For the next three days, midday Manhattan-bound D/Q trains will be skipping Prospect Park. Will the shuttle be stopping at the Stillwell-bound platform for a change? That would make for a most exciting ride.
Stopping at the Coney Island-bound would either require single train operation (no x-over) or switching south of Prospect Park.
So I doubt it.
On Saturday I was one preparing to turn around the loop at Government center I got off The Type-7 I was ridding and got on the type-8 car #3814. I rode it out to B.C. and back. Some observations.
1. In the Front and rear sections the ride seemed very smooth and quite In the center section it was no were near as smooth and was not as quite but was still less noisy than the Boeing LRVs are
2. The LEDs on the outside aren't in better then the ones on the Red Line I like the New York ones better.
3. The automated stop announcements were clear although they only worked on the Subway part of the line and announced government center and Kenmore after leaving the stations.
4. I didn't like the interior color scheme other rider seemed to like it better so I guess it is a matter of taste.
5. The door accesses in the front isn't good, I Think there should be one less seat in the front and more room there.
6. I could not stand the Beep Beep Beep every time the door closed.
7. Other passengers seemed to be split 50/50 one weather they liked the exterior look of the car I didn't like but again it most be a matter of taste.
8. Other than the four isolated seats I liked the large amount of window space.
9. It seems passengers would rather stand than climb the three steps. The steps also seemed to slow down unloading times at Park Street and government center.
10. I wonder how long it will take for someone to get injured falling off the steps on a crowded car.
11. The other passengers had an overwhelmingly positive view of the car (bet they don't know the green line should be full of them by now or how much keeping them on the road for the next 20 years is going to cost!)
12. Grade appearance c-
Grade Ride B
Grade maintenance F
I'm glad you finally got to ride it! I ahve yet to ride them since they came back on thurs.
A few replies:
"2. The LEDs on the outside aren't in better then the ones on the Red Line I like the New York ones better"
AGREED!!
"5. The door accesses in the front isn't good, I Think there should be one less seat in the front and more room there."
I dunno, this car has less seats as it is already.
"6. I could not stand the Beep Beep Beep every time the door closed."
hehehe, for some reason I like it, but I know most people don't. Reminds me of the door closing signal on the R110A.
"8. Other than the four isolated seats I liked the large amount of window space."
INDEED! Extra window space is always a plus! Again, I think the seats need to be there.
"9. It seems passengers would rather stand than climb the three steps. The steps also seemed to slow down unloading times at
Park Street and government center.
10. I wonder how long it will take for someone to get injured falling off the steps on a crowded car."
Well, the three steps are just in a different place now. I don't think I would want anybody to fall out the older car while the doors are closing.
"11. The other passengers had an overwhelmingly positive view of the car (bet they don't know the green line should be full of
them by now or how much keeping them on the road for the next 20 years is going to cost!)"
Very true, most non-railfans don't know what is going on; the Herald and Globe have given the trains a limited amount of coverage. Even though the cars may be lemons (I hope that changes), the sleak italian style is quite nice, I'll have to admit!
Cheers,
-Nick
"Sleek Italian Style" ???
Congrats on getting a ride! Any bets on how long this in-service period will last?
So far, they are making the Boeing LRV look good, not only in its present state, but back in its early days, when it gave new meaning to the phrase "break-in"
Gerry
For those who went to the yard late last night, did you come back and hit the hay, or had to let out some excitement here on subtalk? I'm sure we'll all look foward to some reports, and perhaps a few pics too. :-) -Nick
Yes there in (8101). Pics to come soon.
Robert
I was there chillen with Robert (B Division T/O), I shot images of the R-143, and I shot a 1 hour video on the car being taking of the truck and into the yard.
The images I will pass down to Dave Pirrman to place on the site, if any one wants any pre-images, just e-mail me at tlogan@transitalk.com and I'll hook you up!
Regards,
Trevor Logan
www.transitalk.com
I was great to see a 100+ foot truck pull up with a train on it's back. There was a Bus Opt. waiting to park a bus in the yard near the gate. He called he wife to tell her what he was seeing. The pic. that Trevor got look great. I was great to have some one to hang out with that I know. I was the only one using a One Shot Cemura, every one else had Dig. cemuras so there pic. must look great. I wish I could get on the train when it's shiped to EN yard. nut if the line Superintendent is there on Fridays he won't let me on. They don't know if they are going to use a R38 as horse or a desel to pull them. The person I spoke to sayed I would be sometime after 8:00pm on Friday, so if someone can get any where down the route to get pic. that would be great. I think it will go down the "A" to W4, switch to the "F" into Essix street cut to the "J" in to EN Yard.
Robert
One more thing. If anyone want's to see a train on Broadway. Get up to the GW bridge after 10:00pm, that is when they let the over side loads go over. It shoud get over the bridge by 11:00pm. The cars goes right down Broadway to 215th street and make a right into the yard.
Robert
Thanks Trevor. I'm putting them on the R143 page right now!
-Dave
Did anyone have a look-see (if you went close enough) if the even numbered cars have the green-type seating?
Not important, just curious.
I took a peak at it today. It's on track 18, the first track as you pass from the shop into the inspection shed (The R-110B's are on track 19).
The seats on this car (8101) are the periwinkle blue seen on the earlier pictures.
The front LED sign is red, like the 142's. (You can see the color of them even when off, like the old red-only signs in many stations). The controller is a stick shift kind like the 142, only it's in the side window. (The 110B is also on the side)
The rumor I heard about the console sitting high in the front windshield is true. It looks almost like it comes up to eye level (when sitting down). It will be very hard to key by with one of these things. You'll probably have to go to full service and open the end door to see if the stop arm went down.
I saw that to. Well I guest I will have to see it for my self on Thursday when I go to see the last one come in for the week. Also the side sign are LED's not LCD's so they are going to be very bright, I don't know what color they are.
Robert
OK. So I understand that an R143 in in da house. Any of you know which track they put the thing on?
I think they sayed that they were going on track 57, in side the barn. Then on Friday they are getting moved to ENY track 7.
Robert
Has anyone down the line been able to pick up a new Amtrak Northeast Corridor schedule book?
At South Station in Boston this morning, all the agent had was a poorly-copied version of the small card. And it had mistakes on it; he had to cross out and write in a few changes before giving it to me.
I did not see the newest NEC schedule books at Washington, D.C., either.
I think there are some schedule and reservation errors on that book so that Amtrak does not put them on the shelves.
Chaohwa
But, I've heard that Amtrak has cut service on the Inland route even MORE.
THANKS AMTRAK!!!!
With luck, I'll have a car by this fall*, and I'll never have to deal with Amtrak's lateness, rude employees, lousey schedules, high prices, crap service, wobbly cars, or terrible track again in my life.
I guess Amtrak is back into that "cut service until we're profitable" mode again.
Well, if they go belly up and I'm desperate, there's always the bus to the always reliable, if not always clean, Metro-North....
*Shhh!!! Don't tell Jersey Mike, but it might even be a '72 nova with a 350 or so small block, among other goodies....
Hey Mike!!! That reminds me - I've got the bike up here in case you ever wanna see my face in person! >:)
What a way to celebrate your 30th birthday, Amtrak. Senility, already?
How much would a 20 year old average diesel loco cost and how much life has it left?
Arti
What I can remember of an article in Railway Age I read a few years ago SD-40-2 were going for up to $200,000..these would have been some 20 years old then; SD45's weren't in much favor except on my former employer MRL, probably because they were cheap..like $45,000. Either of these types could have dated back to the late 60"s, the -2 variety a little newer but these were the bulk of production in the 20 year or so market. l950's built GP 7/9 ran about $65,000. Can't remember it all. Being western I don't know much about GP38, 40 etc...the six motor units were more popular out here.
As for how long they'll last MRL (Montana Rail Link) is running Sd40, 45, and some GP35, some GP9,Sw12, and a rare instance of GP7 and Sw-p, even had 2 SD7's. Not to say they didn't spend a lot of money rehabilitating them but a few have made or may make 40 years of age. These are all GM-EMD of course; the other builders including GE were always disposed of first; maybe now GE has better ones.
Thanks,
So $700K would be grossly overpaying?
Arti
Judging by what I read 2-3 years ago I'd say indeed it would be overpaying. But I don't know the type of loco. involved...for the 20 year figure I pulled as first possibility the SD40-2 the newest of which would now be about 20 years old, the oldest 30 years, and also the most popular unit of its time and what I think is most in demand.
Not sure of the costs, but out here in southern California, we see BNSF running 45-year-old GP9's in local swervices on a daily basis!!! (They sound like absolute crap, too.....like a piston is just about ready to come through the block and body!)
Tuesday's Times has an article on how Robert Kiley is doing in London so far. He has verbally stepped on toes, is at odds with the government, and is appreciated by the press and people.
Randy Kennedy's weekly Tunnel Vision column in Tuesday's Times today relates a ride on Track Geometry Car No. 2 on the F line in Brooklyn.
I got a photo of it at the Times Square (7 line) station on April 6th. It was west of the station (beyond signal A42|C) while three trains terminated and departed on the track (not at the same time though, or Times Square would've been a mess). After the third train left, TGC2 passed through the station, posed for a photo, then left.
I had the opportunity to ride the Track Geometry Car TGC-II a number of years ago ... I bid on this at the last Transit Museum Auction and Tag Sale (that seems so long ago). I opened the bidding and no one counterbid me. Got to spend the day on the 2/5 lines. Very interesting experience.
--Mark
Lets get this baby to pass through the Cranberry tubes and maybe make a recommendation to get rid of the whiplash and the bottom of the tube!
And when will the Rutgars tunnel have its rails welded?
avid
The underpass at Lex 28th Street Station seems to have some construction going on. Does anyone know what they are doing, sealing off that temporarily closed underpass?
Arti
Hello, there. I discovered that the "D" has split service once again this weekend. Between 205 and WTC and bet. Stillwell and West 4th. Can someone please find out why the "B" is not affected? It travels basically on the same route as the "D", in Manhattan.
Because, on weekends, the B's Northern terminal is 21st St/Queensbridge. It does not have to go through that section between 59th St/Columbus Circle and 7th Ave, which is where the work affecting the D is being done. Source: MTA website.
Peace,
ANDEE
The "B"'s northern terminal on weekends is 145th Street, lower level since November of 2000.
Source: MTA Website
I thought that also. But when I checked the info on THE MTA WEBSITE this is what I saw.
Peace,
ANDEE
I think it's safe to assume someone working on the MTA Web Site didn't do their homework. The B goes to 145th St on the weekends, and hasn't gone to Queensbridge in months. With the upcoming GO, this will overlap with the E and F service disruption, basically leaving all stations along 53rd St (including 7th Av) as a mess.
Essentially, it would appear that the Bronx D portion is replacing the E to WTC, and to be local from 145 St to WTC to eliminate any switching problems that would result if the D were to remain express.
B service? What B service? The B will more than likely be cut back to 36th St in Brooklyn. From West 4th St to Rockefeller Ctr, that leaves only the F.
Of course, this is mere speculation on my part, since the site fails to mention any B service disruptions and how the D is going to be in Manhattan (local or express).
-Stef
Are the switches from the 8th Ave. local to the 6th Ave. local tracks still in place south of W. 4th St.? If they are, the D could simply run via 8th Ave. to W. 4th and switch over. Just curious.
i was thinking the same.
Going uptown that may be the case. Going downtown would put the D on the F local track at Broadway Lafayette with no place to cross to the express track, hence this GO which is taking place.
-Stef
I know of a few lines where there is a change of the route letter and with that, a change of the zero location. For example, a southbound 2 train leaving Borough Hall is on route K, but approaching Hoyt Street, it is on route E. Route K and Route E have different zero locations (Brooklyn Bridge station for E; 44th and B'way for K).
Another example on the IND E route (used by G trains), there is a point where the line jumps from an extention of IND route B (6th Av-Bklyn Hts line), to an extension of IND route D (Qns Blvd line).
My question is this: On each line, where are the points where the zero changes in terms on both zeroes. For example, on the X line, route U changes to route V at U 217+00, and route V changes to route U at 60+72.
Thanks in advance.
They say that Chambers St is "ground zero" if you will. To list the zero locations are too numerous to mention. For example, on the Q tracks (Canarsie Line), zero is between 6th And 8th Avenues. West of that, the numbers add a W (i.e.Q1-12W).
You are talking about the "chaining" or "station" numbers used
primarily with the signal system. On the IRT, there are many
0 points and the system is very confusing and inconsistent. The IRT
uses 10 foot stationing intervals, so there are about 200 feet
separating signals 950 and 970, for example. However, the numbers
are fudged a little bit. Even numbers are used for northbound
signals and odd numbers for southbound (or maybe it is the other
way around, flip a coin). The BMT and IND both use 100 foot station
intervals but the BMT zeros at Chambers Street while the IND
stationing is based on a theoretical 0 point that is outside of
the bounds of the system.
The best readily available reference is the book Tracks of the NY
Subway. The author posts here sometimes.
When I think of IRT chaining, I think of the last digit of the distance (the track number) separately from the actual measurement, and assume an interval of 100 feet (as in the B-division.) In other words, the information present is the same and is interpreted in the same way, but the presentation format varies slightly. The IRT uses nnnT/L where the BMT and IND use LT/nnn.
On the IRT, even-numbered tracks are southbound, odd-numbered tracks are northbound. 3 and 4 are local, 1 and 2 are express.
Mark
You are right, that is a more logical way of viewing it.
The last digit is the track number which the IRT did PRR-style
1-2-3-4 with 1 being n/b. The only catch is that you can have
a last digit of a signal plate which is 5,6,7 or 8 when two
signals would otherwise have the same number. Certain other
signal equipment locations (junction boxes or enclosures) can
have a last digit of 0 or 9.
...while the IND stationing is based on a theoretical 0 point that is outside of the bounds of the system.
Can you explain the logic behind this? Do you know where that 0 pooint is?
According to Cunningham and DeHart, the center of the IND
universe is West 4 Street. Station numbers increase as you
go northbound and decrease southbound. The only thing is,
West 4 Street isn't 0. There is no 0. The absolute 0
point is out in the NY harbor near Sandy Hook, and the relative 0
at W4 is the distance from there to that point, expressed in
hundreds of feet (presumably as the crow flies).
That's not what I'm talking about (I have the book anyway). I'm talking about where in the system the lines change (where the line changes, the zero could also change to the zero of the respective lines).
If the difference between A and B div rolling stock are slight, I suggest that certain parts and systems be salvaged and reused. In particular, those commponents that make a "single a single." from the #7 Flushing line.
When the r/143s and R/160s begin to flow in and begin service, freeing r/32,40, and 42s IHS the most servicable be converted to single to then add to the consist on Queens Blvd to move up to 660ft cars. These cars should receive a GOH of sorts to arrest the rust thats gone on unchecked. It a short term solution to "car leanness" due to expanded demands.
While trains per hour maybe maxed out, the size of the trains still has a smigin of growth available. 10% at the most.
avid
Slant 40 nose on the front of an R/44!
avid
Bob Backlund for President.
Dave Pirmann for Mayor.
Redbirds on the 1/9....
Redbirds on the 1/9....
You can have 'em! Just give the 7 your R62A's and we'll all be happy.
:-) Andrew
All R33/36 WF's to be repainted in orginal white / aqua black stripe colors with each car named for different state, city or transit executive, including Heypaul.
High Gloss Black must be added for formal occasions, Proms, Weddings and Funnerals of Civic and Transit leaders and Officals! Some done up in a Gothic and Mediterranean style for the devote of all nations and beleifs.
avid
Andrew... pull up a chair.. we got biz'ness to talk about..
:C)
One tired T/O hitting the barn door in the yard could make your wish come true.
My list:
Killing OPTO
Bringing back nighttime express service on Queens Blvd.
Bringing back the round-robin Rockaway Shuttle. Just so I can say that I worked it.
Putting the R38's on the E.
Flip-flopping the N & R flip flop.
Establishing annual tickets with big savings.
Did I mention killing OPTO?
Mine:
1. Put cars with useable railfan windows (R32, 38, 40, 42, 62n/A with conventional cab) on the following lines:
1/9, B, D, F, G
They never seem to have them, especially on the first 4.
I saw a train of 32's on the G today.
I rode a train of R62A cars on the 3 yesterday, with railfan window. I would be happy with them on the 7 if AND ONLY IF they kept the cab width to less than the full width of the car, not like on the other lines the 62's run on.
2. Train location boards visible to everyone on the platform. Without these, you NEVER know where the next train is.
3. Short trains stopping near the only available exit.
I've had several experiences, at places like Northern Blvd station where I miss short (G) trains because the stop sign is at a place where it would be IMPOSSIBLE to see the train from the station entrance. There's only one for each direction, and are both at the south end of the platforms. The platform for Manhattan-bound trains has an "S" sign at the end of the platform, but the 4, 6, 8, and 10 signs are spaced 1 car-length apart from each other, making it impossible to see a G train in the station, also making everyone walk more than they have to in order to get to the exit. They still think Northern Blvd has 2 exits on each platform (it did, but the 56th Street exit closed a LONG time ago.
That's all for now.
>>>The platform for Manhattan-bound trains has an "S" sign at the end of the platform, but the 4, 6, 8, and 10 signs are spaced 1 car-length apart from each other, making it impossible to see a G train in the station, also making everyone walk more than they have to in order to get to the exit.<<<
You mean the 4,6,8,10 are on the Forest Hills side right? As far as the extra walking, it's ONLY 75 feet more.
Yes, the 4, 6, 8, and 10 are on the northbound side. As far as the walking, Some people (especially the elderly) don't like walking more than they have to. The time it takes to walk 75 feet could mean the difference between catching or missing a connecting bus (or train if going the other way).
Restore the final field shunt step and speed up the trains.
Fewer WDs and GTs.
Heypaul for mayor.
I am planning to make some NYC subway routes for a Japanese train sim program called BVE. I inted on making them as accurate as BVE allows (there are lmitations, such as the 25 meter rule: changes in track, platforms, etc. can only be placed at postions that are increments of 25 meters)
Railfan windows are great for getting things like signal numbers, but are not as good when trying to estimate grades.
Where can I obtain drawings where the grades are written, and contain such vital information as location of signals, curve radii, elevation, grades, and platform locations?
If any exist on the internet, point me to the URL.
Thanks in advance.
Wow! This is the most profound article I've seen since 'POPE CONDEMNS PRE-MARITAL SEX'. Specifically, the City edition of today's NEWSDAY cites the signs at the MN Fordham station which indicates the 'C' and 'D' trains are six blocks away at Fordham Road and the Concourse. The rush-hour 'C' to Bedford Park was replaced by the 'B' some three years ago; only recently did someone see fit to rub the 'C' off the sign.
(What's not mentioned is that the sign is on Metro-North property, and as such was installed by that entity. To make matters worse, the OFFICIAL MTA website STILL has the 'C' going to Bedford Park; at least the strip map shows it that way.)
If NEWSDAY wants to really delve into this subject, there's loads of other such outdated, misleading or just plain wrong directional signs all over the system.
I saw a far less accurate sign at Fordham last summer of similar intent. It had the Pelham Parkway/White Plains station of the '2' and '5' a mere six blocks in the other direction! In truth, it's about ten blocks along Fordham Road from the station to Southern Boulevard, then another half-mile through Bronx Park (narrow sidewalks alongside speeding traffic), through the cloverleaf interchange for the Bronx River Parkway and across the wide intersection with Boston Road before you get to WPR. I pity anyone who ever took this sign seriously.
The uptown platform at Fulton Street still has a sign depicting the 'M' to Metropolitan still stopping there all day between rush hours on weekdays. Back in 1995 or '96, it was cut back to Chambers midday, only running to and from lower Nassau and through Montague during rush hours themselves. Since the old sign remains, there is no advisory to take the 'J' to Chambers for midday 'M' service. Anyone who tries to wait for a Queens-bound 'M' at 11:00 am on the strength of this outdated sign is in for a nasty surprise and a steady parade of 'J' trains.
The southern end of Cortlandt Street on the 'N' and 'R' is closed weekends, but you'd never know it at first, because the signs on the platform say "OPEN 6AM-7PM." It does NOT say M-F, which implies you can exit there during the stated hours during weekends as well. I had a long argument of semantics with both the token clerk and the station manager, both of whom asserted that it's not necessary to specify M-F; if the exit were open on weekends, the sign would say 'DAILY'.
This stop is very popular with tourists, and while they won't be able to tell by this 'logic' that the exit is closed, potential muggers sure might.
Can't resist one more: In the mezzanine of Woodhaven Boulevard/Slattery Plaza, a sign lists all the buses available on street level, among them the Q23. Sorry- the 23 is available a full three stops away.
Aren't you glad we've got the media on our side?
Such as:
- A stairway sign at the the Van Wyck Boulevard station on the F line in Queens pointing you to "Van Wyck Boulevard" - a roadway that was replaced by Robert Moses' Van Wyck Expressway in the 1950's; (the station has since been renamed "Briarwood-Van Wyck" but the offending stairway sign is still there);
- The Woodlawn station at the Bronx end of the 4 line pointing you to "Woodlawn Road," which doesn't exist;
- A mural on the wall on the Fulton St 2/3 station pointing one to a never-built stairway;
- Tiled signs at the 50th Street C/E station pointing one to 51th and 49th Street exits, which are long closed;
- A tiled sign at the Delancey St station on the F pointing to a "Broome Street" stairway, eliminated years ago;
and many, many others.
There is a sign that is still up that is visible on the Interboro Pkwy that says Union Tpke--E,F,GG,N. That was never correct.
How about a northbound bus sign on Kissena Blvd around Laburnum Av that says that the Q22 and Q35 stop there instead of the Q25 and Q34.
BTW, car #5955 door panel #16 still has the old "Please keep hands" letter stickers on it......look for it.
Is there anywhere on an active line we can still find one of the old-style signs, "Do not enter or cross upon the tracks"?
Whoops, wasn't it, "Do not enter upon or cross the tracks"?
Yes, on the IRT, don't remember which station but might be 23rd on the Lex... I've photographed it.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
For that matter the signs on the Union Tpke station mention the Interboro Parkway, which has been called the Jackie Robbinson Pkwy for several years now.
:-) Andrew
But this makes more sense, since everybody still calls it the interboro.
Would you complain that the signs on the B, D, F, Q in Manhattan point to 6th Avenue and not Avenue of the Americas?
I don't call 6th Av that longer version, neither does the subway. How could it be displayed on the R46 signs if they referred to 6th Avenue like that?
F AV OF AMER LCL? I don't think so. The L train station is still 6th Avenue as well. It's just easier to say "6th Avenue" (4 syllables) than it is to say "Avenue of the Americas" (9 syllables).
There are even "6th Ave." street signs along with the official "Av. of Americas" signs. I've never heard anyone refer to it as anything except 6th Ave.
IIRC the R-32s had "D-Av of Americas Express" side route signs at one time. I could be wrong, though.
The elevator at 168th still says "A B level". Nw that was 4 years ago (It seems this may be cut out in the metal, and thus hard to replace)
I got a better one. On the downtown upper level platform at 145th Street, there are a couple of signs pointing to the stairs for the lower level reading:
Downtown & Brooklyn (C)(D)
And to top it all off, a (C) train was arriving when I took the picture!
Click here to see it (20.0-27).
Most maps on the Boston T still show the "E" branch of the Green Line terminating at Arborway.
And this morning I rode a CTA Red Line train that was apparently bound for Ford City. :-)
-- David
Chicago, IL
Well, if it stayed on the elevated structure instead of using the State St. subway, it could wind up there.
Not for a while. The Ford City extension hasn't even been built yet. :-)
-- David
Chicago, IL
On the upper-level downtown local platform (C,E) at West 4th Street, some (but not all) of the new platform-edge signs say "Downtown via 3 Av Local" (yes, Third!!!).
Even if this is a typo, mistaking a 3 for an 8, where are the supervisors, the station masters and superintendents? How do signs like that get installed in the first place? They've been there for a few months.
The funny thing about that one is that even when the sign is right it's wrong. The (A)(C)(E) run down Sixth Avenue south of West 4th St, while the (B)(D)(F)(Q) turn down Houston. But then, if they posted it that way it might be even more confusing than the current system. Maybe if you called the lower "8th Ave" the Church St line or something.
:-) Andrew
Gee that's amusing. Like the time when the new white and black signs were installed featuring the following gaffs.
34th St on the Broadway BMT subway...........PATH Trains
PCRR
That's PCRR as in Penn Central Railroad.
The street entrance to the Bway-7th Ave 34th st/Penn Station sign at 7th and 33rd said......34th St-Penn Sta
(1)(2)(3)(9)
CONRAIL-LIRR-Amtrak
Path trains to New Jersey
I Photographed this after Conrail got out of the commuter rail business. It should have read NJ TRansit. These signs have since been corrected.
Bill "Newkirk"
Uh-oh. Oops!
Uh-oh. Oops!
In general, signs in the subway for MN or LIRR stations are either inaccurate or less than helpful. There are signs in both the Lafayette Ave. stop on the C and the Fulton St. stop on the G indicating that there's an LIRR stop in the general vicinty, but you'd *never* find it going on that alone.
Well, it is two blocks away from the Fulton St "G" stop. Finding the correct way to walk can be tricky.
There was (maybe still is) a sign at Fulton pointing to the JFK express. Pic on my website.
If you're talking about the one by the 4/5, it's gone. Disappeared in the rehab.
PATH fare control level at WTC, next to the Internet kiosk-- there's a "current" subway map, showing the JFK Express!
I have a few pictures of the April Fools' Day field trip with #4 Sea Beach Fred. I only have a few in the album at this time but I'll be adding more soon. Go to http://photos.yahoo.com/jeffalterman so you can view the photos.
BMTJeff
I don't see any pictures up there.
There might be a problem with the website at this time. Try again. I might also try to put them somewhere else if I can.
BMTJeff
This is an independant film by unknown director Marc Singer who documented the homeless living under Penn Station and the subway system in NYC. It is shot in Black in white, has sceens from around NYC and dipicts the brutal horror of being homeless. You really get to appreciate what you have coming out of this documentary. Many shots of the tracks with the trains going by.
I'm from Montreal, it is now playing here. I was wondering if anybody else had seen it and if it was playing in NYC? If so, must see!!
Newsday's article:
http://www.newsday.com/news/daily/mta501.htm
Am I repeating a posting someone else has already provided?
Keeping signage up to snuff is a complicated task, but I'm glad people are pointing attention to a lapse here.
Also, printed maps are often wrong and incomplete regarding ADA access (a pet issue of mine). This is not trivial, since I've witnessed people nearly injure themselves at a station which did have an elevator - only they didn't know to look for one.
On the positive side, MTA did update its printed maps last November regarding ADA stations.
While E-Mailing one of my railfan buddies I met while in New York, it occurred to me one suggestion that might even make sense coming from me. To wit, how come nothing is in the works to extend the subway system, or build a spur to LaGuardia or Kennedy Airports? I remember last April 1 when I barely made it to me flight at LaG because the bus I hopped on in Jackson Heights took forever to get through all those lights and stop signs getting to the airport. It would seem more convenient if an El train or subway could get customers to the airports more quickly and efficiently. I'd appreciate your take on this my fellow railfans.
No offense but, read the "airtrain" threads....
-Dave
Ooops Dave. Offense on me. I did not read them thinking they were concerning themselves with something in the air. My goof.
You're joking, right? Have you been following the numerous threads on this?
Well, I agree wholeheartedly with you.
Here is what we have now:
1) AirTrain connecting JFK terminals to the subway and LIRR in '02 and '03
2) Howard Beach converted to full airport and ADA access
Active proposals at MTA, study phase and construction money available in Capital Plan:
-Extension of N subway to LaGuardia. Still has political hurdles to overcome. Could be built if those political hurdles are overcome. Otherwise, alternatives include use of 63rd St branch, or branch north under Steinway Street then east.
Also: E train tail tracks close to LIRR ROW; theoretically possible to extend to JFK but probably won't. I personally would favor some E train extension southeast, because southeast Queens would get more new subway service.
Active proposals at MTA, study phase and construction money available in Capital Plan:
-Extension of N subway to LaGuardia. Still has political hurdles to overcome. Could be built if those political hurdles are overcome.
"Overcoming the political hurdles" = making extortionate payments to the people living along the proposed elevated extension (fortunately, just a few blocks) so they won't file lawsuits and endlessly delay the project.
"Overcoming the political hurdles" = making extortionate payments to the people living along the proposed elevated extension
(fortunately, just a few blocks) so they won't file lawsuits and endlessly delay the project."
I hate it, too, but short of deporting NIMBYs to Siberia and renting their apartments exclusively to Subtalkers, options are limited.
Te real world's a bitch, eh?
"Overcoming the political hurdles" = making extortionate payments to the people living along the proposed elevated extension (fortunately, just a few blocks) so they won't file lawsuits and endlessly delay the project.
Tsk, tsk... You New Yorkers have so much to learn from Chicago. :-)
City Hall simply needs to send a few building inspectors over to these people's houses to turn up some dubious building code violations to use as a club over them, or possibly make some appropriate adjustments to their property tax assessments. If they still insist on filing lawsuits, you only need to pull a few strings and insure that the cases were being heard by a judge who owes his career to the "organization." Meanwhile, exploit every legal loophole possible to proceed with construction. Create a few new loopholes if you need to.
It would also help to keep plans for the extension under wraps for as long as possible, and then annouce plans for construction approximately two hours before construction actually begins. Give the NIMBY's as little time as possible to react. If you absolutely must have public hearings, make sure they're not well-publicized, and hold them in Antarctica. If NIMBY's still find their way to the hearing and yell and scream at you, smile politely and tell them you understand their concerns without giving any specifics. Then proceed with construction as planned. If their local city council member raises a fuss, make sure a few of his cronies get a piece of the construction action, or play "let's make a deal" and agree to fix all the potholes in his district. If he is actually a man of integrity and doesn't play along, see to it that he is crushed in the next election by a loyal team player.
Not the most democratic process in the world, but it's how things work in the City That Works. Chicago would have had that LaGuardia extension built decades ago. :-)
-- David
Chicago, IL
I don't know whether to clap or throw up. I visited Chicago in 1998 and was deeply impressed. It is a clean city now, and the people are very friendly. That was amazing. But dirty politics that screw innocent people is not my idea of democracy, and while it would not work in New York, I know it wouldn't in California either. There has to be a better way. Embittering people and payoffs is not the way to run a city. I'm sure Chicago's greatness is due to many other factors. Besides if you read up on your history Chicago didn't exactly get it done in 1968 when your late Mayor Daley tried to muscle anti-war protesters and the result was a bloody riot that made Chicago for a time the laughing stock of the country.
My posting was mostly tongue-and-cheek. That said, City Hall has a pretty good track record for making NIMBY opposition go away, particularly when it threatens a pet project. Nobody ever said it was a pretty process.
-- David
Chicago, IL
"City Hall simply needs to send a few building inspectors over to these people's houses to turn up some dubious building code
violations to use as a club over them, or possibly make some appropriate adjustments to their property tax assessments. If they
still insist on filing lawsuits, you only need to pull a few strings and insure that the cases were being heard by a judge who owes
his career to the "organization." Meanwhile, exploit every legal loophole possible to proceed with construction. Create a few
new loopholes if you need to."
There are elements of that practiced in Philly - but SEPTA never seems to benefit from it.
No joke Ron. I honestly (or stupidly) belived Airtrain had something to do with something in the sky. The name air threw me. Well before I go off on a tangent I will read all the posts.
I didn't mean that to be harsh, only comical. I apologize.
This makes so much sense it hurts.
E_DOG
Forget it. This is NYC we are talking about.
While direct train to the plane routes are needed, if the M60 was utilized correctly, people might actually ride it! I had the same problem on the M60 except I left plenty of extra time when I rode it. In fact, the first time (out of 2) that I rode it, there were no problems.
The M60 is a handy route, providing intermodal east-west service from Manhattan. It's a good route, deserving of improvements. But we still need rail access to LGA.
But until that rail access is built, the M60 is our only alternative from Manhattan that reaches almost every subway line in the city.
What about the Q33? At the risk of turning this into something that belongs on BusTalk, which one is faster? M60 or Q33? I rode the Q33 to and from the LGA with no problems. Of course, it was on a Saturday and Sunday that I rode it, so that might make a difference. I never rode the M60.
I don't know. Haven't actually ridden the M60 (did ride the Q48 once).
They should extend the subway to the airports. How about an extension from the Astoria line to LaGuardia and an extend from around Howard Beach to JFK and special trains can run on both lines. This would be a cost effective way to provide door to door service from Midtown-Manhattan to both of the airports and no special equipment would be needed and it might even be faster than a taxicab.
BMTJeff
Amtrak was founded (May 1, 1971).
Yes, indeed. Amtrak, otherwise known as the National Railroad Passenger Corp.
Thanks for posting that.
And that was two days before I was born. (In other words, I'm two days away from my 30th Birthday.)
:-) Andrew
Look out! It's a killer!!
E_DOG
I entered high school in the fall of 1971.
May 7, 1967 was another milestone date for me. It was on that date that I was treated to an earful for the first time from an express roaring past 81st St. along CPW. Later that day, I caught a glimpse of backlit "Coney Island" side destination signs on a prewar D train.
So much RR history in May whether transit or long distance? The first transon connection made near Ogden, UT I believe (Promontory Point)the date for a fact May 10, 1869.
Maybe there was a reason I was born in May....May 5, el cinco de mayo is a big holiday in Mexico. Oh well...58 this time around.
Hey I'm in the 58 window too. Know the feeling.
Today's anniversaries (May 1st):
Current F service via the lower level between Avenue X and Stillwell Av begins 5/1/20.
IRT service extended from Boro Hall to Atlantic Av on 5/1/08.
Other anniversaries in May:
Culver Shuttle closes 5/13/75.
IRT Extension from 145 St to 148 St-Lenox Term opens on 5/13/68.
Current IRT Extension from 111 St to Willets Point opens 5/14/27.
Subway service begins on the Dyre Av Line 5/15/41.
J/Z Extension from Cypress Hills and 111 St opens 5/28/17 (note: 168 St ext. opened July 3,1918)
Upper level between West 8 St and Stillwell Av opens 5/29/19.
Newer construction replaces older construction between Ocean Pkwy and West 8 St on 5/30/17.
Nassau St BMT service begins between Chambers St and the Montague St Tunnel starts on 5/30/31.
Canarsie Line service extended from 6 Av to 8 Av on 5/30/31.
IRT service begins between Hunts Point Av and 177 St-Parkchester on 5/30/20.
Not to be off topic but another New York City landmark opened this day as well; the Empire State Building in 1931. I've read that from its 86th story observatory you could track a Third Avenue El train from the Bowery up to Spanish Harlem.
E_DOG
Not to be off topic but another New York City landmark opened this day as well; the Empire State Building in 1931. I've read that from its 86th story observatory you could track a Third Avenue El train from the Bowery up to Spanish Harlem.
Quite possible, as there weren't many tall buildings outside the Wall Street area at the time.
Interesting historical note: the ESB was known in its early years as the Empty State Building, having opened during the depths of the Great Depression.
It stayed that way until WWII. It seems that being hit by a B-25 in 1945 didn't hurt business. That said, if the Third Avenue El existed today, you'd have a hard time seeing it at all.
Eric D. Smith
It is said that elevators didn't go past the 35th floor - except for the ones going to the observatory. They would turn on lights in vacant offices on upper floors at night to give the impression the building had greater occupancy than in actuality.
The Fulton Street bus hit the Empire State? Kind of off course-
Seriously, the building probably remained under-occupied by the double impacts of the Depression and the war, both of which depleted the white-collar workforce.
It's funny how it took less than two years to complete the building, but the three-station Archer extension took over ten. Especially when you consider all the advancements in engineering and technology that did not yet exist in 1930!
Could it be those miserable unions?
And of course, how could anyone forget:
MAY DAY!
Any transit history on November 7?
Sorry, I couldn't find anything for Nov.7th.
Closest ones were:
#7 line begins service between Hunters Point Av and Queensboro Plaza on 11/5/16.
#1 service extended from 145 St to 157 St on 11/12/04.
Do R142A cars have the philosophical equivalent of the
old inshot valves? I ask because I have observed that under
moderate to heavy service applications, I can hear the brake
shoes squealing even at 20 MPH or so. Pelham Bay Dave and
other m/m: have you been seeing friction brake lights come
on under these circumstances? Train Dude and other CE types:
should they? I would think at 20 MPH the friction brakes should
still be held off.
Those friction brakes squeal like a scene out of Deliverance
and when they reach the final stop, either they are locking
the wheels for the last 6-12 inches, or they are just chattering
really badly. Of course, this is only when t/o make their final
stop at full service, which is a reprehensible practice.
>>>Of course, this is only when t/o make their final
stop at full service, which is a reprehensible practice.<<<
Any T/O who consistently performs full service stops should have their handles taken away and placed in the middle of the train where they belong. They are an embarrassment to the system.
Sometime on the R68's & A's you have to use full serivec to stop the train. They sometime just don't want to stop. esp. at slow sppeds.
Robert
Sometimes is ok, otherwise you can overshoot a marker. I do it if necessary. But not every stop like a few that I know.
I been hearing this alot on Subtalk reading these postings. First off, which branch? Second is this really gonna happen? or is it just talk like the 2nd avenue subway
That would be the Atlantic branch that goes through Locust Manor, Laurelton and Rosedale. Here's a picture as the branch diverges southeast from the Main Line just east of Jamaica
Luv those signal cables Bob !!!
Bill "Newkirk"
If you are referring to the Atlantic Branch (from Jamaica to the Nassau County border) as Bob Andersen says, I would say it is a dead letter.
In short, its time has passed. It was to carry subway trains from the Archer Avenue subway (I forget which level) to southeastern Queens. Much of the connection has been built. I recall watching its construction over a period of many months while riding in on the LIRR. However, two outside events have occurred which probably doom it. First, the FRA has stiffened regulations about running compliant and non-compliant equipment on the same line. So there is no longer any possibility of running both LIRR and NYCT on the same tracks, Second is that the LIRR service needs have changed so that it isn't possible for the Long Island to give up the line completely to subway service, which would be necessary in order to avoid conflict with the FRA.
I can see only two ways that this could possibly be pulled out. One would be for NYCT to take over the entire LIRR Rockaway Branch (and possibly reconnect at Far Rockaway--wouldn't SubTalkers love THAT). But this is currently illegal under NYS Public Authorities Law and I believe it would politically unpopular anyway.
The other way would be if the line could be broadened to 4 tracks so that LIRR and subway trains could be operationally separate. I don't think the current right-of-way is near wide enough, and the expense of acquisition and construction would be too high, plus who know what the local community would think of it.
I suppose since the subways and the LIRR share the same parent agency, the MTA could tunnel beneath the ROW to create a new subway line while leaving the commuter rail link intact. More expensive to be sure, but the IND was able to build beneth the BMT's Fulton St. el 65 years ago, so it's not unprecedented.
But the original idea for the line was to get a new subway service cheap, and burrowing under the current line sure ain't cheap.
I know. The advantage, such that it is, would be presumably to avoid having to dig under regular streets and displace the cable, phone, water, gas and sewer lines less by following the LIRR's right-of-way.
It's certainly not as cheap than just taking over the LIRR line or even widening the ROW to handle four tracks (like WMATA's Red Line north of the Beltway), but cheaper than following the established streets, and less likely to incur the normal NIMBY assault.
"I suppose since the subways and the LIRR share the same parent agency, the MTA could tunnel beneath the ROW to create a new subway line while leaving the commuter rail link intact"
The subway was tunneled under the LIRR and ends south of the LIRR approach to Jamaica. I and other hearty railfans went on an ERA "walking tour" of the entire Archer Ave subway, both levels before the subway opened in the mid 80's.
The upper level (E)past Jamaica Center decends goes under the LIRR and ascends then stops. I was there and photographed this tunnel. Not sure if trains can access these tracks that far or is there a bumping block back towards Jamaica Center.
Bill "Newkirk"
Three trains can be stored on each track in the back of Parsons/Archer on the upper level. That makes it about 2000-2100 feet of tunnel( 1 train = 600 feet x 3 = 1800 + about another 2-300 feet from the station to the first train) to the bumping block and the tunnel only goes about 50 feet past the block. There is an emergency exit back there that mentions South road, I believe. It can be very treacherous walking through the trains back there. The banks on the curves are great and it is hard to keep your balence if you walk to fast. Like one has been drinking. The lower level only holds one train 480 feet in length and continues straight on Archer Ave. At the very back one can see in the roadbed that a provision was made for a diamond crossover. The provision only goes half way before ending at the wall
That's a great post. Very informative, answers questions I hadn't thought to ask before.
Thank you very much.
Oh, it was the upper level of Archer Avenue you're referring to. The lower level, the J train, has tail tracks continuing a short ways down Archer Avenue.
Maybe on day they could extend it to Merrick Blvd, or a little further...
IIRC the J/Z line was supposed to continue to Hollis.
I would have it go to Belmont via Archer, Jamaica and Hempstead Avenues.
Maybe one day it will, or get part of the way there. Never give up hope. :0)
What pubic authorities law (typo intended)? I thought the MTA could operate anywhere in the twelve county MTA district, and that both the MTA and NYCTA are STATE agencies.
"Public Authorities Law, Chapter 43-A of the Consolidated Laws of the State of New York, Article 7, Title 15 - New York City Transit Authority."
Despite the erstwhile taste for granting broad powers to super-authorities, these powers don't abrogate the laws that created the constituent agencies, just as the merging of railroads don't negate leases of the predecessor roads, or even necessarily eliminate their corporate existence.
MTA is the umbrella agency. NYCTA is still a separate organization, and it is a public benefit agency for the benefit of the City of New York.
There is also the Lower Montauk Branch, which is the direct route for diesel trains between Jamaica and Long Island City. It sees very few trains per day, and IMHO it would be perfect for some kind of subway service.
Even that, however, would require electrification, some building of stations, removal of grade crossings, and connections to existing lines. Still, the tracks are already there, and you can't tell me the LIRR really needs them. It seems like too good a thing to pass up.
The way I would do it is to have something branching off the 53rd St tunnel just "south" (west) of 23-Ely (the tunnel will some capacity freed up when the F vacates it), then head down south into the existing line, with connections to the 7 at Hunterspoint and the G at 21-Van Anst. Then it would go along with as few stations as we could get away with (one should connect it to the M) then have it merge with the J/Z in Richmond Hill. Or maybe it could turn down Hillside and merge with the F before Sutphin.
That would be a significant and much-needed boost to capacity.
:-) Andrew
That's a great idea, actually. It frees the LIRR to send diesel equipment elsewhere, and gives the MTA an opportunity to clean up the route - eliminate trash, debris, close gate crossings, build sound walls, plant greenery, maybe even put part of the line in a box and create public green space above it (like Boston's Big Dig), provide a whole new set of ADA-compliant stations -in short, do a lot of cool things that might even win over NIMBYs.
Unfortunately, it has a price tag. But it is a cool idea. First step is to win over the politicians representing the area. Who knows...
:0)
The Montauk Line in the City is a major, major freight operation. Using it for subway service, while it has been proposed (other proposals for it have included light rail and road-rail buses) would be incredibly expensive these days. You would need at least three tracks where in some places you only have one (2 subway, 1 dedicated freight). You would have to deal with grade crossings and freight facilities on both sides of the track.
Oh, and did I mention a hostile local community...
Paul is right. The community did kill it. The MTA went around Queens back in 1984 for input about additional construction to reach more Queens riders while at the same time easing Queens Blvd. Several ideas were floated around.
NO ADDITIONAL CONSTRUCTION: End the subway at 21 St.
QUEENS BY-PASS EXPRESS: This plan had 2 by-pass tracks from 71 St/Continental Ave. through to the 21 St. connection. The plan is rather vague but appears to run along the LIRR mainline after leaving the subway at 71 St. Stations were planned for Woodside and then Northern Blvd. before connecting into 21 St. Service would be provded from both 179 St. and Parsons/Archer to 6 Ave and 7 Ave/Broadway.
QUEENS BLVD. LOCAL CONNECTION: This is what we have today (21 St. to Queens Blvd.). A note: Even way back then they already had their plans to cut the G at Court Square. It is mentioned.
SUBWAY/LIRR MONTAUK TRANSFER: This plan called for the extension of the 21 St. tunnel a little further to a transfer station in Sunnyside yard. Passengers would then transfer to Queens oriented LIRR service that would operate to the Atlantic branch and Hollis and Queens Village on the main line. This would require the Montauk line to be electrifed. Trains would make stops at Richmond Hill and it is mentioned that trains for mainline stations would not be stopping at Jamaica.
MONTAUK/ARCHER AVENUE SUBWAY: With this last alternative, subway service would be provided on the Montauk line. Trains from 6 Ave. and 7 Ave./Broadway would use the 63 St. tunnel to 21 St., through Sunnyside yard to the Montauk line with stops at Sunnyside, Fresh Pond Road, Woodhaven Blvd. and Richmond Hill. At Richmond Hill, the subway would leave the Montauk line and connect to the Archer Avenue subway. It is not mentioned but one can assume that the subway would connect to the Jamaica elevated to reach the Archer Ave. subway. 121 St. is not mentioned as a stop. The stickler with this plan is that the J line would be cut back and terminate at Crescent. St. Once again, this plan would have called for the Montauk line to be electrified.
Back then, the LIRR wasn't too high on the freight business but now that the New York and Atlantic is around, it is a different story. With renewed interest in freight and carloads slowly increasing, it would be harder to get the Montauk now. By the way, did Paul mention the community? NIMBY.
One further comment about the community opposition. This has shifted over the years. Originally I would say mostly ethnic/racial. In the 60's it would probably have been expressed in, say, Maspeth, as "My community hasn't undergone the changes in much of the rest of the City, including racial change and increases in crime. If we get a subway, it will."
My more recent observation suggests that a modern statement would be more classically NIMBY, i.e., "I've got a railroad in my backyard now. I'd like to see them close it. I'm sure as hell not going to stand for them doing anything to make it busier.
"My more recent observation suggests that a modern statement would be more classically NIMBY, i.e., "I've got a railroad in
my backyard now. I'd like to see them close it. I'm sure as hell not going to stand for them doing anything to make it
busier. "
Overcoming that is not impossible. It is a challenge. Here are some steps which public authorities have found helpful:
1) Understand that NIMBY does not equal COMMUNITY. Too many people make the mistake of thinking that a few loudmouths represent the whole community. They don't.
2) Finding out who the "opinion leaders" are and why they think the way they do. Not everyone (not even a majority) is against a subway.
3) Coming up with specific answers to legitimate problems which the neighborhood "opinion leaders" and others have.
4) Appointing a critic to a panel with some delegated power to make decisions over routing, improvements, stations.
5) Providing specific inducements and concessions which the local elected officials have identified are important, and associating them with it. This is not simply "buying off" - this is often also a way to give the community something it genuinely needs and wants, as well as getting a vital project done.
4) Communication, communication, communication
5) Offering specific concessions to people, and meeting them face-to-face, one on one, to put a "human face" to the project. (Invite them to a lunch meeting at the MTA.)
6) Realizing that some NIMBYs will remain - allow them to vent, celebrate and respect their First Amendment rights - and move on with the project.
For example, the quote above may reflect as much the cruddy environment around the railroad as the railroad itself. If you ask, "What if we really made this place look pretty and got rid of the noise, and helped you get to work? Would you help us figure out how to do that?" you're answering two of the objections. Noise barriers, a cleanup and planting/landscaping effort, putting part of the track in a big box and putting a park and tennis courts on top of it, are examples of how one might accomplish that.
This is easy for me to post, and damn hard to accomplish (esp. for MTA, it seems) - but not impossible. This is New York, where opinions are like rear ends (everyone has at least one). But it can be done.
1888 was a vintage year. It was the year of the Great Blizzard and it was the year Benjamin Harrison won the presidency while losing the popular vote (sound familiar?). It was also the year that three great elevated lines were opened in Brooklyn; the Fulton Street, the Myrtle Avenue, and Broadway Els. The first two lines are, like practically everyone else living in that year, dead and gone. Yet happily the Broadway El endures. Let us resolve to do all that we can to keep it that way.
Eric D. Smith
Boy oh boy, where to begin...
My evening commute, normally via the CTA Red Line from Jackson to Berwyn, got off to a normal start. I even managed to get a decent seat next to a cute young lady as I boarded at Jackson. One of the advantages of getting on at Jackson is that since it's the first downtown stop for northbound trains, one can usually grab a seat before the train fills to capacity at subsequent stops.
This evening the train was unusually crowded because of a large number of people headed to the Cubs game at Wrigley Field in addition to the normal evening rush crowd.
We proceeded normally up past Clark/Division before stopping abruptly in the tunnel before getting to North/Clybourn. After standing there for a while (I forget how long, since I was dozing in and out of sleep at this time), we proceeded to North/Clybourn, made the station stop, and proceeded onward. We abruptly stopped again about 200 feet short of the subway portal at Willow, and stayed there. No word from the T/O about what was causing the delay.
After about fifteen minutes of standing there in the tunnel like this, the air conditioning and interior lights go out. At the same time, a set of work lights hung from the tunnel wall went out. It was pretty obvious that the third rail power had been cut off. The only light sources were from the emergency lights above each door, and the tunnel lights. Without air circulation, the interior of the crowded subway car quickly became very stuffy.
We all sat there like that for the next half hour. The only announcement from the T/O was the occasional pre-recorded message that went something like, "Your attention please. We are being delayed due to a medical emergency. Rescue personel have been notified, and we expect to be moving shortly." This canned announcement repeated itself a few times over the next half-hour.
Finally, with air inside the car almost to a suffocating level, passengers at each end of the car propped open the storm doors in hopes of getting some fresh air. Before long, others had pulled the emergency-release knob above each of the side doors and opened them up as well.
After sitting like this for a few more minutes, people were growing increasingly restless, and finally a few left the train altogether and walked down the emergency walkway to the tunnel portal, which was visible from the train. With my bladder growing increasingly full from a long day of drinking instant iced tea at the office, I said hell with it and made my way down the walkway as well. I knew there were a set of emergency exit doors just beyond the portal, so I took off in that direction. By this time there was a steady stream of several dozen people all walking through the tunnel. I passed the operator's cab at the front of the train, and the T/O was sitting in his seat and facing forward with sort of a blank stare as the passengers filed past his window.
As I got past the portal, there was another Red Line train on the el up ahead, with its doors open and a number of people on the tracks walking back toward the emergency exit or forward to the next station at Armitage. In addition, there was a Brown Line train on the el directly overhead, also with people on the catwalk beside the train.
I exited the ROW at the emergency exit, and continued walking north through the alley under the el toward Armitage. As I got closer to Armitage, I noticed several Chicago firefighters up on the el, shouting at people to get back on their trains. Up at the Armitage stop, there was a Purple Line train standing in the station up above, and a lot of water dripping from the el structure in the immediate vincinity. I got out onto the street, which had several fire trucks, ladder trucks, and about a million cops standing around. The station house was roped off with yellow police tape, and the street under the el was covered with water. The sulphuric smell of an electrical fire was hanging in the air. I asked a cop what had happened, and he confirmed that a train had caught on fire.
I ducked into a neighborhood bar and relieved myself, and headed back out to the street to watch the action. The northbound Purple Line train standing in the station above was dark and empty with all the doors open, but with no visible damage that I could see. As best as I could tell, the consist was as follows:
(north) 2590-2589-2568-2567-2548-2547 (south)
Based on the location of the cluster of firefighters and CTA personel standing up on the el, car 2548 appeared to be the fire victim.
The local CBS affiliate had a TV news crew interviewing people, and I listened in on what they were saying. According to one passenger, the car was filling up with smoke, and once in the station at Armitage, somebody notified the T/O via emergency intercom that there appeared to be a fire. The T/O walked back to the car in question, apparently shrugged his shoulders, and then went back to his cab and began to pull the train out of the station. At this point somebody pulled the emergency release for the doors and held them open to prevent the T/O from closing them as passengers evacuated the car.
The reporter then asked me about what I saw, so I told him about being stuck on the Red Line train back in the tunnel, and everybody leaving the train via the emergency exit. Apparently this will be broadcast on the 10:00 PM news tonight, so Chicago SubTalkers just may see me on TV tonight.
By the time we finished up here, third rail power was restored, and CTA personel were attempting to pull the disabled train out of the station. After a couple of false starts they finally got it moving, although a few of the wheels seemed to be dragging as it pulled out.
They finally re-opened the station, and I made my way up to the platform. I took the next Purple Line train up to Fullerton and transferred back to the Red Line there. My Red Line ride from there on was rather uneventful until we got to Lawrence, where our T/O gave us about ten seconds notice that he was running express to Loyola. Those of us who were getting off before Loyola got off the train while grumbling a few choice phrases directed at the CTA, and after a few minutes yet another Red Line train took me to my home station of Berwyn.
So that's my evening commute in a nutshell... It only took four trains and two hours longer than normal to get home. Chalk up another one to the brain trust at the CTA. (On a positive note, at least the escalator at Jackson is now operational. It had been out of order since at least early March.)
-- David
Chicago, IL
I just watched the CBS news at 10:00, and they actually showed my little mini-interview! Kudos to WBBM-TV for obviously having the good taste to grace their airwaves with my handsome face and voice.
One of the other people who I watched them interview turned out to be none other than Krank Kruesi, president of the CTA. Unfortunately, I didn't know it was him at the time, and didn't think to check if he arrived by rail, bus, or stretch limo.
In the newscast, they mentioned that in addition to the incident at Armitage, there was a track fire on the Red Line at Chicago Avenue which also caused significant delays. Hell of an evening to be a CTA passenger, I guess.
-- David
Chicago, IL
where is Aaron Renn when we need him?
I saw ya on the 12:30 rebroadcast. If I ever see you on a train I'll say whassup!
Knowing CTA, people were still getting on downtown expecting regular service. Those train people, they have a hard time using the telephone
You didn't mention, didja get your $1.50 fifty back? LOL
We NYers had better stop complaining for a while. We've had a few 15 minute delays here and there, but I haven't had a ride like THAT one since the early 1990s.
If such a situation were to occur in the NYC Subway system, how easy would it be to get out of the car and walk to the next station (let alone open the doors for circulation)? Am I wrong, or is there no "emergency" door-opening mechanism in our rolling stock which is accessible by passengers? Okay, if you were on an R-32, 33, 36, 38, or 40, I guess you could use the end storm-door (but it still would be hard to bypass the safety chains to get to the emergency walkway), but what about an R-44, 46, 62, or 68? Those end-doors are locked. I would hate to be stuck in one of our cars if it were on fire. I wouldn't know how to get out! What am I forgetting?
The windows in the end doors of the 75 foot cars have no metal frame around them. They can be kicked out quite easily in the event of an emergency. The TA does not advertise this fact, however, for obvious reasons. So, people should hope that they have a railfan in the car that they are in, in the event of emergency.
BTW R62s do not have their end doors locked.
Peace,
ANDEE
BTW R62s do not have their end doors locked.
Whoops, you're right. My mind was on the B-division, and the R-68 and R-62 are roughly the same vintage.
I assume the emergency switch located at the end of each 75 foor car is still there and operable and would unlock the storm door in an emergency. They had a seal on them originally, guess they still do but what to break the seal with is another story. The 75 foot cars were a great idea and have their place..in history as well, but NO train on ANY railroad whether outdoors or underground should have passage from one car to another restricted. Therefore the return to 60 foot cars is fitting if less efficient.
On the Chicago scene as much as I love their L I hate to think of the danger in walking those tracks. Admittedly Mr. Cole's train was stuck in the subway but for those who haven't seen most of the original Chicago L lines between close clearances, uncovered 3rd rail and no side catwalksyou wouldn't want to have to walk them.
emergency switch located at the end of each 75 foot car
Where is this switch? I can see the emergency cord, but I've never seen this...
Therefore the return to 60 foot cars is fitting if less efficient.
Seems to me, 60 foot cars are more efficient than 75-footers. Results in more doors/train (provided you're running a full consist) for entering & exiting.
I remember wondering the same thing when I rode the NYC subway for the first time. Seems like many of those cars would be potential death traps in the event of a serious fire or accident. The CTA's own emergency-release devices were the direct result of a collision between a tanker truck and streetcar in which a large number of people were incinerated inside the streetcar, unable to escape. I shudder to think what would happen if a NYC subway train caught fire underground during the height of evening rush hour, with people unable to escape the train.
As for other transit systems, I know Boston's Green Line cars have an emergency release lever at each set of doors. The storm doors on the heavy rail cars are normally locked, but there's an emergency release lever that will unlock them and also activate the emergency brake. I also seem to recall small access panels above some of the side doors of the Bombardier 01800's, but I don't recall if they were labeled as emergency door-release devices or not.
I don't specifically remember seeing any emergency door-release devices on the London Tube, but then, since the tunnel wall is usually only six inches away from the train on each side, being able to open the side doors would be sort of a moot point in most cases. God forbid there's a serious fire or terrorist bombing down there someday.
I guess what was most appalling about this situation was not the fact that the fire occurred -- I mean, shit happens even on the best transit systems -- but the utter lack of information or direction from CTA personel. And by "information or directions," I mean more than just a pre-recorded announcement apologizing for the delay. That may be fine for a short delay while waiting for a signal to change, but 45 minutes in a dark, crowded train with no air circulation calls for more of a response. In situations like that, the CTA shouldn't be so shocked that passengers decided to take matters into their own hands. Luckily there we no injuries from this whole ordeal and there was no sense of panic, but if such a situation were to occur tomorrow, the lack of direction from the train crew could lead to a far worse situation than the initial cause of the delay.
-- David
Chicago, IL
How do the emergency handles on the MBTA trains work?
Theres a ring and a long handle. A lable saids "Emergency Brake and End Door Unlock".
"Chalk up another one to the brain trust at the CTA."
Eh?! Shit happens. People get sick on trains, or a crime happens on a train, or something flammable is thrown on the tracks. Even well-maintained equipment develops problems once in a while. When a car overturns on the expressway and a commute that normally takes an hour takes more than two, somehow that doesn't result in people blaming IDOT.
"Those of us who were getting off before Loyola got off the train while grumbling a few choice phrases directed at the CTA,"
Because they were running a train express? Waah. If they DIDN'T run some trains express, someone would be complaining that the CTA was stupid, idiotic, mismanaged, etc., etc., for not taking simple measures to get things back to normal. It's human nature for people to dislike an express run that skips their station, but by definition an express has to skip SOMEBODY'S stop, and the trains aren't going to return to normal by running every Red train local as if nothing happened.
I remember that, about a decade ago, there was a period of a few years when CTA would NEVER run a train express no matter how bad the incident and no matter how much it had screwed up the schedule. It wasn't a publicized policy announced in the newspapers or with signs in the stations, but its existence was clear all the same. And when people sat on sardine-can trains making every stop after a half-hour sick passenger delay, they weren't grateful that CTA wasn't skipping their stop, they were complaining that CTA wasn't running the train express. For myself, I'm GLAD that the CTA, for whatever reason, dropped the "nothing happened, keep all trains local" policy.
Before I begin, let me say in advance, if the subject of my post is a Subtalker, I make no apologies for what I am about to say.
I rode LIRR train 2062 from Penn Station this afternoon. First stop is Hicksville - and as such, the train is usually crowded & so I opted to stand at the front window for the ride home. What a mistake. Next to me were two trai buffs. One - the 'smarter of the two' spoke at the top of his lungs, impressing all within ear-shot of his big mouth. They started with a debate about when the 4:49 to Port Jeff switches from electric to Diesel although it was plain by the smoke that they switched as soon as they cleared the portal. They then began an impromptu inspection of the battery compartment latches as we past that train. Then a debate over why we had an approach signal while the port Jeff train had 'clear'. Next a debate over the airtrain terminal followed by a non-related discussion of cable tv and neilsen ratings.
The lesser informed of the dynamic duo kept remarking how the tracks squiggled at interlocking. He also wasn't aware what the mileposts were for and referred to the old Deer Park Station as Dix Hills. Despite his dearth of knowledge - he was still capable of citing dozens of things that the LIRR management was doing wrong. As we left Deer Park, however, the 'smarter' one crossed the line. He said that while on vacation, he was going to the Ronkonkoma station and count the number of illegally parked cars and then find sites where additional spots could be created. Well, that did it. If Brentwood was not the next stop, I would have tossed my cookies.
What I can't figure out is how does the LIRR function with the poor talent they have when these two genius's have all the answers. Anyway - no point here but if they are subtalkers, HEY GUYS, GET A FU@#!N LIFE
Heh. Such behavior is what I had been alluding to in past posts. Don't get me wrong, most railfans are quite respectful of "the church" but then there are some that during my short career made me think often that the old cab doors swung both ways and could flatten a pest against the storm door if kicked hard enough. :)
I remember one early morning northbound ride with a pair of drunks up front, yammering and shouting about this and that, "he's going to overshoot! He's going to overshoot!" while I was crawling past the 6 car marker (10 cars) and a number of other loud, less than useful comments. Then began the kicking on the door, "Hey! I wanna show my buddy the cab!" ... all this crossing the 59th St interlocking with a consist full of dead motors on the uphill coming from 53rd. Good timing, bro ... words cannot describe how much I wanted to put that particular pair out of their misery.
Like I said, most train buffs are quite OK and I actually had fun with a good number of them. But there are some real morons as well. Good thing the TA didn't issue sidearms. Heh.
I agree that the vast majority of railfans and subway buffs are interesting people at the least and that's why these two made such a negative impression. All I wanted to do was get home last night - like most people on that train. I assume less than half really cared whether the battery box doors on a passing train were latched properly, BTW: The one who I referred to as the smarter of the pair is actually a frequent 'letter writer' and so as obnoxious as he can get, the crews seem to avoid any contact with him.
"Railfanning," in general, is at least a harmless hobby, something which even people with poor social skills or difficulties with peers (whatever the cause) can do. A person can pursue it as a solo activity, or find like-minded people to do it with. And you don't need to pass an IQ or sociability test to stand at the front window.
I don't know what was driving these guys, but it sounds like they certainly weren't hurting anyone. Boring the train crews, and you, to be sure, but pretty harmless otherwise.
Absolutely not hurting anyone except maybe those who wanted to shut their eyes and relax. Boring to me - not at all. I had to resist the temptation to jump in and correct the pompus ass who believed he knew everything. I suppose that it bothered me that they were obviously trying to impress others and draw them into their mental masturbation party. You know, I can see taking a trainride during your vacation. I've even gone to visit other shops on some of mine. But to plan on your vacation to count the number of illegally parked cars at Ronkonkoma Station just so you can write a letter about it seems to suggest someone with an over-inflated sense of self-importance. As for me, when I get to the station - I look for a vacant spot. If I find one, I park - if not, I look elsewhere. I could care less how many people park illegally after me as long as they don't block me in. Now if this guy wants to do something really useful, he should go to the Smithhaven mall and monitor the handicapped parking spaces. See if all those people with permits are really handicapped. Thank god for a real life.......
You're lucky you didn't get any drool on you. 8-)
Peace,
ANDEE
I hear you.
I got infuriated once when, while visiting a sci-fi convention (not something I'll do again soon), two guys in front of me in a line were discussing the more esoteric aspects of warp drives, and each one was several orders of magnitude off of "c," the speed of light; worse than that, they were trying to figure out if a glass of water could slow it down. I admit to losing patience with a conversation I had no business in, and yours truly did butt in and say, "Gentlemen, the speed of light, or the constant "c," is approx. 186,200 miles per second, and does not vary with the materials light passes through.
So you see, your behavior was better and more restrained than mine.
Man, that was hilarious. I just feel bad that you actually had to PAY for that ride.
I get it sometimes up front myself but I'm usually able to block it out (practice). It's funny how many "railfans" have absolutely no clue.
As we left Deer Park, however, the 'smarter' one crossed the line. He said that while on vacation, he was going to the Ronkonkoma station and count the number of illegally parked cars and then find sites where additional spots could be created.
Create more parking spots at Ronkonkoma???? That's gotta be the most ridiculous idea I've ever heard!
What's wrong with more parking? Parking is a KEY part of the Park & Ride concept.
I don't know if Peter was being serious or a bit ironic, On the face of it, more spaces would seem like a good idea. Hell, they can put up a 10 story parkin garage and provide 3,000 new spots if the want to. Again you have the self-proclaimed experts who solve one problem and create two others. At deer Park, they had a similar situation. Too many illegally parked cars. So they opened some of the areas adjacent to the woods for additional parking. Only trouble is - Deer Park Station only has access from One street. Come 5 PM, it can take a half hour to get out of the parking area. The few times I've been to Ronkonkoma, it seems that Access from the main lot on the south side is also very limited. The headache of traffic and polution would only be made worse if more parking would be made available without better access.
Now as for this guy's other observations, I think it would be wonderful if he would stand over by Harold Tower and inspect every C-3 car for loose battery box latches on every passing train.
What's wrong with more parking? Parking is a KEY part of the Park & Ride concept.
Because adding more parking at Ronkonkoma will simply encourage more overcrowding on what is already an obscenely overcrowded line. Riders should be encouraged to use the Port Jefferson and Montauk lines, which have plenty of available capacity.
AMEN - Peter. I suppose we're on the same side of the issue albiet for slightly different reasons.
I just began to go through a box of treasures that i received as a gift from a friend of a friend. In it are more than 25 MINT books about Subways, Commuter rails and ELs. Some are old (1940s) and some are more recent. Several Fischler books too. Some of the more intriguing titles are "Gotham Turnstiles", "They Moved Millions", Brooklyn Waterfront railways", Brooklyn Trolleys", "Third Avenue railway System", and "Westchester's Forgotten Railway".
Also included was a certificate from the NYCT issued to those who rode the last train on the Jamaica Elevated. He also included dozens of very old news clippings too. I can see many many weeks of reading ahead & ofcourse I'll pass along any info that might be of interest. Friends are betting that some of these will wind up on E-bay. I tend to doubt it.
Well Steve, I can attest that all of the titles you have mentioned are well worth keeping, as I have all of them in my personal library. Enjoy!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Well, whenever (if) you become interested in parting with anything, please e-mail me. I'd be willing to pay good $$$.
The American Pig and I were conferring over restarting the SubTalk live chats again. We have made another poll and ask that you take it. Provided we get enough responses, further info will be posted.
NOTE: SubTalk Live is open for bus disscussions as well. BusTalkers will be invited.
Click here to take the poll!
Sorry I couldn't place the poll directly into the post. It is a restriction of www.freetools.com.
Thanks, in advance.
REMEMBER: The live chats can only resume with your input. Even if you may not attend on a regular basis, please take the survey!
For whatever it's worth, Oren, it's not registering any of the NO votes... figured I'd chime in, not that I'm opposed in any way to having the chats, but simply that I'm highly unlikely to participate.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
It does seem to be registering the NO votes, but us NO voters are in the minority. I echo Anon_e_mouse by saying not that I'm opposed in any way to having the chats, but simply that I'm highly unlikely to participate.
That isn't the question. The question is if you are or are not averse to holding chats again. Question 5 asks whether you would attend said chats.
I find it fascinating that the IRT Shuttle/7th Ave right-of-way passes under and through the old Times Building as opposed to following under the intersection of 42nd Street and Broadway. Are there other examples of non-standard R.O.W.'s i.e., under buildings? I'd be most grateful if someone who knows would list them here on SubTalk. I suspect that where the shuttle's trackways merge into the IRT Lex line might be under a building.
Thanks folks!
P.S. This is my fist time on SubTalk.
The Tunnel Rat
I posed this question about a year ago. The N/R line goes under No. 1 Broadway between Rector and Whitehall Streets, the 4/5/6 slices under the Grand Hyatt at Grand Central, and the 1/9 and PATH go beneath the World Trade Center complex, though in those cases the subway was there way before the complex eliminated the street pattern.
Also, given the 75-foot turning radius required for the cars, it's pretty likely the IND "cuts corners" for the flying junctions at 53rd Street on Sixth and Eighth Aves. Also, any IND station that has pillars below a building reportedly has those pillars encased in ceramic tiles for fire safety. I think that includes parts of York St. on the F and Hoyt-Schermerhorn on the A/C/G in Brooklyn.
Also at Jay Street on the A/C/F there are columns in ceramic tile.
Encasing columns in concrete when its under buildings is used by ALL divisions. It's part of the NYC fire code and predates 1904.
I believe it is required when certain type of steel is used.
Arti
It seems like the B/D/Q/M/N/R tunnels must go under the Metrotech building just south of DeKalb--the turn coming into the station from the south is too sharp to be all the way back at the intersection of Flatbush and Fulton.
Boston has a few interesting situations like this.
The most significant is the Old State House. This 17th century buillding lies directly above the Blue Line tunnel and a labyrinth of passageways connecting the Blue and Orange Lines. The main entrance to State Station occupies half of the basement, while the Blue Line platforms lie just east of the building and the northbound Orange Line platform lies just to the west. The preservation of this building in 1905 was an early effort to retain the historic while adapting to progress.
Another interesting situation occurs just east of Charles Station on the Red Line where the line goes underground. Grades in the area cause the portal to be above the local grade, so the train goes underground directly from an elevated structure. As it does so, it passes under a house facing a street on the hill. "The only home in Boston with a subway in the basement". From here to Park Street Station, the Red Line passes beneath some of Boston's most expensive real estate, where the Cabots, Pinckneys, Saltonstalls and Lowells regularly complain about the vibrations from the trains deep below. Finally the line passes below the present State House, though there is no shared space in the building.
No longer extant is the Haymarket Relief Station, a clinic once located on the north edge of Haymarket Square. This building ("Quiet! Hospital Zone") predated both the Green and Orange Lines and ended up with SIX tracks underneath, plus a crossover, all in the middle of a curve. All six tracks exited by way of two sets of portals just north of the building. so the depth at that location was minimal. The clinic remained in operation through both periods of construction. It was torn down in the 1950s though most of the site remains vacant and visible today. The former Orange Line portals are now used by a temporary Green Line alignment while that line's subway is extended northward.
The south end of the Orange Line's Washington Street Tunnel also underpinned the buildings on the east side of Washington St. and the south side of Kneeland St. It came to the surface at the rear of these and rose to elevated level on a ramp with a clerestory roof over it. Today the relocated line swings to the west and passes diagonally under the Floating Hospital Building of New England Medical Center where the station of that name lies. The hospital's main building lies atop the original tunnel and portal.
Between Porter and Davis Squares the Red Line also passes under a residential neighborhood in a tunnel constructed in the 1970s.
Finally there is the building at the corner of Harrison Av. and Beach St. This relic has a ground floor which extends right up to the corner but the upper floors follow an arc well back from the street. This was the point where the Atlantic Avenue Elevated turned from Harrison Av. onto Beach St., cutting over the corner lot to increase the radius of the curve. The lower floor contained the entry to Beach Street Station, along with some businesses. The el was torn down in 1942, but the building remains in 2001, one of the few surviving relics of Boston's waterfront el.
Engineers tried to avoid going underneath structures (especially existing structures) wherever possible, both because of the expense and danger of underpining and vibration issues, among others.
For example both 6th and 7th Avenues were extended south when subways were built and their buildings simply demolished. Killed two birds with one stone, so to speak.
But it's impossible to always avoid going under structures, or you'd have to have a lot of trolley-car-like tight curves on the system.
Sometimes structures were built over an existing line whre they didn't exist before. Example, the commercial building on the south side of Church Avenue (D, Q), whose architecture matches the former appearance of the station house on the north side.
Ever tried the library on Steinway St. and Broadway? Every G/R that turns from Broadway to Steinway or vice versa goes right under the library. Kinda hard to enforce the "shhhhhh" if every 4-5 minutes a loud rumbling is heard underneath. I never heard that library quiet.
=)
Greetings, folks! I'm Gerald Davis, here to thank the PTB for all the wonderful NY subway pics that I've been enjoying since going online 6 years ago. I started to join this board way back when. I even drafted a long post to start with, then decided to think again about devoting myself to another discussion board. So I just pop in to grab pix for my desktop.
Part of why I'm so grateful for this site is that it helped inspire my novel that I will now shamelessly promote.
It's called The Soul Trains.
