People are upset about a Local 100 MOVE
Peace,
ANDEE
Roger is also trying to take the bus folks at the "privates" in a new direction (pun intended). I haven't heard any remarks attributed to Gil, who lost the recent election, on the side of the "private" group, but there has been some heated exchanges within local 100.
As an old Teamster I say, Roger may be just flexing his muscles so that everone knows a new guy is in town. I've also heard that he's been giving the "suits" at the TA some grief too ... good for him, but as everyone knows a new broom wears out quickly.
Mr t__:^)
Sounds like what you'd expect of a radical organization.
-Hank
Most of the leadership is sensible (including one former
regular subtalk poster), but study the history of the
French and Russian revolutions.
We have a official of local 100 here who says Roger seems to be a reasonable guy & hopes, as I do, that he gets tired of flexing his muscles.
Mr t__:^)
"Ortiz denied making the statements. He said he was not a bigot and that he worked his way through college at Jewish delis in Crown Heights, Brooklyn."
Yeah and some of his best friends are jews, too. Recently, mr. ortiz reportedly appeared at one maintenance facility on an off tour with a gang of thugs. Their mission, to intimidate a supervisor who was slated to testify at a disciplinary hearing for a new directions member. This is just one of many instances where organizers have reportedly tried to muscle supervisors and managers. One new directions vice president is already considering resigning because he can not control his organizers.
BTW: in the case that led to mr ortiz's firing, his partner had requested a pair of gloves. The supervisor got the gloves and gave them to mr. ortiz to give to his partner. Mr. ortiz demanded gloves stating, "what am I, gefilte fish?" Later when the supervisor gave mr. ortiz gloves, he (mr ortiz) made a comment about another FUc%$#@ jew with guilt, or words to that effect. However, he was not fired for making the remark as much as after the incident and during the hearing, he showed no remorse for saying it.
If the new direction that Local 100 is going isn't done in a prossesional manner and includes respect for the other side, then the "suits" at the TA will have every right to come down on them hard AND the membership will probally respect the management position.
As a old Teaster I had a lot of managers who didn't like me because I was good, but they still respected me for the way I beat them.
Mr t__:^)
I don't see 'What am I, Gefilte Fish?' as a slur any more than I see 'What am I, Chopped Liver?' a slur.
-Hank
Neither did the supervisor involved. it was the second comment that the supervisor took offense to. However, keep in mind how the courts interpret Title VII cases. It is not necessarilly the intent of the speaker. It is the perception of the recipient (or in some cases a third party) that determines what is offensive and what isn't.
I thought a number of folks here might find this amusing - got a cab tour (rules prohibit geese on pointless arrow motors while in service) from a buddy one of the locomotive shops and was just aghast at how much like the other 40's these things are.
So if you're planning to steal one in the middle of the night or want to throw together a cab in your living room, here's everything you need to know about the beasties, straight from the EMD manual. :)
http://gelwood.railfan.net/manual/f40-manual.html
Amazing the things you can find out there in the dead of night.
Fellow SubTalkers,
I am posting the following note at the request of a friend, George Chaisson, Jr. I think you'll find his note of great interest. If you have any comments or questions, please email him directly at widecab5@aol.com
-Todd
==============================================================================================
Hello Everyone:
For those who may not know me, my name is George Chiasson Jr. (ERA #6400).
My address is 21 Warren Ave. in Rockland, Mass. Phone is 781-878-4778. I
visited New York City, occasionally for extended periods, on a regular basis
from 1979 to 1991. Starting in 1982, I worked with Ed Crew of the Transit
Authority and many other individuals to formulate subway fleet updates,
approximately every quarter or as events dictated. These reports were
largely hand-written at first, then typed and finally entered through a Word
Processor as this was the era before PC's were common, and certainly before
the Internet was prevalent.
The IRT was done first, the B-Division followed in 1985. As new cars were
delivered, older ones retired and rebuilt, and different groups assigned
around the system to combat graffiti, every move was tracked as much as
possible, often using information made available from TA sources, and of
course the New York Division "Bulletin." As these initiatives wound down the
reports did as well, and in the Spring of 1991, if not actually a little
before, I moved on to other venues of interest.
My hope was that someone in New York would pick up the "baton" and keep the
roster updates moving along. In the years since I've noted that while there
is meticulous tracking of bus assignments and rostrer changes by a number of
parties, there seems to be no concerted effort to match this activity on the
NYC Transit subway system, at least not to the degree achieved in times past.
As such, I have felt compelled to step into the breach once again and "go
back to work". As we all know, this is a critical time for such information
on the IRT in particular, as the first few trains of new R-142 and R-142A
cars have already entered passenger service with the aim of replacing the
remaining SMEE fleet in its entirety. As previous, and in a purely New York
kind of way, this task will rarely be accomplished in a direct manner, there
are further reassignments and transfers which add an extra dimension to the
proceedings, and increase the challenge of keeping track of what is where.
I hope to interest each and every one of you in making this a participatory
undertaking, which should foster timely and accurate updates from around the
system. Please feel free to share this concept with others whom you feel
could add something as well. As conceived, the process would be thus:
Roster updates would be distributed monthly, or as required if events
dictated. They will be archived and the most recent posted to the Urban
Transit Club web site. The files will also be made available to the New York
Division "Bulletin" (via Randy Glucksman) for them to do as seen fit. Credit
to contributors will be given at the end of each update.
For incoming e-mail, specifically relating to NYC car assignments and
updates, I have established the screen name Widecab5@aol.com. It is
requested that return e-mail be sent to this area as it otherwise would get
lost in the hundreds of messages received daily.
Attached is a DRAFT of the IRT car assignment for January 27, 2001, as best
as I am able to determine. Please get back to me with comments and
corrections as soon as possible. It would be nice to have this posted at the
UTC web site for February 1, 2001. The information will also be forwarded to
ERA "Bulletin" for use as seen fit.
As I am not yet up to speed on the changes which have transpired in the past
decade, I also have included the "last" assignment from May 23, 1991. That
was the date the final four R-33 cars were released from the GOH program at
207 Street, after which assignments (or at least fleet sizes) were to be
"permanent". You can be sure I will scour back issues of the Bulletin to
recoup long-forgotten or ignored update information, but those of you who
wish to chime in with remembrances of your own are also welcome, as the
Bulletin likely didn't have it all (if anything).
Finally is a general roster of present-day IRT rolling stock, with revisions
for the "Redbird" groups as derived from TA records. There are a lot of
technical unknowns on the Redbirds as well, but that's another issue for
another time.
As Ed Crew is not on-line, he and I will be exchanging phone calls and snail
mails with him frequently. Some of you might wish to do the same with other
persons who do not have access to e-mail. If you wish to share such names
and addresses, I will keep them on file, but the resulting rosters will NOT
be distributed by regular mail (as was the case last time around).
B-Division car assignments in my files have a "Graduation" date of January
29, 1993 (completion of R-44 GOH program). However, as on the IRT I
discontinued the roster updates sometime in 1991. In time I will work to get
a B-Division page as well but I'd like to get the IRT side up and running
before branching into another time-consuming project.
Thanks for your time and consideration, any and all input would be greatly
appreciated, and hopefully this can become a strong representation of history
and reality on the New York subway system.
Regards,
George Chiasson Jr.
(Widecab5@aol.com)
----------------------------------------------------------------
IRT Car Assignments-January 27, 2001
1/9 (Red)-320 cars
320 WH R-62A 2156-2475
2 (Black)-452 cars
256 GE R-33 8806-8835, 8846-8883, 8886-8967, 8970-9075
136 GE R-33M 9076-9113, 9115/9212, 9116-9129, 9130/9225, 9132-
9151, 9154-9215
60 Am R-142 6301-6360
3 and S (Blue)-259 cars
259 WH R-62A 1896-1908, 1910-2155
4 (Orange)-413 cars
10 GE R-33 8836-8845
88 GE R-33M 9216-9223, 9226-9305
315 GE R-62 1301-1365, 1371-1435, 1441-1625
5 (Green)-328 cars
54 GE R-26 7750-7803
56 GE R-26M 7804-7859
50 GE R-28M 7860-7909
50 GE R-28 7910-7959
118 GE R-29 8688-8805
6 (Yellow)-521 cars
118 WH R-29 8570-8687
46 WH WF R-36 9478-9523
12 WH R-36 9524-9535
245 WH R-62A 1651-1895
100 Am R-142A 7211-7310
7 (WH-Black, GE-Yellow)-405 cars
39 WH WF R-33 9307-9345
132 WH WF R-36 9346-9477
22 WH R-36 9536-9557
212 GE WF R-36 9558-9769
------------------------------------------------------------------
5/23/91-IRT Car Assignments
1/9 (Red)-336 cars
336 WH R-62A 2140-2475
2 (Green)-362 cars
54 GE R-26 7750-7803
56 GE R-26M 7804-7859
50 GE R-28M 7860-7909
50 GE R-28 7910-7959
118 GE R-29 8688-8805
34 GE R-33M 9096/9097, 9102/9103, 9124/9125, 9140/9141,
9158/9159, 9172/9173, 9206/9207, 9216/9217,
9232/9233, 9242/9243, 9246-9249, 9274/9275, 9292-
9297, 9300/9301
3 (Blue)-230 cars
230 WH R-62A 1910-2139
4 and S (Orange)-369 cars
54 GE R-33M 9076/9077, 9086/9087, 9090/9091, 9098/9099,
9112/9113, 9120/9121, 9128/9129, 9174/9175,
9180/9181, 9194/9195, 9198/9199, 9202-9205,
9208/9209, 9214/9215, 9222/9223, 9256-9259,
9262/9263, 9266/9267, 9272/9273, 9278/9279, 9282-
9287, 9290/9291, 9298/9299
315 GE R-62 1301-1625
5 (Black)-406 cars
268 GE R-33 8806-8967, 8970-9075
138 GE R-33M 9078-9085, 9088/9089, 9092-9095, 9100/9101, 9104-
9111, 9115/9212, 9116-9119, 9122/9123, 9126/9127,
9130/9225, 9132-9139, 9142-9157, 9160-9171, 9176-
9179, 9182-9193, 9196/9197, 9200/9201, 9210/9211,
9218-9221, 9226-9231, 9234-9241, 9244/9245, 9250-
9255, 9260/9261, 9264/9265, 9268-9271, 9276/9277,
9280/9281, 9288/9289, 9302-9305
6 (Yellow)-441 cars
118 WH R-29 8570-8687
30 WH WF R-36 9494-9523
34 WH R-36 9524-9557
259 WH R-62A 1651-1909
7 (WH-Black, GE-Yellow)-399 cars
39 WH WF R-33 9307-9345
148 WH WF R-36 9346-9493
212 GE WF R-36 9558-9769
An overall roster:
1301-1625 GE R-62 KHI 1983-85
1651-2475 WH R-62A Bomb. 1984-87
6301-6980 Am R-142 Bomb. 2000-?
(6981-7210 Am R-142 Bomb. Option)
7211-7610 Am R-142A Kawasaki 2000-?
(7611-7730 Am R-142 Bomb. Option)
7750-7803 GE R-26 ACF 1960 M-K
1986
7804-7859 GE R-26M ACF 1959-60 M-K
1986-87
7860-7909 GE R-28M ACF 1960-61 M-K
1986-87
7910-7959 GE R-28 ACF 1960 M-K
1986-87
8570-8687 WH R-29 St. Louis 1962 M-K
1986-87
8688-8805 GE R-29 St. Louis 1962 M-K
1985-87
8806-9075 GE R-33 St. Louis 1962-63 NYCTA 1989-91
9076-9305 GE R-33M St. Louis 1962-63 NYCTA 1986-89
9306-9345 WH WF R-33 St. Louis 1963 NYCTA 1984-85
9346-9523 WH WF R-36 St. Louis 1963-64 Various 1982-85
9524-9557 WH R-36 St. Louis 1964 M-K
1984-85
9558-9769 GE WF R-36 St. Louis 1963-64 Various 1983-84
PBS (Public Broadcasting) had an ad in US NEWS about the upcoming show which is scheduled for Feb 5th at 9PM. (check local listings)
The ad subtitle (if that's what it is called) stating.
Sleek... Modern... Fast...
They were the ultimate in travel
Why did they disappear?
Is it a rule that Conductor's must point to the car position boards
before they open the doors in a station?
Yes, silly and chidish, but a rule nonetheless.
Peace,
ANDEE
It is modeled after the "Japanese symbol of safety." Transport employees in Japan do it as a matter of course. It is an acknowledgement that they have determined it is safe to proceed. For example, on the Tokyo subway, the conductor will point AFTER closing the doors, but BEFORE giving indication to the operator to proceed. Then the operator will point AFTER receiving indication, but BEFORE releasing the brake.
Positively! *AND* the Nihonjin are required to point in both directions prior to crossing a track. And the requirement is a point in both extreme directions FIRST (forward and aft) while "out the window" before pointing straight ahead. It's a three point salute. "JR" would have nothing less.
It is humorous to watch though. Meanwhile, whilst saluting oxygen, there may be a nissei caught in the doors that they miss. Whoops. :)
In Japan, before crossing the tracks you must point each way.
Not so silly and childish Andee. There was a RASH of door opening on the wrong side of the train. Yah we can all say those C/R's are stupid or how can you even think of doing that. This rule is simple and quick fix.
I feel though that after a point the C/R is going through the motions. I've seen some flick a finger in the general direction of the board.
I had a friend C/R on the 7 that "they" ran a test on. Pulled in and he was about to point (this is his words) but noticed no board. Just when he was about to go on the PA and ask the T/O if he was at the marker a TSS came up and said "Good Job, this was a test you can open up now". Seems the TSS jumped the gun and would have caught my friend not following the rules for missing the marker board.
He is no longer a C/R didn't like it the job and left.
That's what the TSS was there for. It was his/her job to catch a c/r breaking the rule.
What had the TSS done? removed the board?
BTW in it's original Japanese incarnation (which I was aware of) this works. But the way nyct has watered it down it becomes another meaninglesss rule, IMO.
Peace,
ANDEE
Yah they removed the board.
I'm not so sure I agree with this practice. Removing the conductor's indication board sets the stage for disaster to occur. Passengers become potentially endangered.
Leave the boards alone and just have the TSS stand by checking to see if conductors are pointing at them.
This is a typical example of American Management by Mantra
techniques. Problem: your conductors are doing something
bone-headed (opening doors into the abyss). Solution: adopt
one small ritual from an entire system of safety consciousness.
Result: boneheads continue to open on the wrong side, but point
first. You could have told them that they have to say three
hail Mary's before opening, or that they had to hum 4 bars
of the Star Spangled Banner, or whatever. You can't just lift
one component of an entire system (which has a deep cultural
root as well) and expect it to work out of context.
Very well said!!
(Hail Mary's? hehe)
Yes, the Conductor must point at the Indication Board before putting the key into the Master Door Control to open the doors.
When did this practice begin??
About 3 or 4 years ago...
Peace,
ANDEE
At my favorite museum we have no "boards" so the customers point to their feet to get the operator to stop on their mark. Seriously, only museum employees do this.
Mr t__:^)
So I take it 8 and 10 car markers are out of the question too? :)
Well since last Autumn in New York we had a 3 Car Train with no 3 Car stop marker >G<.
Well the 6688 (work) crew has talked about marking spots were it is easy to change the pole around on her. It is hard to get the pole on the wire when going East when all of the pole is over the car body, yes you could backpole (push the pole) but then you couldn't let her RUN! Not that the experienced operators need any type of marking of where to change the pole.
Speaking of which I've seen a certain 1001 operator put the pole up "backwards" with out the asssitance of a 2nd crew person and a "come-along-pole" or whatever the offical name of that thing is.
Dang! Could you just imagine having to do that at 179th street? Yeah, I can imagine that pushing it is just asking for downed wires with a side order of spitzensparken. Almost begs for an actual pantograph, NH style (or original August Belmont "Steinway" style). I just can't picture a consist of three such radically different cars though I have to somehow find the time to get up there for that alone. What kinda speed can you get them up to on that run of yours up there? Really a shame that they can't be powered the way they were meant to be, but I do know that rules is rules. Must be a genuine pain to deal with tho'.
Become a memebr (if your not) go to the members only part of BERA.ORG web site and look at the monthly newsletter "The Tripper" online and see the pix of the HiV-LowV-R9 (not necessarly in that order) running as a train down the line (well shared air only, lead car each way and a 2nd operator in the middle car to follow through on the power) but it was fun!!
Heh. Musta been a dose of "bucky beaver" ... definitely gotta find some time to get down there for the next one. It's just quite a haul from the Albany area (and pricey on the route of the pointless arrow). And R-9's? Used to do them. Miss them. The IRT cars unfortunately I only did as a rider. Definitely gotta find me some time for that.
I'll inline that image below. And how fast did it go?
About as fast equipment today runs on the not-so-rapid transit
division.
Kewl! Now the question remains, is there anywhere on the run where we can go to the third notch and wind her up? Now THAT would be the teats. Still got the shunts? Wait ... my space suit is feeling ... err ... a bit tight. :)
Take it easy, there; if the brakes don't stop you in time, you'll go off the end of the line and "park" your rolling stock in the middle of a residential street. Heck, if we get an R-10 up there, it would take out a few houses, too! :)
Hey, we'll just tell them we're starting to reclaim the old ROW :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Guess I'll have to bring some of that five miles of abandoned rail by my house ... most of the ties are shot but the rail and braids are OK. We'll just tell them that the light rail commuter line they were promised is coming to town. :)
I've always liked the idea of a museum line being an actual live railroad. In the Kingston area, there is a short line called the Delaware and Ulster Railride and at one time, to help finance the line they had considered doing regular runs year round in hopes of enough commuters to pay for it. Needless to say, didn't work out for them, but given that New Haven has a bit more population than Pine Hills, it still ain't practical but yet a bit better of a fantasy. (grin)
Just checked out the "Beach" shot you described. Since there's no shunt rail or bumper, the question begs ... who ... whowhowhowho took one over the end? How often?
No wonder the gate cars have a steering wheel on the front porch. Heh.
That "steering wheel" as you call it really hurt when the train would lurch unexpectedly and you would get thrown against it!
I would imagine so ... I trust most folks can bring a gate car to a smooth stop though (aside from Luciano) ... I remember mention of the brakes being "complicated" in Fischler's "Uptown Downtown" book. What's the deal with those? Manual adjustment from the high side tank to the brake pipe before applying pipe to the plungers? Mention was made of it being some kind of dual braking controls that confused Luciano supposedly and was responsible to some degree for the Malbone wreck (not that speed on a curve had anything to do with it of course).
I've always been morbidly fascinated by what happened at Malbone.
Well, Kevin, come on up to Branford for 'Member's Day'. I'm going to attempt to 'pull a Luciano' with Gate car 1227....;-)
That really gets Karl unnerved!
Hey, has anyone 'popped a wheelie' with an R/T car before...:-)
BMTman
Don't forget Doug, you promised to get me a good picture of 1227 before you pulled a "Luciano" with it!
I really don't believe that you would hurt 1227, especially since it is the only operable "true" gate car anywhere!
Off Topic...Do you have the MTH R-42 D Train, and if so, what have you done to prevent roof distortion from the light bulb heat?
[I really don't believe that you would hurt 1227, especially since it is the only operable "true" gate car anywhere!]
You may have noticed that the 3/4 Ton Crew makes these kinds of remarks from time to time, BUT we wouldn't realy do anything to "hurt" the cars OR the track. BTW, Doug, Lou, Stef & I were part of the Gandy Dancers that changed a lot of ties on a Sunday. Anyhow, if we break it we can't play any more :-(
As trolley operators with a bunch of time under our belts we know the twists & turns of the line well enough to know where we can let the BU have all she'll take AND know when to take the power off so we don't throw anyone off the seats trying to stop at the end of track.
P.S. as a group we're still RT operators in training, so there's always a qualified operator by our side. That's part of the fun too, i.e. pushing the envelope until the "pilot" says OK, that's enough.
You know you have done it just right when the pilot remains seated the whole trip.
Mr t__:^)
You should see us fight on who will get to operate 6688 towards Short Beach, you can run a lot faster outbound then inbound (I think power related). We normaly split each round trip so we all get handle time.
I wonder just how high 1689's bull and pinion gears get up to on a straightaway run.:-)
As for the light bulb heat distortion, one thing I've done with all of my Flyer Alco diesels is replace the 14-volt bulbs with 18-volt bulbs. They're not as bright, but they're not as hot, either.
I've gotten R4's up to just a hair over 60 on CPW ... when the R1/9's ran local against R10's on the express, the only reason why we didn't leave the R10's in the dust was because we had to stop at the next station. But anyone doing an R1/9 race against an R10 would see the R10 lose ground to the R1/9 until you had to put some air into the pipe on the R1/9 ... those puppies could wail with the shunts in place and nothing else could beat them. 1.5 miles of track though just ain't enough to get one up to speed. :)
Got 7 miles of dead straight abandoned track here if anyone wants to string some wire and grab a flatbed ... but we will need the rail polishing car and some braid first.
You mean to tell me the R-1/9s could outrun the R-10s? Say it ain't so!:-) I mean, I used to see prewar E trains gain an edge on R-10 A trains on the southbound run between 34th and 23rd, but since the A kept right on going while the E slowed down, it wasn't much of a basis for comparison.
Let's see - 60 mph would be the equivalent of Bb above middle C (middle line on the treble staff), if not B, in terms of bull and pinion gear pitch. Where exactly did you achieve that sort of speed? The downhill run between 103rd and 110th northbound comes to mind.
Heh. It's so ... if the train had motors. And most of them did. The fastest run was 72nd to 59th though the timers would get you just north of there, 81st to 72 southbound was a goodie as well. Down 8th Avenue as well. The NB on the downgrade was timered so you had to put a bit of sponge on the wheels there but in general, no matter where you were, the original stock always outran the kids by 3-5 MPH at worst. And with the 32's and 4x's it wasn't a fair drop at all. *IF* you had motors.
But yeah, it's true ... and the early R's *loved* it when you'd let them gallop. :)
I know the R-1/9s could move. It's just that my express runs on them were so infrequent I didn't get to savor the sensation as much as I would have liked. There was a grand total of maybe 6 express on them for me, three apiece on the D (CPW) and the E (2 in Queens, one along Fulton St.). I never rode on a prewar A along CPW. The R-10s more than made up for that.
I don't know about the R-32s. They made it look so easy once they got going. You'd think they could outrun the oldtimers, given their lighter weight and all.
Back when I did it, the A was almost uniformly nothing but R10's - you didn't see them anywhere else on the railroad. AA and B were all 32's, CC and D were all R1/9's until there were enough 32's to start replacing the R1/9's for the D but the CC remained R1/9's until they all started to vanish. There were a good number of 42's and 44's for the D since it went to Brooklyn. That seemed to be the rule - if it ran to Brooklyn, it got new cars as quickly as they became available but if it only ran in the Bronx and Manhattan, the tankers did the runs.
The 32's ran pretty fast but we'd usually dust those with the R1/9's. Some of the consists were dogs with bad motors but when you had 9 cars or 10 with real motors, the oldies would wail on the newer cars once they got up to speed. The most noticeable things about the newer cars is that they accelerated much faster than the older cars but settled into a lower running speed. Once the R1-10's caught up with you, you'd eat their dust in the tunnels. But the 32's were much faster on the takeoff.
The way I remember, the R-32s took over base service on the AA, B, and D lines when the Chrystie St. connection opened. I can't really say they "took over" on the B, since that was a new route - unless you take the BB into consideration. I still find it strange that neither the R-32s nor the R-38s had B signs on their original roller curtains. They had B overlays pasted on top of the BB signs. I saw exactly one prewar B train, and it was deadheading past 34th St., bull and pinion gears moaning away at F# below middle C.
As for speed, I once saw a northbound D train of R-32s streak past 81st St., and it appeared to be going just as fast as any other express train of the good old days. You're right about their acceleration rate. I got off a D train at 59th St. one Saturday (after hearing the conductor announce "The next stop on this train will be 125th St."), and by the time the last car whipped past, it was flying.
Bottom line: I just didn't ride the oldtimers on express runs often enough. I envy Wayne (Mr. Slant R-40) in that regard. He says he's been on some R-6/7 F trains in Queens which he thought would become airborne.
IIRC another rule of thumb was to trot out the oldest equipment during rush hours, which was the main reason the oldtimers ran on the CC and E lines in the twilight of their careers (those which remained on the IND, anyway).
Yep, the prewar cars had plenty of pep after a running start. At the time I was split-shifting rush hours so I could always count on getting an armored car at both ends. And yes, where there were enough 32's in the middle of the day that's all you saw pretty much other than rush hours. And they could hold their own as far as the schedules went as long as an air valve didn't decide to go flaky on one of the door panels. If I had a nickel for every time I had to walk the cars at 5:15 somewhere. :)
I don't believe that is the case. Perhaps the R-10s were
simply in a poor state of maintenance and had a higher
rate of motor problems. According to the specs, an R-10
out-accelerates, out-brakes AND out-top-ends and R1-9.
[Got 7 miles of dead straight abandoned track here if anyone wants to string some wire and grab a flatbed ... but we will need the rail polishing car and some braid first.]
Hey, Sel K, if any of those ties need replacing, you can always give me, Lou, or Thurston a holler as we're experienced 'Gandy Dancers'...;-)
BMTman
Oh I'd say most of them need replacing. There was a 7MPH restriction on it last time a loco passed over it ... that's why CP abandoned it in favor of building a replacement that didn't cross CSX. What you see in the picture on the left is the section of track right where it used to cross the CSX mainline north of Selkirk. They cut the rails right where the camera is standing, bent them up into an X and then welded a shunt across them. If you take a look at the ties in the foreground, it's typical of the rest of the 7 miles behind D&H 7307 ... but it's as straight as can be.
And we COULD do a third rail here - there's a substation about 600 feet down the line on the left side with plenty of space to drop a rectifier box. They haven't torn any of it up yet after "tailing" the track so if someone has oodles of excess "dot com cash" burning a hole in their wallet, it would make a WONDERFUL mass transit museum facility where an R9 could gallop ... and level as all getout too.
Great picture!
Yeah, if/when I get the chance to head up there, I'll notifiy the "3/4 Ton Crew" about some serious back-breaking work upstate...
I notice that the ties are SCREAMING for replacements!
BMTman
Heh. They stopped screaming a few years ago. Now they're strangely silent, cold and smelling a bit funny. But it's a lovely line looking for something, anything to traverse it again. Not that there's much of anything on either end of it anymore. It begs for a third rail though.
Who exactly owns this r-o-w?
CPRail, former D&H. It's known as the New Scotland branch and runs from the Kenwood yards in Albany at the Hudson River through Delmar, New Scotland, Voorheesville and into Delanson. It was a two track line until about three years ago and they removed one track then. It's anybody's guess as to when the remaining track goes since there's property taxes on it now as long as the iron remains.
Don't worry Karl....I'm just kidding about "pulling a Luciano" with 1227. She's too fine a lady to "manhandle" her...;-)
Yes, I have the MTH R-42's in D Train markings. How do I prevent roof distortion from the light bulb heat? Simple, I have the two-car add ons and they are currently static display models on my Rapid Transit bookself :-). Hopefully, in the near future, I will get the R-21's, 32's and whatever else MTH releases in regard to NYCT equipment and create an O gauge layout. The bulk of my model railroad stuff is in HO and I used to have a small layout of sorts.
BMTman
Heh. And my motivation to get killed in a wrecked wooden el car would be? (grin) I'm hoping to get the time together IN time to make it on down. But really ... is there some special technique that caused the description of the braking arrangement to be "complex?" Two handles? That's the impression I have from the book having never been in the "cab" of a gate car. While I had ridden on one or two when I was real small on the Myrtle, by the time I became aware of the presence of cabs on subway cars, the Q's had already replaced them.
Since the Q's were former gate cars, wouldn't the braking be the same?
I would have expected so but Fischler's book and other comments seem to suggest that the BU cars involved in the Malbone wreck were somehow "difficult to control" for reasons I don't know ... that was why my question as to whether there were two brake handles involved or just a strange design that required more effort and cognitive capabilities than a standard brake handle ... Big Ed might know the answer when we see him next ...
Ed actually operated "Q's" on the Myrt, so he should know if anybody would.
Another thought might be the fact that the second and third cars of the Malbone train were blind trailers, as Jeff H calls them. IIRC the trailers had hand brakes, but I don't know for sure if they had air brakes.
I'm hoping Ed will know. That question has me most curious. The accounts of the ride along the Fulton El and into the turnoff at Franklin prior to the wreck repeatedly mentioned that Luciano was having all sorts of difficulty properly operating the "complex braking system" and I'm just trying to get a feel of what would cause the "complexity" ... I can understand someone having difficulty with a standard handle if they pull it all the way back out of lapping and into the netherworld just before BIE resulting in a rough ride but in Fischler's book (which has a number of items in it that seemingly defy logic to anyone who has ever actually operated trains) there was this indication that there was two handles involved in operating the brakes and a suggestion that perhaps one hung from the ceiling and the other one on a pedestal or something truly strange about the braking system on those gate cars.
Since the museum has one, if there was something so truly bizarre about it, I would expect someone familiar with them might have an answer to what was so incredibly complicated that Luciano kept overshooting and undershooting the platforms according to the reports. Even dead trailers with no cylinders at all shouldn't have been that big a deal if you have a feel for your train. At least on level el ... I can understand on a downgrade, you'd have to have more of a clue with packed cars. But it's this "complex dual braking" thing that Fischler mentioned that still sticks in the back of my mind as a big "huh?" since I've never encountered anything like that outside of diesels where you'll have a separate dynamic brake handle and an air brake handle near each other on the stand. But I don't believe they had anything like that back in the gate car days. Or did they?
Well it kind of like operating a elevator & a trolley, i.e. Controller is like a elevator & brake handle like a trolley ... brakes come on slow, so you have understand that. She's real easy to operate once you know where to put your finger :-) i.e. to prevent the Controler position from going into emergancy.
Mr t__:^)
Let me clear something up. Fischler is a good writer and
Uptown Downtown is enjoyable, but the technical details are
between muddy and just plain incorrect. Read Cudahy's
Malbone Street Wreck for a better account.
There is nothing at all complicated about the brakes on BU
cars (or Q cars, which are the same). It is a standard
"automatic" air brake, no electric assist. As such, sometimes
an appointment is required to stop. I would say BUs are harder
to brake than AMUE (e.g. R9, Lo-V) but easier than a freight train.
THANK YOU! Yeah, I got the impression from Fischler's book (a wonderful read, but irritating in what I knew to be "not quite right" coming up again and again) that there were two handles from the way he described the gate cars and having never been in the cab of one, had no way of knowing "true or BS" as far as that went. Standard vintage Westinghouse it sounds like - are they all air or is it electric and air like AMUE's? If so, it's probably nothing more than knowing when to apply. If this is the case then, Luciano definitely should have had more handle time before hauling geese - which is pretty much the only thing everybody seems to agree on.
As much as 6688 seems like a nice lady and all, she's still a bit too recent a vintage for me to get the personal hots for. Sorta like going out with a teenybopper for someone of my own advanced decrepidation. :)
There are two handles: the controller and the brake :)
No electric. Schedule AML braking with quick-action and
graduated release.
Read Cudahy's book. It dispels a lot of myths that have been
circulated about the wreck. Mostly, it shows that Luciano was
a competent motorman who lacked road experience, was distracted
by personal matters, and, not being a regular road guy, was
unaware of that new S-curve at the bottom of the hill.
Will definitely grab a copy of that book. That's what I had wanted to know - obviously a controller - I don't go for the idea of the gladstick (since it's forward and back only without side to side, can't quite call it a joystick) with brake and motor on the same handle - the impression I got was that there were two brake handles though I just couldn't see an MU built to operate that way. That's what threw me. And not knowing the territory - any of us who ran trains have been there at least once ... but that answers my main question - how many brake handles on those puppies and what was it that made it so "complex" ... answer, NOTHING. That suffices. :)
Before investing in a copy of that book I would suggest you read the reviews here. Not all of us share Jeff's enthusiasm for the book.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
6688 can easily get up to the third notch. Fortunately, it has the brakes to slow up before the end of the line. There was only one trip where there was a question of whether the car would stop, but it did by a few inches. So, come up and hang on.
Yes, I can vouch for that. Having piloted 6688 under the excellent guidance of Mr. Shavell at the last AUTUMN IN NY festival at Branford.
Peace,
ANDEE
I can also vouch for Mr. Shavell and when he operates 6688, he thinks he is on the through express. For those vistors that have never been on the Lex, Mr. Shavell gives a great experience (you can't do that with no trolley car!).
I'd expect 6688 to be able to - I was actually wondering about 1689. I ran those while with NYCTA and if the motors are there, we're talking serious geese haulage if it's still got the stones. Those things could beat an R-10 if they were working. R9's and LoV's are more my speed. :)
We have to be a little more consertive with the R-9 because of her size & weight. In addition she normally gets paired up with one of the other cars. When car "G" comes back from the TA Museum she'll team up with the BU 1227 ... our RT customers like multi section trains & we try to accomidate them, i.e. the 3 car train that Jeff & company was able to pull off last Fall.
Mr t__:^)
That was pretty much what I had been expecting. 1.5 miles doesn't let you do very much with them (please, no insults intended here) because by the time she's up to speed, she's off the rails at the other end. :)
Sometimes you don't need a lot of speed to realy get a thrill, e.g.
last Summer at Sea Shore when we took turns "assuming the position" on their "A train". Then riding in the two car set ... it was too bad we had a mechanical problem which ment we had to break them apart just outside of the yard limit.
Mr t__:^)
I'd be plenty thrilled just pulling down the bench, having a seat and charging the puppy ... but ya gotta admit, wrapping it and leaving it there for a while until it's up to speed WOULD be a thrill if ya could have it. Those babies could wail ...
1689, when running by itself, can move very well. However, while the line is a total of a mile and a half, the RT cars do not utilize the entire length of the line. We lose about 1000 feet, because the high level platform is in our yard area. By the time we get beyond the yard limit, where we can accelerate, the straightaway runs for approximately ½ mile (Jeff H can give you an exact measurement). However, 6688 has far superior braking. Therefore, we can take it further into the straightaway before we have to begin braking. So, it can attain a higher speed, almost to the full top end when the power is good.
In answer to the question about flat spots: When the car arrived, the trucks were from an R-17 and an R-22. After a couple of years, we did notice flat spots on the R-17 truck. In December of 1992, we had a major flood. As luck would have it, the R-17 truck was the one saturated with salt water in the motors. I worked for most of the summer of 1993 to clean and paint a spare truck, and we placed this under the car. This truck was from an R-15. It has one Westinghouse motor, and one GE motor. The truck we removed also had mixed motors. At the present time, there are no flats.
It's a pity in a way that there isn't enough land or money to acquire land and track it. Granted we should be very grateful to even have that much. But 1689 would be a thrill and a half if it could get up to the speeds they ran at in service just for the thrill of the ride for anyone who never did them when they were on the system. I grew up in the Bronx and thus the IRT was the local railroad but the IND cars made the redbirds and the lines themselves seem dinky by comparison.
[However, 6688 has far superior braking. Therefore, we can take it further into the straightaway before we have to begin braking. So, it can attain a higher speed, almost to the full top end when the power is good.]
Good point Lou. Same reason we can't get 1227 (our prized Gate Car) up to serious speeds -- she does have great acceleration -- because of her lack of quality braking.
BMTman
So the motors match the fans we found installed (GE/Westinghouse) >G
One of the great things that this site has done for me is make me aware of a lot of mass transit related Web sites. I have almost 50 Bookmarked.
The most recent I found should be valuable to the BMTman, heypaul & SubBus Mike ... Bay Ridge Model RxR Club many shots of our favorite cars, e.g. D Types, Standards, Lo-Vs ... enjoy
Mr t__:^)
Opps lets try that again
Bay Ridge Model RxR Club
Mr t__:-(
We all know that misery loves company. Well, if idiocy loves company, the anencephalics on the New York City Council will be positively estatic! Today's Slimes reports that IKEA has decided to scrap its plans for a new store in New Rochelle on account of heavy "community opposition." Congratuations, Westchester County residents, you have just proved your schmuck-iness.
IKEA stores are a sight to be seen. They attract huge levels of business, way beyond what you'll see anywhere else, generating hundreds of jobs and massive tax revenues. Shopping at one is quite an experience, almost as much entertainment as anything else.
IKEA stores provide quite an economic boost to the areas in which they are located. And if there's any place in need of an economic - and moral - boost, it's Westchester. JC Penney's recently announced that it's closing the store at the Galleria Mall in White Plains. While the company is closing about 75 stores throughout the country, many of them are tiny outlets in small towns. At 218,000 square feet, the Galleria store is by a considerable margin the largest one being closed. In another blow to the county's fortunes, Texaco announced that it will close its headquarters in Harrison if the merger with Chevron goes through, eliminating over 1,000 well-paid jobs and dumping 750,000 square feet of office space on a market that's long been struggling with a high vacancy rate.
Going beyond these recent events, Westchester shows other symptoms of decline. Retail sales throughout the county - which is "under-stored" to begin with - have suffered since the Palisades Mall opened across the Tappan Zee Bridge in Rockland County. The GM plant in Tarrytown that closed a few years ago has been demolished and replaced with a park - needless to say, the handful of maintenance jobs at the park are virtually nothing compared to the thousands of high-paid UAW jobs at the auto plant. Urban decay is evident in some parts of the county, most notably Yonkers, Mount Vernon and Peekskill.
All in all, an IKEA store would have provided a nice lift for a troubled county. But don't look for one anytime soon, thanks to a bunch of narrow-minded schmucks.
Peter,
The suburbanites you don't consider "schmucks" were responsible for encouraging over-building and suburban sprawl-style development without any consideration for transportation, water, streets and other infrastructure. Some of this obviously was not sustainable in the long run. A slower, more sustainable growth strategy would have been better, instead of the chaos that ensued as people fooolishly tried to abandon the city, thinking it irrelevant, and now Westchester is paying for its mistakes.
I have a good deal of sympathy for the average joe or josephine who lost his or her job at the auto plant. But economic expansion and contraction is a fact of life. A healthy city core with a less industrialized suburb offers a better model for sustained employment and a good quality of life, and hopefully this is where Westchester is headed. No pain, no gain.
Yeah, but IKEA stores look like friggin' giant boxes. If they did something estetically pleasing about their exteriors maybe there would be less opposition to their expansion.
BMTman
Urban revival? Sure. Let's tear down *your* home, give you 10,000 dollars and tell *you* to go get lost, so we can build an Ikea there. Oh wait, you've lived there all your life, don't want to move, and can't find a new home in the area for 10 grand? Tough shit, we need urban revival. Get lost.
That's what the fight was about. Government tearing down homes so a private company could move in to that location.
Of course, maybe if they'd actually pay the real value of the property, as opposed to less than 1/3 it's value, people wouldn't be so annoyed.
In any case, if Westchester is in such desperate need of department stores and malls, why is the Penny's closeing?
Urban revival? Sure. Let's tear down *your* home, give you 10,000 dollars and tell *you* to go get lost, so we can build an Ikea there. Oh wait, you've lived there all your life, don't want to move, and can't find a new home in the area for 10 grand? Tough shit, we need urban revival. Get lost.
That's what the fight was about. Government tearing down homes so a private company could move in to that location.
Of course, maybe if they'd actually pay the real value of the property, as opposed to less than 1/3 it's value, people wouldn't be
so annoyed.
I suspect you'll have a hard time substantiating the 1/3 figure. As a general rule, government agencies tend to pay slightly above fair market value when condemnimg private property for public purposes, finding that cheaper in the long run than spending prolonged periods haggling about prices. It's unlikely that governments would offer less when condemning property for a private company's benefit; in fact, they might tend to be more generous, as time pressures may be greater.
My guess is that the people whose property was involved had inflated notions of what their property was worth. Westchester's troubled economy can't be good for property values.
In any case, if Westchester is in such desperate need of department stores and malls, why is the Penny's closeing?
Competition from the Palisades Mall. In addition, while I haven't been there in a few years, it was my impression that the Galleria Mall was a bit run-down. And don't forget that Penney's has been going through some tough times nationwide.
"In any case, if Westchester is in such desperate need of department stores and malls, why is the Penny's closeing?
Competition from the Palisades Mall. In addition, while I haven't been there in a few years, it was my impression that the Galleria Mall was a bit run-down. And don't forget that Penney's has been going through some tough times nationwide."
You've just put your finger on one of the symptoms of classic suburban sprawl - malls which cannibalize each other because there was not necessarily long-lasting value in building either one.
As to your belief that developers always pay fair maret value for condemned property, well, don't you think that's a little naive? Esp. in places like Westchester, where some officials can be bought and paid for...
Competition from the Palisades Mall. In addition, while I haven't been there in a few years, it was my impression that the Galleria Mall was a bit run-down. And don't forget that Penney's has been going through some tough times nationwide."
You've just put your finger on one of the symptoms of classic suburban sprawl - malls which cannibalize each other because there was not necessarily long-lasting value in building either one.
The Galleria used to be the big-time mall in the area, back when the White Plains Mall was the run-down mall. I believe the White Plains Mall closed (what's there now?), and then the discount stores at the Westchester Pavilion (I think) opened, as well as the new upscale mall called The Westchester(*). I guess that leaves the Galleria in a shaky niche with a crowd somewhat less affluent than The Westchester.
(* Not to be confused with The Westchester Mall, which was a struggling mall way up by the Putnam County border, now expanded, revived, and called Cortlandt Town Center.)
All shopping centers and malls in Westchester compete against malls outside Westchester that are larger/better, like Stamford Town Center, Danbury Fair, and the new Palisades, as well as Manhattan itself.
The Galleria used to be the big-time mall in the area, back when the White Plains Mall was the run-down mall. I believe the White Plains Mall closed (what's there now?), and then the discount stores at the Westchester Pavilion (I think) opened, as well as the new upscale mall called The Westchester(*). I guess that leaves the Galleria in a shaky niche with a crowd somewhat less affluent than The Westchester.
Another thing about the Galleria is that it isn't a true suburban-style mall with free parking lots. It has a paid parking garage and, if I recall correctly, is on several levels as opposed to the one or two levels of the suburban mall. County residents who want the suburban mall experience can make the relatively quick trip to the Palisades Mall. Those who are happy with the urban mall experience can go to The Westchester. Doesn't leave the Galleria with much of a raison d'etre.
Paid Parking That's what killed Galleria. Here in Syracuse we have the Carousel Center, It's developer, Robert Congel recently CONvinced the county legislature to give his mall an additional 30 year PILOT agreement in return for an UNENFORCEABLE promise to quadruple the size of the current mall Increased sales tax would supposedly result in a "profit" to local government. OK, S*U*C*K*E*R*S, now Syracuse area residents will get no sales tax relief, while surrounding counties will ride the wave of sales tax reduction. This will have the effect of destroying Syracuse's retail economy and Congel will only build a small "Phase 1" expansion which is required by the PILOT, then sell the mall and move his family out of town AND WE"RE SCREWED Never trust a businessman! oh, yes the FOOLS who voted for this thing are TOAST next election day, but that's little comfort to our area which will never recover from the QUARTER BILLION DOLLAR GIFT CONGEL GOT.
(OK, S*U*C*K*E*R*S, now Syracuse area residents will get no sales tax relief, while surrounding counties will ride the wave of sales tax reduction.)
When it comes to county taxes, predators, not suckers, is more like it. New York, like a handful of other Northeastern states and unlike virtually any others, shifts a large part of the cost of social services and Medicaid to the local level. The result is below average state taxes, but sky high local taxes, since the state legislature has no incentive to restrain spending since they foot only one-quarter of the bill. The setup was designed to destroy NYC, when it had all the poor and all the social service bills. Those who fleeced the city and fled to the suburbs didn't want to support those they left behind.
Well guess what! Most of that social service money goes not to the poor but to the formerly middle-class elderly, who give their money ot their kids and then declare themselves poor to qualify for a wide range of benefits -- wider, and far more costly, than anyplace else in the U.S. And the suburbs and certain upstate counties such as Onondaga are aging very rapidly. Up in Onondaga County, $5 of every $1,000 everyone earns is collected in local taxes for aid TO New York State -- a bargain compared with NYC's $13, but a burden nonetheless. Outside NY State, local to state aid is virtually non-existent.
The solution -- COSTAR, with the state reimbursing residents for county taxes that the state itself caused to be collected, but with NYC getting back a lot less than it gis forced to put in (just NYC's luck, it doesn't have a county, but we'll give it a little something if it doesn't complain) and the elderly (who are getting the benefits which cost 85 percent more in NY than the national average) not having to pay at all. Just like STAR, which NYC gets 27 percent of after paying 40 percent of state taxes in lieu of getting its pro-rata share of school aid. Arrrgh!
Well, Larry, we, the taxpayers will get our wallets sucked by this bad deal while our neighboring counties will get the clothing exemption on sales tax. BTW, aren't the bouroughs considered counties?
BTW, aren't the bouroughs considered counties?
Judicial only.
Thanks,Pork
Up here in Mass. counties are always Judicial only. We got rid of county government a few years ago after they started going bankrupt. There is still a county road line in state budget even though we have 0 miles of county roads.
(Up here in Mass. counties are always Judicial only. We got rid of county government a few years ago after they started going bankrupt. There is still a county road line in state budget even though we
have 0 miles of county roads.)
I guess that's the second New England state with no counties, after Connecticut. Here in New York it's gone the other way: outside NYC (which has a combined city-county-school district-etc) government, counties have been taking on more local government jobs for better or (Nassau) worse.
(Well, Larry, we, the taxpayers will get our wallets sucked by this bad deal while our neighboring counties will get the clothing exemption on sales tax. BTW, aren't the bouroughs considered counties? )
They are counties, but no longer have any governmental functions.
As for Onondagas shopping center deal, Upstate politicians, like Downstate politicians, ignore the fact that NEW businesses are the key to regional economic success. They subsidize large, influential existing corporations while taxing and regulating new businesses to death. Heck, the City and State are each kicking in hundreds of millions for a new NY Stock Exchange, just as electronic trading makes trading floors obsolete. Meanwhile, if you open your own new business in NYC you have to pay NOT one but TWO local income taxes.
Somehow, enough people have opened new businesses in NYC despite the burdens for it to survive. Upstate, on the other hand, continues to experience the same losses of older firms everyone does -- Xerox may bite the dust now -- with no entreprenuers to take their place. I can see why Syracuse cut that deal -- it is desperate. The Upstate cities are ceasing to be cities in any real sense of the word, and it's a damn shame. The Vampire State deserves lots of the blame. They ain't killed us yet, but they are trying.
As for Onondagas shopping center deal, Upstate politicians, like Downstate politicians, ignore the fact that NEW businesses are the key to regional economic success. They subsidize large, influential
existing corporations while taxing and regulating new businesses to death. Heck, the City and State are each kicking in hundreds of millions for a new NY Stock Exchange, just as electronic trading
makes trading floors obsolete. Meanwhile, if you open your own new business in NYC you have to pay NOT one but TWO local income taxes.
It's much easier for existing businesses to play the blackmail card. When the CEO of a company that's been around for decades says, in effect, Give me huge tax breaks or I'll take my ball and go play in someone else's yard, there's an immediate threat. People take notice and the politicians are quick to act. Compare that to a company that's announced its intention to open a new facility in whatever state makes the best offer. There's much less of a sense of urgency, because (1) if your state loses, you'll be no worse off than before (not the case if you lose an existing company, of course), and (2) there's so much competition that you'll probably lose in any event.
(Compare that to a company that's announced its intention to open a new facility in whatever state makes the best offer. There's much less of a sense of urgency.)
Then compare that with a new company altogether. The fact is, that one out of every eight business establishments closes or moves out (beyond a county border) every eight years, in good and bad years, in growing and declining industies, in growing and declining areas. It's pretty consistent. The question is, how many new businesses do you attract? That depends on the general tax rate, and the quality of services. NY politicians, however, prefer special deals.
Malls around the country are being hurt by the "big box" stores -- Wal-Mart, Home Depot, Toys R' Us, Barnes and Nobel, etc. They're all stand-alone stores, but with big parking lots and usually, lower prices and a bigger selection than what nall stores can offer.
Even the box store concept has gone a little too far -- Builder's Square went under a couple of years ago, and Office Max is retrenching right now. But unless your mall is in an upscale suburb and can afford to have stores catering to customers who can both afford to shop there and/or are too snobbish to ever get caught in a mere box store, you are seeing customers sucked away to the discount places that in many cases are only a few blocks away from the malls they're competing against.
Malls around the country are being hurt by the "big box" stores -- Wal-Mart, Home Depot, Toys R'Us, Barnes and Noble, etc. They're all stand-alone stores, but with big parking lots and usually, lower prices and a bigger selection than what mall stores can offer.
Big-box stores indeed give malls strong competition in the race for shoppers' money. Even so, if a mall owner is reaching for the Maalox at 3 am, he's probably not worrying about Wally World or Home Depot. No, it's JC Penney's that's giving him a tummy ache. As has been reported in the financial press, Penney's is in fairly rough financial shape. Among other things, they've been hit hard by competition from Kohl's (another one of the big-box stores, of course). The recently announced closure of about 75 stores, including the one in the White Plains Galleria, almost certainly is just the tip of the iceberg. If Penney's ends up going out of business entirely, which is by no means a certainty but is not beyond the realm of possibility, a lot of malls are going to be left with big vacant spaces - Penneys is an anchor in more malls than any other chain, with Sears a quite distant second. With no other department store chains in a major expansion mode, filling the gaps left by Penney's departure, if indeed that comes to pass, would be very difficult.
It's stores like Penney's, Sears and some of the other regional mall-anchoring department stores that have been hit the hardest by the invasion of the box stores, and of course GE just threw in the towel on Montgomery Ward's, but it's past owners were too stupid to jump into the mall trend in the first place and ended up with too many "Big Box" locations in the wrong areas around the U.S.
Stores like Macy's, Nordstrom's and Neiman Marcus around the country still project an upscale enough image, and are able to choose their mall locations selectively enough, to have avoided the problems that Penney's and Ward's have suffered at the hands of Wal-Mart and the other big box retailers.
Yes, but some of this is just stupid mngt. of the store ... take Woolworth, they would still be around today if only they added a drug department ... can you say CVS. Or Caldor, mngt wasn't paying attention to the business, so they are gone now.
BTW, what does this have to do with Mass Transit ?
Mr t__:^)
Mass Transit is tied to urban planning. Therefore urban planning is on topic.
I'll second you on that, Pork. The two are closely linked. Right on!
Stores like Macy's, Nordstrom's and Neiman Marcus around the country still project an upscale enough image, and are able to choose their mall locations selectively enough, to have avoided the problems that Penney's and Ward's have suffered at the hands of Wal-Mart and the other big box retailers.
Upscale or not, Nordstrom's recently went through some rough financial times, severe enough so that it had to curtail expansion plans. As far as I know, the problems were related to poor management rather than competition or defects in the basic business plan. New management is now in place and the recent financial result have been better.
Nordstroms seems to be looking alot better lately.
Arkansas-based Dillard's is going through the same thing right now. They're more upscale than Sears or Penneys, but don't have the same cache that Nieman's or even Macy's does in the larger cities of their target markets in the south and southwest.
Changes should keep them going, since they're not in as much danger from the box stores as Sears of Penneys, but they've curtailed their more ambitious expansion plans for now and are probably going to be more concerned about getting the ledgers back in order for at least the next year or so.
Stores like Macy's, Nordstrom's and Neiman Marcus around the country still project an upscale enough image, and are able to choose their mall locations selectively enough, to have avoided the problems that Penney's and Ward's have suffered at the hands of Wal-Mart and the other big box retailers.
Upscale or not, Nordstrom's recently went through some rough financial times, severe enough so that it had to curtail expansion plans (though no store closures were contemplated). As far as I know, the problems were related to poor management rather than competition or defects in the basic business plan. New management is now in place and the recent financial result have been better.
JCPenney don't seem to do that well. And the products I have bought from there have been of poor quality. It is not if but when Penneys goes out of business. And this if gonna really hurt malls that do poorly already. On LI, that's Broadway Mall and Sunrise Mall that will particularly hurt by the vacant dept. store.
Roosevelt Field, Smith Haven, and South Shore Mall also have JC Penney, but they have a large enough compliment of stores to avoid being hurt too much.
I think that Broadway Mall in Hicksville is destined to close. JCPenney and Stern's are very weak anchors. I think Broadway Mall will be demolished and replaced by a strip mall to surround the Movie theater and Ikea.
A similar small mall, the Bay Shore Mall, which had Stern's and Sears as anchors, closed and was replaced by big box retailers.
JCPenney don't seem to do that well. And the products I have bought from there have been of poor quality.
They may not be doing well, but I've never had quality problems with the clothing I purchase there - some is store brand, but they've also got the best price on Levi's jeans (their regular price is cheaper than Sears' sale price) and a number of other name-brand items. We have also purchased almost all of our linens there - again, better quality than what Macy's or Stern's has to offer at a lower price.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
It is not if but when Penneys goes out of business.
It seems to be the consensus opinion in the financial press that Penney's will go through some further retrenchment but probably will manage to survive in somewhat diminished form. Penney's operates some very small stores - some less than 20K square feet - in smaller towns mostly in the South and Midwest. A number of these stores were on the recent hit list, and no doubt most and possibly all of the remainder will follow. With some skillful management, the mall stores might be able to make it. Remember that customer preferences change very rapidly. Twenty years ago malls were all the rage. Then big-box superstores became trendy and malls were a bit passe. It's not impossible that the pendulum might swing back toward malls, and Penney's would benefit.
I think that Broadway Mall in Hicksville is destined to close. JCPenney and Stern's are very weak anchors. I think Broadway Mall will be demolished and replaced by a strip mall to surround the Movie theater and Ikea.
You may be right, and in fact that probably would be the best solution. Speaking of Stern's, some people are saying that its days may be numbered. There is too little to differentiate Stern's from Macy's for Federated (their owner) to keep running it as a separate chain. Most likely, some Stern's stores would close, while others would be rebranded as Macy's.
I think Broadway Mall will be demolished and replaced by a strip mall to surround the Movie theater and Ikea.
They're doing something similar to that with the Seaview Square Mall in Ocean Twp., just south of Eatontown, New Jersey. Interestingly enough, MM started out as a strip mall and was enclosed back in the '70s; major anchors are Macy's, Stern's (formerly A&S), JCPenney, and Lord & Taylor, plus a Sony multiplex and The Wiz. Seaview Square was built as a mall at about the same time but - perhaps because it was close to Asbury Park and all its problems, and somewhat farther away from Fort Monmouth - it never really caught on. JCP was an anchor store there for years, as well as Stern's and Sears; at the end only Sears was still open, plus a Value City in the old JCP location. Sears and VC are remaining open while the rest of the mall is demolished; a Target (which will probably put VC out of business) and a Lowe's will be built as separate structures on the premises. There had also been a movie theatre and a grocery store on outlying parcels but those have been closed for at least five years. The theatre will be demolished; rumor has it that a chain drugstore (possibly a PharMor) is interested in the former grocery building.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I do think the owners will eventually do something like that to Broadway Mall. They will probably get big box stores, like Target, Costco, and Barnes and Noble. I think the Broadway mall owners will find that they will make a bigger profit that way. And especially if the Mall at Oyster Bay is built in nearby Syosset, the Broadway Mall as it is will not remain profitable to remain open as it is.
(Speaking of Stern's, some people are saying that its days may be numbered. There is too little to differentiate Stern's from Macy's for Federated (their owner) to keep running it as a separate chain. Most likely, some Stern's stores would close, while others would be rebranded as Macy's.)
Sterns is an awful store: KMART merchandise at Macy's prices. Let's face it, the market for department stores is getting smaller all the time, as stores specializing on one type of good pick off one item after another and stuff in general gets too cheap to sell in something other than a warehouse. In the 1970s, shopping was a form of recreation for bored housewives. Now everyone is busier, and/or has more fun things to do.
The only model is a lot of consumables (food, paper towels) and semi-non-durables (ie. underwear) sold cheap (KMART, WALMART, TARGET, Warehouse Clubs); or lots of services and snob appeal. The only time I ever hear of shopping at a Department store is for presents. It's a good place to figure out what to buy someone else; when you know what YOU want, you go to a store tha sells it, not a store that sells everything.
The intellegent endgame is to either provide for weekly food shopping with a few convenience items thrown in, to drift somewhat upscale, but not too upscale, with less debt, and try to be the last one standing. Any department store thinking expansion is doomed.
The only time I ever hear of shopping at a Department store is for presents. It's a good place to figure out what to buy someone else; when you know what YOU want, you go to a store tha sells it, not a store that sells everything.
Pretty much true, with some exceptions. Department stores do have an advantage for clothes shopping, as the stuff sold in places like Target and even Kohl's isn't quite of the same quality. I suspect that this "quality gap" is more true with women's clothing than with men's. And for any type of hardware or appliances, Sears is the best.
>>>It is not if but when Penneys goes out of business. <<<
That statement is way off base. Penneys recently got a new CEO in the form of one Allan Questrom. He saved Federated Department Stores and Barneys and will do the same for Penneys. He is a brilliant retailer whom I have a great deal of respect for.
Peace,
ANDEE
Well I guess if this new CEO can fix JCPenney's image, and carry more name brands like Macy's than the company can be saved.
Why do you keeping posting threads that have nothing to do with subways or railroads?
We're talking about shopping here, and actually stores and how people shop is an urban planning topic.
I'm not the only one here who posts O/T threads. Besides, I did not start this thread.
John, Don't be defensive with this guy
Dave, Cool it this board is not your personal club unless your last name is Pirmann and if it is then I apologize.
I always liked the quality of Penney's mens' Clothing but as for Jewelry, they aren't up to par. I like Reed's Jewelers (a regional chain that may not be in N.Y.C.)
"As to your belief that developers always pay fair maret value for condemned property, well, don't you think that's a little naive? Esp. in places like Westchester, where some officials can be bought and paid for..."
It's not so naive when you realize that, in every state, landowners have the right to have the valuation of their property decided by a trial. (Although it seems New York State has completely eliminated valuation by jury, while by comparison most states specifically state that landowners have the right to a jury valuation.) With that right in the background, there's a strong incentive to pay full value to avoid going to court and watch a round or two of dueling appraisers.
As to your belief that developers always pay fair maret value for condemned property, well, don't you think that's a little naive? Esp. in places like Westchester, where some officials can be bought and paid for..."
It's not so naive when you realize that, in every state, landowners have the right to have the valuation of their property decided by a trial. (Although it seems New York State has completely eliminated valuation by jury, while by comparison most states specifically state that landowners have the right to a jury valuation.) With that right in the background, there's a strong incentive to pay full value to avoid going to court and watch a round or two of dueling appraisers.
I worked for a major mortgage lender in Connecticut during the middle and late 1980's. Not infrequently, we received notice of government condemnation actions involving our borrowers. Very, very rarely did any of them appeal for higher valuations. Almost all of them were quite pleased with the government offers, and took the money and ran.
They get their money off the top THEY DON'T GIVE A SHIT ABOUT THE individual homeowner , besides they are usually in cahoots with the developer, I mean, we're talking about Bankers, here. Furthermore who do you think finances these malls In business, STP is the racer's edge SCREW THE (LITTLE)PEOPLE.
Don't dig Westchester's grave yet. It's taxes are a lot lower than Nassau or Suffolk, and its services are just as good (except in the aforementioned cities). It can afford to be snobby about new businesses that employ unemployed low wage workers, because it doesn't have any. NYC has plenty.
I doubt that IKEA would consider a Bronx location, for similar snobby reasons.
Don't dig Westchester's grave yet. It's taxes are a lot lower than Nassau or Suffolk, and its services are just as good (except in the aforementioned cities). It can afford to be snobby about new businesses that employ unemployed low wage workers, because it doesn't have any. NYC has plenty.
Westchester's taxes are a lot lower than Nassau's or Suffolk's. Ten percent, maybe, but that's about it. And it definitely isn't true that Westchester has no "unemployed low wage workers." Just in the lower part of the county, you'll find plenty of them in Yonkers, Mt. Vernon, New Rochelle, Port Chester, and probably some other towns. Besides, IKEA is sort of like Starbucks when it comes to jobs - the pay may not be terrific, but it's a trendy place for young, Gen-X types.
I doubt that IKEA would consider a Bronx location, for similar snobby reasons.
I don't believe that any of IKEA's stores, not that there are a lot of them, are in urban areas. They're strictly suburban.
I don't believe that any of IKEA's stores, not that there are a lot of them, are in urban areas. They're strictly suburban.
Elizabeth, NJ isn't all that Suburban. They'll build where there's room, like an industrial area, and they can build in the Bronx. Cheap land, great highway access. Bronx probably has the most highways of any other borough (with Brooklyn being the loser).
Don't dig Westchester's grave yet. It's taxes are a lot lower than Nassau or Suffolk, and its services are just as good (except in the aforementioned cities). It can afford to be snobby about new businesses that employ unemployed low wage workers, because it doesn't have any. NYC has plenty.
Westchester's taxes aren't a lot lower than Nassau's or Suffolk's. Ten percent, maybe, but that's about it. And it definitely isn't true that Westchester has no "unemployed low wage workers." Just in the lower part of the county, you'll find plenty of them in Yonkers, Mt. Vernon, New Rochelle, Port Chester, and probably some other towns. Besides, IKEA is sort of like Starbucks when it comes to jobs - the pay may not be terrific, but it's a trendy place for young, Gen-X types.
I doubt that IKEA would consider a Bronx location, for similar snobby reasons.
I don't believe that any of IKEA's stores, not that there are a lot of them, are in urban areas. They're strictly suburban.
Ikea's in the heart of Burbank out in Los Angeles, which is sort of in the Twilight Zone between self-standing city and L.A. suburb (which takes in most of the places north and west of the L.A. city limites itself, like Santa Monica and Pasedena)
I don't believe that any of IKEA's stores, not that there are a lot of them, are in urban areas. They're strictly suburban.
I wouldn't consider Elizabeth to be Suburban. Bronx has everything necessary for an IKEA: Cheap available brownfields and numerous highways. The only problem is the Municipal Hall of Idiots has continually rejected Superstore in M zone legislation that would BRING MONEY TO THE CITY AND KEEP RESIDENTS SHOPPING IN THE CITY! Not to mention that some Westchesterites would go to the Bronx.
From what I've seen in pictures and read, Westchester sure sounds alot like the north shore of Nassau county. They don't really have any nice
suburban style malls, and alot of the villages and cities (such as Yonkers and New Rochelle) are in run down shape.
I remember how lousy it was when I went through Yonkers years ago. Glen Cove is a smaller version of Yonkers. It's run down, has little to offer, and seems to have strong opposition to any improvement.
What happened with IKEA is just the kind of thing that would happen in Glen Cove. Sounds like people in New Rochelle are just as bad as in my area. And I remember seeing a story on the news about how a major city (it may be White Plains) in Westchester has no supermarket. It sure sounds alot like the Sea Cliff/Glen Cove area to me. There is a major difference, and that is electrified rail service though. I can see Westchester right across the Sound from Sea Cliff, which is more like Westchester, than Long Island.
I was thinking of visiting Westchester, but forget about it now.
[I was thinking of visiting Westchester, but forget about it now.]
John, I really don't think Westchester is going to miss you. ;-)
But his friends at LI Bus would give him a free Transfer.
John, don't take it personal, we love you ;-)
Mr t
From what I've seen in pictures and read, Westchester sure sounds alot like the north shore of Nassau county. They don't really have any nice suburban style malls, and alot of the villages and cities (such as Yonkers and New Rochelle) are in run down shape.
To a considerable extent, you're correct.
Your North Shore bashing is the ultimate in idiocty. The North Shore is the most beautiful and picturesque part of Nassau County and one of the best on Long Island. In fact, it's the only part of NC other than the barrier islands and the waterfront communities (perhaps some areas near the Suffolk border with which I am less familiar) across the bay from them that isn't skanky, ugly SPRAWL.
People live in on the GOLD COAST because they can afford it (ever wondered why it costs more than Hempstead? People who have a choice actually want to live there). I'm sure that those people in the Coalition to Save Hempstead Harbor understand the lack of public services, but that's why people live in a ruralesque environment. If you hate it so much, THEN MOVE! But stop bitching about it to us.
Glen Cove is skanky too, I still don't get why it isn't more like Locust Valley or Oyster Bay. Or hell, even Great Neck and Manhasset Neck.
There's nothing nice about Glen Cove. LIRR ridership is very poor at Sea Cliff and Glen St. stations, no wonder they tried to close them years back.
Glen Head and Greenvale get more riders. Perhaps those are nicer areas , and there are more commuters.
Kids were play fighting on the Sea Cliff platform today. With no one else around I felt a bit unsafe.
I can understand why someone would want to live in Roslyn, Greenvale, or Great Neck, they are picturesque areas. But Glen Cove and Sea Cliff, yuck!
Kids were play fighting on the Sea Cliff platform today. With no one else around I felt a bit unsafe.
If they were "play fighting" as you say, why were you scared? Are you so antisocial that you are scared of any people alone with you, or any people younger than you?
When one of the kids fell off that platform and on to the tracks, things were getting a bit out of hand don't you think?
They didn't even get on the train when it came. Just imagine if the kid fell in front of the train. We would've had a 12-9 on our hands.
A train platform is not a place for fooling around, period!
When one of the kids [play fighting on the Sea Cliff platform] fell off that platform and on to the tracks, things were getting a bit out of hand don't you think?
They didn't even get on the train when it came. Just imagine if the kid fell in front of the train. We would've had a 12-9 on our hands.
Hey, you would have been able to make a submission to the Darwin Awards!
Note: "A Tale of Ten Cities", Volume One, "Rolling Thunder: The Elevated Railroad and the Urbanization of New York" is a social history of the El which examines the role it played in expanding the urban boundaries of Greater New York. Below is an excerpt from one of the opening chapters.
Eric Dale Smith
"From the moment I first saw King Kong tie knots in a Third Avenue local I was fascinated by the El's size, and by the type of people who rode and built it. I was born ten years after the last of the Manhattan elevateds, the Third Avenue El was torn down in 1955. When Brooklyn's Myrtle Avenue line was shut down fourteen years later I was only four, my interest in the Els still embryonic.
"Now, some twenty-five years later and countless rides on elevated trains in New York and Chicago I had come here again, here beneath the shadows of the Broadway El. For years it had been speaking to me, urging me to tell its story. The last of the lines built in the Nineteenth Century still standing, I was sure that it had much to say, not the least of which was that the more things changed, the more some things remained the same".
By Eric Dale Smith
AmErica House
Frederick, Maryland
Copyright 2000
I have started to see (at least on the N/R line) the new maps with a carveout explaining the 63rd Street Connector. Two problems to point out:
1) Why hasn't the MTA website been updated with this valuable material?
