Did anyone notice that they took down the "frequency of service" signs/posters that were in the W4 station? Now there is a map of the "D" where the sign used to be at the front of the Brooklyn bound express platform.
Wasn't that sign from like 1992? I doubt that it would be of little or any help to anyone not knowing the system.
Mike
"Mr Mass Transit"
(Did anyone notice that they took down the "frequency of service" signs/posters that were in the W4 station?)
I've read a couple of news articles in which people cited the signs in complaining about the frequency of service in their neighborhood, vs. other neighborhoods. I like those signs -- they really show what the service is. It's like "truth in transit."
Greetings, all...
This past weekend two friends and I headed off to the Motor City for the 2nd annual Detroit Electronic Musical Festival. Here's a few random observations, in no particular order:
The music festival itself was incredible. For anybody who is interested in underground techno, house or other club music, this festival is a must-see event. Four stages in Hart Plaza, free admission, a very diverse crowd and very cool vibe throughout the weekend, lots of pot smoking, and some of the most cutting-edge music you'll ever hear.
Detroit the city is certainly an interesting study of urban sociology. Some neighborhoods literally look like war zones, with block after block of burned-out and/or half-collapsed buildings. The city put all its eggs in one basket with the automotive industry, and was left ruined when the basket broke. Right now the city seems to think its salvation will be in the form of touristy ballparks or huge casino hotels, but I think those are only superficial quick-fixes for some very deep-rooted problems.
Downtown Detroit has some very cool landmark-quality buildings worthy of New York or Chicago. Unfortunately, most of them seem to be abandoned and/or in a state of disrepair.
It's heartbreaking to see such a once-great city in utter ruin, but it's that same urban decay that has inspired most of the musicians and artists of the whole Detroit techno music scene. Detroit techno is quickly becoming to this generation what Motown music was to the previous generation in Detroit.
I vow never to complain about Chicago's potholes again after driving around in Detroit for a weekend.
Windsor, Ontario is a short bridge or tunnel ride away, and seems to be a very pleasant and walkable city. It really doesn't feel like a different country at all, but then, this is Canada we're talking about.
The Ambassador Bridge, a large suspension bridge connecting Detroit and Windsor, is interesting for two reasons: A) It is apparently still privately-owned, and B) Unlike the main span, the two side spans do not have suspender cables and are instead supported by conventional trusses below the road deck. This is this only suspension bridge I've ever heard of with that configuration.
Transit content I: South and west of downtown sits a magnificent ruin of an old train station, with a large abandoned hotel above. The property is fenced off, but one can tell that this was once an incredible train station. Anybody know its history?
Transit content II: Detoit has a real trolley line! I'm not sure where it starts or ends, but it went past the front door of our hotel. Single track operation, with at least two vintage open-air trolleys that I saw, catering to what seemed like a mainly tourist crowd. One trolley was even double-deck, with an open upper level. The track guage, based on my eyeball inspection, seemed much more narrow than standard.
Transit content III: Detroit's people-mover system proved to be more than just the expensive white elephant I was expecting. It circles the whole downtown area with a single track, one-way loop, with about a dozen or so stations. There seem to be two trains operating most of the time, which are automated. Stations seem very clean and well-maintained, and the trains sound a bit like the Jubilee Line trains in London, which leads me to suspect they may have AC traction. Fare is .50, paid with a token or exact change. But even with automation, the system is being watched. One guy tossed his trash onto the platform before boarding, and a voice came over the PA and announced the train wasn't moving an inch until he disposed of his trash properly. He sheepishly complied and we were on our way. The track is elevated on a very slender concrete box girder which gracefully winds its way around the streets.
Well, that's about it... I would have gotten some photos, but time and money were in short supply, and the weather was rather miserable all weekend. In fact, what was supposed to have been the grand finale at the main stage on Monday night was cancelled due to a sudden thunderstorm with frequent lightning and even some hail. Better luck next year, I guess. Weather and money problems aside, it was an excellent weekend.
-- David
Chicago, IL
!!!! $%%%^&^&**%&%**(!!!! @ WAIT A MINUTE !! All of that long and good post & no mention of ..............
THE DETROIT PEOPLE MOVER !!! how in the hell could you have missed that thing overhead !!???
it would have hit you in the face there !! & you still would have not mentioned it ??? COME ON MAN !!!
Wow, you ARE braindead.
Well,.... since you insist : ever heard of the old saying "" opinions are like assholes everybody has one ""
@ take heed to this & have a nice day !! ( oink )
...yea, and you should learn to read
Ok, your attic is completely empty. He only mentioned the People Mover on the bottom of his post.
HELLO......hello....hello
ECHO....echo....echo
ok i can take it from you & thank you again for the night i shot video of the M train at night with you as a motorman !!
I do need to clear out my attic @ overhaul an old reel-to-reel tape recorder i still own !! & some other audio equipment,
also if you want the night video i shot let me know i can send it to you ( thanks ) ....
...yea, and you should learn to read.
???.................!!!!!.........read what ?? yea ??
Unlike the main span, the two side spans do not have suspender cables and are instead supported by conventional trusses below the road deck. This is this only suspension bridge I've ever heard of with that configuration.
The Williamsburg Bridge is that way, although it has columns for the side spans.
Reguarding the ruins of Detroit, there is a gargantuan and awesome website devoted to photographs of its once beautiful buildings and civic infrastructure. It's called "The Fabulous Ruins of Detroit":
http://detroityes.com/home.htm
It's actually a very moving site.
Stuart
It's sad how a city could have once been so vital and then be destroyed by its own chief industry (the automobile).
What's this?!!?!? Careful, Pig, one might mistake this for "nostalgia!" :O)
In this "Fabulous Ruins of Detroit" site, there is indeed a section on the Michigan Central Railroad Station. David Cole asked about it in his original post.
BTW, I agree, for us history and necrology buffs, this is a fantastic site! Kevein Walsh should definitely check it out and kibhitz with the webmaster!
Downtown Detroit has some very cool landmark-quality buildings worthy of New York or Chicago. Unfortunately, most of them seem to be abandoned and/or in a state of disrepair.
It's said that all the abandoned buildings makes Detroit a popular destination for "urban explorer" types.
Transit content III: Detroit's people-mover system proved to be more than just the expensive white elephant I was expecting. It circles the whole downtown area with a single track, one-way loop, with about a dozen or so stations.
Does it seem to serve an actual transit purpose, or is it more of a tourist-type thing?
Does it seem to serve an actual transit purpose, or is it more of a tourist-type thing?
The weekend we were there, it seemed to be getting rather heavy usage as a way for people to get from their hotels to Hart Plaza and also to the casinos. However, most of this traffic seemed to be related to the festival. I have no idea how busy it is during a regular weekday.
-- David
Chicago, IL
> Right now the city seems to think its
> salvation will be in the form of touristy
> ballparks or huge casino hotels
I have two words for them: Atlantic & City.
-Dave
The trolley line is 900mm gauge. Some (all?) of their cars are formerly Lisbon.
An excellent report.
I am somewhat amazed that you found both the Detroit Peoplemover and the Detroit Citizen's Railway both in operation. The peoplemover was OOS last year due to part of the trackway being destroyed in the demolition of a building abutting the line. The DCR was shut down late in 1996 or 97 in a fiscal crisis and the last reports in the railfan press reported everything still shut down and equipment in dead storage as late as last year.
Detroit is so run down and in a constant fiscal crisis that it was used for the setting of the Robocop movies and TV series.
Story in Jersey Journal.
What the hell is a package store?
Package goods are those that are bought for consumption off the premises:that is, cans and bottles.
Usually the cans and bottles have alcoholic beverages in them.
Package store means.....Booze to go...How DO you spell Seacaucus?
Peace,
ANDEE
...How DO you spell Seacaucus?
I spell it Secaucus, but I experienced a couple typoz this morning.
…perhaps because you found the package store last night?
That'll do it! :)
It's a euphemism for a liquor store.
"Package store" (also known as a "packie") is a common New England expression for a small liquor store, where the beer/liquor is put in a brown paper sack for carrying out. I rarely heard the term used west of Connecticut or south of upstate NY.
"Package store" is common in South Jersey.
Transplanted New Englanders?
Sign seen today in Baltimore (Thames St at S. Broadway, Fells Point):
"The Admiral's Cup
Bar & Grill
We welcome the Water
Taxi riders
COME ON IN PACKAGE GOODS AVAILABLE"
There's one on route 46 westbound near Litle Falls, NJ. Tends to attract motorcycles. I was always mystified what "package goods" was, but from the seedy look of the store it obviously wasn't Twinkies.
do any have picture os septa lrv.
There are plenty of pictures of SEPTA LRVS RIGHT HERE on this site, you should look around.
Peace,
ANDEE
i was talking about other pictures.
btw:do any have spec.s on them
Find other pictures here.
Thanks for the plug, Bob...
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I have put up a modest K Car shrine
Here
yes nice web site i been they 2 weeks ago.
Try this site for all the facts & figures you could want Light Rail Central
Mr t__:^)
lightrail.com doesn't even have it though they do have some nice pictures. here are the numbers:
SEPTA Kawasaki LRV specificationsLRV S/ELRV D/E
Vehicle type:Single End MU LRVDouble End MU
LRV
Operates:Subway-Surface LinesMedia-Sharon
Hill Lines
Number of Vehicles:11229
Fleet Numbers:9000-9111100-128
Length:50'53'
Width:102"105"
Height (top of roof):10'10"10' 10"
Weight:57,882 lbs.60,043 lbs.
Seated Capacity:5150
Collection:Trolley Pole
(with provision
for pantograph)Pantograph
Axles/Motors/HP:4/4/1004/4/100
Acceleration:3 mph/s3 mph/s
Braking:
(normal service)3 mph/s3 mph/s
Maunufactured by Kawasaki Heavy Industries, Japan, 1981
Final Assembly by Boeing-Vertol Company, Ridley Township Delaware County, PA
! compared this spec to the mfl cars spec they both have the
same pick up!
>>! compared this spec to the mfl cars spec they both have the same pick up!<<
Which cars? The M-4's or The Almond Joys? The K-Cars have Westinghouse 1460 motors which is really an updated version of the 1454A, both are 100hp, 600VDC, (the only differences are the bearings and the 1460 is set up for chopper controls).
Almond Joys, I'm pretty sure the M-4's have Adtranz propulsion
the m-4s.new model.
Regarding the Manhattan Bridge service flip - I haven't seen much news about this lately. Even the articles about the Grand St. controversy don't specifically mention when this is supposed to take place. When is the tentative date that this change is scheduled to happen?
Jim D.
It's tentative for the 3rd week in July, at this time.
Peace,
ANDEE
When I passed through the Canal Street Bridge Station last week, it looked very nice. It even smelled nicer :-) I'd be interested to hear what our resident tile experts (Wayne?) think about the renovation.
I was there a couple of weeks ago and was very impressed by the tiling, not just on the bridge line BMT station, but also on the tunnel line.
Do we have a resident Chinese expert who can tell us what the Characters on the tiles mean?
John.
The Chinese characters on tiles are pronounced "Hua Pu". Hua is the abbreviation of China, and Pu means town.
Chaohwa
Can you spell that out phonetically? I'd really appreciate it.
Hua sounds like WHAH; Pu sounds like POO. So you can pronounce Chinatown in Chinese as WHAH-POO.
Chaohwa
Oops, when I tried to type Pu in Chinese, I found that I made an error.
Here is the correction:
The Chinese characters on the tiles is Hua Bu, pronounced as WHAH-BOO. Hua is the abbreviation of China, and Bu means town.
As a Chinese like me, we call Chinatown in Chinese in three Chinese characters, which is pronounced as CHUNG-GUO-CHENG. Chungguo also means China. Cheng means city or town.
Chaohwa
Isn't the actually pronunciation a cross between a "b" and a "p"? Isn't the "k"/"g" a cross sound, also? I've seen attempts at English translations spelled with both "p" and "b" (Peking/Bejing) and "k" and "g" (Sun Sai Gai/Kai) as examples.
You are absolutely right. When I try to translate from Chinese to English, I have the same dilemma to decide which I should choose, "b" or "p".
Let's take an example of Taipei, my birthplace. In Chinese, we pronounce Taipei as TAI-BEI. Indeed there is a lot of translation confusion between English and Chinese. Even in Taiwan, there are at least three Chinese-to-English translation methods.
If I choose Roman-style Chinese-to-English translation, which is the official in China, my name becomes Zhaohua Chen. But I like my current English translation, so I stay put.
Chaohwa
Is that Cantonese or Mandarin?
I hope so! After being "all underground all the time" on the E starting with the WillyB closure on April 30, 1999, I am ready for a bit of fresh air on the M line!
As of this morning at 10:30 AM and by a vote of the full MTA Board yesterday - the Manhattan Bridge flip service begins on July 22, 2001. The 63rd St. connection opens and V service begins on November 10, 2001.
BTW: If anyone is interested in it, I have a scan of the draft car assignment matrix effective on 7/22/01. E-mail only (as usual)
Hi, please email Summer car assignments to a.m.voci@verizon.net
Thanks.
send it to me too at pingu45@aol.com
thanks
Listen guys, I asked that if you want the matrix - E-mail me. I do not intend to copy 10 or 20 or 30 E-mail addresses from subtalk into my E-mail program. It's very simple:
I F Y O U W A N T I T - E - M A I L M E ! ! !
Why July 22 I thought the Bridge Flip will be July 1 isnt that the corrent day to start Why are they delaying it to July 22?
A Washington Post article praised Metro maintenance forces for improving service.
It shows what a little dedication and smarts can do - empowered by enlightened management. MTA has people like that, too. How well are they empowered?
I just got the call from Electronic Boutique to pick up my copy of MS Train Simulator. There website states that it would be released on June 5th. What a surprise. Go get your copy.
Me too!
-Hank
I have to say, so far, it's boring. And get ready to use every last part of your brain and keyboard. EVERY key has a function. One problem I did run into is some graphics problems, for which I intend to notify MS. The program installs its own video driver as well.
Oh, if your train won't move, even if you've released the brakes and set the throttle and reverser, try the 'Z' key to acknowledge the signal.
-Hank
What are the system requirements to run it?
PII 266 MHz with 4MB 3D Video Card, MS Windows 95 and later (NO NT), 32 MB of RAM for Win 95-ME, 64 MB of RAM for Win 2000, 500 MB of available hard disk space FOR MINIMAL INSTALL, 1.8 GB FOR FULL INSTALL, DirectX 7.0. The better the system, the better the performance. I have and AMD Athlon @ 700 MHz, 196 RAM, 27 GB HD, and a Vodoo 3 Graphics card. The game works like a charm. All I can say is BUY IT NOW. Your wives won't see you for a good while.
What a *PIG* ... sure hope it's just like the real thing for such resource consumption. (Sorry for the insult, Mr American Pig, there are other porcine objects out there such as Redmond) ... heh.
What would put me over the top to make me *try* to pursuade my wiglets that this is somehow a business expense as a lab thingy would be how curved track is presented ... is it a lame bunch of straight tangents like BVE or is it an actual attempt at rounded curves like Mechanik? Inquiring mimes knead to no ...
Microsoft haters, RESISTANCE IS FUTILE, YOU WILL BE ASSIMILATED. those two young Polish GENIUSES Will receive $$$MONEY$$$ from GATE$ to bulk up MS Eastern Europe. Redmund will replace the Hague as the center of international affairs.
Me Wife preordered it from Amazaon (who is still saying 12th delivery on the 5th release) as well as the hint book (was supposed to be published in late may, still not published) for my birthday which is past.
I told her to wait and we would get it from EB but... I don't want to cancel the order in case they ship before updating the web site.
PII 266 MHz with 4MB 3D Video Card, MS Windows 95 and later (NO NT), 32 MB of RAM for Win 95-ME, 64 MB of RAM for Win 2000...
You see, this is misleading as 2000 is not Windows 95 or later, it's a form of NT.
And it's a lot better than 95, 98 or ME.
Understandable, but it simply won't operate under windows NT, but it will run with windows 2000. It will just need more memory. I don't know why.
That's not what I was talking about.
Windows 2000 is Windows NT 5.0, it is not in the Windows 4.x/9x series. By saying that NT will not work is misleading as Windows 2000 is NT. I was really pissed off when you said no NT, because I assumed it to mean 2000 (and for that matter, Windows xp, even the Home Edition is NT 6.0) until I read further.
You should have specified NT 4.0 (I wouldn't think it would work with NT 3.1, 3.5 or 3.51).
THe *()&(* box says 'DOES NOT RUN ON WINDOWS NT'. MS Does not consider Win2k as any way, shape, or form of NT, nor will they consider XP to be NT. What they've done for both is combine the NT kernel with actual useability. There's very little left of what was NT in 2k, and even less of both 9x and NT in XP. And word for the future, if it runs on 2k, it'll likely run just fine on XP.
-Hank
Exactly Hank, Bills ultimate plan has always been to combine the two operating systems (NT/Windoz) and only offer one in the future (should I say 3 since some still want their dos box).
Great to have a monopoly!
Great to have a monopoly!
It's a BAD thing that the horrible DOS kernel and the Windows 9x line is being abandoned in favor of the much more reliable NT-based system?
What are you drinking?
...much more reliable NT-based system...
If that lousy, rotten NT-based system is more reliable, I'd hate to think how bad the others are. Quick! Another Mac, please - with OS X!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I went through some of the tutorials, and finally went through the 'Bridge Damage' scenario on the NEC, driving an Acela. Once you finish a scenario, you get a report (in RTF format), for which you get the details. Both can be saved for comparison purposes. Here's mine (HTML mine):
ACTIVITY: Bridge Damage
You completed this Activity after 26 minutes and 28 seconds of driving.
I had 30 minutes to complete the task. The game runs in real-time.
MINOR OPERATIONAL ERRORS:
You committed 4 minor operational errors:
17:40:47 - at mile post 21.21 you incurred a penalty brake application.
17:40:47 - at mile post 21.21 emergency brake applied.
17:40:47 - at mile post 21.21 you incurred a penalty power cutout
17:41:06 - at mile post 20.88 emergency brake applied.
TIMETABLE ADHERENCE:
You did not fail to stop at any stations.
You were not late arriving at any stations.
Overall you were 00:02:06 early.
Station Milepost Arrival +/- Departure +/-
Wilmington26.91 17:30:01+00:00:0017:30:33-0:00:12Left 12 seconds late
Philadelphia6.5017:56:03-00:02:06--:--:----:--:--
Totals -00:02:06+00:00:12
SPEED LIMIT ADHERENCE:
You exceeded the speed limit 4 times, for a total duration of 1 minute and 14 seconds.
17:35:14 - at mile post 23.78 you exceeded the speed limit of 15mph for 1 minute and 5 seconds at a maximum speed of 54mph
17:40:46 - at mile post 21.25 you exceeded the speed limit of 80mph for 2 seconds at a maximum speed of 83mph
17:46:23 - at mile post 12.19 you exceeded the speed limit of 110mph for 0 seconds at a maximum speed of 110mph
17:47:00 - at mile post 10.50 you exceeded the speed limit of 110mph for 6 seconds at a maximum speed of 111mph
IN-TRAIN FORCES:
You exceeded passenger comfort levels 4 times. Forces within the train jostled the passengers beyond acceptable limits.
17:40:12 - at mile post 21.84. Hard brake application for exceeding speed.
17:40:48 - at mile post 21.21. Hard brake application for exceeding speed.
17:41:43 - at mile post 20.87. Hard brake application for exceeding speed.
17:48:10 - at mile post 7.40. Hard brake application for reducing to 30Mph entering terminal area.
Very interesting.
I'd assume that 54mph in a 15mph zone must earn you a bit of down time in the 3-dimensional world!
Problem is the graphics quality. Increase it, game performance suffers. The trick is to use the track guide so that you can see things coming.
-Hank
What are the specs of your computer. I have all my graphic options maxed out and the game still runs flawless (Even when I hit 167 mph on the Tokyo-Hakone line).
I've got a PIII-500 with 128MB RAM, and a 32MB ATI All-in-Wonder video card, a 60GB HDD, and a 2x DVD-ROM (equal to about a 20x CD-ROM). There are some known conflicts with certain ATI chipsets.
-Hank
I've got a PIII-500 with 128MB RAM, and a 32MB ATI All-in-Wonder video card, a 60GB HDD, and a 2x DVD-ROM (equal to about a 20x CD-ROM). There are some known conflicts with certain ATI chipsets.
-Hank
I too got the notice, as soon as i play it a bit im going to review it on subfart.
"subfart."
uhm? -Nick
yea me and Marty made up this term for subtalk, since usually our *mine* opinion isn't the most popular here
oh ok! :-) -Nick
There was a public meeting at Temple Sholom in NE Philadelphia to get feedback from neighborhood residents on the proposed subway extension along the Roosevelt Boulevard corridor. I am travelling and was unable to attend. Does anyone know what transpired at the meeting, and what sort of opinions were expressed by citizens?
Mark
I heard that NJ Transit was building a new train station for the Woodbury Common shopper on the Fox5 news last night. Supposely it will open by the end of the year. I wish that the LIRR would do that for the Tanger Outlet in Riverhead.
You mean built by MNRR..NJT only RUNS the service for the MTA...And before you hold your breath, it stil has to be approved by NorfolkSouthern,NJT, and host of other folks,not the least of which is the Woodbury Common management.....
"...not the least of which is the Woodbury Common management."
I can't see why they would object to more customers in their stores -- so long as they don't have to pay for the construction.
Where is Woodbury Commons ?
Some station along the Port Jervis line has a shopping mall within walking distance. Which station is that, and is it predestrian-accessible from the station ?
The Middletown station is now on the property of the Middletown Galleria...Walking distance? Welllll..theres no sidewalk unfortunately..but it is close,as is a Sam's/WalMart....
I seem to remember a JC Penney visible from the train, I don't know if it was that mall.
A new line is being built to bring commuters from the Poconos of Pennsylvania to NYC ( either by way of Hoboken or Penn Station). Could this be the line that I was refferring to, or is this something altogether different? Port Jervis is located on the old Erie Mainline, and still has an old Turntble for turning locomotives around. Did the freight operation go to CSX or to Norfolk Southern?
Note: the Tanger outlet mall is served by Suffolk County Transit, and the website to look at is http://www.sct-bus.org. All schedules can be shown if you have Adobe Acrobat 4.0. If you need that , go to Adobe.com and download a free copy of the software.
Yes the tanger outlet is served by two buses ran by SCT. You can catch it from the riverhead station on the LIRR. One line stops in the mall the other passes by and I think for the latter its a flag stop.
A new line is NOT being built to bring commuters from the Poconos of Pennsylvania to NYC. NJ has recently condemned and agreed on a sales price with Turco for the NJ portion (no track on it) and the bridge over the Delaware. All the Pennsylvamnia trackage is secured. That is all that has happened. Earliest projections for service to HOBOKEN is 2005, but I won't hold my breath.
NS owns the track west of Suffern on the former Erie, sort of a throw back to 1970 when N&W's subsidiary Dereco owned D&H and EL.
Thanks. Now what seems to be the reason for the delay, money? If so, dose that make it a holdup or a stickup?
Here's a link to a story about the whole thing......
I don't think the LIRR mainline comes all that close to the Tnager Outlets.
:) Andrew
I think it is only 2 or 3 miles. Tanger already has a bus(trolley) they could run it to the station for the 4 times the train stops in Riverhead.
Well, yeah they could do that. Maybe they already do. But I think what streetcar_man was after was a new station on or arround the Tanger Outlet grounds. I don't think the line comes that close.
:-) Andrew
Yeah I wish I could go to Tanger but that would be next to impossible without a car. Tanger should provide a bus to the train station. Or SCT should. Since Tangers gears to NYC residents, it should only make sense for them to TAKE THE TRAIN there.
SEE my post on ZDENO.ORG regarding this subject....
Peace,
ANDEE
Yeah! LIRR goes right by Tanger, it's absolutely ridiculous there's no station being put there. Then again, this is Long Island you know.
The LIRR is still pounding their chests that they abandoned Holtsville (they should run an hourly shuttle to Yaphank to alleviate parking at Ronkonkoma.) and Southampton College. Calverton disappeared in 1980. How dare customers at intermediate stops impede the progess of their trains to Greenport and Montauk !
I was just looking at the R-143 photo page at the delivery photos (thanks, Trevor), and noticed something interesting - the unit shown being delivered is #8101, an odd-numbered car, but is is quite clearly an A-unit (i.e. a unit with a cab and controls). This differs from other B division linked sets of more than two cars, like the R-44, R-46, R-68, and R-68A, where the A-units (or "deemed" A-units in the case of the 68s) are the even-numbered cars. I thought at first that this may be because these cars are 60 footers, so they would be linked in units of five, but then I remembered that these cars are slated to be used on the Eastern Division, where they would have to be in units of four. Does anybody have any ideas about why the TA decided to go from even-odd-odd-even to odd-even-even-odd in the consists?
Thanks,
subfan
On my trip to Washinton D.C. I seen only NABI artics but NO M*A*N artics What happenend to them?
They are around but wrong board...
Sorry I forgot that this was subtalk!
This is sort of OT. It's my Flash Animation "Hello World."
It's a 55K SWF file. What you should see, if you have the flash plugin, is a 2 second animation of a half-tone fading in over a map. I'd really appreciate it if anyone could tell me if that's what you get. It should be pretty smooth, and the final picture should look nice. Even (maybe especially) if you don't have the plugin, maybe you could look at it, and tell me if you get an error message, or an offer to get the plugin from Macromedia, or what.
If you're so inclined, this is the link.
Thanks!
Works as you would expect in Netscape 4.77 on Linux ...
It worked well for me. Looked good.
works best with internet explorer version5.50
Worked very well for me. I'm running Netscape 4.77 on Win98SE over a 56K dialup connection. It loaded with no delay.
Good work!!
it does not work with Konqueror 2.1.1 (Using KDE 2.1.2) on Linux. You go into Shockwave looking for a plugin. The only plugins for Linux are for Netscape.
Works fine for me in IE 5.0.
Now, could you let us have a different version that changes a lot slower, so we can see what the underlying map is all about?
Thanks,
John.
Sorry. Here's the link to the map only.
This was one of the TA's bright ideas on the road to not builing the Second Avenue Subway. It would have involved a deep tunnel under Central Park, increasing Bronx capacity but bypassing Second Avenue entirely.
I remember the proposal was made around 1962. The Queens branch would have been around 80 St and would have lined up with Broadway, Queens. It would have connected with the IND local tracks just east of Steinway St. Interestingly, a similar service is now being provided by the 63 St connector, except it also connects with the IND express tracks. BTW the superimposed images look fine in IE 5.0.
I tried it at work this afternoon, and it worked perfectly, Windows 98, Internet Explorer 4 something. At home, Windows 95, probably an earlier version of IE, just a blank white screen. What is the location of the photograph? The map is intriguing; I can't imagine the NIMBY uproar if all that tunneling under Central Park came under public scrutiny. Actually, the 2nd Avenue route makes more sense.
Here's the map only.
The deep tunnel was to overcome the objections of New York's number one NIMPOYT (Not In My Park Or You're Toast), Robert Moses, by not disturbing the park surface. Moses was earlier supposed to have been influential in forcing he 8th Avenue Subway to be doubled-decked next to Central Park, even he wasn;t City Parks Commissioner until 1933.
It would have been a relatively cheap way to bring additional BMT-IND capacity to the Bronx, but it would have been (without substantial later work) pretty useless. It would have provided no added cpacity south of 110th Street, and provided additional Bronx capacity to the Concourse Line, which didn't need it.
It's pretty clear that a line under any of the avenues would be more useful than one under Central Park, unless the explicit idea was to provide express service only.
The double-decked stations under CPW make sense. A typical four-track single-level line would place the northbound entrances on the park side of the street. A double-decked line with both local tracks upstairs and both express tracks downstairs would have eliminated the park-side entrances but would replace them with a mezzanine, unless the island platform could somehow be placed directly beneath the west-side sidewalk (which would place the southbound track below the buildings). The current arrangement means that most commuters (well, the few commuters who actually put up with the line) go down two flights in the morning and up one flight in the afternoon.
I forgot to mention the location of the photo. It's at 129th Street and 3rd Avenue. I published it as part of this article.
And just so you know that it is really cross-platform compatible, it worked fine on my Mac running OS 8.1 with Communicator 4.7.
Looked fine to me
Simon
Swindon UK
Paul, it works fine on my G3 Mac, OS 8.5, Navigator 4.7.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
It works here, but I do hope you won't chase out anyone who doesn't have the plugin and has no interest in installing it (or is using a platform that Macromedia doesn't support).
I viewed it easily with IE5. Nicely done!
Works as you suspected in Netscape 4.73
Mr t__:^)
Budd cars M-402 through M-407 were delivered to PRSL in fall of 1950 and the Cape May Seashore Lines celebrated the 50th anniversary last October. The event was very well received and public pressure prevailed upon management to follow up with the 50th anniversary celebration of the delivery of the second half-dozen cars, M-408 through M-413, which were delivered in May and June of 1951.
Fiftieth anniversary part 2 will be held on Saturday June 9 beginning at 10 AM at Cape May Court House' 4-H Fairgrounds station, with the first train of the day (M-407 and M-410) to Cape May. The actual festivities will begin at the Cape May City station at 11 AM. Speakers will include retired PRSL engine crew members. The Budd Company official photographer of 50 years ago also expects to speak and bring a collection of his photographs (health permitting: he's 83 and in excellent health, having missed the October celebration because he was travelling in Europe). T-shirts and mementos will be available at the Cape May station, as well as an anniversary cake (enough for all guests is planned).
Cape May is at the southern end of New Jersey.
I saw a TGC1 "track inspection car" going S/B on the downtown 8th avenue local at 34th street around 11:25AM. We passed it again going downtown on the A, which was a hot car (R44) but at least we flew down the express. The TGC1 was going slow, I guess it was "inspecting".
Also rode an R142A going uptown on the 6 from Brooklyn Bridge to 51st.
Everything functioned flawlessly, the announcements worked fine.
Also those things are FAST. Between BB and Canal was real fast, the only opportunity to see near the train's full potential. When it accelerates you really have to hold on, the pull is very strong. The braking also seemed very good (contrary to what others have said). The T/O must've been pretty confident with the brakes as we went into stations full speed then stopped right on the marker.
I kinda like the R142A's. Sure they don't have "railfan window" but the view through the cab is OK, plus they are fast and come to smooth steady stop.
I still haven't rode one of the (Bombardier) R142's. How many are running on the 2?
Of course the ride to Queens on the 7 express was pretty exhilerating. This time I got to enjoy it as no one stole the window from me, and the senior T/O really wrapped it between Woodside and Junction.
The Bombardier R-142 is running flawlessly also. very quick on the 7 av run between 96th st. and chambers st. very comfortable and no traction motor noise. while riding the 7, did you see the row of burnt out restaurants?
I was looking for it because of what I heard on the news about the terrible fire last night near the 7 line. That sounded terrible. Add yet another eye sore to the many rather delapidated buildings along the 7 line. Seriously, the graffiti on the buildings along the 7 line (esp between Woodside and Shea Stadium)is some of the worst I've seen, it even looks worse than most areas along the J. What is going on with Queens? The open cut near Flushing on the LIRR is pretty disgusting too, graffitti and garbage all over the place.
Where exactly are the destroyed buildings since I couldn't find them.
I think it happened near Sunnyside. Did it disrupt 7 line service?
its been there for years. up to now, land lords have not cleaned it up. some have cleaned it up but the little bad ass teens strike again. and some aren't gangs.
A llot of 'em are teens from pretty well-off families and no supervision or values.
I say again here - MTA should have the right, for repeat offenders and egregious violators, to attach college aid money, wages and even parental income to pay for some of the damage. Want to attend City U. and have made a career out of destroying subway car windows, wrecking buildings etc.? Work out the payment plan first, else forget about going to class...
I know some of you think that's too draconian. Maybe. I would not propose it for first or even second offenders.
graffitti is mostly on roof tops. garbage thats new. i haven't seen any garbage in sunnyside/woodside.
According to news reports, 7 service was slowed up due to smoke but otherwise unaffected. The fire happened on the northside of QB right along side the Bliss Street Station. It involved a Korean Restaurant. The property has always alternated between a restaurant and a catering hall since the 60's.
Traffic on Queens Blvd was rerouted. One report had traffic turning north on 58th Street to Roosevelt Ave and then west on Roosevelt to Skillman Ave.
No mention if Bliss Street was closed during the fire (I would hope so), or what the exact reroutes for the Q32, Q60 and Q104 were.
This was not a part of 7 line that is/was affected by the grafitti problem.
Since I am one of the people on the board that live the closest to the affected area (I'm about 10 minutes away walking), I think I should tell you what was going on.
There was a fire (duh!). It consumed the korean restaurant, a fruit stand (baked fruit, anyone?), and a pub on 46th Street. Traffic was closed on Queens Blvd for a while. Once it opened, it was only one lane. A bulldozer arrived around 3:00 in the afternoon. As I watched it start to bring the place down, some guy yelled "SAVE THE BOOZE!"
I actually saw smoke from this fire as I rode my J train over the Williamsburgh bridge, it was that big.
TGC1 - Track Geometry Car 1
there are 5 R-142 (bombardier) running on the 2 line. #6 is coming on monday. R-142 coming to the 5 line by september.
You're off by a set.
6301-10
6311-20
6326-35
6321-25,6346-50
6411-20
6421-30
6 Train Sets in All.
Any questions?
-Stef
Thursday nite while working the 5, I saw 6466-70 over at E.180St yard and 6471-75 at Unionport.
i guess i haven't been keeping up this week. so # 7 is coming on monday.
Aye! I wonder what they could be putting in this time? 6336-45 has not returned to revenue service as of yet.....
Then again, neither has 7211-20.
-Stef
The 142/142a's may seem fast but after talking to the T/O's and dispatchers they are hardly ever on time.
This morning, when I woke, I heard on the radio the red line was delayed due to some sort of fire near Tenleytown and they were single tracking. Just wonderful. I went downstairs, and got the usual dose of WMATA contradicting itself.
Went on their website, no news. Went to wtopnews.com, no luck their either. Called Metro, spoke to a real live human and she said 12-15 minute delays and there was a bus bridge.
So, grabbing breakfast on the run, I set out to the Metro stop. Sure enough, when I got there, no buses, no crowds, looks like Friendship Heights at 7:15 AM on a weekday morning. Head down the escalator and I see someone coming up. Ask if everything is normal and sure enough, it is.
Many inbound trains were heading to Silver Spring, including many that originated at Shady Grove. I saw them entering Grosvenor full of passengers. Seemed the same number of trains were turning back at Grosvenor, too. I wonder...
Metro opens early tomorrow for the Race for the Cure. The RFTC pays the operating costs until 8 AM and Metro pays them any revenue they make.
The gov. boarded the A in Harlem 3PM today. Rode the second car. Was going to the battery. Made small talk with passengers. Syracuse newspaper
Link Francis Ford Coppola to the 2nd avenue subway in under 9 steps.
Is one of the links "Apocalypse Now?"
Speculation: Wagner's Ride of the Valkyries ---> distant relative of NY Mayor Wagner ---> original Second Av proposal related to tearing down an El?
No, can't be.
Link Francis Ford Coppola to the 2nd avenue subway in under 9 steps.
Hmmm ... a Ford is a brand of automobile ... an automobile is a form of transportation ... and a subway is also a form of transportation. And yes, I am certain that is not what you had in mind.
Francis Ford has a Coppola and so do the R44's that were originally intended for the second avenue subway ... now where's my got damn prize? :)
1) Francis Ford Coppola is the uncle of Talia Shire.
2) Talia Shire played Adreine Balboa in the Rocky Movies.
3) Rocky was played by Sylvester Stallone.
4) Sylvester Stallone played Deek DeSilva in Nighthawks.
5) DeSilva & Sgt Fox chased the terrorist, Wolfgar, into the 63rd St tunnel right at the connection to the 2nd Avenue subway (While it was under construction).
Another easy one
Wow ... we've REALLY gotta get you out on a fantrip, bro. :)
Got dat right!
Heh. I'm ready to chat about the excitement factor of the 205th street relay and what the layup order is to the Wye at the west end of the station. Yike. ANYTHING but which is the slowest, which is the crappiest and what I'd do if I was the subway czar to throw the schedule all to hell ... and I've been OUT of the system for 30 years. I'd be more likely to CARE. :)
Sorry for the observation, but some of us have lost our way. Suggests that we've talked everything to death and I'd hate to have to settle for sifting through the archives. Isn't there anything old that's new again? (don't mind me - I fight computer nasties for a living and I love coming here to think about things OTHER THAN worms, viruses, trojans and the like - but some of the subject matter lately has been as boring as a bowling ball) Sometimes ya just gotta watch the closing doors. Bing bong ...
What I've noticed since I began posting here is that the board runs in streaks.
Some weeks, the board is hot and leads to very knowledgeable Q&A. Other weeks, it's like watching paint dry.
Lately, you have to watch where you lean. Some guys still post good stuff (i.e. TD, Jeff, David), but there's been a bit of dead weight hanging around lately.
What was the first elevated line in Brooklyn? Why?
I thought that the original Lexington Ave Line was Brooklyn's first elevated line.
Since you said "Trick" I suppose there is more to it than that.
I guess the "Trick" is on me.
I had gotten the impression that it had become common to say that the Coney Island Elevated (1881) was the First Brooklyn Elevated, rather the Lex (1885).
Those who argue against the Coney Island elevated have said either that it wasn't really an elevated in the true sense, more like a trestle with bridges, or else that it was an elevated, all right, but never part of the elevated system since it was never hooked up for through service, being a two-station shuttle.
What I hadn't seen said, which was the "Trick," which was that even if the Coney Island Elevated is accepted as an elevated, it wasn't in Brooklyn, and wouldn't be in Brooklyn until Gravesend Town was annexed in 1894, nine years after the Lex opened.
When I mention the Coney Island el, I say "first in Kings County," or "first in what became Brooklyn."
So for all that, the correct answer is the Lexington Avenue el. The joke's on me.
I'll bite ... the Brooklyn Bridge cable cars?
Where was that bicycle-powered elevated, Coney Island?
I spotted it again today passing 42nd Street. A R-142 set was making simulated stops on the 5 line. Unfortunately, I did not ger the car numbers.
new set is supposed to come soon. some of those sets that you see doing sim runs on the 5 go to the 2 line. however they ones on the 2 lines are being programed to run on the 5 line when they have to without the map working.
When the 5 runs express, what is being done to prevent passengers from boarding from the "wrong" platform at E. 180th? If only the fence between the southbound track and northbound (island) platform at Bowling Green were removed, passengers could take a private ride from E. 180th to BG.
If any of the upcoming new B Division cars make simulated stops on the A, it will be possible to have a private ride from 59th to Hoyt-Schermerhorn.
Where else will this be possible? Obviously on the 6, 7, and D express. The D express from the Bronx to 59th also works. The D and A could be combined to get from Kingsbridge to H-S. Anything longer than that?
The Selkirk chapter of pEta (People Energizing the Trains Again) are pleased to announce our first annual Father's Day NYC Transit Vandalism outing and subtalkers are invited to join. If you wish to participate, you will need to bring supplies to make our first outing our biggest and best EVER ...
What you will need:
1 Philips screwdriver
1 crew key (BRT keys are OK too)
1 spanner wrench
1 golden slipper (to insulate current collectors while work is being done)
50 feet of Belden 0000 gauge insulated wire, rated 1200 V
50 feet of Belden 0000 gauge equivalent tinned copper braid
2 1600 amp, 1.2kV rated link fuse
2 Amphenol MAV connectors
pair rubber gloves (12kV breakdown)
2 Mazda #2567 36 volt lamps
How we're going to celebrate Father's day
We will meet at 0330 on Father's day (June 17, 2001) at the northeast entrance of the Concourse yards. Teams will be assigned to select individual R68 cars and will make necessary modifications to restore field shunting, involving wiring in the shunt taps and connecting them to existing but removed wiring to the local/express sockets on the bulkhead of each car. Optionally, if time permits, we will replace the original roll curtains on each car.
At the end of the scheduled activities, one R68 consist will have field shunting restored to all cars. If time permits, a second train will be similarly vandalized. Following the completion of our releasing of R68's from existing inhumane conditions, two teams will pilot the R68's through the system, bashing wheel detectors with a brickbat, disabling them throughout the night until we conclude the fan trip at the Stillwell yard leads on the West End line at sunrise.
Following the fan trip, weenies will be roasted at MTA headquarters and will be subjected to folk songs until such time as they relent and remove the Central Park West timers, including the downgrade timers between 103 St and 125th Street on the 8th Avenue IND tracks. If customers from other parts of the system appear for this event, we will similarly demand removal of all offensive signals from their own local lines as well. Wearing of medallions is optional. Trains will be tagged with Corona stickers to permit easy identification.
NOTE: No Sea Beach cars will be harmed in this unauthorized GOH. Please also note that this is satire. I may be nuts, but I ain't crazy.
Im way ahead of you, If I only knew how this lectrical wiring Mumbo Jumbo worked. Fill me in my man.
This is only a test. Had it been an actual alert, you would have been instructed to tune to the nearest TA frequency for further instructions. This is ONLY a test.
Actually, many many years ago, I listened to Abbie Hoffman go to a phone booth in lower Manhattan near Water street, drop dime on his friends (whose phones he knew were "warm") and told each to meet him at the Staten Island ferry terminal in a half hour - they were going to hijack the Staten Island ferry and take it to CUBA ... now as anyone who rides the boat regularly knows, there isn't enough fuel to get it OUT of the harbor ... a point lost on the law enforcement types of the time.
Needless to say, SWAT was there in full regalia ... he told the story several times again on WBAI.
HaHa, i like that one, What a boring time we live in now, thats why i pass myself as 76 years olde.
Yeah, some folks have forgotten how to have fun. A chuckle costs nothing either.
Thats why people like you, and I like to think me too live long
So ya up for a rewire job? I teach ya how to solder. :)
Of course the chances of me having time to get to the city are about the same as the odds of hitting a BILLION dollars playing Looto at the moment ...
Im ready to learn, Just say when. Wouldnt this R-68 re-wire job piss our pal Train Dude a bit off?
Heh. "Sometimes you feel like a nut, sometimes you don't." I have no idea of what they ripped out, but if I had my druthers, they'd be back in and the cab of a train would keep you AWAKE just like it used to. Comfy seats, joysticks, and just move the brake handle to here and she'll stop all by herself and you won't have pissed off geese? Nope. That ain't the way subways were ...
Hey, don't forget to bring your spray-can....;-)
BMTman
So we're ON for it? KEWL! Don't forget to bring that pitchfork you were swinging in that pic ya sent me dancing that Gandy walk along with Larry and Curly doing the reaction shot while YOU did all the work with that rail axe ... man, gotta choose better friends. Heh.
So has that land yacht of yours cleared the Malbone interlock yet?
oh yea Like I'll forget, knowing me? pshhhhhhhhhhhhhh
Regardless of what you may think, we are NOT vandalizing Renwick, or anything else on the island.
oh great...bring the R68 DOWN to R110B standards! -Nick
Heh. Sorry guy, just so sick of all the whining. :)
I understand :-) -Nick
Well in that case, while you restore phase shunting you should look at the R68 traction motors and fix that whine from them!!
For the LAST time, it isn't the MOTORS whining, it's the subtalkers. :)
LOL .... < G > .... please stop I'm getting funny looks from the staff here.
Mr t__:^)
Heh. And that would be because of Subtalk? Better be careful, you might find us looking over the busses to see what can be filched to fix the redbirds. :)
A CNG powered Redbird .... hmmm, would require that the entire underground be fixed so they would fit, then we would have to make the entire system explosion proof ... guess that's not such a good idea.
Well, maybe we could make them into trailers (on rubber tires) to be pulled around ... would have to cut in stairways & install pull cords.
Mr t__:^)
Heh. That'd give the redbird fans something to think about. Let's DO it! :)
How about cutting 'em in half and making artics? Better yet, put rails back in the streets and run some overhead wires; it works for R-9s and 17s :D.
Sounds good. Folks in cars and trucks would learn right away not to play chicken with a Redbird HRV (heavy vs. LRV).
Mr t__:^)
But, Thurston, doesn't your staff ALWAYS give you funny looks? ;-D
BMTman
Only those who have been here know for sure, and I told you everything was a secret & you were supose to forget you were ever here. I knew I should have left you locked in the orange bin.
Mr t__:^)
A Hippo on Steroids now I would be up for that !
My friend me thinks you've been spending too much time at the Coke machine on long over nights ? Did the wife take a vacation and leave you holding down the fort ?
Mr t__:^)
Heh. We have IV drips for Cherry coke here. Nancy handles the day shift, I do the nights ... nice and quiet at night, you can THINK. :)
Wonder what the 68's could do though if they had some balls. (grin)
If we ever get one at Branford, we'll have to do something or she'll run out of track before she gets anywhere close up to speed. Our R-17 almost gets up to a gallop before we have to back off the Controller (there is a darn hill & a S curve right in the middle of the run).
Mr t__:^)
State of New York is about to pay for some serious track-straightening here in upstate for the Empire Corridor so the trains will be able to gallop ... if the museum as on this side of the Connecticut river, maybe we could fund that. :)
I sit here watching 8 miles of extremely straight track that was abandoned a year ago rust away wishing some old subway cars could stretch their legs out on it. Alas there was a 3MPH restriction on it before it was abandoned, so that give you an idea of how big an investment in wood and gravel would be required ...
Your suppose to slow down for that curve???
Opps
Actually, all you need to fix the field shunting problem is
a pair of wire cutters, but I think the R68s got ECAM during GOH,
so you'd need a PROM burner then.
E-CAM, yes...GOH, no (SMS, remember?).
David
EPROMS ... we can do EPROMS ... take it in a little here, a little tuck there, push the WRITE button, woohoo. Ah, the things you can actually accompilsh on subtalk and nowhere else. :)
Subway-buff: Tell Peggy that her timing for the LIRR Port Jeff/ ferry/ Bridgeport MN trip was right on. Tie replacement (concrete ties)on the Port Jeff branch is resulting in transfer to buses at Huntington today and at Smithtown tomorrow (eastbound).
Amazing how enthused LIRR has become about concrete ties, now that their 150-ton DE/DM engines are spreading rails and have caused a derailment on the branch.
For the concrete tie job between Kew Gardens and Jamaica Avenue a couple of years ago, they replaced wooden ties that were a mere 7 years old, and were sold to the BR&W.
All are hidden expenses of not electrifying to Port Jeff.
Gee I hope they don't have to do with work on the OB branch!
As soon as they have a derailment on the OB branch, it'll be their next priority. Anything but admit their Super Steel engines are not track-worthy and should go to Naparona.
I agree with you about the "hidden cost." However, properly designed and installed concrete ties are superior anyway (NE Corridor has them), so I have no inherent objections to their installation.
I don't either, but I was pointing out their ulterior motive for doing so, especially when they are in some cases pulling up perfectly good wooden ties.
It has a LA Metro train with the T/O saying doors opening and the doors do not open then he says doors closing please stand clear and the doors are closed then the train moves a couple of feet. then the same thing happens. the train sounds like the DC metro rohr cars and the MBTA 01800's.
as some of you know, the 7 came out on the queens tribune newspaper. it said "they will be replaced by new, high-tech silver cars the beginning of 2002". also i got this:
"R-142/R-142A Option Order: This option order for 320 additional cars will be taken according to operations to complete the full retirement of the R36 World's Fair cars. Estimate to take place sometime in early 2002."
so are the r142's coming to the 7 or what? To me, i think they are because the 7 will be getting cbtc after the L line. The r62's don't have cbtc. does anybody know whats going to happen?
1. No IRT cars have CBTC capability. Whether they can/will be retrofitted with it at some point in the future is a different matter.
2. Car assignments are determined by NYC Transit, not the Queens Tribune.
The option order of 320 R-142s (which has been awarded to Bombardier, by the way, and isn't really an option...it's a change of the contract terms) will indeed replace R-36s, along with R-26s, R-28s, R-29s, and R-33s (including single units). No one group of new cars is replacing any one group of old cars, and just because a line's fleet is being replaced, that doesn't mean that the line is getting new cars. The #7 line will get what it gets, when it gets it.
David
[1. No IRT cars have CBTC capability. Whether they can/will be retrofitted with it at some point in the future is a different matter. ]
My impression is thas R142(A) do have it.
Arti
Impressions aren't always accurate. The R-142 and R-142A cars have NO CBTC capability. The R-143s (for the Canarsie Line) are coming in wired for it, but without the equipment installed...that will come later.
David
[Impressions aren't always accurate. The R-142 and R-142A cars have NO CBTC capability. The R-143s (for the Canarsie Line) are coming in wired for it, but without the equipment installed...that will come later. ]
So probably R142s are ready aswell. Fact is that they use the LonWorks based intercar communication system, the same used in R143.
Arti
I am well aware that the R-142 and R-142A cars use LonWorks. In fact, I'm the one who first reported it on this board.
The R-143s have wiring to which CBTC equipment will be attached. They have space reserved for the equipment. The R-142 and R-142A have neither. Can space be found within the cars for the equipment? No doubt, especially as such equipment is bound to become smaller over the next few years. But at this point, June 2001, the cars are not equipped for CBTC, nor is the wiring in place for the equipment.
David
Could've sworn the 6 Line with the R142As is getting ATO sometime soon.
ATO is not CBTC. CBTC allows the trains to operate by relaying their positions. ATO just automates the train.
I know. That wasn't a mistake.
[Could've sworn the 6 Line with the R142As is getting ATO sometime soon. ]
Depends what you define as soon. MTA will replace signals when they need replacement and IND will be the next project after 7.
See http://home.nyc.rr.com/arti/mta.gif
The ones in red will be next for resignaling.
Arti
I believe there was signaling work out in on the Pelham Line a while ago. Also, the West End is getting signal work as well.
[I believe there was signaling work out in on the Pelham Line a while ago. ]
Exactly! Lines what need to be resignaled will be done using CBTC, Pelham already in good state of repair will not be one of them in the near future.
Arti
please excuse me what CBTC MEAN. Thank you ,DT
Communications Based Train Control
(click on above to read a NYCT report on same)
please excuse me what CBTC MEAN. Thank you ,DT
Just because they are replacing R36wf's doesn't mean they go to thew #7
The 7 runs 11 car trains.
yeah but they can change all that. you'll never know.
Considering that nearly ALL of the R-142's will arrive in 5-car config, i'd say it's a safe bet. (Some bombardier cars are coming in 6-car sets.)
The T/A has announced because of the complaints about the R-68s on SubTalk that the control settings are going to be changed. They are going to set the acceleration rate at 5mph per second which is the same as the BMT Multi-Section cars so they will have to place "Hold On" signs throughout the cars. They are also going to install powerful new brakes that can slow the cars at 5 mph per second. They have also raised the top speed of the cars to 120 mph which will be reached on the express tracks of the Sea Beach Line.
BMTJeff
I didn't know it was April 1st. I better re-set the clock on my computer.
great!! Will the R68s get the NX route signals as well??????
The R-68s will definitely get NX signals as well. This upgrading of the R-68s is a test being conducted by the T/A to see if high speed train service is possible in the New York City subway system.
BMTJeff
"NX route signals"? Those would be special signals to be installed on the Sea Beach express tracks for the (120 mph) revived "NX" route, right?
That's correct. There would have to be "NX" signals.
BMTJeff
And when the 2nd Ave subway is built will the R-68s stop at a station near Bellevue just for SubTalkers !!!
Bill "Newkirk"
That is correct. They'll even provide computers that can only access the SubTalk webpage for those bored SubTalkers waiting for a train or just to pass the time.
BMTJeff
I've also heard that the crews in da Bronx will be painting Zebra stripes on these cars so that certain folks will stop calling them Hippos.
Mr t__:^)
They have even thought of Cheetah spots on the R-68s. Even better, they have also thought of painting flames on the sides of the cars.
BMTJeff
There have been some recent postings on the ridership of the Sea Beach and Brighton, with a little West End thrown in. With the Manny Bridge flip coming fairly soon, and (from what I read here) the expected weekend truncation of the West End at Pacific St., it would be useful to see the official ridership figures for Brighton, 4th Ave., Sea Beach and West End (Culver thrown in for comparison). It seems to me that if there is to be a truncation of weekend service over the Manny Bridge, it should be done with the line with the least number of riders since the least number of people should be inconvenienced. (I don't know why any truncation is needed now, since in the "old" days before the Christie connection was built, I think the Brighton, Sea Beach and West End all operated weekends over the bridge as expresses to Manhattan.)
Does anyone have separate weekday average, and weekend average, ridership figures for each of these lines? If not, average daily, or total yearly values for each line would still give a sense of their ranking, by ridership. For this purpose, I thought it would be helpful to include the Culver (F), since it always runs to Manhattan from Brooklyn.
I think ridership should be (with the typical exclusion of stations served by more than one route) for:
Brighton - between Prospect Park and Coney Island (and also DeKalb and CI),
Culver - between Church Ave. and CI (and Jay St. and CI) - (just for comparison),
4th Ave. - between 59th St. and 95th St.,
Sea Beach - between 59th St. and CI.
West End - between 36th St. and CI.
It seems to me that if there has to be a truncation of service on weekends, the route with the lowest number of riders should be truncated, and services on the northern ends could still be maintained, as was (is?) done with the Q serving Queensbridge most weekday hours and the B serving Queensbridge other times. That didn't seem to be confusing to riders.
Any comments?
Thanks.
Mike Rothenberg
1999 statistics:
WEEKDAYS:
Brighton (Ocean Parkway-7 Avenue, not including Prospect Park): 105,115
Culver (Neptune Avenue-York Street, not including 4 Avenue or Jay Street): 74,411
Sea Beach (86 Street-8 Avenue, not including New Utrecht Avenue): 22,137
West End (Bay 50 Street-9 Avenue, not including 62nd Street): 42,055
4 Avenue (95 Street-Union Street, not including 9 Street): 61,907
SATURDAYS:
Brighton: 56,886
Culver: 40,015
Sea Beach: 9,802
West End: 19,597
4 Avenue: 34,829
SUNDAYS:
Brighton: 45,311
Culver: 31,594
West End: 16,010
Sea Beach: 7,367
4 Avenue: 25,608
The stations that were left out were omitted because they serve more than one line. It's impossible to tell (without separate counts) which line these people took once they entered the system.
David
These statistics are interesting - and useful:
1. If any line deserves peak express service, it's the Culver line. Maybe this could be accomplished by extending the V to Kings Highway during peak hours as an express fro Jay St., or terminating the F at Church Ave. during peak yours, and replaing it by the V, operating express between Jay and Church, then local to Coney Island.
2. If any weekend bridge service should be truncated, it should be on the Sea Beach, not the West End.
Mike Rothenberg
By those stats it is hard to argue. But remember if the West End was truncated the Sea Beach would gain more riders. They do ride over very similar routes and they intersect and almost intersect at numerous points. But you guys are starting to wear me down. I still don't know ridership on the Sea Beach is so low. It bums me out, and here I sit writing wearing my Navy Blue and Yellow N shirt. What a pisser.
Fred, fear not. West End is much higher than those figures quote, since they were from 2 years ago. Ditto for Sea Beach.
Thanks Piasan. I think I will be able to hold out longer, but I do wonder why so few people ride the Sea Beach. Is there no industry anywhere on its route? Strange. And why does the Brighton have so much traffic?
Question 1. There isn't much industry along the Sea Beach, though there is more than along the other lines under discussion.
Question 2. This question was posed, and answered in detail, under another thread a few days ago.
David
Well, in some ways I cannot understand it either, since the Sea beach serves a very densly packed Chinese area in Sunset Park. In fact, the custom among the chinese is to ride the N train until they see blue sky, then get off, meaning the first stop after the running on open sub-grade.
The West End goes thru the Hasidic community of Borough Park, which has the largest growing population base. It's not uncommon for a Hasidic family to have 5, 6, 7 even 8 children.
But, as industry expands in the Sea Beach's area, and it will, many construction projects are occuring on the corridor, and with the opening of the Bay Ridge Rail Transfer station, things will look up.
Ciao.
As I mentioned a few days ago, the busiest Sea Beach Line station, by far, is 8 Avenue, or "Blue Sky" as it's called by the locals (not by the expresses {g}). North of that, N trains are on the Fourth Avenue Line, and turnstile counts accrue to that line and not the Sea Beach.
David
It's entirely obvious why the Brighton line gets more ridership.
While on the other lines, once you get away from the range of one line, you're in the range of the other, the Brighton is the last line. It gets all the bus traffic. It also goes through high density areas in Brighton and Flatbush. And is the fastest route, with the Q.
The Brighton handles much of the bus/train commuters from Manhattan Beach, Gerritsen Beach and Sheepshead Bay, not unlike the E/F handling much of the traffic from Hollis, Queens Village and Laurelton. One way to ease congestion on the Brighton is to extend the IRT south from Flatbush/Nostrand, which is not in anyone's plans to date.
thats not where the traffic on the D/Q comes from, There is a shizzit full of people along the E 16 street coming from brighton and Up, if you extend the IRT down, it wont do Sh*t, i love the way pwoplw make assumptions, and plus i like yhe way people talk about the culver, like it gets no passengers from brooklyn at all, only from queens JEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZus Christ was born a JEWWWWWWW, and rode a BIKE
You're an idiot.
The Culver Line gets NO bus traffic in Brooklyn, nobody is that stupid.
Extending the IRT would be a lot better if it turned down the Bay Ridge tracks, then went down Flatbush Avenue.
And bikes weren't invented 2000 years ago, when Christ was born and died a Jew.
I agree about the IRT. An extension would only be useful if it turned onto the Bay Ridge tracks with a terminus at, say Utica Av., probably best with one station between the Flatbush Av. station and Utica Av.
I wasn't saying that! I was saying that the line should be run down Flatbush, not Nostrand, and it can't be done directly without demolishing the Flatbush station.
In fact, I think what you're proposing is even more useless that a Nostrand extension.
Remember 60 plus years ago, the Nostrand Line was planned, also a branch down Utica Ave was also planned, with them to meet somewhere around Ave U and Nostrand
Sorry, then I misunderstood. I don't agree at all with an extension down Flatbush. And you and I have been down that route before. My suggestion to use the Bay Ridge tracks to Utica would provide East Flatbush residents with much better service. And using the existing open cut would certainly cost a whole lot less than digging a new subway.
What good would an extension to Utica Avenue and Farragut Road do? There isn't any reason to spend money to extend subway service one stop to a fairly useless location (unless auto repair shops need subway service).
Why do you think a subway extension down Flatbush isn't a good idea?
Actually, auto repair shops do need subway service. You drive there. You drop your car off. Now you want to go home, or to work, or wherever.
Pigs, in my time, anyway, there was a large number of passengers who used the #6 bus from Canarsie and Flatlands who used to go to the Flatbush Av. terminal of the IRT subway. An extension to Utica and Farragut would cut down their travel time immensely. I assumed that this is still the case.
Yea Q, how does it feel to be useless. American Pig has spoken. He's the guy to tell us what's what. Sometimes I wonder why I like him. Maybe because he's so opinionated like I used to be. Oh my, the wonders of youth. Let it go in one ear and out the other.
Actually, Fred, I was surprised at his answer. My impression of Pigs is that he is an extremely intelligent person. But no one is infallible, and I stick by my opinion. The only underground subway that NYC should be building is the 2nd Av. line. All other subway line extensions should be on existing open cuts and embankments (a la Brighton, Sea Beach, and Dyre Av.).
Why not extend the L/Canarsie to terminate at the unused lower level at 9th Ave on the West End Line, with connections to the 2/5 at Flatbush/Nostrand, the D at either Ave H or Newkirk Ave (depending upon logistics...probably Ave H), the F at Ditmas and the B&M at the the L's new terminus at 9th Ave/LowerLevel?
Seems to me you'd be opening up whole new vistas of travel around Brooklyn with such an extension...as well as regain the use of an existing unused station in the process.
Yeah, but the ratio hasn't changed much. The 15 year abuse of the Sea Beach line has rendered it useless to most people except those who live right on top of it.
okay, I too was riding along my beloved N with the navy blue N tshirt and enjoy the fact that it's relatively empty compared to the D,Q, & B into Brooklyn...
I do know that everytime I ride the B,D,Q I feel like cutting my wrists because of the agony that I go through from the noise.
The N train is peaceful, people opt not to ride it because they think it's slower...not true at all...
Someone mentioned that the N serves the financial district for Brooklyn...they get out of work around 5-6 PM..that's when the N is crowded...otherwise, all the other N passengers are already home, with their family, etc.
The other trains BDQ, cater to to the facotry workers, restaurant owners, cashiers, etc, and the financial mid-towners....they work around the clock. Actually, someone said this about the 4 train, but applies here...
I like my N train peaceful and quiet....Grand Street, I admit, attracts too many noisy people...
By the way, even when the downtown N/ R were going local on Broadway (before station rehab), they were still pretty fast getting to DeKalb...
I got off the R at 34th and took the Q to DeKalb, (no wait for the Q)...I get to Dekalb, 5 minutes later, the same R train pulls up, with the same bum I saw earlier sleeping on it...
it's really only a 5-9 minute difference....I rather sit down & enjoy the silence...
by thw ay, I am still lobbying to keep R68's on the N
Seabeach53
1. The people at the local stops between Church Avenue and Jay Street screamed bloody murder the last couple of times NYCT hinted at running express service in that area (of course, the chief concern was the loss of direct service to Manhattan, since the local service would have been the G).
2. If memory serves, it was felt that Sea Beach riders have suffered enough, what with their trains being relegated to the Montague Street Tunnel and Broadway Local for the past 15 years due to ongoing Manhattan Bridge work. Truncating the Sea Beach was deemed politically untenable, although the ridership statistics support such a service pattern.
David
I think running the F express from Church to Jay is now justified, with the extension of the V to Church picking up the slack at the local stations.
[I think running the F express from Church to Jay is now justified, with the extension of the V to Church to pick up the slack at the local stations.]
Agreed!! However, I'm fairly certain that there are nowhere near enough cars available to pull that off.
Also, the G would need to be extended to Church, since the express tracks would no longer be available for relays.
Exactly. With the Culver getting a good deal of service, it would be smart to utilize the express tracks. Plus, extending the G gives them another local. The only problem is the presently unusable Culver express tracks from Jay to 4th av.
[The only problem is the presently unusable Culver express tracks from Jay to 4th av. ]
The interlocking is planned yo be fixed, they'll try the first solid state interlocking in the system there.
Arti
Solid state? What are the other interlockings using, vacuum tubes?
Here's what Google gave me as the first result.
Look for descripption of SSI at http://www.indianbusinesspages.com/Railway/Solid%20State/
Arti
>>The interlocking is planned yo be fixed, they'll try the first solid state interlocking in the system there.<<
Arti
That being the interlocking at Jay, correct? As reported on this site the problems are:
1. messed up tower at Bergen.
2. Bergen LL station is not in condition for revenue service. (this would be essential for express service).
3. Rails in bad condition from Jay St. to 4th av.
I don't think that the interlocking is the problem, but then again, I know little about those tracks.
BTW: What is a solid state interlocking? What are the other interlockings?
I don't think that the interlocking is the problem, but then again, I know little about those tracks.
The interlocking has been out of service since the fire. The other issues are minor by comparison.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
[That being the interlocking at Jay, correct? As reported on this site the problems are:
1. messed up tower at Bergen. ]
This project will bring the control over to Jay St tower.
[2. Bergen LL station is not in condition for revenue service. (this would be essential for express service). ]
Why would it be essential? If the idea is to speed up service for riders south of Church and the V not G serves local stations north of Church.
[3. Rails in bad condition from Jay St. to 4th av. ]
Obviously not that bad as they are used in occasional GOs.
[I don't think that the interlocking is the problem, but then again, I know little about those tracks. ]
What I understand the interlocking is currently manualy operated.
[BTW: What is a solid state interlocking? What are the other interlockings? ]
Here's what Google gave me as the first result.
Look for descripption of SSI at http://www.indianbusinesspages.com/Railway/Solid%20State/
Arti
>>Why would it be essential? If the idea is to speed up service for riders south of Church and the V not G serves local stations north of Church.<<
But, Bergen is the last station before the 2 lines split. It would be a good idea to allow a transfer at that station. Especially since there are platforms down there.
[3. Rails in bad condition from Jay St. to 4th av. ]
>>Obviously not that bad as they are used in occasional GOs.<<
No they aren't. They haven't been used in a G/O since that fire that messed things up. The rails are not shiny, but rusted and closed. While the signals appear to be in good condition, the rails themselves are closed off at 4th av. With red Lamps just after the interlocking. Even the Jay St. Put-in F's during the evening rush have to switch over to the Local tracks at 4th av. If they want to use those tracks, they will have to be completely replaced.
>>What I understand the interlocking is currently manualy operated.<<
That's crazy. Not what you said, but what the TA does. They have the express tracks closed off even though they could be manually operated.
They have the express tracks closed off even though they could be manually operated.
To paraphrase an old Peter Sellers' routine: "They could be operated manually or once a year." :-)
Perhaps when all the r143'S are up and running, it would be possible.
These statistics are interesting - and useful:
1. If any line deserves peak express service, it's the Culver line. Maybe this could be accomplished by extending the V to Kings Highway during peak hours as an express from Jay St., or terminating the F at Church Ave. during peak yours, and replaing it by the V, operating express between Jay and Church, then local to Coney Island.
These statistics are certainly interesting and useful. They are not sufficiently complete for proving this assertion.
For example, you do have not factored in the current service levels for each of these lines. As a point of information the Brighton trains each has runs a 6-8 minute rush hour headway (for a 3-4 minute combined), whereas the Culver runs a at 4-6 minute rush hour headways (north of Kings Hwy). So the combined max Brighton service is 20 tph and the combined max Culver service is 15 tph. Using the Brighton as a baseline, we see that the Culver has 75% (15/20) the service level and 71% (74,411/105,115) the passenger level with the current routing.
The second missing parameter is the load level. This would measure how adequately (or inadequately) current service levels meet current demand. If current load levels are on the order of 60%, then service should be transferred to other lines where the service levels are double. On the other hand, service levels of 100% or greater would indicate that the entire Southern District deserves increased service.
The third missing paramter is the distribution of demand among the various stations. If 70% of the passengers on the Culver came from the stations between Jay and Church, then a 50-50 express/local split, would be a service disaster.
There are some ideals that one should try to achieve through scheduling. Two of these ideals are equalization of load levels and matching headways for interconnecting lines. Achieving these ideals is complicated by the fact that most of the Southern District services provide service in the Bronx and Queens. Often, these dual purpose lines have confilcts between their uptown service demands and their Southern District service demands. Things were much simpler before Chrystie Street.
David, thanks for the very interesting statistics. It is quite clear that the Brighton has almost as many riders as the West End + Sea Beach + 4th Av. together. Two of those three 4th Av. services operate over the weekend. It seems to me quite justified, from this fact and your statistics, that the Brighton should have two services, express and local, over the weekend, too.
At least they should bring back Brighton Exp on Saturdays. As far as I can remember there NEVER was Brighton Exp on Sundays, except the Summer Sunday Franklin lines in the early 50s/
I have never run into evidence of a regular Sunday Brighton Express that ran into the City, but the Franklins ran for three or four months a year.
Each express station on the Brighton had a lighted sign with panels. The top said "EXPRESS RUNNING" the middle said "TO CITY" and the bottom said "TO FRANKLIN AVENUE"
( Waffle on above--the middle indication might have been "TO MANHATTAN"--I've never seen a picture of one of the signs, and it's been near a half-century since I saw it in person )
Wow, Paul, I would love to have seen those in action. They certainly would be useful even today.
