a Saturday morning.)
12:00 PM: Meet at Depot Street trolley stop for a guided tour by IRM board member and fellow SubTalker Frank Hicks
Return to city whenever we run out of things to do at IRM or get kicked out, whichever comes first.
Dinner at Tedino's, an excellent pizzeria close to my apartment.
Get-together at my apartment in Edgewater.
Sunday, September 2nd:
Meet in the Union Station Great Hall at 10:00 AM
Railfanning on the "L" -- Specific routes to be decided by group.
Possible short trip on Metra Electric if there's interest.
Dinner at a fine local resturant to be decided.
Monday, September 3rd:
Meet in the Union Station Great Hall at 10:00 AM
More sightseeing / railfanning on the "L"
Say goodbye, check-out, return to wherever you came from.
That's it for now... Only two more weeks! As always, let me know if you have any questions.
-- David
Chicago, IL
Sorry I'm not up on my railroad abbreviations, but by IRM, are you talking about going to the Railway museum in Union, Illinois? If so, I live only about 10 minutes from there! How many people do you expect to be in your party? Sadly I won't be able to do any of the other stuff because that is the weekend of the Taste of Melrose Park...and I usually spend all weekend there. It is the best of the "Taste's" in the Chicago area.
David or anyone else, if you are going to Union, I can help you out if you have any questions.
Yes, IRM = Illinois Railway Museum. You're more than welcome to hook up with us at the museum. I'm not sure exactly we'll be arriving there, but I'd guess about 10:00 AM or so (assuming we leave downtown at 8:30 and spend 90 minutes on the road). However, at noon we'll be meeting with Frank Hicks at the Depot Street trolley stop. That might be the best time to hook up with us; any other time just look for a bunch of guys who seem to be having way too much fun playing with trains. :-)
-- David
Chicago, IL
<< Yes, IRM = Illinois Railway Museum. You're more than welcome to hook up with us at the museum. I'm not sure exactly we'll be arriving there, but I'd guess about 10:00 AM or so (assuming we leave downtown at 8:30 and spend 90 minutes on the road). >>
Shouldn't take much more than an hour from downtown.
90 minutes is a pretty generous estimate, but better safe than sorry. I usually go there in the early afternoons, and traffic on the outbound Kennedy is a bitch as far as O'Hare, plus some pockets of heavy traffic on the Northwest Tollway as far as Route 53. Must be everybody heading to Woodfield Mall or IKEA for the day. It usually takes me about an hour to get to IRM from my place, but I live a few miles north of downtown. The traffic should be much lighter that early in the morning, but all it takes is one wreck or stalled car to turn the expressway into a parking lot.
-- David
Chicago, IL
BTW, as per your earlier post (with the revised itenerary), I am most definitely not a board member! I don't want to get in trouble here by impersonating one! However, I do know most of the nooks and crannies of IRM, especially the Electric Car Department.
Also, meeting at noon at Depot Street is fine; I had thought we were meeting somewhere else, so I'm glad you mentioned this. If there's any other way I can help, just let me know.
Joe P: you're a railfan who lives just minutes from IRM and you don't know much about the Museum? Shame!!
8-)
I haven't been there in about 10 years, maybe even longer. When I was a kid I must have been there at least a hundred times with my dad, but that was so long ago it is kind of hazy. I think my dad used to be a member or something because he had a caledar hanging in his office from the place. I remember every spring I would look at the color codes and pick the dates I wanted to go. I still go Union a few times a year to go to the delicious buffet at the Wild West Town. If you've ever eaten there, you know what I'm talking about!
The reason I wasn't positive about what IRM stood for is because (which is probably the same for you as a kid) when I was a kid, there was nothing else of interest to me within about 50 miles. So my dad and I just called it "The Museum".
Oops, I stand corrected. Since you were on your way to the board meeting last weekend, I just assumed you were on the board. My mistake.
-- David
Chicago, IL
Last Sunday I was at Rockaway Park to board the (S) Rockaway Park shuttle to shoot the D-Types running on the special. I noticed eight car R-44s on the shuttle. People leaving Rockaway Park could have filled one of those eight cars.
Why doesn't the TA run a four car consist on the Shuttle ? Looks like some sort of overkill.
Bill "Newkirk"
They run 8 cars in the summer for the beach crowrds. Then back to four cars at night.
Yup, and until 2 years ago, when C service was expanded to weekends in Brooklyn, this line ran all the way to Euclid Ave. I believe it's the last of any "seasonal" service changes by the TA in it's history.
The shuttle has not run to euclid in over 3 years.
Why don't they run it to Rockaway Blvd? At least then transfer will be available to / from the Lefferts trains as well. They could run to Rockaway Blvd, discharge, and run lite to 80st where they will relay on the middle track (5/6 track).
They have a relay track north of Broad Channel
I know that. Back in the day they used to turn trains at Euclid Ave on summer weekends so that Rockaway Park customers would have access to both A trains. S trains turned in the express tracks while the A used the local tracks. When the C got extened to Euclid on Weekends, the A had to use the express tracks while the C used the local, thereby eliminating the possibility of turning the S there. I'm suggesting they turn at 80st middle so that Rockaways customers on summer weekends get the same service increase they used to get before the C was extended to Euclid.
Shuttles and A's from Mott Ave. are carefully scheduled to minimize the wait a shuttle passanger would have to deal with at Broad Channel anyway.
It did in 1998, the last summer of weekend local-only A service on Fulton St. Expanded C/A express service was introduced shortly after the Williamsburgh bridge closure in 5/99. Shuttle service to Euclid on weekends in the summer then became impossible.
In the skip stop procedure do trains run quickly by the stops they skip or do they slow to 15mph?
They slow down.
Peace,
ANDEE
MOST of the time they slow down. I've been on some skip-stop J/Z trains where the T.O. just flys right by the station at more than 15 MPH.
The trains slow down during a skip stop procedure.
TA Rule 39i states:
The train will enter the station being bypassed at the normal speed for the area: The train operator will then begin to decelerate gradually, ensuring that the train does not go faster than fifteen (15) miles per hour as it leaves the station. The tain operator must blow the horn or whistle at the entering and leaving end of the station.
The horn is (usually) blown on battery runs, but I've never heard the horn used in regular skip-stop (1/9 and J/Z) service.
Most J/Z trains bypass stations like say cypress hills very slowly because they have those red over white signals. some timer signals between Cresent street and Cypress hills are set at 6 seconds according to J motormen i know. however on the A division, i have never seen a Motorman slow down to bypass a station unless he absolutely has 2. On a northbound 1 train, i remember a Motorman skipping 145, making his next stop 157. He blew thru 145, clear signal after getting out, so he didn't touch his brake handle one time, then blew his horn, and that is it. I hate to say it, Most motormen do not follow this rule unless there is a timer enforcing it.
P.S i like it Long island Railroad on Long beach branch trains when they bypass rosedale they don't slow down a bit! they blow their horns(Not all of then do) ansd go right through. this is why LIRR cautions people from standing at edge of platforms, from turbulence of passing trains............
On a northbound 1 train, i remember a Motorman skipping 145, making his next stop 157. He blew thru 145, clear signal after getting out, so he didn't touch his brake handle one time, then blew his horn, and that is it.
And you must have felt really lucky! There is a switch north of 145 St on the northbound that is posted at 20 mph and most of us take it at 14 so we don't put the train on the ground. Anyone who blew through 145 St without touching the brake is a certified jacka$$ and should be removed from service.
I just put up my Second Avenue Plan for the web it is around 25 pages in length. It is the X7 draft, so please read it or some of it then pound away with the comments. I want people when reading it to find the mistakes or parts that dont make sense. Cause I want the next draft to be perfect that I and rail fans know will be great. So the link is http://www.beaconschool.org/~crivera/2001secondplan/index.html then click on the Main Plan on the links page, or in the part where Imn the X7 draft area.
Christopher Rivera
This will be very exciting, if it were to be built. Just out of curiousity, i say take it to the project planners at the MTA and see what they think of it. And if they were to build all of this, how long do you think it will take to build this? I would guess 20 or so years.
No, I projected 10 to 12 years. It took 4 years to build the IRT. Why would 1 trunk line take so much time? Today there is alot of red tape and thats what makes a project take a long time. I plan to cut the red tape quickly to aviod the politics. So if I make great strides then maybe by 2003-2005 constuction will begin and by 2015-2017 it will be totally completed. But there can be very little politcs, they will slow it down thats why if everything gets accepted I will push for complete/ quick constuction and a bonus if completed before the deadline.
Cheaper and quicker to build a time machine and get some of the 1904 workers here. They could probably do it in 4 years without 145 coffee breaks, lawsuits for stubbed toes, 6 month vacations, workers comp and all the other Union nonsense. Don't get me wrong. We need unions, but the ones that exist today are a bit ridiculous.
That plan would work only if the 1904 workers could work under 1904 work rules.
David
And if they agree to die at 1904 rates.
Tony, if we build a time machine, who needs the Second Avenue Subway?
We just bump off Hyland in 1900, he never becomes Mayor and the IND doens't get built, the el's don't come down and the IRT & BMT get a 10 cent fare that keeps them out of bankruptcy.
What's neat is that if you bump Hylan off with a gun that doesn't exist in 1904, you can do it in broad daylight in view of 500 witnesses. You zip back to 2001, the cops have a dead body in the morgue with a bullet in it from a gun that doesn't exist and history changes. Since Hylan is a key point in time, history changes from 1900 on. And, only you know what really happened.
Wouldn't that be a paradox?
Wouldn't that be a paradox?
No, that would be what you call two physicians.
Cheers,
PJ Dougherty
Publisher, Tracks of the NYC Subway
I guess that I have watched Milleniumtoo often!
Not necessarily. The neat thing about time travel is that if you start in 2001 and go back to, say 1900, you can bring anything with you that you have in 2001. Things like digital watches and cameras tend to attract attention, since they don't yet exist, along with synthetic clothing. If you go back, you dress for the destination year. Things like guns can be hidden in clothes, both in 2001 and 1900. A bullet fired from a gun made in 2000 will kill as surely as a Colt .45 that was made in 1897.
Imagine, you bump off Hylan, the cops have a body in the morgue with a bullet in it that can't possibly exist. The body is, of course, very dead.
It may be a paradox, but that's what time travel does. Geordie LaForge once said "Time Travel gives me a nosebleed."
This is still a paradox. You left from the Hylan was the mayor world, but returned to the Hylan died in 1900 world. Would this change the past, or is the past unchangeable? If the first one, why did you bother to leave to kill Hylan, what motivation would you have? Where would you know that it was you? If the latter, then what about the Dan Lawrence of the second world, would he be in conflict with you?
All difficult questions.
You need to fully understand time travel. If you have access to a time machine (see H.G. Wells), you can travel to any time. If you go to the past, you (the late 20th Century born American Pig) can do anything you set your mind to, including bumping off Hylan before he becomes Mayor. If you kill him in 1900, history changes from that instant on. BTW nobody knows what happened, life goes on, but not the way we know right now.
i.e, the els don't come down, the IND never happens, and the City allows IRT & BMT a fare that allows the companies to stay out of banruptcy.
If you are not a descendent of Hylan, absolutely nothing happens to you. While you are in 1900, you are not in 2001 at the same instant in space-time.
There's no "second world" involved. Space-time is a single entity, from the beginning of creation to now (and beyond now).
But what about your own past. If you go back to the past and fix the world to your satisfaction, then you would be born in this "perfect" world. Why would you then want to go back to the past and fix it?
How about preventing World War I?
Seems you missed a bit of the post about time travel and "Focal Points in Time" All through time there are Focal Points, which are points where (mostly) one person did something that changed the time stream (or history, if you prefer) and a major change that affected everything after that point occured. Frank Sprague, for example is a Focal Point in Time, since his perfection of the electric streetcar and multiple-unit control changed the world in a major way. Eliminate Frank, and the streetcar as we know it, and the subway as we know it won't happen if he's not around. Same thing as discussed about Hylan.
World War I (and II) were not the result of one person's actions. If you prevent Archduke Ferdinand's assination in 1914, the war would have probably happened anyway.
There is no "perfect world". If Hylan is killed, certain things that happened because of him don't occur. This includes what happens to the IRT/BMT, and the non-existance of the IND. Time is very fluid and everything we do affects the time stream. We just aren't aware of it.
The 1989 movie Milleniumreally goes into the effects of time travel.
It's enough to give you a headache trying to keep track of what might or might not happen from changing history.
As I quoted Geordi LaForge, "Time Travel always gives me nosebleeds."
The really wierd part of time travel and changing the time stream (History) is that if you do it, nobody except you knows anything was changed.
Wellll---how about the Little Flower - Laguardia - he hated the els and trolleys you know - "too old fashioned" --like love & marriage - you "cant have one without the other..."(from the song) - Hyland just started the anti-transit stance because he was fired by the BRT for "improper" train operation
on the Lex El (I believe) around a curve - he had a grudge but Laguardia had a crusade...a mission...
(hey, Karl B---how about it !!)
I sort of liked Fiorello!
Didn't he read the comics to the kids over the radio during the newspaper strike?