2) The maps show the correct connection for the E/F detour, i.e. there is an extention of the "orange" line beyond the B/Q terminus that is connected to the E/F line. The only problem is that there is no acknowledgement at all of the R detour. The R reroute also flows through the B/Q terminus, but is not properly represented on the maps. In fact, the extention connects beyond the 36th St stop.
Anybody else see this one?
-s
I picked up the Jan 2001 edition of "The Map" at the TM store in GCT yesterday. The connector is represented by a dotted orange line between 21st/Queensbrige and the Northern Blvd. express tracks, and there's a box explaining the off-hour service through it. From this map, the connector does appear to merge-in beyond 36th Street as opposed to before that station. Perhaps once the light green 'G' stripe has been omitted from the Queens IND beyond Ct. Sq., it will be easier to more accurately represent the connector. Once the connector service is official, the new map will be noticably altered with the omission of the 4th line-stripe on the Queens IND. Instead of Green/Yellow/Orange/Blue between QP and 71st, it will be simply Yellow/Orange/Blue. That map will be a keeper, for those of you who like to keep maps, like me.
Another set of maps for the nycubway.org map index!
With only one orange line it will be way confusing around 36th, since the express would have to be shown with a separate orange line after 65th, when it gets to 36 the two lines would have to cross (think DeKalb).
They should use 2 separate orange lines throughout (think Concourse, and 80s Hillside ave line). Using one line, people would think the F was making all the stops.
>>>Using one line, people would think the F was making all the stops.<<<
When I first moved to New York, looking at the transit map, I thought the '4', '5', and '6' served every stop on Lexington Avenue / Park Avenue South. So I got on the '4' at 86th Street heading downtown expecting to get off at Astor Place. That mistake, and a native explaining how I had to look at the small numbers/letters beneath the stop name to see whether and what time of day a particular train stopped there, was the beginning of enlightenment for me about the map's and system's design.
Therefore, we'll have to see whether the orange stripe on the map in Queens depicts Queens IND-6th Avenue service using this method, one stripe, or some kind of 2 orange stripe arrangement.
There will have to be two orange stripes if they want to keep the Northern Blvd express tracks separate from the Steinway/Broadway local tracks. My guess is that the orange V stripe will be below the yellow R stripe and merge with the orange F stripe near Northern Blvd; east of Northern Blvd, the black dot indicating a local stop will be moved down to cover the yellow & single orange stripes.
I crudely edited the MTA map in Paintbrush for a vague idea of what it might look like; I posted it here. It isn't entirely accurate; pay no attention to the 21 St Shuttle or the Stillwell Ave area :).
Pretty cool map, I especially like how the Broadway line seems so busy. Is it true that none of the Bway trains will run express in Manh? If so, it seems like a prelude to a parking lot. The G train looks so truncated though. Sad fate for the Brooklyn-Queens Crosstown oddity (with my favorite line color), but what can ya do?....
Both Q services wil run express in Manhattan.
And the W
What about the poor little N line (me)? Can I have some fun too?
N Broadway Line ---> Express?
Astoria
Hey, you're having your fun now during the station renovations; enjoy it while it lasts ;).
Hahahahaaa.
N Bwy
You Have A Very Nice Map that You Made There. But You Did Just 1 Error On the map. Witch Is.
The N Train go's to coney Island not 86 ST In Brooklyn.
So I Hope You Fix That Error right of way. Ok.
I said not to look at the Stillwell Avenue area! The N cutback was in anticipation of the Stillwell reconstruction, which should also include the F and Q being cut back and only the W going to Stillwell. It wasn't something I intended on maintaining, anyway, just something I threw together for my own purposes when the rumors started flying a couple months ago.
The N Train go's to coney Island not 86 ST In Brooklyn.
So I Hope You Fix That Error right of way. Ok.
YEAH!!!!!!!!!
N Broadway Line
Astoria
I wish they will go back to using blocks as stops and circles as express stops. The blocks are better because they are easier to identify if you're a local passenger. And since both 6th Avenue lines traveling on Queens Blvd (one express and the other local), wouldn't it be easier to use blocks over dark circle to indicate local stops.
N Broadway Line
Astoria
I have seen 9558-9559 numerous times on the 6 and 7 lines. I had noticed that some of the fonts on the number plates of these cars are different from the standard font used by the rest of the R36 cars. Why is this? Was this on any other car, or are these the only two that have them?
I had seen 9550 and 9551. I have a picture of these two cars with the yellow stripe. Upon further inspection of the cars now, the black stripes covers the yellow ones.
I had also seen another R36M car with a black stripe beneath the number plate, but it's of regular width. I think it's 9545, but I'm not 100% sure of that.
Have you at least seen pictures of the R36 cars with th names of states on the side? I was thinking that they should start a car naming program on NYCT. PATH has such a program. For example, PATH car #755 is also known as the City of Hoboken. R36 #9440 is also known as the "State of Rhode Island." The name would be placed in the stripe below the number plate. If the text of the name is too awkward for that, it would be placed below the stripe on another level.
Examples
9440, with "State of Rhode Island" addition.
9658, with "Neighborhood Youth Corps" addition.
9748, with "Commonwealth of Massachusetts" addition.
The original number plates are all the same font. These plates were removed during the graffiti craze of the '70s and were replaced with "stick-on" type numbers. These numbers were not made nearly as well as the originals, became rusty, and in many cases, peeled off. So, some were redone, some were painted on, etc. If you look at the redbirds on the number 5, for example, you'll see what I mean.
I've seen R-36 Nos. 9558-9559 a number of times and have noticed that the font for the numbers is sifferent than most of the rest of the cars. I also think that several other R-36s have a different font for the numbers on the number plates.
BMTJeff
There are only 2 ML R 36 cars that have the Corona stickers on them they are 9554 and 9555 1 side of 9555 still has Pelham stickers while 1 side has corona stickers. 9550 and 9551 have black stickers some one spay painted them black. Those are really Pelham stickers. If you get a close look you can see how big they are. Missing mainline cars on the 7 line are as follows: 9540 9541 9542 9543 9546 9547 9552 9553 9556 9557. I would assume they are getting their stickers changed. 9558 and 9559 were never on the 6 line those 2 are GEs the 6 line only uses Westinghouse cars however back in 1996 9558-9569 (12 cars) did leave the 7 line to go to the 4 line. They are back from the 4 line where they belong on the 7 line.
That was a typo. I meant to say "9548 and 9549," like it says on the subject line.
The numbers on 9548 and 9549 are almost handwritten.
#9314 also has a "stick on decal" number that is falling off - or is melting from the heat.
flx7595
They tracked down a murderer by checking SEPTA's computer records of where and when he swiped his Transpass.
Inky Article
I've never seen the real use behind having the male/female distinctions. Until '95, you were able to cover that sticker over with your finger when you swipe it. But still, in a pinch, I've used my mom's Transpass and never got stopped for it.
"I've never seen the real use behind having the male/female distinctions."
Old commuter trick: cut your monthly commutation ticket in half vertically, keep one half and give the other half to your wife for shopping trips into town. Always keep the ticket in a wallet so that the half sticking out of the pocket looks like an intact ticket. When the conductor is checking tickets, just flash your wallet. Unless he asks you to pull the ticket out, you're home free and have two tickets for the price of one.
The solution was the Male/Female thing. That's why the male & female are in the two top corners of the ticket: if you cut the ticket down the middle, only one half will have male or female properly marked.
You can still cover the sticker with a finger and swipe it. The vendors are still putting the sticker on such that this can be done.
I have to confess that I infrequently misuse transfers (same route, expired time, double-punched, etc). The level of operator observation of this is very low. I have yet to be challenged when I do this (and I usually am ready for the challenge - I'll pay the fare without argument and play dumb). I've advised SEPTA about how transfers are misused this way. It still happens. I think that most operators don't know and don't care, unfortunately.
Maybe you told SEPTA shortly before this incident:
At my old job, one of my duties was to pick kids up from school and bring them to an afterschool program in Center City.
I had to pick up from 2 schools, one in North Philadelphia and one in Univeristy City.
Once I picked up the North Philly kids, we got on the BSS to connect to the trolley to get to the University City school.
Making a long story short, once I picked up the UC kid and tried to get the trolley back into CC, I was told I could not because I had a transfer from the BSS and I was getting on at a stop nowhere near that line. Fortunately, the operator took pity on me and the 3 little ones and let the two North Philly kids on gratis.
Guess there are a few sparks of humanity in SEPTA employees.(BTW, this incident is not the reason I no longer work there:)
There are some sparks of humanity, but there are still the 'raging fires' of the same old 'who cares about the riders' attitude. Witness the snow problems on Tue morning this week - TV says service is running normally with some short turns. Unfortunately the street supervisor in Roxborough decides to ignore the snow routing and sends all 27's on Ridge Ave instead of Henry, even though Henry was clear and passable. Result - many, many stranded (and pissed) riders who were told that the bus service was normal. This isn't the first time this has happened, again despite SEPTA's well-publicized snow emergency routing network. I was later told the operators didn't want to 'risk' Henry, even though almost all of them deadheaded outbound along it to reach the Cathedral turnaround, where they were cut back and stacked until the supervisor could make his decision.
Suddenly I don't feel so bad about 'passing bad transfers'...
Just received my monthly newsletter. SATURDAY APRIL 28 is members day. As a new member I'm looking forward to going up and seeing some of the ST/BT guys and piloting 6688. For those of you who aren't members I urge you to sign up, come up and have a great time. The museum is not open to the public on members day.
[The museum is not open to the public on members day.]
But, it's family day ... bring the kids for hot dogs & such ... look over old photos, reminisce ... and get there early for a ticket that will let you get a little handle time on your favorite car.
Last year a group of tin lisleys stopped by ... they fit right in with the trolleys.
The R-17 didn't get her new coat (of paint) yet, but loyal fans won't mind because she glides down the road just the same. There was a nice photo in our newsletter from Autumn in NY days inside the R-17. It looked like a average day on the system in NYC (folks with their kids sitting on the seats), except there was this big group of folks at the front window. The caption said "guess which way the train is going"
P.S. That same issue of our newsletter invites folks to attend the trolley operator training classes in March. This operator put in 100 hours last year taking happy folks for a ride, plus about the same with the R-17 or on the line doing track work ... it was a labor of love.
Mr t__:^)
I can't wait, I know what two cars I'm signing up for (if they don't change the process from last year). 6688 and 2001 and I pray I can drive 2001 FOWARD, it seems I'm always moving it backwards and I think I've actually moved it foward a total of 100 feet.
Now that the wife's a member, we have to work on her getting handle time!!
Well, it's kind of fun driving a PCC backwards, especially in the dark where if it wasn't for the BMTman in shot gun position I would have had absolutely no idea where I was going. I can see it now ... Dee slow down, no no the other peddle quick because we're running out of track.
Mr t__:^)
Well, I'd just be happy getting a FULL-RUN this time on 1227...the prettiest gal in the R/T fleet at Branford!
Also wouldn't mind getting to take 1689 down the line.
(Ouch! I expect flamage from Stef any second now...:-)
BMTman
We'll only let BMTman drive 1227 if he promises to change his name to Edward Luciano and promises to proclaim "Look ma, No hands!"
What?!?! Holy @#$@!!! Shame on you. The prettiest gal in the fleet still remains 6688. She gives those old ladies (1227 and 1689) a run for their money....
-Stef
...but until 6688 gets a fresh coat of paint...I'm sorry but 1227 takes first prize -- hands down...
BMTman
You see it happened again, now both the BMTman & I have fallen in love with this old wooden Brooklyn elevated car. I particularly like her back porch & they way she glides down the line so effortlessly.
Mr t__:^)
This sounds like a new variation on the Brighton/Sea Beach debate.:-)
You'll just have to give my regards to good old 1689. And 6688, too.
If we had dual tracks we could have a race, however the the 3 car subway train that they made up for Autumn in NY was almost as much fun. Seriously we've come to enjoy all the stuff up there, even the trolleys ... ding ding.
Mr t__:^)
6688 would probably blow anything else off the track in a race. You'd have to pit it against another SMEE car to be fair.
At Shoreline, doesn't a former North Shore interurban cars have HT couplers ? What type of braking ?
At Shoreline, doesn't a former North Shore interurban cars have H2 couplers ? What type of braking ?
It has AMU braking with, I think, an M-19 brake valve.
I don't know what the coupler designation is. It is not
H2. More like a radial knuckle coupler.
Now, if B&QT had been smart, like Baltimore Transit, they would have insisted that a backup control had been installed. BTC, one the first 3 PCC operators in 1936, refused to buy the PCC unless it was equipped with a backup control. The ERPCC modified the PCC wiring harness and control specs to allow the instalation of a backup control. Every single end streetcar operated in Baltimore had a backup controller, from the semi-convertable rebuilds of 1929 to the Peter Witts of 1930 to every PCC. Putting the operator of a car that is being backed up on the end that the car is moving to is one of the greatest safety features on a streetcar ever invented.
Other cities also had backup controllers on their PCCs. Chicago did.
Yes, but Baltimore was the pioneer. A.T. Clark, the BTC's Superintendant of Rolling Stock & Shops and John B. Duvall, Supt. of Transportation were opposed to having ANY single end cars without a backup control. So, BTC, while interested in the PCC, and wanting to modernize a system, got the ERPCC to modify the wiring harness and the control equipment to allow the introduction of a backup controller on the PCC.
Baltimore, Chicago, Cleveland, Washington, Los Angeles, Kansas City Minneapolis and San Deigo all specified the backup control.
Boston, Pittsburgh, Philadelphia, Brooklyn, St. Louis, Cincinatti and Toronto did not. Philadelphia also disabled the backup controllers on their ex-Kansas City cars.
Try to back up a PCC while looking through the back window of an Air-Electric PCC is about as difficult as it comes. An All-Electric isn't much better. I've done both, and it ain't fun. Give me a backup controller every time for a backup move.
We use "arm strong" back up Controllers, i.e. someBODY we trust in the back seat, as we have no turn around, so it's always a 2 man crew ;-)
Since it only comes out on special days there is extra crew available.
If we want to offer this "modern" trolley to the public on a regular basis, then we would probally get our Brillinner PCC, #8 from SEPTA fixed up ... mostly mechanical ... she's in pritty good shape inside. It's like the "Dallas Car" double enders. I think we still have one Dallas Car left (one was traded).
Mr t
Sorry Thurston, no more Dallas cars. Try Seashore or Warehouse
Point for some Dallas car displays. Our one and only
was traded to the, um, Hummelston & Middletown, I think is
the name, railway / preservation group. This was back in the
early 1990s. We indirectly received SEPTA Master Unit 84 in
trade.
Brilliner #8 is not considered a PCC as it was not built under
license from TRC. It shares many components with a PCC, such
as lighting and controls, and has a PCC-like body style, but
the trucks are a unique Red Arrow / Brill design. This has made
it very challenging to re-gauge.
Although the body is pretty, it's another story when you look
beneath the paint. There is a lot of hidden damage from years of
service with water seepage along the letterboard, beltrail and
post caps. A fair weather car.
I think you mean 1001.
Jeff, I think Lou was right.
2001 will be the new number designation after 3/4 Ton Crew makes some modifications to 1001. We're going to add a shirt to her, and add a lightning-bolt style racing stripe down the side....just kidding....I think....;-). And to keep the PCC true to it's name, we'll add a PA-voice announcement that will based on the voice of 'HAL 9000'.
BMTman
Yah Yah, I did another type-O, I get one once a year. You guys still didn't let me live down 4373 or was it 4375 or 437??....
I can see when I'm 104 and we have an R142 I'll derail it because I typed the wrong thing into the computer...
Yeah! And I might miss it (unless I can get a day off) since I now work on weekends effective 2/17/01. But in my absence, I expect the rest of you to have a great time. 6688 really rocks. Oh well! I'll have to give myself some handle time on the car these last two weekends that I'll be there before starting work.
-Stef
Looking forward to joining you... can't believe that I haven't made it up since LAST member's day... 629, here I come!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Looking foward to it also. I'm making sure I don't work that weekend.
Paul
How about 316 ... velvet seats, 4 vs. 8 wheels & a great big brake handle (no air assist) ... now I would pay to see you doing that !
Well even put Mouse Jr on the back porch just to adjitate the car a little ... just a little for the fun of it.
Mr t__:^)
I operated that one last spring too... loved the brake handle (it wasn't hard at all), hated the bouncy ride. My hat's off to the true craftsmen who restored that beauty.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Here is your chance to see your name on the web! We need one or more volunteers to do a station-by-station of the Shore Line East from New Haven. We already have New Haven so all we need is a description of the other stations." EX: Station red has two high wall platforms, four tracks and a crossover. the remains of a low island platform were seen between the inner pair of tracks. Of course, you'd fill int eh name of your station and what is actually there. Send it to me to review and I'll forward to Dave.
A station-by-station for NJT's MidTOWN Direct,Northeast Corridor and North Jersey Coast ahs been submitted to Dave as has the New Haven line (including New Canaan, Danbury and Waterbury branches). Pictures have also been submitted for Stamford, New Canaan, Danubry, Waterbury, South Norwalk, Bridgeport,Fordham, New Haven and University heights.
I can not do the Shore Line due to limited service and problems getting to Grand Central from NJ without leaving the night before. Help us finish the CT COmmuter Rail pages.
Good article on the effect jumpers have on Train Operators
Peace,
ANDEE
There is a NY Times article today, I've lifted a few comments for us to talk about:
"When Mr. Conway was appointed M.T.A. chairman in 1995, he was seen as the consummate loyalist to Gov. George E. Pataki. Nothing has changed that view. Even as Mr. Conway's critics note his courtly, polite manner, they assail policies on his watch, like allowing the state to stop its longstanding practice of contributing to the authority's huge capital programs and leaving the agency in a mountain of debt, so much so that a major fare increase may eventually be necessary."
"Mr. Conway, however, is satisfied with his work, forcing the agency to try to do more with less money. I am carrying out the governor's transportation policy," he said, leaning back in his chair. "He has a great vision that I share."
Leaving the agency with a mountain of debt is Pataki's great vision ?
I think Virgal did a respectible job, which would have been much better had Governer Pataki not withheld the money he needed to do it.
So, I blane George more then Virgal or Larry for the debt legacy.
Mr t__:^)
You're absolutely on the money, Thurston. Conway did what he could while doing his boss' bidding. For anything to change fundamentally, the Governor would have to OK it.
From the start of the MTA under Rockefeller, the city and the suburbs have been forced to fight for their shares of inadequate funding. I haven't checked recently, but in the late 80's and early 90's, the funding favored the suburbs.
The other problem (which probably will never be resolved) is that the costs in the NY area are so high that federal funding will never make a real contribution.
Right on the first; not necessarily so on the second (all depends on the skill in obtaining Part 21 dollars).
That's why the Guv. hired a banker to do the nasty...DUH
Peace,
ANDEE
That's why the Guv. hired a banker to do the nasty.....DUH
Peace,
ANDEE
Additionally, as I have said before, Virgil built all of his success on groundwork that had been laid by Peter Stangl, a TRUE transit professional. Virgil won't be missed. Chris Boylan is the person that REALLY runs the MTA anyway.
Peace,
ANDEE
Repeat after me, "Because of the Conway-Pataki Debt."
The statement to used in answer to any of the following questions for the next 30 years.
Why are fares going up?
Why are wages falling behind inflation?
Why is service being cut (not increased)?
Why aren't new lines being built?
Why aren't spare parts being ordered?
Why isn't the trash being cleaned up?
Why isn't the graffiti being cleaned up?
At least we voted down the damn bond issue.
The bond issue might have been one of the few components that was actually equitable (spread costs more fairly among city/non city dwellers)..
(The bond issue might have been one of the few components that was actually equitable (spread costs more fairly among city/non city dwellers)..)
The non-city portion was for construction. The city portion was for a study. We didn't get the Second Avenue Subway when actual bond issues were passed for its construction, in 1951 and 1967. Do you actually think we would get a subway after passing a bond issue to fund a study?
They're borrowing $20 billion over five years (including the refinancing) for the kind of routine stuff (buying cars, replacing X amount of track, etc.) that in a community that cared about the future would be considered operating expenses, and funded pay as you go. Were it not for this fleece and flee policy, that same $20 billion could have built Second Avenue and the LIRR to GCT, completing the original MTA plan, and (if we weren't so ripped off by contractors) much else besides.
Larry, you possess the same good sense that led everyone from the Conservative party to this liberal to oppose the bond issue last November. Don't bond for studies,bond for concrete and steel.
Carlos Diaz, who killed 4 people when he pushed his ex girlfriend's car into the path of a freight train near Reading (PA) last April was sentenced to 20 to 40 years for each conviction, to run consecutively. No chance of parole for 80 years. Story in Thursday's Inkie.
Thats it he should get life.
80 years no parole is life.
He'll almost suely be in jail for the rest of his life. He should have received for consecutive life sentences for the crime.
BMTJeff
If he has four consecutive 20 to 40 year sentences (since he has an 80 year minimum), he will serve, if he is never parolled, 160 years! Nobody lives that long!
He'll almost suely be in jail for the rest of his life. He should have received four consecutive life sentences for the crime.
BMTJeff
(Reading from the title of this thread)
Well. That's what he gets for murdering a train! We don't take kindly to that here!
(Sorry. Couldn't resist!)
;-D Andrew
"Well. That's what he gets for murdering a train! We don't take kindly to that here!"
murdering a train? What a cold blooded comment. That frieght train probably received a couple of scratches compare to the vehicle that was involved.
Let say the train was heavily damaged in the accident. At least the train could be replaced. What about those 4 people who was in the car? Can their lives be replaced? The answer is an absolutely no.
So the hell with the TRAIN. Sorry subwaytalk, but I had to say this.
N Bwy
It was a pun made on the ambiguously-worded subject heading ("Train murderer;" i.e., one who has murdred a train)...
Uh..Sorry. That was just a REALLY bad pun. It was late and I was in a silly mood. I appologize to everyone on Earth for that.
Andrew
Don't apologize. It was a humorous spin on an otherwise bad situation.
Hahahaahahaaahahaaa.
This is why he should be called The Grade Crossing Killer.
Can someone tell me what the origins of Candace Wertz's. And, what in the nerve is a 8,000-ton freight train traveling at 57 m.p.h.?!!! I thought the most these train can go is 30/40 miles an hour?
N Broadway Line
Astoria
"And, what in the nerve is a 8,000-ton freight train traveling at 57 m.p.h.?!!! I thought the most these train can go is 30/40 miles an hour?"
The idea that all freight trains are slow is a common misperception that arises when people see trains going relatively slowly through street crossings in urban & denser suburban areas. Intermodals -- LONG trains carrying shipping containers ("stack trains" because the containers are usually stacked one atop another) or truck trailers ("pig trains" because the trailers are riding piggyback) on flatcars -- are high priority trains for the railways. They are assigned several powerful engines and can routinely reach 70mph on long, straight stretches of track as in the West.
Here in Chicago, many of the rail lines heading out of the city, especially to the north and west, are straight and relatively flat. It's common to see intermodals flying along at the speed of commuter trains on the UP-West and BNSF lines.
Plus they don't have any field shunt modifications.:-)
"They are assigned several powerful engines and can routinely reach 70mph on long"
OH MY GOD!!! HOW DO THEY MANAGE TO STOP THOSE TRAINS WHEN THEY TRAVEL AT THOSE HIGH SPEEDS?!
N Broadway Line
Astoria
>>> OH MY GOD!!! HOW DO THEY MANAGE TO STOP THOSE TRAINS
WHEN THEY TRAVEL AT THOSE HIGH SPEEDS?! <<<
By applying the brakes constantly for about five miles.
Tom
This train was not an intermodal. If you look at the accident pics you'll see tank cars so it was either a general freight or a unit train of some type (oil or sulfer). The line where the accident occured was the NS Harrisburg Line (former Reading Lebanon Valley branch) and is the key NS east west route seeing 50-60 freight trains a day. The line is being upgraded to Rule 261 signaling and many parts are flat and straight. As a rule of thumb the typical linespeed for freight trains is 50-60 mph on signaled lines w/ 140 pound welded rail.
Maybe I'm too western but then I felt the same when I was an easterner. After a quadruple murder which obviously took some thinking to execute..oh..that word..execute was the only proper punishment for the crime.
I know some say life in prison is worse,I think such people should get exactly what they perpetrate. The PA taxpayers will be supporting this clown for 80 years unless the jailbirds get him first.
Sorry if I rub some people the wrong way. I always think of the victims and their loved ones.
Bubba will deal with this lowlife soon enough, I'm sure. Does PA have the death penalty? If so, it should have been pursued.
Bubba will deal with this lowlife soon enough
WHO?
Too bad the scum didn't do a federal crime, DUBYA, not BUBBA would would take care of him. Yo, Bu$h, this piece of dirt delayed a train (Interstate commerce) so would you send Ashcroft and your supremes over to hook him to the catenary. Actually, conservatives are right about a lot of things, this is one of them.
I have seen several individuals who would qualify for the title of BUBBA, and they would scare Hulk Hogan to death - no kidding!
Moral of story - do not go to jail.
Does PA have the death penalty? If so, it should have been pursued.
It does and it was. The jury found him NOT GUILTY of first degree murder. They only found him GUILTY of 4 counts of 3rd degree murder each with a sentence of 20-40 years. Unlike Texas PA has a fair legal system where defendants have to be PROVED guilty. Perrish the thought.
The death sentence became inappropriate when a "witness" testified that she was at the scene waiting for the train, saw the whole thing happen, and didn't see the defendant push the car into the path of the train. This introduced enough "reasonable doubt" that it made first degree convictions difficult. PA has the death penalty, but PA isn't Texas. When the guy gets out in 80 to 160 years he'll be too old to drive, so he shouldn't be a risk to repeat the offense.
>>> This introduced enough "reasonable doubt" that it made first degree convictions
difficult. <<<
If the above is true, it is a perversion of the legal system. If there was really any reasonable doubt that the defendant caused the deaths, he should have been acquitted. A reduced sentence indicates the jury was not able to determine if it was planned or a spur of the moment thing.
Tom
The Jury had reasonable doubt of 1st degree murder. They aquitted on that and found him guilty on 4 counts of 3rd degree murder. Basically the procution proved he had been chasing her around and intending to do harm. He was why she got hit by the train weather he pushed her car or not.
He is now set for the rest of his life - a bed, three meals, free clothing, a gym, free schooling, no need to worry about income taxes, all bils paid, cable television, a job if he wants it, library, free legal advice, free medical and dental care, no need to worry about burial expenses.
Except that he gets to see 3 walls and a set of bars for the rest of his life, plus somebody's going to run every little aspect of it from now on. He can't get up when he feels like it, can't ever have a private phone any more, gets to see anyone who visits him from behind a bulletproof glass wall and talk to them through a telephone.
His life is not has own from now on. All because he couldn't let go of somebody who was through with him.
You forgot to mention that his sex life will be drastically changed for the rest of his life, and he had better not complain of a headache, because there are no excuses from now on, period.
he had better not complain of a headache, because there are no excuses from now on, period.
"Period," hah hah!
You got it, didn't you? But it serves him right. And referring to another post, BUBBA will be waiting for him - EAGERLY.
You got it, didn't you? But it serves him right. And referring to another post, BUBBA will be waiting for him - EAGERLY.
>>> He is now set for the rest of his life - a bed, three meals, free clothing, a gym, free schooling, no need to worry about income taxes, all bils paid, cable television, a job if he wants it, library, free legal advice, free medical and dental care, no need to worry about burial expenses. <<<
Gee Doc, you make it sound so good. Where do I sign up. Is this why our prisons are so overcrowded?
Tom
I know one thing. I'm not worrying about MY burial expenses, I won't care. 8-)
Peace,
ANDEE
I intend to have my head cryopreserved, and the rest of my body donated to science (by late this century, organ transplantation will surely be obsolete).
That is to assume that people aren't immortal by the time I would otherwise die of something.
I'm asking which trains run through the 63rd Street connector because I want to ride through the 63rd Street connector one of these days just for fun. I don't have the latest edition of "The Map" at this time so I don't know which trains serve the 63rd Street connector at this time.
BMTJeff
Nothing on weekdays. Right now it's the F on weeknights after 10PM and on weekends. But the E and/or R might run there instead of or in addition to the F in future nights and weekends. Starting in August, the F will run that way at all times.
:-) Andrew
MisterK and everybody else:
Thank you for the information.
BMTJeff
There is no "regular" service through the connector at this time. Only GOs and the like.
Peace,
ANDEE
However, there are a lot of GOs currently. Check the MTA Diversions and you will see that the R and F are running a regularly scheduled set of runs through the new 63 St. connection to the Queens Blvd Line.
I hope you do. The stations are quite handsome.
Yeah! They may not be wonderful for style, but they're CLEAN! Looks like another subway! Or a New York from Superman's BIZZARO WORLD!
;-D Andrew
They're great for design too. The curves at Lexington, arch at Roosevelt and high ceilinged 21st Queensbridge. Each of these have presentable ceilings, full elevator access and one flight escalators.
The tiles and walls are pretty clean and sleek, especially at Roosevelt (my favorite designed stop). It looks like the subway of the 21st Century. Even those R-40s look like the most sleek and futuristic of the NYC subway cars from the outside. From the inside, dull and utilitarian.
It's like somebody took an R-38 and gave it a brand new exterior...
Because the train design was young, and without an aged interior, it wouldn't have the maturity and perspective necessary to be a train.
At the present, the B and Q still serve the 63rd st. line. Soon, the F will run through there, although those red and white service notices have pointed out that some nights E and F trains are going through there
FYI, as of November 2000, all normal "B" service (NOT shuttle) is via Central Park West to either 145 or Bedford Park.
There is still a shuttle, but with the G.O.'s lately, I am unsure how that affects shuttle service.
New schedules reflecting this are here:
http://www.mta.nyc.ny.us/nyct/service/pdf/tbcur.pdf
On the weekends, B trains still go to 21st. or at least that's what the site said
That's not true. B trains on weekends go to 145th st or sometimes to Bedford Park. It went to Bedford last weekend due to construction.
I didn't know this, the website doesn't mention this. I wonder: will central pk. west get this service all the time now? that'd be great, as it would increase service on weekends.
Once the bridge swap occurs the northern half of the B will be weekdays only to 145, rush hours to Bedford Pk. It will be 8 60' cars long, I think.
The B consists will be 8 R-68s.
Peace,
ANDEE
"I wonder: will central pk. west get this service all the time now? that'd be great, as it would increase service on weekends."
My point in the earlier post, Central Park doesn't need that type of service. In other words, too much service for too few people. My belief is the B should replace the C since the A duplicates the C entirely.
And what would you do about Brooklyn local service? There's no place to turn the train past Jay St, and you can't turn it there because of the problems it would cause. The B will eventually wind up going to 145st mid days and when it is not a shuttle.
-Hank
It can be the way it was before they switch the B and C. This also could include making the A making local during the Weekends. The only change would be the B going to West 4th Street on the upper level. Another alternative would be to Run the A local on the weekends (I know most folks won't go for that), or just run the B to 168 using the 6th Avenue route. The E already serves the 50th Street Station. The only problem is, if someone using the 50th Street station wants to go uptown, there will be no C "uptown service. But there is a way out of that. Take the E from downstairs one stop, and then take the B.
But still, I don't think Central Park West warrants (B and C) that type of service.
N Broadway Local
Astoria
"FYI, as of November 2000, all normal "B" service (NOT shuttle) is via Central Park West to either 145 or Bedford Park."
To reserve subway resources for other projects, I propose to have the B service replace the C on the Weekends to 168th Street. It makes no sense to run both trains through Central Park (indeed a waste of public resources).
The new B line could become an 8th Avenue line. It would switch onto the local track from Broadway Lafayette to West 4th Street going on the upper level. Then making C stops all the way to 168th Street.
N Broadway Line.
What other projects? What would you do to all the Brooklyn C riders?
In any case, it's a moot point until the Manhattan Bridge construction is completed in 3 years.
-Hank
The can take the A which will serve those stations.
N Bwy
There's a reason they implemented the express service.
-Hank
Heading southbound it is impossible for an 8th ave line to use the Manny B. Northbound it is possible.
It is certainly possible.
Just look at This map
No it isn't. There's no crossover from the southbound 6th Ave local track (the only track accessable from 8th Ave) to the southbound express track (the one that goes to the Manny B) between W 4 St and Broadway Lafayette. Check the Downtown Manhattan track map.
"No it isn't. There's no crossover from the southbound 6th Ave local track (the only track accessable from 8th Ave) to the southbound express track (the one that goes to the Manny B) between W 4 St and Broadway Lafayette. Check the Downtown Manhattan track map."
I got it. The connection can only be made to the F, not the F and than the express tracks to the bridge. Strange, the E was doing this diversion some weeks ago with no problem. But this isn't the Manhattan Bridge. I still think the C isn't needed on the Weekends. They can be two different A's. One express (Far Rockaway Branch) and the other local (Lefferts Blvd) in Brooklyn. But my real point is that Central Park West doesn't need that type of service on the Weekends.
N Broadway Line
Astoria
Basically, that would slash A service in half, making it even worse than C service. C trains may not be needed on CPW with the B, but then the B, not the C should get the cutback. Even on weekends, A express service Is needed, and the idea of putting some A trains express, some local would seriously confuse people. Look at the R-44 signs. A southbound train sign on the A: Fulton Local/8th ave express to Dyckman St.
I started a thread not too long ago about NH Electrics ... during it's course it wandered to a discussion about the light weight experments.
This month my NHRHTA calandar has a lovely color shot of John Quincy Adams, the F-M entry ... #3100 poses at New Haven.
Mr t__:^)
And if you have OSH (Orchard Supply Hardware) in your area (they are owned by Sears), they were giving out free 2001 calendars of vintage EMD diesels, all paintings by Mike Danneman. this month is a beautiful shot of NH FL9 2055 and a mate overtaking a pair of EF-4 electrics int he snow.
I've got room on my wall for another calendar (have four now). Thanks for the tip.
Mr t__:^)
None listed in mu Nassau ma bell book :-(
Mr t
Since this weekend R replaces E to Jamaica Center, does this mean more than half of R trains will be R32s?
If the answer is yes, I will come to NYC this weekend. If not, I will stay at home.
Thanks for the info.
Chaohwa
The answer is probably yes. Last weekend, most of the Rs I saw were 32s (and I finally got to see the 63rd St connector!)
:-) Andrew
Yup, last weekend it was R32's on the R, I rode it a couple of times and all I saw were 32's.
Both Andrew and Lou, thanks a lot for the information! :-)
Chaohwa
Keep in mind the R-32 Rs will be running in one large bunch, since the only reason they're there is that when the GO starts, Es become Rs as they hit Jamaica CTR.
Well I'll try to look for some R32's R this weekend, hopefully this time I'll have good luck. There's nothing like an R32 in the 60th street tube. The speed is awesome.
Really, I didn't see too many last weekend. Must've just been my luck!
I didn't see too many R32 R trains last weekend,so I wouldn't expect too much. Probably like 1 in 5 R trains is an R32.
I'm telling ya I got 3 in a row, TRUTH!!
That's 'cause they hide all the R32s from John. They say here comes John let's ruin his day. 8-)
Peace,
ANDEE
Maybe I am stubborn. When I see an R32 train on the R line, I will wait until an R32 R train comes.
Chaohwa
The R will still run via 60th St tube.
That's good. This is exactly what I want.
Chaohwa
I just saw on the news that there was some sort of cable car crash in L A it was just small scroll at the bottom of the screen does anyone else know any more.
L.A. has cable cars?
Peace,
ANDEE
It must be Angels' Flight.
Oh yeah, forgot about the funicular railway.
Peace,
ANDEE
Looks like you hit the nail on the head, Steve.
Peace,
ANDEE
i found a link to the story
http://www.channel2000.com/news/stories/news-234820010201-140217.html
you can see photos of this ANGELS FLIGHT back in setember 2000 in the new images section here !! ( near whats new ? )....
also ..
http://photos.yahoo.com/asiaticcommunications
click on ANGELS FLIGHT..
I don't know msnbc might nt know much about Transit thats what they said.
The two cars of the Angels Flight funicular railway in downtown Los Angeles, Olivet and Sinai, collided at lunchtime today, injuring 16 people. I witnessed the accident scene after leaving the Red Line subway on my way back to work. In fact, I had ridden Angels Flight just this morning. The two wooden cars suffered damage, but they appear repairable. A picture and an article are on the Los Angeles Times site: http://www.latimes.com/news/state/updates/ap_angels010201.htm
I am not aware of any accident on this railway in its history.
When built, the two cars counter-balanced each other on one cable. When it was reinstalled in 1996, I understand that each car now has its own cable.
So how could they hit each other??
Same track, they pass each other in the middle if I recall correctly.
we are watching this LIVE on all the "TV" news here. We are not happy to see this !!
This really makes me sad I really liked ANGELS FLIGHT!! you can see the photos I took september 2000 loaded on the whats new? & new images section you can see some of what i took there! Also you can see ALL the photos of ANGELS FLIGHT on
http://photos.yahoo.com/asiaticcommunications
click on ANGELS FLIGHT ...
Lou,
You are correct. No switches needed - the wheel flanges do the work. Sallamallah's picture shows it perfectly.
http://i8.yimg.com/8/42d34864/h/4/aa8525ee/AngelsFlight84.jpg
Dang, I had been looking forward to riding Angels Flight on our upcoming trip to Los Angeles (2-19 to 2-26). Scratch those plans.
Yep. Don't plan on riding it ever again from the talk today. Apparently one of those injured in the crash DIED afterwards, from the story in this morning's L.A. Times. Now that there's been a fatality, chances of it returning to service are VERY slim.
"Now that there's been a fatality, chances of it returning to service are VERY slim."
Why people have died in other amsment park rides more than once and they haven't been closed. and how many people have been killed in the New York subway.
Yeah, as long as no animals were harmed, it'll probably reopen. :)
But.....
Angel's Flight is owned by ?City of Los Angeles?
It does NOT bring in anything near a profit as amusement park rides do.
It is NOT a necessary service as a subway system is. It's there basically for historical reasons only.
>>> It's there basically for historical reasons only. <<<
Although Angels Flight does have regular users, and could be replaced by an escalator, it is principly a tourist attraction, and as such it will be rebuilt with additional safety features. See the Los Angeles Times article which indicates that an elevator company withdrew its maintenance bid because of safety considerations.
Tom
MLB.com is reporting today that maybe the former NY Giants (now they are in SF) really did steal the pennant in 1951. The report says that the Giants were stealing the other teams signs, which is a common thing to have happen. -Nick
No maybe about it, they've admitted it. Apparently, it was known since then, but no one talked about it. MLB banned using mechanical means to steal signals in 1961. But if you can do it without violating the mechanical rule, it is not illegal.
-Hank
In response to a previous post. B trains go to 145th on weekeends due to construction. However it went all the way to Bedford Park last weekend
Hey, that's kind of weird: B trains going to Bedford pk. on weekends. Speaking of B trains and bedford park, I've noticed that B trains going to bedford park often have 1/2 of their signs marked 145th. One day i even saw a sign that said: B Euclid Av, Bklyn 42nd st, Times Square. How'd that happen.
The right screwdriver can scroll a rollsign. I'd imagine someone was alone in the car and had such a screwdriver, and decided to have a little fun.
I have just finished rereading the subject book. It had been over a year since I last read it.
This book has some great pictures of, and text about the old IRT equipment for those who are interested. I really enjoyed reading it again.
The best part is that this book is apparently still in print. I would not have even known this book existed if I hadn't heard about it here on SubTalk!
Yes Karl this site is full of all sorts of wonders ... Thanks Dave.
Mr t__:^)
Any time :-)
You got that right.:-) At times, it has evolved into Foodtalk, Planetalk, TVrepairtalk, and most recently, Elevatortalk.
How right you are! If Subtalk had been around seven to ten years ago, a lot of these great books would still be in print; I'm thinking of the "Brooklyn Elevateds" in particular.
Eric
I've had my copy of "Interborough Fleet for over two years and I was just looking at it for a little while this morning.
BMTJeff
Enough talk....who has the book and how much is it? i love the old introborough cars....thanks.
I think the book retails for either $36. or $37.
I got mine mail order from Rails 'N' Shafts in Laurys Station PA.
Ron's Books In Harrison NY also offers the book for sale.
Both of these dealers have full page ads in railfan magazines.
Hope this helps! :->
Willis Hobbies had one left at 36.95 ... don't know if they are re-ordering, but there's a senior guy at the front of the store who you could talk to about it ... sorry don't have his name. He wasn't their this Sunday either.
It and my copy of "They Moved Millions" by Ed Davis, Sr. and Gotham Turnstiles by John Henderson form a good historical background.
BTW, Willis has two copies of latter.
I didn't realy appreciate what the Composite or Flivvers were in relation to IRT, but thanks to Interborough Fleet I do now.
The story I like to tell is two years ago I had no clue what a Lo-V, Hi-V, etc. were, then there I was driving them at Branford (Hi-V & Lo-V). This Fall I got my first ride in a D type ... another car type I only now know what it was/is. Thanks Dave !
Mr t__:^)
Thurston, If you don't already have them, you might want to look for
Subway Cars of the BMT by James Greller
The Brooklyn Elevated by James Greller & Ed Watson
These both may be out of print now but they are great books!
I'm pritty sure that BMT book was sitting right next to Interborough Fleet. It does look a book as good as the one I just bought on the IRT syatem. A friend is going to price it at the TA Museum.
But thanks for the tips just the same.
Mr t__:^)
Subway Cars of the BMT is also available at TMNY.
That's the one ... looks like a realy nice book. As long as it doesn't have any Hippos in it I might get one ;-)
Mr t
I have it. Its OK. I think that the book about the IND & post-unification cars is the best one out there.
Another good book is Gotham Turnstiles,it does have a lot of good color photos including subway stations showing the gum machines and the peanut machines,the days before the grafitti crap was born,one photo shows the ad for the automobile show in new york,which i used to attend with my dad.i wish more of this type of book was available as i have Gellers books.
Oh yes, that was one of my purchases last year. The color is a nice treat and if you like H&M Black Cars & SIRT this is the book for you.
There was enough on the early steel cars (IRT/BMT/IND) that I was glad I added it to my collection.
Mr t__:^)
I wonder how many color photographs exist of that time taken by railfans of the subway that have never been seen ? it would be nice to have a collection today.
Thanks, i'll try them.
The Trolley Museum of New York's web store has it for $36.95.
tmny.safeshopper.com
I just received it Monday from Amazon.com. It took them 2 months to send it, but it was worth it. I also have the "Cars of the BMT" book by Clifford Greller. Both are excellent. However, I cannot find an equilevent book for IND pre-unification cars. Can anyone help?
BTW, I also bought a smaller book about the IND Wortld's Fair line, by Frederick Kramer. Fascinating book, with plenty of pictures. I cannot fathom why this line, built as well as it was, was not retained after the fair ended, and how it's usefullness today could be measured.
At approximately 8:00 pm, I was walking underneath the White Plains Road el in the Bronx Park East vicinity.
As I heard a train approaching I instinctively looked up to see what type of cars are passing. What I saw surprised me. I first thought I was seeing a Redbird set. But I then saw that a Redbird two car set was pulling a 10 car set of R62's! They may have been R-62A's, I'm not sure. The set was passing rather quickly, so I didn't get a look at the car numbers.
I guess the Redbirds still have it in them. There is something to be said about a set of cars almost 40 yr old pulling a set of cars less than half their age.
I doubt that very much. Either the train was operating
other-than-head-car or those redbirds were cut-in and
it was a 12-car train. There is no way that 2 cars could
or would be pulling 10.
Maybe 10 cars were pulling 2
Peace,
ANDEE
That maybe the case. I did see a man in the operator's booth in the lead car, which was a redbird.
They may have been pushing the redbirds back to East 180th Street. The man may have been acting as the "eyes" of the consist.
I wonder why they chose to do this? Wouldn't it be easier and safer to pull the cars instead of push them? Or why not send a diesel to the rescue? That would not put a strain on the silverbirds and also it would save on the juice required to shove the cars back to the yard. I would only guess this is the case. If anyone has any thoughts about this I would want to hear them.
Is a diesel always available on a moment's notice?
When SEPTA experienced the tragic crash of the old Budd cars on the Market-Frankford line, I remember the papers photographing the disabled train being hauled back to the service yard on the power of other subway cars.
I'm not picturing exactly where this move was taking place
or in what direction, but consider this in answer to why push
instead of pull: At some point, you're gonna have to be pushing,
because if indeed those 2 cars were being transferred to the shop,
they'd be pushed in to the building (or up to the block, or
wherever), and then the pusher train gets cut off and goes home.
If proper flagging procedures are followed, the move is
perfectly safe.
That was a main shop transfer out of 207 St yard. Many times, a transfer crew will get cars out of the main shop destined for multiple barns. I took transfers with cars to be dropped at 239, 180, Mosholu, then the horses to Pelham all in a night. If the cars are assembled in order, making a quick drop is easy. Corona garbage is an all night affair if it involves the IRT mainline, it utilizes 8 hours plus an A/B man for the move. Before the lead off of 207 Street was installed, the moves further required a couple of R10s to provide signal protection to allow IRT cars to travel from the IRT entrance at Concourse to the 207 Stret yard by way of the IND.
Doubtful... REDBIRDS pulling a consist of 62/a's??
...consider there aren't any r62/a's on the 2 line..
Sounds more like a 142 delivery.. hack.
No the train was definitely not R142's. I saw the whole thing pass and the tail end indicated to me that it was in fact an R62/A consist.
The back car had a bullet sign that read NOT IN SERVICE.
Once in a while you will see R62's on the el. When they are short some train sets they will send one every blue moon. Also, the silverbirds pass through on their way up to the car wash at the 238th street yard.
You'd need a coupler adaptor in that case. The Redbirds and R-62/62As have H2C couplers while the R-142s have couplers like the Ohio Brass ones on the R-44s and R-46s.
do the 142's carry them like the 44,46's do?
There is a coupler adapter under one of the seats in the cab cars.
Welcome to www.nycsubway.org
bgcolor="#add8ee">src="/gif/1pixel.gif">border=0 width=312 height=25 SRC="/gif/nycsublogo.gif">border=0 width=44 height=25 src="/gif/1pixel.gif">
Welcome to the premiere color=red>unofficial site about the history of New York City's
subway system-- and other transit systems around the world. Now in our
sixth year! Feel free to browse and let us know what you
think!
WHAT'S Nsize=-1>EW
T
sorry about that i hit the preview botton but it somehow posted.
I think you mean "Somehow, I meant to hit preview but somehow hit post". The preview function doesn't record your post anywhere in the database, or even in a temporary file...
I noticed that now there's a copy of the message in a hidden input tag, in addition to the body of the message.
This means no more number waste?
Right, that's how when you click "Post" from the Preview screen it has some fields to submit for processing. The older method created a temporary post holding the message. I see no reason to commit the message to disk or database until you decide you're ready...
It is no big secret that negotiations are in their final stage to return three PCC type "L" cars to the tracks of the CTA for the filming of a movie in March. The cars would come from the Illinois Railway Museum and be worked on by the Skokie Shops to be brought up to operating specs. No fan trips yet! Car 22, part of my defunct Historical "L" Cars Preservation is included. How ironic.
Maybe too, we can get sequels to Blues Bros. and Cooley High going, not to overlook that action movie with the car chase on the "L". It should be fun.
David Harrison
http://community.webtv.net/ChicagoPCCLCars
My first trolley ride, in the 60s, was on a PCC in Boston. I still love them.
Mr t__:^)
It's too bad they're not returning to the streets. They'd be a great tourist attraction at Riverwalk on in the park alongside Lakeside Drive.
Eric
Too bad they won't be using any 4000s. I remember seeing them on the Evanston Express, but never rode on them.
that action movie with the car chase on the "L"
"Running Scared" with Gregory Hines and Billy Crystal.
Realistic or not, that was one great chase scene.
--Mark
It would probably be a reasonably safe bet that if any PCC based L cars are put back on the CTA's rails for filming that Mr. Doyle will be doing everything in his power to have a fan trip run.
-Robert King
David
Try contacting Webmaster Graham Garfield of www.chicago-l.org. If anybody knows what's going on out there, he does.
Eric
The only question I had was about the car chase movie and Mark answered that. I did forget the fight on the roof of a PCC "L" and the dive into the Chicago River, our river that "leaks." With 6000's running they can remake all those old flicks.
David Harrison
I did plan on shooting the ANGELS FLIGHT during the day / then at night on a 2 hour video!
Now I am hartbroken at what happened yesterday!
I guess when it runs again & has been repaired & go back into operation it will not be the same as it once was .
What a sad day here in los angeles!! ( thats my comment thank you ) ..........
I think it might be. From what I understand it was in a box for 25 years. after that carsh might not be so bad.
A short while ago CP Rail delivered R142's numbered 6381-6385 and also 6451-6455. I was just about to give up when I heard the familiar rumble of the locos.
Oddly the R142's were at the end of the consist. Usually they're right behind the locos. CP Rail usually cuts loose any freight except for the R142's before switching over to the track that leads into Fresh Pond. The only thing they usually ever haul all the way into Fresh Pond Yard are the R142's. This means that they had to uncouple the rest of the freight from the locos and the R142's and hook up with the R142's again to bring them into Fresh Pond. Seems like a little more extra work.
Does anyone know if brake tests are still required after coupling/uncoupling even if you have a FRED that does telemetry? Does CP even use a FRED?
Shawn.
The difficulty of crossing Queens Boulevard, and the large number of pedestrian deaths, is a big topic right now. I was just glancing through "line by line," but didn't get a definative answer to this question.
Can you cross Queens Boulevard in the subway, outside the fare paid area, at some/most/all stations on the QB and Flushing lines?
I believe you have to cross the traffic just to get to the subway on the Flushing line, since it is on an island between vehicular lanes. Or do they have stairs and over-walkways?
If I were the MTA, I'd look at this as a chance to grab some station rehab money.
[Can you cross Queens Boulevard in the subway, outside the fare paid area, at some/most/all stations on the QB and Flushing lines?]
Yes, there are stations that allow you to cross Queens Boulevard bu using the subway. The following is a list of a few of them I've used:
Grand Avenue
Woodhaven Boulevard
71-Continental
Union Turnpike
I think all stops along Queens Boulevard have this feature.\
[I believe you have to cross the traffic just to get to the subway on the Flushing line, since it is on an island between vehicular lanes. Or do they have stairs and over-walkways?]
Nope, you have to cross four lanes of traffic to get to the island which has the el that carries the 7 line along Queens Boulevard.
[If I were the MTA, I'd look at this as a chance to grab some station rehab money.]
And it would be difficult to find places to put those crossings. There isn't a lot of space on the sidewalks of Queens Boulevard.
An entire statiopn mezzanine has to be reconfigured in order to get an overpass installed over Queens Blvd. The way the mezzanines are set up now is that you have the stairs leading to the platforms right against the walls parallel to the Blvd, with fare control gates also parallel to the Blvd.
Each station would have to be reconfigured so that not ounly would an entrance be allowed, but it would require the closing of one stairway on each platform. I don't know about the others on this board, but I think a lot of people wouldn't be happy if the number of usable stairways was cut in half.
63rd Dr doesn't have a crossover.
-Hank
at least one end of the station does have it is outside of fare control.
Union Turnpike has two separate crossovers on opposite sides of the Interboro Parkway.
Yes it does. The southernmost "EXIT ONLY" area does not, stairs go right to street. The middle green-globed entrance has a Queens Blvd crossing, as does the northern red entrance. As for the within fare control crossover, it is in the green section.
You can cross Queens Blvd (+ Hillside ave where applicable) in all stations. At Grand ave and Van Wyck Blvd, you can go in any one entrance and come out any other without entering the fare zone. At 63 drive you can do this with 4 of the 6 exits, at Woodhaven with 3 of the 4, at Continental with 4 of the 5. Those underground connections get surprisingly crowded when it's raining hard. Why walk along outside along QB when you can walk under it?
Why walk along outside along QB when you can walk under it?
Many of the pedestrians who've been run over have been elderly. Some of them may have preferred to take their chances crossing QB rather than struggling with station stairs.
Excellent point. The Roosevelt-Jackson Heights station complex is scheduled for a renovation to make everything fully ADA-compliant (I don't know if that means the elevators will be in or out of fare-control). I hope at least 71rst-Continental and Union Turnpike will be scheduled for that too.
Of course, the rest of the subway needs it. I meant no disrespect to those of you in other boroughs...
Oh, and I forgot - Queens Plaza and Court St need it (ADA, that is, with the looming G cutback).
I believe you have to cross the traffic just to get to the subway on the Flushing line, since it is on an island between vehicular lanes.Or do they have stairs and over-walkways?
No, there are no over-walkways (or under walkways).
If I were the MTA, I'd look at this as a chance to grab somesstation rehab money.
Really? They rebuilt these stations twice over a twelve year period. First they gut rehabbed all the elevated stations between 103rd and 33rd. This caused cessation of express service for a 48 month period.
About a year after this project was completed, NYCT "noticed" that the viaduct section over Queens Blvd was rotting away. So lo and behold they rebuilt the entire viaduct in place - including the recently rehabbed stations. This caused cessation of express service for another 48 month period.
Of course, there were never any changes to the stations geometry. No new entrances - only the added ability to close some at night. Now, it is discovered that the surface traffic patterns on Queens Blvd may have changed substantially since 1916. Perhaps, it was not such a good idea to undergo two complete within the last 15 years without re-examining the basic station architecture. So, you are proposing to rebuild the stations a third time because the NYCT planners got it wrong twice. Ever visit the Tweed Courthouse, while you were at City Planning?
I don't think the express service was out as long as you indicate for the viaduct rehab.
-Hank
Along the area of Queens Blvd where the #7 runs, isn't there a light at every block, and too much traffic congestion for speeding to be a problem?
It's where the IND runs UNDER Queens Blvd, east of that point, where Larry is suggesting the overpass/underpass example and where QUeens Blvd has main & service roads. It's the main roads with the limited traffic lights, I think, that are the problem, but I don't live there, so I can only speculate.
--Mark
Along the area of Queens Blvd where the #7 runs, isn't there a light at every block, and too much traffic congestion for speeding to be a problem?
No, people have been killed between Roosevelt/Greenpoint and Thompson Aves. There's just more dodge 'em room because the roadway has more lanes.
No, there are FEWER lanes on the section west of Roosevelt Ave. THe problem there is the left lane, and people stepping off the curb no matter what.
-Hank
Each of the 4 roadways east of Roosevelt have only 3 lanes of traffic with traffic island dividers. The 2 roadways west of Roosevelt have 4 or 5 traffic lanes each and are wider. Just to make things interesting, the pedestrian also faces the prospect of being hit by an car looking for a parking space under the viaduct.
Bring back the M&Q - PRW and 2 man cars! :-)
(Ever visit the Tweed Courthouse, while you were at City Planning?)
Yep. Blame the historic preservation crazies for that debacle. It should have just been torn down and replaced.
Hey, I just got to the Transit Authority. Don't blame me for the failure to plan ahead 15 years ago. Anyway, after a week on the job, I'd say the TA is STILL better run than most of the city agencies I dealt with at DCP.
Hey, I just got to the Transit Authority. Don't blame me for the failure to plan ahead 15 years ago. Anyway, after a week on the job, I'd say the TA is STILL better run than most of the city agencies I dealt with at DCP.
Glad to hear it's going well; good luck, and congratulations on getting out of DCP! :) I guess this means you aren't going to have a hand in rewriting the zoning resolution :(.
(Glad to hear it's going well; good luck, and congratulations on getting out of DCP! :) I guess this means you aren't going to have a hand in rewriting the zoning resolution).
Unless you get a new Mayor actually interested in fixing things (ie. none of the four contenders) instead of cutting a few deals and avoiding controversy, those remaining at DCP aren't going to rewriting the zoning resolution either.
Morale is at an all time low. Since I was pretty much the economist there, a former co-worker e-mailed and asked what they would do without me. I replied that they would do the same thing they did with me -- nothing. I got fed up and left because Rose wouldn't be bothered trying to fix the business regulations. Now the residential bulk regulations are going down the tubes, alienating a different group of staff.
If Joe Rose was the Captain of a 19th Century sailing ship, he'd be walking the plank.
Can you cross Queens Boulevard in the subway, outside the fare paid area, at some/most/all stations on the QB [line]..
A local community paper reported that the Briarwood community is upset because NYCT recently remodeled the VanWyck (F) station and eliminated such a crossing. Moreover, this crossing had been used by school children going to school. Adult passengers are equally upset because they are now forced to cross Queens Blvd on their return journey home.
The TA remodelled the Herald Square station a couple of decades ago. It was possible to cross Herald Square underground, prior to this improvement. The new arrangement requires two token booths, instead of the single one for the old arrangement.
A local community paper reported that the Briarwood community is upset because NYCT recently remodeled the VanWyck (F) station and eliminated such a crossing. Moreover, this crossing had been used by school children going to school. Adult passengers are equally upset because they are now forced to cross Queens Blvd on their return journey home.
They did? Not as of yesterday morning. The passageway under Queens Blvd was temporarily closed off with a couple of 2x4s for a week or two for some inexplicable reason, but it was hardly a remodeling, and it's open again.
I stand corrected. I don't use that station very much and I was giving details from an article I'd read, without the source in front of me. Either I or the author neglected to remember the temporary nature of the closure.
They may have been planning on closing it, and to try it out they blocked it temporarily for a few days to see if anyone would notice. The sign saying it would reopen in X days did not appear until 2 days after the boards were put up.
Oh good! :-)
I find what they did at Briarwood-Van Wyck very annoying. I used to use the north side exit to get the Q20/44 to Flushing. What were they thinking?
Now if I don't want to take the 7 I get off at Forest Hills and take two buses to Flushing, the Q65A and Q20/44.
I always use the subways to cross (using my unlimited card if the fare array doesn't permit it), and I've written a couple of letters on the subject. I strongly feel that use of the subways should be encouraged for pedestrians, rather than installing signalized crosswalks that most pedestrians ignore anyway. Looking at the map in the Daily News "Boulevard of Death" feature, it amazed me to see how many casualties were around Yellowstone Blvd and 71 Ave, where there's subterranean alternative that generally has a good police presence.
I don't remember offhand which stations do not allow a free crossing (I think 67 & 75 Aves do not), but all stations have mezzanines, and the fare arrays could be rearranged to accommodate this. DOT could put up signage, run an ad campaign, and give the MTA a grant to do the reconfigurations, and it would be far less expensive than the useless "improvements" they are making.
Someone was hit by a Q10 last night, see Daily News story.
75th Ave does, I'm not sure about 67th
That way, "subway" would have the same meaning it has in England.
From the description of the accident, it doesn't sound like the 'Boulevard of Death' issue. The bus was making a right turn, and trhe driver failed to see the pedestrian. This happens dozens of times daily in the city.
-Hank
There may be a lot of accidents on Queens Blvd., but considering how really long that street is, is it really more than would be expected?
(There may be a lot of accidents on Queens Blvd., but considering how really long that street is, is it really more than would be expected?)
That's a good point. Awhile ago they were going off on Grand Army Plaza, the "Intersection of Death." But GAP is the intersection of SEVERAL major streets, not just two. If you divided GAPs accidents and deaths in half to account for the additional streets, would it really by that dangerous? How about if you adjusted for the volume of traffic?
The real "intersection of death" is the intersection of two narrow one way streets near my house. You've got parked cars at the corner and buildings up to the lot line, and you just can't see. But volume is low, so it doesn't show up in any statistics.
Sheer numbers are meaningless; in "rating" a location for how dangerous it is, it should always be done as reportable accidents as a fraction of total volume. But hard numbers look impressive in headlines.
There may be a lot of accidents on Queens Blvd., but considering how really long that street is, is it really more than would be expected?
Using that logic it is far safer to cross midblock. Proportionately more accidents occur in intersections than their linear dimension would indicate compared to the rest of the street.
Drivers in France have applied the same logic for years. They speed up when approaching an intersection so as to minimize the time spent in such a dangerous place.
>>>This happens dozens of times daily in the city. <<<
Dozens of busses hitting pedestrians daily, I don't think so.
If it happens that much, they're keeping secrets.
Peace,
ANDEE
I think the best solution is to build pedestrian overpasses at the most dangerous locations so this way no vehicle can hit a pedestrian on an overpass. This would quickly reduce the number of pedestrian accident on Queens Boulevard.
BMTJeff
But look at where the deaths occurred (sorry, the link doesn't have the graphic that appreared in the paper).
13: Yellowstone Blvd to 71 Rd - 71-Continental Ave subway station
12: 51 Ave to Broadway - Grand Ave subway station
5: 66 Ave to 67 Ave - 67 Ave subway station
4: Ascan Ave to 75 Ave - 75 Ave subway station
4: Hoffman Dr to 62 Ave - Woodhaven Blvd subway station
2: 63 Dr to 64 Rd - 63 Dr subway station
1 (yesterday): 80 Rd - Union Tpke subway station
The three at Hoover Ave, one at 86 Rd, and 11 west of Broadway: no subway stations,
A location is not available for 14 deaths in 1993
41 out of 56 accidents since 1993 occurred at locations where there already is a pedestrian underpass.
This suggests --
1. People are not aware they can use the subway without paying;
2. People are afraid to do so;
3. People don't want to climb stairs, or walk a block over to the entrance; or
4. People don't care.
People might care if the police start issuing jaywalking summonses.
BMTJeff
People won't go for a stand-alone overpass, because they'll be afraid of getting raped/mugged in an isolated spot.
In Arlington VA (Rosslyn), a "forward looking" 1960s plan had elevated pedestrian walkways, and office buildings were built with entrances and stores on the SECOND story. The ground floor was a wasteland of garage entrances, and the streets were built as speedways. Well, after an incident of two, people became afraid of the walkways, which were abandoned, and all the stores closed, leaving the place a service desert.
The SUBWAY, however, is active. I think people just don't think to use the subway to cross under. Perhaps the TA should make some sort of announcement. After all, even more people passing through the station will make it even more secure.
I plan to teach my kids to use the subway to walk under Prospect Park West, Prospect Park Southwest, and 9th Street once they are old enough to walk to school by themselves.
I plan to teach my kids to use the subway to walk under Prospect Park West, Prospect Park Southwest, and 9th Street once they are old enough to walk to school by themselves.
Excellent plan! Suggest it to your neighbors, too.
The police did that just last week; it apparently didn't do a damned thing.
>>>People might care if the police start issuing jaywalking summonses. <<<
Is the fine for jaywalking STILL that ridiculously low $2? If so they won't have much success.
Peace,
ANDEE
It's amazing how anyone would be silly enough to take a gamble jaywalking across Queens Blvd. It's like crossing a freeway!
Depends. If you're reasonably intelligent, you WAIT for the traffic to stop. The idiots getting themselves naturally selected don't wait for the traffic.
I almost hit someone a few days ago.
-Hank
maybe the new signs will help..
"A person was killed crossing here,
Use caution when crossing"
They need some of these signs at grade crossings :)
shawn.
I think the statistics and conclusion are misleading.
How far should we expect a pedestrian to go out of his way in order to have a vehicle-free crossing? Consider the Yellowstone Blv to 71st Rd sector. There are 3 entrances on each side of QB, centered at 71st Ave. A person wishing to cross at Yellowstone would be required to make almost a 1/4 mile (1162 ft according to DeLorme) detour for each crossing.
You must first establish a criterion regarding how long a detour must be in order to be a viable alternative. Then you must identify the individual entrances to discover which accidents occurred within their viable range. The statistics that you cited are not sufficiently precise as to location.
Manhattan's mid block crosswalks establish a 1 block detour or 1/20 mile. That might be a reasonable starting point for determining which accidents could be avoided by using the subway as a pedestrian underpass.
(Manhattan's mid block crosswalks establish a 1 block detour or 1/20 mile. That might be a reasonable starting point for determining which accidents could be avoided by using the subway as a pedestrian underpass.)
For Queens Blvd, perhaps a little longer detour is justified. After all, in addition to the danger crossing against the signal timing can take a while, especially if QB is so favored that you have to wait twice (once at an island) to get across. Some accidents may be caused by vehicles trying to beat the light. Others may be caused by pedestrians crossing against the light after having waited once already.
The linked article is precise on the locations. I wasn't conducting a precise study, only indicating that crossing by the subway could be an effective alternative if publicized, using a Daily News graphic and my own recollection of where stairways are located. I paid no attention to the arrangement of fare arrays, which may have prevented the use of the subway at certain locations.
You're assuming that one would walk to the center of the station to cross. The 71 Ave station has a stairway at 70 Rd, two blocks from Yellowstone Blvd; I believe 71 Ave itself is toward the eastern end of the station. Keep in mind that the IND tends to be overbuilt and the stations can extend for nearly a quarter mile themselves.
You're assuming that one would walk to the center of the station to cross. The 71 Ave station has a stairway at 70 Rd, two blocks from Yellowstone Blvd;
No I was using 70th Rd. I used to live in the area and am quite familiar with the terrain.
Keep in mind that the IND tends to be overbuilt and the stations can extend for nearly a quarter mile themselves.
There's a 9 foot drop in elevation between 71st Ave and Yellowstone (again thanks to DeLorme). So my guess is that the mezzanine level does not extend to Yellowstone.
An expensive proposition nowadays -- each overpass would have to have either elevators at each end or extremely long ramps with a minimal grade in order to comply with ADA requirements.
The NIMBYs would never allow that much concrete to take up space for the ramps on the sidewalks, so if they had to be build with dual elevators, I would probably put up a test overpass first to see what kind of usage it gets, before committing to a series of them along QB.
You're taking the statement too literally. That TYPE of accident, a vehicle turning into a crosswalk and striking a pedestrian, occurs frequently. Most of these type of accidents involve large vehicles such as buses and trucks, which have limited visibility from the drivers seat.
-Hank
No, but it's riding on the coattails of the Snews' "Boulevard of Death" hysteria (case in point: "An 83-year-old man was...mowed down by a bus"), even if the bus was going ~8mph at the time. It's one more statistic the advocacy groups can use to demand the installation of speed humps on Queens Blvd.
80 Rd is at the Union Turnpike station, and Queens Blvd is nearly impossible to cross there because someone has a green light. Granted, in this case, Mr. Eisenberg may have trouble with stairs, but by publicizing the use of subways "in the British sense," other accidents could certainly be prevented.
One interesting sidelight is that the Q10 route never touched Queens Blvd until quite recently. The terminal was moved from the Kew Gardens Rd to Queens Blvd. The route change lenthened the route slightly and meant the bus had to stop for at least two more traffic lights. Perhaps the NYCDOT traffic engineers will have a good explanation as to how this change promoted safety.
Please explain what this has to do with anything at all.
-Hank
Please explain what this has to do with anything at all.
One way of avoiding pedestrian deaths is to remove the possibility of vehicle/pedestrian interaction. Pedestrian overpasses, underpasses, etc. are one means to avoid such interaction. Not many are likely to be built at $1 to $2 million a pop.
