YEAH HAPPY NEW YEAR TO EVERYONE, I WISH EVERYONE ON SUBTALK A HAPPY NEW YEAR, and GOOD LUCK IN 2001. LET THE SUBWAYS ROLL ON INTO THE NEW YEAR!
You Suck! I demand a re-clock! Hey, do you still want to come on our trip? Sorrt for mot getting to your e-mail in a timly fashion.
I hope everybody at SubTalk has a wonderful 2001 full of clear signals and free of delays. May all of your MetroCards be accepted on the first swipe.
HA, I was the first message of 2001. Beat that, I beat you by 28 seconds, HA HA! j/k
Christopher Rivera
Do you want to come on our trip?
Happy new year from the entire staff of
New York Area Railroads
(actually I am the entire stff, but what the hey)
I thank you all for visiting my site which has recieved 6,957 hits since July 1st, 2000 and I will improve it as time goes by.
Have a happy and prosperous New Year!
-Daniel C. Boyar :)
Happy New Year to all! May the new year bring great prosperity to all!
-cordially,
turnstiles
Tomorrow I am off to Union Hall to begin training for conductor. I will post details from what I encountered at this event.....
Train#1980Mike
Happy New Year to all. Be safe.
How about this idea?
Weekdays:
E-Qns Blvd Exp-53rd St
F-Qns Blvd Exp-63rd St-6th Ave
G-Qns Blvd Lcl-Crosstown
Q-Qns Blvd Exp-60th St-Broadway Exp
R-Qns Blvd Lcl-63rd St-Broadway Lcl
V-Qns Blvd Lcl-53rd St-6th Ave
Weekends:
E/F/G-Same as weekday
R-Local via 60th
Would you mind posting tph of your proposed plan or do you assume that QB line is made of rubber.
Arti
the E, F, and Q would be 9-10 tph, so can the G. Every week, I get on at Woodhaven Blvd at the beginning of PM rush, and there is so much time between trains on the local track, you can easily fit in another train. As for the express, you can lower the amount of Es a bit since I usually see two of them go by before an F at Roosevelt.
So, essentially all the services will be running 10 tph. This translates to 50 tph going into Manhattan, a net loss of 10 tph from the proposed routing scheme of an E, F, R and V each running at a nominal 15 tph.
would the R and V really run at 15tph. Personally, with the current R line, I could not imagine seeing an R every 4 minutes, and also see a new line run every 4 minutes.
I could not imagine seeing an R every 4 minutes, and also see a new line run every 4 minutes.
Is the prospect of not having to wait for a train so objectionable?
I'm not saying that I would rather wait for a train, but if an extra service, like the V is running, and it starts using up some of Jamaica's R46s, they'll have to take some away from all the others. It doesn't make sense for Queens Blvd riders to get trains into Manhattan every 1-2 minutes, and Crosstown riders to have to first make sure they are on a 53rd St train, and then to connect to what they want.
If you have two different 53rd St services, and esp when one serves the local stations on Queens Blvd. and Broadway, then I don't see how that is a problem. Passengers always should be aware of which train they're boarding, no matter where they get on the system.
Lets try this possibility, Have the G train go to and from smith 9th sts. to Parsons Archer ALL TIMES. Have both E & F trains go to 179th st. via EXP RUSH HOURS Have the R & V go to continental all times except for midnights. the E or F could go local during midnights. very simple the G would of course stay as a local. Only problem is what equipment R68/As?
You can't have the "G" go to Parsons/Archer at the present 10-11 minute headways (5-6 TPH). The mob scene would be catastrophic at Sutphin and Parsons Archer. You would have to increase "G" service markedly for your idea to work.
And increasing service on a line that doesn't directly serve Manhattan doesn't make sense.
-Hank
No one ever said to increase service on the "G", where did you get that idea from?
However, the residents of Greenpoint, Long Island City, Williamsburg, Bedford-Stuvysant, Cobble Hill, Boreum Hill, Vinegar Hill, Carroll Gardens, South Brooklyn and Red Hook would disagree with you.
Oh, and I didn't factor in the Queens communites that use the "G".
:)
You said that you wound need to increase service on the G to stretch the line to Parsons/Archer. Just page back a few lines in this thread.
-Hank
That reply was in response to the suggestion that the "G" run to Parsons/Archer, which wasn't my idea. I had said that if you were to run the "G" to Parsons/Archer, you would need to increase service.
I said for the "G" to properly serve Parsons/Archer, service obviously would have to be increased. My original idea was to run the "G" to 179.
Don't confuse the two ideas. My idea was to put the "G" to 179 at the same service level, not to run it to Parsons Archer under increased service.
What about all of those bus people at Parsons Blvd?
In order for this to work, you will reduce the number of trains which can cross into Manhattan, which was the whole point of the project. Most rush hour commuters at Jamaica Center are headed for Manhattan, some for Forest Hills' or LIC's commercial districts. They're not interested in a "G" train.
which is why the G should stop at Continental, and let the R keep going, which gives direct Manhattan service.
You're missing the point. The R already serves Manhattan. The purpose here is to increase total train frequency to Manhattan, which your idea would prevent.
Manhattan-bound Service before 63rd St Project service: 3 express trains (E, F,7-peak), 3 local (N,R, 7 local).
After "F" shifts to 63rd St and "V" is instituted: 3 express trains (same as above) and 4 locals (N,R, V and 7-local).
Again, running the G on the same track as the V and/or the R reduces the total number of trains you can run into Manhattan. That is why the V must remain clear of Queens Plaza.
But are they really going to increase service on the R, b/c right now the frequency of Rs is bad.
That depends on the public.
Why don't you show up to the public hearing and voice your concerns? You can even advocate for keeping the G train, and present your reasons. The MTA needs to hear from people.
The hearing on 63rd St Service is at:
Long Island City High School
14-30 Broadway, Long Island City, Queens
Closest subway stop: Broadway, N train.
Date and time: Tuesday, January 23, 2001, at 6PM
You can register to speak at the hearing until 7PM at the hearing itself, or send a letter requesting to register to:
Douglas Sussman
Deputy Director, Govt. and Community Relations
Metropolitan Transportation Authority
347 Madison Avenue
New York NY 10017
Telephone: (212) 878-7483
You can also send Mr. Sussman your written opinions about this plan, which will be included in the record for review. Even if you do that, you can (and should) still come to the hearing tospeak, and listen to others speak.
wouldn't it be better to have the R go to Parsons Archer and end the G at Continental?
Design capacity of the Queens Blvd. line is basicly 2 lines running express and two lines running local. The system can accomodate more service BUT there is a point where a single breakdown will paralyze things. The plan at hand takes the G out of the mix opening the local tracks for another local out of Manhattan. The E has to stay in 53rd St. (no other access to 8th Av.) and the R must stay in 60th St. to maintain local service from Queens Plaza. Moving the F to 63rd St. is feasible since the 6th Av local tracks feed both the 53rd St and 63rd St. Tunnels, but people are used to the F serving Queens Plaza. The Broadway Express Tracks are the best suited to a 63rd St. service since they are connected directly to 63rd St, and won't remix trains which separated back in Queens. Any other routing requires crossover moves which will delay service on Sixth Av, Broadway, or Queens Blvd (a no-no at rush hour).
Now there is this other factor called the Manhattan Bridge...
More people ride between QB and Manhattan during the rush hour than from QB to the crosstown all day. That's the justification.
You need more "E"s than "F"s with the addition of the "V" train because you will have 2 local trains serving the 6th Avenue line, and (if you cut the number of "E"s to 10), definitely not enough "E"s serving the 8th Avenue line. Remember the "E" is the train all commuters from Penn Station currently take to the 53rd St & Fifth Ave and 53rd/Lex stops. Running the "Q" into Queens would take up time needed by the "E" and "F" trains. If anything, run the "W" alternately to Ditmars and to 179th St, say maybe 5 TPH to each terminus. That would leave you with 14 "E"s and 11"F"s for the QB express line. Does QB need 3 local trains? How would you turn around both the "G" and "V" at Continental/71st during rush-hour withour creating a bottle-neck? I think that since "G" riders wil have free-transfer options to the "E","V" and now the "7" at Court Square, they should be happy.
I personally don't think the G should remain at Court Square. Court Square is not a proper terminal (just as Smith/9th is not either). John H. Delaney would turn in his grave if he could see what will become of once a key part of the original IND Crosstown Line. At the very least, maintain some element of service to Queens Blvd for the G. Here's how it might be done:
If 71st Avenue cannot handle the turnarounds from the G, run it to 179th, which has PLENTY of excess capacity for turnarounds. If the present G headways are kept (5-6 TPH, or an average frequency of every 10-11 minutes), I believe that R and V service can continue to operate on the Queens Blvd. corridor between Queens Plaza and 71st, without problems from the G, IF the G runs to 179. The timing must be exacting (keeping in mind the crossover the V must use east of Queens Plaza). The direct connection is saved.
Now, you might question about car shortages. According to the 10/99 car assignments (the most recent from Joe Korman's web site), you have the following spares:
SPARES:
R46: 88 AM, 128 PM
R68: 69 AM, 85 PM
R68A:32 AM & PM
R44: 66 AM & PM
R32: 104AM, 114 PM *
R40S:42 AM & PM
R40M:12 AM & PM
R38: 34 AM, 60 PM
R42: 56 AM & PM
As you can see, we have plenty of excess R units. Even taking into account cars undergoing SMS, which I doubt can be more than 30% of the spare car fleet, you still have a substantial number of spares available. On top of that, the R 143 order is a minimum of 200 units, and as I understand it, delivery should being shortly.
I am sorry, the "*" next to the R32 Spares was meant to tell you that some of the R32's are GE units assigned to Euclid/207. They still are spares nonetheless.
Al
Your idea does not address the fact thatoperating "G" service at Queens Plaza and points east reduces the frequency of "V" service (because they use the same track - you would have "V", "R" and "G" on the same track), which reduces the number of trains per hour the TA can send across the river to Manhattan. That is the whole point of this exercise.
If the TA, as part of the 63rd St project, had also enlarged the tunnel leading into Queens Plaza, and provided 6 tracks at Queens Plaza with the extra platforms (at lower level?) having a ramp to the crosstown line, then the "G" could operate to Queens Plaza on its own track and platform without interfering with "V" headways. But that would have added another $100-200 million to the project. And the "G" could still not travel east of Queens Plaza, because of the reasons stated above.
You can still put the "G" to 179, if they reduce the TPH from the present 5-6 to maybe 4 TPH. It would kill me to see a weekday train at 15 minute intervals, but it is a better choice than to turn trains at Court Square. I ride the "G" quite often, and the crowds coming into Queens from Northern Brooklyn warrant some other plan.
But each G train takes up a slot that a Manhattan-bound train could occupy. And since Manhattan is where the majority of the passengers are going, it makes more sense to do it the way the TA wants to do it now, than to satisfy a small group of people who use the G.
-Hank
Again, if the "G" is put on a reduced headway, it will not interfere with the "R" and "V" services. A "G" running 4 tph via IND local and turning at 179 will not interfere with the "R" and "V" services running from 71 to Queens Plaza.
In addition, this service plan does nothing to assist the passengers using the IND line EAST of 71st Avenue. Why doesn't the "V" or the "R" run to 179th, if the priority is Queens Blvd. passengers, as you state?
The priority is Manhattan passengers, not Queens Blvd passengers. The service pattern makes sense. Trains that run local from 179st-71ave run express from 71av to Manhattan. New local trains begin at 71ave. The trains that made 10 stops and are now full make 3 more stops, and go to their destinations. Empty trains make 10 more stops.
-Hank
"The priority is Manhattan passengers, not Queens Blvd passengers"
So by your logic, none of the Queens Blvd. passenegers count?
I like the plan exactly the way it is. It'd be nice if there were direct trains from my stop to school other than at night, but I'm not going to bitch and moan about it just because the MTA is doing something which doesn't help me. It's not that bad going 2 stops, crossing, and going 3 more.
Just to clear things up. The R143's will be assigned to the Canarsie Line (L) for CBTB testing. They should not be considered for use on Queens Blvd.
Shawn.
The entire order of at least 200 cars, with the option cars (another 200) will go to East New York???
Absolutely. The R143 will be exclusively used by the Eastern Division lines (J/L/M/Z).
Then the entire fleet or R40s, R40Ms, and R42s will be scrapped or transferred?
See manage a trois!
avid
The R-143s aren't replacing anything.
If they aren't replacing anything, and the fleet will go over 200 units, what is ENY going to do with the surplus MU cars?
By terminating the G at Court Square, the TA cuts 12 train operator and conductor jobs every weekday. And since the plan is to make the G a 24 hour OPTO line, that will eliminate a grand total of 36 C/R jobs every weekday.
Plus there will be fewer trains used which means greater maintenance savings.
Face it Italian Guy, since the people who live on the G line are unwilling to voice an objection to the plan and since the large majority of Greenpoint G line users transfer to the E/F anyway, the chances of the G still running to Queens Blvd are the same as the rebuilding of the Culver Shuttle. Zero.
How many of those jobs will go to the new V service? Not accounting for those?
How about the extra jobs for the double-service when the bridge goes down (yeah, I know it's temporary)?
How about the jobs from the nominal service increases soon to be enacted?
-Hank
My listing only takes into account the savings incurred by slashing G line service. By continuing G service into Forest Hills after the connector has opened, that is how many jobs would have to remain in addition to the V jobs that will be created. And to extend it to 179 St as the Italian Guy has suggested, those numbers would only inflate. And this would be for a service that would only hinder R/V line service.
Also the switchover of jobs from the G to the V would fall on the lap of the E line supt. who will officially become the E/V line supt.
In my opinion, the V line will have as many crews as the L line give or take a couple. Right now, the L line on the AM and PM tours uses 43 crews Monday-Friday, 32 on Saturday and 23 on Sunday.
Yes extend to 179, but cut service. I can't think of any other way to do it except the Court Square turnaround.
The are not unwilling, but unaware of the impending problem. None of the stations have posted any such community notice, or updates, in any language of the upcoming service plan changes.
With the logic of the service plan, one must wonder how 'service' can be used correctly.
Not true. I've seen posters on the buses, and several Queens Blvd stations. They've even got notices at Bronx stations on the 1/9! And with the change not occuring until August, there's no need for service change notices yet.
-Hank
There are no notices posted. I've been to 63rd Road, 67th Drive, Woodhaven Blvd. and Northern Blvd. stations yesterday alone, I only saw notices for E/F local G.O. routing. Nothing with regard to public hearings.
In addition, nothing on the public hearings on Greenpoint, Nassau Av., and all the Crosstown stations, except Bergen Street, where there were posters about the upcoming G.O. to turn G trains at Hoyt/Schemerhorn.
I don't like the idea of having 4 QB trains and 2 of them are 6th Avenue. There should be variety. All current lines are equally crowded all times. Also, 11 Fs isn't enough since it has to handle all the Culver line unless the V will help.
There is a variety. Of four Queens Blvd services involved in the 63rd St plan, two would serve 6 Av, one would serve 8 Av and one would serve Broadway - that's three different corridors.
And since 6th Ave is the most heavily-used (in terms of where people are going) it needs the extra service. THere's a graph below, that is likely from the late 80's, showing the relative loading on each line. If New Flyer thinks it's equal, s/he needs to get his/her prescription checked.
-Hank
All current lines are equally crowded all times.
Really?
ok
You need all those Es. The V will run with more tph than the G, and that "extra time" does not occur very often. In the AM rush, at its peak, there will often be 2 Rs, a G, and 2 more Rs, with hardly any breathing room.
What I think would be the best course of action would be to run the G to Court Sq during the rush, and other times to 71/Continental (or at least Queens Plaza, yes they can still turn trains there, obviously not during the rush since crossing from D2 to D1 requires blocking both express tracks).
The G to Continental during rush hour is not possible. To give you an idea on how strapped for cars Jamaica is during the AM rush, often Queensbound locals will be sent express to Continental because they have nothing to send out for a particular headway.
Anyone what "Subway Q & A" on Metro? They're running it all day today. Very entertaining. They're all over NYC on the subway asking people questions and doing funny things.
Yeah, I was watching some of it. It seems that they dont venture out of Manhattan that much. Only in a few cases such as:
1. On a 2 train heading to Flatbush. Trying to convince a girl to go on a date.
2. At 71-Continental. Complementing a girl on shoes.
3. At 161-YS on the 4. Trying to trade tickets.
4. Followed a Jamaican lady from the C train to the Q train to PP and then followed her home to Canarsie for jerk chicken.
5. One of the reporters was at Jay Street-MetroTech making station annoucements over the PA system.
6. Talking to token booth clerk at Utica Ave IND. Followed the clerk to Franklin Ave where they went into a pool hall.
These are all I can remember. Also they keep showing clips of the F and G at Smith/9 and the Franklin Shuttle.
Train#1981Mike
I'm been watching it on and off all day. I just wish that they had more questions about the actual train operations.
They had a scene inside the Track Geometry Car
Sorry, I think that show is LAME, they came up to me once on the D train a little while back and I told them to get lost.
Peace,
ANDEE
if you can get your hands on yesterdays sunday times section 11, the real estate section, there was a front page article with several pictures about the abandoned west side freight line...i was trying to put up a link to the nytimes website, but the article is already in their achives... the article continues onto a full page on page 6, with a large 1/3 of a page map of the existing structure and the names of the buildings that it connected to... there is also a black and white picture of a freight train running on ground level preceded by a flagman on a horse who was called a cowboy... i actually remember seeing that along 12th ave back maybe 40 years ago...
you maybe able to access the article through the new york public library free of charge....
This is a really long URL to it. It never asked me for a username and password or payment or anything. It does not include the map of the structure as you mentioned.
http://www.nytoday.com/scripts/editorial.dll?fromspage=re/RealEstate.htm&categoryid=&only=y&bfromind=18&eeid=3734865&eetype=article&render=y&ck=&ver=2.11
Shawn.
It works,but it might be easier just to
click.
Heypaul. There was also a similar piece on the Westside High Line organization in last week's VILLAGE VOICE.
The jest of the article was that the real estate moguls want to rip down the lines while the Westside group wants to either restore the tracks and use it as a lightrail operation, or replace the trackage with a paved roadway for bikers/roller bladers/skate-boarders and joggers.
Maybe those guys should seek out the aide of Bob Diamond and his Historic Railway Society?
BMTman
Anyone out there know how to get hold of Joe Testagrose, whose great pictures dot another part of this website? I'm interested in finding out if I can have a copy of two pictures he took for a tee shirt I want made up for me at our local shirt shop. If anyone knows how I can reach him or him me, please let me know.
According to the "about" section, his email is joet@nycsubway.org
That's an email forwarder, it should still work. Haven't talked to him in ages though...
-dave
I get email via my robby@nycsubway.org alias once in a while, when I reply does it still appear as the nycsubway.org address, or my primary one?
Well, that depends on what you put in your mail client software as your return address.
-dave
Joe Testagrose posts almost every day of the week in a a newsgroup:
alt.binaries.pictures.rail
I believe his e-mail address is:
joet1@worldnet.att.net
You might wanna go to the newsgroup and check for sure, though -- he usually posts a couple dozen rail shots every evening around 9 p.m. EST (6 p.m. PST is when they always show up).
Happy January everyone!
...MARTA's base fare is now $1.75, up $0.25 from $1.50.
Other fare media increases:
Weekend Transcard: was $8.00, now $9.00
Weekly: $12, now $13
Monthly: $45, now $52.50
roll of 20 tokens: $20, now $30
old person discount: $0.75, now $0.85
Student pass: now $10
University pass (U-pass): now $37
Read MARTA's justification. I think it's worth it.
How much are train/bus transfers? Or do you need a Transcard?
Transfers are free. You just press a transfer button at the turnstile to get a bus transfer, or ask for a bus or rail transfer when you get on a bus.
at the destinators club on yahoo, one of the members posted the following list of r44/46 roll sign readings and asked the meaning of the diamond and circles... did a diamond denote something other than rush hour service then?
1. White Airplane in Light Blue circle
2. A (White in Blue circle)
3. C (White in Blue circle)
4. H (White in Blue circle)
5. E (White in Blue circle)
6. F (White in Orange circle)
7. G (White in Light Green circle)
8. R (Black in Yellow circle)
9. S (Black in Yellow Circle)
10. W (Black in Yellow diamond)
11. N (Black in Yellow circle)
12. B (Black in Yellow circle)
13. D (Black in Yellow circle)
14. Q (Black in Yellow circle)
15. D (White in Orange circle)
16. Q (White in Orange circle)
17. B (White in Orange circle)
18. K (White in Blue circle)
19. S (White in Orange circle)
20. V (White in Orange circle)
21. M (White in Brown circle)
22. R (White in Brown diamond)
23. J (White in Brown circle)
24. Z (White in Brown circle)
25. L (White in Gray circle)
26. S (White in Gray circle)
27. Not In Service (Two line, "Not In" and "Service"
28. Special
29. Shuttle
All have a black background. 27, 28 and 29 are white lettering.
Does anybody know the difference for the circles and diamonds?
Those are the current sign readings. The was a rush hour special, and the was also originally planned to be a rush hour special from Astoria to Whitehall, when the goes over the bridge.
But the yellow diamond "W" will still run as rush hour line when they finish the MB repair work until 2004. So we should see the "W" run between Astoria & Whitehall St around 2004.
HAPPY NEW YEAR
My site has the same readings for R42 end signs!
Take a look.
Funny how the four back to back 8th Ave. blue signs spell the word "ACHE".
COOL! You have to do the R-30-38 (current) sign. I once had one, but couldn't do anything with it because it was so long (tried to unravel it from an attic to take a picture of the whole thing, but it was still taller than the 3 story house! So I sold it off at an ERA auction).
It pretty much follows the R-42 pattern, except that since it has the route information, it has alot of variants such as
B.(orange circle)..6th Av/West End
...................West End Shuttle
..(orange diamond).Wash Hts/6th Av/West End
...................Wash Hts/6th Av
..(yellow circle)..Broadway/West End
...................West End Shuttle
..(Yellow Diamond).Astoria/Bway/West End
Could somebody tell me what was the car equipment used on the old Rockaway Shuttle "H" line?
HAPPY NEW YEAR
Usually whatever ended up down there from the A and E lines - mostly R1/9's, occasional R10's over the duration. But largely whatever they had ...
At the end, in 1988 and 1989, the equipment on the "H" was GOH green R10s. The shuttle, which still runs today, and is marked "S" but from what I understand is officially known in NYCT as "H" (when it comes to picks, I would guess), is made up of at least three four-car sets of R44 equipment. One of these bunches is 5330-31-33-32.
wayne
My wish to get the SOAC set for this shuttle went down the tubes when they went to Kennibunkport mueseum. I would have loved to see that set boggie across the raunt just after the snow stopped , sending up a cloud of loose snow flakes in a dual vortex behind. The sweet sound of the weeping and wailing and knashing of teeth of the stahlworth fans of the slant 40s bemoaning their stint in the purgatory of slug-ish Canarsie line. Unique and picturesque, but a slugway. Thats the dream for today. Its almost as good as Viagra!
Mush! Mush! Mush you SOACs , Mush!
avid
R10's. Only once did I see anything else, and that was a train of R38's, pre GOH.
Ricohet MetroCard
went on sale today at 7am. I am grouping statiosn to save space.if A LINE IS NOT LISTED THE CARD IS NOT AVAILABLE ON THAT LINE
59--A,B,C,D,1,4,5,6,N,R
50-A,C,E
w 4- All
Broadway-Nassau/Fulton-2,3,4,5,A,C,J,M,Z
47-50--B,D,F,Q
34--B,D,F,Q,N,R,1,2,3,9
23--F,N,R,1,9,6
Broadway-Lafayette/Bleecker--6,D,F
53/5th--E,F
51/Lex--E,F,6
49-N,R
28--N,R,1,9,6
14--N,R,4,5,6,L,1,2,3,9
8--N,R
City Hall--N,R
Cortlandt--N,R,1,9
Whitehall-N,R
3 av--L
50--1,9
42--1,2,3,9,7,N,R,S
18--1,9
Chambers--1,9
Wall--2,3,4,5
Rector--N,R,1,9
S Ferry--1,9
Grand Central--4,5,6,7,S
33--6
Astor--6
Brooklyn Bridge--4,5,6,J,M,Z
Bowling Green--4,5
DISCLAIMER: A booth scheduled to get the cards might not get the cards and booths not listed may get the cards due to transfer of cards by supervision. Part-time booths at a listed station might not get thew cards. For best chances go to the main full-time booth.
typo- the card is a Ricochet MetroCard. No photos available-the bulletins never show us whatt he card looks like.
Also note--the SUbway Series promotion for MVMs has been **cancelled**
What is this new Metrocard? Is it like a "look on the back and win" or is it a Metrocard with different Terms of Use then the already exsisting cards?
Mike
"Mr Mass Transit" You know the rest lol
Now that it's a new year, I have some words of wisdom for all New Yorkers. Following them will make your lives happier. Disbelieve them at your risk:
1. There is no ironclad law of nature which says that it's impossible to expand transit systems. Other cities around the country are able to do so. New York can too.
2. You can put out a fire by smothering it with dirt. You cannot solve all social problems by smothering them with taxpayer money.
3. John Lindsay, advocate of the limousine liberal philosophy, died nearly broke, having to beg the city for a fake job just so he could get health insurance. Limousine liberalism is similarly bankrupt.
4. The Times is just a newspaper, a hopelessly ideological one at that. It is not a guide to life.
5. The Dodgers are perfectly happy in Los Angeles. They aren't coming back to Brooklyn.
6. All the whining about Census "undercounts" doesn't obscure the fact that the Sunbelt won and New York lost. Get used to it.
7. Coney Island will never again see its glory days of the 1950's. People today go to Disney World or Six Flags.
8. Old Penn Station is lost and gone forever.
9. Assuming that businesses will pay huge premiums to locate in New York because the city's full of art museums and symphony orchestras is less logical than believing in the Easter Bunny.
10. The world does not end at the Hudson River. Millions and millions of people have happy lives out there in the land of Interstates, single-family subdivisions and Wal-Marts.
11. Don't get too complacent about the city's low crime rate. Things can change, very quickly. Just one or two highly publicized incidents will change perceptions 180 degrees.
Geez, Pete, sounds like you don't like it here. You can always take advantage of national policy and follow your federal tax dollars elsewhere.
New York City and state government do provide a worse deal for those who aren't insiders than most places do. But the City itself is sufficiently superior to have overcome it, thus far. As for the rest of the country, all you have to do is catch a cold at watch some weekday television on UPN 9 and you'll NEVER want to go there.
Geez, Pete, sounds like you don't like it here. You can always take advantage of national policy and follow your federal tax dollars elsewhere.
New York City and state government do provide a worse deal for those who aren't insiders than most places do. But the City itself is sufficiently superior to have overcome it, thus far. As for the rest
of the country, all you have to do is catch a cold at watch some weekday television on UPN 9 and you'll NEVER want to go there.
As I'd said to Sea Beach Fred, I'm more or less stuck in New York. If I had no ties, and could relocate anywhere at will, Phoenix probably would be my first choice, although I'd consider Denver or Dallas as well. I've never been to any of them, but from what I've heard they sound like pretty terrific places.
Phoenix is a miserable, smog-bound city where very little green things grow, mostly desert sands, boulders and rocks, and hideous saguaro cactus growing even on people's front lawns. Don't be fooled by the old saw "It's dry heat" - when it's 116 degrees, you feel it, and it feels like a bloody oven. Just take a ride up Squaw Peak and gaze down on the brown miasma which envelops most everything below. No mass transit either, just a fleet of diesel-belching buses (they may be using CNG buses by now), trucks, and zillions of cars. It's like LA only worse - no ocean, just desert.
wayne
Gotta agee with Wayne. I've been out to Vegas where a friend and his wife relocated. They were pressing me to move out there. Sure, I loved the sun and the cool evenings -- BUT -- I told them that I'd die of boredum within two years of moving out there because there is very little to do out there if you're not into casinos. Also, I'd go bonkers w/o the beauty of the change in seasons. I love the weather of the northeast where we get a true smorgisbord (sp/) of weather conditions which makes it interesting.
Besides, Vegas doesn't know the meaning of "mass transit".
BMTman
I love the weather of the northeast where we get a true smorgisbord (sp/) of weather conditions which makes it interesting.
It also makes you appreciate the summer.
I can't stand heat, I run the air conditioner well into October and run the ceiling fan (since our only A/C is central) into December.
Lucky for me, most entertaining cities (New York, Boston, Chicago, et al.) are in the cold world.
Come on Pork! No one in their right mind can love the weather you guys are getting right now. Change is seasons is fine; I'm looking forward to spending some fall time in New England. However, when it gets five and zero and below that, well, I don't think anyone can like that. I don't miss those winters at all.
I love cold weather. The colder the better. Its just gotten to the point where my local lake froze and I can go walking out on it w/o falling through. Its above freezing today so I hope its still safe wo walk on it tonight. Its easier to warm up from cold weather than to cool down from hot weather. You just add layers and if that dosen't work you start exercising. Also its alot easier to build a fire than a central airconditioning system. Also when its cold you can boost your matabolism and you can eat everything you want and not get fat. I've turned the heat off in my room to further that goal.
Also, it's cheaper to run the heater, and the heating up process is faster than the A/C.
In the winter, I can turn off the climate control system (I set the program to 19 degress, it's only on when the actual temperature is lower than the desired temperature) at night because I have blankets and fall asleep before the temperature change at 2 AM. In the summer I have to set the A/C to 41 (opposite of the above) ALL THE TIME! And the summer is the time that I actually let the meter reader into the house.
All the snow we have on Long Island right now is absolutely beautiful. True last Saturday it was hard to get to work but I managed. It is worth it just to look at all the picture postcard scenery. And its really great to go outside with my 4 yr old son Arthur and play in the snow. And a couple of months ago the leaves on the trees were such beautiful colors while driving on the Northern State Pkway. Now the same trees are all snowy and beautiful.
These will be your son "Good old days", ain't life grand!
avid
Indeed. Right now I'm back in my beloved Livingston, MT where I called home for 13 years. About 3 weeks of bad hot weather, 3 weeks of bad cold weather but otherwise much like NYC normally the seasons aren't too extreme. Beautiful mountains too...great if you can make a living [IF!] and if you can stand high wind for much of the winter...every time a warm front comes in. Warm/hot all year...those who want the sunbelt can keep it.
As for Mr. Rosa's post: there's good and bad about every place. [Good riddance JVL too] When I visited mom for her last days lst March I almost thought "I cold live here again" but in reality I could never afford to again and still love the west too much . But I do wish I could ride the trains places instead of driving everywhere for one. I got to love the people in Chicago [then theres the L], San Fran is neat. But weighing everything if mostly for its size I still have to rate NYC as Number one. Almost anything you wish to do can be enjoyed, to pick up someone else thought there is the ocean; except for Seattle where else could you have something as beautiful as the Staten Island ferry at night, etc? Hope it never gets like it was when I left in 1977. Peple get used to what is around them and it gets overlooked easily. No place is perfect.
Big Ed: So you are a Westerner. I knew there was something about you that I liked. What I miss in New York is the subway, I'll be right up front with that. What I do not miss is the cold weather. I find it easier to cool off than warm up, so to me California is just fine.
Hmmm...wouldn't a nice 3 track el structure down Indian School Road be a nice touch....
I agree 100%. I was in Phoenix a couple years ago and the whole city is one giant parking lot interrupted by the occasional McDonald's or Wal-Mart store. On top of that, most of the people I met there seem about as authentic as their manicured lawns. But to each his own. (In all fairness, the rest of Arizona outside of Phoenix and Tucson is incredibly beautiful. If Oak Creek Canyon doesn't make a person believe in God, nothing will.)
As for Dallas, two hours at DFW Airport was about two hours too much of Texas for me.
New York certainly isn't perfect, and as a proud Chicagoan I've taken more than a few stabs at the Big Rotten Apple (mostly in good fun), but I still respect New York as a great city and I'd pick the South Bronx any day of the week over Phoenix.
Oh well... Grass is always greener on the other side of the fence, I guess.
-- David
Chicago, IL
As for Dallas, two hours at DFW Airport was about two hours too much of Texas for me.
How can you tell anything about a city - let alone a whole state - from a couple of hours at the airport?
Well, let's just say that my first impression of Texas would have been a lot better if they spent a little less money on cowboy boots and belt buckles and a little more money on some books and dental work. :-)
-- David
Chicago, IL
(Well, let's just say that my first impression of Texas would have been a lot better if they spent a little less money on cowboy
boots and belt buckles and a little more money on some books and dental work. :-))
WRONG. Thanks to the Census of Governments, I can now refute almost any misperception with authority. In FY 97, the people of Texas spent 5.11 percent of their income on taxes to support public education, well above the national average of 4.51. Georgia is also above average, with Arizona slightly below. This is the proper measure of education spending, because is accounts for the cost of living -- ie. New Jersey may spend more per pupil, but the higher cost of living (which correlates with higher incomes) means it has to in order to attract the same quality teachers.
How about the VAMPIRE STATE? I've got some good news and bad news. The good news is that overall New York's spending as a share of income is the same as Texas. The bad news is that whereas spending in Texas is relatively equal across the state, spending in New York is the second most unequal in the U.S. As a result, New York City's spending on public education would be 49 out of 50 states. Only Hawaii, where results are skewed by a large number of income earning retirees and expats relative to the number of children -- pays less.
There's one potential problem with your analysis: Texas has no income tax, unlike New York. The US as a whole figured out a long time ago that making everybody pay the same percentage of tax regardless of income places a disproportionate burden on the middle, lower-middle and lower income classes. Texas relies on consumption taxes, which are inherently regressive (greater burden on the poor). So in essence there is a transfer of wealth from poor to rich.
If schools in Texas are funded primarily by property taxes (and I don't live there, so I don't know that for a fact), then there would be an opportunity to partially corrct for the above inequity by assessing higher tax rates on wealthier properties - so long as a portion of those taxes went into a state fund to be redistributed to less wealthy areas. In general though, poorer areas tend to assess higher per-mil property taxes, so again the poor get screwed. The presence of a lottery to fund education only worsens that.
No, Larry, the proper way to measure education spending (or transit spending, or health care spending) is not purely by proportion of income. It is by proportion of income relative to wealth and to the poverty line. Additionally, the presence or absence of local resources should be considered. For example, the Beverly Hills school district, with many wealthy parents, ample property taxes and fund-raisers, in California, earns $750,000 a year in royalties from crude oil pumped from under the campus. The Compton School District, which is beset by poverty and gangs, has no such supplemental income.
It would be better to define what amount is needed to provide the lowest acceptable level of service in a particular state based on cost of living, then see how well a school district measures up to that. If they fall below, maybe the state needs to step in to address that.
Texas did fund its school systems for years almost wholly on the basis of local property taxes, which was challenged by a poor school district near San Antonio (Edgewood ISD) in the late 1980s. Back then, property- or oil-rich schools could be spending over $7,000 per pupil, while the poorest districts might only have a per-pupil spending rate of around $2,000. The courts told the Texas Legislature that had to change.
The Legislature, under then-governor Ann Richards, came up with what was dubbed the "Robin Hood" plan, in which a group of wealthy and poor school districts (usually two to eight) would be grouped together, with the richer schools transfering their property taxes directly to the poorer ones through these education districts. While it satisfied the Edgewood decision, many of the richer school districts sued, claiming the plan was unconstitutional because their districts were being taxed to pay for other district's kids. The court sided with those districts, and the plan was thrown back into the Texas Legislature's lap in 1997, after Bush became governor.
The plan Bush and the Democratic-controlled legislature came up with, and wihch is in use now, again pools property taxes, but with a difference -- Texas assumes all school districts will set a tax rate of at least $1.50 per $100 valuation in order to receive the maximum state funding. If richer school districts don't want to set their tax rates that high, then the assumption is, they don't need as much state aid, and don't get it.
It also allows a little flexibility on spending, in that richer schools can still spend more than poor schools, but there has to be a minimum per-pupil spending amount for every school district in the state. Not a perfect solution, but it worked well enough to avoid court challeges and get Bush re-elected in a landslide in 1998.
In FY 97, the people of Texas spent 5.11 percent of their income on taxes to support public education, well above the national average of 4.51.
I hope they saved their receipt. :-)
-- David
Chicago, IL
Phoenix is a miserable, smog-bound city where very little green things grow, mostly desert sands, boulders and rocks, and hideous saguaro cactus growing even on people's front lawns. Don't be fooled by the old saw "It's dry heat" - when it's 116 degrees, you feel it, and it feels like a bloody oven. Just take a ride up Squaw Peak and gaze down on the brown miasma which envelops most everything below. No mass transit either, just a fleet of diesel-belching buses (they may be using CNG buses by now), trucks, and zillions of cars. It's like LA only worse - no ocean, just desert.
Dunno ... Phoenix may not be perfect, but an awful lot of people are voting with their feet, so to speak. Its low cost of living and superb job market - two areas in which New York is obviously very deficient - must make up for other disadvantages.
By the way, while I'm not 100% sure, I believe that light rail is in the planning stages, hopefully there'll be some real transit before long.
"Its low cost of living and superb job market - two areas in which New York is obviously very deficient"
The Federal gov't taxes the northeast & midwest and subsidizes the mountain west.
It's interesting that high cost of living of something that you decry.
One has to afford high cost of living, and since I don't see as many abandoned buildings with FOR RENT signs in Manhattan, somebody wants to pay that, when they can easily afford to move. High cost of living definitely has a lot to do with market forces.
Hey Mr R40: When you knock LA, remember we have beautiful beaches and mountains with cool air-----only an hour from each other. It was 82 degrees today. What you say about Phoenix is your business, but I will not let you berate Metropolitan Los Angeles. The city itself does leave a lot to be desired, but Los Angeles is more than the city------A lot more.
Hey Mr R40: When you knock LA, remember we have beautiful beaches and mountains with cool air-----only an hour from each other. It was 82 degrees today. What you say about Phoenix is your business, but I will not let you berate Metropolitan Los Angeles. The city itself does leave a lot to be desired, but Los Angeles is more than the city------A lot more.
You should move to Atlanta. Thousands upon thousands of New Yorkers move here every year, primarily to the suburbs. It seems that no one who lives in Atlanta is from Atlanta. I hardly know anyone who was actually born in Georgia. Makes me wonder who these "rednecks" are that people think we are.
Think it's a fellow named John Rocker ... and we've got a #7 train waiting for a gap on him ...
Makes me wonder who these "rednecks" are that people think we are.
I don't call Atlantans Rednecks, I reserve those kinds of epithets for the baseball team.
Yeah, but in Atlanta the subway doors freeze shut on cold days. I heard that from someone on this board, someone in California!
LOL, I know. Also paper transfers fall apart in the rain.
(Thousands upon thousands of New Yorkers move here every year, primarily to the suburbs. It seems that no one who lives in Atlanta is from Atlanta. I hardly know anyone who was actually born in Georgia. Makes me wonder who these "rednecks" are that people think we are.)
This is a point often missed by those who assume that the country is becomming more conservative because conservative areas are growing. They are growing with migrants and immigrants, and thus their character is changing. New Yorkers aren't losing representation. They are represented in North Carolina and Georgia, where they now live.
I don't know what is meant by Redneck, but both North Carolina and Georgia are far more progressive -- in the sense of seeking ways to make government work better -- than New York. In New York small cliques of interests have grabbed power and won't let go -- they are fleecing and fleeing. Elections in NC and GA are competitive.
As for the real Redneck states, they aren't doing so well. Oklahoma and Mississippi lost a seat, Alabama and Tennesee are a long way from gaining one.
This is a point often missed by those who assume that the country is becomming more conservative because conservative areas are growing. They are growing with migrants and immigrants, and thus their character is changing. New Yorkers aren't losing representation. They are represented in North Carolina and Georgia, where they now live.
This begs the question: do New Yorkers who move to the Sunbelt remain liberal, or do they become more conservative (or liberatarian) in their new locations? I don't know the answer, although I do suspect that the typical relocating New Yorker is already less likely to be a liberal than his or her counterparts who remain behind.
1) Nearly impossible.
2) Very few NYC democrats believe that, and even if they do, they dare not say it publicly.
3) Even his obituaries state in kind words that he was more image than substance.
4) The don't even try to hide their liberal bias anymore.
5) Don't tell Howard Golden that.
6) No surprise here, we've been losing seats sice at least 1970.
7) See #5.
8) And it's demolition created (for better or worse) NYC's Landmarks Preservation laws.
9) No good liberal wants to hear that.
10) See #6
11) It all depends on the next mayor, not too comforting is it?
It all depends on the next mayor, not too comforting is it?
That mayor could be (of all people) Bernie Goetz. Now granted his handgun was licensed and he killed in self defense, but still...will it become illegal NOT to have a gun on the subway? -Nick
That mayor could be (of all people) Bernie Goetz. Now granted his handgun was licensed and he killed in self defense, but still...will it become illegal NOT to have a gun on the subway?
I would actually vote for him and send him a bribe campaign contribution.
I might consider myself a liberal from time to time (I'm really a radical libertarian, and I've already discussed that) but on the matter of gun control, I'm firmly in the right, along with a bunch of other things (like nearly all economic issues, that's what a libertarian is).
That mayor could be (of all people) Bernie Goetz. Now granted his handgun was licensed and he killed in self defense, but still...will it become illegal NOT to have a gun on the subway? -Nick
Accuracy Police ("You Have the Right to Post Silently") Time:
Goetz's gun was not licensed and he didn't kill anyone.
He attempted to get a license, but since he was mugged in the past, the police wouldn't give him one. One of the people he shot was permanently crippled, but noone died.
No political statements intended in above comments.
2) Sure you can. The amount of money needed just grows like 1/(1-x) where x is the % of the problem solved. You can do anything with enough money. For examples I cite the moon landing and the Q2.
4) The Times is a guide to life only if combined with the infinite wisdon of Ted Kopel each weekday night.
5) See #2. If NYC bought the Dodgers they would return.
8) See #2. If NYC dumped the stupid plans for the 2nd ave subway they could rebuild Penn Station. PENN STATION WILL RETURN!!!!!
10) From my point of view the world does end at the Hudson River. The only thing EAST of it is a bunch of soggy rats.
11) The incident will probably be the murder of 2 college students early in the morning of Jan 10th.
5) See #2. If NYC bought the Dodgers they would return.
no they would not! In order for a baseball team to move 2/3 of all owners have to approve it. There is no way baseball would let L.A. not have a baseball team. It is also agains leage rules to have a team move into the same city that a team already plays in. So unless the mets and yanks both go to jersey they won't move back.
Dan - big time Red Sox fan.
Ok, NYC could buy the team and either bribe the owners to move it or change the name. They could then get the Mets to change their name to the Dodgers and build the next stadium in Booklyn.
Why can't people in new york get over the fact that the dogers are gone? They left 43 years ago and half the people who want them back can't never saw them play in New York. Yu got the mets to replace the Dogers. In boston the braves moved away and we got no team to replace them. So what if they were the TEAM OF THE 90s People in boston Love the team we have win or losse unlike all of you yanks fans.
I'm not one of those people who thinks that the Dodgers should move back to Brooklyn.
I'm one of those people who thinks the NL/AL monopoly should be dissolved (yes, I know the Supreme Court ruled in favor of them).
Watch out for Steinbrenner. He seems determined to leave the Bronx. Whatever negative historical traits I have towards the Bronx and the Yankees, the Yankees belong in the Bronx. To see them playing in New Jersey is anathema to me. But both NY football teams play there, so it is not beyond the realm of possibility. I don't think the Mets would leave New York, though. Think if the Dodgers did return to NY if the Yankees went to Jersey. You'd have a helluva rivalry spring up between the Dodgers and Mets. It would be like the old Giant=Dodger rivalry of decades ago-----which I can tell you was the most rabid and vicious rivalry in all sports. And with Fox, you never know. I live in California but have never taken to the LA version of the Dodgers. I love my state, but I can tell you categorically that LA fans are the dumbest, least informed fans in all of baseball. They come in the 3rd, leave in the 7th, and eat all the time they're there. I wouldn't miss the Dodgers at all.
11) The incident will probably be the murder of 2 college students early in the morning of Jan 10th.
Where will you be at 3 AM? I'm told heypaul needs to make plans...
Slowly, slowly he turned... toward Niagara Falls...
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
The incident [that rekindles fear of crime in NYC] will probably be the murder of 2 college students early in the morning of Jan 10th.
Hmmm ... now that's being very specific. If there really is such a murder, expect a visit from NYPD detectives :-)
Seriously, it's sort of surprising that the Nicole Barrett brick attack did not do severe damage to the city's reputation. It got considerable nationwide publicity, featured an attractive girl-next-door victim, and was frighteningly random. Yet the whole incident seems to have blown over fairly quickly. I suppose one factor was the victim's refusal to blame the city, in fact she tried to move back to her apartment in Queens, though her lingering disabilities made that unworkable.
4. The Times is just a newspaper, a hopelessly ideological one at that. It is not a guide to life.
I got a 2001 New York Times Almanac for Christmas. I LOVE stats. I wanted specifically that one becasue it has subway stats. However, reading other things, like political stuff, they do tend to have a bias in it. Having bias in a newspaper is one thing, but having bias in an almanac is very unacceptable, whether I agree or not. Dan is right, they don't even try to hide it. Raw statistics shouldn't be biased what so ever.
What figures are they biased on?
I shouldn't have siad raw stats. They are biased on interperting them. It's really political stuff that you see it. For example, on page 259, talking about the Census:
...the Census Bureau sought to use statisical sampling methods to enumerate the hardest-to-count 10 percent of the population...Republicans in congress challenged the plan, fearing that an acturate count of the country's minority population would erode GOP numbers.
For someone reading this, it sounds like the Republicans do not want an accurate count and that statistical sampling will solve all the counting problems. They do not explain what it is. I personally don't know how statiscal sampling works. So all I see is that Repubicans are dishonest and they fear accuracy. If I were writing it, I would explain that statistical sampling has been considered and then go on to explain what it is. Let the reader decide if statistical sampling is a better way.
I love points 2,3 and 11. Just wait until a Democratic Mayor gets in! Crime will go through the roof, and Rudy G will once again become the Mayor in 2005. I think they elect a new one this year and in 2005.
I want Bill Clinton to run for Mayor. It would be a 4 year party.
Sounds more like a DEMOCRATIC party to me. :~O
Hillary would KILL him if he did, assuming she has intentions on running for president in 2004. Try to imagine the spin the Republicans would give the rest of the country about where their tax dollars would go if the Democratic presidental nominee's husband was mayor of New York. It might not be true, but it would be really effective.
She's not going to run for president in 2004. I think Al Gore is going to make a comeback. "Gore in 4" is a killer slogan.
She's not going to run for president in 2004. I think Al Gore is going to make a comeback. "Gore in 4" is a killer slogan.
I dunno if Gore will run again, but Hillary will not run for President until 2008 because she intends to fulfill her full senate term, which ends in 2006. But when the time comes, she may be running against Jeb Bush...if the nation doesn't blame him for the Florida fiasco. Look out though for a 3rd party candidate in 2004; Minnesota Governor Jesse Ventura. -Nick
Look out though for a 3rd party candidate in 2004; Minnesota Governor Jesse Ventura.
What a thought ...
Vice President, The Rock.
Secretary of State, Goldberg.
Chief of Staff, Mankind.
Don't laugh at Ventura. I certainly don't agree with all his positions, and he can be a bit TOO outspoken. (There IS a difference between not kissing voter ass and purposely pissing off large portions of the people with no benefit from it.) But from a rail & transit standpoint, he's pretty good. He actively shepherded Twin Cities light rail through a hostile legislature and has supported Minnesota's participation in the Midwest Regional Rail plan.
Minnesotans are not stupid. They were disenchanted with the two majors, Jesse is colorful, but no dummy. He tends to say what he feels, and the press still can't quite figure him out. He totally lacks the political habit of saying publicly neutral things for public consumption, which makes him exactly like 90% of the world.
He must have bought the Advanced Ronald Reagan Model of Teflon, 'cause he says things and does stuff that would crucify a normal politician and NOTHING sticks!!!
And, he supports RAIL!!!!
If the Vampire State had somebody like Jesse in Albany, NYC would have the Second Avenue Subway, the 42nd Street Light Rail would be a reality and the Long Island would be electrified everywhere.
The time for another Govonorship has arrived.......
Bill Clinton for NEW YORK STATE GOVERNOR!
Lets stay on the front page of every paper in the world and lets have a permenant segment of CNN >
avid
Bill Clinton for NEW YORK STATE GOVERNOR!
Won't it be hard for him to run the state from Sing Sing?
Don't worry, though...if you want a socialist leftist democrat in Albany, you won't have to look much farther than Cuomo-the-Lesser. He'll probably take up the cause next time 'round.
pjd
He'd be better than Guilliani!!!
He'd be better than Guilliani!!!
But only at sucking and being a crappy mayor.
[But only at sucking and being a crappy mayor.]
No one can even come close to Rudy in that respect.
No one can even come close to Rudy in that respect.
Of course nobody can, they're all far and away worse (or better, if we want to avoid double negatives).
1)Easy to say, hard to apply - though that's no excuse.
5)Let ehm stay there. there's too many people here as it is.
6)Sunbelt? Smogbelt sounds a little more appropriate.
7)People said that about Times Squaure. Now it IS disneyland.
8)Yes, and that's why they're converting the post office...
9)Heh... heheh... HAHAHA!
10)...and many of them people are married to their cousins, living in trailers.
11)Good. Maybe then we can shake some of the annoying tourists.
All in good fun:
The Joe
Without a healthy city core, a lot of suburbs start sucking turtle eggs. You may like it at first, but then you wonder why you ever bothered.
Land is not an inexhaustible commodity, and when markets and regulators appropriately assign costs to subdivisions reflecting what has been done to it, consumers everywhere will have a much more fair comparison of city vs. suburban living.
That looks like a list from Uncle Scrooge...
That looks like a list from Uncle Scrooge...
It's hard not to be Scrooge-like when it comes to New York.
I thought of a good analogy. New York (mainly the city, but the state to some extent) is like a person who is diabetic, with extremely high blood pressure, yet who is grossly overweight, gorges himself with junk food, drinks liquor like it's going out of style, and smokes three packs of Camels a day. In other words, slow suicide.
and smokes three packs of Camels a day.
Camels SUCK ever since they got rid of Joe Camel. Joe Camel's death is a direct result of pressure from "babysitter" governments.
BRING BACK JOE CAMEL!
If not as the cigarette product mascot, then as a children's cartoon(with cigarette firmly in mouth).
Camels SUCK ever since they got rid of Joe Camel. Joe Camel's death is a direct result of pressure from "babysitter" governments.
BRING BACK JOE CAMEL!
Wouldn't you prefer Henry Hog?
I'm afraid I have to object to your conservative indoctrination. I respect your opinions, but it is very, very arogant to call them "lessons for all New Yorkers".
2. No. Money isn't the be-all and end-all answer to all social problems. But you can't do much of anything about them without it. Education and other social services require competent and focussed management, but they also require money. Teachers and Social Workers provide vital and underappreciated serices to the public---and they can't live on tax cuts! Schools require books, and classrooms and teachers to reduce class size. Money money money. These things don't appear out of nowhere.
3. OK. So what if he was more vision than substance. Granted, we need doers, but we also need leaders who see the big picture, and who can see beyond pragmatic politics.
And I object to the term "limosine liberal"--Are you trying to say that liberals are sheltered and naiive? That is not your judgement to make--any more than I could make a judgement on your politics.
4. OK. The New York Times has a political bias. Show me a newspaper that hasn't! I get nauseous at the sheer one-sided propoganda the NEw York Post dishes out. At least the Times tells the whole story.
Andrew
Don't get too complacent about the city's low crime rate. Things can change, very quickly
While I do support mayor Giuliani, I certainly do not give him all the credit for the city's low crime rate at the moment. Take a look around people, crime is down in the entire country...and no, I'm not giving Bubba credit for that either. Crime is low because the # of males age 18-25 is at its lowest rate in decades....once that # increases, we'll be watching out for ourselves even more. -Nick
Crime is low because the # of males age 18-25 is at its lowest rate in decades....once that # increases, we'll be watching out for ourselves even more.
No, it's because the number of black people is at its lowest point in decades. You know those niggaz* are responsible for all of America's crime.
I was kidding, unfortunately, a lowlife like Nick was not.
*I apologize if that offended someone, I was only trying to show how stupid any kind of prejudice is, since for most of us racism against blacks is out of style (and ageism against the young unfortunately isn't).
Now that my anger at the comments has somewhat died down, I must say that I don't Nick or where he's coming from, so the "lowlife" comment refers only to this specific idea of his (and everybody else who believes it too). Not the person.
Sometimes I should think more before posting, but what can you do when something is so blatantly horrible?
This is a generic answer to the immediately preceding question. It should be applied to everyone, not just Pork.
Just pretend this is a real face-to-face conversation and think what would happen if you said something to that person's face, ie would he continue to argue or smack you upside the head. If the latter, than don't post it!
Pork: the other white trash meat -
Apparently you're unaware of the study published last year whose purpose was to explain the decrease in the crime rate. The panel hypothesized [note] that the increased use of birth control and abortion by low socio-economic single girls had led to a substantially lower number of boys between 13 and 20 who had raised themselves without benefit of family. Since this is the group that commits the most crimes per capita, the crime rate decreased. Nick left out the socioeconomic considerations from his post and appeared to post an ageist slur.
(note): the panel was too surprised by the results to call it a conclusion; people from the political and religious right have tried to shoot it down, thus far unsuccessfully.
It's not a surprise that people from a poor, single parent family would be more likely to commit crimes. There's no reason that people should be judged because they happen to be in the same "group." People should be judged as individuals and not through stupid classifications of age, sex, race, etc.
And where do you get off calling me white trash? All I was trying to point out is how there is no real difference between racism and ageism.
That was just in response to the word that you used. By striking the word, I retracted it. Don't be offended; any friend of Jersey Mike must be OK.
Are you insulting him again? That seems somewhat sarcastic.
Nick left out the socioeconomic considerations from his post and appeared to post an ageist slur.
Thank you, Bob, for pointing this out. I'm sorry to have missed this part.....but I in no way was putting race into this at all; I am not a bigot. -Nick
but I in no way was putting race into this at all; I am not a bigot.
Bigotry includes more than racism.
And when did I imply that you included race anyway?
4. The Times is just a newspaper, a hopelessly ideological one at that. It is not a guide to life.
How many newspapers are there that aren't ideological? Anybody with a brain should be able to take editorials and features with a grain of salt.
5. The Dodgers are perfectly happy in Los Angeles. They aren't coming back to Brooklyn.
The team doesn't decide where they want to go. If a Brooklynite wanted to buy them, then they wouldn't be happy anymore.
6. All the whining about Census "undercounts" doesn't obscure the fact that the Sunbelt won and New York lost. Get used to it.
Better to beaten by a piece of shit than to be king of said shit.
7. Coney Island will never again see its glory days of the 1950's. People today go to Disney World or Six Flags.
That's right.
I'm not being sarcastic either.
8. Old Penn Station is lost and gone forever.
So, when somebody is murdered you should drop criminal prosecution because the dead guy isn't coming back?
10. The world does not end at the Hudson River.
Yes it does. It starts again at the Delaware, and gets lost a few times on its way to the other coast.
Millions and millions of people have happy lives out there in the land of Interstates, single-family subdivisions and Wal-Marts.
Lots of people in mental institutions are perfectly happy.
Ok I have a dumb question. And it was something I was wondering for a while. I'm asking it because it was mentioned here. Forgive me if it really isn't transit related.
Why didn't Wal-mart ever build any stores here in the immediate NYC area? It seems that with the demise of Caldor, the near death of Bradlees, the ill health of KMart, and the absence of many Targets that Wal-mart would swoop in and try to gain control.
Ok I have a dumb question. And it was something I was wondering for a while. I'm asking it because it was mentioned here. Forgive me if it really isn't transit related.
Why didn't Wal-mart ever build any stores here in the immediate NYC area? It seems that with the demise of Caldor, the near death of Bradlees, the ill health of KMart, and the absence of many Targets that Wal-mart would swoop in and try to gain control.
One theory is that Wal*Mart's "middle America" culture is too incompatible with a sophisticated urban atmosphere. I find that a little hard to accept, as the company has been perfectly willing to site stores in other urban areas. Besides, being answerable to shareholders, Wal*Mart's management will go any place where they think they'll get a decent rate of return.
I suspect that unions are the key. Wal*Mart prides itself on being a completely non-union company. And it practically goes without saying that New York is the nation's most unionized area, having taken over that title from the industrial Midwest. 'Taint hard to see why the company's afraid of New York.
Of course, Wal*Mart is not a complete stranger to the New York area. It does have some stores in the fringes of the metro area, although the city itself is off-limits. Union support must tail off at the city line.
BTW - Bradlees is no longer nearly dead. Management has pulled the plug, and the stores will be part of history once liquidation sales are completed.
[Wal*Mart prides itself on being a completely non-union company.]
And that helps to explain why it has a reputation for treating its workers like garbage.
BMTman
One theory is that Wal*Mart's "middle America" culture is too incompatible with a sophisticated urban atmosphere.
That's probably right. Here, thankfully, there are no Wal-Marts in intown Atlanta (inside the Perimeter, I-285). I hate Walmart, it's the epiphany of suburban sprawl. What's worse, they're now making "Super Walmarts." I wouldn't shop there for anything.
Wal*Mart prides itself on being a completely non-union company.
They aren't unionized probably because it would be too funny to see the 100 year old man who greets everyone go on strike.
One theory is that Wal*Mart's "middle America" culture is too incompatible with a sophisticated urban atmosphere.
That's probably right. Here, thankfully, there are no Wal-Marts in intown Atlanta (inside the Perimeter, I-285). I hate Walmart, it's the epiphany of suburban sprawl. What's worse, they're now making "Super Walmarts." I wouldn't shop there for anything.
In my original posting, I said that I did not believe that Wal*Mart's "middle America" culture was the reason for its lack of stores in NYC. As a publicly held corporation, answerable to shareholders, Wal*Mart will locate stores anywhere it believes will be economically advantageous. Similarly, their lack of stores inside the Perimeter probably has nothing to do with culture (not to mention the fact that metro Atlanta's culture is less alien to Wal*Mart's than is New York's). Wal*Mart stores need a lot of land, costs for which probably are considerably less outside the Perimeter. Remember, people are willing to drive considerable distances to patronize Wal*Marts, so what seem like relatively remote locations probably aren't so bad.
"As a publicly held corporation, answerable to shareholders, Wal*Mart will locate stores anywhere it believes will be economically advantageous. Similarly, their lack of stores inside the Perimeter probably has nothing to do with culture (not to mention the fact that metro Atlanta's culture is less alien to Wal*Mart's than is New York's). Wal*Mart stores need a lot of land, costs for which probably are considerably less outside the Perimeter."
But Walmart isn't Home Depot or Ikea, selling mostly large items that MUST be transported by car or truck. They sell the same things that a Sears does, and Sears has always maintained an urban presence. Other retailers with the same product mix as Wal-Mart and which usually build big boxes -- K-Mart, for instance -- have adapted to urban markets by building locations in old department stores, having multilevel garages instead of parking lots, etcetera. But Wal-Mart doesn't. Therefore, the fact that Wal-mart builds ONLY the stand-alone, parking-lot-surrounded land-intensive variety of store when other similar retailers adapt to the urban market suggests to me that the difference IS attributable to corporate culture.
The bulk of Wal-Mart's stores are just a step or two above the metal corrigated building level, which makes it easy for the company to build them almost as disposable items.
There are lots of Wal-Mart buildings ranging in size from 60,000 to 90,000 sq. ft. that were built and then abandoned after only a few years, when the company decided to build 150,000- to 200,000 sq.ft. supercenters in their place. Sometimes the building is sold to another business or subdivided into smaller stores, other times it just sits idle for years.
Many of these are built and they destroy a village downtown with their "falling prices," forcing the owners and workers of these businesses to work at minimum wage jobs. Once they've successfully killed the competition, they drop their prices well below -2,147,483,647, forcing everyone to pay the new high prices and eventually they close the store completely, forcing people to drive to a superstore far away.
With apologies to "The Matrix," there is only one other thing that behaves like that, a virus. Which is all Walmart will ever be. For everybody's information, there's a www.walmartsucks.com.
With apologies to "The Matrix," there is only one other thing that behaves like that, a virus.
You touch upon an interesting point. It's not a far stretch to say that cities are living beings that function much the same way as biological organisms. Of course they're almost entirely man-made and operate on a much larger scale than any natural organism, but the general idea remains the same. Different components serve different functions, and cities come in a wide variety of shapes, sizes, and varying degrees of health. Not much different than most biological organisms when you think about it, and it only makes sense because cities are the direct products of bilogical beings (us humans). Streets, highways and mass transit are the circulatory system, the power grid and telecommunications networks are the nervous system, and sewage treatment plants are the... well, you get the picture.
With that idea in mind, the parallels between suburban sprawl and malignant tumors are staggering. Both consist of rapidly multiplying mutant "cells" that that suck nutrients and resources away from the host organism and eventually overcome that organism and kill it if the cancer is not stopped. Just look at places like Los Angeles, Houston and Atlanta to see this process in action. Detroit lost the battle at the earliest stages of the epidemic; Chicago is slowly turning the tide after decades of assault.
Whether Wal-Mart and other predatory "big box" retailers are the causes or merely the byproducts of this cancer is debatable, but their strong association with this cancer cannot be ignored. I tend to think of them as merely one type of "mutant" cell which forms the overall malignancy.
Just something to think about... Have a nice day!
-- David
Chicago, IL
It's not a far stretch to say that cities are living beings that function much the same way as biological organisms ... With that idea in mind, the parallels between suburban sprawl and malignant tumors are staggering. Both consist of rapidly multiplying mutant "cells" that that suck nutrients and resources away from the host organism and eventually overcome that organism and kill it if the cancer is not stopped ... Whether Wal-Mart and other predatory "big box" retailers are the causes or merely the byproducts of this cancer is debatable, but their strong association with this cancer cannot be ignored. I tend to think of them as merely one type of "mutant" cell which forms
the overall malignancy.
What's really awful are these gangs of armed thugs that threaten to slaughter people unless they shop at Wal*Mart ... what's that? There AREN'T any such gangs??? Oh no, this is awful ... it must mean that (gulp!) people actually like to shop at Wal*Mart!!!
I trust you see my point. Your "living being" analogy is interesting, but the fact remains that cities - not to mention suburbs and rural areas - are comprised of people who have, or should have, free will. Whatever you may think of Wal*Mart, if people want to shop there, no one has a right to stop them from doing so. If by patronizing Wal*Mart people cause some downtowns to wither and die, that's the way the cookie crumbles. No, I wouldn't want to see that happen, healthy downtowns are desirable, but no one has the right to change peoples' preferences to suit an urbanist (or any other kind of) agenda.
Please don't get the impression that I'm some sort of apologist for Wal*Mart. I find their stores a bit cluttered, Target has better merchandise, and I think it's rather hypocritical that Wal*Mart refuses to carry CD's with "parental warning" stickers yet is the nation's biggest gun dealer. But the fact remains, pretty much indisputable, that Wal*Mart serves the needs of millions upon millions of people very well. Nothing we say can change that.
But the fact remains, pretty much indisputable, that Wal*Mart serves the needs of millions upon millions of people very well.
So does Phillip Morris. And so do pimps, crack dealers and ambulance-chasing lawyers, but that doesn't mean it's good for our communities.
Don't get me wrong: I don't mind the concept of "big box" retailers per se (Marshall Field's magnificent store on State Street is one of the biggest boxes of them all), nor do I necessarily have a problem with national retail chains (I freely admit to purchasing a latte at Starbucks every weekday morning on the way to work).
What I do have a problem with is companies who think they are above the rules of common decency and who use their size and power to unfairly crush their competition and monopolize local retail markets, or who impose their formula-designed stores onto existing communities with no regard given as to how they impact the local quality of life. I'm a firm believer in free will and a free market economy, but that means a free market for all people and not just those who have the political and/or financial power to manipulate the playing field to their own advantage at the expense of everybody else.
I agree that people should have the right to shop where they choose, and that means people should also have the right to shop on Main Street rather than have their shopping choices dictated to them by a bunch of corporate suits in Arkansas who have a vested self-interest and the power to crush Main Street out of existance.
-- David
Chicago, IL
A local example for me is a neighborhood in Atlanta called Little Five Points. It's just north of Inman Park MARTA station. This is one of the most characteristic neighborhoods of Atlanta. It has a "psychidelic 60s" feels to it, also known as where the "freaks of Atlanta go." It's a very friendly neighborhood with lots of charm and absolutely no chain stores. Except for a Starbucks, which was built less than a year ago. The controversy surrounding the opening of that Starbucks was huge. The entire neighborhood was against it, fearing that it would ruin the area's atmosphere. It's not the typical group of NIMBYs that are a minority. Everyone is this neighborhood is dead set aganist chain stores. I walked by that Starbucks recently and thankfully no one was in it. No one ever goes to it.
Big Box chain stores never know when they aren't wanted. Walmart, Home Depot, and others have attempted(are attempting) to build stores there. As a result, Little Five is trying to create rules where it is nearly impossible to build a chain store. Unfortunatly, the rules also make it difficult for individual small business owners that are welcome there to be able to set up shop. It's sad to see that a neighorhood must go to extreme measures to keep out unwanted retailers. Big Box retailers refuse to take "no" for an answer.
Sorry, David, but Starbucks is on my $h!t list, but not as high as Walmart.
Sorry, David, but Starbucks is on my $h!t list, but not as high as Walmart.
Well, I have no particular loyalty to Starbucks other than the fact that they're located in the lobby of the Sears Tower next to the elevators I use, and make for a convenient pit stop before I head up into the clouds each morning.
That said, Starbucks seems to serve as a convenient scapegoat for urban gentrification but I don't think the backlash against Starbucks is entirely justified. Only by virtue of the fact that they're on almost every street corner, they serve as the most visible symbol of all the ills associated with gentrification and therefore seem to take the brunt of the backlash. Chicago has several neighborhoods like the Little Five Points area you describe, and new Starbucks locations in these areas have often been welcomed by bricks thrown through the front windows.
I can sympathize with neighborhood residents who are justifiably concerned about gentrification -- nobody here wants Chicago to become another San Fancisco or Boston, and I'd be throwing bricks too if I were being faced with the prospect of getting priced out of my own neighborhood -- but I feel their anger is a bit misdirected. Starbucks isn't Wal-Mart for a number of reasons:
1) Their stores, while numerous, are usually small and fit well within the existing urban fabric. In most cases they are very pedestrian-oriented and actually add life to the streetscape instead of sapping it away. Neighborhoods need more stores like this, not fewer.
2) Since Starbucks usually locates within pre-existing retail space rather than building their own buildings from scratch, it is inherently impossible for them to have a cookie-cutter design. Most Starbucks here in Chicago each have their own unique design character (occasional plywood storefronts nowithstanding).
3) From what I understand, Starbucks actually treats their employees fairly well, offering them pay and benefits that entry-level retail employees would be lucky to even dream of.
4) So far I have yet to hear any serious allegations of Starbucks deliberately conspiring to destroy its competition by underselling or other predatory practices. In fact, except for maybe a few college areas, the whole coffee craze never really caught on until Starbucks wetted the public's appetite. So it's not like there were scores of locally-owned coffee houses that suddenly went out of business upon the arrival of Starbucks. In reality I think the reverse may even be true. It seems that Starbucks itself created the demand for quality coffee in a classic case of "If you build it, they will come" marketing philosophy. That, in turn, eventually led to the opening of dozens of locally-owned coffee houses in neighborhoods across the city, each coffee house determined to make better coffee and serve it in a better atmosphere than big evil Starbucks. You can't spit in Chicago's Lincoln Park neighborhood without hitting a coffee house, and I'd guess that only about a third or fewer are Starbucks. Starbucks is also opening up in the artsy Wicker Park neighborhood, where they will have a difficult time competing against popular places like Urban Grind and Earwax Cafe which already have fiercely loyal followings.
In conclusion, I will continue to sip my Starbucks latte guilt-free until am presented with a good enough reason not to.
You're right about some of the other "superstore" national chains, though... They don't give a shit about their local communities, and they don't even give a shit about their own customers. The only thing that matters to them is their stock value on Wall Street which is boosted by constantly expanding their presence, not by good business. The same rules that allow Amazon.com to turn millions without making a profit also allow the superstores to turn millions while treating their employees, customers and communities like dirt. Welcome to the New Economy.
-- David
Chicago, IL
Unlike Wal-Mart, Stabucks doesn't undersell their competitors, if anything, their prices are higher than most other coffee shops. They make that work by either A.) Offering a premium brand of coffee better than other stores and/or B.) Being trendy enough to attract the Gen X/Yuppie crowds willing to pay the extra price for Stabucks because....well, because it's Starbucks.
A better comparison to Wal-Mart's situation in the retailing business is the hue and cry over the growth of Barnes and Nobel Bookstores across the country.
Here, you've got a business that began in New York, and for years was based only at Fifth Ave. and 18th Street, which in the 1980s began expading out into the hinderlands with its large-volume stores (with accompanying Starbucks Cafes, of course) and volume buying of books which undercut smaller independent bookstores around the U.S.
To small-scale booksellers, B&N is as much of a Great Satan as Wal-Mart is to mom-and-pop retailers, though I think only the Upper West Side of Manhattan has mounted any major protest in the city over their intrusion onto Broadway. But just like Wal-Mart, B&N's success is based on the fact they do offer lower prices and larger selections to parts of the country that didn't have those options before.
And just as Wal-Mart has competition from Target in most of the more-populted areas (where the Supercenters tend to go) and from the Dollar General and Family Dollar chains in the smaller areas, B&N's competition comes from both Borders (also in the more populated areas) and Amazon.com. In both cases, the competition is still enough to keep Wal-Mart or B&N from instututing monopolistic price increases even with their growing dominiance of their retailing sectors.
In the case of small bookstores, I must say one thing:
They SUCK. And so do the big ones for that matter. I vow never to even come within spitting distance of any one of these pieces of shit.
It's impossible to find anything but a "best seller" at these locations. What the big stores have an advantage in inventory, they make up for in complexity. At a library, there are catalogs and call numbers to find what you want. It never takes more than a few minutes to do so. At a bookstore, one is always required to ask a useless worker (someone who does something that people can do for themselves) for help, and then there is no guarantee. Even the big stores don't have access to the inventory of other stores so you can go cross town to get something. A library does.
