Today at around 5:45 P.M., I was at the 34rd Street station on the 6th Avenue Line, when a D Train arrived on the local track! I got on it, and it stopped at both 23rd and 14th Streets! Fortunately, it proceeded along its regular route after that. However, when I was at West 4th Street, I smelled smoke. What happened to cause all this?
- Lyle Goldman
Perhaps a smoke condition on the express tracks between 34st and W4st. I was thinking a delay in F service but if that were the case, the D would've ran via the F to Kings Hwy and discharged passengers. While I'm on the subject, when the D or Q is rerouted over the F, they discharge at Kings Hwy so that they can go through Coney Island yard in order to get back on the Brighton.
Trouble in the dash! Hope nobody got stuck down there!
> Perhaps a smoke condition on the express tracks between 34st and W4st.
I don't think so. I saw a B train that apparently did go on the express tracks.
> when the D or Q is rerouted over the F, they discharge at Kings Hwy
> so that they can go through Coney Island yard in order to get back
> on the Brighton.
Why do they do that? Wouldn't it be faster just to do a few track moves near
Coney Island Station?
- Lyle Goldman
>>>Why do they do that? Wouldn't it be faster just to do a few track moves near Coney Island Station?<<<
Doing this would block service on the B & N lines. They would also create a risk of totally blocking B/N service in the event of a problem.
And no, it would not be faster.
Today (Sunday) I saw a Queens bound E running on the 6th ave local at 42nd street. And there seemed to be bunching (one train after another) N/B on the 6th ave exp. Someone get stuck in the dash!?
This was all around 11:45am.
> I saw a Queens bound E running on the 6th ave local at 42nd street.
You think that's crazy? A few months ago, I saw a C train on the Brighton Line! It was going northbound somewhere near Newkirk Avenue or Church Avenue. Does anyone have any idea what a C train would be doing there?
- Lyle Goldman
You would have expected that sort of thing 33 years ago when the Chrystie St. connection opened.
Hey, Dave Pirmann, did you recently update the subway line descriptions on nycsubway.org? Some details appear to be missing, but there is nothing about that on the "What's New" page.
- Lyle Goldman
What details appear to be missing?
Minor updates to pages don't get into what's new, but if you look at the pages by date you'll see every little update.
I remember watching one of those "unsolved mystery" shows where they pay $ to anyone with an answer. Anyway there was a derailment of an Amtrak train in the southwest a few years ago, that was found to be a sabatoge. They turned the rail inward, but somehow knew to keep signal wires intact, "fooling" the signal that the track ahead was OK. They said the incident was similar to a sabatoge years ago, and that the people who did the recent one were former RR employees and knew how the tracks and signals worked, and could have posessed a copy of a railroad publication, with an article on the earlier derailment.
So if Amtrak has a system to detect broken rails, why not NYCTA and LIRR, and MNRR?
On the program they said it was some kind of wire that detected track movement.
NYCS, LIAR and Met N all have a system to detect broken rails, its called a track circut. If any rail completely breaks it will interrupt the track circut and set the appropiate signals to stop. On MNRR and the LIAR cab signals are in effect and the engineer will get a restricting even in he is in the same block when the rail breaks. All the Arizona sabotuers did was bridge the break w/ a wire (like the kind you see at rail joints, I call them bizitz-thinggies). It is so easy to sabotauge a railroad and not get caught I'm surprised that more people don't do it.
Not necessarily. There are as you know two running rails. One is a signal rail and the other is the negative return rail. If the negative return rail breaks, it will not create a track circuit and all the signals will still operate normally. The condition that you mentioned only takes effect if the signal rail is the one that is broken.
I do not believe so. I know that some transit systems (like the MFL) use only one rail and the other is simply left un insulated, however all railroad block junctions have both rail joints insulatd. I think that both rails are used in the signal process and I am use that Cab Signal Systems depend on both rails. It might be that one rail is like at +12 and the other is at -12 or something.
The process that I was speaking of only pertains to the NYCTA.
It's scary. Someone could place a big object on the straightaway on the main line in Nassau and derail a train.
Maybe trains should have some kind of radar to detect trouble ahead.
Also on the Oyster Bay line, there is lots of easy track access, it seems migrants walk the tracks all the time, and not get spotted.
A sabotuer could easily get in there as well.
The Oyster Bay line is so slow the LE can probably see if a leaf has fallen on the rail.
The LIRR main line near former Rego Park station is frequently visited by local youths who have nothing better to do (they enter via the old Rockaway line). They throw rocks and spikes at the rails (incl. the third) and at each other from opposite sides of the tracks. One time, they thought it would be fun to see what would happen if they lined up all the spikes on top of the rails of one of the center tracks. They fled when a train approached, fortunately on a different track. I had been watching (this is a good photo spot) and was able to remove them before anything bad could happen (would anything have happened?).
R142's numbered 6346-6350 were just delivered by CP Rail to NY&A Fresh Pond. Exactly 3:30am again. If anything CP Rail seems to always been on time :)
Heads up everyone. I won't be able to make it to Junius today.
Shawn.
I saw the same loco and R12/14 rider car that took 6416-6420 to the Bronx at Linden shops this evening(6:30pm). But 6346-6350 were not in visible sight.
Train#1929Mike
Can you read "Click Once?" I guess WebTV isn't very clear on showing that it is in the process of retrieving a page.
What are you talking about? On my message board, the message appears once. Please email me and elaborate.
3TM
pLeAsE dOn'T kNoCk WeBtV... sOmE oF SuBtAlK's FiNeSt MiNdS aRe WeBtVeRs
LOL....or should that be LoL?
I've said it before and I'll say it again,
You're a sick man RICO
Peace,
ANDEE
I would have stopped the presses. Heypaul actually used his shift key.:-)
I've said it before and I'll say it again,
You're a sick man RICO
Peace,
ANDEE
PS ___ NIAGRA FALLS
....sloowwwly I turn.....
was that andee who said:
NiAgArA<FALLS
Ouch....i'm blind!!!
I love it. Say, Paul, can you make it go any faster?:-)
have you got your seat belts on?
i hope this doesn't blow the internet connection
did you say
FASTER?
TILT!!!!!
I LOVE IT!!!! ROTFLMAO
It's almost as if I'm standing at 81st St. with a northbound A train thundering past in a blaze of teal and white with a deafening roar. Ten cars in about 6 seconds or less.
[....sloowwwly I turn.....]
Doug, check out question #3 in my Abbott & Costello quiz. You might be surprised!!
[....sloowwwly I turn.....]
Doug, check out question #3 in my Abbott & Costello quiz. You might be surprised!!
sarge... i took the test and failed it horribly... i hardly know bud and lou's full length movies... i was remanded to watching the 3 stooges...
...step by step...inch by inch....millimiter by millimeter...(insert name here)'s penis by (insert name here)'s penis...
I kinda miss the Show.
-Hank
Known bug that doesn't only occur with WebTV. If you look, you'll see that every post has the EXACT same date/time, and they also get marked as followed links, even if you don't follow them. Pigs explained the bug a while back when someone got on Salaam's case without first looking at the time stamps.
-Hank
Spare us the insults. Both myself and Train Dude use WebTV. His post only appears once on my list. You're encountering a bug in the system which was elaborated on a while ago. It's completely not SubBus's fault. Subtalk is designed to prevent the repeated postings of identical messages.
Keep the Webtv bashing where it belongs, which is usenet.
StAy CoOl DuDeS, iM oUtTa HeRe
I saw the same loco and R12/14 rider car that took 6416-6420 to the Bronx at Linden shops this evening(6:30pm). But 6346-6350 were not in visible sight.
Train#1929Mike
Can you read "Click Once?" I guess WebTV isn't very clear on showing that it is in the process of retrieving a page.
What are you talking about? On my message board, the message appears once. Please email me and elaborate.
3TM
pLeAsE dOn'T kNoCk WeBtV... sOmE oF SuBtAlK's FiNeSt MiNdS aRe WeBtVeRs
LOL....or should that be LoL?
I've said it before and I'll say it again,
You're a sick man RICO
Peace,
ANDEE
I would have stopped the presses. Heypaul actually used his shift key.:-)
I've said it before and I'll say it again,
You're a sick man RICO
Peace,
ANDEE
PS ___ NIAGRA FALLS
....sloowwwly I turn.....
was that andee who said:
NiAgArA<FALLS
Ouch....i'm blind!!!
I love it. Say, Paul, can you make it go any faster?:-)
have you got your seat belts on?
i hope this doesn't blow the internet connection
did you say
FASTER?
TILT!!!!!
I LOVE IT!!!! ROTFLMAO
It's almost as if I'm standing at 81st St. with a northbound A train thundering past in a blaze of teal and white with a deafening roar. Ten cars in about 6 seconds or less.
[....sloowwwly I turn.....]
Doug, check out question #3 in my Abbott & Costello quiz. You might be surprised!!
[....sloowwwly I turn.....]
Doug, check out question #3 in my Abbott & Costello quiz. You might be surprised!!
sarge... i took the test and failed it horribly... i hardly know bud and lou's full length movies... i was remanded to watching the 3 stooges...
...step by step...inch by inch....millimiter by millimeter...(insert name here)'s penis by (insert name here)'s penis...
I kinda miss the Show.
-Hank
Known bug that doesn't only occur with WebTV. If you look, you'll see that every post has the EXACT same date/time, and they also get marked as followed links, even if you don't follow them. Pigs explained the bug a while back when someone got on Salaam's case without first looking at the time stamps.
-Hank
Spare us the insults. Both myself and Train Dude use WebTV. His post only appears once on my list. You're encountering a bug in the system which was elaborated on a while ago. It's completely not SubBus's fault. Subtalk is designed to prevent the repeated postings of identical messages.
Keep the Webtv bashing where it belongs, which is usenet.
StAy CoOl DuDeS, iM oUtTa HeRe
I saw the same loco and R12/14 rider car that took 6416-6420 to the Bronx at Linden shops this evening(6:30pm). But 6346-6350 were not in visible sight.
Train#1929Mike
Can you read "Click Once?" I guess WebTV isn't very clear on showing that it is in the process of retrieving a page.
What are you talking about? On my message board, the message appears once. Please email me and elaborate.
3TM
pLeAsE dOn'T kNoCk WeBtV... sOmE oF SuBtAlK's FiNeSt MiNdS aRe WeBtVeRs
LOL....or should that be LoL?
I've said it before and I'll say it again,
You're a sick man RICO
Peace,
ANDEE
I would have stopped the presses. Heypaul actually used his shift key.:-)
I've said it before and I'll say it again,
You're a sick man RICO
Peace,
ANDEE
PS ___ NIAGRA FALLS
....sloowwwly I turn.....
was that andee who said:
NiAgArA<FALLS
Ouch....i'm blind!!!
I love it. Say, Paul, can you make it go any faster?:-)
have you got your seat belts on?
i hope this doesn't blow the internet connection
did you say
FASTER?
TILT!!!!!
I LOVE IT!!!! ROTFLMAO
It's almost as if I'm standing at 81st St. with a northbound A train thundering past in a blaze of teal and white with a deafening roar. Ten cars in about 6 seconds or less.
[....sloowwwly I turn.....]
Doug, check out question #3 in my Abbott & Costello quiz. You might be surprised!!
[....sloowwwly I turn.....]
Doug, check out question #3 in my Abbott & Costello quiz. You might be surprised!!
sarge... i took the test and failed it horribly... i hardly know bud and lou's full length movies... i was remanded to watching the 3 stooges...
...step by step...inch by inch....millimiter by millimeter...(insert name here)'s penis by (insert name here)'s penis...
I kinda miss the Show.
-Hank
Known bug that doesn't only occur with WebTV. If you look, you'll see that every post has the EXACT same date/time, and they also get marked as followed links, even if you don't follow them. Pigs explained the bug a while back when someone got on Salaam's case without first looking at the time stamps.
-Hank
Spare us the insults. Both myself and Train Dude use WebTV. His post only appears once on my list. You're encountering a bug in the system which was elaborated on a while ago. It's completely not SubBus's fault. Subtalk is designed to prevent the repeated postings of identical messages.
Keep the Webtv bashing where it belongs, which is usenet.
StAy CoOl DuDeS, iM oUtTa HeRe
I saw the same loco and R12/14 rider car that took 6416-6420 to the Bronx at Linden shops this evening(6:30pm). But 6346-6350 were not in visible sight.
Train#1929Mike
Can you read "Click Once?" I guess WebTV isn't very clear on showing that it is in the process of retrieving a page.
What are you talking about? On my message board, the message appears once. Please email me and elaborate.
3TM
pLeAsE dOn'T kNoCk WeBtV... sOmE oF SuBtAlK's FiNeSt MiNdS aRe WeBtVeRs
LOL....or should that be LoL?
I've said it before and I'll say it again,
You're a sick man RICO
Peace,
ANDEE
I would have stopped the presses. Heypaul actually used his shift key.:-)
I've said it before and I'll say it again,
You're a sick man RICO
Peace,
ANDEE
PS ___ NIAGRA FALLS
....sloowwwly I turn.....
was that andee who said:
NiAgArA<FALLS
Ouch....i'm blind!!!
I love it. Say, Paul, can you make it go any faster?:-)
have you got your seat belts on?
i hope this doesn't blow the internet connection
did you say
FASTER?
TILT!!!!!
I LOVE IT!!!! ROTFLMAO
It's almost as if I'm standing at 81st St. with a northbound A train thundering past in a blaze of teal and white with a deafening roar. Ten cars in about 6 seconds or less.
[....sloowwwly I turn.....]
Doug, check out question #3 in my Abbott & Costello quiz. You might be surprised!!
[....sloowwwly I turn.....]
Doug, check out question #3 in my Abbott & Costello quiz. You might be surprised!!
sarge... i took the test and failed it horribly... i hardly know bud and lou's full length movies... i was remanded to watching the 3 stooges...
...step by step...inch by inch....millimiter by millimeter...(insert name here)'s penis by (insert name here)'s penis...
I kinda miss the Show.
-Hank
Known bug that doesn't only occur with WebTV. If you look, you'll see that every post has the EXACT same date/time, and they also get marked as followed links, even if you don't follow them. Pigs explained the bug a while back when someone got on Salaam's case without first looking at the time stamps.
-Hank
Spare us the insults. Both myself and Train Dude use WebTV. His post only appears once on my list. You're encountering a bug in the system which was elaborated on a while ago. It's completely not SubBus's fault. Subtalk is designed to prevent the repeated postings of identical messages.
Keep the Webtv bashing where it belongs, which is usenet.
StAy CoOl DuDeS, iM oUtTa HeRe
I saw the same loco and R12/14 rider car that took 6416-6420 to the Bronx at Linden shops this evening(6:30pm). But 6346-6350 were not in visible sight.
Train#1929Mike
Can you read "Click Once?" I guess WebTV isn't very clear on showing that it is in the process of retrieving a page.
What are you talking about? On my message board, the message appears once. Please email me and elaborate.
3TM
pLeAsE dOn'T kNoCk WeBtV... sOmE oF SuBtAlK's FiNeSt MiNdS aRe WeBtVeRs
LOL....or should that be LoL?
I've said it before and I'll say it again,
You're a sick man RICO
Peace,
ANDEE
I would have stopped the presses. Heypaul actually used his shift key.:-)
I've said it before and I'll say it again,
You're a sick man RICO
Peace,
ANDEE
PS ___ NIAGRA FALLS
....sloowwwly I turn.....
was that andee who said:
NiAgArA<FALLS
Ouch....i'm blind!!!
I love it. Say, Paul, can you make it go any faster?:-)
have you got your seat belts on?
i hope this doesn't blow the internet connection
did you say
FASTER?
TILT!!!!!
I LOVE IT!!!! ROTFLMAO
It's almost as if I'm standing at 81st St. with a northbound A train thundering past in a blaze of teal and white with a deafening roar. Ten cars in about 6 seconds or less.
[....sloowwwly I turn.....]
Doug, check out question #3 in my Abbott & Costello quiz. You might be surprised!!
[....sloowwwly I turn.....]
Doug, check out question #3 in my Abbott & Costello quiz. You might be surprised!!
sarge... i took the test and failed it horribly... i hardly know bud and lou's full length movies... i was remanded to watching the 3 stooges...
...step by step...inch by inch....millimiter by millimeter...(insert name here)'s penis by (insert name here)'s penis...
I kinda miss the Show.
-Hank
Known bug that doesn't only occur with WebTV. If you look, you'll see that every post has the EXACT same date/time, and they also get marked as followed links, even if you don't follow them. Pigs explained the bug a while back when someone got on Salaam's case without first looking at the time stamps.
-Hank
Spare us the insults. Both myself and Train Dude use WebTV. His post only appears once on my list. You're encountering a bug in the system which was elaborated on a while ago. It's completely not SubBus's fault. Subtalk is designed to prevent the repeated postings of identical messages.
Keep the Webtv bashing where it belongs, which is usenet.
StAy CoOl DuDeS, iM oUtTa HeRe
I saw the same loco and R12/14 rider car that took 6416-6420 to the Bronx at Linden shops this evening(6:30pm). But 6346-6350 were not in visible sight.
Train#1929Mike
Can you read "Click Once?" I guess WebTV isn't very clear on showing that it is in the process of retrieving a page.
What are you talking about? On my message board, the message appears once. Please email me and elaborate.
3TM
pLeAsE dOn'T kNoCk WeBtV... sOmE oF SuBtAlK's FiNeSt MiNdS aRe WeBtVeRs
LOL....or should that be LoL?
I've said it before and I'll say it again,
You're a sick man RICO
Peace,
ANDEE
I would have stopped the presses. Heypaul actually used his shift key.:-)
I've said it before and I'll say it again,
You're a sick man RICO
Peace,
ANDEE
PS ___ NIAGRA FALLS
....sloowwwly I turn.....
was that andee who said:
NiAgArA<FALLS
Ouch....i'm blind!!!
I love it. Say, Paul, can you make it go any faster?:-)
have you got your seat belts on?
i hope this doesn't blow the internet connection
did you say
FASTER?
TILT!!!!!
I LOVE IT!!!! ROTFLMAO
It's almost as if I'm standing at 81st St. with a northbound A train thundering past in a blaze of teal and white with a deafening roar. Ten cars in about 6 seconds or less.
[....sloowwwly I turn.....]
Doug, check out question #3 in my Abbott & Costello quiz. You might be surprised!!
[....sloowwwly I turn.....]
Doug, check out question #3 in my Abbott & Costello quiz. You might be surprised!!
sarge... i took the test and failed it horribly... i hardly know bud and lou's full length movies... i was remanded to watching the 3 stooges...
...step by step...inch by inch....millimiter by millimeter...(insert name here)'s penis by (insert name here)'s penis...
I kinda miss the Show.
-Hank
Known bug that doesn't only occur with WebTV. If you look, you'll see that every post has the EXACT same date/time, and they also get marked as followed links, even if you don't follow them. Pigs explained the bug a while back when someone got on Salaam's case without first looking at the time stamps.
-Hank
Spare us the insults. Both myself and Train Dude use WebTV. His post only appears once on my list. You're encountering a bug in the system which was elaborated on a while ago. It's completely not SubBus's fault. Subtalk is designed to prevent the repeated postings of identical messages.
Keep the Webtv bashing where it belongs, which is usenet.
StAy CoOl DuDeS, iM oUtTa HeRe
Speaking of R-142 deliveries, when will the next new R-142 train start revenue service?
- Lyle Goldman
Article on 63 tunnel stuff
V TRAIN
Peace,
ANDEE
I wonder what kind of equipment will be used on the train.
71-Continental Avenue
Queens
2 Avenue
Manhattan
This is a good point. What will the equipment changes be even for the Manhattan Bridge flop??
Not all the R68 D's are going to be needed 205th St to 24th St your cutting an hour off their run and there is no way in heck that the Slants can cover Brighton local service 24/7 on a 6-8 minute headway (they don't run less than 10 now).
Maybe someone can Follo up with an answer ;-)
From what I've heard, all the 68's are coming out of Concourse to be replaced by 60 ft cars (The is supposed to become 8 cars). As for the cars used for the , I'm not sure.
Also, as I write, channel 7 is getting ready to report this story.
BUZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ
Sorry but that simply is incorrect. The D will remain 8 Car R-68s (14 trains). The B will also be 8-Car R-68s (10 trains).
That's good news. I was worried for a minute. While they may have their downside, I have grown quite fond of the R-68/68As.
Peace,
ANDEE
Love that buzzer!:-)
And who's getting the R68's?
Coney Island? If so then the Q will be Hippos (a nightmere), and the Slants go to the B & D?
I believe both Q lines would be R68's, with the W retaining the R68A's. Better enjoy those slants on the Brighton while you still can.
OOoooohNooooo!!!!!
My feelings exactly.
I suggest that you back up one message and read my post on this subject. It is fact as of 12/01/00 5 PM. As for the Q express, the Q local & the B - you'll just have to wait and see.............
Rim shot!!
I'd assume R32's and R46 cars which are generally assigned to the Jamaica Yard. Can they handle this capacity, even if the G line's cars are transferred to the CI yard?
The August plan has the Q on broadway I guess.
from the article:
"Northern terminal for G trains would be Court Square in Long Island City. Transfers available there to local V and R trains. Access to No. 7 trains possible by walking from Court Square station to nearby depot at 45th Road/Court House Square."
Transfers @ Court Square should be V & E.
Does anyone know the length of the walk to transfer from the G to the E/F. I remember it being quite long, but at the time I was running late, so its probably distorted in my memory.
And would that be a _free_ tranfser to the 7 ?
Can't tell you in feet, but it is a long transfer. You go up the stairs at the east end of the E/F platform @ 23rd/Ely, make a right, walk down a looooooooong corridor past fare control at Citicorp's One Court Sq. building, then down to the 'G' platforms. In fact, the Citi tower's altering the fare control and exits was the reason the formerly nonexistant transfer came into being. The transfer is longer than, say, the one betw. the '6' and the 'E/F' at Lex/51st, but the corridor is much wider and you're not crossing foot traffic and going up and down so many stairs. Frankly, if I'm a 'G' rider, I'm a little p.o.'d though, cause it is quite a hike.
Just thought of a good reference: The corridor connecting the 'E/F' to the 'G' at Court Square can't be much shorter than the one connecting the 'A/C/E' to the IRT and BMT at 42nd Street. Also, there's currently no free transfer to the 'G' from the '7' at 45 Rd.
I think they're considering making a free transfer connection, and I'm surprised this didn't get mentioned.
If they insist on cutting the back at Court Sq., then the people in Greenpoint should demand more B61 service, and this now follows the route all the way to Queens Plaza for an easier connection to Queens Blvd.
A little off topic but... I think they're should to build a connection from Lorimer on the J line to Broadway on the G line. I had invisioned this connection for a while. It wouldn't be that long of a walkway. It's just the matter of digging it up :)
Shawn.
And I'm sure the schedules will not reflect the time needed to walk the transfer. Late night connections are going to be ugly.
We've been speculating about the service pattern for two years, and no one is predicted what they are doing. Merge a local onto the express tracks at Queens Plaza, while running an express through 63rd? Huh?
I guess they think the delays that will result from the switching are offset by the need to attract people to the V, by offering the transfer to 51st Street. Should have just had local riders wait for the R, and transfer at 51st Street.
Better yet, build the Second Avenue Subway and run two trains through 63rd St, one of which turns down Second Avenue, as originally intended.
Could be merging problems at 47-50, where F trains from 63rd street and V trains from 53rd, merge onto the local track.
In the Daily News, the V will be using 53rd street, not 63rd street.
I thought it would make more sense to put the V through 63rd. Having only one line in the 63rd street tunnel doesn't seem to make sense. Doesn't 63rd street have a higher capacity than 53rd?
Also, by running N and W trains to Astoria, does give Queens residents better service, but can 60th street tunnel handle three lines (N,R,and W).
I assume the TA will keep N and R in the Montague tunnel and lower Manhattan route, since service cannot be reduced to lower Manhattan by running just an R train through there.
I guess Q and W will go across the H tracks.
I wonder if the W will bypass Dekalb? Hopefully the N line will get some rush hour service across the bridge though.
It is about 250 yards, give or take a few ells.
wayne
I'd love to see someone who knows about rail topics to do these articles. The last new route was NOT the Q, as the articles states was. It was the Z, born on 12-12-88. Not counting the double letter eliminations of 1985, what was the last completely new route before then? The KK, born on 7-1-68?
The Times article made Saturday's paper.
from the article:
"To get to work, Ms. Pean takes the F train at 179th Street and changes at Union Turnpike for the E train to the World Trade Center. But often the trains are so crowded she cannot get on, or she misses her connection and waits "
This proves that an average commueter is not very smart. She would have much better chance (and faster commute) if she would change at W4th Street + A C & E to pick from.
Arti
These are the same people who can't cope with the concept of a split local/express or who try to get on the Culver shuttle. They have no idea what the maps in stations and cars are for, either.
Many years ago, a friend of mine was a recruiter for a temp agency in midtown. Part of their hiring test was requiring basic familiarity with the subways in Manhattan, so they wouldn't look like idiots sending out someone who couldn't figure out where places like Rock Ctr or WTC were. Unfortunately, they had to drop the transit awareness (along with the basic competency tests) in the 1980s because some dimwit claimed they were "discriminatory" against minorities. Their business declined rapidly not long after because they'd send out people who got completely lost, and if they did show up, couldn't even read. Nothing like "diversity".
Maybe she'd prefer to wait a bit longer than to climb two flights at W4.
I'd say climbing two flights is easyer than riding a packed train from Union Tpke.