Chris.
Very nice. A real dream. Hope one day we at least get to see the Second Avenue subway, at least the New York City part.
Keep up the good work.
Let's remember---Routes 8 to 14 are signed up on R62s and possibly R142s as supplements to other lines, they have a green 8, red 9 {in service}, green 10, purple 11, red 12, red 13, green 14
Chris,
To get a better look at your 2nd Ave. subway plan, I grabbed a street map of NYC and drew all your routes on it in marker.
I would have continued to draw all the current subway lines for geographical comparison, but that would have taken too long.
But just looking at the map like this, I am thoroughly impressed, even more than I was before. Youve got beautiful direct routes and efficient land usage for the different lines, and everything.
The second avenue subway is considered a legend even thogh it never was buit.So I decided to do some reaserch and found out tat many factors prevent the subway line to be built.
1.The lack of funds prevented the line from being built ever since the 3rd avenue line was demolshed.
2.The second avenue line never was planned for other bouroughs which brought protest against the line.
3.Eviromental factors has slowed down the partial elevation of this line.
4.There is no acess to Richmond county(Staten Island) or any airports which would create more of an income than expenses.
5.The 3rd avenue line was demolished too soon.
I am currently planning a drawing of the second avenue line with these facts.Here are my current plans
Manhatthan:2 express and local tracks running from 125th street to Whitehall street with 4 subway lines(3 which arent currently subway ilnes.2 which never been subway lines)the W serving local stations from 125 street to 72nd street then going into a portal to connect with the 63 street tunnel eventually running on its current line.
T which runs from 125th to Whitehall making local stops into Staten Island.The X will run from 125th from the Bronx to Whitehall making express stops, and the U which would run from 125th and Lexington avenue to Grand street going into Brooklyn.
Brooklyn:The U will run from Grand street to Starret city making local stops.Possible connection to the A in Queens.
Queens:Current plans are to go to Laguadia airport local.No other information.May be connection with A.
Staten Island:The X will run out of Whitehall street to the Staten Island mall(possibly to Tottenville beach.
The Bronx:There are no current plans for the Bronx.
If you have any comments to give me then I'll be happy to take them.
Looks and reads remarkably like Chris Rivera's 2nd Avenue Subway.
Did you enjoy his post?
Interesting that you are using the 63rd Street Connector like the original plan had it. I didn't like the 63 Street Connector I was only having it connected in case of emergency. You're going by the original 2nd Avenue Plan and you have done your research. I give you credit and I wish you luck on your work.
The Bronx:A possible extension on the X from 125th and second avenue to Co-op city.
Can you please give some of your sources that you used for research material?
You wonder why I was asking all those questions on Manhatthan and elevated lines?
That does not constitute as 'research'
Hi--Mr X-2001
To comment on your posting and shed some info re:
(Numbers 1 and 2 )
Incorrect - As early as 1941 shortly after the 1940 opening of the Dyre IRT "shuttle" on the ex-NYW&B mainline above E. 180th st...there were
2nd Ave. subway discussions both in public and NYCTS
(later renamed NYCTA) circles. Two tenative, speculative plans (among many) were to use the former NYW&B route from just east of its former
E.132nd Street Bronx terminal in the NHRR freight yards - to surface from a river tunnel and curve easterly along the NYW&B route to its connection with the NHRR-NY Connecting RR Hell Gate bridge
tracks at grade in the lower Bronx. The NYW&B used the two westerly (of 6 total) tracks exclusively along with NHRR freight to the Harlem River terminal
freightyards. Rehabilitation of all stations (Port Morris at appx. E 138th St.) up thru the E.174th
st. branch-off of the NYW&B from NHRR to the E.180th St (ex NYW&B) IRT Dyre shuttle terminal station - and related third rails, track and signals - would be required. The NYW&B R-O-W was fully intact in 1941 along that route. The line would continue up the steel viaduct to E. 180th St. ex-NYW&B station, and from there north to Dyre Ave. terminal.That line was already fully rapid-transit operational. Only the plaform extenders installed in 1940 to the ex-W&B stations - installed for narrower IRT el cars - would have to be removed. Thus the platforms would again be back to 10' car widths used by the ex-NYW&B cars and IND-BMT cars. WWII (Jan 1942) precluded
any further plans--shelved indefinitely until after the war (mid 1945). After the war, plans to remove the IRT Manhattan 3rd Ave el (and Bklyn Lexington Ave el--BMT) resurged and many newer plans including the NYW&B route were drawn up. By 1955 there was appx. $500 million earmarked for transit improvements including the proposed 2nd Ave. subway per its many route proposal options. The BMT Lex el did come down in 1951 - but the 3rd Ave El was retained pending these multiple, continuing 2nd Ave. subway route studies. One plan was to connect the subway to the Pelham (#6) line either around 138th street via tunnel -or below Whitlock Ave. where the subway exits to elevated and the subway portion
parallels very closely the ex-NYW&B / NHRR mainline at just below railroad grade. I presume connection
there would be a tunnel opening a few blocks south of the IRT portal along the NYW&B line route - under
Bruckner Blvd, and into the #6 tunnel just below its Whitlock portal.
In any event, the powers that were in 1955 closed the 3rd Ave. El May 12th, and earmarked a big portion of the set-aside improvement funds into new cars and station extensions and new signals and track and electrical improvements on the IRT Lex Line to handle the el passenger fares to the Lex Line.
The NYW&B route was abandoned as it was easier to
connect the IRT Dyre Line to the IRT mainline at E. 180th Street via a relatively inexpensie ramp (used today) by 1957-58 to give Dyre passengers a DIRECT ride to the Lex Line on the east side - something the 2nd Ave. subway would have made redundant via the ex-NYW&B original route plan. Purchase of the
NHRR 2-track ex-NYW&B R-O-W and total rebuilding
of it from Harlem River to E.174th St---as opposed to the aforementioned flyover ramp construction - was not cost effective to the end result. Neither was the Pelham Line connection - those passengers
already had an East side access via the #6 & Lex
route--a 2nd Ave. route would have duplicated that established, satisfactory service.
( 3 )
Could you PLEASE qualify your continual statements about Enviornmental Factors in most of your
explanations--or be more specific as to what, how and where these "factors" come into play re: your texts. Its becoming to look like a "stock phrase" with no connective substance.
( 5 ) Correct - the 3rd Ave. El could have lasted
at least 5 more years with rudimentary maintenance to "buy more time" re: the subway developments for 2nd Avenue - it was hastily and prematurely removed
via a bait and switch political move re: promising
East siders a definite subway. As history shows -
almost 50 years later (ie: 1955-2005) no subway operation on 2nd Avenue - most of my lifetime waiting for the "promise" re: the el demise of '55. (Hey, Myrtle and the Q types lasted until 1969 !!!)
Why - because the TA WANTED and NEEDED it to for the public good of the area..a reverse mentality re: the 3rd Ave. El & 2nd Ave. subway I proffer.)
On the surface of it, I have followed your posts and the "responses" of most subtalkers re: same...and it appears that, not withstanding multiple literacy and spelling errors - there seems to be intelligence
trying to come forward. Perhaps you type TOO fast - or your keyboard "misses, skips" certain alphabet
letters - and/or you DO NOT proof-read and spell-
check/correct your work. Some friendly suggestions
especially for someone who proposes to be a
computer literate individual and a softWARE
designer by trade and wants to start a new software business. I am FAR from computer literate - but I AM
literate and do try to catch MOST of my keystroke
misses or just stupid spelling errors on my part.
Thankfully I can type fast - have done so for 45 years when all we had was "typewriters".
I have no comments on the following numerical topics you propose as I have no expertise on curent 2nd Ave. subway plans, routes, branches & extensions - but I do find your comments interesting if not grandiose (ie: Tunnel from South Ferry to St. George
-- l920's plans called for a Narrows tunnel via a shorter underwater route connecting the BMT and SIRT
and tunnel headings on (I think the BMT 4th Ave. Bklyn line) for such a route were built - Paul Matus
and the BMT fellows can detail that for you - I am an IRT man per se!!) I think the location (not sure for a fact) of the stub tunnel headings are in the general vicinity of the former 69th St Ferry- Verrazano-Narrows bridge region - again BMT guys have this on the tip of their memories,,,,)
Hope my info and friendly imput is useful to you
Regards - Joe !
In response to (1): In fact, the 2nd Avenue Subway was funded *twice*, once shortly after WWII, and once in the early 70s (when the few sections of which currently exist were built). The city's financial crisis in the early 70s saw the second round of funds earmarked for the 2nd Ave subway diverted to other city agencies.
Joe@NYC Model Transit's reply to your post details the 40s & 50s goings on.
Since your research failed to turn up any of this info, I'm skeptical as to the remainder of your posting...
Rednoise
(NewQirQ)
Have to AGREE WITH YOU "Rednoise" -- I was trying to be informative and polite in my post to Mr. X-2001 and nontheless - he should do more research like young Chris Rivera does - and more thought imput - before he (Mr.X-2001) writes...dont you agree?
I really think he IS trying - but he should skip the Q&A format also - it just adds more confusion...your imput on this similar to mine?
Regards - Joe
I've uploaded my photos from my recent trip to Boston and Maine. Go to Keystone Pete's Trolley Photos and follow the links.
(I just finished putting them up, so if there are any bad links, let me know. Also, with a dial-up connection during busy times like right now, Sunday, the pages may take a few minutes to load completely. God knows it took forever to upload the images!)
If I can find the time, I may write up a trip report to accompany them. There were just too many to do it this weekend. As always, email me with any comments or corrections.
Keystone Pete
Pete, nice shots... I missed you by four days at Seashore... was there the 31st. Should have my film back in a day or two but it will be at least the weekend before I get things scanned and posted.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I was riding the PATH train to World Trade Center from Newark with my dad yesterday (Saturday), and I noticed some odd, interesting things:
1) I spotted 'back alleyways' and door entrances well-lit in the Hudson-tube just before entering WTC on the inbound track.
2) (I knew this before) Storage tracks on the INTERIOR platform of Journal Square for off-duty trains, and the Journal Square storage area (anyone know what it's called?)
I also spotted PATH's PA-1 cars (the first of the pack) #100, and #101 at Harrison station in the afternoon (not on the same trip).
3) (Everyone may know this but PLEASE respond!) Green lights on PATH. I've been noticing them for several weeks that I have ridden on them. The green lights turn on once the train stops or reaches 5mph. When it departs, they turn off once the train hits 10mph.
Green lights are NOT found on PATH's PA-1 cars. When off-duty in storage locations (WTC, Newark, Journal Sq., and PATH storage & maintenance facility near NWK), the green lights remain on.
4) (Normal condition) Third rail segments that are about 10 feet long (they look like miniatures) to accomodate the many track switches at Journal Square.
5) (Normal condition but PLEASE respond!) Numerous SPARKS between the wheel and the third rail. Anyone know WHY?? (This also goes with why there are sparks also between the pantograph and the catenary wire on HI-V NJT and Amtrak trains.)
Today, I also spotted an Amtrak train (long locomotive #604 connected with #608, carrying only about 6 cars) trundle slowly down track #14 of NYP. While it was going to the front, I heard and saw a SHOCKING CRACKLE between the #608's pantograph and the low catenary wire. I thought the ceiling would burst. The light rays were yellow (because some signs blocked the view). Anyone know what caused this and why there are two long locomotives (What are they called?) for only carrying 6 cars of weight? (When only one of them can pull an entire Crescent train at a good 75-80mph.)
Answers will be greatly appreciated. Thanks.
: )
Railfan Pete.
>>3) (Everyone may know this but PLEASE respond!) Green lights on PATH. I've been noticing them for several weeks that I have ridden on them. The green lights turn on once the train stops or reaches 5mph. When it departs, they turn off once the train hits 10mph.
Green lights are NOT found on PATH's PA-1 cars. When off-duty in storage locations (WTC, Newark, Journal Sq., and PATH storage & maintenance facility near NWK), the green lights remain on.
<<
The green lights indicate that the air brakes have engaged. They go out when the brakes are fully released.
Back when PATH was the Hudson Tubes, the largest office building in the world was on top of the downtown terminal. Only it wasn't the World Trade Center, it was the Hudson Terminal. The platform configuration was slightly different thus the alleyways and doorways at the WTC stop today.
The Amtrak thing might have been a work locomotive towing a dead one.
After 1962, the biggest office building in the world became the PanAm Building at 200 Park Avenue.
Then in 1970 the World Trade Center opened, and it remains.
"After 1962, the biggest office building in the world became the PanAm Building at 200 Park Avenue"
I do believe that until recently the PENTAGON was the bigest building in the world, now that honor is held by the twin towers in Mylasia.
Elias
The Pentagon covers the largest area.
The World Trade Center has the most space.
The Petronas Twin Towers are the tallest.
Looks like it is a matter of "Define Big" : )
Elias
The Pentagon covers the largest area.
The World Trade Center has the most space.
The Petronas Twin Towers are the tallest.
