Anyone else here feel that the MTA is going to treat the lines from Canal to DeKalb in a similar fashion to, let's say, the Queens Blvd line from Roosevelt to Queens Plaza? On paper, both are identical. Both use separate ROWs to skip their respective stops. The bridge line makes no stops between Canal and Dekalb, the tunnel makes 6 (7 if you count the bypass until Pacific). This little loose interpretation of "express run" can justify an action I know the MTA will take upon reopening the south side (I can see the posters now):
(N) (R) - LATE NIGHT / WEEK END
Trains run express from DeKalb ave to Canal st. Passengers wishing to travel to stations City Hall through Lawrence from Brooklyn must take a northbound N, R, or Q to Canal st, where you can transfer to a Southbound N or R. Passengers wishing to travel from stations City Hall through Lawrence to Manhattan and Queens must take a southbound N or R to Dekalb ave, where you can transfer to a northbound N, R, or Q.
What is wrong with that? A tourist (or anyone else) going from City Hall to Times Square will have one helluva long assed ride. What about people who planned on going from the SI ferry to the World Trade Center? Most people would not learn of this until entering fare control, and without an unlimited ride card will not wish to exit to take a nearby line. They will end up severly diverted, and because one direction will still be viable no shuttle bus or train service will be provided to take off the extra half hour the diversion will cause.
Just some food for thought on GOs that haven't happened yet.
I don't know that people wouldn't know of the GO until after entering fare control... don't many of the stations have separate fare controls for north and south --- they'd block those entrances off with instructions to use the 1/9 for much of what you're concerned about.
There are only two stations like that, Cortland and Rector.
What is wrong with that? A tourist (or anyone else) going from City Hall to Times Square will have one helluva long assed ride. What about people who planned on going from the SI ferry to the World Trade Center? Most people would not learn of this until entering fare control, and without an unlimited ride card will not wish to exit to take a nearby line. They will end up severly diverted, and because one direction will still be viable no shuttle bus or train service will be provided to take off the extra half hour the diversion will cause.
But this is no different from what happens everywhere else a local is diverted to the express tracks. Why treat it any differently?
I agree that GO's should be publicized much better than they are. A tourist about to enter the station at City Hall should be directed across the street to the 2/3, which, incidentally, get to Times Square much faster than the N/R, and a tourist about to enter the station at Whitehall should be directed over to the 1, which stops closer to WTC anyway (although I can't imagine anyone paying $1.50 to go from South Ferry to the WTC -- if I'm feeling particularly lazy, I might take the train or bus if I'm using an unlimited or I have an unused transfer on my card, but it's really a very short walk).
Are S/A's permitted to give out block tickets (or transfers of some other sort) to passengers who enter a station then realize that, with the GO in effect, they'd be better off taking a different line to begin with?
Block tickets are only issued if there is NO service at that station due to a blockage, etc.
If you enter a station accidentally and there is service available, then you're out of luck.
That's awfully kind of the TA.
Actually, most tourists seem to read the signs and ask questions if they're not sure. It's the regular riders who seem to be in total ignorance of what's going on on their lines.
It doesn't help that GO's are publicized very poorly, if at all.
Hint: Regular passengers have no reason to look in the direction of the token booth. GO's posted there will naturally be ignored.
Hint: PA systems, in stations and on trains, are notoriously unreliable. Announcements that can't be heard can't be heeded. It would help, also, if the TA would cut back on the unnecessary canned announcements.
At a minimum, the GO poster should be posted in each car of every train affected and in at least ten places on each platform affected (unless the platform is blocked off). Detailed announcements should direct passengers to alternate routes (of all the express rides I've had on the N/R in the past months, not once did I hear the C/R recommend the 6 as an alternate to the N/R local stations between 14th and Canal) and, when the time comes, should explicitly direct them to trains running the other way (tourists, especially, may not know that at a typical station with two island platforms, they'll need to get to the other platform to go back) -- which, incidentally, should be at the very first point at which the reverse transfer is possible, even if it means distributing transfers, reprogramming turnstiles, or letting everyone in for free. Announcements should clearly distinguish between "This train is running express, but the following train will be making local stops" and "All (insert line) trains are running express until 3:00 this afternoon" -- too often a vague "This train is running express" sends scores of passengers to the platform, only to wait for another train that will be bypassing the same station. The poster should also hang on other lines that carry many passengers who transfer into the line under GO, as well as every line, without exception, that loses a transfer due to a GO. (For instance, last week, the F was running express and bypassing 4th Avenue, a transfer point from the R. Signs should have been posted in every R train warning passengers to get the F somewhere else or be prepared to do a lot of unnecessary backtracking.)
Ideally, I'd like to see full systemwide GO information available to the public, on request, at each station. The TA should automatically generate a map, similar to The Map, graphically depicting all of the GO's in effect. (There would easily be a half-dozen or more released per week: weekend overnight, weekend daytime, weekday overnight, weekday midday, weekday rush hour -- and tack on some more for the GO's that take place only one day of the weekend, or take place only on Tuesday nights, or take place only on Thursday and Friday middays (I'm not making these up), etc. That's fine, since production would be automated -- they would need to be prominently marked with the effective times, though. Perhaps in a few years, stations will be equipped with large electronic displays, which could display this map (along with other information) -- that would avoid printing costs.
GO's often announce when locals run express. They rarely announce when expresses run local. They should. Someone embarking on a long ride might prefer to take a different route rather than sit through a zillion local stops. A few months ago I planned to transfer from the 2 to the 1 at 42nd to go to 86th, since a GO had all 1's running express from 42nd to 72nd, but, fortunately, I was unsure when exactly the 2 began its nighttime local runs so I asked the T/O at Flatbush if he'd be making local stops, and he told me that he'd be running express to 72nd and local from there. Had I not asked, I would have changed trains unnecessarily. Complete information is a good thing.
Oh, and there's no excuse for inaccurate GO's. A GO shouldn't claim that trains are running express from Jay to 4th when they're actually running express to Church with an intermediate stop only at 7th. A GO shouldn't claim that trains are running express on the Sea Beach and stopping at New Utrecht when, in fact, they're not. (It took months before that one was corrected. And since there's no email address on the MTA web site, there's no easy way to submit corrections.)
(Alex, thanks for the opportunity to rant. Please don't take any of this personally.)
They post GO notices in subway cars. Then you have assholes tearing them down.
Why aren't they checked at each terminal and replaced if necessary? On the B and N express runs from Coney Island (which I've ridden more than a few times), I don't think I've ever seen a poster in the cars -- not to mention the platforms, the mezzanine, or the transfer overpass. (Once the GO wasn't announced either; there were lots of annoyed passengers in my car, including one who was planning on going only one stop.) Surely it wouldn't be too much to ask the T/O, who has to walk from one end of the train to the other anyway, to walk with a stack of posters and a roll of tape.
Dave: I wasn't aware the Sea Beach was even going over the Manny B at all. Has there been a change of any kind? I need to know this because the Sea Beach and the Manhattan Bridge is a very sore point with me, and when I think of my train meandering in that damn Montague tunnel instead of riding majestically over the Manny B, well, a lot of light is taken out of the day for me.
It's not, but it might have to run on the bridge for an occasional GO.
Hint: Regular passengers have no reason to look in the direction of the token booth. GO's posted there will naturally be ignored.
Hint: PA systems, in stations and on trains, are notoriously unreliable. Announcements that can't be heard can't be heeded. It would help, also, if the TA would cut back on the unnecessary canned announcements.
David, first off, don't worry. I've got better things to take personally than folks ranting at my employer. I only get annoyed when they attack me.
Hint 1: They do have a reason to look in the direction of the booth -- that's where the service disruptions tend to get posted where the riding public can't tear them down. If you want to know about them, start there.
Hint 2: I'll grant that the station PAs are not the best (although they are getting better). However, most of the train PAs do work (some of the CRs don't, but that's a different problem); what doesn't seem to work is the passenger's hearing, and occasionally, that part of the brain that is in charge of what is usually referred to 'common sense'. I can (and have) make announcements on trains where all the PA speakers are working, and have passengers tell me I said nothing, did not tell them of re-routes and all sorts of other things, while at the same time getting commendations for my excellent, clear announcements (can't win 'em all).
The GO announcements tend to disappear from cars and platforms for a number of reasons. The top three, in no particular order:
There's so many of them, no one will this one; I'll take it to remember what's going on.
I don't wnat this to happen, so if I remove them all, it won't.
I'm an asshole, and want lots of people to have a really crummy day.
A few months ago I planned to transfer from the 2 to the 1 at 42nd to go to 86th, since a GO had all 1's running express from 42nd to 72nd, but, fortunately, I was unsure when exactly the 2 began its nighttime local runs so I asked the T/O at Flatbush if he'd be making local stops, and he told me that he'd be running express to 72nd and local from there. Had I not asked, I would have changed trains unnecessarily. Complete information is a good thing.
I'm confused here. You knew the local was running express from 42 to 72 due to a GO. This suggests that the express must also be running express in the same area. Why did you want to change at 42 St for the local instead of at 72 St? Having reached 72 St, you then stood a reasonable chance of being told that the train would run local to 96 St.
Hint 1: They do have a reason to look in the direction of the booth -- that's where the service disruptions tend to get posted where the riding public can't tear them down. If you want to know about them, start there.
Sorry, it doesn't work that way. I'm pretty familiar with the subway system. I know where the lines run. With the exception of Queensbridge service, which is explicitly by GO nights and weekends, the map shows service patterns covering all times of the week. If the TA wants to temporarily change those service patterns, it's the TA's responsibility to notify me of the changes. I'm not asking for a personal phone call from Larry Reuter but I think it's reasonable to expect to see notices posted where I will naturally see them before it's too late to revise my travel plans. (IANAL, but the TA might even have a legal responsibility to go out of its way to inform its passengers of any changes to the routes depicted on the map. No, I have no plans to sue.)
Hint 2: I'll grant that the station PAs are not the best (although they are getting better). However, most of the train PAs do work (some of the CRs don't, but that's a different problem); what doesn't seem to work is the passenger's hearing, and occasionally, that part of the brain that is in charge of what is usually referred to 'common sense'. I can (and have) make announcements on trains where all the PA speakers are working, and have passengers tell me I said nothing, did not tell them of re-routes and all sorts of other things, while at the same time getting commendations for my excellent, clear announcements (can't win 'em all).
Most of the train PAs do work, but many are too quiet to hear and some are too loud to hear. Even ones that are properly adjusted are often impossible to hear in a crowded car or on a noisy section of track. That's why announcements can't be relied on as the only means of communication.
Yes, many passengers turn off their ears the moment they board the train. I don't have a solution.
Once again, I'd like to draw attention to the ambiguity in the all-too-common "This train will be running express to (wherever)." Is only this one train diverted (so passengers bound for local stops should get off and wait for the next train) or are all trains diverted (so passengers bound for local stops should stay on board and backtrack)? If nothing else, if there are any C/R's reading this post who make the usual ambiguous announcement, I urge you to add this crucial information from the start.
The GO announcements tend to disappear from cars and platforms for a number of reasons. The top three, in no particular order:
Yes, they disappear, but the TA has the power to make them reappear. At a minimum, posters in trains should be checked and replaced (if necessary) at each terminal and posters (and tape) in stations should be checked and replaced every hour or two. (What are the current procedures? Whatever they are, they're inadequate.)
The TA should also consider making the posters difficult to remove. For instance, not many passengers remove the ads in the cars -- so why not put GO announcements in the advertising slots? Could locking display cases be placed on the platforms?
I'm confused here. You knew the local was running express from 42 to 72 due to a GO. This suggests that the express must also be running express in the same area. Why did you want to change at 42 St for the local instead of at 72 St? Having reached 72 St, you then stood a reasonable chance of being told that the train would run local to 96 St.
Why transfer at 42? Because 72 is hot and has narrow platforms. Since, according to the GO, it made no difference where I transferred, why not use the more comfortable station?
Express trains normally run express. I saw no indications on the TA web site that express trains that weekend would be running local. Why would I stand a reasonable chance of being told that my express train would run local? It's an express. (Now I know better: the TA never bothers posting express-on-local GO's. Sometimes they're easy to derive from other GO's -- e.g., if the C is cut back to WTC or isn't running at all, the A must be running local in Brooklyn -- but in this case there was no indication until the train switched to the local track at 72.)
You'd be suprised to know people steal advertisements. Wonder why there is that metal thing that locks to keep the ad in on the door panels? Do you also see the chipped light borders on some 75 footers?
I'm not surprised at all, but most of the ads make it through the end of the day while often none of the GO posters do.
Speaking of stolen ads, do those T/O's who tape ads over the cab window take them from the car, thereby effectively stealing from the advertiser? The ad used on the B I rode last week was none other than the announcement of Manhattan Bridge changes (facing into the cab). To the T/O's credit, he removed it when he entered the cab, although he didn't put it back where the passengers could see it.
It should be treated differently because most situations would require people to cross the East River twice, through a slow tunnel and an even slower bridge (BTW: The south side is slower than the north side. My D train beat one of those T/O familiarization trains. Maybe they were moving slowly...).
When I rode the F from East Broadway to Brooklyn a few weeks ago, the Manhattan-bound F was running via the C (as per GO). Passengers were instructed (to the extent that they were instructed to do anything at all -- I didn't see any posters at platform level and the northbound track wasn't taped off) to ride to Jay and then backtrack. That's two river crossings and the TA thinks nothing of enacting this GO regularly.
For the ultimate in inconvenience, look at last week's midday GO on the F and G. Myrtle-Willoughby to Bergen is normally a one-seat, six-stop ride. Last week, this was the route: G one stop to Bedford-Nostrand, shuttle to Hoyt, cross over, A/C one stop to Jay, cross over, F "one stop" to 7th Avenue, cross over, F back to Bergen. That's five trains and three crossover transfers. You'd allow that but not the N/R running one way over the bridge? (Don't forget that the N/R in lower Manhattan is closely paralleled by the 1/9 and 4/5. As long as passengers are warned before entering the station, they can walk a block east or west and take a different train.)
What I'm saying is passengers won't know anything until they're in the station, maybe a few will be enlightened before dropping the token or swiping. A majority will not know. As for the G Brooklyn one, I agree it is a bit of a struggle for passengers, but you don't get sent into a different borough in the process. Plus, that was only middays, many passengers in the know could simply rush to make the last unified train or wait until the first one afterward. Plus, the backtracking is a bit more clear cut (though Jay and Hoyt could be a tad confusing). Try figuring out where to cross at DeKalb or Canal st. bridge, where all the signage points you to completely different directions to where the G.O. posters are sending you. The F express affected enlightened Brooklyn riders, who have a familiarity with their home station and have experienced GOs before.
The rerouted F via 8th and other whatnot is similar, I agree. But in this case the Manhattan stations do have within fare control transfer options, if only southbound Fs are running and you want to head north you can txfr at Delancey for the J to the Broadway, Lexington, and weekdays the 8th ave lines without leaving the borough.
Keep in mind: An often occurrence with tourists is missing stops. They may know when to get off, but don't move very fast. Try missing the WTC when northbound trains are running over the bridge. You and I know it's possible to walk from Rector, but they probably don't and will have to take the long way around Brooklyn.
In any case, I'm saying is that these types of GOs should be avoided but if necessary, run a shuttle bus or train. If there is a GO for the Montague, why can't they run a Canal-Whitehall shuttle? Or single-track?
See my other post on proper communication of GO's. I agree that there are serious problems with the current system.
However, I don't see an N/R reroute as any worse than many GO's that occur on a regular basis. What makes you think the backtracking is clear-cut on the G/F GO? If anything, passengers will assume they can transfer across the platform at Hoyt to the Manhattan-bound A/C if they don't realize that the G shuttle is single-tracked on the Queens-bound track. (When I rode the G two weeks ago, I didn't see a single sign warning passengers of this change.) I don't think the other two crossovers are signed any better than the average one. And for someone who's already boarded at East Broadway during the aforementioned GO, there's no option but to ride to Brooklyn -- the transfer to the J is only available to those daring enough to walk the tracks (which, I suppose, isn't all that daring since, after all, trains aren't running). Again, when I was there, I didn't see a single sign posted at platform level -- when a Brooklyn-bound train finally arrived after a long wait, a good number of passengers remained on the platform (I tried to talk a handful into boarding so they wouldn't be stuck waiting until Monday morning).
The very common B-on-Sea-Beach GO is more of a detour than the N/R via bridge, and for those going only a few stops, it's a long, slow ride back.
Really, the only difference is that more tourists ride the N/R. But tourists are more likely to see posters than regular riders, so, if anything, that's an advantage. There's absolutely no need for an explicit shuttle bus: the M6 already functions as one and the 1/9 and 4/5 are in spitting distance.
((N) (R) - LATE NIGHT / WEEK END Trains run express from DeKalb ave to Canal st. Passengers wishing to travel to stations City Hall
through Lawrence from Brooklyn must take a northbound N, R, or Q to Canal st, where you can transfer to a Southbound N or R. Passengers wishing to travel from stations City Hall through Lawrence to Manhattan and Queens must take a southbound N or R to Dekalb ave, where you can transfer to a northbound N, R, or Q.)
That's the opposite of my official recommendation for the Manhattan Bridge before I left City Planning. I proposed building the Rutgers connection, and connecting the Nassau Street line to Grand Street via Park Row, perhaps as part of a lower 2nd Avenue line.
The bridge would then be used during RUSH HOURS only, decreasing weekly traffic (and thus wear and tear) by 80 percent plus, and making maintenance a breeze.
Possible "base" routings:
F: 8+ tph 6th Avenue local via Rutgers.
D: 6+ tph 6th Avenue express via new connection, Rutgers
V: 6+ tph 6th Avenue local via new connection, Rutgers.
B: 6+ tph 6th Avenue express via Montigue, Nassau, new connection to Grand.
N: 6+ tph Broadway local via Montigue.
R: 6+ tph Broadway local via Montigue.
That's all the service you have today during non-rush hours, with room for significantly more, and no use of the bridge.
Over the last week or so there has been an 10 car train of R33 cars sittin on the inside Queens bound local tracks. why are they there? does anybody know?
Read the TWO previous threads on this issue, including one started the day before this one.
David
Does Ashmont have turnstiles?
Where is Ashmont? What system serves it?
The MBTA serves it. Ashmont station is where the red subway line ends and the streetcar extension starts.
-Robert King
yes it does. south bound trains end at a platfrom where across the platform transfers can be made to street cars and busses. inbound platforms have turnstiles on the left across from the buss drop off.
There's a program in place to lower the height of these turnstiles because too many people were getting hurt jumping them! ;-)
The Massachusetts Bay Transportation Authority or you can just call it the t.
With a capital T!
-Robert King
There is a loop at both ends (Ashmont & Mattapan).
Mr (small)t__:^)
I hate to throw cold water on the upcoming "V" train party, but I was thinking the new service will slow down Queens Blvd. express service even more. I remember how fast it was when I was in grade school in the 70s (I know how bad the system was back then, but the E/F expresses still flew). Now it's a shadow of that.
Anyway, as it is now, when you're on the E leaving 7th Avenue, often you have to wait for a F to cross in front by 5th Avenue, then wait some more for the F to get moving. I don't know what it's like on the F coming up 6th Ave, but I'm sure it's similar.
Once the V starts, there will be a merge along 53rd street, as now, then ANOTHER merge-up just beyond Queens Plaza , once the F joins in. Two merges instead of one.
Manhattan bound, the E will have to merge with the F just east of Union Turnpike, as now, but will also have to wait for the V to merge in at Queens Plaza, only to have the V turn off after 5th Avenue.
All this crossing over seems to me that it'll slow things a lot. I suppose there's a benefit in terms of having an alternate to the 53rd Street tunnel- if a train's stuck there, the 63 rd St. tube can be used, and then with a fancy move at West 4th, the E, F, or V can get back on track....
Any thoughts, people? I'd be particularly interested in hearing from any T/O's...
Which train enters Queens Plaza First
What Time in the day it is
If the V train barely arrives before the E then the V sadly will go first, if the E gets there first it leaves first. If the E trains come more frequently they might hold a E once and a while.
It all depends on where the ball bounces
The train register sheet pre-determines which train goes in front of the other. A train is only placed ahead if the other is not in the area.
You make alot of sense, to me at least.
Why couldn't they just run the V through the connector?
They can't run the V through the connector because that would make it worthless as the 63rd St train is running local, and they can't make the V run express because there's no room and then something would have to be drawn up to run through 63rd St when the V isn't running. That's why the F through 63rd fits in perfectly.
so why not make the F the local,run it to Church Avenue,use the V as an express on Queens Blvd,6 av and Smith st? Wasnt it the plan to run the F local anyway when the V line was up and running from 179 st? Both routes would begin at 179 st[V express, Flocal]where as the V would diverge into 63 st,F present headings into Manhattan. The Vwould be the 6 ave express and run as that to West 4th st,where it would rejoin the F along the local tracks to Jay street.V trains would operate on the lower level express tracks to Church ave while Ftrains would run on the local tracks and terminte there except rush hours. Riders in Park Slope would not loose direct 6 ave service,and riders from Queens would gain a service that didnt exist before-6 avenue express routing to and from Jamaica on 6 avenue.
Umm... If you switch the F and V trains in your plan, then service would almost be the same as it is now (in Queens) except only one train heads to Jamaica. Doesn't help. Unfortunately, the current plan is the best one they can make, since no other works. PLus there's no way the V can run on 6 Ave. because the B and D still need 34th Street. And there will probably be no Culver express for a long time.
So why cant the B/D trains run to the WTC via the local and E trains to Brooklyn via FULTON express? And by the way, i was talking about service after the bridge work was over,even though i did not state that fact.
Ok, so the 63rd Street train is running local. There was never a 63rd Street train to begin with.
The V is essentially replacing the G, which everyone said was worthless because it didn't go to Manhattan. So now there is more local service to Manhattan, and that is through 63rd Street.
I can see New Flyer's point, this good really mess up E and F service with all the converging in and out.
The 63 St tunnel was mainly to relieve the crowding in the E and F trains (such as when the people exit from the G train at Queens Plaza or Roosevelt and corss the platform), a V train through 63 Street doesn't relieve it because no one wants to go to 63 Street and people who want to go to 6 Ave. would want to take a Queens express train because it's available, so that does nothing to relieve that crowding. And F trains should not see much delay with the current plan, it's only the E and V trains on the 53 St. tunnel, but since there seems to be no other way to avoid it (63 St tunnel wasn't designed for connection to Queens Blvd anyway) unless they do some major reconfiguration of track work, there's no way around these problems.
I agree with the last posting there's not much avoiding these problems. I guess the point of my roiginal posting was to solicit thoughts to see if anybody (and quite a few people seem to!) agree with my thinkign that all this merging or whatever (maybe sombody can give me the right NYCT terminology, BTW) might cause delays.
I had also thought, and I see concourrence here that basically the F/Express has to go thru 63rd Street, as nobody would take a local that runs an even longer route. Personally, I often take a local nowadays, such as on Lexington Ave, as they're less crowded (hence the F thrru 63rd/V thru 53rd), and with all the timer signals and other s***, expresses ain't what they used to be.
Basically, what this plan does is reroute one express and make room for an additional local to Queens.
Before the 63rd St line: 3 express trains (E,F, 7 Exp) to Queens; 3 locals (N,R, 7 local) to Queens
After the 63rd St line (with Connector): 3 express trains, as above, but F is rerouted; 4 local trains (N,R,V,7 local)
By then, be sure to toss in the W.
Oh yes, sorry.
So that would make four expresses and four locals, at least for the next three years (until the north Manny B tracks open again).
The E Line will be the most affected from these changes. While the F will be the least affected because of the lack of connections along the 63rd route.
If this is going to work, the E line must be more frequent than it current schedule. It must handle former F riders who uses the 53rd Street Station.
Any other suggestions?
N Bwy LOCAL
Part of what the MTA's new plan does is redistribute Sixth Av riders. The new F train will carry people headed for the east 60's, Roosevelt Island, LIC and Queens east of Jackson Heights. The V will pick up people headed mostly for local stops west of Jackson Heights, with some headed for local stops west of 71-Continental. At 53rd and Lex, the V and the E will redistribute similarly: the V will pick up local riders, the E express riders. That's a much better offer of services at that stop, Queensbound, than what happens now. 53rd/Lex becomes a more useful station than it did before, because the trains will serve riders better. As to frequency of E service, I think the passenger redistribution will demonstrate its utility even without any changes.
While there are some challenges for dispatching trains through the tracks, I really don't think a lot of the complications being spun on Subtalk are going to be an issue. From a passenger's perspective, the MTA's 63rd St implementation makes a lot of sense. It is a very good plan, and I think it will work very well. One can always tweak, of course.
I agree with what you just wrote Ron. But the other question is whether passengers would choice the E over the V when they can get the R at Queens Blvd. Also, they are still many passengers who will be using F train stations above 71st Street Continental. Unless they decide to run the V all the way to 179th Street. But still, people would want to have faster service and the E seems to be the best bet so far.
The plan of putting the F at 63rd Street is a good idea. However, the plan of maintaining the same service is an awful idea because of what was previously written.
My proposal would call for running the E more frequent than any other line.... possibly every 2.5 minutes like the F train now. And run the F every 5 minutes like the E train now.
N Bwy Line
Certainly the E could always use more service frequency. There's no shortage of peeople in Queens who want it.
As to the R vs. V, well, if you're closer to Broadway in Manhattan, you'll take the R; if along Sixth Av, you'll take the V. Coming from Queens in the morning, you'll take whichever train gets you closer to work.
I thought I read in a previous post that because of the track configuration at Jamaica Center on the "E" it can only handle 12 TPH turnarounds or 5 minute headways.
Well, that's not true because I have actually seen E's arrive at my platform closer than 5 minutes apart (example: when I just missed one).
Yes, and I'll bet the train you just missed had a gap longer than 5 minutes between it and the one before it. I have seen them turn trains at Jamaica, there is no way any more than 12 trains can turn there. There is often one train waiting at Sutphin. What they could do to increase E train service is to run a few to 179th, which has abundant train-turning power (though the F would have to be turned on the lower level relay, which is usually used for train storage).
6th Ave-53rd St train must run local so as to connect G riders with Eastern Queens directly. If this message has been already posted I'm sorry my computer froze.
If they restored the Hillside express and extended the V to 179 st. I don't think it would be bad to have the V go through the 63 st. tube. The 63 st. tube is not worthless, it is a great asset if a train lays down. Yes it will be the same through 53 st. if the F were to continue to 53 st. as far as the amount of trains but how many V's will there be? People will ride the V. How many people are going to get off the F at some point to catch the Lex.? I feel the same as others that say that the TA is justifying the 63 st. tube by sending the F through. I wouldn't have a problem with it but I think Queens Blvd. will become even slower with another split and merge. As for the V when it is not running, just shift the F to 63 st. If I am mistaken the TA is concerned about relieving the overcrowding conditions so I hope when the new line starts they will have personel out to see the levels of people on the trains and see how it compares to the studies they conducted before. We will also have to rely on Subtalkers out there to see if the service is slowing down.
I feel the line will speed up, simply because the F and E only share for a grand total of two station stops. Since those two lines will have the most TPH on Queens Blvd, reducing the number of stops those lines share will help keep trains moving at a good speed.
The V will run less frequently than the F, so the splits / merges at 5th will be lessened. Of course, the 63st merge will be the same, but both the E and the F will move at a decent speed in both directions as long as they're separate. Even if the E does consistently get plugged by a V, it will still move faster because the track capacity is freed up more.
Now here is a simple yet very logical modification to the V train route. Instead of having it terminate at 2nd Ave, where very few people are going, why not have it use the connecting tracks at West 4th and run it to WTC, where lots of people are going. And while you're at it, have E trains run express and to Euclid via Fultono local, and C trains run to WTC, but more frequently that every 9-10 minutes. This would eliminate the need for crossing over at Canal, and provide better service to the downtown area and Brooklyn, as well as making for a more effective V train.
You've just eliminated local service from 8th Avenue to Brooklyn.
And how do you expect to turn both the C and the V at WTC?
[You've just eliminated local service from 8th Avenue to Brooklyn.]
From 23rd and Spring St only.
[And how do you expect to turn both the C and the V at WTC? ]
C 6 tph, V, I believe 9 or 10 tph, I don't see a problem.
Arti
From 23rd and Spring St only.
And all points north of 59th. (In other words, 50th will be the only local station to have service to Brooklyn.)
There's really no point having two express services and only one local service on 8th Avenue. The express doesn't gain much time since it only bypasses two or three stations south of 59th; with only the C serving local stations, those local stations will have worse service than just about any other station in Manhattan (except Broad Street and the only two stations in Manhattan currently served by only the C, 155th and 163rd).
[And all points north of 59th. (In other words, 50th will be the only local station to have service to Brooklyn.) ]
I don't think that would impact too many commuters.
[There's really no point having two express services and only one local service on 8th Avenue. The express doesn't gain much time since it only bypasses two or three stations south of 59th; with only the C serving local stations, those local stations will have worse service than just about any other station in Manhattan (except Broad Street and the only two stations in Manhattan currently served by only the C, 155th and 163rd). ]
I'd say the track capacity could be an issue as you'll be adding another local (V) at w4th st. Only 1 (23rd) will have significantly reduced local service.
Arti
As of two days ago, 17 lengths of guideway remain to be installed over the Van Wyck. Call it 9 weeks at the current rate. Also 12 lengths of guideway remain to be installed next to Jamaica Station. (Work here is proceedings in parallel with the work over the Van Wyck.) Anyone care to guess how long to complete the station itself, not to mention installing rails, power supply, and signals?
Come to think of it, does Airtrain use signals? If it is fully automated, who would be there to see them?
If anyone is interested in seeing the LIRR concept of what the new Jamaica terminal will look like check out:
http://www.lirr.org/lirr/airtrain/airtrain.htm
Hmm, Penn Station to JFK in 40 minutes - never happen!!!!!!!!
Some at the PA, unofficially, and off the record, are predicting Labor Day for completion of the whole guideway (not including stations). Test runs could then begin on the Van Wyck portion.
Would that be BRT service on that date ?
BRT = Bus Rapid Transit, a new buzz word in the industry.
Just kidding here ....
Mr t__:^)
Webster's defines oxymoron as "a figure of speech in which opposite or contradictory ideas or terms are combined." They only use this long-winded definition because they never heard of BRT.
Don't some people out there (not the intelligent ones) think "New York" is an oxymoron? :0)
Not at all! There is a “York” in Yorkshire, England that dates from before Roman times. So, although by American standards, New York is a relatively old city, by global standards it’s a new city.
On the other hand, the behavior of some of the city’s elected officials could certainly be characterized as (oxy-)moronic! :-)
John
>>> Don't some people out there ... think "New York" is an oxymoron? <<<
Maybe not "New York", but certainly "New York rapid transit". :-)
Tom
Notice that the R word does not appear in the name of any transit entity in the NY Metro area.
Based on my observations, I would say that they might just do it, if the track work, wiring, etc. is being installed in tandem with the structural concrete work. Given the viewing angle from street level and the concrete sides that are being added onto the guideway a couple of weeks behind the erection of the guideway itself, I have no idea how far the track, wiring, etc. lags behind the structure.
I finally came across a vantage point from which to observe track-laying. I needed to visit the Delta terminal, and I parked on the third level of the Green Garage. On one side, one has a good view of trackwork (and old-style gauge guide lying there), no 3rd rail yet. Unless they erect more fencing, there be a good camera location to photograph a train leaving Terminal 4 for Terminal 3, if the inside track runs clockwise.
Taking photos of Airtrain will resemble the difficulty of getting higher than the #7 IRT to get a good shot, as some fellows have done from apartment houses along Queens Boulevard, Sunnyside.
last night i saw a new set of Bombardier R-142 being towed to E.180th.couldn't get the numbers but spotted 65 on one of the cars. yesterday, about 10 of them were running. I could be exaggerating because i lost count. it was basically after every other redbird, there was an R-142 behind it.
YES,
THIS IS WHAT THE @#%$! I'M TALKING ABOUT!!!!!
Regards,
T.Lo
www.transitalk.com
Whatever will they do with all that surplus red paint?
Paint some Els!
--Mark
Hi all,
Don't forget Wednesday is the 2001 Bus Fest and Transit Museum 25th Anniversary thingy at the museum. I think there is going to be a gathering of Bustalkers at 1pm -- Subtalkers invited too!
Anyone want to join me before or after for a run up to the Bronx, looking for redbirds & R142's? I'll go out on a limb and say meet at Park Place 2/3 station northbound head end at 8:30 am? Run up to the Bronx, and then head down to the Museum in time for the 1pm gathering? Thoughts?
-Dave
Yikes, I'd do it if it was later, maybe 10-11 or something like that I have no clue, 8:30's a bit too early for me :-)
10-11 doesn't give us enough time to get up to the Bronx then back down to Brooklyn Heights. Maybe meet us at the museum then...
Well I have off this Wednesday and theres a 99% chance I will drive from the Pocono's and come down. I hope to be at the Bus Fest and be with you on the field trip. I look foward to meeting some fellow subtalkers.
If you provide an approximate meeting time at 96th (and, if possible, some form of identification), I'll plan on being there. (8:45? 9:00? I don't know when you plan on actually getting on a train.) Unless I wake up earlier than planned, I'm not about to go down to Park Place only to retrace my steps back up.
I'm sure you'll recognize a group of rail nerds getting off at 96th St that early on a holiday morning :-)
9:00 at 96th St should be cool.
-Dave
That sounds good for me as well 9AM at 96 St. on the North end. I just hope the T/O don't know me.
Great. I'll probably be there, but don't wait for me if I'm not.
Redbird or R-142, or will you fight it out at Park Place?
For identification purposes, if I remember to bring it, I'll be wearing a button with a train and a blinking light. (I got it last week at the PC Expo Maxtor booth for topping an Acela train.)
I take it a Fun Pass would be in order for the day.
I'll try, but the SI Ferry doesn't arrive until 8:30ish. If I make it, I'll be at the north end of Chambers at either 8:34 or 8:40.
I'll have to pass. It's the Bus Stop Backyard Barbecue at my house on the 4th (all the kids in the neighborhood who got on the school bus with my kids at the same bus stop & their parents are coming over - yours truly is grilling :)
So that's why I'm chasing R-142s on the 2 line tomorrow (Monday 7/2) all day, camera in hand.
--Mark
I will be working on the No.6 Line tomorrow hopefully working on those R142A's.
I was on the Pelham Line from about 3pm to 7:30pm, stopped at just about every station north of Whitlock Ave. Took some video from the street, too. (I was on White Plains Road from 11:00am to 3pm, then again from 8pm - 10pm).
If you saw a guy with a videocamera wearing a SEPTA map T-shirt, that was me.
I can't tell you how many nice "hellos" I got from most of the T/Os I saw, both on Pelham and White Plains Road. In fact, one T/O was about to pull out of Elder Ave Manhattan-bound, but saw me with the camera videoing a R-142A running express to Pelham Bay over the Bronx River viaduct ... he held up the train about 20 seconds to allow me to get the R-142A in total. If he's one of you who frequents this board, a big "thank you" to him.
I *might" try again this Friday, but for sure, weather permitting, I'll be somewhere on the BMT southern division and the BMT Broadway Line on July 23rd, the first full weekday of the Manhattan Bridge flip-flop. Should be a very interesting day :)
--Mark
If you saw a guy with a videocamera wearing a SEPTA map T-shirt, that was me.
The videocamera was wearing a t-shirt?
Well, I have to disguise the camera SOMEHOW :)
--Mark
Right On!
Spoken like a true sub-lensman.
I and GreenSignL will probably be there. I say we go R-142, I haven't really had the chance to do an express with them.
Dan
Myself and Playland will be joining you on thi railfan trip, I'll bring a sign , playland is tall. see you wednsday.
8:30 AM??? Way too early. I see you at the Museum.
All,
I'm going to have to cancel out on that 8:30 am field trip, I have on call support tonight from 9pm to 9am. However I should still be at the museum for the 1pm gathering and if anyone wants to go afterwards... I'm going to try and make it out for a little while after work today and get some pix too.
Sorry folks! Sleep late! It's a holiday!
-Dave
I was on the White Plains Road line for a good part of Monday. Not too many R-142s were out. There are many more R-142As on Pelham than there are R-142s on the White Plains line. Oddly enough, I saw more R-142s at night than I did during the day.
--Mark
Dropped in at the Smithsonian Folklife Festival last Friday. The car is displayed nicely with an accessible ramp designed like a station platform. Several power converters kept the lights, doors, buzzers, etc operational. Individuals could sit in the cab and get a short instruction on how to drive a subway train.
But it was HOT out on the Mall.
The car is next to the Smithsonian Station on the Blue/Orange and Washington's transit really carries heavy loads.
Included in the area was a display by the so-called "muralists." One of the Transit operators noted he was even housed with a muralist in the hotel. He noted although they have promised not to practice their "art" they seemed to cringe as they tried to hold back their feelings as the stood inside the sparkling clean and polished subway car.
A few other visitors were heard to ask, "Is this really a New York subway car....it's TOO clean."
David Harrison
The bus was the only Air Conditioned display. Also, did you see the price of the food!! $5.00 for a plate of pasta.
Really!?!? What a bargain! Around here pasta goes for at least $6 a plate, and that's from the hole-in-the-wall restaurants.
How about that deal at the Villa Pizza at the Port Authority -
$5.50 for a slice of pizza!
Can't beat that one!
I went by on Saturday to get a close up. I had driven past it last Thursday, and at that time I didn't realize that #9056 did not have it's running gear.
Wayne
Has anybody seen this movie? It did nothing at the box office, I'm just wondering if it's worth renting. What is the movie about?
Get it, get it get it!!!!
You will like the movie. It's about a kid(Mark Wahlberg) who gets out of jail after serving time for auto theft. Once out, he hooks up with his friend(Joaquin Phoenix) who is working for a company that repairs subway cars.
Eventually, they go to the Sunnyside yards to sabotage the work of their competitors, in order to continue winning contracts. The movie takes off from there.
And if you're one of those people who likes to pay attention to the particulars, like the many on this board who like to point out the flaws in the Pelham 1-2-3, you'll have a blast.
The Yards is well worth the rental fee.
Thanks for the info. Which lines are featured in the movie? Is it set in a specific neighborhood or only in the yard?
Just wondering. Thanks again Marty.
I assume it all happens in Queens. At one point, Joaquin Phoenix tells a bartender that Mark Wahlberg is his "buddy from Francis Lewis High School". And Frank, the owner of the company that repairs the subway cars, lives in a mansion in Forest Hills.
I was trying to figure out where the house that Mark Wahlberg lived in was located. It looked like lower Long Island City. Let me know if you get the movie.
For sure, thanks again for the info.
Marty.
There's almost no actual subway footage. The one "yard" in the film is Sunnyside. There's also some brief shots inside a real TA shop, I'm guessing Coney Island but it's too short to tell for sure. It's an OK flick but it's really not about the subway...
That scene was shot in 207th Stret overhaul shop. The office was completely renovated for the movie. The last I heard, it was locked and unused.
From SEPTA: The one way fare from Trenton to Center City has gone from $5.00 to $7.00--a 40% increase!
This is worse than PATH's 50% increase since PATH has the quickcard which reduces the per ride cost to $1.20--only a 20% increase.
That is still cheaper than the NJ Transit ticket from New Brunswick to New York Penn - which is $7.75, and the distance from Trenton to Center City is greater, I believe.
SEPTA is just bringing their fares in line with what the rest of the world is doing.
That is still cheaper than the NJ Transit ticket from New Brunswick to New York Penn - which is $7.75, and the distance from Trenton to Center City is greater, I believe.
Is that peak of off peak? NJT gives significant discounts for off-peak travel. It also gives big discounts for travel to Newark. RTX to Newark is 10.50, or 5.25 each way (+1.50 for PATH). SEPTA charged $5 to Trentown for every single train (special Zone 6 fare) and now I suspect that it is charging $7 for every single train. As you can see, SEPTA is slightly out of line here.
SEPTA is just bringing their fares in line with what the rest of the world is doing.
The "everyone else is doing it" excuse is hardly acceptable.
Please note that due to the zone-based fares, people living in outer zones actually get very cheap fares for going long distances.
For example: Before the fare hike, a ticket from Manayunk or Wissahickon to Trenton was only $5! After the hike, a bit more, of course.
For example: Before the fare hike, a ticket from Manayunk or Wissahickon to Trenton was only $5! After the hike, a bit more, of course.
It was $6. Travel between 7 and 11 zones (ie "through" centre city) was $6, which was the maximum fare on SEPTA Regional Rail.
Why SEPTA isn't bright:
You do realize that all you have to do is buy day passes instead of train tickets, the price of the day pass is cheaper ($5.50) than the Zone 6 travel fare ($7) and is still good for any regional rail ride, via Center City excepted. Though it seems a shame to waste two day passes for every trip to Philly...
The hike should have simply given Zone 6 peak and off-peak fares the same as the Zone 5 peak fare. They decided to go nuts on this one. The RTX ticket discount is only $1 (and all I can get with that is 20 minutes long distance). That's still $3 more round trip. Purchasing two day passes and using them reduces the round trip fare increase to $1.
The RT is only good for off-peak (for SEPTA) and would be $13.50! The Day Pass is only sold in Philly.
As noted in a previous post, try and explain the Day Pass to many conductors. You'll have as easy a time as I have on an infrequent basis when I board at University City and ride through on R6. The conductors lift the tickets before arriving at 30th and don't leave stubs. On many trains the crews change at Suburban, then the new crews look for tickets after leaving Market East. Try and explain that to the conductor. It happened to me once, then I wised up and asked the conductor to leave the stub, and I continue to do so. One must keep in mind that I'm not the only one doing this and I can't for the life of me understand why the conductor can't leave the punched ticket in the clip so the new crew can see it.
Whether this is bad training, laziness, or what, who knows, but it continues on SEPTA, proving the 'not very bright' approach SEPTA has.
And, to top it all off, try and find an operator or conductor who won't look cross-eyed at the Day Pass (many of them never see it) or who will refuse to accept it. SEPTA has way too many fare instruments out there and the fares are too confusing.
My own thoughts:
1. Make transfers good for any direction for 1 1/2-2 hours. Many cities allow round trips, etc. This would also allow flexibility for people who need to stop at shops, doctors, day care, etc on their trips.
2. Make the base fare $1.50 but raise the token fare to $1.30. Not many people pay the base rate anyway. Why offer such a deep discount on tokens? Tokens bought in bulk (more than 5) should get the discount, while singles, 2-packs, etc could be at the normal fare value.
3. Transfers, similarly, could be a more even amount, such as 25 cents or 50 cents. 60 cents is ridiculous.
4. Collapse the Regional Rail zones by half, i.e. combine 1 and 2, 3 and 4, 5 and 6. This is what the misguided change in Chestnut Hill and Cynwyd fare structures was trying to do.
5. Offer a better 'combo' fare for a combined transit/RR journey. Right now, with the exception of the 200-series routes, transit and RR don't interface fare-wise. They should if one agency is providing the service.
If this is followed, people will return.
By the way, my $2 rides today were no better than my $1.60 rides last week. Thank goodness I buy tokens!
Has anyone else seen this really strange 1988 English movie?
It is the story of a North Carolina doctor who is so addicted to model railroading that he drives his wife crazy! The "doc" seems like he might be a little nuts himself.
It was a poor excuse for a movie, but there were some really different HO railroad scenes, and even one O gauge three rail scene.
I can't say that I would want to recommend it though.
Today after meeting up with Robert B Division T/O (Rode with him on (L), he's damn good), I took the (A) from East New York back to the PABT to catch my bus home. When we pulled into H/S Street Station, on the BMT/IND Track Side of the Museum Tracks were a 10 car set of R-29 Redbirds with the South/Eastbound Motor #8637 still signed up for the (6) Line.
If any one knows, are these the "Museum" Units of Redbirds to be saved?
Regards,
T.Lo
www.transitalk.com
No Trevor, those R29's are being used for NYPD evacuation drills during the week by the Museum.
Thank Trevor for the good words. It was good to have someone from the board ride with me insteed of a TSS. At least you can't write me up if I did something wrong. Hope I some of you soon. Maybe and the Bus Fest on Wensday some of you guys meet up with me on my train. I will know what I am work then on Mondays.
Robert
Thank Trevor for the good words. It was good to have someone from the board ride with me insteed of a TSS. At least you can't write me up if I did something wrong. Hope I some of you soon. Maybe after the Bus Fest on Wensday some of you guys meet up with me on my train. I will know what I am work then on Mondays.
Robert
I don't know about the cars at Hoyt Street, but I've been observing an IRT Mainline Redbird (R-26/28/29 with the Green Stickers under the plates) down at Coney Island Yard, up against a bumping block. The cars have the old style windows, and the number appears to be 8696-97. I can't make the numbers out for sure, but I can't help but wonder if the cars at Coney Island aren't going to visit the scrapper, but may be preserved?
-Stef
Will the NCS be operating on July 4?
And if it is, would anyone be interested in going for a ride after the Transit Museum gathering? We could walk over the Manhattan Bridge to the WTC (or take the subway from Canal if we're really lazy and we all have unlimited cards) and ride PATH out to Newark.
Who else is going to take a few passes over the North side of the Manhattan Bridge this month? Who knows when we'll get to do it again. I sincerely hope I will not have to recount the North side to my grandchildren on my death bed. After all, the South side took around 2 decades to reopen.
What the hell are you complaining about Piasan? Let me tell you, the south side of the Manny B was completed and my Sea Beach got screwed royally when it was time to divvy up who went over the bridge. And when the north side is completed in ten, twenty, or thirty years, the Sea Beach will still most likely be stuck in that damn Montague Tunnel. If anyone has as right to be pissed off, it's me. And I am.
But Fred!
I take either the N or the R from WTC to Court St in Brooklyn. I, for one, am damn grateful that having two lines means that there is not too long a wait for a Rarely or Never!
John
I'm with you!
Much as express runs are enjoyable and are good for people going to the far ends of the line, those oft-forgotten local stops need ample service, too!
Last week I saw the 1983 movie "Trading Places" and the opening sequence had some pretty cool SEPTA scenes. They were taken at Frankford Terminal and you saw some Almond Joys and people getting buzzed through at a token booth. There was also a shot of some pretty retro looking SEPTA buses.
Second, there is a new Nike ad entitled "tag" that shows some guy playing a game of tag w/ basically eveyone else in the city. At the end he runs into a subway station and tried to get at the people in the subway train. Has anybody seen this ad? Can anyone ID the subway?
I just saw that ad, on FOX TV...I didn't catch the subway, but the doors closing on his arm looked like a typical MTA thing :-)
I'm pretty sure it's Toronto...
-Harry
The Other Side Of The Tracks: A Website Devoted To The New York City Subway
It is the Toronto subway with the TTC logo by the door removed. The only other subway with similar cars is the Ankara Turkey metro.
The Nike Ad is in the abandoned lower level at Bay Street Station on the Bloor-Danforth line in Toronto, Ontario Canada. I caught the name of the station "Bay" on one of the tiled colums shown in the ad.
Thursday morning, I discovered not one but two old subway maps still posted in stations.
The first was at Lex/63, at the front (west end) of the upper level platform, dating from 1994. It has the C instead of the B to the Bronx, Dean Street on the shuttle, the N cut back to 86th (or was that a different map I saw recently?), the midday M to Brooklyn, and only a handful of MetroCard stations. I took a picture but it probably won't be terribly legible.
The second was one stop later, at 57/6. Many of us know about the old 1974 map in this station, but IIRC someone reported here that it was gone. I'm afraid it's still there. It's just inside one of the fare control cages, facing out. You can see it through the glass or you can climb behind it inside fare control. The stand it's on isn't attached to anything, so you can turn it for a better view -- I would have done that to get a photo, but I have a feeling the S/A was already eyeing me and I didn't feel like getting arrested so early in the day.
There are old local maps all over the QB line, most of which show the G and N as QB Locals. There may be some on the 7 line, I know that there is one at 90th/Elmhurst. I wonder why they haven't been replaced.
Dan
Cool. Local stops only or express stops too?
One of the elevators at 168th has an old map (1998 or so) posted. I hope not too many riders take it seriously and expect to find the B at the station.
I presume you mean the neighborhood maps?
At Metropolitan on the M, there is a sticker on the map stating that on December 11th, there will be major bus and subway route changes and that this map will not be immediately updated, use the Subway and Bus guides until it is updated.
At Jay st, the Broadway lines still cross the bridge.
At DeKalb, there is a yellow line crossing the bridge, but no yellow routes are indicated (B D Q are in orange).
The Queens Blvd local ones, I've noticed, are all different for each station but still have the same copyright date (1987, I think). Oddly, Woodhaven Blvd was rehabbed yet retained the old map!
Interestingly, the Neighborhood map at 67th ave actually names my grammar school (Our Lady of the Angelus), PS 175, and gives the number code for Halsey Junior High School. My exact street address is also given as one of the ones that are thrown on to give you an idea of the addresses for the block.
But, the one at Woodhaven does not show such things, yet includes the same area. Odd...
No, I mean the regular subway maps. The 1974 map at 57/6 is the only one I know of still in the system that predates the current 1979 style.
I have seen old routes on many a neighborhood map, including the one at Jay you mention.
Which December 11 had major service changes? 1987, when Archer opened? I wasn't paying any attention to the subway back then.
Oh, sorry, I misread the thread tree. You were asking Dan if he meant the neighborhood maps. I'll let him answer for himself.
The sticker was referring to the Archer ave December 11th.
Oh, FWIW, there are maps from 1990 (N via bridge) and 1988 (B/D/Q via 6th) in a few of the Transit Museum's cars.
Talk about outdated!! I remember about 1981 riding a crowded "CC" train (r-10's of course), and still stuck on the panel was the 1969 map!! Can you imagine a tourist reading the map on the way to Rockaway and thinking that he had to wait for the "HH" at Broad Channel to go to Rockaway Park!! Or worse yet, waiting for the "E" express to go there!!!!
I do indeed mean the neighborhood maps.
Could the December 11th service changes mean the Williamsburg Bridge rehab? That did shut down all JMZ service over the bridge for a few months. I don't recall what time of year, however.
Dan
This reminds me of the 1940's map that used to be on the mezzanine at 149th St-Grand Concourse until the early 1970's.
Amazingly enough, it was never graffitied or otherwise defiled.
Check out the map on the mezzanine level of the PATH station at WTC (just behind the Internet kiosk). It still shows the JFK Express!
Some of PATH's own maps still show connections to the Erie-Lackawanna at Hoboken, and "Conrail" at Newark-Penn Station...
Amazing isn't it? As critical as we are that the agenicies don't update their maps, we are probably the only ones who appreciate the sense of history.
Amazing isn't it? As critical as we are that the agenicies don't update their maps, we are probably the only ones who appreciate the sense of history.
Sonehow at least those graffiti artists had some respect for history. BTW you still see some of the ancient NO SPITTING! signs in some of the stations. Surprisingly some of them are still in decent condition.
BMTJeff
When you get a map with the Sea Beach finally going over the Manhattan Bridge, then you can send me a copy. Oh yes, I will pay for both the map and postage. But it doesn't appear that I'll have to do that, does it?
I'm afraid that if I managed to remove a subway map from a station wall and tried to carry it home on the train, somebody, somewhere, would have me arrested.
Here's your argument if that happens:
You actually did society a favor because at some point, a hopelessly lost tourist, or even New Yorker, would find the map, and, taking advantage of a seemingly gift from heaven, would soon embark on a journey that would make them even more hopelessly lost, so even though there's no map there, at least they won't get set on the wrong track (pun, whatever) by a 25 year old map.
Also, by seeing that there's no map there, they would, if they have the sense of mind, would see the Station Agent and ask for a [current] map, which would prove a little more useful than said 25-year old map.
bullshit
In Philly, there's a great map in the tunnels under City Hall (SW corner), pre-Connector Tunnel. It shows lines to West Chester, Newtown, Allentown/Bethlehem, Reading, etc. Pretty cool.
Spring Garden on the El has the same map. I think I may have a picture, will post if I do...
Where can I find out the station usage info from LIRR? Also where's a good site for old pics of LIRR lines. I remember looking at this rather interesting site on LIRR line poles, the ones with green or blue insulators.
Here is a common scenario that us passengers are put through:
Roosevelt Ave., E F G R, rush hour, northbound island platform.
Five to eight express trains running N/B dump their load on Roosevelt. A percentage of those riders are transfering to the local G or R. About four or five 7 trains enter 74th, and a percentage of those riders race downstairs for a local as well. Also consider all the buses stopping at Roosevelt as well.
FINALLY, a local comes. It's a G. It's been a long wait, and the station is PACKED. The train is already heavy, but it's not quite standing room. Not yet anyway. But it's clear that everyone is not going to fit, especially in the last car, on a short train, where all those people from the end of the platform, now have to race to cram into the last car, which is a few feet shy of the entire length of the platform.
The conductor yells at the passengers from the spacious comfort of his/her transverse cab "please stand clear of the closing doors", and then gives us the old, "ladies and gentleman, there is a local train right behind us". But no one wants to hear it. Others don't understand the language the conductor is speaking.
I Love New York!
Typical.
I used to ride the 7 on the way home to Queens Plaza @ rush hour, but after having to beat on people just to get out of the train - people who all swarm the door and DO NOT let you get off unless you physically make a path for yourself, I decided the longer walk and slower ride direct on the N was a bit better.
NYC... an S/M love affair.
N can be brutal too. I lived in Astoria for over a year, before coming out here to Forest Hills.
I find that for whatever reason, the people at Roosevelt on the E F G R are more obnoxious than any other station when it comes to letting people off.
I'd like to offer may theory as to why, but I think I read something about not posting inflamatory remarks.
Someone told me that the city uses a practice of eliminating names on their lists of eligible candidates for city jobs, by lottery. For example, they might just go down a list, and call 2 out of every 3 names on the list for a job. If you are not one of the names called, you are automatically eliminated.
Maybe someone out there can tell me more about this.
I am on the list for Train Operator. My number is 740something. They are currently up to 718.
A month ago, I called to see what number they were up to. At the time they were up to 648, and told me that there would be a class in July. I was so sure that when going throught the list, they would arrive at my number. As of a week ago, there were up to number 718. The list advanced by only 70 candidates. There is another class "tentatively" scheduled for October.
70+ started on Memorial Day. Will try to get some numbers.
Your talking about the "One In Three" rule of cival service. An agency must call from an established list in order of the list. So you call numbers 1, 2, 3. But you are not required to hire Number one, you may interview all three and pick one of the three. So you are number 1 but they pick number 2.
You are not elminated but go back to the pool or list. The next call numbers 1,3,4 will be interviewd and if number 4 is taken the next call will be 1,3,5 and so forth. Number 3, next is 1,5,6.
The reason (if you look at the Chief and calls) that SO MANY people are called for so few spots (Numbers 1 to 285 are called for 4 positions of "yada yada" at the "dada" agency. Is that many many people don't answer the call or have gotten a job they don't want to leave for the city. In most tests there is a long time (years) between the test and when they start calling.
What amazes me is just how fast the NYCTA has moved with the current T/O list.
The Train Operator test was given in Feb of 2000, and by December, people were being hired.
And I am still waiting for my list for a test I took this March. Matter of fact Friday I got the notice that they are processing my test and to notify them of any address chagne.
Could you tell me how exactly getting hired to be a train operator for the MTA works? This is something I'm pretty curious about, though I'll be in school for at least another 2 years. It just always seemed to be that driving a subway was the coolest job.
Alan Ssott
Get the Chief paper and take the test. You can always decline later.
What's the chief paper?
and what's the test on?
(Totally ignorant here)
Thanks,
Alan Scott
It is a newspaper called "The Chief", also known to the public as the Civil Service Chief, that has all kinds of news relating to the hiring and working conditions ( contract negotiations, pension benefits, results of disciplinary actions ) related to civil service employees. It is available at most local newspaper dealers in the five boroughs for about 50 cents. You will find out when and where the civil service jobs are by reading it on a regular basis. There are books that you can get from most major booksellers which will give you practical insight as to what to expect on the upcoming civil service tests, and the titles are listed in the Chief. Good luck.
And for all our sakes, I hope you get sent to the B Div so you can experience those Queens Blvd GOs from our side.
Speaking of imaginary work, today, at 53/Lexington the escaltor that normally runs "down" was out of service. It was also blocked by a fence on both ends.
Was there any repair work being done? NO!
Were there huge lines of people waiting to cram down the stairs instead? YES!
What bothers me was the fact that no work was being done, and customers could have walked down both the stairs, and out of service escaltor, to avoid the disgusting long line, until some TA worker finally decides to try and fix the escalator.
You know, you complain a lot for someone who is LOOKING FORWARD to working for the TA.
Just wait until you get in!!!
I complain about being a passenger, and the hardships we face EVERYDAY with the TA. But I doubt the TA treats it's employees the way it treats it's customers.
>>>>>But I doubt the TA treats it's employees the way it treats it's customers.
Sometimes we get treated worse. You'll find out for yourself (and how). At least the TA treats everyone equally, like crap.
Do you get the feeling this person doesn't read ANYthing that we post?
Do you get the feeling this person doesn't read ANYthing that we post?
------------------------------------------------------------------
LOL
Heh. You'll see ... school car will spoil you too ... if you do it, enjoy the "regular hours" ... you won't see them again until you near retirement. But working for the TA is an everyday affair of watching your back and nursing stab wounds at regular intervals. You'll learn that a lot of five minutes here and there add up to plenty and there's lots of folks whose only hobby seems to be pulling the wings off flies in midflight.
If you love trains, this mitigates it to some degree. But still, it's like being in the military sometimes with about the same levels of logic prevailing. You'll see. They DO treat the geese better. :)
Regular hours? How's this:
7/9 Lefferts Blvd 0755 clear at 1625
7/10 Concourse Yd 0448 clear at 1258 (at 145 St)
7/11 Euclid Ave 0705 clear at 1505
7/12 179 St 0451 clear at 1309
7/13 Parsons/Archer 0700 clear at undetermined time no earlier than 1500
And that's just 5 days of posting. Monday I should get home at about 6:15pm and need to be up no later than 0330 Tuesday to make it on time.
My regular job has more 'nomal' hours than school car.
Wow ... my apologies ... back when I came on, they had LARGE classes and they tended to run 0745 to 1545 most days. In 1970 and 1971 they were hiring like there was no tomorrow and wanted to get us all posted as fast as possible.
>>>>>>........and wanted to get us all posted as fast as possible.
It's even faster nowadays. For example, the A to B transfer students such as the one and only Alex L. (God I hope there's only one) had their course time cut from 37 days to 25 days. I'm beginning to wonder if the TA is purposely trying to undermine it's T/O's by offering inadequate training.
I had a transfer student today. He told me that he had never been on an R44 before and that he only has one day's worth of posting on the A line. And that Training & Qualifications never arranged to practice on an R44.
There is a possibility that within the three one way journeys that he'll be posting on the A line that he will see only R38's. So when it comes time to covering a regular assignment on his own, he could be operating an R44 train that he has absolutely ZERO experience with. And you could be riding with him. It's not fair to the T/O or the riding public.
Yow ... well, back in 1971 it was 6 weeks for B division - but I had already been a conductor on the D (splits) and I ended up getting posted on the D. At THAT time, all we were shown was the R1/9's and the 32's and were told that if and when we had enough seniority to pilot the mighty bingbongs (42/44's) we'd go back to school car for that. Uh-huh. But yeah, there was a decided feeling that we were cramping up the system and the "ta" was gritting its teeth over the bowl looking to poot us out ...
Fortunately, I knew my run and I got the time on the oldies I needed before I hit the road ... but I remember my first day with a 32. Didn't much like it compared to what I was used to. Did so poor a job, they never gave me one again. :)
I don't know. I see T/O's and other employees of the TA, including several friends of mine who are T/O and Motor Instuctors, and they complain like crazy. But for some reason, a job with the TA does not seem to make a monster out of people.
My hatred for the NYCTA has grown over the years, especially the last two years. Why? Because I have gone from being a "buff", or a "fan", to being a legit passenger, who relies on the subway to get to work, school, and social functions. And I have seen just how bad things really are.
When I was a kid, five years old, I attended pre-school at the public library on Forest Ave. in Ridgewood, barely one block from the M train. If I was good in school, do you know what my reward was? Ice cream? I trip to the playground? Candy? No. It was a ride on the M train. That's how much I loved trains. I even made play handles to pretend I was driving the train when I was a kid.
Back to reality. I left work tonight at 11:45 from 72nd and Park and I arrived home in Forest Hills at 1:22. Almost two hours for a distance of 7 miles? That's sick.
I deal with overcrowding in trains, stairways, and long lines at the token booth too often. Much of this is unnecessary, or at least can be reduced, if the TA would care enough about the problems at hand. Instead, there are people still seriously considering a 2nd Ave line. It's a lost cause.
I did my fair share of whining too. Most jobs will do that. But there are SOME people in the system that can go out of their way to give you something to whine about without good reason for doing so. Sure, most of the folks I worked with were an absolute pleasure to be around. But every location had a few people that you just want to administer a proper slap job to. :)
I'm sure that factor hasn't changed much.
Didn't get a chance to get to work today. Had to take my wife to the hospital. Will hook up with my group tomorrow and find out those numbers.
Thanks.
Ok. Spoke to the guys. Most of the guys in the group are in the 400-450 range with one guy at 510. Was told that one of the guys in one of the other classes has a 600 number. Good luck.
I already had the chance to work with 2 of the New O/C T/O's. I didn't think they would put a Probationary O/C T/O and C/R together. I'm not going to comment on there operation but 1 of them can thank me for still having a job.
>>>>I'm not going to comment on there operation but 1 of them can thank me for still having a job
You just did. But in all fairness, a boo boo can happen to anybody.
(It was only one boo boo right?)
They are not supposed to put two probies on the same crew. If it happens again, point this out to the TD - if something happens down the road, he'll be joining the two of you at Jay St.
That actually happens all the time. I've never heard of that rule myself, only the one that a probie cannot take a student.
What was it that he or she did?
He just didn't have control of this train.
Overrun or hit a signal
Hooked up with a good friend today (Sunday) and did a little spelunking. First on the agenda was to find the old 36 St. mezzanine. We believe we fould it but alas we could not get in. It was told to us that there was a ladder but upon further inspection of the area we had concluded that this ladder was taken down and that a new doorway and associated walkway in the ceiling to the mezzanine was made. It belongs to the Signal Dept. The doorway is located on the northbound local. While being unsuccessful with that we did find the original tile on the walls south of the current station. It is the same design. We also went down to the original connection tunnels south of 36 St.(below the B connection). They are in amazingly good condition with very little water. Next we tackled the old Nassau loop tracks. Got off at Canal and seen a 4 car set of R68's familiarizing T/O's on the Broadway side. Got to the J platform and walked. The tracks (loop) take a sharp curve right behind the wall at Canal and head right for the bridge. The two tracks are in surprisingly good condition and end in bumping blocks right before the Broadway tracks. There was a post that had said that one track had continued on further but it was actually the Broadway tracks that this person had seen. We walked back to Chambers and took a look around. What is the MTA waiting for? The whole place to fall down? Walked the old outside platform and found two old light fixtures still left. Those black ones that are round and looked like they belonged in a dungeon. Some of those staircases on the old platform that go to other mezzanines were all sealed up. What is with that wood partition on the unused center platform? Went to Essex next. Never realized there was the old tower on the south end of the Jamaica platform. Went exploring around the new tower. South of the tower there appears to be room for two trackways. The one next to the far wall was tiled (just plain white). It was here that I found a single seat (passenger) from an R16. The whole area around the tower is just a maze of rooms. We found another room that was perpendicular to the trackway we found and that was tiled also. These rooms were altered when the F and IND came to town and found the abandoned IND mezzanine. Newer white tile with a baby blue band toward the ceiling line. They are still doing work in the area and seen that the token booth has been taken away. We continued and came upon the old trolley loops. The rails in the cobblestone were there as well as some of the overhead. Nicely perserved, just dirty. We continued to the approach of the Willy-B where the tracks end at the roadway abutment. We also saw what we believe to be a tower or dispatchers office in the area of the loop tracks. Lastly we ventured to Roosevelt Ave. Went to the north end and down the long corridor and found what was left. We were impressed. The beginning of the hallway was where the platform had started so there is only about 4 cars left of platform. It is a modified TA storeroom covered with dust. Two trackways and an island platform. Anything and everything stored pretty much all over the place but not that bad at all as to not see it. Tilework all there with a dark blue band. A tower/dispatcher's office at the north end of the platform but locked up. Proceeding past the station was something else. There is a steel wall put up right at the stations end but a doorway was open. It just opens up to this great big area. Just north of the station was the provision for a diamond crossover. We continued to see how far the tunnels go. It goes a decent distance, about a block. At the end of the trackway is an emergency exit. Left goes up to the street and the right goes down to the northbound local of the Queens Blvd. line. The line, if it was continued was indeed heading south like the Phase II plan. The trackway from the southbound side of the Queens Blvd. (heads upward, northward from Roosevelt Ave.) meets the southbound track of the unbuilt line. They are side by side when the tunnel ends. The tunnel was not built far enough for the 2 tracks to merge. The northbound connecting track from Queens Blvd. is just a bellmouth off the northbound local. It was a good day.
>There was a post that had said that one track had continued on further but it was actually the Broadway tracks that this person had seen.
Oh, so you remember that. After I thought about it, I figured it might be the Broadway tracks, but I had remembered the merger of the Bway tunnel and the loop tunnel as being closer to the portal. (You couldn't even see daylight from the bumping block area).
I wanted to go check it out for myself, but I don't want to go snooping in places like that if I'm not on duty laying/picking up a train there. People also access the Canal St. exp platform directly from the layup area. I thought it would have been far, but I guess it's right around the corner.
Not far at all.
Thats the spirit, IM glad to see a "subtalker" keeping Urban Exploration alive. Learn from this guy people.
Thanks. It was fun getting to see what you can't see.
exactly, thats the point, if youre into that sort of thing, give me an email
I was watching the movie "The Train Robbers" (1973) this evening, and although it does not have enough railroad scenes to cause a railfan to rent it, there were a couple of things that maybe a historian can answer for me.
1. > In the opening scene, a train pulls into a small desert tank town (but does not stop to take on water). It appears that the tracks are on wooden ties just sitting on the desert floor without any sort of roadbed. Were railroads built like that in the desert in the second half of the 19th century? The movie is set in post civil war time, about 1874. (The tracks were also unbelievably straight, but I assume that is because they were laid just before the scene was shot.)
2. > In a scene where a posse arrives on flat cars and the horses jump off, it is clear that the flatcars are very well sprung, and one of the trucks that is in the scene looks just like the trucks you would see on a modern flat car. Has this design been around for 125 years, or did the film makers just not care about authenticity?
Tom
<< > In the opening scene, a train pulls into a small desert tank town (but does not stop to take on water). It appears that the tracks are on wooden ties just sitting on the desert floor without any sort of roadbed. Were railroads built like that in the desert in the second half of the 19th century? >>
Yes. If you read Steven Ambrose's book, "Nothing Like It In The World," about the building of the Transcontinental railroad, you'll see that both the CP and UP initially laid some trackwork with a bare minimum of ballast, sometimes none at all, in their rush to get the tracks laid. The railroads were paid by the federal government by the mile so the faster they laid rails, the faster they were paid.
Guess I'll go for question 2: Unless there's a vague visual similarity in trucks, NO. Especially if roller bearing journals are plainly visible instead of the box with the lift door at each axle.
Go back to mybe 1960...or from there another 20 years back, and the big favorite for freight cars of the time was the Bettendorf truck; before that there were archbars and many others.
Passenger cars....some but not all modern trucks have a vaguely similar appearance to some of 100 years ago; of course not identical.
r46 ebay item
I don't know why I didn't ask this earlier, but here it goes:
Why do Tube trains have "OPEN" bottons at each door? I've seen such bottons in use on the intercity trains, and I understand the Paris Metro uses such bottons, but on every Tube train I rode, the doors always opened automatically just like in the US. What's the deal?
-- David
Chicago, IL
LT has been trying passenger door open, and then giving up, for decades. Their advantage is that they keep the heat in during winter. Their disadvantage is that they keep the heat in during summer. Oh yes, and also stupid passengers who don't understand that when a button marked open lights up when the train comes to a stop, it might be a good idea to press the button if they want the doors to open. The last one means that LT has abandoned the system again.
I thought the system was only in use during the winter.
FWIW, Hudson-Bergen Light Rail has a similar system, and I almost missed a train because of it.
On the D Stock we able to operate the doors in several ways. The TOs Open buttons lit the Door Open Button by each passenger door.
In hot weather, once at least one door was opened on each car if you hit Selective Reopen it a opened all the car doors and switched off the open lights, so you could cool the cars down more at stations. It also speeded up Passenger flow at busy stations. If you weren't sure they all opened you could reactivate the Open lights with the Open buttons. It wasn't so bad after they rebuilt all the stock in the mid 80s with improved ventilation fans.