Arti
i've been pretty bored with the message board lately, especially with some people's nasty comments about the new r142's... i decided to go back and study the archives and see if i could close out any open cases.. i found this message from lou...this question is over 2 1/2 years old... has there been any progress at getting any answer?...
www.nycsubway.org > SubTalk Archives > Stange Memo to Q Drivers? (1131)
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Stange Memo to Q Drivers?
Posted by Lou from Brooklyn on Wed Mar 11 20:15:18 1998
This morning at 47-50 Rock it seemed a supervisor (well he wasn't in a uniform with radio and clipboard) was handing out papers to only Q train operators. He even made them SIGN for them (yup print and sign name).
Isn't this a strange way to hand out information?? How is every Q Train Operator going to get one? Way not do this at the terminal now one stop away? The tower also had more people in it than usual (one person most of the time). There was a SLIGHT delay to customers, the train was closed up way before the train operator had signed for his handout.
I saw the handouts to two Q trains before my F(orever) showed up.
Hey I remember that, never got an answer...
The tower now is on automatic ("KNOW YOUR LINEUP, WHAT YOU PUNCH IS WHAT YOU GET") but there is 9 times out of 10 a supervisor there each morning.
I love that sign. If they had just had more space they could have continued "Don't some crying to us if you screw this up!"
HeyPaul or anyone else for this matter, do you think you can write a letter on these delays, specifically noting the observations of the delays, duration and the questioning of the reasoning behind it. I have a complaint against various supervisors against this practice, as it distracts the employees from the safety factors of operations, the double-checking of the signals and previous signalling, and it keeps the train OFF SCHEDULE. Forward the letters to the respective line supterintendants. Tell them you feel you should get your $1.50 worth with UNHINDERED, expedited movement of train service, that teaching belongs in the classroom. No pun intended HeyPaul.
LOL, very original.
Hi,
Do you recall that there was (is?) a piece of art somewhere in the subway tunnel system that is made of many sections. It is designed to be viewed from the moving train so that as the sections move by the viewer's window, they form a kind of animation. It's just like the way frames of film passing through a movie projector create the illusion of motion.
It's been some 30 years since I saw it, may be long gone. If it still exists, please tell me where, which train, etc.
Thanks,
Mike B
digiboy@erols.com
That was they old Myrtle Ave Station, you saw it leaving Dekalb Ave when going over the Manhattan Bridge. The station is still there >G< but the display fell into disrepair and was never upkept.
It was called MassTransiscope and, while still there, it no longer works.
--Mark
According to news reports on News 12 and in Newsday, a man bought two east bound tickets at the Syosset station yesterday. He ran around the downed gates in an attempt to catch the eastbound train before it left the station.. He didn't look to his left and was killed by a w/b train.
His teenage son saw the whole thing. Nice memory for the kid to have to live with.
Here's the link.
To paraphrase, No one ever went broke betting on the stupidity of the public!. Just another bit of proof.
Sorry his teenage son had to witness this incident. There seems to be a huge lack of common sense nowadays. People don't think or rationalize before they do things. We hear this all the time especially when someone drives around downed crossing gates or squeezes in between two passenger cars as their train leaves the station. How long does it take to stop and think that you may be gambling your life away, one second ?
Bill "Newkirk"
Well, it happened again. Tonight a friend called me at 5:30 looking for a ride. Her train was stuck in Farmingdale due to another incident. It seems that a Diesel traveling west struck a car at Straight Path (Wyandanch). We went by the scene at about 6:30 PM. The vehicle was flattened beyond belief. No official word as yet but I can't imagine anyone surviving that incident. The diesel (running light) must have been traveling close to MAS at the time of impact.
I saw it on the news. It looked like the final resting place was by the Wyandanch station since cars parked head in were visible. I live in Deer Park. I heard trains passing by approximately 7:30.
It looked like the final resting place was by the Wyandanch station
And the driver's final resting place is by the Pinelawn station.
It was only through sheer dumb luck that I was saved from a long delay. I had taken the train from Medford today. Coming home, I was planning to take the 5:22 to Ronkonkoma, connecting to Medford. I got to Penn about 5:15 and decided to make a quick visit to the men's room (not that anyone could imagine anything but a quick visit to that hell-hole!) As I passed the police desk right by the entrance to the waiting areas and restrooms, I heard the police radio say something about a car-train collision at Wyandanch. I immediately inquired and was told that there probably would be major delays. So I called my wife, asked her to pick me up at Patchogue, and got on the 5:36 to Babylon/Patchogue. I didn't hear a general P.A. announcement of the incident until almost 5:35.
Had it not been for the detour to the men's room, I would have walked right onto the 5:22 and gotten stuck in Hicksville or Farmingdale for a couple of hours.
I witnessed a close call at the Shrewsbury Avenue crossing in Red Bank on Friday afternoon myself. I was the second vehicle in line at the crossing, headed south; the gates were down (full gates, including the sidewalk on the east side of the street) because of an east/northbound train stopped at the Red Bank station. Just as that train began crossing, a motorcyclist pulled up to the right (west side) of the vehicle in front of me and stopped. The gates did not come up as they usually do after the train clears the crossing, so the motorcyclist proceeded around the gates and lights on the grassy shoulder and across the tracks, narrowly avoiding being struck by a west/southbound train headed for the Red Bank station.
Where's a cop when you need one?
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
In my motorcycle club, we refer to people who do stupid things like that or even ride between lanes of traffic. We refer to them as Future Organ Donors".
That sounds like what we called them when we got them in the Emergency Room. Usually they were too mangled to be of any use to anybody.
Wnybody who rides a motorcycle is probably a future organ donor. That's why they call them donor-mobiles. Did you know that there is a statistical trend b/t increased motorcycle helmet use and decreased organ availibility? I say if some big cycle guy dosen't want to wear a helmet I say more power to him. I could save 5 people's lives.
Did you know that there is a statistical trend b/t increased motorcycle helmet use and decreased organ availibility?
Yes. That's because even a minor accident will kill you if you're not wearing a helmet, because your head will be mush or your neck will be broken even if the rest of you isn't too badly damaged. With a helmet it's the destruction of the rest of you that kills you.
I haven't ridden since 1976, but I wore my helmet faithfully when I did ride. Fortunately, I never had to find out how effective it was.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I did, on a bicycle. I was knocked down by a passing car, and smacked my head on the curb hard enough to crack the plastic shell on the helmet. Of course, the foam was shattered as it was supposed to.
-Hank
I've been riding since 1966. Ages in my club are late 30s to early 60s and we have a very impressive safety record. That's because we ride sanely and defensively.
"Darwin Award Candidate" would be another good term.
It's amazing how many careless people there are around trains. People stick their arms, hands, even their strollers, in train doors as they are closing. They are in such a rush, that they cannot think rationally. It seems people are loosing common sense, and that can be a deadly mistake, whether running on platforms, holding doors, and crossing when gates are down. There has to be more patrol and stiffer punishment for violators.
Guys, you must understand that there are people out there who have a sign on their forheads which reads "VACANT - THIS SPACE FOR RENT".
Yes, and a few of them post on this board :-)
(So far not in this thread, however.)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I agree with you, but I think the punishment for this guy was pretty stiff. He's a stiff now (HAHAHA).
This and the accident in Wyandanch were real tragedies. To call the victims idiots shows that SOME railfans on this board can be really insensitive and heartless!!!
How would you refer to someone who goes around closed gates and into the path of oncoming traffic? It's just like jaywalking or running a red light, only your survival chance is much lower.
-Hank
Yeah, they are a tragedy all right...for the crews of the trains who had to deal with all the paperwork and reoccuring "visions" of what happened -- and all those who had to endure the delays caused by some stupid ass fool that thought they could save two seconds and beat a train.
Numbskulls.
This whole damned island is full of them.
wayne
Numbskulls.
This whole damned island is full of them.
wayne
In the loby of 101 Hudson St in Jersey City they have a nice size deplay of Loinel trains for the holiday. its at least a 20 x 20 2 track lay-out
One of our vault pullers stoped buy to say hello & we got to talking about MC collecting. He's one of three men who see most of the fleet every night & the "Capture Bin" attached to the farebox that HAS been a good place to find MCs. It seems that folks aren't turning them in in the same rate they used to, plus drivers & cleaner/shifter are also grabbing them. The result is my friend only sees a few now.
I've notice the same decreased quantity when I go out on my lunch hour and walk thru our yard.
Others have reported much less volume of cards in and around the subway stations. AND it's been reported that "Fun Passes" are gettting harder to aqcquire, i.e. the cheepest way to get a new card.
For those that have been doing it for a while this may turn out to be a benifit, i.e. if you have a lot of old cards you'll be able to trade them for cards that folks have had to buy (my friend's oldest card is the Michael J. Fox Spin City one, so he doesn't have any "blue" ones, plus he doesn't have a complete set of Millennial Journeys).
As many of you know I love to TRADE cards & this includes those from other cities (special thanks to my friends in Atlanta, Chicago & San Fran). So, for me the recent trend toward buying & selling may come back to trading /swaping.
If I go to the next show on my birthday (Dec. 9th) I may be pleasently surprised.
Mr t__:^)
Topless Act on the Bus is Arresting.
Funny ... things like this never seem to happen when I'm around (sigh.)
I just posted a long thing on Bustalk about this stunt.
-Hank
Would this bus change the normal fare or the $3 express bus fare?
on G string Diva's on HBO there was a seen of a stripped stripping on an R 32 and dancing on the poles... it had to be really really late but the few men in the car all had smiles on their face
Would this bus change the normal fare or the $3 express bus fare?
Heck, they could charge twenty bucks and the bus would be jammed :-)
Most definately a way to get people to try Mass Transit. :)
-Hank
Miss Subways is coming back in a whole new way :) :)
--Mark
For those interested, here is a different take on the subject,
NAKED WOMEN ON A BUS
Peace,
ANDEE
There are already plenty of smut on the Internet... I'm amazed at the number of postings there on something that can be so easily accessible. I hear Europe and other countries show smut on broadcast TV. In this country we all get so much fuss about naked women on a bus (and still no smut on broadcast TV).
There are already plenty of smut on the Internet... I'm amazed at the number of postings there on something that can be so easily accessible. I hear Europe and other countries show smut on broadcast TV. In this country we all get so much fuss about naked women on a bus (and still no smut on broadcast TV).
I was quite surprised at a large poster ad I saw on an LIRR train this evening. It was for H&M, a clothing-store change, and featured a blonde model wearing extremely skimpy underwear. She was about three square inches of fabric away from being in her birthday suit.
Which do you think stands a better chance of actually being built: Philadelphia's Schuylkill Valley Metro (http://www.svmetro.com), or Manhattan's 2nd Ave. subway?
Phillyguy
When you say Schuylkill Valley Metro you mean commuter rail to Reading via either the NS Harrisburg line or the old PRR RoW I would say the Schuylkill Valley Metro has a much greater chance of sucess.
The Second Avenue Subway has been in the planning stages since WWII. If they were really going to build it, I think they would have already done it.
They found a way to build a 6th Avenue express and finish the Queens IND, didn't they?
As for the SVM, I personally think SEPTA would be much wiser to spend that money on improving old transit/creating new transit in the city than connecting us to the hinterlands, whose residents would probably much rather drive than take the train anyway.
My 2 cents.
Sibernaut's Lair
than connecting us to the hinterlands, whose residents would probably much rather drive than take the train anyway.
Nobody but Nobody enjoys driving on 422 or I-76. Because I-76 is located between a sheer rock clif and a railroad/river there is no room to expand. The Surekill Distressway is only 4 lanes from the Blue Route all the way to City Line. Its a madhouse every single day and the 422/202/Penna Tpk. interchange is no walk in the park either. If residnets along the valley were given a transit alternative they would use it. Furthermore SEPTA needs to extend the Rt. 100 to King of Prussia mall. Transit within the city is perfectly fine. Its a bus based system, but its a very good bus based system (I only know about the route density, not frequency). Sure they could restore some of the trolley lines, but the SVM would probably be best for the region. The next thing they should do is extend the R3 back to West Chester, the R5 out to Parksburg and the other R5 out to Quakertown (maybe even operate express service to Allentown-Bethelhem. Besides Lehigh university and the Eagles Camp Allentown/Bethelhem offers the Lehign Valley international airport. Flights are cheaper and suffer fewer delays. At transit link to centre city could take some of the pressure off of PHL.
Thank you, someone who finally agrees with me. SEPTA does hae a great bus system in the city, and they do run pretty frequently. The R5 discontinued service to Parkesburg because the trains had to go 20 miles into Lancaster County just to turn around, which wasn't really good. Also, I agree with the fact that SEPTA really needs to extend the rt 100 line to King of Prussia mall for many reasons, and I think they are realy planning to do that now. Also, how far away is Quakertown? I mean, the R5 is already over 60 miles long from end to end. Maybe they should use another line, like maybe the R8 or R7 if possible, since they don't run too often at some times. Plus, the SVmetro is very important for the region because of access to the city from Reading places and stuff.
The R5 discontinued service to Parkesburg because the trains had to go 20 miles into Lancaster County just to turn around, which wasn't really good.
All it would take to solve this problem is to hire 2 full time employees. On the Amtrak Harrisburg Line b/t Lancaster and Thorndale includive there are 3 interlockings, CORK, PARK and THORN. Untill 1994 SEPTA went to Parksburg, the station stop is within PARK's western home signal. After Conrail local freight service in the area dried up I heard that PARK tower closed and SEPTA had to run all the way to CORK, making service impossible. However, after visiting the tower and asking some people I hearned that PARK did not close. The interlocking and the tower are still maintained and PARK is open on an "as-needed" basis. The rest of the time it is on automatic operation. All SEPTA needs to do is pay for 2 full time tower operators to man the tower and set up the reversing moves.
For Quakertown operation they would probably have a change to electric at Lansdale or maybe run diesel express all the way to Wayne Jct.
If anybody doubts the SEPTA bus system, pay $5 for a SEPTA route map and see how its covered w/ red bus lines. I think there are over 100 routes.
I agree the SEPTA bus system is quite extensive, but the problem is that they all run in street RoW, so it's slower than driving. Some bus trips within the city take more than an hour over the same distance as a 20 minute train ride (like the 23 to Chestnut Hill). I think the SVM should be built as commuter rail, but favor Street's proposal for a rail link from Center City up the Parkway to the Museum and Zoo; as well as a new subway line on Roosevelt Boulevard for the $1.5 billion.
Why don't they just make the Roosevelt Boulevard line go to the Museum and Zoo? Also, I wonder what kind of trains they are going to use on that line?
Roosevelt Boulevard and the art museum are not exactly in the same part of town, but it is conceivable to have a Roosevelt Subway that doesn't join the Broad Street line, but crosses it going southwest to reach the attractions in the Fairmount Park region. The downside to this would mean the Roosevelt Subway wouldn't have one-seat ride access to Center City, and I think that's a priority of the planners.
Michalovic
A Rossevelt Blvd-Art Museum Line would also be a long distance. Better to have a line running from Center City to Manayunk via the old Reading City Branch (just north of Callowhill St), then up Pennsylvania Avenue, 33rd St, Ridge Avenue and then the R6 line from East Falls to Manayunk. because Roosevelt Blvd is such a long street, it's better to connect the new Roosevelt line into the Broad Street at Erie or Olney.
Speaking of Erie, I had suggested tying the Route 56 streetcar tracks into the Broad St subway as a possible way of having the BSS reach NE Philly without the big expense of tunneling under the Blvd or cutting down trees to build an elevated structure. It wouldn't be the best solution because Torresdale Avenue (the street 56 runs on in the NE) is some distance from Roosevelt Blvd, which is the main street in NE Philly. But it would be a start.
Or how about maybe some light rail lines that run along Torresdale or Frankford, feeding into the Market-Frankford Line? There are certainly a lot of riders on the bus routes on those corridors.
Michalovic
It is my understanding that SEPTA does not have a Capital Plan process for funding the way that MTA has. That is, specific projects, such as the main line commuter rail reconstruction of the 1990's, or the purchase of Adtranz cars for the Market-Frankford line, were paid for by specific appropriations from the state legislature, and this process was more "crisis-driven" than anything else.
Am I wrong? Is there an established, replicable procedure for capital expenditures for SEPTA?
It appears that Harrisburg looks at Philadelphia as a "bottomless money pit" due to its poverty, corruption and ineffectiveness in city govt and racism (eg perceptions in the state capital regarding the large African-American population of Philadelphia).
Anyone out there with some perspectives on this? I would propose that a comprehensive agreement w/Harrisburg be put in place to establish a capital planning process similar to the process which saved the NYC transit system in the 1980's. Is it politically possible?
Or how about moving the Capitol back to Philadelphia? I've lived in Philly for 6 years and I've never been anywhere else in the state, nevermind Harrisburg.
Also, bus service after dark is infrequent in Northeast Philly, at least on some of the routes, and the lack of north-south rail in that area means that there are fewer bus resources for crosstown routes, which could be improved. I'd like to see more frequent service on the buses that run on Cottman Avenue, for example.
Michalovic
The problem with doing north-south rail is that when you get closer to Center City and South Philly the north-south streets get very narrow, too narrow to support subways as we know them in New York. The streetcar tracks of Route 23 are still there, but if buses are getting stuck behind parked cars, what chance do streetcars have of that never happening? You have to be creative.
Maybe extending the Ridge Avenue subway further northewst along Ridge and onto the R6 line from East Falls to Ivy Ridge might work. That would make the Ridge its own line and not just a branch of the BSS, free up space on the BSS express tracks, and make the Ridge Line more attractive to commuters who must use slower busses along Ridge Avenue and other streets.
Actually, by north-south rail I was talking about rail in Northeast Philly, like the proposed Roosevelt subway. But I really like your idea of extending the Ridge Avenue line northwestward to reach Ivy Ridge, Manayunk, etc. I've tossed the idea around myself some. Another idea I've tossed around is a subway underneath the Ben Franklin Parkway that would head in the same general direction.
Michalovic
I don't even think that SEPTA has any deisal engines, though. Also, i agree that there are a lot of routes, and the suburban map cost over 6 dollars, by the way. However, with bus routes, you can easily change them, rather than with rail lines, where you would have to do a lot of construction.
It has 2, 60 and 61. They are used in shop and work service and sometimes trail in the FP-7 excursions.
60 and 61 are Republic Locomotive lemons; what's 2?
It has two [locomotives]:comma: 60 and 61 :period:
Well, if there are only 3, and they are used for shop and work service, they can't really be used for passenger service, since there are not enough, and, well, they are needed for other things. Also, where do they store these engines? Would you find them at the Overbrook Shop Place or where the trains are parked?
To see SEPTA's diesels, take a ride on the R8 Fox Chase or any other regional line that goes through the main commuter yards near the Wayne Junction Station. There is usually one of them lurking around there easily seen from the train.
Michalovic
Thanks; I misunderstood your fuzzy numbers.
You don't understand. SEPTA wants to extend service to Reading, making track improvements to provide 15 minute headways there. Now that sounds just like a waste of money. I bet for that $1.5 billion they could provide 15 minute headways on Regional Rail lines in the city that nead those headways (Chestnut Hill lines, and maybe one other short one), extend the R6 and the Rt. 100 to King of Prussia, running both on 15 minute headways, and still have a couple hundred million left over.
The SVM is a waste of a study. It should be either: a normal commuter rail line running at normal commuter rail headways, going all the way to Reading, or
A PATCO type rail line, completely independant of freight, running at PATCO headways, terminating somewhere a little past Phoenixville, with huge park&rides, that will attempt to divert people off 422 at about the point where the traffic gets bad.
Email mail@dvarp.org to learn about the stupidity of those who conducted the SVM study.
SEPTA needs to provide straight commuter rail with terminals in Reading and Pottsville. Valley trains would travel on the PRR RoW from Norristown, via the concrete viaduct and into suburban station. If the trains pushed on the inbound trip they could use diesel power the whole way. One diesel engine at the tip of track 8 in Suburban Station worn't bother anybody. If people can live through Chicago ::cough gag:: Station they can tolerate a diesel or 2 at Suburban.
I think the DVARP is way too hard with SEPTA. I mean, they are the ones who keep prodding SEPTA for the SVM, and I think they were teh ones that really push SEPTA into the direction of the 15 minute headways. and such.
I think what is needed is really two separate services. One commuter line that goes out to Reading, and a subway or something that goes to Phoenixville or Norristown or someplace not too far outside the city that would provide good service to the art museum, the zoo, and Manayunk.
Michalovic
they will both be built regardless. both will happen. why? because the gov't wants to improve the environment and cut down traffic congestion and give people ease of getting to work or to entertainment spots. as long as they can supply the money to build them, then there will be no stopping them from being built. of course at first when built no one will ride it but when the word of convenience gets around, i bet you it will be heavily used.
It happened about 20 minutes ago west of Wyandanch. Eyewitness news says the car was trying to cross Straight Path and was hit by the train. The final resting place of the car looks to be a few feet west of the station since the parking lot is visible. The bilevel had no passengers on board.
The front car of that Bi-level has had some damage. Shame to see a new train get hit, and a grade crossing and stupidity claim another life.
Channel 5 said that the person in the car made it out in time. Poor schmuck now has to take the bus. GOOD.
It happened about 20 minutes ago west of Wyandanch. Eyewitness news says the car was trying to cross Straight Path and was hit by the train. The final resting place of the car looks to be a few feet west of the station since the parking lot is visible. The bilevel had no passengers on board. As of now, there is no Ronkonkoma service east of Farmingdale. Limited bus service is being provided.
I saw the car. Looks like there is one less reckless driver in the world.
The news said last night that the car stalled on the tracks and the driver got out in time. How the hell do cars stall directly on the tracks, not before or after.
That's like saying why do tractot trailers jacknife during rush hour and not 2 O'clock in the morning.
Bill "Newkirk"
Could be a great scam if you want to sue the RR for negligence. Deep pockets after all!!!
Now with deference to our resident crime fighter, I will not use any derogatory terms while reporting that since this incident, there were two more "unfortunate" incidents.
Incident #1: Last night on the #3 line at Fulton Street, a gentleman who, through no fault of his own, had too much to drink. He did a 1/2 gainer in front of a #3 train. The mean old train cut the gentleman's leg off.
Incident #2: Today, in New Jersey an AMTRAK train (chartered by the NY Giants) had the bad taste to hit the gentleman who jumped in front of it. If he was trying to stop the Giants from getting to their game with the redskins, he failed. The train was delayed just long enough to remove the body.....
Unfortunately, between now and the end of the year we see a massive increase in the number of similar incidents. It's sad that some people become so desperate.
A coworker of mine recently complained about her lateness "Goddammit, if someone wants to jump in front of a trolley, why they gotta do it at rush hour?"
Back in 1983, while working as an RCI at West 4th St. I responded to nine 12-9 incidents in a three week period (this time of year). More amazing, I worked there just 2 days per week (RDO relief). Only 1/3 involved homeless people on the tracks for various reasons. Each incident causes massive delays for the riding public. Also, while you need to feel sympathy for the departed, the people who are involved, the train crew and the emergency personnel who respond to the scene, also suffer tremendously - hence the anger some of us feel.
While riding a 7 train back to Flushing this afternoon, there were these students filming something, running through the train, and one guy stuck his arm out through the door (it was closed but he somehow managed to stick his arm through) while the train was moving. Just before this act, a girl (while being filmed) held the storm door shut and got one guy stuck in between cars. Looked like some kind of stupid underground romance film or something, but I doubt they had permission.
This type of behavior is dangerous, and should be strictly punished.
Fooling around on the train is dangerous. And I don't appreciate being filmed (they were filming the whole car) without permission. A $1000 penalty should be given to those who film without permission, as well as stupid tourists who have their flash on when taking a picture of a train. This can distract the T/O and cause an accident.
Freedom has it's price.
Freedom has it's price.
A price you are not only unwilling to pay, but wish to spend instead on tyranny.
Another stupid behavior is this "barrel act" thing I mentioned long time ago. It's from these 2 black kids on the train who held onto each other's legs and rolled on the dirty floor from one end to the other to beg for money. Who knows? Maybe if they thought they were on a 75-footer but instead were on a 60-footer and the storm door was stuck open..... eeek. I hope that wouldn't happen in a moving train.
But I would love to see that done on a station mezzanine or in a transfer passage though.
Story in the paper was that the Giants train WAS a suicide. The guy stood in front of the train, smiled, waved, and went splat.
-Hank
Well, it happened again this morning. Silly-season must really be in full swing. This morning it was the main line of the LIRR. Someone either was pushed, fell, jumped or was just plain careless and got in the path of the train just ahead of mine. All this took place at Mineola - a better place to screw up the the rush-hour would be hard to find. It happened at about 7:45 AM and by 12:30 PM, the LIRR was ONLY experiencing 15 - 30 minute delays through the area.
Suicide, unfortunately, goes up at this time of the year. Holiday pressure, the experts say... I don't know myself, but then again those of my faith don't experience the holiday pressure in December that many people do since we only have a minor holiday, not a major one. (Unless you count the pressure that comes from having to deal with the interruption in our lives that someone else's holiday causes... can't even go to a nice restaurant this time of year without being subjected to Christmas music... constant calls and junk mail from solicitors asking me to "help cheer up someone's Christmas"... too many parties at the office, with the consequence that too little work is being done... I'm no Scrooge, but I can't say I disagree with his "humbug" attitude towards the holiday itself [his attitude towards those less fortunate than he, however, is another story]... even the newspaper carrier [who can't seem to manage to get the paper to our house on time] expects a Christmas tip [he's not getting one from me]... AARGH!)
Rant mode = off
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
During the holidays I find the people on the subways, especially tourists to be quite rude and nasty, holding doors and blocking the flow of people. This is a time when everyone thinks of themselves, and how much money they should spend on their spoiled kids,etc. And cell phones (they should be banned in public places) seem to be with everyone (not me).