The largest building in the world by volume is the Boeing assembly plant in Everett, Washington. I drove past it on Saturday morning, alas the public tours are offered only on weekdays. Its floor space is something like 3.5 million square feet, huge but by no means a record (several auto assembly plants, among others, are bigger). But the building is over 100 feet high, much higher than most other industrial buildings, so in terms of cubic feet it's numero uno in the world.
I've read that the BNSF spur line into the Boeing building has the steepest grade of any non-cog railway in the United States. Couldn't find it, unfortunately.
"The Petronas Twin Towers are the tallest."
Yes, counting the decorative and *empty* beehive spire doohickeys at the tops of the towers. But if you count what owners, tenants, and visitors really care about -- how many floors can be occupied, and how high up can one stand indoors (highest occupied floor) -- Sears Tower in Chicago is still the tallest building in the world.
The Petronas Twin Towers are the tallest.
Yes, counting the decorative and *empty* beehive spire doohickeys at the tops of the towers. But if you count what owners, tenants, and visitors really care about -- how many floors can be occupied, and how high up can one stand indoors (highest occupied floor) -- Sears Tower in Chicago is still the tallest building in the world.
The decorative spires on top of the Petronas Towers are meant to reflect some sort of Islamic design motif, or so I've read.
There is a building under construction in Shanghai that will, upon completion in a year or so, be the world's tallest in terms of occupied floors.
There is a building under construction in Shanghai that will, upon completion in a year or so, be the world's tallest in terms of occupied floors.
What about the taller buildings being planned in Chicago, like 7 South Dearborn and Trump Chicago?
There is a building under construction in Shanghai that will, upon completion in a year or so, be the world's tallest in terms of occupied floors.
What about the taller buildings being planned in Chicago, like 7 South Dearborn and Trump Chicago?
"Planned" and "coming soon" are utterly meaningless expressions in the real estate industry. Until construction physically begins, pay no attention to what developers say.
I say this is a matter of not just American pride, but of the pride of the entire developed world.
How can the tallest buildings in the world be in MALAYSIA? Why can't they at least be in Japan, Hong Kong or even Bangkok or Singapore?
Hell, if the new building will be built in Shanghai, then at least the tallest building in the world will be in an important country.
When the building is up, I'll go out and measure it.
Elias : )
>> The platform configuration was slightly different... <<
Slightly different?? Entirely new platforms were built. The old trackways and platforms are now part of a truck loading dock.
All mentioned in Joe Brennan's brilliant abandoned stations list (accessible from this site).
Rednoise
(NewQirQ)
Peggy has informed me that someone is sending viruses throught rh nycasubway.org e-mail. Her PC is clean. The text reads:
"Hi, How are you? I send this file for your advice."
There are several attachments. One is 2096K- that is the sircam worm. Do not open such an attachment. One person sent the thing seven times using different subjects including one posing as official mail from the ISP. That poster has been reported to the ISP.
Peggy asked me to post this here, since the person(s) sending the virus knew of the site. Most current antivirus software will detect this Sircan worm virus.
To all subtalkers: If you get attachments from unknown people that contain such text delete unopened. The PC you save can be yours!
I have been getting viruses sent to my e-mail. They are comming from real domains, but not from valid accounts so it might not actually be a person at nycsubway.org.
Just what we need, another wacko on the loose!
E_DOG
Norton Anti-Virus has been protecting against this virus since July 17. Subwaybuff speaks the truth about this one. If you have a anti-virus program, keep it updated frequently. If you don't, GET ONE ASAP!! and keep it updated.
No one should be sending email FROM nycsubway.org-- only a very few contributors have email addresses in that domain and they are solely FORWARDING addresses. However Peggy has such an email address and she may have received a virus SENT to it. The Sircam virus works by searching address books and web browser caches for email addresses and since her name and address appears on many pages on this site it is not unlikely that there may be many instances of the virus sending email to her address. (I must have gotten over a thousand so far but I filtered it out a long time ago.)
I had the pleasure of having to clean out a couple of computers back on the 24th after someone at the office opened a file with the virus (which also re-directs all of your desktop icons to run through the virus ones you've clicked on them after infection, so those also have to be deleted and re-created). Here's the Norton site for the Sircam fix:
Symantec W32.Sircam.Worm@mm Fix tool
...I came across an E with that very same text...
........only it was written in SPANISH.
I decided to go railfanning after going to the museum. To get to the museum i took the E. Funny enough, in the 53rd street tube, there was a signal that would usually say yellow over illuminated S. Funny the bulb was blown out! so all there was was a S on the signal. According to MTA safety rules the Motorman was supposed to call that in as a defect, then proceed with restricted speed with extreme caution to the next signal. Anways he just acted like all was well.
I decided to go railfanning after going to the museum. To get to the museum i took the E. Funny enough, in the 53rd street tube, there was a signal that would usually say yellow over illuminated S. Funny the bulb was blown out! so all there was was a S on the signal. According to MTA safety rules the Motorman was supposed to call that in as a defect, then proceed with restricted speed with extreme caution to the next signal. Anways he just acted like all was well.
highlights of day was when i went to the museum and after giving a tour, A Fellow tour guide who is a former signal tower operator. Not only did he describe what a Tower does, but he had a key, and was able to demonstrate signals! Like he would say "ok Class, look to the right, what does the signal say"? I said it says double red like it always says! But he pulled out the lever, then the signal changed to a bottom green proceed on main route. The best part was learning how a Call on works!!
Jamaica Center was opened in 1988. I remember getting on the E as a kid. Anyways what i always wanted to know is, whos office is the office with the sign that says "Welcome to the E line" "The line of Excellence" Its where alot of Motorman sit. They usually leave that office and a few steps away is the Motormens cab on a train on track one or 2. I don't think that is the crew room, because Not alot of Motormen hang out there. Plus i went inside 179th crew room, and it has lockers, a TV, and it is a staircase from the bathroom. Not to mention what i love about the Crew room, it has the F logo on it. So whos office is that at the End of the platform where the Cab car is, and where is the Jamaica center crew room?
The room you refer to is the E line dispatchers office. There is one common crew room used by crews on the E & J lines located on the lower level. Access is by walking aside the tracks and going thru a door on the left. Same goes from the J line dispatchers office. From the E line we walk down very steep stairs. The male locker room is to the right of the stairs. The female locker room is farther down the tracks. The E line does not have a toilet. It is behind the J line dispatchers office, which, of course, is right under the E line dispatchers office. There is a steep, heavily winding spiral staircase linking the 2 dispatchers' offices. If you ever climbed the spiral staircase leading to the top of the Statue of Liberty, this stircase is 10 times worse although of course shorter in length. No one in excess of 125 pounds will have an easy time of it. We have to sign on and off the payroll and get radio batteries outside the fare control area thru a door next to the newsstand and walk down a long corridor.
Someone told me that the 4th Avenue line in Brooklyn actually has two more trackways on the East side of the avenue somewhere between 59th and 95th Streets. They're hidden behind the wall. Is this true or just a rumor? This is on the R line.
This is true. To see them, ride a northbound R from Bay Ridge Ave to 59 St. When you see daylight, look to your right and there they will be.
The BRT was built on one side of 4th Avenue, to include further exapnsion. 4th Avenue is a four lane street, and provisions were made for expansion in the future, a la Staten Island connection (if not at 59/4).
Interesting point is that during construction, which was done at the same time as the LIRR grade crossing elimination project, the 4th Avenue line was placed in an elevated 'tunnel', spanning 65th Street. This is the glimpse of daylight you see, you are actually on a bridge over the LIRR at that point.
YOoooo- Al (I-TI-GUY-SI)
I just noted Mirabella asked about the extra tunnels in the 4th Ave BMT subway on its east side and said "someone told him about it" and wants to know if its a rumor.....funny - a short while before it I posted a response to Mr. X-2001 and mentioned an alternative to his South Ferry/ St. George tunnel he proposes was planned by the BMT in the 20's via a shorter route to Staten Island from the 4th Ave. BMT Subway with tunnel headings installed when line was built. I wasnt sure of exact location but said they were in the section between " the ex-69th St. Ferry to the Verrazano Bridge section of the line" as I
remember seeing the headings some 35 years ago !!
I told Mr. X-2001 to contact "Paul Matus or some of the BMT sub-talk guys" (as I'm an IRT man primarily but love the BMT too) - to get exact details and location ---and an hour or more after MY post about that, Tony M asks for details because he is afraid of what he "heard" from "someone" as being a rumor. I hope he - in a back door way -
wasnt refering to my post to Mr X-2001 re: posting
a (BS) rumor that "someone told him about..."
I dont post rumors--but I find it more than a coincidence as to the timing of my post to Mr. X-2001 and Tony M's question-post shortly thereafter on the identical topic I wrote about to Mr. X-2001
However - I am glad for the sake of my post to Mr. X
and the subtalk board that the tunnel heading topic to S.I. was aptly covered by your reply to Tony---it was also informative to me !!!! Thanks for the info and at least confirms the (my?) "rumor"----
Regards as always - Joe
Joe:
Nope. I didn't even see your post. Oddly enough, though, my friend, Joe Ciccone, was the one who started the rumor. So, wrong rumor, wrong Joe!
Hey---Tony - Thanks for the quick note back...just was concerned - you know - with all the hot collars
flaming up on S/T over the past few days - BTW - you have a website - dont you...a subway website? If it is you ---its a very nice site---caught it a while ago thats why I am not sure if you're the person I am connecting with it---let me know or email me -- but IF YOU ARE - what would be the possibility of getting some inside tunnel shots of the S.I. tunnel headings legally by a TA employee subtalker for
historical record...I dont think they would turn out too well from a moving train...possibly why I (nor anyone I would presume) haven't seen, anywhere, any
photos of this connection---as I posted - its 35+ years since I saw it on my BMT line rambles in the
mid 60"s----Regards - Joe
My site is: Here
YOooo "Tonouche" (Tony!) - I looked up you site via Chen"s website--and found YOUR site - yes it was your
site I saw a week or so ago - very nice graphics...great photos - would love to see more of the (sadly!) East NY Fulton el remnant demolition - I dont get to NY much from Phila these days so I missed being there to record the demolition like I did most other el lines from 1955 up...do you think you could post a few or do you know whose site has some for viewing...PS --keep up the good work.
Did you catch my website ??
What's your site? I may get out to East New York again, as the demolition has progressed. Unfortunatly, it is highly industrial. With the brutal heat, I'd rather wait until it gets a little cooler, as the air out there is bad to begin with. I will post some more pictures as soon as I get them. I actually have a lot more pictures, but I have to upload them.
Thanks for the response Tony -I sent you an email
5:45 AM Tues. w/ my website link.
That is true about the current trackways on the east side of 4th ave. However, there is no proof that two trackways exist on the west side of 4th ave. other than the underground bridge that spans the LIRR between 59 st. and Bay Ridge ave. stations. Two very good friends of mine recently went there and reported that there is no additional trackways on either side of the bridge. Just the bridge itself. This website has wonderful info on the line and how it was built to be a 4 track line in the future. Look at the columns at Bay Ridge ave. and 77 st. stations. 86 st. would have been an express station.
please, what is the location of that website? thanks
4th Ave. Subway
Read Overview, Plannned Expansion to Staten Island and What Makes the 4th Ave. Line Interesting.
Also scroll down to the end for station pictures.
Enjoy.
The Station by Station on that site misses (or ignores) the 25th Street station.
Never mind, ignore my above post, it does briefly mention 25th St.
The trackways are under the west side of 4th Avenue in case the line would have been four-tracked. However, the Dual Contract era plan for the line would not have had the Staten Island branch at 95th Street but under 65th Street, so the 4 tracks would not have been needed for this purpose.
AFAIK, the two other trackways do not exist except on the bridge corssing the LIRR, where they can be plainly seen from passing trains.
I noticed less R-142s on the 6 line this weekend. Is it just my imagination? Maybe they're moving them to the 5 line. I'd love to know when we're going to get them. I heard on the news that the MTA wants to have almost all the Redbirds replaced by the end of 2002. At the current rate, it doesn't seem likely.
The new cars on the #6 line are R-142As, not R-142s. I have not seen any plans calling for R-142As to run on the #5 line.
David
no r-142A's are going to the 5 line. R-142's are going to the 5 line. why there were not a lot running on the 6 i don't know. but, i have been seeing a fair number all weekend. if there is less then these is a really small problem to be fixed.
I noticed the R-142A's seem to be grouped together in the schedule. Maybe I was riding when the R-142As were in Manhattan. I was in the Bronx.
what's the diff between the r142a and r142?
basically:
r-142a=kawasaki
r-142=bomnardier
The front windows of the cars look different. On the R142A, the cab and storm door windows are angled, very similar to the R110A test train, both of which are made by Kawasaki. The R142, made by Bombardier, has larger and rounder cab and storm door windows and looks more like Philadelphia's M4 Market-Frankford El cars than the R110A.
Ther eare other differences, too:
1) The stainless steel sidind on the trains is slightly shinier on the R142As than the R142s.
2) The wondow and door borders are more plain and rough on the R142 than on the R142As.
3) The LED interior signs on the R142As are programmed to change much faster and without a blank sign after each message, unlike othe R142s.