It's a supernatural thriller about a brotha who wakes up dead in a sealed subway system, able to ride trains, unable to exit. He and everyone else who dies. They have to resolve their kharmas, you see. One way or the other. Heaven or Hell the ultimate destinations.
It can be browsed at IUniverse.com, the online print-on-demand publisher I used. It can be purchased ($24.95) at the major online book outlets.
The thing about this site that helped inspire was, of course, the pix. I have a collection I use for wallpaper & slideshow. I was just sitting there looking at them, imagining I was inside the pic (ala that old 'Night Gallery' episode) unable to get out; or inside a real station, or system, where no one can get out because it's a purgatory where they have to resolve their issues from life.
Now that I write all this, I realize to my discredit that I should have included an acknowlegement to this site. I'd considered it at one point, but it turned out that I never used any info from here. It was just the pix that made a light bulb go off.
Anyway fellas, thanks for this site! And, of course, thanks to Mr. Pirmann et al for sharing all their great photos!
Welcome to the group
(nt) means no text. I tried to post this with my mssg as the title, but this system doesn't do that.
anyway, thanks
Reminds me of the movie "Jacob's Ladder." There's a scene in that with Tim Robbins getting off the subway and having trouble getting out of the closed lower level Bergen Street stop. He doesn't stay stuck in the system, but it turns out, he's dead, and the "people" he interacts with, including his "girlfriend," are actually Old Scratch's minions vying for his soul. I thought it was a really good flick, and I saw it before my railfanness came into full-bloom. Loved watching it later for subway content.
The movie is noted in the bibliography section of this site.
Your story sounds interesting, though. I'm sure we have all had "subway dreams" about being stuck in the system, but for us, are they really nightmares? :O)
When I visited the Bay Area, my feeling was it is the second or third best city in the U.S. for transit fans, tied with or slightly ahead of Philadelphia. I cite this with respect to the sheer variety of public transportation in the city: subway, light rail, trackless trolleys, comuter heavy rail, fossil-fuel bus, cable car, pristine PCCs and other vintage trolleys...
On the other hand, I have friends who live in San Francisco proper and still drive to work. They are a married couple who both work in white-collar, office jobs. I questioned them about their (lack of) use of public transport, and they responded that Muni just wasn't convenient. Huh? Oh well, I guess it's hard to crack that typically California attitude that transit is for the poor.
Welcome to the board. You will never be bored here, that's for sure.
--Keystone Pete
Ah, yes, "Jacob's Ladder!"
You might say it was also an, er ah, "inspiration." Or you might say I completely ripped it off! That scene is one of my all-time favorite movie sequences ever!
I dug it so much that I used it in my story, this time from the perspective of a rider inside the ghoul train. My protagonist finds himself on an Express to Hell, and the ghouls suddenly become aware of a bewildered man out on the tracks. Protagonist joins them at a window and sees the man looking up at them as the train passes.
================
Interesting observation about SF's variety of transit. I can't compare it to other cities, but you're right, just about every mode in operation (except monorail) is running in SF.
I agree, your married couple friends are nitwits! No WAAY I'd drive to downtown in SF if I lived in the city. Or lived out of the city. No matter where they live, they are at worst a short drive away from some transit line. They could buy a monthly pass for what it takes to park for two days.
I wouldn't agree that it's a "California" anti-transit attitude. I'd say it's a basic middle-class American attitude. Aren't people just as auto-oriented in, oh, D.C., Atlanta, or Buffalo? Even where a community is urbanized enough to make public transit a mega-funded priority, most of the population doesn't use it.
I have a cousin who was raised in the Bronx, then in her early 30s moved to LA, then to Miami. Now she's in upstate NY. She correctly observed that all places have a general similarity in lifestyle, once you get out of the urban areas. Suburbs, single-family homes, cars.
It was pretty cool. Except for the puke on a seat. I guess that can happen anywhere, tho.
I live in the SF Bay Area. Been riding BART since it started in the early 70s. BART then was sleek and new and modern and computerized. Clean and relatively quiet. Not at all the way I remembered the NY trains, which I sorrowfully left behind when my family moved from Bed-Stuy to Calif in '65.
BART now is a little rougher. Still sleek, but timeworn. Cars are noisier, no longer new, sometimes downright shabby-looking. But it works (which it didn't so well at first), and, with security cams in each car and platform, you feel safer, if you're the unsafe-feeling type.
It was with considerable skepticism that I considered the idea of LA having a subway. All spread out and suburbanized, it would cost a fortune and just couldn't be that effective. Well, it did cost a fortune, and it only has 16 stations. Everyone dubbed it the subway to nowhere.
But Amtrak's Union station is the subway's (creatively called "Metro") terminus. So I spend a day on AMTRAK and used the subway & bus system to get from my downtown hotel room to UCLA for a conference.
The verdict? Hey, it works. 6 am to sometime after midnight, 7 days. At 7:45 am on a saturday, most seats in the 4-car trains were filled. They were at 10 pm the previous night too. Stations clean. Somewhat under-lit tho. the whole expericence was absolutely non-eventful, which, I suppose is as good a mark of success as any for a transit system.
And to think they tore up the Pacific Electric empire just to start over again at hundreds of times the cost.
>>> used the subway & bus system to get from my downtown hotel room to UCLA for
a conference. <<<
From downtown to UCLA there would be very little subway and a lot of buses. Did you take the Wilshire Rapid Bus? If so you got to see the route that the subway should have taken from downtown to Westwood (passing through Century City).
>>> At 7:45 am on a Saturday, most seats in the 4-car trains were filled. They were at 10 pm the previous night too. <<<
The full trains were probably due to the long headway between trains. I am surprised that there were so many riders at 10:00 pm. My own observations were that the trains and stations in the downtown area (and the sidewalks above them) were virtually deserted after 7:00 pm.
Tom
"The full trains were probably due to the long headway between trains. I am surprised that there were so many riders at 10:00
pm. My own observations were that the trains and stations in the downtown area (and the sidewalks above them) were virtually
deserted after 7:00 pm."
The only place downtown which stays busy at night is the Men's Central Jail...
I took the train to the Hollywood/Highland station. It gets me further west, but might have taken as much time as the bus connection would've from Westwood. Then I took a #2 local bus, about a 15-min wait and 27-min ride. In terms of distance, the train covered about half. However, buses use a straighter line from downtown to UCLA, but more time. So, definitely, the train isn't the most efficient mode. Of course, a car could do the whole thing in 10 minutes.
When I mapped this out on LA's metro website, I did check an alt. route from the Wilshire/Western station. there was no option for a Wilshire Rapid bus. Maybe it doesn't run on Sats.
When you say "long" headways, what do you mean? I don't think I waited more than 15 minutes at any time. For night and weekend use, that's about what I expected. But their info never did say just HOW far apart the trains are, weekend or not.
BART runs 20-min headways nights and Suns. 15, I think, on Sats. What are the NY off-peak headways?
To view photo, see eBay Item # 1140972804
I saw a very interesting O Gauge boxcar at the York train meet last week.
It was a custom painted (silkscreened) 40' O gauge boxcar in a shade of tuscan red. It was lettered New York City Transit System (appeared to be Railroad Roman lettering), with BMT reporting letters, and a three digit number. It showed a car assignment of "Return to Coney Island, New York". All of this was printed to the left of the sliding side door.
To the right of the door was a type of herald reading "BMT Lines", in a print vaguely similar to the old BMT Lines signs.
The graphics reminded me of the style of the 1940's. It was nicely done, and was a very professional looking job. While the BMT most likely never had any railroad boxcars, this sure would be a conversation piece in any freight train.
I took two pictures of it, but I just started a new roll of film so it will be awhile before I will know if they turned out.
Karl, as you know the only part of the transit system that hauled boxcars was the South Brooklyn Railway. But even they used 'hand-me-down' equipment from the mainlines. I don't recall them having boxcars with their (or their parent company's) livery.
What you saw was someone's custom-paint job of wishful thinking.
BTW, I got a nice run down the line with 1227 on Saturday. And I did take her through the curve at a nice clip (also I nearly got injured on her later in the day...more details on that some other time).
BMTman
Looking at classic Toy Trains mag. there are quite a few special issue cars that never existed in real life. Guess that's a tiny piece of the fun of being a model rail.
I took a battered Flyer hopper and made it a NYC Transit System hopper, they do exist but not with the lettering job I did; or at least they did exist, saw them in 36 st yard.[years ago] Just the fun of having it. Wonder if having NYC Transit system on the same car as BMT reporting marks was ever a fact? Well, somebody liked it.
Sorry you had a boo-bo on 1227!
Karl, you didn't tell me about that one. Was it for sale or was it just on display? I'd be happy to make an excuses for a piece like that on my layout.
The most recent Hagstrom and previous maps show a connection allowing trains going westbound on the lower Montauk line to go and connect to the eastbound mainline at Sunnyside yard east of 49th Av (it's only called HP east of the Dutch Kills!) and the Penn portals. Reverse the direction of the connection to the mainline, and one has a new line to Penn Station (with third rail installed of course).
Does this connection really exist?
And was 39th Street once called Harold Avenue?
Yes, you can see that connection coming down onto the mainline on two large ramps as you approach the Penn Tunnels.
Perhaps when East Side Access moves further along this could be useful (to get trains to Penn or to GCT).
Who can say SubTalk isn't timely?
Less than 2 hours ago I looked out the window of my morning train and noticed those ramps for the first time -- actually, I've probably seen them a thousand times, but never thought about what they connected to until this morning.
Log on to SubTalk -- question answered.
Thanks,
CG
That connection is a freight line LIRR North Yard at Sunnyside. It wouldn't be good for a tunnel connection because it is elevated (due to a draw bridge) at the point where it needs to be going under ground. In my F interlocking diagram one can see that there are two parts to his connection. The main 2-track freight line flys over the whole of F interlocking and down into North Yard. There is a single track ramp that descends eastbound into F interlocking. The ramp passes directly over the E/B portals. The line is labeled as LIAR Montauk Branch.
I think they should use it to start up some sort of Loop Service as NYC seems to have a definite lack of loops these days.
I have a pic of the ramp right here:
http://129.133.1.64/~mbrotzman/LIAR_9789.jpg
BTW according to my PRR Interlocking Diagram it is still called Harold Ave. and I think the PRR knows better than some city streets department.
Please refer to the Boeing press release below:
http://www.boeing.com/news/releases/2001/q2/news_release_010501a.html
"Stage II" jets (727's, older DC-9's and others with low-bypass turbofans or annular turbojet engines) are being replaced at LaGuardia with high-bypass engine's jets, some of which already exceed Stage III noise standards and meet proposed Stage IV.
This does nothing for congestion, but it will reduce fuel consumption per passenger and reduce noise levels dramatically. I've been right under the runway pattern at an airport and had a 727 and a 767 take off overhead - I could have a normal conversation with someone in the secnd case. Given a little offset and distance, the impact is even less. This is good news.
"high-bypass engine's jets,"
make that "high-bypass engined jets."
Remember I posted about what streets the subway lines run under. I have a correction:
What I said:
The B/D lines run from St. Nicholas Avenue, cut under street, end up under Douglass Blvd for the station, then turn away to the Bronx.
What is true:
The B/D lines turn onto St. Nicholas Place, then make a diagonal under the Polo grounds towers so that the north end of the station has an exit to Douglass Blvd north of 155th (about where 157 or so would be). The line then curves to end up under 161st in the Bronx.
BTW, if anybody knows. Which is the original Harlem Lane, Convent Avenue or St. Nicholas?
I realize that my original subject could have been misconstrued to mean that subway trains are running in the street like trolleys.
Monday afternoon in Secaucus a 91 year old man drove through crossing gates.
Tuesday Jersey Journal story
What, it's been almost an hour and nobody's showed up yet to bash on the victim? I'm impressed! I'd have thought that by now someone would have trotted out the old standbys like "mandatory testing every 6 months for anyone over 50", "he deserved what he got for being so stupid", and so forth.
I saw the helicopter camera view of the incident last night. The train was already gone and the car was sitting on the tracks. It would have been more than a miracle had he survived.
A Conrail Shared Assets freight train did NOT set a dozen brush fires along 2 miles of track on the Bordentown-Hamilton ROW, according to a Conrail spokesman. One of the fires was under the train.
Trenton Times story
Just testing...
Just so you know what's going on.
I configured the database for the *Talks to be separate from that from the rest of the site so that the load on *Talk doesn't impact retrieval of captions and other info stored in the database. But in order to do this I had to convert the password processing script to use DBI instead of the old Msql.pm perl module. So that's what was going on. Essentially now there are two database engines serving the site instead of just one.
Thanks for the info, as well as your continuing work on the site. I've already noticed a huge improvement in the performance of the SubTalk script.
-- David
Chicago, IL
At Nostrand Ave. on the Fulton St IND line the express tracks are on the upper level and the locals on the lower.WHY IS THAT?????????
Because the express' exuberance and longing for sunshine eventually led it to burrow toward the surface, away from its brother the local?
:0)
LOL!!!! I needed the laugh! You have some imagination. Wonder how the local feels since it doesn't get any sunshine at all.
I'm going to guess that it was was a provision for the IND Second System. In general, whenever IND lines do weird things like that, Second System provision is a good bet.
:-) Andrew
I posted an answer earlier but will do so again. The second level, according to Joe Cunningham, was built as a provision for a future extension. Our information on the site and elsewhere agrees with Joe, however- all the info we have on IND Second System does not show a line at this station other than the current line.
A poster asked about the Utica Line-- this was is the plans for IND II. The IND is full of bellmouths and "interesting" features which were for future projects (some of which were not even on the drawing board.)
Check out E-Bay item #1140470269. This has got to be of the poorest taste since they listed Elian Gonzalez's life boat.
Check out E-Bay item #1140470269. This has got to be of the poorest taste since they listed Elian Gonzalez's life boat.
EBay says that that the item was deleted but doesn't say what it was. So, to satisfy my curiosity ...
It was a piece if Amadu Diallo's door in the vestibule, where he was shot by Bronx TRACON
The asking price was $41,000 dollars.
In the 1990s, the R40M,R42,R44 & R46 went through an overhaul.The R40M and the R42s recieved doors with higher windows instead of the deeper windows they originally had.The R44 and R46 recieved computerized Luminator destination signs.The only thing that's missing is the dark blue band that went around the cars below the windows.Why didn't the MTA keep these bands on these cars??? The Metro-North and LIRR still have theirs.
Only a minority of LIRR M1s and M3s have the blue stripe, unfortunately. All Metro-North trains do. I think that they look a hell of a lot better with the stripe. That goes for the R44s and R46s too. The loss of the stripe was bad enough. The loss of the rollsigns was worse! Yech! Those awful LCD's!
It's not as bad, stylistically, on the R40 and R42 without thew stripe. At least they have the corrugations to break it up, and they're not as huge and faceless as the post-GOH R44 or R46.
(Just ranting here. I trust that all of these trains were mechanically improved by the GOH.)
:-) Andrew
Looking at the end of the LIRR MUs, you would expect to see a yellow stripe on the side. It also doesn't make much sense that the NH MNRR cars have a red stipe, but both the Harlem and Hudson lines share a blue stripe. One of these should be green.
The red stripe on the New Haven cars was a carry over from the old color scheme of the New York, New Haven, and Hartford. The cars had red on the sides; after 1954 the locomotives had orange, white, and black. (Metro North used to have an FL-9 painted in true New Haven colors, but I think it has been scrapped.)
Because the New Haven cars have pantographs, they are basically for use only on that line. Hudson and Harlem cars are interchangeable. And, the green for the Hudson line came well after the cars with the blue stripes were purchased.
I used to see that FL-9 on the Waterbury trains while waiting for my GCT-bound MU at Bridgeport. It would stop, and I would stare into the giant loco's innards, which were well-lit. I remember it was a rather noisy machine. Sorry to hear it's not in use anymore. Know what they're using now? I guess they still have the (comet?) coaches, each with its individual name on the side...
I feel that the R40M-R42 were raped. The large door windows, both on the side and storm doors, gave them a nice, sleek look. The huge full-glass route sign in the front was also pretty cool, and the blue stripe just accented the overall appearance. Interior shades of light blue were also quite cheerful. Unfortunately, none of this is from first-hand memory; I am relying on photos of these cars in their former glory.
Also I always wondered - did the R40M-R42 have "blinking" lights when crossing 3rd rail gaps before GOH?
The R-40M did, the R-42 didn't. I agree with you, these cars looked much better in the original scheme.
The graffiti scourge of the 1970s and early 1980s is probably why the MTA opted not to keep the blue paint, the same way they ditched the blue doors on the R-32s -- why paint something that doesn't need painting, if it's going to fade and/or wash off in the car cleaner?
The silver paint was likely chosen for the non-stainless steel band on the R-44s so they would look more like their R-46 and R-68 cousins.
Since the graffiti problem never got as out of control on the LIRR as it did on the subway, those in charge over there apparently decided it was OK to keep the original color scheme.
We all know that service on the CTA really stinks sometimes, but this time it literally stinks.
Article in today's Sun-Times
But it probably doesn't stink nearly as much as the dog that was fried on the third rail last month on the Orange Line. And that was even before a T/O was ordered to drive over the unfortunate dog by a supervisor.
"L" train ordered to drive over dog by supervisor on www.Chicago-L.org
Have a nice day!
-- David
Chicago, IL
The cards according to the article must have smelled like a restroom after it has been cleaned with a too strong mixture of hot water and ammonia.
The dog incident sounds like it was rather cruel. They could have at least picked up the dog from the tracks rather than running over it. If it had died on the way to the next station or on the way to the animal hospital at least it wouldn't have had an inhumane demise.
BMTJeff
(Thanks to revised zoning rules advanced Tuesday by a City Council committee, developers who adopt landmark buildings or underwrite improvements to nearby transit stations or the city's underground pedway would also earn so-called "density" bonuses that give them the right to build bigger and taller buildings.)
Chicago's got an underground pedway too? Geez, the Windy City is building stuff we just talk about.
Yes, there is actually a fairly extensive Pedway system below the streets of downtown Chicago. The casual visitor to Chicago would hardly know it's down there because, well, it's underground. There are a few signs here and there, but overall it's not very well marked. The Pedway is most useful for savvy commuters and downtown workers who have taken the time to explore it. Some parts of it are rather dirty and tend to attract skells and panhandlers, but overall it's relatively clean and safe.
The Pedway connects major downtown landmarks such as City Hall, Randolph Street Station (Metra, South Shore), Marshall Field's, Carson Pirie Scott, the Daley Center, First National Plaza, the State of Illinois Center, Grant Park, the Red and Blue Line subways, and several hotels and office buildings. The Pedway system comes in especially handy on days with crappy weather; it's possible to walk from Randolph Street Station all the way over to City Hall without going outside or waiting for a crosswalk signal.
-- David
Chicago, IL
I'm not surprised that Chicago has a pedway system. It managed to build a mini-RR under every street.
When was this pedway built?
I'm not very familiar with the history of the Pedway, but it seems to have buit piecemeal over a number of years. The section that goes through the Daley Center basement dates back to the late 1960's, which was when the Daley Center was built, and the connection to Randolph Street Station seems to have been around for quite some time as well. Some parts are much newer, and in other parts, it's hard to tell if a section is actually brand-new or whether it's an older section that had recently been renovated.
Maybe some of the other Chicago history buffs could fill in some more information.
-- David
Chicago, IL
I thought it was nothing more than access to underground parking. I have enought trouble remembering how to find Randolph Street stion he once a year I go there, especially on a weekend.
BTW, does the South Shore honor the $5 weekend pass, or only to Hegewisch ?
BTW, does the South Shore honor the $5 weekend pass, or only to Hegewisch?
No, the weekend pass is valid on all Metra trains except the South Shore (which technically isn't even part of Metra, although Metra provides some funding for the line).
-- David
Chicago, IL
It's kinda like the system of tunnels under Rockefeller Center. I could walk from 6th Avenue & 47th Street to 53rd Street or 5th Avenue without having to wait for a traffic light or battling other cars.
But the Rockefeller Center system is obviously much smaller. And it only runs under 6th Avenue above the subway or under the center on either side of the rink to 5th Avenue.
If someone lives in Crystal City (in one of the buildings that connects to one of the tunnels there) and works in Union Station, he could virtually leave home without needing to take an umbrella.
I don't think Carsons actually has an entrance to the Pedway. Also, some portions of the system are actually above ground, like the walkways through the Illinois Center (northward and eastward of the Randolph Street Station.)
I don't think Carsons actually has an entrance to the Pedway.
It does, but the entrance is not in use. The doors are locked and the windows covered up, but the entrance is still there. IIRC, it's at the south mezzanine of the Washington stop.
Also, some portions of the system are actually above ground, like the walkways through the Illinois Center (northward and eastward of the Randolph Street Station.)
True, although "above ground" is a confusing concept in the Illinois Center. All the streets in that area are double-deck (and sometimes even triple-deck!), with the upper street level, and hence, the apparent ground level, a couple dozen feet above the true ground level. Since there are rarely any windows in the Pedway, it still has very much of an underground feel to it even though you're actually 3-4 floors above ground.
Other areas of the Pedway that are truly above ground involve a few skywalk connections, particularly in the North Loop area adjacent to the Leo Burnett building, and the skywalk connecting the First National Bank building with an annex across Madison Street.
-- David
Chicago, IL
Did the supervisor get fired for issuing that order? And BTW, that would be one order I would gladly DISOBEY, even if I got fired, not only I would sue, but I would get the entire press in the courtroom and mention the supervisor's name.
They reported no service between Lindenwold & "Hadden Township"-maybe they meant "Haddonfield" , due to small brush fires near the tracks.
This was reported around 5 PM.
Chuck Greene
No, Westmont = Haddon Twp.
I wonder where the fires were exactly and what caused them? Probably kids being let out of school.
Thanks, Mike. I had that all wrong.
Chuck Greene
The poll closes Thursday nite at 9 PM. Take the SubTalk Live Survey!
Thanks for the responses re my first-ever post on SubTalk. I have also wondered if alternative access to the system exists other than the conventional means--stations, portals, emergency entrances from the street. For example, does access exist from adjacent basements/sublevels of buildings? Please post answers here at SubTalk or e-mail me.
I don't know why I am fascinated with such esoterica in an already esoteric hobby/passtime. All I know is that I am and so are others like yourselves. The more esoteric, the more interesting is the subject. SubFan Nerds of the world UNITE!
Oops,sorry.
Appropriately humble,
Tunnel Rat
There are at least a couple of entrances into the system that don't fit the usual mold. Perhaps the most notable of these is the entrance, long closed, from the Belmont Hotel into the Times Square station on the IRT. The other one I've heard about is from the basement of 370 Jay Street in Brooklyn used by the money train. I've heard rumors of an entrance or two into the tunnels from basements directly adjacent to the IND but I've never seen them so I cannot confirm their existence.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Grand Central has a few nonconventional entrances through buildings that aren't marked as such. A few buildings in the financial district do have entrances to the 4-5 and J-M-Z in their basements. B-D-F-Q has some in midtown that are in basements.
IIRC, you can get into the downtown Astor Place station from the K-Mart store.
That is correct. The store site used to be a Wanamaker's Department Store.
Ah, the site of the famous Wanamaker Washout of 1956.
And you can get into Penn Station from the Midtown K-Mart in 1 Penn Plaza. And from the rest of One Penn Plaza.
Yes, and at one time, the same station was accessible from Clinton Hall (more recently Alexander Hamilton Hall, and I don't know what it's name is now), the building across 8 St from K-mart. See the article on the bricked-over door at Forgetten-NY.
Somebody record several Acela Express movies and put them on this site. You can go there and enjoy!
Chaohwa
Hey that's cool!
Makes me remember a question I've been meaning to ask if/when I ever signed on here. Are there any videotapes of NY (or other) train footage?
Lots. They're listed elsewhere on this site; current footage from Mark Feinman and Salaamallah is available, as well as historical footage from several commercial producers.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
From Trains Magazine online:
"Seven cars of the Ringling Bros. Barnum & Bailey Circus train derailed at slow speed in Worcester, Mass., on Tuesday. The train, bound for Providence, R.I., had just been interchanged from CSX to regional Providence & Worcester when the derailment occurred around 4 a.m. None of the 230 passengers and 40 animals was injured, the Associated Press reported."
This week's Westchester Weekly paper has an article that talks about the Yonkers Kawasaki plant and its record of worker abuse.
The story can be found at the following url:
http://www.westchesterweekly.com/articles/kawasaki.html
Kawasaki, like every other major company doing business in the USA, is subject to the provisions of Title VII of the 1964 Civil Rights Act. If there were a pattern of racial bigotry by the management there, I'm quite sure that there would have been numerous Civil Rights cases there. Hence, the MTA would likely not have done business with Kawasaki.
I've worked for Nihonjin companies - Matsushita, SONY, JVC America and others - and the descriptions at Kawasaki are very much in keeping with how it was at the others. Bear in mind that Japanese culture is VERY different from ours and that Americans are considered the LAZIEST gaigin on the face of the earth (gaigin = "foreign devils") ... Japan's culture is EXTREMELY racist towards outsiders and Nissei who have left the home islands are forever tainted by exposure to gaigin.
Women are considered property and I could go on and on and on. I would tend to believe the complaints, it's quite normal behavior inside a lot of companies that I've worked for as well. ESPECIALLY the union thing ... if unions have tried to organize the floor, then you can color Kawasaki *gone* ... only thing worse than American minority group members in the eyes of the Nihonjin are UNION American minority group members ... do understand that you and I are members of an extremely inferior race as far as the Japanese go ... way low on the food chain in their eyes. Insects are more revered.
That's kind of racist?
Can't recall that from my experience, but of course factories are foreign to me.
Sorry it sounds that way ... having spent most of my life in electronics, I've worked for a lot of Japanese companies and that IS the corporate culture. I've also got many friends, mostly kids of "salarymen" who came over here to get AWAY from the mentality. But I'm not at all surprised by the tales out of Yonkers - seen it and been in the middle of it myself. This is also the reason for my own personal revulsion for "TQM" ... saw it on the factory floors in Long Island City and the state too.
But the Japanese have a very low opinion of Americans ... I'm sure others here will chide in as well. But sorry it comes off that way.
Well, in this day and age if you not part of the group you critisize, you can't do that :-)
I did read the thread about TQM.Can't comment as I've never even worked for a company with more than 10 employees (my current consulting business aside.)
I just have a different experience re: Japaniese, and I don't see what you see, but again I've never had a business relationship with them.
Arti
I guess it's a bit different for me, I've spent time on the Akihabara, Yokohama, Hiroshima and Kobe. The folks out in the countryside are much like us. However, "salaryman" is a completely different animal and culturally the Japanese are still a very closed society. Compare that with the Koreans who, like us, know when something is "good enough." Sorry, I could never get into that wearing of shame ribbons and so forth. ("I have shamed the company!") But I understand how my words could be taken as bordering on racism and that's not my intent. I've been heavily exposed to the culture and lived within it during my worklife. It's amazingly similar in each company I've worked for and to the American sensibilities of what a jobsite should be like, Kawasaki is stunningly *normal* for the complaints raised. I've seen it routinely, with not one exception, over there and over here.
Many of the Japanese folks I know that live here (and have no intention of returning to the homeland) have pretty much agreed with me about the "anthill" mentality there and live here because of it. But to the Japanese, business *is* war and no prisoners will be taken. I've also done the retreat to Mount Fujiyama where the koretsu divvy up their market for the coming year. "Competition" is an amusing little reality during retreat. It wouldn't pass antitrust muster here at all.
Getting back to Kawasaki though, I'm sure that the problems their cars have been having reflect an unhappy work force with less than a "commitment to excellence". (gack! phrases come easy, folks who like their job actually produce quality) That they're hiring QA people now seems to bear that out. I remember asking back in 1968 one of the suits up in the control room why there were television cameras in the urinals ... the answer, "You Americans steal. We want to make sure you're not taking the toilet paper home." Found microphones in our workbenches too. "You Americans like your big unions - we hear you talking about unsatisfactory working conditions." So yeah, I've seen places that are similar to what the Kawasaki folks are complaining about and the corporate attitude that comes with it.
My one favorite all time line though came at JVC America, "Schematic? You want to see schematic? NOBODY see schematic. You Americans steal our designs. No schematic." Now try fixing a stereo when you can't identify which parts need changing. :)
I've never dealt with the Japanese on a professional level, but have you EVER tried to get information on the electronic components in your stereo? For that matter, have you ever tried to BUY one of those chips?
I had a Sony clock radio that I wanted to look up the internals on. Low and behold, according to Sony's web page, the chip in there that said "Sony" on it....didn't exist.
The other thing I can never get over is how all Japanese motorcycles look alike. If you pained all the GSX-Rs, Ninjas, etc black, with no labeling on them, you'd never be able to tell the difference between them.
I've always had mixed feelings about them. But then, I'd imagine they have mixed feelings about US too.
Well, this certainly isn't where I wanted to go with this ... lemme rephrase it this way - NYS already has a Labor Department, reality says Kawasaki's going to do another GE here and split, might as well investigate the complaints and see what we've got here. My intention in what I posted is that I've seen similar circumstances with other Japanese companies and therefore the accusations should not be dismissed out of hand. It certainly can be looked at within the confines of "business as usual" and that's all I ever intended by my own comments.
That said, yes, I've seen THAT behavior too.
Your observation about the "look-alike" motorcycles is not coincidence, but rather the result of "niban te shoho" "second-hand business". Almost every successful product in Japan is quickly imitated. The concept of intellectual property rights (within Japan) does not exist. Copying is a way of doing business there. Everyone expects it. OUTSIDE Japan however, it is a very different story. Japan businesses protect their intellectual property with a determined vengeance. Your experience with SONY is typical.
I'm curious as to why anyone would want to copy a Japanese cruiser :)
Their sportbikes are fun until the motor lunches, however I've heard the frames on them suck.
But, I for the most part hate boring lookalike stuff. I'd much rather a Harley, Ducatti, or SOMETHING else that has a SOUL, as opposed to Brand J stuff. Oh yeah, and the parts availability is lousy too.
If you want a real laugh, pop the lid off any Japanese electronics some day. my Sony discman has Panasonic, Mitsubishi, Toshiba, Sony, and NEC guts in it. Probbably some Hitachi too.
Same thing for Ford or any car company. There are parts from all over the world in there. If you want to have some fun pop open a ordinary PC and look inside. Part from countries you never knew exsisted.
cause its cheaper to make them in other countries. in first world countries, realty, laws, workers make it hard and expensive to manufacture things. and to save money some companies do go to others to make things for them.
Yeah, just look at the moneyed "takenoko" (young urban "punks") in Shibuya. They're all riding Harleys! There are at least 5 different Harley-Davidson outlets in the Tokyo metropolitan area, and despite the astronomic prices, they can't sell them fast enough! I suppose that we "amerikajin" are "taimanagaijin" (lazy foreigners), but we know how to make a bike with "soul"!
If you want a real laugh, pop the lid off any Japanese electronics some day. my Sony discman has Panasonic, Mitsubishi,
Toshiba, Sony, and NEC guts in it. Probbably some Hitachi too.
That's what I meant with my comment about the annual retreat to Mount Fujiyama where the koretsu divvies up the market among themselves so that the entire "industry" doesn't end up competing in any way. All companies gather together and collude to fix prices and determine which company sells what. After all, in Japan, you don't compete with your brethren, the game is to win against the outsiders. Much like our own American oil companies, collusion, price fixing and anticompetitive behavior is GOOD. :)
Similar to the concord and "Concordski".
Concordski was a immation concord made by Russia. Also known as the Tupulov 144.
It wasn't really an imitation (it was different in a number of ways), and I was under the impression that it beat the concorde at least to test flight. SSTs are kinda like nukes, everyone eventually reaches more or less the same design. Ever notice how comercial aircraft all mlook the same today?
You are correct.
The TU-144's first flight was in the winter of 1968, two months ahead of Concorde. While the Russians were interested in Concorde's design and made an effort to do intelligence-gathering, the truth is that the delta design was acknowledged to be the most efficient and, if anything, Tupolev (and "Tsagi," the Central Institute of Aerodynamics and Hydrodynamics, founded by a genius engineer named Zhukovsky) came up with a aircraft that had some superior features (like the forward canard). Unfortunately, Russian engines were not quite up to the task (a problem which occurred again when the IL-86 wide-body jetliner started testing years later); the Concorde can "supercruise" at altitude,using afterburner for takeoff and acceleration, while the -144 could sustain Mach 2 only on afterburner. The -144's range was severely reduced by this, making the aircraft worthless for international routes.
I would agree with you that Japanese culture, business or otherwise, is very different from ours. As for the rest, it smacks ufortunately, of gross stereotyping. Certainly, there exists racism within the Japanese culture, just as there is racism within our own.
But, you must put that racism within the context of Japan's long history of isolationism to understand where they are "coming from".
Also, you really can't generalize. I have worked with several large Japanese concerns over the years including IHI (Ishikawajima Heavy Industries) and Kawasaki. I have not experienced the overt racism toward gaijin (which is a colloquial shortening of gaikokujin - it simply means "outside country person" - and is not derogatory in itself, although it may in certain circumstances be used that way) that you have. I have made many friends within the Japanese business world, at all levels, from the factory worker to the plant manager. As a whole, I believe the Japanese to be a sincere, hard working people with a strong sense of culture and tradition. My experience is this...if you take the time to understand their way of life and language, then you will gain a small insight into what this very different culture has to offer, and you will understand that dispite these vast differences, deep down, we are more alike than you think.
Also, many things are changing in Japanese culture today. Attitudes toward woman are changing, albeit much slower than within our society. But, still, among the younger Japanese men that I have come to know (under 40 years) I know of no one who considers a woman, be it a coworker or wife, to be property. In fact, that demure retiring appearance many Japanese wives give is just their "tatemae", or "public face". At home, where their "honne" or true self, kicks in, most are the true heads of their households and they let their "saririman" husbands know it!
OK ... I have to admit to an "ad hominim" here ... my experience with working for the karetsu was back in the 1970's and believe me, at that time, the culturals were MOST "unenlightened" ... but like I said, modern Japanese that I have met want nothing to do with that which I faced working with and living over there at the time. I'm glad to see that the "salaryman" mentality is shifting. It was long overdue.
But again, looking at the specifics of the complaints about Kawasaki Yonkers, that's PRECISELY the kind of behavior I had become used to in the workplace and saw every day. Granted, I've been out of consumer electronics for 20 years now, perhaps a few "salarymen" need to be called back home for "regrooving" ... but I also know about the Japanese honor and diligence to the task, and clearly with the described problems with the Kawasaki subway cars, something is very very wrong in Yonkers. That was my whole point and I apologize for all like coming off like some hick from upstate here ... but I've SEEN the conduct described in that story first hand ... my apologies once again if my 20 years ago rememberances are obsolete. But every bit as much as Jim Crow laws, it was real at the time.
If the japanese are doing the racism up there and the mispracticed labor, its their way at getting back at us for blowing them to smitherenes 56 years ago. THEY NEED TO GO!
How about the interment camps? did you forget about that?
dont even think of going in that direction! understand?
yeah, they did it to us and kill some americans at it. why should we feel bad. they did it first atleast when we had concentration camps for them we didn't kill em off. (i don't have anything against japanese in general, just the ones from the previous generations that are right now in power that have such repugnant thinking. THEY NEED TO GO )
yep, old people need to go. Replace them with a 22-35 year olds.
yes cause the old people are the ones who is causing bad relations with other creeds.
Interesting life lesson / Rule of the Universe:
No Married Man is King of his own house.
Anybody wanna disagree?
Not I...
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
it is a fact that the japanese do think lowly of everyone else. they are ethnocentric people because of their history with americans, and around the world, they are one of the most hated countries in the world. this is why their economy sucks because nobody likes to do business with them and if they do business worldwide, civilians in those countries will meagerly buy or never buy their products because of their attitude towards the rest of the world. you think they do good business in the U.S.? think again. they get things done through american countries, but their products don't sell well except for their cars and videogames. thats the other reason why most rapid transit organizations around the world will not turn to them for manufacturing. other companies such as Bombardier and Siemens (i wish they went to siemens instead of Kawasaki, they build better rail cars)get contracts for railcars. i wish the MTA never did business with them, but because they are the lowest bidder and the closest is the reason they got the contract.
Kawasaki, like every other major company doing business in the USA, is subject to the provisions of Title VII of the 1964 Civil Rights Act. If there were a pattern of racial bigotry by the management there, I'm quite sure that there would have been numerous Civil Rights cases there. Hence, the MTA would likely not have done business with Kawasaki.
I just read the article about Kawasaki railcar. They have not been very good to its workers and not good for New York. They should invite Otis evevator back to their old Yonkers plant, build a test elevator shaft and shove some of bosses from Kawasaki railcar down the evevator shaft that they build.
As for the problems with the R-142 subway cars. After reading that the workmanship was often shoddy I'm not surprised that there are problems with them. I wonder if Bombardier treat their employees better?
BMTJeff
Bombardier treats their workers way better. all workers are unionized and worker conditions are state of the art. Bombardier knows better not to screw the people for they are a French-Canadian company. French Canadians don't no BS.
Maybe Bombardier should move into the Yonkers plant when Kawasaki leaves since they treat their employees better than Kawasaki does. Maybe if the city is smart they won't buy any more subway cars from Kawasaki once they leave New York. Kawasaki doesn't derserve their business if they treat their employees so badly.
BMTJeff
I know how New York loves to shake down every vendor that comes to town (and then wonders why they go four paws to the moon in short order) but the Bombardier plant up in Plattsburgh has had more than enough troubles it would seem making its 142's work to the specs. In all sincerity, I think the city and the taxpayers would have been better off had the cars been made in Quebec in the same plant where they make all the other railcars rather than forcing them to come and hire people who don't have the experience in order to "hire local" for the benefit of job stats for politicians.
Reason I say this is Bombardier does an excellent job generally and the problems that have cropped up are more than likely due to the requirement that the cars be built in New York. Look at StupidSteel's crappy work up in Schenectady for the LIRR ...
Which of the facilities in Quebec are you talking about? What used to be the MLW works (now Bombardier), or what used to be CC&F's works (now Bombardier), or others that I'm not aware of?
It's the Thunder Bay plant in northern Ontario that has seen the most subway car building, not CC&F who I don't believe ever made any subway cars or MLW, who built one batch of 36 in the early 1960s, who are located in Quebec and now part of Bombardier as well. I'd recommend Thunder Bay over any of the alternatives in Quebec on that basis, although to MLW's credit their subway cars were excellent vehicles, but that was nearly 40 years ago.
-Robert King
Apologies there - I *was* thinking of Thunder Bay which I misplaced in the land of le Quebecois ... Bombardier does have a hell of a good reputation ... chalk it up to brain damage. :)
Ok, I was just wondering about that. The Montreal Locomotive Works plant now owned by Bombardier probably could produce good quality subway cars now, even if the only subway cars they produced were built over 1962-1963.
Those MLW subway cars were very well made and had an excellent reliability record too, despite the fact that they were quite revolutionary at the time being the first Canadian built subway cars, the first 75 foot long subway cars made in the world, and one of the lightest types of subway cars built in the world despite their length, incorporating an unprecedented amount of lightweight aluminum construction into the body. In fact, their design worked out so well that the basic design is still used as the standard starting point from which all of the TTC's subsequent subway cars have been designed from. So good subway cars could probably be produced in Quebec too...
-Robert King
Agreed ... I live in upstate New York, halfway between Schenectady (where StupidSteel is) and Albany so obviously I'm happy to see my homies gainfully employed and all in Plattsburgh to the north of here and in Yonkers, way to the south of here. Alas, all of these areas haven't had a whole lot of experience with railcars in better than 50 years and as much as I'm glad to see the jobs and all, building railcars does require a long amount of experience at doing so that would appear to be lacking in the outcome of the finished products.
Sometimes it's best to just let those who build them all the time do it rather than forcing companies to hire "in state" just to get the contract. I'm sure one of our beancounters here would welcome the opportunity to factor up the cost overruns caused by "made in New York" as opposed to having let them be built at the "real" factories.
i agree with that. however the reason that the experienced (the Canadians) can't come down to Plattsburgh is because of politics, which y'all know already. the built the factory to make transport easier and closer to ny transit systems. the canadians couldn't come over to work because they aren't us citizens. and they wouldn't be allowed because the canadians wouldn't let outsiders into their territory.
What gets me is we have this "NAFTA" treaty which says no matter where it's made, it's "domestic." It does make me wonder how much we're paying for the cars since factories had to be built and once the delivery is done, what do we think is going to happen to those employees? Once the fleet's been reupped, any company DUMB enough to bid and build is going to end up like Budd ... again, not that I mind folks having jobs as a part of this contract but it sure doesn't reflect any real long-term thinking ... whoop ... silly me - financial analysts don't look past the next fiscal quarter, politicos don't look past the next election ... nevermind. :)
Given the exchange rate between the Canadian and American currencies, it is obviously less expensive to have something like that built in Canada - especially since the factories already exist and are actually good at what they do. As for ending up like Budd, Bombardier is large enough and diverse enough and does enough international business, I don't think they need to worry as much as Budd.
Who devised the requirement demanding that all the new subway cars for NYC must be built in New York state (I'm guessing that it would originate with a politician in the state government, but I honestly don't know)? A cost-benefit study is definately in order, and could probably be buried easily enough if the findings aren't what they want to read.
-Robert King
Howdy again ... wasn't suggesting Bombardier would "go under" after the cars are built - what I meant was the factory that was tossed together in Plattsburgh likely would ... that's what makes it all so nonsensical in my own mind, even ignoring the exchange rates and other logic you tossed into the mix. I'll bet our politicos actually expect the Kawasaki plant in Yonkers to remain open for decades between future car orders as well. I'm sure you guys on the other side of the border have already seen the mental capacity of some of our own politicos, which clearly put your 301 MP's to shame. :)
And yes, our sausage crafters came up with the brilliant idea of providing bidding incentives to go knock down some trees and open up a car shop in the woods in order to have the coveted "Made in NY" label on the builder plates ... but it allows them to say they created jobs. Even if they go away once the cars are delivered.
I suppose the current governor, and possibly evne the next one after him, can keep the New York plants going for the rest of the decade, due to the upcoming replacements of the R-38/40/42 cars. That would prevent the votes -- err, I mean jobs -- from disappearing any time soon, but it would also lock in the MTA's car orders to Bombardier and Kawasaki because of the employment threat that would arise from not giving them the R-160 order (or whatever the contract number turns out to be).
Should be amusing, since KHI has the 143 order and is already making rumblings that they're going to quit Yonkers and head to the midwest, wonder how that's going to pan out if they do. There's a qualifier under NYS competitive bidding law that allows a "low bidder" to be (I think it's still) 3% higher than the "low bidder" if they're a New York company ... I'm all for "spend at home" of course, but such contrivances probably have ramped costs up beyond that 3% sweetness and in the end, if the quality of work out of a "propped-up" local plant doesn't measure up to the manufacturer's "real" plant, I don't see what the real benefits are here.
Then again, I'm a professional skeptic, kids please don't try this at home. :)
I agree with your sentiment. I think creating high-paying jobs and redeveloping local areas here are important, but local plants (workers, managers, everybody) still have responsibility for putting out a quality product - whatever that product might be. It's a two-way street.
Hopefully at the same time the Governor and the Mayor of New York City willrealize that there are problems at the Kawasaki plant in Yonkers and try to straighten them out. BTW aren't the Adtranz cars built in Elmira?
BMTJeff
It isn't exactly practical for the 'experienced Canadians' to be working at an industrial plant far away from where they live (Thunder Bay or pick a plant in Quebec). There's no good reason to have the subway cars built in New York state either, when much better facilities exist elsewhere. Transporting subway cars from Thunder Bay, if they were to be built there, to New York city for example is much easier than bringing subway cars across the Atlantic Ocean from England to Toronto - and that was achieved before the St. Lawrence Seaway opened too.
-Robert King
>>> Alas, all of these areas haven't had a whole lot of experience with railcars in better than 50 years and as much as I'm glad to see the jobs and all, building railcars does require a long amount of experience at doing so that would appear to be lacking in the outcome of the finished products. <<<
What is unique to railcars that requires long experience to assemble? Isn't the whole idea of factory work from the time of Henry Ford to simplify the assembly so the workers do not need to be skilled? The Japanese have been quite successful at putting automobile assembly plants in places like Kentucky and other southern states without a great supply of automobile assembly workers.
Naturally the engineers need to be experienced, but there is nothing in U.S. immigration law that would prevent key personnel such as engineers and production managers from entering the country to work at the U.S. plants. It is too simple to blame the problems experienced with the output of the Kawasaki plant on inexperienced workers unless you are going to argue that New York people are below average in intelligence. The problems lie with management.
The decision to spend New York tax money in New York is also a rational one. Tax money that is spent on New York wages which then are spent on other goods in New York helps return some of that money to the state as taxes and reduces potential welfare expense.
Tom
Conceptually I would agree with you - it's just been my experience in manufacturing that you don't put your best and brightest and most skilled out into a "satellite office" other than to perhaps help bring the new operation up to speed prior to shipping.
And as to talent in NYS, let's look at the MTA's experience with Satellite operations brought into NYS in order to satisfy the "local content" clauses - Supersteel, part of GM/EMD (quite knowledgeable about locomotives and railcars) which located into Glenville, NY (Schenectady) - home to General Electric as well ... so how come the LIRR rebuilds, the Amtrak Turboliner rebuilds and the new cars for the LIRR have turned to absolute crap?
Bombardier is having some problems with the 142's, yet all the other railcars they build IN CANADA are extremely reliable. Kawasaki, in a satellite operation in Yonkers (another railcar builder with profound experience and an excellent "track record" in Japan and elsewhere) is having all sorts of problems cranking out pretty much a clone of what they build for JR (Japan Rail) ... all three have a common denominator of being built in a satellite plant in New York.
I haven't laid the blame for the specifics at the hands of the employees, management or a short talent pool here - but it is something noteworthy that all three carbuilding operations are producing flawed output for whatever the reason that would not have likely been the case if the equipment was being built in their own facilities with their own local talent.
While I'm sympathetic to the "spend local" cause, I wonder if it's working out financially ... that was pretty much what I was after ...
>>> I haven't laid the blame for the specifics at the hands of the employees, management or a short talent pool here - but it is something noteworthy that all three carbuilding operations are producing flawed output for whatever the reason that would not have likely been the case if the equipment was being built in their own facilities with their own local talent. <<<
Without building some of the same cars at the other plants it is impossible to say that they would not be flawed if they were built there. It is possible that problems are caused by relatively small design changes required by the end users. It is possible that the manufacturers are underbidding, by not taking into account all of the costs of starting a new manufacturing operation and training a workforce, and now are skimping on training and taking other shortcuts that are affecting the output. And there are other possibilities such as local graft and payoffs. Since it is not obvious why the NY plants are producing an inferior product, an investigation should be launched to discover the cause, rather than just saying assembling locally does not work.
Tom
Makes sense to me ... again, this is just a curiosity factor to me and there's all sorts of possibilities here. As far as the Kawasaki plant goes though, it sure does appear from the reports that started this thread that something is very much "not right" there ... then again, there have been problems for two other "transit vendors" as well and that's what piqued my own curiosity ...
Kawasaki also had some difficulties with the SEPTA light rail cars that were produced in 1981. The two prototypes (one for the interurban lines that run from Frankford Terminal and one for the streetcar service) ran extremely well, except for the American-made subassemblies. The production cars (final assembly at the Boeing-Vertol plant) had almost as many problems as the B-V cars for Boston and San Francisco, although the basic design was much better and therefore the problems were correctable.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
It is too simple to blame the problems experienced with the output of the Kawasaki plant on inexperienced workers unless you are going to argue that New York people are below average in intelligence.
Well, considering how New York students rank on nationwide standardized tests ...
I'm pretty sure this is it:
Traingirl
Whoa.
I remember hearing about this.
Does anyone remember the aftermath of this? Did the kid survive? What did the parent/whoever have to say for himself? Or was he able to win a jillion bucks in a lawsuit for train operator negligence?
Whoa.
I remember hearing about this.
Does anyone remember the aftermath of this? Did the kid survive? What did the parent/whoever have to say for himself? Or was he able to win a jillion bucks in a lawsuit for train operator negligence?
The only question to which I know the answer for sure is your second one, and the answer is definitely not.
By the way, the person involved was an adult woman, not a child; it's hard to tell for sure, but she seems to be carrying a briefcase of some sort.
Yep. She keeps going even though the horn is going, and the other people have stopped walking. The worst part of the whole thing is the body hits the photographer.
-Hank
Yep. She keeps going even though the horn is going, and the other people have stopped walking. The worst part of the whole thing is the body hits the photographer.
I've heard two theories as to why the woman kept going. She was in the process of getting divorced, and was heading to a hearing or legal proceeding with her lawyer (the man right behind her). It's possible that she was so preoccupied with the upcoming proceeding that she simply didn't pay enough attention to her surroundings. Another theory says that the woman was wearing high heels and was concentrating on her footing as she crossed the uneven surface. I find that a little doubtful, given how fast she was walking.
Guess one thing's certain - the lawyer didn't collect his fee!
Hey I think this is how operation lifesaver started.
Woah! She got BOUNCED!
I have seen parts of this tape on TV, but they always cut it short. Now I know why.
Quick physics review:
mv1 + mv2 = mv1' + mv2'
or
large # + 0 = slightly smaller # + very small # * proportionitly large #
At least she got hit by an old E unit. She might not have come so cleanly off one of the newer F40's.
THATS GOTTA HURT! Is That a real video? And is the girl real?
My goodness!! Just looking at that just reminds me of a Person getting hit by a LIRR Train.
When the brains were passed out, did that rocket scientist say "make mine scrambled"? You cannot believe the things people do out here, and sometimes I get to see them. Imagine trying to put someone who just got hit like that back together again. How we did not go extinct is a puzzlement, sometimes. The train always wins, folks. Believe it.
When the brains were passed out, did that rocket scientist say "make mine scrambled"? You cannot believe the things people do out here, and sometimes I get to see them. Imagine trying to put someone who just got hit like that back together again. How we did not go extinct is a puzzlement, sometimes. The train always wins, folks. Believe it.
I suspect there wasn't much point in putting anything back together in that particular case :0
As to the issue of why we haven't gone extinct, I suppose part of the answer is that there were fewer "opportunities" in past millenia for the sudden termination of one's existence. But maybe not. The (very) distant ancestors of Traingirl probably were the sort who didn't know enough to get out of the path of stampeding wooly mammoths.
And Traingirl is/was by no means the only moron when it comes to train safety.
OH! That ain't right.
I have seen things like that in the Emergency Department. Even worse are some things that folks do to themselves. Take this one. Once a budding Einstein tried to relieve his constipation by giving himself an enema with DRANO. Yes he did. He died after two weeks of agony in the hospital. There are some tings you just don't do. Sometimes friends who work for Emerency Medical Services tell me about some brainiac who went onto the subway tracks to find out what the live third rail felt like. You would think that after one does that, the others would wise up, but no.
At which Metra station did this happen? Why was someone filming it?
This really happened in the past?? It is just amazing that people are this stupid. I've grown up taking Metra downtown my whole life, I only have good memory of the new blue Metra engines. This had to happen in the 80's?? (I'm only 19).
BJ
At which Metra station did this happen? Why was someone filming it?
This really happened in the past?? It is just amazing that people are this stupid. I've grown up taking Metra downtown my whole life, I only have good memory of the new blue Metra engines. This had to happen in the 80's?? (I'm only 19).
According to what I've heard, the incident took place in the town of Downers Grove in the very early 1990's. I don't know if there is more than one station in the town. The photographer was trying to capture the final days of the to-be-retired locomotives.
That just goes to show you that evolution has a way of weeding out the stupid.
Maybe, but from what I have seen, they don't die, they multiply.
Wow, Downers Grove is the next town over from where I live in Westmont.
There are three stations in Downers Grove. Fairview Ave., Main St., and Belmont Rd.
Main Street is called Downers Grove Main St. Fairview and Belmont are close to the neighboring towns, so they just call them the street names.
It is hard to see in that video what anything even remotely looks like, but if I had to guess I would say Main St. Simply because it is the most heavily used D.G. station. I actually buy a ten ride ticket for Zone E, even though Westmont is in Zone D. I use Downers Grove Main St. Station the majority of the time because of the direct express service it has. Westmont only has a few peak rush hour express trains that aren't direct. Main Street has good express service weekdays outbound between roughly 2-7 p.m. There is also now an express train on saturday mornings inbound at 9:40 (too early!) and outbound around 5:30 p.m.(too early!)
Wow, Downers Grove is the next town over from where I live in Westmont.
There are three stations in Downers Grove. Fairview Ave., Main St., and Belmont Rd.
Main Street is called Downers Grove Main St. Fairview and Belmont are close to the neighboring towns, so they just call them the street names.
It is hard to see in that video what anything even remotely looks like, but if I had to guess I would say Main St. Simply because it is the most heavily used D.G. station.
Well, I have heard that Traingirl's follies took place in Downers Grove, but I can't swear to the accuracy of that. No doubt there's a lot of rumor and misinformation floating about. All that I know for sure is that it was a METRA train.
Is that woman still alive? Hopefully she figured out by now that the train always wins. I can think of a lot of people who need to see that video, and many of the children in school should see it as well.
Geez, this stuff had me shaking and it's not like I haven't been a transit manager for a while. I was in the cab when an engineer ran a big grouse over -- we didn't stop. It's kinda different when it's a person and not an animal.
Sorry if this sounds like nonsense, it's the first time I'd seen this video and I'm a little shocked. Don't know what to say -- are people stupid, are people careless, or is this just one of the things that happen? You know, like say if that was a big semitrailer I'd probably think nothing of it.
(WARNING: VERY LONG POST)
The original thread has branched so far and wide that I'm repeating the same points over and over again and I'm still being misunderstood.
I'll try again right here. If I fail to respond to one of your posts in the other thread, I probably address it here.
For starters, none of the AirTrain proponents need fear: for better or for worse, the AirTrain system is being built rapidly and will soon be open. My comments here have no practical import, at least for the present time; I should have spoken up a few years ago. Still, I think it's useful to evaluate the progress we've made so we can learn from our mistakes and maybe do things better next time.
As background for those just tuning in now, AirTrain, a project of the Port Authority, is a light rail line in three parts: a 1.8-mile JFK Airport terminal loop, a 3-mile branch to Jamaica (with passenger connections to LIRR and the E/J/Z subways), and a 3.3-mile branch to Howard Beach (with passenger connections to the A subway). According to reports I've seen here and/or on nyc.transit, cars will be the same dimensions as NYCT's 60-foot B Division subway cars, and the fare will be $5 to Jamaica and Howard Beach and free within the airport. There will be no track connections to the subway system.
I have put forth, in skeletal form, a somewhat different plan: Instead of a station with a passenger connection at Howard Beach, install a direct track connection to the northbound A tracks. The airport circulator and the rest of the Howard Beach branch would remain essentially the same; the Jamaica branch would be abandoned for the time being. Service from Howard Beach to (and through) the airport would be via a branch of the A train; there would, presumably, be additional trains circulating only within the airport. Intra-airport passengers would ride for free; otherwise, standard subway fare would apply (i.e., currently, $1.50 with applicable MetroCard-based discounts).
There are a few reasons integration makes sense:The subway system is the backbone of New York City. With a few exceptions, the subway carries New Yorkers and New York's visitors to all major points of gathering and many minor ones. JFK Airport is one of those exceptions (LaGuardia and the Javits Center are two others), perhaps the most glaring of them all.
The subway system is familiar to New Yorkers. New Yorkers ride the subway all the time. They understand its fare control system, they know how to transfer between lines, they know how to find the platform they need. Relatively speaking, few New Yorkers regularly ride the other rail systems in the area. I haven't taken a survey, but I suspect that if you asked 100 random New Yorkers on the street or in the subway what exactly is involved in riding, say, Metro-North or NJTransit (from finding the station to buying the ticket to finding the platform to boarding the train to riding), only a few would be familiar with the steps -- and the others, on the rare occasion they need to ride an unfamiliar system, are forced to grapple with the unfamiliarities. AirTrain and the oft-touted LIRR from Jamaica to Penn Station are unfamiliar systems to most New Yorkers, who will waste time and energy just trying to figure them out.
Decades ago it was decided that the subway system would have a flat fare, independent of distance traveled. More recently, the MetroCard system has broadened the flat fare to most of the city even outside the reach of the subway. To charge $5.00 for a basic ride from Howard Beach to JFK is ludicrous. Even if the subway were to shift to distance-based fares -- an issue best left to another thread -- charging $1.50 for a ride from Pelham Bay Park to Rockaway Park but $6.50 for a ride from East New York to JFK is just plain insulting.
The east ("south") end of the A line sees little use. Even with the substandard bus connection to JFK currently in place, most passengers on Rockaway-bound trains get off at Howard Beach. With improved connections, the number of JFK-bound subway riders will only increase. Why should a vast majority of passengers be required to get off one train, go upstairs, wait some more, and board a second train when a simple track connection would do away with the need to even stand up? Transferring is always a turnoff. Transferring to a different platform is a bigger turnoff. Transferring to a different platform with luggage is a major turnoff -- and it's simply unnecessary.
I'll leave off here with the manifesto and begin answering some of the questions I've been asked:Q: Wouldn't this cost a lot more than the AirTrain system? Track connections are expensive.
A: Not at all. For one thing, stations -- especially the gaudy ones the PA is building -- probably cost more than track connections. For another, I've eliminated the entire line to Jamaica.
Q:Wait! Without the line to Jamaica, I can't get home.
A: Well, you still can get home, although you may have to go out of your way. If Jamaica, specifically, is your destination, you can take a bus or you can ride the A to the J/Z. I have nothing against Jamaica, and I would love to see one of the Jamaica subway lines extended to JFK as well, but let's do one thing at a time.
Q: So why not work with the Jamaica connection and abandon the Howard Beach branch?
A: Nothing earthshattering here: the Howard Beach branch just seems cheaper to implement and more effective at carrying airport crowds into Manhattan. Between the Van Wyck headaches and the already overcrowded E train (or, alternatively, the J/Z that barely reaches Manhattan), the A appears to make more sense. If I'm wrong, no big deal -- I'll shift my attention to an extension of the E or J/Z instead of the extension to the A that I've been pushing.
I'm no big fan of the A train -- it has poor connections to the BMT in Brooklyn and the IRT in Manhattan and it has no connections at all to the IRT in Brooklyn -- but it's what's there.
As for the LIRR, the subway is more useful. Sure, the LIRR via Jamaica is better for Long Island, most of Queens, and parts of Brooklyn, but the A train is better for the rest of Queens, most of Brooklyn, Manhattan (see below), Staten Island (not that either route is terribly useful here), the Bronx, Westchester, and New Jersey. JFK is the largest airport in the region and it serves clientele from the entire region. Furthermore, the vast majority of passengers from outside the city will drive regardless of availability of train service.
Q: The A train already has two branches. If you introduce a third, midday headways will rise to a full 30 minutes (based on 6 tph for the A overall).
A: Not to worry! I've outlined a few ways to reduce the number of branches back to two:
Extend the C to Lefferts. Branch the A between JFK and Far Rockaway.
Leave the C alone. Close the Lefferts branch -- it's only three stops long and not many use it -- and run buses instead. Branch the A between JFK and Far Rockaway.
Leave the C alone. Reinstitute the round-robin H Rockaways shuttle, full-time. Branch the A between Lefferts and JFK.
Each of these leaves 3 tph -- 20-minute service -- available for JFK-bound trains. Combining two of these techniques yields the full 6 tph for JFK service. And, middays, there's tons of extra track capacity than can be filled with more JFK trains if demand warrants. (For a ballpark figure, consider that the C and the D, the two lines the A shares trackage with, each run approximately 6 tph middays. If the maximum track capacity is 30 tph, that leaves up to 24 tph for the A. Theoretically, if the line becomes popular enough, JFK-bound trains could run every 2.5 minutes. If it comes to that, the line's more popular than I would have ever imagined.)
Q: Hold it! Didn't you claim that you wanted to eliminate a transfer? With these shuttle and bus schemes, you're imposing transfers on daily commuters.
A: I sure am. I'm imposing one or two same-platform transfers on a few daily commuters so that many more luggage-laden airport passengers don't have to transfer to a different platform.
Q: The subway's slow. It takes well over an hour to get from Howard Beach to Manhattan by subway. With the AirTrain, people can take the LIRR to Jamaica an arrive at the airport in a fraction of the time, but you've done away with that option.
A: I'll start by debunking the first myth. According to the official timetables, the trip from Howard Beach to Chambers Street via the A takes 36 minutes, or 50 minutes to 59th Street. Let's reduce that a bit more -- eliminate one of the express stops in Brooklyn, either Utica or Nostrand, skip the elevated stops peak-direction via the center express track, and bypass Aqueduct at all times on the express tracks. Let's say that reduces our running time by four minutes. Now add eight minutes to get from JFK to Howard Beach -- exactly the time it will take the AirTrain, according to the official web page. Add on the average wait time of ten minutes, based on 20-minute headways -- the absolute worse service the A would see at any time of day or night. So it will take 50 minutes to get from JFK to Chambers and 64 minutes to get from JFK to 59th. The timetable doesn't list 34th Street explicitly but let's say it takes exactly one hour to get there.
Let's compare that to the time it would take via AirTrain and LIRR. According to the official web page, AirTrain will run on four-minute headways during peak times, so the average wait will be two minutes. (I'm giving the AirTrain a big advantage here by using its peak headways but the A's off-peak headways.) AirTrain to Jamaica is eight minutes -- we're up to 10. Figure eight minutes to get to the LIRR station, buy a ticket, and make it to the platform: 18. Figuring that most long-haul flights get in between roughly noon and 8pm, I consulted the LIRR schedule, and I see that service from Jamaica to Penn ranges from 4 to 6 tph -- let's figure the average is 5 tph, or 12-minute headways, for an average 6-minute wait: 24. Typical running times to Penn are about 19 minutes: 43. Give seven minutes to push through the crowds and get out of the station: that brings us to 50 minutes.
Given the choice of spending $1.50 (or less, with the help of MetroCard discounts) to get from JFK to Penn in one hour or spending $8.75 or $10.50 (off-peak vs. peak) and dragging luggage through a transfer to save ten minutes, I think most will opt for the former. Furthermore, few people are actually going to Penn itself. A train riders have dozens of transfer opportunities, many without changing platforms, and the lucky ones don't even have to transfer at all. Penn Station only connects to two trunk subway lines, one of which carries the A itself; except for passengers bound for points on the C/E (but not the A) or the 1/2/3/9, two more transfers are required via AirTrain/LIRR than via A train (AirTrain to LIRR, LIRR to first subway, first subway to second subway vs. A directly to second subway).
Clearly, riding the A directly from JFK is easier for all Manhattan-bound passengers, cheaper for all Manhattan-bound passengers, and quicker for most Manhattan-bound passengers.
Q: Stop harping on the transfers. They're all ADA-compliant, anyway; what's the big deal?
A: Transfers are a big deal. Even without luggage transfers are a big deal. ADA compliance helps, but even people with rolling luggage need to get off one train and drag it to the next -- and not everyone has rolling luggage.
Many people pay a premium or fly at inconvenient times to avoid having to change flights -- and the airline deals with the transfer of the checked luggage there. What makes you think people are so willing to carry all their luggage -- carryon and checked -- from platform to platform?
Q: Speaking of ADA compliance, only a handful of subway stations are compliant while most of the LIRR system is compliant. Wouldn't it be better for the airport to be connected to the compliant rail system?
A: Yes -- if that rail system takes people where they need to go. For most air passengers arriving at JFK, it doesn't. Does it do me any good that I can get to Merrick without climbing stairs if my destination is in Harlem?
Q: I don't want the subway to go to JFK. The subway is scary, dangerous, full of graffiti, ...
A: This is SubTalk. Are you sure you've come to the right place?
Q: The subway already has a car shortage. How do you expect to find the rolling stock to extend the A?
A: The same way the PA expects to find the rolling stock to run the AirTrain: by buying new cars.
Q: AirTrain's rolling stock is designed specifically for carrying airport passengers with luggage. The R38 is designed with generic commuters in mind. Where will passengers put their luggage?
A: On the seats -- the same place AirTrain passengers will put their luggage on whatever train they take to get to Jamaica or Howard Beach -- except with my system they don't have to transfer it from a different train. Luggage racks for the first eight minutes of an hour-long trip aren't worth much, are they?
But the A doesn't need to rely on the good old R38 or R44 anymore. We're buying new rolling stock, remember? If the new cars are designed to accomodate airport passengers without decreasing commuter capacity -- overhead luggage racks might work -- then the A train will be properly equipped for airport service.
Q: The PA has the funds for the AirTrain. The MTA doesn't have the funds for an A train extension.
A: I don't care who extends the A train. If the PA has the money, or if the PA can build track for less than the MTA, then let the PA fund it. (Remember, it's both cheaper and more useful than the AirTrain. If the PA builds anything, it might as well be the subway extension.)
Q: But the PA isn't allowed to use its funds for a subway extension. The airlines weren't even happy with the AirTrain.
A: The airlines are stupid. What more can I say? Improved access to JFK attracts fliers to JFK over the other area airports and attracts non-fliers to the world of air travel. If this isn't in the interest of the airlines, I don't know what is.
Q: I had another question, but I forgot it.
A: That's what happens when it's getting late. When you remember it, post it and I'll give it my best.
Too long post to capture an average attention span :-)
[Q:Wait! Without the line to Jamaica, I can't get home. ]
You forget that Long Island is more than Kings County. IMO interesting note is that the LIRR connection would more cut into PA-s parking revenues as most Manhattanites, tourists probably take a cab. LI would make the most sense for people to use long term parking.
Arti
You forget that Long Island is more than Kings County.
No I don't. I'm afraid that no single connection will be ideal for everyone, and I'd rather see the utility maximized for the greatest number of users. Would you prefer a line that provides mediocre service to everyone or a line that provides excellent service to many or, probably, most?
IMO interesting note is that the LIRR connection would more cut into PA-s parking revenues as most Manhattanites, tourists probably take a cab. LI would make the most sense for people to use long term parking.
Exactly. Most suburbanites who drive will continue to drive. Most Long Islanders need to drive to the LIRR station, anyway, and traffic into JFK from the east isn't nearly as bad as traffic from the west. There's really very little incentive not to drive from the east, and AirTrain won't substantially change that.
[Would you prefer a line that provides mediocre service to everyone or a line that provides excellent service to many or, probably, most? ]
Hmm.. Would you mind rereading what you just posted?
My translation would be:
Would you like a line that provides a mediocre service to everyone over a line providing an exellent service to "everyone" , but this time everyone will be defined by me as to prove my point.
Arti :-)
Are you accusing him of circular reasoning?
Good! I am, too!
I'm not sure where the confusion is. Perhaps I wasn't clear. Let me try again:
AirTrain helps everyone in the region. It doesn't help anyone very much and doesn't provide a huge improvement over current options, but it helps Long Islanders and Manhattanites alike.
An A train extension doesn't help everyone -- in particular, Long Islanders and Queensites are largely left out -- but those who it does help receive major benefits.
While AirTrain has the potential to serve more people, I don't think it will give them -- expecially the Long Islanders -- enough of an advantage over however they get to the airport today to win them over.
And don't forget that my only reason for excluding Jamaica is to save money. You want to keep the Jamaica leg? Fine, keep it -- that's a minor issue. My basic point is that there's no reason to make people change trains at Howard Beach when a track connection would better serve (nearly) everyone.
Thanks for the clarifications. Most of all thanks for starting a single thread. Let's hope it sticks.
re: time estimates. You're probably being a bit harsh here with the 8 minute connection at Jamaica -- it's going to be an escalator or elevator ride away. If anyone has even a slice of a brain, they'll sell the LIRR tickets from Jamaica to Penn at the same time they sell the (obscene) $5 AirTrain fee. Charging another 7 minutes to get out of Penn Station from the LIRR is also rather unfair when you don't charge any to exit the subway. After all, you do have to go down one flight then up two flights of stairs to get from the A train platform to the street. It's probably more like 60 minutes vs 42 minutes -- which still isn't huge.
re: luggage on the seats. This could work OK during the periods of the lightest loads when departing JFK. Travelling to JFK, many passengers would be getting on a train which already is crowded. So you get luggage in the aisles and luggage blocking the doors. Slows things down considerably.
re: cost of stations. Stations at the airport will probably be gaudy, no matter who builds them. You need to build something attractive, so that people will switch to it. Degree of gaudiness needed is debatable. One thing to keep in mind is that although AirTrain is planning on 60' cars, the stations will be built to accomodate 4 car trains, max. So an A train station would be 2.5 times the size. To be fair, there's no way the cost goes up 2.5 times -- but the need for relatively straight 600 foot platforms does give rise to the question of whether there will be enough room in between stations for a reasonable turning radius. Screeching wheels overhead will turn newcomers off -- even if the stations are ultra-gaudy.
re: where the passengers are coming from / going to. I still think you are grossly over-estimating the JFK passenger volume from Manhattan and under-estimating it from Queens and Nassau/Suffolk. I've got nothing more than educated speculation to back it up, so I won't try any longer.
CG
[re: luggage on the seats. This could work OK during the periods of the lightest loads when departing JFK. Travelling to JFK, many passengers would be getting on a train which already is crowded. So you get luggage in the aisles and luggage blocking the doors. Slows things down considerably. ]
You're onto sth. here. I just realized, that clearly E would be a bad candididate for any airport access, but so are most of the modes of transit at rush hour. As Matt-2nd AV said in his original post, needs are different.
As I see it rush hour peak direction would be totally unacceptable for airport patron with any amount of luggage.
Now I would really like to see the study suggeting the current alignment as it seems to me that we all are missing some big and probably very obvious point.
Arti
The problem isn't as great as you're making it out to be -- relatively few airport passengers will be riding into or out of Manhattan in competition with commuters -- but to the extent that it is a problem, only an entirely new line into Manhattan will solve it. The subways are jammed and the LIRR is jammed.
re: competition with commuters and luggage issues
There isn't really an issue during the A.M. inbound rush, as there aren't too many arrivals at JFK during that time. The P.M. outbound rush could be a big problem, as it coincides with the overwhelming majority of European bound takeoffs. (Generally between 6 and 10 PM).
CG
It should be noted, of course, that the PM rush / luggage issue exists on any of the solutions. It might be somewhat mitigated on the LIRR as those trains have luggage racks.
...as would new subway cars purchased for the extension. They could have overhead luggage racks, designated luggage space below the seats, and maybe even a multishelved luggage rack where the generally unused cab otherwise eats up space.
re: time estimates. You're probably being a bit harsh here with the 8 minute connection at Jamaica -- it's going to be an escalator or elevator ride away. If anyone has even a slice of a brain, they'll sell the LIRR tickets from Jamaica to Penn at the same time they sell the (obscene) $5 AirTrain fee. Charging another 7 minutes to get out of Penn Station from the LIRR is also rather unfair when you don't charge any to exit the subway. After all, you do have to go down one flight then up two flights of stairs to get from the A train platform to the street. It's probably more like 60 minutes vs 42 minutes -- which still isn't huge.
AirTrain will accept MetroCard -- otherwise I would have added a few minutes to buy that ticket as well. Remember that most passengers won't be intimately familiar with Jamaica, the AirTrain section or the LIRR section, and that most New Yorkers will need a little bit of time just to figure out the LIRR ticket procedure. (I certainly will. I haven't ridden the LIRR in over ten years. It's simply an irrelevant system to most New Yorkers.)
The LIRR train empties out entirely at Penn -- that takes more time than dumping a few people at each station on the A train. And the down-and-then-up exit from the A train is only at Penn itself -- most passengers will be getting off elsewhere, anyway.
re: luggage on the seats. This could work OK during the periods of the lightest loads when departing JFK. Travelling to JFK, many passengers would be getting on a train which already is crowded. So you get luggage in the aisles and luggage blocking the doors. Slows things down considerably.
How does AirTrain help in this respect? Instead of luggage getting in the way for the direct ride to the airport, it gets in the way as far as Howard Beach or Jamaica. My impression is that LIRR trains are crowded, and the E is worse even than the A.