If I remember correctly the signs said TO CITY and on the other side From City, Express and Local I don t remember saying Franklin,
Bob, I believe you're thinking of the signs that were at the top of station staircases that blinked when a train was coming. These said TO CITY and FROM CITY.
The signs I'm describing were at platform level. At Church Avenue, the sign was placed between the express tracks at the point where the partial tunnel opened up to the sky between 18th and 19th.
The signs were in a box with indications as I described. They were backlighted to indicate the service running. The side facing the southbound platform view showed the indication EXPRESS RUNNING only.
Another variable was a big wooden sign on the southbound Prospect Park platform, broadside. Wooden flaps on the sign said TRAINS TO BRIGHTON BEACH AND CONEY ISLAND with an arrow pointing to the track from DeKalb. On those magical summer sundays when Franklin specials ran, the flaps were lifted to reveal a sign saying CONEY ISLAND TRAINS with arrows pointing to both tracks.
For those who don't know about it: Page 101 July RR Model Crafstman mag: Bottom of the Red Caboose ad. entire page ad..believe it or not N scale brass R32"s...bastante dinero [$$$] but worth taking a look at. Also N gage or HO R46; HO Rl-9, LIRR MP54 arch roof; IRT SMEE's of several types in HO. Ad doesn't say what size the R62's are.Red Caboose, 23 W 45 NYC. [I used to work there when it was Carmen Webster's Model RR Equip. Corp; Dec 64 until TA appointment in 5/65]
The only R-62's I've seen are in N-scale; I believe Image Replicas and one other company sell them.
I saw the R32's in N gauge at a Reenberg trainshow a couple of months ago in Somerset. Very Nice, but I wouldn't even ask the price.
As I have said in other thread, if Concor or someone can mass-produce RDC's, why not a NYC subway car.
The only problem for the manufacturer's is Choices Choices Choices! Enough to make a Skiczoid nuts. However making the cars in kit form may help and the new computer aided mold cutting my reduce the initial costs.Maybe one very popular car from each line Already have R 1/9 then maybe BMT Standard and IRT Lo V's Maybe it can be done
Burn the Slow Orders
Curt
Think it was $400 per pair in the ad; one motor car, one trailer.
When I had more ambition I built about 80 rapid transit coaches and commuter coaches {New York Central steel ex-mainline cars} in S scale, still have about 55 of them. A whole lot cheaper but I never did get the knack for doing modern sculptured designs like CTA, or R40's.
Now that I've started in HO as well I'm thinking of doing the whole mess over in HO and selling off the S fleet but would I ever finish all those trains again?? I HAVE some of the components made up already for High V's, Low V's and Manhattan MUDC's in HO.
It is odd that there haven't been low priced subway cars; they claim there isn't enough market for Athearn style things but then so much of the population lives in cities you'd think there would be.
Look at the BART and WMATA cars in the Walther's catalog. They look quite good for the money (HO) if you're not looking for specific types and would make a nice addition for a generic transit line on a layout, especially the WMATA ones. [IMHO BART is ugly].
Why HO? O scale is 1/64th...makes nicer third rail shoes :)
O scale is NOT 1/64th.
O scale is approximately 1/48th. S scale is 1/64th.
Actually I do like the S size better..especially for rapid transit cars; all mine are in the 47-51 foot variety and they do show nicely.I should have built an R1-9 set but avoided doing the bigger cars so they wouldn't compete size wise with the AF pass. cars which are not scale length.
The only reason I went into HO at all was because some of the things I wanted like more diesels especially SD40's, and modern freight cars were available at reasonable prices. I will not pay $300-400 for a diesel loco or even steam when I can have good ones in Ho for $30-70.
Maybe I should finish the HO subway cars I started and put them up for sale; I really am happier with the S Size; which as another poster has corrected...S is 1/64; O is 1/48.
So they share trackage with American Flyer..who cares! There is an el on my layout and both run on it.
Anyone looking for low-cost modelling ideas feel free to contact me.
Yeah but you would need lots and lots of space to fit a O scale layout.
I think what MTH is doing is on the right track. They came out with the R-42 sets a few years ago, but they weren't to scale and they had lots of detailing errors. But from the photos I've seen, the new R-21 models are VERY accurately detailed (with the exception of the chasis and underbody, which appear to be the identical parts used in the R-42 models). It sounds like they want to introduce models that use interchangeable parts and toolings, so that they can offer a variety of modesl at fairly reasonable prices. Supposedly, they are going to issue an R-17 and possibly an R-33.
I would imagine that the "Premiere Line" R-32 model (which uses a scale-length chasis, unlike the R-42 model) will set the stage for other accurately-tooled "B" division models.
I think what MTH is doing is on the right track. They came out with the R-42 sets a few years ago, but they weren't to scale and they had lots of detailing errors. But from the photos I've seen, the new R-21 models are VERY accurately detailed (with the exception of the chasis and underbody, which appear to be the identical parts used in the R-42 models). It sounds like they want to introduce models that use interchangeable parts and toolings, so that they can offer a variety of models at fairly reasonable prices. Supposedly, they are going to issue an R-17 and possibly an R-33.
I would imagine that the upcoming "Premiere Line" R-32 model (which uses a scale-length chasis, unlike the R-42 model) will set the stage for other accurately-tooled "B" division models.
There has been another dead man found on the "D" train. This time it was on an uptown "D" train where someone reported an unconscious person on an uptowm "D" train at the W. 4th Street station. Go to http://1010wins.com/topstories/StoryFolder/story_944736317_html for the story on the dead man on the "D" train.
BMTJeff
The "D" line must be the dead line.
It seems to be that way in recent months on the "D" (Dead) train.
Well D does stand for death, as i personally can attest. On one of my many railfan trips on the D in the Bronx in 9/86, an old man sitting next to me (pre GOH R42's) dropped dead. I thooght he fell asleep, and when fe fell on me i gently nudged him back up, figuring he'd wake up and apologize. Instead, he fell foward onto the floor. After some screaming (not by me), the conductor was notified and we were held at the next stop until help arrived (i believe it was 182-183rd. St.)
I'm sure grateful nothing like that ever happened to me. Likewise that in my years of operating both on NYCT and in the West that I never hit or ran over anyone but had a few near-misses.
Did seeing a man die next to you leave you in any shock or a while?
I seem to remember a Transit Museum exhibit a few years back. It focused on the D route as a metaphor for the cycle of life, starting at Coney Island (children at play); progressing through Brooklyn College (education), Prospect Park (recreation), midtown Manhattan (work), and Central Park and Yankee Stadium (more recreation); and ending near Woodlawn cemetery (death).
What you have said about the "D" route (It focused on the D route as a metaphor for the cycle of life,
starting at Coney Island (children at play); progressing through Brooklyn College (education), Prospect Park (recreation),
midtown Manhattan (work), and Central Park and Yankee Stadium (more recreation); and ending near Woodlawn cemetery
(death).) sums it all up.
BMTJeff
Slow speed of the R68s. It takes so long to reach your destination you'll die before you get there.
lol !! ??
that was the 5:53 AM D from Stillwell. Body was removed at 59th St.
Wow... this week the 6 Avenue Line has been plagued in general.
Tuesday
AM rush door problem at DeKalb Avenue on a Q at 7:30 AM
Wheel lockup on the D at 1:30 PM
Thursday
3 of my friends and I were victims of Petit Larceny on the Q at 3:30 PM
"Thursday
3 of my friends and I were victims of Petit Larceny on the Q at 3:30 PM "
What happened???
It was after school. We got on at DeKalb Avenue on the Q toward Brighton Beach. At Church Avenue, 3 little 10 year olds along with 2 other 20 year olds got on and went through the end doors and started jumping around and screaming and when they got to the end of the car, they saw us and the 3 little ones started patting us down in the pockets. They took 2 of my friends wallets and went through them. They took their money and Student MetroCard. The 2 big ones were watching the doors and for other people. When the train got to Newkirk, we were unable to get off because of the 2 big ones. Then they continued to feel everyone up for more cash and then shortly before Kings Highway, they moved down to the next car but gave everythign back except for one of my friends' 50 cents. 1 of them get off at Kings Highway so it was 3 left. Then 2 more left at Sheepshead Bay and I got off at Brighton Beach. To my dismay, they did also. I was careful of them not seeing me. But they got out of the station as well walking toward the direction I walk eating up fruits from food stores. Throwing pits at each other in the street. Eventually I got home.
>>> They took 2 of my friends wallets and went through them. They took their money and Student MetroCard. The 2 big ones were watching the doors and for other people <<<
What you describe is not petty larceny. It is Felony Robbery along with Conspiracy to commit robbery. It should have been reported to the police as soon as possible. The crime was committed at the time they took the wallets, even if they later returned the contents. Until these persons are caught they will continue to do this sort of thing, but escalating the seriousness of the crimes.
Tom
I couldn't agree more.
To robbery add kidnapping, false imprisonment (not letting you off the train), assault and battery (unwanted contact with intent to harm).
This deserves serious jail time.
Where's Bernie Goetz when we need him? Is he running as Rudy's successor? Seems to fit ...
Seriously though, I took a bullet myself about one inch below the right-hand (as I see it) "jewel" ... that's what convinced ME to move upstate. Up here, everybody knows how to (Sam Kinnison voice) *AIM!*
Still, file a complaint ... if nothing else, it'll erode the stats.
Why give them serious Jail time. Three hots and a cot and the aclu it not cost effective. These individuals should be incouraged to step in front of the next train as it just enters the station Off course radio the MM to close eyes and have head down and set the breaks after the thud. That way they will learn their lesson and not go to the NY state University for learning advanced criminal behavior ie. Singsing and Attica.
Burn the Slow Orders.
Curt
That is pretty serious. I'm suprised nobody tried to stop them. And right in the afternoon. I carry an alarm on me, I don't know if it would've done any good in that situation.
I would've probably pulled the emergency brake, so they couldn't escape. There's no way those punks should've gotten away.
I also try to ride in the front or conductor's car, where TA personnel are right there. A friend of mine who used to ride the subways years ago said avoid it when the kids let out. Of course back then they let out at one time, now thanks to new rules, they can be dismissed as early as 1pm all the way through 4pm. Much harder to avoid it now.
The car was sneeking a peak the whole time. The C/R was 2 cars away. And when they moved two cars up to the C/R, the C/R was with a student. I peaked over and observed them jumping up and down and hanging on the bars swinging. When I got off, I heard a rather large passenger say to the C/R "Don't worry, I got your back next time."
I'm glad I don't usually have to worry about things like that. Usually us Stuy kids have even more reason to be worried. But I'm fairly tall for a 16-year-old, and generally people avoid bothering me. Plus, the fact that I wear loose fitting clothing, and have my hair gorwn out in a 'fro make me look even better.
R68A-5200: Generally, if you dress like a thug, you can get away with a lot.
>>Plus, the fact that I wear loose fitting clothing, and have my hair gorwn out in a 'fro make me look even better.<<
Correction, bigger
Well at 5'2 (and that's pushing it) I look puny, so my only defense is an alarm or mace (or kicking them u-no-where).
It doesn't help in the dating scene either, even the short 5 foot women want to be with tall guys.
I'm 25 but look more like 17 or 18, lets just say women look at me as a boy not a man.
That's enough ranting, I need a girlfriend... bad. Yeah one month and 5 internet dating sites later I'm still alone. :-(
How about some martial-arts training to improve your conditioning and give you a little confidence?
I have cerebral palsy and am up to a blue-belt in Tae Kwon Do. And I'm married :-)
I guess that you can feel sorry for Qtraindash7 since he is rather puny. I saw him on the April Fools' Day field trip with #4 Sea Beach Fred and he is PUNY. Although I'm far from large also but I'm no where near as small as Qtraindash7. I manage not to look like a target on the subways by dressing in a faded denim jacket, faded jeans, unkempt hair though not dirty looking and a beard that isn't kept that neat so I have a rough looking appearence. During the summer I'll wear shorts like almost everyone else who can get away with it and I still look like an unlikely target since I don't look like I have much money. I'm also not the tallest at 5'9" though I don't think that a little punk would want to bother me with my rough appearence. As a matter of fact some people on the subway are afraid of me.
BMTJeff
Yeah one month and 5 internet dating sites later I'm still alone.
It's probably not your fault in any way. I read not long ago that most Internet dating sites have a severe male/female imbalance, with something like 10 men for every woman.
No disrespect intended, but...
How many times do we have to hear this? It's TOTALLY off-topic and diverts attention from postings that actually talk about on-topic issues.
David
No disrespect intended, but...
How many times do we have to hear this? It's TOTALLY off-topic and diverts attention from postings that actually talk about on-topic issues.
Well David, if your surname were Pirmann I'd pay attention to your comment, but it presumably isn't, and I won't.
Actually, my comment was directed at the issue (one poster's height and his perceived problems with the opposite sex, which has been talked about on this board ad nauseum and which has nothing to do with trains in New York or anywhere else) in general, not Mr. Rosa's posting. I meant to respond to the posting Mr. Rosa responded to, not to Mr. Rosa's response, and I apologize for my error.
David
Actually, my comment was directed at the issue (one poster's height and his perceived problems with the opposite sex, which has been talked about on this board ad nauseum and which has nothing to do with trains in New York or anywhere else) in general, not Mr. Rosa's posting. I meant to respond to the posting Mr. Rosa responded to, not to Mr. Rosa's response, and I apologize for my error.
Understood.
As far as Qtraindash7's comments are concerned, well, they are a bit off-topic, and indeed have been discussed at great length, but as far as I'm concerned they're harmless enough and don't detract from the "Subtalk experience," so to speak.
People who post here, are, after all, human, and occasionally would like to share feelings about themselves not connected with trains. Maybe they are looking for support among Internet comrades.
Instead of swinging an axe, offer some compassion and moral support. The poster in question will get back to transit topics soon enough, on his (or her) own.
Please note that first reply to this post is not directed at Peter Rosa. It is in agreement with Peter.
I wonder what will plague the 6th Ave. line during this upcoming week?
BMTJeff
I think that this will be post No. 225,000
Funny how "anniversary" posts such as 225,000 and 250,000 etc. are completely worthless, time wasting efforts.
I can see Jeff's tombstone:
Here lies BMTJeff. He couldn't boil a pot of water, but he did have post 225,000!!!
I own post #100,000, and it was a legit post about the R68. I had no idea I was making this post until someone pointed it out.
Those "anniversary" posts can be a lot of fun even if they seem to be a waste of time.
BMTJeff
Ahhh, now I see why we have the extra humorous posts today! -Nick
O.K., now here's Johnny Olson, tell BMTJeff what he has won.
Sure Bob; Jeff, you've just won a complete set of Redbird Subway cars, also a 13" color television set from the Spiegel Catalog, Spiegel of Chicago, Ill, plus a year's supply of Turtle Wax to keep those Redbirds looking brand new, and last, but not least, a year's supply of Rice-A-Roni, The san francisco treat. Now back to you, Bob.
I'll certainly enjoy the "prizes" that I won for posting the 225,000th message on SubTalk.
BMTJeff
I was ROTFLMAO, and was about to mention that this fascination with "anniversary posts" belonged with a collection of unpunched, expired transfers when I had to pick myself back off the floor to post this.
B.F.D.
Does anyone know if any R142s ran yesterday? And if so, how many, because i didn't see any yesterday.
Yes, they did. I know that one was running.
Yes, I saw at least two sets on the 2:
6321-25 together with 6346-50
6421-30.
There were three sets running last night (early this morning) I didn't get car numbers, mostly because they passed me going in the opposite direction, with the express tracks between us.
yesterday i saw 5 sets. 6301-10,6311-20,6326-35,6411-20,6421-30 i rode on 6411-20. man does that need to be washed or what!
"There were three sets running last night (early this morning"
Does the MTA run any late-night (like 3 AM) R-142s/R142As, or we'll we have to wait for more trains to arrive before that happens? -Nick
Yes they do. Both the R142's and 142a's run 24 hours.
The slant face R-40's are finally in HO-Scale model form. After various companies promissing them and not coming through, we are actually producing them for a limited time. The R-40's will come in a two car set with one motorized car so you can run them on your layout. What's more they will be painted and come with a decal sheet so you can decorate them for any line you wish! They will sell for $350 for a limited time! So obtain your R-40 today by contacting us sales@collect-corner.net
Glen Katz
Collector's Corner
Today, while riding my rerouted F (Queens Local - 63rd Street - Broadway Express), the conductor made the following announcements upon arriving at the stations in question:
21st Street/Queensbridge - "This is 21st Street/Queensbridge, the last stop in Queens. Next stop is Roosevelt Island."
Roosevelt Island - "This is Roosevelt Island. Next stop is 63rd Street and Lexington Avenue in Manhattan."
63rd & Lexington - "This is 63rd Street and Lexington Avenue, the first stop in Manhattan"
Are we supposed to believe that Roosevelt Island has suddenly become a borough unto itself? Even with a Manhattan zip code (10044), two Manhattan area codes (212/646), and residents who serve on Manhattan juries?
If the conductor had been referring to the ISLAND of Manhattan, then the 63rd/Lex announcement would have been correct. However, he was obviously referring to the BOROUGH of Manhattan, which consists of the Islands of Manhattan, Liberty (part), Ellis (part), Governors, Roosevelt, Wards, and Randalls.
Liberty (part)
Liberty (all).
You forgot Marble Hill, and Mill Rock and U Thant Islands.
I stand corrected...
Liberty Island - I remember that New Jersey got the landfill part of Ellis Island (of course, the landfill had come from Manhattan), but they either didn't get any of Liberty Island or forgot to try.
Marble Hill (zip 10463, area codes 718/347) - While it's still part of the BOROUGH of Manhattan, it may or may not be part of Bronx COUNTY - both have been claimed, and residents use the resulting confusion to avoid jury duty in both jurisdictions.
Mill Rock and U Thant Islands - Where are they? Is either worth serving by subway? :-)
U Thant Island is that small piece of land opposite the UN just past the southern tip of Roosevelt Island.Ironically from what I heard and read is that it was formed by the sandhogs who were digging the Steinway Tubes in the 1890's.
U Thant Island is that small piece of land opposite the UN just past the southern tip of Roosevelt Island.Ironically from what I heard and read is that it was formed by the sandhogs who were digging the Steinway Tubes in the 1890's.
And formerly known as Belmont Island, presumably in honor of August.
U THant is a great little island which was a result of a tunnel excavation by a guy named Steinway (no not the 7 42nd st tube) but an now unused tunnel, its great, can only be seen when u go to the southernmost point on roosevelt island beyond renwick abandoned hospital, i have been there many a time, requires a lot of sneaking, u also pas the emergency exit from 53rd st tunnel, im sure railfans dont go on expiditions like I do.
Really I thought U.Thant Is. was from construction of the tunnels the 7 now uses.
Yeah it would be cool to check out where the emergency exits for the 53rd street tunnel are. I've never been to Roosevelt Island. Is it an OK place to walk around?
(Is it an OK place to walk around? )
Aside from deserted areas, I've found that there are few places in NYC that are not OK to walk around in daylight.
Thank you soo much for putting that out.
its plenty ok, I will be organizing a tour, E-mail me if you are interested.
Ahem.. what you forgot to mention is that you will be organizing the tour with me. Just thought I'd mention that, since I got you in.
Really I thought U.Thant Is. was from construction of the tunnels the 7 now uses.
It is from construction of the Steinway (7) tunnels. It's way south of 53rd Street but very close to 42nd.
Thats not what I have read on www.forgottenNY.com
Funny, what Peter Rosa said is exactly the same as the account
on forgotten-ny. What part didn't you get? The island is
from the excavation of the Steinway tubes, which were originally
for trolley cars, and later became the #7 line. I still think
of it by its original name of Belmont Island.
Does the 53rd Street and or 60th street Tunnel go under Roosevelt Island. How hard/expensive would it be to add a station on the 53rd street or 60th street line. Would the grade of the tracks allow the station(s)
Marble Hill is in Manhattan Borough AND New York County. The two are co-terminous. ALL boroughs in NYC are co-terminous with their counties.
Marble Hill is NOT, however, on Manhattan Island, or even "postal city" of "New York, NY". THAT's where it's called the Bronx.
:-) Andrew
The dividing line between The Bronx and Manhattan is 225st. So basically the MN Marble Hill Sta. is in Manhattan but Marble Hill Ave. is in the Bronx.
No. The dividing line is between 228th and 230th. Marble Hill Avenue is in Manhattan.
Ahem ... I *lived* there ... check erroneous maps - 230th *is* the divisor ... I would imagine volunteering for the assembly district polling places in a more tender time would set that straight - AD's are tightly specified ... no offense ... the line runs right up the middle of the street. South is Manhattan (including Marble Hill PJ's) and the north side of the street is DA Bronx ...
Either way, I only posted to say that Marble Hill Avenue is ENTIRELY in Manhattan.
No problemo ... since I first came here over a year ago, the insistence upon gospel fact was a lower standard than it's become lately, just wanted to do my bit for the "accuracy squad" ... heh.
Actually, the dividing line is just south of w. 230 St -- where Spuyten Duyvil Creek used to run. On the south side of 230 and Kingsbridge Ave, (exact site of the old King's Bridgh), the street sign reads Kingsbridge Ave. --i.e., still the Bronx. On the north corner of the next block south -- 228th St. -- the same street is labeled Marble Hill Ave. That avenue changes to Kingsbridge Ave. mid-block, just south of 230th, where the border is.
Could be ... I can only account for the neighborhood up to the 1960's, prior to JFK High School being built on the old NYC yards. Prior to that from Broadway headed west was the Marble Hill Projects on the south side of 230th (Manhattan election district), then a park that ran from the edge of the projects to Kinsgbridge Avenue - I volunteered there and it was under the Manhattan borough portion of the Parks Dept (not Bronx) then on the other side of Kinsbridge Avenue running all the way to Riverdale Avenue was a huge warehouse facility owned by Walters that was later torn down. There were no residences on the south side of 230th other than the Marble Hill PJ's. But on the maps I remember from the time, the dotted line ran ALONG 230th St. That's how I remember it though for what it's worth. I lived ON 230th for several years, across from the park between Kingsbridge and Tibbets Avenues.
It would make sense though that the entire stretch of projects, park and warehouse was probably the old riverbed though.
I guess that is why I had a zip code of 10463 when I lived on Marble Hill ave, and we all know The Bronx zip codes start with 104 and northern Manhattan (Inwood) is 10034.
Yeah, the post office didn't go for that "Manhattan" rap ... after all, 10463 was "greater Riverdale" ...
Actually, it goes way back, decades ago -- the original boundary of the borough of Manhattan (New York County) was the Harlem River. It is NOT following its original route....the original route can be seen on some maps that show the delineation of the county lines.
I'm not sure of the year, but the present "canal" shortening/straightening the river (i.e. giving it the official name, seen on some maps "Harlem River and Ship Canal") was done to aid navigation.
Hence, the fact that the river now cuts a swath straight across just below 225th Street, causes a lot of confusion as to what borough/county the folks of Marble Hill neighborhood are really in. Even when I grew up in the Bronx, we assumed it was really the Bronx, when in fact it is New York County/borough of Manhattan.
With the regards to the exact dates, the only information I have to go on is old photograph records. Perhaps somebody can provide more detailed information.
In 1893, work on the new route of the Harlem River had just been finished. The channel was completely excavated and blasted through at the future Marble Hill/Inwood neighbourhood boundary.
Yet the old route of the Harlem River was left in place at this time. Would this have left Marble Hill as an island? I am not sure when the old Harlem River was filled in, but I would imagine it was soon thereafter.
MATT-2AV
New York Central filled in the "former creek" and turned the space into freight yards. That space is now occupied by JFK (don't remember if it was a High School of not) but it was yard up until the school was built on the former land to the south of 230th street. Yards (and any sign of them) are LONG gone ... somewhere in the late 60's ...
According to an issue of "Time Out New York" from about a month ago in an article about affordable neighborhoods,the creek was filled in 1914.
Might be ... sorry, though I'm officially declared a "subtalk fossil," I wasn't around for that roadwork. :)
There are still 2 signs of the old freight yard. There is a stub track braching off from the MetroNorth mainline between Marble Hill & Spuyten Duyvil Stations that used to continue to the yard. And the old Kingsbridge Freight Depot (with some NYCRR lettering on it) still exists as the U-Haul bldg. on 230th St.
Yep ... that'll be it. West of (Corlear I think) was also tracks and there were a few tracks that wrapped around and ran parallel to 230th in front of that old warehouse. What is probably the UHaul thingy would be the secondary building behind the main one that was mostly on the corner of 238th and Kingsbridge ... I haven't been there since soemwhere around 1968 so I'm sure it's changed.
The Harlem river begins where it bends southward, where it meets the Tibbet's Brook (underground) The east-west section WAS the Spuyten Duyvil Creek. The Harlem River Ship Canal was built in 1895, but the creek was not filled in until about 15 years later, making Marble Hill an island for a few years.
And the funny part is that the Harlem River is not a river at all. Like the East River, it's an arm of the Atlantic Ocean.
Like the East River, it's an arm of the Atlantic Ocean.
No it isn't. It's a real river. It's the same river as the Tibbet's Brook which starts in Yonkers and used to be the Saw Mill River.
Maybe it used to be a real river, but since the ship channel was built, it's essentially a tidal strait.
>>> since the ship channel was built, it's essentially a tidal strait. <<<
Although the East River is a strait connecting Long Island Sound to the Atlantic Ocean, the Harlem River is really an estuary of the Hudson River.
Tom
Yeah, but we were told once on a boat tour out of Kingston that the Hudson below that area isn't a true river either but rather another estuary.
In a decision by the U.S. Supremem Court back in the '70s, it was declared that the Harlem River/ East River was a secondary mouth of the Hudson River. As a result, Long Island is essentially considered part of mainland NY state, and therefore NY Harbor Pilots are allowed to pilot ships into Block Island, RI harbors because they are closer than mainland Rhode Island. So sayeth the Court (and if anyone is so inclined, go look up the decision).
Yep, the Hudson is actually a "tidal basin" ... it's salt water up to ABOUT Beacon (the line moves) and above there, it remains a fresh water tidal basin until about Albany/Troy ... what's amusing up here is that the Hudson is maybe 300 feet across from side to side at the Port of Albany. It's a stream above the general Albany area at Waterford.
Yep, the Hudson is actually a "tidal basin" ... it's salt water up to ABOUT Beacon (the line moves) and above there, it remains a fresh water tidal basin until about Albany/Troy ... what's amusing up here is that the Hudson is maybe 300 feet across from side to side at the Port of Albany. It's a stream above the general Albany area at Waterford.
I've also heard that the Hudson is the only fjord in North America. Possibly that term and "tidal basin" are used more or less interchangeably.
That would be accurate to me at least. But the "experts" are INSISTENT that the word "tidal basin" be used. Must be discrimination against Norwegians since it IS a fjord as well by definition. :)
Yeah. If you ever pass the Hudson River in the Adirondack region, it's barely even a stream. It's hilarious to think that this is the same proud Hudson River of the NYC area. I remember during a family trip in the Adirondacks, my dad joked about us crossing into the "Jersey Side".
:-) Andrew
Heh. Not much other than trailer parks on the "New York" side of the Hudson here - everything that's "happening" is on the "Joisey" side up here. And yes, the Hudson *is* a creek up here. :)
Maybe it used to be a real river, but since the ship channel was built, it's essentially a tidal strait.
The brook still flows into the river.
EASY MISTAKE TO MAKE!
As far as its bridge conection to the rest of the world, Roosevelt Island might as well be part of Queens. The DOT bus route serving it is a Queens route. The NYPD and FDNY have placed it under Queens Boro Commands, even in the Subway, it's part of Transit District 20 rather than District 4. So why wasn't the drawbridge to Roosevelt Island built from Manhattan in the first place? I guess it was built by the same people who connected Rikers Island with Queens rather than the Bronx, which it is part of, despite an East Elmhurst mailing address.
As far as its bridge conection to the rest of the world, Roosevelt Island might as well be part of Queens. The DOT bus route serving it is a Queens route. The NYPD and FDNY have placed it under Queens Boro Commands, even in the Subway, it's part of Transit District 20 rather than District 4. So why wasn't the drawbridge to Roosevelt Island built from Manhattan in the first place?
A bridge from Manhattan would have to have been much longer.
Not to mention that the land on the Manhattan side would be more expensive.
Actually with the apartments on Roosevelt Island the ones facing "the city"are more expensive than the ones facing Queens.
The bridge was built when only lunatics and severly ill people lived on Welfare Island (which it was called until 1972).
The bridge was built when only lunatics and severly ill people lived on Welfare Island
Today they live in the subway.
That must be why the subway was extended to Roosevelt Island.
The fact that Roosevelt Island is served by a Queens bus route is irrelevant. Queens Surfaces' QBX1 operates mostly as a shuttle between the Pelham Bay subway terminal and Co-op City, which of course are entirely within the borough of the Bronx. Why the TA doesn't have its own Bronx-based route to cover this section and have the QBX1 run strictly as a Flushing-Pelham Bay route is a mystery.
Many bus routes go into boroughs other than their 'home' borough, but that's really for Bustalk.
When the drawbridge between Roosevelt Island and Long Island City was built in 1955, there was no place on Manhattan's east side to which a bridge could be built (the shore was completely occupied by the FDR Drive, high-rises and hospitals), whereas there was loads of vacant land on Queens side between the warehouses and Con Ed plant.
While Roosevelt is considered Manhattan by voting, zip code (it's funny to see an address '585 Main Street, New York, New York 10044) and school zoning, it's police and fire service are provided by Queens companies. It's certainly a lot easier to respond to emergencies over a short drawbridge than the roundabout vehicular route required from Manhattan.
According to the Rand McNally Road Atlas, Roosevelt Island is in Manhattan, with the New York/ Queens County line being the Eastern shore of the East River.
Some things come with value, they can be moved, value unchanged.
Time is fleeting, what does the hapless transient do when damage soils his way of passage? Time is lost.
The agency, they provide conveyance. If time is lost, can it be returned? It is not lost forever.
Funding is gone, never returned. but the time, is it returned? The house of the courier, they shall mark the time. The ones on the path where the Jays roost, near the land of the justice of Kings, they shall see the mark of the courier. what path would they take?
One keeps his time, but how?
NOITULOVER EHT NIOJ
Since nobody managed to make sense of my insanity and respond to my message, I'll word it in plain English:
When an unlimited ride card fails, and it is mailed in, how do they give you credit for it? Do they send you an unlimited ride card for a wierd number of days? They don't send a cash refund, and somehow sending a pay-per-ride MC is wrong.
What the hell is wrong with you? (=
Dan
Hey! I was trying a new flavor in posting messages. Maybe instead of making stupid comments you can either
Figure out what it means
Read the explanation
Ignore it.
I could, but I prefer stupid comments.
Dan
Anyone have a refernce to a LIRR Track Map? Thank you.
I do,,,call me at 914 668 9218
--you would have to pick it up
Steve (Mon to Fridays)
Have a look here: http://www.mta.nyc.ny.us/lirr/html/lirrmap.htm
John.
That's a route map. I think what the original poster was looking for was a track map showing all track details such as interlockings, sidings, multiple main tracks, etc.
I have a track map,,given to the students in training
Please contact me direct at 914 668 9218
Steve
I thought about something interesting today. My Favorite Railroad and Subway cars have computers. I really like the R142A, it has a computer. I like both the Genesis GE and the EMD DE30. they also have computers. But just what does the computer do for the Engineer or Motorman?
It replaces older, more unreliable non-solid state equipment.
What do relays, switches and cams do for the engineer or motorman?
Right!! just what you need more useless OVER HIGH TECH junk & crap , more $$%^^&*#!!#%^**** etc...to breakdown!!
@ ( like some of these new automobiles today )
They show the speed, show how much fuel is left, etc.
Having run some of the most modern locomotives I can also tell you that you cut your brake controls in on a computer..no more simple opening and closing air cocks; you set brakes electronically with the simulated sound of air at the console...likewise power. But then even the R44 had that feature years ago.
Adjusting brake pipe pressure for differenet kind of train or terrain,likewise done by the computer.
Speed, amperage, brake line pressures all show up on the screen. I hate it. It was so much simpler to look at gages especially moving at speed.
Oh yes, diagnostics on loco performance and failures also stored on computer. I'm sure there's a lot I omitted.
i dislike computer trains because they have erriors you be
in be danger.
And in be you be illiterate
Not to mention hearing the REAL train instead of some silly sound blaster type immitation ... The EMD's really do insulate you from the rails, n'est ce pas? That's one of the things I *despise* about modern locos ... you might as well be PHONING IN ... much like modern jet fighters ... it's a video game that President Shrub could be working.
Just like a car except complicated.
I would like to point out that many modern airplanes could not operate without their computers. Computers are essential to the safe operation of the Airbus A320, A340, new technology 737, 747-400, 757, 777. The F-22, F-117 and B-2 bombers would crash without computer input - they achieve incredible maneuverability at the cost of instability, which computers then compendate for in real time. Air crews have become adept at using the new "glass cockpits;" I'm sure some of them bitched and moaned about it.
Computers can help train operation a lot - look at what the Japanese do (fuzzy logic, a form of AI, controlling brakes, for example). Train operators are as intelligent and capable as anyone else of "getting over it" and adapting, (and succeeding) to a digital cab.
Fuzzy logic is not a form of AI. Human equivalent would be nervous system to a brain.
Arti
"Fuzzy logic is not a form of AI. Human equivalent would be nervous system to a brain."
Many academics in the field accept fuzzy logic as a form of AI. Incidentally, a "neural net" is considered an AI application as well.
[Many academics in the field accept fuzzy logic as a form of AI. Incidentally, a "neural net" is considered an AI application as well. ]
You have probably misunderstood something. Fuzzy logic is a method to describe non-quantized values. In simpler terms to describe half truths. It can be used more accurately to describe real world situations than pure boolean logic and thus would be a more suitable to implement AI.
Arti
OK-thank you for clarifying. Yes, I agree.
So how would one implement fuzzy logic using modern technology?
Food for thought isn't it?
Arti
computers on trains ?? yea over high tech pile of new junk heaps that keeps on breakin' down !!!!
Even if I agree with you on how you feel about the R142 I can't help wondering why the equally high-tech C44-9w locomotives perform almost flawlessly, at least from my own personal experiences. Not that I liked running a train by a computer screen, I hated it, but they worked.
As I've said previously I wonder why NYCT and to some degree Amtrak get so much troubled equipment. (Not that they're alone but a lot of other systems and foreign rails seem to do OK with high-tech)
that why i don't trust computers!
SUBTALK LIVE THIS EVENING
June 2, 2001
7:30 PM ETBusTalkers are welcome, too!SubTalk live is your chance to hold LIVE chats with other railfans and busfans. All are welcome and encouraged to join us for a fun evening!
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Todd sent this info:
As usual based on from street level, +/- 10feet
Broadway/E NY Complex
A-- 20 feet below
J-- 40 feet above
L-- 80 feet above
Metropolitan/Lorimer
L- 20 feet below
G- 40 feet below
125/Lex
Mezz---- 20 feet below
Uptown-- 35 feet below
Downtown-50 feet below
" . . . . WANTED, Any and all persons interested in STARTING and operating a new line (route) on the New York City Subway.
Please E-mail more info. . . . ."
How about starting the Brooklyn Street Railway Co. (BSR). I propose to use all existing SBK/NYCH and NY&A trackage for passenger service with existing R/T equipment. (We all can dream, now can't we...)
Nah ... if it ain't picks and shovels and DYNAMITE, you ain't gonna drag this sorry arse out of the deep woods to want to earn handles again ... been there, done that, wrecked the anticlimbers. :)
" . . . Like any state run road, the subway system is open to the public for investment; in other words I can buy the coach, the pay the state for the electricity, and the rail use; in effect 'MY RAILROAD' . Think about it a ride from Wall Street,on the #2 or #3 station streight to Howard Beach, or the MetroNorth's Yonkers station; on a car that isn't packed like a sardine can, T.V monitors, phones, snack cars, double-decker odservation cars ect.
My point being why wish, why think like child; ideas like this are the next genoration of mass transit design; the frist steps away from the sterile institution coaches and system . . . . Think about it. . . ."
Please more persuasion.
Arti
. . . This is a repeat of somthing I wrote earlier this week:
As you know New York City has been working on one subway line since the year 1927 and has not completed yet.
That line is 2nd Avenue subway. As you may or may not have known New York City subway was once privately owned and developed, but after the ' Great Depression ' and during World War II the subway fell under city and state control.
In the face of rising inflation, in relationship to the need to conserve energy within the New York City Power Pool; private individuals and companies have golden opportunity for investment and the planning , and development of the 2nd Avenue subway. With growing uncertainty in stocks, in the fluctuation of projected profits in technologies issues on the Commodities Exchange a golden opportunity is at hand to take control of certain aspects of the development of the 2nd Avenue subway to improve the mass transit intrastructure of the city of New York and for the gains of municipal improvement, environmental conservation and capital investment in a new railroad.
In the past 25 years new technologies and mass transportation has arisen the New York City transit authority, and the Metropolitan Transit Authority has clearly not taken advantage of; but for what ever reason the New York City Transit Authority like any other state-run institution operates with the gradation of a state-run institution. What 2nd Avenue subway needs a new and innovative ideas from the private sector.
I'm looking for interested parties, persons or companies would be interested in participating in planning and investing of the 2nd Avenue subway, and ultimately the 2nd Avenue Railroad Company to build; (promised in 1967) the Co-Op City line, the return of the 3rd Avenue 'El' in the Bronx, and an innovation of the 9th Avenue 'El' to serve the North Bronx from the Polo grounds.
[I'm looking for interested parties, persons or companies would be interested in participating in planning and investing of the 2nd Avenue subway, and ultimately the 2nd Avenue Railroad Company to build; (promised in 1967) the Co-Op City line, the return of the 3rd Avenue 'El' in the Bronx, and an innovation of the 9th Avenue 'El' to serve the North Bronx from the Polo grounds. ]
You do have some numbers to back up these claims, I hope?
Arti
To All Subtalkers,
Just wanted to let you know that I will be out west most of the summer, so you probably won't see me posting here much until mid to late August. I hope that all of you have a delightful summer, and when I return I'll hopefully have stories from riding the Cable Cars, Muni and B.A.R.T...since I will be in northern California.
Happy Summer,
Nick
Bring plenty of candles and enjoy the sea breeze.
thanks...will do! -Nick
If you in the harbor under the Golden Gate Bridge. I heard that SEELS live there. SO why don't you take a seel and swim with it.
Have a good time over there. And make shure to bring back photos for everyone at Subtalk.
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I got stuck outside of 110 street on the express track on the Lex. 1 hour! R-142 got messed up big time. Finally, we made it to 125th. I don't know what happened. I think the breaks went into emergency and they had to take some cars out. Anyone else on it? Happened about 5:00PM.
Would that make it a Kawasaki or Bombardier ?
I think the Kawasaki units are on Lex. (I'm not exactly sure). However, if it was the brakes going into emergency, it could have been a cord pulled, or an 'obstruction' on the tracks. Or, it could have been another problem in the testing of the R-142's. But weren't the bombardier cars the ones with the problems?
Sounds like an R142 to me.
...Squeaky, Whistling Brakes, anyone??
Yeah, from what I know our almighty saviors, The Redbirds, have them.
brand new JUNK & it breaks down worse ! he he he ...
yawn....
give it up man. its over. (always act like the redbirds ain't crap either) redbirds are leaving. problems aren't gonna stop them now.
they will be around long enough for me to ge some good videos of them this fall !!! LOL !!! he he he he !!
of course this fall but they will start to leave starting the fall. and after a while you will put the new york city transit system on you list of most disliked subway systems. thats if you have such a list.
unless i can maintain a list of motormen who will allow mw to shoot thru the railfan window inside the cab like i did last year
on the # 6 !! a tranjsverse cab ( ugh! ) r 62 !! .........................................................................................!!!
Dont worry my videos will be transfered to the new DVD format and remain a permanent place in history !!!
I we will be there for the 2004 100 year celebration for sure !! & hopefully on a museum train ( shooting on video again )
LOL ....... he he he he he he
unless i can maintain a list of motormen who will allow me to shoot thru the railfan window inside the cab like i did last year
on the # 6 !! a tranjsverse cab ( ugh! ) r 62 !! .........................................................................................!!!
Dont worry my videos will be transfered to the new DVD format and remain a permanent place in history !!!
I we will be there for the 2004 100 year celebration for sure !! & hopefully on a museum train ( shooting on video again )
LOL ....... he he he he he he
Sure, they were on my Manhattan-bound Redbird 2 train Saturday afternoon!
if it is on the lexington ave. line, it is the Kawasaki's. the Bombardier R-142 are running on the 7th ave. line.
So You where on that R142A. The train was the 4:46 Brooklyn Bridge to Pelham the train had a Brake pipe rupture. I was operating the No.6 behind it and was turned back for downtown service.
Because of that 142A there was no uptown service on the Lex line from 86 Street to 149 GC on the No.4,5 and to 3Ave on the No.6.
Now back to the brake pipe rupture. The T/O had to await supervision and the train had to do other then head car operation meaning operating from the 6th car.
That happens on Redbirds too. Once I was waiting on a 7 express in the afternoon at Times Square when it was taken out of service due to a brake rupture. With one of the two tracks at TS out, 7 train service got bottlenecked pretty fast.
What causes brake pipe ruptures ?
Excessive lifting by the back instead of the legs. Sorry, just couldn't help myself there. Generally it's caused by bad fittings or clamps on the connectors, worn hoses or knicks on the pipes ...
On new equipment? How about lack of QC at the factory?
New pipe can have gouges in it too. Could be poor work, could have been a single piece of gravel kicked up from the tracks and landing just right. Spit happens too. :)
So that's why I couldn't get any uptown service from Grand Central Saturday! I went there to see if I could catch a ride on the R142A. When I saw a 4 train on the uptown express track and a 6 train on the uptown local track not moving for almost twenty minutes, I knew something was wrong further up the line. But if the problem was on the 6 line, why were 4 and 5 trains suspended from 86th St to Grand Concourse? If anything, other 6 trains could have been rerouted to the express track to get around that unfortunate R142A.
I ended up getting over to the west side to take the 2 home. I caught an R142 on the 2. It ran fine, automated announcements and all. Everything was fine there, except for a G.O. that had uptown 1 trains running express from Penn Station to 96th St and downtown 2 and 3 trains running local from 96th to Penn.
There was a G.O on the Uptown local track and all No.4,5,6 trains where running Express from Grand Central to 125. So the R142A was blocking the only uptown track in service.
That R142A had a brake pipe rupture. That was the cause of the whole fiasco.
My dislike of the R142's is well documented. Not only are the unreliable, but devoid of any style as well. Its like riding inside a hospital room.
I agree.
As i said in an earlier post, from a business point of view, the R142 equipment is good for the TA. Their business is moving people, and the majority of the riding public will like the new stuff.
From a railfan point of view the new equipment is totally uninteresting. All of the 'R' equipment was very distinctly New York. All of the Low-V and the like were classics. Too bad they had to go...
Pretty much sums up the way I feel about R68's. Lousy from a railfan point of view, good from a regular passengers point of view.
However I do think an R142 would beat an R68 in a race.
Sir, can you name some cars which were reliable when new?
The R-32.
I'm not sure who built the one I was on. I think it was a R-142A. It was on the 6 line. I don't think it was just a pulled cord or an emergency braking because they had to call car knockers in. JUST REBUILD THE REDBIRDS AGAIN! THEY ARE GOD!
>>JUST REBUILD THE REDBIRDS AGAIN! THEY ARE GOD!<<
It would be a waste of money to build new trucks, new car bodies new wires, wait, that'd be a whole new car!
>....wait, that'd be a whole new car!
a WHOLE NEW CAR.... with a tried-and-proven
longer lifespan than x number of trial runs...
>>>a WHOLE NEW CAR.... with a tried-and-proven
longer lifespan than x number of trial runs...<<<
A WHOLE NEW CAR....with no A/C, rust out the ass, and dangerous corrosion! You're right, let's get rid of those R142S! If we can keep these Redbirds around long enough, we'll be able to have the Railfan Window and the Railfan "Hole in the Floor" for that coveted "looking at the track as you wait for someone to clean up the dead body that fell through the corroded wall" view.
I'am sure by now the TA is sorry to have accepted those R-142's.
Knowing how contracts work, I'd be willing to bet that the "acceptance" part hasn't happened yet and after the contractors finish scrambling, they'll be just as OK as the 44's and 46's eventually became years after initial delivery. The 44's and 46's did contribute to putting both of those manufacturers out of business thus I would expect Bombasaki to both get both of their acts together quickly.
Built into the contract are factors like MDBF before the warantee period starts I believe. I don't think they have met any of those goals yet and the cars still "belong" to the manufacture.
They can keep the dam cars!
>>They can keep the dam cars!<<
Yes. While the redbirds carbodies continue to rot. No matter how much rebuilding you do, Deterioration of carbodies is something that a general overhaul cannot fix.
Now then, since we must get rid of those redbirds, we might as well make an advancement.
The R142 test trucks that were installed on the R110B had some problems a year ago. I think "Bomb"bardier paid off someone to accept these inferior trucks. The Kawasaki trucks don't use the same Chevron springs as the "Bombs". The Kawasaki's are better cars overall.
Don't forget that former MTA Chairman Peter Stangl left the MTA some years ago and took a job with BOMBardier. Need I say more?
Hmmmmmm!
About a year ago Bombardier (Bomb) installed test trucks on the two trailer cars of the R110B. There were some problems with them. Bomb probibaly paid someone off to use these trucks on the R142. The problem is in the Chevron springs on these trucks causing the tread brake units to inaccurately determine the brake shoe to wheel distance, thus causing a poor braking train and premature brake shoe wear. The Kawasaki trucks do not have this problem.
Hey! How about we rebuild a fleet of redbirds to replace the redbirds! But this time, to keep them from rusting, we use stainless steel. And maybe we can put some digital destination signs like on the R44 and R46 so we can change them easily. Maybe we can top it off with an A/C included when manufactured. Wait, and to make everything simpler, we'll consolidate nearly all controls into 1 screen into the cabs. And maybe we can make some additional interior signs so people can tell the time. And don't you just hate those godawful conductors who you never hear? Maybe we put some automated announcements too. Those seats not really comfortable on the redbirds? Well, maybe we can use some more curved seats on them. What do you think?
That's basically an R62, which is what they should have gotton.
An R-62 with more comfortable seats than a redbird, a screen in the cab and digital signs and automated announcements?
What have you been smoking?
Screw that! Where can the rest of us get some? Heh.
>>>JUST REBUILD THE REDBIRDS AGAIN! THEY ARE GOD!<<<
So THAT's what I've been going to church to worship all of these years! How could I be so foolish!? I thought that perhaps I was worshiping some all mighty diety with everlasting love. But silly me, I've actually been worshipping a 1960s era subway car! So that's why they've been on the 7 line all this time, perhaps to pay homage to car 9345's creation of the world in 7 days!
So tell me pastor, how are the almighty planning to deal with Their rust problem, retirement, and subsequent sinking into the sea to rust away as a marine life reef? Perhaps the smiting of certain shortsighted TA officials and us in the general public who would even DARE to want new, technologically advanced subway cars! With this new revelation, it looks like I'm destined for hell now. How will I ever get along down there with A/C subway cars and such?!
REDBIRDS, WHY HAS THOU FORSAKEN ME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
It doesn't even matter that it was an R-142. REPULSIVE RUSTBIRDS also have brake lines, and ones that are more worn and more likely to rupture anyway.
You picked the wrong item to complain about the R-142s. You also used two font tags when you could have used one.
My Sources tell me that they are having problems with the south side of the Manny B. Not to mention they must run test trains and probably some school cars before full force commences
Who would be your sources? They're putting guardrails onto the sides of the tracks now. They grafitti has been painted over. They're finishing the passenger walkway. I saw a work motor on the Manhattan-bound side a few weeks ago. They have to run route familiarization course. I'm guessing most T/O don't have a clue what that looks like and how it is. They did the same for the 63 Street connector. How long did that take?
Is there express service on Saturdays ?
Bill "Newkirk"
I don't think so.
The Ridge Ave spur runs express under Broad Street, but all the non-Ridge Broad Street trains are locals on Saturdays.
SEPTA Saturday timetable
There is no regular express service on Saturdays or Sundays, but there is express service usually after an event at The Sports complex e.g. a baseball, football, basketball, hockey game, or a concert (and that is when you'll see an express on the line other than M-F from 5:00am to 6:30pm).
Special Event trains (blue marker light) are even better than expresses because they don't terminate at Walnut/Locust. They run all the way express to Pattison and it's a blast. This Sunday there will be game 7 of the Sixers playoffs and you can bet that they'll be running express trains. Furthermore, I have seen/heard SEPTA ads on TV/radio urging people to take the BSS to various events. The just is throk in a token and 10 minutes later you're at the game.
That's a great service.
Could the "4" train run a super-express using the middle track to Yankee Stadium on game days (in addition to the locals)?
[Could the "4" train run a super-express using the middle track to Yankee Stadium on game days (in addition to the locals)? ]
Super exp from where? From the City? Skipping 2 stops and requiring to build 4 switches?
Arti
Why was the R4 line skipped ?
What line would it have been ?
Bill "Newkirk"
The R-4 would have been The Bethlehem branch on The Reading side. I would not know the Pennsy portion of the line would be.
There is service proposed to Bethlehem - so if it happens it will be the R4...
On the Pensy side the line could go to Pennshauken/Cherry Hill. The line used to be electrified to Pavonia yard and there are catenary hangers to at least Rt. 130. That's where I always saw the R4 going.
i think in the 70's or 80's they discontinue r4.i think it
use run around west chester.paoli
The R4 never existed! Also, there has never been a rail connection from the unused R3 West Chester stop to the R5 Paoli stop for there are no tracks!
R4 was a service that was planned as a Chestnut Hill West-Media/West Chester line. There had been some talk of connecting CH West to the R6 Norristown line where they run side by side north of North Phila/North Broad. This would get CH West off the Amtrak Corridor and therefore remove delays to the line, since outbounds must cross over to the inbound 'local' track to branch off at North Phila, requiring considerable 'against the grain' reverse moves. CH West also gets delayed by Amtrak dispatchers who give Amtrak trains priority and delay CH West.
The connection between CH West and Norristown would put CH West trains on the ex-Reading trunk, bypassing 'little' North Phila and coming through Center City on the 'Reading' side. This would allow them to go out on R3 (at the time, R1 was Airport-West Trenton).
Under this scenario, R4 would connect R8 Fox Chase (disconnected from R8 CH West since both would be on the Reading side) with trains originating/terminating at Bryn Mawr on R5 Paoli (before the Tunnel, Paoli service basically ran 15-minute service with Paoli trains on 1/2 hour headways making only selected stops below Bryn Mawr, and Bryn Mawr locals on 1/2 hour headways making all local stops from there in). The R4 Bryn Mawr service would have preserved this. Thus, the R4 would be Bryn Mawr-Fox Chase and R3 would be Media/Elwyn (West Chester)-Chestnut Hill West. R8 would be redundant.
There has been no recent talk about the CH West-Norristown connection, although it would still make lots of sense.
That is a pretty good plan. It all boils down to $$$. SEPTA has a lot less of it than MTA does.
Surprisingly the connection would not be that expensive and, keeping in mind the cost of delays and the operational headaches of R8 on the Amtrak Corridor, it would probably be well worth the cost. But, as you can guess, we're dealing with SEPTA.
Also, there has never been a rail connection from the unused R3 West Chester stop to the R5 Paoli stop for there are no tracks!
There used to be connecting racks until fairly recently and they could be easily re-installed.
There was such a track but it was never electrified and, to the best of my knowledge, it didn't serve any passenger traffic.
The track was a tunnel that ran from the Maryland Div. line to a connection w/ Paoli line. It was electrified.
Do you mean that it ran in a tunnel? My recollection of it was that it was almost entirely at grade. I don't recall seeing anything about this line being electrified. Can you expand on this?
Since life-threatening events can and do occur on the subway, perhaps some thought should be given to providing automated defibrillators to conductors or T/o's to use. If someone suffers a heart attack on a train, such a device can automatically evaluate a rhythm and "shock" the victim, possibly saving a life. They are in use with "first responders" like police and firefighters; airline flight attendants have been trained to use them. They can be set up quickly and activated quickly.
They do cost money, however, so there is a cost/ benefit question.
But since, if you go into full cardiac arrest, the brain dies in under four minutes, the faster the victim can get help, the better. I respect (and have cooperated with) EMS crews, but they can't be everywhere in four minutes.
Something to think about...
This is contrary to current TA policy and from the reaction of customers to a sick fellow passenger, not what the public wants. The TA has begun a program of placing medical personnel strategically around the system. Perhaps we could expand on this and put a unit in every token booth. If a customer falls ill we can pull 'em off the train and zap 'em right on the platform.
"This is contrary to current TA policy and from the reaction of customers to a sick fellow passenger, not what the public wants. The TA has begun a program of placing medical personnel strategically around the system. Perhaps we could expand on this and put a unit in every token booth. If a customer falls ill we can pull 'em off the train and zap 'em right on the platform."
The TA's experiment sounds like it could work well.
I have personally been involved in helping stricken passengers on mass transit at least four times and have witnessed great compassion and caring among bystanders for these victims. If case being referred to saw revulsion or disgust as the primary public reaction (I may be misreading this; feel free to correct me), this should not be interpreted as the rule.
I have had to use my alarm to call for help for a sick customer several times. Of course, to call for help we have to stop waiting on customers and deal with the emergency. I have had to tell the line that they have to wait and yes they did cuss me out.
What matters to many customers is getting their token (or card) when they want it and to blazes with anyone or anything else.
Usually if there is a machine we tell them to use the machine. As soon as the immediate call for help is placed we resume window service until help arrives and then we again suspend window service and obtain information as to the sick customer's name, age, address, nature of problem, police badge number, EMS badge number, name of hospital, time of EMS and Police response as well as the case number (CN#). This info will be asked of us by supervision which will not be far behind.If any information is refused we tell that to supervision also. Often times, supervisor phones us before help even arrives.
As far as having defibirillators in booths. I could see it now-- while we were helping a customer someone would complain that we were ignoring them. We are trained not to leave the booth "because it could be a trap.[while one pretends to be in need of help, their accomplice would rob the booth or hurt us.]"
To answer another question- if we are robbed, we must pay back the money that was taken and we can lose our job if we did not act in good judgment. Even if we dont have to repay the money we would be suspended without pay until a hearing was held.
You have a tough job. The TA is right about the fact that you could be hurt leaving the booth. You have a lot of cash in the booth, and a lot of tokens, which are so ubiquitous that merchants often take them for payment instead of money. That's very tempting for crooks.
It saddens me that someone would cuss you out when you try to help someone who's sick. I know it happens. Of course, when it's his or her turn to be sick one day, of course everyone is supposed to be sympathetic...
It is even worse in the jail where I work at. Someone could be bleeding to death and the other goons will shout that they are tired of waiting. The idea of defibrillators on trains is good in theory, but unless proper training of staff and strategic placement of equipment can be established, I foresee problems,especially during rush hour.
Another problem time would be after midnight on an infrequently used line like the G or the L or the N in Brooklyn. A victim who collapses in a station on one of those lines will need the same amount of care as someone who falls in Midtown Manhattan. The main problem with heart disease is that it can strike without warning.
The important thing for rescuers who want a good outcome is to be prepared.
I agree with you - there are some challenges involved in making this work.
I can recall, during my EMT training, that I was taught even in relatively well controlled situations you can run into problems. Easiest example: A woman is down, and EMS removes some clothing to facilitate CPR. The rescuer working on her has a uniform on, a shirt that clearly says "EMT" or "POLICE" and there are other personnel there - but some idiot takes exception to that and begins interfering with the protocol, or becoming violent because he misunderstands what's going on.
Training, practice, rehearsal, more practice - those are key. Subway people can do it, but MTA will haveto apply "do-able" protocols and be ready to back up its people when they follow them.
You are right, and somehow the suit and tie crowd down at MTA headquarters must be brought to realize all the particulars involved in training the staff, communicating with EMS, police and other agencies, carrying out the work, and the problems and pitfalls that the poor guy in the field can encounter. If they go into this without a clear grasp of these things, the result will be terrible.
As far as having defibirillators in booths. I could see it now-- while we were helping a customer someone would complain that we were ignoring them. We are trained not to leave the booth "because it could be a trap.[while one pretends to be in need of help, their accomplice would rob the booth or hurt us.]"
Only a bureaucracy like the TA could come up with such an idiotic rule. Obviously, they consider the fairly small amount of money that's found in a token booth (which could be made inaccessable to thieves with drop safes, like you'll find in your neighborhood 7-11) to be much more important than someone's life. Sure, maybe the person who's collapsed in front of the booth is part of a ruse to lure out the clerk. But so what??? Let the thieves take the money - for Chrissakes, the TA's a big money loser at the best of times - if there's a chance that someone's life can be saved.
The T.A. does not care about the money- **we** have to pay back the money if we are robbed or if we give a customer tioo much change or if we accept a $10 and the customer wants $20.
While I am not at liberty to reveal how much money is in a booth. it is not a small amount. I am not saying how many are in a bag, but just one bag of tokens is alot of money. Some booths also have pre-encoded MetroCards for use when the computer is out.
Station Supervisors do routine booth audits where they convert all items in the booth to cash (for accounting purposes only) and when I had my first booth audit it surprised me when I saw what we had in that booth.
The rule is not stupid- if we get hurt then they'd have to pay us worker's compensation and if we are killed then they'd have to pay our beneficiary. We are of no use to Transit if we are dead.
>>> **we** have to pay back the money if we are robbed or if we give a customer tioo much change <<<
I can understand being responsible for a small shortage due to a mistake in making change, but it is hard to believe that you are held personally responsible for money lost to a robbery. Not even armored car guards a held personally responsible for such a loss. Where is your union?
>>> The rule is not stupid- if we get hurt then they'd have to pay us worker's compensation and if we are killed then they'd have to pay our beneficiary <<<
The TA is apparently not worried about paying worker's compensation or death benefits since the personal loss of money stolen would encourage booth personnel to resist any robbery. Banks and most businesses take the opposite tack and tell their employees to cooperate and get the robbers off the property as fast as possible. 7-11 even fired a clerk who overpowered an armed robber and held him for the police.
Tom
We are taught to give them what they want but we do have to repay!
"7-11 even fired a clerk who overpowered an armed robber and held him for the police."
Iunderstand why 7-11 did that, but I would not have fired the clerk. It's one thing to tell people not to risk their lives unnecessarily; it's unethical to demand that an employee not do what he/she thinks is necessary to save a life.
>>> it's unethical to demand that an employee not do what he/she thinks is necessary to save a life. <<<
The incident was the subject of a story on one of the TV news magazines, and a fellow employee who was in the store at the time was interviewed. She agreed with the company's action, and stated that much of the time the employee and robber were struggling, the gun was pointed at her in the confined area behind the counter, and she felt sure she would be killed.
Tom
The woman has a right to feel that way (the gun was pointed at her). However, we know, unfortunately, that there are no guarantees the robber wouldn't have shot them anyway. Was he esp. nervous on the trigger. Did the first employee sense that, and would that explain his resistance to the robbery?
On the other hand, if that employee was a Cowboy type anyway, then this might have been one more example of bad judgment.
I am AED certified. The course takes aproximately 6 hours and covers CPR/Rescue Breathing as well as the use of the AED machine. The machine has an electronic voice which tells you what to do step by step. The patient's heart rhythm is anylized. If Ventricular Fibrilation is detected, the machine shocks the patient, then reanylizes the patient. and reshocks if VF is still happening. If there is no VF, The rescuer is told to use CPR to keep the unconcious patient going until EMT's arrive. These machines cost @$3.000.00 so security is a concern but the AED is a proven lifesaver. A way should be found to equip MTA facilities with AED's.
I congratulate you, sir! You put in the effort to be a real asset to a member of the public who is in danger. People like you can make a real difference!
>>> Perhaps we could expand on this and put a unit in every token booth <<<
With the direction the TA is going with closing token booths, that might not be so helpful. A better distribution would be to have each C/R pick up a sealed unit when going on duty with a train that has been laid up, transfering the unit to any replacement C/R who relieves him while the train is active, and the final C/R who is aboard when the train is laid up is responsible to return the sealed unit to the dispatcher. Since any given C/R is unlikely to use the device on a run, this would be the simplest way to keep the units available but in good condition. Whenever the seal was broken for use of the unit there would be some kind of incident report, and the unit would be checked for proper operation before being resealed. Also C/Rs would have to be trained in the use of the units. I assume C/Rs now receive training in first aid and CPR.
Obviously some sort of regular maintenance checks would have to be done on the units at a fixed interval of time to make sure they are ready for use, and a system for tracking who was responsible for the units when they were in the field would be needed.
Tom
Today (6/2/01) the Metrocard Show was held in Manhattan. This is the first one I didn't attend, but chose to attend a bus ERA bus trip to Philly and view the new South Jersey Light Rail project.
DID I MISS ANYTHING !
I probably missed the usual Metrocards for sale that I already have. But most important, the rare ones I don't have at impossible inflated prices. All in a dimly lit smelly old building.
Anybody attend ?
Bill "Newkirk"
I didn't go either, but was there for previous one.
The problem right now is that no new cards are coming out ... why,
the TA is selling so many Unlimited cards and folks are discarding vs. re-filling cards at such a rate that they ran out of seriel numbers for the cars, i.e. the number has to stay active in the system for a long time (buy a value card, the card "expires" in 12 months AND the customer has another year to turn it in & move the money to another card). So they are losing the grahics money from the sale of space on the back of the card because of there lack of forsight & the success of the MC.
Now if they offered customers one free ride if they re-filled a value card with at least $30 ... or alowed a unlimited card to be re-filled as the same type & gave you some reason to do that, e.g. $16 for a $17 weekly ... nah that's too hard for the folks on the 13th floor of Jay Street.
Disclaimer: I don't work for the MTA, TA or nycDOT, and am speaking for myself vs. my employeer.
Mr t__:^)
Today must have been my luck day. The only train I didn't ride nor work on was the Bombardier R142 until today. I came to work at 241 Street around 9:30AM ofcause the terminal was filled with Redbirds so I asked the T.S.S if there where any R142's on the road. He said there where 4 trains running. Now the last redbird pulls out and the R142 comes in for my run. I had very little problems with the train. The only thing that happened was the computer jumped back to Neried Ave at E180 but I quickly overcame the problem. The train made it to Flatbush on time. Its funny the car No. to my first Bombardier train was 6305. Now for the trip uptown I got another R142 CAR 6426 AND it worked great. The last trip I had the same train both ways 6411-6420. When I got to Flatbush I was told to keep the same train and go one ahead because the Crew for that run did not want the train. I was more then happy to stay on the train.
I also learned more about the train on how the computer works. Also on Friday I had the R142A Kawaski for 2 trips. Its stange to work a redbird line without a redbird but I really do not mind at all.
[I was told to keep the same train and go one ahead because the Crew for that run did not want the train. ]
It looks like some T/Os don't like those trains, why is that?
Arti
I hope you had fun. I got to operate the R142 one time before they were taken out of service. Never operated the R142a except for R142a training. Most T/O and C/R are not to fond of them but it is something that they have to get used to. Im pretty sure that the TSS that is on board provides them with helpful info.
http://abpr.railfan.net/july98/07-30-98/nycta3302oncatbeach90st4-3-87eo.jpg what car type? sorry copy and paste, not proficient in HTML
That's an easy one!
It is a beloved R-10!
I was thinking that as well, o thank you gods of subtalk and railfanning, looks great doesnt it? (not really, pretty bad graffiti, rusting to death) but much less boring then what cars look like now.
Do you have any idea what year the picture was taken?
I left NY in 1957 so I completely missed the grafitti period.
I probably rode on that very car in the 1950's
yea that picture is 1987
Thank You!
I'm not a bit sorry that I missed that period of time in NY transit history, although with all of the pictures that I have seen, I guess I really didn't!
Consider yourself lucky that you missed it. That was a very depressing period. Every car in the system looked essentially like that. Eeeeewwwwwww!!!!
I saw so many pictures that it was like being there!
While you might consider it depressing, it is depressing to see boring masses of steel just roll on by, I want to see the good 'ol days of real Murals. The culture.
It can be deduced from the URL:
http://abpr.railfan.net/july98/07-30-98/nycta3302oncatbeach90st4-3-87eo.jpg
April 3, 1987 at Beach 90th Street.
The train is bound for Rockaway Park (this is obviously the rear of the train, facing Bedford Park Blvd).
All Aboard the Grafitti train!
OH GOD YESSSS, "those were the daaaaaaaaaaaaayyyyysss"
I thought all remaining R10 by that date were th4 Pullman green variety. Guess I was wrong. Looks awful but I bet under that coat of many colors beats a still-strong heart. The R10s - sorely missed.
wayne
>>...The R10s - sorely missed....<<
What is this? Why does everybody miss the R-10s so much? They might have been a little faster than what we have today, but so was an R-32 back then, everything back then was a little faster. They were loud cars from what I understand, and I can only ever remeber seeing one: On the C line during the evening rush at 155th st.
Maybe you had to ride one to 'feel the magic', but I certainly don't see the big fuss over them.
Hate to say it but I hated them and the cousin R12/14 too. I'd as soon have an R17,21, thru 33/36 any day or the B div. types as well. The R10 was a good running train when they were good but I couldn't stand the noise or their ambience..to me it was a very depressing interior.But then the R38 was awfully noisy too, maybe they corrected that in GOH.Strangely with doors and windows shut the R10 were quiet enough but otherwise...ouch.
OTOH given my druthers I'd have taken an R1-9, High-V, low-V, etc.
Three words: sheer brute speed. The CPW dash on a train of those immortal Thunderbirds was second to none. They were tailor-made for the A, and whoever made the decision to assign them there deserves a medal.
This pic was taken on 4/3/87, and it's in the R10 roster page of this website. That was probably one of the last remaining non-overhauled R10's running in the system. I personally never saw one after 3/87 anyway.
That shot at http://abpr.railfan.net/july98/07-30-98/nycta3302oncatbeach90st4-3-87eo.jpg is one haggard looking beloved. And in that stupid "war between the states" paint scheme too. Hate to say it, but the graffiti HELPS ... could have used some fresh spray paint tho'.
It's a shame to see once proud cars looking THAT horrendous.
Oh man is that ever funny, anyone notice how graffiti became less and less artistic towards the mid 80s? towards the "clean car movement of 1989?" no longer the proud whole car movements of Tracy168s wild style or Lee's and Cliffs outrageous art on wheels. I better not start this, not here, not again
Nah, not here, not now ... but yes, SOME of it was truly art and made some mighty dingy cars look better. I didn't think much of the idiots who would just spray their names though. Taki183 and Dondi being the first have historic value of course, but I didn't think much of most tagging, especially the magic marker variety.
But the "jungle train," one that depicted Tina Turner and some other almost Ben and Jerry's kinda scenery *were* ART ... and I'd take that over the "war between the states" paint job any day. But it's still a criminal act any way you slice it, yada yada ... standard disclaimers apply.
agreed, what angers me is the MTA nor the City acknoweledges it, positive or NEGATIVE, i'd be so cool if they F*** up a car and put it in court st. and say something like, "oh look at what we came out of and what we are today" some SH** like that. At least the movement would be acknoweledged officially. Then again that would start a whole new argument amongst people who'll say "oh why is it necessarily negative" blah blah blah blah blah Im starting to go on and on.
It's an argument you can't win ... as you've heard way too many times here, modern society is not going to "celebrate crime" any more than they're going to celebrate Abbie Hoffman's little ditty that must have cost plenty to taxpayers for law enforcement's time and overtime in response to a threat that wasn't practical or possible. Still, they had to roll the trucks. I thought it was funny as hell at the time. But we all do eventually grow up and look at it again from a different perspective at a different time.