An online bookstore on the other hand, has a huge selection, and all you have to do is type the name and get it as early as the next day. No tax combined with discounts gets the price with shipping to something equal to a bricks and murder book store.
Sometimes a small store will have a specialty where you can find out of print and rare books. A chain has none of these things. A chain is only useful for reading new best sellers for free. I don't feel the slightest bit guilty for creasing their paperbacks.
To small-scale booksellers, B&N is as much of a Great Satan as Wal-Mart is to mom-and-pop retailers, though I think only the Upper West Side of Manhattan has mounted any major protest in the city over their intrusion onto Broadway
Why does that not surprise me in the least?
A better comparison to Wal-Mart's situation in the retailing business is the hue and cry over the growth of Barnes and Nobel Bookstores across the country ... But just like Wal-Mart, B&N's success is based on the fact they do offer lower prices and larger selections to parts of the country that didn't have those options before.
You've touched on a point that the anti-Wal*Mart crowd overlooks. Many people have an unreasonably idyllic notion of life in the pre-Wal*Mart days. In their view, most of America was characterized by charming small downtowns right out of a Jimmy Stewart movie. Mr. Jones the friendly storekeeper had a quaint little shop on the corner, with a twinkle in his eye and encyclopedic knowledge of every item in the shop. Then cam big bad Wal*Mart, and poor Mr. Jones was ruined.
Reality was usually quite different. Most downtowns - which probably never had been particularly charming - were on the decline well before Sam Walton expanded out of Bentonville. The little shops usually were anything but quaint, with high prices, poor selections, and limited hours.
And just as Wal-Mart has competition from Target in most of the more-populted areas (where the Supercenters tend to go) and from the Dollar General and Family Dollar chains in the smaller areas, B&N's competition comes from both Borders (also in the more populated areas) and Amazon.com. In both cases, the competition is still enough to keep Wal-Mart or B&N from instututing monopolistic price increases even with their growing dominiance of their retailing sectors
President Eisenhower (with consulting help from one Robert Moses) laid the groundwork for the decline of small town shopping areas with the creation of the Interstate Highway System, which allowed rural residents the chance to go to big city and/or suburban malls 50- to 100-miles away in less time than it takes commuters from Eastern Queens or Staten Island to get into Manhattan.
Not that people that far away would hit the mall on a spur-of-the-moment thing, but the roads made planned trips to shop far easier than on the old narrow two-lane highways. Now, you even have the outlet malls that deliberately locate along interstates in rural areas midway between urban centers with the idea that people in both cities will drive out to the country for discounts.
Chain bookstores, while they have their advantages, are more of a negative than any other type of chain store in my opinion. They offer essentially the same merchandise regardless of where you are in the country, focused on the so-called "best sellers" rather than on intellectually-interesting books that the owner and his staff have read. Also, since they are owned by the publishing houses, they enjoy special pricing that significantly undercuts the prices they charge the independents. Even small chains with comparatively large inventories can't compete, local-interest and knowledgeable staff notwithstanding. Wallace Kuralt (brother of the late Charles Kuralt) founded a bookstore in Chapel Hill, North Carolina called The Intimate Bookshop many years ago. While it did carry bestsellers, its focus was always on books of intellectual merit and regional interest. Kuralt eventually expanded from one store to at least six (or was it nine?), in North and South Carolina, and was doing well until the publishers (Barnes and Noble among them) delayed shipments to his stores until the major chains had saturated the market with the new releases, and were also charging him more (wholesale) than they were retailing the books for. Eventually he was back to two locations, then one, and finally out of business in 1998. The loss of his stores was a major blow. Unfortunately, it's a sign of the times.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
You're right about some of the other "superstore" national chains, though... They don't give a shit about their local communities, and they don't even give a shit about their own customers. The only thing that matters to them is their stock value on Wall Street which is boosted by constantly expanding their presence, not by good business. The same rules that allow Amazon.com to turn millions without making a profit also allow the superstores to turn millions while treating their employees, customers and communities like dirt. Welcome to the New Economy.
News Flash: for any publicly traded company, the stock price is all that really matters. Any talk about "community responsibility" and such is mere window dressing. Today's institutional investors demand high returns and have zero tolerance for corporate managers who don't remain focused on enhancing shareholder value. This isn't the New Economy, it's basic Economics 101.
I know this sounds bleak, but the relentless pursuit of corporate self-interest has, despite what one might imagine, improved the lots of most Americans quite nicely. Let's take Wal*Mart, shall we? Whatever its role in the destruction of middle America's downtowns might be (and I believe this role has been greatly exaggerated), it has become the nation's largest private-sector employer. Many of those jobs, no doubt, were created in small-town and rural areas that weren't exactly hotbeds of hiring before Wal*Mart came along. Funny, the company's critics never seem to acknowledge this fact.
News Flash: for any publicly traded company, the stock price is all that really matters. Any talk about "community responsibility" and such is mere window dressing. Today's institutional investors demand high returns and have zero tolerance for corporate managers who don't remain focused on enhancing shareholder value. This isn't the New Economy, it's basic Economics 101.
News Flash: For traditional national retail chains, you first had to start small and then expand by offering superior selection and superior service at superior prices. Most of these chains were privately owned until they had expanded significantly enough to become public. Nowadays, all it takes is a fat wad of IPO cash and an aggressive marketing strategy to go in and rape and plunder a local retail community.
And whether these companies admit it or not, they do in fact have a community responsibility. If their shareholders refuse to acknowledge this, then that's a personal issue for them to deal with. Regardless of what the laws say, -- laws can be changed at the drop of a hat -- no company has the moral right to make their profits off the death and destruction of other people's health or livelihoods, whether by dumping toxic chemicals into a watershed or by using predatory tactics to destroy local communities.
Hasn't this SubTalk thread been beaten to death by now?
-- David
Chicago, IL
Yes, it has been beaten to death.
Yes, I like your thinking>
Peace,
ANDEE
Yeah, how many times can ya beat a dead horse, anyway?
BMT (Sanwich) man
That's just about enough out of you. 8-)
Peace,
ANDEE
I forgot to add that the vast majority of Wal-Mart's "new jobs" are dead-end, minimum-wage retail positions with no health benefits and virtually no opportunities for significant advancement. No wonder any employee suspected of union-organizing activities is fired on the spot. (Back in a former life I worked as a cashier for Target for a year, and the employee manual made no bones about its zero-tolerance policy toward unions. And Target was considered a cush job compared to our couterparts at Wal-Mart across the street.)
I just love how large corporations are somehow exempt from the moral crusade that Republicans are constantly trying to shove down our throats.
(Okay, I promise this is my final posting on this thread. I just have a hard time allowing bullshit to go unrefuted.)
-- David
Chicago, IL
It's this simple, As long as the ideology subscribed to by the republican party today is adhered to by any significant number of Americans, (Linda tripp morality) america will go down.
>>>I just love how large corporations are somehow exempt from the moral crusade that Republicans are constantly trying to
shove down our throats.
Well, you cannot successfully bite the hand that feeds you. Who makes up the largest category of "contributions" to Congressional campaigns? - and especially Republican campaigns?
-cordially,
turnstiles
I forgot to add that the vast majority of Wal-Mart's "new jobs" are dead-end, minimum-wage retail positions with no health benefits and virtually no opportunities for significant advancement.
And the jobs in the long-lamented Main Street retailers were any better?
Before blasting Wal*Mart jobs, you should go into one of their stores and see what sort of people actually work there. Most of the non-managerial workers fall into one of three categories:
1. Teenagers, looking to make some money after school.
2. Older people retired from other jobs, looking to keep busy and maybe supplement their pensions a bit.
3. Adult women, most of whom are married and want to make some extra cash while the kids are in school.
What you won't see in any appreciable numbers are adult men, the sort of people who usually are their households' main breadwinners. Yeah yeah, I know there are exceptions; some of the women might be heads of household, and so on, but the general rule stands.
Face facts, whether you like Wal*Mart or not, the company is a monumental success by any standards and isn't going anywhere. You aren't going to change things, so save yourself the heartburn and make your peace with these facts.
I forgot to add that the vast majority of Wal-Mart's "new jobs" are dead-end, minimum-wage retail positions with no health benefits and virtually no opportunities for significant advancement.
And jobs in the small mom-and-pop retail stores are any different? Speaking as someone with a financial interest in a small retail business (and having worked there anywhere from 15 to 100 hours a week for quite a number of years - even now, almost 500 miles away, I'm still actively involved in the business) I can tell you that there is no opportunity for advancement, no health benefits (even as an owner), and not much pay either. If I were to run the business full-time, with just the other partners - no other paid employees - I'd be doing well to clear 30K per year. I would love to be behind the counter, but I have a family to feed and educate. I could make more working as a department manager for Wal*Mart, and spend a lot fewer hours on the job. Fortunately, I have other marketable skills, which is why I'm in New Jersey working as a project manager for a major firm with a reasonable salary and decent health benefits.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Peter, this is the manifesto of Conservative/libertarian morality. (A HUGE oxyMORON) My feeling is that to restore respectability to the rule of law people should vote and work union always. Wal*Mart can go to hell and if our country doesn't shape up real soon America's decline is inevitable and unstoppable. Don't shoot me I'm just the messinger.
I consider myself a libertarian, but one that is PRO-union and PRO-some regulation.
I agree with you but you are NOT a libertarian in the accepted meaning of the word
NOBODY can be take any extreme viewpoint perfectly.
Or, somebody can, but it will never work. It's impossible to be at the extreme end of the spectrum, one'll fall over.
Actually, Wal-Mart is still in its expansion phase -- I only know of one town they've gone into, opened a store that chased out the downtown businesses, then closed and moved away.
They normally replace the 60,000 square foot store with another one nearby around 175,000 square feet that includes a supermarket, which allows them to target the other supermarkets in that community. They also mail out bulk circulars to customers in wide-zoned areas (you really want to see people who hate Wal-Mart? Talk to anyone in the newspaper business, which rarely gets a dime from the company in ad revenues). Sending out all those circulars does require a general standardization of prices regionally.
What they are running into though, is the fact that the grocery industry is more hospitable to unionization than the retailing industry. When the meat cutters at one Supercenter voted to unionize, Wal-Mart not only shut that meat counter down, they decided to shut them all down and contract out to a third party to provide those stores with pre-packaged meat.
This may keep the unions at bay, but for shoppers who actually want specific types or cuts of meat, Wal-Mart has assumed a "take it or leave it" attitude, which figures to help their competitors.
But Walmart isn't Home Depot or Ikea, selling mostly large items that MUST be transported by car or truck. They sell the same things that a Sears does, and Sears has always maintained an urban presence. Other retailers with the same product mix as Wal-Mart and which usually build big boxes -- K-Mart, for instance -- have adapted to urban markets by building locations in old department stores, having multilevel garages instead of parking lots, etcetera. But Wal-Mart doesn't. Therefore, the fact that Wal-mart builds ONLY the stand-alone, parking-lot-surrounded land-intensive variety of store when other similar retailers adapt to the urban market suggests to me that the difference IS attributable to corporate culture.
Wal*Mart has many more stores than Home Depot and vastly more than IKEA. Their stores are basically a standardized item (as J. Lee also noted), and presumably are built to a uniform plan. Deviating from that plan in order to build urban stores might very well be more trouble than it's worth. Sears is a very poor analogy, as it's been around decades longer than Wal*Mart, having started when urban, transit-friendly stores were the exception rather than the rule.
If Wal*Mart's adversion to unions is a form of "culture," I suppose you could say that culture is responsible for keeping the stores out of cities, seeing as how unionization is more of an urban thing these days. I consider the union policy to be a dollars-and-cents business principle rather than a matter of culture, however. YMMV.
I wouldn't call it culture, it's just good business. Do something. Do it well. Do it as often as you can. Lather. Rinse. Repeat.
What Wal*Mart does well is get cheap land, throw up a cookie cutter store, negotiate sweet deals for your inventory, manage that inventory through top-notch systems and sell the inventory with inexpensive labor.
You can't get cheap land in NYC -- or inexpensive labor.
KMart is trying to break their mold with their Manhattan stores. I'd love to see the P&L statement on those locations. I'm sure Wal*Mart would also.
CG
What Wal*Mart does well is get cheap land, throw up a cookie cutter store, negotiate sweet deals for your inventory, manage that inventory through top-notch systems and sell the inventory with inexpensive labor.
A strategy which has made the company #4 on the Fortune 500 after only a few decades in existence. Not to mention the fact that it's also the nation's largest private-sector employer.
KMart is trying to break their mold with their Manhattan stores. I'd love to see the P&L statement on those locations. I'm sure Wal*Mart would also.
Rumor (yes, just rumor) has it that the Manhattan K-Marts are run-of-the-mill, fiftieth-percentile performers for the chain. Their revenues are high, but so are their expenses, so it all about evens out. Note that K-Mart seems to be in no hurry to open any more stores in Manhattan.
What Wal*Mart does well is get cheap land, throw up a cookie cutter store, negotiate sweet deals for your inventory, manage that inventory through top-notch systems and sell the inventory with inexpensive labor.
You left out one major component of Wal-Mart's business strategy: the elimination of any locally-owned competition. When Wal-Mart decides to move into a given area, here is usually what happens:
1) Before plans for a new store in a given market are even publicly announced, Wal-Mart will take a thorough inventory of existing independent retailers within that market, taking note of what they sell, how much they sell it for, etc.
2) Upon opening, the new Wal-Mart store will saturate the local market with goods and prices specifically selected to compete with the local independent retailers, based on their previous research. Most Wal-Mart stores undercut their prices on this merchadise so low that new stores actually operate at a loss for the first year or so of business, usually ample time for any local competition to be driven out of business.
3) New Wal-Mart stores will typically also hire far more staff than they actually need, partly to lure employees away from other retailers and also to overwhelm customers with artificially high levels of customer service to get them into the habit of shopping at Wal-Mart.
4) Once most local competition is eliminated, usually within a year in most cases, a typical Wal-Mart store will then raise its prices by an average of 33% and lay off a significant portion of its staff.
5) In many cases, Wal-Mart will then shut down one or more of its own stores within a region after a couple years of operation even if the store itself is profitable. This forces customers to drive even further for basic goods at larger, more profitable Wal-Mart stores which can then dominate an even larger geographic area.
This is not free-market capitalism. This is profiteering off the rape and plunder of other people's livelihoods. Wal-Mart is one of only two companies (Disney being the other) that I absolutely refuse to give a dime of my money to. Some apologists will defend these practices as simply being "the American way". Well, if that's truly the American way, then I'm truly ashamed to be an American.
Obviously, (in addition to the other factors mentioned such as labor unions and the cost of real estate) this type of business strategy would be just about impossible in most larger urban areas, especially New York, so Wal-Mart has the good sense to stay in small and medium-sized rural and suburban markets where local merchants tend to be fewer and scattered much farther apart, and therefore much easier prey.
-- David
Chicago, IL
Well put, David, more people need to know what bastards Wal-Mart are.
Peace,
ANDEE
Good assessment.
Also, why Disney?
[re listing of Wal*Mart's predatory business practices]
What's that I see? Ah, it's my Urban Legend Detector, flashing yellow.
My source is the book "Cities Back from the Edge: New Life for Downtown". (I don't recall the authors offhand but I can find out when I get home from work this evening.) Their information about Wal-Mart's busines practices is well-documented and comes from a former high-level senior manager at Wal-Mart's corporate headquarters, whose name I believe is also given in the book. Again, I'll find out more specific information when I get home and can pull the book off my shelf.
I believe that flashing yellow light is the public gullibility indicator. Must be the result of those feel-good Wal-Mart commercials where they tell people what wonderful corporate citizens they are.
-- David
Chicago, IL
>>>I believe that flashing yellow light is the public gullibility indicator. Must be the result of those feel-good Wal-Mart commercials where they tell people what wonderful corporate citizens they are. <<<
Touche!
PEace,
ANDEE
My source is the book "Cities Back from the Edge: New Life for Downtown". (I don't recall the authors offhand but I can find out when I get home from work this evening.) Their information about Wal-Mart's busines practices is well-documented and comes from a former high-level senior manager at Wal-Mart's corporate headquarters, whose name I believe is also given in the book. Again, I'll find out more specific information when I get home and can pull the book off my shelf.
I'm somewhat skeptical about this source, as it sounds from the book's very title that the authors may not be completely objective. And that former manager could very well have scores to settle. But let's assume that the claims are true. That does not make Wal*Mart's practices illegal in any way, or even, for that matter, unethical. Wal*Mart is not a nonprofit organization. Its managers have the duty of enhancing shareholder value, and they've apparently come to the conclusion that crushing the competition in certain areas is the best way to accomplish that end. Any othe company, be it Target or K-Mart or anyone else, would do the exact same thing if they could.
Besides, I'm somewhat skeptical as to how many areas really have a Wal*Mart monopoly. Target and K-Mart remain strong competitors, the former in particular, not to mention all the other retail outlets. It's probably in only the smaller towns that Wal*Mart is truly dominant, and that's largely because of their willingness to open stores serving smaller population bases than is the case with Target or K-Mart. And most of the people in these smaller towns probably appreciate Wal*Mart's big selection and reasonable prices, especially compared to the mediocre local stores that used to be the only game in town.
I'm somewhat skeptical about this source, as it sounds from the book's very title that the authors may not be completely objective. And that former manager could very well have scores to settle.
I dig some digging and found the passages in the book I mentioned. The name of the book is Cities Back From the Edge: New Life for Downtown by Roberta Brandes Gratz and Norman Mintz, published in 1998 by John Wiley & Sons. And while the book is not entirely objective and makes to claims to be objective, it is very well-balanced and its findings are based on a vast collection of objective data and case studies. It is also at its core a very optimistic book, with chapters on how big-box superstores can be (and have been) incorporated into existing urban neighborhoods in such a way that they enhance the local business community instead of destroying it. Transit issues are also dealt with extensively, and I highly reccomend the book to anybody who has the slightest interest in urban planning and design issues. The best thing about the book is that it thoroughly de-bunks many popular myths about superstore retailing and suburban sprawl, and doesn't merely paint the picture in black-and-white terms.
Upon doing a bit of digging, I found the section dealing with Wal-Marts busines practices and the "former senior manager" I alluded to turned out to be none other than Sam Walton himself describing the company's business formula in his autobiography.
In composing this message I was looking for a good juicy paragraph to quote from, but upon further reading I found that I would have to transcribe the entire chapter here on SubTalk to really do it justice. Instead, I'll just list the chapters from the table of contents to give people an idea of what this book covers in case they're interested in picking it up themselves:
Section One: Where Are We?
Chapter 1: Mansfield, Ohio -- Getting off the big-project merry-go-round
Chapter 2: The mess we have made
Chapter 3: Project planning or urban husbandry -- The choice
Section Two: Transportation and Place
Chapter 4: Death and rebirth of the public realm
Chapter 5: Rebuilding place, valuing transit
Chapter 6: Undoing sprawl
Section Three: Big, Little, Predator
Chapter 7: Free competion or no competion?
Chapter 8: You don't have to be Wal-Mart to be Wal-Mart
Chapter 9: To market, to market
Section Four: Downtown Essentials
Chapter 10: Public buildings, public places
Chapter 11: Back to basics
Chapter 12: Investing in people
Section Five: It's happening
Chapter 13: The SoHo syndrome
Conclusion: Back from the Edge
That does not make Wal*Mart's practices illegal in any way, or even, for that matter, unethical. Wal*Mart is not a nonprofit organization. Its managers have the duty of enhancing shareholder value, and they've apparently come to the conclusion that crushing the competition in certain areas is the best way to accomplish that end.
Bullshit. A runner who wins the race by running the fastest is one thing, but a runner who wins the race by smashing his competitors' skulls with a brick is the lowest form of life imaginable.
-- David
Chicago, IL
(Cities Back From the Edge: New Life for Downtown by Roberta Brandes Gratz and Norman Mintz, published in 1998)
Don't take anything written by these people seriously. They were the once who advocated the policies that drove cities to the edge 40 years ago, and are constantly looking to deflect the blame. In NYC, their big claim to fame is working to keep new stores out of NYC. In fact, they work to keep new ANYTHING out of NYC, despite the fact that it is an influx of new people, new kinds of people, new businesses, and new kinds of businesses that has brought NYC back from the edge.
Have you actually read the book? The policies that drove cities to the edge (literally) 40 years ago were the policies created by the Dwight Eisenhowers and Robert Moseses of the day. This book is firmly in line with the likes of Jane Jacobs and William H. Whyte, who were about the only friends cities had 40 years ago.
I don't deny that New York has plenty of other policies that hurt it today, namely in terms of real estate development, housing and inept city governemnt crippled by a gamut of conflicting special-interest and NIMBY groups. And it is possible to carry urbanist ideals to such an extreme that the results end up being far worse than the initial problems.
(Exhibit A: Asinine zoning laws in places like New York, San Francisco and Boston that make almost any new construction illegal, thereby driving real estate prices up so high that national chains like Borders and Gap are the only stores that can afford to locate there. Exhibit B: Celebration, Florida, a New Urbanist community built by Disney that behaves more like a Soviet gulag than any cookie-cutter subdivision in the 'burbs.)
There are some things in the book I don't completely agree with. The authors take great pains to denounce some major public building projects, and anybody who has read my postings on SubTalk knows that I'm firmly in favor of large-scale investment in the public infrastructure. But all in all I thought it was rather fair-minded book that presented simple but innovative solutions for improving the quality of urban life. I highly reccomend reading it, even if some parts need to be taken with a grain of salt.
-- David
Chicago, IL
>>>That does not make Wal*Mart's practices illegal in any way, or even, for that matter, unethical.
Peter:
A strategy of underselling specifically and solely to eliminate all local competitors, followed by a policy of rising prices dramatically after a monopoly is established - what David Cole is claiming, is both very unethical and anti-competitive for even a for-profit business. I am completely unfamiliar with his source, but if it is true (which you are assuming it is), then Walmart is benefiting noone except itself. It doesn't benefit the market overall since the key element of a market economy, real competition, longer exists. The most significant theoretical benefits of a market economy (truly large and sustained growth and innovation that theoretically will ultimately benefit every individual - i.e. trickle-down economics) all fail if all that a firm has to do to survive is sit on their figurative behinds and rake in profits because no opposing firm is left to compete! Numerous people state correctly that capitalism hinges on the accumulation of wealth in a competitive enviroment to drive improvements and innovation. Some people remember the part concerning the accumulation of wealth, but then completely forget the importance of competition as the driving force that compells people to perform and be better.
-cordially,
turnstiles
You left out one major component of Wal-Mart's business strategy: the elimination of any locally-owned competition.
David, in my experience with Wal*Mart, that hasn't been part of the equation. I'll cite three areas, all in North Carolina, in order of increasing size, with which I am familiar.
First, Louisburg. Wal*Mart arrived about 1991. Louisburg is a small "city", the centrally-located county seat of Franklin County, about 35 miles north-northeast of Raleigh. At the time Wal*Mart arrived the entire county had a population of between 35,000 and 40,000 inhabitants. (It's over 40 now and, along the southern edge, growing fast.) Downtown Louisburg had been in a slump long before Wal*Mart arrived, and out on Bickett Boulevard there existed a small Ames department store, a Winn-Dixie grocery, a disreputable auto parts store, and a chain pharmacy. Downtown had a couple of small local grocery stores (the A&P had closed a couple of years before), a florist, a couple of barber shops, H.C. Taylor's Hardware and Fine Furniture, a dress shop, a local pharmacy, Rowe's Men's Shop, and Leggett's department store (part of the Belk co-op, based in Charlotte). Of course, the post office, courthouse, and Louisburg Junior College were downtown as well. Wal*Mart brought products to Louisburg that, by and large, weren't readily available in town; shoes, casual clothing, and office supplies come quickly to mind. Now, ten years later, Taylor's is gone, Rowe's has moved out to the boulevard, Leggett's is gone (literally - it's now a parking lot), and the downtown florist and dress shop have closed as well. The downtown pharmacy moved out to the boulevard but closed shortly thereafter, when its owners divorced, but a number of other new stores have opened out on the boulevard - a hardware/garden center, two good auto parts stores, and several specialty shops (including a shoe store, right next to Wal*Mart), almost all locally-owned. And Wal*Mart's level of service is the same today as when it opened.
Second, Rocky Mount. Wal*Mart arrived there at about the same time as they did in Louisburg - maybe a year or so before. Rocky Mount is a city of about 30,000 population that straddles the Nash-Edgecombe county line. Its old downtown, bisected by the ACL (now CSX) main line, lies about eight miles east of I-95 and about 60 miles due east of Raleigh. Downtown was dying in the early '80s and by 1986, with the construction of a second shopping mall along US 301, was nearly dead. Today, it is a bustling area of specialty stores, catering to various ethnic groups that populate the area. Wal*Mart has expanded twice since their arrival in Rocky Mount; in their current incarnation they are a SuperCenter (a good-sized grocery in addition to other merchandise, located directly behind the one remaining mall (the other was flooded by Hurricane Floyd in 1999 and has never reopened), and across the highway from a K-Mart (also with a grocery section). Up the road, their former location now hosts a Target. All of the stores are busy, as are the locally-owned stores that populate the many strip centers up and down the highway.
Third, Raleigh. Wal*Mart has several stores in Raleigh (the state capital, pop. 250,000) now, plus a Sam's Club (although that is rumored to be closing). They are largely in areas of the city that were undeveloped ten years ago; Wal*Mart comes in with the developers, building their cookie-cutter stores right next to the cookie-cutter subdivisions. Again, no displacement of local merchants here.
So from my experience I don't see your complaint.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
[Wal*Marts in North Carolina not damaging downtowns or local businesses]
I've got a theory why anti-Wal*Mart sentiment might be higher in New York. Local businesses in North Carolina may have been able to survive and thrive despite Wal*Mart's presence because the state's vibrant economy means that there's enough money and business for everyone. In New York, and in the northeast in general, businesses are competing for pieces of a shrinking pie, creating a classic zero-sum game. It's not hard to see why existing businesses are a lot more frightened.
That may be, Peter. I know that for us it meant we didn't have to make the 35 mile drive to Raleigh any more for certain basic items - just the 14 mile drive to Louisburg.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Okay, let me work on this here listing to get some clarity out of it:
[1. There is no ironclad law of nature which says that it's impossible to expand transit systems. Other cities around the country are able to do so. New York can too.]
Unfortunately most of New York is already overdeveloped so extending lines -- at least within city limits -- is almost impossible without an order of "iminent domain". Other (and noticably less densely populated cities) are able to expand due to the availability of land area around the outskirts of town.
[2. You can put out a fire by smothering it with dirt. You cannot solve all social problems by smothering them with taxpayer money.]
Right, the word here is ALL social problems cannot be solved by 'smothering' with taxpayer money. BUT, there needs to a REASONABLE amount alloted for SOME social programs or this city (and country) would truly be on par with a Third World society.
[3. John Lindsay, advocate of the limousine liberal philosophy, died nearly broke, having to beg the city for a fake job just so he could get health insurance. Limousine liberalism is similarly bankrupt.]
Hogwash. Conservatives would like everyone to believe that Lindsey was living some kind of destitute life. This was not the case. Sure, he had health problems, but he could in no way be labeled as "needy". He was given that position by Rudy G. more out of respect for a former elected official (this is done quite often, BTW), than out of "pity".
[4. The Times is just a newspaper, a hopelessly ideological one at that. It is not a guide to life.]
Nobody should make any NYC paper as their "guide to life", but compared to the alternatives, The Post, and The News, the Times has more real 'news' to it than the other two rags put together.
[5. The Dodgers are perfectly happy in Los Angeles. They aren't coming back to Brooklyn.]
You'll get no argument with me there...
[6. All the whining about Census "undercounts" doesn't obscure the fact that the Sunbelt won and New York lost. Get used to it.]
This may be the case THIS time around. Everything doesn't stay the same, including census counts (however, we'll have to wait for the next ten years unfortunately).
[7. Coney Island will never again see its glory days of the 1950's. People today go to Disney World or Six Flags.]
You're on the money on this one...
[8. Old Penn Station is lost and gone forever.]
Ditto...Except in our memories...
[9. Assuming that businesses will pay huge premiums to locate in New York because the city's full of art museums and symphony orchestras is less logical than believing in the Easter Bunny.]
Are you saying that businesses ONLY reason for staying in NYC is for the proximity to cultural centers? That might be PART of the reason, but maybe it has something to do with the location of Wall Street, the fact that NYC has some 93 different ethnic groups living in it, or perhaps that we have three major airports and a massive transportation network in place? Cultural attractions ain't gonna be the #1 priority for major companies to pay premium real estate taxes...pleazzzze.
[10. The world does not end at the Hudson River. Millions and millions of people have happy lives out there in the land of Interstates, single-family subdivisions and Wal-Marts.]
Yeah, but just within the confines of the five boroughs -- heck, within the borough of Brooklyn alone -- there are some many different culturally diverse neighborhoods and sights to see that indeed the city is a "world unto itself". And keep in mind that the 'burbs are having their own share of "city-like" problems of late like increasing gang-violence problems, tax-raising issues, environmental headaches and over-development.
[11. Don't get too complacent about the city's low crime rate. Things can change, very quickly. Just one or two highly publicized incidents will change perceptions 180 degrees.]
The crime in New York will likely go up if the economy starts to take a turn for the worse. The two are most often related. It's not like there's going to be a crime wave all of a sudden (Of course there's always some psycho or two around to do some serious spur-of-the-moment damage).
Sorry about the loooong post.
BMTman
[4. The Times is just a newspaper, a hopelessly ideological one at that. It is not a guide to life.]
Nobody should make any NYC paper as their "guide to life", but compared to the alternatives, The Post, and The News, the Times has more real 'news' to it than the other two rags put together.
The more I read the Daily News, the more respect I have for it. I consider it to be the only one of the three that isn't excessively biased (in that respect, the Post is even worse than the Times). To give a pretty clear example, it is not condescening toward minorities (in contrast to the Times) and does not treat them as violent thugs (in contrast to the Post). It considers them to be (drumroll please) real people with real concerns. If the News would reduce some of its sports and entertainment coverage in favor of more hard news, it would be a terrific paper.
[6. All the whining about Census "undercounts" doesn't obscure the fact that the Sunbelt won and New York lost. Get used to it.]
This may be the case THIS time around. Everything doesn't stay the same, including census counts (however, we'll have to wait for the next ten years unfortunately).
That's true. In all fairness, I should point out that New York's dismal Census results are a bit misleading. They cover the whole decade of the 1990's, which includes the very bad years early in the decade. New York's performance from about 1993 to 1999 would have been a lot better.
[9. Assuming that businesses will pay huge premiums to locate in New York because the city's full of art museums and symphony orchestras is less logical than believing in the Easter Bunny.]
Are you saying that businesses ONLY reason for staying in NYC is for the proximity to cultural centers? That might be PART of the reason, but maybe it has something to do with the location of Wall Street, the fact that NYC has some 93 different ethnic groups living in it, or perhaps that we have three major airports and a massive transportation network in place? Cultural attractions ain't gonna be the #1 priority for major companies to pay premium real estate taxes...pleazzzze.
Oh no, I certainly don't believe that most businesses care at all about cultural attractions when it comes to location decisions. There are many more "harder" factors that count. Unfortunately, some of the more out-of-touch-with-reality New Yorkers (hello Upper West Side!) DO believe that the city's cultural attractions are enough to overcome a plethora of economic disadvantages. It's truly ludicrous that some people are so misguided.
I'm being a nitpicker, but who cares.
When you put in Upper West Side, put it in quotes, this way you come out clearly as talking about the stereotypical UWS state of mind, and not the neighborhood which is very diverse and consists of middle class people, some of which have never been in a limousine.
Well I did get a very late start, but I had to do some railfanning today. I got the 2:28pm OB train from the Sea CLiff RR station. It was a very slow ride, even after Mineola, it seemed we didn't whiz through to Jamaica like we normally do. Must've been due to the snow, which was covering the tracks with only rails visible.
Got on an M-3 at Jamaica, which was quite loud on those concrete ties they have west of Jamaica (concrete ties are noisier than wooden ones). But it was pretty fast right on through Woodside.
The Penn tunnels had lots of snow in them (how did it get there?). Must've been from trains but subway tunnels don't have any snow in them. Man that tunnel is leaky, the engineer had the window wiper going. I think the ice near the eastern portal is from leaks.
Going through there fast, almost too fast. Still doing 55mph right after the slow down signal. Then the bell rings and the engineer takes his hand off the contoller. I guess what was next was the emergency brakes, because I had to hold on real tight as the train came to an abrupt stop. Wonder why that happened.
Then took a D down to Grand street. They were running express (was PLan 4 only for Saturday?). It was very fast ride to Grand even though we had a Hippo.
Chinatown's streets and sidewalks could've been cleared a little better of snow, especially around East Broadway.
Then a B going back, got off at 34th to get something to eat in Manhattan mall. Wow, Stern's has been ransacked, and the bathrooms, well they were absolutely pitiful. I will surely not go in there again, flooded and full of papers.
It was pretty dead in there, but the food court was busy.
Then took an F train to Roosevelt, which was running express and was pretty fast. Then a 7 train, another fast ride to Flushing w/the window. Seemed to be alot of hotrod T/O's out there today.
Flushing's streets and sidewalks were pretty clear, but nowhere is immune to slush. Flushing wasn't too busy, neither was Chinatown, but certain spots were very busy, usually music stores and markets.
The snow looked really nice on the 7 el.
An uneventful N21 bus ride home.
subway tunnels don't have any snow in them
On Saturday, Cortlandt St on the N/R had a few inches of snow on the station platforms where there were sidewalk grates above. (I thought they're usually offset or have something in between to avoid letting whatever's on the sidewalk come straight down into the station, but I guess the snow made it in anyway.)
96th Street on the west side has grates over the center of the express tracks. Some snow got in there too.
Shawn.
Could somebody tell me the car assignment of those lines that were involved in the MannyB diversion circa 1986-1988?
Happy New Year
As I recall:
(B) R27/R30/slant R40 (to 57/7 BMT, Qnsboro Plz, Astoria)
(N) R32/R68 (to Astoria)
(R) R32/R46 (to 71st/Cont. IND)
(D) R32/R68 (to 57/7)
This was the time (1987) that the N and the R swapped terminals, R's now were being shopped at Jamaica, beforehand they didn't have direct access to a shop.
N's went to Astoria, and relied on Coney Island. This is why there was a mulitude of assignments, the N's started running the new R68s, and the R's took the R46's normally assigned to the N out of Jamaica.
These cars all were pre-GOH, and the original car numbers, larger window pains, and axiflow fans dominated the cars under the R42s.
B: UpperR42, lower R40 slants, R32's, odd R27/30
D: Upper R42's, lower R42's, R40's until October, when R68's took over
N Forest Hills period-R46/R32, afterwards-R68, R32 (although R46's ran to Astoria for a time in the fall of '87)
Q Same as lower D, but used a few R32's and didn't get newer R68's until early 1987.
R Astoria: everything except R38's, R10's and 75' cars. This line had the most diverse fleet I've ever seen. After 5/87 terminal swap to Forest Hills: R46/R32 (same as the N).
R16's ran an occasional train on both the B and Astoria R prior to their retirement in the spring of 1987.
Fore a brief time in the autumn of 1987 odd car assignments abounded. A few green R10 trains ran on the K/upper B line, a few redbird R30's ran on the R to Forest Hills, plenty of R46's ran to Astoria on the N, and 2 or 3 sets of R68's ran on the F.
If I remember well....
>B: UpperR42, lower R40 slants, R32's, odd R27/30
R32's, odd R27/30 run on the upper side as well
>D: Upper R42's, lower R42's, R40's until October, when R68's took over
R32's on the upper (and lower side) and R68's on the upper side after fall 88
>N Forest Hills period-R46/R32, afterwards-R68, R32 (although R46's ran to Astoria for a time in the fall of '87)
>Q Same as lower D, but used a few R32's and didn't get newer R68's until early 1987.
I remember the narrow "Q" letter on the pre-GOH R40's
>R Astoria: everything except R38's, R10's and 75' cars. This line had the most diverse fleet I've ever seen.
>After 5/87 terminal swap to Forest Hills: R46/R32 (same as the N).
Weren't there R46 even before the switch? I'm not sure but remember seeing big green round "RR" signs.
>R16's ran an occasional train on both the B and Astoria R prior to their retirement in the spring of 1987.
>For a brief time in the autumn of 1987 odd car assignments abounded. A few green R10 trains ran on the
>K/upper B line, a few redbird R30's ran on the R to Forest Hills, plenty of R46's ran to Astoria on the N, and 2
>or 3 sets of R68's ran on the F.
R68's on the F! I guess living on the Upper west side then, I missed the opportunity.
I remember the last night for the eighth Ave. "K". They were turning around everything.
R 40 Slants' on the "C" and "K" (for the new daytime "B"s). Next morning, the "C" was
R10, R27-30 and R32. After that for a while, R10's, 27-30's still showing "CC"
signs and "HUDSON TERMINAL" were not unusual either. The R10's even did the "A"
once again for the last time. The "J" even though given a new terminal were still running
the pre redbird R27-30 Graffiti trains (and red birds). And the 5 still looked like canvases.
The R-10s had "Hudson Terminal" destination signs on their original curtains. I'm pretty sure the R-27/30 did as well, at least originally. I saw only one such train on the AA, and it was headed in the opposite direction from where I was standing, so I didn't get a good look at any of the signs.
It would be very interesting if there is any documentation of the last revenue run of a train of R-10s on the A. Larry Redbird R-33 would have that sort of info, if anybody did.
What will happen to these (underused as is) lines when the LIRR East-side connection via 63rd St to Grand Central Terminal is built - (circa- 2008)? Admittedly, it would be difficult to convert the lines to subway service (I think HuntersPoint uses the main line to Woodside anyway), but if we could build another 2 tunnels under 34th Street (under the LIRR/ConRail tunnels, like 63rd Street), we might solve the QB congestion mess. The LIC line, if I remember correctly doesn't really have highly accessible station platforms, but doesn't a 34th St line make sense? (I know, I know, after the Javits extension, the Second Avenue subway, etc.) I could be totally wrong here, but the LIC line into 34th Street shouldn't cost a fortune- it does run through Elmhurst, Maspeth, Woodside, many communities that has passengers that take a bus to transfer to the "E","F", and "7" currently to get into Manhattan. I guess building a set of tunnels under the existing 4 under 34th St and linking it to the LIC station at Vernon Ave would be time-consuming & expensive, though, huh? But a 34th St line with stops at 2nd Avenue, Lex, 5th Avenue, Penn Station (7th-8th Ave), and Javits/11th Avenue means the "7" extension to Javits wouldn't be necessary, and if the new sports stadium over the LIRR rail yards is built as Rudy wants, this would be the subway line to get there. Any thoughts?
There are some good uses for them - such as conversion to subway use with construction of connecting tunnels from the 63rd St or other lines. It depends on time tables for accomplishment; availability of Capital Plan funds; priority vs. other projects.
The LIC line to Jamaica has some good possibilities, one of which is light rail. Such a conversion would be compatible with the existing infrastructure, could connect with the 7 at Vernon-Jackson and with the E/J at Jamaica using short street running segments. The Hunters Point terminal should be left as is since it is in the middle of the Main Line and adjacent to the 7 station.
As I recall, the LIC line was mentioned in the past as one of the routes for the long-dead "suoper express" that would have connected with the 63rd St. tunnel. At the time, the neighbeorhoods it went through objected vehemently, even though it would have brought them new subway service.
Let's be careful about "neighborhoods objecting vehemently." More often than not this has meant a small subset of people objecting to it (which is their perfect right), pretending to represent the entire neighborhood (which is common, and, unfortunately, dishonest). Newspapers and TV stations usually do not bother to find out who and how many are really against it, or for it. This was demonstrably true with regard to AirTrain.
Also, the majority in a neighborhood may be against a specific plan, but not another. For example, an elevated train to La Guardia from the Ditmars terminal would generate considerable,sincere opposition; a new underground line offering new ADA stations in East Elmhurst would probably generate a lot of support.
"For example, an elevated train to La Guardia from the Ditmars terminal would generate considerable,sincere opposition;"
I grew up near Ditmars. I often hear about opposition to an extension of the N to LaGuardia. This puzzles me since only about 2 blocks of residents along 31st street from Ditmars to 20th Ave would be affected. The rest of the line could be sited through industrial and landfill areas along 19th Ave. And the net effect of an extension would be increased service to the Ditmars area via the center express track.
Wow! And here I was, a NIMBY skeptic, over estimating opposition to a project!
Peter Vallone doesn't like the elevated extension, ostensibly because it doesn't provide new subway service to East Elmhurst and other places. Some Astoria residents may be opposed because they're guaranteed a seat on the train when they get on at Ditmars. That's a good deal, and maybe some aren't willing to share.
I personally like a service which would offer a connection to people coming from eastern Queens, which the N train does not do. I wrote to Vallone about extending underground service from Steinway Street through East Elmhurst to the airport; he liked the idea and sent it to the MTA for comment. Underground service via 63rd St is another possibility. Please note that Vallone has enough clout to kill the project.
If this post appears twice, my apologies. I submitted an earlier one but the computer froze up.
The only problem is that the Steinway tracks are overused and the Astoria line tracks are underused.
Granted. I would also support a branch off the 63rd St tunnel.
Rebuilding the N train so that you have a new underground subway in Astoria and modifying the route so it serves more areas than just the airport (branch to Whitestone?) might be a good idea. Boston's rebuild of the old elevated Orange Line to an underground line was a hit with riders (watch reruns of St. Elsewhere on cable TV's Bravo channel to see the elevated line). Of course, that would be at least a $2 billion project.
Boston's New Orange Line carries lots of traffic, but only serves the neighborhoods of two former stations (Forest Hills and Green). Former patrons of Egleston, Dudley, Northhampton and Dover have to take buses to the new line. The MBTA promised replacement service from Dudley to downtown, light rail at first, then trackless trolleys and now a low emission, low floor, low efficiency, low capacity bus.
Without significantly increasing rapid transit mileage or ridership, the Southwest Corridor reroute significantly increased bus mileage. It would be like taking the #7 line and puting it on the Port Washington ROW. We got rid of the El, but rerouted its riders through hell!
You make an interesting point about the Orange Line's reroute. However, in our case here in New York, the underground routing alternatives would serve more neighborhoods than the elevated extension (but my fellow Subtalker's views about underused tracks are quite valid) and would encounter less political resistance.
MBTA has a lot of accomplishments - I hope the "can do" spirit will allow reintroduction of rail transit to the neighborhoods you speak of.
This puzzles me since only about 2 blocks of residents along 31st street from Ditmars to 20th Ave would be affected.
Yes, but the entire neighborhood, plus Peter Vallone, have rallied to oppose the extension. I remember at one of the public hearings for the N extension, some Astoria residents said the only acceptable way to extend the N was if the MTA tore down the entire Astoria el and replaced it with a subway. Most others simply tried to suggest other alignments in Queens, which prompted NIMBY objections from people living in those other areas. Basically no one wanted the extension through their neighborhood, even though almost everyone claimed to accept the idea of a subway line to LGA. Classic NIMBY.
I know this will never happen but...
Can't the MTA just use money generated by fares or some money that dosen't some from the government? Since the project wouldn't not be publicly funded then who cares what the people in that area think. They're not paying for it, so why listen to them complain? Is there some way these people can block construction besides refusing to fund it?
Shawn.
Remember that the MTA is part of the government, so there are restrictions that apply to them no matter what they do.
However, many of the restrictions that we are familiar with, and bureaucratic hurdles, are a result of federal funding. As I understand it, if a project goes through normal bureaucratic channels, and most of them do, to compete for federal transit dollars, it needs to have certain studies at certain steps. Major Investment Studies, Environmental impace statements, etc. (I believe that certain projects, like the new penn station project, are line items inserted into the federal budget and thus escape this review.)
IIRC, the southern NJ light rail project is being built without federal funds. The DVARP point of view is that they chose to do this because the whole thing is pretty much a boondoggle, so when they did ridership studies and cost analyses (which are part of the Major Investment Study) they would have looked terrible and the feds would not have given them money anyways. So they skipped the time, expense, and embarrassment, and funded the project themselves.
If DVARP is right, the studies would have showed that limited transit dollars could have spent elsewhere with better results. They say NJT forced the SNJ project through because politically they had to build something in south jersey and this project had less powerful nimby opposition than other, BETTER projects in south jersey. I guess it depends on your point of view - if you think its better to get something built, anything, in your area, you thing NJT is doing the right thing. If instead you need to spend your limited transit bucks in the best possible way, you think the project is worse than useless.
So perhaps the studies have some purpose. I think a lot of people here like to rant about the time and money being spent proving that the 2nd Ave. subway will be useful. I imagine most of the time and money on the 2nd avenue subway studies is going into engineering designs and the like, not environmental impact statements.
One thing is for sure, the 2nd ave subway, and the vast majority of the other projects we discuss here, won't happen without federal $$$. And we may all know that they make sense, but uncle sam is going to ask for a little proof before he sends $5B or so up to NYC. These studies are not going away...
(I'm reading Ambrose's book about building the transcontinental RR, Nothing like it in the world. It turns out that detailed studies of the route were crucial for getting congress and private investors to fund the building of the railroad. So one of the most important transportation projects in our countries history was delayed for years as the studies dragged out.)
I would have no argument with you on most of your points (I am not familiar with the South Jersey project).
Some engineering was done on the newest 2nd Av incarnation - but it is a two-track stubway - more work needs to be done to plan the full-length line. The ridership's there; the train isn't.
Again, I think we need to be careful about using the terms "everyone" and "no one" without careful research. The NIMBYs may show up to meetings and try to drown out everyone, but they, in most cases, do not represent the majority.
Peter Vallone's support is politically important. But he has indicated provisional support for other alignments. The MTA has to secure his cooperation, and with his help, secure some of the other pols.
With a careful plan, lots of public notification, lots of visible concessions (like rebuilding a block everyone wants rebuilt, landcaping a park, providing soundproofing to apartment buildings), and crossing t's and dotting i's, a rail link to La Guardia can get done. The real concerns should be realistically addressed; any leftover NIMBYs will then be run over, frankly. They should be allowed to vent, then told where to buy Metrocards (because they will be the first in line to use the subway when it opens).
We can't be afraid of NIMBYs - we just have to know how to deal with them.
Here's an idea. Build a new Ditmars station underground. The portal from the el would be just beyond Astoria Blvd. That stretch of 31st St. is industrial, so no NIMBYs need aply. Benefits -- new Ditmars station would actually be at Ditmars, rather that 1/2 block south as now, making bus connection better. El at Ditmars commercial area is eliminated. New station would have 3 tracks, so it would be an express stop for LGA extension. Residents along 31st would not have a new el overshadowing them. Then bring the extension back above ground at the ConEd plant at 20th Ave, run it on surface or as el along 19th Ave. industrial wasteland to LGA, with possible stations at Steinway St, and Hazen St. This route with a new short underground stretch at Ditmars has to be cheaper than new underground from R train at Steinway thru E. Elmhurst, and uses underutilized Astoria line trackage.
True, but it doesn't offer any connections to passengers coming from Queens.
Here's another part of this problem I didn't mention before. Claire Shulman has been pushing for new intermodal (subway-LIRR) terminals, better LIRR service for Queens, and has seen some of her projects stymied (though the completion of 63rd St will be a partial victory, and she did support AirTrain. An N extension would be seen clearly as a benefit to Manhattanites primarily, and would be a snub to Queens pols. Another route offering tangible benefits to Queens commuters would help garner critical political support more easily.
I hate to admit it sometimes, but if you have to offer solutions which are politically palatable, and an N extension might not be. And politics is what helps get you past the NIMBYs.
An N extension to LAG is accessible to the rest of Queens through the 7 transfer at QP ( though in a rather roundabout way). You're right about the need for compromise, though.
Not a bad idea. Unfortunately many will still oppose it because of the construction disruption....
Why wouldn't they object as the super-express would have provided no service to them.
Arti
Translate that message into: We're holding out our hands so you can pay us off (schoolyard bully style).
Actually, even a "super-express" can be of great value to a neighborhood:
1) You can always add stations later if communities demand them.
2) The improvements visited on decrepit ROW, including fixing fences, improving landscapes and soundproofing, rebuilding overpasses etc. can greatly improve the appearance and function of the neighborhood
3) Employment opportunities during and after the project.
"It doesn't stop here so it can't help us" is narrow-minded enough to be a great excuse for NIMBYs. Don't buy it, unless they offer you a piece of the Brooklyn Bridge along with it (two for one special).
I like light rail, so I should be open-minded about this. But in NY light rail is probably a waste of money because if you are going to revive a ROW leading to an area with a subway connection, you're better off (more cost effective) introducing a subway train, not a trolley, so you can take maximal advantage of that connection.
This is beginning to sound like the thread about the Philly area Metrorail.
We'll just have to wait and see if Vallone becomes mayor or a private citizen in November.
BTW, any chance that the anti-Green entering the White House will do something about all the trees that get chopped down to make paper for all the environmental impact statements that are required to prove that trains are less polluting than cars?
Hello all. Happy holidays and such. I'd just like to know the obcession with the "Juicers?" Subways ane the current model of electric locomotives do nothing at all for me. I don't see anything very much appealing about riding through an underground passage in semi-box cars. I'm much more partial to buses and diesel locomotives myself. My favorite bus, the always appealing and always reliable RTS and my favorite locomotive the GP-30.
Tell me about the NYC subway system and what's so great about it. Being from Houston and not traveling much, I've never experoenced any form of rail travel. Well, I did take the monorail at Disney World once, but i really wanted to take one of their buses (they operate an almost exclusively RTS fleet).
Thanks.
Jason
Cool, another GP-30 fan. I love that duck back. I myself prefer heavy rail electric locomotives.
You have expressed what seems like an aesthetic value. Fine. The view in a tunnel is certainly not exciting.
My POV: Electric locomotives and self-propelled units (MU) are capable of higher speeds and acceleration. Faster ride, more exciting, get there sooner. Diesel engines produce particulate smog, which exacerbates pulmonary illnesses and costs society in lost productivity and healthcare costs, a problem particularly in cities like Houston, where air quality is the worst in the nation.
Electricity for MU's (subway and commuter rail cars) can be generated in a variety of ways, including methods which avoid air pollution or at least minimize it, is more versatile, and efficient. One electric locomotive is usually much more powerful than a diesel, because diesel locomotives are diesel-electric anyway. The diesel engine does only one task: spin a generator. The diesel itself is "dead weight" which the train has to carry around. An electric locomotive drawing power from a catenary devotes much more of its own weight to placing traction on the rails. A classic example from history is a GG-1 electric locomotive racing at speed with a train that would have otherwise required three diesel-electric units to achieve a lower top speed.
Diesel-mechanical units (eg with selectable geared transmissions like trucks) are not practical with trains. Disel-hydraulic units have existed (Krause-Maffei? Other builders?) but have generally be judged as failures.
Well, I don't like smog and air pollution, but I find the "unreliable" diesel WAY more interesting than your bread and butter electric cars. I liked the GG-1, but they had been gone from Amtrak for a few years by the time I was even born. They don't make those anymore or any other intresting electric unit for that matter.
Most railfans LOVE steam engines and they threw HUGE clouds of black smoke into the air, so much as they were banned from NYC resulting in yes, the unrelaible but "cleaner" diesel engine. Diesel engines were also more relaible and cost effective than the steamers and I've read it's easier for frieght railroads to operate a fleet of diesels compared to electric units. Plus, there would be the cost of putting up electrical cable all over the country and the maintenence of that along with the rolling stock itself.
Also, diesel fuel is much cleaner than it was say 20-30 years ago and the locomotives get more powerful with each new model. Back in the 50s, there were experimental locomotives that could produce 6000+ hp and were NOT electric. They were however to costly and were scrapped early.
I used to be a steam fan, but now I prefer Electrics and Diesels. However steam still has the single unit power record. I have yet to see a single unit diesel or electric locomotive achieve Q2 power (8000hp). Of course the Q2 burned money.
HHP-8 is rated at 8000 hp, the GG-1s can do 8000+ for short periods, and I think there are a few > 8000hp continuous units out there.
BTW, I believe diesels are rated in the US at the prime mover, which means they don't really put out as much power as it seems, because of "transmission" losses. There's about 20% due to electrical generation, I believe
Etlectrics can accelerate also because they're lighter, and have an overload capacity that diesels don't have. Anyone who's used to the standard Amteak F-40 or GE units is in for a BIG surprise if they take the Acela express. And even the AEM-7 hauled units aren't bad. Show me an 8 car Amfleet train pulled by a SINGLE diesel up and down 1.5% grades with the kind of acceleration the AEM-7s (and the AEM-7ACs, which feel even better, IMHO) can do.
Oh yeah, and if you still don't get it, take NJT out of Hoboken, and hope they stop at MMC. The start from a dead stand still to track speed is a jaw dropper.
Taste is in the eye of the beholder. I was speaking to the efficiency and utility of electric motive power; however, I can certainly understand your appreciation of the nicer lines of the diesels. They have their own character.
You are correct when you cite improvements to disel locos. GE's Genesis series provides 4500 horsepower per engine, and better aerodynamics (so less drag), than previous Amtrak units built by General Motors. I think they look great, too - but in the Northeast Corridor, since we have the electric infrastructure already up, there is no reason not to use electrics.
In the 1950's, Krause-Maffei built gas turbine powered locomotives (essentially a jet engine hooked up to reduction gears), which achieved 6,000+ horses per unit. Also, Union Pacific RR used a disel equivalent of the Big Boy; they purchased locos with two 16-cylinder supercharged diesel engines, each loco putting out 6,600 horses. But these were jdged too difficult to maintain (for example, the gas turbine was fouled by the Bunker C oil used to fuel it).
You are correct when you say it is easier to use diesel locos in areas not already equipped with electric catenaries. However, that is an upfront cost savigs; there are places outside the Northeast Corridor where the upfront investment of installing catenaries is balanced by the savings achieved with electric locomotives (not to mention reduction in air pollution). So a benefit/costanalysis would need to be done to decide which strategy would pay off.
I wonder if Genesis locos can be retrofitted to run on cleaner-burning natural gas. If I am not mistaken, the same engine running on LNG produces a little less horsepower per unit fuel than diesel, but perhaps this difference would be marginal -or one could run the disel at higher RPM (and lower fuel efficiency) to compensate...
Diesels could be run on LNG or CNG because there are some low hp switchers that run on th alternative fuels. It'd be nice to see a rebuilt SD40 running on an alternative fuel as well though.
There ARE gas turbine units ... and they're LOUD! One of the problems with natural gas though is most railroads are in PROPANE country. No gas pipelines nearby. Just so's you know, Selkirk is not one of them - several nat gas pipelines (including the MAJOR one that feeds Con Ed) is located right here - Tennessee Nat Gas and others) ... but in railroading where the serious "national interest" stuff, shipping of UPS trucks and other freight, is done, there is no pipeline and this is the reason why smelly diesels are what provide traction away from "mass geese haulage" (ask any C/R exposed to old timers what "geese" are) in areas where electricity is available.
Don't mind me, I'm an old timey railroader who did "ta" duty and also got to do the real choochoos as well (never lost an ounce of respect for my fellow TWU brothers even if I turncoated and did BLE and UTU). In the open country, the mighty diesel is the ONLY way to get from hither to yon ... there ain't no 600DC in Voorheesville ... and ain't no 13kV or higher either ... you either make your own electrons in that GM or GE "still" or you push it with a lever ... them's the options.
There is nothing I would enjoy more than to see solar panels generate 180kW at night when we actually do "movements without benefit of Senator Goodman" ... sure hope nobody here takes any offense, but the realities of ensuring you folks down in NYC have food and water could not possibly be done without smelly diesels ... be grateful for what ya got - NYS brings electric dereg this coming year and up here in the Albany country area, we already own candles and fossil fuel generators we can setup outside the house. Suggest YOU do same. :)
No animals were harmed in this email though after eating our holly plants, "BAMBI MUST DIE!" ...
A lot of truth in all this but after travelling thru Europe for 6 weeks its nice to see what can be done with electrification when it becomes the plan. Admittedly they have a lot more density of population and service but then we DID have the Pennsy mainline and even in dsolate Montana there was the electric Milwaukee once. It can be done. But as I did on BN and MRL..make the best of what we have.
Alternative fuels are for loosers. I advocate cleaning things up from the other end. Plant more trees and recycle. Also trains are far more efficient than trucks so they have some leeway. I want to see EMD go back to 2-cycle engines. Long live the 710 and ditch this new H series crap.
Planting trees and recycling are great, but as to the rest, well, it sounds like your're speaking with your heart, not your head (that's OK- that's why we're all human and don't have pointed ears like Star Trek's Mr. Spock).
I just want my cake and the consumption thereof. My plan of more trees, more recycling and more mass transit lets us save the earth and use our big powerful V-8 SUV's yo get where transit can't take us. If we save the planet by forcing people to drive little CNG roller-skates we'd have a situation where the living would evny the dead.
How about banning private autos within a 30 mile radius of Philly and a 50 mile radius of New York, but subsidizing SUV's outside this area?
How would people who live in Philly be able to leave Philly if they don't have a car?
If you can't get there by train, it's not worth going to.
Unfortunitly the best way to railfan is by car. You can't take a picture of a train from the inside.
Some cute pictures can be had on curves...
>>>Alternative fuels are for loosers.<<<
Rather be a living loser than a dead winner. The great thing about alternative fuels is that one can operate vehicles without much damage to the enviroment as opposed to diesel and gasoline. I would like to see more trees and plants planted, but if there is a way to run trains where there are no wires, and operate a bus fleet without damaging the ozone, then I'll take it. Sure it will be expensive at first, but in the long run, our planet will thank us for it.
By the time the ramifacations hit we'll all be long dead of old age.
"I want to see EMD go back to 2-cycle engines"
Ever clean the airboxes on a 567 or 645? I'm talking serious oily filth there. I've done it, and it's no picnic. When the airbox is clean, you (and the 500 rags you used) are filthy.
Compared to a 567 or 645, an Alco, GE or Fairbanks-Morse engine is clean as a whistle after 15,000 hours.
The exhaust of a mis-fired steam engine is clean by comparison to an EMD 2-cycle.
Yes diesels pollute, but imagine how much more polltuion there would be if all of those TOFC's were being pulled by individual trucks?
And take everyone on the bus and put them each in a car, and see how much worse the smog gets.
Off Topic: Which was/is more powerful GG-1s or Toasters?
Dave
A GG-1 had c.4800 continious hp where an AEM-7 has either 6000 or 7000. However a GG-1 could overload to 8000 hp and it might have had more tractive effort becuase it had 12 motors on 6 axles.
A toaster (DC) can pull 7 cars up the hill into Jersey out of the tube from a stop; a GG-1 could pull at least 23 cars.
I thought a toaster could pull 9. One of my books rates the GG-1 at 4950 hp continuously and 8500hp overload with 70,000 pounds of TF. They rate an AEM-7 with 53,000 pounds of TF. FYI they also rate an FL-9 with 58,000 pounds of TF.
I posted something on this board last month about how many cars the AC rebuilt toasters could pull up the hill from a dead start, but the memory is one of the first things to go, IIRC. Or is it third? I think the DC toasters could haul 9 cars if they didn't stop in the tunnel.
I was 150 miles away from home on New Years Eve, and got 15 minutes on someone else's PC to check out SubTalk.
I was all set to post a greeting when I realized that I had no idea what my password was.
Talk about frustration!
I know I'm late, but, better late than never...
Happy New Year, Everyone!
Thank you
Can someone confirm for me if there's an odd couple made up of one GE R-32 and one R-38? Someone told me he thought he saw them married yesterday, and were not in separate pairs. Don't know of the car numbers involved, but I am interested to know if there is such an odd couple out there...
-Stef
The R38 class is the only car class to not have any married pairs that are out of numerical sequence.
Unless this happened recently, your friend was mistaken.
I took the C this weekend and there was a R32/R38 set train half each. So how could that be?
It's not unusual to see 32s and 38s mixed they do it all the time, on the C and A at least.
Peace,
ANDEE
And the C is only 8 cars long so it could be 1/2 and 1/2
Peace,
ANDEE
I think he ment the one car is a R32 & the other is a R38. Not half the train.
Thanks! That's exactly what I said. It isn't uncommon to see a train of R-32s coupled to a train of R-38s, but having an individual R-32 married permanently to an R-38 is one of those rare items.
Zman hasn't seen anything out of the ordinary, so I'll assume my friend was just seeing things.....
-Stef
Not so! I saw them as well, but in my suprise I failed to get the car numbers. I saw them just before Christmas weekend . Maybe the 20th or 21st of December last year.
avid
Be sure and let Wayne know so he can update his records.
Lou, you're late. That particular consist has been around for a month or more (a number of SubTalkers have seen it in action).
And 32's and 38's can certainly MU w/o any problems. Aside from minor interior and exterior detailings the cars are basically the same.
BMTman
I've always been intrigued by cars 3594-3595.
They both have an R32 exterior car body, but the inside looks exactly like an R38 with absolutely no interior signs of an R32.
Does anyone know the story behind these two unique cars?
They're the R-32 GE rebuilds. One pair is used for parts, the other 8 cars are in service. The A/C doesn't work and there are no parts to repair it, so these cars do the same vanishing act as the R33s during the summer.
If I read the R32 page on this site correctly, there were 2 competing designs for the interior of the R32. In 1964, the 2 competing designes were put on public display at 34th/6th, th a married pair representing each. The present design won. Perhaps those 2 cars represented the losing design, which was later used on the R38.
Just an educated guess.
Ok, after all the NY posts...I couldn't resist but to put this list together. I am not a permanent Boston resident, just a college student who has been there for a few years.
1.) There are not 25 letters in the alphabet, there are 26...please learn how to use the letter R correctly.
2.) While the "T" is historical, there are many problems with it. Its too slow and crowded at times, no real express track (yet they run express trains that must slow down inside the stations), but id does get you where you wanna go....eventually. Hopefully the addition of triple car trains on the green line will solve a couple of problems.
3.) The Bid Dig will not solve all travel problems, and it will still be quite awhile before it opens. Boston's streets are still way to narrow, there are to many confusing "circle" intersections, and it's both hard and sometimes expensive to get a place to park.
4.) You better pray that Breda will get the type 8s not to be lemons, even though they should have purchased more kinki-sharyo vehicels instead, which now come in low-floor style. But no, the MBTA went with the lowest bidder, and look what happened.
5.) Stop pretending to be NYC...cuz ur not. I wonder where the tree lighting at Prudential Tower idea came from, or why we should be excited about Boston's sports teams.
6.) Speaking of sports, I understand if our fellow Red Sox fans hate the Yankees...but really, wouldn't it help your team when they are playing NY to chant something positive like "Let's Go Red Sox" instead of just "Yankees Suck?" Also, try to be nicer to Yankee fans...even if they are wearing a Yankee hat or shirt (sorry Dand124). New Yorkers should give the same respect to Red Sox fans as well.
Ok, again, this is meant to be all in good fun.....but I am interested in other fellow subtalkers comments.
Peace,
Nick
As a long-time New Yorker who truly believes NY is the Capital of the world, I like Boston, and I like the T. It is too slow, and there is no real express service. But it got me where I wanted to go, and I'm glad to hear about the new Silver Line and placing more of the trolley service underground (with ADA improvements). I hope MBTA keeps up the good work.
[I like the T. It is too slow, and there is no real express service.]
Ron, are you only talking about the "Green line" ? because the other colors typically do 50 MPH ... can't do that in NYC !
As for the Green line ... ever been out to Riverside ? I like the hopping around like a jack rabbit in heat.
Mr t__:^)
I like the Green Line. The T is slow because there is no true express service. Yes, you can get 50 mph trains. But they have to accelerate there and decelerate to stop. So the average running speed, including stops, might be only 15-20.
To illustrate the effect of this, consider: Assuming perfect track conditions and all green signals under Central Park West. If I am on an express train with top speed of 35 mph, and you are on a local train with top speed of 50 (but you have to make every station stop, and average dwell time per station is 20 seconds), which one of us will get from Columbus Circle to Harlem first?
Understand your point, but next time you're up there try the Red line going to Braintree ... nicely spaced stations. Or the Blue line going to the airport ... again some long runs amoung the weeds (kind of reminds me of my favorite museum :-)
Mr t
Know each one well - and I like the Blue Line run to Wonderland. Hope they extend it.
Yes - but the changes in the Blue Line signal system in recent years are abominable! Uphill Grade Timers? In the good old days, once the red at the pump room cleared, you had solid green to Maverick unless the station was occupied, you got your momentum for the 5% grade and could coast into the station! Now it is painful to watch a train which should be under full power having to come to almost a complete stop on the steepest grade in the system, and then crawl into the station. [Only NStar (formerly Boston Edison) likes this! $$$ :)] The situation repeats at Airport, where again a timer slows the train unnecessarily as you climb the grade. The third atrocity is the string of six red signals approaching Wonderland, closely spaced and all either timers or home signals! Back in the old days there were two 20 mph timer approaching the platform, the first cleared to the second and the second clearted to a yellow onto the platform. The present system is overkill!
It will all be for moot when we get CBTC. Come on New York....get it right the first time on the Canarsie. That's the one the T is watching.
6.) Speaking of sports, I understand if our fellow Red Sox fans hate the Yankees...but really, wouldn't it help your team when they are playing NY to chant something positive like "Let's Go Red Sox" instead of just "Yankees Suck?" Also, try to be nicer to Yankee fans...even if they are wearing a Yankee hat or shirt (sorry Dand124). New Yorkers should give the same respect to Red Sox fans as well.
Don't you know, Red Sox fans are genetically unable to be civil to opposing teams!
Hell, they can't even be civil to the RED SOX! You expect the opponents to get respect?
no only teams in from New York that stole all of our pleyers.
[3.) The Bid Dig will not solve all travel problems, and it will still be quite awhile before it opens.]
Speaking of this ... understand they had a party down there ... something about folks running on the ROW between a couple of stations
Mr t__:^)
They had a tour of it on Sunday, here's the story from the Boston Globe,
BIG DIG TOUR
Peace,
ANDEE
Great article. I believe there is a website devoted to it - with pictures, movies and construction updates, similar to the AirTrain website maintained by the Port Authority. If I am not mistaken, it is www.bigdig.com
1) Thay alsa naad to lan that tha aar atha vaals than ah.
3) Traffic circles are the greatest invention in traffic control. They might take a bit more thought than a traffic light, but anyone w/ 3 brain cells can learn to navigate them. On average you will spend less time waiting at a traffic circle and they have very few fatal car accidents.
OK Rookie, we'll take them one at a time!
1. We do have a regional accent. BTW, are you from toidy toid street or Lon Giland?
2. The Green Line is a trolley line and doesn't even have the capability to be a subway line. (It's the one we let the college students ride on! That's why nobody really cares that the type 8's aren't here.)
3. The Big Dig will not solve all the traffic woes, but it will help. Now that the good people of NY had the sense to vote for someone from outside of NY, you too might get some federal money for a big project.
4. The MBTA had no choice but to go with the lowest bidder. It's a state law. Again, nobody is really excited about the lack of new Green Line cars ...... they're just being used by college students and some displaced New Yorkers who live in Brookline and Newton.
5. I think you'd have a tough time proving that tree lighting came from NYC. But the concept of First Night Celebrations, (no boose, no flooze, good for the kiddies) did start in Boston back in the seventies.
6. The Red Sox will do a lot better when the New York family that has owned them for the last seventy years, finaly sells!
Oh and how come, if New York is so great, you have to "paahk your caah" here in Boston for four years when it comes time for college???
Really I want to thank you New Yorkers for coming to live in Boston, well Brookline, Brighton, and Newton, and keeping those trolleys full. But, we are keeping the real subways for ourselves. Sorry!
Yo, In philly its pronounced 33rd schtreet. And when you paak your caar don't forget to paat at the gaabage. Gaad Gad.
Now that the good people of NY had the sense to vote for someone from outside of NY, you too might get some federal money for a big project.
This was a mistake....we all know that the carpet bagger just wants to rule the world, and now she is a step closer to doing so.
. The MBTA had no choice but to go with the lowest bidder. It's a state law. Again, nobody is really excited about the lack of new Green Line cars ...... they're just being used by college students and some displaced New Yorkers who live in Brookline and Newton
It's too bad if that was state law...perhaps it needs some modification. As for not caring about college students, let me remind you that there are 45 colleges in and around Boston, which 250,000 college students attend. The only annpying part is BU using the B line as their student shuttle.
Oh and how come, if New York is so great, you have to "paahk your caah" here in Boston for four years when it comes time for college???
I will agree with you on one aspect here....Boston is a better place to go to college, since there are so many colleges and college students.
By the way, I am from CT, and therefore have career speech :) -Nick
Nick, I'm also from CT ... what part of the state ?
As for living ... I still like Boston for that ... it was a real treat for me to overnight on Beacon Street last summer ! However, the colored lines in Boston can't hold a candle to NYC ... even though I did enjoy riding them again.
Mr t__:^)
Nick, I'm also from CT ... what part of the state ?
I'm on the shoreline in the southwestern part of CT...u? -Nick
I grew up in a little town called Haddam Neck ... 50 families in the summer time. The big deal of the YEAR was the Country Fair on Labor Day. The "Airline" route still existed when I was growing up (NH to Boston via Middeltown, Willimantic, Putnam, etc.). Also the line along the CT river went from Saybrook to Middletown (the portion north to Hartford had already be cut back). I got introduced to mass transit in Boston in the 60s ... lived on the Green line (Beacon Street) ... used it to go to work & school.
Mr t__:^)
I have relatives in East Haddam...sometimes I take the shoreline east to old saybrook to visit them.
I was introduced to mass transit in NYC back in the early to mid 1980s when I would visit another relative in Queens....I was fascinated by the subways from day one!
I'm in my 3rd year at school in Boston now. For 2 years I went to school near the green line near the B, C, and D lines...but now I've transferred and am closer to the Mattapan station. -Nick
What a SMALL World ... ever been to the Opera house in East Haddam ?
My mom goes there frequently with her brother & his wife. Had a cusin who did set design there before he went to clown school in Fla. Now he's doing computer graphics. Another SubTalker & friend of mine went to Moodus for a Jazz concert ... this same uncle was in the audiance ... they didn't meet.
Too bad we didn't meet up on the T party last year.