And when you're alone and not well off (like me) it's a depressing time of year. People are so involved with their own lives they don't see the suffering around them.
And unfortunately, people who feel like they no longer want to go on are pushed off the edge (and often in front of trains) by their depression.
I find NYC quite a depressing and mean place to be during the holidays. The only exception is Chinatown.
Midtown is absolutely horrific. I don't care how many decorations or lights or trees you put up, it's HORRENDOUS!!!!!!
On Saturday, I was on the M5 bus coming from Lincoln Square to Rock. Center, just to get a taste of the midtown holiday stuff. Well, I didn't get a taste - I got an overwealming portion shoved down my throat!
I crap you not, the bus took 15 MINUTES to travel across 59th St. and another 10 minutes to get down to 50th St., when finally I said
Screw It, and decided to get off. Well, the bus was in the middle of the street and I couldn't open the rear doors because their was a car two inches from the bus, so I had to leave through the front (isn't it illegal to pick up and discharge in the middle of the street, BTW?)
Okay, now I'm off the bus, I'll make better time on foot, right?
Yeah! Right!
I don't know what in the name of Rudy Giuliani was going on at St. Patricks, but the sidewalk was packed-solid. I mean NOBODY was moving, and it was like being on a Lexington train during rush hour.
And the bus?
#5144 flew past and was probably on its way back uptown by the time I got to the big tree.
ON top of that it was about 70 degrees . . . negative 70.
So Midtown, and Bloomingdales and the Ice Skating rink, and the Rockettes, and Radio City and TV City or whatever other electronic metropoulos is there, and all the lights and decorations and trees and tourists can stick it where the sun don't shine.
You won't see me in that vicinity until mid-February at the earliest.
The Jersey Malls will be fine for me.
Since when do the New Jersey Giants travel to Washington by train? With few exceptions, pro teams go by chartered jet to road games.
Teams going from New York/New Jersey to Philly by Madden-style bus. In 1992, the California Angels were in a bus crash on the Turnpike en route from visiting the Yankees to visiting the Orioles. Chicago-Milwaukee, LA-San Diego, Oakland-Sacramento, Baltimore-DC, and our local hockey teams are probably the only bus trips in big-league sports.
Perhaps the inclement weather in the southeast and expected delays at the DC-area airports necessitated this.
The Eagles took the train to Washington the previous week, Thanksgiving Sunday, because I-95 gets jammed at peak travel times.
Giants to the train in Washington this weekend, also.
I think you are going to see more of this. Trains are becomming increasingly unreliable and uncomfortable, and football players don't exactly fit in the seats. After three hours of airline air, I can barely function for the rest of the day. Imagine trying to outrun a 250 pound guy who runs a 4.4 40 feeling like that.
In other regions, with less congestion on the roads, I think charter buses have become competitive. The more delays there are in the air, the more land transport becomes competitive at growing distances.
Imagine all the hockey and basketball teams that could travel to play at MSG, via Acela. Bruins,Celtics, Capitals, Wizards, Flyers, 76'ers. There are hotel facities across from the garden. Don't forget that when they go by air, they first wait for luggage at the airport and then have to get on buses to get to the hotel/arena. Train travel to a center city facility has got to beat plane travel on a short hop trip.
THE players themselves do not wait for their luggage, that is what the go-fers are for, they go directly to the bus, the luggage is brought later by truck. Still the train does make more sense.
The Giants are second class compared to the Redskins who now fired their third class coach. I can think of hmmmmmmmmm, wait a second, NO ONE who will miss Turner's presence on the sideline except maybe the Arizona Cardinals who got themselves 2 wins without even playing a game. I sure won't miss their coming to FedEx Field twice a year.
Speaking of the Redskins, some jerk put a Dallas Cowboys helmet sticker on the farebox of WMATA Orion V 9641. I wonder how long it took before some guy at Western figured out who did it and beat him up. UNWRITTEN RULE IN WASHINGTON, DC: YOU MAY NOT ROOT FOR ANY TEAM OTHER THAN THE REDSKINS, BUT IF YOU DO, IT CAN'T BE DALLAS.
The Giants are 2nd class, but who is in 1st place?
Washington, of course! They have the highest payroll. They just had a bad coach.
and a old place kicker who should have stayed retired. Look at the history of the NFL who is more successful not the skins. The Giants. Washington is so crazy about the skins because they have nobody else to root for that comes up to a even 500 season, The Wizards, changing their names, the Caps hah, and even the Skins I am going to have fun when I move to Virginia next month.
Eddie Murray had been with the Redskins awhile back. They got him so they didn't pay a guy who can only kick from more than 30 yards away. They can move the ball downfield. They just can't kick and can't make field goals at the end of the game and not have the other team get a score within the last 30 seconds of the game.
worst team Money can buy
Thay also lost all the good transit they had. There will be a station within walking distance once the blue line to Largo is built.
Forget the playoffs this year, but I believe both the Eagles and Giants play the Browns or a team that isn't much better before the season is over. The Redskins had games versus St. Louis and Tampa Bay and the hardest teams to beat, Arizona and New York Giants.
Thay also lost all the good transit they had. There will be a station within walking distance once the blue line to Largo is built.
Forget the playoffs this year, but I believe both the Eagles and Giants play the Browns or a team that isn't much better before the season is over. The Redskins had games versus St. Louis and Tampa Bay and the hardest teams to beat, Arizona and Dallas.
According to the DN, the Giants have been taking the train to Maryland since an exhibition game in Baltimore last season.
3TM
According to sources, most of the teams in the northeast now go between northeast cities by train. Fewer delays, more comfortable, and in nearly every case, the teams are closer to the hotels and arenas. Teams that travel by train include the Flyers, Giants, Jets, Eagles, Celtics, Bruins, and Capitals.
-Hank
Left out the Knicks and Rangers, but only to Boston and DC.
-Hank
The news said last night that the car stalled on the tracks and the driver got out in time. How the hell do cars stall directly on the tracks, not before or after.
From observations on some of my areas more grade crossing intensive rail lines there are valid reasons cars stall. Railroads run at grade and this makes many grade crossings have a large hump. I know a HUGE hump in Magnolia? on the Beesley's Secondary. Its a 7 foot climb on one side. Some cars can bottom out and get stuck. The other reason is that people stop at the flashers, see the train and deside to go for it. THis practice is common on industrial frieght lines w/ slow speeds and long activation times (so the train may not even be visable). Anyway people w/ standard transmissions come up, stop then try toaccelerate quickly over the tracks (they want to beat the train after all). This results in a stall. BOOM!
I know a HUGE hump in Magnolia?
You might be thinking of the crossing by Dom's, which is in Laurel Springs or Lindenwold. Beasley's Point crews used to radio ahead to Dom's for take-out lunch. Now they stop at Warwick Road and buy lunch at Somerdale Cold Cuts. They disable the crossbuck flashers while they're waiting. They enable the flashers before starting, and with the high horsepower locomotives they use now, the train is up to the 25 mph track speed before the last car crosses Warwick Road.
Its the last crossing before the big crossing at Clementon. I once witnessed a train crew stop (leaving the flashers on) run into a bar and come out w/ a 6 pack.
Yeah, that's Dom's.
The Cummins L10G CNG bus engine has a tendency to stall on upgrade, especially when accelerating from a stop. I sure pray everytime I go across tracks on one of the LI Bus Cummins Orions, that it keeps running.
You are right to be scared. Yesterday a MARTA bus apparently stalled while attempting to cross an at-grade railroad crossing of CSX Transportation's Georgia Subdivision in front of a train. There were 30 ppl. on board, but the train was going slow enough that it only pushed the bus a few hundred feet b4 stoping. Nobody was injured.
Jacknifing has a lot to do with what CAUSES a jacknife, which is the brakes on the cab locking up, and the trailer brakes NOT locking. It happens more during the rush because that's when tractor-trailer drivers hit their brakes more, because of idiots who like to drive Winston Cup style.
Oh, and they don't tie up traffic as much at night, either.
-Hank
My Government teacher had an interesting suggestion on how we should solve the election debacle.
This is a direct quote:
"I think we should make Bush president and appoint Gore Ambassador to Chad."
"I think we should make Bush president and appoint Gore Ambassador to Chad."
Your teacher thinks? Well, that already makes her better than Bush, maybe she should be president!
My friend's government professor sugested that Al Gore be president in the states he won and GW can be president in the states he won.
My friend's government professor sugested that Al Gore be president in the states he won and GW can be president in the states he won.
Does your friend's government professor host the "Late Show" on CBS?
ROFL! That's the best one I've heard!!!!
Do you think the 2nd Avenue Subway will be built before the president is decided? It might happen at this rate...
Did you see the Daily News article yesterday about "Saint Chad, the patron saint of good losers"?
Not a joke. It seems Chad was a 7th century priest in England who was temporarily appointed bishop when the real bishop disappeared. He gracefully stepped aside when the original bishop reappeared, making him the patron of "good losers". The irony is delicious.
With all the news of R-142 deliveries, what's going on with the R-143's? Shouldn't the first car be on its way soon? Or is it even built yet? We haven't heard much about it, except at one point there being a reprt of the first train scheduled to arrive in February.
There was a large post in the nyc.transit newsgroup recently that included many pictures of the car to be delivered in Japan and information about it.
-Harry
Do you have any pictures? I don't want to install Outlook 2000 just to see it.
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I have seen 7271-7275 in road testing on Track M, White Plains Rd and 7281-85 at Unionport Yard. Working towards 7300!!!
I would guess 7276-80 are here? Anyone else see additional 142As?
-Stef
An R142 delivery was being made by two TSS's (supervisors) to 239 Street Yard on Thursday with a diesel acting as the only live car. The TSS's brought the 5 car set to the track and then uncoupled them. Only problem is that the R142 does not have handbrakes, they have "parking brakes" instead and since the R142 cars were inactive, the parking brakes were also inactive as well. So when they uncoupled the R142's, the new cars started to roll down the track and BLAMMO!, right into another diesel. My sources tell me that they were cars 7206,07,08,09,10 (cannot 100% verify the car #'s) and they suffered anti-climber damage and some minor coupler damage.
Isn't that something, not a tenth of a mile in customer service and these 142's are heading for the main shop.
>>>Isn't that something, not a tenth of a mile in customer service<<<
I take this part back.
look at it from the positive side... those are 5 cars which won't be an immediate danger to the riding public...
2755 had a lot less miliage when it was scrapped. These cars will have a more fortunate future. BTW, to those in the TA, why don't the cars have a HANDBRAKE, like the R110s do for a backup? BWAHAHAHAHAHA! I hope the TSSs get away with this one. The rulebook does not mandate that cars with traction motors must be chocked, so this is a good one for the books, keep us informed.
No R68s ever got scrapped. They were only damaged but repaired. Speaking of which, does anybody have information on 2805, 2807 and 2 other R68As that derailed outside of Concourse Yard a while back?
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"2755 had a lot less miliage when it was scrapped."
Of course we know that car #2755 was never scrapped. It was repaired and is running in D service.
The only car numbered 2755 in transit service scrapped was BMT standard #2755. R68 #2755 was not and is still running on the D or N lines (not sure which).
It is part of the Concourse Fleet. It may run on on the B Line from time to time.
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I think it should be pointed out that BMT standard 2755 was scrapped after it had been retired/withdrawn from revenue service, not due to an accident (it would have won, anyway).
As far as I can tell, the 142s have a spring-applied, air-released
parking brake. This change was probably specifically to prevent
the kind of accident that happened, i.e. forgetting to set
sufficient handbrakes after laying up a train and having it get
away after the air brakes bleed off and/or so there are no handbrake
levers for the schoolkids to play with. However, when towing dead
and dry 142s, the parking brakes would have to be manually cut-out,
so OOOPs.
I heard the same thing. I heard it was 7306-7310 though. You may be right on the car #'s.
Train#1930Mike
Don't blame the cars for this incident, but the ignorance of those handling them.
zman179:
It seems like when the bozos designed the cars that forgot about equipping them with handbrakes so they could avoid such an accident that just occurred. Didn't it ever occur to them that you should have handbrakes just in case you need them. I guess that they were not using their atrophied brains at the moment.
BMTJeff
I've often said, "A camel is a race horse that was designed by a committee.
Train Dude:
I also wanted to add that the lack of handbrakes could pose a hazard to passengers in the event that the train loses power while it is moving. Then there is no way to stop the train. How stupid can the people who designed the R-142s be. I guess extremely stupid. The people who designed the R-142s had no brains to begin with or they were whacked out on drugs.
BMTJeff
Handbrakes are not the same thing as the emergency brake pull cords. If the train loses power the motorman should still have air brake control (or it just dumps, I'm not sure).
Dave, you are absolutely correct.
TD - I'll repeat my earlier post which languishes in a parallel
thread. I think you'll know the official answer since you've
probably seen the CED manuals on the 142, which I haven't.
As I understand it, the 142/142A cars have no handbrakes.
Instead they have "parking brakes". These serve the same
function, but instead of being normally released and manually
applied, they are spring-applied and released by air pressure.
When the train is charged up the parking brakes release.
The primary cited advantage of this approach is safety: when
laying up a train you can't forget to apply sufficient handbrakes,
which as you know is a major cause of layup and yard rollaway
accidents (hours after the train is laid up and the brake cylinders
have bled off).
There is a little compartment under a seat near a side door marked
"PBCO" on the 142(A). Again, as I understand it, in the event
that the parking brakes become stuck, they can be released by
winding up the parking brake cutout (PBCO) by hand, thus overcoming
the spring tension and releasing the parking brakes.
Making a drag with dead and dry R142(A) cars you'd have to use
the PBCO on each car. My guess is that those making this move
became confused about this and didn't realize that before cutting
away the engine they'd have to either chock or go back and
un-cut-out a sufficient number of parking brakes.
A lot of the design features on the 142 were added because "gee,
wouldn't it be cool if....." This seems like a good example.
Jeff, I have yet to see any documentation on the R-142s. Seems that the north is a seperate company these days - in more ways than one. But you seem to be agreeing with me. After seeing 130+ "After-overhaul" modifications on the R-46 for just that reason - "gee, wouldn't that be nice if...................", I question design by committee.
We'll see if this operational error leads either to a design
change or a rulebook change!
Typical MTA oversight....
luckily there were no injuires, right??
BMTman
I live near the "Q" and not only was i upset when we lost the R68 and got the R40, now i see that the "Q" is not even listed when it comes to the new 63rd Street plan. Is the "Q" there at all? Will the "M" come back here sending the "D" express from 205th St to brighton Beach during weekdays? Someone HELP!!!
The Q will be going back to Broadway when the Bridge switches sides around the same time. I had wished they would mention that change too.
Better to not complicate things with service changes irrelevant to the 63rd. St. service and those who would use it. The bridge flip is a more important story to south Brooklyn straphangers.
Most people on this message board think having the slant-40s on the Q is a good thing ....
--Mark
It's a great thing. Putting the swiftest cars on the best express run was pure genius.
I was tickled to pieces when the slants went to the Q. The fact that the Q is a weekday-only service allows them to rest up over the weekend.
That move ranks up there with the all-time best initial equipment assignment ever: putting the R-10s on the A.
I loved those R68As on the Q Line. I think when the bridge is flipped, the Q will run to 57 Street and 7 Avenue and terminate.
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what affect will the bridge flip have on "D" and "B" service and is it truely going to happen in 2001? This rout idea in bklyn would be my ultimate choice:
B-Coney Island to Queensboro Plaza
B-W4th St to 145th st or Bedford Park Blvd
D-W 4th St to 205th St Bronx
Q-Brighton Beach to 57th St-7th Av-express wkdys-to coney island wknds
M-Coney Isl to Metropolitan Av weekdays
S-shuttle from Bway Lafeyette to Grand St
if this works instead, bring the R68 back to the Q
Any service south of 34th St on the upper Manhattan portions of the B and D lines is redundant and potentially confusing. Terminating them at 34th St. forces people off the trains so they can make the x-fer to the Broadway line for trains bound for Brooklyn.
You may get your wish after all. I've heard the R-68s are slated to go back to the Q when the bridge flip-flop takes place.
I can sum up my feelings in two words:
Oooooohhhhhhhhhhhhh nooooooooooooooooooo.
Not nooooooooooooooooooooo, but:
slooooooooooooooooooooooooooowwwww
That too.:-)
My thoughts exactly. :-(
What I don't understand is why the NYCTA does not open the 63rd Street connector right now (assuming it will be finished soon) and extend Q trains (or B trains, if they are terminating at 21st-Queensbridge) onto the QB local, and terminate them at 71st-Continental along with the other QB local service, then cut back the G to Court Sq. for all times. Manhattan bound commuters would gain direct service to Manhannatan, and the only people to lose out are users of Queens Plaza station. No V, no new express service until we get the cars, just put the tunnel into use. What am I missing here?
At the same time, the Manhattan Bridge flip-flop will take place preventing 6th Avenue Q trains from using the connector.
I believe that the V train will only be a temporary line until the 6th Ave side of the bridge is fixed and then maybe the Q will run to Queens.
The Q may use the switches west of Lexington Avenue and 63 Street. They were used daily during the 1995 semi-closures.
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So it takes the switches, then what happens? Your only move is a reverse into 57th/7th...
Nooo, look at the track maps on the site. It can take the switches directly next to Lexington Avenue Station and head into Queens.
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Yes, yes, you're right. I thought you were talking about _terminating_ the Q at Lex. -THAT would be a problem.
** "never mind" **
Dave
When the Manhattan bridge construction is done, the Q will go back where it belongs: on Broadway. It wont use 63rd. St and go into Queens. The 63rd. St. line was designed to have 6th Ave. trains run to Queens. So either the V will remain as it's proposed, or the V itself (a more realistic scenerio) will serve 63rd. St thru the connector. Either way, it's here for good.
Uh, no. The 63rd Street line connects to both 6th Avenue and Broadway. The Q could run from Queens to Broadway just as easily as from Queens to 6th.
Friday's morning commute on the Queens Blvd. lines was absolutely nightmarish.
While operating the R, we encountered a broken rail just south of Woodhaven Blvd. on 1 track. All G/R trains were restricted to 5 mph and E/F trains were restricted to 10 mph due to personnel on the roadbed. Needless to say, backups were the norm. In order to weld the bad rail back into place, local service(at 830 am) was suspended for 30 minutes(can you say: station overcrowding?).
So that little incident caused us to run 15 minutes late after we cleared the area.
Later on the same trip, we approach Prince Street and run right into the back of a conga line. Obviously something is wrong again. Guess what it was? ANOTHER broken rail! This one was south of City Hall on the curved portion of 1 track there.
Finally we arrived at our last stop(Whitehall Street) only 28 minutes late. I plan to stay with the TA for another 25 years and in that time I may never have another day when I run into two broken rails. On the same one-way trip nonetheless! Go figure.
Perhaps the cold weather did play a factor, contributing to whatever broke the rail.
Hello,
With the F train now being sent on the 63rd Street Connector at all times, wouldn't a routing punch at Roosevelt Avenue be required (on the w/b express track?) I know that they recently installed a routing punch on the w/b express and local at 36 street (with a lot of buttons, didn't stop to look what they say). I don't think it would be good to have the F train stop at 36th street to punch its way to 63rd Street connector. A punch at Roosevelt would be better.
Also, I read nothing about the Q train change in the Daily News article, and maybe just two postings here about it. Is this true - will the Q train be sent up broadway and terminate at 57th Street N/R station? Or will it use a different route?
Take care,
- Jose
I thought that the G would terminate at Queens Plaza, and get turned around ( ends switched ) in that middle track just outside the station and just past the double crossover on the 179th St. bound tracks. Passengers would not have to hike through Court Square Station to make connections, as everything would be just across the platform.
That would tie up the entire Queens line for every reverse
There is an enormous punch box on the SOUTHBOUND EXPRESS TRACK, AT THE 36TH STREET STATION, JUST FEET BEFORE THE SWITCH TO 63RD STREET TUNNEL.
I thought that the City would continue to run G service to 71st, while expanding the R to 179th, with the V going to 71st as well.
If the stories that have been circulated are true, and the F is the only train going from Queens Blvd to 63rd tunnel, then all local stations between Roosevelt and 36th Street will not be able to take advantage of this new tunnel.
Yeah, i just realized that too. Why not have the V local run via 63rd. st. That way people between 36th and roosevelt could use the tunnel if the so desired. Sending the F that way will not ease congestion. And, what will happen to the Q? It can't terminate at 21st if the F is going through it.
I doubt they would have both a Q and V, either one or the other
There is a punch at Roosevelt D3 track.
Talk of the Schukyll Valley Metro made me remember that I had planned out a whole dream transit system. It only involved commuter and regional rail, but its still good. Please feel free to share your transit dreams:
My plan starts out w/ a billionaire putting me in charge of a private commuter rail system. The Conrail Vineland Sec. is bought and I install a 600 VDC 3rd rail system for EMU's. It first runs to Glassboro and then to Millville. We also run frieght on the line and the old Geeps are retrofitted w/ 3rd rail shoes and DC dual mode. The line is double tracked all the way to Vineland and single to Millville with a 3 track stetch from BROWN to WOODBURY. Along w/ 3/4 covers the 3rd rails are dipped in plactic to insulate all but the top. Hi-level stations are built at Millville, Vineland, Newfield, Malaga, Franklinville, Clayton, Glassboro, Pitman, Sewell, Woodbuty Heights (local), Woodbury, Westville and Glouchester City. All signals are PRR position light and the line is cab signaled. Trains can reach speeds of 90-100 mph. 3 interlocking towers are built at BROWN, WOODBURY and GLSSBORO to each control a segment of the line. The Camden terminal is built over the Rand Transportation center and has 6 tracks. Later, after some PATCO adjustment an underground station adjacent to PATCO will be built.
This project is so sucessful that the state throws money at me and we build a 2 track tunnel from just before Westville, under the Delaware and into Greenwich yard in South Philly. There's a stop at the Sports Complex and then the trains run on 3rd rail into a new platform at 30th St. where the car park is. After this a branch is built on the Beesley's Poin through southern Camden Co. all the way to Winslow Jct. This route is also 3rd rail electrified.
Pennsylvania is so impressed that I have made a profitable transit system they loan and grant my company money to build a Reading Philly line. We use the PRR line from Cynwyd to Norriston and its a hi-speed w/ non-stop 100 mph running. At N-town there;s a station stop before the electrified line crosses the river and then onto the NS Harrisburg line. The line has been 4 tracked in all the places that it had been and 100% electrified. We also twin the Black Rock tunnel. Stations are at Valley Forge, Phoenixville, Pottstown, Roysford, Birdsboro and Reading (front and outer stations). Later on I go on the buy the Harrisburg Line, Reading Line and Lehign line from NS. I electrify them all and as well as offering passenger service I haul freight electrically at speeds approaching 90mph. I also make money from a factory that makes ties out of recycled plastic.
In the latter days of Reading commuter service between Pottsville/Reading and Reading Terminal, one inbound train stopped at Valley Forge in the AM and one outbound in the PM. I was told that this was to accommodate the caretaker of Washington's headquarters building.
An R and an E left 71/Continental at the exact same time, and both were R-46. The R was late and had been ordered to go express on the local. We were neck and neck for a while, but then we hit the timers at 63Dr. The R sailed by, and just when we were about to catch up... bam! The Grand Ave timers. When we opened the doors at Roosevelt, the R had already left. This is utterly disgraceful, especially since it appeared the R was actually following the "15 MPH leaving station" rule (or at least it slowed down a bit at stations).
This holds true for the 4th Avenue Line heading southbound into 36 Street. A stopped R46 R Train sees a R32 N Train coming by. It leaves 25 Street and get's to 36 Street before the N train does. This has helped me catch an express train from the R quite a few times.
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It sounds like last Spring, when I rode the N Slow Beach. The N and R left 36th St same time, and arrived at 62nd St the same time,
Don't you mean N & B?
Don't you mean the 'B' and 'N' left 36th Street and got to 62nd Street at the same time? If you're on a Coney-bound 'N' approaching New Utrecht, it's easy to see a Coney-bound 'B' upstairs arriving at 62nd.
The 'R' doesn't go anywhere near 62nd Street.Unless, of course, you mean the switch where the 'N' peels off 4th Avenue to come outside; that's roughly between 65th and 66th Streets.
Downtown A and D trains creep past 72nd street, while a train on the local track gets ahead.
Once I was on an A train, passed by a B at 81st, but we pulled in at the same time at 59th!
On that downtown express run on Central Park West, an A or D train should actually be going at a faster rate of speed at 72 St than at 81 St.
You have to break down the speed just south of 81 St to around 27 mph to allow the homeball timer to clear with sufficient space in the event that it stays red. After it clears, you go at top speed to south of 72 St. Then you gradually slow it down to about 15 mph for 3 sets of homeballs on time. One of these homeballs doesn't have the white "S" lit up to let you know that it's on time even though it is. Most T/O's take it easy just in case it isn't cause if you hit it, demotion is likely. 15 mph is safe but you can do as much as 20 if you're willing to roll the dice.
Coming into Queens Plaza this evening on the F, I saw another F coming in on the local track (rerouted to the G because of the smoke condition at W4, I presume?), signed "QUEENS EXPRESS." It stayed on the local track, apparently making local stops, and still managed to leave Roosevelt Avenue as my express F got there! I also noticed in that reflected in the windows of the passing local F was the destination sign of my F, which still read "6 AV/CULVER LCL - TO CONEY ISLAND." Weird day under Queens Blvd.
Expresses can get slowed down due to congestion, timers, and dwell time. Sometimes it doesn't pay. Even though "express" makes people think it's faster, sometime you're better off taking a local and being more comfortable, since the express may only save you a minute or less.