However, whether anyone WANTS it to be so or not, history WILL record the grafitti wave down the road. And if places like Phun factory (izzat the name) and others "off broadway" gallery it, it'll get into the history books ... but most folks will look at it as crime just as surely as if a squeegie guy walked up to your car with s spray can and did your windshield ... ain't fun on the receiving end of it.
(lecture mode off, don't mind me)
I miss squeegie people, Phun Phactory, two PHs, Yea I gues you are right.
Word. There's so many things in life that are just best held for 30 or so years ... suddenly they interest folks on subtalk as pure NOSTALGIA even if they sucked dead donkey lung on the D train at the time when you were stepping in it. What can I say? :)
Nostalgia is a pretty pathetic disease, nonetheless i am striken with it
Heh. Just watch out for that TRrreeeeeeeee ...
Let's see, how many members does the R-10 fan club have now? Yourself, myself, Wayne, and Mister R-10, William Padron, to name a few.
They were OK in my book too ... it's just that I worked for their parents. Heh.
I think the closest car in the picture was one of those sent over to the BMT in 1954 for familiarization for the R-16's.
The numbers for those cars are listed in Gene Sansone's book. I will have to look it up.
The photo of that train is a R-10 on (C). And it looks NASTY with mess up paint job and rusting on the car body.
When was the last run of the r7? On what line was it?
If you're speaking of the IND R7 (one of the R1-9 group) the last run was sometime in March l977...a J train out of 168 St-Jamaica to Broad and then light to Coney Island yard and railcar Valhalla.
It wouldn't have been a solid train of R7 though, be a mix or R7, 7a, and 9 and probably an R4 and/or R6. There was one R1 that survived until the end, l768 I believe, renumbered of course from original #.
Unfortunately I don't know what cars were in that last train.
The last lines to have these cars in regular service were the J and the L.[then the LL]
I thought the R6 and below were on the IND until the end, and the last two runs were simultaneously on the LL and GG.
The prewar R fleet went to East New York as well.
At the very end a handful of R-6 and R-7 went out to Eastern Division to fill in attrition gaps. One such bird was R-7 #1391.
wayne
Most of the R7 and all R7a and R9 were on the Eastern at the time the KK service was started. Then the lowest number IIRC 1400-1440 or 1450 were transferred from the IND; and in small increments, about 10 at a time the R6's went to the Eastern....down to about 1360 beginning with the 1390's, then 1380's etc. But yes, most R6 remained on IND.
Some of the surviving cars at the end were actually R4's that were renumbered from the 400-899 group and one last R1 as well, l768, had been renumbered twice.
Somewhere I have a story on that last R9 run, in my archives. Wish I were the motorman on it.
Did these 13xx R-6's ever get their roll sign extended for the BMT Eastern Division ?
I'm sure they did..believe it or not I don't remember but I'd swear they did if for no other reason the passengers would have to know which train it is.
They weren't roll sign extensions; the R1-9 Eastern sign set was all new; even the script was a little different even if plain straight lettering as the original rolls.
Were these new rollsigns only for the Eastern Division routes ?
Yes. Eastern only. Just for a little added trivia they never had END destination signs made up for the R1-9 types on the Eastern...only route signs (rollers).The original rolls were left in on the destination half and left showing white if I remember.
Yes, that is correct. The bulkhead destination curtains were cranked all the way to one end and had the white portion showing. Occasionally, you'd find a train with a destination sign showing, such as "Coney Island" on a QJ or the "168th St." portion of the "Wash. Hts-168 St." sign showing. I never saw one like that, though. I wonder why they simply didn't remove them or install multicolored curtains found on the R-16s, R-32s, and R-38s.
They also received new side curtains. Unlike the original IND roller curtains, these didn't have cutouts on the ends to facilitate light bulb installation. The bulbs in the signboxes were removed and that feature was not used. I have one Eastern Division curtain which is grafted onto the end of an old R-1 BMT side curtain. It has all northern Southern Division terminals.
There were no subscripts on those end curtains, either. When the QJ became the J, they simply covered the Q with black tape.
The last revenue run was on March 31, 1977.
J line, March 1977. T'was the end for all pre-war IND cars.
I would like to ANNOUNCE our new website - The NEW YORK CITY MODEL TRANSIT SYSTEM O-Scale EL & TROLLEY
Exhibit based on New York City Transit circa 1940 to 1970 - this is not a toy train layout - this is Museum-Caliber Transit modeling, featuring all-"EL"
structure, surrounding cityscape, IRT,BMT, (& NYCTA)
el and subway passenger & work cars; streetcars and busses (and autos) so please view our website and let us know your comments via our email address
and let us know of your interest in this form of New
York Rapid Transit Historic Representation. The
operating exhibit is 50' x 8' and comprises 150+
transit vehicles - all having FULL Interiors!
Our WEBSITE address is-----
http://community.webtv.net/nycmodeltransit/
NYCModelTransitEL
Our e-mail address is posted on the website.
(Check It Out!!---More descriptives on website)
Thanks guys - Joseph Frank
Nice site, Joe...
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Wow! I have a great deal of admiration for those who have the skill and patience to construct such detailed layouts.
BTW: Those are the best-looking Redbirds I have seen in a while. Do you think the TA would be interested? :-) Steps back smartly from the can of worms that has just been opened…
I *must* admit, when I saw "webTV" I was uncompelled owing to Microsoft's penchant for "while you're looking at OUR intellectual property and using it, you certainly won't mind if we look over the contents of your computer while you're busy looking" but I'm *GLAD* the other posts here compelled me to do it anyway ...
NICE PHUGGING LAYOUT!!!
Oh, sure hope "bigedirtmanel" goes and checks this out too ... it's like the glory days of Webster Avenue and what once dwelt in Manhattan before we sold it to the Nips.
If you HAVEN'T checked it out, screw this noise here - go check out (properly functioning URL) ...
http://community.webtv.net/nycmodeltransit/NYCModelTransitEL ... this site is "two thumbs up" and no wiseacres, please. REALLY worth the trip ...
Wow! Great work. Very beautiful.
Wonderful reproductions! I am involved with the BRMRRC, the Bay Ridge Model Railroad Club, Oliver Street and Marine Avenue, Bay Ridge, we have several O layouts dating to 1946, with ATC via voltage regulation.
Where is your layout?? Are vistors allowed???
What a great layout,i take it that all the trains were scratch built or converted lionel stock ? the workmanship seems to be very high. many years ago when i was living in Ridgewood,there was an old man who lived several houses down from me as my parents knew him he had the most detailed o scale model traction layout i've seen,he had some el, a surface line interubans i think and a strech of a subway along the edge of the layout,it took up most of the basement,it took several years of him desiging a signal system then he built the layout he used o scale passenger cars and made them into interubans with full interior lighting and all,he lived alone when i moved away from Ridgewood in 1967 he was still alive,i never saw him again this modeling reminds me so much of his layout,it's too bad that people who have such layouts like Bob Hegge's Crooked Mountain Lines o scale traction layout,or John Allen's fantasic ho scale layout couldn't be saved,i think if we would have had this internet in the 60's we may still have the layouts today to admire as we would have had a means to keep in touch much better...who knows but this layout we have on this web site is a great stride in the direction that i think we all would like to end up with ourselvs,is there a way that we can get the info on how to build such high detailed models as these thanks. Karl
Joe ... as always, fabulous!
Now all you need is a webcam so we can see you operating this layout (and I'll need a keyboard protector from all the drool that is sure to develop :)
--Mark
Has the ta kept some of the retired cars in storage to use as spares when required?
I've never heard of any. There was one incident where some BMT standards were pulled from a scrap dealer and put back in service..1966 I believe; but normally once cars or retired that's th end of the line...and off the property ASAP. I wouldn't say there aren't other exceptions; or that keeping some older cars for emergencies in storage wouldn't be a good idea.
Is it possible that some of the r10's were kept past 1989 and used again iin 1991.
No, none were.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
All the R16's were mothballed around 1979, and at least the WH ones went back into service with the R46 crisis raging.
About 46 GOH R30's hung around a short while.
I hope 200 Redbirds are cherry-picked and stored for a future crisis.
just 200??? We're gonna need more than that
judging by the way the 'supposed' REPLACEMENTS
are holding up (the line)......
I know that track extends west beyond the station...is there enough
room for an 11 car train??...I always wondered about that...
I believe the answer is yes, but don't quote me... others out here (Peter Dougherty among others, any T/O who's worked the 7, etc.) can give us a more definitive answer.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Peter's book states that the tracks are approximately 700 feet long. So... 11x51=516 with still some space to spare.
11x51=516 with still some space to spare.
Actually =561, but your point is still valid, there's space. Thanks for the info.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I have always been interested in these tail tracks ever since I first observed them. I pass through Times Square station almost every day, but don't make it down to the 7 to investigate that often.
I inquired about the tail tracks some time ago with regard to the often tossed around notion of extending the Flushing line out to the west, but was unable to find someone who knew the exact distance that they extend past the platform.
So now that we do know these tracks extend approximately 700 feet, my question is: How far are they from 8th Avenue at the western end of the IRT tunnel?
I reason they can't extend to the west past 8th avenue because of: 1) the presence of the lower level platform at 42nd street on the 8th avenue-IND line, and 2) the distance beteen seventh and eigth avenue is ~900 feet. But I could be wrong -- it is next to impossible for me to accurately estimate depth and distance underground.
I'm guessing they must come fairly close, though. Does anyone know?
MATT-2AV
If I remember correctly from long long ago, far far away, those tail tracks go RIGHT TO the wall of the IND 42nd St station (that used to go to Aqueduct once upon a time) ... it's that wall that's the end of the tracks.
Car storage is not the purpose for these tail tracks. Using these tracks for storage would negate that purpose.
Their purpose is to permit 40 tph operation on the line. They have operated 36 tph in the past. The tail tracks help this by permitting the trains to enter the station at near max speed. If the tail tracks were not present and Times Square were a stub terminal, then the train speed would be limited to 5-10 mph in the station. This would limit the theoretical capacity to 30 tph. The 14th St Line, which has a stub terminal at 8th Ave, ran 24 tph in the past.
>>> The tail tracks help this by permitting the trains to enter the station at near max speed. <<<
That makes a lot of sense, but I do not ever remember coming into Times Square on the 7 at high speed. It has been a long time since I was there, but when there was a short interval (high tph) the incoming train was waiting for one of the station tracks to clear. Even if no train was in the station, the incoming trains always slowed for the interlocking just before the station.
Tom
Since the tail tracks extend about 700 past the station, could they build a diamond crossover just west of the station, and have trains turn around back there. It would increase TPH dramatically. You could have up to 4 trains at one time around the station, two using the tail tracks to turn around, the westbound side for unloading trains, and the eastbound side for loading. And you would still have time for the crew to walk to the other end of the car while at the tail tracks.
No, you have reduced capacity to 24 tph.
Consider a train has just stopped in the station. Assume that the dwell time for discharging all the passengers is 30 seconds. The time for a train to move 700' @ 5 mph is 93 seconds. The platform is now clear so a new train can enter the station. If the tail track were empty, then the train could average 15 mph. The time to travel 560' @ 15 mph is 25 seconds. So the cycle is 30 + 93 + 25 = 148 seconds. Unfortuantely, trains currently operate at 120 second headways. You need an empty second track, for the next train.
Motormen will be switched because of the tight schedule. It would take a person about 2 minutes, walking briskly, to go from the back to the front to change directions. Dwell time at Times Sq is around a minute.
I assume that the tail tracks ensure that if a train coming in at 30mph has a brake failure it can manage to stop without a major collision?
Dan
No, what the tail tracks ensure is that if a train goes into emergency at 30 mph at the west end of the platform by virtue of being tripped by the red signal there, that it will stop before the bumper 700 feet away. If any train has a brake failure, the only a collision will stop it.:-)
If the train is at the west end of Times Square and doing 30,
those pocket timers weren't doing their job!
Those are timers not wheel detectors. It is possible for the operator to accelerate after passing the last timer signal. I don't know, if he'd make it up to 30 mph. However, there is still sufficient stopping distance on the tail tracks to come to a complete stop before the bumper.
Otherwise they would have to add a WD within the platform to guard against such a possibility. :-)
It's about 200' between the last automatic pocket-timed signal
and the homeball at the end of the platform which is normally at
danger. So, it would be tough to run the block there. But
there are numerous places in the system where a t/o could deliberately
wrap it up after passing the last timer and cause quite a stir.
Ssssh, I shouldn't say anything, or there'll be more WDs.
A body undergoing a constant acceleration of 1.5 mph/sec will have its velocity increased by 20 mph in 200 feet.
Hey Bill. Wanted to let you know that from my experiences, an 11 car or a ten car train does not fit on the tail tracks at Times Square. It might be 700' from what others say but if you factor in where the bumping block is and also the distance from the station wall to the reverse home signal for the tail track it cuts down the distance. An 8 car train would probably fit with signal protection. The tail tracks are handy at night when the garbage train comes out and hides in the back. The timers are extremely slow when there is a train in the back and dispatchers look to get rid of them as soon as they can. If Rudy's plan for an extension of the 7 to the Javitz center comes to fruition, the lower level of 42 and 8 would bite the dust.
Hey Bill. Wanted to let you know that from my experiences, an 11 car or a ten car train does not fit on the tail tracks at Times Square. It might be 700' from what others say but if you factor in where the bumping block is and also the distance from the station wall to the reverse home signal for the tail track it cuts down the distance. An 8 car train would probably fit with signal protection. The tail tracks are handy at night when the garbage train comes out and hides in the back. The timers are extremely slow when there is a train in the back and dispatchers look to get rid of them as soon as they can. If Rudy's plan for an extension of the 7 to the Javitz center comes to fruition, the lower level of 42 and 8 would bite the dust.
Sorry to go off topic but no comment cameout where I mentioned the Peanut Gallery in one of my posts. Who else remembers Howdy Doody? NO I wasn't a fan of that show...just testing memories.
Oh well, some TV showed rail stuff...Superman opened with either an SP Daylight or SP F-type diesels.
Clarabell or Buffalo Bob (both of whom are DEAD) ? Nah, nobody here remembers that stuff nor are we willing to remember, "WHAT TIME IS IT?" Go away. Heh.
Heck I can still remember the Peanut Gallery. Probably only on on sub talk that sat in the real Peanut gallery. Cira 48 or 49, Besides Claribell there was Princess Summer Fall Winter Spring. Now for a million free miles on the 15 Jam/Bwy line who did Claribell become after his time on Howdy Dowdy? I know the answer or I wouldn't have asked the question. Answer to follow the Cubs game today.
That's too EASY ... just so you know that *I* am with the carney here, I'll give it away to the wise as "very large coat pockets that held a carrot" ... but I won't ruin it for others ... wink-wink, nudge nudge ... she's a goer, then, eh? :)
No wait ... I'm thinking a Chicago clown who moved to NYC in the 50's and did the same sideshow act there ... glad it's the mind that goes first and not a vital organ :)
Are you thinking of Bozo the Clown? There still is a Bozo show (in Chicago I think) but it shows up cometimes on local cable.
Yeah, but I was covering my wager. Turns out I was right the first time. Heh. Just wasn't sure with the fog of 26 hours on duty with what it is I do now ... But yeah, Chicago's "Tribune Bozo" (WGN) was NYC's (WPIX11) Bozo as well ... man, his arms musta hurt with all that flying back and forth ... for a redbird storm door, who was BOZO the Clown (and no, NOT the "Merry Mailman" who provided us all with his loverly daughter, Joey Heatherton) ... grrrrow-wow ... nice puppy canine. Flavor-snackos ...
But what the HELL does this have to do with the ongoing debate of "my subway car is more fooked up than yours?" :)
Well, of course, Bob Keeshan became Captain Kangaroo. A very nice person and a very big noise out here in Babylon, where he lived. Contributor to the local Y and different kid's things. Kind of makes up for Babylon's other Big Bob. Anyone know who I'm talking about?
A guess --- Robert Moses ?
The very one. He had a big house on Thompson Avenue just south of Main which the local kids burned down many years aho.
Paul is right on. Has to be like me and Selkirk and Big Ed, having been there and don dat. Bob keeshan was Clairbell and then became Cpt kangaroo. Has to be a great man for all he the delight he brought to the younger generation. Non of that Liberal stuff from the likes of Barney. Barney and Robert Moses were the worst for NY. Cost effective clean and regular mass transit for large metro is the only way you get the biggest bang for the buck. Nyc should extend the flushing line to La Guardia and the A to JFK. Not later but now. Atlanta is proof that travelers will use transit to the airport.
Couldn't wait for the Cubs to win as got to run to the left coast of Michigan and it will be past my bed time when I get back. Lots of rest keeps the brain cells from fading.
Thought this was a good thread for a slow transit sunday.
Burn the Slow Orders.
Curt
PS Any ole Army Aviators out there amoung the Sub Talkers.
Barney liberal?!?! Jerry Fallwell says he's QUEER ... purple and all. It takes *BALLS* to be a liberal these days and last I checked, Barney was lacking same. :)
If you're near Hotlanta, grant us No Yawkah's one last wish before the lights go out? Can we have five minutes alone in an underpass with John Rocker? PLEEZE? We can show him a can'o'wupass good time. Heh.
No joystickers here, ain't nothing but us chikkens ... moo. ;)
Not from Hotlanta. But I do live above the 45 parrallel in northern MI. I don't know why everyone got on John Rocker at least he told the truth. The neighborhood of the 7 ain't the same as when envisioned by Mr. Belmont. As with all the lines in the City they go through a hodge podge of ethinic neighboorhoods. I lived in the south 27 years after going in the Army in 62. Rocker's biggest fault was he said outloud what people think to themselves. Maybe if more people spoke there minds and people listened NYC and the world would be a better place.
When all else fail the Infantry School solution will take care "Just Nuke Um Till They Glow In The Dark"
Burn the Slow Orders
Curt
Damn ... I had a lot of respect for you before this post. Lemme put it this way, proud to be an upstate redneck, proud to be a Republican. just not the side you seem to see. New York City was ALWAYS an "armpit" of refugees from elsewhere - that's ALWAYS been what it's about. It's a place to be among your won if there's enough of you until you're ready to move somewhere else and be abused by the "Love it or leave it" mentality.
PLEASE pardon my hackles here, but the only RIGHTFUL AMERICANS live on "reservations" ... all the rest of us are THEIR guests ... glad you're out of the city and all - as an upstate "redneck" I can appreciate the value of getting away. Took three generations for *this* white trash to move out. HOWEVER ... Rocker's an asshole and so is (to my mind at least) anyone who has a problem with the fact that NO ONE came from an "American gene pool" here. We're *ALL* MONGRELS, FOREIGNERS and perhaps pinkos (grin) ... but we're Americans BECAUSE NO TWO ARE ALIKE ... that's what makes every one of us special, at least in our own minds. As long as the people that were here before us who never believed in silly "property boundaries" are willing to let us stay, we should be grateful for their generosity as fellow carbon based lifeforms for putting UP with us.
Once again, no offense intended ... when you live away from loonies, you tend to take a broader view of our place on a spinning ball in space.
New York City is Polish, it's Lithuanian, it's Irish, it's Bulgarian, it's Cuban, it's Dominican, it's Borinquen, it's Korean, Nepalise, Iraqi, Greek, Turkish, Samoan, Nigerian, Turkmeni, Ivory Coast, Ghana, Seychelles Islands, Filipino, Afghani, Congolese, Cantonese, Peruvian, Senegalese, Manchurian, Moroccan, Jewish, Palestinian, Latvian and much, much more. Is there somehow something WRONG with this? If New York City doesn't break out in global conflict, why shoudld we give a sheet (white or black, his choice) about John Rocker?
The sphincter muscle is the only politically correct orifice there is. EVERYBODY has one. And John Rocker has too many. Once again, my deepest respect to you personally, but contempt for what you expressed. My apologies ... please, nothing personal ...
No apologies please as I know what you are saying about native americans and the rest of us being guests. It just seems that the new generations of some ethnic groups don't want to work as hard as there forbearers. I'm not for slave labor but the folks with there hands out so the liberals can fill them for doing nothing except breathing is not good for the city. Somehow I think you had the misfortune of coming in contact with their likes and know what I am trying to put in words. It was the hard working Italians down on Mulberry St and the Jewish community on Delancy St and Irish in Brooklyn et al that really made NYC great in the first half of the century. I hope I have explained myself much better. I spent 26 years in the Army and worked with all and all worked together. That's the way it should be if we continue to be a great society. A big negative is the voting apathey. We fight for others so they can have a right to vote where the ballot has more than one name and party. Thanks for respecting my right to have an opinion as it is like the A------ everyone has one.
Always burn the slow orders.
Curt
>>> It just seems that the new generations of some ethnic groups don't want to work as hard as there forbearers <<<
Isn't it ironic that this was the complaint about the "lazy" Irish, Italians and East European Jews when they first came to New York.
Tom
That was before my time. But they couldn't have been too lazy as they took part during the city's biggest growth in infastructure. Especially in a time before mechanism to the extent that WW 2 brought. Most thinks done by shovel and pick. Think about the river tunnels and the Brooklyn Bridge at the turn of the century. Nothing but back breaking labor.
Burn the slow orders.
Curt
If you could find a copy of Lights and Shadows of New York Life, from 1872 and reprinted 100 years later (I have a reprint) you'd find a lot of surprises; one thing was slums, people's ignorance, living in filth, crime galore...even incidents of "roughs" boarding streetcars and harassing passengers and/or robbing them, refusing to pay their fares etc. Like the turnstile jumpers who'd do the same on the subway in the 70's before I left. No racial group names mentioned but you can pretty much decipher that it was the Irish. NO OFFENSES MEANT.
As for lazy newer immigrant groups my own experience from living in small town America is that too much of our modern society is lazy as well. I won't waste space but all that's pinned on [mostly]darker skinned people goes on among Anglo-Saxons and some other Caucasians, not that I'd ever sympathize with the bad element that ran me out of NYC 24 years ago. Only killings aren't as common and you rarely see burned out buildings. I hated what I saw in NYC back then but found a lot of similar things in white America, and thru reading found none of this stuff was new either.
I do hate politicians that helped foster the easy on criminals thing though.
Q: What do politicians and diapers have in common? A:They both have to be changed often for the same reason.
I don't like what I read about in the lowest level of the Mexican community for example but imagine what a lot of produce would cost if it weren"t for them in California let's say. Or the Italian ditch diggers years ago, or the Irish who built the RR plant, etc.
Actually, I have children who were of an age to watch Barney the Dinosaur.
The original (pre-PBS) and first few years of PBS Barneys were on the more traditional side of the culture wars.
I don't suppose anyone is going to write a tell-all book about the evolution of Kids' TV, but the traditionalists, as represented by Bob Keeshan and Fred Rogers, were opposed to the Sesame Street crowd. The essential difference was the early (1968) concept of Sesame Street which said that children have short attention spans, so you have to give them fast snippets of information--pow! pow! pow!--to keep them from wandering off. Within the last few years, PBS has acknowledged (albeit indirectly) that this is in error.
Barneey represented a return to the concept that children's (esp. pre-schoolers) TV is supposed to engage its intended age group--not their too-too-hip parents. Each Barney episode is (or was--I haven't seen the new productions in years) structured around a single theme that flows from start to finish, and is reviewed at the end.
Sorry if this is an unpopular position, but if you actually watched some of these shows with children, or you get a much different idea of their appropriateness than what you read in the New York Times.
Nothing between commercials is as dangerous to children as the commercials themselves. Shows have different messages, but commercial s are all the same...
"Your value of a person, and the worth of your life, depends on the things you can buy...and people are things for your enjoyment that come with the other things you can buy."
Hell of a lot of cars in the commercials as well.
We had a TV really early--1949. It was our one big luxury which we could afford since, like most Brooklynites, we lived in an apartment and didn't own a car. So we saw Howdy Doody from very early on--from when Buffalo Bob was still just called Bob Smith. I remember the rather absurd episode where he was named Buffalo Bob. IIRC, Chief Thunderthud handed Bob a "puzzle" which was just two parts of a Buffalo placard, he fitted them together and was honored to thus become "Buffalo Bob."
The neighborhood kids and I puzzled over some of the mysteries of the show. The name "Howdy Doody" sounded vaguely obscene to our Brooklyn ears, though it was taken from MiddleAmerican for "How do you do?" And we wondered why an obviously boy clown was named "Clarabelle."
By brother and I didn't like Howdy Doody much--we considered it babyish, though I can't really recall why. There were a lot of kid shows then, many produced in the NY area, so it was real easy to get tickets. There was a favorite on WATV (Channel 13 in Newark pre-public TV) which was "Junior Frolics" on Weekdays and "Junior Carnival" on Weekends. On topic: every year for my birthday, I got to be in whatever they called their "peanut gallery" on one of these two shows. To get to Newark we took the Hudson Tubes so I rode on the old Newark Extension cars (pre-Class-K) through the Jersey swamps without air conditioning. You can't imagine the smell! And I used to lok at the all the pipes going into the river and watching pretty colors coming out. Anyone who thinks pollution controls haven't gotten better should have had that experience.
If I'm grateful to my parents for one thing, it was that they never complained when I wrote off for (free) tickets to different TV shows. It was a great (and in retrospect unusual) experience to see early TV. I recall how agreeable Gary Moore was. He used to banter with the audience before show time. And I recall poking around Channel 9's studio at 1440 Broadway. They were showing a movie in a darkened room and had a camera pointed at it!
Last thought on Buffalo Bob--by the time my wife was in college he was making the circuit of college entertainment (kind of like the Bob Hope of the 2-S crowd) in costume cracking jokes about pot smoking, I'm told. O tempore! O mores!
IIRC wasn't there a show on Channel 9 called "Circus Train" with Claude Kirschner. The kids rode around the studio in a large battery operated train, between cartoons.
There was an article in the NY Times Sunday Real Estate Section 10-15 years ago about what can be found in attics. The article went on to describe how the new homeowners found this train in the attic. After doing a title search, they discovered that two or three owners previous to them was Claude Kirschner and this was the train from the show. Don't know what happened subsequently to the train.
Wow ... he also did "Cartoon Carnival" ... if ever there was a guy who LOOKED like a pedarast, Uncle Claude fit the ticket even better than Tony Randall. :)
Now ... for the GRAND prize of Heypaul's R9 cab, who was the magician who appeared with Sonny Fox almost every Saturday on Wonderama on channel 5? I'm a personal friend of the magician and he's alive and well in Florida ... I'll put you in TOUCH with him if you'd like, he's every bit as cool today (and perhaps even more so) if you can guess his name ... he gets a kick out of his own peanut gallery but if you know what's good for you, don't try to sell him anything. :)
Apparently Circus Train was syndicated, as I remember it being shown on Baltimore's Channel 13 (WAAM in those days) circa 1952-53. We had a n Admiral 13" TV (black & white in those days), and sorta fond 1950's memories of Howdy Doody, the Peanut Gallery, and Dilly-Dally.
And, in my upstairs bedroom I could hear the Peter Witts winding up the hill on Harford Road (just 1 house from Harford) heading for Parkville.
Howdy Doody was a bit before my time, but I do remember Romper Room quite well. And, of course, Captain Kangaroo, which seemed targeted toward a slightly older age group than Romper Room.
And Romper Room was a production of Bert Claster Productions, based in Baltimore, MD and syndicated to the World.
How about a show called "Birthday Party" with a gent named Paul Tripp?? Not to mention WONDERAMA [The Sonny Fox version,of course!]..or all those cartoon & comedy shorts shows hosted by guys like Officer Joe Bolton [Three Stooges] and Captain Jack McCarthy [Popeye]...
Gee Ed, I thought you were too old to have seen TV in your youth.
Didn't we talk once about our favorite radio programs?
"Who KNOWS what evil lurks in the hearts of the state legislature?" Amtrak do ...
Kevin, I hate to tell you this, but the "Shadow" was not one of the favorites!
Yeah, you probably went for Guy Lombardo. Heh. Merely demonstrating that I actually remember the phrase ... my name? Well, we're scr00d ... radio, as it transitioned from serials and big bands to Scott Muni and "The Good Guys" was ... well ... interesting.
Actually, I couldn't live without The Lone Ranger.He was on three times a week at 7:30 PM, Mon, Wed & Fri. I was absolutely stunned when I learned that he was not an actual part of the history of the west. His radio programs were a lot better than any of his TV shows.
Guy Lombardo was OK, but only for New Years Eve!
Heh. Republic pictures (now Turner/MGM) *owns* all of those. There was a station called WFTI-TV54 in Poughkeepsie (now "Pray-TV") that OWNED the flicks back in 1980 ... we ran them faithfully (gack) every afternoon (7 days a week) at 5:30 PM right before the nightly newscast that yours truly stepped in front of a four-camera shoot and did at the anchor desk without benefit of "hey, sailor" as part of my stint with the high paying RTNDA crowd ... even got to do a standup from the White House lawn the day Ronnie got himself cannonized as a saint and the "hostages" came home. Damn if the satellite didn't sheet the bed and we had to do it from tape later.
But them films were *WELL* taken care of and can run again. I made "Family TV of Poughkeepsie, Inc" spend a FARKLOAD of money to apply silione to the original Republic Pictures dubs so they'd last. And yes, we ran them through an RCA TK66 film chain which was rebuilt to treat them with the care they deserved when we dubbed them to 2 inch quad tape on an Ampex 1100 deck with Editec and all the toys, into a VW-2 Time base corrector. Also dubbed to one inch after passing them through "scratch correction" ... should be some good dubs out there still.
Encore Westerns did a marathon of old Lone Ranger TV shows about a year ago. I watched for hours, and that night I had the most bizarre dream possible.
I was on the Jamaica (J) train as it pulled into Chambers St. The train was the old R-16's, and when the doors opened, Clayton Moore and Jay Silverheels got on in their complete TV attire, and leading Silver & Scout. Can you imagine how ridiculous it would be to actually have a masked cowboy and an indian, leading horses, and getting on a subway train?
I suppose that it shows that I must have been thinking about the subways and The Lone Ranger a lot!
How did the films LOOK? They *should* have been pretty clean considering how scraatched up they were when *WE* bought them - I never much cared for the "Loan Arranger" myself - I though it rather trite, but when we realized what we *HAD* we treated it with the respect it *DESERVED* for its vintage as well as its popularity back in 1980 (see Poughkeepsie Journal historic articles on "WFTI-TV" and "LLone Ranger" for the crap we took at the time for airing them) ... we SPENT the money to remove all the scratches technology could at the time and gave them a long-lasting silicone layer to maintain them for "the future" ...
And yes, they DID do some of the show out of NYC though all of it was shot on the old Republic lot out in the Calley desert where they shot so many other things like Star Trek and CHIPS ... When I was a kid, I saw that, Hopalong Cassidy and such, but *MY* idea of TV was the stooges and SUPERMAN ... never really got into wanting to shoot injuns, since all of us are THEIR GUESTS here in America. They wuz here first after all ... :)
The shows used in the marathon were great copies. I even taped some of them for old times sake. I agree that the TV show did seem trite, and that's why I preferred the radio show. With the radio show you could hear, but you had to create the picture in your mind.
Thats the problem with TV compared. The radio enabled one to use there imagination. TV eliminates that step in the thinking process. I think it help one visualize and that's a good mental process lost on todays generation.
Burn the slow orders
Curt
"Thats the problem with TV compared. The radio enabled one to use there imagination. TV eliminates that step in the thinking process. I think it help one visualize and that's a good mental process lost on todays generation."
And if I recall a discussion in a history class back in college, the same fears were expressed about radio when IT came out. "Why, they'll have the voices and sounds laid out for them on a silver platter, instead of having to imagine them like you do when reading! Young minds will turn to mush in one generation without that additional thinking!" :^)
Come to think of it, there was a popular perception when car radios first came out that there was a rash of car accidents because drivers weren't paying attention to the road. The public debate in the newspapers of the day sounds suspiciously like today's cell phone driving debate.
Come to think of it, there was a popular perception when car radios first came out that there was a rash of car accidents because drivers weren't paying attention to the road.
And there's probably some truth to that assessment. What most folks fail to recognize, when they start singling out one item or another - be it radios, be it cell phones, be it squabbling children, or whatever - the issue is a general one of driver attentiveness. Some people can listen to the radio and drive safely, others cannot, and the same goes for cell phones, children, or your spouse. As long as the driver remains focused on their driving, the rest is trivial, but when they forget, it might be the for the last time.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
That was one of the reasons I *loved* working in radio (aside from the measly paycheck) because you could do things on the radio that you couldn't POSSIBLY afford to do on teevee ... look at the things firesign theater did in the 60's as but one other example. Nowadays, radio is some loud mouth deejay telling you how there's continuous music with no interruptions ... except THIS one of course. :)
Encore Westerns did a marathon of old Lone Ranger TV shows about a year ago. I watched for hours, and that night I had the most bizarre dream possible.
I was on the Jamaica (J) train as it pulled into Chambers St. The train was the old R-16's, and when the doors opened, Clayton Moore and Jay Silverheels got on in their complete TV attire, and leading Silver & Scout. Can you imagine how ridiculous it would be to actually have a masked cowboy and an indian, leading horses, and getting on a subway train?
Never could happen in real life. The HORSES would be too disgusted by the condition of Chambers Street!!
Everybody says that about Chambers St. I have not seen the station in person in over 40 years, but I have seen it in Salaam's railfan videotapes.
It really does not look much worse than I remember it from the 1950's, and it looked pretty bad then. Any station that sets only partially used and dirty for years has one strike against it to begin with. Water coming out of the ceiling, and tile falling off the walls makes the whole situation worse. The new lighting just makes the dirt and disrepair easier to see.
Probably so...I think even though I was born in 1943 I was much like the old Liberty ships, built with reciprocating engines when turbines were the thing for deep sea ships for some 25 years already. They must have made me from 1910 plans! Everything I liked best except for 50"s music and autos is from that period.
Actually I watched what little I saw of Howdy Doody on a friends TV...my family didn't have one until 1958; so I enjoyed radio when some of the last of the old comedies were still on, and of course my rock and roll/rhythm and blues of the period.
Superman opened with either an SP Daylight or SP F-type diesels
Was the SP Saylight steam-powered? It seems to be that the early Superman episodes shows a steam engine for "More Powerful Than a Locomotive" and the later ones a diesel.
The steam engine expressed the "more powerful" much more forcefully than the diesel, IMO.
There is a wonderful site that has TONS of stuff about old TV,with a huge amountof amterial about old kiddie shows from various cities.....
Somehow screwed up the html.... here it is....sorry.....
Make that a double OOOPS!!
That link looks interesting, but neither the first or second worked.
NOW try.........computers are so intolerant of typing errors....lol
>>> NOW try.........computers are so intolerant of typing errors... <<<
This time it worked. An interesting site. It is best to preview and test links before posting.
Tom
Not am I old enough to remember "Hey Kids, What Time is It", I also remember "Winky-Dink and You" too. Actually I was a big Superman & Captain Midnight fan and have many videotape episodes of each.
OK - Tonight's subway trivia question:
In one Superman episode, the bad guys knock the motorman of a train unconsious to kill Lois Lane. They set the throttle and the local runs out of control. Question, what train was sent running out of control and what was it going to collide with?
Captain Midnight Trivia:
Who were SQ-1, SQ-2 and SQ-3
What was the name of Captain Midnights plane
Bonus Question:
What was the name of Sky King's original Plane.
BS you are not old enough. You've been there and Don Dat. Too many hours in the shop fixing bad orders.
Burn the slow orders
Curt
Was there something before the "Song Bird"?
Nope but there was something after the Songbird
What was it, Songbird II ?
Not only am I old enough to remember "Hey Kids, What Time is It", I also remember "Winky-Dink and You" too. Actually I was a big Superman & Captain Midnight fan and have many videotape episodes of each.
OK - Tonight's subway trivia question:
In one Superman episode, the bad guys knock the motorman of a train unconsious to kill Lois Lane. They set the throttle and the local runs out of control. Question, what train was sent running out of control and what was it going to collide with?
Captain Midnight Trivia:
Who were SQ-1, SQ-2 and SQ-3
What was the name of Captain Midnights plane
Bonus Question:
What was the name of Sky King's original Plane.
On radio they were known as SS-1 etc.
SS-1 Captain Midnight
SS-2 Chuck
SS-3 Joyce
Icky was an SS member too, but I don't think he had a number.
On radio Sky King's plane was "The Songbird".
Not sure what the route was but I believe the two trains involved were a Steinway Lo-V and an R-1/R-4 type. Don't ask me how they got on the same track.
wayne
The Valley Local was supposed to crash into the Valley Express, a
"half-hour nonstop run." Since the Daily Planet Building was LA City Hall, I guess the next question is whether LA's subway runs to the Valley. Hopefully TV Land will also rerun Casey Jones and the other shows someday.
In today's Newsday's Currents and Books Section there is an article about how trolleys are making a comeback in some downtown areas as a solution to the traffic problems.
One of the people quoted is Jim Schantz, president of the Seashore Trolley Museum in Maine.
If you get the paper it is on Page B-7.
the website is www.newsday.com.
with all this, i think the r142's will make it to the 7
"#7 Line Extension to Javits Center Area The success of the Jacob Javits Convention Center and the potential for continued growth in midtown Manhattan west of 8th Avenue has generated the need to evaluate improving transit access to that area. In 1999, New York City is initiating the Far West Midtown Study which will focus on the potential demand for a possible extension of NYC Transit's #7 train (Flushing Line) west from its current terminus at Times Square to a new terminus near the Javits Center."
A new expanded Corona Yard & Barn is needed before any R142's can be transfered to the #7 and the EPA is holding up the project due to enviornmental concerns: wetlands (swamps) in the area. You need a high tech maintance facility for high tech cars. For example: you need an overhead crane to change an air conditioning unit on an R142 because it is mounted in the roof.
I never would have guessed that an overhead crane counted as high tech. I remember seeing chain hoists in a factory 30 years ago.
Of course, with the computerization of the 142, your basic point is certainly valid.
In the context of ancient Corona Yard, the installation of an overhead crane is indeed high tech! In addition, a roof mounted a/c unit is high tech in the evolution of TA subway cars.
Several months ago, I posed a question regarding the Subway Series Commemorative Train that the Danbury Mint had advertised.
At that time someone (American Pig IIRC) said that they had received a postcard indicating that the item would ship in May.
Has it been received and how does it look vis-a-vis the real thing ?
According to NY1, scrapping begins in two weeks.
DEADBIRDS
Ten-hut! On deck! Don scuba gear, last ride ... watch the not-quite-closing doors, step lively ... grccchhhhh grek foop ... blub.
Now we can FINALLY get on with the LoV GOH. :)
Which Redbirds will be scrapped? Have any been pulled from service?
I heard that the R-142's are up and running, the R-33 will go over to Dyre Avenue, the Dyre Avenue redbirds will be scrapped along with the Pelham redbirds, last the R-36WF and mainline will be scrapped and replaced by the R-62A's from the 6 line and maybe the 3 line I dont think there is enough Pelham R-62A's to replace the Flushing fleet.Therfore the R-142's will run on the 2,5 and maybe the 3 and perhaps replacing the redbirds on the 4.
The R26 thru R29 are slightly over 400 cars, which are the likely ones to go offshore. I don't see how R142's can go to the 3 if they require 9 cars trains. Some of its R62A's will have to go to Corona to make up 11 car trains. Some of them will have to get double-tripcocks to pilot consists to Coney Island.
I guess you can count 9486-87 and 9540-41 in. Something tells me based on the number of 142As in service on the 6, some of these redbirds on that line could be on the chopping block.
Any word on how they're going to be removed from the property?
-Stef
They are building a carfloat at 207 Street Yard for the purpose of removing shells from the property. BTW, Mark told me they have lots of deadlined cars there waiting. I "broke" him in Wednesday when I first learned his conductor's uniform wasn't bogus. The Subtalk crew from Hell.
HA! Mark told he was having one hell of a day yesterday on the F. Apparently his traing got rerouted, but the tower people couldn't make up their minds where to send his train.... I was working in the booth at Stillwell when he walked by.
-Stef
He told me about that. You work Stillwell regularly?
I justed started this particular job this past Saturday, and I will be there every Saturday during the PM Tour giving lunch to the booths along the N Line, in addition to working at Stillwell. This is in effect for what's left of the Station Agent's Pick.
-Stef
Yipe ... subtalkers taking over the transit authority ... soon it'll be dogs and cats living together and redbirds on the IND ...
SUBTALKERS TAKE OVER THE TA
The entire R142/142As fleet is scrapped . The IRT has a new "redbird only" policy--resulting in major cuts in service unitl the new bondo, A/C-less cars can be ordered.
The BMT restores its route number system, extending it randomly onto the IND. The R68/R68A fleet is scrapped, to be replaced with museum R10 cars--resulting in more cuts in service.
The biggest regional hit song on NY radio: "Where the hell does this train go?" by the Sweat Riders.
:-) Andrew
And the downside of this would be? :)
Not all of us are crazy.
I know. I know. I was being facetious.
:-) Andrew
I hear Heypaul is taking over as TA chairman.:-)
Besides the soon-to-go money train, there are a number of R12-R22 cars in work train service. Any plans to have some Redbirds take over their roles, and send these older R units offshore instead ?
Or should it be "Bye-bye (Red) Birdies"?:-)
How about Surfs up Dude?
Does anybody have a full car roster with renumberings or know of a source for one?
We got our first TV in 1952. Our very elaborate rooftop antenna was only about 60 feet from the Jamaica el. Every time a train would pass. it would raise havoc with our TV picture, but not affect the sound. The problem resolved itself in later years, but I always wondered why we had the problem at all.
Pookahs and GHOSTS ... wasn't until the movie "The Exorcist" that those problems began to fade ... DX'ing signals from the 3rd Avenue El. WEIRD things transpired up on the IRT ... and it caused sunspots in Brooklyn ...
I lived east of Crescent St, so the el was between our antenna and the transmitter, which I believe, back then was from Manhattan. I guess the trains interupted the video signal.
Reflections is reflections, even if they're briefly lived. Ask the folks in the Bronx what happened to their roof antennas when World Trade went up and screwed up EVERYTHING ... "TelePrompTer Manhattan Cable" wouldn't have been viable without that permascrewup ... now it's TimeofyourAOLWeenie Cable (our motto, "if it aint HBO, it sucks") ... of course, we in the Bronx also got to enjoy "airplane flutter" as La Guardia made them "come around again" ... quit your whining. Nobody up north of you is the least bit sympathetic. Heh.
The video problem seemed to disappear before I left the city in '57, but I really don't know what happened to correct it.
I have to log off to go to a birthday dinner, but I have enjoyed this posting time. It was really nice to have someone answer a post I made.
You're welcome ... shoulda gone to bed hours ago but enjoyed it all just the same ... after 36 hours on shift, it's hard to find the same window to fall through to sleep that went by a day ago. :)
Moo! :)
hello please cheack out crazy taxi 2 for the dreamcast it has various locations in nyc. there are R110 a in the subway mentions of the a,b, c, d and 1,9 at the 81st station as wel as the orions that circle the city and the double buses enjoy the bus termial .
My kids have Crazy Taxi. The SF locales are rather interesting. Not like Train SImulator but you can crash into cable cars.
I don't think I would get the new Crazy Taxi unless my kids wanted it. They got bored with the first quickly.
Besides, Dreamcast is supposed to be going down the tubes, right?
When was the Hudson line built down the west side of Manhattan? When was it replaced with the currently abandoned elevated line?
I saw a couple of these signs one right before the curve at Grand Central, and after the station and just beyond the interlocking,its yellow and black,I know what the others signs mean but I dont know what WD stands for.
Wheel Detector.
Lunar signals installed on mostly older BRT and IRT trackage areas for extra secuirty in conjunction with automatics. Purpose is to keep MUs more of a safer distance between themselves.
Also used to control train speed.
Negative.
The purpose of the WD is to control the speed of a train. 85% of the time, a switch is involved. If a train goes over the posted WD speed limit, special stop arms that are not connected with automatic signals come up and trip the train. Only the Tower Operator can reset the WD in the event of an overspeed.
WD signals came about as a direct result of the Union Square crash. Also WD's are located in various locations throughout the system.
Are they often used in conjunction with track work? I've seen them on only while the tunnels were filled with track workers during major GOs, such as the one a few weeks back where uptown 6 service was express only between Bklyn Bridge and 42nd and the same for Downtown between 125 and 42nd.
Dan
Likewise, I've only seen the WDs on the 1/2/3/9 approaching Times Square active during the weekends, with the construction in full swing....
Every time, the T/O has dropped to slooooooow speeds going through, usually until a full car length past the WD END sign. I'd assume there'd be just as much hell to pay if they tripped a single-shot timer signal - why the extreme reaction?
The WD's at Times Square are on during most weekends lately because all service is running on 1 track from 72 to 42. So 2 & 3 service is crossed back to 2 track south of Times Square.
The reason we slow down so much is because the WD's measure axle speed, so that if you over speed any time in WD area your train will be tripped and you will be in trouble.
To reiterate Carzy, the WD measures the speed, takes a reading if you will. Regular GRADE TIMERS (GT) do not measure the speed of the train per say must just time it from signal to signal so you can bust the GT speed limit without tripping but bust a WD and that is it.
I know that is what I said IF YOU OVER SPEED ANYWHERE IN TH WD AREA YOUR TRAIN WILL BE TRIPPED.
I was trying to point out the WD actualy measures the speed where a GT does not measure the actual speed. Sorry to step on your brake handle.
Apology accepted
I understand how the WDs work, just curious why most T/Os tend to go much slower than the posted limit. I'd understand doing 15 mph across a WD set to 20, but not the ~3 mph that seems prevalent!
Four letter explanation: F E A R ... trip one of those, it's your last trip.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but don't most WD installations, unlike conventional timers, let you know if they're planning to trip you? I thought that most WDs glow steady lunar white when active, and flash lunar when you've gotten 'em angry.
Mark
That's how I understand it too ... bear in mind, they're way past my own time so I can only go on what I hear here ... but some of the current "staff" I've talked to tell me that they treat them like rattlers in the desert ... (grin)
If you approach them at over the posted speed, they are flashing. Once you have come down to the required speed, they go steady. Should you then overspeed after it has gone steady, that one will trip you. After you pass the last steady lunar white, there is usually the greater part of atrain length before you come to the WD END sign. Any overspeed in that area will also trip you. Since we all know that the posted speeds for WD and GT areas are not correct, better to go slower.
As an aside, anyone know how to beat the rap if you hit a red signal in a GT area, where the previous signal had an illuminated S or D?
>>>>As an aside, anyone know how to beat the rap if you hit a red signal in a GT area, where the previous signal had an illuminated S or D?
If it's a home ball, and you hit it, go down to the roadbed and step on the stop arm of the home ball until it retains. Then go back to your cab, take off, and pray to God that Control isn't calling for your head.
Fortunately, I haven't had to do this. Yet.
There is actually a Bulletin that gives you an out. Go find a copy of 35-98, which has not been rescinded.
The bulletin begins by quoting Rule 98-g, then continues on with instructions for TOs observing a caution signal (yellow aspect).
It then specifically emphasizes that: caution signals associated with Grade Time areas displaying an illuminated "S" or "D" are exempt from the above instructions. Train Operators operating in Grade Time areas governed by these signals will operate in accordance with the posted speeds.
But if you hit the signal, you must have been operating overspeed, eh?
Also, technically, I think that portion of the bulletin is wrong.
I wonder why it was issued? If you have just passed a yellow/S,
you should be prepared to stop clear of the next red signal
But if you hit the signal, you must have been operating overspeed, eh?
Ride a 1 from 103 to 96. The area is posted GT 30; if I did 30 (hell if I do better than 25), I will hit an automatic and at least one of the two homeballs there.
Also, technically, I think that portion of the bulletin is wrong.
I wonder why it was issued? If you have just passed a yellow/S, you should be prepared to stop clear of the next red signal.
I agree. Technically, it is wrong. However, since it is written as a bulletin that has not yet been rescinded or superceded by another one, its illogic stands. A nameless Superintendant at Jay St has concurred with my reading of this particular bulletin, although he has promised to re-issue a corrected version.
Most GTs are based on older mechanical timing relays. They
can start to get slower with age if they aren't properly
inspected and maintained. WD's are microprocessor based and
they generally keep pretty accurate time.
That may be so, but when the TA installed the speedometers in most cabs they admitted they were accurate to within a couple of mph. So a WD maybe computer accurate while your speedometer gives you a general idea. That is why T/O's go so sloooow through WD areas. It's even more fun when you have a redbird w/o a speedometer and try to gauge how fast you're going. WD sign says 10 am I going 9,10 or 11 hard to tell till oops BIE victim of a WD.
And that's why a T/O goes slow through the WD. When I'm working the N, going into Pacific Street, I make sure that I'm not doing any faster than 6 mph through the WD10 area. I don't feel like visiting Jay Street anytime soon.
Rule of thumb for T/O's:
When in WD territory, do HALF the posted speed. One former T/O that I know (he voluntarily went back to Tower Operator) got tripped by the WD north of Pacific Street while working the N line which was posted at 10 MPH. When supervision printed the readout from the WD, the signal clocked him at 10.01 MPH. I kid you not.
Control Center squashed the overspeed.
Great Googley-Moogley!
Talk aboutmicro management. In the end I'm gald for the MM that some one used discression and did not persue for .01 mph.
The price the majority pay for the gross mistakes of the very small minority.
I know the system has to comply with FRA or other Fed agencies if they don't want to be blackmailed over Federal Funding. As Rush Limbaugh says "Follow the Money Trail"
Burn the Slow orders Trip the Timers
Curt
The first signal will be a steady white light to let you know the WD is active and to SLOOOOOOW down. After that they will flash until you meet the required speed requirements and then go a steady white light. As to why we slow down so much: You learn very quickly not to trust any signal with a posted speed whether it is a grade timer or a signal on station time.
I saw that one Sunday,just before the Grand Central station as I was riding the Dyre Avenue redbird,I like looking out the window at the various signal formations.There another WD sign just beyond the Grand Central station around the interlocking northbound.There was a bright light like a car light with, WD sign.
It stands for "Wheel Detector." When its flashing, its activated and the speed restriction it carries is in effect.
Actually, the WD trips reset themselves after about a minute. However, when they are tripped, they set off an alarm in the tower. It is this alarm that can only be reset by the Tower Operator. This way the TW/O will know about an overspeed, even if he is away from the board at the time it happens (bathroom break).
A new Coca-Cola commercial portrays how cool it is to drink a Coke and stay on your train. The scenes are set on the Meetro-North viaduct, with the Coca Cola patrons riding the New Haven Line. Nice interior and exterior shots. One shot from a camera set on a nearby roof.
Yes, I enjoy the commercial too. It's been around for about 2 months.
Did you notice the "V" covering over the "M" on the outside of the cars?
Peace,
ANDEE
No, I guess I missed it. I guess MTA didn't want to "copay" for the commercial.
Yes. It's a Metro-North train in disguise, looking like it's heading through the Bronx.
"I wished we could stay on that train forever." They should have taken the LIRR.
:-) Andrew
("I wished we could stay on that train forever." They should have taken the LIRR.)
They could get on the express at Great Neck. Fly like a bat to Long Island City, then stop in front of the East River tunnels. And wait. And wait. And wait. They could finish at least a couple of bottles of Coke in that time.
It's all surface and open cut through the Bronx. It's heading through Manhattan.
The kicker is that the A/C is not working and everybody is sweating
like basketball players. (The Philly 76ers were sweating like mad, but we're going to the finals so the Lakers can kick our a...s.)
Chuck Greene
An interesting observation. I'll bet that's why we don't see an MTA logo on the outside.
Peace,
ANDEE
You were just excited about the outcome!
Go 76ers! Good team or not, the people of Los Angeles do not deserve even one championship, let alone a repeat.
Go 76ers too! Can you imagine if they were healthy? They would be a juggernaught. (sp)
Yesterday I went to Manassas, Viginia to attend the Manassas Heritage Railway Festival. I asked a guy who was at the table with current Amtrak schedules why there is no Amtrak Northeast Schedule Booklet.
I got a reasonable answer. He says that because more Acela Express trainsets are in service, frequent schedule changes are necessary during this summer. Printing schedule booklets would cost too much with frequent schedule changes. Therefore, Amtrak only prints Northeast schedule strips during this summer.
Chaohwa
Did you try Union Station in DC to see if they have it?
I go to Union Station three times a week to see whether the Northeast Schedule booklet comes out. However, I only see those simplified schedule strips so far.
Chaohwa
Chaohwa you are correct. I was told at both Boston South Station and NY Penn Station that no books will be available this summer. The next tentative schedule change is July 9, when a 5th AE BOS-NYP (weekday) and 3rd AE BOS-NYP (weekend) trip will be added.
Has anyone seen this TV commercial?
Can you tell me what subway system it was filmed on?
I've seen the same commercials, and my guess is Paris Metro. It certainly wasn't any system in the US nor London. But the trains and stations seem to bear a striking resemblance to the Paris trains I've seen pictured on this site.
-- David
Chicago, IL
Definitely not Paris unless it's a mocked-up train, both interior and exterior. The view from the front of the train of the subway station looks like Paris, so checking other French systems I think it might be Marseilles, France. The white-colored train seems to be a match.
-Dave
Actually, it's an actual train on the Metro in Barcelona, Spain.
Thank You! The mystery is solved.
See http://www.nycsubway.org/cgi-bin/subtalk.cgi?read=225435
-Hank
Did anyone else notice that the 1965 softcover book about SIRT that was on eBay sold for over $79.00.
Paul said the book sold new for $1.25. I said it would probably go for 20 or 30 times its original price. That works out to almost 64 times its original price.
WOW!!!!!
AFAIK, that's a new high. Copies earlier went in the low-mid $60s. I notice that three people sniped the book at the last minute. Thirty seconds before closing it was still about $30.
A complete set (all 7 volumes) of Seyfried's LIRR hisory recently went for over $800. I wish I could have afforded that. There can't be more than 600 or so complete sets, since I think that was the press run of the first volume, but there have to be a lot fewer complete sets, since many people (like me) have some of the volumes but are missing others.
I wonder what the highest price for a transit-related history has been? Anyone know of single volumes that have gone for over $100? $200? Higher?
A recent book Evolution of the New York Subway by Sansone sold on Ebay some months ago for around $130.00. Of course the book when it was released was $50. or $60.
There was a re-print of at least one in the series: Brooklyn Rapid Transit Trolley Lines in Queens, by Vincent F. Seyfried.
Originally 1959, re-printed 1998, very afforadably priced.
BTW, I'm still looking for the one that covers Queens & is said to have a chapter on NY & Queens County Ry, aka Queens Surface.
Mr t__:^)
Vol. 1 of the late Harre Demoro's two-volume work on the Key System was offered at the EPTC meet by a dealer for $200. The same dealer had vol. 2 priced at $125 and would sell them as a set for $290. They were in very good plus condition - minor rips were visible in the dustjackets - can't tell about the rest since they were wrapped in plastic. I don't know if they sold. (I have a set, thank you, for which I paid $50 new [total list was $66], a couple of years after they came out.)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I can tell you that there are two volumes by Sebree and Ward from Interurban Press:Transit's Stepchild-The Trolley Coach and The Trolley Coach in North America which are incredibly scarce and regularly sell for over $100 per volume.I paid $175 for both volumes purchased separately and felt I got a very fair deal.The books are virtually unobtainable and really cover the subject exhaustively.It seems the late Harry DeMorro's works are very popular-no wonder,because he did such a great job.I found a bunch of old "Railroad"magazines in a used bookstore and one of them from 1948,I believe, has a good article on the SIRT with photos-this was when all three lines still ran.
ATTENTION SUBTALKERS:
There will be a public hearing regarding federal funding requests for the 2002 fiscal year of MTA's capital budget. It will be:
Wednesday, June 6, 2001
MTA Headquarters
5th Floor Boardroom
347 Madison Av
New York NY 10017
TIME: 4:30 PM
I encourage you to attend, if you can. I am in Philly, so I won't be able to make it to this one.
Someof the projects listed include:
1. East Side Access, LIRR-GCT (preliminary engineering, construction activity, design activity)
2. Second Av subway (preliminary engineering activity on full-length subway)
3. Grand Central Station Rehabilitation/repair
4. Rehabilitation of White Plains Road subway line in the Bronx, including ADA upgrades to several stations
5. Times Square Rehab and ADA
6. Marcy Ave (J) rehab and ADA
7. Full ADA of West 4th Street, 125 St, and Euclid Av stations on 8th Av line and tunnel rehab
8. Rehab of 74th St/Broadway -ADA
9. Harlem line 3rd track program
10. Pascack Valley line upgrade- $11 million
There is one project I found which will be controversial on Subtalk. MTA wants to reduce the Nassau St line in Manhattan from four tracks to two on a specific segment to reduce the size of one station, remove platforms, reduce maintenance expenses, and improve customer safety.
MTA asserts that the J operates as a two track line already.
If I have the URL right, here it is: http://www.mta.nyc.ny.us/mta/ffa/2002page43.htm
Whatever your opinions are, write to MTA or go to the meeting and speak.
There is one project I found which will be controversial on Subtalk. MTA wants to reduce the Nassau St line in Manhattan from four tracks to two on a specific segment to reduce the size of one station, remove platforms, reduce maintenance expenses, and improve customer safety.
MTA asserts that the J operates as a two track line already.
I suspect that this has to do with the Canal Street station, where they want to eliminate the two Northbound tracks and the Northbound platform and connect the current Southbound center track (which terminates at the south end of the station) so that it becomes the new Northbound track. In addition to the benefits(?) you mention, this project is also supposed to reduce the number of curves on the line.
In my post on the capital budget '02 hearing, I neglected to mention that one of the items is a signal replacement program for the "7" train, which specifies preparation for installation of CBTC.
Well then they might want to consider also upgrading the Corona barn to handle subway cars that will be compatible with CBTC.
Yes. I believe that part of the 02 capital plan, at least in part.
yea. In the MTA website it says that cbtc is going to be installed and also upgrade Corona yard. with all this i do expect to see the r142's right?
Eventually.
Not necessarily. When CBTC was tested recently on the express tracks of the F line between Church Avenue and Seventh Avenue, R-42s were used and the equipment was housed in #2 cabs. Moreover, the original CBTC specification for the Canarsie Line called for several R-42s to get "limited" CBTC capability (emergency braking control, mostly).
With the linking of most R-62As into 5-car units, there are plenty of unused cabs (8, in fact, per unit) in which CBTC equipment can be housed. Nobody has ever said that CBTC-equipped subway cars also have to have AC propulsion, regenerative braking, and the other "doodads" with which the new cars have been outfitted.
David
Then again....haan't the MTA been testing AC traction motors on some older equipment?
ok. the r62's can be cbtc equiped. but the MTA will renovate the corona yard. once that is done by 2002, the r142's could be maintained there. also we will be the first IRT to get CBTC. dont the TA want to test out CBTC with the 142's? come on,if you put r142's in the Bronx where is more worse than Corona, the TA can putthem here. besides, what important places does the 4,5,or 6 serves? ok yankee stadium. the 7 serves shea stadium and the U.S open, an event that brings people here nation wide. and also, the 7 will be extended to the Javits center. i just hope i see some r142's on the 7 by 2004. the TA has to use some common sence.
or if not. split the 2 rolling stock in each line. half r62's and half r142's. like that every line would be equal, and people like me would be happy. isn't this good guys? give me your opinion
Don't expect CBTC on the Flushing any time soon. CBTC in still in the working-out-the-bugs phase. Flushing is high on the list once it's ready, but the old signals can't wait, so they are replacing them now. It is a conventional signal job, but designed to have CBTC installed as well. The CBTC will be installed later.
My understanding (as yet incomplete) is that the first few CBTC lines will also have conventional signals, so older equipment can operate on it as well, and a back-up is available in case of a CBTC failure. Canarsie, Culver, and Flushing will be done this way. Later, as the fleet changes over and the kinks are worked out of CBTC, signal replacement will proceed without visible signals. Obviously, non-CBTC rolling stock will not be able to run on lines with no visible signals.
The need to transition from one type of car to another complicates things.
Fleet assignments are not for your pleasure. Contracts are kept together to ease mantainence so 1 shop doesn't need to stock parts for so many contracts.
You are correct. The R-142 per se is not required for CBTC. I'm just musing about what happens 25 years down the road...maybe...
Wouldn't it be much easyer to retrofit R142 having a standardized interface than R62?
Arti
It appears that the Flushing Line fleet will consist of R-62As, not R-62s. The R-62A fleet is being retrofitted with Adtranz E-CAM controllers, which may lend themselves more easily to CBTC upgrade than the GE SCM controllers on the R-62s, for example. As for LonWorks (or whatever comes next), that can be retrofitted to the cars if necessary and desirable.
David
Wouldn't retrofitting R142s be the cheapest solution?
Arti
Probably (and I'm guessing here, as I am not an engineer), but NYCT may have other reasons for retrofitting older equipment -- if, in fact, that's what they're going to do...and we don't know that.
David
but remember! r62a's coming to the 7 is just a rumor. the MTA knows which stock is coming to the 7. fo my opinion it is going to be the r142's because they are going to upgrade corona yard with 142's technology
The R62As are going to the 7 Line. It's going to take a few years for them to get Corona upgraded. Till then R142s/R142As won't be there.
Because of a brake pipe rupture on the 142 Saturday on the 6 ,scrapping of certain redbirds will be delayed. Due to an Inspection of all 142's.Got the Info while working at the East Sunday.
Good. The R46 was 3-5 years old before the truck-cracking problem was raging enough for the R16's to go back into service so the R44's could surrender their trucks.
The difference here my friend is that it was a "standard" brake pipe rupture. It's not something that is isolated to the R142s. Any subway car with brakes could be affected. Perhaps the MTA could dig up some subway car without brakes and then this little problem could be solved. But then, there would be all sorts of other wacky problems.
Th point is it can take several years for a fleet-wide bug to occur, no one has a crystal ball, and then have a massive effect due to the large quantity. I wasn't referring to the isolated busted brake valve problem.
Perhaps the MTA could dig up some subway car without brakes and then this little problem could be solved.
There are 1400 of them. They're called "Redbirds."
I see! So that was the plan all along! How could I be so foolish! The MTA in all of their infinite wisdom is going to do away with cars with working breaks and good technology in favor of the simple and brakeless design! I mean, who needs good cars with brakes when we can have rusty old shells without those pesky brakes and valve ruptures! It's all so clear to me now!
Those Redbirds, is there anything they can't do!
You are so damned sarcastic. Do you remember the R44 disaster ???, the R46 disaster ??? You're logic would have scarpped the R16's and the system would have been ever closer to collapse than it was in the early 1980's. We had shortened trains and entire lettered routes suspended. I TOLD YOU that NO ONE has a crystal ball, not even YOU as to what will happen in 3 years and it is a good isea to keep some not all of which are as rusted out as the R26's.
>>>You are so damned sarcastic.<<<
Thanks. It's a gift. But seriously, calm down. You know the Pig and I love to rag on the Rustbirds. It's fun. As for the R44/46 fiasco, the R142s are no where near that! That little braking problem was fixed, brake valve ruptures can occur on any type of car, yes, even those beloved rusted old shells. And really my friend, I doubt malfunctioning automatic announcments will bring the system to a grinding halt. If it does, perhaps I'm giving NYC too much credit.
As for keeping the Rustbirds around as spares, Train Dude has stated that there will be about seven train sets stored for emergency use. I don't forsee them ever leaving that track.
From what I've heard from hearsay the R10 had truck cracking problems too when new...Sea Beach ballasted track all went well in tests but once on the IND concrete roadbed they didn't hold up...corrections were made and the trucks went on to perform yeoman service on thousands of cars to follow. The cracking story told me by someone outside the rail industry.
From my guru who was a TA car shop supervisor and was originally from the IRT Main shop "the R1-9 truck was the worst truck in the history of railroading" which may have been his personal feelings. He told me (in the early 60's) that a lot of overtime was earned welding those trucks due to cracking. Doesn't change my feelings for those cars though.
I wondered why when I read news clippings about the R46 truck why Rockwell produced a lemon truck when their other product supported thousands of 200 ton locomotives flawlessly. You'd think they'd have superb engineering, unless it was a bureacratic design. Remember the bus bureacracy built...the Grummans?
Heh. The Flxibles that dropped motors all over the highway?
On the R1/9 truck issues in the 60's, from what I heard at Coney the real problem was failure to detect hotboxes until after the entire truck was smoking. That may have also been the logic behind putting them out in open air for better cooling perhaps. But they did have problems as they made it into the early 70's ... each consist seemed to come with a free car inspector inside. And the hammer boys would usually ALSO be found at each express stop just so they'd move out of there. They were "interesting" times. :)
And yeah, the cement bed and half-ties sure did help to amplify the R10's ...
Yep, long live the Thunderbirds! Just where did the inspectors bang their hammers? I get the impression it's much the same as banging the top of a TV set when the picture wasn't right.:-)
Usually the door mechas to move a stuck valve ... the "hammer guys" phrase was more used as a means of torturing those guys - even though you'd be glad to see them and all, job titles prevented you from going back and doing certain things when indication was elusive. But at the time I was on the railroad, things were *so* bad, they'd literally be roving minstrels, stationed at most express stops who'd literally be riding around with bubble gum and bailing wire just to make sure your wreck got out of their territory.
But largely they were there to get doors closed, squirt some oil on journals or beating a brake cylinder so it would let go.
>>>Remember the bus bureacracy built...the Grummans?<<<
Ah, but bureacracy also built the RTS, the best bus ever designed. It's like taking the Triplex, Q-Type, BMT Standard, Gibbs Hi-V, and R32 and rolling them all into one, with a MUCH better look.
Thanks for the tip on the RTS bus. I thought that was strictly private capital/manufacturer thing just like the GMC's of years past that seemed to last so long..these have gone beyond anything I knew in youth..some RTS are at or near their 20th birthday? Or am I thinking of something else.
Hadn't ridden a single NYC bus that felt beaten last time I was there.
There are a few in NYC approaching the big 20, and on e that's already there.
2270 is the oldest RTS in revenue service. It wa built in 1981. It's stationed in SI and is used on school trips.
2660 is a 1982 RTS bus also stationed in SIs Yukon Depot, it can be used whenever, wherever.
PA1751, PA1767, PA1773, and PA1852 are all 1982 suburban RTS coaches stationed out of Queens Village Depot.
PA1826 is another 1982 coach. It was recently reactivated and put in service in Manhattan. To think, a 19 year old bus being re-activated with a new coat of paint while 7 and 8 year old Orions sit in a storage yard. That says something about those old workhorses.
Amazing. Queens Surface just last year retired their RTSs from (I believe) 1980-1981. These were built before A/C became standard so they had the A/C unit bolted onto the back of the bus--it was a very unusual look.
Dan
? how many years before the delay (s ) again ? .........hmmmmmm......!!////////////??
or should the r-142s be scrapped ?? .......... LOL !!!
Here's a little analogy...
Buses : Neighborhood Property Value as Salmonella : SubTalk
I have your Salmonella in my back pocket !!!
yep the new " junkers " the -scrap-ready-made-r142s- prove our point over and over again
the good old redbirds were built better than the new INPORTED junk of today !!! he he he he !
see you in nyc this october south ferry !!!
LOL!!!
OK... I misread the Thread title... I thought it
said Redbird 9 lives (which it DOES); however, I
took it to mean "Redbird (on) 9 (train) Lives"....
Does anyone know if the r110a has been scrapped yet, it would really be ashamed if they (the t/a) were to destroy a really good set of subway cars.
No, it hasn't been scrapped, YET. Not sure where it is though.
Peace,
ANDEE
Last I heard: Pitkin Yard.
Half is at Pikin Yard and the other half at 207 yard.
Robert
I saw all 10 cars at Pitkin Yard last Sunday.