4) The LED exterior signs on the R142As luminate much lighter and without a blank sign after each message, unlike the R142s.
5) On the R142s, there are NO wall advertisements, only the subway map on one end of each wall on each car.
6) In between the cars, the R142As have a light grey all the way down, while the R142s have light grey at the top, then continue down with a dull dark grey.
7) The propulsion feels smoother on R142s, the AC traction motors are different, and the front LED signage is more red on the R142s and more towards orange on the R142As.
8) The prerecorded announcement voices are slightly different. The voice on the R142A sounds more jolly and happy than on the R142As, with a much more realistic tone. On the R142As, I think the voice data file has been copied from the computer of the R110A, since the voices sound familiar.
Well, I can really point out all the differences between the cars, physically, but I won't until next time...
CWalNYC
carlwal@hotmail.com
I noticed that the Bombadiers (142s) are quieter while accelerating and MUCH quieter when stopping. Too bad that the Phelam lines don't have them.
I agree. Was riding a R-142 the other day. Could not hear the motors at all. Much more quiet. Also seemed to be more solid. I always thought Kawasaki was a better subway car, but it seems that Bombardier has improved.
Yep. Probably this is so. I saw long ago an R142 #2 train pull up on the southbound exp platform of 34 St. Penn Station, at the same time I was boarding with my family a Redbird Bronx-bound #2 train. I didn't hear any sound, neither/nor any propulsions, electric motors, or brakes screeching.
FYI: while the R142A has some advantages with the R142's, the R142A's IRT electric motors can be heard. They sound JUST LIKE the motors worked on the R62(A) trains on the #6 line.
I need to spend more time on them, though, to capture more differences.
: )
Railfan Pete.
4) The LED exterior signs on the R142As luminate much lighter and without a blank sign after each message, unlike the R142s.
FYI: R142A trains on the #6 Pelham line DO BLINK when they change signs on their LCD displays. This also happens with the #2 - 7th Av. Express lines.
I've seen an R142 train leave 42nd St. - Grand Central downtown towards Brooklyn Bridge while I was on a #4 Redbird express train. (sorry I don't have either car #'s). Of course it looked normal like a regular R142A. But I saw the #6, and then to the right of it, it said Brooklyn Bridge, then after a few seconds it blinked for a split second and said Lexington Av. Local.
Looks like you've been around a LOT of R142(A)'s to state your differences! (I've only rode the R142(A) once, but I saw it passing by the tubes and from distant places several times)
: )
Railfan Pete.
I've seen an R142 train leave 42nd St. - Grand Central
R142A train... sorry.
Railfan Pete.
there is alot more you are missing. bodywise, the truck/bogies are different structure.(1) Kawasaki's body is made of stainless steel with fiber glass at each end (for some reason it feels flimsy in motion) the bombardier and stainless steel with aluminum (the top end of the front of each car is aluminum) bombardier made after stock 6620 now feature artwork. on the traction motors kawasaki whines out a sound and the bombardier makes musical tones which is quieter also (5 tones. it seems to not be heard inside of the car but it can be if you can synthesize sounds with your ears or listen hard enough)
lets put it it like this the kawaski r142 has its pros and cons and so does the the bombarider r142
excuse the post. i thought you were the other guy.
of course. but, you were getting specific. so, i decided to help you with that.
they are grouped together and because there are alot on the line plus the 6 is a short line. so they are qucker to catch
i think i saw 73 something on the #2 the other day
Please be advised I asked several train operators about the current 10 car # 7 train situation they will run 10 trains at ALL TIMES including rush hours. August 25th 11 car trains will return on a side note R 36 9456 has suffered a fatal fire on its # 2 end I dont know what burned how ever the # 2 truck of this car has already been changed its a dummy truck no eletrical power on it. I guess thats another car for 207 st to strip. Rest in peace R 36 9456 you will be missed :0(
Was 9456's mate, 9457 affected by the fire too? Hmmm, ten-car trains on the 7, just in time for the hotter-than-hell weather in store for this week.
[R 36 9456 has suffered a fatal fire on its # 2 end]
Did that happen at Queensboro Plaza? I was on a 7 train that terminated at 61st Street due to a fire at Queensboro Plaza last Friday.
Thanks for finding out. I have not seen the No.7 since Saturday and hope I don't see it for a long time. Saturday was my 2nd or 3rd day over there and I felt like a fish out of water.
These a AT&T add on TV using a path train for a Chicago Transit. The station looks like Penn Station the Jersey. Anyone else seen the TV add.
Robert
I did. It's a bit odd for SHURE!
What are you trying to say? Shoe? Shirt? Shoot?
Yeah, saw it just this morning....I thought it was Journal Square, though...I'll watch for it again...
Seems more like Oldark to me.
I posted this a long time ago, and don't remember if anyone replied. Probably, I just forgot.
In Jurassic Park 2, Jeff Goldblum is shown riding on a R-44/46/68 at the beginning of the movie, when the jerk makes fun of him. I was wondering:
1. Was the train really moving, or did they do it with sound and visual effects.
2. If it was moving, were the other passengers actors or real passengers who were just invited to be in the movie. (I have heard of producers doing this.)
I know my second question isn't too bright. I don't think Jeff would risk being mugged or maulled by fans on a real subway ride. I'm just curious about how they did it.
Yes the train was moving. I don't know for sure but the use of extras would be normal in that situation. The scene was shot at the Church Ave. Station on a Sunday AM. It was shot using an R-46 4-car unit out of janaica yard.
>>> were the other passengers actors or real passengers who were just invited to be in the movie. <<<
On a union picture, which that was, you can be sure the other passengers were paid extras. If you have ever watched any film making, you have seen that even a simple scene is shot over and over again ad nauseam. Real passengers would not put up with that, and if there were different "extras" in different takes, editing would become an impossible task.
Tom
In New York or L.A. or other larger cities with a union presence, (Philly, Chi, Atlanta), you can bet the extras were hired and paid. If the scene is "large" enough, a certain union-approved percentage of the extras will be non-SAG, yet still paid close to the daily SAG rate, but with no health & retirement, obviously. (Can you imagine the TWU allowing 5% of T/Os to be non-union?!)
Film producers like to take advantage of the fact that young, fresh-faced, wide-eyed, aspiring actors will work for peanuts for "the experience." This comes in especially handy on location in "middle America" where they see no harm in letting mesmerized provincials or local officials walk through a scene for Public Relations cache. This costs them nothing, and the union even has a special "waiver" program, which lets non-union performers appear in this capacity without having to join. The mayor of Peoria gets to "do a movie," and take a job away from a professional, but he doesn't have to pay union initiation fees or dues, and the producer doesn't have to pay his health and retirement. An individual can do this 3 times when uttering even the simplest line, which usually ends up on the cutting room floor anyway. An individual can do this as many times as he wants without speaking.
I'm not in SAG, but were I, this practice would piss me off. You wanna act? Pay your dues, figuratively and literally, and join the union. Otherwise, let a SAG member work. The performers' unions (SAG, AFTRA, and AEA) walk a fine line between making sure at least a paltry contingent of their members work and being negated out of existence. The fact that producers think anyone will be in a movie if given the chance, and the fact that, for young actors, this is true, makes the actors' unions weak at best.
SAG's mission seems to be less about the work and more about finding ways to keep people out of its ranks to save the work for existing members. This, to me, runs counter to the concept of Unionization, whose ultimate goal should be to improve working conditions for more people who are working. And don't wine about paying $10.00 for movie. The cause of that is the astronomical star salaries, which are so outrageous that they may by themselves bust the union.
I have yet to see a way out of this quagmire, save making sure every face in a movie carries a SAG card.
a simple scene is shot over and over again ad nauseam.
You better believe it.
I was the operator for the live streetcar scenes in Barry Levinson's Avalon. We must of done 30 round trips from North Avenue Loop to 28th Street and back in order to shoot the simple scene where the boy is riding on a car, gets off and runs to another car, which then leaves. I beleve over 50 minutes of actual film was shot that night, and less than a minute made it into the finished release.
The streetcar footage in Levinson's was all shot in daylight (I was NOT the operator for that one) and took the entire day. At least our PCC, 7407 got more screen time in that one.
Maybe this was posted on and I missed it (I have been away for awhile), but the G line has something weird going on:
The OPTO seemed to be out of effect this weekend.
4 car trains were still operating, but at the rear cab there was another operator. Oddly, the Rear T/O was not opening up the car doors, but rather the front T/O.
Anyone know why?
How many trains were operating like this? Maybe it was a TSS in the rear if it was just one.
Well, I only saw 2 G trains, but they both had this situation, and at the stations, they opened their windows and looked out until the doors were closed.
transverse cab madness
transverse cab hell !!
eBay item 1175524951; auction closes August 12.
Joe,
Since you post this stuff from time to time, it would help both the people who are interested and you if you learned to post a clickable URL, like this.
Hey Paul, How can I do that on this page. I can do it for my own mail but not on here. Yes, I don't have a dummy book either, Ha Ha!
Thanks!
I just tried to show this to Larry Littlefield in another post, but between the preview and the post, the BB software interpreted my attempt to show the open and close angles to code.
In the following code sample, interpret (( to be a < (shift comma) and )) to be a > (shift period).
((A HREF="http://www.rapidtransit.net"))Description of link((/A)) which produces Description of link. Don't forget the http:// and the quotes.
Thanks Paul, I'll give it a try.
Cool! It worked! Thanks again.
How come you only appear when you have something to sell???
Peace,
ANDEE
We've been through this before. I've told Joe it's ok to post the occasional ad for stuff for sale as long as it's relevant to the newsgroup. Don't go around appointing yourself the Subtalk police; if you don't want to see his posts use your killfile.
I finish the R142 beta train. here's the link to download it from my page.
http://jcamacho.topcities.com/mstsdownloads.htm
OK, so the subject line is a little corny...
My wife and I dropped Jr. off at camp on the 24th and spent the next nine days wandering in Canada and New England. Herewith a brief summary of various rail and transit sights we saw (pictures to follow in a couple of weeks):
East of Syracuse, New York, there is a large collection of miscellaneous old RR equipment visible from the interstate. Not sure exactly what it all is, but some old passenger equipment and what appeared to be a couple of F units were seen.
Smiths Falls, Ontario, has a nice railway museum, including a ride behind a track inspection critter to the end of the line and back. The most interesting car there was a converted sleeper that had seen service for many years as a dental car, bringing dental services to remote areas of Ontario on the Canadian National system. Less than 1 km away from the museum is a bascule bridge over the Rideau Canal that is now permanently in the up position, the trackage having been abandoned about 1979; quite interesting. (And for those with a sweet tooth, Smiths Falls is also the home of Hershey Canada - great tour!)
Ottawa has an interesting busway; we didn't ride it but crossed it on several occasions. There are eight locks at the head of the Rideau Canal that make an impressive sight, as well as numerous bridges across the river to Hull, Québec.
We visited the Canadian Railway Museum south of Montréal. They have a large collection of preserved railway and streetcar equipment, including two of the special sightseeing streetcars built for tourist service in Montréal. One was in service that day so we were able to ride it about the museum. As she did in most places, my wife found a place to sit with her laptop and write while I wandered about. They have an operating turntable and were using it to move a passenger car from one track to another while we were there. Most of the equipment, naturally, is Canadian, but there was at least one English and one French locomotive in one of the barns.
In Vermont, we encountered the tracks of the St. Lawrence and Atlantic; they joined what appeared to be the main line of the railroad once we crossed into New Hampshire. We were going to cross through Dixville Notch so we follewed the main line north and shortly encountered a rail car and locomotive rebuilding facility whose name I don't remember right now (I took photos of the sign, so I'll have my memory refreshed when I get the pictures back). There was a B23-7, apparently ex-Conrail, outside the closed shop building (this was a Sunday), and a couple of other interesting units on a siding. The main line north of this point was used for car storage for the next several miles, boxcars, flats, and tanks punctuated by the occasional grade crossing.
We stayed in Belfast one night and saw (but did not ride, due to time constraints) the Belfast and Moosehead Lake. They have an RDC that is their main passenger vehicle, although there is also a Swedish-built steam locomotive in the engine house.
Maine has a number of interesting bridges that combine highway and railroad use. Some had the RR on the upper level and the highway underneath, while others had the RR on the lower level. One we saw was no longer used as a highway bridge (the highway portion had been removed at one end, that function having been replaced by a parallel high concrete span) but was still in service for rail traffic. This bridge had a vertical lift section in the middle.
Tuesday the 31st found us at the Seashore Trolley Museum in Kennebunkport. Imagine my delight when I found Third Avenue Railway 631 (sister to Branford's 629) by the depot as the in-service car of the day. There were other revenue passengers so I didn't ask for handle time. We didn't arrive until about 1400h so I had only three hours to explore; it's changed a lot since I was last there about thirty years ago.
We also stopped by the Danbury Railroad Museum on our way home; an interesting collection and worth the stop, at least once anyway. The Housatonic has a manually-operated crossing gate near the Danbury station, pointed out by the volunteer guide (we didn't see it in operation).