I suggested including low-key luggage facilities in the new car purchase for the line. I don't think the PA plans on retrofitting LIRR and TA cars with luggage racks.
Keep in mind that peak flight arrival and departure times don't correspond to peak commuter travel times. Flights tend to leave in the morning and early afternoon, so only people catching late flights will interfere with the afternoon rush -- and very few flights arrive before 9 in the morning, so the morning rush is even less of a problem. Air travelers will, for the most part, be using the excess capacity available off-peak and reverse-peak.
re: cost of stations. Stations at the airport will probably be gaudy, no matter who builds them. You need to build something attractive, so that people will switch to it. Degree of gaudiness needed is debatable. One thing to keep in mind is that although AirTrain is planning on 60' cars, the stations will be built to accomodate 4 car trains, max. So an A train station would be 2.5 times the size. To be fair, there's no way the cost goes up 2.5 times -- but the need for relatively straight 600 foot platforms does give rise to the question of whether there will be enough room in between stations for a reasonable turning radius. Screeching wheels overhead will turn newcomers off -- even if the stations are ultra-gaudy.
Of course the stations will be gaudy, but my plan eliminates the (presumably) two gaudiest ones of all, at Jamaica and at Howard Beach.
You're right, I failed to address the issue of train length. I don't think there's a need for full 600-foot platforms. Solution 1: Adopt the South Ferry approach and let the last few cars dangle behind each station. Yes, this is a waste of good rolling stock that could be in use elsewhere, but I don't think the expense is outrageously high. Solution 2 (also a solution to the branching issue, which I outlined in one of my earlier posts but not in this long one): Develop a system to permit rapid, automatic coupling and decoupling. Retain the A's current two branches but split each train in half, sending one half to JFK and the other half on the current branch. (Yes, platform signage would have to be really good and the PA system would need to be checked regularly.) This technology could also be used on other lines -- for instance, it could be used to implement the Jamaica-to-Jamaica merger of the J and the V, with the cars not usable on the Broadway line either laid up or somehow sent somewhere else, and it could be used, particularly off-hours, to reduce headways on other branching lines (2/3 at either end, 2/5 in the Bronx, N/R at either end, E/F in Queens, etc.) by running two half-length trains to each branch in the time that currently one full-length train serves each branch. (My point here is simply that such technology could be used system-wide.)
This is a problem, and I'm not thrilled with either of my solutions. I don't think it's enough of a problem to condemn the entire approach, though (not that I'm accusing you of condemning it).
re: where the passengers are coming from / going to. I still think you are grossly over-estimating the JFK passenger volume from Manhattan and under-estimating it from Queens and Nassau/Suffolk. I've got nothing more than educated speculation to back it up, so I won't try any longer.
I'm in the same position as you; we should probably just agree to disagree at this point. But, just to clarify, I do realize that many JFK passengers come from Queens and Nassau/Suffolk, but I also realize that the vast majority come by car and will continue to come by car. The Manhattanites are the ones who will actually make use of the line.
9. Q: I don't want the subway to go to JFK. The subway is scary, dangerous, full of graffiti, ...
A: This is SubTalk. Are you sure you've come to the right place?
Probably tongue in cheek, but you've made an important point. 99.99999872% (give or take) of the people who must be attracted to a JFK connector dpn't read SubTalk.
11. Q: AirTrain's rolling stock is designed specifically for carrying airport passengers with luggage. The R38 is designed with generic commuters in mind. Where will passengers put their luggage?
A: On the seats -- the same place AirTrain passengers will put their luggage on whatever train they take to get to Jamaica or Howard Beach -- except with my system they don't have to transfer it from a different train. Luggage racks for the first eight minutes of an hour-long trip aren't worth much, are they?
Oh, that'll be a party during rush hour, when some pregnant mom or dude with a 'tude can't sit down because a yuppie air traveler has his Vuitton luggage on the seat.
Have you ever ridden one of the LIRR summer trains which mix regular commuters and weekenders with luggage?
12. Q: The PA has the funds for the AirTrain. The MTA doesn't have the funds for an A train extension.
A: I don't care who extends the A train. If the PA has the money, or if the PA can build track for less than the MTA, then let the PA fund it. (Remember, it's both cheaper and more useful than the AirTrain. If the PA builds anything, it might as well be the subway extension.)
Maybe if you say "pretty please."
Q: But the PA isn't allowed to use its funds for a subway extension. The airlines weren't even happy with the AirTrain.
A: The airlines are stupid. What more can I say? Improved access to JFK attracts fliers to JFK over the other area airports and attracts non-fliers to the world of air travel. If this isn't in the interest of the airlines, I don't know what is.
Maybe so, but they don't want it and they have the power and the law on their side. What you got?
Some questions you didn't cover:
15. Have you ever ridden a long regular service subway connector from a major airport? I have, from Heathrow to London, when it wasn't crowded, with modern pleasant equipment. Result: stops, starts anf time major irritant when you're tired, stressed and jet lagged.
16. The end of the A Line might be underused, but people's origins and destinations will not be the end of the A Line, it will be the most crowded part of the line in Manhattan. Why do you believe subway riders will be sanguine about airline passengers crowding onto "their" subways.
17. Were you around when "The Train to the Plane" was running? Did you ever ride it or take a peek inside at the passenger load? Why do you believe a regular-service "A" train will succeed where the former service failed?
Probably tongue in cheek, but you've made an important point. 99.99999872% (give or take) of the people who must be attracted to a JFK connector dpn't read SubTalk.
Yes, but I think most realize by now that the today's subway is basically safe and clean.
Oh, that'll be a party during rush hour, when some pregnant mom or dude with a 'tude can't sit down because a yuppie air traveler has his Vuitton luggage on the seat.
And how is the AirTrain any better? That same yuppie air traveler still has to get out to Howard Beach or Jamaica.
15. Have you ever ridden a long regular service subway connector from a major airport? I have, from Heathrow to London, when it wasn't crowded, with modern pleasant equipment. Result: stops, starts anf time major irritant when you're tired, stressed and jet lagged.
I addressed this. From JFK to Penn, direct A service takes a whopping ten minutes longer than AirTrain-LIRR service, it's a lot cheaper, and it avoids a transfer. From JFK to just about anywhere else in Manhattan, direct A service is faster, it's even cheaper, and it possibly avoids two transfers.
Given those two choices, I don't see why anyone would opt for AirTrain-LIRR except for a few who are going to Penn Station itself and have next to no luggage at all.
Although I haven't ridden it, I'm familiar with the Piccadilly line to Heathrow. Notice that, with few exceptions (one of them on a brief stretch of the Piccadilly line), London doesn't have express service. The A train won't be as slow. As for the new direct link to Paddington: (a) the basic Underground service is still available for those who don't want to pay extra or want the greater flexibility of the tube; (b) the Piccadilly line doesn't serve Paddington; (c) the service is direct, with no changes or tickets to buy in the middle; (d) the service is dedicated from beginning to end, with no need to share space with LIRR commuters for most of the trip; (e) luggage can be checked at Paddington.
What about other cities that have direct transit service to the airport? My impression is that it's well used. And that's without express service and without the overwhelming transit reliance particular to NYC.
16. The end of the A Line might be underused, but people's origins and destinations will not be the end of the A Line, it will be the most crowded part of the line in Manhattan. Why do you believe subway riders will be sanguine about airline passengers crowding onto "their" subways.
What makes you believe LIRR passengers will be any more pleased? In the end, they'll live. Most air passengers won't be competing with commuters, anyway.
17. Were you around when "The Train to the Plane" was running? Did you ever ride it or take a peek inside at the passenger load? Why do you believe a regular-service "A" train will succeed where the former service failed?
Let's compare.
JFK Express: express train with premium fare; transfer to slow bus
AirTrain: express train with regular fare or LIRR train with premium fare; transfer to AirTrain with premium fare
Direct A connection: express train with regular fare directly to the airport
See the similarities between AirTrain and the JFK Express? The transfer is still there and the extra fare is still there. All that's been eliminated is the slow bus ride. A direct A connection does away with all three.
A nice position paper, but I think you are operating under the assumption that the primary users of this system are New Yorkers who want to go to JFK, or, in the future, LGA. Actually, I think the primary users are going to be out-of-towners who need a quick, convenient, reasonably priced alternative to taxis to get to and from Manhattan....and $5 to Jamaica may be worth their while. (On the other hand, $5 to Howard Beach may not.) Furthermore, a Jamaica line can be extended north to LGA, so that the one could go from airport to airport on a single ride.
I would be in favor of giving the proposed system a shot. Perhaps some fare relief can be incorporated, say, pay $5 at the airport with free transfer to the subway, and a reduced fare to the airport for subway transferees.
There is also a big discussion on SubTalk concerning extending the subway into southeastern Queens via the LIRR Atlantic Branch. Perhaps a terminus at JFK (via the Rockaway Blvd back door?) may be the ultimate answer to subway service to that airport.
I object strenuously to the notion that subway fare should be determined by how much the rider is able or willing to spend. Perhaps the current $1.50 flat fare should be replaced with a distance-based fare (although I don't see how it could be implemented without causing major delays), but adopting the strategy you promote systemwide is patently offensive.
Allow me to clarify.
While the AirTrain is not part of the subway system, let's see what we can do to reduce the fare for those who connected from/to the system, while at least letting the MTA see if that price will work. And since I believe it will be paid largely by out-of-towners, and if the "profits" (if they exist) can be used to enhance the transit system generally, then more power to them.
When the subway system goes to the airport directly via extension of existing lines, then, of course, there should not be any extra fare. As a former Rockaway line rider in the 60's and 70's, I am particularly sensitive to that position.
I don't understand. If passengers ride straight through, the fare should be low, but if they have to change trains, there's nothing wrong with charging a full $5 for the little eight-minute ride at the end?
It's psychological. You advertise the AirTrain as not the subway, not the railroad, not a bus, but a "special" mode of public transportation devoted only to airport traffic, that's clean, and new, with the baggage compartments, etc. that takes you to a major transportation hub (Jamaica) where you can get quickly to Midtown Manhattan without sitting on the expressways in traffic in the back of a cab. It's the high-tech, amusement ride equivalent of the shuttle bus to the rent-a-car place.
If it is built as part of the subway, then it is just another stop; no special amenities, probably not express to Jamaica, etc. The total time taken to get to Manhattan would not be much different, but the psychological quality of the ride would be.
The first method is very conducive to the short-term business traveler or tourist, because they can get where they want to go quickly, and, compared to the horror stories about cab fares, relatively cheaply. The average New Yorker on a long-term vacation will still probably use his car or have someone drop him off. The second alternative, of course, is the one more conducive to city residents, particularly those who may work at the airport and not own a vehicle. But they didn't do it that way, so let's give the way they did do it a chance.
A very creative approach to a potential marketing problem (if it is one)!
For those of us who get stuck in tunnel-vision, you're a breath of fresh air. A very intelligent, thoughtful response. Loved reading it.
What's your background, if I may be so nosy?
A little off-topic: I assume you are a woman - with anonymous handles, one can never be sure.
How many women post on Subtalk? Is it really predominantly men here?
Ron, it is predominately men out here, most definitely. I don't know SickTransitGloria so I can't comment (and wouldn't anyway, as a matter of principle) but I do know that several females have passed through this site at different points (either from their own statements on the board or from offline emails). One of the most rabid (but responsible) railfans I know is female - she's a big steam fan, while her husband prefers diesels. Neither post here, however.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I can't imagine why that's at all desireable. Why would anyone bound for Manhattan prefer to pay $5 for an amusement park ride to Jamaica than $1.50 for a direct ride to Manhattan itself? I'm arguing here for a transportation facility, not an amusement park. If you want an amusement park, be my guest, but don't then claim that it's the best way to Manhattan when it most clearly isn't.
The average New Yorker on a long-term vacation will still probably use his car or have someone drop him off.
That would be difficult; the average New Yorker -- the average New York household, in fact -- doesn't have a car. Especially in Manhattan and Brooklyn, which the A train serves directly.
But they didn't do it that way, so let's give the way they did do it a chance.
Well, of course -- it's not like we have a choice. But are we not allowed to critique what has already been done to try to learn from our mistakes?
"I can't imagine why that's at all desireable. Why would anyone bound for Manhattan prefer to pay $5 for an amusement park
ride to Jamaica than $1.50 for a direct ride to Manhattan itself? I'm arguing here for a transportation facility, not an amusement
park. If you want an amusement park, be my guest, but don't then claim that it's the best way to Manhattan when it most clearly
isn't."
The silly reference to "amusement park ride" belongs in a political sound bite, not a serious debate - and it undermines your argument, Dave - it suggests you're not taking the subject seriously.
One could argue that anything besides heavy subway is an amusement park ride, inherently unworthy of consideration. Why shouldn't people look at Hudsen-Bergen Light Rail and say, "That's just like the silly tram that runs up and down Main Street in Disneyland. Do we need an E ticket?" By that measure, the Newark subway is a silly toy unworthy of spending any money (unless they install third rail and buy R-143's for it).
Leave the silly soundbites for the people who need them. You don't.
The silly reference to "amusement park ride" belongs in a political sound bite, not a serious debate - and it undermines your argument, Dave - it suggests you're not taking the subject seriously.
If I'm not taking the subject seriously, why did I spend a few hours writing the long post at the top of this thread?
SickTransitGloria compared the AirTrain to an amusement park ride, not me.
One could argue that anything besides heavy subway is an amusement park ride, inherently unworthy of consideration. Why shouldn't people look at Hudsen-Bergen Light Rail and say, "That's just like the silly tram that runs up and down Main Street in Disneyland. Do we need an E ticket?" By that measure, the Newark subway is a silly toy unworthy of spending any money (unless they install third rail and buy R-143's for it).
The designers of the HBLR didn't design a system uncannily similar (down to the car dimensions) to an existing, much larger system in the area, place a transfer point between the two at a location where nearly every passenger on one system would need to transfer to the other -- and then go ahead and (a) charge $5 and (b) refuse to install a track connection. (And HBLR passengers aren't generally shlepping luggage.)
SickTransitGloria compared the AirTrain to an amusement park ride in psychological effect. Maybe I'm the odd one out, but I'm looking for the best transportation facility, regardless of psychological effect. That's not AirTrain, as I made clear in my initial post to this thread.
"If I'm not taking the subject seriously, why did I spend a few hours writing the long post at the top of this thread?
SickTransitGloria compared the AirTrain to an amusement park ride, not me."
Gloria analyzed AirTrain's marketing challenges and opportunities. Her conclusions reflect her opinion, but this was clearly the context.
You, on the other hand, offered a "sound bite" with little value in any context. Your reply was not on the same level as hers, regardless of the number of words used.
If you want to ignore my points rather than responding to them, you don't need to come up with excuses.
"If you want to ignore my points rather than responding to them, you don't need to come up with excuses."
I'm not ignoring your points - I'm trying to raise the level of debate in this thread in particular.
Did you have to bring Disneyland into it. I could construe that as a knock on my Southern California. Just joshing you. But I did get egg in my face when I brought up a suggestion for a subway to the airports. I was told Airtrain was being beaten to death and where the hell had I been. I get that from not reading and thinking airtrain was the same as an airbus (plane). But it does seem riduculous that a great transportation system like the New York Subway cannot provide adequate transportation to the airports. That bus that take you to LaGuardia from Jackson Heights or Woodside takes forever to get there.
I agree with you.
The egg on your face was nothing like the omelette I earned when I misinterpreted the Michelson-Morley experiment while discussing the speed of light. In addition to the omelette, I got lashes with both linguini and angel-hair pasta...:0)
Well Ron, as they say: Misery loves company. Now I don't feel so lonely. I'll tell you this. I will never mix up Airtrain with Airbus again.
There is one possible link between the two: If Bombardier Aerospace's French unit(s) Division built any components as a subcontractor to Aerospatiale...
"I object strenuously to the notion that subway fare should be determined by how much the rider is able or willing to spend.
Perhaps the current $1.50 flat fare should be replaced with a distance-based fare (although I don't see how it could be
implemented without causing major delays), but adopting the strategy you promote systemwide is patently offensive."
Only to the closed-minded among us. I have avoided this thread because I've said my peace on the subject (and it's being built). But Washington's distance-based fare was set-up in part because distant commuters are more able to afford it. In New York, for the subway, that's not the case, but Gloria does propose a reasonably equitable scenario to try out. And Washington and PATCO have shown than systems with entry and exit swipes can work even with crowded trains.
Charge $6 on entry, but when you exit, put $5 back on the card? That way people in a hurry don't have to re-swipe.
In other words, charge the maximum fare at first, and then deduct back down to the proper distance-based fare after the fact?
Interesting approach. I see two problems. First, few would be willing to forego the differential; if you're willing to do without, that doesn't help much if the crowd in front of you is swiping away. Second, it would be impossible to enter the system without the maximum fare on the card, even if most will be refunded in the end; short-haul riders will never be able to zero out their cards. This would hurt tourists most of all.
Separate the exits. People willing to pay the whole $6 and gain a little anonymity and time will walk through one set of exits; people wanting to wait to get their money back go through another set of exits. Unlimited-ride people can use either exit, but if they swipe it has no effect.
Don't most tourists buy the FunPass anyways? I'd probably set the "maximum fare" at the same price as the one-day pass.
Another idea -- have a MVM or something which allows the user to add a one-day funpass onto their stored value card, maybe even with money that is already on the card!
Okay, let's examine this approach.
First of all, not all passengers to the airport are flying anywhere at all. Some are picking up or dropping off friends or relatives. Some are airport employees. They should be charged $1.50, then, right? And what about people who can only afford discount flights?
On the flip side, tickets to (e.g.) concerts at Lincoln Center and games at Yankee Stadium are expensive. Why not charge people extra if they're going to LC and YS? After all, they can clearly afford an extra few dollars. What about people going to fancy restaurants?
Washington has a distance-based fare not because long-distance commuters are rich but simply because a long commute costs the transit agency more than a short commute. As I've said many times, I'd have no objection if the TA moved to a distance-based fare system (as a Manhattanite, I'd largely benefit from such a move), although I'm not as convinced as you are that such a system wouldn't slow down exiting to a crawl.
My objections are twofold: first, that passengers who can afford more (whatever that means) should pay more (by a factor of four!) than passengers who can't; and second, that it's reasonable to judge how much someone can afford by which station they go to.
I don't think my first objection needs much elaboration. A transit system is not the place to levy taxes on the rich. If you want to tax the rich to subsidize the poor, fine, but that has nothing to do with riding the trains and it shouldn't be incorporated into fare collection.
As for my second objection, you assume that someone who rides the short distance from, say, East New York to JFK must be some sort of rich guy pouring away lots of money on a vacation in Spain -- when, in fact, he may be a ticket agent for Delta or he may be a minimum wage earner embarking on the cheapest way he's found to his uncle's funeral in Texas tomorrow morning. You also assume that someone who rides the long distance from, say, Pelham Bay Park to Prospect Park is a poor commuter who can barely scrounge up the $1.50 to enter the system -- when, in fact, he may be a rich tourist on vacation from Spain checking out the city's fine parks. The generalization just doesn't work.
However you slice it, charging $1.50 to ride anywhere in the city except to or from JFK, where a $5.00 premium applies, makes no sense. Either charge $1.50 no matter what or transition to a fully distance-based system.
"First of all, not all passengers to the airport are flying anywhere at all. Some are picking up or dropping off friends or relatives.
Some are airport employees. They should be charged $1.50, then, right? And what about people who can only afford discount
flights?
On the flip side, tickets to (e.g.) concerts at Lincoln Center and games at Yankee Stadium are expensive. Why not charge
people extra if they're going to LC and YS? After all, they can clearly afford an extra few dollars. What about people going to
fancy restaurants? "
There is a way to do that. Many destinations have offered inducements to come by train (free LIRR fare etc. if you buy show tickets). If the airlines would like to toss in a free commutation ticket with purchase of air ticket - that's their business.
"Washington has a distance-based fare not because long-distance commuters are rich but simply because a long commute costs
the transit agency more than a short commute."
Yes, correct.
"I don't think my first objection needs much elaboration. A transit system is not the place to levy taxes on the rich. If you want to
tax the rich to subsidize the poor, fine, but that has nothing to do with riding the trains and it shouldn't be incorporated into fare
collection."
That's your opinion, and you're entitled to it. Others may not agree with you.
"As for my second objection, you assume that someone who rides the short distance from, say, East New York to JFK must be
some sort of rich guy pouring away lots of money on a vacation in Spain -- when, in fact, he may be a ticket agent for Delta or
he may be a minimum wage earner embarking on the cheapest way he's found to his uncle's funeral in Texas tomorrow
morning."
I assume nothing myself. But the fact is, when you get on LIRR or Metro-North, you will pay more the further out you get. On the commuter railroads, and on WMATA, it may work out that, statistically, you're more likely to be better-to-do if you're coming from a distance (I do not state that for a fact, I am merely acknowledging its possibility). Doesn't matter - you're still going to pay more for a Zone 6 ticket than for a Zone 3 etc. That's OK with me.
Incidentally, on SEPTA, when you ride to the Airport on the R1 line, you always pay peak fare. It is considered a premium service.
"However you slice it, charging $1.50 to ride anywhere in the city except to or from JFK, where a $5.00 premium applies,
makes no sense. Either charge $1.50 no matter what or transition to a fully distance-based system."
You're entitled to your opinion. As I said before, others may not agree. That doesn't make them wrong, automatically.
There is a way to do that. Many destinations have offered inducements to come by train (free LIRR fare etc. if you buy show tickets). If the airlines would like to toss in a free commutation ticket with purchase of air ticket - that's their business.
You got it backwards. I asked why we don't charge people a greater fare if they're spending a lot of money at their destination (like you would like to charge JFK passengers extra).
That's your opinion, and you're entitled to it. Others may not agree with you.
Of course, but I can't imagine why anyone would want to redistribute wealth via the transit system. It seems incredibly inefficient to me. Charge people the appropriate transit fare; redistribute wealth separately.
I assume nothing myself. But the fact is, when you get on LIRR or Metro-North, you will pay more the further out you get. On the commuter railroads, and on WMATA, it may work out that, statistically, you're more likely to be better-to-do if you're coming from a distance (I do not state that for a fact, I am merely acknowledging its possibility). Doesn't matter - you're still going to pay more for a Zone 6 ticket than for a Zone 3 etc. That's OK with me.
That's okay with me too -- I have nothing against charging by distance, and zones are usually a reasonable approximation.
But charging a $5 premium to go to JFK (from anywhere), and $1.50 to go anywhere else in the system, is not at all a reasonable approximation.
If it's a distance-based fare, it's grossly out of whack. If it's a who-can-afford-it-based fare, it's based on assumptions of who can afford it. You seem to be denying both. So what is it?
Incidentally, on SEPTA, when you ride to the Airport on the R1 line, you always pay peak fare. It is considered a premium service.
I've never ridden SEPTA. Is there another route to the airport? How do peak fares compare to off-peak fares? Is the airport within the region that's served by rapid (subway-style) transit or is it served by commuter rail only?
"I've never ridden SEPTA. Is there another route to the airport? How do peak fares compare to off-peak fares? Is the airport
within the region that's served by rapid (subway-style) transit or is it served by commuter rail only? "
The R1 commuter train is the only mass transit option to the airport. It runs every half-hour, visiting all terminals (arranged linearly). The peak fare is comparable to some other peak fares for outer suburban zones on the system.
For comparison, my 18 minute ride from Center City to a Zone 2 neighborhood is $2.75, and $3.50 peak. (Fares are set to change soon).
"I've never ridden SEPTA. Is there another route to the airport? How do peak fares compare to off-peak fares? Is the airport
within the region that's served by rapid (subway-style) transit or is it served by commuter rail only? "
The R1 commuter train is the only mass transit option to the airport. It runs every half-hour, visiting all terminals (arranged linearly). The peak fare is something like $5 (last time I rode) comparable to some other peak fares for outer suburban zones on the system.
For comparison, my 18 minute ride from Center City to a Zone 2 neighborhood is $2.75, and $3.50 peak. (Fares are set to change soon).
In other words, the airport is in a part of the region that's only served by commuter rail. Pricing it within the commuter rail system, then, makes sense. I don't know why it warrants peak fares at all times, but (if your example of a Center City - Zone 2 commute is any indication) peak fares are only about 27% higher than off-peak fares.
OTOH, JFK is in a part of the region -- namely, NYC itself -- that is served by the subway. It deserves to be integrated into the subway system, both in track and in price. As for peak vs. off-peak fares, the subway doesn't charge a premium for peak service at all, and even if it did, don't you think a 333% premium is a bit on the high side?
"In other words, the airport is in a part of the region that's only served by commuter rail. Pricing it within the commuter rail
system, then, makes sense. I don't know why it warrants peak fares at all times, but (if your example of a Center City - Zone 2
commute is any indication) peak fares are only about 27% higher than off-peak fares."
Correct, but remember that in Philadelphia, the longest subway line (Market-Frankford) covers only 13 miles from end to end. So the commuter rail-only region is closer into the city than it would be in New York.
And you are correct regarding the fare structure. It's changing soon, and there is the usual complaining, but it's not totaly out-of-line from other cities like NY (except that $5 and change in NY gets you from Penn to New Hyde Park, and in Philly that amount of money wouldn't take you as far). The structure is proportional.
"OTOH, JFK is in a part of the region -- namely, NYC itself -- that is served by the subway. It deserves to be integrated into
the subway system, both in track and in price. As for peak vs. off-peak fares, the subway doesn't charge a premium for peak
service at all, and even if it did, don't you think a 333% premium is a bit on the high side?"
The market will decide. The only true way to discover the elasticity of demand is to see what happens after they cut the ribbon.
Correct, but remember that in Philadelphia, the longest subway line (Market-Frankford) covers only 13 miles from end to end. So the commuter rail-only region is closer into the city than it would be in New York.
Of course. Philadelphia doesn't rely as heavily on its subway as New York relies on its. I'm not asking that New York's subway be extended way out into the boondocks -- I'm asking that it be extended over a new three-mile line that's being built regardless. Just put in the track connection and drop the extra fare!
The market will decide. The only true way to discover the elasticity of demand is to see what happens after they cut the ribbon.
Are you in favor of market-based fare pricing throughout or only to the airport?
"Are you in favor of market-based fare pricing throughout or only to the airport?"
Personally, I believe the airport is a premium destination, so I'm not terribly upset about this pricing.
Remember that taxis and car services also charge extra to go to airports (the taxi line is coveted at many airports because the cab driver knows that rides will be longer. So airport authorities charge a fee for the cab to be there.
But really, I was stating the consequences of a fait accompli. It's built - we'll see what happens.
Personally, I believe the airport is a premium destination, so I'm not terribly upset about this pricing.
What's a premium destination? What makes a destination premium? Are there any other premium destinations in NYC? Why do you make this distinction at all?
Remember that taxis and car services also charge extra to go to airports (the taxi line is coveted at many airports because the cab driver knows that rides will be longer. So airport authorities charge a fee for the cab to be there.
I don't know about airport authorities charging a fee, but taxis do not charge extra to go to airports. Trips to and from LGA are on the meter, plain and simple. Trips to JFK are on the meter; trips from JFK to anywhere in Manhattan are charged a flat fee of, IIRC, $30 -- that's not an extra charge; it's simply a way of preventing cabbies from giving their passengers from out of town extended tours of the city and charging for them per mile. Trips to EWR are covered under a separate clause, simply because they're the only common out-of-state destination (other out-of-state destinations, IIRC, aren't computed on the meter at all). NYC cabbies can't take trips from EWR at all, which is why the meter tally outside NYC is doubled for trips to EWR.
Trips to EWR are covered under a separate clause, simply because they're the only common out-of-state destination (other out-of-state destinations, IIRC, aren't computed on the meter at all). NYC cabbies can't take trips from EWR at all, which is why the meter tally outside NYC is doubled for trips to EWR.
I believe Newark Airport trips are meter + r/t tolls + $10.
Thanks for the correction.
Then the $10 surcharge is to compensate the cabbie for his return to NYC, which is by law fare-free.
It's destinations in Westchester and Nassau that are 2x distance outside city limits.
Other destinations in NJ are "negotiated" fare, which means the cabby charges you $100 for anywhere in northern NJ.
I appreciate your effort in taking the time to repost your position in a new thread. However, you still only realize half the purpose of AirTrain. As such, I must object to your challenges.
The basis of design for AirTrain, as per the Port Authority's needs, is two-fold: 1) To connect JFK commuters to other transportation points outside Port Authority property, and 2) to circulate airpot passengers within the airport grounds.
Paying respect to only the first point, you give it too much weight in your analysis. In turn, you completely neglect the second need of the Port Authority, as evidenced by the following quote:
"It deserves to be integrated into the subway system, both in track and in price."
You make two assertions: 1) that AirTrain should be integrated into the subway via direct track connections, and 2) that there should be no separate fare.
I'm not going to argue the fare. Is $5 written in stone anyways? Or is that just a SubTalk rumor?
Regardless, your assertion that AirTrain should be integrated into the subway system with a track connection demonstrates your misunderstanding of AirTrain.
Let's assume there is no separate fare.
You place too much weight on the ease of travel for subway users coming directly from Manhattan. How much inconvenience are you willing to put other AirTrain users through just so you can have a direct subway ride to JFK?
Residents living along the Lefferts Boulevard Branch? They can lose their subway for a shuttle bus. After all, "it's only three stops."
Long Island Railroad users? They can take a bus to Jamaica.
Passengers circulating within JFK? They can haul their luggage on standard MTA subway equipment. It'll just go on the seats or something.
The Port Authority? It can accomodate 600 foot long platforms, even when it has already done a study indicating that much train isn't required.
In conclusion, the Port Authroity has conducted a series of ridership studies that established the dual purpose of AirTrain. You object to the lack of a dirct connection vigorously, yet you have offered no ridership numbers to contradict the Port Authority.
The basis of design for AirTrain, as per the Port Authority's needs, is two-fold: 1) To connect JFK commuters to other transportation points outside Port Authority property, and 2) to circulate airpot passengers within the airport grounds.
Paying respect to only the first point, you give it too much weight in your analysis. In turn, you completely neglect the second need of the Port Authority, as evidenced by the following quote:
"It deserves to be integrated into the subway system, both in track and in price."
How does connecting one track to another imply that every train on one track must proceed to the other?
A train service to the airport would clearly not be sufficient to circulate passengers around the airport. Some trains would continue off the airport grounds as A trains; others would only circulate.
I'm not going to argue the fare. Is $5 written in stone anyways? Or is that just a SubTalk rumor?
I'm told it's appeared in newspapers. I don't remember if I've seen it myself.
From a statement on the AirTrain web page, the clear implication is that there will be a charge of some sort for off-airport travel. Even if it's not $5, my objection stands; if 722 miles are available $1.50, there's no justification for any additional charge for 3.3 more miles.
Let's assume there is no separate fare.
Fine. I hope our assumption comes true.
You place too much weight on the ease of travel for subway users coming directly from Manhattan. How much inconvenience are you willing to put other AirTrain users through just so you can have a direct subway ride to JFK?
My basic point is simply that there should be a track connection between the AirTrain Howard Beach leg and the A train. All the rest are details. In particular, my proposed cancellation of the Jamaica leg is simply a cost-saving move, since with a direct A connection I'm not convinced service to Jamaica is necessary. If you think it's indispensable, fine, build it -- that really doesn't affect my basic point one bit.
Residents living along the Lefferts Boulevard Branch? They can lose their subway for a shuttle bus. After all, "it's only three stops."
Is there some fundamental rule that anyone who has subway service must never lose it? If not, I can't understand your objection. It's not like the Lefferts branch sees terribly heavy crowding. Many, many, many more people would be served by direct service to JFK, and a transfer is less of an ordeal for passengers without luggage. Although I'd love to give everyone direct service to wherever they're going, that's impossible, and doesn't it make sense to inconvenience the few for the benefit of the many?
(Bus service might not even be seen as an inconvenience at all. It's more flexible -- the bus could run on a different street, make different stops, run a bit further -- whatever. Traffic isn't a major issue around there, IINM.)
But, if you still don't like bus service to Lefferts, I seem to recall giving a number of other options: shuttle train service to Lefferts, extended C service to Lefferts, shuttle train service to the Rockaways -- and if you don't mind entertaining the option of new technology, splitting trains in half.
And none of this even applies off-peak, when track capacity is easily sufficient to support all three branches of the A.
Long Island Railroad users? They can take a bus to Jamaica.
The vast majority of potential LIRR riders will drive or be driven directly from the airport anyway, regardless of what sort of train service is available to Jamaica. I prefer to spend my money where it will get used.
Still, as I've said -- if you're convinced omitting the Jamaica connection will inconvenience large numbers of passengers, build it. It doesn't conflict with an A connection in any way.
Passengers circulating within JFK? They can haul their luggage on standard MTA subway equipment. It'll just go on the seats or something.
Did I ever suggest that? No, I said that requiring passengers on the A train to put there luggage "on the seats or something" isn't a step down from luggage accomodations on the AirTrain for those passengers since that would only give them accomodations for the last eight minutes, post-transfer, of a much longer ride. I also said that new car acquisitions should include low-key luggage accomodations.
None of this applied to the cars used for airport circulation only. Those can be laid out however is best for airport circulation alone, since no regular commuters will ride those trains.
Not that I think it makes much of a difference. Have you ever ridden airport circulation trains elsewhere? I have -- at Gatwick, O'Hare, and Pittsburgh -- and, if there were luggage accomodations at all, few used them. Most passengers preferred to keep their luggage with them. The R38 is as suited as anything else for this usage. (I wouldn't recommend using the R44, though.)
The Port Authority? It can accomodate 600 foot long platforms, even when it has already done a study indicating that much train isn't required.
I explicitly said otherwise in a recent post! I suggested letting the extra cars dangle out of each station (which is wasteful but no more wasteful than running full-length cars on ends of lines that don't fill them up) or uncoupling and running only half-length trains to the airport.
"The vast majority of potential LIRR riders will drive or be driven directly from the airport anyway, regardless of what sort of
train service is available to Jamaica. I prefer to spend my money where it will get used."
Unsupported assertion, Dave. You have not done any research and have nothing objective with which to back up your opinion. There is no rail option to the airport and we have no experience here with it. Experience in London, Atlanta, Philadelphia, suggests this modality can be popular. But we won't know for sure until service begins and we watch ridership levels for a few months, tweaking headways and fares.
Why do you repeatedly harp on a point I explicitly said was irrelevant?
You want your service to Jamaica? Fine, take it. It's yours. Enjoy.
All I ask for is a track connection at Howard Beach.
What's your opinion of Jarvis International?
TIA,
Arti
Arti, not sure which Jarvis International you mean and in which context.
Simon
Swindon UK
They currently are a member of a consortium (25%) to privatize Estonian Railways. As I understand they are an infrastructure company. My interest is because of a lot of controversy (perhaps corruption surrounding it,) just curious what are they about. Looks like there's a hotel company with the same name (google serch results,) and I dont meant hat.
Arti
The R143's are going to be transfered Tonight right after the ;ast one come in. I got the info. from a Supervisor last night when I saw 8103 come in. He sad that the route will be as follow. 200th street down the Exrpess to 59th street, 59th street over the "D" express 6th ave to switch before W4th street to the local "F". W4th street to Essix Street Cut onto the "J" over the bridge into the middle into East New York Yard. Hope some of you guys can wait to got some pic. of the Transfer as it gose by. It will be after midnight most likey after 1:00am. The truck get to the yard around 11:30pm and it takes about 1 1/2 hours to unload the car off the truck.
Robert
I hope someone gets pictures !!!
Calling the Subtalk Camera Commando Team! Condition Red, Scramble! R143 Bogies spotted in railyard! You are cleared for emergency departure!
(If you are caught or killed, the Secretary will disavow any knowledge of your actions)
I wish I knew it was tonight instead of tomorrow night. Some of my classmates will begin yard posting at both 207 and ENY tonight, and I couls have told them to watch out for it. (I get both yards next week)
Well have fun. I wish I could do it my self, but I would get home to late. I have it watch my kid when my wife leave for work at 6:30am. I would say the best shots shoud be 125st, 59st, 7ave, W4st and Broadway Leftest & the hole "J" line. Someone shoud try to be on the other side and the Bridge to get it coming off the "S" turns.
Robert
THE EXCITEMENT IS KILLING ME !!!
Bill "Newkirk"
Hopefully they'll park it on the track closest to Bushwick Ave for everyone to see.
I heard Track 7.
Where is that in relationship to Bushwick Avenue ? Next Wednesday I might be able to pass there at about 3:30 PM. If the weather is good (and I pray that it is) where is a good spot to get a pic?
There is no goosd spots. Track 7 is in side the barn. It will be there getting ready the testing and training.
Did any one get shots of the transfer last night/this moring.
Robert
It will be kept inside ENY shop on track #7
Recent additions to the bullets on my site are the following:
(2)
‹2›
(5)
(A)
(B)
(C)
(D)
(E)
(E)
(F)
(F)
(F)
(K)
‹M›
‹R›
and
(R)
The URL is http://rmmarrero.topcities.com/museum/bullets/. Please note that you can't use these bullets directly on your site because TopCities won't allow that. I'll see about getting Dave to UL them here, but I'm not sure about that, though.
Here you go, just add frames.
-Dan
It's IFRAME! A standard Frameset won't work in the body of a post.
And what ever happened to previewing messages before polluting the board with erroneous posts.
For those of you who haven't seen them yet, here they are.
[And what ever happened to previewing messages before polluting the board with erroneous posts]
Some people just don't bother to test what they intend to post. With just plain text that's no problem. But with HTML tags, even the simple ones, you need to click the Preview Message Before Posting button.
The Preview Message Before Posting button is on the left side below the message field.
This message has been previewed before posting to make sure everything works right.
For those of you who haven't seen them yet, here they are.
Copy cat! :-)
A few notes:
There was never a yellow diamond M. What people were seeing was the upside down "W". W is next to N, and since "N" looks the same upside down, the crews would often stop scrolling as soon as they saw it, not realizing that the outside was displaying the next letter upside down.
another idea I had but never got to create was pre-1967 and early post-1967 routes in 1979 color bullets:
Yellow: T QT, 1, 2, 3, 4, NX, EE
Brown: KK, TT, 1, 2, 3, 5, 10, 14, 15, JJ, QJ, RJ
Orange: BB, KK, MM
And perhaps:
black or gray: 7, 11, 12, 13, 16
Some bullets are in memory of some reroutes I've seen. Yellow Diamond M is one that I actually rode on from 9th St, Brooklyn to Times Square via Broadway Express.
[another idea I had but never got to create was pre-1967 and early post-1967 routes in 1979 color bullets:
Yellow: T QT, 1, 2, 3, 4, NX, EE
Brown: KK, TT, 1, 2, 3, 5, 10, 14, 15, JJ, QJ, RJ
Orange: BB, KK, MM
And perhaps:
black or gray: 7, 11, 12, 13, 16]
I could do it for ya. :)
A woman jumped in front of a NJT train from the station platform at South Orange yesterday.
brief Star-Ledger story
The engineer saw her jump. More info in Friday's Star-Ledger.
Lost my reply to Motorman Marc in Cyberspace so try again. Unfortunately this is the age of cosmetics; I can relate to how those who loved the SMEE fleet feel about what's coming in now, especially the loss of the railfan window. Chicago did even better...the 6000's and 2000 thru 3l00's had railfan seats too.(now undone by remodelling for OPTO....the 3200's were first cars with no railfan window)
I was one of those wide eyed kids looking out the front window in the early 50's. It helped influence me into what later became a RR career both with NYCT and in Montana.
You may find it interesting that the first IRT subway cars had no railfan windows. First steel ones anyway...I never rode a composite.The 1904 Gibbs cars had sliding doors that shut off the vestibule and a swinging storm door that covered the front so as much as I liked them for their interiors (old IRT's nicest) I hated seeing one at the point of my train...no railfan window for that ride.Could tell when one was coming in the subway..the whole front end was black except for markers...no cheery yellow glow at the window. [I'm sure the composites had a glass storm door window orginally, maybe not, but they also had those doors to shut off the vestibules.] Best wishes from a fellow Motorman.
Hey there Ed,
I knew you would understand. After all, you wrote a whole book about this subject! You expressed your love of the subway in a way that was both technical and 'fan-like.' Your book should be in every railfans' library. The way I look at this, if you have memories-good memories-then what you liked is never really gone. There are many good books (like yours) that are out there nowadays, so that's a help. This website, and the good folks on it that share this interest is also good.
Cheers Ed, the best to you.
And Ed's got a special on "They moved Millions" ... since I get paid once a month, I'm still waiting to collect my "nut" but as soon as I do, I'm planning on getting ME a copy of it too ... hopefully Uncle Ed will be willing to post the addy here so others can come and collect their own copy without it seeming like some shameless advertisement.
Ed? Where can others get a copy of your book? Come on ... don't be shy ... :)
I couldn't have asked for a better post to think about all day. Thanks for the kind comments.
PATH is still the coolest. It has TWO windows, one with a seat! I hope when PATH gets new equipment, they don't go full length. EVERYONE loves that seat. It's the first seat people run to. I have knocked over small children and old ladies to grab that seat! Just kidding. ;)
Market-Frankford subway on SEPTA is even better. There are 2 windows and the seat is facing forward.
"PATH is still the coolest. It has TWO windows, one with a seat! I hope when PATH gets new equipment, they don't go full length. EVERYONE loves that seat. It's the first seat people run to. I have knocked over small children and old ladies to grab that seat! Just kidding. ;)"
So that was YOU who knocked my mother over! Ha-ha, just kidding.
I know what you mean; every weekend my kid begs me to go on PATH. He's been seduced by the low front window and the extremely speedy outdoor run from JSQ to NWK. Why else would anyone WANT to go to New Jersey?! (OK, Jerseyites, let me have it!)
As someone else said, the M4s on the MFL also has two front railfan windows, one with a seat. This seat is even better than the one on PATH; it faces foward directly to the window so you don't have to look sideways.
OK, OK, I surrender. The medium does matter. The following quote:
n physics, the change in direction of a wave passing from one medium to another caused
by its change in speed. For example, waves in deep water travel faster than in shallow; if
an ocean wave approaches a beach obliquely, the part of the wave farther from the beach
will move faster than that closer in, and so the wave will swing around until it moves in a
direction perpendicular to the shoreline. The speed of sound waves is greater in warm air
than in cold; at night, air is cooled at the surface of a lake, and any sound that travels
upward is refracted down by the higher layers of air that still remain warm. Thus, sounds,
such as voices and music, can be heard much farther across water at night than in the
daytime.
The electromagnetic waves constituting light are refracted when crossing the boundary
from one transparent medium to another because of their change in speed. A straight stick
appears bent when partly immersed in water and viewed at an angle to the surface other
than 90°. A ray of light of one wavelength, or colour (different wavelengths appear as
different colours to the human eye), in passing from air to glass is refracted, or bent, by an
amount that depends on its speed in air and glass, the two speeds depending on the
wavelength. A ray of sunlight is composed of many wavelengths that in combination
appear to be colourless; upon entering a glass prism, the different refractions of the
various wavelengths spread them apart as in a rainbow.
TThe above was posted from Encyclopedia Britannica (britannica.com), under "Refraction."
Damn! I just missed the beatings. Heh. Your turn in the barrel then. I did mine earlier for blasheming Kawasaki Heavy Industries. :)
Bustini bustini ... now go in peace, my son. Heh.
Step livety, Watch the closing doors, please ... bing bong!
I looked up refraction myself to check on my own logic and found out I was wrong.
Of course, the magnitude of the speed of light is such that in practical terms, it doesn't matter much.
Newton's Laws, if I recall correctly, hold in the "macro" sense but now we see that Einstein added a "correction factor", affecting the precision of results.
OK ... then the beatings shall now commence. :)
Einstein had a great grasp ... he predicted a lot of things that have come to pass including a physics reality that is shared between nuclear detonations and klystron tubes (hint: UHF TV stations use Klystrons in the transmitter to give you FOX in most ADI's) ... that of time curvature ... really seriously WEIRD things in the vicinity of nuclear explosions, particularly dialation of time, space and a number of other oddities that just don't fit the science. I think that "Trinity" was a major factor in Albert's "ahem. Whoops." there ...
Do you know if we've detected any gravity waves yet? I know there are detectors in the ground in the US and in Japan...
I thought it was a routine event ... and since we're (ahem) a runaway on this topic, I'm sure you know about the (ahem) "gravity hole" off Peru in the Pacific that were it not for routine releases of gasjets on geostationary satellites, would cause them to all lump up at the same position in space with respect to the earth?
There's some things that inquiring mimes has better NOT no. :)
Fig Newton's Laws = You just can't eat one....
BMTman
How true. Einstein ate all of them..
Nice come back Ron ... you guys were TRYING to have a serious discussion. Well, so much for solving the problems of the Universe.
Mr t__:^)
Fudd's theorem ... "if you push something hard enough, it will fall over." Teslicle's devium to Fudd's theoem, "it goes in, it MUST come out." Yep, we're up to date on the latest rocket science. :)
Been listening to those old Firesign Theater records, I see.
Peace,
ANDEE
Yeah, musta been all those days doing radio ... corrupted me beyond salvation which is why I live upstate now. Now, Mr. Smartypants ... why does the porridge bird lay his egg in the air? (Proctor and Bergman *did* answer this one in "Big Mystery Jokebook) ...
Crow is a dish best served cold (a little Bar-B-Que sauce ain't a bad idea).
Actually, it probably tastes like chicken.....;-)
BMTman
Want some? There's about 600 crows on the property here - nobody's gonna miss a few. And yes, they do taste like chicken which is why my favorite dish is Wild Turkey (yes, we've got several flocks of those here too) and it happens to be turkey season here at the moment though I prefer my Wild Turkey on the rocks or with Cola ... but then, that's me. :)
I preferred the sound of those trigger caps on the oldtimers myself.:-)
Yeah, if you had a bad day you could beat them up and get it out of your system. :)
And for the curious, here are the equations for modeling refraction and speed of light in a medium:
n is called the index of refraction
A is the angle of refraction
Say n1 is air (its n-value is esstienally zero) and n2 is the index of refraction of the medium you want to find what the speed of light is in it. The equation to find n2, if you measure the angles experimentally, is:
n1 sin A1=n2 sin A2
You then plug n2 into this equation and solve for v:
n2=V/C
Where c is the speed of light and v is the new speed of light.
The smart people out there will see that n can never be greater than 1. You know why?
Sorry to bore every one with all this Physics, but I just finished taking my Physics 2 final exam about 2 hours ago, and stuff like this was on it. I thought I'd let everyone suffer the same way I did :)
Say n1 is air (its n-value is esstienally zero)
That should say:
Say n1 is air (its n-value is esstienally one)
Oy! I don't even remember what a "sin" is!
I expect thay'll be taking back my high school diploma now.
:-) Andrew
I'm finally finished with all my school work for this semester and here I am explaining school stuff to people!!
Sine(sin), along with cosine(cos), tangent(tan), and three other trigonometric functions are ratios for finding the lengths of the sides of a triangle. In short, sin means opposite over hypotonuese. That's all I can explain.
For the calculus folks here, the derivative of y=sin(x) is dy/dx=cos(x), and the integral of dy=sin(x) dx is y=-cos(x) And no, I'm not explaining those to anyone!
An integral is "thearea underthe curve."
Integration sequence: Line --->circle---->sphere
Taught appropriately, math is poetry. It is beautiful.
Oh dear, mixed messages again!
Before anyone flames, I have read all the posts!
1. Waves travelling in water of different depths travel at different speeds due to friction (the result of which is that waves break in shallow water). I don’t know how this equates with change in medium.
2. Waves are refracted when passing from a medium of one density to another. That is why the stick is bent. RonInBayside gave us the math, but failed to mention that this is Snell’s law:
Sin i
----- = Refractive Index
Sin r
where i = Angle of Incidence, r = Angle of Refraction.
Useless unless you are building a telescope.
The only other way I could suggest you observe this is by going underwater and looking up. Up to a certain point, you see a distorted view of the world above. After that, the water surface looks like a mirror, due to a phenomenon called total internal reflection, which is what happens when the light ray would be refracted more than 90 degrees.
Different wavelengths are refracted differently, hence a prism gives you a rainbow.
So what does this have to do with subways?!
John.
PS: I last looked at a physics textbook 25 years ago!
Hey! You're making me look bad here! I don't even remember what a sin and cosin are!
Here's what I do remember:
Momentum=mass*velocity--vector quantity (magnitude AND direction)
work=force*distance--scalar quantity (magnitude only)
energy=mass*speed of light squared
six trillion miles=approximately one light year
eight hundred yers=the time it takes a (J) train to get from Chambers Street to Jamaica Center, running express AND skip stop.
(Is it relavant now?)
;-) Andrew
"Useless unless you are building a telescope."
Or want to learn something because it's fun. Thanks for teaching.
Your equation assumes that the angle of incidence is in air or a vacuum, my equation is the more general version that can be used for any two mediums. But you're right it is Snell's law.
Any Nostalgia Trains scheduled yet? I rememer the one the ERA had where we took a Low-V through almost the entire IRT. Are there any plans to do that one again?
The TA museum only does the Southern Division which gets played out after awhile.
I believe the Lo-Vs need some mechanical work. The D Types went out twice last year (a two car set of six sections). The 3rd set is stuffed & mounted at the TA Museum.
BTW, I'm still hoping that the Standards (3) get finished soon. I think the last time they were out was in the 80s.
Mr t__:^)
Thurston: You or someone else has got to let me know personally when the D's are going to run again. I want to ride on a Triplex like you cannot imagine. I keep hearing of these things after the fact. I don't want to miss out again if I can. And who schedules which cars are going out on fan trips anyway?
fred... according to a letter i received from the transit museum 2 days ago, the triplexes are scheduled to run as the nostalgia train on june 17, july 15, and july 29... they will go to the transit museum and then out to the rockaways...
heypaul: Good to hear from you. I wondered why you weren't on line for awhile. I will see if I can wrangle my way to New York for one of those jaunts. I wonder why the Triplexes are going to the Rockaways. It would seem more realistic to run them on the Brighton or Sea Beach lines since that was where they ran when they dominated the NYC Subway with their elegence, grace, and yet unbridled power.
They wanted to do something completely different ....
Mr t__:^)
when are they going to run them. I have been off for a while
Heypaul answered that on May 3rd on this thread, but just in case you missed it ... June 17, July 15, and July 29. Now this is the "scheduled" dates according to another poster. The new Museum brochure is just about to be released, then "members" will get first crack at a ride. There will be a date when the general public can sign up, call on or about that date & you'll probally get one.
I'll probally pass it up since I just did one in the Fall, now if the 4 car train of Lo-Vs was coming out I would be right there in line. We all know where the 5th car is ... doing just fine thank you.
Mr t__:^)
It's...
Perhaps because from Court St that is the easiest interesting place to go.
I guess I will have to come up one of those weekends
How can I get on a Nostalgia Train? Doesn't one have to be a member of the Transit Museum to go? Can I go if I'm not?
Dan
the 3 nostalgia train trips have not been officially announced yet in the summer 2001 bulletin... members of the museum are given first crack at tickets to scheduled events, but then non members can get tickets... once the trip is officially announced and non members can order tickets, you shouldn't have trouble getting a ticket... if you wait till right before the trip, you might be closed out...
this july 4th, there will also be the 25th anniversary of the transit museum and they will be having the 9th annual bus festival on that day by the transit museum...
Dan, if you love the old stuff you'll realy enjoy a ride on the D Types. My trip last Fall was great. Our operator got a clear track going out to Coney Island & let the old girls strut their stuff.
Mr t__:^)
I hear that and I get so damn envious. I have to ride a D-Triplex out to Coney Island one of these days. I have just got to be in town when such a trip takes place. Put a #4 on a Triplex, run it on the Seaa Beach line and walla!!!!!! It is 1949 all over again and I'm a kid.
Sending them out to the Rockaway flats is not a bad idea at all. About three miles of straight outdoor track. I wonder what speed they can reach out there.
Fred, I can SEE the big grin on your face ! The set of cars is in realy fine shape & mechanically they don't have to limp along, so the ride is very nice too.
Mr t__:^)
can you order a seat by mail if you live out of town ?? ............etc... who do you contact ???
Contact the museum Salaam. They would be happy to sell you one. I should be getting mine in the coming weeks, planning to be on the July 15 run. If my memory serves me correctly, last year I spoke with a lady named Luz (as in Spanish for "Lamp"). The tix were $20.00 each, give or take.
It was a fine trip. Eighty percent of the fun was watching the puzzled look on the faces of the people on the platform seeing our train rumbling past them.
This year, however, I will bring a bag of those foam earplugs. No offense, but not since the pre-GOH R-32s on the BMT Broadway line did I hear such a large amount of track noise amplified by the tunnels and due to the open windows.
do you suggest i should join the museum ?/ that would be fine i would be glad to do it also do they send you the information
as to the museum trains as well as when the D triplexes run ( they really looked pretty in the coney island tour ) !! WOW !!!
woooooopppppppeeeeeee!!! the older subway cars were a bit louder with the larger windows that opened up wide !!!
I remember how you could really FEEL the whole experence almost like being on a FLAT roller-coaster !!!!
You just about hit the nail on the head with that "flat roller coaster" description.
You don't have to join the Museum in order to get word of the events, but I am sure the Museum would appreciate your contribution.
Anyway, I was poking around the website of the MTA and came up with this addy http://www.mta.nyc.ny.us/museum/tours.htm that gives a listing of tours on offer with the Museum. As of this posting, it hasn't been updated. You may want to check daily, as it seems they are on the cusp of a new edition.
Also, if Dave P. spots something of the Museum's that would appear interesting to us, he posts it in UPCOMING EVENTS on this website. Dave also lists events not associated with the Museum, such as the March of Dimes Redbird trip last year.
They'll have it signed up as a 4 just for you.:-)
There was a trip on the Eastern Division to Canarsie in 1997, IIRC ...
--Mark
Does anybody have an informed idea about what portion of the projected 18 billion dollar cost of the new line might be satisfied by new fares collected? (I suppose that answer is that fares will not even pay operating costs, but I am curious if there are actual studies out there somewhere.)
The farebox does not (at least in North America) cover the operating cost of any mass transit system. So the quick answer is nothing!
Question - if you were to do a true cost/benefit analysis, and if you counted the savings from reduced congestion, would there be a positive return? After all, these sytems are there not to make money, but to allow the city to survive! After all, we don't expect the army or the fire department to make a profit.
"The farebox does not (at least in North America) cover the operating cost of any mass transit system. So the quick answer is
nothing! "
False statement in New York. The subway actually breaks even. The farebox covers operating expenses (but not capital funding). Some bus routes make money, but overall the buses lose money (lines like the Q79 lose a lot of money). Larry Littlefield's post is an excellent analysis, though he is much more pessimistic than I am regarding the subway's construction chances.
(The farebox covers operating expenses (but not capital funding). Some bus routes make money, but overall the buses lose money)
The subway was making money a couple of years ago, but has since fallen into the hole. I, for one, think that's a bad thing. I'd rather see the fare increased at the rate of inflation -- or the union contract -- than see the corner cutting and ledgerdemain we are starting to see. I'm in favor of jacking up the peak period fare and the weekly/monthly ticket right now.
That still doesn't get you the Second Avenue. Here's a sad thought. The MTA capital plan includes lots of what I call normal replacement. How can we borrow $10 billion, and reborrow another $10 billion, for a few years of normal replacement? Will we borrow another $20 billion in 2004?
Let say that during the good times the state government provided the MTA with cash for normal replacement during the good times. Then the $20 billion the MTA is already borrowing would have been more than enough for the LIRR to GCT, the Second Avenue Subway, and a couple of other real improvements as well. They've fleeced us, and now I'm afraid the bill will come due.
The subway was making money a couple of years ago, but has since fallen into the hole. I, for one, think that's a bad thing. I'd rather see the fare increased at the rate of inflation -- or the union contract -- than see the corner cutting and ledgerdemain we are starting to see. I'm in favor of jacking up the peak period fare and the weekly/monthly ticket right now.
Let say that during the good times the state government provided the MTA with cash for normal replacement during the good times. Then the $20 billion the MTA is already borrowing would have been more than enough for the LIRR to GCT, the Second Avenue Subway, and a couple of other real improvements as well.
Seems to me that there are two issues here. You can't look at the revenue side in isolation and ignore costs. It sounds as if NYCT is doing a fairly poor job controlling costs, what with the subway now having reverted to an operating deficit even as ridership has increased. Until NYCT management can get a better grip on costs, they shouldn't be complaining too loudly about the lack of adequate state funding.
My bet is that those "costs" are all those shiny new cars and signals. Are we suggesting that we should stop doing that? (this cost cutting solution was applied in the late 60's and early 70's in case all the war stories of years past have been missed) ...
(Seems to me that there are two issues here. You can't look at the revenue side in isolation and ignore costs. It sounds as if NYCT is doing a fairly poor job controlling costs, what with the subway now
having reverted to an operating deficit even as ridership has increased.)
They gave raises to the employees -- that's a cost. In March 1997, the average NYC transit employee earned four percent more than the average public transit employee in the U.S.; the average private sector employee in Downstate NY (excluding the highly paid fianance industry workers in NYC) earned 29 percent more. So transit workers aren't overpaid, although those 11 average sick days taken per year look bad.
More productivity? Metrocard will lead to fewer station agents instead of more booth clerks. CBTC could lead to OPTO, if the politics fly. The new cars will presumably require less maintenace than the old, as will the new signals. But these are big, long term changes. Plus the TA has been lucky -- more off peak riders, where there is room -- means you don't have to add service as fast as passengers.
These are all big, slow, long term things. No turning around on a dime. So when wages rise -- and not unreasonably -- costs rise.
The biggest cost is debt service. You now have debt service paid for with operating funds (7 percent of the operating budget), while state capital funding has been cut off and operating funding has increased to "save the fare." What's up with that?
The farebox does not (at least in North America) cover the operating cost of any mass transit system
False. The Seattle monorail definitely recoups its operating costs at the farebox. And I've heard rumors that the city actually makes money off it!
Too bad the city government wants to kill the monorail and install light rail.
>>> The Seattle monorail definitely recoups its operating costs at the farebox. <<<
Unfortunately the Seattle monorail is not a transit system. In Seattle you would have to look at all modes of public transportation to determine system profitability. Many transit systems can point to one portion of the system that is profitable, but not the overall system.
Tom
"Unfortunately the Seattle monorail is not a transit system. In Seattle you would have to look at all modes of public
transportation to determine system profitability. Many transit systems can point to one portion of the system that is profitable,
but not the overall system."
Excellent point, particularly with bus-dependent systems where, often a few routes make money and subsidize the many lines which run a deficit (look at Los Angeles, for example).
None. Because the line will never be built.
Good job, now you've given them something else to study about. Now it will take 15 years beyond eternity (up from the previous 5 years before eternity) for the line to be built.
(Does anybody have an informed idea about what portion of the projected 18 billion dollar cost of the new line might be satisfied by new fares collected?)
Subway fares will be used to build the LIRR to GCT, under a complex arrangement wherein old separate TA and LIRR debt is re-borrowed, and backed by the subway fare, some of which is now used for debt service even as other money subsidized operating expenses.
The Second Avenue line will not be built. If it was built, however, and areas served by it (and the over-croweded Lex line) were upzoned, the taxes paid by the new building occupants would pay for the line many times over.
Dont you think that Mayor Guilliani was the best hope for something like this? I dont really like the man but he has been the only mayor that can do something because he wants to. None of these other guys has even mentioned a new subway line. They really havent mentioned anything.
(Dont you think that Mayor Guilliani was the best hope for something like this? I dont really like the man but he has been the only mayor that can do something because he wants to.)
I know from experience -- aside from stadiums, Giuliani really didn't understand or care about infrastructure, education, etc. And he's such an egotist that the only things he accomplished are things he personally understood.
What is really necessary is a Giulaini-like guy who cares about infrastructure. And a Robert Moses-like guy who cares about transit working for him.
We absolutely need a Robert Moses-type of person to work on infrastructure to the exclusion of highways! Moses hated mass transit in any form and did whatever he could to destroy NY's subways and commuter rail systems (and nearly succeeded).
I always thought banks are lead by tellers :-)
Arti
Iwas just wondering what would i do with a lottery winnings of say thirty million dollars... i would get things like pickup trucks,cars a house etc but i would also give money to the museums to fix up and extend the lines,to buy cars and right of ways,and give the fire dept's the heat sensing system to find victims in smoke filled houses...and manny more things like this...what would you do with thirty million.....?
Well, first, $30m would be spread over 20 years, right? Then, what 20% gone to tax. So, what, $1.2m a year to spend? Me, I have debts, including paying off my house. 2 kids about to hit college. In fact, I'd like to go back to college too. Then there's a bunch of family I'd like to help.
But if the real question is how would we like to help public-oriented services and institutions provided we had that kind of money ...
I'd first focus on finding homes for abandoned kids in the juvenile custody systems. My wife & I have already talked over this fantasy. We'd take some in ourselves. Then, I dunno. Either find ways to underwrite other adoptions, or contribute to public or private services already in place. That could easily take up all the money.
Then there's homeless adults. Some are nuts and addicts who need mandatory institutionalizatioin and could not otherwise be helped, but plenty, plenty others could turn their lives around with an infusion of a few thousand bucks.
Sorry, but money for museums of any kind don't come anywhere close on my list. Money for buying rescue equipment? Yeah, I can see that.
If you won the lottery you shoud by yourself a train car like the R-32's
I'd buy a bar, have a few drinks, and figure out what I'd do as I went along.
E_DOG
I don't have your e-mail address.
You site isn't working and I'm trying to get a hold of the R-142 Subway Car Addition you made for the Bahn Train Simulator. Can you help me out.
Regards,
Trevor Logan
www.transitalk.com
tlogan@transitalk.com
I don't know what V3 is up to, but if you try http://transfer.to/rmmarrero/, you won't get it to work. The current alternate URL is:
http://rmmarrero.topcities.com.
I was pleased to ride the Newark City Subway before 8 a.m. today. I then took notes at Franklin Avenue to observe peak hour headway, waiting for #17 to return. Sixteen cars were in service: 17, 5, 9, 22, 28, 10, 26, 13, 20, 15, 4, 2, 19, 21, 12, 23. Departures were close to every 2 minutes, with the same car departing again 32 minutes later. Great work!
I recall riding double-ended cars on that route before the PCC's arrived, and that single-ended cars were used to Caldwell and West Orange, if my memory is correct. When the new service begins and the operator has to move to a different cab every 16 minutes, I wonder whether NJT will maintain the 2-minute headway so consistently. Headway maintenance may have been one reason for Brooklyn's use of single-ended streetcars on the routes with the most traffic (Flatbush Ave., etc.).
Please explain:
When the new service begins and the operator has to move to a different cab every 16 minutes, I wonder whether NJT will maintain the 2-minute headway so consistently
I don’t know the track layout of the Newark subway. I assume (from the post) that the PCC cars are single-ended, and the new cars will be double-ended. From one trip down to the bowels of Newark station, it appears that there is a loop so that cars don’t have to be turned on a turntable at the end of the run.
It looks like this could be a debate on operators moving to the other end of the car vs turning the car but I would very much like more information.
Thanks,
John.
Yes, the new cars are double-ended, vs. the single-ended PCC cars, and yes, there is a turning loop in Newark Penn. I don't know whether or not the turning loop will continue to be used with the new cars; I've heard that it will not be because of clearance issues, but that's simply hearsay and not backed by any hard evidence that I'm aware of.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Will the station remain on the side platforms or will they use an island platform in the current maintenance facility in the middle of Penn?
I belive (this is an educated guess) that they will not use the loop at Newark. Since brand new maintenance facilities have been built and connected (with a new stop eliminating the loop at the other end from Newark) there will no longer be a large maintenance shop at Newark.
Double ended cars, they could use the straight in center tracks and get rid of excessive ware on the wheels as they go around the loop. I wonder how they handled the ware on the PCC's since booth loops were left handed.
This just leaves the saftey question of pax crossing tracks to the center but they do it on HBLR so...
There are platforms with stairways by the center tracks as well, which were used during the time when multiple routes served the subway. All they'd have to do would be remove the maintenance equipment stored there, some minor repairs, and some major cleaning, and they could use those platforms instead or in addition.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
There are two loop tracks, one at each end of the line, though the one at the Franklin Av. end was installed for the single-ended PCC cars.
Here's a map.
The LRVs will NOT be terminating at Branch Brook Park (that's what it's called now), the question is whether there will be a loop at the new terminal: Grove St/Bloomfield.
I was lucky enough to get a brief trip through Newark Penn Station by NJT personnel (a very accomodating group) and here's what they told me.
- Penn station will indeed lose the maintenance to the new carbarn and the new cars will use all four tracks and crossovers to turnback and not the loops
- The Franklin loop is done for once the new cars come in - but there is a cross over at Branch Brook Park (formerly Franklin & Heller Parkway).
- As plans stand now every second car will turn back at Branch Brook Park with the others going the full way to the new terminus beside the new carbarn (already constructed) about 3/4 mile away.
They didn't say anything about the new headways but there are going to be fewer KS cars than PCCs (I can't recall exact numbers), each 90' instead of 47' so it's safe to say that at least the peak headways will be longer.
Any provision being made for the pie-in-the-sky plans of going to Paterson, Newark Airport, or Jersey City (connect to HBLR)
Take the SubTalk Live Survey. Poll closes at 9 PM tonight!
First, a proposed silver line to Dulles. The trains have a metal sign for the front reading WHITE which was the proposed Dulles line. (Read further for #2)
Tysons Trains A Step Closer
(Washington) -- The Metro board has decided on a plan to bring rapid bus service, and eventually a rail line, through Tysons Corner.
Board members Thursday agreed to study the environmental impact of a Silver Line that would bring passengers from the Ashburn area and the Dulles Toll Road to the West Falls Church Metro station.
The service would start with bus lines by 2003 and hopefully open to rail service by 2006.
A final impact statement is expected next month, and a public hearing would then be scheduled.
Still, board members are concerned about what it'll mean to add another 75,000 passengers to the existing Orange Line system.
Then, we have something on overcrowding and 8 car trains:
Metro Overcrowding: It'll Get Worse
(Washington - AP) - There is no relief in sight for commuters who pack themselves into crowded rail cars each day.
Metrorail use is growing faster than expected, according to a Metro study released Thursday. Staff members are examining when the system will reach maximum capacity and what to do about it.
The study, presented to the Metro board's planning and development committee, shows 700,000 passengers a day use 29 core stations downtown. Planners estimate passenger volume will grow 103% by 2025.
Metro General Manager Richard White warned board members that by 2010 the busy Orange and Blue lines will have to run eight-car trains, up from the four- to six-car trains used now. He expects the Red Line will follow soon after.
Metro board member Chris Zimmerman told White that many commuters would probably like to see eight-car trains now. White agreed that the bigger trains carrying up to 1,000 passengers should be phased in well before 2010. At the moment, however, Metro lacks the rail cars. But even that will not be enough.
"By 2015, we will need some new line capacity that doesn't exist yet," White said.
The study also looked at how nine of the busiest stations will hold up to increased passenger traffic on the escalators and platforms. During rush hour, Farragut West, which handles both Orange and Blue line traffic, is already seriously congested at its entrance escalators and mezzanine platform. Projections show Farragut West and Union Station will be the most seriously congested at all platforms, entrances and exits by 2025.
Staff said the capacity study includes estimates based on existing expansion projects, including a Silver Line that would bring about 75,000 passengers a day from the Dulles Toll Road corridor, through Tysons Corner to the West Falls Church station.
Staff looked at several routes, and recommended one that would loop passengers from Route 7 and Spring Hill Road to an area on Route 123 just east of the Beltway.
The service is expected to start with bus lines by 2003, after a special bus lane is built to help speed the buses through traffic. Metro hopes to begin rail service by 2006.
The board decided to drop a study to bring service through Reston Town Center, citing environmental concerns.
Zimmerman repeatedly questioned what a new Silver Line would do to existing Orange Line stations, which he said are already near capacity. A final environmental impact report is expected next month, and public hearings will be scheduled.
You, Ken and I discussed about the overcrowding situation, and for the short term (10-20 years), I still like my plan.
According to the article, station crowding is the biggest issue. What WMATA needs to begin planning on ordering cars with 4 wide doors per side and more bench seats. This way, 8 car trains can enter a station, move people in and out of the trains as quickly as possible and leave a station in a minimal amount of time. Do you know what the headways are on the Blue/Orange line during rush hour right now? It should be possible for them to run 2 minute headways. MARTA does it occasionally during the week.
In the long term (40+ years), a center express track may be needed. This would incredibly expensive to do, but nessasary. Maybe tunneling under the existing tunnels and putting one track, with a provision for another tunnel/track beside it is the answer.
It is heartening to see the 'new systems' of the seventies begin to confront their deliberate design deficencies. BART proudly denied it was a 'subway' and tried to market itself as an upscale suburban service with carpets, NO standee hand holds, and no overnight service. Of course, if that low ridership had continued, there would be no need for more cars or calls from riders for better service patterns.
Meanwhile at rush hour, BART and Metro are standee sardine packed despite their outrageous fare structures. To me this ridership is the ultimate vindication of IND so-called 'overbuilt' systems which as we all have read is jammed on the QB line(the one line essentially not built merely to recapture...)
WMATA and BART's success are great news. Mass transit really works, and works well, and hopefully transit funding will gain in political popularity.
I remember this.
The trains carry a sign reading WHITE for the front end rear of the train. I was surprised to read they want this to be the silver line. Clearly, this will use the pier at West Falls Church (I have a photo of it I need to scan).
The next cars they order need to have their passenger cabin redone in some way. Maybe 4 doors and fewer seats but no benches. Instead of two seats facing inward, make it three or maybe four but leave everything else the same.
In the meantime, WMATA should encourage operators to "break down" the cabs to allow for more room.
As for the station crowding, that is a mess. I will be at Union Station at the tail end of rush hour next week so I will note the crowding situation.
A solution for crowding at Metro Center would be to rebuild the heavily used escalators to go in the opposite direction so that the bottoms don't face each other. Then all the lazy Washingtonians would wind up on the ends of the platform, not the center. Remember, a Washingtonian will plant themselves wherever the escalator leaves them until the train comes. If they do move, they won't move much more than a car length.
>In the meantime, WMATA should encourage operators to "break down" the cabs to allow for more room.
How are they going to have OPTO and do that ?
The intermediate cabs are already broken down.
They need to run 8 cars trains, and they need to fix their damned OoO escalators and elevators.
A friend of mine who lives in Chicago was wondering the purpose of the blue light on the side of the train. The lights are in a vertical string of three, just under the unit number, as shown here. Look on the left side of that photo to see what I mean. I suggested they are connected to the end doors or the red ball.
What is the blue light for (as well as the other two lights?
Thanks, in advance.
I asked the same question a couple months ago. Let's see if I can remmeber what the answer is:
AMBER: The train has stopped and it's safe to open the doors.
RED: The doors are open
BLUE: A circuit breaker on the car has been tripped.
IIRC, I also remember seeing a lunar white light on each of the 3200-series cars. I have no clue what that indicates.
Any other Chicago SubTalkers who can confirm these lights and/or provide more info?
-- David
Chicago, IL
It's fairly obvious the 7 line has the weakest A/C. Of course the oily Steinway tubes don't help the situation either.
You're operating a 7 express train to Flushing and the train is partially crowded. You must have the cab door open, which blocks the front window but face it you need air. So you stop at Junction and a mystical girl looking nice in her sundress comes on and moves near the window. What should you do?
A: Close the cab door and sweat it out so she can look out the window
B: After Junction wrap it, taking the curve just before the flyover fast so the mystical girl falls into the cab (and on you)
C: Operate slow and tell the mystical girl she looks beautiful
D: Ignore
Clue:the correct answer bypasses Dekalb
What haircolor does she have?
Mystical black.
How about E? Get a life.
E. I know I am not getting anywhere with her and I don't have some wierd Asian fetish so I wouldn't think twice about it.