Traffic patterns can also be designed to minimize such risk. The previous Q10 routing reduced traffic on heavily used Queens Blvd by keeping the bus off it. The Union Tpk station was designed to handle the Q10 bus at the Kew Gardens /80th Rd entrances. I'm wondering what the rationale of the NYCTDOT traffic engineers was in moving the stop. Anyone familiar with the area knows that the new terminal by Civic Virtue entrance is further away from the turnstiles than the old 80th Rd entrance. It also increased the bus trip by 2 or 3 minutes.
The people most at risk getting hit crossing Queens Blvd are the elderly, and the elderly have the most problems climbing steps and I doubt alot of them would (or could) go down and up a flight of steps just to cross the street.
and some are just afraid to go into the subway still..
I'm not suggesting that pedestrians should be prohibited from crossing Queens Blvd except by subway, and it is true that more than half of the fatalities since 1993 (not including the 14 with no information available) did involve a pedestrian over 60. Not that 8 out of 33 is statistically significant, but of the eight victims profiled in the Daily News article, four were crossing against the light, and two crossed midblock. The other two were stricken by drivers running red lights. Instead of punishing the drivers, publicizing the subterranean route and educating those who are unable or refuse to use the subway that crossing a 200' wide arterial against the light or midblock isn't wise would make the situation much safer.
Yeah I agree, I use the subway to cross a busy road or street. Even at Main street-Flushing I use it to get across Main street.
I think there should be more underpasses in the subway, it would serve a dual purpose.
I do the same at Friendship Heights here in DC. Other people do it too and it should be encouraged!
Rode Paris Metro in December. Seemed very clean and efficient. However, we noticed "scratchitti." What's with this? Is the RATP turning their backs on this a la the MTA?
It was also nice to see vending machines on the platforms. Who is old enough to remember gum machines that were on the station pillars?
Test/quiz:
There are three stations called Villejuif. Who else out there knows the translation, and if so, what is the origin of this and why does it exist today?
Just what is the standard method of treating scratchfitti? Is the window replaced, or can it be removed, annealed, and re-installed?
Mark Michalovic
Replacement.
Peace,
ANDEE
Once a window has been scratched, there's not much that can be done to get rid of the scratchfitti except to replace it. However, at least here in Chicago, the CTA has begun applying a clear, heavy-duty mylar coating to all the interior glass surfaces of its busses and trains. Once the mylar gets "tagged" by vandals, it is simply peeled off and replaced.
It's not a completely fail-safe option -- I've seen a few cases where a corner of the mylar was sticking out and somebody decides to peel it further -- but CTA windows do seem much cleaner now than they were a few years ago.
Another type of graffiti problem are so-called "throw-ups", little white nametag stickers with some illegible black markings stuck onto various surfaces. Maybe the CTA should go around with lit candles and apply a generous layer of wax to all exposed surfaces in order to keep anything from sticking.
I read an interesting book called Bomb the Suburbs by Upski which explores hip-hop and graffiti culture, particularly in Chicago. (The same author went on to publish another book called No More Prisons which has become an undergroud hit in many major cities. I just picked it up but haven't had a chance to read it yet.) Believe it or not, there actually is a certain "code of ethics" among the tagger community which considers scratchfitti, gang-symbol scrawls and throw-ups the lowest possible forms of graffiti, usually created by adolescent gangbanger wannabes as opposed to the people who are actually interested in graffiti as a true underground art form.
-- David
Chicago, IL
Speaking of this, is there any possibilty of using a harder plastic for train windows to prevent scratchitti?
"Jew-ville?" I assume these were the ghettoes?
According to the web site of Villejuif:
http://www.orbes.com/villejuif/villejuif-online-2000/historique/index.htm
L'origine du nom de Villejuif a soulevé des hypothèses toutes
controversées. Villa Judea, Villa Jude, Ville Judee, selon les cas ou la
graphie, Villa Julite en 1205, Villa Judoea ou Villa Julittoe, selon les
auteurs, sans oublier un Villa Gesedum proposé par l'abbé Lebeuf, le nom de
notre ville est finalement au XIIème siècle francisé en Villegie.
L'origine la plus probable est Villa Judea, qui ne signifierait nullement
Ville-aux-Juifs, mais plutôt Villa d'un gallo-romain nommé Juvius ou Juveus.
So, it comes from a Gallo-Roman named Juvius or Juveus
Maybe he had to do with another town nearby called "Juvisy"
Yahoo France somehow tells you otherwise:
Villejuif: Anciennement "Villa Judeae", terre des Juifs. (land of Jews)
The Paris Metro has had a graffiti problem over the past 5 years. A lot of scratchitti and marker shadows all over the equipment. Also the RER trains get hit even worse. Some rolling stock there actually have large exterior pieces of graffiti. Funny thing is that the first class cars get way more interior marker vandalism than the second class cars. Vandals ride in style eh? Though I believe the first/second class system was abandoned last year.
To make things worse, I've noticed that there are a lot of NYC graffiti vandals doing their work in Paris. Shows the world what a scumbucket city New York really is.
I was on the Q train yesterday, and I caught a train of R-32s on the Q line. Which line did those R-32s come from? What kind of cars will be used on the BMT Southern Division when the Manhattan Bridge switch sides in July 2001? How would you tell which Q is local and express?
The R32 train you saw comes from the Coney Island Yard. Usually it runs on the N line. Because of yard dispatchment or car maintenance, sometimes you may see some R32 trains on the Q. It is like seeing an R32 train on G line sometimes.
As for the Manny B switch this summer, Brighton local Q will be designated as circle Q; whereas Brighton express Q will be designated as diamond Q. As for car assignment, R40 and R68 are the possibilities. Let's wait and see as the things turn out.
Chaohwa
The fact that the front flip-dot signs of the R-32s cannot show squares or diamonds probably precludes them from being used on the Q when it moves to the BMT Broadway Line this summer.
--Mark
R32 on the Q, this should be added to the FAQ >G<
For the R-32s, it's like going home again. That's where they made their debut in 1964, much to the consternation of Brighton riders who loved their Triplexes and their crowd-swallowing capability.
Hey Steve,
We loved our Triplexes, and don't forget that other crowd swallower, the ABs, on the Brighton and other Southern Division lines!
We've got: Hot Lunch!
Since the side signs have the round bullet, they can be used on the local.
That's Rare to see a R-32 On The Q Line. Just as rare to see a R-32 Running The F Line. Maybe R-32's Might take over The Q Line One Day.
I've seen R32's on the Q, and also on the G. I have never, ever seen anything but R46s running on the F since I've been commuting on it. I think if anything else is caught running on the F, it is shot on sight.
:-) Andrew
R-32's used to run most of the time on the F Line Until 1995.
After 1995 R-32's Became Very Rare On The F Line. So It's very hard to find it on the F Line now in days.
The F is only R-46. Nothing else is EVER on the F (in recent years). The only other non-shuttle lines I can think of with a completely homogenous car allotment are the 1/9(which can only have 62/62as, nothing else can run there) and the D, and even the D will sometimes get R-68as (not much of a difference).
In my time here I've only seen one report of an R-32 on the F, and only one person saw it so it probably wasn't out for long (perhaps an emergency turned an E to an F).
Rare and incredibly hard to find are massive overstatements.
Can't redbirds run on the 1/9 if necessary? Or are they afraid they'll leave rust?
:) Andrew
Yes they can,but it doesnt matter because the redbirds will be phased out in a couple of years.
Yes, its possible. Even TA uses redbird on the #2, #4, #5, #6 and #7 lines. I pretty sure the TA did the same on the #1/9 line once in a while!
NOT ANY MORE. WHEN THE R-62A CARS WENT INTO SERVICE THEY HAD TO REILINE THE MOVING PLATFORMS AT SOUTH FERRY, BECAUSE THE DOORS ARE IN A DIFFERENT POSITION ON THE SIDE OF THE CAR. NOW ONLY THE R-62A CARS CAN MAKE A STOP AT SOUTH FERRY. ANY OTHER EQUIPTMENT CAN NO LONGER STOP AT SOUTH FERRY.
Wow ... I sit corrected, bro ... gotta hand it to the adminiswigs, ordering cars in a config that required so many changes. Did they have to do the same at 14th for the gap fillers there as well?
Myth. Any equipment can stop there. The positioning of the gap fillers, which are signifcantly larger than the door openings, depends on where the operator stops the train. I've posted previously that the doors are off by very little.
I've also been on a 1 train of Redbirds, when Conrail derailed that stack train on the Hudson line.
-Hank
I don't get that. There is mixed equippment on the 4/5 and they both stop at Union Square, and unless they have guys there realigning the gap fillers every 2 minutes, I think the 1/9 can go to South Ferry.
The Redbirds can run on the 1/9 line, but they can't stop at South Ferry because the doors don't align with the gap fillers there.
- Lyle Goldman
>>>The Redbirds can run on the 1/9 line, but they can't stop at South Ferry because the doors don't align with the gap fillers there.<<<
This is urban myth. The rust birds have no problem with the gap fillers at SF.
Peace,
ANDEE
The only difference between the Redbirds and the R-62s should be that the doors on each side of the car are off center alingment -- depending on what side of the car you're looking at, the other side would be front- or back-shifted slghtly, two allow two seats between the TOs cab and the door. But in terms of spacing between the doors, the distance between each door should be the same on the `Birds and on the R-62s.
A better comparison would be to go back to when the R-12, R-14 and R-15 cars were running on the main line, including the No. 1. Those doors are like the R-62s -- exactly opposite the ones on the other side of the car, but there was never and ban on running those cars through the South Ferry loop because their doors didn't align right.
It's the same reason why the `Birds, the R-62s and the R-142s can all live in harmony with the gap fillers on the local platform for the No. 4, 5 and 6 at Union Square downtown, since the gap fillers on the two platforms serve two different purposes -- the fillers on the No. 6 are for the cars' end doors, since the center of the cars tilt in on the curve with the ends further away, while the express platform's gap fillers at Union Square are for the center doors, because the car tilts away from the platform at its middle.
If you had a station where there was a station with moving platforms on both sides of the car and you had to open both sides, then you'd have a problem with the Redbirds and R-62s coexisting.
The door spacing isn't the same, but it's not significant enough that the cars can't use the same platform.
-Hank
You're right. Diagraming it out again, I come out with the difference being one seat length narrower between the end doors and the center door per car compared with the R-12/14/15s, since those cars only had one seat behind the TOs cab while the R-62s have two. The same would hold true with the current R-26 through 36 Redbirds, except the difference would be at the blind end, where there would be three seats on the R-62s instead of two.
And since that comes out (especially on the narrow-seated Kawasakis) to be about an 18-inch difference, there would be no problem between the two car classes.
maybe they don't like having screeching all over the place on the u-turn, like they do with the 5, on the inner loop, which seems to be enough for them
Huh? The redbirds PREMIERED on the broadway local and did BOTH sides of South Ferry, though the ones on the inner loop had all but the center doors cut out on the shuttle from Bowling Green. The redbirds went everywhere on the system though except for the third avenue el.
Four R-12s were modified for use on the Bowling Green shuttle, although they could have kept a museum train or two of Gibbs Hi-Vs running there.
That woulda been truly neat ... only problem is that while we love our antiques, the geese dis them as "garbage" ... as much as we love our V's, the geese thought them to be worse than plunging a toilet owing to their age. Gotta admit, there must be something fundamentally wrong with all of us ... but I for one revel in it. :)
Well, I guess I was wrong. I thought I remembered hearing on this very message board that there were incompatibilities. I could have sworn I read somewhere here that the two different classes of cars were incompatible at South Ferry Station, and they had to modify the gap fillers there so that the R-62A cars could run, and now Redbirds couldn't operate there any more. I don't know what I could have been thinking.
- Lyle Goldman
Since this question has been brought up, I thought it would be appropriate to bring this subject up again. Instead of immediatly scrapping all the rebirds, why not put them on the lines that are running the R62 fleet.
I understand that the R-62s may not need a big upgrade like the redbirds got in the 1980s, and that there have been small upgrades already. In addition, I know that eventually the buckling floors will contiunue to be replaced.
But more work can be done on these cars. With all the customer complaints about not hearing the t/o's announcements, why not upgrade the cars to have automated announcements and electronic destination signs? I realize this costs lots of money, but there cars are only just reaching their halfway point...they might as well be given some new technology.
Now would be the best time to do this, since all the redbirds are still around. Obviously, the redbirds life is limited....but an upgrade like this would certainly not take forever....the cars can hold up another year or two if necessary. So, in other words....do an important upgrade while extra equipment is around! -Nick
I REALLY don't want any more electronic destination signs. IMHO they would ruin one of my favorite car-types. If you're gonna put 'em somewhere, put 'em on the 68's.
:-) Andrew
We don't need electronic display signs. The only compromise I would make is a rolled route sign and a electronic destination. We need colored circles on the destination signs!
and get rid of the mirror like walls. they look horrible. put something in like on the R-142 but way more tasteful.
Woah, getting new walls would be very expensive, and not quite a s necessary. Electronic signs and automated announcements are at a high cost too, but they are eliminating the t/o's that mumble, plus all the signs will be in uniform with the destination, whcih the roll signs are not always. -Nick
true. it is more important. lately i have seen R-62's with missing or not working roll signs on the cars.
Want CORN with that, Andrew?
Above all, look into the overhead
beams in place north of 96th Street
which will explain why the redbird
foreheads can't make it by..
And yes, Virginia, Redbirds DID RUN
and STOP cleanly at South Ferry during
the September 2000 G/O which
sent the 2 down the Outer & Inner Loop.
The 2 didn't stop at South Ferry during the GO. And the redbirds CAN go north of 96th on the Broadway. Again, when the Hudson line was closed for a derailment, they ran additional 1/9 trains of redbirds. Additionally, all the yellowbirds are the same size.
-Hank
>> The 2 didn't stop at South Ferry during the GO.
Mine did.. at 12:45am.
The ban on redbirds on the #1 was lifted about 10 days ago. The ban only concerned the section between 145 St and Dyckman St.
That's a fine howdyadoo ... what happened to the cars? Did they raise the roof level? They used to run all the way from SF to 242 ...
Ya know, I have no idea. They created the ban on the redbirds on this section only about 6 months ago. Since I do not work the IRT (and never will again), I cannot get into specifics as to why the ban took place in the first place because I don't have a clue 'bout nuttin ova dere.
Heh. From the various comments about 96th, 145th and SF, I'm beginning to wonder if there's some vast right wing conspiracy against the rustbirds ... some kinda cosmic ferrous wheel ...
BOOOO!!!! HISSSSS!!!!
-Hank :)
Me sorry ... from now on, will include digital "barum-pum" ...
Propably clearence-checking the new tunnel lighting equipment.
-Hank
As I recall there was a clearence problem on one stretch of the 1/9 lines which prevented them from running the redbirds. I think it had something to do with the tunnel lights getting in the way of something but I think that problem may have been taken care of.
BMTJeff
The E has been running with a mix of R32 trains and R-46 trains (more of the former). I guess it owed the F a favor! :0)
"The F is only R-46. Nothing else is EVER on the F (in recent years)"
You're right about recent years. On Sept.18,1987, I photographed R-68's on the (F). Not a shop move or reroute, they were correctly signed. #2610 was the south motor in my photos. Maybe someone could explain why they ran there, although briefly.
Bill "Newkirk"
I gotta see this!!
Its Possible. Q line uses the all R68A and B uses R40 in 1995
The is also homogeneously R-62A because of the need to run 9 cars because of the lack of capacity in most of 148th St yard's tracks to hold 10 car trains. (married pair cars would have to be 8 cars or less)
Just before the last major northside manhattan bridge work(1995-6)i saw 3 or 4 R32 Fs
What about the N and R
Since there is one R32 on the Q Line, have you noticed that it's been easier to find R40s on the N Line. I also noticed that R40s are all broken up at Coney Island Yard. They have they trucks nice and shiny in black. I believe it's the R40s 12-Year SMS time.
E I think
...that train of R32's was still on the Q today - I rode it from b'way and layfette(SP?) up to 34th around 4:30ish/5... it was a very smooth ride between 4th & 34th.
-Joe
Any R32 found on the "Q" would have had to have come from the "N".
wayne
Yesterday the BMTman asked if I had received my copy of Mass Transit, a bi-monthly trade publication. This AM there was my copy.
Transit Transit's own Charles Seaton has written a nice article with some great shots of the two train sets. The intro parr states that the players had six months to do what the TA had to do in 4 days, i.e. get ready for the series. He means wrapping the cars.
This publication has gotten much better at minimizing the articles that are all fluff & pats on the back ... Mr. Seaton's article is a enjoyable read, so here's a big SHOUT OUT to him.
Mr t__:^)
Today's Times (p. B8) states a tenant group at 10 Stanton St. (lower e. side), a 300 tenant apt. bldg., is challenging the TA's plan to modernize a huge subway tunnel fan east of the bldg.
1. Which fan would this be? What line?
2. It really frosts me when people move into an area that has some arguably objectionable facility that has been there long before any of them were around, and protests its existence. That fan has been there 50 years, the article states. None of the tenants were there 50 years ago. They moved in with full knowledge of the fan. Not to mention the safety need to fan out smoke in case of a fire. Sheesh!
But they're not objecting to it in it's current state.
Peace,
ANDEE
These people have the NIMBY attitude. If the T/A is going to place a fan there the people will try to find a way to object to it. People would find a way to object to anything if they could just because they don't want it there.
BMTJeff
It is certainly possible that some people aren't even aware of its existence. Some ventilation shafts are disguised as brownstones or other things that blend in with the neighborhood. Perhaps this is the case here?
--Mark
The case here is that it's the same area where a similar project caused a building collapse.
They don't object to the project itself, just the part that MAY encroach on the foundation of their building, causing a structural issue.
-Hank
I think their objection is not to the fan's current operation or location, but to the TA's plan to raze their building in order to upgrade. Essentially, the TA had to choose between a project that would encroach on the park across the street or a project that would require demolishing an apartment building--thus putting a couple hundred people out of their homes. The park won.
The MTA wants to use it's eminent domain powers to seize a nine-story apartment building. Now here's the best part. The MTA claims it can't use Sara Roosevelt Park across the street because a federal law prevents from cutting down the "mature trees" in the park. Can this insanity be true?
Smells like political sausage crafting to me ... and without a peddler license.
Funny that I haven't seen any info on this. The stories I've read all suggest that the objection is over digging near the foundation of a building. The building dwellers are afraid (and rightfully so) of structural damage to their building.
-Hank
Your observations lead me to believe that the original dispute has been blown out of proportion (as usual) by people who weren't there, don't know what they're talking about, and may or may not have an axe to grind.
Still, I hope the dispute is resolved equitably. The property owners probably have legitimate concerns, and the MTA needs to address them appropriately when it plans and implements this project. Unfortunately, communication has not always been the TA's strong suite.
The MTA claims it can't use Sara Roosevelt Park across the street because a federal law prevents them from cutting down the "mature trees" in the park. Can this insanity be true?
Yes, it is... passed, IIRC, during the first year of the Clinton administration... championed by Al Gore.
There are two sides to this discussion. One is that we have a need to preserve trees and open space in an urban environment. Imagine a city with no parks, no flowers, no trees, just block after block after block of buildings. Depressing, to say the least - you'd go crazy in a hurry. Parks and the like are essential to the mental health of the citizens.
The other side is the need to replace or improve the ventilation system in the subway tunnel at that location. Regardless of where or how it is done, there will be disruption. I think it would be a safe bet to say that some of the residents who are upset about their building being affected (and I don't know how it is being affected - I haven't seen the article and this thread conflicts on the actual impact) would be just as upset about the park being torn up, even if it is only temporary.
I don't know what the proper solution to the problem is. If the ventilation system can be upgraded without a direct effect on the apartment building (and that presumes the city will do a proper engineering job so that no foundation damage occurs) or the park then that is the approach that should be taken. Otherwise, my opinion in this case, based on the facts available to me, is that preserving the park should take priority. Taking down the apartment building isn't a wonderful choice either, but I think it's the better one.
And, by the way, that doesn't change my opinion of the "mature tree" law - I still think it's stupid.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Whether or not I agree with your specific conclusions or your opinions, I like your analysis! Very thoughtful and well-written.
I hope this gets settled constructively (oops, there's a pun).
FDNY Manhattan is reporting a 'man under' incident at the 14th St/8th Ave local station (southbound).
-Hank
Saw a C going S/B on the local at the 34th street station at around 1:30pm.
Saw a C going S/B on the 6th ave local at the 34th street station at around 1:30pm.
FDNY Manhattan is reporting a 'man under' incident at the 14th St/8th Ave local station (southbound).
New report (from EMS) has it as a southbound E train, midway down the platform.
-Hank
Final report says DOA.
-Hank
EMS talk I think it is a 10-83 or 10-90/3? Don't have my cheat sheet.
I don't have the frequencies, nor do I have the new FDNY or NYPD ones...
-Hank
Around 1966 or 67 there was a water main break somewhere in the vicinity of Pacific Street which flooded the station and caused service distruptions and a horrible stench in the station for what seemed like years to come.
Anyone out there recall this event and more details? Thanks!
I heard about it a while ago, and I am interested in knowing about it. What is the plan? When, if confirmed or accepted, will it happen? I feel that it is great due to the fact that the famous 42nd Street is also the often-congested 42nd Street. The flocks of M42's and M104's that chug along with the taxis and coach buses contribute to the degrading air quality in the region. In other words, there is too much diesel exhaust from dragging buses and cars. Light Rail may be the only clean-air solution for the long run. Well, that's my opinion, anyway. Talk with me at carlwal@hotmail.com. I'd always like to hear your comments.
See this thread, started 1/9/01 and still going.
If you want clean air, use a trolleybus which can change lanes, light rail is too inflexible.
Then again, so is a trolleybus. Most pollution isn't caused by busses, but if you feel that busses must be persecuted, then fine, use diesel hybrids and to a more limited extent, Compressed natural gas.
BTW, I heard that a CNG engine works just like a diesel engine. Is the intake valve in each cylinder the same too? What about the air jet(or whatever it's called that adds air to the cylinder to stimulate combustion)?
Depends on if it's 2 stroke, 4 stroike, spark ignition, or compression ignition.
The old EMDs use 2 stroke compression ignition. No inteake valves, just a port at the bottom of the cylinder. My Harley, like most cars, is 4 stroke, spark ignition. Buses are most likely compression ignition if diesel, and could be either 2 or 4 stroke. I don't know about CNG, but I'm guessing it's 4 stroke, spark ignition.
This is all really complicated when you start getting into the nitty gritty. Try a local library that has a good engineering section. It gets real interesting REAL fast. Some of it (combustion chamber design), is barely a science, more like and art...
Here are some things people should know about "trolley buses".
First, an electric bus has only a fraction of the passenger carrying capacity of a comparable light rail car.
Second, an electric bus has the same poor acceleration and braking characteristics of a conventional bus. Neither compares to even a humble PCC trolley car.
Third, contrary to popular belief, an electric bus cannot swing out far enough from its wires to do a lane change.
Fourth, if you have ever seen an electric bus installation, the wires are amazingly visually obtrusive. Light rail trolley wires are a godsend compared to electric bus wires.
Fifth, an electric bus has the a life span almost as short as a conventional bus, under 15 years. A light rail car lasts from 40 to 100 years, such as 50 year old PCC's now overhauled and running in San Franciso and Kenosha.
Sixth, an electric bus uses up more electric power than a light rail car. In fact, an electric bus costs much more to operate than any other type of street running transit vehicle (except for natural gas buses), and requires many more support personnel, as they are breakdown prone. In other words, an electric bus combines all of the weak points of a light rail car and a conventional bus, but has none of the clear cut advantages of either.
Seventh, people dont like to ride electric buses. When Muni replaced the electric buses on the "F" line with PCC trolleys not too long ago, the ridership of the line doubled immediately.
As for natural gas powered buses, it should be noted that while they may burn fuel somewhat cleaner than a diesel power bus, they produce just as much Carbon Dioxide as a diesel bus. Carbon Dioxide is one of the most offensive of all the Greehouse Effect Gasses. Natural gas buses actually use more fuel than a diesel bus, because they weigh much more.
And we're blessed with mostly CNG buses here in Nassau county.
Tell your elected officials about the Carbon Dioxide, and that you want light rail instead ! The CNG buses are a hoax on the public.
Tell your elected officials about the Carbon Dioxide, and that you want light rail instead ! The CNG buses are a hoax on the public.
Maybe they should save some money and build a giant toilet to flush all of the rest of their money. All of the rest of their NEAR-BANKRUPCY money.
"The CNG buses are a hoax on the public."
Well, let's not get irrational about this. They are not a hoax, but also not a panacea.
CNG-powered buses get slightly less gas mileage than buses powered with #2 diesel. They emit no particulate matter (soot) nor nitrous oxides, nor sulfur. So they do not contribute to respiratory problems, a significant benefit anywhere that you have large numbers of people with obstructive lung disease, asthma, etc. They do emit CO2, a greenhouse gas. Also, lines requiring large coaches will not employ a CNG bus because of capacity (for example, the articulated buses are all diesel powered).
I am a bit skeptical about the benefits of light rail in Manhattan. And if anything should be built, it should be built on an important street with no current east-west subway service (for example, 34th St). There is more than enough transit capacity under 42nd St right now.
Bus lines operating normal-size passenger coaches, like Orions, would benefit from a switchover to CG buses, assuming the depots can be arranged. MTA will have to consider its cost-effectiveness...
Last week, I happened to see a presentation on the revived plan for light rail on 42nd Street. They have modified the route to a "loop" that would inlcude 42nd Street, go down the west side to service the convention center, then across 34th street to the east side, and then back to 42nd street via the east side.
That sounds a lot better.
[They emit no particulate matter ]
What I've read they emit smaller particles allegedly considered more carcinogenic than that emitted by diesel powered vechicles.
Arti
{smaller particular matter}
Can you recall where you read the thing about the smaller paricular matter?
Thanks,
bob d.
I don't remember exactly but probably either News or Post. Did some Google search and found this:
http://www.pcac.org/reports/press/press313.htm
I bet the newspaper article was inspired by that.
Arti
That link you gave doesn't sound very credible. It doesn't give any specific numbers or how the results were obtained.
That was what I was able to quickly find searching the Web. There's probably some more detailed information out there.
Arti
I understand. You could be right, I just never heard anything like this before.
What particles are we talking about - and who wrote the article?
I don't remember, see my response to Bob D.
Arti
I am a bit skeptical about the benefits of light rail in Manhattan. And if anything should be built, it should be built on an important street with no current east-west subway service (for example, 34th
St). There is more than enough transit capacity under 42nd St right now.
That's really the only issue. No matter how advanced the vehicles may be, any sort of surface-running, non-grade-separated transit on 42nd Street, or indeed almost any street in Midtown, is going to be hopelessly slow.
Altanta has the country's 3rd largest fleet of CNG buses. When I wait at a bus station and a diesel bus leaves, the whole station is filled with exhust and it's hard to breathe. When a CNG bus leaves, I can still breathe normally. While I don't know anything about mircoparticles that are more dangerous than diesel soot, based on my experince, CNG is cleaner. Natural gas reacts with oxygen to form only water and CO2. I would rather have an engine that emits more CO2 than CO or NOx, plants can absorb CO2. The other two are the ones to worry about.
Natural gas reacts with oxygen to form only water and CO2.
Do CNG buses carry their own oxygen or do the use air. If the latter, then various nitrogen oxides are also possible. Also, what about incomplete combustion - especially with a diesel. There will be carbon particles released.
CNG buses oxidize their fuel in air, which all of us know is mostly nitrogen. Refresh my memory: any nitrogen in gasoline or diesel fuel?
Refresh my memory: any nitrogen in gasoline or diesel fuel?
No
If there is no nitrogen in any of the common petro-based fuels, how do you control NOx emissions?
Pump the nitrous into the bus? You won't have passengers complaining at least.
Then you could call your rolling stock "laughing-stock" - hah!
The Nitrogen comes from the air, which is mostly nitrogen.
That's why I asked how you control NOx emissions?
[Bus lines operating normal-size passenger coaches, like Orions, would benefit from a switchover to CG buses, assuming the depots can be arranged. MTA will have to consider its cost-effectiveness...]
Asked and answered ... the TA decided NOT to invest in any more CNG technology, the two (I think) depots they have is all there is going to be ... cost of building a new depot & pumping station.
They are hot on "clean diesel" right now.
Mr t__:^)
And the hy-bred bus that runs a small diesel engine at a constant rate to charge batteries. I though they were going to push that program instead of the CNG.
(Tell your elected officials about the Carbon Dioxide, and that you want light rail instead ! The CNG buses are a hoax on the public.)
Bob, this is an electric rail board, but let's not exaggerate. Most of the growth in electricity production is based on burning natural gas as well. Nuclear is out. Environmentalists don't want more dams. There is no way that wind and solar can produce all the power we now consume, under current technology.
The question is, which throws more gas into the atnosphere, burning to produce electricity and using the electricity to run a trolley, or burning it in a bus? Carbon dioxide is a global problem. It doesn't hurt people locally the way diesel does. It also causes the same global problem if produced in a power plant far away as it does when burned in a bus close by.
Light rail only works in lightly traveled areas, on its own grade-separated ROW, or when given absolute signal priority. I'd rather see the Flushing Line extended west, and the Shuttle extended east. The cost would be higher, but the return -- how long it would take to move crosstown -- would be much, much greater.
If you gave 42nd St. 2 to 1 signal priority over the avenues to make light rail move, you'd lock the grid, trapping north-south buses, delivery vehicles, and ambulances as well as SOVs. Or is that the idea?
Nuclear is currently politically incorrect. Change political conditions and it can be in again (not easy to do, granted).
NO! storage of spent fuel is not an issue of PC. Sometimes physics trumps dreams. The fission products are WAY beyond current technology's ability to mitigate. AND even dreaming of non-corrupt construction (not bloody likely) the operating entities have shown time and again a 'corporate cultural incompetence' which I for one do not wish to see in charge of something so massively more dangerous.
As to other generation means, it is inherebtly easier to police ten large generating plants than several thousand buses, trucks, or small generators useing thesame fuel. We do have major untapped wind power available, AND we are going to need to be lest profligate--got to go cycle the solar hot water heater.
I'm sorry, Dave, but somebody's been hoodwinking you. Out of 94 quads of power produced in the US today, only 1 is generated by wind/solar. If anybody tells you that wind solar can be scaled up to handle a lot more than that, ask them if they're running a two-for-one special on the Brooklyn Bridge too (or the lower deck of the George Washington, if somebody already bought the Brooklyn Bridge).
Wind and solar are great, and we are using them.
Nuclear waste is being handled successfully in Europe and Asia, and we have reasonable, workable methods now - methods which will only get better with time, so it really is a political question, not a technical one. There is very little true scientific controversy over the issue, except for a few discredited individuals...
By the way, there are recycling methods available now for spent waste which involve no plutonium generation - that wasn't available 10 or 15 years ago...
As for reactor technology, in the US and France, nuclear units perform better, more safely, more reliably than any fossil fuel plant or cogeneration plant. Average availability, power factors and occupational safety records are higher at plants opened in the 1980's than any other form of electricity generation.
This does not mean that we have a panacea here. Everything in its place, and a healthy respect for it are in order.
Toss out the political advertisement jingos in your last posting, and let's get on to serious discussion on the topic - electricity is clean and vital and versatile, and we need to generate it in ways that are economically and environmentally viable. Lots of different technologies have something to offer...
By the way, there are recycling methods available now for spent waste which involve no plutonium generation - that wasn't available 10 or 15 years ago...
Could you re-state this please? Plutonium is not generated by recycling methods; it's a fission product.
Breeder reactors were experimented with to increase the efficiency of the use of uranium ore. These burned plutonium. Reprocessing of nuclear fuel in older metods involved the use and or production of plutonium. Newer methods now being demonstrated do not.
The NRC website may have some links to this, also the DOE website. I'll see what I can dig up in recent research publications from ANS.
I found a rather non-technical description of the formation of plutonium as a by-product of uranium fission on a Google search of "uranium plutonium reactor". U-238 becomes Pu-239 by neutron capture and double beta elimination. The Pu-239 is also fissile and produces a lot of the energy, but some becomes Pu-240 by neutron capture, and this hangs around.
Unfortunately, nuclear power is not economically viable without a de-facto subsidy. The reason can be summed up in one word -- Chernobyl.
All business activity entails a risk of harming others, a risk that can be insured against. That risk doesn't just include the probability of an accident, it includes the consequences of that accident. The odds of another Chernobyl are very low, especially in the U.S. But the consequences are so severe that no one private party would ever agree to insure against the harm caused by a meltdown.
Therefore, nuclear power is only viable if the population of a wide area around a plant agrees to bear the risk with no possibility of compensation, of the legal system provides blanket absolution or limits on compensation.
In fairness, there are legal limits on compensation in the event of a airplane crash. One could argue that the airline industry wouldn't be viable either if it weren't for those limits.
Using Chernobyl as a guide, now that we know the consequences, would any community in the potentially affected area agree to host a plant? If not, we are talking about ramming one down their throat.
As for solar and wind, who knows? Perhaps they could rise from one percent to 50 percent, with solar panels on every roof. But it aint 100 percent.
Using Chernobyl as a guide, now that we know the consequences, would any community in the potentially affected area agree to host a plant? If not, we are talking about ramming one down their throat.
Because they're IDIOTS.
Chernobyl cannot and should not be used as a guide for any nuclear accidents in the United States. There are a lot of dumb things the Soviets did that would never be done in the United States. First, nobody in the US, at least at this point would DELIBERATELY turn off all of the safety features as a test without turning off the reactor. At least Three Mile Island was just caused by a lack of training.
And there's always the biggest part of the Chernobyl accident, the reactor wasn't enclosed in concrete. Even if a Chernobyl scale accident occured in the United States, the concrete would prevent much of the radiation from escaping.
There are obviously concerns for nuclear power, but anybody who bases their concerns on Nuclear safety in the US on Chernobyl needs to have their head examined.
Pork,
Your technical points are absolutely correct. In fact, the accident at Chernobyl happened because the crew was running an unauthorized experiment and purposely shut down all the safety systems to do it. This was a criminal act with no parallel in the US. If they had not disables the "safety," some of the damage and loss of life might have been prevented. I agree with your general conclusions.
Having said that, don't you think it might be better to be more respectful in tone to people who voice opposing opinions? They'll tend to listen to you more...
Ron, please don't try to get Pork to tone it down. I'm sure you're right about more people listening when one stops yelling, but reading his diatribes is almost as much fun as watching Peter and Larry go at it. He's obviously smart and knows his stuff. If he's a little rough around the edges, it's probably because he's still -- dare I say it -- YOUNG. If he doesn't provoke someone into coming at him with an axe, he'll grow out of it.
OK, OK, I see your point. :0)
If he's a little rough around the edges, it's probably because he's still -- dare I say it -- YOUNG.
I don't find that offending, so I won't yell at you.
If he doesn't provoke someone into coming at him with an axe, he'll grow out of it.
I intend to get around in a pope mobile for the rest of my life. :-)
Pork,
Whatever you do, be true to yourself. Being Pork (and whatever your real name is) is pretty good. I'm impressed with a lot of your posts here, actually. It's obvious you have a lot between the ears.
A lot of things get rammed down society's throat Larry, and this is very far down the list of things I would worry about. Much worse things are being jammed up our other orifice, and we choose not to notice...
In your new job yet (and off the antacids)?
The problem with nuclear power in the U.S. right now is because of Three Mile Island (more than Chernobyl) safety standards, insurance costs, etc., were raised to the point that the consturction related costs outweighed whatever profits the electric companies could hope to gain from the plant over its 30-40 year life span.
Palo Verde, in the desert 40 miles west of Phoenix, was the last U.S. nuclear plant to come on line about a decade ago. Its planning started before Three-Mile, and thanks to the safety adjustement and corresponding delays associated with the changes, the plant managed to bankrupt one of its backers (El Paso Electric) and put a crimp in the finncial ratings of most of the others.
Right now, nuclear power is in the same boat, only worse, as drilling for oil and gas in the Alaska Wildlife Refuge -- most of the public is against it and will continue that way until the cost of power gets high enough, or the inconvienence of possibly doing without electricity or gasoline at times, causes enough people to chnage their minds. (Higher future power costs would also make it more likely the utilites would see returns on new plants, though even if people do change their minds, places like Palo Verde would still be the only areas they could probably be located)
Your financial analysis, is , unfortunately for us, reasonable. I for one would not mind living near a nuclear plant, esp. if I know I can breathe clean air and enjoy the electricity therefrom.
We live with an innumerate public - and the consequences therefrom...
We live with an innumerate public - and the consequences therefrom...
Once upon a time, there were textile mills on the banks of the Blackstone River. Accordingly, the river stank. I asked my father why "they" let the mills dump their chemical waste into the river. He said that it would cost too much to run the mills if they couldn't dump their waste into the river.
The problem is not merely that the public is innumerate. It's much worse than that. The public is also more than slightly distrustful of all forms of authority -- including business owners who claim that their products are safe and that their facilities don't endanger the environment. If one lacks the ability to deal with scientific concepts and has no faith in those who are capable, is not the Luddite approach the most prudent?
Not really. Luddites are just as likely (if not more so) to shorten their own lives by resisting scientific advances...
It's a tough world out there. Knowledge is power, and lots of homework is the only way to obtain it.
We live with an innumerate public - and the consequences therefrom.
Knowledge is power, and lots of homework is the only way to obtain it.
As you have pointed out, knowledge is one of the ways to power but an ignorant majority rules. They would rather take astrology 101 and poison themselves with the "food supplements" to which a corrupt Congress has exposed a credulous public.
Funny how two statements can be mutually inconsistent although each is true.
Unfortunately, you're dead right about food supplements. You can thank Orrin Hatch (R-Utah) for that.
That sounds about right...
>>>Nuclear waste is being handled successfully in Europe and Asia, and we have reasonable, workable methods now - methods
which will only get better with time, so it really is a political question, not a technical one. There is very little true scientific
controversy over the issue, except for a few discredited individuals...
Ron: How about Yucca (?) Mountain, a very large waste site proposal that was vastly controversial for a number of reasons, including a water table that (despite being in the deserts) was still considered too high? Ron, I could be wrong about the name of this site, as the site I am mentioning is a very long-standing and controversial waste site.
Ron, could you describe these "reasonable, workable methods" that are present "now". I am not aware of any current method that can ensure security for the literally millions of years that fission waste materials remain radioactive. I am willing to listen to reasonable argumentation, though.
-cordially,
turnstiles
We don't have perfect methods. We have workable methods. In fact, methods that involve monitoring and other somewhat reversible (like the pilot plants DOE wanted) are good because in 100 years, technology will be advanced again over now and we can apply it. Yucca Mountain is such an incredible political football that a reasoned discussion of it in Congress has been difficult. It is more about a Western state feeling put upon by the feds than anything else. Much of Nevada is claimed by the feds as a military training area (Top Gun at Nellis, for example)and if you subtract those, the national parks and other places, you have proportionally less for the state and influential private landowners. The Yucca Mountain dispute was a chance for Nevada to screw the feds back, and they took it!
We have workable methods.
Are you talking about entombing waste in salt formations? Like the one that some utility was using as a natural gas tank until it developed a leak, causing certain difficulties in the local area? If so, that's not very reassuring.
You're not creating a valid comparison here. Vitrification of waste (creation of glass beads) and entombment in geologically stable formation has been proposed, yes.
Spent nuclear fuel from commercial reactors is stored in casks which have been proven to take enormous abuse. Sandia Labs' casks, for instance, can withstand a collision at greater than 70 mph, a drop from 100 feet in the air, a collision with a locomotive at 80 mph, and (in addition) engulfment in a jet fuel fire for 90 minutes with no leak whatsoever.
Permanent disposal (which the feds have actually contracted to do) needs to begin with a pilot plant to demonstrate the monitoring ability as well as the behavior of the site over several years.
We need to do this anyway because the largest contributor of nuclear waste is medicine, and without committing to working out the waste disposal plans you can kiss a lot of cancer treatments, life-saving diagnostic procedures, and bench research goodbye.
The objections which center around what happens to the waste in 10,000 years are nonsensical, because we can fully expect newer disposal methods in 5, 10, 20 years and a workable plan (like apilot plant) should allow us to apply these methods.
I was under the impression that nuclear medicine produces waste with much lower levels of radioactivity than do nuclear power and nuclear weapons. Am I wrong?
Either way, the existence of a need to find a satisfactory way to "dispose" of medical waste does not imply that we already have one, much less a satisfactory way to "dispose" of spent nuclear power fuel rods, not to mention everything else in a nuclear power plant that becomes radioactive due to irradiation over the useful life of such a plant. What is appropriate for one kind of waste may not be for another. Nor, for that matter, is it universally true that we find everything we need. (I agree that it is usually true, and we certainly should look very hard.)
I take it that the casks you mention are the "disposal" method you referenced a few posts ago. Given the bad experiences we have had in this country in the area of nuclear materials storage, I am skeptical of all claims of the long-term safety of any storage method. It is too easy to imagine a businessman cutting corners to save a few (million) bucks today when he knows that his grandchildren will be in their graves long before the s*** hits the fan. The same goes for politicians and bureaucrats. It's happened before and will happen again. All things considered, I would be much happier with a program of reprocessing and reusing nuclear fuel and warhead fissionables, if one could be developed which was both secure and did not involve the creation/concentration of weapons grade fissionables.
While I am not unalterably opposed to nuclear power and do recognize that the alternatives also have negative impacts, given the history of dishonesty on the part of both the government and industry with regard to nuclear matters (and a few other things), the question remains: "They lied before; why should we believe them now?"
It sounds like you are getting information from people who specialize in telling you about how the nuclear industry is lying to everyone. There are folks who have based their entire careers on doing that.
1. We have not had any bad experiences with commercial nuclear waste in this country. It's convenient for people to lie about that. The government's nuclear weapons program (e.g. Hanford, WA)has been a mess in terms of environmental protection, but the same is not true of the commercial reactor program, nor of the Navy's reactor propulsion program.
2. Nuclear waste is classified largely by the half-lives of the radionuclides and the kinds of radiation given off. Thus, completely separating medical/scientific nuclear waste from reactor waste misses the point, and often feeds into the political antinuke BS offered by politicians and activists who put bread and butter on the table doing this.
II am an MD who took a reactor operations course in college (ran a small research reactor used to train physicists, engineers and chemists). It was the hardest class I ever took in college. The demands on me were high, expectations were high and the amount of homework was enormous. I also witnessed an NRC inspection. I have a healthy respect for anyone who pursues a technical career in this field, adheres to the pursuit of science and strives to make the world a little better with it.
The "businessmen, bureaucrats" and others you so cavalierly dismiss have made enormous contributions to society and to our standard of living and our options to succeed economically and protect the environment. Why don't you read up on a few of them: Start with Shirley Ann Jackson, for example (you won't find her in biography.com); Hyman Rickover; George Apostolakis. Then re-examine some of your attitudes.
>>> The "businessmen, bureaucrats" and others you so cavalierly dismiss have made enormous contributions to society and to our standard of living and our options to succeed economically and protect the environment. Why don't you read up on a few of them: Start with Shirley Ann Jackson, for example (you won't find her in biography.com); Hyman Rickover; George Apostolakis. Then re-examine some of your attitudes. <<<
Pointing out examples of highly ethical people does not protect us from the others. Consider the Ford executives who were aware of the problems with Pinto fuel tanks but made the decision that paying for a few deaths would be cheaper than correcting the problem. The Firestone Tire executives who made no effort to recall defective tires until bad publicity forced them to. Cigarette manufacturers in general.
Even is 99.9% of all those dealing with nuclear power are excellent cautious individuals, we still have to fear that Homer Simpson, or worse yet his boss, is out there somewhere.
Tom
I don't share your attitude, primarily because there's litle documented evidence to support it, beyond a few poorly researched stories in newspapers (oh yeah and Homer Simpson, which in part reflected the artist's profound ignorance- not something to be proud of).. And if I did, I would be far more worried about those kinds of people in other industries - industries which statistically pose hazards far beyond what this industry does and do not face unethical fear-mongers which encourage the molehill-to-mountain misunderstanding that becomes all too common here.
Is it your opinion, then, that Shoreham should have been completed and brought on line?
Frankly, yes. Stone and Webster Engineering Corp. did a really outstanding job building the plant, and they applied lessons learned at other sites.
Shoreham, though, was convenient political fodder (and very easy to use to divert from other issues) for county executives who needed to look like they were protecting the public from something and make sure very vocal activists didn't oppose their reelection. I mean, budgets and crime and health care for poor people and abortion are tough issues where you can really slip up no matter what you say. This was easy.
Great trick - Leopoldo Galtieri faced down a poor economy in Argentina by rallying his people against the Brits and invading the Falklands Islands in 1981. It took people's minds off real problems for a while and made him popular (but then compounded his problems when the British army kicked his troops out of the Falklands).
Have you seen how many hillsides in CA have to be used to produce any significant power from wind? Nuclear fission isn't bad, RoninBayside pointed out some things about them. What we really need is nuclear fusion. They've been working on that for awhile, anyone know how close we are from having fusion commercially availible?
Nuclear fusion is not yet a net power generator, but they're getting close. I believe Caltech and the University of California have demonstrated events pretty close to energy-neutral (ie breakeven point). A lot of issues remain, including the demonstration of a sustauined reaction in a context that is commercially feasible. Recent govt. cutbacks in research facilities has hurt the effort.
Check out the US Dept. of Energy website for more info.
Nuclear fusion is not yet a net power generator, but they're getting close. I believe Caltech and the University of California have demonstrated events pretty close to energy-neutral (ie breakeven point).
Princeton has, too.
Yes, thank you.
Would you care to give odds on the construction and operation of a commercial fusion-powered electrical generating facility within the next 20 years?
Assuming that the technology to create such a device becomes available, do you have any idea what the most likely failure modes of such a device would be?
Relatively low, because the energy-neutral point has not been consistently crossed yet, because commercially viable technologies are not here yet, and because the govt. has cut funding recently for this (we'll see what the Bush Admin. does). But I could be wrong. A breakthrough in material science could provide the answer.
As you are no doubt aware, the fact that something can be done in a govt or university lab does not make it economically feasible - yet.
As to failure modes - well you need to be able to sustain a fusion reaction. We know how to do that in an uncontrolled (by us, that is) manner. That's called a hydrogen bomb. We don't know yet how to consistently do it in a controlled manner. I believe one of the failure modes will be related to the means of reaching sustaining energy levels...
Since I don't do this professionally, I encourage you to go to the Univ. of Calif. website to check out their presentations. Also, specifically look up Tokamaks (one method of controlled fusion).
Thanks for the lead.
Thanks for the lead.
fusion when it becomes reliable maybe quite wonderful. MEANWHILE, the wind is relatively free, and ads I have posted other times studies indicate that solely along the UP in Wtoming enough wind potential exists to power most freight on the entire UP. Imagine that hole in the oil market, and that is just along their ROW. Ultimately the point is that we need to do more on many fronts regen on the subways, LRV's, ETB's and EMU's as well as the ATK motors, solar heaters on our roof, and much more.
The question is, how do you capture it - that's where the problems (NIMBY, acreas of land use, efficiency, line transmission, death to rare birds ("Condor Cuisinart") come in.
Not insurmountable - windmills are coming into service. But total potential vs. useable potential is the relevant issue.
I saw an item on TV (PBS, IIRC) recently to the effect that farmers are beginning to put wind-powered generators in their fields to supplement the earnings from their crops. I like the idea of wind-powered generation of electricity alongside railroad ROWs being used to power the trains. Transmission costs and losses would be negligible since the power would be used virtually on site.
You'd never generate enough, and your savings would be negligible.
-Hank
Generating power "on site" may save the power lost due to long-distance transmission. But tying windmills to the railroad is no piece of cake. You need to ensure voltages and power supplies are stable, reliable and predictable, you need the equipment necessary to convert the electricity to voltages acceptable to the railroad, etc. etc. Far better to sell the power to a utility, and then leave the responsibilities and liabilities of supplying power to the railroad (and other customers) to them.
YOU emit CO2. Perhaps you should be replaced with a light-rail line. Of course, where is the electricity going to come from, midwestern power plants that further increase local pollution?
-Hank
Third, contrary to popular belief, an electric bus cannot swing out far enough from its wires to do a lane change.
Doesn't that depend on the installation and the length of the poles? I know I've seen a Philadelphia ETB go out around a double-parked car.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I think it actually depends on where the double parked car is situated in the roadway, and the size of the car.
bob d.
According to everything I've read on ETB (Trolley Coach, Trackless Trolley) ability to change lanes is that the vehicle should be able to move 11 feet in either direction from the center line of the trolley wires without loosing the poles.
As to the "ugliness" of the double wires, try the visual pollution of single suspension catenary over a city street (like Baltimore's Light Rail line on Howard Street).
Vehicle life of a diesel transit bus is about 15 years, give or take.
Vehicle life of an ETB is on the same time frame as a streetcar or LRV.
Moving 11 feet from the center line of a lane does not allow a trolley bus to make a full lane change. A lane is at a minimum 10 feet wide and in many cases 12 feet wide. This means a trolley bus can only get half way into the other lane.
As for cantenary wire, I never was a fan for its use over city streets. I think direct suspension trolley wire is the best for urbanized areas, as its the least visually obtrusive.
I think that US light rail systems are way too reliant on these european catenary "kits" that are being sent over, such as the one used on the Hudson-Bergen light rail. But then again, the Hudson Bergen light rail is owned and operated by a subsidiary ("the consortium")of SNCF (French National Railway), so what else would they buy with our tax dollars?
As for the lifespan of a trolley bus, according to a memo issued last year by the Vancouver, B.C. transit authority, they only last about 15 years, or 18 years at the most. That memo also points out that spare parts for trolley buses are no longer available.
1, the F line tripled ridership ovwe the ETB--but that is precisely because it is not merely a transit service, but like the cable cars is a entertainment in itself. Secondly the F line benefits from volunteer cleaners from Market Street Railwat(a fan org--site indexed on this site.
2. As to lane changes the ETB's in SF do quite well, and the new order includes batteries for off the wire emergency reroutes. AND they can take hills the diesels can't.
3 ETB's in SF currently in service are over 21 years old--gorgeous no, but QUIET. As to visual aesthetics, maybe if enoughdiesel soot is present the wires will be less obvious, 'course SOME of us like catenary!
Thanks for point # 1 in your last post, thats a really good one! Of course, some community folks would rather choke on diesel fumes than look at the "ugly" wires.
The E902's that BC transit got in 1981 were lemons and are pretty much spent after 20 years.
But hey so are the Boeing Light Rail Car in Boston and SF.
The Toronto Can Car Brill ETBs were delivered during the late 40s and lasted, with a face lift and rebuild until 1993. That's as good as the PCCs.
Bob,
You misread my comment. I said 11 feet from the center line of the trolley wires. On a four-lane street, the wires are usually placed 3 feet from the center between the lanes. That usually means the coach can pull to the curb to load, or pull into the inside lane to pass a slower vehicle or a double parked one.
Hi Dan- Thanks for the information. What I've been mainly doing is gathering up comments and technical information.
I think the folks on SUBTALK have alot more technical information at their fingertips, and in their heads, and relevant points of view than do the so called "experts" of the consulting world, who wont give anyone a straight answer about anything anyway.
Everyone on Subtalk has been extremely helpful and forthcoming with information, ideas and viewpoints.
[Passenger capacity vs. light rail] - True
[Same acceleration as conventional bus] - Not on any of the ETB's I've been on, in San Francisco, Boston, and Vancouver.
[Electric bus cannot swing out far enough to change lanes] - There exist dual-mode buses with trolley poles AND diesel engines - seem em with my very eyes in Seattle.
[Wires obtrusive] - Maybe, but how would streetcar wires be any different?
[Short life span] - Those ETBs in Boston, SF, Vancouver, etc., are pushing 25. Yes, many are ready to be hacked, but they have made it thus far.
[Uses more power than light rail] - Can't imagine how, but I'm no expert on the subject so I won't argue about something I don't know much about.
[People don't like to ride them] - Yeah well, I AIN'T ONE OF THOSE PEOPLE!
[Natural Gas bus comparable to diesel] - I was never a fan of CNG buses and I always felt they were more dangerous than diesel buses - diesel is not as explosive as natural gas.
Dont get me wrong, I think trolley buses have a place in the urban transit scene, as does light rail.
Direct suspension trolley wire has a bare minimum number of components, so its less visually obtrusive.
Trolleys run on rails, so friction is reduced to a minimum. This allows trolleys to spend most of their time coasting (except on steep hills or around sharp curves). Rubber tired vehicles cant do that.
I'm trying to get together some working points, keep the comments coming !
Bob D.
The following is the TTC's sense on Natural Gas Buses and Trolleybuses
The full Report can be found here
CNG Buses
Natural gas engines are an acceptable alternative to diesel in the transit industry. However, CNG poses greater safety risks than diesel fuel in transportation, storage, fuelling and maintenance and, hence, requires greater capital investment for fuelling station construction and facility modifications.
The TTC owns 125 CNG buses, and has one CNG fuelling station, located at Wilson garage, which is operating at its maximum daily fuelling capacity. The purchase of additional CNG buses would require additional CNG fuelling stations at a cost of $6 to $7 million per station, and approximately $5 to $10 million for facility modifications for each new CNG garage. Expanding CNG bus operations would also require some facility modifications to the TTC’s indoor bus transfer and parking areas. There are nine TTC subway stations where the bus transfer facilities are underground or partially enclosed, and CNG modifications at these facilities would be in the order of $15 to $20 million.
There is currently no capital funding available for the construction of additional CNG fuelling facilities or CNG facility modifications.
Electric Trolley Bus
The TTC’s Bus Technology Study, completed in 1995, provided a comprehensive comparative evaluation of the environmental benefits and life-cycle costs of diesel and trolley buses. An optimal trolley scenario was developed to achieve the highest farebox recovery to offset the cost of the trolley infrastructure. The economic analysis demonstrated that, in equivalent service scenarios, replacing 178 diesel buses with 178 trolley buses, required $120 million more in capital costs, and 10 percent higher operating costs, with total annualised life-cycle costs increasing by 51%.
Due to the high cost premium associated with trolley bus operation, the TTC has no plans to re-instate trolley bus service.
Hybrid-Electric and Hydrogen Fuel Cell Buses
Hybrid-electric buses use an internal combustion engine and one of a variety of fossil fuels to generate electricity for electric drive motors. They are being evaluated in several cities in North America on a trial basis. The technology is too recent to have any reliable operating or cost data. Similarly, buses powered by hydrogen fuel cells are now being developed and demonstrated. All fuel cells use highly-purified hydrogen and oxygen to produce electric power – and that is difficult to provide,. A relatively small number of transit properties are currently demonstrating fuel cell-powered buses. These programs are active in Chicago and Vancouver.
TTC staff are monitoring the progress and testing of emerging power systems and will bring forward recommendations when the technologies have been refined to the point of being practical for day-to-day operations.
Thanks for the TTC report, very informative.
Is anyone familiar with Magneto Hydrodynamics (dont know if its spelled right), and if any further research is being done ?
This was a theory in which electrical power can be extracted directly from a nuclear reactor, without the need for steam driven turbines.
Ionized plasma is used instead of wires or steam. The plasma would be controlled and directed to accumulator electrodes by a system of electromagnetic field coils.
I am sending your question to a friend of mine at Raytheon in Colorado - he knows something about related technologies and may be able to answer...
The basic experimental problem is how to contain and control plasma flow. It has not been solved in a size that is practical for power generation. If it were, then the same technology could probably be used for fusion. So, MHD is a heads - you win; tails I loose proposition. Large funding started drying up in the mid 1960's.
Light rail cannot move sideways at all, making operation in street running situations to be horrible and impassable.
a good light rail installation requires its own ROW, which costs money and is impossible in built up areas, the exact same areas that need light rail.
A bus can travel in any lane, on any road an make detours easily. Busses do not require any Maintenance of Way or huge start up expenses.
Hybrid busses pollute a lot less than standard busses, making investment in electric traction useless.
??.........!
You're right. I guess the only argument for lr, which is so popular now in new systems in the US, particularly the West, is that people who have never used transit before are more likely to try lr than to get on a bus, which might have poor people, or worse, negroes, on board. 'Member Rosa Parks?
Judging from experience I'd have to say some of what you're thinking exists in the east too. Although even my kids hate riding a Greyhound and a lot of Montana people never use it.I personally have no problems in that area.
I have people in my family who wouldn't ride the subway if they had a choice, had neighbors back then who felt the same way. Likewise avoided going to NYCity beaches, etc. The worst offenders are probably the Limousine Liberals.
If 90% of people of any race are good, some have more problems than others true, and I do have my feelings about the bad of some groups but then hate bad whites equally...but why should I or anybody object to riding with people are just have to get someplace?
Light rail is something new to most of these people and roomier than a bus; likewise in most areas light rail can MOVE where even on freeways busses can't in rush hour. At one time the raggedy [in some people's minds] trolleys were in disfavor for busses.Many New Yorkers pay a premium fare for an express bus and don't ride rails.
All in the eyes of those involved I guess.
Actually, three things:
A - LRT doens't get stuck in TRAFFIC. Any new system will run in seperate lanes, but fixed-guideway systems are the only dependable transit in existence, be they light rail, heavy rail, or monorail.
B - LRT is SMOOTH. Modern LRVs are almost eerily quiet when compared to even the smoothest buses.
C - Rail Bias. People have a prejudice against buses that is less racial and more classist. Buses are seen as a "low-income" ride, only for people "who can't afford cars."
So light rail wins for the needs of inter-regional
In regard to...
"than to get on a bus, which might have poor people, or worse, negroes, on board. 'Member Rosa Parks?"
I assume (and I could be wrong) that you are just an immature high school or college student who still uses liberal cliches to explain everything. When you grow up, you will realize that spouting liberal dismissive buzz words shows a lack of knowledge of the real world, and that most adults in this world do not actually fulfill your wishful thinking that you can dismiss their actions as "racist", "middle-class", etc.
Contrary to what you believe, most people avoid city busses because they are slow, infrequent, and unreliable, and compared to auto driving in MOST parts of the country, a second-best solution to getting anywhere. Most people, including most poor people, own cars, hard as that may be to believe. Light rail runs more frequently on a more predictable ROW, has a greater capacity because it is a main line into town from feeder bus routes and parking lots, and moves more smoothly, and for that reason is more popular.
When a city is really densely populated, like San Francisco, NYC, Boston, or Philadelphia, public transit it quite popular. The more of it that is on rails, the more popular it is.
Although my original comment was sarcasm, I grew up in parts of the country where racism is alive and well, and quite blatant. I am impressed though, how you were able to "assume" from one unserious comment an entire paragraph's worth about who I am and what I believe.
"Contrary to what you believe, most people avoid city busses because they are slow, infrequent, and unreliable, and compared to auto driving in MOST parts of the country, a second-best solution to getting anywhere."
Exactly. I use the rails to go downtown, weekday or weekend, for work or pleasure. Rail is faster than driving during the week and cheaper than parking all the time. But I only ride buses when I'm downtown or in other densely-populated neighborhoods of the city because driving is inherently faster than the buses. My decision has nothing to do with the class of people I expect to encounter on either mode of transport.
("Contrary to what you believe, most people avoid city busses because they are slow, infrequent, and unreliable, and compared to auto driving in MOST parts of the country, a second-best solution to
getting anywhere." ) (Exactly. I use the rails to go downtown, weekday or weekend, for work or pleasure. Rail is faster than driving during the week and cheaper than parking all the time.)
I think its the lack of a private, grade separated ROW that dooms the buses, not the vehicles themselves (now that there are fewer fumes). If you are on the street hitting lights AND making stops, you are going to be slow. If you are slow, you will only draw people with no choice. And to have low ridership without staggering subsidies, you have to be infrequent, which just makes things worse.
Hence, I believe the 42nd St Light Rail is a bad idea, but I believe buses (and light rail) can work on their own ROW. For example, lots of people in NJ ride the buses on the highways into the counterflow lane at the Lincoln Tunnel, because it's quick.
Transit has to overcome the fact that it doesn't leave right from where you are, doesn't go right to where you're going, doesn't go non-stop between the two, and doesn't leave right when you want it to. If you have a private ROW, that plus the lack of need to park, might make it competitive in places where congestion is high. If you're just on the street, it ain't so hot.
"I think its the lack of a private, grade separated ROW that dooms the buses, not the vehicles themselves (now that there are fewer fumes)."
That's exactly what I meant when I said buses are inherently slower than driving. A bus has to drive in the same traffic as an automobile so it can't be faster, and every stop it makes renders it slower than a car on the same street. Fewer stops speed up a bus but also make it less useful to people along the way.
And that's why for 11 years I only needed a "station car". My new job requires a real car, which I bought with 24K and now has 108K.
In my driving life time the cost of new autos has gone from a couple thousand to 30 or 40. Doesn't that mean that more folks are taking buses and other forms of mass transit because they have no choice, i.e. can't afford a new car every 3 or 4 years ?
I also remember my days at Pan AM where a group of union guys car pooled from Suffolk & had a fit if there wasn't enough OT for ALL of them on the night it was offered. My point here is that car pooling hasn't caught on for various reasons to streach out the time between new car purchases.
Mr t__:^)
New cars can still be bought for under $20,000; even Buicks at end of year clearnce. I don't depend on a car, even in Montana...if it don't go the mission can wait. So I drive junk. Sometimes lucky, sometimes wasted money.
You must be somewhere near my 57 years? I can remember the $2000-3000 for new cars, even less when I was little. Going by Motorman wages...from reading the papers, about 1957 annual wage was about $5200, meaning about $2.50 per hour...rough est. Now 10 times that; so don't know who got the better deal on cars. For low income people another story.Big time. Still in terms of inflation the new cars are still terribly high. A lot of that due to federal mandates.
People don't need Caddy's BMW's, SUV's etc...must be a lot of money to burn..or borrow.
Your final point is the tip of the iceberg, i.e. borrow.
Folks lease because they can't afford to buy others now regularly use mass transit for the same reason.
BTW, my first NEW car was a 1968 Dodge Charger ... bought it right off the showroom floor.
Mr t__:^)
That's only true if you let private cars on the public streets.
Light rail is just a heavy ass bus that can't move around obstructions. If you've ever been to Monorails.org they give a very convincing arguement (it won me over) for monrails instead of light rail. A few points described in their site:
The "light" in light rail only refers to passenger load. They're heavier than subways
The construction of light rail will disrupt traffic along a road for a while.
The frequent accidents light rail has when it's not grade seperated
The "light" in light rail only refers to passenger load. They're heavier than subways
Of course you realize that's a joke. "Light rail" refers to the comparison with "heavy rail", such as commuter trains.
Isn't subway considered "heavy rail?"
Yes, at the APTA web site, heavy rail is synonmous with subway. Commuter rail is its own category.
the actual tare weight of cars is often similar to "rapid transit" cars--remember the CTA 6000's were essentially PCC's on third rail structures. This modern euphemism for trolley cars is just so much BS designed to be 'moderne'. PROW grade separated or reserved by midian curbs is of course preferable. But before condmning "classic" streetcar trackage note that in the rankings of warm bodies per route mile several US "light rail" systems outperform so-called heavy rail. and at far lower installed cost.
>>http://www.publicpurpose.com/ut-wrail.htm<<
Denver's LRVs weigh in at about 44 tons apiece. They are so quiet they can sneak up on you if you're not careful.
Light rail has proven to be enormously popular in the Mile High City. RTD recently put in an order for 12 more vehicles because ridership has been so heavy. This is on top of a 6-car order placed a year ago for use on the Central Platte Valley Spur.
I'll say this: even in snowy weather, light rail keeps going when buses get snarled.
Light rail, I believe refers to the density of the rails themselves. Some LRT cars are heavier than subways, but that is because they are double length cars.
Also, commuter rail lines are under the jurisdiction of the FRA, so if you can claim you've got a subway or LRT, you can avoid a lot of unnecessary rules. (That's probably the real reason Washington's Metro is the way it is since, let's face it, outside the District it is a very frequent commuter train on its own separate ROW. I am not complaining, I bet those people in Boston or Philadelphia or even on the LIRR who get one commuter train per hour would love to have a subway roll along the same tracks every 10 minutes.)
Light rail, because it is made to go slower and to use shorter trains and less powerful motors, can be built to run anywhere, so it can be put in place for less money, and again not have to worry about FRA jurisdiction.
The following is from 49 CFR Part 213, which contains FRA regulations concerning Track Safety Standards:
"Sec. 213.3 Application.
"(a) Except as provided in paragraph (b) of this section, this part
applies to all standard gage track in the general railroad system of
transportation.
"(b) This part does not apply to track--
(1) Located inside an installation which is not part of the general
railroad system of transportation; or
(2) Used exclusively for rapid transit operations in an urban area
that are not connected with the general railroad system of
transportation."
If that doesn't give you a severe case of mental indigestion, click here.
Yes well if you like monorail (I am a monorail convert too, although i still believe there are cases where LRT is better suited to the task at hand) you should move out by me - Seattle! Seattleites voted YES on our second monorail initiative with a higher percentage than any mayor EVER won by. WHen the real proposal comes out in 2002, the answer will be a resounding "yes" and you will soon see a large monorail system serving the entire city. Seattlites are fed up with waiting 'til 2009 for a so-called light rail "starter system" that is over a billion dollars over budget when construction hasn't even started yet. SoundTransit has gotten approved for 500 mil to bui the tunnel and if they're as dumb as they look (likely) then they might try to build it. But they don't even have the money for the south line (Rainier Valley, SeaTac airport) and the monorail is going to go there instead. Just you watch.
I was out there, and riding the monorail was pretty fun. I still like subways better, though. How would the monorail be extended? They really can't extend it from Seattle Center. The only choice they have is to rebuild the other end so that the rails aren't so close to together and make it a regular stop.
To the south, extending it is no sweat, although the Westlake station would have to be rebuilt. To the north, the existing Seattle Center terminal would either be disconnected and relegated to a monorail museum, or else served by a switch. There will actually be two lines through downtown (two tracks won't be enough to carry all the trains) and the other one will probably be on 2nd Ave. What will become of the Seattle Center terminal is uncertain. STill wanna know the routes? Based on my *ahem* "off the record *ahem* emails with prominent transit dudes, may I offer this map I made. The blue, green, and yellow lines are the system that will be put to the voters in 2002. The dashed red is a future express line that will be provided for (switches in place) but not built. keep in mind this is all subject to change, as there are 21 months remaining to study the routes before it's put to the voters. But here's what it looks like now:
http://www.geocities.com/talgo79/monorailmap.jpg
---Abe
That's a cool map, and your confidence is refreshing, however I'm a little more cynical/skeptical. Who's gonna pay for it? Also, what are the little haloes near the stations? Have you ever seen Jacksonville's monorail? It's quite a nice start, but the capacity is very low and the current system doesn't really go anywhere. I was very impressed that it was built at all. But then in FL there really is no density to make transit worthwhile. If people want to sprawl, I say let them.