I sure hope they speed up Queens Blvd expresses, but maybe more people will take the V train.
It's psychological. I don't like the idea of stopping at every station; that's why I avoid locals at all costs.
This business of locals zooming along while expresses lope is nothing new. It's been going on for years. Not too many A trains of R-10s were victimized by this, however.
Speaking of psychological reasons for taking the express... what was the real advantage to taking the Train to the Plane over the A? I realize that it was a "Super Express" that made no stops after Jay Street (?), but wouldn't it get stuck behind As (and CCs beyond Euclid) making regular stops? If so, then the only justification for its existence seems to be for people who don't want to share a train with the "undesirables" who would be served by the stops along Pitkin & Liberty Aves, since although it would have to make "simulated stops," the doors would never open?
I've heard that JFK Expresses were sometimes sent along the express track on the Liberty Ave. elevated segment if there was congestion ahead. I took it once in 1984, and it didn't stop at all past Jay St. until we got to Howard Beach and to make that little reverse move they used to do.
Yes, and the crew would ask passengers to remain seated until the train came to a complete stop! What a joke! the rest of the system jammed to the gills, and some wanabee flight attendant asking passengers to remain seated.
As for making the switch back just so travelers didn't have to climb stairs or the crew didn't have to open and close the doors twice. I could never figure that one out. The train to the plane was an express bus with hard seats. More daily commuters used it than air travelers back then. I did. It was a sure seat. Its route matched mine. For a real train to the plane you need :
1) Direct access to the air terminals.
2) City Terminals at Grand Central, Penn Station and Port Auth. and LIRR Atlantic Ave Terminal or City Hall Chambers Street Terminal.
3) Future direct connection to LGA and Newark.
4) Future future , access over the Hellsgate for Conn, residents to all three Major airports.
5) The mind set of planners should be PROactive not reactive when it comes to providing a real connecting service for air travelers.
But in the past the A operated express in Brooklyn only during rush hours when the CC operated local then. And if I'm not mistaken, the JFK Express only ran every 20-25 minutes. So during most hours, it had the Fulton St express tracks to itself. It's too bad the Train to the Plane never actually went to the plane (by that I mean the actual JFK Airport terminals!) or it might actually have been a smashing success.
Steve, R142, & Ron - thanks!
If it did actually go into the airport, I'm sure it would have been far more successful. The extra fare isn't totally justifiable when you're still required to haul your luggage onto and off of a bus, when you can just throw it into the back of a taxi and avoid contact with other human beings...
The TtoTP ran every 20 minutes. During most of it's run, it ran on express trackage used only during rush hours. While it would get slowed down near Hoyt-Schermerhorn during rush hours, the Fulton St line hardly ran at 100% capacity and these delays were minimal.
It's only problem was befor 4/1986 when it shared the 57th St. terminal with the B. Sometimes, it got stuck at Rockefeller Ctr. waiting for an open track.
Usually, everybody would be seated in the last of a 3-car train. I would have loved to peer through the opening in the cab door window as it switched from the 6th Ave. local track to the 8th Ave. local track south of W. 4th St. I did see the switch this past October, though.
DUDE, sometimes, a local train MAKING stops can keep up with an express. This is especially true during AM's on the southbound track.
Sometimes locals making stops can OUTRUN the expresses (not on this line though)
Sometimes it makes for an interesting turtle race.:-)
The timers on the Manhattan bound express track between 71st/Cont. and Roosevelt are overdone, and ruin any speed that could be accomplished. Locals do catch up to us at Roosevelt. The TA is just too timer happy.
I can name several other areas of excess timers, mainly on express tracks. The express track Queens bound just before veering off Northern Blvd. The 53rd street tube, as well the timers between 5 av and Lex on the 53rd street line.
Also the timers on the Broadway line before Canal street (northbound) seem to be pointless.
>>>as well the timers between 5 av and Lex on the 53rd street line<<<
Sorry John, but there are no timers in this area.
Otherwise what you said about timers ruining speed is true. But in most of the areas that you mentioned, the train is going on a downgrade or on a curve and the TA I suppose does not want express trains going 55 mph downhill(not that I would mind) nor does it want excessive speeds on certain curves.
Also the Canal St(N/R) timers serve two purposes. One, without it trains would be taking that small S curve north of City Hall at top speed when it's to be taken at 10 mph. Two, trains would be overshooting the Canal St station at an alarming rate.
Out of curiosity, is the Queens-Bound 59th Street Tunnel the only place in the entire system with a "GT 50" sign?
The only other area that I know of that has a "GT 50" is the 14 St tube(L line) between 1 Av and Bedford Av in both directions.
Well my trip today in the 60th street tube wasn't anywhere near 50, since there were lots of track workers in their, it was slow the whole way. Wondering what they were doing down there?
Well my trip today in the 60th street tube wasn't anywhere near 50, since there were lots of track workers in there, it was slow the whole way. Wondering what they were doing down there?
The 53rd street (timers) aren't GT's but probably slow trains down when there is congestion (train traffic ahead).
The Queens Blvd Express can be downright frustrating. I mean, twice in a row the E and F skip FIVE STATIONS AT A TIME, but at least a third of the time they fail to pick up much of a lead against the G and R locals. Sometimes the locals beat the express, and I wonder what I'm sitting or standing in a huge crowd for! And at lest once my F train was stopped for so long (far from any express stop) that SIX locals passed us!
I know there's high volume, and resulting congestion. But there's gotta be something they could be doing better here. Are the other expresses this slow?
Andrew
[Sometimes the locals beat the express, and I wonder what I'm sitting or standing in a huge crowd for! ]
Stop wondering and use your experience.
Arti
Well, yeah. But it's not as if you can reliably predict when the local is going to be faster. But maybe I will take the local sometimes anyway.
:-)Andrew
In the morning rush, if I must go to Manhattan via subway, I will take the R all the way (I'm at the third stop, guaranteed window seat). Otherwise if I have to go to Manhattan in the morning I take the QM10 or 12 for midtown, the QM11 for downtown.
I've seen many a similar complaint here about the 4/5/6.
At least you have a solution: ride the local. On the 1/2/3/9, the problem is reversed: there isn't enough local service during rush hours. Express after express goes by as the platforms fill up. When a local finally arrives, it's fallen so far behind schedule that invariably it's running express too -- so the crowds don't get any smaller, since anyone who could have used an express would have taken one of the many that just went by. Somehow this problem is being simply ignored, and (IINM) the plan when the R142's come in is to simply replace the Redbirds rather than keeping at least a few around to improve service.
Today for instance I took an R from 34th street to Roosevelt avenue. Once in Queens on the local, we zoomed between stations. There aren't any timers on the local, as the train can get to full speed, and in between stations, often when I'm on an E or F the R will be going faster than us. Only when it makes stops does it lose time, but express on the local is faster than on the express, as long as there isn't congestion.
In rush hour it would probably be faster and more comfortable if you took the R.
You see, riding the Queens Blvd. lines during the AM rush hour is a crapshoot no matter if you select the express or the local.
You can never predict whether the "sick passenger" will be on the local or the express, if there is going to be a broken rail(rare), train with brakes in emergency, signal problems, or just general overcrowding.
Last week while working the R, I can say with 100% certainty that the local was NOT the way to go last week.
My best advice to you is: ride any train that you can get a seat on and hope the commute goes halfway decent.
Or maybe one day a week, find an alternative way to go to/from the city whether it be an express bus, the J line (if you work in lower Manhattan), or the LIRR from Kew Gardens/Forest Hills/Jamaica. These options may not be feasible for you but if they are, then maybe you should consider them. It may (or may not) be better than what you currently put up with.
Alternate subject heading: The great R-46 door conspiracy of December, 2000.
My F train was first held in the tunnel at 8:15 because of an unconscious passenger at Roosevelt Ave. This cost us 14 minutes. At 23-Ely Ave, it took 16 tries to get the doors in the front half of the train closed. We still didn't move, indicating there must have been a problem in the back. After 5 or so minutes of that, the train was taken out of service due to door problems. Not wanting to be part of the platform full of people waiting for the next train, I went back to Queens Plaza to get an R. I usually take the 6, but I didn't want to deal with whatever mess would be waiting at 51 St, so I was going to stay on the R. Still at Lexington, our doors close; apparently, there were problems in the front of the train. The conductor comes over the PA, "We're having door problems, we're investigating, we'll be moving shortly." The doors in the back open, I bail out for the 6. Before I reach the stairs - you guessed it - out of service! It's now 9:20. No problems on the 6, fortunately, and I was only 40 minutes late for work. Express bus for me tomorrow?
I made every single wrong choice this morning!
I got on the F at Van Wyck Blvd. It was held there. There was an announcement that there was a sick passenger at Roosevelt Ave and that all trains would be running local. Then when we got to 71st Ave we were still on the express track.
I wish I had gotten right on the R at that point. Would have saved me a full hour!
The F was slow, often stopped, but it pulled into Roosevelt just shy of the R that had left 71st the same time as us. Everything seemed to be allright. So I stayed on. BIG MISTAKE!!!!
We got as far as 65th (express tracks) when we heard the announcement about door failure at 23-Ely. And as we sat there forever, the conductor just kept giving that appologetic announcement.
At Queens Plaza I decided to wise up and thake the R. I CAN'T FRIGGIN' WIN!!!! The R pulls in (after the F and and E leave) with the announcement that it will be held there because of a train that was stopped at Lex. So I got on the next E and took it took Lexington.
I should have stayed there and then. I transfered to the 6, using the WORST transfer I know of in the whole system. I ran up the stairs huffing and puffing rarther than wait in line for the escalator, then squeezed onto a 6 train.
I stayed on the 6 which was slow but moving to Union Square. But just to add insult to injury, just this once the 4/5's kept passing us.
I was an hour late today.
AAAAAAAAAAAAAARGH!
(Can you believe the 7, an ancient IRT with scratchy old redbirds, actually beats the Queens Blvd. line? I would use it if it weren't so hard to park in Flushing. Anyway, it might be the express bus for me tomorrow!)
Sounds like you were a train or two behind me! You probably would have still been stuck on or behind the dead R, even if you switched at Roosevelt.
Would you belive that a coworker picked today as his first time riding the F as opposed to the express bus? :)
Yup, I've been taking the 7 most of the time now, Queens Blvd is a big mess. And nothing beats riding the 7 when it's cool and crisp, and looking out that front window seeing the beautiful views.
I don't know why anyone would say that the Q-60 is faster than anything underground. Where is it faster? At all those red lights? Is it faster when it stops AT EVERY SINGLE STOP? Or how about when it takes 10+mins to pass the vicinity of the Queens Center Mall? The only time I use the Q-60, is at night, when I know it leaves 2nd Ave. at 12:05, and will arrive at 67th Ave. at 12:40.
And don't get me started on conductors who announce that there is a "door problem". The problem is not mechanical. The problem is that the people would not let the conductor close the doors, so he just gets mad and takes the train out of service.
I was being semi-facetious about the Q60; semi because a bus averaging 3 mph is faster than a stalled train.
I don't know the specifics of how the door system works (Jeff H?), but I believe a passenger holding a door open forcefully enough can knock it out of alignment, so it is not recognized as "closed" and the train cannot proceed with passengers.
I am sure that passengers can cause door problems. But I know too many people who work as conductors that have just said, "#*&! it!", and taken the train out of service.
Good for them! :)
OK, maybe not so good for the thousands of us who are delayed...
I remember a post a while ago about conductors using the "Veg-O-Matic" method of closing the doors. That, I like!
This thought crossed my mind this morning, after the 11th attempt at closing the doors at 23-Ely: what if there was a strict policy that stated after the 15th failed attempt to close the doors, the train was automatically OOS? Would it discourage people from diving through closing doors to squeeze onto a packed train, or do enough people have the mentality that, "if I'm not going to get there before these people, then none of us are getting there at all?"
A still insist the best deterent is strict punishment.
(whack!)
They damage trains, which is vandalism.
----------
NOTICE TO ALL RIDERS
Door holders will be procecuted! Hold a door and recieve a $1000 fine.
Do it again and you'll be in for a flogging!
Mass Transit Authority of Singapore
-----------
Now that's the way to get it done!
Why would the Mass Transit Authority of Singapore flog passengers in New York?
Besides, one minor difficulty is that the United States Constitution doesn't permit flogging in response to holding doors. I'm sure you'd have no trouble convincing states to repeal the Constitution.
Thats okay, but where will the flogging take place , and when?
I would suggest a the fare control of a very busy station during the AM rush. If that slows things down , perhaps the Iceskating ring at Rockefeller Plaza. Maybe half time at the Super Bowl. I also suggest the perp be dressed only in a loin cloth and be bound with heavy hemp cords. Great visual effects! Sale of commercial tv time to buy bullet proof vest for conductors.
avid
Door holding is a real, growing problem. And lately I've seen people pry their hands into the doors and force them open. A swift, strict punishment should be established for door holders. Hold a door and recieve a $1000 fine. If you fail to pay you be flogged.
Watch the door holding cease immediately.
I'm told that there already is a $200 fine for door holding, and signs pointing this out do exist, though I've never seen one or seen it enforced.
The R46's do seem to have problems with the doors alot. They can't seem to get them closed. I remember many a time on an F, when it took 10 or more tries to get the doors closed, usually at 5th/53rd.
People hold doors too, sometimes forcing them open. This does damage the trains. The funny thing is the "good ol'" Redbirds seem to be much easier to close the doors. Lately my rides on the Queens Blvd IND have been alot more unpleasant than the 7.
Perhaps the TA shouldn't be in such a rush to junk them, they can still be reliable trains.
I know the 'birds don't have door mechanisms that automatically re-open, but perhaps getting a scare is what these door holders deserve. It's either that or flogging if I'm the guy in charge!
And I'm prefering the <7> again because the signals seem to handle the high train capacity better.
The F stands for fail!!
"Perhaps the TA shouldn't be in such a rush to junk them, they can still be reliable trains."
I know that, you know that, many of us here know that. Others say they're old and obsolete, and the general perception of the riding public is old=dirty and useless, new=clean and efficient. So we'll have to suffer through those automated announcements and keep getting held up by door systems that care more about passenger safety than keeping trains moving.
I think public flogging is a bit extreme, but I did post on the Straphangers board that razor blades should be installed on door edges. It wasn't too popular over there, but it did get quoted in the New York Times!
I know the 'birds don't have door mechanisms that automatically re-open, but perhaps getting a scare is what these door holders deserve. It's either that or flogging if I'm the guy in charge!
Or a dragging.
Once upon a time you could be on an Express, seated, and you would pass a Local. If, as you went by the veiw was a blur, you felt Very important. If the veiw wasn't to blurrie, you were important. If you just crept by, you were slightly more important then the riders on the local. Now when your on the express, crowed and standing and the local passes you because your train is only going halffast.
ITS YOU WHO ARE HALFASSED! You've been lured by advertizing, you actually beleived the Express is going to be an express. The peasants on the local have the seats, the room, and the speeeeeeeeeed. Do your feet hurt Sparky?
avid
I know exactly how you feel! It's the same exact way on the Lexington Avenue Line almost every evening! The 4 and 5 express always travel at a snail's pace while the 6 passes by with half as many people as the overcrowded express. Someone should complain!
Plenty of people do
www.straphangers.org...
:)
Then take the 6!
Ahh yes. Those half empty southbound local trains just fly right by. Like when I get on the G or R at 67th Ave. and by the time we are pulling in to Roosevelt, and everyone is crammed in because it has been 12 mins. since the last local, the conductor struggles to close the local doors AT EACH STOP, and six or seven express trains have passed us by, I curse myself for not just walking to 71st Continental.
I remember my first express ride in Queens, on a prewar E train in May of 1968. It wasn't a favorable first impression, as we boarded this train at Union Turnpike on the local track (normal operation back then) and I had already developed a dislike for the E because it ran local in Manhattan even though the R-1/9 side route curtains said 8th Ave. EXPRESS. Then, when we stopped at 75th Ave., I started doing a slow burn, thinking we would be running local all the way into Manhattan. Then we switched to the express track and man, did that train start to move. After we left Continental Ave., we were cruising. Same thing after Roosevelt Ave. I still vivdly remember coasting through the stretch along Northern Blvd., then hearing the bull and pinion gears singing out a resounding F# above middle C when the motorman reapplied power at 36th St., which was a blur.
That was one of the very few R-1/9 express runs I ever had. It was most enjoyable; however, it didn't change the way I felt about E trains in general.
massive congestion on the EF for some reason slows it up. it's baffling! every am rush it is like this till roosevelt ave. i assume that one of the problems for such a sluggish express is the congestion of roosevelt ave. station and too many trains on the line. the trains are always one behind the other. they are more frequent than the R and G trains. thats why R's and G's move by so fast. and The Q60 being faster than anything under ground? 99.99% of that is hell no! am and pm that bus is like riding a rock and waiting for the next ice age to move it.
The plans for the V train show that those who make up scheduling need more experience out in the field. Under the proposal outlined in the Friday 12/1/00 NY Daily News, there will be major problems. For one thing, Manhattan bound at Roosevelt: a large percentage of people who get on there and who are already on the current E & F trains are destined for Lex/53. Once the V starts running, if this proposal is adopted, very few will want the F because it will have no connection with the Lex IRT and and very few will want the V because it will go local. The E will get pounded. What about when an E & V meet at Queens Plaza? Both services will have 23/Ely as their next stop. One train will be delayed by the other and the passengers will be running back & forth between the two demanding to be on the train that leaves first. From Manhattan: at Lex/53 the E will again be pounded since not many people will want the V local. At Queens Plaza, when a V & R meet, one of them will be delayed as they both need the same track once they leave with passengers running back & forth demanding to ride the first train to go. You will also have the V trains crossing Queens Plaza interlocking in both directions (diamond crossovers): a slow speed move with the switch itself being pounded all day. I can go on and on. I made a proposal several months ago which I think would work: have the F be local thru Queens via 63rd St. 24/7 terminating at Continental (send it to 179 on the midnite if the V isn't running) and have the V join the E as the other Queens Blvd Exp. The railroad will be kept moving under my proposal since you will not have trains cutting out each other on the crossover at Queens Plaza and passengers running from train to train to be one the first train to leave.
(I made a proposal several months ago which I think would
work: have the F be local thru Queens via 63rd St. 24/7 terminating at Continental (send it to 179 on the midnite if the V isn't running) and have the V join the E as the other Queens Blvd Exp. The railroad will be kept moving under my proposal since you will not have trains cutting out each other on the crossover at Queens Plaza and passengers running from train to train to be one the first train to leave. )
Sounds good to me. Instead of 18 F trains from Queens and 14 from Brooklyn AM, the could have 14 in both directions. Meanwhile, the V Express to 2nd Ave could have 18 trains. As we discussed, east side local riders could wait for the R and switch at 59th Street.
But I like my idea of sending the V to WTC along with the E better, assuming they can turn fast enough at the terminal. More cross-town service for those at Penn and the PABT, no merge and switch at 53rd and 6th. E/V riders to 6th Avenue in Midtown could switch to the B/D at 7th Avenue.
why not turn them at essex street
Impossible. The tracks from 6th Ave. only merge with the Nassau St line's eastbound track. It can't turn around using the middle track.
There is going to be total madness at Roosevelt Avenue on the AM rush. You are going to have soooooo many people getting off the F trains at Roosevelt to wait for an E or V so that they may go to Lex/53 or 5/53. People from 179 St to 75 Av will now have to use two trains to get to their destination and they're all going to get off at Roosevelt.
Why not get the E train at Union Tpke or Continental you say? Face it, people who have a seat on the F are not going to get up until the last possible minute(I know I would), and considering how slow and meandering the Queens Blvd trains can be, would you really want to stand up all the way into Manhattan? Sure you could get the local V at CTL and get a seat, but do you really want to increase your commuting time? And do you want to take a local everyday?
My wife would be affected by this plan. When it takes effect, she'll be taking the express bus to/from work everyday and ditch the subway altogether.
[There is going to be total madness at Roosevelt Avenue on the AM rush. You are going to have soooooo many people getting off the F trains at Roosevelt to wait for an E or V so that they may go to Lex/53 or 5/53]
It would be difficult to assess as we really don't know where those people are heading. Stops at 63rd St line may be as close to their destination.
[Why not get the E train at Union Tpke or Continental you say? Face it, people who have a seat on the F are not going to get up until the last possible minute(I know I would), ]
Appearently they would. Times interviewed a commuter who did exactly that, also based on her experience she had problem getting on at Union Tpke.
[Sure you could get the local V at CTL and get a seat, but do you really want to increase your commuting time? And do you want to take a local everyday?
My wife would be affected by this plan. When it takes effect, she'll be taking the express bus to/from work everyday and ditch the subway altogether. ]
The local is not that much slower perhaps 5 minutes or so. Express bus probably is slower and definitely less predictable than local train.
Arti
People will adjust and x-fer at Union Tpke or Forest Hills. And don't forget the large percentage of those destined to the 53rd/Lexington Ave. station who use local stops along Queens Blvd, who now can get there directly.
I assume you were trying to respond to zman179.
Arti
The only good thing about this is that it will FORCE local riders west of Roosevelt to use the V to access Sixth Ave. from Queens, as the F will branch off with no transfer possible at Queens Plaza.
People need to be convinced that locals are better than expresses at certain times. People will have to adjust to riding a local, or endure massive congestion on the E.
An apology to the TA schedule makers as I gave them a bad rap. They do not make decisions on service plans, they make up schedules as needed based on recomendations by the service planners.....I can understand their logic based on the G terminating at Court Sq. Passengers can simply change to the V at 23/Ely and get a direct ride to their local station on Queens Blvd. Under my plan, people from Brooklyn would have to change at Court Sq./23 Ely for the E or V, then again at Queens Plaza for the R. Any service plan will be painful. The 63rd St. line was supposed to connect with a new line thru Queens which was never built. The TA has to deal with this, they have to play with the cards dealt to them.
Or, keep the E and F as they are and let the "V" be the new 63rd St. train, running local all the way from 2nd Ave. to 71st St. Doesn't it make sense to use the new letter for the new service?
There is still the question of where to terminate the "Q". If the Q is staying on 6th Ave., then forget the "V" all together and stick with the original plan of running the "Q" through 63rd St., local in Queens to 71st. Yes, it means that in Queens the "F" is express and the "Q" is local, while in Manhattan the "Q" is express and the "F" is local. So what? Maybe that will balance the load a little in Queens.
But if the Manhattan Bridge "flip" is going into effect at the same time, then they need to address the whole situation and not come out with plans that only cover a portion of the change being made.
And who's responsible for the press release saying that the E and R trains could be changed for at Court Square, instead of (under the plan being proposed) the E and V? I saw this same mistake in two different papers.
But would the TA want to run the V 24/7? I doubt it. No need for 3 services thru Queens on the midnite. If you send the F via 63rd St. on the midnite only, people would be quite confused.
The Q Exp could terminate at 57/7. Q Local could run thru 63 St to Forest Hills, with no 6th Ave Service via 63rd St. They would close 57/6 and people would walk 1 block to 7th. They did that for years
"Or, keep the E and F as they are and let the "V" be the new 63rd St. train, running local all the way from 2nd Ave. to 71st St. Doesn't it make sense to use the new letter for the new service?
"There is still the question of where to terminate the "Q". If the Q is staying on 6th Ave., then forget the "V" all together and stick with the original plan of running the "Q" through 63rd St., local in Queens to 71st. Yes, it means that in Queens the "F" is express and the "Q" is local, while in Manhattan the "Q" is express and the "F" is local. So what? Maybe that will balance the load a little in Queens."
I am glad someone else saw this beside me. For over sixty years, people counted on the E and F trains going through to 53rd street. Why change it now?
If the TA were to use the V and the Q runs along Broadway, make the V a pure local from 2nd Avenue to 179 Street via 63rd Street. Additionally, make the F a Super Express from an extended G terminal at Church Avenue, along 34 Street, and through to 179 Street. If the F isn't one of the most interminable rides as it is, then what line is? Why add what could be another ten minutes negotiating that God-forsaken, little-used 63rd Street Tube when people on the F Train are on it because they have someplace they need to be, and in a hurry? Give the local the less-preferential route and clip what could be 15 minutes or more off the F Train's terminal-to-terminal travel time.
If they run the Q over Sixth Avenue, make IT the 2nd Avenue-63rd street local to 179 Street, and again give the F full right of way over all shared trackage. Don't terminate the Q at 34th Street. Make it the Sixth Avenue Local to 2nd Avenue along with all Bronx-bound B and D Trains. Or, have either the B or the D terminate at that useless Grand Street station, if it must remain open. I'd just as soon have it closed until after the renovation. It isn't a transfer point like the Canal Street bridge approach station and isn't too far away from other subway lines that can pick up the traffic.
Does this hold water, like the 63rd Street tube itself?
Why do you say the Grand Street is Useless. Every time I have used it there were many people there going to Chinatown or the Lower East Side. Grand Street probably has more money going through it then most of the Local Stops on the Queens Lines(Tokens-Metrocard fares etc.)
I use Grand street often to get to Chinatown. It is much closer to the heart of bustling new Chinatown than Canal. Canal street is a 10 or 15 minute walk away from Bowery, and Canal is packed with crowds going to the cheapie stores. I hate walking on Canal. And the station is more deep down, and a harder climb out.
When the A/B tracks close, reducing service to a shuttle is so stupid. How hard could it be to turn the V at Grand? Can't they install a switch to turn trains? There's alot more people at Grand than 2nd avenue, doesn't the TA realize that?
Then again, the TA could care less about the Chinese people in Chinatown, rather, the rich jewish people in Queens are more important and get the better service, and the V serves them, not Grand street in Chinatown. Pure politics as usual. When will we ever learn!