OR
F. I'm married, I shouldn't be doing things like that. (I'm not, but I'm not a TO either).
So has any transit worker ever met anybody while on duty? Or this just doesn't happen in NYC?
OMG–I don’t even know where to start with this one!
E: You haven’t noticed because you are either (a) a female train operator or (b) a gay male train operator
F: You have too much professionalism to pay attention.
Before I get flamed, I apologize in advance.
I hope that in any case F is the correct answer.
If an answer involves DeKalb and you started on the 7, you have many problems as a TO, and involvement with the girl who got on the train is the least of them!
The B train skips Dekalb. B is the correct answer.
Wrap it up and burn the slow orders!
Once upon a time when I was a fearless Army Warrant Office Aviator I always invited the woman to fly in the co pilots seat when I was solo. Would kick the crew chief back to his normanl position.
The ladies loved taking the controls.
I use Bigdaddy as that was our unit call sign in Viet Nam and 973 was the tail number of the phototype Otter the Army purchased.
It was Old Slow and somewhat reliable.
Burn the Slow Orders.
Curt
PS I see some one else using that phrase
I like that "burn the slow orders" phrase!
Speaking of burning, it's so, so hot here in Sea Cliff. I tell ya if you don't like hot weather don't move here. It's still around 80 out there, but meanwhile places on Long Island like Mineola, Bellmore, and Farmingdale are 65-70.
I really think most people are unaware just how much hotter it is here in the "hotbox" of Long Island.
I remember getting off the train LAST SUMMER from Sea Cliff to Jamaica and it felt much cooler in JAMAICA!!!
Quite the MYSTICAL puzzler... :>
If this is a romance novel or adolescent fantasy, then the correct answer is "invite her into the cab with you, who cares about regulations"
A.
BMTJeff
Item one hope the beakies or a supervisor don't find the cab door wide open..think we were allowed 4" IIRC. Item two if your luck runs anything like mine did over 90% of the time everytime some pretty chick was around some GUY had to plant his entire body over my meager 4" cab door opening and there went my view of the girl.
Oh well, that wasnt what they paid me for and maybe its lucky or my career might not have lasted as long! Nyuk Nyuk Nyuk. Might have spared me a few nasty comments...no gals could deliver them better than the Noo Yawk ones.
Well it's off to New York for a few days to spend some time with the folks. Aside from a night at The Shark (a bar catering to Buppies, middle class African-Americans)I will be spending some time riding my beloved Brooklyn Broadway El. It, along with Chicago's Douglas L, is one of my two favorite elevateds in the world. I don't plan on taking any pictures but I will stop at Viveros'(between Myrtle and Flushing Avenues on Broadway), that chicken place which sells live poultry. Fresh fowl anyone?
E_DOG
Thats my favorite too!! was riding it last weekend they were doing some track work and saw some slant L line trains running between Broadway and Eastern Parkway, looks like they are doing some Rehab work on some of the stations-particarly heading towards Manhattan, The S curve around Cypress Hills is cool also.Its an old Fashion EL in the 21 century sort of like riding the ELs of yesteryear.Hope it stays around for many years.
I do too. If they ever try to shut it down I'll probably chain myself to the tracks.
E_DOG
NYS&W wants to install a grade crossing in North Bergen to take some trucks off the street; N Bergen copped a NIMBY attitude. NYS&W insists they wouldn't block the street for more than a couple minutes a couple times a day, and not at rush hour. They threatened refuse to grant ROW to HBLR for extension if they don't get their crossing. Township officials stalked out of a meeting with DOT, NJT (HBLR), et al.
Jersey Journal story
Could you do us a favor and not forget to include antacids and barfbags in your posts when you include links to these kinds of stories? Oh, and post the NIMBYs address so I can write it on the barf bag after I fill it, and mail it to them.
WAL--LY, WAL--LY, WAL--LY, GO WALLY, Show those NIMBY IDIOTS. Foolish NIMBY mortgage slaves need to lighten up. They will have NO HBLR extension unless they play ball, Serves them right.
WAL--LY, WAL--LY, WAL--LY, GO WALLY, Show those NIMBY IDIOTS. Foolish NIMBY mortgage slaves need to lighten up. They will have NO HBLR extension unless they play ball, Serves them right.
I'm sure that there are many people in North Bergen who have no objection at all to the Susie Q grade crossing and who also would like the HBLR to serve their community. They will be the losers if this petty squabble isn't settled.
NIMBYs are most often a few loudmouths who appoint themselves overseers of the community.
How about
NIMBY =
Non
Informed
Megalomaniac
BullY
If you read the whole article carefully, it’s even worse.
NYS&W uses Location A as a transfer point to move paper from rail to trucks to deliver it to its customer’s warehouse.
NYS&W wants to be able to build a siding next to the warehouse, so it doesn’t have to truck the paper. Building the siding means building the grade crossing.
HBLR’s Phase III extension needs Location A as a Right of Way.
North Bergen says “no” to the grade crossing.
NYS&W says (quite reasonably IMHO) “then we need to continue to use Location A for the transfer”
I wasn’t at the meeting, so I don’t know how the various stages of this negotiation were phrased, but I can completely understand a business saying “I need to continue to serve my customer!” That’s how a business stays a business!
John.
Good post.
Can we give the politicians the benefit of the doubt by judging them too stupid to understand John's logic?
It's understandable that local polits don't want grade crossings. They are bad news. But it looks like these guys got so focused on "no grade crossings" that they refused to listen to why NYSW needs one.
First 2 of 10, to be run in two sets of five.
Trains Magazine News Wire story and photo.
The poll is closed and the following has been decided on.
Chats will start at 7:30 PM (ET) on Saturdays and will be held weekly. The weekly chats will start on a date to be announced at least 3 days prior. Chats will continue as long as there are people in the room. There will be NO chat on Saturday, May 5. Chats may be held either additional days or less often based on the popularity of the first few chats.
SubTalk Live is meant to enrich the SubTalk/BusTalk experience by having a live conversation in addition to the "delayed chat" on the message board. So that all may enjoy their chatting experience, the following policies will be in effect in the SubTalk Live chatroom at ALL times:
1. ANY public transit related topic can be discussed (bus, subway, or railroad).
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In short, use common sense.
Stay tuned for an announcement about the commencement of chats. This will be posted on SubTalk and BusTalk.
Also, those of you have used IRC clients please note, the ROOM HAS MOVED.
Connect to any server on the DALnet network (use irc.dal.net for a random server). and use room #subtalklive.
Web chat users need not mind, the settings have been changed for you.
Coming soon: Cookies to keep your nickname so you won't have to enter it every time. I just need to get myself a PERL cookie writing and reading script. :-)
Would you guys help me out? Out of curiosity, I'm taking a poll for the best subway line in NY. Please go to Train Buff Headquarters to vote. Thanks!
I see The Sea Beach has no votes/ Where are you Fred?
While walking back from lunch with a client today, we decided to walk on 4th Ave (Brooklyn) since 5th Ave is torn up around Union Street due to the installation of new water mains.
We passed Bathhouse #4 (f/k/a The Lyceum Baths) and noticed that there was a sign advertising coffee and soda and pastries. The building has been converted to a community theater / comedy club.
This is the building that has SEPTA PCC 2739 on the lot.
We went inside and were greeted by two guys who run the place. One was Eric Richmond. When he said his name, I asked him if he was the one who owns the car. He said yes. I mentioned that I thought he bought 5 PCC's. He said that it was seven and that 6 are still stored in Philly. Can't find space in Brooklyn for them.
Appartently he wants to use the PCC for seating when they have outdoor events. Has no plans to bring it inside the building.
It appears that some of the glass in the PCC has been replaced but it doesn't have any poles on the roof. Perhaps they've been removed to prevent vandalism. He is very much aware of #1001 up at Branford.
He has a website for the club (www.gowanus.com) but it has nothing about the PCC.
The building needs a lot of masonry work and it appears that Eric and Co. are trying to get this idea going on a shoe-string budget. I wish him a lot of luck. It's good to see an abandoned building spring back to life.
Please be advised that I am in no way connected with the building, club or website.
Hart Bus f/k/a 9306 WF
I saw the car a few years ago when he still had it in the building. The pole and roof shroud are taken off so it will be able to clear low bridges. We have to do the same thing when the ex-Shaker cars come down from Buffalo.
I saw the car a few years ago when he still had it in the building. The pole and roof shroud are taken off so it will be able to clear low bridges. We have to do the same thing when the ex-Shaker cars come down from Buffalo.
While on an uptown 5 train this afternoon, I heard a businessman tell one of his coworkers that the MTA should just hurry up and finish the Second Avenue subway. After all, he said, there's an entire complete tunnel between Houston Street and Ninety-sixth, and all it needs are lightbulbs and stairs!
Sigh... if only it was that easy.
No there isn't. There are small segments but it is NOT that extensive!
As I said, if only...
Looks like that would be the only proposal without NIMBYS.
Arti
Early last year, someone called W.B. posted lists of the original platform lengths of the IND stations.
Part 1: 8th Av Line
Part 2: Queens Blvd Line
Part 3: Concourse Line
Part 4: Fulton-Carnberry/Prospect Park
Part 5: Fulton St Line
Part 6: Crosstown Line
Part 7: 6th Av/Rutgers Line
Part 8: Stations opened 1960 and later
I have an addition to that. If you will note in Part 4, W.B. says "Note that the two elevated stations – Smith-9th Street and Fourth Avenue – are not part of this list because this writer could not ascertain the start and end chaining codes of said stations."
I have some pretty good estimates.
4th Avenue: start 683+85, end 690+90
The south end of the platform is right at the portal. A number writted on the column at the portal is 683+85. The north end of the platform is not far from the 691+00 sign on the wall.
Smith-9 Sts: B1 start 705+05, B1 end 712+40. B2 start 705+10, B2 end 712+45. Just note these are "guesstimates," based on the numbers written on the wall.
So, even the IND stations have been lengthened during their lifetimes?
- Lyle Goldman
I would assume that few, if any have been. Original IND stations were 660', to allow 11 60' pre war R1-9 MUs. Some (34th Street - 6th Avenue) appear to be over 700'!!
34th Street/6th Avenue Platform Lengths
B2/B4 (NB) platform: 745 feet (12 cars + 19 ft extra space)
B1/B3 (SB) platform: 685 feet (11 cars + 19½ feet extra space)
...and it opened up my eyes, I saw the sign...
I apologize for the Ace of Base-ism, but two days ago, I saw a G train of R32 cars at Queens Plaza. Guess what I saw: Y! That's right, one of the side route signs on one of the cars had a Y sign showing. And, as Eric B. said, it was in a white bullet centered on the sign. You know, the tesimony of two is stronger than the testimony of one.
Another glaring example of NYCT's short-sightedness in design exists in downtown Manhattan.
In connection with the complete renovation of the park area in front of the courthouses on Centre and Worth Streets, Transit renovated the old BMT entrance to the Chambers Street/Borough Hall station complex. The entrance was closed for several months while a new stairway and wall tiles were installed. The old BMT station downstairs is being renovated (at a snail's pace).
But, when the station was nearing completion, Transit missed a chance to hearken back to old New York by simply reinstalling the same bland 1930's IND stairway entrance gates that existed at the station before the renovation. In keeping with the renovation of City Hall Park, which is nearby, Transit should have designed an entrance that recalls, if not the old IRT kiosks, then something that looks more classic than what exists.
In the context of the other things MTA has to worry about, I'd say that's a glaring example of a neglected anthill.
I'm not criticizing your nostalgia or taste for transit architecture. Even if I completely agree with you, I'm just not sure this needs to be high in priority. If MTA takes care of functionality, safety, ADA access, and drops the ball on this, I'm not sure why I should be very upset. If they haven't taken care of those other items yet, I would definitely not want them spending time on it.
This station should have gotten an elevator. THAT would be an important consideration.
We're on the same page.
I was thinking about the wrong station.
This station already has an elevator. It just needs elevators down to the BMT platforms.
I think the current emphasis on historic preservation -- and the ridiculous price often paid for it -- is an example of my "oscilating stupidity" theory of politics. We went from tearing down Penn Station to paying $100 million to renovate the Tweed Courthouse. They should have torn it down, along with all of those tenements they renovated in the late 1980s.
Be thankful they didn't close the entrance altogether.
They can't close that entrance, because that entrance justified the closing of the Worth Street stop in 1962.
When the Brooklyn Bridge station platforms were being lengthened in the 1950's, a connection was built between Brooklyn Bridge and Chambers Street on the BMT. This enabled IRT riders to get off the Lex locals and expresses, walk down a few passageways and emerge in front of the courthouses on Centre Street, about 1/2 block from Worth Street. Before that connection was built, the northernmost exit from the BB stop was at least 2 blocks from Worth Street and perhaps more. By having that connection, Worth Street could be closed. Closing the entrance now would put riders who want to go north of Worth Street in a worse position than they were before 1962.
Okay, see, now you're attempting to assign concern for rider convenience to entrance/exit closings, as opposed to concern for fiscal and "safety" issues. Besides, I was speaking generally (and sardonically), not specifically. If only that "1950's" attitude were present when they closed, say, the southern portal to the IND CPW 72nd Street stop. It's twelve to thirteen blocks between that lone portal and entrances to the Columbus Circle/59th street station, the next stop downtown -- that's a loooooong distance between entrances, even for the IND.
Not only did the TA close the south entrance to 72nd (when did that happen, anyway?), they also closed the northernmost entrance to 59th on CPW within the past ten years. (Remnants of the staircases to the mezzanine are still apparent on the IND platforms, including a seemingly pointless wall that remains.)
You see this all over the IND. The design of the system called for less stops and longer distances in between them, but with more portals to each stop to enable similar street-access compared to the IRT and BMT models. Then fiscal and safety concerns led the MTA to close one or more entrances to almost all IND stations. Witness the crosstown line, and/or the Queens Blvd. line. Almost all stations, except ones with higher ridership like Steinway St. or express stops, have had their entrances cut-down to one. Or witness the Bronx Concourse line, where whole mezzanines have been blocked-off. Even Manhattan was not exempt, as we have already discussed with regard to the insane exit-closings between 72nd St. and Columbus Circle. Another example is the 50th Street E/C stop, right in the heart of the midtown business and theatre district, where multiple entrances would make the most sense. This certainly defeats the original design intent of the IND system.
They could install more IRT style kiosks throughout the system. They would make great shelters on rainy days and they would make the subway entrances a lot easier to find. They could also install BMT style lamps on the BMT station since they had a distinctive appearence. Hopefully the City will reproduce the old style tilework along the ex BMT 4th Ave. line in Brooklyn as I don't care for the style of tilework that they are using presently on that line's stations.
BMTJeff
No. What they should have done was install an elevator. This station has no mezzanine, and an island platform. There are no barriers once you're underground.
-Hank
Last night my wife and I caught an R-142, running on the downtown 6 line, at 86th Street, intending to ride to 51st Street.
The ride was a disaster. The car we sat in first smelled like - ahem -feces, so we switched cars. I thought the source might have been the homeless person sitting at one end of the car, so we switched. Unfortunately, the next car smelled even more like feces and there were no homeless people sitting in it. The A/C was not working well and it was very humid in the car. Moreover, ALL of the station light markers on the electronic strip maps were flashing simultaneously, until the maps simply went dark altogether. The LED station announcement sign continuously flashed "110th Street Next" no matter which station we were in. The electronic station announcements were completely silent.
And to top it all off, the smallest application of the brakes caused a horrible squealing noise.
What a hunk of junk. Give me the Redbirds any day of the week.
Of course. Noone would ever think of defacating a redbird. And the digital signs on them are always working. And they never screech.
Andrew
Good response. :-)
Maybe some Kawasaki manager had an affair with a subordinate at the Yonkers factory, and just happened to have a weird fetish for excrement (not that uncommon in Japanese culture, actually). The hapless R142 was simply caught in the "crossfire", so to speak.
-- David
Chicago, IL
The feces odor might have come from some disgruntled employee at the Yonkers plant. It seems from recent posts that employee abuse and/or mistreatment is commonplace and maybe a disgrunteld employee does his business in a finished car waiting to be delivered.
BMTJeff
Maybe some Kawasaki manager had an affair with a subordinate at the Yonkers factory, and just happened to have a weird fetish for excrement (not that uncommon in Japanese culture, actually).
Not uncommon at all.
That is sick. Just sick. It looked as if her insides were were coming out of her ass.
gross
As much as I like rotten.com, it would be most unwise to assume that all their pictures are genuine and unaltered. Let the viewer beware.
Gross.
Gross.
And probably faked.
a genuine r-142 in real action !!
Salaamallah, i like your attitude!!!
Yeah, but was that anus of hers ever covered by a suit?
This is total bullshit and you are a complete idiot. When one R-142 has a problem, you complain like its the end of the world.
Yet somehow every day, every hour a REPULSIVE RUSTBIRD has even worse problems that this, and you still consider them the best invention since sliced bread.
All I can say is you need a reality check.
Oh, and those insults are just my youth speaking to all you ageists.
Your insults aside, this is not "one problem" I have had with the R-142s. It seems like every time I ride one, there's a little glitch or something wrong with it.
Of course the Redbirds have their problems. But they're 40 years old, remember! You think the R-142's fancy electronic stuff is going to be working in 40 years? They're not even working properly now! The beauty of the Redbirds lies in their simplicity. They're a fun ride because they're simple.
Its YOU who needs the reality check. The R-142 has already been troublesome to transit and have had to be pulled from service once already. I predict that they're always going to be troublesome. Last night's ride showed me nothing to change my mind. You, on the other hand, probably thought that the R-46's were well-designed and well-built cars and loved the Grumman Flxibles buses too.
you seem to have a streak of bad luck with the R-142A every time i ride it, i never had a problem. however every other one is taken out of service for a problem the last one went out because of poor breaking. however. i find them fun to ride quick and the most of them i rode smelled like candy. the break squeaking is perpetual. it will never leave (no squeaking whatsoever on the Bom. r-142. wait till it comes back and you will see what i mean)because of its bogie structure. remember also.the problem you had with a stinky warm airconditioner is pretty common. all they have to do clean out the airducts because a fungus is what is making it stink. if its new stock to have started running, then there is possibly a wiring problem with the climate system itself. but always remember these new machines are far more sophisticated than redbirds. my opinion is that sophistication is one thing that the redbirds and R-142/142A's keeps them from being compared in the reliability subject. if r-142 wasn't so sophisticated they would probably be as reliable as the redbirds or better because of new structure and all. give em' time. don't knock em;
>>>It seems like every time I ride one, there's a little glitch or something wrong with it.<<<
Keyword: Little. Everytime I ride a bus there's something wrong with it or a little glitch. I'll take a horse and buggy anyday (note the sarcasm).
>>>Of course the Redbirds have their problems. But they're 40 years old, remember!<<<
Yheah, they are. That's why they're getting replaced by the R142! See, when something mechanical (and human on many occasions) gets old, something newer and usually better is brought in to replace it. R142s ARE better than Redbirds, and you will see that.
>>>You think the R-142's fancy electronic stuff is going to be working in 40 years?<<<
If it doesn't, then that shall be the fault of the TA, not the R142 car design.
>>>They're not even working properly now!<<<
So everything in history that has made life soooo much easier worked right the first time it was introduced. Damn these R142s for being performing the way any new technology would!
>>>The beauty of the Redbirds lies in their simplicity.<<<
An Abacus is quite simple as well. Just like the Redbirds. Why don't you box up your complex PC, hop on one of your beloved Redbirds, and trade in the PC for a nice, simple Abacus!
>>>They're a fun ride because they're simple.<<<
And you'll have tons of fun with your Abacus! Although I see no corrolation between simpleness and the fun you can have as a result there of.
>>>The R-142 has already been troublesome to transit and have had to be pulled from service once already. I predict that they're always going to be troublesome.<<<
Based on minor problems as cqueaky breaks and mssed up stop announcments and LED signs? THAT will keep people those new fangled cars from going anywhere (note more sarcasm)!
>>>You, on the other hand, probably thought that the R-46's were well-designed and well-built cars and loved the Grumman Flxibles buses too.<<<
R46 cars had cracked trucks. Grumman-Flxible buses had cracked frames and LITERALLY hundreds of more problems. You listed a scant three for the R142. Two of which were most likely due to human error. You don't seem to be able to distinguish a minor problem from a potentially dangerous one.
You think the R-142's fancy electronic stuff is going to be working in 40 years?
Yes. By your logic, trains should still be pulled by steam locomotives, because that keeps it simple.
They're a fun ride because they're simple.
They're an extremely dull, annoying ride because they're simple.
You, on the other hand, probably thought that the R-46's were well-designed and well-built cars and loved the Grumman Flxibles buses too.
I don't remember the Grumman Flxibles.
And except for their original (faulty construction) trucks, the R-46s ARE well-designed and well-built. They shouldn't have removed the high tech stuff in the GOH but improved it.
There are enough R142's around to wipe out the R26's and some R28's TODAY, but not one Redbird has been retired because even the TA has little confidence in their replacements.
The reason the Redbirds are still around is because they want to increase service before scrapping cars.
so is that why the Bom r-142's are out of service? because it makes no sense why they aren't in. i just heard that the problem is fixed? i also seen a set 7211-15 (kawasaki) matched with 6335-40 (bombardier)in unionport. whats going on? can you supply with answers?
geeeezzz!! the r-142s are breakin down allready !!
And the Redbirds are breaking down STILL.
Perhaps we should just give up. It's like battling brainless zombies. They never die, and they always say the most unintelligent and buffonish things.
Besmirched Be!!
Yet in person, (they) make quite grand conversationalists!
south ferry !! as you can see the 2 before you etc... subtalkers / posters cant handle the truth !! they know the {-The-142s-are-scrap-ready-made!!!}
they cant deal with the FACT the redbirds & other r-38s & older both was built to last & are better !!! LOL !!!
give then hell south ferry !! keep up the good work !!
So what. Fools can make great conversation. It doesn't mean that anything they say is truthful or useful.
If the TA had as little faith as you wish they did, they would cancel the R142 AND R143 order, convert everything to 1930 standards, throw out all of the PCs and replace them with the venerable typewriter and abacus and call it a day. But, unlike some of the Rustbird fanatics, they do think with their heads instead of their rear ends. I guess I must say this again to the hard of hearing....
HELLO MORONS!!!!!!!! THERE ARE 1,425 REDBIRDS IN SERVICE!!!!!!!!!!!! 1,425! 1,425! 1,425! 1,425! 1,425! THEY WON'T BE GONE UNTIL THE SUMMER OF 2002!!!!!!!! THEY'RE PAST THEIR RETIREMENT AGE!!!!!! YOU'VE HAD 40 YEARS TO ENJOY THESE THINGS!!!!!!!!!! DINOSAURS DIED AROUND 65 MILLION YEARS AGO, YET YOU AND YOUR COVETED RUSTBIRDS SOMEHOW MANGED TO SURVIVE THE COMET!!!!!!!! IF YOU ALL HATE R142S THAT MUCH FOR THEIR TECHNOLOGY, GO LIVE IN AN AMISH PARADISE!!!!!!!!!! GET OUT OF NYC!!!!!!!!!!
There, that feels better. Oh, and if anyone responds to this with a nasty flame or insult, that means you were probably offended as you felt I was talking to you. This is just an FYI post, if you're offended, it's most likely because you fit the bill.
Hi. That might not be true as far as not one redbird being retired. I was at 207 yard about five weeks ago walking through the main shop (great on the weekends when there isn't a soul around, except for some cats) and came across 9486-87 on 13 tk. They were up on jacks and were pretty much stripped of everything. Doors, bars, seats, side signs, master controllers, brake valves, MDC's, light fixtues, sash panels and just about everything else. This was no regular shop job. The seats, light fixtues, door and sash panels were stacked on pallets and were strapped up, as if for storage. One car inspector wrote in chalk, "N.J. aquarium" on the low band of the car beneath the thresholds. If anyone knows where 9486-87 are, please pass it on.
Anyway, I haven't ridden on a R142 yet but I am looking forward to it. One day, most of the bugs will be gone on them but they will need time just like every other piece of equipment. CED and T/O's will have to learn and get to know what they are capable of. I will miss the redbirds also but probably not as much as others. I had a lot of fun times on them. And rotten times too, like sweating to death in the cabs or...........how many can relate to this..........when you don't think you're going to stop at the car marker and your 10 car train suddenly turns into Fred Flintstone's car. Ha Ha!!! No foot brake! I guess comes down to taking the good with the bad. Enjoy.
With all the bells and whistles on the R-142s compared to their predacessors, the MTA is being smart keeping the Redbirds around for a while, based on the disastarous experience 25 years ago with the R-44/R-46 series.
When the R-26/28s start vanishing, then you'll know the MTA brass thinks enough of the bugs have been worked out of the new cars t hat its safe to start retiring the old ones. And if the R-26/28s make it to the 100th anniversary celebration of the IRT in 2004, then you can safely say the R-142s really are lemons.
When 2004 rolls around the R38, R40, R42, and a smattering of R32s are supposed to be heading out the door.
The 10 R-32GEs whose air conditioning cannot be repaired.
Doubt the changeover on the R-38/40/42s will come that fast. They still have to work the R-143s and their new technology into the system before the others are built and arrive.
More likely the current cars will go bye-bye between 2005-2007 at the earliest (and for the sake of the MTA execs, the R-26/28s better be off-premisis by January of next year, or they -- or more precisely, the R-142 glitches -- are going to be an election issue in the 2002 governor's race).
Train Dude was kind enough to mail some scans of the R143 training manual's drawings to me a little while ago. It looks like the EMD electronics package from the SD80MAC's and SD90MAC's has come to the subway (I'm sure the 142's are similar but remember, you're talking to a guy that can't imagine running a train without wrenches) ... I'm still looking them over and am amused by the sheer amount of electronics in them ... here's hoping that whatever lessons were learned from the 142's find their way to the 143's ...
Since the R-142As which have been manufactured by Kawasaki using workers who are badly treated it might be safe to say that many of those cars could wind up being lemons. If any "Redbird" is still in service by October 27, 2004 you know that the R-142, 142As are lemons.
BMTJeff
so much for the " repulsive rustbirds "....LOL ..!!
the 142s are god allmighty himself !! the ultimate religion of some who post here !!??......!
I don't have religion nor do I belive in any god.
question.... are you an atheist ?? ...........just curious if you dont mind ..........
Hmm, since you didn't mention it, I will assume it got you to your destination safely and on time?
Yes, but the Redbirds usually do too. In fact, in all the years since the refit, I have never encountered any problem of any kind on a Redbird. Not with lighting, AC, nothing.
It's obvious that when you're on a Redbird you're too busy wiping your own drool to notice how the air conditioner always sucks, how the WF cars have the lights that flash off at gaps, how the train screeches and creaks more than anything else and how rusty and crappy it is.
Yet on an R-142 you absolutely MUST find a problem with it.
Anyway, I don't see how you can complain about a problem with the automated annoucements and digital displays on the R-142. Why don't you complain about the fact that automated announcements NEVER work on the Repulsive Rustbirds (they're not there!) or what about the fact that the PA system on the repulsive blood-red snakes often works like crap so one can't hear the manual announcements.
Everything on the R-142 that exists on a Redbird in primitive form worked on that ride you took. Why don't you complain that every little thing that might possibly go wrong on an R-142 doesn't even exist on a Rustbird! The cars motors, brakes, lights and doors all worked. And all of those things are more advanced than on a redbitch and they still worked.
As for pulling R-142s out for brake problems, the Redbitches have crappy brakes every day, yet they don't bother to pull them out. The R-142 gets the respect it needs to fix problems.
I will not be able to contain my jubilation on the day the last Rustbird hits the cold waters of the Atlantic Ocean.
"the air conditioner always sucks"
AGREED!!! -Nick
Last week I rode an R142(A?) on the 6 from Brooklyn Bridge to 33 St and everything functioned flawlessly. The announcements were made correctly, at the right time, the maps were perfect, the ride smooth and quiet, the car clean, bright, and air conditioned. Even the braking was smooth, but that's really more of how each T/O applies the brakes than the cars. In NYC, T/O's seem to always have a very hard brake application at the end (complete with squealing brakes and flailing standees in the cars) to get to the complete stop, on whatever equipment they're operating.
Last weekend I rode another R142(A?) on the 6 from Brooklyn Bridge to Grand Central, during a G.O. when all uptown trains went express. The automated announcements and maps were set to show that only express stops would be made, and everything worked as expected. The conductor also made announcements about the detour, and she was heard very clearly on the train's speakers. Not that this helped most riders, who completely ignored all sources of information and went into panic mode when the train skipped their stations. The train felt as fast as the Redbirds going up the express track, but much quieter.
Now all we have to do is get automated train arrival displays on every station platform...
You were on R142As. The R142 is on the 2, The R142A is on the 6.
see????........ this poster makes sense!! ..........stole my thunder !!.........thank you sir !!!
"And to top it all off, the smallest application of the brakes caused a horrible squealing noise."
This is an interesting observation. The brake application on the R-142 in microprocesor controlled. Improper rates can be a programming problem. This leads me to three questions. How does it happen that you and your wife were allowed into the cab with the train operator? If you were not in the cab with the train operator, how do you know when he/she took a small brake application or a full service brake application? What do you consider the smallest brake application? 10 PSI? 20 PSI, 30 PSI?
Perhaps the operator has had little or no experience operating the R-142s in service. Perhaps the operator was tired or inattentive. It seems that you, like many other buffs, have taken your less than full knowledge of the equipment, made some possibly incorrect assumptions and reached some questionable conclusions. I guess I'm guilty of the same thing at times. Until I re-read your post and saw that you were married, I incorrectly assumed that you were a kid.
Until I re-read your post and saw that you were married, I incorrectly assumed that you were a kid.
Because you are a victim in believing in the same stereotypes that kept women in the house doing her owner's husband's* bidding and black men working in the most menial of jobs because people believed they could do nothing better.
*In some languages, the word for husband also means owner.
Piglet, "I am a victim in......."? I don't understand what you are trying to say. If you are suggesting that my wife is subservient to me, you are, once again WRONG. My wife has been her own woman for most of our 33 years together. It seems like everytime someone mentions something related to immature behavior, you recact like they stomped on your school tie. How about this - if someone is referring to you, they'll adress you! You have not been assigned to be the defender of the young or those exhibiting childlike behavior.
I can be the defender of anything I want to be, and I will fight against these stupid stereotypes as long as they exist. I don't have to stop doing something just because a BIGOT like you wants me to.
Ooooh piglet! How do you get a biggot because I said someone made a childlike statement? I think you are getting a bit too emotional, piggy.
like bart said on the simpsons ( dont have a cow man ) ....lol
Not a cow, salaam. I just feel that there is too much mis-information being passed off here as fact. The original poster of this thread made a statement which was likely untrue and, in any event, unsupportable. I simply wanted to challange this person to explain his post. For the rest of "US", we have our opinions about the R-142s and for the mostpart they have been expressed that way - as opinions. Let's at least call our facts, facts and our opinions as such.
Pot, kettle, black, 'nuff said.
There's a number of other folks here who are getting mighty tired of these childish tirades as well - I'm just another of them. Such insistence on age seems to suggest an age bigotry of your own, might want to step back for a second and check yourself.
But go ahead and lash out, my shoulders are broad - at least in this shirt.
The point is I don't tell somebody that they're old and out of touch because of their age. I never talk about somebody's age. I don't care.
That's why I hate people who continue to use ARCHAIC stereotypes about age.
Rather than using proverbs to speak derisively of me, why don't you tell me how the fuck I am acting as an age bigot? Were all of those people advocating civil rights bigots? Well in your world they would be, and we would be all the worse for it.
I don't care if you're sick of my tirades. I don't need to know what you think. I will continue to fight for that which is right, regardless of how socially acceptable it is or not.
To me, age isn't an issue - I don't care how old or young anyone is as long as they behave reasonably mature ... but you have made highly derisive comments towards people who expressed a like of the redbirds specifically (again, an issue I'm ambivalent about personally) but in doing so, you made comments about "old," comparing people and the redbirds that didn't ride well with a few folks ... I'm a bit too busy to go back and look but I've received some comments about it from others in personal email that I won't divulge.
I said my piece though, so I'm done. Hopefully if it's important enough to anyone else to be more specific, hopefully they will. If not, then I'm done. But the main thing is we can all disagree without bordering on the abusive and that's what bothered a lot of folks in a few of your responses including me.
I really enjoy many of your observations ... it's when it turns abusive that it's time for a time out. No offense intended here. We have a lot of people with differing viewpoints but we're all in the same club here, I hope ...
but you have made highly derisive comments towards people who expressed a like of the redbirds specifically (again, an issue I'm ambivalent about personally) but in doing so, you made comments about "old," comparing people and the redbirds that didn't ride well with a few folks
I never compared trains with people, nor did I say that old people were stupid for liking Redbirds. I did say that people were stupid for using the arguments they did to put down the R-142s.
I'm a bit too busy to go back and look but I've received some comments about it from others in personal email that I won't divulge.
Why would you receive e-mails from other people that talk about me? Especially in a thread you weren't participating in?
As for my abusiveness. Some people deserve it but can't take it. I deserve it too on frequent occassion. Like now.
Well, not going to go into other people's comments in private but the general gyst was a general recent lack of civility in some quarters here and a bunch of unnecessary tangling among several folks here. I'll leave it at an observation - that many of the regulars have been invisible here lately.
I love this place a LOT, and there's a lot of people here I enjoy coming here to visit among daily. YOU are one of them. Because I admire many of your own comments, I just wanted to toss out the thought to you since others apparently didn't want to. If I didn't care, I could have said nothing as well.
Subtalk is what we all make of it as a whole. Just wanted to say my little ditty from that standpoint. I was young once too and I know from personal experience the kind of things that bother you - they bothered me at the time. Eventually though, we all learn to just ignore the stupid, killfile them and move on. Sometimes we all open mouth, insert foot. Just part of living. :)
Yo, piglet, take a deep breath and relax. If the shoe doesn't fit - do not wear it. No one was critical of you. If you are going to go into a tirade everytime someone uses an age related stereotype, you're in for a very miserable time in life. It seems that you as well as another younger subtalker continue to act like fights in search of an issue to fight about. Perhaps you should pick your fights a bit more selectively. As for my original post on the subject - I still think that the points raised by the original poster were very childlike. I stand by that belief.
As for my original post on the subject - I still think that the points raised by the original poster were very childlike. I stand by that belief.
I agree with you there. I've become so accustomed of accusing everybody of ageism that I pick the wrong fights.
I'm sorry.
Peace
Did you read my post about inshot and the 142As?
It has been my observation that the friction brakes on these
cars do, in fact, squeal. I can hear that squeal on some cars
at moderate speeds and moderate to heavy brake applications (where
the strength of application is determined subjectively by me based
on the force I feel as a result of the non-inertial reference frame
created by deceleration). The brakes on almost all of these cars
squeal and grunt on the low-speed stop. I don't know if these
are symptoms of a mechanical problem or are normal sounds for these
new brake packages.
I've only ridden them on the #2 line. It's a different manufacturer over there but I have not felt or heard anything unusual related to braking. I've ridden in the cab several times and always found them to be smooth and quiet. I have not yet ridden the R-142s on the #6 line but on the rare occasions that I've seen them in service, I've never notices any brake noise.
Of course, we all know that there have been some braking problems with the R-142s so I don't discount your observations. However, the point I was trying to make was that the original poster could not know if the T/O was taking a mini-brake of a full service brake since he was not in the cab.
Jeff, to give you a difinitive answer to your question, there is no inshot on the R-142s. I rode one on the 7th Ave line today - with the t/o from Borough Hall to Penn Station. This is what I found. Contrary to the pronouncements from the redbird-loonies, everything worked as it should including the time displayed in the car. I did hear the screaching that you referred to. Since the duplex gauge shows brake cylinder pressure, it was easy to see what was happening. It seems that the dynamic is 100% braking to about 5 MPH as in other car classes. However, the dynamic does not fade and there is no blending. At about 5 MPH - in full service, the dynamic drops off instantaneously and the brake cylinder air jumps to 15 PSI. That't why you hear the screach - no blending.
BTW: I did not feel the jerking of the brakes that an earlier poster complained about despite numerous sharp curves and many timers.
I've never gotten over to the west side for the Bombardier cars.
In addition to the low-speed screech, the Kawasakis sometimes
squeal at moderate speeds, suggesting that the friction brakes
are coming on. I haven't been up front when this has happened
so I don't have a lot of additional info. AFAIK, the friction
brakes should not apply under these circumstances unless both
the regenerative and dynamic brakes fail.
I generally like the handling of these cars much better than
any of the current SMEE equipment. The AC traction package offers
very smooth and strong acceleration which doesn't start to fade
until much higher speeds. The brakes are sharp and have a little
bit of low-speed grab, reminiscent of old-school SMEE. Most
T/O on the job today have been ruined by the castrated brakes
of the last 10 years and have developed bad habits such as stopping
with a heavy final brake application. The 142s aren't as mushy
and when these bad habits are translated to the new equipment, the
result is herky-jerky operation.
the Bombardiers brakes don't squeal or screeech at all. one was running last night don't know if it is today though. but i'm gonna go find out if it is. what does SMEE mean? also they break a much smoother than the Kawasaki's.
SMEE = Straight-Air Multiple Electric Emergency.
Technically, SMEE brakes were only used on contracts R-10 through R-36 although SMEE has since become the common identification for all of the brake systems that controlled braking via a Straight Air Pipe. R-38 and up were actually referred to as RT-2 Brake System and the R-44 was originally called RT-5 system.
AC traction package offers very smooth and strong acceleration which doesn't start to fade until much higher speeds.
Having ridden quite a few of the Kawasaki R-142As a week and a half ago, I have to agree. I was very impressed with the cars' acceleration, handling and braking. I spent an entire day videotaping the R-142As mingling with the Redbirds and don't have a single complaint about the new cars. I hope their acceleration rates aren't reduced.
The fastest accelerating subway cars I have ever been on are the new M-4s on the market/Frankford El in Philadelphia. While Washington, D.C. and San Francisco's cars may have higher top speeds, I don't think their acceleration rates top the M-4s.
--Mark
Mark:
I'm glad someone else besides me finds favor with the M-4's down here in Philly. After the bugs were worked out, they turned out to be pretty good subway cars. The announcements are clear, also.
Chuck Greene
i've heard so and i've been dying to ride them. their trucks are sort of interesting in design, thats if you look at the wheels. never saw something like that.
You will love the ride. The announcements are kind of wordy and regular riders are getting tired of them. "Doors opening, Frankford Train, all stops, doors are closing. Next station 56th st, for Route "G", etc., etc. Nice woman's voice, though.
When you ride, get the "railfan" seat up front. Actually, the first three rows are good for looking out.
Chuck Greene
You're right about the announcements.
I decided to stand at the "traditional" railfan window while taking the video. It is tinted a little bit and it cut down on sun glare.
--Mark
They run quite well. And like I said, very fast acceleration.
But they won't win any beauty awards anytime soon :)
--Mark
Are you sure about that? The M-3 Almond Joys were much faster and accelerated better than the M-4's.
It's been a long time snce I watched my M-3 videotape which I just got back, I might add, after a 3 year "loan". So I'll have to watch it again and compare.
--Mark
Yesterday and again today, I was in Penn Station when the Acela arrived (coincidence). Both times, as it came to a stop, the brakes screeched. Perhaps AMTRAK needs to replace it with some redbirds.
Oooooh, redbirds with pans! And some people complain about
an R17 with a trolley pole! If ever the pans got caught in the
catenary (as happens on the CDOT portion sometimes) they'd probably
rip the roof off like a cheap can.
Actually, there are some interesting parallels between the Acela
trainsets and the R142 orders, but as the story is still playing
out, it is hard to predict how either will turn out in the long run.
When were you at Penn?
Both the R142 and R142A were made by Bombardier...
The Eurostar and Thalys TGV style trains also squeal very loudly when they come to a stop. No one complains about it over there, even if they hurt your ears if you're in a bad spot.
But I wouldn't mind operating a redbird through the Channel Tunnel (riding it would be a whole different ball of wax).
They are the tried and true electro/mechanical answer to many vexing engineering problems with electric powered trains in the urban environment. They've eliminated the smoking (faulty) journals and dynamic braking got rid of the sparks (from braking) that plagued riders and workers from the 1890's to the mid seventies (remember the R1-R9's? many of you do). The last major car replacements were SMEE's replacing SMEE's, we should improve THAT technology instead of promoting these soda cans with washing machine-like traction motors. When the 142/143's take off they remind me of a laundrymat's machines going from the wash to spin cycle, they should cut these machines up and sell them to major sports franchises and use the parts as washing machine vats. GET RID OF THEM AND BRING BACK THE TRIED AND TRUE!!! There's a 55 year track record (no pun intended) that says we should.
This, I would have to say, is a very uninformed opinion based
on fear, uncertainty and doubt. There are valid engineering
concerns with the 142 design, mostly in the reliance on semi-
propietary computer control networks and their failure modes, but
the A/C traction package is not one of those concerns. I'm
sorry that washing machines and other household appliances
frighten you. I admit, induction motors are the new kids on
the block. They've only been around for about 100 years.
Aren't the motors on the R-142s supposed to be less trouble prone in the long run?
BMTJeff
Umm, yes! No brushes, no commutator, no flashovers. Better
hp/lb rating too.
Could they put the new type of motors on the older cars such as the R-68s, R-62s or even the R-44s and the R-46s?
BMTJeff
AC propulsion from DC input requires at minimum choppers and such. Proper control of these motors though would require a LOT of equipment and probably computer/microprocessor control of frequency, waveshape and more. Mounting the motors is the easy part. Providing AC and control for them (a propulsion package) would invite the plaguing question of "where would you put it?" Not to mention the need for a complete rebuild of the cabs and a whole lot more. I really don't see it being practical - it'd cost as much if not more than a new car.
Plus the fact that an inverter has to be installed as well, and inverters are very heavy. Like I've said before, A.C. traction motors are perfect for commuter rail, Amtrak, or ant line that is already powered by A.C., but not for 600VDC systems.
Well actually, they're a wonderful idea from a standpoint of losing those silly carbon brushes if for no other reason. Tearing down traction motors is a royal pain in the butt and it has to be done often with DC motors. And Inverters have come a long way ... granted, a retrofit is probably not at all practical given the extensive amount of work that would take ... but for new car orders, it reduces the amount of power required and really enhances the reliability over time. Far fewer things need to be taken apart routinely ... Don't get me wrong - I love the old time stuff and it's pretty simple if you have the "manpower" to coddle it as required and the spare parts.
You pay up front for savings down the road and there's nothing wrong with that concept. The number of folks that are doing mechanical work as their trade is diminishing. Everyone wants to be an exec these days. :)
AC motors are a great idea. If only the TA had made the system run on AC power to begin with...
Actually, for it to work well, they'd have to do a convert to DC anyway ... I've had personal experience with AC traction on SD80-MACs and the way it goes, the prime mover is still DC, and the motors run on variable voltage and variable frequency. It allows for maximum torque at all rotational speeds by varying both. So the TA is actually sitting pretty. It's much more of a challenge with AC supplied catenary where you have to "play the ball where it lands" ...
AC traction has nothing to do with what type of power distribution
is used. In fact, where the power is AC, it has to be stepped
down and rectified anyway.
Yes, inverters (or more properly, 3-phase drive systems) can be
big, but so are the many contactors needed for a DC traction system.
The latter, such as is used on "SMEE" cars in NYCT, has a gazillion
electromechanical things that have to be inspected on a very frequent
basis, filed clean, spring tensions adjusted, etc. The good news
is you can do all this with a minimum of electronic gadgetry, the
bad news is you still have to do it.
Modern 3-phase AC traction packages have almost no moving parts
(just the overload circuit breaker) and there is nothing to adjust.
The systems are basically self-diagnosing and if one of the solid
state modules goes, you just swap it out. Now, admittedly, the
defective part is a black box that you have to send out somewhere
to get fixed, but unless those boxes are designed poorly, they
don't fail too often.
Yes. They have had prototype AC traction systems on the existing
cars for several years.
And WMATA had all the original Rohr cars converted from DC cam control to microprocessor AC motors. They were happy with the job and the cars , which date from 1976-78 have a new lease on life.
Which cars did the test the prototypre AC traction motors on?
BMTJeff
Lighten up a little, will ya?? I'm a GREAT fan of Nikola Tesla. I knew ten years ago that the AC's were easier to maintain (less moving parts etc). I just think that there's more to the SMEE's and we should stick with them. Non linear induction is the utimate (maglev) that's where we should be looking for the next quantum leap.
So if you knew ten years ago that the ACs are better in every way, why do you continue to say the SMEEs deserve a chance?
Clinging to the past is pointless, you're going to grow old, we all are, even if you try to arrest development and try to keep things as they were in your youth, it won't arrest your aging.
And if always wait for the next technology, we will die waiting, even if we live as long as a redwood.
Whoa, slow up. AC is the propulsion - SMEE is the brakes. They are not linked at the hip. There are 8 R-38s with RT-2 brakes and AC propulsion (just for 1 example).
Well, he was talking about the propulsion of the old cars, but still called them SMEE.
Maybe we can call the R-142 Captain Hook.
You're right, but the four dc motors per truck cars were always associated with the SMEE braking system. I used the descriptive, loosely, to ID the post WWII types, starting with the R-10. That's the technology that I was refering to. Sorry.
Dunno about you, but I'm waiting for the HOVERtrain and I ain't coming to the city until I get to ride one. :)
There was an even longer track record for the equipment that you say cause problems. You think that we've already reached the zenith of technological advancement and should stop? Well, if humanity stops developing then it has no reason to exist. Maybe you should go kill yourself, you'd do the world a favor.
Nice guy you are, plus a great sense of humor. Do me a favor, next time you see a beloved 142 whirling down the track, go down on the roadbed turn around bend over and kiss your %%%@%ng ass goodbye!
Hi there,
I have a question about the R1-9s, and I know you worked with them during your tenure at NYC transit, so if I may:
I regards to operating the train as a Motorman, are they very different from the later R-series equipment? I looked in the cab at the R-4 that they have at the Transit Museum and the controls looked the same, but I recall some posts here on the board alluding to the fact that they're different. Could you please elaborate a little on this?
Thanks very much,
Marco
Well, been 30 years, so I hope folks will correct me if alzheimers has set in. (grin) ... they had GE controllers and the brakes were AMUE type as opposed to the later SMEE types on most of the newer cars (R10 and up) ... you may have noted a round box on top of the controller where there was a hole that takes a "plug" (electric brake plug) that looks about the size of a boiler cartridge fuse.
They didn't have dynamic braking in the sense of later cars, thus you could wrap the controller, get up to speed and coast - something you couldn't do on later cars since the dynamic braking would kick in. When you went to stop them, it was real braking all the way down to a stop though the control stands did pretty much LOOK like its later cousins, the "ride" was quite different.
Hope that's enough ... :)
Not to take the spotlight from Selkirk but I'll volunteer. The controls were for all practical purposes the same right up thru the R42, except for diference in controller handles, substitution of circuit breakers for fuses in R26 and up; a few differences in trainline switches (on the wall to the motorman's left). The brake valves didn't look much different except on R38 and up they were enclosed in a console; the big difference was even if it looked the same on first sight the R1-9 Brake valves and braking system.The R1-9 had the old style ME23 brake valve and automatic air brake, no dynamic but had electro-pneumatic supplement to the automatic air which basically electrically set brakes at the same time in each car instead of waiting for brake pipe air to exhaust thru the train. Likewise you'd go from service to lap to set air, then again when you wanted more, go to electric holding and finally release when you stopped.
The R10-42 had ME42 or ME43 (think the 38-42 had ME43) brake valves which were straight air service, and the brake pipe was only for emergency features, they also had electro=pneumatic brake control but added the dynamic feature in which motor braking currents were controlled by straight air pressure; these were self lapping valves in which you'd set your brake valve to the desired application and leave it or increase or decrease.
Automatic air: brakes are applied by a reduction in brake pipe pressure; total loss causes emergency.
Straight air: brakes are applied by air pressure in straight air pipe [also used on locomotives, called "independent brake" with trainbrake being automatic] Straight air was the original type of air brake but if a train broke in two it would be completely ineffective so was replaced by the automatic system so a break in two caused emergency application. The R10-42 have both systems, straight air for service brake and automatic for emergency only.
Well that does it, Ed ... I'm going to have to start taking ginko viagra so I can remember what the F I was thinking. :)
I just remember the brake stand as "AMUE" and to always be mindful of that because if I ever worked SMEE, I'd be in TROUBLE. But yep, you've got it right ... I remember when I did a couple of runs on 32's that it was very hard getting used to the idea of pulling the handle and just leaving it there. There was a good bit of futzing you had to do on the old field tanks that made it feel like you were earning your check. Heh.
Thank you gentlemen!
I thought that the older equipment required more "jiggleing" if you will. I was also a bit confused about 'LAP' which, I had heard mentioned, but was never explained.
Reagrds,
Marco
ME:23 brake valve: From left to right:
Release: keeps trainline [brake pipe] fully charged and releases brakes when applied or keeps them released..Brake pipe pressure in release was normally 70 PSI on NYCT anyway. All older equipment.
Electric holding: like an electric retainer. Once you have your air set you can be in electric holding and the "set" you made is held electrically while the brake pipe is fully charged when you stop; nice smooth stop, no waiting for rear of train to release. If you're not usisng electric brake [normally you would] this position is also a release position but a slower release.
Handle off...a lap position but the brake pipe thru the train will not exhaust thoroughly. [air stops escaping]Also to remove handle]
Lap ..Exhausts brake pipe air after service application is made until brake pipe is at the same pressure thru the train; then no air in, none out.
Service...allows brake pipe air to exhaust as desired by the M/M or Engr.If you left handle in service it owould draw the brake pipe down to zero you have to go to lap as soon as you have the desired air set.[or electric holding]
Emergency: Rapidly exhausts all brake pipe air to cause an emergency stop. called the big hole due to more rapid exhaust.
R1-9, BMT AB and D type, IRT Low-V and Steinway, the DL&W MU's and I'm sure others had the AMUE brake schedule with ME23 valve.
I was looking and the shot I took of them being delived the two nights I was at 207st yard. I just notest that there are four air bags per truck not two like the R142's. Each axle has two on them (one per wheel), and a joint the pivest on a pin. This look like it is good to make them a even smoother ride.
I am mailing the shot the David today so he can put the on the sit. I would have done it my self but I don't have a scanner.
Robert
I have the drawings of the trucks as well as other drawings from the R-143 training manual. I'll be scanning them this weekend. I will e-mail a zip-file containing them to all who E-Mail me requesting them. I won't respond to those who post requests. I'm too lazy to copy the e-mail addresses for 40-50 people.
Will the R143s be delivered to the KHI Yonkers plant like the R142As?
-Dan
I think that the plant is already overloaded with R142As getting ready to get delivered.
Other then the 39th st. SBK yard, where are the other locations of where cars are waiting to be scrapped? This site has photos from a Naporano yard. Where is that? Are there any abandoned cars laying around anywhere in the NYC region?
-Dan
Due to the number of cars in service and limited yard space, NYCT car scrappings tend to happen quickly once they get going. Often the scrapper arrives at a regular yard with a crane and a fleet of flatbeds, lifts bodies off trucks and hauls them away to a junkyard. The actual scrapping takes place there at a liesurely pace. Naparano's (NIMCO), just off the NJ Turnpike, is an example. Smaller lots might be amassed at 39th St. and carfloated away. Small batches of out of service cars may be maintained at yards as parts sources for sisters still in service.
If there is a large volume of cars to be scrapped, NYCT will use some of Bush Terminal yardage for storage (particularly if NYCH is used for float-barging cars to Naporano in NJ).
Some Coney Island tracks are also used, but then again, not for long.
BMTman
Remember around 1968 or 9, some LIRR MP-54's and T-54's were sent to Coney Island for scrap ? Why was that ?
207 St Yard has a bunch of scrap cars laying around. About 3 tracks worth.
Not anymore. They had a G.O. a month back. They airlifted the P/Wire R44s out with the Union Square remains and 1909.
If you're talking to someone else, and they ask where you live (conversationally), what do you say?
Most people on this board from NYC or even in some of the suburbs basically would probably agree if they were described as New Yorkers. But is this your primary ID of your home?
When I lived in Flatbush, if someone in the CIty asked me where I lived, I said "Flatbush"--no further explanation necessary. Not a matter of local pride--Flatbush was where I lived. If I was talking t someone out of town (or I was out of town--like in the Army), then I would say "Brooklyn" or rarely "New York."
What do you say?
I live "On the Island"
Which Island? Staten Island, Manhattan Island, Long Ialsnd, Rikers Island or Royal Island?
Which Island? Staten Island, Manhattan Island, Long Ialsnd, Rikers Island or Royal Island?
You forgot Hart.
I also forgot Governor's Island and Roosevelt Island.
You forgot Wards and Randalls Island too.
And City Island, High Island, Coney Island, Mill Island, Hunter Island, Twin Island, Mill Rock Island, U Thant Island, North Brother Island, South Brother Island, Liberty Island, Ellis Island, Shooter's Island, Island of Meadows, Prall's Island, Hoffman Island, Swinburne Island, Berrian's Island, White Island, Barren Island and many others.
And what about Broad Channel?
Now the fact that nearly all of these islands are uninhabited and some of them aren't even islands doesn't matter.
This always meant Long Island to me. Here in Buffalo, it means Grand Island.
Oh you kid. Certainly not Rikers. We have only the good guys on this site, unless you include my buddy Brighton Express Bob. But even he has his moments.
If you have to ask, you're probably not from the NYC area.
That could be big topic of discussion. When I grew up in the suburbs, in Nassau County, when we said we are going to the "city," it meant we are going into Manhattan. It depends really on who you are chatting with. Some neighborhoods in NYC are well known are some are not. Flatbush is better known than Windsor Terrace. If I chatting with a non-New Yorker, I would first say I live in Queens, New York. Then if they said to me that they knew part of Queens, then I would say then in Bayside. So it really depends on the other person and what he/she know about NYC. Yes, this is the "BIG APPLE," but they are many "slices" to this big apple.
I hate that expression "the big apple" I rarely heard that term used by native new yorkers
When I first moved to California in 1954 and was asked where I was from and where I got that wierd accent, I said Brooklyn because everyone knew where that was and no one knew much of Queens. That is very different now and I think the reason is the METS!!!! Even though they are playing rather crappy now, they have built a loyal following around the country and we have a good number of them where I live. (I do a good job of brainwashing, too, and I sit here wearing my Mets cap.
If I'm talking to another person from the NYC area, Queens. If it's someone from another city, New York City.
When I lived on Long Island, it was the town if I was talking to another LI person, Long Island if it was someone otherwise from New York, or New York or "Levittown, NY" or "Babylon, NY" if it was out-of-state.
:-) Andrew
Well, I live in Jersey City NJ but sometimes I'll tell people I'm from New York City, especially when I'm travelling overseas. But around here, it's always "jersey".
Just like someone from Jersey, eh?
:)
Definitly not. I'm proud of living "Up Norf" or in "Norf Jerzee." And no matter what any New Yorker says NJ is not a suburb of the city, people in NJ do there own thing, some havin nothin what-so-ever to do with The City.
Mike
"Mr Mass Transit"
When I lived out West and I met someone from New Jersey, I asked what exit? Not the name of the town
Ha! That is a good one---but remember New Jersey stole both of New York's football teams and Big Apple residents still stupidly think of those teams as New York. So that's one for Joisey.
Same thing in Philly. You could tell someone in the area that you're from Yeadon, Upper Darby, Bristol, or even Camden, N.J., but to someone from another section of the country, you tell them you're from Philly (even if it crosses state lines). That's why New Jersey should change it's nickname from "The Garden State" to "The Great Suburb".
I live in Arcadia, California. It is about 15 miles from Los Angeles. I never tell people I'm from LA. If they inquire where Arcadia is I tell them. If they don't I figure they don't give a damn and neither do I. They could also get an Atlas.
If they inquire where Arcadia is I tell them. If they don't I figure they don't give a damn and neither do I.
That's OK, Fred... we understand that having to admit you're from California is humiliating enough :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Just say around the corner from Santa Anita Race Track. Able to get on line at work
>If I'm talking to another person from the NYC area, Queens. If it's >someone from another city, New York City.
Now you see I don't like that. The only people who are from NYC are those who live in Manhattan. Your from Queens and you should be proud that you're from Queens. Your sovergnity was wrongfully stripped in 1900. Furthermore people like you always force me to ask "Manhattan?".
The only people who are from NYC are those who live in Manhattan.
What kind of nonsense is this? Let me say in no uncertain terms that this is offensive.
Your from Queens and you should be proud that you're from Queens.
Damn straight. A proud New Yorker from Queens.
Your sovergnity was wrongfully stripped in 1900.
Wrong. In accordance with the popular will, we joined the big leagues in 1898 when we took our rightful status as a part (the biggest part, by the way) of the greatest city on earth, as opposed to a motley collection of backwater Wrong Island hick towns.
Furthermore people like you always force me to ask "Manhattan?".
People like you show how important it is for us Queens folks to be absolutely clear that we are from the City.
Ferdinand Cesarano
Wrong. In accordance with the popular will, we joined the big leagues in 1898 when we took our rightful status as a part (the biggest part, by the way) of the greatest city on earth, as opposed to a motley collection of backwater Wrong Island hick towns.
It would still have been part of a metropolis, just as the suburbs are, except there wouldn't be a powerful, bungling political beast in control of it. Everything except for Manhattan would be better off. Screw manhattan.
Si si Ferdinand! You're my kind of guy. Let's hear it for Queens, the largest of the boroughs and home of the METS.
Remember 20 pctis Jamaica Bay and the Marsh lands around it
Queens is part of New York City. Queens, Brooklyn, and The Bronx are, in a way, more New York than Manhattan. They're the real New York City behind the glitz and glamour and overpricedness.
:-) Andrew
That's why I call them the better boroughs. You get the alliteration and the truth.
I include Staten Island as one of the better boroughs to slight Manhattan.
Watch it Pig when you say Manhattan sucks. I said a few disparaging remarks about the Bronx and there are still a few guys on this site who won't talk to me. You might offend someone. I know from experience.
Can a former New Yorker add his two cents on this? Well I will anyway. You're right. When you go to Brooklyn and Queens and the Bronx, you see real New Yorkers with New York personalities and New York accent. In Manhattan you think you're inthe Mid-West when you hear some of those people speak. I want to hear New York when I come there, not Ohio or Wisconsin.
Try again. Manhattan doesn't end at 59th Street.
- David, who returned a few hours ago for a stroll around Washington Heights, from Audubon Terrace and Morris-Jumel Mansion along High Bridge Park, across 181st Street, and up Bennett Avenue to the cliffs beneath Fort Tryon Park at one of the stations the IND did right. (And as for overpricedness, just before that I found some great bargains at a street fair on the Upper West Side. So there.)
>>>>Now you see I don't like that. The only people who are from NYC are those who live in Manhattan.
Your from Queens and you should be proud that you're from Queens. Your sovergnity was wrongfully
stripped in 1900. Furthermore people like you always force me to ask "Manhattan?". <<<
Queens consolidation into NYC was kind of complicated. In 1898, Queens consisted of not only Queens, but all of what would become Nassau County. To make a long story short, three eastern towns in Queens (Hempstead, N Hempstead and Oyster Bay) voted to break away and become Nassau County rather than join the western section and join NYC.
I read that Queens voted with a clear majority to consolidate; only in Brooklyn was opposition very strong and consolidation approved by a small margin. So, it's incorrect to say that Queens' sovereignty was 'wrongfully stripped'.
Although, it's fun to imagine what Queens would be like today had it NOT joined NYC---or what Nassau County would be like had it remained a part of Queens and joined NYC as well....
www.forgotten-ny.com
Queens consolidation into NYC was kind of complicated. In 1898, Queens consisted of not only Queens, but all of what would become Nassau County. To make a long story short, three eastern towns in Queens (Hempstead, N Hempstead and Oyster Bay) voted to break away and become Nassau County rather than join the western section and join NYC.
Membership in New York City was never offered to them. They even remained in Queens County while the west was already taken over by Evil Manhattan. They could have remained Queens County.
I read that Queens voted with a clear majority to consolidate; only in Brooklyn was opposition very strong and consolidation approved by a small margin. So, it's incorrect to say that Queens' sovereignty was 'wrongfully stripped'.
Long Island City voted with a clear majority. The remainder voted as closely as Brooklyn.
Although, it's fun to imagine what Queens would be like today had it NOT joined NYC---or what Nassau County would be like had it remained a part of Queens and joined NYC as well....
Again, New York City membership was never offered to what is now Nassau County. If it remained part of Queens County, it would not be part of New York City anyway.
Although, it's fun to imagine ... what Nassau County would be like had it remained a part of Queens and joined NYC as well
A lot of crooked politician would have had to find other work.
If I'm talking to another Chicagoan, I'll usually say I live in Edgewater, or sometimes "Foster and Sheridan" or "5200 North". Referring to your location within the city by the nearest major street intersection or by your street number seems rather unique to Chicago.
If I'm talking to a suburbanite, then I'll say I live "in the city." (If they ask which city, then I'll give them a dirty look.)
If I'm talking to somebody from outside the Chicago area, then I simply say I live in Chicago. I hardly ever say Illinois, since the state of Illinois outside of Chicago may as well be a foreign country.
Whenever I've lived in suburban areas, I'll usually refer to the specific suburb if I'm talking to somebody from that area, or just round it off to the nearest city if I'm talking to somebody else. Examples: I'm originally from Cincinnati even though I actually lived just across the river in Fort Thomas, and over this past summer I lived in Boston for a few months even though I was really living in Brookline and working in Cambridge.
-- David
Chicago, IL
(If I'm talking to somebody from outside the Chicago area, then I simply say I live in Chicago. I hardly ever say Illinois, since the state of Illinois outside of Chicago may as well be a foreign country.)
Hence the advantage of NYC over Chicago. Chicago is a great town I hear, and I'd like to visit someday, but while I like corn as much as the next guy, I doubt I'll be touring the rest of the state. Upstate NY, the Hudson River Valley, and Long Island's east end are very nice in comparsion, although I hear Michigan's upper peninsula is worth a look.
I'll give New York the advantage on that one. Chicago is a great city, but outside the city limits, it's pretty much 50 miles of suburban sprawl and then nothing but cornfields.
A few exceptions:
The tony North Shore suburbs are very nice all the way from Evanston up through Lake Bluff. Probably not too different than the nicer parts of Long Island.
Southeast of the city along Archer Avenue to Joliet goes through some interesting areas, and has almost a rural feel to it. There's even a few hills.
Further west of Chicago, there are some very scenic lakes and river valleys. Starved Rock, I'm told, even has canyons and waterfalls. I plan on taking a drive out there some Saturday whenever I get a chance.
Outside of Illinois but still close to Chicago, we have places like Lake Geneva, Wisconsin, and the Indiana Dunes.
The Midwest is still no match for the scenic areas in the Northeast, but not without its merits.
-- David
Chicago, IL
I heartily concur. In addition to NYC, I've lived in upstate New York (Ithaca) and downstate Illinois (Champaign-Urbana). Illinois (outside Chicago) is simply more mind-numbingly boring than I had ever imagined -- and, believe me, I looked. There's simply nothing there. I'm still working on my degree there but I couldn't take it any longer and escaped in January when my lease ended.
Maybe it's easier for those who've never experienced anything better, but I just don't know how so many people have no difficulty living there. (Someone even told me that he finds corn fields scenic but is bored by mountains. He's welcome to his opinion but I cannot comprehend it. They all look the same!)
You so exaggerate! There are like 2 OK bars in C-U.
Seriously there is some intellectual stimulation and some cultural diversity in a college town. Ever been to Rantoul or Danville to see the deep midwest?
Many of them don't like the lifestyle available on the prarie, that's why if you're born there with any brains or initative you'll probably end up moving to at least Chicago, maybe LA, Florida or New Mexico. Those that stay- now that's a batch weird psychological profiles. You could make it big in Hollywood by just putting a camera on some of the people I've met.
Fine, there are bars in C-U, but I find that drinking makes me feel like I have a fever. Having just been through that last week, I can definitively state that I have no interest in drinking. (I'll drink a bit of wine with a meal, but drinking for the sake of drinking is just unpleasant.)
Yes, what the university provides is fine -- but I need more than that. I need to be able to step back and look at the world, and if all I see is corn, I'm afraid I'm not satisfied. I once went for a drive down 1st Street to see where it led. After seven or eight miles, I realized it would probably continue to run, straight as an arrow, until it hit a major river. The highlight of the evening was the colorful sign announcing a high-oil hybrid. That's sad.
I've driven around Illinois in search of something a bit more entertaining. The terrain around Danville, Decatur, and Peoria lends some natural interest to those areas, and of course I've been to a few of the state parks, but I'm afraid my New York experience has set my standards too high for Illinois state parks.
"Where are you from originally?"
To non New Yorker's I respond "Brooklyn".
To New Yorker's I respond "Cypress Hills". This always results in a puzzled expression. I try to explain where I lived, and the reponse is, "Oh, you mean East New York!"
I have the impression that 9 out of 10 New Yorker's have no clue as to where Cypress Hills is. I can't say anything since I moved out 40 years ago, and these people still live in New York!
Cypress Hills has a much different feel than East New York, even many years ago. They're only physically close.
My last Brooklyn digs were on E.13th Street, between between S and T. The neighborhood actually had a proper, non-BS name, "Homecrest"--a block away was Homecrest Avenue. But I always said "Sheepshead Bay," because that clicked in people's minds, but by me Sheepshead Bay doesn't really start until south of Neck Rd.
OT--Until the Brighton Line was put in the cut c.1907, Newkirk Avenue station was called "South Midwood," but in my growing up years in Flatbush this wuldn't have been NORTH of Midwood proper, and in the southern part of what we'd call Flatbush. I suppose the "South" part of the station possibly dates from the old Dutch in which Flatbush and Midwood were more or less the same area.
Paul, technically, I believe the area just immediately SOUTH and EAST of the Newkirk is referred to as South Greenfield (besides the classy residential area of Ditmas Park that lies within).
BMTman
No, Doug, the area south and east of Newkirk Avenue station is known as Fiske Terrace, as was the Avenue H station for a few years.
A few before and after (grade crossing elimination) Brighton names:
Cortelyou Road was Avenue C.
Newkirk Avenue was South Midwood.
Avenue J was Manhattan Terrace.
Avenue M was Elm Avenue (different street) and before that, South Greenfield.
Just for the record, there was a station sign at Albemarle Road for Prospect Park South for a few years before the elimination, but I don't think the trains ever made regular stops there.
Paul, am I correct that South Greenfield was FURTHER south -- like closer to Ave M and the old Vitagraph studios?? (almost before Homecrest?)
Yes, Doug, the station for Vitagraph at Avenue M/Elm Avenue was South Greenfield.
Was "South Greenfield" ever south of a main "Greenfield" or was it just a southern green field and thus got its name?
Anybody know of where I can find a large scale map that shows the borders between the old Kings County towns? I got data from the map on the LIRR History part of Paul Matus's site, but that doesn't clear up some ambiguities.
There is one guy who probably has EVERY map ever produced about Brooklyn. His name is Brian Merlis (aka 'Mr. Brooklyn'). Unfortunately, he ain't likely to be parting with any of them in the near future.
BMTman
Reproductions are good. He could reproduce all of those maps for which the copyright has lapsed.
>>>There is one guy who probably has EVERY map ever produced about Brooklyn. His name is Brian
Merlis (aka 'Mr. Brooklyn'). Unfortunately, he ain't likely to be parting with any of them in the near
future. <<<
For the right price, he would. I plan to see him later this month for pics of early Kings Highway, for a page for
www.forgotten-ny.com
His collection is truly prodigious. He is the Barry Halper (Yankees collector) of Brooklyn and NYC nostalgia. He once showed me a pristine copy of a 1920s Belcher Hyde Brooklyn desk atlas...to me, one of the holy grails of Brooklyn street maps. They have one at the Brooklyn Business Library but it's all rotten and falling apart...
I'm not sure about "Greenfield." My guess is yes, but that's only a guess.
The problem in routing out old names is that the incorporated political subdivisions (in NY, cities and villages) and the statutory ones (if that's the correct term--counties, towns) are easy to trace, because they have legal boundries and clear documentation. So you'll have no trouble going to, say, the Brooklyn or NY Public Libraries and tracing the exact borders of Brooklyn City, Flatbush Town, Flatbush Village, Flatlands Town, etc., etc. at different times.
When you get to names like "South Greenfield" you need to know whether there was a Greenfield to be south of, was this Greenfield a neighborhood, or maybe a little settlement, or even a real estate name.
And these change over time. Railroad stations pin down names, but they don't necessarily have legal significance. The LIRR renamed its Babylon station "Seaside" for a couple of years in the 19th century, but this was neither a legal name change nor did it last. But you'll find pictures of "Seaside" station.
So you need not one map, but possibly many to do anything like an exhaustive study.
>>>The LIRR renamed its Babylon station "Seaside" for a couple of years in the 19th
century, but this was neither a legal name change nor did it last. But you'll find pictures of "Seaside"
station. <<<
Ron Ziel's "Victorian RR Stations of Long Island" has a complete list of all the wacky LIRR station name changes over the past century. Wyandanch once went to "Wyandance" and then back to Wyandanch for instance...
www.forgotten-ny.com
Railroad stations pin down names, but they don't necessarily have legal significance. The LIRR renamed its Babylon station "Seaside" for a couple of years in the 19th century, but this was neither a legal name change nor did it last. But you'll find pictures of "Seaside" station.
Was the village itself renamed, or just the station?
I think renaming Babylon ststaion "Seaside" was some time in the 1870s or '80s to promote the RR's Fire Island business. Babylon didn't incorporate as a village until 1892, I think. So AFAIK the name never got beyond the station.
Railroads are influential in naming, though. If "Seaside" stayed on the station long enough it might have caught on. My late mother-in-law used to like to tell about "the Welsh people" who named some of the areas west of Philadelphia with names like Llanarch, Bala, Ardmore and Narberth. But these places apparently all got these name in the 1890s when the Pennsy thought they'd sound nice for real estate reasons.
Narberth was simply "Elm" before that. Ardmore was "Athens." Maybe the Welsh people chased out the Greeks. ;-)
It became Midwood. But why? Why did the name Midwood which it seems was synonymous with Flatbush end up being shifted to the former South Greenfield? and when?
I believe 'South Greenfield' only encompasses a very small area that starts at the southern edge of Midwood and extends south to what Paul Matus said was Homecrest. Think of 'South Greenfield' as the neighborhood immediately north of Kings Highway with east-west borders being Ocean Ave. and Coney Island Ave. Very narrow and short area (probably created by Real Estate developers who were eager to create an 'exotic' name for a particular stretch of Midwood that they were trying to sell).
BMTman
I believe 'South Greenfield' only encompasses a very small area that starts at the southern edge of Midwood and extends south to what Paul Matus said was Homecrest. Think of 'South Greenfield' as the neighborhood immediately north of Kings Highway with east-west borders being Ocean Ave. and Coney Island Ave. Very narrow and short area (probably created by Real Estate developers who were eager to create an 'exotic' name for a particular stretch of Midwood that they were trying to sell).
And don't forget the rule of nature - all right, the rule of the real estate industry - under which the boundaries of a 'hood increase in direct proportion to its perceived desirability :-)
Acfually, "South Greenfield" is one of the older station names on the Brighton Line. I case trace it at least to 1885. It predates Manhattan Terrace (Avenue J) and, of course, Avenue H (Fiske Terrace).
There was no settlement to speak of at South Greenfield, and it was early for real estate drumming in that area. The only sizable settlement very close by was Flatlands, the heart of which surrounded current Kings Highway at Flatbush Avenue.
Perhaps "South Greenfield" originally described someone's farm or estate.