One of the great pleasures for me is all ther SubTalkers that I have met, e.g. when 8th Ave Steve makes a joke I can SEE the smile on his face, or the one that heypaul does.
Mr t__:^)
Never been to the opera house, but certainly I have seen it. I have been to Gillete Castle, Devil's Hopyard, and the Essex steam train/river boat though.
I wish that I was at the T party....I thought everyone was meeting at Park Street at 10 AM, and nobody was there at 10:20 so I left (cuz i got there a few mins late myself figuring i missed everyone). But it turns out nobody showed up until 10:30 :( -Nick
BTW, ever hear the Moodus noises ?
Mr t__:^)
Although Boston may have the rep, it's a not-so-known secret that the Philly area has more colleges and college students than any other city in the country. Boston just seems like such a college town because its so much smaller, and hence has a higher proportion of college students.
2. The Green Line is a trolley line and doesn't even have the capability to be a subway line. (It's the one we let the college students ride on! That's why nobody really cares that the type 8's aren't here.)
The Green Line to Riverside may as well be commuter rail! It amazes me how there's such little capacity on such a far-reaching line.
6. The Red Sox will do a lot better when the New York family that has owned them for the last seventy years, finaly sells!
Sorry - you're cursed, and you just have to live with it :)
Oh and how come, if New York is so great, you have to "paahk your caah" here in Boston for four years when it comes time for college???
Because the New York area, for having so many people, such an extensive transportation system, and so much money, is severly lacking in colleges and universities (note sarcasm).
The Green Line to Riverside may as well be commuter rail! It amazes me how there's such little capacity on such a far-reaching line.
It was a commuter rail line. It was converted in 1959 from an abandoned Boston & Albany branch. It has carried more passengers as a streetcar/light rail line than it ever did as a railroad.
The "capacity" problem is related to a power problem. The Type 7's & 8's (if they ever get there) draw more power than a 3 car train of PCC's. The T has to beef up the power before three car trains of LRV's can be operated regularly.
The Red Sox will do a lot better when the New York family that has owned them for the last seventy years, finaly sells!
Tom Yawkey saved the Red Sox and made them into a good team. without him they would not be playing in boston now
I agree about the express tracks. If you read my trip report, I mentioned I was on an express green line which wasn't that great.
The transfer between the Green and Red lines is Park Street, not Pawk Street.
And when walking across the Congress Street Bridge, I must have seen one huge construction crane for every three tall buildings. Is this the Big Dig or the Big Inconvienence?
Stop pretending to be NYC...cuz ur not
good
no real express track (yet they run express trains that must slow down inside the stations)
Thats because when you have an express track
there arre stations that don't get served by the express trains. people in boston go nuts when one part of the city gets better service than they do. People who use the savin hill stop on the red line have been trying to get braintree trains to stop there since it opened.
but really, wouldn't it help your team when they are playing NY to chant something positive like "Let's Go Red Sox" instead of just "Yankees Suck?"
the yankees stole the red sox when a new yorker bought the sox and sold babe ruth and the rest of the Red Sox start to the Yanks. 3/4 of the yanks teams of 20s were on the sox in the 1910s.
but really, wouldn't it help your team when they are playing NY to chant something positive like "Let's Go Red Sox" instead of just "Yankees Suck?"
The yankees are on such a high horse they need to be constantly reminded how much they really suck. Also if p is the opposite to q NOT p is the same as q. Therefore "Yankees Suck" is equilivent to "Red Sox Rule".
there are to many confusing "circle" intersections
Yeah, but one of them is Leverett Circle :-)
(See my email address if you need an explanation.)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
If there are any working motormen on this list, I need some info badly:
I expect to be called soon from the new TA motorman's job list--at least I think it'll be soon, because I had a pretty low list number. Had a "survey" test a couple weeks ago; no one offered any info there and have heard nothing since. My phone calls fell on deaf ears. Anyone know how long they usually take to put people to work?
Question #2: Excluding the one week training class, how long do they generally allow for learning the job itself?
Is the time allowed sufficient?
Question #3: Are new motorman placed on an extra list?
Question #4: How do they treat the extra men? Working now for a RR (which shall go nameless) where extra people often get split days off and have to stand by on their rest days.
Question #5: Is there a bidding system for positions?
Question #6: If I would in fact start out on an extra list, do regular positions frequently come up, and does a new man have much chance of getting one?
Question #7: What other positions would I have access to from a motorman's job, either through bidding, or whatever system there is? Any promotion possibilities?
Question #8: Is there much overtime?
Question #9: Heard the city has a good package. Can anyone fill me in on vacation, sick and personal days, retirement?
Question #10: How are the working conditions, in general?
I really appreciate any advice you can give; it's impossible to get any info from NYCTA.
Thanks,
nyhal
I really appreciate any advice you can give; it's impossible to get any info from NYCTA
You have to read the board. All of your questions have been answered at one time or another during the past month.
Tom
Even though Old Tom was right, I'll answer your questions since you appear to be a new SubTalker.
>>>Anyone know how long they usually take to put people to work?<<<
Not being mean, but don't sweat it. They'll call you when they'll call you. That's what everyone else did.
>>>Question #2: Excluding the one week training class, how long do they generally allow for learning the job itself?<<<
3 months in the IRT, 5 1/2 months IND/BMT.
>>>Question #3: Are new motorman placed on an extra list?<<<
Yes. In the IND/BMT, you're on the "extra extra" list for 2 years.
>>>Question #4: How do they treat the extra men? Working now for a RR (which shall go nameless) where extra people often get split days off and have to stand by on their rest days.<<<
They treat you OK. You can start work in any of the 4 boroughs (no S.I) on any given day. You'll always get two consecutive days off. Most likely Tues/Wed or Wed/Thur when you start. And when you're off, you're off.
>>>Question #5: Is there a bidding system for positions?<<<
You pick jobs according to seniority. It'll be two years(IND/BMT) before you get to pick a job.
>>>Question #6: If I would in fact start out on an extra list, do regular positions frequently come up, and does a new man have much chance of getting one?<<<
There is something called a "vacancy bid" that occurs once a pick (a pick usually lasts 5 months) when some jobs have been vacated due to promotions, retirement, etc. A new man has very little chance of getting one of these jobs as this bid also goes in order of seniority.
>>>Question #7: What other positions would I have access to from a motorman's job, either through bidding, or whatever system there is? Any promotion possibilities?<<<
The only three promotional titles available to a train operator is: Train Dispatcher, Yard Dispatcher(hard to get), and Train Service Supervisor (oversees T/O's and Conductors). All promotional positions are accessed via civil service exams.
>>>Question #8: Is there much overtime?<<<
OT is extremely limited as far as working one of your days off. OT is usually achieved by working an open job after your regular job has been completed. However, most jobs have some built in OT in which you can get 9, 10, or even 11 hours pay in a specific day (these are called "penalty jobs"). You'll work harder, but you'll be guaranteed more $$$ since you'll have a longer work day. Anything after 8 hours is paid at time & a half.
>>>Question #9: Heard the city has a good package. Can anyone fill me in on vacation, sick and personal days, retirement?<<<
Vacation: 2 weeks in first 2 years of employment, 4 weeks from 3-15 years, 5 weeks with 15+ years. Vacation days can not be carried over into the following year.
Sick: 12 days a year, unused sick days are carried over into the following year.
Personal days (AVA's): On every public holiday, you may either receive 8 hours extra pay on top of your regular pay (total 16 hours pay), or you may bank an AVA in lieu of the 8 hours extra pay (8 hours pay + AVA). You also have an option of trading one week's vacation (5 days) for 5 AVA's at the beginning of the year. On Jan. 1st, you also receive one personal day automatically.
>>>Question #10: How are the working conditions, in general?<<<
The TA leaves you alone which is great, unless you mess up and then they really smack you. Also when some administrative problems arise such as a short check, etc., it can be a pain in the neck but you'll get used to it.
Good luck.
General note to everyone: If there are any more queries about working for the TA, please send them to the link at the bottom of this answer.
Your phone calls fall on deaf ears, because everyone in your shoes is trying the same thing, and the people you are asking don't know the answers.
#1 How long they usually take to put people to work?
It depends. It was 4 years between the time I took the CR test and the time I was hired (I was #800). It was 4 months between the time of the TO test and when I got the promotion (I was #46).
#2 Excluding the one week training class, how long do they generally allow for learning the job itself? Is the time allowed sufficient?
There is NO 1 week training class. Where does everyone get this peculiar idea from? If you go into the A division, your training will be 3 1/2 months. If you go into the B Division, it will be 5 1/2 months. If you can soak up everything they tell you and have areasonable hand-eye co-ordination level, yes it is sufficient. More time would be better, but that's not an option.
#3: Are new motorman placed on an extra list?
Yes, and you should expect to be there for at least 2 years.
#5: Is there a bidding system for positions?
Yes. About every 6 months, all jobs go up for a new pick. The pick is carried out in seniority order. Yard and switching jobs tend to go first, followed by penalty (pay over 8 hours) jobs.
#6: Do regular positions frequently come up, and does a new man have much chance of getting one?
Shortly after the pick starts any open jobs will come up for bid. If you bid on one and no one ahead of you does, you get it. Chances vary - I bid on one and lost to someone a thousand slots ahead of me; my classmate bid on another one and got it.
#7: What other positions would I have access to from a motorman's job, either through bidding, or whatever system there is? Any promotion possibilities?
From Train Operator, you can promote to Train Dispatcher, Train Service Supervisor and Yard Dispatcher. From those titles you may be picked to go into Management.
#10: How are the working conditions, in general?
Ain't no one gonna answer this one. Ask anybody who works there and they will give you a different answer from anyone else. It's job. In the winter, you're cold; in the summer, you're hot. They give you a rule book, play by the rules and they usually can't do anything to you.
For your other questions, please go here.
I think the one week thing is the week you get paid the $5.50 an hour. I think that is why everyone believes there is a standard week training followed by the different times for each Division.
Went by my local hobby shop last week and picked up the "Premiere Issue" of Railroad Explorer. Nice collection of winter photos, BUT
- Their policy is NO news will be included.
- Photos aren't going to be all new.
Wonder how long they'll last featuring "Trains of Northeastern North America".
Rapid Transit included ... someone putting a canoe on a RDC; GG1s in AmTrak colors; F-40 in a Vt snow scene. Since I'm a Swamp Yankee I liked the photos.
Mr t__:^)
For some time now I've been interested in finding a book on the Electrics used by the NYNH&H from NYC to NH.
At my local hobby shop I found NH Div, Murry Hill to Cedar Hill by A. Sherry, 1988. Includes: lots of shots of EFs & EPs (box cabs & covered wagons) ... some of the early Alco, F-M & GE diesels ... the MUs before the Cosmapolitian.
AND all three of the "Light Weights", i.e.
- John Quincy Adams by F-M
- Roger Williams (Hot Rod RDC) by Budd (BTW, Danbury has one of them)
- Daniel Webster by B-L-H
Question 1: What is the real name for the Pullman Std "Washboards" ?
Question 2: What is the real name of the Osgood-Bradleys that preceded them ?
Mr t__:^)
Real name of the "Washboard" cars? m.u. cars
Real name of the Osgood-Bradley cars? Really old m.u. cars
I think they were also called "MUT's" by the NH railroad crewpeople (Multiple Unit Trains).
Actually, in those days, rail equipment didn't need to be named. All of it was specifically built for each road, and people used the trains whether they had a fancy name such as "Cosmopolitan" or not. The naming trend seemed to take place int he late 1960's when ridership was waning a bit.
I believe the name "Washboards" was originally railfan oriented, and was used to describe the corrugated sides of the 1954 fleet of NH m.u. cars.
Here's a couple more books you might find NYNH&H electric operations information from:
"When The Steam Railroads Electrified" by William Middleton
"New Haven Power" by Al Stauffer
"New Haven Railroad: The Final Decade" by Scott Hartley
"Classic Power No. 9: New Haven EP-5 Jets" by Joe Cunningham
Sorry to say, all of the above are out of print and have been so for years. I would suggest, however, that you check out train shows as sometimes people have copies of these books for sale. You may also check libraries in the NYC area, perhaps they have copies.
Thanks for the input, I've made a note of it.
Mr t__:^)
Thurston,
All of the NH electric cars, including the "washboards" were referred to as MUT's (multiple unit trains).
Pullman Standard took over the Osgood Bradley company in the early 1940's. OB had taken over the Wason Co many years earlier. I believe that the Pullman Standard division that built the "washboards" was the location of the old Osgood Bradley. Standard Steel Car Co also built MUT's for NH in the old days.
I think that the book New Haven Power mentioned by Steve, was actually written by J. W. Swanberg. and published by Staufer. I'm not real sure that it is out of print, because I saw Staufer selling it at the last York meet. It is a terrific book (big at 600 pages), but an expensive one as well, somewhere around $80.00.
Pullman-Standard took over Osgood Bradley before 1940, as Baltimore Transit was buying PCC cars from Pullman in 1939, so it had to be before that date. The OB plant was in Worcester, and the Boston MTA bought all their PCCs save one from Pullman. Kept the money in Mass.
Karl & Dan ... many thanks for the additional input.
So the NH didn't assign a number to the MUTs like MU-6 as they did to the EF & EPs ?
I feel bad that the only NH equipment I became familiar with when I was growing up was the diesels in freight operations. Of course I lived in the middle of the state (next to a big SWAMP) far away from the electric operation. I used to regularly see a few cars rumbling up the Connecticut river or across the overpass in East Hampton. Both lines no longer see service, although Valley RxR runs steam as far north as East Haddam and P&W comes a little south of Middletown.
Mr t__:^)
I had an uncle who lived in New Haven and worked for the New Haven in train service many years ago. I have his keys and pocket watch.
I have a neighbor here who is the ultimate New Haven modeler in HO. He is formerly from Providence RI, and has all but recreated the NH in a full basement train layout. I believe that he also worked for the NH. He seems to know everything there is to know about the NH, and even builds HO operating models of their old steam engines. I had never met anyone before who could build operating models!
Karl, I enjoyed your reminising ... do your friends know of the
New Haven RxR Hist & Tech Assoc ?
They publish a newsletter that comes out a few times a year. One or two very nice color photos & lots of steam & text on what used to be, e.g. Putman CT used to be a major hub.
Mr t__:^)
Pity you missed seeing the neat assortment of traction the New Haven had. I used to photograph between Woodlawn and Wakefield...not to mention the Central"s collection. The New Haven had a dandy assortment of electrics until mid 1960 or so..Boxcab EP-3, streamline EP-4, the diesel-looking EP-5; coaches of 3 eras in each train, then the Washboard and the steel MU's and among the steels I believe one train of Clerestory roof MU's a day came thru.
Traction watching was grand back then... each line with the varied equipment. Only the IND and the DL&W had basically one type of car, almost the same for Pennsy unless you watched freights too.
He is a retired widower and is not on the internet.
I would think that he would belong, but I'll tell him about it anyway to be sure.
He literally lives and breathes New York, New Haven & Hartford. He is about the New Haven the way we are about New York City Transit! His basement railroad is equipped for the New Haven circa 1950.
One of my ambitions is to model the New Haven mainline, complete with four mainline tracks, with a NYC subway flavor to it. I'm heavily into NH rolling stock myself, whatever AC Gilbert churned out in American Flyer. I've got a bunch of the Little Joe NH electrics they made; several sets of orange-striped passenger cars; and several each of dual AA NH and single Alco A NH diesel engines. Not to mention the NH Pacific steamers they made along with the NH Pullmans.
And here I thought all along you we a IND type of guy. We now have another thing in common, as there is still a s[ecial place in my hart for the good old NH ... that's what makes Branford even more special for me ... have to go by NH to get there, it near my mom's place & they have this neat group of old subway cars that OPERATE ... next best thing to Heaven or what ?
Mr t__:^)
Oh, I'm still an IND man at heart. I lived in Connecticut for 7 years, 4 1/2 in Cheshire, which isn't all that far from New Haven. Plus I like the looks of Gilbert's NH diesel paint scheme. If I ever do build my dream layout, I still have to decide whether to go with catenary or not. One of my NH electrics is rigged to draw current through its pantographs, but because of the way I did it, a short train would have to be the rule. Otherwise, the current draw could melt the plastic.
A-N-D with you interest in Branford, you'll have to include some of those Connecticut Company yellow cars ! 775 would go nicely on your layout ... intercity (she did NH to West Haven before being currently assigned to East Haven to Branford), big car, she zips along nicely & has a great horn (we toot toot a lot). She would love to interchange with your MUs.
You must come a see what they did to the Quonset Hut ... all yellow now. They must have more then half a dozen Conn Co cars completely restored now. They are trying to turn the place into a "museum" ... they'll still let us play, but guest will do more walking around & less riding. The 3/4 Ton Crew was part of the show last year ... "see those guys over there, they're resoting a R-17, that's a subway car from New York City, mfg. in 1955, came to the museum in 1987 ... yada yada yada)
Mr t__:^)
Steve, Lionel committed a "mortal sin" with the Little Joe nomenclature on that engine. Since they had a version of it painted Milwaukee they called it a Little Joe. The real Little Joe had a vaguely similar double ended carbody [Milwaukee loco] but would have looked more like a New Haven EP4. BTW the South Shore had some Joes, since you were a South Bend man once. Unfortunately the Joe was for Josef Stalin as they were originally uilt for Russia but a US gov't embargo stopped the shipment.
Lionel sure misled alot of younger model rails. The real nickname for those engines was "jets", officially they were EP-5.
For a model New Haven don't miss having a couple of els to cross over it. Pelham and what hadbeen 3rd ave. anyway. Then you need model Low-V's, SMEE's etc. I wish I hadn't given away my New Haven EP-2, EP-3, and EP-4 drawings...that would have been a loco to scratch build in "S". I had them 38 years and never used them.
Ah yes the EP-5 Jets are a classic, like the C-Liners, FA/PAs or the Centipede. I also like the RS-2 & have one in NH colors. Of course a FL9 would be a must ! Saw a Centipede in "O" at a Westchester open house last Spring ... impressive.
Mr t__:^)
Yes, the South Shore had three Little Joes. They had to rewire them for 1500-volt DC operation, plus the m. u. components were removed. One of them is at IRM in Union, IL; I saw and photographed it during my 1996 visit.
The Soviets ordered 20 GE locos in the late 40s, then the government banned the shipment after the Berlin blockade, IIRC. GE built the locos anyway to the Russian specs (3300 VAC) and sold them at bargain basement prices. Milwaukee-St. Joe bought 12 of them; NH bought 5, and the South Shore got the other three.
Right now that NH layout is a pipe dream due to space constraints. Someday, hopefully. I also thought about giving it an IND flavor, but realized there wouldn't be enough room for one flying junction, let alone three.
If NH bought some did they ever run them? For the life of me I can't remember seeing any in real life or in photos. There was I believe an Ef3a which was the freight version of the EP4. If I've missed this piece of rail history please advise!
Yes the EF-3a & EP-4 are both covered wagons (freight vs. passenger) ... very high hood vs. the Jets, i.e. EP-5s. They were also doubled enders like the Jets.
Mr t__:^)
True. Now that my mental computer has clicked a day later IIRC the remaining Joes went to Brazil..Sao Paulista RR or something like that?So that leaves the EP4 and EF3a the only covered wagon, many wheels artic's on the NH that I can think of. Of course my favorites were the EP3 boxcab and had I seen them I'd have liked he EP2 boxcabs.Back to Milwaukee thet kindly obliged with the long departed Westinghouses, western EP2/3 lookalikes.
I also have the Lionel-reissued NH Electric in S gauge; didn't go for the Milwaukee-St. Joe. I'm still waiting for them to issue it in South Shore livery; I'd grab one in a heartbeat. Or two. Or three.
Sao Paulista RR or something like that?
Another CP. A previous post in the thread pointed out this Companhia Paulista electric locomotive photo page.
The South Shore bought the first three and Milwaukee bought twelve, but I don't believe New Haven had any. Not sure what happened to the other five.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I stand corrected. The NH must have had something closely resembling a Little Joe, then.
Yes, put that way, you're right. I would say that the EP-4's and EF-3's did "resemble" the Little Joes in certain aspects. However, the Little Joes had platforms at the ends, whereas the EP-4 and EF-3 series did not. The shape of the carbody and general configuration could lead one to think there was some family resemblance.
corrections
1. original order for 50 units
2. 5 of the 20 built before Truman cancelled the deal were sold to Fe Pa Sa the Sao Paulo State railways (Brazil)
comment They were truly awesome.
OK, so that explains the following page of photographs that I stumbled on while searching for information earlier tonight. The page linked from the picture of the unit being unloaded mentions "Little Joe" (that's the one that originally showed in my search) but I assumed that it was something to do with a museum.
Companhia Paulista de Estradas de Ferro Electric Locomotives
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Fantastic find! After Interurban, Subways and RDCs, Electric locs are dear to my heart. Thanks for sharing.
avid
The NH had box cabs like these, EF-2, EP-2 & EP-3a from Baldwin-Westinghouse.
Mr t__:^)
Correct me if I'm wrong but I thought the EP-3's were GE's?? For those who may not know they were the test bed for the Pennsy's GG-1 incidentally.
In Allen Sherry's book he says the EF-3a were GE, EF-3b were B-W and EP-3a was B-W. The EP-4 & 5 were GE.
Mr t__:^)
Hm, I never knew the Soviets originally ordered 50 of them. My only source was from South Shore: The Last Interurban. It mentions those suckers were the most powerful electric locos ever built at the time.
Speaking of NH Electrics, I just received my Lionel NH and Reading MUs. I haven't openned the box yet. I'm waiting, letting the anticipation build. I'm want the adrenalan pumping. I what those butterfly in my stomach. To enhance the high, I cruised this sites Metronorth and CDOT segements.
There are a lot of very good photos of "washboards, and other MUs" Nice food for tought for future Lionel, MTH or kitbashed items.
Thanks to David and all the other fans for the great photo shots of history.
avid
The New York Westchester and Boston had a nice car style that would make for a nice Proto type for "O" gaugers and other gaugers too.
Or maybe K-Line or Lionel will just issue what they currenty put out for interubbans with a new paint job and Road name?
avid
You could double up and use that NYWB MU coach for an Erie loco-hauled commuter car as well. Give the manufacturers the idea? I think NYWB had a center door? Maybe not but the bodies were about the same.
Yes, I noticed it in some photos on this site. The Lionels have small rain gutters above the doors on the roof. here's the kicker, there is one in the center of the car, but NO DOOR! The arched windows on the side would look terrific. To bad the photos didn' show color.
Anyone know what color they were? Where did they fially end up after the company folded. NH maybe?
avid
According to a couple books on the NYW&B, their car fleet was taken over by the New Haven, given a quick rehab (i.e. remove the center door and electrical equipment) and used in commuter service behind locomotives in the Boston area.
Color scheme? I was always under the impression that they were a dark drab green (like many railroads' equipment in those days) with gold lettering.
Belated thanks for the information.
avid
Huh???? That's the first I EVER heard of the New Haven getting any of the "Little Joe" electrics.
The Paulista Railway in Brazil got some. Now where did THOSE come from? Maybe those were the ones mixed up to be NH??
You're in S gauge, aren't you?
Yep, I sure am.
Weren't the Pullman PCC's built at some other Pullman location (i.e. Chicago)???? Not all Pullman stuff was built in Worcester, Massachusetts.
The NYCTA had some R-1/9 types -- I forget which ones, specifically, that were Pullman products. There were built in the mid-1930's. Didn't they come out of the Chicago plants, too?
Nope, all Pullman's PCC production was done at the Worcester plant. (Ex-Osgood Bradley) As a gag, we had a builder's made plate for BTC PCC 7407 that proclaims "Built by the Osgood Bradley Car Company, Worcester, Massachusetts U.S.A"
7407's real plate says "Pullman-Standard Car Manufacturing Company", of course.
Thanks for the update on the info -- wasn't sure where they did the PCC's.
Thanks for the correction on the NH Power book....I did a quick check of the bookshelves and wasn't too careful there.
Yes, it was in print last year, a new printing. I bought mine about 11 years ago and paid $65.00 for it, so the $80.00 price isn't too bad. It is worth every penny of it.
Mention of the "Washboards" in the above posts jarred my memory a bit. Can anyone tell me why the "Washboards" had so short a career?
Those cars were built in 1954 and to the best of my knowledge - were all retired by the early to mid 1970's.
I realize that the M2 "Cosmopolitans" were ordered as the replacements for all electric powered MU equipment on the New Haven, but I don't understand why those "Washboards" needed to be replaced after at most - 20 years of service. Was there a quality problem? Too many breakdowns? Perhaps the Washboards were slower than the M2s?
Think of it - nearly every railroad has gotten more than 20 years out of their MUs - some have gotten more than twice that. So why so short a time with the Washboards??
Any answers you can provide will be appreciated.
I think one of the reasons was that the cars were neglected for many years and would have needed oe helluva lot of maintenance $$$ sunk into them to catch up. (I know one thing for sure, their suspension was literally SHOT, and it was quite a task to walk the aisles of these cars when under way.)
Not sure, but can anyone verify if they had PCB's in any of the components? That may have played a big part too.
[I think one of the reasons was that the cars were neglected for many years and would have needed oe helluva lot of maintenance $$$ sunk into them to catch up.]
I kinda thought that was the reason, but didn't say because I wasn't sure. They have a couple of them in MOW at NH ... any more saved anywhere ? Was surprised to see a LIRR "MP" MU up at Seashore.
Mr t__:^)
I recently moved from Queens to Cedarhurst, LI and now take the Rockaway line of the LIRR to the city daily. I now realize firsthand how inconvenient this line has become to south shore residents since the closing of the Forest Hills-Ozone Park corridor line in 1962. Even though I need to go west from Cedarhurst to NYC, the line takes me east first, through a loop going through Woodmere, Hewlett, Gibson, Valley Stream, Locust Manor, et al. It really bugs me to think that a usable, though neglected, line exists connecting Far Rockaway with the main line w/o having to visit points east. Could've cut my trip by 30 minutes. Ugh.
You can do something about that. Get involved with your state govt to get a decent Capital Plan passed. Make sure the East Side Access project survives so two additional LIRR tracks carry trains via 63rd St into Manhattan by 2008. With the additional tunnel capacity coming, you can make a reasonable case for revival of this line, because the Manhattan-bound total capacity after 2008 will support it. Then be prepared to help craft a plan to address objections or challenges posed by property owners along (or in) the former ROW, local political demands, NIMBYs, and the need to place some start-up funds for this project in one of the upcoming Capital Plans (2005-2009, or 2009-2014).
Not an easy process. But not impossible to accomplish.
I've walked the ROW. Somebody "put up a parking lot" in a couple of places along the line. Otherwise, the biggest obstacles in the ROW are the trees growing between the rails. Oh, and that metal spider.
And the fact that the bridge over the lower Montauk is, well, not there. The tunnel under the LIRR main has also been sealed at the north end.
Minor difficulties. Those school buses and the parking for that apt. house will be the real toughies.
Is the staircase that goes to the Crescent Apts one of Brooklyn Manor station? It looks similar to the Forest Hills staircases before they rehabbed them, and it approaches the embankment at an angle appropriate for a station, but highly inconvenient for people headed for their cars.
>>>Oh, and that metal spider. <<<
What's the deal with that thing? Is it grafitti or what?
Peace,
ANDEE
Nope. Its a real, steel spider. See the Rock line fan trip photos at OLDNYC.com for a further discussion about that spider.
Too bad they tore up (three times!) the Cedarhurst Cutoff . That would have saved you about 7 miles of travelling distance.
I've read about that line. Wasn't that the line that was built and torn up three times without ever having gone into service?
As it is, service via the loop route is slow and worse, unnecessarily cumbersome given the fact that faster alternatives were planned and existed.
Oh well...more time to sleep, I guess.
Sounds almost like the Oyster Bay Line complaints. But they usually blame that lines troubles on it being diesel. But the Far Rockaway, West Hempstead, and Long Beach Branches are electric.
Considering the whole trip from Cedarhurst to Penn is about 50 minutes, cutting 30 minutes would be quite a trick.
And while it's true you head somewhat east before turning west at Valley Stream, the route then runs more or less straight west to Penn. If you took the old route via Hammels and Ozone Park you'd be heading southwest a good distance before turning northwest to get to White Pot and Penn.
You can figure out about how long it would take from these 2 schedules (from Bob Andersen's lirrhistory.com):
Rockaway Park segment
Hamilton Beach segment
Ad for Rockaway line service showing travel time.
About 10 years ago, many commuters from North Woodmere and other parts of the 5 towns west of Peninsula Blvd. would drive to Rosedale -- which cut both their commuting time and their ticket cost. I've noticed now, that most of the parking lots at Rosedale are empty and grown over. What happened there to change that commuting pattern? Did the city start to charge for parking?
Plan 4 was in effect all weekend, only the Franklin Ave shuttle stopped running during the snow storm I beleive. I got to watch trains run up and down the Brighton Sunday morning while waiting for my 20 minute headway D train (the non revenue moves were coming faster then the revenue moves, pissed a lot of people off).
Chopping away on the paltform with 6 cleaners. 4 of which were on the platform, two had shovels one an ice pick and one throwing salt (or whatever) down. One with a mop inside fare control making the dry tiles wet and slippery, pushing the muck all over the place. And the SUPERVISOR on the opposite platform from the 4 workers standing around. Should give him a tape measure to measure the piles of snow or something like that.
6am Sunday Morning Kings Hwy, Brighton.
I guess MOnday didn't count as the weekend, as I saw regular 6th ave express (B and D) running on the express track. Same for Queens Blvd with E and F express in both directions.
There was no Express service on the Brighton Monday. They trains on A2 and A4 were out of service, removing built up snow and ice.
I guess maybe only above ground express tracks were closed.
The only line that went local instead of express was the A. At Hoyt, when the T/O of my train saw the signal this conversation took place:
T/O: Express on the local?
Tower: No.
T/O: Worth a shot.
[We start to leave, tower operator comes out and walks down the abandoned platform]
Tower operator (laughing): Express on the local?! Express on the local?!
[they converse while train is crawling out of station at 3 MPH.]
At Euclid they held us while the tower operator there brought out some food to be delivered to Lefferts Tower.
Did anyone post this, seems there is Uptown Broadway express service from now until March (hehe).
Uptown Trains will skip Prince, 8th, 23rd and 28th Streets from 12:01am Tuesday Jan. 2nd to Midnight Sunday March 18th.
Then from late March to early June DOWNTOWN trains will run express.
All for station reconstruction.
Now I wonder if the construction companies will get bonus' for early work done. I don't see the Manhattan Bridge flip flop happening with local tracks out of service on Broadway and with only a month leeway to get the job done... Who Knows, maybe we won't get the flip flop in the summer.
As of this morning, they were still stopping at 23rd St.
According to a short article in today's Post the purpose is to have the stations ready for the increased traffic after the flip.
I rode down Broadway tonight to check out the construction; here's what's going on:
28 & 23 Sts: all the "new" tile is gone, exposing the original BMT tile. At the south end of both platforms (the extension, I assume), the entire wall is gone. At 28 St, it looks like some new white tile has already been put up at the north end of the platform.
8 St: All the "new" tile is gone, except at the extension. Interesting to note that the station plaques alternate "8th Street" and "NEW YORK UNIVERSITY." Also, the directional signs to the Waverly Place exit say "TO ASTOR PL." The tile here is in remarkably good condition. Scaffolding was set up on the tracks, with workers doing something on the ceiling.
Prince St: the north half of the station hasn't been touched yet; the "new" tile on the south half is gone. The BMT tile here is pretty beaten here.
At each station, there's a small bulldozer parked on the platform. All fare arrays are gone, and the old bathrooms (storerooms?) are being ripped out. Hopefully there will be something left for me take some pictures tomorrow; someone else took the @#$& digital camera from work tonight.
I let five R-46s and 68s go by before finally getting a 32 for the ride back uptown, and the railfan window was taken! It was a man with two young children, a girl and a boy, no older than four, who are obviously budding railfans. The girl was even explaining the GO to the boy :). "We're skipping a lot of stations because of construction." Another observation: on two Hippos and a Slant, at least one side route sign was set to an upside-down <W>, and on one Hippo, I'm sure I saw a <N>! Does that even exist?
There was an which ran from Astoria to Whitehall back in the day of N via bridge. It was the Broadway local. The sign above the Cortland st station entrance at the WTC mall still shows this.
As for all the ;lt;M> signs, on the inside it will appear normal. That's because the N shown on the inside is actually the one meant for the outside, but they look almost identical so the sign changer didn't notice.
The 68's use older signs that had for the Whitehall special service, and this is what has been replaced by the on the rest of the signs. (some of the original R-68 signs have been replcaed with the newer ones)
The latest rumor is that President-elect Bush will today name former California congressman and current Commerce Secretary Norman Minetta to be Transporation Secretary. Minetta is a Democrat from San Jose. While a congressman, he was chairman of the House Transporation and Public Works Committee.
About the only topic-relevant quote I could quickly find from Minetta comes from a 1994 report titled "Towards A National Intermodal Transportation System" --
"There has never been a coherent, coordinated, and comprehensive national transportation policy that includes highways, transit, rail, airports and seaports as parts of a greater whole. And it is our greatest challenge here in the 1990's to start thinking and planning in terms of that greater whole."
At first blush, seems to be transit-friendly -- most certainly for those wanting subways to airports and the like. Perhaps our resident Californians can give us a little more background on Mr. Mineta.
CG
Mineta has been nominated for Transportation Minister.
http://europe.cnn.com/2001/ALLPOLITICS/stories/01/02/bush.transition/index.html.
I don't know anything about his stances though.
This is a quote from MSNBC News:
"Mineta is best known for his high-tech views on transportation, favoring research into 'maglev' trains that use magnets to float above rails, and intelligent transport systems like road sensors, collision avoidance technology and electronic toll booths. He also has shown interest in electric cars and other alternative vehicles."
http://www.msnbc.com/msn/491164.asp
He's a Democrat and willing to think outside the chauffered limousine and chartered jet box. We could do worse.
("Mineta is best known for his high-tech views on transportation, favoring research into 'maglev' trains that use magnets to float above rails, and intelligent transport systems like road sensors, collision
avoidance technology and electronic toll booths. He also has shown interest in electric cars and other alternative vehicles.")
Didn't see the word "subway" in there. At least he is unlikely to favor Trent Lott's proposal to take all the transit funding away from New York and California. It will have to be taken away from New York alone.
I was at W4 and a cop was on the pay phone of the 8th St entrance, I would assume homeless women,but I am not descriminating against said to the cop "Excuse me officer, I'm $.20 cents short" the cop then says, "OK, go through the gate," so the S/A opens the gate and she goes into the subway for free, and still gets to keep the $1.30! So your telling me that a cop says to let someone in, you just let them in? Why must I spend $1.50 while she gets on for free with no chance of Fare Evasion?
Mike
"Mr. Mass Transit" As a few have called me
OHH give me a break. Have you ever been stranded and asked to be allowed into the system? Or your Metrocard transfer expire and the bus driver lets you on.
If he was allowing every other person into the system, then I would have a problem. I don't even think the S/A could accept the $1.30 into the count sheet anyway. Guess that S/A was over $1.30 for the day.
Good point. The day of the big storm I asked a bus driver if I could go just five blocks and get off due to the snow conditions on the streets and sidewalks.
He let me on and he didn't ask for the fare as he knew people were having difficulties getting around.
BMTman
This is turning into a pattern, you and fare evasion you know!!
The Station Agent must either collect the $1.50 and issue a token/metrocard or accept no money at all. If the clerk were to take the $1.30, the clerk would be placing his/her job in serious jeopardy as the clerk isn't issuing a token/metrocard in return. If caught, the clerk would be facing immediate dismissal.
ONLY a police officer has the authority to let a person on for free. And if the officer took the $1.30 as well, he'd be fired too. That's why she rode for free, the $1.30 would open a pandora's box.
Zman is correct! If a police officer tells us to let a person enter without paying the fare we must obey the police officer.
While we must obey the rules, if a police officer tells us to allow entry the rules require us to obey the police.
If a customer comes to our window and asks to buy a token and does not have enough money we cannot sell them a token-- Why? we'd be short and have to pay for the difference out of our own pocket.
We tell the customer " I am sorry but a token is $1.50. Please find a police officer and come back."
The NYCTA website lists the following "facts" on station locations.
Underground stations: 277
Elevated stations: 153
Embankment stations: 29
Open Cut stations: 9
I wonder how they figure this? I count 9 open cut stations on the Sea Beach alone (if you count the rather odd 8th Ave and Ft. Hamilton Pkwy configurations). But you also have the following open cut stations on the Brighton Line: Botanic Garden, Prospect Park, Parkside, Church, Beverley, Cortelyou, Newkirk. That's another 7.
How do they count Metropolitan Avenue, E105 and Rockaway Pkwy? I would call them surface stations. What's 9th Avenue (West End/Culver)? An elevated station or open cut station over an abandoed subway station?
How would you figure these? Anybody have other counts?
I would count 9th Avenue as a surface station, like Metropolitan Avenue.
Botanic Garden (shuttle line) - I would consider this a subway line, even though its partially in open cut. Andersen-Jerome Avenue on the 9th Avenue el also had a subway/open-cut config and was considered an underground station.
About the other Brighton stations: have to agree with you - they should be open cut stations.
An old copy of "facts and figures" has 17 open cut stations, and only 20 embankment figures, roughly in line with what you reported. Someone must have erroneously classified the Upper Brighton as embankment rather than open cut.
I wonder what Dykman Street on the #1 is classified as?
I was wondering the same thing. It sounds to me like an open cut, but then again, none of the platform is under ground (in a tunnel). That's a good question!!
The Dyckman St. station on the No. 1 line is hard to classify. It is considered to be an aboveground station on an underground portion of the line. The tracks are actually outdoors at the Dyckman St. station even though theorically they're underground.
BMTJeff
Theoretically underground? Whose theory? To get to the station you start at street level and climb up stairs to the platform which is outside. The portal is about 50 - 75 feet south of the station. Next thing, someone will try to convince me that 125/Bway is below ground because it's downgrade from 116 and upgrade of 137, both of which are underground.
At the northern end of the station, it's elevated. At the southern end, it's surface level. At no point is it "underground".
Well, 125th & Broadway isn't considered an Elevated station because the structure it is on is not considered an El!
How's that ;-)
--Mark
Then, pray tell, what is it?
A - Subway
B - Open Cut
C - Embankment
D - Surface
E - Elevated
F - Viaduct
As Ed McMahon said to Johnny Carson, "you are correct, sir!"
--Mark
Why a duck?
Because the Sanity Claus says so
Peace,
ANDEE
But there is no Sanity Claus.
Ummm ... can somebody pass me a baggie of whatever they're smoking?
No smoke here, TMO! The stretch of the IRT Broadway Line ovr Manhattan Valley is considered a viaduct, not a bona-fide El.
--Mark
What is mean by an "embankment" station?
:-) Andrew
The right-of-way on the Brighton line, past Newkirk Avenue. and before Sheepshead Bay is built on a 15-20 foot embankment; i.e., a big hill of dirt. Every few blocks, a cross street slices through the right-of way, and the tracks bridge this gap using a steel viaduct. the stations along this section of the line are "embankment" stations.
Thank you, Moving Platform.
:-) Andrew
This may be nitpicking, but I've noticed that the R44 and R46 cars used on the "A" line release much more air from the air brakes (the "hissing" noise) before moving out of a station than the same cars used on other lines.
Is this accurate, and if so, is this because of different brake maintenance methods used in the 207th Street shops, or perhaps different methods of brake system overhaul during rebuilding, or what?
Only R44's are used on the A line. The difference between lines that you are noticing is a difference in equipment. The A runs R44's while the other lines run R46's. At least this is what I know from reading the posts here.
Shawn.
That is the case. The only way I know of to tell the cars apart (other than unit numbers) is there are 3 seats on the R44 between the back of the cab and the first door and only 2 on the R46.
The R44's also have a dull gray stripe on their waist line. Do the R46's have this also? I cannot remember right now.
Shawn.
The grey stripe is on the R-44 because that area is made out of steel, as opposed to stainless steel. (Look for the bubbles where the rust is seeping through.)On the R-46, the same area is made of stainless steel.
I saw a R44 at 34th Street New Years Eve that appeared to have big grey sticker over that area. I could tell it was a sticker because at overhung the end at little and had bubbles in it near the end. It's hard to describe perfectly since I just noticed it quickly as it was pulling out.
Shawn.
In addition to the R46's not having the dull gray strip, IIRC. I found two other differences at the A ends based on two picutres I found on this site. I don't know if it's accurate for all the R44/46's but it's worth mentioning. I have circled (lightly in yellow) the two differences I found in the first picture which is a R44.
Please note that I modified the size of the images without any regard to keeping them in scale. They will appear side by side depending on your screen resolution. I'm using 1280x1024 :)
The other noticeable difference is that the R-44s have swinging cab doors, the R-46 has sliding. Also, the R-44 still has the glass pane and black frame in the doorway partitions.
They grey stripe isn't completely accurate because the SIR had that section replaced with stainless steel. The SIRs also have quieter braking systems.
There are way more differences, check the archives, I've posted them all about 10 times over in my time here at SubTalk.
The R-44s were given a brake system overhaul before the GOH.
They were originally delivered with P-wire, which was very
unreliable. The R46 had P-wire also, but it was slightly more
reliable on that car class and the P-wire was retained until GOH.
The particular implementation of Westcode braking system used
on R44 cars is unique in NYCT. The noises that a car makes
when releasing aren't a very good indicator of how much air is
actually being exhausted. The noise is determined by the shape
of the exhaust hole, the presence or absence of a muffler on it,
and its proximity to other objects. In fact, and this is what
I thought you meant by your subject line, the R44 is unique in
that it carries full main reservoir pressure in the Brake Pipe,
not limited down to 110 by a feed valve as in every other car.
I don't know why this was done. It doesn't have any effect on
normal, service braking, just emergency dumps.
If I recall correctly, the p-wire would have been the automatic train control originally intended for the Second Av subway, to replace fixed-block signalling.
No, P-wire and ATC are two independent concepts, although the R46
was delivered with all of that as a package.
P-wire was an attempt to replace the pneumatic signal of the
trainline straight air pipe with a signal conveyed by the
amount of electrical current flowing in a closed trainline
circuit. It was a purely analog system (unlike the R142
cars which use digital signaling to convey brake request).
P-wire is still successfully used by LIRR and MNcRR, but
transit had terrible problems with the failure of that trainline
P-wire circuit. Any break in the circuit, i.e. 0 current flow,
was the same as a full-service brake application, so "loss of P-wire"
and the consequent struck brakes were a common failure on
the R44 and R46 fleet.
On the R44, a contract was let with WABCO to replace the brakes
with the Westcode system, using a single rotary (aka "Cineston")
combined power/brake handle. It was poorly design from a crew
comfort standpoint. This was about 1990 IIRC. The R46 fleet
was patched with a series of P-wire improvements that Train Dude
can tell you more about, but when GOH time came around in the mid-90s,
car equipment decided to chuck P-wire and use a New York Air Brake
equivalent of the Westcode system.
The differences you hear is the difference in brake equipment used on the cars and not likely related to the relative volume of air released. R-46s use NYAB brake equipment while the R-44 use Westcode brake system (the only cars to use it). Both the R-46 and R-44 use tread brake units as the final braking device (as opposed to clasp brakes) and the TBUs work under very similar pressures and air volumes. The actual difference is the J relays and R magnets on each type of car and the relative size of the exhaust ports.
"J" Relays Is that like a "J1" Relay Valve, used to interface the Brake valve with the control valve?
We refer to them genericly as the J relay. In fact the R-46 uses a J1.4-14 relay valve. I'm not sure what the exact designation of the R-44 equivalent is. Basically, it is the interface between the brake manifold and the final braking device.
Could one of you diagram (verbally) the braking system in a subway train? I understand that there are two systems: the air pressure-maintained emergency brake which deploys when air is released by the stopcock when a tripper arm hits it; and the regular air brake, which is used after dynamic braking brings the train down to <10 mph.
If I have it right so far, could one of you outline the braking systems and explain the basic relationships of the valves, manifolds etc. It would help me and others understand more about these topics and to better follow your posts.
Thank you.
There may already be a web page somewhere explaining this in
great detail. There is a lot of detail to explain, in fact,
as even the simplified air brake instruction books are dozens
of pages long.
Basically, the "SMEE" (and successor) air brake systems use
two train-line air pipes: Brake Pipe (BP) and Straight Air
Pipe (SAP). SAP is a signal proportional to braking effort
request, ranging from 0 psi (release) to about 85 psi (depending
on vintage) representing maximum service brake. The SAP
pressure is fed by the motorman's brake valve, which is
self-lapping. The self-lapper has a pair of auxilliary contacts
which energize the Apply and Release electrical train line
circuits, causing the A and/or R magnet valves in each car to
follow the action of the self-lapper and more quickly equalize
the trainline SAP pressure to the motorman's request.
The SAP signal is received by two systems: dynamic and pneumatic.
A transducer converts SAP pressure into a proportional voltage
which is used to control dynamic braking effort. At the same
time, the J relay valve on each car effectively "computes" the
brake cylinder pressure by multiplying the SAP pressure, the
loaded weight factor of the car, and a constant factor which depends
on the type of brake actuator (there being two principal types:
simplex and duplex). This multiplication is performed by
pnemumatic/mechanical means. This is the derivation of the
term "relay" valve. Earlier SMEE cars (pre-R-26) used a "B"
model relay valve.
So long as dynamic braking is effective current flows through
a lockout magnet valve, i.e. a solenoid-operated valve.
When energized, the lockout MV vents the brake cylinder line
and holds off the pressure from the relay valve. When the
dynamics fade, the lockout valve de-energizes and the correct
air pressure flows into the cylinders, applying the tread brakes.
I'm deliberately excluding discussion of the "inshot" valve here.
BP is an emergency feature. It is initially filled to 110 psi
by the motorman's brake valve. The _rapid_ loss of BP air,
such as would be caused by a train coming apart, a broken hose,
a pulled cord, or a signal trip, causes the emergency valves in
each car to activate. This immediately disables the motor controls,
and dynamic brakes too, and applies a higher level of cylinder
pressure. The amount of pressure varies based on load weight,
as with service braking, to avoid skidding. Different "algorithms"
have been used over the years to set service and emergency
brake pressures. I won't get into that now.
That's the basics of SMEE braking, but of course there are a lot
of minute details that I have glossed over.
As simply as I can state it:
The emergency brake is controlled by brakepipe air. Brakepipe air aside, braking is straight foward - almost. The train operator through the brake handle, regulates the straight air. Straight air is usually from zero (release) to roughly 80 PSI (full service). This, however, is not the air that stops the train. This is the controlling air. The straignt air runs trainline - the length of the train. To insure that this air responds promptly to changes in demand, Application and Release magnet valves - controlled electrically from the operating brake valve, add or release air from the straight air pipe simultaneously in each car.
Each car has a load sensor that constantly weighs the car. This device allows the same brake demand to be translated into a braking effort that is proportional to the weight of the car. Hence, a demand for a 50 Lb. brake will result in varying brake efforts in each car depending on the load.
Each car has a device that senses the brake effort demanded and sets the equivalent brake effort via dynamic brake. On GE for example, the device is called a DBRT or Dynamic Brake Rate Transducer. While a dynamic brake is being generated, the curent also holds closed a valve called the Lockout Magnet which keeps the car from having an air brake while in dynamic brake. When the dynamic brake fades, this valve opens and allows the air brake.
At this time, the brake demand is fed to the J relay Valve (or equivalent). This valve takes the straight air demand and using Main Reservoir air, supplies a proportional air pressure to the final brake device. For example a straight air setting of 80 PSI on an R-46 will result in a 60 PSI brake cylinder pressure in a lightly loaded train. At the same time, an equivalent brake demand on a similarly loaded R-32 might result in a 30 PSI brake cylinder pressure. The resulting brake effort should be the same.
So do the A trains release more air than the others?
If it wasn't clear from the previous detailed explanations, no they don't.
Shawn.
Thank you, Train Dude, for that well-written explanation. The elegance of the design is quite impressive.
Go here:
Brake diagram
That diagram is pretty but it's slightly dated. For one thing, we removed INSHOT over 10 years ago.
Heh. Well, I left the railroad nearly thirty years ago - so to me it looked pretty modern. I remember trying to explain Wsetinghouse to some rail buffs up here who thought you charged up a tank and valved it directly to the cylinders. A real eye-opener that diagram was for them.
Then came the inevitable question of why LED's were rare on trains for so many years and having to explain the philosophies behind life critical designs where LED's had not been "proven" enough to be acceptable to railcar manufacturers for many years.
Still, even if it's old, better than nothing. Anyone wanna try to diagram the Pwire fiasco? That'd be a hoot. :)
Okay, if my memory serves me correctly, some railroad locomotives use a valve called a J1.6-16, this valve has an output of 160% of control port pressure. Soooooo, a J1.4-14 has an output of 160% of control port pressure?
I think you mean 140%. I'd love to say yes but I'm not sure.
Yes, I did mean 140%
Okay, if my memory serves me correctly, some railroad locomotives use a valve called a J1.6-16, this valve has an output of 160% of control port pressure. Soooooo, a J1.4-14 has an output of 140% of control port pressure?
When will we start getting R143s? Will Bombardier be making any of them?
-Dan
They are currently in production in Kobe, Japan. I assume that the parts will be shipped to the US for assembly as soon as enough become available to warrant shipping. This contract was awarded to Kawasaki only. Bombardier got the deep end of the R142 order, Kawasaki got the smaller share plus the R143's.
Shawn.
ATTENTION SUBTALKERS:
The MTA will be holding a public hearing on the 63rd St Connector's proposed service plan. The detailed text can be found on www.straphangers.org. The short version:
a. G train cut back to Court St
b. F train to operate via 41 Av in Queens and 21rst St-Queensbridge, Roosevelt Island-63rd St tunnel.
c. V train to provide local service from 71 St via Queens Blvd and Broadway to Queens Plaza, then to Manhattan via 53rd St tunnel.
d. Free Metrocard transfer to be offered from G train to 7 train
Whatever your opinion might be, please come to this hearing. A possible free Metrocard transfer from the F at 63rd St-Lex to the 59 St-Lex station is being seriously considered, and you can help make it happen.
If you have alternative ideas, please come and speak.
The hearing on 63rd St Service is at:
Long Island City High School
14-30 Broadway, Long Island City, Queens
Closest subway stop: Broadway, N train.
Date and time: Tuesday, January 23, 2001, at 6PM
You can register to speak at the hearing until 7PM at the hearing itself, or send a letter requesting to register to:
Douglas Sussman
Deputy Director, Govt. and Community Relations
Metropolitan Transportation Authority
347 Madison Avenue
New York NY 10017
Telephone: (212) 878-7483
You can send your written response to the proposed plan to Mr. Sussman. Even if you do, you can still come to speak.
If you mail a letter after Jan 6, remember to use a 34 cent stamp!
If attending by transit, the Broadway N stop is a good 10-12 block walk. You can take the Queens Transit bus west on Broadway as well.
Triboro Coach's Q19A bus runs along 21st Street and stops at Broadway right down the block from LIC HS. The 19A begins at the Queens/Queensboro Plaza complex. Queens Surface's Q104 can be accessed from the Steinway Street station on the 'G' and 'R' or the 46th Street station on the '7'.
Experience has shown the Q19A to run much more frequently than the 104.
Thanks to all of you for taking the time to answer.
--nyhal
I just heard on the news that Bush picked a democrat for Sec. of TRANSPORTATION!!!!! WOO HOO. The party isn't going to end! Transit has a future and it ain't SUV lanes.
And if it did end, there's always the Moscow Metro...
Yeah that remains to be seen. The guy could turn out to be a "token" and just genuflect (sp?) to his "master" Dubya's wishes.
BMTman
Dubya's not a master of anything. If Cheney has one more heart attack, George might even become president.
You guys are just angry and bitter. Give GWB a chance. One thing is certain. There will be a good deal more decency and honor in the office than the past eight years. He is reaching out to groups who rejected him for reasons I do not know, If he screws up, he will be out in four years. If we does well, he will be re-elected. I will make you a wager. He will get a lot more than 9% of the African=American vote next time around, and more than the 38% of the Hispanic vote. And if he does, the Democrats are toast.
Had he won at least 50% of Florida, I might feel differently.
Or at least beaten Gore by at least .1%
When it believed that Bush would win the popular vote, yet lose the electoral vote, all you heard Democrats like Mario Cuomo and Jesse Jackson say what that was the intention of our founding fathers and it is the law, so tough. Well it turned out the other way, and we hear
all the libs, including those two nincompoops, berating the system as unfair. My my, how they've changed their tune. That's the law folks. Bush won by the law. I know some Democrats think the law is moot, especially since that disgraceful individual who has brought disgrace to that position and flaunted the law, proved laws are made to be broken. But this electoral college law stands and that is that. Get over it and get used to it. GWB is President. Live with it. I lived with Clinton for eight years. Now it's your turn.
We're just going to have to hope for the best even as we fear the worst.
Still, it would have made me happier if Bush won by getting more votes in Florida instead of by convincing the courts not to count them. But that's a topic for another board.
Just remember this. That slurry mouth liberal Tom Brokaw called Florida for Gore with only a few votes in, and that precluded over a quarter of a million people in the Republican rich panhandle not to go out and vote. If that hadn't happened Bush would have carried Florida with oodles of votes to spare. I don 't hear any Democrats bemoaning that. Still, the system down there does need cleaning up. No voter should be deprived of their rightful powers as citizens. Florida must bring all voting machines up to date in ALL the various neighborhoods.
IIRC, all the networks used the same number crunching outfit to do their projections. Whatever network TB works for, I doubt that he was the one who decided what to call and when. A talking head is just a talking head.
As for the polls still being open in the panhandle when the projection was made, I agree that no projection for a state should be announced while its polls are open. While no one was "precluded" from voting, I am sure that many are dissuaded. (My recollection is that the networks said that they were waiting for the polls to close in each state. Did the polls in the panhandle close later than Miami?
BTW, "slurry mouth"? Please define.
The networks (and Voter News Service) seem to be particularly clueless about states bi-sected by time zones. There aren't a whole lot -- Indiana, Kentucky and Tennessee also are split between the Eastern and Central Zons, while Texas, like Florida, has a far western sliver of the state within the Mountain Zone. We'll find out two years from now, when they have to call state senatorial and gubenatorial races, whether or not they've learned their lessons.
When the great state of Texas jointed with the rest of the union it was not unconditionally. Two conditions I know of were:
1) The State would have a single time zone.
2) The state would keep all of its unclaimed or vacant land. That is it was not to be Federal land like that found in Nevada or Utah other western states.
avid
Standard time zones were established in 1883. Texas joined the Union long before 1883.
Bush dosen't care about ethnic groups. He wants to use the Ioseph Stalin (TM) method to appear to be their friend and savior, but really concentrates power in the hands of a small group [of old money white people] leaving the minority groups out in a crap hole, but loving him none the less. The only way he'll help minorities is help them enjoy being slaves to the establishment.
Ioseph Stalin (TM)
It's Joseph Stalin because you're not speaking Russian.
BTW, do you call it Russia or Rassya (pronounced Ra-sea-ah)?
Spain or España
China or Chung-kuo
Japan or Nippon
Korea or Han-kuo
Hungary or Magyar
Finland or Suomi
Spain or España
Actually, I prefer Espanya (I lived in Barcelona for a year and developed a strong affinity for the Catalan people - that's the Catalan spelling).
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
[He will get a lot more than 9% of the African=American vote next time around, and more than the 38% of the Hispanic vote.]
George Dubya's "reaching out" is lame. The two headlining blacks in his cabinet all have ties to his daddy -- so you can't include them. Try again.
Blacks and hispanics won't fall for it.
BMTman
"George Dubya's 'reaching out' is lame. The two headlining blacks in his cabinet all have ties to his daddy -- so you can't include them. Try again."
I usually don't participate in these political threads, but I feel like I have to with this kind of nonsense. It doesn't COUNT that he picked a black man for Secretary of State and a black woman for National Security Advisor (both high-power positions, not places where you'd expect token minority appointments, like Education or HUD) because they worked with his father?!? WTF?! They aren't *really* black because they worked with Bush Senior? So when WOULD black appointees actually count as black, eh? Only if they were rootin-tootin liberals like Jesse Jackson? A Republican president isn't going to appoint a liberal Cabinet member -- NEWSFLASH! Neither would a Democrat president appoint a conservative Cabinet member. Nor would I expect them to.
Newsflash: I wouldn't appoint Jesse Jackson to head anything!
How about the Rockaway Park shuttle during the next snow storm?
Well alright on that. At least we agree on this. Jackson is a publicity seeking bum with very little love in his warped mind. If he wants to do something really important, he should go to some of those minority schools out here in California where the lighting fixtures don't work, where there aren't any textbooks, no toilet paper in the bathrooms, sinks that have no running water, and schools that are coming apart at the seams. There is where he should direct his talents, but that wouldn't get his name in the papers. There is no political hay in that. Kids don't vote. But this is where he could do a lot of good, but I won't hold my breath until he comes out here and addresses this tragic problem.
John: Why waste your breath on those guys. Transit whizzes they are, but politically they are so far to the left that they're in foul territory. I didn't hear any hue and cry from the Libs when Clinton failed to appoint a Republican during his first administration, but hear the libs howl when GWB doesn't appoint a Demo. As far as those two high profile African=Americans, Clinton never appointed one to as high and important position as Bush has. And I'll tell you something else. Jesse Jackass wouldn't be a good scab off of Colin Powell's or Condy Rice's rear end.
Give GWB a chance. One thing is certain. There will be a good deal more decency and honor in the office than the past eight years. He is reaching out to groups who rejected him for reasons I do not know, If he screws up, he will be out in four years. If we does well, he will be re-elected. I will make you a wager. He will get a lot more than 9% of the African=American vote next time around, and more than the 38% of the Hispanic vote. And if he does, the Democrats are toast.
There was an interesting column in the New York Post this morning, pointing out that Bush hasn't chosen any Jews for his cabinet or close advisors. Which in a sense is odd, because he got at least a decent percentage of the Jewish vote.
Not odd at all; in a 1993 interview, Bush stated his belief that all Jews, as well as all other non-Christians, are going to hell. He probably thinks his administration would fall out of favor with G-d if any of his Cabinet can't be "saved."
http://www.salon.com/politics/feature/2000/07/07/born_again/index.html, page 2, seventh paragraph.
As a Republican I find that 1993 statement by the new President very troubling. I'm not a Jew, but my daughter's boyfriend is, and his parents have become very close to me and my wife. In plain fact, Jesus was a Jew. He never renounced his religion, and, therefore, he died a Jew. It seems to be that almost all early followers of Christ were Jews, and Peter is at the gate. Peter was Simon. He was a Jew. All Christians have to get by him to get in. I'll be damned if I would say anything derogatory about Jews even if I felt that way. You cannot be a good Christian is you are anti=Jewish. To me it as simple as that. GWB should renounce what he said quickly.
[GWB should renounce what he said quickly.]
Why should the lout renounce something if he truly believes in it???
BMTman
He "renounced" it, sort of, in 1998: "My faith tells me that acceptance of Jesus Christ as my savior is my salvation, and I believe I made it clear that it is not the governor's role to decide who goes to heaven. I believe [G-d] decides who goes to heaven, not George W. Bush." A couple paragraphs down in the same article.
I wonder if he thought any of the prisoners he sent to the electric chiar could get into heaven?
Had this one happened a year earlier, I'm sure it would have made it into the debate over Bush and the death penalty -- seven convicts escaped from a South Texas prision in early December, two serving time on murder charges, one for capital murder. On Christmas Eve they turned up 300 miles to the north in Dallas, where they robbed an Oshman's sporting goods store and shot a police officer (father of three) 11 times, killing him instantly.
The seven are still on the loose, so there's no telling if they'll end up back in jail, dead, or will get away cleanly, but as I said, if this had happened in December 1999 instead of December 2000, I'm sure the question of whether the two murderers should have gotten the death penalty instead of life in prison would have come up during the campaign, with the majority of people feeling if they had executed them in the first place the officer might be alive today.
They would have still been on Death Row, going through the Appeals process and planning the escape.
Get rid of the Death penalty, its barbaric! Make all capital offense criminals Donors! Depending on the crime, they give back to society.
Some only blood, marrow and skin. Others one of anything that comes in pairs or can regenerate, ie the liver. The ulimate Doner would give up all of the above, plus the heart and lungs when needed. Each catagory would yield its resources plus those below it. It would be a nice form of deterence. For those with life threating diseases, back to the Gadiator Games. Chicago Vs Los Vegas, New York Vs Philly .Charge for admission and commercial TV.
Put a bigger price tag on crime. If their appeals come through or they are proven innocent, well then they might still be alive, right.
avid
I wonder if he thought any of the prisoners he sent to the electric chiar could get into heaven?
Yeah, the innoscent ones.
I followed that link, and the Salon article ALSO states that:
1) Bush has several important advisors who are Jewish, which he wouldn't if his narrow religious belief manifested itself as actual hatred of and discrimination against Jews.
2) Gore, when he was running for Congress, made pro-life statements and called homosexuality "abnormal."
If that is so, then he has made a mistake.
Well, speaking as a Jew who voted for Bush, I don't particularly care if he appoints any Jews to major posts in his administration. Indeed, I would hate to think that he would use religion, race, or any other irrelevant criteria in making his decisions. What I do care about is that he appoints the best-qualified person for each post - and, so far, I think he's done a pretty good job in that area.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I guess all of the qualified Jews are Democrats.
There are a lot of qualified people. What I said is that I want the best-qualified person on the job. I make that kind of decision on a daily basis in my organization at work. Some might say that I have too many Indian ethnics in my test organization, or too many Orientals in development. Personally, I don't care what ethnic or other category a person fits in to - what I want is to make the best use of the resources I have available to me. One of my three release managers is going to be promoted to district manager (a direct supervisory position) the 15th of this month. She's not being promoted because of her sex or her ethnic group but because there is a new group being created which she is ideally qualified to lead. I don't know yet who I will appoint to fill her current role or if I'll redistribute that work among several other people, but I will do what makes the most sense, regardless of ethnicity or gender.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Frightening thought!
But there is one more line of defense if Cheney bites the big one: George Bush, Sr.! At least he's the brains in the family.
BMTman
As an aside, Mineta is Japanese-American, and was placed in a concentration camp with his family during WWII. He is currently Commerce Secretary, and the first Asian-American cabinet member. As Chair of the House Transportation and Public Works Committee until 1995, during which, I believe but may be wrong, the ISTEA legislation was passed.
As an aside, Mineta is Japanese-American, and was placed in a concentration camp with his family during WWII.
Internment camp, not concentration camp. BIG difference. The internment camps were certainly no walk in the park for those detained, and their creation was by no means one of America's finest hours, but they were still a far cry from what Hitler was doing in Europe.
-- David
Chicago, IL
Still, it was a rotten thing to do to a very industrious and hard working, patrioitic people. That episode so unfuriates me that in class when I come to EO9066 I can hardly contain myself. Despicable is the only word to describe what he did to those people. There was no excuse for it.
what he did to those people.
Who he? Earl Warren?
EO -- Executive Order? --It would have been Roosevelt. Of course if thr republicans hadn't delayed the start of WWII, Millions of combat and genocide victims would have survived the early 1940's, Meanwhile, the president select, bu$h plans to pursue the same type of foreign policy THIS WILL LEAD TO WAR IN THE NEXT 4 YEARS if your waste basket is on fire, throw water on it DON'T IGNORE IT Also this country is so divided by economic class and state of residence, to say nothing of the religious wedges driven by the republicans that America is no longer as capable of uniting behind a common cause as it once was. and it's only going to get worse A MAJOR WAR WOULD BE A DESTRUCTIVE STRAIN ON THE AMERICAN PEOPLE AT THIS POINT. I FEAR FOR AMERICA'S FUTURE Also, GAS PRICES -- YOU AIN'T SEEN NOTHIN' YET
if the republicans hadn't delayed the start of WWII
Since when were FDR and Joe Kennedy Republicans?
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Would you like to tell me in all honesty what kind of foreign policy the Clinton Admin. has pursued the last 8 years? Sending troops to hither and yon(and for what?), interfering in the governance of one of our staunchest allies(Israel) and selling them out for his "legacy," and helping to create such low morale in our armed services.
They all talk of the lack of foreign policy experience Bush has, but did you ever hear of media criticism of Clinton when he ran in 1992 as far as his expertise was concerned? He had none!
Carl M.
Back in 1992, one of the things that got Clinton elected was the complaint that Bush's father was spending way too much time on foreign policy -- remember the "It's the economy, stupid," line by James Carville?
It's hard to see what Clinton or Barak are trying to accomplish right now that doesn't have the whiff of some sort of desperation move -- Clinton for his legacy and Barak for a peace deal he hopes will bump up public opinion before the upcoming election.
And no, I don't know if a Bush foreign policy will be any better, but judging by the most recent poll numbers in Israel, he's going to be faced with a choice pretty quickly on whether or not to support Sharon (and Netanyahu) in their position against the current peace talks, because it looks like they're going to win the election.
>>>Would you like to tell me in all honesty what kind of foreign policy the Clinton Admin. has pursued the last 8 years?
Has it ever occurred to you that most of the Clinton administrations
foreign policy issues are carry-overs from previous administations - especially left-over unresolved issues from Bush's administration?
Iraq - Saddam Hussein is still the ruler of Bagdad. Yes, removing him may create a power void with some regional instability - but I am certain we all agree that it is quite unstable as it is.
Bosnia/Hersegovina/Kosovo/Serbia - Largely sweeping it under the carpet during one Bush administration is no better than Clinton's stance of aiding the Kosovars (or Bosnians).
For years it has never ceased to amaze me how Republicans in general (and especially certain Congressionsl leaders) so staunchly oppose almost any stance negative to then-"president" Milosevic! He seems to be the only major ex-Soviet bloc communist (he succeeded the infamous Marhsall Tito in Serbia) that the Republican leadership in Congress have nothing negative to say about! Remember that until the very end, Milosevic's party was still called the "Socialist" party.
So what does make Milosevic rather unique? The most obvious and clear answer is his heinous policy of "ethnic cleansing". "Ethnic cleansing" and massive evictions of a religously different - Bosnians and Croatians are Catholic and Kosovars are Muslim - with numerous local massacres, bigotry on a massive scale. Aren't Republicans supposed to be exquisitely sensitive to religious persecutions? - well , it appears that Catholic Christians and Muslims do not concern them.
It sometimes appears to me that old-fashioned bigotry and ethnic violence can restore even a hardened Communist in the minds of certain (less than open-minded) people in this country.
And then the younger Bush still defends his speaking at Bob Jones University - this university finally ended its policy against inter-raical dating, but left its policy against dating Catholics firmly in place! It is no wonder that Catholics in America are a "swing" voter group that, despite sometimes conservative leanings, cannot bring themselves to vote decisively for any party.
Haiti - Denying support to a renegade Catholic priest (Aristide) and openly supporting the military governemnt that followed him does not constitute good foreign policy.
It is difficult to state which governemnt was worse (Aristide's or the succeeding one), but isn't it interesting that Bush and the Republicans in Congress backed the (deranged) military rulers over a (also deranged) clerical one? True loyalties - where do they lie!
Israel - Well, neither Bush nor Clinton's administration caused the original conflict here (obviously). However, which president has been most consistent and firm about the U.S.'s support for peace between the Israelis and the Palestinians? I do not believe that it was President Bush.
China - Both administrations have tried a friendly (as can be possible with a communist-ruled country) policy with China. Oh, well - Clinton didn't start anything new here.
Sorry, I didn't mean to post twice. Please read my next post (and disregard this one) as I added some new things there (about Bosnia especially).
-cordially,
turnstiles
I do not criticize presidents elect for lack of experience, that's why there are advisors. Condoleeza Rice is a G*E*N*I*U*S (Gary Hart's foreign policy advisor) and G.W.B. Has the permission of all sane americans to call Dad for advice As for Israel, any delay in reacting to a threat will be disastrous. Bush had better be quick to respond. but the only real guarantee of Israel's future is a lasting peace with it's neighbors, negotiated with a palestinian entity which can be trusted. Arafat is no longer capable of delivering the goods. and it's not all Ariel Sharon's fault, Gore would face the same dilemma but I think he would react more quickly. One early indicator would be if Bush does the right thing and relocates the U.S. Embassy from Tel Aviv to Jerusalem as the law requires and as he promised in his campaign. One thing is certain, any peace deal is years in the future.I am Jewish and am as concerned as anyone about this issue.
>>>Would you like to tell me in all honesty what kind of foreign policy the Clinton Admin. has pursued the last 8 years?
Carl:
Has it ever occurred to you that most of the Clinton administration's foreign policy issues are actually carry-overs from previous administrations - especially left-over unresolved issues from Bush's administration?
Iraq - Saddam Hussein is still the ruler of Bagdad. Yes, removing him may create a power void with some regional instability - but I am certain we all agree that it is quite unstable as it is.
Bosnia/Hersegovina/Kosovo/Serbia -
Largely sweeping it under the carpet during one Bush administration is no better than Clinton's stance of aiding the Kosovars (or Bosnians). Quite simply, if the U.S. did not lead the UN at that point, Milosevic would probably still been power and the issue would have been passed on to future presidents anyway.
And it was not in internal affair of one country as it involved: 1) two peoples (Serbians and Kosovars) that should not have been placed in the artificial combined nation of Serbia/Kosovo to be begin with (I believe the UN was responsible for this); 2) the massive outflux of hundreds of thousands of Kosovars into several surrounding countries made it clearly an international problem; 3) remember that Serbia has actually invaded foreign nations during the Bush administration - Bosnia/Hercegovina.
For years it has never ceased to amaze me how many Republicans in general (and especially certain Congressional leaders) so staunchly oppose almost any stance negative to then-"president" Milosevic! He seems to be the only major ex-Soviet bloc communist (he succeeded the infamous Marhsall Tito in Serbia) that the Republican leadership in Congress have nothing negative to say about! Remember that until the very end, Milosevic's party was still called the "Socialist" party.