Then they moved the other five to Pikin yard since I was at 207 yard for the R143's dilivers.
Robert
So, whats going to happen to the 110b cars? Are they still running on the ''C''line. A nice place for them would be the J. ALONG with the R143'S of course.
Ok..... Now I would really like to know what's up with the enchanted Q Types that have 9 Lives over at the SBK Yard. They have been moved out of the yard and into a spur, just outside of the junction with the West End at 3rd Avenue. The question seems to be: Are they portected from the scrapper's torch? Other cars have come and gone, but these seem to be holding on. How strange.... I hope these don't outlive the last redbirds! Heh.
What about the SBK yard? Getting upgraded?
-Stef
Stef - how many "Q" types did you see - were they
3-car A-B-C complete set(s) - one or more ---or
just "B" trailer cars that are used in work service
as crew and material storage /transport units;
Can you inform me (& us at the subtalk) as to what
& how many exactly you saw....and were they free
standing or in some sort of work train consist?
Thanks - Joe /NYCMT-EL
These are old workhorses that were sent to the scrap line recently after serving on the old pump train, and no longer have anything salvageable (component wise). The car bodies are in pretty bad shape. Before heading to scrap, they were stored at Coney Island Yard.
-Stef
Stef, the Transit Museum has a hold on these cars.
Well if they can fix them, great, but they're hanging on the scrap line and aren't getting any better. Shouldn't they be at Coney with the other Museum Cars?
Besides much of what made those Q Cars function is gone, and who's going to donate parts, Branford?
-Stef
The hold is for everything below the floor. I don't think they are
interested in the bodies.
You must mean the trucks..... Let'em lie the carbodies to the side of the scrap yard, and transport those trucks down to Coney Island Yard. Sooner or later those Qs are going to be disposed of.
-Stef
"What about the SBK yard? Getting upgraded? "
No, just adding tracks to fill them up with Redbirds, either as mothball storage or as a receiving yard for Redbirds heading for scrap.
Bill "Newkirk"
6351-55 and 6391-95 were transferred to the East a little over an hour ago. 6391-95's floors and seats are still covered with paper. The shop's people fixed them up and it was time to send them home.
-Stef
Stef,
I have both those sets on the Delivery list as having arrived in December 2000. Are you sure those weren't on the property already?
-Dave
The information that you got originally is correct; no change to the delivery page is necessary. What I wrote last night, was in refernce to the cars coming back from 207 St Yard after modifications.
-Stef
2 PICTURES of Pitkin El Demolition.......courtesy of BMTMan
Another piece of the old BMT is diasppearing !
Bill "Newkirk"
Kinda reminds me when I was a kid watching them demolish the Jamaica el at Supthin Blvd while waiting for a Q44 bus to the Bronx zoo.
Besides Karl B and myself I wonder how many others on board here rode the remains of the Fulton el thru that area and out Pitkin and Liberty to Lefferts [the destination signs still said Lefferts AVE not BLVD on the el cars] before the line shut down [April 56].
Do you remember the old side platform station at Crescent & Liberty, and how narrow it was on the ends? I got on several times at Crescent & Liberty to go to Eastern Parkway, or to Bridge-Jay, but I never did ride the train to Rockaway Ave. Standing on that station platform in the winter when the wind was really blowing was one scary experience.
The two curves onto Euclid were something else too!
I always wondered why the TA insisted on calling it Lefferts Ave, when everyone else called it Lefferts Blvd.
i believe you when you say that station was scary. i use to hold on for dear life years ago when i use to wait for the q cars on the myrtle ave el at broadway and myrtle av. but i am sorry to hear that they are reducing that structure. it is a very impressive structure
You mean there was direct Fulton/Broadway/Lexington Ave. el service at one time?
It was known as the Fulton-Lex Line, and ran from Bridge-Jay St to Grant Ave. During rush hours they operated six car trains of the 1300 series BU's. Some trains ran through to Lefferts Ave. Trains were put together and taken apart on the center track east of the Grant Ave station.
It was very similar to the rush hour Lexington Ave Line operation at 111th St and Jamaica Ave, except that the Lex ran five car trains of 600, 900, 1200 & 1400 BU's.
This ended with the closing of the Lexington Ave el structure on Oct. 13th, 1950.
Didn't 1000 convertable BUs once run on the Lexington Line???
If they did it had to be before my time, I can only remember back to about 1941! I never saw them there, and don't recall ever seeing pictures of them on the "Lex".
Again refer to the Brooklyn Elevated Book...nothing in railroading is ground in stone! Although the 1000's were basically Southern cars they served on Eastern lines as well. There's a photo of one on the Broadway-Brooklyn el which would have been a Lex train; think there's also a shot of one on Fulton.
They were scrapped before Karl B's time or my time.. at least memory period but it has been done.
I remember Crescent [on Liberty] well enough but don't remember the narrow platforms at the end. I think that was a cheap way of extending platforms done long ago; I've seen similar in Manhattan el pix, since you mention it.
I always found it interesting that in addition to the Crescent St curve on Bway-Jamaica line being an S curve the Fulton had one in the same general vicinity..not far away. Think the Fulton one was gentler?
Don't forget the only 1400 BU's around were I believe l448 and 1482 which were rebuilds from other types, all real 1400's became Q's. Also 1261 and another 1200 were similar.
I expect that the Lefferts AVE signs were a carryover from years past that were never changed. A lot of streets/avenues in Queens were renamed Boulevard at some time if I'm not mistaken.Some pop singer in the 60's--one of Frankie Laines' last records perhaps, if it was he, did a number called "Every Street's a Boulevard in old NY"...when I heard it I though he must have spent all his time in Queens.
I know that BU's 1227, 1240, 1246, 1254, 1261, 1282 & 1286 were all painted green in the late 1940's. There were a number of other 1200's, but they were still painted brown, and until they were painted green I did not try to keep track of them back then. Of the green cars 1261, 1282 & 1286 must have been renumbered cars since the original cars with those numbers went into the C & Q conversion program. I'm sure that there were more that I don't know about. About 75 of the 1200's were rebuilt into either C's or Q's.
I remember 1448 & 1482 as being the only cars carrying 1400 numbers in those days. Both were green, and if I remember correctly, they both had foldover seating like the 1300's, but they were definately not convertibles.
Photo in The Brooklyn Elevated book shows one of those ersatz 1400's with the walkover seats. They were wood...no cushions; likewise they weren't convertibles as you say. Believe the arch roof 1000 series had wood seats too.
Thank heavens for the green paint job. Had those cars looking good until the end of their lives.
Thanks for posting the photos.
Looks like one girder may remain for awhile
since a signal cable runs along it.
I don't mean to appear to be without sentiment but what's the big deal? That section hasn't been used since 1956! I'm all for preserving Els but with one caveat; it has to be in use. Otherwise you're just left with huge chunks of steel that serve no useful purpose.
E_DOG
how far along are they with demolition and when do they expect to have the manhattan bound track re:located. i am not in traveling distance to nyc to see the changes. thanks for any info that can be provided. "jv"
Today's edition of the Destination:Freedom Newsletter talks about high speed rail for Florida, and the tentative schedule for a fifth Acela Express round-trip between Boston and NYC beginning July 9th.
And I thought this was going to be a weather report! I wanted to know why they clock the speed of rain in Florida and what constitutes a high speed rain.
Must have been one of those Freudian slip typos. "Rain" could have been "Train" or "Rail."
Yeah, it rains at high-speed in Florida, but most everywhere else too. According to the Glossary of Meteorology (second edition) (American Meteorological Society; 2000; Todd Glickman, Editor), the terminal velocity of a raindrop is about 12 meters per second. Thunderstorm downdrafts can reach 100 knots in the most severe storms, and will "push" rain down as well.
In case you were wondering, drizzle drops measure <=0.2mm and raindrops are >0.2mm.
Rain (and wind) velocity can be measured by Doppler radar, just like the speedometers on the subway measure speed (WHEW! CONNECTED ON TOPIC!).
The thing that the article didn't mention is that if they want really fast trains, I have 3 suggestions:
1) ELECTRIFY
2) ELECTRIFY
3) ELECTRIFY
The problems with Diesels is that they must not only carry their own power plant, but they must carry their own fuel as well (which adds more mass, thus makes a train go slower). Plus The Acela Express could go from Boston to Miami if electrified, and after that, once all of The Acela trainsets are in, then that will free up The Toasters for other duties.
I believe an incremental approach is the only way anything will happen. Get the trains running first; electrify later.
With new subway cars coming online and into service. R-142/ 142a and eventually R-143's. Where is the TA storing the Red Birds that were replaced so far? Non of them are off the TA property already are they? Or is the Subway service expanded that much that the Red Birds are still being used? Any info would be helpful......
A certain transfer point in brooklyn (behind COSTCO) is getting extra tracks added for the last movement of the redbirds. (Sniff Sniff)
Right now, the birds seem to still be in place. Why? The R-142's still have enough problems that you might need them one day, but not the next.
While I do hate them birds, It would be a good idea to keep about 100 or so for expanded service: 5 extra Lex trains, 5 extra 7th av trains. Plus, the TA is already going to net a gain of something like 120 extra cars from the R-142 order.
Cars 7834-39 are already being stripped in 207th St yard.
4 GE R-32's were on the next track in the shop, and the worlers said these were probably being fixed. I had just seen the other 6 coupled together moving around the yard outside.
"Cars 7834-39 are already being stripped in 207th St yard."
You wanna run that by me one more time !
Bill "Newkirk"
True. The bodies are propped up on stands, and they were *tearing* out the lights and wiring. The AC/s were all opened up, the doors and window frames gone. The workers said they were being stripped for good, while the workers on the 4 GE 32's said those were probably being fixed.
They Are going to store them in the ocean. NO kidding!
Where have all the Redbirds gone,
long time passing.
Where have all the Redbirds gone,
long time passing.
They have gone to Davy Jones Locker,
long time passing.
Where have all the Token Booth Agents gone,
long time passing ....
Any one else remember that folk song ?
Mr t__:^)
"Any one else remember that folk song ?
Mr t__:^)"
"Where Have All The Flowers Gone ?"
written by Pete Seeger, sung by The Kingston Trio and others.
Bill "Newkirk"
yes i do on my transistor pocket radio back in the early 1960s !!!
That's the one ... it ends with "gone to grave yards every one",
opps that's the next to last. The last is "gone to flowers every one", but in this case "gone to the fishes every one".
Mr t__:^)
Can somebody please tell me why I am not able to click onto the Archives without getting a reload message???? It's been going on for a week!! T on the F......
The archives are offline and will remain so for a while. I don't have the server capacity to serve them all. Sorry!
Maybe you can sell the archives on a CD!
When (and if) you ever bring the archives back, please let us know.
- Lyle Goldman
There is an LIRR station in Garden City on the Hempstead line called "Country Life Press." How did this station get its name?
Yes, there is such a station on the Hempstead branch. It was and it is used by employees of the Country Life Press publishing company. I think there is more details about it in the LIRR History web site.
www.lirrhistory.com
That must be some publishing company, to warrant its own LIRR station!And when you think that whole communities, like Ozone Park and Woodhaven, have no LIRR service at all....
And when you think that whole communities, like Ozone Park and Woodhaven, have no LIRR service at all....
Well...those aren't exactly Long Island communities at all, but Western Queens neighborhoods which are (under)served by the subway. You might as well complian that Sunset Park has no LIRR service. I'd chose, say Levittown (well, that was William Levitt's own fault) or East Meadow or something as an LIRR-less LI comunity.
:-) Andrew
Remember that the LIRR was a private company before the MTA took over the railroad, so making train stations was not some bureaucratic nightmare. Stations were set up for different reason, some to get the wealthy to the golf courses in Bethpage or beach goers in the Rockaway and Manhattan Beach.
It is one of Garden City's 4 stations (from Nassau Blvd).
5 if you count Merilon Avenue.
:-) Andrew
Yes, but I'm surprised its been kept open all these years. Does the Country Life Press Publishing Co. even exist anymore?
IIRC when this topic arose several months ago someone said that Country Life Press was acquired by Doubleday. Don't know if Doubleday kept the name or merged it into its own operations.
Does Doubleday still exist ? I would have assumed not.
Does Doubleday still exist ? I would have assumed not.
It does, though as an imprint of another publishing company (possibly Random House, I'm not certain) rather than as a separate company. There are editorial or back-office operations located adjacent to the Country Life Press station, although I believe the printing operations have moved elsewhere. I don't know what ridership at CLP is like, although given the shortage of station parking especially in Nassau County it's a safe bet that the station lot, however large it may be, is filled to capacity each weekday.
That triangular parking lot north of the station is the only unrestricted station parking in Garden City. I used to park there once a week so that I would go straight to Hofstra at night from work. The lot gets crowded, but no overwhelming.
Doubleday is owned by Random House, and Random House is owned by Bertelsmann.
And in 1911, not many people had cars; demand was probably relativly high.
According to Seyfried, Doubleday, Page & Co. purchased 40 acres to build a publishing plant in 1910. In 1911 the LIRR opened the station called Country Life Press to serve the plant.
Story on CNet.com:
http://news.cnet.com/news/0-1004-200-6181325.html?tag=mn_hd
What will become of the connection from 6th ave to the 53rd St line?
Will it be held for emergency use only, or will it be abandoned, like the connection between the Williamsburgh Bridge and the 6th ave. line? I read somewhere that some lines in the system will be abandoned, and I did see evidence of track removal at Broadway station on an unused stub track, but where else will there be an end of service? All of that subway right of way must be useful for some kind of transportation, so why abandon it? What next?
The new (V) train will follow the 6th Ave/53rd St route.
:-) Andrew
When the Manhattan Bridge work is done, and full serivce is restored, what then? What other lines will be abandoned in the system?
I don't think the (V) train has anything to do with the Manhattan Bridge. It'll be what it is no matter what that line is doing.
If anything, a full Manny-B service restoation would mean that more trackage would be in use, not less.
:-) Andrew
I sure hope so, because I cannot stand to see tracks and tunnels wasted. What about the tracks on the Nassau street line, and those tracks that are not in use on the J, the M, and a few other places?
The Nassau St-Manhattan Bridge route was permanently severed by the Chrystie St. connection back in 1967.
There are no plans to use the Chrystie St/Williamsburg Bridge connection, as far as I know, but it's still there. Possibly they use it for non-revenue movements.
A total restoration of Manhattan Bridge would mean that the north side would be served by the (B) and (D) to/from 6th Avenue while the south side is served by the (N) and (Q) to/from Broadway.
:-) Andrew
No way to even partially re-connect that route? Even for an unforseen emergency? Well, you never miss the water until the well runs dry.
They will be converting the Nassau Street Line to a double tracked line. They will be using the South-Bound Broad Street side. If anyone gets confused, that'd be the direction J/Z Trains travel toward Broad Street.
That conversion (two track J)is a line item in the 2002 capital budget. It will be open for discussion at an MTA Hearing Wednesday, June 6 at 4:30PM at 347 Madison Av, NY 10017.
If anyone's interested, go to the hearing and speak. Also, you can turn in comments in writing for the record.
What will happen to the Northbound side? It could serve as storage space for layup trains during the lull after the am rush, right?
How about keeping the route in case of a G.O. which would close the other route? Think contingency plan, guys.
The MTA plans on removing platforms and track to reduce aintenance requirements. I do not know what the law says about requirements for maintaining facilities; this may, in part be driving just how this gets done.
These are old stations; MTA's shutting down part of the pedestrian area will allow the agency to better secure the station and deter crime and vandalism. Still, I like contingency track, too.
OK, so you have a chance to talk about it Wednesday 4:30 at the hearing.
Well couldn't a set of those tracks be used by the 2nd Avenue subway?
Theoretically, yes. Would you like to bring it up at the hearing, or write to MTA, and ask?
Sure I would. O.K, lets say the T.A decided to use those tracks,where could the ideal connection be placed? Just before Canal Street or at Chambers Street?
I don't know. I guess it depends on what you're trying to accomplish. Why not work out both scenarios in your head, and present them at the hearing, or in a letter. If you send a letter, write in your letter that this is your testimony, or written response for the record, intended for the subject of the hearing.
Published option by MTA is to connect at Kenmare St., so 2nd Ave Subway wouldn't stop at Grand.
Arti
I have written to MTA to ask what the impact would be, in their opinion, of the Nassau Street reconfiguration, to this option. I have also spoken to the Assembly Speaker's office and the Straphangers, who will be attending the hearing today.
[I have also spoken to the Assembly Speaker's office and the Straphangers, who will be attending the hearing today. ]
What was their opinion?
Arti
[Theoretically, yes. Would you like to bring it up at the hearing, or write to MTA, and ask? ]
There's no need, because MTA is already evaluating, as one option for the full lenght 2nd Av subway a connection to Nassau Street line at Kenmare St.
Arti
"There's no need, because MTA is already evaluating, as one option for the full lenght 2nd Av subway a connection to Nassau Street line at Kenmare St."
Wrong, Arti. They are considering it, which is good, but that does not mean they don't need to hear from you. Go to the hearing and give them your opinion about it, and about using or not using the spare tracks on the Nassau St line. Or write a letter. You spend enough time posting here, don't you (esp responding to my posts :0))? Add another few minutes, an envelope and a postage stamp and help make a difference!
[Wrong, Arti. They are considering it, which is good, but that does not mean they don't need to hear from you. ]
I honestly don't have an opinion wether they should use Nassau St or Water St. The reason being that I have no data. MTA is doing a study and they will have the data. There are enough stupid uninformed opinions they have to waste their time on, so I'm not going to add one more. Time to comment on 2nd Ave. subway would be when the study becomes public.
Arti
OK, fair enough. You're a man of integrity.
Thank you!
Arti
No, it will still be used. But by the V line.
Tomorrow I will be journeying to NYC for a day of sub riding and airport picking up. I will be catching the 8:21 NJT train from Hammelton to Newark and the PATH to WTC to meet Pigs of Royal Island. We will then be spending the reast of the day riding around (Redbird lines, N and Q), finally ending up at JFK airport at 7PM to pick up my friend and fellow subtalker Lexcie. I will proceed w/ Lexcie to Penn Station to catch an NJT train to Trenton where he will catch the Twilight SHoreliner to Boston and I will take SETPA back to Philly. If anybody is interesting in joining us or has a sugestion for a line to ride please reply.
The outside wall tracks at Hoyt-Schermoneon Street stop on the A,G and C lines and the middle express track at Bedford-Nostrand on the G line. What were these tracks used for. Did they once connect to each other or used as other reasons? What gives?
>>>The outside wall tracks at Hoyt-Schermoneon Street stop on the A,G and C lines
Used to be used by the Court Street Shuttle which ran between Hoyt-Schemerhorn and Court Street (now the Transit Museum).
>>>>Middle express track at Bedford-Nostrand on the G line.
Always used as a spur track. No express service existed on the G line.
It was used as a spur track but wasn't intended to be used for that originally. In fact, it wouldn't be useful in express service because it connects with the other two tracks both north and south of the station.
Why not abandon one of the side tracks, run trains in that direction on the center track, and use only one island platform instead of two?
The side tracks aren't "abandoned." They are used by the Transit Museum to get fan trip trains in and out of the Museum. Also, the tracks are occasionally used by movie companies who need to have footage of trains operating inside NYC subway tunnels. This was done in "The Taking of Pelham 123" and "Die Hard 3", to name two movies.
As for your other suggestion, I'm not sure how that would work. The side tracks lead only to and from the Court Street station/Museum, and are walled off from the other tracks. You also need to remember that the stations serves two different lines traveling in opposite directions - the Fulton Street line (A/C) and the Crosstown line (G). These lines are not traveling in the same direction even when the trains meet at the same platform. For example, if you take a Smith-9th Street-bound G train from Queens and get off at Hoyt-Schermerhorn and change for the A/C, the A/C will enter the station traveling in the same direction as the G had come, but the A/C is traveling north, towards Manhattan, while the G is traveling south, away from Manhattan. Thus, you can't put those trains on the same tracks.
Sorry, I was referring to the extra track and platform at Bedford-Nostrand on the G.
I'd be hard-pressed to declare either direction on the G as Manhattan-bound. On the (few) occasions I've transferred between G and A/C at Hoyt-Schermerhorn, most of them have been across-the-platform.
Well, I guess that one platform could be closed, but as subway expert Joe Brennan has told me, NYCT doesn't close facilities unless it absolutely has to. Also, its probably cheaper to leave the configuration the way it is than to close a platform and rearrange the switches north and south of the station.
Hopefully at some point in the future a new line will come into existence and use thos tracks, but I fear that I will not be around to see it.
Well, the TA is planning right now to close half of the tracks and platforms on the J/M/Z through Canal and the Bowery. The TA has begun dismantling the extraneous trackage on the L around Atlantic. The TA often closes station entrances and exits.
The switches wouldn't need to be rearranged -- just set them to send (say) southbound trains through to the express track instead of the local track.
This station[Bedford-Nostrand]was going to be a junction for the two Laffayette Ave subway routes. the first was a crosstown routing that we have today,and the other was the Brooklyn-Queens loop line that would have connected to the Myrtle Ave/Central ave line as the local tracks via Stanhope st.[as you guys know , the Myrtle/Central line ran from the South 4 street station] Speacking of this station,were there any other stations planned around this area besides the Broadway station on the Utica ave line?
Hi.
In response to your first question, some history is needed. The original Fulton Street IND line plans, of which the Hoyt-Schermerhorn station was a part, called for the locals to run along Fulton Street and terminate at Court Street (today's Transit Museum) and the expresses to continue on to Manhattan. The locals would have run on the outside (wall) tracks at Hoyt-Schermerhorn and the expresses would've used the middle tracks. As it turned out, when the line opened fully in 1936, all trains, local and express, went to Manhattan because of heavy demand. Not wishing to close the Court Street station before it opened, the Board of Transportation created a shuttle, designated "HH", that ran only between Court Street and Hoyt-Schermerhorn. It saw little used and was discontinued in 1946. The Court Street station was closed and used for commercials and movie shoots until 1976, when the Transit Exhibit opened.
The center track at Bedford Avenue was part of the Utica Avenue extension, one part of the second system of the IND that was never built.
If you go to Utica Ave. station on the A, you will see another part of the Utica Ave. extension, which is the structure that contains the four trackways for that line. Alas, it never was built, and from the looks of things, never will be, either.
I've been to Utica Avenue and have not been able to find any evidence of that "structure." This sounds like "phantom" construction, such as the alleged construction at 2nd Avenue on the F line. All that's there is a higher ceiling - certainly no trackways or anything else.
That "structure" can be identified by the lower ceiling over where it crosses the platforms in use.
Why would the first-system station platforms (the ones in use) be built UNDER (deeper than) the speculative second-system station that has never been and will likely never be used? This forces the passengers at Utica Avenue to climb extra flights of stairs every day for no reason. It also had to be more expensive to sink the tracks of the first system so deep for blocks both east and west of the station.
This is also true at East Broadway (F) where the in-use platform is under the never-built Worth St. line platform, but at least here it may be justified by the Rutgers tubes under the river requiring the extra depth anyway.
It would have made more sense to build the first system closer to the street, with second-system provisions underneath.
I can't really call a higher ceiling a "structure." A provision, maybe. A "structure" is more like the unused Roosevelt Avenue platform.
There is a "shell" for the Utica Ave line crossing the the existing Fulton St. line at Utica Ave. It has provisions for 2 island platforms and 3 tracks. I'm not sure how long it is, probably no more than the width of the existing Utica/Fulton station itself. For years, until I discovered this website, I was fascinated by what appeared as a phantom subway line crossing over the A line here, and the unusually large size of a relatively minor station like Utica/Fulton. Before the TA installed a false ceiling about 5 years ago, the "phantom" subway line was much more obvious.
Please describe what you mean by "shell." Are you referring to a big empty space in the ceiling where platforms and trackways could've gone?
For the most part, thats what it means. There is another shell at the Broadway Station on the G line in Brooklyn, but it is closed off to the public. DAMN!!! I pass by Utica sometimes and I always gaze up at that lowered ceiling at the center of the station. I managed to take a few pictures too, but not that good quality. I know there are one or two sites that I know of dealing with that particular station. If anyone wants them let me know, I still havent figured out how to put links in here yet. If that is possible (?)
That shell at Broadway on the G is what would have been the humungous S. 4th St. station. It has 6 trackways and 4 platforms much the same as Hoyt-Schermerhorn.
"It would have made more sense to build the first system closer to the street, with second-system provisions underneath."
NOT
If you *know* (or leastwise think you *know* that so and such a line is to be built, you would build the first line on the bottom, and then the later line on top, cause it is cheaper and stronger that way.
Unlike most of manhattan, where the first lines in were near the top, (and they were built by private companies who were not going to worry about the ease of construction for those as who would follow (and compete) with them.) It is easier to dig a deeper hole thie first time than to excavate a tunnel under an existing line.
Too bad the second system was never built, but given the changing demographics after WWII would they have been going the right way anyway. For some of them I wonder.
Elias
Too bad the second system was never built, but given the changing demographics after WWII would they have been going the right way anyway. For some of them I wonder.
That’s not an answerable question, since building the subway would change the demographics in itself.
Look where the active line dips low to go under the structure of the station - that is where the trackways are. Look closer, and you will see them, and from time to time, the Electric Railroaders Association has a guided tour to that area so that average folk like us can see the abandoned section up close. A lot of money was wasted building this and many other unused portions of the system. It would be good if it were put to some use to help commuters get to where they must go.
To the best of my knowledge, the ERA has never had tours of that area, for (valid) safety reasons. Until the renovations a few years back, there were blocked-off stairwells from the Fulton Avenue line platforms up to the Utica Avenue line station shell.
In response to another post in this thread, the Fulton Avenue station would have been built at that level anyway, it wasn't built lower (not significantly, at least) because of the Utica Avenue line provision.
There is information about this station shell on Joe Korman's website, The Joekorner. The direct link to the Utica Avenue section is here.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I was on a fan trip a couple of years back ( I believe the trip was the farewellto the R-10 ) and I asked one of the guys who was working as a guide about that very station ( Utica Ave ) and he told me that from time to time the ERA ( of which he was a member ) had tours of that and other unused portions of the subway. I can only go by what he told me, and that is what the man said. Maybe the NY chapter of the ERA could shed some light on this.
According to Joe Brennan's site, none of the Utica Avenue line was built. It was just provided for. How can they take a tour of that, unless they just went to various platforms and pointed up at the ceilings.
From what the man told me, the tour went up into the abandoned section of the station where the trackways could be seen. According to him, there are four of them, with platforms, but no tracks or signals. He also told me about the Winfield Seabury line in Queens, and there have been tours of that abandoned line. Part of the Utica Ave. line is in existence, but it is not in operation. You can see it at the station. Check the other sites in this web page for confirmation.
Mitch, did you follow the link that I posted in post 226042? Please read it... you'll answer your own question.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
What exactly are "tehse" tracks?
>>> What exactly are "tehse" tracks? <<<
They are just like "tohse" tracks but are over ehre rather than over tehre. :-)
Tom
As I look back over the old 1966 ERA Bulletins I bought from the Sprague Library, it was so interesting to follow the development of the upcoming Chrystie St. changes. It must have been exciting hearing about the radical reconfiguration of the entire BMT/IND system, and at the same time frustrating to see it pushed back because of community opposition. Then it was interesting seeing the modifications and compromises that were made along the way, and then the final service tht actually began, and later modifications.
Nothing has changed. This was just like today, where we await a pair of changes of equal significance: the essential undoing of the Chrystie St changes when the Bridge flips, plus the 63rd St. connector, which will greatly alter a 60 year old IND pattern.
So here is the development of Chrystie St. The Highlight of the plan was the merging of D and Q service, but the other plans went through some interesting changes.
lineOriginal Plan (4-66)12/66 revisions (phase 1 and 2 combined for Memorial Day ‘67)Actual changes implementedPhase I: Connection opens (9-66)Phase II: 6 Av. Exp tracks open (3-67)Phase III: 57 St. opens (3-68)Phase I, II (11-26-67)Phase III (7-1-68) BB (B)unchangedreplaced by BTBT renamed "B"B—168, rush, W4, midday, Sat.to 57th St all times except rushT expanded to middays to replace TTmiddays& Sat. only, to W 4extended to 57th/6thsametotally eliminated (W4&57th service renamed "B")TTdisc. Except for Night, Sun shuttlereplaced by extended B serviceNassau
SpecialsDiscontinuedRJ service retainedRJ replaced by "RR" to ChambersDrerouted: local on 6Av; exp in Bklyn rush only, to CIexpress on 6AvExp. all weekday in BklynTo Brighton Beach when exp.QJimplemented (Rush only), to Brighton BeachAll weekday to B.B.To Coney IslandQB Rush special not included in original plans5 QJ's designated as QB (2 more later added)designates Continental-Whitehall serviceRenamed "QM"redesignated as "EE"Q["Super"]: rerouted to Sea Beach exp.Renamed "NX"Discontinued (4-12- 68)KK(14)Unchangedto 57th St.sameunchanged;
on maps as "JJ"KK appears: 168th Jam.-57th St.
M(10)UnchangedTo 57th ("MM")sameExtended to Broad (MM never implemented
There was a lot of opposition from South Brooklyn on the reroutes to 6th Ave and everyone got over it; now it's the other way around. The only problem I can see is the Grand St. thing...everything else can be worked around.A set of crossovers south of Grand for relaying trains northbound and service into Grand would change that problem but how long to build them and would they do it?
The only thing about Chrystie that really disturbed me was that the KK to Jamaica didn't catch on. Despite the feel of being slow it could have matched the E and F times close enough from lower Manhattan and would have alleviated a lot of the Queens Blvd. overcrowding. All that money spent and now the tracks are unused for passenger service. It's hard to change the public's riding habits.
It wasn't given a decent chance. From what I heard, it ran horribly and people changed to the F anyway. Also, having to run shorter cars would make it a low priority. Like now, they would not want to clog up the overpopulated F with short trains that hold less people, so options like running the V to the Eastern Div. (Which I heard was the original idea) are out.
So I say it should be tried evenings and weekends when Nassau St. is practically unused and midtown (which the eastern div. has no direct access to) is the main destination. This should attract riders who otherwise take cars/car service or avoid Manhattan altogether
A couple of questions i would like to ask etc. Which stations are the ones used by the MU cars ?? How far do they go ??
The reason why is because I understand there is some sections the MU cars cannot go because they are served by diesel service only !!! ( no third rail electric service there ) @ you know the rest of the story !! What are the end of the line stations for the MU cars on the LIRR??
I am going to shoot video of as many of the LIRR lines as possible thats some of the reasons why I wanted to know !!
We would really appreciate any good information here is possible thank you...
In approximate west to east order, the terminals are :
1. Far Rockaway
2. Port Washington
3. Long Beach
4. Hempstead
5. West Hempstead
6. Huntington (line continues as the diesel Port Jefferson Branch)
7. Ronkonkoma (line continues as diesel to Greenport)
8. Babylon (line continues as the Montauk Branch)
Although the Oyster Bay Branch splits off from the Main Line at Mineola and is strictly diesel, I believe that the electrified rails extend north to the Albertson station.
It would be very time comsuming to sit and list all stations that the MU's pass through. You can check the MTA website, which is linked from here and you can visit www.lirrhistory.com maintained by Bob Anderson for more info.
If you want a treat (and can get up early enough) you can take the 6:49 AM electric MU from Huntington to Hunters Point Avenue. I believe that its the only electric that goes to HP. No PM electics.
The 3rd rail I believe goes about 12 car lengths north of the scissor crossovers north of East Williston. It's still quite a gap to Albertson.
Shortly after the Ronkonkoma electrification, the Huntington - Hunterspoint service went from a 10 car MU to 6 car diesel push-pull due to a perpetual MU shortage and ridership diversion off the Port Jeff line. I wasn't aware that it reverted back to MU.
All LIRR passenger lines are now electric EXCEPT:
Oyster Bay branch north (east) of East Williston
Port Jefferson Branch east of Huntington
Ronkonkoma Branch (Main Line) east of Ronkonkoma
Montauk Branch east of Babylon
That is the major diesel only trackage. Also, a few trains operate on two branches which have no intermediate stations:
The Old Montauk line in the city from Long Island City to Jamaica
The Central Branch extension from east of Bethpage station to Babylon (BETH tower to Belmont Junction)
Quite a bit of trackage sees regularly scheduled electic AND diesels (whether they stop or not):
The Main Line between Penn and Bethpage
Oyster Bay Branch between Mineola and East Williston (one stop)
The Port Jefferson Branch between Hicksville and Huntington
The Montauk (Babylon) Branch between Jamaica and Babylon
If I missed something, I'm sure someone will notice.
I really do enjoy ur videos. I currently own the 2,5 redbird video and 7 video. I hope u get some good LIRR videos.
MU lines
1. Anything going to NY penn or Flatbush Av brooklyn
2. Babylon branch
3. Far Rockaway
4. Long Beach
5. Port Washington
6. Hempstead
7. West hempstead
8. Port Jefferson branch. MU's go to Huntington only!
9. Ronkonkoma. Anything going to Greenport LI is Diesel territory.
Diesel territories
1. Port Jefferson(Anything beyong Huntington)
2. Oyster bay
3. There is one Diesel Train to Ronkonkoma that starts from Long Island City Daily at 5:29 weekdays only
4. Anything East of Babylon. This means Trains to Patchogue,Speonk and Montauk
That is all I believe. E to JAMAICA CENTER, Subtalk news. Back to you in the studio.
BY THE WAY, IF I AM INCORRECT, PLEASE ALERT SALAAM ALLAH AT ONCE AND ALERT ME AS WELL.
TRACK 7 YOU HAVE THE ALL ABOARD
3. There is one Diesel Train to Ronkonkoma that starts from Long Island City Daily at 5:29 weekdays only.
Isn't that train an electric departing from Hunterspoint? There is third rail in both Hunterspoint and L.I.C.
Long Island City Station has no platform for the MU trains, so diesels are the equipment that runs out of there. There are third rails on some tracks, but not where the passenger trains for revenue runs load passengers. You will see replacement brake shoes on the sides of the tracks from time to time. Hunterspoint Station has a platform for MU trains, and I have seen MU trains at that station on occasion. A few Diesels ( two in the morning, three in the evening ) run on the Montauk branch in Queens, and that line is not electrified. The others run down the main line, and the show they put on is fantastic. Kew Gardens Station ( the place of the infamous Kitty Genovese murder years ago ) is a good vantage point.
3. There is one Diesel Train to Ronkonkoma that starts from Long Island City Daily at 5:29 weekdays only.
Isn't that train an electric departing from Hunterspoint?
Correct. It connects at Jamaica with the 5:23 to Long Beach, and stops at Mineola, Hicksville, and then all stops to Ronkonkoma. It also offers an amusing insight into mob psychology. The connecting train (the 5:23) leaves from Track 16 at Penn, and is followed on that track by the 5:41 express to Ronkonkoma. When the 5:23 leaves, there invariably are a couple of hundred people waiting on the platform for the 5:41. If these people instead took the 5:23 and changed at Jamaica, they'd arrive at Ronkonkoma about ten minutes earlier than if they'd taken the 5:41. In addition, they'd have a much more comfortable ride - the 5:23/connection is less than half full after Farmingdale, while the 5:41 is SRO all the way to Ronkonkoma.
Train #2068 departs Hunters Point at 5:29 PM. It's 12 car MU. As coincidences go - I rode that train this evening - It's a local & it sucks.
Hunters Pt - Jamaica - Mineola - Hicksville - Bethpage - Farmingdale - Wyandach - Deer Park - Brentwood - Central Islip & Ronkonkoma, Change at Ronkonkoma for the train to Greenport stopping at ..............................................................
Train #2068 departs Hunters Point at 5:29 PM. It's 12 car MU. As coincidences go - I rode that train this evening - It's a local & it sucks.
Do you take it often? I generally take it two or three times a week (boarding at Jamaica), other weekdays I go from Patchogue.
Now, I disagree completely with your opinion of the train. It may make a lot of stops, but it gets emptier with each one, and generally I can get the perfect seatmate* by Bethpage or Farmingdale, at the latest.
* perfect seatmate = empty seat.
Actually it's the 2nd time I took it. I found the perfect seatmate too. About 5'10" around 40D and friendly.
All kidding aside, I have found the 4:44 to Patchogue I great train. Oddly enough though, I'm starting to like the Hunter's Pt. Station. For anyone into train-watching - I haven't found a better spot than the east end of the station. Tomorrow it's back to the good old 5:10 from Penn Station - One seat to islip.
All kidding aside, I have found the 4:44 to Patchogue I great train. Oddly enough though, I'm starting to like the Hunter's Pt.
Station. For anyone into train-watching - I haven't found a better spot than the east end of the station. Tomorrow it's back to the good old 5:10 from Penn Station - One seat to islip.
You're right about the 5:10, it's a pretty good train. I ride it maybe once every other week or so - while I go from Patchogue one or two days a week, the 5:10's a bit too early for my work schedule. Does it still stop in Babylon on Fridays only?
5:10 Stops in Babylon every day. BTW - If you want another reason to ride the 4:44 - check out the engineer some time.
thanks for all of the great information here !! i guess i wll have a lot of fun shooting this on video and digital stills !!!
right on !!!
Why would one want to check out the engineer on the 4:44? What is the attraction or do I have to ask.
It's OK to give one a compliment if deserved.
Maybe a centerfold candidate?
Curt
Suffice it to say in aworld of 2s and 3s - a true 7.5 can look like a 10.
RodgerThat! She must be one good looker than. Have you told her that yet. A kind word can go a long way.
Burn the Slow Orders
Curt
Diesel territories
1. Port Jefferson(Anything beyong Huntington)
2. Oyster bay
3. There is one Diesel Train to Ronkonkoma that starts from Long Island City Daily at 5:29 weekdays only
4. Anything East of Babylon. This means Trains to Patchogue,Speonk and Montauk
#3's already been discussed. There's one more diesel-line: the Central Branch from Bethpage to Babylon.
O.K. since there has been a poll going on for everybody's favorite subway fleet, it has remained exclusive to New York. So now it's the rest of the world's turn? IMO, The PATCO fleet is the most successful, and The Almond Joy is my favorite. Now Philly, Boston Chicago, it's your turn.
Let's expand your horizons a little: how about including out of the country (United States) subway systems as well?
I'd have to say it's a tie between 1938 tube stock and type A subsurface stock on the London Underground.
-Robert King
I agree with you right there. I think Toronto's fleet looks cool as well.
Now that I'm home from work, I can write a more comprehensive piece as to why those are my favourite subway cars that exist outside of New York city:
In terms of looks with respect to subway cars (which disqualifies PCC streetcars immediately), I'd have to say that some of London Underground's equipment from the O stock to the R stock on the subsurface lines and the 1938 stock wins pretty much hands down over pretty much anything else with the excellent industrial design that was taking place during the 1930s and 1940s when those trains were built.
In terms of successfulness all of those London Underground stocks, including the 1960 A subsurface stock which doesn't quite have the impressive visual quality of the others, have had very lengthy lives providing reliable service. The A stock is about 40 years old and has jsut been overhauled now, so it should continue to provide reliable service for another 10 to 20 years, putting the trains between 50 and 60 years of age at retirement, which is why I'd nominate it for being the most successful subway car type exisiting outside of New York where other long lived types of subway cars could be found, even if it doesn't look as good as the earlier O or P stocks.
Toronto subway cars: They aren't too bad but most of the 75 foot equipment with the body style used between 1965 and 1974 have been retired from service, leaving trains that have the distinctivly boxy ends, as opposed to the flowing contours around the destination sign and the marker lights that traced around those areas and the edges of the subway car's body near the top. The TTC's fleet has diminished somewhat in terms of appearnce in recent years. I don't know if you've seen pictures of the Gloucster cars. They were probably the most unique subway cars to run on this continent that were built large quantity, instead of small prototype quantities of a handful of cars.
-Robert King
In Chicago, I'll vote for the venerable 4000s fleet, specifically the "plushies", cars 4251-4455, built by the Cincinnati Car Company in the mid-twenties. They served for half a century on virtually every line in the city.
I'd have to agree on the 4000s for Chicago. I really have to admit that I've never really liked the PCC elevated cars.
-Robert King
My favorite are the cars on Montréal's Orange line. I don't know any details of their model, etc., but I think there's something cool about the rubber-wheeled cars.
they are reliable i agree to you on that. i don't remember who it was that made them but i think it was either budd or a french or german company that build them. i know it wasn't bombardier. if could of been alsthom or adtranz or somebody don't remember who. they are very secretive on that
I'll vote for the 600's of the Ferrocarriles de Cataluńa, which operates as a subway in Barcelona and as an interurban outside the city, on the lines to Sarriŕ, Tarrasa, and Sabadell. These cars, 28 in number, were built over a period of 25 years (1953-1978); they were sold in the mid-'90s to Cuba for continued service on the former Hershey Interurban lines. I rode the earlier ones in the series on a regular basis when I lived in Barcelona as an exchange student (the newer ones were built after I lived there).
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I'd have to say the Philly Bridge Line units-beautiful thirties styling and interiors to rival the Bluebirds-except these cars actually provided decades of reliable service.I rode them over the bridge as a kid in 1960-I took the train from NY to Philly just to ride their transit system when I as 14-back then you could still do that in relative safety.
That's a good pick too. I've never got to ride them when they were on The Bridge Line (was just a baby then), but I did get to ride them when they became The Broad Street Cars (a little trivia, The Bridge Cars were the only Broad Street cars that were owned by SEPTA and not The City).
Anybody old enough to have the good forune to ride the original Market St cars? 1907-15 I believe? They were grand evn if they probably never topped 30 MPH. So it felt.
The late O. Winston Link had demanded that NS convey N&W Class A 2-6-6-4 #1218 to the city of Roanoke for inclusion in the railroad museum as a prerequisite for his participation in the museum. NS announced today that they came through.
press release
I spoke with the TO of the PATCO train that I took Sunday from Philly to Lindenwold (after he finished talking with the woman with the bicycle who rode from Broadway Camden to Woodcrest). He said the 57,000 concrete ties have been delivered, but PATCO is trying to pick a contractor to do the work. The job is expected to begin in 2002 and take up to a year.
PATCO employees can replace 20 ties per shift.
PATCO people were working on the east end switch of the short center track between Haddonfield and Woodcrest on Sunday.
photos
I've heard this too, along with a report that ties are piling up at Lindenwold. Those wooden ties have held up well over almost 33 years of service!
But the ride is FAR bumpier than it was 29 years ago when I started riding PATCO daily. I suspect they're deferring minor trackwork because of the impending tie replacement.
I was comming home at midnight and I saw tie work on the W/B track right before the eastern poartal of the Mickle St. tunnel.
Those wooden ties have held up well over almost 33 years of service!
Unfortunately now it's the 33 years part that more evident than the holding up well part.
A multi-alarm fire over the weekend destroyed the Kleet lumberyard in Huntington. News reports say the fire burned for almost 12 hours before being brought under control. Although the LIRR's Port Jefferson line runs along the lumberyard's southern edge, service wasn't affected thanks to the long-scheduled weekend trackwork with substitute bus service. As far as I know regular train service was back to normal on Monday.
Two notes of interest: Newsday said that an LIRR train stored on a nearby track suffered some damage, with one car having some windows (or, more likely, window frames) melted. Kleet's some distance east of Huntington station, I didn't realize that the storage track extended that far. In addition, I expect the demise of Kleet to be a blow to NY&AR, as it was one of their larger freight customers.
Tomorrow (Tuesday) I plan to take the train from Stony Brook, so I should be able to get a good look at the damage.
The storage track was extended years ago and goes up to a switch that is probably 10 feet from Park Avenue. I'm not totally sure but I konw that the extension was put in prior to the train wreck at Park Ave. when a PJ shuttle hit a "low-boy" type trailer that had wedged on the crossing like a teeter-totter. It happened at dusk and the trailer had no running lights. The front-end loader landed, ironically, in Kleet's yard and the Power-Pack ended up facing east alongside the yard. I recall that one of the electrics that was parked there for the weekend was damaged. Therefore the extension must be about 15 y/o.
Dave can put this to the delivery notes page, this set is in service as of today, 6/05/01. Make that train set #7 to be in service. KHI, are you listening?
It just so happens the set was passing by in the midst of a railfan window adventure at 3:30 in the morning with the train going south.
-Stef
7401-10 are on the property and working. I spotted them running northbound towards the East (180th St) a few moments ago....
The 142s and 142As are coming in fast and furious.
This concludes another installation of ADVENTURES FROM THE RAILFAN WINDOW.
Perhaps, I should adopt a new handle. Mr. Insomniac probably fits since I haven't gone to sleep and have chosen to have these railfan adventures in the middle of the night. Shame on me!!!
-Stef
I just saw one going down Broadway to be delivered. It turned onto VCP South so I'm not sure what yard it exactly was being delivered to. Anyone know? 207th St.? 180th St.?
239th Street Yard on the 2 Line.
-Stef
Glad to hear it. I'm also glad that the brake pipe rupture on one R142A last Saturday hasn't sidelined the entire fleet. Now let's see how soon more of them go into service.
That train with the brake pipe rupture 7281-7290 is back in service as of today 6/7/01
"That train with the brake pipe rupture 7281-7290 is back in service as of today 6/7/01"
Speaking of RUPTURE !
Sung to the tune of That's Amore.
Whennn...you get out of bed and your balls feel like lead.....it's a rupture..........
Bill "Newkirk"
i listening attentively. they are coming in like wild fire. too bad salaami isn't gonna like it (salaam im kidding around not arguing if you read this)
Don't get him started.
6336-45 did one run soutbound with passengers, but came back light later on.
-Stef
The r142s made by Bombodier have worked flawlessly since I've ridden them, with the exception of my sunday night ride to gunhill. The train sat at Bronx park east for ten minutes while the conductor was trying to open the doors. He eventually got it, I think most of the problems are human error with these cars. I remember when the redbirds were first rebuilt, back then some of us use to call them rebuilds, we never thought about the name redbirds. Anyway when these cars came back into service after there overhaul. A lot of motor men and I do mean alot would drive these cars fast and overshoot the stations alot. It took sometime for the t\os to get used to the cars again, but they eventually did. My point, everybody just needs time to get use to the new equipment.
i so agree, however most humans think backwards. they think that everything new must be trouble free. they never learn
Daily News story
That story is scary. Although I am not in favor of open antagonism between a union and management for its own sake, and sometimes union politics cause union leaders to make unrealistic demands, when defeated union leaders immediately change hats and are given management jobs, it makes one wonder which side they were really on in their former jobs.
Tom
Sometimes while riding the LIRR, I will hear a crew member asking another crewmember to "switch to Channel 4." Is that a private intra-train channel for the crew only? And if so, why isn't it always used?
Sometimes while riding the LIRR, I will hear a crew member asking another crewmember to "switch to Channel 4." Is that a private intra-train channel for the crew only? And if so, why isn't it always used?
That's exactly what it is. I suppose the crew doesn't use it more often because each crewman has to be in a conductor's booth to use it.
It's not exactly private, it's just a channel on the radio. Normally, the radios are tuned to the road's frequency (channel 1,) crewmembers go to a radio and use channel 4 when they need to communicate with one another.
161.535MHz for channel 4, 160.380MHz for channel 1.
Mark
From today's Times: Two male high school students in Chappaqua have been charged with harassment for posting a Web site that listed the names, phone numbers and alleged sexual exploits of dozens of their female classmates, law enforcement officials said today.
I know one Chappaqua resident who must have gone carefully through the list with great anticipation
Please help me determine which set of the Chinese characters shown
at my web address
http://home.earthlink.net/~nycsubways/
was on the original Canal St. station signs, before re-tiling of the
walls there.
I remember a single set of the Chinese characters.
I've also been told that they said either "Canal St" in Chinese,
or "Chinatown"
Which do these characters say, and what did the single set say
on the removed signs?
I went to Baltimore last Saturday with my wife to visit the Baltimore Streetcar Museum, among other things. We took PATCO from Lindenwold to 8th and Market, walked through the Gallery shopping mall to Market East, and took a SEPTA regional rail R1 train to 30th Street. I chose not to take NJT Atlantic City line train # 4610 because it was scheduled to arrive at 30th Street at 10:30 and our Amtrak train # 155 was due to leave at 10:32. However, NJT 4610 arrived on track 6 at 10:23 and Amtrak 155 arrived track 5 (across platform) ten minutes later. I did, however, get a chance to get a photo of Amtrak’s yard from the SEPTA regional rail platform. We arrived in Baltimore on time, and had no trouble finding the BSM after a 10 minute walk using SubTalker Dan Lawrence’s emailed directions. The short walk provided a close view of the front of the Genesis unit leading the southbound Silver Palm, which arrived at Baltimore Penn Station during our walk.
At the BSM, we rode two of the streetcars and talked with Dan, who was dispatcher on Saturday. Mrs. Choo Choo Bob wasn’t all that interested in the BSM, so we cut the visit short and walked back to Penn Station, walking on a short portion of abandoned Maryland and Pennsylvania track still present on the shoulder of the street. A ride on the Light Rail took us to Pratt Street (Convention Center station), where we had an excellent lunch at The Wharf Rat brewpub, less than a block east of the station. Then on to Harborplace, walking around to the Rusty Scupper and back, then a Water Taxi to Fells Point. A walk around Fells point and a photo of a “package goods” sign (for another thread) led to the Water Taxi back to Harborplace and a walk back to the Light Rail. This left us with some time to spare, so we rode the Light Rail to Patapsco and back to Penn Station, changing trains at Camden Yards.
I had booked return tickets on train 80, the Carolinian, which was running 90 minutes late, so I had plenty of time to photograph the MARC equipment stored for the weekend, as well as the 2-hour-late northbound Silver Palm and the 45-minute-late southbound Crescent, before boarding train 188 for the on-time return to Philly. The Silver Palm, which left Baltimore 25 minutes before train 188, was at PHL when we arrived.
The better half chose not to walk from 11th to 8th, suspecting that the Gallery might be closed after 9 PM and we’d have to walk outside, so we took the Market Street subway from 30th to 8th and returned to Lindenwold on PATCO.
Suggest right click to open new window for photos taken with digital camera aquired Friday night.
trip to BSM
Photos at BSM
Light Rail, Baltimore Penn Station, trip home
Correction: The street track identified as Ma & PA was actually PRR.
Thanks to an email from Dispatcher Dan Lawrence.
The pictures are fantastic!
Good job with the digital camera.
Chuck Greene
I have a question for chuchubob.
I am interested in the photo of two AEM-7ACs at Wilmington Shop. I can see the first engine is 927, but I can't see the second engine number very well. It looks like either 946 or 948. Do you remember the second engine number?
Chaohwa
Chaohua,
The second AEM-7 was # 946.
Bob
Bob, thank you for the information.
Chaohwa
Bob,
Nice pix. I wish I'd known you were going. Then I could have railfanned with you and tried out my and Mrs. Keystone Pete's new digital camera, while she and Mrs. Choo Choo Bob went shopping or something during the "boring" parts! :O)
Ya gotta come to Rockhill in the fall to see our new track extension. Hopefully it will be wired up by then (the track itself just got done)!
--Pete
Thanks, Pete.
Ya gotta come to Rockhill in the fall to see our new track extension.
I plan to be there for the Saturday of the EBT fall spectacular.
"One six eight is next, step in, stand clear of the closing doors."
That's the announcement I heard yesterday on an R44 on the A. At the time, we were in motion between 175th and 168th.
Did the C/R not notice that the doors weren't open (good thing, that) or is there some sort of time delay feature that the C/R may have inadvertently activated?
He probably just made a mistake.
This wasn't on an R142, was it?
I thought recently expired MetroCards could be traded in at any token booth.
When I tried last week at Dyckman Street on the A, I was handed an envelope.
In no mood to entrust my card to the vagaries of the mail system, and since I was headed towards downtown Brooklyn anyway, I went to 370 Jay, the address on the envelope.
I was told that they couldn't do anything there on-the-spot, but that the token booth downstairs in the station might be able to help. So I went downstairs and, a minute later, found myself holding a brand new MetroCard.
Apparently they can be traded in at token booths after all. So why did I get an envelope at Dyckman?
Now that Transit took away the "Trade-in" option from the MVM, we must place ourselves at the mercy of the station agents.
The MVMs used to take expired cards, too? I didn't realize that. I tried one just to see what would happen, but it spat the card back at me, as I expected.
Yes, David. It took expired cards for trade -in until certain Chevra got smart and manipulated the machine into doling out cards for higher value than those inserted. As soon as Transit realized they were losing revenue, they put an end to this feature at all MVM'S.
What a waste. I liked that feature.
I can understand that someone found a hole in the original programming of the MVMs, so that it was possible to extract extra $$$$ of rides.
I can also understand that the quick fix (that, as a programmer, I would also implement) was to turn the feature off entirely.
What is completely unforgiveable is that the TA programmers didn’t go back and fix the original bug and restore the service. After all, if the ultimate goal is to move to a completely automated environment (and I am sure that this has crossed the mind of some TA bean counter, even if it’s not yet policy), then replacing expired cards has to be part of the machine’s repertoire.
Who knows, maybe the machine should test the stripe for dropouts, quality of recordability, etc, etc, and automatically replace any substandard card.
John.
I know there was a trick or a way to get over on the machine but how was this done? I only heard about it on here and on the news, how did you do it?
Mike
"Mr Mass Transit"
Enlighten me.
I don’t know the trick. My post was just an observation about programming and software maintenance (or in the TA’s case, the lack of it).
John
Choose refill and stick the expired (or less than 30 days until expired) card in. It will tell you it is expired or will expire in x days. Do you want to trade in? Say yes, it spits out your original (since it has no place to keep it) and the new one. Choose receipt and it will clearly indicate you have performed a trade-in operation.
I still miss being able to combine lots of cards, though, just to see how many serial #s can fit on one receipt.
That's exactly what I tried last week.
It told me it couldn't do anything and spat out the old card, sending me on my way.
Really? I did it on Sunday with no problems with a card that expired 12/31/00. Did you try a card that can't be transferred (Unlimited, LIRR or MNRR Mail 'n' Ride, or other special card)? Maybe they're getting rid of that feature too, and didn't get to my stop yet.
This was a standard pay-per-ride card that expired at the end if March. (Yes, this March.) The MVM in question was at Dyckman Street on the A. I tried the machine before speaking to the agent, and neither was able to help.
Did that station first get the MVMs after the regular Trade-in feature was removed? If so it probably never was programmed to perform trade-ins. It's possible the method I stated only works on MVMs that once had the feature but had it partially removed.
They limited the number of trade-ins to 9 cards or $90.00, IIRC.
You can visit your friendly neighborhood station agent. We can combine up to five if the total value is under $100.00.If there is no line we can do five more. After that you have to wait in line and become a new customer.
But only if the cards are within a year of expiration, correct? A few weeks ago I tried to trade-in a card that was 53 weeks after expiration and the agent told me I'd have to mail it in.
Right! up to one year after the expiration date on the back. After that date all monies left on the card is wiped out.
You are out of luck. After one year after exp., the data and value are wiped out, Fahrfalen.
As I said at first -- the friendly neighborhood station agent at Dyckman Street (that's not my neighborhood, but it's a neighborhood) told me he couldn't do a thing. This was with a single card with value $3.00.
It's a shame some TA employees can't be bothered to do their jobs -- it reflects poorly on the TA as a whole.
I am sorry you met one of the less than ideal station agents. Next time you meet a station agent like that one, get the badge number in the window and call it in. The S/A should have tried to fix the card by trading it in.
Was the card damaged in any way? You have up to 365 days after the expiration date of a regular (not unlimited) card to trade in any remaining balance to a new card at any booth. Perhaps the computer was down at Dyckman?
The card was slightly bent, but not along the stripe, and not enough to cause it to jam in the equipment. The Dyckman agent even put it in his machine and told me it had $3 on it (which means the computer was up), but claimed he couldn't do any more. That surprised me; it expired on 3/31/01 and I thought I had a full year after that to redeem it. I wasn't about to argue since I didn't want to miss a train and, as I said, I was going to downtown Brooklyn anyway (I just had to get off the A one stop early).
Look out for a new policy on NOT doing MC trade ins. Why, a problem with too many MC serial numbers active in the system.
I don't have any direct knowledge that they are going to do this, other then what I see in my crystal ball. It's my looks like a duck, quacks like a duck theory.
Mr t__:^)
What about cards that still have money on them at the end of the validation period
If they can't expand the serial number scope, they'll write you a procedure ... a work around.
Mr t__:^)
Why is it that so few people trust the Postal Service?
Okay, I trust the postal service in general. I'm just not thrilled with the idea of sending a MetroCard in the mail for someone to look at and decide what to do with. Just look what happened when I tried to trade it in as per the official policy -- but I was standing there so at least I got the card back. If whoever opened the envelope at 370 didn't know what to do with the card, I doubt I would have ever seen it again.
Why? They would just mail it back.
The problem is not with TA policy, it's that the agent at Dyckman was completely misinformed.
I once sent a card. When it was returned it was a new one, but the enclosed explanation letter said that the original card was never damaged.
There was a kink in the card. Since the card still fit into busses with that, I can only assume that it was the machine in the booth at 63/Lexington that had the problem (I should have tried to refill at 68th or 77th instead of listening to the agent at 63rd).
Suppose a card is OK but gets damaged in the mail. You know who the TA will hold responsible and not refund your money:YOU.
So send the card registered insured mail with return receipt. That should only cost you, what, 15 bucks?
No. the TA would replace the card ANYWAY. As I've already said. Drill a hole through your thick skull.
>>> No. the TA would replace the card ANYWAY. As I've already said. <<<
I guess we all feel better now that you have given us your personal guarantee of what the TA will do. What are the checks and balances that the TA uses to make sure one of their employees who gets an expired card in the mail won't pocket it, destroy the envelope, and turn the card in himself for the value at a token booth?
Tom
thickheadedbuff was talking about a card being damaged in the mail.
HELLO, if you're sending in a card, it's already damaged! And it's not like one has anything to lose by sending it in.
>>> thickheadedbuff was talking about a card being damaged in the mail. <<<
Actually if you re-read transitbuff's post you will see that he was concerned with sending the card to the TA and not trusting the TA to deal honestly with him. This was also the thrust of the earlier message in the thread from David J. Greenberger (post 226054).
But do not worry about it, AP, as you mature you will pick up on these subtleties. :-)
Tom
No. He wasn't complaining about the TA stealing the card, he was complaining about the TA "losing" it. If they did steal it, they wouldn't blame you, they'd just ignore you and say they never got it.
In any case, why would the employee even want the card, they can't be cash refunded and the employees get passes.
I doubt they do this, but the envelopes can be scanned before being distributed, so that the computer would know if there was no return correspondence.
If anyone at the TA looks at where a card was used over the course of a day, here's what will appear for the card I used last Thursday:
EB M86
NB M15 Limited
NB M98
175th Street (A)
181st Street (1/9)
Dyckman Street (A)
Jay Street (A/C/F)
Hoyt Street (2/3)
7th Avenue (D/Q)
Coney Island (B/D/F/N)
Fulton Street (G)
Atlantic Avenue (L)
Wall Street (4/5)
168th Street (1/9/A/C)
SB M98
WB Bx15
125th Street (1/9)
(It's a good thing I don't have a 30-day pass or I'd never get any work one.)
Over the course of the day I took about 100 photographs. Keeping in mind that I'm also a roadgeek, let's see if this board can reconstruct my exact route (including the walks) and what I got pictures of. There are clues in some of my other recent posts.
(Most of the photos are being developed now. When they come back, I can send links to those who are interested. Email only, please.)
There is suppose to be a 126 dips per day limit. I'm still waiting for someone to push that limit.
Mr t__:^)
There is suppose to be a 126 dips per day limit. I'm still waiting for someone to push that limit.
Impossible. There aren't enough minutes in a day.
[Impossible. There aren't enough minutes in a day. ]
Possible, you have forgotten buses.
Arti
Nevertheless, I find the whole thing suspect, just like subway-buff's fictional account of MVMs not accepting more than 17 coins or bills in one transaction.
>>> There is suppose to be a 126 dips per day limit. <<<
That would be more than one swipe each 11 minutes, 26 seconds. If there is an 18 minute waiting period, the maximum dips would be 80 in 24 hours.
Tom
> one swipe each 11 minutes, 26 seconds.
No problem! You can do a subway <-> bus transfer within the 20 minute window, so just go back, forth, back, forth....
126 seems like a rather arbitrary number. Seven-bit counter that stops a little short?
Again, once you use card for a second time within eighteen minutes, you can't use it again for another 18 minutes.
Proof?
We already discussed this. I've done it on a number of occassions. I've swiped in the subway, then dipped on a bus, and then it doesn't work back at the subway.
And no, cards don't store the last two rides, if they do, then the previous ride is not used for anything.
Yes, we've discussed this -- and my experience appears to refute your claim.
I swiped at 175th on the A and rode one stop to 181st, where I walked to St. Nicholas. I swiped at 181st on the 1/9 and rode two stops to Dyckman, where I walked west to the HHP ramps and back east to Broadway. After chatting with the station agent, I swiped at Dyckman on the A. I doubt 18 minutes passed from first swipe to second or from second to third.
Shortly thereafter, I swiped at Jay on the A/C/F. I walked out the other end of the station (I hadn't realized I could walk across the mezzanine outside fare control before swiping in) and, a few blocks later, entered Hoyt on the 2/3. I rode the 2 (which was in the station when I arrived -- no wait) to GAP, walked a few blocks back to 7th Avenue on the D/Q, and entered there. I highly doubt 18 minutes passed between swipes.
In your experiments, did you try to reenter the same station after swiping on the bus or did you go to a different station?
[And no, cards don't store the last two rides, if they do, then the previous ride is not used for anything.]
You don't know what you're talking about !
Mr t__:^)
Then fill me in, instead of making useless commentary on what I know or don't.
[Again, once you use card for a second time within eighteen minutes, you can't use it again for another 18 minutes. ]
Incorrect, swipe into a subway, exit and then use it for a bus, done that, in 2-3 minutes, and it works.
Arti
Incorrect, swipe into a subway, exit and then use it for a bus, done that, in 2-3 minutes, and it works.
Before saying incorrect, learn how to read. I was saying specifically that the card would not work at all for 18 minutes after the second swipe within 18 minutes.
[Before saying incorrect, learn how to read. I was saying specifically that the card would not work at all for 18 minutes after the second swipe within 18 minutes. ]
That's also incorrect, done that too. M101 from 26th to 34th, M34 to Madison, M4 to 38th St., all in less than 15 minutes total trip time.
Arti
Then I was wrong.
Maybe this was the policy back when one couldn't swipe in two different stations within eighteen minutes. I had not tested anything since then.
>>> Maybe this was the policy back when one couldn't swipe in two different stations within eighteen minutes. <<<
Although I have no first hand knowledge, it is also possible that the 18 minute detection software is in subway turnstiles only, and not in bus fare boxes. That would make logical sense, since the main purpose of the 18 minute limit is to prevent more than one person from traveling on one unlimited Metrocard at the same time. Since a bus fare box is under direct observation of the B/O, it would be harder to pass the card from one rider to the next one boarding the bus than in the subway, and there are more likely to be legitimate bus transfers within 18 minutes than subway transfers. Therefore, it is logical that the bus fare box may not read the last time the card was used, nor put a time stamp on the current use.
Tom
Actually there's a limit in bus fare boxes too. M101 from 59th to 45th St., buy stamps, take another M101, "Invalid Card" message, bus driver let's me enter regardless.
Arti
Assuming that there's no limit on # of swipes, and that it takes you 1 minute to do the sub-bus transfer, you can swipe twice every 19 minutes, resulting in about 150 uses of the card. 2.7 cents a ride.
1. If you have a VALUE card, four folks can ride on that card, e.g.
80 X 4 = 240 ... ooooh.
2. What about "swipe again" ... ooooh.
3. Re 126 as a number, how about 655.36 ?
Now look at it another way 65,536 ... ooooh power of two with a decimal in the wrong place. 655.36 is what I call the Cubic "Hiccup"
Mr t__:^)
What is 655.36 for?
I can't imagine why a card would even need such a limit, they can only store the data about the last ride or two, and don't have a clock that tells them when the day is over.
Is this just like not being able to use more than 17 bills or coins in an MVM in one transaction? I believe so.
No .... no .... no. It's not a "official" number.
The farebox will be doing just fine, then for no apparent reason it will "hiccup", i.e. $655.36 will be added to the coin total. They found one cause for this & upgraded the chip in the farebox. So "most" of these hiccups are gone. Or you might see 1,024 1/2 fare students get on one bus, or 32,768 Seniors with MetroCards.
Mr t__:^)
The descriptions on this site of both the 4/5 and the J/M/Z state that there is a complex set of passageways outside fare control between these two stations. Where are these passageways? (Are they open to the public?) I saw no evidence of them.
I think from the north end of the 4/5 you can get into 120 Broadway and from there over to the J/M/Z. Never tried it myself. You can use the 1 C.M.P. concourse to connect from the J/M/Z to the 2/3 at Wall as well.
Yep. I used to work at Chase Plaza. Wall St on both the 2/3 and the 4/5; and Broad St on the J/M/Z connect via the underground passages under Chase Plaza (2/3) Broad Street, and 120 B'way (J/M/Z/4/5)
-Hank
This passageway extended from Fare Control at Broad/Wall northward to a 4/5 transfer via 120 Broadway Building (Equitable).
In addition, you can go to Cedar/Nassau via the Chase Building.
Years ago, another staircase existed at Cedar/Nassau at 140 Broadway.
140 Broadway (Helmsley Spear, Inc., my old building) didn't want to upkeep the entrance since it was a source of vermin, and vagrants using it as a toilet, so the TA closed it in the mid or late 80s.
Quite open to the public. Some of them don't feel safe; I suspect they may be closed at night. There is a vague but accurate schematic on neighborhood maps of the area.
On Thursday I rode an R142 on the 2 from Hoyt to Grand Army Plaza. The announcements were coming on early -- e.g., "now entering" came on just after leaving the previous station. The C/R had to make manual announcements at the stations.
(That single chime before a manual announcement is awful -- it sounds too much like the door chimes. And the door chimes don't work when manual announcements are made.)
i was on that one on sunday. it was 6301-10 this happened twice. the first time when the conductor set it after leaving flatbush ave. and then it happened on its own. its just a sync thing so, they can reset it back to normal while the train is in the the interborough tunnels.
Hello. Which line services this station betwwen 10P and6A and weekends?
Depends. Usually the F, via 6th Ave63rd St/Queens Blvd. in its more or less permanent GO. But these last couple of weekends the F was running to/from Broadway via 63rd, so they must be running a Shuttle--or is it just a Brooklyn-Manhattan F terminating at 57th and 6th.
:-) Andrew
The way I understand the latest Serv. Notices, "F" to 6 Av and 42 from Stillwell. From Queens "F" to either 57-7Av, or 34- Broadway. While the "D" (and "B") can cover 47-50, what covers 57-6 during the period that the "Q" does not operate?
Nothing? Just a guess. That station is quite close to a variety of other stations; there's no reason for the TA to go out of its way to keep it open, especially evenings and weekends. (I'm not sure why it doesn't simply run the F through to 57th, though, instead of terminating it at 42nd. Is it possible that there's construction on the local tracks north of 42nd?)
>> (I'm not sure why it doesn't simply run the F through to 57th, though, instead of terminating it at 42nd. Is it possible that there's construction on the local tracks north of 42nd?) <<
They were doing that. However I guess the G/O has taken that over too.
From 10pm 6/8 until 5am 6/11 the F will run in two sections from Stillwell to 42nd St. 6th Ave and from 34th Street Broadway out to queens via the 63rd St. connector. 23rd St Ely, Lex and 5th Ave stations will be closed.
There will be no E service during this time, use the A for E stations in Manhattan, R service will be extended in Queens for all E stops.