I'd love to take credit for the whole thing, but I just stole that map of the Elevated Transit Company's website. The map is at http://www.elevated.org/stations.htm. The halos represent station locations as specified in the now-defunct initiative 41. Now as for the Seattle monorail....
Your comments seem a little shortsighted to me. Looking at Jacksonville's people-mover and concluding that monorails have low capacity is like looking at a 5 bench open-air Brill trolley car and concluding that 8-car LRV consists (like in Sacramento) don't exist. The truth is monorails can be as teeny as an amusement park ride, or they can be as long and as fast as a New York Subway train. The difference is no one in the USA has gotten off their asses and built one. It may not be the prettiest monorail in existence, but check out this photo of the Tokyo-Haneda monorail in Japan: http://monorails.org/tMspages/TokyoH.html. Looks like pretty high capacity to me! Likewise, the two 1961 monorail trains are short, but seat 5 across. You see, you can make a monorail very wide because it's not running on teeny flanges on a couple of rails that aren't even 5 feet apart.
As for finances, it'll happen. Who'll pay for it? Seattle. The monorail measure, when put on the ballot in 2002, will be a city-wide measure. So none of the car-driving suburbanites who think more roads are the only solution will have a say in it. It'll be citywide taxes in a city that realizes its traffic is bad. Most of the anti-light rail people realize that the monorail will also effectively kill SoundTransit's light rail project so they'll vote for it, too. People don't have to ride monorails to like one - they carry with them a "futuristic" feel and as such have immense curb appeal. Don't believe me? An independent survey found that 52% of L.A. residents thought that a "monorail" was the best solution to their traffic problems, wiht light rail trailing distantly at 18%. The remaining 31% was all the other modes (expanding the subway, better bus service, more freeway lanes, etc). In short, Seattle's monorail is coming down the tracks. And it's going to KICK @$$.
Is Seattle very dense? (Pardon my ignorance, but I've never been to the left coast). According to my almanac, Seattle is roughly half the density of Philadelphia, but Philadelphia includes some very suburban portions, and I don't know if this is also the case for Seattle.
Seattle is about as dense as most other older western cities - most of the older neighborhoods (where the monorail would serve) are two-stoory single-family homes on small lots. Then there are the apartment buildings that exist already and will inevitably spring up along the monorail line. In short, it's not DENSE< but it's still heavy enough to support good ridership....
I believe that Monorails are not a good transit alternative. THey're an oddball technology, and will cost significantly more in the long run.
-Hank
Light rail can be a good alternative to heavy rail for a few reasons.
1. Station access and construction is easier fare control can be on bord and you can have walkways across the tracks.
2. You can have grade level crossing without having to deal with third rail on the streets.
3. You can reach high speeds in exclusive right of way that cannot be turned into car pool lanes by pols.
Station access and construction is easier fare control can be on bord and you can have walkways across the tracks.
Check out LA, heavy rail with on board fare control. Heavy rail can also have track crossings, just check out commuter rail.
You can have grade level crossing without having to deal with third rail on the streets.
You can have heavy rail with overhead wire, and commuter rail, even third rail based systems like the LIRR and MNRR have plenty of grade crossing.
You can reach high speeds in exclusive right of way that cannot be turned into car pool lanes by pols.
And heavy rail can't do this?
"Check out LA, heavy rail with on board fare control. Heavy rail can also have track crossings, just check out commuter rail."
Commuter rail is slow and pedestrian track crossings only work with low platform and overhead power.
You can reach high speeds in exclusive right of way that cannot be turned into car pool lanes by pols.
"You can have heavy rail with overhead wire, and commuter rail, even third rail based systems like the LIRR and MNRR have plenty of grade crossing."
But light rail lines are safer and more convenient for drivers on major roads. Also is third rail and grade crossings a safe mix?
You can reach high speeds in exclusive right of way that cannot be turned into car pool lanes by pols.
And heavy rail can't do this?
I have yet so see heavy rail that can run like the B C E lines in Boston.
Commuter rail is slow and pedestrian track crossings only work with low platform and overhead power.
Untrue and untrue!
But light rail lines are safer and more convenient for drivers on major roads. Also is third rail and grade crossings a safe mix?
Only idiots walk down the tracks to touch the third rail.
And running trains in the streets is a recipe for disaster.
"Only idiots walk down the tracks to touch the third rail."
True but those idiots might wind up costing transit lots of money.
"And running trains in the streets is a recipe for disaster."
how so Boston has some and saftey is not an issue.
As to commuter rail from what a know diesel is much slower than electric.
True but those idiots might wind up costing transit lots of money.
Only because transit agencies don't have the PR balls to take on the cripple in court, win and show an example to other idiots that the tracks are no place to play.
how so Boston has some and saftey is not an issue.
The Green Line is more crowded and slow than the red, orange or blue lines.
As to commuter rail from what a know diesel is much slower than electric.
We're not talking about diesel here, don't bring it up.
I have yet so see heavy rail that can run like the B C E lines in Boston.
If you are refering to really fast speeds, ride BART, MARTA, WMATA or Monreal Metro.
Light rail is the best way to go buses suck. the accidents between cars and light rail is 99% the fault of the car's driver not keeping aware of the conditions of the traffic,light rail on Portland is very popular and is gtrowingthe roads are being ruined by the large amount of traffic which must be closed to have repair work done so don't complain about light rail construction when it gets done people are happy and use the light rail.buses stink the air to high heaven,just get stuck in traffic behind one,try pushing a broken down bus when it's blocking a narrow street.
The exhaust of a bus is nothing compared to the 50 cars it replaces.
But a light rail train carries three times that a single bus does.....with no stink,and less cost and a savings in diesel fuel,buses are not fuel efficent not by a long shot.
except in California brown outs
Ya got me................8-(
i do not know but the los angeles BLUE LINE is a succes ( the only good story here ) & it runs where the rightaway of the
good old PE red cars used to run !! the green / red lines, incompatible with each other is another sad story !! that does sux!!
Just an afterthought, about ETB's not being able to go around obstacles - a streetcar would be pretty screwed if there was an obstruction of some sort on the tracks. At least an ETB would have a shot at going around it.
Just a few technical points:
Acceleration and braking should be comparable to a PCC.
The big limiting factor for a diesel bus is that diesel
engine.
The CO2 issue is even bigger than this debate. Basically,
any time a kWh of energy is produced by the reaction
C+O2 - > CO2, the same amount of CO2 will be produced for
that energy. That's for any fossil fuel, in a stationary
power plant or in a gasoline, diesel, CNG, Alchohol or LNP
engine. Certainly there are some efficiency differences between
systems that are significant, but unless the electricity is
being generated by a non-fossil plant, it doesn't matter if it
is a trolley, trolleybus or internal combustion bus.
That's true, and that's why the benefits of CNG lie in lack of particulate emissions, lack of sulfur in emissions; its drawbacks in the slightly lower fuel efficiency and the lack of CNG applications in higher-capacity buses (such as articulated models, which MTA has stated are not available in CNG). And yes, depot considerations are part of this debate - CNG handling hazards vs. heavy diesel fumes from a diesel depot.
Thanks to everyone for taking such an interest in this. I have a really good handle now as to what the central issues are. This is the first time I ever saw an interesting exchange of ideas on urban surface transit.
If there are anymore comments or observations, please keep them coming.
Thanks,
bob d.
Bob, you might try posting some questions/comments on the BusTalk side.
Mr t__:^)
May I also mention that a CNG-equipped bus has MUCH SLOWER acceleration than the same bus equipped with a diesel engine? Over the course of a scheduled half-hour route the CNG/Diesel difference can be 5-7 minutes.
Well I may beg to differ. The Cummins L10G may be slower than Cummins diesel engines, but the Detroit diesel Series 50G is just as fast as the diesel version, maybe even a tad faster.
To add to John's point ... a engine designed for diesel won't be as good as one designed for CNG. Case in point we have two John Deer's that run much cooler then our Detroit's. The slugishness of the Cummings CNGs' is well known.
Mr t__:^)
Think I saw a Deere bus (with the sticker) near Queensboro plaza from the 7 train. Too bad I was too far away to hear it!
Look for 404 & 437 that's them.
Mr t__:^)
The bus I saw was 404.
...same amount of CO2 will be produced for
that energy. That's for any fossil fuel, in a stationary
power plant or in a gasoline, diesel, CNG, Alchohol or LNP
engine.
The CO2 emitted by burning alcohol is CO2 that was recently removed from the atmosphere by the biomass from which the alcohol was derived. The CO2 released by burning fossil fuels was removed from the atmosphere millions of years ago. The CO2 situation regarding burning alcohol is nearly a steady-state, except for the additional energy expended processing the alcohol. Of course, additional energy is also expended processing fossil fuels.
And how do you tink the additional energy to process the alcohol was derived? Nothing is a "steady state."
Your comparison is technically or semantically correct, but irrelevant to a decision maker.
Thank you for your irrelevant response.
Here are some things people should know about "trolley buses".
Almost all the points you listed are wrong. Let's go through them one by one. I'll even add a real disadvantage that you missed.
First, an electric bus has only a fraction of the passenger carrying capacity of a comparable light rail car.
An electric bus is a bus. It has the same dimensions as a bus - not the dimensions of a light rail car. It has the same capacity as a bus of similar size - or a LRV of similar size. The capacity of a 60' articulated trolleybus is greater than that for a PCC - again it's apples and oranges. Try comparing a double-decked trolleybus from England to a Birney.
Second, an electric bus has the same poor acceleration and braking characteristics of a conventional bus. Neither compares to even a humble PCC trolley car.
Completely false. Trolleybuses - as opposed to battery powered electric buses - have far greater acceleration than diesels. They use DC motors that provide max torque at 0 rpm as opposed to a diesel. The acceleration can knock down an unsuspecting passenger used to diesels. Regarding acceleration versus a PCC - the trolleybus has slightly better maximum acceleration due to the better adhesion of the rubber tire to asphalt than steel wheel to rail adhesion.
Third, contrary to popular belief, an electric bus cannot swing out far enough from its wires to do a lane change.
They can do a single lane change in either direction from the wires. I've ridden many many trolley busses that will pick up at curbside and move into one of two travel lanes on a 3 lane roadway.
Fourth, if you have ever seen an electric bus installation, the wires are amazingly visually obtrusive. Light rail trolley wires are a godsend compared to electric bus wires.
The wires are certainly visible. Whether they are obtrusive is a question for esthetics. They do provide one benefit at no cost. They tell the waiting passenger that a bus is coming. The first indication for a bus is the vertical swaying of the wires. This no cost feature provides just as much warning as a fancy GPS based system.
Fifth, an electric bus has the a life span almost as short as a conventional bus, under 15 years. A light rail car lasts from 40 to 100 years, such as 50 year old PCC's now overhauled and running in San Franciso and Kenosha.
Trolleybuses require less maintenance than conventional buses. They do not last as long as trolleys because they do not control their right of way. Two generations of trolleybuses running out of Harvard Sq point to a life span of 20 to 30 years.
Sixth, an electric bus uses up more electric power than a light rail car. In fact, an electric bus costs much more to operate than any other type of street running transit vehicle (except for natural gas buses), and requires many more support personnel, as they are breakdown prone. In other words, an electric bus combines all of the weak points of a light rail car and a conventional bus, but has none of the clear cut advantages of either.
The NYCBOT published their monthly expenses minutely broken down into categories, routes, depots, etc. The trolleybus fleet was the least expensive to operate. The trolleys were the most expensive due to right of way maintenance. The diesels had higher maintenance and fuel costs.
Seventh, people dont like to ride electric buses. When Muni replaced the electric buses on the "F" line with PCC trolleys not too long ago,the ridership of the line doubled immediately.
Generally speaking, people prefer any conveyance that provides frequent, fast transportation with a pleasant ambiance. The propulsion method is of secondary concern. So far as any rider preference survey - there was one undertaken by the PTC in the late 1940's. The survey results showed riders perferred trolleybuses to trolleys or diesel buses. Of course, that was before the National City takeover.
As for natural gas powered buses, it should be noted that while they may burn fuel somewhat cleaner than a diesel power bus, they produce just as much Carbon Dioxide as a diesel bus. Carbon Dioxide is one of the most offensive of all the Greehouse Effect Gasses. Natural gas buses actually use more fuel than a diesel bus, because they weigh much more.
There will not be much difference for CO2 emission. Trolleybuses do provide the possibility for using non fossil fuel generation, as does LRV. The energy conversion for electric vehicles is far more efficent than for diesels - so one would expect less CO2 emission even for fossil fuel electric generation.
Trolleybuses do have one disadvantage - SNOW. You can't put chains on them and the sand blown under the wheels doesn't work.
just out of curiosity... why can't trolley buses have chains on them??
Does any one know why snow chains cant be put on trolleybuses, or what they do instead?
I can't think of any instance where chains etc. have been needed on an electric bus because the roads on which they ran had more than adequate snow clearing.
Also, I do not see any reason why snow chains can't be put on an electric bus anyways.
-Robert King
I don't have a definite answer, but I thought up a reason this afternoon that could in fact be true. First off, light rail uses one wire overhead because the negative is returned thru the rails. Trolley buses have two because they have rubber tires, so the negative has to go thru another overhead wire to complete the circuit. Maybe if chains are put on, it will create another circuit to the ground and cause a lot of arcing when the wheels turn. Also, someone might brush up aganist the chains and get shocked.
I think youve hit the nail on the head. The entire body of the electric bus must be part of the "ground circuit", or negative trolley lead.
Earth ground is a quite a different thing from the negative lead of the trolley bus wire, and you would get lots of sparks whenever the bus with chains travelled over a manhole casting, or any other metallic object.
A shock hazard would certainly be created too.
[The entire body of the electric bus must be part of the "ground circuit", or negative trolley lead. ]
I don't see why? Your toaster's case is probably not connected to electrical ground.
Arti
If the toaster case is metal, it's connected to the third prong, which goes to ground just like neutral (the bigger of the two main prongs).
[If the toaster case is metal, it's connected to the third prong, which goes to ground just like neutral (the bigger of the two main prongs). ]
Most consumer appliances (like my toaster) don't have a "third prong"
The case is isolated from the power supply.
Arti
The case is made out of plastic or a poorly conducting metal.
Otherwise a bad wire could make contact with the case.
[The case is made out of plastic or a poorly conducting metal. ]
Mine is made out of metal. What kind of poorly conducting metal would you sugest?
Arti
OB OT Subject change
The ground prong can be dispensed with if the power wiring
is double-isolated from any exposed metal surfaces. Most
modern 2-prong toasters are made of plastic with some sheet
metal for decorative purposes.
So if a person with wet shoes standing on a wet street touched the metal body of a trplley bus, he'd get a shock? I'm skeptical.
Yeah, that's probably the only thing that prevents me from thinking my theory is entirely correct.
Why can't the body of the trolleybus be insulated from both sides of the power circuit?
Well said Stephen.
I wonder about the last point though... ETBs having trouble with snow. I cannot recall the trolleybuses here in Toronto having any more problems than the streetcars.
ETBs are in Boston, Edmonton and were in Calgary and Montreal. Surely snow was not a great problem...
See my previous note above...
I used electric buses extensively for several years and they never had any problems in wintertime. The only remarkable effect of winter on the electric buses were that there could be some nice arcs and flashes as the shoes moved along the wires while the bus was pulling traction power.
ETBs are in Boston,...
Actually, it was while I was living in Boston during the late 1950's, that I found out about the trackless trolley/snow problem. Back then about 1/3 the surface fleet was trackless trolley. They all went except for a few lines that used the subway in Harvard Sq around 1961 or '62. Even the Harvard-Lechemere Line - the first Boston's first trackless trolley went and the line had to terminate upstairs.
The snow problem with trolleybuses or trackless trolleys, as they say in Boston, does not exist, if the streets are well plowed. Trolleybuses can't use chains because of what might happen should a chain break. There is a very good possibility that the chain could come in contact with the hot wire and with the a salt snow brine on the ground electrocute some passersby.
The problem is not limited to the hot wire. In Boston, the return wire was not quite at ground potential. They had to replace the metal poles in the middle of the doorway with non-conducting bakelite. Passengers would get a noticeable jolt when the simultaneously touched the real ground and the trolley bus return.
I'm electrically confused. What doorway? Are you saying the
replacement poles caused the problem or were its solution>
The negative wire in a 2-wire system is not supposed to be
grounded at each pole. The span wires that support the overhead
should be insulated from the line poles.
I also don't understand the concern about chains. Why would
a broken chain be likely to contact a hot conductor on the bus?
It would just thrash about in the wheel well. Besides, any
wiring under the floor is in conduit.
I'm electrically confused. What doorway? Are you saying the replacement poles caused the problem or were its solution>
The front doors on the trackless trolleys were wide enough for passengers to enter and leave simultaneously. They were outward moving accordian type doors just like the doors on Boston's PCC cars. A vertical pole,in the center of the doorway and anchored to the body frame was used to assist passengers getting on and off. These poles were originally chrome plated and conducting. They tried wrapping them with electrical tape and finally replaced them with non-conducting poles.
The negative wire in a 2-wire system is not supposed to be grounded at each pole. The span wires that support the overhead should be insulated from the line poles.
The "negative" or more accurately return wire was connected to the bus frame. There was a potential difference between this return wire and actual earth ground. Passengers were able to feel this potential difference, when they provided a conducting path with their bodies. The use of non-conducting poles eliminated the problem and gave the passengers a nice ride in a Faraday shield.
I also don't understand the concern about chains. Why would a broken chain be likely to contact a hot conductor on the bus? It would just thrash about in the wheel well.
I posed a similar question regarding why buses did not use chains during the last snowstorm. There were two buses stuck in 3 or 4 inches of snow near my house. One respondant stated that the wheel wells are not as strong as they once were.
Besides, any wiring under the floor is in conduit.
I don't know what the wiring arrangement was. I'm sure they did not use or at least did not maintain NEMA-4 packaging. There may have been a greater chance for snow and salt getting into any conduit and corroding the wiring. This would be a problem with any electric vehicle. Perhaps, the chains would provide an additional means for starting an opening.
In any case, Boston Elevated and the MTA did not use chains on the trackless fleet. It certainly did limit its usefullness considering the sloth with which streets were plowed. None of the other posters has yet given instances where chains are definitely used with ETB's. They certainly are used in many snow belt cities from Toronto to Moscow.
Chains are not used in Seattle. Instead, virtually every trolleybus line in Seattle has a "snow route" which avoids major hills. The worst problem in Seattle is ice, not deep snow. Winters here are very mild, and so a freeze-thaw-freeze-thaw cycle can be repeated many times over the course of a week (as opposed to cities like Toronto, which never go above 32F for months at a time). This leaves a nice coat of ice on the roadway, and also causes some spectacular accidents on the freeways. Some of Seattle's trolleybus lines climb grades of more than 20% (I'd like to see an LRV do that) and even a trolley can't make it up those with ice.
Some of Seattle's trolleybus lines climb grades of more than 20% (I'd like to see an LRV do that)
I think that's a bit of an exageration. I'll be happy to get a accurate estimate using the DeLorme TopoUSA to settle the argument. Where is this 20% grade located?
I think the chains thing is peculiar to Boston.
I will double check next time I'm near a wiring diagram for one,
but I'm pretty sure that on a TT the body is supposed to be
floating. Connecting the negative wire to the body is very
dangerous: should the negative pole dewire the vehicle would
be at a healthy 600V potential to ground.....same sort of fun
as when you've run your trolley car onto a very rusty or icy
stretch of track.
A follow-up. I checked a few sources. On a trolley bus,
the body is floating. The negative pole lead is not connected
to the body. The reason is exactly as I had earlier stated:
if the negative pole were connected to the body, and the pole
dewired or there was some other interruption in the negative
line, then the body would be hot.
I have no explanation as to why these passengers were getting
zinged on Boston tts, but perhaps there were wiring faults
between the traction power harness and the body. Even 50K
or so of leakage can make for an interesting, but probably
not lethal experience.
I stand corrected on the trackless trolley body grounding.
A 50K leakage would be a potential disaster. A human body is about 500K (hand to toe). As a leg in a voltage divider circuit, the human body would get 90% of the open circuit voltage. That would be 540 volts, assuming that the person were barefoot and standing on a ground rod. I would think that a 50 Meg leakage would provide the needed safety margin.
Voltage doesn't kill, current does, if I remember correctly 50mA is lethal. Of course "50K leakage" @ 600V would kill, as the current would be around 1A.
Arti
First off, we're talking about getting an uncomfortable tingle, not electrocuting potential paying passengers. Second, 600 v with a 50K resistor produces 12 ma not 1 A. Third, if we include the resistance of the human body, it becomes 600 v across 550K or 1.1 ma.
"Second, 600 v with a 50K resistor produces 12 ma "
Must be too early, forgot that 1000
"it becomes 600 v across 550K or 1.1 ma"
That would cause uncomfortable tingle, probably.
Arti
So, the coach body is "floating". I think I can see where the current leakage problems come from.
As we know, the dielectric capacity of insulation naturally decreases with age, this can be greatly accelerated by the environment as well. The insulation in the traction motors, and the wiring in the vehicle itself looses some of its properties.
The positive and negative leads in trolley bus motors may not be directly connected to the coach body, but the motor frames themselves most likely are. As motor insulation weakens, even just a little, the current will leak into the coach body. If a motor flashes over, or partially shorts out, current will leak into the body.
Currents seeking any insulation defect, or short in any of the 600 volt auxiliary circuits can also find their way into the coach body, such as through defects in the lighting, heating, MG or static converter, etc.
In a rail car, these problems would simply blow a fuse or a circuit breaker. In a vehicle with "floating ground", such as an electric bus, it can be a real problem to alighting passengers, as they become the easiest path to the earth.
An old timer recently related a story to me, about how in the early 1960's, a passenger boarding an electric bus in Brooklyn was burned, due to a motor or wiring fault, and this incident played a mojor role in the removal of electric buses in NYC.
Folks who operate electric buses may want to think about meggering them on a regular basis.
An old timer recently related a story to me, about how in the early 1960's, a passenger boarding an electric bus in Brooklyn was burned, due to a motor or wiring fault, and this incident played a mojor role in the removal of electric buses in NYC
Just when in the early 1960's did this occur?
Was told verbally that it occured ca '60 or '61. Might make an interesting research project for someone into microfilmed newspapers.
Was told verbally that it occured ca '60 or '61.
Let me narrow it down further. Last day of operation was July 27, 1960.
On the second point.....
They have one helluva lot more acceleration and braking rate than disel buses. Obviously you have never ridden one.
On the third point.....
Obviously you have never SEEN one in operation either. Theymost certainly can do lane changes without losing contact with the wire. That's about the only way they can run the 30 line in San Francisco with all the double parked delivery trucks on Stockton Street in Chinatown....and many other locations around San Francisco.
Fourth point.....
The wires aren't any more "obtrusive" than those of a rail system. There's just two wires instead of one.
Fifth point.....
You're totally wrong here. Their lifespan is a helluva lot longer than 15 years that you quote. The Flyers in San Francisco, Vancouver, and Dayton are well over 20 years old. And as much as San Francisco's are a little beat up, they run quite well.
Sixth point.....
I won't argue about power consumption, as I don't know the facts. But more breakdown prone?????? I don't think so. Go up to San Francisco and see what breaks down the most. Their "light rail" cars. The worst thing I have seen happen with an ETB is a dewiring which takes maybe a minute or so to correct. And if an ETB does break down, the rest of the vehicles on the line CAN continute service by just going around the broken down vehicle. They're not waiting in line on the rails behind it.
Seventh point.....
Yeah right. Is that why the electric bus routes are the most heavily patronized in San Francisco??? Wake up. People don't give a flying rat's ass what kind of bus they ride as long as it gets their fat asses across town. Oh sure, ridership on the F line doubled. But had they stuck the trouble-prone Bredas out there, they'd avoid it like the bubonic plague. It was a novelty thing and still is.
That's such a load of crap. Electric buses are cheaper to produce than light rail cars, a system is cheaper to build, and it can be up and running in a much faster time frame.
The visual impact of the wires is identical between light rail and ETBs.
ANd an ETB has a LONGER lifespan than a similar diesel bus, simply due to the reduced weight and moving parts. The only reason those PCC cars are still going 50 years later is neccisity. Until recently, no one wanted to upgrade their systems, and they were perfectly willing to let the infrastructure rot until they could install diesel bus lines.
-Hank
Randy Kennedy from the Times is doing a small column about people who refuse to use Metrocards for any reason. If you're one of these people give him a call, 212-556-3749, or email him at kennedyr@nytimes.com
Thanks,
Dave
My Grandmother refused to even buy more than one token at a time. "Why should I let THEM hold on to my money" was her attitude. Too bad she is no longer with us >G<.
Because some people are crazy and just hold on to the cards too hard. When they do, it bends the card and they swipe faster and faster so it *may* work. It doesn't. So they get all angry, refuse to learn how to use it properly and use the classic token. I'm not one of those people. The original Blue cards seemed thinner than today's Gold ones.
I'm bad - I'm just lazy. I misplace or lose pieces of paper (not just Metrocards), while loose change (tokens, coins) hangs on to me. Of course, I end up paying the two-zone penalty sometimes for that.
I like Metrocards, and encourage people to use them. The fact that I don't use them often is my own fault (I do use them sometimes).
You should certainly send that over to Mr. Kennedy.
I already have.
The Gold card I just got is much thinner than the ones from a few months ago but it's still that plastic-tyvek material..
I just got a card from a Chase ATM in a bank on Fort Washington Avenue, and $15 Metrocard. It's paper, but it seems like a hybrid of sorts, definitely more plasticy than SingleRide tickets or transfers. It still looks the same otherwise.
BTW, this is an older style ATM that sucks up your ATM card at the beginning of the transfer, but it spits it out right away (new ATMs have you dip the card and pull it out, reading on the pull stroke).
What the ATM does with the card is dependant upon the bank.
-Hank
Chase has been using that speical card for years. Collectors have all three versions of it.
Mr t__:^)
"You've Got Mail" Mr. Kennedy!!
Why don't you share with us?
Read what he said in the Times !
Mr t__:^)
I posted that message well before the article was published.
You just HAVE to laugh when you walk into a crowded station, the lines at the token booth are a mile long and the MVM have no lines.
I always use them vending machines... except for that one day when they couldn't handle the time change and died, displaying a "microsoft windows" screen. (Being a tecky I still get a huge laugh out of that.).
Joe
>>>You just HAVE to laugh when you walk into a crowded station, the lines at the token booth are a mile long and the MVM have no lines<<<
I actually saw the reverse today at 34th/7th IRT station. Booth had no lines. MVMs did. I had to wait a few minutes. I don't deal with booths (haven't used one for over a year) and I've come to like the Gold Dollars.
Peace,
ANDEE
I don't use booths because I never buy a Metrocard with cash anymore.
I choose to eliminate the middleman (cash gotten from an ATM).
Randy Kennedy from the Times is doing a small column about people who refuse to use Metrocards for any reason. If you're one of these people give him a call, 212-556-3749, or email him at kennedyr@nytimes.com
He won't be getting many e-mails ... people who refuse to use Metrocards probably also refuse to use computers :-)
1
Somehow that doesn't surprise me.
Peace,
ANDEE
He's an idiot who can't ride more than 47 times a month without losing a lot of money, and obviously loses 13.34 cents for every charge, not to mention the inability of continuing a trip by bus.
I'm sure he's also one of those DAMN FOOLS who cashes his paycheck or welfare check at a check cashers instead of opening a savings account, cashing checks for free and collecting interest.
Agreed and I have met him. As I said in a previous post, with his line of thinking, he should turn in his camcorder for a Suoer 8.
Peace,
ANDEE
he should turn in his camcorder for a Suoer 8
What's a Super 8?
A 12mm movie camera popular in the 70s
Peace,
ANDEE
Why was it called Super 8 if it was 12 mm?
Because 8mm was popular at the time and calling the 12mm "super8" was a marketing ploy.
Peace,
ANDEE
The Super8 (I still have a few reels of film shot when I was a kid) did not have a sound-track. Do you sometimes see the jerky home movies with the slightly faded, off-color look in commercials (when the actor or actress is talking about how "momma used to make it")? That's what Super-8 used to look like esp after years in the can.
Still, it was a nice, affordable camera. Each film cartridge had three minutes worth of film in it, and some cameras had two filming speeds.
Both Super 8 and regular 8 had the same film width, extra area was achieved by narrowing the perforation.
Arti
Pork,
I posted a response to you under Subway Surf's posting instead.
A 12mm movie camera popular in the 70s.
Peace,
ANDEE
he should turn in his camcorder for a Super 8
What's a Super 8?
Oh, GAWD I'm getting old!
pjd
LOL
ME too as my honeymoon pictures are super 8 ... no none inside the room.
Mr t__:^)
I go to NYC about 8 times a year, and I always buy more metrocard than I use. And I always forget to bring old ones when I return. Consequently I probably have 4 or 5 laying around my apt. somewhere. I'd be smarter to use tokens.
Or by Metrocards for the absolute minimum possible, then refilling as you go.
No, he's right. People who make only 1 or 2 rides a year should use token or those swipe guys.
Make sure to use the swipe guys at least a few times. Even delinquents need to eat.
It beats welfare or panhandling. Instead of being a nuissance he's a help.
Petty theft and criminal trespass are better than panhandling? Great, I'll remember that next time I go shopping. I'll pay the shoplifter instead of the cash register - and buy at a great discount. Who needs Cosco?
I'll pay the shoplifter instead of the cash register - and buy at a great discount. Who needs Cosco?
Shoplifters have almost no selection and the quality/age of the food is always a question. However with things like batteries, I have heard that those kids who sell them on the subways for $1 a package really have good merchandice and you can generally trust them.
They're not kids, they're illegal aliens.
Even better!
"...the quality/age of the food is always a question. However with things like batteries..."
I would worry about the quality and age of batteries, too. Unless you're using the batteries as little paperweights, you don't want a "stale" or used (possibly almost used up) battery that has little charge left in it. It would be easy to sell a battery with one or two days usage left in it, knowing the buyer won't find that out until the vendor is long gone and working another line.
No no, they sell them in the packages. Food, unlike batteries, can go bad in the package.
Food, unlike batteries, can go bad in the package.
Batteries can lose power over time even if they're not being used in a device.
That's why they are dated.
So it's ok to buy stolen goods, it's ok to farebeat, it's ok to pick through other folks garbage, and it's ok to support those who commit said criminal acts.
Get some therapy.
-Hank
People who make only 1 or 2 rides a year should use token or those swipe guys.
It may be hard actually to use one of those "swipe guys." For all the talk about them, I've never seen anyone selling swipes.
I have used the SubWay 3 times and I used a swipe guy for one of those trips. That's 33%.
Three times is hardly a representative sample.
Look at the MetroCards you have. There is a date printed on them. You have a YEAR after the date has expired to turn them into a Token Booth where the clerk will MOVE the remaining value to a new card.
Mr t__:^)
I recently took a quick road trip with a friend of mine from NJ, and she steadfastly does not want to get an EZ Pass. Her reason is actually a rather scary (yet mildly paranoid) one:
Her theory is that sometime in the future, the police will use the EZ pass system to fine speeders. Here's an example: say one toll plaza clokcs you going through it at 12:00, and the next one clocks you going through it at 12:20, when if you were not speeding it would have taken you 5 more minutes to arrive there.... BUSTED!
So how's that for Big Brother paranoia/potiental reality coming to a highway near you??
One more reason to take the train, I guess!
Count me as another one of those... I don't run over the limit unless it would be more dangerous not to (due to the majority of traffic running well above) but I still don't like the idea of Big Brother watching. On the GSP I use tokens, elsewhere I use cash. Heck, I rarely even use a credit card - web and phone purchases, the vet's office (I never have THAT much money in my pocket) - that's about it, otherwise I pay cash.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I use tokens to cross the bridges of NYC. My company still has some rolls of TBTA tokens that were used by Dispatchers before E-Z-Pass.
$30 for a roll of 9 ... 3.33 vs. 3.50 and TA isn't making any money on the "float" from the mim they make you keep in your account.
I also sell rolls to members of the 3/4 Ton Crew ... wouldn't make much since to other SubTalkers due to the cost of shipping.
The best part is the dirty looks I get when I hand the booth the token & ask for a receipt.
Mr t__:^)
[TA isn't making any money on the "float" from the mim they make you keep in your account. ]
They sure are, can you use those tokens for anything but toll?
Arti
The tokens are MTA Bridges and Tunnel tokens valued at $3.50 each (you need two for the V/Z Bridge). My job has two unopen cases of the still. Bridge and Tunnels won't give a refund for them until they change the price of the toll, then we can turn them in and it will be for a limited time only I'm sure.
That's my point, you are no more in control of your money than with E-Z Pass.
Arti
What about the electronic toll highways where the people who use them have dashboard mounted transponders so that a computer can track each vehicle's highway useage and issue a bill at the end of the month? Since the computer is already useing information taken from the transponder recievers at the entry and exit points on the highway the computer already has the necessary information to compute average speed and add a speeding fine to the bill...
-Robert King
I don't use EZ Pass for many of the same reasons. Its a government tracking tool that can be used to limit your freedoms in many ways. Untill they find a way to make EZ Pass completely anonemouse w/o it being a hassle (ie not sending in MO's) I might consider getting one. They should be sold from vending machines and you should be able to fill up a numbered account with cash from a kiosk. There sould also be clear and effective ways for you to shield your EZ Pass from government survailence.
Better yet EZ Pass should have an overseas compedator that dosen't have to answer to US search warrents.
Well, I can tell you one way my ass will be busted - when my father gets his EZPass statement at the end of this month and sees a toll collected at the George Washington Bridge - the last time he used the GWB going east was before he got EZP . . .
I was driving down the Palisades Parkway with my friends yesterday and got a little confused when we reached Fort Lee - and I wound up missing the "Last Exit in NJ" and found myself approaching the tollboth for the GWB. Well I had no choice but to keep going, as there was no way to bail out. So I went across, got off at 178th St and went around the bus terminal to get back on going west.
And my father specifically ordered me not to drive to, in, or around the five boroughs . . . anyway he is understanding about things like missing exits or getting on the wrong highway and stuff - it can be confusing.
Just as long as I don't do it again ;-)
There's a simple way to prevent these things:
Call EZ-Pass, add an e-mail to your account, and choose e-mail delivery of statement. I did it, so now my father doesn't get to see my tolls for the many bridges I use.
Or he could have just paid in cash. Don't tell me you don't have 44 somewhere in your car.
I did that once, I ended up paying 40 cents more for the Bayonne and $1 more for the Verazanno. With the new off peak discounts for EZ-Pass customers only, it'd be stupid not to use EZPass.
Especially if you live on Staten Island and ever have a need to go to Brooklyn.
$3.20 vs $6 does it for me.
As to the 'speeding ticket theory', EZPass, by LAW, can't be used for that. Any toll road that uses a ticket system can already do that, and they don't. And likely never will. In fact, Car and Driver printed a column last year about a guy who allegedly got one of those imaginary tickets. The following month they retracted it, and included a letter from the director of the NYS Thruway (or EZPass), which included the point about it being forbidden by law (politicians and their family members don't speed?) and also said it was impossible because the clocks at the booth computers "aren't sychronized".
And the big brother thing is crap. It's more paranoia than anything significant. Other than movies, NO ONE can ever say they've been tracked unconventialally without a court order or secondary device.
And as long as you want to throw bullshit about privacy, everyone has credit cards. And what about those wonderful supermarket discount cards?
-Hank
The government can't track you track you, but they can use EZ Pass to like help prove you committed a crime, lied, saw the assination etc. What if one day I need to commit a crime? I'd want to be able to get away with it. Things like EZ Pass give the government an unfair advantage. I believe that every American has a right to commit crimes and then try to get away with them.
You're only looking increasingly idiotic.
-Hank
Should have got off the road there or a little further south, i.e. 125th ... then you would have had a realy interting story to tell.
My first trip to NYC from CT, I got as far as Westchester. Turned around & went home ... remember old route 15 when it just had a piece of concrete down the middle ? I was driving a 1940 Nash.
Mr t__:^)
I have been a happy E-Z Pass user now for over five years, and it has been both a time AND money saver. As far as it issuing speeding tickets, most states (i.e. NY, NJ, PA for sure) must ticket a driver for speeding, not a car. The only exception is if you blow through a toll booth at 5, and I have seen people go much, much faster without recourse.
As far as hiding from crimes (ahem, Mike), as someone who has been robbed twice in the last year; if it could get my stereo and my $1,000s worth of other stuff back, three cheers for E-Z Pass. Besides, the automated toll booths may have cameras, that could capture you or the car; and a toll agent might place you at the scene too. The computer is just another tool.
This is a free country; and you are not required to sign up for it. So don't. But please, stay out of the clearly signed lanes so those of us that are secure enough to use the system may do so.
The violation speed for the EZPass toll booths is 22mph. Faster then that, you risk a fine from EZPass. But just like red-light cameras, they can't tell who was driving. So your EZPass account takes a hit. You can't fight it, since the technology used to clock you in this instance is nearly infallable. A laser measures the length of your car, and a tredle counts your axles. If the time between axles is too short, you get a violation letter. You also get a violation for an out-of-class vehicle, such as a van or a 3-axle vehicle with a car 2-axle tag.
-Hank
22? Seems like a funny speed, but kind of makes sense. Is that method used at all EZPass installs, or just the PA's/etc?
(If you don't mind me asking; was this discovery trial and error, or documented somewhere?)
I've got a freind who used to work in the imaging department at EZPass. He spent his days looking at data on vehicles and their plates, and determining if a violation should be issued, or if it was a non-payer.
-Hank
The article was published yesterday & I found one of our SubTalk friends mentioned by name. Is someone keeping a list of Sub/Bus Talkers that make it in print or on film ?
Sounds like another job for heypaul ? Or at the very least he'll have something witty to say about it.
Mr t__:^)
Add radio to that list too as some of us have been on radio.
On Thursday, September 23, 1999 I was written about in the Globe & Mail and interviewed on CBC radio's Here & Now programme hosted by Avril Benoit concerning my presentation at a TTC commission meeting the previous day where I gave a speech urging the TTC to keep their three historic streetcars and return the PCCs to good working condition and consider eventually restoring the Peter Witt ($100,000 has subsequently been budgeted to get started on it) rather than dispose of them as recommended in a staff report.
On Thursday, July 22, 2000 I was mentioned in an article about the opening of the 509 Harbourfront streetcar line, along with several other local streetcar fans. The next day, Friday, the day the actual opening ceremonies were held, Rob Lubinski and I were interviewed on CBC radio's Metro Morning programme by Andy Barrie about the opening of the new streetcar line. Having two Robs on the air talking about streetcars with Andy Barrie who is also a "Streetcar Freak" was really fun. My mother had the car radio tuned to CBC while she was driving me down to their studios that morning and we had a good laugh when Andy Barrie said on air that he was going to "talk with some streetcar freaks in the studio about the TTC's new streetcar line" later in the programme.
-Robert King
Good for you Robert, every little bit help with the public conscience.
heypaul eat you hart out.
Mr t__:^)
When i was heading home from work & getting ready to get off at Whitlock Av where i live & i saw R33 92??-92??-92??-92??-9245-9244-9279-9278-9226-9227 heading to Hunt Point Av. Last time R33 92xx ran on #6 line was back in 1986 before they went to though GOH. BTW: i haven't not seen R142a running for last 2 days & did the pull off the road??
Peace Out
David Justiniano
That's very unusual to see the R-33 redbirds running on the No. 6 line. When I've seen redbirds on that line they are usually the R-29s or the R-36s (both World's Fair and Mainline) on the No. 6 line.
BMTJeff
Yes Redbirds from Woodlawn are running on the No.6 Line. Also the R142A'S on the No.6 line have been pulled off the road as of 12AM Thursday because of increasing door problems. Some doors open when they feel like it and some doors have not been closing like what happened on my train at 68 Street. It seems like most of the door problems have happened on crowded trains. I do not know when the R142A's will be back on the road but the Redbirds from Woodlawn will be taken there place until there back on the road.
okay... so there's a problem with the new cars and crowds... so run the new cars during the midnight to 5 am hour when ridership is lowest ( or whenever ridership is lowest ) on express lines only... this way: no crowds and less station stops to have the doors open--- problem solved...
by any chance did they tie the door opening motors in with the regenerative power system, in an attempt to recover energy?
That'd be swell for my eyes.. if only there
WAS an Express Route which ran exp. Overnight
Are you saying there was a DOE or the opposite, that some
doors failed to open?
The door system was one of those areas where the TA did not
go over to complete microprocessor / network control. The
cars retain "DC1/5", 22, 24 etc. trainlines, but there is
a digital overlay system to allow real-time status display
and the recycle function. Also, the slimline overhead operators
are new (to the TA).
I vaguely recall the R-68s having door problems when they were new. Can anyone add to this?
Peace,
ANDEE
I think causes of that particular problem was that some careless commuter hold the door when the conductor closes it. They simply don't understand this phase "Stand clear of a closing door"
>>I vaguely recall the R-68s having door problems when they were new. Can anyone add to this?
Yes, I do too. IIRC, a number of R-68's were found to have started rolling out of stations spontaneously with the doors still open at the platform. I also believe this is mentioned briefly in Jim Dwyer's Subway Lives in one of the later chapter's introductory paragraphs; I do not have this book with me right now so I cannot check. Hope this helps:)
The real problem with the R-68 Doors was a production problem. More specifically, the upper door tracks, where the doors 'hang' from, caused the problems. During production, the Mfgr. three different models (Morton, Edwards & Faiveley) Only the morton track seemed to stand up tot he daily wear & tear of NY life. However, during the 12 year SMS, a new type of upper door track was installed on all 425 cars. After a short period of tweeking, no more door problems.
Thank you to James, a new contributor, who has agreed to help with thew LIRR station-by-station pages.
Now all we need is:
Shore Line East
Port Jervis NJT
Pascack Valley NJT
Main and Bergen NJT
Bob Wright is working on the rest of the regional rail lines for SEPTA. Thanks to all who have volunteered so far.
You dont have to be a great author. I can flesh out any comments and I can enhance any photos.(Please- if you have photos send me a set to keep and enclose a sheet of paper referencing the photos and the description EX: 1 on photo back. 1 on sheet of - LIRR Woodhaven Station 1956.
Please send it to me off-site via private e-mail. If You do not want to use your real name then tell me what name (if any) you want used. Also include an e-mail address so others can contact you if they have any comments/questions/feedback.
Unofficially, I am coordinating these projects(With Dave's approval) to avoid duplication.
Can you, as well, make an LIRR signal guide. Or, if it is simple enough, would someone explain it by either email or subtalk? I know, it is just a matter of dots in a pattern, but I don't ride it enough to get what the pattern is.
Any one out there that can help out with this!
While visiting Coney Island Yard today for training at my new job, I found some surprises (things I knew nothing about) that I would like to share with you and in turn add some info to the Museum Page.
I also have a scrap note to add that will be addressed separately.
Here's what I found: 1) Signal Dolly S-02 could be found sitting besides an older Dolly Work Motor on the tracks where Museum Cars are located. The older Dolly Work Motor is a Museum Car. My question is what is the the status of S-02? It no longer sees regular service with the R-22 work motors from 207th Street Yard?
2) World's Fair Motor 5655 is showing evidence of work on the body as it is getting fresh coats of olive green paint.
3) R-16s Really Rock! 6305 has had some olive green paint applied to it's body, which will improve the car's appearance.
4) Does olive green paint rule the roost? I think so! While passing the paint booth, I observed yet another Museum Car. It was none other that R-4, Car 491 (ex 401) looking better than ever. Is this the same car that came out of Jamaica Yard some time ago? Looks good, I wander about how the car is mechanically. Inquiring minds want to know.
5) On the Museum Roster, R-30 8392 is on the list. 8392 and another R-30 8401 are cars used for the Fire Training School. Somewhere on this site is a picture of a pair of R-30s sitting in the yard beside each other with the blind ends showing. The picture shows 8392 and 8401.
That's all for now! May the webmaster take notice of this and update the roster accordingly.
-Stef
Ripta42HopeTunnel and Doug BMTman reported sometime ago, on what they found down on the piers after a visit to the South Brooklyn Railway and NY Cross Harbor. There was a mention of some Blue Rail Handling Cars (more or less older Continuous Welded Rail Cars) which were on the Scrap Line in the SBK Yard were no where to be found when Doug and Company visited the area yet again and didn't see them on NY Cross Harbor Property.
I found them! They weren't scrapped much to my surprise, the blue rail handlers have received a reprieve, and returned to TA property at CI Yard. Just to tell you how much of a reprieve, the blue cars are no longer blue, they're now yellow! While in training today, I heard the rumbling of a diesel locomotive, passing the training facility. As I passed the paint booth on my way out there was additional equipment inside with 491, which I hadn't seen earlier in the day. The rail handler cars were brought in for paint work. They look like new with the yellow paint. The only question I have is why the reprieve? NYCT was ready to dispose of them.
-Stef
Yes, Stef, you're right! A friend of mine in NYCT told me the same thing yesterday. He said that the cars were "rescued" and returned to service -- without an explanation.
BTW, they are NOT continuous rail cars, but rather rail-weilding cars (they have their own on-oboard power generators). My guess is that someone in NYCT made a 'boo-boo' or otherwise the powers-that-be saw that the cars still had potential in the MOW department.
Good News all around!
Thanks for the report, Stef!
Oh? I thought that these were considered to be CWR's. Perhaps not! One thing's for sure, it's not impossible to bring equipment back from the dead.
-Stef
Cool!
Railpace Hot News has the following item:
"AMTRAK ANNOUNCES QUIET CARS: Amtrak is adding "quiet cars" to some of its Northeast trains after protests by passengers that beeper and cellphone-using travelers were preventing them from taking naps. The national passenger rail service said a quiet car had been added on the 9 a.m. Metroliners out of Washington, D.C. and New York, for those wanting to get away from constant ringing and beeping. The quiet cars are provided for people hoping to catch up on their sleep but the railroad had no plans to add quiet cars during peak hours. (Steve Benkovitz - posted 2/02)"
Will other forms of noise be limited as well (no babies or young children, must whisper)? I've always thought commuter rail should do this (charge a little extra and disallow admittance after all window seats are filled on off-peak trains, all seats on peak trains).
Will other forms of noise be limited as well (no babies or young children, must whisper)? I've always thought commuter rail should do this
That would be the RIGHT way of doing it, but you know the irrational backlash against cell phones.
I just can't understand it.
Speaking of a back-lash against cell-phones........
http://www.abcnews.go.com/sections/world/DailyNews/saudi_cellphone010203.html
John will LOVE that story
Peace,
ANDEE
AMEN. Relief from the users of "microwave brain warmers"
Peace,
ANDEE
I disagree.
It's total hypocrisy that cellular phones are banned and not other types of noise.
And the whole waves cause cancer thing has been debunked, although, everybody who has died from cancer in the United States in the last century has been exposed to electromagnetic radiation (you know those wires in your walls that power those magic lights?).
>>>It's total hypocrisy that cellular phones are banned and not other types of noise. <<<
ALL types of extraneous noise should be banned. I shoud've made that clearer>
>>>And the whole waves cause cancer thing has been debunked<<
Not to my satisfaction.
>>>(you know those wires in your walls that power those magic lights?). <<<
But they aren't up against my head.
Peace,
ANDEE
But they aren't up against my head.
Many more wires produce more radiation than a cell phone antenna.
A home microwave, for instance. And if you can see a microwave antenna (it looks like a drum on a tower, usually) from where you are, you're being bombarded with many times the radiation of a cell phone.
The biggest hypocrisy of the ban-cell-phones types is that they don't admit they do everything they hate others doing.
-Hank
About two weeks ago I bought myself one of the number plates from car 7768 at the Transit Museum shop in Grand Central. I brought it home and started looking through all the R-26 pictures on the website, and that's when I noticed that the tail on the number 6 looked different in the pictures than it did on the plate. Mine looks sort of blocky, like the one in this picture, but the pictures of 7768 show a different kind of 6.
So here are my questions:
1 - Has 7768 been scrapped, or did they just change the plates?
2 - Why are the number fonts different?
3 - How long do these plates usually last?
They got NUMBER PLATES in Grand Central!??!
I was told we had to go to NYTM to get that!
Where in the Grand Central Store are they located?
NYTM is located near Rita Aid Store or ask someone who work in Grand Central know where is NYTM. Buddy i alway go there once a month & sometimes they have number plates. Last time i was there was last month & the numbers they have was 75xx, 77xx & few 49xx. BTW it cost only $5 each number plates
Peace Out
David Justiniano
>>>NYTM is located near Rita Aid Store
I'm sure Rita is happy about that! 8-)
Peace,
ANDEE
The NYTM store at GCT is right by the west escalators. It is situatted between the Station Master's Office and the Discovery Channel store. The nearest street access is at 42nd Street and Vanderbilt Avenue. The nearest subway entrance is the one nearest the Grand Central Shuttle. The nearest track is number 36.
In answer to your questions:
1 - Most of these plates were changed during the graffiti craze of the '70s. Almost all of the plates that the museum has been/is selling are from Redbirds (R21 thru R36). I have seen a few R42 plates as well as some R44 plates. The R44 plates were from the 1991 overhaul when they also changed the numbering from 100-387 to 5000 numbers.
2 - Some of the plates were from cars made at different times, by different car companies (ACF, SLC, etc).
3 - The original plates were baked enamel over steel and were very durable. They could be affected by rust, but since they were taken out of service, look pretty good for their age. It's good that they were removed, since they can now be sold. I have about 25 in my collection. The replacements are a hodge-podge of stick-on numbers, and painted steel plates which have some different styles of numbers depending on when and how they were painted. The TA has functionality in mind, not looks.
My trip started on NJT Atlantic City to Philly train 4608, which left Lindenwold at 7:37, one minute late. Passed PATCO’s Woodcrest station at 7:40 and estimated the free parking lots to be ¾ full and the dollar lot ¼ full (Pork had posted his intention to park there around 9:30). After crossing the Delaware on the Delair bridge, we arrived at Frankford Junction as an HHP-8 led train headed eastbound at 8:00. We stopped prior to entering the Corridor. At 8:02 it was announced that we were waiting for “some” Amtrak trains to clear. One passed westbound at 8:03 and another eastbound at 8:04. We entered the corridor at 8:05 and arrived at 30th Street on time. Several Acela trainsets and several HHP-8’s were seen in the storage yard as our train approached the station.
I went out to the parking lot overlooking the yard and approach tracks north of the station to take pictures, and while out there the paper on which I was taking notes blew away down onto the tracks).
A highlight was seeing a short CSX business train (one Geep and two cars) on the former B&O track on the east bank of the Schuylkill River. It departed before I could get to a decent photo location.
I met up with Keystone Pete, who came in on train 181 at 9:30 and we planned our day. He said that a Philly based SubTalker had emailed him asking for a rendesvous suggestion if our itinerary was established, but alas it wasn’t. Both of us would have liked to meet him, as we both agreed that his posts are very informative and exhibit extensive knowledge of the Philly transit scene. I introduced Pete to the aforementioned parking lot, and he shot off several pictures until his camera batteries died. Fortunately, the camera shop across the aisle from the SEPTA ticket office had his batteries. We bought day passes and took the R6 to Norristown, then the P&W to 69th Street. After lunch at Mickey Deez in Upper Darby, we photographed the Media and Sharon Hill trolleys, then took the Market Street el/subway to 15th Street, the BSS to Walnut/Locust, and PATCO to Lindenwold (Pete’s original post said he wanted to ride PATCO, BSS and P&W). Returning from Lindenwold to 8th & Market, we then took the Ridge Ave/Broad Street Subway to Olney, where we got off at 3:30 on the chance that we might see the Philly SubTalker mentioned earlier. We walked the southbound platform from one end to the other and back, but didn’t find him (we don’t know what he looks like, but he could have recognized us [an aging foamer and a normal guy with a camera]). We continued on to Fern Rock and got a ride around the loop. A Regional Rail train was in the station as we went past. We rode to Pattison Ave, so Pete could ride the entire line. We exited and took some pix of the soon-to-be-late Veterans Stadium, then headed north again. Pete said he was ready to take the next train to Harrisburg, so I left him at Walnut-Locust and took PATCO back to Lindenwold. A good time was had by both.
Did you notice that some of the Amtrak high speed trains and locos are now coming 'wrapped'? I've seen a couple at 30th with blue plastic 'wrappers'. Don't know why.
When our P&W car went under the Trenton Cutoff, we saw a freight train with a NS Operation Lifesaver engine.
Our PATCO train to Lindenwold was a 2-car train of original Budd equipment: 213 and 214. The trip back to Philly was a 4-car train with 214 and 213 leading two Bombardiers.
They aren't Bombardier cars, they were built by Vickers Canada.
Thanks. I knew that.
This little gem has being the rounds lately, and is too good to pass up:
*********************
CHICAGO (AP) -- Two Amtrak engineers were arrested last week after an altercation in the cab of a Los Angeles-to-Chicago train, railroad officials said Friday.
No passengers were endangered, but the engineers ''compromised service and an investigation and a disciplinary procedure are under way,'' Amtrak said in a statement.
The men were arrested by police after stopping in Needles, Calif., on Jan. 24, officials said.
The train's engineer called Needles police before the train reached the town's station, asking police to meet the train and arrest his assistant engineer, The Washington Post reported Friday.
The men might have been involved in a fist fight that involved a dispute over smoking in the train's cab, the newspaper reported, citing railroad sources it did not identify.
Neither engineer was identified.
Sources told the Post that police officers did not want to arrest either man, but each insisted on a ''citizen arrest'' of the other, so both were taken to jail.
The train was delayed for an hour and 38 minutes until another engineer arrived.
*********************
This begs the obvious question - who was driving the train while they were beating each other up?
Is it me, or is Amtrak starting to get really sucky again?
That's exactly what Amtrak needs, doesn't it? At least one more, so as to have a matching set of black eyes.
Sigh...
What are the duties of an "assistant engineer"?
You mean, besides beating up the chief engineer?
and providing tobacco products
Forgot about that one!
I don't know who had "assistant engineers" first. It was a big idea brought up in the BLE paper..of course would take the UTU man out of the cab, the head brakeman or conductor . Montana Rail Link, my last employer, started business with this concept at the end of Oct. 1987.
Both men in the cab are normally engineers (although in the beginning there weren't enough so the assistant was usually an ex-BN brakeman or conductor.).The duties of an assistant engineer are, if both are engineers: to do all the jobs that the fireman and/or head brakeman would have done in the best. Checking on the units, restarting them, shutting down as necessary, sharing responsibilities for safe operation and rules compliance in addition [on MRL anyway]any work on the cars like re-hooking hoses, cutting out brakes, checking hotboxes,setting out cars if necessary, etc. Hand lining switches as necessary, copying written instructions via radio. Many more items; if both men are engineers and have a good relationship usually they split the running and the ground work., etc.
Smoking in the cab: Some RR's forbid it completely; policy on Montana Rail link was if any crew member objected it wasn't to be done. If it were then a rules violation could be reported rsulting in usually just a verbal warning with further action bringing discipline. I'll keep my opinions to myself for now; usually the simple way was to go to another cab if one wanted to smoke; a fight wasn't necessary.True both crew persons are supposed to be in the lead cab, but normally safety isn't compromised and other units can be checked on.
Back to the first part: I'm referring to MRL as a two-person on the train operation, hence one engineer does the "trainman" work when he isn't running, or all of it if he doesn't run.
So, it comes down to a jurisdictional thing between unions, whether you have an assistant engineer or a brakeman or fireman or conductor?
It was originally; when the BLE proposed the 2-engineer, nobody else on the train concept. The UTU went thru the roof about it, of course knowing what it meant. Not every railroad went for it.
Montana Rail Link has no UTU; even the switchmen, meaning in other words all operating employees, are BLE. I was familiar with the concept of course having been in NYCT-TWU, but then TWU represented almost all system employees. [BLE doesn't on MRL]
At one point you could have 4 unions on one train, depending on the property. Engineer: BLE[engineers only], Fireman:Bro.of Loco Firemen and enginemen..notice it didn't say engineers; Conductor: Order of Railway Conductors, Brakemen: Bro. of Rwy. Trainmen.IIRC all three of the latter and the Switchmen's Union of North America, became UTU in the late 60's or early 70's.
Well, since Amtrak is owned by the feds, and smoking is banned on fed property...
-Hank
Amtrak trains usually only have one person in the Cab. An assistant engineer would be someone who is trying to qualify on a particular route and needs to ride up front w/ the real engineer. As to the question of who was driving the train, most RR locos don't have a constant pressure deadman handle/pedal. If they are on a piece of track where human input isn't needed much engineers can get up and dance around (as stated in Hot Times) or engage in fistacuffs.
As to the question of who was driving the train, most RR locos don't have a constant pressure deadman handle/pedal.
Another myth explodes.
The D is using the Brighton express southbound, the B is using the Sea Beach / 4th ave express northbound.
when i was leaving the dekalb avenue station in brooklyn, i stopped to read a flashing display with changing messages which promoted escalator safety... i stopped to copy them down, so that i could post them here as a public service... there were about 10 different messages...unfortunately, they changed quicker than i could copy, so it took several cycles of the announcements to copy them all down... i had my bike with me, and i suppose i was blocking the entrance to the escalator... that didn't give people the right to push past me, nor was it my fault that several people tripped over my bike...
nevertheless here are the safety suggestions for escalator usage...
1. escalators are for passengers only
2. face forward... adults, hold handrail
3. children should hold grown-ups hand not hand rail
4. step on or off quickly... do not ride off
5. never run up np(???) or down on escalator
6. never sit on steps or handrails
7. attend your children... hold your child...fold your stroller
8. never push strollers on escalators while riding
9. never rest umbrellas on escalator steps
10. avoid the sides of the escalator
11. no large package or objects should be carried on escalators
have a great day
ride safe
after about 10 minutes i finally copied all the suggestions down... i got kind of dizzy from reading the message board, so i did not ride my bike up the escalator as i normally do... that was very fortunate as there was an escalator safety compliance officer standing at the top of the escalator ready to write a summons for anyone who disobeyed the 11 rules of safe escalator conduct...
Did he at least offer you a little oxygen after your ten trips on the escalator (you must have been a bit woozy)?
no actually, i was copying the instructions while i was standing on the platform right before the escalator started...
i did get woozy in macys where i was riding the wooden escalators between the 3rd and 9th floors for about 45 minutes...
by the way, do you think that there is any danger in picking up germs from the escalator handrails?... just to be safe, i stopped off at the men's room after each complete trip on the escalator... although, i am worried about the door handles leading into and out of the restrooms... i spoke to my psychiatrist and he recommended that i wear the same type of latex gloves that he puts on when he shakes my hand...
Restroom door handles, toilet seats etc. are "fomites," places where germs can be left. Mostly viruses which can cause colds, but also other bugs which give you diarrhea. Wash your hands after you use a bathroom, before you eat, and otherwise try not to worry about it...
Arrgh! Like a bad jingle that keeps repeating and repeating
in my head! Thanks a lot, Paul. Maybe you can do the Union
Square gap filler announcement next.
Hey Jeff, I though that was my job ?!?
Thank your lucky stars that they don't talk. Like the escalators at 34th/6th/IND, Penn and 5th AVE/IND.
Peace,
ANDEE
Trains run every 24 minutes (the magic single-track number)bet. QP and TS, according to the site. There was no advanced warning, so this is probably why they didn't close it altogether. They say "avoid the 7, stay on the F N R." They mention the F via 63rd, use the N at QP or R at Roos for TS, the F at Roos for 5th, N/R to 59 to 456 for GCT.
I think it's only in effect from 10:00 p.m. until 8:00 a.m. Friday and Saturday nights.
Was just sworn in today, and begin with the Feb. 26th class. A Newsday was laying around, and I saw this article on toy trains http://www.newsday.com/coverage/current/business/friday/nd5802.htm
During a break for lunch, I ran over to Manhattan Mall and ate at Arthur Treachers. I asked a security guard what was going on with the Food court and he said it was being moved down to the 3rd floor.
After finishing up last at 6pm, I went over to K-Mart, and saw that there are a couple of those full color LED signs on the 7th Av. corner of Macy's (advertises perfume and jewelery)
Congratulations and welcome to the world of the tenuous indication lamp and the missing board of finger pointing! :)
>>>and saw that there are a couple of those full color LED signs on the 7th Av. corner of Macy's <<<
Those full color, 2 story, Spectracolor boards are state of the art and cost Million$. BTW thanks for noticing, I am one of the people that program them.
Peace,
ANDEE
Oh yeah? I'm fascinated by them, and how the colors are mixed. I just stand and glance at them in Times Sq., and now it is finally spreading beyond there. (Still wonder why MSG hasn't upgraded from those pale incandescent boards yet.) Well, I guess it's too late for the R-143, but I wish you could convince the TA to start getting full color LED signs.
I sent you an e-mail per your posting, be sure to read it and reponsd to it!! Thanks and Peace, Thomas :>
So where are the cops at the 34th street IND/BMT Path station? I must have seen about 10 homeless people sleeping there, right around PATH and Manhattan mall.
I've seen them hauling off homeless people routinely; the homeless come back. Once, I even saw an officer bantering with one of the "regulars" before taking him away.
Maybe they should make the Manhattan Mall a homeless hotel!!! :-0
Unfortunately that is right! One time I ahd the same homeless guy removed THREE times in two hours. They finally forced him to go to a shelter but he came back the next night. They come back as soon as the cops leave! Many cops finally stop coming unless the person is an EDP (Emotionally Disturbed Person), Intoxicated, anti-social behavior(undressing, defecating, etc.). Even then, they'll be back.
One time I ahd the same homeless guy removed THREE times in two hours. They finally forced him to go to a shelter but he came back the next night. They come back as soon as the cops leave! Many cops finally stop coming unless the person is an EDP (Emotionally Disturbed Person), Intoxicated, anti-social behavior(undressing, defecating, etc.). Even then, they'll be back.
About a year and a half ago, I saw a skell do numero uno near the PATH entrance, with many people around AND right in front of a PA police officer. The cop spun him around and body-slammed him into a wall, so people couldn't see what was happening, but did not arrest him - just hauled him up the stairs and let him go. The skell, by the way, was one of the skell-iest I've ever seen. His clothes were literal rags and he was missing one eye - he had a hollow eye socket.
I remember a guy used to beg in front of Macy's with two hollow eye sockets, but that was 25 years ago. Doubtful its the same guy with one eye grown back...
The little park above 32nd Street has been a longtime home for the homeless, though the construction project begun last year disrupted that arrangement. They many have just decided to take their business below ground, and decided to stay there when winter rolled around.
>>>I remember a guy used to beg in front of Macy's with two hollow eye sockets, but that was 25 years ago. <<<
That man died about 8 years ago. He was never threatning, always polite and developed freindships with quite a few of the people in the area.
Peace,
ANDEE
I remember him! From when I worked messenger service back in 1972.
Does anyone remember "Aqualung", the guy who used to live in Madison Square Park, and talk to himself - he looked just like the guy on the record album. This was around 1972 through 1974, I would guess he's long dead by now; he was old even then. AND also - Old Mary, the bane of the "F" train - If she was camped out at 179th Street, you could smell her at Parsons Bvld. One of her favourite spots was dead center in Queens Plaza, city bound platform, she would set up house on the benches and NOBODY would go near her. She liked the R44's. You would also see her in an A/C'd Slant if there was one. Always the "F", never the "E", never on a R-6 or R-7 either. I felt very sorry for her, she needed medical attention but never got any.
wayne
[About a year and a half ago, I saw a skell do numero uno near the PATH entrance, with many people around AND right in front of a PA police officer.]
What's with the use of this term 'skell'. Seems like you watch waaaay too much 'NYPD Blue'.
BMTman
The term was around long before NYPD blue and is a fairly accurate euphenism for "bum", etc.
We saw an "L Skell" heading out to Canarsee, who made his bed in Car #4448, absolutely filthy, and putrid to the max. You'd think they'd bother to take a simple bath - That's part of the problem - there aren't enough places available to do just that! And on another occasion another "L Skell" was enjoying his chicken lunch in Car #4411 - he was dropping his bones all over the place and making a mess, THEN he did something ELSE - he lit up a smoke! They had his mangy butt hauled off at Bway Jct and we tossed his trash out the train door after him.
wayne
Maybe he is keeping an eye out for a good place to wiz?
avid
Seems like the homeless problems in the city just haven't impoved much. They really need to clean the place up, these homeless cause crime, can spread disease, and create a bad image for the city.
They should lock them up for their own good if they refuse to go to a shelter. Yeah, what ever happened to that policy?
>>>They should lock them up ...<<<
It is not a crime to be homeless. Although, many think it is.
Peace,
ANDEE
Well adequate shelters for homeless would also help. I don't favor locking up homeless people either, but they really should be off thes treets.
There ARE shelters for them. They don't like them, they go back to the streets.
Even a NYC railfan, ERA official, etc became homeless about a year ago. Retired, shared an apartment , roommates moved out and he just couldn't afford the rent by himself.
Police turned him over to welfare, he was hospitalized then placed in a nursing home ironically right across the hall from my dying mother (last March). Nurse mentioned my name and Arnold Joseph to him, he didn't remember me but did know Arnold. So I called Arnold and told him "Al" had been found. I don't know what became of him later.
There are a lot of people I don't feel sorry for but then have to remember it could be me some day..I hope not.
Why not redistribute your wealth?
-Hank
Well wealth can be re-distributed so adequate shelters can be built to house the homeless.
Well wealth can be re-distributed so adequate shelters can be built to house the homeless
Just providing housing won't work. As I've said before, the only effective way to rid the subways and streets of skells (or the homeless, if you want to be p.c.) is to (1) re-criminalize vagrancy (thereby allowing the police to arrest someone having "no visible means of support," as in the olden days) and (2) make it much easier for the government to commit people involuntarily to mental hospitals. And I also believe that most people, however much they recoil at the sight and odor of skells, would be very reluctant to give the government those powers, as the potential for abuse is enormous.
You might say that occasional skells are an unavoidable price for living in a free society.
That's a nice closing statement.
The vagrancy laws are horribly flawed since you can have a frenchman person who hasn't bathed in a few days and wearing dirty clothes mistaken for a skell, even though he has a home and just was incredibly busy or away from that home for awhile.
Involuntarily committing people to mental hospitals is a horrible infringement upon freedom. People should not be convicted of anything unless they have committed a crime. Then they can be sent to an asylum.