Various ways of door control have been used over the years: some O/P/Q/R Stock had door buttons in the 30s and the renovated Standard Stock for the Central Line extension of 1947 used it until the late 50s.
Selective open is fitted to D stock (District), 1992 stock (central/Waterloo-City) and 1995 (Northern)-1996 (Jubilee)
A switch in the cab that can only be operated by depot staff enables the doors to be opened by the train operator or by the passenger. As Max has stated it allows only doors needed for exit/entry to be opened thus preserving heat/keeping the rain out etc on stock fitted that each work 'out in the open'.
However the drawback is even though the buttons are marked 'when illuminated press to open' some passengers don't notice this and it creates safety problems when they then try to board a train departing.
Know as the PTI (Passenger Train Interface) London Underground has led a campaign to improve safety with PTI and these selective doors are one of the items on the list. Other changes include fitting inter-car barriers (or curtains) similar to the pantograoh gates stateside.
Regards
Rob:^)
London UK
P.S. the first tube cars of the latter day era fitted with these doors were the 1983 stock sadly no longer with us!
P.S. the first tube cars of the latter day era fitted with these doors were the 1983 stock sadly no longer with us!
When I see "sadly no longer with us" in the same sentence as "1983 stock", I can only hope that you accidentally transposed the last two digits in 1983 :)
-Robert King
No, they actually scrapped the 1983 stock a couple years back. They had single door openings and it proved to be a big pain in the neck for people to get on & off. And they couldn't find a suitable plan to overhaul the cars to have two door openings, so they scrapped them.
Can you say, waste-o-$$$?
Actually it was a waste of ŁŁŁŁŁŁs! :-)
John
I was attempting to poke fun at the very crappy 1983 stock. There were a lot more things wrong with those trains than just the size of the doorways.
-Robert King
What else was wrong ?
Simon
Swindon UK
I had the misfortune to qualify for 83 Tube Stock and the even greater misfortune of having to drive it. The braking/control system was a nightmare - specially out on the Met Main in bad weather. Designed by a maniac, the "balance beam and ballbearing on a jet of air" brake was even weaker and more dangerous than the Westcode fitted to the DR "D" Stock and always failing - probably cost a fortune to maintain - good riddance!!
There were lots of equipment problems with the 1983 stock in general. In addition to the control equipment being of poor quality, the motor alternators were very unreliable and prone to failure. Those trains were low quality in nearly all respects. I'm sure you can list more examples of problems with the 1983 stock.
-Robert King
Which lines ran the 1983 stock? I was in London a few times in the late 80's. I remember the District had cars that seemed fairly new and had the buttons. (I didn't see the buttons anywhere else, for that matter. I mostly rode the District, Circle, and Piccadilly.)
83 Tube Stock was used on the Jubilee Line in its Stanmore to Charing - Cross incarnation.
The "D" Stock on the District had similar single leaf doors, and predated it by a couple of years. It had far superior control and handling, tho' the Westcode brake was a bastard at stops like Sloane Square Eastbound.
The "D" Stock design was also the precursor of the Singapore Metro stock, which LT was consulting for.
I just cannot understand why the suits at LUL would make a train built in the 80's look like it was built in the 60's.
Oh well, too late now. At least the new Jubilee and Northern Line stock (GEC Alsthom) are good lookers.
A lot of what happened from 1970 to 1984 was due to the major standoff between management and unions - the first OPO (One Man Operation) Cameras and Monitors installed on the H&C and Circle in the 70s had to be replaced when it eventually was introduced in the 80s.
The "D" Stock was very expensive and considered to be over-engineered, even tho' it's control/brake sytem was a marvel of simplicity.
As a result the 83 stock was a penny pinching exercise by the suits and made it hell to operate - the visibilty was atrocious, with completely flat drivers windows.
BTW, if you don't mind, a few questions that I'd like to ask:
1) How does the management treat you guys? Is supervision a pain in the arse?
2) Are the LUL drivers able to pick steady runs and steady days off? I've heard otherwise.
3) From an earlier post, you said that you are working on the H&C. In a given day, how many round trips do you make?
4) Are you able to switch lines without a great deal of difficulty? For example, you're currently working the H&C, and now you wish to transfer to the District Line.
5) Any shot of sending your 8 weeks vacation policy over here? :)
First I have to say I retired from the Underground nearly 10 years ago and its changed a lot since then.
We worked to agreements made and modified with management over the years - on the Central we worked to the agreements made when "gatemen" were replaced with conductors in the early 1900s - ie when sliding doors replaced end-of-car gates and the train crew went down from 5 to 2. (Gateman's cash allowance was paid quarterly - a few Pounds - up to abolishment around 1985!)
On the District we worked to the 1905 "steam" agreements - 1905 being when electictifiaction took place.
It was all pretty old fashioned - but we just worked to whatever the agreement was - a turn with "spare" on the 2nd half meant you went to the Station Manager at the end of the first half and asked if he had a job, if he said "no" you went home.
With upwards of 300 crews at a Depot you could swap duties easily. Many Depots had "Mafias" - the best was at White City on the Central. The Godfather (one of the Drivers) had an unoffical agreement with local management, and he allocated you one of your favorite turns each week in place of the one you were rostered for. He matched up the preferences of the people in the Mafia (about 75 drivers) - in the 3 years I worked there I nearly always did a turn that started between 7am and 8 am.
As to the amount of work on a turn - the maximum was about 3 1/4 hours on the first half which was 3 or 4 times round the Circle or the same number of Hammersmith/Barkings on the H&C rostas, usually followed by 2 hours on the second.
A turn could end at the other end of the line, but return to depot time ("booking off") was included in the roster.
It was cranked up tighter when management got the upper hand in the Thatcherite era, and the agreements were replaced when One Person Operation came in in the 80s (we had women crews by then so they renamed them One Person instead of One Man).
You could change Depots every 5 years I think, but we used to advertise at the Depot we wanted to go to next, and swap with someone after about a minmum of 6 months - thats how I got off the Jubilee and the terrible 83 Stock after a few months.
From Sydney, may I put a question or three please?
I gather drivers (operators) are allocated to a depot and work all turns (rosters) at that depot throughout their time there based on the roster. But driving on one line, say the Central, must get a bit boring, so how often can drivers change lines/depots?
If I were based at Neasden, would I work on both the Met and Jubilee lines, or one and not the other, for example? Would an operator work on one line before his break and the other afterwards, for example?
Thirdly, the District D stock. These have door opening buttons for passengers from the first day and I was in London again last month, and they were still working quite well both from passenger and train perspective.
Are they just a good job, or what - that is a pretty highly stressed line at times, so they can't be too bad.
Do Circle line trains continue circling now, or do they terminate at an intermediate point and return. I noted a few with Faringdon St and Edgeware Rd, for example in the short time in London.
Cheers and thanks for your input over the last few days.
Ian
Do Circle line trains continue circling now, or do they terminate at an intermediate point and return. I noted a few with Faringdon St and Edgeware Rd, for example in the short time in London.
They continue to make the full circle. However, I think they use certain stations as waypoints to indicate to passengers which direction they're heading around the circle.
-- David
Chicago, IL
When I have seen Circle Line trains with destinations on them, they have been going out of service and those have been the last stations.
The directions on the Circle Line are constant: the outer track goes clockwise, the inner track anticlockwise (or counterclockwise if there are Americans on the train!)
John
Clockwise Circle are known as "Outer Rail" to Operators, and the inner direction "Inner Rail".
They run continuosly throughout traffic in one direction from about 5am to midnight.
Over years of running it was been found that stock needed ro be reversed round triangle points such as Alsgate to run both rails equally as wheel tyres wore down more on the inner side of the trucks, casuing the stock to lean over!!!
Traditionally the Circle was operatied by the Met and District out of Neasden, Hammersmith, Whitechapel & Parsons Green, with the District doing most of turns on Sundays to keep them up to par.
However it is now nearly all a Neasden Rosta, with Trains starting down the Met Main then out onto the Circle, with some reversing along the way at various turn round stations to provide the opposite service.
It is not a big service - in my day about 5 or 6 in each direction.
The stock is "C" Stock built 1969/77 with a curious electro-pneumatic/electronic control system with permanent series motor pairs, rheostatic brakes, EP/Westinghouse brake (as per all clasic transit)and the most alarming wheelspin/slide tendencies. Very jerky and uneven to operate, but fitted with 4 sets of double doors per car and minimal seating to allow maximum loading.
It is also used on the H&C and District Wimbledon - Edgware Road locals, and can be seen reversing at all sorts of odd spots round the Met and District, so you have to check the Destination Indicator as you can never be to sure where they're going. I've operated one express over the Hammersmith - Acton road to Ealing, to the confusion of everyone!!
I've always said that some of the LU lines need side destination signs such as the ones on the new GEC Alsthom trains.
Personally I HATED riding and waiting for a Circle Line train. I know that it has to go through many interlockings causing delays, but knowing the reason doesn't make the endless waits any easier.
Over years of running it was been found that stock needed ro be reversed round triangle points
Are you referring to a turning wye?
Yes, on the West End Met and District, trains were turned via Earls Court, High St Kensington and Gloucester Rd and on the East End between Tower Hill, Aldgate and Aldgate East or they could be run right round the Circle and then swapped over to the opposite road
As the Circle Line uses the same (C) stock as the Hammersmith & City Line (also the Edgware Rd-Wimbledon part of the District Line) you need to observe the following easy guide!
Circle Line requires 14 trains, 7 outer rail,7 inner rail
Train numbers are displayed on the front cab door as
201 thru 207 (outer)
211 thru 217 (inner).
Hammersmith and City needs 22 trains
Wimledon-Edgware Rd needs 10 trains
Destinations on the circle line should just read Circle Line so any train showing Farringdon etc may be a Hammersmith and City train terminating short of its destination.
Some more facts 138 x 2 car units are on the roster making 46 x 6 car trains ( formed 3 units: motor-trailer,trailer-motor,trailer-motor).
Rob:^)
On the platform signs, it would say, for example at Bayswater, the clockwise direction would say "Circle Line via Baker St." and for counterclockwise it would say "Circle Line via Victoria"
Some District line trains would terminate at the middle track at Tower Hill, do some Circle line trains ever end there?
A far as I am aware, no.
Simon
Swindon UK
I have heard that during recent disruptions due to engineering work, oddities such as Hammersmith to Whitechapel via the Circle Line have run. Don't know what destination signs were used though as I have never seen one.
I guess I missed it then -- the Jubilee was one line I never got around to riding. (I also never rode the East London or the W&C. The H&C, at the time, was just one branch of the Metropolitan; I'm not sure if I rode both. Oh, and I did ride the DLR, not long after it opened.)
I remember old trains on the Northern line (Charing Cross - Edgware branch, if it makes a difference). Was that 1938 stock?
>>>>I remember old trains on the Northern line (Charing Cross - Edgware branch, if it makes a difference). Was that 1938 stock?
I believe that was 1959 stock. Those trains were retired in 2000 and were the last trains to use conductors (referred to as guards). I got to ride them for only three stops. Better than nothing.
I remember one train with a 1938 stock livery, to celebrate the 100th
anniversary of the Northern line. I wish they keep some of the cars
somewhere. Or at least make them the next generation of Isle of Wight trains!
They do. 1938 tube stock is alive and (reasonably) well on the Isle of Wight, which is about two hours from Waterloo Station (take the train to Portsmouth, take the ferry, and a unit will be waiting at Ryde). Catch them before they close the line down.
>>>>Catch them before they close the line down.
Why would they close the line down? Is the service seasonal?
The isle of Wight is a wonderful place, but not as popular a holiday destination as it used to be, and these days people prefer to drive to their holidays. There is only a polulation of 100,000 on the island, and the three main towns that the line serves are about 10,000 people each (Ryde, Sandown, Shanklin). There are no obvious successors to the 1938 stock, and press reports suggest that the line is the most highly subsidised per passenger in the country (which I cannot believe). Operationally, a half-witted cost cutting scheme has left the line with a 20-40 service frequency, connecting with a 30 minute ferry service.
Other suggestions have included trams and a quided busway, but as the island has a surprisingly good and busy (albeit very expensive) bus service, death by gradually falling to pieces is also a possible option.
In the meantime, Portsmouth-Gosport has just had a new light rail scheme authorised, which includes a tunnel sunk under the harbour, which will make quite a contrast.
> 1938 tube stock is alive and (reasonably) well on the Isle of Wight
I am aware of that. I was thinking about the one train of 1959 stock
painted with 1938 stock livery.
Are they going to close the line? I didn't know that.
I rode the 1938 stock almost everyday on the Bakerloo and the
Northern back in 78. I hated them back then, and miss them so much now.
Sorry, misread your post. No chance of 1959 stock making an appearance on the island. Thanks to posts by other people, I now know why 1983 stock has not been purchased. Some 1972 stock has been scrapped, but no noises about going to the island. 1967 stock can't go there, which just leaves 1973 stock, whenever it gets replaced.
> Some 1972 stock has been scrapped
Ouch, MkI or MkII?
MkI used to be on the Northern, and MkII(red doors) mostly on the
Bakerloo around 1978. Later, MkII were on the Jubilee while 1938
were gathered on the Bakerloo.
BTW, I had some friends from Paris in town (NYC) last week,
and was told how antiquated the NY system looked,
even though their system is older.
Aaaah, Do something MTA!
The Mark 2 stock is alive and well on the Bakerloo Line including around 4 trains converted from Mark 1 stock.
All the Mark 1 stock is stored with some cars being scrapped, to note however are:
car 3530 to the Museum
unit 3215 to the Bakerloo as a shunting unit at London Road Depot
cars 3515 4528 4515 3528 being converted to a rail grinding train, car 4515 away being fitted with equipment at an outside contractor.
One unit was/is also stored on the closed Aldwych Branch for use as a training train by the Emergency Response Unit (ERU) and the London Fire Brigade.
Regards Rob:^)
Thanks for that. Surprised that 1972 stock is going to the LT museum. Shouldn't they be waiting for 1967 stock, which was the more significant design.
Travelled on the Victoria Line for the first time in ages the other day. Hard to believe that they are way past their 30th Birthday. Also, had forgotten how comfortable the seats were compared with awful seats on more recent trains (especially Central Line). Shame about the ride though.
The last time I rode on the Victoria line was in 93 or 92.
It was during peak hours and the trains were really crowded.
Some of the trains had grafitti on them, too.
The first time I rode on that line, the line was shiny and new.
UK still used the old currency system and I had tickets
showing prices like /6, 2/- on them. I probably still have those
tickets somewhere, back at my parents house.
The TA started modernizing the system in the 70's. Fortunately, those modernizations are coming down. The original IRT and BMT stations are truly artistic; I'd rather see the original art than a modern blue-and-white coverup job.
And let's not forget that the subway runs all night, unlike nearly every other subway system, so the TA doesn't have free reign for a few hours each day.
38 Stock spent its final years, when it was re-introduced in the mid 80s, in original its livery of dark red, gold lettering, cream window pillars and grey roofs.
Inside they had bright green paint (called Cerulean Blue by the Management!)and colourful red/green uphostery.
The roof at the front was rounded with a chevron ventilator in the middle.
It is too good a stock to waste and can still be seen languishing at various locations.
All subsequent Stock since the war is aluminum and ran for most of its life unpainted.
1959 stock was generally unpainted until its end, and was differnet from 38 in that the roof wasn't rounded had side ventilators and the inside was boring grey!
Did the second batch of '1983' stock address any of these problems?
I only drove on the Jubilee for few months in the early 80s - thank God! Swapped for H&C and the strange and baffling "C" Stock - but at least it had a beautiful Westinghouse that made up for everything else!
So, has anybody noticed what I was getting at? If you put "sadly missed" in the same sentence as "1983 stock", with the last two numbers, the 8 and the 3, transposed the result is "sadly missed 1938 stock"... This is the point I was driving at here: the 1938 stock is very sadly missed, and the 1983 stock isn't (as far as I know) because it was rubbish - total rubbish. I don't know if the legend about how the Batch I trains were originally accidentally built too large for tube tunnel clearances is true, but it wouldn't surprise me. On that note, can anybody say for sure whether or not that is true?
-Robert King
yeah i got the 38 - 83 reference - the 38 was a masterpiece, just watch your head on the retarder housing!!
conventional wisdom on the first batch of 83s was that the car bodies flexed too much and fouled the gauge, so they put in floor to roof grab poles to stabilise them!
Last time I was at Uxbridge some 83 stock was parked there, looking a bit sad though. I thought I saw a unit at Northfields.
Simon
Swindon UK
sadly no longer with us applies to the majority of the first batch.
Batch 1, 3601-3630
Batch 2, 3631-3663
Many cars have been stored at various locations,the'plan' is to increase the number of trains on the Piccadilly Line by running 1983 stock or to lenghten Picc trains by adding a 1983 stock trailer or driving cars in the centre as non-driving cabs.
When we look back over time the scrapping of these cars I'm sure will be seen as a big mistake especially with the current demand for 'Tube' services in London and the push for more Trains Per Hour which is on many lines at the maximum the signalling sysytem can cope with.
Regards Rob:^)
I just got back from London last night. I already knew what the "open" buttons were for, but like you, I never had to use them. On the Docklands light rail, however, I had to push them for the doors to open. That was the only time I had the use them.
I will post more about my trip later tonight when I have more time. The UndergrounD is friggin' awesome as hell!!!
The date(s) have been firmed up as Tuesday July 10th with a rain date of Thursday July 12th.
Here is the route plan:
I'll be leaving from Main Street on the Flushing line (#7) at 4 PM. So any who want to join me on a
Red Bird ride please be, either on the East end of the platform (with in fare control), or near the new
booth on the East end. I'll talk you thru some of the sights along the way.
Next I'll arrive at Times Square about 4:45, where I'll take the 8th Avenue Express, A, to Jay Street
Brooklyn. I probally won't be waiting for any particular type of train. There I'll be doing a light supper
at Burger King which is one block down a cross street from Jay.
6 PM our trip starts in earnest at Jay Street. I plan to catch the first R-38, i.e. Railfan Window equiped
train after 6. We'll make one stop at Rockaway Blvd. to see where A splits off to Leffert's Blvd, and
view the old LIRR ROW (some in disuse, some in use by TA). Hopefully the next R-38 won't make
us wait too long. Back on our way we'll cross Jamaica Bay and head for Far Rockaway.
Now it's time for LI Bus N33 to take us accross the inlet and down Park Street in Long Beach. We'll
see the area change form cramped summer cottages to fine homes to shops and fine resturants. Our
destination is the LIRR Long Beach station. Here it's either a short walk to the beach or a ride on the
City of Long Beach bus. There's a place right on the Boardwalk to wet your whistle or get a Ice
Cream ... they serve food, but I need to determine when the kitchen closes.
We'll need to walk back because the bus makes a big loop before it heads back to the LIRR station.
Here we have two choices:
- LI Bus N15 will connect with N4 at Merrick Road in Rockville Centre. This will bring you back to
Jamaica ... I'll be taking this route, as it drops me off two blocks from home.
- LIRR, for about $4 you'll get a lovely ride to Jamaica where you can catch the LIRR to Atlantic
Avenue, or Penn Station. The E, J & Z are also available there.
It's going to be one of the best ways I know of to enjoy a subway/bus ride & a warm summer night.
Join us by yourself or with a date, it will be fun. I already have a "core" group signed up, so the trip
will be on the dates above unless both are rained out, but I would love to have more of my Sub/Bus
Talk friends join us.
Thurston Clark - Tour Coordinator
Both the Surface Transportation Board and the Federal Railway Administration have OK'ed Amtrak's request to travel at 79mph on the new track that will support Boston (North Station) to Portland, Maine service. Read the full story from the Destination:Freedom newsletter (3rd story down).
Good news.
The GRS wants Amtrak to test the 79mph before they start. The only problem is how are they going to test that speed as the GRS feels it is dangerous for a train to do. As part of the compromise Amtrak is going to have some sort of track car thing w/ testing equipment run at 79.
Actually the "track car thing w/ test equipment" will run at a very slow speed. That was last week's beef from GRS. It seems they wanted extra compensation for "slowing down the line." Kind of ironic when you realize the speeding up of the line was a result of this project!
I went to Maryland on a vacation after Graduation last tuesday the 26th of june. Anyways, I went to Maryland for a Church trip. Anyways all I really saw was the New Carrolton station, Camden yards, and Marylands MTA buses. Their Busses look like our Orions and Their Trains look good too! Also Amtrak has Color Position lights down there. Not to mention I saw a SEPTA train for the first time. It looked like a Subway and it had Subway style signals.
but I came into New York Over the Verrazano Bridge and saw Stillwell Avenue station and CI yards. I saw a R32 N and said I AM HOME!!!!!
The MBTA has updated its Silver Line Web site. For now, it's BRT ("bus rapid transit," a potential oximoron), but potentially upgradable to light rail in the (far) future. It's more likely we'll see a full 2nd Avenue subway in NYC first :-(
I don't know what MBTA is using for their Silver LIne web site, but it crashed IE for me three times in a row. I could open it with Netscape, however.
-- Ed Sachs
when is it goning to open?
Read the Web site! It's gonna be a looooong time before it's done (if ever...)
Before or after the big dig is completed?
Some parts of the Silver Line would be done by Spring 2002. The rest would be done by 2010 b/c the Tunnel is going to take a LONG TIME!!
Some of it will be done in 2003 it will be fully done in 2010.
when is it goning to open? went there last week to North station ,you know just to see the progress, it looks like their just about finished with every thing. THE BIG DIG on the ohter hand still looks like one big hole in the ground, but the new bridge is one beauitful sight,for sure. ill be taking another trip there soon enough,just for a look see.
The North Station complex is YEARS from completion. They haven't even started digging under North Station for the Green Line relocation. The only part about done (due to open this month) is the entrance to the north end of the Orange Line station.
"The North Station complex is YEARS from completion. They haven't even started digging under North Station for the Green Line relocation."
I think the tunnel under north station was built as part of the fleet center, the par t that needs to get done is under the old Boston garden. I think the superstation itself is almost complete and will not open for a few years.
Just the shell of the station is completed under the Fleet Center/North Station. You are correct about needing to tunnel under the old Boston Garden. In addition, the tunnels and ramps leading out of the new station to meet up with the elevated bridge over the Charles River needs to be constructed. Here's the MBTA Web site information. [Note that the opening of the north end of the Orange Line station at North Station has been delayed from May... until June... now into July. When I went by this morning, it looked like it's near completion. Even the escalators were running!]
Well, at least it's being built. There's always potential for future improvement.
One thing which a busway is vulnerable to, though - drivers who press politicians for access to it. If cars are allowed in there, you can basically trash the whole project.
"If cars are allowed in there, you can basically trash the whole project."
Not likely...... the busway starts in Southie and ends in a loop at South Station, below ground and above the Red Line. No egress there. Besides, a new traffic tunnel will run from that same area (Teddy Tunnel) and connect with the new "Dig" and the Mass Pike.
I wonder what the buses will look like?
"but potentially upgradable to light rail in the (far) future."
It may happen sooner than we think that the new Red Sox ballpark is built on fan pier. The state has approved $100 million dollars for the project but it can only be used on public improvements such as roads and transit.
"but potentially upgradable to light rail in the (far) future."
It may happen sooner than we think that the new Red Sox ballpark is built on fan pier. The state has approved $100 million dollars for the project but it can only be used on public improvements such as roads and transit.
The Website says that the W is supposed to stop at 49th street. Then 42nd and 34. skip 28, 23rd, stopping at 14th. Skipping Prince and Canal, stopping at Bridge line Canal street, heading over the bridge, takes B indication assuming it will go Exp on 4th av. Here is a question. I thought the W was going to be going on the Middle track all the way down Bway!
How will this work?
I think it will switch between local and express between 42nd and 34th.
This is necessary since the Q will be terminating at 57th Street/7th Ave while the W will be continuing to Queens.
:-) Andrew
The W goes to the local track north of 42nd Street. I can not use the express tracks at 57th St because Q trains will be relaying there (changing directions) and it would cause a delay in service.
It crosses between 34th and 42nd in both directions. No express-local xover between 42 and 49th.
Why can't the northbound Q discharge its passengers at 57th St, continue north, reverse direction, and then re-enter 57th on the southbound side? Then there might not be a delay in W service?
Having Queens-bound Broadway expresses stop at 49th is an ancient BMT tradition, dating back at least to the 1950s when the Brighton Express ran to Astoria. We wouldn't want to muck with tradition, would we?
-- Ed Sachs
It also carried to recent tradition, the Southern B in the 80s flip stopped at 49th, and during that brief time in 1990 the N Broadway Express stopped at 49th as well.
I had the old DOS Bahn on my computer but downloaded the new Bahn 3.70 for Windows a few months ago. Now I'm getting a message that the "trial" period of 62 days is over soon and that I have to register or some functions may be locked. What functions are affected? Is it possible someone could someone email the registration key over to me.
It's in Germany and I sure don't feel like sending any $$ there, even if I had the dough (the prog does not list US dollar amount). There's usually a way of "beating" the registation system so if anyone could help me I'd appreciate it.
Do you like the program? Do you think it's worth any money at all?
What about getting a "friend" with a different log-on to register to use it.
Not to be a total prude, but there's nothing wrong or even unreasonable with what the company is doing. If you want to use a program someone else worked really hard on, why not pay for it? You'll get tech. support that way.
I assume you're afraid your check will be cashed and no registration sent to you, and there's no US affiliate to send the money to...
Exactly. They don't even have dollar amounts. Bahn 3.70 is an excellent program probably worth $20, but I'd rather spend less for it.
If it was in the U.S. I wouldn't hesitate as much, but since the author is far away I am hesitant about it.
Not paying for the registration is akin to jumping the turnstiles ya know ... "theft of service" it's called. Simple solution if you don't wanna pay for it, don't use it. Sorry for chiding in, but I take a lot of guff for not putting out "demo versions" of the software we sell. You just answered the question ... It's like showing up for work every day and your employer decides not to pay you. I'm sure it would get you a bit peeved, same for the poor schlumps that write software. The reason for the timeout is the guy who wrote Bahn got tired of not getting paid, so he put a cop by the turnstiles in the form of deactivation.
Well it seems the DOS version was freeware. Never had to pay for it. I wonder why this was changed with the newer version.
It was shareware. You had to pay. But now they have things in the program making sure of it. Go to your e-mail Inbox and read my message. ---You're welcome.
Howdy and please don't be offended by what I said ... when you write code for Windows, it gets very expensive. To do it properly as just one example, you have to pay $500.00 a year to Microsoft for a MINIMUM "MSDN subscription" just to keep up with all the changes. With over 35 different "versions" of Windows (the 8 major versions and then toss in IE service packs, windows service packs and other hijinx) you end up having to jump through hoops to make something reliably work with all of them. Then there's the "support issues" of "it doesn't work."
All of that adds up to torture and expense for folks who write code for Windows and they end up having to charge something for it or the software goes the way of "Mechanik" ... too expensive to maintain for free and thus it dies. It's one reality for someone who is a student or has "other funding" for the development. Don't mind me though, I make my own living on Billyware and I understand what it's like. A lot of software creators put their work out there expecting to see some money roll in, it never does and they get frustrated. Some put lockouts in in order to get paid, others give up entirely and a small number turn to writing viruses to "get even" with their users. NASDAQ made the "software biz" look like an easy gold mine. Then there's those of us who have been at it for decades and know better. :)
I have bahn 3.70 Beta, and it has no such blocking force. It does keep an internal count of how long you've been using it, though. It also says "this program run [however long you used it] without a General Protection Fault!" If you run it for longer than 20 minutes. I could send it to you if you want...
Well I'm gonna wait and see what happens. The functions that are blocked I may not even use!
The function is the ability to have the layout in motion. After 62 days, everything is still.
Oh well then that serves no purpose having it still. Well when I get around to it (in the future when I've got the dough) I'll register it.
The reason the DOS version was not time sensitive is that the author had a little more faith in fellow human beings than he really should have. BAHN started out as a "labor of love" for Jan Bochmann, the author. A LOT of time and effort have gone into the program.
He got a total of 14 (fourteen!!) shareware payments for version 3.59.
Hell, there's more than ten times that many peoples' names on layouts produced with Bahn 3.59 at various sites around the world.
I don't blame Herr Bochmann for putting a trial period expiration into the program. (And guess what, I paid for it, and I DO have the codes to get rid of the expiry notice permanently. NOBODY will get them from me. Don't ask.)
It is not that hard to pay for the program...especially if you live in NYC. Go to any bank that will exchange US$ into DM (Deutschmarks). Give them $20.00 worth of US currency, plus whatever the exchange fee is, and send whatever amount of DM you get. It will cost maybe a whole buck to mail it to Herr Bochmann.
Perhaps if more people pay for the program, some more developments/upgrades can be made....and your consciene (if you have one) will be clear.
First I'm gonna wait and see what options are frozen after registration period ends. If I need them then I'll send the fee. But isn't it easier to wire the money to the author? The numbers are given on the Bahn web site and in the program itself.
There is a way around this, that I may do for awhile but eventually when I have the $$ I'm gonna pay.
I have had shareware progs in the past and paid for them, but the only reason I get a funny feeling is sending money abroad. It's a shame such great programs like BAHN aren't written by anyone in the US (same goes for Mechanik and that Japanese program). The best we get in the U.S. is MSTrainsim, and that is less reliable than a LI Bus.
Trainsim is plenty reliable, just because SelkirkTMO had a bad batch of disks dont mean nothin, I know 4 people besides myself who purchased the program here in NYC with nonoooooooooooo problems, and we are enjoying it quite nicely, BTW just downloaded a great SW900, what fun.
Yo yo yo! Actually got a set of disks that worked ... got it all installed and it STILL bombed ... as it turns out, it's MIGHTY fussy about the video card too. My old Matrox Millenium II apparently wasn't supported after all the struggles ... 500 miles on the odometer and no "only supports these ten cards" on the package ... I don't care if Microsoft has a REAL train in the box anymore. :)
But glad to hear SOMEONE got the pig working. But I did manage to get a little throttle time in last week from a buddy of mine so I'm feeling a BIT better. Heh.
Trainsim is plenty reliable, just because SelkirkTMO had a bad batch of disks dont mean nothin, I know 4 people besides myself who purchased the program here in NYC with nonoooooooooooo problems, and we are enjoying it quite nicely, BTW just downloaded a great SW900, what fun. also the Japanese program is called BVE Boso View Express
This looks great for people who want to try Acela. Railfans can split the cost of a tix on the weekend to get their first ACELA Experience.
Fare Details
This offer is available for sale 6/20 - 9/20/2001, and is only valid on Acela Express weekend services (Saturdays & Sundays) from 6/23 - 9/23/01. Blackout dates are 8/31 - 9/2/01. No refund is available for the regular-fare ticket, without the surrender of the free companion ticket. This offer is subject to change fees if applicable. Reservations must be made and tickets purchased at least three (3) days prior to travel. Tickets must be purchased within three days of reservation. Full-fare passenger and companion must travel together on the same itinerary and are subject to the same restrictions, blackouts and exchange fees. Offer cannot be combined with any other promotion, offers, or standard Amtrak discount. There is an additional charge for First Class accommodations. Fares are based on availability and are subject to change without notice. When calling for information or reservations, refer to fare code H155. Amtrak Guest Rewards double point offer is only valid for the full fare paying passenger and does not apply to the companion travel. Amtrak Guest Reward offer is restricted to specific cities within the Northeast and is only valid for travel during 6/23 - 9/23/01. Other restrictions may apply and are subject to change without notice.
Mrs. Keystone Pete and I are vacationing in Boston and Maine at the end of the month, and this email hit my inbox right as I was booking the travel! Turns out, compared to a direct shuttle flight at the desired times, the Acela offer, with what amounts to a 25% discount (no promo on the NYP-BOS leg, free companion fare on the return) saves us $35! We're renting a car @ Logan, so I hope the blue line is running. I can't wait to go 150mph! I plan some railfanning on the T and another visit to STM. :O)
Well come on up Pete! It will be good to see you again. The Blue Line should be running, but it's still skipping Aquarium Station due to Big Dig work. Make sure you ride the newly refurbished PCCs on the Mattapan-Ashmont line.
...As long as the Airport Station and shuttle-bus is still operating. It'll be a Thursday. I decided the airport car-rental location, as opposed to downtown, would be best, since I'm heading north, and I know the route (more roundabouts than New Jersey!). The Ashmont PCC is first on my list for T-fanning. You know me & trolleys. I'll email u later when itinerary is finalized (subject to spousal approval!), and hope to see u again @ STM. I only wish I had qualified this year at Rockhill. Someday, I'd like a crack @ the City of Manchester, since Dad operated it long ago...
If you're a single rider sans companion...
could this offer buy you a Northbound ticket
at regular price and a Southbound ticket
for FREE??
No, it doesn't work that way... wish it did! I'd visit my daughter a couple of more times this summer.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
he's back ... after a long absence, heypaul that is ... and using caps? or was that a mistake ?
welcome back !
Mr t__:^)
Wonder of wonders!!! I checked the MTA website this afternoon and they have 3 pages on the upcoming MB changes.
http://www.mta.nyc.ny.us/nyct/subway/mn_bridge.htm
It was not there this morning so they must have done updating after lunch.
And I guessed August 10th in an earlier thread. I am humbled in their presence (well , for a few seconds anyway).
It appears that they are still working on the web page because the borough links on the upper left are still "dead." Now when will they update the full map?
Jose
The problem has been fixed.
Chaohwa
Only from the map -- not from the highlights page.
Some of the pages claim the service change began yesterday, as originally planned.
The highlights page also claims that the new routes are explained at the right -- but nothing's on the right.
Worst of all, the only link is a small image on the NYCT front page (that appears to have replaced the DETOUR link that should still be available). Even on the service advisories page, nothing is posted.
I was on a Q Train this morning crossing the bridge. We were running slow because of some workers on the tracks. The train eventually stopped. I spotted 2882 and friends at DeKalb on the bypass tracks. When my train passed, the bridge under was shaking, then another train passed next to us. And the train left but it kept shaking. Then I saw the 4 car set cross on the other side and we started moving again. At the mid-end of the bridge, another set from Canal Street came up and went across but the one from Brooklyn blocked my vision of the other's number plates. But the bridge actually had an up and down motion. This is called fixed?
It's a suspension bridge. Suspension bridges are supposed to wobble a bit.
Actually, the bridge is trying to tell everyone that it misses itss friend, the Sea Beach, and is bummed out about it.
The bridge is actually saying, "Oh, my aching deck!".
Wow, then how is the metal able to not crack from so much wobbling? Wait, isn't that the problem.
Flexible joints.
If it is not able to wobble a little then it would *have* to crack.
Elias
Now we have a bridge with both.
Suspension bridges are supposed to wobble a bit.
That wobble is about 12 feet.
Hey, that's nothing compared to designer Robert Moisseiff's later masterpiece, the Tacoma Narrows Bridge.
The Manhattan Bridge has a wider deck, and does not use plate girders as a stiffening truss. Plus it doesn't roll and undulate the way ol' Galloping Gertie did when the winds blow.
Again, remember that this 1909 bridge should have had the tracks on the inside....I believe tension would have been greatly reduced if that were the case, as is the case with the Williamsburg, which has MUCH less vibration than the M B.
believe it or not, the Willy Bis actually 3 bridges in one.
Bridges can wobble. And they will. They just can't fall down.
Hmmm they can't? Look back to Tacoma Narrows in 1940. That one bit the dust fast!
Spotted ex LIRR Geeps 261 & 271 on a siding in Riverhead. 271 still has the original livery while 261 has the NY&A livery. It was kinda faded, but it still looked nice. I think the crew was on lunch.
What ever happened to the 1964 World's fair Monorail? Is the structure still up, is it still running, what have they done with it?
The monorail is long gone. For a brief history of it, click here. There's a picture of one surviving car on page 5.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Thanks for the fascinating pictures and info! I visited the Fair 17 times, but never rode the monorail! It think that was because it cost extra. Also, it just ran around the amusement area instead of going to the main Fair area to the north.
it is LONG GONE.
remember I was YELLING to you about how they took it down after the fair? You remember not , my canadian moose friend.
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!
HEY???????
Parts of the 1964 Monorail were used in the construction of the ill-fated Springfield Monorail.
dho!
MONO THING A MA JIG
Answers for Exam 0536 taken on May 19, 2001. Other tests for Sabbath Observance, etc. will have different answers.
1B
2A
3A
4C
5B
6C
7A
8B
9D
10D
11A
12D
13B
14B
15D
16A
17D
18C
19A
20B
21A
22C
23B
24B
25B
26D
27C
28A
29D
30B
31D
32A
33D
34B
35B
36D
37A
38D
39A
40D
41A
42B
43B
44C
45B
46B
47D
48B
49B
50B
51B
52A
53A
54B
55D
56B
57C
58C
59B
60B
61D
62C
63A
64D
65A
66C
67B
68B
69D
70B
71A
72C
73B
74D
75C
76B
77C
78C
79D
80D
Hope you did well.
Great; what were the questions?
Dan
There was a rumor that only 55 people passed and 15 of them were disqualified.
I am a "close Personal Freind" with one who has passed.. we are haviving a BIG party tonight...
Peace,
ANDEE
As of now, it appears that I have passed. Barely. If the posted answers are correct, then I roughly got a final score of 76 or 77.
Not bad for 15 minutes worth of studying, eh?
Congrats to you both. Must of been one of those wonderful TA rumors.
My favorite was that the off-the street guys got paid a dollar more than the promotionals.
I've heard a rumor that less than 100 people passed the test. Has anyone else heard about it?
I'm guessing that this rumor is just that, a rumor and nothing else.
I was hearing the same thing over here on the A Div. I hear a lot of people failed that test.
I've been hearing somewhere between 40 and 50 people passed. I've also heard that some of the listed answers are wrong.
Two observations that I noticed on my weekend jaunt to the Big Apple that maybe someone could comment on. First stoped by the Visitors center on Seventh Ave for some info. While there picked up official guide book. The TA has a four page pamphlet about the Manhattan Bridge service changes. The map they have shows the F using the 53rd st tunnel I thought the F was to use the 63rd tunnels? Funny thing in the official guide book they show the July subway map with all the new routes yet when I asked for one at the 50th & Broadway station they gave me a map from March. Go figure.
The 63rd St Tunnel changes become effective in November. The map is correct for the July 22nd changes.
As for the map, we’re all waiting for the new one…
Now Car 7381-7390 and 7411-7420 are running in service as of the PM Rush Hour on 7/2/01.
I had the 7381-7390 series on the last trip we had no problems. A rail buff was asking me how many R142's were in service. I wonder if that may have been anyone from this board.
I thought so, I rode on 7381 (the 1536 out of 77th street) smelt brand new, didn't have a chance to get the barcode off. I do have 7360's barcode though.
Barcode, eh?
Yep, straight from Toys R Us!!! ;-)
You took the barcode?? I know where they are placed.
Why are you vandalizing the trains?? Minor I admit but vandalism nevertheless.
What is the function of this barcode?
Peace,
ANDEE
Path trains have barcodes next to the doors, that indicate the car number and door panel number. I assume that whenever maintenance is performed they zap the bar code to keep track in a database. If you're removing the bar codes it's only going to piss someone off who is expecting to be able to scan it some time...
I had the impression from posts here that the bar codes were something important only at the factory.
Thanks for posting that, Dave. OK you guys, knock it off. Leave the train equipment alone...
I'm sure the barcodes are used only at checkout time once the trains actually work, they'll ring 'em up at the cashier's counter. Wonder what would happen if a barcode from a whole beef ham was substituted. :)
ROTFLMAO
You'll get a coupon good for $1.00 off your next purchase of a subway car.
Only if you have a Bombasaki debit card. :)
ONLY $1.00? Fuggeddabboudddittt!
--Mark
He's taking them for what purpose? He has no right to do that.
-Stef
You know I was the C/R on that train it was the 3PM Pelham
You gonna try for the mail-in rebate?
I wonder where 7391-7400, and 7401-7410 are. Probably still at Unionport.
If you're wondering where R142As 7391 - 7400 are, they are in service as of this morning. Saw them at 3 Av - 138th St. while riding on #7246 on the 6 express this morning; they were going northbound to Parkchester.
I saw them on the way home tonight.
I counted of 16 Sets on the (6) Line and 5 Sets on the (2) Line
Regards,
T.Lo
www.transitalk.com
R-142s in Service
6301-10
6311-20
6321-25 and 6346-50
6326-35
Coming Soon 6336-45
6411-20
6421-30
6576-85
6586-90 and 6596-6600
6591-95 and 6601-05
Coming Soon 6501-05 and 6606-10
9 R-142 Train Sets working, 2 more on the way in
-Stef
on your coming soon list that you posted, all except 6606-10 is in service right now. 6411-20 is in service since monday 7/2/01 some are in the yards and would be selected for service later. coming soon from 207 6351-6410 coming in gradually after being fixed.
6356-60 is at Unionport right now. Signed up as:
5: To Bowling Green.
Via Lexington Ave Express
Bronx Express
That's exactly what I said: 6501-05 and 6606-10 are in test simulation mode.
6411-20 have been on the road for a quite a while.
Hopefully 6351-6410 will be ready to go shortly.
-Stef
I know you where on my train Monday on my second trip up. I seen you at Zerega Ave. I was on the R62 Northbound and sounded the horn.
OH CRAP, AWESOME!!!!!!!!!!
I thought someone blowing the horn at me was wierd! I was like do I know that person?!?!?!??!!!!
Regards,
T.Lo
www.transitalk.com
Well I hope you enjoyed the ride. I don't think the PA was working that good beacuse I couldn't hear myself make Announcments exept for the off side.
By the way the R142A behind that 7381-90 was mind to take down for the last one.
I got on that set, I detrained at the next stop and caught that one, I was doing a photo session on the entire bronx section of the (6) line, so I was hopping on and off the trains for about 3 hours!
Regards,
T.Lo
www.transitalk.com
Was this on Mon or Tues? If it was Monday, we must have just missed each other ... I was on the 2/5 and 6 lines all day (11am - 10pm).
--Mark
Hmmmm, 16 trains of R142As on the 6 line now? I guess it's time for the Pelham R62A to leave for their new home in Queens.
Not only that but expect salaam and John to lead a candle-light vigil and unity march for the redbirds. The march (scheduled for Labor Day) will begin at Willets Pt. Blvd and Roosevelt Ave. and end at the 38th St yard.
Well, we did a little R142 hunting yesterday and saw *11* trains in the yard. There were plenty of Redbirds and R62's on the 6 yesterday (Wednesday July 4). Apparently one of the problems is that not all the conductors and motormen are qualified to operate the R142's yet, or so I overheard.
The ones we saw on the road were:
7281-7290
7321-7330
7341-7350
7361-7370
7371-7380
7391-7400
7401-7410
That's 7 trains, plus the 11 in Westchester Yard makes 18, and I'm not positive we spotted all the ones in service. One of the trains we saw in the yard was 7381-7390 which has been reported here in the past week as "on the road". I guess it had yesterday off.
excuse me, but if you are whoi though you were, yesterday 7/4/01 i saw a heavy set man with two other men taking pics at Elder Av. on the north bound front end of the platform. i was on the manhattan bound R-142A from a return visit of my god sister. i was riding 7371-7380 when i saw the rail click. was that you mister Pirmann?
Yup, 2 big guys and a thin young guy. I was the one in the orange shirt.
ah! i was right! booya!
Actually the Pelham R62A's are making their way to ENY, Bklyn.(Livonia Yard) and 240th Yard. There are 30 cars on the the 3 already and about 20 cars on the 1.
Why do they need to transfer Pelham cars to 1?
Arti
I have several sources from the MTA telling that there will be a Conductor test soon. I graduated High skool last tuesday and if A test comes out, it would allow me to be a Conductor which is not far from my Ultimate Career goal as a Motorman. I will also attempt to apply for LIRR MNRR and PATH
Well the last test was in June of 1998.
I can also tell you that my friend scored a 900 on that test, and only got called a month ago for a urine test, and was told the ol' "you'll hear from us in 30-90 days".
It was not June of 1998, the conductor test was in July, 1999 & I took that test. They did start calling people last november, 2000 & i think the number is 700 or 800 now im not sure about that number.
Peace
David Justiniano
NYCT/MaBSTOA Traffic Checker Operation/Operation Planning
No, it was June of 1999.
You right vernon, future t/o it was in june 26, 1999 not july & i took another nyc transit test in july, 1999 that was NYCT/MaBSTOA Traffic Checker Test.
Peace
David Justiniano
NYCT/MaBSTOA Traffic Checker Operation/Operation Planning
Yeah, that was the one that i had missed by 3 days. The test was on the day after i graduated high school. Boy was i pissed. Then i took the T/O test in Jan. 2000, haven't been called up yet.
I took the June 1999 Exam and I was only in Grade 11. By the time they called me I had 5 Mouths out of High School and I was in the First O/C Conductor class in Nov. I was hired at 18 Years old.
Only 37 years till retirement for ya. And I thought that I had a long time to go with 8 in and 25 to go.
It was absolutely, positively JUNE 1998.
Someone help me here.
The conductors test that I registered for was in June 1998, not 1999. I know this for a fact, for several reasons.
I remember I was living in Astoria at the time, and for whatever reason, I was assigned to take the test at a HS on 18th Street in Manhattan. It was a Saturday, and the day was very hot. I also remember being assigned to the PM session which lead to me not taking the test. Why? Because two hours after the listed start time, we were all standing on the street, still waiting to get in to take the tes. I was so disgusted that I just left, called my girlfriend, and said, "$^#( this stupid job let's meet at Pizza Uno on 86th in Manhattan". We dated in the summer of 1998.
I also remember taking the Port Authority Police Exam in April 1998, and being accepted for that job in July 1999, but I turned it down.
There is just no way the conductors test was given in 1999.
I still have my Conductor Exam notice and the exam date was June 26, 1999. I did hear some people say there was also an Exam in 1998 which I didn't know about.
There was no Conductor test back in june, 1998 & the last Conductor test was taking in early 1994. Here click this link that have a date of the tests past 4 years.
Peace
David Justiniano
The first day I went to 1250 Bway they did that samething but got called 3 days after so I had to rush on the paperwork.
I am currently in the Assistant Conductor's training class (non-compensated), it is a demanding training program.
If you want to apply for the LIRR your need to have some sort of customer service experience (ie: bank teller, sales etc)on your resume and some college. They are hiring for the A/C position, they anticipate a few more classes in the next few years because of retirements. Not to discourage you, but it takes awhile to get called. LIRR gets 20,000 resumes a year for this position and they only select around 1,500 and then through the process get the candidates for the program. In my class there are 29 A/C trainees, so do the numbers. I was sending my resume for about 4 years before finally getting called. Go for it, my advice send a resume every day to the LIRR you never know.
Good Luck
If any new tests are scheduled, you'll read about it right here on SubTalk.
My advice to you, apply for everything and take the first thing that comes your way.
They are calling up Conductor fast from the current list. I seen a bunch of C/R's posing this week.
As reported here, the old facdae with the BMT Lines insigias is indeed gone. All that remains is the badly rusted I beam that held it up.
On the Stillwell Ave side, the stores that held the car service, pizza shop and corner convience store is all gone too. The corner convience store had that faded Coppertone Tan sign on it for many years.
On the left hand arcade, the long vacant bar is gone too, but Philips candy shop and stores on the right hand arcade still stand, but for how long?
On the first Stillwell update I posted a month or so ago, I stated that an old building next to Nathans was torn down. Now I know why. The land was blacktopped and there are numerous prefab concrete picnic tables and concrete stools still in their crates. I guess some more seating for Nathans patrons who would some hot dogs and fries before or after the Brooklyn Cyclones game. I stopped off at the Cyclones gift shop and bought a Cyclones white tee shirt with logo for $16.00, no sales tax was charged.
Bill "Newkirk"
there is no sales tax on clothing in NYC, for purchases under just a bit over $100
$110.
That's per item, IINM. I wonder if any shoe stores have started selling left shoes and right shoes separately.
Spotted today at 34th St/Penn Sta. on the 7th Ave Line heading south.
Consist of Redbirds all with lights off, all signs said the norm such as:
E.241st/White Plains Rd.
2 7th Ave. Exp.
But all southern destination signs were set at New Lots Ave, Brooklyn. Can anyone explain this ?
Bill "Newkirk"
Some southbound #2 and #5 trains on the AM rush operate to New Lots Avenue, and from New Lots on the PM rush. Not sure of the numbers, but there aren't many.
There are three #2 trains that operate from to/from Zoo Lots. There are six #5 trains that operate to/from there as well. I worked on most of these jobs. In fact I got one tomorrow.....
Car #9321 is sitting in CIY comply striped of every thing. It is sitting right behind the Fire School building. It can't be seen from "F" line. I saw it after I did A lay up. So I guess that this is a good time to get rid if the Singles since they don't use them in the summer anyway.
Robert
If they don't use the singles during summer, how do they manage to get 11 car consists on the 7 line? The R-33 Singles are the only revenue singles in the fleet.
Dan
They don't run 11 cars over the summer. Since they don't have A/C and no one would ride them anyway.
Robert
Sometimes they're nice when you have the strom doors open along with all the windows.
YES!!!
Thank you. I'll admit, in the 95 degrees and high humidity this past Saturday, those cars were hot as a bitch, but with all the openness and the fans, it was pretty neat. And with most people passing them over in favor of the AC cars (whimps!), there was more room to stretch out. It was funny, seeing ten cars packed with people standing, and the one car with a handful of people!
Also considering the singles are the very last of their kind (unairconditioned cars with fans).
I can just imagine, that not too long ago, most of the trains were like that! And not just one car per train, but entire trains of non-AC cars!
I guess I've been spoiled! It was kinda nice, though, I'm forced to admit, transferring to an (air conditioned) R-142(A???) #2 train after the #7 trip.
just wait until the r-142s ac BREAKS DOWN ! & then i bet not one subtalker here will be man enough to admit it when it does
happen as it will sooner than later ...!! LOL !!! .......
You still talking about that sir? Don't you want to shoot videos out of the RAILFAN WINDOW?
Well sir, only time will tell as to whether or not the 142s will live up to standards, but even you have to admit that subway cars get old.
-Stef
sir , you know the r-142s are full width transverse cabs & no railfan window ( small caps here ) lol !! as for getting old the r-142s
will age very fast !!! lol !!!
How are they different from all of the other cars they run in the summer w/o A/C?
None of the other cars are non-AC, except for a couple R-32's (which were supposed to have been AC equipped, but for some reason they're not, I'm not sure why).
There are cars with AC that doesn't work, but they get fixed when they're gotten around to.
"None of the other cars are non-AC, except for a couple R-32's (which were supposed to have been AC equipped, but for some reason they're not, I'm not sure why)."
These are the 10 R-32s that were GOH'd at General Electric. The ACs no longer work and parts are unavailable. The ACs on the M&K GOHd R-32s are not compatible.
To replace 20 ACs in the 10 R-32s doesn't seem cost effective to the TA, that's why they are on the future scrap list along with the R-38,40,421s.
Bill "Newkirk"
The R32GE were being used as movies trains today for MIB2. I saw them pulling into CIY at about 2:00pm loaded with movie equment. The north end car (4 car train) of the train had it's pantergraph removed.
Robert
Could they put compatible A/C units in the GE GOHd R-32s instead of scrapping them or are they going to be scrapped along with the R-38s?
BTW are the MK GOH R-32s on the future scrap list yet?
BMTJeff
"Could they put compatible A/C units in the GE GOHd R-32s instead of scrapping them or are they going to be scrapped along with the R-38s"
The AC units on the GOHd R-38s are the same. But is it cost effective or not to install them in those 10 cars ? Only the TA knows.
"BTW are the MK GOH R-32s on the future scrap list yet?"
The M&K overhauled will outlast the R-38,40 & 42s. In fact there was some talk on this board of them receiveing another overhaul of sorts, not to be confused with the installation of new flooring. Those Budd built R-32s are in such damn good shape, thats explains why they'll be around longer. Remember, new cars are very expensive, but if you have a car type that is in phenomenal shape, you can put off that new purchase by squeezing more years out of a current fleet such as the R-32s.
The R-38,40 & 42s, They are only stainless steel on the sides, not the roofs. These roofs are made of steel and have a corosion problem, that's why their days are numbered. Edwin Gowen Budd must be smiling down from heaven !
Bill "Newkirk"
No wonder the company went out of business.
If I'm not mistaken Budd built the older cars that were used on the Market Street line in the Philadelphia subway. I rode on those cars in 1996 and at the time they were in remarkably good condition. I think a few of them still survive.
BMTJeff
I would ride those cars no matter how hot it is.
Yes, that was all there was at one time were fans. Bad hair day.
they dont---some r62as are still singles
Oops, right. The R-33 singles are the only ones that can be used on the 7.
Dan
The 7 will be getting the R62 class later this year
R62A
Any idea when? October, November, perhaps? I'm hoping there will still be a few Redbirds plying the rails so I can ride them one last time come October.
November, last I heard
right
Depends on how long it takes to get the R-62s over to the Flushing Line. If the No. 7 is going to continue to use at least some Redbirds through the fall, dumping the singles right now would be silly once the temperatures cool down.
The moves from Westchester to Livonia have started. The 3 Line is nor running 1 5 car linked set from Westchester in addition to 4 of it's traditional singles.
Wait - I was getting some rides on the singles on the #7 this past Saturday, and I could've SWORN I saw 9321 in service.
Did they take them out of service already?
I want to ride them some more before they're gone for good!
Nope. That's 9321 at CIYD. But just because we see one doesn't mean they are all going to bite the dust tomorrow. Don't wait too long for those pictures and rides though.
The singles are very much in service today--the 7 appears to be running all 11 car trains. I counted 11 cars in four seperate trains.
Dan
They probably just dumped a spare.
BTW: Wasn't 9321 on the fantrip?
9321 was sitting in Corona Yard for awhile now, stripped of its parts. The last time I saw it was over at Shea for the Subway Series.
I was up at 207th St yard today. The following is a list of every Redbird in the yard and it's status. I hope you find it helpful.
Stripped and waiting to be loaded on barge. (No Doors, Windows, Seats, Underbody equiptment, etc.):
7750-1, 7752-3, 7754-5, 9486-7, 7836-7, 8610-1, 8654-5, 9544-5, 9508-9, 7834-5, 7788-9, 7814-5, 7870-1, 7902-3 and 9057.
Dead in yard (Parts removed)
8958-9, 9540-1, 9321
Stored in yard (All "alive")
9018-9, 7928-9, 7758-9, 7940-1, 7950-1, 7796-7, 7850-1, 7844-5, 7908-9, 7778-9, 7942-3, 8706-7, 7890-1, 8742-3, 9124-5, 8712-3, 9488-9, 8674-5, 8626-7, 9516-7, 8600-1, 9506-7, 8636-7, 9504-5, 9164-5, 9494-5, 8926-7, 8934-5
Stored, Signed for 7
9552-7, 9548-9
R33s 9321 which was at Coney, was transferred to 207 this week.
I hope this list helps. I will get any new #'s this week when I go back up there.
M.W.
Good work, man! You hear anything interesting on the grapevine?
-Stef
On that note, can you confirm if a R-26/28/29 is residing at Coney Island?
-Stef
YES! there are 4 or 8 cars there. I will have #'s tomorrow.
M.W.
Just got back from Coney Island Yard...... Aside from the Flushing cars there for regular maintenence, there are two R-29's there for scrap. They are: 8800-8801. I'll post any updates as soon as I hear anything.
M.W.
That figures! I had this pair down in my book with a little brown "R" for excessive rust! (one of many pairs). I am not surprised that they are farming out the R29 first; so many of them are in perilous condition - to wit. the 8500-series cars out of Pelham are ROTTEN to the core; I'm surprised they don't shake themselves apart.
wayne
Why is the R-29 worse off than its older cousins, the R-26 and R-28?
Their body panels probably had more Bondo than steel.
That's what I was looking for. Thank You! I thought there was a pair up against the bumping block at CIY next to the CWR Train, but wasn't sure what it was when I saw it.
Thanks! Let me know what else you find out....
-Stef
Geez, could 8800-01 be the first retired Birds to head to the Brooklyn Piers?
Well it's time to test out that upgraded trackage on the SBK.
-Stef
Umm, hehe, did you just say 9552-7, and 9548-9?
NNNNNNNNNOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!
I'd better find my camera and get pics of those mainlines before they're all gone! How many are left on the 7, three pairs?
Filming of Men In Black 2 was going on today and again tomowor in the Yard and Church ave. Broolkyn. Maybe someone can go there to get some autograph.
Robert
i live by there willbe there tomrrow with update before i head off to work
I saw some bright light coming up the B5 ramp and figured it was just a work train. (This during the extended GO over the express track).
Coming home today I saw a Wooden wall up on the center platform of the Chambers St Station on the 'J/Z M' lines. The wall goes the entire length of the platform from what I could tell. But the wall is built up near the edge of the platform (I think Geographic East Side or Brooklyn bound service side however you look at it). Anyway why is it there? Are they getting rid of the center platform?
Maybe it has something to do with the coming reallignment of the Nassau Loop tracks through the Canal Street station?
If they do cut the Nassau loop back to only two revenue tracks, the wall may be going in place to eventually support a false tile wall that will be put in when it is cut back to only the single platform on the west side of the station.
On the other hand, considering the condition of Chambers, if the wooden wall goes all the way up to the ceiling, it may be there to support some kind of pending repair work on the water leaks throughout the station ... or under the worst circumstances, the MTA may be putting in the wood wall to keep the Municipal Building from falling into the station :-)
While I do not know the reason for the wall, the two tracks will run from Canal to Essex. At Essex, the center and Broad Street Tracks will be used. Trains to Broad Street will use the wall platform and trains to Jamaica Center/ Metropolitan will use the island platform. At Canal and Bowery, the current Broad Street bound platform will be used
Do you know if the mezzanine on the south side of Delancey will be reopened? A bridge could be built over the track on that side, as was done in 1999. (It would have to be removable to allow moves from 6th Avenue, which can't access the center track.)
And when is the TA going to get around to building a temporary bridge over the two inner tracks at Canal? It's going to have to get built some day, since construction of the new track connection at the south end will sever the passageway there, leaving northbound passengers stranded on their platform. Or will the passageways from the northbound platform to the bridge platforms reopen temporarily? (They're still there -- the one on the southbound bridge platform is visible through a hole in the temporary plywood wall.) In either case, it would be of much benefit to passengers for something to open ASAP since it's a long walk around.
I recently made my first trip around the City Hall loop. Being my first attempt, I was surprised to have absolutely no problems staying on the train. I was on a R142 in the second car looking out the right side window. However, I didn't see much except for the stairway. There were no lights on in the station. My question is, are the lights always off in the loop? If so, I'm assuming the only way to get a good look at the station is to get on the first car of a Redbird?
To the contrary, I've never seen the station dark. Perhaps the lights were turned off because of the high New York temp. and an effort to conserve electricity...
I once did a "Day One on the IRT" tour of City Hall in the dark (they couldn't get the lights on). Everyone brought flashlights. I thought it was great.
Note: Before anyone asks - the Day One tours have been discontinued.
Blame Rudy and the MTA lawyers.
I once did a "Day One on the IRT" tour of City Hall in the dark (they couldn't get the lights on). Everyone brought flashlights. I thought it was great.
I remember that one... most enjoyable... made it seem a bit spooky. Unfortunately I didn't have a flashlight myself but enough folks did so it didn't matter.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I went through the loop several times just to get three pictures of it (two from R142A, one from redbirds). It goes by so fast.
I know this was posted time and time again, but why not run the 2 Q's to 21 St and relay them there...of course the reason is because of 57/6th ave, but why not just close it for a few months until V service is operational?? The walk will not kill anybody (it certainly won't kill the people at Chinatown)...they are running only 6 Shuttle trains too...this will really only serve R. Island and 21 St residents...they can get more service if the Q's ran there, not the S.
Then they do not need the extra cars on the Shuttle...also, I'm sure that the Q's will get backed up, as well as the W's because the Q's run so much more frequently as compared to the W which is only running ~20 trains...
SeaBeach53
And Yes, Sea Beach Fred, the Manny Bridge misses it's old friend Sea Beach.
Seems to me like the TA is actually trying to avoid the Bway-63rd St connection. It hasn't been touched since the mid-90s construction of the north side of the bridge.
It's used whenever the R runs through 63rd, per GO.
It was used a month ago when 63rd was served by a shuttle to 34th. Even some F's used it briefly.
It also may be in use tomorrow. The GO listed on the TA's website says that shuttle trains are running between Queensbridge and Manhattan but it doesn't specify where in Manhattan.
The Queensbridge "S" looks to me like the "V" with training wheels. When the 63rd opens in November(?) the "V" will replace it. OTOH, if they run the Broadway "Q" out there, people might like it and the TA has another fight on its hands.
The V replaces the F on 53rd Street. The F replaces the Shuttle.
The V replaces the F on 53rd Street. The F replaces the Shuttle.
Aha. Got it. But my point is that if they provide a regular service from the 63rd Street all the way down Broadway and people get used to it the TA could have a battle when they shift that service to 6 Ave in November.
Running two Qs means that they have to provide enough trains for two Q services to Queensbridge. The car shortage would make such a service dangerous to pull off (some days there may not be enough trainsets to provide service). They could get those sets by cutting the B to 8 60' car trains, but noooo, everyone here keeps shooting me down on that one.
Also, if you've ever ridden a non-rush hour direction Q, you've seen why trains every 3 minutes is overkill.
Maybe try running some "Q"s to 179th Street occasionally.
BMTJeff
Railfan Report: Marion-Caledonia-Galion-Crestline, Ohio
Well today I thought I would go do some real railfanning on some of the former PRR lines. Without a current drivers' licence, I had to do this on the good ole' bicycle. At present I am staying at Marion, so I got dropped off at the intersection between U.S. 23 and Ohio Rt. 309. Rt. 309 deserves special mention because for almost six miles, it runs parallel to the Conrail Marion Branch (whatever the official name for that is!) I think this is a former NKP line which served Marion from Galion. Today, CSX controls the tracks. Rt.309 runs maybe 300-400 ft away from the tracks making it a great place to pace the train, although this may be quite difficult on the bicycle. I was kinda glad that no trains came through while I was cycling, since there would have been absolutely no time to drop the bike and catch a picture.
The first stop is Caledonia, a town of around 700 population alongside Rt. 309. There are three ungated grade crossings, at the eastern end of town there are two steel structures alongside each other by the water tower. The former westbound track had been torn out (although the structure remains intact). The former eastbound track is now the bidirectional main track. I got here at around 13.40 and caught an eastbound Autorack train -- motive power was two CSX widecabs.
Beyond Caledonia, a friend of mine picked me up in a SUV because she insisted that "it was too dangerous to cycle on 309." In retrospect, I agree that there are more trucks on Rt. 309 than it is desirable to cycle for long distances, but it isn't as impossible as the U.S. 30, for example. However, I was glad that I was picked up, since between Caledonia and Galion the Rt.309 does not follow railroad alignment (and as a result is also unnecessarily hilly).
We arrived at Galion at around 15.00, when I was horrified to find out that a portion of the main track indicated on my map had been torn out. I don't know how out of date this map data is (it came from http://maps.excite.com/ ) but the fact that it mentions B&O and N&W as "railroads" indicate that it may be quite out of date, although it is post-Conrail therefore post-1976. The ex-Erie Lackawanna (??) mainline ran just south of Ohio Rt. 309 between Galion and Mansfield, but between Galion and the Rt.309/Rt.61 intersection, no trace of it remains. I would be interested in further details about this line if anyone knows anything about it. This line used to cross the Galion-Edison-Delaware Conrail line at a diamond in Galion. It looks like they had removed the former chord line in Galion, realigned the Crestline-Marion line through the diamond, built a new connexion for the Galion-Delaware line, and sold most of the land for redevelopment. Today, all the tracks that passed through Galion appears to be CSX controlled; most of it was ex-Conrail stuff.
It must be mentioned at this point that Galion, despite Conrail's tearing up tracks, still has a real nifty station. This station is on the right hand side at an oblique angle if you approach it from Rt.309 westbound. You can't miss it. It's called the Washington Street Station. It's a great photo location if you are prepared to stand in town for three hours (I was not). Unfortunately, these days the Crestline-Galion-Marion line sees rather sparse traffic. If someone had a pic of that during Conrail days, it would be interesting to contrast that with a present day CSX pic -- the scenery remains as archrivals squabble over track ownerships! Those of you who see Conrail as the logical PRR successor and CSX as the logical B&O successor would know what I mean. For me anyway, C&O and NYC tends to fade into obscurity a little.
At the Rt.309/Rt.61 intersection, we veered north for Crestline. Although Crestline was a big PRR town in its days, today it has a population of only 5000. The roundhouse, the big yard, etc, are all gone. There was, however, a PRR signal gantry to be seen in the modest yard. The town, however, isn't too railfan friendly: they built an overpass on Ohio Rt.61; the way the roads are set up made it almost impossible to chase the train through town, and there are large distances between grade crossings. The worst part is, when you hear a train whistle, you are not sure if it is on the Conrail Chicago line (E/W direction) or Shelby-Crestline-Galion (NE/SW direction). Unbelievable as it may seem, the two busy lines cross at grade in Crestline. I guess PRR never built their stuff to the Northeastern standards out here in the Midwest.
When the first train came through at around 17.30, I was at the west end of the town checking out the yard. As my luck would have it, it was an eastbound. I raced to the first grade crossing only to see the motive power pass as I cycled frantically towards the crossing -- three NS widecabs, including one in primer, pulling a long train of general merchandise. It was checked at the junction, and was probably diverging if my non-railfan friend's report from the other end of the town was to be believed. The second train came at around 17.50, but it was stopped outside the interlocking beyond the first grade crossing east of Crestline on the Chicago Line. I raced towards the train to meet it (on parallel roads), only to find that it started to move just as I got to the grade crossing just outside the City Limits. Just my lucky day!
At this point I got bored and stopped railfanning, and did non-railfan things like go round antique shops etc., which, logically, was when things got better. We heard two trains blast through town, saw neither, but just as I was at the Crestline First United Methodist Church getting an ice cream, I heard this blast of horn. I ran for it down to that parking lot by N.Thomas St., and got a CSX unit coal train. Power was two CSX AC widecabs. I'll have the numbers once I get my film developed.
We were about to leave town when, as we took the U.S. 30 over the grade crossing, I spotted a set of headlights. It happened to be a set of two SD-40's doing lite engine towards the yard. You could tell that the first engine was ex-Conrail (drab horn) and the second engine was ex-Chessie (nice A-minor 10th chord). Despite heading back on Rt.309, this was to be the last movement I saw today. Nonetheless this was a good day out, and I'm totally knackerred (it's 2.12am local time and I have to be up at 7am tomorrow). Arrrrgh!!!!
Bed for me -- I'll keep you guys updated with my genuine American(tm) railfanning adventure as I explore the CSX territory around Marion.
P.S. Don't let me forget to mention, this week is Crestline's 150th anniversary -- Sunday 2 July through to Saturday 9 July. The town is having a festival kinda thing, so you guys so try to get there someday. Even after hours there are lots of non-railfan stuff going on, like pony rides, concerts in churches, and free fude. It's worth a trip with wife/husband and kids -- while the railfan in the family railfans, the other guys can amuse themselves with the town's festivities. Have fun!
Lexcie
Great write-up. I'm looking for a NYC Transit connection. Oh yes 4 foot 8.5 inches is the common factor.
CLICK HERE for a humorous animation about the city everyone loves to hate...Subway content too!
Peace,
ANDEE
I laughed so much my staff had to come over and see ... very enjoyable, thanks for sharing.
Mr t__:^)
Glad you enjoyed it, if you check out their main menu there is alot of other good stuff too
Peace,
ANDEE
4-5-6-N-R-1-9?!
I'm still trying to figure out where that station is. 8-)
Peace,
ANDEE
It must be, it must be....
uhh...
South Ferry, after they refurbed the inner loop, opened it to short-turn 4's and 5's and extended the 6, and built a free transfer to the Whitehall Street station!
I was thinking something along those lines -- but in Midtown?!
Incidentally, the south exits at the two Rectors (1/9 and N/R) are directly across the street from each other. Why not connect them? It wouldn't serve a great demand, but I'm sure it would get some use, and it looks like knocking down two walls and rearranging fare control would do the trick. (Or does the N/R station not have a mezzanine? The 1/9 station has separate mezzanines for the uptown and downtown sides, for no reason I can fathom -- yielding three station entrances on the same small traffic island.)
The 1/9 station doesn't really have any mezzanines at all from what I can tell, just turnstiles stuck inside stairwells. The N/R station also doesn't have mezzanines, it has booths and turnstiles on each platform accessed via separate entrances.
I'd vote for something connecting Whitehall, South Ferry, and Bowling Green stations.
I'd vote for something connecting Whitehall, South Ferry, and Bowling Green stations.
The South Ferry-Bowling Green link used to be called the Bowling Green Shuttle.
I only used the southbound exit at the far south end of the platform (twice) at Rector 1/9, but there's a mini-mezzanine there. Fare control is a HET on the platform, but that could be moved easily enough. The northbound platform is at the same level, so I assume it has a similar configuration.