And we also saw the old stone depot on the L&HR in Warwick, New York (now an architect's office) and a renovated and adapted station in Newton, New Jersey.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Got my slides back today; unfortunately, the 50mm lens on body #2 (which I used for three out of four rolls) developed a problem that resulted in significant overexposure of all slides taken with that lens (those taken on body #2 with the 35mm or either of my long zooms [100-300 and 350-650] came out OK). So instead of 150 slides to choose from I've only got about 80. Annoying, since I had switched from body #1 (and its good 50mm lens) after the first roll because of a mirror problem on that camera. Oh well... it'll give me an excuse to go back to all these places again :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Its hard to believe that in another few weeks Queens Plaza tower will be no more. They are moving all operations upstairs to Queensboro Master Tower which for those of you who do not know is a glorified trailer. It is cramped up there now and they also have the V line super's office there as well. T/O's are now required to punch southbound along the Queens corridor. For those of you that visit Queens Plaza, the areas that have been changed over have the very bright signals in place. The northbound junction at QP that puts together the G and R trains is now on automatic upstairs. The first train that reaches a designated circuit first will get a line up established and the other train will have to wait. It is very slow through the area now. This situation existed before at the 11 st. cut putting the R and N together southbound. Interesting note, on the QBP model board, the lines are labeled. Where the 7 is, where the N is, etc. For the Queens corridor it is labeled E, F, R and Q. How things change.
".......It is very slow through the area now........" Wait till you see how slow it REALLY gets come November when those V trains have to use the interlocking and hold up all the other services!
You also have D10 (Diverging 10MPH) at the Queens Plaza interlocking, new signals, new reverse running signals AND PUNCHES.
What are they going to do with Gap Sheets? Many a time someone would come out of the tower to confirm the train's ID and half of that the tower person would be wrong.
If there aren't any cameras mounted to see the bulkhead signs, I'd say Sister Cleo will be the TW/O in there. And eventually conductors will announce "this is a southbound [] train, next stop somewhere in Manhattan." :)
Sorry, I meant the call letters of the train, Kings Hwy Fox or a Stillwell Fox... They saw the big orange F (then do they test tower folk for color blindness?)
If they don't test the T/O's to see whether they need a dog in the cab with them or not, why test the TW/O's? Nah, my bet is someone in MTA HQ is having fun with a Lionel set and believes that what's on their desktop really IS the subway. :)
Correct. Was told that they are planning to have no one at the plaza. Asking for trouble. For any of you that work the G, you guys know already. They activated the new punches at QP, 1 track. They put new punches at the 4/6 car markers and another at the 10 car marker. No new punch at the 8 car marker for the G's. So they decided to move the 8 car marker to the 10 car marker. Now starts Monday service and they find out that there is no C/R's board for the G's at the new 8 car marker location. Whoops!
where is the 'dinky trailer' - is this the 'tower' at the west end of the the N-7 platform, or something on the mezzanine on the e-f-g-r stop?
speaking of towers, the old tower just beyond 39th on the N closeby is now just a shell. the rest will likely be gone in a week or 2.
Past the south end of the lower level of Queensboro Plaza. It is painted blue. Right before the 7 makes the turn.
The so called "official" report of the angels flight los angeles official webpage reads still as follows :
""We regret to announce that the Angels Flight Railway is
currently closed following an accident on February 1, 2001 that
killed one person and injured seven.
The damaged cars have been removed from the tracks and
the funicular will not be operating until further notice.""
So much for so called OFFICIAL info the truth is the system is still down & not running with no information whatsoever when it
will return not even a rat pissing on cotton noise geeeeeezzz man nothing at all !! { CURSES } ........................
(sigh)
Sounds like a pending lawsuit is holding things up. Probably the lawsuit is preventing reopening of the line because an investigation to see if negligence or bad maintaince was the cause.
Bill "Newkirk"
Five-O
I do not disagree with you there sir however we havent heard anything about that either !! or the NTSB inquiry results
nothing at all. And it would seem that by now something would have been in the news like some UNOFFICAL
pre guestimate report as to what realy happened & why they think this might have whent down !! ( oh well )
@ devils flight ??......lol !!
Quick Questions:
Do you need to be a resident of the 5 boroughs of NYC to qualify for this job? I live in New Jersey.
What are the requirements? When and where is the job posted?
Thanks for any input.
I don't think you need to be a resident, although NYC residents do receive a 5 point residency bonus.
The requirements, if I remember, included being a high school grad, and 4+ years experience in the work force.
As of this moment, the TA is up to #718 on a list of 6,000 candidates for T/O.
Expect the next test to come out in about 4 years.
Thats not true about the 5 points. I'm a resident of NYC and we didn't get anything 5 points I scored a 100 without any points. That might be for other test but not this one
If you remember, when we took the exam, we were told to fill in the bubble for NYC residency for 5 extra points. Who knows if it was actually applied.
BTW- Since you got 100, I assumed you have already been called, and are now on the job. Hope you're having fun.
Hey been on the road for 2 1/2 months now and its great. We finish our break-in time last week now the fun begins. Meaning lots of board and yard jobs.
>>>>>>>Meaning lots of board and yard jobs.
Keep dreaming. You'll be pounding the road 9 times out of 10.
Forget about what types of jobs you'll be getting, just hope that you get the tour that you want.
Hey I want to pound the road trust me. I can't stand sitting around for 8 hours
Enjoy it while you can! Within a year you'll be as miserable as the rest of us after you get your ass kicked by the (s)crew office a number of times.
I believe if you are looking for extra credit points, look for extras for military service served in NYS, up to 10 points. Those credits can be used once during your civil service career.
All NYC Competitive Exams for Civil Service give 5 points for Veterans and 5 additional points (10) for disabled veterans. I doubt anyone claiming disabled veteran status for T/O would pass the physical for this safety sensitive position.
Never heard of points for city residence. Some agencies you must be a city resident within 90-120 days of getting the job.
By 4+ years in the work force, do you mean with the MTA, or any type of a job?
Any type of job.
There are only two requirements:
1) A high school diploma.
2) You're breathing.
I looked in the mta site and can't find anything for T/o position.
There are no RTO open competitive tests scheduled for 2001 or 2002.
Do you need to be a resident of the 5 boroughs of NYC to qualify for this job? I live in New Jersey.
Good tidings, I'm a 'New Jerseyan' too.
I'm not 100% sure, but you can be if you go to this site:
www.mta.nyc.ny.us Copy and paste this link into your browser, which will bring you to MTA's Official website.
On the left will be golden yellow links, skim down and click on "Employment". It will tell you most everything you will need to be a required employee (engineer) of MTA NYC Transit. Of course, you can apply for other jobs too, like a yard worker, engineer (not for subway, like Metro-North, LIRR, etc.), conductor, etc.
I skimmed through it and I think I remember something about NYC residency for a certain period of time before you become an employee of MTA NYC Transit.
What are the requirements? When and where is the job posted?
Visit this link : www.mta.nyc.ny.us and click on "Employment". It will virtually show you everything step-by-step.
Hope this helps.
: )
Railfan Pete.
I Live in PA and I work for NYCT.
Are you also a Martz commuter?
NO, I drive almost everyday. The commute is 1HR 30 Mins if you do about 70MPH on a clear road. It can take 1HR 10Min if you go 85MPH most of the way. However if your driving with the Rush Hour it turns into a 2HR drive sometimes 3HRs.
There are many TA workers on the Martz bus. I see them all the time. I love the Poconos, and lived there for a short time, but I found work hard to find.
If I get a job with the TA, I'll move up there for good.
Martz is good when you get a study job but since I'm extra its not good for me. The first bus is 4:45AM. Now if I have a job that starts at 6AM in the Bronx I won't make it. Also the last bus out of NY is the 11PM. Now if your job end after 10:30PM your out of luck. When the day comes when you have your handles you will see alot of AM jobs starting around or before 6AM and lots of PM jobs ending after 10PM. L
For the last time no you don't have to live in NYC to work for the TA
Now you don't really believe that this is the last time, do you?
It's going to be some time before the next test. If it were up to me, the city should give the test, select from the first 1,500 names, and then drop the list and give a new test. This way the city will select from those who scored highest, and will pick those likely to be the best for the job.
For example, the current list is 6,000 long, and they are up to number 718. I just don't think that those who ranked 5,000 or less should be considered, because they obviously did not take the test seriously. Anyone who scores less than a 90 should not be considered.
>>>>Anyone who scores less than a 90 should not be considered.
You shouldn't say that. If the DCAS were to follow that rule of thumb, then there wouldn't be anybody operating the trains.
I personally got an 88 back in 1989 for the C/R and Bus Operator combined test.
And from the rumor mill, the highest score for the recent Train Dispatcher's test was an 84.
Honestly, I just kind of pulled the number 90 from the sky, without any research on the matter. But my point is, there should be tougher standards. FDNY takes only those who score 100 on the physical, and 99 or above on the written. Anything lower, and you have no chance.
But I still think that the TA should only choose from the top percentile (say top 20%-30%) of those on the list. Anything lower just does not make sense to me.
DCAS says 70% is passing, write the test so the people you want (those scoring 90%) only score 70+. There are many tests out there that barely get 70% passing DCAS gives out.
Take a look at the Supervisor of Mechanics test, high score was a 78% with vetrans points.
Make the test harder, don't change the citywide rules that you need a 90% to pass.
The T/D test was on a scale of 1-85 not 100. There are 15 pts left for time in.
If 84 includes the longevity points, ouch.
I got a 96 on the CR test in '93 and a 91 on the TO promotional. That put be at #800 on the CR list and #46 on the TO list. As for the TD test, I just passed with 24 wrong.
>>>>>>>As for the TD test, I just passed with 24 wrong
Damn! It doesn't get any closer than that. 24 was the cutoff.
Of course you know that if the rumor going about (only 40 people passing) is false, then you and I can kiss the TD job goodbye. I got 21 wrong myself.
1988 Combined Bus Op/CR test I got a 94% my list number was 2,496. I got called for Bus Operator in 1991 but did not have my CDL. Got called for C/R in 1993 (just as it expired) but didn't want to take the pay cut.
There is a derailment on the LIRR Babylon Branch at Amityville. Details to follow........
WCBS-880 is reporting that it was a non-passenger carrying train and only one set of wheels left the tracks.
It's interesting that sometimes things conspire to make your life easier. This AM I was going to catch the 7:03 from Rockville Centre to Penn. If I take that train, I'm usually in my office (Midtown east side) at about 8:00. Instead, as I arrived at the station I caught a train that was running about 30 minutes late. As a bonus, this train stopped at Woodside, where I made a perfect connection for the 7 express and then the N at QBP -- putting me in the office 10 minutes earlier than usual.
I'm probably the only person who ended up better off because of the derailment.
CG
Unaware that anything was amiss, about 10:30 a.m. I drove north on County Line Road (between Nassau and Suffolk counties) to find much fuss on the LIRR over the road. I could not tell in which county the derailment happened. For a while, a drab blue-and-white switcher was on the eastbound track in Massapequa around 10 a.m., but I thought that might be from the NY&A. However, it was an m-u that derailed.
What caused it? Any info.?
: )
Railfan Pete.
As much as I dislike unofficial news, the best I can do is report what a trainman heard this morning. According to the trainman (with whom I actually spoke), a light train derailed when it dropped a traction motor.
If so, this is a very serious event - especially at 60 or 70 MPH. Back in the 1980s the TA had a rash of these incidents due to some defective motor nose bolts. A massive inspection was undertaken and the problem went away. If the LIRR traction motors are like NYCT traction motors (And I have no reason to suspect that they are different) then the motors have safety hangers. These are ears that ride the axle and support the motor if the nose bolts fail. For the ears to be worn away to the extent that the motor completely dropped (if, indeed, that report is correct), then that motor would likely have been dropped for a significant period of time before today's incident.
Train dude - If you go to MN's open house, they useually havbe a few trucks on display, and I'm sure being in your position, you'd be able to get a closer look at them too. I'm not sure exactly how the motors are mounted, but I know it varies between the different M cars, slightly.
As for this happening, it's not the first motor drop I've heard of on the LIRR. From what I've been hearinmg through various pipelines (all unofficial) is that the M-1's are effectively shot, bodies, trucks and all.
I've heard essentially the same thing and for those of us who use the LIRR, if the M-7s are significantly delayed, it'll be 1968 all over again with massive cancellations and short trains. As I said, dropped motors are not a major event until they drop out of the truck as is reported today. Perhaps a trip to hillside is in order to see what the real deal is.
BTW: Phil, I still a schematic close to the one that you are looking for. It's just too large to copy on my copier. Suggestions?
/*BTW: Phil, I still a schematic close to the one that you are looking for. It's just too large to copy on my copier. Suggestions?*/
Hmmm......
Is there any wasy way to "segment" the thing up, i.e. take a copy of the left side, the middle, the right side, with just a little overlap so that it can be "reassembled" via an xacto and tape into one schematic?
Or, Kinkos has BIG copiers too I think. I've found them moderately useful at times...
Those M-1's ride rougher than most subway cars except for the Redbirds.