Nobody seems to be talking about how this major change will affect riders in Chinatown and Brooklyn. Don't you think (the media) should. It's gonna be chaos when the bridge switch happens.
The area around 21st St-Queensbridge is mostly populated with black people (rich or poor, can't make conclusions but there are housing projects...). I went there a few times to transfer to a Q66 to Flushing. I'm not sure where in Queens have high concentrations of jewish people though I have seen one concentration around Main St at Kew Gardens Hills and Pomonok (saw Hebrew store signs from passing Q44/Q20).
It was chaos when the 63rd connector was and is being connected to the Queens Blvd IND. I just hope a switch will be installed closer to Grand St once this shuttle starts service.
The bridge flip and new W train was covered on the news tonight (sparingly though). It will be a mess for Brooklyn riders, they will have to use the Broadway line instead, and there will be no more 6th ave express (B,D,and Q).
I don't think Broadway (stations) are designed for the higher capacity of people. And for those poor people in Chinatown, who use the busy Grand street station will have to take the W or Q to Canal&Broadway, and climb out onto the already overcrowded streets, and 15 minutes out of their way. There is nothing at 2nd avenue, the TA has no brains for not terminating the V at Grand.
And I wonder how it will effect this portion of Chinatown. With less people in the area fruit markets and stores may close. Doesn't the TA realize it will be a great inconveniece not to have direct service to Grand street (only a shuttle), and people will lose money. People's livelihood is at stake.
The V should go to Grand street. Anywhere else is not only foolish, but downright mean.
[The V should go to Grand street. Anywhere else is not only foolish, but downright mean. ]
V can't go to Grand Street because of track configuration. Also, enough about "the poor people in Chinatown" Do you have any proof that to begin with they are poor....
Arti
As to Broadway. The Broadway line for 50 years had 5 lines running on it prior to 67, and the 6th Ave only had 2 plus one during rush hours. Broadway should handle it.
This John guy just keeps whining about Chinatown, as if this low rise area needs that much rapid transit anyway.
Arti
>>>"as if this low rise area needs that much rapid transit anyway".
Have you ever travelled there? I seriously doubt it. Any time I'm anywhere in lower Manhatttan remotely near Chinatown (or Little Italy which borders it) all I can think of is crowds of people, crowds of people, and truly overfilled platforms. And I am quite familiar with overfilled Queens lines and the Lexington Avenue line for comparison.
Of course, this situation is hardly unique for a neigborhood in NYC, but it is most definitely in need of transit services. And the N/R line's stop there hardly even counts as far as I'm concerned (the entire line is known for infrequent service).
And how it is a "low rise" area - tall buildings abound there. Please explain this so that we can all understand. This is quite a built up ( and old) neighbohood.
[Have you ever travelled there? ]
I have, although I lack any real desire to go there. As far as Grand St it never looked really busy, but again I'm a Lex commuter, so I guess nothing is.
[And how it is a "low rise" area - tall buildings abound there. ]
I mean compared to Upper West/East Side, tha population density is lower. Also if you lose the Grand St stop you still have F & M.
Arti
Oh, I'd doubt that the population density is lower. And it's also an extremely busy market and shopping area, weekend and Sundays included. I have numerous unpleasant memories of overcrowding both on the streets and platforms concerning this. It can take 10 minutes (literally) to walk one block because of all the people going about there shopping and other business.
You're right. The population density is high, plus thousands of Chinese immigrants who live in southern Brookly traditionally make the trek to Chinatown every day to buy food for the family meal. Grand St. must remain open, even if served by a shuttle.
They could also use Canal and Shop there.
How many people get off the subway on their way home from work to buy fruit? I could see if this were a highway rerouting and people would actually be prevented from seeing these businesses, it would be a concern, but we are talking about people passing through underground. Unless the overpowering fish smell at Grand Street is so enticing to some?
I see plenty of people carrying those red bags of fruit and fish entering the station (for a ride to Brooklyn) or upon leaving the station.
I am in Chinatown often, I guess most people aren't and don't understand how it works.
Asian people tend to shop at at Ethnic Mom and Pop shops, because the larger chains do not carry their type of food, vegis and seafood. I go thru this every week with my wife. We shop one day American and 1 day Asian.
I'm not trying to start another off-topic thread here; I just want to clarify my point. I don't doubt that a lot of people go to Chinatown to shop. I do occasionally, as well, though I usually take a bus. Asians who live in largely non-Asian areas who shop in Chinatown will probably still shop in Chinatown if there is no Asian center near them. Even if the V were to go to Grand Street, if these shoppers are coming from Brooklyn, they probably would not go to 34 St and transfer to the V. The fact is, the Manhattan Bridge tracks are closing for necessary repairs, and there will be no Brooklyn service via Chrystie Street. What I meant is that there most likely won't be business lost by the diversion of "pass-by" trips; those for whom Chinatown is a destination will still go to Chinatown, be it via shuttle train, bus, or other subway line.
LOL. The Broadway line can easily handle all the new service. It handled even more for decades prior to 1967. It did fine with 5 lines in 86-88.
Chris, that is what I have been saying. 5 lines on Bdwy
Excuse me; the 63rd St. connector will serve far more than "rich Jewish people!" The V will serve every ethnic group along its 7 1/2 mile route in Queens, including plenty of poor Jews, rich non-Jews, and even Chinese! And if you're so upset about riders in Brooklyn getting screwed because the TA is playing to the "rich Jews in Queens," keep in mind that the B serves Borough Park, the D serves Flatbush, Brighton Beach, and Sheepshead Bay, and the J, M, and Z, which lost service over the Williamsburgh Bridge a couple years ago, serves Williamsburgh! As much as I like to know who is filled with hate so I know who to avoid, I think it's better to keep the racial slurs to ourselves here...
It's more about irresponsible planning I guess. To me it is incomprehencable how the TA can just tell Grand street riders that they will have to take a shuttle or walk 15 minutes out of their way.
There's nothing at 2nd ave, that station is not very busy, compared to Grand street. I guess the TA pretends people don't exist.
[There's nothing at 2nd ave, that station is not very busy, compared to Grand street. I guess the TA pretends people don't exist. ]
It has been said here for about 1000 times that you can't use Grand street to turn trains around, your political agenda can't really change it! And by the way there is ample of bus service to connect to the 2nd Av station from "the bustling heart of Chinatown"
Arti
You meant they can't install a switch to turn trains around? Why?
It would cost some $20M and it's not in the capital plan.
Arti
I'd do it anyway. Making Grand St. a usable terminal would make everyone happy. The V could run there until the north side opens back up.
However, with the loss of access from the southern Brooklyn BMT, even this won't prevent the loss of business to Grand St. establishments.
From Brooklyn they would take the train to Bdwy Canal. That is where Chinatown is, Grand is still the Lower Eastside, or they can transfer at Bdwy Canal to the J/M/Z to Bowery or Essex St and walk. That worked for 50 years before Christie St opened.
Or they could walk NOT on Canal but on paralleling side streets.
Arti
And it would be in use for three years, with tons of other stations in easy walking distance.
$20 Million for a switch? Must be more than just a switch!
Take a look at MTAs web site under contracts section, that'll give you an idea what things cost for.
[$20 Million for a switch? Must be more than just a switch! ]
Of cource there's more than just a switch, trackbed, tunnel reconstruction, communication systems to control the switch etc.
Arti
Second Avenue was the closest stop to my last two apartments, and there are plenty of people who live, work, and go out on 1 Ave/Allen St. and Ave A/Essex St. between Stanton and 6th Streets. It's also a transfer point to the M9, M15, and and M21 buses, two of which serve eastern Chinatown. I agree that the station itself is a disaster; maybe its new role as a terminal (other than for occasional rush hour B trains) will improve that. The Grand Street station will probably get some much needed renovation, as well, with minimal disruption to customers, because the TA will be able to close off half the station (assuming the shuttle will operate on a single track). If the TA wanted to pretend people didn't exist, it wouldn't offer service, period.
Well I agree Grand street needs some work. More entrances would be nice (there's only one exit from platform level). Also the station is heavily used and shows it.
I'm not saying nobody lives near 2nd avenue, but I've seen both 2nd avenue and Grand in the afternoon and Grand is alot busier.
It's more heavily used because the south side is closed and access to Canal St. from the bridge is impossible. Grand St. would see a noticable dropoff if BOTH sides of the Manny B were open.
Congratulations John - you certainly are straightforward with all your considered opinions as to "the rich jewish people in Queens" who you say "get the better service."
You obviously don't use the subway lines in Queens very much. If you did - then even a mind as small as yours would realize that Queens line services on the E, F, G and R are nothing to brag about. Alot of people actually ride the line wrong direction back to 179th terminal to even be able to get on a train. Service is beyond packed. And that service is certainly no better than anything offered in Manhattan.
I think your real intention was to air your jew hating thoughts and see if you could gain some followers.
Most of us here are railfans or subway fans. I don't believe the folks who visit this forum expect to find jew hating rhetoric.
So if you want to blather on with your jew hating - take it some place else.
BTW - it's easy to hide who you are on this forum. I guess that's why you post your hate remarks here. Of course, a real man would wouldn't hide - -
John, if you want to do jew Hateing, bet you if a INS made a raid on the Grand St Station, 80 pct of the people there would be undocumentd people. It works both ways.and I am Jewish, married top a 3/4 Filipina 1/4 Chinese
I'm not a jew hater. I am just making the point that areas like Kew Gardens and Forest Hills that have high jewish population which happen to do well, have more political clout, than the chinese in Chinatown.
I never said anything bad about jewish people, but about the TA's poor planning. I never said Queens BLVD is a picnic either. I just find it incomprehencable that the TA can demote Grand street in such a severe way, even though it's packed almost all the time.
They'd never give Queens residents the shaft like that. Just think of all the outrage that would happen if they made the N a permanent shuttle from Queensboro Plaza to Astoria. It would never happen. But the chinese immigrants, as well as many other poorer minorities in NYC, are ignored by the media and the powers that be.
Queens residents get the shaft by having had the most population increase over 40 years of any borough in NYC and the least increase in subway service. The only additions to the subway were the extension of 7 service to Main St, the Queens Blvd line from 169 to 179th St (both a very, very long time ago, maybe I shouldn't even mention them), the Archer Av extension, and the 63rd St line now completed. The Main St station renovation, for $3.5 million more, could have been constructed in such a way as to allow further extensions of the 7 line (placing ADA elevators inside the entrance to Stern's). We have Julia Harrison, in part, to blame for that.
>>>We have Julia Harrison, in part, to blame for that. <<<
Who is she?
Peace,
ANDEE
Julia Harrison has represented the Flushing area on the City Council for eons (she's going on 78 years of age). She has accomplishments to her credit, but mass transit is not one of them. With her seniority, she was in a good position to push for rail improvements. Instead, she obstructed (even if passively, by not advocating)progress in her own district.
Well Queens is underserved by the subway, especially eastern sections. Many people pack buses to Flushing and Jamaica to get to the subway.
It was stupid to design the Flushing station in such a way that the 7 cannot be extended. Well at least they can extend the IND. I think that the F express tracks to 179st should be connected to an extension all the way down Hillside to the city line.
The other problem is that there aren't enough crossings, currently only 3 (will be 4 when the connector opens). This hasn't increased to keep up with population.
The "G" needs to go somewhere. I think a new river tunnel needs to be built. Perhaps a tunnel to replace the Manny B tracks, tied into some connection so that the G can run into Manhattan.
But any new projects are like pulling teeth, they are near impossible with all the red tape, NIMBY's, and lawyers. But if we just "got it done" it would be done.
If the G ran into Manhattan then what would the people going crosstown use? There are only two sections of the city that need more subway service; 2nd Avenue and eastern Queens.
Don't forget southeastern Brooklyn (East Flatbush, Flatlands, Manhattan Beach). They also have no subway service.
Manhattan Beach comes close enough.
It's closer from Kingsborough College to the Brighton Beach station than it is from Parts of Canarsie to the subway station there (say, Bayview Houses, Seaview Village, Paerdegat).
There are only two sections of the city that need more subway service; 2nd Avenue and eastern Queens.
The Javits Center?
The Javits Center does not NEED subway service. Not even close.
Explain the $1 billion+ price tag for the 7 line extension just for the Javits Center ALONE. What kind of daily ridership would you expect out of this new line? And be realistic.
What if the stadium is not erected?
True it will need it if a new stadium is erected but that stadium has as much of a chance of getting built as the 2nd Ave subway does. Build it when the stadium plans are given the go ahead and not before, otherwise you'll have another "tunnel to nowhere".
Staten Island?
True the R could connect to SI.
That part of the city could also use subway service. But I'd be shocked if it ever came about. Once Giuliani leaves office, SI will probably become the city's red-headed stepchild once again.
Yes, indeed. Queens only has (I)two (/I) large subway trunklines (the Queens Blvd and the FLushing line). The Astoria line (which I frequented in times past) is a short 6 station line, and the Jamaica (J,M, Z) only has short terminal segments present in Queens. Same for the A train.
Compare this to Brooklyn or the Bronx, each with its (great and certainly also needed) numerous lines, and the disparity is obvious.
Brooklyn (at least 7 lines): Jamaica line (J, Z,M), Canarsie, Sea Beach, Culver, Brighton, West End, and IRT (Flatbush, Eastern Parkway) lines. All of these are major lines.
Bronx (4 major lines): IND Concourse, IRT DYre AVe./White Plains Road (I'll let it count as one), Westchester AVe (#6) and Woodlawn. And I am not including the segment of the 1/9 in the Bronx.
- cordially, turnstiles
P.S. It did not forget Staten Island, which has only one rail line.
Just think of all the outrage that would happen if they made the N a permanent shuttle from Queensboro Plaza to Astoria.
A permanent shuttle? Where's the permanent shuttle? The shuttle to Grand is only while the tracks it connects to on the bridge are closed.
Don't forget that until 1967 (i.e., when the area around Grand was a Jewish neighborhood) there was no station there at all. The Jews managed to get by without it. Not even a shuttle.
Incidentally, we spell 'Jew' and 'Jewish' with a capital J.
Congratulations John - you certainly are straightforward with all your considered opinions as to "the rich jewish people in Queens" who you say "get the better service."
Don't forget, we're talking about New York, where practically all political matters have an ethnic component.
The 'rich Jewish people' of Queens don't USE the subway; they use the DOT express buses from Bay Terrace, North Shore Towers, the Union Turnpike corridor through Jamaica Estates/Hollis Hills and even from Forest Hills, which is in a one-fare zone! They also use the Port Washington branch of the LIRR, and the main line from Kew Gardens and Forest Hills, even though it's far more expensive than the subway.
Then there's always your SUV.
The large working-class Jewish immigrant population that's settled in Rego Park/Forest Hills/Kew Gardens and DOES ride the Queens Boulevard corridor is going to suffer plenty just trying to figure all these changes when they're implemented.
In recent years past, Jewish leaders complained religious discrimination played a hand in the lengthy construction-necessitated skip-stop pattern on the Brighton line and the fact that the 'B', which serves the heart of Borough Park, was mostly the older Slant 40s. Of course, no one considered fringe Borough Park and the heavily Orthodox lower Ocean Parkway corridor were served by the 'F' and its newer, 'fancy' R-46s.
Others may say the Chinese population gets preferential treatment because so many use the '7' to Flushing (with its large Chinese/Asian presence) and the '7' is widely considered the system's best line in terms of service, frequency, etc.
Any ethnic/income spin can be used to support ones' theory if one looks hard enough.
And I forgot to mention that there is poor bus service in Chinatown, so people there don't have many options.
Perhaps when the closure happens, they will increase bus service in the area.
Queens riders always have the alternative of the express bus or LIRR, but in Chinatown services are few. Without B,D, or Q, Grand street riders will find themselves walking on already packed sidewalks on Canal, to the Broadway station. This will make the severe pedestrian gridlock in the vicinity of the Canal street station even worse.
The streets will be clogged. Perhaps they should just close off lanes just so people can get through. If you've been to Canal street you know what I mean.
The M103 is very irregular and doesn't run often enough on Bowery, and there's no bus down Grand (there should be).
I think that those little minivans in Chinatown are gonna be alot more popular once the bridge switch happens.
[The M103 is very irregular and doesn't run often enough on Bowery, and there's no bus down Grand (there should be). ]
M15 on Allen, M14 on Grand. Also J & M on Delancey and Bowery, F at Delancy an Essex. That kind of walk to those alternate Suway stations is commonplace in most of the East Side.
Arti
I've also walked the distance before from Bowery station to Grand St station. That's the closest alternative station. Unless they really want to take the Lex local or BWay service I don't see why they must walk through the pedestrian congestion through Canal when they could've just used the Bowery.
DELANCY ON THE F IS 2 BLOCKS NORTH AND 2 BLOCKS EAST.
2 blocks north you would reach the Bowery. Then about 5 smaller blocks to the east would you reach Delancy/Essex. That's not too far also. They can walk there (Del./Ess.) also if the frequency of the Nassau St line gets to them.
I knew it was only 2 blocks from Grand to Delancy, I forgot how Many blocks East and West.
Download the bus map from MTA website, this gives you a better idea where stations are geographically than the Subway map.
Arti
There used to be a bus on Grand -- the M8 -- but nobody rode it. Well, I once did, and I was the only passenger. So it was cancelled.
Didn't it run few times a day?
Arti
It ran a few times an hour. I think it was on 20-minute headways, but I'm not sure.
The 'rich Jewish people' of Queens don't USE the subway; they use the DOT express buses from Bay Terrace, North Shore Towers, the Union Turnpike corridor through Jamaica Estates/Hollis Hills and even from Forest Hills, which is in a one-fare zone! They also use the Port Washington branch of the LIRR, and the main line from Kew Gardens and Forest Hills, even though it's far more expensive than the subway.
The large working-class Jewish immigrant population that's settled in Rego Park/Forest Hills/Kew Gardens and DOES ride the Queens Boulevard corridor is going to suffer plenty just trying to figure all these changes when they're implemented.
From what I've observed, a substantial percentage of the LIRR's ridership at Forest Hills and Kew Gardens stations is Asian, Indian and to a lesser extent Hispanic.
Walk to another station if you don't want to ride the shuttle. Within a 15-minute walk of Grand you can reach all of the Manhattan trunk lines except the A/C/E, 1/2/3/9, and 7. Not many residential neighborhoods can boast such service.
And cut the racism. "The heart of bustling new Chinatown" was part of the Jewish Lower East Side when my mother grew up there.
"And cut the racism. 'The heart of bustling new Chinatown' was part of the Jewish Lower East Side when my mother grew up there.
I'm guessing your mother also grew up there sometime before 1967.
Main problem is walking along Canal street is no picnic. It is very crowded, and a traffic jam of people. And add all the new people walking down Canal when the bridge flip happens and there will be pedestrian gridlock. They need to widen sidewalks at the expense of the cars. Just another reason why cars for personal use should be banned from the city.
Main problem is walking along Canal street is no picnic. It is very crowded, and a traffic jam of people. And add all the new people walking down Canal when the bridge flip happens and there will be pedestrian gridlock. They need to widen sidewalks at the expense of the cars. Just another reason why cars for personal use should be banned from the city.
Many of the vehicles driving along Canal Street are just passing through Manhattan. Remember that Canal is the direct route between the Manhattan Bridge and the Lincoln Tunnel. If you look at the vehicles on Canal on any weekday, you'll see a very high percentage of commercial vehicles as opposed to passenger cars.
You are correct about the very slow walking speeds along Canal Street's sidewalks. Probably the only practical solution would be to limit the number of open-air storefronts, but that would be highly controversial as many Chinatown merchants depend on these businesses for their livelihoods.
You mean the Holland Tunnel, The Lincoln is at 40th
Too bad they couldn't build a tunnel for through traffic, then they could expand the sidewalks.
When the flip happens, while I'll occasionally use Canal on less crowded middays on weekdays, but most times I'll opt to add more time and take the 6th ave local (V or F) to Bway Lafeyette, then the shuttle to Grand.
Or I'll get off the 7 at GCT and have a sloooow M103 bus ride.
The crowds at Grand street are bad enough, especially in summer when it's hot and smelly, Canal street stinks much worse, and the crowds will be unbearable.
I'd rather get there later, than earlier and be so hot and tired I can't shop or walk around. I must avoid Canal street. Alot of these small storefronts, especially toward Broadway&Canal aren't even chinese, that whole area just has this cheap flea market kind of feel.
Too bad they couldn't build a tunnel for through traffic [on Canal Street], then they could expand the sidewalks.
Back in the 1950's or early 1960's, there was an idea for a Trans-Manhattan Expressway that indeed would have taken most of the through traffic off Canal Street. It also would have destroyed most of Soho*, and eventually died in the face of heavy community opposition.
You can find more information at Steve Anderson's site.
* = in fairness to the Expressway's proponents, Soho at the time was a rather run-down manufacturing and commercial area, nothing at all what it's like today. Destroying it therefore was not a totally outrageous idea as it would be now.
The highway should still be built.
We've come a long way, and we can build an unobtrusive looking highway with buildings beneath it. We can save the facades of the landmarked buildings and build tasteful overpasses that match the buildings over the cross streets.
So walk along Grand. Or walk to the Bowery. Or walk to Delancey/Essex. Or walk to East Broadway. Or live with the crowds.
No, I'm sorry, I forgot. The Transit Authority is to provide you with a personal subway station at your door, to be paid for by those rich Jews in Queens. (The fact that those Jews who are rich worked hard to get there is beside the point.)
Neighborhoods always change. For example, Forest Hills during the time of the Dual Contracts was a notably WASPish neigborhood (with numerous ads for apartments prominently advertising their distance from the city), something that could not be said of it today. Dislike of the city (meaning Manhattan and its then undesirable Catholic, Jewish, and certain other new European immigrants of the time) strongly appealed to certain people in NYC at that time (as it does to some today). There is nothing wrong with neighborhoods changing; it often can be a sign of progress.
- cordially, turnstiles
Of course, and I have nothing against that. But it takes a lot of chutzpah to blame the temporary loss of service to Grand on the Jews, when that same neighborhood, when occupied by the Jews, didn't even have a station at Grand.
[Then again, the TA could care less about the Chinese people in Chinatown, rather, the rich jewish people in Queens are more important and get the better service, and the V serves them, not Grand street in Chinatown. Pure politics as usual. When will we ever learn!]
When will YOU ever learn? Bigotry is not acceptable, anytime, anywhere, anyplace! Maybe you should walk over to Canal and take a ride on the R train up to Queens. Many Asian people live in Elmhurst, which is on the R line . . . and in QUEENS! I know because I've been there and many Asian kids went to my high school and Elmhurst is where many of them lived. The V train will be going through Elmhurst and therfore many Asian people WILL benefit from its service.
Once again, you are dividing people in your postings and are up to your old Commie tricks again and I know what I need to do. It's the Killfile for you! Oh by the way, I happen to be Jewish and I don't like your extremely nasty and ignorant comments about my people (which are shared by Stalin, Hitler and the KKK). Oh and I live in Williamsbridge by the #2 line IN THE BRONX, which is by no means a rich area!
On the map, Grand Street looks like just another of those "stop for a stop's sake" stops we all hate. I wouldn't call mine an accurate sample, but on the few times I have ridden the D or Q trains, at widely varying times of day and week, it didn't seem that the station circulated much traffic into and out of the trains. But I will accept your assessment that it is a busy stop.
The point another poster made that Grand does serve more traffic than Second Avenue does make sense, but Grand Street is already shoehorned in such that how can it be made into any workable terminal station with frequent turns-around (do you call these "relays?")?
The reason for making 2nd Avenue the terminus was because it is a four-track station with greater flexibility and capacity. I highly doubt that the TA was deliberately trying to shaft an ethnic population for the benefit of another. That is grasping at straws, and makes me wonder what the REAL purpose of this board is -- Railroad engineering or social engineering -- as this is not my first run-in with the group vis-a-vis our social, political, or cultural opinions. In fact, neither social, political, nor cultural considerations were EVER made in my original post on this topic. How does everyone else see some non-railroad motives in my posts when all I am presenting is railroad-related text?
#1 Brighton Exp Bob said, "Grand Street probably has more money going through it then most of the Local Stops on the Queens Lines(Tokens-Metrocard fares etc.)" Maybe, but Grand Street is served by three different branch lines (two of which are through-expresses), and is located conveniently close to all Manhattan business districts, while the Queens lines are served by the painfully slow and infrequent if not nonexistent G and R trains. What incentive do Queens Blvd riders have to ride the subways instead of the plentiful express buses or other alternatives, whatever they may be?
Also, Grand Street is a full-time destination/origin station from all points in the city. The traffic on the Queens lines mainly embarks in the AM, and slides out the exit in the PM, and is otherwise desolate. It is unfair to gauge the traffic between a string of commutation stops and a hub of activity radiating to and from all points, just the same as it is unfair to gauge the activity of a beehive with respect to the surrounding flowers. They are both important in their own right, but it is easier to relocate or disband a central "hive" temporarily than to relocate or otherwise accommodate a field of scattered flowers.
Grand St. is one of the busiest stops on the lower east side, and it's a vital station for the chinese population of southern brooklyn who travel to chinatown. A large percentage of this crowding will move to Canal St. when the flip occurs.
It IS a very busy station.
(Grand St. is one of the busiest stops on the lower east side, and it's a vital station for the chinese population of southern
brooklyn who travel to chinatown. A large percentage of this crowding will move to Canal St. when the flip occurs.)
The Chinese community in Sunset Park grew up when the N was an express via bridge, with a short commute to 8th Avenue -- Canal, Pacific, 36th, 59th, 8th Avenue.