As I said, I didn't know about Rector N/R. Is there an underpass, by any chance?
I agree that Whitehall - South Ferry - Bowling Green would be more useful. I only suggested the Rectors because connecting them would be dirt cheap and at least somewhat useful. (The N/R doesn't connect to the 1/2/3/9 until way up at 42nd. Rector isn't the best transfer point, since it's only to the local, but it's something. N/R riders who want the express can get it in Brooklyn, at Atlantic or Court.)
As I said, I didn't know about Rector N/R. Is there an underpass, by any chance?
I don't know if there used to be one, but there isn't one in use right now.
I think someone on SubTalk once discussed a Rector-Rector-Wall-Broad-Wall station complex. =)
That would be pretty neat.
I once suggested connecting Park Place (2/3) to City Hall (N/R) -- they, too, are across the street. (The connection might require eliminating part or all of the CH lower level.) While we're at it, CH could be connected under the park to Brooklyn Bridge (4/5/6). That walk from the E to the J/M/Z would be pretty long.
Or perhaps the WTC stations could be connected to each other and to the Fulton Street complex a block away. Yes, the 2/3 and A/C would stop twice in the same station complex.
Or do both! The 4/5 and J/M/Z would be added to the list of lines that serve the same station twice.
Well, if they built a moving walkway between Times Square and Grand Central and declared it one station complex, then I suppose that would count (except it also has the 2-3 A-C-E 7 and soon to be Q).
Very funny.
Priceless! :)
So True, so true.
Absolutely hilarious!!!
Thanks, I thought it most humorous myself
Peace,
ANDEE
Ugh, all these great reviews of this cartoon makes me wish I hadn't screwed up my flash installation. I'll just have to take your words for it...
Very funny. And very true, too!
--Mark
ARTICLE about Metro Card jam scam...
Peace,
ANDEE
As many of you know QSC got out of the retail MC business last Friday.
I guess 2/3 of our customer base thought MVM & Token Booths gave them better service ... personally it was a big pain in the ass & a money looser for us, but the City looses another way to obtain SERVICE.
Disclaimer: Am speaking for myself & not my employeer.
Mr t__:^)
Article says that after the bill return is jammed the machines are useless...but credit cards still work, right?
And coins, presumably, too.
Easily fixed, but at a cost. The design of the existing one (if it rejects through a separate slot - I've never seen a NYC MVM) can be fixed, but at a cost. Bill rejectors (the mechanism where the bill goes in) are available in both separate return slot and "reverser" styles. Looks like (at great expense of course) this could be readily defeated by replacing the bill rejectors with one that pushes the bill back out the same slot it gezinta like so many others. If the input slot is jammed, bill can't go in.
Scientifically speaking, Fudd's theorem states, "if you push something hard enough, it will fall over." Teslicle's devium to Fudd's theorem, "it goes IN, it MUST come out" needs application here.
MVM's reject through a separate slot just beneath the input slot. The MVM's are very forgiving of creased or faded bills that other machines often reject. Also, the MVM's suck in those bills with a sense of urgency. The MTA must be earning interest right from the time the bills enter the machine!
Noticed that the article says MVM's are available in 452 of 468 stations. Anyone know off-hand which 16 stations are MVM-free and why?
CG
One of the MVM-free ones is (surprise surprise) 34st Penn Station on the A/C/E. The rehab goes much faster if they don't have to shuffle both token booths and machines around.
I suspect Broad Channel also doesn't have one. I mean, where would they put it?
Could MVMs go in Penn Station proper, near but not inside the subway stations?
What's the fare control situation at Broad Channel?
Could MVMs go in Penn Station proper, near but not inside the subway stations?
There are several of them at the 1/2/3/9 entrances. I suspect that they will come to the A/C/E once the rehab is done.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
There are already some MVMs--the main booth by the main entrance to Penn on the lower level and both local plats at the 35 street entrance.
What about those stations on the Rockaway Park line? Are not those the least used on the system?
Actually 34th Street on the A/C/E has MVM's located at the south end of the station directly beneath 8th Avenue (not at the token booth on the C/E northbound platform, but the token booth for the A).
I did notice on the MTA website that Avenue H on the Brighton appears to be MVM-free, as does Broad Channel. So that's two.
CG
I did notice on the MTA website that Avenue H on the Brighton appears to be MVM-free, as does Broad Channel. So that's two.
Avenue H has MVMs. I went there once to buy a fun pass. I didn't bother to check whether the station had them or not.
That is why we are needed. We can contact police if we see someone jamming the MVM and of course we can take your bills to sell you a MetroCard. We can take a $20.00 and sell a $3.00 card.
We can take a $50 with a $30 minimum purchase and a $100 with a $63 minimum purchase.
Support your friendly neighborhood Station Agent. Save the Booths!
Just the other day at Brooklyn Bridge on the Lex, we had a sickc ustomer on the platform. We were able to contact police and EMS and the customer was removed to the hospital. The same day, same station we also had a fire alarm going off and a homeless person ejected twice( within 5 minutes the customer was ejected twice!) We also had another homless outstretch removed from the downtown platform.
All this within 30 minutes. We dont know the outcome from the hospitl but they were taken. What would happen if we are not there
Now, I'd love to see an MVM do all that.
Right! Tell the politicans you want your friendly station agents in the booths!
I do support my friendly station agent. On the other hand, I’m not so in favor of saving the booths. I would prefer that the metrocard (or single use card) selling be automated as much as possible, so that SAs can be deployed outside of the booths helping customers, and alerting police, dealing with sick passengers, etc, etc.
I don’t see the two directions as incompatible. As for giving change for a $100 on the subway (with a minimum payment of $63!), get real!
John
As for giving change for a $100 on the subway (with a minimum payment of $63!), get real!
Are you saying that the minimum is too high or that people shouldn't be able to exchange their legal tender? Those fair weather MVM's only give you like $6 in change and even then it's only in those transit tokens. Yes the token agents should be able to leave the booths and they should also be able to sell tokens. If even despite the current low crime levels some alarmists see this as a safety issue the agents should be issued firearms or tazers.
Regarding the minimum-- it was only when the unlimited cards came out that we were even allowed to accept $50 and $100 for any purchase.
The MVMs give out SBAs (Susan B Anthony) or Golden Dollar coins as part of their change.
I have had customers come up to my window and ask for one token- they attempted to pay with a $100.00 bill. I told them it was too big and then they tried to buy two tokens. I then told them the minimum purchase for a $100 is $63. They then tried a $50-- I finally told them-- use a $20 or smaller.(Still tried to buy one token). They then came up with the exact change.
I am not opposed to leaving the booth in safe areas but some stations, even now do not get lunch overnight due to safety concerns for the Night lunch relief. I could see the S/A outside one of those booths--probably mugged the first night. Some other stations while they do get lunch we must be careful and usually a police officer is there around lunch time for the S/A.
As far as weapons, I dont see NYCT spending money to get us all pistol permits. I imagine thy would probably set up all sorts of rules so any S/A using the weapon would probably be suspended(without pay) pending charges which would probably be ruled in favor of the suspect and then the S/A has no job.
I am not opposed to leaving the booth in safe areas but some stations, even now do not get lunch overnight due to safety concerns for the Night lunch relief. I could see the S/A outside one of those booths--probably mugged the first night. Some other stations while they do get lunch we must be careful and usually a police officer is there around lunch time for the S/A.
Booths won't be needed if the station agents work in a customer-service role and no longer handle money. Now, if what you're saying is that some stations are so dangerous that it's unsafe for night relief personnel even when money is not involved, in other words just in walking to the booth, well, I'd say those stations aren't safe for anyone and should be shut at night.
Sation agents are not needed. As for saftey concerns. Install phones that connect people directly to 911. Many of the stations scheduled to loose a part time station agent such as the secondary entrence to sheepshead bay on the brighton. The entrence is left unattened for 90% of the day anyway. What is a fe more hourd. The MVM are faster and more convient than walking up to the token boothe anyway. IT takes me less than 30 secounds to order and pay for my mothly unlimited ride card credit card aproval and all
And if you collapse on the floor how will you call 9-1-1?
We are building a broad base of community support with groups suchj as the Straphangers Campaign, tri-State Transportation Campaign(TSTC) among others. Several mayoral and council candidates also support us. A public hearing is to beheld next week in city council chambers.
The Subway-buff seems to be going in a "new direction" these days, or am I just confused ?
BTW, this is NOT a negitive comment.
Mr t__:^)
The issue is not my job (and yes, I like my job). The issue is customer servce-a MVM cannot give you a $3 card from a$20. The MVM can not tell you there us no train here due to a G.O.
The MVM cannot issue block tickets if there is a service disruption.
The MVM cannot look at the customer and based on their appearance (ie a senior citizen or person witrh a disability) and give them a transfer to another line that they can handle (no stairs, no long steep ramps, etc.)
Yes- I am a shop steward but our customers come first.
>>> The issue is customer servce-a MVM cannot give you a $3 card from a$20. The MVM can not tell you there us no train here due to a G.O. The MVM cannot issue block tickets if there is a service disruption.
The MVM cannot look at the customer and based on their appearance (ie a senior citizen or person witrh a disability) and give them a transfer to another line that they can handle (no stairs, no long steep ramps, etc.) <<<
Most of the things that you mention (except making change) could be done by a station agent no longer tied to a token booth. The public took it well when buses went to exact change instead of having the driver make change (or having a separate conductor). The public will adapt to the elimination of token booths.
Tom
With due respect you are missing the concept of ***choice***
ATM use is optional, Self-Serve gas is optional,e-filing your taxes is optional, self-bagging of groceries is optional.Not everyone to this date has a bank account--look at all the check cashing places.
By saying close the booths your are forcing riders to use the MVMs and MetroCard whether they want to or not. Yesterday pm and early this am I helped several people who could nto enter due to the HEET not letting them in and they moved to another HEET which displayed Just Used. At another station with one HEET again the same problem. I cleaned the HEETs at both stations and still problems.
Would you want to wait for a roaming S/A to visit the station to help you-? remember if all there is are HEETs then you cant jump!
I realize you are telling riders that it is tough luck. What a way to impress tourists--tell them they have no choice!
Sorry,Pal- I disagree--The current system lets a customer *choose* how they want to pay their fare.
We are building a broad coalition of community boards, politicians and advocacy groups. We are even having customers sign a petition to Governor Pataki.
In fact, the city councuil has scheduled a public hearing on 7/11/2001 at 10am at City Hall COuncil Chambers.
ATM use is optional
However teller hours are limited, some branches have almost eliminated tellers and many banks charge money for teller transactions involving low-end accounts. Maybe people who use the token booth for transactions should not get the 10% bonus.
Self-Serve gas is optional
Not every gas station has full serve, except in New Jersey. Nearly all dual gas stations charge more for full serve.
e-filing your taxes is optional
I'm sure it won't be for long.
self-bagging of groceries is optional.
That's only because there's already a person working there. As self-checkouts become more common that will not be the case. Nevertheless, supermarket checkout people (and gas station attendants) are low-paid. Station agents are not.
Not everyone to this date has a bank account--look at all the check cashing places.
People who use check cashing places are incredibly stupid (and I'm not afraid to say that). I'm surprised that they're even potty trained.
Would you want to wait for a roaming S/A to visit the station to help you-? remember if all there is are HEETs then you cant jump!
Courtesy phones solve the problem. The person would never even need to show up. Letting a person through can be done right there, or halfway around the world.
I realize you are telling riders that it is tough luck. What a way to impress tourists--tell them they have no choice!
They already have no choice in Washington, and that has always been the case, yet tourists still like the DC Metro.
We are building a broad coalition of community boards, politicians and advocacy groups. We are even having customers sign a petition to Governor Pataki.
Is there a counter-petition I can sign?
Not everyone to this date has a bank account--look at all the check cashing places.
People who use check cashing places are incredibly stupid (and I'm not afraid to say that). I'm surprised that they're even potty trained.
Maybe some of them aren't ...
Would you want to wait for a roaming S/A to visit the station to help you-? remember if all there is are HEETs then you cant jump!
Courtesy phones solve the problem. The person would never even need to show up. Letting a person through can be done right there, or halfway around the world.
At much lower cost, I might add. And probably faster.
We are building a broad coalition of community boards, politicians and advocacy groups. We are even having customers sign a petition to Governor Pataki.
Is there a counter-petition I can sign?
I'd sign too!
> People who use check cashing places are incredibly stupid
Some people don't trust banks, due to harsh experience.
And banks won't open accounts for some people, even if they have the minimum balance.
Unless you are okay with sending your paycheck through the mail to a non-local branch, you're kind of out of choices.
Besides; if your {INSERT_ESSENTIAL_SERVICE_HERE} is about to be cut off due to an unpaid $50 bill, or if your credit card is about to charge you a $35 late fee, it's much better to have $90 today than $100 in a week.
Besides; if your {INSERT_ESSENTIAL_SERVICE_HERE} is about to be cut off due to an unpaid $50 bill, or if your credit card is about to charge you a $35 late fee, it's much better to have $90 today than $100 in a week.
That depends on how essential that essential service is. (Electric service probably is. Cable TV definitely is not.)
>>> People who use check cashing places are incredibly stupid <<<
But not as stupid as those that make such a statement. Some people are not able to obtain checking accounts, and some people cannot use them because of outstanding judgments, or tax obligations.
Tom
Nobody has to open a checking account. Banks are required to offer savings accounts with no minimum. They cost less than check cashing places.
>>> Banks are required to offer savings accounts with no minimum <<<
That does not solve the judgment problem, and it is doubtful that the banks will cash checks for free for a higher amount than the depositor has on account. At the least they will require it to be deposited for long enough for the check to clear.
Tom
That does not solve the judgment problem
What judgement problem?
and it is doubtful that the banks will cash checks for free for a higher amount than the depositor has on account.
Cash doesn't let you do that either, how is a bank account then a disadvantage?
>>> What judgement problem? <<<
People who have outstanding judgments are subject to having their bank accounts seized. One day the money is there, the next day it is all gone.
>>> Cash doesn't let you do that either, how is a bank account then a disadvantage? <<<
????? You seem to lose the thought thread rather quickly. I was pointing out why some people use check cashing services rather than have checking accounts. You pointed out that banks are required to allow anyone to have a savings account. I pointed out that a low balance savings account would probably not help for cashing checks. I do not understand your reply above.
Tom
People who have outstanding judgments are subject to having their bank accounts seized. One day the money is there, the next day it is all gone.
Maybe they can use check cashing services, but these are exceptional circumstances. They shouldn't be catered to every step of the way.
????? You seem to lose the thought thread rather quickly. I was pointing out why some people use check cashing services rather than have checking accounts. You pointed out that banks are required to allow anyone to have a savings account. I pointed out that a low balance savings account would probably not help for cashing checks. I do not understand your reply above.
One can deposit checks into an account with any balance. I don't understand your response.
????? You seem to lose the thought thread rather quickly. I was pointing out why some people use check cashing services rather than have checking accounts. You pointed out that banks are required to allow anyone to have a savings account. I pointed out that a low balance savings account would probably not help for cashing checks. I do not understand your reply above.
One can deposit checks into an account with any balance. I don't understand your response.
You can deposit any size check into a low-balance account, but you won't be able to get cash for it.
You can deposit any size check into a low-balance account, but you won't be able to get cash for it.
Once it clears you can withdraw it.
You can deposit any size check into a low-balance account, but you won't be able to get cash for it.
Once it clears you can withdraw it.
True, but that can take quite a while, up to several days depending on the nature of the check.
The best thing that could come out of all of this is for the Station Agents to understand that their jobs depend on "service" being their middle names. Present company understands that, but is this the exception or the norm ?
Mr t__:^)
Occasionally folks still try to stuff a dollar in the farebox.
Mr t__:^)
90% of the time Sheepshead Bay (South Entrance) doesn't have anyone there. I would agree with that BUT 70% of that 90% the entrance is closed. It closes over night, they even lock up the HEET's and MVM's.
Now what is the point of that?
System Safety and customer Safety. If the HEETs were to remain open 24/7, then vandalism and vagrants would be common--more than now.
I have in my posession some info from Mark Green who stated that NYCT says HEETs would not solve the problem. In fact, NYCT refused to install HEETs at one part-time location (A transfer station)due to vandalism and customer safety concerns.)
ARTICLE about the trendy L train???
Peace,
ANDEE
NY subways have always entertained me while they were transporting me.
"back in the day" (teehee) when it was simply the 14th Crosstown(an alternate way to/from my apt in the alphabet) it certainly was a different train. Entertainging riders not particularly, but the equipment--ancient BMT cars not seen anywhere else in Manhattan.
Why do the links to the articles in the Daily News and Newsday (and other papers) take me directly to the articles, but the links to the articles in the New York Times take me to a sign-in/register page? Isn't it possible to go directly to the Times article without requiring a sign-in or registration?
It is if you already have signed in at some point in the past and stored a "cookie" for their site. The other newspapers' web sites do not require a login/password to read the stories at all. The Times does but it's free to register.
-Dave
yeah, the TIMES can be a pain in the ass that way
Peace,
ANDEE
Especially when your cookies have been tossed :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Okay, NOW I'VE SEEN IT ALL!
I guess if you get off at Sutter Avenue, instead of chic, you're chit?
Well I did buy my L line t-shirt the other day, but it wasn't for that reason, that's for sure.
That tears it. Now that wealthy yuppies AND the NY TImes have gotten in on this, I'm NEVER taking the L again. Aah, sweet Canarsie, you will be missed.
"The eyes and ears of the system". We hear this saying parroted constantly, here and elsewhere, when it comes to token booth clerks. However when I ride the system daily between 0300 and 0500 I always see many sleeping clerks. How can they be "the eyes and ears of the system" while asleep?
What is official TA policy on this?
Peace,
ANDEE
Thoughts on this please
Even station agents who stay are of fairly limited use as "eyes and ears" of the system, being locked away in booths. If plans ever come to pass and station agents spend more time outside the booths in a customer-service role, with fare sales handled by MVM's, then they might be more useful in the relevant context. But not now.
Sleeping Station Agents is against the rules, no ifs and no exzceptions and they should be reported. If supervision catches them sleeping they are in big trouble.
>>>...no exzceptions and they should be reported. <<<
Well I won't report them, the TA has plenty of internal rats as it is, why do you think I didn't mention any locations. Not my style. As they say. But, I do see it alot.
Peace,
ANDEE
I wouldnt report them either but supervision will catch up with the sleepyhead or a customer will complain.
I also would rather have the station agents outside the booths. There is only so much to see in their range of vision, and they can't help out if there is a problem (ie. sick passenger, someone holding doors, etc.) down on the platform. Nor can they notice a loiterer, or an act of vandalism, away from them. Can't see much, hear much, do much in there.
If, in larger stations, the ending of the need to sell tokens means fewer station personnel are required, and therefore money can be saved, I'm all for it. Productivity goes up everywhere in the economy, and that's how it happens. If it didn't we'd be spending 50 percent of our income for food, as we did 100 years ago. TWU members gain the benefits of other's rising productivity in what they buy -- it becomes cheaper or better relative to what they earn. They have an obligation to do likewise.
One thing I do NOT agree with is un-manned stations. As discussed in other threads, I'd rather eliminate conductors (there'd still be one person on a train). Or close stations at night, and operate special night buses connecting to a smaller subway system. Unmanned stations are a bad idea.
ARTICLEabout Main Street/Flushing escalator woes.
Peace,
ANDEE
So what else is new?
TA should send the bill for this work to the incompetent who designed the machinery spaces w/o a floor drain.
On my daily B train into manhattan this morning, i was surprised to see that the mini-maps on the walls of the subway cars were updated for July 22!
The train I was on, (brooklyn B), of course did not exist, and all the other changes were there.
Needless to say i was mesmerized and missed my stop because i was looking over the map...
Alan Scott
PS - they really screwed oer chinatown big time.....absolutely no extended M service at all to brooklyn to make up for the missing B/D/Q. I would've thought that would have been easy ot implement. Didn't they have the M running to B'klyn at times other than rush hour in the past?
PPS - so when I got off the train I asked the token booth person if she had any of the new maps for the July 22 changes. She said all she had was the M. Bridge brochures. So the new maps are out - somewhat.
This is not new. It means that the maps are printed (at least for the subway cars) and someone is getting a jump on July 22 by chaning them now.
Talk about confusing the riders.
There are also new mini-maps in the brochures that they hand out about the change.
Saw the updated maps on the R40 Q I rode on, but when I went to the Transit Store at Grand Central they only had March ones.
I'm going straight to 370 Jay st tomorrow to get one. If they don't have it, the customer version doesn't exist yet.
Wait, customer service isn't open on holidays, is it. Damn, I'll have to settle for trying token booths and the Transit Museum gift shop.
Got a flyer yesterday from Shoreline Trolley. There is to be a fan trip starting 10:30 AM at Chambers St ( J line ). They will cover the Nassau street lines (including soon to be abandoned trackage), go to Metropolitan Avenue and then to the 38th dock where the train will be coupled to 2 diesel engines to go through the Bush Terminal area.
Its $35 for adults in advance to benefit March of Dimes. Sounds like fun and worth getting up early on a Sunday morning for.
Please e-mail me at Skip8096@Yahoo.com with information on registration, etc.
See my posting on 6/15.
http://subtalk.nycsubway.org/cgi-bin/subtalk.cgi?read=228777
That's exactly what my flyer says. Thanks for the link. To everyone else, look back to post 228777 for more details.
It shall be operating on Sunday leaving boston North station at 8:00 AM.
Roger Arcara was the Boswell of the New York, Westchester & Back (now surviving as the Dyre Ave. Line and New England Thruway) and I just noticed his book on eBay. I have this item and enjoy it very much.
IMO, for all the inflation of prices on eBay, books are a better buy than scarcer collectibles. Some of the prices on maps and plans realy blow my mind. Recently two nice but not amazing blueprint maps, one for a part of the original trackage near Brighton Beach and another for some ENY trackage went for between $120 and $140 each.
I was recently looking at one of those 1948 BofT subway maps. That's an outstanding map, in my semi-professional opinion and, if it were a coin, would be considered a "key date" or must-have item for anyone who hopes for anything like a complete subway map collection. still, I was amazed to see one for go for more than $100! Yet, just a week or so ago, one sold for less than $24.
Sometimes patience pays.
Paul,
People who bid on ebay are crazy (I should know, I am one of them).
But the prices fluctuate on the same item. It all depends on when they are offered and how badly someone wants them.
Example: 1972 Subway map - both versions - went as high as $76.00 once. The next time I saw them offered they went for less than $20.00.
I have some bids out on a couple of items now (no, I will not tell anyone my ebay name). If I am outbid I might go higher and then again I might not. I am starting to control my urges and concentrating on more unique subway items offered since I already have a lot of the more common ones.
Allan
I thought that book would go much higher. I planned to list the same book and another about the same RR in the near future. Prices on E-bay have not yet slowed with the economy. One book I was interested in ("Diesels of the Sunrise Trail") was over $50 whin I lost interest.
The MTA has issued a special edition of The Map for the U.S. Tennis Open.
The "cover" has - the map in gold letters with the words "official New York City tennis subway in blue letters over and around it.
It has the subway map on both sides. On one side is the March 2001 version. The other side has a slightly smaller version with "balloons" highlighting various places in the 5 boros where tennis facilties exist (schools, parks, clubs).
---------------------------------------------------------------------
I doubt if these will be generally available except at certain token booths near the tennis stadium and other related places.
I was able to get my hands on 15 copies (my employer is one of the big Corporate sponsers). If anyone would like one of the copies that I was able to get (and I know you do), this is how we will do it:
1) Send me an E-mail requesting one (and only one per person)
2) I will respond with my name and mailing address.
3) Send me by regular mail - a Stamped Self-Addressed envelope.
The postage is 56 cents (the P.O. raised the 2nd ounce rate by a penny last week). I recommend a legal size #10 envelope since the map will fit better.
4) I will then send one out to you (and drop you an E-mail when it is sent).
The requests will be handled based on which ones I receive first - determined by the date and time on the E-mail. If I get more than 15 requests I will hold them in case I can get more copies.
Allan
Did Brooklyn trolleys ever use grand unions in their track work and if so where were they ? does anyone know ? thanks. Karl
Brooklyn was famous for being a massive trolley system with not a single grand union**.
Someone once told me which junction came closest, but it has completely gone from my brain. Sorry about that.
**In case anyone doesn't know, a grand union is a trolley junction where two two-track trolley lines cross and switches are provided left and right from every direction so a trolley entering the junction could take any route (except reverse). They were fabulously expensive to build and maintain, not to mention being something of an operational nuisance.
Could the "almost" grand union have been at the foot of the Williamsburg Bridge ? -- Don't know just a guess that perhaps will jog your memory...
My vague memory is that it was somewhere in the great triangle formed by Fulton Street, Broadway and the East River, where it seemed like you couldn't walk more than 30 paces in any direction without getting run over by a trolley.
However, the great bulk of the trolley system was gone before I even knew it was going, so a lot of the info about other parts of the system I never recalled seeing tended to go in one ear and out the other.
thanks for the info....any model grand unions in 'o' or ho?
Seems to me that there was an article in MR about these not too long ago. Within the past year fer sure.
Elias
...any model grand unions in 'o' or ho?
No commercial ones, but at least three members of the East Penn Traction Club have constructed them from scratch - two in O, one in HO. And there's a fellow in North Carolina who built one in N on a dare, just to prove it could be done. (Another modeler brought back N scale girder rail from Japan and presented it to him with the challenge; regrettably, I've never found an American source for N scale girder rail, and I've been told that the Japanese manufacturer who made that rail is no longer in business.) As far as I know it's still in his collection of "stuff"; I've tried to acquire it a couple of times over the years but with no success.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I thought Grand Union was a supermarket.
I wonder if the trolleys upstate used Wegmans.
No silly. Everyone knows the trolleys only use Tops.
As long as they don't use Schnucks. (That's the name of a St. Louis-based supermarket chain. Really!)
If you’re looking for bizarre supermarket chain names, you can’t do better/worse than Piggly Wiggly, which is in south-eastern states!
John
No need to go that far ... just look for Wawa in central and spouth Joisey.
--Mark
Gee-olly.
NYC needs bigger supermarkets... them places up in boston put this town to shame.
Wawa isn't wierd. It's based in Wawa, Pennsylvania and is an old estsblished diary that got into the convience store business about a dozen years ago. Their original plant (and most likely corporate HQ) is on old US 1 in Wawa Township.
Actually their headquarters are located in Springfield, PA (Delaware County) 3 Miles or so from Philly and about a half mile down Route 1 from the Franklin Mint. They're all through south jersey, Pennsy, and Dleaware. They've got some of best best coffee!!!!
And their stores are all over Maryland, too.
And the coffee/sub commericals are all over the tube.
They broke into the discount gasoline market about 2 years ago. I remember when you could get gas at a Wawa FULL SERVE for 75 cents a gallon. Aw man, those were the days.
They're still the cheapest for gas around here usually 5-10cents a gallon cheaper than everyone else.
When I first came down to the philly area for college in '88 I saw the name wawa and though "why don't they have Dell Shannon singing the jingle?"
LOL
When I was a youngster in New York we had Bohacks, Grand Union, Dilbert Brothers, and a number of other supermarket chains----all gone by the boards I reckon. At the multitude of candy stores that dotted the neighborhood, some served Breyers, Reids, Meadow Gold, Bordens, Hortons, and my favorite Sealtest. I guess they've gone my the boards for the most part as well. When we served spaghetti at our house, usually three times a week, we had a choice of Ronzoni, LaRosa, Paramount, Prince, and Julietta----most of those have gone by the boards. Things change and we have to accept it even it it bothers us. As far as the Sea Beach was concerned, well I'll leave it at that.
When I was a youngster in New York we had Bohacks, Grand Union, Dilbert Brothers, and a number of other supermarket chains----all gone by the boards I reckon.
Grand Union's still around.
At the multitude of candy stores that dotted the neighborhood, some served Breyers, Reids, Meadow Gold, Bordens, Hortons, and my favorite Sealtest. I guess they've gone my the boards for the most part as well.
Breyers and Sealtest are still with us.
When we served spaghetti at our house, usually three times a week, we had a choice of Ronzoni, LaRosa, Paramount, Prince, and Julietta----most of those have gone by the boards.
Ronzoni and Prince are still in business, although the big Ronzoni plant overlooking the LIRR line near Woodside was demolished a few years ago and replaced by a shopping plaza.
Breyers and Sealtest are still with us.
The Breyers name is still with us. Somebody else bought them out, closed the ice cream plant, laid everybody off, and put the name on their own ice cream. The closed plant could be seen for years from the subway-surface lines in southwest Philly.
Somebody else bought them out, closed the ice cream plant, laid everybody off, and put the name on their own ice cream.
For at least some of the flavors, most notably Vanilla Bean and Mint Chocolate Chip, it is the original Breyer's recipe. I miss the Chocolate Mint Chip that they produced, though (chocolate ice cream with mint chips in it)... Howard Johnson's was the only other brand that carried it, and of course they're gone too.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
You can still have a picture of part of the Breyer's Queens Blvd ice cream plant.
IIRC Bill Newkirk has a postcard of a #7 Flushing bound (in white livery - due to the graffiti scourge)taken between the Rawson and Lowery Street Stations. The picture is from an apartment house roof on 39th place, south side of QB. He captures the train and the NYC skyline in the background, but if you know the neighborhood you can pick out the old Breyer's plant and the Swingline Staple factory. I got the card at the Shoreline Trolley Museum gift shop.
Let's see... here it is! (If Branford sells it, I've got it... at least in the postcard department.)
Hopefully I can get back up there for Autumn in New York... National Capital (Wheaton, Maryland) has their big shindig on 21 October so there's no conflict. (I'm a member there as well, courtesy of my younger daughter, who presented me with membership as a Father's Day gift - an incentive to come visit her since she lives less than three miles away.)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Grand Union's still around.
But they're retreating. Here in Jersey they've sold out to Stop & Shop. The Grand Union chain overextended badly... many years ago the Colonial Stores in Virginia and North Carolina were purchased by Big Star, just as Grand Union had purchased Empire Markets. Then GU and BS merged (one bought the other, I just don't remember which), and along the way they picked up a few other small chains as well. Distribution channels got long, supplier problems (for store brand merchandise) got severe, and the house of cards fell down.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Here in Jersey they've sold out to Stop & Shop.
Actually, Stop & Shop is just one small piece of the huge Royal Ahold empire, based in the Netherlands. In addition to S&S, Ahold also owns not one but two Giant chains (but not the small, locally owned chain in the Binghamton area), Tops, and BI-LO. (They also owned Edwards and Finast but absorbed them into S&S and Tops.)
What I don't get is why Ahold hasn't expanded in the U.S. past the East Coast. I guess it's just a matter of time.
Incidentally, I thought the Tops name had expanded substantially when it replaced Finast in northeast Ohio, but I just discovered that there are also Tops supermarkets in Thailand, Malaysia, and Indonesia. I wonder if they'd accept my BonusCard there.
The local Shop Rite 'franchisee' around here is in BIG trouble-same problem...overextending themselves..PLUS incredible competition- In Middletown alone, they compete against at least FOUR other chains [Stop & Shop, a chain from PA called Redner's, Price Chopper from the Albany area*, and a chain from Boston called Hanneford's], and now Wal-Mart is building one of those Super Wal-Marts with a grocery in it....About the ONLY chains that haven't built in this area are the two biggies from upstate-Tops and Wegmans.....
*The Golub family......
See my other post. Tops has built in your area, only it's called Stop & Shop. You'll never find both Tops and S&S in the same area.
But what's taking Wegmans so long? They even have a store in Princeton.
Same deal or relationship between Waldbaums and A&P, both owned by the Atlantic and Pacific Tea Company. I think they own Food Emporium in Manhattan. They share the same "store brand" Americas Choice.
avid
Incidentally, the Hannaford supermarket people (who also run "Super Shop & Save") are based in Scarborough, ME and not Boston. As for "store brands," we have "Top Crest" at the Springfield, MA-based "Big Y". (Just for the hell of it, what ever happened to "Food Club" ?)
And Hannafords was bought a year or so ago by.....the Food Lion creeps from down south.......
"the Food Lion creeps from down south"
Why do you say food lion creeps? YOu know they were set up by the union in that ABC piece and won bigtime $$$ don't you?
"Why do you say food lion creeps?"
Ever seen one of those nature shows on lions? Or watched a cat about to pounce on a rat or squirrel? A cat -- or a big cat like a lion -- creeps up on their prey.
In other words, I don't think the poster was necessarily insulting Food Lion. I think he was making a joke about their name. The thread IS about funny supermarket names, after all.
...the Food Lion creeps from down south...
Actually, the Food Lion folks are the nicest ones in North Carolina - clean and cheap - unlike their main competition. (As a general rule, Winn Dixie's cheap but a bit shabby, Harris Teeter is clean but expensive, and Byrd's is not-so-cheap and very dirty - there are exceptions to all of them, of course.) Indeed, when we go home we buy quite a few items at the Food Lion nearest our house to bring back to Jersey with us; some, of course, are items we can't get in New Jersey, but others we buy simply because they're 30% cheaper in Food Lion than at any store in Jersey. The publicity problems Food Lion has encountered have been due to events staged for the media by union organizers, which in North Carolina has had the effect of eliminating what little support the union might have gotten.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
What's interesting about supermarkets is that there are no nationwide chains. I've never heard an explanation of why that is so.
I think Kroger, Safeway and Winn-Dixie are about the closest things to a nationwide chain, but they each fall far short. It is rather curious, to say the least.
-- David
Chicago, IL
Distribution channels are a major factor, I presume, as well as the regional nature of people's tastes. In a major metropolitan area there will be demand for almost anything, but can you imagine a sufficient demand for grits in Provo, Utah or for tofu in Louisburg, North Carolina? Because of these factors, beyond a certain point there's no economy of scale, and given the slim margin of profit in the grocery industry (they make their profit on flipping their inventory many times over in the course of a year) they're better off concentrating on dominating or being a major player in one region.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Safeway used to be the largest nationwide chain, but their efforts to fight off an attempted takeover by the wild-and-wacky Washington D.C.-based Haft family in the late 1980s forced a major stock buy-back and consolidation. Albertson's is bigger than Safeway now, while I believe Kroeger still leads in total numberof stores. Winn-Dixie also has retrenched slightly, and Wal-Mart could be the No. 3 supermarket chain now, based on the number of SuperCenters (usually 175,000 to 225,000 square feet) they've opened around the country in the past few years.
As far as I know "Shop and Save" is operated by Hannaford, Inc. out of Scarborough, ME. The have some supermarkets which are simply known as "Hannaford's." (e.g., US Route 5 in Brattleboro, VT.) They are Maine's #1 supermarket chain. Their biggest competitor would have to be "Shaw's" based in Massachusetts. My family used to shop at a "Super Shop & Save" on US Route 1 in Saco, back when we lived in Old Orchard Beach, which is one town over.
Top Crest and Food Club (which is still around) are generic generics. They show up at a variety of supermarkets around the country.
Yes, A&P owns Food Emporium. The only difference between the two is that prices are high at A&P and outrageous at FE. (My two nearest supermarkets are an FE and a Gristede's, which has even higher prices.)
Of course! Captive market. In inner city markets, shops are small because of high rents, buyers get less choices of size and variety.
Buyers have less storage space (in Apartments) in refrigerators or freezers. Most urban shoppers hand carry their purchases from stores to there homes. So highier prices, less choice, less compitition.
All and all less is more!
avid
Well,actually...the site where S&S opened was the site of a former locally owned store that went under,and its property was a VERY hot parcel with Wegman's and several others bidding on it besides S&S. My sis lives in Rochester, and Wegmans beats Tops any DAY AS far as quality,etc is concerned.
The Wegman's across the street from the Galleria Mall in Buffalo has a fantastic selection of food since it was built with about as much floor space as the new super-supermarkets in the southern and western states.
As far as other weird names, San Antonio-based HEB dominates the markets its in south and central Texas. The abbreviated name isn't that strange on the face of it, but since the founder of the store's name was Harold E. Butts, you can kind of see why they use his initials.
Ah, the good old Tops-Wegmans war. As a Cornellian ('97), I know it well.
They're both top-notch supermarkets, but, given the choice (and insufficient time or reason to go to both), I go to Tops. Way back in 1994 or thereabouts, the specialty foods manager at the Ithaca Tops expanded the kosher food offerings at my request. That's right, all it took was one request, and this in a city without much of a market for kosher food. I'm rarely brand loyal, but if I'm in an area with a Royal Ahold supermarket, that's who gets my money.
(The Ithaca Wegmans, OTOH, once forbade me from taking pictures in the store. They were afraid that I was going to bring them to Tops next door and reveal Wegmans' prices or something.)
It still amazes me that Chicago only has two main grocery store chains (Dominick's and Jewel-Osco) when much smaller towns have three or four chains to chose from.
When I was living in tiny Beaufort, South Carolina for a couple years, we had FoodMax, Winn-Dixie, BI-LO, Food Lion, Piggly Wiggly, A&P, as well as the military comissary on the Parris Island Marine Corps base. SIX chains in a town of less than 50,000 people!!
In Jacksonville Florida, Winn-Dixie (where I worked in high school -- probably the weirdest job I've ever had), Food Lion, Albertson's and Publix were the big players, not to mention two large Navy comissaries. Publix is a very nice chain with clean stores and good selection (and I understand they treat their employees unusually well), but to my knowledge they haven't expanded much outside of their Florida and south Georgia turf.
Here in Chicagoland, Dominick's (owned by Safeway) and Jewel-Osco (owned by Albertson's) almost completely dominate the market. I think they've managed to crush any sort of encroaching competition -- even from Midwestern giant Kroger -- and have even been accused of price-fixing on certain items. Out in the suburbs, there are a small handful of Eagle Food Stores, and curiously enough, even a couple of Piggly Wiggly stores up in Lake County to liven things up a bit. Don't ask me how Piggly Wiggly managed to have these couple of far-flung outposts, though. In the city and a few suburbs, there are also a handful of Treasure Island stores, but these stores deal mainly with upscale gourmet and imported foods, and I wouldn't consider Treasure Island to be in the same ballpark as Dominick's or Jewel-Osco.
Question: Are Chicago's Jewel-Osco and Boston's Star Market owned by the same company? When living in Boston, I remember seeing the "President's Choice" store brand in the Stah Mahket stores there, which is the same store brand Jewel-Osco carries. Dominick's used to have their own store brand before they got bought out, but now they mostly sell the Safeway brand.
And has anybody ever been in a Meijer store? Talk about an utterly frightening place. Meijer is a Michigan-based chain that invented the concept of "mega-store" long before Wal-Mart and K-Mart tried their hand at it. There's a Meijer store out in DuPage county, and the place is about the size of an airline hanger. It's basically like a large grocery store and the largest of Target stores rolled into one -- a category killer to the nth degree. They're so huge, in fact, that some local communities have blocked construction of additional Meijer stores in the Chicago area. I guess they're afraid Meijer would put all their mom-and-pop Wal-Mart stores out of business. I'll give Meijer credit for one thing, though: Their stores are famous for being incredibly clean. The store in DuPage was utterly spotless, to the point that you could almost eat off the floor.
-- David
Chicago, IL
"Question: Are Chicago's Jewel-Osco and Boston's Star Market owned by the same company?"
No, star market is owned by the same company that owns Shaw's another New England chain.
"When living in Boston, I remember seeing the "President's Choice" store brand in the Stah Mahket stores there"
President's Choice is a discount brad not a store brand. Star market used to have it's own store brand but it is being phased out soon the star market name will be as well.
President's Choice is a discount brad not a store brand.
Gotcha. The generally skanky appearance of both stores was also a factor in leading me to believe they were part of the same company. I stand corrected.
Star market used to have it's own store brand but it is being phased out soon the star market name will be as well.
What a shame... Star Market is such a perfect name to butcher with a fake Boston accent. :-)
-- David
Chicago, IL
President's Choice was originally the store brand for some Canadian chain. It was so well-liked (or so I've heard) that various American chains bought it and sold it as their high-end generic. (A&P, similarly, has America's Choice as its standard generic and Master Choice as its high-end generic.)
I don't think President's Choice was supposed to be offered in more than one store in an area, but when I first got to Champaign-Urbana (IL), it was available in both Chicago-based Jewel and St. Louis-based Schnucks. Shortly thereafter, both Jewels became plain Oscos and Schnucks dropped the line. I haven't seen it since.
Tops also used to carry PC but phased it out a few years ago. An Ahold-wide high-end generic, Sensational, appears to have taken its place.
Champaign has a Meijer. It's pretty scary, especially if you don't know where to find what you need. Once you think of it as two stores sharing a set of cash registers, it's not so bad -- go to the right if you want the supermarket, go to the left if you want the Target-like stuff. I've found that it has a decent selection of average goods but very little in the way of specialty items (I couldn't even find kasha there -- I was shown the buckwheat flour, I was shown the bulghur wheat, but the little brown and gold Wolff's boxes were nowhere to be found). Produce is usually good. Prices are low but not the lowest in town. Clean, absolutely.
Anybody been to an Aldi's or a Save-a-Lot? Interesting shopping experience.
There was an Aldi's in West Long Branch for a while... not sure if it is still there. I was in it once, just to see what it was all about... they only took cash and foodstamps, no debit, checks, or credit, and they charged you 25˘ to use a cart.
And it was FILTHY!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
The quarter is returned when you put the cart back in the cart line. The idea is to keep carts out of the parking lot and to avoid the need for the store to hire someone to bring the carts back. It works -- just about nobody is willing to forfeit 25 cents by leaving the cart sitting out.
The Champaign Aldi started taking debit cards around 1999. I don't know about checks. No credit cards -- Aldi's prices really are low and I don't think they'd be able to stay in business with credit card fees.
Filthiness is variable -- which isn't a good sign.
My biggest gripe, other than the limited (generic-only, for the most part) selection, is the inevitably long lines. I guess it doesn't help that most shoppers there seem to fill up their carts to capacity while I'd get to the front with a dozen eggs, a carton of milk, and six half-gallons of orange juice.
Albertson's also owns the Acme chain in New Jersey and Pennsylvania... they carry Osco brand lightbulbs, and probably a few other items as well. Albertson's has owned them for years but it's only been within the past couple of years that they've added the phrase "an Albertson's company" to the advertising flyers.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I noticed a Grand union in New hampshire turned into a P&C foods.
COUPONS DOUBLE COUPONS AS A POLICY.
On Long Island (Nassau and Sufolk counties) the major chains have a double coupon policy. The stores double those coupons of the Manufactors up to and sometimes including those worth a dollar.
Are there any other locations or areas with this policy?
avid
New Jersey - triple coupons on occasion. But there are limits - up to 50˘ is doubled by all of the major chains, but only some of the chains will rate a 55˘ coupon as $1 - A&P won't. I buy my staples at ShopRite, as well as some cheese, fruit, and meat; most of my produce and bread comes from A&P, though, as their quality is consistently good and they're more conveniently located (I can stop on my way home from work).
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Thanks for the blurb Pete. At least not all is lost. We lived in the Woodside Project Apartments the last year I lived in New York and we used to go to their discount store and get fusilli and margueritte shaped pasta for about ten cents less than you would pay for it at a grocery store. I know Breyers still is around, but I haven't seen any Sealtest when I come to New York. Good to know it is still around. I loved the eagle on Paramount macaroni products, but my folks went for LaRosa and Ronzoni and Paramount was a rare treat.
>>>Grand Union's still around. <<<
Nope, they folded about 2/3 months ago.
Peace,
ANDEE
And Stop & Shop [whatever the corporate name is...] picked up MOST of the pieces around here.....
Ronzoni was bouht out in the '80s by General Foods, I think. Some of the family stayed on to help managefor a while. I'm not sure if that is still the case. I think the same happened to Entenmann's Bakery. They were acquired and were use as the vehicle to go "national" with a "since 1898" on the logo.
As with the chain stores, the food industry is set up with parant companies.
Philip Morris owns Kraft, Miller Beer and addictive substances. They also control Jello, Minute Rice, Reynolds Wrap and who knows what! Their P.R. people push the Philip Morris name when they show donations of food and such to disaster victims. So tobacco aint so bad. Lipton and Nestles are big conglomerates as well. So to the Campbell product line.
avid
They also control Jello, Minute Rice, Reynolds Wrap and who knows what!
Not Reynolds wrap - that was a product of the Reynolds Metals Company, which was merged into Alcoa in May 2000.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I have in my hand a box of Cut-Rite wax paper, which used to be a Scott Paper product once upon a time. Now it says manufactured for Consumer Products Division Reynolds Metals Company. We also have a roll of Aluminum foil made by the same division. Is Alcoa hiding behind the Reynold's name?
Not sure... Alcoa has owned Reynolds since May 2000. I think that Scott Paper was purchased by Reynolds some years ago, though I could be wrong. Alcoa is one of the "good guys" so I doubt they're trying to hide.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Alcoa has owned Reynolds since May 2000. I think that Scott Paper was purchased by Reynolds some years ago, though I could be wrong. Alcoa is one of the "good guys" so I doubt they're trying to hide.
I believe Kimberly-Clark purchased Scott Paper (after Chainsaw Al Dunlap had decimated Scott's ranks).
At least Alcoa, after purchasing Reynolds, hasn't gotten rid of Pat and Betty.
I just go by the food flyers the KRAFT family of foods puts out.
this recent flyer had , Jello,minute rice, Kraft dairy and cheese products and Reynlods Wrap. Pehaps I've assumed to much. I'll re check my coupons.
avid
I'm a Piggly Wiggly "Pig's Favorite Customer" or "PFC." That's the name of their "shoppers club card." I got it when I was down in South Carolina two years ago. The lady at the store wanted to give me a temporary paper card, but I was like no way, give me the real thing! And she did!
What does this have to do with trains?
Absolutely nothing. But if you read the beginning of this thread, there was some connection with the term "grand union." I hope this helps you.
And here's a link to a now defunct railroad in Chicago that had more Grand Unions than Massapequa ...
http://www.ameritech.net/users/chicagotunnel/tunnel1.html
And a lot of shots of them and this bizarre little railroad called the "Chicago Tunnel company" ... a railroad snuck under the streets of Chicago surreptitiously, owned and operated by Ma Bell ...
Why? Just WHY did I have to be abroad just when this porcine discussion came about?
"Moo and Oink" Chicago IL.
More meat market than supermarket, really.
I know about bizarre supermarket names myself. I work at a "Big Y World Class Market" in Connecticut. The "Y" refers to a fork in the road where the first store in Massachusetts was located in 1936. As for other supermarkets, I've seen a "Super Stop & Shop" in Worcester, MA that sells gas. You don't see that in New England too often. :>
Re: The presence of Grand Unions in Brooklyn: a trackmap I have shows that there was an almost(3/4) GU in Queens at the intersection of Fresh Pond Rd and the private right of way, where the Flushing-Ridgewood line emerged from under the Myrtle El and turned N. on FP Rd. This intersection was also the gateway to Fresh Pond Depot. The map shows nothing of a GU in Brooklyn.
Carl M.
Yea,the thacks were still covered up with blacktop in the 60's but i didn't know that was a 3/4 verson,right in my own backyard so to speak,that Fresh Pond Rd station had two candy stores one on each side of the station,i used to work in the one on the side under the Metropolitan Ave direction,we made the best malteds and eggcreams in the area.any models of grand unions in any scale around ?
There a few in Toronto, at King Street West and Bathurst Street, (504/511), Queen Street West and Spadina Avenue (501/510), King Street West and Spadina Avenue (504 & 508/510). There may also be one at King Street East and Church Street.
This is pure speculation now, so get out the salt.
I beleive there were some in Pacific Electric country.
With all the lines Pacific Electric had in its hay day, I would expect them to have had one or some.
Can the Orange Mueseum people be of any help.
HELP!
avid
PS If anyone has a metal detector, the Corners of Lackawanna Ave. and Wyoming in the City of Scranton had a 3/4 union. IIRC.
avid
I have two quesitons I hope you folks out there can shed some light on:
1) On R-38's, what are those arms that are just off the floor on the passageway between cars. They look like they could be pulled out to serve as a gate to keep one from falling off; but this would only work on the first car of a train and I have never seen this arm in the up position.
2) With the Redbirds, what is the difference between a World's Fair and a mainline (I think) R-36. I have seen references to both here and wonder how are mainline cars different from WF's.
Thanks
Bill/Piggo
>1) On R-38's, what are those arms that are just off the floor on the passageway between cars. They look like they could be pulled out to serve as a gate to keep one from falling off; but this would only work on the first car of a train and I have never seen this arm in the up position. <
I think you are talking about the hand brake. On equipment prior to the R-40 the handbrakes were on the outside of the operating cabs. As you can imagine this caused some problems when vandals started to set the brakes when the train was in a station. To combat that the TA installed indicator lights to show when a handbrake was activated.
Starting with the R-40 the handbrakes were moved to inside the cab.
> 2) With the Redbirds, what is the difference between a World's Fair and a mainline (I think) R-36. I have seen references to both here and wonder how are mainline cars different from WF's. <
I let someone else get into most of the technical details but the most obvious difference is the side windows. The Flushing cars were given large "picture windows" while the mainline cars had standard dropsash windows. The Flushing cars also have slots just above (and slightly to the left) of the operating cab window for the Indentra system antennas which told the system if the train was an express (without) or a local (with).
Also the World's Fair R-36's were delivered in a aqua / white with a black stripe livery. (see the Museum collection pics of 9306) for an idea of the livery.....(to S-T'ers, yes I know 9306 was an R-33, but the livery's the same).
I believe that the R-36 Mainline cars were originally delivered in a dark brown (one color) livery.
Thanks,
That covers it,
I was on a A train over the weekend, and i saw someone fooling around with that, the train then was delayed a while.
WF R36 painted blue & white. Large picture windows. Door windows are larger also. Light blue interior. Aqua doors.
ML R36, R29, R33 painted RED. Small windows. Smaller windows on the doors also. A slightly different shade of blue. Door where a light shade of purple. (Much more pleasent).
>Starting with the R-40 the handbrakes were moved to inside the cab.
The #1 ends of the B cars of the R-44 & 46 have hem in the same place as the older cars, as there is no cab. Of course, this area is locked to passrengers anyway.
When I was a kid, I always wondered what they were, and they reminded me of some sort of "gate". It wasn't until the beginning of school car, Feb. that I knew what they were (and I read about "handbrakes" in the rule book I got before class started, but wondered what that was)
Interesting you mentioned they reminded you of a gate, that is the first impression I got when i saw them. I take the "A" from 168 to 59 in the morning on my way to work, I'm at 168 around 6:20 - 6:45 AM and at that time they are adding "C"'s to service, there is usually two "C"'s on the downtown tracks waiting to roll. As I want to be in the first car for access to the 57th street exit from the 59 St/Columbus Circle, I wait in front of the lead car on the "C" trains. From there, I noticed (what I now have learned is) the hand brake. I though it might have been a small gate that was used as a safety device when the cars were orignialy put into service.
Until asking about it on this board I had no idea subway cars had a hand brake. Is it used for parking the cars in the yard and when laid up?????????
Bill/Piggo
Yes...
There is also an illuminated indicator in the Motorman's cab so that the train crew is certain the brake is not engaged while the train is is motion.
In service this afternoon.
-Stef
This happened on Monday afternoon. From what I've heard, as a J train was passing a Signal Maintainer, the SM started to walk along the catwalk with a bucket in his hand. He lost his balance and was hit by the J train.
He'll be alright, but he suffered a broken back as a result.
Moral of the story: Don't ever rush. Take your time, especially if you're working in a dangerous environment like the subway.
He was picking up his tools while the middle of the train was passing by and he slipped. And he was a helper, not a maintainer.
-Harry
The Other Side Of The Tracks: A Website Devoted To The New York City Subway
Well, the story that I'd heard was a little fuzzy, but you get the drift.
I was listing to it over my Radio while I was at CIY on Monday. First of all I could not belive the I was hearing both sides of the talk, I mean the TSS and T/O at the site and command center. The TSS just said the he had back and hand pain. I guess it was wrose then they though.
Robert
I hadn't heard anything about this particular incident. What time did it happen? I can think of no other call on the radio that would be more dreaded than a fellow employee down. Derailments, collisions, etc. you can deal with. An employee struck by a train is a whole other beast. The sad part is it doesn't just happen to rookies. A few years back there was a TSS working in a GO area between 135th St and 145th St. on the midnights. He tried to clear up to allow an A train to pass but unknown to him, he was in a no clearance area (someone had stolen the sign). His safety vest or clothing was snagged by the passing train and he was pulled under. May he be the last - at least while I'm still around.
It happened yesterday roughly between 12:30 pm and 1 pm.
BTW, I know the TSS incident on the A line that you are talking about. You never want to hear about something like this happening.
Sad part is that no one on the A line showed remorse or sorrow for the fallen TSS. He was a very hated man. Too bad really.
I suppose the moral of the story is that while accidents can be avoided most of the time, they can't be avoided all of the time. Working in subway tunnels isn't like working behind a desk, there's an inherent element of danger.
That's true. Complacency can be fatal.
At the same time, we should all appreciate what these people do for us riders.
I hope this guy makes as full a recovery as possible.
Your remark about a "no clearance" area reminded me of something I've been wondering about.
While I've never made a systematic study of the issue, there seem to be a large number of niches in station walls with No Clearance signs posted (within the niche). These niches are obviously shallower than other niches I have seen. Why were these niches built that way? Have subway workers put on weight since they were built? Were the tracks moved? Is there some pattern as to where and when these were built?
I think it's just simply that as the TA becomes more sensative to safety, the specifications for what's safe and what's not likely has changed. In short, they've likely just increased the safety margin for clearances in niches.
(I think it's just simply that as the TA becomes more sensative to safety, the specifications for what's safe and what's not likely has changed. In short, they've likely just increased the safety margin for
clearances in niches.)
In many ways, the TA has gone safety crazy, though given what I heard about the average number of workers killed per year in the old days (about 3) that's just as well. I took track safety, and had to back into a niche on the 14th Street line. With those 600 volt tongues going by, I couldn't push up against the wall hard enough.
The crazy part? We have monthly safety meetings, which are taken very seriously by top management. I work in an office. You can only be told to close the file cabinets so no one trips so many times.
Nonetheless, there is clearly a big emphasis on safety in field, along with all the GTs, etc.
NEVER walk past a moving train...clear up 'til it passes...
If you rode along the Queens Blvd corridor on Tuesday morning (and midday), then you know exactly what I mean.
Hmmmm, where do I start.......
1) 7:20 am--A southbound F train goes BIE (brakes in emergency) on the switches at 75th Avenue screwing everything behind it (including my train). The stop arm on the home signal came up underneath the train, tripping it.
2) 7:55 am--A southbound E train goes BIE entering Lexington Avenue. Stays put for over 20 minutes. Guess who was right behind it? (Answer: me). Strangely, the exact same thing happened here as at 75th Avenue, the home signal came up underneath the train. To make matters worse, the call-on lever wouldn't operate.
You know that your day is starting off on the wrong foot when your first trip of the day gets stuck behind two BIE's. I could only imagine how my passengers were feeling. Some C trains as a result were rerouted to Parsons/Archer. So if you thought that the Mexican food that you had before bedtime last night was making you hallucinate, rest assured that you really did see R38's on the QB corridor.
3) 11:15 am--A southbound C train gets accidentally tripped by the Tower Operator at Canal Street on the local track. Further north at 50th Street, the TW/O at 42/8 tells the southbound E that he's being sent over the express track. The T/O takes the lineup. Low and behold, right in front of him are a portable trip, and a set of red banker lights. Now, not only is the C service messed up, now ALL the 8th Avenue trains are messed up because he passed the home signal blocking the express track from receiving a line-up. Turns out that someone in the Track Dept. took the switch out of service without telling the Tower OR Control Center. Oops!
Needless to say, a day to forget!
On my return trip to 207h, I heard on the radio the C being directed to go to Queens, and then saw it (R-38's) at 42nd. I looked ahead, and it did take the diversion to 50th St. lower level. We left 207th at 11:15 (solid R-32 A. Passed another at Bway-Nassau), and there was some delay causing us to take the express from 125-59 at about 15mph average, the whole way. I was wondering what on earth was going on out there.
Oy! My condolences to you and your passengers, and my thanks that I wasn't on the QB express this morning.
Dan
Saw two BIE's myself today, fortunately they were in the opposite direction from which I was traveling.
Perhaps the signals got overexcited from today's cool fresh air?
Where's Kaz Dolowicz when you need him ?
Bill "Newkirk"
Or Frank Corrall? He'd say, "Aside from that, everything's ginger peachy."
Z, I was on the southbound QB corridor that day around 9am & things were still screwed up. Thank God I had my trusty morning paper to keep me occupied. It took about 20 minutes to go from QP to Lex. Very slow, and many stops within the tunnel. Both C/R and T/O were making announcements. The speakers in my car were very faint, but they announced the reason for the delays, BIEs, and seemed to be going through a long harrang in which they gave out car numbers. Why, I don't know.
The question is, would 'V' service have added to or alleviated some of the chaos?
It would've alleviated. The F + E runs 2 minuite headways through 53rd. With the F running through 63rd instead and having the V cover, it would've been a bigger headway. It doesn't run as often.
I was riding the F train today to check out the Culver Express and Bergen St. lower level, and I noticed that the subway map in R-46 5249 was updated to show the July 22nd service changes.
Dan
Well I'd bet $20 to a donut that it wasn't in car 5249. That's an R44 for you'ze country folk out there.
"Well I'd bet $20 to a donut that it wasn't in car 5249. That's an R44 for you'ze country folk out there."
Hey! Watch it! Us bumpkins KNOW what "fresh country scent" means and we laugh our overalls off when we see it being advertised to city slickers on their local teevee in aerosol cans. And when enough of us get together to form a coven, we point those big backyard satellite dishes at the city, all change channels at the same time and cause trip arms to come up in Queens. Don't mess with us. :)
Okay, then it was probably 5924. Not sure. I wrote the car number on the palm of my hand at the beginning of 4 hours of railfanning and there was very little left when I was done. There is nothing left now.
Dan
Today? The F isn't supposed to be running through Bergen lower this week. Is it? Which direction?
I am posting the time I leave the Euclid Ave on the "C" on my last trip so that if anyone want to meet up after the Busfest on Wendsday you know when I leave. I make the 5:34pm out of Euclid Ave. I get to 145 at 6:38pm and return trip at 6:54pm. If anyone is there I will try to get there about 10min before I leave. I just figure it would be nice to meet more of you guy while you did some rail fanning. I do keep my door open with a c clamp so you can look into the cab. I as leave Eculid at 11:04am and 2:24pm on my first two trip.
Hope to see you there.
Robert
Hey, Bobby, looks like you're working my regular Saturday job for the 4th, Job C 205, so I know when you're leaving Euclid and 168th.
I'll see if I can meet up with you on one of the trips. That is if I haven't stuffed myself silly with hot dogs and hamburgers from my barbeque. :-)
Thats Right C205. Hope to see you there.
Robert
I wish I can go but I got my own work to do on the 2 line. It is a late PM job out of FLA.
I'm sorry I couldn't make it. But I think it's very nice of you to actually invite people to railfan on your runs. Somehow, instinctively, I'd think most TOs wouldn't like railfans. Maybe I was wrong on that count?
I don't mind people railfaning with me. I used to ride train myself before I got married and had my baby girl. I would like to do more but I can't becouse I watch her on my days off. I like being a T/O, it's was something that I wanted to do since I was a kid. So why not let other ride with me on something that I like doing. I would not let anyone come ride with me when I was driving the bus for the TA. I will post sometime down the road more of the line that I will work. I know two day ahead what I will be working. If I am on a line with all railfan windows that is when I will post it.
Hope to see someone on my train.
Robert
Very nice, Robert. My lousy job's sending me away for most of the summer and fall, so I won't have the chance. But I'll keep posting here, and hopefully, soon enough, I'll be on your train!!
Same here! Thats the crazy thing about being RX (Road Extra). I also don't mind if railfans ride with me but I know being a C/R I have a disadvantage and that is no railfan really wants to ride with the Conductor since we are all the way in the 6th car.
Well tomorrow I will be on the No.6 Line and Saturday I don't have a clue.
Well being RX may be coming to an end for me I talked to the pick man and he said there will be a job for me. That a good thing about being a C/R you only stay RX less then 1 YR.
Bobby, See you on the 5:34, somewhere mid-trip!
Trev
I was in London this weekend. I left Friday afternoon and got there Saturday Morning where I spent about two and a half days there. I was planning on going to Stonehenge, but we found out we didn't have enough money to do so, so that meant a lot of time for railfanning. Here are a few pictures I took. All questions are at the end of the post.
The London Underground is great. I saw much more of the system than I originally planned, and I'm glad I did. Here's what lines I went on (I didn't do each segment all at the same time for the most part):
Circle- all of it
District- Bow Road to Earl's Court
Jubilee- Willesden Green to North Greenwich
Northern- London Bridge to Euston
Piccadilly- Earl's Court to Holborn
Central- Notting Hill Gate to Holborn
Bakerloo- Baker St to Waterloo
Victoria- Euston to Victoria
Metropolitan - Finchley Rd to Baker St.
Docklands- Bank to Canary Wharf and Bow Road
and some double decker buses
You can tell I only had a zone 1 and 2 pass, judging where I ended my journey on some of the lines. Here are my observations:
Transport Museum- This place answered nearly all of my questions about the Underground that I was going to ask here. Very good place to learn about the history and operation of the system.
Passageways- The Underground LOVES those long-ass passageways between the tube lines, don't they? I wouldn't be surprised if certain stations had miles of them. Bank/Monument on the Northern/Central/Circle/District had the longest that I went to. It must have taken 15 minutes to get from the Central line entrance to the Circle line.
The word "subway" does not mean what it means in the US, I found out the hard way when I went I went down one to find out that it means an underground crosswalk. It only happened once. I figured out that where it says "UndergrounD Public Subway" that it actually means the Underground is there, but an underground crosswalk for general use is there as well.
Mind the Gap The gaps really weren't as big as I thought. They should say "Mind the Step." No train floor was level with the platform anywhere.
Spiral staircases/elevators/escalators The tube stations are very deep. At Covent Garden, the stairs had 193 steps, 15 stories, according to the announcement, and I went down, there's no way I'd walk up that many steps. The escalators were fast as hell, maybe twice the speed of US ones. The Transport Museum has a history of the escalators and elevators. The first escalators had an angled railing to get people to walk off the escalator on the side, because the groove and tooth setup wasn't invented yet. The setup they have with the elevators is to maximize passenger flow, they have two doors, people exit on one side and enter on the other side. The one way passageways help make this setup successful.
Tube lines- The platform height of the tube line is very low, I'd say no more than 2 feet high! Because of this, all of the tube train floors were higher than the platforms. The trains are extremely tiny. I'm almost as tall as the trains. The newest tube stock seems to be on the Jubilee and Northern lines. I could really tell how tight the tunnel clearances are by watching the train enter the station. The roof has the tightest clearance. The trains here appear to be pretty fast. It might be because of the tiny dimensions, but when watching a train depart, it's moving at a fast pace. I was surprised to see how short the stations and trains are, on both tube and subsurface, makes it even more amazing how they carry the billion or so people a year.
Sub Surface lines- The platform height here was also lower than the floor height, but still higher than the tube lines. The tunnels, like the tubes, have no lights in them, so it's pitch black in the tunnels, giving a cool spooky appearance. The tunnels here are for the most part made of brick and there are places where the line is open trench.
Jubilee/Metropolitan- You can really tell where the new segment begins because right after Green Park, the ride is way smoother, and also right after Green Park, you can see the old tunnel to Charing Cross. The announcements on the Jubilee sound like Mary Poppins or Angela Lanisbury recorded them. The segment between Finchley Rd and Willesden Green was the only above ground segment I rode on. Here, the Jubilee runs along the Metropolitan line, which essentially runs express. Here is where one of my questions was answered if there were any connections between the Sub-surface and Tube lines (there is). After going to the Transport Museum and looking at the historical maps did I understand why the platforms were higher than the Jubilee train- because this used to be served by the Metropolitan line before the Jubilee existed, and Subsurface stock is higher than tube stock. The Metropolitan trains flew by the stations, those are some fast trains. It was cool to see the tube train pulling in at Willesden Green and a Metropolitan train flying past it. This is a good place to compare the sizes of the different stock. Some of the Metropolitan lines ended at Baker St, which makes perfect sense, because it looks like there are four different Metropolitan line, and trying to have them all merge with Hammersmith and City and Circle line would not work.
Central- Unfortunately, the Central line was closed between Holborn and Liverpool St. because of "Planned engineering work," so I didn't get to ride as much of it as I liked. I think this is the oldest tube line, yet it looks in good condition.
District/Circle- I spent most of my time on the sub-surface lines here. The original Underground segment was along here. I first got on the Underground at Victoria to go to my hotel near Bayswater. I went to Earl's Court to check out the only station where all the District lines meet. Later on, after riding the Docklands to Bow Road, I got on another District line train. I wanted to get on a Hammersmith train, but never saw one, not ever at Aldgate East, where they were supposed to terminate off peak. There is also a cross platform transfer for the Central at Mile End.
When I got off the Metropolitan at Baker St, I was going to transfer to Bakerloo, but I was exploring the station at first, not remembering at that moment the significance of that station, when I went to the Circle/Hammersmith platform. I suddenly got the picture of that old Baker St drawing from the 1800s in my head, and then I saw a poster that put a big smile on my face that had the drawing I had pictured and the words "The World's First Underground Station, 1863."
Docklands- The light rail line is cool, I like how it's totally automated.
Questions
What is the oldest stock in the system? It appears to be the white cars on the District line, but I think they are only from 1980.
Why does the Metropolitan line have those seats with the high backs, instead of the normal bench seating? They're comfortable, but they take up standing room.
The Museum said they were automating the system. Which lines are automated? They said the new Jubilee segment is automated, what about the rest of that line?
Is there a connection between the Victoria and Northern line near Euston? I think a saw a tunnel veer off, but I'm not sure.
How many total lines are there in the system? There's the 12 mainlines, but I counted around 22 when you count the branches lines.
How long has the platforms at South Kensington and Willesden Green been abandoned? When was the last time the Metropolitan used Willesden Green?
When tube lines diverge do they use flying crossovers? Is this the first application of this?
Where are the system hubs at? Earl's Court is an obvious one, but I can't tell about the others.
Are they gradually lengthening the subsurface platforms? Most stations I saw could handle another car, and at one station, I could tell that the platform was lengthened.
When the Jubilee was extended at Westminster, did they completely renovate the Circle line station, or is that a new station? It looks completely new, unlike the rest of the Circle line.
When the Jubilee was extended at Westminster, did they completely renovate the Circle line station, or is that a new station? It looks completely new, unlike the rest of the Circle line.
That was an existing station on the District / Circle line which (I believe) remained open during reconstruction. I found a very cool book in the gift shop of the Transport Museum about the whole history of the Jubilee Line station. I didn't have enough cash to pick it up at the time, but I plan to order it online as soon as funds become available.
Isn't that station at Westiminster incredible? Making a transfer at that station for the first was a totally unexpected treat for me, and during my week there I found myself going out of my way just to use that station! The inside feels like the interior of some alien spaceship from Star Trek. Ditto for most of the other stations on the Jubilee Line extension, especially Canary Wharf and North Greenwich. Did you get a chance to wander around at bit at any of those stations? They make even MARTA and Washington Metro look like fossils.
I also found that most of the gaps at the "mind the gap" stations were smaller than expected. Exceptions are at stations with sharply-curving platforms, particularly at Bank (I forget which line). The gap there is big enough for a small person to stand in without touching either the platform edge nor the train. There may be other similar gaps throughout the system as well, but that's the biggest I saw.
You're totally right about the speed of the escalators there, and also the generally modern feel of the system. I got incredibly spoiled during my week there, and it was a letdown to come back to what seems like a third-world transit system in comparison.
-- David
Chicago, IL
Bank Central Line and Waterloo Bakerloo Line for the really large gaps.
and Embankment Northbound on the Northern
Is that because of the exit to the Charing Cross Loop? Does this still exist?
The new Jubilee stations I got to wander around are: Westmester, Bermondesy, North Greenwich and Canry Wharf. The stations are marvelous, and Westmester does look like soething out of Star Trek. You mentioned why Canry Wharf was so big after your trip, now I see what you're talking about. That station is huge, but with all the construction going on around there, it will probably be pretty busy eventually. Anyone know why North Greenwich has three tracks? I saw a train terminate there with no passengers.
Like I've said before, no US subway will built any station as beautiful as anything in Europe, so our subways will always look like fossils compared to Europe's.
Something else that I liked about the cars there was how fast the doors would close, but they softly touch each other right when the doors met. That would keep people from holding the doors, yet won't actually hurt anyone.
I think that some trains were intended to turn round at North Greenwich, particularly for the Millenium Dome crowds that never came. Also, there remains the possibility that the Jubilee Line will extend southeast to Woolwich.