Doug,
I think the name is Greenfield, not South Greenfield - I grew up in the area and remember a civil patrol by the Greenfield Civic Action Council. Regarding Midwood and Flatbush, I'm remember that when growing up I used to describe the area I was from as Flatbush, even though it is clearly Midwood - when I mentioned the name Midwood at that time, I would get blank stares, even from people living in adjacent neighborhoods. Incidentally, Greenfield is a sudivision of Midwood - I think it runs from East 16th to Ocean Avenue, and from the LIRR cut in the north - I'm not sure what the southern boundry is.
subfan
See my response to Doug re: South Greenfield. My Uncle Sandy lived on E.19th and Newkirk until he died a few years ago at age 90. We called that Flatbush. My aunt lived on E.24th between J and K and everyone there called it Midwood. My dad said Midwood was part of Flatbush. He was born near Coney Island Avenue (the other side of the tracks, literally and figuratively), in 1908 and told me about the orchards that were still around in his youth.
Long ago and far away.
Paul,
I lived on East 19th too, near Avenue L - everyone there used to call it Flatbush when I was younger (1970's), but started referring to it as Midwood some time in the 1980's, probably to distinguish it from the areas near Church Avenue, which were preceived as not as desirable any more (no offence intended to anyone). It was interesting; there was one older gentleman on the block who had lived there since the late 1890's who had pictures of the block when it was a watermelon field.
BTW, Elm Avenue is still there, at least in part - it runs from Coney Island Ave. to Avenue M between East 15 and East 16 - right at the Brighton line, then picks up again to run from East 17 to East 18. It is one of several remnants of the old Midwood street system that can be seen in the area.
subfan
Ditmas Park is adjacent to Kensington, If you cross coney Island avenue going from that area, If one lives on avenue H around there, they would be living in Midwood they say, If you live between Ocean Parkway and Coney Island ave on 18th avenue thru ave H you'd be living in Parkville, just thought I'd throw that in.
>>>Paul, technically, I believe the area just immediately SOUTH and EAST of the Newkirk is referred to
as South Greenfield (besides the classy residential area of Ditmas Park that lies within). <<<
Older maps from the late 1800s show South Greenfield as a small town along the RR. At this point Flatbush was mostly farms with small villages scattered along main routes like what would become Flatbush Ave and Kings Highway.
Today, a reminder of S. Greenfield are a set of streets that don't follow the grid and are named for trees, like Locust, Cedar, Chestnut, etc. I suppose when they cut the newer streets through, the property owners along these streets wouldn't budge and so Brooklyn was built around them. Shades of early 20th Century NIMBYism!
My question is, where was Greenfield, if there was a South Greenfield?
www.forgotten-ny.com
I'm the first one to admit that Cypress Hills is a strange name for a community in Brooklyn. I recall one response was "You lived in a cemetary?"
Karl, there is also a Cypress Hills in California. I believe it is an area near East LA.
BMTman
Doug, I'm sure that you know there is a Brooklyn in Maryland, in fact there is also one in Pennsylvania.
And in Minnesota.
And a Manhattan in Illinois not far south of Chicago. Far enough from the city to not be a suburb until recently, but close enough that one of the commuter rail lines will be extended there in the next 5-10 years. Then, one will be able to take a train from downtown Chicago to the heart of Manhattan without using Amtrak. :^)
Brooklyn in Maryland is a community in South Baltimore. Just like the one in New York, you have to go over the bridge (Hanover Street in our case) to get there. Brooklyn is a nice, middle class, working neighborhood.
Brooklyn in Maryland is a community in South Baltimore. Just like the one in New York, you have to go over the bridge (Hanover Street in our case) to get there. Brooklyn is a nice, middle class, working neighborhood.
There's also a Brooklyn neighborhood in Waterbury, Connecticut, south of Downtown on the west side of the Naugatuck River. It used to be a working-class community, home to many immigrants from Lithuania, but today is scarcely more than a ghetto.
Brooklyn in Pennsylvania is a tiny little farming community of about 250, really out in the country in Susquehanna County.
There is a Brooklyn, Ohio just outside Cleveland.
:-) Andrew
People are just dying to get in there....
;-D Andrew
Rim shot!
I'm the first one to admit that Cypress Hills is a strange name for a community in Brooklyn. I recall one response was "You lived in a cemetary?"
I suppose the (live) residents of Woodlawn have the same problem!
That never occurred to me. I'm glad that my old neighborhood isn't the only one thought to be a cemetery.
A co-worker who lives at P & East 13th claims it's in Sheepshead Bay. I think that's Midwood, and that Sheepshead starts below Avenue S. Some call the area between P and S between McDonald and Nostrand 'Kings Highway'.
While Midwood is a very old name, it's come to symbolize where people who think they're too 'good' to live in Flatbush say they live instead. Kensington's taken on a similar meaning.
As for me, I say "Flushing". That's good enough for most non-Queensites. Those familiar with the area know there are many subareas of Flushing: Queensborough Hill, Kew Garden Hills, Broadway, Murray Hill, Auburndale, Flushing Suburban, Hillcrest, Cunningham Park North. Then I say "Mitchell Gardens, off Union Street." If that doesn't do it, I say "Pathmark".
I grew up in Whitestone, but very close to the confluence of that locality, Flushing and Bayside. Some reference books say Whitestone is completely north of the Cross Island between the Whitestone and Throgs Neck Bridges, and anything south of the parkway is Flushing.
To further clarify, I'd say by the McDonald's on Francis Lewis. Every nighttime drag racer in the metropolitan area seemed to know that one.
Bayside has
While Midwood is a very old name, it's come to symbolize where people who think they're too 'good' to live in Flatbush say they live instead. Kensington's taken on a similar meaning.
While Kensington is a "I don't want to be in Flatbush" sort of thing, today's Midwood was never part of Flatbush. It was in Gravesend.
Kensington is a distinct neighborhood with its own atmosphere unrelated to Flatbush, everything north of 18th avenuebetween CI avenue and Mcdonald Avenue to Coortelyu Road. with Ditmas being its primary shopping area, once upon a time it was 18th avenue, but now ditmas avenue leads the way with many new shops and buisnesses opening up in recent months going along with the increasing real estate prices there.
>>While Kensington is a "I don't want to be in Flatbush" sort of thing<<
Come down to Philly, and NOBODY wants to be in Kensington.
What's the difference between Flatbush and Midwood?
I know lots of people who tell me they live in Flatbush, but others claim they really live in Midwood.
My grandparents, for instance, lived on I between 23rd and 24th. To them and their community, this was always Flatbush. (I remember when they moved to Flatbush -- specifically to Flatbush. They previously lived in Bensonhurst.) Yet others have told me that they actually lived in Midwood, and that Flatbush actually referred to the (entirely distinct, although not terribly distant) neighborhood around the terminus of the 2 train. So who's right? Is it possible that an entire community living in the neighborhood -- probably the largest community living in the neighborhood -- doesn't even know what it's called? (I have my own opinions on these matters, but I'll allow others to comment.)
What's the difference between Flatbush and Midwood?
I know lots of people who tell me they live in Flatbush, but others claim they really live in Midwood.
Midwood is considered somewhat more upscale than Flatbush. As a result, people who tend to be more concerned with status might be likely to say Midwood.
As one who grew up in the Midwood zip code (11230) and went to Midwood HS, I always thought Midwood was a sub-section of Flatbush, which, in my own mind, was a large area bounded by McDonald Av on the west, Kings Highway on the south and southeast, maybe Utica Av on the east and somewhere between Empire Blvd and Eastern Parkway on the north, including the Parade Grounds in Prospect Park, while the Midwood section was inside it, with Foster Av on the north, Ocean Parkway on the west, Av M on the south, Nostrand on the east north to the Junction, and then Flatbush back to Foster. National Geographic, in an article on Brooklyn in the 1980's, claimed the area I lived in was called Ditmas Park. Frankly, I had never heard that term before that.
Ditmas Park was a nice upscale real estate development running from Dorchester Road to Newkirk Avenue on both sides of the Brighton Line. The name goes back to about 1910. Is this where you lived?
Flatbush was the town--there was no town of Midwood, but even back to the Dutch era, Flatbush and Midwood (or their Dutch origin names) were synonymous.
From my memory and usage I saw in the '50s (from people who lived there back to the 'teens or earlier) Flatbush was generally regarded as the area more or less bounded by a line through Prospect Park on the north through to Empire Boulevard (but this was also regarded to sort of include Ebbets Field), Nostrand Avenue on the east, the LIRR on the south and Coney Island Avenue on the west.
South of this with the same east-west boundaries was Midwood down to about Kings Highway.
Out on Long Island a lot of the names of unincorporated areas often follow the school district. If you went to Erasmus you were in Flatbush. If you went to Midwood High...
Midwood is a magnet school. I applied there.
Anyway, what is now Midwood was mainly in Gravesend, not in Flatbush at all.
In my novel I have a character who hails from East NY, in Queens. He lived in the 40s walking to Franklin K. Lane High.
My mother lived in Bklyn but rode the train to Lane in the early 50s. She remembers the area as E. NY, not as Cypress Hills.
East NY is in Brooklyn, not Queens.
subfan
Well, I've just consulted the map that I went by when researching ...
uh-oh.
East NY, right there within the apparent Brooklyn border. It looks like Elderts lane running north from Atlantic to the cemetery (x-street Jamaica) is the demarcation between bklyn & queens. So that places the Cypress hills station in Bklyn? What about 75th/Elderts station? What about the school? Is F.K. Lane in Brk or Queens?
Looks like I'll have to pull my story from publication.
It has never been determined how much, but a portion of Franklin K Lane is in Queens.
Lane does have a mailing address in Brooklyn the last I heard! I think it is 999 Jamaica Ave Brooklyn 11208!
The 1994-95 Directory of Public High Schools lists Lane as a Queens school (that means it's run by the Queens superintendent), but gives its address exactly as you said!
It sounds as if you have access to some good reference material.
Is there any chance that you can determine when Brooklyn's Fairfield Ave's name was changed, and it became an extension of Flatlands Ave?
I never even even knew that happened! Where was the changeover between Fairfield and Flatlands? I assume Williams Avenue. Hagstrom still has the addresses after Williams starting from one even though they get to the 10800s up there. Currently the addresses continue from the 10800s sequentially up to 12755, the highest numbered address in Brooklyn.
And I don't think that my reference material is all that great. The high school directory is given to everyone who goes to the eighth grade in New York City.
In a conversation with BMT Man several months ago, I learned that Fairfield Ave did not exist anymore, and it was now called Flatlands. It must have been some time ago that the change was made because he had not even heard of Fairfield Ave. I'm sure you are right about Williams Ave!
On a Brooklyn Topographical map, the actual division line (at least on the southern edge) is just east of Fountain Avenue -- actually it is almost in mid-stream of Fresh Creek. Howard Beach -- which is in Queens -- starts on the opposite side of Fountain Ave. on the Belt Parkway at that point.
BMTman
Brooklyn City Border/Queens County Border Run Right Thru The Center of the School The Schools Address is in Brooklyn.
I guess the facts of life are that people who said they lived in Cypress Hills as I once did wouldn't say they lived in East New York mainly because of the association with East NY being a bad neighborhood by some people's standards by the late 60's early 70's.
I lived for a few months in 73 on Schenck near Jamaica Ave and had no problems but that was mostly private homes there.
My imaginary border was Crescent St...that Cypress Hills ran from there to the border, north of Atlantic. But it was still the East NY voting didtrict when I lived there and in the 75th police precinct.
Well, I've just consulted the map that I went by when researching ...
uh-oh.
East NY, right there within the apparent Brooklyn border. It looks like Elderts lane running north from Atlantic to the cemetery (x-street Jamaica) is the demarcation between bklyn & queens. So that places the Cypress hills station in Bklyn? What about 75th/Elderts station? What about the school? Is F.K. Lane in Brk or Queens?
Looks like I'll have to pull my story from the shelves.
Cypress Hills is the last community in Brooklyn before Woodhaven, Queens. It is that area bounded by Elderts Lane, Atlantic Ave, Pennsylvania Ave and Jamaica Ave. East New York is in Brooklyn, and is to the west of Cypress Hills.
Are you writing a booK about me? I walked to Franklin K Lane from 1950-1954!
"The Complete Map of Brooklyn (New York City)," published 1976 by Geographia Map Co. Inc. places its East new York designation on an area south of Atlantic. South of Eastern Pkwy, even. Extending north to Jamaica. I see Woodhaven to the east of Elderts as you say. So, according to them, it's larger than the way you're defining it. But these neighborhood designations are not given specific map boundaries, so it's all kinda vague.
The area you described appears to be south of, not west of the cemetery. A big green areea labelled Cypress Hills Cemetery is immediately north of Jamaica. Other adjacent greenery has other names, "lutheran cemetery," "cemetery of the everglades" "lebanon cemetery."
No, I'm not writing about you. Sorry. Maybe the next one!
Apparently I'll have to revise. I interpreted East NY as part of Queens.
My info is that Lane was a mostly Italian-american school back then (late 40s/50s). True?
I did a websearch on the school back when I was writing in '99 and it seems there was an uproar of parents wanting to transfer students out of fear that the area, and school, had become some kind of a street gang war zone. Sheesh.
I looked up the school's website and read about it. It's a heckuva facility. They didn't make high schools like that out here in Calif.
My mother said John Gotti went there later. Then to Penn State.
No wait a minute, I think she said State Pen.
Cypress Hills has sometimes been thought of as being part of East New York. I would like to correct my western boundary. Cypress Hills starts at the junction of Fulton St, Atlantic Ave & Broadway. This is several blocks west of what I originally told you. The Highland Park area is often considered as part of CH, even thought it is north of Jamaica Ave. The same could be said for City Line which is south of Atlantic.
CH is indeed south of the CH Cemetery, as well as a number of other small cemeteries. Incidentally, it's Cemetery of the Evergreens, not Everglades.
My recollection is that the student population of Lane in those days was evenly mixed between Afro-American, Italian, Irish & German.
No matter how you figure it, East New York is in Brooklyn, not Queens!
and its primarily a Black neighborhood, East New York, Brownsville, Cypress Hill, Bushwick, Junction, Bed Stuy, Ocean Hill form what now some people call the "central brooklyn ghetto"
You said it my friend. Don't we know it....
We were down there a couple of weeks ago under the EL "3" line and the "L". What a bloody mess, garbage all over the place and vacant lots down Livonia ave. Ghetto yeah baby, you said it. I can't imagine what ENY looked like 15 years ago if today it looks like this. Many new townhouses being built. This must have been a ghost town, with nothing but vacant lots.
How does a city get to be this way???
I read "evergreens" and wrote "everglades." I must have been living in florida for too long, (21 months. yep. too long).
I certainly stand corrected. East NY and Queens are two separate places, I thought they were one within the other. Thanks for pointing it out.
Gentlemen, might I recommend a book that I recently purchased on ebay that could help out in this area. It is called, "A History of New Lots: including the Villages of East New York, Cypress Hills, and Brownsville", by Alter F. Landesman, published by Kennikat Press, 1977, Port Washington. It is a very good reference source for the history of the New Lots area from the days of the American Revolution to the early 20th Century. It is available at most major libraries since this is obviously an out-of-print item.
I just got it down from the bookshelf and will be studying it over the weekend. So if any of you guys have any specific questions, you might want to contact me off line and I'll see what I can do...
BMTman
So, to make sure I understand, if someone was living near Elderts Ln, which is the border between E NY and Queens, they would consider themselves either a resident of E. NY/Bklyn or a resident of Queens. People (some at least) in common usage don't combine E. NY with Queens. Even if they went to F.K. Lane, which is and has been given addresses in both Bk and Q. Correct?
People who live on the west side of the street on Elderts Lane live in Cypress Hills, Brooklyn. Those who live on the east side of the street live in Woodhaven, Queens. The county line runs right dowm the middle of the street.
It is my belief that Franklin K Lane is geographically on the line with 3/4 of the school in Brooklyn, and the remainder in Queens. The principal's office used to be on the east end of the building, which would put it in Queens. Today's B of E apparently considers it a Queen's high school, but 50 years ago I thought of it as a Brooklyn school.
(I looked up the school's website and read about it. It's a heckuva facility. They didn't make high schools like that out here in Calif.)
If you are in California, then you should know that East New York was a working class/middle class area down on the outwash plain. Cypress Hills is up on the terminal morraine, with the Interboro (now Jackie Robinson) Parkway and the cemetaries above it and East New York below. You can only get down to East New York on a few street. The hill is such that it reminds me of Yonkers, my hometown -- there are very few hills on Long Island.
So Cypress Hills was and is a little ritzier. Now Cypress Hills is working class/middle class while East New York is dirt poor.
(I have the impression that 9 out of 10 New Yorker's have no clue as to where Cypress Hills is. I can't say anything since I moved out 40 years ago, and these people still live in New York!)
I certainly know where it is. Perhaps you can tell me about that big, fancy looking apartment building up on Highland Blvd. (I think). Who lived there that such a high cost building was financially feasible? It certainly towers over the landscape below like a castle.
Highland Blvd (Vito P Batista Blvd) is in Highland Park. Cypress Hills is south of Jamaica Avenue.
I hesitate to correct you, but at least one published writer has included the area in Cypress Hills. Everything up to the Interboro Pkwy, including the Ridgewood Reservior has been considered to be part of Cypress Hills.
I would like to refer you to the book The Neighborhoods of Brooklyn, but I can't remember the author's name.
I have vague memories of several very nice homes on Highland Blvd. Travel routes in our family changed, and I think that the last time I was in the immediate area was when I was 10, about 1945. I don't recall the building that you refer to, but perhaps it wasn't even there back then.
I live in Swindon in the UK. A former railway town and home of the Great Western Railway. For the past three years 2.1% of my time has been spent in New York City and New Jersey in various hotels whilst enjoying my Subway Tours with the help of "subtalk friends".
Simon
Swindon UK
As everyone else is saying, it depends who I'm talking to and where I am. If I'm out of state, I'll say California, the Bay Area. If in-state, I'll name the city, (non-descrept suburb Fremont) but if I'm in another part of Calif, I might have to specify the BAy Area.
More pertinently, when someone asks where I'm from, I say Brooklyn. If they're familiar with NYC, I'll add Bedford-Stuyvesant. Everyone knows where Brooklyn is, and everyone there knows Bed-Stuy.
I've always appreciated Spike Lee for putting Bed-Stuy on the map, for better or worse.
Uh...correction, Spike Lee is from Fort Greene (and before then, Cobble Hill).
Sorry about my 'Crooklyn' technicalities....:-)
BMTman
I'm going by 'Do the Right Thing,' 'She's Gotta Have It,' Jungle Fever, all of which takes place in Brooklyn, correct?
Yes, the action takes place in Bed-Stuy for the film 'Do the Right Thing'. Most of 'She's Gotta Have It" was shot in Downtown Brooklyn and Fort Greene. 'Jungle Fever' on the other hand, was shot primarily in the borough of Manhattan and Brooklyn's Old Mill Basin neighorhood(which doubled for Bensonhurst).
BMTman
Now you got me. I'm not clear on what locale Jungle Fever was supposed to be taking place in. I know Bensonhurst, but where did W. Snipes live? Harlem or was it supposed to be Bklyn?
harlem, now that I think a little more. Right?
I've always appreciated Spike Lee for putting Bed-Stuy on the map, for better or worse.
Ans Billy joel, before him.
Well, usually I just say, "in Relative Obscurity," but if I'm feeling like elaborating...
Answers to "Where do you live?":
To people in New York City and vicinity:
"Astoria" (even though I'm technically in "Long Island City," which seems to evoke images of abandoned factories and strip clubs), although those of us who live in my neighborhood who are not from New York originally will still say we are going "into the city" when we're talking about hopping on the 'N' or the 'R' for a 10 minute trip to Manny-hattie.
To most people where I grew up:
"New York City."
To the less geographically-challenged where I grew up:
"Queens."
Answers to "Where did you grow up?"
[a question asked of me by New Yorkers when they hear my lack-of-accent, mid-american speech (not midwest american speech, mind you -- my vowels are most definitely not as flat as the topography between the Alleghenies and the Rockies):
To people in New York City and vicinity:
"Pennsylvania" (most of them are then thinking I mean either Philadelphia or the Poconos)
To the less geographically-challenged in New York City and vicinity:
"Harrisburg," which might as well be "Columbus" or "Springfield" since the world ends at the Hudson, as you know. Sometimes if people still look at me blankly I mention Three Mile Island and challenge them to turn off the lights to see if I glow.
To people where I grew up, or people who look like they might belong to Book of the Month Club:
"Camp Hill" which is to Harrisburg what Darien is to New York (small, insular, and all-white, unfortunately), and also the home of the mail-order book concern.
--KP
Descriptions I always use that never work:
1 - Orange County - too many of them in this country, and even in Manhattan no one seems to know where it is. Every time I use it, I have to add on the "New York", and then it still doesn't work.
2 - Upstate - only valid in the New York metropolitan area, and always requires elaboration - see #1.
3 - Downstate - I use this one whenever I'm up here in "Central New York" - see #2.
4 - New York - "Oh, you mean the city?" - ugh!
5 - near Newburgh - only a select few know where Newburgh is. West Point sometimes works.
6 - Washingtonville - not a chance in hell.
6 - Washingtonville - not a chance in hell.
Actually, there are a few of us who know where Washingtonville is... the late Ralph Coon (a dear family friend and classmate of my parents at Syracuse University, way back in the dim dark ages) served many years as principal of the high school there and I think perhaps as superintendent before he retired around 1980.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I'm FROM New York, but I now live in (suburban) Boston.
Of course, when I was young and we lived in Howard Beach, we'd talk about going into "the city." Even when we moved to Roslyn Heights, going to Manhattan was going into "the city," but going to visit Howard Beach was going "to Queens."
I live in Exton, Pa. , which is 30 miles west of Philly. I always tell out of towners I live "close to Philly". I go into Philly for the mass transit, if nothing else.
Chuck Greene
To be honest, I wouldn't know where Exton was if it wasn't for the PRR Main Line stop there, and I'm from Pennsylvania!
Of course, if you say "Harrisburg" to any railfan, they know where you're talking about, thanks to the PRR making it the terminus of Main Line electrification westward, plus Enola yard, etc.
Hey Chuck, Is Exton still home to that nice Entenmann's Outlet Store? It has been years but I think it was on the south side of Route 30!
i hide behide a "800" number so i get the question "Where am i speaking to?" my answer is the jersey swamps!! if they need more info across the river from gaint stadium. i work in secaucus nj
When I'm outside Brooklyn, I say I live in Brooklyn. If someone asks what part, I say Windsor Terrace. When they say "huh?", I say near Park Slope. I try to get in a reference to the F train where possible.
When asked where I'm from, I say Yonkers. When they say "huh?," I say just north of the Bronx.
I can understand not knowing where Windsor Terrace is. But not knowing Yonkers is absolute insanity.
I think it is a 4-level response:
1. If I am within Queens, I say "Woodhaven". (When I was a kid, the answer was "QV" -- usually not "Queens Village", but "cue vee".)
2. If I am in another borough, or in nearby areas like North Jersey, Long Island, or Westchester, then the answer is "Queens".
3. If I am talking to someone from elsewhere within the Northeast, I say "New York City". (That's "New York City" as opposed to "New York" so that they don't mistake "New York" for the state, and ask "what city?")
4. When talking to anyone else, I say "New York", and that is always understood to mean the City.
Ferdinand Cesarano
I Was Born In The City Of Brooklyn In 1971 Lived In Ridgewood On Brooklyn City/Queens County Border, City Line/East New York City Of Brooklyn, & Ozone Park Queens. I Now Live In Tempe, Arizona A Subburb Of Both Phoenix (Largest City In Az) And Mesa Arizona (2/3 Largest City In Az) But for Out Of State People I Live In Phoenix.
State of Disbelief.
As you point out, it depends on the context. In the summer, we lived in Rockaway. When you said you were going to the "city", or, you were asked "Where do you live in the 'city'?" it meant where do you live the other 10 months of the year, which, in my case, was Brooklyn. When in Brooklyn, going to the 'city' meant going to Manhattan. When out of town, I tell people I'm originally from "the city", which, given my accent, they appear to know that I mean "New York". If they respond with a "Yeah? Wheah?" then I tell them Brooklyn. If they respond with an even more excited "Yeah? Wheah?" then I tell them "near Ocean Parkway", since I lived "officially" in what appears to be a transitional area between Midwood, Flatbush, Boro Park, Bensonhurst, Parkville, Ditmas Park, etc.
If the person asking me is from Brooklyn or otherwise in a position to be familiar about Brooklyn, then I say Mill Basin.
If he asks where that is, I say behind Kings Plaza.
Any other part of the world I say Brooklyn.
If somebody doesn't know where that is I say New York (never city).
If somebody doesn't know where that is I say "probably Earth but I'm not sure" (hasn't happened yet).
Reading some of the responses, this is not something that's unique to NYC. Everyone in the world does this. Take me, my handle say I'm from Atlanta, but I live outside the city. Talking to someone in Atlanta, I'll say I live in Gwinnett, or as some of the radio stations say, I represent 85 North. When I go to Brazil, I say I'm going to Sao Paulo, because no one knows where Sao Bernardo do Campo is in that city.
I'm from Manhattan originally (and not from one of the ritzy parts, either). When I moved to Los Angeles years later, I'd always get that snide, "Hey....you've got an accent!" and I'd always answer, "No I don't......YOU do!". Angelinos always assumed I was from Brooklyn because I didn't have some newscaster-like patrician accent. When I told them I was from Manhattan, they often responded, "I didn't know anyone actually lived there!" Others thought I meant that I was from Manhattan Beach (a costal community in Los Angeles; many Angelinos are just as myopic as New Yorkers, refusing to believe that there is a world that exists a few hundred miles away).
As far as people from Brooklyn and Queens being more New Yorkish than Manhattanites: unfortunately, that tends to be true; However...don't hold it against us that we're (or were) Manhattanites. The problem with Manhattan is that it always had a rather severe caste system built into it. You always had the old money and the noveau riche living in places like Park Avenue or East End Avenue or around Central Park, and the working-class people who lived in places Like the Lower East Side, Hell's Kitchen, and Harlem. People are often sized up and judged by their accents, much in the way people from England brand each other.
I grew up in a lower-middle-class environment (Stuyvesant Town). I was not acepted by the kids below 14th Street, who saw me as "rich", nor the snooty people I went to Hebrew school with (who were from the Upper East Side). The Stuyvesant Town kids were an island unto themselves. Later, when I attended Stuyvesant High School, most students were commuters. Almost all of my high school friends were from Brooklyn and Queens.
I also witnessed the caste snobbery in my parent's lives. My father worked as a high-ranking civil servant and was later a city official. His ethnicity and origins (working-class Jew from Harlem) and his thick New York accent set him apart from the people brought in under the administration of John Lindsay. You could almost see the imaginary line drawn in the sand. My dad's friends and loyal colleagues were the Irish and Italian people he had grown up around. The Lindsay appointees were, for the most part, Ivy-League educated, Silk-Stocking District people who thumbed their nose down at the old guard, at least until they screwed up to the point where they needed the input from the lower-status (in their eyes) "lifers".
I may may be from Manhattan, but don't ever tell me I'm not a real New Yorker, or I'll have to kick your ass!
:-)
Depends on who I'm talking to and when.
When I was growing up, it was "upstate" to someone from the City and "Poughkeepsie" to someone from almost anywhere else.
When we lived in Chicago, it was "Rogers Park" to a Chicagoan and "Chicago" to anyone else.
When we lived in Virginia, it was "Tidewater" to someone from Richmond, "the Peninsula" to someone from Norfolk or Virginia Beach, and "Williamsburg" to anyone else - although it took some convincing for some people to believe that there actually were houses and apartments in Williamsburg, besides the restored colonial ones.
When we're talking about our North Carolina home, it's "Cypress Creek" or "Bunn" to anyone in Franklin County, "Franklin County" to folks from Raleigh, and "between Raleigh and Rocky Mount" to anyone else.
When we're talking about our New Jersey house, it's "exit 105" to a New Jerseyan, the "Jersey Coast" to someone from the City, and "Joisey" to most everyone else. And, of course, when talking to a Southerner, we simply refer to it as "the armpit of America" - no further explanation is needed, they know exactly where we're talking about.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
When we're talking about our North Carolina home, it's "Cypress Creek…"
Do you happen to work for the Globex Corporation?
No, I work for a major telecommunications company... Cypress Creek comprises the area of Franklin County east of the Tar River and south of Cedar Rock township (roughly the line drawn by NC 561 from Margaret east to the Nash County line). It has no incorporated communities (Bunn, which I use as a reference point, is actually west of the Tar River in Dunn township - it's just the nearest town, and where we get our mail), although there are several crossroads (the largest being Seven Paths) and a developing area known as Lake Royale.
I assume there's a hidden meaning in the Globex reference?
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Globex is a company run by Hank Scorpio that build a planned community called Cypress Creek for its employees. Cypress Creek is a pleasant community with a Hammock District on Third and mailboxes instead of bums.
Scorpio is the arch-villain that took over the East Coast a few years back. He also bought the Denver Broncos and gave it to a former employee from Springfield.
Is Poughkeepsie "upstate"? I think of Upstate as being, like, Albany and west and north of there.
I wonder where someone from Albany or Syracuse would consider Poughkeepsie?
Before I left NYC, I thought anything north of the Bronx was upstate!
I'll bet my friends in Rouses Point don't think that Poughkeepsie is upstate!
Is Poughkeepsie "upstate"? I think of Upstate as being, like, Albany and west and north of there.
To the extent that "Upstate" can be defined in a technical, non-anecdotal manner, it would include the counties that are not part of the New York CMSA. North of the city, the counties within the CMSA (and therefore not Upstate) are Westchester, Rockland, Orange, Putnam and Dutchess. Poughkeepsie is of course part of Dutchess County and therefore is not Upstate.
North of the city, the counties within the CMSA ... are Westchester, Rockland, Orange, Putnam and Dutchess.
That's true today, but wasn't when I was growing up there in the '50s and '60s.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Not so fast ... I have friends that live in Monroe, NY (Orange County) and many of my city friends refer to them as being "upstate". I don't agree with the CMSA assessment at all.
And to this day my parents will tell friends or associates that they'ree "visiting their son upstate, and I live in northern Rockland County.
Ask this question to 1000 people; you'll get 1000 different answers.
--Mark
But with more and more people who WORK in the city moving up here, its becoming less and less 'upstate';I remember telling people down in the city whee I was from, and they would just look strangely at you [Middletown? Wheres that??]NOW it seems that everyone has a cousin that has moved up here,or a co-worker, etc....especially firemen and cops....AND MTA workers [to put this sort of on topic!]:my cousins house,for example, was bought by a NYCTA station agent.
But with more and more people who WORK in the city moving up here, its becoming less and less 'upstate';I remember telling people down in the city whee I was from, and they would just look strangely at you [Middletown? Wheres that??]NOW it seems that everyone has a cousin that has moved up here,or a co-worker, etc....especially firemen and cops....AND MTA workers [to put this sort of on topic!]:my cousins house,for example, was bought by a NYCTA station agent.
It's not surprising that many transit workers would move to distant suburbs. For the most part, they don't work "normal" business hours and therefore can take advantage of off-hours commuting.
The freakiest thing is finding multiple copies of The Middletown Times Herald-Record on the subway....
North of the city, the counties within the CMSA ... are Westchester, Rockland, Orange, Putnam and Dutchess.
That's true today, but wasn't when I was growing up there in the '50s and '60s.
The Census Bureau seems to have a policy of expanding CMSA's, to encompass areas once considered beyond the core city's sphere of influence. It's probably not a bad idea, all things considered, as it reflects economic and demographic reality to some extent. Increased housing prices and the dispersal of jobs into suburban and exurban areas are the main factors. For instance, Dutchess County is said to be attracting new residents on account of its housing prices, which are more reasonable than those in closer suburbs. While commuting times from much of the county to the city are long, they're not so bad for people working, for example, in Westchester. Parts of the Poconos have attracted New Yorkers for the same reasons. These areas may seem remote with respect to the city, but they aren't necessarily so remote for people working in New Jersey. These trends occur in other parts of the country as well.
Of course, the northern New York counties in question - Rockland, Orange, Putnam and Dutchess - all have commuter rail service to the city (or at least Hoboken).
Cities have always expanded. It has always been mainly because of population increases. What do you think causes the closer in suburbs to become too expensive for some?
My opinion on the matter: Upstate begins with Putnam and Orange Counties. Therefore Dowstate is New York City, Nassau, Suffolk, Westchester, and Rockland counties. Upstate is everything but.
Of course, that depends heavily on point of view.
:-) Andrew
Mount Vernon? :0)
Larry Gelbart did a parody of the old Warner Bros. double features about 20 years ago, called "Movie Movie" in which part of one plot involved a character having to go away upstate -- upstate in this case being New Rochelle. I doubt the gag went over outside the tri-state area.
When my father took me to New Rochelle in 1969, there were still farms everywhere. It really felt like another world.
Not anymore, obviously.
But thanks to a lot of dedicated people, the Nature Conservancy, the local chapters of Sierra Club, former governors and yes, even Gov. Pataki (he helped save Sterling Forest, among other achievements), New York State has more green space in it, proportionally and otherwise, than many other states in the Union...
Did you know that the LARGEST PARK in the Continetal 48 states is in New York State?
Did you know that you have more people in Manhattan, south of Canal Street, than we have in the whole state of North Dakota?
Elias
Since North Dakota is MORE populated than Alaska, that means that more people live south of Canal than in the largest state by land area.
Today, upstate would have to be fifty miles north of Route 84. Of course, in past times Commodore Vanderbilt was considered crazy building Grand Central so far uptown, and the Dakota apartment building in 1884 got its name becuase it was so far up north it might have been in the Dakota territory. Times do change.
There are some that would put "upstate" as anything north of 96th Street ... and folks up here would say anything from Dutchess and Ulster south would be "metro area" ... but in general, I'd say you're right. Strictly speaking though, anything in the "MTA taxation" zones would qualify as far as the state is concerned so you'd end up including Dutchess, Ulster, Columbia and Rensselaer counties as "downstate" also since they pay MTA taxes. We don't in Albany county but the only way out of here is Gray running mutt bus lines ...
(Ulster, Columbia and Rensselaer counties as "downstate" also since they pay MTA taxes).
Correction: MTA taxes stop at Orange and Dutchess. These can be considered either Downstate (some commuters in some areas) or Upstate (mostly rural).
After the last census, both Orange and Dutchess were part of the New York CMSA. Like all CMSAs, New York was divided into component PMSAs. One included Nassau and Suffolk. Another included New York City, Westchester, Rockland and Putnam. Dutchess and Orange were each separate PMSAs in the NY CMSA. They were after 1970 and 1980 as well.
Everything else is considered "Upstate" by everyone except the Regional Plan Association, which includes Ulster, Sullivan, and Hartford! counties in the NY Metro Area. And the BEA "economic areas," which place much of Vermont, all of Connecticut, and a good chunk of Pennslyvania in New York's orbit.
BTW, MTA taxes for Columbia are a big issue. People there want MTA service for second homeowners, but are unwilling to pay the tax. They are demanding something for nothing, and hoping NYC can be made to pay. The MTA wants to extend the Hudson line to Rhinecliff, but Rhinebeck residents don't want it, because it might attract the lesser people. The City of Hudson wants it, but is outside the MTA area. Etc, etc.
I sit corrected then ... last I heard, Greene county (because of the Hudson stop) and Columbia and Rensselaer (because of the coming high speed commuter to NYC) were going to be added to MTA taxes (Ulster because of Poughkeepsie across the river) according to something I read a while back in the Albany Times Union ... I threw those in because they were at least proposed ...
But a lot of people in the city think anything north of the Bronx is Canada. :)
I was right! Mount Vernon is in Saskatchewan (sp) !!
--Mark
Actually, Northwest Territories, but you've got it right. Heh.
Hudson is in Columbia County. Columbia is east of the Hudson River (part of NYSDOT region 8, but that's another story.) Greeene County is to the west (NYSDOT Reg. 1.)
:-) Andrew
Howdy ... when I referred to Greene county vs. Hudson, has to do with the wily mindset of how taxation works up here. Greene county residents get to pay MTA tax because there's a bridge between Catskill and Hudson so it is assumed that the farmers in Greene county commute to Manhattan on the train to rotate their crops ... that was the basis for the connection I made there. Albany county is right north of Greene, so we consider those kids "downstaters" ... heh.
But Columbia isn't in the MTA service area either. Duthcess is as far north as Metro-North goes. And I'm pretty sure it dosen't include Ulster either, even though parts of it are close to Poughkeepsie.
:-) Andrew
Manhattan, Brooklyn, Queens, Richmond, Bronx, Nassau, Suffolk, Westchester, Rockland, Orange, Putnam and Dutchess make up the MTA district and corporations doing business there (except for S corporations) get to pay the 17% surtax. Everone else is exempt.
Again, this is a proposed EXPANSION of the MTA tax district which would (eventually) include the Hudson line all the way to Rensselaer and Albany (to pay for "Empire Corridor service") ... apparently the politicos are planning to extend from Po'town to at LEAST Hudson as part of Metro North ... I admit I haven't paid all that much attention to the details that were proposed as I have no real reason to want to go to NYC now that Disney's taken over 42 St ...
But yes, right now, Poughkeepsie is the end of the MTA district for the moment ...
Actually, Columbia is in Region 1...trust me, I wound up using the Region 8 part of our operating authority (Dutchess) to get our brand new ambulette inspected when the Region 1 folks said that it "would never pass" because it had a stretcher!
Check the NYSDOT reference markers (on state highways.) Columbia County is represented on the second line as county "81". You might be thinking of DMV regions.
A complete list (from memory, believe it or not!):
Region 1 Capital District/Eastern Adirondacks
11-Albany
12-Essex
13-Greene
14-Rensaleer
15-Saratoga
16-Schenectady
17-Warren
18-Washington
Region 2 Mohawk Valley/Western Adirondacks
21-Fulton
22-Hamilton
23-Herkimer
24-Madison
25-Montgomery
26-Oneida
Region 3 Syracuse/Eastern Finger Lakes
31-Cayuga
32-Cortland
33-Onondaga
34-Oswego
35-Seneca
36-Tompkins
Region 4 Rochester/Genesse/Western Finger Lakes
41-Genesse
42-Livingston
43-Monroe
44-Ontario
45-Orleans
46-Wyoming
47-Wayne*
Region 5 Buffalo/Niagara Frontier
51-Cattaragus
52-Chautauqua
53-Erie
54-Niagara
Region 6 Southern Tier
61-Allegany
62-Chemung
63-Schyler
64-Steuben
65-Tioga
66-Yates
Region 7 Watertown/North Country
71-Clinton
72-Franklin
73-Jefferson
74-Lewis
75-Saint Lawrence
Region 8 Hudson Valley
81-Columbia
82-Dutchess
83-Orange
84-Putnam
85-Rockland
86-Ulster
Region 9 Binghamton/Central/Western Catskills
91-Broome
92-Chenango
93-Delaware
94-Otsego
95-Schoharie
96-Sulivan
Region 10 Long Island
03-Nassau
07-Suffolk**
Region 11 New York City
X1-Bronx
X2-Kings
X4-New York
X5-Queens
X6-Richmond***
NOTES
*Wayne County used to part of Region 3, thus the slightly off alphabetical listing in Region 4.
**Long Island and New York City used to be a single region, 10, thus the missing numbers in each region.
***In NYC, the number 11 is represented by "X".
:-) Andrew
WHOOPS! I missed "87", which is Westchester.
:-) Andrew
You left out Westchester County which I think begins with 87.
BMTJeff
Using county lines to demarcate CMSA's is necessarily somewhat imprecise. Development and commuting patterns, not to mention spheres of economic influence, frequently don't follow county lines. For instance, the southern part of Dutchess County, up to and including Poughkeepsie, can reasonably be considered part of the New York CMSA, but the case is considerably weaker with respect to the northern part. But the Census Bureau doesn't recognize any borders other than county lines (except possibly in New England), so all of Dutchess is included.
The most extreme example can be found in California, where the Los Angeles CMSA includes all of Riverside and San Bernardino counties, nothwithstanding the fact that both huge counties include long stretches of desert all the way to Arizona and Nevada.
Connecticut and Rhode Island don't exactly have counties, or at least not county government. Fairfield, Litchfiled, New Haven, etc. are all "counties" in name, but have no government except maybe regional divisions of state services. The next real government under the state is the town or city.
:-) Andrew
Massachusetts too.
Alaska doesn't have counties at all. There are boroughs which are similar to counties elsewhere, but 2/3s of the state is not in any borough.
In Louisiana, they're called parishes.
In Virginia, cities are independent of counties. So are Baltimore, MD and St. Louis, MO but there are counties elsewhere in the state.
In Hawaii, the county is the lowest unit of government, there are no municipalities.
In many states (like New York), when a city controls an entire county, the county exists only on paper and the municipality would be a City and County.
Well, in New York there are four town-villages (Harrison, Scarsdale, and Mt. Kisco in Westchester and something in Albany County also, I forget) where the entire township is taken up by an incorporated Village, and the town exists mainly on paper. (I think it's considered a combined form of government.)
The only city in New York State that takes up a whole county takes up five whole counties. Which city is that again? I think it's near Lake Success or something? ;-)
:-) Andrew
There used to be a City and County of New York and City of Brooklyn, County of Kings.
Now THAT's a name. City of Brooklyn, county of KINGS. Not some new inferior version of a stuffy British city.
Some people consider "Upstate" New York to be north of Rockland and Westchester counties. Others might consider "Upstate" New York to begin north of the Hudson Valley region.
BMTJeff
(Using county lines to demarcate CMSA's is necessarily somewhat imprecise. Development and commuting patterns, not to mention spheres of economic influence, frequently don't follow county lines.)
I agree, and perhaps that's why Dutchess and Orange can be considered Upstate or Downstate depending on how you look at it. "Downstate" continues to spread, however.
Many people consider anything north of Westchester and Rockland counties to be "Upstate" New York. Others might consider "Upstate" New York to be anything north of the Hudson Valley. Where "Upstate" New York begins depends upon your viewpoint.
BMTJeff
Yeah, this is a relative term. Basically, since the bulk of the state is far to the north of the "Lower Hudson Valley" (where the straight NY/PA tuens south), then this whole triangular shaped area is "downstate". But when we used to go camping in Orange Co., or top Bear Mtn, etc. we called it "upstate", because it is "up" on a map from us. This area is right across the river and Tappan-Zee Bridge from northern Westchester, so that gets called "Westchester" also. (one of the guys we were posting with is from Hartsdale, and called that "upstate".
Yonkers, New Rochelle, Mt. Vernon, and the Pelhams are efinitely too close to NY, and too linked to the Bronx and transit, and too urban to be considered "upstate" in any view. I was in Tuckahoe last week, and that seems like borderline in its atmosphere, and I guess the Scarsdale area would be the same. The Elmsford area and Hartsdale, as I just mentioned, get called "upstate" a lot. White Plains, in the same area seems to urban to be called upstate, though. (Albany is bigger, but White Plains is still very connected to the NYC area. Anything past that can safely be called "upstate", as it is very similar to the Catskill area-- alot of woods, camps, small towns, etc. But once again, from further up, it is still all going to be seen as "downstate".
It seems kind of hard to picture Buffalo as "upstate" because it is so much more West than north of here. So that's more like "overstate" or "outerstate". "Upstate-Downstate" seems to apply more to the Hudson river corridor.
Anything north of 262nd Street.......
I agree with you that "Upstate New York" begins with the areas north of Westchester and Rockland counties. Some city dwellers however consider upstate New York anywhere north of New York City. A few purists might consider upstate New York to begin north of Sullivan, Ulster and Dutchess counties or anywhere north of the Hudson Valley.
BMTJeff
Clearly, Upstate begins at Gun Hill Road.
Equally clear: everything west of the Delaware River is an "Assorted Mid-West State"!
Well, though I disagree with the former, I will say that western New York pretty much is the midwest (I'd start that a little further west than the Delaware River though. Myabe the Finger Lakes.)
:-) Andrew
>>> Clearly, Upstate begins at Gun Hill Road. <<<
That's understandable for those who lived in my East Side neighborhood, since that was the northern terminus of the 3rd Avenue El. The more adventurous of us went as far as 241st Street on the White Plains Line. Anything north of that was clearly "upstate."
Of course "upstate" was really a more nebulous concept to most of us. We knew it contained such places as Ossining and Dannemora, but not necessarily where they were physically located. The term would be used in a sentence like "Joey's gonna be upstate for two more years." :-)
Tom
My take: Upstate New York refers to the part of New York State (outside Long Island) that does not maintain close ties (in terms of commutes, etc.) with NYC. That means that, in general, any area served by commuter rail to NYC is out. Rockland County is not upstate. (Port Jervis may be an exception; I'd consider it borderline upstate.) I'd say that most of Orange isn't upstate either. Newburgh is borderline. Ulster is definitively upstate.
The NY 17 corridor presents a difficulty. Many New Yorkers spend weekends in Sullivan County (moreso in the past than today), but otherwise the area isn't really connected to NYC. I guess I'd call it upstate-with-a-footnote. The part of Sullivan closer to the Delaware is clearly upstate. And Delaware County seems more upstateish than most counties to its north and west.
My take: Upstate New York refers to the part of New York State (outside Long Island) that does not maintain close ties (in
terms of commutes, etc.) with NYC ... The NY 17 corridor presents a difficulty. Many New Yorkers spend weekends in Sullivan County (moreso in the past than today), but otherwise the area isn't really connected to NYC. I guess I'd call it upstate-with-a-footnote.
Litchfield County, Connecticut presents a similar situation. If it were in New York State, I suppose it would be another example of Upstate-with-a-footnote.
In 1982, New York State started a "temporary" surcharge on corporations called the MTA Surcharge. I put it in quotes becuase originally, it was supposed to be for only two years to close a budget surplus, and it still exists today, with no sign of going away. It affects 12 counties in the MTA district (wherever Metro North and LIRR service riders). The 12 counties are the 5 boroughs, Nassau and Suffolk on L.I., Westchester, Rockland, Dutchess, Putnam and Orange.
I guess you can officially call anything north of that "upstate" however, Sullivan County is still fairly close. Let's call the number of downstate counties 13* with the rest being upstate. There may be some who consider upstate only north of Albany, but at that rate, there will be no more upstate New York.
The MTA district is 12 counties. What's the 13th? You never defined your asterisk.
AHEM....We [meaning Orange Co..but especially us in the Middletown-Goshen axis] USED to be upstate..now we consider ourselves part of the metro area...Upstate generally to us means anything north/west of Monticello/Liberty these days..You would be surprised how many people live up in the Monticello/Liberty area drive down 17 to take the train from Middletown...
For many NYers it begins at 86th Street. And that's why there's....
www.forgotten-ny.com
Now that's a little nuts. I disagree with "anything north of the city", but I understand it. But this---all of the Bronx and geographically almost half of Manhattan Island? Upstate?
:-) Andrew
86th Street is the middle of Manhattan.
Yes. It is. Though most people think of Manhattan as ending (for all practical purposes) arround 96th St, it in fact reaches 218th St on Manhattan Island and 228th St with Marble Hill. HOWEVER, the island and borough start to narrow out quite a bit north of 125th St, with Amsterdam (10th) Ave forming the eastern flank by the 170's. So I would say that Manhattan north of 86th is probably less than half the area of the island.
:-) Andrew
Anything above 14th Street....
From the Downstate area, yes, Putnam and Orange counties and beyond are consider the upstate regions. Some might say that that is changing as Putnam, Dutchess and Orange are becoming more and more suburban counties of NYC.
As a New Yorker who lived for years in Buffalo, I can say that as far as residents of Western New York are concerned, Downstate likely is everything south of the Catskill Mountains.
Nestled here between the Catskills and the Adirondacks (Mohawk valley) I'd say that's the most widely accepted reality outside the five boroughs (and pretenders who bought a house in Scarsdale) ...
Easy. Upstate begins with Kings, Richmond, Bronx, and Queens are upstate, and so is everything beyond them.
If there's any green space, it's upstate.
So what...Upstate is everything but Manhattan now? That includes Long Isalnd? And Staten Island is as far south as you can go in NYS.
:-) Andrew
Central Park is green. Does that make the expresses to the Bronx commuter rail? Heh.
To out-of-staters: New York, or New York City. Sometimes I explicitly use the former to test their awareness of the rest of the state.
To in-staters: New York City, or (where the context is clear) the City.
To NYCers: Manhattan, or the Upper West Side, depending on how specific an answer I think they're seeking. If probed further I'll give street coordinates. (Through this procedure I once discovered that I had been introducing myself to the mother of a high school classmate -- long after we had graduated and about 230 miles away. "Oh, you live in the large building at [insert street corner]? Do you know [so and so]?" "Yes, he's my son.")
If not in New York, I say "Brooklyn". If in New York, I say "BAy Ridge". Now, I used to live in Dyker Heights, but nobody knows where that is, so I'd say "Bay Ridge", even tho. it's on the other side of the approach to the Verrazano.
This Morning. At 7:25 AM
As my Bus was getting off the I-95 at Exit 15 in New Rochelle. I saw Acela train and it did not any passengers in there and it was going SLOW!! About 25 MPH that train did when I saw it. The Moterman car # is #2015. The train looks nice!!
Two Acela trainsets bypassed eachother at 6:45pm Friday
near City Island/Orchard Beach Bridge.. Made
for quite an interesting visual from the 14th floor
When the Metroliners first ran scheduled service, a friend of mine took his super 8 movie camera to a spot where he calculated 2 of them should meet if they were on time. He got a great movie of 2 Metroliners passing in opposite directions.
The power car you saw might be 2019, instead of 2015, because 2015 has not entered Amtrak property yet.
Chaohwa
SEPTA is shuttle bussing between 63rd & 69th st. terminal. This is happening at a bad time. I bet they run short of rush hour trains as many come from 69th st. The delay is due to power problems.
Chuck Greene
i seen the 108 bus as one one of the shuttle
They were shuttling between 15th St and 69th St all weekend.
--Mark
That will be in effect for some time, as they are upgrading the signal
system in that stretch. They are doing it on weekends to have less effect on the "riding public".
Chuck Greene
It will continue throughout the summer and is merely a preview of what will happen when the reconstruction of the El begins possibly next year. SEPTA had a mix of over 40 buses in this service on 3 minute and less headways. After a fiasco on the first weekend, the operation in Center City was revised to loop via 15th, Walnut and 20th (rather than around City Hall) due to confusion at 15th & Kennedy. For some reason, the shuttles were not all articulated buses, as I had heard was planned.
Complicating this to some degree is the current short-route situation on Route 10 with cars ending at 40th & Market due to trackwork on Lancaster Ave east of 38th St. Thus, all 10 riders must use the El from there. This will also get worse during the summer when the entire line is out.
A crossover is supposed to be installed west of 40th St to permit El operation to that point, reducing the shuttle bus mileage and removing it from the busiest portions of Market St (Center City and the 30th St Station area).
Thanks for the update, Bob. Sounds like a real mess for quite a while, but a permanent improvement for the future!
Chuck Greene
WMATA has proposed extensions to the Metro subway system, including a line to Georgetown and other crosstown service. Below is a link to the Washington Post's article:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A36227-2001May2.html
perhaps the most interesting nugget for those of us with some contempt for the regressive fare carpeted, way too cute systems is >>Just 19 percent of Metro's 103-mile system of track and stations is in downtown Washington, but that small chunk handles about 60 percent of the 600,000 daily trips made on the subway.<<
so much for long distance riders must be enticed by cushy seats and inadequate doors. One can only hope the geniuses at MTA can learn from this AND BUILD 2nd AVE AS FOUR TRACKS.
Couldn't they make like the Chicago north side El and build express tracks on the outside of the local ?
If you look at a map of Metro, the 19% of route mileage is almost all tunnel trackage downtown(caveat, this may be slightly off, but even the above ground section of the Red line north of Union Station is constrained by the parralel CSX (B&O) mainline.) If you read the entire WashPost article, the basic flaw becomes clear--lack of track capacity, exacerbated by poor car design. While you may appreciate soft seats, the fact is that for short hops downtown the real chokepoint is getting on/off the trains. If they had enough cars and were able to fully deploy 8 car trains in rush, things might improve for a while.
WAMTA had a booth at the Tysons Corner Mall with its intended extension. The priority is a extension or branch out to Dullas Airport hopefully finished by 2010
Washington DC is going to start experiencing what New York has - as the network gets larger, WMATA has to reinvest in its core even as it expands. This is due to its success.
A friend of mine who works in the federal govt. tells me the construction of the Blue Line Extension to Largo Town Center is well under way. Do we know how close to completion it is?
The article states that $2.2 billion will be expected to pay for 23 miles of track to Dulles. That is about $95 million per mile. It seems a bit optimistic, unless all the track is on surface ROW requiring little in the way of tunnelling or elevated structure, and I'm assuming this is largely going to be an express line with no stations besides the airport terminal(since stations are the most expensive aspect of mass transit construction).
WMATA holds a big advantage: This is our nation's capitol, and other posters have noted that WMATA, as a result, is generously supplied with capital funds compared with other transit agencies.
Inside the city, I believe a lot of people will be receptive to new service (even if it takes five years to blast a new tunnel), but it will be interesting to see how they deal with the Georgetown NIMBYs.
Well, Bravo for them. Whenever I visit DC, I always ride Metro.
Inside the city, I believe a lot of people will be receptive to new service (even if it takes five years to blast a new tunnel), but it will be interesting to see how they deal with the Georgetown NIMBYs.
The Georgetown NIMBYs have become YIMBYs. Now that they see that the Metro is an national treasure, they want it BAD!
What? A NIMBY converting to a YIMBY?
Is this a miracle (or perhaps the result of a successful exorcism)? Incredible! Stupendous! I say we call for a national holiday honoring recovered ex-NIMBYs.
Funny you should mention exorcism..."The Exorcist" book and movie take place mostly in Georgetown...the McNeil household overlooks the Francis Scott Key bridge, and yes that long flight of steps is still there.
Hey, I'm psychic :0)
Back to the extension, there was a article in one of the DC/Virginia Papers, tating that a Congressmen in the area, wants to run a bus way instead of the subway, sort of like the one they have in Sao Pablo Brazil,and build the subway extension later. There was too much opposition. The plan is to branch off the ORANGE LINE, either at Falls Church or West Falls Church, build 4 stations including one at Tysons Corners, then 3 more in Reston, Herndon and at the airport. eventually maybe even all the way out to Leesburg. They predict about 40K a day will use the new line,. but only 10 will go to the airport. They expect it to open between 2010-2012.
I believe the Dulles extension is going to paralell the tollway to the airport, which has available land for the rail ROW. I would imagine there will be at least one or two stations, like at the Route 28 crossing of the tollway near Sterling, since like most other areas of suburban D.C., the section going towards the airport also has boomed in population over the last 20 years.
Sounds reasonable. I don't think they'll deliver it for $2.2 billion, though. My guess is, esp. with multiple stations, the cost will go to over $3 billion.
If I were living there, I'd still want it - and there's a good chance they'll get it.
Our friends live near Reston, Va. and would love to see a new line built near them. He presently drives to Vienna on the Orange Line and it's crowded at rush hour.
When are cityfolk going to wise up and realize that heavy rail transit
will save them from mass gridlock? Long live mass transit!
Chuck Greene
All hail mass transit! (and now we play our national anthem).
Just try and get a parking space at the Vienna Metro station parking area after 7:45 a.m. It's like trying to drive across 34th Street at 60 mph on a Friday afternoon rush hour. A non-stop service from Falls Church to Dulles would be loved by airport passengers, but there are just too many people living in between the two places to justify it.
Well, I take it Metro has no plans to build four tracks out that far (to provide both local and express service to Dulles). Of course that would also mean more rolling stock, and then those trains coming back to DC would have to merge from two inbound tracks back to one. Not to mention a higher price tag.
With a split at Tyson's corner, that means Metro will have to seriously consider the bypass around the current Blue/Orange route through D.C., and possibly even around the Rosslyn station in Arlington, or they will run into the same problem the MTA has with the A train split between Lefferts and Far Rockaway -- one line (Orange and the A) with two terminals, then merging with a third line (the Blue/Orange at Rosslyn and the A/C at Hoyt-Schermerhorn) which limits TPH to each specific terminal.
The other option would be, of course, to cut the number of Orange and Blue lines trains on their current routes to give the Dulles route the needed tunnel space, but with the growth all around Northern Virginia, that's just asking for trouble down the line.
I agree with your logic. Let's see what they do.
2010-12 is the target date for opening
It will not be non stop. If they want non stop service there is the airport bus. As I stated there will be 4 stops between The Orange Line at either Falls Church or West Falls Church. They will be at Tysons Corners probably by the Mall, Then over to the Tollway Reston Pky in Reston, FairfaxCounty Pkwy in Herndon, and Rt 128 ath the edge of the airport and then the airport. Maps were in Local papers Sunday, most lilely the Post
Blue Line to Largo groundbreaking is this Tuesday. In otherwords, no construction yet.
Thank you for correcting my misimpression. But congratulations to you in DC for reaching a groundbreaking (eg the line is going to happen).
There is also talk of extending the Orange Line to Centreville with stops at Rte. 123, Fair Oaks/Fair Lakes and somewhere around Rte. 28/29. They have the ROW available and since its above ground, it wont be too difficult, however, the funding for that extension is on the backburner until the extension to Dulles is complete. BRT (Bus Rapid Transit) will start first and then be converted to rail along the Dulles Access Road.
Even though funding (and public support) is there, Metro will have to be careful to make sure that specific expansions are matched to funding so these projects actually get done.
And as Metro gets larger, WMATA's management will need to use their savvy, their lobbying skills etc. to make sure the maintenance and State of Good Repair capital budgets keep up. It will take a long time before Washington DC approaches NY in terms of size of subway and commuter rail, but they're already seeing the effects of expansion - larger system? More maintenance, more reinvestment needed.
What the State of Virginia has to do, is plan for VRE Extensions. 2 lines to manassas and Fredericksburg does not do it. Traffice is the pits.
From what I understand, VRE doesn't operate around the clock - it's only a rush hour service. Is that true?
Hello,
I wonder if anyone could give me a hand finding, models of NYC model subway kits and trains. I am form London England , and I'm having problems tracking down info on this subject.
Please can anyone help???
Thank you
Will
What scale are you lookig for? I'm sure many of us can help you.
Thank you for your response Train Dude.
I'm not sure really, thats why I was enquiring.
Do U.S. models come in similar scales as the U.K?
(What are the usual scales?)
I kinda want a large scale model, maybe 1:20 scale.
Any suggestions would be greatly apreciated.
Thanks once more,
Will
1:20 is large by US standards. I'd assune it's G scale or close to it. If you are willing to go to 1:48 scale, MTH makes some great operating subway cars in both New York City and Chicago Subway System models. I own both sets of MTH R-42 sets and love the way they perform. In a few weeks MTH will deliver their 3rd set (the R-21 redbirds) which will be much closer to actual scale size. Currently, Ebay has one such set for sale at:
( http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1139863032 )
You can expect to pay $300 or more for the earlier sets and I suspect the new ones will also sell above list price except for us who have pre-ordered.
Good luck with your search
You might want to check further on this website. Go to "Transfer Station", then "Models, Merchandise, and Software", then "Subway Models".
Most of the stuff out there is in HO or N scale, is unfinished and unpowered, is sold in very limited quantities, and is quite expensive.
The HO and N offerings from Image Replicas and Collectors Corner can be optionally purchased painted and detailed at a higher cost. Relatively speaking, most of their products are moderately priced.
MTS Imports sells superbly detailed (mostly brass) models in HO scale (and occasionaly O-scale) but their costs are VERY high.
Q-Car produced a model of an R-17 car that is intricately detailed, but you must assemble it and paint it. IHP relased an R-33 on a limited run in O-scale that also required good modelling skills.
Not listed on this site are the MTH subway cars. These are reasonably-priced two and four car sets of O-gauge trains (they can run on regular 3-rail, Lionel layouts). So far, they've sold two sets of R-42 models (a D train with the blue stripe, and an all-silver E train), and in two weeks, they're releasing an R-21 "Redbird" set. In the Fall, they will be releasing a more expensive, scale version of a pre-GOH R-32 car. Supposedly they plan more subway offerings in the future
Two weeks, ago, I visted the Rockaway line just before all the leaves started to fill in (as they have now). I got a bunch of photos which are on my site at http://www.trainweb.org/nyrail/lirr/rockaway/rockaway.html.
Please give me any comments or suggestions.
-Dan
www.trainweb.org/nyrail
If it wasn't for that third rail, I've could have sworn that was the abandoned R-8 Newtown route. Anyhoo, that would make a great subway line.
Tell me more about that.
Are you referring to the R8 Fox Chase Line (that is, track beyond Fox Chase)? Do you know why it was abandoned (was there no ridership?)?
That's what I'm referring to, and the reason of abandonment was the line wasn't electrified. If reopened, SEPTA would not only have to electrify it, they would have to double-track and either build an overpass or underpass where it meets the R-3. That would take some cash.
So, if I understand you correctly, the R3 and R8 currently have a rail intersection governed by signals or by a control tower, yes?
And I deduce from your answer that low ridership would not be a reason to abandon the line. Am I correct?
It would have a control tower (I think it did), but the intersection was removed. And with SEPTA, low ridership is hardly ever the reason to abandon the line (there were suggestions to convert the R-6 Ivy Ridge to an extension of The Route 10 trolley line) but they have abondoned the line north of Cynwyd (try saying that), so to offset that, SEPTA built a station at Ivy Ridge on The R-6 NORRISTOWN portion. And please, don't ask me questions why a SEPTA paired up two routes that meet each other after the tunnel opened, because I don't know why myself, and where's the logic to that either.
The Manayunk Bridge is currently being rehabilitated (repair crews, cranes and cement trucks are visible on the bridge). SEPTA states that the bridge is not structurally safe for Silverliner consists and would like to introduce a new service (the Schuylkill Valley Metro) on that route.
I am leading an effort to bring the R6 station in Manayunk up to ADA standards. With the phenomenal growth in the area, that kind of station upgrade is sorely needed.
Restoring service on the Cynwyd-Ivy Ridge portion would be useful. The Bala-Cynwyd shopping area (supermarkets, dept. stores, drug stores, hardware, you name it) is just a few minutes ride from Ivy Ridge and Manayunk - but now you need a car to get there (or are willing to hoof it a ways).
SEPTA would not only have to electrify it, they would have to double-track and either build an overpass or underpass where it meets the R-3.
They wouldn't be necessary. Service on the R8 would be infrequent enough so that an interlocked diamond crossing wouldn't really tiw up either line.
Fascinating photos. Next month marks the 39th anniversaryu of the year it was abandoned (June 1962).
To think it easily could have been just about be back in service now were it not for that damned Airtrain.
"To think it easily could have been just about be back in service now were it not for that damned Airtrain."
In a Subtalk world, maybe. Not in real life. And that had nothing to do with AirTrain.
The NIMBY crowd living in the area where that line is were opposed to it being re-opened, so that is why it is a weed covered hangout for drug using cretins and not being used for a connection to the airport, which would save money for other projects.
"The NIMBY crowd living in the area where that line is were opposed to it being re-opened, so that is why it is a weed covered
hangout for drug using cretins and not being used for a connection to the airport, which would save money for other projects."
Doc,
I agree with you that the ROW currently contributes nothing but problems to New Yorkers. What you describe about it is disgraceful, certainly. And NIMBYism is alive and well in the area (but not necessarily representing the majority viewpoint), unfortunately, and I have little sympathy for most of them.
But you're missing a lot of pieces to this puzzle.
1) In the first place, AirTrain and LIRR are funded from separate pots of money, collected from much different sources (MTA uses bond/tax money; PA uses PFT collected from airline passengers and already deposited in the bank). While the PA has some discretion to invest in MTA projects (and may contribute a little something to East Side Access), in general, one agency not pursuing something does not save money for the other. The savings you describe do not exist. Now, I should point out that MTA could, theoretically, rebuild and open the Rockaway Line to service anyway. MTA doesn't need the PA's permission to do that. It was not a pure "either or" situation. The PA would have had to cooperate to bring an airport circulator to meet the trains, however.
2) Even if you banished all the usual idiot NIMBYs to Outer Nimberia where they belong (Nimberia will have subways and LIRR when hell freezes over), MTA would still have the problem that the Rockaway Line passes within 50 feet of some people's homes, requiring extensive reconstruction, sound-proofing and other work to make rail service tenable. I'm not against it, but the work involved is not trivial, much harder than a lot of people are willing to believe. Further, the ROW is in so much disrepair that MTA would probably have to rip much of the infrastructure out and start fresh - that adds to the cost. Again, I'm not against it per se - but I'm illustrating for you what confronts the agency, esp. given competing priorities in the not unlimited Capital Plan, and ought not to be dismissed as a mere detail by the wave of one's hand. Would you tell patients a liver transplant is "just an operation" and not sweat the details?
3) There have been many threads on this issue before. Prominent in them are references to the situation wherein 2 tunnels serve three railroads crossing the East River for either revenue service, transit to service yards, or both. Adding direct airport service on the LIRR to Manhattan has been determined by MTA staff to be infeasible because of this, and I, for one, fully agree. This situation will change when the LIRR's 63rd St tunnel to Grand Central opens for business (the East Side Access project) in the 2010-12 time frame. Now, if MTA had spent the money instead building the LIRR Rockaway Line, and not completed the 63rd St commuter rail tunnel, then we would really be screwed, because all LIRR schedules would be affected by yet one more train squeezing into those two tunnels. Instead, MTA is doing the right thing. They are spending money opening a third tunnel under the East River, so trains don't have to spend as much time stopped dead in front of the East River and wait their turns to enter the tunnels - which is what happens too frequently now (hey, I've been on those trains). When that new tunnel opens, and money is available to pour into the LIRR Rockaway Line, then we can revisit that issue. The line could be a great resource.
To be fair, there were suggestions that the LIRR Rockaway/Airport Line operate to Woodside or Jamaica only, not to Manhattan, and the presence of six or more tracks would eliminate the "traffic jam" concerns at the tunnels. But you could still end up killing East Side Access or the Second Avenue subway, or the "7" extension to Javits etc.) in the Capital Plan, and a lot of people with an interest in those projects are not going to let anybody do that.
I've seen advocacy for this line motivated by hatred of the PA, by a closed-minded attitude about the employment of any new transit technologies. Yes, have my own biases, like anyone else, but I think I've shown why the MTA's refusal to consider the Rockaway Line at this time is not unreasonable.
There is yet another alternative - and I do not favor it, but I will mention it for completeness. MTA could remove all the Rockaway LIRR infrastructure, do a complete environmental cleanup of the area, and turn over the land for parks, green space, bike trails and for environmentally-sustainable recreational/retailing activities.
Of course the NIMBYs would try to kill that too. They clearly prefer drug addict-infested junkyards.
Your answer is well appreciated, and I thank you for your insights. I just wish that the powers that be would get together and come up with a cost effective, efficient, and meaningful plan to increase service, minimize delays, and improve the quality of life for you and me, the riding public. I wish that the 63rd st. LIRR tunnel would get into operation sooner, but there are some things that you wish for but cannot have. As for that unused ROW, it has to be cleaned up and used for something, lest some terrible event occur and then the NIMBY crowd starts to yell that something should have been done in the first place. Again, thanks for your insights.
You're welcome.
There is yet another alternative - and I do not favor it, but I will mention it for completeness. MTA could remove all the Rockaway LIRR infrastructure, do a complete environmental cleanup of the area, and turn over the land for parks, green space, bike trails and for environmentally-sustainable recreational/retailing activities.
Of course the NIMBYs would try to kill that too. They clearly prefer drug addict-infested junkyards.
IF the line's not going to be revived for rail service, which unfortunately seems to be the case, the city should either follow your suggestion or, at the very minimum, allow neighboring landowners to claim it. But the current do-nothing policy is utterly pointless.
"IF the line's not going to be revived for rail service, which unfortunately seems to be the case, the city should either follow your
suggestion or, at the very minimum, allow neighboring landowners to claim it. But the current do-nothing policy is utterly
pointless."
Agreed - actually worse than pointless. It's a drag on property values and encourages vagrancy and crime.
The completion of the LIRR's 63rd St line to GCT in 2012 may prompt LIRR to look at other things - such as double-tracking Ronkonkoma or electrifying Oyster Bay or otherwise increasing MUU services (or even accommodating 2nd or 3rd Generation hybrid Port Authority AirTrain vehicles) - in other words, using the new third tunnel to provide more train service on existing branches.
Where's Larry Littlefield? Come on Larry, weigh in here, please. I want to hear your opinion.
Dan,
Sorry to correct you, but that is the LIRR Rockaway Line. Not the FAR Rockaway Line.
Bill "Newkirk"
It was referred to as the "Rockaway Beach Branch".
Terrific NY railroads site!
www.forgotten-ny.com
Very nice photos, by the way. Good work.
I will be in London UK over the Memorial Day weekend. I plan to do some train watching and tube riding. Which tube lines are good ones to ride that are open for a great distance. I know the Picidilly line from Heathrow is out doors for a while along with the one next to it, is there any plac where I can film both tubes and Brit Rail the same time?
The Piccadilly Line between Acton Town and Hammersmith and the Metropolitan Line between Baker Street and Wembley Park have the only "express" runs in the system. And they are 99% outside. They give a nice ride.
The District Line between Gunnersbury and Richmond and the Bakerloo Line between Queens Park and Harrow & Wealdstone share tracks and platforms with SilverLink trains.
what is the silverlink trains, part of Brit Rail???
Yes it is. British Rail was privatized 5 years ago and is now a whole bunch of fragmented companies with SilverLink being one of them.
Well where do I start.
Try Stratford on the Central Line, where the tube line pops up to the surface then burrows again. Queens Park on the Bakerloo is right next to the West Coast Main Line. Most of the Distrct Line from Bow Raod eastwards is alongside the London Tilbury and Southend Line. Royal Oak on the Hammersmtih and City gives a good view of the Great Western and Heathrow Express. Any of the Jubilee and Metropolitan Stations north of Finchley Road run alongside the old Great Central services from Marylebone. Wimbledon Station on the District is along side the South Western services from Waterloo as is Richmond.
Your travelcard will givew access to all railways in Greater London.
Simon
Swindon UK
The last couple of Sundays I've been in the Parsons Archer station on Sundays, I've seen R trains waiting where I'd normally see the E. Are R's being extended from Continental for some reason, and where are the E's?
www.forgotten-ny.com
I believe the G.O. has R trains replacing E's and running local in all of Queens Blvd. The R runs it's normal route in Manhattan.
Sometimes they have the (E) running local on QB, then going down Broadway through Chambers, sometimes they have the (R) running to Jamaica Center. What's the difference? I guess that the (R) continues to Brooklyn.
And sometimes, the (E) does find its way to Eighth Ave after all.
:-) Andrew
Well, there are no E trains this weekend, nor will there be any for the next few weekends. The R makes all stops between Jamaica Center and 95 St. Brooklyn (running time 1 hour 34 minutes).
The Jersey City Landmarks Conservancy celebrates National Historic
Preservation Week 2001 with historical walking tours throughout Jersey City.
Saturday, May 12: Bergen Arches and Erie Cut Walking Tour. Light hiking.
Please bring a small water bottle and wear boots. Meet at the Hamilton Park
Gazebo, Jersey Ave. and 8th St. 10am to 12pm. The Bergen Arches and Erie
Cut, once part of the mighty Erie Railroad, are now a vast urban rain
forest. Walk through a long narrow corridor of folding cliffs and
moss-covered concrete arches.
Sunday, May 13: Historical Heights and Palisades Cliff Walking Tour. Meet at
the Riverview-Fisk Park Gazebo, Ogden Ave., east of Palisade Ave. 10am to
12pm. Co-sponsored by www.savethepalisades.org. Explore Washington Village,
an historic Heights neighborhood at the top of the wondrous Palisades.
Stroll across one of Jersey City's last cobblestone streets.
Monday, May 14: Light Rail Historical Tour. Meet at the Exchange Place Light
Rail Station. 7pm to 8:30pm. Co-sponsored by Fleet Bank, One Exchange Place.
Ride through once-forgotten historic neighborhoods. Observe venerable
architectural and engineering monuments erected by Jersey City's master
builders.