So what does make Milosevic rather unique? The most obvious and clear answer is, in fact, his heinous policy of "ethnic cleansing". "Ethnic cleansing" and massive evictions of a religously different people - Bosnians and Croatians are Catholic and Kosovars are Muslim - with numerous local massacres, bigotry on a massive scale. Aren't Republicans supposed to be sensitive and alert to religious persecutions? - Well, it certainly appears (by the Congress's and Bush's own actions - or inactions) that Catholic Christians and Muslims do not concern them. Sadly, it sometimes appears to me that old-fashioned bigotry and ethnic violence can restore even a hardened Communist in the minds of certain (less than open-minded) people in this country.
And then the younger Bush gave his well-known speech at Bob Jones University - this university finally ended its policy against inter-racial dating, but left its policy against dating Catholics firmly in place! It is no wonder that Catholics in America are a "swing" voter group that, despite sometimes conservative leanings, cannot bring themselves to vote decisively for any party.
Haiti - Denying support to a renegade Catholic priest (Aristide) and openly supporting the military government that followed him does not constitute good foreign policy. It is destabilizing and neither one probably deserved our support.
Israel - Well, neither Bush nor Clinton's administration caused the original conflict here (obviously). However, which president has been most consistent and firm about the U.S.'s support for peace between the Israelis and the Palestinians? I do not believe that it was President Bush.
China - Both administrations have tried a friendly (as can be possible with a communist-ruled country) policy with China. I have known quite a few damning stories about this regime from friends and other people. However, I do understand the point (made by many free-trade Republicans and some Democrats) that China will make an increasingly important trade partner in the future.
Also, the Los Alamos security issue (which is now known to be seriously exaggerated) actually has been occurring since at least the Reagan administration.
In short, I never believed that Bush was quite the foreign policy president that some claimed him to be.
-cordially,
turnstiles
Sorry, I didn't mean to post twice! In any case, please read this one instead of the other because I added some new things here.
-cordially,
turnstiles
You forgot Clinton's policy of pressuring Russia not to smash Chechniya, another genocide prevented by Clinton.
Yes, indeed. Absolutely right. And Chechnya is even more definitely not just an "internal affair" of the state of Russia as it is even officially a separate state.
Except for Iraq and China none of the above matters a hoot.
A] we're trapped somewhat in the Iraq situationbecause we built a dependency on mostly Mideastern imported petroleum
B]I fear we built a monstrosity with China and they're getting what I see as the biggest piece of our trade deficit because making things in China or Mexico are currently the cheapest way of making consumer goods and "toys". It scares me considering their population and where an economic strenght we give them can make the only real surviving Communist nation thrive. Our own "leadership" helped give us that and business and the consumer played right into their hands.
C] Vietnam was a disgrace enough on us for the American blood we wasted and the money, IMHO to prove things like Kosovo etc will get us noplace and I hope it never becomes another Vietnam.[it could]
Israel, Haiti, and Cuba among others if you wish are strictly politics. Why did we let Communism take over Cuba, close to home, and then fight to "end Communism" in Vietnam.?
There are so many nations friendly to us, that live like us, like Northern and Western Europe, and I"d add Italy and Spain largely..why can't we just be grateful for the friends we have and the places at peace instead of wasting blood and money over things they can't change as the locals there can't or won't change things. We waste lives and in the end come out right where we started.
we're trapped somewhat in the Iraq situationbecause we built a dependency on mostly Mideastern imported petroleum
No. Most of our imported oil is from this hemisphere. However Europe receives much of its oil from the ME. Middle East problems could cause Europe to compete with us for Mexican and South American oil.
Ed:
>>>Vietnam was a disgrace enough on us for the American blood we wasted and the money, IMHO to prove things like
Kosovo etc will get us noplace and I hope it never becomes another Vietnam.[it could]
Israel, Haiti, and Cuba among others if you wish are strictly politics. Why did we let Communism take over Cuba, close to
home, and then fight to "end Communism" in Vietnam.?
You are raising some great points here, especially about Vietnam. The only thing that without a "promise" not to attack Cuba when the missiles were being installed (later removed), the spector of a nuclear confrontation was a real possibility during the early 60's.
Free trade with China is a tricky issue. One positive it that clearly encourages capitalism in China. Areas where some degree of free market has been allowed in China (Canton area, etc.) have grown and prospered enormously (>200% growth in revenues in several years). Will it significantly aid the end of the communists in China - I'm not certain.
I never thought Kosovo would turn out in any way like Vietnam. Recent events have borne me out as well. In Kosovo, the UN and the US were largely well received by the population (of course, not by Milosevic and his Serbian Socialists lackeys) - much more so than in Vietnam at least. More importantly, as events have turned out, Milosevic's government has been discredited even in the eyes of the Serbian people who voted him out of office and a new and (at least for now) stable replacement government had taken over in Serbia. An autocratic party and army (Serbian) without firm popular support of its own people simply cannot successfully withstand combat against an overwhelmingly stronger military power (the UN/US). Perhaps people in Serbia rememeber the dark days under communism - under Milosevic. In contrast, the North Vietnamese government, whatever its merits, had wider support than most communist movements, having successfully fought foreign enemies in the French (and I believe the Japanese also) prior to the U.S., and could draw on this support in a limited non-nuclear war against the U.S.
Also, there is a substantial military difference here: while historically Serbians have been famously successful guerilla fighters (against Nazi Germany and later, Tito kept even Stalin at arm's length), modern Serbia did have a conventional army with heavy equipment that can be targeted and attacked successfully by the superior armed forces of the U.S. This contrasts greatly with Vietnam where armies "disappeared" into the night.
In Vietnam, the U.S. was often seen as an outsider and where it supported a succession of governments in South Vietnam that were infamously corrupt and very ineffectual (of course, still better than the communists - but this is not saying very much). In fact, IIRC South Vietnam had 6 or 7 successive governments, all but one of which overthrew the previous one.
Well, good to hear from you.
cordially,
turnstiles
Thank you for the information and positive outlook on matters that concern me. I don't dig deep enough to seethe other side; guess I do wish we had more real industry in the USA as we once did. Thanx again.
Oh please, like Mr Mass Transit from Arkansas really helped out. The SUV boom started while he was in office, and hell, I've never seen a pic of him on a subway or commuter train. And Ms Clinton probbably can't figure out how to swipe a Metrocard, let alone navigate around NY by subway.
Hey, Amtrak sucks harder now than they did 5 years ago, the LIRR's still a mess, NJT, MN, Septa, etc are still running the same 70's vintage junk they were 8 years ago, Penn station is still a dump, and the vast vast vast majority of people still travel by car.
i.e. Clinton didn't do much for mass transit.
Oh yeah, and with Bush in there, we might finally get the balls to kill of that joke called Amtrak.
Other than too fares out of most people's price range, what's wrong with Amtrak?
You mean that in itself isn't enough? Someone needs to put a few new colors in your paint box.
5 years ago was Amtrak's all time low point. In 1994-95 Amtrak tried to cut it way into profitability. It was a disaster and they lost even more money. Amtrak service now is far better than in 1995.
Bullshit. I'm still getting stuck 20+ min on the NEC, I'm paying more, my Hartford connection is a freaking commuter train that makes the OLD LIRR equipment look like a Pullman (heh ;) It's just as crowded, just as slow, and the employees still have that "I don't give a shit" attitude. The Hartford station is a dump, 2 out 3 ticket machines are regularly busted, there's a few gaping holes in the platform. Oh, and I now need a reservation for virtually every train out of Hartford.
Face it. Amtrak's a joke. Unfortunatly, the joke is on the taxpayers.
My Amtrak trains are usually on time. FYI The Springfield Line is a mostly commuter line and if an Amtrak Amfleet makes the LIAR look like Pullman I'll love to ride on the LIAR. The trains are slow because of idiot drivers in Meriden and Wallingford who can't figure out grade crossings needing 25mph PSR's. Now that the Inland trains get 2 F40's each acceleration shouldn't be a problem. I'm sorry about Hartford station, but Amtrak dosen't have the money to build a palace station is every jerkwater burg. The Hartford station is very nice compared to the acerage station. You should be thankful that you have a heated place to wait, mass transit connections, ticket agents (BTW buy your tickets online or from a person, not those lamo machines), and itsn't a basement under some sports venue. Finally all the Amtrak employees I have dealt with have been curtious and helpful.
I am rather pissed about the reservation thing, but again I remind you to buy your tickets online or just use an agent. There is also a way to make a reservation via a public phone and then to pay for it on the train.
PS: What's under the Hartford platform? They should have really kept a second track there.
The Peter Pan Trailways buses pull in under the platform. The second track was on the same level as the first. (IIRC, there were 4 tracks in the station at one time.) Anyway, there is a palatial station in Hartford. It's just not being used as a RR station any more. (Nice Italian restaurant in part of it.) What is being used is the bus terminal. (It looks like a bus terminal.)
I think Amtrak service in the NE is great. Compare to backwater areas of the country with one train per day, which is routinely as late as several hours. The seats are very comfortable. "The joke is on the taxpayers."??? The government taxes railroads, builds roads and freeways, and subsidises auto travel. How can you say the taxpayers are being hoodwinked by Amtrak?
Oh please, like Mr Mass Transit from Arkansas really helped out. The SUV boom started while he was in office...
*sigh* Sadly, that's what happens when the economy does well. People frivolously buy expensive vehicles.
Maybe Bush will be good for mass transit after all...
Good show Phil. But just between you and me, I don't think you impressed the liberals at all. They all have a blind spot where Bill Clinton is concerned. Keep your fingers crossed. He just might be indicted. Wouldn't that be a whoop.
I rode the 7 (head car number 9643) to 42nd street. I brought a number 7 Train Straphanger T-shirt and then got on the Shuttle at Grand Central. I rode (1911 head car). The Motorman almost missed the Train because the Motorman on the tail end almost closed the door. He and I laughed because He said he can't go no where with out me!. Anyway I got of 1911 and went to the Tailing motor at Times Square and now is the head motor. it is 1961. There was a Guy looking thru the Railfan window. I told him about the R62A we were on, then I mentioned NYC Subway org and then I told him there are alot of people who know alot more than me, and even some Motormen!
Riding the system just for fun are you !
On a October day last year I was on the #7s lead car. A small boy came up to the storm door window. After a few stops I asked if he knew it was the IRTs birthday ... he didn't care :-(
I don't think he even knew what IRT ment.
Mr t__:^)
I talked to T/O's and C/Rs from the 7 and 6 line. On the 7, they don;t believe that the R62's will make it to the 7 anytime soon. I am 18 now, and they say they will be here still when I am a T/O. that should be a couple of years from now. Then on the 6, I asked a C/R "no R142's today"? she says there are some out, but these are warmer(R62A) She said the R142's are a piece of Junk. Then I said thats why they aren't all running yet! LOL.
I have a friend who is a C/R on the 2 line and he said the crew does not like them over there as well.
Train#1982Mike
Can you be more specific about the problems?
Hurrah!! my pre-taped "heypaul's anti-142s seminar"
HAS made it to the Flatbush Terminal VCR unit!!
Now if only Flatbush had a TV so we could watch it.
IMHO, if John Lennon were alive, he'd recycle a hit of his and title it "Give Them a Chance" in reference to the R-142s. I'm not going to judge them until I have a chance to ride on them myself. It's only fair.
When you are a T/O? Are you currently employed by the TA? No? Then the correct expression is 'IF'. And I just love these first-person accounts of what people think.
-Hank
I was just wondering: do any of the mainline A or B division lines (other than shuttles) ever run trains shorter than eight cars?
6 car Gs on weekdays, 4 car Gs on friday evenings and all weekend. On Friday eve the G has a C/R in the rear cab, and annoys the hell out of Queens Blvd riders (particularly at Grand Ave, one entrance is at the very rear of the platform, far far away from the last car). The R-110B on the C is 6 cars long, and pulls up to the 10 marker at every stop.
yes the G train CrossTown local Runs 6 cars aabbaa coupling a representing operating cars, and b representing trailers R-46
Seven, sorry but you are incorrect. The G train runs 6 car consists. All but one are A-A-A-B-B-A. There is one consist of A-B-A-B-B-A. There are no G consists in the configuration that you list.
im sorry i meant A-A-A-B-B-A i was misspelling my apologies thanks a lot guy
This morning, i was on the 6:55 a.m. "D" out of Brighton Beach to the city, and saw "Q" and "D" trains running deadhead all the way back on the express track. When my "D" got to Kings Highway, the "Q" was having people get on the "D" and it never passed us. Was the tracks still covered with snow and ice, or were there other things that happened on the Brighton line to have this effect?
Q train(s) had trouble with ice on the rails. The heavier, more reliable R-68 had no such problem.
But, boy, were those R-68's slow this morning on the D!
That's just what Train Dude said: the R-68s had no problem with the ice, so they were running just as they always do! :D
Several years ago, I was having a problem with heel spurs. As a result, I could barely walk by the end of the day - especially when it was exceptionally cold. One particularly cold day, I was on my way to John Jay College where I was a part time student. I was changing from the F to the D at 50th Street about 5 PM. I was plodding along the platform as fast as I could when a young, 'outwardly' attractive young lady came up behind me on the crowded platform. She walked around me and turned and yelled,
"Jesus-FU%$!N-Christ, can you walk any FUC&!NG slower"?
Needless to say she got to the rear of the D train and waited as I kept plodding along. Eventually, I got to the rear of the train and boarded at the same door that she did. On board, I (slightly loudly) expressed the fact that despite the fact that I had a physical disability, she and I ended up in the same place and I didn't have to be rude to anyone to get there. I got off at Columbus Circle because it was my stop. She followed close behind - perhaps to change trains again or perhaps due to being embarrassed about her nasty, thoughtless behavior. But I digress.
Much as I did that night, the Ds may plod along but usually get there as fast as the allegedly faster car classes. There is much to be said for dependability.
I can see your tounge in your cheek there!!
It shows that much, does it?
Well I went to the Hall today:
1. Met the new leader, Roger Toussaint. It was the first day at the job.
2. Met a few people there from the different departments.
3. Met the Union reps.
4. Got the pass.
5. Go to PS248 tomorrow for the rest of the week.
6. Did I say what division Im in? Lets see, there are 55 people in the class. 34 slots for the A division and 21 for the B division. Well lets just say that I will stay true to my namesake. I was at the bottom of the list and the B division slots went like hotcakes!! In 5 minutes, they were gone. There was even had a guy from the Bx that wanted the B but the pick people told him otherwise.
Well at least I get to operate the Redbirds b4 they say bye-bye or gurgle-gurgle. We might go to the East on Friday but it is a slim chance.
Railfan:
1. Uptown N and R was still going local at 23 and 28Sts.
2. There was service disruption on the 7 this morning. No service along 42St.
3. A R142 set with the 6336-6341 cars in the rear discharge passengers at Chambers(downtown platform). There was another set earlier entering Hoyt.
IRT, Here I come!!!
Train#1983Mike
I don't think you'll have to spend much time over in the "A" division. When the "B" picks it's second pick of 2001, send a G2(letter to document unusual occurrances. In this case it's used differently)to the pick section where you'll be placed in the spot according to your file number. They'll come out with a notice stating when a pick will begin and the deadline to have the G2 in if you wish to consider transferring divisions. If you don't make it over this year, you will next year.
I forgot to mention that when I started as a conductor, I had to go to the A division(12-91). I picked a job in the A for the 3-92 pick, then put a G2 in to pick in the B. I was able to transfer to the B in 8-92. So, I had less than a year on the job and already worked both divisions. You'll move up fast in seniority. I know a conductor with about 3 yrs who has Friday/Saturday off on the p.m. tour.
Look at the bright side SubBus, the A division is the perfect training grounds for a C/R. I did a year there and transferred to the B. (I HATED THE IRT).
It's always rush hour in the IRT (for a C/R) so be prepared.
Good Luck!
Thanks!!!. I aint mad at all. It seems there is a lot more work in the B division as far equipment and other stuff. Besides, I grew up on the Brooklyn IRT so Im in familiar territory.
Train#1984Mike
Thanks!!!. I aint mad at all. It seems there is a lot more work in the B division as far equipment and other stuff. Besides, I grew up on the Brooklyn IRT so Im in familiar territory.
Train#1984Mike
from "News Briefs" in Tuesday's Philly Inquirer:
"The Y2K computer glitch hit Norway's national railroad company a year later than expected. It was discovered when none of the company's new 16 airport express trains or 13 high-speed, long-distance Signatur trains would start early in the morning of Dec. 31. The computers on board the trains apparently did not recognize the date. The problem was quickly solved on a temporary basis by resetting the computers to Dec. 1, 2000, and the trains started."
A recent Railway Age article mentioned that Heathrow airport was in line for a people mover. I haven't been there in a few years, so could any Londoners or someone who's spent some time there lately fill me in? What would this mean for the subway which already stops at most terminals? Where would they connect? Would one supersede the other? Thanks a lot.
London Heathrow is served by the London Underground (subway). The subway has several stops through the airport. Within the last year, British Rail opened a commuter rail express line to Heathrow from downtown London (Paddington Station, I believe). I had heard rumors of a people mover which would better cover areas not immediately near the subway and feed more people to it.
London Underground has its own website. Use Yahoo or another search engine to bookmark it.
London Underground (LUL) has plans to build a Picadilly Line extension to Terminal 5 and have it ready by 2007. The people mover appears to be an airport shuttle. It could use a some sort of a mini-people mover between Terminal 4 and the LUL station as it is a very long walk between the two.
For more info on LUL: www.thetube.com or www.londontransport.co.uk
You think that little underground ramp from Heathrow 4 to its Underground station is "a long walk"? I thought it was the most convenient thing I'd ever seen. :-)
Try dragging your suitcases from the Shuttle at Times Square to the IND at 8th Avenue. At least Heathrow 4's Underground station is barrier free and accessible via elevators. Of course that can't be said for the rest of the Underground especially if you need to transfer from the Piccadilly line to some other line in central London.
>>>You think that little underground ramp from Heathrow 4 to its Underground station is "a long walk"? I thought it was the most convenient thing I'd ever seen.<<<
Mind you I'm not complaining, but when I walked from the British Airways terminal to the LU, the walk took quite a while. Unless I'm getting confused with the walk from the Virgin Airways terminal (Terminal 1) to the LU Term.1,2,3 stop.
Even with a long walk, it's still far more convenient than what NYC has.
Heathrow is a long subway ride from the center of London. I thought I read somewhere that because of that they recently opened a railroad station at the airport. Those trains offer faster service to the center city and connections to intercity routes.
They built a whole new railroad spur from an existing line (which was electrified for the Heathrow service). It's pretty nice. They have remote check-in and baggage check at Paddington Station. It costs GBP 12, kind of expensive, but the remote check in is worth it (you can use the remote check in and then use the Underground to get to the airport, if you want).
-Dave
That was a very interesting article. I'm disappointed there was no mention of the Hartsfield Airport people mover. According to the Adtranz web site, it's the most complex system in the world. Also, it carries more people than any other people mover hands down. Also more passengers than many subway systems.
5 free or almost free steps to vastly improve SEPTA service.
1. Have cashiers in ticket booths give change. (otherwise, they are no better than the machines sitting next to them)
2. Display system maps in every subway and commuter rail station, not just one (Suburban).
3. Indicate bus frequencies at all bus stops.
4. Give away system maps for free, to encourage use of the system. Do not sell them for SEVEN DOLLARS.
5. Instruct bus drivers to stop at every stop where passengers are visibly waiting, even if they are behind schedule.
1) Unless you want hopless gridlock the agents can either deal with paper transfers and passes and cash fares OR they can run a little token store.
2) At most commuter rail stations the cost of a system map would exceed the value of the station. Also I believe all subway stations have basic system maps.
3) Ok
4) The $7 maps are HI QUALITY and worth $7. They are NOT give away items.
5) I can't really comment on this.
#4. Yes, the maps are worth $7. But SEPTA is neither AAA nor Rand-MacNally. They should not be in the business of creating (as SEPTA customer service told me) "The best and most detailed map ever made of Philadelphia". I don't need to know every 8 foot wide alley. Just the streets with bus routes on them would be nice.
SEPTA also has no money. If they don't charge $7 they'll give away a phamphlet just like every other city.
Why not post it on their website like every other city? That's free.
No they won't
New York has nice, detailed maps. The bus maps give you every eight foot alley they know about.
Which brings up a good point...neighborhood maps like the ones that many New York subway stations have would be nice to have at SEPTA stations.
Just an idea
Mark Michalovic
Interesting. For # one, where do they not give change? That is rediculous, but I think they acutally do. And they take transfers too, don't forget.
#2 They have system maps at 15th Street Station and on all the trains, and on quite a few other stations, like Wayne on the R5 and others. There is even a suburban map at Bryn Mawr for the route 100, although that is really outdated (I know, SEPTA seriously needs more)
#3 Bus frequencies aren't always that accurate, and would have to be changed whenever there were schedule changes. They have those on the route 100, and now they changed late ngiht service to every half hour rather than every hour, so those aren't correct.
#4 These are only suburban transit maps, and they should be free, like the City and University City maps are free.
#5 Lol, where does that happen? That has never happened to me at all before. Are you sure the buse driver didn't just think they were waiting for another bus. Also, the bus may have been full, you know. (although in Jamaica that wouldn't matter at all)
#1. Any subway stations. There are cashiers, but you still need to give exact change. Most stations now have change machines, but it is still a parody to have cashiers in booths who will gladly take your $2 but not give you your 40 cents back. People from out of town are astounded.
#2. I am referring to the complete system map, not just the subway and suburban rail lines map. It would be nice to see where the busses go from the subway station or suburban rail station whence you are exiting.
#3. There are a few bus stops in Center City, particularly along Walnut St. which indicate, e.g. Rte. 21: 7am-10am, 7 minutes, 10am-4pm, 20 minutes, 4pm-6pm, 15 minutes, 6pm-9pm, 30 minutes, 9pm-2am, 45 minutes, 2am-7am, 60 minutes; Rte. 19: etc.
It would be very inexpensive to indicate this on every bus stop, particularly on urban routes which haven't changed in decades.
#5. I often take the 40 from 3rd and Lombard around 8:30am to work. The route begins at 2nd and Lombard. If it is running late, it will take on passengers at 2nd, then not stop until 7th or later, although there are lots of people waiting at every block. I have experienced this on several other routes at different times of the day. Sometimes the driver will smile or even wave at you as he or she passes.
For #5, the Q23 bus up here does that all the time during the AM rush when it's ON-TIME! But it's so crowded, a mouse couldn't fit in there. I get on at the third stop (65th ave) for the "shuttles" which only go half the entire route (started 62nd drive). Trying to get on one that came all the way from East Elmhurst requires serious prayer. I am often the last person on before the bus goes straight to 71/Continental, on both the shuttles and full length runs. The buses run every 5 minutes, so how are they so crowded? Moreover, how on earth do the people at those stops get anywhere? We need articulateds, or a 108st subway line.
#1. Any subway stations. There are cashiers, but you still need to give exact change. Most stations now have change machines, but it is still a parody to have cashiers in booths who will gladly take your $2 but not give you your 40 cents back. People from out of town are astounded.
Why do they even have those monkeys then? install a turnstile that takes bills and change.
Probably a union thing. Steven Brookens would shut down the city again, and maybe then have the audacity to run for city council.
Well the MDBF numbers for December are not official yet but the R-68s of Bronx lineage have for the 2nd time in 3 months performed at an MDBF of over 400,000 miles. Official numbers will be available in a few days.
Steve,
Please E-mail me with your E-mail address. There is a matter I must speak with you about privately and you haven't been putting in your E-mail address of late.
Peace,
ANDEE
If only the other equipment had as good a zoo keeper as our farorite Supt. who keeps those Hippos rolling and rolling and rolling.
A tip of my Subway Series hat to you !
Mr t__:^)
Since I do ride some of your cars, my unoffical thanks (offical in a few days).
BTW, will the storm hurt you much for next month?
I suspect that despite our best efforts, snow and chemicals will cause a spike in trolley lead failures. This is despite the fact that the trucks were replaced recently. I never underestimate the effects of weather.
What part of the T-lead is prone to failure? The segment
between the underbody and the truck? Why is that one
wire more vulnerable than the motor leads or air hoses?
There is a connector between the truck and car body segments. This particular junction, because of its location and size, and considering the high currents it handles, is prone to failure due to packed snow above the truck.
Are they still using the "handshake" connector with a fiberboard
sleeve that slips over it? Maybe a useful improvement would
be a rubber boot matched to the O.D. of the T-lead that can
be clamped at each end.
We sleeved it. We booted it. We wrapped it. We shielded it. Results were the same.
Hmmmm. Is the problem that corrosion causes the connector
to fail open, or the line blows to ground? I would think that
a connector problem could be addressed with a hermetic rubber
boot and possibly filling the inside with a water-blocking gel.
That's great news. Keep it up!
The MDBF I posted for the Concourse R-68s was a preliminary number and was incorrect. It was not 400,000 miles+ as originally posted. The actual number appears to be 556,400 miles. The 12 month moving MDBF for the Concourse fleet is also a record setting 200,000 miles.
Is this like the new on-time preformance system, i.e. the trains are just as late but the report shows an improvement ?
Mr t__:^)
Does anyone know if a Nassau bus map (eg MSBA route map) is available in similar format to the borough bus maps? The MTA website contains only individual Nassau bus schedules.
No. I don't believe so. I always thought Nassau should be treated as the sixth borough when it comes to bus maps--ie the map should be in the same format and part of the same "series", both systems being part of the MTA and all. But no. 'Tis not the case.
:-) Andrew
I haven't seen one available to the public in many years. I'll be in the Hempstead terminal in a few weeks and will check then.
Well, the map DOES exist in hard copy. I thought Ron was just asking about the online edition. You can get one by calling MTA Long Island Bus.
Dumb question: Any good reason they didn't make it "MTA Nassau Bus" or something. That's really who they serve.
:) Andrew
Sulfolk bus is not part of the MTA? They dont take metrocards.
No. Suffolk Transit is county-run, as are the systems for Westchester (Bee-Line), Rockland (Transport of Rockland) Putnam (Puntnam Area Rapdi Transit or PART) and Dutchess (Loop). There are also a few city and town run bus systems in Southern New York State: City of Long Beach busses (they run a few unnumbered routes, and the N69), the Town of Huntington's HART, and the City of Pughkeepsie's system.
A few Nassau LI Bus routes do overlap a little into Suffolk. But all bear the "N" prefix.
:) Andrew
I thought Bee Line was run by Libery Lines (or is that just its Bronx routes)?
Liberty has extensive routes in Westchester & provides Express service to Manhattan from the Bronx for nycDOT.
Mr t__:^)
Bee Line has contractors who can put in small notes on the bus but they have to be decorated in the Bee Line motif.
I've only noticed that some of the Bee Line buses say "Operated by Liberty Lines," so I assumed it to mean that Bee Line was a subsidiary of Liberty Lines. Thanks for the clarification.
Go to Hempstead terminal. You may also find one at several LIRR stations (in a take-one or ticket office). Map was last updated in 1994, so no N6 limited (and possibly no JFK flyer).
Suffolk county also has a bus map, I found one once in Babylon. Its in a similar style to Westchester County's Bee Line map (available at MNRR stations, last updated Feb 1997).
The Newark and Hudson NJ bus maps have not been updated since 1990, but they are available at customer service desks in Newark and Hoboken.
There, everything you ever needed to know about finding NY area bus maps.
Thanks to all for their useful input.
Ron, I have a "Long Island Bus Syatem Map" 1994 & "Suffolk County Transit Bus Route Map" Fall 1998.
Try calling LI Bus at 516-766-6722 & Suffolk Transit 631-852-5200.
Mr t__:^)
Thanks Mr. T!
This evening it was personally confirmed to me from CapitalOne Bank that their "Amtrak Smartrak Rewards" program does not, and has not, for the last week or more, made any Amtrak rewards for the use of such cards. They admitted that customers such as myself have not been advised by CapitalOne Bank that this progam has been discontinued. Many of you may have known this, but they verified that no official notice has been made to their customers and could not either explain why such notification has not been made nor could they give a firm date by which they would disseminate such important information to their customers. Since many Subtalkers like to take long Amtrak trips and may indeed possess such a card, they should, in my opinion, be aware of what happened. While I offer no personal opinion about whether or not one should continue to use such cards, this information might give you reason to consider your use of such credit cards with any bank that may have issued them. There have been references to Amtrak's new "mileage program" on this and other railfan websites. "Let the buyer beware!"
Where are the track maps for the three Divisions? I can't seem to find the compact, detailed, maps anymore. Were they removed from this Web site? If so, why? If not, I'd appreciate "directions" as to how to get to them. Problem: The last times I tried to access them from the link that says "Track Maps", the connection "derailed" and and I was "switched" to something else. Anyone else have this problem?
Thanks.
Check each division section (eg. www.nycsubway.org/irt). They're each toward the bottom of the page. I checked them and they work for me.
http://www.nycsubway.org/maps/track/
seems to work just fine from my PC at work. Where did you find the old link?
When the B, D, and Q (screw the new names) end up on Broadway, do you think one staircase per platform will do?
Just some food for thought next time you think transferring there is bad now.
Come to think of it, all they're doing is basically fixing up the other staircase. Two staircases isn't all that much better than one. If only they had a ramp...
That ramp should have never been remvod.
The B & D will not have a section operating via Broadway. They will terminate at 34th/6th.
The Q will operate via Broadway (probably from 57th St).
That's what I meant by "screw the new names." I wanted to stress the 3 additional lines without getting all wordy or using fancy HTML.
I still feel that this should be done the same way as the 1980s South Side Only G.O.
8 PM. Don't miss it. The R-30s ride again.
I have it on tape. Don't care to see Fox slice it to death.
Peace,
ANDEE
Its an awful movie anyway.
True, but the subway scenes, even though inaccurate are neat.
Peace,
ANDEE
As do I. They'll probably show the scene where the innocent R-30 gets all smashed up, but cut out the one where the bad ol' token booth torcher gets what's comin' to him.
Right, and if I remember the scene they have a numbered route on the end of that R-30 (I guess trying to pass it off as an IRT Redbird).
Next to "Taking of Pelham 1-2-3" "Money Train" is in my book as one of the better made subway flicks. The production crew should be commended for painstakingly reproducing a subway station, tunnel and most of the esthetic detailings of the NYCT system on a Hollywood location. Not bad for 'faking it'.
BMTman
They cut to view of the train 3 times in that scene. The first 2 it said <5> Dyre Ave. The third time it said N Coney Island.
I'm sure you'll enjoy Money Train's trivia and goofs sections at the Internet Movie Database.
--Mike
And dressing up Union Square to pass it off as Wall St.? Come on.
I think a great idea that I wouldn't think to be so difficult would be to add some sort of software to the Subway Station Value Reader to tell you how much time you have left on a transfer. I believe that this would be great so that you know wether you will be paying the buck fifty when you get off the train to transfer to the bus or if the transfer is still good. Does anyone else think this would be atleast a 1/2 good idea?
Mike
"Mr Mass Transit" I almost wrote this on a paper the other day
Would cost the MTA money to get Cubic to do it. Cubic won't even fix problems without money up front, e.g. the Depot Computers are 2 to 5 minutes behind the mainframe even though the "system" is supose to re-set the clock above a one minute error.
Mr t__:^)
Is the MTA credit rating that bad?
With student passes and unlimited passes they show when you last swiped. They should do that with regular cards as well.
With pay per ride I don't believe that it shows the last time you swiped. With any type of unlimited ride card, they show you because of the 18 minute rule. They should show when u last swiped your Pay per ride metrocard then you could add 2 hours and know if the transfer is ok or not still.
Mike "Mr Mass Transit" As my friend called me tonite
It's actually two hours and eighteen minutes.
You can always go to your friendly Station Agent and ask them to check your card to see if the transfer is still there.Our computer in the booth wioll show the last time/place the card was used. Each bus line and station has a code (Which I will not reveal). We could check your card and tell you "it was used at 3pm on the bus or it was used at 130pm on the subway."
That's a waste of time. Having to wait in line and having to lose control of the card.
Come on Piggs ... our friend is just trying to say that the Station Agent should be willing to provide the customer some SERVICE. All of us employees of the system should never forget it's part of our job.
Mr t__:^)
That reminds people that if they really needed the information, they could still get it. It doesn't mean that the TA shouldn't consider the original suggestion.
>>>...having to lose control of the card<<<
Why do you consider this a problem?
Peace,
ANDEE
Dave,
Wow...you started of the new year, century, and millenium with a BANG! I really like the new design to the opening page...it works, and has many features of "modern" webpages, like the changing photos without a reload :) -Nick
Dave:
Nice job. The webpage hasn't look better. It is more colorful than before. Keep up the good work. Terrific to start off the new year with a fresh look.
BMTJeff
Thanks. I like the way it looks better at home moreso than at work. Combination of font choice and size, I suppose.
In case anyone is wondering, I always view and design the site in a "letter sized paper" browser, higher than it is wide (around 600x1024). Text is easier to read when the lines aren't too long. I think this is atypical of most surfers though, who have the browser maximized to the size of the screen which is wider than it is tall.
Us guys & gals with glasses (and without 17 inch or larger screens) appreciate that we don't have to use a magnifying glass to read Sub/BusTalk. Thanks Dave.
Mr t__:^)
The new format is great! I typically have the window taking up the full height of the screen, and about 3/8 to 1/2 the width. The new front page is definitely "narrow browser" friendly.
Thank you for providing a great resource, as always!
More complaints about W train,
W=WORSE
Peace,
ANDEE
Do you smell LAW SUIT??
Mmmmmmmmmmm, It's a possibility
Peace,
ANDEE
[From the article:"Wong estimated that for the thousands of people who live in Brooklyn and commute to Chinatown, the changes will nearly double their daily travel time. "]
I don't see how would it double the travel time, Canal St is maybe 5 -10 minutes to walk from Canal St station. Also they have an option to switch to M.
Arti
True, but most people a) don't look at the map and find alternate routes, and b) like to complain. Where are the cheering masses of people who live along the Brighton & West End and work on the east side of Manhattan, who now have a Broadway express and can finally transfer to the uptown 6?
I don't live in Brooklyn, I'm in the Bronx but I'm cheering, I get on the D at BPB and get off at 34th always a seat not only on the way to work but also on the way home I CAN'T WAIT. Loved it the last time too except for those awful pre-GOH R42s. 8-)
Peace,
ANDEE
Complaints always draw more attention in the media that praise does, and if you take the Daily News story to its (il)logical conclusion, the compliners apparently want the MTA to magically create an alternate connection between the Manny B and the Grand Street station, or just continue running trains over the northeast side of the bridge. They might be able to get a judge to issue an injunction to do that -- at least until the first R-68 goes head-first into the East River.
The only positive thing that could come out of this is if the MTA and the city have to explain (once again) why the bridge repairs are needed and outline the design flaw in the Manny B, and some of the politicians actually start thinking about building a replacement tunnel for either the Sixth Ave. and/or Broadway lines.
Ughh, have you seen the Canal street sidewalks? They are packed as it is. With the switch, they will really be clogged since that many more people will be walking down Canal street.
It is only about 5 or 10 minutes, but with the traffic jam of people it takes me almost 15 to 20 minutes from Grand to the Canal street station.
The only way I can make it in 5 to 10 is to jaywalk and walk in the street. Betcha you'll be seeing alot of people walking in Canal street once the switch happens.
Let the MTA at least run the V to Grand, it's a bigger destination than 2nd ave.
[Ughh, have you seen the Canal street sidewalks? They are packed as it is. ]
Solution use parallel streets.
[Let the MTA at least run the V to Grand, it's a bigger destination than 2nd ave. ]
That would make the trip last twice as long as the complainer pointed out, from Bklyn to 34th and then back to Grand, makes no sense. Of course I understand your concern as you will coming from Queens ...
Anyway you should consider J or Z.
Arti
Maybe it should be pointed out that Bowery can be a reasonable alternative and it is just one stop from Canal on the J, M, and Z.
In order to have the V from Queens terminate at Grand St. you would have to get PERFECT ontime performance. Don't forget that you would have to single track from north of Bway-Lafayette to Grand St. Of course, the next train would have to wait for its' leader to come back!
If Ms. Wong has been living near Bay Parkway for 17 years, then she should remember the last time the 6th Ave. side of the bridge was closed. This is the same service plan that was in effect form 1986-89. Instead of having a yellow 'B' and orange 'B', the TA decided to call the Brooklyn half the 'W'. Hopefully though this time the W won't be turning at Queensboro Plaza during middays, as this caused a major bottleneck last time around. Yes it's really going to suck, but unfortunately its something we're all going to have to live with for awhile.
[If Ms. Wong has been living near Bay Parkway for 17 years, she should remember the last time....]
People's memories can be VERY selective.
-----
The basic complaint seems to be: "Transit has no right to sever the Brooklyn-to-Grand-Street link, even if the trains are being evicted from the bridge. Don't bother with the facts, just run the trains whether the tracks are there or not." This, even from the Straphangers Campaign, clearly in order to profit from lots of press conferences.
If they were smart they could easily make the "W" train express in Manhattan and in Brooklyn on the 4th Av. line. At the same time they can send the "D" and "Q" trains over the Manhattan bridge and on to the BMT Braodway line.
BMTJeff
The W will be express. B and D will not exist in Brooklyn. This is to reduce confusion that ensues with a 'northern' B and D service and a 'southern' B and D service. Only the Q will run on the Brighton to Broadway, in both express and local versions (ala the rush-hour service on the 5, 6, and 7). The southern section of the B will be called the W, and there will be no southern D. Otherwise, the plan is identical to the one used the first time the bridge was closed. Additionally, the Grand St station will NOT be closed at all times, there will just be no Brooklyn-bound service.
-Hank
Yes Grand St. won't be closed but a once station shuttle train is no fun then switching to the "F"orever is your only option.
A shuttle train is better than nothing though!
(A shuttle train is better than nothing though!)
No it isn't. Does anyone remember what the shuttle was like in the 1980s? You could smell it from a passing F train!
They should close the station, and use the resources to run the V through to Church and the F express. Chinatown would benefit from more trains at E. Broadway and Delancy, and many 6th Avenue B/D/Q riders could walk to the F.
The TA should just pitch the Bowery station around the corner as the solution. You just take any train from there one stop (just like the shuttle) to Essex for the , and also one stop the other direction for the , the other direction to Brooklyn.
Any ideas about MU assignments for the BMT with this change?
Will the "W" run to Queensboro Plaza or Astoria?
(The TA should just pitch the Bowery station around the corner as the solution. You just take any train from there one stop (just
like the shuttle) to Essex for the , and also one stop the other direction for the Q, Q, or W the other direction to Brooklyn.)
There are many things the TA could do to offset the damage of this change. High on the list is finding some way to reduce the number of spares, expending the V and G to Church, and making the F express (and the F to Stillwell super express).
Since the F passes within walking distance (or a short bus ride) of the D/Q, N and B at different points, a substantial number of people have a choice of which train to take. With the free bus to subway transfer, many of those might choose to take an F express, especially if their destination is 6th Avenue.
Yes Grand St. won't be closed but a once station shuttle train is no fun then switching to the "F"orever is your only option.
Oh and the downtown 6
Not if the Grand St shuttle were extended to West 4th Street. Then you'd have options to transfer for A, C and E trains. What would stop that from being done?
--Mark
Where would you cross it without delaying through service? Maybe run it to the upper level of West 4th, empty out , proceed to the layup track just south of 34th and reverse. Still a nooseance to through service.
avid
There is a scissors crossing both to the north and to the south of W4th St. between both express tracks.
You are right! I stand corrected.
avid
Why even cross it? Run one train on each track in both directions, like the Times Square/ Grand Central Shuttle, timed so they meet each other at Broadway / Lafayette.
--Mark
Actually that sounds like a GREAT idea. Run the shuttle from Grand street to W4th. That would give Grand street riders more choices.
Even though the walk from Canal is a pain I'd rather do the Broadway express and make the change, since it'll still be faster.
Besides the new Canal street bridge station looks really nice.
Besides the new Canal street bridge station looks really nice.
Yeah but it still smells like rotting fish and feces.
wayne
Grand street can smell just as bad.
Take this time to put a second staircase in at the station. Run a short shuttle train less then 10 cars and work on the station.
Good idea. Which stations would the shuttle train run from?
BMTJeff
It is slatted to run now from Broadway/Laffette to Grand St. I assume it will be a short OPTO train but you are gonna have to wait for the summer picks.
Lou From Brooklyn:
That will be a very short shuttle. I think that it is only two stations long if I'm not mistaken.
BMTJeff
Win one, lose one but thousands still whine.Once upon a time the Chrystie St. connection was hooked up and the generations old Southern services were jiggled quite a bit, with West End and most Brighton service shifted to 6th Ave. Many hated it but it was done and oh well. Canal and Broadway sta. still serves Chinatown albeit a few blocks west, the West End service will be just as fast [too bad they won't revert to "T' for it] and even though I'm 2000 miles away I will still apreciate the Broadway express tracks being in service again. Now if they'd only accomodate Sea Beach Fred and route the N that way again. As for connections to other lines there are others available.All a matter of getting used to it.
They should accomodate the "N" formerly #4 train over the Manhattan bridge. Running it through the Whitehall Street tunnel is a stupid idea in my own opinion. In short bring back the Sea Beach Express. Then #4 Sea Beach Fred would be very happy.
BMTJeff
As a Queens resident, I find it funny when someone complains about a Manhattan station being closed. OK. The Canal St. station is few blocks away. I have to drive three miles to get to my station.
And it's not like the TA can do anything about it anyway. The Manhattan Bridge north tracks are being closed by the city DOT.
:) Andrew
The Manhattan bridge contruction is indeed the DOT's job, so perhaps those who are unhappy should complain to the DOT about why it's taking so damn long to fix the bridge, since the MTA has no jurisdiction on the MB.
The complaints are misdirected, but fair. A service plan with half the bridge out for four years stinks. The fact that the current condition also stinks is besides the point. Notice, also, that there will be no public hearing because the service change is "temporary", yet it is now being described as FOUR YEARS.
The timing is delicious. A service improvement for Queens timed to match a service disruption for Brooklyn. Perhaps the LIRR to GCT can be announced the day these other changes are made.
We're sure to be treated to four or five potential borough presidents screaming about the W, having previously ignored the Manhattan Bridge agony for close to 20 years.
There is no service cuts involved here for Brooklyn riders. The trains are simply being rerouted.
These politicians are blowing smoke. One way to call their bluff is to allow them to go to court to get an injunction stopping the reroute plan. Then when the DOT closes the north side (out of control of the MTA), run NOTHING over the bridge.
(These politicians are blowing smoke. One way to call their bluff is t o allow them to go to court to get an injunction stopping the reroute plan. Then when the DOT closes the north side (out of control of the MTA), run NOTHING over the bridge.)
These politicians are just trying to deflect blame in the event that the media latches onto the fact that Brooklyn subway service has stunk since 1982 as a result of the loss of the bridge tracks, and none of these SOBs has bothered to notice. The mistake isn't complaining about the W. The mistake is failing to complain for 18 years. I'd personally like to see some outrage, but I'd like to see some of it directed to these paycheck collecting idiot time servers.
Do we even know where the proposed W train will run or what its proposed route will be? I have seen some articles in the popular newspapers and it made little sense and some articles were contradictory of one another. One infamous artice had the train going from Queens Plaza to Astoria. This is clearly in error unless the author of the article meant Queensborough Plaza which makes some kind of sense. Other articles had the V running through the 63rd street tunnel yet the sevrvice plan proposed by the MTA in the public hearing has the proposed V line going via the 53rd street line. Can someone shed some light on what the proposed route will be? It appears evident from all the ballyhooing that the north side bridge work will have to be done sooner or later. It may as well be done sooner rather than later since if it is done later it will cost far far more money to the taxpayer.
The W will run to Astoria during the rush hours, Queensboro Plaza during the middays. The V is scheduled to run thru 53rd. St, with the E.
Never look to the nwspapers for accurate transit reporting.
This is all part of a LONG TERM problem. Politicians are just noticing it now. Maybe if we did something 19 years ago about it we wouldn't be stuck with half-a-bridge.
BTW, anyone have any idea on the MU assignments for the Southern Division when this re route goes into effect???
Here would be my response to these criticizims if I were a TA official:
Shut the $@#!%@& up. You have no choice. We have no choice. Adjust to the unalterable realities that prevail.
...and follow the statement up by hitting someone in the head with a metal folding chair! Heh heh heh!
Now they are closing Grand street! I'm glad to see the Chinese community is outraged. They should be. Unfortunately because of poor planning in the long run, there really is nothing that can be done to solve the problem.
If they could just run the V to Grand, which I still argue makes a hell of alot more sense than the 2nd ave station.
Grand street is much busier than 2nd ave, and this should be the terminal. I can't believe a switch isn't feasible. In China there's the saying if "there's a will there's a way" then it can be done.
The people of Chinatown, as well as me, won't buy the MTA's hogwash until they start realizing just how important Grand street is.
It's seems to be one of the busiest stations in Manhattan, you can't just shut it down without any service.
You can't turn trains around at Grand street, it's going to be one track shuttle, how would you run mainline trains that way?
Arti
Now they are closing Grand street!
I think SubTalkers would know about a change like that before the Daily Snews does :)! Someone at the paper probably just needs to get their facts straight...
Grand St. is NOT closing. Just no access from Brooklyn. And a few minutes ago I posted the operational reason why the V cannot run to Grand St. The best course of action is a 4 car shuttle on a single track from Bway-Lafayette to Grand. You'll have consistent service on this.
Don't you think they could go walk over to Bowery and take the "M" straight to Sunset Park. While they're at it, couldn't they factor in some kind of mid-day "M" service, or if not, extend it by an hour either end of the rush hours, i.e. run it to 9:30 and start it at 3:30. There are ways around Grand Street's non-existence.
wayne
Took the 7:37 from Rockville Centre this AM. At about 7:35, the announcement was made that our train would be 4 cars short. At 7:37, in rolls a 6 car double decker. The ride was still packed, standees in all the aisles. Arrived Penn Station about 4 minutes late -- par for the course.
Are the LIRR's MU's so paralyzed by the snow that the DM's are being pressed into covering service usually run by the MU's? Yesterday, both my trains were 4 cars short, and there were multiple cancellations during the AM rush on the Babylon line.
My AM trains were also short (two cars) both yesterday and today. I get on at Mineola.
Are the LIRR's MU's so paralyzed by the snow that the DM's are being pressed into covering service usually run by the MU's? Yesterday, both my trains were 4 cars short, and there were multiple cancellations during the AM rush on the Babylon line.
Yesterday evening, I got the 5:23 to Long Beach out of Penn Station, connecting at Jamaica to a Ronkonkoma train that originates at Hunterspoint. To my surprise, and the surprise of many other people judging by their reactions, a diesel pulled into Jamaica bound for Ronkonkoma.
All the M-1's I've seen on the LIRR are going much slower than normal and make this awful burning smell. Snow is probably getting into the motors and causing problems. So why can't the LIRR clear the trackbed of snow?
I have a new invention, something that blows warm air onto the tracks and melts the snow.
I've noticed that burning smell more frequently on the MU's in the past few weeks. Used to smell it all the time on NJT, but never on the LIRR. From what I understand it's the asbestos in the brake pads burning off when the train stops short, but I suspect my explanation falls way short of what's really happening.
Asbestos?? Isn't that stuff banned because it's a carcinogen?
What is going on at the Stamford station? I haven't been there in a long time. the last time I was there they were rearranging the platforms. Has there been any progress lately?
Track 5 is in operation and sometimes MNcRR trains stop on it and have to open BOTH sides.
Hi,
I figure you guys are the ones to ask this...
I always thought the "Cutting Key" was a, well, key, like in lock and key. I saw a picture of one on the JoeKorner Web Site and it looks like a little wrench. How does that work? Do you have to unbolt something on the coupler? Thanks in advance.
Nat
Come up to Shoreline Trolley on New York days and see it in operation. I've gotten a lot of experience using a cutting key on an R9 and Low-V. Even the 17 and R9 when the 9 got stuck.
Soon though Jeff will have it all fixed and we won't need the cutting key and yes it is a wrench for the above cars. I don't know the physical connections, but I put it on a knob on the coupler and PULL!!! I'm sure someone will jump in with the dirty details and some BenGay for me....
1689 got stuck? When? How?
Lou, you've got cutting keys and cutting irons confused.
A cutting key is a little piece of metal, similar to a reverse
key, which fits into the slot on a cutting valve and allows you
to operate the valve. Opening the cutting valve admits air to
the cutting pistons inside the H2 coupler head and unlocks the
couplers, retracts the electric portions, and isolates the brake
pipe. On R-type equipment there is one in each cab (except
married pair blind cabs, of course) and another one directly
underneath accessible from the ground. Lo-Vs only have a cutting
valve down below since you have to be there anyway to make the
cut (disconnect the jumpers).
What you used at the museum in making your copayment to the
sweat equity fund was a cutting iron, aka cutting wrench.
This is a large angled square-head wrench which fits over
a square-headed shaft located at the top of the coupler head.
Turning this shaft 1/4 turn clockwise manually rotates the locking
dogs against spring pressure, allowing the heads to uncouple.
This procedure must be used when there is a problem with the air
cutting system, such as _was_ the case with 1689 and 5466
at the museum, or when you are cutting off dead cars that have
no main reservoir air available. This year, just before Autumn
in NY weekend, we completed repairs and the air cut works
and was in fact used.
Jeff, I got the same problem: referred to a cutting iron as a cutting key.
BTW, Happy New Year!
BMTman
And another benifit of hanging out in the shop was when I saw our own Steve K. with the cutting value all apart.
All the nitty gritty stuff that I & my new friends up there have seen first hand has given me geat pleasure. Jeff, Bill, Lou & Ted, amoung others, have been great teachers. Getting a little handle time on one of the big guys is just iceing on the cake.
Mr t__:^)
I stand correctd (going though Museum withdrawl and working 2nd job weekends now), >G<. Thank Jeff.
The cutting key is used the same way that you would think it would; to make a "cut" away from another car. Cutting keys are used on all SMEE equipment (not R44/46).
To make a cut:
1) Turn the control cutout to the on position and then insert your reverser and place it into the reverse position.
2) You insert your brake handle and place it into the emergency position.
3) You take your cutting key, insert it into the cutting slot which is below and to the left of the master controller, and after inserting, lift it up. (There is also a cutting slot underneath the train on the #1 end but this slot is used for maintenance purposes only).
This should release or "break" the two locks on the two couplers which would allow a cut to be made. If only one lock or no locks "break", an RCI must come to physically break the lock(s) with a hammer(according to TA rules).
4) You then charge the train up.
5) After charging, indication will not come in. Release the brakes, place the controller in the switching position (one point) and press the indication bypass button. The train will move backwards. Move the train no more than one foot. Make sure that any gates/chains between the two cars being cut have been removed before moving.
6) "Dump" the train, normal the reverser and move the cutting key to the down position and take it out. Turn the control cutout to the off position.
The cutting key is only used for the purpose stated above.
And that's how you cut a train. Hope this answered your question.
Thanks very much, as usual you gave a great answer. You should consider putting in for Motor Instructor when the next test comes up. You, Train Dude, Jeff H., Big Ed (and a couple of others) really add a lot to this board. The knowledge that you guys impart on a daily basis is greatly appreciated.
Nat
Oh, another thing, to couple to another train is it the same process in reverse?
Thanks again!
A quick synopsis as to how to couple a SMEE (non R44/46) train:
1) Make proper safety stops(2 cars, 50 feet and 10 feet. 3 cars instead of 2 in inclement conditions) and stop 2 feet away from the standing cars. Place service brake in full service.
2) Inspect the standing cars, make sure that proper handbrakes have been applied. After inspecting, make sure that the two couplers are properly aligned. Also make sure that the coupler pins are retracted and the pin "doors" are closed.
3) Make the add at no more than 1 mph. The train should "dump" automatically upon coupling. If the train does not couple, one of the reasons could be:
3a) One of the air angles have been pulled underneath one of the cars. Push back in the air angle(s) then re-try.
3b)If a cut was made earlier, the cutting key is still activated in the cutting package. Remove the cutting key then re-try.
4) After waiting 17 seconds "penalty time", charge the train. You'll then hear two "boomphs" meaning that the train is now properly coupled. Turn off and on the car body lights and make sure that the lights in the opposite cars blink to verify electrical coupling.
5) Dump the train, take your operating tools and leave. When charging, make sure that the train fully charges up, otherwise the train could "quick charge" (charge itself up).
Thanks Zman, I see that the procedure is different. I would say that making sure that the proper handbrakes have been applied on the standing cars is VERY important. If not, the "boomphs" could become BOOM when you send the standing cars careening into the barn or bumper.
(If you're a "Honeymooners" fan: "You're not boomphin' right Norton").
Schoolcar's over for today,
thanks,
Nat
>>>I would say that making sure that the proper handbrakes have been applied on the standing cars is VERY important.<<<
That is in my opinion the #1 thing to check out on the standing cars.\
>>>(If you're a "Honeymooners" fan: "You're not boomphin' right Norton").<<<
There is no key Ralph. You gotta boomph your way out. :)
Wasn't that the sketch with the trick handcuffs? According to Norton, "There ain't no key, Ralph. You gotta boomph your way out."
That's right Steve...
Nat
Thank you for the wonderful compliment! :)
I try to answer questions using the Train Operator's point of view. Individuals like the Train Dude and Jeff H. know the mechanical and technical points of a subway car wayyyyyyy more than I do. They're a couple of smart cookies and I've gotta hand it to them.
Hopefully when I reach Motor Instructor in a couple years, I'll be able to vastly increase my knowledge of the mechanics/technicalities of a subway car even though the TA has "dumbed" down the title in recent years.
Thanks for sharing, I enjoyed it very much !
Mr t__:^)
Besides Lou from Brooklyn, I've also had some experience using the "cutting key". Yes, it is a wrench, but it is a big-ass one, almost the size of a crow bar. It needs the length since serious leverage is needed to uncouple a set of H2C cars. I busted apart the IRT LowV and R-9 on the last day of operations on "Autumn in New York" weekend at Brandford.
BMTman
You are confusing a cutting key with cutting irons. The cutting irons are the long square wrench. The cutting key is a small slotted wrench with a tit on one side.
Thanks for the clarification, Steve.
The cutting key is a small slotted wrench with a tit on one side.
Freudian slip?
Nope, that's what we call it. We also have cut out cocks and angle cocks. As an RCI, I carried titless keys for the R-44/R-46 (titless keys were illegal except for Car Equipment employees). The nice thing is after about 5 minutes in school, the adults get over their snickering and realize like many other english words, these can have more than one meaning and in any event, as adults, we ignore the sexual connotation - on the job.
Nope, that's what we call it [tit]. We also have cut out cocks and angle cocks. As an RCI, I carried titless keys for the R-44/R-46 (titless keys were illegal except for Car Equipment employees). The
nice thing is after about 5 minutes in school, the adults get over their snickering and realize like many other english words, these can have more than one meaning and in any event, as adults, we ignore the
sexual connotation - on the job
Maybe, but in today's p.c. world all you need is for one hypesensitive person to take offense and scream sexual harrassment, and all Hell breaks loose.
WHOA! LOOK OUT FOR THE TRIP COCK!!!
Pity all the prewar cars are gone - they used to issue butt plugs for the electric braking. Back when those were issued, the TMO's were nicer to ya lest you suggest an alternative to the cab for placement.
Good point Train Dude.
That reminds me: there are many more RR related items that have a sexual connotation. While, Thurston, Lou and I were doing trackwork up at the Shoreline Trolley Museum this fall, we were using a tool called a "Dog's Dick" to extract spikes from hard-to-get-at angles. The name of the tool is self explanitory....;-)
BMTman
Railways being traditionally male-dominated workplaces and
having an overall phallic motif, the origin of these vulgar
terms is not surprising. Of course, hanging around the museum
you've seen plenty of examples of one's [lever-actuated valve]
getting stuck in a dark place and needing some lubricant and
gentle persuasion.
I wouldn't even care to mention the slang term for the trunion bolt but those are just that, slang expressions. On the other hand, if you need a 3/4" ball cock, I believe that is the legitimate name for the device. At one time, george Carlin did a bit about the double meaning of words. One was, "You can prick your finger but you can't finger your ......................... I think that example makes the point best. Many years ago, the TA made a concerted effort to remove gender-based titles like motorman or towerman or foreman from our vocabulary. No such effort was ever made to re-name legitimate parts of a train.
Then please explain the car-borne tripping device that we all learn about in School Car.
That's easy! Your school-car instructor is a weenie.
TA has tried we now have:
car borne tripping devices not trip cocks
straight air and brakepipe angles not angle cocks
we sound our horn not blow it
we no longer lay-up trains we place/take them to the storage yard
Perhaps you do. My cars still have angle cocks and trip cocks. My cleaners still clean the lay-ups and my RCIs pre-inspect them. And heaven help the inspection line car inspectors if they do not blow the horn when performing their inspection. It will be that way until I get a memo from Labor Relations that states that we can no longer refer to those items by their current terms.
Good for you Dude ! Too many folks in this country are paranoid about everything that MIGHT be taken the wrong way by some over sensitive person. Not that you don't have to be aware about stuff that you just don't say or do anymore, but some things are getting carried away, e.g. folks are afraid to say Merry Christmas for fear the person might be .... well you get the point (I'm not talking about offending Jewish folks).
Mr t__:^)
That's when you say Happy Holidays. Also, how about honking the horn?
The most incorrect term is "angle cock". This is derived from
mainline railroads, which still use true angle cocks to isolate
the brake pipe. An angle cock is a large assembly (ok girls,
stop giggling) where the handle is at a 45 degree angle and you
must lift it up to turn it. All trainline isolating cocks
used in NYC transit practice are either straight inline cocks
on the hose or pipe (e.g. gate cars, Hi/Lo Vs) or the same thing
placed further back on the pipe with extender rods (all of the
R-type equipment).
Webster says: "Cock = A faucet, tap, valve, or the like. The act of cocked position of a hammer (firearm). Half cocked."
Webster also says: "Intercourse = Dealings or connections between persons, organizations, or nations, as in common affairs, or business; communication. (the OTHER meaning is listed second !)
Mr t__:^)
Does it say anything about a rooster?:-)
Gack! Do you guys also have to "recycle lunch" when saying those words? (upstate we STILL hump cars if we're not knocking 'em) ...
I think the problem is too many lawyers chasing too little work.
Mr t__:^)
I had a problem with a hobo harrassing passengers on a train a few years back and had to call command center for police. I still call them that from time to time. Never was told I couldn't, despite the memorandums and bulletins call them control. But anyway, I referred to the hobo as a "skell" on the radio. Nothing wrong there, the intent is the same but the desk superintendant decided to chastize me ON the radio for using that word as if I violalated the FCC statutes of the century. I replied to them to the tune of, "I have a financially disadvantaged individual bothering the paying passengers entraining and detraining the train." I'm sure the great Dr Deekman would have agreed, the one who wrote the blue book of customer communications replacing the famed practices of "step lively" and "watch the closing doors". Never the less, I had to give them the traditional phone call upon the arrival at the terminal, in which I was instructed to call the passengers customers and not to be a wiseguy again. I continue to use "trip cocks", "pet cocks", "angle cocks" and the like because I still have my school car books that call them that. We still have those on the lines who refer to the "D" line as DOG, the M as in Madness and the 2 as the beast. The TSSs in school car have a lot less time than those on the road and without the job security of a real pick can be easily brainwashed into thinking that RT5C was a can of cola. One of my favorite Assistant Train Dispatchers retired today after 34 years of service. Another dinosaur title like motorman instructor or assistant chief trainmaster or assistant general superintendant. Change is hard to get used to and some don't like it at all but it is part of the job. I just hope I don't get a suspension for operating a train with "long brakes".
Your little ditty with control center and all this talk about sexual innuendo reminds me of a little incident when I was a C/R.
One weekday I was working the E at around 3pm. As I was closing the doors at 5th Avenue, a male passenger comes up to me and says that there is a homeless man masturbating in the last car in front of some women. I notified control and they told me to check it out when I reached 7th Avenue.
So at 7th Av when I reached the last car, I didn't see any homeless men inside. I asked one of the passengers if they had seen anything and they said no. Control came back on the radio and asked me if I had seen the homeless man masturbating. I said that there was no sign of him, he must have GOT OFF.
It took the dispatcher at control a few minutes to regain his composure.
Re: using "Non-Politically correct" terminology:
Is it true that the couplers between married pairs on R-26's were replaced by drawbars some years ago, as in the later IRT cars? This would prevent someone from making reference to the "Catholic" and "Protestant" married pairs, as they were once known as. (Married pairs with couplers were "Protestant", because they could be "divorced" easily in the yards, while those with drawbars were "Catholic".)
Yes. I remember the R26,R27,R28 cars having H2Cs on the number two truck. In Pitkin when I worked extra, there was a recepticle on the R27/30 car's #2 end for battery jumper cables to run car to car. this way upon cutting the cars for misc inspections, the air car can be safely backed off and still have the low voltage to control the contactors, B2, ETC. I'm not sure that cutting the married pairs was an RTO responsiblity as I never did it personally, maybe Train Dude can elaborate more as to how they made the move (RTO is SUPPOSED to provide all movement of trains).
If that dispatcher had a rim shot button at his disposal, he probably would have pushed it.
[Of course, hanging around the museum
you've seen plenty of examples of one's [lever-actuated valve]
getting stuck in a dark place and needing some lubricant and
gentle persuasion.]
Well, Jeff, I can't speak for myself on this topic. However, I'd have to assume that you have had some personal observations of this problem?...:-)
BMTman
Guys will you behave yourselves? I not sure what Jeff is referring to, but I wonder if mating cars should be classified as copulation? Are H2 Heads considered to be the genitalia of the fleet?
I'd be happy to raise a flock of REDBIRDS at Branford....
RIGHT ON!!!!
-Stef
Is it too late to bring up "mixed marriages"?
Oops! They're certainly aren't any same sex marriages out there, but cars have been divoreced and remarried. Should the cars be classified as Protestant Married Pairs, or something to that effect?
Oh yes, but what about the sex change that made R-32 female 3659 into male 3348? I don't get it sometimes....
-Stef
Now somehow I just knew you were going to interject that device. We did have a little fun with the name that Sunday, especially with the area boys who showed up to help change some ties. I'm now wondering if "snorting" is just a "MOW Bill" term or something used in general by Gandy Dancers ?
To the rest of you ... can you believe that a bunch of guys ENJOYED working on the RxR, digging out & changing ties, lifting rail, spiking those ties, using a jack hammer, getting greasy & oily ? It was satisfing work, especially when you are the guy/gail driving a R-17 or a trolley over those new ties ... no more clickly clack or thump thump. Now if I had to do it every day I don't think it would be so much FUN.
Mr t__:^)
It was fun SUNDAY, sure wasn't too much fun come MONDAY...
(Opps another sexual remark to the DAY AFTER..)
It's funny that you mentioned Gandy Dancers. I haven't heard that job title in a long time.
Many years ago Frankie Laine recorded a record called The Gandy Dancer's Ball on Columbia. I think it was around 1952. It was a very "peppy" song. It did well on the hit parade at the time. I think Frankie was trying to see how many railroads he could mention in the song.
>>>It's funny that you mentioned Gandy Dancers. <<<
What, exactly, is a Gandy Dancer? I've heard the term before but do not recall what it means.
Peace,
ANDEE
Andee, Next Fall you'll have to join the track week-end & we'll SHOW you. The BMTman & I saw it first hand one raining Sat. MOW Bill was showing us how to set a spike & it went flying ... we had to DANCE out of the way not to end up with it impailed in our leg.
It's a term for MOW track workers .... may fit us rather inexperienced workers best.
Mr t__:^)
And I have a cock/blowdown/saftey release....
I bet your wife is glad that you have one of those. :)
Tower at 47th/50 Rock has hand written sign in window (funny how messages get put in the tower window when the tower is on automatic) "PLAN #1".
I assume that this is for today Wednesday since on the weekend the hand written sign said "PLAN #4".
Still slow service this morning on the Brighton but I'm not complaining (my fellow pax were).
Now to more important things, what is the status and what plan is HeyPaul on today??
I was in Portland on New Year's Day. Here's what I noticed on the trip up: The foundation is just starting to be prepped for the future transportation center off of exit 2 (I-95/ Maine Turnpike) in Wells. It will be right in front of you once you come to the end of the ramp and pay your toll. (Exit 2: ME 9/ME 109 -Wells/ Sanford.)
In Portland, the new ramps for access to Concord Trailways are now open. You still take exit 5 from I-295 northbound. You now follow the sign for ME route 22 west (which guides you to the Thompson Point Connector Road). On the way in, note the sign which reads "Concord Trailways/ Train Station." Although there are tracks behind the station, there is no hint of any train station yet. You'll snicker about it too. Trust me! :>
By the way, will this Amtrak line service the new bus terminal in Portsmouth, NH? It's served by C&J Trailways and is off of exit 3 of I-95 (NH 33- Greenland/ Stratham). This exit is also for the Pease International Tradeport. Any answers will be appreciated!
There were up to 30 minute delays on Metro-North this morning particularly on the Hudson Line. I don't know what the cause was but either signal problems or frozen switches wouldn't surprise me. Unlike the last big snowstorm that practically cripped Metro-North at least this time the trains are running albeit with delays.
BMTJeff
An arrangement in which three persons(as a married pair and the lover of one or both of the pair) share sexual relations especially while living together. [Merriam-Webster's Collegiate Dictionary]
So how about this.
Limited GOH/ II to cheaply expand and enhance the existing fleet as brand spanking new R/143s come on line.
Take US Grade AAA Prime r/42 to be overhauled, to remove both cabs to expand passenger capacity. To refinish the seating color scheme to match that of the R/46s. To replace the brake, power and wiring systems to match that of the R46s. In short, to totally make these choice cars (R/42) 100% compatible with R/46s and thrust between an A/B married pair with draw bars. For the extremely kinky, thrust between the B B of an A B B A foresome yeilding an A B X B A arrangement. The purpose of all of this is to allow 660 ft consist to run again on the "E" & "F" lines, as mentioned in "I Wispered In Her Ear"
Similarly Some R/32s are menage a troised into enough threesomes. These could be done with a less extensive GOH/ II . But again remove the cabs for more passenger capacity, or just one if three car cosists are perceieved to be in the running. This would allow a nine car consist to be created to eventually replace the "A" division cars on the Flushing #7 line and run the "N" to Main St. Let the #7 go to Astoria. If the Tooth fairy allows , extend the platforms on the Flushing line to accomadate 600 ft trains. Otherwise nine cars, but fatter.
One never have seen a better trailer then the R/44 Bs , do one?
I realize there is a segment in the community that abhor equipement missmatches, so I do emphasize true conversion. If the seating could be snatched from scrape track r/44s and installed in the converted r/42s giving lateral and linear seating , even better. I suspect thats asking much to much.
Change is inevitable.
Some States recognize alternate life styles, why not transit consists?
avid
Let the #7 go to Astoria...
Just where do you propose to do routine maintenance/cleaning for the Astoria-Steinway trains?
Times Square, see what Rudy did to all that snow! Just kidding.
Still use the Yard at Flushing Meadow, just less , because of less overall train sets.
avid
Still use the Yard at Flushing Meadow, just less , because of less overall train sets.
Just how are you going to move the trains from the Corona Yard onto the Astoria line during rush hour?
The centre track at Hoyt Avenue-Astoria Boulevard station comes immediately to mind.
wayne
The centre track at Hoyt Avenue-Astoria Boulevard station comes immediately to mind.
Running time between Ditmars and Times Sq is 22 minutes. A two minute layover at each terminal brings the R/T time to 48 minutes. This tranlates to 16 trains for 20 tph service. The NYCT spares average is 17% or 3 trains in this case.
Are you sure you have enough room at Hoyt Ave to service 3 trains and still provide regular passenger service. It seems like a pretty cramped shop. Where do you plan to locate the gantry crane? Are you sure you have clearance under the El for a service pit? Remember, an oversize truck did manage to demolish part of the Hoyt Ave Station a couple of years ago.
20 minute headway night time service requires 3 trains max. Where will you be storing the other 13 trains? BTW is this the same centre track you plan to use for LGA express service?
Thank you . You bring up many very valid points. There was a float barge slip very close to the Vernon Blvd. station and a cut leading to it. Could this possible be the answer we need. If not is there any vacancies in the Sunnyside yards?
Express to LGA.... Forgetaboutit! A branch off the approach to the Hellsgate built over the BQE near the Cemetaries would stir up less NIMBYS . Steve you are an Inspiration. You encourage thought. Do you have any other points not covered yet, we're making real progress here, don't you think.
avid
There was a float barge slip very close to the Vernon Blvd. station and a cut leading to it. Could this possible be the answer...
The LIRR freight line between 48th and 49th Sts (LIC) is gone. It has been turned into a very nice little park.
If not is there any vacancies in the Sunnyside yards?
There are plenty of vacancies in the Sunnyside Yards. One could hide a few 80 MW gas turbine generators there before anybody became aware of their presence. However, every government agency - AMTRAK, LIRR, NYC - feels that they own the air rights and are jealously guarding what they consider to be a financial bonanza.
Do you have any other points not covered yet,
For starters they placed the new Queens Plaza Master Tower in the path of trains from Astoria trains turning onto 23rd St on the way to the Steinway tunnels. Demolishing it and replacing it with a technologically modern facility might be the only tangeable benefit to returning the Astoria Line to the IRT.
The major problem with the plan is that the Steinway Tunnels would be underutilized. The line can accomodate 40 tph, thanks to the tail tracks at Times Sq. Astoria only use would use only 20-24 tph.
Thanks for your transit consist explanation. But I'd rather have the one mentioned by Webster's thank you very much.
Yea
avid
Then there was the C types on the BMT els. Motor cars were of the 1400 series of 1907, the trailer was an 1893 steam coach. They did remove the Manhattan seating arrangemnt on the motor cars and make them bowling alley so the interiors were similar.
Mechanically a sound operation but with all the added hardware..visually..eauty is in the eye of the beholder! Please.
I find this station to be very mysterious. Has anyone ever taken a tour of it? Are there are any photos online to look at?
It's so mysterious, I've never even heard of it. Any information?
It is located at 102nd Street and Atlantic Avenue on the Flatbush Branch of the LIRR. It is an underground station with two tracks and two bay platforms. It appears to be standard length, with beige square tile and purple name tablets. There is a center stairway on each side in the center of the station itself, there is no mezzanine or crossover, but there was no fare control either, so you would cross the street to get to the other side.