Since the current service pattern was established, more Chinese have moved to Bensonhurst on the B line, which now is a better ride to Chinatown.
With 30 tph at Canal and just a shuttle at Grand, I'd expect almost everyone (except the homeless) to use Canal. Grand should be closed during the construction on the A/B tracks of the Manhattan Bridge. Perhaps they could spruce up the station.
Don't forget that there are apartment buildings right next to the Grand St. station. They can't move and need the station open, even if it's just served by a shuttle.
What they should have done is built the connection to Bowery, and Grand St. passengers could still use their entrance, and then take the Nassau lines one stop one direction for 6th Av. access at Essex, and go one stop the other way for Bridge service at Canal. This would have brought revenue to the desolate Bowery station.
I think if those Grand St. people wants to use the Bowery station they could've just walk there from the street, instead of going there via a transfer passage underground.
The Essex/Delancy transfer is already overcrowded. Adding more wont help.
Believe it or not, The Bowery station isn't as desolate as it used to be. Chinatown's ever growing borders have made this station much busier than I've ever seen it over the last 12 months. When the rehab is complete, it'll probably draw even more people.
They'll move to Canal St, the shuttle train, the M-15 and B-51 buses. They have more options than Roosevelt Island and Queensbridge when they were stuck with a shuttle, or Williamsburgh during the bridge construction, when all they had was the B-59. I agree Grand St. should be the terminal, but it probably isn't feasible.
I can't understand why when the built the Chrystie street connection years ago that they could have the option of IND trains from 6th ave running on the south side of the Manhattan bridge, whether for long term or short term disruption. This is a very important line, serving the heart of Chinatown.
The many people who use Grand street would've probably been able to solve this problem, easier than the TA. If i was in charge of the TA, years ago I would've been the problem coming and ordered an immediate solution, whether installing a connection from Chrystie to the H tracks, or building a new tunnel. And we would worry about money later. The pockets of the rich are always deep, and with the might of the military we could've gotten it done.
I proposed a temporary track connection from the south side tracks to the Grand St station, but I was told that it was impossible to do.
Unfortunately the lower roadway is in the way. Of course if I was in charge we'd just close the lower roadway and connect both sides.
Unfortunately, car drivers have alot more say than us transit riders, so we're screwed.
I'm going to survey some pols I know to see what might be possible here. The worst that could happen is I get laughed out of someone's office.
How would trucks get into Manhattan then?
Or would you rather an iron curtain descend around the island?
"with the might of the military we could've gotten it done"
Huh?! The many excellent engineers that have come over the years from the Army Corps of Engineers into private practice notwithstanding, the Army isn't in the business of designing or building subways.
Well, they're expert trench diggers. That's a start ...
The military would be there to stop and immediately arrest those individuals who oppose the project and try to disrupt contruction.
[The military would be there to stop and immediately arrest those individuals who oppose the project and try to disrupt contruction. ]
Will they be shot immediately or tortured first to reveal others who oppose the construction?
Arti
Slapped with lead-lined gloves.
Or maybe sent to reeducation camps. Actually if they were to send everyone to these camps (like Khmer Rouge did)there would be no need for that construction to begin with:-)
Arti
Yes there would, John's limousine would need to go somewhere?
I also feel that there will be some sort of uproar from the Brooklyn side. The number of passengers riding the "F" from Brooklyn to the 53rd Street stations (5th Avenue and Lexington Avenue) is not insignificant. This move will force these riders to change from the "F" to a "V" (or maybe an "E") train somewhere along 6th Avenue to reach their destination ... a change that currently doesn't need to be made! Perhaps some additional thought is required here!
Screwing southern BMT/IND riders for the sake of conveinence of northern BMT/IND riders is nothing new. How did they explain to Culver riders in 1967 that their train was now the F instead of the D, even though absolutley no difference in service existed?
People will adjust. F riders can be thankful that their train doesn't run through Dekalb Ave. Those other riders will have to make even bigger adjustments next August.
The F Riders change change to the E at W 4th or the Q-Local at 34th
I think they should have the V going through 63rd street with the F, since I cannot understand having only one line running through 63rd street. Then you could put more E's through 53rd street.
You have outlined several of the reasons why I believe that having 3 Queens Blvd. expresses, E, F, and Q, with 12 tph (via 53rd), 9 tph (via 53rd), and 9 (via 63rd) tph, respectively, with V (via 63rd) and R (via 60th) providing local service, would be preferable to the current plan.
Bill, I'm impressed with the logic of your post. I have only one thought though. I think the real pounding will take place at Continental Avenue.
About a year ago I had proposed that instead of 14 V trains, add 9 thains to the F and 6 to the R. Rather than creating a new service, the F & R alternate between 53rd St and 63rd St, or 60th St. and 63rd St. respectively. Using the arrangement for the F & the R diamond via 63rd St. and F & R circle through the normal route. This will give F riders a choice. It will give R riders a choice and will also reduce traffic through the 60th St. tunnel which will be handling the R, the N and the W. While some condfusion might be anticipated initially, people will adjust just as fast as to the V train. (thoughts?)
About a year ago I had proposed that instead of 14 V trains, add 9 thains to the F and 6 to the R.
Let's see. There are currently 27 tph E's and F's running between Continental and Queens Plaza. This will become 36 tph by adding 9 trains to the F. This is within the signal system's design capability. They used to run 34 tph in the mid 1950's.
My question is why does NYCT have to spend $645 million for new construction if it has had the capability to add 9 more trains all along?
Stupidity. And safety concerns. Trains cannot run as close to each other as they could in the 1950's. Keying red signals was commonplace then. Today, you need special permission to do it.
Keying red signals was commonplace then.
No it wasn't nor was it necessary to maintain those schedules.
What was more commonplace back then were the number of available cars.
Keying red signals was more commonplace back then. Even just 10 years ago trains regularly keyed by red signals. After a few collisions, the practice was banned. It's effect of track capacity is debatable.
However, your point about more cars being available at the time is absolutley correct. Many lines could be increased today.....if more cars were available.
Adding 9 trains to the F does not add 9 trains per hour to the current traffic. It's roughly 3 TPH by my calculations. My point was building on Bill's hypothesis that there would be massive swapping of trains at Roosevelt Avenue, my contention was that this could be avoided if the F trains alternated routes rather than creating a new service. As to the $645 million - I can't answer that since the original concept arose in the 60s. However, it is a reality today. The question is how best to make use of the new route.
I clearly misunderstood your proposal. Your clarification does raise another point.
I thought the object of the Queens Connector was to provide more service for the Queens Blvd lines. I would have assumed that the most economical way to do this (in terms of number of trains used) would have been to run some short routes. I would estimate that a local running between Forest Hills and 2nd Ave would have a running time of 40 minutes. I would assume that could translate to a sustained headway of 7 minutes for 14 trains.
I think the headway would be quite a bit longer with your proposal. If you had planned to turn the added F's around at 2nd Ave and the added R's at Canal or Whitehall then your proposal is almost equivalent to that of NYCT.
What they really have to do, in my opinion, is
1) Have the QB express bypass 71st & Roosevelt during rush hours.
2) Use those express tracks East of Contintental.
3) Divert the F Express through 63rd Street. Cut the F to 14 tph, the same as from Brooklyn, and jack up the E as high as it will go.
With the trains running non-stop the whole length of the QB express, to a merge-diverge to 63rd Street, one should be able to jack up the TPH on the line. The stations and the slow merge at 53rd and 6th keep the lid on now.
Then run a Broadway train through to Continental as the extra local, using the switch at 63rd and Lex.
The real purpose of the 63rd. St. connector was to provide a path for a new route into Manhattan without increasing headways on existing routes. Replacing the G with the V does this.
Much too sensible. They'll never do it.
I think your idea is a good one, but I don't think the passengers would, as simple as it is, be able to grasp the idea of the difference between a circle F/R or a diamond F/R in regard to keeping straight in their heads as to which particular interval uses which tube. We're not talking about a local/express arrangement here and if a person gets on the wrong interval, they may wind up 10 blocks out of their way. I suppose it wouldn't be much of a problem to reprogram side signs of R46 cars to display "via 63rd St." or "via 53rd St.", but would it be possible to put a circle or diamond around a route letter in a side sign? If R trains would alternate ways out of Manhattan, the passengers at Lex/59 in the PM rush would start complaining about an uneven ratio of R's to N's (and W's would complicate matters) since the ratio would be OK only up to 57/7, but not at Fifth Ave./60th St. and Lex/59. Also in the non rush with R & F trains alternating via 53rd St & via 63rd St., you now have double midday & evening R & F headways for the few stations the two routes are seperated. Initially for the first few years while passengers get used to the new alternate route to Sixth Ave. and an IRT transfer at 63rd/Lex an impossibility, I don't think too many trains will be needed thru the new route. The heavy ridership will continue thru 53rd St. for quite awhile.
was there trackwork being performed last night that caused a delay or actual inability to load the message board?... or was there a sick poster aboard, who was ill from all the hostility floating around or perhaps from my sorry attempts at humor?... perhaps the latter, as i think i just heard someone retching right now... or has all the talk about the r-142's caused a sympathetic breakdown in the message board operation?... well anyway, things seem back to normal, or what at least passes for normal...
There was problem with the pipline between here and the rest of the net, I'm assuming. I had problems with other parts of the site as well.
-Hank
According to an e-mail from Dave Pirmann, there was some kind of problem "upstream from us" which has been causing a serious slowdown from Philadelphia to just about anywhere on the internet.
I'm in Baltimore and the site would not load last night about 11:48 PM.
I had it here in Hawaii also. But every thing here is slow in Maui, that is why Xmas I am gone. Here Today Gone from Maui to Virginia.
Good Luck to you on your new adventures in VA
Peace,
ANDEE
I think there had been a GO on the Expresss at www.nycsubway.org last night that caused problems for web-commuters....:-)
BMTman
Click Here
Just make sure the roll signs and bullders plates are salvaged.
Bill "Newkirk"
How hard does the pick up shoe on a car press aganist the third rail? Since there would most likely be a lot of friction between the shoe and the rail, does the rail wear down? If so, how often do third rails get replaced? My guess is that it just barely skims the rail, becuase you don't really hear any scrapping coming from there. And that would mean the third rail doesn't wear down that fast, so replacing it is not a concern. Am I right?
The shoe presses down or up on the 3rd rail fairly forcefully. Look at the end of a 3rd rail segment where there's a little ramp. You can see by where the skuff marks start exactly how much the shoe is displaced from normal. The rails do wear down, but the shoes are made out of a soft steel. This way the shoes wear down much quicker than the rail (unlike if the shoes were made of tungsten or something) and the shoes can be easliy replaced.
Ahh, yes, I didn't think of that. Soft shoes on a hard rail, makes complete sense. I'm aware of the little ramps you speak of, but I've never noticed the scuff marks on them. Guess I'll look a little closer next time. But it does make sense that the shoe be pressed down forcefully, becuase the train might sway or bounce, and we would't want all those electrical arcs sparking all the time. However, I think the sparks look pretty cool, especially outside at night. Another thing that is cool, I noticed this in NYC as well, that waiting on the platform, sometmes there would be a continuous current traveling between the third rail and the track bed. It's a cool looking effect, like a tiny lighting bolt lasting several seconds.
But it does make sense that the shoe be pressed down forcefully, becuase the train might sway or bounce, and we would't want all those electrical arcs sparking all the time. However, I think the sparks look pretty cool, especially outside at night.
You should visit Chicago sometime. The third rail shoes on CTA trains (except for the 2200's) are held down only by gravity. This, combined with the fact that CTA trains do plenty of swaying and bouncing on some of the older sections of the el, produces some incredible arcing action. I've seen far more arcing on CTA trains than on any other system. It's especially spectacular after a good rain or snowfall.
Another thing that is cool, I noticed this in NYC as well, that waiting on the platform, sometmes there would be a continuous current traveling between the third rail and the track bed. It's a cool looking effect, like a tiny lighting bolt lasting several seconds.
I've never noticed this before, but it sounds pretty cool. Guess I'll have to pay closer attention next time. Any locations where this is particularly evident?
-- David
Chicago, IL
I honestly can't tell you what stations I've seen this at, but they were all underground ones. The Lex IRT I believe was the time I saw it in NYC. It's a rare thing for me to see this, maybe 3 or 4 times all together. It's not something that would be easily noticed, it doesn't make any sound, and it's not bright. If I had to compare it to something else, it would be like one of those plasma balls.
Ok. Here's a stupid question, to augment Rob's. Since the 3rd rail and shoe are both metal, and friction between metal and metal usually produces sparks, why no sparks as the shoe drags along the 3rd rail? (It's been a loooong time since I was in Physics class....)
That's a great question.
A power she which does not consistently contact the third rail should cause arcing. The MBTA's Red Line is infamous for that (I'm referring to cars built by Pullman-Standard, not the new ones built by Bombardier). The shower of sparks from all along those trains is quite impressive. Undoubtedly they also help cause track fires. In one case, an oncoming Red Line train in Cambridge was heralded by a cloud of smoke.
We need to look up your original question, however.
The area on the 3rd rail shoe that contacts the 3rd rail is covered with graphite, and graphite does not wear out as much as the metal itself, plus graphite is a good conductor (as I mean electrical, not railroad). The shoe on the pantograph of regional rail cars, electric locomotives, and modern light-rail vehicles, and the shoe on the harp-and-shoe type of trolley pulley (?) is made of graphite as well, and they last twice as long as the traditional pulley. So that is why you don't see as many sparks as back in the old days.
Why are they scaling back the G line? We need more interborough service, not less! Why should I have to go through Manhatttan to get from Sunnyside to Park Slope? A new Queens-Brooklyn line would lessen the crowding in Manhattan.
If the G were to continue to operate to Forest Hills after the 63rd St connector opens, then the Queens Blvd. corridor would become a parking lot. The vast majority of people travel to/from Manhattan and thus makes the G a low priority line.
You will simply have to take the new V local to 23/Ely and then transfer to the G to continue your trip.
And a new Queens-Brooklyn crosstown line would be a total waste of money and would not alleviate crowding. The G between Court Square and Smith-9 Sts is a very lightly used line as it is. Who would want to travel to Brooklyn just to go to Manhattan? You're complaining yourself about travelling via a third borough, why do you think that other people would want to do the same? The TA is doing the right thing by scaling back G service and creating additional Manhattan V service.
The question is why did the IND planners even design this line.
Arti
It was meant to feed east/west IND lines headed for Manhattan. If the second system was completed as planned, the G (GG) line would've served a much more useful purpose.
Also to screw the old BRT Lexington El, which ran just a few blocks from it
Don't blame the TA for this one. Blame the long since retired public officials who envisioned a new line for Queens, not just an alternate way to get from Sixth Ave. to the Queens Blvd. IND.
I'm not blaiming TA, there was no TA back then, I questioned IND.
Arti
>>>Blame the long since retired public officials ....<<<
Try chaning that to long since DEAD public officials
Peace,
ANDEE
Capacity in Queens is needed for more Manhattan-bound service. With the x-fer at Court Square to the 53rd. St lines, going thru Manhattan to get to Park Slope is not necessary.
I think what is needed is one of those moving airport walkways at the Court Square transfer passage. I know I would complain about the long walk there.
Other options exist (L at Metropolitan Ave, A/C at Hoyt-Schermerhorn). I'd like to see an enclosed tunnel connecting the J/M at Lorimer to the G at Brodway built.
It is impossible to build a connection here, because of the TA storeroom beneath the intersection, and the buildings at street level
Is this storeroom irreplacable? What about the neighboring buildings makes the construction impossible?
They'll be lucky to have enough cars to operate the V line let alone to continue the G as is. I would be shocked if one trainset of R143's would be running when V service commences. It was well known long long ago that the G would be cut back to Court Sq. once the extension opened. Arguing this now is a moot point.
The G will be reduced to four cars. This will allow about half of the current R46 fleet assigned to the G to be reassigned. Still, it's not enough cars to supply the V line. Perhaps the bridge flip service plan frees up more cars than today's service plan needs.
I do wish Queens-Brooklyn service were better, and this is a setback, albeit an arguably necessary one for the system as a whole.
If it is possible with the limited supply of rolling stock, I'd rather the G were cut back only to 46th St and Broadway, taking advantage of the turnaround just shy of Northern Blvd. Then it would at least have an easy, direct connection to most of the Queens Blvd line.
Another thing they can do to help the cause of interborough travel is create some more transfers. You know, to go from 179th in Queens to many parts of Brooklyn is complex, requiring two, three, or even four transfers. If more were available between nearby stations in inner parts of Brooklyn and Queens, this would be immeasurably easier.
:-)Andrew
In turning a G train at 46th St./Northern Blvd., you would have to make sure all passengers are firstly off the train, then make a main line reverse move tie-ing up the rest of the railroad because of the time it takes you to turn around. Can't change crews there due to no facilties. Can't do it at Fourth Ave. either. Hope the crew members have large bladders because to guys have to pee sometime!
OK. Point taken.
:-)Andrew
Because every train that runs from Queens Boulevard directly to Brooklyn is one train that isn't running from Queens Boulevard to Manhattan. At this time, that's where additional service is warranted.
MARTA appointed a new General Manager yesterday, Nathaniel Ford. The article says he's held managment positions for BART and NYCT and grew up in NYC. Does anyone know this guy or his job performance? I hope he turns out to be a great GM and gets MARTA to expand.
Nat Ford was the Chief Transportation Officer for Rapid Transit Operations(subways) for the NYCTA.
This now means that Kevin O'Connell now has a 1 in 3 chance of becoming CTO. It could become one of the scariest appointments for subway employees since Paul Oversier and former pres. David Gunn.
I would think the Nat Ford you are thinking of is not the one! I think it may be his son. Nat Sr., I think, is a short way from retirement. Nat Jr. left for BART over 10 years ago along with TD Crystal Odom, daughter of a long since retired ATD from Euclid Ave.
I certainly hope that you're right as I would hate to see O'Connell in charge. I can see a whole bunch of little pet projects of his to drive all the workers nuts. There is something seriously wrong with that man.
Sorry,
I believe the Nat Ford Rob From Atlanta is referring to is actually the CTO of NYCT's son. He had already had a very high post in MARTA. I don't think Nat Ford Sr. is going any time soon...
-Harry
I didn't know there was a Ford Sr. and a Jr. It must be the Jr. becuase the article said that he has been with MARTA for over 3 years. Also, he's only 39. I hope he brings in more riders to MARTA and help to try to expand the system.
N. Ford Sr. is the Cheif Transportation Officer.
Last year F. Sallah went to Atlanta as the Cheif Mechanical Officer. He's back and running a maintenance facility here.
This was an in house promotion. Nat Ford Jr. was already with MARTA as a vice president
A brunette is standing on some train tracks, jumping from rail to rail, saying "21" "21" "21"
A Blonde walks up, sees her and decides to join her. She also starts jumping from rail to rail, saying "21" "21" "21" Suddenly, the brunette hears a train whistle and jumps off the tracks just as the Blonde is splattered all over the place. The Brunette goes back to jumping from rail to rail , counting "22" "22" "22"
Q: How can you tell a blonde from a redbird?
A: Redbirds have bulkheads that actually work.
i thought we had all agreed not to do any more ethnic jokes here.
Blond is not an ethnic joke.
..Thank You Jeffrey!
Special Retro Edition, How the smart ass punk Trainmaster told CSX to
stuff it, and not get fired.
>
> During my days as a Terminal Trainmaser at IHB's Blue Island Yard,I was forced to endure numerous bad judgement calls by those that ranked far above me. These powers that be opened an auto switching facility at the Gibson West End Yard. They later expanded it to handle more trains in and out of this facility. Unfortuantely, they were seriously underbuilt and had
nowhere near the capacity to handle the volume of business they had set themselves up for. So, to alleviate the congestion at Gibson, they would send some of the auto trains to be switched to Blue Island instead. We would yard them
in the "west yard" which was located on the north side of the north
receiving and departure yard.
>
> The west yard was normally used to set outbound trains heading west and also for storage of cars for Corn Products Corporation. This was not an auto switching yard. But little did they care what we thought. We were instructed to make this work. They couldn't, so they expected us to bail them out of the mess they created. This must be the "delegation of duties" they taught us in college business management classes. By using the west yard to
switc> autos, we now lost valuable space to set outbound manifest trains. This period I am discussing was also a period when we were already plugged at Blue. All kinds of trains were coming in, but nobody was giving us crews
to take trains out. I had two CP 504 trains ready to depart. There were two GTW 468 type trains to depart. No crews were forthcoming though. There were other trains to leave as well and again, no crews.
>
> I should explain about the CP trains; these are CP haulage trains operated across CSX's former Pere Marquette line. They are staffed with CSX crews even though they are CP trains. CSX placed all kinds of restrictions on them as did CP Rail.They could not be longer than 7000 feet long including the power as the longest sidings on CSX were 7000 feet in length. A train with only two SD40 type units was restricted to 5200 tons. a train with three units was restricted to 7000 tons. This was so they could pull them up through the Detroit River tunnel grades. So, we couldn't load these trains down to get the cars out of the yard.
>
> I have a yard that is completely plugged. All the inbound and outbound tracks are stuffed full of cars to hump from inbound trains, or outbound trains with no crews. My west yard is stuffed full of autos being switched, to be switched, or awaiting crews for outbound trains. CSX won't give me a crew for a 504 train. I have two tracks full of cars for CSX proper that they are refusing as Barr Yard is plugged as well. I have trains coming
from every direction and nowhere to put them. I have almost 1000 cars in the hump now. 1200 cars is the total saturation point in the hump, commonly referred to as "the garden." Thing are rapidly going to hell in a handbag. Then, to make matters worse, the Assistant Manager of Train Operations (also
referred to as "the desk" or "the back room") calls and tells me that CSX is telling him they have a CP 537 train coming for us. I have already taken a CP 505 in this day and they are telling me they have no crews to give me for a 504. Great. This particular guy is Bud, a pretty good guy to work with. Key phrase, work with. He works and plays well with others.
>
> What to do in this situation? I calmly tell Bud at the desk that I am refusing the train. I instruct him to tell CSX if they won't give me any crews for 504, they don't get to bring in any other trains today. He laughs and asks what I was smoking and if he could have some too. We discuss the rapidly deteriorating situation at Blue and how CSX is screwing us (not
the exact terminology we really used) nine ways from Sunday. He agrees with me and decides to join me in my court here. A unified front! Well, unified middle anyway. He asks by who's authority should I show this decision? I tell him "mine." He goes back and informs CSX operations that we are refusing the train until they give us a crew for one of the outbound 504 trains.
>
> Let the games begin!
>
> About ten minutes later, I get a phone call from the CSX Chief Dispatcher from the Pere Marquette side. He informs me that I have to take the train. I tell him I do not and have no intention of doing so until they give me a crew or two to move some of the trains I have here first. He calls me some sort of terrible name akin to excrement and hangs up.
>
> About twenty minutes after that, some Corridor Manager from Jacksonville calls. He tells me I cannot refuse to take a CP train. I tell him he is wrong. He too calls me some bad name and hangs up. Then, I get a call from Montreal and CP wanting to know why I wont take their train. I fill this guy in our situation and how CSX won't give me any crews to handle his trains. He says he will go to work on that immediately. A few minutes later, the
CSX Corridor Manager calls me back telling me that my sanity must be a bit skewed. I tell him if he gives me a crew for a 504 train, I'll be able to handle 537 after I get 504 out, not a moment sooner. He goes ballistic and again calls me all sorts of names bringing family heritage into it. I hang up on him.
>
> But wait, there's more! About fifteen minutes after that, I get a call from the General Manager of Transportation for the entire CSX system in Jacksonville. He starts of the conversation with something to the effect
of "listen you smart ass punk". I hung up on him. He calls right back and starts again. I hang up again. Then, Bud at the desk calls. He tells me of threats on his life, assaults on his mother and family and other terrible acts of aggression CSX is planning if we don't take 537. I tell him to be tough and hope that his mother has lead a full and rewarding life. He
laughs but remains steadfast loyal to the cause. Ya, that's what this has become,
a cause. Shortly thereafter, The CSX GM calls again. His first words are to the effect of "don't you hang up on me again you asshole!" Click.
Another CSX official calls. He starts into a tirade about how I'm going to screw up their operations. I inform him that they have really destroyed ours so I guess turnabout is fair play. I again tell him that if I get a crew for 504, they will get 537 in, plain and simple. He calms a bit and says he'll see what he can do.
>
> The GM calls back again, a little calmer this time. The prozac must be kicking in. He explains that they cannot hold the train on CSX property. We must take the train. I inform him that I have no place to park the train. He suggests I "stick it in some siding somewhere." I have to restrain my self from telling him where I think he should stick it. I inform him there is
no siding anywhere between CP Cal Park where the train exits CSX rails for IHB rails and Blue Island. He insists that there is somewhere to hold it. I tell him there is, on CSX property. He gets rather upset with this comment and begins to get mad again. He orders me to take the train. He informs me
that he has much more rank than I do. I remind him that I do not work for CSX, I work for a Conrail subsidiary and he is not my boss and cannot order me to do anything on my property. He again calls me a bad name and again, I hang up.
> Another call from Bud at the desk with threats on his life and now my life too. I told him to tell the CSX folks that I am not scared as I have Sicilian heritage and can make a couple of phone calls too. He laughs and remains ever loyal to the cause. A good man that Bud.
> Another call from CSX wanting to know if they give me a crew for 504, will I really take 537? I tell them yes. They say okay, we'll give you a crew. I tell him that when 504's crew arrives and calls to check in, we'll turn 537 loose. I may have been born at night, but it wasn't last night. He gets mad and starts screaming. Click.