Rob
I can answer your questions but it will take a time!
The oldest stock that actually exists is 1938 Tube Stock - very reliable but not one-man operated. It was last used on the Northern Line in the 80s when it was re-introduced (In its original paint style) to cope with the upturn in traffic. The last examples are now museum pieces.
The oldest current stock is the "A" stock on the Met - those high seat backs on the express north of Baker St - the high seat backs are just extra comfort for what used to be a "Mainline" service to the outer suburbs - in the 1920s they even had Pullman cars!! The "A"s were introduced in the early 1960s.
The Victoria Line is really the only fully automated line and has been since it was opened in the 60s - it is unpopular with crews and management. The Operator only works the doors and the train drives itself, he has to take over in an emergency, but experience shows that because they do nothing for most of the time, when they do need to react and take over the controls, the time lapse is too long for safe operating. I never worked on this line - the Operators really hate it.
The Central is in theory Auto in the tunnel sections - but I think the drivers have the option. Jubilee beyond Green Park is equipped - but you will need to ask a current Operator about this. The Northern was to have "rolling block signalling" a sort of virtual "safe braking distance" between trains, but i think it failed at the design stage.
There are 3 underground connections between Tube Lines - one at Euston between the Victoria and Northern, one at King Cross between the Northern and Piccadilly and one at Baker St between the Bakerloo and Jubilee (the Jubilee is an extension of the old Bakerloo Stanmore Branch) - all other connections between lines are in the open - District and Piccadilly between Barons Court and Hammersmith - Met and Jubilee at Finchley Rd, Neasden, Wembley Pk, etc, Met and Piccadilly at Rayners Lane and the Met and District share the Circle and share tracks to Barking.
These allowed stock moves between Depots and to the defunct Works at Acton where all stock was overhauled.
Pass on how many Lines there are - depends how you count them!
The traditional Operating Divisions and their Control Rooms are: District and Picc out of Earls Court, Victoria and Northern out of Euston, Central and Met, Bakerloo and Jubilee out of Baker St.
Docklands is a seperate entity. H&C is the original Underground (1863) and was a joint Met and Great Western Railway Operation, then Met and later absorbed into London Transport (in 1933).
High St Kensington - Gloucester Rd - South Kensington was a 4 track parallel operation from the 1860s due to running rights disputes between the Met and the District who were charged by Act of Parlimant to build and Operate the "Inner Circle". This section was reduced to 2 and 3 line working in the late 60s, with the District Main Line diverging west of Gloucester Rd.
Everything North of Baker St was originally the Met Main Line. The Bakerloo extended up to Stanmore under the "New Works" of LT in the 30s. It is now the Jubilee. Willesden Green, Neasden, etc became "local" stations at that time, but the Met may call there on some rare early morning staff and first trains.
The first application of the "flying crossover" occurs on the District where the Westbound Local from High St Kensington dives under the Westbound Main from Gloucester Rd. This dates from the early 1870s (Steam operated).
Virtually all underground Tube Junctions use flyunders and crossovers.
The most famous is Camden Town where 2 suburban and 2 city branches meet. All trains can be routed to any destination by underground flying junctions without conflicts - built in the early 1920s and quite an engineering feat.
As above, the Divisional Hubs are Earls Court, Euston and Baker St where the Control Rooms and Divisional Offices are located.
Train lengths have varied over the years: the Central was 6, extended to 8 in 1947, Victoria is 8, other tubes are 7 car, but modern longer cars mean they are now 6, as is the District.
It is the car length that dictates the number of cars: 6xD cars = 7 old R or Q cars, etc.
Platforms on the District were capable of 8 (old) car operation, tho many had "catwalks" out into the tunnels to allow this. Up until the abolition of "uncoupling duties" in 1964, the District had a 2 car Unit added to the standard 6 car Train for Rush Hour Operation.
They also ran, at times, 7 cars to circumvent this need.
Up until WW2, the District operated jointly to Southend with the London Tilbury and Southend Railway (later LMS) and ran 12 car trains from Upminster to Whitechapel, uncoupling them to run a 6 car express and 6 car local through town. All District Platforms East of Whitechapel are therefore 12 car.
The District/Circle Station at Westinster is in the same place as the original, just completely rebuild for the Jubilee Line extension.
Think that answers all your questions!!
Thanks!! I might have more quetions once I can think of them.
Where are there extra platforms at South Kensington?
The current South Ken station is an island platform. If you look north, you can see one spare platform easily (when I was there earlier this year, it had signs and tubs with flowers in them on it).
If you look south, then there is a lot of space with nothing. This is where extra tracks/platforms used to be until the last renovations, when they replaced the lifts to the Piccadilly line with escalators (you can see the concrete building that houses them).
When I first started going to South Ken in the late 1960’s (to go to the Science Museum), there was only lift service, and if you wanted to transfer between the Piccadilly and Circle/District lines, you had to come up the lift, then go downstairs.
John
BTW: there is still the long underground passage to the museums that goes from the station under Cromwell Road to Exhibition Road!
The current South Ken station is an island platform. If you look north, you can see one spare platform easily (when I was there earlier this year, it had signs and tubs with flowers in them on it).
Interesting. Unfortunately I have no plans to get to London any time soon, and if I look north from here I see my bedroom wall.
Remind me, where is the Piccadilly line placed in relation to the Circle/District?
BTW: there is still the long underground passage to the museums that goes from the station under Cromwell Road to Exhibition Road!
I remember it well! I stayed roughly midway between South Kensington and Knightsbridge, and with the greater variety of lines at SK, that's where I ended up most of the time. (I suppose the old Brompton Road station would have come in handy, but I was about 50 years late.)
The Piccadilly line is under the Circle/District and runs roughly parallel. (Next stop west on both lines is Gloucester Road; next stop east on the Piccadilly is Knightsbridge, next stop east on the Circle/District is Sloane Square, so you have the stops at the top/bottom of Sloane Street).
If you go down to the Piccadilly line at South Ken, you can find the remains of the lift shafts: they are still used for ventilation.
John
The Piccadilly started out as a tube line from Kings Cross to Waterloo and went bankrupt during construction under Holborn Kingsway.
It was bought by W Tyson Yerkes of Lake St El fame, who moved to London in the early 1900s to escape his dodgy financial dealings in Chicago.
He also acquired the bankrupt Lords - Westminster tube and the feldgling Northern (then the Hampstead Tube)as well as the steam operated District Railway. The group was known as London Electric Railways and its trade mark was the UndergrounD.
The District was about to start boring surface gauge tubes under the Earl's Court area between Hammersmith and Sth Kensington for an express service, and Yerkes had these built as Tube gauge and run on from South Kensington to Holborn via Picaddilly Circus, before making a 90degree connection to the tubes under Holborn. This became the Picaddily.
The Lords - Westminster tube was rebuilt and connected Paddington Mainline and Waterloo and became the Bakerloo.
The Hampstead gradually extended North to Golders green where Tysons buddies built speculative housing, and eventualy merged with the City and South London Subway to form the double branched Northern Line.
It's probably better to read my first post, "Trip to London" before reading my opinions.
For a system that is 40 years older than the NYC subway, the Underground makes NYCT look like a fossil. The Underground is way more modern than NYCT, they installed and/or installing automatic trains, and the system overall look much newer than NYC.
My favorite car type was the Central line trains. They look similar to the Jubilee stock, but I like a larger picture windows and the light that go down the middle of the interior, instead of two off center. My favorite segment was the above ground part of the Jubilee line, it just looks so cool to watch the two different stocks riding together at a fast pace. While I enjoyed all the lines a lot, I think I liked the tube lines better. But I still the like Subsurface with the brick tunnels, open cuts and old looking stations.
I love the fast escalators they have, we need those kind of escalators in the US. And, take note, Americans, people there STAND ON THE RIGHT and pass on left. They don't block the entire width of the escalator, a favorite pastime of Atlantans.
I've gotta give props on how the tubes lines were built. I learned all about it at the Museum. They had some hard work to do. Also, it's quite an accomplishment making all the tube lines standard, even though they were all built by separate companies. It could have easily been like the IRT and BMT/IND situation, or worse.
For anyone wanting to go to London, I would suggest that you ride around the system first to get a feel for it, then go to the museum so you can understand what they are talking about, then go and ride around the system some more, seeing the things you learned about. That's what I did, and I think I enjoyed it more.
My favorite cars were on the Jubilee Line. Like you said, the announcements that sound like they were made by Mary Poppins, and the whirring of the A/C motors made those cars my favoprite to ride on by far. My favorite ride was on the Piccadilly Line from Heathrow Airport to Hammersmith, especially the very bouncy express run between Acton Town and Hammersmith. Wheeee!
As far as the Stand On The Right thing, it makes perfect sense and it makes everything flow easier. English people have a love affair with queueing (though it's weaned a bit in recent years). Don't ever expect it to take hold here.
The major problem with the Tube is their signalling system. It's really shoddy and it's got a major problem. When a signal fails and goes to red, the only option is to hit the stop arm repeatedly. Their signals don't hook down or key.
Two things:
1) Three days wasn't enough, eh?
2) Was it really as hot in the Tubes as I've been hearing? (they've been saying station temps of 100 degrees).
Yup, 3 days wasn't enough to see anything, especially since I spent the majority of Sunday riding the Underground. I think I did a lot of things on Saturday however.
The tubes weren't really that hot, in fact it was quite windy in there. I assume this is because of the tight tunnel clearances and the trains have to push all that air out somehwere. The temperature felt good in the whole city, except on Monday, it was hot as hell.
Did you get to Stonehenge ?
Simon
Swindon UK
No, it was too expensive for us to go there.
I saw an R142 on the 2 line an hour ago. I only saw the last cars, #6341-6345. What is the other trainset coupled to it?
CWalNYC
R142_#6421-6430
Did you read my previous post?
6336-40 and 6341-45 are together.
-Stef
ok so i am waiting at cortlandt st after work at about 2:05 so i can take an n train downtown to 59th st and then catch a 95th bound r like i do every other weekday. i just miss the r so i know the n is coming soon. the n shows up and just as it is almost fully in the station they make an announcement that the n train is skipping cortlandt and everyone should step back from the platform. ugh. then about 3 minutes later an r comes, i wait patiently for the n and about 2 minutes later that arrives. i get on and no problems until whitehall when it pulls into the center track. the train stops while in the tunnel and we wait there for what seems to be forever but was probably 5-10 minutes. i was exhausted from work and i kept nodding off and waking up thinking it was almost 59th and we hadn't moved at all. we stop again right after leaving de kalb for another 10 minutes or so. finally we get to 59th and the r is waiting with the doors open, perfect transfer i guess everything is alright. WRONG. as soon as the doors of the n open, the conductor on the r closes his. people run out of the train screaming and yelling at the conductor, cursing, pouting the whole 9. they then turn and yell at the n conductor who has no idea whats going on/doesn't really care whats going on. tempers are flared and the n leaves. wait a few minutes and the n pulls in the station on the local tracks so everyone calms down thinking its the r but it was an n. people take out all their anger on the unfortunate conductor. some lady is screaming and cursing at him and yelling at people in the train and saying racist things to people at the station. she then lights a cigarette in the station because shes fed up(and because shes a stupid addict). then a B train pulls into the station on the express track. then a few minutes later a B train pulls in on the local while an R train pulls in on the express. i suck at telling stories i know. moral of the story, that trip usually takes me 40 minutes tops, it took an hour and 5 minutes or so today. also what the hell was going on that there would be B trains at 59th street on a weekday?
later,
tim
You got school cars using the express tracks at Pacific, so there's a whole lotta switching going on. The 4th ave ride on the N for me seemed slower today too. Because of a school car on the S/B express at Pacific our southbound N was express on local, and there were some people in stations we went through giving the finger. If this mess is from the school cars maybe this should've only been done at night and on weekends. Let me guess, the TA didn't have enough time because the construction of the south side ran behind schedule.
thanks for the info. ugh i hate when they run the n express on the local tracks. then they blow the horn which scares/angers people and its always slower and i miss my r connection at 95th. oh well little things to whine about.
"If this mess is from the school cars..."
From my experience (current) with school cars, the school cars do not delay the road - the road delays the school cars! : - )
Before starting my road posting, we did "road operations" for two weeks between 8 PM and 4 AM (hours I truly enjoyed).
Wanted to report new additions to the redbird scrapline. Was up at 207 Yd. today. On 1 tk. (old loop) are 8 redbirds, stripped and ready to go. Maybe to the Concourse. There are no couplers or regular under carbody linkbars in the consist of cars. They are all linked together by these special yellow linkbars that lie on the carbody passenger floor. They appear to be "L" shaped. One leg of the L is inserted through that opening in the floor right above the truck where the centercasting is supposed to be. The opening is normally covered by a small steel plate that is screwed to the floor. The other leg of the L is extended through the storm door opening and linked with the next car. The car numbers are: 7902-03, 7870-71, 7814-15 and 7789-88. Only two of these cars (7814-15) have been reported already. From my earlier posts I was trying to find out what happened to 9486-87. They are in the back of the shop on 6 North, stripped and have some colorful graffiti on them. I am still trying to get a date on when I had seen them stripped in the shop. It was at least 3 months ago. I really believe that these two are the first to be scrapped in the replacement program. In the shop I also wanted to report the newest members of the list. 7750-51, 7752-53, 7754-55 and 8610-11. They are on 12 and 13 tks. The first two pairs are just about done and was told that the other four are to follow with the same fate.
Thanks for the info. It is all very interesting to me.
GRAFFITI ON REDBIRDS? WHere please explain the location within the yard, how much graffit?
You would think 9486-87 would go to the #7 line.
Is there anywhere on the web where a "Deadbird" list is and a list of new cars in service is??
And where are they going after stripping and decoupling, etc.
Apologies if this question was asked already.
flx7595
Our web host has begun a list. Visit "What's New" on this site.
7870-71? That’s one of the units which, on the front end of the former car (7870), has the pre-’78 color scheme for routes (i.e. the grey for the #5)! Anyone make sure that’s out of the car before it’s scrapped? It’d be a shame to see the signs in the cars go to waste. . . .
All the signs in all the cars are gone. Some duplex air guages and some master controller handles are still there.
Thanks for that update. Now, were all the signs kept somewhere, or were they all junked? That would be a tragedy if they were.
The following are now retired into storage at CCY. The 7875 still has the R22 storm door dropdown sash window, leaving only two cars left with them in service, possibly 7773 and one other. 8776/7 were pictured in the Utica Avenue portal crash around 1981. My fav out of this batch was 9520/1. It was my last Pelham R36 before transfering to the BMT which was capable of 55 MPH. I seemed to recall most WH R36s ran swift, especially ones from Pelham, as opposed to Corona.
7874/5
7784/5
7764/5
7760/1
7802/3
7854/5
8776/7
7918/9
7756/7
7828/9
9482/3
7952/3
9484/5
7894/5
9520/3
9480/1
9478/9
Car 7773 was still in service as of 7/2. I rode in it. I didn't realize until I got off that both end doors had the r22 windows.
Again, up at 207 Yd. today. R110B #3007-8-9 that have been cannibalized for some time took a trip within the yard. It looped twice and then went back into the barn. It had a blueprint diagram taped to its outer carbody. Had an interesting end sign. An orange circled A. Never seen that before. Went into the barn later and some guys were working on the cars and asked if they were planning on returning them to service. They replied, "yes." Probably a good bet that we won't see them soon though.
I was there too and they were pulling it around with a R-38. The motors must not be working.
I was there too after laying up an AM road train. I saw the blueprint taped to the side, but not the front. The orange A was basically the proposed Q to 207th renamed to keep the A as the Wash Hts express. (The original plan had it as local to 168). This too was shot down, since it would take the A off 8th Av. and send it out to the Brighton. (Wonder what they would have done with it now with the Bridge changes). Such routings are still programmed into the R-44/46 signs.
It seems every time I go to 207th yard, I see some of the 110B units moving around, and others still in the barn. It seems they don't know what to do with them.
Also in the shop, some redbirds in the 7750's are being stripped.
I also saw the crane lift one end of two cars off the trucks, and the workers placed the yellow props under the carbody.
Where were you?????????????????????????????????? HA HA
They were trying to pick up 3001-2-3 but they had a hi-lo condition.
They must need MORE SUGAR!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! HA HA
Please be advised that an R-62A car # 2155 from the # 3 line is now at corona yard all by itself. The north end sign is signed up "Not In Service while the south end sign says "3" the side signs read 3 148st Lenox Terminal./ New Lots Ave. I cant believe this. Hang tough REDBIRDS!!!!!!!!!!
YESSSSSS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
THAT'S WHAT I'M TALKING ABOUT, PROGRESSION! BRING ON DA 62s!
Regards,
T.Lo
www.transitalk.com
NOOOOOOOO !!!! HELL F---!! NOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!...........
THIS IS NOT PROGRESSION, NO MATTER WHO THINKS THEY KNOW WHAT THEY ARE TALKIN' BOUT'
( besides its only ONE r-62 ) ..........LOL !!........ The redbirds should make thier last stand on the flushing # 7 line !!
& trevor with no railfan window to enjoy the # 7 line with why all of the excitement of having the # 7 line ruined ??
& again with no railfan window to enjoy the # 7 line with as well ???? ......no reason to visit nyc anymore, my birthplace...
reguards,
S.W.A.
http://photos.yahoo.com/asiaticcommunications
I hate to say this Salaam, but all those R-62As coming off the #6, they gotta show up somewhere.
Bill "Newkirk"
The good news, Salaam, is that not all R-62As have transverse cabs. The even better news is that I may be able for you to videotape from a redbird on the DJL Line.
Salaam, old buddy old pal ... you're missing a GOLDEN opportunity here ... betcha Train Dud and the TA would LOVE it if you could get some funding together out there to open up a retirement home for wayward redbirds ... we could stack 'em like cordwood!
And if the funding was REALLY there, we could solve everybody's problems once the cell phone wires go in to place webcams on a couple of trains under the windshield wiper (T/O side) and provide a RICH webcam railfan experience for anyone with a TV set ... now THAT would be neat ... given all the desire for a railfan view and the cameras themselves getting dirt cheap, the only real cost would be wiping the lenses during general maintenance and paying for the bandwidth ...
Here we go!
See we are two different rail fans, I railfan for the ride, the speed and the sounds, the railfan window is just a add plus. 95% of the time, if a railfan window is open, I'd still op to sit down!
If railfanning is all about standing at some window, then I wouldn't call it railfanning, I'd call it "WINDOWFANNING." And no that is not some comical joke. I'm being dead ass serious.
And REMEMBER THIS.....IT ONLY TAKES JUST 1 TO START THE BALL ROLLING. KISS THE DEADBIRDS GOODBYE SON SON!
KAWASAKI POWER!!!!!!
Regards,
T.Lo
www.transitalk.com
If railfanning is all about standing at some window, then I wouldn't call it railfanning, I'd call it "WINDOWFANNING."
It's not just standing at the window; it's looking out at track, third rail, signals, switches, trains coming the other way, et al.
Just sitting in a seat listening to the sounds and feeling the vibes through your arse is just as valid a railfanning experience. Just because you don't share the perspective of others doesn't mean that theirs is invalid.
Windowfanner
I enjoy looking out the front, also. But on transverse cabs you sit and look out the side windows ,like the regular passengers do, and enjoys the sounds, switches and everything else. Don't forget the spectacular views of the cities you get when on the elevated sections.
Chuck Greene
Thank You Chuck!
Regards,
T.Lo
www.transitalk.com
NOT UNTIL I AM FINISHED VIDEOTAPING THEM FIRST !!!!!!!
as for your japanese built cars i guess a lot of americans are unemployed and recieving unemploymnent & welfare !!
so nuch for rolling some ball somewhere !!! 'just wont see them built right they way they used to be'
so much for some shiny new crap ( junk ) lika some of these new light rail cars made by sharyo scrap-ready-made-junkers!! LOL!!
thanks
S.W.A.
http://photos.yahoo.com/asiaticcommunications
Ahem, Canadian, canadian cars. Also, those cars running for the past 15 or so years. They nice MDBF record as of late.
ok
Does anyone yet have an idea how the R-62A singles from the 3 are going to be paired up on the Flushing line? Linked to a five-car unit as a 6-5 pairing for an 11-car train or kept by themselves as a 5-5-1 or 5-1-5 pairing?
It seems like the first way would be the easiest arriangement, although it would allow for the fewest changes, since a six-car linked unit would have to be paired up with another five-car unit if it's regular partner had to go into the shop (two spare five-car linked units could be paired together without any problem). If all the linked units are kept at five cars and the singles are retained, a 5-5-1 or 5-1-5 arraingement would create a car isolated from all the other cars on the train by the transverse cabs (not that this is anything new for B Division riders, but it would be unique for the IRT).
On the other hand, if they did go to a set-up of linked five-car units and decided not to put transverse cabs in the remaining singles, there could still be an occassional railfan window opportunity on the Flushing Line if the singles ended up at the head end of one of the trains.
First of all, you could not operate in revenue service with a car isolated from the others. Since the R-62As have no electric door releases, passengers would be trapped in an emergency. Secondly, not all R-62s have transverse cabs. Thirdly, the cars were designed so that the transverse cab could be collapsed into a traditional corner cab with only a modest amount of labor.
First of all, you could not operate in revenue service with a car isolated from the others. Since the R-62As have no electric door releases, passengers would be trapped in an emergency.
How are they not trapped in an emergency on the 75-footers? Sure, in an emergency that the crew is aware of, they'll unlock the doors. But what if a passenger gets sick, or is physically threatened, and needs to move to another car? (About a month ago, when I found myself alone in the second car of an R-44 stopped for a few minutes between stations, I was a bit apprehensive. I suppose I would have been even more apprehensive if there had been exactly two of us.) The only way to get the attention of the crew is to pull the brake, which wouldn't be advisable.
Secondly, not all R-62s have transverse cabs.
The first and fifth cars in all five-car R-62 and R-62A linked sets have transverse cabs. (If that's not the case, some cars have been hiding pretty well.) Only the 3 runs R-62A singles, either as 1-1-1-1-5 or as 1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1 (so one end, if not both, of every 3 train has a railfan window).
"Only the 3 runs R-62A singles, either as 1-1-1-1-5 or as 1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1."
Okay, so how does that contradict what I've said? You're not totally factually correct but that's another story. As I've said, the transverse cabs can be undone if necessary.
"But what if a passenger gets sick, or is physically threatened, and needs to move to another car?"
In a case where a train has to be evacuated, the end doors can be unlocked on a 75' car. Fire, smoke, collision, derailment, etc. can be dealt with. In the case of a sick passenger, what good is moving to another car (unless they are puking their guts out and you want to move away)? The train won't go any faster even if you alert the crew. Yes, you might be able to get a medical response a tad quicker but likely not significantly. In the case where you were being physically threatened, what makes you think the perp would just let you get up and leave? To quote Frank Correll,"What do they want for their lousy 35 cents? To live forever?".
Now let me tell you something that you will likely never need to know. The end door glass on all 75' cars is NOT glass. Lean against it! Push on it! It's a thick polycarbonate. It can flex enough to be pushed out in an emergency. Once out, you can reach the emergency unlock switch and open the door. As for you being apprehensive, what ultimately happened? I assume nothing? I assume your "Fight or Flight" response mode was just working overtime. Get yourself some pepper spray and relax a little.
Okay, so how does that contradict what I've said?
It doesn't. I was just clarifying.
You're not totally factually correct but that's another story.
So what are the true facts? I posted my observations.
As I've said, the transverse cabs can be undone if necessary.
I know. (Nice feature.)
In a case where a train has to be evacuated, the end doors can be unlocked on a 75' car. Fire, smoke, collision, derailment, etc. can be dealt with.
I know.
In the case of a sick passenger, what good is moving to another car (unless they are puking their guts out and you want to move away)? The train won't go any faster even if you alert the crew. Yes, you might be able to get a medical response a tad quicker but likely not significantly.
That depends. If the train is on a long express run or is stuck between stations, if I could reach the crew I could have medical help waiting at the next station as soon as the train arrived. And alerting the crew can make the train reach a station faster, in some cases. The crew could ask the tower to let their train go first at merges. Perhaps there's a switch to the local track that would allow me to avoid a long express run. Perhaps something's wrong and trains aren't moving at all, but the train could key by a red signal and get at least one door up to a platform or someone could accompany me up the track to a nearby station.
Maybe getting into the next car would be sufficient. We've all been on hot cars on occasion. If the train is stuck between stations and I'm suffering from the heat, all I need is the ability to move into a cooler car and I'll be fine.
In the case where you were being physically threatened, what makes you think the perp would just let you get up and leave.
Maybe he wouldn't but maybe he would. I'd rather at least have the option of trying to get away before being killed on the spot.
Now let me tell you something that you will likely never need to know. The end door glass on all 75' cars is NOT glass. Lean against it! Push on it! It's a thick polycarbonate. It can flex enough to be pushed out in an emergency. Once out, you can reach the emergency unlock switch and open the door.
I hope I never need to use this. Frankly, I'm not terribly strong; I don't know if I'd be able to push it out (I've never had the chance to try). Certainly, if someone's coming at me with a knife, I doubt I'd get it out in time. But it is better than nothing.
As for you being apprehensive, what ultimately happened? I assume nothing? I assume your "Fight or Flight" response mode was just working overtime. Get yourself some pepper spray and relax a little.
Oh, nothing happened. I wasn't going nuts or anything; I just would have preferred to not be locked up alone for an indefinite period of time. (No announcements were made. I had no idea what was going on or how much longer we'd be there.)
Adreneline my friend. That's your best friend in those type of situations. You'll have strength you never knew. I've been locked up on an F Train like that before. It was before Coney Island and it was to "keep the train warm". I was locked up with a sleeping passenger who looked homeless with head down but wasn't when he woke up.
Didn't know about the absence of the electric door releases on the R-62 series cars. So then I would assume based on what you've said we looking at a 5-1-1-1-1-1-1 arrangement with the R-62As when they move over to the Flushing Line, with at least the head end single being modified to have a transverse cab.
If for some reason eveny sixth single wasn't modified or if for some reason a modified single at the T/O position had to be quickly replaced with an unmodified one, then there would still likely be a railfan window in at least one direction on the No. 7 train in the future.
If that's the case, there could be celebrations in the streets of Los Angeles tonight :-)
Not necessarilly. There are several possibilities. It is entirely possible that one Transverse cab will be eliminated at one end of every 5 car link. Then you could run 5-1-5 as long as the transverse cab was always at the operating end and not at the C/R's position. It's also possible that the transverse cabs will be eliminated altogether. Considering the swinging loads on the #7 line, space is at a premium and should be conserved.
The transverse cabs do have a high chance of elimination for several reasons. One is, of course, the problem with the isolated car. Another is the fact that the line does not run OPTO, and will most likely never run OPTO, and therefore transverse cabs are unneccessary (except to make the C/R's life easier). Third is the amount of political complaint about the elimination of railfan windows on the line that is most famous for it's view of the NY skyline from said window.
Isn't space a premium on just about all of the IRT lines? The transverse cabs are only really needed on the 5 OPTO shuttle (and even there, a camera/monitor system would do a better job, although, granted, it would be more expensive to implement reliably).
Is there some way to remove a cab entirely? A typical ten-car train has 16 cabs that could never possibly be used. (If there is, the provision isn't as obvious as the wall that folds out to make a transverse cab. It would be nice, though.)
All the R62's and R62A's (and the R68 and R68a's for that matter) were ment to be run as singles, given the idea that either cab would be used at some date.
Sounds like having the transverse cabs only at the T/O position would be the most logical set-up, though it would seem to make the most sense on the No. 1 train as well, but they haven't done it, much to the anger of new South Ferry-bound passengers who aren't paying attention to the annoucements :-)
I've seen a C/R on the 1 Line with both his cab doors locked to the side panels allowing for free movement between the 5th and 6th car, thus, the whole train.
I thought that's what they were required to do at Rector.
I rode the 1 down to Rector last week, for the first time since the transverse cabs were installed (er, unfolded). (I'll be going back today, assuming the proper paperwork comes in the mail and I'll actually be able to accomplish something at the DMV.) The C/R announced a few times that passengers for South Ferry should move to the fron five cars but didn't fold up the cab and didn't indicate in any way which cars were the first five. (Most people don't count cars before they board. Can the C/R flash the lights in only the cars behind him? That would be a good way to indicate to passengers that they're in the wrong place.)
That's the way it should be, but the few times I've taken the 1 down to SF the past few years, it hasn't been like that and those in the rear cars at Rector either do a platform move or earn a round-trip, all expense paid trip to Rector.
Can we assume that the TA will continue operating 11 car trains?
The TO's and conductors on this board would know. Is it plausible that MTA could introduce a 10 car train to the Flushing line (of course, that would be a disaster for crowding). More frequent service would be needed.
This is one place where Stephen Baumann's yelling about the need for single cars would hold much merit...
There was a plan at one point to run 10-car #7 trains. Needless to say, that was before the ridership increases of the past four or so years.
David
Don't forget, for the past few years, they've ran 10 cars during the summer months.
I cant believe I actually saw this car there. Im still in shock. I saw this car at about 5 PM.
Yup I saw it from the 7 today.
The R-62As have railfan windows sort of but the view out of them leaves something to be desired. Before they went over to the full width cabs these cars had decent railfan windows. The thrill of riding the "7" line will be diminished a little with the R-62As with the poor excuses for railfan windows.
BMTJeff
There goes the last 100% redbird yard!
Well, we now have enough to assume two things: One, the first R-62A #7 train will probably have eleven cars. Two, they probably will not be making 6 car sets as that would have been done before it got there. The trains will likely consist of two five car sets with one single.
It all starts with one R-62A. Then like magic, they will multiply sending the darlings of the World's Fair to relocate to a Delaware ocean view !!
Ohhhhh... the Flushing Express won't be the same without railfan windows......sigh !
Bill "Newkirk"
But you have to admit, those R-62As can move!!
But at least the fish and the coral won't need a Metrocard. :0)
When the R62A's arrive on the 7, I hear that the 7 Express will be renamed the 11 Line. How true is this?
R36#9543Gary
It may be true. Escpecially if the redbirds don't have an 11 which is what may have been keeping them back from doing so (intergrating the 11). I think there'd be less confusion at Queensboro Plaza and Main Street.
I highly doubt it.
For one thing, the line won't switch from Redbird to R-62A overnight. During the transition, do you really want the same line to have two different numbers depending on the color of the cars?
For another, the expresses in one direction return as locals. If the crew has to crank the signs in all the cars at each end of the trip, you'd be better off taking the local.
Oh, and why confuse everyone with a totally gratuitous change? Just look at the signs and listen to the announcements.
Please!!!!! I work the 7 line many times. I can say the annoucements as loud and as many times as I want and people still ask if the train is express or local. One time I was stuck at QBP for 5 minutes with people holding doors and asking if it was express or not. Same thing with the 1/9 skip stop and rush hour 5 Bronx express. BTW, Some R62a's have a diamond 7 and others just have the 11.
Please!!!!! I work the 7 line many times. I can say the annoucements as loud and as many times as I want and people still ask if the train is express or local.
Were the signs set correctly? (Often they're not. And the WF Redbirds don't have knobs on the signs, so that's no excuse.)
Same thing with the 1/9 skip stop and rush hour 5 Bronx express.
The 1/9 is a problem because there's no way to tell if a 1 is making all stops or not without memorizing the skip-stop schedule. (And all-stop 1's are often signed as 9's -- that doesn't help, either.)
BTW, Some R62a's have a diamond 7 and others just have the 11.
The ones without the diamond should be used only on the local, then.
Yes, the signs are set correctly on the 7 Line Redbirds. There are platform C/R's at Main Street whose job is to set the correct signage so thats no excuse. People think they can magaically make the train go express or local if they ask one by one. Cmon, there are C/R's who dont make proper annoucements, but there are also passengers who dont listen to annoucements as well. When they get off at the wrong stop, they get mad at you. Its their fault for not listening. Dont get me started on passengers not reading the red and white GO notices in the stations............
Only ONE of them though?
It might just be there so crews can get familiar with them... though obviously more will follow.
Does anyone think it is possible they will try to run it in a redbird train to make a completely air conditioned 11-car train? I know the couplers are the same, but I wonder if they can run together.
Not a chance. The R36 cars still have their original three row electric portions, while the newer cars have 4 rows. They can be transferred, but not M.U.d in service for passengers.
Please be advised that the 3 line is getting Pelham Cars. Cars#1871-75 was spotted on the 3 this weekend. That makes 30 cars from Pelham on the 3 line that I have seen.(1871-1900).
OK an annoying thing happens when I get to Flushing in the morning. Lately I get down there signs by the stairs down to the platform say "express" so I go to that one only to find the express is on another platform, and by the time I get there the doors close. But today, the train closed it's doors and SAT there for two minutes because the T/O didn't get a line-up. Does the C/R open the doors? No! Nonetheless passengers are peeved. So I have to wait 10 minutes for the next express. Often in the morning the tower is a mess, and trains get delayed and there's often 10 or 15 minutes between trains leaving Flushing in the AM rush.
So the next train comes in and the doors close on our express, again, no line-up. The T/O mutters "where's the damn line-up". They let a train in first, then we depart. And passengers waiting outside the train looked peeved while we sat there with doors closed. I wonder how many times people see this and are temped to board in between cars.
While on the express abit after 9:30am we left Queensboro plaza and saw a Flushing bound 7 train that appeared to be stuck entering the station. We saw trains held at 45th, Hunterspoint, and one also at Grand Central (holding lights). looked like a real mess.
Then in the afternoon around 3pm I saw an Astoria bound N waiting with a red at Lexington, there was another train ahead of it in the tunnel but it didn't appear to be moving.
Looks like two BIE's that I saw, but it was a pretty good day since I wasn't involved or stuck behind them.
yo bro at Main st. if the c/r opens up he wont get them closed again.
Thats why we are told if the bell goes off close down give 2 then wait ,thats it ,another train leaves in 2 minutes.Thats right 2 minute headways on the 7.
Problem is another train does not come in two minutes. Lately I've been waiting 5 minutes or more for another train (any train).
I'm not blaming the C/R's, they are just doing their job. It's the tower that has most of the blame, they seem to be slow in giving line-ups and are very unorganized. They do seem to be doing signal work in the area, hopefully with the new system the line-ups will come quicker. This problem has only happened since this beginning of this year, maybe it has to do with the work they are doing around there.
After hanging out in the Canal street bridge station after about 15 minutes I saw one of the school cars go through. It was a four car train of R68's with the front sign reading "not in service" the side signs were sortof blank through you could make out an upside down diamond Q (yellow) in some of them. Also rode on the N line to 8th ave from Canal both ways. Going I had an R32 with a motorman training.
I learned a new term today. The two small lights on the signal before a river crossing (usually white if no problem) are referred to as "cat eyes" from what I heard. After the last homeball out of Whitehall (went in on the middle) the Montague tubes aren't bad as the instructor says to "wrap it". We had to run express on the local on 4th ave because of the school car at Pacific.
Going back I had a Slant R40 N train, which didn't make much headway in front of the R, since there seemed to be delays around 36th street even though this time it was on the express track.
I've always noticed those "cat eye" signals near river crossings, usually at the last station before one. I wonder why the TA uses them.
Before the advent of full-time radio communication between trains and dispatchers, the "cat's eye" signals were used to signal operators to changes in orders. White means proceed as planned, red means contact dispatcher. They're at the beginning of tunnels and river crossings because the train used to be out of contact at these times.
Dan
Those signals are called "Train Order Signals" or "Cat's Eyes" since that's how they look when you look at them.
If activated, the signal will turn red and a box will illuminate. Inside the box will read "Call Control 4111". The four numbers will vary by division.
Also, the stop arm associated with the signal will automatically come up tripping any train that comes upon it, or is currently on the circuit (the stop arm will come up underneath the train, tripping it).
These signals are rarely used.
I've never had an experience where the "cat's eye" signals are used. Not yet anyway. Thanks I've always wondered what those signals meant. In the Peter Dougherty track guide I have it has them under older signals that will eventually be phased out. There is one at 63/Lex Queens bound though, and that section is fairly new.
Interesting that you would post the number for the IRT Desk.
Well there is a smidge of the IRT still in me. I still call the middle track M track instead of 3/4 track. That's about it though.
Those four car R68 school cars are for the Manhattan Bridge Qualification courses. I had mine today at the spritely assigned time of 4:25 am (yawn). I tell ya, there's nothing like waking up at 3:05 am to go to work.
Or waking up around 2 AM to report/post at Stillwell today (452 AM on the Q) and yesterday (437 AM on the B). I live in Queens - I drove and parked at Tower B in the Coney Island Yards. DEFINITELY a new experience for this newbie T/O!
Well now you know what to expect for the next 1 1/2 to 2 years of your life.
But at least you did your job and that was it.
I reported to Pacific Street at 4:25 am, qualified for a little over an hour, THEN I had to go to PAE to start my E job at 7 am. So my day lasted from 4:25 am to 4:25 pm. Not a swell thing to do on limited sleep.
Did you get the $$$ for the twelve hour workday, or did the TA screw you over?
Or oversleeping (set radio alarm, but forgot to turn uo volume) until 2:45 and rushing for a 4:19 report at 179, and finding myself in a dead end in Maspeth with nothing running, and having to walk the rest of the way down Grand Av. to Queens Blvd. at 3:30 AM. (Mon.) Wonder if you'll have to do that whenever you report to MET.
Nope, Eric...not at all. : - )
I'll probably take 2 buses (Q83, Q54) for my 5:41 AM report on Monday.
I spotted this thing (4 car R68 with screwy signs) far, far north - at 34th street herald sq. It was turning back south just north of the station. Are they requalifying crews on the Bway express tracks up to 34th as part of the manhattan bridge thing????
Why would they need to? Until a week or two ago, the N/R was running express in Manhattan, first northbound, then southbound.
42nd Street is the first spot where they can turn the qualification trains back south.
Traveling CI-bound early this afternoon, I noticed a few (probably four) R-32s on the express track, lights out. There was equipment inside but I couldn't identify it before we passed and the destination sign read "X." The paneling around the destination sign was akin to that of an R-38, not an R-32. I saw them pretty far south on the line, possibly around Kings Highway.
What are these trains and what are they doing there?
Dan
Also saw R68's and 32's layed up on the express tracks on Broadway between 42 and 57th. And an R42 Not in Service pulling northbound out of Canal.
Those are the R32GEs being used for fliming the movie "Men In Black 2"
What does the "GE" designation stand for?
Ot's my understanding (if I'm wrong, any TA employees feel free to correct me, but be nice about it, OK?) that 10 R32s were rehabed by GE, unlike the rest that were rehabed by Morrison-Knudsen.
The 10 GE rehabs were made very similar to R38s, and I often saw them, as recently as last year, hooked up to actual R38s. Almsot always, they ran on the "A".
In May '01, I saw, for the first time to my knowledge, on a sunday afternoon, an "A" made of up ordinary R32s.
MOVIE, I was there today by church avenue, I live noot too far from there, I wanted to go into the tunnel and walk into church ave yard, but too many people on plat, i was disappointed , i really wanted to see what wasgoing on there.
Walk into the IND tunnel into those lower level yards???
Geez you have a big pair. At least wear a reflective vest and carry a lamp, those lower level turnouts still see occasional service!!!!
I've seen them marked "X" on the front when rolling out of service...
I am 100% sure of what I saw today. While waiting at Canal for a Brooklyn bound N I saw an R42 displaying a white "not in service" front sign pull northbound out of the City Hall storage area. Wonder what the heck it was doing there? Never seen an 42 on Broadway before.
It appeared to be full length, so it wasn't a school car.
Ummm...it could very well have been a school car. So long as cars are available, school cars practicing on the road are full-length.
Hey dude, about a year ago, I recall seeing R-40m-42 cars running on a few "N" trains on Broadway, or perhaps they were borrowed cars from the "J" line during the last Willy B. reconstruction--BUT I DID SEE AND RIDE THEM. During the '70's, R-40m and R-42's were not uncommon on the occassional "QB", "N" (esp in the mid-70's), and more commonly on the "RR". That was a relief, especially in the Summer since at that time, the R27-30's and the R-32-38's were not air-conditioned!!
Tony
Right you are. There were even several mixed consists of R-32's, 40m's and 42's running on the N at that time. The bad thing about it was that they did not send any of the M&K 42's over to the south at this time. Only those crapcans that were rebuilt in Coney Island Shops. The cab windows on those things are murder, I wonder if anything was done to correct that since? I havent worked the East in years, maybe someone in the know can shed some light on this.
Except for the rush hour "M" trains, the last time that I can recall the R-40m's or R-42's in regular service on the Southern BMT was before the first MannyB fiasco about 1985 on the "D", "B", "RR", "M" Brighton and a lingering "QB"leaving Canal St. Then, the "D" Concourse short line of the '80's was full of them. After that, it's basically been on the Eastern Division BMT that the cars run. I guess the Southern Division wanted to sport the R-46's and 68-110's for modern purposes (I would say speed, but why bother!!). I knida miss the 40m's-42's on the "F", but they ran there so infrequently during the mid-70's. The "F" needs some variety!! Iwonder where the R-40m's and 42's will go when the new R-143's go to the eastern Division?? To the "C" ?? Tony
Yeah, I remember R42s or R40Ms on the "N" during the Williamsburg Bridge closure of 1999.
In May one morning, I saw a salnt R40 on the "J" at Broad Street. Since I never saw that again (tho haven't been on the J, M, or Z in a few weeks) I presume it was a loaner, from the "L", perhaps?
I remember riding on an (N) train that was a mixed consist of R32's and R42's! That was when the Willy B was closed.
That must have been a funny looking train!!
Yes. It was weird to walk from an R42 to the next car, discovering that it's an R32!
When the R-42s first entered service, they were distributed throughout the IND and BMT divisions, even intermixed with older SMEE cars in the same train. I remember seeing R-32s and R-42s coupled together on D trains, and it drove me nuts. That was the short-lived era of smorgasbord trains on the B division. Then in July of 1971, I rode on a solid R-42 N train from Manhattan to Coney Island. It SMOKED along Broadway and 4th Ave.; local stops were blurs and the ones between DeKalb and 36th St. looked like strobe lights.
Best mixI remember was the R/11 and pre GOH r/32 on the Franklin Shuttle. a 2for 1 mix.
avid
I miss the mixes on the 1,2,3,and 5 lines of R-12 and 14's with all of the other post-war IRT cars running together in a single train!!
They sure stuck out like sore thumbs, didn't they?
I remember seeing on the B line R-27,R-32 and R-42 on one train. That was a strange sight. I loved those days when there was variety on my Westend line.The Graffiti i did'nt like I thought it ruined the appearance of the Subway cars. I was between 10 to 15years old then in those times.
Sometimes, an occasional (M) train (or a train using cars from that line) run, not in service, up to Astoria. I've seen a couple of these, and I rode one up the Broadway express to Times Square back in 1998.
For anyone who remembers going over the Manhattan Bridge on the Broadway side, I can tell you one thing, not much has changed.
The signals are the same, but there is new railing along the tracks. Otherwise, very non descript and a non-event. Timers are set all the way northbound up until 2/3rds of the way into Canal Street. The station renovation however looks nice.
Sorry if this post isn't too exciting. The newbies should get quite a kick out of it though.
I wonder how many people on this board have never ridden on a BMT Broadway Express via the Manhattan Bridge? You're right - it will certainly be a new experience for them.
QB as well as NX here. :)
N/QB here.
Well, the Walkway on the south side of the bridge is open for the first time in 40+ years. I have never been on the walkway, so that's kind of exciting. Another place to view trains real close.
--Mark
I have never been on the bridge south side. In fact, until I started making railfan trips in 1997 I never even knew trains went over suspension bridges (or it had slipped my mind).
Well I never rode a Broadway express via bridge. I am very much looking forward to it, in fact I want to ride across the south side the first day it opens.
Same here...though i will be taking that ride the first day, as I need to get into work somehow....i think i'll trasfer back to the 6th Avenue at 34th....this is gonna be slightly annoying, but interesting.
Geez, I wish I could ride through on opening day (or before, but that's not all that likely, alas...). I will be out of the country that weekend, so my first-ever ride on the South Side will have to wait until the following day.
I seem to have the knack of missing important dates like that...I missed the E running through 63rd St. for the same reason. (Has there ever been a GO brinning E's through 63rd St. since that first weekend?)
Cheers,
PJ Dougherty
There was one E via 63rd GO after the first weekend. They actually differentiated express and local after Queensbridge, unlike the first time where they threw everyone on the local track.
I did - all through high school.
I rode it during the short period in 1990. Note, I was born in '86... I only remember the upper corner of the R68 side window from my seat. The train very crowded and the train was whining and moving slowly.
The N train was one of my favorite lines to ride years ago. It had every thing to offer a flegling rail fan.R32's mostly in those days for me, and it only ran between 57/7 ave and Coney Island[yes, thats as far as it went for so of you new guys] my first ride[that i can remember]was going to Coney Island on a brandnew R42[a loooong time ago]Now ,the fun has gone away. oh well,one can hope,right?
You're not along Triple Seven. Ever since they made the Sea Beach a local and sent it to Astoria it is been all downhill for it. At one time the #4, now the "N" went from 42nd Street to Coney Island, and in 1957 was moved two stations north to 57th Street. Since I'm 60 and an old timer by most of your standards my frustration as to what has happened to my favorite line knows no bounds. From 1947-1954 riding the Sea Beach was always a great thrill for me-----blasting express through much of Manhattan, chugging over the Manny B, roaring down 4th Avenue, and whooshing through those great mini=tunnels was a joy hard to describe. And when I discuss it I know I'm living in the past. It's been pointed out to me several times.
It's too bad the NX express service didn't work out for one reason or another. A true Sea beach Express would really be soemthing
The NX "didn't work out" because of lack of ridership. From what I understand from posts by Ed Sachs and Paul Matus and others, the longest-lasting Sea Beach Express was part of the route of the Brighton-Franklin Express, that ran from Chambers St. via Dekalb, Sea Beach, via Coney Island, Brighton, to Fulton St.-Franklin Av. Now that was the greatest express NYC ever had!
Yeah,I agree completly. Thats how I feel about the Jamaica line.It hasnt been the same since 1973.
You actually remember a subway ride when you were 4 years old? That's incredible.
Peace,
ANDEE
Hey, I was only a little baby when the graffitti era was coming to a close. And it was a good thing, too: I do remember how slow the trains picked up, how bad the lights were, and how the would - be redbirds were covered wall to wall with all sorts of gang messages.
i remember when they closed the broadway tracks back in 1989.It took NYCDOT approximately 13 years to repair these tracks.What makes them think they can complete the 6 avenue tracks in 3 years?
Structurally, the bridge has been closed one for the north, once for the south and again on the north during the south at specific parts of the day. This final close is probably for removal of asbestos and a new paint job.
I vividly remember riding the portion of the J east of Queens Blvd, and it was closed in 1977, when I was 5.
N's et al on both sides(pre/post Chrystie)
Did you go over the bridge from the Nassau loop? I never did.
"wonder how many people on this board have never ridden on a BMT Broadway Express via the Manhattan Bridge? You're right - it will certainly be a new experience for them."
On the north side, how about A-B and D Types. Brighton, West End and Sea Beach. And also R-27/30s and R-32s afterwards.
Bill "Newkirk"
All the time during the summer, on the way to the beach...
How many recall that shuttle on 6th ave round the mid 80's though? Call me nuts, but i used to love to ride that thing. it was the filthest, graffiti coated piece of train running. I recall one day all the end doors were stuck open, newspapers were flying about, and some of the doors had hand-made signs saying they wouldn't open.. which of course they didn't...
fun AND excitement.
The R was only slightly cleaner... then they did that N/R flip flop and commuting's been pretty dull ever since.
(How many recall that shuttle on 6th ave round the mid 80's though? Call me nuts, but i used to love to ride that thing. it was the filthest, graffiti coated piece of train running. I recall one day all the end doors were stuck open, newspapers were flying about, and some of the doors had hand-made signs saying they wouldn't open.. which of course they didn't...)
You're talking about a bad memory for me. 1986 to 1990 was my first four years in Brooklyn, and I hadn't developed full knowledge of the system or an appreciation for riding it just for the heck of it. It was strictly the F, the A, and the 1/2/3. So I never rode the south side of the bridge.
But I remember the shuttle, though I never rode it. It was the offical homeless hotel, and the stench was overwhelming. That and Broadway-Nassau station were the public toilets of the 1980s.
Memories of the shuttle are one reason I think they would be better off closing Grand Street station than running it again. I only hope they use cars that they expect to be replaced by the R143s.
Why was it so bad?
I dodn't use the system much in the 80s, but I rember a newspaper article (Daily News or Post) describing the terrible condition of the Grand Street shuttle. I made it a point to get a look at one, though I really can't personally remember it being as bad as the papers said. I do suppose, though, since a fellow sub-talker says it was, it was.
What I also remember (and have a map from the era) was that the shuttle ran from 57th to Grand, not just from Bway/Laff. With that in mind, wouldn't it make more sense to run the V to Grand, rather than Second Avenue, at least for the duration of the M/B closure? This saves a shuttle run and a few cars, AND gives Grand St customers a real line, at least in one direction.
As I've posted numerous times here, I agree. I won't repeat my specific ideas in this post, but suffice it to say that it could be done, at reasonable headways, for less than the cost of what the TA actually has planned. The downside? It would require a slight change in operating procedures. That's it.
The Grand Street Shuttle of the '80's was made up of graffittied, dirty, loud, HOT R27-30's. This was before they got their red paint scheme. The shuttle was real hideous, but people rode it I recall most regular users of Grand Street pre-re-construction merely used the Canal St or East Broadway Stations and walked a bit while there was no service from Grand to Brooklyn. Tony
Also, Grand St. was much less important 15 years ago. I remember similiar whining about the lack of direct service to Canal St. from Brooklyn. Which is why I keep saying that people will adjust to whatever service the TA runs.
It was
absolutely awful for any number of reasons. Primary reason was the fact that it was the end of the infamous "deffered maintenance" era and it was one of the few lines left that epitomized the "graffitti era". These 2 elements combined to make a truly shitty train line, in terms of appearance
and service. Whatever was left of the unrehabbed R27/30s saw their last days on this line.
Peace,
ANDEE
I remember the condition of the system in the grafitti days. Are you saying the shuttle wasn't any worse than that, only that the rest of the system had progressed past that stage?
(I remember the condition of the system in the grafitti days. Are you saying the shuttle wasn't any worse than that, only that the rest of the system had progressed past that stage?)
The crack epidemic was peaking, and the institutional framework that now gets many drug addicts, alcoholics, and the mentally ill off the streets were not in place. Neither were the court decisions that allowed the TA to move "residents" out of the system and to prohibit "begging" to capitive audiences. So very screwed up people were everywhere -- in Penn Station, Grand Centarl and the Bus Terminals as well as the subways. One reason the Port Authority fought a subway connection to the airports.
Why the shuttle? It didn't go outside, so it was air conditioned in the summer, heated in the winter, or so I was told. The only people who took it were those who absolutely had to go to Grand Street, and therefore the addicts/mentally ill basically took it over off peak. Aside from rush hours, it was a rolling flophouse.
Why the shuttle? It didn't go outside, so it was air conditioned in the summer, heated in the winter, or so I was told. The only people who took it were those who absolutely had to go to Grand Street, and therefore the addicts/mentally ill basically took it over off peak. Aside from rush hours, it was a rolling flophouse.
Sounds like it was worse than the E train is today!
Imagine the E, squared. No AC, bums peeing whereever, tons of graffiti, tons of filth... They shoulda gave out tetnis shots as you boarded...
The E was pretty bad during winter.
Late nights, it stunk really bad.
I remember an article on the Times telling
how homelesses prefered the E and the R,
with their underground only long runs.
And the Grand St. shuttle...
It was hectic. 4-car set of R27-30,
tagged to the point no one would even call it art.
During the occasional GOs, the Shuttle would
run on the express tracks between 34th and W4th.
A railfan window in a dim lit car was a treat.
you could see the tracks very well.
But no, I don't miss those dirty trains.
It was a shame.
Which may have led to the truncation of the line at nights to W4th St. parallel with the N/R terminal flip of 5/87.
And the 57th St mezzanine was the stationary flophouse. It looked just like a shelter with people sleeping on the floor from wall to wall. It's amazing how they cleaned it up. (Leaves no excuse not to reopen the 33rd St. passage)
The shuttle was actually better than the M train pre mid-1987. Made up mostly of R16's, the M was worse. In fact, when the shuttle first started running in spring 1986, it was typical of most lines, as grafitti and broken cars were commonplace. Anyone remember the condition of the R42's assigned to the northern D line?
>>>Anyone remember the condition of the R42's assigned to the northern D line?
Vividly, Absolute shitboxes.
Peace,
ANDEE
I just think it's a bit comical, looking back at how absolutely miserable that line was. Whenever i thought the R was absolute shit back then, a ride on the 6th av shuttle made me glad for anything better.
I agree: They'd be wise to assign some soon-to-be scrap to that grand st. shuttle, cuz it's definately going to get ugly.
They're supposed to be using a 4 car R-46 unit.
But things have changed a lot since then. Ridership at Grand St is way up, plus the 6th Av. shuttle will go beyond 57th to Lexington, Roosevelt Island and 21st, drawing many more riders, so the problems of the old 6th Av shuttle won't be repeated. The shuttles that ran during all the weekend bridge closings since the last flip weren't anything like that.
It won't be that bad. Times were different in 1986-88. I'm sure the TA will maintain the shuttle as well as other lines.
>>>How many recall that shuttle on 6th ave round the mid 80's though? Call me nuts, but i used to love to ride that thing. it was the filthest, graffiti coated piece of train running. I recall one day all the end doors were stuck open, newspapers were flying about, and some of the doors had hand-made signs saying they wouldn't open.. which of course they didn't...<<<
YOU are absolutely correct....I remember that piece of shit well...I remember riding it one time and all the lights in the car were out well...the cab door was flopping open at the end of the car and I looked inside and sure enough, the only problem was that the breaker was off. I turned it back on and all the lights in the car went on. I was applauded by MOST of the car except for this one homeless guy (probably the one who turned the lights off) who threatened me and the went back to sleep.....those were the days.
Peace,
ANDEE
Damn... I bet the homeless guy rode the line often enough to know how to shut the lights off... !
Hell, he probably had his own set of cab keys!
Peace,
ANDEE
Yup, I remember it. Flat wheeled R27's, refugees from the Eastern Division based out of ENY, just one step short of the scrapper's torch. Never cleaned either. I once saw newspapers on this train at least a month old. They used to crawl through Broadway Lafayette in both directions on the southbound track. The wait at W4th for the next train to clear Bway/Laf must've been annoying to those bound for Grand St.
All the time during the summer, on the way to the beach...
How many recall that shuttle on 6th ave round the mid 80's though? Call me nuts, but i used to love to ride that thing. it was the filthest, graffiti coated piece of train running. I recall one day all the end doors were stuck open, newspapers were flying about, and some of the doors had hand-made signs saying they wouldn't open.. which of course they didn't...
fun AND excitement.
The R was only slightly cleaner... then they did that N/R flip flop and commuting's been pretty dull ever since.
That used to be the title of my Sea Beach---The Broadway Express. Alas, that is no longer so, and, therefore, I don't give a rat's ass about what is going over the Manny B disguised as the BE since it would be a fraud to begin with.
Well, the West End and Brighton expresses were also considered Broadway expresses. In fact, the original R-27/30 route signs included Broadway as well as the old titles. Thus you had Broadway-Brighton for the Q, Broadway-West End for the T, and Broadway-Sea Beach for the N.
I've lived in NYC virtually all my life. I don't think I've yet ridden accross the sotuh side M/B tracks. Hopefully, I'll get myself on an R32 or other car with a RF window once the line's open. And yes, I really like the green tilework in the Bridge line station. It's nice that that color is unique to that portion of the Canal St complex.
You want green at Canal? Go upstairs to the northbound J/M/Z platform. (What were they thinking?)
I checked out the J/M/Z platform on Tuesday, with just this (the color scheme) in mind. It has green along the mosaic band, but NOT along the floor, as does the soon to be Q/W platforms.
The paint! The paint on the columns! How could you miss it? It's gruesome! It's even worse than the color officially known as Lex IRT Northbound Platform Extension Green!
Go go R40!!!
I have - both north (1965, 1967) and south sides (post-Chrystie St.).
Old Fart 8-))
ITOTKO
Peace,
ANDEE
Rode it back in the 80s when they had the split D service.
I'm 45 and have never rode that route. Bronx boy, what can I say?
Peace,
ANDEE
I remember riding both sides, right after the opening of Chrystie Street. I had hopes for the Second Ave line, too, but we all know where that went.
For those who may not remember, the north tracks led to B'way, and the south tracks led to Nassau Loop.
This info was, of course, prior to 11/26/67.
One of the original copies of the Declaration of Independence (the one found behind a painting and then privately sold) is makeing a cross country tour and today it made the trip from DC to Philly via first class on ACELA Express. I saw the story on Channel 6 Action News. The reporter was interviewing the guy while they were riding the train in the first class car. Tomorrow the copy will be used in a celebrity reading in front of the art museum in Philly.
I saw an Acela train going across Hell Gate this morning. First time I've seen one in action.
Hi folks! Too bad I've been away so long.
I'm getting back east for a brief trip but I do get to ride amtrak from New York to Albany - yay! So I am wondering what the status is of turboliners on this route. If i recall correctly, there is one set in service on the line. Is this so? If so, does it typically make a certain run? My travel plans are not very flexible but if a small adjustment would allow me to take that trainset, i certainly would!
Thanks very much -
David
They shoud use Talgo train cars insted.
NO! Those cars suck. They are way to cramped and small. Send them back to Europe with the rest of the Eurotrash. Maybe if there's enough demand someone could revive Pullman.
Sorry Mike. Pullman's a relic from the days of caveman engineering. Nobody builds railcars like that today because no RR in their right mind would buy such poor performing, overweight, overpriced cars. 100 years ago, nobody understood fatigue, endurance limits, the effects of welds on material strength, the effects of surface finish, stress cocentrators, truck dynamics, envronmental effects, suspension design, etc etc etc. Today, we know about that stuff, and we can design better, lighter, and yes, safer, railcars.
Years ago, things were overbuilt because nobody understood why things broke. Or seemingly overbuilt. The Comet airliner is a classic case study in fatigue, but what most people never realize is that DeHaviland not only built it to withstand the pressure differentials that the British aviation authorities required, but went quite a bit beyond them. In terms of busting strength, it was massively overengineered, yet the planes were breaking apart at an alarming rate. It really wasn't until those crashes that fatigue became more of a consideration. Ever wonder why airplane windows don't have square edges? ever wonder why recent railcars don't, either?
Today, we can build a much better railcar than we could have 50 years ago, and there's no reason not to.
I certainly think we can do better today than in the past. But Pullman's R-46 was a very respectable subway car and owed most of its early teething problems to Rockwell's badly designed lightweight trucks.With conventional trucks, the cars worked a lot better. The cars today are well-liked by passengers and are likely to continue soldiering on for a while.(notice I said passengers, not tech-nerd Subfans :-)).
Still, Pullman (or whatever controls Pullman's assets today) is gone from passenger railcars.
"Still, Pullman (or whatever controls Pullman's assets today) is gone from passenger railcars" Bombardier owns the designs for both Budd and Pullman passenger cars. try buying documentation from them, they will sock it to you, The U.S. Government should make them divest those designs (Free Market fools SHUT UP havent your half-baked economic thoeries that won't work outside the classroom done enough damage.)
My main complaint is with size (altough safety is usually nice too). Sure you can make a train lightweight by making it the size of a sardine can or making it out of cardboard, but that sucks. I don't want to pay good money to ride in the rail equivalent of a Geo Metro. At that point I might as well drive my SUV (SUV purchase pending). My contention is that the one of the best way for trains to compete is to provide a palace on wheels. If I'm going to get stuffed into a gym locker I might as well fly.
It really wasn't until those crashes that fatigue became more of a consideration.
Isn't fatigue a metal problem? Maybe DeHavland should have bought some ALCOA stuff. Russians also do great work in metalurgy.
Ever wonder why airplane windows don't have square edges? ever wonder why recent railcars don't, either?
Sort of. With railcars won't it just not matter due to the low forces involved?
effects of welds on material strength,
Is that a plug for rivets?
Anyway overengineering does have its benifits. Look at bridges and other stuff built from 1900->1950. Most of that stuff is atom-bomb proof.
*/Isn't fatigue a metal problem? Maybe DeHavland should have bought some ALCOA stuff. Russians also do great work in metalurgy. */
NO. It's both a materials AND a design issue. The Russians also have large reserves of fatigue resistant titanium. Anyway, even the best materials can crack and break if used in the wrong application.
/*Sort of. With railcars won't it just not matter due to the low forces involved? */
No. Remember, railcar bodies twist and flex too. At least some of the forces will be carried by the skin on the outside, and if you have sharp corners, you get a stress concentrator. The stresses go up greatly there. And cracks form. By rounding the corners, you reduce the stress concentration, and you won't get cracks. Play around with plates with windows in the in ANSYS if you don't believe me :)
/*Is that a plug for rivets? */
Yes/no. Welds aren't a Bad Thing (tm), but they're much less predictable than rivets. With rivets, the effects of the hole, etc are more predictable. Welds are pretty variable. They can change the heat treat on the metal, cause an undesireable heat treat, cause weird stresses, etc, etc.
Remember, railcar bodies twist and flex too. At least some of the forces will be carried by the skin on the outside, and if you have sharp corners, you get a stress concentrator.
I thought the whole point of railcar design was to make as much of the force as possible be carried by internal framing and not the carbody. Anywho, the only railcars I know w/ square windows are the ML Redbirds, RDC Budd cars and 5700 class ex NYC ACMU's. Can you comment on the duribility of their structures as compared to round window cars? Does the fatiegue resistance outweigh the added cost of rounded windows?
Are there Talgos that can load at high-level platforms? (The ones in use on the Cascades route can't.)
Anyway, the Turboliners are already around and owned by the NYSDOT, with funds for rebuilding. No immediate reason to go out and buy more trainsets.
Give them a call at 800-872-7245 and ask. I know there's one run on Fridays northbound and a morning run southbound. Since you're only going as far north as Rensselaer (ALB) you'll see it more often than if you were going west of here.
The only trips I know of arrive at NYP at around 2:30 PM and leave at 4:30 PM (don't know the exact times, they keep changing them, you can figure it out from the schedule).
Amtrak backed away from commiting the money to upgrade the track to Albany ... so we'll have to see what the Governor does about it now,
i.e. he came up with the money to fix up the turbos.
Mr t__:^)
No budget so far, tax receipts WAY down ... I'd say the gov isn't in much of a position to do anything at the moment other than personal fundraising. We're QUITE nervous up here about it all given that the route of the pointless arrow is ALL we've got ... Rensselaer's also cut off since there are track moves yet to be done and that ain't been funded either.
lol i do like the Redbirds on the 7 line, seeing a R62A on the 7 would be great. And Railfan Windows aren't a problem if u know some Motormen on the 7. I know Motormen on the 6 and F who let me see in there or Ride in there, so.....
And besides Maybe the R62A's will look Good on the 7. Plus the 7 is my Favorite A Division line
TODAY!
The BHRA finally got car #70 to actually run. It ran a couple hundred feet forward and then back on the track, without anything exploding, or blowing any fuses. It was spectacular, seeing this thing finally work, considering that it is over 50 years old, and had beeen sitting unused for a while. But trolley will return to the streets of Brooklyn soon enough.....
COOL! The beauty of those things, aside from the various components weighing PLENTY, is that they were elegantly simple once the contacts get cleaned up and the stray dirt paths to ground are eliminated. Glad to hear one of them has come back from beyond the grave!
There's some NJT guys in Newark who know them pretty well ...
PCC equipment doesn't weigh very much at all. I do have to agree that they are very elegantly designed in both their mechanical systems and the body design. PCCs are also the hotrods of streetcars - fast acceleration and fast braking (ever been on one in emergency?) with lightweight construction, you can really zip which is always fun to do in summer with the windows opened all the way.
In fact, I'm beginning to get anxious to go on the PCC fan trip taking place this Sunday... Here's hoping that the track construction on The Queensway is in progress on Sunday so we don't have to get dragged out all the way on the obligitory Doyle Laaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaawwwwwwwnnnng Braaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaynch (Long Branch) run because Long Branch takes a LONG time.
-Robert King
For those of you who want to know when the last PCC ran in regular, revenue service - last day was Oct 31, 1956, on the B35 Church Ave. and the B50 McDonald Ave. routes. A third line that also used PCCs, B68 Coney Island Ave., was converted to bus in Nov. 1955.
It takes 7-8 minutes for trains to cross the bridge, right? That's 8 minutes the MTA has a captive audience, and 100% of the people on board will be affected. How about preparing 8 minute long speaches for conductors to administer while trains cross the bridge? Have specific speeches for whatever line / direction you're on, for example if the train is a D travelling from Manhattan to Brooklyn give very specific information on what changes were to occur for customers travelling on that line in that direction.
What do you think?
Or perhaps in deference to standards elsewhere when people are travelling in a tube above ground, a modification of duty ... in between working the timers:
"Ladies and gentlemen, welcome aboard the Q Broadway Express, the no smoking lights have been extinquished ... we'll be reaching a cruising altitude of 135 feet. If you look out the windows on the left side of the cabin, you'll see the famous Brooklyn Bridge, opened in 1883 and down below, the East River. For those of you on the right side of the car, if you look far to the other side of the bridge, you'll note the Williamsburg bridge in the distance. We will now be beginning our descent into Manhattan ... yada yada ..."
If only the cars were equipped with full color displays, 8 minutes would also be sufficient time to run a short film or cartoon.
He could punctuate that with, "Prior to 1967, the track we are on now was tied into the Nassau Loop, and our next stop would have been Chambers St."
Maybe they could just repeat the same few sentences in a few dozen languages? even then I bet you'll have plenty of confused people.
...and that's what i like about hitching a ride on anything through 63rd street tube on the weekends - if you're coming from 36st into 21st, you'll have at least 3 or 4 people per car run over to a map with a look of mixed confusion and horror on their faces, despite the announcements on where the train is going. I need to bring my camera along and catch some of their facial expressions. you'd think after that line being somewhat open the last few months peope whould ahve at least a vague clue what was up...
bottom line: people are idiots, bring on the chaos!
Us railfans are going to be GODS come July 22nd. Prepare to dispense knowledge!
Dan
For a nominal fee, i might. =)
Ya, we should make t-shirts that say, in 5 languages, "I don't work for the MTA, but for $3 I'll help you get to where you're going."
Personally I think that is a good idea.As far as the reroutes go I think they are stupid. Instead of two 6 avenue shuttles just send the B train to 2 avenue and the D train to Grand street. That would be less confusing than two shuttles in addition to B/D split services
Switch the B and D and you have a plan. The B will have less TPH than the D. I think the B becomes 6 TPH and the D becomes 8 TPH, or something close to that.
Was the A train going to be rerouted to Brighton? What was going to 8th ave express, and would it still be the Fulton st line. im kind of fuzzy about it so can someone please explain it.
From the press release accompanying 1991 SERVICE CAPACITY PLAN, issued by NYC Transit:
Routes: A,B,C,D,Q
Lines: Central Park West, Concourse, Washington Heights, 63rd Street
Time: Weekdays, Saturdays and Sundays
Proposal:
Central Park West service would be reduced from four routes to three on weekdays and three to two routes on weekends. Express service would be provided by the "Q" from 207th Street to the 6th Avenue line and the "D" from 205th Stret to 6th Avenue. Local service would be provided by the 8th Avenue "A" from 168th Street to Euclid Avenue. the "A" woudl be extended to 207th Street evenings, nights, and weekends when the "Q" does not operate. The "B" would replace the "Q" to 21st Street/Queensbridge. The "D" would provide local service in the Bronx at all times.
Routes: A,C,H
Line: 8th Avenue/Fulton Street/Rockaways
Time: Weekdays, Saturdays and Sundays
Proposal:
In conjunction with the changes in Central Park West service, during rush hours, the "H" would provide three-way split service from Lefferts Boulevard, Far Rockaway and Rockaway Park to the FUlton Stret and 8th Aveneu express lines to 34th Street/8th avenue, replacing "A" express sericde and "C" service to Rockaway Park. The Rockaway Park "H" would operate every 20 minutes, with published timetables available. During non-peak periods, the "H" would oprate to Lefferts Boulevard and Far Rockaway, with connecting rail shuttle service between Beach 67th Street and Rockway (sic) Park. The "A" would provide 8th Avenue and Fulton Street local service to Euclid Avenue. During night hours, the "A" would operate from Far Rockaway via Fulton Street and 8th Avenue local lines to 207th Street. Rail shuttle service would be provided between Rockaway Boulevard and Lefferts Boulevard, and between Beach 67th Street and Rockaway Park.