I don't appreciate aggressive panhandlers, but I do have sympathy. I have heard, but I don't know if it's true, since it was well before my time, that Nixon abolished federally funded mental hospitals and sent them all into the streets. I do know that Europe, with its abundant social safety net, has almost no homeless people. I think it is a shameful chapter on our society. Our shelters require that men be separated from women and children, which in many cases seems to make sense, but it also especially hurts families who "have legitimate morals," but are down on their luck. Another condition on the homeless to enter shelters is that they give up alcohol or drugs, however, they are offered no treatment. This seems like a legitimate condition, but if they slip up; or more often, if they refuse to go along with the difficult conditions; they prefer to chance it on the street. What are we to do? If I were my age, homeless, and addicted to heroin, I would probably choose a warm subway station to a fascist boarding-home. But then the policy makers know nothing of the reality of these people (not that I claim to either). But I am constantly reminded of my Romanian friend's aunt who visited Philly (and the US) for the first time this summer. She spoke no English, but he, his mother/her sister, and I could get by with her in Romanian/Italian/French. When she first saw a homeless person on the street, despite coming from a very poor country in the former Soviet Block, this quiet doctor (who had lived as well in Bahrain and Bangladesh) vomited in disgust, and demanded to return to Europe immediately. How were we to argue? Yes, we are an insensitive, heartless, capitalist country. But we're (monetarily) richer, right, so we must be right. Sorry for the tirade, but on transit issues, she was impressed by the MFL, but was dissaponted that it only served Afican-Americans on one end and poor white Catholics on the other, without extending to the "power-people" suburbs.
God, were they bothering you? No? Then what is your problem?
Peace,
ANDEE
They stink
Not all the time.
Peace,
ANDEE
It gives the area a bad image.
Homeless people are a fact of life. I can tell you one thing, having worked in that area for 15 years, the problem is much better now than it used to be. But a least you see them. Most people don't.
Peace,
ANDEE
Got out of the F and walked upstairs to the 7 around 4pm. The platform was dangerously crowded, you couldn't get through and there was a large group of at least 50 Korean kids making noise and blocking access to the more empty front of the platform. I had to fight my way through. After a 10 minute wait a train finally came.
Sure would be nice if they had a Queens bypass subway right to the city line!
Next time go back to the booth and tell the station agent to call the police because there is a crowd condition on the platform with a group of (insert description of group) blocking the platform. The police will respond to a "crowd condition" and keep /restore order.I have almost had to call the riot police several times but I kept the station orderly by taking pre-emptive initiative.
One time I was doing a gate job at Hoyt IRT Brooklyn and no trains were running. I asked the s/a to opent he block tickets and to give me a vook of tickets and I'd hand them out. A police officer happened to come by and asked what was happening. They agreeded to help. I gave them the tickets and got more. I was then asked to close the wheels and I asked the booth to close the wheels and give me the barricade tape. I then took an audio hailer (megaphone) and cleared the other side. Supervisor shows up and comments on how orsderly my station was. Every other Brooklyn IRT station was bedlam and chaos with police trying to keep order. I got a compliment from the Line Superintendent and supervisor changed my hours to pay me for the emergency. All in a day's work! I have done such actions quite a few times, eaxch time getting thanks from the s/a in the booth and supervision.
It is easier to keep order by not letting it get out of hand to begin with.
I regret you had problems. Next time go back to the booth and ask for police.
The thing is at the 74th-Broadway station you have to venture downstairs to the booth, and don't forget if these kids find out who called the cops on them, you may be in for a beating.
Many people in the know, know that Flushing is a bad area and the kids (who got off at Main street) are some of the worst in Queens.
The 74th-Broadway station is always a mess between 3 and 4pm when the "Flushing menaces" get loose. I should just avoid that station at that time.
And Im sure they avoid YOU. What a loser.
"Many people in the know, know that Flushing is a bad area and the kids (who got off at Main street) are some of the worst in Queens."
All of them are bad!? I sure thats not true. The area is bad after school like so many other areas where school kids are. If its so bad STOP GOING THERE. Take the LIRR. Stop complaining already. Were sick of it.
Many people in the know, know that Flushing is a bad area and the kids (who got off at Main street) are some of the worst in Queens.
BULLSHIT. Any place where you go is a bad area, not because you cause it, but because every place that's not a utopia to you is bad.
Hmmm, every place? There are good areas in the city. Chinatown, Union Square, Upper East Side, and lower Manhattan, as well as the southern half of Staten Island.
You just seem to only be listening to the negative things I say.
True, I don't care for Queens, Brooklyn, or the Bronx. In general I just don't feel as safe in those areas. And I think statistics may prove that.
>>>You just seem to only be listening to the negative things I say. <<<
You ONLY say negative things
Peace,
ANDEE
> One time I was doing a gate job at Hoyt IRT Brooklyn and no trains were running.
Why were no trains running?
- Lyle Goldman
water main break in lower Manhattan ahd the 2 and 3 out from CHambersd to Atlantic.
>>>Sure would be nice if they had a Queens bypass subway right to the city line! <<<
UUUUM, the Queens/Nassau border IS the city line.
Peace,
ANDEE
So? Why does that contradict anything he's saying?
Because of his obvious Queens bias.
Peace,
ANDEE
Because of his obvious Queens bias.
He has an obvious bias against Nassau and Manhattan too. Against Sun III too.
>>>He has an obvious bias against Nassau and Manhattan too. Against Sun III too. <<<
He seems to have a bias against everything.
He reminds me of the comic book character Sad Sack with his grey cloud following him everywhere.
What's the Sun III reference about?
Peace,
ANDEE
You know the method in science fiction of referring to planets in foreign star systems by naming the star followed by the order of the planet from the star?
Earth is the third planet from the star known as Sun (no other name for it that isn't so terracentric: Earth-centric).
I guess I didn't want to say Earth for some reason.
THX
>>>Got out of the F and walked upstairs to the 7 around 4pm. The platform was dangerously crowded, ...<<<
4pm...we call that rush hour...it's what people who work for a living put up with daily.
Peace,
ANDEE
I've used that station numerous times at rush hour, I never saw it quite that bad.
7 line wasn't the only victim who faces problem in the city of NY. The Lexington Line is the worst when it come to overcrowded trains and platforms on the 4,5,6 line during rush hour. Speaking of daily commuting crisis!
7 line wasn't the only victim who faces problem in the city of NY. The Lexington Line is the worst when it come to overcrowded trains and platforms on the 4,5,6 line during rush hour.
Actually, if you go by the published load factors, the Queens Blvd "E" and "F" trains are the most overcrowded.
I gotta agree with you, nothing beats the crowding on the Lex. The trains are really packed, and the platforms (esp at 42nd and 14th) are dangerously overcrowded.
So what is it gonna take to get the 2nd ave subway?
Sure would be nice if they had a Queens bypass subway right to the city line!
I think it's called the LIRR.
Now if only LIRR would take Metrocards.....
I have an idea. I think LIRR should have a $2 fare when riding within city limits, $3 at peak hours.
The E and F lines are overcrowded, so let them have people board at Jamaica,Forest Hills,Kew Gardens, or Woodside and pay a $2 fare, which could ease congestion on the Queens Blvd line for example.
Especially at Woodside, seems like that station is under-utilized.
On the Port Washington line, $2 fares could ease congestion on the 7 line. And I think LIRR would gain money in the end from increased city ridership. I know LIRR is a suburban railroad but they should have a better deal for people in Queens.
However what would you do with the already crowded cars as they enter the city?
Well hopefully the GCT connection would ease that, but it's still years away.
And then you gotta have a 2nd ave subway built by then.
On the property tonight heading up to the East as of 2100 hours, with locomotives OL903 and OL909, RD329 (ex R-14), and Loco 76 taking up the end. 6381-85 will be here tomorrow night. Yes, they are being delivered to my house....
On a side note, 6411-15 are out of service as of this evening. They should be at 207th Street getting their trucks examined and worked on if necessary.
-Stef
What is the problem with the trucks?
How is training. e-mail me off-site.
It seems that the trip cock assemblies on the trucks are defective, according to one of our SubTalk Posters. They're defective. Shop personnel are looking at the trucks for defects.
I'll send you some mail.
-Stef
Hey Stef i saw #6411-#6420 this morning heading north while i was heading to work going south. Also what wrong with R142 truck??
Peace Out
David Justiniano
As I was explaining to Subway Buff, the trucks are being examined by shop personnel for defects. It seems that the trip cock assemblies are not working, rather they are breaking off, or so one of our SubTalk Posters explains to me. They need to take a good look at the truck and make any repairs or modifications necessary, and get them back on the road.
-Stef
Thanks, Stef. I forgot to give you a "head's up" about the delivery. Canarsie Shawn tipped me off this morning about CP's drop off at Fresh Pond early Friday a.m.
BTW, my NY&A source was correct about the delivery schedule of the R-142's (Fridays look like the day of choice).
BMTman
I shoud be seeing 6381-6385 heading to Linden this afternoon, if they following the same schedule. It's pretty interesting seeing the NY&A push them on their own wheels after seeing CP bring them down on the flatcars.
About two weeks ago I caught half of Friday's delivery heading over there. The first thing I saw was an NY&A switcher pulling the empty flatcars away from the yard. Then about a half hour later, here came the R142's.
Shawn.
Flatcars leaving now!
Shawn
Thanks for the tip, Shawn!
I'm heading over to Livonia & Junius around 2:00...report what I see later today.
BMTman
See my other post somewhere at the top of the index. I posted right after the R142's left Fresh Pond Yard.
Shawn.
its probably just the t.p. that is defective and then could've more problems towards the truck. thats what i feel.
Tonight/Sat. morning the History Channel program, "This Week in History", will cover the opening of Grand Central Terminal, one of four stories on the program.
1:00 am ET - Sat., Feb 3rd (Friday night/Saturday morning),
This Week in History: Noriega; Grand Central Terminal Opens; Yalta Conference
This week's stories include:
February 5, 1988, the U.S. indicts Panamanian strongman and dictator Manuel Noriega on drug trafficking and racketeering charges;
New York City's Grand Central Terminal opens on February 3, 1913;
February 4-11, 1945, the three chief Allied leaders--Churchill, Stalin, and an ailing Roosevelt--meet at Yalta to define a new world order;
February 2, 1892, a patent for a "bottle sealing device" is awarded to William Painter
I want to know which is better to use MVM or Station Booth to get a metrocard? Give us your option about MVM or Station Booth.
Peace Out
David Justiniano
c) Tokens!!
Not surprising. Maybe you should get a Super 8 camera to replace your camcorder too!
Peace,
ANDEE
MVMs all the way. I haven't dealt with a booth for over a year!
Peace,
ANDEE
I go to the newsstand next to the MVM and get a Metrocard in about 10 seconds, instead of waiting on line at either the Token booth or the MVM. At Penn Station recently, I saw a line of about 8 people waiting to use that Metrocard dispensing machine with the ridiculous video screen. I went to Hudson News two feet away and bought 8 one-day passes for the 4 of us for 2 days in about the time it has taken me to write about it. And they were wrapped up in plastic wrap so we couldn't accidentally use tomorrow's passes prematurely.
I favor the human (Booth):
1- a human can give you a $6 card with a $20 bill--the machine can not
2- a human can (if caught within six minutes) void a card and issue a new card (unless the card was an unlimited.)
3- a human does not malfunction.
4- a human can give you two or three cards with a single payment: IE you give me two $20 bills and want a $17, $15 and $8 cards- we can do that!
5- a human takes transit checks while the machine does not
6- if we make a mistake we can count the booth funds and if we are wrong (yes- we do make mistakes), we can correct the problem on the spot (EX: You wanted a $17 card and we thought you wanted a $15 card.)
7- You ae not sure what the best option is (Regular on unlimited). We can explain the good and bad of each kind asnd help you decide.
Long live Station Agents!
I favor the human (Booth):
It's your job, you're biased.
a human can give you a $6 card with a $20 bill--the machine can not
No big deal. Use a credit/debit card or buy a more expensive card. Everybody should have a debit card, if not, they're dirt poor (and thus have no money for the subway) or just plain idiots who either use check cashing for their welfare checks or stubbornly hang on to those bank books.
a human can (if caught within six minutes) void a card and issue a new card (unless the card was an unlimited.)
X-plain.
a human does not malfunction.
I guess you never heard of diseases, nervous breakdowns, injuries etc, or are somehow immune to them.
a human can give you two or three cards with a single payment: IE you give me two $20 bills and want a $17, $15 and $8 cards- we can do that!
You can buy as many cards with a machine too, use credit/debit cards, get a receipt and buy a FUN PASS
a human takes transit checks while the machine does not
Irrelevant since TransitCheks come in card form now
if we make a mistake we can count the booth funds and if we are wrong (yes- we do make mistakes), we can correct the problem on the spot (EX: You wanted a $17 card and we thought you wanted a $15 card.)
If a station agent makes a mistake, it is the STATION AGENT'S FAULT! If the machine makes a mistake, it is the user's fault. Machines malfunction less often than machines.
You ae not sure what the best option is (Regular on unlimited). We can explain the good and bad of each kind asnd help you decide.
And hold up the line in the process. There are brochures, the internet, various other literature and even a telephone hotline to help people decide. I would sure be pissed off if a station agent was yakking with an idiot customer instead of helping people who use the booth for its primary purpose.
Long live Station Agents!
I hope for the nice people to have long, healthy lives, but not the position.
>>>2- a human can (if caught within six minutes) void a card and issue a new card (unless the card was an unlimited.) <<<
You have stated yourself, in past posts, that you cannot help aperson once they leave the booth.
You are disqualified from answering this question as you are a S/A and therefore biased.
Peace,
ANDEE
I want to know which is better to use MVM or Station Booth to get a metrocard? Give us your option about MVM or Station Booth.
Well, let's see:
An MVM lets you buy a fun pass, the booth does not.
In an MVM, you can use a credit/debit card to buy Metrocards. No more trip to the ATM before getting your card.
An MVM lets you get a receipt, an agent does not.
An MVM is fast and easy to use, there are many more of them in a station than staffed windows and such you will wait in line less.
The self serve quality appeals to me. It's not like gasoline where you have to leave you car for self-serve, you're out there passing money and getting cards anyway.
Those dollar coins are great. Dollar bills should be eliminated, and $2 bills implemented (eventually $2 coins should replace them, with a $15 MVM change limit using $2 coins).
Maintaining machines costs less than staffing booths, that money is better spent on renovating stations, posting more cops in seedier stations, buying new cars and improving service.
It pains me to agree with you :-) but...
I use the MVMs too, mainly because I only come to the City on occasion and consequently usually need a FunPass. The machine is a pain in the finger - I've lost track of how many times I have to poke that stupid screen to get a FunPass, the decision tree is too long - but it serves the purpose. But I invariably end up at the booth too since I want to get a current map.
And I too am a big fan of the dollar coins. Given the popularity of the $2 bill I'd favor simply bypassing that stage and going directly to a coin. Indeed, I've heard that our neighbors to the north are introducing a $5 coin this year... can one of our Canadian posters confirm (or refute) that?
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
And I too am a big fan of the dollar coins. Given the popularity of the $2 bill I'd favor simply bypassing that stage and going directly to a coin. Indeed, I've heard that our neighbors to the north are introducing a $5 coin this year... can one of our Canadian posters confirm (or refute) that?
Last I heard was the idea got shot down sometime last year. I love (and dearly miss) the Loonie and the Twonie (one and two dollar Canadian coins). Only way coins will ever work down here is if the banknotes are withdrawn from service. Never happen, IMHO...too manmy folks love Ol' George!
For a $5 coin to work, you would probably have to do away with at least the penny if not also the nickel. Too many coin denominations is a real problem. Right now there's the .01,.05,.10, .25, .50, $1 and $2.
Cheers,
PJ Dougherty
Thanks, Peter... interestingly enough, in all my travels to Canada, I've never seen a 50¢ piece - I just assumed there wasn't one. Guess it circulates about as often as our do.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Maintaining machines costs less than staffing booths, that money is better spent on renovating stations, posting more cops in seedier stations, buying new cars and improving service.
Even if it weren't for the several other advantages you cited, this one alone is sufficient to justify installation of MVMs.
I almost always use the MVMs.
MVM. No lines, no interaction w/ people necessary, alot faster.
A mix of both. Not every situation requires a definite one or the other. Some high volume locations could require both. Some extremely isolated locations may require both.
Most of all a THANK YOU would be nice.
I understand civil service positions mean impersonal ( not favoring any one or group over or below another) but it doesn't mean RUDE.
The NYCTA has become a Thankless work place. How sad.
avid
My question is now after it seems lke the NEGLECT of the angels flight & what happened etc..
I have one question to ask....how neglected are the rest of the rolling stock in los angeles is & is riding the rails of los angeles done at ones own risk??..........hmmm..........!!!
Does anybody know if R68/68A ever ran on the Fulton St.Line, Rockaway Line & 8th Ave Line on the A,C,E, lines? Had it also made it north of 168 St?
I know they ran to 207th in 1989 when the was extended there due to an asbestos flood on 8th Av. (I had just gotten off a Greyhound from California, getting out of the Air Force, to find the system in such disarray).
In the snow emergency plan, R-68 sets are to be brought out on the Fulton line to be pulled in passenger service by diesel power. Otherwise, I don't know if they ever ran out there, even out of service.
R68/68A equipment never ran on the A/C/E, but it has run on the 8th Ave and Fulton St lines due to reroutes. And yes the R68/68A equipment has made it to 207 Street. B service would be extended to 207 St (when the B's went to 168) in the event of a major A line service disruption. Also the 68's would have to go past Dyckman St in order to make it into 207 St Yard.
about a year ago, there was a thread here about an emd experimental diesel electric train, that had a real strange looking front engine, and had either passenger cars with the styling of an intercity bus... some of my description may be screwed up, but i think it ran on several different railroads... the pennsy included.....
It was on the Pennsy, NYC, UP, and Rock Island...
Pennsy Aerotrain brochure
Eastbound at Paoli, 1956
Another color shot
from the side
Rock Island
NYC
As the UP City of Las Vegas
PRR color
PRR front view B&W
PRR rear view B&W
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
And all these years, I had thought that FORD made the Edsel. Sure did look like an Edsel ... there's a shot of it moving on one of those "Trains unlimited - the locomotive" shows that runs now on the "History channel" ... the show airs somewhere around 5am on Sunday night. Since that one ran last week, it'll be a few weeks before it shows up again, but it is an amusing looking thing.
Given how short its life on the railroad was, musta been a humongous turd. Sorta like the blasphemy now about the 142's. :)
I always thought it looked like a Cadillac with a glandualr conditon.
Peace,
ANDEE
Heh. Well from what I've read here and checked out on my own, they truly seem to be Edsels on wheels. But an absolutely silly design, at least in retrospect. The "observation car" was even weirder looking than the loco ... looking like the butt of a Pontiac station wagon. I finally know where Freddie Silverman got the idea for "Soopertrain."
>>>I finally know where Freddie Silverman got the idea for "Soopertrain." <<<
Believe it or not I actually have a tape of that HORRIBLE movie. Repackaged as "EXPRESS TO TERROR" but it is indeed "STUPIDTRAIN"
Peace,
ANDEE
That "Love Boat on steel wheels" knockoff was an NBC *series* ... I forget if they made 8 or 16 of them but they were HORRIBLE ... and the Lionel model they used for the train shots was as poorly done as the rest of the shows. But it was the epitome of NBC's popularity for a brief while under Freddy Silverman's control.
One of the Aerotrain's is on display at the Museum of Transport in St. Louis, MO.
"One of the Aerotrain's is on display at the Museum of Transport in St. Louis, MO."
What became of the other set? Preserved or scrapped ?
Bill "Newkirk"
Right. I remember that TV Guide did a special photo-feature on the "Supertrain" model and it was something close to G scale, but the miniature towns, cars and other passing railroads were O gauge. It ran on a unrealistic "super-wide ROW" and they took serious liberty with the scale ratios, obviously.
The entire show was probably created by Silverman & Co. on a drinking binge.
BMTman
Heh. Let's hope it was something legal they were smoking ... like beer as Wolfman Jack used to say, "smoke BEER" ... but yeah, "S00pertrain" is something TV Land ought to bring back ONCE and then do a half hour special as they feed the film into an incinerator. :)
Well, all this talk of Supertrain made me drag out my copy and watch ir yesterday. GOD IS IT AWFUL, after it was over I took it out of the VCR and threw it in the trash.
Peace,
ANDEE
Heh. Warned yew ... "Love Boat on steel wheels" and THAT'S being kind. :)
VERY kind
Peace,
ANDEE
Even worse than the show was the theme song.
Click here to play the lovely theme song in RealAudio
Obviously Fred Silverman got locked in an Aerotrain laid up in the yard somewhere overnight and broke into the liquor cabinet. Maybe that would explain it. Still no excuse tho'.
Fortunately for the American TV audience, it was mercifully cancelled.
Fortunately for all of us, TV Land has ignored it.
We can only hope that some wise soul trashed the tapes and masters, thus preserving the "sanity" that is American television.
Heh. Agreed ... except for those shows where people are eating rats and bugs ... one really has to wonder about the folks on such shows when they could go over to the other network and only have to phone a friend for the same amount of prize winnin's ...
And yes, Regis was on at least one episode of that too. Woo-woo! :)
[barum-pum]
thanks chris... do you remember if the styling of the coaches was described as bus-like in appearance?
i found some information on the bowser train website.. they sell some models, but at the end of the page they have some shots of the train provided by one of the gm designers of the cars...
bowser model aero train page
i just spoke with bmtman and doug said that mth has also done an aero train model...
again... thanks for posting the pictures....
doug was right... mth has an aerotrain in their new catalog, and they mention that gm used intercity bus carbodies...
mth aero train
some memories,
a paraphrase of a Rock Island exec over lunch, --so we put it on the Peoria Rocket and the good people drove 20 miles away to ride the Santa Fe. Now we use the equipment in commute service. The problems had incleded couplers "bouncing far ebough to disengage--the suspension system was not good enough.
Indeed the cars resembled the concurrent GM truck and Coach division "hounds" and similar body work for transiy buses. look at pix of "fishbowls"
None of the "lightweights" (unintended? foublr entendre) of the 50's had a decent track record. I believe there is a book devoted to this history, buy no recollection of author.
As to models--indeed the Bowser is done from the Varney models of the era. Mantua/Tyco did a Talgo at the same time.
It was an era of experumentation--Budd fielded the "rubular train" PRR bought the unique demo set. These cars had normal height entry then down slopes to a lowered floor one assumes for better tracking--achieved by an early example of moving the HEP equipment to a separate car . PRR did a display at Union Staion DC to introduce the train, which was dubbed the Keystone.
These cars had normal height entry then down slopes to a lowered floor one assumes for better tracking--achieved by an early example of moving the HEP equipment to a separate car . PRR did a display at Union Staion DC to introduce the train, which was dubbed the Keystone.
I rode the Keystone in the summer of 1961 from North Philly to Newark for my pre-induction physical. From the recruiting office in Camden, I was given a DRPA token, a PTC token, a PRR ticket, and a bus voucher, which I used to ride the bridge train from Camden City Hall to 8th & Market in Philly, the Ridge Ave subway to Lehigh (I don't remember whether I had to transfer at Girard), PRR to Newark Penn Station, and a bus to the induction center. When I boarded the train I was surprised to descend to the seats from the end-of-car entrance. When I settled into my right side window seat, I was quite startled to look out the window and realize that I was looking up skirts and dresses!
I remember the Keystone, it was unusual to say the least. That low level was a real kicker, and in the middle 60's the views of women were very interesting to a young man. To the railfan, the Keystone was, by that time usually at the end of a B-60-B baggage car, a couple of P-70's and the low level Budd cars. Once in a while, WT or Sunnyside would reverse the consist, putting the low-level stuff right behind the G. Talk about a strange sight. Here's this monster of a locomotive (remember, the GG-1 could handle prodigous loads. We used to watch the Pennsy take the sleepers and coaches of two southern trains (that usually arrived headed by 2 E units), add 10 or 12 PRR cars and 1 G would haul the whole train, 19 or 20 cars, at 85 MPH to New York. What a show!!) coupled to these half-height coaches (so low that on the high-level platforms you could actually look at the TOP of the letterboard), followed by coaches that almost towered over them.
A very strange train, indeed.
The coaches were derived, both stylistically and structurally, from the GM buses of the day. To say that they were less than successful is an understatement.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
The cars *were* bus bodies, i believe. it was an attempt by GM to make a "lightweight" design, but of course, with truck technology stuck in the 1800's, it wasn't going to work at all.
Guess what guys?
I got on both R142/A's today! Both 2 and 6 R142/a's were running properly. It Is True.....Kawasaki R142A are the only cars that make the whirring noise. Bombardier cars are silent and smooth.
i rode 6301-10 Bom R-142 and half of the set had lights periodically turning off and on. it was on set 6310-6305. however it was hauling buttocks. btw did you hear the noise when the r-142 on the 2 was leaving the station? it's so sweet! you hear it best when the hvac isn't so loud.
I also rode the 6301-6310 set yesterday. I too noticed the lights going on and off. Each car did it independently.
Shawn
I also rode the 6301-6310 set yesterday. I too noticed the lights going on and off. Each car did it independently.
Shawn.
i know it is awkward. could it be an electrical short?
Could it be a third rail gap and no "run-through" powering? In the old days, when a car went through a third rail gap, it'd blink out until a shoe contacted the next segment and it behaved just as described. Over the years, folks may have just gotten used to Motor-generator sets keeping the lights on during gaps.
i assume so, but it kept on leaving the rail and not generating desired power. the new orders that will come to the 7 line will be customed for that line.
Maybe for the SMS, they'll install those whizzer blow rings into the brake pipes on the Bombardiers as well. After all, standardization is a "good thing."
but lets be honest, i'd rather see the r142a's on the 7 line instead of the 6. i mean both lines are heavily traveled, but shouldn't the 7 recieve a bit of the pot 'o gold that the 6'a are recieving? nothing against the r62a's though
The 7's pot-o-gold is that Corona Yard only has to deal with one kind of subway car. That's a nice operating advantage.
Personally, I'd be happy to see an upgrade to a new car (either R-62 or R-142). But it should be one type only, so that Corona Yard can keep the fleet in tip-top shape with a minimum of hassle.
dont take me wrong, i love the redbirds, i grew up with 'em. but i would like to see a change in the fleet without completely obliterating the redbirds EX: 50% redbirds, 50% r62/142a's. it has been and is still bieng done on the 2 and 6 lines
Do you not get it? They're not sending them there because it's unproven equipment. The same thing that happened to the R44 truck cracking fiasco can happen to the R142/R142As. To be safe, they're sending the R62A there as they are very reliable.
Nooo...they are not sending them there because Corona cannot handle the A/C units. They don't have the cranes. 180th St yard has been upgraded to SPECIFICALLY handle the R-142 series.
Peace,
ANDEE
they are not sending them there because the yard is outdated and because the R-142's will not pick up electricity for the electric shoes keeps leaving the rail.
Actually, while I really do love the R-142s, I appreciate the nostolgic value of the redbirds. While the time of all redbirds, even the few that remain on the #7 or somewhere else thru Jan 2003 are limited, remember that the #7 is an elevated line....it even goes over some expressways. Frankly, I find the redbirds to be more nostolgic on an elevated line then stainless steel. -Nick
today i was driving my brother's Old's Intrigue to the junk yard behind shea stadium to change the front end windsheild because of a 13" crack in it starting from the lower right corner. i accidently bumped into a jackass in front of me looking for the adress. i was at fault of course but the guy was so un professional that i just wanted to land every curse word in the book including in spanish because the guy urcked my nerves. i tried to say sorry but he was slamming me. i just shut my mouth put the car in reverse and went to the other side of the street. i could had it out with him. i wish i did.
now driving to school double parked to go inside the school and have my mother take over, some miserable putrid man comes over to me while my door is open taking my books out yells slurs at me and then honks his horn then i let somes slurs at him and gave him the middle finger. one more incident today then i would have been behind jail.
i'm gonna have to give driving a could two weeks or more off because i'm gonna get in trouble with these ignorant people.
That is also a pretty bad area, that whole Willets Point yard area looks like Tijuana. It's so bad it makes Flushing look like paradise.
I wouldn't dare venture there.
That is also a pretty bad area, that whole Willets Point yard area looks like Tijuana.
And I'm sure you've been to Tijuana many times and have a lot of experience with it.
And that yard is NOWHERE NEAR Willet's Point.
Well I just figured it's Willets point because it is near the Willets Point subway station. So what neighborhood is the junk yard in?
It's the Willets Point BOULEVARD Station. It's Flushing Meadows.
OK, my mistake.
move out here to southern california & experence the REAL DEAL...........PE & LARy rail system gone driving / bus only & ..
Hell yes driving does suck!!
oh hell no i wouldn't go out there. with the road rage out there i would end killing someone or be killed.
well then stay away from DETROIT. Lost Angeles cali. etc..... is not the only place where Road Rage runs amuck!!
this evil stuff is nationwide ( like the last time i drove around Atlanta!) ...
oohh! i forgot to mention atlanta! they are serious! i will never drive around there again! if i go there again i will try to use MARTA for the first time or have my cousin drive me around.
Even right here in Sea Cliff. I cross the street and get yelled by a driver. And this was a village official!!!
It's bad enough we got 5 inches of snow on the ground!
At least you never have to see snow. We are getting more of it tomorrow. And it sure is a pain in the *%*%$*#@^ ass when people don't shovel their snow (if anyone out there hasn't shoveled your sidewalk, look out I'm comin'!)
You got better radio stations in southern California and it's more scenic. But I could never move there. From what I hear the mass transit there is pretty sporadic and unreliable. From a railfan's perspective, SoCal must be pretty boring.
From a railfan's perspective, SoCal must be pretty boring.
Most railfans have other interests, and would certainly remain amused in other parts of the world.
i lived in DETROIT home of the DPM DETROIT PEOPLE MOVER !!!!!!
in centerline michigan about 1 mile north of downtown Detroit!! beleive me we had our many bouts of snow there! The people seemed to be a little more "down to earth" though....
As for " los angeles" it is too crowded with too many cars and its rail system ripped out & the chickens here coming home to roost big time !!
( i do like the mountains above pasadena they are very nice to look at & are very beautiful )
some parts of utah arizona new mexico nevada colorado look scenic & beautiful..
took many photos of this as well !!
my rail & bus transit photos is not the only thing i have shot photos / videos of etc..
( if you know what i mean ) ...oh well.....!!
going out to the ORANGE EMPIRE MUSEUM and all of the collections of the los angeles rail collections / PE cars LARy cars PCC cars etc..
We will be members next month for sure !!
Yeah I agree. It's a 23-mile commute to my school every morning. Traffic is usually good but jamups spring out of nowhere out here. You're just driving along, doin' 65-67, and then BOOM traffic is at a dead stop in front of you. It'd be nice if there was some LRT or monorail or something I could take.
BTW, why was i locked out of subtalk? It gave me "cannot find server" errors whenever i tried to post. I could read messages but I couldn't post. This happened at my home AND my school. What was up with that?
I was getting off the E Train last week. When I got on the Q84 at Bay F, I got on the bus, and I read a notice. Starting tomorrow, the Q84 and the Q42 headed towards Laurelton and Sayres avenue and Addesleigh park will be changed to the northbound side of Archer Avenue. The reason this is so unfair is because they built 2 shelters on the other side of archer by the 153rd street entrance. those shelters WILL NOT hold all the Q42 and Q84 riders. If any MTA officials read this, please note that the Q42 and Q84 riders are not happy about this and are banding together to try and protest and complain about this change. If any Railfan or Busfan has anything to say about this, please respond.
Complaining about this kind of problem here will not solve anything. You have to get your politicains and community boards involved. Writ letters to the TA. Call them at 718-330-3322. But I will say this: as far as I know, there is so much bus congestion on the south side during the PM rush, some changes had to be made. Is this a NIMBY?: not my line, do it to someone elses!
Please read my messages on bustalk about what I think of these changes.
BIG AL
An NY&A switcher along with R142's 6381-6385 just left NY&A Fresh Pond Yard for NYCT Linden Yard. I got some pictures I'm going to try to develop today.
Shawn.
The NY&A Switcher just returned to Fresh Pond Yard.
Shawn.
Shawn,
6381-85 made it into the system and passed my way as of 2125 hours (9:25PM). Same locomotives as yesterday except that Loco 888 brought up the rear.
So far all cars are accounted for from 6301-6455 except 6356-60, 6386-90, and 6401-05. I'll take a guess and say 6386-90 are on the way during the week. We shall see!!!
-Stef
anybody know whats up with 6411-20? i heard that the T.P.'s are defective on one of the cars.
Does any one know: what part of a parked car should a cinder block be dropped on from 4 stories in order to disable the alarm? Thanks in advance.
The hood.. right on the driver's side horizon
between hood and windshield...
You could use a sofa, like in that new commercial. That way you can cover the hood, windshield and roof, doing the most possible damage. But, don't get caught. 8-)
Peace,
ANDEE
In one of my cars the alarm shuts off after one minute if the doors are closed.
Hehehe....
I've noticed that old, rusty cars have the most sensitive alarms. BMWs and snob appeal-based cars are next. I've found this out using the ever-reliable Harley-Davidson method of testing car alarm sensitivity >:) My personal favorite are cars that tell you to move away. If you're THAT paranoid about your car, lock it up in a little box or something.
I find car alarms more of a bother than anything else. I had one on my bike that was useless (besides, the ultimate anti-theft system for a Harley is a kick starter ;) They go off, everyone ignores them. They all sound the same. They go off for no reason at all. What's the big point of them?
You're 100% right. Car alarms ARE useless. No one pays any attention to them. They only make noise and annoy people. When was the last time you called the cops to report a car alarm going off. They only benefit the people who make them.
Peace,
ANDEE
They have one use, the car locks automatically.
Yeah, if you have a car with keyless access...
Peace,
ANDEE
Yeah, if you have a car with keyless access...
Don't all car alarms have the remote?
No. Many, especially the older ones, are tied into the driver's door key; opening the door with the key gives you several seconds to then hit a button mounted somewhere in the interior.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I too agree with you that car alarms are useless. All they are good for is to make noise in the neighborhood when they go off. They don't do one bit of good. If you want to protect your car you're probably better off getting "The Club" and some cut off switches if necessary.
BMTJeff
Unfortunately, I had a car stolen WITH the club and cut-off switches. It was sometime during the day while parked near the Kew Gardens subway. Why anyone would want to steal a nine-year old Chevy Celebrity is still beyond me.
I refuse to purchase a car alarm because of all the sleep they've cost me, and the fact that they're the classic case of crying wolf. Most thieves aren't the least bit afraid of them because of the fact that no one takes them seriously anymore.
A couple of my cop friends say that they have the ability to disable the alarm from the outside, but whenever one calls the police about a runaway alarm, they couldn't care less. The usual response is "It's part of living in the city; just accept it."
I've seem some very threatening, profane notes left on windshields of such cars. Once a group of neighbors were planning to lay in wait till the owner came out and take baseball bats to him.
I doubt any jury would convict them.
I've actually seen someone beating a car with a baseball bat as the alarm went off. A cop walked right by him and said nothing.
One minute is too long for people trying to sleep.
Once you've woken me up the damage is done. I really cannot stand people (not you) with cheap-o alarms that are set off by a rat farting. Like some of them are.
Peace,
ANDEE
OK, I've never had the alarm go off for vibration. Although, when pushing the car, the alarm pulses a couple of times, but I don't recall it ever going off after being jarred.
In my neighborhood a bus going by sets off car alarms. Does anyone actually think the car is being stolen? How are the owners not annoyed? I guess they don't live near where they park their cars. So, it's the hood on the driver's side just in front of the windshield? I'll let you know how it goes. Oh, and it'll be from my roof, so as not to implicate an open window in February.
Most people ignore car alarms when they go off since most of the time they are set off by the slightest thing that disturbs them. You're probably better off not getting a car alarm since they usually don't do a bit of good.
BMTJeff
Even though a car alarm will not prevent a car from being stolen the insurance companies give discounts if you have one. So I don't see them going away anytime soon.
Peace,
ANDEE
There are other anti-theft devices that insurance companies will give you discounts on besides car alarms.
BMTJeff
Yeah, like the equally useless "club"
Peace,
ANDEE
hey, besides www.transitworld.com and www.transitalk.com do any of you people knowm any other sites with subway video or sound clips?
yes- my site has several video clips of the R142a (including one from inside the cab) on it's opening day.
Go to www.zdeno.com then click on "rolling stock" then "r142" and then "142a"
-Harry
thanx! :)
My Home Office.
Salaam's Video Bazaar.
...others.
It took a little time for it to register but from what I've been reading is the new configuration for the various lines mean that the B is no longer going to be the West End, and the D no longer going to be the Brighton Local? If so, when is this change going to take place and has any decision been made about who's going to use the Manhattan Bridge when that long drawn out affair is finally finished?
Being three thousand miles away is not the easiest to keep up with the rapidly changing events.
There are so many posts constantly about the matter, pay attention.
I'm not always able to get on this site like you, so I'm a little behind in the info. Thanks for the non-information you little squirt. You owe me one.
You come here every few days.
That's frequently enought to check information.
Pork: I'm happy to know that you are such an authority of what we should know. Somewhere I missed the changes concerning the West End and Brighton. Since you are reluctant to share what you know, perhaps some other person will be willing to tell me what is going to happen to the B and D trains.
Sea Beach, what is going on is the Manhattan Bridge, the State wants to re hab the north end of the Bridge, cutting out the IND connection to 6th Avenue from BMT in Brooklyn. We went thru this ten years ago.
Because of this, all BMT service from Brooklyn is going back up (the soon to be re-opened) South side of the bridge.
B and D trains will run from 145th (Bedford Park rush hrs.) and 205th St. to 34th Street/6th Avenue IND and be turned there.
To replace B service in Brooklyn, a W train will be created, running from Coney Island to Astoria via BMT Broadway Express. During off peak hours, it will turn at 57th and 7th.
To replace D service in Brooklyn, a Q train will run, via BMT Broadway Express in Manhattan, making all stops to Coney Island once in Brooklyn. Again this is from 57/7th. This will be a 24/7 operation.
To replace Q express service in Brooklyn, a Q Express will run, making express stops in Brooklyn and Manhattan. This will be a M-F operation.
Take care.
Thank you Piasan. You gave me just about all I need to know, especially the part of the B and D reverting back to their independent lines, and disassociation from the BMT in Brooklyn. All someone needs to tell me is what happens to the N, my favorite train. Will it also go over the Manny B or will it still stay on the same route. Pork got my Italian blood up when he gave me some smart aleck remark about not paying attention, but that's just Pork, and, besides, I must have been off line those three days when the changes first hit the website. Thanks for your help.
No one here knows what is going to happen to the N. I'm really hoping that it will go express. However, i think that the W and Q will be expresses, while the N,R,and Q local will be local. I could be wrong, as this will force the M out of court st., so maybe the N will go exp.?
I sure as hell hope so. To me the Sea Beach will always be an express, even though the TA has screwed that line royally.
N SLOW BOAT LOCAL
We may be the slow boat local but at least that could change. Your Ddtrain is going the way of the five cents cigar. No longer a Brighton Line, but back to its Ind System status. The D will no longer run your favorite route. Ha! Laugh that one off. The Sea Beach lives forever.
Those of us who proudly served the concourse line didn't think all that much of Stillwell either. We always considered Brighton Beach/Coney as a hijacked train anyhoo. Neener-neener. Heh.
Selkirk: Touche! I can live with that. I always considered the Brighton the #1 train which you guys hijacked. And speaking of hijacked I still don;t why the hell my Sea Beach lost its number 4 to that cheap fraud that runs in the Bronx. You see, we just got hijacked, too. I would say that N is my favorite number, but if the TA found out about it the next thing you would know would be that the Sea Beach was renamed the K train or the V train or some other crappy letter.
Well actually, the number system worked out just fine until some *IDIOT* decided that the IRT and the BMT should be merged into some silly unified "transit SYSTEM" ... prior to that, everyone knew that the BMT was not the IRT and could sorta keep it separate. Though a number 14 train musta confused the bejeepers out of many. Then again, prior to the triplexes, it wasn't like there was a route sign.
Now as a former employee, I find this circle and diamond stuff to be the HEIGHT of insanity. I still don't know which is which ... when I worked the railroad, it was colorful as all getout with cyans, magentas and light and dark blues, more electric pinks ... now it looks like they've gone back to red for IRT, black for IND and green for BMT ... did they resurrect the Bored of Transportation again? How *retro* ...
But you've certainly got my vote for having the numbers back on the BMT again ... so long as they stop with those silly circles and diamonds and stop confusing the crap out of the touristas ... heh.
Well there is no argument there on my part. We are in full agreement. But you won't mind if I don;t hold my breath while the TA decides to use the number system on the BMT again. It sure would be nice but those boobs only make things worse, not better. I think damage control is the best thing we can hope for from them.
Well, considering that the "M" has now got the conductors doing the Japanese traffic cop finger exercise, then they might as well go whole hog Nihonjin and paint the cars a different color for each line. If the car bodies are yellow, it's a West End ... Pea Soup Green, 95 St, Dark Green - Sea Beach, Blue - Culver, Red - Canarsie. They wanna change car assignments, it's off to Heypaul's house to have Joe Franklin put in a good word with Martian Paint for a repaint. No route signs, no confusion and the same colors could be on the maps and thus they could paint over the route sign window on the R-4x's just like they painted in the railfan window on the BMT standards (I have pictures of when the side window on the car ends was plain glass just like the motorman's side ... strangely they all got painted over somewhere in history for reasons only the BoT can explain.
After all, if some hapless schmuck can actually figure out where the train is going just by glancing at it, something's incredibly wrong with said picture. :)
That's it---bring heypaul into this mess. I'll bet with his usual easy grasp of things he could bring order from chaos. Maybe he could talk to the TA like a Dutch uncle and show them what's what. Then again, we would probably just be wating heypaul's time on a "mission impossible."
Forget the numbers and letters. How about a color for each line. This is the Broadway Sea Beach chartrusse Local to Astoria
They tried that once already. The maps from that era looked like a maze of colored spaghetti.
And baby pink for the Brighton, with dull gray trim for some brightness.
Which Brighton
Any and all of them, take your pick. When you've seen one Brighton, you've seen them all. Brighton? The D? No!. Brighton? the #1 No! My God where did the Brighton go? Oh, it's the Q as in quince, quit, queer (that's weird not gay), quack, and quasi. Some letter. Mediocre and second rate, hardly used, never praised. A perfect letter for the Brighton..
The Brighton will Be Red or Green for a Major TRUNK LINE
Why? Are they trying to win over us Italians? It will never work.
I certainly would go back to the number system for the BMT. I would figure it out in no time. Just make sure that people realize that the same number is used for two different trains. Red numbers can be used to denote the IRT and green numbers can be used to denote the BMT. You can have the #1 Brighton Beach Exp. once again. Then #4 Sea Beach Fred's favorite #4 Sea Beach Exp. You can also have the #16 Canarsie local.
BMTJeff
I ranted about this on a different thread yesterday -- with all the lines and combinations the BMT and IND had once the merger was finalized, they should have been given the number designations while the IRT -- which has barely changed routes at all in the last 40 years -- should have gotten the letter designations -- A, B and C on the West Side, D, E and F on the East Side and the G train to Flushing.
Assuming the MTA would want to try and group the B Division numbers along the Manhattan trunk lines as much as possible, while trying to stay close to the old BMT designations, you would have had a post-1968 set-up something like this (with the current route letters in parenthesis):
Broadway
1 (Q) -- Brighton/Broadway Express
2 (R) -- Fourth Ave./Broadway Local
3 (B) -- West End/Sixth Ave. Express
4 (N) -- Sea Beach/Broadway Express
5 (D) -- Brighton Local/Sixth Ave. Express
6 (F) -- Queens Blvd.Exp./Sixth Ave./Culver Local
7 (E) -- Queens Blvd. Exp./Eighth Ave. Local
8 (A) -- Eighth Ave./Fulton Express
9 (C) -- Eighth Ave./Fulton Local
10 (G) -- Bklyn./Queens Local
11 (H) -- Rockaway Shuttle
Of course some lines have changed letters over the years -- the C from the K and the AA being the most noticable -- and the arrival of the V on the scene would force the creation of a new No. 12 train on the Sixth Ave. line, which would blow the number pattern apart. But the Southern and Eastern Divisions could have pretty much kept their original BMT number designations, and the double numbers would have been far less perplexing than the myriad of letter combos the MTA has thought up over the years.
And as far as the IND goes, people could have gotten use to taking the No. 5 train on the Grand Concourse or the No. 11 train out in the Rockaways, and to be honest, changing the song "Take the A Train" to "Take the 8 Train" wouldn't have been that much of a stretch :-)
You forgot the 15-(J) Jamaica Line, also 14(Z) 16(L) 7 Was the Franklin and since it still runs it should go back to the Franklin.
I think that the No. 14 train ran on the Broadway elevated in Brooklyn but turned onto the Canarsie line after East New York if I'm not mistaken.
BMTJeff
It did, but most terminated at Eastern PKY(Broadway Junction) They were Rush Hour Only trains
The old 14 had multiple personalities. It did run in skip-stop with the 15 at one time, but it always terminated at Canal St. Its other terminals could be Crescent St., Atlantic Ave., or Rockaway Parkway.
I didn't put the Eastern Division numbers down, because as I said, those lines could have kept their original numbers if the BMT system had been kept, while the Southern Division would have had to go through some changes, including redesignating the 7 - Franklin Shuttle as the S, which would have made it the B Division equivalent of what the 42nd Street shuttle is to the IRT today.
J Lee:
The route number setup that you posted makes the most sense and would eliminate those confusing letters that they're still using on the B division lines. I'd definitely go for your numbering system for the B division trains.
BMTJeff
Sounds great to me, but where the hell were you when we needed you. What they've done to the BMT is criminal. I know all about the IRT being the first, and the fact that it opened on an October 27, my birthday. That cuts no ice whatsoever. Brooklyites and most Manhattanites were BMT people, despite the long time rivalry between the two boroughs. The IRT was the Bronx. Give the BMT the numbers and let the IRT use the letters since they never had numbers on their trains prior to Chyrstie.
While Jay Street may be run by one-year-olds, odds are they wouldn't have listened to one back when the number-letter decision was made in 1958.
As I said in the other thread, if it hadn't been for the fact the IND supporters were pretty much calling the shots for the 30 years after unification, logic would have said double-digit numbers are easier to decipher than double letters and since the IND/BMT unification was already in the works and the IRT was still made up mostly of non-R series cars, it would have been far better to keep the BMT system 43 years ago.
Double numbers? Wow? That would have been really downtown, to use a phrase from the 50's. I could see it now. The Sea Beach. #44. Boy that would be all time. My favorite number on my favorite line. Maybe I'll call by pal George W and ask him to issue an Executive Order to that effect. What the hell, it's worth a try.
Maybe I'll call by pal George W and ask him to issue an Executive Order to that effect.
You're actually acquainted with the President?
No Pork, I was just being facetious. But perhaps someone who knows him could do it. I wish it were me because I would like that change to come with our subway. But as far as goes, it will probably never happen.
Don't think they'd need that many numbers, unless they revive the IND second system plan. But the 10, 11, 12, 14, 15 and 16 trains (and what the heck, throw in a revived KK 6th Ave.-Broadway Bklyn. local and call it the 13) would have been a lot easier to figure out than the NX, QB, QJ, RJ, JJ, AA, BB, CC, HH and, yes, even the KK train when Chrystie Street was opened.
The first numbers were in 1948-49 on the Flushing Line, and then on the Bdway-7th Ave in 54/55
I think the 6 was the first mainline route to marked as such, as the R-17s were initially assigned there in 1955. Prior to that, the R-12s, R-14s, and R-15s were all assigned to the Astoria and Flushing lines.
Did an R12 ever see Astoria. ? It was converted to BMT-only in 1949.
The thing is, the BMT numbering system was Brooklyn-centered while the IND letter-code is Manhattan-centered, with a secondary emphasis on the Bronx and Queens terminals. With the BMTs on the letter code, they did prioritize the Brooklyn terminal over the Manhattan or Queens terminal. Otherwize how do we get the Q on Sixth Ave?
Anyway, considering that Manhattan gets the most out-of-town ridership, I sort of think it makes sense to prioritze accordingly. The modern subway map and letter/number/color code is one of the smartest thing the MTA ever came up with. It's so easily recognizable. You know your train is on Sixth Ave (for instance) by the orange circle, and from there the letter (or number) tells you where the train goes after it leaves the trunk line.
The BMT number code went out well before I was born, but it is my impression that it never had that same recognizabilty. Many trains never even carried it. And numbers reaching into the teens just aren't as easy to remember as letters.
:-) Andrew
Color coding by trunk line came well after the arrival of the B Division letter codes, and while numbers like 10, 11, 12, etc. may be harder to remember than A, B or C, when the consolidation began it created a smorgasbord of two-letter lines that were impossible for anyone but a railfan to get down pat in their minds. Using numbers there definitely would have been better.
"Color coding by trunk line came well after the arrival of the B Division letter codes"
I know that. All I'm saying is that that the current system of identification is excellent, and I'd say superior to what was in place before. I know that it was arrived at gradually. But even before the color coding, the IND letters were grouped logically. A, C, and E (odd letters) on eigth. B, D and F (even letters) on Sixth. Then the A, B, C, and D join on CPW while the E and F join with the G. The N, Q, and R are on Broadway (just ignore the Q on Sixth. Ignore it.)
Of course the system used double letters for locals for the first 50-odd years. That never really made sense. Good riddance to all that.
:-) Andrew
Actually the double-letter scheme served very well on the IND at least at letting you know it was definitely a local, especially on 2 and 3 tracked pieces of the line where the local and express shared the track. Easy at a glance "crawler" or "speeder" for the uninitiated. It's when they went to oddballs like QJ, NX and QT that the eyes would start to glaze over. :)
I would use double-letters, always prefixed with S, to indiviualize the shuttles: SF (Frankin), SR (Rockaway), but call the 42nd street shuttle 42. I',m surprized the TA doesn't rename the G train S as well to signify the Court Square truncation.
I still can't believe that they'd cut the GG ... at LEAST bring it to a platform where it met the other trains. Hell, they even did this for the Franklin shuttle ... the recommended "G" is just silly. For all the trackwork they're doing at QBP, they couldn't just bring it to a single new platform off to the side? If I lived on that line, I'd have gone completely volcanic ...
I do live on that line! here's what they should do: take the G to Queens Blvd. Platform. local. Have the V come in the station on the express track. After the stop, G trains can go to the lay-up track, while V trains switch onto the local.
I'll drink to that. Wait. Let me get my Gatorade.
What No VINO ????
Believe it or not Brighton Beach Bob I do not drink wine. Haven't for 30 years. Why? Don't know. I just got out of the habit just before I got married and never went back into it. Maybe someday.
Like scotch then? :)
Glenfiddich or Chivas Regal?
UUUUUUUUUUU! Do you want to make me sick? Believe me, I cannot take liquor. One drink and I get real tipsy and silly. I'll stick to cranberry and orange juice.
Jesus, OJ and cranberry....so much for the 'ol timers...I thought you'd be able to drink me under the table! lolol
Piasan, when it comes to pasta, ravioli and pizza, I'm as Italian as you could possibly be, but one day I just stopped drinking wine. No reason, I just got out of the habit and never went back to it. Tell you what, the next time my wife and I go out to dinner I will order a glass of wine. Then, who knows? Your inspiration might get back to drinking vino after a 30 year hiatus. I do take a sip of wine when I receive communion every Sunday, so I have dabbled a taste or two.
My grandfather saw 96, and drinks two glasses of Red a day.
On top of the Macanundo, Brascole and baccala.
Go figure, hope I've got his genes!
If you do I'd get to the nearest place of worship and say a prayer of thanks for your good fortune. Maybe there's something to this wine stuff. I've been told by others that wine is a great elixir, but grape juice is a poor substitute. Well drink up.
Jesus, OJ and cranberry....so much for the 'ol timers...I thought you'd be able to drink me under the table! lolol
I don't drink liquor either like you. I did have some champagne on New
Years' but, I did get somewhat tipsy after only about one drink so I didn't have anymore. Like you I'll stick to non-alcoholic beverages.
BMTJeff
I also like the fact the it looks like the IND will no longer be invading the Brighton line with the elimiation of the "D" train from that line. I think that they should get the "B" train the hell off the West End line and go back to the "T" train or even better yet the No. 3 West End line. Get rid of the letters from the BMT and go back to the numbers.
BMTJeff
You are lucky that the Slow Beach hasn t not been changed to a shuttle, and is still a 24/7 train.
Hey Mister D man, or should I say Mr. extinct D man, keep the tears flowing for your soon to be dead and gone D Brighton. Gone the way of the five cents cigar. You're breaking my heart with your piteous cries.
The D is not gone, we still have EXPRESS SERVICE ON THE Q, for quick, not local on the N for Never comes.
Bob, I love you. You're one of a kind. Keep 'em coming.
Fred may have a stroke reading this, but for a time in the late 70s and early 80s, the N did operate as a shuttle between 36th or 59th St. and Stillwell Ave. during the late hours. The RR, as it was known then, ran 24/7.
That s the way it should be now, with the W as a 24/7 b Stillwell to Astoria
No stroke yet, but it isn't the kind of news I like to hear. So maybe things aren't as bad today as I might think. Nevertheless, get that train to go express on Broadway, and get it over the Mann B instead of the lower bowels of Manhattan. To hell with Whitehall Street and those other crappy sports.
The D did not run on the Brighton Line, until I moved to LA, it stillwas the 1 then all the Q s. The reason I wanted a D T shirt was theyd do not make a Q, plus the D goes to Yankee Stadium, The N to Nowhere. Maybe that is why they named it the N for Nowhere line, or Nobody rides it from Manhatten
Bob, you are a work of art. And I found this piece of yours to be actually funny. N to nowhere. Coney Island is not nowhere, but I get your point. Too bad about the D. Maybe we can get the numbers back, and you will realize my #4 is four times better than your #1.
You two have me ROTFLMAO. People refer to the N as Never nowadays. Not to be outdone, the R is known as Rarely.
I forgot Fred you used to Live in Astoria, so let us make the N to Never runs fast
Steve: If you could tell me what the hell ROTFLMAO stands for, maybe I can laugh along with you. But Bob and Fred's barbs are pretty good, eh? Kind of livens up the site a little.
No. The N and R will be local the same as now. The W and both Qs will be Express.
Will both of the Q's run express?
Both Q services in Manhattan (BMT Broadway) will be Express.
I just said that.
Anytime. The N so far is unchanged, going by Montague. However, I can't see why the "N" travels via Manhattan Bridge during off peak when 1 set of ! trains sleeps for the weekend :)
Anytime. The N so far is unchanged, going by Montague. However, I can't see why the "N" would not be able to travel via Manhattan Bridge during off peak when the Q Express train sleeps for the weekend :)
Sometimes I ride the B train but since that a new letter, the "W" train will replace the "B" train as a replacement until 2004 & since there are "W" signs with diamond.
I was just wonderning, does NYCT plan to keep the corrent "W" signs with the diamond or will NYCT buy new rollsigns that will include the "W" with a circle, if the rollsigns are changed, when will they be updated & what subway car equipment will be used on the "W" train.
Finally, will the "W" train in Queens operate express or local.
I heard that they will buy new signs for the R-68's (which have needed them since they were first delivered), and I'm sure these will have the new circle designations, and if another car class is used they will just substitute the diamond. All the plans I have heard have it running express in Queens; this will be the first to do this, unlike the and before.
After all the rumors about The new "W" train. Does anyone have an idea when will the "W" service begin?
August
August 1, 2001 to be exact, I think.
What time? Will there be a Ribbon cutting ceremony? Refreshments?
Cheerleaders? Fireworks? Will the Mayor delivery a speech? Will the press be there? Will there be interviews with the TODAY SHOW? Will the mayor get amnesty or a pardon?
avid
"I heard that they will buy new signs for the R-68's (which have needed them since they were first delivered)"
I bet these signs will be digital...hopefully more like the 142s instead of the crappy ones on the 46s. -Nick
I predict the W will run express in Astoria for about one week. Then the MTA will realize that there just aren't enough passengers at the 2 express stops on the Astoria line (Astoria Blvd. & Ditmars) to justify it.
I think it's because they had problems turning trains at Queensboro Plaza last time around. Guess they figured to augment Astoria Line service with a peak direction express.
They can also augment it with a second local.
No. Demand on the Astoria line doesn't require an additional local service. The only reason the "W" will turn at Ditmars is due to the fact that it would be an operational basket case to turn three lines at 57th Street BMT.
My prediction stands.
The W will not run in Queens. 57/7 is the last stop.
-Hank
I thought the W was going to Astoria.
:-) Andrew
M-F 5AM-10PM, the "W" will run to Astoria.
METROCARD & CARDHOLDERS COLLECTOR¹S CATALOG
This is an 8.5 inch x 11inch 20 page booklet printed by the MTA. They later decided not to distribute it. It contains 20 glossy, color pages of actual size photos of 1997-99 commemorative MetroCards & cardholders. Full color photos of the Subway Series 97, Then and Now, Emigrant, JVC Jazz, Healthy City, Ferry Boat, Yankees 98, Subway Cool, Millennial Journeys, Mets International Week plus 63 Cardholders including the complete Great Subway series. All photos are actual size & full color! A beautiful collectors MUST HAVE. The supply is limited. When they are gone, they are gone.
Send $10.00 ea. plus $2. P & H in check or Money Order.
Made out to: Mike Makman, To: Prof. Putter, Po Box 755
Planet Station, NYC NY 10024
Looking for a diagram or map of the 63 St connector, especially the Sunnyside section including bellmouths, TA, LIRR facilities, links to Sunnyside Yard, etc.
Thanks
You should try looking harder. There's a diagram right on the NYC Subway site here.
http://www.nycsubway.org/faq/63rdconn.jpg
Shawn.
Thanks for the tip. Wish I had the time to know the site better.
All I had to do to find it was to search for "63rd Street."
Shawn.
Transit Tech High School, which is near Euclid Avenue, is WAAAAY far from My House, which is near 149th Grand Concourse.
12.07- Begin Trip by taking an R142#2 train
2.40- at Fulton st- Transfer for an A
2.50- A train arrives and I get on it
3.30- Arrive at Euclid ave.
3.50 Walk towards the school.
3-56- Take about 5 minutes looking at the school, front and back, side to side.
4.00- walk back towards Euclid Ave.
4.15- Caught a C train. Stupid Idea.....
4.35- Arrive at Fulton St. again.
4.40- See many people get on a 4 train.
4.45- Decide to take a 2 train. another stupid idea....
4.50- Caught a redbird, with the world's squeakiest brakes (they can shatter windows....just joking).
5.00- Train goes LOCAL....oh god......
5.40- at 135th ST.....geez....
5.43- arrive at 149th GC.
wow, that was kinda fun...but I took a lot of silly and stupid detours.
>>>12.07- Begin Trip by taking an R142#2 train
2.40- at Fulton st- Transfer for an A <<<
It took you 2 HOURS and 33 MINUTES to get from 149GC to Fulton????
Peace,
ANDEE
andee asked :
"It took you 2 HOURS and 33 MINUTES to get from 149GC to Fulton????"
andee... why are you surprised???... the young man was on an r142...
|r142|--|r142|--|r142|--|r142|--|r142|--|r142|--|r142|--|r142|--|r142|--|r142|
when you take that into consideration, i think he made pretty good time... after all, the new equipment is taking a little extra time to break in...
|r62|--|r62|--|r62|--|r62|--|r62|--|r62|--|r62|--|r62|--|r62|--|r62|
LOL.
Heypaul, what is your favorite A-Division car? Do you dislike the R143 the same way?
But the R-143 is a B division car...
Peace,
ANDEE
I know. They are separate questions.
i really don't have any favorite a division car... i suppose of the existing cars, anything without a full width cab that you can look out of, is preferable...
i haven't really paid attention to the r143's, as i have been busy putting pin striping on my r9 cab...
Gotta say mine is the R-15s with the highly unique porthole windows in the doors-Say, is it my imagination or where they the ONLY IRT cars to employ three-axle trucks? I remember vaguely riding them on the #2 and #3 lines as a kid that they did, although I cannot be sure!! If any knows, please post!!! Peace :> Thomas
I meant existing.
BTW, nice handle. I loved Thomas the TANK Engine and its too bad PBS took him off the air.
The Shining Time Station TV show? they were taken off because their star of the show took her own ways and so did the entire cast.
Shining Time Station was a great show...
I hate to admit this: When Barney the purple dinosaur became a big hit I was doing Pediatric ICU rotations in a hospital. Doing a 24-hour shift in intensive care, and having to listen to Barney over and over and over again on the kids' TV's gave me fantasies about an episode where Barney gets kidnapped and tied up on railroad tracks and then NO ONE saves him when Thomas the Tank Engine runs him over...
I apologize to all (except Barney).
I would mainly appologize to Thomas for that!
;-D Andrew
Well the R15's still exist. On work trains anyway.
totally agree...thomas the tank engine KICKS ASS. Better than all these other P.O.S. kids shows (Arthur, Barney, Teletubbies....PUH-LEEESE!). All I can say is, the hayul with those troublesome trucks.
I must agree. Maybe we can send one of those R142 cars to deal with them. It seems some people think they are so incredlibly great...
I MUST AGREE, I TRULY DO KICK ASS!!! GLAD Y'ALL LOVED MY SHOW, I HAD TO HAVE IT TAKEN OFF OF PBS DUE TO CREATIVE DIFFERENCES AND SALARY DISPUTE. AT LEAST THOUGH, I FOUND ANOTHER HOME HERE AT SUBTALK!!! p.s.: HOW COME NO ONE HAS ANSWERED MY QUESTION ABOUT WHETHER OR NOT R-15s/16s USED THREE AXELED BOGEYS OR NOT?
PEACE, THOMAS THE SUBWAY ENGINE :>
Not that I was asked, but my favorite A-division car is the R62. Can't wait to see them on the 7!
:-) Andrew
Beofer someone corrects me, I think the 7 is getting R62A's. Same difference.
:-) Andrew
|red|--|bird|--|red|--|bird|--|red|--|bird|--|red|--|bird|--|red|--|bird|
LOL
K'..Andee beat me to it.. but Heypaul just hit
with the POST OF THE MONTH!!
i second the nomination !!
>12.07- Begin Trip by taking an R142#2 train
>2.40- at Fulton st- Transfer for an A
Serves you right!
r142 takes 2hours and 33 minutes to make a trip
which a redbird can make in 48 minutes... tops!
ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ
Why don't you people just get over the Rust Vultures? Geez, it makes me want to strangle some of you people who hate the R142s just because they're better than the Rust Vultures and newer and are replacing them. It's not like the R142s are replacing a superior car as is the case with the current crop of buses replacing the RTS nationwide. I wish some of you would drag yourselves out of the 1950s and 60s and join us reality based people in 2001. You all should be happy that the Reds lasted this long, enjoy the little time you have left with them, move on with your lives, and stop bashing the R142s, many of which will outlive you. God, I've never seen so many rabidly, delirious, and unreality based people on one board.
I know there are SOME people on this board that are tired of seeing some Red fanatic bash the R142 for every little thing. It seems like I'm the minority here in being tired of hearing all the moaning and groaning. You people are supposed to be SO mature, but you sound like a class of five year olds. Many of you whine about the R142s because they are the Hitler of subway cars, but yet you all never give any reason your crappy, whining braked, frame collapsing, Rusted Vultures are any better. You state they're old and have lasted long, but that doesn't make them any better. With that logic, you can say an 80 year old man who used to play basketball can beat Kobe Bryant just because he's been around longer.
Is there ANYONE out there who agrees with me on this unnessecary R142 hating?
some of my bashing of the 142's comes from an amusement at seeing what jumps in technology can do to reliability...
some of my bashing of the 142's comes from an amusement of seeing some reality based people like yourself becoming unhinged at someone else's feelings...
stay tuned... later today i will post a heypaul "2001
i'm sorry dave" tribute to the r142's...
I don't have anything against the R142's, just letting y'all know.
Well, judging by your name I didn't think you did.
"I don't have anything against the R142's, just letting y'all know."
Neither do I, but I wouldn't mind riding one. Where are they ? Deliveries of new cars are being posted here daily, it's not nice to hide from Bill "Newkirk".
Bill "Newkirk"
When was the last time that you've been to NYC?
That has to be the most ridiculous thing you've posted to me since you tried to tell me the 132-Harwin Express wasn't an express bus becuase it didn't apply by NYCs expensive rip-you-off standards even though the bus is clearly marked express.
Anyway, posting that made no sense at all because I never mentioned anything about NYC. Posting about Redbirds and R142s really has nothing to do with NYC except the fact that they run there but technically any city with a subway can have them. So what does it matter if I've been to NYC? I've been reading this board and I've been hearing about the R142s so called problems of which many were minor and the Redbirds being hailed higher than God. I'm sure if many of the people here looked hard enough, they could find numerous problems on the Redbirds they could post about seeing as they're 40 or pushing 40 and all.
If I understand correctly you work for the subway department. Had you posted something insightful from your experiences with these cars instead of a stupid and idiotic question, perhaps you would've shared something with me I didn't know about the old cars and the newer 142s. Alas, you did not, instead you posted a question to try and make me look unqualified to comment. You'll find that the hardest task of your life my friend, so good luck.
Now, you can ignore all of that post if you were actually going somewhere with that question besides "Well, if you've never been to NYC, what makes you an expert on subways?" If you weren't, then all of that post applies.
BTW, I've never been to NYC.
Thanks a lot. I was asking because you said that you were coming to New York for the first time a few months ago and I wanted to ask you what your opinion was about NY and our system. But NOOOOO, I've got to get lambasted by you because you think that I am going to undermine your credibility. Far from the truth. And as far as that Houston Express bus post goes, that's yesterday's news. Forgotten.
And you said:
>>>If I understand correctly you work for the subway department. Had you posted something insightful from your experiences with these cars instead of a stupid and idiotic question, perhaps you would've shared something with me I didn't know about the old cars and the newer 142s.<<<
I cannot do that as those cars are in the A division and I work in the B division.
I would appreciate it if next time I ask a question that you would give me the benefit of the doubt. If I'm going to disagree with you, I'll do it without asking a two-part question and I will do it respectfully. I'm not your enemy.
Sorry. But I thought you were doing something similar to this.....
Person A (Me): I've heard from a message board I've been reading that girls from Queens are better than girls from Staten Island even though the Queens girls are gold-diggers looking for a way out of the ghetto and a free ride, while the girls from SI still have their faults, but are easier to get along with, look better, aren't as loud, and don't have bad attitudes. So what's up with all this SI girl hating?
Person B (You): Have you ever been to New York?
Person A: ...No
Person B: Well, who are you to judge what we have going on down here? You've never been to New York. You all probably don't have any girls worth looking at down there in Houston. Furthermore, our worst girls are 10x better than your best girls. What do you have to say about that?! Besides, at least we have...
I think you get the picture. Sorry, about going off, but I'm used to getting that type of response in a debate.
No problem RTS. On my part though, I could've worded the question a little better.
New technology always needs a little shakeout. The military knows that well enough..
When Chrysler was working on the original prototypes of the M-1battle tank for the Army, the press went to town publicizing the comical, embarrassing and even shocking problems encountered on the proving grounds. There was even speculation that the only thing the tank could do well was fire a white flag out of the cannon tube with I SURRENDER written on it after it threw a track and got stuck in the mud.