I don't have any pictures of it; this description is based on visual observation; I was on a few trains that stopped there many years ago (in the days of the MP-54s).
wayne
Kevin Walsh has some information and pictures of the elevated Woodhaven station on the Rockaway line at Forgotten-NY, and there's a short blurb on Joe Brennan's Abandoned Subway Stations page as well. I'm sure Bob Andersen has more information (while I'm promoting websites, his is LIRR History).
I actually remember when it was on the schedule and trains stopped there. It was only about 2 or 3 trains a day each way. Now, whenever I take the Bklyn line I try to see if I can find it out the window. It is extremely dark and hard to find. A little easier at the railfan window but still hard. There is a switch just W/O it on the E/B side which you can hear and feel which lets you know you're just about there.
By the way, who else remembers the Union Hall Street Station? It was just E/O Jamaica Station on the Main Line and only the Hempstead Line (and possibly the old East Williston Electric trains) stopped there. I assume they closed it because it was too close to Jamaica Station. Small parts of the platforms are still there. I seem to remember a Bellaire Station near the Queens Village Station which Hempstead trains also stopped at. Of course there was no station at Hillside Facility then as there was no facility there.
By the way, I'm 47 years old and I'm talking about the 50's & 60's.
When I was a kid, in Jamaica for a show or shopping I would go up on the platforms and watch trains go by . After a while I or my friends and I would go back down to the street level, head to the Green Bus terminal, It was behind the stores on NEW YORK Blvd , and catch a Q6 to South Ozone Park.
avid
Guy R. Brewer?
-Hank
This was Pre Guy R. Brewer. BTW he was a supporter of the resoration of the Rockaway Branch way back when a subway route was proposed through 1] Baisely Pond Park and
2] Down Van Wyck express way
back when the 4 billion bond issuue of the late sixties was ballyhooing lines to and from everywhere.
avid
I wonder why there have been no tours of this closed stop. It would make sense to visit the station in conjunction with tours of the Rock surface line.
I'm not aware of any sponsored tours of the Rockaway line. The pictures on Forgotten NY were taken on a walking tour coordinated by SubTalkers, and I'm sure no one here can legally get us in to the underground station. I'm still wondering how they got up to the Woodhaven Station, I couldn't find a way and I spent an entire afternoon looking.
I went with Mark W some time ago. We reached the ROW from a embankment in rego park. We walked from there to the Woodhaven El station. There is a side street a few blocks from the station which at the end there is a small embankment you can climb. But be warn, there is a small homeless population up there.
As for the underground station, Mark opened a access hatch under the el station. The old woodhaven stqation is lit by small dim lights.
I dont know if the hatch can be opened now but I wouldnt go down there if I was you.
I've walked frequently on the Rego Park-Metropolitan ave stretch along the tracks (on my way to and from my doctor), but the area S of the Lower Montauk is the biggest pain in the ass to try in the summer. I climbed down to it after it went below street level, walked for about 20 minutes, but I gave after reaching the second or third underpass, and climbed up to it (some Forest Park road). The trees were just too thick, and I was wearing my good clothes. I walked along the street, found Woodhaven, but the only side street within 5 blocks either direction I found with a climbable embankment had a brand new fence (no one had yet cut a hole).
There was also a HILLSIDE station, just west of the Hillside Facility station, a fragment of the W/B platform support is visible, and the station-house is still there; it is somebody's garage. This station was located right where the Flyover joins the main line, just about at the west end of the facility building. The E/B platform I can not see any trace of it, but it may be underneath the Flyover tracks and hard for me to see from that angle.
wayne
Here's a picture of the Hillside station when it was still open.
OK,
The North side (IND) tracks are being closed. I am assuming this is only the section actually ON the bridge and the approaches.
Is it possible, to construct a short (300 - 400') foot connecting tunnel from the south side BMT tracks (just inside the tunnel) to the north side IND tracks? No fancy flyovers or flying junctions a la the IND, but like the BMT crossing at Myrtle/Broadway....)
With this arrangement, it might even be possible to put the "Q" back onto Broadway Express to 57/7, or .... QUEENS?!?!
Ok, the last part was a little far fetched, but I think it is very possible to construct a tunnel, again without fancy flyovers...since I am estimating the tunnel would not have to be longer than 400'. You will have a traffic disruption with the bridge while construction is going on, but I think Heavy Rail should come before Auto traffic. Moses is dead.
If you could bring back the can-do mentality that existed before the end of WW 2 imagine the service you'd have now. Queens IND to the city line, Jam. el to another outlying area, Pelham to Coop City, etc etc. People have been having to take a bus at the end of the train ride for 50 years too long. And add probably an hour a day to a round trip commute very day.
Yes I know, but this idea is reasonable, at least to me....I could go on about fantasies, such as a 4 track tube to replace the Manhattan Bridge, extension of the Bronx Els, the BMT line to Arrorchar, S.I., restoration of express service on the Sea Beach...but those are fantasies.
I still think it can be done, if started now.
How could I forget my pet peeve #1...the long overdue 2nd Ave. subway..maybe even an el but we know that's out. The east side and Queens seem to be hurting most from under-capacity. The rest you mention is interesting. Somebody sent me a clipping on an idea for a frieght rail tunnel under the Narrows..maybe they could do a dual purpose deal and include rail transit in it. Another thing I doubt we'll ever see. Since SI'ers were largely opposed to the Narrows Bridge in the 60's for concern about it bringing excessive development I wonder if that mentality would still oppose direst rail service. Personally I"d hate to see the ferry go out of business..which rail service could do. The ride is a treaure.
Trust me, they would love it. How many times can you let a skipped X1 bus on Hylan run past you? lol
My Queens dreams:
--F all the way to city line on Hillside--with a local and express
--A brand new subway, sharing th L from 8th Ave, then cutting off at Metropolitan Ave, then taking Metropolitan to Union Tpke to the city line---and maybe a branch up Continental through Jewell and 73rd Aves to Alley Pond Park (practically my doorstep!)
7 down Northern Blvd to Little Neck Pkwy
Well, a guy can dream, can't he?
:-) Andrew
Oh! And don't forget a conversion of the Lower Montauk, to share the 60th St tunnel with the N and R and go to Jamaica and maybe beyond.
:-) Andrew
I have spent at least 2 hours studying the 1939-40 World's Fair Approaches Map found in the second edition of "12 Historical NY Street & Transit Maps". I was not aware, until looking at this map, that this World's Fair straddled the Grand Central Parkway. I always thought the Fair was just on the east side of the Parkway. (Did the 1964 Fair also straddle the Parkway?) Almost makes me want to go on a field trip this Spring, map in hand, tracing where things used to be from this Fair at today's Flushing Meadows Park. (Do I smell a field trip, anyone? :)
Anyway, one thing I looked at, and still wonder about, was why the IND World's Fair Railroad was not extended further north, even a little bit. While there was a proposal to add additional stations on this stretch, I don't think a proposal ever arose to extend it north of its original terminal. It ended in the amusement area of the Fair, so it basically took people home, while the IRT/BMT gate along today's Flushing El served to deliver people to the Fair. The IND terminal was only a short distance south of Horace Harding Blvd, and there were plans of the IND Second System to run a line under Horace Harding Blvd into Eastern Queens. These plans were still under consideration in 1939 (and in fact, this rapid transit extension map is also found in the second edition of the street/transit map box). With all the "forward thinking" the IND had (Van Wyck Stub, Roosevelt Ave terminal station built in phase I in anticipation of the line to Rockaway, the S 4th St "station", Utica Ave), it seemed to blow it big time planning this one. This line could have enabled a transfer to the Horace Harding Blvd Line. Perhaps, with this extention being built, there could have even been a Horace Harding Blvd line. There seemed to be enough population in that area at the time to support it.
Yet the map seems to partly indicate, perhaps, why the line was never extended, or why those stations were never built. East of the IND World's Fair ROW was nothing but golf courses (Arrow Brook, Queens Valley), and the area was still very rural. There was really little housing until Horace Harding Blvd, and maybe the IND fathers decided that the axiom that "population follows transportation" would not apply in this case. Also, there was still a LIRR Whitestone Branch to northeast Queens that the line may have had to compete with.
Thoughts anyone?
--Mark
John H. Delaney would have loved this one.
The IND Spur, as constructed, was a temporary terminal designed to take and draw some people from the joint BMT/IRT service operated over the Flushing Line. Remember, as this is KEY, that the IND, IRT and BMT were all seperate, independent traction companies. This is why you had a 4 track IND subway, while a totally rebuilt Dual Contracts El operated...all under and above Fulton Street in Brooklyn. Why? Simple. Draw people away from the wooden BUs and C units, and the freezing cold weather and give them faster, steel subway cars, modern stations in a underground setting. For the same nickel. The el didn't have a chance. The Board of Transportation knew this. You could still hear the ghost of John Hylan laughing when the Fulton El was torn down :(.
Getting back to the IND spur, the line was in competetion only for the 1939-1940 season, because for the 1940-1941 season, the system was unified. That's was you don't see those Blue and Orange WORLDS'S FAIR maps after the first season.
At the time, the IND spur was constructed through a ash dump, which makes up most of Horace Harding and the Van Wyck Expressway. Today, travel south on the Van Wyck from the LIE and you will see the Jamaica Yards on the right, the IND spur line lead took the exact ROW that the Van Wyck today now uses. Fredick Kramers' "BUILDING THE INDEPENDENT SUBWAY" and "THE WORLD'S FAIR" will go into much greater detail what transpired during the 30s.
If the spur was constructed with stops at 69th Road...or Horace Harding...I am certain the IND spur line would exist today. The IND Second Plan failed firstly because of the Depression, and again by the advent of WWII. There are many IND plans for a much more involved system, but this was before unification. Perhaps they still would have expanded after 1940, but not to the extent that was planned way back in the late 20's.
Was Robert Moses a factor during this time? Maybe. Always private auto in favor of transit, it sure was possible for him to negate any chance of extending the spur to Jewel Avenue, or any other route, but then again, the line was built just for the World's Fair. Had a station or two been built in between the Jamaica Yard and The three tracked terminal, then we might still have a fine spur line today.
Your comments are all valid, and when the Worlds Fair railroad was planned in 1935, as you state, the subway operators were competing with one another. But in 1929 the IND Second System also planned, for the first time, routes that did not compete with anyone, and attempted to get new customers first, also "taking away" from the other subway operators. Since the WFRR line was already being built (guaranteed), it wouldn't have taken much more money to extend it to a "worthwhile" terminal like Horace Harding Blvd, which, according to the 1939 Board of Transportation map, had a proposed line to eastern Queens that also didn't compete with any of the other traction companies. So a scenario would have been set up where one of the intersecting lines was completed, and that may have given the other line a better chance of being started (or at least, given a different priority). Something that was "temporary" could have become permanent and been useful with a relatively small expenditure.
And the IND could have achieved its goal of "taking passengers away from the other subway operators".
Fredick Kramers' "BUILDING THE INDEPENDENT SUBWAY" and "THE WORLD'S FAIR" will go into much greater detail what transpired during the 30s.
Yes, I'm aware of those references. But have you seen my History of the Independent Subway?
--Mark
I lived in the Flushing Meadow Park area for 31 years, and have visited the Park many many times. There's isn't a lot left from the 1939-40 Fair; Robert Moses did away with a lot of the remnants for the 1964-65 Fair. One of the more striking remnants was the old ice skating rink that used to straddle Meadow Lake; it was demolished in the mid-1990's, but the foundation remains as a low, white structure. The Unisphere, twin towers and New York State Pavilion building, as well as Terrace on the Park, the Queens Science Museum and Shea Stadium are all remnants of the 1964-65 Fair.
I think Robert Moses had a very big hand in the demolition of the IND spur. If you read "The Power Broker," you'll see that Moses was very against mass transit and wasted no time getting the spur demolished so he could use the cleared ROW for the Van Wyck. Moses' power was very great in 1940 and he had much of city government under his thumb.
All valid points. Moses was transit's death knell. Thank God he didn't surface until much of the IND was constructed, I'd hate to see the result.
Moses also:
* Kept the Subway off the Verrazano Bridge in 1959.
* Drew funding away from Transit and into moronic and ugly projects
(Gowanus Expressway, Parkway system with purposely-built low
bridges to prevent Buses from using the parkways)
Nice guy eh? Next time you wish your subway went further, you know who at least in part to thank.
I have to disagree with you about the parkway system. It was Moses' greatest accomplishment. Ugly & Moronic??? They certainly weren't ugly. Before they were widened and the wooden light poles were replaced the parkways were absolutely beautiful. Buses & trucks can use the expressways. Even now the parkways are still pretty, especially in the fall with the changing colors and the winter with its snow. Its just less beautiful with metal light poles, school buses, pickup trucks, airport vans, and 3-4 lanes. Take the Northern State E/O the Wantagh Pkway to see how nice Moses' ideas were. Now the LIE is ugly!!!
And the IND wouldn't have gone East of Queens anyway!!
THANK G-D FOR ROBT. MOSES!!!
In fact, many of Moses Parkways were never meant to handle rush hour commutation (Taconic Parkway comes to mind).
I, too, liked those wooden style light poles you're talking about. The Belt still has a few of them, widely scattered, most on exit/entrance ramps.
In 30 or 40 years, people will be talking about how the Eisenhower Interstate System wasn't built to "today's" standards.
--Mark
The wooden light poles can be found a in a number of parkways in downsate New York:
The Ocean Parkway, where there are any lights at all.
The Wantagh Parkway, south of the Southern State Parkway
The Palasades Parkway, at Bear Mountain
and a few state parks.
:-) Andrew
In 30 or 40 years, people will be talking about how the Eisenhower Interstate System wasn't built to "today's" standards.
Well, it's always nice to hope that in 30 or 40 years from now, "today's" standards will involve two steel rails!
-- David
Chicago, IL
Or one concrete rail
Mark - this may be a nit - but nonetheless - To the best of my knowledge, the Taconic was not one of Moses projects. There was some sort of East Hudson Parkway Authority and I believe they are the ones responsible for the Taconic.
As for who ran the East Hudson Parkway Authority - I think the Roosevelt family had something to do with it. I read up on this about a year ago and just don't remember seeing anything involving Moses name with regard to the Taconic.
Some trivia for those of you familiar with the Taconic - the original name of the Taconic was the "Eastern State Parkway." That was around the '30's into the '40's when it took on the name of the Bronx River Parkway Extension (in part.) In the late '40's the road was renamed the Taconic State Parkway.
Sorry for the slight diversion here - but - I live near the Taconic and happen to know a little about it.
Actually, the Taconic was one road Moses tried to block! From Steve Anderson's NYC Roads page, the Bronx River Parkway Extension was created by the Taconic State Park Commission, headed by FDR. Roosevelt had to get his funding from Moses' State Parks Council, who wanted more money for his pet projects on Long Island! Remember, Moses loved Long Island and probably couldn't care less about what happened north of the City. Jurisdiction was transferred from Westchester County to the East Hudson Parkway Authority in 1961.
Ahh, you learn something new every day. Thanks for the quick history lesson!
--Mark
I've read THE POWER BROKER, and Robert Moses, even though he was a great architect and builder of NYC and LI's highways, parkways, and bridges, was A RACIST. The word POWER has many meanings, and not all are positive.
Whether or not Robert Moses was a racist is very debatable. I too, personally believe he was flamingly racist but some other people (parkway-lovers) would say otherwise. The undisputable fact is that within the city of New York, Moses routed his freeways through Minority areas on purpose. Much of this is due to the fact that minority areas had next to no political clout and thus tearing down their houses to build elevated highways was a lot easier. Take, for instance, the routing of the BQE - the way it jogs east after crossing the LIE before splitting and going around the Cemetery. That adds a couple miles to the BQE but also made it hella cheaper to build. A lot of this was probably for economic reasons (no lawsuits, less property compensation cost) but one wonders how much was purely racially motivated.
Much of this is due to the fact that minority areas had next to no political clout and thus tearing down their houses to build elevated highways was a lot easier.
That is obviously true, but it has nothing to do with racism. It has to do with money. Rich people can stop things, and Moses was stoppable. The poor did not yet see the power of lawsuits and we didn't have those Pro-NIMBY laws.
Moses wanted to run the BQE through downtown Brooklyn along Hicks Street just like Red Hook. Rich Brooklyn Heights people had the power to force Moses to build along the bluff and build a nice promenade, Red Hook had no power. It had squat to do with racism. I'm sick of how people always assume it's racism when poor people are involved. That, in itself is racism, to assume that the poor have to be of one of the "inferior" races.
It's obvious that "minority" in this country refers to a minority of finances, not population. There is the mythic "race" of Hispanics, which is a underhanded way of creating a minority consisting partially of "white" people. And people from Spain, the original Spanish speaking county, aren't even Hispanic. A century ago, Irish, Italians and Jews were considered minorities, that's not true anymore, even though there are fewer Jews than many other ethnic groups. Just wait, when immigration from China dies down, Asians will no longer be minorities.
I look forward to all of your cries of racism. Remember, only politically correct people aren't racists.
Reading Caro's section on Moses' construction of the Northern State Parkway confirms his bias was more against the poor in general than against and specific poor racial group. The rich North Shore Long Islanders were able to shift the parkway south and through then farmland owned by poorer farmers in eastern Nassau and western Suffolk counties, who were almost uniformly white.
That's not to say Moses didn't have any racial prejudice in him, just that Social Economic Status mattered more then skin color or nationality as to whether or not ol' Bob was going to plow a highway through your neighborhood.
I didn't know that about him. I DID know that he was a SOB for putting the Auto ahead of Rapid Transit.
Thank God he didn't surface until much of the IND was constructed,
Moses first came into NYC government through fellow Republican John Mitchel, while Mayor Gaynor was recovering from an assassination attempt circa 1911. Mitchel was President of the Board of Aldermen and Acting Mayor during Gaynor's absence. Gaynor recovered and booted Moses out. Gaynor also negotiated and signed the Dual Contracts.
All valid points. Moses was transit's death knell. Thank God he didn't surface until much of the IND was constructed, I'd hate to see the result.
Wrong. All INVALID points.
Moses also:
* Kept the Subway off the Verrazano Bridge in 1959.
Typical Revisionism. In order for the subway to run over the bridge, the approaches would have to be much longer than they already are and the bridge deck stronger. All would cost $$$ that STILL isn't worth it for a SI connection.
* Drew funding away from Transit and into moronic and ugly projects
(Gowanus Expressway, Parkway system with purposely-built low
bridges to prevent Buses from using the parkways)
How do you expect vehicles to get around anyway? Subway tunnels?
The reasons for keeping busses off the parkways was because they weren't designed for mass transit, they were for scenic family drives.
Nice guy eh? Next time you wish your subway went further, you know who at least in part to thank.
Bullshit. Ignoring subways was the "vogue" of the time. Politicians could have stopped him and eventually they did. It's quite clear that this is what the prevailing mood wanted.
Typical Revisionism. In order for the subway to run over the bridge, the approaches would have to be much longer than they already are and the bridge deck stronger. All would cost $$$ that STILL isn't worth it for a SI connection.
Wasn't there a plan for a bridge that could have accommodated transit that Moses rejected? Or wasn't the bridge supposed to be a tunnel at one time?
--Mark
Your response is short-sighted.
Moses was a staunch opponent of mass transit. He believed that mass transit projects were filled with "pork", despite the fact that his own bridge and tunnel projects were similarly filled with patronage. If not for Moses, we would have a much more comprehensive and useful mass transit system than the one that currently exists. Its no coincidence that NYC's mass transit system has not had one new line built since 1940, when Moses' power was reaching its zenith, while hundreds of miles of subways were built before then.
It was Moses who was directly responsible for the creation of the Transit Authority in 1953. Moses wanted state and city funds to be available to him more readily (despite the fact that his TBTA had more money available to it because of bond issues), so he convinced Mayor Impelliteri and the state legislature to remove the mass transit system from the auspice of the Board of Transportation and give it to a "Transit Authority" which would have to be self-sustaining, like all other authorities. Moses KNEW this plan would fail, because the costs to run the mass transit would far outstrip turnstile receipts (tokens were introduced because of Moses' actions; up until 1953, when the fare went to 15 cents on the subway, turnstiles accepted nickels and dimes. When the fare was increased, a token was necessary because the turnstiles couldn't accept nickels AND dimes in combination.) Still, he wanted the subways and buses to be removed from the city and state budgets to the extent possible. He obviously succeeded.
Moses also considered the Verrazano to be his crowning achievement, and not only kept trains off it, he kept pedestrian walkways off it as well. The Verrazano was the first bridge built in the city to not accomodate pedestrians. Moses also killed off the Bay Ridge-St. George tunnel project, which had been on and off the books up until then. (Moses hated all tunnels, subway and vehicular - he was adamantly against the construction of the Queens-Midtown Tunnel and the Brooklyn-Battery tunnel, wanting a Brooklyn-Battery Bridge instead.)
Moses also pushed for the demolition of the Third Avenue El in Manhattan and the Fifth Avenue El in Brooklyn. Both of these railways were eating up City money, which he wanted, and the Fifth Avenue El's stanchions would come in handy for the Gowanus extension to the BBT. The result? Ride the Lex IRT sometime.
No one ever "stopped" Robert Moses. He was in power for 44 years and built almost every project he wanted because of his control over the city and state legislature. He was finally thrown out at the age of 79 by Rockefeller, who created the MTA with Ronan, and stripped Moses of his control of the TBTA. True, Moses built a lot of valuable highways and tunnels, but ignored the future needs of the city - the expenses involved in the upkeep of his structures and the need for mass transit.
Moses hated all tunnels, subway and vehicular - he was adamantly against the construction of the Queens-Midtown Tunnel and the Brooklyn-Battery tunnel, wanting a Brooklyn-Battery Bridge instead
A quote out of a book i own, Divided Highways (a very fair and accurate account of the construction of highways in America.
The Automobile should not be resorted to a tunnel - a great tiled bathroom.
My primary argument was that Moses could and eventually was stopped. However, no governor until Rockefeller wanted to do so. Governors are elected, this was obviously what people wanted. Every one of Moses' projects was approved by the City Council, which Moses had no power over.
Since the fare was going to go up to 15 cents at some point, tokens were inevitable.
The Third Avenue El was far from the jurisdiction of Moses, even the Lower Manhattan Expressway had plans to pass over the Third Avenue El.
The Verazanno Bridge was built without walkways partially because of its length but mainly because of jumpers. Either way, the bridge still has provisions for them, look at the towers.
As for the Fifth Avenue El, it was obsolete beginning in 1915.
Thank you. =)
Moses did indeed prevent the subways from using the bridge. 1959 plans had the second lower level as a future addition, with the same level of support, if not more so for the lower deck. It went for auto traffic in 1969. The approaches were already constructed with ample space either in the median or shoulder areas, which continue from the Brooklyn ancorage to 67th Street. Sea Beach trains could have easily taken advantage of this connection. As far as it not being worth it, there are 675,000 Staten Island residents who would disagree with you, and now must rely on diesel buses as the only halfway decent Manhattan connection, except for the ferry.
LaGuardia at the time of Moses' infiltration (1933 on) was steadfastly against most of Moses' lame brained ideas, but he was powerless to stop him. It took F.D.R., a sitting PRESIDENT...to kill the proposed Battery-Brooklyn bridge, which would have displaced many more people in Red Hook and Carroll Gardens than the present Tunnel structure. To say nothing of the blight that would have came on the Manhattan side!!
As far as how I expect cars to get around, I frankly DON'T. Especially in New York City, at 9 or 10 million people. In a city that swelled to over 9 million (or more) in the first part of the century, fast, efficent mass transit should have always been a priority. The thinking of "how vehicles should get around" clearly demonstrates to me that your priority would be an auto-based system of transport, like in Los Angeles, Phoenix, Houston, Dallas, or many other cities. The result? Smog, pollution levels beyond compare, sky high registration taxes and inspection costs. Again, in a city as large and vast in population as NYC, an auto-based system cannot reasonably handle traffic loads, unless you want to sit in a freeway for 3 hours to travel 10 miles, a la Los Angeles. I know, I have lived there. I'd take a 4 train uptown from the Battery to Grand Central any day over a cab. So would most rational people. Unless they love to look at the beautiful Gowanus elevated shitroad of a "interstate" highway.
There are only about 450K people in Staten Island, not anywhere near 675K.
The width of the Bridge approaches is not an issue, it is the LENGTH. The bridge approaches would have to be much less steeper for a subway line.
Finally, if you think that a city transportation model can be based exclusively on mass transit, then you're living in a dream world. How do you expect people to get between outlying parts of the region (like from Staten Island to anywhere except Manhattan?), or for essential goods to be delivered? It is wrong to expect a functional city to be based entirely on auto-transport. It is even more wrong to expect the opposite.
1. What Census figures are you quoting from?
2. If you will go back to my statement, I said the bridge feeds into the sub-grade auto highway. I never said anything about the WIDTH of the bridge. At nearly two miles from the Brooklyn anchorage (approx. 101st Street to 67th Street), a line could have been put in. I acknowledge the present grade would have to be modified, but there are many sections of the subway (BMT West End El - 4th Avenue, BMT Lawrence Street into DeKalb) that have almost equal (5-6%) grades. Again, the constuction of the present I-278 in southern Brooklyn affords the option of at least a 2 track standard gauge line, either in the median (with lanes shifted away toward shoulders), or via the shoulders of the sub grade floor.
3. New York City is the only major city in the U.S. without a direct rail connection. I expect goods to be transported via RAIL, like most every other city world wide. That was the purpose of the PA's creation in 1921, for a cross harbor link. They saw the need for such a link even 80 years ago. If that link would have been completed, you would have slashed to truck reqirements for shipping in this city, if not nearly eliminate them entirely.
I am not saying to deny auto transport. I AM saying that MASS TRANIST should have been a priority instead of highways and parkways designed to inhibit lower income people from using them.
Robert Moses did a lot of bad for public transit. BUT he was absolutely necessary for the development of the highway infastructure we have today. Nearly every major highway in downstate New York had his mark on it.
I say we need both our roads and our public transit. One shouldn't have to cancel out the other---Now where funding should come from, I just don't know.
At any rate, I'd take Moses' can-do attitude over today's pass-a-bill-then-a-referendum-and-in-ten-years-maybe,maybe,maybe-we'll-think-about-building-something attitude this country has had since the fifties or so---for both mass transit and highways.
(There are highway gaps in and arround New York too. No bridge over the LI Sound. I-95 is unfinnished through New Jersey.)
I-95 is unfinnished through New Jersey.)
By design. NIMBYs fought the construction of the complete I-95 through Central Jersey. That's why I-95 only has a small part in Central Jersey, and you have to loop back w/ 295 & 195 to get back to the continuation of I-95, around exit 8 on the NJ Turnpike.
NIMBYs also fought I-95 going straight thru into Boston, which is why it doesn't today.
The NY Times just had an article on this on December 29th, 2000.
--Mark
I-95 is unfinnished through New Jersey.)
By design. NIMBYs fought the construction of the complete I-95 through Central Jersey. That's why I-95 only has a small part in Central Jersey, and you have to loop back w/ 295 & 195 to get back to the continuation of I-95, around exit 8 on the NJ Turnpike.
NIMBYs also fought I-95 going straight thru into Boston, which is why it doesn't today.
The NY Times just had an article on this on December 29th, 2000.
--Mark
I think Robert Moses had a very big hand in the demolition of the IND spur. If you read "The Power Broker," you'll see that Moses was very against mass transit and wasted no time getting the spur
demolished so he could use the cleared ROW for the Van Wyck. Moses' power was very great in 1940 and he had much of city government under his thumb.
Except I don't believe that the city ever intended the spur to be anything but temporary.
...he could use the cleared ROW for the Van Wyck...
The Van Wyck Expressway was built after WWII as an approach road to Idlewild. The section between Queens and Northern Blvds - the one occupied by the Worlds Fair IND - wasn't built until 1962 as part of the 1964 Worlds Fair.
One of the more striking remnants was the old ice skating rink that used to straddle Meadow Lake; it was demolished in the mid-1990's
Are you referring to the Aquacade from the 1939 fair? That was a swimming pool not an ice skating rink. The ice skating rink was located in the still standing NYC Building from the 1939 fair.
There's isn't a lot left from the 1939-40 Fair;
Actually, I miss the Nike missle base they put in during the Korean War.
Shea Stadium wasn't part of the World's Fair; it was built by the city to serve as the home of the Mets and Jets. Bill Shea played a key role in bringing National League baseball back to New York; hence, the stadium bears his name. Casey Stengel was asked if he thought the Mets might get some runoff from the fair, to which he replied, "If there are any people at the fair, it will be because my ballpark is too crowded."
The other remnants you mentioned were intended to be retained permanently, along with the Singer Bowl and US pavilion. I visited the park in October for the first time since we visited the fair in 1965, and had Wayne (Mr. Slant R-40, who was with me) photograph me at about the same spot my father photographed my sister and me in '65, with the Unisphere and NY state towers in the background. It turned out to be an interesting picture; we were there in the morning and it was foggy. It's a backlit shot, more or less. Thanks, Wayne!
I want to visit the park again the next time I'm in the city.
I wish that it was done. If you would have had a station except the terminal on the spur line, I am certain that the line would remain intact.
The IND Spur line was an afterthought. When planning for the World's Fair began in earnest in 1935, the Jamaica Yards were already planned and constucted/being constructed. If there were not, I highly doubt you would have seen a spur line from Queens Blvd.
You do have an informative section on the IND, however the sources you list I have been very familiar with.
Why were the platforms not uniform in 660'?
I have some other questions, but BMT related
I have a video of the 1939-40 World's Fair which shows many of the attractions and exhibits. While there is no subway footage (bummer), it does mention that there was consideration for keeping the fair as a permanent fixture in Flushing Meadow Park. WWII put an end to this plan; however, one must wonder if the IND spur line would have been kept had the fair been kept on permanently.
A VERY Good chance it would have!!!
I cannot see to it that if the Fair structures were still intact, that the BoT would think about razing the line. Of course, a mid point station would have assured spur line survival.
I would have love to have a film clip of some prewar R MUs signed for "GG" or "E" service approaching the 69th Road overpass =(
I have an apartment on the 16th hole of the ArrowBrook golf
course :) That section between Horace Harding, Union Tpke,
Main Street and Flushing Meadows was rapidly developed after
WW II to house returning GIs and their baby-booming families.
There is a little bridge over the GCP which connects the
main body of Flushing Meadows Park with the Corona annex.
The Hall of Science and the Queens Zoo are located there, to
the west of the GCP.
why were some R17s turned into redbirds?
were any other non goh cars turned into redbirds?
Or were they GOHed?
why were some R17s turned into redbirds?
were any other non goh cars turned into redbirds?
were these cars Goh
What cartypes were turned into greenbirds?
Also what numbers?
Were they GOH cars?
Many R-10s and some R-26s became greenbirds. The Green was supposed to mean "limited overhaul".
--Mark
Were there any others?
(R21 7075 was one)
lincoln:
There was an R-17 that was a "greenbird" and the number was 6677.
BMTJeff
I remember about 10 R33s numbered 88xx's that were green.
10 R33's and about 120 Westinghouse R10's were painted this color in 1985-86.
Dumb question: Why were the R10's given this limited overhaul when the R16 was a newer car, one that didn't use that cumbersome pneumatic door system? I know the R16 was in awful shape, but so was the R10 at this time.
The R-10s were more reliable than the R-16s. That's part of the reason why the R-10s outlasted the R-16s.
--Mark
I refer to the R-10s as Thunderbirds, for obvious reasons.
is there a list of the R26s and R33s that got this overhaul?
No R-26s got that kind of overhaul -- they went right to GOH and were painted "Redbird" red.
Ten or so R-33s and one R-21 (7075, I think) were painted forest green, same color as the R-10s. Unlike the R-10s, however, these cars did not receive an overhaul -- it was just a paint job. The R-21 was subsequently retired, and the R-33s were subsequently GOHd and painted "Redbird" red.
David
You also forgot about R17 6677 she was also painted "Forest Green".
Thanks...I had a dim recollection of a R-17 being repainted but wasn't sure enough to post it.
David
Fourteen IRT cars were painted in that dark green paint scheme.
R-33 8842-3, 8846-7, 8848-9, 8856-7, 8860-1, 8862-3
R-17 6677
R-21 7075
Larry, RedbirdR33
howmany Non Goh cars were painted in Fox Red?
A handful of R-17s including 6688 were painted Redbird red. IIRC they filled in for the Flushing R-33 singles while they were out for GOH.
That is correct. 6688 put in some duty in most of the system, so almost anywhy we have her signed up was correct at some point in her stay there, e.g. Bronx #5, Flushing Line, Times Sq Shuttle, etc.
Mr rt__:^)
For the record, how many coats of paint were stripped off 6688? I'd have to say at least four: Fox red, white, silver/blue, and maroon unless it was repainted before getting the silver-and-blue treatment.
It appears the car was painted silver/blue twice.
-Stef
how could you tell that?
could it have been a thick layer of paint instead?
One layer of the silver/blue was clean, and then under it was all the graffitti. Just remember that 6688 spent almost of all her time on the shuttle from 1976-87, and these were among the cleanest in the system. They remained the cleanest into the 1980s when they were painted white and sported a blue interior.
-Stef
That makes sense, as most if not all IRT cars got a second silver-and-blue treatment in 1979-80. If 6688 did in fact spend all that time on the shuttle, it no doubt would have stayed clean. I rode on the shuttle during 1978-79-80 and couldn't help but notice how clean its cars were. I may have even ridden on 6688 back then without realizing it.
Did it have a coat of bright red paint beneath the silver and blue, or did it go directly to the original maroon?
Maroon was under the blue/silver.
-Stef
I may be mistaken, but I'm really unsure if 6688 actually showed up on the Flushing Line. I could swear I've seen a picture of it at an ERA meeting of a #7 train leaving Shea Stadium, but that might have been in fact 6618, with R-36s. Redbird's post puts some question into that.
The car was probably in continuous shuttle service from 1976 to 1987, a long assignment.
-Stef
another thing, i saw a picture of an R12/14 in Fox red. Why would this have been done?
I think its in the scrapyards section.
Many LAHT cars which weren't already red were painted red before the silver-and-blue scheme took hold.
Here's an example:
Look at the right edge of the photo. See the red poking through the green on 8724?
another thing, i saw a picture of an R12/14 in Fox red. Why would this have been done?
I think its photo is in the scrapyards section.
Someone in RTO/DCE was either using the car as a classroom, or perhaps it was a shed to store materials.
-Stef
Wait a minute. Where did you find this thread? It appears to be dated January, which should not even be on this board!
- Lyle Goldman
January 2001 at that. Notice the incredible difference in message #.
I suppose he searched for it, and the old messages still exist, but just aren't on the list?
Yeah, but you were never able to respond to archieved posts, this is truly strange. I vaguely even remember this thread. Very strage because it does say it's a thread from January????? How'd he do that?
That's all I'm asking!
- Lyle Goldman
Posted by R30 on Wed May 29 15:36:37 2002, in response to Re: Greenbirds, posted by Mark S. Feinman on Wed Jan 3 16:33:09 2001
I didn't notice it until someone mentioned it, but if you click on "first in thread" look where it brings you!
R10 #2974 was a Greenbird, and I miss them all. There were many others. Somewhere (I think William A Padron has it) there is a list of them all.
wayne
Paging Mister R-10, paging Mister R-10!
I got to have a B.M.T. Subway Sandwich today for the very first time.
The associate on duty told me that the B.M.T. stood for Boston Mass Transit. The home office of Subway is in Milford CT, and the CEO at the time of the sandwich's invention was a transit fan of the Boston system.
I have been thinking all of this time that it was named after New York's BMT, which we all know stood for Brooklyn Manhattan Transit.
What do you think of this explanation?
A cop out.
As every rapid transit fan knows there is only one BMT. And that one was based in Kings County, Long Island.
BMTman
Well, you reeled my in. The Boston line doesn't have a Sea Beach on it, so they are a pack of frauds. Come to think of it, none of the Boston lines I rode could compare to the Brighton or West End either. Now the 4th Avenue Local? Well, let's leave them out of this equation.
Well, you reeled me in. The Boston line doesn't have a Sea Beach on it, so they are a pack of frauds. Come to think of it, none of the Boston lines I rode could compare to the Brighton or West End either. Now the 4th Avenue Local? Well, let's leave them out of this equation.
Hey, Fred, maybe Subway should offer a Sea Beach sandwich (wrapped in paper with a big numeral 4, of course), along with a West End and Brighton. They could even number them on their menu in accordance with the original BMT number code.
My daughter's boyfriend has a sister who works in a Subway Sandwich Shop. I will make such a proposal. Let me see, a Sea Beach sandwich should have what? Of course, lettuce and tomatoes, Italian oil for dressing, and a combo of turkey, salami and ham. Yea! That sounds about as exciting as the LA Clippers. Let me think this one out awhile longer. A Sea Beach sandwich should be unique.
It should have a Nathan's hot dog from Coney Island, Genoa salami from Bensonhurst, kasha varnishkes from Borough Park, fried rice from Sunset Park, shawarma from Pacific Street, and sun-dried tomatoes from Brooklyn Heights.
What would a West End sandwich have, then?
Western Omlet with Italian sausage and onyooooooons!
avid
My stomach goes into convulsions just thinking about it. 8-)
Peace,
ANDEE
Same thing as the Sea Beach, except the Sea Beach is open-faced.
So, along that vein, a Brighton sandwich would be part open-faced, right?
Right, with slanted ends cut into the bread.
(Slant ends not available on the Extra Large sandwich).
That was the slant R-40 sandwich, actually. But it would apply to the Brighton as long as the slants are still running there.:-)
Which reminds me of the Franklin Shuttle sandwich.
It has the freshest ingredients, but it's only half the size it used to be.
We might as well round out the Southern Division with a Culver sandwich. What would it have? Oops, almost forgot about the 4th Ave. What about it?
The Culver sandwich was once one of the originals and one of the big sellers. Starting in 1954, half of the sandwich was replaced with bland ingredients and the other half was left to spoil.
LOL! Good one, Paul...:-)
BMT (sandwich) man
I was at a Subway restaurant in Scott City, KS the other night and had my usual Subway Club. You don't know how close I came to calling it an IND just to see how the folks behind the counter would react. All the usual maps, photos, and articles were up on the walls.
The Jamaica ELL sandwich was a special on fridays.
avid
I hear there's a Culver Sandwich in the works...but it will be sold at McDonald's.
I've BS'ed with several Subway sandwich employees and advised them of the TRUE origins of BMT. Some were interested some couldn't care less..in NoDak and Montana that's another language! I always order the BMT, no only for nostalgia but a seemingly good Italian combination that I enjoy.If you don't expect gourmet Italian food.
That wouldn't explain, then, the large number of NYC subway murals and photos on the wall of every Subway Sandwich Shop. Maybe the associate was giving you "IRT": Idiotic Revisionist Tripe.
I tried to explain the BMT, IRT, IND history, and 1940 unification, but he was firm on his Boston Mass Transit story. He also claimed that no one that he could remember had ever tried to order an IRT in any of the locations where he had worked. I got the impression that he was not from here in PA, but I never did ask him where he originally came from.
Just tell him the Subway chain was founded in Bridgeport, CT in 1965, the trademark for "B.M.T." sandwich was register from Bridgeport in 1975 and never had anything to do with Boston.
Besides, there's the common sense test. Nobody in Boston ever referred to the subway there as the "BMT" so why would you trademark something with a reference noone would understand?
Next this guy will tell you that they have to turn the bread upside down to make sandwiches for left-handed people ;-)
This was my first time buying at a Subway (I did like the B.M.T.). This one was in a food court at the Gettysburg Outlet Mall. There are no subway maps or signs in evidence on the walls, but it was a food court.
I did know from previous threads the origin of B.M.T. in Subway.
I tried to give him a brief history of the BMT etc, but he wanted to know if New York's BMT went to CT. He was very preoccupied with Milford Ct.
I got the impression that no matter what I said, he felt his story was better than mine. I guess his story was the first he heard, and the one that he will always remember, right or wrong!
...he wanted to know if New York's BMT went to CT. He was very preoccupied with Milford Ct...
Did you ask him if Boston's "BMT" does?
Never mind; he may have said yes :)
I always go for a Subway Club myself, which as far as I'm concerned could be renamed the IND. Most of the Subway restaurants in food courts don't have maps or newspaper accounts of the 1904 opening; only the sit-down joints do.
We have another Subway in town that I have never been in.
It is a sit-down, so I'll have to get my next B.M.T. there!
Check out the newspaper accounts of the opening of the Contract One segment in 1904. Not to mention the useful information for passengers.
It was funny to see NYC subway maps in a Subway in Montréal this past summer... I would have figured they would have had maps of the local system instead.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I would think "subway" has a decidedly NY connotation anywhere north of the RIo Grande.
Try an experiment (those of you who don't live within snorting distance of NY): Ask a friend: "Can you guess where we're thinking of going on vacation? My wife/kid/friend has never been on the subway."
See if they guess anyplace other than NYC, or if it takes them long to guess.
Just as I would know where you were going if you said: "On this vacation, I'm going to get in plenty of rides on the Underground."
You should see the looks I get when I suggest there ought to be IND and IRT sandwiches. Usually, it's along the lines of, "Huh?" It's not surprising when you consider all the people I've met who have never been to New York.
I'm glad that I never asked him that question!
This was a food court Subway so the usual Maps and pictures were not part of the decor. I should have thought about that and reminded him.
Tell him the BMT stands for "Bromo-seltzer Must Take."
MP? I like that. I was never a fan of the IRT anyway. To me the New York Subway was the BMT. To me the IRT was the Bronx, way out of it. The BMT was Brooklyn and Manhattan and Queens.
Since Boston's system is the Metropolitan Boston Transit Authority, and Subway sandwich shops are wallpapered with old New York City subway maps and photos of New York landmarks, I'd have to say that they can logically only be referring to Baltimore Mass Transit :)
Maybe we should revive that old thread from a few months ago about new names for Subway Sandwiches (R-10s, R-44s, etc).
Oh, no... :)
Or, we could come up with a new set based on Boston, since that's presumably what Subway's focus is. The Green Line: five pounds of sardines, served on a dinner roll ;)
Some of those were pretty hilarious, IIRC.
[Since Boston's system is the Metropolitan Boston Transit Authority....]
But it isn't; MBTA is the Massachusetts Bay Transportation Authority.
And........isn't the usual moniker for the Boston system "The T"?
Oops... that's right. I've been brainwashed into thinking that "M" always has to stand for "Metropolitan" when referring to transit :).
"T" refers to the subway, MBTA commuter rail, and ferries; "MBTA" is the T plus buses.
I think he was funning you.
Officially, "BMT" subway sandwich stands for "Big Meat Taste." But it's an obvious allusion to New York's BMT. Someone could correct me on this, but I don't believe Boston ever used "BMT." Before it was MBTA it was MTA, and before that I believe it was Boston Elevated Railroad, or BERR.
I think you're right on all counts, Paul.
BMTman (not the sandwich)
But Wait. Doug! (Not the Sandwich), There's More.
B.M.T. (with the periods) was registered by "Doctor's Associates" (the legal name of Subway) in 1975 at Bridgeport, CT (not Boston, MA) for the sandwich of the same name.
For the easily amused, two mini-facts. The Real BMT (ours) usually (not always) abbreviated themselves B.-M.T., keeping the hyphen, but I'm not sure whether it was to hook together "Brooklyn" and "Manhattan" in the name or keep the boroughs at arm's length (I prefer the latter).
Someone actually registered "B.M.T. LINES" as a trademark for a line of clothing in 1988 but the trademark was cancelled in 1995. It looked like this:
I think I like ours better ;-)
Someone actually registered "B.M.T. LINES" as a trademark for a line of clothing in 1988 but the trademark was cancelled in 1995
That must be Rat Race Design's "Bomb Mass Transit" line of graffiti-promoting shirts I found a while ago.
A ticket?? I can hear it now: "L train arriving at track 48 at 7:12 PM, departure time, 7:12:30..."
Someone actually registered "B.M.T. LINES" as a trademark for a line of clothing in 1988 but the trademark was cancelled in 1995
That must be Rat Race Design's "Bomb Mass Transit" line of graffiti-promoting shirts I found a while ago.
Maybe not the same people. Rat Race Design is at:
Gargano, Mike
Ratracedesign
4809 Ave N, Box 388
Brooklyn , NY 11234
while "B.M.T. LINES" was registered to Masterpiece Apparel, Ltd. in Manhattan.
I wonder if the current BMT Lines clothing knew about the earlier line.
Wow; competing rip-off clothing lines :)
Here's more on rapid transit related apparel labels: Modell's Sporting Goods chains (at least in the city) feature a line of denim jackets and jeans called "Brooklyn Express". The jeans looked pretty rugged, so I went and bought a pair. Needless to say I wear them whenever I'm railfanning or doing trackwork up at Shoreline...:-)
BMTman
In commemoration of National Engineers Week (which is in February, I think) every year, Cooper Union held a t-shirt design competition. The 2000 design was a black shirt with the blue "E" bullet on the front, but missing the left side of the E (either because the designer thought he was being cool, or to avoid copyright infringement). The back was a subway map that only showed the IRT lines (official reason: more colors would have been too expensive) with a couple of stops, and a red X on Astor Place with the words "You Are Here: National Engineers Week 2000."
As far as I know the Subway BMT sandwich (which is called the "Classic Italian BMT") was named for the BMT division of our own beloved subway. I asked this question of a store manager when I first began going to Subway sandwich shops and he was happy to answer the question. The restaurants are decorated with wallpaper depicting the opening of the IRT, the building of the IRT and even what looks like a 1975-vintage Hagstrom-designed subway map.
I think they should use bullets (like they do for subway lines) to describe the Subway sandwiches - like they do at Blimpie's (they use numbers; I am referring to my traditional Blimpie stops in Willoughby and Bridge Streets, in Park Row and also at Canarsie). I would use the "N" for the BMT, perhaps the "A" for Subway Club, "B" for Meatball, "E" for Cold Cut Trio, "F" for Tuna, etc. and would use the correct colors on the signs, of course.
wayne
The sandwich designations might get confusing during the Manhattan Bridge flip-flop......
...Would you have Orange and Yellow sandwiches with the same letters?
Only during peak hours in the off-peak direction. All other times, sandwiches operate local on the express track except for days with a full moon on which they skip-stop every other condiment.
-- David
Chicago, IL
>>>I think they should use bullets (like they do for subway lines) to describe the Subway sandwiches - like they do at Blimpie's (they use numbers; I am referring to my traditional Blimpie stops in Willoughby and Bridge Streets, in Park Row and also at Canarsie). I would use the "N" for the BMT, perhaps the "A" for Subway Club, "B" for Meatball, "E" for Cold Cut Trio, "F" for Tuna, etc. and would use the correct colors on the signs, of course. <<<
These references would have no meaning for anyone outside of the NYC area.
Peace,
ANDEE
I wonder what a slant R-40 sandwich would consist of.:-)
Naturally, it would have to be cut at a shovel-nose angle.
Sounds like BS but I wrote them to ask when I get a response I will let you know. In the mean time, look at their history BTW "SUB" is for submarine sandwich no mention of mass transit, SUBWAY SANDWICH SHOP HISTORY
Peace,
ANDEE
Yeah, in New Jersey, they're called hoagies. At least that's what we sold in band in high school. In NYC, it's heroes. In most of New England, they're grinders.
Here is the response I recieved from their corporate HQ.
>>>Dear Customer,
BMT stands for Biggest, Meatiest, and Tastiest.
Thank You
Lu Ann Fontana
Customer Service Rep<<<
Peace,
ANDEE
What next? Jared from the TV ads will be the train conductor? Anyway, SubWay is based in Milford, CT nowadays. It's also home to the Bic Corporation. (Proof? There's a Bic Drive exit from I-95.)
Did this actually exist or not? Stan Fischler's book on the subway suggests it did, while others say that no evidence suggests it was ever actually built.
I suppose they must have bricked up the wall at Atlantic Avenue, but I remember that the westbound local shared the platform with the LIRR and a simple wrought iron fence separated the trains from one another. Another three-four feet of rail and there would have been a connection. Is this what you're referring to?
There is a map of this connection which was drawn by a railfan
in the late 1920s based on personal recollections. It shows
I believe track 6 of the LIRR terminal extended west, then curving
south, following the wall of the station (there is a ticket
counter there now) until it met up with the manhattan-bound IRT
local track. This map indicates that the connection was built
in 1908 and used until 1916.
Actually, I believe the connection was still in use until about 1923, but I'm not completely sure.
BMTman
Is there any published picture of the Mineola or other Interborough equipment on the LIRR?
Dave, that's a good question.
I have never seen a picture of the Mineola on the LIRR, or any other IRT equipment for that matter.
Part of the problem with pictures of the Mineola is that few exist. And there was a reason for that. Legend has it that August Belmont was very protective and secretive about his personal activities. The Mineola was his 'baby' where he wined and dined the rich and famous, hence he wasn't too interested in having much publicity.
BMTman
The "3 Boro Field Trip" included a visit to the "pocket" on the north bound Atlantic Ave platform of the IRT. Just look north across the tracks & see where the connection WAS.
Mr t__:^)
The track map that I have from LIRR Historian Bob Emery shows that the connection was with track 1 not track 6. However, I seem to recall that someone told me that the tracks were renumbered sometime in the distant past so that it may have been track 6 then.
The tracks were renumbered, I've heard that many times. They will be renumbered after the rebuild too..
Yes, that's the map I am referring to
I understand that the trackWAY was built - its still there today. My question is, was there ever a track there, and if so, did Belmont really ever use it?
Back in those days there was little record keeping for the movements of rail equipment through the subway system.
I'm sure Belmont's car was given "clearance" (aka running rights) over the LIRR much like a G.O. would be put into effect for a run of the Nostaligia Train on revenue tracks.
One thing to keep in mind is that Belmont would certainly have wanted to get his guests out to the racetrack bearing his name on Long Island. What better way to do this from his hotel to the track than via his gorgeous 'Minnie' running down the Lex then over the Atlantic Avenue branch of the LIRR?
BMTman
To add to this I have my DUCK theory ... if it looks like, walks like, quacks like ... ?
The Minnie was kept at Belmont's hotel near Grand Central; the track connection was there; he liked to visit his race track; he liked to entertain is friends in grand style ... me thinks it's a duck.
Mt t__:^)
Belmont's hotel near Grand Central; the track connection was there
I have always wondered just exactly where that connection was located? Is there any trace of the track or trackway left today?
Cheers,
PJ Dougherty
I have assumed he used track one at the "H" after the Broadway line was extended south, i.e. just out of sight on the bend. Your map calls the area "1S".
I'll leave it to others to comment on what was done, if anything before then.
Mr t__:^)
I belive there's a photo in Stan Fischler's book that shows what may have been the hotel portal to the IRT tunnel. He doesn't indicate precisely where that is located in the tunnel, however.
I've always wondered about that photo. I don't think the portal covered by the rolldown door is tall enough to have held an IRT car. I think Stan's off base on that one.
I don't think he meant that the train fit through the portal; this was a pedestrian passage to the tunnel.
AFAIK the car was not kept in the hotel basement per se on
its own track. It would be held on track 5 (between tracks
1 and 2 west of the 42 St [GCT Shuttle] station), then
switched onto s/b track 1 and brought up to the loading door
which led into the basement. I believe this door is east of
the station as the track curves to the south.
I think the layout shown in Peter Doughterty's track book is incorrect for the Shuttle section. IIRC, at the Grand Central end it's a very wide platform, i.e. track 3 covered over. Also track 1 curves at the Times Sq. end (maybe this is just a space/printing problem).
Re: Track 5 ... I'll have to check that out the next time I'm in the area (the space for this extra track). Track 2 I know the story about, but I seem to remember seeing something else that looked a little funny between Times Sq & Grand Central.
Re: Roll door ... that's just where I thought it was. Also in the Times Sq station you can still find the "Knickerbocker" door. It's at the East end of track 1 platform.
Mr t__:^)
I don't think Pete's map book is meant to be to scale or exactly 100% representative of the location of curves, size of platforms, etc. Look at the #7 line in Manhattan, for instance. That line is just squeezed in where it fits, on the maps.
Belmont also served on the LIRR Board of Directors, or some similar echelon; hence his ties to the LIRR.
Isn't the Atlantic Ave LIRR line in the RPA's MetroLink plan to be converted to a subway line and connected into the system?
http://www.rpa.org/mobility/metrolink.html
Are IRT cars useable on this line, i.e. is the third rail compatible?
Who the hell uses the LIRR Atlantic Ave line anyway?
Who the hell uses the LIRR Atlantic Ave line anyway?
Ridership is much higher than most people would imagine.
During the rush it's quite popular for people headed for Wall st. The 2/3, 4/5 are only a few stops away, and it's practically across the platform to get to the 2/3.
Isn't that the terminal for the Hempstead line?
No the Rockaway & Long Beach Branches go there, after a stop at Jamaica.
Mr t__:^)
Most Hempstead trains DO terminate at Bklyn.
Opps ... sorry about that. So that makes 3 lines from the south shore that go their. Some also go to Penn Stn rush hours only.
Mr t__:^)
[Isn't the Atlantic Ave LIRR line in the RPA's MetroLink plan to be converted to a subway line and connected into the system?]
Uh, the RPA has had LOTS of ideas in the past and this one is one of those 'far-out' concepts, and it's a dumb one. Turning the LIRR Atlantic Avenue Branch into a subway line is redundant beyond all reasoning. Why? It's elementary: The Fulton Street Line (A/C) runs parallel with the LIRR up to the East New York area. They are no more than two blocks away from each other between at any point from Flatbush Avenue on eastward. If an A/C rider were to transfer at Broadway/East New York to the J/Z trains for Jamacia, then the customer would continue to parallel the LIRR Atlantic Avenue Branch all the way to Jamaica Center. So, as you can see the conversion of the LIRR Atlantic Avenue Branch (aka Flatbush Avenue Line) into rapid transit use doesn't make a whole lotta sense.
Are IRT cars useable on this line, i.e. is the third rail compatible?
The power for LIRR is 750 volts and the subway system is 600. So things would not work out power-wise for the IRT cars (burnt-out motors would be the answer).
Who the hell uses the LIRR Atlantic Ave line anyway?
Lots of folks. Actually anybody headed for Wall Street would use the Atlantic Avenue Line because it is alot closer to lower Manhattan than 34th Street on the westside. A passenger only has to jump on the IRT (across the platform for a 2/3/4/5) and ride for about five mintues and they're at Wall Street.
BMTman
Well, despite it being redundant to the Fulton Street line, I think the RPA's ideas are kinda nifty, with a hybrid car using both systems and all. ALso, the plan calls for the Atlantic Ave line to be the one-seat ride to JFK, which makes sense, because when I lived in downtown Brooklyn, the car service always took me down Atlantic to get to JFK. The plan envisions a new tunnel for the converted LIRR tunnel to the financial district which would connect to the Atlantic Ave Line.
The A/C lines could have had a parallel El if they hadn't knocked it down as well. I like the idea of redundant lines (Have you ever rode the A/C at rush hour? -- it's got some of the rudest people on earth on it)
I use the Atlantic Avenue line daily from Cedarhurst, on the Rockaway line. You are 100% correct about Flatbush Avenue being much closer to Wall Street than Penn Station. Its a one seat right from Cedarhurst to Flatbush Avenue, which is great. I do see the LIRR eventually closing the East NY and Nostrand Avenue stations, b/c of safety concerns and low usage.
I do see the LIRR eventually closing the East NY and Nostrand Avenue stations, b/c of safety concerns and low usage.
ENY may be a different story, but Nostrand Avenue gets heavy reverse-commuter usage. It probably would be even heavier if the LIRR actually offered semi-decent reverse-commuter service.
Maybe. But East NY looks like a dark and dangerous station. I'm not sure I've ever seen anyone get on or off there.
I guess you've never been there during rush hour. Alot of people use that station. I work near one of the "J" stations along Bway and although I usually drive to work since I work 4x12's, when I do occasionally work a day tour I take the train and use ENY. Alot of people get off there with me and walk to Bway Junction. Its alot faster than taking the "J" from Jamaica Station-Sutphin. And in the afternoon alot of people wait for the E/B trains at ENY. Although I don't know for sure, I'd bet more people use Nostrand & ENY than Kew Gardens & Forest Hills on the NY line.
You can't really compare ENY to Kew Gardens or Forest Hills. The latter two are local stops while ENY is an "express" stop in the sense that all Flatbush Ave trains, eastbound and wetbound, stop there. So you'd expect more people to use ENY than either of the two local stops. I have been on the Flatbush Ave line during both the morning and evening rush, and have never seen more than one or two people get on and off.
Hey, Sarge. Quick question: when you get off at ENY station on the morning rush, do you leap over the low-wall along the roadway, or do you use the underpass? Reason I'm asking is that if you did the former I might have seen you a couple years back. I used to commute from Lynbrook to Flatbush Avenue and recall a gent existing at ENY and semi-leap over the low-wall along the Atlantic Avenue service road.
BMTman
Doug, when I know I'm gonna get off at ENY I deliberately stay in the last car of the train. There is an opening from the platform to Atlantic Av by the last car.
Doug, when I know I'm gonna get off at ENY I deliberately stay in the last car of the train. There is an opening from the platform to Atlantic Av by the last car. By the way, we DID meet once, at the SubTalk party at HeyPaul's house. Remember, I was with my 4 yr old son who hogged Paul's motorman's cab.
I remember, but you DROVE in :-(
Too bad you had to leave before our Wonder Wheel & bumper car ride, thanks Mark.
Mr t__:^)
Me and 4yr old Arthur were getting up early the next morning to go to Saratoga Springs, but we did enjoy a nice walk along the water at Sheepshead Bay.
A LIRR/TA connection would save most riders if not all time and alot of headaches. The overcroweding on the FULTON/8TH AVE LINE during the rush hours is enough to make you want to avoid it.THE EAST NEW YORK/BROADWAY JUNCTION complex is almost as crowded as GRAND CENTRAL... Direct service from points east to and through downtown BROOKLYN to LOWER MANHATTAN has always been a ''must do sometime,but not right now''point on the MTA lists of ''thing to do''.A JAMAICA AVE SUBWAY from the ENY STATION of the A/C LINES to the CYPRESS HILLS STATION of the J/Z LINES would have solved this problem a long time ago.
[I do see the LIRR eventually closing the East NY and Nostrand Avenue stations, b/c of safety concerns and low usage.]
I disagree. Since I live in Canarsie section of Brooklyn, when I have to go out east I occasionally use the East New York station. Granted, it can be desolate at times and has had a reputation for crime -- but much like the surrounding East NY area -- the crime has gone down quite a bit and I now have no problems waiting there during daylight hours for a train. As a sign that things have gotten better at ENY is the fact that there is no longer a 24-hour police presence at the station as was the norm just a few years ago.
Another thing to keep in mind: next time you're riding the line in the a.m. take note of the amount of folks waiting on the OUTBOUND platforms at East New York and Nostrand Avenue. You will see a good amount of black women who are waiting for trains to take them to their baby-sitting/nanny and/or maid jobs on Long Island. So, those stations are necessary stops even though on 'off-peak' hours and weekends they could be turned into 'skip-stop' stations.
BMTman
If there is steady ridership then perhaps those stations should be next on the rehabilitation list after the Atalantic Av complex, and Jamaica Station. A rehab would help the station and the surrounding neighborhood.
[If there is steady ridership then perhaps those stations should be next on the rehabilitation list after the Atalantic Av complex, and Jamaica Station. A rehab would help the station and the surrounding
neighborhood.]
Sounds reasonable to me, particularly in light of the other (subway) work going on in that area (East New York/Broadway Junction).
BTW, I used that station, off-hours to get home after a Field Trip and had the benifit of some fellow SubTalkers who waited with me for my train ... there were other folks waiting too.
Mr t__:^)
Don't forget the resurgence of Metrotech Center.
Who the hell uses the LIRR Atlantic Ave line anyway?
Lots of folks. Actually anybody headed for Wall Street would use the Atlantic Avenue Line because it is alot closer to lower Manhattan than 34th Street on the westside.
In addition, the run from Jamaica to Flatbush Ave. is a few minutes shorter than the run from Jamaica to Penn Station, and is much less prone to delays.
And seats are plentiful.
As long as don't have to "Change in Jamaica" that's a plus.
I've used it a number of times, it's a good alternate in bad weather.
e.g. in a snow storm you may not be able to get on a train at Penn Station, but you can get on that same train at Jamaica ... so how do you get to Jamaica ???? Atlantic Ave !!!
Personally I can also walk home from a stop on the Long Beach line, so another reason for me to use it.
Mr t__:^)
If it did, it doesn't any more. The roadway where it would have been has recently been filled with concrete and brought up to platform level.
Yes, it not only existed, but is very much still there.
However, it is currently being used as some kind of storage facility for various MTA work crews (or contractors).
Before the above development, you could clearly see the ROW turnout from the IRT tracks to the LIRR. The connection back in the 20's was made with LIRR track #6 (the current location of track #1 as LIRR track numbering was reversed some years ago).
BMTman
I remember, in 1967, a switch that could've easily rerouted a # 2 or 3 onto the LIRR. This was at the north end of the northbound Seventh Avenue local. Today there is no more trackage in that area.
Right, but the ROW is still there.
The LIRR ticket booth and information counter fill the space where the connection would have been.
BMTman
Sounds like something to add to my list of things to check out next time I'm in the city. I caught a glimpse of where the connection was a year or two ago from a 4 train.
Steve...Do you recall the "pocket" that existed on the wall of the eastbound track as you entered the Atlantic Ave. station? They removed same several years ago. Could that have been a plan to underjump the station right onto the LIRR?
Carl M.
Doug, just because a connection existed between the LIRR and the IRT at Atlantic Avenue doesn't mean August Belmont used it for the Mineola. I would think if he did use it it would have been well documented and somebody would have published it. I'm sure pictures would have been taken. The fact that nobody knows for sure means he probably didn't use it.
As an aside, as long as we're talking about the way owners of Belmont Pk got to the track in the 70's & 80's when Ogden Mills Phipps was the chairman & majority shareholder of the NYRA (which owns Belmont PK) he arrived and left on his personal helicopter on the backstretch. Certainly not as romantic as on the Mineola.
Its jury slection time in the trial of the boyfriend who pushed his girlfriend's car in front of a NS freight train in Sinking Spring PA on the NS Harrisburg Line. The local DA is seeking the death penalty.
I say, if he really did kill someone intentionally, he should get what he deserves.
He killed not only his ex-girlfriend, but also the three passengers in her car.
yesterday was a bad day for NJT. First the 907 from NY Penn did not leave until after the 937 was due to leave. They did not even open the doors until after 930. The 937 was 20 minutes lates. Then last night frozen swittches held us hostage near PATH's HCMF for over 60 minutes. AT least that train crew knew how to make annoucements. I was even late for work thanks to NJT- by **one** minute.
yesterday was a bad day for NJT. First the 907 from NY Penn did not leave until after the 937 was due to leave. They did not even open the doors until after 930. The 937 was 20 minutes lates. Then last night frozen switches held us hostage near PATH's HCMF for over 60 minutes. AT least that train crew knew how to make annoucements. I was even late for work thanks to NJT- by **one** minute.
Don't they set the switches ablaze during cold weather? LIRR does, and I have seen NJT do so around Hoboken.
It depends. In frequently cold places point heaters are installed. There are 2 main types, air blowers and direct burners. Conrail prefered the direct burners and most switches have propane jets in a trough outside of each rail. I prefer this model because you can't see it. Most other RR's use hot air blowers with little trackside burner and air ducts around the rails. In places w/o much cold switches can be set on fire w/ heavy oil etc. however CR had installed heaters at CP-Hatch in south jersey so I guess we count as cold.
They do but this switch heater must be a different type or failed.
HCMF?
Harrison Car Maintenance Facility.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
BTW I remember how NJT deals w/ snow on the AC line. Because its a relitivly warm line point heaters are not worth it. Instead they have about 6 of these giant kerosene lamp things that are set under the points and lit. They hold like 3 gallons of kero and probably have to be re-filled every day or so.
I was gonna say, but didn't that in many railroad situations up to modern times, they'd run a car down the line and light "smudge pots" under the points ... smudge pots were good for about 24 hours or so and since railroads actually *HAD* MOW departments, it'd just be a traincrew sent to drop them and light them. B&O and others did this routinely as did PRR and NYC when it went below freezing.
Smudgepots were these things that were shaped like bowling balls where you could light a flame on them. They were often used by highway departments a long time ago to warn of work zones, missing roads and other things. Still used in orange groves and places where cold isn't expected to keep the air near or above freezing. But railroads would routinely use them as point heaters.
The modern ones are shaped like shoe boxes.
Damn! Where's the fun in that? At least the round smudgepots could roll away.
WEll well well whats up with these F trains with the words KA KA KA KA KA KA KA writtten all over them in big black letters all ovr two cars, saw them tuesday morning, not to mention a running tag on an AM M train at 9th street, and what is really up with this "vandalism" thing lately coming back on the Wheels Of STeel. What, the Work Bums aint interested in preservation of rolling stock? and what about the proposition of big 'ol MTA saying "NO MARKED CARS WILL RUN" can someone explain and be nice at the same time?
Sometimes a few squeak by without getting cleaned. I bet tomorrow you won't find a spot on those cars. Taking the train out to clean may have left an empty headway all day, which is much worse than a marked car or two. I've seen this happen several times, though more on the Queens IND since trains are often stored on the express tracks evenings and weekends (way easy acess). Then again, the Queens IND is my home line, obviously it would appear to me to happen more here than anywhere else.
The actual policy states that cars with graffiti should be removed from service ASAP but must be cleaned within 24 hours. Some people interpret this to mean that the train must immediately be removed from service. This is not necessarily the case. I got the feeling that the originator of this thread might have also been responsible for the graffiti. I hope I am wrong.
Dude, You probably are right.
what gives you that idea? why woudl a vandal post on SubTalk?
The way you posed the question is a pretty good indicator that you might have vandalized the train in question. The over-estimation of your work, thinking the train was 'ruined' shows a definite over-inflated self image. I also think that since you couldn't see the direct reactions of those inconvenienced by your handiwork, you post here to get another sort of reaction. If you are the criminal that did the vandalism that you reported, you are hardly unique or original. We've had other vandals here before you who also got off by boasting here. They didn't last long and I suspect you'll be just another flash in the pan. That is unless the NYPD transit bureau, vandal squad doesn't track you down first. Believe me, seven, you are just a minor pest to the TA.
well well well , sorry train dude but i was not responsible for this act,even if i was i wouldnt blab it around as if, u see Tom and Jerry maybe online so, although i am a fan i dont participate in this , reguardless, i know how much you would love ot boast me about how inconvenient a writer might be, im sorry to disappoint you , well in this case, although Tom and Jerr do a fine job at the "vandal Squad" aparently they're getting old. As for my self , why do you presume i am a vandla, boy you people are quick, take it easy and as for Transit Police, good job responding to 10-33 assissting MTS and MSTF on new years eve
Let's drop this, Seven. I don't really understand your rantings and I'm too old to learn a new language. Whether you are a vandal doesn't interest me. Eventually you'll either be arrested, be killed by a train or 3rd rail or you'll get old enough to understand how you wasted your life committing stupid acts.
Any current or prospective members of DVARP's board here? I noticed that there are only 10 candidates for 9 spots, but they all seem qualified from their statements. How do I pick the one to leave off? The only name I recognized both there and in this forum is Isaac Shomer, but then most handles here aren't real names. Thanks for any input.
I rode R142A car 7271 this evening and I noticed that the mylar covering on the side door windows does not cover the entire window.
There is about a 1/4" gap on the top and bottom and about a 1/8" on each of the sides. This will lead to someone attempting to (and maybe suceeding) in peeling a portion of the sheert off and then scratching the window. Failing that they might start creating a scratchiti border around the sheet. Either way it defaets the TA's idea (which is good) of using mylar to discourage the vandalism.
It is almost like someone got lazy and came up with the idea of rather than remove a scratched mylar covered window and putting a new one its place they just rip off the sheet and put a new one on it.
Time will tell.
P.S. - Tonight I saw 2 other sets of R142A in service on the 6 making for at least 3 sets running.
Have you tried to peel it off? I cut my finger while seeing if it was possible. You'd need the special tool.
They are done that way to avoid the hassle of having to remove the entire window to change the sheet. The point of it is not just to reduce cost but also to save time. The buses are done this way too (though I have seen them peeled off from time to time, probably done by a knife).
On the same topic, today I was on R-62As 2166-2170 and all windows are covered with the removable layer (including the tiny cab door window ones and the ones inside the cabs, at least the transverse ones).
A whip is probably the most effective way to eradicate scratchiti!
Flog 'em! :-0
You would have to catch them first.
they tried that here on the L.A. M.T.A. buses here! the windows are now scratched up to the point of becoming grey !!
they tried that here on the L.A. M.T.A. buses here! the windows are now scratched up to the point of becoming grey !!
they tried that here on the L.A. M.T.A. buses here! the windows are now scratched up to the point of becoming grey !!..
Just heard on the news that there was a terrible accident at a grade crossing near Huntington station. At around 7pm a LIRR train with commuters hit a car with four teenage girls in it. Witnesses say the car tried to beat the train and went around the down gates.
Thanks to the foolishness of these idiots, service in both directions is suspended between Hicksville and Huntington.
The car looked pretty messed up, and of course the news makes the victims, most of whom have passed away. The real victims are the engineer, who will have to live with the image that his train killed somebody, and commuters who once again get incovenienced, by stupid idiots who cross tracks when gates are down.
I think that police or some agency should patrol grade crossings. Anybody who tries to beat a train by crossing against the gates should have their car seized. People who risk their lives and the lives of others by their driving should not be driving.
http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/railsandtrains
That makes two tonight. An NJT Coast Line train from Hoboken to Bay Head hit the rear of a car that was stopped in traffic in Red Bank. It was just a glancing blow - six more inches and there wouldn't have been any contact, no injuries as far as I know.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Didn't I read this exact same post about a month ago?
Here are the stories in the Times and the Daily News. The driver drove around several cars that were waiting at the crossing.
They should set up cameras like they have in various locations around NYC. If you go through a red light, the camera takes your picture, and you get sent a ticket.
The same could apply to railroad crossings. The cost to set these cameras up will be probably be less than the millions the families of the victims sue for each time this happens.
Sounds like a good idea!