--------------------------------------------------
As I recall (and I was in NYCT(A) Customer Services at the time and had to answer literally HUNDREDS of letters on the subject), the chief objection to this service plan came from people in upper Manhattan who were upset that their MAIN SERVICE WAS BEING RELABELED "Q"!!!!! They kept citing the Billy Strayhorn song (performed most famously by Duke Ellington), "Take the 'A' Train." Funny thing is, if NYCT(A) had called the 207th Street-6th Avenue-Brighton service "A" instead of "Q", probably nobody would have said a word and the plan would have gone through unchallenged!
David
Thank you.From what this says,the TA wanted to spilt the A line in half and replace it with the Q train. ok the idea not bad, butto replace the A complety with the Q,get ride of the C altogether and replace that with the A,and make the H the 8th ave express along fulton street to 34th st doesnt make much since to me. They could have ran a 6th ave express from 207th st to Far rockaway by way of the juntion[s] at west 4th st or Jay st. One of the services [Lefferts/Far-roc/Roc-Park or Euild]could use a difernt letter code such as[H or K or even C],run one through the Rutgers st tunnel and ride shotgun with the F until West 4th st or 59 TH.Like i said the idea was in the right place but the A in Brighton....NAHHHHHH!!! Thanks for the info......
This may be off the beaten track, but . . . last night, for some reason or another, the Brooklyn-bound B train took a detour of sorts. I know – I got on the B at Spring Street and got off at Jay Street-Borough Hall; it was being re-routed to the F Culver route on that occasion.
[As I recall..., the chief objection to this service plan came from people in upper Manhattan who were upset that their MAIN SERVICE WAS BEING RELABELED "Q"!!!!! They kept citing the Billy Strayhorn song (performed most famously by Duke Ellington), "Take the 'A' Train."]
The Q as weekday-only express was one of two main complaints. The second argument was that a particular line in the song - "You'll get to Harlem in a hurry" - was socially (if not legally) binding on Transit, and constituted an obligation to keep the A as an express service. (Naturlly, they wouldn't have minded a Q express in addition to the A express!)
-----
[Funny thing is, if NYCT(A) had called the 207th Street-6th Avenue-Brighton service "A" instead of "Q", probably nobody would have said a word and the plan would have gone through unchallenged!]
Actually, the proposal WAS reworded to that effect in response to the Ellington/Strayhorn complaints: the weekday-only Q express became the A, while the full-time A local became the C. Of course, all of that became water under the Manhattan Bridge anyway.
The R-10s could promise "You'll get to Harlem in a hurry", that's for sure. Today, it's more like, "You'll get to Harlem eventually."
While it's funny that the proposed re-labeling may have killed an otherwise doable plan, it WOULD have been very confusing.
This plan is similar to the routings actually used when an asbestos covered pipe burst somewhere around 42nd or 50th on the A.
Q ran from 207th to Brighton using R38s, the A ran from 34th to queens, E ran down 6th Ave to WTC. 23rd, 42nd and 50th and 8th and 57 & 6th were closed.
while on the nostalgia trip on fathers day a woman took a few pictures of me and my friend and then came up and introduced herself as a ny times employee. she took down our names and said the pictures might be used for an article in the weekend times about the nostalgia trip. i forgot to check these past 2 weekends to see if there was an article about the trip. did anyone see if there was?
thanks,
tim
there was an article on june 29th...
here's a link:
http://www.nytimes.com/2001/06/29/living/29TRAI.html?searchpv=nytToday
pretty good article. my only complaint is that i just wish there were more pictures, not that they would have come out that well since the weather was so crappy that day.
Hey guys - that reporter interviewed ME! 8th paragraph in the first section, and it was a nice surprise!
There was a nice article in the N.Y. Times on Friday, June 29, 2001. The article was by Robert Boynton about the Nostalgia train and the Transit Museum.
Bill "Newkirk"
Anybody know where tomorrow's Queensbridge shuttle will be running? (The Manhattan end, that is.) 34 via BMT? 34 via IND? 57 via BMT? Something else entirely? There's no indication on the GO page.
According to the NYCT July 4th service plan- 34th St. BMT
-Harry
The Other Side Of The Tracks: A Website Devoted To The New York City Subway
Thanks -- as I suspected. R-32's, I take it. I think I'll ride it back and forth tomorrow -- this may be the last Queensbridge-BMT shuttle ever (I know, who cares? -- but why not?).
Did you get this information from some public source that I'm unaware of?
I believe that there is an emergency GO in effect between 10 am and 4 pm where there will be a single track shuttle between Queensbridge and 57/7. After 4 pm, regular shuttle service will resume.
Rats. I read your post too quickly this morning and didn't notice that the shutlte would only run as far south as 57. I enjoy wrong-railing when I have the chance, so I went to the BMT platform at 42 and waited and waited and waited. Eventually I figured out what was happening and took an N to 57, but I think I just missed the shuttle, so after another ten minutes of waiting I continued on an R to Lex and took a (cold!) 4 to Borough Hall in time to meet everyone. Oh well.
No- it was in an internal publication.
-Harry
The Other Side Of The Tracks: A Website Devoted To The New York City Subway
Hello. I lived in Brooklyn over 30 years ago, in Flatbush, and I'm going to be visiting NY in August. Does anyone know how safe it would be for my boyfriend and me to take the D train from the city down to Newkirk Ave. in Brooklyn these days?
Thanks for your advice.
Ellen
No worries mon. Relax an enjoy de ride.
"
wonder how many people on this board have never ridden on a BMT Broadway Express via the Manhattan Bridge? You're right - it will certainly be a new experience for them."
If you're visiting in August, that should be after the Manhattan Bridge flip in which the Brighton and West End regress to pre-Chrysite St.
There should be two services to Newkirk Ave, circle (Q) local and diamond express. The (D)s will only go as far as 34th St and 6th Ave.
Bill "Newkirk"
Your ride on the D train will be absolutely safe, no problems. I'd recommend the Q train, though. You'll get a better express ride.
As for saftey around the station, I don't know that area of Brooklyn.
Dan
You'll be quite safe. Most of Brooklyn is really very good, and the D in particular offers no problems.
Don't forget to visit Coney Island at least once. The Cyclone roller-coaster awaits, and the aquarium has some great exhibits and shows!
Ellen,
The Subway ride and area is quite safe, however you will find the matrix of the people has changed from Jewish/American to Haitian/Jamaican descent. Also many of Pakistani descent around Coney Island/Newkirk/Foster Avenues, but all the the old wonderful mansions and homes along Argyle, Malbourough and Albemarle are still there. :)
Ditto on all points made by my colleagues. When I visited New York in March, I took the Q to Sheepshead Bay. Express at its best. And don't let anyone tell you it is not safe. I have never had any trouble riding the subway. Most of the time I have struck up conversations with people and they have been friendly in return. The only blemish was when I went railfanning on April 1 with some of my buddies on this site, and the motorman on the Sea Beach wouldn't shake hands with me. That was the first time that happened, but I chalked that off to his stupidity. Have a great trip.
As long as you don't dress like a tourist from Iowa, you'll be safe. The area is such a mix you won't otherwise stand out
Iforgot to ask is HOW this car came here from the 3 line and WHY this car is here once again the car # is 2155.
I'm sure it is there to qualify the car equipment workers on how to maintain the R62A. Most of the barn guys know Redbirds and Redbirds only since it is a high seniority facility.
Oh Noooooooo is right. Car #2155 is NOT AT CORONA YARD. That is unless car #2155 has an evil twin. As of now, car #2155 is alive, well, assigned to Livonia and in service on the #3 line. The car you saw is most likely EP012 although I'm at a loss to explain how YOU could confuse those two numbers.
my freind said that the car was there! i did not see it. it probably went back to coney island yard or it is inside the corona yard barn being fixed or somthing. he has 4 pictures of it but he does not have a scanner. i am going to see him today and check out the photos at the boardwalk today, also we are going to check again
Perhaps you didn't understand me. The car (#2155) is in service on the #3 line. It is not in Corona Barn, It did not go back to Coney Island. It is not "or something" anywhere. It is in service.
so why did it come over in the first place? and 1 car only?
I think what "Train Dude" is trying to say is:
R-62A 2155 WAS N-E-V-E-R AT CORONA!!!!!! Whomever claimed to have seen it made a mistake.
David
Although I'm pretty sure I was correct in maintaining that "Train Dude" was trying to say that R-62A 2155 was never in Corona Yard, he subsequently reported that he checked the computer and found that the car WAS in Corona Yard briefly, recently.
David
Before we have an all-out war here, let me explain what happened. When the first posting came out, I called a manager who shall remain nameless at Corona Yd. He reported that there were no R-62As at Corona. I checked the computer and car #2155 was listed as "Revenue Active" @ Livonia Yard - meaning it was in service or available for service. However, because of the adamant stance by the posters who insisted that they had a picture of it, I checked further. The car history indicated that, indeed, car #2155 was briefly out of service in Corona Yard for 'amenities'. I spoke to another manager and he said he heard it was in the yard but they didn't know why. Hmmmmmm.
In fairness - the VacTrak was in my yard today and I didn't know it until I looked at the yard map.
ok so if indeed an r62a car was at corona, why did it leave? why didn't they leave it and bring more so we can start reciving them?
And yesterday I rode on R-1 car #123. The strangest thing was,
it was making up the 11th car on a train on the Flushing line!
It must have been part of a test to see how the TA will deal with
the otherwise intractable problem of transverse cabs. And don't
start arguing with me about platform widths, because I know what
I saw, just like last year when I saw a GG1 filling in for the
R127 garbage motors.
ROTFLMAO
And yesterday I rode on R-1 car #123...
You sure that wasn't Orion V #123? :)
Heh. Musta been a hell of a ride ... how'd you avoid all the splinters coming in the windows as it blew past the stations? (or have they replaced all the platforms with steel yet?) And yeah, Them GG1's are a whole lot easier on the El steel than those pesky redboids. :)
??????? an r-1 ?? dude !!! please give me some info on this please !!
Jiminy Christmas, salamallah, can't you figger out when somebody's pulling your chain?
The R-1's went to the torch long before the Web was let loose from the Gov't and the Universities.
then why did he say he saw a r-1 rollin' on the flushing line ?? ( by the way there is no xmas during the month of july ) lol !!!
OH WAIT A MINUTE ........................ he was only joking ..........geeeeeezzz done in again by the train dude !!!
He is the expert !! not me !!! ( sigh ) ..........oh well ......LOL !!!
Sorry salaam but I can't take credit for the humorous post. The post that you took so seriously came from Jeff H. - who clearly has a keener sense of humor than I do.
And it crossed the Queensboro Bridge, too, right??
--Mark
Happy 225th birthday from Chicago!
Is the bus/A-train still the best public transport way for an enthusiast from JFK to Manhattan please ? Am arriving with the family (including two kids) late afternoon from the UK and staying at East 50th Street - it was a bit dodgy last time I did it late at night but presume ok around 6pm ?. Any info appreciated - I am also a new subscriber who uses the London Underground daily and visited LU's Acton Works large museum store last week so if anyone wants any info from over here let me know !
Yes, that's the best way for a rail enthusiast to get into the city. No, you needn't be concerned about the ride. You'll be fine. But do take some common precautions. Don't flash your money around; keep credit cards out of sight. Those represent common sense on the street and on the subway.
The Port Authority shuttle bus will pick you up from the front of the terminal and take you to the Howard Beach Station. Then you can take the A train in.
If you check the MTA website, www.mta.nyc.ny.us, you may find a bus to LIRR option as well (bus to Jamaica Station, then any Manhattan-bound train from there). But you'll still transfer to a subway to finish your trip. If the bus travels along the Van Wyck Expressway, you'll get a chance to inspect AirTrain up close, though you won't get to ride any of it until next year.
Welcome to New York. I hope your stay will be an enjoyable one.
Actually, there isn't much in the way of TA buses on the VanWyck. Except for one or two rush hour routes, IIRC, they stick to the local streets.
Yes, the ride is just fine. At 6:00, service will be frequent, since it's still rush hour, but you'll be traveling against the flow, so you'll have no trouble getting a seat.
To get to E. 50th Street, transfer across the platform at Jay Street to the F or at 42nd Street to the E, both of which go to 53rd and Lex (the exit at the front of the station leads to 3rd Avenue). (You could transfer at Broadway-Nassau to the 4/5 and at 42nd to the 6, which goes to 51st and Lex, but the first transfer involves climbing stairs.) If you're going further east than 3rd, the 50th Street bus may be more to your liking -- transfer at 42nd to the C/E, go one more stop to 50th, and catch the M27 or M50 bus on 50th Street. As long as you pay for your initial subway ride by MetroCard, the transfer to the bus is free.
[If you're going further east than 3rd, the 50th Street bus may be more to your liking -- transfer at 42nd to the C/E, go one more stop to 50th, and catch the M27 or M50 bus on 50th Street. As long as you pay for your initial subway ride by MetroCard, the transfer to the bus is free. ]
The bus idea would be quite stupid. Not only could you walk faster, they only go to the 2nd Ave, a block away from the 53rd/Lex 3rd Ave exit.
Arti
Hey Arti, try disagreeing without being disagreeable.
He's coming from JFK. There's a chance he has luggage and doesn't want to walk more than necessary. (That's also why I recommended the E/F over the 4/5 to the 6.) 3rd to 2nd is a long block, and don't forget about the three short blocks from 53rd to 50th.
The bus wouldn't be the best choice if you had luggage, I'd say take a cab instead.
Arti
That all depends on how close the bus comes to one's destination. The last three times I used LaGuardia I used the M60/M104 combo, which drops me off across the street from my destination. Why spend tens of dollars on a cab when $1.50 for the bus will suffice?
As I said depends on the luggage. The buses don't have much accomodation for it. Cab from 8th Ave would be few $ and none of those issues would crop up.
[Why spend tens of dollars on a cab when $1.50 for the bus will suffice? ]
Sometimes I tend to believe that my time costs some money.
Arti
"[Why spend tens of dollars on a cab when $1.50 for the bus will suffice? ]
Sometimes I tend to believe that my time costs some money."
Yes. A mass transit ride does not always represent the best use of one's time. Of course, it would be nice if the cab didn't get stuck in the Queens Midtown Tunnel...
In nyc.transit there was a post about Glen Cove ferries, faster than LIRR. IMO an interesting transit alternative.
Arti
We seem to agree: it depends.
All we know is that the original poster asked here about the subway ride. He's gotten a variety of answers. Hopefully he'll take the advice that best fits his situation.
Actually I can't think of any hotels east of Lex, W that is.
Arti
He may be staying with friends or relatives.
Just take a cab.
(Just take a cab.)
I'll second that. And I work for the TA, use mass transit every day and whenever possible, and an enough of an environmentalist that I refuse to have air conditioning in my home. If the Airtrain was running and it was just you, I'd say take the Airtrain to Jamaica and transfer to the E. And rush hour, taking the A and avoiding traffic might make sense.
Midday, with four people, and arriving from overseas with extensive luggage? Take a cab. You can take transit all you like once you've checked into the hotel.
The subway is fine but the airport shuttle bus seems to take ages. It is a long and tiring journey especially for small children after a long flight. Great for us railfans if you get an R32.
Have a good trip
Simon
Swindon UK
Yes, the subway is fine when you are traveling alone, and wheeling a carry-on bag. But this guy is coming over from England sounds like he is going out of his way for a joy ride with what I assume will be heavy luggage.
What's mere luggage to a true and devoted Subfan! :0)
If your destination is E. 50th St, Manhattan.
Take the Q10 bus from JFK to Union Turnpike and
take the E or F to Lex/3rd Aves. It' s much faster.
But the ride from Howard Beach on the A is more interesting.
First take a look at:
http://torontotours.com/scheduledtours/schedule_city.htm
Now there's a choice of two different tours. Which one would you take if you could take one?
-Robert King
>>> Which one would you take if you could take one? <<<
A tough question which needs more information to answer. The trolley tour is going to be more limited, but how much do you want to ride the trolley? Can you ride a PCC trolley in Toronto without taking the tour? If so, I would opt for the bus tour and cheaper trolley riding later.
I have been to Toronto only as a tourist, so I have no direct knowledge of the present tours, but I find in going to a new city, I first take a commercial tour around the city and then return to the interesting places on my own.
Tom
The streetcar can go just about everywhere the bus goes except for Casa Loma - if they were to revise the tour a little bit. Maple Leaf Gardens, Chinatown, University of Toronto, and the College Park could easily be included in the tour at the very end. You can add a few other attractions like the Beach or the Don Jail, but then you're just getting a little too far out of the downtown area.
You can ride a PCC without taking a tour - but only on fan trips; PCC service iteslf ended on Friday, December 8th, 1995. Incidentally, last year when exactly five years passed since the end of PCC revenue service December 8th of 2000 was on a Friday just as it was in 1995. I tried and tried and tried quite a few times to get the Toronto Transportation Society to hold a short PCC fan trip on that evening with the highlight of it being recreating the very last run almost exactly - right down to having the same operator driving the streetcar albeit in a different PCC. Take a wild guess as to what the TTS administration's answer to that proposal was.
-Robert King
If that is the same trolley tour tour that we tried to take several years ago: Aren't reservations recommended?
No, this tour is new as of this summer. I don't know if they take reservations. The people offering it have information on their tours available in hotels - and definately at the Sheraton located at Queen and York as that's one of the pickup points.
-Robert King
I personally cant wait to get rid of the redbirds on the 7,there loud ,leaky,rusty,and most of them do have some serious doormotor problems.Plus when we get transverse cabs My sexlife will improve by a thousand percent.You guys have no idea how hard it is to get a woman in a redbird cab.
"Silverbirds"? Did we just invent a new catchy name? Not bad, really!
Chuck Greene
I'm sure there are some here who will re-dub them "silverfish" in anticipation of their future fate. :)
Selkirk: That's beautiful! -"Silverfish"
Chuck Greene
Heh. Part of upstate living, "Think ahead" ... and we stomp on those fishies all the time. That is when we don't come down to the city to shoot some clams. :)
You shoot clams? Isn't that dangerous? I mean, the clams might get hurt!
Dan
The clams can't be happy ALL the time. Actually, "let's go shoot some clams" is a line from a Barney Miller episode - the one with the brownies where Yamata says "mushi mushi" ... just funnin' for the folks. Somebody's gotta be a cutup here. :)
yes a work car lol !! ( so much for your fish & clams ).....lol !!
If you want to see the real deal, I now have 38 redfins sitting on 26A, 26B and 26C track in Concourse yard, just waiting for their turn to go swimming.
GLUG.....GLUG.....GLUG.....GLUG.....GLUG.....GLUG.....GLUG.....GLUG.....GLUG.....GLUG.....GLUG.....GLUG.....GLUG.....GLUG.....GLUG.....GLUG.....GLUG.....GLUG.....GLUG.....GLUG.....GLUG.....GLUG.....GLUG.....GLUG.....GLUG.....GLUG.....GLUG.....GLUG.....GLUG.....GLUG.....GLUG.....GLUG.....
GLUG.....GLUG.....GLUG.....GLUG.....GLUG.....GLUG.....GLUG.....GLUG.....GLUG.....GLUG.....GLUG.....GLUG.....GLUG.....GLUG.....GLUG.....GLUG.....GLUG.....GLUG.....GLUG.....GLUG.....GLUG.....GLUG.....GLUG.....GLUG.....GLUG.....GLUG.....GLUG.....GLUG.....GLUG.....GLUG.....GLUG.....GLUG.....
GLUG.....GLUG.....GLUG.....GLUG.....GLUG.....GLUG.....GLUG.....GLUG.....GLUG.....GLUG.....GLUG.....GLUG.....GLUG.....GLUG.....GLUG.....GLUG.....GLUG.....GLUG.....GLUG.....GLUG.....GLUG.....GLUG.....GLUG.....GLUG.....GLUG.....GLUG.....GLUG.....GLUG.....GLUG.....GLUG.....GLUG.....GLUG.....
GLUG.....GLUG.....GLUG.....GLUG.....GLUG.....GLUG.....GLUG.....GLUG.....GLUG.....GLUG.....GLUG.....GLUG.....GLUG.....GLUG.....GLUG.....GLUG.....GLUG.....GLUG.....GLUG.....GLUG.....GLUG.....GLUG.....GLUG.....GLUG.....GLUG.....GLUG.....GLUG.....GLUG.....GLUG.....GLUG.....GLUG.....GLUG.....
& pollute the ocean instead of recycling! lol !! ( how bout' that dude ) ???
Why not just take her home? Don't you (and your girlfriends) like bathtubs and beds?
>>> Why not just take her home? <<<
Now you are talking about a long term relationship, I don't think Union Square tells them where he lives.
Tom
12 hours can be a long time...a little longer than the trip across the Manny B...
I suspect that it's not the cab that's the primary factor in your sexlife or the lack of it. If you can pick the 7, you can pick the 4 and have all the transverse cabs you want. It is written that a transverse cab will not change the essence of a man.
True ... but it does CONTAIN it a bit. :)
Hahahaha ... yeah, at least B division had a bit more room and the dropdown bench had enough space for another pair of legs. :)
It's ALL rather easy, chap... you just have
to know....... THE SECRET!!!!
uh yea, trains don't impress girls as much as railfans would like them to.
Yeah, it must be like "come in here and I'll show you my speedometer."
You guys, the women on the 7 are the best because of the different backroounds.I have met Irish ,colombians,mexicans and Korean. And someof them find it a thrill to have a brief sexual encounter on the 7.It happens more than you think on all lines .Rember women see the patch thats say MTA as ATM
Heh. Oh the stories I could tell from my days as a conductor on the D train back in the "hippie chick" days ... alas, this is a family board and nobody really cares anyway. Once I got my promotion and moved up front though, all that stopped. But I got my yayas more often than folks'd believe and it was fun. And no, NEVER on duty - only when deadheading. After all, a trip from Stillwell off duty every evening to 205th was a long haul with nothing to do. Most "customers" at worst only do HALF the ride a crew does ... our former President knows how that all works. Fortunately, he wasn't issued a church key. :)
Or a butt plug.:-) Oops, that's right, he used a cigar.
If the cigar was wired properly, it could do the electric brake. Habana's are JUST the right size. :)
haBanas?
Peace,
ANDEE
You don't go to Montreal often, do ya? That's how the capitol of Cuba is spelled and Cuban cigars are QUITE legal up there - hell, the duty free shops and US Customs let you bring them back too ... you can buy them right AT the border (wink-wink-nudge-nudge) ... hell, while you're waiting for the doggies to go over your chariot, might as well go light up some Cubans. :)
Anybody's sexlife can improve a thousand percent, as long as they never again mention "transverse cabs"
Too bad that guy that wrote "Mallrats" didn't come from NYC - the dialog might go like this:
"I'm gunna screw your ex in a very uncomfortable position"
"where? the cab of a redbird?"
I have ridden those old Redbirds that have dominated the "7" line for years. I would agree with you that they are worn out at this point. I'm sure that you won't miss the manually operated windshield wipers which makes things interesting in sloppy weather. It is also a delight when the lights go out momentarily when the cars go past a gap in the third rail. The only thing that the "Silverbirds" won't solve is the foul odor created by the oil leak somewhere in Manhattan which I believe has permeated all of the cars that are used on the "7" line.
BMTJeff
I wondered if anyone has any idea of the chances of the "N" Sea Beach line returning to the the bridge once (actually "if")all the work is finished?
I'm assuming at that point, the West End W/B train would return to 6th Avenue, so there wouldn't be much Broadway Express service without the N. On the other hand, there wouldn't be much service to City Hall, Cortlandt, Rector, and Whitehall with only the R running. What would then be the chance of the W running local from Astoria to Whitehall, as was, at one time planned (I think)?
The return of the Sea Beach Line (by the letter "N" or any other letter -- not that anyone's contemplating a change) to the Manhattan Bridge has always been part of the post-rehabilitation plan.
As for an Astoria-to-lower-Manhattan local service, well, they've got 3 years or so to think about it...
David
Bull@%&*(#$%^@!!!!!!! I don't ever expect that Sea Beach to get back on the bridge. All indications were that it would get such an assignment up until a year or so ago when the work was almost completed. Then some mastermind at the TA decided that two Brightons and some other new line would do service there while the Sea Beach was stuck in that damn Montague Tunnel. The Sea Beach on the Manhattan Bridge? I am not holding my breath.
At the risk of starting a flame war (which I hope this doesn't):
Decisions about train routings are made by NYC Transit, not by people who live 3,000 miles away and haven't lived here in well over 40 years. At the moment, those decisions are being tempered by capacity issues resulting from the continuing rehabilitation of the Manhattan bridge (by the NYC Department of Transportation via its contractors, NOT by NYC Transit).
Sea Beach via Bridge before 2003 (now 2004 due to delays in the rehabilitation) was NOT in the cards a year ago, two years ago, or even five years ago. If I am wrong, please state an OFFICIAL source for the facts that refute my statement.
David
If you don't want to start a flame war you might try to refrain from bringing this 3,000 miles and 40 years ago into it. People from all over the country have strong emotional attachments to New York's Subway, and for some it's is our most powerful attachment to the city.
For the record, I am not trying to make decisions since it is not in my province to do so, but I have a strong emotional feeling towards my favorite train ( as you and everyone else knows), and I have seen with my own eyes the decrepit look of the stations in Brooklyn and the way the line has been relegated to the scrap heap over the years. So if my pieces bother you, don;t read them. But, get this, I will always be a strong protector of my favorite line and will keep hoping for the day when it is given the respect that it once commanded. If that doesn't pass muster with you, then, as we say out her, tough tacos.
I recognize that "Sea Beach Fred" has a strong emotional attachment to the Sea Beach Line and his youth in New York City. Everyone's entitled to his or her cherished memories, and everyone's entitled to an opinion (and I'm hoping that "Sea Beach Fred" and my other occasional detractors will allow me mine on the rare occasions I choose to express them).
However, that doesn't excuse answering a FACTUAL posting with an expletive (albeit a modified version) and an expression of disbelief. I did not express an opinion; I stated a FACT, and I'll state it here again: It has ALWAYS been in NYCT's plans for Sea Beach service to return to the Manhattan Bridge once the rehabilitation project is completed. And again: if anyone has cold, hard evidence to refute my FACTUAL claim, please present it here and now. I'm not 3,000 miles away from the situation; I work within a few feet of the people who plan subway service and talk to them about it quite frequently.
I bear no ill will toward "Sea Beach Fred" and hope he will take this series of postings in the spirit in which it is intended.
David
I, for one, find the facts on ridership that you posted some time ago extremely interesting, and enjoy reading the other factual material that you have posted. Keep it up, please.
Like #4 Sea Beach Fred, I have my favorites, too. But the subway must be run according to financial considerations. No. 1 on my wish list (no doubt among the other Brighton fans) for the subway is that I hope that ridership increases enough to make financially feasible the restoration of Brighton Express service on weekends.
I agree, weekend brighton express service is necessary. Summer weekends, people have their pick of four long rides to Coney Island. The Brighton express would give people a fast option.
Read the GO announcements! On weekends, there's often express service in one direction on either the B or the N. That's invariably the fastest way to or from Coney Island, unless the train is subsequently held because it's gotten ahead of schedule (as if it takes a rocket scientist to realize that the schedules should be adjusted for GO's).
In one direction. Once I get there, it's a long ride back (or vice versa).
I can think of one wonderful weekend where there was a southbound Brighton express and a northbound Sea Beach express. That was it.
Another weekend had Brighton, (part of the) Culver, and Sea Beach express all in the same direction.
Nobody reads G.O. notices for regular reasons, much less to figure out if there's a faster way to CI.
Nobody reads G.O. notices for regular reasons, much less to figure out if there's a faster way to CI.
We do! (I do, at least.)
And then my plans are thwarted by a red signal at 8th Avenue.
My money's on the following scenario:
B & D: Via 6th Ave express, north side on bridge, West end or Brighton, respectively.
N: via Broadway express, south side bridge, Sea Beach.
Q: From 57/7th (or possibly Queens via 63rd ST, when equipment becomes available) via Broadway express, south side bridge, Brighton express.
W: From Ditmars to Whitehall, rush hours only, via Broadway local (this was the original intention of the W line).
Anyone care to add to this, feel free.
That sounds pretty good.
Oh it sounds pretty good allright----good to everybody except those who decide the question. And the N is still stuck in lower Manhattan.
A scaled down version of the fully open plan was released a few years ago, and differed with the N going over the bridge peak direction from/to Brooklyn only (but still express both ways in Manhattan) rush hours. That way, Sea Beach would have its bridge service, and Astoria would still have lower Manhattan without having to have a W. This was when the TA was still in service cut mode.
So it basically depends on how the money is when the Bridge is finished. Also, there is supposed to be major hearings and stuff to determine the final service plan when all the work is finished.
This seems to me also to be the most logical scenario. Perhaps minor modifications would be having the N run local in Manhattan downtown AM, uptown PM, local all the way evenings, nights and weekends; Q extended to Jamaica, exp. all the way, rush hours (replacing half of the F trains out there); Z extended via Brighton local to Coney Island, rush hours; if ridership continues to increase, Q runs weekends.
The last time the Manhattan Bridge had four tracks Brooklyn had more service. You had the N and Q on the south side, the B and D on the north side, and the R and M in the tunnel. BUT you also had more service running on Broad Street and terminating at Chambers, if I read my map right.
They'll almost certainly want a balanced load on the bridge, and that means B/D on one side and N/Q on the other. The only change I could see is to move the B over to the Brighton, and make the Q a W on the West End, to minimize switching. Both the Sea Beach and West End would bypass DeKalb.
To increase service to Lower Manhattan via tunnel, and service on the Brighton, it would be nice if they extended the Z out to the Brighton during rush hours. That would be a service increase, so they'd have to have more cars, but at least it would be eight car trainsets.
"The B over to the Brighton, and make the Q a W on the West End." True, this would minimize switching. But it would perpetuate the loss of service on the Brighton that the MB problems caused. I believe that the Brighton should have both a 6th Av. Exp. service (D) and a Broadway Exp. service (Q), 16/5 at least. I do agree with you that the Z should be extended rush hours as Brighton local to provide service downtown. I am also for the suggestion of another subtalker that the Q Broadway Exp. should be extended to Jamaica, express all the way, rush hours (replacing half of the Fs out there), all this if ever both sides of the MB are open.
It would be nice if the MTA brought back the old World's Fair cars for the #7 line instead of replacing the Redbirds with those silver whatdoyoucallem cars. It won't happen of course and that's a shame.
E_DOG
Oh, those Bluebirds. ;-(
If it were the BMT Bluebirds we'd have something to celebrate!!
Got news for you-those cars never left.
I WOULD like to see at least one train repainted into the World's Fair scheme.
-Hank
Totally agree!
I just got back from shea, his car is still there although R 33s 9331 is about 5 feet in front of it. Also 9322 is coupled to 9331 NOW IS A CHANCEto get some pics of this car while its at corona yard. This car may not be here for long. Hence its only 1 car.
It may be that 9331 and 9322 are coupled because the 11th car is being removed from service, as it has been 3 out of the last 4 years on the #7 line from July 4 - Labor day weekend.
Cars 9307-9345 are unbearable in the summer - and few people sit in them, even at rush hour.
Then again, I could be way off base on this.
I hope the A/C in these cars (R62A) are working. Many a day when I get on the #1 and the car is so humid - its dripping. No Working A/C. Now I know #2155 is not a #1 car but it used to be.
flx 7595
The R-33 singles aren't as bad as cars with broken a/c. The R-33's have pretty powerful fans that keep the air circulating, and nobody's going to complain that the windows are open. (A C/R on the 6 once closed the window I had opened a few minutes earlier in a car with broken a/c and insisted that I suffer or give up my seat and move to the next car.)
Today was by no means very hot, but I rode in one of those R-33's on the 7 for a few stops and I was perfectly comfortable.
"Cars 9307-9345 are unbearable in the summer - and few people sit in them, even at rush hour"
I was on the #7 line yesterday (7/4) and rode from Times Sq. to Woodside. I entered and sat down in a single that had one passenger. all vent windows were closed as was end doors. I opened all the vent windows and had a seat. No one got on until 40-Lowery. I guess people must know which car is the hotnone and probably see open vent windows. ON the ride from Woodside back to Times Sq. I rode #9307. Could this be the last summer of the R-33 singles (revenue service) ?
Bill "Newkirk"
will they have that little narrow window at the end and front of the car??? and when will more come?
All R62's and R62A's will have narrow windows at the locations you have mentioned. I saw a photo of an R62 Flushing line train for test service back in 1980, and I'm not sure if they'll be used for the 7 or if the TA will order new cars.
The R62(A) fleet will not need to be replaced until their full life spans have been elapsed. (approx. until the year 2020)
Hope this helps.
Railfan Pete.
Tomorrow, Friday July 6th will be the alst day that they'll EVER see service on the 7 as this weekend they will be cut to 10 cars. Get your pics and riding while you can now before they're all gone.
R33#9335Gary
what u mean by that?? instead of 11 cars they are going to use 10 cars?
by the way, its only 1 car. this could mean somthing else like they can use that car as a work car. when are more coming? 1 does not mean anything
Exactly! 10 car service is effective on Saturday July 7 12 Midnight.
R36#9547Gary
Won't they come back around Labor day?
Are they going to replace all the Redbirds by then?
are they all going to come and replace the deadbirds by labor day or should we still wait?
Um... 11 car trains were running today. I counted 10 cars over the weekend, though. Are the singles only being pulled out for weekends, or is this going to be a slow process?
There will be NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO 10 car service this summer also you did NOT see 10 car service this weekend due to 2 GOs
OK... I counted 10 while going by on the Van Wyck, so I could easily be mistaken :)
I have to agree, working at Queens Plaza I've seen some 10 car sets, the R33 mising from its third car Flushing position. Yes there are more 11 car sets but I've seen a few 10 car's.
Maybe they're conducting a test on crowd levels, running a few short trains to see if it's bearable. Maybe they scrapped too many singles already and have a shortage.
when are more coming???? by the way, if the 62a's are in the 7, will they have the little narrow windows at the end and front of each car??
Yesterday I saw R36 9478 and others lay up at Concourse Yard. Does that mean they will go back to the Flushing line?
Chaohwa
This question is about as dumb as a Shuttle going from 111 Street to 125 Street...(If the right people read this, they'll get a chuckle...)
IT WILL NEVER HAPPEN
Why the hell would redbirds go to Concourse only to go back to Flushing? AREN'T WE TRYING TO GET RID OF THEM? Maybe if you research before you post, we wouldn't have idiotic questions like your's. By the way, in response, IT'S GETTING STRIPPED DOWN IN PREP FOR SCRAP, OR ITS GOING TO BE SCRAPPED... Damn, I have respect for you and your site, but this was completely DUMB and STUPID....
Sorry for all the smart people here, I didn't mean to go all out...
Clayton
FIZZLE...FIZZLE...FIZZLE...........SPAT!
The Sounds of My Nerves Snapping at Dumb Post
Clayton, this is become the norm around here nowadays......Post without thouhgt, you saw that post Q46 left about blowing past Gun Hill at high speed and seeing 7 buses with no fareboxes on his way to New Rochelle on a Bee Line Bus..YIKES!!!!!!!
And I'm chuckling something bad right now :o) LMFAO!
Regards,
T.Lo
www.transitalk.com
It's become 'the norm' because in each and all our
quests to "know it all" we have turned to one another
to seek a form of 'information' and 'sub-education'
whereas if we were to querie these same questions
to any common folk, we'd likely be prescribed a
stay at Alcatraz.... or worse-- WCW.
Also, to an out-of-town fellow, as is our
MD. lensman Chao-Hwa, seeing redbirds in a foreign yard
may cause a reason for headscratch, whereas we in-towners
have seen these placements daily and have come to view it
as a (currently) natural occurence...whereas to others
it may be 'odd' or 'puzzling'.
Cheers!
First of all, I am not dumb enough to think a shuttle to go from 111st Street to 125th Street.
Second, before I went to NYC, I have been busy doing research for two weeks. I don't have time to read EVERY POST here!!!
I may ask what you think is a dumb question. However, I DO NOT APPRECIATE your knee-jerk reaction.
Chaohwa
One more thing. For my own track record I don't make any outragous statements. I just asked a question and got attacked liked this?
I am very angry at you now.
Chaohwa
Chao-Hwa asked a good question. Why wouldn't the R-36s go back to Flushing? Most cars that have to travel to/from the Flushing Line come through there anyway.
But to answer Chao-Hwa's question the Redbirds here are in dead storage and they haven't been stripped.
That's what was mentioned in previous posts.
-Stef
If that's true about the redbirds in storage only at Concourse except for the 8 that were stripped and brought over from 207yd., then they should be taken off the redbird scrap list on this site. Found another 2 today at 207 yd that are stripped #9544-45. Finally found that date when I had first seen 9487-87 stripped at 207 yd. It was 3/25/01.
Grimace, 9486 and 87 were in the shop since early February. I know because I was in training at the facility for station agent.
As for the cars at Concourse, the webmaster could make note of the fact that they haven't been stripped, but stored servicable, for now at least..... If I'm wrong for saying this, someone correct me, but those cars at Concourse Yard haven't been gutted yet.
-Stef
How much ya wanna bet that Train Dude's stashing them away for the day Salaamallah drops by with the flatbed? :)
Don't get me started on this one..... He may as well build his own railroad. I am now rolling on the floor and laughing my ass off.
-Stef
Give until it hurts. :)
?? I will be the one who will bet the last LOL when you see all of those new r-142 scrap-ready-made-junkers all breakin' down !!
Well, Stan Fischler had the story in his first book on the subways on how the last remaining Low Vs were saved by shuttling them around the system and out of the way of the scrap lines, maybe he's planning the 21st century version of this effort for six to 10 Redbirds :-)
I would agree with that. It would seem unlikely that every last Redbird is going to bite the dust. Someone could hide them at one of the yards to keep prying eyes away....
-Stef
hey! ! i saw your nastly little post !
& it didnt make any sense either !
Howdy, guy ... wasn't intended to be nasty ... I was joking that the redbirds in good condition might have been stashed away in hopes that you might show up with a flatbed truck, haul them out to Californy and give them a good home that wasn't too moist. Was funnin' for the folks. I live upstate, not a mean bone in the bod ...
You'll have to forgive salaam. These are truly dark days for him. The reality is that on the current Car inspector pick that begins on July 15th, there are many jobs dedicated to stripping the redbirds of usable parts before they become part of the subterrainian landscape.
BTW: Those of us who have true compassion should be sending salaam an E-sympathy card with an E-prescription for Prozac
Aw c'mon, guy ... cut the guy some slack ... get his address and we'll chip in to buy him a CHRISTMAS present. :)
Will there be the obligatory contribution of controller and brakestand to the Heypaul museum? At least a wiper? Alms for the poor? Spare handles? Roll curtains? Betcha the "M" could raise a few bucks selling toys to the needy railfans. And a storm door ... well, maybe "we are 13" could auction a few ...
I checked them out tonight after laying up. Everything is servicable.
ChaoHwa asked a good question: 9478 and up were on the 7 once before and they could've possibly went back there. I was thinking that they were going to go back too. I never would've thought that cars 9526-9557 were going to come to the 7 instead of 9478-9523. If anything besides 9526-9557 would come to the 7, 9478-9523 would've.
Also heard that the 7 will be the last line in NYC to have RedBirds operating. It will take the TA about a year or so to scrap every single 1 from service. And the way the R142s have been acting up with glitches and whatnot, they may still need them as standbys.
R36#9361Gary
yes .........a lot of standbys to be replaced with new breakdown scrap-ready-junkers !! Lol !!
I had posted about a week ago 28 Redbirds were at Concourse Yard. They will be the first to run on the DJL line.
DJL, What the hell is the DJL?
T.
Let's not get nasty here. Almost all the questions are intelligent. Those of us who are NOT TA employees are jsut trying to broaden our knowledge.
Let's keep it friendly :)
D4000 and I aren't TA employees...
umm...'da junk line? 8-)
Peace,
ANDEE
Davy Jones Locker - in other words, the ocean.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
It means they're on their way to "swim with the fishes."
Thanks for the information. More appropriately, they are going to "live with the fishes." :)
Chaohwa
Ya know... R16 Lover put it nice and simple... thx R16!
Been watching too much of the Godfather on the 4th.
There is an R62A car at Corona, we do not need to do a day by day 62A synopsis, when we need to worry is when we see the first set...Then this ranting and raving will go on, but please, I don't want to see like 10 people posting about the same damn car!
Hey, did you know that there's an R62A at Corona?
An R-62A at Corona? No s*&t??
--Mark
Hold tha' phones!!!
Quick 'ma, bring the kids!
What was that you said? An R-26 at Corona?
An R62A at Corona?
REPENT!!!! The world is coming to an end!!!!
What did you say, an R142 at Coney Islansd Yard.
Robert
I know a lot of this thread was a goof, but the initial posts leads me to believe that you're "worrying" about having R62A's on the 7 line as if that's a bad thing. I like riding those trains. I rode them on the 3 when I was up there last week and rode them every day on the 4 between Wall St and Mosholu Pkwy. and thought they were comfortable,clean and lightning quick. They hadn't changed 10 years later. Was that just humorous sarcasm or is there something against the R62's?
>>>I know a lot of this thread was a goof, ....<<<
Don't be too sure of that.
Peace,
ANDEE
I really like the R62A, and I'm thrilled that they're comming to the (7). The 62/62A is probably my favorite car class.
Imagine: A ride on the (7) with a good air conditioner and decent announcements and without the jerky, swaying motion, the jarring brake action, or the screeching!
It's comming....
:-) Andrew
ok, if the 62a's are on the 7, will they have that little narroew window at the end and front of the car??? i think that makes it look nicer
Of course they'll still have the small window....what do you think they are going to with it? cover it up with plywood before they send the cars to the 7? GEEZ
Peace,
ANDEE
is that i got on an r62 and it did not have that little window
Not all of the redbirds are that bad. I rode several of the singles today and they ride pretty smooth for cars that are nearly 40 years old. Nonetheless, A/C is A/C and I'll be overjoyed to see the R-62s on the 7.
Dan
I was on a redbird this evening on the 4 going uptown.
And?
Come on, we're all waiting for the punchline Mike. What was your feeling about it, if any? The suspense is killing all of us.
Damn, I'll treat you like an out of towner, they run semi-frequently, maybe 4 or 5 sets running daily...
*Uses left hand to stop right hand from fetching knife...*
Clayton...
Redbirds are somewhat common oc the No. 4 line in my experience.
BMTJeff
I was on an absolutely frigid R-62 on the 4 early this afternoon (en route to the buses). Is the a/c on the R-62 more powerful than on the R-62A or was I just lucky? (Lucky? Nah, couldn't be. If I were lucky we wouldn't have gotten stuck at 14th due to problems with the gap fillers.)
They don't call the R62's "Greased Iceboxes" for nothing.
All of the 62s have excellent A/C. When the A/C is operating, it's the best in the system, to the point where it can be too cold in the cars sometimes. Just like the Queens Surface Orion Vs--when their A/C is on full blast (I think that's the only setting) you had better hope you're properly dressed because if you're not you're liable to catch cold.
Dan
Several recent right-of-way photos of the under-construction Trenton-Camden light rail line have been posted for the enjoyment of both of you who are interested.
Updated photos
As I predicted the SJLR project did indeed cause the loss of the 4 PRR Dwarfs, the PRR high signal, the 3 US&S electro-penumatic switches and the Conrail style propane burner point heaters. To add insult to injury the signals were replaced by Safetrain dwarf signals with GRS electric switches. (Didn't I head that US&S won the SJLR signaling contract?)
CP-HATCH presents an interesting problem for the SJLR project. Here is the current layout.
1------------4
............/
2------------5
........../
3-----
1 is the Conrail Palmyra industrial track, 2 is the future SJLR track and 3 is the Fish House Branch to CP-JERSEY and then on to Pennsylvania via the Delair bridge. 4 and 5 are the tracks to Pavonia yard in Camden. Trains going between 4/5 and 3 are the primary freight route into South Jersey and unlike the route the SJLR is taking any service disruption would be a disaster. The big question is hot to route the SJLR through the interlocking.
Well the future plan will be something like this.
........----------6
......./
1-----------------4
..../......../
2-----------------5
............/
3------
With 6 being a new dedicated SJLR track. The new CP-HATCH will be divided into two sub-interlockings so that Light Rail and Railroad can remain seperate. Chuchubob sent me a pic that he took inside the relay hut and you can see the emergency manual interlocking control is set up for this future layout. This does limit access to the Palmyra Industrial track (which connects to the Pemberton Industrial Track), but this can be reached with a reverse move up the Fish House Branch.
CP-HATCH is controled from the Pavonia Yard office and the new CP-HATCH is getting a microwave connection to said office for the new signal control. This will allow the old catenary poles to be town down (BOOOO! :( ) for the SJLR track, as their only current function is to carry the signaling wires. Hopefully they won't have to remove the old PRR three track signal bridge.
I was with Chuchubob when he took these pictures and he is free to post the ones I sent him, but if he can't I'll be able to post them myself on Sunday. As you can see there were some Conrail track workers installing the new GRS switches. They paid us absolutely no mind as we walked down the RoW and then took pictures of them working. That rates two thumbs up in my book.
PS: I'm with stupid -->
I was with Chuchubob when he took these pictures...
PS: I'm with stupid -->
Now you let the cat out of the bag!
I added the photos of the track diagram (illustrating your description) to my photos at Hatch.
Feel free to edit, correct, or amplify my text. (PS: I'm with stupid -->)
OK. Add a third. I'm interested too. Nice pix, etc.
(PS: I'm NOT with stupid -->)
The last engine on the NS lite engine move we caught going through CP-HATCH (a traditional cab Dash 8-C39 #8762) had a bit of grime on the short hood. Written in the grime ("Wash Me" style) was "I'm With Stupid -->" with the arrow pointing toward the cab. Chuchu has a pic of it. There was also "NO $" seen written on the fuel tank of PRR SD60M #6797.
I have a crystal clear shot of the side of the cab of Dash 8-C39 #8676 with the Southern designation C39-8, but my shot of #8762 is from an angle and the dirt writing doesn't show up.
Dash 8-C39's and C39-8's are different classes. It has nothing to do w/ the history of the loco.
C39-8 is pronounced "See thirty nine dash ate".
I think Dash 8-C39's and C39-8's are the same model.
Actually, it's Dash 8-39C. The NS designation is simply their own version, just like the Pennsy called locomotives by almost any name other than what the manufacturer called them.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Both locomotives had "D8-39C" painted in a lower corner. The photo of #8676 to which I referred has "SOU" painted beneath the number and more recently painted "C39-8" to the right of "SOU".
That's the shape of it... all of the designations mean the same thing.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
The SOU loco only had C39-8. I think that a Dash 8-39C is not the same as a C39-8, even if the only differance is that the Dash 8-39C is simply newer. Maybe Selkirk could tell us if something like a Dash 9-44C is the same as a C44-9.
Maybe Selkirk could tell us if something like a Dash 9-44C is the same as a C44-9.
I suspect a number of people could tell us they're the same. Big Ed, for example. Perhaps you could email Tuch. Or do an internet search. Or read Anon's posts.
I almost missed the invite here entirely ... no offense, but dielsel locos up where I live are as common as mosquitos and NJ happenings, well, no offense, but I never did much Jersey. Only thing that ever attracted me towards railfanning in Jersey was the PCC's from Newark "Penn Station" and of course, commuting to work for a while at a radio station in Jersey City back in the 70's ...
The "dash #" is the revision number of a loco, so I would tend to agree that a Dash 9-44C is the same as a C44-9 ... after all, it's a "-9" ... it's not like GM changes the Loco Impala, the Loco Citation, or the Loco Silverado every model year or builds "custom" like Alco did. GM killed off the others because you can have your loco in any color you like, so long as it's black. The "dash" revisions were largely power plant changes and some reshaping of the carbodies to reflect what GM/EMD was willing to change. :)
Thanks, Selkirk.
Anticipate an argument from Mike; once the woodpeckers nesting in his 'do get going, he can't hear himself think. :)
I don't mind an argument ... I'm WAY too old to think I have all the answers and ain't offended if I turn out to be wrong. I give the best answer I can based on what I know, which ain't everything. If I don't KNOW the answer, then count on a clever retort and diversion into humor. :)
I don't judge 'em, I just RUN 'em. Until the motors smoke. Heh.
The Dashes are made my GE, not GM. I always felt it was some sort of marketing gimic, but there might have been some small differance like an extended warrenty or something. My roster source is listing #8676 as a C39-8 and #8762 (I'm with stupid) as a C40-8 (I guess I mis remembered). Some people are sticklers about the Dash # system while others are more lax about it. As I guessed it is probably just a marketing ploy, but in the -8 series you will see locos that were sold as both C##-8 and Dash 8-##C. The question is weither or not those locos are the same. I also wonder if you can buy a loco sold under a C##-9 designation today or if everything has been dashized.
Here's the roster: http://www.eastrailnews.com/roster/new_norfolk.html
...in the -8 series you will see locos that were sold as both C##-8 and Dash 8-##C. The question is whtther or not those locos are the same.
Yes, they are the same. It's simply the nomenclature assigned them by the receiving railroads, which may have changed over time.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Whoops! Sorry for getting Gm confused with Generous Erection there. Yep. Yer right. The EMD's are better built (to my own mind) but yeah, the GE's are the Alcos of today (without the customizations) ... though I still doubt there's much difference in where you place the model numbers unless you're worried about some rube in purchasing figuring out you also sold it to NS. :)
I was wondering if anyone could teel me why the Bronx portion fo the El was retained till 1973. While I'm glad it was (I've got those cool R12 pics on my hard drive), I was wondering if there had been a plan to link it to the proposed Second Avenue line (before they decided to hook it up to the Northern end of the White Plains Rd Line)?
Was there any appreciable opposition in 1972-3 to scrapping this last portion of the line? Was was TA's rationale? Was it some neighborhood "improvemnt" plan liek they did in Jamaica?
I don't know why it was retained until 1973. I do remember riding it as a kid, and it provided fast service down to the "Hub," 149th Street. I think it was kept because it ran right down the center of the Bronx, and there is about a 2 mile gap between Grand Concourse (D)and Westchester Avenue/Southern Blvd (2,5).
I don't think it was ever intended to connect the Second Avenue subway to the Third Avenue El, but the connection to White Plains Road was made I believe when the White Plains Road line was completed.
Third Avenue Express trains ran all the way to 241st.
That's all I know.......
The El was kept in service because it was largely in good shape and had ridership to justify the maintenance on it. By 1973 however, the South Bronx lost its "sparkle" and ridership by then had plummeted. I used to ride it home often (I'd NEVER take it in the morning though, it was slower than the toonerville trolley) and was often the only person on the train. It died in '73 more from a lack of ridership than any demand to tear it down, though the uppoer section's residents didn't shed many tears when it did come down. And it fought every effort at destruction. That was ONE TOUGH El to tear down.
The Bronx section of the Third Avenue El was retained because it served a need -- there was no other rapid transit in that area. And, with other IRT lines elevated in the Bronx, it was not out of place.
What happened in the early 70's? Deferred maintenance resulted in such a degree of rot (literally) that the only options were (a) tearing it down or (b) entirely replacing the structure. In light of the City's budget crisis, option (a) was selected.
That is why between '72 and the Metrocard free transfer, there was a free transfer between bus and subway at 3rd Avenue and 149th Street.
It was an important line because it linked two major commercial centers (fordham center and the hub) with fast service. It was torn down because a new third avenue subway was to be built as a part of the Second Avenue Subway Line. But it never came to be and it was replaced by the sluggish Bx55.
The northern part of the line was far from other rapid transit, so it was considered necessary and, as late as the MTA's 1968 plans, it was supposed to be kept until it could be replaced by another line.
It was closed in 1973 because the TA found it was able to get away with it.
>>It was closed in 1973 because the TA found it was able to get away with it. <<
And the communities were anxious to get rid of the unsightly structure. Moreover, they were lured into a false sense of security by the promise of all the buses that would replace the El.
Little did they realize what they were in for.
To be fair - It would be interesting to speculate what Manhattan would have been like if the 3rd Av or even the 2nd Av El had not been
torn down.
To be fair - It would be interesting to speculate what Manhattan would have been like if the 3rd Av or even the 2nd Av El had not been
torn down.
Most accounts say that Third Avenue was persistently downscale when the El ran overhead. It wasn't a slum, at least not in Midtown, but attracted mostly low-end businesses that couldn't afford the rents elsewhere. Apartment buildings along the avenue were mostly low-rise and relatively inexpensive.
My guess is that Third Avenue would have become somewhat more upscale as development pressures grew, but would have remained a notch below the other avenues. It's also quite likely that community pressures to remove the unsightly El would have become stronger and stronger.
As mcuh as RIDING an el is great, the East side would be a different place (for the worse) if they had remained. The TA's cardinal sin was not replacing the service.
Somebody posted here that they "got away" with scrapping the Bronx portion of the El. I know what you meant by "getting away with", like they almost got away with getting rid of the Franklin Ave Shuttle. Just defer maintenance forever till demolition is the only "practical" option. Although it wasn't a subway, many suspect that's what happened to the old West Side Highway.
I do remember seeing soemthing in the '68 plan (as history- not old enough to actually remember it, LOL) showing the 3rd Ave line still there.
Thanks, all
The major problem with the Third Avenue El in Manhattan was the total disruption of traffic, both on Third and on cross-streets. The effect on the neighborhood was secondary. (Ah yes, I remember it well!)
The Second Avenue El was supposed to be replaced by the Second Avenue Subway (1940 version). The Manhattan Section of the Third Avenue El was supposed to be replaced by the Second Avenue Subway (1950's version). The Bronx Section of the Third Avenue El was supposed to be replaced by the Second Avenue Subway (1968 version). Any bets on whether we ever see a Second Avenue Subway!
I wonder if they could've shared tracks with Metro North's harlem Line and connected that to a 2nd ave subway. They parallel Webster avenue almost exactly and a slightly sophisticated transfer tunnel/walkway constructed to connect to the Gun Hill rd station of the 2/5 at White plains Rd. I could've used that train with all the walking I did from Perry ave to Fordham Prep in the late 80's.
No way. The Metro-North tracks use a different type of third rail which cannot be used with current subway equipment. The signaling system is totally different, and the subway signals use tripping mechanisms to enforce restricted movements, while Metro-North does not. Besides, the Metro-North tracks are very busy during rush hours, and could not support the extra traffic that sharing with the subways would bring. Now looking atthe prospect of LIRR trains going into GCT in the future, I wonder how the folks at the MTA will handle those compatibility difficulties.
No way. The Metro-North tracks use a different type of third rail which cannot be used with current subway equipment. The signaling system is totally different, and the subway signals use tripping mechanisms to enforce restricted movements, while Metro-North does not. Besides, the Metro-North tracks are very busy during rush hours, and could not support the extra traffic that sharing with the subways would bring. Now looking at the prospect of LIRR trains going into GCT in the future, I wonder how the folks at the MTA will handle those compatibility difficulties.
I walked third avenue (the Bronx) a couple of weeks ago and it seems very barren. If they ever get around building the second avenue line, I suggest building an elevated route along third avenue that will eventually connect the 2 and 5 line at Gun Hill Road.
N Broadway Line
Now in these days you look at the rent for a shoebox sized apartment on Third Ave. in Mid-Manhattan, and the price tag will give you serious sticker shock. Less money is paid for a three bedroom house with a garage and a $180,000 mortgage at 7.25% on a quiet, tree lined street in Queens than what those pirates in Manhattan want for those claustrphobia generating, thinwalled "living spaces".
I was 3 years old when they tore that down. I'd ask my folks and others why they got rid of it and they kept tell ing me that pieces of it were falling onto Webster Ave. Any truth to that???
I was 21 years old when they tore it down (Damn I feel old). I never heard of anything falling off the structure but knwoing the condition that it was in I would not be surprised.
Yeah, it shed some spikes and plates off the ties, I collected a few of them at Webster and 204th. I assume they fell at other places as well. It wasn't an everyday event, but they'd be out there in the street every coupld of weeks. Of course, they could have sent out people to bang them back into the wood before they fell down but like I said, ridership wasn't exactly a profit center on that line.
Someone told me the doors on the trains use to open while in transit. Did someone else hear or experience that story?
N Bwy Line (LOCAL)
Oh yes. In the early 80's, these incidents almost matched the numbers of derailments.
Yes ... it was shedding spikes aplenty, plates and other pieces. There was only sufficient maintenance on it to keep the trains from falling off and even there it was dubious. I remember a two week period where they actually had trains running on timbers with metal strap in place of the rail down around 155th St. If I remember correctly, the final straw was when one of the stations burned. Might have been Burnside Ave ...
And for all the yakking about what a flimsy, dangerous el it was, when they actually went to cut it down, it refused to go. They actually had to use explosives in some stretches and many footers had to be cut at the street and paved over.
I think it was Claremont Parkway that burned, and might have been a few days after it was burned.
If you are looking for a similiar ride, ride Chicago Blue Line out to 54th-Cermak. That looks like it is going to fall into the street....
I think it was Claremont Parkway that burned, and might have been a few days after the el closed.
If you are looking for a similiar ride, ride Chicago Blue Line out to 54th-Cermak. That looks like it is going to fall into the street....
Yep ... now that you mention it, that's the station that smoked. And yeah, did the blue line once out in Chitown ...
How could you have run a train - metal strap in place of rail?
5 MPH ... it was there for a couple of days on the northbound track between 156th and 161st ... about 30/40 feet in length, inside rail. Dunno why they did it, but it was in revenue ... couple days later, it got replacew tih "real" rail ...
Thanx............
The residents were promised a new 2nd Ave subway replacement, and the el itself was in serious structural trouble (especially the older portions at the southern end of the line). Speed limits and reductions from 5 to 4 car trains were necessary. Retention of the shuttle would've required a massive rehab, impossible in the politics of the 1970's.
Myself and playland attended the festiveties, Free admition into the Museum, does anyone notice that at the museum the R-12s are the most umpopular car? Did anyone else attend?
Dude,I was there. It was pretty kool,the best was getting downstairs for free!!The canival was packed to the rim,my kid couldnt get her face painted or get cottencandy or antthing. A bit disapointing,but overall it was fun. My kid said she wanted to come back next time when they were there. I got a rail and bus fan in the making guys!!!
I was there between 3:30pm and closing. Can't beat $0.50 admission. That Peter Pan owned GM Bus of the Future thing was really neat. It was funny that there was a line to get into the Museum store. And I checked the car number boards and all they had were R21/22's for sale. Did anyone who went there earlier see and/or buy a car number sign from a R26/28/29/33/36?
Picked up 7939 last week...
My friend got an R-29 number plate, 8603 (the car with several R-21 straps).
The car with several R-21 straps?
How do I keep missing these things?
I still haven't seen the Redbird with R-62-style handholds. I guess they keep all of the interesting trains off the 2.
Thats car 8660 a R29 on the 6 line. It is still running so you can catch it.
>>>
Thats car 8660 a R29 on the 6 line. It is still running so you can catch it<<<
Not any more...according to Train Dude...no more redbirds on the 6...effective today
Peace,
ANDEE
He said no more R-36. R-29s still ply the rails.
Andee: 8660 is a R29 car. Ill check up on the R36 thing tomorrow......
Head on over to BusTalk for some others' reactions.
The highlight of my day was the ride on the Triboro Coach New Look up to Queens. (Wrong direction, but who cares?)
I will be most pleased if the TM decides again to hold the festival on a non-Saturday.
On my trip to the Transit Museum yesterday, I first took the (7) train to Queensboro Plaza. I transferred to the (N), and was glad to see a train of R32 cars enter the station. The lead car on this train is 3581. After passing through the 60th Street tunnel, I ran upstairs and caught a downtown (6) train of R142A cars. After getting on 7397, and walking to 7396, I got off at Grand Central and took the Shuttle to Times Square. I saw a (3) train of R62A's entering on the express track. I boarded on the second car from the back. All 9 cars were singles with narrow cabs (I actually saw the conductor change sides, in order to open the doors at 34th Street). I moved to the first car and stood by the front window. I got off at Borough Hall. I walked along Court to State Street, then along Boreum Place and Adams Street to the Mariott Hotel. I walked back from the hotel the way I came, passing a LONG line along Boreum Place at the entrance. I walked along State and Court Streets to the Court Street entrance to Schermerhorn Street, where the line was a LOT shorter. After paying the 50˘ admission fee and getting the hand stamp, I went in to explore the buses. I had made an arrangment to meet my aunt, who also is somewhat a transit fan. While I was waiting (she was on the Boreum Place line, which was estimated to be a half-block long), I went around the mezzanine level of the station. I went back upstairs, and eventually met her. We started taking pictures. We went through the whole museum, entering R7A #1575 and R33 #9306. I ran out of film (a 36 roll) before going downstairs! What I took yesterday will appear on Transit Pictues 25, which will be up probably on Tuesday or Wednesday.
After eating at Wendy's, my aunt and I took a (4) train to Atlantic Avenue. The lead car: R62 #1575. Being at Atlantic Avenue felt a bit weird. I would usually arrive there during the middays, when (4) trains terminate there. I took a (D) train (there was no Q then). My aunt got off the (D) train at Church Avenue, while I continued to Coney Island. On the turn into Stillwell Avenue, I saw an (N) train on track 1. The southernmost car: 3581. I transferred to that train once the doors opened. An (N) train of R40 slants entered on track 2. As the (N) train I was on departed, I saw a (B) train depart from track 8. It was a train of R40 slants. I took that (N) train to 36th Street. I was a bit surprised when the (N) train switched to the local track on the approach to 59th Street. Since my desire was an express, I got off at 36th Street, and waited a moment. I noticed a train entering on F4 track. It was the same (B) train I saw leaving Stillwell. I rode this train, led by car 4162, followed by 4163, 4370-1, 4170-1, and four more cars I didn't get the numbers to. I took another (4) train. The lead car: 9305. I got off at 59th Street. While riding, both the (3) and (4) trains, I noticed that there were a lot more R142A trains on the (6), about 3 or 4, than R142 trains on the (2), exactly one. As mentioned earlier, I got off at 59th Street, where I went to the Lexington Avenue (N) station. I saw a few trains of R68's there. Apparently, some cars have the rollsigns installed wrong. For example:
--------------------------
| | Coney Island |
| (N) |--------------------|
| |Astoria/Ditmars Blvd|
--------------------------
South terminal in the north terminal space, and vice versa. While I'm waiting, an (N) train of R32's came in on G2 track. the tenth car of that train is...you guessed it...3581. The trip via the 4th Avenue BMT and Lexington Av IRT express was quicker than the trip up the Broadway/4 Av BMT local. Instead of getting on, I waited for the next (N) train, which was, of course, the train of R40 slants. That train must have blasted through that tunnel at, like, 60 MPH! I hereby proclaim the R40 slant the best car to ride through that tunnel. In the time I was waiting for that train of 40-slants, the transfer on my metrocard had expired. So, after taking the (7) from Queensboro Plaza to Bliss Street, I walked home.
As a recap, here are the main points of the trip:
- Three sightings of R32 #3581 and the train it was on.
- Being on both R7A and R62 #1575
- Being on R33 cars #9306 and 9305
- R40 slants on the (B) and (N)
- Real quick ride northbound through 60th Street tunnel
- Railfan windows on both ends of a (3) train, and a narrow cab on both ends of all 9 cars
- More "millennium" cars on the (6) than on the (2)
That's about it!
While you were on 9305 and 9306 remember
9305 R 33 MAINLINE
9306 R 33 WORLDS FAIR
True, but sill consecutive numbers.
True, but still, consecutive numbers.
I dont know why people paid admissions, We just went in, and went all over the place, whats interesting is we didn't realize that we had to pay until we left the festiveties and had seen the people waiting online to get in, oh well.
Why is the W/West End from Coney Island being turned around at Pacific St. on weekends? Why is the MTA only running the (Q), at much less frequency than what the combined weekday W, (Q) and frequency will be? I assume the Manhattan Bridge would be capable of handling the W and (Q) on weekends, strength-wise
Will the N and R run local through the Montague tunnel on weekends? Having no 4th Ave. bridge express service on weekends makes no sense to me. If there is to be one line cut back on weekends (but why?), it seems, based on ridership, that it should be the N, not the B.
The MTA web site mentions the W cutback, but in a somewhat "hidden" way, I think. Won't the W riders be angry? Do they realize what will happen to them? To get to midtown Manhattan as they used to, they will need to switch to the N or R from Pacific St. and take it one stop to DeKalb Ave., then switch to the (Q). A double transfer. OR go upstairs at Pacific St. and use the free transfer walk to the (Q) or IRT Atlantic AVe. stations. Seems unfair.
IF W riders complain, do you think the MTA will change the W operation on weekends?
Mike Rothenberg
Maybe they would change it if people complained.
What about running the N express over the bridge on weekends?
"If there is to be one line cut back on weekends, it should be the N, not the B." Based on ridership, true. Presently, the N runs nights to Manhattan, while the B and R do not. This is done to avoid a double transfer for N or R riders, or redundancy (N and R) from 59th to 36th, which would waste money.
Cutting the main line; the N, will be very ignorant.
N Bwy Line
But this will make a double transfer for W riders - first to the N or R for the one-station ride from PAcific St. to Dekalb, and then a transfer to the Q (unless W riders want to go upstairs to the mezzanine and transfer to either of the Atlantic Ave. station trains).
As far as the R and W being cut back at night, this is not the issue. The question is why does any line need to be cut back during the day and evening, on weekends? The W could replace the N during weekend days and evenings to Astoria, as it now replaces the Q to Queensbridge (I think) during weekend days and evenings.
But the real question is: if the B and D could run on the northside bridge tracks while the southside tracks were being worked on, on weekends, why can't the W and Q run on the southside bridge tracks while the northside tracks are being worked on, on weekends?
Mike Rothenberg
"But the real question is: if the B and D could run on the northside bridge tracks while the southside tracks were being worked on, on weekends, why can't the W and Q run on the southside bridge tracks while the northside tracks are being worked on, on weekends?"
This question supposes that the work that will cause the W to be truncated will be happening on the bridge. T'ain't necessarily so...
David
OK, this is completely out of here but I just can't help myself. I work nights and I'm dead on hours now and sucking down beers in the company bar ...
Isn't there something inherently wrong with the concept of a DUBYA train to begin with? I realize we have us a GOP governor, even if he hasn't yet gotten the clue that the party thinks less of him than Jeffords right now because his fundamentalist moral fiber ain't up to that of Jesse Helms, and thus NYC can rot in Hades as far as DUBYA in concerned.
But NAMING a train after Shrub? In NYC? Ummm ... I don't care WHERE it goes, I ain't riding no DUBYA train. :)
The "W" is for "W"est End. No politics are involved whatsoever.
David
Then let's call it the "X train" ... might bring back Agen Fox Muldaur ... by *not* naming it the "dubya" then all politics would be removed. Don't mind me, I don't give a rat's ass about politics personally, I realize that "politics" is derived from "poly" meaning "many" and "ticks" which is self-explanatory. Rest assured that all political parties are out for themselves and pluck you. :)
But let's go for "X" ... Dubya means "work motor" and well ... ain't been much leadership out of our work.
NYCT work motors haven't had a "W" prefix on their car numbers in many years. Again: "W" is a mnemonic device meaning "W"est End. Politics are not involved in the naming convention.
David
Heh. No problem. "It's a CONSPIRACY, MAN!" :)
Actually, I don't believe that's correct.
Reminds me of how I used to joke that my local soon-to-be-expired B train was called the B because it ran through Bensonhurst and Boro Park in Brooklyn and up to the Bronx to end at Bedford (park) Boulevard....
I'm pretty sure the reason the W was chosen was because they needed a yellow symbol for the train, it running on broadway and all, and for whatever reason N, R, Q, and W are the ones that were already yellow on the signs.
And personally, though I disapprove of the President's policies, i think it's funny to have a train with his name - and anyway, what are we gonna do, start using every letter from the names of people we don't like?
-Alan Scott
rather, STOP using letters.
sorry about that.
wacky antonymous typoes...
As long ago as 1995, I saw an R32 with one side roll-sign partially turned to a yellow "W"- the top portion said "Astoria", I couldn't tell what the bottom portion said, then the train pulled out of Canal St.
Along came the internet and subway.org and a few others. I think I read in a few places there was once some kind of plan to run the "W" from Astoria to Whitehall, once the "N" was returned to the Manny B.
I've even asked here in earlier posts whether anyone knew of this...I think one or 2 folks may have validated this.
W Astoria / Broadway was what the sign said. Yep, the plan was to return the N to the bridge and run the W from Astoria to Whitehall as a rush hour only service (broadway local). Since the N would run via bridge all times except nights (when the R didn't run), only during rush hour would there be two broadway locals.
I presume if this plan were to still go into effect, the W would run all day (lower Broadway line now has more ridership).
The broadway local structure would be something like this:
Weekdays, 5AM - 9PM : R/W
Weekdays, 9PM - MID : R, N north of Canal
Nights : N
Weekends, 5AM - MID : R, N north of Canal
Let's hope that once the Bridge is fully open, they actually DO this. There's been 2 locals along lower Broadway since at least 1967, with the old EE & RR, later the N. Of course, from 1976 to 1998ish, the N to Whitehall was a rush-hour branch...