But most people were not paying attention as the bugs on a superb concept got worked out, one by one, by dedicated engineers and technicians who clearly strived for excellence. Years later, this "screwed up, overpriced white elephant" showed up in the Gulf and showed that there was nothing in the world that could even come close to matching it.
The R-142 (and R-143) are needed to help bring MTA up to 2001 standards for comfort, efficiency and ADA access. If MTA people and the car builders show the same kind of dedication and tenacity, then the R-142 will develop into a superb, world class railcar.
Well, no one seems to want to believe that the R142s will some day (a few months) have the few minor bugs that plague them worked out. Instead they use their biased opinions of them to make them seem WAY worse than they really are. When an R142 explodes or something drastic like that, maybe I'll let up, but not until then. The Redbirds had their share of problems too when they were first introduced and they definately have their problems now. I can understand nostalgia, but this is getting a tad ridiculous.
Well, no one seems to want to believe that the R142s will some day (a few months) have the few minor bugs that plague them worked out.
You obviously do, and I DO (I hate the Repulsive Rustbirds).
Is there ANYONE out there who agrees with me on this unnessecary R142 hating?
Right here.
DOWN WITH THE REPULSIVE RUSTBIRDS
When I was younger I whined forever about the present so-called redbirds and their predecessors replacing the old High-V and Low-V that I loved so much Likewise seeing old steam vessels in the harbor being replaced by modern ones or just plain removed from service; the GMC busses of the 1946-53 or so period biting the dust, etc.
Later, in the 70's it was watching the beloved R1-9 die a slow death and hearing so many train personnel calling them rotten names. Well, the time has come, the walrus said.We all reach a point in life where we accept the fact that we can't stop moving on and nothing can be forever as much as we'd like it. Yes, I wish I could ride the IRT as I knew it in the 50's but it's gone so I enjoy, for now, the redbirds.Which will be gone too.
Will I like the R142? No. The ambience is awful. I do like modern CTA, Amtrak superliners, the R44/46, etc. I can't stand the R62 interiors...on and on.
I detested having a computer screen replace gages and cut out cocks on the controls of a diesel loco, but had to live with it.
If the R142 doesn't work it is that KISS was forgotten and as too often is done they're paying for trying to re=invent the wheel.It has happened before. But modern technology has worked elsewhere..even if I'd rather be riding classics.But live the memories and enjoy what you have.
Has the bashing gone on too long? Even this dinosaur thinks it has.
||///|_|//////|_|//////|_|//////|_|///||
||\\\|=|\\\\\\|=|\\\\\\|=|\\\\\\|=|\\\||
secret seating design for R/143 reveals angle seating to allow all seat passengers to view LED tv screens that will display view of track ahead. This is an effort to use hi-tech to appease railfans that will lose there beloved "storm doors" .
The seating has an appealing Herringbone design from its creator
"heypaul herringbone seating corporation"
The system is having problems adjusting to sudden changes in light levels when entering or exiting stations or portals.
avid
just LOOKS uncomfortable.
Probably worser.
right on south ferry !!
those new STYROFOAM scrap junkers will
not last 1/2 as long as the redbirds did !!
right on south ferry !!
those new STYROFOAM scrap junkers will
not last 1/2 as long as the redbirds did !!
Of course they wont last half as long. They'll last LONGER than the REPULSIVE RUSTBIRDS!!!
any MTA affiliated schools in NYC that are not far from 149th GC?
The new WMATA cars WILL NOT enter service tomorrow. Instead, their first revenue runs will be later this month. I have been e-mailing a WMATA employee lately and hopefully, he will tell me an exact date as to when they will enter service.
I finally looked at the pictures of the L.A. Rail lines in the photos section here. The Red line looks quite nice.
I like the style of the cars they use, they are modern yet the sides have the classic look of an R32 in some ways.
What are the speeds like on the Red line? What about the green and blue lines? How are fares paid? And what kind of signal system do they use?
Sorry so many questions, I just didn't find the information there.
The cars on the LACMTA Red Line are basically the same design as those in Baltimore and Miami. The LA cars were built by Breda.
The top speed is 70 miles an hour on the Red Line,usually achieved between Hollywood and Universal City as that's quite a long stretch.
Presently on the Green and Blue Lines the top speed is 55 miles an hour. Supposedly it will be boosted to 65 miles per hour when all the Siemens P2000 cars are in service there.
Fare collection is "honor system" or "Proof Of Payment" [POP]. You buy your fare at TVM's at the stations before boarding the train. Passengers are checked by transit police officers at random. If one does NOT have a valid proof of faare payment, they are issued a citation that could cost quite a few bucks (a LOT more than paying the fare would have been).
I'm sorry I cannot answer questions regarding the signal systems though. I haven't the foggiest. I'm gonna guess that it is all cab signals, as I don't recall ever seeing line signals other than around switches (interlockings).
The L.A. M.T.A. "RED LINE" junk subway cars are being scrapped to keep others alive!
many " operators" have told me here!!
Too many of those UGLY italian / breda built cars were " over ordered" & overstocked then the entire "RED LINE" will never need !! It would be a joke except we had to pay for this junk!!
also NO COMPATIBILITY with the green & blue lines at all A BIG MISTAKE made by the same folks who built the " Towering Inferno" TAJ MAHAL ( the los angeles m.t.a. hdq ) !!
the RED LINE might as well be an AUTOMATED PEOPLE MOVER !! it sucks!!
AC dosent work either except in the WINTER TIME !!! geeeeeeeezzzzz!!!!!!
thats my comment folks, thank you!!
salaamallah
http://photos.yahoo.com/asiaticcommunications
check out these ugly subway cars for yourself!!
this post is NOT directed at any poster just the subject of the post ..............................!!!
All Los Angeles Mass Transit IS THE DEVIL.\\/
@ you must have been here..!!! right ??
your post sounds good to me !!
All Los Angeles Mass Transit IS THE DEVIL.\\
right for the 2nd time .....agreed ...
by the way " driving sucks" ...!!!
Wow ... could you imagine such a fare control system in NEW YORK?!?! Heh.
Still sounds faster than anything in the NYC subway system though.
Are there any systems slower than NYC??
Never fear, the L.A. system isn't terribly useful to most people living in L.A. I know several people/families living in the area, and when I ask about the subway they look at me funny, like I'm asking about a foreign country. "The subway... that's downtown! Why would I go downtown?"
LA is just one big parking lot.
Yeah that's a problem with L.A., most of the stuff is in the suburbs, so most people don't even go to the city. L.A. is like one big suburb.
Their city is nothing compared to NYC. Of course this is biased, coming from a NY area person.
L.A. may have warmer weather, no snow, and better radio but I'm staying put right here in the NY Metro!
"Never fear, the L.A. system isn't terribly useful to most people living in L.A."
And yet LA's Blue Line and Red Line both have respectable ridership numbers similar to lines on the Chicago, Philadelphia, or Boston rail systems. Neither has crossed the 100,000/day figure yet, but then the CTA's Orange or Green Lines don't either.
Well if it's any consolation, I got the N train in the 60 St tube to do 63 mph going to the city.
i just received this months era bulletin, and enclosed was a notice of a tour of grand central station on sat feb 24 at 9:45 am...the trip costs $10 and will include the architectural and structural features of the terminal... various kinds of equipment, hidden passageways, platforms, and other unusual places will be visited... who knows if you're really lucky they'll show you where the national headquarters of the era are located inside the terminal...
i don't know how many years ago it was, but i was on the first era sponsored tour of grand central and we walked along the steam tunnels that go under park avenue... that was the highlight of the tour for me, as the steam tunnels had always captured my imagination... i think the metro north police had cleared out the tunnels of its occupants before the tour... the heat from the steam pipes was quite noticeable... i don't know if they have gone back into the steam tunnels in later years....
the tour will meet at 9:45am at 42nd street and park avenue, where you will told how to find grand central terminal...
you can call 212-986-4482 for info on mondays 6-7 pm
I am creating an experiment to try to have a universal rail/bus website update page. In this way, one will be able to get update messages from all participating sites by joining the single Yahoo Club I have created. For instance, provided that TransiTalk, NYC Subway Resources, and Oren's Transit Page all join, you can get all their update messages provided you sign up! Both webmasters and web browsers are welcome and needed! The club isn't worthwhile without both!
The URL for the club is http://clubs.yahoo.com/transitsiteupdates.
I will update on the sucess of this experiment as time goes on.
Sincerely,
Oren H.
Webmaster of Oren's Transit Page
http://www.orenstransitpage.com
I got this when I tried to access,
The requested URL /transitsiteupdates was not found on this server.
Additionally, a 404 Not Found error was encountered while trying to use an ErrorDocument to handle the request.
Peace,
ANDEE
Sorry, Andee. I made a mistake.
The correct URL is: http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/transitsiteupdates.
Sorry for the confusion!
My bad!
The correct URL is: http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/transitsiteupdates.
Sorry for the confusion!
My bad!
The correct URL is: http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/transitsiteupdates.
Sorry for the confusion!!!
I already maintain lists of pages by date and newest images. If you want to use that data somehow please feel free but I don't have the time to update a third party site when I make updates...
I know. Fair enough. I was just using NYCSR as an example.
Andee, the pic you posted to the yahoo site (train rex) didn't come up.
According to the February, 2001 issue of "The Bulletin" which is published by the New York Division of the Electric Railroaders' Association there are R-33s running on the No. 6 line. The numbers of the cars are unknown at this time but if anyone should spot any of the R-33s on the No.6 line please tell everyone about them and which (car nos.) they are.
BMTJeff
20 239th St Yard R-33s are assigned to the Pelham Line in exchange for 20 R-62As from Westchester Yard which operate the Dyre Av Line OPTO Service. There are NO specific set of cars assigned to either line; R-33 and R-62A assignments on the 5 and 6 change regularly.
In addition to the R-26/28/29 assignments, R-33s 8806-35 are also assigned to the 5, with 8836-55 assigned to the 4, 8856-9215 go to the 2, minus 20 cars which go to Pelham. You will see an occasional R-26/28/29 on the 2 if needed.
And let us not forget that R-33s 9216-9305 are assigned to the 4.
-Stef
Two questions:
1) Which r62's are on the OPTO Dyre Avenue Line, or does it vary?
2) Is their a "train roster" posted anywhere, detailing which trains run on which lines? (It probably would be easiar to maintain than the bus lists, since trains don't change routes all too often - except on the E, F, and R lines.
Thanks
flx7595
1) As I was saying, Pelham R-62As that go to Dyre Av vary. For instance, one week you might see 1651-55 and 1706-10. Another week, you might see, 1806-1810 and 1866-70. You just never know what you might get. This week was a little more unusual. 1691-1700 were together. The yard is usually in the habit of mixing everything up. I for one would prefer to see cars coupled in an orderly manner. It should be easier to drill cars out with defects, or so it may seem.
2) You can find material here on the site for rosters, check it out.
-Stef
Didn't someone earlier say that they'd seen 9XXX on the 6, that was outta Woodlawn or something?
BMTman i saw 92xx running on #6 yesterday & the number was 9226-9227, 9249-9248, 9278-9279 & other i couldn't see it because the frist 4 cars were inside the tunnel & other 6 was outside before entering Hunt Point Ave
Peace Out
David Justiniano
BTW: I will find out the numbers because i take #6 train home after work.
BTW it #9245-44 not #9248-49. The last 6 cars i saw is 9245-9244, 9278-9279, 9226-9227 on #6 line.
Peace Out
David Justiniano
Subtalkers, does anyone know of any model train manufacturers BESIDES MTH that are making model SUBWAY cars? I'd sure like to know cause MTH is taking FOREVER to distribut theirs, is charging $$$$$ for theirs, and in my opinion could've done a better job on the realism and the range of models offered! Thanks in Advance, Thomas :>
Yes. Images Replicas produces in both HO and N scales - and they aren't toys, they're excellent models. Not cheap, but...
And I wouldn't complain about MTH too loudly - they might hear you and stop production altogether. I'm not into O scale myself but be thankful they're doing anything at all; the interest level is barely there to sustain subway products.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
A friend and I will be trying to assemble a four-car HO R-68 set (easier to adapt existing model rolling stock when modelling a 75' car and not worrying about A and B car types). It will probably take a few months to get it right. Image replica's cars and unpowered. We'll try to give at least one car a power unit, and see about creating a reasonable interior...
Seconded ... be grateful despite the rough ride. I have N gauge and after years of looking for ANYTHING subway like and seeing that O gauge seemed to be all there was, ended up buying four four car sets of Kato JR cars that look vaguely like a cross between redbirds and R-32s with full width cabs (traditional Japanese jobbies) ... every time I went to a shop or looked through catalogs, couldn't find diddle out there. All I ever heard was "why don't you model your own?"
Now ... if someone made N gauge EL STRUCTURES in sections, that'd be neat. All I've seen do far is the Kato "viaduct" kit and it just doesn't do it for me. So it's all grade level. I think my wigs would think I completely lost it if my desktop subway system became elevated. Heh.
Well, I've managed to combine Kato viaduct sections and Micro-Engineering bridge kits to come up with a believeable West Side line - not an exact replica but it captures the feel. Now if I ever get it painted and weathered...
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I do have a misearble sort of el as the two track mainline (with full four way interlocking at each end at the two terminals) leaves my desk to go across filing cabinets to the bookcase in the back of the room - the file cabinets were about two inches lower than the ends so I ended up using a bunch of Atlas deck truss bridges and flexrail for the sorta elevated sections there. But it sure don't look right. Keeps the line flat at least. One of these days, have to build the extension to the other desk in the back of the office where "Tree-ler Park" station awaits construction ... maybe I'll build it when the 2nd Avenue line opens down yonder. Heh.
I saw the Kato viaduct and it's pretty and all - but reminds me more of LIRR than NYCTA ... have had many fantasies of spare time sufficent to go nuts with plastruct but then again if I had *that* much time, I'd rather spend it in Branford. :)
Chris there are a few that I know of, but most produce stuff only spuradically.
(1) Model Traction Supply Co. (aka MTS NOT to be confused with MTH, or Mike's Train House): produces a line of brass subway and trolley cars in HO scale. There may be an O gauge among the lot, but that's a rarity. Brass is pricey, but the detailing is spectacular. In the past they produced the R-21 and all variants thereof; a three-car R-10 set; and a beautiful Nickel-plated brass 2-car set of the R-38 cars. MTS should have an active website.
(2) Allied Transit Services (O gauge only). They imported the beautiful O scale model of the BMT Bluebirds. These had FULL interior detailing, but were unpowered units. This were a bit expensive ($600 for a two-car unit), mostly due to their having been manufactured in Russia. ATS is an IMPORTER only. They do not produce their own models -- at least not yet. I believe they are involved with the pre-production work to have the Russian maufacturer produce an accurate O scale R-1/9 series car. Stay tuned for more details on that!
(3) Q-Car Co. This is a long-time manufacturer of R/T and subway car accessories and epoxy-resin cast car bodies. Back in the 70's Q-Car produced some fairly decent HO scale models of the BMT Standards and R-1/4 cars. They no longer produce these, and now seem to have concentrated on O-gauge trolley equipment. They may still carry their line of die-cast metal HO scale subway underbody detailing and trucks. There O scale subway trucks are a sight to behold! There is a website for this company.
(4) Image Replicas. They carry a line of plastic and/or resin subway cars and accessories. These are available in kit form only (build it and paint it yourself) but because of this are less expensive overall. I believe they have the full-range of IRT R-21 types (earlier porthole types and 1964 WF configurations). The newer R-62's are part of the line as are the just released R-1/9 cars that are even better in detail than the old Q-Car versions.
Thought that would help you out (sorry about the long-winded review, but it's good for those who are not yet into the modelling end of the hobby).
BTW, check the 'Transfer Station' site here at nyc.subway.org for the actual links for some of the above.
BMTman
There are several and those I know of are listed on this page.
-Dave
I think that the price asked for the R-42s was reasonable as is the price asked for the R-21's but it would be nice to have them in dealer stock in a timely manner but I think they will be worth the wait. I have built model railroads in all scales from N to Lionel Standard over the last 35 years and have operated real locomotives as well and feel that "O" tinplate has the most realistic "feel" of any model trains. GO, MTH
According to the MTH website, the long-awaited R-21s (both proto sound and locosound) are once again being delayed. The delivery is now scheduled for 6/15/2001. Live in hope - Die in dispair.
Oh well....they also pushed back the date of their DCS (command control) system. Many of the advanced features of the Protosound-2 trains can't be accessed without DCS (although they'll still run fine in "Conventional Mode", a la the R42 sets).
Some time this month, a company called Digital Dynamics is introducing a new circuit board called "The Equalizer" that will convert Protosound-1 trains to Lionel TMCC Command Control. Unlike the existing TrainAmerica board, these boards will supposedly let you retain your "sounds-in-neutral" sequences, which in the case of the R-42 sets, means you'll still be able to run the automatic station stop. TrainAmerica is also working with QSI (the manufacturer of Protosound-1 boards) to produce a similar board, although I believe it will cost more.
Does anyone know MTH's tentative priceing for its to be issued evtually NYCT subway cars? Whatever it is I'm SURE its still way cheaper than Model Replicas, which is $$$$$ish. Thanks. Thomas:>
30-2198-0 MTA R-21 4-car Subway Set w/Loco Sound $200.00
30-2198-1 MTA R-21 4-car Subway Set w/Proto-Sound $300.00
Original Delivery Date was Nov, 2000
Current Tentative Delivery is now Jun 15, 2001
Some dealers may offer a small discount on these prices.
I am unaware of add-on cars being catalogued as yet.
OH MY GAWD!!! *gasp* this puts them in the price range of Replica Image, what we clearly need is more suppliers to help bring the price down, as the demand is clearly there!! Thanks 4 the info, Peace,Tom:>
What is there Friggin' problem???!!
It's getting annoying how every couple of months their delivery date gets pushed back.
BMTman
They may be trying to avoid the problem that turned up with the R-42 D Train!
At this point, with roughly 60 feet of track remaining to complete my subway system, I am not hard pressed yet for the set. However, it is getting frustrating and I really am getting somewhat impatient too.
I have never seen the MTH R-42 E train in operation. Is the interior lighting on the original E train dimmer than on the earlier MTH R-42 D train?
Karl, so far I've only run my R-42 D's. I'm very impressed the way they can pull a 6 car train over some of my prototypical grades with little trouble or wheel slip. I can't say the same for my K-Line locos that pull my work train (ok, so I play while I work). However, I assume that you are referring to the difference in the lighting intensity between the original cars and the add-ons. It is quite noticeable although I like the looks of the add-ons better.
Steve, I guess I was wondering if the original R-42 E train had the same bright illumination as the original R-42 D. Since the E came out at the same time as the D add-ons I was thinking that it might have the same dimmer bulbs, and not have the bright illumination that the original four car D had!
I had also heard that the bulb locatons in the E power unit were different from where they were in the D.
Train Dude:
Just out of curiosity, what type of track are you using?
I'm using Gargraves Phantom flex track for most of the layout. I've used some Ross & Gargraves curves where I wanted really parallel curves, especially since I have some segments where I have 4 parallel tracks. Gargraves 042 switches look great on my Wye (9 switches, 1 30 degree and 1 45 degree crossing make up the whole junction) leading to the Hellsgate bridge. I also used a few Ross custom switches - the yard is made of the ross 4 track yard switch. Subway uses 1/2 plywood roadbed as I wanted a prototypical rumble. By my estimation, my subway will have roughly 4 scale miles of track. The class I will be a huge oval with a yard that goes around the subway.
With all that model RR stuff, where do you find room to
store the lane resurfacing and drain unclogging equipment>
[(my) Subway uses 1/2 plywood roadbed as I wanted a prototypical rumble.]
Hmmm, hadn't thought of that before, have to keep it in mind.
How about the squeal on the curves, what can be done for that ? Play a tape I guess.
Mr t__:^)
Please see my post in an earlier thread for the complete answer to this. Basically the issue is that MTH had gotten some erroneous information regarding the scale details of these cars, which was subsequently corrected through the efforts of the New York City Model Transit Association. Corrections to the cars were made, but the delays put these further back in the schedule, as other models had to fill the slot during the reiterative design process. The cars are currently in production in Korea, and are expected to ship to MTH in March, 2001. Expect them at dealers about a month to two months later. MTH is still waiting for the Protosounds 2 software to be completed for these, so that may delay things slightly beyond these dates.
It never ceasese to amaze me how fickle railfans can be! They are worse than sports fans! For years, we waited in vain for anyone to produce an affordable subway model, bemoaning the limited availability and high costs of the limited run models produced by the cottage industry suppliers (BTW - have you tried to order a Q-Car Co. R-17? Don't expect Quentin to make any more in this lifetime!). We hoped beyond hope for someone to hear our futile cries. Now a MAJOR MANUFACTURER has heard us, and is COMMITTED to producing models of NYCTA equipment, not only a one-off deal, but future models as well. And what do we do? Cry like a five year old when we can't get the toys when we want them! PATIENCE PLEASE! Good things come to those who wait! I'm sure these models (and the future releases) will be worth waiting for!
The first run was a little late. Okay. Afterward a few more products were later.
When you start to see bigger Gaps in your delivery date, you better not promise or announce a delivery date unless you can come relatvely close. Perhaps MyTH should have set a 2002 date. Then delivered before and been a hero.
Most user/collectors feel they have been duped to pre order with a deposit and have only talk to show for it.
Other producers take heed. There is a market! And MyTH is slow to meet more then one delivery date. He , Mike, is using the pre-rollouts to test the waters. Well the demand is there! I'd love to see Lionel produce Standards,D-types and R 1/9s with the detail of the MU's . The info is out there . I'm sure NYCTA would issue a license or two to the various makers.
Hello K-Line, Williams , Weaver. Theres a new market out here.
avid
Excellent, avid. That's exactly the point...MTH should stop making annoucements about dates that they know they can't keep and stop jerking those who pre-ordered around.
BMTman
Remember, no one is holding a gun to your head to buy these models! If you don't like the service that a manufacturer is providing, don't buy their product. Simple as that. As far as Lionel producing Standards, R1-9's and D Types, don't hold your breath! A few years ago, I would have said Lionel would NEVER produce a model subway train. With the new management, that may change. BUT, and it's a big but, you have to remember that even with all the rabid subway fans out there, we represent a VERY SMALL percentage of the model train market. These models may still be too specialized for a major manufacturer to produce. How many people out in Nebraska do you know of that have any idea what a "D Type" was? Even MTH, in selecting the models that they have chosen to produce, were careful enough to select a prototype that is either generic enough or that is still running so that it is familiar to todays market. After all, people in Nebraska can watch "NYPD Blue" or "King of Queens" on the tube. That said, I'd love to see a reasonable priced set of pre-war equipment, but I just don't see it happening from the "big guys". Allied Model Transit has announced they will produce O SCALE R-1/9's, made in the former Soviet Union as fully finished, detailed and painted static models that can be powered by Q-Car Co. power trucks. Check out the "Modeling the New York City Subway" at www.monmouth.com/~patv for more info. Being scale models though, these will not be cheap. BTW, I don't work for MTH and have no affiliation with them. My involvement in the R-21 project was as a member of the New York City Model Transit Association only.
Frank
I am touched by your loyalty.
However, I have, over the years called many dealers. The Transit products do just fine. Most Railfans preorder because DEMAND is that high. If you don't , you miss advertised MSRP or prebuy discounts. So please no B.S. about Scratchback Ohideiho. Railfans and modelers WILL have an idea or know where to go to find out. I believe a lot of "City kids wpould have preferred and could identify with Transit as apposed to "Santa Fe" I, and other train fans would fantasize that Budd RDC were Subways.
The Model and toy industry has been kind of static until about the time MYH came along. He gave the industry a needed burst of diversity.
I don't fear the market will be glutted to soon if others got into the rapid transit scene. I like interurbans as well. I have K-Line as well as Lionel. So I do go to others if they match my wants with their products. Lionel was late too. Just so they don't crank out disinformation with a bigger hollow promise.
avid
Modelers all over the country buy RAILROAD models while Subway/rapid transit cars mainly appeal to those who live in or near the city those cars operate in. I THINK THOSE WHO CRITICIZE MTH ARE DEFINITELY IN THE MINORITY but it would be nice to get those 'birds on my layout soon. BE PATIENT, BE GRATEFUL, NO WHINING
Well said John!
Yes but think of the numbers of people in the cities compared to other places. The Bronx alone double the population of the whole state of Montana which is 3 times the area of NYState!. Good; I like it this way.Therefore so many more rail hobbyists in areas where buyers seek urban rail transit models.[also buy mainline RR stuff]
Next: an ad in Classic Toy Trains, from Ready to Roll Trains in Miami.Judging from subtalk the things are Not ready to roll but then why advertize? Advertised are Premier MTA R32 Subway set; Railking R21's, and Chicago Subway.
E mail address: www.ReadyToRollTrains.com
Phone 305-688-8868; order line 877-RTR-TRNS
Maybe I've been of some help but sounds unlikely.
are there any MTA affiliated high schools other than Transit Tech?
What is the Transit Authority's policy on heat on subway cars ?
OK, stop laughing! Is there the temperature set very low or is the heat off alltogther?
I believe the lack of heat is to thwart the homeless to "camp out' on the subways. Last year, I rode a #6 to 51st St. to transfer to the (E). The Redbird I rode must have had a defective thermostat. The interior temperature had to be about 80o or better. all windows were open too. So I know the climate system can provide.
Train Dude, Zman, Jeff H. or anyone else. Know anything about this ?
Bill "Newkirk"
Each car has an exterior thermometer which is supposed to provide interior climate control. However sometimes these units aren't working properly.
Sometimes you enter a car which has no heat which can be attributed to a bad thermometer, a tripped 600 volt circuit breaker (either floor heat or overhead heat), or a circuit breaker turned off by a crew member (a no no) to deter the homeless.
On the other hand a car's heating system can be working overtime causing a car to become very hot. Just like, but not as bad as the IRT cars in the 80's. If you've ever sat in the "hot seat" before you'll know what I mean. YEEOWCH! The hot seats were always marked by a huge burn mark.
Most times the car thermometer is the fault for any heat problems.
Some cars seem to have worse heat than others. Some of the worst, the R46's that run on Queens Blvd. It feels as if there's little or no heat in them. R44's don't fare much better. Some of the best heat is on the R68's on the B division, and the Redbirds on the Flushing line.
All the other cars have mediocre heat.
The temperature ranges are as follows:
59 degrees farenheit and below - heat is called for.
60 degrees farenheit to 70 degrees farenheit - fans only, no heat or cooling.
71 degrees farenheit & higher. AC comes in. It varies over a few degrees but usually in this pattern.
71 degrees = #1 end low cool
72 degrees = both ends low cool
73 degrees = #1 end high cool + #2 end low cool
74 degrees = both ends high cool
The reason there is no heat called for until the car temp is below 60 degrees is because most people are fully dressed for cold weather, including coats and hats. Having heat on above 60 degrees could be uncomfortable.
BTW, John's assessment of the heat is directly backwards from how the train crews feel. R-44 & R-46 have cab heaters on both sides of the cab so the cabs are nicely warm. On the R-68 & R-68A, only one side of the cab is heated and is insufficiently so.
5049running on the
145th St, Manhattan Coney Island
I noticed that one today too. It joins the ranks of 5116 and a few others. This may be a sign of their planning on purchasing digital signs for the 68as, otherwise they'd have replaced them by now.
Since R is extended to Jamaica Center this weekend, there is good chance that I will see a lot of R32 R trains; therefore, I decided to go to NYC by Amtrak yesterday to see these R32 R trains and take this great opportunity to videotape along the R line because most of the time R trains are mostly R46s.
After arriving at Penn Station, I went to Grand Central to get the January 2001 version of the Map. I was disappointed to see these maps are multi-lingual versions. I thought the original version of the Map would come first.
Then I board an #6 train to 59th Street to transfer to a Queens-bound R train. I was somewhat disappointed to see it was an R46 train. However, when I looked outside, there were indeed a lot of R32 R trains. I was surprised that R46 R trains are more than I thought. I estimated that ratio between R46 R trains and R32 R trains is nearly 4:5.
Since I have already videotaped E train, there was no need for me to start from Jamaica Center. Therefore, I hopped to an R32 R train at Sutphin Blvd and began my roundtrip of videotaping.
It took three hours to finish an R train roundtrip. It was very tiring. However, without the G.O., I have much less chance to board an R32 R train, let alone videotaping along the R line.
But my return trip back to Maryland is a painful one. My train--Acela Regional Train #167, had mechanical problems at Pelham Bay. This train is supposed to leave NY Penn at 8:30 PM. My train did not leave Penn Station until 11:22 PM. I arrived at New Carrollton at 2:30 AM. Three hours late! I have to write a letter to Amtrak to request for Service Guarantee Certificate to get part of my money back.
Chaohwa
I didn't even get the chance to go railfanning this weekend. Looks like you had pretty much the luck I had last weekend, there were alot of R46 R trains around.
I was really scared that there were a lot of R46 R trains yesterday. That is part of the reason that when I saw an R32 R train at Sutphin Blvd, I hopped on that train to begin my camcording.
Chaohwa
I picked up a non-multilingual Jan. 2001 map last week at Grand Central. They must have run out.
Witch Part Of Grand Central you got the Map From?
Now that is a dedicated fan. Traveling from Maryland to NYC to go railfanning? God Bless!
aeticle in L A Times Richard Kiley in London
>>http://www.latimes.com/news/nation/20010204/t000010489.html<<
After reading some of the Dual Contracts, the proposed lines from those times in the past look like they could be useful to the rest of us out here. Guys, is there any flicker of hope that some consideration would be given to any of the poposed lines mentioned in the contracts, besides the Second Ave. line, which is still being talked about ad nauseaum? I get that old funny feeling that some day after the rest of us are just distant memories, some political whiz would discover the contracts and make a name for himself. If any of them are viable, which ones show the most promise?
The Dual Contracts were completed, there is nothing left to be built.
The Second Avenue Subway was not part of the Dual Contracts System.
He must be talking about the IND second system. Dual contracts. Second system. He's slightly confused.
You are right, the second system. Are there any viable proposals in the second system which may eventually see reality?
Only the Second Avenue Subway survives.
Maybe a long time down the line, some of those Queens and Brooklyn lines will see the light of day, like a Utica Avenue Subway and Nostrand Avenue Subway extension, and an extension of the Queens Boulevard Line along Hillside Avenue
Well, I can dream, I guess. Maybe my great grandkids will see that, but I doubt I ever will. An extension of the Queens Blvd. line to Springfield Blvd - was that actually proposed? There is a large plaza in that area which almost screams for that kind of development.
What about any proposed lines to the Nassau County line? I believe that it would compete with the LIRR, but both the subways and the LIRR are run by the same agency, so where is the conflict? The main objective should be to move commuters to and from work as quickly as possible to alleviate traffic on the roads. Hope the decision makers get the point of that.
An extension of the Queens Blvd. line to Springfield Blvd - was that actually proposed?
Not via Queens Blvd, but via Liberty Avenue. From my History of the IND:
The Liberty Avenue Line: Extension of the Fulton Street line, then under construction, from Eastern Pkwy/Broadway Junction along Liberty Avenue to about Wyona Avenue, then along the BMT Liberty Avenue El from Grant Avenue to Lefferts Blvd (which would have been "recaptured"). It would continue via Brinckerhoff Avenue and Hollis Avenues all the way to Springfield Blvd., a distance of 8.5 miles. The line would have run as a 4 track subway to Grant Ave, 3 track elevated to 180th St., and 2 track elevated to Springfield Blvd. There would have been a short 2-track spur running along 180th St. and then Jamaica Avenue to connect to the end of the Jamaica El at 168th St. In addition, there would also be a connection to the proposed Hulban storage yard.
In 1939, a proposal had the IND Queens Blvd line extended eastward, first to 184th Street, then to 212th Street as a 4-track subway, finally to Hillside Avenue and Little Neck Parkway as a 2-track subway.
--Mark
Great re-cap. I was salivating as I read through the could have beens.
You saw some of the BMT ones, too?
--Mark
I still have hope for the Local tracks heading north out of 57th and 7th under Central Park. I beleive they were to go to Morningside Heights.
I'd be satisfied if they went as far as the layup track on CPW between 76nd and 81st. Coming up from a fly under, then having the option to serve the Express of Local tracks. It would give the 6th, B'way and 8th a pot full of flexibility .
avid
I take it that there is not even a snowball's chances in hell for those plans to ever become reality.
They'll get built right after NYC becomes part of New Jersey.
Actually, it is not a confusing question at all.
There were routes planned and never built, or provisions for same, during the era of the Dual Contracts, both before and after, and these completely preceded the IND. For example:
the L line, elevated under Brooklyn from Montrose Ave until Bushwick - Aberdeen (not counting the area around Wilson Ave) was originally intended to be elevated. It took years to decide on the actual route. In fact there is a small area along the L line that curves in anticipation of this elevated link that was never built, but was mostly obscured by then-current construction of today's route.
The bellmouths south of Whitehall Street that people constantly mistake for a planned route to Staten Island, were built in anticipation of a line to Atlantic Ave in Brooklyn.
There are very short instances of tunnel just north of the closed Myrtle Ave station in Brooklyn for an anticipated loop to reverse trains not heading to Manhattan.
There was a plan to have a BMT Crosstown Line that would have continued north of today's Franklin Ave shuttle to the elevated Queensboro Plaza station, which was originally built to accommodate this connection. Any such evidence was removed when the northern portion of this originally 8 track structure was torn down.
The 4th Avenue subway south of 59th Street was built to allow expansion to 4 tracks.
The bellmouths just west of the Canal St bridge station (Sea Beach) were built in an anticipation of a crosstown route under Canal Street.
Chambers Street's westernmost tracks (the ones nearest to the Lexington Ave line) were originally built to connect to the Brooklyn Bridge. (Imagine if that really happened .... we might have been able to railfan an R-40 slant across the Brooklyn Bridge!!)
Finally, there was also a proposal for a crosstown Queens route, sometimes called the Queens Parkway Line, where most of the line would have been in an open cut surrounded by parklands on each side, and it would have run nearly all the way to the Nassau county border. If memory serves me right, this was dated approximately 1922.
(As an aside, I'm nearly done with the first installment of the BRT/BMT's history before 1913 for this site; this is info I learned while focusing on this first installment, which will cover 1878 (the Brooklyn, Bath & Coney Island Railroad) to just before the Dual Contracts in 1913.)
It would seem that there were some forward thinking engineers at that time, too. The IND wasn't so unique, after all, in their planning for later construction, though they DID do it to a much more considerable extent than the other companies.
--Mark
I have a 1947 subway map ... more has gone away then has been added in the big city :-(
Mr t
All,
I would like to send out the letter early in the week. If you want to sign it please let me know by Monday 5pm at the latest because I will print it out at work.
To read it, go here: Message 190923
-Dave
Is it true that electric buses cant use snow chains, and have problems in the snow? If so, what do they do instead?
I don't know but I'd bet you that if they can't use snow chains on electric buses they would have to use diesel powered buses instead.
BMTJeff
Having never seen an electric bus, I can't say. But they have them in some cities that get nasty weather, so I think we can assume they have no greater problems than diesel buses.
-Hank
I also wish to add that electric buses don't produce nasty fumes unlike diesel buses. As a matter of fact they don't produce any fumes. However the power plants that produce the energy cause their own problems such as diesel fumes in some cases but at least they're not going into peoples faces.
BMTJeff
Having never seen an electric bus
You're less likely to hear one than see one. They're almost silent.
I've decided to make the move from Philly to NY some time this summer. Any suggestions on affordable, transit-friendly neighborhoods? I was thinking Sunnyside, Greenpoint, etc.
Investigate:
College Point, Astoria, Roosevelt Island (esp. with the new 63rd St service coming on-line), Forest Hills/Kew Gardens. Also, parts of Manhattan above Central Park have started gentrifying and there are some great deals available with good safety in the 110's, 120's even 130's and 140's (streetwise) in Manhattan.
If you don't mind riding LIRR, then Bayside/Oakland Gardens offers 800 acres of parkland, access to a jogging trail going along the Bay, a wetlands preserve, a lake with fish, turtles, cormorants, nesting swans and Mallards, and LIRR and very good bus service going anywhere you want.
Also: Jersey City - the Newport Center area has very nice high-rise housing around the corner from Pavonia PATH station and NJ Transit's new light rail.
I have not included an exhaustive list. There are many other places.
I actually plan on coming to NYC to live there in about 2 and 1/2 years. I want to attend NYU and I will most likely be living on campus. But it's after college that I'm worried about as I know that NYC's cost of living is VERY high. I've heard one bedrooms in a decent area can go for 900 dollars a month, while in Houston that much will get you a three bedroom in some of our best areas with all the good amenities. So I want to know if there are any affordable places preferably in Manhattan where I can go?
For $900 you'd hardly find anything decent.
Arti
First of all, if you are talking about your own apartment as a single person, you're talking about living large. I moved to Kingsbridge/Bronx with three roomate/friends in 1984, and you'll have to consider doing the same. When I was in graduate school, I lived in an apartment with three foreigners, in New Jersey.
Second, you are trading off commute time, price, and crime rate. Crime is down, so if you are (or don't mind living with) Afro-Americans and Latinos, there are some places to go. I'd suggest apartment buildings in Midwood (D, Q) and Bay Ridge (R), and two-families in Sunset Park (N/R) in Brooklyn, the big apartment buildings on (but not off) the Grand Concourse (B/D), Mosholu Parkway (4), and Pelham Parkway (2/5), along with a variety of buildings in Kingsbridge (1/9) and Kingsbridge Heights/Norwood (4/D), in the Bronx. The Stuyvesant Heights Section of Bed-Stuy (A/C) is absolutely beautiful, though the commercial street is not great. In Queens, I'd try Ridgewood (M) and Woodhaven (J/Z).
None of these are Greenwich Village, but if you have to ask, you can't afford it. I'd recommend my own neighborhood (Windsor Terrace) in Brooklyn or Washington Heights (up on the hill near the A/C) and Inwood in northern Manhattan, but it might be too late.
Larry, you left out the fact that Prospect Heights (the other side of Grand Army Plaza) is getting a serious make-over, particularly Washington Ave. There might be some affordable apartments still available there. And of course, Williamsburg might have some things in the 'student price range'.
BMTman
[. I moved to Kingsbridge/Bronx with three roomate/friends in 1984, and you'll have to consider doing the same]
Absolutely not! You probably wanted to respond to the poster I responded to. I have no plans of moving and would not consider moving out of Manhattan and I enjoy not sharing my apartment.
Arti
When I was in the Bronx last year I took a shine to the area around Middletown Road on Pelham line, or Buhre, etc. Middletown isn't far from an area of 2 and 3 family homes and from the ads my sister has sent me the rents aren't out of line with NYC pricing. Not too congested, etc.
I've heard one bedrooms in a decent area can go for 900 dollars a month
Try $2000.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I think its fairly obvious we have allowed our bought-and-paid for elected officials to effectively sell out what progress we had made in the Rent-Control area, lock stock and barrel to the rich landlord interests. Desperate times call for desperate measures, is it maybe time for us to basically nationalize NYC moderate income housing via emminent domain seizures or to at the very least, pass rent rate cap laws in an effort to make NYC and then esp. Manhattan Housing affordable to ALL of the masses once again?!! I think the time is now! Peace, and power to the people, Thomas:/
P.S.BTW- Before voting for ANYONE in November, be sure to check out their actual VOTING RECORD on rent control/housing issues, and not merely listen to the lip-service they all seem to invariably pay to tenants immediately prior to election time.
Man I agree! Well said! (applause)
Even as a conservative I find nothing wrong in what has been said. In fact, I think some of those landlords are nothing but bloodsuckers to begin with. However, correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't rent a lot cheaper in some of the better neighborhood apartment houses in Brooklyn, Queens and the Bronx? It seems most people want to live in Manhattan because of its proximity to employment and entertainment, but with such great public transportation in New York, wouldn't it be better if they tried to housing in one of the outer boroughs where rent is much lower?
(However, correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't rent a lot cheaper in some of the better neighborhood apartment houses in Brooklyn, Queens and the Bronx? It seems most people want to live in Manhattan because of its proximity to employment and entertainment, but with such great public transportation in New York, wouldn't it be better if they tried to housing in one of the outer boroughs where rent is much lower?)
New York is expensive for bigots and snobs. The bigots want to live in areas that are predominatly, if not exclusively, native-born White. The snobs want to live in areas that are predominantly, if not exclusively, college-educated. Those places are expensive. Others are not.
The bigots have been moving out. The snobs suck it up and pay, because what are they going to do, move to Tulsa?
That's a unique take on it, but if you're correct, then well said.
Shhhh! Don't let the secret out. Let the newcomers to NY pay through the nose for Manhattan. We wouldn't want them flowing into Brooklyn, would we?
No, we wouldn't. But only because they are stupid and lazy in the first place. I'm glad you've seen the big picture. You mean to tell me that saving three to five hundred dollars a month isn't worth riding the subway to your place of employment or your chosen place of entertainment? Believe me Philly Guy, if I had to move to the Big Apple, there is no way in hell I'd pay those exhorbitant rents just to live in Manhattan. Besides, it would give me the pleasure of riding the subway. Save money and ride the rails. What more can you ask?
It seems most people want to live in Manhattan because of its proximity to employment and entertainment, but with such great public transportation in New York, wouldn't it be better if they tried to housing in one of the outer boroughs where rent is much lower?
It's all a matter of one's priorities. Some people have to live in Manhattan, the outer boroughs being totally out of the question, and therefore they'll end up paying a lot. Other people will accept the outer borough, and will pay less. Which is no different than the sort of trade-offs people make all the time. If you simply have to have a Playstation 2, you'll pay a premium, both for the system (assuming you can find one) and the games. But if a regular Playstation, or a N64, suits your needs, you'll find some terrific bargains. Housing in NYC is really no different, nor should it be.
Well, except for the market-externalities of rent-controlled housing, which I don't understand other than "you need to know somebody."
Not to mention the fact that some people would cross the River Styx before crossing the River East (or Hudson or :::gasp::: Harlem).
I'd rather cross the River Harlem than cross the city limits into (gasp) Suburbia!
I guess this is already off topic, so I needn't mention it, but:
Before they blasted the boulder between Spuytin Duivil Creek and the Harlem River, did one enter the Hudson and the other enter the East River? I.e. was Manhattan not really an island? Or was there always a waterway from the Hudson to LI Sound along the Harlem River?
I guess this is already off topic, so I needn't mention it, but:
Before they blasted the boulder between Spuytin Duivil Creek and the Harlem River, did one enter the Hudson and the other enter the East River? I.e. was Manhattan not really an island? Or was there always a waterway from the Hudson to LI Sound along the Harlem River?
Manhattan's always been an island. Years ago, however, the Harlem River was barely a river at all in spots, more like a narrow creek.
There is a map available of the original Spuyten Duyvil Creek at brorson.org. The person who runs that site sometimes posts here as Upper Manhattanite.
The site is currently unavailable., but check later (the 1902 Manhattan map).
I just checked in the book "Metropolis" which said that the Philly actor Edwin Forrest (of Walnut St.'s Forrest Theatre, oldest in the nation) established a villa in Riverdale.
Hi --
Since I was mentioned here, I might as well say "hello"!
About the web site: My buddy used to host it for free on a Red Hat machine which he also used to run his business. Unfortunately, a hacker broke into his system and used to to launch attacks on other machines. Because of this, his ISP cut his machine off the net. AAAAARRGH!!
My buddy moved his web pages over to a commercial web hosting service. Since the brorson.org site is a hobby for me, I don't want to shell out big-time money to host it. Therefore, I haven't put the pages on a commercial server. Instead, I continue to bug my buddy to get his machine back onto the web so I can use it for free. As soon as he is back on-line, the maps & neighborhood photos will reappear, and I will post a message here about their return. Meanwhile, I have a new set of photos of Art Deco apartment buildings on the Grand Concourse, as well as an 1865 map of Upper Manhattan, which will also appear on the site when it comes up.
On the subject of NY maps, there is a cool site of old NY maps at:
http://docs.unh.edu/nhtopos/NewYorkList.htm
One of the maps there shows the Manhattan ship canal in 1895, after it was dredged out, but before Marble Hill was attached to the mainland. It is at:
http://docs.unh.edu/NY/harl24sw.jpg
It's kinda big, but is high-res, so it's worth it. The original water between Manhattan and the Bronx is shown clearly running around Marble Hill to the north.
Finally, here is a link to an article about Marble Hill & the construction of the ship canal:
http://www.columbia.edu/cu/bb/oldstuff/bb0313.15.html
Thanks to David Chesler for pointing me to these references.
Stuart
I know what it's like to lose access to a web host, and I know that the free services are a shoddy alternative.
That's why the chat website is no longer available. Nobody ever took up my offer to schedule an IRC ONLY chat.
I'm sure that at some point somebody will notice that the link on top of the Subtalk index leads nowhere.
Why not use an affiliate such as clubs.yahoo.com for chats? Just a suggestion.
Because I want a chat interface that supports IRC. JPilot did that.
I never used it myself, and whenever I tried to convince people to come to chat using an IRC client, they just said "I'll download it later."
I downloaded it, installed it, etc., but come 8 o'clock on Saturday, no one was there.
It's not advertised, I tried.
If I can get at least three other people to agree to be there tonight at 8, then we can get somewhere.
$900? Why would you want to live in a pothole?
Spend a few thousand and get yourself a nice telephone booth.
One of my father's friends lives in a 1-bedroom on Perry St. in Greenwich Village. After a wind-knocking climb up seven flights of stairs, you walk in the door sideways. Once you're in, take 2 steps and you're in the bedroom. One step to the left and you're at the other end of the kitchen. 2 steps and you've just walked thru the wall. One step back and one to the left will take you to the bathroom. Toilet is a half-step to the right, the tub is a half-step to the left.
Unless you plan on getting some room mates or you have alot of money, you might want to reconsider moving to NY. First you will have to have a good paying job BEFORE you move here. You had mentioned $900. Is that your price range? You forget, besides rent, you need to pay for some utilities and food. Also, you want some spending money to go out once in a while. And school supplies is another expense. Bottom line. You will need at least $1500 a month just to survive. More to be comfortable.
BIG AL
PS: See, I monitor subtalk posts also.
IDK where your heard about a $900 apartment in the city but that is impossible unless it is a OOS Token Booth. The only place your getting an apartment is in Coney Island! What a great place to live 4 main trains run to Stillwell Ave (B/D/F/N), be in the city in an hour, one seat/train ride. And you can always go to Nathan's and ride the roller coaster till you throw up your dogs! Sounds so fun I might move there with ya!
Mike
"Mr Mass Transit" Bensonhurst is the place but only if your Italian!
Coney Island huh. well id ont think ugonna get anything there unless u apply for subsidized housing (Projects) its 30% of ur annual income for rent and the average wait is 3 yrs. I on the other hand live in kensington on Ocean Parkway in a one bedroom in a recently remodeled building and it has large rooms and even a smaller half bedroom. Great shopping F train a block away and D/Q train a 10 minute walk, and 2 bus routes. Pay $780 a month. clean building good neighbors
Say, Mike "Mr.Mass Transit,", wasn't SPIKE from Bensonhurst? :> Thomas
For $900, you could get a large two-bedroom apartment in Chicago in a nice neighborhood. (Or you could live like a god in a crappy neighborhood.) Hell, nice one-bedroom apartments in my own building in Edgewater are only $750 a month. And we're talking corner units on upper floors, with a view of the lake and a 24-hour doorman downstairs, four bus routes outside the door, and the Red Line "L" only two blocks away. I may even upgrade to a one-bedroom myself in a few months after I get some debts paid off.
There is more to life than a 212 area code on your phone number... New York is a great city, but no city is worth paying $2000 a month for some tiny, rat-infested hovel.
-- David
Chicago, IL
Sounds as if you're describing Edgewater Beach Plaza, if you say you board the el at Berwyn.
Well RTS, an average one bedroom apartment in a walk-up building will run you around $1800 to $2000 a month. Outrageous.
If you're looking to spend between $900 to $1000 a month on a one bedroom apartment, decent areas near subways include:
Bronx--Riverdale, Pelham Pkwy in Williamsbridge and Pelham Bay Park.
Brooklyn--Bensonhurst, Bay Ridge, Brighton Beach, Midwood
Queens--Kew Gardens, Rego Park, Astoria, Forest Hills ($1100 a month avg in FH. I should know as I apt. hunted a few mos. ago)
Manhattan--Nowhere decent.
Anything less than $900 in a decent area is not realistic unless you're willing to look for studio apartments. Even with that reduction you're looking at $1400+ in Manhattan.
Gee and I complained that my rent just went over $600 for three rooms but that is rent stableized. GR&D
Good Lord, that's alot of money! Since I plan to major in finance, and I hope to land a nice 55,000 dollar a year (it's possible) job, what can I get?
Well lets see, $55,000 minus 1/3rd for taxes leaves $36,850. An apartment costing $1500 a month would eat up half of your take home pay.
It all depends if you are steadfast in residing by yourself (girlfriend included), or you're willing to live with a roommate(s) to share the costs. By living with a roommate(s), you can live in the middle of Manhattan in the trendiest areas, but your privacy goes to pot and you risk having to live with the "roommate from hell".
I strongly suggest Queens. The rents are reasonable and there are some very nice neighborhoods here (I live in Queens as well). Forest Hills is a very trendy area with rents that aren't too bad ($1100 a month for a 1 bedroom apt), many stores and excellent movie theaters and excellent public transportation with the E,F express trains and the G,R local trains serving the area. FH over the past few years has turned into a mini-Manhattan. And Kew Gardens which is right next to FH is very nice as well. And a car in FH/KG is not necessary.
When you go to NYU, you'll have plenty of time to "case the joint". Most people that go to NYU usually want to stay in Greenwich Village where the school is located, only problem is that it's extremely expensive there with one bedroom apartments averaging about $2200 a month.
Click on the link below to connect you with the NY Times real estate section to give you a faint idea as to what you'll be up against.
NY Times apartment listings
you can live in the middle of Manhattan in the trendiest areas, but your privacy goes to pot and you risk having to live with the "roommate from hell".
Or that roommate could be your wife/live-in girlfriend, and you have a nice DINK family.
DINK=Double Income, No Kids, The American Dream.
Well I'm currently a DINK. At least for the next two years anyway.
Or that roommate could be your wife/live-in girlfriend, and you have a nice DINK family.
DINK=Double Income, No Kids, The American Dream.
In your case, Pork, wouldn't it be DINP (Double Income, No Piglets)?
Hey stud, I hates ta bust ya bubble, but many TOs in NYCTA make more than that, and their job did not even require 4+ years of College pulling all nighters and whatnot. BTW- $55K/yr.MIGHT just barely buy you modest shelter and groceries-hope you plans to move to a nudist colony in NYC!!! :>Peace and Free Love For All,Thomas the Bubble Busta
I just threw out 55,000 because I didn't want to sound ridiculous. I did anyway. Let's say 85,000 dollars. I know that's possible for a 23 yr old male.
At least 6 figures would be more like it for finance and if you're from a top school.
At least 6 figures would be more like it for finance and if you're from a top school.
The school means nothing once you have a few years of experience.
Investigate:
College Point
????
College Point may be a decent enough 'hood, but it's pretty remote from transit.
Decent bus service, though. OK, not at the top of the list.
I don't think Sunnyside and Greenpoint are that great in the safety and accesibility department.
Anywhere in the Queens Blvd corridor east of Woodside is good. In Queens I'd have to say Elmhurst and Rego Park have great subway/bus access, especially with the 63rd street line coming on.
Also there's plenty of shopping close by, as well as nice Chinese business district in Elmhurst.
Bayside and College point are further away from the subway, and you have to go through Flushing, which is not the best of neighborhoods.
Manhattan is probably expensive in most parts. I think Elmhurst and Rego Park are nice areas, well they are the only part of Queens I like. Bayside is good too, but I think it's a bit pricey.
Flushing is actually not bad. Of course "bad" is in the eye of the beholder. It's a combination of neighborhood realities and your own social skills.
Well, my Mandarin isn't that good, and I don't know any Cantonese, but I can get by in Turkish and Kweyol, and I speak Spanish.
That's pretty good! I'm tri-lingual myself. My parents speak and write 6 languages between them.
My grandfather spoke 6 languages fluently and knew smatterings of several others.
Let me guess:
Lithuanian, Polish, Russian, German, English, Yiddish.
Was I close?
Arti
I can get by in Turkish and Kweyol, and I speak Spanish.
Kweyol?
What they speak in Haiti.
Bayside and College point are further away from the subway, and you have to go through Flushing, which is not the best of neighborhoods.
Heh heh, I just knew you'd have to mention Sodom and Gomorrah, aka Flushing.
Get a life!
I just made a contradiction. Actually Bayside is nice too, you have good express bus service to NYC, as well as the LIRR so you don't have to bother with Flushing. Sorry.
But Bayside has nowhere near the great Chinese and Indian food you can get in Flushing.
phillyguy, you might want to try Brooklyn's next "trendy" neighborhood, Prospect Heights, before it gets "too pricey". Prospect Heights is adjacent to the "cultural hub" of Brooklyn -- Grand Army Plaza. Within walking distance is the Brooklyn Museum of Art, Botanic Gardens, and the Brooklyn Public Library (main branch with LOTS of old books on Brooklyn rapid transit).
Rail transportation in the neighborhood is provided by the Franklin Avenue Shuttle (which connects both the A/C with the Brighton Line D/Q trains), and the IRT 2/3/4 and 5 trains. Actually, it's a very transit-friendly neighborhood, that is also served by a number of bus lines as well.
Good luck in apartment hunting!
BMTman
I made that point in a previous post. It seems there are areas that charge a lot less rent that are in nice neighborhoods and very close to transportation facilities. Why is such a demand to live in Manhattan when prices for a decent apartment are going through the roof. It would seem to be a little commute by subway would be worth the time and effort for the amount of money one could save on renting an apartment. I know if I moved to New York I would certainly live in one of the outer boroughs. Besides, it would give me a good reason to ride the rails. That's part of the fun of living in New York anyway.
Ok Fred, there are plenty of Vacent Apts around 3rd Ave between 138-161st Sts in the Bronx.
Right Bob, just my type of place. You can also tell me where I can get a gun real cheap, too, I suppose. When was the last time you were in the South Bronx? What a hellhole! How can people live in such an environment. Oh Oh, here come the thought police getting on my case about me bagging about the Bronx, even though it's the South Bronx and I'm on target about it. See pal, if all hell breaks loose now, it's your fault because you brought it up first.
Well people do manage even though it's really rough there.
Besides there aren't too many light complexioned individuals residing in that particular area.
Whether they are light or dark, it makes no difference. The place is rat infested and that is no way to live. I'm amazed the city has not undertaken a real rat abatement program. You can live in housing that is not toop notch, but there is no rhyme or reason to have to put up with vermin. Yuk!!!!!!
The last time I was in the South Bronx was Nov 2, 2000, drove thru to Yankee Stadium to pick up World Series Stuff, you ought to know, you have a few items. That was the day I finally visited all 5 boros in 1 hour., came across the 1st Ave Bridge from Harlem, or was it the 3rd Ave Bridge.
Willis Avenue Bridge goes northbound, Third Avenue Bridge goes southbound.
So you used the Willis Avenue Bridge.
The answer man answerith. Pork, you a wealth of information. I hope you don't have a "know it all personallity."
Yes sir, and you can be assured that World Series shirt is getting plenty of action in our salubrious climate. It is a beautiful shirt and I love it. You stand tall with me even though you're a Yankee fan. But in all seriousness, how can anyone cope with living in such an environment. I don't think I could.
Aren't we lucky we don't have to!
You can cross over, see how the other side of the track lives, then come back to your posh place and live to talk about it.
I sure find myself lucky and appreciate what I have.
Ahhhhhh nothing like the greater NYC area!!!
Ahhhhhhhhhhhh, nothing like sunny Southern California either.
true, like South Central. Yesssssir!!!
Ok, we have South Central. Any others? Well, you have Bed-Sty, the South Bronx, Harlem, East Harlem, East NY, Williamsburg, etc. Shall I go on. Come on, why didn't you mention Coronado, Laguna Beach, Malibu, Santa Barbara, Venice, Santa Monica, Dana Point, and my beautiful Arcadia? Anyway, you have a great day.
Why not you live in LA, birth place of the drive by shooting
South Bronx? What a hellhole!
HAHA!
Like anything else in life, it's all in perspective!
If you think it's a hellhole in today's standars, You didn't see it 20 years ago. Today's Bronx is the Donald Trump, Disneyfied Bronx. Thank God for community organizations like "SEBCO and BANANA KELLY" who put their blood sweat and tears in local Bronx communities.If you want to see what you missed back then and realise how "beautifull" eye of the beholder" the Bronx is today, get a movie called Wild Styles. Vintage subway shots with an urban landscape of unimaginable destruction and blight. That described "HELLHOLE"!! Not what we are seeing today.
Like Harlem, the South Bronx is gentrifying itself. Great spots for cheap rents, subway ride to midtown. Don't wait too long Mickey Mouse is taking over, then it's going to cost a shit load to rent.
Where exactly in the South Bronx is this? I plan on visiting the Bronx when I get into New York on March 30, and try one of those Italian restaurants they say they have around Morris Avenue or thereabouts. I would love to see the "new and improved" SB. What I saw last summer on my short visit there was not what I would call very improved. And where the hell are those good Italian restaurants I heard of located anyway?
The good Italian restaurants are on Arthur Av in the Belmont section.
Thank you zman 179, but your job is only half finished. Tell how to get there and I'll write it down and know where the hell I'm going when I get into town.
Well again if you compare to last summer and this was your first visit, you have no barometer of how bad the Bronx was and how far it has come.
Before you come down, rent the movie Fort Apache the Bronx with Paul Newman.
Wild Styles is another movie set on the Bronx landscape from 17 years ago. Bonefire of the Vanity has some shots of what the Bronx looked like when it was down and out. Compared to these settings, today's gentrified Bronx sure is looking up.
Keep in perspective we are talking about the South Bronx and not the Upper West side here. It has a long way to go, it does look pretty rough but as aforementioned it was much worst. Check those movies out and let me know what you think.
Later Marty.
BTW enjoy you visit when you come out East.
Thanks Marty. But I can tell you I'm going to explore the South Bronx for myself and try to see the improvement. I was there in 1974 and 1991 and 1999, and, so help me, I saw nothing different any of those times. It looked like a hovel each time.
Gee and I wonder WHY they're so many vacant apartments there???
Try Jersey City, NJ, specifically the area right around Grove Street Station. 24 hour train service to 33rd St. & World Trade Center. The neighborhood isn't "trendy" (like, for instance, Hoboken) so it should be affordable- $900 for a nice apt. isn't out of the question.
I think it all depends on where you end up working, e.g. I know a woman who works for the TA at 130 Livingston Plaza (downtown Brooklyn). She commutes from Forrest Hills & it take 1 1/2 hours, yuck. I work in Harlem for 11 years & took LIRR & 1/9, it took a little over an hour ... the good part was the 45 minutes on the LIRR where I got a lot of reading done ... but it was still a long day.
I also lived in Sunnyside at 40th Street on the #7 and went to 90 Church Street (across from City Hall). Trains were packed, but the commute was less then 45 minutes. Going to Harlem was better then City Hall because I was reverse commuting. I actually could do some railfaning because all my time wasn't spent trying to find a place to stand. If you can find a place convient to PATH, that's a nice trip in from NJ.
Also think of a Express Bus ride in from City border (Queens/Nassau). A nice trip and with the $120 Unlimited MC it brings the cost down.
Well, just a few ideas ....
Mr t__:^)
Once again the Oaks Model RR club has posted railfan video clips on their website. This update inclouded 4 DIVIX format movies of SEPTA PCC cars. You can find them here: http://www.trainweb.org/oaksmodelrr/Septa_movies.html
FYI a Divix movie has a .avi extention and used Mp4 compression and works with Windows Media player. However you have to download the codecs for it somewhere on the web.
Actually, its DivX, and its MPEG4 not MP4. MP3 is actually MPEG 1 Layer 3 audio.
DivX is not a pronouncable word and stop nitpicking.
Im not nitpicking. Its what its called. There is no such thing as DIVIX. Im sure if someone incorrectly said that they saw a R-68 running on the 3 line, someone would point out that R-68 do not run on IRT lines. Its Pronounced "div-ix", but it is spelt DivX (The older version was DivX ;-), but the newer version is OpenDivX).
And then three years ago there was Circuit City's DivX.
Thank god that failed.
-Hank
Im sure if someone incorrectly said that they saw a R-68 running on the 3 line, someone would point out that R-68 do not run on IRT lines.
Only in the movies :)
--Mark
I just got another roll of film back. This one is dated from the day before Thanksgiving to Jan 6th. I have posted the better photos online for you all to see. After all, even a blind man can hit fish in a barrel if he shoots enough. FYI I have posted a picture of my CAR!
These first 2 photos are from Jan 6th and are of the PRR position light signals at CP-WOODBURY set in a wonderful snowscape. One signal has been recently painted, the other could use a fresh coat.
http://129.133.1.64/~mbrotzman/Woodbury-SnowPL-1.jpg
http://129.133.1.64/~mbrotzman/Woodbury-SnowPL-2.jpg
The next shot was taken on the day before Thanksgiving when I was out documenting the PRR PL signals guarding the former Delanco Movable Bridge which is being replaced for a useless Light Rail line (Dam you "progress"!) The home signals were gone but the distants Y110 and Y131 were not so I drove out there and managed to work in a shot of my wonderful 1969 Ford Mustang Convertable w/ a 302 V-8
http://129.133.1.64/~mbrotzman/sm-Y131+mustang.jpg
These next two photos were taken on my Amtrak trip home on Decembre 20 at the New Haven station. The first one was the best photo in the lot and its of a snow covered F40, sitting next to a Phaze I AEM-7 at the new engine terminal with a CDoT GP-40 peeking out behind the AEM. The other pic is just your typical Metro North MU train.
http://129.133.1.64/~mbrotzman/NH50.jpg
http://129.133.1.64/~mbrotzman/NH52.jpg
Finally I have a pic taken during my thrilling rear vestabule ride on an Amtrak Keystone train. Its a pic of the former NASSAU interlocking w/ a signal bridge and part of the P Jct. platform.
http://129.133.1.64/~mbrotzman/NASSAU-2.jpg
a shot of my wonderful 1969 Ford Mustang Convertable w/ a 302 V-8
Makes me miss mine that much more (sniff!) - mine was a very bright medium green, white top and interior, regular hubcaps on green wheels, 302, automatic - I drove it through a cement retaining wall and into a power pole trying (successfully) to avoid an elderly pedestrian back in February 1975.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Mike, Saved a copy of the M-N Cosmopolitian for my own use, thanks for sharing.
Mr t__:^)
it had been a tense day, this first day that the #6 line had all service provided by the new r142a's...
mta officials were all over the place, breathing down everyone's neck...
by 9pm, things had quieted down in the grand central tower... caz dolowicz and frank correll finally got a chance to relax and talk about the good old days, when their biggest problem was thwarting train hijackers...
one of the tower operators noted that pelham 1954 had been sitting in the 28th street station for a couple of minutes...
caz got on the radio and yelled:
"PELHAM 1954... WHY ARE YOU SITTING IN 28TH STREET???"
a moment later, a voice came over the radio
"grand central... this is pelham 1954... my conductor is having trouble closing up... some of the doors won't close...he's checking to see which cars are affected"
when frank heard the report, he exploded... he said to caz:
" i wish they never bought those ******* cars... or if they had to buy them, they should have put them over on the west side, so that we wouldn't have to suffer with them. let those west side limousine liberals ride in them"
as he spoke, pelham 2001 came into grand central...
caz said to frank:
"i'm going to send pelham 2001 down the express track... there's no telling how long things will be ****** up at 28th street..."
caz got back on the radio as said:
"PELHAM 2001... THIS IS GRAND CENTRAL TOWER... BECAUSE OF A STALLED TRAIN AT 28TH STREET, WE'RE GOING TO RUN YOU DOWN THE EXPRESS TRACK... PLEASE MAKE AN ANNOUCEMENT TO THE CUSTOMERS ON YOUR TRAIN, THAT YOU WILL BE RUNNING EXPRESS TO 14TH STREET... ACKNOWLEDGE 2001"
dave arnold was the motorman on pelham 2001... he wasn't happy to hear of the change... he would have to screw around with the computer to get the annoucements right...
dave got on the radio and said:
"roger grand central... it'll just take me about 10 minutes to reprogram the computer so that the proper automatic announcements are made throughtout the train... do you copy??"
frank blew up when he heard that it would take 10 minutes to reprogram the computer... he grabbed the mike from caz and screamed:
"LISTEN PELHAM 2001... WE DON'T HAVE 10 MINUTES TO SCREW AROUND, WHILE YOU ADJUST THE COMPUTER... JUST SHUT THE COMPUTER DOWN, AND LET ME KNOW WHEN YOUR WHEELS ARE ROLLING..."
dave acknowledged grand central and was just about to shut the computer, when a voice came out of the console
dave was shocked at what he had heard... there had been all kinds of the problems with the 142a's, but nobody ever reported that the computer started talking to them... dave was about to report this to grand central tower, but realized that they would send him down for a psychiatric consult if he told them what happened...
instead dave said:
"i'm sorry hal, but if i don't shut you down, i won't be able to sit down for a month after they get through with me..."
just as he was about to switch off the computer, he heard:
time prohibits me from going on for another 2 hours...
clips from 2001 were obtained from the 2001 internet resource archive, which is loaded with great stuff... it's at
2001
LOL! HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA! YOU ARE THE KING OF CLEVER HEYPAUL!
Oy. Do you think shock therapy would help?
So, the next time I walk into the 23rd St. station at Park Ave. and I see an R-142 in the station with its PA on and a voice going "Daisy, Daisy give me your answer true..." as all the lights shut down, I'll know to expect a long delay and walk over to the Broadway line instead.
You guys have entirely too much time on you hands on the week-ends.
LOL Mr t__:^)
Great story! I liked the added sounds! Great job! :-)
While I almost never find myself on the G, I was in Greenpoint today and so thought I'd take the G to Court Square and switch to the F, forgetting this was a 63rd Street Tunnel Weekend. We had to get transfers (which closely resembled bus transfers of old) take the shuttle bus and then get on the R at Queens Plaza or F at 21st Street. To my surprise everything ran smoothly, with the shuttle bus pulling up just as I emerged on 23rd Street. But my question...
Why bother with transfer or a shuttle bus at all? Why not simply run the G to Queens Plaza, or any subsequent station where it could be turned around?
www.forgotten-ny.com
The whole reroute is necessary to replace the x crossover between the northbound express and local tracks just north of Queens Plaza. No incoming northbound train could use Queens Plaza if those 2 tracks are not in service.
I thought about this too. The R was running through at QP, so could the G right?