Thanks. I got the idea when someone mentioned that they should put cops on patrol near the grade crossings. Since that sounded like a good idea, but not one that may translate well for the municipalities, I figured the next best thing would be to do what NYC has done for the past 7 or 8 years to deal with those who run the red light.
The program has been a success so far. Unfortunately, they have not installed anymore traffic cameras than the 10 or 15 that have been around the city. I'm not sure why. The cameras are in fact costly to install and maintain. One near my home has about 5 dents on it which indicate that someone tried to shoot the camera. By the size of those dents, I would say it was a really POWERFUL gun. But so far as I have heard, the cameras are helping to bring money into the city.
Full barriers - covering all lanes on both sides of the tracks - would be more effective. They'll keep people from making the mistake in the first place.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
>>>Full barriers - covering all lanes on both sides of the tracks - would be more effective. <<<
As I understand it, they cannot do that because os the risk of vehicles becoming trapped when the gates are down
Peace,
ANDEE
Modern barriers are designed to break away on impact when struck from trackside. Your car will get a small dent or two but that's a lot better than a big dent from a locomotive. I watched a trapped car break through one about ten years ago (it was a staged situation for an Operation Lifesaver filming, not a real emergency) - the vehicle, an older Ford Fairmont, sustained relatively minor damage, while the gate snapped off near the pole and landed on the pavement.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
It's incredible that someone would dart around the gates while the car that was involved in the collision was being hoisted onto the flatbed! Perhaps the cars should be left by crossings. I've seen it done a few times to discourage drunk driving, and once to encourage seat belt use (a mangled postal Jeep with a banner proudly stating "the driver walked away!").
C'mon guys. Am I the only person on SubTalk with compassion and feelings. Stop calling these people idiots. This is a public board. Their friends and families might be on the board now. People make mistakes. And I'm very surprised at you John as I remember you had a death in the family last summer. You should be the most compassionate. And if you have to call the driver an idiot please keep it singular, not plural. Only one person drove through the gates. The two passengers did not. For all you know they might have been yelling "don't do it". If a bus went through the gates would you call all the passengers idiots? The real victims are the girls!!! The engineer will continue living life and will hopefully get over it. The passengers who were inconvenienced will go on living, as LIRR riders they will probably be inconvenienced more times in the future.
Maybe my being a cop for 19 years has given me more compassion as I've been with family members of people killed by accidents and crimes many times.
My deepest condolences go out to the 2 girls killed and my prayers for a speedy recovery for the surviving girl.
For all you know the passengers were the ones encouraged the driver to beat the train because they had to get to mall before it closed or something. At the very least they weren't paying attention to the driver enough to see what's going on and yell "No you idiot! The train is comming!".
To repeat what Jeffrey, for all you know, the passengers may have known full well what the driver was doing and were screaming at her not to! It's true that the engineer will have to suffer with the knowledge that his train killed an anonymous person, even though there was nothing he could do about it. Let's not forget that these girls had family and friends, to whom they were not anonymous bodies crossing in front of a train, who loved them and will miss them. As for the passengers, I doubt that another delay on the LIRR will have a profound, lifelong effect on them.
In case anyone forgot, we live in America. And there's this little thing Americans believe in called INNOCENT UNTIL PROVEN GUILTY. There's no excuse for the driver of the car going around the crossing gates. She was a f***ing idiot and as much as I feel sorry for her family, she could've prevented it had she been more patient. However the other two girls we will never know. Sure, there is a chance that they egged her on, but there's also a chance that they told her to stop or didn't say anything because they were scared. Now the American way of looking at it is to assume that the two passengers were INNOCENT and had no part in it. I feel very sorry for the families of the two girls and I don't think you should go around bashing them. The driver was stupid but that doesn't mean the passengers were.
Abe
Keep in mind that by sitting back and not doing anything they would become part of the problem.
And exactly how much control do you have over a car from the backseat? My guess is that they weren't driving the driver's ed special either, so even the front passenger could at best grab the steering wheel. Only the driver can use or not use the pedals. They couldn't have done anything other than scream "NOoooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo"
Which they probably didn't do. My dad's getting goofier these days and I have to be really alert to prevent him from doing stupid things while driving. Also when driving w/ my friends I am always yelling things like "red light" and "car!"
>>>Also when driving w/ my friends I am always yelling things like "red light" and "car!"<<<
Thanks for letting us know NEVER to drive a car that you are a passenger in.
Peace,
ANDEE
So I should let my reckless teenage driver friends run red lights and cut off cars? Not while I'm a passenger!
Let's all remember something: Regardless of what the passengers are doing, the driver is legally responsible for operating the vehicle. This means that a) it is incumbent on the driver to drive in a safe manner; b) it is the driver's responsibility to appropriately deal with passengers. If passengers scream, distract, party, the driver needs to tell them to stop, or to pull over and refuse to operate the vehicle if the passengers are creating a hazard.
A 20 year old woman with a record of previous violations, including involvement in death of another person (assuming that these facts, posted on this site, were reported accurately), probably does not have the maturity to exercise this responsibility (where another 20 year old might). It sounds like her suspension was lifted too soon. She'll never make another mistake.
There's no way to prove either scenario.
This latest grade-crossing accident certainly is tragic. Equally tragic is that no matter how many times this kind of thing happens, it keeps right on happening. While grade crossings present an inherently dangerous situation, it becomes dangerous only when common sense is abandoned.
We've all seen impatient motorists and pedestrians cross the tracks with the gates down either right before or after a train passes. In this latest incident, the doomed car drove past other, lawfully stopped vehicles. Some witnesses claimed that because an eastbound train had just passed, it was ASSuMEd the gates were just slow in raising. Hasn't it occurred to anyone that there are two tracks, and frequent contra-peak flow service in that area?
An increasingly common occurrence takes place when commuters exit an outbound LIRR train at a home station with a crossing at the front: Instead of waiting for the train to depart and gates to go up, they'll walk down the steps or ramp at the front of the platform and right around the lowered gates and across the tracks in the path of the train. Now the engineer has to hold the train until everyone finish crossing the tracks! I've seen this happen at Cedarhust, Oceanside, Stewart Manor, Nassau Boulevard, Northport, Kings Park, East Williston and other locations- but especially at New Hyde Park, where the gates tend to stay down for long periods of time during rush hours due to heavy train traffic. People just can't wait to get home, can they?
Last time I drove in the area, I was forced to wait at the South 12th Street crossing, which is at the west end of NHP, for about five minutes while about a total of six trains passed in either direction. Every time a train passed, but without the gates going up, the motorist behind me honked furiously. The gates finally did go up, but only for about twenty seconds, which wasn't enough time to proceed without several cars turning left off 2nd Avenue (which parellels the ROW) across the tracks in front of me. When the gates went down again, the impatient driver climbed out of his Jimmy and threatened to pour the contents of his Starbucks coffee on me. I was saved by his cell phone ringing.
The combination of heavy rail traffic and multiple crossings, such as on the main line west of Hicksville, certainly is incentive to grade separate the line. It's said that some people were actually happy about the infamous 1982 collision at Herricks Road that killed nine teenagers because the bad publicity would lead to elimination of the crossing. Sure enough, it was- sixteen years later. You still gotta be pretty twisted to revel in someone's death, even if it was a result of stupidity.
Last night's victims probably figured they were immortal, and it's not 'cool' to obey traffic rules, like all teenagers. Unless all grade crossing are eliminated- highly unlikely- this type of tragedy will keep right on happening. It is a shame that lives are lost, countless commuters are delayed and train crew traumatized because of sheer lack of common sense.
Of course, some people think the world was created just for them, and everyone else is an obstacle to their existence, like someone recently overheard who must've been delayed by the suicide jumper on the Flushing line: "If the jerk wanted to kill himself, why didn't he just take sleeping pills?"
[like someone recently overheard who must've been delayed by the suicide jumper on the Flushing line: "If the jerk wanted to kill himself, why didn't he just take sleeping pills?"]
The best thing I ever overheard a bystander say after a tragedy was about 18 years ago as a rookie cop I was at the corner of Livonia Av & Rockaway Av on the street under the station. A guy committed suicide by jumping in front of a train. The train sliced him in two at the waist. His upper body from the belt up was lying on Livonia with his legs still under the train on the tracks. I still remember a young bystander saying "Look at the chains that guy is wearing, too bad there's so many cops here"!!!
About 25 years ago I was travelling S/B on New Highway going from Rt 109 to Sunrise Hway. Where that one track spur going from Hicksville to Babylon crosses New Highway I noticed the gates were stuck in the down position. I waited there about 15 minutes watching car after car go around the gates. Nobody made a u-turn however all I could picture in my mind was a speeding diesel so I turned around, went back to 109 and took Wellwood.
In the long run I think common sense does prevail. There really isn't too many grade crossing accidents. We see 'em more because as railfans they stand out to us. However there are alot more car accidents caused by stupidity.
While I don't condone any illegal crossings of gates I could understand pedestrians doing it but I really don't understand how any driver can do it. At least pedestrians can look both ways before crossing but a driver cannot look down the tracks unless he is directly on it. I have to admit I've been guilty myself occasionally at the Main Street crossing in Mineola. (That's the station I use) But I always made sure there were no trains coming in any of the 3 directions (including from Oyster Bay)
By the way, while typing this I just heard on channel 7 news that the female driver, who just turned 20, was involved in an accident a few months ago where an elderly woman was killed and just had her license reinstated as it had 2 suspensions. She also had 2 red signal violations.
(By the way, while typing this I just heard on channel 7 news that the female driver, who just turned 20, was involved in an accident a few months ago where an elderly woman was killed and just had her license reinstated as it had 2 suspensions. She also had 2 red signal violations.)
Guilty as charged, but I guess you have to presume the others are innocent until proven guilty.
The bottom line is, some drivers can't conceive of the fact that trains have the right of way, because they were there first. Shouldn't the train have to stop at every grade crossing and wait until no cars want to cross? Perhaps it should be put in a way drivers can understand. Luxury SUVs have the right of way over economy cars because they are bigger, and can heedlessly run over the economy cars killing their occupants if they do not stay out of the way. The same holds for a train and a motor vehicle.
That's great! While we're at it, using the same logic, if a tractor-trailer crushes a Volkswagen beetle on the LIE, the truck should have the right to keep going so the payload can reach its destination on time. Since the beetle's occupants would be roadkill anyway, why should the rest of us have to wait for our groceries, appliances or whatever the truck was carrying?
Shouldn't the train have to stop at every grade crossing and wait until no cars want to cross?
The Supreme Court said that trains always have the right of way.
"The Supreme Court said that trains always have the right of way."
I guess *sometimes* the supreme court can make snese.
"An increasingly common occurrence takes place when commuters exit an outbound LIRR train at a home station with a crossing at the front: Instead of waiting for the train to depart and gates to go up, they'll walk down the steps or ramp at the front of the platform and right around the lowered gates and across the tracks in the path of the train. Now the engineer has to hold the train until everyone finish crossing the tracks!"
Worse yet, is when there is a crossing at the rear of the train. In that case, commuters go around the back of the train but can't see a train coming in the opposite direction. During the rush hour, many of the westbound trains are deadheading back to NYC and are operating at speed. At Oceanside, where the platform is so short that the rear of an 8-car train is still in the street, a number of deaths, injuries and near-misses led to the installation of sirens (to indicate trains coming on both tracks), extended gates and a maze of fencing. Still, I've seen people occasionally try and duck under the gates.
CG
Also one must remember that during rush hour on the main line many trains wrong rail.
What really gets me about these grade crossing crashes on the LIRR is that we're not dealing with slow lumbering freights that can take a long time to clear the crossings. At least then it might be easier to understand why drivers and pedestrians are willing to take risks. But life is not so short that people can't wait the few seconds it takes for an electric train to zoom through.
You have said it all very well. Even if a frieght roared thru like they do at most places it is a minute or two. Laurel Montana where I lived a few years was a real pain. They'd dribble thru at 10 MPH and then the train would stop to hand line a switch. With some trains 7000 feet long you could have a 10 minute delay. Maybe it was OK 50 years ago with shorter trains and fewer vehicles. Today Laurel is Suburbia USA..in more ways than too many vehicles.
I pity the innocent in such cases just as I do in DUI deaths..usually the driver lives [why fate]. Even I am guilty as gross inattention sometimes, but running around gates proves intention and is inexcusable. As you say..these MU's only take a few seconds to pass.BTW they do run around gates in Montana too.
There may be too many crossings for densely settled Long Island, but almost all the time it's passenger trains passing through, which by and large doesn't keep the gates down long- except when two trains are passing in opposite directions, or where the line is very busy, like west of Hicksville.
In most of the rest of America, freight trains still dominate, and some of them can have dozens of cars and keep the gates down for much longer than on the Island. Downtown Reno, NV, population 100K+, has a railroad running right smack through downtown, crossing the main drag at grade- at least it did in 1974 when we were there. Some incredible traffic jams ensued whenever a freight went through.
In a lot of rural areas in Colorado, Utah, South Dakota et al, there are no gates, or even lights- just plain crossbucks. Of course, it is pretty hard not to hear those whistles.
Suburban Chicago has many more rail lines (and crossings) than our 'burbs, and some carry both METRA commuter and freight lines. (Funny aside: I often speak to a vendor in Buffalo Grove, IL, and many times our conversations are interrupted by loud diesel whistles!) Are motorists there any more accustomed to- and more patient at crossings than here? There was one well-publicized school bus accident with multiple fatalities some years ago.
I went to college in a small upstate town outside of Rochester, and there were several freight lines nearby, plus one Conrail trunk line that carried freight and Amtrak east out of Buffalo. Couple of times a year, a Downstater would die at the hands of a freight after driving around the gates. Every time it was the same excuse: "(S)he grew up on the Island, was used to the LIRR going through fast and hated waiting for those long, slow freights."
Even in nearby Westfield and Edison, NJ, there's a freight railroad cutting through and crossing many roads at grade- who'd a-thunk it? New Jersey has quite a few freight-only ROWs in heavily suburban areas. Either the motorists there are used to this, or fatal crossing accidents don't get the heavy play in the local media that those on the Island get.
In summary, LIRR crossings are annoying and inconvenient- but it's a lot more so elsewhere.
Part of the answer is to improve ROW and increase train speeds. The Florida East Coast railway has a high-speed freight line where trains routinely run 79 mph (FRA-allowed max. speed). Straight, well-maintained track and crossing gates helps. If I recall correctly, Arizona has some really first-class track where trains could (safely)go even faster, if FRA rules were changed to allow it.
The 79 mph FRA speed limit is there to encourage RR's to adopt the use of ATS or ATC divices. Even with a simple intermittant ATS the speed would be raised to anything the track could handle.
Of cource most RR lines aren't as flat and straight as the FEC main. However on the NS Pittsburg Line timetable speeds can reach 60-70 intermodals and NS (or CSX) has just been testing intermodal trains at 70-80 on other parts of their system.
Anyway don't think the FRA is being a jerk. The railroads were given 20-15 years of notice to install ATS and most chose not to because safety is too expensive. W/o ATS rules we'd be just like the UK and we know their safety record.
Thanks for the information.
I do not imply anything derogatory about FRA (my posts elsewhere are supportive of FRA).
Because of FRA, there are fewer dead bodies in US train crashes than after European train crashes. Amtrak's Acela may be heavier (and initially buggier) than TGV or ICE in Europe, but it is safer for passengers.
FYI the 80 mph speed limit was been in effect since 1948.
I was in NJ today, and we had to wait at an RR crossing at Anderson street while on the 175. An NJ transit train pulls in, a diesel (there's only one track). It pulls in fast, and departs fast, unlike the LIRR diesels.
Drivers in NJ don't cut in front of buses like they do here on LI, in general I think people have more common sense over there. Aint that way with rude Lawng island people.
Also NJT bus drivers seem to be quite patient with riders, and don't stop or take off abruptly.
There are alot of crossings in NJ, but perhaps since it is a less high strung place to be, compared to Long Island, accidents happen more rarely.
So how good are NJT trains, from a railfan perspective?
I like most of their rail equipment, standard push-pull stuff. But, that Comet IV puke pink interior has got to go!
Peace,
ANDEE
Having been an engineer in Montana and often disturbed by things that could have happened [luckily fate spared me just as I was spared suicides in my years as a motorman but had some near-misses in both areas] and as an irritated motorist in Montana I've wished all toooften that those cursed crossings could be eliminated in populated areas, lets say even over 20 thou. pop. But as another poster says the safety is compromised for price.
BTW with modern well sealed climate controlled autos and often the sound system played [by some] at a high volume I think often times even train horns aren't heard. But that's another story. Vigilance and prudence by the motorist is needed first. The engineer does his/her best most of the time, if not all the time.
In most respects public rail/road crossings are a pain.
I still remember my drivers ed teacher at East Meadow High School, Mr Glaser, in 1971 (30 yrs ago) telling us to treat railroad crossings no different than any other intersections. There were alot more crossings in those days as the Babylon line was still at street level in Nassau with RR crossings all along its length. Those crossings were even more dangerous as each one had a major intersection with Sunrise Highway just feet south of them.
Since I learned how to drive in Manhattan, I never learned to drive across railroad crossings.
It's easier than most intersections in Manhattan anyway.
Actually he said it in the classroom. We never went across any crossings in driver's ed either.
>>>There were alot more crossings in those days as the Babylon line was still at street level in Nassau with RR crossings all along its length. <<<
I remember those days all too well. At the time I had a job that entailed a lot of driving on the South Shore, Baldwin to Bayshore, even though I've never lived on LI I drove out there so much I knew it as well as any native. Horrendus accidents at those crossings were a commom occurence. I think there was at least "a van full of teenagers was killed" in the papers monthly. Or so it seemed.
Peace,
ANDEE
Your point about "sealed autos" is well taken. With your windows rolled up and the stereo blasting, you can't hear anything. Sirens from police cars, ambulances, fire trucks - all silent to the driver of that car. That leads to a lot of collisions between autos and emergency vehicles (and autos vs. trains, I guess, at those crossings with no lights and no gates).
Again, though, we should remember it is the driver's responsibility to operate the motor vehicle safely. In most states, I believe, a driver operating the vehicle in any condition where he/she can't hear anything on the road would be subject to a citation.
You said you rode on Denver's light rail line when you were out here. Did you go all the way to the southern end of the line at Mineral Ave.? If so, you may have noticed that the line runs along Santa Fe Drive (US 85) from Broadway to Mineral. There used to be a ton of grade crossings all along that rail corridor; they've all been eliminated. With all the coal trains using those freight tracks, traffic snarls were getting worse. I remember when they started eliminating those grade crossings; people were breathing a sigh of relief.
IIRC the RR crossing where the accident occured is the second crossing west of the Huntington Station and therefore the trains can get up to a good rate of speed before they pass the gates.
I spoke to someone today who says that sometimes the gates stay down for a long time before a train passes. This could be due to the movement and switching of trains before Huntington and E/B trains waiting for clearance to proceed. If this is true you can understand a person's impatience and frustration. Doesn't excuse the stupidity in driving around downed gates. The idea of a camera giving out tickets is a great idea. Similar to the cameras at certain NYC intersections (Utica/Eastern Parkway) & (Queens Blvd/Ascan Ave to name 2)
They also have cameras at Northern Blvd in Douglaston at one of the lights. Needless to say, buses rarely blow through that light.
Last night's victims probably figured they were immortal, and it's not 'cool' to obey traffic rules, like all teenagers.
Are all women hysterical? Are all blacks criminals?
Pok:
Hmmm - that one is a bit blatent.
-cordially,
turnstiles
Just as blatant as the All teenagers comment.
Pork:
The all teenagers comment was actually the one I was talking about. I did not expect to see such an obvious comment such as that.
-cordially,
turnstiles
OK, you're right, that WAS a rank generalization, about 'all' teenagers being too cool to obey rules, and I apologize for that.
The proper term to use would have been MANY teenagers. At the risk of sounding more inflammatory, many years' experience, and the responsibility of raising offspring, has taught me that **most** PEOPLE, irregardless of age, don't seem to want to be bothered following rules of common safety or courtesy such as:
-Signalling to change lanes;
-Making room in your lane for someone who is signalling as such;
-Stopping for pedestrians even if they have the light;
-Stopping for school buses- doing that in Queens can get you cursed and threatened bodily harm;
-Waiting ones' turn on lines for buses, token booths, supermarkets, fast food etc.;
-Taking up one space in a parking lot;
-Being in front of ones building when ones ride comes, not twenty minutes (of honking) later;
-Cutting ones conversation short when it's obvious other people are waiting for the pay phone instead of making additional calls;
-Not making calls on ones cell phone in movies, restaurants, etc. when it becomes apparent the conversation is not of an emergency nature;
-Moving ones bags off the next seat when many people are standing;
-Making sure you have the proper change or a legitimate Metrocard BEFORE you get on the bus;
I could go on, but probably shouldn't.
I understand NYStatehas given LIRR a $50 million grant to design and start work on grade separations (under or overpasses) near New Hyde Park. Does anyone have any idea of the schedule for this work?
The LIRR is opting to eliminate the grade crossings in Mineola east to roslyn road first.
Well said!
After what happened to my Mom I have less compassion for people who choose to risk their own life. The driver chose to take the chance and go against the gates, my Mom had no chance, Cancer strikes randomly, and there's is little that can be done to avoid it.
Well put, Jeff
Peace,
ANDEE
sorry about not closing out the bold html. Here is a correction!!
C'mon guys. Am I the only person on SubTalk with compassion and feelings. Stop calling these people idiots. This is a public board. Their friends and families might be on the board now. People make mistakes. And I'm very surprised at you John as I remember you had a death in the family last summer. You should be the most compassionate. And if you have to call the driver an idiot please keep it singular, not plural. Only one person drove through the gates. The two passengers did not. For all you know they might have been yelling "don't do it". If a bus went through the gates would you call all the passengers idiots? The real victims are the girls!!! The engineer will continue living life and will hopefully get over it. The passengers who were inconvenienced will go on living, as LIRR riders they will probably be inconvenienced more times in the future.
Maybe my being a cop for 19 years has given me more compassion as I've been with family members of people killed by accidents and crimes many times.
My deepest condolences go out to the 2 girls killed and my prayers for a speedy recovery for the surviving girl.
Apparently it was the driver's birthday -- her 20th -- which may increase the possibility that alcohol was involved. I'm sure they'll do an autopsy and we'll know the toxicology results in a day or so.
I just heard on the 10:00 news, the 20 year old driver had a questionable driving record to say the least. Last year she was involved in a fatal accident (deemed not her fault- hmmmmmm). Her license has been suspended twice (in 3 years) and she's also received 2 summonses for ignoring traffic control devices. I guess one can draw their own conclusions. I wonder how long it'll be before the 3 families file suit against the LIRR?
At West 4th today the downtown F was ordered to go express to Jay st! Boy that changed the SRO state of the train in a hurry! A few people rushed down from the upper level after hearing the announcement (prospect of superceding an A). The C/R changed the digital signs to F TO CONEY ISLAND | 6 AV LOCAL | CULVER EXPRESS which was close enough to what we were actually doing. The real surprise was the T/O was doing the R.R. track clear horn (long, long, short long) instead of (short short, short short). He almost forgot to slow to 15 for one stop (but the horn surprised everyone into stepping as far away from the platform as possible). At Jay we became a normal F, and the signs changed back to 6AV/CULVER LCL. The A across the platform was sent local all the way to Euclid (poor them).
The F many times will battery run to Jay, I've been on them a few times.
BTW, a NorthBound "F" ran via West End to West 4th via "B" and Manhattan Bridgte this afternoon at 1:15PM. T/O said a re route. Must have been way behind???
Not really a Culver Exp;. Too bad they could say "Houston Express". Haha .The Culver Express was a blast. Bergen, 7th Ave, Church, 18th Ave, Kings Hwy.then all stops. Ran a few with R1-9 too. Great.
A few questions about skip stop service.
This occured today on a Manhattan bound 2. We left Flatbush and skip 2 stops-Newkirk AV and Beverly RD. We stoped at Church and then we skip 2 more and finally arrived at President st. We went local to Manhattan from there. My question is such operations normal? It was during rush hour. I though that both the 5 and 2 were local in Brooklyn. Are there any other line that use this practice?
What is the difference between a short,short,short,short horn and a short,short,long,short horn?
They do that when the trains need to make up some time due to a delay. Happens everywhere, if you saw my post about the F line's little express run. Other lines where this happens almost daily are:
N/R - Routed via B'way express when late
F - Hillside ave express when late, and also in Brooklyn either the express tracks or express on local stopping at express stations only (+ 4th ave).
G/R - Express in either direction along QB (the full length often). Often on the local track, sometimes express.
6 - Express on the local, but will also stop at Bleecker in the downtown directions. Trains will also not pick up passengers until 14st after turning at Brooklyn br (and will not pick up there either).
1/9 - Express on local, also stopping at 59th st and Houston st stations.
Q - Down B'way express, no stops between 14th and Dekalb. Nobody's ever on the train because they don't know where its going, and the time will often be around 15-20 minutes to do so. Nap time...
Also, no stops from Kings H'wy to Church ave.
2 - No stops between 96th and 135 (either direction). If T/O forgets and stops at 110th, it changes to no stops until Grand Concourse.
4 - Jerome ave express stops, also Yankee Statium.
2/5 - Skips various stops along White Plains rd el.
The D will get routed express on the Brighton when running late.
>>>What is the difference between a short,short,short,short horn and a short,short,long,short horn?<<<
Short, short, short, short is used for trains bypassing a station.
Under the new rules, the T/O blows two short blasts upon entering and another two short blasts upon leaving.
Under the old rules, a T/O was required to blow short successive blasts for the length of the station.
Short, short, long, short does not exist.
Long, long, short, long is the warning signal used for a railroad train (federal law). This signal is not used in the NYCTA subway system.
Rule 61 from an old rule book:
"o" for short sound and "___" for longer sound.
(a) ___ Apply brakes immediately-STOP
(b) ___ ___ Sounded when passing caution lights or flags to warn flagman of approach of train.
(c) o o An answer to any signal
(d) o o o Road Car Inspector (RCI) to respond to train.
(e) ___ o Signal Maintainer to respond to train.
(f) ___ o ___ o Train Crew needs (Police) assistance
(g) o o o o Train request to Tower Operator or handswitcher for route or signal.
(h) Succession of Short Sounds A warning to persons on or near the trackway or on short station platforms. This isgnal must also be sounded when a train is operating agianst the normal direction of traffic or when a train is making an irregular move, or when a train is pasing through a station without stopping
H is the rule that is changed.
LONG-LONG-SHORT-LONG is one signal used by railroads when they approach grade crossings. I last heard it used when the SIR had grade crossings. The last grade crossing on the Subway system was eliminated many years ago on the "L" in Carnarsie.
I was one of the few M/M who used the standard grade crossing whistle signal as it wasn't in the TA rulebook! Being a railfan I knew it so blew that signal at E105 st, when I worked Canarsie. It broke my heart having to stop before crossing. Nice downgrade stretch of track to make a grandstand stop at E105, which transpired later. BTW the__o_ signal can be used for warning track personnel, or other workers On ROW.
Denver's LRVs use that signal at both high speed grade crossings on the light rail line. There is a third grade crossing beneath the Colfax viaduct; however, it only has a flashing signal and LRVs do not blow that signal. At that point, they're negotiating a sharp curve and aren't going all that fast.
Can anyone direct me to (or identify) a complete list of subway lines that have an additional layup track or turnaround loop (i.e.- 34th St. IND, Brooklyn Bridge "6", South Ferry "1,9", Broad Street "J", 71st/Continental "R,G"), that allow for a subway line to terminate and turn around (like the "J") while another line that shares the same track and station (the "M") continues beyond the terminus point of the other line ? Also, if possible, please indicate if the layup track or loop disrupts or delays the normal service of the line which shares the same track and does not terminate at that station. I hope I phrased this question correctly- it would help with a project I'd like to work on shortly. Thanks, fellow sub-talkers!
Can anyone direct me to (or identify) a complete list of subway lines that have an additional layup track or turnaround loop
(snippage)
Hi,
I think the book of track maps that I publish will asnwer all your questions (and more). Click on the cover image below and follow the link. I will have about 75 copies of my brand new version (2.4b) coming back from the printer next Monday.
Conversely, I've also put older versions up online (in colour) if you're interested in researching it that way. They are at http://www.nycsubway.org/maps/track
Cheers,
PJ Dougherty
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Thanks for the heads-up. I'm the world's farthest thing from a Web designer, and that site was thrown together in Front Page 97 back in 97 or 98. It's a horrid site that I'd dearly love to update if I ever re-learn how to edit HTML. I think what you're getting is an error relating to the Front Page extensions or some other FP crap that gets littered into code by that wretched product.
One of these days, when I'm not flying, playing with Linux, Win2k, my firewall and proxy server, revising my trackbook or spending quality time with my wife (not in that order), I'll re-do the entire site, only this time using Dreamweaver, GoLive--or HomeSite if I get brave.
Cheers,
PJ Dougherty
What's wrong with Emacs to edit your html? ;-)
Besides, the quuxuum.org server if that's the one you're talking about doesn't support and never will support the FP Extensions.
What's wrong with Emacs to edit your html? ;-)
Oh, nothing's wrong with Emacs (or VI or even lowly little pico). The problem is more locally focused on that area between the chair and keyboard. I am still greatly HTML-impaired terrified (writing event he simplest lines of code gives me the same feeling as having my tongue within inches of a cold flagpole in January!). Not to mention Emacs-impaired as well (grin).
Cheers,
PJ Dougherty
It's those typos. They'll get you every time.
Guess what zman, if you didn't use Bill's Browser, you could get there. Works fine on Netscape.
Hi Folks, This evening while traveling with a friend, We came across an R 36 Mainline pair on the 7 line at Grand Central. The car #s are 9550 and 9551. We rode the 9550 to Queensboro Plaza. The bulk head signs still say "6 Pelham Bay Park" and "6 Brooklyn Bridge" these cars must have just come over. Theres more Mainliners to come. the weird thing is that these 2 cars are westinghouse cars and are riding with a GE consist go figure.
Those mainline cars don't have lights that flicker do they?
Yes they do. They are basically the same as their worlds fair counter parts only difference is the smaller windows.
Well they could be sending them over since the R-142As are appearing in droves now on the 6. It makes sense, but it's mere speculation on my part....
-Stef
Well they could be sending them over since the R-142As are appearing in droves now on the 6. It makes sense, but it's mere speculation on my part....
Was that part of the TA's plan...to salvage the mainline R36s as well? I thought only the worlds fair cars would stay around longer. But hey, there have been several different posts on subtalk recently regarding when the R62As go to the #7, and/or which redbirds will be retired first...I think we'll really just have to wait and see what will happen instead of speculating...though I know that is fun to do :) -Nick
It makes sense that if all R-36s are the same, except for the windows, then the best of the group will be preserved, regardless of the window configuration. "The Best" probably has more to do with structural integrity than anything else.....good parts can always be cannibalized from the cars the get scrapped.
Add 9552-9557 to the list. They're on the 7 line too. At one time however, werent these all part of the 7?
I remember 9484-9557 being a part of the #7 line in the 70's.
I guess these will come over before the aluminum cars.
I also noticed they 'broke up' the subway series car. Car # 9712 and 9713 are not part of it anymore and the cars are out of order. What's up?
flx7595
as i figured the redbirds will finish on the # 7 line !!!!!!
Either that or too many WF R36's are dropping dead that they had to call in Mainliners for backup.
Shawn.
Train Dude said in the last MBDF report the No. 7 trains had the second highest numbers behind his R-68s at Concourse, so I doubt there are suddenly a lot of them falling apart.
It may be that due to the high MBDF the MTA has decided to keep the Corona fleet as intact as possible and augment it with spare R-36s from the mainline. If that's the case, the MTA may have decided to keep the R-62s on the mainline and phase out all the Redbirds there as the R-142s arrive.
If they move the R-36s mainliners and the best of the R-33s over to the Flushing line, it won't see any new trains until either the last of the R-142s show up, or when the next order (reportedly the R-160) arrives, which would also allow time to modify the Corona and Coney Island car shops to handle the new roof-mounted AC systems.
R160???!!! What's that?
R-160 may or may not be the contract number for the next order orf IRT cars to replace the last of the Redbirds.
R-160 may or may not be the contract number for the next order of IRT cars to replace the last of the Redbirds.
From what I figured, the current R142(A) including option orders are able to entirely replace the Redbirds and have some cars to spare.
Shawn.
What about the WF R-36s camped out on the 6? Wouldn't it make sense to send them back to their original habitat first?
I would think so, but I've heard a couple of the are among the rustier R-36s in the fleet.
Time for the Bondo Squad, then.:-)
Noticed last night that the 'subway series' redbird is broken up. Looks like 9712 and 9713 have been uncoupled and the other cars moved around (9357 is now the lead car to Flushing).
Any news?
thanks.
flx7595
Don't you mean cars 9394-9395 were moved around? 9394 was the lead car to Flushing wasn't it? Then who's the lead car going towards Times Square if 9712-9713 was taken out?
9389-9388 is the lead to the Square.
flx7595
Cars 9550-9557 now on the #7
This was probably asked, but how do they get from the #6 to the #7 line? Through Queensboro Plaza?
flx7595
With two R33S cars at each end, here is my guess.
Westchester Yard -> 125 Street Uptown Station -> Jerome line -> Concourse Yard -> Coney Island -> Broadway line -> Queensboro Plaza -> Corona Yard.
Chaohwa
If they are willing to do a couple of reverse moves, they can do it much faster by reversing at 47-50 St. to Lex-63rd, then reversing to 57th-7th, then to Queensbridge. To avoid delaying revenue trains, they would probably have to do this either at late night or with two T/Os, one at each end. I'm not sure if it's worth it from a cost perspective, though, considering the OT involved.
subfan
The Mainline R 36 car #s that are on the 7 line are: 9548-9557. Now all we need is 9478-9547 to come over. I can hardly wait.lol. These cars will probably come in sets of 10s.
Last night there was a consist involving an R36 MainLine on the 7:
9629-9628-9331-9551-9550-9727-9726-9735-9734-9662-9663
IDK if they still have this consist existing but be on the lookout for more.
I just saw it this morning pass by 55th Street.
Did they send 9478-9483 to the #6 too?
Those are also #7 originals I believe.
flx7595
Yes, indeed.
Chaohwa
Here's a story about last night's 6:37 pm Trenton local.
Read See http://www.nj.com/newsflash/index.ssf?/cgi-free/getstory_ssf.cgi?j0104_BC_NJ--StuckTrain
A fairly comprehensive story by Joe Malinconico et. al. appears in Friday's Star-Ledger. An air connection embedded in a block of ice became disconnected and was hidden by the ice, so the cause of the stoppage was not discovered for quite a while.
Transportation in general, and transit in particular.
He handed out goodies for people with power. The main thrust is a program to guarantee that outside New York City the elderly won't have to pay county taxes anymore (no matter how rich they are).
Larry Littlefield:
I didn't listen to the state of the State address but the fact that he didn't mention a thing about transit doesn't surprise me. I also think the fact is interesting that elderly residents OUTSIDE of New York City in time will not have to pay county taxes anymore. What about those who live in New York City. I guess they don't count. I also guess that transit doesn't count either.
BMTJeff
(I didn't listen to the state of the State address but the fact that he didn't mention a thing about transit doesn't surprise me. I also
think the fact is interesting that elderly residents OUTSIDE of New York City in time will not have to pay county taxes anymore. What about those who live in New York City. I guess they don't count. I also guess that transit doesn't count either.)
I'm not prepared to say I despise Pataki more than I despise Sheldon Silver, but at least they are even.
It seems only fair that the elderly won't have to pay county taxes outside NYC. They already don't pay county taxes inside NYC. :-)
"It seems only fair that the elderly won't have to pay county taxes outside NYC. They already don't pay county taxes inside NYC. :-) "
Yeah, but they pay a little thing called NYC Income Tax, which probably outweighs any county tax out there.
("It seems only fair that the elderly won't have to pay county taxes outside NYC. They already don't
pay county taxes inside NYC. :-) "
Yeah, but they pay a little thing called NYC Income Tax, which probably outweighs any county tax
out there.)
Yep, when you add up New York City's local taxes they are about the highest anywhere, mostly because of the massive amount the state requires the city to either transfer to the state for Medicaid or spend on Welfare (these are state responsibilities elsewhere in the U.S.) When I ran the numbers, however, I found a shocker -- Nassau and Suffolk taxes are as high, despite a far lower health and social services burden. All the benefits of screwing New York City have been captured by the patronage machines out there.
I owned property in Brooklyn for 8 years and had relatives in Nassau Co. Even considering that my property was much older I still paid less than half what they paid in real estate tax.
Now I hear of such taxes running $4000-5000- and up in suburban counties in New York and New Jersey while I'd pay about $800 for similar in Montana. NoDak somewhat lower but they have a sales tax OTOH Mont. pols. want one in the worst way.
I talk too much...simply nothing is free and where one doesn't get you the other does, in a different way. EG if you have a new or nearly new vehicle in Montana the plates cost in the $500 range..all vehicles except the oldest are assessed and you are taxed for plates.
Do NYC Transit employees receive discounts or free passage on any of the other MTA Agency services such as LIRR, SIRT or bridges/tunnels?
Officially, No.
Peace,
ANDEE
In other works you work for TA your "pass" is only good on TA. If you work for LIRR your pass is only good for LIRR.
Back in 1985 when I took the SIRT to Tottenville HS the head of the MTA got on the train. At the time SIRT was collecting fares on the train (lifting transportation) when the head of the MTA showed the conductor his pass he was told that it was not good on the SIRT and he needed to pay. The head of the MTA did pay the fare.
When the Trainman pointed out to the Conductor WHO he just collected the fare from, the head of the MTA laughed it off saying the Conductor was 100% right and just doing his job. This did make the headline of the advance though, somthing like "MTA HEAD has to pay for his ride"...
Correct. However, some conductors on NJT, Amtrak (my experiences) or LIRR or MetroNorth(other employees experiences) let us ride for free. One time I was going to Philly and an AMtrak stopped routinmely at my station on NJT . The conductor saw my MTA jacket and asked where I was headind. I stated Philly and he said come on and ride (for free)!
I always have tickets ready and expect to pay for other than NYCT subway, MaBSTOA Bus and NYCT local bus. We have to pay for NYCT express bus service.
And the nycDOT "privates" expect their brothers in the TWU (union speak, not a sexist remark) to pay ... we get the most trouble with the mngt. that EXPECTS to ride for free. We also get the same treatment from the guards at Riker's ... our drivers don't argue with a guy/gale carrying a gun.
Mr t__:^)
>>>Correct. However, some conductors on NJT, Amtrak (my experiences) or LIRR or MetroNorth(other employees experiences) let us ride for free. One time I was going to Philly and an AMtrak stopped routinmely at my station on NJT . The conductor saw my MTA jacket and asked where I was headind. I stated Philly and he said come on and ride (for free)! <<<
I'm surprised you didn't report him. 8-)
Peace,
ANDEE
Back in the early 70's a Penn Central Hudson conductor askedif I was a priest because I was dressed too somber. I advised him I was a motorman and he asked to see my pass..rode on the house with him a few times. Once rode SIRT on my TA pass, once on the LIRR because they took my sidekick's New Haven pass. But it wasn't common nor accepted practice, needless to say could have resulted in discipline for trainman accepting it.
Yes, but it's more common on the Class 1 RxRs & AmTrak. When I worked for Pan Am it was a official thing, i.e. you'ld need to obtain a ticket for your almost free ride ... I always liked Delta, back then they treated you much better then the other US airlines. Usually you got treated to worst on your own airline.
Mr t__:^)
Sounds like that toll booth attendant near the end of the original Pelham 1-2-3 who insisted on collecting 50 cents from Garber even though he flashed his TA police badge.
BMT Standard--New name for the current B.M.T.
BMT Triplex--Heavy Duty! All the ingredients of the BMT Standard, served on a 137' long roll, cut in three pieces for easy eating.
The IRT--One piece of bologna with no toppings. The money for ingredients went to buy out all the other sandwich shops.
The IND--Nicely toasted roll served with instructions to take the ingredients out of other patrons' BMT and IRT sandwiches.
The IND Second Sandwich--Twice as expensive as all the other sandwiches put together. Consists of a plate with a 64-page color brochure explaining what a great sandwich it would have been if only they could have made it.
The Second Avenue Sub--Everyone pays a subcharge on their sandwiches to fund this. Currently consists of two small pieces of bread served on three plates.
The Manhattan Bridge--12" hero, but you're not allowed to eat the other half of it until 2004.
Paul this is a classic.
LOL!
It's a keeper...
BMTman
I tried ordering one of the Second Ave Sandwiches; they told me it will be ready soon, but I've been standing on line since 1923....They told me if I'm patient, maybe they'll serve me a "stubway" sandwich.
I ordered a "Franklin Avenue Shuttle" sandwich....most of the ingregients were rotten, so they removed the good ones and put them on a single slice of bread and served it to me that way.
... and, for this week only, every sandwich comes with a complementary Green Hornet (comic) book!
--Mark
...whatabout the South Ferry Feast?
:ALL the toppings must fit into the
first 5 feet of the sub since that's all
that's gonna "fit into your platform mouth"
in one sitting?
How about "The Market-Frankford" meatball sandwich. It will have four meatballs.
That has to be served with an Almond Joy on the side.
The Triplex would be so heavy you'd need a hoist to lift it to your mouth.:-)
How about the Multisectional? Lightweight, cut into five equal sections. Perfect for dieters.
How about the Multisectional? Lightweight, cut into five equal sections. Perfect for dieters.
I was thinking of The Bluebird, light grilled chicken breast on a flaky croissant roll with blueberry mayonnaise.
Do you think it would fly?
It wouldn't fly, but its acceleration into your digestive system would be pretty good :)
--Mark
An R-10 sandwich would go down fast, with thunderous results.:-)
Allright. I'll join in. The IRT is of course narrower than the other sandwiches--and can't be served with any other sandwich---but can be accross the table from a BMT at the Queensboro Counter.
Well, I gave it my best shot.
:-) Andrew
What next? Jared will be our conductor? (He'll soon inspire us all to lose weight and ride our local transit systems! :>)
Not that there's anything inherently wrong with that.:-)
The Sea Beach Sandwich. It's my contribution to culinary taste. An Italian sausage, red peppers, in a non-onion ( I hate onions) marinara sauce. It must be served on a whole wheat Italian roll. Top it down with a cold glass of California lemondade, and you have a treat. That's my Sea Beach sandwich, and I think it's a real bang-up treat.
However, all Subway restaurants in Astoria and eastern Queens plan to stock several times as many (up to seven (7) times as many) IRT Sandwiches as they do BMT Standard burgers. Thus the line for the BMT's at the QB counter will always be long and grumpy.:<
-jestfully,
turnstiles
As long as they're not serving pre-war meat. :)
Ee-eeeeewwww!
For those who ride the B line, I'd like to offer them my R68 Sandwich. It's compliments include:
1) Heavy on the mayo, heavy on the bread, just plain heavy.
2) Good tasting but slow going down. So slow, you might get the "runs" for another train.
3) BBQ extra for the 2579 fanatics.
4) Iron supplement
LOL, couldn't of put it better myself
Peace,
ANDEE
When did the Monmouth Jct. station (between Princeton and Jersey Ave.) on the NEC close? There's still a little passenger shed there, but I have a 60's pic of a large granite station building. When was that knocked down?
I don't know the exact date (without a timetable search) but the last time I recall stopping there was in the mid 70's. I made one of my last mainline trips in MP54's at about the same time. I remember stopping at Monmouth Jct., Deans and Adams. I remember the doodlebugs stopping at Monmouth Jct. in the early 60's, but never got the chance to ride them at that time.
I had a intresting ride in this AM on the D 8:07am from the Highway (feet hurt, wanted a seat so no Q today).
Had to be a new conductor or one in training,
Ave M was annoucned Ave H was nexted.
Newkirk, new Strong voice on the PA annoucing transfer to Q.
Court/Bev the other voice is back.
Church Ave, annoucment made "Church Ave, D to Manhattan, Step in Stand Clear of the Doors, Please"...Problem the doors never were opened. Doors open, annoucment made once more in a more embarrased voice.
Parkside, "Let Them In Please, Let Them In Please" (first time for that).
Prospect Park heard in the backround on PA "Stick your head out the window".
Here it gets fun, Command holds us for sick pax at Grand St. Now we have the T/O C/R and Instructor C/R all making annoucements SOME at the same time (guess who shouted over who).
Well at least it passed the time while waiting, ride took an extra 40 minutes.
Ugh, student C/R. Whenever I get on a train with a student C/R (you can tell by the shaky and unsure voice and sometimes you can hear the regular C/R in the background telling the student what to say), I just groan since I know that my commute has just been unwillingly extended.
Hey they gotta learn sometime
Why not feel honored that you're helping break in a new student?
Several years ago, I boarded a Southern Calif. Rapid Transit District bus on my way to college classes. The bus was driiven by a student driver who wasn't supposed to take on passengers, but the instructor sitting behind him didn't notice me soon enough to stop me from hopping aboard; he decided I was OK, so I paid the fare and stayed on. The student drove the bus on the usual route, making all stops and opening and closing doors, practicing pulling out into traffic, the works; but I remained his only passenger.
When we arrived at the college I got off, but not before praising him for his consciencious efforts and his obviously good rapport with the instructor. I wished him luck.
About a year later, I boarded the same line, and there he was, the former student now a full time driver (and he did a superb job). He remembered who I was! I congratulated him on his promotion, and continued riding his bus frequently thereafter.
I was speaking as a passenger and not as a train operator. I should have clarified that.
Not to mention that I've had a few road students of my own that almost made my hair turn white. Now, I don't accept road students anymore except on the C & G lines. Those two lines as you all know run shorter trains so at least there is some room for error (and believe me, there's a whole lot of error).
I would accept them on all lines if the TA didn't hold the trainer (me) 100% responsible for anything that would happen(i.e. station overrun, etc.), but since they do, the majority of times I'll let someone else earn the extra 2 hours pay.
I know you were speaking as a passenger. That's why I related my own story as a passenger (I am not a transit professional, so I have no stories as one by definition).
If you need that type of room for error, then you aren't in control of your train at all times. I already know what it will be like to train these outside T/Os, as I did break in the carpenters and structure maintainers who were forced into RTO around 1994 or so. My attitude is someone has to do it. Let it be the ones wh do it for a living. There are those who are claiming already that they will refuse to break in student T/Os coming off the street and our job will further demoralize when they run through switches, signals and station. The C.B.A. pays us 2 hours, not enough in my book but none the less, overtime given us to do the job. A while back, miscellaneous T/Os filed a grievance because both T/Os wanted the 2 hours to break in a student because the T/Os don't change responsiblities during the day. The one who gets the engine stays there, the one who flags is out in the cold for the duration. The TA used a TSS to break in the students after that so who is really gaining? I'd rather have the qualified knowledgible motorman breaking in the student as it does reflect to the student. To be off the 8 car marker is just as much a cardinal sin for the Jay Street SORC TSSs as it is to put the panel out of the station. Don't use a short train as an excuse here to be cocky with the equipment, it doesn't work anymore. You are only as good as your last move.
>>>The C.B.A. pays us 2 hours, ...<<<
A question, is this 2 hours incuded? In other words work 8 and get paid for 10?
Question 2: I hab=ve a good friend who is a TW/O does it work the same for him when he has a "student"?
Peace,
ANDEE
Yes for both questions.
Then I see your point, they should pay you double when you have a student.
Peace,
ANDEE
Actually I would train all students for free if they just didn't lay all of the blame on us if anything minor happens. If a train puts a door panel out and it's called in, I'm out for 15 days and absolutely nothing happens to the student.
If I want to gamble my paycheck like that, I'd rather go to the local OTB.
I hear you
Peace,
ANDEE
>>>There are those who are claiming already that they will refuse to break in student T/Os coming off the street<<<
Count me among them.
So, it is not required that you take a student?
Peace,
ANDEE
Sounds as if you had to be there.
Nice confidence builder, Lou. :):) No seriously, what other mistakes did you notice besides the annoucements and door not opening right away?
Train#1986Mike
I am happy to report that the world famous Coney Island Cyclone rails are clear of snow.
At least I'm happy!
It should also be noted that there is no snow reported on the Thunderbolt, either :)
--Mark
I don't know about that; how well do scrapyards generally shovel?
Okay we all know from the movie Pelham 123 that a subway train gets it's call sign from their departure terminal and the time they leave and good old Stillwell you qualify it with the line letter. And we've read that reroutes like a Mott train on 7th Ave still uses the Lex call sign.
But what about like a Q ending a run at Brighton Beach and then is moved to the yard. Would it still be Brighton XXX even though it is going the other way?
Basicly what are non revenue moves called or call signs?
Thanks
Depends where you are.
Put-ins from 137 Yard to 242 are referred to by their position (North/South) and Track Number (7, 8, 9). Layups are refered to the same way.
Trains going from 242 to the carwash at 207 Yard are "Wash trains" and the ones coming back are "Wash returns"
Put-ins from New Lots to Flatbush are "Flatbush Put-ins".
Trains that go out-of-service en-route become "The original Call sign running light"
Trains not in service, moving from one point to another are "Light" or "Extra"
The garbage trains are "Regular Work #?"
The Revenue Collectors are "Collector #?"
Work trains are either "Work #?" or "Roadmaster #?"
Your hypothetical Q is probably just a "Q lay-up to Stillwell Yard"
>>>The garbage trains are "Regular Work #?"<<<
I haven't heard that saying "Regular Work" in years! Shows you how long I've been away from the IRT.
In the B division, a garbage train is called a "pickup".
Originating in 38 St Yard: Eastern Pickup & Southern Pickup
Originating in 207 St Yard: #3 & #4 Pickup.
Funny how the A & B divisions while they look the same are sooooo different from one another. And not just with "pickups/ regular works" either.
>>>But what about like a Q ending a run at Brighton Beach and then is moved to the yard. Would it still be Brighton XXX even though it is going the other way?<<<
In the case of the Q layup, the train would keep it's original call letters out of 21st Street until it reaches Stillwell Yard.
Alex L.'s post illustrates most of the examples used. One other is for yard to yard transfers. In the B div., you just state the destination of the transfer and the operating motor.
IND/BMT lines use the letter of the line in their call letters. The IRT just uses the terminal, which can get a little confusing if you're a rush hour train out of Flatbush Av.
The following are the most popular TA terms used to identify a train:
A-Apple
B-Bravo
C-Charlie
D-Delta
E-Echo
F-Fox
G-George
J-just the letter J
L-Larry, but more often the letter L is only used
M-Mary
N-November or Nancy
Q-Quincy
R-Romeo
S-Shuttle
Z-Zebra or just the letter Z
The IRT just uses the terminal, which can get a little confusing if you're a rush hour train out of Flatbush Av.
Actually, Flatbush is the exception. Trains out of Flatbush during rush hours usually ID themselves as "Flat to White Plains" or "Flat to Dyre" sometimes with the occasional "2 type" or "5 type" thrown in, especially if they are on the wrong side of town.
A couple of questions:
First of all, trains leaving terminals with "numbered" names like 207th Street or 179th Street, how do they identify their departing station on the air? Do the "F" trains use "Hillside" and the "A" trains use Inwood?
Also why doesn't the TA use a standard phonetic alphabet like the US Military or the NYPD? Speaking of which, does tne NYPD use "Lincoln" or "Larry" for "L"?
Thanks
George
The International Civil Aeronautics Orginization Phonetic for "L" is LIMA, Police generally use LINCOLN
And LIMA is pronounced "Leema," not "Leima" like a lima bean.
Not at all. An F train might be referred to as the 6:01 Fox (or Foxtrot) 179th St. An A train might be referred to as the 7:17 Apple 207th St. The terminal name is a terminal name regardless of whether it's a number or not.
A=Apple...B=Bravo...C=Charlie...D=Delta...E=Echo...F=Fox...G=George...J=?...L=Larry...M=Mikey...N=November...Q=Quincy...R=Romeo...Z=Zebra
J is simply Jay
M is Mary not Mikey
Shawn.
According to CNN.com, Congressman Bud Shuster, R-PA, announced he will retire on Jan. 31 because of "health scares." Woo-hoo.
Woo-hoo? Is that a technical term?
From what I've read, he should be in jail.
I hear the new chir of the House Transportation Committee is from Alaska. So much for mass transit.
Which is a better location for watching NEC trains go by at speed? Linden NJ, Rahway NJ, or Metropark NJ. I'm going down to one of these stations on friday to photograph some fast trains in the snow. The snow kick-up effect is really cool.
-Dan
nyrail.cjb.net
Rahway or Linden would be better. Most everything stops at Metropark. New Brunswick is scenic too but it's up on embankment, may not be much snow (but you could busgeek the Rutgers bus system while you were there).
-Dave
> busgeek the Rutgers bus system
Oops, forget that, it's winter break.
-Dave
If you want to go further south, Princeton Junction is a very ideal station for you, much better than the stations you mention.
Chaohwa
You want to go to Rahway. Rahway has an island platform that give you good shots of all 6 tracks and UNION tower can make a nice back drop. The only problem might be NJ coast trains stopping for a station stop and or slowing for the flyunder. Linden is a Corridor Line local only stop.
Following is a somewhat literary account of my trip on Acela Express, which took place between New York and Washington, DC on the evening of Friday, December 22, 2000. Having been away for the week between Christmas and New Year's Day, I have not had time to post to the board till now. Please accept my apologies if I rehash other posters' observations, as I have neither had time to read many of the messages since returning home. Here goes…
After arriving at Penn Station, my wife and I decided to sit in the Metroliner waiting area. We were early and had an hour or so to wait for our 9:00 departure, so we sat listening to the spine-gratingly squeaky escalators and shooing away a vagrant trying to sell and out-of-date magazine (how did he get in the seating area anyway?). After 2 or 3 minutes of this nonsense, I decided to ask whether our AE tickets would allow us to wait in the Metropolitan Lounge. "Not technically," said the attendant, but he let us in anyway to wait in relative comfort and quiet. Even though there were more than a couple of kids running around in there, I decided to score one for Amtrak Customer Service.
At about 8:50 or so, we were led, pre-announcement (thank God), to Track 13 (uh-oh), West Gate, to wait to descend. Soon the train was announced, and down we went. As we boarded through the first door we saw, I found that a great many people already occupying seats. I didn't think about the fact that many a passenger might use Acela trains to travel through New York, commonly a terminus for Amtrak trains. My wife and I had to haul our luggage all the way down to the first coach to find 2 seats together. There was plenty of space in the overhead bin for my mid-sized rolling suitcase, my coat, and our backpacks. We were also lucky enough to find rack space in the forward luggage tower for my wife's larger suitcase.
In a few moments, we were heading into the Hudson tube. I noticed that it was rather bright in the coach, and this was with one side's fluorescent lights off. I much prefer the much dimmer Amfleet lighting, which lends an air of privacy to your trip. In these coaches, I felt like I was in a fish bowl. Also extremely annoying was the 2 hours and 45 minutes worth of muzak, which played over the PA for our entire trip. I asked the conductor about it. According to him, it was supposed to be playing. Why, I do not know. I noticed later, when I walked through the train, that some of the coaches were not playing it. I wished we had been on one of them.
After stopping at Newark, I noticed the automated announcement, "Stand Clear of the Closing Doors." I found this strange for a heavy-rail train. The LED displays and automated station stop announcements within the coach were not working (where have we heard that before?), and when I asked about that, the conductor said something like, "Oh, yeah. I guess you're right." I guess the Acela crews and engineers are still getting the hang of the new train.
As I concentrated on the smoothness of the ride after Elizabeth, I came to the conclusion that it is only a bit smoother than Amfleet equipment, but I think this has more to do with the infrastructure than the train. Later on in the trip, when there were more curves than there are in New Jersey, I could not feel the tilt while sitting. However, I could definitely detect it while standing up or walking, though it was only mild.
Before long, I overheard a man in the seat in front of me say to his seatmate, "Not as much room as advertised. Seems tighter than a Metroliner." I leaned up and had to interject, "Still beats coach on an airplane." He agreed.
After fiddling around a bit, the crew was eventually able to dim our cabin (cabin?!), I mean coach, somewhat after we had left Trenton. Thankfully, this made it easier to see out the window. But by that time, hunger had overtaken us, so I decided to try the café car for some snacks. As I walked backward through the train, I noticed that the couplings are so sealed off you can hardly tell where one car begins and the other ends. I walked through 3 or 4 of those sliding glass doors (a la "Get Smart" or "Star Trek"-whoooosh) and arrived at the Bistro car. There I got myself a cheeseburger, the wife a chicken wrap, some chips, and a soda. (All were passable.) I found it ironic that in highest of high-tech trains, the café attendant was using a manual calculator and a cardboard box for a cash register. I commented on this and was informed with a half-smile that I was not the first to point this out. I returned to my seat to munch and watch us zoom by the cars on I-95 between Trenton and Philadelphia. I concluded we must have been going over 100 mph. We soon arrived in Philly to see the second AE trainset sitting there in the yard, all aglow.
After leaving Philadelphia, between there and the Elmwood Carhouse, I noticed a huge fire blazing in the southwestern part of the city. I imagine the glow could be seen for miles. I later read in the papers that this giant fireball was some kind of gas pipeline rupture (there were no injuries, thankfully). Already having seen more than I expected, I finally caught my awaited glimpse of the neat rows of Kawasakis and PCCs at Elmwood.
It was then that nature called and I headed forward to try out the gigantic restroom, but not before taking a peak into the power car. If you shield the light, you can look in to see the machinery, a series of dimly-lit pipes and guages. Though this was very cool, I had no idea what I was looking at.
I soon finished what I had to do and returned to my seat to watch one of the crew members head to the head. Because I felt like it, and because I had noticed, I decided to mention to him that the red "occupied" indicator light did not come on when he was inside. I explained that I was simply concerned about a customer being unwittingly surprised by other passengers. (I had had the misfortune to do the surprising on my recent trip to the loo, but fortunately, the young lady was merely washing her hands at the time!) A few minutes later, an older fellow in a blue blazer with a nametag came down the aisle to check it out. They managed to jimmy the lock to make the red light come on, but I'm not sure passengers know to go through that kind of trouble. They seemed thankful for my concern, at least to my face. Who knows how I might have been ridiculed while out of earshot.
I returned to my seat to discover my unusual 2-setting reading lamp. I also realized that there were plugs for a headset, yet none were provided. I guess you have to bring your own. Thankfully, no one was yacking on his cell phone this trip, so I didn't really miss it. I never had a chance to inquire about this, so I'm still wondering. I looked out the window for a good while then and noticed a lot of flashing, which I can only assume was the pan arcing.
I soon decided to wander again and found myself back in the Bistro car. There I met a technician named Dave, whom I found at the conductor's closet. The display was showing the doors at the time, since we were stopped at Baltimore. Unfortunately, I did not get to see the speedometer (no great loss as we were in the lower, 135mph corridor anyway). Dave and I got to chatting, and I told him I had been "doing some reading." When I asked him how they solved the truck-hunting problem (they changed the wheel profile), he seemed taken aback, "Wow, you have been reading!" I guess he was not used to a knowledgeable passenger, and he seemed young enough that he probably has yet to become jaded towards us foamers. I'm sure that will change as he gets older. In our discourse, I learned that the reason for the slow speed on the southern portion of the NEC was both track and catenary related. After I listened to the café attendant complaining about "always having to ride backwards," I learned from Dave that they use wyes in both Boston and D.C. to turn the train in order to use "the better power car." Please forgive me for not remembering the number of the lead car in our consist. I will have to get my film developed to find out. Finally, after passing several laid-up HHP-8s in the yard outside of Union Station, we arrived on time to meet my sister and her husband for our ride to their Virginia home. (We would have taken Metrorail, but we had unwieldy luggage.)
My Review
Overall, the main highlight of the train was that it was new. The NY to DC speed is not all that much better than a Metroliner, and the coaches are perhaps only equally as comfortable. (As a matter of fact, there seemed to be random placement of fabric color on the seats. Some were a little greener, some bluer.) Also, it is somewhat difficult to manage the seat-back pocket due to the configuration of the tray-table in stow mode. The ride is a bit smoother, but the lighting is too bright, especially for night-viewing. That infernal muzak has got to go too! The spacious overhead bins are nice, but, as I discovered later, my wife's bigger suitcase will fit in an Amfleet overhead, but not in the AE's. I suppose this is not much of a concern for business travelers, although most of the travelers on that late-evening, holiday-weekend train were decidedly not business travelers at all. Having had the experience, I would probably choose Metroliner or Acela Regional over Acela Express when travelling between NY and Washington, simply in order to save the money. I do plan to take AE someday soon to Boston so I can experience that 150mph speed in Rhode Island. As far as the southern NEC, I recommend riding once for the bragging rights, but not again till they can upgrade the infrastructure.
I recommend riding once for the bragging rights, but not again till they can upgrade the infrastructure.
How could they upgrade it? Its the Standard Infrastructure of the World.
Replace the obsolete and worn-out catenary
Install moveable frog switches
Redo the signal system to support ACSE
Fix the crumbling bridges and tunnels
Replace Penn Station (NY)
Restore Penn Station (Newark)
Realign that stupid S curve in Elizabeth (?)
Realign the equally stupid S curve around North Philly
Remove the crumbling remnants of the old North Philly station
Replace the various catenary poles that have been wacked, bent, rusted, or twisted
Upgrade the power system to 60hz like it should have been 20 years ago
Remove the old, unneeded track structures and buildings along the ROW
Finish off concrete tieing the tracks
Even more radical - make the local tracksd next to each other and have every NJT stop an island platform, that way the express tracks can be next to each other and the interlockings can be simplified and smoother, plus there wouldn't be any need for locals to cross in front of expresses.
"Replace the obsolete and worn-out catenary"
The current cat is of far higher quality and looks much nicer than modern cat. The FRA is just a wuss.
"Install moveable frog switches"
I'd make re-installing all the old X overs a higher priority. 'Sides, those are lame.
"Redo the signal system to support ACSE"
Or just install 2 new cab signals. Satalite systems are prone to failure.
"Fix the crumbling bridges and tunnels"
Just because its looks crublming dosen't mean its going to fall down. All that old stuff was overengineered enough to tolerate a rather large amount of crumble. Look at the Slateford Cuttoff, that baby will never come down. Heck, every RR RoW has got the crumbles.
"Replace Penn Station (NY)"
With what, your ass or a hole in the ground? j/k Do you mean the station or the tracks or both. The tracks are the best possible design. BTW I was looking at a map and I found room for 2 more east river tubes at the end of the NJT tracks (1-4). The other tubes run under city streets and a tunnel at tracks (1-4) could mirrior the LIRR tubes on the north side.
"Restore Penn Station (Newark)"
What, the concourse or the tracks? Because they are already restoring parts of it. BTW is this really necessary for faster service?
"Realign that stupid S curve in Elizabeth (?)"
Bite you tounge! That's the most photogenic stop on the line!
"Realign the equally stupid S curve around North Philly"
What equally stupid S-curve? N. Philly is a large interlocking that will never see hi-speed service. Its close to ZOO and is hemmed in with industrial blight. You'll never see more than a 55-60 mph speed limit and that is possible w/ an S curve.
"Remove the crumbling remnants of the old North Philly station"
Why, it might grow to incorporate those remnents? Also in case you didn't know that's how old things are disposed in Philly. Its called the Philly Forget and you can see other examples at 30th St. and Suburban stations.
"Replace the various catenary poles that have been wacked, bent, rusted, or twisted"
I haven't seen (m)any of those. It is really a problem?
"Upgrade the power system to 60hz like it should have been 20 years ago "
Is there really an advantage to 60Hz power besides not having to pay conversion costs? I find it good that Amtrak has a self-contained power supply.
"Remove the old, unneeded track structures and buildings along the ROW"
Why pay money to remove something you'll probably end up needing later. BTW the only buildings along the RoW are interlocking towers and all of those are MoW bases or relay rooms.
"Finish off concrete tieing the tracks"
Blame SEPTA.
Ok, your radical plan is just plain nuts. Do you know how a 4-track main line is suposted to work? Depending on the time of day you can run the tracks in a comming-going 3-1, 2-2 or 1-3 arrangement. The current setup allows for maxium flexibility. BTW Locals are rarely put in front of Amtrak trains. Amtrak trains are frequently put on the local track behing a local. Island platforms require a fattening of the RoW, overhead walkways and reduced train speeds. Also your plan would hinder NJT express trains and local Amtrak trains.
/*The current cat is of far higher quality and looks much nicer than modern cat. The FRA is just a wuss.*/
WRONG. Please, every time it gets cold out, NJT and Amtrak are forever tied up because of a dam dewirement on the NEC. How many of those do you hear happening in the upgraded (NY) portion of the New Haven Line? Oh yeah, and they're finally tearing out that triangle shit above Port Chester asnd replaceing it with real catenary. New poles are going up, and they're already bolting up the supports, etc.
/*I'd make re-installing all the old X overs a higher priority. 'Sides, those are lame. */
Crossovers are high maintenance, don't allow for high speeds, and are rough. That's why they've all been replaced with switches.
/*Or just install 2 new cab signals. Satalite systems are prone to failure.*/
Whatever. Even the LIRR's ASC has a wider range than Amtrak's.
/*
Just because its looks crublming dosen't mean its going to fall down. All that old stuff was
overengineered enough to tolerate a rather large amount of crumble. Look at the Slateford Cuttoff,
that baby will never come down. Heck, every RR RoW has got the crumbles.*/
Um, the Baltamore tunnels are in need of replacement, the NY tunnels are getting bad, and there's at least one bridge in Maryland that needs replacement. Overbuilding something doesn't stop the effects of corrosion and reppeated stree cycles.
/* Do you mean the station or the tracks or both.*/
The station, and slightly realign the tracks to straighten out the LIRR platforms.
/*The tracks are the best possible design.*/
Debatesable. When the station was new and the West Side yard diudn't exist, it was the right design, now though, there's lots of dead wood that can probbably be pulled out. BTW,there's a Penn Central era stainless steel train car sitting in Penn. been there for who knows how long.
/* BTW I was looking at a map and I found room for 2 more
east river tubes at the end of the NJT tracks (1-4). The other tubes run under city streets and a
tunnel at tracks (1-4) could mirrior the LIRR tubes on the north side.
*/
This should be done, but then, if Amtrak was better at running Penn, it probbably wouldn't be needed.
/*What, the concourse or the tracks? Because they are already restoring parts of it. BTW is this really
necessary for faster service?
*/
Both. And hey, Newark is a hidden gem. It's just grimy and all.
/*Bite you tounge! That's the most photogenic stop on the line! */
It's also a stupid slow down.
/*I haven't seen (m)any of those. It is really a problem? */
Yes, they look bad and they're bound to come down sooner or later.
/*
Is there really an advantage to 60Hz power besides not having to pay conversion costs? I find it
good that Amtrak has a self-contained power supply.*/
Lighter equipment, ability to shop around for electricity, I've heard the AEM-7s do better on 60Hz. No need to buy hundred million dollar conversion plants, ability to take power from multiple sources, creating a redundant system. The 25hz system is dead.
When I say crossover I mean an interlocking plant with the ability to cross from any track to any other track. Also AE should be able to take the elizabeth curve at a faster speed with its tilting ability.
Many of your proposals seem to assume that Amtrak has oodles and oodles of cash to spend. I wouldn't be surprised if the employees don't run to the bank to cash their paycheques before the money is all gone.
>>>...and looks much nicer than modern cat. <<<
Looks do not matter. Functionality does
>>>Bite you tounge! That's the most photogenic stop on the line! <<<
Railroads should be built to transport passengers to their destinations as quickly as possible. Not for Photo-Ops.
Peace,
ANDEE
Looks matter, too. Of course, functionality matters more. Still, it's nice to have both when we can.
This is true'
Peace,
ANDEE
Music??? They didn't have music on my train.
As for the bathroom, I walked in on people because the locks themselves didn't work right. I took the northbound train from NY to Boston and also noticed many people traveling through New York.
How is the cafe car attendant riding backwards? On my train, the attendant was at the north end of tha car.
Interior signs announcing the next stop were working in some cars and not others on my train. I saw one that said Washington was the next stop.
My post was posted on December 31st (I think) if you wish to refer to it.
>>>Music??? They didn't have music on my train. <<<
I was hoping someone would say this. It proves my theory that the crew really didn't quite know what they were doing yet with the new train. The crew member I "complained" to was probably just blowing me off by telling me that the music was supposed to be on. A**hole.
>>>As for the bathroom, I walked in on people because the locks themselves didn't work right. I took the northbound train from NY to Boston and also noticed many people traveling through New York.<<<
Did you mention anything to the crew? Maybe if enough of us say something, they'll do a redesign. The Blue Blazer man et al seemed very interested in making sure the insides of their brand new train were working properly. I think it's still close enough to the beginning of the new service that they still care about customer feedback.
>>>How is the cafe car attendant riding backwards? On my train, the attendant was at the north end of tha car. <<<
As you know, on AE, the "kitchen" is situated such that the front counter faces the end of the car as opposed to facing the side as in an Amfleet II Cafe. It just so happened that the counter was facing aft on my trip.
>>>Interior signs announcing the next stop were working in some cars and not others on my train. I saw one that said Washington was the next stop. <<<
I did see the YELLOW electronic signs just inside the coach doors. They had 3 "readouts" in a single panel for displaying the major end-stops, like "BOSTON," "NEW YORK," & "WASHINGTON, D.C." But these did not change with each stop made (I mean like the way the R-142 is supposed to work). What I did not see working were the RED LED displays, overhead, at the end of each car.
I think they don't really yet have the hang of the new train yet. Or at least the people who do know every nut and bolt haven't bothered to train the crews well enough.
Criminee! They've had over a year to train these people!
The overhead LED signs were yellow, not red and displayed nothing worth reading, unlike on the Amfleet. What I wanted to see was automated announcements and the announcements would be displayed visually on the LED displays, sort of like on buses. For instance, as the automated announcement said "We are now approaching Philadelphia's 30th Street Station. Passengers detraining at Philadelphia's 30th Street Station should check the area around them for their personal belongings at this time. Please remember there is a small gap between the train and the platform. Thank you for riding Amtrak's Acela Express number 2150", the LED would say:
We are now approaching Philadelphia's 30th Street Station. Passengers detraining at Philadelphia's 30th Street Station should check the area around them for their personal belongings at this time. Please remember there is a small gap between the train and the platform. Thank you for riding Amtrak's Acela Express number 2150.