>
Those CSX folks are sure rather high strung. All they seem to have for
communication skills is screams and threats. Certainly not good people
skills. I wonder if this is what they teach them in Jacksonville? And here I thought Florida was more on the laid back side.
> Another call, this time from my big boss, the General Superintendant. He tells me he is at the golf course and gets all kinds of pages from Montreal and Jacksonville. It seems that some smart ass punk Trainmaster is attempting to tell the great CSX how to run their railroad. He laughs when
I tell him "someone has to as they don't seem to be able to do it on their own." He is very calm, almost joking as he asks exactly what is going on. I fill him in on the entire saga. He laughs and says what I did was a good idea, but............... in the future, if I do something like this again, please let him know
about it first. This way he will know exactly what is going on when everybody that is anybody from CSX and CP calls him screaming and yelling. He'll be abot to explain it to them. I wasn't in trouble! He supported the cause! One of
the few times I ever got support from senior managment. Chalk one up for the punk Trainmaster!
> The Corridor Manager calls back a few minutes later and informs me that we will have a crew for 504 at 1800 Chicago time. Cool! I inform him that when I talk to the crew and get them on their train to start doubling up, Iwill release 537. He begrudgingly goes along with this plan. He keeps asking me if I will really ake the train. I reassure him that I will. He seems greatly relieved, almost at peace.
> I call the East Yardmaster and inform him that when 504's Conductor calls, have him call me as well without fail.
> About 1845, I get a call from 504's Conductor. He tells me the yardy has given him his doubling instructions, he has the clerk getting his paper work together and is now calling me as instructed. CSX is very slick. They will send a crew over for a train, then contact them and instruct the crew to
get into a cab and head somewhere else instead. They were notorious for this. I inform him that under no circumstances is he to leave this yard without being on that train. If he is contacted by CSX telling him to leave, he is to contact me immediately and under no circumstances, will he leave the yard in a cab. Period! He acknowledges these instructions.
> Shortly after I talked to 504's Conductor, a CSX Trainmaster from Barr calls and wants to know if 504's crew is here. I tell him they are and there will be no way they leave here without this train. He agrees and just wants to know if we will be taking 537 soon. I tell him yes. I aksed him if Jacksonville has him doing their dirty work. He laughs and says he has heard from people that he never knew existed before this affair started.
> When they get tied onto their train and start to pull out to double up, I call the desk and tell Bud to turn 537 loose. Some other CSX person calls wanting to know if 537 is being turned loose and it 504 is doubling up. I tell him yes and remind him that this wasn't really that difficult. He mumbled something about a sexual act I should perform on myself and hung up.
> 537 met 504 at School Street just east of the yard. 537 pulled his train into the two tracks that 504 vacated. I love it when a plan falls into place.
Trainmaster 1, CSX 0.
And so it goes.
Tuch
yeah--want more laughs? go to CSX website go to performance measures. See if you can imagine why some cars spend over 36 hours in a yard? Then remember that CEO John Smow supported Newtie in the budget waes and favored welfare cuts, but wants gov't money for extra tracks for commutter trains--because his RR is "at capacity, with time sensitive freight".
What a story!
The interesting thing is that if everyone had put as much effort into solving the basic problem (and it was solvable) as they did into finding ways to verbally abuse our storyteller, there would have been no story to post here.
"Its the lazy man who does the most work". Did you read the last Hot Times I posted? The one w/ the exploding turbo-charger? That one's just as funny. I will continue to post more and although they may not be as funny as the last two they are very informative and I usually end up rolling on the floor.
Could you possibly email me the one about the exploding turbocharger? I didn't have the change to read it.
talgo79@aol.com
http://www.nycsubway.org/cgi-bin/subtalk.cgi?read=172349
I have a 500+k archive if you want me to mail you that.
nice
I saw Unbreakable last night. Not a great movie, but it did have some good train scenes. My observations:
1. EastRail 177 is made up of unrefurbished Amfleet cars from Amtrak. You can see the illuminated signs reading EXIT, CAFE, and RESTROOM. I couldn't identify the type of engine, but it is number 177. This is shown when Elijah and David shake hands at the end of the movie.
2. While EastRail 177 crashes outside of Philadelphia, I don't think it was taped there. The NY-Philly corridor is nothing like that. The station the train leaves before Philly looks like an Orange Line CTA Station.
3. A Septa bus with a number starting with 3 and ending with 1 (think it was 3421) is shown at one point. Couldn't see a destination sign.
4. The scene in which Elijah is chasing the guy who had the gun in the stadium, the guy with the gun heads into a subway station. The stairs he go down lead to a Regional Rail platform. I saw a General Electric Silverliner on that platform which appeared to be above ground. I caught a glimpse of street signs before they head down the stairs, but couldn't catch an intersection. These stairs should lead to either the MFL, BSL, 10, 11, 13, 34, or 36. There was also no fare control in this station.
5. The Drexel University Stadium was definately filmed from just east of the Amtrak ROW. The bridge from University City to 30th Street that carries the R1, R2, and R3 is clearly visible.
6. 30th Street was shown to be half its real size. The station looked like the one in "X-Men".
My ratings:
TRANSIT DEPICTION: B+
MOVIE OVERALL: C-
COMMENTS: THERE ARE BETTER MOVIES TO SEE.
You seemed to have missed the other 2 posts about this movie.
5. The Drexel University Stadium was definately filmed from just east of the Amtrak ROW. The bridge from University City to 30th Street that carries the R1, R2, and R3 is clearly visible.
That was the University of Pennsylvania's Franklin Field. If you said that near a Penn grade they'd pummel you.
Regarding 4 that sceene was filmed at the University City regional rail station which is located right accross from Franklin Field on Spruce St. They duded it up with fare control (correct SEPTA 'styles tho) and "Subway" signs at the entrance.
The bridge from University City to 30th Street that carries the R1, R2, and R3 is clearly visible.
The bridge is the NS High Line (Harrisburg Line) the suburban tracks are at ground level.
The station they used looked nothing like 30th St. or any other real station. It was a set.
The crash sceen was probably filmed on the Harrisburg Line between PAOLI and DOWNS.
The Amtrak cars looked too plush and roomy to be standard Amfleet. They looked like a Cascades car. I also found it hard to believe that a train wreck in this age of FRA crash standards could kill every one in all the cars. Also it was a stretch that a security guard could afford Amtrak style service on a trip to NYC.
It is very possible that the station scenes were filmed at Trenton or Lancaster.
I'd give the movie a B-/C+ for transit depiction.
Obviously I did. What were the other two threads about this movie titled?
I know Philly well enough. At least I could figure out where it was. As for University City, it was too quick for me to figure out what it was.
I spent my summer taking classes at Penn and many of the good vantage points for shooting the Suburban line are seen in the film. The university city station is new and there is a blue footbridge where the tracks divide for the island platform. The location is very photogenic w/ the stadium, the catenary, a PL signal bridge and the hi-line.
That was the University of Pennsylvania's Franklin Field. If you said that near a Penn grade they'd pummel you.
They'd also typo you to debt!
You mean typot be to debt.
Back to the title topic (sort of), in "Gore Vidal's The Best Man", closing soon at the Virginia Theater on 52nd Street, a black-and-white TV news scene supposedly shows a former president getting off a train at 30th Street Station (arriving at the 1960 convention) setting foot on the ground outdoors with nary a platform in sight.
I don't know if this was discussed earlier. I've been out of town since the incident.
I was on the platform at Bedford Ave on the L, Tuesday, Nov. 14, around 8:45am, when a giant cloud of black smoke came out of the tunnel from Manhattan. It wasn't just a little smoke, it was totally enveloping. The MTA was supposed to start asbestos work in the tunnel Nov 17. Does anyone know what happened?
This board has discussed ad nausium possible solutions to the Manny-B dilemma, as well as how best to improve flexibility in the system. Some of our ideas are good; some fantasy; some absurd.
Here's a thought I don't recall seeing discussed. How about a flying junction between the IND 6th Avenue line and BMT Broadway line at 34th Street? Just imagine the flexibility that would ensue! Northern and southern termini as well as river crossings could be easily matched to meeet demand and reroutes as necessary.
Does anyone know how much separation there is between these two lines at 34th street, and if the infrastructure in the area would permit the necessary connections - in any form - simple or complex?
It would require massive construction, around the PATH and water tunnels in the area. The expense isn't justified. Building the Rutgers/Dekalb connection would make more sense.
I'd love to see a 3-D rendering of the infrastructure in that area, to see just how difficult it would really be!
I saw a crude one on the A&E subway special aired years ago. The 6th Ave line runs above the water tunnel, below the BMT and underneath the PATH (at the southern end of the station. An amazing engineering feat. I doubt a junction could be built here.
And don't forget the Conrail/Amtrak lines just south of all this!
Oh yeah. What a mess. How does it all keep from collapsing on itself? LOL
With all the money that they will need to change at Herald Square, they can finish the 2nd Ave Line
And the 6th Avenue el on top!
In the early years at the Transit Museum there was IIEC atiny relief model of the entire system . Presumably it showed--Icould not see in that detail from the edge of the display. If the data can be accessed from the TA, it would make a spectacular on line project.
Another project for your altimeter watch, sometime when you're really bored.
Depth measurements are easy to make (even when bored :-). The real problem is to find out the obstacles between the tubes.
No way that I can see for that to happen. There are too many obstacles in that area, not to mention the hardship on commuters if such a project were undertaken. A new tunnel under the East River to get all trains off the Manhattan Bridge would be a great achievement, since the bridge from what I have seen and read was not really designed for rail traffic ( suspension bridges are not good for rail traffic - light rail maybe, but not heavy rail ). Ideally, all lines should be in tunnels when crossing the East River, not on bridges, for safety matters.
I will be in around 9:45, but pigs will shre be there. We can discuss Idiots on the LIAR, ACELA and The SVM.
If the Roosevelt Boulevard subway is ever built, do you think it should connect to the Market-Frankford Line at Bridge-Pratt or to the Broad Street Line at Erie, or both? (I know this is supposed to be about New York, but Philadelphia is living in your shadow anyways).
We've actually had plenty of threads about transit in Philly. If it's about rail transit, it's relevant. About the Roosevelt Blvd Line, I think it should be connected to the Broad Street Line's express tracks. That would make for a much faster ride into Center City.
Also, it won't be good to connect the Roosevelt Blvd line to the MFL at Bridge-Pratt, since the trains on the el run so often, especially during rush hour. Also, I think it is funny how we don't really have any real names for our subway lines, like New York does. That shows how small our rapid transit system is in Philadelphia, and we can use street names to identify lines. Also, that shows that one line doesn't really go anywhere other than one or two streets that it follows.
Just trying to be as annoyingly NYCentric as possible.
Though nobody in any power has thought of this, a better idea would be an branch off the subway between Olney and Fern Rock (and here I am not talking about the little underground turback pocket behind Olney). Trains going to the Boulevard should proceed to the southern portal at Fern Rock (the one that now connects to the 1 track loop that is used to get around Fern Rock (the loop should be kept in service if possible). Then, an up incline should be built from the point of the portal, so it is high enough to clear the regional rail tracks east of Fern Rock. Then, it should proceed either as an elevated or along a railroad ROW until it reaches the Boulevard.
Where exactly do you plan for the Roosevelt Boulevard line to Terminate. I think it should go all the way to Pattison, but it wouldn't be able to if those trains used the express tracks, which is being used by the Broad Ridge and express trains, by the way...
If the new line ran through the Broad Street Express tracks it would have to stop at Walnut-Locust. According to plans proposed, the Roosevelt subway would conect with the Broad Street tunnels as well as make include a transfer point to the Market-Frankford line by extending the MFL to the intersection of Roosevelt and Bustleton. I think this would make both lines a lot more useful.
Michalovic
<<>>
This board is not limited to New York. Salaam rants about L.A.'s system, I badmouth The New Market-Frankford El trains, a couple of Boton postings, so it's not limited to New York.
At the least, specify that you're refering to Philly in the title, lest we assume you mean the Roosevelt Blvd in Queens.
-Hank
Is there a Roosevelt Blvd in Queens?
Nope
Although there are no streets in Queens called Roosevelt Boulevard, There are two subway stations with the name "Roosevelt."
Roosevelt Avenue on the
(soon to be )
Then there's Roosevelt Island on the (soon to be ).
Yes, there was a short time (Oct. 1989 to Apr 1990) when the went to 21-Queensbridge. You could get a 1-seat ride from Queens to Queens via Manhattan and Brooklyn. You can't find that anywhere in the subway now!
The "E" once upon a time , during Rush hours went the biggie from Jamaica ot Far Rock. Circa late 1950s and 1960s.
avid
36 miles, to be exact.
And, of course, every stop on the 7 from 74 St to Main St is on Roosevelt Ave (I think older maps may refer to "Main St-Roosevelt Ave").
Streetwise, there's also Roosevelt Street (one block, off Beach 9 St in Far Rockaway) and Roosevelt Walk (Breezy Point). The other boroughs have their shares of Roosevelts, as well; none of them have acheived Boulevard status :).
I don't think the Q will ever make it to Roosevelt Ave, unfortunately.
Actually, the 7 in on Rossevelt Ave well west of 74th. It turns from Queens Blvd ontp Roosevelt Ave at 48th St, between the 46 St-Bliss and 52nd St statons.
:-)Andrew
Oh, yeah :).
Also, I take back "Main St-Roosevelt Ave" on maps; all the maps I've checked say "Main St-Flushing"
Then there's Roosevelt Island on the Q B JFK(soon to be F).
Since when was Roosevelt Island, NY 10044 in Queens?
If you look carefully, you'll notice I said
"Although there are no streets in Queens called Roosevelt Boulevard, There are two subway stations with the name 'Roosevelt.'"
I never said anything about the subway stations being in Queens. All I said was that they carried the name "Roosevelt."
The phrasing of the sentence implies completely that you meant Queens.
Read it again:
Although there are no streets in Queens called Roosevelt Boulevard, There are two subway stations with the name "Roosevelt."
Where did you mention that you were moving on to the whole city?
With the redbirds retiring will they be some sort of auction,i would like to get some of the old roll signs and maybe some headlights, or the chains between the cars.
I don't know about an auction, but I know that they are going to cut up the redbirds and throw em' in the ocean.
There's a live chat going on right now. Click on the link above to join!
Does anyone know how many Train Operators the TA plan to hire and over what period of time? My list number is in the low 900's and already I have been scheduled to take a survey test next Saturday. I am just wondering will this lead to a job with the TA within the next few months. Any information would be helpful.
PETER
I remember reading - around the time that the announcement for the exam was made - that NYC Transit was looking to hire 350 operators a year "for the next few years."
Whether "this will lead to a job within the next few months" will depend upon a few factors: 1. how many people ahead of you REALLY WANT the job (note: I do); 2. how many of those people are able to pass the drug test, the medical exam, and the background check; and 3. whether what I recall reading is in fact an accurate reflection of NYC Transit's desires.
I will be in Brooklyn for the survey on Saturday. Good luck to you (and to any other SubTalk readers that took the exam and are hopeful of gaining employment).
Is This new bridge arrangement, supposed to take effect in July 2001, really going to happen? From what I had heard, the B'way side of Manny B was going to be closed until 2003. If they re-opened it, that would be cool. But really, are they going to do this? If so, What about the N train. Will it become the Broadway express again? How about this Brighton Q local service. Will it be express in manhattan? There are so many weird parts of this plan, that I can't believe that it is true.
The Brighton would have 2 Q trains (express and local), both running via the bridge. The N would remain as it is today. A new line, the W, would replace the B in Brooklyn and operate via the bridge to Queensboro Plaza, extending to Astoria rush hours.
I am on the list for Train Operator, and just got a letter telling me to report to the TA Learning Center(formerly P.S. 248), for the Train Operator Selection Survey (TOSS)next week. Any clue what this is going to be?
Its a psych test to evaluate how your attendance will be. A typical question might be, " If you 7 year old wakes up sick and cannot go to school and your wife is at work would you:
a)Call work and try and get the day off
b)Try to get your wife to come home
c)Take your son immediatly to the doctor and worry about work later
d)Ask a relative to watch him
There looking for d) or B) Answer the questions to make them think that you will show up for work even if there is a nucluar war.
I'm pretty sure that this has been done to death, with everyone still speculating on what will be the the finished product concerning the 63rd St. connector (oh, well. I guess one more ain't gonna hurt).
What follows is a list of proposed summary of terminals and routes for Subdivision B when the connector opens in late August of 2001.
E - Jamaica Center or 179th Street, Jamaica and World Trade Center all times. Express in Queens, except nights. Late nights, local in Queens. Selected trips will operate to 179 St. during rush hours. The E will operate via Queens Blvd Exp, 53rd St. Tunnel, and 8th Av. Local.
F - 179th Street, Jamaica and Coney Island, Brooklyn all times. Express in Queens, except late nights. Late nights, local in Queens. The F will operate via Hillside Local, Queens Blvd Exp, 63rd St. Tunnel, 6th Av. Local, and Culver.
G - Court Square, Queens and Smith-9th Street, Brooklyn all times. The G will operate via Crosstown Local.
R - Continental Avenue, Queens, and 95th Street, Bay Ridge all times except nights. The R will operate via Queens Blvd Local, 60th St. Tunnel, Broadway and 4th Av. Local. Late nights, shuttle, 95th St.-36th St.
V - Continental Avenue, Queens, and 2nd Avenue/Houston Street, Manhattan, weekdays, 6am - midnight. The V will operate via Queens Blvd Local, 53rd St. Tunnel, and 6th Av. Local.
These service changes are scheduled to start in the summer of 2001.
B - Bedford Pk. Blvd, Bronx or 145 Street, Manhattan and 34th Street/6th Avenue weekdays. The B will operate via the Concourse Local, Central Pk. West Local, and 6th Av.
D - 205th Street, Bronx and 34th Street/6th Avenue all times. Rush hours, will operate Concourse Exp. in Bronx, peak direction. All other times, via Concourse Local, Central Pk. West Exp. and 6th Av.
Q - 57th Street/7th Avenue, Manhattan and Coney Island, Brooklyn all times. The Q will operate via the Broadway Exp. and the Brighton Local.
Q - 57th Street/7th Avenue, Manhattan and Brighton Beach, Brooklyn weekdays, 6am - 10pm. This Q service will be designated by a diamond and will operate via Broadway Exp. and Brighton Exp.
W - Ditmars Blvd, Astoria and Coney Island, Brooklyn all times except nights. The W will operate 31st St. Exp. (peak direction), Broadway Exp, 4th Av. Exp. and West End Local. Late nights, West End Shuttle.
S - Shuttle
Broadway-Lafayette St. and Grand Street, Manhattan all times.
S - Shuttle (temp until 63rd St connector opens)
21st Street, Queensbridge, and Broadway-Lafayette Street, Manhattan all times. This shuttle will operate via the 6th Av. Local.
Now that was a mouthful!
Wouldn't it make sense to combine those two 6th shuttles into one?
Also, though I'm happy at the apparent return (via selected E service) of the Hillside Ave express, I don't think that's really the best way to do it. I sort of feel that a letter should always have the same terminals (other than being cut back on evenings and weekends.) What I'd rather see is the V extended to 179th St, at least during rush hours, so the F could run express to 179th.
:-) Andrew
Yes I would think it makes sense to just combine those 2 shuttles during the times before the 63rd connection fully opens, but something tells me it has something to do with the location of the crossover in the vincinity of BWay/Lafayette. I am wondering why a crossover wasn't built right before Grand before (or after) the Chrystie connection opened.
So some rush hour (E)s will make its way to 179th, similar to the (A) scenario in the Rockaways. The difference is, the Rockaways don't have to deal with many except those who live there (correct me if I'm wrong). In Jamaica, a major transportation hub, you might have people coming from Long Island (via LIRR & buses etc.) and therefore more people. I think more people will be confused by this (E) scenario than the idea of having 2 (Q)s in Brooklyn since the 2 (Q)s don't branch off. Besides, we know there will be people who don't listen to announcements or read the signs (or downed gates, like that recent LIRR tragedy).
Residents aren't a problem: they'll get used to the two versions of the E.
The A has it worse than residents: it has tourists trying to get to the airport.
I'd expect to see the W run local on the Astoria line when the final plan comes out. Running them express wouldn't benefit anyone and those people who use the local stops will raise hell with their very powerful city councilman, Peter Vallone.
You forgot the N
I didn't forget the N, Bob. No major service changes were proposed for the N, so I would assume that N service will probably not change at all.
That will Make Slow Beach Fred very happy.
The N, R, and W will all have to merge onto the same track at 57/7 and share that track into Queens. Will there be enough capacity?
I don't think it will be too much of a problem, David. The way I see it, if they can run the B, D, and Q lines on the same track along 6th Avenue and the Manhattan Bridge without too much trouble, they should be able to run the N, R, and W lines the same way.
They ran the N/R and B lines along 60th St to Queens with no problems from 86-88. It can handle the traffic.
During the mid 60's pre Chrystie the Broadway Line had 3 locals (QB QT RR) and 3 expresses (N Q T) running on a given day. I don't recall any major meltdowns back then.
Jose
Actually 2 Locals and 3 exp. The QB and QT did not run local at the same time.
Right! In addition you had at least 2 crossovers. One was the T south of 57th from the local to express tracks (southbound) and the other was the QB south of Prince from local to the express tracks (also southbound) heading to the MB. The reverse was true for northbound trains.
Jose
Just how long will the North side of the Manhattan Bridge be out of action?
That I could not answer, JD. The proposal does not state how long the north side of the Manhattan Bridge will be closed, although I have heard it suggested that it will be closed at least through 2004.
I find that hard to believe given how long it will take the south-side to complete. And the north-side has always been the more heavily used side (according to this site).
The last time the north side was closed, it was for 2.5 years. I believe 3 years is the maximum. The north side is more in need to be opened, because it's closure is much more of a disruption to the entire system.
You say the V would operate thru the 53rd St. tunnel. Your must mean the 63rd St. tunnel. But one question: between midnite & 6 AM and all day Sat/Sun, what would take its' place? If you reroute the F, you would confuse people as to different ways it operates to/from Manhattan, unless you have circles & diamonds and the public has to be educated as to the difference between them.
No, Bill, I meant 53rd St. But that's a good question. Apparently, when the V is not running, the only service through the 53rd Street Tunnel will be the E during late nights and weekends. The proposal doesn't say that the F will operate along 53rd St. when the V is not running.
Keep in mind that these are just proposals; nothing is set in stone as of yet.
I would assume that the TA will hand out pamphlets explaining these service changes in detail before they go into effect, and will have plenty of passenger controllers on the affected platforms to help quell confusion for the first few weeks.
Queens has a very high immigrant (legal and/or illegal) population. Those immigrants may not necessarily be able to read the pamplets or speak english. Their faces show sheer confusion when there's a G.O. It's up to those immigrants themselves to try and develop the basic english skills needed for daily society if they want to live a normal satisfactory life.
As a Bumper Sticker that I saw on a car in LA a few years ago said Welcome to American Now Learn English.
We had a sticker on the counter at a video rental store that I worked at a few years ago that said "English Spoken Here" :)
Shawn.
Every borough has a high immigrant population. It may take some time but they'll figure out which train to take.
I misread the route of the F, so the V would go via 53rd St. But I feel that the V should have service on the weekends. We'll know when the pick books come out.
There should be no weekend service on the V. This will prevent me from getting weekends off or part of them!
As I stated in previous posts. Just run the Q thru 63rd, via Express, and make the F Local Then there will be no need for the V or Confusion on Circle or Diamond. So the people at 57/6 walk 1 block to 57/7. It will not kill them.
No, they said the "V" would go by 53rd Street, not 63rd Street. I think this will be an awkward arrangement, too. There's going to be a lot of shuffling around by "F" riders who suddenly can't get to 53rd Street without a change of trains. I would run the "V" by 63rd Street and leave the "F" alone.
wayne
I was headed for 86th street in Bay Ridge (for the S79)from 5av/42nd street. I got off the 7 and just made a Brooklyn bound B.
It was announced several times that due to a G.O., the Brooklyn bound B will be running on the N. We ran express to 36th, but switched to the local track right before 36th. Then we ran local all the way to 59th. The conductor was telling people who wanted the R that it was only running a shuttle, and you had to cross over and get the shuttle train on the northbound express track. One train after another rolled on through 59th on the S/B local track, a B, and an OOS R32. It was clear there were delays having three lines running on one track.
I stayed waiting for the R in it's normal spot. When the 2nd B came, the conductor told more people that the R was running a shuttle, and to cross over to the Manhattan bound express track. But I stayed put, after seeing an Manhattan bound R running on the regular local track.
After about 10 minutes the R showed up, on it's regular S/B track.
People from the other side ran over the crossover to catch it.
How could two conductors make such a big mistake? I was aware that R shuttles were running nights, but this was around 10:30am.
Got off at 86th street, and just made the S79 to the mall, which was a very slow ride.
It was cold, brisk day, a great day to ride the Staten Island Railway.
After being at the S.I. Mall for a little while, I took an S59 to Eltingville. Got a Tottenville bound train. The trip went smoothly until after Hugenot, when we slowed to a crawl, then stopped several times. There were dispatchers on scene, and then we switched tracks.
We arrived at Princes Bay on the St.George bound track, and then after, you could see lots of work being done on the S/B track. There were gravel trucks and backhoes, but they were on rails, like they were modified to run on tracks or something. They were digging a trench, for something. Perhaps this is the signal system upgrade?
Arrived at Tottenville. It was very cold and windy, and very quiet. It feels like the middle of nowhere. And over there, the N.J. radio stations come in quite clear, especially Magic 98.3 and 94.3 The Point (94.3 has a pretty good signal all over the south shore). Good stations.