Ouch. When a traction motor drops to the roadbed, that's a
sign of very poor inspection and routine maintenance. As you
said, that hasn't happened on NYCT since the bad old days of the
early 1980s. Unless there is a catastrophic metallurigcal failure,
such as the equalizer bar that snapped under a redbird a few years
ago, these sort of problems can be picked up by simple visual
examination during routine periodic inspection before they become
major failures.
Remember the horrible accident at 30th St. in Philly when a traction motor fell off an M-3 car? This was many years ago, and it claimed lives IIRC. After that they put straps under all the motors, and began
inspecting the fleet a lot more carefully after that. Hopefully, the
M-4's will NEVER have that problem.
Chuck Greene
The LIRR MU cars are *locomotives* are are inspected as such.
Elias
"The LIRR MU cars are *locomotives* are are inspected as such."
And that means exactly what? I didn't mention any LIRR inspection at all in my post. I did say that the TA undertook a massive inspection of motor nose bolts in the 1980s due to a series of derailments due to dropped motors.
I was looking at photos of Vancouvers skytrain, and the cars look a lot like those of Toronto's Scarborough Rapid Transit. I know that Vancouver's is automated, while Scarborough RT is operated by humans, but other than this, are the cars of the same make?
Mark
Yes, the carbodies are the same. Ditto also for the Detroit Peoplemover system.
They were originally made by Hawker Siddeley in Thunder Bay Ontario -- later to become Bombardier/UTDC. Some of the newer Vancouver cars (there are three or four orders, gathering from what is on the builder plates in the cars) and the last one was at Kingston, Ontario (I may be wrong, it's been 3 years since I was on the Skytrain...) The builder plates show the serial, plant built at, and date of delivery.
Are these all linear induction propulsion?
All three systems (Detroit, Vancouver, Toronto) have linear induction propulsion.
-Robert King
Thanks. I was curious since I rode on the Vancouver system but not the others mentioned. There is a nice walkway near the Canada Place pavilion over the freight and Skytrain tracks, so you can see a lot of rail activity.
They are the same, essentially. The Toronto cars have a proper, fully equipped cab while Vancouver and Detriot (as far as I know, haven't actually been to Detroit to see in person) just have a hostler's station type cab.
Thus, in terms of having an operator driving a train of these cars, Detroit, Toronto and Vancouver very basically end up like this without getting into too much detail:
Vancouver, Detroit: Full automation.
Toronto: Semiautomatic - the train beeps, the driver pushes a button, the doors close and the train goes to the next stop and opens the doors. Then when it's time to go, the train will start beeping again. The options to drive the train manually via the in cab signalling or totally manually without signals in Emergency Mode also exists.
-Robert King
Did I miss something? When was the station name on the J changed to Eastern Parkway?
It's been that way for MANY years.
E_DOG
I had not been through it until yesterday. Why then do the maps list it as Broadway Junction?
Broadway Junction was the name on the Canarsie Line signage in my memory. IIRC, the BMT era signs on the J (which survived until the TA's Helvetica-signage era) said EASTERN PARKWAY in large letters, and BROADWAY JUNCTION in snaller type.
Note: once work is finished on the refurbishing of the structure(s) at Boardway/ENY on the Canarsie "L", East New York on the "A" (by fare control), Eastern Parkway on the "J/Z", the entire complex will be referred to Officially as "Broadway Junction" in order to avoid confusion for the ridership.
I would assume that all station platform signage for all 3 lines will be redone to read "Broadway Junction".
BMTman
Do you think they will go to the expense of re-tileing the A line?
Probably not. But I would sermise that pillar name-plates would be redone to reflect the new name.
The tentative schedule for more Acela Express service beween NYP and BOS has been posted on the National Corridor Initiative's Destination:Freedomnewsletter site. Scroll down to the third article to read it.
I skimmed through it, but how come Bush will be unhappy about the AE service? Did I read it wrong? Well, any condensed info. will help.
Also, I saw a 'speeding' Acela Exp. en route to NYP at Metuchen at exp. track #2 at around 7:20AM last Friday. It sounded like it was in my sleep.
(NOTE: At Metuchen, there is a REALLY LOUD track switch that starts right in the middle of the platform. The sound that it makes when the wheels hit them is just a delight! [Although, at times it can be loud])
I noticed an odd thing on the same observation. In my early bird hours, (I stayed and observed trains from the first train (rush hour starts at 6:05AM) at Metuchen (7:00AM) to the NEWARK EXPRESS Comet train to Newark at 8:03AM.)
I noticed that NONE of the AM rush hour trains to NY made it ON TIME at Metuchen EXCEPT for an Arrow III MU which arrived 1 minute early (I like early bird trains), and one other made it on time. There are six AM trains from the start of my observation. The thing is, if a train arrives early, THE ENGINEER DOES EVERYTHING HE CAN TO SLOW IT DOWN! I don't like that routine, but that's what happens. And guess what, that same train that was early, arrives LATE at their terminal station (in this case, NYP). It just doesn't make sense.
By the way, NJT was testing all of its PA system from every local station except Trenton. Coincidentally, PATH had a load of signal problems (therefore no trains are running), so the PA advised that all travelers stay on the NJT train into NY and then go from there.
It was a great time. Although, ALL 3-4 Washington bound AMTRAK trains on exp. track #3 NEVER MADE IT PAST 50mph AT METUCHEN! I REALLY WANT TO KNOW WHY!
What also bugs me is that AMTRAK's work crew and their trains have blocked off a section of local track #4 past Newark Penn Sta. WHAT IS WRONG WITH AMTRAK? THEY'VE CLOSED IT OFF FOR 2 WEEKS AND I DON'T KNOW WHY REPLACING A SECTION OF TRACK AND REPLACING THE ROCKS THERE TAKES MORE THAN 2 WEEKS! IS AMTRAK SLEEPING OR SOMETHING?
This gets ALL NJT trains LATE to their service because they need to keep a slow speed limit to the track switch right adjacent to the Hunter Connection for the Raritan trains.
Well.... Responses would be GREATLY APPRECIATED.
: )
Railfan Pete.
"I skimmed through it, but how come Bush will be unhappy about the AE service? Did I read it wrong? Well, any condensed info. will help."
It didn't say Bush was unhappy about the Acela Express but with the railroad retirement bill now winding through Congress.
I think there's an error on the Web site's tentative schedule. I suspect 2172's times should be PM vs. AM, as there's already a 7 AM departure (and PM would fit the numbering scheme as well).
great. now im going to have to ask my dad o go out to Worcester or Boston.
There are two option orders to the R142 and one I believe to the R142A. All R142As as said before go to the 6. How is the R142 going to work. Before the primary order which goes up to the 6900s is finished, is the 2 going to be all R142 and if so are there going to be cars left over for the 3 and 5 before we start worrying about the option orders? Also, which is scheduled for R142s first, the 3 or 5? I assume the 5 because it has the oldest cars. And are there any proposals as to what year 2002 or 2003 the entire deal will be done? My guesses are:
1) The primary order for the R142s will be finished by the end of 2001 or VERY early 2002 and the 2 line will be all R142.
2) The first option order for the R142s {already accepted} will take place immediately after and by mid-to-late 2002 the 5 will have half R142 half R62. Other cars to go to 3 line?
3) The second option order for the R142s {also accepted} will finish by first quarter 2003 and all cars will go to the 3.
4) 6 line will be all R142A by mid-2002
Please respond.
The 5 line will get the R142 before the 3 line. The 5 line will be all R142. Before all of this happens, the 2 line will become all R142 which is halfway there in the process.
okay im back off vacation and the #2 sould be all r142 by at least december if there sets would stop having problems the #5 sould have r142 when the 2 gets theres the #3 will get the first option order and be r142 the r62 will be given to the #7 and the #5 will not have half r142 r62 and why
r142man
The primary order of the R142's are for the #2 and #6 lines.
The Bombardiers' R142 orders go to the #2 - 7th Av. Exp. MTA has ordered so far, 1030 cars of the R142 type (and as you know, Bombardiers' go to the #2).
The Kawasaki's R142 orders all go to the #6 - Pelham, Lexington Local line.
The #2 line is scheduled to be ENTIRELY R142's by the end of 2001. The #6 line is expected a short while after. The ratio and rarity of the R142 trains currently on the #2 line is approx:
1:4-5 trains (more or less depending on the time of day) are R142's. There are only 13 R142 trainsets ready for the #2 line as we speak.
The ratio on the #6 line is approx.:
1:4-6 trains (more or less...) are R142's. The remainder of the fleet uses R62(A) and RARELY uses Redbird equipment.
As of now, do NOT expect any or rare R142's on the #3 and #5 lines. (#5 has an exception, I believe there is 1 R142 train for service.) The vast majority of the #5 line uses Redbird equipment, and occasional R62(A)'s.
So far, the #6 line runs on a majority of R62(A) equipment. After all of those are pushed out onto the #7 (most likely), the remainder of the R142's (except for maintenance, storage, waiting for service, etc.) will be available for use on the #5 line.
The #3 line is most likely to retain their R62(A) equipment for the longest period of time. This line uses full-time R62(A) cars and their lifespan remains to around 20 years of usage. I don't know if there'll be enough for FULL-TIME (ALL) R142's on the #3 line, #2 line, #5 line, AND the #6 line. The MTA HAD NOT intended initially for R142's on the #3 & #5. And because of this issue, MANDATORY FULL-TIME SERVICE (R142's) FOR THE #2 and #6 line will NOT be taken away to the #3 and #5 lines.
The best bet is that the IRT Flushing Line will be all R62(A)'s or the 'high-technological' trains that I read in the newspaper article given to me by 'harry' dated 'September 2000'.
Responses are pending and will be appreciated.
: )
Railfan Pete.
really but the #5 needs new cars i love 2 but the % is geting r142s to
really but the #5 needs new cars i love 2 but the 5 is geting r142s to
Golden also cited the horrible transit conditions in southwest Brooklyn.
"Both the N and R trains are among the worst in the system," said the councilman. "Things are only going to get worse when construction starts on the Gowanus Expressway."
Daily News story
An interesting contrast of the many statements about the importance of the ferry on the one hand and the approx 100 riders a day.
That's one subway car.
About 3 months ago NY Waterways cited a lack of ridership to cancel the LIC - 34th Street Ferry. This service was very convenient for me since I could drive to the ferry terminal in LIC and then ride the boat.
Triboro Coach operates only ONE express bus daily from Astoria to Manhattan, which makes it extremely inconvenient to use. As for trains - well I now have to take bus to N, then change at 59th for downtown 6, then another bus - don't ask me to walk - my knees are shot!
When we found out the service was being cancelled, several passengers started a petition drive, letter writing, etc. We were promised that another operator would pick up the service "SOON". We've given up hope!!
Meanwhile I drive to work (yeah I know - booo... hissss....) - but until I get arthroscopic surgery done its the only way to go!
I did get to ride that ferry once, as a partial attempt to duplicate what it was like to ride NY-Babylon 100 years ago:
34th-LIC ferry
(connecting bus to LIC station--shhh--don't tell)
Diesel via non-electric Montauk branch to Babylon (I imagined I could smell coal smoke and hear chuffing noises)
IMO, that ferry died of neglect. If they could have arranged an interline ticket so that people could pay a combined fare LIRR-ferry more people might have taken advantage of it and relieved some pressure on Hunterspoint/7 Line and the East River tunnels.
Exactly!! It wasn't marketed - it is as if NY Waterways never really cared for it to begin with. Many LIRR commuters did not even know the service existed. Seems all they cared about were their NJ/NY runs.
And NY Waterways cancelled it in spite of the sweetheart deals they got with the Port Authority - they got to keep all the revenue from the LIC parking lot and didnt pay any rent for the lot or the dock.
The LIRR didn't really support it. They extended a few of their Hunterspoint trains to LIC and that was that.
How much was the ferry? The one time I rode it they didn't collect my fare. Remember that an LIRR commuter pays the same to go to LIC as they pay to go all the way to Penn. So how much more would they be willing to pay to ride two buses and a ferry to get to their final destination?
The ferry was $3.00 one way - I used to buy a monthly pass which cost $85.00. The fare included free transfer to a connecting NY Waterways bus which went across 34th Street. NY Waterways didnt do much to promote it either - after its demise I spoke to several Astoria residents who would have used it HAD they known it was there. For me it was a very convenient "park and ride".
They also charged $3 to park in the lot, but you could park for free in the "driveway" just outside the paid area of the lot for free if you got there early enough.
I was just perusing Michael Adler's new Route Map on this site. The MTA could learn a thing or two here.
The transfers are much clearer. Note the Canal Street transfer depicting both the "bridge" and mainline stations separately.
The express vs. local stops are clearer too, and "diamond" expresses are actually depicted as such.
Sure, it's more angular, but this makes it much clearer, and not nearly as confusing as this 1972 map, which also employs some of the same design elements.
The only thing missing are the bus transfers and other connecting information, but I think this same design could be employed in a printed version while adding that other information as well.
Anybody know what design software was used?
Keystone Pete
Also, the transfer depictions more accurately represent the length and direction of the transfer.