While that was done automatically, the conductors could help passengers with their baggage.
I didn't mention anything to the crew, mainly because they weren't interested or didn't understand I was a railfan. Also, some transit employees get annoyed with me after awhile.
Interesting post. Why not edit it and send it to Amtrak's president? Can't hurt (they won't keep you from buying another ticket) and if enough people do, maybe you'll see incremental improvements.
I've been cross-country several times on Amtrak, and up and down both coasts. I've been a regular on Metroliners and conventional trains. Most crews try hard to please customers, and I have heard them voice frustration (privately to me) that they want to offer better service but the equipment problems they faced were not going to be fixed anytime soon. One example of this was in the form of a grizzled old cook on the Empire Builder, who couldn't prepare the dinner sirloin because the grill was out - so he prepared chicken fried steak instead ("Amtrak don't want to fix nuthin" was his complaint). But his genuine respect for the passengers, and his outstanding crew chief's attitude, more than made up for it.
I haven't ridden Acela yet, but I will soon.
>>>Most crews try hard to please customers, and I have heard them voice frustration (privately to me) that they want to offer better service but the equipment problems they faced were not going to be fixed anytime soon. <<<
I believe you are right. But if this is the case, all I would ask is an honest answer. That way, should I write to Amtrak about the service, as you suggest, I would know where to place the blame. In other words, I would have more information to give Amtrak, and they in turn would be better able to direct their resources in the fixing the problem (in a perfect world, of course).
Not to go on a tirade here, which, of course, means that I'm about to, but it bothers me when people customer service positions are directed to treat their customers as ingnorant fools rather than intelligent adults. It's especially grating when I am in their corner, as is the case with me and Amtrak.
Incidentally, this is a major complaint of air travelers. It's not so much the fact that the plane is delayed, but rather that the airlines can't tell them why!
And before I hear, "You get what you pay for," from anybody, let me interject that customer service is a people thing, not a pay thing. It's about common courtesy. It's why you hold the door for a lady who is 10 steps behind you. She's not paying you, but you still respect her. I've held all kinds of jobs in my life, from the most menial service job to the white-collar position I have now. At no time did I ever feel as though I should treat my customers like they were idiots!
I can empathize with your feelings. Absolutely share them with Amtrak. Rather than looking to place blame, though, try to make it a positive, constructive letter showing what went right and what needs to be improved. You can't lose for doing it, and someone at Amtrak will read it - even if they won't do anything about it right away.
>>>Rather than looking to place blame, though, try to make it a positive, constructive letter showing what went right and what needs to be improved.<<<
Of course. I should have said "ascertain responsibility" rather than "place blame." I certainly wouldn't use the syntax I sometimes use in this forum in correspondence with any service provider! Especially if I was serious about being listened to.
The following is HEARSAY (from a fairly reliable source, but hearsay nonetheless).
The first class of Off-the-street TOs will be called for 22 January 2001. The second class will be called for 26 February 2001.
Once again, the preceding is RUMOR only at this time.
I saw R33s 8836-8845 on #4 and were pasted with orange stickers during Christmas holidays. Is this train a permanant move to Jerome line?
Chaohwa
Orange stickers would seem to indicate that this a permanent move. I spotted 8838 and 39 mixed in with the usual fleet of Jerome Av R-33s sometime ago.
On a related manner, I spotted 8846-55 this evening, and judging by the previous set of cars sent over to the 4, I'd guess Jerome Av has just gained an additional set for service. Will check to confirm this and see if there's anything out of the ordinary.
-Stef
...perhaps to cover for the "crash-and-snap"
set of r62a's damaged in the recent bump?
Good point. I thought of that, but of 15 of the 20 R-62 cars involved in the accident should have returned to service at one point or another.
-Stef
OK, I admit it, I haven't been following subtalk for awhile and don't live in NYC, so what's all this about V and W trains? More specifically, what's this about closing Grand Street? Does this have anything to do with the continued revitalization of the Manhattan Bridge? Anyone who'd like to shed some light on this will make me a happy boy. Thanks!!!
The're not closing Grand St. The V is a proposed Queens Blvd local to 53st and down 6th ave, while the F goes via 63st to 6th. As for the W, simply pull out a subway map from around 1987 and replace the yellow B D and Q with diamond W, round Q, diamond Q (respectively).
I was wondering if u guys wanted to take a Vote on this. I Like GE controllers because of how loud they are, and I believe they are faster! I was on a Westinghouse led R32 E once and it reached 40. ILL! Then I rode a R32 E with a GE Controller. Everytime the Operator hit the full service, it makes a sound that ONLY a GE makes!. Also, when a GE dumps, it is louder and better. A Westinghouse is too quiet!. I like loud Trains! Westinghouse is quiet, but I hear they are lighter weight. The only Westinghouse controllers I like are the ECAM controllers found on the R62A! No place better to hear a ECAM Controller dump is the 42nd street Shuttle!
Layta,
E to JAMAICA CENTER, 5546 R46
Whoa, what are you talking about? First, the fact that a car has GE or Westinghouse controller has nothing to do with how loud it is when the train dumps. Second, the R-32s have not had westinghouse controllers since 1988. Third, the E-cams are also on the R-68s. Finally, I doubt that you could tell by the way the car accelerated or by the sound it made in multiple, what type of controller it has.
>>>First, the fact that a car has GE or Westinghouse controller has nothing to do with how loud it is when the train dumps.<<<
Actually it does. An R32 train with a GE controller dumps louder than a R32 train with a Westinghouse controller.
>>>Second, the R-32s have not had westinghouse controllers since 1988.<<<
I used one last night.
Actually it does. An R32 train with a GE controller dumps louder than a R32 train with a
Westinghouse controller.
Train Dude cut-n-pasted the previous poster's erroneous lingo:
controller vs group switch.
When the R32s were GOH'd, the group switch was upgraded to GE
SCM-1, including cars that previously carried WH pneumatic CAM
packages. The master controllers are GE on Phase I rebuilds
and WH on Phase II. There were several other contract variations
between the rebuild phases including the HVAC equipment and
the air brakes. The Phase II cars have NYAB packages under
the floor and Phase I have WABCO. I don't recall what was
done with the ME42B brake valves. The NYAB cars have sort
of a "sneeze" emergency dump and the Phase I/WABCO cars
sound more like a flush.
On the subject, do the Coney Island R42s still have that ear shattering blast from the EMVs in the number 1 cab when the emergency brake is applied?
Actually it's the M&K R42's that blow your ears out. The CI 42's as well as all 40's just give a "gshhhh".
Thanks for answering a question that I've been meaning to ask Jeff.
I've always wondered why the R32's with GE and WH controllers have different brake packages. Now I know.
Zman - it's back to school car for you. R-32s do not have westinghouse controllers. All 594 R-32s have GE SCM-1 controllers. There are approximately 290 R-32 Phase II cars that have Westinghouse master controllers - hardly the same thing.
I interpreted the original post from "E to Jamaica Center" to mean to discuss master controllers. The point being made here is that an R32 with a westinghouse master controller does indeed dump quieter than a R32 with a GE master controller. I thought that's what he meant in his post.
P.S. Send me back to school car anyway. I could use a few days off the road!
Will do Zman and the first thing to teach you is the difference between the P2A and the SCM
What you are actually hearing is the difference in the EMV ports between the R-32 Phase I and R-32 Phase II. That is the valve mounted behind your head in the cab. You may also detect a slight difference from the pilot valve, the device in the master controller that is referred to as the "dead-man's feature".
BTW: For our politically correct friends, why have they not changed the name of this device to something like ITOEBA "incapacitated train operator emergency brake activator"?
Probably because they would have to define "incapacitated" and that would require an "electronic breathalyzer interface" (EBI) as well as a "randomized voluntary urinary depository device" (RVUDD) in order to determine the extent and type of incapacity ... either way, you're a randomly-gendered deceased personage.
On the mighty diesel, we just call them the mushroom. Step on it and bliss ensues. Fail to step on it and you get to explain it to NTSB. Or someone else.
Nonsense aside, there is nothing that makes me feel better than hearing an R1/9 do a brake release. Even BIE is music. Any chance of getting some handle time on one at one of the museums? As much as playing with 6k HP powered by dinosaurs is fun, there is nothing I enjoyed more than my days on the IND when those three magic letters MEANT something and there was such a thing as "Houston Express" and Hudson Terminal.
Any chance of getting some handle time on one at one of the
museums?
Join the Branford Shore Line Trolley Museum and, as a
member, you'll be entitled to come up on Members' Day (last
Saturday in April) and run our R-9 or Lo-V.
Ask heypaul to make a copy of his R-9 tape recording for you. You get all those marvelous R-1/9 sounds and can relive those good old days with a touch of a button.
>>>...like ITOEBA "incapacitated train operator emergency brake activator"? <<<
LOL
Peace,
ANDEE
Coast guard rescue as I post! Story was on Channel 5 a few minutes ago.
Should we get together and start a DUKW service?
DUKW?
DUKW's are WWII amphibious vehicles that look like tanks.
There is a tour company in Boston called Boston Duck Tours (DUKW=Duck) that operates these vehicles on a land-water tour (it tours the streets of Boston, then dips in the Charles River for a short sail). I've been on it the past couple times I was in Boston, and loved it! The guides are very entertaining and funny. In fact, it appears that the whole thing is a tongue-in-cheek operation.
On a trip downtown on the #5 train, I noticed sprinklers on the Southbound track bed just north of I think it was The Fulton St. Station. The sprinklers were on as the train rolled over that section of track. Why are they there? Does the undercarriage equipment get that hot? If it is not to cool down equipment, during the winter's cold temp spraying the undercarraige like that freeze up some of the equipment?
Seeking the Sprinklers, eh?
See: 14st. Union Square @ Southbound 5th Car
The sprinklers are on the roadbed to lessen the amount of noise the train makes on the rails as it rounds the curve coming into the station. Whenever a train approaches the station, the sprinklers spray water on the running rails to cut down on the amount of decibels that you and I must endure while waiting on the platforms for a train.
I saw this morning a sad sight @ Broadway Junction: the grand green tower of 'East New York Junction' has been razed completely. There is little sign that one was even there. It's amazing how fast these contractors worked considering the weather conditions the past few days.
Another rapid transit 'landmark' is lost.
BMTman
I can only relate..
I thought the same of a green tower
seen midtrack north of E. 180 Street.
Lit by sunlight over a snowcast ground,
the tower surely looked classical..
What about Atlantic Av? Is that completely wiped out too?
-Stef
that too is going if it is not gone already.
No, the skeleton is still standing.
BMTman
According to someone who "lurks" here that tower had landmark status, wrong again I guess.
Peace,
ANDEE
Landmark status does not mean that it can't be torn down, just that there is a lot more red tape in doing so.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Anon_e_mouse:
As you seem to be someone with familiarity with legal statutes, I would like to ask you just what would have to be done to remove/alter a landmark. Thanks very much!
-cordially,
turnstiles
Well, I have some familiarity with preservation law simply because I own an old house (locally landmarked, not a National Register listing) and because I have an interest in preserving viable old buildings. I am NOT a lawyer and am in no way offering any legal opinions.
With that formality out of the way... the answer is: it depends. If it is listed on the National Register of Historic Places, it cannot be demolished or altered in a way that would compromise the character or historical integrity of the structure or the structure's immediate environment using tax money. It would also prevent a private owner from taking tax credits for the use of the structure, even if such credits were unrelated to the historic status of the building. In addition, there are many local preservation ordinances which may have an impact on a structure. None of these ordinances can prevent the removal of a building, but they can restrict the alteration of an existing structure and (much like a zoning ordinance) can impact the use of the property after an existing structure is removed.
National Register listing requires the consent of the property owner at the time the listing is made so, contrary to popular belief, old Penn Station could not have been saved that way. A strong local preservation ordinance, however, would have saved it - and is what ultimately saved Grand Central. Structures can be de-listed; however, doing so for reasons other than significant damage or destruction doesn't usually occur.
Publicly-owned structures on the National Register face more significant obstacles when major modifications are needed, since by definition tax money is involved. In many cases this will involve a hearing in the court system - typically before an administrative law judge - to determine if the changes requested are essential to the public interest. The public has the opportunity to challenge the findings of the judge and can file suit to overturn the judge's ruling or parts of it. This process can be quite costly, on both sides, and consequently the governmental body involved either (1) takes action only when it is sure that there will be no public opposition and when there is a very clear case for public good, or (2) takes massive destructive action covertly, then says "well, there's nothing left worth saving", and gets what they want that way.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I guess the MTA got away with the removal of the Third Avenue Railway trolleybarn (Kingsbridge Depot) or the City's removal of the Thunderbolt by smashing the buildings before the court hearings. This is a popular practice of Rudy Guiliani as he evicted squatters then wrecked their buildings before the courts could get out the restraining orders. Once the buildings department considers a structure unsafe, taking it down is easier. Are there any penalties that can be levied in the latter for taking illegal destructive action? I would suppose that if the City of New York issued a permit of destruction with an address of a historical landmark, then any demolition should be considered illegal.
This is a popular practice of Rudy Guiliani as he evicted squatters then wrecked their buildings before the courts could get out the restraining orders.
Good! We don't need some limousine liberal judge allowing those squatters to continue to live illegally.
[Good! We don't need some limousine liberal judge allowing those squatters to continue to live illegally.]
Easy for you to say -- you're not out on the street!
And besides, alot of those city properties were going to pot. Yet, the squatters fixed them up (at least some of them did) but once the city sees that they can get some $$$$ for the buildings, the squatters get booted! Sure, it wasn't their property, but there has to be some give-and-take in situations like that.
BMTman
Why are the squatters spending their money fixing properties they don't have control over? They can spend it getting an apartment.
[Why are the squatters spending their money fixing properties they don't have control over? They can spend it getting an apartment.]
Have you seen the prices for apartments lately? You CAN fix up an apartment for a 'few dollars' (to make it livable). But to rent can be in the thousands. Just thought I'd point that out...
BMTman
There are always outer areas, roommates, and boarding houses.
re solutions to high NYC rents
There are always outer areas, roommates, and boarding houses.
And moving to the Sunbelt
And moving to the Sunbelt
Maybe if a cemetery plot is too expensive. But then there are plenty of bridges with walkways in New York.
>>>Maybe if a cemetery plot is too expensive.
Pork:
A cemetary plot? As a place for squatters to go - you must be joking.
-cordially,
turnstiles
No. I'm not saying squatters should die! I'm just putting death before moving to the sunbelt in a list of alternatives for people.
I'm not insulting squatters, I'm insulting the Sunhell.
No. I'm not saying squatters should die! I'm just putting death before moving to the sunbelt in a list of alternatives for people.
The hundreds of thousands of people who've moved to the Sunbelt would beg to disagree. Most of them probably are kicking themselves for not having moved years earlier.
Peter, Be my guest -- Actually, I like Tennessee
Actually, Peter, the scores of thousands of tons of white crap (snow) just within a mile's radius of my house convinces me that I'd like to go down there.
For something that usually only takes place for three months, that's not a valid reason.
I'd rather plow snow every weekend than have to run the air conditioner 24/365.
I feel the same way. Actually I enjoy some cold weather as long as it doesn't stay severe too long..sometimes does, sometimes doesn't. Four seasons are more interesting than warm all year.
Admittedly I was still young -34-when I moved from New York to Montana but still enjoying 4 seasons was part of the program.
(Actually, Peter, the scores of thousands of tons of white crap (snow) just within a mile's radius of my house convinces me that I'd like to go down there.)
Better go all the way down. Oklahoma (where my parents live) and Memphis (where a friend's parents live) have gotten socked this year. Come to think of it, none of the people I know who moved to Brooklyn FROM the sunbelt want to go back there, either.
I just hope our representatives concentration on cutting off the money to the "welfare states" now that they no longer have the power to tell them what to do. If Wyoming needs revenue, let it fill in Jackson Hole by turning it into a landfill. That would just encourage more people to vacantion in the Adirondaks.
The hundreds of thousands of people who've moved to the Sunbelt would beg to disagree. Most of them probably are kicking themselves for not having moved years earlier.
I never give beggars anything. They should learn to support themselves.
I doubt that the Third Avenue barn was on the National Register, though, nor was it likely to have been covered by any preservation ordinance. Also, the owner of the Thunderbolt had explicitly refused landmark designation. And you're absolutely right - once the buildings department has deemed a structure unsafe, removal is much easier. Landmark or no, if the private owner won't maintain it, the government is not obligated to do so.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
>>>Also, the owner of the Thunderbolt had explicitly refused landmark designation.
And this the same owner who later complained about the demolition of the Thunderbolt.
-cordially,
turnstiles
Correct. It's debatable whether or not the Thunderbolt would have been deemed eligible anyway, but one of the C.I. preservation groups had offered to do the application on his behalf; he wasn't interested. Given the number of changes that had been made to it over the years (and the amount of reconstruction it would have required to make it operational again) obtaining landmark status was probably no better than a 50-50 shot.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Anon_e_mouse:
Oh well, the Cyclone still soldiers on.
-cordially,
turnstiles
Archetectural Preservationists should work to raise funding for their projects. but don't ask me for anything because MY efforts and donations go EXCLUSIVELY to OPERATNG rail museum projects. (track, cars and locomotives)
I do some of both. I got my first taste of hands-on historic preservation when I became involved in the fight to save Poughkeepsie's historic City Hall in 1973 and the ex-NYC railroad station at Poughkeepsie in 1974. Both of these battles, fortunately, were successful; had we lost the fight to save the railroad station, today's hordes of commuters would have just an unattended shelter to wait in. I've also been part of some less-successful efforts in North Carolina. Now I do my part by owning and living in a house built somewhere between 1690 and 1768 (I think 1756 is the most credible date) that looks much as it did after an extensive renovation in 1937. We'll be returning the exterior to a closer resemblance to its 1850 appearance (after the "new" section was added - built around 1810 as a separate house, it was moved and attached to the older structure around 1850) either this year or next when we replace the existing roof with a standing-seam metal one. The interior will still be closer to 1937, however.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I only work on locomotives, rolling stock, track and shops for OPERATING museums NO STATIONS, not now, not ever. Good thing you saved Poughkeepsie though, 'Mouse.
You guys have missed an important point: The owner didn't want the 'Thunderbolt' landmarked for the simple reason that he was in negotiations with another amusement park owner to disassemble the 'Thunderbolt' so it could be moved to a new (out of state) location. Obviously, landmarking the rollercoaster would have meant an end to his plans.
The Mayor got his way -- as usual -- with strong-arm tactics.
BMTman
BMTman:
Ah! Now that is beginning to make sense - I was not aware of that. Which amusement park was this, by the way?
And yes, our illustrious mayor certainly made his presence.
-cordially,
turnstiles
turnstiles: I don't recall, but I'll have to see if I still have the local Brooklyn newspaper that had this front-page story (it was a big piece).
BMTman
BMTman:
Thanks!
-cordially,
turnstiles
Most interesting - especially the portion about Penn Station. Thanks!
-cordially,
turnstiles
Good point.
Since the tower was NYCT PROPERTY, they could do whatever they want with it, irregardless of the structure having some kind of 'landmark status'. If the structure is in the way of 'progress' as they see fit, well then you're likely to hear the famous 'TIMBER!' yell at some point.
Sad but true...
BMTman
The tower on the 3 between Junius and Pennsylvania will be gone in a few weeks, too.
I can see that tower from my window. I got to start getting the pics going since I missed the NL tower.
Train#1988Mike
Has heypaul ever mentioned anything to you about wanting a tower to go along with his motorman's cab?:-)
Yeah, and he also mumbled something once about getting his fellow tenants evicted so he could take over their apartments, finish building a complete R-9 car, install an interlocking, and a full-scale replica of a section of the Fulton Street/8th Avenue four-track line....I thought you were aware of his "master plan". ;-)
BMTman
PSSST...PSST, Over here, yea you. I got a sign box for 'ya ... Cheap
Peace,
ANDEE
The only other thing I was aware of was heypaul's desire to put that steam engine in Jersey (IIRC) someone mentioned a while ago in his apartment.
Right now, I'm still picturing his rapid scrolling text and am still snickering.
No you have it all wrong, his next project will be a Greyhound ... not the dog ! It will be a scenic cruiser or at least as much as will fit into his bed room.
Mr t__:^)
Midday Thursday & Friday they're turning half the Fs at Church ave. Most crews don't even realize, signs are set to CI, even announce "next stop Ditmas" while the station PA says "train out of service." They used the departure lights when the trains were leaving. At one point a train wrong-railed onto the express track (OOS).
While walking around Brooklyn Heights in the snowstorm Saturday taking pictures for
www.forgotten-ny.com
I noted that the BMT subway entrance at Clinton and Montague was again sporting a pair of old-fashioned green and white 'Subway' lamps. I am aware that, during the 70s when I was going to school (St. Francis College) there, they were among the last holdouts with those old signs, likely protected by the eternal scaffolding of St. Anns Church. Of course they eventually succumbed.
Are the ones there presently the originals, or are they clever reproductions?
It would be very interesting to see if those subway lamps are actually the originals not reproductions. If they are the originals it would be great to see that at least another piece if history was saved and is still in use at the same time.
BMTJeff
Does anyone know what is located at 215 Montague Street? I'm very interested in knowing. Long ago it used to be the ticket headquarters of the old Brooklyn Dodgers, and I can still hear Red Barber and Connie Desmond tell us we can get out tickets by mail at that address. If anyone knows, let me know.
It's a large branch for EAB (European American Bank).
BTW, you might like to know that a bronze plaque is on the outside of the building that features text and an image of both Ebbett's Field and Jackie Robinson, and mentioning that the home office for The Brooklyn Dodgers was located at that site.
If I get the chance, I'll take a picture for the benefit of those who would like to see it.
BMTman
Thanks Doug! And by all means, please take the picture. I would love to see it.
#4 Sea Beach Fred:
I agree with you that it would be very interesting to see what is located at 215 Montague St. I believe by reading the message thread the it is presently an EAB bank branch. BTW I have some MP3 files of the organ on the B&B Carousell.
BMTJeff
I would SUSPECT that they are not originals, since the four that are in place are extremely vulnerable to vandalism...
www.forgotten-ny.com
That won't stop me from posting them on Forgotten, since they are very good likenesses, if that's what they are.
It would be very interesting to see if those subway lamps are actually the originals not reproductions. If they are the originals it would be great to see that at least another piece if history was saved and is still in use at the same time.
BMTJeff
I've actually taken pictures of them and it's on my website (www.zdeno.com) under the Borough Hall BMT section.
I believe their reproductions...
-Harry
Well, everyone knows about the F running express in Brooklyn tonight and Tuesday night because of construction on the elevated portion. What few (if any) have mentioned is the G will be running a shuttle from Bed-Nost to Hoyt because of not being able to use the local tracks at Smith-9. The thing is, they can (or once could) turn trains at Bergen st upper level, and if the lower platform was open they could simply transfer to the F there. While writing this I realized that Bergen st tower was probably responsible for that switch, so its useless as well, but it doesn't make sense that switches are still useless after a fire that occurred almost 2 years ago.
They could also build switches from express to local befor Carroll St, run F to Bergen St lower level, then switch to local, G could permanently terminate at Bergen upper level not interfering with F operations.
Arti
what is easier to access , the Bergen Street Upper Level or lower level platform from the street entrences, , one would have to consider which line is used more. The F in this case. also a question reguarding that area. after leaving the bergen street station, does the G rise up and over the F tracks to go into Hoyt/Schmrn.
The track connection from G exists only to local tracks (upper level),
so there are not too many options here.
Arti
AFAIK the F tracks are on top at that monstrosity of a flying junction at Smith and Schermerhorn. Not sure how the A/C and G tracks are intertwined, although the former seem to ramp down into Hoyt-Schermerhorn after leaving Jay St. The Court St. stub tracks are at the bottom.
It would be quite difficult to construct a switch from the lower level (of Bergen Street) to the upper level tracks in time to service Carroll Street ... the tracks are never at the same level until just south of the Carroll Street station! However, these out-of-service switches at Bergen Street (there are 6 of them ... 2 for the upper-level south-end cross-over, 2 for the lower-level south-end cross-over, and the 2 at the junction of the upper- and lower-level tracks at the north end) should be repaired, if for no other reason, to accomodate GO service adjustments.
Speaking of Bergen Street, why didn't they put those little black caption tiles on the station wall when they renovated the station several years back?
- Lyle Goldman
Probably to save a buck or two. 8-)
Peace,
ANDEE
How do you cut a R-46/44 or a LIRR Mu?
Is cutting a C3 trainset similar? Anyone have experience doing so?
I'll explain the R44/46. I have no clue about MU's.
1) Take down any springs/gates.
2) Place reverser in the forward position and place controller in the emergency position.
3) Take the vapor key, activate the cutting panel by turning it to "on" with the key, then depress the uncouple button.
4) Charge the train.
5) Release the brakes and place the controller in "switching" (keep the reverser in forward). Buff the coupler by momentarily placing forward pressure on the coupler. Move the controller then to "coast", train will then back up off the coupler of the adjoining train and the cut will be made. A slightly different method is used if cutting uphill.
6) Dump the train, place the controller in the "handle off" position and normal the cutting panel by turning the vapor key to off.
I know it's a stupid question but what do the signs that say "W" on the Oyster Bay line mean? Also I notice there appears to be a signal light by the grade crossings. What does that mean?
'Whistle'
-Hank
I guess whistle for a grade crossing.
Announce future transfer to W train extension into Long Island.
--Mark
CP Rail just delivered 6431-6435 to Fresh Pond Yard
Shawn.
What time was that this morning?
Mike told me he heard diesel horn blasts close to midnight last night, so there might have been some movements at Linden yard.
BMTman
It was around 4 AM.
Shawn.
Thanks, Shawn. I will be on the lookout for more 142s as they arrive tonight.
-Stef
Then I think that what was heading down to Linden via the Bay Ridge line at 7:45pm this evening.
Train#1985Mike
Arrived at 9:41PM on Track M, north of Jackson Avenue with Loco 68, RD334 (R-15), and Loco 63 heading up the consist. 6435-34-33-32-31 were trailing with Loco 901 to bring up the end. Out from Linden Yard, up to the East they go!
-Stef
was i surprised a little while ago, when i looked out the window and saw bmtman, with a sewer cover pulling hook, yanking sewer covers from in front of my building...
when i asked him if he were either crazy or recently appointed to a long sought job with the department of environmental protection, he said no... instead he claimed to have found a rare document that had been mislaid inside the recently demolished east new york tower... said document reveals plans in the early part of this century to build a transcontinental underground railroad linking the sheepshead bay racetrack with the west coast santa anita racetrack... rumor has it that it was actually started in 1910 and about 2 miles of it were constructed before the great crash of 1911... if he succeeds in unearthing this tunnel, bmtman hopes to follow in the footsteps of a fellow brooklynite with the same last name...
bmtman hopes to follow in the footsteps of a fellow brooklynite with the same last name...
Jumpman? Who changed his name to Mario after his adventures with Donkey Kong and went on to save the Princess several times.
Much too early in the AM for such humor ... LOL just the same.
Mr t__:^)
You have been the innocent victim of BMTmans campagion of desinformatiom. He, BMTman is snatching those manhole covers, to be use in a new joint venture with Great Rays Pizza and International House of Pancakes. The product, BMTmans secret receipe for giant waffel peppproni mushroom pizza will utilize the manhole covers to imprint the waffel/pizza with a unique New York LOGO for backward tourist.
Free delivery available upon request.
avid
Article from NY Post on condition on Penn Tunnel escape stairways
DIZZY
Peace,
ANDEE
I gotta get me a job in the NY Press ....
--Mark
Are the TA's under-river tunnels any better?
From what I've heard and seen, MUCH better. But not perfect
Peace,
ANDEE
It's inexcusable that such a situation exists. I think the MTA should purchase the tunnels and get it done.
How can we put money before safety??
Easily, its done all the time. To be 100% safe would cost an infinite amount of money.
How can we put money before safety??
Like it or not, everything has a price, everything has a risk. If we lived in a totally-risk free world it would be so bland, so boring, that I personally don't think life would be worth living. At the time the tunnels were constructed that was an acceptable exit strategy, and in many respects it still is. What are the chances of a disaster occurring in the tunnels where such an escape route - even one with ten-wide staircases with landings - would make a difference? Infinitesimally small. Better to invest the money in reducing the risk of such a problem, as far as I am concerned.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
ATTENTION SUBTALKERS:
The Port Authority has scheduled four public hearings on its proposed toll and PATH fare congestion-pricing plan.
The public hearings will begin on January 16. They will be held at the following locations and times:
· January 16: 10 a.m. to 2 p.m., 1 World Trade Center, Oval Room, 43rd Floor, Manhattan.
· January 16: 5 p.m. to 9 p.m., Hudson County Administration Building Annex, Freeholders Chamber, 567 Pavonia Ave., 3rd Floor, Jersey City.
· January 17: 5 p.m. to 9 p.m., College of Staten Island, Williamson Theater, 2800 Victory Boulevard, Staten Island.
· January 18: 5 p.m. to 9 p.m., Holiday Inn, 283 Route 17 South, Hasbrouck Heights.
The Port Authority Board of Commissioners on December 14, 2000 authorized hearings on the proposed toll and fare structure. Following the hearings, the Board will make a formal recommendation to the Governors of New York and New Jersey.
------
I encourage you to show up at the hearing and present your feelings, criticisms ideas etc.
I personally would like the PA to standardize the fare around the prevailing MTA fare and modify all PATH faregates to accept the Metrocard. Also, the PA could sell Metrocards for passengers who not only will use it on PATH but will board MTA trains as well.
The use of Metrocards will allow the future possibility of discounted transfers between the two subway systems.
Let's hope it does bring some kind of regional fare. As I was looking at the fare proposal chart in today's paper that was my first thought. It does seem as though the PATH proposals are leaning that way. Yes it will be $2, but that is only for a one-way fare. Round-trips, 10 trip, and 20 trip cards all are $1.50 per trip. That could be tha initial step in a regional fare including PATH, MTA, and HBLR.
(Yes it will be $2, but that is only for a one-way fare. Round-trips, 10 trip, and 20 trip cards all are $1.50 per trip. That could be tha initial step in a regional fare including PATH, MTA, and HBLR.)
The problem is, if NYC signs a new lease renewing control of JFK and LaGuardia for the Port Authority, the PATH fare will once again, and permanently, be lower than the NYC subway fare.
The way in which the mayor is dealing with the PA the airport lease renewals are not a given. How does that affect the PATH fare proposals, anyway?
(The way in which the mayor is dealing with the PA the airport lease renewals are not a given. How does that affect the PATH fare proposals, anyway?)
JFK and LaGuardia make big profits. Until the 1989-93 recession, bi-state transportation (ie. the bus terminal, PATH, the bridges and tunnels) also made a profit or broke even. In effect, drivers subsidized transit riders for giving up a share of the road. That was more or less "fair." The Port Authority has proposed a big time airport access system and other improvements, using the airport profits and a passenger facility charge.
But the recession hit all the governments in the region. The MTA was forced to cut service, cancel a plan to replace subway cars on a regular (150 to 200 per year) basis (causing the current car shortage), raise tolls to $7.00 round trip, and raise the transit fares to $1.50.
Meanwhile, the Port Authority kept the PATH fare at $1.00 after 1987 (a huge decline when adjusted for inflation) and kept the tolls at $4.00. Bistate transportation started running huge deficits -- in fact the Lincoln Tunnel lost money last year -- so the Port Authority cancelled many of the improvements promised to New York and used the profits from the New York airports to keep the fares and tolls low instead. Note how the PA is not doing anything about transit access to LaGuardia, despite collecting the PFC there.
Cuomo didn't object, because he wanted to help his friend Florio, just as Dinkins didn't object when Cuomo suddenly took $1 billion in school aid away from the City to reduce the budget cuts in other parts of the state. They all lost anyway, but the Republicans have gone on screwing New York City.
Well, the airport leases expire in 2015. If the city takes control of the airports, it earns all those big profits (though it is also unlikely to spend them on transportation in New York). New Jersey wants to keep spending money earned in New York in New Jersey.
So the Port Authority is proposing to raise tolls and fares to a level equal to New York, in the hopes that Giuliani's successor will sign a new lease. As soon as the new lease is signed, however, the New Jersey representatives on the Port Authority Board will presumably once again refuse to approve any fare and toll increases.
Well, the airport leases expire in 2015. If the city takes control of the airports, it earns all those big profits (though it is also unlikely to spend them on transportation in New York). New Jersey wants to keep spending money earned in New York in New Jersey.
Basing current policy on something that'll happen 14 years from now sounds sort of dubious. It may well be that usage at the three airports will be a lot lower then, due to increasing Sunbelt migration, and therefore the airports will no longer be cash cows.
Or Sunbelt migration will stop because all of its resources will have become exhausted. Either that or people will come to their senses and would stop moving to a social wasteland.
No, it's the first one.
It seems there was a jumper at 34th Penn today infront of an E
don't we mean 12-9 ??
YES....TYPEING FASTER THEN I WAS THINKING
So that is why an E was sent via B'way. Thought that was odd.
Yesterday, while waiting for a (Q) in the Lexington Av. station, I saw a service notice saying that the (E)(F)(R) trains would be diverted over the weekend of January 13-15. (E)(F) would run via 6th Av, and would stop at "57th St, Lexington Av, Roosevelt Island, 21st St-Queensbridge, and then resume regular service beginning with 36th St". (R) would do the same from 57th St-7th Av.
Perhaps because this is only temporary (full service expected in August?), the MTA made no mention whatever of this being a new routing. Or is it need-to-knowism or incredible modesty? In any case, the route is apparently ready for use. Why then is service not scheduled until August? Is this intended to be a series of test runs?
Bob Sklar
Service is not scheduled until August because the current reroute is due to necessary work in the 53st tunnel. Once 53st is renovated, full service can begin.
-Hank
Sounds like the perfect time for a subtalker round convention. The "E" will be great for railfanning through the 8th Ave/6th Ave junction then through the new connection.
Who's up for it!
avid
DRAT! I'm having a hernia operation Tuesday the 9th, and the doctor said not to expect to do any normal activity for about a MONTH!! That pretty much precludes drinking, subway riding, hiking in Prospect, Inwood, or my personal favorite, Fort Tryon, or anything else that makes life fun.
It would have fun just to see how people react to seeing their Manhattan-bound train stopping at 21st/Queensbridge instead of Queens Plaza. I bet most subway riders have never even heard of the 63rd Street extension, let alone been on it.
Oh well, I've got cable, VCR and the 'net at home- even though the latter is AOL- Always Off Line. Half the time I can't even access Subtalk at home; I keep getting that "Traffic Jam on The Information Superhighway- Try Again Later" screen. I'm spoiled at work, having Windows and being part of a network.
Oh well, better to be out of commission in January than July.
When the Archer Av tunnel opened, a fair number of riders paid no attention to train destination signs and got a look at the new stations (then had to backtrack to get home).
Hope you feel better soon.
A suggestion from one AOL sufferer -- I mean user -- to another: First, log on to AOL. Then, shut down all of those little extra windows that open up inside the main window. Then minimize AOL. Then start IE or Netscape or some other browser of your choice.
In this configuration, AOL functions solely as an ISP. Since all those traffic jam messages originate within the AOL browser software, no more nasty little messages.
Works for me. Try it. (BTW, you can also start the browser first, so long as you start AOL manually before you try to access a web site.)
Good luck on your operation, Mr Fein. I hope all turns out well
Peace,
ANDEE
I think I will be in New York next Sunday (1/14/01). This is a great chance to see what's going on the 63rd Street connection. Glad to see R32s on E trains!
Chaohwa
Every time I visited NYC[such as the past few hoildays]and traveled by train even though we drive down, I ride the subways. Last trip Ipaid a visit to the 36th street station on the QUEENS BLVD LINE and saw the new connection for the first time compleated. nice work Imight add.As most of you could and would agree, seeing this work come to a end can ether bring tears to your eyes or make you jump for joy. 30 years is along time to wait for a subway line to be finished,and within some circled I travel[Capitol District Transit Authority and some others]in ,the 63rd street''tunnel to nowhere'' has made the CITY the laughing stock. I'm not saying that to be rude,BUT coming from a person who's sister lives in QUEENBRIDGE since 1980 outside the 21st station [41 ave-21st]YOU HAD TO WONDER IF AND WHEN THE T.A. WOULD EVER FINISH THIS LINE. IFyou think about it, it's taken the MTA three decades to finish a litle over 3 miles of subway!!! thats 3 quarters of mine and anyone elses live that was born in the 60s!!!! Oh well, I'm glad to see that its over. thanks for listening kameOUT......
Sunday the 14th might be a good day for me and Anon_e_mouse Jr. If anyone wants to plan something we'll try and join up (no promises, though).
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
How does this sound? A Round Robin! Meet at WTC at a mutually agreed upon hour, Take "E" [MUST be R/32 for Flat nosed fans] uptown thru switch from 8th Ave. to 6th ave. uptown via 57th, 63rd tunnel, end at Roosevelt. Reverse to " R " local or "E" or "F" express to Queens bridge and change to "R" downtown to Chambers Street. There Used to be a Pretty good Greek place on the corner of Church and Chambers ST. for the hungry rover. Or start at Roosevelt , meet at door to Hidden Phantom platform, or just inside fair controlas close to control gate as possible. Again at agreed upon Hour. I haven't encountered an "R" train of R/32s in a while,but if someone new what was running and when, the flatnoses woudld be happy.
I would be coming in from L.I. so Roosevelt would be my first choice,but would travelto WTC for food or work, no,no,no, I mean to hook up with the rest, if any.
avid.
Looks like an unofficial fieldtrip!
Chaohwa
Looks like, WTC, 10:00am, on Sunday. Start approx. 10:30 , 10:45 latest.
avid
where in wtc?
Why not meet right in front of OCULUS, the giant eye, which is near where the 2/3 transfer is. You can't miss that.
PS I am thinking of joining in provided my Mom is OK, she's in the hospital and I won't know till tomorrow evening just what is up with her - she is facing some tests.
wayne
I hope all turns out well with your mom.
Peace,
ANDEE
Ditto here. My father underwent quadruple bypass surgery four weeks ago today. He's doing fine now.
Actually, I probably could miss it :-) Remind me exactly where it is - I'll be coming up on the Never and Rarely to Cortlandt Street.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I was just checking the NFL schedule, on espn.com.
Bad news. Both games are on Sunday. The Giant/viking game is at 12:30 on Sunday . Fox network
The Raider /Raven gsme starts at 4:00pm.
Do you think the Round Robin could be reset for Saturday?
It will take me about 2 Hours to Get back to my couch and remote from NYC. I fear, once again I'll be a wus. Please except my apoligies.
I'll go solo on Saterday, starting out at Roosevelt on which ever comes in first. Walk the walk at Chambers, and return to suberbia. My anonymity virtuously remaining in the shadow world.
tempus Edax Rerum
avid
You would actually delay a Subfan adventure for the Giants, who deserted NY for NJ?
Long live the Dallas Cowboys!!
avid... i'd be down for saturday... this way there would be at least two reality challenged people on the trip... contact me on channel 8 on the shadow's special radio telephone...
Mom has her tests tomorrow, lower GI series to find a nasty leak. Her heart's stable, so I will hope for the best.
OK I think Anon_E_Mouse is on board (double check w/ him) for Sunday at 10:15AM at the Chambers-WTC/H&M station mezzanine at the Oculus artwork.
Who is in?
wayne
Yes, I'm on board... anyone else?
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I'm on standby for the replay..
or re-feed.. of
this G.O.
2 to South Ferry G.O. 9/2000.. :)
I stole a poster for it: "(2) (3) (5) Trains rerouted south of 149-Grand Concorse"...etc. It hangs over my TV, right next to "(E) (F) (R) Devíso de los trenes subterráneos que van hacia Queens". The English version hasn't been posted in my station yet, so I'll have to wait a few days before it "falls off". West 4 had a few extra, they'll never miss one...
If I can find it, I'm there! All the best to your mother, Wayne.
See "Pedis Orbis Sufferes"
avid
Is the Sunday trip also still on as well? Hell, I'll try to make both, although I don't usually see 8:30 AM on Saturdays.
TO my knowledge , yes the Sunday trip is still on. The 08:30 hour was picked on Saturdeay because the attendees are Early worms to catch the Pedis Orbis Round Robin. So far , not counting you , there are three travelers set for Saturday, Looking forward to seeing you if you can make it.
avid
Yes, the Sunday trip is on... see the notice in the Upcoming Events. Avid, if you want yours publicized, send Dave an email - he'll put it there too.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Why not meet right in front of OCULUS, the giant eye, which is near where the 2/3 transfer is. You can't miss that.
PS I am thinking of joining in provided my Mom is OK, she's in the hospital and I won't know till tomorrow evening just what is up with her - she is facing some tests.
wayne
Round Robin,
Sunday, January 14,2001
Meet Time Range 10:00 - 10:30 Leave approx 10:45 LATEST! Lets be prompt please, It looks like the Giants will be the early game, with the Ravens traveling to the west coast to meet the Raiders.
Meet at the fare control of the "E" terminus at Chambers Street, the exit furthest south, towards the World Trade Center.
Coming from the "N" or "R" , get off at Cortland ST and walk thru the WTC to the "E" or get off at City Hall/Chambers and walk one block west to Church St and get on "E" . Its one of those times an Unlimited use Metrocard comes in handy.
avid
WTC would be better for us... we'll either come in on PATH or, more likely, across the ferry and up from Whitehall Street. If we get the 9 AM boat we can make WTC around 10:15.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
10:15 sounds good, Perhaps a time range from say 10;00 to 10:45 to allow anyone encountering delays. On Sunday . One thing though, is that the sunday of NO football? If so fine. If not I must press for Saterday. Or check the game time first.
avid
>>......the sunday of NO football? If so fine.
foot-what?
Too bad I won't be aroung for that. I would love to be on a train as it switches from one local track to the other south of W. 4th St. Well, I was on a JFK express once which did so, but because I was in the last car, I didn't see the maneuver.
Its a straight line. Remaining on 6th causes you to diverge, as does remaining on 8th. Crossing between in either direction is perfectly straight.
And for those who haven't seen the poster yet (also one at Times Sq)...
It has a red diamond 63st reroute logo on the upper left side. The WEEKEND graphic is on one line and slightly smaller than the normal ones. The poster specifically mentions no transfers to the 4,5,6,G.
I assume the 63rd st shuttle will also be running for customers going the other way.
When I saw the poster it appeared as if the E and F would go express to Roosevelt after the connector. The sign said: E rerouted W4 to Roosevelt, F rerouted 47/50 to Roosevelt, R rerouted 57st to 36st. Either way you go at Queensbridge, you will end up at Roosevelt.
And to those who said there wouldn't be an R via 63rd G.O., kindly admit I was right and you were wrong.
With E/F/R service through 63rd, they have no choice but to run G trains past Queens Plz that weekend in order to facilitate any kind of service between Queens Plz and the rest of the QB line.
With E/F/R service through 63rd, they have no choice but to run G trains past Queens Plz that weekend in order to facilitate any kind of service between Queens Plz and the rest of the QB line.
Not according the MTA website. They will be providing bus shuttles to 21st St. Also, all trains will be running local between Queens Plaza and Roosevelt.
Judging by the services involved, I'd guess that they are replacing/overhauling the local-express crossover just north of the Queens bound Queens Plaza platform. They did have other options. They could have done the work at night and wrong railed through Queens Plaza. However, the MTA adage appears to be: implementing any service improvements as painful as possible so that passengers will stop demanding them.
Thats a big switch , the local/express and the express/layup. Will the T.A. do the whole anchallata, is that spelled right, or just the express/local set? What about the Queens side westbound switches? Were they done ,or do they need doing at a future date?
avid
the correct spelling is enchilada, for your information.
The switches south of Queens Plaza: looks like work area is set up there too; they even have street-lamp style lights with sodium lamps to illuminate the workarea. There was NO "R" this past Saturday.
wayne
Shuttle bus instead of just running the trains through? It really must be important to them to make the people walk through the long passage as much as possible. Sounds sick to me.
They can't run the G through! If they could, don't you think they'd run the R normal? They're working on the switch east of Queens Plaza. No train can go through Queensbound on either the express or the local track.
Judging by the services involved, I'd guess that they are replacing/overhauling the local-express crossover just north of the Queens bound Queens Plaza platform
Judging by the number of work-lights erected in that tunnel stretch I would tend to agree with you on that. I went through that stretch on an "E" train on Saturday - the G.O. diverting "E" and "F" service to the local track was in effect, but our "E" made a battery run from Roosevelt through to 71st Avenue on the express track. Went at a pretty good clip too.
wayne
The next big project is the replacement of the diamond crossover on the Queens bound tracks leaving Queens Plaza. Supplement schedules go into effect on Monday on the daily schedule to provide increased running time due to a slow speed order due to skeletonised track in the switch area. The TA ain't dumb: the riders will be late, but the trains will be on time!
They won't run full time service till August for a number of reasons. Switch replacement at Queens Plaza, work in the 53rd St. tube, new signals have to be placed into service at Queens Plaza and other stuff which I am not privy to. While this work goes on, 53rd St. service will be diverted on weekends and for a few hours during the overnites to 63rd St.
It's official: MTA New York City Transit has stated that the Manhattan Bridge's structural elements cannot support a crossover track between the north and south sides. Therefore, this cannot serve as an alternative to the extensive reroutes planned.
The TA says it is out of alternatives for the plan.
Other fresh ideas out there? Every reasonable option
deserves to be weighed.
Where were they going to put this track? Diagonally across the auto lanes?
Yes, the proposal was to create a temporary grade crossing with a gate. It was a long shot, and as it turns out, the bridge couldn't support it.
A trial balloon, worth floating for consideration.
If you have other ideas, or if this reminded you of others, please post them.
I proposed that as a joke several weeks ago. It was a completely idiotc idea and I can't believe that anyone has taken it seriously. Perhaps I think too much like the TA & MTA on some issues but why this exercise in futility. Service will be changed for 4 years.If it could have been avoided, the MTA would have avoided it. The costs of implimenting a service change of this magnitude are quite large. On the otherhand they are inevitable. Now, what action do you take? You take the most reasonable action at the most reasonable cost that will give you the most reasonable result. With this plan, just one station out of over 480 is being significantly affected by the bridge closing that's approximately 0.2% if my math is correct.
The real question is do you invest hundreds of millions , if not billions of dollars on a crossing that will be used only a short time (relatively speaking) For that money, the MTA could provide free 'demand' service to the people who use the Grand St. station for the life of the project. Again, the question becomes, "Do you do it because you can or because it makes sense" The TA did not build a parallel line for the franklin shuttle when it was rebuilt. It bit the bullet - or rather the line riders did. Are the people of Chinatown due greater consideration. At least they retain some service - albiet with some minor inconvenience.
I proposed that as a joke several weeks ago. It was a completely idiotc idea and I can't believe that anyone has taken it seriously. Perhaps I think too much like the TA & MTA on some issues but why this exercise in futility.
There are many other policies that the TA & MTA have enacted that equally ludicrous. Placing a grade crossing in the middle of the Manhattan Bridge, complete with crossing gate, is more believable than say trashing half the R32 fleet, while there is a severe car shortage. Of course the proposals have to be taken seriously, the MTA/TA lack any sense of humor - not sadism - just humor.
Service will be changed for 4 years.If it could have been avoided, the MTA would have avoided it.
That's a non-sequitor and not true. The Feds proposed building a grade level merge between the north bridge tracks and Bway and 6th Ave tracks the before the MB overhall started in 1981. This would have provided normal non-rush hour service, while the south bridge tracks were not available. The entire cost for installing this junction would have been funded by the FHWA bridge rehabilitation funds. The MTA/TA and also the NYSDOT objected.
..just one station out of over 480 is being significantly affected by the bridge closing that's approximately 0.2% if my math is correct.
Your math is misleading at best. NYCT services PASSENGERS not stations. A more accurate estimate should be based on the number of passengers affected.
The real question is do you invest hundreds of millions , if not billions of dollars on a crossing that will be used only a short time (relatively speaking)
First off, it's not MTA money - it's FHWA money. Money not spent here gets recycled on some overpass near Plattsburgh or Atlanta. Second, The Chrystie St. Subway of the 1960's resulted in less routing flexibility. This would have provided a no-cost (to the MTA) means to partially remedy this oversight. Third, no highway project can be funded wholely or in part by the federal government, that severs a significant non-motorized transportation link during its construction. I would assume that the Manhattan Bridge coordinators would want to protect their jobs from some litigants who would tie up their funding in the courts for years.
For that money, the MTA could provide free 'demand' service to the people who use the Grand St. station for the life of the project.
Similar services have been provided for other bridge renewel projects.
Do you do it because you can or because it makes sense"
The federal criteria is because you must.
The TA did not build a parallel line for the franklin shuttle when it was rebuilt. It bit the bullet - or rather the line riders did.
The Franklin Shuttle was scheduled for 1 year and was under NYCT supervision. This project will take longer and is beyond the TA's control.
The idea of building a temporary "parallel line" is not without precedent. This was done when the Meeker Ave Highway portion of the BQE was rebuilt in the late 1960's. A temporary 3 lane elevated roadway was first built adjacent to the east side of the BQE. The Queens bound roadway was demolished and replaced followed by the Brooklyn bound roadway. The temporary highway was then removed. This technique maintained traffic flow and doubled the project cost. Nobody objected.
As a dim sum fan, I often find myself on East Broadway. I suppose it's morbid curiosity, but I can't resist looking at all the -- I think of them as lolly collumns -- propping up the bridge. I'm not an engineer, and I know I'm not qualified to make a judgment about the structural integrity of the thing, but it makes me nervous just looking at it.
So, in a way, I'm glad to hear that it was a joke. On the other hand, and I hope you won't take this the wrong way, isn't one Heypaul on this board enough?
So, in a way, I'm glad to hear that it was a joke. On the other hand, and I hope you won't take this the wrong way, isn't one Heypaul on this board enough?
I don't know! Previously, I was told I was too serious. I doubt that i can compete with heypaul's humor but I'd hate to think that I am going to be permanently consigned to reciting facts about subway rolling stock. How about if I cut back on the homor just a bit?
It seems that where the Manhattan Bridge (or at least its trackways) is concerned, there is no such thing as humor. Personally I like the idea of a 10 car train zig-zagging across the roadway :) That long gap in the third rail would be brutal though - especially going upgrade!
Happy New Year!
Gerry
That long gap in the third rail would be brutal though - especially
going upgrade!
After much thought, I have arrived at a solution to the long gap: a retractable third rail that pops up from the road surface as the crossing gate goes down.
Hey, what's up with the Manhattan Bridge? With all the talk of the work on Stillwell I haven't heard much of the Manny B lately. Have they finally decided what trains are going to run on the south side now, or is that decision still far off? I was under the impression that the decision on this would be rendered by the first of this year.
The bridge flip happens in July, I believe. The Q will be back on Braodway, where it belongs (IMHO, of course)running as a circle (Brighton local) and diamond (Brighton express) along with the W, which is really the Broadway/West End B (or T.) The Sixth Ave B and D will be cut back to 34th St.
:) Andrew
And I suppose that leaves the Sea Beach off the bridge permanently, is that it? Well, I'm not to happy with that. Why was a W or a T train added to the mix anyway?
Something had to run on the West End. You are lucky that they still have the N as a trunk line. It should be a shuttle at night instead of the B/T?W or R
People became colorblind since the 80's and can't tell the difference between orange and yellow Bs. So they need different letters.
BTW: The N may still end up on the bridge nights and weekends, capacity opens up and 2 lines for the downtown stops aren't necessary outside business hours.
And when the bridge is fully fixed the N and Q will probably do the bridge, with that W running the Astoria/B'wy local to Whitehall (you know, what they planned on doing).
Maybe the N or W will become the peak direction express on the Astoria line (this could happen even before the swap).
How would you make those hardly listening to annocements to distinquish between "yellow" and "orange" "B-s."
Probably the study showed that different letters, perhaps, are easyer to understand for gen. public?!
Arti
Henry, that is music to my ears. Too bad you don't work for the TA so you can put in a good word. I hate it that the Sea Beach doesn't go over the bridge after canal street but rather runs the gamaut into the bowels of Manhattan. That is a boring ride
A lot of "idiotic" ideas have resulted in benefits to society, either because it turned out that they were not so idiotic in the first place, or because thinking about them led to insights which produced a different, but much more do-able, and original idea.
Do yourself a favor - if what I'm detecting in your post is a little arrogance, try to tone it down - you never know what you might miss with the blinders on.
Again, why not a connection just west of the conversion from bridge structure to cut and cover, and dig out and build a simple, no frills tunnel connecting the south side (BMT) tracks with the North Side (IND) tracks?
I'd estimate it would be less than 500' of tunneling, and more in the area of 400' I would say. It just has to tunnel under the 3 lane roadway.
Of course, traffic would be disrupted, but I think heavy rail should be a priority in this city. You could still have the Manhattan Bridge's upper level lanes for traffic.
A simple, NON-flying junction connection. At least with this plan, the Bridge still gets repaired, service remains the same on the IND, and maybe even put the Q up Broadway.
:)
No room. There isn't enough space to build the tunnel in that location. Additionally, the shap turn into Grand Street prohibits a switch or crossover in the area (or else they could have kept the BMT connected all this time)
-Hank
I looked at the location several times over the years, both the North and South sides, and I'd disagree with you in terms of room.
If you are referring to a scissors crossover, that could be placed on the surface structure of the South (BMT) side of the bridge, at the surface transistion point.
With regard to the two curves once the tunnel commences, the general track layout would permit this connection, if you try to picture the area in a three-dimensional aspect, you should be able to see the lay up and connection being feasible.
By room, I mean vertically.
-Hank
I suggested a few days ago that a cross TUNNEL be dug from a point just under the surface from the south side approx. 300 - 400' feet long to the IND connection, under the 3 lane roadway. No fancy flyovers or flying junctions, but a connection a la the BMT Myrtle-Broadway connection.
This is a can-do connection, and could even be upgraded in the future to be a flying crossover.
Actually, that is a nice idea, but MTA may not be able to accomplish it in time due to the various activities which are required before a shovel goes in the ground.
Of course, there is one other possibility: If the NYC Dept of Transportation agreed to delay the flip-flop for repairs while MTA built a new subway connection, would that be worth the millions per day we taxpayers would pay to have repair crews and contractors waiting until they get the go-ahead? (This is a long-shot trial balloon also. I expect most of you will consider it ridiculous).
Years ago, an underground connection was made in Manhattan from the then-northside Broadway tracks to what were then the Nassau Loop-connected southside tracks, establishing the connection to Broadway now under (hopefully) final repair. These tracks paralleled each other for some distance so the connection was able to be made. The distance involved was probably no more than 100 to 200 feet of new track, I'd guess. That's what allowed the northside tracks to become the Christie St. connection.
My recollection is that a similar situation exists between those northside and southside tracks, once underground in Manhattan, that might allow the southside tracks to have a similar connection to the northbound tracks before they turn north to Christie St. Again, the distance for construction should only be100 to 200 feet.
With review of the historical information on the earlier track changes, both in terms of time to construct, disruption (if an) to surface traffic and cost, it should be possible to use those data to estimate the feasibility, time, and cost, to provide a connection from the southside tracks to Christie St.
If this is going to be a four-year project where the northside tracks will be out of commission, then what I propose, if it have excessive cost, may be a way to avoid the problem.
Here's another possibility: establish a frequent express shuttle bus connection between the Christie St. and Canal St. stations, to bring people who would use Christie St. directly to Canal St. to get Brooklyn-bound trains. That could be a low-cost sopution that would reasonably satisfy the many disgruntled riders.
Mike Rothenberg
I like your way of thinking. Even if MTA's current plan goes through, it's still worth doing...
This is simply an observation I have noticed over at the Dyre Avenue line.
I am wondering if some extra R62A's were sent over to the line. It appears that everytime I see a train pass on the trestle that intersects my street, it is a consist made up of R62A's. I am not near enough to read the car numbers.
I do know that the line was all redbird until a few years ago when OPTO started in the evenings. That's when the line received 2 10-car sets and 1 5-car set from the Pelham line. If you go between cars, the bulkhead signs still read (6). Anyway, I was just wondering if some more trains were being transferred over to the (5) since there are a few R-142/142A's running on the (6). Or maybe they are just using the R62A's they presently have for more runs.
Is there a method to rotate the cars on a line so that they all receive the same amount of wear and tear?
The reason I ask is for an anecdote of mine. I remember in college I used to work for the school by driving the intercampus shuttle. When I was made dispatcher, I was instructed to rotate the vans so that they would all get their fair share of use and mileage. At the time, we had vans that looked like they went through a war (after less than two years of use-the vans were on a 2 year lease) and others that had plush carpeting, velvet seats, A/C and tinted glass. My fellow students always wanted to drive the fancy vans naturally, but the transportation director said that all the vehicles needed to be equally used. Thanks.
I know that at least one set of either R62s or R62As have run on the #5 for at least a couple years now, especially during the rush hour. Maybe that is the train you saw. However, if u start seeing lots of R62As on there, then you may have a different situation...even though I've never heard that idea happening. -Nick
The late night shuttle on the Dyre Avenue Shuttle uses R62A cars from the 6 Line. Those cars were probably just put together for AM rush and returned back to the 6 after. What time did you see this?
Metrorail Article in Phila. Inquirer
Sometimes I wonder whether people have forgotten how to do simple arithmetic. The article says that an estimated 50,000 per day will use the proposed line. It says, however, that the pols can't figure out where to find $30 million per year for operating costs. 52 weeks per year x 5 work days per week x 50,000 round trips per day = 13 million round trips per year. A fare of $2.50 per round trip will cover the operating expense with a little something left over for a rainy day.
I could be wrong, but I think the $30 million is the projected subsidy the line will need (ie operating expenses less fares).
I was at the Fulton Street station yesterday. A train pulls in on the northbound track. It was a train of R142A cars. I then notice a train of R142A cars arriving on the southbound track. The lead car of that train was 7271. All the signs on the train were blank. The train stopped and the doors opened. Inside, the interior signs were also blank. I then assumed that this was the train to Bowling Green. (Unusual phrase, isn't it?) I took this train to Bowling Green and got off. I saw another train of R62A cars on the northbound track, which I got a picture of. I waited a few minutes and saw 7271-7280 pull into the station, hold with the doors closed for a minute, and leave. Strange, isn't it?
Rob, the bullets you are attempting to display have been replaced by the FortuneCity logo.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
What should be there is the following:
I was at the Fulton Street station yesterday. A train pulls in on the northbound track. It was a train of R142A cars. I then notice a train of R142A cars arriving on the southbound track. The lead car of that train was 7271. All the signs on the train were blank. The train stopped and the doors opened. Inside, the interior signs were also blank. I then assumed that this was the train to Bowling Green. (Unusual phrase, isn't it?) I took this train to Bowling Green and got off. I saw another train of R62A cars on the northbound track, which I got a picture of. I waited a few minutes and saw 7271-7280 pull into the station, hold with the doors closed for a minute, and leave. Strange, isn't it?
If you have the Bahn 3.58 or 3.59 Train Simulator, I've just completed a upgraded A Division Layout which simulates service for after the R142 Deliveries.
If interested in a copy of this layout, please e-mail me at tlogan@transitalk.com, and I'll e-mail you a copy of the layout!
Happy New Years to All!
Regards,
Trevor Logan
www.transitalk.com
with real nyct cars
WCBS FM is doing a "Subway Brown Bag" ... am listening to Petula doing "Downtown" right now.
Mr t__:^)
According to today's Newsday, the driver got impatient. When she arrived at the crossing there were four cars in front because the gates were down in anticipation of an E/B train. That train passed and the gates came up. The first two cars went over the tracks before the gates came down again in anticipation of the W/B train that ultimately struck the car. When the gates went down the second time she was now third in line. She backed up, pulled around the two cars in front of her and proceeded around the gates.
The driver's record----one summons for failing to obey a traffic control device. Involved in a collision, when another driver suffered a fatal heart attack and crashed his car into hers. Not charged. License suspended due to unpaid traffic tickets. Another summons for not obeying a traffic control device.
The article goes on to quote a friend "he wouldn't ride with her because she was a very aggressive driver".
While we can all feel sympathy for her family, the other victim who leaves a baby behind, and the third passenger who is in critical condition and the LIRR engineer who has to live with this nightmare for a long time, at least one very aggresive driver is off the road before she has a chance to cause anymore injuries or fatalities. She gave herself quite a 20th Birthday present !
See what STUPIDITY gets ya?
True I feel very bad for the passengers, but not for the driver. Better she checks out than check out another innocent driver. Good riddance.
I feel this confirms the 'idiot' label from a previous thread. Of course, where can we get the source info from?
-Hank
Of course the damage to the LIRR train could easilly run in the 10s of thousands of dollars. Who is responsible? Of course the MTA would never sue the family. In the Newsday article (a real tearjerker) the girl lost everything when her family apartment burnt to the ground. Of course I don't know what that's like but then again that was a 2000 Honda Accord she played demolition derby with (9 years newer than mine). Questions, questions, questions. Oh well, with all due grief, I did feel somewhat safer out on the road today.
Presumably the LIRR would proceed against the insurance company under the property damage portion of her policy. Then sue her estate, which is probably zilch or less than zilch, for the balance. Then John Q Taxpayer makes up the difference.
Isn't that what liability insurance is for??
Considering minimum liability coverage in this state, I doubt that it will make much of a difference. When you start adding up the costs, you begin to realize the emormity of the financial losses in an incident like this. Besides, would the MTA go after the estate?
The MTA probably wouldn't go after the estate because there probably isn't much in there. This was a 19 year old girl. Based on what Newsday said and my experience as a CPA, perhaps the girl had some clothes, jewelry and a few bucks in the back. The car now has only scrap value. If the auto had collision insurance, those funds would first go to the loan company as the secured creditor. It would probably cost the MTA more in legal fees to get whatever little she had.
Also according to Newsday a burial fund was set up by a local charity for the victims of the accident. Funeral Costs were estimated at $5,000. I doubt the girl had any assets if a funeral fund has to be set up.
Note: I do not know the victim or her family, nor am I employed by the MTA. The above is just speculation based on experience.
10-1 Mommy or Daddy really owned the car.
-Hank
Does anyone know that you're never supposed to drive through a railroad crossing when the gates are down and when the gates are coming down. If I drive through a railroad crossing I'll even check for trains even if the gates are up and then I'll cross. Another way to help prevent tragedies is to set up the crossing gates in such a way that there is no room to cross the tracks when the gates are lowered. One way is to have the "four quadrant" railroad crossing gates which would be two sets of double gates or to have single gates long enough to extend all the way across the roadway. This way it would be almost impossible to defeat them.
BMTJeff
They purposely don't use 4-quadrant gates because they would trap people who were not clear of the tracks when the gates began coming down. This happens way more often than people intentionally trying to go around the gates.
You can't physically compensate 100% for people's carelessness or stupidity.
Set up the gates so that the right hand side gate as the driver faces it comes down first and then the gate on the other side comes down.
BMTJeff
Set up the gates so that the right hand side gate as the driver faces it comes down first and then the gate on the other side comes down.
OK, but then you'd need some way to make sure the track isn't fouled before the second gate comes down. The law saws you're not supposed to start to cross a track until you can see your way clear to get to the other side, but people do it all the time. They sometimes stop right on the tracks or close to them. I'm amazed there aren't more grade crossing collisions than there are now.
You can have a sensor placed to that if something is fouling the track the gate will not come down and the there will be a red signal for the train. But the signal has to be quite some distance away from the crossing to allow enough time for the train to stop before it reaches the crossing and this could be very difficult if a freight train is involved. There probably will never be a 100% foolproof system to prevent people from trying to cross the tracks when their not supposed to but better systems should be used to help discourage people from trying to cross railroad tracks when a train is too near for them to cross safely. Better systems will result in fewer people getting killed at railroad crossings. In all, an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.
BMTJeff
People have been fooling with 4 quadrant gates for a while, and not really getting anywhere. My favorite approaches (aside from eliminating crossings, which takes big bucks):
- Medians in the road, which prevent you from pulling around the gate (you'd have to go over the median, which would be pretty high)
- Photo enforcement. When the gates are down, if you go around them, the camera will see you and you will get a ticket.
It seems like use of these two could cut down incidents a lot.
I like those measures! Nice ideas - and the median is not very expensive to implement.
David McCabe:
Those are two very good ideas. With the median it would be almost impossible for someone to attempt to cross the tracks while the gates are down. This would also save lives. Photo enforcement would also be a help.
BMTJeff
Although the accident last week and the famous van accident in 1982 are fresh in people's mind I don't think too many railroad crossing accidents are caused by people crossing downed gates to beat a train. I would think most accidents are caused by people stuck on the tracks behind traffic.
Have you compiled statistics to back that assertion up? I would tend to disagree, but am prepared to be wrong.
In any case, a RR crossing is like a controlled intersection. A driver is not supposed to enter the intersection immediately behind other traffic if it is likely he/she will block the intersection as lights are changing (but being a cop, you already know that). I realize that may be a bit difficult at a RR crossing, esp. one where the tracks curve, so you can't see the appraching train.
I realize that may be a bit difficult at a RR crossing, esp. one where the tracks curve, so you can't see the approaching train.
It's not difficult at all. You simply don't stop on the tracks, period. I know of no jurisdiction where stopping on the tracks is legal under any circumstances. But many wanna-be Darwin Award winners do it every day.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Hello all,
Periodically I like to test my mind and figure out to myself how the subway could run if something were to happen, even though I'm just an ordinary citizen and subway fan. This includes cutting routes in half, rerouting trains, etc.
This is a little brainteaser for you, asking this question: If you were in charge of routing trains for the Transit Authority, what would you do if this were to happen?
I MUST STRESS BEFOREHAND THAT THIS IS JUST AN IMAGINARY SCENARIO, AND THAT THIS IS NOT A SCHEDULED SERVICE CHANGE.
Here's the scenario:
The Montague Street Tunnel must be closed in both directions for two whole weeks for trackwork. In effect this closes, at the least, the Court Street and Lawrence Street BMT stations. You are asked to reroute the M, N and R trains.
Again, this scenario is imaginary.
If this WERE to happen, then what would you do? (Frankly, I can't figure this out myself!! LOL)
- Jose
End lower Brooklyn M service.
Run the N with the Q and W via Manhattan Bridge, and local through Fourth Ave, Brooklyn. Terminate the R at Whitehall St. Run a shuttle between 36th and 95th Sts Brooklyn.
Or not. Just thinking out loud.
:-) Andrew
Before the planned Man. Bridge flip-flop:
M shortlined between Metropolitan Av and Chambers St.
N to operate two services. One between Astoria and Whitehall St and the other between Queensbridge and Coney Island via 6th Avenue. Supplement schedule would go into effect on the Q line to avoid logjams at 21 St.
R to be rerouted via 6th Avenue Express & Manhattan Bridge to DeKalb Av.
Second N service from Coney Island to Court St via 4th ave, using crossover North of Lawrence to enable use of both tracks at Court. Temporary free transfer between Bowling Green and Whitehall stations.
The Brooklyn natives wouldn't like that. It would be a two seat ride into Manhattan under that plan. That and you would overcrowd the B & R lines during rush hour when all the N people from the Sea Beach portion get off as well as the same lines for the reverse commute.
Court & Lawrence are two minor stations as far as patronage compared to Manhattan service. I'd temporarily close them. For Court, transfer at Pacific for the 2/3/4/5 to Borough Hall, for Lawrence take the 2/3 to Hoyt St.
Assuming the MB Bway tracks are in operation, they could run the N/R over them, run the W (and/or some Rs) to Whitehall, route the M through the Chrystie connection to the 6 Av line and terminate the J/Z at Broad. This would keep the Manhattan transfers available. In Brooklyn: Brighton and West End would terminate at DeKalb or Pacific; a shuttle could run to Court St if desired (single-tracking between Court & Lawrence). The connection to Manhattan would be via the bridge service at DeKalb or Pacific, the IRT at Atlantic, or Jay St/Nevins. If the bridge is capable of the loading, Brighton & West End could continue over it during peak times. Run additional F service that folks within range of it can take that instead of Brighton or Sea Beach
1) Dont run any M trains into Brooklyn. All trains terminate at Chambers
2) R Shuttle from 95th to 59th.
3) N trains in two parts:
a) from Coney Island to 21St/Queensbridge via 4th Av Local/6 Av Express
b) from Astoria to Canal St via Broadway Local
4) No Q service at all. Make every other D train in peak directions (AM to Manhattan, PM to Coney Island) run express.
That would have the B, D and N over 6th ave express, and the R on broadway local. This is very much like the plan that they had a few months ago (July/August) Where they were
When they were fixing the tracks at Whitehall Street, they had City Hall, Cortlandt, Rector, Whitehall, Court and Laurence Street Stations Closed all weekend. There is close enough service for these areas by other lines:
City Hall: 2/3 Park Place, 6 Brooklyn Bridge
Cortlandt St: E to WTC, A/C to Chambers, 2/3 Park Place, 1/9 Cortlandt St.
Rector: Cortlandt St is close to Rector St, also Rector on 1/9
Whitehall: 1/9 South Ferry, 4/5 Bowling Green
Court St: 2/3/4/5 Boro Hall
Laurence St: 2/3 Hoyt, A/C/F Jay St-Boro Hall.
Assuming the north tracks of the Manhattan Bridge are still closed I'd re-route the R trains to the 6th Ave line. M trains would operate Between Metro. Ave and Broad Street during rush hours and between Metro. Ave and Bway-Myrtle Ave all other times. I'd add a couple of extra train to the N line. Southbound N trains would terminate at Whitehall Street.
In Brooklyn I'd provide shuttle bus service from DeKalb Ave. to serve Court and Lawrence Street Stations.
Wayne
>>>Again, this scenario is imaginary. <<<
Need to know if this includes the Manhattan Bridge being completely open, partially open and if so what side?
Peace,
ANDEE
All M trains terminate at Chambers rush hours and middays. The R operates from 95th to 36th Street at all times and the N from Coney Island to Pacific Street at all times making express stops on 4th Avenue at all times. There would also be N service from Astoria to Whitehall Street at all times and R service from 71st Avenue to Canal Street at rush hours and middays making local stops. The G would run to 71st Avenue at all times except nights to make up for R service on Queens Boulevard. Additional cars would run on the B, D, and Q to handle the additional crowds. The B51 bus would be extended to Pacific Street and paper transfers would be insinuated for free travel from Pacific Street in Brooklyn to City Hall in Manhattan via the B51 bus. Passengers would be asked to use the A, C, E, F, 2, 3, 4, and 5 as alternates.