Guess they are working on the 53rd St. tube once more.
The TA is doing fire stand pipe rehab work in the 53rd street tube on weekends and nights in addition to finishing up 63d street connector work in the immediate area . I understand that there will be regular Sunday sevice this Sunday 6/10 due to the Puerto Rican Day parade. It was ordered that the GO for the 63rd street connector work will be cancelled for Sunday and only in effect Friday night through Sunday AM. Check the service notices.
Also, I am told that the track work north of 57th and 6th will soon be ending so there will be once again through service nights and weekends on the 63rd street connector.
My latest info tells me that the new 63rd street service plan will go into effect on November 11, 2001. Stay tuned.
The idea that the TA will be installing an airport style moving walkway at 23rd Ely court square is indeed correct as I had occasion to speak with an engineer that was laying it out with a drawing some few weeks ago while in that corridor.
The complaint that I have, is, that assuming that the sta. is closed, there is no advisory to that effect at any of the nearby stas. or at 57-6 itself.
I agree. Perhaps my greatest peeve with current TA operations is poor communication with the passengers, and GO alerts are at the top of that list.
I believe the F does run to 57/6th nights and weekends, just without passengers. The call letters for the Brooklyn portion of the F are out of 57th.
And this stupidity is the result of conflicting GOs. The 53st tube is being work while the connection between 6th and 63rd is OOS (reason unknown).
Actually Henry the reason is quite well known. The reason for the OOS on the 63rd street tunnel north of 57/6 is a track repair job that has to be undertaken. Reason being that its work that must be done prior to the new service changes taking effect on November 11. It's better than the alternative of not doing the work!
What, exactly, has to be repaired in a 10 year old track section that has been closed every weekend the R was sent through the connector, plus around fall of last year, plus those 3 years of single track running where the 63st S actually got shown on the map, plus the 1995 rerouting of the Q onto Broadway, plus all those times weekend and night 63st service was reduced to a shuttle. Looking back, the ratio between 63rd/6th ave and 63rd/Bway usage seems to be 3:1.
Has there been a change in the effective date for the Manhattan Bridge changes in service? With less than a month to go, we have heard very little in the media or Transit itself regarding this matter.
07/22/01
The real question is when will it be back. They had a two-year time period for the work initially. Now it's three or four.
I work for the ************ company and they haven't told us yet. The latest rumor seems to be July 22, nothing is official until it is in writing.
Hopefully the switchover will have taken place by the time I make my annual visit in October.
The current version of SubTalk (the brochure you can pick up at Subway stations) has a section in it about the changes. Apparently there will be a special MannyB brochure out shortly.
John.
Just months after the NYCTA has opened service between the "new" 63rd st tunnel, and the main line to Jamaica and Forest Hills, the 63rd/Lex station has been faced with problems on a regular basis.
We all know that this station is one of the deepest stations in the city. We also know that useage has increased significantly since trains now run through this station to Forest Hills and Jamaica.
Since March, the elevator has been out-of-service twice, for a week at a time. And there is always a minimum of one or two escalators not working. Sometimes, it's an "up" escalator, which makes things ten times worse.
If you are coming from Queens, you have to take 4 escalators to reach street level. One Sunday, 2 of the 4 escalators going up, were not working. I reached the token booth level, and saw about 4 employees just standing around, while one handed out transfers. You would think they would be smart enough to run a "down" escalator in the "up" direction, since it's easier for those going down to just walk it.
God, you gotta love city employees.
Transfers to what? The TA has already implemented the free transfer between 63rd/Lex and 59th/Lex? I had no idea.
Yes. The TA always offers free transfers from the 63rd/Lex station to the 59th station. At least on weekends when I am usually around there.
The conductor on a Manhattan-bound F or R train going through 63rd will announce that the train is going a through 63rd st, yet people get off at Lex/63rd and look for the direct connection to the 6 train.
I've been through that station many times, most on weekdays, and I've never seen transfers distributed.
The TA is probably distributing transfers to F passengers who don't listen to announcements and don't realize they have to change to the R to reach the 6 the "official" way.
A few weeks ago, when the R was running through 63rd, I transferred via Fun Pass to the Lex. Not that I cared, but I didn't see anyone handing out transfers.
Hey Dave,
Do you think it would be totally ridiculous to build a "6" station at Lex/63rd? So 6 riders would stop at 63rd, run another 4 blocks to the next stop, and then 53rd would come next?
I suppose that would help redistribute riders from the Bronx or East Harlem based on whether they were headed for the West Side (they want the E train at 53rd/Lex), 6th Av (F at 63rd/Lex) or Broadway (N or R at 59th/Lex). Or redistribution of those headed for Queens (F at 63rd/Lex for central/Eastern, V at 53rd for west of Jackson Heights).
I just thought I'd post that idea for the hell of it.
Yes, I do think it would be totally ridiculous. (Sorry.) Three stops on a single line in an eight-block span?! (There's an entrance to the 59th Street station at 60th -- in fact, I don't think I've ever entered at 59th proper.)
I'd like to see an underground passageway connecting 63rd to 60th. Supposedly one already exists -- it just needs to be opened to the public and placed within fare control. (A moving walkway couldn't hurt. If Queens can get one...)
Until that happens, a MetroCard transfer is a reasonable compromise.
But, really, I expect that F passengers who need the 6 will transfer to the E/R/V (any will do but some may refuse to ride the local) in Queens.
I'd like to see an underground passageway connecting 63rd to 60th. Supposedly one already exists -- it just needs to be opened to the public and placed within fare control.
This is the first I've heard of an existing connection. It would have had to have been built when the 63rd Street line was dug. Since the 59th Street station occupies the entire width of Lex from building line to building line and the sidewalks on Lex were never dug up between 60th and 63rd(IIRC), this phantom passage would have had to have been dug from building basements or from the train tunnel or bored from the end of an existing platform. I don't remember any such project. Does anyone else?
This is said to be an electrical room. Since it extends the whole way from 60th-63rd, it must have been built as part of the Lex. line, along side the tunnel north of 59th St. and the new 63rd St line abutted it, so it was connected.
Of course, there would be a precedent for that- MBTA Red Line's Park Place and Downtown Crossing Stations are close together; Market Frankford Line stations in Center City Philly are close together; Broad Street Subway's City Hall and Walnut-Locust Stations are close together (the latter needed to provide a transfer to the PATCO line).
Its not the city employees, its the contractor who installed that junk in the first place. The "lowest bidder" means exactly that.
Things are not like they were 100 years ago. The original IRT was built by cheap immigrant labor who had to work hard to keep their jobs, and by artisans who came over from Europe. That's why some of the original IRT stations were so beautiful. Now all you get is shoddy work and lazy workers.
Lets put it this way - the entire 9.1 mile original IRT line was built in 4 years, from groundbreaking to opening day. Its taken 11 years just to fix the damn Manhattan Bridge tracks!!!
Well said. Only a few years (1925-1932) for IND construction. Most of this construction was already in place by 1930 anyway.
Today? Fugetabouit.....
You jump to a lot of conclusions without bothering to collect facts, don't you? Did you answer math questions in school without listening to them first?
What are the possibilities here?
1) The escalators and/or elevator are crappy, and they fail too frequently.
2) Vandals are pounding on them and attacking them with foreign objects and hitting the emergency button over and over again....all too common in New York. Amtrak's elevator in North Philly was wrecked by vandals.
3) NYC Transit is not following the manufacturer's directions for maintenance.
4) More than one of the above
So which is it? Do you really know? Can you find out and post it here?
I'm sure that the problems with the 63rd Street station could easily be all of the above. You can let me now what the answer is.
BMTJeff
I don't know what the answer is. I just wanted you guys to consider all the possibilities before pointing fingers. (And I apologize for being a bit shrill).
"I'm sure that the problems with the 63rd Street station could easily be all of the above. You can let me now what the answer is."
BMTJeff
Maybe the problems with the escalators at 63rd St. have something to do with the vibrations of those speeding R-68s !!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Bill "Newkirk"
I don't think any R68's go through there, since it has been awhile since the B went to Queensbridge.
More likely the speeding Redbirds and R62's upstairs.
The upper level platform there shakes and rattles uncontrollably whenever an express passes by, and Lexington expresses come by a lot more frequently than whatever line happens to be running across 63rd today. A bit of soundproofing, as at 49th, would have been fitting.
Yeah the noise is bad on both levels. On the lower level you hear the express on the lex roar above, on the upper below. Isn't the Lex express tracks sandwiched in between both upper and lower levels?
There seems to be quite a distance between upper and lower levels of the 63rd/Lex station, that would explain it.
I believe you are correct.
AFAIK the 63rd St line ducks beneath both levels of the Lexington Ave. line. That would explain why the 63rd/Lex station is so deep.
Sounds like a job for Todd and his depth gauge, if he is interested.
That could be the reason why the escalators do not work correctly at the 63rd St./Lex. Ave. station of the 63rd St. tunnel.
BMTJeff
I wouldn't be surprised if the frequent severe vibrations have a deleterious effect on the escalators -- and I also wouldn't be surprised nobody bothered considering this issue when installing the escalators. In fact, it seems like the issue was entirely overlooked.
I wonder if the architects who designed the escalators in the first place ever took into account that there was going to be a lot of vibration so that the escalators could be installed in such a manner so that the vibration wouldn't affect them.
BMTJeff
"I'm sure that the problems with the 63rd Street station could easily be all of the above. You can let me now what the answer is."
BMTJeff
Maybe the problems with the escalators at 63rd St. have something to do with the vibrations of those speeding R-68s !!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Bill "Newkirk"
That is a possibility, but not very likely. I wonder if the escalators wern't installed correctly.
BMTJeff
<>
I am not jumping to any conclusions, and here are the facts:
There are four levels of escalators between street level and the Manhattan bound platform at 63rd Lex. One side goes up, the other goes down. These escalators a VERY LONG, as this is one of the deepest stations in the city.
It is a fact that at least one or more of the escalators is always out of service. It is a fact that TA workers were standing around the station(giving transfers to the 6, or just answering questions for those who still don't understand what the 63rd tunnel is about) aware that TWO LEVELS of street-bound escalators were not working, and people were struggling to make it upstairs. At the very same time, the elevator was out of service.
I would have reversed two of the down escalators to bring people up, since we all know it's easier going down a pair of stairs than up.
That was my original point. I am sorry I did not communicate it properly.
You communicated it just fine. But what you didn't communicate was whether those TA workers would have been able to do anything about the escalators at that point. Now, you are correct that perhaps the down escalators should have been reversed. Perhaps that could have been done.
But in as far as why the escalators or elevators are broken - that is something where you didn't present any information.
Station Agents and CTAs (Cleaner Transity Authority) asre not authorized to start/restart/reverse escalators. Only supervisors and above are so authorized.. Did you tell teh booth the escaaltors were out? Maybe they already called for the supervisor? Maybe supervisor couldnt start the escaaltors and called Elevator/Escalator for service?
I have seen the bulletin regarding Escalators- it is four pages long!
There is also a manual for elevator operators.(If you wonder- you must be qualified to work as an elevator operator. They are usually CTAs on restricted duty.)
I have also seen a bulletin on escalator/elevators. We must immediately call in any stopped escalator to our field office. Elevators require use of our alarm if someone is trapped. If no one is trapped we must call the field office to report the elevator.
Unfortunately, Station Agents have rules we must follow or we could lose our jobs. Next time, feel free to call 718-243-3222 and complain to the Field Manager (Superintendent). Near each booth is a sign stating:
John Doe (Made up name)
is the Field Manager (or: Superintendent) for this station.
(plus other text) and gives an address and the phone number.
If the sign has no name then call the number anyway being sure to name the station and condition.
Station Agents and CTAs (Cleaner Transity Authority) asre not authorized to start/restart/reverse escalators. Only supervisors and above are so authorized.. Did you tell teh booth the escaaltors were out? Maybe they already called for the supervisor? Maybe supervisor couldnt start the escaaltors and called Elevator/Escalator for service?
I have seen the bulletin regarding Escalators- it is four pages long!
There is also a manual for elevator operators.(If you wonder- you must be qualified to work as an elevator operator. They are usually CTAs on restricted duty.)
I have also seen a bulletin on escalator/elevators. We must immediately call in any stopped escalator to our field office. Elevators require use of our alarm if someone is trapped. If no one is trapped we must call the field office to report the elevator.
Don't take this the wrong way, you didn't make the rules, but it's fairly apparent that any private business that was so rule-bound, and left its frontline workers with so little authority, would be driven out of business by its competitors in very short order.
With the exception of some very upscale Fifth Avenue or Park Avenue apartment buildings, the TA is quite likely the only employer of elevator operators left in the city.
Most subway elevators don't have operators. It seems as though only the ones that don't have a staircase alternate, like the deep Washington Heights stations on the A and 1/9, have operators. Why the distinctions? Crowds, perhaps?
I'd think that with crowds there, that would be justification for NOT putting an operator there, as there'd be more room for the crowds.
Possibly the operator saves enough time by discouraging people from holding the door open to offset the space he occupies with a few extra runs per hour.
All deep stations have emergency stairways. Even 181, 191 on the 1, Clark Street, part-time end of BMT Boro Hall. Roosevelt Island, etc have escalators so that is the emergency stairway.
All deep stations have emergency stairways. Even 181, 191 on the 1, Clark Street, part-time end of BMT Boro Hall. Roosevelt Island, etc have escalators so that is the emergency stairway.
If you want to lament pathetic stations, try riding the Sea Beach in Brooklyn and get a ganger at Fort Hamilton Parkway, 20th Avenue, Avenue U, 86th Street, among others. Those stations feature peeling paint, dank smells from water damage, and an atmosphere of a bombed out section of Berlin in 1945. And the TA has done nothing to improve those stations since the first time I returned to New York on a visit for the first time in 1974.
Last but not least....let's not forget everyone's favorite disgusting station, Chambers Street (J/M/Z).
I'd be willing to bet there are some new, undiscovered mutant species of mushrooms growing there.
MP and others bring up an interesting topic. Here's my take on it. The TA is either woefully short of money, or just doesn't give a hoot anymore and is just playing out the string. I hope it's the former because with good times more money will be available and some work can be done to improve the stations. If it's the latter, well then, the greatest subway system in the world is headed for real bad times. I'll bet there isn't another website that features a band of fanatics extolling the virtues and rememberances past of a subway like we do here on Subtalk. Perhaps if we were in charge we would make our feelings known and get the action that is needed. Can it be inertia or laziness that grips those who run the system? I'd like to hear what you guys out there have to say about it because from what I know already there has been a litany of complaints about this or that station that has turned out to be the pits.
It's the BUCKS ... current MTA budgets were based on financial realms that went away on inauguration day. I'm not saying this to fan the flames of politics here but with the change in administration in DC along with consumer's complete loss of confidence in the future ("let them shiver in the dark") the "good times" are over. Since a lot of politicos and agencies never planned for a rainy day, money's tight and about to get a WHOLE lot tighter now that our "leader" has decreed that mass transit is an anathema to drilling for oil (apparently someone here BLABBED and told him that the subways don't run on gasoline) and thus, the funding promised last year has dried up.
Add to that the hissy fit going on up here in Smallbany because Bruno and Paturkey won't talk to Shelly and make a promise that when the state Assembly actually passes a budget bill that it won't spontaneously change AFTER the fact, there may not be a state budget *AT* *ALL* now which means the MTA will NOT be funded at all and that in turn means a fair hike just to keep the trains rolling and not much more.
What we've got here is politicians who are thumbing their noses at us all and believe FIRMLY that we're going to re-elect them and somehow forget all about this. But there's why ...
Ah, Chambers St. The most magnificent ruin in the city, now that the main building at Ellis Island has been renovated.
Though I haven't seen the interior of these stations the condition of the platforms tells the story quite well. They look pathetic.
BMTJeff
This bodes real well for the proposed people mover at Court Square :)
--Mark
Sad but true.
Also sometimes there's lots of leaks. Last time I was there I saw a good sized puddle of water near the front end of the Queens bound platform.
It's possible that these escalators are not designed for bidirectional operation. This would explain why the down escalators were running down while the up escalators were not working.
Additionally, I was told many years ago, by the people in charge of repairing escalators for NYCT at the time, that even in cases where an escalator is designed for bidirectional operation, it is usually not done because the escalator has run for so long in one direction that all the parts have worn one way, and changing directions at that point could be dangerous.
David
Seems like an easy solution would be to periodically reverse the escalators. That would briefly confuse the regular commuters but I'm sure they're smart enough to figure it out.
(Automobile analogy: tire rotation.)
We've already got one person who comes on here periodically and complains that the escalators at Court Street are reversed ("down" goes up, "up" goes down). I wouldn't want to see that multiplied by the scores of escalators in the system :-)
David
[Additionally, I was told many years ago, by the people in charge of repairing escalators for NYCT at the time, that even in cases where an escalator is designed for bidirectional operation, it is usually not done because the escalator has run for so long in one direction that all the parts have worn one way, and changing directions at that point could be dangerous. ]
That means that the escalator wasn't really designed for bidirectional operation, or it wasn't properly maintained.
Arti
"That means that the escalator wasn't really designed for bidirectional operation, or it wasn't properly maintained."
Reasonable possibilities.
However, do not all machines sometimes have problems with new parts (eg the parts wear into each other, such as when a new automobile engine has been operated for several months), so that new parts need to "break in" to their environs?
I apologize if this seems like a stupid question...
[However, do not all machines sometimes have problems with new parts (eg the parts wear into each other, such as when a new automobile engine has been operated for several months), so that new parts need to "break in" to their environs? ]
My original response was theoretical. I'm not a mechanical engineer, so I wouldn't know the answer, but if something is specified to perform something and doesn't, either spec wasn't correct or met, or maintenance wasn't up to spec.
Arti
When I lived in London, we had escalators just about everywhere on the deep stations. Whenever possible London Transport was replacing old elevators (“lifts”) with escalators: huge banks of them.
They ran reliably, some for many years. The reason I understand that there is a rash of replacements going on at the moment, is fallout from the King’s Cross fire: wooden escalators can obviously catch fire.
However, they run.
The escalators in the World Trade Center take a pounding but they run.
The TA apparently doesn’t know to specify the heaviest-duty escalators that they could possibly think about, and then keep maintaining them.
I use the BMT escalators at Court Street: they are frequently out, and the right hand one going up has constant problems with one of the handrails not going at the same speed as the rest of the machinery. It’s been like that for months.
The escalators at 5 WTC on the BMT are now a still life behind sheetrock. I have seen no sign of any rebuilding after the fire and it’s been more months.
What happened to a reasonable maintenance policy?
John.
NYCT did indeed have problems with escalator specifications, in the 1970s and 1980s. It bought Westinghouse modular escalators, which were in essence department store escalators. They didn't stand up to the rigors of the subway environment, and their replacement has become a priority.
I don't know how bad London's vandalism problem is, but it's pretty bad here. Even when people aren't actively trying to BREAK the escalators, they're shutting the machines off by pressing the emergency stop button (of which there is one at each landing, as required by NYC law). The escalator then stays off until a supervisor can come by and inspect the machine to determine whether it can/should be restarted or needs repair.
David
To add to the response: Most booths at escalator stations have a panel that lets us see if the escalator is stopped or if the fire alarm at the escalator is active or tripped. The panel also comes with an emergency stop for each escalator or all escalators depending opn the station..
Even some of the new escalators are not up to par. Broadway/ E NY (BENY) has just had its two replaced with three and one of them is squealing up a storm and usually only two are running.
My buddy Bill "Newkirk" E-Mailed me about an August 27th Fan Trip aboard a Triplex "D" Type train----my all time favorite. I know there are three others scheduled earlier which I cannot make, and I am told they are going to the Rockaways. Does anyone know where the 8-27 trip is going and what number designation will be put on the Triplex. I hope it's Coney Island and the number is #4 for my old Sea Beach. But either way I would love to come. I only wish it was a week earlier since I will be in Virginia until August 20th. Someone let me know if they have the answer.
The Aug. 27 trip is a special one run by the Division of Car Equipment (did I remember that right?) for the March of Dimes benefit. (They ran the Observation Car fan trip last year). The triplex tour is supposed to be the BMT eastern division and then to the SBK to the waterfront (hauled by diesels).
-Dave
What details do we need to know to sign up for this trip?
Are we sure that date is right? It's a Monday.
Gary, thanks for pointing that out!
The change has been noted (in the thread)
BMTman
The 8/27 Trip IS NOT a Transit Museum sponsored excursion.
It is being handled by SubDivsion C (MOW) and will go over the Willy B. and then will go over to Metropolitan Ave (M Line). It will include a brief run out to the SBK yard (assuming TA approves).
A run like that hasn't been done since the D-Type trip via McDonald Ave. SBK trackage (back in 1975).
BMTman
Is it safe to say that there will be some "street running" and how far ?
Bill "Newkirk"
At least to the waterfront, i.e. thru the SBK yard & out the otherside. Any more would require two things: an agreement with NYCHRR & track up grade, i.e. I believe they still have a split rail on the curve between 1st & 2nd Ave. I would have signed up for this one, but I'll be in Bridgeport that week-end (my annual AA baseball week-end, we're doing the "other" league this year).
Mr t__:^)
Please E-Mail me with details - Skip8096@Yahoo.com
Bill, at present time the street running will entail standard South Brooklyn trackage from the 4th Ave. Tunnel portal out over 3rd Ave., past Costco and across into the SBK Yard. The D-Types are supposed to be hauled ALL the way into the yard (ie meaning the train will go into the Cocoa-port).
Street running down 1st Ave. is optional and requires an OK from New York Cross Harbor RR.
BMTman
I would say that some of us should try to organize a special #4 Sea Beach Fred special running "D" types on the Sea Beach Express track specially for #4 Sea Beach Fred.
BMTJeff
I think that I must consult the dept of car equipment before I plan my vacations :(
And the trip is Sunday August 26th .....
--Mark
Politicians have postponed considering which of 3 directions to build first until a draft environmental impact statement is written next year.
Bergen Record story
Reading between the lines, the politicians are postponing their decision until the highest bidder steps forward. Send in your cash vote now!
That's actually not an unreasonable decision. Lacking the money to build all three, they are trying to pick one. Will there be some corruption involved? Is this New Jersey? So yes, and yes. But the fact is, HBLR is open and operating successfully - and that gives these folks some credibility in my book. So if they want to wait for the EIS, fine - but then it's time to pull out the shovels and get back to work.
A while ago, someone posted that there was a period of time after the Rockaway line opened that the A didn't go there. I and others didn't believe it, and my Line History page has the A being mostly unchanged until 1988.
When doing the research for the History Repeats itself post (below), I decided to look at the old maps and see it it was true. I started with the 1958 map, and that had the A express to the Rockaways and Lefferts and the E local to Euclid. Non-rush, the A went to Lefferts only, and unlettered shuttles went from Euclid to the Rockaways. I had assumed it was always like this, with the A and E swapping between local and express sometime, and the E eventually extended to the Rockaways as well.
But then when I looked at the 1964 World's Fair map, The E was express to Euuclid or the Rockaways, and the A was local to Euclid or Lefferts only. Non-rush, the HH ran from Euclid to the Rockaways. I'm not sure whether this began in '64, or in '63 when there was another map (which I've seen, but don't have), which looked like the '58 map, but I wasn't aware of any differences on the IND. So then around the time I was born, there was no A to the Rockaways. I never knew that.
Then right before the Chrystie St changes, midday, evening and weekend daytime A service was extended to Far Rockaway. Then I notice this was a headline in one of the 1967 Bulletins. (I was so busy concentrating on the Chrystie developments that I overlooked the significance of "A Extended to Rockaways".)
(At the same time, the E began put-ins from Lefferts (these are probably the trains that had been going only to Euclid before), and the HH was cut back at certain times and began the long deadheads from Broad Channel.
In 72/73, the HH was omitted (this I always knew, as it was the map I grew up on), and both A and E go to Far Rock and Rock Park, but otherwise the map is pretty vague about the times and shuttle service. The E was still express on Fulton, which I had never realized before. I had later found out that it was express sometimes, but never realized it was for that long-- 63 or 64 to 76 (when the A exp./CC local service I was most familiar with began).
The East River Crossing study had proposed restoring the E exp to the Rockaways/A local to Euclid (which I thought was so unheard of when I first read the plan 4 years ago), to bring more service to the Franklin St. station in the evnet of Manhattan Bridge problems. (The plan also included full length double track shuttle, extended to Brighton Beach in the event of a full closure)
Other info, it's true that the express tracks from w4 to 34th opened at the same time as Chrystie St. There had been alot of debate about that. But it makes sense, because originally, the tracks were to open as Phase II, in March, 1967. But when Phase I was pushed back from the year before, the tracks were then ready before the opening, and the two phases were able to be combined.
It's also true that there was a time before 1954 that the D went to Church Av. and the F terminated in Manhattan. The 1948 "3 systems" map reflects this, but I'm not sure when it began or ended.
When I do my next upload of Line History (probably to reflect the Manhattan Bridge flip), I'll make the corrections.
A second correction. I forgot there was a second 1972 map (reflecting the service changes of 1-2-73, such as the replacement of the QJ), and this has the E local again, and only to Rockaway Park. This (and the 1974 map) was the one I grew up on, so that's why I thought the A was always express.
I rode on an E running express along Fulton St. in July of 1969, the same day as my memorable Howard Beach-Broad Channel rocket ride on the A. The interesting part was, I saw that E train pass us in the opposite direction at one point, and convinced my mother to wait for it. Well, we waited for it at either 80th or 88th St. - and waited, and waited, and waited. My mother was getting impatient, as we had a bus to catch. Finally, it arrived and we boarded. It was an R-6/7 consist, and it really moved along Fulton St. I don't remember how high the bull and pinion gears got up to, probably F# above middle C at least.
Eric--According to the line description in the back of the 1972 map, it seemed that only a cople of "E" trains started out at Lefferts btwn 715-745AM approx. While on the subject, it seemed that "KK" trains at the time only ran from Jamaica-168 ST in the Am from 710-820. Otherwise, all "KK" service ran from 57 St to Eastern Parkway only. The original "KK" brochure from 1968 stated that "KK" service ran to 168 St during both the AM and PM rush hours. When was THAT eliminated?? Tony
The only E's to Lefferts were always put ins.
The K (single) began going only to Eastern Pkwy with the 2nd 1972 map.
**The following is a completely fictitious story. Facts may have been altered and excaggerated. The ending is not complete**
Here's a little railroad tale about a man who made the trains go faster than they were made.
His trains were all he had since his family passed on. And women just saw his shortcomings
because at 5'2 he stood.
He started his railroading days with the New York City transit authority. He started his days on the F line, operating the R46 trains out of Jamaica yard for the PM shift, from 2 to 9pm weekdays. This was a busy time for the Queens Blvd line. Schoolkids often caused trouble with BIE's and crime. And rush hour congestion waiting before 5th and 53rd for E's and F's with door holding. But here the "madman" (so his fellow employees called him) shined.
He made sure his trains were on time. After deadheading to 179st for his first run, he beat the E's
Forest Hills. He hated the timers Manhattan bound after Forest Hills. Everytime you picked up decent speed, there was a yellow and an S glaring him in the face. He braked hard and pushed them to the max but never ever got tripped.
At Roosevelt avenue he hated, because rude riders held doors and delayed the trains, often an interchange point for troublesome school kids. He then wrapped it flying past 65st making that R46 scream, right through the Northern Blvd tunnels at almost 50mph. Passangers and the C/R knew this guy was crazy, because you got yourself slammed around in that curve. A hard brake for the new timers before the 63rd street interlocking, then he wrapped it again, only to slam into Queens Plaza. Thanks to his speed his pax got out to make a G or an R across the platform.
53rd street Manhattan bound was fairly easy, after dealing with the initial timers the trains sped through the tunnel and popped people's ears at the Roosevelt Island shaft exit.
The Manhattan run was always frustrating, since the "madman" saw the Q train, which was his favorite line he hoped someday to operate.
Brooklyn was a more relaxing run, as F's moved along pretty well there, and the ocean air always relaxed him. Queens bound rush to Queens was another headache. But if no trains were in front he's wrap it through 53rd street tube, even if people were packed in there like sardines. The C/R felt like saying "hold on" through the PA but that would annoy the "madman".
He loved the express run from Roosevelt to Forest Hills. After dealing with a few timers just after Elmhurst avenue he wrapped it 5 seconds before the last one cleared, making Grand and Woodhaven a pure blur, at nearly 50mph. After the uphill before 67 Dr he'd wrap it into Forest Hills, often pushing 50mph before the hard rumbling brake into Forest Hills. The people in charge of wheel smoothing at C.I. knew him well, his rough braking put wheels in the shop for smoothing the flat spots.
Well after a year or so at the TA he was offered a job on the Q. He sure made those R40s fly through the 6th ave dash, often scaring riders who thought he'd miss W4th. And the brighton express was simply exhilerating, as he passed one lumbering D train after another.
Of course he had his bad experiences at the TA. Many couples at night would lean on the cab door in the R46's, often it was a tall 6 foot guy making out with a woman that was 5 feet or so. Not only did the "madman" find this behavior distracting, it made him even more mad. He'd often brake hard just to tear the jock off his "daughter".
He never had too many problems on the Q though. He found Q riders to be a little more behaved, with less yuppies and snobs like on the F. \
After quite a few years he was offered a job on the LIRR, one of MTA's commuter railroads. Now he loved the subway, and enjoyed his Q line, but he wasn't happy that his beloved R40's were being replaced with those lumbering trains now used on the D. Plus LIRR had better pay, more vacation time and best of all, faster trains. He did well in training, with very quick response times to the ASC and knowing the FRA rules.
He starting doing off peak runs on the Port Washington line. And since LIRR runs often with the first car closed, he encountered no passengers. Of course this line didn't have to many fast stretches, curves and speed restrictions galore. And he knew he couldn't brake hard with the M-1's. But between Flushing and Woodide he wrapped it. The M-1's shook like hell, because their wheels were full of flat spots. Manhattan bound there were usually no diverting tracks so he flew past Sunnyside at 60mph and that bell rang a few times but he was on top of it.
The mgmt put him on the PW peak runs after a year. With most stops in Queens skipped the "madman" let loose. He started his day on the Babylon line. He did a run around 2pm, with stops only at Babylon, Jamaica and Penn station. Oh he loved that Babylon express. He definately did the MAS of 80mph the whole way. With no grade crossings the towns of Lindenhurst, Massapequa, Wantagh, and Merrick just flew by, often as pax got the vibrator treatment from those worn out wheels. Often people got a good jerk as they neared Lynbrook to slow for the interlocking, but the power towers flew by as the train gained speed after Valley Stream. Then a fast brake to slow at Jamaica interlocking and the stop at Jamaica. Jamaica was always a very crowded station. But nonetheless things usually went fairly smoothly.
The train flew past Forest Hills and Kew Gardens, the "madman" loved using that horn. In his own mind he wanted to let the women on the platform know something. What it was, we are not clear on. Maybe he just wanted to scare some of the tall guys away from the women on the platform. Of course Woodside was an "info zone" so full speed could not be attained there, plus around Sunnyside he had to slow down for several track switches and watch for bums and teens walking on the tracks.
After arriving at Penn station he got a 90 minute dinner break. He often ate at Wendy's, but hated to see all the women with the tall guys. He's seen women and often complimented them, as well as using the "internet". But he found no luck, as there was almost never a reply. They all wanted to hook up with tall guys.
After eating the "madman" felt quite small in the crowds of Penn station. The afternoon rush is beginning, and the confining place it already is gets even more so. Almost every man is taller than him and he knows he won't even think of approaching a woman here, even though he is eye level with lots of women. Well back down to the platform, the crew is pulling in his PEAK train to Port Washington. The platform is already crowded with cell phone yappers.
The doors open and he immediately opens the cab and closes the door. Many engineers leave the cab door open even though it is against the rules, but the "madman" feels that this obstructs the view for people to look out the window, plus he doesn't want to deal with hearing ringing phones and the smell of a spilled Starbucks coffee.
Often the train wouldn't get out on time thanks to door holding. Sometimes he'd have to get out of his cab and watch the doors, often angrily yelling at tall guys who try to impress women running for the train holding the doors open. Sadly it usually worked, the tall guys snag a seat next to the woman.
Finally the doors get closed and the train pulls out. The lights flicker out and then on again, and hopefully the A/C goes back on without an MA reset. Once clear of the switches he wraps it as soon as the bells stop. The orange tunnel lights fly by and those with sensitive ears get ready.
After a quick ride in the tunnel the train crawls to Woodside. His train stops at Woodside to pick up more people. The train is pretty crowded, and he can hear the "excuse me's" from outside his cab as people squeeze on in. The next stop is Bayside. The train races through at 70mph and blows through Flushing with horns and all. Those under the crowded LIRR overpass think there's an earthquake. The train arrives at Bayside 5 minutes later, often losing about 40% of it's riders, since many of the fancy good looking women don't want to ride a 7 train. Next stop is Great Neck, where the train empties out more. Often held at Great Neck waiting for a train from PW to clear the single track. By PW the train is a mess. People have left behind coffee cups, newspapers, all kinds of trash. The "madman" finds the riders on the PW line often quite fifthy and rude, even though they made lots of money and sure dress nice. Also the "madman" finds alot of the women who ride this line attractive, petite and dark haired. But he'll often see a tall guy waiting for the woman on the platform.
One fateful day the "madman" is operating his train on the weekend just before Flushing, when he sees a small asian woman making out with a tall guy right on the tracks! Now this is where the story ends, now you be the engineer!
John, Maybe if you had a job or a education, you can get the women you always wanted. Now stop wasting space with you sick, selfish shit.
Hey lighten up it was just a story! I am not the "madman". Heck I'd have chinese food on my break and wouldn't look at the women that ride the PW line.
And if I was the "madman" I would've pulled the brake and called the cops (or is it MTA police) to arrest the tresspassers.
One fateful day the "madman" is operating his train on the weekend just before Flushing, when he sees a small asian woman making out with a tall guy right on the tracks! Now this is where the story ends, now you be the engineer!
In one word, if you can call it a word, SQUISH!!
The "madman" runs over the couple and is charged with double murder as a buff who is standing by the railfan window says that the "madman" in the cab was laughing just before and after the double 12-9 took place.
The "madman" was sentenced to two 25 years to life terms to be served consecutively. The "madman" no longer has to worry about being too short for girls as he has become the bitch for his cellmate "Mandingo". The "madman" now has difficulties sitting down.
The End (pardon the pun).
Well if I were him I would've pulled the brake. No matter how much you hate someone it is a sin to kill them. A couple of idiots aren't worth your job or freedom! Hopefully the train would stop in time and the tresspassers would've just gotten arrested.
The graffitti is real bad in the open cut near Flushing. Those guys (or gals) are really taking a chance because at night it is pitch black down there and the engineer would not be able to see the tresspassers in time.
Who arrests people walking on LIRR ROW anyway? Can the local PD do it or does the MTA police have to do it?
Anyone can do it. If it was called into central, the responding officer would probably request the dispatcher to call the MTA PD desk.
P.S. You are pathetic, im sorry to say, why publiclt admit you are desperate, suntalk sure as hell aint gonna get you any nor does it impress girls. Goddmnit man. come on, get a job get a car get fit, get educated. Im only oh so many years old and...well never mind.
LOL!!
BMTman
What! No mention of "mystical" girls ?
Bill "Newkirk"
The madman, unlike me was not interested in "mystical" girls.
Besides I'd never leave NYCT for LIRR. The LIRR has tons of rules to remember and probably more pressure than the subway, mainly because LI is an FRA RR.
Besides subway commuters are much friendlier than those rude LIRR commuters. What leave the Q and give up my Brighton run and dash? No way! Even with the 68's it can't be all that bad.
So what would you rather work for, subway or LIRR?
About an hour ago (4-4:15PM) a Metro North commuter train made up of one Genesis engine and some Bombardier push pull coaches struck a shopping cart on the tracks in the Bronx. The engine dragged the cart for a short distance starting a fire under the pilot truck. Some blackness was seen on engine body where the flames were. Power was shut off and no trains were using the Hudson Line in both directions. It seems that at time of broadcast, the fire was out and the news speculated of possible resumption of service. Some brush fires were started by the sparking shopping cart. Those fires seemed to be out. The Genesis engine was only fire damaged, not a total loss. Hard to see number because of helicopter angle.
Bill "Newkirk"
Service resumed as of 5:30PM and update showed a Metro North high hood GP-? pushing the consist to the University Heights station so passengers could leave train and take another one to resume their commute.
Bill "Newkirk"
I am going to stick my neck out here and speculate that the shopping cart wasn't there by accident. I assume the police are involved.
I am going to stick my neck out here and speculate that the shopping cart wasn't there by accident. I assume the police are involved.
I saw the story on Channel 2 at 4pm- it was engine 218.
I'm going to go out on a ledge here and assume the shopping cart may not have been there by accident. I assume the police are involved.
I was on a Metro North Harlem line train the other day, when something was thrown at the train. I was in the first car. It was loud, and banged up against the side of the car, which caused some sparks.
When I was riding the Acela Express back to NYC from Boston, two kids threw a rock each at the Acela. I can't remember if it happened near Route 128 or near Back Bay. One rock hit the window on the right side of my business class car. The next rock hit one of the rearmost window on the right side of the cafe car.
I wonder if this is a new trend. Throw crap at the trains and put stuff in the tracks and try to kill people.
I think the glass on the Acela Express is double paned or something because the outside sheet was shattered but the inside sheet was ok.
Shawn.
"wonder if this is a new trend. Throw crap at the trains and put stuff in the tracks and try to kill people."
It's an old story. Freight crews live in constant fear of it.
If I had seen something like that the train were moving slowly enough I would have shot a picture of them and given it to the police.
Attacking passenger trains is a little more extreme than attacking freight trains I think. I'm not condoning either of them. But with passenger trains you're risking the lives of lots of people. With freights.. unless people are trying to flip hazmat cars, then there's less human injury involved.
Shawn.
Agreed that the number of people at risk is higher on a passenger train. Because of the freights' generally lower speeds, however, the rock-thrower is more likely to hit the locomotive cab and seriously injure the engineer.
Age old story. I've heard of stories of wire milk boxes , old fashioned bed springs etc being thrown down in places like the Sea Beach and Brighton cuts, and a stretch of the L line near Wilson. Once the train hit it and it grounded out...boom.
One poor guy I knew got shot on the then LL in Brownsville from a sniper on a building; recovered and after I moved away my mom sent me a news clipping that the same poor guy got his skull crushed by a 15 lb. boulder that came thru his cab window. Dropped from above the tunnel portal. Too bad the [severely censored] that was smart enough to time dropping that rock so perfectly couldn't use that warped intelligence in a better way.
If anybody noticed in the last years of cabooses most of the windows were plated over for the same reasons, and the FRA started requiring the glass discussed in other thread on locomotives and cabooses.Nice society, isn't it. Yes, supposed to be bulletproof.
Again, nothing new. How many years now have the Northeast corridor Amtrak locos had that ugly wire screen over the windshields?
On the victim side a friend of mine now retired worked the New Haven, PC, etc for a long time on the commuter runs...was coming up the Park Ave cut somewhere around Tremont one night and a carload of drunks ran thru the fence and landed on the tracks in front of him but luckily in stopping distance. You can imagine the scene when that car grounded on the 3rd rail and the tank blew.
Damn tresspassers. Do they actually crack down on RR trasspassers?
Hey everyone. I got back to New York last night. I had a pretty fun time in Boston. I didn't do much railfanning since I went with some friends of mine. The Acela Express was one of the most coolest things I've ever seen in my life. I rode trainset 7 up to Boston which has 2032 & 2034 as the power cars. I rode trainset 5 back to NYC. The power cars of that trainset were 2020 & 2009. While waiting for my train to arrive at South Station I saw trainset 11, which has power cars 2017 & 2036. This train pulled out and a few minutes later, my train arrived.
I took some pictures of two different Acela power cars while waiting for my train at South Station as well as an old Amtrack diesel which was idling near the end of a track. I also got to see some MBTA commuter trains in action. I'll have picture back later on this week hopefully.
I wasn't very impressed at all with the MBTA subway. The only real highlight was a newer Bombardier trainset on the red line. I didn't ride any Type 8s on the green line the whole time I was there. I really don't remember seeing any also. I found it strange that their 3rd rail isn't covered, doors open on both sides in some stations and that you can walk right infront of the trains of the green line at the Park street station :) I did ride a train from each line for atleast one stop :)
I stayed at the Howard Johnson's on Boylston Street. I would not recommend staying there. It's a decent walk away from the nearest green line station (Kenmore). Also, after servicing my room one day, they forgot to close the door behind them. Luckily, nothing was stolen.
Overall I enjoyed my little vacation. I think my next trip will be Amtrak to Virginia later on this summer.
Shawn.
Oh yeah.. I forgot to mention. We hit 148mph between Connecticut and Rhode Island. I was hanging out around the conductor's cabin in the cafe car :)
Shawn.
I did ride a train from each line for atleast one stop :)
Hey, so did I! Then again, that's not difficult -- they form a tight loop downtown. In fact, the only line I rode more than one stop was the Green (B branch). Then again, I was only there for a day.
About 5:45 I was heading home from work and my 'Z' train pulls into Broadway Junction. I got a glimpse of a train that was on the center track heading into the yard. It looks like one of the new '6' trains they have been running(R-142?), but without the LCD Display and obviously longer cars. Is that an R-160? What up with that?
It's the first test R143, and I missed it by 20 minutes! Dammit!
lol. Im sure you will get another chance. I looks kinda plain and simple, lets see how long it holds up to the neighborhood artists lol. I carry my digital camera almost everywhere I go (Yes sometimes the clubs too) next time I spot it I'll take a few shots
I am doing the 5:25 "Z" tommow may be I will get to see them. If anyone wants to ride with me just come and meet the at Broad Street then. I am a big man (White to be more persice), who has wears glasses if anyone is there let me know. I keep my door open a little bit so I can get some air into the cab. Maybe I will see someone there, tell me your screen name. I don't know the rest of my trips becouse of the GO's this is the only trip I know that I am going to do for shore into the city.
Hope to see see you there.
Robert
Robert
I don't know when we'll be seeing them in the "East" again. I heard they were going to be transferred to Pitkin Yard, and undergo testing out on the flats. Well, tonight I was at B'way-Myrtle waiting to make my 23:15 M back to Met Av., and they came through southbound at 23:09, so I imagine that's where they were going.
About time that you came out from under that rock that you've been hiding under!!!
A TSS sad that the R143's were going to be transfersed in the next day or to the pikin yard. So I guess that it was yesterday. As for my 5:25p "Z" trip I did not do it. The G.O. work bad my last trip the 5:45p "Z" from braod street. So I got an extra 30min for a late clear.
Robert
Most likely an R143. So they are beginning to test them. Wonder how long before we see one in actual revenue service.
French railways
Trčs grand void
May 31st 2001
From The Economist print edition
World class in both speed and losses
AP
France’s expensive toy
LOUIS GALLOIS, the boss of SNCF (the French state railway operator), was radiantly happy glugging champagne in front of the television cameras last weekend, after a French high-speed train (TGV) had matched Japan’s world record for long-distance speed. The TGV covered the 663 miles (1,067km) from Calais to Marseilles in three-and-a-half hours, at an average speed of 190 miles an hour (306kph). At one point, the train clocked 366kph [227 mph], in a stunt organised by Mr Gallois to publicise the opening next week of the high-speed service from Paris to Marseilles. But it was of more than symbolic importance. It means that the impressive TGV network now covers the entire length and breadth of France.
Viewed from the English side of the Channel, the achievement is breathtaking. Once the new TGV service starts, it will be possible to travel from London’s Waterloo station to Marseilles in about six hours—two hours fewer than it takes to travel by train from London to Inverness in Scotland. There is talk of a direct train from Waterloo to the new Marseilles St Charles station. For Parisians, it means they can escape the cold and wet of the French capital to reach the balmy Côte d’Azur in just three hours—one hour 20 minutes less than the old service.
But there is another side to this tale of gloire: the French may rival Japan in their brilliant inter-city rail network, but, as taxpayers, they pay dearly for the privilege. There is a huge black hole in the railways’ accounts, into which billions of euros are poured each year. And there are parts of the network (notably the Ile de France area around Paris) where consumers are revolting against the horrible state of a train service that is reminiscent of southern England’s, with traffic outgrowing capacity and track and rolling stock wearing out too quickly.
On the surface, it looks as though the railways are making only a small loss of FFr1 billion ($130m), the figure expected this year after punishing strikes over Easter. But that is just the tip of un trčs grand iceberg. The real horror of French rail finances is buried in another company, called Réseau Ferré de France (RFF). RFF owns the track and signals, and charges SNCF, the sole national operator, for access. But it pays SNCF, in turn, for managing the network.
In the mid-1990s, the European Commission was pressing the French to separate track and rail operations in the interests of greater financial transparency, and also to open the way for some competition on the tracks. Eventually, the French opted for separation in 1997, but for a different reason: SNCF as it was then constituted was going as bust as only a nationalised industry could, halfway through spending FFr300 billion on its TGV network. So the huge debts were shunted into the new state-owned company—where the grim financial picture is still tucked away.
The accounts for 2000 show RFF running at a loss of euro1.7 billion a year. But the true figure is in fact much higher, because there is, in addition, a subsidy from the government of euro1.6 billion. Now that SNCF is itself slipping back into the red, that means that the total losses on French railways are around euro3.5 billion a year.
And the future looks even bleaker. The long-term debt inherited by RFF has risen from euro20.7 billion four years ago to euro22.8 billion, and there is little prospect of reducing it by much. So, over the past three years, under a programme known as “reform of reform”, the company has tapped the international capital markets for loans worth euro18.5 billion, not to spend on shiny new lines but just to refinance its old debts.
As a result, RFF pays interest charges amounting to euro2.4 billion a year. That is almost as great as its biggest trading expense, the euro2.6 billion it pays to SNCF for managing the network . Since the state guarantees the debt, RFF gets an extra subsidy in that it does not have to pay full market interest rates. In addition, RFF in its first four years enjoyed about euro5.4 billion of capital provided by the state. Each year the government puts in new equity to cover the loss: last year the figure was euro1.9 billion.
RFF is supposed to get itself into profit and start paying down its debts, but there is no reasonable prospect of that happening. Mr Gallois has been making noises for some months about redefining SNCF’s financial relations with RFF and the state. This year the 250km extension of the line to Marseilles will put up his access charges to euro1.7 billion. SNCF complains that the track charges will swallow all its passenger revenues on the Marseilles run.
Mr Gallois thinks that the government should just bite the bullet and take over the debts on RFF’s books, in effect writing off the infrastructure investment of building the high-speed network. In that way SNCF might win lower access charges. In practice, however, the government has asked RFF to reduce its borrowings by about half over the next ten years, and the European Commission is increasingly critical of France’s support for its railways, expecting a more commercial framework and the opening of at least some lines to competition. The first customers for Marseilles will be paying about euro62 for an off-peak single ticket, or euro75 at rush-hour. That may yet turn out to be a short-lived bargain at the taxpayer’s expense.
I read the article, but do not agree with it. The French have separate rail and train operators. The rail system loses money, relative to the amount of money the train operator(s) pay.
The road system also loses money -- it costs more to operate than it charges. That's true in France, and everywhere else.
Once you had a quality, free road network built with tax dollars, the comparison for rail shifted. The cost of the ROW should not be included.
And no, I don't accept that gas taxes fund the roads. I consider those to be charges in exchange for use of the air for "trash", not charges in exchange for use of the road.
I agree with much of what you've written.
Plus, consider this: Every passenger on TGVis one less on the road - how many fewer road repairs do you need in a country where trains are heavily used?
>>> The road system also loses money -- it costs more to operate than it charges. That's true in France, and everywhere else. <<<
Larry;
You seem to have a knee jerk defense of rail systems whenever any figures are given showing that subsidies are given to rail systems.
The fact of the matter is that real questions are what is the cost per ton mile or passenger mile to move freight or people by road, rail, air or water, considering all costs of each mode. My guess is that the results will be in order from cheapest to most expensive, water, road, rail and air. That said, all four modes of transportation are needed, and all four are subsidized to a certain extent. If a new road, or rail line is being considered, construction costs must be taken into consideration. For existing routes, maintenance and eventual replacement costs must be considered. Although all costs must be considered, the lowest cost is not necessarily the best solution in every case. Transportation has to planned as an integrated system both regionally and nationally.
Tom
>>considering all
costs of each mode. <<
yes indeed The major issue is which 'externalities' do you exclude, and usually by excluding major 'social' costs the figures get skewed.
For instance, few pro automobile studies reflect the massive real estate tax losses in 1, taking land off the rolls to 'use for highways, and 2 the lowered values for residences directly adjacent.
Then of course, there are the costs in 'public health' from smog etc. Delving deeper, auto users get subsidized fuel--the cost of US armed forces "protecting" the Saudis and friends is not part of the price.
Ultimately I believe. the economics are so fraudulent in most of these debates that they should simply be ignored. Thre decisions should be made on more 'social equity', environmental survival bases.
If everyone were as reasonable as that, we wouldn't have half the problems we do. Larry's reaction may be due to the prevalence of the "I like my car and to hell with everything else, since it obviously is a waste of money" attitude in the US. It frustrates me too.
But I agree with your post.
(The fact of the matter is that real questions are what is the cost per ton mile or passenger mile to move freight or people by road, rail, air or water, considering all costs of each mode. My guess is
that the results will be in order from cheapest to most expensive, water, road, rail and air.)
(Larry's reaction may be due to the prevalence of the "I like my car and to hell with everything else, since it obviously is a waste of money" attitude in the US.)
No, it is based on the assumption that considering all costs -- INCLUDING THE VALUE OF THE LAND REMOVED FROM OTHER USES and garbage disposal in the atmosphere -- rail is cheaper, but not all costs are accounted for. All costs are not generally accounted for, but if Old Tom were right, that would be different.
Well, despite problems mentioned here, I spotted both the R-142 and R-142a today. They seem to be running just fine. Especially since their both running during the rush hours. Whatever BIG R-142 problems there were, they must have been cleared up.
...an addendum also mentioned that the "problematic"
142a unit was pulled from service for (ruptured brake
pipe)... and that subsequently all other units would
be pulled as well.. to undergo shop treatment.
That has got to be one of the stupidest posts ever. Don't Redbirds have ruptured brake pipes? Yes they do? Don't all cars have ruptured brake pipes once in a while? Yes they do.
Well yea... but to have one THIS early in your
work career???... even more critical to have one
at a time when your makers are "having their
feet put to the fire" courtesy of the MTA brass
over the QUALITY of this overpriced
Kobe, Japan armadillo...
I don't know how the REDBIRD fleet performed in
it's TESTING / "newborn" days... but from my
perch, those r142s sure have racked up A LOT
of shop treatment hours...... for beginners.
Psst...Salaam... watch the r142 afficionados go into
'shock treatment' as the 142s go in for 'shop treatment..
It can happen to any cars, any time.
Listen you idiot, first of all, the R142s have been put into the shop for a variety of minor problems. I'll take the time to list them here...
-Bad Announcements (Ooooh Crippling!)
-Brakes Not Up To TA Standards (That Means They Didn't Stop EXACTLY When the TA Felt They Should)
-Going Too Fast (Yep, Faster Than Those Rustbirds You Cream Your Pants Over)
-A Brake Rupture (On One Car Mind You, AND A Problem That Can Happen On Any Car, Rustbirds Included)
That about sums up the R142 teething problems. Wow, only FOUR. The way some of you morons posted, these things were the R44/46 of the new millenium. Also, the TA wants these things perfect when they hit the road. If they wanted a fleet of junky trains, they'd keep the Bondo Squad running. These aren't the days where maintenance in the Subway Dpt. was deferred at best, when the Rustbirds when in their heydey. Actually, they never were, they were already rusting back in the 70s! HA! HA! Reliable my ass!
Like it or not Soft Cherry, the Rustbirds will be in the sea in a matter of months. The R142s are the future. You and Salmonella are in no position to do anything about it. Your incessant bitching and moaning will soon fall upon deaf ears. You two are already regarded as some of the most if not THE most ridiculous and idiotic posters on the board.
I suggest you stop whining like a little bitch that just got his candy stolen by the big bully and ride the Redbirds before the only place you can see them is on a scuba diving trip or further rusting away on storage tracks.
Those hideous things are so ugly. I think all subway cars, sans the r142 and r143 are ugly, but those blood red beasts are the worst. I wouldn't be surprised if someone choked on all the rampant rust in the air from those things.
So this is a message to all of the r142 haters....
THE R142S ARE NOT GOING ANYWHERE!!!!! IF YOU ARE OVER THIRTY, THEY WILL MOST LIKELY OUTLIVE YOU BARRING SOME TYPE OF AMAZING LIFESPAN LENGTHENING TECHNOLOGY! IN FACT, WITH TECHNOLOGY THE WAY IT IS, THESE THINGS WILL PROBABLY HAVE LIFESPANS THE LENGTH OF THE Q-TYPES!!!!! THAT MEANS THEY WILL HAVE LONGER LIVES THAN THE REDBIRDS!!!!!! HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA!!!!! SO GET USED TO THESE STAINLESS STEEL BEAUTIES RUSTBIRDS FANATICS, YOU'RE GOING TO SEE THEM FOR A LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOONG TIME! IF YOU WANT TO SEE RUSTBIRDS BEYOND THE YEAR 2002, I SUGGEST YOU ORDER ONE OF SALMONELLAS TAPES. AT LEAST WE KNOW HE IS DOING SOMETHING WITH HIS TIME.
There, I've said my piece.
Happened to me while I was on my way to school six years ago. I was on a train of R33s on the 2. The train got stuck in the Clark Street Tunnel and after about twenty minutes, TA workers came into my car, 8912, and keyed open the right front side door and went out of the car to inspect the car. Then the train limped into Clark Street and went out of service due to "brake failure." I missed my entire second period class and half of my third period class. Not a fun time.
Definately not a good place to get stuck.
no they will not. the one that was pulled was because it was defective.
I dunno where you heard that, but you heard wrong! I saw an R142A in service this Monday on the 6 train. Only the five-car set with the brake rupture is out of service.
Today, I noticed something: The lay-up space for 6 trains at Bklyn. Bridge: City Hall is AFTER the turn off into the City Hall loop. How do trains get onto that turn around from the Lay-up tracks?
They don't- they are just stub tracks.
-Harry
www.zdeno.com
What they do is back up onto the downtown local track, where the 6 trains empty out passengers. Then, they go forward through the loop as any train would. Trains usually done in the evening and just before the rush hour crowds come. I have seen #6 trains, and an R62A #5 train do that just before the evening rush hour a couple of times. Nothing new.
CWalNYC
R62A_1776
So, that was a 5 I saw at Brooklyn Bridge!
Then, I have another question:
So they terminate 5 trains at Brooklyn Bridge? It seems hard to get a 5 there from Bowling Green or even more so from Flatbush.
They don't generally "terminate" any trains at Brooklyn Bridge. Locals go around the City Hall Loop (w/o passengers, as we all know) and return to the Bronx. Express trains go either to Brooklyn or into the inner loop at South Ferry(also w/o pax), from which they also return to the Bronx. Perhaps the 5 train you saw on the layup track had a problem that required attention before it was safe to move it back to the yard.
First, I'd like to complain that those new light rail cars are NOT running YEt. When will they start running??? When are they going to finish Branch Brook Park Station so that the Kinkisharyo cars can run already???
Another thing? Where is the Newark City Subway Yard?? Is it near those tracks that go to the right just past Newark Penn Station or somewhere else? I thought those tracks were to be used for a possible Newark Broad Street Station expansion. Well, let me know ASAP, if you can. Thanx.
CWalNYC
NJT_Newark_Subway_PCC_#23
When are they going to finish Branch Brook Park Station so that the Kinkisharyo cars can run already???
The station is finished.
Okay, so are the light rail cars running or not??? I am anxious to see the day that they run on Newark City Subway tracks.
CWalNYC
Kinkisharyo_LRT_107A/B
The Newark City Subway still features PCCs. The date for switchover to LRVs keeps getting pushed back.
David
You are about 7 miles in the wrong direction, the new subway yards for the NCS are actually in Bloomfield, they are at the end of the line the opposite direction (end) from Newark Penn, they are at Grove St and Watsessing ave in Bloomfield also the new terminal for the NCS.
Mike
"Mr Mass Transit"
How strong is FRA Type 2 safety glass? Can it withstand a large object thrown at the train at high speed?
Reprotedly, it will stop a small caliber bulletat a reasonable distance
Isn't the TA glass FRA Type III?
There used to be a sticker on the SIR R44's to that effect. Type 3 only for SIR?
I believe the TA has only type II except perhaps on the R142. There are 2 types of type II. There is heat treated and there is chemically treated glass.
The first contract for the El replacement has hit the street (Cobbs Creek west) and bids are due in late July.
Just arrived with diesels at 2300 hours from Linden Yard heading to East 180th Street.
-Stef
I know that they were running the R-110's on the C line not too long ago and that according to a link from the R-110 info page, they are departing from 168th St. at approximately 10 Am. However, at the same time, I know that the C starts running from 145 st by that time. First and foremost, is the R-110 still running and if so, does anyone know its present schedule. Thanks. --Kevin.
They're all being worked on in 207th St yard
Doe ALL mean six or nine cars?
avid
ALL means all remaining cars; the MTA cannibalized one three-car set for parts, so there are only two sets or six cars functioning.
Dan
Thats why I had asked. Foolish me, I thought the TA might have been restoring ALL of the cars. What was I thinking? I guess I'll never learn....
avid
I saw all 9 in the yard. Some were in the barn (track 19) and others were outside next to the 142's.
The 110A is now inside the barn at Pitkin
>>I thought the TA might have been restoring ALL of the cars. What was I thinking? I guess I'll never learn....<<
avid: you may be right. someone here posted that the 3 cannabalized cars were awaiting parts and returning to service. This was on this site though, so it could be wrong.
The last time I was at 207th Street, they were working on the 3 cars that were cannibalized. Yje plan is to restore all 9 cars...
to have white seats?
When does the C train run from 145th Street. I thought that as a result of the terminal switch with the B from around March 1998, all C trains alwasys run to and from 168. Am I correct?
Bill/Piggo
Correct! C trains no longer terminate at 145, due to the B/C terminal switch of 1 March 1998.
Also, the R131 (R110B) cars run out of 207th Street yard.
"Also, the R131 (R110B) cars run ut of 207th Street yard"
R131?!? When did that designation come about? Does anyone have the real story as to what the TA intends to do with this equipment and the R110A (Is there a new designation for that one as well?)
The last I heard was that the three canibalized R110B units were awaiting parts for restoration and return to service.
And that the R110A was to be shipped out to KHI for conversion to R142 specs and returned to service.
That has always been the designation - R110A/B were the design contracts; R130/131 were the build contracts.
If that is the members.aol.com/orentree thing, that is my site and I no longer maintain that page.
With all of this talk of the most successful subway cars of all time, I have to admit that I feel that the Chicago 6000-series cars are synonymous with the Windy City still (even though they have long since been retired). Anytime I watch TV and see old clips featuring these relics (esp. w/ the blinker doors) I say "CHICAGO" (any "Bob Newhart" or "Good Times" fan can relate!!). Tony
YES although the new vcars are ADA, have AC(great!), the 11 year old still inside is standing at the front door nose to glass looking at everything as we grind south from the Loop on a "Jackson Park B Train.
Going back to my 1961 and 1963 visits to Chi town...can't remember wind blowing there very often....I did as much mileage as I could on the old 4000's which were more to my liking as I started life on the original IRT stuff, R1-9 etc.
Did ride the 6000's to cover lines where they were the sole rolling stock; the Howard-Jackson Park line was a blast; loved the South side el just south of the loop...long before there were any speed controls. Damn pity it doesn't go to Jackson Park anymore.
In my youth I never was a fan of PCC cars in any form but later got to respect them for the years they served, and the 6000's were no exception. They could highball along even if they were noisy enough to make the R10 sound quiet; at least I thought so.
As I was riding in car 6331 coming home from work, I spotted R142 cars 6596-6600 going up M track at Intervale Avenue. This was around 11:00pm. Yes, they were hauled in by diesels....
I spotted that train! You were coming from work? The GO on the 2 for South Ferry is in effect again this coming weekend. I'll be riding it once I'm done working at Bowling Green. It's a one seat ride home for me....
-Stef
Hey Mister, how do I get to the Ferry??
Can I buy a fun pass?
No the Statue of Liberty Ferry... ;-P
Trying to be a wise guy? Nyuk, nyuk!
-Stef
Yeah, I had a job on the 5. Make sure to go to Wall Street to get the 2. It does not stop @ BG.
It doesn't stop at BG in either direction? I thought it would at least stop at Bowling Green on the way into Wall St.
-Stef
ehh, no... if this GO is similar to the one last fall,
the 2 scoots RIGHT THRU Bowling Green.. sans stop.
Which GO is this? Is this the one where the 2 runs through the inner loop at South Ferry and then back up the 5 line?
Dan
It's a night GO where the 2 from Brooklyn operates on the 4 to Wall St, changes directions at Wall St, and travels by the South Ferry Loop to Chambers St before resuming normal service uptown.
-Stef
I read the article, but do not agree with it. The French have separate rail and train operators. The rail system loses money, relative to the amount of money the train operator(s) pay.
The road system also loses money -- it costs more to operate than it charges. That's true in France, and everywhere else.
Once you had a quality, free road network built with tax dollars, the comparison for rail shifted. The cost of the ROW should not be included.
And no, I don't accept that gas taxes fund the roads. I consider those to be charges in exchange for use of the air for "trash", not charges in exchange for use of the road.
I agree with much of what you've written.
Plus, consider this: Every passenger on TGVis one less on the road - how many fewer road repairs do you need in a country where trains are heavily used?
>>> The road system also loses money -- it costs more to operate than it charges. That's true in France, and everywhere else. <<<
Larry;
You seem to have a knee jerk defense of rail systems whenever any figures are given showing that subsidies are given to rail systems.
The fact of the matter is that real questions are what is the cost per ton mile or passenger mile to move freight or people by road, rail, air or water, considering all costs of each mode. My guess is that the results will be in order from cheapest to most expensive, water, road, rail and air. That said, all four modes of transportation are needed, and all four are subsidized to a certain extent. If a new road, or rail line is being considered, construction costs must be taken into consideration. For existing routes, maintenance and eventual replacement costs must be considered. Although all costs must be considered, the lowest cost is not necessarily the best solution in every case. Transportation has to planned as an integrated system both regionally and nationally.
Tom
>>considering all
costs of each mode. <<
yes indeed The major issue is which 'externalities' do you exclude, and usually by excluding major 'social' costs the figures get skewed.
For instance, few pro automobile studies reflect the massive real estate tax losses in 1, taking land off the rolls to 'use for highways, and 2 the lowered values for residences directly adjacent.
Then of course, there are the costs in 'public health' from smog etc. Delving deeper, auto users get subsidized fuel--the cost of US armed forces "protecting" the Saudis and friends is not part of the price.
Ultimately I believe. the economics are so fraudulent in most of these debates that they should simply be ignored. Thre decisions should be made on more 'social equity', environmental survival bases.
If everyone were as reasonable as that, we wouldn't have half the problems we do. Larry's reaction may be due to the prevalence of the "I like my car and to hell with everything else, since it obviously is a waste of money" attitude in the US. It frustrates me too.
But I agree with your post.
(The fact of the matter is that real questions are what is the cost per ton mile or passenger mile to move freight or people by road, rail, air or water, considering all costs of each mode. My guess is
that the results will be in order from cheapest to most expensive, water, road, rail and air.)
(Larry's reaction may be due to the prevalence of the "I like my car and to hell with everything else, since it obviously is a waste of money" attitude in the US.)
No, it is based on the assumption that considering all costs -- INCLUDING THE VALUE OF THE LAND REMOVED FROM OTHER USES and garbage disposal in the atmosphere -- rail is cheaper, but not all costs are accounted for. All costs are not generally accounted for, but if Old Tom were right, that would be different.
Nonstop from Coney Island to 59th St going to Manhattan, took 4 minutes to 86th, and 11 more to 59th, making a total of 15. We passed one N, and never really cleared 35mph b/c of all the timers, and it's annoying how you have to slow so much to go down the hill to the subway. It took 3 more minutes to 36th, making a total of 18 min from CI to 36th. The NX that used this track was discontinued due to lack of ridership, but I think it would've been more popular if it made at least one or two stops from CI to 59th. Nonstop is really taking it too far. It could've used the local track from CI to Kings Hwy, and then switch and run non-stop. It would then be much better.
The NX was set up to fail. It was put in service to pretend to give something to Brighton Beach riders losing most of their Broadway service.
When it did fail, the TA chiefs must have sighed and said "well, at least we're done with that."
The NX was set up to fail. It was put in service to pretend to give something to Brighton Beach riders losing most of their Broadway service.
When it did fail, the TA chiefs must have sighed and said "well, at least we're done with that."
But did the NX have all those timers back in its Day?
I think not....
Kings Highway-8th Avenue was an absolute block. Any speed restrictions would have been by trackside sign.
Around 7:30 p.m. on Wednesday, the Sixth Avenue platform at Herald Square was empty, save for a few cops and a lot of police tape. Trains passed through the station without stopping (downtown anyway, possibly both directions). What happened?
Well the news didn't say anything (as usual). I guess maybe we'll find out in the paper. Probably some criminal incident.
there was GUN run to past
there was GUN run to past attempted robbery call came in 20 minutes prior to that time, thats what i was told
50th Street Tower (North side Uptown Patform 47th St./50th St. Station on 6th Ave) was out of automatic this morning with a whole bunch of TA guys with radios and ties milling around and telling uptown express T/O's not to punch and one young lady in jeans sitting at the board.
Seems you couldn't get a line up for 57th Street if it was on automatic so it was back to the tired and true methods. The F even had Green over Green but no one stopped those T/O's from punching, to much work for those guys in the ties to call the T/O from the opposite side of the cab I guess. Sure was enough of them.
An old timer T/O even thanked the tower for the lineup, my ears are still ringing....
Heh. Back in my days, there were folks in there and even with route signs and all, they still wanted you to light up the light for them on the big BS board before they'd hand you a clear. I'd make faces at them while they were writing down the car number. :)
Sunday Newsday, Section B, Page 7 has a very pro article by non-Newsday editiors Paul M. Weyrich & William S. Lind. They even included comments from 6 "other voices" in a side bar (NYSDOT, Seashore Chair, rubber tired trolleybus mfg., Tri-State Trans. Compaign rep. & 2 local officials)
While the article is pro in it's text, it has some glaring ommisions:
- Cities where trolleys exist ... missed Boston, Philly & Newark
- Museums ... Seashore of ME, but not Shoreline of CT
- Proposed Nassau Hub system not mentioned
The 1911 photo shows a trolley using a overpass to cross LIRR steam train at Amityville.
Mr t__:^)
Thurston, I didn't see that piece. Maybe you could summrize it for us?
When the current LI ISTEA planning process started, light rail was nowhere to be found. It was inserted into the mix but then knocked down after it condensed to an absurd loop along several Nassau county parkways.
About the most material reason advanced (off the record) for not attempting to bring light rail to LI is that there is too much demand for it around the nation and that NYS has bigger fish to fry (2nd Avenue Subway, LIRR-GCT, &c.) than to try to compete for light rail funds.
Sunday Nrewsday trolleys article
Other Voices column
I'd be amazed if any city or town in the NY Metro area would ever build a trolley line. The rubber and oil interests are too politically strong trolleys to come back, IMHO.
No, it's not the rubber and oil interests. (They're not powerful in NJ, where HBLR and Camden-Trenton are running/UC?)
It's state politicians and state DOT, whose interest in Light Rail runs from indifferent to hostile.