Call the train the 'X' and Spike Lee will probably have his lawyers on your back for copyright infringement :-)
If it were up to me, I would have used the Traditional West End letter which was "T" for the Brooklyn Service. Still, "W"...sounds funny!
"W"ayne
That is a coincidence. What's the A for? How about the N? N doesn't seem to work with Broadway, Seach Beach, 4 Avenue nor Astoria. The only intentional one is the S. S for special and shuttle. The W was chosen as it is the last free Broadway letter.
What about (J)amaica ave, and (M)yrtle ave?
Formerly, also (C)oncourse.
What really gets me is the the L isn't an El, except for about two stops.
The "L" is an El for 5˝ stops: New Lots, Livonia, Sutter, Atlantic, Broadway Junction, and southbound Wilson Avenue. Two others are at grade.
wayne
The "T" was free and historical Astoria-Broadway-West End.
But the T is not yellow. It's white on every rollsign that it appears on, if I'm not mistaken.
"The W could replace the N..." Yes, it could. But I think the TA has gone to keeping things as simple as possible over the last 15 years or so. This trend toward simplicity would go against having the N serving Astoria at some hours and the W at others. (This trend also resulted about 15 years ago in the part-time Q becoming the Brighton Express and the 24/7 D the Brighton Local.) I agree with you that there seem to be inequities with service patterns. My peeve is that the Brighton has nearly as many passengers as all the 4th Av. services put together (statistics posted by David a few weeks ago), but the 4th Av. lines should have 3 services going to Manhattan on weekends while the Brighton has only 1.
Only the 4th Avenue express can terminate at Pacific. On weekends, that means the W. Thus the W must terminate at Pacific.
(Sure, I suppose the TA could run the W local and the N express on weekends, but then nobody would be able to remember which lines run express and which run local.)
There's no need to transfer twice -- the N and R also go to Midtown, albeit via Lower Manhattan. Pacific/Atlantic also has the 2/3/4 option.
I think the idea is that, at least for the next year, GO's will have either the bridge or the tunnel out of commission entirely on most weekends, so the W would have to be cut back then in any case.
I did suggest a while back that the W run through to DeKalb, terminating on whichever track isn't otherwise in use. (That would require a bit of switching and wrong-railing but it could be done.) Those weekends that both the tunnel and the bridge are open, the W could continue on to Manhattan despite the scheduled short-turn.
I guess, and I must admit it makes sense, that TA tries to keep GO's to a minimum, and therefore, knowing of the need for trackwork, ha simply made it official that the W will have only a short run on weekends.
I had actually heard that there'll be a lot of trackwork scheduled for the next few years, hence this schedule. While inconvinient, (good friends of mine used to live in Bensonhust, so I remember taking the "B" on weekends straight to Rock Center), at least W riders will KNOW what they gotta do.
Lets hope they ahve it extended by the time they close Stillwell Avenue-Coney Island Station. Or you'll have a W Train running from Bay Parkway to Pacific Street. Kinda short for a run.
When they renovate Stillwell, odds are that the only train that will still go there will be the W (B).
There's a big station job at DeKalb about the start up. That may be the reason for turning the W at Pacific on weekends.
If so, people could always lobby to stop the DeKalb rehab until after 2004.
What is the DeKalb Ave. rehab project going to do?
Mike Rothenberg
It's a station rehabilitation project, addressing structural as well as aesthetic concerns. Elevators (ADA) will be installed as well.
David
Yes, those crumbling trackside walls are going to get all fixed up, just like they did at 36th street. Let's hope they keep the use of that sealant/clearcoat to a minimum - it stinks to high heaven.
wayne
I think the Q and W (riders) is getting preferential treatment over my N line, because they are running over the Manhattan Bridge.
Maybe they should have created a diamond N that runs via West End instead of the W line.
N Broadway Line (LOCAL)
N-B Line wrote:
>I think the Q and W (riders) is getting preferential treatment over >my N line, because they are running over the Manhattan Bridge.
>
>Maybe they should have created a diamond N that runs via West End >instead of the W line.
>
>N Broadway Line (LOCAL)
I think that would confuse people too much....myself included. you'd end up with two permanent N trains that take different ways out of manhattan and different paths in Brooklyn, crossing at 62/New Utrecht and then terminating together at Stillwell!
Could you imagine the annnouncements? "Transfers available to the *other* N train..."
And at Pacific/Atlantic, imagine you're on a 2 train: "Transfers to the 3, 4, 5, M, R, N, N, Q and Q trains!" hee hee...here's a thought, let's call *all* the trains the N Train (or the B, etc.), but with different shaped signs....now *that* would confuse tourists (and everyone else..)
Alan Scott
Your funny!!! By the way, when I wrote that message I became upset when someone wrote that the N train shouldn't be all the time. Sooooo I said why not have one N go over the bridge via West End. But your RIGHT! it will be very confusing.
N Bwy LINE LOCAL
CONGRATULATIONS!!! YOU'VE STARTED THE ONE BILLIONTH THREAD ABOUT THE W TURNING AT PACIFIC!!! TELL HIM WHAT HE'S WON, DAVE!
Before Chrystie Street and the B running all the way to Coney Island, wasn't weekend service the same - only to 36th Street, provided by the TT local?
We've only gone back about 35 years.
Correct, but todays "B" service carries many more passengers than the old "TT" service.
The T ran to 57th on Sat., but was a shuttle Sun.
Which would still be a service increase compared to what the TA desires to do with the "W" weekends.
Did they ever run GE and Westinghouse R16's together?
Looking at my pictures of the R16's, it seems that all the 6300's ran together, and the same with the 6400's.
Any ideas??????????
As a kid, I HATED the R16s, R27/30s. As an adult, I miss them. while the 16s appear to have had a lot of problems from the outset (I'm sorry), if the 30s had been preserved, we could have more service now, when we need it.
Did you hate them because they replaced the B and D types?
The last remaining 30's were stripped of their parts and put into the WF 36's, correct? Wasn't it the controllers?
The R-27s and R-30s replaced most of the nonrebuilt BMT standards, SIRT cars, multis, and Lo-Vs operating on BMT shuttle lines. The Triplexes remained until the R-32s began arriving.
The R-16s themselves didn't replace anything.
With the current equipment shortage on New Jersey Transit (I'll call it that because of many SRO trains), I think it may have been premature to retire the Arrow II's two - three years ago.
I didn't ride them in their last days, and don't know if they were in real bad shape, but wouldn't it have made sense to keep them in service on the Hoboken division and keep all the Arrow III's in Northeast Corridor/North Jersey Coast Service? Or maybe cannibalize a few to keep the rest running?
I didn't hear anything about the Arrow II's being retired. Of course there weren't many of them so they would be east to miss. However, NJT isn't really in the mabit of scrapping things. They turned all the Arrow I's into Cab cars and I'm sure the Arrow II's could have gotten some conversion into an unpowered trailer of some sort.
from NJT posters in cars: The arrow I cars Now called Comet I cars will be retired when the Comet V cars arrive.
From other sources: The Arrow II cars might go to SEPTA.
The Arrow II's going to SEPTA would make since the Arrow II and Silverliner IV are just about identical, and AFAIK use much of the same componetry.
I'm glad to see that SEPTA found a use for them...........
Not all the Arrow Is became cabs, a few became trailers.
The Arrow IIs were retired around '97, they were nearly identical to the pre-GOH Arrow IIIs. I have a very, very vague memory of them, they had the two-color seats (window tan, aisle black on the 2 seaters and window and aisle tan with center black on the three seaters).
They had center doors, SEPTA will certainly benefit from them if they did go there (I don't see them around anymore, they sat in that yard by the PATH for about 3 years).
NJT should have benefitted instead of SEPTA.
All of the NJT Electric MU Arrow II cars are retired. The Arrow I cars in service are now locomotive-hauled and are called Comet IB's. For much more info about the Arrow I go to hobokenterminal.com.
Arrow III MU cars MA-1H numbered 1304-1333 and MA-1J (100 pairs) numbered 1334-1533 are currently in use.
I've seen the Arrow 2's near the rail shop & maintenance yard for PATH just outside Harrison and they were for sale. I guess SEPTA took them all and "rebuilt" them to better MU's. By the way, NJT is not in the business of scrapping anything.
The Comet 2 Fleet is being rebuilt by a company out in the Chicago area (I think) and are newly #'ered 5300-5396 and look just like Comet IV's.
If you ride the Arrow 3's, you can pick up a yellow take-one at one of their ads inside the train and that will give you everything you need to know.
Anything else? just reply to me.
Hope this helps...
Railfan Pete
So why wouldn't NJT keep them around considering the heavy traffic.
Those new cars are years off?
From reliable sources. At about 1800 on Tuesday 7/3 an R-142A in service around Hunts Point Ave., on the express track dropped its trip cock assembly forcing the train to go BIE and stranding the passengers for about 1 hour. As a result all R-142As were pulled from service to be inspected and most were back in service by Wednesday. That is all. Anyone having more details please feel free to add.
Peace,
ANDEE
Scary...
Hopefully a one-time glitch, or they may have to start putting parts back into a few of the `Birds on the scrap line...
Its the second time it first happend on the 30 day test.
The parts just fell off?
SOrt of reminds you of the R-46's way back when.
This is what I love to hear, becuase now the R-46 is a pretty damn good car in the B-Division, so this only means that the R-142/R-142A can only progress from here!
Regards,
T.Lo
www.transitalk.com
I'm not sure which is more serious. A cracking truck or an emergency brake assembly becoming dislodged.
Well, the dislodged trip cock caused a BIE, a fail-safe mechanism.... we don't yet know what a cracked truck might have done...
a cracked truck would have caused a derailment. the car would fly off its bogie and into the beams causing mass destruction and injury. or if it is going slow, just injury. look at what happened with the almond joys in 1989 1990 (i cannot remember the year) anyway, looking at the way the truck of the R-142A is designed, it looks like it contains flaws.
I've always known that those R-142As suffered from poor build quality, with the interior noise, rough ride, and bad brakes. Now components falling out from underneath while in service for the second time in a year???
What the heck is Kobe and Yonkers sending us???
Judging by Train Dude's post about all the Redbirds being ordered removed from the Westchester yard, apparently, operations doesn't think the problem is too serious (or someone's nostalgic for the train shortages caused by the Rockwell truck fiasco of the late 1970s)
Not all Redbirds are off the 6, just the R36's. The R29's are still running.
Fine by me. The last R-29 I took on the 6 (8605) actually had colder air-conditioning than the R-142 I took later, while the R-36WF car was barely putting out any cold air at all. If all the Westchester yard cars are bound for the scrap line with no chance of reprieve from the governor (or anyone else up the MTA food chain), at this time of year send the ones with the weakest AC first.
I'm pretty sure they were joking.
Wayne
They've gotta increase the torque...
-Hank
I was on the #6 R-142A when it "went into emergency". After a very long time we were told "something fell off the bottom of the train and that put the brakes in emergency. The total wait was over 1 1/4 hrs. Eventually we were told "about 8 transit workers on the track were able to tie the 'thing that fell' onto the train, and the train was them directed into Hunts Point station (first door only) where we all slow made are way off." The passengers in my car took it pretty well, maybe because the lighting and air conditioning were great.
It is a design defect. Look at how the trip assembly is mounted.
Every time the axle goes up or down, the assembly is stressed
because part of it is hung from the truck frame.
Will reopen. This according to new advertisements on the Path Vision (or whatever they call them) monitors. "A whole new SIDE to PATH" is the tag line on the ads. I guess they will use the side platform for 33rd/Hoboken (northbound) service and the center platform for JSQ/WTC (southbound) service.
Let's face it, Dave, they are going to need it when J.P. Morgan Chase starts moving 3000 or so people to 2 new office buildings starting next January. While obviously not all 3000 will be using PATH I think that at least half will be.
That center platform is probably crowded enough as it is. The side platform will probably be used only during weekdays.
The Pavonia platform is just nuts during rush hours. I've never seen a NYCT station THAT crowded!
Bowling Green was like that until they created the side platform way back in 1976.
And historically speaking, the stories are/were that the express [i.e. bridge line]platforms at Canal St on the BMT were DANGEROUSLY crowded at rush hour before the Canarsie line was extended to East NY,as people using the BMT from East NY going to uptown Manhattan drag all the way in on the Broadway el to Canal, then transfer to the uptown lines at Canal........ I would also love to see what the platform at 72nd St on the IRT was like in the 20's.......
I've been there several times on weekend trips (Saturday afternoons), dangerously crowded even then, especially near the exit (north) end.
They SHOULD use the side platform; and use it for MANHATTAN bound trains, not Hoboken ones.
wayne
From Pavonia/Newport, WTC is southbound and 33rd street is northbound.
Kind of hard to put both those services on the northbound track, especially since PATH has no crossovers.
Apparently under the new plan, service to Hoboken and 33rd street will be from the northbound (newly opened) platform. Service to WTC and Journal Square will remain from the center island platform.
That's a pain if you don't care where in Manhattan you end up. I guess it's unavoidable.
Sorry what I meant was 33rd Street I forgot that the southbound trains DO wind up in Manhattan - at World Trade Centre.
wayne
They should use it everyday. I have been to that Station everytime I go to Newport Mall. And the Phatform is NARROW that on weekends that there are alot of people waiting and the Phatform is so NARROW that it's HARD to get thorgh. The front is the worst part of the Station that I try to go to the back. And the 33 St-Journal Square Line needs more Trains running. It seems like every time I get on a 33 St-Journal Square Line train on a Weekend. There are NO SEATS!! Bad enough that I with my Grandma and she have to suffer standing up until 14 St.
Your grandmother (and others) also need more accessible (elevator equipped) sations on the NY side. I've been meaning to write to PATH regarding this. Access can be shared with MTA if architecturally appropriate and possible at agiven station (eg elevators and ramps lead to both IND and PATH platforms).
Actually, all his grandmother really needs is a little bit of courtesy from the other riders.
That be good. BUT at the 33 St side of 14 St needs WIDER STAIRS and better connections to the 6 Ave Subway so like that People don't have to go outside and go back under to get the Subway. Also the 9 St stop Needs anouther Exit and WIDER HALLWAYS and STAIRS. At those stops. The stairs and the Hallways are PACKED and it's inpossable to go ahead of other People. Also PATH should put more seats in the trains. I hopeing the new PATH cars would have MORE Seats.
I agree with you.
OK.
No, PATH is a high capacity rail system and more seats would mean a fewer number of people you are able to cram on each train.
Maybe he would like them to buy cars that are wider and longer so that they could fit more seats.
At 14st, there is a great connection between the southbound subway and the south(west)bound PATH. At 23st, there is a great connection between the northbound PATH and the northbound subway. The only reason anyone would need a better connection is if they were planning on reversing direction, and the best station to pull that would be at 9th st / W4th.
What about the L and 1/2/3/9 at 14th? (Granted, the latter is a full avenue block away, but 14th is still the best connection point from the 33rd-bound PATH.)
Access can be shared with MTA . . . .
The subway doesn't serve Christopher and 9th Streets any more. "33rd Street" already has elevators, one of them just north of the connection between PATH and the subway. That leaves 14th and 23rd Streets. I'm not sure, but I don't think there are full width mezzanines at either of these stations. Without a mezzanine that crosses 6th Avenue above the platforms, you have a geometry problem.
"The subway doesn't serve Christopher and 9th Streets any more. "33rd Street" already has elevators, one of them just north of the connection between PATH and the subway. That leaves 14th and 23rd Streets. I'm not sure, but I don't think there are full width mezzanines at either of these stations. Without a mezzanine that crosses 6th Avenue above the platforms, you have a geometry problem."
That does present a problem, doesn't it. Would a mezzanine extension work? As to Christopher St and Ninth Street, those are stations where PATH will have to go it alone... (Which NYCT service went there?)
Which NYCT service went there?
None. The Greenwich Street El had a stop at Christopher and the Sixth Avenue El had a stop at 8th Street.
The 9th Street station is a block and a half away from the 8th/Waverly exit of the West 4th Street station.
There used to be an El station right upstairs from the H&M at Christopher Street. I'm not sure how close the nearest 6th Ave El entrance was to the 9th Street H&M station.
As for mezzanine extension possibilities, I'll have to go take a look and report back.
Hooking up Ninth St. on PATH to the IND West Fourth Street station would be a nightmare, since the PATH trains have the A/C/E tracks right above them and the B/D/F/Q tracks right below at the Sixth Ave./Greenwich/Christopher/Eighth St. intersection.
If the PATH station had a side platform arrangement, it might be possible to run a stairway down to the Sixth Ave. platforms off the back platform walls, but the center platform arrangment means a conneting tunnel would have to snake above and around the 33rd St.-bound PATH tracks to the east of the uptown A/C/E tracks and then back down to meet the mezzanine level between the Sixth and Eighth Ave. tracks. Way too complex to justify, especially since a transfer at 23rd and Sixth to the F or even at 33rd to the B/D/Q/F/N/R would be a matter of repositioning a few fare control gates.
A transfer at 14th supposedly would just involve knocking a hole in the back wall of the F platforms, the same way they knocked a hole in the wall at Bleeker 40 years ago to create the transfer between the downtown 6 train and the Sixth Ave. lines.
I take it you mean the wall between each local subway track and the corresponding PATH platform, turning the PATH platform into an island with the PATH on one side and the TA on the other? Hmm. Interesting idea.
That would be an idea if the Daily News' suggestion from a few months ago that PATH go to a $1.50 fare and adopt Metrocard were implemented -- no need for the barriers in that case, since the two systems would be able to handle free transfers (they could even poke a couple of holes in the floor of the 1/9 Cortlandt St. station and hook it up with the WTC station for PATH two levels down).
As far as ADA compatability, 33rd and 14th would be the easiest to handle, while 23rd St. would require up to six elevators -- street to fare control, fare control to F local track underpass tunnel and underpass to PATH platform -- to make it work. As for Ninth Street, like I said, the connection that it would require just for a non-ADA transfer makes the effort not worthwhile.
OK, so PATH could make an effort and arrange ADA access at 14th Street and 9th Street, (and Christopher, budget permitting, and leave 23rd St alone. Not every stop would be ADA-compliant, but now you'd have three or four on the 33rd St line which would be. That would be acceptable.
How long will you think it will take them to toss in an elevator?
And, wasn't the side platform open briefly during the rehab? I remember when I was very young (under 6) standing there (or at least I have an image in my mind that can only exist if I was standing there).
If the side platform is tp be the only access for north-bound trains, an elevator will be essential for those in wheelchairs.
Actually, I just thought of a potentially million-dollar savings idea. Have handicapped people wait on the island platform by the first car, and have them alert the C/R while the train is in the station (yes, I know the C/R will be on the wrong side, maybe have a bell attached to a pillar or something). The C/R would key them in. Cheaper and faster to implement than a new elevator.
BTW: Keep in mind the handicapped are much more intelligent riders than your average Joe, they have to be considering the "bountiful" accomodations they are given at NYCT stations. To get from 50th st to Howard beach, for example, requires them to go to Far Rockaway and then reverse. To get from Howard Beach to 50st, they have to go to 175st and reverse.
Good idea. However, now that you suggest making Pavonia a flag stop for people in wheelchairs, I think I have the perfect solution: have people in wheelchairs use the passenger assistance telephone on the island platform to request north-bound service. The next train to the correct destination can be alerted by radio.
That is the perfect solution! (as the PA continues to finance the planning of the construction of a new elevator).
What do you want to bet that it doesn't meet ADA requirements. Sigh!
That's a half measure. Cheaper, maybe. But it misses the point. An elevator makes it easier for everyone to use a subway.
Do you guys know anyone who is:
-In a wheelchair
-Using a walker
-Using a cane or crutches
-Elderly and has poor balance
-under treatment for congestive heart disease
-suffering from chronic lung disease from smoking
-Diabetic with foot ulcers
-has sarcoidosis, or asthma
-Obese
-Has a chronic leg injury or bad back
-Traveling with a child in a stroller
-Carrying shopping bags or suitcases
All these people benefit greatly from an elevator - in fact, many couldn't use the subway without it.
The real access problem with Pavonia/Newport, in case you've never been there, is the humongous ramp from the mezzanine level to the base of the escalators. An elevator already exists from the surface to the base of the escalators and from the mezz to the platform. That ramp is quite a hike, even for the able bodied. Sports teams could use it for practice to build stamina.
Bring back the people mover!
I've walked that ramp! It is very long.
There is a plan to build another exit somewhere, that would bring you across the street and closer to the mall. The PA officials were at a recent ERA meeting, and mentioned this plan.
After Busfest I decided to take a little joy ride of my own. Ofcause I was with my dad who keeped asking me Don't I see enouth trains for one week. Anyway I got on a Southbound No.2 at Boro Hall which was an R33 Redbird so I got my front window all the way to Flatbush. It seemed like they must of slowed down the timers on TK1 North of Nevins. Then we arrived at Flatbush Ave at 5:20PM and all I seen was Redbirds. I seen some of the crews who first reaction was What in the world am I doing at Flatbush on my day off. Well I told them I was taking a joy ride and they said I was nuts. Well an R142 came in finally and I got on that train which made a 5:58PM out of Flatbush. I rode by the C/R in car 6310 and taken the train to 14 Street. I notice as we were leaving Flatbush some of the lights blinked. Then at Atlantic Ave when we made the stop some of the lights went out and then back on as we were leaving the station. I didn't think that was suppose to happen. One other note who ever program the computer made an error by programing it as a weekday run when the weekend program should be used so that the right transfer points are given.
>>>Well I told them I was taking a joy ride and they said I was nuts. <<<
Get used to that.
Peace,
ANDEE
I saw a A DE30 Moving one LIRR Bi level Cab car. Then Trains were seriously delayed! They had a Long beach Train at Jamaica with the Train to Far Rockaway! U know someone had to wait!
I saw a A DE30 Moving one LIRR Bi level Cab car. Then Trains were seriously delayed! They had a Long beach Train at Jamaica with the Train to Far Rockaway! U know someone had to wait! Also they got Babylon Trains stopping at St Albans! Not to mention i did See a DE30 stoppping at Queens Village!!!
You'll see those DE30's every day this summer, as they are regularly scheduled runs from Hollis and Queens Village during the Main Line track rehab. They originate on the Oyster Bay line and operate during the AM rush. I believe there are either two or three Oyster Bay trains making Hollis and Queens Village during the rehab.
Although St Albans is listed on the West Hempstead branch, it has generally been served by Babylon trains.
CG
So the weirdness is not confined to the Ronkonkoma branch only. When I was going into the city one morning on the electric, we skipped Westbury, paused at Carle Place paused again at Mineola, New Hyde Park, OV, Hollis and Hillside. Now I try to ride the diesel from Mastic/Shirley because they sometimes run express from Babylon to Jamaica.
While getting of at brighton beach I saw a on the Side roll sign on the R40. I didn't know they have it. Took that pics. How do you post a pic on this board?.
Two ways, depending on the provider that is hosting the image:
First, if your provider allows images hosted on the space to be served to other web sites, like this one, you need to use the img HTML tag. Use the parameter SRC="location" to specify the location of the image.
Otherwise use the iframe HTML tage with the SRC="location" set to the HTML file where that picture is located.
A good example is this one:
{iframe width="100%" height="450" src="location"}
{/iframe}
Please note that all HTML tags require < and > at either end of the tag. In the above example, { and } are to be replaced by < and >, respectively.
When you want to write out tags for tutorial purposes, you can use [ampersand]lt and [ampersand]gt. That gives you < and >. Much easier.
Also, it's probably easier to just post a hyperlink to your picture. The format is <A HREF="Full http Address of Picture">
Dan
I forgot to mention, you have to make sure to close the tag. The full format is:
<A HREF="Full http Address of Picture"> Link Text Here </A>
Dan
I was looking at the list of films on the Bibliography on the site and noticed a glaring omission...what about SUBWAY STORIES, the HBO movie from a few years ago???
What HBO movie?
Peace,
ANDEE
HBO made a movie around '97 called Subway Stories Rosie Perez and Mercedes Reuhl were 2 of quite a few stars in it. It was a compilation of about 10 true stories of things that happened on the Subway each directed by a different famous director, including Jonathan Demme. It's available on BN.com (VHS)
IIRC Jerry Stiller was in one of the stories playing an angel.
Or so it would seem, based on the ridiculous ad I saw on the side of a bus on Christopher Street a short time ago. The ad, for a woman's deodorant called Dove, proclaims in large blue letters "THIS BUS BRAKES FOR EXQUISITE ARMPITS."
Oy vey.
Peter,
There is a whole slew of ads like that. Those ads have bene running for almost a month.
It could be worse - they might have ads with Rudy's picture on them.
Yeah, or one of the clowns who are looking to replace him.
I'll take ANY one of those clowns in a heartbeat, so long Rudy!!!!
I'll take ANY one of those clowns in a heartbeat, so long Rudy!!!!
The circus is fun. A lot more fun that somebody who can actually run a city.
Things could be much worse. Who knows what Madison Ave. will come up with.
Oh, I still love the Planed Parenthood one. Black background, and just the words:
"Ohhh....Ohhh.... Oops!"
With a little blurb on their "emergency" contraceptive, and of course the usual "and other alternatives" (read: abortion) line.
I'm hardly a PP fan (or a right to life fan, for that matter), but I wih i could have scored one of these ads, I think they were funny...
What about the one where the bus is "wrapped" (there are ads over the windows as well as the metal exterior) with arrows pointing at where people's heads would be saying "This guy is checking his stocks using our wireless internet service."
How about the early wrap that included on top of the bus "Get Back To Work".
Mr t__:^)
Those ads are all over the subway plaforms too. But I'll be damned if I can remember what they're for. Guess the campaign is not that successful.
Peace,
ANDEE
I think the worst ad right now is the ad for "King Cobra" malt something or other. It's a picture of a can of this stuff obscuring most of a naked woman, looking out of the poster with a strange expression on her face. It's somewhere between seductive and embarassed. The caption reads "There MIGHT be SOMETHING for YOU under my LABEL." Or something like that.
I think this is one of the most tasteless ads I've ever seen.
Dan
Oh that's nothing. There's an ad on many buses and some trains of a new clothing line coming out, one in which a woman is lying on top of a guy (both in their twenties) and is wearing pants with the belt holders shredded off and the top of her a** prominent.
Nice way to sweep wayward youth off their feet, isn't it?
To quote H.L Mencken: "Nobody ever went broke underestimating the taste of the American Public."
Yep, the "give the people what they want" arguement, even if what they want is poisonous.
I work at a rather huge ad agency holding company - and lemme tell ya, advertising revenue is way off these days. I can only fear stupidier, even lower budge looking ads will come (like them elsewhere-mentioned 'king cobra' ads).
There have been some funny ones over the years.. that recent peanut campaign was kinda fun, and them yellow pages ads back in the early 90's were damn good (the ones with the random photos and no other explaination).
working hard or hardly working? <-- there's another bad one
Those "Babies are back" Bronx Zoo- er, New York Zoological Society- ads are puzzling. Did they KNOW all these cute baby animals were going to be born on June 24? Were they all shipped from their native locales to the Zoo on June 24? The sight of all the 'baby' accessories next to the appropriate species could be construed as cute or ludicrous. I vote for the latter.
For a long time the TA was running its own ads promoting safety. Every time I see that ad advising passengers to avoid tripping or falling, I feel disappointed. Here I was in the MOOD to take a nice header-
This is my theory, has anyone notice that everytime there are those saftey advertisements, the crime rate goes up? Is it a bad coincidince? I think those signs cause crime and unsafe conditions for some reason.
i past by corona yard today while riding on the 7 back from school. i did not see no silver train except the EP working car which was a few feet behind from a few cars. maybe they took it inside? i just know i did not see an r62a there
That may not have been what they saw. Mind you, you can't see all of Corona Yard from the 7 train.
:-) Andrew
oh ok. so does anybody have a picture of it?? i want to see it
If you want to see it, take the 7 to Willets Pt. and walk over the bridge towards Flushing Meadow Park. Midway across you can see nearly all of the yard, as well as the outside of the bus depot.
Dan
PS: I didn't see it either.
i cant. i went and it was closed. isnt it always closed?? they only open it when the U.S open comes
If it was closed, leave the station, walk across Roosevelt Ave. and into the park. By the tennis stadium is the ramp up to the bridge from the other end. I go up there when I ride my bike in Flushing Meadow Park.
Dan
::GASP!!::.... It's an EP WORKING CAR!!!!!!
So much for the hysteria...
hell i saw that car back in 1999 LOL !!! how bout that trevor logan ..??
i think people got confused. they saw an EP worker and thought it was a r62
It is odd that the origial poster mistook a workmotor for an R-62A since the only resemblance is the stainless steel shell. What's more amazing is that the original poster also confused the car # EPXX for car #2155. #2155? where did that ccome from?
First time this thread appeared, I read the subject...
and muttered to myself "ep work train car".... and
woop-de-doo!!... turns out I was right... and
the best part is......I didn't even hafta call Miss Cleo!!
well she is working on this already SOUTH FERRY !! right on my brother see you this fall !!
redbird jihad !!
I saw the EP work cars at Corona since at least 1998, maybe even '96.
yep ! my man !!! Lol !!!
You heard me right. Here we all are eagerly (?) awaiting the July edition and the MTA goes ahead and makes a November 2001 available (well at least the Manhattan part).
I picked up the latest copy of the Official NYC guide book published by NYC & Co. (the old Convention & Visitors Bureau). Within the confines of this book there is a Manhattan Subway Map. The Map has November 2001 on it. It shows the F via 63rd St, the V via 53rd St and all the Manhattan Bridge changes.
To cover themselves they put in a "balloon" caption indicating that the map is showing what the service will be starting in November and that customers should look at current maps for current service.
You should be able to find this guide book at any tourist info area. If not, NYC & Co. is located at 810 7th Av (just south of 53rd St).
The guidebook has a picture of the Statue of Liberty on the cover.
I find it amazing, sometimes the MTA is slow with the information distribution and sometimes they get months ahead.
Speaking of MB changes, before I forget, The MTA has reformatted the web pages for the upcoming changes. They now have individual infomation pages for each of the 4 boros affected. That may explain the earlier version indicating "information to the right".
i saw a whole bunch of MTA workers putting up new signal lights on the 7. it starts around 111 st. this is for CBTC right?
I doubt it. The CBTC technology hasn't been tested and proven on the L Line yet.
You probably won't see CBTC on the seven line for at least 10 years. The L line is getting it first and it has not even been fully installed there yet.
Peace,
ANDEE
(i saw a whole bunch of MTA workers putting up new signal lights on the 7. it starts around 111 st. this is for CBTC right?)
A conventional signal rehab, but CBTC ready. Another project will be starting up to redo the rest of the Flushing line the same way.
If CBTC works, the Flushing line will be number 2 or 3 on the list for CBTC. Remember, CBTC doesn't HAVE visible signals. The signal is radioed inside the train. But visible signals will also be put in for a while as the subway car fleet transitions from regular to CBTC -- you still need a way for non-CBTC cars to use the tracks.
you still need a way for non-CBTC cars to use the tracks.
Who needs signals? If the train keeps moving, the coast is clear. If it stops suddenly, it just hit a red.
All forms of railroading will always need signals at interlockings. With the current trend towards wireless everything, interfereance (both in and un tentional) will start to become a problem. Transmission using a physical medium is more secure and less prone to disruption. This is why I am an advocate of coded track circut signaling instead of CBTC. I also don't feel you should signal perminent speed restrictions. Signals translate variable track conditions, not static ones.
I'm curious as to what type of signaling NYCT installing on the #7. It is colored lights or position lights. Do they plan to delete the trip arm and upgrade the automatic train stop system, or will they use ASC like the LIRR?
They are most likey just upgrading the signals head to a newer type. The TA won't do A full upgrade on the signals untill they can figure out the CBTO works on the "L" line. This is the be the next time the line gets a compleat upgrade.
Robert
No, CBTC has normal signals but when under CBTC, the highest green light flashes to denote that it's in CBTC mode.
Just posted today - train operator - SIRT. No test. Main requirement is a clean driver's lic. for the past 5 years. Salary $36,535 to 48,708. I don't know how many positions. Job posting #001105. Filing closes 7/30/01
No union; not civil service; 2 weeks vacation; no sick time. 'Nuf said.
...and where wood one find the listing for such a job?????
No union?
No civil service?
No sick time?
No way.
Mind you the 2 weeks vacation part made the job an automatic throw out for a TA man. But the rest of you should consider it.
No sick days, no union, forget it!
If possible TD, could you post the link (if any) for the job? I personally am not interested, but I'd like to post it on the bulletin boards in the event that someone else would be interested.
The posting is not on the MTA website (external). I found it on the internal website. Anyone interested can get a copy at 130 Livingston St., 370 Jay St., 1250 B'Way, 347 Madison Ave or Bay St. in Staten Island.
Just posted today - train operator - SIRT. No test. Main requirement is a clean driver's lic. for the past 5 years.
Why the driver's license requirement? Many NYC residents don't have licenses, and the five-year requirement in particular will prevent them from applying.
I believe that in Boston, all operators (rapid transit and light rail) are required to obtain Class B Commercial Driver Licenses (CDLs) with P (Passenger) and Air Brake endorsements. That's in case substitute bus service is required -- they can shift out of the cab into the driver's seat. [Boston T Party, is that correct?]
C'est la gare'.
C'est la gare'.
?
"C'est le guerre" = That's war. Meaning: that's war, what else would you expect? Best said along with a very expressive shrug of the shoulders, with a sigh thrown in for good measure. :^)
Either Train Dude misspelled "guerre," or he was making a deliberate pun, since "gare" means station in French.
Is it because the R-44's in SIRTOA service have the optional five speed stick? :0)
Now if the Transit Museum gets too many examples of subway cars no longer in use, where will they go if expansion is needed? The current collection is nice, but with the redbirds going the way of the do-do birds, and other types of equipment waiting to go into retirement, what sort of expansion will have to take place? If the museum moves to another location, what will happen to the old Court Street Station? A connection to a new Brooklyn-Manhattan line would be a welcome addition, right folks?
I agree. The real question is will NYCTA spend the money to expand the museum to display the current crop of retiring subway cars? I don't think so.
Probably like all museum collections the cars on display will be rotated periodically. I believe from postings on this board some of the cars are / will be kept at CI Yard.
I had posted the same question concerning the Transit Museum several weeks ago. The above would seem reasonable.
There is already a "Redbird" in the Museum - R33 WF # 9306, in its orginal blue color.
Whenever the Slants get retired, the Museum should definitely keep one in its rotation. (Hopefully a whole trainful for fan trips.) Also, the R44, and my favorite car, the R46. They look alike, but were made by different companies, and I was told they differ somewhat mechanically.
(The R46 is my favorite car, due to all those childhood "F" train trips I took.)
They could reroute the #6 and store a bunch of cars in the City Hall station...when they finally open it up as a museum............
As that was an IRT station, I don't think the B-size cars, especially the 75-footers, would fit in there.
I wanted to specify the 75-footers in particular because of the curved track.
Or perhaps the A-Division samples at City Hall, and B-Division samples at the Museum in Brooklyn (after all, an old, disused IND station)?
How about the lower level at Brooklyn Bridge-City Hall BMT Station as a museum annex?
9th ave lower level has 3 X 600' tracks.
Just extend the current musem a little thats all. It was weird because I was thinking about that on my way to work this morning. They could use the relay tracks at the lower level of City Hall Station on the N and R lines. Those tracks for the most part just dead-end in each direction. Yeah they raise up to meet the local tracks, so the musem cars can have instant access to the rest of the system. So.....whats wrong with that idea?
I like the idea someone had of connecting the BMT and IRT City Hall stations. The IRT station would be the centerpiece of the museum, and the BMT station would hold the cars.
It's a nice idea, but it wouldn't gain much display space -- unless your proposal is to have one branch under City Hall, another branch on Schermerhorn Street, etc.
Thanks for remembering. My idea was run a tunnel from the south end of the BMT lower level beneath City Hall Park to the IRT City Hall Station, which would allow small exhibits both in the connecting tunnel and in the IRT station, along with showing people the city's first subway station as a "living museum" with trains still running through it (which would also require putting in some noise lowering glass walls next to the platform to keep the squealing down to a minimum and to keep any stray museum-goers from accidentally getting in the way of the No. 6 train).
The connection at the south end of the City Hall platform would allow all three lower level tracks to hold cars and for them to be moved in and out at any time. That would allow four to seven more trains to be on display than there are now (I'm assuming the lower platform at City Hall is old-time BMT length of 480 feet and not 600 like Court Street is), while making the museum more accessable to the general public, since it would be downstairs at an operating station and not located at a seperate enterance the way it current is at Court Street.
N and R trains could still use the lower level tracks north of City Hall for lay-ups, though I would think with the changeover on the Manny B traffic there would be less of a need to lay-up trains between Canal and City Hall than there is now, which would help solve some of the space sharing problem.
I don't know if the MTA could get a downtown Manhattan Transit Museum done in 2 1/2 years (once the terrorist bomb-fearing Rudy is out of City Hall), but it would be nice if they could put a rush job on the project and get it completed in time for the 100th anniversary of the subway in 2004.
Original BMT platforms, from some old literature I read in old issues of Engineering News-Record on microfilm at the Science, Industry & Business Library on Madison and 34th, were 530’ (some platforms being as short as 495’) – platform lengthening to (mostly) 615’ was pretty much done throughout the 1960’s and early ’70’s, I.I.N.M. Dual Contracts–era IRT platforms were 480’, and the original 1904-era platforms were 200’ for local and 350’ for express; all such platforms were lengthened, in the end, between c.1947 and the late 1960’s, to 525’.
The current museum platform – and believe me, I counted the chaining codes from beginning to end – stands, from end to end, 600’ long — sixty feet less than most IND stations. If it were 660’, there’d be, I suppose, one additional subway car on each platform.
I.I.N.M., in the last few years the only new addition to the cars currently on display at the Museum was R-16 #6387.
I hate to say this, but I think this is wishful thinking. Unless pushed very hard by the NY Times or oother influentials, nothing's liley to be saved of the married-apir Redbirds or Slants, etc., and they're certainly not likley to devote more space to the museum.
Their interest are in cutting costs, and if they had their way, I'm sure they'd shut down more existing lines. Giving up the City Hall storage space, even if there's enough lay-up capacity between there and City Hall, they ain't gonna do.
I'd love to be wrong about this. But I've heard it said that when you're a pessimist, you're never disappointed. You're either validated or pleasantly surprised!
Persaonnlly, I think the cars most worth saving are of course, Redbirds, Salnt R40s, and R32s. Maybe our friends at Shorelin can help out....
>>>...when you're a pessimist, you're never disappointed. <<<
Ain't THAT the TRUTH
Peace,
ANDEE
This was on my mind last night. Here's what I came up with:
The tracks at the Transit Museum lead to two dedicated platforms at Hoyt-Schermerhorn. Both tracks, between Court and H-S, could be filled with old cars without getting in the way of revenue service.
My idea is to extend the Court platform east, with removable bridges over the crossover just east of the station, splitting into two platforms where the A/C tracks come in and continuing to the H-S platforms. The current entrance to the museum would be closed. Museum patrons would pay the admission fee on the H-S mezzanine, proceed to one of the outer platforms, and walk to Court, where they could go up to the mezzanine to see the exhibits there. They'd then go back to the platform and go to the other outer platform at H-S, exiting the museum there. Both tracks would be lined with museum cars.
Of course, this isn't possible if the tracks between the two stations are close together -- anybody know if they are?
One incidental benefit is that the museum entrance would be inside an existing subway station. That would make the museum easier to get to and would give museum patrons a free ride home after their visit. It would also automatically advertise the museum to every Brooklyn A/C/G rider passing through the station.
They could have removable bridges (or open offside doors) to lead people to the catwalk (with a railing or fence), for a passageway between the two stations. The exhibits would only be within the confines of Hoyt and Court st stations. The entrance at Court would be retained, but they would use a HEET at the stairs to the side platforms, modified to deduct the museum's admission for entry, and since the stairs are within the fare control anyone who exits there gets a free ride home. The only annoying thing would be that it would be a long walk to switch platforms at Hoyt (though it would be interesting).
And what, pray tell, is wrong with the idea of RUNNING a museum train between the Court Exhibits and the H-S exhibits!
Now *there* is an idea that should fly!
Elias
Yeah, resurrect the Court St. Shuttle.
A very substantial part of the museum's revenue comes from the gift shop. This is one reason why fan trips make a stop there.
So, you could fill up one of the two tracks to Hoyt-Schermerhorn, e.g. the north track (A2).
A single car shuttle between the two stations would be real nice (grown of the motors, the ceiling fans turning, etc.), but who would operate it ? A TA operator ? I don't think the museum could afford that & I dought the TWU would allow even retired employees at the controls.
Mr t__:^)
A very substantial part of the museum's revenue comes from the gift shop. This is one reason why fan trips make a stop there.
So move the gift shop to the Hoyt mezzanine.
So, you could fill up one of the two tracks to Hoyt-Schermerhorn, e.g. the north track (A2).
Why not fill up both tracks?
A single car shuttle between the two stations would be real nice (grown of the motors, the ceiling fans turning, etc.), but who would operate it ? A TA operator ? I don't think the museum could afford that & I dought the TWU would allow even retired employees at the controls.
Really, what's the point? The stations are two or three blocks apart. That track space would be better used for more exhibits.
A running shuttle would likely force all the cars off one of the tracks at Court. If we're expanding capacity, why not go all the way and expand capacity to two tracks in and between two stations?
[Why not fill up both tracks?]
A1 for trains to arrive at museum, A2 for addl. displays.
[A running shuttle would likely force all the cars off one of the tracks at Court. If we're expanding capacity, why not go all the way and expand capacity to two tracks in and between two stations?]
My point was ... give tourists another reason to visit the museum, i.e. a short ride on an old train. Also you don't have to have the ENTIRE collection on disply all at one location, e.g. some of the "arch roof" cars could be in the shop being restored ... the Lo-Vs are getting a final check out before their trip, etc.
Mr t__:^)
What are the advantages and disadvantages of the different type of roadbeds and ties? I've noticed that putting the rails right on the concrete roadbed is the smoothest (a la 63rd St.). How much would it cost for the MTA to replace all of the roadbeds with concrete?
Dan
This type of track (putting rails right on the concrete) has been classified as Type VIII track. A different type of Type VIII design is omnipresent in the 57th Street–6th Avenue station. You will notice, however, that between 21st Street–Queensbridge and 36th Street, they use the conventional Type II track design (wooden half-ties imbedded in concrete). Since the IND construction in the 1920’s, the depth of roadbeds (from the so-called “base of rail” barometer) was set from end to end at 14”. (Whereas on the full-tie roadbeds on earlier underground track, it was 14” at the center and 12” on each end, and on the original 1904 IRT tracks the depth was a mere 10”, which explains why they use 5” deep ties on the 72nd Street–Broadway reconstruction project.)
In terms of having all the tracks as all-concrete, I’d venture it’d be more expensive than the tried-and-true half-ties in concrete construction.
i went up the ramp today in my bike. all i saw was a whole bunch of deadbirds and 3 silver cars and they were the EP working cars. thats it. i dont know if you people saw a EP car and thought it was an r62 or that car is inside the garage or somthing happened to it. i saw NO r62a in the yard
and if there is a r62a please take a picture of it and post it. i really want to see it.
@...thank you ! ( me too ) !!
how about a pnoto trevor logan ?
@...thank you ! ( me too ) !!
how about a photo trevor logan ?
I have reviewed with interest the sub talk comments re: the Third Avenue El - Manhattan but MOSTLY Bronx. As one who rode it IN MANHATTAN and Bronx
frequently,and lived 100 feet from an uptown
Manhattan stationhouse of the El, I feel some
facts are in order;
EL A HAZZARD TO AUTO TRAFFIC - auto traffic in the eary to mid 50's in upper Manhattan was a tiny fraction as to what is has become from the 1970's to present (2001) Most of the human traffic in rush hours were carried by the 3rd Ave El Express and local trains on the el quickly & reliably ABOVE the
avenue - and the streetcars ( to Nov. 1946)and later red and cream MACK Surface Transportation System
busses carried the balance of short haul commuters.
During the day, traffic was light - mosty delivery
trucks, taxis (those huge old DeSoto Barges) and
the occasional neighbor with his car on the street for local errands. After 8PM the avenue and sidestreets were quiet - not as unbelievably noisy and hectic as my old Yorkville ex-neighborhood is presently ALL day until 3AM - reminds me of Times Square on a summer Friday night! Drivers-- as was society back then-- were more conservative and responsible - most people (especially under age 30) didnt own a car - and those that did kept them parked most of the time to save their parking space during the day - and took the EL (or subway on Lex) to get to work.
The explosion of 30 + story apartment buildings on
the Avenue (as other avenues have seen also) have jammed more people into square footage than the tenements ever did---and the busses along Third Ave today are mired in gridlock traffic like all other
vehicles. The El moved people quickly and there were LESS people per capita in the 50's along 3rd
Ave.
That little "greaser' Mayor LaGuardia, despised the
els and streetcars. He infact caused legislation to be passed outlawing pre-century (steam era) Els
and streetcar lines by mid 1960. What his back door connections to the General Motors Bus Div, Oil and Rubber Tire Cartels were - we wont know for sure - but GM was known to be instrumental in eliminating any form of non-bus (ie RAIL) transport from most
US Cities (remember National City lines - etc.)
The City back in BRT Hylands' day (he a Mayor of the City back in the BRT days) was interested in the
City Takeover of public rail transit - and that ongoing mentality is probably what caused the City
powers not to ever allow either the IRT or BMT a fare increase thru their corporate lifetimes. If you
want to buy a company cheaply - and can control how that company gets its revenues -you do what the City did and with no fare raises since 1904 (the 5 cent fare) - the IRT and BMT went Bankrupt. In June 1940
the City picked up both and with the City's own competing IND Line - formed the N Y City Transit
System under the NYC Board of Transportation.
Laguardia got his wish by shutting down the 9th & 2nd Ave els (2nd above 60th St) and the BMT Fulton Street El from east NY to Brooklyn Bridge. It is common knowledge that a good portion of the 6th Ave. El scrap steel and all of the 60th Street to Harlem River 2nd ave. El steel was sold to Japan pre-
WWII - and it is suspected that Japan sent us back a part of that steel in Pearl Harbor Bombs. Our TAX
DOLLARS at work even back then.
Anyway - the City made money on transit during the WWII years with tremendous ridership figures - and of course, on any remaining routes desired to be abandoned - only the most rudimentary upkeep was done. This affected the Third Ave El without doubt.
After the War, the City started talking about a 2nd Ave. subway to replace the el - and studies were
gotten underway. However, the City wanted out of the El, but public pressure to keep it UNTIL it was
replaced was quite evident. This type of pressure from Queens kept the 2nd Ave. EL below 59th Street - but LaGuardia found a loophole in the war scrap drive and offered the remaining part of that EL to the War Board with flag waving patriotic tactics
ie: it would be UN-AMERICAN to keep that el for those who needed it in light of the good of the country - his crock of S--- considering he beat the drums for years before the war to get rid of the els and trolleys! Of course, mid 1942 was the end of the remainder of 2nd Ave. El, as we know thanks to the Little (weed) Flower.
With deferred maintenance, the 3rd Ave. EL in 1950 still scored high marks in ridership fares despite
a drop in mass transit ridershiip countrywide as Americans took to their autos again - so how to get rid of the El when it was generating significant
income with deferred maintenance --
STEP A -- Close down the very busy South Ferry
Branch affecting tens of thousands of daily AM & PM
rush hour riders from the teeming Wall Street areas
affecting ferry Riders to points north and the local
working class office-workers in the area. This was done in late 1950. Let them take the IRT subway nearby- we still get their fares but it doesnt go to the EL fare revenue records.
STEP B -- Close down the Bergen Cutoff of the El at the Bronx 143rd St Station - connecting the El to
the White Plains Road Line for ONE SEAT ride from downtown to those stations on the WH PL RD El. They
will take the IRT Lex subway for a one seat ride - we get their fare and the el fare records lose it.
STEP C -- close down in 1953 - the City Hall Branch from the El mainline at Chatham Square. Tens of Thousands of daily AM & PM commuters to Municipal Bldg, City Hall, the Courts, City Hall Post Office - surrounding office buildings - let them pay an EXTRA FARE for a bus along Park Row to the EL terminal at Chatham Square - then they can WALK UP the equivalent of 5 flights to the Stub-ended Chatham Square El Platform of the truncated ex-South ferry
3rd Ave.Line route. Nah --they will hop the IRT subway Lex line at Brooklyn Bridge to upper Manhattan or the Bronx 3rd Ave. El at 149th street for their EL rides north of there. And YESSS - we have an ESCALATOR for them at 149th Street to make it user friendly! That way, we can siphon more fare registers from the EL books - and we still get the
fares into our pockets via the LEX route fare figures - no loss to anything EXCEPT the El!
STEP D - Some plans were quitely proposed to the
NYCTS (soon to become the NYCTA) in 1952 to re-arrange the Chatham Square 3rd Ave. El terminal
facilities by running the el down south from Canal Street to the 3 lower level tracks - with center express track coming to a " Y " with the local tracks at the Division St. area - and running into the abandoned, ex 2nd Ave. EL LOWER LEVEL station
platform on the former South Ferry route structure - and under the present stub terminal above (at the 5th floor tenement building height) With the 2nd Ave. El gone, but over-sufficient under-track supporting girderwork in place at the junction area -this was feasible - It would entail re-tracking the
two lower level 2nd ave. track girder sets (tracks removed in late 1940's) and replacing some of the
removed platform planking on the lower level. The stationhouse at the Division St. end of the platform was still in use on the lower level for fare-goers
to pay and climb up to the top level. This arrangement would allow the entire upper level to be
removed from below Canal Street to the terminal's
southern end over St. James Street. Supplies in use on the upper level could be re-loacted (tracks,etc.)
to the lower level and the upper level scrap steel would pay for the project in salvage money.
NOOOOPE --- too accomodating to the public - we want to INCONVENIENCE them when it comes to the 3rd Ave El. We WANT to get rid of -not encourage or
recapture - lost el ridership. Why give them a 2nd story platform access - let them go to the old 5 story high platform or USE THE LEX LINE. We STILL
get their fare!!
ANOTHER PLAN as a concession to closing the City Hall Branch - was to keep one OR BOTH of the City Hall Branch Chatham Square Station dual island-platforms (one to the south was the ex-2nd Ave Line 2 track platform - the north was the still used 3rd Ave Line platform - both sets at the same
2nd story level) as a NEW Chatham Square terminal by having the 3rd Ave El trains follow their usual lower level ramp tracks below Canal street into this proposed terminal. Then demolish the upper level
(South Ferry "Division St.Flyover")twin tracks and
5 story double deck St. James Street (ex South Ferry Branch) structure entirely --along with the Park Row City Hall branch beyond the new terminal platforms. The final plan would be to keep the existing 3rd ave. El City Hall Branch/ Chatham Square single platform as a 2-track terminal, and tear down the EX-2nd Ave El abandoned south platform and track structure along with the St. James and City Hall Park Row structures for a simple, cleaner more
compact arrangement. NOooooooo - we want the el to look disfigured, dismembered and unsightly - the more PR in our favor to have it torn down down ENTIRELY under blight removal. So these Park Row-Chatham Square community enhancement plans were
quietly proposed and just as quietly dismissed as--
'We are going to tear it down in a year or so anyway - so just sit tight!"
STEP E - The Final Blow - in 1953 (I think late
1953) the El CEASED ALL SERVICE below Bronx 149th Street Station ALL WEEKDAY NIGHTS (7PM appx to 6AM appx) + ALL WEEKENDS (7PM appx. Friday to 6AM Appx. Monday) and ALL PUBLIC HOLIDAYS. This was in effect to the final day May 12, 1955. Now this really drove
the last tens of thousands away. Not to mention the
late shift factory workers
Thanks for the rundown, Joe. The City just about "wrote the book" on slowly destroying a mass transit resource until complete abandonment was "the only feasible alternative."
Now they have a hard time even closing a single station. What comes around goes around.
That's a very interesting perspective. About the only thing not mentioned was the fact that the IND subway was planned to replace the elevated lines, particularly on Sixth and Ninth Avenues in Manhattan, and Fulton Street in Brooklyn.
"That little 'greaser' Mayor LaGuardia, despised the els and streetcars. He infact caused legislation to be passed outlawing pre-century (steam era) Els and streetcar lines by mid 1960. What his back door connections to the General Motors Bus Div, Oil and Rubber Tire Cartels were - we wont know for sure - but GM was known to be instrumental in eliminating any form of non-bus (ie RAIL) transport from most US Cities (remember National City lines - etc.)"
I don't know that LaGuardia had to be in anyone's back pocket to oppose els and streetcars. There were a lot of people at the time who honestly believed that els and streetcars were old-fashioned and obsolete and that a modern progressive city had to replace els with subways and streetcars with buses. NO mayor wants his city to be considered behind the times and hidebound.
The attitude that you had to have the latest thing and totally scrap the last thing was certainly not new. Remember that the streetcars were themselves the replacement for cable cars and horse cars once THEY were considered obsolete. For example, Chicago installed an extensive cable car system in the 1880s and '90s -- largest in the world -- and was replacing it with streetcar lines already by 1906!
And you REALLY don't want to go in the direction your "greaser" comment takes things!
Moses was also opposed to rail systems that's why he covered the whole city with those damm highways thats cloged to the hilt with cars and trucks, it was stated in a series on the highway system in New York he hated the rail transit systems,thought that they had no busness in cities,one of his underlings spoke in favor of the rail transit system and was fired on the spot,this was on a pbs ststion a few years ago,the power that people like this has should stop,have more groups of people decide what works best,it may take a little longer but we may be better off in the long run.
KARL- HI !! THIS RESPONSE WAS INTENDED TO RESPOND TO THE GENTLEMAN WHOSE NAME I CANT RECALL (he ended it with "ESQ.") but I patched it onto your thread in error and cant "re-paste" it to him without losing the text entirely. It is a response to him and NOT YOU - but thanks for your supportive posting - PS I am still looking for that photo in Ridgewood for you per your email to me - regards - Joe!
RESPONSE RE: 3rd Ave El / Mayor LaGuardia
While I can readily accept that LaGuardia for all
intents and purposes was a good mayor for the City and this is documented in many other aspects of his administrative policies and etc., he was somewhat short sighted in the needs of the people re: moving
large masses quickly, safely and economically.
YES - he built the IND systems which paralleled and replaced the 6th and 9th Ave. Els and the Fulton St. (BMT) El resulting in a more modern transit mode replacing those old els....but the East Side of Manhattan was growing steadily before and even more so AFTER the War (WWII) - and replacing Els and streetcars with busses was not cost effective. It is well known that streetcars lasted longer than busses
(do you see any 1940 era busses still plying the streets) but the very modern PCC car of the mid to
late 30's to late 40's were still running in many cities well into the 70's and 80's - and are still running in California !! Streetcars dont pollute - but besides that, back in the 30's and 40's, busses were small, cramped, slow while streetcars could move faster (accelerate faster) -handle more people than the busses of the time - and were far ahead of busses (PCC cars) in "modernity" for their time.
Its is strange that New york City government saw fit to want to remove them wholesale but many other cities, big cities, Ie: Boston, Phila, San Fran and Los Angeles to name a few (Pittsburgh, Pa) resisted
the bustitution movement and replaced old streetcars with the modern PCC types. I havent even mentioned CANADIAN CITIES still operating "old fashioned ??) streetcars of the PCC and newest light rail types. Northern New Jersey started a new streetcar light rail line - and many other cities have adapted to the newest LRV (light rail vehicles) streetcar technology.
When you want (Ie; City Government wants) to effect "urban renewal" - you dont take 20 blocks along one avenue - displace all the commercial and residential inhabitants - demolish everything along that stretch - and leave vacant lots for the next 40 years !!
This is what happened in a similar vein when the 2nd Ave. subway was promised - the 3rd Ave El was "set up" thru low end minimal maintenance and service cuts and route branch abandonments - to become viewed unfairly as the "problem" to be eradicated - and here we are almost 50 years AFTER the 2nd Ave Subway was (plans were) drawn up - and no subway. Yet the East Side of Manhattan has expolded in growth unlike any other part of Manhattan Island - and the remaining Lex subway facing its ONE HUNDREDTH anniversary in 2004 - is taxed to beyond capacity in 2001 !! While you are correct that I should not focus blame on LaGuardia - (and I really, honestly DO NOT) -- it is in fact history that LaGuardia in his haste to "modernise" the City transit infastructure - was part of the group of prior and later (to his administration) politico's who contributed to the congested roads via Mr.Moses of the TBTA and removal of quite well functioning transit lines BEFORE replacing them. Even as it
struggled under its 5 cent fare fiasco for 40 + years, the BMT was innovative in producing revolutionary "modern" transit sets (the Blue Bird fleet of 1936 - the Green Hornet set, the Budd
Zephyr set )- and was instrumental in development of the PCC car with the PCC Committee - New York Governrment powers-that-were rendered no support or assistance as the plan was to run these private operators out of business - capture the systems for the City to run - and do as it pleased - ie: remove
els without replacing them, and order twice as many busses to replace the streetcar fleet.
Getting back to our urban renewal theme above - what do you think the public would say if those houses I mentioned being removed resulted in vacant lots for
40+ years when NEW housing was promised to immediately replace the "old, antiquated eyesores?"
It is not so much with nostalgia for the 3rd Ave. El and its demise that is the focus of this subject - it is the fact that the money was earmarked in the mid 50's for a 2nd Ave. Subway - but the money was
re-directed to other projects in defiance of what
the East Side really needed - the el's replacement with that subway, just as was done with 6th, 9th and Fulton Street els. We havent even spoken about the 2nd Ave. El - it is fact that City government
rationalised the removal of THAT el because the 3rd Ave El and the Lex Subway could handle that lines'
riders. What was the "rationale" of tearing down the 3rd Ave El re: ITS REPLACEMENT (ie: replacement was never built) - just 40 years of promises, expensive surveys and studies one after another - and finally the powers that be that ran the City FOR THE PEOPLE went broke in the early 70's in the initial midst of starting that 2nd Ave. Subway - parts which have been abandoned for almost 30 years to date - taxpayer city, State & Federal funds
squandered. No, you are right - I should not have taken Laguardia to task - he was only a small gear in the machinery of government mentality that for all its assumed good intentions - was sorely misquided on many issues - probably with persons
who wanted to promote their own agendas. Mr. Moses with his unbelievably powerful political base -got
most if not all his road, highway and Bridge projects done - we have NEVER heard of highways closed and abandoned and not replaced - or bridges
removed and not replaced - that would be unthinkable but transit has always been a sort of "stepchild" .
Remember, the Els were built to replace the congested horse-drawn street traffic of the 1870's
and did their job well. There are still many els in
Bronx, Brooklyn & Queens - funny - the City never forced the New York Central RR to abandon its Park Avenue "EL & Viaduct" structures existing today from 96th Street to 132nd street. Chicago
retained its 1880 era downtown el and branch systems
and so did Philadelphia which just finished rebuilding a major portion of its "antiquated" 1915 el - and that line has the highest revenue loads of the system per SEPTA commuter figures -so who really is shortsighted??
In retrospect, it was unfair and presumptious of me
to lay this all on LaGuardia and in reviewing my
original text, I must extend an apology and offer
credulity to the man for the good he did accomplish
during his Mayoral years. Regarding Transit, he did
effect those IND subways which replaced aforementioned old el lines which is a positive - if only to compete for city fares with the two "private
owned IRT & BMT Companies" to hasten - along with the unmanageable 5-cent fare - their demise and take-over by purchase by the City. However, with the gridlocked traffic patterns of the City these present days - and the wear and tear on these
roads, highways and bridges / tunnels - some in their 50 to 100 year-old age-spans presently - not
to forget the polution afterproduct - where IS the
relevant foresight to alleviate this mass chaos
of "movement of the masses" quickly, cleanly and
safely? Rail transit, both City and Regional is
preventing utter shutdown (total gridlock) simply by its ability to move millions daily on fast,safe
rail private right of ways un-obstructed by the very
chaos that busses are subject to -road and street
congestion. You can send more volume of water thru a series of pipes quicker than carrying it piece-meal style in hundreds of buckets. I rest my case. The missing 2nd Ave. subway after 50 years (1951 to
2001) is very much like the 20 hypothetical vacant
blocks I posed earlier - A nightmare to all denied
use of the terrain. I do appreciate your and the
other two sub-talk comments on my original report.
It is refreshing to see intelligent imput from
well versed individuals in this forum !!
THANK YOU !!
>>> but the East Side of Manhattan was growing steadily before and even more so AFTER the War (WWII) - and replacing Els and streetcars with busses was not cost effective. It is well known that streetcars lasted longer than busses
...
Its is strange that New york City government saw fit to want to remove them wholesale but many other cities, big cities, Ie: Boston, Phila, San Fran and Los Angeles to name a few (Pittsburgh, Pa) resisted <<<
When you look at the post war era, you have to consider that was a time when automobiles again came on the market, and there was a lot of pressure from the driving public to get the streetcars and their tracks off the streets. Although you mention a few cities that did not get rid of streetcars (you need to substitute Cleveland for Los Angeles), many many more did.
>>> This is what happened in a similar vein when the 2nd Ave. subway was promised - the 3rd Ave El was "set up" thru low end minimal maintenance and service cuts and route branch abandonments - to become viewed unfairly as the "problem" to be eradicated - and here we are almost 50 years AFTER the 2nd Ave Subway was (plans were) drawn up - and no subway. Yet the East Side of Manhattan has expolded in growth unlike any other part of Manhattan Island <<<
Perhaps you are mixing cause and effect when you say that the 3rd Avenue El was set up through low end minimal maintenance. Although planning may be long term, budgeting the money is always a year to year thing, and there is never enough money to do everything. I suggest that the low maintenance on the 3rd Ave El was more because it was believed that the 2nd Ave subway would be replacing it soon, rather than an attempt to force its removal. The 2nd Ave subway just kept being put off when other projects (including the expressways) seemed more important.
As far as who was the prime mover in the tear down of the El without waiting until the 2nd Ave Subway was built, I suggest you follow the money. Take a look at this photo of the 3rd Ave El looking North from 34th Street, and this one looking South. I'm sure if you look at the same area today you will see many changes which came about after the El was torn down. I have not done the research, but I bet that if you looked back in the records you will find that much of the real estate along 3rd Avenue changed hands in the years before the demise of the El, and a great deal of development took place after the El was torn down with huge profits to the owners of the real estate. Perhaps the explosion of growth on the East Side is a result of the demise of the El, rather than in spite of it.
Tom
The area between Cooper Square and 14th Street was one of the last sections of Third Ave. to be "gentrified" (yuppified, whatever). Traces of the way the avenue was when the el was there lasted into the late 1980s. Now, the only sections where the el was that retain a bit of their pre-1955 look is the Bowery north of Canal and a few spots north of 96th Street.
Hi TOM ! Thanks for your imput and the color views of the El N & S from 34th Street - the station my Dad was Station Master in the 30's. An interesting point you brought up caused my memory to jog to a New York Times article in the Real Estate section of the Feb. 7, 1956 issue headlined "Thrd Avenue Blossoms as El Disappears". When the Socony-Mobil
Oil Company's new office building on the Southwest corner of 3rd & 42nd St. - being built since late 1954 - opend its doors for its new Headquarters in late 1955 (el stopped on May 12th and demolition began in mid Aug, 1955) at 150 E. 42nd St - executives stated how they demanded from the City
and NYCTA that the EL be closed along with immediate demolition BEFORE their new headquarters building was completed !! Sounds like just the point you were making - and re-enforces a point my article
posed about the GM Bus Div, Rubber tire and Oil
Cartel appearing to be anti-rail transit (unless we consider rail DIESELS which replaced steam engines for oil-fired motive power) - and yes, Real Estate boomed on 3rd Ave., but NOT anywhere near that scope on 2nd,(& lst below 23rd St)- or 9th Avenues after their els went - nor 6th Avenue except in the midtown area which had a number of huge pieces of
residential and commercial real estate happening at the close of the 6th Ave El in 1938. Fulton St. in Brooklyn didnt explode in new development after
WWII and its el removal in 1940-41. I am sure that there was a lot of lobbying by Real Estate owners, speculators and developers towards the City to remove the el for their Real-Estate related profits and ventures - quoting my article re: Laguardia and
people who.."had their own agendas...". But who was
sitting in the transt planning seats to figure out how to move the expected huge expansion of population migrating to these new corporate towers along 3rd Avenue to work within - and reside in the residential towers likewise - after the el was removed PREMATURE to its replacement 2nd ave. subway?? You stated that there was not money (in your posting) from time to time to build the subway - but by 1955 there was 500 million approx. set aside for transit and the Subway - but AFTER the el was demolished and obviously not re-storable - the money was spent on other transit venues including upgrades and signals and platform expansions on the Lex Line to "hopefully" handle the the 25 Million (TA figures from year 1954-alone AFTER its many truncations since 1950 as I noted in my posting ) DISPLACED EL riders AFTER the El closing.
Figures for 1946 for the el's annual ridership "PRE 1950 truncations" per the NYCTS (pre NYCTA) were - get this - 86 MILLION riders !! That is a 61 million drop of fares in 8 years - caused by many things - people relocating to outlying areas from Manhattan, systemwide ridership drop due to auto - taxi and
Commuter rail and bus use - migration from the city
to live and work in suburbia - and per the el, those major route and service truncations helped a lot but it is suspected that many of those lost el riders did indeed elect to take the subway routes nearby
to their points of residential egress - monies still going into another turnstile or farebox of the same NYCTS-TA system---but by design - not credited to the el turnstile coffers. The City cited as reasons to close the el - millions needed to rehab it - siginificant fare losses (WHO DONT KNOW DAT!!) and
due to fare loss to the el, revenue loss to maintain the el - ie: each route must support as much of its expense and upkeep as possible from its own-produced
revenue to be considered cost-effective to retain. It was closed based upon those "official" reasons given to the Courts handling the issue back then.
The fares the el lost to the subways for "one seat ride" convenience via branch-service and hour (nights, weekend) cutbacks caused higher earning
levels on those subway route ledgers to also help fund projects for those lines - while consquently removing those same fares from the el income-ledgers
to substantiate the planned wail to the court of "lost ridership and revenues on the el...cant pay to run and maintain it - must close it - its 80 years old!
There was significant public and TWU support which got the courts involved to stall the TA from closing the el as early as 1953 !! The whole bottom line of what my posting(s) are trying to point to - other than nostalgia -is FORGET the el. Even if it were retained - a massive overhaul would have completely
removed the quaint wood el cars, Swiss-Chalet stations and stairways - and like Phila, New York and Chicago to name a few cities - major rebuilding would have produced modern lightweight rolling stock, totally built-new stations - structural improvements - street widening & blacktop paving below and modern lighting to the street as was done AFTER the el was closed - and finally an attractive coat of paint like els were given elsewhere only a few years later. The El as we knew it - a victorian landmark and treasure - would have
been transformed into a modern pleasing and well
used facility as downtown Chicago still uses. In the
absence of all that - the Second Avenue subway should have been built and would have been running like all other city transit lines DURING the City's
fiscal crisis of 1972-3 and would not have its few small sections built, then sitting abandoned for 30 years to date. Politicians are elected and paid to represent the interests of the constituents who
provide them the job - and provide the revenues for their salaries by taxes. I guess its the big money special-interest taxpayers (ie: real estate developers and such) who in the end get what they want first. Ever try to rent a reasonably priced
apartment in or around 3rd Avenue (or Manhattan, for that matter) lately IF you can find one that is!!
It wasnt like that when I was there long ago - I lived by 3rd Ave. - $55.00 for 3 1/2 rooms off an el station in a then-quiet and clean block in 1955. You could not even rent a DESK SPACE for that today in a streetcorner cardboard box! The same apartment I used to live in 46 years ago now rents (in an 1880 era building, tho well maintained) for $1450 a month - and you WALK up 5 flights of stairs and put YOUR airco units in the windows. Figure the markup ratio from 55 to 1450 dollars over 46 years - and regarding the "people served" - whose agendas are really being promoted and by whom ??!
PS: Tom - do you hav any more color or B&W shots of the el - possibly in the Yorkville section - 76th to 89th St. areas? If so, we can work a deal out or discus it via email. THANKS FOR YOUR IMPUT POSTING!
>>> do you hav any more color or B&W shots of the el - possibly in the Yorkville section <<<
The pictures I posted were from the elevated rail section of this site.
Tom
I bet that if you looked back in the records you will find that much of the real estate along 3rd Avenue changed hands in the years before the demise of the El, and a great deal of development took place after the El was torn down with huge profits to the owners of the real estate. Perhaps the explosion of growth on the East Side is a result of the demise of the El, rather than in spite of it.