I think he uses MS Paint to draw the maps freehand...
Dave wrote: I think he uses MS Paint to draw the maps freehand...
That's correct and still is! Every single maps I've made is from MS Paint program including nearly 100% look-alike history maps of 1967, 1968, 1969, 1974 and 1978 NYC Subway Maps. Everything's by hand (via mouse)
I'm experimenting using MS Image Composer 1.0 that came with MS Front Page 97 using Subway Fonts for route markers on one of my map to see how it'll look.
Wow! How do you manage to get it that way? What tools do you use, or do you do it pixel-by-pixel?
American Pig,
I guess I'm used to using MS Paint program ... The tools are there which is simple to use, but be forewarned, it can be a time-consuming to make a map. Time-consuming is not a problem for me since I like to make my maps to be easy to read and view online/offline as much as possible.
Mike the Mailman
Mike:
Just wanted to compliment you on the absolutely superb subway map.... Yours is so much better than what else is currently offered. Congratulations!
When I'm ready to put the finishing touches on a number of photo books on the New York City metropolitan area systems I'm currently working on (Staten Island Rapid Transit, New York and Queens County Railway and Steinway Lines, Manhattan Elevateds, Newark City Subway, the BMT Lines in Brooklyn, etc.) -- part of my Traction Extra series -- perhaps I could engage you to do the maps. Also, please note that you may have free access to any material in my library; some of the maps I have are quite old.
Again, a very professional job extremely well done.
Best regards,
Joe Saitta
Most of us are engaged in transit photography. For years, I have been purchasing 100% of my cameras, film, darkroom supplies, etc. from B&H. The amount spent is at least $10,000 per year, and I consider that to be a good customer. Their selection and service have been adequate, and prices on a par with most other New York City camera stores. However, a few weeks ago, I discovered that Adorama on 18th Street (just east of 6th Avenue) opened earlier on Sunday, allowing a quicker retreat from New York City traffic, and made a nice purchase there. Yesterday, I again made a substantial purchase at Adorama. I must say that I'm far more satisfied with Adorama: parking is right on the block, the store, while smaller, has a far friendlier staff, the selection is good and prices are the same (at least for all the items I purchase) as at B&H, you get out of there much more quickly (as opposed to the minimum of three conga lines you have to stand on to complete your purchase at B&H), and they will give you large boxes to pack your purchased items in so you can easily carry them on a travel cart, instead of lugging plastic bags back to the car (as opposed to constantly fighting and waiting for boxes they always claim are not available at B&H, where the packing personnel have many times been quite rude). In addition, I'm still smarting from a 1985 incident at B&H where I purchased a supposedly brand new Canon EOS-1N camera (value of about $2,500 with the lenses), only to discover that the camera was not new, was defective (viewfinder LEDs broken, missing the protective plastic sheet on the pressure plate, battery weak, a few other miscellaneous faults). A trip was necessary to return the camera I assumed was a demonstrator. They grudgingly replaced it, the new camera was ok. When I requested replacing the two rolls of film wasted before discovering, they only gave me one roll, refused to reimburse me for the film processing - and then, knife in my back - when the single roll of film they so generously gave me was developed, it too was used and the photos were taken in and round the B&H store. My suggestion: go to Adorama or seek out other stores.
Another suggestion... have you ever heard of J & R ?? they also have a website as well .. last winter i broke my tripod at atlantic
street upstairs before waiting for the LIRR ( the construction site was not well lit ) broke the tripod head should have replaced just
that instead in my haste replaced the tripod with a velbon tripod ( oh well it worked well on the #2 REDBIRD ! ) ....wwooooppppeeeeee
last time i was there nyc ( my home sweet home birthplace 1 03 51 ) is a nice big place with alot of places to go !! ...lol !!
& man have you seen the subway system there ?? blows me away everytime !! ....lol !!
Just a thought. The DOT tells the TA that only one side of the bridge can be used for rail service. (This problem could be eliminated by plowing up the asphalt and giving the whole bridge to the subway like it was supposed to be.) Which service would the TA pick? The North Side 6th Avenue, or the South Side Broadway. I'm willing to bet the North because of the problems with turning trains around at Grand St. Installing a simple diamond crossover North of the station could eliminate this. It would only take the TA contractors 25 years to install this, so it's worth it.
25 years to install a switch? They built the entire 63rd St connection trackage in what, 4 years?
25 years for 1 switch.The MTA had to reinstall 3 miles worth of switches 7 months.
(The DOT tells the TA that only one side of the bridge can be used for rail service. (This problem could be eliminated by plowing up the asphalt and giving the whole bridge to the subway like it was supposed to be.) Which service would the TA pick? The North Side 6th Avenue,
or the South Side Broadway.)
As per the President of the TA in a presentation to City Planning several years ago: "The A/B tracks are a critical part of our network; the H tracks are important too, but the A/B tracks are critical." He was protesting the "Lah-De-Dah" attitude toward getting the bridge fixed.
It would be the North Side, because you would still have access to Broadway via the Montague Street tunnel.
I just heard that the TA will be holding a college fair sometime in October for those who wish to further their education and their title within the TA. I haven't seen any notices out in the field regarding this.
Is this true, and if so does any TA employee know if the TA is reimbursing tuition costs if one does enroll? Thanx.
They are if you have a B or above average
That's nice, the only money I can get back is from the union and the course has to be job releated and there is a limit ($150?) I can get back and you must pass the course with a certain average.
Yo:
I read a bit here: http://www.nycsubway.org/ind/indsecond.html
..of an 'enormous' unused station-shell (whatever that is) below s.4th street in brooklyn which was to be part of the IND aborted second system. The obvious question here is: does it really exist? has anyone here been there? is it under some random manhole cover like the old LIRR atlantic av. tunnel?
ALSO: I'm helping out a friend of mine who's working on a new book on items under the streets of NYC, part of that being the subways - and as such we'd like to get some good shots of some unused portions of the system (like city hall) - does anyone know who one might contact to gain entry to such a location? is there anyone at the transit museum that handles such things? anyone know a name or number to contact?
Thanks, well in advance, for any 411. as an added ransom, anyone that can come up with a good contact re: access to city hall or perhaps this mystery s4th street if it exists, wins a cold frosty beverage of choice, or some other reward... ...feel free to email me back if yee don't want to post random names and numbers.
We have W.4th on 6th ave, A proposed S.4th in Williamsburg, maybe an E.4th on the 2nd ave subway...
To complete the compass, we'd just need a N.4th street stop...BUT WHERE?
Its the Broadway Station on the Crosstown 'G' line. If you go all the way to the end (Opposite of where the exit stairs are), all you have to do is look up. And you will notice how high the ceiling is. Also if you look at the walls you can see where stairs USED to be to gain access to the station "shell". I think you can still get in but you need to ask around. There are 6 trackways and 4 platforms if Im not mistaken.
Also another good example on a Station Shell is Utica Ave on the A/C lines in Brooklyn.
There's quite a bit of info about it at joseph brennen's website, there's a link to it in the abandoned stations section on this site.
as such we'd like to get some good shots of some unused portions of the system (like city hall) - does anyone know who one might contact to gain entry to such a location? is there anyone at the transit museum that handles such things? anyone know a name or number to contact?
Its the Broadway Station on the Crosstown 'G' line. If you go all the way to the end (Opposite of where the exit stairs are), all you have to do is look up. And you will notice how high the ceiling is. Also if you look at the walls you can see where stairs USED to be to gain access to the station "shell". I think you can still get in but you need to ask around. There are 6 trackways and 4 platforms if I'm not mistaken.
A friend of mine was fortunate enough to get into South 4th many years ago. Access was not via any kind of staircase, but more of an inclined plane (think steep ramp). The best way to describe the layout of the station would be take a cross-section of the Hoyt-Schermerhorn station as wide as the G's right-of way and that's what was built, more or less. Last I heard, about 4 years ago, was that the space was being divvied up into offices. Whether that has happened or not I don't know (and would love to find out). Ditto for Utica Ave.
Getting into other abandoned facilities officially is impossible or next to it. Especially IRT City Hall. Guiliani's security fetish has seen to that. The Transit Museum used to run tours of these disused facilities a few years ago, but no longer.
This is not to say that you can never see those places, you just can't do it officially. I was extremely fortunate a few years back to have known a person who was very kind and escorted me onto IRT (and BMT-Lower) City Hall platforms, lower-42nd IND and Myrtle/B'Way. We lost touch after that, alas. It was a fluke meeting, and we just "hit it off."
I, too, would give my left nut (proverbially speaking--put the pliers down NOW) to get into South 4th, Roosevelt Ave. (IND-2), Utica Ave., Myrtle/Flatbush, Nevins St., Bergen St. and 9th Ave. and do a huge photo spread.
Of course, you can risk your life--and your freedom--by trespassing (on your own) into those areas, but I think (almost) everyone on this group would caution against it in the absolute strongest terms possible. Myself included. While there are a lot of places I'd love to visit, Rikers Island, the ICU or the City Morgue ain't any of 'em.
If you're interested in using (for this book) any of my photos of the abondoned stations that you've seen on this site, please contact me off-list.
Cheers,
PJ Dougherty
Publisher, Tracks of the NYC Subway
Utica Ave is still whole. Half of Roosevelt platform still exists plus much trackway.
Utica Ave is still whole.
Well... the Utica Avenue shell never was a full station, it's only as long as the width of the lower level. If what you mean is that it's not been taken over for some other purpose... I don't know, not having personally been there, what info I have comes from Joe Korman's website.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
The latter, yes.
Quite interesting about Bway. It seems just a bit odd that with it and utica the trackway/platforms are only the length of the tracks below. You'd think that while they were building it they'd just complete the whole damned station.
I was lucky enough to take one of them transit tours that stopped at city hall. Its a damn shame about you-know-who's security fetish.
I realize many many folks on this board would highly caution against even considering inspecting such locations without authorization, etc. and understand fully why. Theres a damn good reason most of these places are off-limits, considering the danger involved... (nevermind the dirt involved! heh!). Still, i might poke around a bit and see. i've been in and around plenty of similar locations over the years, supervised and otherwise, and consider myself pretty responsible and smart enough not to take stupid risks. if it looks remotely dangerous, i sure ain't going to touch it.
As for photos, i have a few myself, but i'll put in the good word to the author. I'm not even sure how much will be photos and how much will be straight text. I wasn't half into photography now as i was when i took one or 2 of the tours and got into a few other odd locations in the system years back - so if you can't imagine i've been kicking myself just a bit!
Bway... I should have known. I had an odd feeling there was more to that station. I already heard about Utica, and the extra platform at roosevelt in queens... now how to gain access... hmmm...
RWS gives guided tours of these areas and manymore of Unused NY, Email me for more info
What/Who is RWS? Thanks.
Well, Seven and I are RWS. If you want further info, contact me or Seven by email.
RWS are HOOLIGANS! =)
Here's a link to Joe Korman's IND Second System page. From this page are links to the Utica Avenue Subway and diagrams of the Utica Avenue station, showing clearly the track and platform layout. There are also descriptions of other uncompleted shells and provisions.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Thanks for the link. Fascinating! Joe Korman has done fine work for all of us.
I must second that. Very good info. I knew about Utica Av, but Bway on the G? who knew? I wonder if the stub tracks on the G north of nostrand av. were ment to connect to one of these lines... Me thinks i have much reading to do!
The middle track at Bedford-Nostrand splits in two just past the station then comes to an end. It was supposed to be an extension along Lafayette Ave. turning slightly onto Stanhope St. and eventually joining the Myrtle Ave.-Central Ave. line.
ah... it makes more sense now.
I had no idea before this week that the provisions for the 2nd system were so extensive. It's just a shame it never got built...
Yeah, especially the 2nd Ave. line. It's almost as if it's had a curse put on it.
I was in a set at the north moter of a N train. I did not get the car numbers, I was to buzzie talking to Coney Island Master Tower about something. The box is right behind the brake handle, so it is hard to get to. So now it's the slants turn to get the Enablers.
Robert
One problem that I can think of is on the older cars that getting them. The T/O had to hold the button untill the C/R puts the key into the Door controll and turns it to on. So on OPTO the T/O has to hit the botton and turn the key at the same time. This can be done on the Controller side but not on the other side. Any idears of how the TA might over come the Problem.
Robert
The door enablers only affect door control panels in other cabs, the operator's cab has the control panels bypass the enabler.
That's just what I would do. The TA might have something different.
Good question. Perhaps they may instruct the T/O to center his/her reverser in order to disengage the enabler.
I may be wrong, but, I think there is an OPTO rule (which is not followed) that the reverser has to be centered at every station during OPTO operation. AN ORTO qualified T/O told me this.
Being an OPTO qualified T/O, we are not required to center our reversers when opening the doors. The only thing that we do have to do is keep the controller in full service.
On a 44/46. hard to do that on a 68? >G<
If a train run past a red light what does the TO do?
What does the T/O do when he bypass a red light triggering the egmergency breaks?
From his grip (Bag) get the phone number for the union/local relgious afflication (church) and a clean pair of underwear.