Tuesday, May 15: Harsimus Cove Historic District Walking Tour. Meet at the
Grove Street PATH Station. 7pm to 8:30pm. Co-sponsored by the Harsimus Cove
Association. Experience 19th century Jersey City as reflected in Harsimus
Cove's old brick and brownstone townhouses and churches.
Thursday, May 17: Jersey City Landmarks Conservancy Preservation Awards
Ceremony and Reception at the Loew's Jersey Theatre, Journal Square. Open to
the public. 6pm to 7pm. Historical slide show sponsored by the Jersey City
Historical Project to follow. The Conservancy will recognize outstanding
examples of local historic preservation as demonstrated in Old Bergen
Church, the Hamilton Park Foundry, Fleet Bank (Exchange Place), and various
commercial streetscapes projects by the Jersey City Economic Development
Corporation. The Theodore Conrad Memorial Award will be presented to Colin
Egan and the Friends of the Loew's.
Friday, May 18: Loew's Jersey Theatre Tour, Journal Square. 7pm to 8:30pm.
Co-sponsored by the Friends of the Loew's. Stand under the restored marquee
of this stunning Italian Baroque movie palace, circa 1929. Walk through a
soaring golden interior adorned with countless cherubs, murals, marble
pillars and over 3,000 seats.
Saturday, May 19: Historic Bergen District Walking Tour. Meet at the
Kearon-Hempenstall Gallery, 536 Bergen Ave. 12pm to 3pm. Co-sponsored by the
Kearon-Hempenstall Gallery and St. Paul's Church. Explore Jersey City's most
preserved Victorian neighborhood near the century-old Lincoln Park, designed
by renowned landscape architects Langton & Lowrie.
Sunday, May 20: Central Railroad of New Jersey Terminal Tour, Liberty State
Park. Meet at the Exchange Place Light Rail Station at 10am or the Terminal
at 11am. Tour runs from 11am to 1pm. Hosted by Michael Timpanaro, CRRNJ
Historian. See the last of the three great train and ferry terminals to
grace Jersey City's eastern shore.
All tours are rain or shine and free of charge.
The Jersey City Landmarks Conservancy is a non-profit 501(c)(3) organization
formed to preserve, protect and promote Jersey City's historic sites,
buildings, objects and districts. Among our activities, the Landmarks
Conservancy is leading a major historic preservation campaign for the 1906
Hudson & Manhattan Railroad Powerhouse, which is currently being considered
for entry into the State & National Registers of Historic Places. Please
visit our website at www.jclandmarks.org.
I feel like I live in the subway station at 53/Lex. It's still 84 in my apartment and that's with the air conditioner on (top floor+no insulation=hell). No use opening the windows, temps have struggled to get below 80 so far tonight.
But not too far away in Mineola, temps are in the upper 60s. In fact most of LI is around 70 or just below it, except for my corner of the woods, that area north of 25A. Even Queens and Brooklyn are cooler than here.
I gotta get out of this place, I have a headache and feel sick now.
I remember once riding an old diesel on a mild June night from Mineola to Sea Cliff, with no A/C. It was hot in there but with doors open there was a breeze. Once we got past Roslyn the breeze from the outside wasn't cool anymore. In fact even in nearby east Hills temps feel a good 5 degrees cooler. So why is this such a hot town?
Well gotta go now to stand in front of the A/C before I faint.
I mean I know lots of people live in Manhattan and it's hot there, but at least you got all that great transit. Here in SC it's a no-win situation. Perhaps I need to buy an R32 car and live in there, those cars with ice cold A/C would be a very welcome thought right about now.
Times like these, I'd suggest a MYSTICAL chic..
:)
"It's too hot, too hot baby, gotta run for shelter, gotta run for shade"
-Kool and the Gang "Too Hot"
Speaking of shelters, it would be nice if the ones on the 7 line covered the whole platform length. I remember one hot day waiting for the 7 at 74th street and had to stand in the sun since there was no standing room in the sheltered area.
Really a question for Todd Glickman, but NYC's buildings and industry conspire to make NYC a greenhouse during heat waves. The temperatures rise during the day, but can't drop too much when the sun sets, so it stays warm all night. Not getting below 70 all night is pretty hot for May.
The morning TV weatherpeople must be instructed to chirp with glee when the temperature is forecasted for 90 (Linda Church is the worst in thsi regard) but even they were touting the cold front by week's end.
Obigatory nycsubway.org transit reference:
The R32's are rolling iceboxes during heatwaves, and aren't I glad. Why isn't the AC in the 44's and 46's as good? Would it take a lot of money to make them colder?
www.forgotten-ny.com
This AM, there must have been some prolem on the Babylon Branch. Hence, my favorite AM train was re-routed over the central branch. This finally gave me the opportunity to ride a cab over that line. When we reached the mainline, it was obvious that they didn't know what to do with another (strange) train, making the ride to Jamaica slow and tedious. Despite this, I can't help wondering about all of those trains leaving Babylon this morning with no option. Now - given the flexibility it would add to the babylon Branch, wouldn't it make sense to electrify the central branch?
For the relative rarity that the Babylon line is so screwed up that it can't handle the 1 or 2 diesel trains each way, it is hardly worth electrifying. Better investment would be to electrify to Port Jeff, and consolidate a few Huntington MU and Port Jeff trains if 12 cars could handle it.
Electrifying the Central Branch is in the LIRR's 20-year plan thrugh 2016.
True, but I never thought much of their capital priorities.
Why electrify a little-used, staionless line as opposed to Yaphank or Port Jeff is beyond me.
Electrification to Yaphank and Speonk is also included, but not Port Jeff.
The Central Branch is little-used partly because it isn't electrified. It provides an "escape hatch" if there are problems on lines east. When the Main Line is third tracked, the Central Branch will provide additional capacity for service east on the South Shore.
As it did yesterday, the central branch would also provide an escape route west for Babylon train that are currently blocked or slowed by troubles west of Babylon. In reality, I think that despite the 65 MPH MAS on the central branch, the trip from Babylon to Jamaica is actually shorter & faster that way.
In my previous post, I did not mean to imply that Babylon trains used the Central branch on Friday. What I was referring to were diesel trains from the east that either stopped at or passed through Babylon.
BTW: Does anyone know the actual designation of the couplers used on the Bilevels and DM/DE30 locos?
Last year, I think it was, they used Dual Modes to operate a weekend diversion from Ronkonkoma to Penn, switching back on the Central Branch. I'm sure for the Ronk line passengers, it beat bus connections all holler.
I thought I would get a ride from Babylon to Ronkonkoma, but the trains just cleared the switches east of Belmont Jct.--never made it to Babylon station.
It also provides a Main Line escape hatch. A tractor-trailer grade crossing incident at Mineola one afternoon had a train from Port Jeff reverse at Hicksville and again at Babylon (behind a Babylon-NYP local) to get to Jamaica (2 hours late). We also picked up the passengers from a Huntington to NYP local at Hicksville that was following us. It was on one of the first C-3 bilevel runs, back when that particular run only got the new train Mondays, Wednesdays, and Fridays.
I guess there's no plan to electrify Oyster Bay line either. It seems the NORTH SHORE always seem to lag behind. You can thank all the
rich-ass NIMBY's!
>>I guess there's no plan to electrify Oyster Bay line either. It seems the NORTH SHORE always seem to lag behind. You can thank all the rich-ass NIMBY's!<<
Well, let 'em choke on the exhaust from the diesel locomotives. Once they're gone, then electrify the line.
John, I know you honestly believe that the deisel trains on the Oyster Bay Branch and the "nimby's" keeping them there are the cause of all of your and Sea Cliff's problems but I don't think electrifying the Oyster Bay Branch would change one thing other than regressing from the ultra modern tri-levels to the old M1-3's. The main problem with the OB Branch is geography rather than how the trains are powered. Its a North/South line from Mineola to OB after going East/West between Jamaica & Mineola which has to make it a long ride even though its not really much further west than Mineola. The West Hempstead, Far Rock, and Long Beach Lines are pretty much the same way. The OB branch also loses alot of riders to the Port Washington Branch which is not too far from some of the OB Branch's stations. Hypothetically if the O.B. was electric and the P.W. branch diesel I think the ridership would be pretty much the same as the P.W. Branch is much more direct.
There is also no guarantee that electrification would make it a one seat ride to Penn, it could very well become a Bklyn Line, such as the Hempstead, Long Beach, and Far Rock Line. And it could even stay a Mineola Shuttle, such as the West Hemp branch (which is electric) is pretty much a Valley Stream Shuttle.
I have to admit, a one seat ride is a big draw for people as I recently rode on the afternoon Dual Mode to O.B. from Penn which bypasses Mineola to East Williston. The train was jam packed with standees which is very unusual for the Oyster Bay branch which usually runs half empty trains. I don't know why, I would much rather change at Jamaica and get a seat than stand all the way to save a transfer.
Long Beach is a Penn Station line AFAIK. I never see it off peak hours at Atlantic on the electronic board and there are always Hempstead and Far Rockaway trains there. The one time I rode the Long Beach it was at noon or so, and I had to change at Jamaica from Flatbush.
As for rolling stock, that doesn't matter. Any electrification would need new rolling stock anyway as there aren't enough MUs. If there would be no new rolling stock with an electrification then the DE30s and DM30s would merely be converted to full electric operation. Electrification isn't merely to provide a one-seat ride. It's a better way to power trains and it would allow the LIRR to save money by not having to maintain two types of trains. All passenger RRs should be electric except for some Amtrak routes.
"Electrification isn't merely to provide a one-seat ride. It's a better way to power trains and it would allow the LIRR to save money by not having to maintain two types of trains."
There is an interesting problem with this. The LIRR is a *railroad* and so each of those MU cars is a "Locomotive" and must be inspected like a locomotive, a very expensive prospect. NJT likes diesels, Chicago is full of the things, and other new commuter lines are diesel powered for this and other reasons.
*I* use diesel push-pull sets on my model railroad for the same reasons: they are much easier to obtain and maintain than some of the MU powered sets that I have.
http://members.tripod.com/BrElias/
Elais
This is not a problem if one uses electric push-pull sets. NJT like electric push-pull, not diesel.
Except they are inappropriate on most of NJT for the service. Limited to 9 cars, poor acceleration, and very jerky, slow operation on the M&E, especially with dampness and leaves. 9 car trains have stalled.
The ALP's are far poorer performers than the AEM-7's that Amtrak and SEPTA have. I have ridden behind all of them on the NEC.
Long Beach had historically been an off-peak "Flatbush line" up until about 5-6 years ago. In about 1995, LIRR revised their weekend schedules and Long Beach became a "Penn Station line" on weekends but Flatbush on weekday off-peak. About 3-4 years ago, LIRR shifted Long Beach to a Penn Station line during the weekday off peak as well.
CG
That's right - when memory schedules were implemented. At times they have not yet been implemented, it is still a Brokklyn line. That is 8pm-11pm weeknights and 1am-6am weekends.
My main complain about OB is it is so slow. The trains crawl on there. Is the track in bad shape or something, the PJ line didn't have so many speed restrictions.
I don't mind changing trains (actually the more the merrier) but the OB line service is slow and infrequent. If electrification is not feasible than at least service should be improved.
Too many people crowd Great Neck and Port Washington for trains but OB trains are under-used. Perhaps if more people took the OB line they'd add more trains.
Or vice versa.
Was Oyster Bay one of the last lines to get new trains? I remember people complaining about getting the worst, and worst-maintained, of the old diesel units on that line.
Yup, OB was the last to get rid of the old diesels (and steam).
I would have thought the Greenport scoot was the last one. Cars 2907 ans 2909 were lingering around Morris Park all last summer as though they were there to protect it if they had to. Was there any fanfare for the last old diesel on the O.B. ?
I would have thought the Greenport scoot was the last one.
It actually was the first line to get the new equipment.
Electrification to Yaphank and Speonk is also included, but not Port Jeff.
The Central Branch is little-used partly because it isn't electrified. It provides an "escape hatch" if there are problems on lines east. When the Main Line is third tracked, the Central Branch will provide additional capacity for service east on the South Shore.
In my opinion, further electrification is pointless. The LIRR has a new fleet of diesel locomotives (plus some dual-modes) and diesel coaches - and the latter are 100% nicer and more comfortable than the MU's. Changing at Jamaica is quick and easy. There is no reason whatsoever why the LIRR should cater to lazy big shots who insist on a (bow your head in reverence) one-seat ride.
Electrification should be done because it's BETTER. The only problem is replacing the locomotives.
Why is it difficult to replace the locomotives?
Because they're new. It would be a waste.
Because they're new. It would be a waste.
100% of the equipment running today is capable of running if electrification is expanded. Absolutely nothing needs to be abandoned or scrapped.
Half of the locomotives to which you refer (the DM-30s) are dual-modes and are perfectly capable of drawing power from the third rail, or running as they do now, in electric mode where required and diesel once clear of the tunnels.
The other half (the DE-30s) operate completely independently of the third rail anyway. Sure, you can't run them as far west as you might like, but there are plenty of trains that don't go all the way to Penn or Flatbush as it is now. Assign the DE-30s to those runs.
New fleet or not, if further electrification makes sense (and I'm not implying that it does or doesn't,) then it should be pursued.
Mark
The GP38-2 locomotives which were the workhorses of the LIRR could not get into the tunnels due to their heights, but now they are working for the New York and Atlantic Railway, which is an all freight operation. The new locomotives are capable of entering Penn Station, and I think they can get into Flatbush Ave, but I am not sure about that one. Any diesel electric locomotive can be retrofitted to operate with third rail power, and you can see for yourself if you go to Grand Central Terminal and take a close look at some of the General Electric Genesis class locomotives operating on the Metro-North Commuter Railroad. They have third rail pickup shoes, just like the venerable old FL-9's of the New Haven railroad.
I doubt the DE/DM engines fill fit into Flatbush Terminal (but may well thru the "Woodhaven" tunnel) because the old Pennsy-era MP70 double-deckers could not. They were 14'2" high, where as the MP72's could at 13'7".
What is the height of the GE Genesis Class Amtrak locomotive? That can get into Penn Station, as well as GCT, and they are used for the trips to Albany and points north and west on the old NY Central Water Level Route.
Some of those old electrics on the NY Central were really massive, as were their counterparts on the old New Haven RR. Size wise, how did the NY Central electrics match up against the Pennsy GG-1 and the New Haven Electrics?
You're the one who hates the Ronkonkoma line because of all those people from Smithtown, Port Jeff, and Patchogue. Do you favor de-electrifying Ronkonkoma in that case if changing at Jamaica is no big deal ?
You're the one who hates the Ronkonkoma line because of all those people from Smithtown, Port Jeff, and Patchogue. Do you favor de-electrifying Ronkonkoma in that case if changing at Jamaica is no big deal ?
You'd better believe I detest Ronkonkoma (but see my posting under Blessed Relief). Even so, de-electrifying the line would not be a good idea, as it would essentially be writing off the whole investment after 15 or so years.
There's another opinion on dual modes. You know that Jersey Transit is expanding electrification. I think they're going as far as Great Notch on the Boonton Line in the next stage.
NJT has been asked why they don't simply go to dual modes. They think they're too heavy, too complex, too expensive for the benefit gained.
The biggest argument in favor of dual modes is that they're a smaller upfront capital investment. Sometimes this is a good decision, sometimes not. It was one of the big arguments in favor of converting trolleys to bus 50 years ago.
If you mean a dual-mode that can run off catenary (as opposed to 3rd rail), please forget it. It has yet to be invented, and would likely cost about $10 million a piece.
Is there some technical problem I'm missing that would
make it significantly more difficult or expensive to build
a dual-mode with pantographs than one with third-rail
shoes?
Yes, a locomotive type with a limited market base would
necessarily have to amortize the development costs across
smaller number of units. On the other hand, this might
not have to be a custom design for NJT only. I can
imagine Amtrak having some interest in the concept for
Virgnia trains, and perhaps Southern and Pittsburgh-route
long-hauls.
Alan Follett
A high voltage AC-catenary locomotive is very complicated and stuffed with equipment as it is. Such an engine that is also diesel would have to be a 2-unit creature for the prime mover. Imagine an AEM-7 and an F59 together. Thrid rail is very simple. It provides power to the traction motors instead of from the prime mover.
Amtrak has no interest. better to change engines somewhere and refurbish the electrifcation to Harrisburgh. NS won't let them get beyond 2 trains a day to Pittsburgh.
The FL9s?
Seattle Metro operates dual-mode buses which use overhead wire (trolley, not pantograph, but still...) in electric mode. If it can be done with buses, which tend to be smaller than the typical locomotive, why NOT dual-mode catenary trains?
Trolleys draw considerably less current than modern locomotives do. Hence, 600 V overhead wire is feasible. However, for a modern loco. you need 25,000 VAC to keep currents and wire size reasonable for catenary. However, the equipment needed to make the 25KVAC usable for the locomotive takes up much space hence making the locomotive too large.
In Karlsruhe they operate dual mode caternary LRVs capable to use low voltage trolley tracks and railroad (not sure what the rr voltage is). I've read about Adtranz's proposal for 600VDC 3kVDC dual mode LRV operation.
Arti
Putting Speonk ahead of Port Jeff is really a slap in the face to the North Shore. It certainly has nothing to do with current ridership.
They were actually committed to doing the Port Jeff line first. They even had the money to go as far as Northport. But as perceptions shifted, community support for electrification has waned. I think part is fear of encouraging development. Another part is that places along the line might see road connectors and large parking garages. Think Huntington Station or Ronkonkoma.
Same sentiment that has formed the 25A committees.
Actaully they had the budget to get to Smithtown, but it was the LIRR who turned to dual-mode like a defense contractor wanting to invent a new toy. They could have done it to Port Jeff by 1992 if they put their minds to it, and told the NIMBYs to go to hell. Ronkonkoma and Huntington would not have been the parking deck villages that they are today if they did so, and the rest of the Port Jeff line would not have changed much in character, except for Port Jeff itself, which is a catch basin for the communities out to Wading River.
No matter how many times someone tries explaining this, it never makes sense to me:
Why would NIMBYs (or anyone else, for that matter) oppose electrification?
Electrics are quieter and cleaner along the ROW than diesels. Do the people in opposition somehow fear that electrification will bring increased service, or make it easier for undesirables to gain access to the area, or suburbanize their rural communities (or urbanize their suburban communities?) I think that these are all poor and illogical excuses.
Mark
Yes to all of the above, and the 3rd rail will be an "attractive nuisance" to their little darlings. While diesel trains are noisy, but electric trains are too quiet. Trains are either too noisy or too quiet, so they can't win.
In 1984 MN's Harlem line was electrified from North White Plains to Brewster North. Much of this territory is quite wealthy and heavily rural as well, especially north of Katonah. I don't recall reading about much community resistance to this electrification.
If anything, the electrification has been a huge success in attracting riders- so much so that commuters who would normally use the diesel Danbury branch are driving west to Brewster for the electric service. This is despite the fact that rush hour Danbury diesels go directly to and from Grand Central, requiring no transfer at South Norwalk.
That just goes to show there is room for electrification deeper into the suburbs.
Why would anyone be against electrification? Who needs the noise and fumes from the diesels.
"Why would anyone be against electrification?"
Unless it makes us glow in the dark (oh, sorry, I thought you said electrocution...):0)
"Unless it makes us glow in the dark (oh, sorry, I thought you said...'
This month's Model Railroader has a covered hopper lettered for nuclear waste disposal. It is cast in plastic that glows in the dark.
Elias
Hardy - har -har
I have both electrics and diesels running a stone's throw from my house (well, if you have a really good arm).
The diesels aren't any particular problem unless you live near a place where they're idling during off hours. The LIRR keeps them running all night in cold weather.
Not long after the new diesels were introduced I noticed a low annoying whining noise inside my closed home. I thought there was some kind of construction going on--it was there some hours and not others. I finally traced it to a set of the new diesels that was left idling on the Central Branch just west of Belmont Jct. Their turbines produce a very annoying sound that travels quite far, much further than the main roar you associate with diesels.
"Their turbines produce a very annoying sound that travels
quite far, much further than the main roar you associate with diesels."
Are you referring to the turbogenerator which spins the alternator to make current? Or is this a supercharger which works even at constant (idle) speed?
"Their turbines produce a very annoying sound that travels
quite far, much further than the main roar you associate with diesels."
Are you referring to the turbogenerator which spins the alternator to make current? Or is this a supercharger which works even at constant (idle) speed?
I don't know the answer to that question. I can hear the whine both close up and far away, but close up you tend not to notice it because of the roar of the engine. I guess it's because high pitched sounds travel further than low pitched ones.
Sounds like a supercharger.
NJ Transit faced some community opposition to the partial electrification of the Boonton line from Montclair to Great Notch. The environmental impact statement had to include a study of the effects of the radiation emanating from the wires.
I think you have more of a NIMBY problem when you to try to re-activate a idle ROW, vs. one that already has commuters using diesel power. The LI Central Branch is one of those. Garden City even went so far as to ban freight traffic on the line (this is why the LIRR had to provide diesels to move the Circus train in & out of Mitchel Field).
This is also why after the LIRR/NY&A got money to clean up the Bayridge line (West Nile scare about water in the discarded tires breading it/them), they took the area NIMBYs down the line in a former LIRR coach (now painted green). The trip went from Midwood to the 65th St yard & back ... no railfans (almost), no run bys. Just a few speaches, some politians, a reporter from the local paper (Brooklyn Daily Eagle) & a hand out "Bay Ridge Branch Inspection Tour" "Souvenir Brochure".
Mr t__:^)
You just answered all your questions about why some areas are hesitant about electrication of train service. A prime example is when service to Ronkonkoma was electrified, more people began to use the service and more homes were being built in and around the electrified line. So that is why most people don't it, even though it would reduce the amount of cars on the roadways if more people used mass transit.
But the answer to that isn't non-electrification. The answer to that is:
1. Passage of zoning regulation limitig development
2. The purchase of open space, or easements, by public authorities or non-profit groups to prevent development
Without these protections, development will happen anyway, with or without mass transit. Mass transit may act, in some cases, to accelerate it, however.
I suspect little of that "new" ridership to the Ronkonkoma line is new to the railroad; they are simply refugees from the PJ and South Shore. Electrifying the busier of those two will simply allow those people or their predeecessors to drive to a station they once did.
I'm very surprised the realators on the PJ line haven't gone ape-shit over this. There's a lot of old money along there and one of the 4 SUNY centers. In New Jersey, Westfield is VERY jealous that Summit has Midtown Direct on the M&E but not on the RVL.
Your scenario sounds reasonable.
I suspect little of that "new" ridership to the Ronkonkoma line is new to the railroad; they are simply refugees from the PJ and South Shore. Electrifying the busier of those two will simply allow those people or their predeecessors to drive to a station they once did.
I'm very surprised the realators on the PJ line haven't gone ape-shit over this. There's a lot of old money along there and one of the 4 SUNY centers. In New Jersey, Westfield is VERY jealous that Summit has Midtown Direct on the M&E but not on the RVL.
Electrifying the Ronkonkoma line certainly doesn't seem to have hurt real estate values along the Port Jefferson line. For the most part, the communities along the latter line are quite prosperous and the area's seen quite a bit of high-end development. In contrast, the Ronkonkoma line runs through some of the worst parts of Long Island. One of the reasons advanced in favor of electrification was that it would help the economic fortunes of Central Islip, Brentwood and Wyandanch ... needless to say, it hasn't.
Come to think of it, Ronkonkoma electrification actually has made life a lot easier for people living along the Port Jefferson line, and the Montauk line too. They can enjoy pleasantly uncrowded rides, today on comfortable diesel coaches, thanks to all the big shots who humiliate themselves at Ronkonkoma every day in their quest for (bow your head in reverence) A Single-Seat Ride.
If electrifying the Central line track is mostly to be used as an escape hatch for emergency situations on the Babylon or Main Line wouldn't it be a more efficient solution if they just kept a spare locomotive on a siding on either end (in Bethpage or Babylon) specially equipped to couple with and pull MU trains (M-1,3's) just on that stretch?
As I said, it's also to increase general capacity east when the Main Line is 3 tracked. It's not that difficult.
Electrifying the Central Bracnch is a logical and seemingly simple thing, where the actual construction would take a couple of months (remember- the Babylon brach was done in 11 months).
But before they can do anything, they need to go through several years' worth of paperwork with studies and plans and spend quite a bit of money on it too. Therefore, the MTA does not feel that it is worth it to go to all that trouble.
I haven't been through this area in many years. Is there sufficient real estate to build "reverse entries" into the Central Branch from the Babylon and Ronkonoma lines? I would think that having another relief valve would be valuable -- so that if the Main Line were blocked -- trains could go from Jamaica down the Babylon branch, turn north along the Central Branch, then east out to Ronkonkoma (and return the same way).
Actually, they could probably build a wye at the Babylon end, since there is a piece of property owned by LIPA that could be used, if the agencies could agree, and the adjacent area west of the branch is industrial. I don't think this would work at Beth, though.
When Main Line construction blocked the route west of Hicksville one weekend (probably when they were finished the Herricks Road crossing) trains were routed from Ronkonkoma to Penn with a reverse move via the Central Branch. It seemed to work OK.
Hay Dude, shouldn't you call this the "diagonal branch" ?
The Central Branch to me goes thru Garden City and now ends just before the Meadowbrook Parkway.
Mr t__:^)
It wa sbuilt by the Central Railroad of L.I., same as the route you cite. Hence, the "Central Branch."
In case you haven't heard, this weekend, and another Sunday later this month, there will be absolutely no #4 trains north of 161st Street whatsoever. Why are they doing this? For God's sake, there are three whole tracks along most of that stretch! Why can't they run trains on at least one of them?
- Lyle Goldman
Solely to inconveinience YOU.
Consider that they may be doing work on switches, which will knock out two of three tracks.
-Hank
It doesn't inconvenience me. I'm nowhere near that area on weekends. It must inconvenience many other people, though. Even if two tracks must be out, can't they use the remaining track?
Does anyone here know for sure what they are doing that requires a whole three-track line to be put out of service?
- Lyle Goldman
I have noticed that some recent GOs have been pretty aggressive.
The 4 is one -- no substitute bus service is even provided. This past weekend's B/D changes are another -- at weekend headways, the D could have easily run on the local tracks. For the past few months, midday J service has been running at 24-minute headways, and in a few weeks the midday 5 will run shuttle service with 30-minute headways to Dyre. It doesn't seem like a terribly good idea to have greater midday than overnight headways, but what do I know?
Midday shuttle service to Dyre -- When this has run in the past, it is because of work being done on that limits usage to one train going back and forth (so as not to run the risk of a head-on) between Dyre and E.180. Since running time in one direction is 12 minutes and we need time to recharge the train , as well as let me people on and off and make connections with arriving N/B 2 trains, headway becomes 30 minutes.
I would imagine that something similar is at the root of 24 minute headways on the J. As for the 4, since the B/D run parallel to it a whopping two blocks away, there really isn't much need for bus service bewteen Bedford Pk Blvd and 161 and there usually has been a bus running from Woodlawn to Mosholu Pkway to 205 St during previous implementations of this GO
It hadn't occurred to me that the 5 shuttle would be single-tracked, but that makes sense. I think the 24-minute J is single-tracked over the Williamsburg Bridge.
It's still an awfully long wait. Wouldn't substitute bus service be preferable? Or could the line be single-tracked only in part? Or, at least, couldn't the work be done at night when standard headways are already 20 minutes?
How long are the two blocks from the 4 to the D? My impression is that they're fairly long, long enough to be a hardship for some. If not, couldn't the TA save money by doing away with one of the lines except rush hours?
*BUS* service? Thou blasphemeth! :)
I finally managed to get my first ride on the Italian Trolleys since last July this past Friday. According to Jonathan Belcher's page on the NE Transit site, 4 cars (3811,3812, 3814, and 3822) are now in operation on the "B" line. Today, I rode Car 3822, which was paired up with modified type 7 car 3622. I also saw 3811 paired up with 3682 as well...whcih leads me to believe there is a third train out there, which consists of cars 3812 and 3814....has anybody seen that? -Nick
The Jersey City Landmarks Conservancy celebrates National Historic
Preservation Week 2001 with historical walking tours throughout Jersey City.
Saturday, May 12: Bergen Arches and Erie Cut Walking Tour. Light hiking.
Please bring a small water bottle and wear boots. Meet at the Hamilton Park
Gazebo, Jersey Ave. and 8th St. 10am to 12pm. The Bergen Arches and Erie
Cut, once part of the mighty Erie Railroad, are now a vast urban rain
forest. Walk through a long narrow corridor of folding cliffs and
moss-covered concrete arches.
Sunday, May 13: Historical Heights and Palisades Cliff Walking Tour. Meet at
the Riverview-Fisk Park Gazebo, Ogden Ave., east of Palisade Ave. 10am to
12pm. Co-sponsored by www.savethepalisades.org. Explore Washington Village,
an historic Heights neighborhood at the top of the wondrous Palisades.
Stroll across one of Jersey City's last cobblestone streets.
Monday, May 14: Light Rail Historical Tour. Meet at the Exchange Place Light
Rail Station. 7pm to 8:30pm. Co-sponsored by Fleet Bank, One Exchange Place.
Ride through once-forgotten historic neighborhoods. Observe venerable
architectural and engineering monuments erected by Jersey City's master
builders.
Tuesday, May 15: Harsimus Cove Historic District Walking Tour. Meet at the
Grove Street PATH Station. 7pm to 8:30pm. Co-sponsored by the Harsimus Cove
Association. Experience 19th century Jersey City as reflected in Harsimus
Cove's old brick and brownstone townhouses and churches.
Thursday, May 17: Jersey City Landmarks Conservancy Preservation Awards
Ceremony and Reception at the Loew's Jersey Theatre, Journal Square. Open to
the public. 6pm to 7pm. Historical slide show sponsored by the Jersey City
Historical Project to follow. The Conservancy will recognize outstanding
examples of local historic preservation as demonstrated in Old Bergen
Church, the Hamilton Park Foundry, Fleet Bank (Exchange Place), and various
commercial streetscapes projects by the Jersey City Economic Development
Corporation. The Theodore Conrad Memorial Award will be presented to Colin
Egan and the Friends of the Loew's.
Friday, May 18: Loew's Jersey Theatre Tour, Journal Square. 7pm to 8:30pm.
Co-sponsored by the Friends of the Loew's. Stand under the restored marquee
of this stunning Italian Baroque movie palace, circa 1929. Walk through a
soaring golden interior adorned with countless cherubs, murals, marble
pillars and over 3,000 seats.
Saturday, May 19: Historic Bergen District Walking Tour. Meet at the
Kearon-Hempenstall Gallery, 536 Bergen Ave. 12pm to 3pm. Co-sponsored by the
Kearon-Hempenstall Gallery and St. Paul's Church. Explore Jersey City's most
preserved Victorian neighborhood near the century-old Lincoln Park, designed
by renowned landscape architects Langton & Lowrie.
Sunday, May 20: Central Railroad of New Jersey Terminal Tour, Liberty State
Park. Meet at the Exchange Place Light Rail Station at 10am or the Terminal
at 11am. Tour runs from 11am to 1pm. Hosted by Michael Timpanaro, CRRNJ
Historian. See the last of the three great train and ferry terminals to
grace Jersey City's eastern shore.
All tours are rain or shine and free of charge.
The Jersey City Landmarks Conservancy is a non-profit 501(c)(3) organization
formed to preserve, protect and promote Jersey City's historic sites,
buildings, objects and districts. Among our activities, the Landmarks
Conservancy is leading a major historic preservation campaign for the 1906
Hudson & Manhattan Railroad Powerhouse, which is currently being considered
for entry into the State & National Registers of Historic Places. Please
visit our website at www.jclandmarks.org.
Just a reminder that subway historian Joe Cunningham will be doing a tour of the Brighton Line, one of NY's most intereesting subway lines. Meets at the Prospect Park Station at Empire & Flatbush at 1:00 and should take about 3 hours. Tour costs $8 and may be getting on and off some trains along the way so be prepared to use your metrocard a couple of times.
www.forgotten-ny.com
In the middle of last month, there was a brief thread regarding a transit desktop. I downloaded it and tried it, but quickly abandoned it because the color scheme for the menus was to bright. I did like the idea of a transit desktop though, but I could not decide which transit picture I wanted.
The solution I found was Webshots. If you have sufficient room on your hard drive, you might want to check it out. After downloading their engine, you can have random rotating pictures of your choice for both your desktop and screen saver. I automatically rotate my desktop once a day, and the screen saver once a minute with a base of 350+ images (which takes up 4.4 MB of disk space). How often you wish to rotate your photos is up to you. I have been running this on Win98 since 4/23 without any problems.
Although the Webshots site itself is pretty sparse on transit pictures, it is possible once you have downloaded the engine to include any .jpg image you have in your picture gallery.
Here is the link to Webshots
Tom
I made those. Thanks for downloading.
Which scheme(s) did you download?
Comments are appreciated so I can make subsequent versions if need be.
>>> Which scheme(s) did you download? <<<
I downloaded the NYCT version, and I am certainly not knocking what you did, it was excellent. I just prefer more muted tones on the menus.
Tom
The NYC Theme has the gray windows. Others are on the bright side, like in the Acela theme, but I find the NYC to be one of the better schemes.
And BTW: You can modify the schemes for your needs. For example, you can make it have a larger font, lighter colors, and so on.
I could not find one rail transit shot there ........however the general train shots were nice !!!
>>> I could not find one rail transit shot there <<<
Try a picture search with the words "rail transit." There are a few which have been uploaded by users.
Tom
I have a question about the R32s, what many consider the best car in the fleet....
I was contemplating the fate of the old Rustbirds one night when I thought about the fact that some had just turned 40. Then I realized that the R32 was usually compared to the Redbirds as being a superior product and that they wrre quite close in age. I did some checking and found that the R32s are vintage 1964 equipment, making them 37 years old. A common belief around here is that they will make it to thier 50th birthday, which will be in the year 2014, 13 years away.
The question I have is this; how will these cars make it to the year 2014? The R142 order is slated to knock out 75% of the Rustbirds, the R143 order will kill the rest of those PLUS the R38, R40, and R42. Plus there's already a plan for the R160s to come through in a few years. I really don't think it'll take 13 years for them to get here.
The R143 is for fleet expansion only. Nothing will be replaced by it. Your post seemed to imply that the R143 would replace the remaining Redbirds, but the R143 is B division, so they can't run on the A div. The R160 will replace the crappiest of the B division fleet, which doesn't include the R32, I think. It will be a while before the R160 go in into service. By the time they do, I bet plans will be made to replace the R32.
The R32s are superior to the R38-42 because they are made completely from stainless steel, unlike the others with only stainless steel outsides. The frames of the R38-40s are deteriorating where no one can see it. R32s also have that super cold A/C. It makes the hour and a half long ride on the N from Coney Island much more bearable.
The R160 is only for 660 or so cars, not 1000, and are not yet funded. The MTA is also going to have to get over having fare-backed bonds, and that will slow capital projects over this decade. The R32 will be the modern-day version of the BMT Standard or LIRR/PRR MP54, whether that is the intention or not.
The R44's are also visibly deteriorating, and make cause the R32's to enroll as working AARP members. The doors jams have on the outside seem to have reinforcemnet caps, and what was the blue-stripe area is rotting thru.
I heard that R44's will bereplaced with cars that come after the R160's. Also the R46's & R68's are going to be rebuild sometime in the future with A/C moters. I can't say if this is ture or not, It's just what I heard.
Robert
Then the R32's will be attending yet another wake - of the R44's.
I don't think there will be any farewel fan trips.
Does AC motors require a GOH ?
Does AC motors require a GOH ?
No modification requires a general overhaul of the cars.Virtually every modification can be done during SMS. Of course you just don't put AC motors onto a truck and that's it. You also have to change the propulsion package & perhaps more. These types of mods are best done on a 12 year SMS.
From what I've seen in heavy freight service (The SD80-MACs are sweet locomotives) you guys are going to be VERY happy with AC traction on the trains you have - especially if it's polyphasic variable frequency systems. I'm sure you know what hell low speed can be on DC motors, especially with a high pull load ... hell, just getting out from under all those brush replacements is going to lighten the workload.
But really? The 32's? AC Propulsion? First air conditioning and now this. You guys are making Frankensteins! :)
Let's not get too far afield here. I simply addressed the issue of whether or not you need a GOH to change over to AC propulsion. I never said the R-32s would get AC propulsion. In fact, I would think it highly unlikely that they would. By the end of this year, roughly 25% of the NYCT fleet will be AC propulsion. Another 25% will have E-Cams. Then figure CBTC and AFC and MVM. For the want of a better word, it would make the organization uncomfortable to accept much more technological change in such a short time. After all, we oldtimers don't adapt to change very well. :)
Hey! Hey! I *resemble* that remark ... remember, I can't conceive of a train that can be operated without wrenches and gloves. :)
I'll bet you would have loved to work the doors on the R-10s.:-)
But but but ... they were the SAME ... bottle caps is bottle caps even if they had electric assist ... as I've said before, conductors ain't conductors unless they climb the outside of the cars like suit-covered anused monkeys. ANY wimp can open a window and push buttons. :)
You got that right Selkirk. The R 1/9 maybe 10's made it a conductors life a challenge to get between two moving cars and step up on two icy plates on a cold rainy or snowy day. Thinking back they didn't waste and sheet steel when they were made, just about big enough for a man's foot if not size 12. I think the D types had them also don't know about the IRT equip as I lived in BMT and IND neighborhoods.
Burn the Slow Orders and Wrap It!
Curt
Heh. Burn the TIMERS and wrap it ... yeah, I had a foot plate drop on me once, fortunately it didn't go under any wheels. Hell of a surprise though as I stepped out for 125th Street ... but then that's why God made GRAB IRONS. Heh.
There better be....I like the R44. Then again, I like the R16 ...
Everyone has their own taste.:-)
The R38, 40 and 42 will go before the R44, as those older 60' cars have rusting carbon steel frames. The R44 might be a mechanical nuisance, buttheir super-structure is in fine condition. With SMS in full effect, body deterioration will be the main factor in the amount of time a car remains in service, not mechanical reasons.
Alright, I see now. Thanks.
The R44 and 46s should be scrapped. They are the biggest pieces of garbage I've ever seen. Slow, big, fat, and those SEATS!!!!!!!!! The R32s and 38s are king. I love them.
Then again, I'm big, slow and fat, too. Well, they should still go. After all, it takes one to know one. :)
Tony
whats wrong withR-44 R-46 interior? The A/C on the 46 is very acceptable, there is a ;ot of standing room, the seating is fine if you are not overly obese so that it becomes a Department Of Urban Development hazard, and they aren't as slow as one might think,plus on the 44s ypu can lean on the plastic divider by the door, and their aperarence is a modern look and sometimes riding the R-44s on the A makes you feel like you are on a commuter railroad. Its cool, I really dont know about the technical aspect, but im sure C/R and T/Os appreciate transverse cabs to smoke, eat, pleasure themselves, or read while operating, but as I heard before a lot of them dont like single handle operation.
The R-46s are OK.
I got accepted to City Tech college! My dad, a QV B/O went there as well. One question though, if u were me, what course would u take that might have some relation to Train operation, because I wanna be either a Locomotive Engineer or Motorman
Thanks
Congratulations on acceptance to college. Your Dad must be very proud of you. I know all of us on this website wish you well. Study hard, and make something of yourself! Is this a two year or four-year school?
One question from me: Have you also thought about studying engineering (civil, mechanical, electrical) and applying that to transit? Or studying finance or economics with an eye to applying them to transit? Just something to mull over.
I am not a transit professional, but I would think that getting a good dose of math and physical sciences wouldn't hurt, and taking a variety of other courses to broaden your horizons wouldn't either.
I'll let the real transit people give you their advice.
To become a Train Operator, all that is required is a high school diploma. That's been for the last 3 years, before that there were no education requirements.
Good luck on going to college, but it isn't necessary for T/O. Just keep your eye out for the next TA civil service test.
Maybe there's a course called "Foamer 101" that should help steer you in the right direction.....;-D
BMTman
Today's News has a short piece on the IRT City Hall station in it's Secret City feature. With a major error...let's see who spots it first!
That's pretty easy. The article suggests you stay on-board, but the loop track is now not main line, so passengers are prohibited to stay on trains.
Right, but that's not the error I saw. This one's much worse!
The Composites were made of wood and steel and I think metal.After that the HI V's came along , they were all steel cars.
Interesting. I say that beacuse depending on who you talk to (even on here) you will get different stories.
One person told me that you can ride around now, another told me you can't.
Will someone get the correct version.
Thanks
It's really very simple. A few years ago the TA changed the designation of the City Hall Loop track from a yard track to part of the main line. This meant that customers could stay aboard while the trains traversed the loop. Subsequently, due to security concerns related to terrorism, the Mayor's office asked that the public not be permitted to ride through the loop.
In preparation for the upcoming Train Dispatcher promotion test, a pile of bulletins have been re-released, including the one concerning the City Hall loop track. According to this bulletin, dated in the the last two weeks (memory fails as to the exact date and since I'm on vacation, I 'm not even going to look), City HAll Loop is mainline track, and as such, customers may remain on board.
Excellent news, thanks Alex. Maybe one of our SubTalk friends who
is on duty can give us the GO number in case we need to quote it
to a T/O or C/R who doesn't know about the change in status.
Actually, it's a bulletin (rule book revision) and not a GO. If no one posts it before me, I'll post the # tomorrow.
Now, for a short while, railfans can stay on and use the excuse, "but the newspaper said that we could."
The station isnt below the Brooklyn Bridge station. City Hall station is South of Brooklyn Bridge, The only way you can stay on the train is if you either hide from the conductor or the conductor isnt looking towards the rear of the train.You cant see it from the railfan window either, The T/O will kick you off the train!!!!You haave to ride south loop and head north again.
I noticed that, but I think they meant "below" in the "south of" sense.
I didn't notice that, but I think the writer was getting the City Hall BMT and IRT stations confused.
(The BMT City Hall station has a closed lower level.)
http://www.nycsubway.org/maps/track/cityhall.gif
I don't think so, as the article clearly describes the IRT station and mentions that the line went west on 42nd St.
In 1904 it did. Look on the IRT history on the site.
Everyone here knows the original IRT went on 42 St. The error in the article, once again, was saying that the road traveled under B'way SOUTH OF 42 St. (Remember, the writer had the line going up B'way to 42, then west, then north AGAIN under B'way!)
Its such an obvious error, its easy to miss: "carried the party under Broadway"...
We've got a winner! The Broadway part of the run uptown began at 42nd (Times Square) and went north from there. Partial credit though ... part of the ride was on Broadway. :)
I was embarassed to realize I had to read over the story twice before I got it. I was looking for little stuff like "was it 1945...?" "yeah, it was October...".
An old Army sergeant I knew had an expression for it: "it is was a snake, it woulda bit ya." ;-)
I figured it out as soon as I got to it, but you beat me to the post.
And that is obviously for what Randy was looking.
Bingo! Just thought I'd see how long it took. The reference to "copper-sheathed wooden cars" seemed funny also, but I wasn't sure.
All depends on how you define "wooden cars." The Copperside were copper-sheated wood, but the main frame was steel--I'm not sure above the floor line.
A lot of "wooden cars" had substantial steel components, especially underbodies.
Heh. But you STILL got it before anyone else in the thread ... aren't you glad that as you get older it's the mind that goes first and not a vital organ? ;)
Some organs are more vital than others ;-)
The mind doesn't go, it just has lots more info and the filing system takes longer to address it. In some circles, this is callled "wisdom".
Having an edatic memory is fun, especially when everybody else realizes that you remember almost everything for the last 40 years or so.
Actually, part of the loop/station is under Broadway (it even connected to the Woolworth building on the other side of Broadway), so this is either what they meant, or it is what threw them off.
Actually, part of the loop/station is under Broadway (it even connected to the Woolworth building on the other side of Broadway
There was an entrance from the Woolworth Building?
The 2/3 had an entrance from the Woolworth Building for the Park Place station, but the City Hall station for the 6 is a good 1 1/2 blocks away. There could have been a tunnel, but it would have been there an awfully short time -- the City Hall Station was built in 1904, the Woolworth Building went up four years later, and the BMT City Hall stop went in seven years after that.
If you did a 3-D schematic of the City Hall area, the upper level of the N/R in front of the Woolworth Building is one level below the street, while the 4/5 tracks coming from Brooklyn Bridge to Fulton Street rise up from two levels below the street at BB to one level below at Fulton (which is why the Vescy St. "S" curve is there on the N/R) while the un-used lower level of the BMT City Hall Station and the City Hall loop for the 6 are two levels down. Three levels down is the 2/3, running across City Hall Park from Park Place to Beekman Street.
While that makes it hard for there to have been a tunnel from the IRT City Hall station to the Woolworth Building, on the other hand, if they ever do decide to move the Transit Museum from Brooklyn to Manhattan, they could build a connecting tunnel from the south end of the lower level BMT City Hall station to the IRT City Hall Station, since they are on the same level.
That would allow the MTA to store the historic subway cars in the BMT station (with more space -- three tracks instead of two) and put displays in the connecting tunnel (including a more prominent display on the Beach pneumatic tube), while giving people a chance to view the city's first IRT subway station. Some sort of plexiglas could be installed between the track and platform and the No. 6 trains could continue to use the loop while the platform would be part of a "living museum," so to speak.
…on the other hand, if they ever do decide to move the Transit Museum from Brooklyn to Manhattan…
Please make that “expand.” I’m sure there could be complementary exhibits and historic cars, (like the Redbirds!)
John.
That would allow the MTA to store the historic subway cars in the BMT station (with more space -- three tracks instead of two) ...
While your idea is a good one, the lower level of BMT City Hall is used for layups. Doubtful that the TA would "donate" this space to the museum anytime soon.
--Mark
Connect the IND at Hudson Terminal to the BMT at Cortlandt St. (and the Montague St. tunnel to the IND Court St. station), connect the BMT Broadway local tracks from Canal St. to the Centre St. line at Chambers St., and use the BMT City Hall station at the Transit Museum. Voila!
There would be a loss of space (presumable two to three trains that are parked in the station) but lay-up tracks would need less space for storage if they ever got the Manny B operating again, since there would be less of a jam in the Montague Street tunnel and less of a need to turn back trains at Canal and Whitehall.
Weekend storage would be another matter, but not a insurmountable one.
Are you sure? The two-level BMT City Hall station is on Broadway there, and the 2/3 passes yet another level down. Where does the 6 squeeze in?
I got accepted to City Tech college! My dad, a QV B/O went there as well. One question though, if u were me, what course would u take that might have some relation to Train operation, because I wanna be either a Locomotive Engineer or Motorman
Thanks
i want ther and ther is nothing to do the being a T/O.
Robert
How much money is added to the price of a standard, full-size pickup truck to outfit it with rail wheels? Does it then operate using all speeds on its transmission that it would use on the highway?
I am not sure what you mean. Most rail/road vehicles (called hi-railers) can run on both the rails and the road w/o modifacation. For rail running there are little flanged guide wheels that are lowered into place and then serve to keep the vehicle on the rails as it is propelled by it's standard rubber road wheels. Is this the type of modifacation you were refering to?
Yes, that was what I was referring to. I've seen CSX use something like that. The pickup has rail wheels which lower for rail travel and retract for highway travel. I wanted to know how the transmission is hooked up for this etc. How much extra does it cost to do that.
The rail wheels are not powered. They just guide the vehicle. The normal road wheels propell the truck w/ the normal transmission.
Thank you! Cleared that one up. So the additional equipment is not expensive.
It is indeed, because it needs to be properly attached to the frame. Some vehicles may have 'lift-type' hi-rail packages, where the drive wheels engage a pinion, instead of the rail. The ones that directly contact the rail are more efficent, however.
-Hank
"...drive wheels engage a pinion, instead of the rail."
And the pinion engages the rail? I'm having trouble visualizing how this works.
Thanks for your kind explanation.
It's call a Hy-Rail vehicle. The steel wheels are used for "steering" only; the tires run along the rails and provide traction.
Maybe I'm missing something here but if the steel wheels are only for steering and the rubber tires are still on the ground providing traction, wouldn't that make for a very bumpy ride over the wooden ties????
Actually, the rubber wheels ride on the rails as well. The "steel wheels" just help keep them in place. And it's fun to just let go of the steering wheel, knowing you ain't going anywhere (sideways at least) ... all part of that wonderous lineage where wheel widths STILL conform largely to the dimensions of Roman chariots.
An Army buddy farmer from Oklahoma told me that his older brother used to put his car on the single track lightly-used freight track to drive the 100 miles to the nearest town, letting some air out of the tires to stay on the rails, then sit back and get there in an hour (in the 1950's), getting off at a grade crossing by a gas station to pump up the tires again. The last time he did it he saw a headlight. He successfuly left the track, but had to drive miles overland on soft tires before finding a road. He learned his lesson the easy way.
Heh. One should always phone ahead, at least to the NEXT tower. :)
Great scene in the old classic flick "Flim Flam Man" starring George C. Scott involving low tire pressure and rails and a pickup truck. I recommend it all even if it's campy so many years after its release.
I read somewhere in TRAINS magazine about hi-rail vehicles, and that the movements of those vehicles are strictly controlled by the dispatchers to avoid accidents with regular trains. They have to radio to the dispatcher for permission to enter the ROW to get to an assignment. I would not recommend any do-it-yourself modifications of a 4x4 or Ford pickup for that purpose, as the law enforcement crowd would not be very understanding. You have to think safety at all times, and a head-on isn't something on anybody's wish list, except if one is suicidal.
Agreed. I wasn't planning on buying one.
I noticed that the approach of such a vehicle does not activate railroad crossing gates or lights. Weight-based sensors, obviously...
Weight-based sensors, obviously...
No, hi-railers (or track cars) do not shunt the track circut (although I have seen some that do) and therefore they don't trip signals to stop or show up on the dispatchers occupancy screen.
Thank you. So what you're saying is, any railroad employees who use a vehicle like that need to tell control by radio or telephone where they are all the time, because otherwise nobody would know they're on the track!
More specifically, hy-rail crews need orders just like trains.
Track-cars (the general category) require absolute block protection. Basically the towerman or dispatcher has to rope off a section of track between two control points. He makes sure the stretch of track is clear of trains, sets the signals that would allow movement into the segment to STOP and then applies "Blocking Devices" to all the "levers" that control said switches/signals. I quote those terms because most of those things are all electronic figments nowadays.
What you describe seems to be the safest way to handle it.
Those hi-rail trucks can go fast, I remember seeing one whiz by in the opposite direction on an out of service track on the Port Washington line.
Well just think, you put these rail wheels on your truck and you can try your luck on abandoned rail lines. All you gotta do is clear the brush!
That would give new meaning to "all-terrain recreation vehicle."
I think you just invented something here!
>>Those hi-rail trucks can go fast, I remember seeing one whiz by in the opposite direction on an out of service track on the Port washington line.<<
Well that's because when a hi-rail goes backwards, it has 4 or 5 REVERSE gears and 1 FORWARD gear (the wheels have to turn in the opposite direction in order to go in the proper direction).
"Well that's because when a hi-rail goes backwards, it has 4 or 5 REVERSE gears and 1 FORWARD gear (the wheels have to
turn in the opposite direction in order to go in the proper direction)."
Are you referring to something other than a standard Chevy or Ford pickup with rail wheels? Reverse gears?
I was referring to when the tires turn the wheels, the wheels will turn in the opposite direction to the powered (or driving) wheels (which are the tires). thus in normal mode, your transmission will have either 4 or 5 forward gears and one reverse, in hi-rail mode, everything becomes the opposite. It's a matter of physics.
Thanks. So in essence, when you get on the track, you're driving the pickup truck "backwards," right?
Exactly.
No No NO! You're thinking that the rubber tyres turn a seperate set of rail wheels. The rail wheels provide no traction what-so-ever. The hi-railer drives on the tracks just like a car drives on a road.
Both types are out there. The first I saw on the LIRR on Atlantic Av. had the truck moving backwards to propell the wheels forward. All the rest I've seen since that simply have the tires running on the rails, with totally separate sets of flange wheels between the front and rear wheels keeping it on the rails.
Had someone earlier suggested that the rubber tires were driving the flanged wheels? Can't say that I've ever seen that. However, anything and everything has happened in railroading. Do tell!
>>> I was referring to when the tires turn the wheels, the wheels will turn in the opposite direction to the powered (or driving) wheels (which are the tires) <<<
That seems like an unnecessarily complicated arrangement. If the tires are not providing direct traction with the rail, there would probably be a power transmission from the axle to the rail wheels with enough gearing to insure that forward gears were providing forward motion.
Tom
Hate to tell you this, but if that abandoned stretch of track has a bridge missing, you could be in for a really steep and sudden drop, with little chance of rescue due to the location being in a remote area. I often wondered why railroads would just leave tracks in place on abandoned lines. Would the salvage of the track be too costly to them? Some kind of disposition plan should be made for the ROW as well, since it could attract less than desirable elements to an area.
Agreed. In Philly, there is a stretch of abandoned track and bridges which is truly no longer needed because all SEPTA commuter rail now uses the tunnel through the Center City district. I'm wondering if that stretch of ROW, with tracks, broken bridge segments and even catenary, couldn't be redeveloped into open space - a big park on top of part of the commuter tunnel (like Boston is doing with the Big Dig) or perhaps a mix of parkland and commercial space or (you fill in what you like).
It would take some cleaning up, tracks removed, poles, wires and old signals removed, and environmental mitigation (solvent spills, trash etc.). But the location should be attractive.
We are on the same page! Instead of letting all of that property lay in waste, a good use for it should be found. How about making some of the local elected officials earn their keep by writing them and getting them to move? All venues should be explored, and if the abandoned ROW could serve as an expansion for a local transit line, guess who makes out good in the bargain? Still, if it is there, make use of it.
The Reading CC viaduct should be kept in place as it as a monument to the Reading and for future railfan exploration.
Why, The Reading Terminal is now a monument to the old railroad (in addition to being The grand Hall of The Convention Center).
I read somewhere in TRAINS magazine about hi-rail vehicles, and that the movements of those vehicles are strictly controlled by the dispatchers to avoid accidents with regular trains. They have to radio to the dispatcher for permission to enter the ROW to get to an assignment. I would not recommend any do-it-yourself modifications of a 4x4 or Ford pickup for that purpose, as the law enforcement crowd would not be very understanding. You have to think safety at all times, and a head-on isn't something on anybody's wish list, except if one is suicidal
Dang! I was about to toss a set on my Rodeo and spend a week's vacation exploring the rails ... ah, it doesn't matter, I've got a lease and I strongly suspect Isuzu Motors Acceptance would not be very understanding :-)
Did anyone get shot of the transfers.
Robert
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When these subway cars were out of service in the late 1980s why didn't the TA just rebuilt like 100 or less of those & but them back for service like for 10 more years back? I know it was difficult to rebuilt them because they were all single subway cars. Does anybody know!
The R14 and 15 were too old, the R16 too shitty and heavy. There were factions who wanted to retain 100 R22's as some were still in pretty good shape and only 30 years old. But ridership was either dropping or leveled off and the TA wanted to clean up the roster.
The GOH R30's definitely should not have been scrapped in hindsight.
The R12 and R14 used older pneumatic doors which were completely obsolete by the mid 1980's. The R15/R17/R21 & R22 were in very bad shape, and because they were single units, room for A/C equipment was not available.
Although they looked like R10's which had pneumatic doors the R12/14 had electric doors.
If the will were there to salvage the R12-22 it could have been done and they could have added A/C by putting new, larger compressors and motor generator or convertor sets thereby making them almost-R26-36. I'm sure it could have been done but then there's no limit to what things can cost so they were let go.
I will verify that they were in very bad shape; when I worked the A divison in 1970 and 71 they were terrible, the R26-33 not too good either; good trains were the exception. On my 1975 stint there they were somewhat better. OK I'll say Queens was OK and so was Pelham but they didn't have any 12, 14, 15 there. If nothing else the R26-36 kept the IRT moving even if they needed work too. Maintenance was BAD everywhere but it showed up worst on the IRT.
I figured I'd try my luck on the D today. Now there must be work on the 6th ave express tracks north of W4th as they are closed.
I took the 7 to Times Square and walked through that long, crowded passageway to 8th ave line.
I just miss a D, closes it's doors just as I get to the staircase. After waiting a little more than 15 minutes for another one I realized maybe I should've ran for it.
When the next D finally came it was packed. And it was SLOW. The Hippo moaned it's way all the way down to WTC. I've rode E's and C's on the 8th ave local and it wasn't nearly as slow. There wasn't any train in front of us, the Hippo (R68) just crawled. And it took forever to stop.
After getting to WTC and seeing the Hippo in the station (which looked out of place, for a Hippo anyway) I caught a D train back up to W4th. D's from Brooklyn were terminating there, than turning around in the dash to get to the Brooklyn bound track.
Another short but packed Hippo ride to Grand street. After looking at things mystical I went back to Grand street for the D. The uptown platform was packed, there was literally almost no room to move to the front. When the D came I squeezed on, it was packed. With no B's running the D is taking twice the load and you could see it.
At W4th many people unaware of the G.O. stayed on the train until the C/R started shutting the lights off getting everybody to leave. For stops further up 6th you have to take the F.
Going uptown on the F i saw a work train at 42nd street on the express track. I wonder what they are doing? Probably getting everything ready for the Manny B switch-over in a few months. Preparing the dash to park trains (gasp!).
Also one other note, I saw several trains with lights partially out. In fact the F I rode in had half the lights. Well the good thing about that is it gave a great view into the cab and out the window.
Everytime they mess up B and D service on the weekends it's chaos. Just wait till they do the bridge switch!
so was the 4 thats why the d was crowded up in the bronx. why does everyone call the R-68 a hippo? because it has a stocky look and sharp edged, it looks more like a rhino. the R-44/46 looks more like a hippo because its more round looking
Hippo (n): A large, heavy, lumbering animal that spends large amounts of time in the water and takes forever to get up to speed and slow down.
R-68 (n): A large, heavy, lumbering subway car that spends large amounts of time in the river tunnels and takes forever to get up to speed and slow down.
See?
Dan
but, so does the R-44/46
Keep talking. You're getting Sea Beach Fred good and pissed off. But that is par for the course. I know I'm an old warhorse, but when I was a kid, honest to goodness, all you heard about the Sea Beach was what a great line it was. When they wrote books, they wrote them about my line, when there were articles in the paper about the subway it was about the Sea Beach. It was fast, express, and those Triplexes were the cat's meow. I know I sometimes live inthe past when it comes to the New York Subway, but it really sets me off when I see what the powers-that-be have done to my favorite line.
The reason for the change was platform work on the express platforms at 42nd st. If there was work in the dash they simply would have run local. There was also chaos in Brooklyn, B runs local from 36th to CI in both directions while N runs express from 36th to CI on the B.
This is the first time in a while I have seen the 53rd / 7th ave station 100% closed.
They couldn't just run the B through there an have it switch just before 42nd and switch back at 47-50? Or they cannot do that to/from CPW?
All that chaos for just platform work. Geesh.
The Brighton a mess? Isn't mess and Brighton synonomous anyway. And then you throw the West End into. What a combo, the West End and the Brighton---the worst of everything. Long live the Sea Beach.
Sorry Fred, the Sea Beach was also a mess: Coney Island-bound N trains ran “express on the local” on the B tracks.
John.
BTW: I noticed that the B is being resignalled, with the new signals being about 30' further south than the existing ones. Does anyone know what’s happening here?
Oh well, John L., It was good while it lasted. But running express on the local B tracks doesn't sound bad to me. Any time the Sea Beach can run express, under any circumstances, is a victory for an old Sea Beach warhorse like me.
"The N runs as express. Did I hear right? Music to my ears.
express under 4th ave only
The whole B division is pretty pitiful except for the E. The N and R are among the better of the B divison lines.
The worst? Definately the A, B, D, F, and J/Z. You only have to wait several years for a train.
The A in the Rockaways: Bring a long book. Deadheads and shuttle train arrivals make waiting in the reverse-rush particularly annoying at Broad Channel.
Weekend service everywhere sucks (if waiting for a specific line), I think the only exceptions I've found are the shuttles, the 7, E, 1, G, and 6. Weekday service I find is actually quite decent with exception to the J/M/Z and the individual As (overnight, midday, and weekend As have almost the same frequency of service!).
Thank for the telling me this. I have to work the uptown part of the "D".
Robert
The whole B division is pretty pitiful except for the E. The N and R are among the better of the B divison lines.
The worst? Definately the A, B, D, F, and J/Z. You only have to wait several years for a train.
N and R better? If they're so much better, how is it that I have to wait 10 minutes for an R during the evening rush? Hm? The Never and Rarely are far too infrequent to qualify as "good." Long live the A division! (and the QB express, once they finish working on the 53rd st. tunnel and the slow speed GO is lifted)
Dan
I have yet to ride the whole system. In my past experiences, the N and R rank better than the other B division lines I have ridden. More often than not, when I take those two lines (except for the fact the N is almost always right behind the R and vice versa), service is good and I get from point A to point B easily. I've been at 49th Street after shows let out and often, a train pulls in before I can get to the head of the train. I also took an R from Court Street to 8th Street in the evening rush hour and service was fast and it wasn't crowded either.
The N and R do earn the never and rarely titles but other lines deserve it more.
Come by my place when you're in California and I'll give you a medal. An "N" fan. Amazing. As for the "R", well my childhood nightmares about the 4th Avenue Local are enough to just pass on that line.
danilm: Enough of the crap of knocking the Sea Beach. Just remember this, Sea Beach Fred is hearing and reading everything you say. But I do wonder why it takes longer for an "N" train than it does other lines. Ask the damn TA.
>>But I do wonder why it takes longer for an "N" train than it does other lines. Ask the damn TA.<<
Easy: N gets less riders than other lines.
The whole B division is pretty pitiful except for the E. The N and R are among the better of the B divison lines.
The worst? Definately the A, B, D, F, and J/Z. You only have to wait several years for a train.
N and R better? If they're so much better, how is it that I have to wait 10 minutes for an R during the evening rush? Hm? The Never and Rarely are far too infrequent to qualify as "good." Long live the A division! (and the QB express, once they finish working on the 53rd st. tunnel and the slow speed GO is lifted)
What's wrong with both of youse? First off, I don't know how Wmatagmoagh gets off saying that the N and R come more often than any of the other B division trains. F trains are scheduled with the best headways (4 mins) then the E (5 mins). The B and J/Z are pretty bad. But, The A,D and F are hardly trains that you have to wait years for. As was just said, the F is the best.
And, the A div is crap. 50 foot cars. Then, you can only run 10 car trains. That's a full 100 ft shorter than a B div train. What's the use of having frequent trains that are packed full of people.
I say this: Long live the Culver (F) and The 8th Av. express (A).
WMAT: Say What? You say the N is one of the better run lines on the B Division. Well, isn't that some welcome news, an enncouraging word amongst the debris laid out by the TA who had almost completely gutted and neglected my favorite. Maybe I should get off line now while I'm ahead before some bad news come my way.
The Brooklyn part (Coney Island to West 4th St) was just fine. My only complaint was that the railfan window in the Hippo had some optical distortion, so I was seeing two sets of rails.
I went Coney Island to West 4th St, then took the D (running on the E local) to WTC. When I got there, there were clueless passengers who wondered why the train had stopped and they weren’t going to Brooklyn.
You have to wonder whether some people are really part of the human race. On the way from Coney Island, each GO was announced at least 10 times: no stopping at W 8th St, only running to W 4th St etc. Even then, we arrived at W 4th St and the CR had to almost beg people to get off!
Yeah even with all the announcements there are many clueless souls out there. When I took the D from Grand to W4th yesterday, I was almost the only one who got off, until I saw the C/R making announcements (plus the announcements in the station) and flickering lights.
If people are confused now, there's gonna be chaos come July 1st.
Stop the confusion, don't get upset, be cool, have a grand time. Just take the Sea Beach and all your cares are gone. Why waste your time on the R, D, and B. Go N and be happy. Next stop 62nd Street and New Utrecht, and get a good look at that mini-tunnel we're going to go under. What a hoot.
I caught a R-68 (D) at 34th St/Penn Station. R-68s on the 8th Ave subway south of 59th St/Columbys Circle is a bit unusual.
Bill "Newkirk"
Well the ride seemed much slower than usual. Just proves the point at how slow the R68 Hippos really are.
I can't remember a weekend with more GOs- at least since way back on November 6-7, 1999. We rode both days, and I must be the only one who checks the diversion notices on the MTA website or the signs on the platforms- or listens to the announcements, which were actually made.
On Saturday we entered 65th Street Manhattan-bound and just missed an 'F'. A few people were standing on the platform as if they'd been there a while. There were signs announcing the absence of 'E' service this weekend. A few minutes later the 'R' came. They didn't get on, but looked impatiently down the tracks. What were they WAITING for?
At Queens Plaza, the conductor made many announcements visa ve the lack of connections to any other service. There were still many people facing the express tracks on both sides- and lifting up the orange tape to see if anything was coming!
Later we entered 72nd/Broadway downtown in time for a '1' to arrive on the express track, as per the posted GO and tape on the local side of the platform. A woman already on the train asked if it'd be stopping at 59th Street, and was given the response that there was no downtown local service; she'd have to turn around at Times Square. She disgustedly got off and looked down the local track.
(We did see a lot of people on the local platform at 66th. Apparently they got there from the crossunder at the downtown end that's funded and maintained by Lincoln Center, not the MTA.)
Yesterday we set out specifically to ride the 'N' to Coney as an express over the West End line as per the website. We took the 'F' to West 4th, noticing that at Rock Center, 42nd and 34th, people were waiting for 'B's and 'D's that were not running due to another GO. We caught the 'D' going into service at West 4th, while many other people stood on the platform apparently waiting for the 'B' despite signs and announcements (from the station PA, the train PA and platform conductors) that the 'B' would only be available at 36th Street. Many people similarly passed up our 'D' at Broadway-Laff and Grand Street as well.
We caught an 'N' (unfortunately a 68) at DeKalb, and saw many people waiting for the 'B' at Pacific. Saw an employee trying to tell these people to grab our train to 36th Street; most wouldn't move, including one man leaning right against a pillar with a service notice on it.
We pulled into 36th the same time as a 'B' going into service. Many people chose our train, falsely believing it would be making its usual stops- again, despite many announcements. One person asked "53rd?", and was told to wait for the 'R'. She stayed on the 'N'.
Of course, as soon as we turned into daylight, everyone started panicking and looking at the map- lotta good THAT'LL do. Many people cut out at 9th Avenue to turn around and start over. The Hippo we were on gave a nice, speedy run down the New Utrecht straightaway, making me wish there were a regular West End express service- alleged lack of demand notwithstanding. At 62nd, a few people bailed out to get "the right train to Kings Highway". Some people were relieved to see we WERE stopping at Bay Parkway "after all". True, but a mile south of usual.
It took quite a few minutes to cross over four tracks to get into Coney. A new operator was waiting at the inbound end of the platform, ready to take the train back out. The conductor announced that anyone wishing missed Sea Beach stops should STAY ON THIS TRAIN, which would be returning to Manhattan immediately; 86th Street next. Naturally, everyone rushed into the 'N' on the other track, and got all in an uproar when our original train pulled out.
After getting an 'F' to Fort Hamilton Parkway and nature walking in Prospect Park (which I've come to prefer to Central- much less crowded), we caught a Manhattan-bound 'D', whose conductor warned us many times would make its last stop West 4th, and clearly outlined all the options for continuing uptown.
The first comment heard after we got kicked off at W4 was "You mean this WON'T go to Queens?" That person was advised by a fellow passenger to get the 'C' or 'E' upstairs! Of course, neither one was running at all due to GO this weekend- and the 'C' stopped running ANYWHERE in Queens nine years ago!
The only other oddity that day was some people who wouldn't board theR-142A at Astor Place because "that can't be the '6'- the '6' has a green circle, not red."
Next weekend, there will be normal service through 53rd Street for the first time in months, but the Shea-Main Street bus shuttle'll be back, and no service through 60th Street at all, which reduces the 'N' in Queens and 'R' in Brooklyn to shuttles.
Not a very nice thing to do to all the mothers!
I was actually thinking about this while I was working. The MTA paid for those "digital" date and clocks on many stations (I think they're LED or something like that but anyway that's not my point) and it's just a complete waste if they're on platforms and its only use is to show dates, times, and (at least I've seen on Queens Blvd) the frequency of train service on specific lines. If that is just a test for furture projects, fine, but as of now, it's probably a multi-million dollar waste. Here's what I was thinking:
Along each platform there's a sign which shows the train, avenue of operation, its destination, and times of service. How about making those signs LED along with a sign which shows the line in its rightful color. Examples:
Let's say we're at Times Square on the 1/2/3/9
Under normal operations the led would display what it currently says on the signs. At nights the express side would change its sign to read in bold letters "No service on express platforms. Use local trains." Also the signs showing the 2 and 3 would say "Not in service" The local platform would show the red circled 1 (not showing 9 since it's not running) and a red circle 2 saying "(bold) Local service only (unbold) To Flatbush Avenue"
And if GO's are in place, you can have the orange tape over the area as they do now, but with those LED signs, people can read them knowing that at least things get updated on those signs. And here's a kicker....display them in other languages......so that it would get the attention of more than just the English reading riders.
Another example....
34 St. on the N/R
Let's say a train went OOS at 23 st. The train would arrive on the express platform. On the local side as the train is approaching...all the signs would flash (maybe with a gentle tone signaling riders to look at the signs)..."Next N will appear on express platform. Due to an emergency situation, the next few trains will be going express." Again display this in more than just 1 language. Then the express platform which before would show "Not in service" and "All trains on local platforms" would switch to display the N and R service with the word Bway Express instead of local.
Think about how it would help peoplp who look up at those signs currently and see an R at Jamaica Center on some weekends or an E on Broadway. The red and white service notices are still required for people to be aware of the problem, but do you think there would be less confusion if a "digital" sign system was set up like this so that those that ride certain trains can ride others with a little more confidence.
A final example.
Let's say the E is running to Whitehall instead of WTC and the R is not running. The signs on the platforms in Manhattan would read "(Blue Circle E {I think it'd be too confusing to display a Yellow Circled E}) Broadway Local to Jamaica Center. (in bold) R riders: please use E trains which stop at ALL normal R stations in Manhattan and Queens. THERE IS NO R SERVICE"
Again display this in all major languages spoken in NY and things should be a little easier hopefully.
I hope this topic will be at least dicussed so that I can hear other ideas about this. I'd like to see something like this happen sometime in the future.
Comments, Questions, Concerns?
=)
That's a good idea. Unfortunately, that hardly solves the problem that Howard saw. That problem is called gross ignorance.
A woman was told directly NO LOCAL SERVICE!!!! Yet, she gets off to wait for a local train. You can put up a chain link fence, and people will still try to find a way to get on the train that won't be coming.
I've heard people make clear announcements, and then watched as puzzled passengers asked questions like: Is this train going into manhattan? Did the announcement just say no? Could've swore that it did.
Once, an R-44 pulls into B'way Nassau. People get on. Then a man asks me: C train? Now, does this look like a C? Says A on the front. Says it on the side. Conductor just said: "A train". What do you think it was?
People get set in their ways and never want to change them. Suddenly, their train is changing, and now, the world must end. It's just like people asking a group of track workers if a train is coming. Do they have a light-up board in front of them? How the hell are they supposed to know if the D is on time? They have no idea. Similarly, if announcements are made, signs are posted and conductors are there, then there's adequate help for people. I could understand a person who doesn't speak english getting lost. But when it says that your train is stopping short in your language, then it's your responsibility to get up and follow directions. It's like when the 'C' was shut down for a month. People watched in bewilderment as E trains ran in brooklyn. Except at local only stops, people would wait for an 'A' even though they could take an E, which came more often, and was often fairly empty. Hell, not only were there signs, but I heard about this on the Radio, New York 1, and read it in the newspaper. If that can't help people out, that digital sign won't work either.
I think the signs are a good idea for immediate notification of service changes due to delays, GO's, etc. It could work like those signs you see on expressways. You're absolutely right that it won't help "stupid" people, but at least it will help the thinking ones.
It could work like those signs you see on expressways.