From Manhattan '45, by the British travel writer Jan Morris:
But the most interesting thing about the [Third Avenue] El was the particular sort of life that it engendered down below. Much of Third Avenue was cast in perpetual shadow by the presence of this mechanism, which kept real estate prices down but preserved for the thoroughfare the style of an earlier Manhattan ... the sidewalks were lined, even in midtown, with small, unpretentious and sometimes shady shops ... with cut-rate hairdressers and thrift shops and sellers of dog-eared girlie magazines ... It was a street that servicemen gravitated to when they wanted to get drunk without too much expense, and it smelt of malt, and cigar smoke, and the varied vapors that were trapped within its cavities.
>>> the sidewalks were lined, even in midtown, with small, unpretentious and sometimes shady shops ... with cut-rate hairdressers and thrift shops and sellers of dog-eared girlie magazines ... <<<
That is certainly the way I remembered the stretch between 34th and 42nd streets when I moved away from there in 1948. I went back to the neighborhood in the summer of 1956 to see what it looked like without the El, and I couldn't recognize it from all the changes that had already taken place.
Tom
Hi Tom - so you are also a 3rd Ave boy - we have much in common as I can relate to your rememberences of the shops and stores and everything was up the block, around the corner, and for a small tip - some stores would deliver - even up 5 flights of steps.
I had to do the errands for my mom whom I lived with and all the stores were along the el up or down from "my" station as I recall designating it - and it was like being in a small town with your own personal
transit line taking you to the far reaches of wherever.People today cant imagine riding from South Ferry or City Hall/Chatham Square as a kid or adult----to the almost end of the Bronx (via change to Wh Pls Rd El at Gun Hill to 241st st) ABOVE
ground to see 18 + miles of city go by - the sun, rain, snow - for a nickel, dime or later 15 cents
FIFTEEN CENTS !!! Any no burned out neighborhoods,
muggers and sub hamanites or molesters hiding in every nook and cranny waiting to spring on someone
for a drug fix (getting "paid" is what they call it in street lingo!) and just feeling secure and safe!
The shops and stores knew the neighbors and we knew them and we looked out for each other. Most stores had people employed who lived in the area and worked for YEARS in the same place. No pink or green hairstyles and jewelry items sticking out of their noses, tounges, eyebrows and god knows where else-
just average everyday regular down to earth people.
I have no fearful memories growing up thru the 40's and 50's - I cant even imagine what unfortunate young kids and people have to go thru in many urban
neighborhoods since the 70's ducking drug gunfire, drug dealers in and around their neighborhoods & schools, doped up cretins roaming the neighborhood to get "paid" - I cant IMAGINE what these poor kids have to circumvent daily just to get by day to day - --or their parents for that matter! And -- you
know I am not talking about the Park-Madison & Fifth
Avenue 59th to 96th Street neighborhoods!! They are still as civilized as I remember them being way back when. Yes, times have changed - and our memories are as foreign to those younger than us -as the steam engine El era was to us. You have to have BEEN there
to understand. Do you not agree?
>>> I have no fearful memories growing up thru the 40's and 50's - I cant even imagine what unfortunate young kids and people have to go thru in many urban neighborhoods since the 70's <<<
I guess you were lucky. My memories were not so rosy. I was a latch key kid for as long as I can remember, and went to P.S. 116 on 33rd Street between 2nd and 3rd Avenue. I spent my share of time in the principal's office for fighting. I joined a neighborhood gang for protection, and although I felt safe between 3rd Avenue and the East River, and 28th Street to 38th Street, I avoided going into other neighborhoods. I also felt safe on any of the big streets such as 34th Street or the avenues, but I avoided side streets where kids lived in the tenements. Walking down one of those side streets and running into a group of kids hanging around a stoop who did not know you could easily earn you a beating. I did feel safe on the El and the subways, and in Central Park up to the reservoir during the daytime. It was after I was found carrying a "shiv" in the 3rd grade for protection that my parents decided the Midwest would be a better place for me to grow up.
Tom
Third Ave. between 23rd and 33rd Streets did "gentrify" about 10- to 15-years later than the areas just to the north or south, and really didn't start changing until the late 1970s. Buildings north of 34th became more business-oriented in the late 1950s-early 1960s, while the area between 23rd down to about 16th benifitted from being close to Grammercy Park and the arrival of the new 13th Precinct and the NYC Police Academy on 20th and 21st Streets in the mid-1960s.
My uncle grew up in lower Manhatten then went to the east side and was a gang member of i think the "hudson dusters" gang,this was i think in the early 20's he had some hellish stories he told me about the gangs of those days.
The "Gas House" district, roughly between 14th and 25th streets south of Bellvue and east of Third Ave., was a pretty nasty place up through the start of World War II. That made it easy for Robert Moses to target it for the Metropolitan Life Insruance to develop most of the area into Stuyvesant Town and Peter Cooper Village. And remember, the area used to have an el running right through it, since the Second Ave. line did an `S' curve at 23rd St. and headed down to Chatham Square via First Ave. and Allen Street.
Chicago was replacing it (cable) with streetcar lines already by 1906!
Chicago refused to allow the Chicago City Railroad to replace the cable until 1906. The company petitioned the City for permission to convert as early as 1898, but was refused. In rebuttal CCR alloted only 33% of the prior maintenance amount to the cable system, by 1906 the equipment was literally falling apart.
It was partially due to the City's short-sightedness that unification, which generally happened in the late 1890's or early 1900's in most cites didn't happen in Chicago until 1914 operationaly and until the CTA era for organizational consolidation
What you say is true. It is a common oversimplification to
ascribe complex social phenomena to a fairy tale like agency
of evil conspiracy, as in "if only LaGuardia hadn't been born,
streetcars would still be running on Broadway".
It is understandable that railfans would villify anyone who
was in favor of or facilitated removal of rail services. The
only true evil is the vanity and short sightedness of mankind
in general.
While I disagree with the ethnic slur againt LaG, the posting does provide a credible chronology of the city's DELIBERATELY reducing ridership, so as to say the line's unnecssary. They still do that sort of crap- like reducing and reducing service along Centre St/Eastern Division, thta way the say we dont' need it anymore.
Certainly, with the Christie St connection pretty much dead for a few years, addtional, all-day "M" serivce would get a lot of use, I'm sure, especially out of the almost deserted Bowery Station (onceunder the old El, I belive?)
24 min headways + bus speed service, one would be hard pressed to find better alternatives.
Arti
Nice job, Joe.
Chicago still has their el's, and it defines "The Loop." No word yet on when they'll be replaced.
Sometime ago i saw the info posted on here about where to send $$ to get the large station map of the system.
Anybody have that info handy for a friend of mine?
Thanks
You might try the Transit Museum in Brooklyn 718-243-8601. They sometimes have such items for sale. If you are ordering by phone ask what they are giving away with your $30 order ... I got a subway side wall adv. on 5 years of MetroCards a few years back.
Mr t__:^)
The map costs $10.00. I don't know if the TM will mail one out (they are not really set up for mail orders). The best thing to do (if you Mike are in the NYC area is to buy it for your friend (let him send you the $$) and them mail it to him.
I suggest something flowery. Unless you like pine trees. If you like pine trees, you can odor your map like a pine tree by rubbing it with one of those pine tree air fresheners they sell at the car wash.
-Hank
I have thought of the best way to use the GE GOH R-32s. Save them for spare parts or even use them for a test train. Since they are probably in good shape except for the A/C units that were manufactured by a company that is now defunct they are probably perfectly usable. Why throw them away if use can use them for something.
BMTJeff
Scrap them? Did I miss another notice on the bulletin board?
I think that you did. In one post there is a plan to scrap the GE GOH R-32s along with the R-38s. Since the MK GOH R-32s are not expected to be scrapped anytime soon it would be a good idea to save the GE GOH R-32s as spare parts.
BMTJeff
The purchase of the R38's, which I guess one could call the "cheap clones" of the R32's, is a shame. No surprise if the older but sturdier R32's outlast them.
I have noticed of late that some of the R38's have had their (rusty) roofs painted gray. It doesn't really improve their appearance; I assume that was done to prevent or slow down further rusting.
When the R32 was built, New Yorkers had a choice of interiors for it. One was the R32 interior. The other was the R38 interior. I guess they liked the R32 interior more and that was on the R32. The alternate interior was used on the R38. I'm guessing the R32GEs were the cars with the "alternate" interior.
I've never heard that before. What I HAVE heard (and there's a paragraph and a picture on page 13 of NYC Transit's 1964-65 annual report) is that four types of subway car ventilating systems (really variations on fans) were tested on a train at the 34th Street-Sixth Avenue station. This was after the R-32s were ordered, but before all of them were in. None was a clear-cut favorite, but the one that came closest was ordered for the last 150 R-32s, and subsequently was ordered for the R-38s and R-40s (before the contracts were changed to include air conditioning on the last 10 R-38s and the last 200 R-40s [100 of which became R-40Ms]).
As to what the R-32GEs were/are, in the mid-1980s NYCT was replacing or rebuilding its entire fleet. However, the R-32 fleet had some cracking around the door sills, and there were questions as to whether the cars could be rebuilt. As a test of an engineering fix, NYC Transit designed a contract for the overhaul of 10 cars. General Electric's Buffalo Transit Services won the contract and rebuilt the cars around the time it was rebuilding the R-38s (hence the similar interior appointments). The fix worked, the rest of the cars went out for bid, and this time Morrison-Knudsen won the contract. Unfortunately, the air conditioning compressor cradles on the 10 R-32GE cars are defective, so the air conditioning is not operated (anybody out there know whether the compressors have been removed?). As "Train Dude" explained in a post several months ago, fixing the problem would involve replacing not only the cradles, but pretty much all of the equipment, something that apparently has been deemed too expensive to be worth doing.
David
David, you were absolutely correct about the R-32 fan 'vote'. I remember walking through the cars and then voting. It was a real crap-shoot with no clear-cut advantage to any one design.
As for the interiors of the R-32 and R-38, I have the "Passenger Car Data, 1947 - 1976" in front of me. The photos of the R-32A and R-38 are identical. The R-32s had seperate main light lenses while the R-32a & R-38 had main light lenses that held translucent advertising signs. That's the only cosmetic difference I see.
And the fan covers, which as it turned out cut downward air circulation and spread soot in a circular pattern all over the ceilings of the R-32a, R-38s and (especially) the non-ACed R-40s, which were the hottest things on the planet until their GOH.
I know of only one interior difference between the R-32 and the R-38 today: the handholds. (The ones on the R-38 are better for short people since they curve downward by the doors. Problems aside, that's also why I like the CI-GOH R-42.) Of course, the handholds date from GOH, not initial production.
My apologies, sir. My mistake. I thought those decisions were still made by the MTA Board and the TA and not 'fiat' from posters on subtalk.
From the description of the 2000-2004 Capital Program on the MTA Website:
"The agency will also purchase 660 B division cars ($1.277 billion). This includes 607 cars to replace cars from the R40, R42, R32GE and R38 car series, which are at the end of their useful lives. Another 53 will be purchased to expand the B division fleet to accommodate ridership growth."
The 660 cars are the R-160s.
David
"The agency will also purchase 660 B division cars ($1.277 billion). This includes 607 cars to replace cars from the R40, R42, R32GE and R38 car series, which are at the end of their useful lives. Another 53 will be purchased to expand the B division fleet to accommodate ridership growth."
There are 10 R32-GE's; 200 R38's; 300 R40's; 100 R40M's; 400 R42's for a total of 1010 cars.
There will be 212 R143's and 660 R160's for a total 872.
That's a fleet contraction of 138 cars. If the self-promotion is true and they want to raise the fleet total about 10%, then they will need an additional 240 cars.
Am I missing something?
Yes. As has been stated here many, many times, in addition to the 212 R-143 cars not replacing anything (which is why I didn't mention them at all in my previous response), the 660 R-160 cars are scheduled to replace cars in the R-32GE through R-42 car classes -- but not ALL cars in the R-32GE through R-42 car classes. That's an important distinction.
The current plan (though subject to change) features the retirement of the 10 R-32GE cars, plus all R-38s and slant R-40s, plus the 110 R-42s that were rebuilt by Coney Island Shops. The R-40M (sub)class and most of the R-42 class would continue in service, at least until the following order (which may manifest itself as an option to the R-160 order -- this remains to be seen).
David
NOOOOOOO! Not the SLANTS! ANYTHING BUT THE SLANTS!
So, in the TA's own words, 390 cars are to be used beyond "the end of their useful lives".
Welcome to the Department of Combined English and Mathematics at Bauman University...
Somehow I knew this was coming.
"Train Dude" reported a while back that a consultant studied various car classes to determine their remaining service lives. I don't have a copy of the study, nor have I seen it. However, I know from reading "Train Dude"'s postings that the consultant determined that only some car classes, and only some cars within those classes, were (then) approaching the end of their service lives.
Most of the cars in question by Mr. Bauman are R-42s. The R-42 class was overhauled by two separate entities in the late 1980s: Morrison-Knudsen overhauled 286 cars (of which I believe two were subsequently wrecked in the Williamsburgh Bridge accident and two were wrecked somewhere else) and NYCT Coney Island Shops overhauled 110. There are some differences in the equipment installed in each overhaul job. Perhaps more important, however, is the fact that the cars overhauled in Coney Island were done at a time when the shops were being rehabilitated. Fit and finish were not what they should have been, and the cost per car was much higher than what M-K charged. This was documented in the media at the time, so a further diatribe is not necessary. However, it would lead one (who does not have the consultant's report in hand) to believe that these cars were targeted by the consultant for retirement before the remainder of the R-42 fleet. Perhaps "Train Dude" or someone else familiar with the report will confirm this for us.
As for the other 100 (or so) cars (R-40M), I can only speculate that the rounded #1 end has held tighter than the slanted #1 end on the R-40s, causing less water infiltration.
Any further questions/comments/arguments should be directed at MTA's writers and/or NYCT's Car Equipment personnel.
David
I think you did a very credible job in defending your previous post. I don't have that report in hand and can't quote any specific numbers. However, the report also indicated that some R-46s should go. Now, how valid was the report? For the time, I suppose that it had some validity. BUT it pre-dated the metro-card. No one could have predicted the extraordinary success of that innovation nor was the magnitude in the jump in ridership predictable. The consultant report was based on engineering and need 10 - 15 years out. Clearly fleet needs must now be re-calculated and new ridership growth projections, made. I personally find number crunching boring & I'll leave that to the Stephen Bauman's of the world. In my world, I'd scrap the (196) R-38s (for the roof problems), the (278) R-44s (for the corrosion and frame problems) and the (126) most problematic cars of the other fleets. Get rid of 600 trouble-plagued cars and replace them with 660 R-160s.
Makes sense. Reriring cars based on individual condition is better than retiring entire car classes, the good with the bad.
Makes sense. Retiring cars based on individual condition is better than retiring entire car classes, the good with the bad.
The R38 and the R44 cars should be replaced. The 38's were never great cars to begin with and the same should be said of the R44's. Why did they wind up on the A/C anyway? I heard a rumor that the R68A's were suppose to go to the A,but were sent to the B insted. Is there any truth to that at all?
I'd scrap the (196) R-38s (for the roof problems), the (278) R-44s (for the corrosion and frame problems) and the (126) most problematic cars of the other fleets. Get rid of 600 trouble-plagued cars and replace them with 660 R-160s.
You did not account for the fact that 278 R-44's are equivalent to 348 60-foot cars. The total number of cars that you will be scrapping will be quivalent to 670 60-foot cars. You will be reducing the fleet by one trainset.
I personally find number crunching boring...
Thank you very much for that clarification. I did not realize that not all equipment had been treated or mistreated alike.
On the TA website, they say that they will replace 607 cars from the R-32GE/R-38/R-40/R-40M/R-42 series cars.
Here's the funny part about that:
How can you replace 607 cars in a fleet of ALL mated cars?
Will some car become a single?
Will some car become mated to an R-160?
It's possible that because the R-160 order is designed for use on the entire system, some cars will come in five-car units for use on the IND and BMT Southern Division, while others will come in four car pairs for the BMT Eastern Division lines. Pair the two different ones together and you get a nine-car train, which would give you an odd number here and there (though only if the MTA is planning a few nine car trains for lines other than the J/L/M/Z).
Car #3620 is out of service for frame problems. It also has no mate. Hence, it is possible to replace an odd number of cars.
They should also save R-32 Car #3620 for spare parts just in case.
BMTJeff
Yes, that the MTA is not retiring all those cars at once.
But you knew that, of course.
You should suggest to the T/A to save the GE GOH R-32s for spare parts provided that they aren't planning to scrap the MK GOH R-32s anytime soon. I have noticed that the R-32s appear to be in decent enough shape. In one other post someone apparently saw an R-38 with a rusty roof and mentioned that the R-32s were generally rather sturdy cars. I've also heard that the R-40s and R-42s aren't in the best of condition anymore either and the T/A is planning to scrap these cars along with the R-38s.
BMTJeff
The TA is putting new floors into the R-32s. Now, do you suppose that they plan to scrap them? Anyway, if I do buy into your idea about saving the GE R-32s for parts, just what parts would you suggest that the TA save them for?
If an end of an MK GOH R-32 should be damaged in an accident one can take the end of a GE GOH R-32 for replacement provided that the car is repairable so I suggest saving the complete set of the 10 GE GOH R-32s for such purposes. Also the GE GOH R-32s can also be used to test new technology such as a new design of traction motor without having to build an entire new trainset since you already have one that you can use for tests. They can also use the GE GOH R-32s to test different types of A/C units. Why throw the cars away if they can still be used for testing new technologies without having to build a brand new trainset. Use what you already have.
BMTJeff
What's the problem with the GE R'32s. I had a train of them this AM on the A and they seen no different than the others?
IIRC the GE R-32s are usually found intermixed with R-38s in a given consist.
I was in the first car, and noticed the builder plate said "Rebuilt by Buffalo Transit Services" and there was a GE symbol next to the writing. I think it did look more like an R-38. Are these GE's used as lead cars?????
Sometimes GE-rebuilt R-32’s are lead cars, sometimes they’re in back of R-38 G.O.H.’s which lead.
"I was in the first car, and noticed the builder plate said "Rebuilt by Buffalo Transit Services" and there was a GE symbol next to the writing. I think it did look more like an R-38."
Was the A/C functioning in these cars ?
Bill "Newkirk"
They are used as horses during the summer at 207 main shop.
Moreover, the fronts of the GE R-32 G.O.H.’s have retained at least some of the appearance of the original fronts – as opposed to the MK R-32 G.O.H.’s which is something else again. Maybe keep at least GE R-32 G.O.H. as a Museum piece or something.
They should just gut out the GE electrical components, or whattever else separates them from the other 32's, so they could be apart of the 32 fleet again. (And the AC's would be replaced, of course). When the 32's have their 2nd GOH, then just rebuild all of them the same (the GE 32's don't have the body problems that make the 38's less durable, so why treat them like those cars?)
"When the 32's have their 2nd GOH..."
As has been said here, oh, dozens of times, NYCT doesn't do GOHs anymore. The R-32 fleet still undergoes SMS (Scheduled Maintenance System). The new floors, for example, are being installed under SMS. With SMS, components are replaced before their life cycle has been reached.
David
"I have thought of the best way to use the GE GOH R-32s. Save them for spare parts or even use them for a test train"
I heard this from a couple of TA employess, one an engineer and not a motorman type of engineer either !
"Why spend operating budget money to repair or overhaul a particular fleet when money is coming from Albany to replace them ?"
Don't argue this twisted philosophy, Jeff. We have no power to prevent this so why bother.
Bill "Newkirk"
Hot off my e-mail and right to you. Another exciting Hot Times.
***********
Today, It's another exciting adventure of 2001: A Train Odyssey.
The phone rang far too early this day, July 4th, at about 0220. Pat, the
overnight caller (who I tell is my favorite "call girl") gives me the
exciting news that I will go on duty at Markham at 0420. I, along with an
extra board Conductor will deadhead to Clinton to get a 705 coal train and
take it to the NS at Kankakee and then van back home to Markham and tie up.
Hmm, I will work but will still be back home for the holiday. I inquire
about my Conductor and she tells me it will be Kevin O'Conner. Cool!
Although relatively new at railroading, Kevin is pretty sharp and fun to
work with. Like me, he has a warped and demented sense of humor. "I shall be
there at 420" is my response.
705, whose full name is C70561-03 is a coal train loaded at Crown #3 Mine in
Farmersville, IL. Farmersville is located at the very southern end of the
Gilman District. At one time, the track advanced well beyond Farmersville to
St Louis, but was eliminated beyond here after the 1972 merger with the
GM&O. The ICG opted for the "Alton Route" line to reach the Gateway City.
To explain the symbol of the train; the letter C designates it as a unit
coal train. 700 series numbers are used for coal trains on the CN System.
The digit 6 indicates this train has originated on the Midwest Division. The
digit 1 indicates that this is the regular scheduled train of this date. 03
is the date the train originated, that being July 3rd when the train was
loaded at the mine. If this were an empty going back to the mine for loading
it would be the C70461-xx.
CN symbols their trains backward from the way that US railroads using
numeric symbols number their trains. In the US, most railroads designate
northward and eastward trains with even numbers and westward and southward
trains with odd numbers. This system would have us symbolled as 704 north
and 705 south. However, Canada does eastward and southward as evens and
northward and westward as odds. Hence, the even numbers going south and the
odd number going north.
This train is destined for Northern Indiana Public Service Company's
(NIPSCO) Wheatfield, IN generating station. It is referred to most often as
the "Wheatfield NIPS." When we deliver this train to Norfolk Southern at
Kankakee, they handle it via the former Conrail Kankakee and Nipsco
Secondary Tracks to the power plant. Being that NIPSCO is our power and gas
utility here in Northwest Indiana, I am actually getting back some of the
money I pay them every month in the manner that I get paid to haul their
coal.
So here we go.
I had talked to the afternoon caller about 2100 hours last evening and was
told "There is nothing on the line-up extra to run." This would mean that
nothing outside of the regular scheduled trains would operate. Like an idiot
I believed this news and figured I would work train 338 around 1700 hours or
so on the 4th. So I stayed up kind of late, near midnight before heading to
bed. I find it amazing that the railroad that brags and boasts of running
everything on a schedule cannot seem to get the proper information in a
timely manner to the call board so as to give us crews reliable information
as to when we might go to work. While all the regular trains usually operate
about the same time daily, all of the grain, coal, potash and extra manifest
trains are almost never on the line-up. These trains have this way of just
showing up; sort of like when Captain Kirk, Bones McCoy and Mr Spock just
appear after being sent from the transporter room of the Starship
Enterprise. They just "materialize."
So now having had very little sleep, about two and half-hours or so, I have
to go to work. But this is not uncommon or unusual. I've been doing this for
years. I guess this makes me a lack of sleep expert or maybe even a
specialist.
At about 0330, I head out the door of my residence here in beautiful
Schererville, IN (the Crossroads of the Nation) and head to the Homewood
office at the south end of Markham Yard. Here I will meet up with Kevin, my
Conductor du jur and we will load up into a van from Midwest Railroad
Transportation and be carted off to Clinton, IL to get our train.
I should mention that just because they have told me that we will cab back
to Markham when we deliver the train to the NS, it does not mean this will
actually occur. They are known for changing their minds. Why? Because they
can. Having been doing this railroad thing for over twenty-two and a half
years, I know that a change in plan is always likely and I pack for the
situation. As it has been said so many times, "Plan A never had a chance
anyway." Instead of just bringing my grip that has the requirements of the
job including operating manuals, keys, camera, tools and other hardware that
years of experience have taught me to carry along, I also bring my "going to
Champaign" grip. This bag includes several day's worth of clothes, my
shaving kit and its necessities, workout clothes for the health club, gym
shoes and again, the other necessities required for a stay away from home
for several days.
Before we departed Markham, I called the NS Kankakee Dispatcher on the
telephone to advise him of our coming. He is shocked and knows nothing of
us. I'm not surprised. He tells of no clear tracks at Kankakee for us to
deliver the train. I inform him that we are likely six to eight hours away
from being at his door. He figures that just maybe by that point in time,
one of the three running tracks on the north side of the West Yard will be
clear for us. I give him the number of the fax machine at Clinton so he can
fax the required Train Dispatcher Bulletins to us there. I figure by calling
now, he will have plenty of time to send them and that they will be waiting
for us on the fax machine upon our arrival at Clinton.
So off we go, departing Markham about 0440. I use this opportunity to rest
my eyes and prepare for the coming trip. We arrived at Clinton some three
hours later. I was dropped off at the power and Kevin went to the trailer
that serves as the office. The inbound crew had pulled the train up to the
north end of the yard so as to clear all the road crossings in town. The
trailer is located at the south end of the yard. While Kevin marked up with
the CNIC Desk 2 Dispatcher, obtained the okay on our general orders for the
Gilman and Chicago South Subdivisions, and then the NS Kankakee Dispatcher
I inspected my power for today's train. We had the IC 6251 and 6261, a pair
of SD40-3's. They were coupled back to back meaning one unit was facing
north and the other facing south. The 6261 wears CN colors and has a little
"IC" stenciled below the road number on the side of the cab. While it
portrays a CN unit at work, in real life it is another run of the mill IC
engine. And because it has that little "IC" on the cab side, it is
designated as an IC engine for identification purposes on the radio and for
all paperwork. This can and does get confusing.
Upon inspecting the power, I discover there is no ice in the cooler and
notify Kevin to bring some up when he comes back to the engines. While
awaiting his return, I wash the windows, the control stand and all the
handles. I also pick up all the garbage that managed not make it into the
garbage bags placed in the cab for this very purpose. Some folks are just
slobs. Being that summer has arrived in full swing, the bugs have also
returned. They have this way of becoming permanently attached to the windows
and need to be cleaned away. I have a pet peeve about dirty windows.
With all of this taken care of and no exceptions taken to the power, I am
ready to roll. All I need now is Kevin to return with ice, track warrants,
general orders and NS bulletins. When he arrives with the said supplies, we
do a quick briefing of what restrictions and the like we face, go over the
track warrant and we finally depart at 0805. Our track warrant gives us the
entire railroad today as it reads "Proceed from Milepost (MP) 146.5 to
Gilman on the main track." MP 146.5 is where the Clinton Yard Limits end and
track warrant control begins. Kevin also informs me that we have been
instructed to stop at Gilman and swap out the 6251 for the 6203 which is
sitting on the West Pass there. Always gotta be something.
I begin the assault on the grade that leads us out of Clinton starting the
12,000 net tons of Illinois coal loaded into 110 aluminum coal hoppers. The
train of over 14,000 gross tons starts as slowly expected, but with no
trouble.
Let the journey begin.
We climb slowly out of Clinton to Birkbeck, around a curve and drop down
into a sag along side the Illinois Power Clinton nuclear powered generating
station and pick up speed nicely, reaching about 45 mph. As we climb up and
out the other side of the sag, alarm bells begin to ring. This is never
good. A quick look behind me to the computer screen shows the alarm is
coming from the second unit, the 6261. Kevin walks back there to see what is
going on, or not going on as the case may be. He informs me that the second
unit is dead. He also turns to isolation switch to the "Start/Isolate"
position to silence the bells. I pull the train to a stop on fairly level
track at a wide spot in the road called Dewitt, IL to go back and determine
the cause of the failure. Not even ten miles run and we are in trouble.
I observe cooling water all over the place when I open the engine room doors
by the start station where the fuel prime/starter switch and various
protective devices are located. I look to the expansion tank where the
cooling water is stored and discover the cap for it has blown off and is
hanging. Being that locomotives are like cars and trucks having pressurized
cooling systems, apparently the pressure blew the cap off. The likely reason
is that whoever added cooling water to the system failed to properly tighten
the cap. Inspection of the cap and the rim on which it fits showed no damage
leading to my presumption. I carefully fit it back on and tighten it firmly.
I restarted the engine and observed the water level in the sight glass. It
began to slowly drop. When I revved the engine up, it dropped quickly to
less than required levels when running and the unit attempted to shut down
again. I quickly reset the low water button and kept it from dying.
"Uh, Houston, we have a problem."
It never seems to fail; I get to work the holiday again and it just cannot
be uneventful. I returned to the lead unit and called the Gilman Dispatcher.
Frankie Morrical cheerfully answered when he had a free moment. From the
sounds of his conversations I was listening to, he too was not having an
uneventful day either. Things sounded a bit hectic for him. And now this. I
explained our dilemma and went on to mention that maybe the powers that be
(you know, that "They" fellow) could contact the Farmer City Fire Department
and have them meet us upon our arrival there to provide us with a big drink
of water for our thirsty girl. Being that we really have no place to get
water between Dewitt and Gilman and the fact that we would not make the hill
at Bellflower nor the even steeper grade east of Gibson City without that
second unit, our choices were pretty much limited. The call is made and we
are told that the cavalry has been summoned and will indeed meet us at
Farmer City.
So off to Farmer City we go. Being that the ascending grades between here
and there were gentle, I would have no problem pulling the train with only
one working unit. It would not be fast, but it would get us there without
tearing anything up.
We arrived at Farmer City about 0910, but the Fire Department has not yet
appeared. I pulled the train past the automatic interlocking signal here
before stopping to "hold the plant." This means I would hold the crossing at
grade so as not to have the signal time out and drop back to a stop signal.
If this were to happen, the Conductor would have to go and operate the
emergency time release to get a proceed signal again and this could take
upwards of six minutes. There is no longer an actual rail crossing here
anymore. Conrail's former Peoria & Eastern line used to cross here until it
was sold to NS in the mid 90's. NS removed this portion from service and the
diamonds were pulled out and the IC track straight railed in 1998. So there
is no crossing here anymore, but an automatic interlocking still protects
this non-existent crossing. I'm sure there is a reason for this, but I guess
I don't see this big picture.
An automatic interlocking is one that is approach activated. Very simply
put, the first approaching train to hit the approach circuit gets the signal
to proceed first. This would be first come, first served.
The fire department shows up about five minutes after we do. After
discussing the situation with them, they pull out the inch and half hose and
I water the unit. With this kind of volume of water, it takes just a couple
of minutes to refill the nearly empty expansion tank. I revved the engine a
few times to observe the water levels, deem it road worthy again, put the
isolation switch back to the "run" position, thank the two Firemen who came
out on this holiday for this non-emergency call, tell them to send the CNIC
the bill and depart. This all took fifteen minutes.
We are back on track in a manner of speaking. We roll along passing through
the likes of Bellflower where the folks were gathering for an Independence
Day celebration and obliged several requests to sound the whistle. This is
small town USA at its finest. The remaining portion of the trip to Gilman
was uneventful.
Upon our arrival at Gilman, I called Frankie and asked if there would be any
problem bringing the entire train into town to make the swap. He agreed and
into town we came. Of course, we would live to regret this decision. The
Gilman line ends at about MP82.3 with the line splitting into two wyes. The
south wye connects to the Chicago Sub to allow for southward movements from
the Gilman Sub to the Chicago Sub. The north wye connects to allow for
northward movements to the Chicago Sub from the Gilman Sub. We pulled up
onto the north leg of the wye and cut away from the train and headed towards
the West Pass. It was here we discovered the 6203 was facing south instead
of north. Had we cut the train off outside of town, we could have turned
this engine on the wyes here to have it facing the right direction. Did not
have that option available to us now though as we had pulled the train onto
the north leg of the wye. Oh well. So now we get to run backwards as it
were.
The 6203 did have ditch lights on rear, so we could operate at normal speed.
Had it not had them, we would have had to reduce our speed to 20 mph when
approaching and while crossing every road crossing as required by Federal
law. While operating backwards can be a pain in the ass, there is nothing to
prohibit such a move. What I lose here is some visibility and comfort. The
speedometer is now behind me and most of the controls are at an odd angle
towards the front of the unit. Southern and later many Norfolk Southern
units came equipped with bi-directional control stands. This has them placed
parallel to the sidewall of the cab instead of at an angle. This has the
controls along side of you for more comfort. They also have speedometers on
either the rear cab wall or mounted on the control stand towards the rear
portion of it for easier viewing. This way, you do not have keep turning
around to look behind you to see how fast you are going.
We went about the business of setting out the 6251 and picking up the 6203,
another SD40-3, performing a daily inspection on it, the required brake test
and then back to the train. When we transferred all of our goodies from the
one unit to the other, I also brought the head of train device (HOT) with
me. I installed that one on the 6203 and Kevin ran the other one over to the
6251. By performing this little maneuver, we would not have to "rearm" the
light and perform another emergency brake dump test. This would save Kevin
from having to position himself at the tail end of the train to push the
button on FRED to send the arm signal to the HOT, have me hit the
communication test button to engage the arming feature and then perform the
emergency dump test. A HOT will remain armed with FRED until disarmed
manually, the battery in FRED dies and we lose the link or I dial out of
this working code into another from another FRED and rearm with that device.
It also saves Kevin from having to then walk back up the 110 cars to the
engines.
With all the required air tests performed on engines and train, we depart
Gilman and enter the Chicago Sub for the trip north to Kankakee. As we are
leaving, Frankie calls and informs us that the instead of going back home
after we hand the train over to the NS, we will now cab to Champaign and tie
up there instead of going to Markham. Kevin learned a very valuable lesson
here, never believe what the caller tells you when they call you to work. He
had not brought along the necessary overnight supplies.
Frankie also tells us that the NS will have a crew on duty to meet us upon
our arrival at Kankakee. This is huge. It means that we will not have to
yard the train in their West Yard. This is a cumbersome task as the
connection to the NS here is backwards. We do not pull around the wye, onto
their railroad and head east. If the wye was in the southeast quadrant we
could do this. Instead, the wye is in the northwest quadrant. This means we
have two choices; pull the train by, cut off and run around it, tie onto the
south end and pull it around and head west to the yard, or pull by, and
shove the train around the wye and then the mile plus to the yard. Some
Conductors prefer to shove it over, others prefer the runaround move. In
order for us to even reach the wye, we have to pass through a small yard on
the west side of our main track, traversing about 2200 feet or so. To ride
the shove, a Conductor has to wind up hanging onto the side of an NORX coal
hopper over two miles at rather slow speeds at times. Makes for very tired
and stretched out arms.
As we closed in on Kankakee, I contacted the NS crew that would take this
train east to coordinate the move. The NS crew acquired the movement permit
form D required under NORAC rules to allow us to enter and occupy their main
track. NS still uses NORAC; Northeast Operating Rules Advisory Committee
rules on their former Conrail lines. They handled the switches on their end
of the wye and protected the two road crossings there for us.
When I shoved the train onto their main track and cleared the two road
crossings, the NS crew boarded and took over. We exchanged pleasantries,
discussed having to work yet another holiday and the fact that the lead unit
was facing backwards. The Engineer laughed about the fact that maybe the
CNIC was adopting the NS policy of running them whichever direction they are
facing. At least when the train comes back, both units will be facing the
right way.
We boarded our cab, went to line back all the switches and headed for
Champaign. We stopped at Meijer in Champaign so Kevin could obtain the
necessary overnight supplies. We then proceeded to the yard office to do our
tie up in the computer. We put off duty at 1630; some twelve hours and ten
minutes after this saga began and headed over to the hotel to spend the
night.
It was not a total loss though. My buddy Jon Roma came by and we all went
out and celebrated a toast to our freedom and our country and then had
dinner. We later watched Champaign-Urbana's outstanding fireworks display.
And so it goes.
Tuch
Hot Times on the High Iron, c 2001
A few months ago, we all agreed that there were no wooden escalators left on the London Underground due to new safety regulations. Much to my amazement, the latest issue of "Underground News" magazine claims not: Wooden treads are still to be found on certain escalators at:
Marylebone
Wanstead
Notting Hill Gate (very busy station, not sure I believe this)
Bethnal Green
Gants Hill
Greenford
Will investigate this weekend and report back
>>>>Notting Hill Gate (very busy station, not sure I believe this)
Believe it. It's goes from the Eastbound Central Line platform (towards Epping/Hainault) to the mezzanine. It's a very short escalator though.
Wait a minute. The wooden escalators are an endangered species? Get pictures before it's too late. Better yet, take a step!
They must be. The only place that I know of in NYC where you will still find wooden escalator steps is Macy's 34th St.
in his sleep early July 4. First July 4th in over 60 years the carousel didn't operate.
Daily News story
That guy was an institution. His memory deserves a placque or something similar at the rides, or perhaps affixed to the new subway terminal.
That's really sad. A real piece of Coney Island died. And a piece of my childhood. I rode that carousel as a little boy, stood listening to it as a grown-up and put my kids on it within the last few years. I thought the old guy charged too much near the end--a few rides for two kids plus me ate up a wallet pretty fast--but I didn't begrudge him.
I hope they make that carousel (and especially its real band organ) a landmark. It's more important than a cheap furniture store or even a baseball park.
IMO, of course.
it's strange... i was riding around coney island about 2 or 3 weeks ago on my bike... i like to stop by the carousel, because it has a nice old feel to it... the owner, who i've seen over the years, seemed a little whoozy, almost disoriented... he didn't look well to me... i'm sorry to hear of his passing...
I knew Mike. He was a friend of our family. My Uncle Charles was quoted in the Daily News story. He was a good man, and will be missed.
...and you wonder why it's so hard to get the Second Avenue subway built. Jeez...
Lawmaker’s Loyalty Questioned
Try not to be too harsh here. Serrano helped Puerto Rico get funding to complete a project already under construction. Puerto Rico is a territory of the US, with a lot of poverty and no votes in Congress. So literally, if "somebody else" doesn't help in Congress to appropriate money for the island, it doesn't get done. If it weren't Serrano, it would have had to be somebody else here on the mainland. Do you see anybody in New Jersey or Connecticut willing to help San Juan? So Serrano in this case took the heat for it. I respect his decision.
Want to change that situation? Make Puerto Rico a state, and put senators and congressmen in Congress to represent it.
The tax cut is responsible for the difficulty in getting funds, not light rail in Puerto Rico.
Beating up on Serrano is not only not useful, it's counter-productive.
Thing is, the majority of Puerto Ricans like the status quo. If they become a state, the residents will have to start paying federal income tax, among other things. If they become an independant country, they have to solve all their own problems.
Neither of which seems to appeal to them. What should happen is our legislators should finally throw down a put up or shut up type of deal: Either join the union with all of its advantages and disadvantages, or become their own country, and all of the advantages and disadvantages that go with that. Enough mothering.
-Hank
Yes, it's very true that Puerto Ricans can't decide, as a group, what they really want.
With regard to commonwealth status, remember that large employers tell their employees that if Puerto Rico becomes a state, trhe factory will go away and throw everyone out of work. So there's an intimidation factor...
"What should happen is our legislators should finally throw down a put up or shut up type of deal: Either join the union with all of its advantages and disadvantages, or become their own country, and all of the advantages and disadvantages that go with that. Enough mothering."
I'd tell the Governor that. It's harder to plaster that message on a working stiff in San Juan who has mouths to feed at home and can't understand why people here would begrudge him a trolley ride to work.
I don't see why it should be solely up to PR whether it becomes a state or not. Maybe we should unilaterally give it its independence -- along with Alabama and Mississippi?
It's not solely up to Puerto Rico. But if PR residents don't make up their minds, it won't happen.
Independence for Miss. and 'Bama? How about just dispersing the populations there and repopulating exclusively with New Yorkers (esp. retired train engineers...maybe we can get more mass transit down there that way).
:0)
How about just dispersing the populations there . . . .
Fine by me so long as none of them move into MY neighborhood.
Is this where I laugh out loud? :0)
Thing is, the majority of Puerto Ricans like the status quo. If they become a state, the residents will have to start paying federal income tax, among other things. If they become an independant country, they have to solve all their own problems.
If Puerto Rico became a state, most residents wouldn't pay federal income taxes at all - they'd get money back through the Earned Income Tax Credit. A state of Puerto Rico would be a big revenue drain on the country for that reason.
Plus, if PR becomes a state, DC will push harder, even though it will be a bigger drain on the Union as there's less useful stuff in DC than in PR.
Also, the Constitution prohibits creating a state out of any other state, except with the consent of the voters. (The last time a state was created out of an existing state was West Virginia. The difference was that in 1863 Virginia was not part of the United States, so the prohibition didn't hold at that time. After the end of the Civil War, Virginia didn't want to press the issue, since they were on the losing side.) It is expected that, should the DC Statehood issue arise again, that Maryland voters just might vote "NO!!!". We've got enough money sumps here without adding DC to the mix.
On the humor side, DC as a state just might kick West Virginia off the joke list.
The option of giving all but the federal area of downtown Washington back to Maryland, the same way the section of the District west of the Potomac was given back to Virginia, has been discussed over the years (obviously mostly by Republicans), but Maryland for some reason seems cool to the idea.
Realistically, with the current 50-50 split both in Congress and in most of the statehouses across the nation, there's no way a DC statehood amendment could get the required 2/3 vote from the needed legislatures to gain approval.
Maryland for some reason seems cool to the idea.
There are already too many usseless/welfare/druggies in Maryland now, adding a lot of DC just increases the problems. Prince George's and Montgomery counties are extremely cold to the idea, since they would get all the District being given back.
Maryland's General Assembly is 90% Democratic, the Maryland Republican Party is mostly disorganized. The last two Governor races were almost a laugher. In the first race, Glendening was opposed by Ellen Sauerbury, a very conservative woman, who tended to make Ronald Reagan look like a liberal. Glendenning won by 8700 votes. Sauerbury filed a protest charging voter fraud, but the numbers she claimed vanished when the case went to trial. Four years later, the same two faced off again - with the same result. This time the difference was over 10,000 votes, so not a peep from Ellen.
No statehood amendment would be necessary. States are admitted through ordinary legislation. The only prominent idea regarding DC that would require a change in the US Constitution is to give it voting representation in Congress without making it a state.
"The tax cut is responsible for the difficulty in getting funds, not light rail in Puerto Rico."
No, it's that fact that so much money is being wasted on pork. Besides why should the federal government fund the New York subway? Where in the constitution does it have the right or responsibly to do so? The New York subway is not used for any military or postal reason it should be all locally funded.
"No, it's that fact that so much money is being wasted on pork. Besides why should the federal government fund the New York subway? Where in the constitution does it have the right or responsibly to do so? The New York subway is not used for any military or postal reason it should be all locally funded."
Spoken like a proud, card-carrying member of the Libertarian Party. I won't bother to reply to that nonsense; the Supreme Court and Congress have handled that very well over the years and I refer you to your public library for that.
Stick too many cars on the highway because there is no New Yok City subway or other area mass transit systems and see how fast the military and Posal Service vehicles traveling through the metropolitan area are able to move. Funding those systems has the ancillary effect of removing passenger cars from the road and making it more accessabile for both those vehicles you mentioned and for commercial truck haulers bringing goods both to the NYC market and those who have to travel through it to and from Upstate New York and New England who would be stuck in traffic conditions far worse than they are now otherwise.
And where does it say we should be having anything other than diplomatic contact with non-states?
-Hank
I don't see the problem. Allocating $40 million for completion of the Tren Urbano makes sense as it's already well into the construction phase. A similar allocation - or even one ten times as large - for the Second Avenue subway probably would disappear into yet another "study" and not a shovelful of dirt would be turned.
As far as I'm concerned, New York no longer deserves priority over everywhere else when it comes to transit funding. Other cities can get things built. New York cannot.
Yes. Let's disband New York and start all over.
Well, at least someone in New York State understands the importance and utility of light rail.
His focus is just off by a few thousand miles.
And judging by the story, the rest of the NYC congressional delegation sound like it has all the unity of purpose as the 2001 New York Mets -- another problem with trying to get any meaningful funding for NYC.
At least Serrano actually followed through on a promise for a transit project that has been sitting in the cellar for years. That's more than the disrespect Albany has been giving us for nearly a century, and what Washington has given us for much longer. I mean look: When TEA - 21 was enacted, most of that money went towards building an interstate highway in the backwoods of upstate NY, rather than on the Upper East Side of Manhattan. And just recently, we got the snub with the House Appropriations Cmtee when they gave more money towards ESA (which benefits a more politically affluent consituency out on LI) rather than the 2nd Av, which has been delayed for over 30 years (I'm going by the MTA's Program for Action, not the IND 2nd System plan, which would make the situation more embarrassing).
These Dems need to shut up and start figuring out ways of tricking the GOP into shelling out the dough, both upstate and down 95. In - fighting ain't going to do it.
When TEA - 21 was enacted, most of that money went towards building an interstate highway in the backwoods of upstate NY, rather than on the Upper East Side of Manhattan.
That Interstate highway (I-86) was seen as a way of bringing economic development to chronically depressed Upstate regions. It's not at all uncommon for highway projects to be used for development purposes. While the Second Avenue line obviously has its merits, it's not likely to do much economically for the Upper East Side, mainly because that area's already affluent.
Actually, I-86 construction was mostly done by the State of New York (with a little help at the far western end by Pennsylvania) as State Highway 17, some of which was completed about the same time the R-36 Redbirds were arriving on the scene. The bulk of the road from the NYS Thruway to I-90 north of Erie was already Interstate standard before the latest funding ever came through. The main upgrades will be to the few areas that still have highway level crossings, like just west of Liberty (nuke that damn traffic light at Exit 98!) and around the Elimra area.
The Upper East Side is an area that is affluent, no doubt. It is also an area in which a lot of its residents are key to the economic turns in the Midtown and Lower Manhattan business districts, both of which are key to the western world's survival. The thing is that for the last 50 years, these affluent people have been delayed in getting to their important jobs on a trunk line designed to carry only 60% of its current capacity. And in the process, little old people like me are delayed with them in our journeys to school or other activities.
The State of NY should have had a contingency plan for its upstate residents when the free trade market dictated that their industries flee for cheaper pastures outside the country or fold altogether, which begun about thirty years ago. Obviously it didn't. So now its compensating at our expense. But anyway, I understand that this Upstate/Downstate rivalry has been going on for the past two centuries.
And Dems don't know how to shut up. They keeping throwing out the bull and fooling the people into believing they are for them while they become the new Senate's millionaire club-----Kerry, Edwards, Kohl, Cantwell, Corzine, Rockkefeller. They live in gated communities, send their kids to provate schools and proclaim they are for the little guy. And the people believe it. What a crock. A bigger crock is that the Republicans are stupid and too tongtied to point out to the people that the Dems are phonies and just talking them for a ride. Neither party is all that interested in helping public transit in the cities. The Republicans are just more honest about it, even ifthey are wrong.
Sounds like he's doing the right thing, members of Congress are elected to do what is best for the nation not what is best for their own districts. If more people had his attitude there would be far less pork.
Does anybody out there remember.................
If there were this many diversions in service prior to the first realignment of the Manhattan Bridge in 1966-7 due to Grand St opening?
1. Were the former Bankers Specials caused to terminate at Chambers because the tracks from Nassau to the South Bridge were going to be severed?
2. Were N, T, QT, Q, QB trains forced thru the Tunnel (MAJOR CONGESTION??) while the Broadway Express tracks had a new tunnel built from the Bway Express Canal Sta to the South, not North Bridge side?
3. Were "D" and "F" trains rerouted orhad their lines shortened for a day or 2 or 5 while the tunnel from Bway Lafayette was finished via. the ramp leading to Grand Street??
4. Or was it normal service one day, and then changed to the new patterns the next?
This was all before I was born, but I am curious. My family REMEMBERS the "D" via Culver (full of r1-9's "the cars with the straw seats), but they know nothing of the CONSTRUCTION related to the Chrystie St connection!!
Tony
In partial response (I remember the D on the Culver -- some trains terminated at Kings Highway):
The QT always ran by the Montague Street Tunnel ("QB" = bridge; "QT" = tunnel.)
I believe the D was not affected. It originally ran via the route used by the F today; the work was done on tracks not used for service. So, it would have been an easy transition.
I think there was a service disruption over a weekend on the former BMT lines.
I was 16 at the time, living on the Culver line. We had D trains, and suddenly, just like that, we had F trains. There was very little impact there.
On the other hand, I knew a lot of Brighton riders, and they didn't know what hit them. But it was fast, it was done, and people adjusted. The point is that there were no multi-year "temporary" diversions.
I was 15 at the time (I gotta stop doing that - it makes me feel so old - for those who are trying to do the math - I will be 50 in November).
I was just "starting" out on my transit trails so I can't really comment on the construction.
As memory recalls, the F train terminated at 34th Street/6th Avenue so it wasn't affected during the construction. The D train ran down the Culver line (which was it's normal route) so it wasn't affected either. There had not been 6th Avenue express service between 34th & W4th prior to the opening of the Chrystie St connection. There was no service on the express track at Broadway-Lafayette at the time so nothing was affected. The Express service, the switching of the F to the Culver line and the assignment of the D to the Brighton line all happened at the same time in 1967.
I do have the article (somewhere) from the Daily News describing the aftermath of first day of the new routes. It was a mess.
"I do have the article (somewhere) from the Daily News describing the aftermath of first day of the new routes. It was a mess."
Let's see it.
N Bwy Line (LOCAL)
I remember a television broadcast from that time where a reporter interviewed a man about the change in service, and he loudly blasted the TA and lamented the loss of the Q train. I wonder where he is now?
That man is still waiting at Times Square for Brighton Express service to get home!! He get home on July 22!!
Actually, he would have made it home in 1986 during the first closure of the north side tracks, no?
Not if he was waiting for a pure Brighton express. Concurrent with the 4/86 bridge flip, the express tracks on the Brighton line were closed and the M was permamently removed. D/Q "skip stop" service ran all during the 86-88 service diversions. The express tracks were re-opened to full usage at the same time the D and Q were put on 6th Ave in 12/88. There hasn't been a regularly scheduled Brighton/Broadway express in almost 34 years.
Did that article mention anything about a motorman punching for an incorrect lineup at Pacific St.? One train wound up on the bridge instead of the Montague St. tunnel.
NY Times press coverage mentioned it. It wasn't at Pacific - it was a D at DeKalb. I remember seeing all this when I documented the Chrystie St Connection in my History of the IND:
First scheduled for March 1967, then May, the Chrystie Street connection opened on November 26th, 1967, affecting nearly every BMT and IND line in the city. But it was almost delayed at the last minute yet again. Mayor John Lindsay wanted the route changes through Chrystie Street delayed because he received complaints about them and wanted to discuss them with TA officials first. The number of trains that were proposed to run through DeKalb Avenue was questioned. He also inquired as to why these changes were being made by the TA, knowing that the TA was to become part of the larger Metropolitan Transportation Authority in March 1968. By this point, the plans were too far advanced to delay them any further; the TA agreed to "study" the service changes and make adjustments as needed.
The first train affected by the vast subway service changes was a RR local leaving 95th Street at 12:08am, initiating a new weekend service. (This train used to terminate at 57th St/7th Ave on Sundays). The first train through Grand Street was a D / Brighton Express that left Coney Island at 12:10am, headed for 205th Street. (The D route used to travel the Culver Line). The NX super-express began the next day; 5 trains were scheduled in each direction during rush hours. Later increased to 7 trains in the morning rush, the NX was supposed to provide service for an influx of new residents at public housing projects in Coney Island.
The first few weekdays of the revised services caused massive confusion for both riders and train crews. Compounding these problems were two power outages on November 28th affecting the IRT Flushing Line and BMT Astoria Lines, requiring reroutes of trains that were just permanently "re-routed". The IRT outage was traced to a failure at the Queens Plaza substation. The power outages began at 6:45pm; full power was back on-line at 7:48pm.
At 6:48am on November 28th, a D / Brighton Express train was misidentified at DeKalb Avenue and sent up the south side of the Manhattan Bridge to Canal Street. 800 passengers were discharged at Canal Street. The train then ran light to Queens Plaza via the 60th Street tunnel and Broadway Express, where the motorman changed ends and took the train via the 53rd Street tunnel and 8th Avenue local to a lay-up track at 30th St. The motorman changed ends one more time, and ran light to 59th St / Columbus Circle, where he continued along the D route to 205th Street. Originally due at 7:39am, he terminated at 205th St at 8:57am. It was later found out that the motorman punched the wrong button at DeKalb Avenue, and was sent back to school for some additional training. (He was not fired).
--Mark
The D ran via Culver right up to midnight or so on Saturday, Nov. 25, 1967, the day before the switch, then started running via Christie St. and Brighton, with no interruption of service. I rode an R-1/9 D train from B'way-Lafayette to Jay St. Saturday night, then an R-32 D train from B'way-Lafayette to DeKalb the next morning. The tracks from B'way-Laf to Christie St. had obviously been completed before the switchover; the F terminated on them at B'way-Laf through Friday evening, then (as was standard practice for weekends) terminated at 34th St. all day Saturday.
Changing the routing of the Manhattan Bridge tracks was done over the three day period from Thursday, Nov. 22 (which was Thanksgiving day) through Saturday, Nov. 25. For those three days, IIRC, all trains operated through the Montague St. tunnel. The changeover was presumably scheduled for the four-day Thanksgiving "weekend" in order to inconvenience as few people as possible with this diversion.
The express tracks between 34th and West 4th, however, though constructed concurrent with the Chrystie Street extension, didn’t go into operation until July 1, 1968, which also happened to be the same day the 57th Street–6th Avenue then-terminus opened (prior thereto, non-Washington Heights, post-11/26/67 B trains terminated at West 4th).
Grand Street and 57th Street had all-concrete roadbeds (that is, no wooden half-ties), albeit in a different design than used on the Archer Avenue extension and the 63rd Street tunnel (as on a previous thread). However, the tunnels inbetween Broadway-Lafayette and Grand, and between Grand and the “Manny B.”, used the conventional full wood ties and ballast. Go figure.
The express tracks between 34th and West 4th, however, though constructed concurrent with the
Chrystie Street extension, didn’t go into operation until July 1, 1968, which also happened to be the
same day the 57th Street–6th Avenue then-terminus opened (prior thereto, non-Washington
Heights, post-11/26/67 B trains terminated at West 4th).
The express tracks didn't go into full time operation until July 1. But they were used by both B and D trains during rush hours, starting Monday, Nov. 27, 1967 (the second day of Chrystie St. operation).
It seems the practice of making routing changes on Sundays still continues, as this month's "bridge flip" will occur on Sunday the 22nd. Interesting, though, that 57 St./6 Av. opened on Monday, July 1 in '68, and not on Sunday, June 30.
IIRC, the station actually opened very late Sunday evening. I have memories of going up on the first train a B train of R-32's.
I was in the city on July 1, 1968; however, we didn't go to 57th St. I was also in the city on Nov. 24, 1967, but didn't ride on the BMT at all. The Manhattan Bridge no doubt breathed a huge sigh of relief those few days. I did, however, experience my first CPW express jaunt on a prewar D train.
I was only 12 at the time, but I remember the tracks to Grand St being ready long before the swap, with the rails coming up to the bridge portal, and just ending without blocks or bumpers.
The Brighton trains ran in the tunnel for a number of weekends before the official date, probably to allow work on the wall between the Nassau and Bway tracks, and to ready the the new connections.
On the actual weekend, I think all they had to do was severe the Bway tracks from the bridge north side and connect them to Grand St. Then sever the tracks from Canal and connect to the south side. I doubt it took all that long.
I think the Nassau st connection was severed long before any of the other work was done. Trains stopped running Bridge/Nassau years before. I never saw a train on the south side until 1967. I could be wrong on this.
I rode the Chrystie connection on the first day(Sunday) and it was chaos. I also rode the second day and it was mass chaos.
The Nassau side had service until that Wednesday. Thurs was Thanksgiving, and Friday they bagan the work of severing the loop. (By then servie was down to a few 4th Av. specials, and light Brighton specials, so that may be why you didn't see anything on that side). After rush Fri, all trains ran through the tunnel, as work began on the North side.
6th Av. service was affected, as F trains had always been extended to 2nd Av. during rush hours, by switching to the exp. tracks at W4th, which then ran through to 2nd Av. When work began on the Chrystie St. ramp where those tracks were, service was then cut back to Broadway Lafayette. Sometime in 1967, it was again extended to 2nd Av, again because of Chrystie St. work on the tracks at Bway-Lafayette, but this time they stayed on the local tracks and switched over at 2nd Av, just like the V will.
My map from 1963 shows serivce on the Nassau Loop distinctly as "rush-hours-only". So I guess it could be pretty uncommon to see a train on the south side tracks, especially if you only got to go there on days off from school or work.
It's curious that even though the south side has received less use over its lifetime than, that it developed the worse structural problems, with a 12 year closure.
I remember it well - it was the final year my family went to Brighton Beach on summer days. Before Christie we would get on the QB at Astoria and have a one seat ride to Brighton Beach or Ocean Parkway. During the week we would change at 57th for the Q (hated riding thru the tunnel on the QT). After Christie it just became too much trouble to change at 34th (with all our beach chairs and umbrellas) for the D or ride the horribly slow RR service thru the tunnel to DeKalb.
So it was goodbye to Coney Island - forever!!
The question is, why was the 6th Avenue Line given access to the Manhattan Bridge when they was the Broadway & Nassau Lines? Did they know that ridership would decrease drastically since the change took effect? It would take years to reach the level of commuters as is happening now.
N Broadway Line
Prior to Chrystie Street (and for a short while after), 6th Avenue had no express tracks between W 4th and 34 Streets and was underutilized. The 4 tracks over the Manhattan Bridge were also underutilized. Completing the 6th Avenue express tracks and linking the Manhattan Bridge north tracks to 6th Avenue solved both problems. Using the south tracks over the Manhattan Bridge to Broadway meant that Broadway (BMT) service would not be reduced. Chrystie Street resulted in more service between Brooklyn and Manhattan, including linking Williamburgh Bridge service to 6th Avenue. It was only after the south tracks of the Manhattan Bridge became unusable for so many years that Broadway service really suffered.
So what you're saying, there wasn't much service coming out of Nassau Street which is currently served by the J, M, Z Lines? I guess that makes sense, because, why come out of brooklyn just to go into brooklyn again... In other words, common sense will tell you that people will access other modes of transportation (G or BUS) to get to southern Brooklyn.
Speaking of the Nassau Street route, judging by the traveling patterns, the nassau line doesn't serve much of a purpose after Broad Street. Except to add additional service to a very popular line like the B.
If they were to tie the Second Avenue Line into Nassau (if built), it will greatly change the way those stations are maintain along Nassau Street. Other than that, I don't see much use of the Nassau Street Lines above Broad Street.
N Broadway Line
Essex Street is quite heavily used, especially by the Hassidic Community travelling between the Lower East Side and Williamsburg. But you're right in that there really is very little use (at present) of the service in between Essex and Broad. The very peculiar and ineffcient track set-up, involving a lot of switching as the norm, makes it a slow ride.
However, reverting to earlier threads, I think that full time (well, maybe not late nights) throguh service on the M would be very useful during the coming Manny B problems. The Bowery Station is pretty close to Grand Street
And the Bowery's usage is WAY WAY up over the past year, mostly by Chinese people. I was stunned to see 10 people get on not the train I was riding, but just the car I was sitting in recently.
Wel, that's great. We need as much usage as possible at the "minor" stations, so as not to give TA any excuses, ya know....
I was glad to see that the station's at leat been painted and gets cleaned now. I used it a bit in Dec 1999, and it was a disaster. That said, seeing Bowery, Canal (J/M/Z plat.), and Chambers in bad shapeat least served as a reminder of the grim 70's, and also gave the feeling of visiting ruins or something.
Where the TA made their mistake when Chrystie St. was opened, was in failing to balance out the track usage on both sides of the bridge when they had the chance.
When the Broadway line ran on what is now the Sixth Ave. tracks, the south side tracks to Chambers were underused because they really didn't go anywhere in Manhattan except back towards Brooklyn on the Nassau loop. But when Chrystie was opened, the TA put the B and D on the old Broadway tracks and stupidly stopped full-time Brighton-Broadway service, leaving only the N and the occassional rush hour QB on the old Chamber Street tracks, leaving the unblanced situation as bad as it was in the first place.
No dobut the design flaw would have forced some repairs to the Manny B eventually, but the TA's decision in 1967 to prioritize Sixth Ave. service to south Brooklyn over Broadway service probably hastened the current problems.
There's been some posts here that the whole bridge is 3 in one, wouldn't that refute your argument?
Arti
If part of the problem with the bridge was caused by twisting due to the trains passing over, causing cracks due to the rigid box-like design Moiseriff came up with, then the problem would eventually have arisen no matter how well-balanced the trains operating on either side of the bridge were.
But over the years, I'll bet the ratio of trains using the Manny B has been between 2:1 and 3:1 in favor of the H tracks on the northeast side of the bridge (and I'm not even counting the last decade, when all the trains have been using the Sixth Ave. tracks). Running a dispraportionate weight load for 70 years over a bridge that was designed wrong in the first place can't have helped the situation any, and the problem may have even been worse in the 1930s, 40s and 50s, when the BMT's much heavier rolling stock was in use on the Broadway line (the same way too many trucks in the right lane on an uphill stretch of interstate produces those annoying rutted lanes over a period of time).
The TA could have almost gotten the trains on both sides of the bridge to a 1:1 ratio after 1967 if they had opted for regular Q-Brighton service to 57-7th, Astoria or Continental Ave., instead of sending the QJ down the Brighton line via Montague, running the EE via B'way local to Coninental and having only the D offer midtown service to Brighton riders.
The Sixth Avenue tracks are the A/B tracks (north/east side of the bridge). The H tracks are on the Broadway Line side (south/west side), but Mr. Lee's got a point -- the side now used by Sixth Avenue trains has always seen heavier use than the side that's about to be used again by Broadway trains.
David
Oohps -- typing while groggy after a bad night's sleep will get you every time. I also botched Robert Mosseiff's last name, though the other correction is more important.
[If part of the problem with the bridge was caused by twisting due to the trains passing over, causing cracks due to the rigid box-like design Moiseriff came up with, then the problem would eventually have arisen no matter how well-balanced the trains operating on either side of the bridge were.... Running a dispraportionate weight load for 70 years over a bridge that was designed wrong in the first place can't have helped the situation any....]
The key words are "designed wrong"!! No service pattern will ever fully correct a poor design.
A less-bad placement would have been as follows: the south side of the bridge for the two southbound tracks (from Broadway and from 6th Avenue) and the north side of the bridge for the two northbound tracks (to Broadway and to 6th Avenue). That way, ALL loads would have to use BOTH sides (once in each direction), thus offering approximate balance under ANY service pattern. Compare PATCO on the Ben Franklin Bridge to/from Philly.
Of course, the existing tracks COULD be reconfigured that way, IF there were enough billions in the budget to do so!
That's the Williamsburg bridge that's 3 in one. (north roadway, trackway and south roadway. Each could be completely demolished and rebuilt from scratch, except on the main span where only the roadbeds were removed.) The Manhattan has those beams underneath that cross the entire width, twisting when trains go over, so it is more problematic.
I think the balancing of Bway/6th Ave service would've been obvious. As it stood, post-Chrystie service to midtown wasn't increased over pre-Chrystie service. All that was accomplished was the transferring of direct midtown service from the Brighton local (which had Broadway/tunnel service prior) to the West End (which only had Nassau St. TT service via tunnel)and vice versa (Bway QT becoming the useless QJ, and the TT becoming the B).
A much better way of doing things would've been to run the QB during the same hours as the QJ, and the retention of the Banker's specials or some sort of weekday service from Nassau to either Bay Ridge or Ditmas Ave. via the old Culver Shuttle.
Why didn't you just change to the N at 57th?
It didn't go to Brighton Beach or Ocean Parkway - so it would mean changing again a third time.
Anyway - we did discover a bus service from Astoria to Jones Beach and that's where we went after that.
And the reason I was so sad to see the "T" go is that Astoria lost its Broadway Express Service (boy did I hate making all stops when we went to lower manhattan).
As I’d noted before, had the color scheme inaugurated with Chrystie Street taken effect earlier, then the Astoria-Broadway-West End T would have been colored PMS 165 Orange. This, based on color photos of the R40 scale model with a sign “Times Square Special - T.”
Before Chrystie Street, did anyone actually call their train the "T", or "QT" or whatever,? Or did they,as my mother did right into the 1970s, just call 'em all the "BMT", while simultaneously referring to IND lines by their proper designations?
Cosniderign that BMT lines only received letter designations around 1960, and that they weren't even used on all trains on the same line (the "D-Triplexes continued to display numbers), I wonder how many folks really used them in every day speak.
That said, it would have been nice to think they did- the very notion of a "T" train is intriguing, as are other letters that we're not used to, Like V and W
My parents called the "T" the "West End", the Q, QT, or QB was simply the "Brighton". They also used "BMT" like your mother. On the other hand they referred to the IND as the "Eighth Avenue Subway", no matter where it went.
As I was growing up the R-32's were being introduced on the "T", while the "QB" and "QT" were getting R-30's so I was already getting used to the letter designations. I used (and still do use) the letters and names interchangeably. Guess I'm one of the few that calls the train that now goes to Astoria the "Sea Beach" as often as I call it the "N".
i can verify that we called them the culver, the sea beach etc. not sure we even knew that there were number designations.
I thought it was going to be black, as it was the forerunner of the B service. Since the EE was orange, I assumed the QT it replaced would have been the Broadway orange line; and the Q express, light blue, as it became the NX.
I know the model drawing for the E (inside the pre-Chrystie 1967 map) had the light blue, but when the actual cars were first displayed on the F, that sign was green, so I guess the color assignments were still formative.
Er . . . the F on that prototype sign was kind of lime/light olive green . . . sort of reminiscent of today’s G train, I guess. . . .
Thank you to all the guys that answered my post about the Pre-Chrystie Street construction. Except for a few weekend reroutes thru the Montague tunnel, there was not much diversion or inconvenience. There were a couple of interesting points brought up.
1. That was interesting to read that the Saturday after the official opening, R-32's were already being used on the "D" via. Brighton. I did not think anything but R1-9 was used on the "D" until the '70's!
2. That man on the news in 1967 that was fuming over the loss of the "Q" must still be waiting at Times Square for a Brighton Express run to get home. He'll make it home on July 22, 2001!!
3. I am assuming that because so much of the work force in the early part of the century was concentrated in the Financial District, it seemed to be an advantage to have loop service from Brooklyn via Bridge, then Nassau, then tunnel. I think I read that there were 2 Banker specials. The 4 Ave one ran via tunel, then Nassau, then Bridge. The Brighton Special ran via Bridge, then Nassau, then tunnel. So, Both tracks of the South Bridge were used, but probably just 5 times a day Mon-Fri!! One of you mentioned that the Bankers specials stopped using the bridge well before 1967. Another one of you mentioned that the connection was used fully until the last non-Holiday weekday before the closing.
4. You guys that were 16 at the time of the Chrystie St opening are the same age as my parents, but they could not remember anything about the construction!!
Thanks for all the responses, I really appreciate it.
Now tell me the rolling stock used on the "NX", "RJ", "JJ", "QB", and "EE" lines at the time of the Grand St opening!!
Tony
Just a little touchup for ya ... you'd said:
"1. That was interesting to read that the Saturday after the official opening, R-32's were already being used on the "D" via.
Brighton. I did not think anything but R1-9 was used on the "D" until the '70's! "
The 32's appeared first on the D (I'm looking at the equation from the Bronx side) and the B/AA lines in the mid/late 60's ... R1/9's pretty much ruled the E, KK and CC lines at the time but appeared on the D into about 1972 as "put ins" for rush hour only. Back in those days, the TA was still short of cars and wanted the newest, shiniest on display at off-peak ... you rarely saw the R1/9's on the road except during rush hour (aside from the Rockaway line where they seemingly ran forever).
Just so's ya know you aren't completely out of it. :)
The AA, B, and D lines got R-32s when the Chrystie St. connection opened. I vivdly remember seeing R-32s on all three routes by December of 1967. Once in a while, a train of R-1/9s could still be found on the D on weekends after that. If we got one at 34th St., it became the subject of a national holiday for me.
It was at that same time they began redoing the R-10s in that half-and-half teal and white paint job. That was a bummer; I really liked the racing stripe scheme.
In addition to the weekend CC conversions, there were a good number of put-ins of R1/9's for rush ONLY, "good for one round trip" ... those were the ones I got. Folks not doing split shift got the shiny Budds ... but it was my first pick in each title and well ... you know what "first picks" are when you're so low down on the board that all you get are the ones that are dog-eared or look like they got torn up by others higher on the whizzing pole. :)
I didn't mind the picks for what I got to run ... but the hours ... oy.
NX=R27-30 EE=R1-9,R16 and some R38's RJ=R16 and R27-30's JJ=R16 and R27-30's[along with some AB standards] QB=R27-30 and some R32/32A Basicaly the Eastern Division line operated the same rolling stock with the exception of the L line.During that time,E.N.Y Yard had R16,some standards[running on the L,M,and some JJ rush hour putins]R27-30[fresh from thesouthern division]and last but not least,some R1-9's from the Jamaica Yard. hope this helps.
"NX R27-30's," Not when I rode or photographed. R-32's were what I saw.
Actually, in James C. Greller’s New York City Subway Cars book, on page 84, an R27/30 is plying its trade on the NX line. R27 #8180, to be precise.
Here's another R27 set on the NX, in April 1968:
That's a simply FANTASTIC picture!! Thanks for posting it!!!
Don't thank me, thank Dave. It's from this site.