LOL!!!!!!!!
I don't know, because I've never seen emergency breaks. I have an idea on what a T/O does if the emergency brakes are activated, however.
-Hank
Don't be such an @$$...answer him!
I don't know...
Don't be such a kid, and read some other parts of the site.
-Hank
I don't remember when it happened but a youth somehow got a set of subway handles, signed the train register at 207th Street and ran the A train to Rockaway and back towards 207th. Due to his zealousness, he tripped a signal on the way back and the train went into emergency. He was escorted by TA policemen from the train to TA headquarters and an urine sample was taken for drug testing.
Eventually, his identity was uncovered but how he got the controls remained a mystery.
Michael
It means he's about to get fired and/or drug/alcohol tested. At this point it's standard procedure for the T/O to get off the train as quickly as possible, run to the next station, catch a cab to the airport, and fly to Panama before the cops catch on.
You forgot the stop at the BAR so he has a reason to show a high BAC!!
Does anyone have any track maps of the 38th st yard area from when the El's were still existing?
I believe you may find it in the OOP book, "The Brooklyn Elevated."
again, a novice question.
what is OOP? and is that book out of print or currently available?
thanks
OOP = out of print... which answers the second part of your question. If you can get to the Fall Trolley Extravaganza on Saturday, 8 September, Holiday Inn, King of Prussia, PA, you might well find a copy... for a price. Regardless of that, the show is worth a carpool run if you can arrange it. There will be a couple of streetcar layouts and possibly some subway or elevated layouts as well, I don't know for sure... not as big as East Penn's every-other-year meet in the spring but worth the trip nonetheless. It's sponsored by the folks at MTS Imports.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Come on over and say hi! I'll be there again.
This might be the last Fall Trolley Show at this location - the Holiday Inn that Joel uses for his show is undergoing renovations next year and I don't think the hall will be available ....
--Mark
I may not make it myself... that Sunday I'm flying to Denver on business for a week and the wife's unhappy enough about that... we'll see. But if I do come I'll definitely stop by!
Oh, and to everyone else out there: I'll put in a plug for Mark's tapes - he's got some excellent ones of the system and also of Toronto.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Make sure to stop by Mark's table. He has some great tapes.
I can't make the trolley show I don't think, I'll be going to the Hoboken Festival on the same day, unless my plans change.
Chuck Greene
I am a Volunteer at the Transit museum. I do my best to tell about the Subway cars in the museum. What was interesting was a Retired Signal Tower operator was showing kids how signals and interlockings work. He pulled out one lever and the tracks moved. Then he pulled out a lever then the signal was double red, went blank then said bottom green proceed on main route. What was interesting is he pushed the lever back in, and it then turned back red. I thought Homeballs do that by themselves. So if he forgets to push it back in is it possible to still say bottom green? Also, is it possible for a Tower operator to give a Motorman a Bottom Green lineup and yet the tracks appear to be giving a diverging route setup?
Nope! If a train is on the track circuit related to that signal or the one beyond it, the signal will stay red regardless of the lever position unless __________________________ ?
By the way, were you one of the group I saw on July 20th (Friday) at the back of museum in the R-33 Bluebird?
The tower operator does not directly control the color of the
bottom light. There is a single red handle for each home signal.
When the handle is pulled out (on the type of machine you are
talking about) the signal will change from Red over Red to a
better aspect IF the block which the signal protects is clear
AND any switches which the signal protects are lined up. Whether
a bottom yellow or a bottom green is displayed at that time
is controlled by the position of the switch. There are many
places in the system where the main route (bottom green) is
actually the one which is physically diverging.
On more modern pushbutton interlocking machines, each signal can
be set to either stick or fleeting mode. Stick, which is the
default mode, means that after the train passes the signal, it
stays red, and the signal button has to be pushed again to clear
it. Fleeting is selected by pushing in the button and turning it
to the right so it latches. When a train passes, the signal will
turn red, but will then turn yellow and green (top head) as the
blocks clear up.
You can set signals to fleet on older machines. It all depends on how it is wired.
You can set signals to fleet on older machines. It all depends on how it is wired.
The original question was specific to the NYCT system.
On NYCT, the older machines will only do the equivalent of
fleeting. They can not be made to do stick signals, with
a few rare exceptions.
Well, this I let the subway buffs decide, because I know so little about tower length and operation.
So here are the places where the possible master towers will be: Choose 2 for the bronx, 2 for manhattan, 2 for brooklyn, 2 for staten island, 1 for queens
Bronx:
149 Stret- The Hub
Claremont Parkway
Fordham Center
East 180 Street
Co-Op City Boulevard
Morrison Avenue
Manhattan:
Whitehall Street
14 Street
Grand Street- East Broadway
42 Street
125 Street
Brooklyn:
Myrtle/ Flatbush Avenues
Utica Avenue
Kings County Plaza
Queens:
J.F.K. Airport Terminal 7-9
Lefters Boulevard
Staten Island:
St. George Terminal
Tottenville
Clinton
Jewett Avenue
Staten Island Mall
It's gonna get even hotter over the next few days as temps soar into the 90s everywhere. And the relief south Queens and Rockaway residents were getting will be eliminated too.
I wonder what the hottest subway station will be?
The hottest station I have been in recently has been the 34th and Broadway station. I was an OVEN down there. S.Ferry and Times Square are pretty bad too. Most stations near river tubes are cooler, as the cooler air from tunnels under the river gets pushed ahead of trains and into stations. This is most noticable at the N,R,W Lexington ave station.
Also the Redbirds on the 7 have the worst A/C. The B division cars have better A/C overall, especially the R32s, R40s, and R68s. The R46's have good A/C also.
Hopefully ConEd can keep up with the heat, because if failures happen they will mess up signals and disrupt service.
So what do you think will be the hottest places in the subway this week?
Fulton Street on the 2/3, oven down there, I was just there this afternoon...Now I have to put up with this station for the month of August, goodie...:-\
UNION SQUARE. Sure they have fans there but they are not everywhere. The minute I walked down there to meet a friend who is a Train Operator I started to sweat like mad. Its supposed to be hotter on Tuesday. Im glad I can wear shorts to work because tomorrow thats what Im doing :)
Anthony
Alot of the IRT stations seem quite hot. I've heard in the past they used waterproofing that helped trap heat.
Maybe you guys out there have seen this before but nothing compares to 95th Street & Fort Hamilton on the R Line. Absolutely oppressive heat down there. Good God, I run running for the stairs after ten seconds. I was in a Turkish bath. I've never seen anything like on the subway before. There was one great end to it, however. When I got to the top of the stairs there was a Baskin-Robbins Ice Cream Shop. Two scoops of chocolate chip, one of butter pecan,and one of pralines and cream and I was on my way=======to 86th Street to walk some of the ice cream off and to avoid that station.
Isn't the Grand Central 7 platform one of the hottest spots?
Yeah the temp. goes up by a few notches there. But doesnt that station have A/C in some parts?
Yeah that's pretty bad too, plus the oil smell.
Grand Central has A/C on the 4/5/6 platforms. It works really good in certain spots. I think Times Square on the 7 is hotter, that and 168 on the 1 (when the fans are shut off).
Grand Central on the 4,5,6. Man it feels good down there.
If I'm in that area, I'll use my unlimited Metrocard and just stand on the platform and cool off.
Aren't there buildings there? Even the actual terminal is air conditioned.
Yeah those A/C's should eb EVERYWHERE in the system.
CLARK ST 2/3
Stand a pillar or three away from the mouth of
the southbound tube... it's a turbocharged hair dryer,
shirt straightener, and body refresher all in one!
Hold onto your cap!
City Hall on the N/R. I've had to go there every weekday this summer, and it's always at least 105 down there.
I think 14th Street on the 4/5/6 is the hottest because the trains remain stopped there the longest, due to the delays caused by the gap fillers.
Eventhough we went thru this last summer, I'll repeat what I said then: both terminals of the E line. At WTC, the heat of the waiting E trains coupled with the heat coming up from Bway-Nassau as the n/b A & C trains arrive and Jamaica Center as you get the heat from the J line rising along with the heat from the E trains.
It seems to me that indoor stations with the most trains have the most heat. Downtown, the Broadway/Nassau/Fulton and Chambers Street stations are brutal. My home station on the F, with fewer trains, is cool in comparison.
The TA doesn't really need A/C everywhere. If they just installed it in destination stations, and ran it when it was over 85 degrees more than two days in a row, heat wouldn't be a problem.
72 street on the broadway line is hot as hell inthe summer
I wonder what the hottest subway station will be?
If you have time in your leisure, you may take a trip all the way to the end of the Queens Blvd. E line to Jamaica Center. That is the HOTTEST station that I have experienced recently. My dad and I were lucky enough to get on a R46 E train which had very good A/C. Once I stepped out, my skin started flaming and sweating as well.
I think too much heat is radiated onto the station via the third rail. I recall reading a passage about the R142(A)'s and read about how they cycle power back into the third rail as to prevent the heat emitted in subway tubes. Hope that will help.
The hottest station I have been in recently has been the 34th and Broadway station. I was an OVEN down there. S.Ferry and Times Square are pretty bad too. Most stations near river tubes are cooler, as the cooler air from tunnels under the river gets pushed ahead of trains and into stations. This is most noticable at the N,R,W Lexington ave station.
I have noticed another HOT station, and that is the World Trade Center station on the E platform (not the A and C trains, and it was HOT even in the WINTER!, must've been like 75 to 80 degrees in there [no heat is ever installed in subway tunnels]).
Also the Redbirds on the 7 have the worst A/C. The B division cars have better A/C overall, especially the R32s, R40s, and R68s. The R46's have good A/C also.
It really depends on which Flushing Redbird you ride on. If you're unlucky, you may get on one which only has several radiator fans on the ceiling and no A/C, or some selected Redbirds (like #9661) which HAS A/C and can really cool you off on a hot day.
Yes, the B division-type cars, R32's, R40's, and R68's have the best performance A/C. I believe some R38's have good A/C as well.
Hopefully ConEd can keep up with the heat, because if failures happen they will mess up signals and disrupt service.
What is ConEd in charge of for the city? I've seen a couple of ConEdison trucks and man-hole covers stating "ConEdison". Is anyone able to tell me what ConEd is in charge for the city? Thanks.
So what do you think will be the hottest places in the subway this week?
I think Jamaica Center, 34 St - 6 Av. Broadway, World Trade Center (E platforms), and of course, the elevated El lines in the Bronx and Brooklyn where they may receive direct sunlight.
: )
Railfan Pete.
Hey guys - you ever stand outside in front of a window airco unit as it blows out the HOT air. Where do you think all the heat escapement from thousands of air conditioned subway car evaporators goes - right into --(and trapped by) the tunnels. Not to mention the traction motor and electrical gear heat - and brake shoe heat (ever try to change HOT brake shoes on an auto you just stopped driving??) - and heat from resistors and dynamic braking-- heat from millions of light fixtures - soda (refrigerated) machines and (in some stations) food and beverage
shops cooking hot dogs and you name it---plus
electrical equipment line side fixtures --all motor operated (and refrigerator generating) machinery produces HEAT. Then you have the hot outside air
and sun scorching the street and sidwalks and heat
wafting up and down thru sidewalk subway grates and up and down the stairways. Finally, you have got the cumulative heat of 98.6 degrees each human rider & crew members multuiplied by the millions (some without deodorent!!!) - anyway - just throwing some
HVAC facts your way
>>> I think too much heat is radiated onto the station via the third rail. I recall reading a passage about the R142(A)'s and read about how they cycle power back into the third rail as to prevent the heat emitted in subway tubes. <<<
Pete, you should be in advertizing. You have a knack for passing off pure BS with such great authority. It is the air conditioning in the trains that make the stations hot, not the third rail. You have twisted what you read about the R142(A)s. I assume that what you read was about dynamic braking which would reduce heat from friction braking.
>>> It really depends on which Flushing Redbird you ride on. If you're unlucky, you may get on one which only has several radiator fans on the ceiling and no A/C, <<<
You might have noticed that they have removed the non air conditioned cars from the #7 line. That's why they are running only 10 car train sets.
>>> What is ConEd in charge of for the city? <<<
You have got to be kidding.!!!
Tom
Pete, with all due respect, you have inserted your foot into your mouth again! The heat in the subway comes from the air conditioning cooling the cars and the heat generated from the cars themselves. And to think I started to agree with your post about the heat at Jamaica Center and WTC! I have been a NYCT Train Operator of 20 years. I can't tell you how many times I have walked the tracks and had trains pass me by while I was down there. And you know what? Even though the third rail is "hot" it is just an expression because 600 volts is hot!. I can assure you that the third rail does not generate any heat whatsover!
I'm exhausted but I'll give this a try anyways (hint: pardon the mistakes - I'm sure several have crept in and I probably would be able to write more clearly after some sleep too...):
The third rail actually does produce some heat because it is a less than wonderful conductor that loses electrical energy to heat as electricity travels from the points where electricity is fed into the third rail to locations along the length of the third rail where train pickup shoes contact it to collect electricity. The third rail acts as a slight resistance (the steel