Right ... there is a NYSDOT Transportation Plan for Long Island that is all roads, no light rail, no LIRR extensions, etc.
Opposing that is a traffic calming effort ... rotarys, bike paths, trees, etc., BUT again no light rail.
That's why I found the Newsday article so interesting, i.e. something no one else is talking about, included some local government supporters.
There was once a plan to create a North-South light rail line from Oyster Bay. I don't think anything like that will happen to existing LIRR ROWs though. More recently there was the Nassau Loop light rail proposal. This or something down Route 110 might have a chance of flying. Freeport to Mineola ... I don't think so, all street running on narrow streets.
Mr t__:^)
The idea of reestablishing the long defunct Freeport to Mineola trolley route would be an excellent one. Two old neighbors of mine in Freeport, Blanche and John W. Bruckner (who died in 1977 and 1978 respectively) spoke often about the streetcar that once ran down the center of Freeport's Main Street on its way to Hempstead. Though it stopped running in 1923 and the tracks were taken up during WWII, the impression it made on that old couple was tremendous. Unfortunately, I doubt that there are many still alive who remember it. Here's hoping that Nassau County wises up and brings it back to life.
E_DOG
It would be nice to bring back trolley service or even trolley bus service, but again Nassau County is a very different mind set, similar to California where the automobile is supreme. Nassau County government has not been pro-transit with the LIBUS and I don't think they would be pro-trolley. On a very local level, there are better chances for that to actually happen. The mayor of Glen Cove is pushing for a trolley system in his city for the new waterfront projects being planned.
Nassau County is nuts, period (about transit and everything else)! How else can you explain it's county government (run by that idiot Thomas (no brains) Gulotta) running up a deficit of over 200 million dollars while practically the rest of the country was showing a surplus?
E_DOG
This is what the government of Nassau County caters to for years. They have never really been proactive when it came to transit because the way people think in Nassau County is PRO-CAR. So for years, very little effort is done to improve mass transit in the county. It would be great if more where done on a county level, but now the way things are, "it ain't happening, at least of a while."
I noticed that the T/O of the LIRR trains on the Far Rock line sounds a series of beeps on the train horn every time it passes a grade crossing. The pattern is : LONG-LONG-Short-LONG.
Is this mandated by some federal law or is it an MTA/LIRR rule?
That has been the standard railroad grade crossing tone since time immemorial--which is my way of saying "I don't know when it started" and it's universal throughout the U.S., at a minimum.
The necessity to sound off at grade crossings is a federal rule. I believe that certain details--how loud the whistle/horn is, when it must be sounded, etc., is state-mandated.
In New York, the part of the rule I know is that the sound must be loud enough to be heard a mile away in the least favorable weather condition, and that the last part of the blast must be sounded until the locomotive actually enters the crossing.
Trivia question for transit fans on the forum: what were the rules at the E.105th Street crossing?
SEPTA does the same. The last long blast must be maintained until the first car, or locomotive, clears the crossing.
LIRR trains preparing to stop at a station (eg New Hyde Park) immediately after the crossing often don't bother with a sustained blast.
States have the authority to allow locales to overrule the whistle rule; Massachusetts has such a law. For example, the town of West Medford has overrulled the rule, and MBTA commuter trains do not blow the whistle at grade crossings.
How fast do MBTA trains run through West Medford? Who is liable if someone gets whacked by an MBTA train not giving an auditory warning? What happens if people in Attleboro want an exemption, too, like the people in West Medford?
MAS at West Medford is 40 mph.
You got me as to who is liable. But the town passed the ordinance...
It would not be an issue in Attleboro, as there are no grade crossings there. But any town that doesn't want the noise, just has to pass the local ordinance.
I think we have a problem, which would quickly come to the fore in a highly politicized place like NY.
Individual towns have asked that trains not blow for grade crossings in the early hours, but to exempt some places would quickly have every little village and hamlet wanting an exemption.
If horn blowing is necessarty, it doesn't make sense that it is necessary for one place but not another.
I'm surprised that people all over the MBTA district aren't passing these laws, or are people more mellow about train horns for some reason?
Up here where we are in Voorheesville, freights blow by about once every ten minutes, blaring all the way (four GC's in the village alone) five loud blasts for each one. All through the night as well. You *DO* get used to it and while some folks here complain, it is after all a railroad town. Ya don't like it, MOVE. :)
One might hope (expect?) that when you move somewhere, you might stop, look and listen and see if there's a railroad about. If the sounds of choochoos are irksome, perhaps you might want to live somewhere else?
When I lived in the Bronx, we had the third avenue el RIGHT outside the window and when I lived elsewhere, the el wasn't far away. Now elevateds are a whole lot NOISIER than plain old railroads on the ground. When I went away from the city, I found I couldn't sleep as well WITHOUT the trains and around here, I tend to not sleep as well when I *don't* hear the horns.
Then again, I hang out here on subtalk so there's something fundamentally WRONG with me. :)
I read a story about one guy who spent his youngest years by the 3rd Ave. el [Back In the Bronx magazine which I get] and slept well with the sound of the trains. When they moved to another neighborhood with no el he had to get a Lionel set to run at night so he could sleep. True story.
I lived on Walton off Tremont for a while and my living room faced the Jerome El. The trains never bothered me except when watching TV and a train ALWAYS went by when the punchline came. Not just the thunder but the picture would jump up and down. Then again low flying planes did that too.
A tape recorder might have been less expensive.
When I moved to LA from New York in time for the sixth grade, it was too quiet! I had to get used to sleeping without the comforting sound of the 4 train rumbling out of 161rst St station. It took a while.
Many towns have anti-whistle ordinances in eastern Massachusetts. In fact I recall very few MBTA lines I've ridden where the horns are sounded.
Here's an interesting article from about four years ago.
And another from last year.
And another.
Wonder if any north shore LI towns ban horn blowing as well?
No one bans train horn sounding on LI because NYS says you can't.
"No one bans train horn sounding on LI because NYS says you can't."
Smile....
They don't sound the horns in Merrick anymore. : )
If you pay enough money, you *can* make the horns go away.
Elias
There are no grade crossings in Merrick. If you want to hear horns, stand on the Merrick Station platform around 6:40 AM M-F. My regular train blows through every station.
"There are no grade crossings in Merrick."
Hehehehehe......
Funny, they were there when I was a kid! : )
I used to take the 6:06 from there back in the early 80's, It was train 93 in those days) but of course that was long after the grade crossing elimination.
Elias
I sincerely doubt that train whistle-blowing hurts property values - esp. in places where the railroad made the land valuable in the first place, as in the article. There's no data to support that; only anecdotal complaints.
Still, I could see a compromise: trains don't blow whistles at crossings, and (so long as the crossing gate is functioning correctly) railroads are held absolutely immune from any kind of lawsuit should someone get onto the tracks and be run over.
Of course the same city council people wouldn't like that either...You always want to have it both ways....
As a homeowner who lives two blocks from the Cedarhurst LIRR station, I can tell you that the closer you live to the railroad tracks, the less your property is worth. The Cedarhurst station lies between two grade crossings (Washington Avenue and Cedarhurst Avenue), so I get serenaded by two full sets of honking every time a train pulls in and out of the station - in both directions! I personally don't mind because I love trains and its convenient to have the train so close by, but many of our friends have told us that they would never live that close to the train. In Cedarhurst, as well as in nearby Lawrence and Woodmere, the house prices go down the closer you get to the tracks. Also, you'll find more garden apartments and apartment buildings, which are newer than the houses, the closer you get to the tracks in those areas, because the houses that were there were sold to developers after the owners couldn't get the prices they wanted.
Living next to a railway line might've raised property values at the turn of the 20th century, but with the advent of the automobile, railways are no longer perceived to be a necessary inconvenience.
It does seem, in your case, that the horns are the source of most of the problem. Most real estate studies show that the presence of a commuter rail station in the area increases property values. The automobile and roads has done nothing to change that. In fact, as traffic worsens, so do property values.
LIRR got a $50 million state grant to eliminate grade crossings, but this will not cover every crossing.
The best and safest way to deal with an RR crossing is, if possible, to eliminate it.
"Most real estate studies show that the presence of a commuter rail station in the area increases property values."
Yes. And real estate prices and rents in Chicago go up the closer you get to an L station, despite the (in)famous noise of the Ls and the fact that MANY houses and apartment buildings back right onto the line -- lots of alley Ls in Chicago.
That's different - the "L" is a historic landmark. Its kind of like what would've happened in NYC if the 3rd Avenue el had never been torn down - it'd have been a landmark today.
It's got nothing to do with the L being a landmark, because rents and prices go up near modern extensions to the system too. People want to be near an L station because they can get to and from work faster.
The same holds true in the DC area. My younger daughter (a law student at Georgetown) was apartment-hunting this spring because Georgetown doesn't have residence space for second and third year law students. Prices were extremely high for apartments close to a Metro stop; her former roommate (who doesn't own a car) is now paying $850/month plus utilities for a studio apartment three blocks from the metro station (Silver Spring or Forest Glen, I don't remember which). My daughter and her current roommate are paying $1180/month plus utilities for a three bedroom townhouse about 2.5 miles from the Glenmont station, but they'll also have to either ride the bus or drive to the station and pay $2.25/day for parking.
The big advantage of her new location is that I drive right by the National Capital Trolley Museum in Wheaton, about two miles from her place - a good excuse to check up on her if I ever need one :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
You raise an interesting point. The Five Towns is considered a wealthy area through which the LIRR runs on grade with many street crossings. There are some low-rise apartment buildings, many of them co-ops and condos, along Central Avenue, which parallels the ROW by one block from Inwood through Woodmere. These may have been constructed due to an increasing number of people moving from the city who wanted the suburban ambience AND convenience to the railroad without having to purchase a house.
Great Neck Plaza is another Nassau village loaded with apartment buildings due to its location on the very popular Port Washington line. The area must have become heavily developed much sooner than others on the Island because the cut the railroad runs through dates back from 1912, I think.
Some people feel one branch or another of a railroad undergoes grade-crossing removal because the areas along it are 'richer', witness the Babylon branch, which was completely elevated by 1980. The cynical view is that this was done to appease the residents of Merrick, Bellmore, Wantagh et al because they allegedly have money. While this may partially true, the late state senator Norman Levy, a longtime resident of Merrick, was instumental in the grade-crossing elimination. Traffic safety along adjacent Sunrise Highway was another factor.
The Ronkonkoma branch runs ground-level through some impoverished Suffolk communities. There are many crossings in Wyandanch, Brentwood and Central Islip, and the 1987 electrification brought a huge increase in service; hence more down time for the gates. The electrification does seem to have revived Central Islip, with its new baseball stadium and court complex, so it's a double-edged sword.
It's hard to make any argument that "poor areas have crossings, rich areas don't." The completely crossingless Babylon branch also runs through communities of color and some poverty, such as Freeport, Amityville and Copiague. Conversely, wealthier areas like the aforementioned Five Towns, Locust Valley, Saint James and the Hamptons have many crossings. So do upper Bergen County, some of the tonier Philadelphia suburbs, NJT's Gladstone branch and MN's Danbury branch.
Granted, the biggest concentration of crossings along a commuter line I've ever seen- about twelve blocks in a row- is along NJT's Coast Line in downtown Asbury Park, an area noticeably on the skids. It's supposed to be much nicer by the oceanfront; some large mansions and wooded areas are visible a short distance east. But then the Coast Line is crossing-laden its entire length, including the fancy precincts of Middletown, Allenhust, Spring Lake, Manasquan and Bay Head.
So you can draw your own conclusions according to your viewpoint.
Granted, the biggest concentration of crossings along a commuter line I've ever seen- about twelve blocks in a row- is along NJT's Coast Line in downtown Asbury Park, an area noticeably on the skids. It's supposed to be much nicer by the oceanfront
Trust me, the Asbury Park waterfront area is not nicer than anything. It is ... surrealistic, for lack of a better term.
Well, a few points about your post:
1) Central Avenue is not one block from the RR line in Cedarhurst. Its two, and in some places, three blocks from the line.
2) I don't think that there is a correlation between affluence and grade crossing elimination, for the reasons you mention. I do think it has much more to do with the amount of vehicular and pedestrian traffic in the area and safety reasons. The LIRR is elevated along the entire length of the route as it longs along Sunrise Highway, presumably because of the immense tie-ups that would occur if vehicles turning off Sunrise Highway had to wait for trains to pass. The same goes for the recent grade crossing project in Mineola - if I recall correctly, it only occurred after someone was killed trying to cross the tracks.
The bottom line is that the line through the Five Towns will not be elevated until the amount of traffic makes it unsafe to have it at grade. Elevating a line is very expensive and time consuming, not to mention disrupting to the surrounding area. (Also - not everyone likes living near an "el" - so there might be community opposition to it.)
I know the LIRR wants to eliminate all main line crossings between Hicksville and Jamaica, but the NIMBY's in New Hyde Park (which is where the worst danger is IMO) block it.
The crossing at New Hyde Park road is especially congested, and often cars get stopped on the tracks from the back-up at the Jericho Tpke light. This, like the Herricks road crossing, should be the next to go.
Let the NIMBY's go to hell, they are fools to ignore the potential danger at that crossing.
2 crossings west of New Hyde park is Covert Avenue. More train - auto accidents have occurred there over the past 10 years than any other crossing. It would also be the easiest to eliminate but the LIRR wants to do blocks of crossings at a time. There are 4 crossings at mineola. These seem to be the next to be done. It would appear that the 3rd M/L track would go in at that time and the Nassau Junction would be re-designed.
One crossing at Mineola has already been eliminated by bringing the road over the tracks.
As to New Hyde Park - agreed, three RR crossings close together, + irresponsible drivers, = tragedy.
Of course, the NHP crossings have four-quadrant gates, pedestrian gates, extra lights, and bells which continue to ring even after the gates are down. Short of eliminating the crossing entirely, you can't make it safer than that.
I know the LIRR wants to eliminate all main line crossings between Hicksville and Jamaica, but the NIMBY's in New Hyde Park (which is where the worst danger is IMHO) block it.
The crossing at New Hyde Park road is especially congested, and often cars get stopped on the tracks from the back-up at the Jericho Tpke light. This, like the Herricks road crossing, should be the next to go.
Let the NIMBY's go to hell, they are fools to ignore the potential danger at that crossing.
The LIRR is elevated along the entire length of the route as it longs along Sunrise Highway, presumably because of the immense tie-ups that would occur if vehicles turning off Sunrise Highway had to wait for trains to pass. The same goes for the recent grade crossing
project in Mineola - if I recall correctly, it only occurred after someone was killed trying to cross the tracks.
It was worse than that - the incident involved several teens riding in a van. I'm not sure if any of them survived. The crash occurred sometime in the early to mid-1980's, and in addition to getting the Herricks Road grade crossing eliminated it was widely cited as one of the factors which led the Legislature to raise NYS's legal drinking age to 21 (federal requirements would have brought about the same result in a year or two anyhow).
It should not come as any surprise to hear that the LIRR made a complete mess out of the elimination project. Completion took many years and went vastly over budget.
"if I recall correctly, it only occurred after someone was killed trying to cross the tracks."
I think it was 8 teens including the daughter of a state senator that were killed when they went around the gates.
Yes, that was it.
it was widely cited as one of the factors which led the Legislature to raise NYS's legal drinking age to 21 (federal requirements would have brought about the same result in a year or two anyhow).
Another case of punishing a large group for the crimes of the few.
[Herricks Road crash]it was widely cited as one of the factors which led the Legislature to raise NYS's legal drinking age to 21 (federal requirements would have brought about the same result in a year or two anyhow).
Another case of punishing a large group for the crimes of the few.
How true ... punishing everyone is the easy way out, which is why it's appealing to politicians.
It seems there are far too many factors influencing real estate prices to blame the existence or non-existence of grade crossings for relative changes in price. This is especially true on Long Island, where the railroad pre-dates the majority of the housing stock.
In Mitch45's case, I'm sure his home is considerably more valuable than a similar home in the downtown areas of Elmont, East Meadow or Uniondale (all LIRR-less). It is certainly worth more than a similar home in the downtown areas of grade-crossing free Hempstead and Long Beach. In Garden City (likely more similar to Cedarhurst in terms of affluence than any of the afore-mentioned towns), there is no noticable change in housing prices as you get further from the railroad crossings. In fact, the most "affordable" neighborhoods in Garden City are probably those furthest east -- those not in short walking distance to the LIRR.
That houses in the Five Towns are more valuable further away from the tracks likely has much more to do with the availability of larger plots of land further from the railroad, the perceived desirability of waterfront living and the age of the houses in the downtown areas.
CG
Granted, the biggest concentration of crossings along a commuter line I've ever seen - about twelve blocks in a row - is along NJT's Coast Line in downtown Asbury Park, an area noticeably on the skids. It's supposed to be much nicer by the oceanfront; some large mansions and wooded areas are visible a short distance east. But then the Coast Line is crossing-laden its entire length, including the fancy precincts of Middletown, Allenhust, Spring Lake, Manasquan and Bay Head.
Asbury Park is a drug-infested slum. Directly adjacent to it is the town of Ocean Grove, where you see the mansions; all of the land in lily-white, Christian Ocean Grove is owned by the Methodist Church, although you own your structure. The waterfront area of Asbury Park is a wasteland of abandoned hotels and amusement areas, punctuated by gunfire on a regular basis.
Deal, Allenhurst, Interlaken, and Spring Lake are super-fancy areas, and most of the rest of the Coast Line south of Spring Lake is pretty nice too. Middletown is just another suburb, upscale but not exclusive like the others. AT&T has a major facility there, directly adjacent to the tracks; the Middletown station would have been relocated to the edge of the AT&T site a few years back rather than renovated at its present site had NJT been allowed to accept AT&T's offer of the land and the free public parking decks that AT&T would have built for commuters (political pressure from certain influential Middletown residents squashed that).
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Middletown is just another suburb, upscale but not exclusive like the others. AT&T has a major facility there, directly adjacent to the tracks; the Middletown station would have been relocated to the edge of the AT&T site a few years back rather than renovated at its present site had NJT been allowed to accept AT&T's offer of the land and the free public parking decks that AT&T would have built for commuters (political pressure from certain influential Middletown residents squashed that).
I'll bet that many of those influential Middletown residents, who kiboshed AT&T's plan to build a new station with parking decks, are bemoaning the lack of parking at the existing station.
I'll bet that many of those influential Middletown residents, who kiboshed AT&T's plan to build a new station with parking decks, are bemoaning the lack of parking at the existing station.
The main issue was the loss of revenue to the town. Middletown, not NJT, owns the two parking lots adjacent to the station, and operates a shuttle service from a third lot a mile or so away. They have oversold the capacity of the lots and restrict the sale of permits to residents of the township, so the only "public" parking available during the week is that provided by 80 metered spots. AT&T would have furnished approximately 4500 parking spaces - more than triple the current capacity - with the proviso that they be perpetually free. In addition to costing the town revenue, this would have brought commuters from other areas (most notably commuters who now drive to the equally packed Hazlet and Aberdeen/Matawan stations), increasing road congestion in the immediate area. NJT would have paid for widening Laurel Avenue where it narrows to cross under the NJCL (the new station access would have been off Laurel Avenue, between the tracks and the AT&T site) and the preferred station plan would have included two center tracks and two island platforms, with the center tracks extending south far enough to lay up two trains each. But such was not to be.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
"In addition to costing the town revenue, this would have brought commuters from other areas..."
Isn't this the POINT of a commuter train station, to pull in riders from towns not directly along the train line, as well as the station towns? In other words, the station located in a given town isn't supposed to be the God-given exclusive property of that town by accident of physical location.
I live in a first-ring suburb that doesn't have a subway or commuter route through it, but I have no problem parking (for $20 a month) at the station two towns and ten minutes away. If that town got it into its head to keep all non-residents out of the train lots, then ...??
This is one of the big problems with parking at train stations being controlled by the towns and not the commuter rail authority.
Isn't this the POINT of a commuter train station, to pull in riders from towns not directly along the train line, as well as the station towns? In other words, the station located in a given town isn't supposed to be the God-given exclusive property of that town by accident of physical location.
Heh heh, even if I didn't know that you were from Chicago, I could tell clear as day that you're not from New York!
If that town got it into its head to keep all non-residents out of the train lots, then ...??
You gotta remember, this here's Jersey... some would say that it's just revenge for the shore towns charging to you walk on the "public" beach and banning parking on the streets by non-residents during the summer months (you can park in the parking lots for $5 to $10 per day, though...).
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Deal, Allenhurst, Interlaken, and Spring Lake are super-fancy areas, and most of the rest of the Coast Line south of Spring Lake is pretty nice too.
And let's not forget Belmar, which seems like Party Animal City. I'll bet more beer kegs are sold there on a summer weekend than in other cities with twenty times the population!
"The cynical view is that this was done to appease the residents of Merrick, Bellmore, Wantagh et al because they allegedly have money. While this may partially true, the late state senator Norman Levy, a longtime resident of Merrick, was instumental in the grade-crossing elimination. Traffic safety along adjacent Sunrise Highway was another factor."
As a long time (former) resident of Merrick, I did not think of the place as being particularly rich, untill newer houser were build in South Merrick on what used to be swamp land, or even out into the bay itself.
Anyway, I remember when the automatic gates were installed in Merrick, and Freeport still had the hand-cranked gates. My father told me that Freeport was to be elevated soon, and so they did not bother to improve the gates.
And so it came to pass that Freeport and Baldwin were elevated, and Merrick and most points east remained on the ground. I remember as kids going down to the train tracks to put pennies on them. (We were told to stay away from the third rails, whcih naturally were also on the ground.) There was a fence between the tracks to keep commuters from cutting across the tracks.
I also rmember we had a lot of deaths at the crossings. Not cars so much as pedestrians. they would walk around the gate and wait for the eastbound to clear, and then run across.... paying no notice to the westbound. Opps.... Pity.
I remember when the elevated Merrick. Some complained that it would be like building a chinese wall through the middle of town. It was noting of the sort. There were more places to cross, and being elevated, from ground level almost disapeared as far as view and traffic were concerned.
Elias
I'm surprised that people all over the MBTA district aren't passing these laws, or are people more mellow about train horns for some reason?
The MTA is immune from all local ordinances.
Stephen is correct.
The fact that MBTA doesn't blow train horns at crossings in certain towns may be more a desire to "get along." The towns would have no way to enforce the ordnance. Since MBTA wants their cooperation on things like new stations, new routes, state budget, etc., it doesn't want to act like the 800 lb gorilla all the time.
Freight railroads which operate trains at higher than municipally-posted speed limits ignore citations and point to the FRA. The ordnances are city council members' way of making noise and "looking out for you" come reelection time. The whole thing is pretty stupid.
The first time I encountered this, it was in Ft. Lauderdale, Fl. In some areas, there are signs that state "Trains do not blow whistles between 10 PM and 6 AM" Both AMTRAK & CSX abide by this but I couldn't believe that local gov't could supercede federal regulations. I've never seen a satisfactory explanation of this.
Here is a set of articles from the Federal Railroad Administration with more on whistles than we've every wanted to know!
"But any town that doesn't want the noise, just has to pass the local ordinance."
Fargo North Dakota wants to silence the horns.... but first they must upgrade the crossings, either four quadrant gates, or concrete barriers to prevent drive arounds, also eliminating (closing the street) some of the smaller crossings.
Elias
The relatively new HBLR has several street grade-crossings, including two with full signal and gate assemblies on the West End branch just west of the split. The light-rail cars do NOT sound their horns at any crossings due to well publicized complaints from the Jersey City residents along the ROW- at least the wealthy ones moving into the new housing by the waterfront.
There are signs on the two gated crossings with a message along the lines of "CAUTION: Light Rail Cars are Prohibited to Sound Horns at Crossings". Interestingly, this is in an older, semi-industrial section of town where existing housing stock is very old and the neighborhood looks considerably poorer.
"I know is that the sound must be loud enough to be heard a mile away in the least favorable weather condition"
I know that out here on the prairies of North Dakota I can hear the Locomotive horns ten miles away. (I *know* where the grade crossings are and how many need to be crossed before the train gets here). I can even hear the Locomotive prime movers growling six miles away. Naturally I am not driving in a car when I can hear these.
Elias
Believe it or not having run the Canarise line often enough when they had that crossing I can't remember a rule or general order. I do remember there was a stop sign some distance before the crosing. I hated having to make that stop since it was such a nice downgrade piece of track into East 105. Most of the guys just blew [IIRC there was a whistle board] two blasts going by...I blew the standard RR whistle signal which wasn't in any of our rule books.[NYCTA]
Federal law and railroad rules require the blowing of the horn from a whistle sign [usually 1/4 mile from the crossing] or 1/4 mile from the crossing until the first unit occupies the crossing. Likewise the headlight must be on BRIGHT and the bell must be rung. Used to be a lot of BN engineers didn't ring th bell but I'd guess they've been pushed to do so now. Some locomotives have a device that starts the bell ringing when you blow the horn. Needless to say when we were running on slow track we adjusted our whistling distance to start at a more logical place so we didn't blow and blow, but we were advised "if the FRA were around" to comply with the 1/4 mile rule to the letter. [keep my feelings on gov't people to myself]
Add that the rule only applies to PUBLIC crossings. These would be posted with the W sign in advance; Private or "farm" crossings were not posted so blowing the horn wasn't required unless there were an imminent danger. I'll qualify this by saying perhaps some localities could require horn blowing there too..or states..in the case of Montana Rail Link I've read they have the crews blowing for every crossing now.
My feelings would be for areas that outlaw horn blowing at crossings that whatever jurisdiction passed the ordinance would thereby assume responsibility for accidents. Or should have to. If a motorist and their attorney can prove an engineer/motorman didn't comply with the whistle rule the railroad, and anymore the engineer, are both liable
Believe me, there were times we got tired of hearing the damn thing ourselves, especially on units that had the horn mounted on the cab roof.[MRL thankfully moved most of them back]
I was wondering when someone would take up the E105 issue. From my first memory to the closing of the crossing, the rule was a full stop before the crossing, then two short blasts on the whistle. I always remember this because it varied from standard RR practice.
Another oddity of the E105 crossing was that it that the gates were manually operated until the end. Closing that crossing eliminated at least four jobs. It's also worth noting that the street crossing was closed (by blocking off the street) some time before the pedestrian crossing was eliminated by bridging the track. So the gatekeeper kept his job a while longer. I have no recollection of long this interim period was. Anybody know?
It's interesting how we hold railroads and highways to such different standards. Coul imagine if big rigs had to blow their horns every time they approached a street crossing, even if it had a green light? Of course, you have to consider that people are acculturated to listen for the train horn. If that were suddenly eliminated, I believe grade crossing accidents, even at protected crossings, would rise dramatically.
My feelings are that with strong enough movable barricades the whole noise making mess at rail/road crossings could be eliminated. But that's another story in itself.
Having to stop for the E 105 crossing on the Canarsie line always disturbed me and I wondered why if much heavier freight trains were so much of a sure shot for causing death why a subway train had to stop. I just thought maybe because New York City is a lawsuit paradise but then they didn't stop on Staten Island. Before we get into railroad vs.mass transit rail the difference is only in legal aspects. Staten Island /BMT was about as close as you could get to being the same creature.
Wonder if they had to stop in the days of wood cars? OTOH rail/road crossings were very common in the early days of the Brooklyn els.
An interesting operating practice in Russia is that trains blow their horns as they pass each other and also as they pass stations. This is partly due to the fact that pedestriaan access is rarely restricted, so people could be crossing the tracks anywhere. Also, you can tell what kind of train is coming by the sound of the horn: commuter trains have high pitched horns, while freight locomotives have very low pitched ones. Also, a random interesting fact is that Russia has the world's largest electric railway network.
LIRR Book of Rules - (Rule 14L - Long Long Short Long) Approaching public crossings at grade. To be prolonged until crossing is reached; Approaching locations where Roadway workers are at work on or near the tracks, bridges or other structures.; Approaching passenger stations on tracks next to platforms where trains are not scheduled to stop (except Jamaica). to be sounded until passenger ststion is reached.
That is the LIRR rule and FRA rule.
That specific pattern is required by rule at all grade crossings. On the Long Island RR and CSX it's rule 14L. On Conrail it's covered under rule 15L.
In areas where several crossings were placed close together, it was common practice for the engineers just to sound the proper signal twice or even sound a series of short blasts. This included areas like Farmingdale and Mineola where each had 4 X-ings very close together. Recently, a bulletin was issued by the LIRR mandating that the correct signal be sounded at each crossing.
Parhaps I'm out of the loop (certainly when compared to most participants in this conference) but when did the MTA actually make an order for the new R143 cars on the IND/BMT line? I looked on the IND/BMT rolling stock page here, and saw pictures of R143s on order and after delivery: http://www.nycsubway.org/cars/r143.html I'm just suprised this wasn't in the news, after all the ink the R142s recieved, though maybe it was just in case the R143s also have to go through a 2 year gestation period before they can reliably be brought to a stop. If anyone knows how many of these new cars are on order and which trains they are replacing (R32s, I assume) please share the wealth.
-Brian
Not the R32s. They will replace (IIRC) the R38, R40/R40M, and R42.
>>Not the R32s. They will replace (IIRC) the R38, R40/R40M, and R42.
Not exactly. The B-division is currently experiencing a car shortage. The R-143s are additions to the fleet, not replacements. In another two or three years, the R-160 order will replace the R-38 through R-44 car classes. The R-32s will go out for another GOH around then, and remain in service for another 75,000 years.
Dan
The 212 R-143s will replace nothing. They were ordered about two years ago (I know I have the date around here somewhere...{g}).
The R-160s (the follow-on order of 660 cars, for which proposals are being evaluated now, which means it might be something other than 660 cars when the dust settles) will (and this is now official, though subject to change) replace equipment in this hierarchy: slant R-40, Coney Island-overhauled R-42, R-38.
David
Purchase of the first 100 cars was approved by the MTA Board in December 1998; an option for 112 cars went through a month later.
David
The R-143 is a delayed replacement for the R-30. The MTA tossed them a tad too early, and as a result the MTA can no longer walk (V train) and chew gum (G train) at the same time.
Oops has been brought to you by erasers. Don't make a mistake without one.
I've seen the R110Bs in service about 6 months ago and haven't seen them since. The R110As haven't been in service in about 4 years. What's up with that????? If the MTA runs the 110Bs again, will they go back to the A or stay on the C???? And if the 110As run again, which line will they go to since the 142s are on the 2 line now?????
how many r110A cars are there in all? 40?
Ten - one trainset.
>>If the MTA runs the 110Bs again, will they go back to the A or stay on the C????<<
Reportedly, to the A
>>And if the 110As run again, which line will they go to since the 142s are on the 2 line now?????<<
I don't think they will run again.
How fast do the PCCs go on the Mattapan high speed line? Its only about two miles long.
They go at trolley speed, i.e. they don't craw along because there are many open stretches. The cars have also been recently overhauled. So, they do about as well as the LRVs on the Green Line. They are not quite as fast as the Newark City Subway PCCs, but its a pleasent ride just the same.
Mr t__:^)
". So, they do about as well as the LRVs on the Green Line. "
No, They don't the LRVs on the green line get up to 40mph the highest speed I've seen on mattapan is 26.
". So, they do about as well as the LRVs on the Green Line. "
No, They don't the LRVs on the green line get up to 40mph the highest speed I've seen on mattapan is 26.
I seem to recall a top speed of 31 MPH on my last trip to Boston. There are 30 mph speed limit signs posted, that would be pretty hard to exceed by more than a few MPH if even the operators wanted to.
It is high speed compared to a bus route though since it has the Private Right of way.
As for the Green Line, where do the cars get up to 40? I took a ride out to Riverside and back on the Type 7s and was speedometer watching. The fastest reading I saw was 35 or 37 as I remember.
I remember hazily that the riverside line used to be faster, like over 50mph...
Current generation cars (Type 7s and Boeings) will reach about 45 mph on the Riverside branch. I've seen them do up to 40 in the subway, but that's over the speed limit (usually 25-35).
I lived in Allston from '88 to '99, and I thought that before that rash of accidents around 90-91, the Boeings would get up to almost 50.
They slowed the whole system down, as I remember, after their safety practices were revieweb by a federal committee of some kind.
I remember that cars approaching a Y/Y signal used to enter the station without stopping (or even slowing it seemed), and the red automatics used to be permissive.
That rear-ender at Copley slowed the whole system down.
Correct me on the details.....
Dave
You got it Dave! Timers in many spots, and now yellow-over-yellow is shown at stations where cars are berthed. A full stop is required before pulling in behind another car or train.
The book Subways of the World is in stock again at the Trolley Museum of New York Store. The secure shopping cart (the feature that keeps track of your orders and accepts your credit card) is also working again.
We apologize to those who tried to order from our web store over the past several weeks. The web store is now fully functional again.
The neighborhood maps are, overall, remarkably accurate. That's why I was somewhat surprised, while standing in the 81st Street station on the B/C yesterday, to find that the map claimed I was at the 79th Street station.
I like those neighborhood maps, but keeping them up to date could become very expensive for the taxpayer or rider. Neighborhood maps were discussed at a recent meeting of the New York City Transit Riders Council. Apparently, the MTA rather than the TA introduced them and the framed information centers in which some of them hang. (I could be wrong about anything in this message, as I may have misunderstood the discussion.) Many of the Manhattan maps exist in digital storage. The others are what you see, and any update will have to be done the hard way. As bus stops, bus routes, schools, churches, movie theatres, and stores on those maps change their names or locations often, I see an enormous cost in any attempt to maintain accuracy. Maybe the 79th Street map was installed at 81st Street because it covered the same territory!
I meant that the 81st Station on the B/C was given the wrong name.
If those maps were widely sold for $2 apiece, they might come close to covering their costs.
I just heard that a car from the #7 line will be on display this summer at the Smithsonian Folklife Festival. No doubt that car will be one a R-33WF.
Wayne
Where on the Mall is this festival? I have heard of it but never bothered going.
On the big mall between 7thst. and 14th. st. ya cant'nt miss it, the biggest show in town.
"On the big mall between 7thst. and 14th. st. ya cant'nt miss it, the biggest show in town."
What date does this take place ?
Bill "Newkirk"
June 27 - July 1, and July 4 - 8 at the National Mall.
--Mark
Now which Flushing car will go to DC ?
I suggest #9306 currently on display at the Transit Museum.
WHY ?
It's in original paint, NO RUST, windows aren't scratched. Imagine this car on display in the blazing sunlight ! That's if it will be on display outdoors. A Flushing car that has 13 years of service is better than one with 38 years of service on it.
Anyone agree or disagree with me ?
Bil "Newkirk"
Good idea, Bill, but, next to impossible to get the car out. Look at the way the car is "buried" at the transit museum (that's how they got it in the 1st place)
Peace,
ANDEE
I knew it was on the mall. I just never had a reason to go in the past...
Thanks.
http://www.si.edu/festival/nyc.htm
For us sub-fans that were raised in New York, the R-33 will be a sight to see.
Hey Smithsonian! Wana add a R-33 to the collection. Here's your chance.
BTW, the link to the fest is above. Leave the stockbroker in NY and bring more food, like an egg cream.
Southern Division BMT
Phil Hom
Yeah - I was sort of thinking the same thing. As much as I like WMATA's MetroRail I sorely miss the NYCTA's subway - although I definitely don't miss this new not-so-Rapid Transit of NYCTA subway trains
Wayne
Be fun to plop it down on the Metro and run it. Wonder if it would fit ?
No it Won't. The WMATA's tunnels are too small.
Our cars are 75' x 10'. An IRT car is 51' x 8'10". How does that make our tunnels too small?
I was wondering about that.
The car we are getting was most recently on the 5 line. Once the festival is over, it sounds like this car is being retired.
The car size can be more easily expressed by using the British term "Loading Gauge" to indicate overall size. WMATA has the tightest loading gauge of any US subway system. An IRT car is just too big to fit.
When Metro was being built, the diesels used by the contractors had to have their cabs cut down so severely that the engineer was forced to sit on the cab floor to run the locomotive. WMATA's work diesels are similarly smaller than a standard railroad diesel.
If you put a Metro car and an IRT car end-to-end you will discover that the IRT car is over almost a foot taller than the Metro car.
The important thing is that the redbird car won't be in New York. It's a good start.
:-) Andrew
Well yesterday's trip was an amazing sucess. Here's what went down:
I arrived at the Hamelton NJ station to catch the 8:21 NJT train to Newark. I would rate the Hamelton NJ station as one of the best commuter RR stations in the country. 1/2 mile from a major freeway, bus hub, lots of parking, the parking lot is at the same level as the platform, wonderful landscaping, the whole complex is a sculpture garden, about 8 TVM's, enclosed waiting area w/ bathrooms, a warning system for approaching hi-speed trains on the local tracks and a glass enclosed crossover that gived you an amazing view of the NEC.
I saw about 3 Amtrak trains (from trackside and the crossover) while I was waiting and I also found three pennies. Well I usually use pennies I find as little frizbes so I began to wing them accross the tracks. Well on my second shot the penny flew up and hit the overhead catenary with a clang! I had a feeling I would be in for some really good luck that day.
I got to Newark no problem and changed to a WTC bount PATH train planing to meet Pigs at the WTC E station. Well I got to the WTC E station and pigs wasn't there so I gave him a call on his cell and he was still on the Q headed to Manhattan. We then changed our meeting to the lower level of the 4th Ave station. We met ok and crossed over to catch a S/B Q back to coney island. While waiting O found the platform level interlocking tower w/ the windows I could look in and we spend about 10 minutes observing the action. WHY DIDN'T ANYBODY TELL ME ABOUT THAT!
We took the Q/D to Stillwell (changing at the Heyapul station) where we consumed some Nathan's Hotdogs. We then caught a N/B N (SLANT 40!) to Atlantic where we took the Panama Canal to check out the LIRR Flatbush Terminal and BROOK tower. After a bathroom break we caught a 2 all the way up to E180th.
While on the two this little kid came up to the RFW. His mom noticed my folder of NYCS track maps and asked where I got them pointing out that her son LOVED the subways and had made her wait to catch a train "with the window in front" (the kid was about 6 and could barely see out the window). I then informed her about nycsubway.org and she said that they would most definitly check it out. I'll bet that kid's ruined for life :)
Ok, we got to E180 and waited for a 5 to go to Dyre. We rode a 5 out and back and then got off again at E180 to wait for an R142. However none came so we got on a really ghetto looking 5 train Redbiod with mucho rust and peeling paint. We rode that to GCT where we saw a 6 Redbird (also very rare) and tranfsered downstairs and managed to catch an Express 7. It was pretty jammed and we had to fight our way to the front, but it cleared out and the rest of the ride was wholy enjoyable. From Flushing we took the Q44 bus to Jamacia, eat at McDonnalds and went out onto the LIRR platform where I took some pics.
Jamacia at rush hour is simply amazing! At one time I saw 8 train all moving through HALL interlocking. I got pics of MU's, DE's, DM's and HALL and JAY. From there we hopped a J to E. NY Jct. and then caught an A to Rockaway Park.
Now remember, the goal of this trip is to get to JFK by 7 PM meet my friend and then catch the 9:10 NJT train at Penn Station, but the Rockaway park bit made us a little late and after catching the shuttle bus we got to terminal 8 at 7:26. Well my friend had just clearned customs w/ 2 80 pound suitcases and by the time we caught the next shuttle bus and got back to Howard beach it was 8:12. There was no way I thought I would catch that train at Penn and to make matters worse we cauht an R44 at HB. Anyway, pigs leaves the story at Utica Ave and my friend and I continue on to Penn Station. Well we get down to the NJT level and we see that it's 9:04 and our planned train is boarding! Well we did some scrambling and we made it! We took the NJT to Trenton where I left my UK friend to catch the Twilight Shoreliner to Boston due in at 12:03. I proceeded onto Philly via SEPTA taking one of the 80 pound suitcases as I will meet up w/ my fiend again after he finds an appartment in Boston. I had to roll the suitcase 2 blocks down market St. to the 8th and Market PATCO station making ample use of the handicapped facilities. A train came in about 5 minutes and even though I lost my ticket and had to jump the exit turnstyle I would still say it was a good trip. I got home at 12:16 having left some 17 hours before.
Why'd you make your poor friend go to Boston from NYC via Trenton? Seems unusally cruel.
My friend is British trainspotter and fellow SubTalker Lexcie. He didn't want to spend 3 hours waiting in Penn Station. He decided on going w/ me to Trenton in order to A) talk w/ me, B) ride NJT (Comet V, real nice) and C) kill time. Also I think that Trenton is a nicer place to hang than Penn Station. He is currently writing some papers about commuter rail and vertical integration and is going to get a graduate degree in Transportation at MIT.
You know, it never occurred to me that the Trenton station is nicer than Penn, but now that I think about it...
Cool. I work at MIT full-time... and we have a great transportation program. I look forward to meeting Lexcie.
Glad you got to see LIRR - Jamaica at rush hour. It's an incredibly complex operation, and becomes more so the more you understand about the railroad. At one time, I believe it had more trains per day than any other station in the U.S., although Penn Station (NYC) may now be bigger with the growth in NJT and Amtrak Empire Service.
CG
yesterday i had to go New York City Technical college to take a test. I rode with my friend on the 1009 F from 179 to Coney island, 5904. Then I got on the D 2518 goin uptown and the Bx. Anyway then I got on the Franklin shuttle S 2918 to Franklin. From there took 3553 R32 C to Jay street. Then After the test at the College, I took the Tailcar of a Lefferts bound A 5287 to Bway ENY and got on 4519 a R40M on the J. What I liked best was the R44's on the A. After all, they are supposed to disappear when the R160 comes.
E to JAMAICA CENTER
SUBTALK NEWS
BACK TO YOU IN THE STUDIO.
NOW FOR ME ITS OFF TO MY HIGH SCHOOL PROM. WISH ME LUCK
yesterday i had to go New York City Technical college to take a test. I rode with my friend on the 1009 F from 179 to Coney island, 5904. Then I got on the D 2518 goin uptown and the Bx. Anyway then I got on the Franklin shuttle S 2918 to Franklin. From there took 3553 R32 C to Jay street. Then After the test at the College, I took the Tailcar of a Lefferts bound A 5287 to Bway ENY and got on 4519 a R40M on the J. What I liked best was the R44's on the A. After all, they are supposed to disappear when the R160 comes.
E to JAMAICA CENTER
SUBTALK NEWS
BACK TO YOU IN THE STUDIO.
NOW FOR ME ITS OFF TO MY HIGH SCHOOL PROM. WISH ME LUCK
Enjoy your prom! Boy that was many years ago for me. It's nice to see how many young railfans there are around your age. It's a passsion I developed at a very young age, say around 9 or 10 years old. It started with busses , then trolleys and subways. Keep up your posts to Sub-Talk, they are really good!
Chuck Greene
The R-160 is supposed to replace the R-44 only according to SubTalkers and whomever they're hearing it from "on the road." Remember: Train Operators, Conductors, Tower Operators, etc. don't decide what stays and what goes. Those decisions are made by MANAGEMENT in the Department of Subways and the Department of Capital Program Management in conjunction with senior NYCT management and the MTA.
David
Train Dude (who is not A T/O, CR or Tower operator, etc.) has confirmed that the R-160A option has been exercized. These cars are supposedly replacing the R-44. However, I'm a little skeptical for a few reasons:
1. The R-160 contract only replaces 607 of the R-32GE, R-38, R-40/40S, and R-42. Thus, you are left with a few cars from these classes. Why would they replace the whole R-44 fleet when some R-42's might still be operating?
2. At no point has there been any official mention that the R-44 would be replaced. There has been mention of the R-160A, but not of R-44 replacement.
It is quite possible that there are some rebuilt R-38's, R-40's, and R-42's that are in better shape than the R-44's. After all, the R-142's on the IRT are replacing Redbirds in order of worst condition, not according to the actual contract class.
Everyone has seen instances where two people have identical automobiles, or televisions, or toasters, and one outlives the other by a long stretch of time. This principle probably applies to subway rolling stock as well.
As for the R-44---it is generally acknowledged that they are among the most trouble-prone, poorly built subway cars in the MTA roster. Although I'm not privy to ANY information (I'm merely speculating) I wouldn't be surprised if a decision was made to scrap the R-44's before their older cousins.
>>It is quite possible that there are some rebuilt R-38's, R-40's, and R-42's that are in better shape than the R-44's.<<
Maybe a few. But there certainly aren't any better than the whole R-44 fleet.
>>Everyone has seen instances where two people have identical automobiles, or televisions, or toasters, and one outlives the other by a long stretch of time. This principle probably applies to subway rolling stock as well.<<
That's a bit different though. That deals with the following variables:
1. Built defective
2. How was the said object maintained? Regularly? Poorly?
3. How often were the said objects in use?
For instance, If I have a car, and you have the exact same car, all these play in. You car might have defective brakes and you might just decide to sell it. Or, you might run your car 100,000 miles in 10 months, while I run mine 50,000. You might Change your oil more often.
Now then:
1. If a car is defective, it is usually repaired.
2. The TA's maintenence program really limits this catagorie.
3. This might be the the catagorie with the most weight.
So then, you can't compare rolling stock to things like automobiles.
>>As for the R-44---it is generally acknowledged that they are among the most trouble-prone, poorly built subway cars in the MTA roster.<<
Who generally acknowledges this? Personally, I think the R-40S cars are real crap. I've never seen a worse door packet. Literally, What other car type has doors that randomly refuse to close? The R-44 had problems, but now they are operating just fine. And, they do not seem to be in bad condition, they are certainly in better condition than the R-40's.
>>Although I'm not privy to ANY information (I'm merely speculating) I wouldn't be surprised if a decision was made to scrap the R-44's before their older cousins.<<
I'd be surprised. They're quieter than the R-38's and are still in better condition than the R-40 series. How anyone here can say that they are doing worse than the 40's is beyond me.
"Who generally acknowledges this? Personally, I think the R-40S cars are real crap. I've never seen a worse door packet. Literally, What other car type has doors that randomly refuse to close? The R-44 had problems, but now they are operating just fine. And, they do not seem to be in bad condition, they are certainly in better condition than the R-40's."
If you go by the doors, the 32s and 46s would go first
The 44s have more stress on their frame due to there weight, the 40's frames most likely are in better shape(just guessing)
I would not be surprized if they went either way
M-1s are the best
I know who Train Dude is, and yes, he is in a position to know such things. I don't, however, recall him saying such things. Perhaps he will see this thread and respond.
Incidentally, it's rather difficult to exercise an option that may or may not exist to a contract that has not yet been signed.
David
>>Incidentally, it's rather difficult to exercise an option that may or may not exist to a contract that has not yet been signed.<<
What are you talking about: "may not exist?!?" it has already been confirmed!
Second, Maybe T Dude will see the thread. Either way, He did post on this awhile ago.
By whom has this alleged option been confirmed? If it's by Train Dude, then, again, I don't recall him saying that. I hope he'll respond.
My source was present at a NYCT internal meeting last Thursday at which the R-160 procurement was discussed. No mention of an option was made, and the replacement program was outlined exactly as I outlined it a few postings ago: slant R-40 (approximately 296 cars), followed by Coney Island-overhauled R-42 (110 cars), followed by R-38 (196 cars). Again, this is all subject to change, but as of less than a week ago, this was OFFICIAL.
David
I had originally heard that the R-160 purchase would include 660 original and 330 option cars. As you correctly point out, the option could not have been exercised as yet since the contract has not been signed. As of 6/6/01, Senior managers in the division of Car Equipment were meeting to discuss the specifications for the cars as they will be presented in the contract. No bids have been solicited as yet and none have been received.
As for which cars will be scrapped first - it's all speculation. Considering the corrosion on the R-44s and the roofs on the R-38s - those fleets would be the first to go IF it were my decision.
Thanks for the update.
The solicitation was being advertised a few weeks ago on the MTA website. Perhaps the Division of Car Equipment withdrew the package for some reason, although I understand that NYCT would like to get these cars under contract at the earliest opportunity.
David
Again, I was told that there was a meeting about R-160 Specifications, yesterday, at Tiffany shop. Prospective bidders may have been in attendance.
I checked into this matter further.
Apparently, the "solicitation" I saw on the MTA website was more along the lines of a Request for Expressions of Interest, rather than a Request for Proposals. They're not quite the same. Train Dude is correct; proposals have not yet been solicited for this contract.
David
I couldn't think of the term but that's exactly what I had heard. Those who had expressed an'interest' were reportedly at he meeting I heard about.
>>Considering the corrosion on the R-44s and the roofs on the R-38s - those fleets would be the first to go IF it were my decision.<<
What corrosion? I've never seen any, but I only see the carbodies.
I'd make the Coney Island R-42 rebuilds go (they really suck) and the R-40's and R-38's.
Odd that the 2 car classes you mentioned are BOTH Consigned to the A line.
The corrosion IS on the carbody of the R-44s. Look at the belly-band area usually near the bonnets and especially under the cab window.
Looks like the subway car of the future was a bust after all. There's no way you can compare a subway car built 30 years ago to a car that hasnt even been designed yet! This is silly.
I too have heard the rumor about the R-44s retirement on SubTalk. I'm sure it is possible that the T/A is considering replacing those cars sometime in the future but I'm sure they haven't made a definite decision as of the present time.
BMTJeff
Forgive my typos, but I'm operating on 2 hours of sleep and too much road coffee.
At 4:15am this morning, former Minneapolis/Shaker Hts./Buffalo PCC #70 arrived on the Beard St. pier in Brooklyn. At daybreak, she was unloaded onto the track leading to the car shops. The car is one of 12 purchased by the Brooklyn Historic Railway for continued service from Red Hook towards downtown and the Brooklyn Bridge Park complex.
For the number hungry, car #70 was built in 1947 by St. Louis Car Co. originally TCRT 359 until 1953. Converted to MU at the TCRT shops and renumbered 70. She and 19 sisters provided service on the Shaker rapid lines until 1985. She and 11 others (non-MU 51-55, MU 60,61,62,67,68,and 69) were sold to the Niagra Frontier Transit Authority in 1990. The BHRA purchased them earlier this year. These 12 are sisters to the fleet still operating until August in Newark.
I'm going to bed now.
Amtrak Wants to Mortgage Penn Station
What happens when Amtrak defaults? Are you listening, Donald Trump?
Next: Looking for Loan Sharks on 7th Avenue.
It is long past time for the US to make the choice. Are we a civilized, modern nation with an adequate infrastructure or are we some lame dump where you either drive(wabenzi) or walk? Amtrak has been treated as an annoyance and deliberately m,alnourished for thirty years. While I could also rant at length about imperfections in Atk service (notably on a recent trip to Portland Spkane and Eugene) I for one want my tax money spent for a real world class passenger train system. For the mere cost of several useless 'B-2's' we could turn Atk into a decent FUNCTIONAL system. For several billions more we could move toward the ultimate goal. Pretending that Americans don't deserve train service isunrealistic, and further pretending that passenger trains can be profitable flies in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary worldwide.
I'm declaring a mini field trip, place your reservations. I did, if any of you wanna meet up with me, I'll either be wearing a dark blue shirt with a road sign as a DJ with turntables or a grayish shirt with grafitti on it. Email me if you wanna organize something...
According to http://www.bitnik.com/RMLI/hot.htm,
"coach, number 2966, has been slated for preservation by the New York Transit Museum."
Can anyone confirm its whereabouts ?
I'm planning to make a day trip up to visit the Transit Museum once and for all. What should I definitely see???? What should I avoid???
Any suggestions???
You should see everything, because the museum isn't all that big. There'll be plenty of time to walk through all the old cars and the exhibits.
Dan
I second the suggestion ...
- You make a left at the Token Booth, where you buy your ticket.
- Walk down the exhibit hallway
- on main floor are models of trolleys, old maps, a video room, buses for the kids to sit in, turnstiles from various periods, etc.
- on the track level there are lots of cars to walk thru, a tower & other items on display on the platform.
- the gift shop has some interesting items too
Enjoy, Mr t__:^)
Don't forget to stop by the gift shop and get some postcards. There are very cool views of NY which you don't get on the typical tourist post cards - like R-62's on the Queens Blvd viaduct set against the Queensborough Bridge, or a shot of the great white fleet rolling down the viaduct from years ago, or station artwork.
If you're talking about the shot of the # 7 with the city skyline in the background, its a favorite of mine. I bought it up at Shoreline in CT. I think the shot was taken from the roof of an Apartment House on 39th Place and Queens Blvd. I grew up on the other side of the "el" and 4 blocks east.
It brought back memories for me. I was able to also pick-out the old Breyer's Ice Cream Factory and the Swingline Staple Factory.
SUBTALK LIVE THIS SATURDAY
June 10, 2001
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Three things:
1)At around 8:00 this evening, a diesel train was pulling R142 cars #6586-6590 at Grand Central on the local track. A half hour later, at Third Avenue/149th Street, I saw it again pulling through, this time with the bells ringing. I wonder what happened to #6501-6570?
2)The R142 train with car #s 6321-6325 and 6346-6350 is back in service.
3) #6571-6580 passed by on the downtown track at 3 Av/149th St., making simulated stops at around 8:30pm. It came directly behind 6321-25 and 6346-50. Then, after that, an R26/28/29 #5 train, followed by another R142. I forgot the numbers.
That's all for now. Until next time...
CWalNYC
R142_6301-6310
Hey, you stole my thunder (just kidding)! But seriously, I too saw 6586-90 from my apartment window, and the sky hadn't gotten completely dark yet. The train was passing through Track M, Jackson Av at 9PM.
6576-6585 were out making simulated stops tonight. I wonder if they're in next for revenue service?
As for your question to what happened with 6501-6570, I'm uncertain about this other than to say that the higher numbered cars were ready to be shipped from the factory, while the lower of the fleet is still being prepared at this time.
-Stef
One idear of to why the higher nomber are coming in first, is that they can't got to the lower numbers in the back of the lot they were sitting as the TA tryed to fixthe bugs out of them. They built all the car and stocked them to close to get the older one out.
This is just an Idear of what might be cousing the higher # to come in before the lower #.
Robert
Hey, does any body have the original plans for the service changes involing said new routes? I've heard on this board several diferent stories about what the new routes would be. Can some one clear this up fpr me ,please. thank you.
Eric B. posted it yesterday.
David
Thank you for the response,people,but perhaps i didnt make my post completely understood.What I was refering to was the the original plans for the new routes from the 1960's,not current wise. Thank you for all the input.
I understood the question. Eric B. posted the 1960s proposals last week.
David
New Routes-as far as i know:
D-205th Street Norwood to 34th St-6th Avenue
B-Bedford Park Blvd, bronx or 145th St to 34th St-6th Av
Q-EXPRESS-Brighton Beach to 57th St-7th Ave
Q-LOCAL-Coney Island to 57th St-7th Avenue
W-Ditmars Blvd-Astoria to Coney Island-West End
So if you add the N as an express, and the R as a local, you essentially have the Broadway line in pre-Chrystie condition. The more things change.....
Just change the W to the T, and you do have pre-Chrystie Broadway BMT service.
And you'd have to have the Brighton local operate thru the tunnel, unlike the upcoming service plan.
Eastbound local track, presumably for the R. If they futz with the express track there'll be hell to pay (I already see a GT 25 sign up...).
MTA, slowing your way.
Why not just lower the speed limit to 5 mph?
Thoses idiots dont want to upgrade the signal system. They think that slowing down trains is the answer to everthing.
Well, it's the answer to safety concerns. Look, the slower trains move, the more time the T/O has to react to conditions ahead. If trains are moving with zero velocity, response time is infinite for all stationary objects.
I'm very afraid that we're going to get here--soon.
Dan
Slowing down is the answer to everything. At this rate, trains will never move and response times for T/Os will be infinite.
The only thing the MTA can do quickly is slowing things down.
Dan
Leisurely transit is here to stay, it will never die, etc.
Oooohhhhhhhhhhhh nooooooooooooooooo.
Maybe the TA will redesign the uniforms ... LEISURE SUITS! :)
Oh noo! Those dreaded wheel detectors spread their misery. :-(
I did not know that one was a the CityHall Loop for the 6 line. I rode the 6 around the loop yesterday. It starts when the train enter the station.
Robert
Which reminds me. I was able to ride the loop on Memorial Day. The T/O initially told me to leave the train; I responded that I wanted to remain on, and that the loop track was returned to Main Line status per Bulletin (as reported here on SubTalk by one of our NYCT friends). He said, "Hmph! They change things every week around here. Sure, stay on."
The police booth is abandoned. Maybe Rudy's problems in the Mansion have him less focused on City Hall?
What the Bulletin Number I will look it up one day and see what it said.
Robert
thats too hard. Just go to last car and stay on despite announcements, get on at las car while the people are leaving
It's mainline track again? Yahoo! I'll ride it next week. Thanks for the tip!
Dan
What exactly are wheel detectors? I gather they are some method of device to slow down trains, could someone explain to me what they are and how they work?
Thanks
Bill/Piggo
There is a thread going around about Wheel Detectors!
They "detect" how long it takes for each axle to cross a given point, and determine the speed from that. The light flashes when there is no train in the detection area or if the train is moving too fast. The brake tripper goes up whenever the light is flashing regardless of wether the train is over it or not, thus if the train accelerates faster than the prescribed speed it can still be tripped even after the first car passes it.
Hate to tell you this, but the dreaded Wheel Detectors are built into the new signals that were installed in Queens Plaza station recently. Take a close look at them - even though they are covered in burlap, you can see evidence of the presence of the wheel detectors built right in. Express and local tracks have them. We owe this all to Mr. Ray, who is now a guest of the NY State Dept. of Corrections, for his causation of the accidnet at Union Square - 14th Street on the Lex. Also, a dishonorable mention to Mr. Ricky Gates, who really brought things to a real bang when he caused the accident on the Northeast Corridor line, killing the head end crew of an Amtrak Metroliner in Maryland. With notables like those guys, we should be thankful that they are few in number.
I'm surprised nothing like this was done after the Malbone St. wreck. Different era, different approach, I suppose.
Different situation - Luciano wasn't a motorman; BRT management put him behind the handles without proper training and (arguably, of course) held the primary responsibility for the incident. The "punishment" was the restructuring of the company. In the case of Union Square, Ray's blood-alcohol content alone was at fault.
Not to re-open an old thread or anything, but there were a lot
of factors in Union Square. The intoxicated motorman was the
big one, but there were secondary causes as well. Ironically,
the thing that WDs do best, which is to provide a continuous speed
control throughout the turnout, wasn't a factor in Union Sq.
Hate to tell you this, but the dreaded Wheel Detectors are built into the new signals that were installed in Queens Plaza station recently. Take a close look at them - even though they are covered in burlap, you can see evidence of the presence of the wheel detectors built right in. Express and local tracks have them. We owe this all to Mr. Ray, who is now a guest of the NY State Dept. of Corrections, for his causation of the accident at Union Square - 14th Street on the Lex. Also, a dishonorable mention to Mr. Ricky Gates, who really brought things to a real bang when he caused the accident on the Northeast Corridor line, killing the head end crew of an Amtrak Metroliner in Maryland. With notables like those guys, we should be thankful that they are few in number.
Are you sure those aren't the Ss or lunar whites for timers, or the call on? I hope you're wrong, or else I will definitely be taking the F into Manhattan from then on to avoid the whole Queens Plaza area. No WDs through 63rd!
Nope, they are not call on signals, because the signals are located about midstation. One is mounted horizontally from the ceiling at the express platform, and the ones on the local tracks are the usual trackside types. They are not the time control types either. Go and see for yourself, because they are there, albeit still wrapped in the burlap.
Hi
Does anybody know yret what happened on the 6th Ave/34th St station yesterday?
Thanks.
SeaBeach53
Police Invertigation.
Thanks..police investigation...people are just so bad these days..I was unfortunately on the downtown 4 today and it waitied for 15+ mins in limbo because of a police invesitgation..I wasn't too pleased, it was packed and noisy...next time, I'm walking to Times Sq for the beloved N...
Jonathan
SeaBeach53
Well I finally meet up with a guy with real class, a Sea Beach man. I like your handle and can use your help when I take on all those Brighton yo yo's I have to deal with daily.
In the future, it would be helpful to add an approximate time of the incident. All I can see is signal trouble around 7:30 PM
I'm very, very happy that the MTA is getting rid of its older, crappier car classes.
I had a half day of school today so I went down to the Mid-Manhattan library to do some research for Social Studies class. When I finished I walked to 42nd/6th and boarded a Q, forgetting they were terminating at 57th. As I walked to the front of the train, I noticed something: The majority of the cars were sweltering, hotter then outside the train.
Earlier that day, my redbird 6 was just as bad and several times more crowded. I shudder to think of an entire summer like this.
Dan
Try riding LI BUS. They don't believe in air conditioning at all. :-0
Really? I rode R-40 4296 on the Q yesterday and found it to be a meat locker.
Silly me...
David
Not all the cars are bad, but there are several cars (more then 50% of the two trainsets I was on) which had no functioning A/C whatsoever. Your meat locker was quite nicely contrasted by my toaster oven.
Dan
What is meant by "no functioning AC?" Were the blowers blowing hot air, or was the system off completely? If the system was off completely in more than one car, then the odds are that the HVAC (Heating/Ventilation/Air Conditioning) trainline was switched "off." That is a RULE VIOLATION, not an equipment failure.
By the way, I rode 4218 on the Q on my way home tonight. It was nicely cool in there.
David
The air conditioning in many cars, particularly the Redbirds, is much worse this summer than I remember from past summers. I have a feeling the HVAC on the Redbirds is simply not being maintained anymore, and if any other car class were to receive similar treatment, they, too, would be hot.
Now, has anyone been reprimanded by the C/R for opening the windows in a car where the a/c is clearly not functioning? That happened to me a few weeks ago. (Well, the vertical poles were cold, so something was working. I think the fans were simply not blowing.) I was told that I had to move to the next car (and give up my seat) if I wanted any sort of ventilation at all. Instead, I hopped across the platform at Grand Central onto the express, completely forgetting that locals were running express that weekend (but the 4 pulled out before the 6 anyway, and, more to the point, it was nice and cold).
I was on a downtown R142A, 7341-7350, and from what I saw, many of the windows had received "scratchitti" treatment. When do people do this? I guess this will be a good test to see how fast the TA responds to this and replaces the film around the windows. It has begun. Also of note, the train made a brake squealing sound as the train left each station and this is not normal. Anyone ride this train and experience the same thing?
Nappy
All Brakes squeal when the train leave. All it meens is that the air was not all the way out of the system. But what i felt yesterday of the T/O not knowing how to stop the train. Every time she came to a complet stop, at about 2MPH the train would juck to the stop. I got off a Brooklyn Brige Station and went into the tower to use the bathroom and I ask a TSS if that was normal. He sad that she was using to much brake, that the trains now uses the motors more at lower speed, then the air brakes come on at about 3MPH the stop the train the rest of that way. He sayed that it will take sometime for some T/O to get use to this, that sometime the train dose not fell like it is slowing down and they take more brake to over come it.
One more thing the light did flicker going into some stops. The cars were 7221-7230.
Robert
The vandals don't seem to waste any time to deface the windows on brand new subway cars. Did it over occur to them that most poeple would like to ride on scratchitti free subway cars for at least a little while before someone makes a mess of them. I guess not. I would like to see a scratchitti free subway car for a change.
BMTJeff
Yesterday while I was on the R142 going to Brooklyn Brige Station the were afrew youths spitting on the floor. Every one way looking right at them as they did is, they just keep on talking and rapping load while everyone got mad at them. This I feel is even worse scratching up the windows. I sweer if these kid knew there school work as well as they music, we would have the best nation in the world.
Robert
I don't know why NYCT bothers introducing new cars, given the amount of vandalism. Just keep rebuilding the old ones and save the money.
the old ones can take so much use and they are falling apart inside as well as outside. it would too expensive to rebuild because they are so out dated. so the most logical thing to do is buy new ones. its almost like buying a car for yourself. you had a car for years but, since it is aging, it starts to fall apart and begins to be too expensive to fix. so you buy a new one and save money.
You can't rebuild cars indefinitely. Sooner or later they will need to be replaced with new ones because the old one will simply start to fall apart from extended usage that rebuilding can't take care of.
BMTJeff
I would have to say that spitting on the floor of a subway car is disrespectful. Scratching the windows of a subway car is worse in my own opinion because you are damaging public property.
BMTJeff
These vandals live in filth and are very miserable people.
If they don't have any regards for where or how they live, how can they have any regards for others?
Does anyone know how much the asses get fined when caught 'scratchetting'? Whatever it is, it should be tripled. Imagine the money the city might rake in! hehe! (well... from their parents, that is...).
Also, what ever happened to the buzz about video cameras being installed on the subways?
Is it just me, or has enforcement of all things underground began to lax in the last 6 or so months? I've also noticed a few trains at night with many a homeless person sleeping on the seats.
...and if enforcement is indeed getting laxed, why? it's not like we've got less cops, or a huge increase in crime. or am I just completely missing something?
I say "Whip it and whip it good". :-0
"Quoted words courtesy of Devo, an 80s band"
"Token Clerks Face the Ax" is the headline of a Daily News story that states: "The TA's annual budget calls for reducing subway station staffing by 235 positions through attrition." The article was published on the occaision of the TWU staging a protest yesterday against the TA's decision to eliminate token booth clerk positions.
TA had this planned when they negotiated the last contract when "general maintenance" of the turnstiles was part of the Station Agents job. When this happens they will be subject to the same criminal element that preys on the passengers. Without the protection of the booth and access to the "panic button" muggings and fare beating will be at an all-time high. At least now if the Agent says "pay your fare" through the mike an officer on the platform can respond, let's see how many say something when they have no protection. Plus it will also eliminate the need for the collector trains (5 to 6 T/O jobs, most of the collecting personnel and accompanying supervision). I am sure there are other negative aspects to this but what does TA care as long as the bottom line shows a profit.
Thank you for your support. Just imagine-- a young female customer with a carriage is attacked in an unmanned area of the station. I can see it now-- see is collapsing onto the floor and calls 9-1-1 from a pay phone that may not work, meanwhile the miscreant attacks the kid. We need at least one full-time manned booth at every station.
I do agree that **some** part-time booths might be closable but we do need a full-time manned presence at each station.
Taking away our money does sound good- sure we could still check your card and possibly trade them in. The booth is more than sales-- we have high-tech alarm systems which also help us monitor escaaltors and elevators.
I support a compromise suggestion: have two agents per station that now has a part-time booth open for at least 16 hours: one roams the station with a two way radio and the other stays in the booth. They would switch up at an assigned time. Overnight or high-crime areas would continue to have only one agent and they stay in the booth. For stations with a part-time booth open just for AM. PM or both rush hours only they would have only one agent in the full-time booth.
One issue that is yet to be settled is our safety-- our panic button covers us near the booth but what is we are roaming the station-- do they give us a two way radio? How much will the extra radios cost-factor in batteries, maintenance, monitoring, etc.
Thank you for your support. Just imagine-- a young female customer with a carriage is attacked in an unmanned area of the station. I can see it now-- see is collapsing onto the floor and calls 9-1-1 from a pay phone that may not work, meanwhile the miscreant attacks the kid. We need at least one full-time manned booth at every station.
What about PATH?
PATH is a whole different kettle of fish. They have personnel monitoring the station via CCTV 24 hours a day with smaller, and for the most part straight platforms. And they only have to watch 13 stops. When something happens, the police are dispatched immediately. The TA has no plans to implement this at this time.
Also, the PATH does not go into certain desolate high crime areas like the subway does. Sure it serves Newark Penn Station, but there is a 24 hour police presence there, a heavy ridership, and you couldn't compare that to say East 143 St on the 6 or Freeman St on the 2/5 now could you?
PATH is a whole different kettle of fish. They have personnel monitoring the station via CCTV 24 hours a day with smaller, and for the most part straight platforms. And they only have to watch 13 stops. When something happens, the police are dispatched immediately. The TA has no plans to implement this at this time.