Well, thanks both of ya!! You got it from Dave, but it came to my direct attention from you.
Where was that picture taken? Also what is that overpass and electric towers for? My guess might be 8th ave, and the electric poles for the Bay Ridge LIRR.
THAT'S MY TRAIN!!!!
N Broadway Line
far be it from me to deny such evidence, But a check of my prints shows (my lapse of memory) R-38 3954 with the rollsigns reading N Broadway Special, and the NX plaque on the chains accross the storm door. So it appears several classes were used.
Cars were scattered far and wide during this period, and you could find 2 or 3 classes making up one single train. Anything and everything could've run on the NX.
Of course, though it would later be S.O.P. on the IRT (or “A”) Division, 1969 was the year you would see different IND/BMT R units on one train for sure. Like an R27/30 in the back of a train of R42’s, or the one picture of an F train which featured an R40M followed by an R38 followed by an R40 slant non-air-conditioned. Or an R42 coupled with an R10 on an A train. Such combos, I.I.N.M., didn’t work out because no two sets of “B” Division R units really looked that much alike – unlike the postwar IRT cars (though seeing R12/14 and R15’s scattered amongst R17-36ML cars in trains was kinda weird).
Ah, yes, the dreaded smorgasbord trains. Luckily, I never saw R-10s intermixed with anything else; otherwise I would have had a stroke. The only mixed consists on the B division I ever saw were R-32s and R-42s on the D. Something tells me the yard crews didn't bother to sort out the various cars after yard moves and just left them coupled together as they were.
You must’ve missed when this picture was taken.
Heh. VERY typical of what I was used to back then ... the only thing I never saw was 44's and R6's ... now THAT would have been a helluva ride, Bucky Beaver style. :)
I was stunned when I saw that photo some time ago. Had I actually seen that train, I probably would have thrown a sreaming fit, being the solid train fan I am. One thing I was curious about was the door action on the R-10s in such a lashup. Did their door locks release when the conductor turned his key? Did the air escape when the "open" button was pressed? This assumes the conductor's station was in the R-42s.
While riding the R-16's on the "J" during the '80's, and turning the roll signs while nobody was looking, I never noticed an "RJ" designaton on either the coloured or the black/white rolls. How did the TA mark the "RJ" trains during 1967-8? Come to think of it, there were never any "NX" signs on either the R-16's or R-27-30's either!!
And does anybody remember how many "RJ" and "NX" rush hour limiteds were in service during their few months of life?? Sorry for all of these questions--but I was not born until '69, and my first memories of the subway are seeing a "KK" at Bway Lafayette circa 1973!!! Tony
The post above my last one, by Chris R27-R30 has a a really great shot of an NX on the Sea Beach Express with a black and white roll sign showing "NX" and a blue metal sign on a chain showing the "NX". Greller's books also shows a pic of an R27 or 30 marked "RJ".
I guess it's hard to find pics of trains marked like this because their lives were so short. I was born in 1968, so I also have no memory of these lines. But I think it's too bad the NX didn't last, and make some use out of the Sea Beach express tracks......don't you agree?
Hi WF, Yes, I saw the pics AFTER I did my post!!! The Sea Beach tracks would be the most productive today if special express trains ran to Coney Island during the summer. Tony
It truly is a shame. At least let then run it in summer for beachgoers. If I ran it the NX would run Broadway express, bridge, express on 4th and then express to C.I. from 59th. The thing is with one track abandoned by the TA, it would have to be directional (to Coney Island from like 11-3pm and from CI 3-7pm).
The multi-colored signage that was adopted on the R16/R32 and R38's were installed in 1969, well after the RJ, NX and MJ lines were eliminated, or at least scheduled to be eliminated. These signs were removed from the newer R32 and R38 in the mid-80's, but left in the soon to be mercifully scrapped R16's. I loved playing with them. They were also intriguing to me because they retained the old colors, double letters and a few lines which I didn't understand (TT, EE, KK and MM) and I never knew the difference between the QJ and JJ until well after the R16 was scrapped.
**They (the signs of colored lines) were also intriguing to me because they retained the old colors, double letters and a few lines
which I didn't understand (TT, EE, KK and MM). . . . **
Which is all the more reason why the rollsigns with pre-1978-colored IRT lines (grey 5, for instance) should be preserved upon their removal from the IRT Redbirds that are to be scrapped. Those IRT signs apparently were modelled after the way the arrangement on R46 signs worked out – black background, and grey used for black-colored lines.
The 1969-era multi-colored signs had two variations: one with Standard Medium, which was apparently the TA’s preferred typeface for the system (look at all the signs from the ’70’s, for example), and another with a more square-ish, sans serif typeface which was unique to Transign, the company that made all the rollsigns for R32’s and R38’s, as well as some replacement rollsigns for IRT R17-36ML units. For the most part, R32’s with the multi-colored signage used Standard Medium while R38’s with such signage had the Transign-designated font. The “J“ letter, for example, there are plenty differences between the two. R16’s, of course, were the only class of cars to have such multi-colored signage on the sides as well (below the two rollsigns indicating each destination), and the typeface on those signs was Standard Medium. One example, on the R16 6387 at the Transit Museum:
A 8 Av Exp
Speaking on this subject, what was the idea behind the MM? Myrtle Ave/6th Ave? Why was it never used?
Yes, the MM was supposed to go from Metropolitan Ave. to 57th St. via the Houston-Delancey connector. As to why it wasn't implemented, I don't know.
Some 32's were first placed in D service in the weeks before the change to familiarize the crews.
>I think I read that there were 2 Banker specials. The 4 Ave one ran via tunel, then Nassau, then Bridge. The Brighton Special ran via Bridge, then Nassau, then tunnel.
This was true for the PM rush. (The Brightons had no passengers on the Bridge run, though. In the AM, it was the reverse.
Tony:
This is in response to your query. I was fairly active in railfanning at the time and did ride the first train through the Chrystie Street Subway.1. Were the former Bankers Specials caused to terminate at Chambers because the tracks from Nassau to the South Bridge were going to be severed?
The last Nassau via Bridge trains ran during the PM on Wednesday,November 22, as Thursday was Thanksgiving Day there was no service to Nassau Street from the Southern Division. On Friday, November 24 all Southern Divison services to Nassau Street ran via the tunnel; ie#1(M),#2(M/S) and #3(TT)/
2. Were N, T, QT, Q, QB trains forced thru the Tunnel (MAJOR CONGESTION??) while the Broadway Express tracks had a new tunnel built from the Bway Express Canal Sta to the South, not North Bridge side?
The last QB ran during the early morning hours of Wednesday the 22. After that only the QT ran. This was in effect throughout Thanksgiving Day. The last Broadway via Bridge train train ran at the end of the pm rush on Friday the 24. All day Saturday all Broadway service ran via the tunnel.
3. Were "D" and "F" trains rerouted orhad their lines shortened for a day or 2 or 5 while the tunnel from Bway Lafayette was finished via. the ramp leading to Grand Street??
As the Chrystie Street Subway connected to the unused 6 Avenue express tracks east of Broadway-Lafayette St this portion of the conection had minimal effect on the D and F although for a one month period prior F weekday F trains were extended to 2 Avenue via the local tracks,
4. Or was it normal service one day, and then changed to the new patterns the next?
Saturday Nov 25 service on the IND was normal. BMT service was normal
except that all trains ran via the tunnel albeit on somewhat reduced schedules. The changeover was implimented in this way. Late Saturday night the last QT left Coney Island at 1159PM, the next arriving QT was resigned as a D train and left at 1210am. This was the first train
through the Chrystie Street tunnel. At Broadway-Lafayette St it met the first southbound D via Chrystie.
Southbound arriving D Culver trains at Coney Island were converted to F trains and stated running to Jamaica. The #2(RR) were simply extended from 57/7 to Astoria.
This was all before I was born, but I am curious. My family REMEMBERS the "D" via Culver (full of r1-9's "the cars with the straw seats), but they know nothing of the CONSTRUCTION related to the Chrystie St connection!!
Tony
I hope that this answers some of your questions.If you have more please don't hesitate to ask.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Say, Larry, did the T run at all on that Saturday, Nov. 25? They normally ran until 8 PM, then the TT shuttle took over between 36th St. and Coney Island. How about the Q? Was there Q service on Friday the 24th?
The T ran Sat., but through the tunnel. The Q ran Fri. as normal, as the bridge was not closed until about 8 PM, when the Q stopped running anyway.
Steve: I seem to remember that all four Southern Division services ran on that Saturday; N,QT,RR and T. Albeit via tunnel and on a somewhat reduced schedule. Broadway trains continued to run via the tunnel until early Monday morning,November 27. The Q did run on Friday the 24th. The last train from Broadway over the Bridge (North Side) was a T from Astoria-Coney Island I believe.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Thanks. It probably seemed a little funny to see a QT running on Saturday; after all, it normally ran at the same time the Q did. OTOH, since all trains were using the tunnel that weekend, and since that designation just happened to be available, it was a no-brainer. I would imagine they were using R-32s on the QT if they were being re-signed as D trains. Let me guess: the T trains were re-signed as B trains, right?
Couldn't have, because the B didn't run on midnights and Sundays. It was still the TT shuttle until the next group of changes in 1968, when the B became full time.
Hi,
If you click the "Simple Search" link at the top of the index you can limit your index view by author or subject (partial matches, case insensitive searches). It works well if you use chronological, all bets are off if you use threaded view -- it should work but it might look strange.
-Dave
I'm glad you brought searching back, Dave.
Thanks Dave. I find it really handy in compressed view for checking on responses to my posts. (It also shows me all of Todd Glickman's posts when I am searching for mine, but it always used to do that before you disabled searching.)
Last night, around 10:30pm, @ BMT TSQ-42, saw an R-68 consist pull out northbound with: a blue circle 'K' on one side route sign, an upside-down yellow, circle 'W' on another, and an orange diamond 'B' on one car-end. The end route designators and other side rollsigns read the usual yellow, circle 'N', and the destinations read "Ditmars Blvd. Astoria/Coney Island." The train was OOS.
Apparently, someone was having fun with the signs.
Having fun?I think people at the yard were not doing there job and sabotaging the destination signs.
This sounds like the Manh Br test train.
I saw that earlyer this week while railfaning
I was at the Transit Museum the other day and much to my disappointment, both of the Nostalgia Trains coming up are sold out. Thankfully, we still have that March of Dimes fieldtrip.
Dan
But, better not procrastinate or you'll miss that one too !
Mr t__:^)
I knew that would happen when the article came out in the Times!
Uh..........Is there one D-Type unit on display in the Museum they could press into service ? This would bring in more money for the Museum.
DUH !!
Bill "Newkirk"
How 'bout throwing in the standard, too. And the Q car.
"How 'bout throwing in the standard, too. And the Q car."
I hope you're kidding, those cars won't MU with the D-Types.
If the next two specials are sold out, I hope the Museum at least considered using the display D-Type unit in the Museum. That way it won't be a sell out so soon and they could bring more money in. Oh well, I was thinking out loud again !
Bill "Newkirk"
I was kidding. Anyway, the museum patrons of the day might miss it. Too bad there aren't any more.
Hmm, we appear to be experiencing a car shortage.
Don't understand it ... most of the Nostalgia Trips, till now, used all three D-Type units ... why are the recent trips only using two sets?
--Mark
I heard 6095 currently won't run under its own power.
I got tickets for the July 29th one. I was lucky. I don't know why the Museum only has like 3 a year. They seem to do very well. I feel a little guily because this is the second one I've been on. But, this time I'm going with my friend.
Is the museum willing to charter old cars, so to speak? Perhaps a group of SubTalkers could pitch in for a private outing.
They do just that, so you have to make arrangements. I saw the D types out on a private session last fall. The museum confirmed what I saw.
I think the Fall trip of which you speak was for big contributors of the museum ... it was "private" from that standpoint.
Mr t__:^)
Yet the museum people did tell me that private trips can be arranged. Ask them yourself and see. I did not ask the cost, but it may be up there.
Give my regards to those gentle behemoths.
What with the coming of the R-62s to the 7 line, the question of how to link the 11 car sets that the 7 normally runs is posed. Some stations on the 7 line (offhand, Willets Pt. and Vernon-Jackson) are large enough to admit another car.
The 7 line is one of the more heavily used lines in the system, servicing much of Northern Queens on its own. It's the only subway link for people in north-eastern Queens, who take the bus to the 7 in droves.
My proposal: Extend all of the platforms to 612' and a little more to allow for breathing room and put an R-62 single on each end of the train. Everyone is happy! Railfans get windows, harried passengers get more train and great A/C. T/Os are less happy. Hm. Assuming unlimited budget, as always, all T/Os get a big raise to counterbalance the loss of their full-width cabs.
Thoughts?
Dan
The R-62 measures 55 feet in length. Is it longer than a Redbird? Is a Redbird 10-car consist shorter than an R-62 consist?
And also, will #7 trains made up of R-62's (and/or 62a's) be ten or eleven cars? I believe only the #3 line has single 62's, the R-62's from Westchester and 240 Street yards seem to made up into 5 car trainsets. I'm not too familar with the number of available cars, but if singles from the #3 are used to made eleven car #7 trains, will there be enough cars's for the #3 line (I also believe I heard somewhere, most likely on this board that the #3 line would use 10 car trains as more cars become avaiable to the system as R-142's go on line).
The trains are (hypothetically) 2 5-car sets of 62s/62As with one R-62 single at each end, making 12 cars.
Dan
The R-62 is 51' the same length and width as a redbird.Specs here
Peace,
ANDEE
Thank you. So what's the issue? Why would platforms have to be lengthened to accommodate exactly the same sized or shorter (10 car) train?
Platforms would have to be lenghtened and the number of conductors doubled to run 12 car trains with a net gain of 9% in service level. The same maximum service level gain can be accomplished by running 10% more trains, with no constrution costs and with far fewer additional personnel. The same number of additional cars would be required for both improvements.
they are not going to extend every single station on the 7. and who cares. as long as the r62a's have that little narrow window at the end and front of the car, its all good
I don't think that you can add more trains with the turnaround situation at Times Square. I've seen it mentioned in previous threads that trains over a certain length would need a second conductor. If I remember correctly in the early days of the "IND' they ran eleven cars and had two conductors near each end. How long can a train be in feet for one conductor to operate it? If I'm not mistaken the longest trains today are 600 feet. Is the rule in # of cars or # of feet. Thank you.
I don't think that you can add more trains with the turnaround situation at Times Square.
Times Sq. can theoretically handle 40 tph. That's the purpose of the tail tracks. They did handle 36 tph a generation ago. There has been no change in equipment nor structure, only personnel.
Judging by the fact that R-44-68 are 75' and BMT cars before that were 60' I guess it is a matter of feet.Maybe 75' is the limit since the R-110B and R-143 are going back to 60' instead of staying at 75'
The R-110B is 67' long.
The original arbitrator's decision went as follows.
At that time there were two conductors on practically all rush hour trains. The position was between the first two cars and between the last and next to last car. The conductors had a single car on one side and multiple cars on the other. The arbitrator stated that the additional work that the conductors would be doing would not be unsafe, if the length that they had to control was within the maximum length that they handling with two conductors.
For 10 car trains this meant that each of the two conductors were controlling 1 car towards the end of the train and 4 cars towards the middle of the train. For 11 car trains (IND E&F), this meant that one of the conductors was controlling 1 car towards the end and 5 cars towards the middle and the other was controlling 1 car towards the end and 4 cars towards the middle. The arbitrator ruled that conductors should be able to control two sections of five cars.
This ruling meant that a 10 car train could run with one conductor and the existing 11 car trains on the Queens Blvd Line would require 2 conductors. The TA solved that problem by removing the extra car.
Problem is you gotta be 6 feet tall to see out that little cubicle of a window. And most of the time they are blocked anyway.
Thank you. So the goal is a 12 car train. Not a bad idea on that line.
The maximum platform length that a single conductor can control in a single direction is 300 ft, according to an arbitrator's ruling back in the 1950's. Twelve car division A trains would require 2 conductors, unless the TWU were willing to reach some accomodation with the TA. There are currently 30 tph in the morning, with round trip running time approximately 1 hr. So, you will need at least 60 more conductor positions and will have to shorten trains for night and weekend use.
There is a car shortage. They currently have 35 trainsets at Corona, so you will need 35 additional cars. There will be greater shortages in the near future, when the folly of dedicated trainsets permeates all of Division A operations.
The net effect of running 12 car trains will be to increase service by 9%
There is an alternative. They can run more trains per hour. They have in the past. They currently run 30 tph (up from 27 tph). They used to run 36 tph in the late 60's and early 70's.
They could take 33 of the 35 required cars and form them into 3 additional trainsets. This would increase the peak capacity to 33 tph for a 10% increase. This would require 3 additional train crews or 6 more line positions, as opposed to 60.
There would be no necessity to break trains apart to save on night and weekend manpower. There would be no necessity or associated cost or delay in extending train platforms.
All they need to do is to figure out some way to dredge up some operating cars.
I don't think the signaling system can handle 12 car trains efficiently (if at all). There would probably have to be a lot of work done if they were to even try that.
>There would be no necessity or associated cost or delay in extending train platforms.<<
Where did you get that idea from???
Consider the placement of signals you have them at the front end of the platform and some at the back end at the entrance to the station. Do you intend for them to build the extension around the signals? That would not be safe for train movement.
What about the platforms in underground portion? They would have to start knocking down tunnel walls to extend platforms. That would cost real big $$.
>>All they need to do is to figure out some way to dredge up some operating cars. <<
A very interesting comment "dredge" when you consider one plan is to use retired Redbirds as an artificial reef somewhere.
I think you responded to the wrong post. Stephen Bauman was arguing AGAINST extending platforms; but rather increasing the number of trains per hour.
But aren't conductors on the 7 already controlling six cars in one
direction? So it must be okay to control six cars in both.
I'd surprised if they extend the platforms, though.
Damn...I'd forgotten about the conductor requirements. Just an idea.
Dan
Money Train on Cinamax tonight Friday Jul. 6th., in the East at 10PM. Wesley, Woody,& Robert Blake (its my train).....
That movie was terrible (except for the "Money Train" itself). Was it Jennifer Lopez's debut?
Jennifer is in movie, I think it was her 1st. one
Oh goody, Money Train.
The most inaccurate piece of drivel ever made about any kind of transit.
I did a synopsis of all the goof ups and what now about a week ago, here is the link to the post......
Click Here - Post #233176
And yes this movie was J.Lo's Debut to the screen!
Regards,
T.Lo
www.transitalk.com
They put all that effort into trying to make a "real" subway set in LA and all they could come up with are R-30s? Why couldn't they get a couple of R-38's or an R-46 and build dummy trailers which would be hauled behind the motor car?
As to the stations, isit possible they didn't want the stations to be absolutely correct?
I remember an old Law and Order episode about a crime on the subway. The actors came out of a "28th St" station which was labelled as if it were Times Square: A-B-C-D-E-F-N-R and a couple of IRT lines for good measure.
I think this was really a station on the 8th Av line, serving the C and E only.
Sure it wasn't 42 Street-Lower Level?
I guess it's possible.
Watched it again------New facts 20 min. into movie Wesley scaming as a drunk on the platform is approached by two big women. Both are beer'ed up they want to take him home. One of the women is Jannet from the Soprano's. Tony's sister. This movie released 1995. She's come a long way since ten
Hello List:
I'm new to the list, but not to New York, moving out 27 years ago, and now thinking of moving back when I retire. I stumbled onto this webpage and am grateful. With the fountains of information available, somebody should be able to answer my question. If nobody can answer, I guess it means, it's not worth knowing.
I noticed that on the IRT, there are three roll signs in each car, listing the two terminals and then the description of the line, e.g. 7th Avenue Express, Lexington Avenue Express. I distinctly remember 30 years ago that the terminal sign was illuminated so that you knew which way the train was going. Today, the unsuspecting can get on the wrong train and go the wrong way. (This can happen on a center platform station, e.g. Wall Street.) If you miss the sign "Uptown and the Bronx" or "Downtown and Brooklyn" hanging from the ceiling, you can go the wrong way.
Does anybody know why the interior roll signs aren't illuminated any more? Is it the TA can't afford new bulbs or is to save electricity.
Michael
The side signs have not been illuminated in I would say over 20 years.
My guess is that it was a labor/cost saving measure to discontinue maintaining the bulbs and related electrical systems for the sign boards.
They were still used before the R33-36 became red.
I would say up until 1989. I'm not sure.
Often showed the wrong direction anyway...
The 4/5 Wall Street Platforms are side wall platforms, not island/middle platforms.
He was talking about the roll signs in the trains not the signs in the stations.
I was referring to the comment on Wall Street being a center platform.
When I wrote that Wall Street is a center island platform, I didn't specify which Wall Street station. I was referring to the #2/#3 Wall Street station on the 7th Avenue/B'way Line.
Next time I'll remember to be more specific.
Michael
This feature was removed when the r-26 through R-38 cars were GOH'd back in the mid to late 1980's. Can't really tell you why, although the low voltage circuit breakers that controlled these (#10 & 11) still exist in the #2 cabs on the R-32's.
I noticed that on the IRT, there are three roll signs in each car, listing the two terminals and then the description of the line, e.g. 7th Avenue Express, Lexington Avenue Express
It's not necessary IRT trains that have those signs, just the older stock on either division, the IRT "Redbirds" (R26,28,29,33,36--both Mainline and Worlds Fair varieties), and the BMT/IND R32s and R38s. Anyway, the redbirds are about to be phased out, and the R38's will be on their way out in a few years (not right away.)
The R40, R42, R62, R68, and pre-GOH R44 and R46 have (or had) those luxuriant rollsigns with the big bullet and both destinations but no route name and still no indication of direction. I still think they're the best rollsigns, though.
The current R44 and R46 as the new guys, the R142 all have digital signs (The r142 has a decent LED, while the 44 and 46 have puke yellow LCDs.) One thing they DO provide is direction---the only terminal shown is the one the train is heading towards, and they do show the route name too, but not both at the same time, and the route color is sacrificed. I actually think these signs are pretty lousy on the whole.
:-) Andrew
I rode the F line to Coney Island July 4.
The Nathan's Hot Dog Eating contest was fun - Where did that guy put Fifty Frankfurters? Is he still among the living? Did he have his stomach pumped afterward? All jokes aside, I congragulate him on establishing a record which should stand for at least awhile (Look, if Cal Ripken can break Lou Gehrigs record, nothing is safe!!)
Anyway, my question is this: There are two center tracks at Church Street, which are not in use. Were these ever used, or were these for the IND "Second System."
They were used at one time. The F train used to have 2 services in Brooklyn. An Express that terminated at Kings Highway. A Local that
went all the way down to Coney Island.
For a short time the G was extended to Church Street as well. The track acted as the terminal.
We are talking 1970's.
By the way - that guy has a hollow leg. Where else would 50 franks go?
I think you may mean Church Avenue. The center tracks are presently used only during GOs and special events. This may change in the future. Currently, new facilities are being built at Church Avenue so that it may be used as a terminal (presumably by the G at some later date)
I read an earlier post that stated the express tracks were unusable, except for GOs, after the tower fire a year or 2 ago- that tripppers need to be tied down, flag-men posted, etc......
It's really true that there's a current project to restore full functionality to these tracks? It would be a shame for them to be used for GOs only, which often leads to total abandonment.
(It's really true that there's a current project to restore full functionality to these tracks? It would be a shame for them to be used for GOs only, which often leads to total abandonment. )
Yes, a project to rebuild the Bergen Street interlocking is scheduled to be awarded soon.
I assume you guys are talking about Church Av station. The late, great F express history of the early 1970's is as follows:
First, all F's ran express Bergen to Church, both directions during rush hours. From Church to Kings Highway, the CI F ran express in the peak direction while the Kings Highway F ran local. The GG (as it was designated then) ran local to Church Av.
After complaints from the local stop riders between Church and Bergen, the Kings Highway F's ran local. This was still not enough.
Then, all F's ran local, with the GG terminating at Smith-9th. The CI F's ran express express in the peak direction from 18th Av to Kings Highway.
Shortly after this, the whole "experiment" was abandoned.
Anyway, the express tracks going north from Church Av are....express tracks! They "re-appear" at 7th Av.
The express tracks going south exit the portal with the local tracks, and through the 4 into 3 merge prior to Ditmas Av when the IND was extended to incorporate the Culver line in 1954.
Switching off from both the express and local tracks are two other tracks which go to a "mini-yard" underground. Trains that terminate at Church Av use these to turn around.
Someone get salaam a prozac. As of today, all R-36s have been removed from the #6 line. The last 22 were ordered transferred today to Concourse yard for eventual 'emersion'.
As for car #2155. Apparently (after backtracking it in the computer) it was in Corona Yard briefly last week. The manager I spoke to was not sure why. It may simply have been part of a transfer move that either was delayed or broke down there. More later.
> As of today, all R-36s have been removed from the #6 line.
We only saw one or two trainsets on Wednesday including cars 9514 and 9523. Do you have the rest of the numbers, Steve?
-Dave
I have the #s at my office. I received the transfer ticket for the last 22 cars including the ones you mentioned. I don't have the cars yet. I'll try to compile the complete list on Monday
Question for train dude are the redbirds gone fron the # 6 or not ?? ( thank you ) see you this fall !!
This may sound Horrible but your redbirds are being pulled out of of service and being sent to the Corona yard where they will be submerged in water.
I suggest you get a tissue salaam.
AHH MAN!!! more mainlines???? give us some r62a's sheeeesh!
Finally a good wash...
last time i was there & checked it out in person... the corona yard was not under water ....................yet !! lol !!
If only they rode the 1 more often... you'd SEE
where the 'boids REALLY are parked...
Corona Yard is frequently under water. The water table around Corona is relatively high and so, anything more than a sprinkle is trouble. The new Corona yard (which will include a new maintenance shop, new car wash, wheel truing machine, a loop and many more tracks) will be raised several feet to prevent this in the future.
What with that creek or river or whatever is is nearby, that is not surprising. The stink coming from it is terrible, and I guess the guys working in the area are used to it by now. That whole area is a wetland, so how about installing a drain-tile system with the new construction so that flooding can be kept to a minimum?
Right you are Train Dude. The Flusing tidal basin is famous for that. Many years ago I worked for a private weather company that had a contract with ConEd. We had to call them
anytime the tide was expected to be more than a foot above normal,
or if heavy rain was expected. They had a yard for their truck fleet
near Corona Yard, and had to move the trucks so they wouldn't get
stranded in water!
I had been up all Friday night this weekend doing various stuff online, when around 3:00 AM I checked the Tribune's weather page and noticed what looked on the radar to be a rather strong thunderstorm moving into the area.
I've always loved watching thunderstorms, so I gleefully walked down to the end of the hallway (where there's a west-facing window with a good view from the 8th floor) and sure enough, I could see an incredible amount of lightning on the western horizon. This was going to be a big one.
About half an hour later the storm finally made its way to where I was, and ended up being one of the most violent thunderstorms I've ever been in. The lightning and thunder was almost continuous, with at least a dozen or so close lightning strikes in my neighborhood. The rain was torrential, and the winds were very strong and gusty. Because I don't have air conditioning, I had my windows and blinds open so I could get some degree of air circulation in my apartment, so I was able to see and hear every detail of this storm.
Around 4:00 or so, the storm seemed to be dying down a bit and I was very sleepy, so I decided to try to get some sleep. The ongoing storm was preventing me from getting a very restful sleep, but I still managed to get some shut-eye off-and-on between blasts of thunder and lightning. This would turn out to be one of the spookiest nights in recent memory... Too bad Halloween is still a few months away.
Around 4:30, while still somewhat asleep, I heard a noise right outside my window that I swear sounded like a man screaming as he fell off a nearby high-rise. I jumped wide awake, with my heart racing a mile a minute, only to realize the sound I heard was actually some cab driver blowing his horn as he drove past my building. It's funny how your mind plays tricks on you when you're half-asleep. With my heart still trying to jump out of my chest, I tried to settle back down and fall asleep again. By this time I noticed the storm had started to pick back up again, with several close lightning strikes and loud blasts of thunder.
I had been asleep for maybe another 20 minutes or so, when all of a sudden my apartment was filled with a blinding flash of white light accompanied by a massive explosion that shook my building to its foundation. I'm still not certain exactly where the lightning hit, but I suspect it was either the elevator penthouse of my building (about 50 feet outside my window) or maybe the taller apartment building next door (also visible from my window). Even with my eyes closed, the flash of light was bright enough to make my eyes hurt, and the thunder was ear-splitting. At such close range, it doesn't even sound like typical thunder; it's more of an extremely loud crackle and then, a split-second later, a deafening explosion.
Needless to say, this scared the living piss out of me and the next thing I know I was standing straight up with the lamp turned on. I walked over to the window half-expecting to see a smoldering ruin where the elevator penthouse used to be, but couldn't see anything to indicate exactly where the lightning had hit.
After a few minutes, the storm again seemed to be dying down a bit, and I deemed it safe enough to plug my computer back in and turn it on. I checked the weather radar again, and two large cells had passed over us that were each colored the darkest red on the radar's color range.
Around 5:00 I eventually got back to sleep and was able to put this weirdest of nights behind me.
What surprised me, though, was the fact that no severe thunderstorm warnings or watches had been issued for the area. Here in the Midwest during spring and summer, severe thunderstorm watches are pretty much a dime a dozen, and most times they either bypass us or amount to little more than just average thunderstorms. In this case, however, we had one of the most severe storms I've ever witnessed, and yet not a single watch box.
My question: Does the National Weather Service have some other criteria for severe storms other than frequent lightning, strong winds and torrential rains; or do they simply prefer to issue storm watches and warnings during prime time so the TV networks can boost their ratings for the evening news?
-- David
Chicago, IL
A severe thunderstorm needs to have wind gusts over 50 knots and/or hail over 3/4 inch, and/or a tornado. Otherwise, it's just a "garden variety" thunderstorm. The frequency or intensity of lightning doesn't come into play in this definition.
Here's a link to more on the subject.
Well, David, I guess I'll have to start having bad dreams about architecture now.
...now, back to the trains!
Well, David, I guess I'll have to start having bad dreams about architecture now.
Doesn't going through NYC Penn Station as often as you do count as an architectural bad dream? :-)
-- David
Chicago, IL
Good point. Fortunately when I wake up, I'm at GCT :-)
I'm here in Northwest FLA right now, (right off the gulf of Mexico) and you should see some of the T'Storms we're getting here, especially with it being so hot (mid 90's) and the humidity and dewpoint so high. They're exactly like the ones you're talking about. They're pretty cool. They come out of nowhere and really unleash a lot of force. The coolest storm here though was by far hurrcane Erin. There was a small tornado on the street about 1/4 mile from my house, and trees and houses were destroyed. We didn't have power (which includes no A/C) for 3 days, and the whole neighborhood was pitch black at night.
I lived in Jacksonville for four years, so I remember the Florida storms very well. During the spring and summer, we could set our clocks by the storms that would appear almost every afternoon around 3:30 PM. Some of them were pretty severe.
Of course, this was always around the time my manager at Winn-Dixie would send me out to the parking lot to round up the stray shopping carts. Hmmm...
-- David
Chicago, IL
I lived in Jacksonville for four years, so I remember the Florida storms very well. During the spring and summer, we could set our clocks by the storms that would appear almost every afternoon around 3:30 PM. Some of them were pretty severe.
Of course, this was always around the time my manager at Winn-Dixie would send me out to the parking lot to round up the stray shopping carts.
Now, if he sent you up to the roof to adjust the TV antenna, then you're really know he didn't like you :-)
THe worst thunderstorm of my life was at Jones Beach. This was about two years ago. I took the JB62 down to Jones Beach. After about an hour there the beachfront was cleared due to lightning sighting.
I figured I'd head back to the bus stop. Well the storm was moving in. The sky to the northwest was black as night, with constant lightning. All the shelter I had was a metal roof and some seats. And people started to crowd under there as the storm came. A big gust of wind, probably 50mph hit before the storm came. Then the torrential rains, which were horizontal so I got soaked. But the lightning was everywhere, and so close you could feel it. The bus stop is right by the Jones Beach tower, which I believe was struck several times. The lightning was blinding, and the thunder was simultanious. It was scary because I wasn't in a building, as all of whatever few buildings at Jones Beach closed up and the beach and boardwalk became a ghostown, just about 20 of us under a dinky little shelter in what felt like a hurricane with lightning. Everything flooded too. The bus finally came about 15 minutes after the first rain drops fell and it was still coming down. Amazingly the LI Bus CNG Orion, which ran very quiet made it back to the mainland just fine.
I do like thunderstorms but I wouldn't want to go through a storm like that again on the outside.
Part of the reason I don't like Jones Beach is when these quick developing storms arrive, there little place for shelter. Long Beach has buildings along the boardwalk, plus the town is a 5 minute walk so you can usually get there in time when you see the first bolt of lightning in the distance.
Sounds like the doozy of a thunderstorm we had in Denver yesterday. To quote Frank Corrall, "Oh, nothing. Lots of fallen tree branches, flooding on I-25 at Evans Ave., the power's off in places. Aside from that, everything's ginger peachy." Luckily, one of things slated for improvement in the massive rebuilding of I-25 is the drainage system. It's starting in another couple of months.
Flushing-Corona is like one big overflowing toilet. And the poor Redbirds are at it's mercy. Where do they store the trains when it floods?
I lived in Flushing as a child. You're absolutely right about the stink!
Lately, the stench has come from the Mets.
question : a lot of mosquetos around there also ?? & if the r-142 fleet gets flodded out how would they repair those new junkers
that a lot of subtalkers worship the new scrap-ready R-142s ................. ( like the gods-& they are not ) etc...!!!!
And if the flood puts a yard full of R-142s under water how soon would they be able to go back into service ??
& Train Dude ( sir ) all due respects here but wouldnt the R-142s be just like the new automobiles etc.....
ONCE THEY GO UNDER WATER THEY ARE FINISHED & DONE & JUNK READY FOR SCRAP !!! he he he he LOL !!!
I really would appreciate your expert response to this sir !! thank you !!!
Salaam, the sir is really not necessary. Many years ago (over 18) there was a water main break on Bruckner Blvd. on the #6 line. 4 trains were submerged on a Saturday AM, some up to the roofline. All were what has become known as redbirds. After we pulled them out, they were all dieseled up to 207th Street. They were hosed down to get rid of the sewage and other debris. The group switch boxed was also hosed down. Once they were powered up the propulsion systems on over 1/2 of them functioned normally. The air systems, of course, needed to be purged and then repaired. They were great cars for their day.
About 13 years ago, two R-68A trains were trapped in a flood at 145th Street. The floors and most of the converters were damaged.
About 10 years ago, 2 trains of R-46s were trapped at Parsons Blvd. on the F line by a flash-flood due to rain. The floors survived as did the propulsion packages but 3 converters (out of 8) needed to be replaced.
The R-142, R-142A and R-143 have a much higher reliance on electronics, especially in the propulsion area. I would expect that under the same circumstances, they would be much more severely damaged (although I doubt not to the point of scrapping). Such is the nature of electronics. Yes, we could make them water-tight or water-proof at the expense of increased weight. The point is we don't make them with snow plows on the front end. We don't build them to withstand tornados, They are not built to withstand tidal waves. The cars are built to perform optimally under a normal range of environmental conditions. You deal witht he extremes when the extremes occur.
Now just to clarify, the older cars were not all that great in less than extreme conditions. The Westinghouse cars would be sluggish in the winter if they didn't freeze altogether. The GE cars would have a rough time in extreme heat. Stone Safety A/C motors were burning out, especially on the R-32s that were layed up in tunnels where the ambient rose to over 100 degrees.
To summerize my answer for you: yes, the R-142/142A/143s will sustain more damage in floods than their predecessors did. But how often do we have floods of that nature? On the otherhand, the R-142/142A/143s will perform better than their predecessors over a wider range of normal operating conditions. They will provide greater safety and comfort with less maintenance. Yes, they've had their teething problems and some of those problems have been significant. But those problems are less significant than some of the problems that plagued the R42s, theR-44/R-46 and the R-68s. Keep in mind that the R-44s and R-46s had to be completely overhauled after 15-20 years before they were considered reasonably reliable. It took 10 years to get the R-68s tot he point at which they now perform. Before you lock yourself into a precarious position of being associated with the ultimate doom of the R-142/142A/143s, why don't you wait and see what happens.
The R-142, R-142A and R-143 have a much higher reliance on electronics, especially in the propulsion area. I would expect that under the same circumstances, they would be much more severely damaged (although I doubt not to the point of scrapping). Such is the nature of electronics. Yes, we could make them water-tight or water-proof at the expense of increased weight.
Even the 142's et. seq. are a lot more flood-resistant than motor vehicles. Submerge a regular motor vehicle in floodwaters, and it's junk yard time!
>>> Even the 142's et. seq. are a lot more flood-resistant than motor vehicles. Submerge a regular motor vehicle in floodwaters, and it's junk yard time! <<<
That's because of the relatively low price of an automobile and the use of fabrics and padding in the interiors. If cars had hard plastic seats and no headliners, it probably would be economical to tear down the engine and clean it up. It's the interior of the car that is never the same again, and some unscrupulous used car dealers do buy and resell flood damaged cars.
Tom
some unscrupulous used car dealers do buy and resell flood damaged cars.
Quite true. Crafty dealers have a way of "sanitizing" salvage titles.
thats the same reason they had to rebuild casey stengel depot back in 1993(?).
when they built the original they only put pilings around the exterior walls causing the center of the floor to sag and water from underground to seep up.
I know that I answered this question elsewhere but perhaps it bears repeating;
The R-36 Redbirds (or redfins) have been removed from service. The R-29s etc may still be in their death-throws for another few days.
There is still one set running as of Saturday 7/7/01 Operating Motor 9523 was running. One of the trips was the 09:49 Pelham/ Brooklyn Bridge.
>>>Someone get salaam a prozac.<<<
He needs more than that...much more.
Peace,
ANDEE
Prozac, Ritlin, a Tranquilizer Dart, Maybe a Titanium Be Be Bullet!
Regards,
T.Lo
www.transitalk.com
What about N2O?
ROTFLMAO
My Brother !! ( T.Lo ) !!! I do hope you are not one of THOSE PEOPLE who go outside every fourth of july & every new years
eve / new years day & point your gun up to the sky & start shooting !! remember the bullet you fire does come down! ( somewhere )
it is not a good idea to do anywhere !!
"My Brother !! ( T.Lo ) !!! I do hope you are not one of THOSE PEOPLE who go outside every fourth of july & every new years
eve / new years day & point your gun up to the sky & start shooting !! remember the bullet you fire does come down! ( somewhere )"
Not if one uses blanks.
!! yes but you may live in an area that uses gunshot monitors etc......... the police are on the way to see why you did this !!
lol !!!....??
Not all have been removed. On the way home this evening I saw 2 full sets of redbirds and at least a pair sitting in the back in Westchester Yard.
Also as the train of R62A's that I was on was approaching Pelham Bay Park at train of Redbirds was pulling out - In service. I was looking in the opposite direction at first so I only caught a few of the car numbers: 9545, 9523, 9524.
Who knows there may have been others still out on the road somewhere.
I said they've been removed from service! They may physically be in Pelham (Westchester) Yard but they are out of service pending transfer to Concourse Yard. According to the managers at pelham Yd., there are no more redbirds in service on the #6 line.
According to the managers at pelham Yd., there are no more
redbirds in service on the #6 line
You said the R36's were pulled. What about the 29's?
R-29s were on the 6 this evening.
I did see 2 sets of R36's today running out of Parkchester so I guess I seen them on there last run.
Myself and Pel Exp had 3 R142A's today.
I saw one set heading northbound from 59th at about 2:50 PM.
Residents who trespass on Norfolk Southern's Columbia and Port Deposit branch to fish in the Susquehanna River have been warned by NS to desist. Some had built docks on PRR property and have used them for generations, but this is now, and NS can claim concern about liability.
Story from Pailpace
Fish and Boat Commission statement
I'll bet if some trains started derailing NS would change their tune. You don't screw with back woods people...EVER!
A reasonable solution would be for NS to construct a pedestrian crossing or two over the ROW to allow access. The article also says there is a designated grade crossing, so there is no excuse for anyone to cross railroad tracks unsafely.
I believe that you have mis-read the commission article. Only official fishing holes have designated grade crossings, it says. The squatters' don't.
I wonder if it is possible to obtain a presriptive easement across a railroad ROW or to obtain title to railroad land by adverse possession. If so, and assuming that these docks have been there long enough, their users may have a right to keep them there and to cross the ROW to get to them.
That depends on a lot of things. But I imagine a compromise can be worked out. NS should be able to operate their trains efficiently and safely, and the fishing enthusiasts should have reasonable access to the water via safe venues.
I wonder if it is possible to obtain a presriptive easement across a railroad ROW or to obtain title to railroad land by adverse possession. If so, and assuming that these docks have been there long enough, their users may have a right to keep them there and to cross the ROW to get to them.
I believe that in most states, possibly all, property owned by railroads (and usually also public utilities) cannot be taken by adverse possession.
i forgot to say that they already put alot of houses or control rooms or whatever that is called on alot of stations. they are white colored with a/c's on them. is that for cbtc too or what?
CBTC WON'T BE COMING TO THE 7 LINE UNLITT IT IS PROVING ON THE "L". THIS WON'T BE UNTILL ABOUT 2006 OR SO.
ROBVBERT
I was at Hoyt st on the A train when I saw 3 Redbird cars on the closed platform I wonder if they have room with its worlds fair predecessor in the museum.
They have room for maybe one car but not all 3. I don't know if they would put only 1/2 of a married pair there. But to put both of the pair would just be a waste of track space.
When the R-32s,38s,&40s retire do you think they will fit in transit museum?
Probably not.
Those will most likely sit in Coney Island yard with other cars. Unless they can figure a place to relocate the Museum to larger faciltites they will have be very choosy as to what to display.
Or as I said in an earlier post either yesterday or today, the Transit Museum like all museums will have to rotate its collection. IIRC, I read somewhere that the average museum only displays about 10% of its collection at any one time, so I would not be adverse to the NYTM rotating cars between Court St. and Ci Yard. Would give railfans a reason to visit more often. More admissions = more revenue.
The TA rotate Museum equipment? Yeah right.
They have R30 #8506, which, IIRC, is a half married pair.
They already have an R33 single stashed in there.
There is also an R17. Does this count, or does it have to be R26 - R36?
Anyone with subway maps from 1979-1989 give a holler .I am willing to pay money for them.
I've got a bunch of 'em, most of them I aquired myself from MTA when they were new. I also have older ones from the 1960s that my mother let me have when I was a kid, as she didn't see any use for 'em, as they were outdated.
Also, I occaisonally find decent ones laying around my office when we move furniture, etc, although those soemtimes have marks on them- somebody was going someplace or whatever.
But in 1999, nobody but our crowd here would miss a 1974 subway map, LOL.
And, I'm sorry, NONE are for sale.
>>>>And, I'm sorry, NONE are for sale.
The poor guy is asking to buy some, not to find out how many that you have!
Geez, I'd hate to have you around in the event I accidentally get an open wound. You might pull out a large container of Morton Salt.
I'm sorry. I didnt mean to be nasty. It's just that nobody outside of this community would even care, LOL!!
Sorry :)
I don't think that anybody outside of this message board would even care about ANYTHING on here!
I think you're right on that one, LOL!
I have 1972, 1974, 1978, 1979, 1980, 1987, December 11 from Transit Digest magazine, 1990 (both versions). I may also have 1983. Got a few bus maps for Brooklyn, Queens, Bronx and Manhattan with similar dates as well.
I have a friend who can make full color one-sided copies onto poster paper, no way I'm selling the originals.
Click here for a listing of subway maps on www.ebay.com
You would have to register to bid on any items (it's free).
http://www.queenstribune.com/news.html#news6"Underground Crossings &
'Radar' Cameras For Queens Boulevard", Queens Tribune, 6/28
Using the subway as a pedestrian underpass - "It's pretty cut and dry," DOT sez. It's about time they noticed :).
What planet are they from? I have used the underpass at Kew Gardens to cross Queens Blvd. It's been there for years.
The safest way to cross Queens Blvd is via the subway's mezzanine.
I completely agree, and I've always done the same. I'm just amazed that it took DOT this long to figure it out, after spending so much time and money studying pedestrian overpasses...
Yeah. You don't have to be Einstein to figure this one out. Still, it's an imperfect solution for those who may have problems climbing too many stairs.
:-) Andrew
It would be a good time, then to try and get some ADA funding for elevators to be installed at those stations, which could also serve people needed to use the underpass but unable to climb and/or descend the stairs. Each station would probably need four elevators -- street to mezzanine fare control area on both sides of Queens Blvd. and then mezzanine to platform for both eastbound and westbound platforms -- but it would still probably be cheaper than erecting overpasses.
Excellent point. The elevator to mezzanine would provide a nice way to let people cross the Blvd - or continue within fare control on another elevator to the train.
Yes, very good.
Who's tab it's going to is the question? How can TA justify non revenue generating expenses?
Arti
If the TA was going to build those overpasses, why not elevators instead?
DOT would have had to build the overpasses not TA.
Arti
So let DOT build the elevators.
>>> How can TA justify non revenue generating expenses? <<<
Isn't the TA obligated under the ADA to incur the expense of making the system ADA compliant? Why not do it first at stations which will benefit the most people?
Tom
[Isn't the TA obligated under the ADA to incur the expense of making the system ADA compliant? Why not do it first at stations which will benefit the most people? ]
They are, but for transit access. Also wouldn't you say that the key stations would be the priorty. Another thing is that it's usually (and I believe mandated) done during station rehabs.
Arti
Plus the MTA might even be able to get a few $$ from the Department of Transportation for the project, since the DOT would be saving a bunch of money by not having to built those overpasses.
Excellent point. The elevator to mezzanine would provide a nice way to let people cross the Blvd - or continue within fare control on another elevator to the train.
Yes, very good.
I'd call for a study. I highly doubt that anyone would use it regardless. Most people would rather sacrifice their safety to save few seconds.
Arti
Barricading the crossing areas (the sidewalk parts of the traffic islands) at sites above the subway stations on Queens Blvd. would help "encorage" people to use the mezannine underpasses, or try to cross in the middle of the traffic coming up or down the side street, which is not a viable option for most people (and there's nothing radical about this, since there are several cross streets along Broadway at the major avenue intersections between 14th and 72nd streets where no pedestrian walkway is set up, in order to force people to use safer alternatives, albeit above-ground ones).
[Barricading the crossing areas (the sidewalk parts of the traffic islands) at sites above the subway stations on Queens Blvd. would help "encorage" people to use the mezannine underpasses, ]
Doesn't seem to work in Midtown.
Arti
>>> Still, it's an imperfect solution for those who may have problems climbing too many stairs. <<<
You hit the nail on the head there. The old and infirm, the ones least able to dodge traffic, also have the most difficulty using the stairs. Maybe this should be a reason to increase the priority to make the stations in the area ADA compliant.
I have knee problems which make stairs painful to climb or descend, but I am still able to use stairs when necessary. Since I have not personally seen the traffic on Queens Boulevard lately, I do not know whether I would use the underpass or not to cross, but I would have to be really afraid of the traffic to use the stairs.
Tom
Another reason to keep the booths--many senior citizens avoid these underpasses because they are often deserted and the seniors fear crime. Late at night, especially at the main booth, there arwe many people waiting just inside the fare control, under the watchful eyes of a friendly neighborhood station agent!
Another reason to keep the booths--many senior citizens avoid these underpasses because they are often deserted and the seniors fear crime.
They can pay money to be chauffeured around. I don't want to have to pay a higher fare to support somebody's salary just because somebody has irrational fears.
You're absolutely right- somehow all the underpass advocates have completely overlooked the fact that a lot of people who have difficulty getting across the Boulevard on ground level would have MORE difficulty going up and down stairs.
Also overlooked is that there isn't a station and underpass at every corner. It's a good seven blocks between the underpasses 67th Drive and 70th Road, and somebody needing to cross the Boulevard at 69th Avenue will not be inclined to walk that far out of the way just to use an underpass.
Not only that, the distance between the stairs to the street and the token booth at 67th Avenue is very long (due to the extreme width of the Boulevard) and rather dark. The only time there's a lot of people using it is when departing an outbound train. Otherwise it's a mugger's buffet.
AP article, picked up by a northern NJ paper
http://www.bergen.com/biz/amtrak06200107061.htm
it's about how Amtrak is branching out into mail, fast freight, souvenirs, and station amenities in order to gain more revenue.
The ARC wants them to stick to only passengers & mail.
Looks like that debt is going to kill them mighty quick unless they get a bailout or can refinance it.
HEY! Now they can have acela Mail trains!
I was riding PATCO today when, as our train was passing Collinswood, the dispatcher got on the horn and ordered every train to limit themselves to 20 in the subway and 40 on the mainline. Our T/O (the cool blond haired one with the tatoos) said that this happens when there is some sort of power distrabution problem. Well I rode it out of Lindenwold to see the 401 and 402 cars (at 40 mph). Once there they coupled on two more cars (to make a 6) and we were about to head out when the dispatcher ordered the T/O to put the train in Emergency. He did and about 4 minuttes later all these track workers climbed up from the tracks having done a ground inspection. This is when we found out what the problem was. Some train had some sort of ground fault and had blown out two main power feeds. They were limiting the trains to 40 as they did not want the faulty train to blow out the other one. After our train was inspected we were cleared for 65. All in all it was a very interesting ride and my train ended up pacing an NJT train on the way back to Haddonfield.
Are 401, 402 and 404 still in the Lindenwold yard?
Yes. Right where you left them.
/*(the cool blond haired one with the tatoos)*/
This is why I could never be a T/O or locomotive (driving) engineer. people would run out of the train if they saw me, with long hair, biker jacket, etc, hop into the cab. Heh. I don't have any tattoos (yet).
Anyway, Patco is a bizzare system. It ranks as the *only* transit system I've ever been trapped inside, thanks to those god aweful turnstiles.
Man, how OLD are they, anyway?
YOU SHOULDA SEEN what the "ta" hired in the late 60's/early 70's. Heh. Beside biker types, longhaired hippie types, and lots of folks that didn't look like what people would have expected between the cars or up front. When I was a "hippie conductor," I usually got teamed up with a guy who looked like Lt. Harris from Barney Miller (Ben) or this guy Chuck who looked like the character "Animal" in "Cheech and Chong's Nice Dreams" (Biker - "wanted - hates Mexicans") ... Chuck never got any guff when he chose any table he wanted at Stillwell. Heh.
The TA has usually had a wonderful diversity of people and attitudes over the years - if you can keep your nose clean and do the job, they don't much care WHAT you look like as long as you're clean and presentable and learned the gig.
That speaks well of your employer.
Heh. What can I say? Back then they were DESPERATE for warm meat and paid OUTRAGEOUS opening salaries to "reel 'em in" ... literally a civil service test and a dream. :)
1968 through 1972 appeared to be a "peak time" for retirements and there were serious staff shortages at the time as a result. Literally, new hires were "fast tracked" ... I wanted R1/9's, by gum, I *got* em. And after being on the road as a conductor and promoted to motorman after only about 4 months as a conductor, you could just SENSE the panic in hummin' resources ("personnel" at the time) to move anybody up who could tell a handle from a bottlecap and didn't REFUSE the school car ... I tell ya, I was psyched and DAMNED lucky to have gotten the promotion.
Granted, as it turned out after a yard move mishap caused by a bad gasket, I washed out of the corps ... but I really enjoyed it while it lasted, despite all sorts of ridiculous crap at the hands of a few who didn't like the fact that I was 1) a new hire, 2) promoted like sheet through a goose and 3) "hung out with the wrong elements" while on duty ... out alone in a cab or playing car monkey, it was a gas. When I had to hang with some not-so-nice coworkers who didn't like the idea that "freaks and minority type individuals were taking over the system" the gig really chewed ... but out on the road, we were all (was it Zman? said) just looking for our biweekly nut ... GREAT times with the D train crews I worked with ... on the road.
And EVERY day was an adventure. I remember an RCI named Dale who was also someone who made my day. Now Dale was one of those guys who would also scare the geese ... Ex-Marine who had a way with R1/9's ... he'd break out the hammer and DAMN if the car wouldn't submit to his bangings. They were AFRAID of this guy. When he boarded, the train closed up and BEHAVED. Heh.
Anyway, Patco is a bizzare system. It ranks as the *only* transit system I've ever been trapped inside, thanks to those god aweful turnstiles.
Man, how OLD are they, anyway?
The present PATCO turnstiles replaced the originals, so they're not as old as PATCO.
What did the originals look like? The current red ones ane the only ones I've ever known. I saw one being maintainenced the other day. The insides are really cool.
The current ones date to the late 1970's, I believe. The originals were a two-set affair with each set looking a little like a clamshell. When you put your ticket in, the first set opened and the second set remained closed. When you took your ticket (or, if you were exiting and your ticket was 'eaten'), the first set closed and the second opened. When you cleared the second set, it closed. These were a nightmare when crowds appeared at stations, e.g. in PM rush hours when 6-car trains let out crowds.
I thought I had heard somewhere that PATCO was going to replace the turnstiles and the ticket system soon. Apparently only ticket encoder is still working (at Lindenwold shop). Whether it will go to a stored value system, like BART and WMATA, or retain the station-specific type, I don't know.
I checked the dates in the PATCO history. The new turnstiles date to 1976. The prototype went into service at Ferry Ave in '75.
Are there any pics of the old equipment?
Page 25 of The Lindenwold Hi-Speed Line by Bill Vigrass (1990), published by and available from West Jersey Chapter NRHS, available by mail for $10 + $1.50 shipping.
It's a half-page photo of row of turnstiles in the Lindenwold station, complete with the news stand that used to be there.
What did you do to get stuck? Most PATCO riders have gotten stuck at one point or another and that's why the turnstyles are so easy to jump. I've had to jump on at least 3 non-consecutive occasions.
I was wondering what makes diamonds and siscors crossovers so expensive to maintain. All I know is that railroads are avoiding them like the plague. Now something like a double slip switch is clearly a maintainence nightmare, but diamonds and siscors just sit there.
Flanges going over them beat them to hell and they need a truck literally parked near many. Gack when there was a pair of them here in Voorheesville before ChickenSheetExpress (CSX) forced CP to lose them, there were crews around constantly tweaking them. The cuts through them are similar to the old rail gaps prior to welded rail and they do take a beating.
I'm going back to school for an internship on Sunday so I decided I should take one last SEPTA ride. My plan was to ride the BSS down to Patison and then back to Walnut-Locust. Well I rode down (see Transverse Cab post) and we pulled into the 4 track at Pattison. Well I passed through the train and sat down at railfan seat in the new lead car. Well we get to Oregon and the T/O opens up the door and askes me where I'm getting off. I ask "why" and he asked me again. I say Walnut-Locust and he says something like "I saw you ride down and you not suposted to Something Something. Something Something." and then he closed the door.
Why was he yelling at me and what was I doing wrong? Is there some SEPTA policy against joy-rides?
>>>....Something Something. Something Something." and then he closed the door.<<<
Could you please elaborate?
Peace,
ANDEE
It was too noisy. I didn't hear what he was exactly saying, but it was something about taking a joy ride.
A joy ride??? On a subway???? What's this world coming to?
Maybe the T/O caught Mike trying to hotwire the dash. :)
There could be some truth to that. I know of subway and/or streetcar operators that don't like railfans hanging around because they are afraid that if they get out of the driver's seat or the cab, the railfan will sit down at the controls in half a second and take of, or at least try to. It seems to be less of a concern in the subway though, my my best guess is that you can take away the reverser key, control key if applicable, and then lock the cab door.
-Robert King
Heh. I doubt Mike would try that ... now *I* on the other hand, when I was 15 or 16, took a live Broadway Local from 242 and ditched it at 191 and booked out the emergency exit to the street when I noted police cars chasing us under the el ... and no, I wasn't the one in the cab but I did go along for the ride. So yeah, it's a worthwhile fear and it HAS happened in the NYC subways. I wasn't the first and I wasn't the last. :)
YO---S E L K I R K --- T (m)/O - speaking about taking that train (Taking of Broadway 007) you fessed to being a part of -(WAS IT A HI-V !?) you remember the young 'bro about 16 or so that took the B division subway train using the
real operators' ID and handles, keys and ran the train SOLO for a few R/trips perfectly (the T/O 's was off that day I think - his knowledge of what kid did in this I cant remember - have to look up that artcile in my 36 book, 60 year span of transit newspaper articles archives I have here) - I believe it was in the mid 1990's - kid did a good job - big
kid- built like a brick shith---se - even his conductor didnt notice anything wrong - made all stops on the disc (or marker) - smoothly - like a bro...er, Pro - EXCEPT...when he blew a tripper on a (I think) -
timer signal and the train "dumped". C/R kept
calling the " T/O" on the radio to see what happened and why the train didnt move after trip "should have been reset''---the kid didnt want to go down to the tracks to reset it because .."it was scary down there" are he was afraid of the tunnels rats he heard about "as big as small dogs..." - Damn - Im going to look it up to find out how they got the train underway after the kid was caught. TA said he actually did a good job in his operational capacities and it was receptive to his stating he desired to be a motorman when he was old enough to be one. Do you remember this kid --I mean, he was carrying passengers for most of the real T/O's shift
till he blew that tripper - otherwise the kid would have completed the "shift" and went home and the real T/O would have gotten paid for the day!!!
AND - no one would have been the wiser--and also
EVEN IF HE DID reset the trip arm and continued on as usual - his C/R might have covered for him!
PS - enjoyed your response to the poster of
Some Septa Jerk yelled at me...re; your being a cab monkey etc. etc. and the feel of running the old cars two handed the old way! The new cars someday will have a MRC model train powerpack type throttle with a little "dimmer switch type" rehostat knob for
power and brake - --or maybe that little "pulse-brake" red button - ha ha ...???!!!
If you are going to use the term "Brick Shithouse" why would you write it "Shith..se"? Did someone make the word house dirty over the weekend?
The purloined train was a plain old redbird out of 242 - the oldies had been long gone by that time. And yeah, read about the kid who took the A train (literally) and hit a timer I *think* rounding the curve into either 161 or 175 and St Nick. I was rooting for him to get a gig with the TA when he got out of school but apparently he went and got himself into more serious trouble a year or two later pretty much ending that possibility for him ... apparently he did a full round trip and was on his way back to 207 when he forgot about that timer and hit it.
Yeah, those slider pots "disco-style" for running the trains these days are as foreign as a joystic operated car. It's nice to know what you're pulling on and with which hand. Now the redbirds are on their way out and as far as I know, they don't do two-fisted operation any longer. Well, there's still museums. :)
PATCO cabs are open. Just pull the curtain aside and hop into the seat! I wonder if PATCO has experienced "joyrides" as a result of that.
The T/O has a "key" that he removes from the console when he leaves the cab, rendering the controls useless. When the T/O leaves the cab at the end of a run, he removes his "key" and locks a plastic cover over the console.
I rode in cabs frequently when I was riding PATCO every day. It was amazing how often the cab was vacant when the car was otherwise SRO. I would also sit in a cab if I planned to take photographs from the train, because I'd open the T/O's window to avoid color distortion from the tinted glass. Alas, the windows are now kept locked, and the T/O unlocks it when he begins his trip.
I've seen PATCO operators chase people out of the cabs even when the train is otherwise SRO. When I've asked, they say it's at their discretion.
I've seen PATCO operators chase people out of the cabs even when the train is otherwise SRO.
I never did it in the first car.
or stealing the builders plate
Heh. Last I checked, a motorman wasn't required to write up missing decoupage, but they'd get MIGHTY honked if you were in the seat, closed up, got indication, released and gave the controller all she got. But ya never know.
It's funny, in the brief time I was with the TA, I was used to the crowd of kids up front, doing 3 stooges numbers to lean up against the cab door while others were pushed to the right of the window (at 19 I thought it was hysterical, I value it even more now at 50) and never even thought twice about "rail fans" being nuts (after all, I *got* MY fantasy with a passing and appointment to the TA) and it never occurred to me that one of my younger "cousins" would be a danger to the sacred church of the P-wire ... but now that you mention it, I can see where some crewsers would be nervous about foamers.
When I did C/R and T/0, if anyone was interested and wanted to talk, I'd tell them stories of "I took a train once, but they made me give it back" and all sorts of what I *thought* I knew at the time. A veritable fountain of insider for the windowkids. It was cool. Then again, in befriending them, questions and observations were getting in my way when I was trying to stop at the marker on a rough grade. It got VERy annoying when the kids didn't have a clue that I was actually playing numbers and trying to figure out where I'd stop, or if I was shooting the timers. Always kept my clip handy on the door if kids were interested and rarely had to get rude with only rare exceptions when the chatter distracted me from feeling my train. You REALLY had to "feel" your train when you were losing acceleration on an upgrade or running too fast on a downgrade. R1/9's coasted like a baby's butt and you really needed to pay attention, especially if you wanted to CHANGE your speed. :)
I guess it despends on the attitude of the monkey in the box. Some of us came into the gig as "buffs" and thus we're more disposed of saying, "here's the controller, and there's three notches, "crawl." "move" and "haul ash" ... and over here is the biggie wrench. I put it near the window and we can go, and if I pull it *HERE* then *YOU* go *THROUGH* the window ... don't screw with me, kid! Heh.
Then there's folks who can't count their balls and come up with the same number twice. We call them "poopers" ... both buffs and crews combined. Let's WHIZ on them!
Well, the T/O isthere to do a job. You're responsible for the safety of up to a couple of thousand people or more, so distractions can be deadly...
When you've been at it for a long while, you can LITERALLY "do it in your sleep" ... having done it, however briefly myself, your hands are full in the cab. Usual route, you shoot the timers, you know the flow of the steel in your face and know your speed for a certain section, and you can tell where you are and when to drop to coast, start yanking your wrench and when to "butterfly it" (at least, that was the way with the OLD cars) and where you would land. Dunno how it works with the newer cars.
But anyone who ran the pre-war cars here can tell ya, you really had to "MERGE" with them in a "vulcan mind meld" kinda thing ... you couldn't look at dials or screens to feel them out and make them do your bidding. You had to "FEEL" them in every way, shape and form. Like the steam locos of yore, the prewar cars each had their own feel and from that, if you learned to read them right, they'd be good to you if you were good to them. But many had PMS too. Heh.
That all said, the "prime directive of the (trumpets please) ... "ta" is that you "shall be in control of your train at all times" ... who gives a sheep about distractions. Somepeople just flip over the responisibilities and thus they herd all bicycles to the south motor. But as I've said before, the diversity of the "ta" brings about an "interesting life" ...
NOW! HEY! What the shuzzbah did Mr. Mike do to so pyth off the cab monkey? (and I can say that in my lily whiteness by proudly yelling that *I, whitebread* was a cab monkey too! (T/O?) woohoo! ;)
Anybody can have a bad day. Assuuming Mike didn't do anything wrong (you didn't, right Mike??) the TO was wrong, but it wasn't a capital offense.
Perhaps he didn't like your riding southbound, then riding northbound again. As far as I know, there is no rule against that, so the TO was out of line.
Back in the day, when PTC had a far less liberal transfer policy than SEPTA has now, I used to ride the bridge train over from Camden, get the Ridge Ave spur from the same platform where I got off the bridge train (PATCO's present 8th & Market platform), and ride to Girard. Girard has a northbound island platform and a southbound island platform. I'd go up to the mezzanine and creep from the northbound stairs to the southbound stairs while the cashier was occupied so I wouldn't be asked to pay another fare.
hey mike... what's happening??
you weren't foaming at the mouth, were you??
i think that is against septa rules...
OH MY GOD, YOU'RE BACK! DON'T EVER LEAVE US AGAIN! WELCOME HOME!
Hey, I'd love to drop by your place the next time you're in town. Are you planning any Railfan outings?
"Hey, I'd love to drop by your place the next time you're in town. Are you planning any Railfan outings?"
mike... i'm not sure when i'm going to be in town... what the hell are you talking about??...
i was over at the 25th anniversary busfest on wednesday and really enjoyed seeing all the railfans go by the mack bus that i was sitting in... i was really having a good time sitting in the bus, until some blabbermouth subtalker spotted me, and gave out my location...
let me know when you're in city, and we can go watch the greyhound buses come out of the port authority, or even better go for a ride on the newark subway...
you still didn't answer my question... were you foaming at the mouth at septa?
Answer, not much. Also, I do really need to ride the Oldark Rural Aboveway before they get rid of the PCCs.
the Oldark Rural Aboveway ???.... you've been talking to the american pig too much...
you haven't been on the pcc's recently?? let's do it...
i'd tell you to invite pigs along, but he would probably
have a seizure riding anything old...
How did you know I've been hanging with the Pig? We went on a big NYC trip on June 7th. Went to Nathans etc. He seemed to have no real problem with the old then.
"Oldark Rural Aboveway" sounds like his shtick...
hey i got a great idea... why don't we try to break the current record for riding the entire newark city subway line??... i think it would take a couple of days of careful planning, but i'm sure we could do it in under 12 minutes??.. it's got to be done soon, since the venerable cars will be gone and the new equipment will never be fast enough to break the old record...
Yeah, he yelled at you. HAD to be because HE was a jerk. You couldn't POSSIBLY have done something wrong, could you?
Of course not.
-Hank
I was just sitting there. I think he was mad that I was joyriding, but I have never heard any SEPTA policy against it.
...what was I doing wrong? Jersey Mike
You couldn't POSSIBLY have done something wrong, could you? Hank
Non sequitor.
How so? Based on previously witnessed actions and attitudes, I think it's fair to say we haven't heard the whole story. Or did you miss the thread on 'warranty repairs'?
-Hank
There is a definite attitude among too many SEPTA employees to those who show interest in the system. I've encountered it many times. If I ask an operator on my line why he's so close to his leader or why block so-and-so didn't show, more often than not they take offense and then wonder if you work for the company. An operator even asked me once why I paid a fare since company employees ride for free - as if that were my cover or something.
Does SEPTA harbor an environment which encourages employees to think "Goddamn, my supervisor (or manager) is out to nail me on any little thing, and this guy (the Subfan) is tattling on me to my supervisor."
Am I totally farfetched?
Does SEPTA harbor an environment which encourages employees to think "Goddamn, my supervisor (or manager) is out to nail me on any little thing, and this guy (the Subfan) is tattling on me to my supervisor."
Am I totally farfetched?
Yes and no, respectively.
When the P&W track was being rebuilt about 15 years ago, I'd go out at lunch time and take pictures (thermite bombs, etc). A couple times they stopped working, thinking I was a management spy. I convinced the foreman (the only English speaker) that I was just a railfan, and work continued.
It's my understanding that SEPTA frowns on photography on their property because the employees fear it is management spying.
I agree 100%, unfortunately. Too many SEPTA employees are too concerned that they're going to get caught doing something wrong, especially when they're doing something wrong. There are many good people working for SEPTA, and then there are those who truly do not care.
Of course, my worst situation with this type of thing was once when I was taking pictures at the Walter Rand Transportation Center in Camden. A NJ Transit driver started to harangue me about what I was doing and how I couldn't do it (and this was on a public street - Broadway - not inside the Center), and even threatened to get police, and then threatened me. I crossed Broadway and took more pictures (a few of his bus, unbeknowst to him), and he left. What bothered me was his insinuation that someone couldn't possibly have this as a hobby and, even if one did, one would have to be absolutely crazy to do it in Camden (and he had a point there!).
"Of course, my worst situation with this type of thing was once when I was taking pictures at the Walter Rand Transportation Center in Camden. A NJ Transit driver started to harangue me about what I was doing and how I couldn't do it (and this was on a public street - Broadway - not inside the Center), and even threatened to get police, and then threatened me. I crossed Broadway and took more pictures (a few of his bus, unbeknowst to him), and he left. What bothered me was his insinuation that someone couldn't possibly have this as a hobby and, even if one did, one would have to be absolutely crazy to do it in Camden (and he had a point there!)."
Other than a few bums sitting out in the little park, the transit center is quite safe.
The driver was out of line. You made a good decision. If you were really mad you could have made an attempt to look at his ID or badge number and reported him to supervision for physically threatening behavior. Or, depending on how confrontational you want to be, you could have told him (politely) to go take a hike or you'd call the cops yourself and follow up with his supervisor.
I wouldn't go so far as to say the center is 'safe'. I had opportunity to pass through there a few months ago and saw a number of shady characters at 4 in the afternoon on a weekday. I later checked with a friend at PATCO who asked me if I was crazy to pass through there, as there was substantial gang activity and petty theft which was going on despite the police presence (there is a PATCO police office right in the terminal) there. While I won't necessarily avoid it, I'm going to exercise a little more care in the future.
As to the bus operator, I try to take into account the 'rebels' out there who see their jobs as being as nasty and disrespectful to their customers as possible as their missions and I generally try to ignore them. While I felt like a confrontation at the time, I thought better of it and walked. As I said, not only do I have photos of his beloved bus, I have at least one of him with his badge clearly showing the number which I passed to a friend at NJ Transit not long after the incident.
>>> my worst situation with thi