Those signs on the expressways work? I beg to differ. Having VMSs (Variable Message Signs) on the lower BQE and lower FDR warning me about long-term construction on Queens Blvd is all well and good, but not if they neglect to mention a multi-vehicle accident with fuel spill closing the ramp to the Brooklyn Bridge or the fact that the 3rd Ave/Willis Ave Bridge is closed in both directions. Jams like that can be avoided if you know about them.
Of course, there is always the temporary sign on the S/B FDR around 116 St. that alternates between 'BETWEEN APRIL 1 AND MAY 6' and 'FDR EXIT CLOSED'. See the problem -- it neglects to mention which exit is closed.
Being one of those people making announcements, I can guarantee that the stories told above are true, because I've witnessed them all. Ican even go one better - I've watched them staring down the local track waiting for a train that isn't running, and NEVER NOTICING that there is NO RAIL on the roadbed. When they get that stupid, all you can do is leave them there; hopefully they'll figure out what's going on before 5:00am Monday morning when service resumes.
Something similar to what we have in DC.
Note: The DC System was delayed 4 years and even after that, it took another years before the signs started to go into testing. They are still having problems now. And, when there was a major delay, the Metro Managers couldn't get the signs to display the emergency information.
Great idea except in between trains, it should say (we are at 77th Street BTW):
< 6 >PELHAM BAY PARKLEXINGTON LCLPELHAM THRU-EXP2 MINUTES
During this countdown, the GO info would run. Let's say during this time period, the express is being diverted onto the local. After the announcement above was displayed, the screens could change to say this:
ATTENTION PASSENGERSDUE TO A SERVICE DIVERSION,EXPRESS TRAINS WILL MAKE ALLLOCAL STOPS TO 125 ST
What do you think of this?
Once again:
The idiots will still scratch their heads, look at the sign pretending to read and then ask: Is the 4 going express? When you say no, they'll go look down the tracks, watching for the lights of a train.
I posted before I read your response and I will quote whoever answered it.
The average passenger should notice the big green and orange LEDs flashing at them. Remember, a big LED is more captivating than a small red and white piece of paper on a column, probably obstructed in the first place.
The money might be worth it but the cheap GO signs do work to some extent. Again, look at how much trouble WMATA has had with these things.
Beautiful.
THanks. It is great in DC (when it works).
Those signs also periodically give safety announcements (like, "stand back from the platform edge, etc etc"), accompanied by an automated announcement recording played very intelligibly over a P.A. system. At least, they do that at Bowling Green station.
I've actually been in the N/R part of Union Square and had those signs display real G.O. information. Once, it was the first weekend they ran trains through the 63 St connector to Queens Blvd, and it displayed the relevant E/F/R diversion information (again, accompanied by the same announcement made over a P.A. system). Another time it was during the months when uptown N/R trains ran express from Canal to 34th, and the signs and announcements indicated that diversion as well. However, I haven't heard any recently, or at any other stations. (Then again, I tend to be stuck in Union Square late at night when I have nothing to do but stare at those LED signs for 20 minutes.) And, I've never seen them give real-time information, only information that was obviously preprogrammed.
I don't understand why these multi-color LED signs are a separate system from the small red LED signs that tell you when a train is approaching on a particular track. They couldn't get the two systems to talk?
At a few places they have replaced the old red sign, like over here at Myrtle Wyckoff where on the mezzanines they inform you whether it's the Manhattan or Queens bound M or Manhattan or Canarsie bound L. They even make a cheap bullet with a yellow lwtter in a red circle. In full color, this would be cool.
As for why the new end signs are red only, I guess they've determined that the low red/high yellow range is the most visible. They should have used the amber for the IRT signs to avoid the confusion, but perhaps they wanted red as the only color (beside the white headlights) associated with the oncoming train (sort of like the tail lights)
Who is going to monitor the signs and change them everytime a new message needs to be displayed? The signs that tell you when an uptown or downtown train is coming are activated by the trains going over a signaling device in the track. (like the gates at grade crossings) Also most people ignore ALL SIGNS AND ANNOUNCEMENTS because it is easier to ask then pay attention or read the signs.
The confusion alot of these ignorant riders cause scares me more than the G.O.'s themselves.
I'm sorry I missed it. I rode a bit up north on the 1 and the A and there were no disruptions there, except a not-in-service 1 through 168th followed by an in-service train that skipped 157th and 145th (passengers waiting at those stations must have been thrilled to see not one but two trains pass them).
Why would someone expect the D to run to Queens?
When I looked last week (after the latest GO's were added), there was no mention of a GO on the B. Now there is -- anybody know when it was added?
Next weekend, you're right about the N, but the R is simply running through 63rd instead of 60th.
You evidently haven't read the Train Rider's Code, subtitled "How any Intelligent Person can become a Goose."
Rule #1. When you get on a train, you turn off your brain.
Rule #2. Once you've learned where a route goes, it's yours forever, and don't let anyone tell you different.
The Jersey City Landmarks Conservancy celebrates National Historic
Preservation Week 2001 with historical walking tours throughout Jersey City.
Saturday, May 12: Bergen Arches and Erie Cut Walking Tour. Light hiking.
Please bring a small water bottle and wear boots. Meet at the Hamilton Park
Gazebo, Jersey Ave. and 8th St. 10am to 12pm. The Bergen Arches and Erie
Cut, once part of the mighty Erie Railroad, are now a vast urban rain
forest. Walk through a long narrow corridor of folding cliffs and
moss-covered concrete arches.
Sunday, May 13: Historical Heights and Palisades Cliff Walking Tour. Meet at
the Riverview-Fisk Park Gazebo, Ogden Ave., east of Palisade Ave. 10am to
12pm. Co-sponsored by www.savethepalisades.org. Explore Washington Village,
an historic Heights neighborhood at the top of the wondrous Palisades.
Stroll across one of Jersey City's last cobblestone streets.
Monday, May 14: Light Rail Historical Tour. Meet at the Exchange Place Light
Rail Station. 7pm to 8:30pm. Co-sponsored by Fleet Bank, One Exchange Place.
Ride through once-forgotten historic neighborhoods. Observe venerable
architectural and engineering monuments erected by Jersey City's master
builders.
Tuesday, May 15: Harsimus Cove Historic District Walking Tour. Meet at the
Grove Street PATH Station. 7pm to 8:30pm. Co-sponsored by the Harsimus Cove
Association. Experience 19th century Jersey City as reflected in Harsimus
Cove's old brick and brownstone townhouses and churches.
Thursday, May 17: Jersey City Landmarks Conservancy Preservation Awards
Ceremony and Reception at the Loew's Jersey Theatre, Journal Square. Open to
the public. 6pm to 7pm. Historical slide show sponsored by the Jersey City
Historical Project to follow. The Conservancy will recognize outstanding
examples of local historic preservation as demonstrated in Old Bergen
Church, the Hamilton Park Foundry, Fleet Bank (Exchange Place), and various
commercial streetscapes projects by the Jersey City Economic Development
Corporation. The Theodore Conrad Memorial Award will be presented to Colin
Egan and the Friends of the Loew's.
Friday, May 18: Loew's Jersey Theatre Tour, Journal Square. 7pm to 8:30pm.
Co-sponsored by the Friends of the Loew's. Stand under the restored marquee
of this stunning Italian Baroque movie palace, circa 1929. Walk through a
soaring golden interior adorned with countless cherubs, murals, marble
pillars and over 3,000 seats.
Saturday, May 19: Historic Bergen District Walking Tour. Meet at the
Kearon-Hempenstall Gallery, 536 Bergen Ave. 12pm to 3pm. Co-sponsored by the
Kearon-Hempenstall Gallery and St. Paul's Church. Explore Jersey City's most
preserved Victorian neighborhood near the century-old Lincoln Park, designed
by renowned landscape architects Langton & Lowrie.
Sunday, May 20: Central Railroad of New Jersey Terminal Tour, Liberty State
Park. Meet at the Exchange Place Light Rail Station at 10am or the Terminal
at 11am. Tour runs from 11am to 1pm. Hosted by Michael Timpanaro, CRRNJ
Historian. See the last of the three great train and ferry terminals to
grace Jersey City's eastern shore.
All tours are rain or shine and free of charge.
The Jersey City Landmarks Conservancy is a non-profit 501(c)(3) organization
formed to preserve, protect and promote Jersey City's historic sites,
buildings, objects and districts. Among our activities, the Landmarks
Conservancy is leading a major historic preservation campaign for the 1906
Hudson & Manhattan Railroad Powerhouse, which is currently being considered
for entry into the State & National Registers of Historic Places. Please
visit our website at www.jclandmarks.org.
Last week I was in New York City for a week due to a death in the family. I did manage a day away by myself during that week and went for some exploring on the subway. Last time I did that was about 22 years ago.
Some observations:
I am partial to the Brighton line as I was raised in Sheepshead Bay. I did get a Q express to Manhattan- at least I can see out of the front car because you can't do the same on the D local (I tried). Anyways it was great to see the Brighton Express running! The frequency of the trains was great as compared to the sorry system we have here in San Francisco.
I transferred at Atlantic to the 2 for a spin up the West Side - and I got one of those "redbirds" (as I believe they are called) so I can see out the front car. I love the 2 express in Manhattan. I wonder if that is the fastest segment in the subway, especially between 42 and 72 streets.
Since I was also going to a Yankee game (don't fear I am a Giants fan) I got on the 4 train on the return from the game. Disappointing! You can only see through a small window into the conductor's car on my trip back to Brooklyn - not like the Q or 2. Also I had to wait for 4 4 trains to go by until one went back to Brooklyn - the rest stopped at Bowling Green. And with all those 4 trains in service they went so slow! I should have taken the D back but knew I wouldn't get the view as the Q or 2.
I vote for the Q and 2 as the most fun. I hope when the MTA gets new cars you can at least see out of them in front. I do plan to go to NYC once or twice a year now and hope to do some more exploring later.
ScottinSF
Railfan window is becoming a thing of the past. Enjoy it while you can!
Go to Shea and take the 7 exp in the PM that is fun {redbirds and railfan windows} especially the ride above 111 St
Does anyone know why this track is being built north of the broad channel station to almost the north cannel bridge.
CBTC testing for the R-143. Long stretch and no stations for railfans to watch / take pictures from (the main problem with trying this on the Sea Beach). Refitting an existing unused track elsewhere would have been annoying should a G.O. require its use.
"CBTC testing for the R-143. Long stretch and no stations for railfans to watch / take pictures from (the main problem with
trying this on the Sea Beach). Refitting an existing unused track elsewhere would have been annoying should a G.O. require its
use."
I guess this is a stupid question to ask, but have railfans really been getting in the way (that is, actually interfering with TA operations)? I can understand MTA people sometimes losing patience with people, but is it that bad?
No, I don't think they (we) get in the way or anything, but it must be distracting. Anyway it's never good to have witnesses should the train go out of control and de-rail (plus if it happens by a station or on an el customers and nearby people could get injured). The Rockaways may as well be siberia, even if the train explodes no one would notice. Plus the Rockaway line is 100% straight rail for the part with the third track(just like the Dyre). You can do brake tests and whatnot with better accuracy, curves throw things like that off.
Thank you - good points.
I wish them luck with it! We need the cars!
Too bad they couldn't do it from Liberty Avenue to Jamaica Avenue.
Only the NIMBY's and drugees would be watching.
And after R143 testing is done, the track can be used for relaying Rockaway shuttles. No more travelling all the way to JFK to switch the train over.
The shuttlen only goes a little past broad channel on a short fourth track band the back. So that other track will serve no purpose once the test is over.
The other track can be used for layups.
Unless Keanu Reeves needs it for another Speed movie...
This time they should stay away from Speed and do it about Cocaine this time.
Hardy-har-har...:0)
This time they should stay away from Speed and do it about Cocaine this time.
I'll turn myself in to the Department of Redundancy Department I'll turn myself in.
Keanu Reeves ... IS ... Casey Jones and the HH train ... Whoa-oah ... I can see it now ... Keanu Reeves would say, "Hath not a dude eyes? If you prick us, do we not get bummed? If we eat bad guacamole, do we not blow chunks?" Hot lunch ... Excellent! :)
Hey - there's an idea!!! Hiding system expansions under the guise of 'testing" :)
How about:
Electrify the Port Jefferson line to "test" the M-7s...
Building the 2nd ave line to "test" methods of renovating / rebuilding subway stations....
Installing moveable frog switches through Queens and Nassau interlockings to "test" them...
Building a light rail line somewhere to "test" the concept...
Installing air conditioning at Grand Central, 14 street, or Brooklyn Bridge to "test" it...
Opening up BOTH sides of the Manny B to "test" the bridge...
Running Low Vs or Triplexes as a "test" before "ordering" a new "low technology train"....
Installing a third track between Bellerose and Hicksville to "test" the concept...
This could be the start of something big, guys ;)
Installing air conditioning at Grand Central, 14 street, or Brooklyn Bridge to "test" it...
There already is air conditioning at Grand Central.
Running Low Vs or Triplexes as a "test" before "ordering" a new "low technology train"....
EWWW!!!!! What do you want to do, force people to take busses and cabs?
But otherwise I think this "test" thing is great.
There already is air conditioning at Grand Central.
Not that you can feel it unless
- you are standing right under the vent,
- there are no trains in the station, AND
- the platform is not packed solid
So if a train discharges no passengers, and everyone on the platform gets on, there is some benefit to the AC.
(CBTC testing for the R-143. Long stretch and no stations for railfans to watch / take pictures from (the main problem with trying this on the Sea Beach). Refitting an existing unused track elsewhere would have been annoying should a G.O. require its use.)
My understanding is that CBTC tracks will be fitted with regular signals for regular trains. Assuming CBTC works, the regular signals would not be replaced once their 50 year life is up and all non-CBTC cars have been scrapped.
Perhaps they just wanted a place to install without taking yet another track out of service.
Here's an article about CBTC signalling and such.
http://www.railwayage.com/jun00/cbtc.html
I could've sworn it was said that CBTC will be installed after the R143s are delivered.
This track you are referring to is being constructed as a relay track for rockaway service. The work order was on the TA website under Capital Improvements.
The testing for R143MUs was an afterthought. The original purpose of the third track was for a relay track.
This may be a dumb question, but why couldn't they use the lower level of the Culver line instead of building a whole new track?
-- David
Chicago, IL
That's a test track.
Were these the same? What happened to the Transit Commission or the Department of Traffic?
The major cluster of NIMBYs is in Rego Park, their primary concerns are safety and noise. So, how about enclosing the portions near their backyards with walls and a ceiling? After the line crosses Metropolitan ave the residential portion ends. It then goes between a hospital and home depot (no complaints), it would have to go under (New tunnel) a parking lot, Union TPK, and the Crescent Apts park and parking lot. Emerge in Forest Park, no one should complain since there is already a rail line through the park. Line crosses Jamaica ave, then enters an area with a few houses but since it is on an embankment no one should complain. End at Woodhaven, school bus company plus my doubts on the structural integrity of the concrete viaduct to Ozone pk make further extension too annoying. As it is all the bridges would have to be replaced, the entire line re-ballasted and have plants removed.
BTW: My history teacher is the campaign manager of one of the Rockaway / Howard Beach city councilman candidates (forgot which). The guy came in to our history class for one full period, and we had an opportunity to ask questions. I inquired about the Rockaway line, but all he said was that "Rockaway residents have transportation concerns that need to be addressed, and if elected I will address them." Spoken like a true politician. I wonder if he even knows about the line.
You've suggested some things that appear like they could be "do-able." Putting the train in a box is a good idea, esp. when closer to residences (assuming you don't put it underground).
This is not for the immediate future. But it could happen. Give it ten years (enough time to get the 63rd St LIRR tunnel in operation), a new Capital Plan with an opportunity to suggest the project at hearings, and see how it fares when competing with other projects. If successful, it could be operating in the 2015-20 time-frame (??)
JailhouseDoc had a point, though. While we're waiting for budget and capacity, what do we do with that decrepit ROW? It is pretty disgusting.
I've got a better idea. The train goes THRU the parking lot. All automobiles should make way for the mighty train. Trains were here first. Any piece of railroad not being used is a sin. They should all be reactivated. I, personally, would kill to find a place to live where a train goes through my backyard. I'd have NO trouble sleeping.
Flat bed trucks didn't hall cargo in the latter half of the 19th century. Steam engines did. Without trains, this country wouldn't have gotten this far. And without subways, our cities would never have been able to grow.
Sorry about all the preaching. I just felt the need to vent. If those guys can speak their minds about making weed legal downtown, I can speak mine. :)
Tony
I've got a better idea. The train goes THRU the parking lot. All automobiles should make way for the mighty train. Trains were here first. Any piece of railroad not being used is a sin. They should all be reactivated. I, personally, would kill to find a place to live where a train goes through my backyard. I'd have NO trouble sleeping.
If the city actually were going to revive the line, it probably could force the owners of that parking lot to move it.
"If the city actually were going to revive the line, it probably could force the owners of that parking lot to move it."
There are, apparently, illegal "squatters" who helped themselves to MTA ROW along that line. If the line were revived, MTA would have to spend time and $$ kicking them out.
>>> There are, apparently, illegal "squatters" who helped themselves to MTA ROW along that line. <<<
Are they "illegal squatters," or did the ROW revert to the owners of the property due to lack of use? Most ROW's (and streets) are easements over the adjoining private property rather than property owned by the railroad. If not used by the railroad, the property owners have a right to use it. How long it takes for an easement to expire due to non use depends on state law.
For a long time in Los Angeles, there was a set of railroad tracks in the center of Santa Monica Boulevard all the way east to La Brea Avenue with unused spurs branching off to movie studios and former manufacturing facilities. Once a month, in the middle of the night, the railroad that owned the ROW would send an engine and one boxcar down the length of the ROW (at 5mph) to assert its continuing use. Some time in the early ‘80s the tracks were paved over, but the city had to repurchase the ROW because it was still in use. If the railroad had not continued using the ROW, the city could have paved over the tracks without compensation.
Tom
Thank you for that clarification. Yes, it's entirely possible that is the case. If it is, MTA would have to negotiate the reacquisition of ROW, or take it over by eminent domain (and comensate the property owners).
The entire RoW belongs to the city, maybe even the TA. That was part of the deal is purchasing it from the PRR. The TA simply chose not to run trains on it.
Are they "illegal squatters," or did the ROW revert to the owners of the property due to lack of use? Most ROW's (and streets) are easements over the adjoining private property rather than property owned by the railroad. If not used by the railroad, the property owners have a right to use it. How long it takes for an easement to expire due to non use depends on state law.
It is true that "squatters" can acquire title to unused property through the process known as adverse possession. Most states, however, make specific exceptions for railroad property - in other words, no one can claim title to even an unused ROW. I don't know if New York law has such an exception.
For a long time in Los Angeles, there was a set of railroad tracks in the center of Santa Monica Boulevard all the way east to La Brea Avenue with unused spurs branching off to movie studios and former manufacturing facilities.
I saw traces of that line last February, near Century City. Couldn't figure out what it was.
That line used to bring boxcars with supplies to a bakery that made Wonder Bread - in Beverly Hills! The bakery (a unit of Continental Baking Corp, if I recall correctly) was the last manufacturer left in Beverly Hills. In the 1980's, they switched to truck deliveries.
>>> It is true that "squatters" can acquire title to unused property through the process known as adverse possession. Most states, however, make specific exceptions for railroad property <<<
To obtain title by adverse possession, one must be occupying the property in an "open and notorious" fashion without the owner's permission. Usually the occupier perfects the title by paying the property taxes for several years without protest from the legal owner.
The trans-continental railroads, which were given huge tracts of empty land to induce them to build the railroads, were exempted from losing that land to adverse possession. Because Long Island land titles were pretty well settled before any railroad was built there, it is probable (although I have not researched the matter) that easements were used for ROW.
>>> I saw traces of that line last February, near Century City <<<
The part you saw had its own ROW beside the road. In West L.A. it ran down a wide median in the middle of Santa Monica Boulevard, farther east, it was on the street itself with the yellow centerline between the tracks.
Tom
So I pose this question. If I went to the unused Rockaway ROW and took some rails, third rail and cover, plus an electrical tower with me am I stealing?
Yup, as I would be for pilfering an old light fixture from the abandoned Metropolitan Ave. J station in 1987.
Nobody better rat me out.
How did you get up there ?
One stairwell at Metro was kept intact, although it was locked. This lock was usually vandalized, so enterance was not a problem. The old mezzanine was a haven for drug dealers and prostitutes at this time. I believe there was vast community pressure to remove the entire structure, which wasn't accomplished until early 1991. I actually walked from Metropolitan Ave. to the stub end at Supthin Blvd. along the catwalk of the Manhattan bound track. Even though this part of the line was severed from the main line where the turnoff to Archer Ave. is at, both the 3rd rail and signal system was functioning. All the signals were red.
The same question could be asked about the Polo Grounds Shuttle remmants.
Who owns it? The City? MTA? Does anyone inspect the tunnel to determine if there has been any physical deterioration? (The 2nd Ave tunnel remnants are inspected every 2 weeks). What if there is a tunnel collapse - who is responsible for the damage, especially to the dwellings that might be above such a collapse? A large group of SubTalkers took three trips there in 1999 and 2000; were we trespassing? On who's "property"?
--Mark
You are talking about "adverse possession", a legal term that to laymen like ourselves means that "if you use it long enough and the legal owner offers no objection or intervention, it eventually becomes yours".
As a lifetime New Yorker who lived through the horrors of the Robert Moses era and as an avid reader and frequent re-reader of "The Power Broker" by Robert Caro, my thesis is that a "person" (remember, corporations are "persons") who once was or still is a Moses era conspirator who then sat on property and easement rights in order to demand a King's ransom from the taxpayers (all of Moses' cronies knew well in advance where the roads were going and purchased the properties that would have to be condemned, making great profits on the difference), there just might be a "person", partnership or consortium sitting on the rights to use this right-of-way or some essential easements until there is an absolute Eminent Domain demand for their use. Historically, this invloves very politically connected families working under discrete corporate relationships. True, the Rockaway right-of-way has been unused for a long time, but Henry Flagler and his interests purchased a lot of useless swamp along his new railroad a long time ago too. Alligators were his citizens. That's now called "Florida" as we northerners know it. The barrier to the use of the old Long Island Railroad easement might well be placed at the highest levels of our political and social leaders. Don't lose any sleep over this, but do know that it happened with almost every major highway in and anywhere near the Big Apple.
Personally, I feel if anyone who lives near the ROW is concerned with train noise, they can move. The ROW was there when they bought their house, so they can't whine about it now. Active trains might remove the other hazards of this old ROW, including rats, homeless people, rampaging teenagers, drug dealers and endless amounts of garbage.
Agreed, but if you do not get the elected officials to earn their keep, they will do nothing about the problem.
That's an illegal park on the RoW (No dept of Parks signs), and a parking lot. They could be gone in 30 days.
Could a few of you please rank these lines from best to worst with best being the most interesting to railfan?
7 (whole line)
A (to 207th)
1 (to 242nd)
D (to 205th)
In addition, which way is it best to take the #7 express? Inbound or outbound? And how far is the Woodside LIRR station from the Woodside #7 station?
Thanks, in advance.
The A and D are all underground and thus suck.
The 7 is great, and the 1 is OK. You should definitely do both.
As for the two Woodsides, they are one above the other.
And if you can take the J Line, great EL line,The 7 is good also.The 2 line is good also-great in the Bronx slow and tedious in Brooklyn.Take the 4 uptown dramatic view coming out of the tunnel of Yankee Stadium,D line going across Manhattan Bridge, lousy railfan window.The 3 line to Newlots Avenue good quick EL run, split tracks like the J Line,if you luck out try to catch the A line with a railfan window to the Rockaways, very very long trip from 207th Street.The rebuilt Franklin Avenue subway is very good one track so you can take the same train back. For the R-142a's. You can go over to Pelham to catch one, best times is doing the week during rush hours thats when you can catch them best.Or you can see the R-142A's and R-142's at Unionport Yard or go to Warburton Avenue in Yonkers, sneak into the Parking lot and you can see the R-142A's ready for deliveries parked on the tracks soon you might see the R-143'sthere also.
Since when is the J great?
I did it from Suphtin Blvd. to ENY and it was so SLOW!
One of my favorites is the Dyre Ave. (5) line. Make sure to ride a redbird. Redbirds on the 7 will be there for at leat another year and a half.
The #1 sucks. I tried this on Friday: three trains with no window whatsoever.
If the rolling stock changes, the #1 is interesting…
John.
OK. Once and for all. CAN YOU RIDE THE 6 AROUND THE CITY HALL LOOP OR NOT! In the Daily News today, they did and article about City Hall Station. They said all New Yorkers should ride by it. Now, there are some motormen who get pretty miffed if you try to stay on. If you CAN ride around the loop, what do you tell a motorman who wants you off? Can I get a copy of some official document to show them?
I believe it is now non-revenue trackage so no, you can't ride around. This brings us back to the issue of the bedchecks at loops and relays. In all honesty, bedchecks should only be done on trains deadheading to the yard. If a train is going to enter revenue service within a few minutes, there is no reason to make the ignorant straphanger who didn't realize the train was out of service leave.
Now, the City Hall loop is an exception. Due to its proximity to City Hall, I can understand the security threats associated with a terrorist riding an out of service 6 train but even so, the odds are pretty unlikely as long as the MTA doesn't publicize the semi-revenue service around the loop.
How would a terrorist be able to bring enough firepower into the train to blast through it, let alone the tunnel.
Maybe when a terrorist government gets the bomb it give a backpack sized unit to somebody, but would that even work?
If a terrorist government gets the bomb, they wouldn't bomb City Hall. It's insignificant in the international scheme of things.
Everyone talks about City Hall. Does anyone realize the 7 train passes practically right under the UN on its way to Queens. Granted, it is VERY deep. But if we're talking about nukes, is it so unconceivable that a terrorist could carry a bomb big enough to do some damage? He would have to estimate when the train was under the right street, and would need a VERY powerful device, but if we're going to be paranoid about City Hall, lets be PARANOID.
NYC needs to lighten up. City Hall was NY's first subway station, and all should be able to enjoy it. Maybe when the reincarnation of Hitler leaves City Hall this November, they'll let train buffs in.
hah you people dont knnow how easy it is to rode the loop on the 6
"hah you people dont knnow how easy it is to rode the loop on the 6"
Oh I think we do, SeveN! I have ridden the city hall loop twice that way...u just have to be there when the station people are cool about it. -Nick
not even, just stay on the train, or go to the last car and while the people from last car are getting off you run in so the C/R dont see you on camera, boy I rode that shit like mad times, a C/R told me how to ride it, thank you kind Conductor.
I always thought Rudy “I live in a bunker” Guiliani had a vastly overinflated sense of importance.
I can’t wait until his successor turns City Hall into the piece of the Transit Museum that it always should have been!
John.
But if we're talking about nukes, is it so unconceivable that a terrorist could carry a bomb big enough to do some damage?
Once you start talking about nukes, you move into a whole different realm. When you talk nukes, closing the City Hall loop wouldn't help. Brooklyn Bridge station would be close enough - even for a small one.
If you're talking a small grade portable nuclear device, closing the City Hall loop wouldn't help the Union Square station. :-)
I'm NO fan of Rude Rudy but comparing him to Hitler serves only to discredit your position.
just because he saved this city from Hell is no reason to call him hitler, dont matter, once he is gone, Im sure there will be less Transit Cops.
Hey--you may not like Giuliani's attitude but don't go calling him a Nazi. I'm an admitted leftist and I still like what he's done with the city, for the most part. Ten years ago railfanning would have been a total impossibility due to 1) Crime and 2) My mother worried about 1.
Dan
This sounds a little like the business about witholding information about whether or not a series of subway cars will recieve a midlife rebuild (GOH) due to terrorisim possibilities. Again, simplicity prevails - anybody wanting to blow up a subway car will just stroll into the subway car and leave a briefcase or a bag with a bomb in it and stroll off again and anybody wanting to blow up the City Hall would just leave a briefcase or a car containing a bomb by City Hall and blow it up that way.
Lastly, if anybody was intent on blasting the City Hall subway station it would be suicide to ride through the loop on the train with the bomb - the bomb would just be left on the train by a departing passenger at the last revenue service station and timed to go off in the loop. In this case, there wouldn't be any passengers on the train at all breaking the no passengers rule, yet the bomb would still go off anyways and wouldn't be prevented by this rule.
Most of these 'security concerns' out there seem to be half baked overdone excuses for being silly when you consider them from a strictly logical, tactical, utilitarian perspective.
Now we'll return to our regularly scheduled paranoia...
-Robert King
You're not allowed to, but here's an idea: Every time I always see some confused people remain on the train. Simply sit there and ignore the last stop announcement. Don't hide or anything. If the train will be going OOS into the little yard there or for any other reason they will check, so don't worry about being trapped. If anyone says "Get out last stop" (unlikely) act like you didn't know and get off, go back to Canal, try again. Every time I try this I get through on the first try for both City Hall and South Ferry. Have a walkman on, they'll really believe you didn't hear the announcement.
Darn, I should have thought of that!
I don't usually take the 6, but did a few weeks ago to Brooklyn Bridge - on an R142 yet. I was really tempted to stay on it, but chickened out.
Sure enough, not two minutes after the train left, back it was, on the uptown platform. (I knew it was the same train, based on the car numbers.) Could have seen the oldest station in the newest set of cars, but oh well.
Actually, the walkman might not have worked as an excuse; either the conductor or T/O flashed the lights several times before closing the doors.
>>> either the conductor or T/O flashed the lights several times before closing the doors <<<
That doesn't matter, New Yorkers rarely react to such subtle hints.
Tom
yea they do that to scare off people, just stay on and enjoy the ride
You law breaking punk, graffiti artist mahem driven sucka...
DHO!
HAHAHA I hear that man, and you know you love it
yeah baby,when I come back we gotta run the loop. If anbody says we can't, we'll just show them our badges, from NYPD Blue and say Sipowicz told us we had to be here. If they don't like it, they can take it up with Tony Soprano or speak to D.A. Jack Mcoy.
AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH, what would we do without Television...
Sometime last week they flashed the lights after they closed the doors... Indeed a guy with a walkman on finally noticed but it was too late to get out... or... was it someone pretending to be trapped?
>>>OK. Once and for all. CAN YOU RIDE THE 6 AROUND THE CITY HALL LOOP OR NOT! In the Daily
News today, they did and article about City Hall Station. They said all New Yorkers should ride by it.
Now, there are some motormen who get pretty miffed if you try to stay on. If you CAN ride around the
loop, what do you tell a motorman who wants you off? Can I get a copy of some official document to
show them? <<<<
I wouldn't try to enter any non-revenue areas. There are some exceptions, but I think MTA personnel take a dim view of railfans...I think they use the word 'foamers' to describe subway/rail enthusiasts. That just seems to be the way it is.
www.forgotten-ny.com
Okay, I checked the bulletin board today while at work and low and behold a bulletin dated April 30, 2001 states you can ride around the City Hall loop. That is the only relay position in the system that passengers are allowed in.
Crews don't like people riding through the area because of people robbing and assaulting mostly C/R's plus the fact that if the train breaks down you have to escort the passengers back to the station which means removal of power from the 3rd rail.
Crews don't like people riding through the area because of people robbing and assaulting mostly C/R's plus the fact that if the train breaks down you have to escort the passengers back to the station which means removal of power from the 3rd rail.
Umm, how does this differ from anywhere else, when there are few passengers in the train?
I don’t want to sound unsympathetic, and I absolutely don’t want to see a CR (or anyone else for that matter) assaulted or robbed.
I fail to see why the TA (and employees) doesn’t treat loops/shunts where the train is out of service for seconds or minutes just like revenue trackage.
Here’s hoping that the same logic can be applied to the Lex short turns at Bowling Green/South Ferry.
John.
From my understanding most criminals don't want witnesses. Would you rob a store with people in it or one with just the counter person, how about mugging a single person walking down the street or a group of people?
I think I answered your question about loops and shunts/relays in my original post. Here are a couple of examples why these tracks are "off limits"
Sit on a 5 train in B loop and a 4 train goes BIE or has a sick passenger at Bowling Green. I am sure you would love to be sitting there for half an hour give or take ten minutes
The City Hall loop is different because crews can key people off to the platform of the City Hall station and show the the way up to the street.
Granted that this could happen.
However, how does this differ from the splendid 3/4 hour I spent once (around 1985) in the 60th St Tunnel in an R from Astoria? I don’t know what happened, but things were moving through the tunnel in those days very slowly when they moved at all.
Stuck in a train can happen anywhere. At the South Ferry loop, I presume that there is still an exit from the unused platform.
John.
Could a few of you please rank these lines from best to worst with best being the most interesting to railfan?
7 (whole line)
A (to 207th)
1 (to 242nd)
D (to 205th)
Also,which way is it best to take the #7 express? Inbound or outbound? How far is the Woodside LIRR station from the Woodside #7 station?
Will I still be able to catch redbirds on the #7 in September?
Thanks, in advance.
Best way to take the 7 express would have to be inbound, though that may be because I so rarely get to do so.
The Woodside LIRR station's mezzanine is the same as the 7s mezzanine, go up to get to the 7 or down to get to the LIRR. The ticket office and token booth are somewhat close (I wonder why they didn't combine them?).
Redbird's on the 7 in September? Definitely!
I rank:
1 to 242
7 (whole line)
Central Park West (both D and A)
D to 205 (express)
A to 207
D to 205 (local)
The 1 goes outside for 125st then back under, 168st looks like something out of a history book + elevator-only exit/transfer, 181st is a modernized version of 168, 191 is deepest station in system followed by Dyckman which is elevated, then 207st overhaul shops to the right, cross the Broadway drawbridge (trains on top, cars on bottom), over the MNRR Hudson line (station one block away) at Marble Hill, yard to the left just before reaching 242.
Of note on the 7 is that the line emerges at Hunterspoint adjacent to the Amtrak, NJT, and LIRR line (view of Hunterspoint ave station), cross-platform transfer with the N at Queensboro plaza (plus the track crossover), crossing Sunnyside yards, concrete viaduct, crossing the LIRR again at Woodside, on the express flyover great view of Shea Stadium (left) and Corona yard and LIRR(right), cross some water after Shea Stadium and duck back into water. Main st station one block from LIRR's Main st.
Central Pk west is great, longest express run with exception to the Sea Beach. Bilevel with each level containing one platform, one local track, and one express track until 103st. There, northbound expresses do something weird and one can see both levels at once. Miraculously turns into a normal express-local arrangement until 125st. Then, line becomes 6 track for 135 and then B and D go down to a 3 track lower level while A and C go up for a 4 track upper level.
The D to 205 is kinda boring except it is a nice long express run (which goes great with CPW), plus the only long 3 track segment of the IND. Several stations undergoing rehab. Reccommend taking Bx12 at Fordham to the A at 207 to avoid ending up on a long boring local run back.
A to 207. Good only in that it has bi-directional express service, plus at Dyckman st gains a couple of extra tracks. Express tracks after 145 are hidden from the local. At 168 you have express tracks on the outside and local on the inside, plus the transfer to the 1/9 which you may want to use after doing the 1/9 to get a fast ride back to midtown.
My advice is, if you're doing a one-time railfaning in Sept., do as much as possible. Here are my pics.
Q to Coney Island, whole line.
A to Far Rockaway, whole line.
7 Express, whole line, either direction
4,5 Lexington Avenue Express, 125th Street to Bowling Green.
J to Jamaica Center, whole line.
There will most likely still be redbirds on the 7 in Sept. The two Woodside stations are within walking distance of each other. Keep in mind that some LIRR trains do not stop at Woodside. The 7 express is great both ways. Take it to Times Sq. from Fushing around 11:30AM, then take it back. This way, you get express in both directions!
Have Fun! If you need a guide, I'd be happy to ride with you. I've always wanted to be a tour guide. I'm dead serious.
Tony :)
Rate the best subway line. My Site
The J is not that great. I've done it from Suphtin to ENY.
I agree, the only part I enjoy is ENY to Marcy if running full express (break 45 MPH on an el!), and the Williamsburg bridge. If one is lucky enough to wrong-rail over the bridge the train actually cruises along at a decent speed (35) because there are no signals (therefore no timers). Don't have too much fun, an assload of WDs set to 20 awaits on the wrong-railing downgrade so no one confuses the J with a roller coaster.
If you can, combine that Lex run with a rush-hour express on the #5 in the Bronx. Even better, see if you can get a 5 Bronx Thru Express to Dyre Ave. at Franklin Avenue in Brooklyn. That'll give you a fairly speedy express run in THREE boroughs, two underwater tunnels, curves on the lower part of the Lex mainline, the long Upper East Side express tunnel, complex trackage around 125 St., the S-curve between 135 and 149 Sts., long elevated express trip in the Bronx, the yards and flyover at East 180 St., and finally the nice run up to Dyre Ave. You'll be passing through the first subway stations to be built in Brooklyn and the Bronx, and the southern portion of the original 1904 IRT subway (Brooklyn Bridge to a point south of 42 St.). Be sure to look for the abandoned 18 St. station just north of 14 St.-Union Square (not to mention that evil curve).
Wanna talk about curves? One of the most brutal el curves is a Simpson Street on the 2,5.
Which our prospective railfanner will also encounter if he takes my advice. As well as the bend at West Farms/East Tremont.
Is it more brutal than the curve at York-Dauphin on The Market-Frankford el? Because the trains have to go extra SLOW if they don't want not only a derailment, but to jump off the el itself.
How can we forget Crescent Street/Fulton on the J. And that curve used to be even sharper.
And the S curve on the Montague Street tunnel route? That was the one which required doors on the Standards to always be locked.
Paul, Someone else said something about that before.
Has the Fulton-Crescent curve been modified from what it used to be in the old days?
Has the Fulton-Crescent curve been modified from what it used to be in the old days?
Yes, it's been altered within my memory. I guess in the '60s. It was even sharper. If you look at the superstructure and current location of the tracks, you can make it out.
FWIW, trains always took this curve slowly, but not quite as slowly as now.
I am really curious about this one. I left in 1957, but my family was there till 1979. The family home, while out of sight of, was only about 200 feet from the turn. They never mentioned any rebuilding of the turn to me.
If you should ever come across any details of the change, and when it took place please keep me in mind. I do know that the station itelf was supposedly rebuilt in 1980 or 1981.
It's been a long time since I rode this curve eastbound--at least while looking out the front. IIRC, the eastbound track now comes in on the inside of the girder stringers where it used to follow it more closely. I think the work took place about the time they loused up the station houses of the old BERR portion.
It didn't involve any major steel work or massive realignment.
I am really curious about this one. I left in 1957, but my family was there till 1979. The family home, while out of sight of, was only about 200 feet from the turn. They never mentioned any rebuilding of the turn to me.
If you should ever come across any details of the change, and when it took place please keep me in mind. I do know that the station itself was supposedly rebuilt in 1980 or 1981.
The girders from the sharper curve ceased to be in use from around 1917 with dual-contact retrofit. You may have 1960 on your mind because of the incline trackway approaching Alabama Avenue. They got that far trying to build a 3rd Ave EL style express track when TA engineers determined the structure couldn't take it.
There's a pair of R-40s, possibly 4183-4182 (or something like that), which are sporting diamond yellow Qs. I knew all along it was a pretty stupid notion to believe the MTA would exclude a certain car class from a line because of such trivial matters as a rollsign.
Although, since all the signs (end and side) were showing the new designation, it leads me to believe that they are putting stickers over the old (Q)s.
It is a stupid notion and I agree with you on that but keep in mind this is the MTA we are talking about.
MTA DOES NOT STAND FOR RHYME OR REASON. IT NEVER HAS AND PROBABLY NEVER WILL
Thank goodness those terrible Hippos will stay off the Q express. After all, it has to be an express. I could run faster than a Hippo.
OK. Let's see you do it. Go ahead. Outrun an R68. Maybe you can race a (D) paralel to the Brighton Line or something. Go ahead.
:-) Andrew
When I was living in Africa I saw some hippos trotting down my street, and I saw some run pretty fast. I wouldn't want to try to outrun them.
Damn! You'd think they'd have leash laws. :)
Even a real hippo could outrun an R-68, R-68A if it wanted to because they're so slow. After those cars are big lumbering beasts with terrible brakes.
BMTJeff
Hippos are fast creatures.
I really enjoy myself when I realize that. It shows that the anti-R-68 crowd isn't all that smart by associating a fast animal with a train they call slow.
Maybe they should call the R-68s the tortises. Tortises are slow creatures. So are sloths. The sloths might be a more appropriate name for the R-68s.
Although the R-68s might be slow, at least they get you there.
BMTJeff
People unfairly group 68as with 68s
The R68A car class is not slow
Enough!
The Hippos might be kinda slow. But, this is the subway. Not Metro-North, not the LIRR and not NJ transit. If you are lucky, an IRT train will get up to 55, a BMT/IND train maybe 50. Can a 'hippo' hit 40? You bet. Do the R-40's/M's have uncomfortable seats? You bet.
Whose got the best MDBF rate in the B div? R-68's
What cars don't move on weekends? R-40's. (except those in the east)
I'd rather have a reliable car than one more likely to break down. And, to be honest, it doesn't matter if the R-68s or the R-40s are holding down the brighton express.
I saw some up close in Coney Island Yard. They are pasted on, including in the front, which means that you won't be able to shine light through it. Also I found out that the reason the yellow diamond Q's are being displayed now (before the service change) is so that it may be seen which signs have been done.
Fri. I saw a can in front of the shop near track 32 filled with R-68 side signs. They were the old ones but looked as good as new. So any insiders who want to collect these signs better hurry on over.
They have a can of R68 roll signs sitting outside CI yard??? Where and are they still there?
They were between track 34 and 36 (where 35 would be), at the SW corner of the shop (36 is he first track of the shop, while 34 continues outside to the wheel truer) by the driveway that passes the entrance gates to the shop. I saw this Fri. I don't know if it was emptied since then.
Well, they got me. I saw them today and thought they were new rollsigns.
[Although, since all the signs (end and side) were showing the new designation, it leads me to believe that they are putting stickers over the old (Q)s.]
No, no, no! They are not pasting over the 6th Avenue Q signs. What they're doing is pasting the Broadway Q-diamond over the Broadway D sign, which is right next to Broadway Q-circle, and not far from 6th Avenue Q. Read message #216553, and read the post and the responses to it (especially the one by Billy P).
I saw 1 consist of R40s today on the Q Line. No side destination signs were turned over. But atleast 1/2 of the end route signs had a yellow diamond Q on it in black letters. The Q was the circle with a straight line not one of those curved lines. They aren't paste ons. I was able to look closely. It was nice and smooth like a normal rollsign.
As many Subtalkers probably know, I thorougly detest the LIRR's Ronkonoma station, jammed as it is by big shots who live nearer the Port Jefferson or Montauk lines but who are too lazy to drag their suit-covered anuses five feet across the platform at Jamaica and therefore demand a single-seat ride. Obnoxious schmucks. Well, I won't have Ronkonkoma to kick around anymore, thank God.
A little background. I live in Medford, about a mile and a half from the station of the same name. Riding from Medford station requires going through Ronkonkoma. I used to go from Patchogue, about seven miles away - Patchogue trains are a million times nicer than Ronkonkoma's - but haven't been able to do it much lately due to car problems. My 1995 Dodge Neon is in pretty sorry shape and doesn't have an inspection certificate due to needed repairs. Parking an un-inspected car at Patchogue bascially guarantees a $25 ticket, while no one cares at Medford. I also have a 2000 Isuzu Rodeo, but my wife needs that more-reliable vehicle as she works 3-11 and comes home late at night.
Well, yesterday my wife leased a car (2001 Mitsubishi Eclipse) and the Rodeo's mine full-time. The Neon's been put out to pasture for the time being. What does this mean? It's Patchogue for me from now on! Adios Ronkonkoma, burn in Hell!
"Adios Ronkonkoma, burn in Hell!"
It would still have to be a kinder, gentler hell than where the NIMBYs go, right?
Hmmmm ... maybe NIMBY's should be sentenced to ride Ronkonkoma trains for all eternity, that'd serve them right!
OOOOOOOKKKKKKKAAAAAAAYYYYYYY... LOL! I thought I was the amusing one around here! I don't care for "suit wearers" either. I especially don't like them when they read the big *ss *#$%ing wall street Journal on a crowded subway car. All copies of that paper should be set on fire.
For that matter, let's set the suits on fire, too. ;) Just kidding. I live too close to the Bronx Psychiatric Center to make such remarks.
This year, Philly will celebrate The 100th anniversary of the opening of City Hall (the building, not the subway station), although it is undergoing a facelift right now, the tower will be open to the public. Also, The Ben Franklin Bridge will be celebrate it's 75th anniversary. The bridge will be closed to traffic on July 4th for people to cross the bridge by foot on the roadway. Although the DRPA is encouraging everybody to wear period clothing, it is not necessary. If you do, don't forget your Tommy gun and hide the booze from Eliot Ness. Don't worry, PATCO will still be running. It should be fun.
The Philly City Hall tour is pretty neat.
It has been reported here that when the R-38,40,42 fleet comes up for scrapping, the 10 GE R-32 rebuilds will go too. Something about non functioning A/C and an impossibility of obtaining replacement parts because the A/C package is not made anymore.
Well, since these 10 cars are much like their M & K rebuilds as far as condition is concerned, could it be possible to remove the functioning A/C from the R-38s when they are up for scrapping and install them in the 10 GE R-32s ?
TRAIN DUDE......help me on this one !
Bill "Newkirk"
TRAIN DUDE......help me on this one !
I'll try!
All R-32s began their lives without AC. When they were overhauled, the entire interior was removed, and at that time, the piping for the AC units was installed. Phase I cars used Thermoking AC while Phase II cars used Stone Safety AC. During overhaul, the copper pipe for the AC was run accordingly. Both systems are similar but not interchangable as far as I know. The ten R-32s rebuilt by GE were outfitted with Sigma AC equipment. Besides the fact that the parts are no longer available, the piping and wiring is not compatible. Hence, while the TA has spare thermoking and stone safety units available, the relocation of the piping would virtually require that the cars be completely disassembled again. The question now is, "do we make this costly investment?" According to the General Supt. of Pitkin/207th St shops, it seems that the TA is leaning that way.
Renovating 10 cars (one train's worth): Well, if they do it, then certainly having the cars equipped similarly to the rest of the fleet will help make future maintenance easier.
The original cars involved cost $115,000 each (1963 dollars). When overhauled by Buffalo Transit, the cost was $576,000 per car (MK overhaul was $476,000 each). I would estimate that whether it be done by a vendor, or in-house, we are looking at $200,000 - $300,000 per car to install new HVAC equipment.
Wow! 115,000 dollars in 1963 -----> $1.4 million today. Let's see, that's basically an inflation factor of 1,000% divided over 38 years. 1.4 million = 115,000*(1+n) (38th power).
My brain is tired today (and I misplaced my calculator) - somebody else solve for n.
> 115,000 dollars in 1963 -----> $1.4 million today.
6.8% yearly inflation. (By comparison, the increase in the consumer price index has averaged 4.8% over the same time, but the price of bread probably isn't a good measure of the price of a subway car!)
Thank you, kind sir.
Why did GE to these cars ?
I think they were prototypes for the R-38 rebuild.
subfan
They were prototypes for the R-32 rebuild, not the R-38 rebuild. The R-32s had structural problems around the doors, and NYCT was uncertain as to whether the cars could be rebuilt.
David
The Jersey City Landmarks Conservancy celebrates National Historic
Preservation Week 2001 with historical walking tours throughout Jersey City.
Saturday, May 12: Bergen Arches and Erie Cut Walking Tour. Light hiking.
Please bring a small water bottle and wear boots. Meet at the Hamilton Park
Gazebo, Jersey Ave. and 8th St. 10am to 12pm. The Bergen Arches and Erie
Cut, once part of the mighty Erie Railroad, are now a vast urban rain
forest. Walk through a long narrow corridor of folding cliffs and
moss-covered concrete arches.
Sunday, May 13: Historical Heights and Palisades Cliff Walking Tour. Meet at
the Riverview-Fisk Park Gazebo, Ogden Ave., east of Palisade Ave. 10am to
12pm. Co-sponsored by www.savethepalisades.org. Explore Washington Village,
an historic Heights neighborhood at the top of the wondrous Palisades.
Stroll across one of Jersey City's last cobblestone streets.
Monday, May 14: Light Rail Historical Tour. Meet at the Exchange Place Light
Rail Station. 7pm to 8:30pm. Co-sponsored by Fleet Bank, One Exchange Place.
Ride through once-forgotten historic neighborhoods. Observe venerable
architectural and engineering monuments erected by Jersey City's master
builders.
Tuesday, May 15: Harsimus Cove Historic District Walking Tour. Meet at the
Grove Street PATH Station. 7pm to 8:30pm. Co-sponsored by the Harsimus Cove
Association. Experience 19th century Jersey City as reflected in Harsimus
Cove's old brick and brownstone townhouses and churches.
Thursday, May 17: Jersey City Landmarks Conservancy Preservation Awards
Ceremony and Reception at the Loew's Jersey Theatre, Journal Square. Open to
the public. 6pm to 7pm. Historical slide show sponsored by the Jersey City
Historical Project to follow. The Conservancy will recognize outstanding
examples of local historic preservation as demonstrated in Old Bergen
Church, the Hamilton Park Foundry, Fleet Bank (Exchange Place), and various
commercial streetscapes projects by the Jersey City Economic Development
Corporation. The Theodore Conrad Memorial Award will be presented to Colin
Egan and the Friends of the Loew's.
Friday, May 18: Loew's Jersey Theatre Tour, Journal Square. 7pm to 8:30pm.
Co-sponsored by the Friends of the Loew's. Stand under the restored marquee
of this stunning Italian Baroque movie palace, circa 1929. Walk through a
soaring golden interior adorned with countless cherubs, murals, marble
pillars and over 3,000 seats.
Saturday, May 19: Historic Bergen District Walking Tour. Meet at the
Kearon-Hempenstall Gallery, 536 Bergen Ave. 12pm to 3pm. Co-sponsored by the
Kearon-Hempenstall Gallery and St. Paul's Church. Explore Jersey City's most
preserved Victorian neighborhood near the century-old Lincoln Park, designed
by renowned landscape architects Langton & Lowrie.
Sunday, May 20: Central Railroad of New Jersey Terminal Tour, Liberty State
Park. Meet at the Exchange Place Light Rail Station at 10am or the Terminal
at 11am. Tour runs from 11am to 1pm. Hosted by Michael Timpanaro, CRRNJ
Historian. See the last of the three great train and ferry terminals to
grace Jersey City's eastern shore.
All tours are rain or shine and free of charge.
The Jersey City Landmarks Conservancy is a non-profit 501(c)(3) organization
formed to preserve, protect and promote Jersey City's historic sites,
buildings, objects and districts. Among our activities, the Landmarks
Conservancy is leading a major historic preservation campaign for the 1906
Hudson & Manhattan Railroad Powerhouse, which is currently being considered
for entry into the State & National Registers of Historic Places. Please
visit our website at www.jclandmarks.org.
I know BRT Ran All Q Cars on The Myrtle Avenue El line Till Removal In 1969 :( . Did They Run Q Cars & Standards From Broadway To Metropolitan Avenue?
By 1969 it was R-16s not standards.
And it had been called the BMT after 1923, the city after 1940 and the TA after 1953.
There were likely R16's on the present M before 1969 on occasion..I'd swear in the 50's I'd see one once in a while with the 10 signs on the end. I'm almost sure they were all out of the Eastern by 1969 but could be wrong.
The first replacements for the old standards were the R7/9 that were bumped from the IND as new cars were coming in. I can recall them and the standards on the line when the Q's were still running.
Believe the R9 types were later replaced by R27 along with a mix of R42 as R42 were placed some on every line. Not to mention whatever other types came and went over the years.
But I'm almost positive there were no or rare R16's there around 1969, believe they found their way to Queens and the EE and GG, as I said the R7/9 and later some R6 mixed in replaced the standards.
Karl B has the skinny on the wood equipment.
The R16's were completely off the Eastern Division (except for 3 of the 5 RJ trainsets) within 4 weeks of Chrystie, until 1976. Once in a while they ran on a QJ, maybe even in a mixed consist with R27's, but that was it. Before Chrystie, the R16 covered #15, some 14's, and once in a blue moon, a #10 or #16. The R7/9 took a year to wipe out the Standards, starting in Spring 68. The Standards were still running when the KK started in 1969, but never ran on it.
Joe V,
Have it on excellent authority that BMT Standards DID very rarely run on the KK! I for one never saw them, but my friend tells me that very rarely when an R9 KK set had problems or was short of equipment, an AB set would be pulled from the Canarsie line and put into KK service.
Also, he tells me that the same problem would ocasionally arise on the QJ, and that ABs would find their way onto that line, where they would be seen going down the Brighton local to Coney Island.
Wish I could have been so lucky to catch that one!
We've got: Hot Lunch!
A photo of a BMT Standard running in-service in 1968 at West Fourth, 47th-50th or any of the other stations on the Sixth Ave. IND would be the utlimate of rare subway pictures.
Like I said; I personally did not ever see either the ABs on the KK or the QJ, but I have no reason to doubt my friend. Besides having started the Museum and knowing all those cars by heart, he has a photographic memory second to none.
We've got: Hot Lunch!
Here's another question: did the standards ever run along the Queens IND local after the 11th st cut was opened in 1955? What about the triplex?
Sure they did. I saw one in 1958 when I visited relatives in Elmhurst (it was a Brighton local, although most of the BMT trains on Queens Blvd. were 4th Ave. locals. Brighton trains ran there for a while).
Sorry, I saw a train of Standards, not Triplexes.
Hot Lunch, how have you been?
Did you change your Email addy?? I tried mailing you a few times and it didn't go through.
I wouldn't doubt for a minute that you're right...I can't remember ever catching a standard on the KK or QJ myself. But it could have happened. Between yourself and Joe V I was glad to get my memory refreshed on a few things.
Right on the R16's, they were put on the LL to replace the R1-9 starting sometime in l976; think by then the KK had been abolished and I never did see an R16 on the J or the M. But then I left in July 1977 and know they served on the J later.
Almost forgot the KK didn't start with Chrystie as was brought up; right; with the merger and Chrystie so the reminder is appreciated. The former 15 was QJ all times and the former 14 was still running, became the JJ, at least as of November 67.
By 1969 it was R-16s not standards.
And it had been called the BMT after 1923, the city after 1940 and the TA after 1953.
Actually,the R16's were mostly removed from the eastern division around 1969 and replaced with R7/R9 cars. Some R16's did operate on the #10/M/Myrtle-Chambers St. line before then, but it was mostly standards.
The Q cars did not run from Metropolitan to Bridge-Jay until about 1958. Before then it was the open platform gate cars, in the 1300 series. Before 1950 it was the 600, 900 & 1200 series gate cars!
Didn't the Q cars operate on the Third Ave el after the joint IRT/BMT service in Queens ended in 1949?
Nope. The Q cars were too wide for that. The IRT had Low-V's for the third ave line, and used them up until the last days.
Wasn't the Q car 9', made specifically to IRT dimensions for service on the Astoria/Flushing line before 1949? If so, it should've been compatible with the entire third ave. el.
>>> Wasn't the Q car 9', made specifically to IRT dimensions for service on the Astoria/Flushing line before 1949? <<<
Yes, the "Q" stands for Queens. There was certainly no reason these cars could not be used on the 3rd Ave. El, and I know I have read that they were used there after 1949.
Tom
You're right, Chris! The Q's went to the Third Ave El starting in 1949. The IRT did replace the trucks with trucks off the old composites though. The original trucks, probably Peckham, were much heavier than the composite trucks!
I think they were still restricted to the express track, or the local if empty when deadheading.
Items by Joe V and Karl B being true I'll toss a bit more in myself.
The Q's were remodelled from BU gate cars in 1938 for the World"s Fair, BMT el cars were indeed 9 foot; the BRT/BMT didn't have big cars until the standards in 1914. So they weren't specially built for Queens, they were updated. The same cars in gate form ran in BMT service in Queens so became the Q's for a better World's Fair image.[Most were 1907 built 1400's and some were 1903 built 1200's]
If you look at original Q photos you'll see the markers were outboard as on most BMT el cars. Hallelujah they were moved inboard when transferred to 3rd Ave as they wouldn't clear the station shed overhang; they looked their best either then or on the first couple years on Myrtle; when their rooves were lowered it ruined their looks.
On the YUK side, yes the composite trucks were a necessity for weight reduction and the cars were still restricted on the Manhattan portion of the line: Local track running light only, express track only with passengers except in emergencies...same restrictions applied to Composites. They'd have been OK with all motors and the composite trucks but with the trailers (B car in the center) they were underpowered. When they moved them to Myrtle in 1958 with that low BMT voltage they were real poor; never ran fast again except downhill.Too bad they didn't take the trucks from the 1300 BU's that were replaced and put them back on..they were what they had originally but then they had to rewire motor feeds ...The original BU/Q setup had both motors on one truck, the Composite trucks had one motor on each.
After removal from Queens in 1949 they were phased into service on 3rd Ave. thru 1950 and remained there until late l956 when the Steel Steinways were transferred there to replace them and the last Manhattan el MUDC's. In April 58 they were put in service on Myrtle.
Do you really think the marker lights looked better inboard rather than outboard?
We sure disagree on that point, although it is a matter of personal taste. I think moving the lights inboard spoiled their appearance.
Of course they looked better the IRT WAY!!!! Best wishes. IRT man
You are used to seeing them inboard from the IRT. I am used to them being outboard from the BMT.
I'll win you over yet!
I might be wrong but I don't think Low-V's were ever used on the Manhattan part of the Third Av El, just on the Bronx part after the Manhattan part was torn down.
Right you are. And with a rare exception they weren't conventional Low-V's, they were the lighter Steinway cars; lighter as their motors were smaller, but they looked identical to Low-V's.
Not too identical though. Didn't the Steinways have front destination signs??
Those were the Worlds Fair cars with the front signage ... they often ran as lead and tail cars on the third avenue el with Steinways inside the consists ...
Yes indeed, they did ... here's a picture of a fan trip at 161 St and 3rd though the Q's did operate on the 3rd Avenue el for a while:
The Q cars ran on the Myrtle Ave. El from 1958 to the el's last day in 1969. They were modified for use on Myrtle Ave. by adding extension plates under each door to fill the gap at the stations east of Broadway, which had to be able to also handle 10' wide subway cars. The subway cars which initally ran on this section with the Q cars were BMT multisection cars (until 1961). The Multis were transferred from the 14th St. line to the Myrtle-Chambers line after the Fulton St. El closed (outer portion became part of the IND Fulton St. Line) in 1956. I believe the main reason for putting the Multis on the Myrtle-Chambers run was that, due to deferred maintenance, they were becoming somewhat less reliabale, and the Myrtle-Chambers line was a rush hour only operation, limiting the need for the cars to one or two round trips in each rush hour with lots of time to patch them up in betwwen. The Multis were finally retired in 1961, replaced by Standards freed up by the arrival of R27s on the BMT Southern Division.
-- Ed Sachs
Last night, I made the mistake of eating a pizza with mushrooms, pepperoni, sausage, and anchovies after midnight, and it resulted in a horrible nightmare about the New York subways. As you may know, I left New York in June, 1948, but I have been planning to return this summer, and I was thinking about my upcoming trip when I fell asleep.
My dream started with me near the UN building on a hot August day. I was walking westward, looking forward to getting out of the sun in the shade of the 3rd Avenue El. When I got to the street with a sign saying "3rd Avenue" the El was missing. The street did not look anything like I remembered it (kind of like the Yuppies had invaded and taken over). Then I remembered that there had been talk of tearing down the El once a 2nd Avenue subway was built, so I asked a passerby where the nearest entrance to the 2nd Ave. subway was. He looked at me like I was crazy. I asked someone else and he said "In your dreams, buddy!" I never did find the entrance to the 2nd Avenue subway.
I walked a little further west on 42nd Street and came to the entrance to the IRT Queens line. I went in there but had trouble at the turnstile finding the place to insert my coin. Fortunately a good Samaritan was nearby and offered to let me through the turnstile if I would pay him the fare. That sounded ok to me so he somehow passed his hand over the turnstile and the bar gave way so I could get through. I thanked him and tossed him a nickel as I went through. Apparently the poor man suffered from Tourette's Syndrome, because he started curing a blue streak, and called me all kinds of names and did not stop until a policeman approached, at which time he quieted down and walked the other way.
When I got down to the station platform it looked familiar, but there were glaring bright white lights down the length of the platform, and since I was thirsty, I looked for a soda machine, but could not find one. I couldn't even find a chewing gum machine. I began to think I was in some kind of altered universe. I looked down the track to see the signal lights on the front of an approaching train to find out if it was going to Astoria (2 red) or Flushing (2 green, local; 1 red 1green, express), but the lights were missing. Instead I was almost blinded by bright lights on the front of the train. I did notice that some superstitious person had put a lighted lucky number "7" on the front of the train.
As this train pulled into the station, I saw that there was no motorman. I looked at the place where he should have been, but instead of a ruddy faced Irishman with a striped cap and overalls over a checked shirt, wearing heavy engineer gloves, there was a young Latino businessman wearing a coat and tie sitting there in a great raifan seat. Since there were no signal lights on the front of the train, I wanted to ask the conductor where the train was going, but there was no conductor either. I looked between each of the cars to find him, but he just wasn't there. I did see one young woman passenger poke her head out of a window and look up and down the platform for a friend she was expecting (she did not find him).
Just looking at the train made me realize that this could not be a real New York subway train. First of all it was painted red, instead of the dull green-brown that blended with the accumulated grime so well. This was not the red of the LIRR either, but bright red, like a fire engine. Although a California border town might paint its rolling stock like that, surely the Big Apple would remain more conservative. Also, even though it was the middle of August, none of the windows were open (except the one the woman passenger leaned out of) and most of the windows did not look like they could be opened. When the train pulled to a stop with doors right in front of me and the doors opened, a puff of cool air came out. Now I knew I was in some kind of fantasy.
I got pushed into the car by the people on the platform behind me, and noticed once we started moving, that besides being cool inside, it was so quiet that I could make out individual words that were being spoken by other passengers within four feet of where I was standing. Obviously this could not be a real New York subway. Apparently this train ran on diesel fuel, and was not particularly efficient. As we passed through the Steinway tubes, the smell of unburned diesel oil was strong.
When we broke ground in Queens, everything seemed normal until we rounded the curve and pulled into Queensboro Plaza. HALF THE STATION WAS MISSING!!! At that point I could not take it any longer and woke up screaming. I shook for a minute or two until I realized that it had just been a nightmare with no basis in reality. I promptly swore off late night pizzas (at least hold the anchovies) and I am still looking forward to my trip this summer. :-)
Tom
Old Tom, Enjoyed reading about your "nightmare"!
Did You really leave in 1948? I left in 1957, and thought I was probably the longest one away from NY on this board.
I will have to try that pizza after midnight snack because it has been a long time since I've had a subway dream. I've had to rely on this board to keep me up-to-date on subway news!
>>> Did You really leave in 1948? <<<
Karl;
Yes, I did move out of the City in 1948, but I returned for a month each summer through 1956 and did most of my railfanning during that time. I still remember the R-15 as the most modern looking subway car.
I also returned for short visits to Flushing in 1958, 1959, 1962 and 1964, but did not do any railfanning during those visits.
Tom
I did get to ride the R-16's and a little of the R-17's before I left.
I was back as recently as 1982 but never had an opportunity to ride the subways since my trips were by auto, and only 2 day visits.
Sounds like fun! you need a dream about the B division. Maybe when you'd dream about an R44/46/48 you'd think it was the Super Chief or the like; until you got inside the cars!
As luck would have it I've had a few the other way around, dreamed I rode the Manhattan el MUDC's, High-V and Low-V on a few occasions.
Save for a few details, your dream is pretty close to reality.
When the first eight cars of the R143 arrives on TA property, will more cars come on the property or will testing will be done first to work out the "minor" glitches?
oh and by the way, according to my friend, a T/O on the 7 line, the last express of the day is the 12:09 out of main
Do you mean 12:09 A.M. or 12:09 P.M.?
BMTJeff
The last Manhattan-bound 7 express leaves Main Street at 12:09 P.M.
Are you sure about that? I used to ride the 7 daily and I thought the last city-bound express left at about 8:45 a.m.
I think that is about right. I think it might be 12:02 or 12:03. I downloaded the schedule yesterday but I have to double check.
oh and by the way as per the GO advisories,
the express <7>'s run from 12:30p to 10pm.
The repuation for the R-68's express runs are pretty bad, but for the 4 years I have been riding the D they seem to be getting faster.
Especially after the morning rush-hour going up town. Some of the drivers dont brake when they get to the 103st "hill" and dont break after, so they reach increible speeds, at least 45-50 m.p.h which is impressive for a 90,000 pound piece of stainless steel. We need more of those drivers on the R-68's to see their potential.
"If you're committed via pick to something
that turns out to be "not everything it seemed"
you just GOTTA stick on and get your kicks
anyway you know how.."
_Anonymous T/O
The A & D trains can't do more than 38 mph. If they go any faster, the timers will trip the train. On the hill, you can get to 42 mph.
>>The A & D trains can't do more than 38 mph. If they go any faster, the timers will trip the train.<<
I've seen them doing 45. The speedometer said: 45mph.
This evening Wed.5/9 on "Jeopardy" from Phila.the final question was What is known as the Nile River Horse ? The 3 contestants were high school seniors. The 1st.said a Zebra, 2nd. A crock, 3rd. a Hippo. Alex says you are the winner. Hippo it is they play for 50,000.oo thursday.
My impression is that the derision the R68s get is strictly a subtalk phoenomenon, and that they really don't deserve it. Their heinous crime is that they aren't the R10, which appear to have been overrated themselves. Besides, NOTHING is exactly speeding these days.
:-) Andrew
But the R68 is the slowest of the slow. Agreed, all NYC Subway trains are slower than they used to but I have ridden several R68 trains and they are slower than some other NYC trains. The R44/46 also fall in this category.
When a Q and a D leave Church Ave southbound at the same time, both run at the same speed until the D slows for Beverley. I've read many times here that the R40 will blow away an R68, but I haven't seen it, and I ride one or the other every day.
The R68, like the R44 and R46 have better sound-proofing and sound muffling from the A/C than the earlier trains do, so you don't here the sounds of speed. The R10 had open windows and at their age a lot of rattles, contributing to the impression of speed. The r40s are held together with duct tape.
The r10, r38 and r40 are much faster then the r68
Thank you, Michael. At least we know one subtalker who is not confused by facts.
Besides, you can't go on perceived races between paralel trains. There are many different factors (such as timers, or congestion) which contriubute to one train being slower than the other on a given trip.
:-) Andrew
There are no timers or any congestion on this part of the line. This is not an isolated event. I witness it fairly frequently. Sometimes one train is slightly faster, sometimes the other. But neither has an edge.
Below are a couple of things I do, if you do them too, then you're just as crazy about trains as I am.
1. Do you listen to the scanner with headphones in the subway, pretending that you're listening to music?
2. Do you tell your friends who are riding with you that they are in one of the few R26s left in the system?
3. Have you ever asked a Kawasaki employee how the dynamic brake tests are going?
4. Have you ever asked a TO of a #6 train to go real slow around the Brooklyn Bridge City Hall loop so you can take pictures of the City Hall station?
5. Have you ever told a little kid to get out of the way of the railfan window so you can take a picture of a track tamper on the LIRR?
6. Can you name the companies that manufacture rail clips, ties and signals?
7. Do you alwys look for the number nd builder's plate of the subway car you are in?
8. Have people ever looked at you funny when you get off a train and everyone leaves except you because you want to wait and take a picture of the next train coming?
9. Do you always look at the condition of the track when waiting for train?
10. Are you lways upset when approaching a grade crossing in your car and the gates don't go down?
11. Do you know the subway radio codes by heart? (eg 12-5 stalled train)
12. Can you quickly identify an SD-40-2 from a SD-45?
13. Do you have photos of trains in at least two rooms in your house?
14. Do you have more photos of trains than you do of people?
15. Do you collect Metrocards?
16. Do you ride trains for the hell of it?
17. Have you ever spen more then $30 round trip riding trains for the hell of it?
18. Do you hate people that hate redbirds?
19. Have you ever walked into a railyard without permission?
And finally...
20. Do other people think you're crazy for spending so much time on trains and railroads?
-Dan
www.trainweb.org/nyrail
Drop the net, boys! Heh. Guilty as charged on many ... but ya missed one ... TAKING a train ... literally ... of course, extra points for putting it back. :)
That's not so bad, I used to steal cars (occasionally with 'permission'). I had good taste in cars too, I only stole PCCs untill they got retired...
As for subway cars, I got to drive them on occasion with 'permission' from the drivers. Of course, my favourite trick was to open the little door on the cab end of the Gloucster cars and reach in for the little crank and look up at the mirror behind the hole in the ceiling and change the destination sign to something implausible like Downtown or better yet HAPPY BIRTHDAY 1984!
Ya know? Aside from the Newark City Subway, I had never been on or in a PCC. Went for an obligatory ride on it back somewhere after I left the TA - 1973 or 74 somewhere. Nice toy. Natch, the "driver" was in no mood to "scooch over" ... heh.
And yeah, when I was a kid, I used to LOVE to change the roll signs, side and rear when I was alone in a car, though my favorite activity was letting myself into the rear cab and just sitting in there.
We used to change to side signs on busses when we were coming home from school and it was standing room only. If you were standing, you just leaned over and slowly turned the knob. We changed the route from an "L" bus to an "S" bus many times.
When I started bus riding with my fiend he always let me change the sign at the end of the route. One time, on an old GMC , there was only a little window you could part of the sign through, and I put up
"33-Dauphin", instead of "33-Reed". I caught my error at the end of
the line. None of the passengers ever said anyhthing, the just knew it
was a westbound Rte. 64 bus.
Chuck Greene
the scanner thing,I do that, boy oh boy if they only knew what i knew at the moment
I meet the qualifications for 6, 7, 9, 10, 15 and 16.
As for 18, I'd have to hate myself, wouldn't I?
1. Do you listen to the scanner with headphones in the subway, pretending that you're listening to music?
No
2. Do you tell your friends who are riding with you that they are in one of the few R26s left in the system?
Yes (although it doesn't matter the car or the age)
3. Have you ever asked a Kawasaki employee how the dynamic brake tests are going?
No
4. Have you ever asked a TO of a #6 train to go real slow around the Brooklyn Bridge City Hall loop so you can take pictures
of the City Hall station?
No
5. Have you ever told a little kid to get out of the way of the railfan window so you can take a picture of a track tamper on the
LIRR?
I believe that the railfan window is first come first serve...
6. Can you name the companies that manufacture rail clips, ties and signals?
No
7. Do you alwys look for the number nd builder's plate of the subway car you are in?
Yes. I also do it for the viechels passing by.
8. Have people ever looked at you funny when you get off a train and everyone leaves except you because you want to wait
and take a picture of the next train coming?
All the time
9. Do you always look at the condition of the track when waiting for train?
Occasionally
10. Are you lways upset when approaching a grade crossing in your car and the gates don't go down?
N/A
11. Do you know the subway radio codes by heart? (eg 12-5 stalled train)
No
12. Can you quickly identify an SD-40-2 from a SD-45?
WHAT?
13. Do you have photos of trains in at least two rooms in your house?
No
14. Do you have more photos of trains than you do of people?
Yes
15. Do you collect Metrocards?
Yes
16. Do you ride trains for the hell of it?
Yes
17. Have you ever spen more then $30 round trip riding trains for the hell of it?
IDK
18. Do you hate people that hate redbirds?
Yes
19. Have you ever walked into a railyard without permission?
Almost
And finally...
20. Do other people think you're crazy for spending so much time on trains and railroads?
YES!
i think i scored pretty good on this test !! .....lol !!!
So you hate me?
I don't hate people who like Repulsive Rustbirds, but I hate people who hate R-142s for only the reason they'll replace them and for no rational or logical reason.
I don't get you.