The trains cannot turn at the Plaza because the switches are out. You say: Why not 71st?
Well, 71/Continental tower is getting enlarged. During the weekends, with the R going to Parsons/Archer, this is a golden opportunity for them to do work because the tower need not be functional (no trains have to turn). Didn't you wonder why this weekend Fs were switching to/from express at Union Turnpike in both directions?
The G would have to turn at 179st or Parsons/Archer. That would require more crews (plus the G would need conductors).
I took the #2 to Flatbush Avenue yesterday to capture the parrots at Brooklyn College on film for...
www.forgotten-ny.com
Why is President Street configured like an express station, with a center platform?
Kevin, those parrots are thriving out in Canarsie as well! (I believe it's the same species -- small green parrots that chirp constantly).
Apparently, they are able to survive the harsh climate changes of NYC by building their nests under and literally around ConEd power-pole transformers. These transformers create enough heat to allow the once former tropical birds to live through the cold winter months.
BTW, anyone know the story how they got to be in Brooklyn????
BMTman
These transformers create enough heat to allow the once former tropical birds to live through the cold winter months.
C'mon, Doug. The electromagnetic radiation from the transformers has mutated the former tropical birds into little green pigeons.
Thanks, chuchubob. No wonder they've conformed so easily to "city living"....;-)
BMTman
I believe the small green parrots we're referring to here are Quaker Parakeets. They are the only parrot species who build nests. Quakers are small parrots similar to Cockatiels but have heavier bodies. They're generally green with a pale gray on the forehead, cheeks, throat and extending down to the chest. Its native territory is extreme south eastern Brazil through Uruguay to north eastern Argentina. Most of the Quaker parrots you find around here in the "wild" are escaped pets. The find eachother somehow and form social groups.
If anyone has pictures of these parrots in the wild, so to speak from this area, I would like to see some :)
I study birds especially parrots as a side job :)
Shawn.
Shawn, contact me offline. I'll have to take you on a tour here in Canarsie... there are a few nests that aren't too hard to find.
There are a number of "urban myths" about these parrots coming to Brooklyn. The most common one is that they were being transported by jet to the US (I would suppose to a pet store) when the cage holding them broke open and they escaped. Another variation has a similar thing happening on a tracker trailer after an accident. Yet another scenerio has them making their way north from the tropics on their own because of our rather tame recent winters (not this one of course!).
A side effect of all this is that some local scientists are concerned that any native birds to our region could get chased out of the area from competition for food by these "newcomers". These parrots have infact become "native" to our region as they've been thriving here for close to two decades. Now that their population has grown significantly, they're being noticed.
I'm sure we'll hear more about this in the near future.
BMTman
Being a Quaker myself, I can attest that I have never seen a parrot attend with the Brooklyn Friends Meeting on Boerum & Schermerhorn or the 15th St meetinghouse on Rutherford Place.
They simply would not be able to stay quiet during meeting, and they would have to be eldered by some older, wiser Quakers.
PPS
Most likely to allow those who took the wrong train an easy way to cross over to the opposite side to get back to Franklin Ave. for trains to Utica and New Lots. No other Nostrand Ave. station has a free crossover between both directions.
I hardly think that station was designed with that intent in mind.
Maybe it has something to do with the weirdness with the tracks going back toward Franklin, how both manhattan-bound and Flatbush-bound trains share one track to merge into the main line?
PPS
The Manhattan- and Flatbush-bound trains don't share a track; the weird track-sharing around that area relates to the fact that all trains from to or from Flatbush need to pass over the local track just south of Franklin Ave., even if going express between Atlantic and Franklin.
subfan
Chris, there is a crossover at the station after President Street, which is Sterling Street. After Sterling, there are no crossovers until Flatbush Avenue.
Isn't there a crossover S. of Church Ave. Station?
Carl M.
Yup. Hence the timers entering Church on the southbound.
In terms of there being a switch on the roadbed, yes, as Alex stated.
In terms of crossing over to the northbound platform, no. After Sterling Street, all southbound platforms have exits only (except for those with MetroCard only entrances).
They all have entrances on the southbound side - during the AM rush, there are always people waiting for trains there. They ride to Flatbush and stay on the train, thereby guaranteeing themselves a seat for the ride into Manhattan.
I didn't know that. There goes that idea. Perhaps the location dictated an island platform, buildings in the way, yadda yadda yadda ...
Philadelphia Mayor Street was once IRT President?
Isn't he a bit too young for that? Isn't everybody a bit too young for that?
"Philadelphia Mayor Street was once IRT President?
Isn't he a bit too young for that? Isn't everybody a bit too young for that? "
What's worse is that apparently the poor man is configured like an express station. This Street fellow certainly has a number of problems to deal with.
B"H
why not?
Originall the Nostrand Ave. line wasn't connected to Eastern Parkway line ? Don't actually know the history, just the way an old map seem to look.
Mr t__:^)
If it wasn't connected to the Eastern Parkway line, where did it go?
[Originall the Nostrand Ave. line wasn't connected to Eastern Parkway line ? Don't actually know the history, just the way an old map seem to look.]
Thurston, seems you were looking at the map upside down -- that could explain how the Nostrand Ave. Line doesn't look connected to Eastern Parkway...;-)
BMTman
This weekend I went home via Amtrak to go Sking at Camelback Mt. in Tannersville PA. On the drive back to Middeltown CT I made a railfan stop at Port Morris NJ.
On Friday I had reservations on Amtrak Train #99, 12:11 out of New Haven, arriving 30th St. 3:27. I got to New Haven around 11:15 and bought a meatball sub at the Subway then headded out on to the S/B platform. As I finished my Sub I heard an odd diesel air horn blast and the sound of an old EMD 567 engine trying to rev up*. I looked through the windows of a MNRR commuter train and saw a New Haven 'NH' on a rounded nose. SCORE!! FL-9! I grabbed my stuff and ran to the far N/B platform (like track 8). I got up the stairs and saw 2 ConnDoT Fl-9's painted in New Haven colours pulling what looked like MNRR office cars. Well I noticed a crew person heading to the head end and ppl boarding the card and so I grabbed my camera and ran up the paltform. As I got there it revved up and began to pull away. I was taking pics as fast as my camera would take them. I got about 10-12 good ones.
My train arrived on time. There was an odd car on the end. It looked like a regular Amfleet, it had a pantograph, it had windows on the end blukhead and a windowed rear door. I was not sure if it had a control cab. It was named "Corridor Cruiser" or something like that. I took a pic, but can anyone ID it?
There was a TSR at catenary pole 785 on 25mph and the mispatcher was having to give every train a clearance form over the radio. I heard the dispatch giving the local before us the same form. I couldn;t hear that engineer, but I did hear the dispatcher say "Yes, you have to repeat back the whole thing." Who did that engineer think he was, a motorman?
Because track 3 was out of service b/t Bridgeport and Norwalk (MNRR needs a new crossover there) we were stuck behind the local and lost a few minutes. But due to schedual padding we were able to depart Penn on time. I also saw some LIRR trains w/ the blue side panneling.
The secaucas connection is comming along and I figured out what that new station between HUNTER and LANE on the NEC is for. Its the connection to the Newark Airport Mono-rail. That station is also coming along. My train arrived on time at 30th St. During the enitre trip they said the train was sold out, but nobody ever sat next to me or several other people in my car (lead car).
After my ski trip I wanted to stop by Port Morris NJ. I had been there about 5 years back and the former Jct. was a lazy MofW yard. I wanted a pic of the Port Morris tower. Well we get there and we find that NJT has like built a shop/yard complex there. There is an access road w/ like Employees Only signs, but my dad cited that it was 8 AM on a Sunday and nobody would care. We drove up and found a 6-7 track yard filled w/ diesel Push Pull sets. There was a shop complex, but the tower was away from that at the east end. We pull on to a dirt road that runs next to the yard where they store all the ties and run to where I can get out to run over to the tower (which ironically is off NJT property). I unloaded my camera at the tower and the yard and we then left. My dad was right, if anybdy had been there they didn't care.
There is nothing like the sound of the EMD 567 diesel, is there?
I wish there were more of them still around!
It reminds me of a lawnmower. I forgot to continue the * I put after the sentence.
* Inquire about my great immitation of an EMD 567 engine.
Oh-Oh, I take it that you don't have the same fond feelng for the 567 that I do!
Thirty years ago we had nothing but F's, GP-7's and GP-9's from Western Maryland around here, and the sound was music to my ears.
Well I haven't been around many running Geeps, but I think that the F's have a special sound due to the carbody.
GP7's are the sound of heaven alcojunk is fashionable to foamers and sounds like it is ready to fall apart The marketplace spoke over 30 years ago NO MORE ALCOS. EMD RULES POUR TOUJOURS!
You can get a bus (#12 or #24) on Broad Street in Newark that will drop you off a short block from WAVE, where the new station is located. The street dead ends at the tracks without a fence or other barrier. If you were that stupid, you could actually walk right out onto the tracks. A great spot for track-side fotos from a public street.
I've heard you can get off the J at Norwood and walk south.
I've also heard that you can get off the A at Euclid and walk east.
That sounds like two different locations to me.
From previous posts I had formed the impression that it was located somewhere on Milford St, south of Atlantic Ave.
Just where the devil is it located?
WHAT exactly is this "transit tech"? And does anyone having attended it give one preference with or make one more competitive to being hired on at NYCT? Do tell! Peace, Thomas:>
I think it is a transit oriented technical high school, but I'm not sure. I haven't lived in the city for years, and I am having problems finding out exactly where it is located.
Transit Tech, otherwise known as East New York High School of Transit Technmology, specializes in how trains and buses operate, computer design, computer programming, and computer repair. I guess it's the only school in NYC affiliated with the MTA....
Are there any schools that specialize in transportation?
I heard Jane Addams does....
http://home.con2.com/transit is transit tech's webpage.
Thanks guys, for the info! Thomas:>
umm the way I got there was by taking the A up to Euclid Ave. so you DO have to walk east 2 blocks off of Euclid ave then walk up this hill, full of traffic. ( I wonder how the students deal with so much traffic....) You'll see the words EAST NEW YORK HIGH SCHOOL OF TRANSIT TECHNOLOGY on top of this big building to the right of this hill.
If you walked two blocks east of Euclid, you should have been at Crescent St and Pitkin Ave.
I'm more confused now than before. Could you have possibly walked west toward Chestnut or Crystal?
let's see.....Wells st. is where Transit Tech resides...
walk up towards crystal street, hang a right. check out mapquest...
1 wells st
brooklyn, NY 11208
Thank You! I know exactly where it is now. I can't believe that I came within three blocks of the school, and didn't know it was there. Of course, that was fifty years ago and maybe the school or Wells St were not there back then.
Mapquest is a neat site. I did not know about it and had never used it before, but will be using it in the future!
Thanks!
I don't think Joe Korman posts here regularly, so you might want to follow this link for a rundown of the post Manhattan switcheroo and 63rd car assignments. Joe said on the news group nyc.transit:
"I came across a proposal dated 8/2000 for the summer 2001 service
changes. I converted it to HTML and posted it[...]"
Looks like the G and the N get the biggest changes, with the R-42s making their triumphant (?) return to the Sea Beach line while the V gets the R-46s, the G runs the R-68s out of CI and the W takes over the B's Southern Division fleet.
One Time In The Summer Of 2000. I Went On A R-42 N Line. So That Means That I Will See R-42 On The N Line Again. The R-68's that was going to run the G Line Might Be Sent To Jamaica train yard
In Kew Gardens. That's Near By My House.
Not going to happen. The V will base its fleet out of Jamacia so the G will move to CI.
Some of the R68 cars to be used on the G could be stored at Jamaica Yard and at Continental Av. It all depends on how the work programs are set up. If the R68's are stored at JYD, they won't be touched for maintenance purposes unless it's a quickie like changing a window, etc.
I like the R42s. It will be nice to see them in Northern Queens
:-) Andrew
Where are they coming from? The R143 is far away from being delivered in numbers, and certainly not in time for the V line innauguration in August.
One train of R42s from the M, one from the J...and I am taking a shot at thinking a lot of spares from ENY will be given over to Coney Island.
Why don't they take the slant 40's from the ?
Cause Wayne won't let them go. lol
Why? Confinement to the eastern division keeps these speed demons from showing their stuff ....
Well you only have 40 or so Slants out of ENY anyway. The rest are out of Coney.
This list isn't written in stone you know. The list says that the entire R40M fleet will work the J/M. These cars will continue to see service on the L and M since all those lines come under the auspices of East New York Yard.
Interesting things on the list:
The Grand St Shuttle will use R46's.
The Franklin Shuttle will actually use 6 R68's. A two car spare train is always kept south of Prospect Park but only 4 of them will be in use at one time.
The Q line gets some R68's back.
The W line will be exclusively R68A's. Hmmmmmmmm, guess which line I won't be working on anytime soon?
1) Looks like 60 cars are removed from the Eastern Division (R42's).
2) I think the R68 on the G is a waste of a good car. They should run
the R40S over there.
3) Is there a typo on the Rockaway Park shuttle ? I think it means to
say 12 R44, not R46.
4) Why only 72% of the R40M is deployed ?
5) I still think they should put skirts on about 150 Redbirds and put
them on the J/Z.
1)R68 on G is not a waste of a good car. They would rather run 4 car 75' trains than 6 car 60' trains, and the r-46's are going to be on the V, so the r-68's is a good idea.
2)yes, rkwy. pk. is a typo.
3)Only 72% of r-40m is deployed: this isn't a big deal, maybe the cars aren't needed.
4)If they ever put IRT cars on the B div. i'll go crazy. Why put LOUD SQUEALING cars on an elevated line with sharp turns!?!?
3)Only 72% of r-40m is deployed: this isn't a big deal, maybe the cars aren't needed.
I think they have a hell of an equipment shortage. The R143 aren't to replace anything.
4)If they ever put IRT cars on the B div. i'll go crazy. Why put LOUD SQUEALING cars on an elevated line with
sharp turns!?!?
Are R40/R42 any quieter ? They are low priority lines.
If they are low priority lines, then they won't need the redbirds.
WHY would anyone put the redbirds on another division. And at that, they'd require an overhaul! Seems wasteful, especially since the car shortage isn't 'critical' yet, and the redbirds would be retired in 2 years at the longest
Th point is low priority lines should get low priority equipment, cascading better equipment to where there are customers in crush loads. I am not convinced that they can't cherry-pick 150 Redbirds out of 1400 that can run another 2-3 years without an overhaul.
Actually, the squeal would probably be less severe for an IRT car turning on a BMT Eastern Division el than on an IRT one -- say, the Flushing line bewtween Hunters Point and QP. The IRT cars would handle the turning radius better, because the BMT els were built to handle 67-foot cars, while the IRT cars are 25 percent shorter. Running a BMT car on the No. 7 between QP and Hunters Point the train would not only squeal like a stalked co-ed in a Friday the 13th movie, odds are it would try and transfer itself vertically to the G line at Court House Square.
That said, the MTA apparently thinks running eight car Redbirds as rush hour-only put-ins on the BMT/IND until the R-143s arrive is not good for safety reasons -- which probably means they think the general population is either dumber, more likely to get hurt and more litigious than 42 years ago, when the Low Vs ran with skirts on the Culver shuttle. So'll they'll stick with overcrowded trains for a year or two.
"Running a BMT car on the No. 7 between QP and Hunters Point the train would not only squeal like a stalked co-ed in a Friday the 13th movie, odds are it would try and transfer itself vertically to the G line at Court House Square."
LOL! That's the kind of humor only we subfans can appreciate!
I can think of one person who just might appreciate a train of squealing Redbirds on the Eastern Division.:-)
Let's all sing like the (Red)birdies sing,
Squeak, squeak-squeak, squeak-sqee-eeak....
What exactly is the nature of these "skirts"?
Skirts are extenders on the outside of the IRT cars that allow them to operate on the BMT and IND lines. In the late 1950s, a number of extra IRT Low Vs were shifted over to run on the BMT Culver and Franklin shuttles to deal with a car shortage at the time.
Here's one of the photos from Dave's IRT Low V page that shows the skirts, which are flat at the doors and slanted under the windows.
IRT Low V with skirt adapter for BMT
(1) All yards have to utilize their cars better and have fewer spares. This is why ENY will give up 60 cars to CI. Notice no more R68's on the N! The passengers may not be happy because they'll lose their "new" trains, but I can live with R32's & R42's there. Maybe I'll work the N again? (2) The G riders are pissed off enough that the line is being shortened. Now you want to add fuel to the fire by giving them old 60' cars? As it is, they'll think they are getting screwed twice since the R68's look older than the R46's because of all the car body scratches! (4) You say only 72% of the R40M' are deployed. Work out the math on the others. You may find a similar percentage. There is a spare factor for all classes due to bad ordered cars, inspections, SMS overhauls, new floors installed (Jamaica R32's currently), cars held by orders of any number of TA departments, etc. and (5) In this era of awareness of accidents and lawsuits, I have discussed earlier on SUBTALK why IRT cars will never be used on the B division: putting skirts is an open invitation to school kids and others who think they are immortal to ride side saddle on the cars as they leave a station. And don't tell me if they get hurt it is their fault. Even if that happens or not, the conductor has to pull the cord and gets taken out of service if the idiot gets injured.
I aggree that rather than the TA being "right", and not liable when said teenagers break their necks on the skirts, we'd rather not have the accidents in the first place. Shame though. We really could use those cars.
:-) Andrew
Don't put IRT cars on the B division. The TA shouldn't have retired the R-30's without a replacement to begin with! And, it isn't at the critical point yet, where numerous trains don't run because they don't have enough cars.
Right, retiring the GOH R30's was a mistake. They are not scheduling enough trains as it is, even if they are making the current schedules reality, and would be able to do things like send the V to Church Avenue, V or R to 179th.
For the time being, the V will simply have to operate between 71st and 2av. But, you can't overhaul the redbirds just to scrap them in 2 years.
who think they are immortal to ride side saddle on the cars as they leave a station.
What if the side saddles were retractable; that is, they opened up when the doors opened, and closed (or folded up) when the doors closed? There could be a seperate indication for the status of the door saddle, to tell the T/O that a saddle is still open.
--Mark
They could probably do that, but not at a cost that would be rational if the Redbirds were only going to spend between 18 and 24 months on the B Division.
That would also be bad because the TA doesn't want moving platforms. Why would they wantmoving skirts?
"That would also be bad because the TA doesn't want moving platforms. Why would they wantmoving skirts? "
The T.A. doesn't want me?
:-)
I did do work out the math, which is how I got 72% for the R40M. All others Available/Total are between 83% and 92.
As for the skirts, if they were sloped at a 45-degree angle, they would be hard to hitch a ride on.
>>>2) I think the R68 on the G is a waste of a good car. They should run the R40S over there.<<<
Can't run OPTO with an R40S
Peace,
ANDEE
In other words, the R40S isn't a good car???
Wayne didja hear this??!?
Yep, he doesn't like the shovelnoses, does he. We knows better, they're just fine where they are; the "L", the "Q" and I think they should take them off the "N" and put them on the "B".
wayne
Been waiting for slants since 1995-96 on the West End :(
However, once in a while ENY does send a 480' slant doing yeoman work for the "M" :)
I wouldn't mind keeping a few slants on the N if it were to ever run express in Manhattan again.
I know another line I'd like to see the slants on: the A.
The slants on the A were forever imortalized by the opening credits on "Night Court".
:-) Andrew
And I rode on them once on the A on Easter Sunday in 1978. That train positively ripped along CPW; those local stations were blurs. The slants were a worthy successor to the R-10s.
"2) I think the R68 on the G is a waste of a good car. They should run the R40S over there."
Agree! The R40's will be better served on a line that isn't hardly used.
"3) Is there a typo on the Rockaway Park shuttle ? I think it means to say 12 R44, not R46."
RIGHT! It's just doesn't make sense to have R46's serving the Rockaway Line when the R44's serve the A.
"5) I still think they should put skirts on about 150 Redbirds and put them on the J/Z."
FUNNY! FUNNY! AND MORE FUNNY!!!! HAAHAH AHAHAAHAHAHA AHAHAHA. Seems like you HATE the J line!
N Broadway Line
Astoria
Here's What These People Should Have Done.
1. Cut the 360 R-46's on the F Line and put some on the N Line and make the F Line run with 260 R-46's And the N Line with 100 R-46's.
2. G Never Ran R-68's. Should Put R-68's on the E And Make The G Run With R-32's Instead.
3. Instead of running R-46's on the Rockaway Park Shuttle. The Rockaway Park Shuttle should run R40S's Instead.
That's All I Have To Say.
>>>And Make The G Run With R-32's Instead. <<<
Can't run OPTO with R-32s either.
Peace,
ANDEE
Plus with the way the boards are set up on the G, you'd have to run 10-car trains of R-32s, which is wasteful.
Rockaway Shuttle Runs R44-type MU cars. Must have full width cab for OPTO operations.
R68 MUs are shopped out of Concourse and Coney, E trains are out of Jamaica and are assigned as such.
What happens with the other 100 cars on the F? R42s? I'd like that.
:-) Andrew
NO MORE R68's on the N LINE? Aren't those R40M cars are from the J line? hmmmmmm. I don't like how this sounds.
N Broadway Line
Astoria
The new W line will have all the R68As there instead.
The R-68's On the G Line Is A Good Replacement for the R-46's that run's the G Line Today will be going on the V Line Instead.
Putting R-40S's Is A Bad Idea Because Sometimes the G Line Uses the OPTO on the G Line.
Dominick Bermudez
Please don't take this the wrong way, but you don't need to capitalize every single word.
> Putting R-40S's Is A Bad Idea Because Sometimes the G Line Uses the OPTO on the G Line.
Actually, when the proposed changes take effect, the G Train will be OPTO all the time. Unless, of course, by some miracle we get lucky and the MTA bans conductorless trains from passenger service!
- Lyle Goldman
How come the R110B are idle?
But them on the Rock Park Shuttle.
avid
AFAIK, two of the three sets are in service on the C line as a 6-car train. The third set has been cannibalized for parts to keep the other two running.
I know ,that is the current status. The proposed line up doesn't show any usage. Does this forebode ill tidings for the 110B?
avid
The assignments shows all goose eggs for 67ft cars.
avid
Does anyone have specific information about the date of the last R16 revenue run in 1987? I'm assuming it was an M train, and I'll bet no "farewell fantrip" ever took place.
I've installed my favorite car as the background for my new PC. Looks great, covered in grafitti.....
I have no idea, but I think the J was more likely. The R27/30 and R42
ran on the M at the time, and I don't think they would have trusted such a troublesome car like the R16 on the Southern Division thru Dekalb Avenue at that point in their history.
YES JOE V! In 1985 the J ran the R16. They were loud and broke down often. I would regularly hear, "NO J train service" after I got off the M Local. Now I can see why the M line wasn't running these cars. On top of that, they were one of the ugliest cars I ever seen on the inside. Making the IRT look beautiful in comparison.
N Broadway Line
Astoria
Awwww, you didn't like those slanted door-motor panels? The pistachio green interior paint did NOT go too well with the charcoal grey seats, and the white ceiling paint peeled constantly, sprinkling bits of enamel on the passengers. The curved stanchions (the ones that connected to the transverse seats) and the R-10-style handholds were nice touches. I saw one many years ago (on the #14) with the red seats (I was just a little kid). That's one of the few times I went from Eastern Pkwy to Atlantic Avenue on the "L".
wayne
The R16 did indeed run it's last days on the M. In fact, all R16's were assigned to the M at the end, and I remember them running there as late as March 1987. The M line was abused considerably at this time. Until the summer of 1987, none of the rebuilt redbird R30's or overhauled R42's (pre-GOH) thet ran on the J appeared on the M, after the R16 disappeared.
I remember the Eastern Divison in January 1987 (during the LIRR strike). Every J I saw was R16 (although only 72 or so were running), the M R27/30/42.
You're mistaken. An odd R16 J train was possible, but almost every R16 trip during this period was on the M. The J at this time was almost completely R27/30, both pre and post (red) GOH.
I believe the date to be Monday, June 15th. I was working the M line that day (I'm a motorman) and we had R-16 equipment stored in Fresh Pond Yard, waiting to be sent to the scrapper. Due to a very late railroad, we didn't have a train leave Metropolitan Av. for quite sometime. The dispatcher had one of the R-16s brought up to make the 7:30 PM interval. I operated that train to Broadway-Myrtle, and brought it back "lite" to Met. Seats were missing, side signs were missing, people were already grabbing momentos! I don't have the entire consist, but 6337 was on the south, and 6328 on the north. I never heard of another R-16 operating in passenger service after that. Believe me, by that time they were in such sorry shape, we were glad to see them go.
Say, aren't those the ones that featuredt the round porthole-type windows? And wasn't the R-15/16 the only type to employ a three axel bogey truck? Someone settle this for me, as the suspense is killing me. Peace, Thomas:>
Yes, the R-15, R-16 and R-17 all had porthole storm door windows.The R-16 was a 60' car whereas the other two were 50'.
I don't think any subway car had a three axle truck!
Think about it and look at the msg board re the Red Birds.If the R 16,s just finished out there careers that's a good 45 to 46 year run for an order of cars that were only 200 in total. They started on the 15/J with a great deal of stop and go until the advent of skip stop. They did get to stretch between ENY and Marcy during AM PM rush hours. With dyanimac breaking they speeded up the trip over the ole standards they replace. After going in the service 7/62 to drive a tank I lost track of all the other assignments they drew. Iv'e seen pics of them on the R/and other lines.
I do remember the first run over the Rockaway line that used the R-16's moveing along at 15 mph. I'm glad it was a cool day.
So lets give a cheer for the Ole R-16's I hope one or two are saved. Three would be better as that's the way they ran in the late nights.
I think you misunderstood something somewhere.
The R-16's careers ended back in 1987. They're long gone!
The way I read the message I didn't catch the year of the msg. Sorry for the mistake. But the R-16's did the job better than some later models.
Actually, the R16's lifespan was 32 years, max. Many were scrapped in the early-mid 80's, so they didn't make the 35 year mark, which would qualify them as "disappointing".
That's also true of the R17-R22 (1955-1987 at best), R27-30 (1959-1991 at best). They were considered to be better cars.
Being single car units (hence no air-conditioning retrofitting possible) and already into middle age when the worst of the graffiti scourge/lack of preventive maintenance occured during the 1970s probably hurt the R-21/22's longevity.
The R-30s, of course, were done in by the MTA's fixation with a fully ACed B Division (minus the R-32 GEs) and the lack of vision that the Metrocard transfer would bump up the passenger load in the late 1990s to the point that those trains would be needed again.
The GE R32, you mean the 10 rebuilt with the R38's, and they are not AC'd ?
The R-32 GEs were air conditioned, but the system (compressors?) broke down and the MTA had no replacement parts. So now, like the R-110B, they hold out a couple of cars to canabalize for other parts, and run the surviving eight sans air conditioning, making them the only B Division cars currently going without. No problem this time of year, but they reportedly were kept out of revenue service last summer.
More specifically, the cradles which hold the compressors in place fractured after having been installed - to correct the problem would involve removing all the piping and tubing - a true monument to poor engineering.
wayne
There is #6387 (NYCT museum, VG), #6398 (Kingston museum, NM), #6305 (NYCT Coney Island, FAIR), AND the schoolyard car, not sure of the number, not operational.
Does anyone know what happened to the R16 GOH prototype - #6429 - that they converted in 1980? I assume it's been scrapped, but would like to know when that happened.
wayne
GOH prototype? Any more info about this?
Look at page 67 of Greller's book NYC Subway Cars if you have it. 6429 got R42 windows and doors and a R44 front door on its steel end. That page also shows R16's on the F, and GE ones in Rockaway Park yard displaying both numeric and letter route signs simultaneosly. The letter signs were in the former desination roller. One has 10 and M, another has 14 and KK. They must have posed them for this.
Yes, numbered roll destination signs go all the way up to 13 as I understand it, and the MTAs experiment with double-lettered routes was discontinued sometime in the early to mid 1980s. But with them assigning so many new route letters, I think they'll need to eventually go back to this at some point. Does anyone know the ISBN# of the Geller book so that I can mail order it? Please post it if you do!! BTW- STILL no one has been able to answer my question whether or not the R-15/16/17 series cars used triple-axeled bogey trucks or not. As a young boy occasionally being able to ride the #2 and #3 lines these were run on, I couldve sworn that they did!! Does no one out there in SubTalk land know?! Peace, Thomas :>
The route signs went to 16. Jamaica Bway was the 15. If one looks at the outstanding photo gallery of retired cars on the BMT you will see the higher numbers.
Never any triple axle trucks under pass equip. Maybe confused with the Triplex type equipment.
The Triplexes did NOT have three axles per truck, although with their tremendous weight, it might have helped.
Thanx 4 the info, although riding them as a child I coulda SWORN I always saw three sets of wheels per bogey, why exactly are the Called "Triplexes" , anyway? What then, if not axels, are there 3 of?! Inquiring minds wanna know. Peace, Thomas:>
Three units of car articulated together, each sharing a common truck.
Naw, ALL of you to respond to my question have gotten it wrong, I was speaking simply of an ordinary IRT spec train car with a truck at each end, but with 3 instead of the usual 2 axels in each truck. Those who like the idea of a multiply-articulated car sgaring common trucks should check out the State of the Art train on this very site!!
Peace and Free Love for all who cannot otherwise afford to buy it, Thomas:>
I don't know what you're talking about, as I've never seen it, but I hope that you finally get the correct answer.
I was only answering which car is commonly referred to as the Triplex.
Three articulated cars sharing common trucks? I guess this is why they named it the TRIPLEX!!! Thanks for the info. Peace, Thomas:>
BTW: On your triple axle question, I was suspecting you might have seen a work car perhaps that might have had one but all my looking turns up nothing that was triple-axle, not even the locos. Certainly not any of the R cars ... I guess the only place you're going to see them is in the skating rink at Rocky Center ...
New York City Subway Cars (James Clifford Greller) by Xplorer Press has an LC No. 94-060874. Can't find an ISBN#.
ISBN 0964576503
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
You can thank the R-46s for the "longevity" of the R-16s. Had it not been for the cracked Rockwell trucks on the R-46s, the R-16s would have retired much sooner!
--Mark
Actually, they all got mothballed around 1979-80. The R46 debacle put the Westinghouse (6300's) cars back in service, not the hated GE cars (6400's). The GE ones only saw 25 years of service. For a car that was technologically similar to an R10 thru R30, I don't understand why they were so lousy. I remember riding them on the 15-Jamaica Express, and they ran pretty well down Broadway, although, it was mostly downhill.
The only explanation I can contemplate to describe why the R16 was such a headache was their assignment to the low priority eastern division, thus they didn't get any of the scant "maintenance" that was done in the late 50's/60's. It's IRT counterpart ran with a much better track record.
Could be, although the last 400 rebuilt Standards lived to be 45 or so out there until 1970.
The BMT standard was a superior car all around. Well-designed and built, it was durable and damn near indestructible. The R-16s rode well, but didn't care for snow. Whenever a snowstorm bore down on Brooklyn and Queens, the R-16s were sent to the Canarsie line while the unstoppable BMT standards took over on the Broadway, Myrtle Ave., and Jamaica lines.
Anyone from car shop here? Open frame motors, eh?
The trouble with that was the Jamaica Express was down to 6 Standards, rather then 8 R-16's, making for some overcrowding. Although, in the pre-Chrystie '60's, there was only a 1 hour or so window per rush hour that 15 train was 8 cars, as opposed to 6 and 3 cars at nite. I never even saw a picture of an 8-car Standard, and there were enough single units and 2 car sets to make it happen. There were also big 8 signs (further out than 8/R) all over to reflect the possibility.
There were eight car "standards" running on lines such as the Brighton Baech and I think the West End line. Occasionally there would be "standards" on the Sea Beach line but that was generally served by the "Triplexs".
BMTJeff
I've heard that the Triplexes were no longer on the Sea Beach by the early 60s; except for weekends when the R-27/30s covered all Southern Division service, BMT standards were the norm.
I've heard that the Triplexes were no longer on the Sea Beach by the early 60s; except for weekends when the R-27/30s covered all Southern Division service, BMT standards were the norm.
Chris,
The R16s were problems from the get-go. They were first assigned to the Jamaica Line, but when it looked like there was going to be inclement weather, the ABs of the Canarsie Line and the R16s of the Jamaica Line were swapped. I understand that the reason for this was that the Canarsie line is primarily underground, where the R16s doors,motors, brakes, etc were less affected.
I believe that while less frequent and deferred maintenance on the Eastern Division certainly accelerated the problems of the R16s, they were destined to be poor performers.
We've got: Hot Lunch!
This going back a ways, but in all my trips on the Jamaica line with the R 16's until May of 62 and from the beginning of their service I never had a train of R 16's fail. They were cold in the winter most probably due to frequent stops and slow recovery of heaters. True they should have just used the same techonology as the standards and just polished the wheel and not brought into alot of new tech hype. Look what has happened over the years. The TA gets a good trouble free design and they should stay with it. Only buy large orders of cars on proven design tech. Less breakdowns reliable service and the people will ride. The operators (Motorman and Conductors) will be less frustrated and in the long haul the TA will at least break even.
What about the R16 made it more troublesome than the R17? Weren't both cars essentially the same, mechanically? I can understand that the R17 had a better performance simply because it was used mainly on the Lexington Ave. and Flushing, which were very "high-priority".
For one thing, they were a lot heavier than an R17, and for that matter, an R10. Their underpowering could have contributed to their slowness, eventual strain, and unreliability. The GE cars were particularly bad, but the book "They Moved Millions" acknowledged that a similar car in different parts of the system could behave diffrently. It is no exaggeration that the 50 R16 originally assigned to the A had a very hard time with the salt air on the Rockaways even when new.
Flip back to September 2000 on the Subway Calendar for a look at a set of R-16s on the Myrtle.
Mr t__:^)
In their original olive drab and #10 route signs to boot.
Its true that I heard some R16 survived onto 1988 when they were scrapped later that same year?
whats the point of the new lines? they say that they are there to reduce crowding on the e/f lines but it doesn't make no sense. just like there detour notices don't make any sense when the train can run through the line. anyway, instead of eliminating the q line. run it to 179th st. and do local stops to forest hills instead of the f making those stops. run it local with the g and r trains down to 36th st. and then through the 63rd st. tunnel. and the g should keep running to forest hills. everyone says that the g is useless but it is obvious that nobody knows how useful it is. especially to the people who live in greenpoint brooklyn who come into queens. that line had a big increase in ridership and it is getting bigger. everytime i ride it going home from work, it is lightly jam packes half the time. more crowded in its midline.
You may not be aware of the true purpose of the 63rd St. tunnel when it was conceived: to provide a completely NEW route thru Queens. They ran out of money and terminated it at 21st St., with the hope of sending it farther "some day". Don't blame this on the TA. The politicins provide the money so the routes can be built and the TA uses the "cards" it is dealt! "Some day" never came and so it wouldn't be completely useless, it was decided to hook it up at 36th St./ Northern Blvd. Everybody has his own ideas for a service plan, some good, some bad. The TA only has so many cars to work with since the R143's are late.
The TA only has so many cars to work with since the R143's are late.
How late are they? When were they ordered? Before or after the TA discovered that you can increase revenue by lowering prices?
Here are all the problems with your plan, from least to most obvious.
G+R turn at 71st and Q goes through, highly difficult to turn trains and provide through service on the same track even with a relay.
10TPH R + 10TPH Q + 8TPH G = Overload. Montague st tunnel has 28 TPH, massive delays if even one extra train (rerouted Q) gets thrown in. It works only because all trains share tracks only for 3 stops. On QB it would be 12 stops, one of which is a terminal.
Q makes local stops instead of F past Forest Hills: Nice idea, except those bastards at 169 st would bitch and moan about having a fully local ride to Manhattan (same reason why the R doesn't run there with the F express as was intended). Van Wyck Blvd and 75th ave could be dealt with by sending the E local, Sutphin people could take the E a few blocks away.
The Q would be on Broadway and doubled into express and local. You cannot turn one Q at 57th and send the other through, and sending both through would mean instead of 10 TPH, 20. Don't forget car shortage, extending 20 TPH several miles with our fleet would require an act of God.
Nothing serves 57/6th, unless you extend the Grand st shuttle (like the 80s).
Your argument for the G is rather weak. No one said it was useless, but obviously less useful than another line to Manhattan. Complaining about having to transfer at Court sq / 23 ely gives you the same attitude as those 169ers who can't even ride a train one stop and haul their ass across the platform.
As for your comment on the detours, it's easier to handle customers if no regular service is supposed to go through, it would have to be cancelled for the reroutes (which are necessary for the switch/signal/track replacement which had been pushed back until this thing opened). Plus, the Queens Plaza area is undergoing a transition and right now is under the control of several towers. Until QBP Master tower controls everything, it would be stupid to try and run simultaneous regular and connector service.
Don't forget, if the line is now running 20 miles instead of 10, you need to add more trains to the line (which they don't have) or decrease service frequency signifcantly on the central part of the line.
-Hank
i see i stand corrected. i need learn alot more. however, people can still tranfer to an express train at Parsons blvd. one stop away from 169th st. it would be best to then terminate the g at court square. you have clarified many things for me.
"especially to the people who live in greenpoint brooklyn who come into queens. that line had a big increase in ridership and it is getting bigger. everytime i ride it going home from work, it is lightly jam packes half the time. more crowded in its midline."
It depends on the DAY, KHI. For some apparent reason, usually after 10AM the line seem to have a larger ridership, than during rush hours.
What they (MTA) can do is run the line as a midday service when it's most popular instead of inconviencing most of the people heading to Manhattan.
One more thing, maybe the MTA can advertise the line as a faster way to downtown Brooklyn. I'm very sure they are a lot of workers who use the G line into downtown Brooklyn.
Question? How many people work in downtown Bklyn? And what can be done to the G line to make it attractive for persons heading for downtown Bklyn? Thank you all for your response!
N Broadway Line
Astoria
well downtown bklyn. does have alot of commerce down there. btw many already know that it is an easy way to bklyn.
A West Virginia driver drove into the side of a slow-moving NS freight train at 2:25 AM at a rural grade crossing protected by lights but not gates. The car was dragged, then hit by a train going in the other direction. The driver's wife, twin brother, and brother's girl friend were also killed. Story in Cleveland Plain Dealer.
What can you say about that that hasn't already been said somewhere on this site?
How do you drive into the side of a train? I'd hate to be crossing the street in front of that guy.
I have some theories about that, but I wasn't there, so I probably should keep them to myself. It's a terrible tragedy, and their loved ones are suffering.
Since it happened at 2:45 AM the first possibility that comes to mind is that he was asleep.
>>>Since it happened at 2:45 AM the first possibility that comes to mind is that he was asleep. <<<
And the second possibilty is that they had been out partying and the driver shouldn't have been driving,
Peace,
ANDEE
Yes, I suppose that is one reason for a West Virginian to go to Ohio.
amen
>>> I'd hate to be crossing the street in front of that guy <<<
That's something you no longer need to worry about.
Tom
That's no accident, that's plain old stupity in action. Forget crossing the street in front of the guy, I wonder how many times he went through his garage door.
Unless there was a second car involved. It's been known to happen.
-Hank
Unless there was a second car involved. It's been known to happen.
So true. The driver of the "second car" in another case was just sentenced to 80 years. If no witnesses come forward, I doubt that the forensic team will be able to tell from the debris whether there was another car this time.
Well, that particular case should be seperated, since it most definately doen't fall into the catagory of accident. There was every intention on the part of the second driver. As opposed to what happened to that girl in Iowa, whose car was dragged about a mile after she was rear-ended accidently at a crossing.
-Hank
Another case for the continuation of Operation Lifesaver by the nation's railroads. The message cannot be delivered enough times. Someone out there will always need to hear it.
MTA hasn't included weekend 63rd St service on its Website map...
Has Illinois Railway Musuem or Seashore Trolley Museum expressed any interest in obtaining any of these cars ?
About a year ago I saw a flyer that the Illinios Railraod museum were interested in aquiring a pair of R26/28 cars. The TA would donate a pair, but the museum would be responsible for funding to get them there.
[The TA would donate a pair, but the museum would be responsible for funding to get them there.]
That's usually aways the case. The cars are donated, but the transportation costs to flatbed a subway car off NYCT property are around $5,000. So, even a getting a subway car for "free" ain't cheap...:-(
BMTman
If IRM gets any, they might possibly get loaded on 2 TTX flats at the SBK yard and shipped by rail. IRM has an interchange with UP (ex-CNW).
Time will tell. They have shipped steam locomotives on their own wheels, so a couple of Redbirds should be no problem for IRM.
A couple of members from IRM came up to Shoreline Trolley Museum (aka BERA) last Spring and were interested in getting a set of Redbirds for organization.
I don't know if any Redbirds are being held aside for sale, but the MTA/NYCT Procurement Dept. would be one way to find out if any cars will be made available for purchase by private individuals or non-profit groups.
BMTman
IRM's board approved acquiring a pair of ACF cars and
some funding has been solicited and received. As for
Seashore I'd have to let T.G. comment on that.
"IRM's board approved acquiring a pair of ACF cars and
some funding has been solicited and received. "
Jeff H,
I heard there may be a problem with IRM acquiring the Redbirds. This has to do with asbestos and that any rail car leaving the TA for scrap must have asbestos removed. Will the TA waive this and IRM acquire the cars by signing a release ?
Bill "Newkirk"
That is the 2nd time I've heard the Asbestos problem. I heard from a TA source that they would not let ANY cars go without the abatement of the Asbestos and the TA wouldn't pay for that >G< sooooo no cars to to anyone except the fishieees.
The trains have asbestos? Is this any danger to the passengers?
Andrew
The trains have asbestos? Is this any danger to the passengers?
Only if they get run over.
The redbirds have Asbestos, no danger since it is fully encapsulated (pardon spelling). Asbestos is dangerous if it is flaking or in particle form where you can breath it in. Sinking the Redbirds gets the TA out of the very expansive removal of the asbestos since the cars will be sunk so no airborne particulate matter.
I remember opening a door access panel some 30 years ago and it looked like it was the usual "blown-in" onto the metal where they then sprayed plastic over it. While this encapsulation method (spelling was correct) does keep it from flaking, over time the encapsulant DOES crack and fall off which can result in "friable asbestos" (that's what flakies are called) occurring.
If a museum DOES manage to acquire some and if the TA is willing to make some available, I would expect that the museum folks would be required to send in a contractor to touch up the encapsulation before the cars could leave the property or the TA would use this reality as the reason for not allowing them to be acquired. Just so folks from the museums have an idea of what would be involved.
I've been involved in asbestos removal requirements in situations in office buildings where we had to open up the ceilings for bringing in new wiring for television facilities and things of that nature and as long as things aren't disturbed where the asbestos is, no biggie. But I would imagine the vibration and shock of riding the rails for 50 years has clearly created an asebestos problem inside the car walls.
I assume the asbestos never got removed in that strip down rebuilding all the conventional R units got ?
Why would the TA worry about asbestos after the cars no longer belong to them ? Put a clause in the contract that there are the risks, they are not repsonsible - take it or leave it, as is, where is. Asbestos didn't stop the LIRR from selling their P72/PT72/PT75 fleet to Ken Bitten, and they had corrosion problems far worse than the Redbirds.
Dunno ... perhaps the federal rules have changed on that stuff. While asbestos is clearly a risk, I think the extent of the risk has been blown way out of proportion ... but that's my own opinion. All I can tell you is when we wanted to pull in wires for a television facility in the Erastus Corning Tower Building in the Empire State Plaza in Albany, NY they went BOZO on us and we ended up having to close off half of a floor on the 21st floor of the building to have asbestos removed and the remainer sealed in before we could pull wires into the drop ceiling. This was in 1986 ...
It can be $5-10K for acquisition costs (including transportation, insurance, etc). Plus, at Seashore, we have a strict accession policy which requires a well though-out plan on how the car(s) will be stored, restored, etc. Finally, we have a severe lack of track space (not to mention barn space).
All that being said, I'd love to have a pair of 'birds at Seashore, if we can raise the money and get a project sponsor with the time to make it happen.
Are there still any MVMs with the Trade-in feature?
Does the MTA plan to restore it, or do they choose to remove it for all law-abiding citizens because of a few troublemakers and not fix the bugs to prevent the troublemaking
It'll take me forever to use up that Earth Day Metrocard and the paper Metrocard from the ATM.
Pork:
The few MVM's I tried as of late do not offer the trade in feature. So it looks like all the MVM's are possibly that way.
Saturday I had to combine two cards' value into one, did that via a station agent. They have to figure a way so the law abiding people who want to trade in or combine cards can do so without accessing the station agent. It's got to be a matter of reproggaming the computers within each MVM.
Bill "Newkirk"
the paper Metrocard from the ATM
Paper Metrocards? Really? How durable are they? I've seen Metrocards on ATM menus but have never bought one from an ATM. If they're paper, I may never buy one.
If they're paper, I may never buy one.
They're a hybrid type of paper, more durable than the transfer, and they look exactly like a regular Metrocard.
They are called "Triplex" MetroCards. They are made of plastic impregnated paper in three layers. We can not refill these at the booth. They are designed for one life cycle only--meaning when you use up the money on the card you pitch the card.
We do trade-ins at the booth. You can trade in up to 3 at one time, 5 if there is no line with an option (left up to us) to add 5 more. The only ctahc is the combined card can not be more than $100.00
They are called "Triplex" MetroCards. They are made of plastic impregnated paper in three layers. We can not refill these at the booth. They are designed for one life cycle only--meaning when you use up the money on the card you pitch the card.
We do trade-ins at the booth. You can trade in up to 3 at one time, 5 if there is no line with an option (left up to us) to add 5 more. The only catch is the combined card can not be more than $100.00
Thanks to everyone who answered my previous query about those abandoned trackways just west of the abandoned underground Woodhaven LIRR station. According to "Change at Ozone Park," (a GREAT LIRR book, for anyone who hasn't read it), turns out that those trackways once carried tracks to/from the north/south Rockaway Beach-Jamaica Bay route to/from the underground Atlantic Avenue line. These tracks were apparently removed in or about 1958-1962, as was the switch over the Atlantic tracks.
I wonder if those school buses have been parked "upstairs" all that time.
ther is a lot of old krylon cans remaining there and some are filled. I scouted those tracks before and recovered many cans dating from the 70s. kinda cool
in yesterday's times, in section 14, which is not archived on the web, peter marks described seeing a mouse get on a c train at 42nd street, scurry around the car for a while, and get off at 34th street ( perhaps to make connections for an express )... this was on the first page of section 14 in the "coping" column and was entitled "so it's come to this: rats riding the rails...
his prose matches our avid readers...
i will quote a sentence or two:
"As he boarded the C train at 42nd Street, every head in the car turned He was sleek and mysterious, lithe and enigmatic, a presence at once galvanizing and repellent."
when i initially read the first paragraphs, i thought i was about to read an adventure of heypaul and the kingfish...
i am sorry to report that no mention was made in the article of type of equipment, car number, or date and time of day...
I'm assuming that since he easily fit under the turnstile
(and probably less than three years old) he was exempt from paying a fare.
But he was not with a fare paying adult. So he should go jail, or instead, to the Cheese Wheel while somebody turns the crank. :-)
It's actually a new Jersey Mike plot to avoid paying fare. Morph into a rat, ride,then morph back into a person :^>
In his case I didn't think any morphing was required :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Excuse me, but I like to think of myself as a crow or raven.
That's cute and all, but really the city's rodent problem is pretty bad these days. I'm not even using the 14thSt/6th Ave station because last week, I saw a giant rat ON THE MEZZANINE LEVEL! I hope the city's doing something real about this (apart from the ad campaign.)
Anyway, I hope the mouse was headed for Penn Station--specifically Amtrak. Maybe it caught an express to California.
Andrew
The rats at 53rd and Lex (on the lower level E,F platform) are all over, and they are huge.
IND stations seem to have the worst rat problems.
Could that be because that IND stations are [generally] deeper than BMT or IRT stations??
It does seem like the deep stations such as 53rd and Lex seem to have the worst rodent problems. The IND has the most deep stations, doesn't it?
Some of the IRT stations are no bargains either. I remember the summer of '99 when I was waiting for the #3 train in I believe the Boro Hall station. A big ugly dark rat scurried right by me with no fear whatsoever. He passed me like I wasn't even there. If I had had quick reflexes I would have jumped sky high. Can something be done to eradicate the rodent problem in the subways?
Perhaps we can get PeTA involved in saving them ... after all, the poor little darlings might get electrocuted down there and that would be a bad thing. :)
Yummmm!!! French Fried Rat!!!
Quick, call the producers of Survivor!!!!
I actually saw mice/rats running around stations on the London Underground. Interestingly, it was the deep level tube statios that had the most rodents which would agree with the observations all of you have made in New York regarding the station depth and rodent population. Anyways, these mice/rats were able to squish beneath the positive conductor rail (the one outside as opposed to the negative one located between the running rails) and not be electrocuted because the tiles on the curved wall of the station and the concrete track foundation don't conduct electricity.
might get electrocuted down there and that would be a bad thing. :)
It probably would be a bad thing because chances are Roasted Rodents smell bad.
-Robert King
New Yorkers would take that in stride too ... "what's that smell?" is a community game here and there are some who would offer that some of the fast food easteries have the "inside track" on roasted rodents. Just ask those Dunkin' Donuts customers uptown. :)
As I understand it, some homeless people refer to rats as "Track Rabbits".
an something be done to eradicate the rodent problem in the subways?
Yes, but then most of them would just drive to Manhattan :-)
They seem to be immune to rodent poison.
FEED THEM
FEED THEM BEEF
FEED THEM MAD COW BEEF
MAD RAT
avid
Aw, just go and get them a Sabrett's ... sheesh. :)
Thats funny, I always understood the rumor/urban legend was that they were IN sabrett's franks! Peace, and Kosher Franks Only, Thomas:>
Watch it ... Hebrew National isn't exactly Glatt anymore either. I forget which huge multinational conglomerate owns them now but they're not made in Crown Heights either. Damn, I miss street dogs ...
I wonder if they're in Shofar's Franks?
BMTJeff
THOSE might be Kosher ... when I left "fun city" it was Sabrett's or House'O'Weenies (and of course some mystery meat called "GO" but since I worked on the subway, wasn't going to eat any more of THOSE) ... heh.
Enough already, you're making me lose my appetite talking about those bastard creatures.
We're sorry about what we're discussing. It is rather disgusting to think about what might be in your frankfurters. Hopefully only the good stuff is in Nathan's frankfurters.
BMTJeff
Woof. :)
If the truth must be known, here it is: there are rodent hairs, insect parts and the like in ALL the food you eat. The department of health has set "acceptable" limits on all of these.
Peace,
ANDEE
Isn't that swell! I'm not going to ask you how you know this, but you'd be great for the diet industry. A few more pearls like that and we'd all lose our appetites.
Sorry about that. I guess I got a little carried away. Let's hope this settles the issue before anyone has to reach for the Maalox
BMTJeff
I think that you're right that Shofar's franks are kosher.
BMTJeff
Hebrew National isn't exactly Glatt anymore either.
The ones I bought at the grocery this Sunday are...
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Wow ... I remember being some kind of magilla over them locally on the news for not being Glatt a couple of years ago, citing the "new" company that was manufacturing them. Will have to go check it out since I don't really care for the Mogen David brand they sell up here in these parts.
Oy! So if a rat eats a hotbog, it might be canibalism!
DOUBLE OY!!!
:O Andrew
oh hell !! after reading all of these threads etc...........there goes my KOSHER DOGS at PENN STATION adventure in newark !!!
my experence there is ruined forever !!!!
the most funny bunch of posts i have ever seen on subtalk in a long time !! i enjoyed them all !!! LOL !!!!!
On May 22, 1993 I was riding a No.6 train and I was standing in front of the "railfan" window and I saw a good sized rat down on the tracks at the 103rd St. station. I don't think that any subway station is free from rats.
BMTJeff
I don't know about 53rd/Lex. But, not that there's any excuse, but the 6th Ave/14th St station (among other INDs) might have some reasons why it seems to be one of the worst ones:
--It's relatively quiet. At least the F platforms are. When there isn't a train around, the mezzanine area is a ghost town--even at ush hours.
--It's a labarrinth! The F platforms are connected indirectly to PATH, to the L, to the long passageway to the 1,2,3,9, and to an abandonned passageway from 7th to 8th. At off-hours, there are a lot of places for rats to hide, and to run arround between sections.
But most of all, the subway is filthy! There's really no excuse for it!
Andrew
Sorry Mr. K, we don't want any of your rodents in our fair state. We have enough of them alreay, especially of the human kind. Besides, we have our own energy problems to worry about without the added burden of having to take on some of New York's problems.
Was this rodent of the 4-legged or 2-legged variety? There are plenty of both in the subways, y'know.
mitch... it's a shame this isn't on the web... there's a little color cartoon drawing in the middle of the article showing several standing passengers holding on to handrails... there's a man dressed in blue wearing a pin wheel cap... a woman dressed in red looking like she needs a shave with a cigar in her mouth... a tall rodent faced person with a hat on, with a rodent like nose and buck teeth... and the real kicker, behind him stands a green faced giant with the look of the frankenstein monster...
the cartoon is attributed to mark matcho... it is really funny...
oh yes... to my eyes, they look like they are standing in an r142...
Sounds fairly believable, but how did the mouse negotiate the 3" to 4" gap between the doorsill and the station platform edge? -Thom:>
If The Cops Saw That Rodent On The C Train. The Cops Just Shoot The Gun At the Rodent and the rodent is dead.
Then The Bullet Ricochets Off The Floor And Hits A Passenger And The Passenger's Lawyer Sues The City's @$$ Off
Car equipment on the C is a no-brainer: R-32s or R-38s or a mixed consist of both.
Late Friday morning, I spotted a train of MARC cars in the Sunnyside Yard, among the Amtrak and NJT cars. I couldn't get any car numbers since I was on a 7 train when I spotted them. Seeing NJT cars in Sunnyside is no big deal, but seeing cars that regularly don't go out of Maryland, DC, and West Virginia? That's something!
During SEPTA's last city division strike, I rode VRE and MARC cars regularly on the R3 as SEPTA tried to deal with the crunch of extra city riders using regional rail.
Because of the new Kawasaki bi-level cars, the old heritage cars become redundant. Some cars are usually leased to other commuter railroads. Maybe SEPTA borrows some of the MARC cars for assistance.
Chaohwa
It Could Be The Brand New Kawasaki Bi-Level Cars. When These Cars Where On The Way Down To MARC At That Time. Some Bi-Level Cars Are At MARC Right now.
I was getting on the 4:16 to Baldwin and spotted the same MARC train, left Penn on track 13 with passengers. A long cmmute from Maryland area.
I commute down to New Brunswick on NJT and have been seeing MARC cars regularly attached to the ends of Amtrak trains on the NEC for the past few weeks. Don't know if this helps anyone figure out what they're doing or why!
They weren't bilevels by any chance? I know NJT is in the market for a Bilevel car, and I'm sure they'd like to not have a repeat of the LIRR's brickliners...
If You Want To See Photos Of What MARC Runs.
Click here: TransiTALK International
Enjoy.
If You Want To See Photos Of What MARC Runs.
www.transitalk.com
Enjoy.
If You Want To See Photos Of What MARC Runs.
www.transitalk.com
Enjoy.
Dominick Bermudez.
Saw the train laid up yesterday am in Sunnyside Yard. Consisted of
old Metroliner MUs that were refurbished and called Capitoliners.
Stopped running as MUs in the mid 80s. You can still see where the
pantographs were placed on the roofs...
A posting about a public meeting makes reference to a proposed "walking transfer" between the (7) at 45th Rd. to the (E)(F) at 23rd St and the (G) at Court Sq. Any more details? Is this for MetroCard users only?
Bob Sklar
Yes, this is a Metrocard based transfer. Anybody out there know exactly how it works?
I have a theory. I remember when there was a temporary walking transfer between the IRT at 51st Street and the IND at 53rd Street and Lex (during escalator replacement that closed the direct connection, IIRC). Since no exit swipe is involved, it must be that the re-entry turnstile is programmed to accept the transfer on the Metrocard created at another subway turnstile and to leave the turnstile-created transfer in place instead of erasing it on use. Presumably, transfers created by bus fareboxes continue to be processed in the usual way.
I imagine Thurston knows for sure.
It could work like the free transfer from/to SIRT St. George and the Subway stops near South Ferry.
I can take a bus (pay fare) to the SIRT, swipe out at St. George (transfer) and then at tranfer (2nd time) at Whitehall for the N/R.
What PBS tonight at 9pm.
Click here for details
I watched that last night!
Question: Was Edward Budd (originally a carmaker in Philly) the founder of the Budd Company of Penn Central Metroliner MU and R-32 Brightliner fame? That was the Budd Co's original home, wasn't it?
Yes. Yes.
Additional background information, including a "Stramliners Timeline", is available from the PBS website:
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/amex/streamliners/index.html
Great show! I second the recommendation.
You did mean "tonight," right? Out of my 3 local PBS channels, none are showing it (WYBE, WHYY, NJN)
PBS is not on a national schedule all the time local stations have leeway in what the show and when they show it.
I second the nomination ! it was a great show to watch with a very sad ending !!!!!
get the video if you missed it, it is part of the AMERICAN EXPERENCE series on PBS !!
Article on subway bathrooms from the Post
Peace,
ANDEE
Bottom line: Some of us public are scumbags.
And with a cop attendant there any scumbag making a mess in there should be arrested (and if it were up to me, they'd be flogged).
And there needs to be more public restrooms that are monitored, and not the kind you pay for. Pay toilets should be outlawed.
You need to get some illegal aliens, or other desperate-for-a-job type. Cops won't play bathroom attendant, even if you give them a raise.
And I wouldn't blame them. Pay toilets are much better, because people treat things they pay for better then they treat things they get for free.
-Hank
That's right, you can get something for nothing for a while, but in the end you get nothing. What are you going to do? Raise the already high taxes, cut the already underfunded schools, or raise the fare to pay for toilet attendents? Nonsense, but you won't have decent services without them.
If there was a charge, you could have private franchisees upgrading and operating the bathrooms, with attendents and other amenities.
Pay toilets are a way of life in Europe; intercity rail stations, some stores, parks, etc. I hate having to pay for it but with my crummy bladder it's handy. Railfanning/sightseeing NYC by rail eventually has me feeling desperate, and I'm sure I have a lot of company.
Just as a side story I haven't seen that there are now or ever were public toilets on the Chicago el, Stockholm system, and likely other places. NYC is not an exception. Better to keep a bathroom clean, better to have to pay a small fee than risk a fine, better than having hidden parts of stations stink.
BTW highest price of a pay toilet I"ve seen? Train station Geneva Switzerland : 1 swiss franc..a US dollar more or less, just to pee. Full facility about 1 1/2 swiss francs. That's way too much.
Here's the solution. Intergrate a MetroCard farebox into the bathroom door. Uses of the bathroom are $1.50, just like a regular fare. You get as much time as you need. Unlimited ride cards would not be accepted. Of course you wouldn't be able to control more than one person entering the bathroom on one fare payment. You could setup Metrocard maidens to discourage that of course, but you would still on occasion get people doubling through the gate.
Anyway, it would keep the bathrooms in order I think if atleast one person had to pay a fare to use them despite how many actually enter.
By the way, I'm wonder if it's legal to put video cameras in areas of the bathroom where you can get a general idea of what's going on. They don't have to be positioned where you can see people doing there business, just so you can see for example, how many guys enter one stall :)
Would it be illegal to put up fake video cameras. I'm sure people would be scared to do anything if they thought they were being watched but really aren't. I mean does the lay say that no devices can be present at all even if they are fake? We may have something here.
Shawn.
The problem with bathrooms in the subway system is that some enterprising creatures will find them a convenient place to either sell drugs, engage in prostitution, commit robbery, or other offensive activity. Face the facts, opportunity presents in negative as well as positive ways. How to keep the bad guys from making things bad for the rest of us is a hard nut to crack.
By the way, I'm wonder if it's legal to put video cameras in areas of the bathroom where you can get a general idea of what's going on. They don't have to be positioned where you can see people doing there business, just so you can see for example, how many guys enter one stall :)
If the 'net can have old and honorable traditions, toilet cams are one of them!
And there needs to be more public restrooms that are monitored, and not the kind you pay for. Pay toilets should be outlawed.
We should also have a 100% tax rate, and all food, clothing, shelter, transportation, health care, right on down to funeral arrangements should be free and funded by the government.
Maybe in your horrible Utopia, but not in the real world.
Not much has changed. You may recall that Prime Minister Khruschev tried to use the Columbus Circle bathroom during his official visit in 1959. I guess the TA cannot be shamed into action.
It was probably an improvement over what they had in the former Soviet Union. Many bathrooms there had holes in the floor for doing your business, and not much else.
I hear they still have those bathrooms with a hole in the floor in China, even modern cities like Hong Kong have them. And you have to pay for a regular style restroom in those places. That really sux.
I hear they still have those bathrooms with a hole in the floor in China,
They had outhouses (no plumbing), when I was there 20 years ago.
even modern cities like Hong Kong have them.
So do Tokyo and Paris but they come with plumbing.
And you have to pay for a regular style restroom in those places
Actually, I had to pay to use a crouch, the last time I was in Tokyo. It was very clean and I was grateful it was available.
I think it is more sporting to try to use a crouch on a moving train. :-)
That really sux.
You mean America has seduced you with indoor plumbing? :-)
It was probably an improvement over what they had in the former Soviet Union
I have no first hand experience, but I'd would have expected that at that time the bathrooms would have been designed and maintained to the same standards as the rest of the Moscow subway. After all, Khrushchev was the commissar who built it in the 1930's.
Many bathrooms there had holes in the floor for doing your business, and not much else.
I don't know the technical term for such appliances. I know it is called a "crouch" in french. It is used in most of the world, including Western Europe. The question is whether or not it has working plumbing. The plumbing maintained by the NYCT tends to be non-functional.
andee...great article... thanks for linking it...
what was really interesting was the condition of the west 4th street station being attributed to the attention given by the transit authority police officer... the ta spokesman who shot down toilets because they would require 6 full time attendants was full of it... if it were known that the restrooms were being given regular attention by the police, then that would probably cut down a lot of the abuse of these facilities...
hey... new york is pretty low on the list of world class cities in providing amenities to people... i grew up with "make sure you go, before you leave the house", and it helped turn me into a full fledged neurotic... the story of the women going into the ladies room in the subway, and being repelled by the conditions speaks poorly of our concern for people.. if this is a city which is gallant and respectful of women, a clean and safe ladies bathroom should be a given... the mta is pissing away millions and millions of dollars to provide a clean, antiseptic, and hopefully safe new subway car or in fancy tiled floors... would they not do as much to provide for a basic human necessity for the millions of people who use the system everyday?
i grew up with "make sure you go, before you leave the house", and it helped turn me into a full fledged neurotic...
As Paul Harvey would say, now you know the REST of the story :)
--Mark
Must be that cheap birthday cake.:-)
Well said!
There should definately be decent subway bathrooms, if an attendant is all it takes then what's the holdup? These bathrooms should be contantly monitored by security. And any homeless/or mentally ill person making a mess in there should be arrested.
On another related note, the city is installing pay toilets around midtown. No one should have to pay to use a restroom. That is a new low.
On another related note, the city is installing pay toilets around midtown. No one should have to pay to use a restroom. That is a new
low.
Actually, the Paris Metro used a variation on the theme. The toilets were free. It cost to use toilet paper. However, the attendant supplemented her (usually a she - even for the men's loo) income by giving excellent shoe shines.
The inability for three successive city administrations to build a single "public convenience" in nearly a quarter century points to the shortcomings of their administrations. The conditions of the subway toilet facilities is a realistic measure of their maintenance practices in most other areas. Why the surprise?
Actually, the Paris Metro used a variation on the theme. The toilets were free. It cost to use toilet paper.
Couldn't do that in the good ol' U.S. of A. If NYCT (or anyone else) started charging for toilet paper, women's rights advocates would file sex discrimination lawsuits, on the grounds that women have to use t.p more often. No joke, I'm sure this would happen, and quickly.
Taking a glance back at the history of water closets in the subways we find :
At one time alternate life styles were against the law. Sometimes this life style was found to flourish in the waterclosets of the subways. This could not be allowed! After arrest and bashings failed to ammend these criminal ways coin operated locks were used. Now low rent rendezvous replaced water closets. Until most were locked for employees only use.
Go before you leave home, or leave work for home. Some of the transient tennents just use a shadowey stair or corridor or far end of a platform.
Some locations seem to get repeat visits. On the elavated stations the choice spot seems to be behind the stair to the lower mezz. Or the sand boxes seem to smell of urine. Low traffic volumn areas.
Where have you seen evidence of a bodily function discharge?
avid
>>>Where have you seen evidence of a bodily function discharge? <<<
Human or animal?
Peace,
ANDEE
Aquaduct station, northbound far end of platform. Stairs to north bound platform. Both occasions a few years back. Bothsightings on a Monday a.m. So I guess the culprets were weekenders. This station also gets a large number of beverage container collectors. The take them to a local Waldbaums for the deposit. They do leave the few cans that are not refunded at or near the station. So maybe????? they leave other deposits.
avid
No one should have to pay to use a restroom. That is a new low.
If you have a bathroom in your house, you have to pay to clean it (buy utensils, cleaning agents, do work), buy toilet paper, and pay for the water in the sink and toilet. You also have to maintain the piping leading into and out of the room. If you use any hot water you also have to maintain a water heater and buy the oil/gas/electricity for it. If you live in an apartment the water bill, oil/gas/electricity bill for the water heater and maintenance of the piping and water heater is factored into your rent.
Why should public toilets cost less than private toilets?
You get charged twice for eating. Once for consuming the food, then again for getting rid of the leftover by-product. My opinion, it's just plain wrong.
You're starting to cross the line from absurd to wackjob.
-Hank
I wonder if the writer of that Post article visited the "head" at Stillwell Terminal ?
Bill "Newkirk"
This Friday.
I Am Takeing Metro North. I Might Take Photos of the trains.
Also I Be Takeing Photos of Bee-Line Buses.Too.
Also I AM Trying Hard To Open A Webpage where I Will Put Photos on the web. But I Don't Have A Scanner Yet. I Getting One Sometime Soon.
This Friday.
I Am Takeing Metro North. I Might Take Photos of the trains.
Also I Be Takeing Photos of Bee-Line Buses.Too.
Also I AM Trying Hard To Open A Webpage where I Will Put Photos on the web. But I Don't Have A Scanner Yet. I Getting One Sometime Soon.
Dominick Bermudez.
be sure to take some pix!
If you dont have a scanner or digital camera, please send a set to Dave or to Peggy so we can scan the photos. You will be shown as the photographer. E-mail Dave orPeggy off-site if you want a snail-mail address.
Does anyone have any details on the Piermont Branch in Rockland County?...What railroad ran it, where it begins and ends, when was the last date of passenger/freight service and if there is local support for establishment of the line.