Here's the scenario:
The Montague Street Tunnel must be closed in both directions for two whole weeks for trackwork. In effect this closes, at the least, the Court Street and Lawrence Street BMT stations. You are asked to reroute the M, N and R trains.
Just two weeks? First get permission from NYC DOT to open both sides of the Manhattan Bridge for the 2 week period.
Run the N over the south side of the Bridge. Have people taking the M transfer at Canal.
Break the M and R into two services. An R from 95th St and M from Bay Parkway, local on 4th Ave., via bridge and Broadway Express, terminating at 57th Street.
The north section of the R would run from Forest Hills to Whitehall Street, local on Broadway. The north section of the M would run from Metropolitan Avenue to Chambers or Broad Street.
LOVE it
Peace,
ANDEE
The Port Authority has set up a submission form for comments regarding the new proposed pricing structures for HudsonRiver crossings and for the new PATH fare structure. If you can't make it to any of the hearings, please submit your comments via their website: http://www.panynj.gov.
A list of hearing times and places is located there. I have also posted them previously.
I wrote in. I guess the good news is that the PA, unlike the MTA, is permitting on-line comments. The internet makes it easy to comment. Too easy, I guess, in the view of some.
I will also mail in a letter to the MTA, asking that it do SOMETHING for Brooklyn (V to Church/F express, V to BMT Broadway line replacing J/Z) as part of its plan.
Great!
>>>I guess the good news is that the PA, unlike the MTA, is permitting on-line comments<<<
Yes that is good news. The MTA should stop running a "deaf" website. It's nauseating that you cannot communicate with them on the web.
Peace,
ANDEE
[Sorry if any of you find these long posts about my rail trips last week annoying, but I know that at least some of you might be interested. There is a dearth of railfans in my office or in the group of my friends who are my age. You guys are the only ones who might relate! Anyway, cheers, and Happy New Year!]
This past holiday week was one of busy travel for my wife and me. The trip began before Christmas on the Acela Express, about which I reported earlier, to Washington to see my sister, then to Harrisburg to see my parents, then to Tampa to see my Grandmother, then back to Harrisburg, then back to New York via Amtrak. I would very much appreciate answers to questions, in bold.
In Tampa, I got to ride the people-mover at the airport. It was a little confusing because I was not sure if there were stops in between the airside terminal and the main terminal, so we guessed and got off at the first stop, which turned out to be right. I couldn't tell while in the pod. It looked like the tracks went on, and there were no announcements or maps in the pod. Researching on this site would have answered my questions beforehand, but I had forgotten about the Tampa section.
Notes, comments and questions from myAmtrak Keystone trip:
At the Harrisburg Transportation Center, there is a nice display of black and white photographs on the wall of the track crossover mezzanine. They depict Amtrak and Penn Central in Harrisburg throughout the years. (I didn't see any purely PRR photos in this group, though there are others elsewhere in the station.) You can see several AEM7s, and even some GG-1s, photographed in service! If you're travelling on the Pennsylvanian, Three Rivers, or Skyline Connection soon, I recommend using the 20 minute rest in the schedule to take a peek. Hurry! I don't think the display is permanent. In addition to the familiar Pennsylvania routes, the photo captions mention the "National Limited" to St. Louis (now defunct - Amtrak doesn't even traverse the route anymore after Pittsburgh) and the something called the "Big Apple Limited" (what were the terminals of this service, and when did it run?).
Jersey Mike might be interested to know I saw one of the new wayside color-light-type (not sure of their official name) signals a few feet to the east of the Amtrak platforms at Harrisburg. NS just double-tracked their Harrisburg Line through the city and I guess they must have replaced the PRR position light signals on that portion of their track. See the recent issue of Railpace for details. I didn't get a photo, since my wife and I were dragging around heavy luggage. Being laden so makes it hard to bop around railfanning. (I saw that position light signals are still in use on Amtrak's Harrisburg-Philadelphia Line.)
Unfortunately, a Genesis locomotive is what led our 4-car Amfleet coach consist. I always wish for an AEM7, which is occasionally granted if I am lucky. This leads me to my next question. The "Keystone" route between HAR and the Philadelphia metro area often winds through some fairly dense forestation. Within these woods, I often saw large trees, which had fallen and severely stretched (for lack of the official term, I'll call them) the power distribution cables. These are the cables you see strung along electrified routes about 50 feet from the ROW, about 10 feet off the ground. Isn't this dangerous, and can't it possibly interrupt the power to the catenary? If so, shouldn't the cables be cleared of these hazards?
Does anyone have any information about the huge former rail yard just east of Coatesville station, between there and Downingtown? There are many tracks ripped up there, and it's odd to see wide poles and catenary strung over dirt! (I say cop the wire for use in Harrisburg's Corridor One Light Rail project!)
After we passed Paoli, I saw a couple of the wooden wedding-cake style stations in mid-renovation, up on blocks. Later, the 2 AE trainsets were sitting in the yard at 30th Street. It was New Year's Day, and they were idle.
At 30th Street, I took the 25 minute "layover" to venture up into the station. (There are advantages to having your wife along, because she can guard your bags while you railfan! The only other times I have used the locomotive-change-time to go up into the station are when I have only a backpack, which I take with me, or when I'm starved enough for a Big Mac. Hey, if you're not gonna put a Café car on the train…)
Every time the conductor announces to the passengers about the locomotive switch, it's a varying story. Sometimes they say nothing. Sometimes they tell you it's a "power change." Sometimes they explain that it's a "switch from diesel to electric." They usually warn you the train will get dark for a few minutes, that you can step off and "have a cigarette," and always tell you when the train will leave at #:## "with or without you on it." So up I went with my watch. I wasn't hungry, so I spent most of the time looking at the placard display of "30th Street Station through the ages," which is a series of panels situated in front of the large "Spirit of Transportation" sculpture, in the anteroom next to the main concourse. I didn't know about the new "Center City West" plans. It looks like there may soon be buildings over the yard at 30th Street. Anyone have more information about this?
The rest of the trip to New York was uneventful, and the good part is that on this leg, the train stops only in TRE, PJT, NWK, and NYP, so it's a virtual Express!
Were these new colour light signals on Amtrak or the NS Lurgan Branch that crosses over the Amtrak tracks on the concrete bridge? Did they look like stoplights? Amtrak uses PRR PL Dwarfs, the old CR Harrisburg line has US&S H-8's (the Amtrak entrance signal to CP-HARRIS is an H-8), Conrail used round signals and NS uses in-line stoplight signals.
To answer your questions:
I am going to guess that the "power distrabution cables" you mentioned are on small wooden polls, are insulated and are about as thick as your arm. These have nothing to do with power distrabution. The power lines are only those involved with the catenary setup on the steel polls. The cables you saw are for communications and signaling. They are quite robust and may not even be in use any more.
The Yard just past Dowington is Thorndale Yard. Thorndale yard runs from THORN (MP 35.0) to CALN (MP 36.6) interlockings and had about 6 electrified and non-electrified tracks. In PRR/PC days is was a helper base for freight trains moving on the main line. There was a coaling dock there and it was staffed my mostly L1 2-8-2's. There are grades westbound from about MP 38 to MP 43 and Eastbound from about MP 30 to MP 21. Currently it is used by MoW crews and possibly by layover SEPTA trains.
>>>Were these new colour light signals on Amtrak or the NS Lurgan Branch that crosses over the Amtrak tracks on the concrete bridge? Did they look like stoplights? Amtrak uses PRR PL Dwarfs, the old CR Harrisburg line has US&S H-8's (the Amtrak entrance signal to CP-HARRIS is an H-8), Conrail used round signals and NS uses in-line stoplight signals.<<<
The signals I saw looked like this:
o
o
o
o
o
o
o
I may not have the groupings right, and I was to the side of them, so I don't know if they were actually colored or not, but they did look like stoplights. They were near NS's switch at CP-PAXTON, which is on the tracks running parallel to and to the east of Amtrak's Harrisburg Station tracks. Railpace: "the connector track toward CP-CAPITAL...now designated a continuation of Harrisburg Line Track #1 from CP-CAPITAL to the Pittsburgh Line...at CP-HARRIS. The new track is Track #2, "which uses part of the Royalton Branch" to the west.
You can always catch a good view of a freight running through there if you're willing to poke about after debarking, as I have occasionally done, and these days its not unusual to see GPs in both NS and Conrail livery.
If the concrete bridge you're talking about the Mulberry Streeet bridge, south (east) of the station, that's an automobile bridge. I don't remember seeing any concrete railroad bridges passing over Amtrak's tracks near the Harrisburg Transportation Center.
This reminds me. Did you know Harrisburg has a "subway?" That's right. The Amtrak tracks north (west) of the station pass over Walnut Street, which carries automobile traffic and ducks under the railroad at a steep grade. The overpass is supported by many thin steel i-beams which are painted white. This similar construction to the NYC Subway may be why the locals refer to it as "the subway." I swear! I can't believe I didn't remember this till now!
>>>I am going to guess that the "power distrabution cables" you mentioned are on small wooden polls, are insulated and are about as thick as your arm. These have nothing to do with power distrabution. The power lines are only those involved with the catenary setup on the steel polls. The cables you saw are for communications and signaling. They are quite robust and may not even be in use any more. <<<
Yep. That's what I'm talking about. They did look old and rusty and almost down in some places. It would make sense that they're not in use anymore, 'cause they don't look it. BTW, if these aren't used for signalling anymore, what is? Did they move the cable which is used for its purposes now to the catenary poles. If so, why was the first cable ever put up? It would make sense if the cable had been for communications before radio, but then what are the wires way up high above the catenary for if not for communication. What I'm getting at is, why string a weird extra cable up 50 feet of the track 10 feet off the ground? I've only ever seen this running beside electrified trackage, like here or on MNRR Hudson Line.
On most of the LIRR electrified lines there are old cast iron metal towers or wooden poles with electrical cable. Are those used for third rail power?
Its probably Hi-V AC that feeds into substations.
I've done some photo research and I can say almost for certain that those cables are for signaling and communications. I have several theories why you see them where you do. First of all those type of thick, cable suspended cables are found on non-electrified portions and used there also for S&C. Out west of Chicago all the signals are hooked into lines like that. The old old S&C cables are those non-insulated telegraph wires you see all over the place. They were used for block phones and even track circuts. The thick cable suspended lines are a more recent devolopment. It could just be that when a line was electrified and resignaled the communications system was redone and the old telegraph style lines were removed (you never see them after all) and replaced with these bundle cables or underground lines.
Another reason might be that the nigh votlage transmission and catenary lines could interfere with the open copper telegraph wires and induce phantom currents in them. A bundle cable placed away from the 132Kv transmission lines could solve the problem.
The reason that they are not used today is probably because most RR's place their S&C cables underground along the RoW. As I said western roads don't and it sticks out.
As for Harrisburg dosen't the Lurgan branch cross both the river and the PRR line on a concrete arch bridge?
Both the former Reading Company bridge and Cumberland Valley Railroad bridge traverse the Susquehanna via concrete arch bridges. The CVRR bridge is a bit wider and has catenary poles, but the catenary itself is gone and the bridge is only tracked about 1/3 of the way from the east shore to serve as Amtrak's wye at Harrisburg. You can see some pretty high weeds growing along the bridge surface. I wish I had the balls to hike it, but I don't feel like going to jail. Anyway, the CVRR became part of the PRR early in the last century, and they electrified the river bridge. I'm only guessing, but passenger service over the bridge may have included HARRISBURG-YORK-BALTIMORE-WASHINGTON trains using the West Shore line, such as the D.C. portion of the Broadway Limited. Anybody know?
CAT (Capital Area Transit) actually owns the bridge itself. It was bought years ago after abandonment by PRR/PC/Conrail in anticipation of serving Harrisburg's transit needs in some way, and all kinds of proposals have been floating around. It's commonly refered to as the Corridor One project. News bites were legitimized in my mind recently by a mention in Railway Age's "2000 Transit Guide." (I still anxiously await delivery of the 2001 version.) The corridor is to stretch from Carlisle to Lancaster and will most likely use Amtrak's ROW from LAC to HAR and then the former CVRR (using the bridge) between HAR and Carlisle, currently single-tracked on the immediate west shore. I wish I knew the current branch names for you. I think NS/Conrail makes more use of the double-tracked former Reading ROW west of Harrisburg, but I have witnessed freights on the old CVRR portion. There are supposed to be some demonstration projects soon, most likely with RDCs, and you can bet I'll be on-hand for that. I think the plan is to introduce the service in a limited fashion using RDCs to garner interest, and later convert to conventional light rail. Of course this is all years away, but hell, if Burlington, VT can have trains, why the hell can't a former "rail center" such as The Burg? But I am wondering about ridership, since event the current bus service on the west shore portions of the route is infrequent (maybe 3 rush-hour runs each way a day) and uses those smaller buses (not vans, but not long like NYC buses either).
But back to the point, I'm certain the CVRR bridge tracks meet Amtrak's at-grade south of the station. The Reading bridge is still in use, and never had catenary. I'll be jiggered if I can recall where its tracks go once they reach the East Shore, so you may be right about a bridge if the "Lurgan branch" you mention is perhaps the former Reading ROW. I don't know, but I'll investigate next time I'm there.
The Lurgan Branch is the Reading line to Shippensburg. It crosses the river on a concrete arch bridge that is one level higher than the PRR bridge because the Lurgan Branch crosses over the PRR just south of the station. The new interlockings in the HGB area are to serve the increased traffic through the Hagarstown gateway.
Thanks. I'll pay more attention next time I pull into HAR to see if I can get a better idea of the interlockings and crossovers.
Do you have track maps or something? If so, where can I get my hands on them? I keep asking about a reco on a good railroad atlas, but nobody seems to know whether the one I've found for $80 is worth it.
There are official 1992 track diagrams located at http://members.aol.com/amtrakmaps/C-index.html
They have pictures like this:
Remember to check the home page for NY to DC maps.
I find your posts most interesting. They educate me about systems that I have not been on, yet. Keep 'em comin'
Peace,
ANDEE
Saw this on the news here yesterday. Down in san diego a compact car filled with people either gets stuck on the tracks & or crosses them while the san diego trolley comes on full speed. The trolley wins & goes back into service with almost no damage at all like nothing happened!
My comment is why would anybody not take serious being at any railroad crosing of any type of train? It always results in disaster. What happened to the people trapped inside was too horrible to comment on.
We should always be careful at & around any type of train(s) & especially at railroad crossings!
I fully agree with you. I think that people try to beat a train at a crossing because they treat a crossing like any other road intersection, where they can "beat the light." Unfortunatly, there are different consequences when another car hits you and when a train hits you.
salaamallah is absolutely right about "beating the train". In Baltimore we've had 17 auto/truck vs. LRV accidents since 1992. The LRV won EVERY time.
As there is no real need for off peak direction V train it could run to Smith St. and return as G to Continental, PM rush the other way round.
Arti
That is an interesting idea. The V provides the rush hour Manhattan service we need, then provides crosstown service.
But: is the non-rush service it would give G riders enough to make it worthwhile? To put it another way, would a full-time V have more demand than a part-time G?
It will, since some people take E/F,R to Queens Plaza during the afternoon rush and cross over for the G if headed toward BK. And they take the G to the E/F,R when going to work. The V would definitely be useful there, since it would provide extra service for those passengers. Often, Crosstown riders are headed toward schools on the QB line, so it definitely would work in both the morning and afternoon.
The problem is Gs would still have to turn at Court Sq so that crosstown riders in the opposite direction who have nothing to do with the QB line don't get screwed, and you can't turn trains and provide through service on the same tracks unless the actual turning point is past the station on its own tracks (i.e. Church Ave (F), Smith-9, Bowling Green, 71/Continental).
There would be no problem turning Gs with ONE WAY V through service using the layup track between Court Square and 21st Street.
Arti
Imagine this: A G ends up in front of the V northbound. D1 at Court is already filled, the G ends up going in to D2. 20 minute wait for V passengers since D2 would probably empty first. Meanwhile, the next 2 Gs are piled up behind.
Southbound, the G on D1 would have to clear out in a hurry so that the V can enter.
MAYBE by turning trains on whatever track is not providing through service would work, but keep in mind you will need that second track if any delays occur.
Also, your average commuter is a complete moron who can't read signs. V - TO SMITH-9 | VIA CROSSTOWN and V - TO SMITH-9 | 6 AV LINE look an awful lot alike. Overhead platform signs displaying time ranges would confuse passengers.
Anyway, Smith-9 can't turn 2 lines. One would have to go to Church.
[Imagine this: A G ends up in front of the V northbound. D1 at Court is already filled, ]
With G rush hour frequency, it would be hard to imagine. Anyway, to keep things moving, let's delay G riders while keeping G on the layup track.
[Anyway, Smith-9 can't turn 2 lines. One would have to go to Church. ]
Whatever, it's just the best plan I could come up with to satisfy those who insist that there's the need for G QB service.
IMHO the best thing for G would be 2 car trains running frequently and on their own ROW. Light rail if you will.
Arti
Go to http://www.maxlightrail.com and wait for the map on the mainpage to load up. I made the whole thing using nothing but MSPaintbrush for the map and nothing but Notepad for the HTML that makes it clickable. Pretty cool, huh? Click on a station to go to that station, or a section to go to that section
Hey, that is cool. I always wondered how to divide a picture up into several links like that. But how does the coords tag work? I assume you take them in pairs, and that they refer to pixels, but what direction are they in, top to bottom, left to right, etc.?
Thanks.
That map is PHAT!! Love your "easter eggs," they make the map look cool. I always wanted to make a map where you can click and then see pictures of the stations, but I'm way too lazy to put in the time or effort.
Very, very impressive.
BTW everyone, I'll be flying to Seattle tomorrow morning, trip report when I get back.
Nice site! Has me seriously considering Portland for my vacation this summer, Thanks!
Peace,
ANDEE
Just heard that the PATCO line in Philly has been shut down since 5:30 along its entire length due to electrical problems. Apparently, people are stranded downtown. Does anyone know if they run shuttle busses in cases like this? It seems to make sense, but I don't know whose busses they would use, since DVRPA only runs one rail transit line, and not any busses. Perhaps PATCO should be managed by SEPTA or NJT? (I'd prefer NJT).
It's running again, but only every 25 minutes! Apparently there was a fire in a generator station.
As of the time of this post, PATCO’s website has a streaming message at the bottom of the page stating approximately 20 minute service due to electrical problems.
Although such service shutdowns on PATCO are very rare, it would be wise to have a backup plan, and that's PATCO's Achille's heel. If anything, PATCO would most likely go to NJ Transit for bus substitution, since they also serve Philly. But that is a great unknown.
Planning is under way for the purchase of the R-160 fleet for the B division. Seems like it'll be a 60' car. Initial order will be 660 cars with an option for 330 additional. R-38, R-40, and 1/2 of the R-32 fleet (likely phase I) will likely be replaced.
I'm surprised half the R-32s will go before the R-42s, based on the reported little problems with the 42s on the Eastern Division. Does the replacement plans include both the R-40 Slants and the R-40Ms?
Len me answer in two parts:
I was asked by someone writing an opinion about which cars should be scrapped first, what my opinion was. He then stated that scrapping 1/2 of the R-32s was being considered and he asked which 1/2 I would scrap. I suggested that the phase I cars be scraped first. My thoughts were that the Phase II cars have Stone Safety HVAC and it is far more reliable than the thermoking HVAC on the 32s. I also suggested that the Phase I Wabco brake valve be used to replace the NYAB brake valve on the Phase IIs. We did this on te R-68s and the improvement is remarkable.
As for what cars will be scrapped, It's only in the talking stages right now but i can assure you that the 38s and 40S will go first and fast.
Let me answer in two parts:
I was asked by someone writing an opinion about which cars should be scrapped first, what my opinion was. He then stated that scrapping 1/2 of the R-32s was being considered and he asked which 1/2 I would scrap. I suggested that the phase I cars be scraped first. My thoughts were that the Phase II cars have Stone Safety HVAC and it is far more reliable than the thermoking HVAC on the 32s. I also suggested that the Phase I Wabco brake valve be used to replace the NYAB brake valve on the Phase IIs. We did this on te R-68s and the improvement is remarkable.
As for what cars will be scrapped, It's only in the talking stages right now but i can assure you that the 38s and 40S will go first and fast.
Scrapping newer stuff first is quite a comment on those purchases.
Might be a comment on the maintenance that has been performed over the years. Besides the amount of stainless in the R-32s, haven't they had a major overhaul more recently than the 38s and 40s?
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
True, but not by much. The first of the current overhauled cars to appear were the R38's in early 1987 (and what a shock it was to see them, I thought they were brand new cars at first). Then the R40's started appearing in the fall of 1987, followed by the the R42's in 1988. My last ride on a pre GOH R42 was on the Q line in December 1988. The last ride on a pre GOH R32 I took was in September 1989.
>>>Scrapping newer stuff first is quite a comment on those purchases.<<<
Sure won't be first time, and I'm sure it won't be the last.
Peace,
ANDEE
The R10 outlasted the R16 by 2 years. They even outlasted almost all the R27's, which were purchased a full 12 years after the R10.
I'll miss those wonderful slants. Good riddance to the R38.
You may have time for a ride or two on the slants. We're looking at 2004 for delivery to start. As for the demise of the R-32 - that may be premature. The scrapping of 1/2 of the fleet is ONLY being talked about - nothing more.
In my opinion, they shouldn't scrap any of the working cars! They should keep them around in case of a shortage.
- Lyle Goldman
I'll bet they will. But the R38's and R40's are really approaching the end of any useful operating lives. Body rust ...
The problem is similar to a personal auto. You can keep it running forever if you want to keep investing in repairs. For what it is worth, the division of car equipment is not the one calling for the scrapping of the R-32s. We will have our say when the time comes. In the meantime, the R-32s will go through another 12 year SMS before any decision is made.
This evening about 5:15PM or so I witnessed another pair of Main Line R 36 cars. Car #s 9548 and 9549 Again they are running with a GE consist 9548 is connected to 9666 and 9549 is connected to 9700 there will be more to come stay tuned.
Today I was on R-36s 9550-9551, coupled to R-33 single 9331 (I think). Anyone else notice the builder's plates are gone?(green rectangle of pre-goh paint instead). I bet some of Westchester yd's boys took a few souveniers before sending them off.
Low-life "railfans" steal them too! I've seen them missing on R68/68As beleive it or not.
Peace,
ANDEE
Here's the correct consist:
9746-9747-9313-9701-9700-9725-9724-9549-9548-9666-9667
9550-9551 consist is still the same.
#7 Flushing Local#9551Gary
Correction: 9339 instead of 9313 on this consist.
R33#9339Gary
On a short railfan trip today to Rahway, I photographed some splendid Amtraks at speed with their trailing clouds of kicked up snow. I was a sight to see, and when I develop my roll, you will all see.
When I went to take the PATH from Newark to WTC, the train came in from the east full with passengers at the bottom level PATH platform from the opposite direction. (For those of you unfamiliar with the PATHI, trains from NY are supposed to be sent to the upper level platform where all passengers get off) I wasn't sure why this was done, but there was a lot of people.
Also, when I was coming home, I noticed that the track turnout ice melters were actually flaming up about foot from the rail head. Are de-icers supposed to flame up? It ppeared to be natural gas because it was a blue flame.
-Dan
They are called point heaters and in most places they are propane, but the NEC might be on a gas line.
Railfan and Railroad Magazine has a photo of the first Genesis loco, #123 at the Ivy City yard in Acela livery. I need a correction: is the gray with dark blue top and red stripe Acela livery or the new Amtrak phase V livery? Anyway, they are planning on converting many northeast AMD-103s to the new livery in the near future just like the AEM-7s.
-Dan
Uni 123 was the first painted inthat livery. All subsequently delivered units are also in that livery. Plans are to repaint the entire fleet that way -- but as we all know Amtrak, by the time they get halfway through, they will come up with yet another livery.
That's a definite improvement, IMO.
Peace,
ANDEE
Unit 123 is painted in the new corporate logo, not the acela logo.
I took the subways today, although my destination was Garden State Plaza from GWB.
Going I was lucky enough to get the 7X with a front window from Flushing.
Got off at Times Square and walked the long passageway for the uptown A train. A train of R44's just pulled out as I got in the station.
About 5 minutes later an A of R38's came. Fortunately the window was available.
The CPW ride was fast, and we'd really fly if it wasn't for all those timers. Then I saw what looked like an R44 C train at 110th on the downtown local, but at closer inspection it was an R110B. Never saw one in person before, the digital signs said "listen for announcements".
Then at 125th the same A I missed was in the station and we had to wait. Those R44's are slow, aren't they?
Then at 145th street somebody holds the doors on my train, and I heard the conductor warn the doorholder over the PA "You won't be so lucky next time".
Got off at GWB.
Going back from GWB I had an A of R44's. Needless to say, the ride wasn't anywhere near as enjoyable. The CPW express run wasn't impressive to say the least. The R44 train was quiet, and you could fall asleep on the seat near those plastic things near the doors, or just from boredom.
Got off at W4th and got a packed Q (this was around 4pm) just one stop.
I left the system so I could walk over to the uptown 6 (no xfer to uptown, only downtown).
Uptown 6 all the way to Grand Central. We caught up to the 5 we just missed at 42nd.
Picked up my 2001 NYC subways calander at the transit museum store.
Then the Shuttle to Times Square. They were making announcements about some sort of problem on the F train, though they seemed pretty much unintelligable.
Then at Times Square I got a 7X train back to Flushing.
We had a T/O in training, and it was quite interesting listening to the instructions.
Phrases like "two points", "wrap it up" were said alot. Pretty fast ride through the Steinway tubes, after to the T/O wrapped it up after the P marker at the 1sta ve crossover. Many T/O's should know the timers clear after 1st ave, and go in full speed. Many don't and you don't get good speed in there. This new guy was doing a great job.
We emerged from the tunnel after HP and the snow looked beautiful. The 7 train in the snow is awesome. Everything looks so nice in the snow.
The instructor warnsthe T/O "stop" when that tricky signal comes up in the middle at QBP.
This guy did well on the middle track. There was also a lot of pretty arcing and flickering due to the snow.
After Junction there were several loud pops from under the train, probably arcs.
When we got to Flushing the instructor asked me "he did great didn't he" and I said yeah.
He did awesome, one of the best 7 train rides I had in a long time, and the snow was the icing on the cake.
Also what's going on with Subtalk lately? I'm having alot of trouble getting connected to the site. I'm trying my Juno account now to get this post up. Hope it works!
> Also what's going on with Subtalk lately?
> I'm having alot of trouble getting connected to the site.
I've been having trouble, too. It seems the more messages there are on the server, the slower the server is to respond! I was able to have this problem temporarily fixed by changing my Subtalk settings so that only the messages from the last two weeks are loaded. Dave Pirmann should program the server to respond with something almost immediately, and maybe stagger the response, so that it doesn't time out.
- Lyle Goldman
Change your settings to load only 3 or 4 days; it loads much faster.
I normally load only one day. The messages list isn't the problem, it's individual messages that seem to give me fits. Lots of timeouts, and I'm on a cable modem - and then I'll go for half an hour with no problems. Dave?
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I get that too and on a T1!
Peace,
ANDEE
I know, but I want to see as many messages as possible.
Funny thing is, when I go to the Subtalk index late at night, it usually loads faster.
- Lyle Goldman
I only have it to display the last two days. Funny thing is when I got onto Subtalk through my Juno account it seemed fine. But last night the spec.net didn't work well with Subtalk. Tonight it seems abit better though.
>>>... but at closer inspection it was an R110B. Never saw one in person before...<<<
The R110B you saw is the only one.
Peace,
ANDEE
Yeah I know there was only one set, so it was indeed a rare opportunity. Too bad I didn't get to ride it.
There are three 3-car sets of R-110Bs. Two are in service on the C as a 6-car train; the remaining set has been cannibalized for parts.
>>>They were making announcements about some sort of problem on the F train, though they seemed pretty much unintelligable. <<<
Too bad you didn't get on an F train, you could've ridden through the 63rd St. tunnel, they were being rerouted due to a broken rail in the 53rd st tunnel
Peace,
ANDEE
Oh darn!! Well I'll have to wait till next weekend, there's a G.O. for E,F,and R trains to be run through 63rd st. You can bet I'll be going through there at least a few times.
I finally got it today. Actually, I was kinda pissed when I left school (personal stuff . . . ) and didn't feel like going straight home, so I took the bus into the city, took the 7 to Grand Central and waited on the southbound Lex platform.
A redbird #6 train pulled in and I had to try very hard to let it pass. I couldn't believe I was passing up a redbird!
Anyway, it left and the next was an R-62/A. Not a problem, I'm used to letting those go . . .
Then the next one came . . . redbird. I couldn't fight it. I just stepped on. A pleasant surprise to find that it was one with blinking lights. Anyway, I rode down to Brooklyn Bridge, got off, and watched for the next 6's coming in. R-62.
So off to the uptown side, where the train I came on was already waiting. As we left, what train should appear arriving on the downtown platform, but an R-142!
So off at Canal and waited.
The R-142 came, I got on the 3rd car, and passed to the 2nd. Those double-doors are kinda cool, in a weird sort of way.
It sounded like a happy electronic couple doing the announcements - the wife announced the stops, the husband said Stand Clear of the Doors [Please].
Then something weird happened - between Astor Place and Union Square, the lights flickered twice! Just like on the Flushing Line redbirds!
Could flickering lights live on in the R-142/A?
Overall, not bad. BUt like everything else, the novelty will wear off and then I'll really miss the redbirds.
OH yeah, and the bus ride back to Jersey was almost pure hell. Almost, because despite the congestion and resulting crowds and delays, I grabbed one of the two remaining seats.
I saw on the TA website that the F will use the 63rd Street connector next weekend because of construction at 53rd Street. Will it be using 63rd this weekend, too?
Nope, the poster I saw said next weekend only. That will probably be the R-32's first trip into the tunnel. So far its been R-46 only.
I've seen three R-142a trains on the 2 line so far. There might be more, but I'm not sure.
are you sure you don't mean the R142? R142a's are only on the #6. There are at least 4 sets of R142s on the #2, including the subway series pinstriper. -Nick
Duh, how do you tell a r-142 from a r-142A? Sometimes I just don't see these things!!!!!!!!!!! :)
The easiest way is the builders plate. Look for it near the M/M's cab.
Peace,
ANDEE
Being a subway buff as yourself, don't you know the car numbers are the difference maker? :p
R142s' numbers are 6300s and above; whereas R142As' numbers are 7200s and above.
Also, R142's AC traction motor is quieter than that of R142As.
Since R142As are made by Kawasaki, their AC motors reminds me of those in Taipei Subway.
Chaohwa
Another way to tell the difference is that the R142A is built better,and more stylish...eventually all of them will have the long banner picture in each car. -Nick
Today was snowy in the morning. Also, because of Tony Kornheiser's recommendation about "Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon" on the radio everyday, I decided to watch "Crouching Tiger" today. It was only shown in DC. So I had to ride Metrorail to Union Station to watch the movie this afternoon.
So I went to school to check things up, and then to College Park- U of MD station to go to Union Station. I rode Green line to Fort Totton to transfer to the Red line. I rode Breda car 3197.
I found that the system map had changed. I have not rode Metrorail for nearly a month. This was the first time I saw this map. The remaining Green line to Branch Avenue has shown in service. Between Union Station and Rhode Island Avenue there is a planned New York Avenue station on Red line. Finally, there is a plan to extend Blue line from Addison Road to Summerfield and Largo Town Center.
I plan to post it, but I
I believe ground has been broken on New York Avenue.
It has.
Yes, indeed. I was surprised that WMATA has put New York Avenue Metro Station at their newest edition yesterday.
Chaohwa
So, how was the movie?
Peace,
ANDEE
I posted it at the second half of my long post. It was very good, better than I thought.
Chaohwa
Today was snowy in the morning. Also, because of Tony Kornheiser's recommendation about "Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon" on the radio everyday, I decided to watch "Crouching Tiger" today. It was only shown in DC. So I had to ride Metrorail to Union Station to watch the movie this afternoon.
So I went to school to check things up, and then to College Park- U of MD station to go to Union Station. I rode Green line to Fort Totton to transfer to the Red line. I rode Breda car 3197.
I found that the system map had changed. I have not rode Metrorail for nearly a month. This was the first time I saw this map. The remaining Green line to Branch Avenue has shown in service. Between Union Station and Rhode Island Avenue there is a planned New York Avenue station on Red line. Finally, there is a plan to extend Blue line from Addison Road to Summerfield and Largo Town Center.
I plan to post it, but I
Oh, there is some difficulty posting things. So I write the following:
===
I plan to post this information, but I think Oren had posted earlier. I will report my trip, anyway.
Crouching Tiger is a very good movie. I am Taiwanese, so I know all the conversation in Chinese. I am amazed that there is 80% full in the theater, and people appreciate good movies.
After the movie I went to see my favorite AEM7s and then ride Metrorail back to College Park. I rode Red line to Gallery Place- Chinatown to transfer to Green line back to College Park. I was surprised that I rode Breda 3080 on Red line and then Breda 3079 on Green line.
Next Saturday there will be a ceremony celebrating Green line extending to Branch Avenue. If the CAF cars will be on Green line that day, I will ride those new CAF cars.
Chaohwa
What did I post on? I haven't posted about DC since I left for New York before Christmas.
Are you going to the new stations next week? I was planning on asking the rest of the board (once I finish reading the new messages).
The CAF cars should be on the green line next weekend. They haven't started revenue testing to my knowledge but 26 of them will be needed by January 16th at the latest for rush hour service. I don't know about this but they might be able to theoretically manage without all 26 cars until that Tuesday (federal holiday Monday-MLK Day).
Because the pocket map's version is November 2000, I thought you have posted this information. My memory is very short. :p
Chaohwa
They put in new maps already? Amazing. It took months for the new map to appear anywhere else other than Glenmont after that station opened in July of 1998.
That is exactly why I am amazed. I went to Union Station to pick up those pocket maps. These maps are November 2000 versions. That is a miniature version of the system map I saw on Breda 3197.
Chaohwa
Actually, the reason for delay after Glenmont was so people could debate as to weather or not they should rename Friendship Heights Station. They didn't want to reprint the map with Glenmont and reprint it again with the new name for Friendship Heights. They were considering Friendship Heights/Chevy Chase, Chevy Chase/Friendship Heights, and even just Chevy Chase, the latter being unacceptable to most. I like none of the three, especially after all those ridiculous names they gave to the orange line stations in Virginia (and the operators don't even use), Woodley Park-Zoo/Adams Morgan, and U Street/African American Civil War Memorial/Cardozo (the stupidest of them all because no one who I know knows what or where the AACWM is).
The online Metro System Map does not show these new changes.
The stations open Saturday.
>>>I plan to post it, but I >...<<<
...keep hitting the wrong key? 8-)
Peace,
ANDEE
That's right. My connection was not very well at that time.
Chaohwa
LOL
Most of the 70s tile is gone at 23st. You can clearly see the mosaics and old signs (including DOWN STAIRS FOR DOWN TOWN TRAINS).
It seemed like just a few days ago they were walking around in white suits with red tape on the platform labelled "DANGER: ASBESTOS" in clear view of passengers waiting on the downtown platform.
...including DOWN STAIRS FOR DOWNTOWN TRAINS...
Sigh... they'll probably meet the same fate as JAMAICA
AND ROCKAWAYS at 65 St and CANARSIE at Times Sq.
They actually had most of the modern signage and
some tile removed from 28 St in the couple of weeks
before the closure.
It figures; all the breaks go to the better half ! My wife got in from work a bit late tonight and reported that the F train she was on got re-routed up the 63rd St. connector and express through to Roosevelt Ave. Al this due to a broken rail somehwere along 53rd St. she said. Apparantly they were running the Es up 6th as well. All this was around 7-ish tonight.
Anybody know if things are back to normal already, or will we get to see some 32s going through the connector *this* weekend as well.
I ask, hoping, since I will be in Boston next weekend for a conference.
Cheers,
PJ Dougherty
And I was on one of those trains. Guess what? I got off before it went to 63rd!
Well, I was in a hurry. I got on at 14th. At 34th I heard the announcement. I thought fast and got on the R. It didn't occour to me 'till too late that the 53rd St delay could have meant a 63rd St reroute.
Oh well. Maybe next time.
:) Andrew
I consider myself lucky. While I usually transfer to the R at Time Square, yesterday I went to take the F train at 14 Street/6 Ave. an E train came (all this was around 4:30)! I dunno but that train went through the 63 Street connector (maybe it was the first R-32 to go over the connector?)! I doubt the reroute continues through today, although I don't know how long it takes for TA to fix a broken rail (it was at Lex Ave/53 btw), but it was cool to see the connector on an R-32 a week before it was supposed to go there.
How did the passangers on your train react? I'd bet it was their first trip through it, and most probably had no idea of it's existance.
Anyways, these occasional emergency reroutes during peak riding times are a great way to famaliarize people with the new connection well before it opens permanently.
Oh yeah, it was pretty funny. When they made those announcements on 50th Street, everyone looked up and a few of the passengers left the train. So many people looked at Lexington Avenue/63 Street in awe.
A wild ride, indeed.
I got on at 23 St and started nodding off just after 34 St. When I woke up, we were stopped in the tunnel between 34 & 42; the destination signs (which had read "TO CONEY ISLAND") were out, as were the fans. Off with the headphones, I thought, this is going to get interesting.
After a minute or two, there's an announcement that we're being held because of congestion. We start moving again, and the fans and signs come back to life. The signs are even saying "QUEENS EXPRESS" now, although they switch back to "CONEY ISLAND" in less than a minute.
Stop in the tunnel again between 42 and 47-50; conductor again announces there's congestion. At 47-50, he announces that we'll be running on the Q to 21-Queensbridge, and the F behind us will be making regular F stops. Most people pile off the train, others have no clue; I'm preparing myself for another Long Island City walking tour for those who don't believe that the Q doesn't go to Forest Hills. I was sitting under the map; one woman asked me what color the Q is! Now the announcement changes: we'll be running on the Q to 21-Queensbridge, then making ALL STOPS to 179 St!! Biiiig smile on my face! The same woman asks me where 179 St is; interestingly enough; she didn't get off until Van Wyck Blvd. People pile back on the train, most of them asking themselves, "are we going to stop at Queens Plaza?" Sigh.
Looks of total amazement as we pull into the 63 St stations, especially Lexington Avenue, where I'm sure a number of people got off expecting to catch the 6. A group of about five very vocal girls whose destination was Roosevelt Avenue insisted that it wasn't really Lexington Avenue. They almost got off at Roosevelt Island, after they remarked "what's Roosevelt Island?" "Where are we?" and "This must be the same as Roosevelt Avenue!" Fortunately for them, the conductor announed the next stops would be 21 St and Roosevelt Avenue.
After 21 St, the tunnel is very cool. A lot of passengers were looking out the side windows. Going around the curve, there's a great view of the Manhattan-bound trackway. Going up the ramp to meet the Queens Blvd line is a thrill, too, especially with a local train passing by. It was definintely worth the delays to get to ride through the tunnel!
Didn't know the signs cut off when over a 3rd rail gap.
So how long does it take to get from 21st Queensbridge to 36th? The tunnel sounds cool, hopefully I'll get a chance to really check it out with that weekend G.O.
I was so enthralled with the tunnel, I didn't even notice how long it took! It's definitely longer than from Queens Plaza to 36 St, but less than the time from 23-Ely to 36 St. You'll find out for yourself in a few days :)!
my F train, did the same, after sitting at 47-50 for 15 min and the t/o begging the c/r to close the door,finally a supv. can on and id himself and ordered the c/r to close the doors, the whole time the c/r was announ. next stop Lex, forgetting about 57th. lots of confusfed people but I knew where were were going and it was a great ride...
We may have been on the same train; I'll never forget the booming voice that came over the PA at 47-50: "Conducta, will you PLEASE CLOSE the DOORS!!"
AARGH!!!!!!!
I was all set to go to 34th to take the F home Friday night, which I have done every single railfanning day since they started T/O familiarization in the tunnel, hoping for a G.O. But then I remembered that there were mainline R-36s on the 7, so I took that instead, and did get a mainline R-36 on first train that arrived (and it stopped right in front of me too). I should of taken that as a sign that I was missing something big. At Roosevelt, I heard over the PA "After an earlier incident, Queensbound E and F trains are running normally, but use the G and R if possible." A super crowded E arrives, followed by a 3 minute gap (which often means crush situation on next train) and an F with the crowd levels of about 2 in the afternoon. The thing which made me suspect a 63st reroute was the last 2 cars had ample seats, impossible if the train stopped at 53/Lex.
I have two questions about the #5 Train.
First of all, I've noticed that some #5 trains are going to Utica Avenue. Why are they doing this? The map says that when the #5 trains do go to Brooklyn, they go to Flatbush Avenue, and there was no service announcement regarding this. What's going on?
Second, it says on the Service Advisories page on the MTA's website under the #5 line that downtown trains are running express from 14th Street to Brooklyn Bridge late nights. I thought #5 trains didn't go to Manhattan late nights! Did they put that there by mistake?
- Lyle Goldman
>>>First of all, I've noticed that some #5 trains are going to Utica Avenue.<<<
They've been doing this for years. When I was in the IRT in 1994, they had 2 or 3 early evening #5 trains scheduled to go to Utica Av instead of Flatbush Av.
>>>I thought #5 trains didn't go to Manhattan late nights!<<<
Right you are! It was inserted in error.
Just like the G.O poster I saw once:
LATE NITE - NO 5 Service Between 149st and Bowling Green. 11:30 PM SAT - 5AM SUN.
1. Most of the time, the 5's that are scheduled to Utica run OOS to Livonia Yard to take a midday break. There are some that DO turn back at Utica and head into Manhattan. In the early morning and early evening rush hour however, the 5 makes all stops from NL to Utica before going express. At the end of the evening rush, there are a couple of 5's that would run OOS to Livonia Yard, and there are a couple that make stops to NL before going to the yard. There are a couple of 2 trains that go to NL as well during the morning and evening rush. It is so that they can be stored in Livonia Yard. You shouuld see the Livonia El from 9:30 to 10:30am. Talk about bumper to bumper traffic :):). Hopefully, this problem will be relieved if the TA decides to build a storage yard at Flatbush Junction.
2. Just a mistake. The 5 dont run late nights.
Train#1987Mike
[Hopefully, this problem will be relieved if the TA decides to build a storage yard at Flatbush Junction.]
Mike, I think the idea is not a storage yard at Flatbush/Nostrand Junction (since there isn't room), but to extend the 2/5 tracks onto the Bay Ridge Line, thereby allowing for one or two layup or 'turn-around' tracks to help with rush-hour headways.
BTW, a few years ago there was another idea from MTA that would involve turning a part of Linden Yards into a storage facility for 2/5 trains. This of course would have meant: (1) electrifying the Bay Ridge Line between Flatbush/Nostrand and Linden, and (2) disturbing the freight schedules of clients on the Bay Ridge. That's probably why this plan never saw the light of day. (not to mention that a plan like this would involve FRA approval since it is a freight line).
BMTman
Is that ROW a two or four track capacity? Do I understand correctly that if there is NO connection between the tracks the FRAs then have no compulsion on the transit lines. The freight and transit are two separate and unique entities, and not subject to each others rules. I know you know this area, line and such. Please light a candle in the dark!
avid in the dark
[Is that ROW a two or four track capacity? Do I understand correctly that if there is NO connection between the tracks the FRAs then have no compulsion on the transit lines. The freight and transit are two separate and unique entities, and not subject to each others rules. I know you know this area, line and such. Please light a candle in the dark!]
The Bay Ridge Branch ROW has room for four or five tracks, but at present time there are no more than two tracks used at the most. The remnants of four track operation on the Bay Ridge Line is quite evident on the embankment and cut sections of the eastern-most part of the ROW (Farragut, Canarsie and East NY). Once the line dips down and heads west to Bay Ridge it is strictly single-track out to the float-bridges by 65th Street and the Brooklyn Army Terminal.
Right you are, about frieght and R/T operations. One of the few R/T operatoins that I know of that is under FRA rules & regs is PATH. That's because the PATH system does have a connection (although not actually used anymore) with CSX somewhere near Harrison. And of course PATH was originally under Penn Central operations way back in the day.
BMTman
Well, Path does have a connection that comes out of the Yard, and connects with Amtrak and NJT on the NEC. When the Hoboken Festival was held this year, Path Equipment had to use this connector to the NEC, in order to get to Hoboken Terminal. It works!!! How else can you get PATH equipment in and out of the system? The connector is an equivalent to that of Linden Yard's connection with the Bay Ridge Line, serving the purpose of R-142 deliveries....
As for Path's ties with the major RR's: Operation east of Journal Square, was under joint control with the Pennsylvania Railroad, in the days of when it was the Hudson and Manhattan. Some of the 1958 cars that operated over the H and M as part of joint operation were purchased partly by the PRR.
Speaking of Path, construction west of Journal Sq single tracked trains through Harrison and Newark on the WTC Bound Track today.
-Stef
Yea! Meaning my usual Comp Limo to Newark Penn (AKA PATH) wasn't free you had to catch it on the side with the fare control. Meaning $1 for a 53 second ride to Newark Penn.
Mike
"Mr Mass Transit" As I take the bus instead of paying Harrison ---> Newark
Wouldn't it have been easier to electrify the flyover entrance to Linden? That wouldn't interfere with freight ops on the Bay Ridge.
The last (south) 3 cars will not open at Metropolitan Ave. station for the next two weekends in accordance with G.O. 3061-01. Contractors will be performing asbestos removal in the Dispatcher's office and the RTO crew room.
Any crews reporting for duty will have to walk to the Fresh Pond Yard Tower instead.
If the TA cared about it's operating employees, they would run 4 car trains to prevent the T/O and C/R from possibly inhaling dust particles. In the south motor, particles could still enter while the train waits to make it's interval, endangering the T/O(on an 8 car train). The C/R has to observe three car lengths or up to the end of the platform whichever comes first. On the eight car train, the location of the office fullfills both criteria. I can't wait to finally earn my college diploma so I can get a nice office job with lots of different perks! I won't have to worry about endangering my health anymore.
4 car trains are really all that's necessary for the M shuttle.
That's very true and I 100% agree with you. But not only have they not cut the trains recently, but if they decided to do it, cold weather plan #1 which has been in effect for about a month now prohibits cutting trains for revenue service. So there goes that idea.
The old station timer has replaced the wheel detectors at Chambers St (J/M) on 1 track. At least that's one less thing for T/O's to worry about.
Perhaps the TA doesn't want any speed restriction devices hampering fleeing trains when the Chambers St. station caves in ...
They were installed but not active for a long time. What prompted them to active them recently and now deactivate them again? It sounds like a big waste of money and I don't get it. I think it's a little excessive having WD's in most places anyway since GT signals seem to work fine as they are.
Shawn.
Yes Folks, Another R 36 Mainline set has arrived to the # 7 line at 11 30 PM tonight. There were NO R 33 SINGLES on this consist. It was a solid 10 car set. The car #s are 9536-9539 9542-9547. What happened to 9540 and 9541? If any one knows please post up. Thank you. It sounds like the Mainline invasion has begun.
Wow! The arrivals of R142s/R142As make two sets of R33s migrate from #2 to #4, and two sets of R36 mainlines migrate from #6 to #7.
Chaohwa
They'll probably stick in an R-33 between 9537 and 9538 for revenue service.
They will put a single car on the Mainline R 36 set it will probably be connected to 9546 and 9536. 9547 will be the north motor and 9539 will be the south motor. Also heres another weird lash up 9556 is connected to the world series single car R 33s 9327. after 9327 is 9600 9601 9691 9690 then I couldnt see the other 4 WF R 36 GE cars. 9557 is the north motor on that train. Again with ANOTHER GE consist.
I rode the SF muni "F" historical trolley line today, and it was a blast! All along the embarcadero they can wrap the controller around between every stop, and the track is all newly laid and real smooth.
I love museums, but to ride on a historic car that is fighting street traffic and taking on passengers who are commuting and not just riding really makes it seem more "real" some how.
I highly reccomend it, over and above the cable cars, which are like an amusement park ride now.
In SF for the week,
Dave
PS, FYI: the street trackage on Fremeont street is now completely gone, as the trolleys no longer loop at the transbay terminal.
I'm always impressed with any of the rail operations in San Francisco but particularly the "F"line. I was up there alst month, and even my wife now asks if we can "ride the old trolleys" for fun!! She loves them, and my 17-year old stepson also really likes them better than anything else.
The speed runs on the Embarcadero are particularly impressive. I was in the back of the blue/yellow double-ender watching the speedometer hit 48 miles an hour....only problem was, the operator was a bit heavy on the brakes all the time, so the car was filled with that not-so-pleasant "hot brakes" aroma.
I will be sending pictures of almost all the cars in the next few days to Dave Pirmann for NY Subway Resources. I just found the packet of all the photos I took on the very first day of "F" line operation a few years ago. Sure was fun watching THAT parade, especially with the help of one of the SFPD traffic officers. She parked her three-wheeler at Noe & Market, and let me sit in it while taking all my pictures, if only I'd just call her over from where she was directing traffic in the middle of the street if she got a call!
I've heard that Frisco was getting more Milan Peter Witts, great. But also wondering, pardon my lack of knowledge, whether that Milan is phasing them out? I hope not.
For those who still love the looks, sounds, and feel of the classic trolleys [or traction generally] assuming Milan still has a good fleet of them I recommend Milan if you're planning a trip. I was there in Oct. 98 and was joyed with the Witts running on sveral lines 24/7. Until then I believed no such place existed. No rush hours only, or one line only...just like turning the calendar back 50 years.
I rode Milan cars both out and back yesterday, MUNI has about six of them now. They have fare boxes, radios, and something I'd never seen on MUNI before:
A box that had buttons for "L", "R", blue(blank), and "CALL" These four buttons would all flash approaching street lights and turnouts.
On the way back in, we made an extra loop near the ferry building, and to select the non-normal route, the motorman reached up and held the "L" button until the point moved. To this point I thought that MUNI still used current-sensing track switches. The Boeing LRV's had a shunt switch to effect this.
Is there something new going on here?
Dave
Steve...
Thanks!!
I haven't been able to get out to SF since the Embarcadero branch opened (after having gone out there in 96, 98, and 99). Maybe this year I'll get to go back out...
-Dave
New York Waterway announced that shuttlebus service to and from the East 34th ferry terminal would terminate Feb 2 and that the ferry service would terminate March 2. Story in Saturday's Times.
Seems kinda silly to eliminate the bus service a month earlier than the ferry service, doesn't it?
Peace,
ANDEE
It provides a disincentive for riding the ferry, reinforcing the notion that the service wasn't necessary anyway!
True, but since they have already announced the the ferry service is to be discontinued anyway it just doesn't make much sense. I mean, if they discontinued the bus service w/o continuing the ferry service as a ploy to drive down patronage then it would make more sense to me.
Peace,
ANDEE
I'd better stop procrastinating and ride one of these days if I am to continue my quest to ride all NYNJCT area ferries. As I recall the fare is $1.50. This boat brings pretty much every person who rides the 4:54 PM LIC express.
I assume the free Queens Surface bus (Q69) will go as well?
Bob, Would you believe that no one told QSC ... our Q69 is the bus service on the other side of the East River. I'm giving a copy of your post & the Times article to our Transportation VP.
Thanks to Bob & Dave the company realy got it's money's worth for this connection today !
Disclaimer: I'm not a official spokesperson for nycDOT, Port Auth, or my employeer.
Mr t__:^)
Hi everyone its been a week or 2 since I gave my last update of being a Student C/R.
I finished posting on the IRT. It went good the only bad day I had was Tuesday on the No.1 Line where some homeless person went crazy and was attacking people on my train. This had to happen at 137 St southbound during the AM Rush Hour. So we spent 5 Minutes waiting for Police that never came. So Control Center told us to signal in route for police. Now this made the rest of my run a Nightmare. Jammed platform with everyone trying to fit in the train when they can't. Then the real kicker is I had holding lights at 96 Street for 3 Minutes.
Then the rest of the week was the Final and Practical. I passed all of the above and the T.S.S told me I am offically a Conductor. All thats left now is the 2 Days of R 142 Training then I'm on my own starting Wednesday as Extra Extra Extra. I did request the PM Tour so hopefully they keep me mainly PM'S.
The Lines I like the best are the 1,4,5,6 Lines The like I don't like are the No.3 and 7 Lines.
>>>It went good the only bad day I had was Tuesday on the No.1 Line where some homeless person went crazy and was attacking people on my train.<<<
That was the line superintendent. He probably didn't get his christmas bonus this year.
>>>The Lines I like the best are the 1,4,5,6 Lines The like I don't like are the No.3 and 7 Lines.<<<
In the IRT, I loved the 4,5,7. Everything else blew big monkey wang.
Congrats, guy! Trial by fire ... welcome to the fraternity and sisterhood! Railheads are a great bunch to hang out with and you're on your way. Now it's all a question of how long you'll sit back in the middle before you want to take on school car so you can see out the front on that special angle.
Step lively and watch the closing doors!
Thanks!!
I hope to move up front within 6 Years. After all the SUPT of RTO Training said we have to wait 5 Years for the next Exam.
Well THAT chews it ... I was lucky in my own timing, got hired up as a blue suit with a badge and hat back in 1971 at the tail end of the "massive retirements" ... once we got handed our S keys and our "report to" papers, they were already trying to sell us recruits on school car ... I was a conductor on Brighton/concourse for almost 6 months before the motorman exam was given, I did it, did well and got called up 6 weeks later ... back in those days they actually had dummy platforms setup at Coney and they rushed us through.
At the time they were shorter on crews than on rolling stock and that says something about the TA's desperation at the time. The mighty IND was shedding bodies like there was no tomorrow, most having their "time in and taking it" ... it was the very last relay of the gravy train. :)
I found that being a train nut and then going to work for the mighty geese haulers didn't work out well - I washed out after some minor anticlimber damage on a layup at Coney (back then, they put you on switching before letting you out on revenue) and that was my ticket out of there - option was to do pump car duty or quit, so I decided to quit. In my own situation, it was a brake failure but then again, when you damage company equipment, didn't much matter what caused it. :)
Got a better deal out of Gonerail - had friends and dispatchers that would let me play with mightier units ... amazing what can get hired up when there's a labor crunch.
But to this day, I am STILL grateful as someone 50 years old of being handed the handles of the mighty R1/9'ers back when I managed to have "the touch" as my instructor put it - rookies were not handed pre-war cars routinely since there was fresh meat coming on and the "cake assignments" had already done the rounds. Anyone in my rookie group that WANTED the "wrecks" were more than welcome to have them. Cantankerous beasties they were but they gave me a ... trip cock. Heh.
Spent my entire time with few exceptions on R1/9's with two trips on a 44, quite a few on 32's (HATED them because you HAD TO announce) and the 44 I did the two trips on was screwed up (C/R at the time) - went and pushed for the bing-bong and it sounded like a messed up 8 track. Did a bbbwwwiiing-bwwwwong" instead of the familiar doorbell sound. Earned a 10-9 under it but hey, it was the guy up front that took the fall ... I just got taken off duty even though I had no idea of what had happened other than the pawnbroker lights never went down at 59th.
May your stripy boards always line up and may you always give indication. Two buzzes, let's go. :)
Whoops! It was a 32 with the 8-track distorto version of the doorbell and it was one of the first 24 cars that came in. They were just *SO* screwed up ... died in service so many times after delivery as to be pathetic. Wonder if they ever fixed them. Nah ... :)
But man ... I still get an ... angle cock ... for the old high iron. Gimme my door shim (also handy for breaking off bad shoes) and handles and keys to a mighty R1 and it's better than sex. Well ... hmmm ... yeah.
The 10 weeks as a motorman was the best part of the trip. Even did some cutting - what a rush it was hearing about that from some of the other folks here - got shown how to do it (with flashcards and all) and only ever had to do it once. Natch, not on my own. Damned RCI's with their "oh yeah? Show me." Heh. Had a controller fall apart in my lap once - that was also part of the "well, it needs some TLC, but it'll run" days when I worked in the "anything can happen equipment blues band" days of the mighty "ta" ...
Seriously, though I was born and raised in the Bronx (Born 1950) and Lo-V's were a childhood experience, I moved out of the city in 1976 to New Paltz and then to the (no joke) "Little town of Bethlehem" (just south of the city (?) of Albany) ... but the time I put in with the "ta" (New York City Transit Authority - intercourse this MTA crap) was the very happiest year and change I've spent.
The ta was, despite its many anal and irrational qualities, a wonderful place to work - the old-timers had great stories and would show you unnatural acts you could perform with the pre-war cars (ever see a standard with the governors cut out? Faster than a ten car consist of R1's with motors on every car and faster than a redbird without timers on a downhill) that nobody in their right mind would consider doing. I really enjoyed myself even if the supervisors proved on a regular basis why the old-timers were quitting in droves. It was a time when interlocks hissed. (and you were allowed in a tower)
Nothing sucked worse than rush hour split shift duty and deadheading to the other end of the railroad to report ... I lived in the Bronx at the 205th street station of the D. Where was my crew call? Coney or Brighton. One trip, layover, do it again in 6 hours. Not fun.
But the "ta" was also an adventure ... savor it ... it's a nice place to play as long as you can forgive the rectal-cranial intercession. This MTA stuff, I don't know. But fun is what you make of it and it sounds like you're there ... I still remember how delicious that was.
In previous posts you have mentioned something called a "butt-plug", satisfy my kinky curiousity and explain what that was, please.
Peace,
ANDEE
GREAT story, keep 'em commin'. Thanks!
Peace,
ANDEE
Nothing but luck to you
Peace,
ANDEE
All the best, Pelham Bay Dave, Jr.!
If you ever are aware of a "father/son" crew about to happen, let me know and I'll see if I can get some press coverage.
Will see what happens. Starting Wednesday I'll be on the road by myself. It seems like the days been going fast. Its hard to believe I been a Student Conductor for 5 weeks.
Tomorrow is my Birthday so everything has happened with great timing.
Thanks for your Support!
Congrats Dave:
I wish you all the best and hopefully, I will join you there as well.
Train#1988Mike
I wish you all the best!
The FRA has just anounced some rule changes regarding locomotive toilets. Basically every leading or occupied locomotive must have compliant toilet facilities. Exceptions include:
Switch Engines
Engines in transfer service
Commuter Service
Class III RR's where facilities are provided en route
Historic and Senic RR's.
Basically during a locomotive's daily inspection the toilet facilities will be judged compliant or non-compliant. To be compliant a tiolet must have:
Adequate ventilation
A supply of tiolet paper
a washing system
trash can
door closure w/ lock
potable water
tiolet sanitized and sucked
You see, if the FRA was in charge of the subway, bathrooms would improve dramatically. Maybe we'll see better bathrooms on the PATH. The rules require compliant facilities to be made available if none exist on the locomotives.
"Maybe we'll see better bathrooms on the PATH"
Wouldn't PATH be considered commuter service?
"You see, if the FRA was in charge of the subway, bathrooms would improve dramatically."
We are talking about bathrooms in locomotives, are we not? Based on the exceptions, I doubt that the subway system would be required since they did stipulate "except where facilities are provided enroute".
Again, we are not talking about bathroom facilities for customers but for the crews of trains. I would disagree with the FRA exempting commuter RRs. What is the difference between the engineer's kidneys on an AMTRAK run from Penn Station - Albany and the LIRR run from Penn Station - Montauk?
Commuter RR's must provide wayside facilities. Sorry I forgot to mention that. Same w/ Class III's. Also on commuter lines there is only one man in the cab so the train would have to be very delayed for an engineer to take a station break. Most commuter runs last no more than 1.5 hours. Freight trains can get stuck out in the middle of nowhere during 12 hours shifts.
Basically during a locomotive's daily inspection the toilet facilities will be judged compliant or non-compliant. To be compliant a tiolet must have:
Adequate ventilation
A supply of tiolet paper
a washing system
trash can
door closure w/ lock
potable water
tiolet sanitized and sucked
Most toilets in office buildings wouldn't meet those standards!
What office building do you work in -- non union understaffed janitors
What office building do you work in -- non union understaffed janitors
Au contraire ... my building is owned by the Carpenter's Union, which has its HQ and training session on the upper floors. I doubt any non-union tradesmen would dare enter the place.
Anyone who has been ever on a locomotive particularly those old clunkers with straight hoppers can appreciate what FRA has done, P*H*E*W and as for chemical systems -- Inca Gold ain't exactly yummy.
Inca Gold?
Inca Gold is the chemical used with retention type locomotive toilets. It adds it's own distinctive fragrance to that of the toilet, helping to make a cab ride a memorable experience. 8~>
Is that the same blue chemical used in "porta potties" and Greyhound buses?
Nice emoticon!
This does include MU trains, I suppose. Once on the New Haven Line, the train was stopped at a station when the engineer got out of the cab and walked to the bathroom at the back of the car. The train was still on time! (less that 6 minutes late)
Commuter trains are exempt IF bathrooms are provided en-route. However because of the short travel times I would expect the RR to expect its employees to go before the go.
The Congress Heights, Southern Avenue, Naylor Road, Suitland, and Branch Avenue WMATA Green Line Stations open next Saturday, January 13, at 8 AM. There are ceremonies at Southern Avenue at 10:30 and Branch Avenue at noon. Free rides are available at those 5 stations from 10 AM until 4 PM. Is anyone other than Chao Hwa or me planning on going?
I may go. I can't count on it, but I may make it.
I have put a few pictures of a Snow Emergency Train on my website www.zdeno.com (I have provided a link below). A friend of mine who works for NYCT donated these to my website so that is why the quality of these pictures is slightly poorer than most on the website. I have also included close ups of the coupling used between the diesel locomotives and the R68's. The link to the SET train is the first one on the right side of the website (under the "latest updates" section).
Last month I had the most visitors for one month in the websites history.
I update it with new photos every two weeks so please continue to visit.
The Other Side Of The Tracks- The Largest Collection Of Current NYC Subway Photos In The World
-Harry
Diesel 51?!? It gets used on the IRT Snow Emergency Train with the R-62As, but they also use it with the R-68s as I have found out.
51 and 54 were being used on the A Division SET and departed East 180th Street last Sunday, what day did your friend take pictures of the R-68 Snow Emergency Train?
-Stef
I'm not sure offhand- I think they were taken about a year ago for a presentation he was about the winter operations plan.
-Harry
I'm not sure offhand- I think they were taken about a year ago for a presentation he was giving about the winter operations plan.
-Harry
THANKS! Harry.
Peace,
ANDEE
Just a question that's been bugging me for a while...
When the IRT first opened how was the rolling stock put into the system? It was all underground so I don't know how they went about getting it in there. I looked at the IRT book on this website but couldn't find an explanation.
Thanks,
Harry
If my understanding is correct, cars entered the system through the old 147th Street Yard, on the Lenox Av Line, with a ramp coming off the Harlem River. The 2nd Avenue Elevated tested the some of the cars during that time and cars were floated on a barge up the river towards 147th Street.
-Stef
Stef is 100% correct, IIRC.
Peace,
ANDEE
Andee,
Another thing to take note of, is that cars could also be transferred by the old 1905 Bronx connection between the 3rd Av and the Subway (namely what is the 2/5 at present). There's a picture in Joe Cunningham's Book on the IRT, showing a Composite Car being pulled by a Steamer on this connection.
It was possible to route elevated trains from 2nd and 3rd Avenues up the West Farms El, using Freeman Street as a terminus. The connection was used from 1905 to 1946.
Imagine that! Trains leaving Jackson Av and heading south could go into the subway, or continue on the el on Westchester Av and merge with the 3rd Av el at 149th Street. I always wondered why the support columns rise above the tracks as we head into the tunnel at 3rd Av, now I know what it was for....
Actually the supports near the portal weren't for running over Westchester Ave to the el at 149 st.While there was such a connection there was also the Bergen Ave cutoff that ran from over the subway portal to 143 st/3rd bypassing 149 st and relieving pressure there.
Let's say you leave Jackson on a 2nd or 3rd Ave train via Bergen next stop would have been 143 st. [upper level only BTW].
FYI delivery of the 1938 Worlds Fair IRT cars if I interpret the story right as they were going direct to Queens was into the 2nd/3rd Ave. el connection off the Harlem River..from the New Haven, and then via 2nd Ave el-Queensboro Bridge to Corona Yard.
Bigedirtmanl writes:
>Actually the supports near the portal weren't for running over >Westchester Ave to the el at 149 st.
This is unclear to me. You mean to say that el trains transversing the connector didn't go up and over the subway tracks going to/coming from the portal? Maybe I should check a track map.
>While there was such a connection there was also the Bergen Ave >cutoff that ran from over the subway portal to 143 st/3rd bypassing >149 st and relieving pressure there.
>Let's say you leave Jackson on a 2nd or 3rd Ave train via Bergen >next stop would have been 143 st. [upper level only BTW].
Agreed. This was the Bergen Av Cutoff, constructed in 1917 as an addition to the original 1905 connection, in which trains could skip 149th Street in it's entirety.
>FYI delivery of the 1938 Worlds Fair IRT cars if I interpret the >story right as they were going direct to Queens was into the 2nd/3rd >Ave. el connection off the Harlem River..from the New Haven, and >then via 2nd Ave el-Queensboro Bridge to Corona Yard.
You're right! There's a picture of this in Joe Cunningham's IRT Book in which gate cars are pulling two 1938 World's Fair Motors onto the el from the connection with the New Haven. And with that said, the Flushing Line's connection with the rest if the IRT was the Queensboro Bridge.
-Stef
My mention of the track layout was in my visual imagination from years of riding.As the Westchester-WPR el curves toward the subway you can visually follow Westchester Ave..where it meets 3rd is just north of 149 st station so I assumed I was right. I Have checked the track map in "Tracks of NY-Vol 3" from the ERA and it about proves the initial info correct..that the pillars near the portal were for the Bergen cutoff only. Hope I've been of some help///the irt-manhattan L man.
At the time of the original Broadway construction, there were no other outlets to the surface at the time except the 125th St Viaduct and I do not know how any thing would have got up there unless a temporary connection existed from some trolley tracks to the south tunnel portal as that via was the last portion of the original route completed before the opening day of Oct 24, 1904. The Lenox Ave portion opened a month later. Some cars had to be put into the system well before opening day for test purposes. Could there have also been a temporary ramp built somewhere to effect equipment loading before the subway ROW was covered again by the new Broadway street surface.
Does anyone know why they were not runing today. I rode one on the 6 today but when I went to go on the 2 they were not rolling
Robert
I don't know what I was thinking when I put in the subject line in the first post. This is what I ment.
Meant? Ment? Have a MINT, pal...
:)
I went to the Atwater Kent Museum of Philadelphia City History today. I was disappointed by the amount of transit-related material; I seem to remember there having been more the last time I visited about two years ago. Their exhibition space is tiny compared to their collection, so they can only display a fraction of their warehouses' contents at a given time. There were a few really detailed maps from the 1700's, 1901 and 1935. There was a cool photo of Market St. looking West from just before 2nd St. All the trolley tracks made a big loop just before the intersection, and it was packed with cars. It was almost a continuous line of them for blocks in both directions. Also cool was an exhibit of artifacts discovered during the building of the CC Commuter Tunnel in the early 1980's. Apparently it went through a free Black church and cemetery from around 1800 that had been completely forgotten. Only the church's foundation was found, and that was many feet under the current ground level, under a factory of some sort built before the Civil War. For only $3, it was well worth it, especially since urban history is as much a passion of mine as transit. If you're in Philly with an hour or two to kill, check it out.
There's an Atwater Kent museum in Philly? I have an Atwater Kent radio. model 84, 1931. Still works, too, or did the last time I tried it. Not bad for "unreliable tube equipment" :)
Yep, that's how the original endower of the museum made his money. The early industrialist started with automotive electrical components (he patented the first spark-plug/electric starter), then expanded to radio parts and then radios. During WWI he made rifle sights and munition components.
The people who take the G can't get the E/F/R during this GO. Why didn't they end R service at 57/7 and run the G to 71st?
They're running shuttle buses between Court Sq, 23/Ely, Queens Plaza, and 21st Queensbridge. Problem solved.
[The people who take the G can't get the E/F/R during this GO. Why didn't they end R service at 57/7 and run the G to 71st? ]
Wouldn't terminating R at 57/7 inconvinience significantly more people. G riders connect, with that GO theis options still remain L, J and M, A/C, F.
Arti
Both tracks just north of Queens Plaza will be out of service to replace the diamond crossover.
This will take more than one weekend. It will take two, possibly 3, if the Jay St and Continental ave crossover replacements are any indication. I guess they only posted it for one weekend so they can analyze the passenger and train traffic flow, to see if any changes to this new option of rerouting is necessary (of course the first would be the elimination of the R if things get too congested).
That's true. On another psoting, I talked about a supplement schedule to add running time. I think that goes on for 6 weeks. Why these posters are for one weekend I just don't know!
Work lights are up and lit at Queens Plaza North of the Station this AM.
The switch is now out of service, and it is blocked. No crossover moves can be made. The switch will be replaced, hence the need for this weekends' G.O. I don't know why the large posters are for one weekend only. The work will probably take 6 weekends, the last of which be most likely Presidents Day weekend when the concrete will be poured. Look for the new switch to be part of Queensboro Master Tower.
Could somebody tell what line did the R17s finished is days? Which R17s were painted in redbird red (I know that 6688 was one which were the others)? I know that there were a set of greenbird green running back in the 1980s which R17 6677 was one & R33 8843 with R22 7075 what were the other car #s that were painted in greenbird green?
i remember them in1972- 1976 fast wonderful rugged strong !
retired too soon if you ask me!!
also i liked the r-21-22s & the split open storm "railfan window"
Nice!!!
When new the R17 storm door windows could open too. Just for information. Guess that feature was just let go over the years.
That's true. My Trolley Museum Colleague took the time to service the rotating storm door window which hadn't worked in years. As time goes on, we're going to attempt to bring the car back in time, before the TA Modifications.....
-Stef
What was the logic behind these doors with windows which could open? Perhaps the designers thought that windows which could be opened would allow the storm doors to remain closed during the summer, still allowing good air circulation. Those latched open doors on some of the non AC'd cars made for ear splitting rides during the summer.