It's just a matter of scale. Sure, the TA would need a lot more cameras and camera-watchers ... just like it needs lots more cars, turnstiles, signals, etc. etc. It's a much bigger system than PATH, but also has more resources.
Also, the PATH does not go into certain desolate high crime areas like the subway does. Sure it serves Newark Penn Station, but there is a 24 hour police presence there, a heavy ridership, and you couldn't compare that to say East 143 St on the 6 or Freeman St on the 2/5 now could you?
All of PATH's New Jersey stops except Newark Penn probably can be desolate during off-hours, even Journal Square and Hoboken to some extent. And we're drifting off the real issue, which is the fact that the subway's station agents, locked away in their booths, are virtually useless when it comes to providing security. Plenty of security cameras and customer panic buttons would do the job much better.
Actually, the real real issue is something else entirely. The fact remains that no station agents are going to lose their jobs - I consider the newspaper's use of the term "face the ax" to be quite misleading and maybe even a little irresponsible. All of the cuts will be made through attrition. I can guarantee you that no private-sector employer would be so accommodating. If a private company ran the subways, the station agents (and probably most conductors) would be history.
TA had this planned when they negotiated the last contract when "general maintenance" of the turnstiles was part of the Station
Agents job. When this happens they will be subject to the same criminal element that preys on the passengers. Without the protection of the booth and access to the "panic button" muggings and fare beating will be at an all-time high.
Station agents won't need the "protection" of the booth when doing customer-service duty on the platforms because they won't handle money.
Wrong! I am a lunch relief and there are plenty of Emotionally disturbed persons (EDPs) out in the system. Many times I have had to find the conductor on a train and have them call for police.
I am not concernedf over losing my job- I wont. What we are concerned about is **system safety**
Thats right! there are alot of Emotionally disturbed persons out there and sometimes us Conductor have to do the reverse. Sometimes with these radios you find you and your Train Operator have dead batteries so you may need to find a Station Agent to call for help for you. There where times my radio battery was good when I left lets say 242 Street by the time I get to 168 the battery is low. Then when I get to 14 Street northbound the battary is dead.
They may not need Station Agents to sell tokens or card but you still need someone there to give out information about the subway and able to call for help if somethings happens.
Also now were are the train crews going to send a person if they get sick. Control center always trys to tell Conductors to bring a sick person to the Both or if someone is a victim of a robbery their suppose to be sent to the Both. I guess now if someone gets sick the train will be discharged and run light while the C/R waits on the platform with the sick person until help arrives.
How many subtalkers rode on the Dyre Line between the hours of Midnight and 5AM when it OPTO and no station agents on duty anywhere. How many people are going to say they felt safe? I feel crime will increase if TA gets there way. I alway find there always a group of troublemakers that hang around a both when theres no one there.
We are a team! we need t/Os, C/Rs and S/As!I have also spoken to T/Ds ,TSSs, Tw/Os, etc to get assistance.
Your statement about hanging around a booth is so true. If we see someone lurking around even an open booth we are supposed to ask them if they are waiting for someone.If they say no then we ask them to leave. If they say they are waiting for someone we ask when their person will come. Even then we sometimes ask them to move.
Just yesterday late pm I was at 168 on the C. The train was going out of service and I saw a customer trapped in the train. I shouted in a carrying voice to the train crew and starteds to flag the train on the uptown plat (I was on the downtown plat). Someone must have heard me or seen the customer. An employee ran to the customer and freed them.
Anytime I am in the system I practice the mantra taught in class.."We are the eyes and ears of the system." I have even saved NJT from problems with doors opening to no platform due to train skidding past a statiom or door problems. Once I even told the head conductor of a person riding between the front coach and the engine!
I feel the same way sometimes when there is a problem. 2 Mouths ago I was working South Ferry. Its assigned as a platform job but your really an ATD. There was a track fire at Chambers street uptown. A train was in the station and ofcause I was ordered to hold the train. So I made a PA announcement and I also called up the station agents at South Ferry, Rector, to advise them of the problem. This way they can handle the people when they start seeing that no trains where running. I was informing them on how RTO was handling everything. We handled it good at south ferry. The Station Agent closed the station and the crew dicharged and everyone walked over to the N.R Lines. Then in 10 Minutes I informed everyone we were on the move at Chambers and everything went back to normal. This is a good example of what can happen when everyone works together. Now my supervisor at Chambers street had no time to give me orders he just said do whatever you have to do and hung up. So we did just that. Also there where cops also helping us. Now without the help of the station Agent people would have still been coming down the stairs. I gave her alot of credit because she was working real good with the problem at hand.
That's something I don't get. Back in the "old days", the radios
clipped into the brackets in the cab and got their power from
the trainline B+. These HTs are great....you can be in touch
wherever you are, down on the roadbed, in the toilet, etc., but
one thing I don't understand: why weren't the radios designed so
that they could be "docked" in a radio bracket in the cab where
they could stay on charge?
>>> I don't understand: why weren't the radios designed so that they could be "docked" in a radio bracket in the cab where they could stay on charge? <<<
Unfortunately rechargeable batteries when they do fail, fail very quickly. I assume that the present radios are recharged when not in use, and when they are checked out at the start of a run they indicate that the battery has a full charge. The only practical solution if the batteries are mission critical is to install new batteries on a schedule before the expected end of life. An organization that is pinching pennies will not do this, and therefore the people in the field will suffer failures.
Tom
The problem with the portable batteries is that a good chunk of them will not be able to hold either a full charge, or even half a charge.
Often, a T/O or C/R will get a new battery that the charger says is "ready", only to have it die 5 to 10 minutes later.
>>> Often, a T/O or C/R will get a new battery that the charger says is "ready", only to have it die 5 to 10 minutes later. <<<
This is exactly the problem that I pointed out in my previous post. Rechargeable batteries do not last forever. They have a limited number of charging cycles, and once past that number, they will exhibit the symptoms you described.
Tom
I'm going to guess that the TA has gone with the usual Motorola radios with the snap-bottom NiCd batteries - the issue being the nature of NiCd's in general ... they develop "memory" if they're repeatedly recharged from the same level. If a battery is used only part way REGULARLY and hits the charger, the chemicals tend to get used to a shallow charge/discharge cycle and won't take a full charge.
And if the TA cheaped out on the charger packs, then they'll just do a "trickle charge/fast charge" which won't help the sitch. To overcome "memory" with these things, the batteries need to get a random use and recharge pattern along with routine DEEP discharge until they won't put out volts no more to erase the effect.
The more sophisticated chargers will do a "cycling" and take the batteries to a deep discharge every now and then. But if the routine is drop the battery in the charger and let them go without randomizing the cycling of them, they don't last very long.
It WOULD make more sense to have a charging connector in the cab like the old days and use the radios on inboard battery ONLY when you're not IN the cab ... but then who cares what I think? :)
The TA has gone with new Bendix-King radios which have replaced the old Motorola portables (Motorola spares are still used in the event that a crew member does not have a radio assigned to him). The new radios still use NiCd batteries.
There's your culprit then - it's the battery technology that falls victim to the memory effect. Use a cheapie charger that just applies charge without a "battery balancing" function and deep discharge and you'll get that "memory effect" pretty quickly.
Reason I know this as well as I do is I used to work in TELEVISION and them NiCds are used for the cameras, recorders and the headlight. It's a VERY expensive proposition (resulting in lost shoots, the mortal sin of television) and prudent care requires a charger that will deep discharge the batteries cyclically to prevent the "memory effect" from taking hold. And the better chargers can also cure "dead cell" problems resulting from metallic whiskers forming in a cell in there. But given the low bid mentality of government agencies and a typical "commodity mentality" lack of knowledge, my bet is the TA bought chitty shargers for the batteries ...
These batteries are very sensitive to the kind of treatment they receive. I have a Motorola Radius GP300 as my ambulance pager. I must have that radio on at all times, and I find that I need two batteries one in the chager the other on the radio.
When they are new I can get 12 hours on 12 hours off on each battery, as they deterioate, I can only get 6 on and 6 off, and then less, but then I have them replaced, and they are frequently but not always within their waranty period.
The problem is not with the chargers or the batteries, but in the management of time on and time off of the charge, and when you turn batteries in each evening, who is keeping track of which are new and whcih are are on thier last legs and should be tossed.
The best solution is that each operating employee should have a personal radio with their own personal battery. Charge them at home, not at the depot, then you will know the exact contiton of your battery, and will get a new one when the old becomes unreliable. These radios are only about $700 each, and the TA should get a much better price on the quantities that they need.
Elias
Why not NiMH or LiON batteries? Not sure which type is in my cell phone but I've been using it for nearly three years, charging it every four or five days (depending on my usage) - and that's doing the charge when it indicates half strength remaining.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
NiMH's don't suffer the "memory" phenomena, but they cost out the wazoo ... "low bids" don't play dat ... but yes, if the adminiswigs could convince the beancounters of the savings, it would be a smart move. Sadly, Administrivia positions fail to find that in their desk titles ... but those puppies COST ... they pay it off, but not in one election cycle. :)
NiMH is not that more expensive than NiCd, maybe double the price (based on Radio Shack pricing) Lithium ions are the ones "costing out the wazoo"
Arti
Li batteries CAN be recharged, but it ain't easy. NiMH's were what I was thinking for TA radios though since it's a mature technology. The problem is that they DO cost twice as much as the other and when you're dealing with government purchases, "low bidder" usually wins. When you write specifications that precludes NiCd, then the companies that make NiCd will come after you for "rigging the bids" ...
In the "real world" you can buy whatever makes sense, and to keep stockholders happy, you will try to go for the lowest bid. You don't have that kind of leeway though in government purchasing because no matter WHAT you do, someone's going to whine at an elected so you go the path of least resistance ... just to avoid the investigations. :)
Actually, I just checked my phone (you got me curious...), it has an Li-ion battery which I installed in January 1999 to replace the original NiMH. The NiMH lasted seven months before it would no longer hold a charge for more than a couple of hours. Because we have a network upgrade going on tomorrow, which means I'm likely to be on the phone for a couple of hours, I'll put the phone on the charger tonight since it's at half strength (after four days of mostly standby, 30 minutes of talk time); otherwise, thanks to the Li-ion battery, I wouldn't have to bother until tomorrow night at the earliest.
The Li-ion battery cost $85 when I purchased it, in contrast to the NiMH, which would have been about $40 at that time. Today's list prices are $50 and $25 respectively (from the Nokia website), with street prices presumably lower. Batteries for TA radios would presumably have to have higher ratings, since they are in constant talk mode and should have the capacity to last an entire shift - even the 1500 mAh of the Li-ion (in contrast to the 900 mAh) of the NiMH referenced above wouldn't be sufficient for an entire shift, based on my experience with the phone.
Another interesting observation which I can't explain, but which someone who knows batteries probably can: the NiMH batteries seem to do fine with the "fast" chargers, but if I charge the Li-ion with the "fast" charger it really doesn't end up fully charged. The "slow" charger does fine overnight anyway, so it's not a problem, but I have to remember to take the charger with me when travelling so I can plug it in at night if I need to, rather than being able to just plug it into the accessory outlet in my Windstar.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Agreed that the Li batteries are the best way to go but the price would put them out of the running for a TA contract I would expect. Li batteries CAN be recharged BUT they're funny chemically ... the slow charge would work better there (though a fast charge with pulses on it would also work) - has to do with the slower chemical reaction. Unfortunately most chargers are designed for NiCds which aren't fussy. To do NiMH and LiO batteries properly, you need some waveshaping of the DC with a sharp spike every couple of seconds, a reverse spike every couple of seconds and varying current load. Just the way the beasts work. There ARE chargers for them but also beaucoup pricey.
Would the TA care enough that the radios work to jump to a higher price plateau for the next battery purchases? :)
Would the TA care enough that the radios work to jump to a higher price plateau for the next battery purchases?
That would depend on the adaptability of the radios to the newer batteries. I don't know how the TA radios are constructed. If the batteries are internal/removeable, they probably can't change, assuming I am right in my observation that Li-ion batteries are physically larger than the equivalent capacity NiMH or NiCd - not much, but just enough that I don't think they would fit in the same hole (my Li-ion cell phone battery is 2mm thicker than the NiMH one, which is the basis of this observation). If the batteries are part of a slip-on pack, like my cellphone (or as a bundle attached at the base of the radio, as some are), then changing them shouldn't be a big deal. And, for my cell phone at least, the slow charger works equally well with all of the battery types, although as you point out ideally the charger should be exactly matched to the battery.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
The "catch" with LiO batteries is that they really weren't INTENDED to be recharged. LiO batteries' MAJOR selling point is their longer shelf life and the fact that the voltage across the cell tends to remain high until it dies, rather than that awful log curve towards death of other batteries ... but the manufacturers didn't really *intend* for them to be recharged, thus their funky characteristic. Exploding cylinders is not my idea of fun ... unless connected to a transmission or prime mover of course. :)
Kevin, maybe I'm missing something here (and given that I know almost nothing about chemistry or electronics that's entirely possible), but I can't imagine a cellphone battery not being intended to be recharged. Seems to me if they're being manufactured purpose-specific like that, they must have an expectation that they'll be charged a few thousand times.
My laptop has a Li-ion battery too...
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
OK ... let me back this up a bit - when "Lithium" batteries were FIRST introduced, they came with warnings NOT to attempt to charge them. What's happened over time since their introduction is that it was determined with some changes in the design that they COULD be made to safely dissipate the internal heat and thus because of their long voltage curve (they don't drop off with age as do older batteries on a discharge cycle - they tend to stay at voltage until they're nearly depleted, thus their popularity even when they were "one use" batteries) they became VERY attractive for recharge use.
But the original designs of these batteries didn't anticipate recharging and the way the chemisty in the cells works, they behave oddly when charged in a traditional NiCd type brute-force charger. Give them high current and they heat up and the charge cycle gets a bit funny (due to the chemistry) with a traditional "fast charge" ... if you TRICKLE charge them, they don't heat internally as much and can therefore take the charge a bit better.
Where I was going with all this is that to handle LiO's properly, you need a "funny charge" where a medium current with "burps" or "spikes" clocking along allows a pretty rapid charge, at least comparable with the charge speeds folks expect from more traditional NiCds of NiMHs ... so if the charger is designed to work with the LiO's, then happy days. Most aren't and thus they'll behave a bit funny absent the "conditioning signals" ... what I was postulating is that the funny chargers that would make LiO's a practical swap for TA use would probably be VERY pricey ... does that sorta swing what I was saying back towards something semi-logical? (I was posting before with wigs over my shoulder wondering how I could write code posting on subtalk. Answer, I couldn't, needed a brain break ... heh)
does that sorta swing what I was saying back towards something semi-logical?
Yes, I follow what you're saying now...
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
My digital camera uses AA Batteries. The manual specifically said nmot to use Li-ion batteries since they produce extra heat which could damage the camera. I do use NiMH batteries. Perhaps the TA Radios have the same stipulation
I'm sure they do ... but even with the existing battery stock, if they had the "burper" chargers, chances are there wouldn't be so many pooted radios out there. Anton-Bauer made nice chargers for TV industry use and they're still out there. There ARE solutions for the problem but my guess is the low bidder didn't provide same. So it goes.
Yeah, those radios are a few years old now and I'll bet a lot
of them are still on their original packs. BUT, the main thrust
of my post was that while the radios are being used in the cab, they
should be docked and draw power from the train, rather than
running down the batteries.
No comments from Train Dude on this one? The radio changeover
was after I left, so I have no idea why this wasn't done. Maybe
there is a good engineering reason for it.
>>> the main thrust of my post was that while the radios are being used in the cab, they should be docked and draw power from the train, <<<
The problem with leaving the radios docked in the cab is that if they are there most of the time, there would be a tendency for a T/O or C/R to leave it there when leaving the cab. That of course is the time that it is most likely to be needed. Leaving them on charge most of the day would also increase the memory effect on the NiCad batteries.
Tom
Agreed ... once upon a time that was the way it went though and when "docked" the battery was out of circuit, there to run when it wasn't in its cradle ... but yes, it still comes down to how the charger HANDLES the batteries when they're dropped in it.
I am sure there are other negative aspects to this but what does TA care as long as the bottom line shows a profit.
In this day and age, no public agency in the "business" of hauling people ever "shows a profit." Passenger rail is and will forever be heavily subsidized in one way or another, no matter what fancy accounting methods are employed. What the TA cares about is allowing those who appointed them to be able to claim that they saved the taxpayers money so they, in turn, keep their jobs. The public, as "shareholders" in the MTA, will never "make money" from that investment!
Now, whether the investment is necessary, and how much of it should filter to the rank-and-file public transport workers' paychecks, is another debate.
Why not cut management.. I do believe one "suit" at 130 Linvingston or 370 Jay makes more than we do. If they cut 200+ station agents why not cut some "suits"---sounds fair!
OPTO, unmanned or lightly manned stations...go ahead, cut the jobs.
The we wind up with yet more safety/security problems so we need more police and wind up spending yet more money. Maybe they're happier with a police state? In the midst of it all gainful employment for clerks, train persons etc is reduced but then no different from the big RR's or corporate America generally.
Chicago TA has abolished the conductors and despite keping former agents at the stations as customer assistants I noticed last map I got had a statement that said to the effect if you need assistance ask a customer assistant [or whatever title they have now] or sceurity person. Does this translate to attrition for the agents in time to be replaced with security people? Sad commentary on life.
Kings Hwy Brighton, they have been picking up the money with armored cars the last 4 times I've seen the money transfer from the main booth.
Too bad for the money train, they always stayed extra here because they layed up on the express track and ran to the 24 hr Dunkin Dounuts.
I saw the collector on CPW yesterday, early AM.
Peace,
ANDEE
Do you also think that cities made a mistake by doing away with cops directing traffic on the street corner and replacing them with traffic lights? After all having traffic lights is far less safe then having cops.
Notice the TA's refusal to indicate which stations would be affected. They do not want the community battle they faced with the G cut down.
My understanding is that every station will still have some level of 24/7 staffing, either inside or outside the booth.
That, of course, leads to a Really Stupid Question: For how many decades have PATH's stations been completely UNstaffed? With NO ILL EFFECTS reported?
Even the Los Angeles County MTA has totally unstaffed stations on the heavy-rail Red Line as well as the light-rail Blue and Green Lines. (Between my last two visits, I saw only one MTA cop - at the Hollywood/Vine station, one landing down from street level.)
>>> Even the Los Angeles County MTA has totally unstaffed stations on the heavy-rail Red Line as well as the light-rail Blue and Green Lines. (Between my last two visits, I saw only one MTA cop <<<
After 7:00 PM on weekdays, the three downtown stations of the Red Line beyond the 7th Street transfer station to the Blue Line are virtually deserted with no MTA personnel (but plenty of cameras) and very few passengers. The major problems are with gang shootings on buses rather than muggings in the subway.
The LAMTA police force must be a very small organization. They are not the ones who do the fare checks. The L.A. County Sheriff's Office provides the manpower for that. The only time I ever saw an LAMTA police officer was guarding property gates during the recent strike. Of course police are scarce all over L.A. (unless you commit some offense such as DWB). Even some of the doughnut shops are unmanned at times.
Tom
The LAMTA police force must be a very small organization. They are not the ones who do the fare checks. The L.A. County Sheriff's Office provides the manpower for that. The only time I ever saw an LAMTA police officer was guarding property gates during the recent strike. Of course police are scarce all over L.A. (unless you commit some offense such as DWB). Even some of the doughnut shops are unmanned at times.
You're right about the scarcity of police. I did a lot of travel around Los Angeles during our trip last February, and saw very few police cars of any department (LAPD, LASO, etc.) NYPD units are far more prevalent in New York.
>>> I did a lot of travel around Los Angeles during our trip last February, and saw very few police cars <<<
The L.A.P.D. are known as the "thin blue line" for a reason. There are less than 8,000 sworn officers in the city including supervisors, detectives, traffic officers, etc. The population of L.A. is close to 3 million, with more from the suburbs in the city during the daytime. Since each officer works a little less than 160 hours a month, considering time off and sick leave and vacations, it takes 4.57 officers to provide one officer on duty 24 hours a day every day of the year. This works out to an average of 1,714 citizens for each police officer on duty. If 99% of Los Angelinos are fully law abiding, the police are still outnumbered 17 to 1 by the bad guys.
Tom
In most small cities the police people ratio is like 3 to 5 k. I was reading up on 18th Century London and in the East End (the poor part) where was one cop per 347 citizens. That's the reason why London never saw the mass riots and upheavals that the other Europian capitols saw in that same time period.
>>> I was reading up on 18th Century London and in the East End (the poor part) where was one cop per 347 citizens. <<<
And in NYC today the ratio is about 1 cop per 200 citizens. (41,000 police)
Tom
PATCO stations are usually unmanned except for NJ suburban stations from 6:30 to 9:30 when a ticket window is open for the purchase of 2 and 10 ride tickets.
There are no HEET Turnstyles or anything and they have never really had a problem even w/ 24/7 operation.
PATCO station houses are at street level (in NJ)with extensive use of glass so they are visible to passing police. NJYC stations are either underground or hung under the tracks or at track level (el station) with solid sides and rear so they are not visible.
PATCO stations also have closed circuit TV cameras all over the place, which is a disincentive for criminal activity. It also means that innocent riders who misplace their tickets and hop over the turnstile to exit are on tape.
In NYC, cameras get spray painted or even broken. Once it took 3 hours to get my cameras back in service and that was in Midtown Manhattan. My supervisor did not even call until 30 minutes after I reported the problem. I can imagine how long a camera would be out in the tip of the Bronx or the tip of the Rockaways. How many will get robbed, hurt, suffer severe medical emergency, get stuck in high tunstiles while waiting for someone to clean/repair the cameras. I have also worked stations where 1-3 of the monitors were out for weeks! Yes- the problem was called in every shift and no action was taken.
Not expressing an opinion either way, but I'm sure that you'd agree that with the money saved from 200-some station agents, a 24-hour rapid response team to fix broken/vandalized cameras could fit within the budget.
It also means that innocent riders who misplace their tickets and hop over the turnstile to exit are on tape.
As I lost my ticket and had to hop on Tuesday this might be a concearn, but they also have me on tape paying, buying the correct ticket and me on the platform searching frantically for my ticket.
"PATCO station houses are at street level (in NJ)with extensive use of glass so they are visible to passing police. NJYC stations are either underground or hung under the tracks or at track level (el station) with solid sides and rear so they are not visible."
Several MBTA Green line stations do not have collectors and are either underground or on an el. There is not any safety problem at those stations.
PATCO station houses are at street level (in NJ)with extensive use of glass so they are visible to passing police. NYC stations are either underground or hung under the tracks or at track level (el station) with solid sides and rear so they are not visible.
Several MBTA Green line stations do not have collectors and are either underground or on an el. There is not any safety problem at those stations.
Same goes for PATH.
i forgot what line will be giving the r62's to the 7. does anyone know? and do you think that by septenber we will have the 62's?
another thing is, what is a r62 full width cab and a half width cab? does that mean that the car changes width?
I know it's nitpicky, but I'm the son of an English teacher. I can't help it. The question is which line.
I'm sure a witch could change the car's width, but that is not what the "Full width/half width" cab means. A full width cab extends all the way across the front or rear end of the car, thus blocking access to the doors and "railfan window", though providing a much more comfortable work area for the T/O. They're found at the "A" ends of all 75-footers (R44, R46, R68), and some R62s. A half width cab is only a little boot at the end of each car, found in other car classes.
I don't know where the 7 will get its R62As from. I hear some from the 6 and some from the 3, but that's just what I heard.
:-) Andrew
Please to get the terminology correct.
What you are calling a full-width cab is a Transverse Cab; what you are calling a half-width cab is a just a plain old Cab (which is not a boot. Or are you related to Joe Pesci's character in My Cousin Vinny?). Transverse cabs are found on the open ends of all R62 and R62A cars that have been 'married' into five car units, as well as the A ends of the 75-footers, as you stated. The open end of the 62-type equipment can be either the #1 or #2 end of the car.
is your last name Karwowski?
is your last name Karwowski?
Sorry, no. It's Kirschner. Andrew Kirschner.
(Shaken, not stired.)
:)
Carl LaFong. Capital L, small A. Capital F, small O, small N, small G. LaFong.
Are you trying to relieve air congestion by encouraging witches to get off their brooms and use transit?
Mark
ok my mistake its WHICH
The R62A cars are now suppose to come from the No.1 and No.3 Lines. As of now the No.6 Line cars are being sent to the No.1&3 to make room for the R142A's.
Isn't that in Salem?
Picked up the train sim at the COMP USA on 5th for $44. They have 15 copies in stock. Didn't have much time to play last night, but graphics and sounds were pretty cool. Anyone else have any feedback on the sim?
This one is a success! I love it, it's fun, realistic and the views are fantastic. I get a constant 32fps when playing, my specs are:
Dell L700cx with:
700mhz Celeron
256MB RAM
20GB Hard Drive (1.8 for a Full Install of MSTS :-\)
Hercules 3D Prophet II MX PCI
a 15" monitor running at 800x600
It's worth the money or the download, whichever way you swing :-)
-Clayton
Wait until you realize the locomotive performance issues.
-Hank
You should have waited until tomorrow. It goes on sale at CompUSA for $29.99. Just might go grab one myself.
Jury faults Amtrak in teenager's death
A Boston Blobe stroy.
Now There were three signs saying to stay off the tracks also she had to weave her way around three fences yet somehow it's Amtrak's fault. And the fact that other people were doing it: that falls under the if other people were jumping off a bridge category. Maybe the MBTA was right to cave in to the demands.
[There were three signs saying to stay off the tracks....]
Again, I'm reminded of the "pisser" case in Chicago. A guy wandered onto a CTA right-of-way at a grade crossing, urinated on the third rail, and was electrocuted. His family sued, claiming that the warning signs should have been printed IN CHINESE!!
Hell with it. The railroads must be legally protected from people getting hurt from doing dumb things. People driving around crossing gates and getting killed. People should pay the railroad for delaying trains.
There should be a law stating that injuries sustained during the commission of a crime - like trespassing - are not compensatable.
If a burglar breaks into your house and gets hurt when he falls after tripping on something, he would have real brass ones if he filed a lawsuit. If some idiot kid climbed on top of a passenger car on the Northeast Corridor line and got electrocuted when he contacted the catenary, and I was the judge hearing the case brought by his parents, I would make them pay for the cost of the accident investigation, and lecture them hard about the plain fact that their child was trespassing and had no business being where he was when he died. They would have to live with the fact that he died of his own idiocy, and that the rest of us were not going to pay them because he was stupid. Now, if he was on a platform and the catenary wire broke and fell on him, causing his death, then his family would get compensation, because he did not deliberately put himself in harm's way when he died. There is a big difference between being an innocent bystander and a real knucklehead.
In the interest of accuracy, I believe the family was Korean. I can't recall the final disposition of that case. Can someone from Chicago remind us?
I thought he was hispanic, actually, but I'm not certain of it. The location of his demise was in a very hispanic neighborhood.
-- David
Chicago, IL
>>> Maybe the MBTA was right to cave in to the demands. <<<
They certainly were. The prior death indicated that it was a dangerous place, and the railroad was given notice that the warning signs were being ignored. The partial fence they built was inadequate to prevent trespassing and provided a trap for anyone on the tracks when a train was approaching.
From what was written in the article, this was a plaintiff's lawyer's dream case.
Tom
>From what was written in the article, this was a plaintiff's lawyer's dream case.
No kidding. A warning sign doesn't get you out of trouble, especially when you know it's not effective:
Say you have a dog. It bites someone. It likes biting people. So, you put a sign up: "Beware of dog". 2 months later, it mauls a kid who runs onto your property to retrive a ball. You're liable. And, the plantif loves you cause you put up a sign admitting your dog was dangerous. So you admitted that you had a dangerous condition, and you knew people were walking on your property too (else why have the sign?)
Of course, I'm sure the Amfreaks will somehow link this to the vast conspiracy to kill Amtrak off....
"(else why have the sign?)"
Because their insurance company requires the sign.
Elias
>>> Say you have a dog. It bites someone. It likes biting people. So, you put a sign up: "Beware of dog". 2 months later, it mauls a kid who runs onto your property to retrive a ball. You're liable. And, the plantif loves you cause you put up a sign admitting your dog was dangerous. So you admitted that you had a dangerous condition, and you knew people were walking on your property too (else why have the sign?) <<<
I think your analogy is a bit off. If the kid who runs into the yard after the ball is the first one who ever did it, and he is old enough to read, you might escape liability. If you know you have a vicious dog, and you fail to post a sign you are in a lot worse shape than if you did post it. The sign does not show you knew people were walking on your property, it is a warning not to walk on the property. I would advise anyone who owns a dog, no matter how gentle, to post a "beware of dog" sign.
A better analogy would be having the sign up all the time with no fence, but only having the dog in the yard once in awhile, and knowing that the local kids regularly cut through the yard as a shortcut. If you have done nothing to prevent the kids from using your yard as a shortcut, but one day your vicious dog is there (on a long chain which allows him to reach the edge of your property but no further), and the dog ambushes and mauls a kid you are in big trouble, and the sign is going to be no defense at all.
In the railroad context, there should be signs telling people not to cross or walk on the tracks, but if the railroad knows that large numbers of people regularly walk on the tracks in a given area, and does nothing to effectively stop them, the signs are not going to prevent liability, when someone is struck by a train.
Tom
The "dog" analogy is a bad one legally since there is a legal requirement in all jurisdictions for you to "control your dog" ... if you've sat through enough Wapner, Judy, Mathis, whatever, you are required to control the dog at all times ... and on the railroad side, there is also a control element and to control the property even when trespassed.
SOME railroads take that seriously with barbly wire, dogs and antivandal forces to show "due dilligence" ... railroad will probably lose based on that "control" angle ... I believe in Darwin myself and live accordingly but that doesn't get past what our politicos have been doing in modifying the law to near perversions ...
"Beware of dog" is as meaningless as "not responsible for lost or stolen property" ... neither sign repels sharks. :)
ONLY IN " AMERI-KAAAAA ! ! "
Let's see if I understand how America works lately . . .
If a woman burns her thighs on the hot coffee she was holding in her lap while driving, she blames the restaurant.
If your teen-age son kills himself, you blame the rock 'n' roll music
or musician he liked.
If you smoke three packs a day for 40 years and die of lung cancer,
your family blames the tobacco company.
If your daughter gets pregnant by the football captain you blame the
school for poor sex education.
If your neighbor crashes into a tree while driving home drunk, you
blame the bartender.
If your cousin gets AIDS because the needle he used to shoot up with heroin was dirty, you blame the government for not providing clean ones.
If your grandchildren are brats without manners, you blame television.
If your friend is shot by a deranged madman, you blame the gun
manufacturer.
And if a crazed person breaks into the cockpit and tries to kill the
pilots at 35,000 feet, and the passengers kill him instead, the mother of the deceased blames the airline.
I must have lived too long to understand the world as it is anymore.
So if I die while my old, wrinkled ass is parked in front of this
computer, I want you to blame Bill Gates, OK?
[So if I die while my old, wrinkled ass is parked in front of this
computer, I want you to blame Bill Gates, OK? ]
Can I blame Andy Grove and the whole country of Hungary?
Arti
Heh. "Joint and several liability" says "let's go after them ALL!"
>>> So if I die while my old, wrinkled ass is parked in front of this computer, I want you to blame Bill Gates, OK? <<<
I don't know about going after Bill Gates, but I think we should go after the PC industry just like they finally got the tobacco industry. I am a great example of the harm using a PC can do.
I got my first PC in 1979 and have been using them continuously since them, and I have noticed the following symptoms that were not present before then:
1. Most of my hair has fallen out, and that which hasn't has turned gray.
2. I have had to start using glasses to read.
3. I tire more easily.
4. I seem to have more aches in my joints.
5. My hearing is not as acute as it was before using the PC.
6. My reflexes seem to be slowing down.
7. My memory is not as good as it was before using the PC,
8. My libido is reduced.
9. I have had a minor stroke and heart attack.
10. I have had to start taking insulin for diabetes.
11. I have gained about 30 pounds.
12. When I look in the mirror it seems like I have prematurely aged. (I bet Dick Clark does not use a PC)
I have noticed similar symptoms in other long term PC users, and it may be contagious, because I have even seen some of the symptoms in others who do not use PCs but are in regular contact with those who do.
Now all we have to do is find a lawyer who will file a class action suit against the PC industry for causing all this harm. :-^)
Tom
Maybe the one who just sued MBTA and Amtrakis available...:0)
Definitely sue the PC maker! Those things don't happen to Mac users.
Right on!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
How about webtv ? Jim Jr. called my new set the getto web ? I've been on the internet one year. Now I cant get off.
You can't blame the PC, Blame your parents. They decided to have you and that caused the birth date on your drivers licence. :-)
Try losing the thirty pounds while under your doctor's supervision, and you might reduce or eliminate your need for insulin. Get up and exercise more, again under your doctor's supervision, and your risk of heart disease will decrease. Work out more, again, under your doctor's supervision, and you might feel less tired. Work with your doctor, and push yourself, and you might just live longer. The PC did not put you in the condition you are in, you did. If you lose the weight and feel more energized, your wife just might start to chase you around the house while wearing nothing but a big red flower in her hair and a devilish smile on her face. Think of the incentives, and have fun!
I like your attitude.
The PC did not put you in the condition you are in, you did.
Er, I think you're taking Old Tom's post a bit more seriously than he intended. I read it as metaphorically dripping with sarcasm. Note that the changes he describes have taken place since 1979 ... the real culprit is Father Time.
True, but you have to make Father Time run for his money. Live healthy, and you will enjoy more of life. Old Man Time is on the hunt for all of us, but we must not let our lives get ruined because of that. I want to enjoy life, but I will do what is reasonable and prudent to do so, and avoid unnecessary risks, like smoking, excess alcohol, inactivity, and the like. I hope to be able to enjoy the R-143 when it is part of a nostalgia train - now that is stretching things, but you must admit, it would be one really fun ride. Maybe by then the Second Ave. line will be in operation, and maybe ( shocking ) the airtrain currently under construction just might be a part of the SUBWAY SYSTEM!
Hey Doc,
The Philadelphia Inquirer had an interesting article on obesity in the Sunday Edition. From getting up in the morning, you can use TV remotes, drive to work, pick up food and gas at drive-up windows, work in a cubicle and send emails to somebody sitting five feet away, eat lunch, back to work, then have cheesecake because of some celebration. Then you go home, eat dinner and watch TV.
The subway is our friend here. Even if you use ADA access, you still have to walk to the train station (or bus stop), get on, ride, get off, walk to work, then walk from work, ride the train, walk home. On the train or bus, sometimes you give up your seat to a lady with a cane, so you stand for the ride. Shifting your feet and pulling on the bars is a bit of a workout too.
Now, to that, I add (when I'm at that kind of job): climbing stairs (I don't use the ADA access most of the time); I like to talk to colleagues, so I get up and walk to them, not shoot emails all day;
and do some of my grocery shopping "hoofing it." (OK, so sometimes my wife and I use a car - you can't take 30 lbs of Costco stuff home very easily on the train).
I owe part of my normal weight to the transit system.
That goes to show you that you and no one else but you - has to do the right thing for your own health. If you do not get out there and move around, the rust will set in, the pipes will clog up, and the system will break down. Give old man time a run for his money.
When do we start suing the movie and TV industries for youth crime, serial killings in schools etc.
Can't be any worse than the Amtrak case we're discussing, or the tobacco situation.
I've enjoyed my pipe for most of 40 years...I know smokers and those in the second hand smoke environment that lived long lives and know people who died from it. Nobody put a gun to their head to smoke.
Likewise living with an alky for over two years; I doubt if alcohol ads MADE any of these people drink. Should we pick on them next for highway slaughter, children going hungry, disease and premature deaths, etc.
You cross a street you look, or else...no? Areas other than public crossings on any rail line are NOT public, but if the shortcut is atrractive don't you look for trains? You buy coffee you don't want it lukewarm...but sue if you get burned? Where does it end?
[Nobody put a gun to their head to smoke.]
Sorry Ed but I have to disagree with you there. If the tobacco companies put additives into cigarettes that make them addictive they certainly are negligent and guilty, civilly and possibly criminally. I smoked for almost 30 years and know how hard it is to quit. Smokers should all be mad as hell at the companies instead of sticking up for them.
Guess I hadn't thought of that angle. [addiction causing additives]. I don't get nicotine fits or nervous without my pipe...it bothers me more not having my pacifier but I've gone an entire day without sometimes and don't get owly.
"The prior death indicated that it was a dangerous place, and the railroad was given notice that the warning signs were being ignored. The partial fence they built was inadequate to prevent trespassing and provided a trap for anyone on the tracks when a train was approaching."
They shouldn't need any sign or any fence. Do you need a sign to tell people to stay out of your home? What she did was no different then if she had broken into your home and fell down your stairs. She was a criminal and had she been arrested the police would have been sued for that.
>>> What she did was no different then if she had broken into your home and fell down your stairs. <<<
Oh Come on! Are you really trying to equate a passenger (who is a business invitee) crossing a ROW following others on a well trodden path with a residential burglary? They are miles apart. And by the way, burglars have recovered for injuries caused by dangerous conditions on the premises they broke into. And if you are a homeowner, you definitely must not use a spring gun or any other booby trap which kills or maims an intruder, or you will be the one going to prison.
Tom
"Oh Come on! Are you really trying to equate a passenger (who is a business invitee) crossing a ROW following others on a well trodden path with a residential burglary? They are miles apart. And by the way, burglars have recovered for injuries caused by dangerous conditions on the premises they broke into. And if you are a homeowner, you definitely must not use a spring gun or any other booby trap which kills or maims an intruder, or you will be the one going to prison."
The principle being that a burglar does not deserve to die for his offense (unless he steals O-gauge R-32's, in which case a slow death by torture would be appropriate :-))
I hold the parents responsible, because this, undoubtedly, was not the first time this child had crossed those tracks. I am also angry at the irresponsible adults who showed, by example, that crossing the tracks was an acceptable behavior.
When in the presence of children, it is important to play by the book - it may be inconvenient, but kids don't anticipate consequences, and an adult can lead by example and save lives.
>>> I hold the parents responsible, because this, undoubtedly, was not the first time this child had crossed those tracks. <<<
I did not re-read the article, but IIRC these were teenage children, not toddlers, and this might have been the first time they were at this station. There was an underpass to get to the other side of the tracks, but it was poorly marked and rarely used.
>>> I am also angry at the irresponsible adults who showed, by example, that crossing the tracks was an acceptable behavior. <<<
Unfortunately, as evidenced by the well worn path, crossing the tracks was acceptable behavior to the regular riders who used that station, and worse, it was clearly acceptable to the railroad who was on notice of the practice and did nothing to prevent it.
Tom
"Unfortunately, as evidenced by the well worn path, crossing the tracks was acceptable behavior to the regular riders who used that station, and worse, it was clearly acceptable to the railroad who was on notice of the practice and did nothing to prevent it."
You mean nothing beyond the measures already in place, including fences and signs. That, by itself, should have been enough.
Nonetheless, had I been the one to make a decision, I would have posted transit police who would have issued summonses (citations, tickets etc.) for crossing the tracks, and I would have called the media to help focus attentio on safety. I think $150 citation (or something like that) would have been a reasonable gift to these track-walkers.
Oh, and, yes, I would have lengthened the fence too (which they finally did).
Good ideas, but I would like to see some pro-active initiatives taken by those in charge to make sure that safety is enforced, even if some are inconvenienced. The worst inconvenience for anyone is to have to go to a hospital or morgue to see a family member who was mangled by something they could have avoided. If an overpass needs to be built, then build it, but make sure that those who opt to cross the tracks instead of using the overpass get socked with a hefty fine and or community service. Then maybe a light will go on in some heads and they will avoid taking needless risks.
Maybe these frivilous lawsuit decisions are a result of 12 people showing how much they dislike Jury Duty and bad they wanted to get out of it ?
Bill "Newkirk"
This is one instance I feel is difficult to blame the victim. They should either have a good fence layout or none at all, if there were no fence she would have been able to get out of the way much easier. If the fences were better arranged she would not have bothered trying.
We find it easy to blame her for taking a shortcut, but really why would anyone bother with an underpass with such an (apparantly) easy to use shortcut? Human nature simply does not allow for people to take a longer, more difficult route simply because it is safer. Why do you think so many people jaywalk across Queens Blvd?
[Why do you think so many people jaywalk across Queens Blvd? ]
Do you suggest that the relatives of those killed on QB should sue DOT?
Arti
They should if while attempting to jaywalk one of those new fences prevents them from jumping out of the way of a car in time!
Either do a complete idiot-proofing or none at all. Or at the very least provide escape hatches (BTW: This is why the QB fences weave instead of completely isolating the island).
Train bridges with no clearance have no fences, so that those trapped can at least jump.
NJTransit tracks with fences between will have at least one side without a fence, either on the side away from the track or another track will be within the fenced area (ie: Ridgewood station).
Back to the topic at hand, it would have been totally her fault if there were reasonable escape, but the way the article was written there seems to have been none. Devices designed to deter people from crossing tracks should not prevent a reasonable escape should one choose to do so anyway. In many places in New Jersey railroad ROWs separate areas where the nearest crossing may be half a mile away. People as a result will cross the tracks, but most will be alert and wary while doing so. Put a fence up, people will still cross the tracks to avoid walking an extra mile (1/2 * 2) and will also attempt to go around, over, or through the fence. The additional obstacle will make the situation much more dangerous, and the blame can be more easily placed with the RR.
Then the answer is to secure the ROW completely, providing auto and/or pedestrian overpasses and underpasses to allow traffic to cross. Otherwise, put fences up on both side of the ROW, and signs forbidding trespassing.
Incidentally, SEPTA has decided that track-level pedestrian crossings at stations are a bad idea and will no longer install them in new or refurbished stations. SEPTA has not decided, yet, however, to remove the existing ones.
>>> SEPTA has decided that track-level pedestrian crossings at stations are a bad idea and will no longer install them in new or refurbished stations. <<<
In Southern California, the Metrolink commuter rail has some center low platforms with pedestrian crossings across the tracks to get to the platform. (Ticket machines are on the platforms) In El Monte, the parking lot for the station is right next to the outbound track, with a pedestrian crossing to the station at the middle of the platform. I do not remember seeing any gate or flashing light for that crossing. I could imagine a commuter running across those tracks to catch an inbound train in the station and being swatted by an outbound train. (No trains are scheduled to meet at the same time at that station, but you never know.)
Tom
NJ Transit's crossings do have bells and lights, at least (the Hawthorne station, for example, does).
I say, install elevated platforms (to door height) and use an overpass. Besides, you need that t be ADA-compliant anyway.
In El Monte, the parking lot for the station is right next to the outbound track, with a pedestrian crossing to the station at the middle of the platform. I do not remember seeing any gate or flashing light for that crossing. I could imagine a commuter running across those tracks to catch an inbound train in the station and being swatted by an outbound train.
In the manner of Traingirl.
Surely people don't jaywalk on Queens Boulavard.
Who would walk a Jay anyway?
Elias
Still, when you take risks, and have an unfortunate outcome, you should not blame anyone but yourself. Train tracks are not safe places to be, and if you do not belong there, stay out. Only a firefighter would go into a burning building, right? Sometimes taking the long way is much safer. If there is a need for a shorter access route, then get enough signatures on a petition and send it to the local lawmakers so that a solution can be reached. Make them work for the money they get.
On *my* railroad, saftey fences are in place between the tracks and around the platforms so that passengers cannot do this.
An I'm only running at 1:87 scale.
: )
Elias
Of course it's the parents I hold responsible. A 13-year-old is at an age where concrete thinking still prevails; consequences of actions are not fully appreciated. This can't be the first time the girl crossed those tracks.
I am angry at irresponsible adults doing it, esp. when they give a poor example for a child. When there are children present, adults have a special responsibility to act more strictly by the rules precisely because the children are taking note of this behavior.
If I am by myself, I might jaywalk across a very narrow street where, from a practical point of view, it doesn't matter. But if I see a kid standing next to me, I won't. The kid might cross anyway, but I have to at least satisfy my own conscience that I didn't encourage it. As an adult, I exercise discretion that a child is not equipped to.
I hope Amtrak appeals the decision, and finds an Appeals Court panel with enough integrity to dismiss this case. The parents are gold diggers.
Ron, don't you think it's a bit inappropriate to be calling people names after they've lost a child.
There is no question in a case like this that the death was due to negligence, including, at least in part, the negligence of at least one of the defendants. Someone who owns or controls property has a duty to eliminate unsafe conditions of which that party is aware. The documents show that both Amtrak and MBTA were aware of the unsafe condition.
The question is who had control of the property, Amtrak or MBTA or both. It appears from the article that MBTA had control, not Amtrak. If that's the case, I expect that either the trial judge will grant a motion for JNOV (Judgment Not withstanding the Verdict) or the First Circuit will reverse.
BTW, these are the same Circuit Judges who recently refused to allow bail pending Sharpton's appeal.
"Ron, don't you think it's a bit inappropriate to be calling people names after they've lost a child."
OK, you have a point. Yes, they're grieving over the child and are fully entitled to emotions of grief and anger. I don't hold the child fully responsible, because she was 13 and in need of guidance. Trouble is, so were the adults in this case.
But, no, they're not allowed to steal money from taxpayers because they lost the child and refuse to acknowledge their own responsibility.
"There is no question in a case like this that the death was due to negligence, including, at least in part, the negligence of at least one of the defendants. Someone who owns or controls property has a duty to eliminate unsafe conditions of which that party is aware. The documents show that both Amtrak and MBTA were aware of the unsafe condition."
That's a matter of opinion, and is not beyond debate, as you seem to think. Hopefully this case goes to appeals court. It may be clear to you, but it is not all that clear to me. I do think that it would have been prudent for MBTA to do something sooner, rather than later, as I've posted before.
"The question is who had control of the property, Amtrak or MBTA or both. It appears from the article that MBTA had control, not Amtrak. If that's the case, I expect that either the trial judge will grant a motion for JNOV (Judgment Not withstanding the Verdict) or the First Circuit will reverse."
Yes, Amtrak has a strong case there, I think. We can only hope...
Unfortunately, there is no shortage of case law on the subject of what constitutes negligence on the part of a railroad. (Also, bus and transit companies.) For example, tort case books used to include a pair of banana-peel-on-the-platform cases from the Supreme Judicial Court of Massachussetts (Holmes, Ch. J.). I suspect that MBTA settled with that case law in mind. If we were writing on a clean slate, we might make different law. We might, for example, deside that it is OK to have snares, pitfalls, and boobie traps on one's property or that a property owner owes no duty to trespassers. However, given the precedents, I do think that the MBTA's negligence was really beyond debate.
I do think that it would have been prudent for MBTA to do something sooner, rather than later, as I've posted before.
Negligence is the absence of due care. Isn't the absence of due care just another way of describing a lack of prudence.
As for Amtrak, it looks to me that they did act prudently. They called the situation to the attention of the responsible party. I think we're in agreement that this verdict shouldn't stand.
I think we both agree that it's likely MBTA had the "banana peel" cases in mind...I personally would still want to fight it out and hope an appeals panel showed a little gumption and made new precedent...
I hope the new fence finally puts an end to this.
>>> As for Amtrak, it looks to me that they did act prudently. They called the situation to the attention of the responsible party <<<
Was it an Amtrak train that hit the girl? If so, had Amtrak warned its engineers about the problem of people on the tracks at that location? Did they require a reduction of speed because of the hazard? If the answers are yes, no and no, than calling the situation to the attention of the responsible party would not be enough to absolve them of all liability.
Calling the condition to MBTA's attention and doing nothing further, is similar to MBTA posting signs and doing nothing further when they are ignored.
Tom
We'll see if an appeals court agrees...I can only hope not.
The # 7 train has been designated a National Millenium Trail by the Smithsonian, which will be displaying a railcar from the line. This is an honor given to, among others, the Appalachian Trail, a Lewis and Clark trail, a composite Civil War trail (with no "start" or "end" of the "trail - comprises 500 sites !), and the Underground Railroad.
For the article, see below:
click here
The 7 line is listed at the National Millenium Trail site as the "International Express".
click here
-cordially,
turnstiles
I think these old deadbirds are giving fame to the 7 line. Even though they are all busted, I think we should at least keep a set for years to come.
"I think these old deadbirds are giving fame to the 7 line. "
On a national basis I think John Rocker gave it more fame then anything else.
Maybe (off his) Rocker should be forced to live in a Redbird for a while.
You say that like it's a bad thing... ;)
Thanks for posting these stories.
The original announcement was made, I believe, over a year ago, during the Clinton Administration. Hilary Clinton announced it and visited Queens. The New York Times and Newsday covered it and said federal funds would be made available to help spruce up the line with exhibits, artwork, etc., fitting for a Millenium Trail.
"Thanks for posting these stories.
The original announcement was made, I believe, over a year ago, during the Clinton Administration. Hilary Clinton
announced it and visited Queens. The New York Times and Newsday covered it and said federal funds would be made
available to help spruce up the line with exhibits, artwork, etc., fitting for a Millenium Trail."
Ron: Yes, they definitely were and I (evidently) missed those announcements. Full apologies.
Thanks for posting. Will look forward to more good postings from you, Ron.
-cordially,
turnstiles
No apologies needed. It's good to see progress being made with the 7 line.
So I'm sitting on this wreck of a consist of R/38's held together with duct tape and good intentions. We're at Rockaway Blvd. It's 5:05pm. The signs say Far Rockaway, but we're just sitting. Everone (passengers) is getting itchy to ride. The doors close, the doors open and stay open. We keep sitting there. The car starts to shake a little. It's the type of shake when another train is approaching. I cast a glance out of the trackside windows. A Giant Panda looking train is on the center track, K3/4, heading to the Pitkin yard if doesen't take the turn out before Hudson. The number boards read 8108-8101. There were two sets of four cars. On board SHARING the T/O cab were a couple of geeks. If they weren't getting paychecks from the NYCTA they'd be railfans. The consist continues on. We are still sitting, and the doors are still open. We begin to shake again, but only a little. Work diesel #72 goes past on K3/4 heading to the Pitkin yard. More time goes by. The doors close and again we shake some more, its a consist of r/44s coming from the Rockaways. We begin to move at last.
So, what are you doing?
avid
Sounds like they are getting ready to do the Rockaway Raunt with the R143s. Proving time.
I saw them broken up into two sets on the third track between Broad Channel and North Channel Bridge at about 4:40. Unlike the Dyre line, this test track does not provide opportunities for photo ops, so we must rely on the times when it is travelling between the yard and the test track, or when they pull it down to Broad channel and up to Howard Beach for lunch breaks (I guess, since when the R-142 was being tested down there it went to Howard Beach northbound "express" at around 12:30 and everyone got off and exited, they all came back a bit later).
In a recent Daily News Op-Ed, Local 100 President P. Troussant brought out an excellent point with regard to the TA's claim that they are unable to run the full G/R/V TPH due to a bottleneck at Forest Hills:
How was it done in the early to mid 70s, with EE, GG and N service?
The N replaced the EE in 1976, so there were only 2 locals. However, there is no reason why there couldn't be 3 lines there if the V would be extended to 179 as the local and the F stays on the express. It's just a lame excuse for laziness, if not ineptness.
Of course you are correct. The EE did replace the N.
I am curious about service levels on the Queens IND local back then.
In response to ItalianGuyinSI's question about service levels of the Queens Blvd Locals during the GG/N days that I can remember, here it is. In the AM rush approx 730A-830A, the N trains arrived every 4 mins. They alternated between Coney Island "N"'s and the rush Hr. "N"'s to Whitehall Street. They were packed all the way into Manhattan (Obviously!!), and the trains were predominantly made up of 8-car R-27-30 or 32 (occassionally r-46) consists. The GG's arrived about every 8-12 mins and emptied out at 74 St and Queens Plaza. Even passengers living east of 74 St used to wait for the "N" to try and get a seat all the way into Manhattan w/o transferring to the express E/F. I'm too young to remember the "EE" frequencies, but I assume that they ran at approx 4 min. headways during the height of the rush. And boy how nice it is to remember the BROADWAY EXPRESS SERVICE when the "N" was FAST and turned around at 57 ST!! I vaguely remember too many "QB" trains. There were probably 5 trains during the rush running at 10 minute headways!!! Tony
When the N was extended to 71/Continental in 1976, I remember the car assignments being mostly R46's. I'm not too sure about the Whitehall Street local service, but there may have been R27-30's in addition to the R-46's.
If you look at the pictures of this website, the N absorbed most of the EE fleet of R16's in 1976. Most remained operating out of Jamaica until the final retirement of the R7/R9 in early 1977.
According to the May 2001 New York ERA Division Bulletin, R16's 6300 through 6340 were transferred to the N on May 4, 1976, and were in service during rush hours. Considering the 8 car trains, there were 5 trains running.
I remember riding them a few times during school field trips and visits to the city. I don't remember seeing them after the August 29th, 1976 schedule change, when the N got all new R46's and the occasional R32 during rush hour.
I do remember seeing R16's still on the GG at this time. One time I transfered at Queens Plaza from the F, rode the GG down to Smith 9th, and got back on the same F that I got off at Queens Plaza.
Once the 16's disappeared from the GG, I think they all went over to the Eastern Division (J, LL), where they were run into the ground.
Since the extended N replaced the entire EE, I suppose the N needed more equipment allocated, and for it come from Jamaica, not Coney Island. That explains R16's on the N. Also, they were to be 5 Whitehall Street N's rush hours to replace the EE since all the other N's went over the bridge. The vestigal remains of it today are the several Astoria-Whitehall Street N's. Then the R16's went to the Eastern Divsion to replace the R6-R9's. It was at least the 6300's. I am not sure what happened to the 6400's. I have seen pictures of them in 1979 layed up in Rockaway Park in one of Grellers' books. They also got scrapped much sooner in the early 1980's, being the much-hated GE cars.
I believe the 6400's didn't make it past the summer of 83 - I remember seeing a string of them along the LIRR Bay Ridge branch near Linden Blvd.
At that point, the only time I saw an R16 was on the J or LL.
I had ridden on R16 RR and B trains as late as 1986, although they were rare sights on these lines.
By 1981, the only R-16's that I recall seeing in regular service were on the "LL" line (along with R-10's!!). There were a lot of "16"'s jsut sitting in the Fresh Pond Yard I remember. It wasn't until about 1983 that the R-16's were off the "LL" and strictly regulated to the "J" line (and every train was mismarked "JJ" or "QJ" since ther were no color "J" signs made). Before that, I remember the R-16's on the "EE" (those heaters under the seats that burned my fu--ing hand)!! That's it!!!!!! Tony
I saw the 16's on the J around Nov. '82 when a D was rerouted southbound through Essex & Nassau St. never knew such a thing existed, though I vaguely remembered from childhood seeing what looked like R-30's with transverse seats, but wasn't thinking about that at the time. I immediately noticed it at Broad by the sloping interior door panels, then ran across the car I was riding to look closer, and saw the seats and end doors (A BMT counterpart to the R-17, I had found!)
During the blizzard of '83 I saw one running on the M, which was all that was on the Brighton for a while.
It was in the mid '80s that I began seeing them on the L (often mixed), and when the D was running on Broadway, I would see them layed up at the Nassau Loop bumping blocks signed up as "RR".
My Sea Beach actually got something from the TA. What's the catch? What did they have to give up in exchange?
You mean the N replaced the EE. By the way, as I understand it,the original Broadway/Queens Blvd local letter code was something else before,[as planned with the route changes in 1967]what wasthe lines name to be? does anyone know?
Originally, it was to be "QB" (for "Queens-Broadway, as the old Q/QB/QT Bway-Brighton service was being totally eliminated). When it was decided to keep QB as a rush hour Bway-Brighton special, the Queens Broadway service was changed from "QB" to "QM" (Queens-Manhattan). Sometime after that, it was just decided to use "EE". I'm not sure why, though.
Originally, it was to be "QB" (for "Queens-Broadway, as the old Q/QB/QT Bway-Brighton service was being totally eliminated). When it was decided to keep QB as a rush hour Bway-Brighton special, the Queens Broadway service was changed from "QB" to "QM" (Queens-Manhattan). Sometime after that, it was just decided to use "EE". I'm not sure why, though.
No, actually it's a lame excuse for not having enough trainsets to get sufficient tph to make that a viable solution.
Dan
Why waste valuable resources running the G past Court Sq when nothing justifies it? Kudos to the TA for telling these whiners that they aren't gonna get their way.
Actually, with the new plan putting the "G" to Forest Hills at all other times than weekday middays and rush hours, it is an INCREASE of service.
Guess it works when your voices are loud and long. Well done to the protesters, for nothing should be accepted without compromise.
I believe the compromise is even worse than doing what the protesters want anyway.
I agree, IMO a waste of resources.
Arti
Here is the article, from Tuesday's News.
As has been posted, Toussaint is mistaken about the EE and N running together. He's also referring to a land long ago and far away, before the fleet slowdown.
[As has been posted, Toussaint is mistaken about the EE and N running together.]
By his position as TWU-100 president, he is in a position to know (and thus DOES know) that the EE and N never ran in Queens together. In other words, he isn't "mistaken" - he's flat-out LYING.
There, somebody finally said it.
BULLSHIT.
I say bullshit because you have absolutely no proof. I will bring this up at the next union meeting.
[...you have absolutely no proof.]
You weren't specific - "absolutely no proof" of what? Then again, let's figure it out by going back to what I originally said:
-----
1. By his position at TWU-100 president....
The union election made all of the newspapers, so I don't need to prove that he's the president.
-----
2. ...he is in a position to know (and therefore does know)....
Courts often deal with the issue of whether someone "knew or should have known" something, and have consistenty ruled that "should have known" (i.e. being in a position to know) and "knew" (i.e. actual knowledge) are legally equivalent. This usually crops up in cases of fraud.
The president of any organization has ready access to prior records, and thus is in a position to know what's in those records whether he/she looks at them or not.
-----
3. ...the EE and N never ran together on Queens Blvd....
Toussaint (or anyone else) had only to look at old subway maps, or check old RTO picks (since those operating positions were represented by TWU-100 at the time), or even visit nycsubway.org, to find the service patterns in question.
From November 1969 (?) to August 1976, the EE ran from Whitehall to Continental via local (weekdays only), while the N ran from Stillwell to 57th via Broadway Express and didn't touch Queens at all! In August 1976, the EE and N were combined into a single N route from Stillwell to Continental (with some Whitehall trips) via Queens local and variously Broadway local or express.
In other words, the N at one point REPLACED the EE in Queens, but never ran WITH the EE in Queens.
-----
To repeat, Toussant had ready access to all of this BEFORE writing his Op-Ed piece; whether he looked at it or not is irrelevant. His argument was NOT supported - and was actually REFUTED - by information to which he had direct access. Therefore, he was LYING.
There, I said it again.
All you've proven is that he was careless.
To be fair, the fact that a person has access to information and doesn't seek that information before he makes an incorrect statement, does not mean that he is lying. More appropriately:
He could be careless.
He could be incompetant.
He could not know the difference between fact and supposition.
He may be poorly advised.
One again, it's hard to know a person'd true intentions unless you really know the man. Do either of you know the man that well?
I happen to think that using the publics' lack of knowledge to further any organization's goals - is a very cynical practice.
[To be fair, the fact that a person has access to information and doesn't seek that information before he makes an incorrect statement does not mean that he is lying....]
Look at what happened to the big tobacco companies when they were found to have incriminating internal documents which refuted both their long-standing claims and their CEOs' Congressional testimony. Whether the executives had actually seen those documents is irrelevant; because the documents existed, the CEOs "should have known" about them, and thus were held liable for knowing and lying about them.
While Queens Blvd. subway service isn't of quite the same magnitude as the Big Tobacco issue, the same principle applies. Toussaint went on record, representing the union, with an accusation against Transit. Therefore, the burden of proving that accusation is on HIM, not on Transit. Not that this question will ever go to court, but any court would rule that Toussaint "should know" what's in the union's files, and thus DOES know, based on the simple fact that those files exist.
Absolutely. At this point, however, I think the new leadership of the TWU is trying to show that they are doing something other than the same 'stuff' the old guard did. To this point, without being specific, some of their forays have not had the desired results. Frankly, I think they are wrong about Queens Blvd. service and I think their efforts should be more member-centric. Do you think that Mr. Toussaint or his associates ever heard of Hertzberg or Maslow?
I doubt the flub was intentional; he probably relied on a somewhat faulty memory and put his article out without doing some simple fact-checking. Of course, citing the number of routes that run on a line is misleading, anyway, since it has nothing to do with the comboned tph of those routes.
Well Touissant's editorial isn't anything new. Even if the TA could assign enough people to handle switching duties (labor says yes; management says no), the fact is, the subway cars aren't there.
It doesn't matter whose fault it is. Until new subway cars come in, there's nothing the TA can do. End of discussion.
Touissant's piece, besides offering the standard labor diatribe (I'm not saying it's better or worse than management diatribe), helps by keeping the pressure up to increase the subway car fleet.
And, of course, it observes a proud New York tradition: Opinions are like like rear-ends - everyone has at least one, and each person thinks his (or hers) should be the only one.
Until new subway cars come in, there's nothing the TA can do.
They could have extended the G to Queens Plaza without requiring any additional cars or construction. There is at least one means that they could have reversed the cars in Queens Plaza without delaying any other services.
Of course such a solution would have required creative thinking on management's part and would not have required any additional managerial or union personnel to implement or operate. So it was a non-starter.
The EE and N never ran at the same time. The N replaced the EE in 1976.
As indicated in the other postings Roger Toussant has no idea about anything Transit. He is a political revolutionary from Haiti or one of the counties in that region where he spent jail time for trying to overthrow the government. All he done is found people who will listen to what he says and he tells them what he knows they want to hear. His biggest thing is supporting the local communities affected by service cuts. The people think he is their friend and he thinks that the community is behind him. Just wait until the latest contract is up for renewal, he will learn just how much NYC is behind him when he threatens a strike.
Anyway enough of my rant.
Since there have never, ever been 5 routes/lines operating on the Queens Blvd corridor in regular service at the same time I think the thought of it scares the hell of the TA's (so-called) engineers.
>>>>>>>>As indicated in the other postings Roger Toussant has no idea about anything Transit. He is a political revolutionary from Haiti or one of the counties in that region where he spent jail time for trying to overthrow the government. All he done is found people who will listen to what he says and he tells them what he knows they want to hear. His biggest thing is supporting the local communities affected by service cuts. The people think he is their friend and he thinks that the community is behind him. Just wait until the latest contract is up for renewal, he will learn just how much NYC is behind him when he threatens a strike.
Well if that isn't the biggest load of manure that I've seen in a long time.
Mr.Toussaint is the best thing to happen to the members of TWU-100 in a very long time. He's gotten the members involved and believing that things can be done to make Transit a better place to work. And he's not afraid to stand up to Transit whenever he disagrees with something. This man has been through the ringer more times than I could certainly go through that's for sure.
Overthrow the government? Please. He was a political activist while he was a student in Haiti. And if he was just trying to say things that people would hear, then why in the world would he get fired from Transit mainly because of his activism with New Directions?
As a passenger, you seem scared that he will cause a strike. Maybe he will. But he's also trying to look out for the daily ridership by fighting against service cuts and fighting for safety concerns. A contract comes up once every three years. Service cuts have a more lasting DAILY effect.
And if you are thinking that "He's just saying this to protect his members jobs", well that's what he's supposed to do. But all of the membership will still collect their paychecks as there is always enough work to go around.
So far Toussaint's actions have spoken a lot more than his words. I support Roger Toussaint 100%.
I've also found his personal support of the BOs so early in his tour of duty very interesting. At the "privates" he's been part of negotiations, vs. sending a underling, he even attended a recent retirement dinner at QSC with his lovely wife. As someone in management, maybe I would prefer he had stayed away, but I've found his envolvement very interesting in any case. I've also spoken with some of the TWU officials here & found out that he doesn't talk down to them ... it's not what I would have expected based on the yada yada yada surrounding the recent election. Have you heard that some of those who were on the "other" side are now in management ?
Mr t__:^)
>>>Have you heard that some of those who were on the "other" side are now in management ? <<<
Yes, and I've also heard that some from the other side, most noteworthy being Mr James, were "kicked upstairs" and now have jobs with the international. I do not know which is worse.
Peace,
ANDEE
>>>>Yes, and I've also heard that some from the other side, most noteworthy being Mr James, were "kicked upstairs" and now have jobs with the international
Correct except for Willie James. He has not received a position with the International. Mr. James and Sonny Hall (Intl.Pres.) do not get along.
But, then why do I see Willy James' listed as int'l vice-president on the "masthead" of the TWU paper.
Peace,
ANDEE
He was asked to resign the post. The Union is currently attempting to eradicate the former regime from their intl. posts. It made headlines in The Chief last week.
Even though they are still listed as Vice Presidents, it is in title only. No duties are assigned to them.
Yes I have heard. Could you imagine what could have happened if the old regime had stayed in power?
I'm sure that all the people that voted for James/Seda in the past are kicking themselves.
For obvious reasons I'd like to stay away from a discussion about whether Mr. Toussaint is good for the TWU membership or not, However, I wold like the your feelings about:
1) The results of the recent 'court' action that forced the C/Rs to pick over.
2) Roger Toussaint hiring people who have been fired from the TA for making racist comments & threats.
3) The fact that the TWU local 100 is involved in 'political' issues in North Carolina and Pennsylvania that have nothing to do with labor/management or job security.
On your first question it seems like he did the right thing. He challenged the TA in court and won. (That is what a union is supposed to do for it's members).
Unfortunatly this country is becoming so "polictally correct" that almost everything can be considered some sort of harrassment (racially or sexually or any other) but freedom of speech is a fundemental right in this country. As for people like that being in a position of some power I don't think they belong because most people of intelligence would not make those comments on the record. (we have all said some berating comments at one time or another)
As far as your third point I have no knowledge of such actions and can not and will not comment until further informed.
In a business enviornment both side have to conduct themselves in a particular way ... jokes about ones race, appearance are just as wrong as racist comments or threats. The "company" is leagaly bound to treat both seriously, and deal out the proper punishment/discipline.
When I worked of Pan Am any physical exchange between ANY two parties resulted in both being fired ... the company didn't care who threw the first punch or what provoked it ... PERIOD. Everybody knew that, so a little yelling might occur on the shop floor, but one would always walk away to save both their jobs.
The balance of power needs to be maintained for the syatem to work, so just because the TWU head is black doesn't mean that the black brothers & sister can get away with what ever they want. In the case sighted before maybe the previous TWU head didn't fight the case as hard as he should of, and maybe the incident didn't warrent the employee being fired. I see nothing wrong with a employee getting his/her job back for a wrongfull action on the part of the company.
Again sighting a Pan AM example ... if you screwed around with the time clock in any way or gave/sold you flight benifit to a non authorized family member ... you were fired ... PERIOD.
Mr t__:^)
well just keep all your praise in mind when the next contrg again.act comes up. At the first sign of trouble your "beloved" union president will
vanish leaving you all in the lurch.
Darn - I am ranting again. Just be glad bank employees are not permitted by Federal law to unionize. Imagine if we went on strike. We could shut the entire country down.
>>>>At the first sign of trouble your "beloved" union president will
vanish leaving you all in the lurch
We'll see by December 15, 2002. So far, he's doing the best job of any TWU leader in the past 15 years at least. For the first time since I was hired by the TA, the membership is visibly starting to build confidence in the union.
I DON'T want to strike, but I don't want to get stepped on by management either.