Does anyone have any details on the Piermont Branch in Rockland County?...What railroad ran it, where it begins and ends, when was the last date of passenger/freight service and if there is local support for establishment of the line.
Click here for a thread on this topic on another board.
The program is on PBS tonight at 9PM.
So Boys & Girls (mostly Boys anyway), you either want to be or already are a Train Operator. When you come to the B division (IND/BMT), you're gonna come to the dreaded Canarsie Line eventually. The T/O's say dreaded because of all the timers. But that's because they're all rookie stiffs :) . If you know how to operate the line, it can actually be one of the most fun lines to operate on! It's the only line in the system where you can manipulate the timers to clear within inches of your train! So if you're planning to operate, make fun of the T/O's wussiness when you're at the railfan window, or just wanna update your personal train simulator, heeeeeeeere's how to do it. BTW, when I say "wrap it", that means put the controller in parallel (max. speed). Also (bs) means........well.......you've heard of the train in the movie called "Silver Streak"? Well, operate at this speed and you'll be driving the "Brown Streak". Cause that's what you'll have on your underpants when the timers clear without you even seeing a yellow (though you may have that downstairs too).
Northbound to 8th Avenue:
Rockaway Pkwy to Sutter Av--wrap it.
Sutter to Atlantic Av--two points leaving Sutter, coast at 12 mph, begin braking as you reach the first timer at the end of the curve, two points to 12 mph after clear to the second timer, coast until second timer clears, two points to the yellow R resume sign (only yellow one that I know of), wrap at the R.
Atlantic to Bway Jct--two points over the switch, wrap it at the automatic at the edge of Bway Jct.
Bway Jct to Bushwick/Aberdeen--two points leaving Bway, coast at 15 mph, entering tunnel regulate brake to maintain 15 mph, last timer by Bushwick will clear at that speed, then wrap it.
Bushwick to Wilson Av--two points leaving Bushwick to 12 mph, coast at 12, train will pick up speed on it's own, first timer will clear way ahead, when you see the stop arm of the second timer, wrap it, timer will clear within 1/4 of a car length.
Wilson to Halsey St--wrap it.
Halsey to Myrtle Av--wrap it to 23 mph, can go as high as 26 (bs), coast, timer at 23 will clear within 1 car length, wrap it after clear.
Myrtle to DeKalb Av--wrap it to 31 mph, timer at the edge of DeKalb will clear within 1/4 of a car length. Or keep the train wrapped all the way (bs).
DeKalb to Jefferson St--wrap it to 15 mph, coast, all timers will clear with room to spare, wrap it.
Jefferson to Grand St--wrap it
Grand to Graham Av--two points leaving Grand, when approaching the timer prepare to stop the train at the timer as it is very slow to clear. No more than 10 mph into Graham.
Graham to Lorimer St--two points to 16 mph, coast, first timer will clear with room to spare, halfway to second timer give two points, second timer will clear within 1 car length, wrap it.
Lorimer to Bedford Av--wrap it.
Bedford to 1 Av (tube)--wrap it to 24 mph, can go as high as 27 mph (bs), at 39 mph (41 for bs) wrap it, third timer will clear within 1 car length, fourth timer will clear within 1/4 of a car length. Average speed-48 mph.
1 Av to 3 Av--wrap it.
3 Av to Union Sq--wrap it to 20 mph, coast, timer at Union Sq will clear within 1/2 of a car length, wrap it into station.
Union Sq to 8 Av--wrap it. Entering 8 Av, go through station timers at 7 mph.
Southbound to Canarsie:
8 Av to 1 Av--wrap it.
1 Av to Bedford Av (tube)--wrap it to the green signal before the timer area, coast, when first timer clears within 1/2 of a car length, wrap it the rest of the way. Timers will clear within 1/2 of a car length. Average speed-52 mph. Or for (bs), instead of coasting at the first green, keep it wrapped to the yellow then coast. You won't see the timers clear but they will. Average speed (bs)-56 mph.
Bedford to Lorimer St--wrap it to 20 mph, coast, timer will clear within 1 car length, maintain 20 mph speed limit into station.
Lorimer to Graham Av--wrap it.
Graham to Grand St--leave station at 1 point until timer at edge of station clears, two points after clear to 10 mph, blind timer on curve parallel to the R in "Revs" painted on wall. For the blind timer and the timer after that, maintain 8-9 mph. For the final timer keep your train under control and be prepared to stop. When final timer clears, enter Grand at 18 mph.
Grand to Montrose Av--wrap it to 24 mph, coast, timer will clear within 1/2 of a car length.
Montrose to Morgan Av--wrap it to 20 mph speed limit, coast, resume at the R.
Morgan to Jefferson St--wrap it to the top of the hill. Reduce speed to 20 mph then coast, timer will clear within 1/2 of a car length, wrap it after clear.
Jefferson to Bushwick/Aberdeen--wrap it.
Bushwick to Bway Jct--wrap it to the signal box one car length short of Bway Jct, coast to timer while train loses speed on hill, timer will clear within 1/2 of a car length. Warning: be very aware leaving Bushwick. If the first elevated automatic is yellow, the home signal one car length past the automatic will be red. Hit the home ball and you're toast.
Bway Jct to Atlantic Av--two points to 14 mph. maintain speed down hill for timers to clear.
Atlantic to Sutter Av--wrap it, approaching timer area reduce speed to 15 mph and maintain that speed for timers to clear.
Sutter to Livonia Av--wrap it to 18 mph, coast, home ball timer will clear after you pass the yellow automatic, wrap it after clear. If you do any more than 18 mph, the home ball will not clear.
Livonia to New Lots Av--wrap it.
New Lots to E 105 St--wrap it to 17 mph, coast, when approaching timer keep train under control, wrap it after clear. Warning: make sure that both the automatic timer and the home ball are both clear. These two signals are very erratic to the point where the automatic will be green while the home ball stays red! Also don't trust that timer, always keep your train under control until the timer clears ahead.
E 105 to Rockaway Pkwy--normal speed to station timers, pass timers at 7 mph.
So that's it. Time to go to work now. Next time I'll go over how to work the 60th Street tube timers.
Thanks Zman!
As always, I look forward to the next installment...
We COULD make this into a video installment..
Thanx! My next installment has already been posted.
Thanks for the fascinating info! I'm sure glad I'm only a railfan looking out the front window! I've been riding the 14th St Canarsie off and on since the Multi days (c. 1946).
Your welcome Victor. Next time you're on the L, go to the window and see for yourself. You'll know if you have a "regular" T/O within the first couple of timers.
After working 4 round trips on the L today, I clenched my cheeks more than the people using the "Buns of Steel" video!
Hahahaha ...
Say, what were those Multis like, anyway? Did you really have to "hang on", as the signs suggested?
Thanks for that treat, bro! Been a long time since I've had throttle time and that reminded me of why my hair turned color at such an early age. :)
Oh really? I thought that you were using "Reverse Grecian Formula"! :)
Anything to help Sel. I still remember when you posted your first messages regarding your old operating days. It was like reading a book that you couldn't put down. By far those were the best messages I've ever read on this forum!
Thank ya! Heh. That's all she wrote though - I've shot my wad here. Wouldn't want to get redundant after all. I've been pestering my wife to find this picture of me from back then when I was a conductor to post here - the old 70's "ta bloo soot" uniform with handy tie, asleep on the snow covered tracks at Coney waiting for my ride, fast asleep, head on the third rail board and all dreaming good thoughts of getting a consist that wouldn't lay down before leaving the terminal. We'll find it yet and post it ... "things NOT to do at Stillwell" ... heh.
Find it! I'm sure some of my co-workers will get a kick out of it!
Will pester the wife again in the morning ... I *know* we still have it but it's packed away somewhere. We've been in this house for three years now - well, you know how it is ... it's a sickie ... dispatch had a canary when I showed it around and of course the obligatory lecture of "you know there's 600 DC right next to your head, don't you?" Of course, in my own inimitable style, reminded him that it was the only way I was allowed to get a good buzz on. He didn't get the joke. Some folks just don't have a sense of humor. :)
That's definitely worth a rim shot.
Ya know what's funny about it all? Jay St actually believed they were running the railroad ... which was news to Stillwell. Boy did I get my butt chewed for what's in that picture, especially after showing it around down there. The TMO rose four feet in the air when he saw it and started pouring smoke like an electrical closet on the IRT. Will see about digging out the picture and posting it. I'm sure it will amuse many here. I mean what else are ya gonna do at 4:30am when you're still waiting for your car assignment?
1971 was an amusing time at the "ta" ... so little functioned and so many had absolutely no sense of humor and I had packed with a genuine bunch of cutups including a conductor that would read the newspaper on the PA whenever he got a 32 or 44 to the geese. And would tell you more than you ever wanted to know about the next stop ... despite the hassles, the railroad was actually FUN at the time ... it was the only way to get through a day there.
Here ya go, as promised ... sorry the quality of the image has gone to hell in precisely 30 years from the time it was taken but here's what I looked like when I was on the railroad ... waiting for my ride. Got my rump chewed "bigtime" for doing this ...
Kids! Do NOT try this at home! Only TRAINS should be laid up in the yard. :)
the pic is a hoot! you are one brave S.O.B...
Well ... before anyone gets stupid and tries to reproduce it with their mug in the shot ... I was born and raised in the Bronx and learned very young not to do truly stupid things (I'm still here after all) ... if you take a good look at the picture, it's actually an optical trick combining a low camera angle from the next track.
If you note, my shoulders are NOT on the rail and folks on the railroad know it would have to be to actually have rested my head on the cover. I was actually 24 inches away from the third rail but the angle makes it LOOK like my head's on it. It ain't. You never know when a jacob's ladder's gonna shoot across and I wasn't taking any chances. But it sure does LOOK that way, enough to fool the folks I was working for at the time. Made a lot of hairs stand on end but not mine. :)
Does Sallam's new video show this ? i havent checked this far into the video yet.
Have you got any photos of yourself assuming the position?
Sadly no, and no cab shots either. That one was taken by a coworker and he gave me a copy of it. You don't think of taking pictures of yourself at work usually ... at least I didn't. But had it not been for a wisea$$ bud of mine, that one wouldn't exist either. He wanted me to do something stupid for the camera and well ... that's what I did. :)
[Warning: make sure that both the automatic timer and the home ball are both clear. These two signals are very erratic to the point where the automatic will be green while the home ball stays red! Also don't trust that timer, always keep your train under control until the timer clears ahead.]
Additional info to add: track and/or signal workers were working over by that home ball (P1-65 I think) right past the timer on Thursday. I believe the trackage over there was recently re-tamped and more ballast was added because trains no longer "bottom out" when they touch ground from the New Lots El structure. It's a nice smooth ride now (no more bouncing) as the train roars into E.105th Street.
Nice post zman!
BMTman
Funny you should mention that, the signal maintainers forgot to remove their orange warning flag when they left. Trains kept whistling (including mine) until dark.
Gee, zman, I was going to tease you for having to work the L Canarsie Line this week instead of being on your beloved Queens Boulevard Line. But I see you're having too much fun. So much for that.
Why you got to be such a spoilsport? :-)
Sorry bout that Dogg. To make it better for ya, I had to go PM's for two weeks after having AM's for 10 weeks. You can tease me on that!
BTW, hope the C is treating you iiiiight!
For the last couple of weekends, the C has been great! There have been no E trains to get in my way. Been getting up to the terminals on time, even a few minutes hot! And because I didn't have to worry about the E, I was able to get in front of the B at 59th.
But alas, all good things come to an end sooner or later. The E will be back, and I'll be miserable again.
Story of my life. :-(
Consider the A or a two tripper on the C next pick.
But if I were you I'd go VR next pick. You'll have nothing but weekends off all summer (I don't know how much time you have Dogg, but if you've got 3+ years as a C/R, you'll have weekends for the whole pick). Also you'll get Memorial Day, July 4th and Labor Day off. Guaranteed! And you could hook up one week FS rdo's and the next week SM rdo's and get AVA's for TW and voila! A week off in July/August!!
If you don't need an absolute fixed schedule, GO VR!! I wouldn't steer ya wrong. I'm VR and I'll be staying VR for a long time to come.
I did work VR for one pick, zman. It was in the winter when all the rookies go on vacation so I got alot of T/W, W/T and T/F off. The only time I got weekends off was when no one wanted to work the four trippers on the E for 11 hours pay. Most of the time they put me extra, which I hate with a passion.
I guess it's worth considering. I do like the C, but I'm tired of the hassles that come with it. If I can get a decent file number on the VR list, I'll definitely consider it. Thanks, buddy.
Trust me. The winter VR and summer VR are two totally different things.
I was #70 out of 70 on the winter VR list as a C/R in 1985. I did pretty well even though some weeks I was extra.
There will be no worrying about being extra in the summer that's for sure. I'll lay $20 to a donut on that.
Make that 1995.
I was gonna say, zman, you got all of that time under your belt and you went VR instead getting a pick job? LOL
I don't know about the C line now. They done went crazy this week. Zero tolerance. They've taken several conductors out of service for improper announcements, and being in the cab between stations with the cab door closed. No warnings issued. Just out of service and to Labor Relations.
Ah, yes. There's nothing quite like the feeling of a noose being tightened around one's neck, now is there?
Queens Blvd would be a good line to have one of these "Zman descriptions."
Beat you to it. See part 3 which has been already posted.
I'll give you my take on how I go through the 60th St tubes northbound. After I get to the GT 50 sign, I let it coast to signal G272 then wrap it up. I should warn you if you are operating the N southbound, beware of that last timer. You cannot see it until the last second. If there is some moisture on the roadbed, you can see the reflection of the signal aspect. I haven't worked the L for about 4 years. I operated through the timers basically the same way you do except I'm a little slower in the tubes. That timer southbound at the junction must be new. I don't recall it being there the last time I was on the line.
>>>That timer southbound at the junction must be new. I don't recall it being there the last time I was on the line.<<<
You're right. It was installed over the past year and serves absolutely no purpose except to be a pain in the a** as it's in the vicinity of the 4 car marker after going up hill.
Hint.
If you don't already, use some windex or other cleaner on your head lights. Get every bit of candlepower out of them. Some come with crud that deminishes the available light.
avid
???
Do you even realize the severity of the penalties today for running red signals to the point one can lose their handles for 6 months for passing one? What happens to you during an efficiency test if you pass one? A demotion that the union can't do squat about. Newer signal systems in the IRT and BMT will record infractions of key-bys and over runs, and while RTO is going to have to explain the lateness, signal department has them under lock and key. If you aren't banged in, it could come back to haunt the TW/O. No T/O should be encouraging anyone with calculated formulas as how to cheat signal timing. Furthermore, the Canarsie Line used to be 3 trips before equipment overhauls. By arbitrarily cutting running time, you are encouraging the TA to cut the time altogether. They did it at Woodlawn when the R62s came out replacing slower equipment and we couldn't put it in coast. The speedometers can be misleading and if you are only allowing half a car for a signal to clear, you do not have the desire to retain the job that used to be the best in the city. We are going to have our hands full with these off the street personnel, don't demoralize the little we have. If you can't slow it down, don't encourage others to speed up. This place is going to hell and discipline is going up even with ND in place, we can't represent those who just act foolishly.
>>>What happens to you during an efficiency test if you pass one?<<<
All the L ine TSS's have said than when an efficiency test is conducted, it will not be on one of the timers.
>>>Newer signal systems in the IRT and BMT will record infractions of key-bys and over runs<<<
Don't have to worry about that here! The signal system is so old that most of the "red with lunar white" timers don't have lunar white aspects!
>>>By arbitrarily cutting running time, you are encouraging the TA to cut the time altogether<<<
It's extremely difficult to run early on the L as the running times are already cut to the bone. It's been 37 minutes from end to end ever since I entered the B division in 1994. With a fast T/O and C/R, you MAY be 2 minutes early.
BTW, you know who teaches the personnel how to operate this way? The L line TSS's themselves! That's how I learned and any new T/O will be schooled on their first day on the L by the line TSS as to how to work the timers as well. It is encouraged as there is no room for error on the schedule. Lose two minutes and it's gone forever.
I strongly suggest that you take a ride on the L to see for yourself.
BTW, you know who teaches the personnel how to operate this way? The L line TSS's themselves! That's how I learned and any new T/O will be
schooled on their first day on the L by the line TSS as to how to work the timers as well. It is encouraged as there is no room for error on the schedule. Lose two minutes and it's gone forever.
That's great. But if they want me to operate that way - charging up to timers that clear half a car lenght ahead of me - I want it in writing over their names! That way, on the day when Signals does something to the timer and I hit it, I can prove I was operating according to written directives. Too many times since coming out, I've had TSSes tell me to wrap it up in places where the speed restrictions won't let me. If something happens when I follow their suggestions, but they are not there with me, I hang for it! The TA won't care if TSS ???? said I could wrap it leaving South Ferry - the signs say 10 mph leaving and then a 15 mph into Rector St. When I was in School Car for the R142 training, we were going south from Union Sq to Bklyn Bridge - through a '25 Miles' area, when the TSS pushed my controller to max (with a Supt watching) and told me I was going to slow. I pointed out the sign and was told it was wrong. Asked for it in writing and was given a blank stare. So we went back to 25.
As for schedules, most of them are too tight. When I came out in '97 as a CR, running time on the 2 between rush hours was 90 minutes (some runs during rush hrs were up to 96 min). Now they are down to 86 minutes. To compensate for the reduced run time, MORE timers have been added and we have been given trains that NEED more dwell time in each station. Schedules be damned! I'll get to White Plains when I get there, and not one minute sooner! Yesterday, my 0704 Flatbush left at 0700. By the time we left Nevins St, we were on time for our regular leaving time; by the time we left Manhattan, we had lost another five minutes and then we had a sick passenger at Mott. I dumped the train at White Plains at 0843 - 10 minutes late from normal, 14 for this trip. The TD, ATD And Line Supt didn't even ask what happened, because it is such a regular thing.
Alex, you sound like a good candidate for a steward. If your interested I can get you contacts. We are looking for 300 to make the place safer not faster. If the TA wanted trains to go faster, they would have left the field shunting alone. Zman, to have a TSS tell you how to operate and to encourage anyone to break the rules is one who should be monitored closely, not obeyed in the same of the TA's idea of efficiency. T/Os break in students, not TSSs. I brought this up in a posting 188915 for off the street T/Os that I prefer the one to break in new employees to be one who runs the road 5 days a week, not one who thinks he/she knows it because he/she is a supervisor. You seem to have more excuses for management. If the lunar white isn't there on the L line, why are you expecting it to clear? If the running time is inefficient, tell the Supt in a G2 but by now, I'm sure it is too late if you are a regular. This isn't your fault you weren't properly broken in but do you think for a minute if the TSS told you they won't be efficiency tested at a timer that they won't write you up if you pass one anyway? The TSS will deny everything you state he/she said. I was at arbitration while an RTO Superintendant blatently LIED about car movement consists in his yard during the attempted termination of a T/O allegedly involved in a collision that occured in his yard. Understand the TSSs are on the company side, which is to move trains safely and "efficiently" from one point to another. If you pass a red signal, you aren't safe and you aren't efficient. Effiency can be dabated at the step hearings, the safety violations usually can not. They can and will write you up for unsafe actions because you can cost supervisors their jobs if they "know" and fail to act. If you are late at the terminal, you usually have an excuse, and even if you don't, it should get tossed out anyway. You are in violation for running early, you have the excuses to run behind. Otherwise, Zman, I will meet your aquaintance at the step 1 hearing in the future.
As a customer & TO wanabee I recently have enjoyed just such a ride on the L with a female TO (who was pushing the red lights all the way under the East River) and, who gave me a big smile at Carnarsie as we exited & I said "nice ride, thanks", BUT it sounds like the Zman is playing with fire and getting some good advice from his colleague.
Mr t__:^)
I fully understand where Mr. Engine Brake is coming from.
But schedule wise I'm now off the Canarsie Line and have no immediate plans to go there for a while. I'd rather work out of Jamaica or Forest Hills as they are much closer to home. Heck, I actually walk 15 minutes to Jamaica Center.
Though you've got to admit, it's kinda fun to watch the L via the railfan window isn't it?
My recent ride was in a Slant 40 ... plunty of room for my grandson to stand in front of me & the BMTman to see too.
Mr t__:^)
Best part of the whole ride next to the tunnel are those two 90 degree curves somewhere in the Graham/Montrose area.
It really is a shame that morale has gone so low down here. I enjoyed my time going through what Zman enjoys even when grade timers were a lot slower then. Central Park West on an R10 was not only fun as a passenger but even more so in the pilots chair. Yesterday, the ACTO directed all field supervision to write up anything. They took three of my guys O/S on the B and D for improper announcements. Utter BULLS**T cost 3 conductors discipline and a day's pay. I used to like traveling but now I endorse otherwise. Keep it in mind if your operator seems a little slower then usual.
Our recent ride on the "B" speaks to that, i.e. the operator wanted to talk & give us a railfan kind of ride ... in a Hippo no less. He knew where all the "suits" and cameras were AND knew of one curve without timers where he could make the Hippo lean over as she spead thru it.
I've been very fortunate to meet a lot of very nice operators. My secret is: bring my grandson, show respect & be polite. Once they see you're not a foamer they usually open up. Each operator is different though, e.g. I'm remembering the one on the 1/9 who didn't open the door or talk to us the whole run, but while we were waiting for a signal just before 242nd Street he was playing peek-a-boo with my grandson.
Mr t__:^)
It's nice to know there are T/Os who enjoyed the R-10 joyride up CPW as much as railfans like myself. Those were the good old days, all right...
So it was YOU at the helm of #4399! What a rocket ride!
Simon and I thank you from the bottom of our hearts (and stomachs).
wayne
Sorry Wayne, but I had #4389 leaving 8th Avenue at 5:47 pm on Monday. You probably had one of the other "regulars".
You gotta love the combination of Slants and the Canarsie line. These two were made for each other. I've had some T/O's play it conservatively going through the 14th Street tube, others like to let it all hang out, charging the timers at 50MPH. I prefer the latter, especially if it's a Slant or an R40M.
wayne
I agree, Wayne!
BMTman
That ride we had last October was pretty good, too. Of course, we ended up doing BMT standard impressions as we started the uphill climb. Imitating the descending bull and pinion gear pitch the standards used to exhibit as they labored up that grade.
Say what you want, but I still associate the BMT standards with the L.
Great write up..kinda gives you the feel of the motorman..I've always just been a railfan (formerly known as buff) looking out of the front window..now I'll think twice about the motorman's experience..anyway I'll be checking for future postings..
FASCINATING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I would strongly encourage continuing on!!!!
Thanx.
Numbers 2 and 3 have already been posted.
Just click on "change display style/killfile" in the SubTalk lobby and ask for the prior few days posts and you'll get them.
Does anyone know of a web site with maps of NYC trolley routes ofr the period prior to WWII. I am more interested in outer-borough maps than Manhattan maps. Thanks.
I know a few exist, but I don't remember the addresses...mpk0, maybe this heading will attract more replies.
Try: for the BQT lines.
Was doing some railfanning with that BMTman from Brooklyn on Sunday.
Saw lots of tie/continous rail cars on Central Branch at Garden City. Bet those NIMBYs are upset about LIRR using that track for anything. Also saw that freight yard at the end, at Mitchel Field, is being taken up. Wonder where the circus will park next year ?
Also saw Engine 35 & other cars that they have parked across from LI Bus depot (two LIRR coaches, two hacks).
Mr t__:^)
On some discussion on reviving old ROWS, I have said that this one should be used fo passenger service as it was along time ago. I thought of using it as a way to get to Roosevelt Field, thus relieving car usage, or even extending to Nassau Community College area and making a station there for commuters at the school and the surrounding offices.
Was anything ever done with the old Roosevelt Raceway. I donn't get by there very often. The last time I was near there I think it showed partial demolition.
I've always considered that , Aquduct or Belmont Prime Domed Statium sites.
Highways , trains and transit.
Bring the Superbowl to Nu Yawk!
avid
Was anything ever done with the old Roosevelt Raceway. I donn't get by there very often. The last time I was near there I think it showed partial demolition.
Most of the area has been redeveloped for big-box retail. Target and Wally World are there, some others too. Part of the old grandstand structure still remains.
I would guess that the Engine #35 folks thought it would be a grand spot to run their steamer back & forth ... that is until the NIMBYs told them where to go ... I don't think THEY said Oyster Bay though.
Even where #35 is now, by the hangers, they had the potential to run it back & forth.
BTW, have you seen the RxR station that's a fire house now on the Central Branch ... the nice part is that they saved it as a RxR station, just added a big roll up door in the back to get the trucks in & out.
Mr t__:^)
There's a few industrial buildings behind the LIRR Central Branch in Garden City and was curious if anyone knew whether or not New York & Atlantic Railway made any regular/irregular deliveries to any of the businesses back there?
BMTman
So how are things with the subways and commuter rail with the snow?
Around 11am the snow really picked up here, with heavy, huge flakes.
It's been snowing quite briskly now, sticking to the roads and surfaces. About at least 2 inches in Sea Cliff so far.
3.5 inches on the ground as of 5:30pm in Sea Cliff. The roads are quite slushy. The sidewalks, forgettaboutit!!! Apparently most people in Sea Cliff don't know what a shovel is.
I'm sure gonna wish they never tore up those trolley tracks when I walk to get some chinese food later!
Greetings fellow railfans!! Now that they are in regular service does anyone know where I can get or view an updated service schedule for the R142/R142A trains?
There is no schedule since the testing is over and the cars are accepted for delivery. The schedule was for each of the test trains.
They do run on schedules but they can change. The pinstrip 142 can be seen M-F at Gun Hill Road at 13:28 going SB.
I have talked to several engineers and they say some trains relay at Jamaica and go to NY-Penn. These are the EMU's sitting at Hall tower outside Jamaica's track 8. They relay and then go to track 1 or 2, and then head into the main line to Penn. What was interesting was I stood at 153rd and archer to catch the Q84 bus today when I saw a Train relay. The eastbound end had its headlights on, along with the 2 head lights on top(what engineers call foglights). what was interesting was I saw the headlights and foglights on on the westbound end, but the engineer had them on still on the eastbound end as well! The Train had its headlights on at the same time on both ends!
Are those trains "in service" going to Penn, for connections from diesel lines like the Oyster Bay?
Just sa this on the Times websiteSYRACUSE, N.Y. (AP) -- An Amtrak passenger train ran into a freight train Monday, injuring 68 people, four critically.
In addition to those critically injured, an additional 11 of the injuries were considered serious, said Phil Politano, spokesman for Rural Metro Ambulance. And 53 people were ``walking wounded with bumps and bruises,'' said Tim Hall, the fire chief from the Syracuse suburb of Lyncourt.
Some of the victims were lying on stretchers near the tracks after the 11:50 a.m. crash. Politano said 31 people were taken to hospitals.
No cars derailed when the trains crashed in an industrial area north of the city, said Robert Sullivan, a spokesman for CSX Corp.
The eastbound Amtrak train had just left the Syracuse station when it hit the back end of the CSX train, which was on the same set of tracks heading east, Sullivan said.
The 92-car CSX train was apparently moving slowly when it was struck, Sullivan said. Light snow was falling at the time of the accident.
There was no immediate comment from Amtrak.
Gotta love Amtrak. How on earth does an Amtrak train manage to do this.
Oh yeah, that's right, no cab signals.
68 injuries - pretty much the whole train? So much for FRA safety standards.
Funny thing is, the LIRR's been cab signaled for half a century or so and hasn't had a major rear ender in about as long.
But we all know cab signalling is an expensive, uneeded, worthless thing.
Even still, how on earth does an Amtrak tran manage to rear end a freight train. They don't just pop up out of nowhere...
Cab signals might not have have made much of a differance. The collission occured at 5-10 mph which is well with in the 20 mph limit imposed by a Restricting cab signal aspect. There were 98 passengers and 4 crew on board. This accident is too bizzare for me to make further comment at this time, but I am sure that I'll disagree with whatever conclusions Phil makes.
Restricting is 15mph, I thought?
Anyway, 68 injured for a 10mph collision is pathetic. But then, the energy's gotta go *somewhere*. If it's not going into deforming the structure, it's going somewhere lse.
Restricted speed is 15 mph inside interlocking limits, 20 mph outside and you must be able to stop short of obstructions.
Also there weren't really 68 people injured. 54 of those didn't even need medical attention.
>Restricted speed is 15 mph inside interlocking limits, 20 mph outside and
> you must be able to stop short of obstructions.
Which, for whatever reason, this crew wasn't able to. I'm still at a loss as to how a train gets in the way of another like that, but it's not Slamtrak and Chemical Spill eXperts for nothing....
>Also there weren't really 68 people injured. 54 of those didn't even need
> medical attention.
And, 12 that did? On an Amtrak train? This isn't like the LIRR where there's 1,000 or so over 12 cars.
It'd be interesting to see how an M-series would do under the same conditions, but I bet you $5 that it a)wouldn't have hit the rear of the freight at the same speed, due to their superior braking ability (guess why...) and b) assuming the same passenger load, there would be less injury, assuming same interior layout, people standing / sitting, etc. Guess why, again.
You'd have more dammage to the cars though. But that's not really a Bad thing, as in an accident, it's better to dammage the equipment than people. That's why automobiles have "crumple zones" , and even relatively high speed accidents are surviveable today...
>Restricted speed is 15 mph inside interlocking limits, 20 mph outside and
> you must be able to stop short of obstructions.
Which, for whatever reason, this crew wasn't able to. I'm still at a loss as to how a train gets in the way of another like that, but it's not Slamtrak and Chemical Spill eXperts for nothing....
>Also there weren't really 68 people injured. 54 of those didn't even need
> medical attention.
And, 12 that did? On an Amtrak train? This isn't like the LIRR where there's 1,000 or so over 12 cars.
It'd be interesting to see how an M-series would do under the same conditions, but I bet you $5 that it a)wouldn't have hit the rear of the freight at the same speed, due to their superior braking ability (guess why...) and b) assuming the same passenger load, there would be less injury, assuming same interior layout, people standing / sitting, etc. Guess why, again.
You'd have more dammage to the cars though. But that's not really a Bad Thing (tm), as in an accident, it's better to dammage the equipment than people. That's why automobiles have "crumple zones" , and even relatively high speed accidents are surviveable today...
Next, you'll be asking for seat belts. Should Amtrak be required to install seat belts? Maybe little lights that go on above the seats whenever the engineer decides to take a nap?
Opinions?
It does seem rather unbelievable that a freight train would just appear out of nowhere. The National Weather Service did report that light snow was falling in the Syracuse area at the time of the crash, and those familiar with that area know that there can be patches of intense snowfall in certain areas. Still...
As far as the injury count goes, there were apparently 4 critical. As for the other 64, I'd imagine that some percentage of them are truly injured and that some percentage has realized that if you spring up, dust yourself off and pronounce "I'm OK!!!" you don't stand much of a chance of earning yourself a settlement check.
Didn't the LIRR have a rear-end collision at Lynbrook about 20 years ago (on the eastbound Long Beach track if I remember correctly -- both trains were empty). I don't know that it would be classified as major, though.
CG
I believe the LIRR had some sort of collision/bumper hit on the long beach branch, around the time the M-1s came on line. I think the cause was sliding due to a weed control agent on the tracks. In any case, it was a very low speed one. last major collision on the LIRR or MN I can recall was the early 80's one on the New Haven line where one empty train rear ended another at speed. I've never seen pics, but I hear it was messy, resulting in 1 or 2 deaths. Fortunately, it's the only data point on how the M series does in a major accident. If I'm lazy one of these days, I'll see if i can get the NTSB's report on it from them...
Just what Amtrak needs: another accident.
Another accident? When was the last big one? I don't think anyone has died on an Amtrak train due to a crash since 1997.
"I don't think anyone has died on an Amtrak train due to a crash since 1997."
1999 crash of the "City of New Orleans" at Bourbonnais, IL. Of course, that wasn't Amtrak's fault (damned impatient truck driver), but 11 Amtrak passengers died nonetheless.
That's the crash I was refering to. I thought that was in 1997. My bad.
Right now, I would rather Amtrak have no new negative publicity whatsoever, with its budget on the rocks and its flagship Acela's recent service entry late and well-publicized as such.
If Amtrak is squished, what's the alternative? Gray running mutt? They crash FAR more often with higher casualties ... and of course that great "bus game" ... "guess the psychosis of your seatmate." As long as there's Greyhound, Amtrak still has a shot at survival.
I saw video of the rear-ender and while the toilet in the cab will need adjusting, it looks like the collision was well under 5 MPH. The F-40 definitely needs a nose job though.
well under 5 MPH. The F-40 definitely needs a nose job though.
The F-40's itsn't going to get it. That locomotive just opted for early retirement. The F40 replacements are already being delivered so this just makes the retirement selection process that much easier.
Heh. Wonder if Branford or TMNY needs a loco ... talked to one of my buddies over in Rensselaer and word is there was no frame damage at all, impact speed WAS under 5MPH ... CSX apparently did NOT have a flasher on the end of the freight and for reasons unknown, the signals indicated that that particular block was NOT occupied. NTSB is already there. I'd say CSX has some 'splaining to do, Lucy ...
You're telling me there was a FALSE CLEAR?!?!?!
That's the chatter on the pipe at the moment. Not a false clear - that's the land of the dwarfs out there - but it was allegedly YELLOW and not RED or may have been entirely absent. I've seen situations where a red ball has appeared to be yellow owing to sunlight hitting it the wrong way but the sun wasn't out in Syracuse. And only light snow. I assume there will be more on this but the guys in the Rensselaer barn are wondering how it could have happened as well. A good argument for cab signalling if the signal problem was a visual rather than electrical one. It's not like the dwarf was buried in snow though.
Well a single Yellow light on a dwarf means a RESTRICTING aspect. If the CSX didn't have a flasher and with the falling snow the Amtrak train might have simply missed the tail end untill it was to late.
Yep ... agreed ... but all I'm hearing is the usual chatter, certainly nothing I would take as FACT ... that's what NTSB is for and that'll take a while. Restricting is the maximum aspect displayed there until you hit the homeball east of there ... it was just outside the SYR station where it happened right along the thruway ... but ya gotta wonder how the eastbound got into the block in the first place just the same. And also why they didn't just switch the Amtrak onto the adjacent track to run around the freight ... plenty of interlocking there, no waiting ...
Actually, 18 F40's (numbered 350 and up) belonging to the Intercity CBU are being/to be cherry-picked and rebuilt for continued service. That 18 number was scaled back from 23 when they expanded the current Genesis order. They all run out of Chicago. The ones now in the Empire Corridor and north of New Haven aren't among them.
I am surprised an F40 was on that train. Normally the Maple Leaf is the only F40 assigned out of Albany as the VIA Rail crews aren't qualified on the Genesis, although they are on the Dash-8's, which run out of Chicago on the International.
This is the Chicago line where it occurred and definitely an F-40 - I'd know that nose anywhere and we had pictures of the wreck here on the local Albany stations since the Syracuse stations have a cooperative news coverage arrangement with their own network affils here in Smallbany ... I guess the toilet's gone on that one. :)
Absolutely! I prefer Amtrak to Greyhound wherever their lines coincide. Even the tightest of Amfleet I coach seats are much preferable what Greyhound offers. I was just stating the not very favorable press AMtrak has received in recent months.
>If Amtrak is squished, what's the alternative? Gray running mutt?
How about the free market running rail, where it makes sense?
Back in 1972 the free market determined that rail didn't make sence anywhere. It's still true today unless I am mistaken that all passenger services require a subsudy.
"Back in 1972 the free market determined that rail didn't make sence anywhere. It's still true today unless I am mistaken that all passenger services require a subsudy."
not as much of a subsudy as roads have
Hell ... the roads are nothing compared to the airline subsidies these days and THEY can't turn much of a profit. If the feds were willing to give ME equivalency for route miles as they do for the airlines, I'd be happy to take NEC and run Shinsanken on there, laughing all the way to the bank.
But alas, without $45 per trip per carried passenger, nobody's going to be breaking down the door to run a railroad. That's why the whole world over, they're either run by government or contracted out to others by government. Ain't no money in an obsolete form of transportation - that's why this is.
And in relating this to the airline situation, make all railroad right of ways absolutely tax exempt everywhere, and then you might see some private industry take up NEC service while all other lines were abandoned outright. Many studies have been done on this and the conclusions are all the same - the NEC might break even, all other lines would die within weeks.
NTSB spokesman says the engineer misread the signal. AP story in Wednesday's Times.
I am looking to put together a regional transit information site. Any ideas on special features that I should consider?
What region?
My last few posts in response to the "Electric Buses are Junk" thread might seem to contradict each other, so before you start putting too much faith in my opinion (since all great books contradict each other - look at the Bible) let me dispell any myths that I might be smarter than I look by expressing my opinion on each of the modes and what they're good for.
BUS, DIESEL/CNG: Diesel has better acceleration, while CNG isn't nearly as stinky. As far as I'm concerned, it's a toss of the dice. The diesel or CNG bus can be adapted to virtually anywhere and as such should be the mode of choice in Suburban areas. Routing will change frequently in suburban areas as new shopping centers, employment centers, etc spring up and the kind of transport that is needed is one which can adapt to these changes easily. It is also the best choice for low-ridership corridors in cities - as maintaining the trolley infrastructure is not worth the ridership. Seattle uses this approach. Up on the top of Captiol hill, the packed 7/9 route uses Trolley wire. At the foot of the hill, the 70, 72, 73, etc routes use Trolley wire. ANd halfway up the hill is the #25, a little-used route that runs on Diesel every 30-60 minutes. Why? No one rides it, so it's not worht the wire.
BUS, ELECTRIC: Electric buses are a reliable and speedy option to diesel on established corridors in cities, and they're the ONLY way to go when you've got hills thrown into the mix. Forget anything that runs on rails - if you're dealing with grades over 5% it's not a good idea and over 9% is impossible. Diesel and CNG buses have to gear way down to head up steep grades. You crawl up the hill at 10-15mph watching cars pass you - it's not a fun experience. Trolleybuses are way overpowered, which makes them EXCELLENT for hills. In Seattle you best be sitting down, because it's gonna be a tough time holding onto the handrail while bouncing and swaying as you zoom up the 20% grade on Queen Anne hill at over 40mph. Don't worry about lane-changing. Seattle-style trolley wires (the best there are) are installed directly over the stripes BETWEEN lanes making either one usable. Six-lane and up streets are virtually nonexistent anywhere around here so that's no big deal. If you've got hills then you need trolleys. Those little electric buses HAUL @$$ and I've never been able to be a standee without holding the rails with both hands.
STREETCAR: Established corridors, flat terrain. What do I mean by streetcar? I mean a LRV that operates primarily in mixed traffic, perhaps with seperate lanes in congested areas. Stops are around every 1/4 mile. Portland Streetcar is a prime example of what I mean. It's simply the nicest and best option for a flat corridor, and it looks cool too. Streetcar really isn't adapted to suburban life but for in-city routes it's the only way to go (assuming, of course, you don't have hills).
COMMUTER RAIL: When there's a freight line, that's it. Trying to build even a short new segment of commuter line is prohibitively expensive and disruptive, and there's no more obtrusive form of transport than a smelly, loud throbbing diesel-pulled commuter train rumbling along. BUT where there's a track, there's a way - and widening existing mains to accomodate more trains is perfectly acceptable.
HEAVY RAIL: As far as I'm concerned, the only practical use for heavy rail in this day and age is for expansion of existing systems. Cities that already have heavy rail systems (like NYC or SF with the BART) should keep on building it because they already have such a significant investment in it.
LIGHT RAIL: Light Rail is appropriate in the few cases where it is less expensive than monorail, or where monorail's elevated guideway would negatively affect the atmosphere of an area. Portland is a great example. The Westside line had an old railroad grade for almost its entire length, and converting this to light rail was the obvious and easy choice. Even with the West Hills tunnel (pret-E expensive) AND the freeway running, the Westside MAX still emerged with an average cost of 48 million a mile. In honest terms, this is about equal to a bare-bones monorail system - the tunnel would have cost the same if it was a monorail tunnel, thus making light rail cheaper than monoaril. Likewise, Portland's downtown plans call for all interaction to occur at street-level and thus anything that's elevated or underground would not be condusive to this goal.
MONORAIL: Just about EVERY urban-suburban medium and long haul route in existence. Monorail is incredibly versatile. Forget property aquisition - if you have to make a long curve monorail guideway just goes right over the top of buildings (the German auto repair shop is under a curve on our Seattle monorail and it works just great). Monorail's relatively narrow surface space (concrete piers that are 4-6 feet wide at the bottom) means it can drop into the median of most any existing freeway without having to rebuild any overpasses, interchanges, or anything else. Of course monorail can use subway tunnels too. Monorail is infinitely cheaper than elevated heavy rail and in many cases is cheaper than light rail, due to the high property aquisition costs associated with adding a 28-foot-wide swath of ROW (plus platforms) to an existing urban system. Monorail beams are unobstrusive compared to elevated heavy rail or elevated light rail. And last of all? Monorail is COOL. Light Rail bears more resemblance to Mr. Rogers' Trolley than anything else, while Monorail is straight out of the Jetsons. I'd say, until we invent cars that fold up into suitcases, I'll go with monorail.
-----------------------------------------------
THE MORAL OF THE STORY
-----------------------------------------------
All modes of transport have their place, but...
MONORAIL KICKS @$$
besides Monorails.org, there's also the Elevated Transportation Company's website. They're the people who are going to give Seattle our monorail. Elevated.org. Go check it out. Also try monorail.org, the citizen's advocacy group that calls for more monorails in SEattle.
Monorails are ugly and they're not real trains. They're good for Disney World.
They're good for Disney World.
Unfortunately, Walt Disney thought he was doing a GOOD thing by installing monorails at his parks. Instead, he gave them a connotation of being amusement-park-only, at least in the U.S. Transit monorails are in operation all over the world. I have nothing against LRT or heavy rail where appropriate, but you tell me: In a given corridor (not overall), if a monorail would be cheaper and faster than why not?
"In a given corridor (not overall), if a monorail would be cheaper and faster than why not?"
NIMBYs what is the difference between a monorail and an el anyway?
That's a good question. Is a monorail necessarily rubber-wheeled like the MTL metro? Is that what makes it quieter than an el? Or is it the single concrete column as oppeosed to a steel cage over the street?
It's both. Monorail is just a whoosh. Most residents along 5th avenue (several apartment buildings) say they can hear it with their windows open, they can't with them closed. Another big pro of monorail is that it doesn't cast a dark shadow on the earth below. You're looking at two relatively low-profile concrete beams supported by a single pier as opposed to a huge "steel cage" as you described it. Not to dis an els - I think they're hella fun to ride and most have historic value, but in terms of new construction...
I can attest that monorails are quiet. At Disney, we stayed in the Contemporary (the hotel with the Monorail in it). If you weren't looking, they'd sneak up on you.
Forget property aquisition - if you have to make a long curve monorail guideway just goes right over the top of buildings (the German auto repair shop is under a curve on our Seattle monorail and it works just great).
But you still have to compensate property owners for their lost airspace, which is not free for the taking. And in a large city, the buildings are likely to be taller than the monorail, so it can't make huge-radius turns over the buildings themselves, unless maybe it went through them, like in DisneyWorld.
If monorails are so great, and the technology isn't that new, why is there only one system in the U.S.?
Because since they are cheaper and require less maintenance, companies won't make any money off of them. So they lobby the politicans to block them from being built. Houston's citizens voted 5 to 1 for a monorail, but the politicans there decided aganist it. What kind of bullshit is that?
I thought Houstonians liked living in one of the largest cities on Earth with no rail. So it's a big conspiracy then?
>>>I thought Houstonians liked living in one of the largest cities on Earth with no rail. So it's a big conspiracy then?<<<
No, that's just the politicians. We were this close to getting a small light rail line, but that was too much for Rob Todd of the Brat Pack fame. He and his army of lawyers got a judge to file an injunction and block the building of the rail line! We had the permission of the FREAKIN' city council and one prettyboy councilman can derail all of that! I hate this city!
(We had the permission of the FREAKIN' city council and one prettyboy councilman can derail all of that! I hate this city!)
Gee, that's exactly the sort of thing that happens in NYC, where one LAWYER can derail almost ANYTHING.
Lawyers only represent their clients.
Actually there is some conspiracy involved.
ALWEG, the company that invented the straddle-beam monorail in the 50s (all monorails before that were suspended), offered to build a monorail system for L.A. on a DBOM basis. Alweg would build it with their money, operate it, and once they had made a handsome profit they'd turn it over to Los Angeles. The L.A. politicians were hip to the idea until Standard Oil (everyone's favorite transit advocate) persauded them against it.
The reason there's no monorail in the US is because the technology came around in the 50s and 60s, when the automakers and oil companies practically had a monopoly on the transportation system in this country. Notice that with a couple of exceptions, NO new transit was built in this period. Futuristic monorail fell victim to the same forces that killed the old-fashioned streetcar. By the time transit ideas started to resurface in the 1970s, ALWEG had gone out of business and there simply wasn't anybody left to promote monorails in this country.
I understand there is monorail in Bangkok. Perhaps the rolemodel of America's West.
Kinda simple. Monorails might be quiet, non-intrusive, and all the other plaudits, but.....They are hell to switch.
You have to shift the whole beam. Even powered (which few are), they take 3-4 seconds to shift position. That kind of slowness kills them for more than a single route line.
Monorail-After riding the Seattle monorail, I was thoroghly pleased with it. I went to monorails.org and it convinced me that they are way better than light rail.
Heavy rail-It would be practical for more cities to build subways, but all the cities without them aren't really big enough for them. That brings up the point that you should get 'em while they are young. If subways were built in cities like Denver or Houston now, they would have a head start on the ridership base for when those cities really start to get big enough for them.
Light rail-After I converted to monorails, light rail really sucks. It might be good to have for travel between sort of dense nieghborhoods, but then again monorails could do the same thing.
Monorails don't have the capacity of heavy rail, so they aren't the best in really big, really dense cities. Then again we aren't building too many of those.
I'm also not sure how well they'd handle winter storms.
And the stations and their access are difficult to build and site.
On the other hand, if you have a rapidly-growing sunbelt metropolis, with lots of new commercial buildings going up that could be intergrated into Monorail stations, then I agree it is a good solution.
Monorails don't have the capacity of heavy rail, so they aren't the best in really big, really dense cities. Then again we aren't building too many of those.
Actually, monorails could be as big and as long as you like - it's just no one has built any in the U.S. with that capacity. But there's no reason why you couldn't make a monorail train 10+ cars long, and since the monorail guideway is more stable then conventional rail (please don't try to tell me that two teeny flanges are more secure than a huge-ass concrete beam) they can seat 5 or even 6 people across. In other words, if you REALLY wanted to carry a TON of people than monorail is the only technology that could. You're only looking at what's already been done in the U.S...look at Japan, and then INNOVATE. There's no reason we can't build bigger and better monorails than previously were built.
I'm also not sure how well they'd handle winter storms.
Well, for an Alweg-style straddle beam monorail (the kind used by Disney and Seattle), you have to heat the concrete. But if you have a climate with really horrendous winter storms (like NYC) then you might try the Safege system. It's a suspended monorail, with the bogies (you would call them trucks on a conventional train) running inside the beam. The first monorail to use this technology was in Shonan, Japan. Go here: http://monorails.org/tMspages/Shonan.html
You're very convincing, and I'm cautiously optimistic, however I find that overallegiance to any one particular mode of transit can be detrimental to the cause as a whole. Don't get me wrong, I loved Disney's monorail growing up, but never having ridden a succesful monorail transit system, I still have my doubts. But then every city is different, and I've never been to Seattle. I was living in Istnabul as they constructed their first heavy rail subway, which everyone had always said could never be done: both for the severe earthquakes, and for the archeological Pandora's Box of tunnelling through a city founded BC, and the capital of three empires. It took forever, but the first segment finally opened. Now they're entering the really old downtown, so I expect it could take a decade or more. Perhaps a monorail... but then it's way too dense for a monorail.
I actually like the other modes too - remember that my handle is spunky of LIGHT RAIL fame. It's just most people here already have seen heavy rail and light rail and know they work. I think that every mode has it's place, but it seems like most people are very unwilling to give monorail a try.
Monorail is basicslly a futuristic "el". It won't fit where people don't want to have an elevated structure darkening the sky.
IMHO electric buses are the way to go in most areas. For shorter routes with frequent trips a wire based system would do nicely. For more remote areas and less frequent trips battery powered buses would be ideal. These can be charged up using high powered chargers at the end of each route while the driver takes a break. A good charge could be done in a matter of minutes.
I would be in favor of monorails in densely traveled corridors. They don't have as much of a footprint on the land. I have not ridden one in many years but when I did I enjoyed it very much. I think it would do well on routes that don't get enough traffic to justify heavy rail.
I believe that most modes of public transportation should be electrified. I won't go into all the reasons here. In my own personal experience riding in electrified equipment was much more enjoyable. There's much better acceleration and no smoke.
As for something with high speed, conventional steel wheels on rails is best, electrically powered of course. The French and Japanese are experts at this. The ideal route is Los Angeles to Las Vegas, lots of open desert. It would take a lot of airplanes out of the sky. Los Angeles to San Francisco would be ideal too. Build at least a 1000MW powerplant dedicated to them.
As for here in Memphis, build the trolley line down Union Avenue, but past the medical center out to Cooper street. A monorail line down Poplar from Downtown to East Memphis (ridgeway and I-240) and possibly to Collierville would be ideal. I would want a monorail to the airport also. As for the buses, trolley wires on main roads such as Lamar Avenue, Jackson Ave, and Elvis Presley, and battery powered buses everywhere else.
Regards from my all electric powered and heated apartment in Memphis, A.K. Howard.
Because they use the engine more efficiently, they burn a LOT less fuel and are therefore not as "smelly" (besides, new busses have better emmissions control). Because they use electric motors, they accelerate like trolley busses, but no wire, and no lack of versatility.
ALL diesel busses should be replaced with hybrids.
Hybrids are not new. The last fleet of Fifth Avenue Coach double deckers were gas-electric hybrids. Their acceleration was not remarkable.
And many of the 1930s buses were gasoline engines, generators
and electric motors too. But, they lacked the battery technology
of modern hybrid vehicles. The little combustion engine isn't
required to supply the _peak_ power demand, just the average (or
less than that if the vehicle is also being recharged wayside).
Acceleration can be made better than a straight diesel, but
probably not as good as a streetcar without a lot of wasteful
battery overcapacity.
Correct me, if I'm wrong.
Weren't battery powered buses and streetcars also tried and found lacking in acceleration performance?
Aren't batteries not particularly efficient at quick charge/discharge cycles?
The minimum charge time for a secondary battery that I've come across is 20 minutes and a charge rate of 4C, where C is the battery capacity in ampere-hours. They also have a lot of safety interlocks to prevent explosion on the charger and battery. Trickle charge rates are C/16 and C/4.
Exactly is this scheme supposed to work? At what rate will the diesel charge the battery - there's a 64x range. How long is the battery supposed to last without a charge in normal traffic. How many charge/discharge cycles are planned?
The hybrid seems too good to be true. Taking two technological lemons - diesel and battery power and coming up with with a winner. Of course, NYCT had to come up with some story for continuing to buy polluting diesel buses.
Exactly is this scheme supposed to work? At what rate will the diesel charge the battery - there's a 64x
range. How long is the battery supposed to last without a charge in normal traffic. How many
charge/discharge cycles are planned?
Why are you asking me as if I designed, specified, recommended,
approved or purchased this? ( I think that covers all the
categories that would entitle me to a free subscription to
Hybrid Transit Today)
Battery technology has come a long way since the 1920s, which was
the last time these things were seriously tried. I believe it was
NY railways that ran battery cars on some crosstown routes, but
the batteries were swapped out with a fresh set at the end of
the run and charged offline.
A hybrid bus does not have to use diesel.
Not really. A young RTS bus was scrapped because it's Hybrid Drive System was shit. Does 1991 TMC RTS 8397 ring a bell?
One bus pollutes more than one car does of course, but the multitude of cars that are in the NYC area pollute more than the 5,000 or so buses. It'd actually make more sense to get rid of all the cars before you replace diesel buses. It wouldn't make sense finacially, but it would pollution wise. Besides, Hybrid, CNG, and LNG technology are nowhere near as reliable as good old diesel technology.
Besides, Hybrid, CNG, and LNG technology are nowhere near as reliable as good old diesel technology.
How so?
The main problem I've noticed with the crop of hybrids currently in use by the TA is the low capacity caused by the low floor design. However, that is a function of the vehicle design, not the propulsion system.
Does anyone know how hybrid bus propulsion is different from the diesel-electric RR loco, apart from the size of the components?
Does the locomotive have a battery to store power, and then drain it when it needs extra power (such that the engine runs at constant speed)?
A long response to a long post.
There are two issues:
The first issue is monorail vs. elevated rail. Monorail advocates seem to be responding to the modern sleekness and great views from monorails. But both can be had with modern elevated rail. The Airtrain, for example. Monorail advocates rightfully dismiss bulky el design, but that style is out of date. One of the most influential new transit system in the world is the Vancouver Skytrain in Canada. This terrific new aerial line has the sleekness and the views, and is also automated. Frequencies can be increased without increasing labor costs; as a result, the system runs about every 5 minutes with short trainsets. But because it is on rail instead of a beam, monorail advocates ignore it.
While there isn’t a unique advantage to monorail over elevated rail, there are unique disadvantages. One is switching. Rail systems can move from one track to another relatively easily by quickly moving a piece of metal. Monorails require an entire concrete beam section to be moved. It can be done, but with difficulty, and usually at the end of the line. As a result, most monorails are single lines, instead of networks. Another disadvantage is speed. I’ve been on several monorails in Japan and elsewhere, and they all seem to peak at about 35mph. It is difficult to keep a slab of concrete smooth and even. Rail, on the other hand, can handle higher speeds, as bullet trains ultimately demonstrate.
The second issue is elevated vs. surface or subway. The basic rule of thumb is that elevated lines cost 3x more than a surface line. Monorail advocates say that the beams are not that much more than rails at grade, maybe cheaper where there are utility relocations required for the surface line. True, but it is the stations that rack up the costs. Instead of using the sidewalk as a station, elevated lines need large platforms built above the ground with escalators and elevators etc. for each elevated station.
Often there are unacceptable visual conflicts for elevated systems as well. In Japan for example, many stations extend from building face to building face, completely dominating a street. In Chicago, the L stations are also dominating. But that city grew around the system and the loop is part of the city’s character. It is unlikely Chicago or any other city will build els, historic or modern style, in their downtown again. Chicago’s two more recent downtown lines are subways. Vancouver’s Skytrain goes into a short subway section downtown.
The other rule of thumb is subways cost 3x more than an elevated line. This is where elevated lines make sense: where surface lines have unacceptable conflicts. Car lovin Orange County appears to be ready to build a rail transit system, one that won’t interfere with their beloved roads. Finally, transit comes to Disneyland! But instead of a monorail, the plan is to build a surface and elevated light rail. Monorail is less flexible (running it at grade with traffic for any stretch isn’t possible) and much more expensive. There is no “downtown” for the elevated sections to clutter up.
Having said all that, there is a place for monorail. In Las Vegas for example. There, several adjacent hotels got a deal on surplus Disney equipment and built a short monorail. They are now doing a major expansion of the line to other hotels and the convention center. It makes sense to be elevated because of the land costs and road conflicts. Elevated is visually ok because it won’t run down the Strip, but behind the casinos. And monorail fits because it is the technology of the starter line.
The problem is that most monorail advocates are passionate and dismiss all other technologies. It is like insisting on using just a 5 wood to go golfing. It is great to use in unique circumstances, but you really don’t want to chip or putt or do much else with it.
Excellent response.
I just returned to New York from a visit to Los Angeles. Both the extended Metro Red Line and the two new "Metro Rapid" bus routes (720-Wilshire/Whittier Blvds and 750-Ventura Blvd) seemed to be doing a very brisk business, even on weekends.
The "Rapids" were implemented as a way to achieve (or try to achieve) some form of rapid transit with buses, in this case low-floor CNG buses. The "Rapid" buses have transponders that can tinker with traffic signals, thus giving them a distinct running time advantage over the local routes serving the same corridors (18-Whittier Blvd/6th St, 20/21-Wilshire Blvd, 150-Ventura Blvd, and 240-Ventura/Reseda Blvds).
I would love to see these CNG buses try to use the San Bernadino Freeway or the 405 going North to the Valley anytime after 2pm Weekdays.
Also, would be fun to see it crawl on Santa Monica between Bundy and Sepulveda. :)
Interesting concept. LA did have some success with the El Monte Busway (dedicated mass transit lane). Pitttsburgh has a dedicated busway which opened recently (I was on it riding the Port Authority airport express bus); ridership didn't look very high.
>>> the El Monte Busway (dedicated mass transit lane) <<<
You got the wrong information. There is no dedicated busway. This is a HOV (High Occupancy Vehicle) lane open to both busses and autos with multiple occupants (car pools) running along a freeway. This was the only HOV in the Los Angeles area that required a minimum of three occupants in a vehicle (except motorcycles). All the others require only two occupants.
Recently due to political pressure, the occupancy requirement was lowered to two, and the HOV became as clogged up during rush hours as the rest of the freeway just as the traffic engineers predicted.
Tom
Thanks for the correction. Truthfully, RTD should have bought and paid for it, so they wouldn't have had to share it with anybody.
>>> The "Rapid" buses have transponders that can tinker with traffic signals, thus giving them a distinct running time advantage over the local routes serving the same corridors. <<<
It is not just the transponders that give the advantage. The bus stops are at least a mile apart, and on the far side of intersections so the transponders which can extend a green signal up to ten seconds will do the most good.
The rapid bus routes are exactly where the Los Angeles subway should have run, if it hadn't been stopped by cost overruns and politics. Although the rapid bus is better than nothing, it is far behind a subway.
Tom
Maybe they learned something from the cost overruns of the LA subway.
Damn the expense, bring back the Pacific Electric in modern form. Considering the traffic problems and population in the long run it will pay off [if people will leave their cars home...had enough of driving yet?]
Is this one of these BRT (Bus Rapid Transit) variations on a local/express bus route ? Some of these BRT systems even have buses that look like LRVs, e.g. Eugene, OR
Mr t__:^)
5 people dead so far after a former employee opens fire at a Navistar plant in the Chicago suburb of Melrose Park. Chicago Tribune article.
How many more of these incidents will it take before we as a society finally pull our collective head out of our ass and realize how much evil and sickness lurks just under the surface of our happy little fantasy worlds? Now we'll get to listen to another month of knee-jerk responses from all the experts who pretend to have all the answers before they even know what questions they should be asking.
Sorry to sound so cynical, but if our society keeps heading down this track, somebody let me off at the next stop.
Happy New Millennium,
-- David
Chicago, IL
Dave, let's emigrate to Canada.
The "suburban" part is really beside the point. A nut is a nut, and I doubt that one's residency has much to do with propensity for violence.
I have a lot of my own ideas but can't say for a fact I now why the USA leads the Western world in homicides, by a huge margin. The last time I looked at a chart of comparisons. First was IIRC the Phillipines, second some African Country, the US was 3rd on a worldwide basis with double the rate of the next in line. Scandinavian countries didn't even make the list.And the list showed last in line only a small number.
Our murder statistics are nothing to be proud of.
"How many more of these incidents will it take before we as a society finally pull our collective head out of our ass and realize how much evil and sickness lurks just under the surface of our happy little fantasy worlds? ... Sorry to sound so cynical, but if our society keeps heading down this track, somebody let me off at the next stop."
People going nuts and killing those around them isn't NEW, it's as old as humankind. Somebody got it right when they said "there is nothing new under the sun." It SEEMS more prevalent now because it's brought to us instantaneously at our desk or living room chair by a dozen different media outlets.
For those who think this is some phenomenon of the "modern age,"
1) Just WHEN was this golden age when nobody was murderous or violent, nobody was insane, and every person respected his fellow man?
2) What makes the present society SO much worse than any time in the past? Compared to the depths of the Great Depression?! The "Wild West" era on the frontier?!
My favorite example of something that bursts this "good old days" mythos is a study that came out a couple of years ago where someone (grad school thesis?) analyzed the ledger books from the 1910s and '20s in which the Chicago Police Department recorded all death incidents, accident and homicide, that were reported to the police. The frequency and variety of incidents -- mothers killing their babies, stabbings over a few dollars, "road rage" shootings at the scene of car accidents, pushings by homeless people in front of L trains (to keep this on topic), etc. -- could be dropped wholesale into today's newspaper and nobody could tell the difference.
>> somebody let me off at the
next stop. <<
Willoughby, Next Stop, Willougnby
Twilight Zone episode in whivh stressed out ad exec "exits" train at station in his mind.
the COnn. Post and the Stamford Advocate printed an article where the state of Conn. wants to extend Shore Line East sewrvice to Stamford. Any one have any thoughts on this?
Also- MN wants more money from Conn. to buy more cars.
(the COnn. Post and the Stamford Advocate printed an article where the state of Conn. wants to extend Shore Line East sewrvice to Stamford. Any one have any thoughts on this?)
Connecticut's problem is that it has attracted a bunch of jobs, but zoned out housing for non-millionaires, in the Southwest Coast. So service employees have to commute in from miles away, and the only way to do it is jam-packed I-95. With dense development on both sides, the cost of expanding the road is inconceivable.
But there are some pockets of modestly-priced housing and normal people, up north near Waterbury, and out east near New London. The idea is to provide a decent commute to get them to work in Stamford, Westport, Norwalk and Greenwich, without having them actually move there. The can't think of any other way, so they created Shoreline East.
I guess the change in New Haven did not attract enough people.
But there are some pockets of modestly-priced housing and normal people, up north near Waterbury, and out east near New London. The idea is to provide a decent commute to get them to work in Stamford, Westport, Norwalk and Greenwich, without having them actually move there. The can't think of any other way, so they created Shoreline East.
I guess the change in New Haven did not attract enough people.
I fail to see that through service to Stamford will make any difference. LIRR commuters are famous for their refusal to change trains under any circumstances. Somehow, I doubt that the Shore Line East commuters would have quite the same objections.
As long as CT is paying for Shore Line East, why not extend Metro North trains to the RI border at CT's expense? I hate to see transfers necessitated only by political juristictions, such as SEPAT/NJT at Trenton.
It doesn't have to work like that. NJ Transit operates Metro-North service out of Hoboken. It's a matter of getting two agencies to sign a contract (and two governors to agree).
It dosen't become Metro North service until the train crosses the border. Trenton is a logical termination point with its yard facilities and traffic flows. SLE runs into New Haven because the diesel service facilities are there and not at Stamford.
Because that's outside of MNCR's obligations, which are to run the former commuter service from the Connecticut suburbs to NYC. Rhode Island is to much territory for a road that is meant to bring workers to New York.
-Hank
I believe that you are overly concerned with the history of MNCRR's origins. NJT goes to Port Jervis. It does that because it made more sense to set up a cooperative arrangement where it does the work and someone else pays than to have two different companies running trains on the same tracks and getting in each other's way.
As for service to Westerly, if there is enough demand for it, the responsible officials will have to decide how to meet that demand. If they agree that it makes more sense to expand the scope of MNCRR's mandate than to have CONNDOT run its own trains from Greenwich to Westerly, history won't get in the way.
THing is, what demand is there for cummters to go from Rhode Island to NYC? Non-existant would be my guess. It's usally more than 2 hours to New Haven. Nothing wrong with the existing setup. People east of New Haven aren't working in New York in great enough numbers to warrant such service. West-of-Hudson MNCR service is a different story altogether; once the Erie was put into Conrail, they ran the service. At the time Conrail left the commuter business, NY paid NJT to provide the service, just as ConnDOT pays MNCR. In both instances, the payer provides funds and equipment.
It's time to stop with the absurd plans. There's simply no reason for the pipe-dream service. If you want to have fantasies about new services, why make them where there is existing need, but no options, like SE Queens and Staten Island, instead of 'Extend MNCR to Rhode Island'
-Hank
[But there are some pockets of modestly-priced housing and normal people, up north near Waterbury, and out east near New London. The idea is to provide a decent commute to get them to work in Stamford, Westport, Norwalk and Greenwich, without having them actually move there. They can't think of any other way, so they created Shoreline East.]
If so, then why is there no through service from Waterbury to Norwalk or Stamford? Waterbury is much closer to Norwalk and Stamford. New London is nowhere near Norwalk or Stamford and would make for a very long commute if SLE were to be extended to western Fairfield County. I would think that SLE is more aimed at New Haven-bound commuters than those headed for Fairfield, Westchester or NYC.
On the other hand, service from Waterbury currently goes no further than Bridgeport and trains only run with two cars. It might be beneficial to commuters coming from the Naugatuck River Valley to have through service to Fairfield County. Westchester or NYC, well that might be pushing it.
"Any one have any thoughts on this?"
It's fine with me, as long as the trains don't clog up the lines, and I can still get a direct train from Westport to Grand Central (which should not be a problem).
"Also- MN wants more money from Conn. to buy more cars."
This would be a good idea....but the next order of trains should have a different design, unlike the M6s that were delivered in 1994. I realize that double-decker trains are out of the question due to low bridges, but perhaps a longer car with less side doors and more seats. I like one of the newer model trains on the harlem/hudson line that only has one set of doors in the middle, and doors on the ends of the cabs where passengers can safetly change cars. -Nick
85' is about the limit for car length. Longer than that, you run into more serious engineering issues.
And how many fewer doors would you want? Aren't two per car side enough?
-Hank
I understand that the new car designs, to be compliant with the Americans with Disabilities Act, will need somewhat wider doors, fewer seats (to allow wheelchair access), and larger toilets.
"I understand that the new car designs, to be compliant with the Americans with Disabilities Act, will need somewhat wider doors, fewer seats (to allow wheelchair access), and larger toilets."
The M6's from 1994 already were wheelchair accessable, including the bathrooms. All new haven line trains have a few handicap seats that pop up to make room for wheelchairs already. As for wider doors, thats a possibility...looks like I'll be standing again in the future! -Nick
"And how many fewer doors would you want? Aren't two per car side enough?"
I know it sounds strange, Hank...but when you have had to stand up on metro north on a crowded train those extra seats make a difference. And actually, with the trains that have one set of doors in the middle, they really have 3 sets of doors in total; a set on both ends of the train. More doors, more open space with no seats...I don't like that. -Nick
Actually, the middle door concept is a winner and could obviate the end side doors if wider than what we're used to now. The old Westchester did that trick and it was extremely efficient for getting geese on and off and winning four extra seat pairs. Nobody has to walk more than half the car length - trick is making the doors about 6 to 10 inches per panel wider than what we're used to now. But it would work nicely and has historically - that's why subway cars have center doors. They didn't always. :)
Thing is, the end doors are the vestibule doors, and there are no seats there to begin with. THe vestibule helps with the climate control, and the vestibule doors have the low-platform steps, unlike the center doors. And