Rephrase. I don't like the R142A for several reasons. Read my post about my trip.
I did. But at least you don't hate them just because they're going to replace the Repulsive Rustbirds.
The only things I dislike about the R-142 is the front end sign and the fact that the sides are too bland. You can have other reasons to dislike them and they're legitimate.
1. Do you listen to the scanner with headphones in the subway, pretending that you're listening to music?
Hell no.
2. Do you tell your friends who are riding with you that they are in one of the few R26s left in the system?
I tell my wife..........who then promptly falls asleep.
3. Have you ever asked a Kawasaki employee how the dynamic brake tests are going?
No, I've got a life.
4. Have you ever asked a TO of a #6 train to go real slow around the Brooklyn Bridge City Hall loop so you can take pictures
of the City Hall station?
I wouldn't dare. Their breaks uptown are short enough.
5. Have you ever told a little kid to get out of the way of the railfan window so you can take a picture of a track tamper on the
LIRR?
I would never tell a kid that. I'd just shove him.
6. Can you name the companies that manufacture rail clips, ties and signals?
I can name the signal manufacturers. And the company that makes clip on ties for the C/R's. But not clips & ties.
7. Do you alwys look for the number nd builder's plate of the subway car you are in?
I just need the number, I already know who built what.
8. Have people ever looked at you funny when you get off a train and everyone leaves except you because you want to wait
and take a picture of the next train coming?
People look funny at me period.
9. Do you always look at the condition of the track when waiting for train?
I take wagers on the over/under of rats on the tracks. 1 1/2 is a good number.
10. Are you always upset when approaching a grade crossing in your car and the gates don't go down?
Oh yeah, I really get upset. Especially if the train is coming.
11. Do you know the subway radio codes by heart? (eg 12-5 stalled train)
True conversation:
Train Operator: Control Center come in for the 142-A-Far Rock
Control Center: 142-A-Far Rock location & problem
TO: Yes, Control I have a 12-10 who is being a 12-12 at Ralph Av
CC: 142-A-Far Rock location & problem, but this time IN ENGLISH.
12. Can you quickly identify an SD-40-2 from a SD-45?
No, but I can identify an X-14 from a WD-40.
13. Do you have photos of trains in at least two rooms in your house?
Nope.
14. Do you have more photos of trains than you do of people?
Guilty.
15. Do you collect Metrocards?
No, but I collect old subway & bus maps. Mu oldest are a 1924 London Bus Map and a 1937 IRT guide.
My wife on the other hand says that I collect dust.
16. Do you ride trains for the hell of it?
Would you go to your desk at work on a Sunday? Ditto.
17. Have you ever spen more then $30 round trip riding trains for the hell of it?
Not necessary when you have a girlfriend. Afterwards, you won't have $30 left to ride with.
18. Do you hate people that hate redbirds?
I just hate people.
19. Have you ever walked into a railyard without permission?
No, but I often leave one without permission.
20. Do other people think you're crazy for spending so much time on trains and railroads?
I think I'm crazy for actually answering all 20 questions.
(looking at zman and shaking my head)
Zman, my friend, with a sense of humor like yours, you don't need a brake handle and a reverser. You need a stage and a microphone! LOL
Shame. All that talent going to waste. LOL
Zman, my friend, with a sense of humor like yours, you don't need a brake handle and a reverser. You need a stage and a microphone!
So you're saying he should be a C/R instead of a T/O? ;)
Exactly! Who's going to hear all that humor in the front of the train? LOL
Here are my answers:
1. Do you listen to the scanner with headphones in the subway, pretending that you're listening to music?
No, but if I had a scanner, I would.
2. Do you tell your friends who are riding with you that they are in one of the few R26s left in the system?
Yes. They couldn't care less.
3. Have you ever asked a Kawasaki employee how the dynamic brake tests are going?
No.
4. Have you ever asked a TO of a #6 train to go real slow around the Brooklyn Bridge City Hall loop so you can take pictures of the City Hall station?
I have never been able to stay on a #6 train after Brooklyn Bridge - I keep getting kicked off the train. However, if I was able to stay on, I would try to do as you suggest.
5. Have you ever told a little kid to get out of the way of the railfan window so you can take a picture of a track tamper on the LIRR?
No, but I have made my annoyance known to non-railfans who hog the front window not knowing what they're seeing.
6. Can you name the companies that manufacture rail clips, ties and signals?
No.
7. Do you alwys look for the number nd builder's plate of the subway car you are in?
Not always, but usually.
8. Have people ever looked at you funny when you get off a train and everyone leaves except you because you want to wait and take a picture of the next train coming?
I've never taken such a picture, but people do look funny at me while I'm standing there watching the train leave, looking at station details, et al.
9. Do you always look at the condition of the track when waiting for train?
Yes.
10. Are you lways upset when approaching a grade crossing in your car and the gates don't go down?
They always go down, so I've never experienced this.
11. Do you know the subway radio codes by heart? (eg 12-5 stalled train)
No.
12. Can you quickly identify an SD-40-2 from a SD-45?
No.
13. Do you have photos of trains in at least two rooms in your house?
No, but I have many books with train photos in them. Does that count?
14. Do you have more photos of trains than you do of people?
Yes.
15. Do you collect Metrocards?
No.
16. Do you ride trains for the hell of it?
Sometimes. If there's something about a train, either if its very old or very new, I will go out of my way to ride it.
17. Have you ever spen more then $30 round trip riding trains for the hell of it?
No.
18. Do you hate people that hate redbirds?
No, they're just misguided.
19. Have you ever walked into a railyard without permission?
Yes.
And finally...
20. Do other people think you're crazy for spending so much time on trains and railroads?
Ask my wife.
1 2 3 4 5 6 8 9 11 -some 13 15 16 17 18 ( i hate everyone ) 19 20, sometimes i ruin trains but thats accidental
1 2 3 4 5 6 8 9 11 -some 13 15 16 17 18 ( i hate everyone ) 19 20, sometimes i ruin trains but thats accidental hey wait inever asked a kawasaki employee nothing
I can answer part of question #6; Pandrol Jackson manufactures the knuckle clips that are used nowadays instead of the spikes.
1. Do you listen to the scanner with headphones in the subway, pretending that you're listening to music?
No. CTA employees get really pissed when I try to plug my headphones into their radios.
2. Do you tell your friends who are riding with you that they are in one of the few R26s left in the system?
Yes. My friends marvel at how gracefully the R26's handle the curves of the Loop.
3. Have you ever asked a Kawasaki employee how the dynamic brake tests are going?
No, but I'll be sure to ask the next time I find myself shopping for a motorcycle or jet ski.
4. Have you ever asked a TO of a #6 train to go real slow around the Brooklyn Bridge City Hall loop so you can take pictures of the City Hall station?
Don't New York City subway trains go real slow pretty much all the time?
5. Have you ever told a little kid to get out of the way of the railfan window so you can take a picture of a track tamper on the LIRR?
No, but I've occasionally shoved elderly people out of the way so I could get a seat at rush hour.
6. Can you name the companies that manufacture rail clips, ties and signals?
Umm... Microsoft, Disney, and McDonald's. (No, I don't really know, but I figure I have pretty good odds with those.)
7. Do you alwys look for the number and builder's plate of the subway car you are in?
Yeah, you wouldn't believe how much those things will fetch on eBay.
8. Have people ever looked at you funny when you get off a train and everyone leaves except you because you want to wait and take a picture of the next train coming?
People look at me funny all the time, so I really haven't noticed.
9. Do you always look at the condition of the track when waiting for train?
Does counting subway rats qualify?
10. Are you always upset when approaching a grade crossing in your car and the gates don't go down?
Yes, except for when my car is stalled on the tracks.
11. Do you know the subway radio codes by heart? (eg 12-5 stalled train)
No. See my answer to question #1.
12. Can you quickly identify an SD-40-2 from a SD-45?
Yeah, but my car only uses 5W-30.
13. Do you have photos of trains in at least two rooms in your house?
My house doesn't have two rooms.
14. Do you have more photos of trains than you do of people?
Who the hell would want to take a photo of another person?
15. Do you collect Metrocards?
I used to, but I couldn't convince the guy at Sharper Image that they were credit cards.
16. Do you ride trains for the hell of it?
Yes, except for when I have to get off the train and go to work.
17. Have you ever spent more then $30 round trip riding trains for the hell of it?
18. Do you hate people that hate redbirds?
Yes, but I hate most people in general, so it really doesn't matter.
19. Have you ever walked into a railyard without permission?
You need permission to walk into a railyard? (oops)
:-)
-- David
Chicago, IL
many chuckles, but when an one of one's ex's still occasionally sends you train picutres you konw you are ok.
13. Don't you have a bathroom?
No. I usually relieve myself on the subway, particularly in Redbirds. But sometimes I can't make it to New York in time, so I use CTA 2600's.
-- David
Chicago, IL
yeah this is me! I didn't answer yes to all of them, but I could answer yeah to alot that my friends would answer Hell no 2. LOL
There is a picture taken in 1995 accompanying the article about the Coney Island terminal. It depicts a sign indicating service via the Brighton, Sea Beach, West End and IND ? Lines. The sign is still there, but is sure to be removed during renovations. What is the missing word between IND and Lines? I stared at it "live" for some time and couldn't make out what is covered over. There appears to be room for four letters.
Any chance that it might be & BMT?
"Culver"
David
Right. It was proably "IND" placed over "Culver", after that line effectively turned into an IND back in the 1950's. That must be one old sign!
:-) Andrew
The missing word changed a few times. From BMT days it read:
"Brighton, Sea Beach, West End and West End Lines"
in 1954 it was changed to:
"Brighton, Sea Beach, West End and IND Concourse Culver Lines"
"Concourse Culver" meant the "D" train. The words CONCOURSE and CULVER where jammed on top of each other on two lines of narrow type. Then after the D and F were switched, they removed the "Concourse" but I'm not sure if they left the "Culver" or made it bigger.
Whoops! I meant, for the original:
"Brighton, Sea Beach, West End and Culver Lines"
What happens when I post without previewing.
Paul: Been there, done that. And I also felt like a moron.
Fred, I think that sign also more or less showed the pecking order in BMT days: Brighton, Sea Beach, West End, Culver, since it sure didn't reflect the order of the track assignments.
I sure hope that sign goes to the Transit Museum. It's surely BMT era. I remember my dad explaining the line names on the sign to me. His memory went back to Culver Depot.
"I sure hope that sign goes to the Transit Museum."
I don't think that sign is headed to the Transit Museum. I was told that with the plans of reconstructing Stillwell that sign will be refinished and rehung in the new terminal.
Bill "Newkirk"
that sign will be refinished and rehung in the new terminal.
Be still my beating heart! :-)
And they'll redo it with CULVER, I hope, not one of the post-'54 bastardizations.
I guess some people who feel it's not authenicate if the sign is repainted, but lots of signs on the system were painted and repainted. Back round 1958 or so, the TA put in a token vending machine (winder of the ages!!) in the outer wall of the Church Avenue token booth. A painter came in and repainted "BMT LINES" on the station wall.
I thought it might be because of alphabetical order, but that had to go by the boards because Culver was listed last. The Brighton was always the apple of the TA's eye even in my youthful days. I think it was because it ran as two lines, local and express, and was the only train that used both Standard and Triplex cars. However, when articles were written about the subway most of the time it was about the Sea Beach. I know because I read them all, even as a kid. Perhaps because in Brooklyn it was an open cut, below street level and yet in God's own sunshine.
The BMT had two "bread and butter" lines--the core services that dependably made the most money and received the most attention from management.
The Brighton was one, can you guess the other?
Jamaica?
No I can't. Can you tell me? Is it good news for me to hear? Otherwise, forget it.
No I can't. Can you tell me [the two BMT bread-and-butter lines]? Is it good news for me to hear? Otherwise, forget it.
Brighton Beach and Fulton Street.
Fred, check the related website, I think its www.bmt-lines. Anyway, the exact address is given in the section on "related sites". Check the fares collected for 1927-8 (yes, the time of introduction of the Triplexes). Guess what? The Brighton and the Fulton had the most fares. The Sea Beach, well......
Well Q, you've done it. You've cast a pall on my day. The truth does hurt sometimes, doesn't it?
If only 4 letters, I'll guess "6th Av". My home station was Av I, and, while my parents always referred to the McDonald Av line as the Culver, there were very few IND signs that did so in the 60's and 70's. I think the Culver name has been resurrected of late, but it was definitely suppressed back then.
About a year ago, I saw a Spanish movie called "Nueba Yol" which takes place in the Dominican Republic, Miami, and New York, of all places. In one scene, the main character, an old man looking for success and a fortune in the Big City, tries to find his way around and rides the subway up to Washington Heights to see family and friends. He rides the A train...with R40 slants, the ones BEFORE the TA added on the safety features.
Now, my question is: Did the A line EVER have any R40 slants or is it only the creation of the movie producers? It looked like they were actually on the A line. I just wanna hear from you guys ASAP...just curious...
CWalNYC
I saw this movie in Spanish I remember a scene @ 181 St on the "A" it was the R110B that was used in the scene he was lost in the subway & showed a scene @ 145 St upper level. Majority of the movie scene was in Washington Hts also their is a shot outside the 14 St-Union Sq Sta.
P.S. My parents are from D.R.
I took some 35mm slides back in 1979 and 1980 at Howard Beach station while waiting for the JFK Express, and one of the shots was most certainly an R40 slant on the "A" train.
There were most definitely R40 slants on the "A" line in the '80's. I remember taking them in High School.
Today I was walking around the back of 240 St Shops & I notice that R62A 1660-56 was sporting 1 & had Westchester Yard yellow labels, whats going on with this yard equipment changes? I know that these cars were on the #1/9 lines like 10-15 years ago.
A NJT NEC train pantograph-catenary entanglement suspended eastbound service at 9:30.
brief Daily News story
Duration of service suspension was not stated. I saw an eastbound Amtrak train approaching the tunnel at 1:25 AM this morning.
Can anyone suggest the most dirct subway route from Port Authority (42nd) to 14 Boerum Place in Brooklyn (it's the other side of 111 Livingston St.) Thansk for your assistance!
[For the future, you can get 24hr. directions, including specific street addresses, from the MTA, at (718) 330-1234.]
Take downtown A or C train to Jay St./Borough Hall. Be in one of the front two cars. Go up the stairs, then through the black metal revolving exit door. Then, go up the stairs to your immediate right, to the street. You'll be near the corner of Jay St. & Fulton St. Walk forward a few steps to the corner, look to your right, and you'll see a big street - that's Boerum Place. Cross it & turn left. You'll see Livington Street shortly.
There was some talk awhile ago of the MTA annexing the PATH system, or at least taking over the operation, followed by 'over our dead bodies' talk by PATH officials, as I seem to remember.
Leaving out the argument whether MTA takeover would actually be beneficial for the PATH...if the MTA did so...what would be the nomenclature of the lines?
I've always been fascinated by naming schemes and signage. The PATH operates on two trunk lines, one out to Hoboken and one out to Jersey City and on to Newark. Free transfers to the IND/BMT would be at 33rd Street and WTC.
We still have some unsued letters lying around. Would the Hoboken line be called the H (seems natural to me)
The line to Jersey City and Newark be called the P, the next unused letter, or perhaps the T? My vote would go to X.
www.forgotten-ny.com
Kevin:
These really aren't "trunk" lines per se.
Would your "H" go from Hoboken to WTC or 33rd?
The PATH system is somewhat unique in its crossover design, with the Pavonia/Newport station serving both Journal Square and WTC-bound trains on the same track.
As a PATH rider, I have brought up this subject before, and I think the best idea would be a common fare system, not an actual merger. I.e. free transfer from PATH to MTA and back. I need to get to 42nd street and 5th Ave, for which I often take the IND 6th Ave 1 stop for $1.50 extra. Somewhat silly.
What PATH should do is expand on the Jersey side, something the MTA has no license to do. PATH should be extended to Newark Airport as a first step.
PPS
It's not the letters that you should be figuring, it should be the new name for the PATH trains since the name "PORT AUTHORITY Trans-Hudson" doesn't fit into the MTA scheme of things.
What would YOU rename the PATH to? What do you think the brainiacs at the MTA would call it?
"What would YOU rename the PATH to? What do you think the brainiacs at the MTA would call it?"
How about MTATH? pronounced "em-tath", rhymes with "empath".
Or maybe something really banal like "MTA New Jersey" or cool like "Sixth borough transit", the "affordable living express"....
PPS
It could go from PATH to Path (ie, no longer an acronym).
OR MATH: Mta Across The Hudson.
MTA Trans-Hudson System
I'd call it .. MTA Hudson Tubes
I think "Hudson and Manhattan" has a nice ring to it...
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
MTA Trans-Hudson Railway. Kinda similar to MTA Staten Island Railway. Maybe MTA Hudson Railway even.
Shawn.
What they're after is MTA operation and Metrocard with Port Authority financing. Still and all, I would like to see the 9th Street bellmouth extended to the Lex's Astor Place station. Since PATH intends to buy R142 clones, some economies-of-scale could occur there too.
Ummm...ISTR this was scrapped because whenever a train came from Astor Place heading southwest, it would cross a track which has service in the other direction, thus delaying all northbound trains.
-------------+---------- <-- Southbound
. . . . . . .\ . . . .
---> ----------+--------
. . . . . . . . \
. . . . . . . . .\
. . . . . . . . . To Astor Place
That's one reason. Another (though not relevant any more) is that the H&M had somewhat of a falling out with the IRT. And the last original reason is that there is some bad ground in there, though I don't know if that would affect construction today. Currently, there's a bunch of electrical distribution stuff that would need to be relocated.
Since PATH is close to IRT scale, I would think it would get numbers instead of letters, and ideally would be hooked into the existing system. And they could just keep the name PATH, since you would then have the IND/BMT trains and the IRT/PATH lines.
As far as the connections, instead of a grade crossing at the Ninth Street bellmouth, I'd prefer a flying junction at Sheridan Square for a new line down West Fourth, with a stop at Washington Square and then hooking into the IRT Lexington Ave. local tracks. From there, the line from either Journal Square or Newark could run up to 59th-Lex (non-rush hours) or 177th-Parkchester during the rush.
First, there isn't enough distance between the eastbound and westbound tracks to allow a flying junction there. Next, nobody really knows what sort of condition the iron tunnel segments are in - the PA analyzed some of the segments in the abandoned Hudson Terminal trackage in the 70's, but it's anybody's guess as to whether that is representative of the ironwork elsewhere in the system. It probably isn't - the ground is quite different in downtown and midtown, not to mention New Jersey (remember the iron-reducing bacteria that were "eating" the tunnels near Hoboken, thus producing the former, distinctive "Hoboken Smell"?). While I don't have any pictures of the H&M segments, here is picture of a steel segment from roughly the same time (it's actually 7 years newer) in similar ground conditions.
Last, the PATH is not truly IRT-compatible. PATH equipment will still need to meet more stringent safety requirements than the subway. But even for non-revenue service, the PATH trippers are on the other side from the IRT, and PATH has tighter curves.
From what I understand, the PATH cars can run on the IRT, but not vica-versa. I'm sure if they day came that a merger of the systems were proposed, a one-size-fits all car could be built, and the existing IRT cars would have the same relationship to the Hudson Tubes that the 75-footers on the B Division have with the J/L/M/Z today.
As far as the flying junction, the connections colud be made from the outside sections of the tubes and would then drop under the Christopher Street tracks to head over to the East Side (can't go over because the IRT Seventh Ave. tracks are in the way).
The older PATH cars (before the PA-# series) would probably have been operable on the IRT. They would have needed modification to trip on the other side. Current PA-# cars would likely have clearance issues on the IRT as they bow out at the waistline - they required some modifications to the PATH tunnels, and they still clip the walls occasionally (I was on a car a couple months ago that scraped the wall at the Grove crossover).
Regardless of the spatial possibilities for building new junctions, for the reasons I gave earlier the PA is likely to have the heebie-jeebies about opening up any of the ring sections. Every time there's a critical issue (like the dredging accident in the westbound downtown tube, or the leaks at 9th Street) they've always just slapped some quick-curing concrete on it and tried not to think about it too much. Speaking of which, the westbound midtown tunnel is (was) only 1/4" plate iron on the outside of 6 courses of brick. I bet that iron is long gone...
Whoch brings up a side question -- I'm sure the TA has tunnel inspectors for their own lines and PATH has inspectors for their, but do the two agencies talk to each other -- or at least talk to each other better than the MTA and the Port Authority do -- about the conditions of the shared portion of Sixth Ave. between Ninth and 32nd streets?
I don't know. They're on different levels for parts of that distance, and they're different types of construction from different times. I expect that if either noticed a problem in their area, they'd communicate it to the other, but I don't know how formalized that channel is.
Free transfers to the IND/BMT would be at 33rd Street and WTC.
They could reconfigure the 33rd street complex to transfer, but there's no way to reconfigure the WTC.
And PATH at WTC is a lot closer to the IRT (1-9) than to the IND or BMT. The only practical way to connect to A/C/E/N/R at WTC would be to make the whole mall area under fare control.
That would not be necessary. When the escalators were replaced at 51/Lex, they allowed a walking transfer between the IRT and IND at 59th Street. All that would be needed is for the turnstiles to be programmed to allow a transfer within two hours if the trip started on PATH or if you were transferring to PATH. Of course, PATH would need MetroCard Tunrstiles and MetroCards.
Each station and bus line has a unique code number which determines validity of transfers. They would assign code numbers to PATH and then have the turnstiles recognize the code and allow a free transfer. No exit swipe is needed- just swip at the other system.
Why have the MTA take over PATH, when we can raise the subway fare and use the money to keep the PATH fare low without a takeover?
Without a takeover, we can increase class sizes in NYC kindergartens and use the money for PATH instead.
Here's the URL...
http://idonline.com/dr99/concepts/dd_list.html
I'm not sure if it's real or computer generated or real. But computer generations wouldn't have reflections on the floor and the floor wouldn't be textured. Also note the advertisements.
I'm not sure if it's real or computer generated or real. But computer generations wouldn't have reflections on the floor and the floor wouldn't be textured. Also note the advertisements.
The photo is too small for me to tell if it's real or computer-generated. However, it is possible for computer-generated renderings to have things like reflections, textures, and other images. It all depends on what software you're using and how much effort you're willing to put into creating the rendering.
-- David
Chicago, IL
Frohm now on, I wil bee rahyting my mesahjez in a fonetik wey.
Be my guest, but kindly brush up on your IPA (International Phonetic Alphabet) first.
Yawn
These seem to be on the other end of the spectrum unlike the R32, these seem to be the most despised cars. Just barely nudging out the R142.
Now, I don't live in NYC and have never ridden a subway, but I'd just like to know what everyone is basing this "Hippo Myth" on.
If the R68 is quieter than most other subway cars, then that can be a major factor. Before Houston's RTS buses went to that bus depot in the sky (sniff), they seemed like some of the fastest buses in the fleet, actually, they were quite slow. What made them seem so fast is that they put on a show. The ubs would be so lound and make that famous RTS whine that it sounded like you were going 80 when you were barely over 30. On the other hand, our Neoplan Artics remind me of hippos. Even though they take off just as fast an RTS, they are nearly silent so it seems as if you're in for a slow, cumbersome ride.
So, if you're on something that rattles and makes a bunch of noise, of course it's going to seem like it's going faster than something quieter, especially a subway car, which has regulated speeds over certain tracks if I'm not mistaken.
So really, is the R68 as slow as so many make it out to be? Or, is your mind playing tricks on you?
I believe the R-68s slowness is based mainly on its seemingly slower accelleration and the same seeming slowness on uphill climbs compared with other cars. Once it gets up to speed it may be roughly equiavlent to the R-32 through R-46 series, but it just seems to take longer to get there.
Perhaps 0-to-40 time trials along the Brighton line or on CPW are in order to either prove or disprove the theory once and for all (though for 99.9 percent of the riding public, the reliability of the cars is far more important than a minute or so shaved off the trip, so Train Dude's high MBDF number for the Concourse R-68As trumps any MPH number difference between them and the R-40s on the Brighton or the R-38s along CPW)
R68A MUs are not shopped out of Concourse, only Coney Island.
R68 MUs are shopped at both Coney and Concourse.
R68A MUs ARE however layed up/stored at Concourse for "B" service.
Because these are the quietest trains of the system, and the smoothest, I think that a lot of the perceived slowness is just that-perceived. Cars like the R32 make a lot more noise and do a lot of shaking (though they do seem like very good cars on their own terms) so it's easy to see how they seem faster.
It may be that the R68 accelerates a little slower than some others, but I'm pretty sure it's just as fast as the other cars in the long run.
Non-subtalkers have no problems with the R68. It and the R62 are well liked by most people I talk to (who obviously don't call it by the car class number, but by the lines they serve.) My wife, for instance, prefers the more "modern" trains of the N to the older ones (yup! The R46) on the R. I'd say that the silver interior is cheerier than the R44/46, even if there is a homey feel about the latter. The only problem with the silvedr is all the scratchiti (though you'll notice that's often a problem on the windows, as with any car class, than anywhere else.)
So my take on the R68: Not my own favorite, not great looking (though I think better looking than the post-GOH R44 or R46), but a nice, reliable, and modern car.
(BTW it seems the R142 deserves its bad Subtalk rep even less.)
:-) Andrew
...and one not-so-unimportant perk of the R68 (and also the R62), GREAT rollsigns, just about the best signs of the whole fleet. You can tell what line it is from a mile away.
:-) Andrew
No, because the ride on a Hippo takes alot longer. In the 6th ave dash the ride on a Hippo seems about 20 seconds longer than a Slant R40. Granted it's not a big difference.
Also the braking sucks, you can't get those damn things to stop.
On 6th ave when an F pulls aside a Hippo the F train of R46's always seems to stop first and it's doors open before the B or D train.
I've seen this on numerous occasions.
The top speed on an R68 may not differ that much from other cars, but acceleration and braking are ALOT slower. Alot of this I believe has to do with the fact R68's are the heaviest cars in the system. Something heavier will take longer to accelerate and to stop. Simple law of physics.
20 Seconds? 20 seconds? Do you know that 20 seconds can be made up by simply jogging off the train?
Now you may say that 20 seconds could mean missing a train and catching one. But let's look at it this way; An R40 arrives at a station 20 seconds before an R68. You find out that your connection left 20 seconds ago. You say, "Those damn hippos, 20 seconds too late!" But guess what? The guy in the R32is still standing on the platform as well cursing the subway sytem in genral because as he got off of his "speedy" R32, the train was already pulling out. Alas, an R32 AND a whole 20 seconds couldn't get him that connection.
That R40 is supposed to be R32.
No, because the ride on a Hippo takes alot longer. In the 6th ave dash the ride on a Hippo seems about 20 seconds longer than a Slant R40. Granted it's not a big difference.
Don't use alot so callously. It doesn't mean the same as "not a big difference." And it's true. It isn't a big difference.
Also the braking sucks, you can't get those damn things to stop.
I've never felt any braking problems on a train. I've never had a train miss its mark and overshoot the station. How would you know that the brakes suck? Have you ever operated an R-68?
On 6th ave when an F pulls aside a Hippo the F train of R46's always seems to stop first and it's doors open before the B or D train.
I've seen this on numerous occasions.
You've seen this because of perception. A person is more likely to notice that the train across the platform opens its doors first than noticing that one's own train opens its doors first. It's obvious that this cannot have occured always, since you would not always ride with the trains entering the station at exactly the same time.
The top speed on an R68 may not differ that much from other cars, but acceleration and braking are ALOT slower.
We already know we can't trust you to use the word alot accurately.
Alot of this I believe has to do with the fact R68's are the heaviest cars in the system. Something heavier will take longer to accelerate and to stop. Simple law of physics.
No. Gravity accelerates everything equally. Acceleration is independent of mass. What it does take is more FORCE, and therefore energy, and therefore power.
The 75 foot cars were made with motors with higher power output to compensate for the greater mass. However during GOH the MTA decided to standardize motor sizes so the 60 foot cars became more powerful, leading to the speed problems that forced them to disconnect field shunting to compensate. However for 75-foot cars this was not a problem but field shunting was disconnected anyway.
The whole acceleration and deceleration thing means that the R-68 are best suited for EXPRESS runs, not local runs. Therefore the decision to run R-40s on the Brighton local and R-68s on the express makes sense even without considering the rollsigns.
We already know we can't trust you to use the word alot accurately.
Especially since there is no such word as "alot," but there is a phrase "a lot."
"alot" is another example of what I was referring to a few weeks ago. Dey is murderin' my language.
Perception plays a great part in some evaluations of trains on Subtalk. As for the facts, the R-68 is about 4,000 Lbs heavier than the R-46. They both have the same HP rating. They both have the same brake system. However, the R-68s are adjusted so that they can draw more current on accelleration so both cars will accellerate at the same rate. Since the R-68 service and emergency variable load valves are calibrated differently than the R-46s and the dynamic brake current of the R-68 is slightly higher, the R-68s and R-46s brake at the same rate. However, the R-68 has a WABCO brake valve (Since SMS) that out-performs the NYAB Brake valve. Hence, most people who know what they are talking about would disagree with you about the R-68 braking.
By the way: The Concourse R-68 MDBF for April was 315,000 miles while the R-46 was 140,000, the R-44 was 78,000 and the R-68A was 159,000. The Concourse R-68 MDBF has been over 200,000 miles for 8 consecutive months. Yup, they sure do suck.
If you'll indulge a subfan's curiosity, what is an HP rating?
:-) Andrew
Horsepower Rating. I believe all cars are rated at 115 HP per motor with 4 motors per truck or car. I forgot.
I believe it's horsepower. All NYCT cars through R-68A use 4 115 HP traction motors.
HP is short for horsepower, the unit of power which is commonly
used to rate the performance of motors. It was literally based
on the amount of work that a single horse can produce, i.e.
that a certain amount of weight could be lifted at a certain speed.
All current NYCT subway cars, other than the R110 and 142 fleets,
use four 115 horsepower motors per car.
It was literally based on the amount of work that a single horse can produce.
Since not all horses can do the same work at the same speed, it was mainly an arbitrary creation by (ironically) James Watt.
Somewhere at NIST there must be a standard horse that can be
used for calibrating power measurement instruments.
The Watt is the official unit of power measurement. Whore's Power is just converted from the Watt.
It's the rating that Hewlett-Packard gives to the trains. :-)
But seriously, Watts are better than horsepower. When was the last time somebody actually used a horse for powering anything?
Well, here's another question form yours truly; what is the fascination with the Redbird cars? From what I've gathered on this board, it seems that it's just the fact that they're very old and painted red.
I've never heard them doing anything special in the maintenence department, though people will commonly assume since they've been on the road 40+ years, they MUST be very good cars. But you can keep a piece of junk on the road longer than the average life time (SEPTA and WMATA RTS-03s, NJTs Grumman-Flxible Rejects).
It seems to me that the Rust- er I mean, REDBirds have been the lucky recipients of a lax car retirement plan, GOH programs, no emission standards, being old, and painted red.
So from what I've gathered from the Redbird fans here is that you MUST love these cars because (1), they're RED, (2) they're OLD, and (3), they're SIMPLE. Well two of those reasons are ass backward arguments and one is inane and non-sensical.
So, someone please tell me what's SOOOOOO good about these 40 year old shells.
Well, fascination woth older soon to be retired subway cars goes with the territory. A certain type car that has been around for X amount of years becomes ingrained into the woodwork and a piece of everyday life. When impending retirement is on the horizon, we ride and photograph these cars since time is running out.
The same phenomenom about the Redbirds I too experienced with the reirement of the BMT Standards and Triplexs (D Types). The same goes for buffs living in the Bronx whose territory was once Low-V types. When the impending last of the Low-Vs were retired from the Bronx 3rd Ave. "el", the Redbird phenomenom was there.
If you go back a generation or two, the older buffs expierenced the same Redbird phenomenom with the retirement of the last streetcars. You can use this type phenomenom with buses too.
So, it basically comes with the territory. We feel this way when a certain type subway car etc. will soon no longer be a part of the our daily lives. When they're gone, they're gone for good.
Bill "Newkirk"
While I love new car equipment more than old cars, I'll admit the redbirds are kinda cool. Mainly because they are loud, rough, gritty and the brakes squeal. All those reasons are also why I like the NYC subway. Of course, if I had to ride them everyday, listening to all those things I liked, I'd probably start disliking them. In addition to the reasons I stated, the 7 line is cool becasue there are some great views of the city, so maybe the views combined with the noises they make also adds to the appeal of the redbirds.
From the time I was a child I enjoyed the sounds of the old equipment that I knew, and which I described to you in an e-mail . When I became a subway commuter and later employee I still enjoyed the sounds of the old relics, never got tired of it and even now still envision myself running those old things.
Running GE diesels and hearing them years later reminds me of the sounds of the old Alco's I liked.etc etc
To my generation who loved the rails the sounds of traction motors, clattering over jointed rail, the rock and roll ride over same, were railroading. It wouldn't be good for attracting business nowadays though, whether Amtrak or rail transit.
If you're a railfan I don't think you'd get to dislike those sounds.
And that's why I personally want to see them retired. In high school, I had to ride those Methuselahs on the 2 and 5 every day to and from school. I personally hated all the breakdowns, the faulty air-condtioning and heat and all that peeling paint and rust - and slow speeds on the 2 line. I felt jealous that other lines had much newer or newer looking cars, such as the R32s, R40s, R46s, R62/62As and R68/68As. It also made me think that the TA didn't care about the 2 and 5 or the many people in the Bronx who ride them. The fact that the 2 and 5 also had the oldest signals, rotting station canopies, poor lighting and were among the last lines to get MetroCard turnstiles didn't make things any better. Finally the stations, lighting, signals and turnstiles were improved. But now the cars need to be replaced. THEY'RE ROTTING AND RUSTING AWAY! THEY NEED TO BE REPLACED! THAT'S ALL THERE IS TO IT!
Here I go for the ultimate blasphemy here - watch my back, guys ... I hated the redbirds when they were NEW ... they displaced my beloved LoV's ... when the R1/9's went byebye (same for the LoV's) everyone was happy to see the "old junk" go ...
They belong in a museum (redbirds that is) and it'll be a genuine shame if none are preserved for that purpose ... but alas, the purpose of a subway is to move people safely and efficiently and those things were rusting out in the 1960's ... I shudder to think of what I'd see if I were to open a door panel and look inside.
Enjoy them for what they were, go ride some while you still can and PRAY that some of them will end up in a happier place where you can ride one for fun without it getting in the way of the "real" railroad. It's time for them to go. (sniff)
A few times I've seen the inside of some of the door panels on the Redbirds. It wasn't a pretty sight. Rust, rust, rust everywhere. But I will try to get pictures of them before they're gone. Sure it won't be the same without them, but they are rusting away. Their time has come. Perhaps if they were made by Budd (then they'd have to be Silverbirds) they could stay in service longer. But that's not the case. The 2, 5 and 7 lines need to have modern subway cars.
That's OK, you shoulda seen some of the cabs I saw in some of them back in 1970/71 ... I *know* it was downhill from there. I'm just amazed that the cars aren't entirely made of Bondo ... anyone try putting magnets on the sides to see? :)
I wouldn't be surprised if some of them are. Bondobirds, anyone?:-)
Ah, but these cars are painted BRIGHT red! There is something garishly appealing about them, espcially contrasting the mojnotony of all stainless steel throughout the rest of the system.
I suppose the redbirds are part of the "charm" of today's IRT. The noise, the jerky motion (you can get serious motion sickness on these things), the jolt of the brakes. That plus the elevated lines, obscenely tight curves, and vintage stations and it's all part of the experience which screams "ancient historical NYC subway".
But...the IRT is not just a historical trail. It's a route commuters depend on. And these cars have seriously outlived their usefulness. I look forward to seeing some R62s on the (7), and for the redbirds to become the history they really are. They're beautiful cars, but they've got to go, the sooner the better!
:-) Andrew
I should add that the "history" aspect of the redbirds is slightly fictionalized. These cars have only been painted this bright red color since the mid 1980's, and in fact painted steel cars were on the B-divison lines to up until 1993.
:-) Andrew
Coming from someone who "doesn't live in New York"
and "have never ridden the subway" this querie
makes as much sense as any of us NYers asking
"What the woop-dee-doo over the Alamo, compadre?"
No matter what we say, no matter what we
describe, our answers will not do justice
to anyone (not even Houston) mystical wondering..
..... until thy comes and sees the NYC Subways
in all their third rail glories--firsthand.
How does it not make sense? I DON'T live there you genuis so DUH, I would have to ask what's the big fuss over rusted pieces of worn out shit from the people who DO live there.
But I suppose you only posted that to skirt over the issue at hand. I suppose you have no real reason for liking the very old, rusted, worn, dirty, squealing brake equipped, bad A/C having, hideous red colored, dirty railfan windowed, jerky, noisy, subway cars you painstakingly defend.
Your logic, as you have just proved, is quite stupid. I won't call you stupid though, as I'm sure you have SOME strong suits, but obviously you choose to hide them from this board. I must say, you're doing very well.
...the very old, rusted, worn, dirty, squealing brake equipped, bad A/C having, hideous red colored, dirty railfan windowed, jerky, noisy, subway cars you painstakingly defend.
Every one of those is a correct description.
Oh God, there's that word "mystical" again . . .
When it comes time for them to implode the now-nearly-useless Astrodome, and the Houston Chronicle and all the local TV stations start running tomes about how a piece of the city's history will soon be gone forever, you'll get a general idea about how some of us feel about the Redbirds (for all I know you may want to blow the damn concrete edifice up today, but I guarantee there will be a lot of people in Houston who'll want to preserve it, even if it's only used for stock shows, rodeos and motocross races 10 times a year).
As has been said, most of us will miss something that's prety much been part of our lives for as long as we can remember. I remember my first trip to Yankee Stadium in 1963 (8-2 over the K.C. Athletics) was uptown in an old Low V, but back home in a brand new and bright red R-29 -- not that I knew it was an R-29 back then, but it was new, and a lot nicer than that old thing we went uptown from Grand Central on (showing that I had the same feeling back then about the Low Vs that a lot of people on the board have today about the `Birds)
Personally, I was never too hot on the R-21 and R-22 series and wasn't unhappy to see the R-62s take their place, but the remaining cars on the IRT, particularly the R-33/36 WFs were pretty much the culmination of the New York City subway's 60-year experience with carbon steel-bodied rolling stock. And I still think the World's Fair color scheme on the Flushing Line was the best looking cars, exterior and interior, the TA ever produced. And despite the abuse the St. Louis Car Co. takes, the last series of Redbirds has been among the most reliable in the MTA's fleet -- rusty, but reliable.
Nothing lasts forever, and I'm sure five or six years from now we'll go through the same thing when it's time for the Slant 40s to make way for the R-160s (Slant fans seemingly being far more numerous than R-38 or R-42 fans on the board). all things come to an end, but that doesn't mean we all have to rejoice about it.
Speaking as another non-New Yorker (but as somebody who has ridden the NYC subway a few times), the Redbirds don't have much meaning to me aside from being red, old, and somewhat rickety. Don't get me wrong, I appreciate vintage subway cars just like the next railfan, but I appreciate them much better in museums or on fantrips, as opposed to enduring them on my everyday commute.
But then, I never grew up with the Redbirds like some others here have, so there's no emotional connection for me. I've always had a much greater appreciation for the newer modern stuff (Boston's Bombardier 01800's come to mind). But then, maybe I'll start getting more sentimental when the R62's or the CTA 2600's start reaching retirement age. I guess it all depends on which cars you happened to be riding while "coming of age" as a railfan.
-- David
Chicago, IL
I don't fell any sentiment for any car that's out there now. Maybe if I get more accustomed to one for like thirty years.
That's what I meant. By the time the R62's or 2600's are due for their scrapyard appointments, I probably will have ridden them about 20-30 years and will have developed some sort of emotional bond.
Of course, 20-30 years from now, hopefully I will have designed their replacements, so maybe I'll be very eager to see them retired. :-)
-- David
Chicago, IL
Things I, as a seasoned NYC commuter,
appreciate most about the "redbirds":
1) If an emergency were to arise where I needed to stop the train,
pulling the cord will do so, without any computer second-guessing
where the train happens to be.
2) No "ding-dong". What good is that insipid noise? It just tells
me that I'm 1 second too late to grab the doors.
3) They are generally the loudest cars inside and out. Drowns out
all the chatter from fellow passengers.
4) They have the worst PA systems. Good. I'd rather have no
announcements at all than those droning R142 automated announcements.
Most crew announcements are unintelligible or wrong anyway.
I'd just as soon not be disturbed by them. Besides, it's amusing
to watch the panic on the faces of the tourists.
5) On a precious few cars (the former "Corona" 33/36 fleet) there are
still battery lights and the main lights wink out when going over
third rail gaps. I think that's pretty cool, and it also freaks out
the tourists.
6) They are the only cars in the system left with marker lights.
Since the user-friendly color-coding system of 1979 does not provide
unique identification of oncoming trains, that leaves only the marker
lights. Unfortunately, most newer motormen have no idea what they
are for or what the correct setting is.
In how many emergencies is it beneficial to stop the train?
The ding-dong is a pleasant sound that says subway.
Chatter is quieter than that horrible noise. I only mind walkman noise. Speaking of those, if you don't like chatter, use one of them.
Then instead of a voice, you'd hear noise, which is worse. Don't like the announcement, see part two of #3.
I don't see how that's good. It interrupts one's reading (another way not to pay attention to chatter) if one is doing that. The subway is not there to entertain passengers with the bewilderment of others.
How does the user friendly system NOT tell you where the train is going? It's only a problem with a few stations on the A and 5. Train markings should be common knowledge and not esoteric. And the MTA doesn't care. There are no marker light settings today and it is official MTA practice to set it to Red-Red.
1. Mostly those in which someone or something is being dragged.
2. No, a pleasant sound that says "subway" is the electric
release of an R-9 car. Ding-dong is Mickey Mouse.
3. I don't want to schlep around a walkman-like device. White
noise is the best background music. Alright, an R10 full of
flats with the windows open was a little intense.
4. See 3
5. Most eye care professionals recommend taking periodic breaks
from reading or other close work.
6. Stand on the platform of a Manhattan trunk line.
I'll take #2 a step further. Another pleasant subway sound is the moaning and groaning of spur-cut bull and pinion gears. Not to mention pneumatic doors and throbbing air compressors.
yea man !! sweet music to me !!! .........!!
In regard to 4, the redbirds don't have an intercom so when the crew has to talk to each other it is over the PA so you might get a hint as to what the problem is.
"GO CHANNEL 4" at least you know they are talking about the problem but now with the new cars having I/C's you can't tell.
1. Oh yes. That is also helpful when rowdy teens also pull the cord for no reason.
2. It tells me that the doors are closing.
3. Also prevents you from hearing at anything higher than 14,000 Hz. Normal human hearing drops off at 18,000-20,000Hz. I just love it when my hearing gets worse, don't you?
4. Yes, they do have the worst PA systems. But it often comes out as: "AKNDHSIHFOSADF!!!!!!", real loud and painful-like. And, I especially like it when I don't hear an announcement about a GO and then find myself passing a station I have to get off at. Isn't that loads of FUN!!!
5. Yes. I'm sure that everybody here also enjoys your fascination with flashing lights. I can get a strobe light for you, and hook it up real nice so that you can watch it when your outside and that trick doesn't work. It's also nice to see tourists freak out (Really, it is quite amusing).
6. Yes. Marker Lights. Let's keep the Redbirds because they have marker lights. Who needs technology like air conditioning and intelligible announcements when you have the great marker light technology. That technology is sooooo cooool! Much cooler than any letter or number code identifiable by passengers. Matter-of-fact, why don't we just keep the redbirds because they have marker lights. Everybody loves a marker light! Let's bring back those other oldie technologies, like wood subway cars, incandescant bulbs in cars and real ceiling fans! All those technologies were the best. But most importantly, we must have marker lights, even though nobody, even TA workers, use them.
(Got a little carried away there. Sorry).
I didn't say any of those were reasons for keeping the older
cars. The original poster merely asked if there was anything
good about the cars, and I listed 6 things that came to mind.
But as far as marker lights go, had I designed the R142,
I would have included them and, to avoid incorrect settings,
had the same computer that was displaying all of the automatic
signs automatically display the correct marker lights. There's
no rule that says every rookie passenger needs to know what every
light on the car is for!
The Times has one of the ongoing analyses chewing on the recent census in Most Cities in U.S. Expanded Rapidly Over Last Decade. They seem to be linking transit with decline, concluding:
"Of the 28 cities that grew by more than 25 percent in the 1990's, an average of only 2.5 percent of the people in those cities used mass transit. But on average, the 11 cities where more than 20 percent of residents use subways and buses had flat growth. Of these cities, New York grew the fastest, at 9 percent."
" 'This makes public transportation a double-edged sword for cities,' " [Harvard Researcher] Glaeser said. 'One the one hand, it takes care of poor residents, which is admirable. But on the other hand, it attracts the poor who create a host of urban problems.' "
This is a rather odd take, because it shows how much transit has come to be viewed as a social service in as "progressive" a medium as The Times, rather than a method of enabling a work force to live decently in a location remote from the workplace.
Of course, poor people who are transit dependent are going to live where they can get about inexpensively, but what do these policy wonks suggest as an alternative? Make being poor illegal?
A glaring hole in their reasoning is that the two biggest transit cities, NY and Chicago, both grew. They cite Philadelphia as an example of a high-transit city that declined, but they ignore the suburban regions of all Philly (and NY and Chicago, for that matter) that have well-developed commuter systems, which, in case no one noticed, are also mass transit.
It is about time the researchers began to view urban areas by the British term "conurbation," which encompasses metropoltan areas. It is not only the corporate cities that define a region.
It sounds like the study also ignores that transit is also most developed in mature cities of the north and east, which one would expect to be growing more slowly than newer cities of the sunbelt. There are reasons for this, such as the fact that the older cities grew up before the automobile.
I think it would be really dumb to conclude that the presence or lack of public transportation is really what determines growth. I mean, would Philadelphia suddenly boom if we ripped up our subway and el system? I don't think anyone would suggest that.
Mark
I think some of this reasoning is laughable. The notion that mass transit attracts the poor (and by implication encourages the predominance of poverty) is a conclusion looking for evidence. Yes, people without carsare dependent on mass transit. But these include industrious, talented, professional people in a variety of fields - look at recent migration to Astoria, Roosevelt Island, Jersey City (next to, and dependent on, HBLR and PATH), as well as development in Atlanta.
Studies have repeatedly shown that mass transit development increases property values. That is clear. Now, increased residential density occurs too - and that's when single family homes are replaced by multiple-unit dwellings. Some of these people will obviously have incomes insufficient to buy a house i their choice of neighborhoods.
In contrast to NY, look at Las Vegas' growth. The strip is full of hotels, sure, and there are tony developments. But the sprawl in the desert has brought poverty and crime to the area. One of Las Vegas Metro Police' Area Commands was, 10-12 years ago, rather rural in character, almost sleepy. Now the officers respond to shootings, gang fights, drug overdoses and burglaries every night.
I do not imply that lack of transit encourages poverty, either. I don't have data showing that.
Unfortunately the car is a way of life and most people will use them even to avoid walking a few blocks.
As you state commuter rail is also mass transit so that does give the train in any form recognition.
Behind it all my feeling is that most people that can afford it will have their own patch of ground and their own home so that means suburbia except for outlying places like parts of Queens, Brooklyn, SI, and North Bronx. But then these people do a lot of express bus riding too and I won't go into detail for a good part of the reason for it..not my feelings but you all know why.
The thing the reporters forget is that the older big cities have been there a mighty long time and most of the growth areas have grown where there was a lot of room to do so; the NY and Chi suburbs grew as separate towns/villages, whatever.
What I dislike in the piece is the phrasing of the observation which suggests a causative relationship between transit and lack of growth.
I don't have a problem with researchers having a point of view, but conclusions from research should be based on more than casual observation.
It reminds me of the story of the scientist who called in his colleagues to report a scientific breakthrough. He placed two frogs on a table, facing away. He clapped his hands loudly, and shouted "JUMP." The frogs readily leaped. Then he bound one frog's legs. He clapped and shouted again, but only the unbound frog jumped. Finally he bound the other frog, and repeated the experiment, clapping and shouting even more loudly, but neither frog moved.
"You see," he intoned, "when you bind a frog's legs, he becomes deaf."
Yeah, that's about right.
Did this social "researcher" get paid through a grant from the Auto Club?
The article also conveniently forgets to mention that Detroit, one of the biggest losers in the population game, has virtually no public transit system. It is, after all, Motor City.
-- David
Chicago, IL
The article also conveniently forgets to mention that Detroit, one of the biggest losers in the population game, has virtually no public transit system. It is, after all, Motor City.
-- David
Chicago, IL
The New York Times has often in recent years been criticized for allowing opinion to seep into their news stories. This just seems like another case of it.
Of course, if some social scientist did a survey of mass transit and urban environments using only top New York Times executives as a guide, they would likely conclude that no mass transit is needed in the largest American cities, because it is not used by the people who live there.
They didn't question the study author about how he reached certain conclusions. The story lended credibility to what sounded like an off-the-cuff remark.
The link with transit was stupid. The idea that people are fleeing from the poor, and their burdens, is the real correlation.
We used to argue about this all the time at DCP when I was there. The car lovers would say that cities have declined because the preference for driving and backyards is universal. I argued that SOME people prefer that while others prefer the advantages of a city environment, with share amenities like parks and transit.
The near universal urban decline, in my view, has been driven by fiscal issues, with the burdens of the poor concentrated on those who live near them. Suburbs are attractive precisely because they use zoning to keep housing affordable to the less well off out -- even when they need them as workers. The fiscal burden on the cities is tremendous. If NYC was a separate state, it would have the second highest taxes (as a share of income) and the second lowest public school spending (also as a share of income) in the United States. THAT is what people are leaving, not mass transit.
Get a city where services have not collapsed, and were the tax burden, while high, is not so high as to offset urban advantage -- and you get people desperate to move in and housing prices through the roof (ie. Manhattan, Brownstone Brooklyn, Boston, San Francisco, parts of Chicago.
You're dead right, Larry.
Here's one city that really proves your point (well, they all do):
Houston. Why Houston? Houston has the power to annex neighborhoods. Several times in the past, when a new, tony, ritzy neighborhood went up outside city limits, full of people who didn't want to contribute a nickel to those they considered "scum" in the city, Houston officials brought out new signs (OK, legislation was passed in city council etc. etc.), and one fine morning this suburban elitists wake up and find out they're back in Houston again!
Why can't New York City be given the right to annex Great Neck?
So you think New York City should be allowed to cherry pick who it could annex. It could annex Great Neck and Port Washington, Old Westbury and Oyster Bay and Massapequa Park, but maybe skip Elmont and Roosevelt and Levittown and Freeport and Hempstead?
And of course the City will be able to charge City income taxes but not slash property taxes to City norms?
And what happens when the voters from the former suburbs have the power to tip the balance to relatively conservative mayors. Remember Giuliani won the Mayoralty in the City as currently constituted. Twice.
Well, I was being somewhat facetious. Yes, annex too many conservative neighborhoods and you get a conservative administration.
Seriously though, I think, overall, NYC neighborhoods gets better public services for the taxes they pay than neighborhoods who depend on Nassau County. I lived in Oakland Gardens until very very recently (and still go back and forth a lot) and there's no way I would choose to live in Great Neck (in preference to the general area of Oakland Gardens, Bayside, Bay Terrace or Little Neck) even if I were offered a substantial tax inducement (which I wouldn't be).
So you think New York City should be allowed to cherry pick who it could annex. It could annex Great Neck and Port Washington, Old Westbury and Oyster Bay and Massapequa Park, but maybe skip Elmont and Roosevelt and Levittown and Freeport and Hempstead?
I wouldn't consider Levittown in the same category as Elmont and Roosevelt et al.
I was adding Levittown as a dense area that would generate high school and municipaal costs but wouldn't produce an income tax bonanza for the City.
(Houston. Why Houston? Houston has the power to annex neighborhoods. Several times in the past, when a new, tony, ritzy neighborhood went up outside city limits, full of people who didn't want to contribute a nickel to those they considered "scum" in the city, Houston officials brought out new signs (OK, legislation was passed in city council etc. etc.), and one fine morning this suburban elitists wake up and find out they're back in Houston again!)
There was a book several years ago that argued that successful cities annex, but the argument was a-historical. Remember, NYC annexed five counties. Sooner or later, Houston will be prevented from annexing as well.
BTW, the Manhattan Institute wants rich areas of Manhattan to be allowed to secede from Brooklyn, the Bronx and Queens.
"Remember, NYC annexed five counties."
Yeah, but Nassau County was created by splitting off half of Queens.
"BTW, the Manhattan Institute wants rich areas of Manhattan to be allowed to secede from Brooklyn, the Bronx and Queens"
Well, I suppose we could do the next best thing. We could allow a certain section of Manhattan to become a private association. No non-residents or renters allowed. No one without special stickers allowed to drive through the gates. All subways run express through stations in that district (to prevent slime buckets like you and me from setting foot in the district).
In return for which NYC would charge 3X the normal property tax rate, charge a maintenance fee for other services equal to 3x the income tax rate, cancel all previous tax abatements for businesses and landowners, charge a $7 toll to enter any NYC road from the district ($6 if you have EZPass), and (you fill in what you want).
That's fair, don't you think?
Don't forget redlining. That practice left would-be homeowners with no choice but suburbia.
Mark
The Times article is worse than you know.
It turns out that the Census Bureau has been missing a huge share of the apartments in older central cities for some times. We found this out when we were permitted, by new legilation, to check the address list. All cities had that chance, some did the work, some flubbed it.
Both New York and Chicago submitted tens of thousands of missed addresses. Philadelphia didn't bother. That explains some of the trends.
Larry,
Yes, NYC did pay attention to this, and thus the census count was more accurate in the end. Even if it had not been true, Glaeser draws a conclusion from data which appears to be, at best, in the category of "true and unrelated." At worst, he's written a little piece of fiction.
(Yes, NYC did pay attention to this, and thus the census count was more accurate in the end.)
New York State did little or nothing to help with the census. The people in charge of it for the state weren't given the money. The State of Georgia spent something like ten times the State of New York. The Democrats wanted adjustment, not a more accurate count up front. The Republicans wanted neither, because they figured NYC would be helped.
Most Upstate areas did not bother to review their address list, though they were begged to by the state demographer. Monroe County did, and found 13,000 missed addresses. That's perhaps 39,000 people. New York State missed saving the second congressional seat by 50,000 people.
We could also have picked up 300,000 people in NYC alone with more outreach. The City spent almost nothing as well -- City Planning got a private grant to hire a couple of people, I and other staff members pitched in. Conductors and bus operators should have been making announcements on the day the forms were delivered. All we got was a few posters, that went up a couple of weeks after New Yorkers received the forms and (in many cases) threw them away.
Good thing we did what we did. We would have been undercounted even more, and lost three seats in congress.
New York State did little or nothing to help with the census. The people in charge of it for the state weren't given the money. The State of Georgia spent something like ten times the State of New York. The Democrats wanted adjustment, not a more accurate count up front. The Republicans wanted neither, because they figured NYC would be helped.
Most Upstate areas did not bother to review their address list, though they were begged to by the state demographer. Monroe County did, and found 13,000 missed addresses. That's perhaps 39,000 people. New York State missed saving the second congressional seat by 50,000 people.
We could also have picked up 300,000 people in NYC alone with more outreach.
It boggles the mind trying to figure out why the state didn't make more of an effort. It's not as if there had been any reason for complacency. Even the most provincial New Yorkers knew that there had been a great deal of migration out of the state, mainly in the early 1990's and mainly to the Sunbelt. Things like this are simply amazing. And what's worse is the fact that there's bascially nothing that can be done.
? the useless senseless census ? i wrote on my form in big red felt pen " DROP DEAD " refused to answer any of
the stupid ass questions like i did in detroit back in 1990 and the atlanta in 1980 & turned the water hose on the enumerators!
like hell transit systems are connected wit the stupid census !! geeeezzz!!
That's a nice way to screw yourself and your neighbors (and everybody else in your city). Do you hate them that much?
Census forms did have a lot of questions on them - but really only the most basic ones needed to be answered. The rest can always be left blank.
A few thoughts on your post
A. Your right the census SHOULD have NOTHING to do with transit funding. BUT it does. This is because the federal government steels money from others.
B. Most of the questions on the census do not need to be filled out only a few should be.
C. sallam, THIS IS NOT DIRECTED AT YOU PERSONALLY. Why is it that the people who refuse to fill out even the most basic questions on the census are always the first to complain that they are under funded or under represented?
D. If someone does not pay their taxes of fill out their census form they should not be allowed to vote they should not be allowed on the subway or highways without paying the FULL cost not the one that people who obey the law pay if their house is on fire it should not be put out until it becomes a threat to other houses i and then they should be given the bill if a crime is committed against them the police should not respond and their children should not be allowed in public schools. How many tax cheats would be have then?
This morning's Post had an article about the six subway stations that it feels are in the worst state of disrepair. The stations, in no particular order, are:
- 3rd Avenue, Bronx (6)
- Smith-9th Streets, Brooklyn (F/G)
- Essex Street, Manhattan (J/M/Z)
- 191st Street/St. Nicholas Avenue, Manhattan (1)
- Roosevelt Avenue, Jackson Heights, Queens (E/F/G/R)
- 190th Street, Manhattan (A)
I have to disagree with a few of these. I think there are worse stations in the system. Essex, in particular, is not really bad at all. I think Chambers Street (J/M/Z) is much worse than any of the stations listed.
Anyone?
I have to disagree with a few of these. I think there are worse stations in the system. Essex, in particular, is not really bad at all. I think Chambers Street (J/M/Z) is much worse than any of the stations listed.
And Essex is quite interesting from a railfan's perspective, with the old trolley terminal in plain sight.
But I think the rails in the floor have been removed. Certainly the skeleton of the catenary wiring in the ceiling has been removed. Still, its fascinating, I agree.
Unless they've been removed since February, the rails remain, as does much of the wire. The rails are simply buried in the steel dust.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I'd say Queens Plaza looks worse than Roosevelt Ave-Jackson Heights.
:-) Andrew
I agree, Chamber should be right up there. Having water cascading from the tiles and part of the ceiling might be a good sign that there is a problem. When the hell are they going to do something about this dump????
Stillwell should be on this list yet it's supposed to be coming down. Does anybody know what the dates are for the renovations?
The tragedy about Chambers St is that at one time it must have been a really grand station. Its like an ancient ruin now. There are wires hanging from the ceiling that suggest that elegant lighting fixtures must have once been there, and the colorful tilework on the side platforms must have been really nice once.
What about Lexington Ave / 53rd Street Station ???? (E/F lines). Compare to Chambers it is worst. Also 5 Ave / 53rd Street lower level looks ugly. Do they plan to renovate these stations ??? The best thing to do it right now when there is no weekend service in that tunnel. But I think nobody cares...
How old is Chamber?
Isn't the J line through Bed-Stuy the oldest one in the system? Parts of Bed-Stuy do look like hell on earth! It's stations do not look as bad as chamber. It seems like the MTA have just let it go. Pure neglect in my book. If any stations shouls look bad; they should all be through Williamsburg and Bed-Stuy on the J.
Apparently, someone downtown agrees with at least on of those choices, since 191St on the 1 is scheduled for rebuilding in 2003.
Are there any plans to refurb the 168th street station (1/9) at any point? Talk about grand potential!
Michael B.
Lexington and 53rd on the E & F is terrible. The station looks like it was never finished. I don't know if there are plans to renovate it in the near future, but it is in awful condition.
53rd/Lex on the (E)(F) is ugly, UGLY, UGLY! However, I suspect it's not considered dirty, because I think it's considered finnished, disgusting concrete and all. They probably expect to keep it as is. Yech!
5th Ave/53rd is ugly too.
:-) Andrew
They're ugly, but they're nothing like Chambers on the BMT, which is simply falling apart.
The system was built and operated by the Bi-State Development Agency as part of a fully integrated regional transportation system.
The first 17-mile MetroLink line has 19 stations, (13 at street level, three in subways and three on bridge structures), and 31 light rail vehicles electrically powered from overhead wires, each with a comfortable capacity of approximately 178 people. About 14 miles of the light rail alignment is built on existing rail right-of-way totally renovated for the state-of-the-art light rail technology.
The initial phase operates from Lambert-St. Louis International Airport, along I-70, through the University of Missouri-St. Louis campus, along Forest Park, past Washington University Medical Center, under Union Station, through the Washington/8th Street tunnel under downtown St. Louis, across the rail deck of the historic Eads Bridge to downtown East St. Louis, Illinois.
The second 17-mile extension formally opened this weekend, extending the line eastward into Illinois with 8 additional stations, terminating at Belleville Area College. Construction is presently underway to extend the line north and east to Scott AFB. The ROW has been designated for a short extension past Scott to Mid-America Airport. The Scott extension is estimated to open in the summer of 2003. The Mid-America extension (assuming funding is obtained) is looking at 2005 or 2006. Additional cars were purchased but I forget how many.
The existing line is primarily an East-West route. A second line is in the planning stages, which will be a North-South route. This too will primarily utilize existing RR ROW. The north-south route was originally propsed with some street trackage into downtown Clayton, a wealthy suburb that's also the St. Louis County seat, where the courthouse, many large office buildings and the county administrative offices are located. This would have been perfect as white-collar types could have taken rapid transit to within a block or two of many office buildings. Of course, the NIMBY pukes blocked this so the station and street trackage was moved and will now require a quick shuttle bus ride to the CBD.
The system opened on July 31, 1993. The East Riverfront Station in Illinois and Airport Main Station at Lambert-St. Louis International Airport opened in 1994. MetroLink's Lambert Airport East Station opened in 1998.
Free rides were offered this weekend. While the original line runs through some pretty gritty urban areas, the new extension (once past East St. Louis) becomes increasingly rural, with some segments of the line passing through corn fields. At times, it feels like riding an interrurban! Travel was slow yesterday east of East St. Louis because in the afternoon a fierce thunderstorm knocked a tree down onto one of the two tracks of the new extension. Eastbound trains were held at the stations. Crews were right on it, though, and in about 20 minutes the line was passable again in both directions.
Terminal-to-terminal travel time is about 1:25...assuming no trees on the track! Large park-and-ride lots were constructed at all but one of the 8 new stations. Rush hour headway on the system is 10 minutes and non-rush hour is 17 minutes. Local busses have had their schedules changed to meet arriving trains during rush hour, both eastbound and westbound.
The primary maintenance facility and layup tracks are west of downtown St. Louis. A secondary manintenance facility w/o layup tracks was built about halfway down the new extension.
Yesterday's ride was pleasant and ridership on the new line will probably match the existing line, which is heavy. Good!
Construction is presently underway to extend the line north and east to Scott AFB. The ROW has been designated for a short extension past Scott to Mid-America Airport. The Scott extension is estimated to open in the summer of 2003. The Mid-America extension (assuming funding is obtained) is looking at 2005 or 2006.
I thought Mid-America Airport was Scott AFB, in other words a conversion of a surplus military field to commercial use.
Anyway, that was an interesting description of an often-overlooked transit system. I spent an hour or so at the St. Louis airport in 1997, waiting for a connection, and noticed a couple of Metrolink trains arriving at the airport station quite full (and leaving pretty crowded too). Unfortunately, I didn't have time to ride the system.
<< I thought Mid-America Airport was Scott AFB, in other words a conversion of a surplus military field to commercial use. >>
Scott is still a very active AFB. It's the headquarters for the Military Airlift Command. IIRC, both Scott and Mid-America share some common taxiways but have separate runways and are distinct airports.
Good write-up. This should be cut-and-pasted onto the St. Louis page of this website, since there is no system description there.
Just a few corrections and things to add:
There are two subway stations, 8th-Pine and Convention Center. Bush Stadium is at the mouth of the tunnel, but in daylight. Laclede's Landing is at the other mouth of the tunnel, inside the masonry of the anchor of the Eads Bridge. It's in daylight, too, giving really neat views of the Gateway Arch, framed by Roman-style masonry arches. There are three elevated stations: East Riverfront (on the other end of the Eads Bridge) and the two airport stations. The neatest elevated part of the ride is between the airport and North Hanley, where the track soars very high above the ground amongst the freeway overpasses. You can see trains on this section this section from the air when flying into Lambert Airport.
Neat things along the way:
Delmar station is near an old railroad station. The building looks like a WPA project, too bad it isn't used as part of the MetroLink station. The neighborhood has a lot of neat restraunts, too.
Central West End:
This is a pretty neighborhood. It's a university area, a little on the trendy side, the but architecture is pretty. Walk north and you'll get to Euclid Avenue, where there's a really cool used record store called Euclid Records, complete with clerks full of attitude straight out of the movie High-Fidelity.
Bush Stadium:
Get off here for the International Bowling Museum. If you like the movie The Big Labowski this place will give you flashbacks.
5th and Missouri:
In depressing East St. Louis, catch the 555 bus at 37 minutes past every hour to visit the ruins of another city: Cahokia Mounds. It was the largest pre-Columbian city in what is now the United States, with a peak population of about 20,000 some time in the 1200s A.D. It was very advanced judging from the artifacts. There is a celestial calender there called Woodhenge, and you can see the Gateway Arch from the top of Monk's Mound the highest of the ancient city's earthworks. I was the only passenger for most of the bus ride, and on the return trip, underneath the no smoking sign was a platisc bucket where the driver flicked his cigarette ashes.
I have ridden the Metro Link numerous times waiting for a TWA conncections. Sometimes even timed it for 4 hours or more, so I can eat at Union Station(20 minutes from Airport) ROW next to old Conrail Mainline great for train watching, also 2 stops walking distance from Casinos one in St Louis and the other in East St Louis, Does any other city have rapid transit(Lt or heavy rail or even commuter rail within wa;lking distance to a full service casino? I do not mean the Monorails in Vegas between MGM and Ballys either
You've got the St. Charles streetcar about 4-5 blocks from the riverboat casino in New Orleans.
I know what you mean. I try to fly through Atlanta just so I can ride MARTA.
At what other airports can you take a quick ride during a layover? I just want to know in case I ever pass through any such places.
Mark
At what other airports can you take a quick ride during a layover? I just want to know in case I ever pass through any such places.
Here are the ones that come to mind offhand:
Chicago - O'Hare (CTA Blue Line)
Chicago - Midway (CTA Orange Line)
Atlanta - Hartsfield (MARTA)
Washington, DC - National (Metro)
London - Heathrow (Underground - Piccadilly Line)
Chicago - O'Hare, Cincinnati, Dallas-Ft. Worth, Orlando, and Atlanta, and possibly others, also have people-mover systems which make for a fun way to kill time. O'Hare also has a funky reincarnation tunnel that connects Concourses B and C in the United terminal.
-- David
Chicago, IL
Miami's Tri-Rail (more of a commuter rail line than a subway) has it's terminal just off airport property.
While there is a shuttle bus to and from the station, I imagine it doesn't run all that frequently -- since rail service is only hourly at best. If one just wants to railfan the station and grab a picture of the equipment, you might be better off just taking the Hertz shuttle bus -- the Hertz bus runs every 3-4 minutes and the Hertz lot is right next to the station.
CG
Washington D.C.
Cleveland had the red line rapid transit underground terminal at Hopkins Airport. Hong Kong has a nice express train service to the CBD. Tokyo's Haneda airport is connected to the city via monorail.
>>> At what other airports can you take a quick ride during a layover? <<<
In Los Angeles there is a short bus shuttle to the Green Line. With a transfer to the Blue Line you could easily get to downtown and back in three hours.
Oakland has a short bus shuttle to the BART.
Frankfurt Germany has extensive commuter rail service at the airport.
Tom
The "riverboat" casinos* at Elgin, Aurora, and Joliet are within walking distance of Metra commuter rail stations.
*Riverboats in the sense that they still have to float in the water, but they don't leave the dock. Indeed, newer ones are being built without engines to leave more room for casinos and restaurants. Until a year or two ago, riverboat casinos in Illinois had to at least simulate cruising on the river by pulling up the gangplanks for an hour every two hours or something like that. Now, the pretense of "cruises" has been abandoned and people can enter and leave the boats at all times.
In Joliet, this seems to have brought a large amount of lunchtime business from clerks, attorneys, etc. at the nearby Will County courts and government offices, since there are few attractions in Joliet beyond the casino but they were afraid under the "cruise" system to be stuck on the casino boat when they had to be back at work or in court.
The "riverboat" casinos* at Elgin, Aurora, and Joliet are within walking distance of Metra commuter rail stations.
*Riverboats in the sense that they still have to float in the water, but they don't leave the dock. Indeed, newer ones are being built without engines to leave more room for casinos and restaurants.
At the risk of getting a bit off-topic, the Wall Street Journal had an interesting article about riverboat casinos a few months back. Like all casinos, the riverboat ones not infrequently find themselves the target of lawsuits, in particular when intoxicated patrons leave and get into car crashes. Choice of law then becomes a big issue. Riverboat casinos claim that they're subject to admiralty law rather than to ordinary tort law. It's apparently much more difficult for plaintiffs to win large damage awards under admiralty.
But to qualify for admiralty treatment, the casinos have to prove that they're vessels, which in some circumstances can be quite complicated. One example cited in the article was that of a riverboat casino in Shreveport, which to all intents and purposes appeared to be permanently moored in an oxbow off the Red River. Getting it underway on the river would require several months' worth of excavation and other work and would cost well over a million dollars. Yet the casino owners, faced with a huge liability claim, argued that it was a fully mobile vessel, entitled to the same legal treatment as a cruise ship or oil tanker.
No, I can't remember how the case turned out :-(
On NJT's Philly to Atlantic City line, every train arriving in AC is met by free buses to all casinos. The buses also take gamblers (or others) back to the station prior to each departing train.
I forgot to mention, that the subway stations are worht a look, too. They are part of an old freight tunnel, and the beautiful masonry arches of the old tunnel were incorporated into the modern design. See this site's St. Louis page for photos.
Mark
Nice writeup. I've only been on the Metrolink a few times, and have been quite happy with it every time.
Another Metrolink feature is the free lunchtime shuttle downtown - between 11:30 and 1:30, no charge for trips between Union Station and Laclede's Landing. I guess "office workers who want to eat lunch somewhere else" is an untapped market for mass transit, but St. Louis leads the way! :)
I though this was odd: I read that Amtrak does not use Union Station in St. Louis, but that the station for inter-city trains is located elsewhere, and that some tracks were realigned to accomodate a new Amtrak station. (NARP newsletter.) This seems sad. Is St. Louis' Union Station designated a landmark, and is it used as a stop by Metrolink at least? The newsletter was unclear.
Union Station has been reborn as a shopping mall. I'm not a big mallrat, but it's worth visiting just for the architecture.
Another good stop along the MetroLink for train watching is Grand station. It's in the middle of the Union Pacific freight ROW, and it is accessed from a large street overpass. You descend a long staircase from the middle of the bridge to get to the platform. The bridge and the staircase give great views of the MetroLink trains. I took a picture from there but my camera malfunctioned and it didn't come out!
Mark
I'm not too crazy about Washington's Union Station also being a shopping mall, but at least it still serves trains (in fact, the mall helped save the building -- I can forgive that)! The fact that not just one but 2 train stations in St. Louis have been bypassed for use by passenger trains just sticks in my craw. :O(
Al Beach wasn't the only one who built a pneumatic subway. Take a look at this New York Times article about the mail delivery system which used compressed air and tiny tubes to deliver mail all over Manhattan and to Brooklyn too. The print version of the paper has a map and graphic showing the abandoned "lines," which entrepreneurs now want to use for fiber-optic cables. There's also a picture of one of the power stations in the snail-version of the daily.
...from what I heard I thought GM bribed the post office to abandon the system in favor of GMC trucks. This article doesn't corroborate that at all.
(Mr. Stark said he found records from the early 1930's indicating that there had been at least three incidents of malfunction.)
In the article I read it said that when mail got stuck they had to dig up the streets. Still caused less congestion than a fleet of trucks.
The article also says that trucks are only slightly slower than penumatic tubes. I'd like to see them race at rush hour. ;-)