>>Just be glad bank employees are not permitted by federal law unionize. Imagine if we went on strike. We could shut the entire country down.<<
So are you saying that bank employees do not have rights? My mother works for a bank, and she gets treated like crap. At least with a union, she would have more rights. And one more thing, banks pay very cheap. Look at all of the mergers and layoffs that happen with banks. If banks get any bigger, then I think that the employees have every right to unionize in order to protect themselves.
>>> Just be glad bank employees are not permitted by Federal law to unionize. <<<
What law is that? I just did a quick search of Title 12 of the United States Code and was unable to find any such law.
Tom
The TA should have a site for their TO and CR's. So we can look up our work programs, timetables, supplements, bulletins or any GO's. Plus they should have a way for use to go to a site that we can put out pass number in and get our job numbers and RDO's. Where we can download all type of forms. This would make life so much easlier for us. Does anyone agree or am I just looking for to much from TA (RTO)
I agree. If institutes of higher learning are able to let students register for courses via telephone service, the TA should be able to introduce the same concept.The college I attend has a list of classes available on the internet along with the number of seats left in a particular section. The TA could post jobs that are open on each line, along with the number of RDO spots available(for example, as of 1425 hrs, 13 S/S RDO'S are left on the p.m. tour in the north section).They could apply this to every set of RDO's.
Just a thought that'll cheese some off, but since picks are a union thing, perhaps TWU 100 might want to pick up where the railroad left off ... in fact if the union were to provide this, I could see MTA wigs wanting to do it. Funny the things that motivate. :)
My friends sad that this would not be that hard to do. Everything is already on computer some were in the TA system. He sad that there are programe that will let us put our pass numbers and some sort of pass word in the out computer and got out jobs, the pay of the job and even the time the jobs leave each termals and more. If someone could just get all this info from the TA then it can be done. This also can be used for B/O and any other jobs that are time bast.
Robert
And the union going through that data would be JUST the kick in the slats to make RTO interested in doing it themselves. :)
I agree with you 100% but thats asking too much from TA. It would make our lives easier.
It would be nice if we where able to look at work programs for both Divisons at the terminals. This way you can decide if you want to change up.
I'm a C/R on the A Div. and I'm thinking about making a move to the B Div. because it would be a change for me. I am thinking about the A,C,B,D,and N Lines.
Heres a question for the B Div train crews.
What is the last line to go in the B Div. pick?
I was just watching channel 7 new and they show the car going to DC, it was not an R33wf. The car number was 9069. I guest most people won't know the different anyway.
Robert
9069? What? They divorced a married pair? @&$^!!!
Anyone know how the car in question is travelling to DC?
-Stef
By flatbed truck. Only the car body is being shipped and not the under-components.
Flatbed.
Once the festival is over, it sounds like the car is going to be retired. Other than that other set that may have been retired, it sounds like we have our first retirement.
9069 is an R33, but there is a picture in today's Daily News showing the car being shipped through upper Manhattan, and it's car 9056---an R33 Mainline. This is going to represent the Flushing Line???
A R33 from the 2 line. Well, soon to be ex R33 from the 2 line as the R33's are making their way back to the 5 line after a few years hiatus.
It is strange they did not choose an actual #7 car , a R36. When the Yankees had their parade last year, they used and actual R62 to run up Broaway.
Since the R33WF cars aren't used in the summer anyway due to lack of AC, why couldn't they just send one on holiday to DC and let all the others to their thing on the 7? Someone should protest this.
My mistake about not being an R33. I ment to say not and R33WF.
Robert
Here is another track question(my father asked one and i asking the other-thanking you guys for your help before)
1-the local tracks at the 168th Street station-they go upward after leaving the station Northbound-were they headed to GWB?
2-the tracks outside of Church Avenue on the "F" line towardss Coney Island-do the tracks going lower go anywhere?
3-the extra track outside the 4th Avenue station on the "F" line-any direction?
1) The tracks at 168 Street are relay tracks. The "C" uses them to put them from the north side platform to the south side platform.
2)The tracks doing lower gose into some layup tracks. The TA dose not use them for this any more. They do get used to trun trains around if something happened going to Coney Island.
3) I don't know.
Robert
1) Still, I did hear there was once an idea to extend them over the bridge, which ws built to accomodate them.
2) They are supposed to start using them to store some G trains, that is if they are still going to use Coney Island based equipment instead of Jamaica.
The lower level of the GWB was originally designed to carry subway trains.
No it wasn't.
The GWB was originally built with only one level, but with provisions to add a second level, potentially for rail use.
In fact, when the lower level was built, it was built to carry more cars and trucks, in conjunction with the Trans-Manhattan Expressway and the Alexander Hamilton Bridge.
I read somewhere that a subway connection was supposed to go to Jersey over the GWB, but the plans were changed by that lovable friend of highways, Robert Moses. The way that the tracks are configured at 168th St. station on the A seem to back this up. The local tracks, which at that station are in the middle instead of the outside and now used by the C, were supposed to go over the bridge, but that never came to light.
There were plans to possibly extend the IND over the GWB. I don't think they ever got beyond the "possibly" stage.
Robert Moses was very much behind the entire GWB lower level - Trans-Manhattan Expressway - Alexander Hamilton Bridge - Cross Bronx Expressway megaproject, and he certainly wasn't going to allow an idea for improved train service to get in the way of his highways. If anything, the GWB has too many lanes now.
The tracks switch places at 168th simply so the local can relay without interfering with the express. The north end of the Concourse line has a similar arrangement for the same reason. The IRT and BMT didn't bother with such shenanigans, and as a result they have expresses terminating before locals (D vs. Q, 3 vs. 4, 57th Street BMT local vs. express), etc. The IND arrangement is far superior.
"3-the extra track outside the 4th Avenue station on the "F" line-any direction?"
If you're talking about that track between 4th Ave and Smith-9th Sts, it goes under the structure and dead ends. Don't know it was built there, doesn't seem to be used.
Bill "Newkirk"
They used to store G trains there in the pocket track between 4th Avenue and Smith-9th Street.
These are all relay tracks that can be used to turn back a train.
Look for the track maps section of the main nycsubway.org site.
You'll find all the diagrams you need there.
2- that is a great lay up to hang around. I will be giving a Jinx related tour of that lay up. E-mail if interested.
1. These tracks do serve as relay tracks for the C (and sometimes the A and B during G.O.s), but they extend further north to an area known as 174th Yard where some R32/R38 C trains are stored.
2. These are also relay tracks that can be used to turn trains (most notably, the G comes here when it cannot relay at Fourth Avenue due to a G.O.), but they also extend to an area (Church Avenue Yard) where up to four trains can be stored.
3. This track descends below the other four tracks and dead ends with a bumper block at the end of the track. It is considered a spur track and is used to turn trains in cases of extreme emergencies only.
Spiffy! You'll be up front b4 ya know it.
I'm still waiting, Z. My wildest dream is to be given a nice shiny chrome brake handle, reverser, and cutting key and take my place up at the front. Then I wake up and reality sets in. Time to move it to the middle. :-)
By the way, my Sunday train operator is still having nightmares from the last time you were at Euclid. Maybe you could come back soon and finish the job you started at the dominoes table. LOL
>>>>My wildest dream is to be given a nice shiny chrome brake handle, reverser, and cutting key and take my place up at the front.
Pieces of paper with pictures of Hamilton & Jackson may help your dream come true (hint-hint-nudge-nudge).
And I really do not mind administering frequent beatings on the domino table. That game where we jumped all over him and he was only able to get off his first bone was a classic.
Hope to be back soon, definitely at the start of next pick at the latest.
I'm looking forward to seeing you, my friend. I'm going to try and hold it down 'til you get here. :-)
I've seen maps where there was a projected Fort Hamilton Parkway line branching southwest from the IND at Church Avenue. I'd always assumed that the Church Layups were for that, or some other "second-system" venture.
This might have been before unification and recapture was in full gear. That may have been done if unification didn't come about, and the money was there.
I am guessing your map is dated 1929-1932.
It's actually the inside back cover of "the Subway"
If only it were true!
OH, this book I know very well.
If we did not have the Depression, I believe we would have had an excellent SECOND IND system in addition to the original IND.
Shame.
Much of it was wasteful anway. Only certain lines would've actually brought subway service to areas which had never seen it, like southeastern Queens, Maspeth/Glendale, southeastern Brooklyn in addition to another east side trunk line.
I just made this track map (PDF format) of the City Subway Extension from Branch Brook park (Franklin Ave) to the new facility. CSX (ex EL) actually crosses on and over the subway tracks in order to get past them. The freight train route merges onto the northbound subway tracks up around Franklin Ave. and travels along those tracks to where the Spring Lake Station is and then crosses over to the southbound subway tracks. It travels along those up until after Bloomfield Ave. and it enters the facility property. There the freight line splits from the subway and goes along its merry way west. Check out the map!
Newark City Subway Extension Track Map
(Adobe Acrobat Reader required)
--------------------
-Dan
New York Area Railroads
--------------------
That's a great map Dan, thanks for posting it.
-Dave
NJ Transit's Website indicates that this extension is not in service yet. When will service begin on the extension?
Rumors abound. NJT's missed several target dates already. It seems that they aren't opening the extension until they retire the PCCs. Of course they can't retire the PCCs yet because the replacements have cab signaling, which requires wayside equipment that has to be installed from one end of the route to the other.
The new trains could simply run without cab signalling until the system is installed.
And they can't open the extension until the new equipment is used, since the PCCs need a loop and the new terminal will not have one.
Good point about the lack of a loop. If it's not the cab signals they're waiting on, have you heard any other explanation for not switching over to the new cars?
I just made this track map (PDF format) of the City Subway Extension from Branch Brook park (Franklin Ave) to the new facility. CSX (ex EL) actually crosses on and over the subway tracks in order to get past them. The freight train route merges onto the northbound subway tracks up around Franklin Ave. and travels along those tracks to where the Spring Lake Station is and then crosses over to the southbound subway tracks. It travels along those up until after Bloomfield Ave. and it enters the facility property. There the freight line splits from the subway and goes along its merry way west. Check out the map!
Does the shared trackage mean that the City Subway cars have to meet FRA standards?
[Does the shared trackage mean that the City Subway cars have to meet FRA standards?]
As you may have seen, although CSX uses subway tracks, the route does not pass next to any station. the Interlocking between the two tracks at spring lake are situated such that the station platforms are avoided. For some reason, this allows the city subway not to come under FRA regulations.
-Dan
IIRC, the Newark City Subway is not a 24/7 operation. It has "always" closed down for a few hours every night. I believe that time separation between freight use and LRV use is the factor that allows this connection
The subway doesn't cross Bloomfield Ave where you have it, thats Belmont Ave, sorry to nitpick.
Mike
"Mr Mass Transit"
The Subway doesn't cross Bloomfield Avenue at all, does it?
Yes it does, just not there (as far as I know from I know from I know mass transit).
Well if you want to be technical of course it does, just under it at the Bloomfield Ave. Subway Station.
Mike
"Mr Mass Transit"
You're right. I was thinking about the area of the extension and forgot about the part of Bloomfield nearer Branch Brook Park.
No problem with the street name, I have to change the map anyway. Where I noted as "Spring Lake Sta." is really "Silver Lake Sta.". I made this on Adobe Illustrator on a computer in school, so I'll post a new version soon.
-Dan
To all those I promised the car assignment matrix:
I've had a melt-down of my scanner. Actually the SCSI card went bad. I finally got a new one today but will likely not have a chance to install it until I return from AMERICADE. I will send them out ASAP.
TD
No sweat TD. Thanks for putting forth the effort to give everybody the assignments.
Have a blast ... the weather's going to be dandy up in Lake George this year ... you'll be blowing right past Voorheesville when the Thruway becomes the Oliver Northway at exit 25 ...
Makes me wish I'd never ditched the Norton Commando 850 years ago ...
You mean exit 24, at the Thruway interchange,right? Exit 25 is Interstate 890,Route 146 and Route 7. 24 is where the Thruway changes,from I 87 north to I 90 west,and of course the Northway going [where else?] north. HAVE A NICE TRIP AND ENJOY YOUR SELF T.D.
Perhaps you can answer my one question. With the split service overlapping, doesn't the TA require more cars? You'll have two sets of express trains from 3th Street to 59th rather than one, plus more trains waiting to turn around.
If so, where are the cars coming from?
Thanks Train Dude. Take your time.
Why is it that Pantographs don't work with With trolley wire?
By definition, pans are used on catenary or as they say in Europe, the overhead line. Modern catenary is constant-tension, wheras trolley wire is variable tension. Pans theoretically will work with trolley wire, but it is very inefficient. At speed, pans will most likely lose contact with and tear down trolley wire.
There's another reason. Pantographs cannot be used with standard hangers used for trolley pole operations. The hangers protrude below the span wire, particularly on curves.
DaWheelFlange is partially incorrect about variable and constant tension on trolley wire. Pans are used on both. The PRR/NH/Amtrak catenary is constant tension. The extension to Boston is modern variable tension catenary. The Baltimore Light Rail uses variable tension everywhere except the portion between North Avenue and Camden Yards, when constant tension catenary is used.
The MBTA ran pantographs and trolley poles on the same wire. SF Muni still does. The only things that have to be done is that adapters have to be used with trolley frogs that carry the pans below the frog and allow poles to track as usual and the wire must be tight, with no sags that could possibly sang a pan.
Another difference is trolley wire is generally strung over the centerline of the track, where catenary will zigzag slightly left to right over the tracks. This is so the pan contacts will wear evenly. If you ran a pan over conventional wire over a fairly short period, the contacts will have a nice groove machined into them.
How does variable tension work? The catenary on the extension is
counterweighted. Doesn't that produce constant tension>
The reason pantographs dont work on trolley wire is
more the engineering of the way trolley wire and catenary wire are "strung"
TROLLEY WIRE Carrying the power voltage (usually
600 volts DC) is Hung from the "span" wire
(the wire crossing the trackway from pole to pole
and insulated by insulators from the trolley "hot'
WIRE - by what are called 'WIRE EARS' or "hangers"
which look like a plus ( + ) sign; The "span"
wires connect to the "ears' of the hanger like the
dashlines I drew connect to the plus sign - see
here>>> H--------+----------H The POLES are are shown by those two letters "H" and the top of the trolley wire contacts the bottom of the hanger (+) at the center. I HOPE THIS DOESNT GET SCRAMBLED when I post it as some type lines do!! The space between the trolley HOT wire and the cross (SPAN) wire is very shallow due to the "Hanger" casting size - and on curves - especially sharp curves - trolley wire is not centered between the rails as on straight track, but moved closer to the inside rail of the curve to compensate for pole lean and swing - and a pantograph shoe's ability to tilt up and down from left to right - and riding very off center on the curved trolley wire - could have one of its shoe edges actually snag the cross (SPAN) wires and - you guessed it, tear the overhead down and mangle the
pantograph upright assembly
That is why catenary is strung differently - mainly for very high speed and designed to carry high voltages (3000 + volts) over very long distances - and to provide much more clearance for the widthh of the pantograph contact shoe to clear the Trolley (Hot) wire hanger asembly. Catenary systems have a "messenger" above and following the hot wire in the
same line see here on this illustration MESSENGER----+----------------+----WIRE(S)
CATENARY____T__________T____WIRE(S)
PANTOGRAPH SHOE T (rides under wire here)
The above view is looking broadside across the track
with the + signs showing the hanger ear with the
messenger wire attached and the letter T immediately
below the + sign represents the connection bar/bracket connecting the hanger (+) to top of the
hot catenary (trolley) wire to keep the trolley hot
wire in constant alignment, tension & position
with its means of anchorage to lineside poles - the
messenger or structural-supporting link-(wire).
The letter "T" at the center of the drawing represents the side view of the PANTOGRAPH sliding
along the hot (power) wire. SUMMARY - the pantograph shoe slides along the catenary wire far below the above cross (span) wires where they attach to the messneger wire "hanger ears" - and that allows for off-center wire spacing on sharp curves
whch will allow the pantograph plenty of oscillation
movement and freedom from being fouled by cross-span wire construction and hardware. By the way. the
support poles for the illustration above are not shown, but would be on each side of the track(s) in
line with each + (sign) on the messenger wire - the
lineside poles being connected to each other obviously by the cross (span) wires from which the
messenger and its tethered trolley (hot) wire are
hung. Hope this answers your question(s) - I tried to make it simple enough with the illustrations.
NOTE: Trolley POLES will work on forms of what is
called "light catenary" construction as used on the
North Shore and LVT interburban high-speed intercity
"trolley pole" operated lines - at some locations on
their various routes!!
Regards - Joseph Frank - NYCMTS EL
Actually, that doesn't answer my question at all! I was merely
asking about the difference between constant and variable tension
catenary systems. I am very familiar with how trolley wire is
hung as I've done some of that, at 1:1 scale.
OK Jeff - I will lookup my prototype data sheets on Pennsy and New Haven catenary and also trolley wire
applications to see what is related to maintaining
constant tension as well as variables for severe
weather (cold and hot) weather temperatures - give me a few days to dig it out of my archives in the catecombs -I know tha pantographs need the stiff
double-hung wire per my bottom illustration (previous post) because pantographs exhert more upward pressure than trolley poles and also
the contact plate - shoe is subject to air-foil
wind effects (like a small airplane wing) that can
increase upward pressure to the wire at very high
running speeds and conversely extreme high winds
facing the (blowing toward) the pantograph as it
operatesinto the high winds at speed has been known
to cause pantograph to depress and rise (flutter
uo OR down (ie bounce) off and on the wire.
Trolley wire by nature is more slack re; ear to ear tension (pole to pole span wires and span to span
-wire over the tracks) - and warmer weather causes some noticeable sags (in Phily anyway - we see it all the time on steetcar routes) and the t-pole actually pushes the wire UPWARD at the low
-sag-points between span wires. Pantographs operating under those "soft" wire conditions as you well know -would have more drastic effects than a simple wire-guided trolley pole wheel or carbon shoe
Your vague question as posed doesnt explain why you
want to know - so it is uncertain as to answer your
question as to what you need to know - if I can help - get back to me - Regards - JOE F
PS in l:l scale did you do work on museum overhead, or prototype transit or mainline railroad wire?
Oh so the wire will snap so that's why they need to modify the wire!
They do:
Hey thats a double arm Pantograph Not a trolley pole!
[Hey thats a double arm Pantograph Not a trolley pole! ]
Does this answer your question?
Arti
>>> Hey thats a double arm Pantograph Not a trolley pole! <<<
Keen observation. Nothing gets by you!
Tom
Don't The SEPTA Suburban K-cars use regular trolley wire, and aren't they fitted with pantographs? I guess that would be an anomoly.
When the K-cars were first recieved and we in the testing and inital revenue operation phase they were in mixed service with the older equipment. The wire was slightly modified for the pans, with adapters on the trolley frogs, but other than selective tightening of the trollley wire nothing was done. Once all the K-cars were received, the wire was re-hung for pans only. Since 1982 all the overhead has been totally replaced.
But they can. The best example of this is in Russia, where trolley poles were never used in over 100 years of operation. The overhead system in Moscow, for example, is a mix of catenary (variable tension), and some trolley wire. The streetcars use pantographs (full ones as :<>, which are more rigid than the half-pantographs used in the US: <).
This same idea can also be seen on the HBLR, on the street-running portion on essex street, where ther is only one wire per track. The main problem with trolley wire is the clearances around the hangers, which are all right for poles but not for pantographs.
The rebuilt turboliner that appeared in Milwaukee last month was in Rensselear yesterday waiting for a trip back to Super Steel Schenectady for additional work. Start-of-service date is now pushed back to July.
Story in Wednesday's Times Union
How aboud they forget about the turboliners and create Talgoliners.
Why not just stop trying to persue a dead end technology and finally get on with mainline electrification, which has a proven record of sucess. Gas turbines aren't made or suited for rail pplications. It's that simple.
Gas turbines aren't made or suited for rail pplications.
Why not?
IIRC, The original Turboliners were French RTG units.
They were successful in France and the technology
was applied to the very first TGV experimental unit.
That original Gas turbine TGV marked speeds over 300kph
and itself was a success. I think it was the cost of fuel
that eventually lead to go back to electricity.
Maybe this is not what Philip meant, though...
That may have been true in the 1950's. You may recall Krause-Maffei's gas turbine locomotive, which proved a headache to maintain due to the turbine blades' fouling by the fuel used: Bunker-C oil.
Perhaps you could look at this with more of an open mind. The M-1 battle tank proved gas turbines can be highly successful even under difficult conditions (like desert sand and heavy smoke). Granted, the Army had more intense maintenance on these vehicles at the time. But 1,900 went into battle, driving across the sand at 50 mph, with an extremely low breakdown rate (single digit percentages at most).
The tweaking Amtrak has had to do sounds no worse (and probably better) than the work that Acela needed. Further, if you read the article closely, you could reasonably conclude that the delays are mostly political, not technical. CSX is gumming up the work more than the locomotives, and by the time CSX comes around, the locos will be ready.
/*That may have been true in the 1950's. You may recall Krause-Maffei's gas turbine locomotive, which proved a headache to maintain due to the turbine blades' fouling by the fuel used: Bunker-C oil.*/
The UP turbines were semi sucessful, but their turbine design was very inefficient.
/*Perhaps you could look at this with more of an open mind. The M-1 battle tank proved gas turbines can be highly successful even under difficult conditions (like desert sand and heavy smoke). Granted, the Army had more intense maintenance on these vehicles at the time.*/
Millitary applications are very different from comercial. In the millitary, you have, and can afford to have, maintenance staff tending over stuff 24/7. Not to mention fuel consumprion is a non issue.
/*But 1,900 went into battle, driving across the sand at 50 mph, with an extremely low breakdown rate (single digit percentages at most). */
But tanks aren't trains. Also see above.
/*The tweaking Amtrak has had to do sounds no worse (and probably better) than the work that Acela needed.*/
The work Acela needed needed wasn't tweaking, it was major. But excepted from the excessive weight of the equipment.
Gas turbines are fragile things that don't like high vibration high dirt environments. They suck fuel all the time, and are a bear to maintain. Amtrak simply doesn't have the ability to maintain them. They're not like diesels where you can wack things with a hammer and "make it work". Ingestion of dirt will corrode the compressor blades, rocks will *destroy* them, overspeeding from a suddenly dropped load can destroy an engine, the broad band virbration of railcars will kill most turbines (Pratt had huge problems shipping aircraft engines by rail because of this). And rebuilds aren't cheap.
Gas turbines have never seen widespread rail use because they're simply not suited for it. Once cost of maintenance, fuel use, noise, exhaust temperature, etc get factored in, they're not worth it. Sure they're high power low weight. So is electrification, and electrification is much more proven.
I don't understand the Dot's facsination with gas turbines.
"Gas turbines are fragile things that don't like high vibration high dirt environments. They suck fuel all the time, and are a bear to maintain."
Companies like GE and Lycoming have made huge strides in increasing reliability. I don't know what's under the hoods of the new locos in Albany, so I can't make a comparison.
" Amtrak simply doesn't have the ability to maintain them."
That's a reasonable fear. Amtrak must decide to devote, and have the resources to devote, enough attention to this to make it work.
"They're not like diesels where you can wack things with a hammer and "make it work". Ingestion of dirt will corrode the compressor blades, rocks will *destroy* them, overspeeding from a suddenly dropped load can destroy an engine, the broad band virbration of railcars will kill most turbines (Pratt had huge problems shipping aircraft engines by rail because of this). And rebuilds aren't cheap."
In fairness, we need to update you on the latest in turbine technology. GE, for example, now molds turbine blades using a highly corrosion resistant steel alloy. Further, the blades are "grown" in the mold, each forming a single crystal. That means no fissures or other physical imperfections. That kind of turbine can run for years without a problem, and can take abuse you would not expect the average jet engine to take.
I favor electrification too, by the way. I think it wins hands down, because all of the locomotive is devoted to traction. A diesel engine is dead weight that the loco has to haul along with the cars (of course something has to spin the generator, now, doesn't it?). But I am not opposed to a fair trial of turbo-trains, because of a) the advances in gas turbine design I have described b) political obstacles which may prevent use of electrified lines to Albany.
The best a diesel can do is about 100 mph - not bad, but hauling a string of cars that's going to eat gas, too, if only because it's fighting wind resistance. I want to see what happens when a loco with a much higher power-to-weight ratio gets a chance. It's worth a trial.
/*Companies like GE and Lycoming have made huge strides in increasing reliability. I don't know what's under the hoods of the new locos in Albany, so I can't make a comparison. */
Likely either a Pratt Canada, GE, or Allied, or other small turboshaft. There are a few turboshaft makers. As far as reliability, an aviation environment is *much* different from a rail one.
/*That's a reasonable fear. Amtrak must decide to devote, and have the resources to devote, enough attention to this to make it work. */
It's going to take either imported helicopter mechanics, or a hell of a trainning program to get amtrak up to speed on turbine maintenance. Or subcontracting it out. but that's messy too.
/*In fairness, we need to update you on the latest in turbine technology. GE, for example, now molds turbine blades using a highly corrosion resistant steel alloy.*/
Steel alloy turbine blades are acient tech. Today it's nickel alloys with air cooling holes and ceramic thermal barrier coatings. Turbine discs might still be steel, but the blades aren't in most mid/high thurst engines.
/* Further, the blades are "grown" in the mold, each forming a single crystal. That means no fissures or other physical imperfections.*/
Single crystal growth isn't cheap, and it's not perfect. The defect that caused the engine on the Sioux City DC-10 to come apart was ultimately believed to be exiting from the date of manufacture.
Gas turbine engines are mondo expensive, period.
/* That kind of turbine can run for years without a problem, and can take abuse you would not expect the average jet engine to take. */
Most modern jet engines run with their turbine blades exposed to temperatures above the first phase change of the blade material, and rely on barrier coatings and air cooling to keep the blades from deforming. FOD ingestion is *still* a problem, compressor blade errosion *still* occurs, and engine *still* fail.
Further, the cutting edge in turbines is naturally very expensive. And hasn't really trickled down to the turboshaft world. GE and Pratt put their development into millitary (Pratt) and higher thrust comercial (GE), because that's where the $$$ is.
Anyway, most of the big advances happened decades ago. I don't think the reliability of an aircraft adapted turboshaft in a railcar is going to be much higher today, and it's fuel consumption is going to be barely better. And the issues of noise, exhaust heat, safety, and operational failure still exist.
/*But I am not opposed to a fair trial of turbo-trains, because of a) the advances in gas turbine design I have described */
Turbines have gotten numerous fair trials, and every time they've come up empty handed. They don't work for rail applications. This is plainly obvious to everyone but the US DOT, FRA and amtrak.
/*b) political obstacles which may prevent use of electrified lines to Albany. */
The big obsticale to electrification, IMHO, is the FRA's unwillingness to admit that it's the best system for HSR, and can all the worthless diesel and turbine experiments.
/*The best a diesel can do is about 100 mph - not bad, but hauling a string of cars that's going to eat gas, too,*/
US style diesels are still stuck in the 50's, compaired to modern ones overseas, which are lighter. But then, the passenger cars that US diesels haul are stuck with an 1800's style body riding on 30's vintage trucks, with 50's vintage costruction, 70's vintage interiors, and 80's vintage operating attitudes.
/*I want to see what happens when a loco with a much higher power-to-weight ratio gets a chance.*/
You get an AEM-7, which still has the highest power - weight ratio in the US I believe.
As I said before, I prefer electric over other means for rail, and you're right, the AEM-7 is head and shoulders above the other units. Of course, when all the power generation is taken care of for the loco, all the loco has to do is apply it to the rail - makes sense.
Some of your arguments about FRA may be justified. However, in fairness, I should point out to you that American trains are safer than European trains. You may not like FRA, but it is because of FRA standards that an Acela crash will result in mostly minor injuries, with some serious and the possibility of a fatality or two; try the same crash on a European high-speed train and you're going to be bringing it body bags by the truckload. Part of the reason for that is the lighter weight of European trains. I'm not willing to sacrifice safety margins like that; with our litigious society, Amtrak would be foolish to contemplate it.
As far as gas turbines go: Thank you for updating me on some technology!
The failure of a turbine component that you cite is unfortunate. But remember that that was one case. The rate of failure of turbines in commercial aircraft use is so low that the manufacturing approach has clearly and unequivocally been an outstanding success. Also,please note the correct use of "single crystal" technology includes discarding any blade which comes out of the factory with any kind of defect. If it isn't perfect, you toss it and get another one.
I don't know that you can point to the FRA as the root of the problem. You are aware, I'm sure, of how NIMBY rears its ugly head whenever a railroad wants to put up catenary wire. That is likely to be a factor here, as it would anywhere else (I'm not condoning it, mind you). But, the fact is, whatever the political situation is, you still have to deal with it. If you can't electrify Albany-NY in the near future (and you can't), you try something else. Amtrak is doing that.
In the meantime, if you are affected by this decision, because you or your pals use the train or want to use it, you can write to your elected officials, to Amtrak, to the FRA, and voice your opinions on the subject. Undoubtedly you will learn more about their positions if you do so, and can then decide how next to proceed about persuading them to change.
/*As I said before, I prefer electric over other means for rail, and you're right, the AEM-7 is head and shoulders above the other units. Of course, when all the power generation is taken care of for the loco, all the loco has to do is apply it to the rail - makes sense. */
And in HSR, power:weight is all that matters. You don't get points for where it comes from. There are no 6000 (rail) hp diesels in the world, and none that weigh 80 tons.
/*Some of your arguments about FRA may be justified. However, in fairness, I should point out to you that American trains are safer than European trains.*/
How so? AFAIK, the accident rates for the US and Europe are almost identical. the difference is, their equipment is an order of magnitude cheaper to buy and run.
/*( You may not like FRA, but it is because of FRA standards that an Acela crsh will result in mostly minor injuries, with some serious and the possibility of a fatality or two; try the same crash on a European high-speed train and you're going to be bringing it body bags by the truckload.*/
That's entirely based on computer models and guesswork. according to computer models and guess work, the Leaning Tower of Piza should have fallen over years ago (it disn't), Miami have below standard air (it doesn't), Oxygen tanks on the Apollo misasions shouldn't have blown up (they did), the DC-10 shouldn't crash so much (it does), the 737's rudders are perfect (they aren't)
In more than one math book I've seen, one statement is useually bolded and sepperate from everthing else:
A computer model is not reality
In other words, it's a fart in the wind guess. Only an identical side by side test between two designs will show the worth of them, and such testing wasn't done with Acela, or they never would have gone with an overweight articulated design.
/*Part of the reason for that is the lighter weight of European trains. I'm not willing to sacrifice safety margins like that; with our litigious society, Amtrak would be foolish to contemplate it. */
And yet the run the Talgos, which are perhaps the lightest trans in use anywhere. Light weight means nothing about strength - there are plenty of light structures that are more than strong (take your average airliner).
/*As far as gas turbines go: Thank you for updating me on some technology! */
I could have gone on a bit more. Almost nobody uses steel in gas turbines of any real size anymore.
/*The failure of a turbine component that you cite is unfortunate. But remember that that was one case. The rate of failure of turbines in commercial aircraft use is so low that the manufacturing approach has clearly and unequivocally been an outstanding success. Also,please note the correct use of "single crystal" technology includes discarding any blade which comes out of the factory with any kind of defect. If it isn't perfect, you toss it and get another one. */
Which pushes the cost up. Also, there are certain things you're not going to find with NDT. Aircraft engines are amazingly reliable because *everything* is tracked, right back to the alloy's maker. The FRA doesn't require that, and raileroads noe rail equipment makers don't have the capacity to do that. Not to mention it's mondo expensive.
/*I don't know that you can point to the FRA as the root of the problem. */
Since they've been trying to avoid the issue of mailine electrification since the 60's, yeah, it's not a bad idea to finger them.
/* If you can't electrify Albany-NY in the near future (and you can't), you try something else. Amtrak is doing that. */
But their answer is much like trying to replace a dead light bulb with another dead one and expecting the lights to work.
/*In the meantime, if you are affected by this decision, because you or your pals use the train or want to use it, you can write to your elected officials, to Amtrak, to the FRA, and voice your opinions on the subject. Undoubtedly you will learn more about their positions if you do so, and can then decide how next to proceed about persuading them to change.*/
I don't think Amtrak really gives a crap about what potential/current customers think. Their customer service has basically sucked for years. Not to mention, they have this insane love for long distance trains, which are plain loosers.
Amtrak's not going to be around in another 1 or 2 years anyway.
/*Some of your arguments about FRA may be justified. However, in fairness, I should point out to you that American trains are safer than European trains.*/
"How so? AFAIK, the accident rates for the US and Europe are almost identical. the difference is, their equipment is an order of magnitude cheaper to buy and run."
The accident rate may be identical, but the death rate is not. The most recent BritRail crash, for example, caused far more injuries and death than a similar crash would have in the US. This not theoretical; this is not guesswork. This is about real dead bodies. The BritRail train derailed hitting a car. An Acela would have cut the car in half and kept going. The difference is weight. The car occupants are going to be dead either way; might as well protect the train passengers as best you can. And FRA does a better job of that than anyone in Europe.
/*( You may not like FRA, but it is because of FRA standards that an Acela crsh will result in mostly minor injuries, with some serious and the possibility of a fatality or two; try the same crash on a European high-speed train and you're going to be bringing it body bags by the truckload.*/
"That's entirely based on computer models and guesswork."
Wrong. This is real stuff, not theory, and there are actual high-speed rail crashes to prove it. D-B, SNCF and BritRail have all suffered them, with death occurring at far higher rates than Amtrak.
(one example given above).
I've noticed you don't like computer models. What you've missed is, though, that while individual cases (like the 737 rudder) provide examples where the computer model may not have predicted reality, overall, they do a very good job. You always have to watch for "outliers," it's true, and you don't always know where you'll find them. But that doesn't invalidate the entire approach. To do that is simple ignorance.
/*In the meantime, if you are affected by this decision, because you or your pals use the train or want to use it, you can write to your elected officials, to Amtrak, to the FRA, and voice your opinions on the subject. Undoubtedly you will learn more about their positions if you do so, and can then decide how next to proceed about persuading them to change.*/
"I don't think Amtrak really gives a crap about what potential/current customers think. Their customer service has basically sucked for years. Not to mention, they have this insane love for long distance trains, which are plain loosers."
Ultimately, that attitude will reflect more on you than the people you criticize - because you offer nothing constructive as you throw rocks. That's perfectly OK, of course- if you can't vent and whine on Subtalk, where can you? But understand that that's how it looks to me.
/*Wrong. This is real stuff, not theory, and there are actual high-speed rail crashes to prove it.*/
Such as the few TGV derailmentsd at speed where nobody got killed? Or the TGV hitting loaded trucks or paving equipment at 80mph and nobody getting killed?
You're right - the overweght tank approach to rail equipment is better - witness the spectacular performance of the Superliners on the City of new Orleans. Hey, only 11 people got killed, right?
/* D-B, SNCF and BritRail have all suffered them, with death occurring at far higher rates than Amtrak. */
The ICE accident was hitting a bridge. Surely, you don't expect an Acela or it's contents to survive going from 150mph to 0 in a few feet, do you? SNCF has not had any major accidents on the TGV, and the British rail system, well, who knows. Maybe freaks, might be British design.
/*I've noticed you don't like computer models.*/
Not really. They're great fun to look at and impress managers, but they're only as smart as the idiot working the computer.
/* What you've missed is, though, that while individual cases (like the 737 rudder) provide examples where the computer model may not have predicted reality, overall, they do a very good job.*/
Only is the people working the computers actually *think* about the results, first. I'm more concerened about the "the computer is always right' syndrome, which can and does lead to big problems.
/* You always have to watch for "outliers," it's true, and you don't always know where you'll find them. But that doesn't invalidate the entire approach. To do that is simple ignorance. */
To do anything based on a computer model, with no real logic or database to back it up, is for most cases, stupid.
/*The accident rate may be identical, but the death rate is not. The most recent BritRail crash, for example, caused far more injuries and death than a similar crash would have in the US.*/
How so? I'm not aware of any accident in the US where a train derailled, hit a loaded freight, and cars ended up in the weeds, etc.
/*An Acela would have cut the car in half and kept going.*/
Proof? Has the Acela ever hit a car at 125mph? Was this tested by the FRA? M-1s have wacked cars at high speeds and not derailed, and they're light weight even by European standards. But Budd apparently knew what they were doing in terms of design - they've proven a remarkeably safe design, despite light weight.
/* The difference is weight.*/
No it isn't. It's body strength, where engery goes in a crash, and a lot of dynamics.
/* The car occupants are going to be dead either way; might as well protect the train passengers as best you can. And FRA does a better job of that than anyone in Europe*/
You still don't have any hard evidence that US rail equipment design is any better than European. But it is documented that such equipment is more expensive to purchase. And heavy equipment riding on 50 year old truck designs are known to be dammaging to track, more so than modern equipment. And high axle loads are known to be bad for track, roadbed, and maintenance of way in general.
The last fact is documented in any RR engineering book, the first is documented by any decent review of euro vs US rail equipment purchases, and the middle is probbably documented by research somewhere.
The only way to test a design for grade crossing accident safety is, not surprisingly, to wack a few cars under controlled conditions.
"The ICE accident was hitting a bridge. Surely, you don't expect an Acela or it's contents to survive going from 150mph to 0 in a few feet, do you?"
I expect that a properly designed train will absorb more of the energy as it hits the obstacle. Thus, as the accident unfolds, even if some die, others will survive due to that factor. The FRA doesn't take its standards out of thin air (but some of your rock-throwing sounds like it comes from there). Estimates of additional cost to passenger rail cars have been around a few thousand dollars per car. Not a bad deal.
"Proof? Has the Acela ever hit a car at 125mph? Was this tested by the FRA?"
The Acela locomotive is designed to hold onto the track at well over 100 mph even on curves. The locomotive does not tilt, unlike the cars. That speaks plenty to its stability.
As to the FRA tests, I haven't read up on them. Have you?
" M-1s have wacked cars at high speeds and not derailed, and they're light weight even by European standards. But Budd apparently knew what they were doing in terms of design - they've proven a remarkeably safe design, despite light weight."
Budd did build a nice set of trains, and I am impressed by the longevity and good service of the M-1 - of course, I don't know what would happen at 125, since they're not designed to go that fast. Budd did design the Metroliner MU's , which had a very respectable service record, considering the problems overcome. Of course some posters here think they're failures because they didn't reach 150mph, only 110...
SNCF has not had any major accidents on the TGV, and the British rail system, well, who knows. Maybe freaks, might be British design.
Or maybe a design engineer who thinks the way you do.:0)
Seriously, though, BritRail crashes have cost over 100 lives since 1988. Miniscule compared to auto accidents, so I wouldn't hesitate to hop on a train. But there are some things they could be doing better.
IIRC, in the case of the UK train hitting that car that fell onto the tracks, part of the reason for the death toll was that the locomotive was pushing from the back of the train, which was being operated from a cab car.
I know that NJT is big on push-pull operations. How about LIRR, Amtrak?
I know that NJT is big on push-pull operations. How about LIRR, Amtrak?
SEPTA, MARC, and VRE do it, too.
Amtrak's San Diegan (or whatever the train now called) does it, and I believe the Regional Transportation Authority (METRA) does it too.
"I believe the Regional Transportation Authority (METRA) does it too."
Yes, all non-electric trains on Metra are push-pull, with the engine on the end facing away from downtown. And there are a lot of grade crossings -- and a lot of grade crossing collisions -- on the Metra system. I would imagine a good number of those collisions happen when the cab car is on the front of the train. And yet the Metra train always comes out the winner and there's *never* been an outcry for operating the trains with a loco on each end.
If you can't electrify Albany-NY in the near future (and you can't), you try something else.
Hey guy ... give us a chance to get the flush toilets hooked up FIRST, eh? :)
OK. But can't you just bail? It's good for sculling practice :0) (I hope I spelled that kind of boat racing correctly)
Heh. Nah, we got tired of shovelling ... and since we're kinda inland I'm not certain of the spelling there either. But yeah, indoor plumbing! WooHoo! :)
I've been to Albany once. (Blind date). It's very pretty up there.
Well ... OUTSIDE of Albany it's pretty nice, especially when you get far enough away to no longer view Rockefeller's monument pooking out of the ground looking like some obscene submarine pen ... but yeah, out here about 15 miles west of there, it's lalaland ... with guns. Heh.
How abut they use a diesel-electric talgo locomotive and use talgo cars they go pretty fast.
A diesel will reach about 100 mph - pretty respectable - but will not give you the acceleration and top speed Amtrak and its patrons want (125-150 mph range). For that you need either electric or gas turbine locos. Electricifying the line is clearly the best option, but it isn't always achievable, esp. in a democracy when you're fighting politicians and NIMBYs.
Hey RonInBayside Go check Out www.talgoamerica.com
Why do The NIMBY's oppose electrification? Is it that they get high off of the diesel exhaust? I hope these NIMBY's realize that I have to breathe the same air as them. They may love pollution, but I don't, so screw The NIMBY's and clean the air. Like I've said in an earlier post, if they want to put a rail line in my backyard (which I don't mind), then electrify it (plus the passengers would be happier because of faster trains too).
I remember reading an article in Boston Magazine written by a bozo who decried the "ugly" catenary poles ruining the Massachusetts landscape, and railing at Amtrak for lying about how many poles would be needed.
Now, articles in this type of magazine always take a point of view, and rarely do the writers not swing an axe at somebody. But this article was rich in stupidity, boorishness and general irrelevance.
It was also typical of what you might hear a NIMBY say. And, don't forget, a NIMBY can always claim the wires gave his mother brain cancer...
NIMBY and logic don't often get along...
>>NIMBY and logic don't often get along...<<
That's because their brain cells have been destroyed by the diesel exhaust from the locomotives.
It isn't the NIMBYs that oppose electrification - it's the railroads themselves ... all that cost for HOW many ticket sales? Just ain't worth the expense in most areas of the country. In the zones where the number of passengers pays the bills, they ARE electrified largely. Out in "God's country" where an Amtrak train is hauling 5 or 6 people, the cost of over a billion dollars when each train ride is setting back the railroad by tens of thousands of dollars just doesn't encourage them to want to rack up the deficits even higher ... especially with a republican congress wanting to kill the railroads entirely and put them on a nice Texas-based Grey running mutt bus ... (that burns DIESEL) ...
If govt. and citizenry thinks there's enough need for it, then taxes or a bond act can be used to pay for it...if the measure wins support.
Well, the sentiment on the local radio stations is there's a LOT of people honking at their state senators and assemblymen up here *demanding* that it's lights out for the MTA too ... no trains for us, no trains for them and so here we go again on the neverending "it's that OTHER part of the state that's responsible for all the bad things that happen to us" nonsense ...
But the answer's already out there - the last shot at the bond act went down in flames for PRECISELY this same reason ... wouldn't it be neat though if upstate and downstate got together and screwed these politicos instead of letting THEM screw us? :)
So there are people urging their elected officials to shut down the Hudson line? That has to be bogus...
Well, it's my OWN fault for bothering with "chat radio" since you have right wing gassers-off calling each other "liberals" but most of the voices are demanding that MTA funding be cut to ZERO ... I don't pay it no mind because I know what kind of droolers have nothing better to do than listen to those squeaking sounds their radio does because they don't turn it down when they're on the air. :)
But no, right now, they want a nuclear strike on Manhattan. Ignore them ...
Pailpace online reported last Thursday:
"The Super Steel rebuilt RTL-III trainset with powercars 2135-2138 moved under its own power on June 7 from the Rensselaer Maintenance Facility back to Super Steel, Glenville, NY. Reportedly, more mechanical work will take place at Super Steel. This is the first time in several months that the trainset has moved under its own power. (Andy Kirk - posted 6/07)"
How about a track with bikes suspended by weights and a express rail with A tread to pull the bike at 9 mph (and at turns you would have to pedel).
A relative of mine said his train today from NYP to WAS was about 90 minutes late due to electrical problems at Wilmington. He said how they needed a diesel or something to that effect (he is not a railfan).
Does anyone have further details?
Thanks, in advance.
When can I expect to see some R142 trains on the Dyre Avenue line? I've ridden some new cars on the #2 and #6 lines, and look forward to riding these quiet, smooth and bright cars on a more regular basis.
Please, in the future, when asking a question about when something cool will occur, word the subject as a question. I got all excited expecting to see a report of someone who saw the R142s on the 5.
Anyway, to answer your question, it will probably be after the 2 gets all theirs. They probably want to do the car assignments in numerical order, so once the 2 theirs last set (at, say, 6900) The 5 will get the ones afterward (6901-on).
I still believe the 5 could be seeing them any day now on a temporary basis, since at 241st and Flatbush sometimes 2s become 5s and 5s become 2s should there be a shortage of one train or another.
More like Flatbush. The 5 trains from White Plains originate from 239St yard. (AM rush hours).
In the PM rush I have seen 5s become 2s at 241 due to a #2 somewhere along the line going OOS. I just assumed somehow the reverse happened in the morning (I know, not very sound logic).
Yes, sometimes if there is a gap in service, they would send a 5 to 241St or vice versa, gap in 5 service, 2 to Dyre. But since the 5 originate from the yard in the AM rush, and something happens, you can take a 2 to E.180 and pick up a 5 from Dyre there.
I think the last set for the #2 line would more likely be around 6750 rather than 6900. Giving the 2 line #6301-6900 would be 590 cars, which the 2 line doesn't need for itself. More like #6301-6750. I dunno, guess you'll have to wait...
CWalNYC
MTA_R142_6301-6310
How frequent is rush hour service on the new "V" line going to be?? I was thinking today that it would be an idea to run "V" trains to the World Trade Center instead of Houston-2 Av. I'm sure that local station Queens Blvd. riders going to the WTC area would prefer that option vs. the slow "R". Or, is this option not a good idea since the merge with "C" and "E" trains after W4 St would throw schedules into a tizzy?? I personally think running the "V" to WTC would give that train more Downtown use. Tony
True. But then you may also be right about the capacity on the C/E. The C doesn't use much capacity, but the E does.
:-) Andrew
"How frequent is rush hour service on the new "V" line going to be??"
About 8-9 tph.
"I was thinking today that it would be an idea to run "V" trains to the World Trade Center instead of Houston-2 Av."
Is that okay with Grand St shuttle riders who will now have only the F to connect to at Bway Lafayette?
"I'm sure that local station Queens Blvd. riders going to the WTC area would prefer that option vs. the slow "R".
Anybody right now that is going from anywhere on Queens Blvd to WTC is using the E and that seems to be enough as they don't get too crowded until they get by Lex/53rd.
". . .the merge with "C" and "E" trains after W4 St would throw schedules into a tizzy??"
It'd be close. Around 4PM it looks like there's a lot of space between trains, but I've never seen it at the height of the rush.
I have a suggestion regarding the "V" Train:
Run the "V" train from Jamaica Center as an express from Van Wyck Boulevard to Queens Plaza then local to via 6th Avenue to 2nd Avenue.
Shift the "E" Train from Jamaica Center to 179th Street-Hillside Avenue. Run as local from 179th Street-Hillside Avenue to 71st Street-Continental Avenue, then express from 71st Street-Continental to Queens Plaza. The rest of the "E" Train remains unchanged. (This was the original "E" route)
Regards,
Danny the bus addict
It's 71st Avenue, not "Street".
You are correct!
Regards,
Danny the bus addict
You already have the F train running local from 179th St to 71st Ave. That would be excess capacity on the local stations. It might make sense to swithch the F to a rush hour express from 179th to 71st Ave as they used to do.
The only problem is the merger with three lines at 71st Ave. Many mornings the congestion getting into 71st is bad with only 2 lines, three would make it intolorable.
You could say run fewer V trains from Jamaica Center, but those trains are already crowed by the time they hit Union Tpke as it is, so running fewer trains out of Jamaica Center would lead to too much crowding. You would have to divert bus service away from the Archer Ave line to Hillside Ave. to ease the overcrowding but that would defeat the purpose of what the Archer Ave line was built for.
Can the QB exp tracks fit 3 trains? I think not.
The main constraint is on TOTAL track capacity, not on the number of services using a given track. If the capacity of a Queens Boulevard Line express track is (for example) 30 trains per hour, it doesn't really matter whether those 30 trains consist of (say) 30 of one route, 15 each of 2 routes, 1 each of 30 routes, or anything in between. Yes, switching movements can have an effect on total track capacity, but (and where have I heard THIS before? {g}) a properly designed and executed schedule will keep this effect to a minimum.
David
The main constraint is on TOTAL track capacity, not on the number of services using a given track.
Another constraint is whether or not there are a sufficient number of trainsets to provide the service.
TOTAL track capacity is generally determined by the terminal configuration. The contraints caused by reversing direction are usually more severe than those that define one-way single track capacity.
The anticipated service levels are: 20 tph equally divided between the R and the V. The G runs at 6 tph. The total would be 26 tph, which was turned around at Forest Hills without incident in the late 1950's. There are two relays past Continental. One is under 75th Ave; the second is at the Jamaica Yard entrance. Each is capable of turning 15 tph under normal conditions and 30 tph with creative scheduling. However, together they should be able to handle the anticipated service levels without special considerations.
a properly designed and executed schedule...
They used to turn around 90 tph at Park Row durig the cable car days. Perhaps the TA's dummies could be replaced with those old electric switching dummies. :-)
In Moscow, the standard terminal configuration is two tail tracks past the station with a double crossover between them. This arrangement can turn 42 tph, which incidentally happens to be the maximum capacity of the busiest lines. There is an interesting arrangement, where, at the station, a second train operator enters the train at the rear and takes it back out of the layup track and continues on the run back. The original T/O, at what is now the back, can get out and take a short break before walking to the rear of another train. This is much more efficient than having to wait for a train operator to walk through the entire train.
The figure that I gave for 30 tph included a second operator. This figure is based on the length of time it takes a train to pass over the crossover. This time is roughly proportional to the train speed and the train length.
The latest model Moscow trains are 505 feet long, the IND trains are 600 feet long. All other things being equal one would have to derate the Moscow performance proportionately. This would bring the figure down to 35 tph.
There may be differences in the interlocking length between Moscow and the IND. The IND typically added an extra car length on either side of a double crossover to the interlocking block. They did this so that in the unlikely event that the brakes were cut out on the first car, the tripper actuating the brakes on the second car would still stop the train and avoid a collision. An additional 100 feet for the IND interlocking would make the terminal capacity roughly equivalent.
This is not an issue on the Queens Blvd line. There is excess terminal capacity. There are two crossovers at Forest Hills, there are two at 179th St and there is one at Jamaica Center. That's a total of 5 crossovers with a theoretical capacity of 150 tph for an operation that will supply only 50 tph.
What is more remarkable about the Moscow Subway is that they do provide 42 tph operation using a block system that is roughly comparable to that used in NYC. They do use one additional innovation that is decidedly low tech, low cost and can be implemented easily and quickly. There is also a theoretical basis for its effectiveness as well as decades of practical experience. These are perhaps some the the reasons the TA prefers to ignore it.
"Another constraint is whether or not there are a sufficient number of trainsets to provide the service."
...which, of course, there aren't.
"They used to turn around 90 tph at Park Row durig the cable car days."
I did not know that. On how many tracks? I guess they didn't have a problem with people refusing to get off/being asleep/pretending to be asleep/not knowing where the he-- they are in those days.
The lack of a sufficient number of trainsets is more complicated than a simple lack of individual cars. Current TA practices have done much to create this shortage.
The original Park Row terminal (1883) was a simple two-track center platform stub end affair. It was expanded greatly in the ensuing years and reached its zenith around 1907-1908. This layout is widely available but I can't immediately cite a web reference. There were two tracks on the bridge expanding into a 4 track/4 platform terminal (island and side platforms). Then there was an additional 2 track relay west of the terminal with an additional 3 platforms (island and side platforms).
One certainly admires all the tricks that were used in this operation. This station was used by all Manhattan bound passengers from all the Southern District and a good share of the Eastern District passengers. However, there is little necessity for such elaborate operations at Forest Hills. The locals are practically empty when they reach Forest Hills during rush hours. In the morning, the majority of passengers have boarded at 63rd Drive or 67th Ave and want to change for an empty local or an express going to Manhattan. In the evening, the train is practically empty between 67th and Continental.
Removing all passengers for a relay (not a move to the yard) is a recent TA policy. Clearly, taking 3 minutes to perform such fumigation prevents 30 tph operation. An examination of the root problems that caused the TA to implement this policy might result in a different solution that does not limit terminal capacity nor unduly inflate the payroll.
Thanks for the information.
The test on the Queens Boulevard Line a few weeks ago (which is going to be repeated all day on a Saturday soon) revealed problems in getting trains cleared. These problems manifested themselves even with an obscene number of NYCT personnel on the Jamaica-bound platform at Continental Avenue on hand to get trains cleared. The policy of clearing trains on relays probably wasn't in place years ago, but as the operating personnel who read this board have attested many times, it's now necessary (whether the "sidewalk superintendents" who also read this board agree or not), and it is simply not fiscally prudent to flood the Jamaica-bound platform at Continental Avenue with personnel on a daily basis, even if it is only during the rush hours.
A more tightly run operation on NYCT's part would almost definitely allow for higher throughput at the Continental Avenue relays, and it should be possible (it was the norm once), but passenger behavior is a factor that cannot be ignored, and it is a wildcard that just so much can be done to minimize (unless, say, NYPD is willing to provide sufficient police coverage to allow an Officer to ride every relay -- unlikely at best). If anyone on this board has any ideas in this regard, please present them, whether here or to NYCT or both.
With respect to the reasons behind the paucity of cars to operate additional Queens Boulevard service, I am well aware of Mr. Bauman's objection to the linking of subway cars into multiple-car sets because (as he contends) it inflates Mean Distance Between Failures while reducing the number of spares available, as he has articulated it on this board many times. Whether it is the factor he claims it to be is open to debate, it has been debated here before, and I have no intention of debating it again. There is, of course, also the R-30 factor (cars that were said to have been intended for retention in case of a ridership increase were instead scrapped before the increase happened), but that, too, has been talked about to death.
It should also be mentioned that the bigger "bang for the buck," should sufficient cars become available, would be to provide more Queens Boulevard/Manhattan local service, rather than to provide direct Queens Boulevard/Crosstown service. Among politicians and self-appointed spokespeople who have spoken out on this issue, only Claire Shulman (Queens Borough President) has said anything like this -- and she's been term-limited out of office at the end of the year, thus having nothing to lose by cheesing off the Crosstown contingent.
David
David
The test on the Queens Boulevard Line a few weeks ago (which is going to be repeated all day on a Saturday soon) revealed problems in getting trains cleared.
Such a test pre-supposes that trains all day Saturday would manifest the same riding population as Monday-Friday rush hour trains. I would submit that they are completely different populations with different numbers and different destinations. I daresay that any conclusions reached regarding clearing out trains based on a Saturday experiment would be suspect.
The policy of clearing trains on relays probably wasn't in place years ago, but as the operating personnel who read this board have attested many times, it's now necessary (whether the "sidewalk superintendents" who also read this board agree or not)...
I've received some private correspondance regarding this topic as a result of some questions that I posted on this board. I maintain that there is a way to address the operating personnel's concern without having to clear the trains. It would require more personnel but not an unreasonable number.
...it is simply not fiscally prudent to flood the Jamaica-bound platform at Continental Avenue with personnel on a daily basis, even if it is only during the rush hours.
It is more fiscally prudent to build more tracks or $500 million connectors, if a capacity problem could be solved by flooding a location with personnel?
This is not to imply that flooding an area with personnel will necessarily solve or even improve a situation. I can make a fairly strong argument that the platform conductors at Grand Central increase dwell time by 10 seconds.
A more tightly run operation on NYCT's part would almost definitely allow for higher throughput at the Continental Avenue relays,
I think that discovering how to maximize througput through terminals is far more important than whether or not the G is extended beyond Court Sq. The TA is planning to terminate 20 tph at Continental when the V comes on line. The TA is claiming that they cannot clear 26 tph. The 20 tph figure consists of 10 V's and 10 R's. The R's represent a reduction from 12 tph due to the Manhattan Bridge switch. Eventually, there will be four operational tracks on the MB and people should expect a return to 12 tph service and eventually to the 15 tph of yore. The switches at Church Ave and Bergen St will also be made operational. So, passengers should reasonably expect 12-15 tph service on both lines making for 24-30 tph. If the TA can't turn this level of trains around at Continental, then the 63rd St Connector has been maxed out before it has opened.
Among politicians and self-appointed spokespeople who have spoken out on this issue, only Claire Shulman (Queens Borough President) has said anything like this -- and she's been term-limited out of office at the end of the year, thus having nothing to lose by cheesing off the Crosstown contingent.
Queens residents who board at Court Sq and Van Alst are within walking distance of other trains with direct access to Manhattan. The residents who are protesting the most are those from Greenpoint who have never had a chance to vote against Ms. Shulman because they reside in Brooklyn. I think that Ms. Shulman's attitude has more to do with the intervention of Newtown Creek than to term limits.
The Greenpoint residents will indeed have less service as a result of the new routing - with or without a moving sidewalk. The present service level to Manhattan from 23rd-Ely is 30 tph. The new service level will be 25 tph. The present service level to Manhattan at Queens Plaza is 42 tph. The new service level will be 35 tph.
It should also be mentioned that the bigger "bang for the buck," should sufficient cars become available, would be to provide more Queens Boulevard/Manhattan local service, rather than to provide direct Queens Boulevard/Crosstown service.
Not necessarily so. That depends on where the passengers are boarding and which trains. The last time I'd checked, most of the passengers were boarding expresses between Forest Hills and Jamaica. The expresses were running above their service load levels by the time they left Forest Hills. Adding additional local trains between Forest Hills and Manhattan will have only a marginal effect. Increasing express service would provide a better return under such a scenario. It is not as if express service levels were not significantly higher in the past. I would be curious to see what the actual station turnstile counts were to see if this is or is not merit to this supposition.
I appreciate your articulation of some of the arguments presented for citing some of the reasons for the trainset shortage. Let me cite two more.
First, the TA's response to the fact that the brakes on the current fleet could not stop their trains in a short enough distance was to limit train speed not to improve the brakes. This lengthened the average travel time by 10%. This decision required an increase of 10% more cars to maintain the existing service level.
Second, the TA's multiple links come in half train lengths. One technique to maximize car utilization is to match train size to demand. Trains could be sized in 10% or 12% increments, if single cars were used. The present arrangement is to coarse. Trains length could be sized either too long or too short with 50% increments.
Incidently, the use train frequency to equalize load levels is complicated by route topology. The proposed frequency mismatch between the E/V and F/V should prove to be an operational nightmare.
I agree that it would be better to try out the service plan under actual weekday riding conditions, but the cars aren't available. This much has been acknowledged even by Mr. Bauman, although the process that led to this shortfall is a bone of contention (and I'm not saying I disagree with some or even all of Mr. Bauman's analysis).
Not everyone who rides the G between Brooklyn and Queens in the morning rush is riding FROM Brooklyn TO Queens (or to Queens in the afternon). I know of at least one SubTalker (not me) who does the opposite. In neither case, however, is the number anything worth writing home about. It is true that the loudest howls are coming from Greenpoint, which is in Brooklyn, and therefore outside Mrs. Shulman's constituency; however, that doesn't mean she hasn't heard from her constituents who wish to travel in the other direction.
With respect to my "bang for the buck" comments, I was referring to a choice between Queens Boulevard/Crosstown service and Queens Boulevard/Manhattan service -- and I thought I had done a good job of articulating that. I specifically avoided mentioning express service because I knew I'd get the response that I ended up getting anyway, and we've talked about 11-car express trains before, and it's not going to happen. Oh, well...
The argument that removing field shunting has resulted in an increase of 10% in car requirements to meet the same service levels may or may not hold water. I'd have to check to determine whether running times have increased systemwide since 1996, especially on Queens Boulevard services. My feeling, however (and it's more than a feeling, since I've discussed this with the scheduling people), is that running time has not been increased, at least not enough to warrant additional trainsets.
With regard to train lengths, I don't think anyone would argue that train lengths on the Queens Boulevard Line are 50% too long or even 10% too long.
David
I agree that it would be better to try out the service plan under actual weekday riding conditions, but the cars aren't available.
There are two questions to be answered: how quickly can trains be emptied at Continental and what are the physical limitations to reversing trains at the Continental relays. It would be nice to answer both questions with a single study but not necessary.
A timing study could be made for both rush hour periods to see how quickly the existing trains can be emptied and how many personnel are required. Assuming a braking and acceleration times of 30 seconds each, the relation between unloading time and max service level is apparant. If 30 tph is desired, then the unloading time had better be less than 1 minute. If the unloading time is more than 2 minutes, then the proposed V&R service levels terminating at Forest Hills are not feasible.
The second question could be answered at a time when cars are available. It is essentially answering the question how well could the TA operate the trains, if they were not burdened by having to carry passengers. The answer can be deduced from a simple timing study. Any substantial deviation from the theoretical value should be a signal for an intesive study to pinpoint the deviation.
Positive answers from both studies should be enough corroboration for assuming that local service could be increased. However, the car shortage means that these tests are being performed for future considerations not the present.
The argument that removing field shunting has resulted in an increase of 10% in car requirements to meet the same service levels may or may not hold water. I'd have to check to determine whether running times have increased systemwide since 1996, especially on Queens Boulevard services.
My 1978 schedule show that the F running time between 179th and Stilwell to be 82 1/2 minutes whereas the present running time posted on the MTA website is 90 minutes. The same schedule shows the E running time between 179th and Chambers to be 45 minutes whereas the present schedule shows 51 minutes. The EE took 48 minutes to reach Whitehall today's R takes 53 minutes.
With regard to train lengths, I don't think anyone would argue that train lengths on the Queens Boulevard Line are 50% too long or even 10% too long.
One might not think so but whenever there is unequal loading there are possibilities for better resource allocation. "Reducing Subway Overcrowding at the Manhattan CBD Cordons - Vol. 1: The Queens Cordon," a planning study that is available on the web, shows that load levels for the various services to be: E-122%; F-133%; N-112% and R-72%. Removing a single car from the R would raise its load level to 80% and placing it or adding them in single train increments to the F would reduce its loading to 121%.
"My 1978 schedule show that the F running time between 179th and Stilwell to be 82 1/2 minutes whereas the present running time posted on the MTA website is 90 minutes. The same schedule shows the E running time between 179th and Chambers to be 45 minutes whereas the present schedule shows 51 minutes. The EE took 48 minutes to reach Whitehall today's R takes 53 minutes."
If these figures are accurate (and I'm not doubting them, though the EE was a memory by 1978), then it confirms that running times have increased...since 1978. That's too far back. Field shunting was removed in 1996-97. Has running time been increased since that time? Have trainset requirements increased since that time? I don't have those answers readily available...if anybody here does, please speak up.
I haven't read the study Mr. Bauman cited. When was it done? Was it done before the ridership increases of the late 1990s/early 2000s? I highly doubt that E and F loading has dipped below 100%, but I would take an educated guess that R trains are now more than 72% full. The N is not a Queens Boulevard service, so I am not certain as to its relevance to this discussion.
David
I haven't read the study Mr. Bauman cited. When was it done?
1992
I'd be very much interested in studying more recent data. Any conclusions are subject to the accuracy of their assumptions. I do not profess any immunity from the "garbage in - garbage out" syndrome.
It would certainly be nice, if the TA were to make some if its data as readily availabile as the study I used.
The point of my illustrative example was to show that unequal load levels do allow for better resource allocation, even in such highly overcrowded environments as the Queens-Manhattan corridor. I do think that the ability to add or remove capacity in 10% increments is a very useful tool to optimizing resource allocation.
The current TA practice is to run all trains at full length. This is not a bad policy, if cars are plentiful and the costs for running them are not great. These conditions do not accurately characterize the present operating environment.
"The current TA practice is to run all trains at full length. This is not a bad policy, if cars are plentiful and the costs for running them are not great. These conditions do not accurately characterize the present operating environment."
In at least one sense, they do reflect operating conditions. A long train and a short train both typically have an operator and conductor. So, it really costs little more to run an eight-car train than it does to run a four car train.
A long train and a short train both typically have an operator and conductor. So, it really costs little more to run an eight-car train than it does to run a four car train.
I think you are overlooking at least two factors in your analysis.
First, there are other expenses besides operator salaries that are associated with operating cars. The operator cost is not the major cost according to the FTA datbase. Non-operating costs are greater than operating costs. Total maintenance costs are approximately equal to total operating costs.
Second, there are amortized capital costs associated with the cars - over $150K per car per year. Suppose there is a sytem-wide target load level of 80% and this can be accomplished by 7 cars on one line and 9 on another, then running 10 car trains on both lines is fairly wasteful. These capital costs are so high that they will swamp any effects due to operator costs. However, these capital costs are not directly borne by the TA, so they have no incentive to include them in their overall management strategy.
"Second, there are amortized capital costs associated with the cars - over $150K per car per year. Suppose there is a sytem-wide target load level of 80% and this can be accomplished by 7 cars on one line and 9 on another, then running 10 car trains on both lines is fairly wasteful."
But if the cost of buying and replacing single units is substantially higher than current policy (and it is), then the savings you wish to achieve do not exist, because you have left out important details in your analysis. There is waste either way, and there is a chance that your approach is more wasteful.
"The last time I'd checked, most of the passengers were boarding expresses between Forest Hills and Jamaica. The expresses were running above their service load levels by the time they left Forest Hills. Adding additional local trains between Forest Hills and Manhattan will have only a marginal effect. Increasing express service would provide a better return under such a scenario. It is not as if express service levels were not significantly higher in the past."
You're being close-minded, as usual, Steve.
The proposed V routing will tend to redistribute passengers as follows: those heade for west of Jackson Heights stops (mostly local stops) will have a new service along Sixth Av to take them there. These people will no longer be transferring off Sixth Av trains at Queens Plaza.
Passengers transferring off the 6 at 51rst St will now have a similar choice of local vs. express, with people headed for locations east of Jackson Heights, or those headed for express stops, on the "E" and those headed for local stops on the "V." This option did not exist before, so you couldn't choose it if you wanted to.
Tis arrangement can make a difference in Queens-bound service. How much of a difference? I think it's fair to observe it in action and see what actually happens.
You're being close-minded, as usual, Steve.
It has been decades since I used the Queens Blvd line on a daily basis. That's why I did qualify my observations pending an analysis of more recent turnstile counts. I don't think that the ridership distribution has materially changed because there has not been any significant new building developments.
Have things really changed. Do expresses no longer arrive at Forest Hills above 100% of service load level? Is the service level contemplated for express service really more than 80% of the 1957 service levels?
The proposed V routing will tend to redistribute passengers as follows: those heade for west of Jackson Heights stops (mostly local stops) will have a new service along Sixth Av to take them there. These people will no longer be transferring off Sixth Av trains at Queens Plaza.
Would you care to speculate what percentage of the total Queens Blvd Line usage originates from these stations? None of these stations would merit a visit from a citywide office seeker. There are 8 other stations that should be on his/her list.
Passengers transferring off the 6 at 51rst St will now have a similar choice of local vs. express, with people headed for locations east of Jackson Heights, or those headed for express stops, on the "E" and those headed for local stops on the "V." This option did not exist before, so you couldn't choose it if you wanted to.
Are you assuming that those people wanting such local service were incapable of counting up to 59?
Actually the potential for transfer between the Lex and the Queens Blvd line has been reduced. Currently there are 42 tph total from Queens at 59th and 51st. There will be only 35 tph from Queens available for such transfers under the new routing.
One thing that has changed over the decades is the destination distribution in Manhattan. The Lex&53rd St Station was designed to service a residential area when it was built. The platform and entrances are inadequate for the current demand. Reducing the number of trains using this station by 16% does not strike me as a prudent policy for dealing with platform overcrowding.
I think it's fair to observe it in action and see what actually happens.
Designers and engineers should be paid to have a better handle on the future than to wait and see what happens. They should be paid to avoid catastr