Going back was faster, and I notice that the power poles (are they used for SIRT or ConEd feeders?) are the same ones in the picture of a SIRT train on the December page in subways 2000 calander. We did slow around the switch around Pleasant Plains, and saw what looked like a temporary hut, next to the N/B track. Is this where the switches are controlled? Since dispatchers were on scene at all switches in the vicinity, I guess they are all manual.
Very scenic ride, and a nice view from the hill around Great Kills of the ocean, and Sandy Hook.
Passed the Clifton shops, which are right by the water. That's where I guess the SIRT R44 OH cars get their salty ocean smell.
All in all, a nice day to be on Staten Island.
They are indeed all manual switches. The reasons the Jersey radio stations come in so clear is the clear line-of-sight you have acrss the water to the transmitters.
Much of the SIR's equipment is modified with 'Hy-Rail' equipment.
It's been a while since I rode, but since all the track has been renewed within the last 5 years, they were probably doing work on the signal system.
Funny thing about some of the hy-rail dump trucks, the beds can rotate 90 degrees left or right, and this dump sideways.
-Hank
Was this fake freeway built when the LIRR was elevated in the Rockaways?
Yes. As a matter of fact, it used to be the private right of way for the LIRR before the el was built.
It always did surprise me that this is called a 'Freeway'. There's a light at virtually every corner. Back in the thirties, Moses wanted to build a limited-access parkway the length of the peninsula all the way from the Gil Hodges Bridge to the projected Atlantic Beach Bridge and Nassau Expressway- there's a freeway-style trumpet interchange at that point. The concept of a 'freeway' along what was then the LIRR ROW may have been remnants of his plan.
The divided Shore Front Parkway along the oceanfront from the Beach 70s through 100s was also projected to be part of this highway. After the proposal was defeated in the sixties, all those high-rise co-ops were built. Up until the seventies, there were wooden 'parkway poles' of 1930s/40s vintage along the Parkway and Freeway, as well as on the Riis Park roadways. There's still a stone-arch bridge at an 'interchange' at the east end of the park that very strongly resembles those seen on Long Island parkways.
Moses clearly lost more battles after the war than before, such as the Cross-Brooklyn Expressway and two Manhattan crosstown expressways that were supposed to connect East River bridges with Hudson River tunnels. Back when the limited-access Shore Front Parkway was proposed, the Rockaways was still a summer colony for the middle-class without the empty stretches and projects we see in Arverne today. Hence, much more political clout.
There are many Parkways that are actually residential and/or commercial streets- Utopia, Little Neck, Douglaston, Marathon, Manhattan College, Rockaway, Bay. In California, the term Expressway is often applied to divided highways with limited signalled intersections, driveways to shopping centers, and higher speed limits- much like our Sunrise Highway, Veterans Highway, Pelham Parkway or U.S. 22. A freeway is always considered limited access- except the Rockaway 'Freeway'.
Just from my experience, the lights on the "Freeway" are timed so that it almost functions as a limited access highway, as opposed to the parallel Beach Channel Drive, where I seem to get a red light at every intersection. Perhaps it was called "Freeway" simply because it wasn't a "Turnpike" (toll road)? I'll have to dig out my old maps to see how long it's been there and what other options there were to get to Rockaway.
Yes, and notice how the 'Rockaway Freeway' appears to be one of the last places in the city to have those red/green traffic signals on a post. I think the city has universally gone to red/yellow/green hanging lights since the 1980s' (maybe Kevin can confirm this).
BMTman
There are some yellowless signals lingering around Liberty Ave/Lefferts Blvd way; at least there were the last time I was over there (this past summer, I think).
Still there in November.
-Hank
I think it was the 60s.
It's not that the standard at the time involved posts vs. masts, but I believe that there are no masts because they wouldn't fit! Most of the lights are attached to the el.
There are two ANCIENT traffic light holders, one on the 86th St Transverse in The Park and another on 46th and Park.
For those of you who are unaware, the Rockaway Freeway has no yellows on nearly all of its traffic lights. Simultaneous red-green replaces the function of yellow.
In California, the term Expressway is often applied to divided highways with limited signalled intersections, driveways to shopping centers, and higher speed limits- much like our Sunrise Highway, Veterans Highway, Pelham Parkway or U.S. 22.
But note that the Sunrise Highway now is fully limited-access through most of Suffolk County. Heading east, the last traffic light is by Babylon Town Hall, five miles or thereabouts past the Nassau line (and right by the LIRR Central Branch overpass). You then have a blessedly light-free stretch of 40 miles or so until a couple of miles past the Shinnecock Canal bridge. Service (a.k.a. frontage) roads handle the countless strip malls and shopping plazas along the way.
I've been hearing on this board that the first set of R62A cars of the #6 line are supposed to be on the #7 line starting December right now. Because some R142A are supposed to come on delivery to the #6 line now. I already know why they can run R142/142A on the #7 line because they are all 10 car trains & the #7 line needs single trains like the R62A. Oh well I just want to see the R142/142A tested on the #7 line, & on the 1/9 lines.
Our boys are just fine.. thank you.
Tho I'm sure there's a scrapyard
somewhere hungry for Canadian Steel..
Amtrak has just unveiled its "Guest Rewards Program," similar to airline frequent flyer programs. Here's a link to the Web site. It appears to be only for northeast corridor riders. I'll be signing-up on-line so I can get credit for my upcoming AE trip!
A correction: The AMTRAK Guest Rewards Program is available on all AMTRAK routes. But if you travel in first class on the NEC (Acela Express or Metroliner) you get a bonus. According to their Web site, they have an impressive set of partners, though specific details on how this works is in the membership kit -- which will be mailed after you sign-up.
Todd, how do you sign up.? Yes I know the nearest Amtrack is 2500 miles from Hawaii, but I am only going to be here another three weeks, and then join you guys in the cold East Coast. Outside of Dullas Airport Area, and I don t want to drive from DC to NYC so will use the train
Bob you can sign-up on the Web site.
Will someone please post the exact location of this "Transit Tech High School"?
Reference has been made several times of taking the J to Norwood Ave. I thought that Norwood only ran from Jamaica Ave to Atlantic Ave, and I have no recollection of a school. I recall it as being an entirely residential street! Is this school south of Atlantic Ave?
Yes it is. It is about a block south of Atlantic and a block north of Liberty Avenues.
Train#1931Mike
Thanks Mike! Since Norwood ends at Atlantic, it must be on Milford St!
Yes it is. It is about a block south of Atlantic and a block north of Liberty Avenues.
Train#1931Mike
Thanks Mike! Since Norwood ends at Atlantic, it must be on Milford St!
Yes it is. It is about a block south of Atlantic and a block north of Liberty Avenues.
Train#1931Mike
Thanks Mike! Since Norwood ends at Atlantic, it must be on Milford St!
A group called 'Bela Fleck and the Flecktones' apprarently have an album being released called "Outbound". I saw an add for it in the Village Voice.
The cover has a sideview of 8013 with one door-half open and a ghost-like image of man stepping out of the car.
Has anyone else seen this?
BMTman
Courtesy: Yahoo! Music Online...
Looks similar to the ad campaign for "The taking of Pelham 123"
Thanks, (1) South Ferry (9).
I just wonder if any of their songs are related to rapid transit....:-)
BMTman
Just saw "Unbreakable" with Bruce Willis and Samuel L. Jackson. It's a highly cerebral story set in Philadelphia.
What's interesting, transit-wise, is that SEPTA shows up accurately, but the inter-city train service is called "EastRail" instead of Amtrak. Maybe that's because an EastRail train derailment is central to the plot - Willis' character is the sole survivor - and Amtrak would have had a PR problem.
"Maybe that's because an EastRail train derailment is central to the plot - Willis' character is the sole survivor - and Amtrak would have had a PR problem."
I just saw the movie last night -- loved it; trains and rail lines were a repeating image throughout the movie -- and I don't see why Amtrak would have had a PR problem. Without revealing too much, suffice it to say that the derailment in the movie wasn't in the least the fault of the fictional "EastRail".
I posted about this and according to Jersey Mike, so did some other people.
Mayor Street voted no at the DVRPC hearing on Metrorail, insisting that it include a subway or light rail line on the "City Branch Alignment" past the Art Museum, Zoo, and Parkside Ave. to 52nd St. I assume the City Branch is the rail tunnel under Pennsylvania Ave. 52nd and Parkside are adjacent to the Mann Music Center. I think this line would be great, especially since a lot of the infrastructure is already in place. The Fairmount area of Center City is really poorly served by rapid transit.
Good for the Mayor!
That would take a good rail line to the City Avenue area, too. What do you know about that corridor? I always thought it would be a good place for some kind of rail transit, but I'm not an expert on that part of town.
Michalovic
Yes, the art museum area and West Fairmount Park would be excellent places to run transit. I hope Street can make it happen, although if he handles it like he's been handling the stadiums, I doubt it.
The only problem with this idea is it would require a new river crossing for a minimal level of service. Frankly, I'd like to see PATCO extended to these parts, possibly with some other branches going to different places in Philadelphia, but I doubt that will ever happen.
I had a feeling this would happen. $1.4 Billion for a 60-mile electrified line with train service every 15 minutes from Reading to Center City while there are huge parts of Philly without rail transit service that can and should have it. Street did the right thing. There was something screwy about the way the SVM was being planned from the beginning. Think about it: A train every fifteen minutes from Reading to Center City and back, while other Regional Rail lines have AT BEST a train every 30 minutes, even on the lines that don't leave the city. The new line is planned to have widely-spaced high platforms and brand new cars. Why won't SEPTA improve the other Regional Rail lines this way?
Last month I read that there will be a tour of Philly Trolleys or something like that, on the old Phil and Western Routes out of 69th St sometime next Month in January. Sponsored by the Delaware Valley Something. Sorry I just don t not remember which. It was in Railkroad Magazine. Does anyone have any infor about that?
Sounds like it would be by the Delaware Valley Association of Rail Passengers, although I haven't heard anything about it. Contact them at www.dvarp.org
If they are the ones in Wilmington, that would be it. Thanks
"Super Saturday Streetcar Special VIII" using Red Arrow PCC #2799 sponsored by Wilmington Chapter NRHS Jan 27. $30. Departs Elmwood carbarn 10 AM, return estimated 3 PM. Contact Wilmington Chapter c/o Steve Barry, 117 High Street, Newton, NJ 07860. Or email steve@daylightimages.com
(from Dec Railfan and Railroad).
P.S. This trip will be on city trolley lines using the Red Arrow PCC.
Why are there Three Tracks on the MBTA Orange line from Wellington to Community College. But only to Tracks along the rest of the line. This seems like an awfuly short distance to have an express track. Also why is the seconed platform at Community College closed.
If the LIRR extenstion to GCT were to be built, how would this impact trains that terminate at points such as LIC, Hunters Point, or Flatbush. Is there a chance that enouch trains terminating there may be rerouted to GCT that either the Flatbush-Jamaica or LIC-Jamaica line may not be necessary for LIRR use and converted to subway?
Bad idea. All of the following reasons have been aired in previous threads. Just to remind you:
Service to one location is no substitute for service to another unless they are within walking distance. GCT is not within walking distance of either of the other locations.
Subways are no substitute for commuter trains. They serve different needs in different ways.
An Atlantic Avenue subway line would be redundant. There is already subway service parallel to the LIRR Atlantic Branch.
There is no demand for subways along the Montauk Branch. If the people living near the Montauk Branch don't like LIRR traffic, just imagine their response to subway trains on the route.
Hello everyone: I'm a long time reader, first time poster, and I've got an oddball question.
A few years back, i went on the tour of the abandoned city hall station, and after the 'offical' tour was done, the guides asked if anyone wanted to see 'the wine cellar'...
...curious, about 15 people took them up on the offer, and were lead behind a door to a maintance area (the door was off a hallway heading towards the exit near pace U.), down some stairs, and around an area that at some point was a wine cellar (there was a company name on the wall, but i forget what it was). Beyond this area, we went up a ladder and into what seemed to be a short subway tunnel (completely with what looked to be a track buried in the dirt) that i recall someone saying was pretty much under the base of the bridge. this area lead to a cliff that looked down on the J-M-Z platform @ brooklyn bridge.
My question, of course, is does anyone have any information on this unusual, abandoned underground space, or know of any websites i might be able to find such info? (I've looked around a bit and have thus far come up short...)
Thanks in advance.
-Joe
I can't answer your question, but let me just say "Welcome Aboard" and I hope to see you become a regular. BTW I love your handle.
Thanks - I'll probably end up posting a bit now - as for the handle, "can you smell what the joe's got cooking?" heh!
I was on that tour. It was very interesting. I imagine that the entrance we went through has been sealed up by now.
Peace,
ANDEE
why do you think they'd seal up the entrance? it seemed to be a pretty odd, secure spot. (then again...)
-Joe
Did you get any pictures?
I could use them for...
www.forgotten-ny.com
I did not have a camera. But, the enviroment for taking pictures wasn't too good.
Peace,
ANDEE
I got a couple before my batteries went dead on my camera.
I was actually just going to email you this week and see if you could use them. I've got quite a few photos, the majority of which are black and white, and of damn good quality considering there was next to zero light down there. My brother might have a few color shots as well (he took the tour perhaps 6 months before I did...). I can probably email you a sampling of them by the weekend.
This must have been from the plan to connect the tracks at Chambers to the Brooklyn Bridge el tracks.
<<>>
It may have been, though from where the cliff leaves off to the J-M-Z below, it would hae been quite a steep grade to climb (I'm a bad estimator of height, but it had to be a 50 to 100ft. drop off). My guess was that perhaps the brooklyn bridge el tracks had an 'underground' terminal, like that of the tracks which went over the 59th street bridge.
In any case, here's a few more details of this odd tunnel: an old steel set of steps connected it to the 'wine cellar' - under those steps I noticed (and have a photo of, actually) an odd message written on the wall that stated 'commit no nuisence here' . (it wasn't written in graffiti style letters, and there was no graffiti in this tunnel). Towards one end was what seemed like a loading dock - with another set of steps up to it. by climbing the steps and ducking down along a truely low ceiling (3, perhaps 4 feet at some spots), you'd reach the cliff overlooking the J-M-Z stop.
Short of the 'loading dock', 2 tunnels meet - one comes in on a curve, and the other (which has the steps in from the wine cellar) is straight. In the dirt where there 2 tunnels met, you could clearly see some type of rail switch track. The truely puzzling part is that perhaps 10, 20 feet from this switch, the track runs directly into the 'loading dock' (!), pointing in the direction of the cliff and J-M-Z station.
And that is pretty much all I know about this place. if you all want I can throw together a webpage (afterall, that is my day job)with some photos (which I hope can find a more permenant home on forgotten-ny.com - nudge nudge =) ).
-Joe
The Brooklyn Bridge el tracks terminated at Park Row, almost adjacent to City Hall. The terminus was elevated as well. When the Centre St. line was first planned, it included a loop in which trains from the Williamsburg Bridge would loop back to Brooklyn via the Brooklyn Bridge while trains off the Manhattan Bridge would loop back via the Montague St. tunnel. The latter was eventually completed, and this loop was used mainly by rush hour trains up until the Chrystie St. connection opened. Provision was made for the former at Chambers St., where the westernmost tracks ramp up through the station. I saw this last fall for the first time. The connection to the Brooklyn Bridge was never built, possibly due to concerns that the bridge would not be able to handle steel subway trains. When the Nassau Loop opened in 1931, the two outer tracks at Chambers St. were tied into it, taking advantage of the higher proximity of the westernmost track which emerges on the upper level at Fulton St.
Would it ever have been possible for the tracks inside tracks to turn west and connect to the lower level of the Broadway line heading north? Don't ask for what, just yet. I'm still kicking this brainstorm around. Or maybe to the turnouts from the IND local just south of Canal? Someone else think , My head hurts.
avid
I've got no clue... what's the theory?
-Joe
The theory, and only a theory was to provide a loop south of the BMT City Hall station, N/R, connecting to the center tracks of the BMT south of Chambers Street J/M/Z. With the eventual hope of a Second ave or 6th ave connection.
Really pushing the Outter Limits, Possible use in the far future by down sized LIRR cars (75ft) to this loop by lower level 63rd tunnel, down B'way and up 6th Ave. In and out , one stop only in Manhattan, Lower Level, City Hall ALL-OFF. CHAMBERS STREET on-load for the trip to L.I. next stop Jamaica!
avid
Hmmm... there goes the 'bridge terminal theory'. . Thanks for all the info though. Is that ramp @ chambers street visible from or in the platform (I don't have occasion to take the J-M-Z much)? perhaps they had begun the construction up to the bridge, changed plans? The section is rather short...
-Joe
This sounds like a very interesting place. Can you see the top of the cliff from the platform on the J-M-Z?
Oddly, I've never gone down to the platform to take a look. I'd imagine you could if you had a strong enough flashlight. Has anyone else tried? (it's at the south end of the platform, for those who've never been there)
-Joe
there was a company name on the wall, but i forget what it was
The paint on the wall over the doorway reads:
CHAMPAGNE
(heraldic logo)
BOLROGER & CO.
The city used to rent these spaces out. Some others contain a bunch of tools used when building the bridge, construction helmets, and
wagon wheels.
I realized I had Paint Shop Pro on the CD rom that came with one of the HTML books I got, so now I can make my own bullets to add to those on this site. (Don't know why they came out so grainy)
Unused Letters ("T" is there because this is how it appears on signs)
More reroutes
Gold letters (suggested color for Broadway)
Diamond Q (R-68A 5001-8 style)
Now I can complete my name in bullets!
Cool!
And here are 4 more I just added:
(gray K for proposed Canarsie Skip-stop)
I just realized that the Wingdings font has this right facing plane (capital Q), and all I had to do was rotate the image, and voila!
Very nice.
I think the TA should revive that symbol for use on one of the new lines coming out of the two upcoming changes. Oh, it wouldn't go anywhere near JFK, but it's a nice change from all those letters, and it's already on the roll signs.
Cool. It's perfect.
You're not the only one with a JFK Express GIF.
Save them as GIF instead of JPEG
Those images are already in GIF format. Should I say, keep reading the book? Of course it is possible to make GIF bullets without the grain. Actually I find it harder to make images grainy as Eric B has them than making them solid!
answer these questions, please.
1. During I think it was 1999 or 1998, a friend of mine told me that he saw an R-142 pass by 149th st-grand concourse. So is this true, that the 142's were running during 1999?
2. Are there any shows about the NYC subway on TV?
3. Why is it that the 'TA has to have repairs all over the subway?
see ya l8ter
-Sephiroth.
1. During I think it was 1999 or 1998, a friend of mine told me that he saw an R-142 pass by 149th st-grand concourse. So is this true, that the 142's were running during 1999?
Considering that they weren't delivered to the TA until December 1999 (and were tested on the Dyre Avenue line for some months before being run anywhere else), what do you think?
3. Why is it that the 'TA has to have repairs all over the subway?
Would you really prefer them to leave things broken?
Recommendation: engage brain before applying fingers to keyboard.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Your friend might have seen an R-110, which resembles an R-142. (See this website for pictures of both models.) Otherwise, he has his dates mixed up.
I believe the R110A was confined to the yard at that time, and it still is, IIRC. It's undergoing a massive overhaul so it can run with R142 cars, like the R11's did in the mid 1960's.
The R11's ran with R142's in the 1960's? Impressive, I must say.
3. Why is it that the 'TA has to have repairs all over the subway?
Because that is where the equipment is located. It is in the nature of things to wear out. Nothing that is built is permanent unless maintained -- and sometimes not even then. Is there some place else that you would rather they did the repairs?
1. Yes, they were delivered in late 1999....he may have seen the test train.
2. Transit Transit is on WNYE at 3:30 PM Saturdays, a new show each month. There have been several documentaries on A&E and the Learning Channel about the subway system.
3. Age. Something is always in need of repair. The system also uses highly mechanical, labor intensive technology which requires constant maintenance, which the system learned the hard way by deffering it throughout the 1960's and 70's.
so i see.
forget about question 3.
The Onion, the fake newspaper, has an article 98 Percent Of U.S. Commuters Favor Public Transportation For Others which is pretty funny. While it is totally made up, it unfortunately is probably the real mindset of the country. Ya'll think so?
No, I wish more people would drive to work so my train would be less crowded. More people should take public transporation into Manhattan on Saturday nights, though, so I can find a parking space more easily.
:)
>>>No, I wish more people would drive to work so my train would be less crowded.<<<
No, it wouldn't. The reduced passenger load would result not in more room, but in less trains. In the interest of cost-savings, net-net you would see no gain in comfort and a loss in frequency!
(Even August Belmont said that you can't make money unless the trains are packed at rush-hour. Same concept now, although actually "making money" is no longer an option.)
This is the logic behind having the TBTA tolls subsidize the subways. My economics professor, Alfred Kahn, supported this 30 years ago.
Outside of NYC, absolutely.
I tried to figure this one out on my own and I'm just stumped. I even checked the Subway Film, Docs and TV site, however the movie in question is not listed. The movie I'm talking about is called "FRESH".It came out sometime in the mid 1990's. For the most part it appears to take place in Brooklyn, NY. In the movie there are two subway scenes shot at the same spot(a daytime and nightime shot). Before I continue I must state that I'm aware of Hollywoods tendency to make people, places and things appear different from what they actually are. The daytime scene shows a train of R40Ms/R42s rounding a lower level elevated turn spliting off from a pair of higher level elevated tracks. At first I thought hey that's an M train leaving Broadway headed for Metropolitan Ave. But after checking some pictures of the Broadway/Myrtle Ave intersection, the M train tracks split off on the same level from the J and Z train tracks. After racking my brain, I came up with one possibility. This scene may have been shot at the spot where Far Rockaway and Rockaway Park A trains split off from Liberty Ave in Queens and Hollywood simply reversed it.
If anyone out there has this movie, find that scene(it's about midway in the movie), look at it very carefully and tell me what you think.
Perhaps it's the (M) heading towards Myrtle from Metropolitan, as opposed to heading towards Metropolitan? There is a lower level elevated turn splitting from a pair of higher-elevated tracks between Myrtle Ave & Central Ave stations on the (M).
Sounds to me like the turnoff the "F" makes from underneath the "D" at West 8th St. Brooklyn....
You might be right... I've never seen the movie so I don't know for sure myself.
Is that the movie with that little kid and Samuel L. Jackson?
If so what part of Brooklyn was that supposed to be taking place?
Great actor that child and if it's the movie I'm thinking about, great innercity story. Sorry about your question, I don't know.
Are there fare discounts for NYC residents on welfare? I was reading the article in the Monday times about the lives of the low-income residents of NYC, and realized that it didn't once mention the role of transit in the lives of these people. My point is, these people have to get to work, go to school, and shop. Are these people helped in any way by fare discounts on the MTA? I know there are fare discounts for the elderly and the disabled, but what about general low-income residents? If there is not such a system arranged now, I think one should be implemented immediately. Free metrocards to all members of low-income families would prove extremely valuable for them. They would be more able to find work in different parts of the city, therefore increasing the job market that they can look for work in. They would also be able to take mass transit to shop in lower priced discount stores that might not be available where they live. Is there such a program? If there already is, I apologize for ranting, but if not, there should be!!
Hey buddy, if you are willing to pay for the Metrocards for these people, feel free to go to your local subway station, purchase whatever quantity you'd like, and start handing them out.
YES
i think that the disabled low income & welfare reciepents all should recieve discounts & or half fare on the entire transportation system!
this includes senior citizens especially those on limited fixed incomes. count me in as being all for this thank you .
If you want to do that, then you need to set an across-the-board income-based fare. That's not going to happen, as it's totally impractical. It stops at diabled/elderly regardless of income, and should stay that way.
-Hank
How is that totally impractical? There are a lot of things that are already based on income, there's no reason that Metrocards can't be distributed as a workfare benefit. It makes much more sense than giving a reduced fare metrocard to a Park Avenue millionaire just because he/she has passed a magic age.
There are a lot of things that are already based on income, there's no reason that Metrocards can't be distributed as a workfare benefit. It makes much more sense than giving a reduced fare metrocard to a Park Avenue millionaire just because he/she has passed a magic age.
Federal rules require NYCT to give the Park Avenue millionaire a reduced fare MC.
And that's every reason why I'm a socialist.
lets not go there.. (no, im not a socialist, im a capitalist pig)
lets not go there.. (no, im not a socialist, im a capitalist pig)
I thought I'm the capitalist pig here. You're the capitalist moose.
a pig VS a moose !! it used to be rocket j squirrel & bullwinkle the moose vs boris & natasa!!
good one.. i like that.. think ill use that term to describe myself from now on.
Ay, Lefty, If you are a "capitalist pig" and John is a socialist, why don't you two swap handles?
Because then we'll chage you an extra $3.50/ride because you can afford it.
-Hank
No.
The money would come out of their welfare check. If they need to get to workfare assignments, they'll use it, if they don't, they don't deserve the money.
well who said it is fair living in the usa these days... look at florida for example !!
look at florida for example !!
You mean America's Whang, right?
whatever .....
You don't say if you're familiar with the NYC fare structure (and since you're posting from a .ca address, I'll assume you aren't).
There is a flat fare which starts at $1.50 and includes a free transfer, so you can get just about anywhere within NYC for that price. There is a discount for purchases of $15 and up which brings the per-ride price down to $1.36.
There are also unlimited-ride time-based cards, starting at $4 for one day (a win if you're making more than 2 trips, such as your shopping example). The 7-day card is $17, and the 30-day card is $63.
All pricing above from CitySearch.com.
assumption granted, but im from the bronx and i know the fare structure, and know that there is reduced fare for seniors and disabled people (and students).. it seems that the case is that there is no reduced fare for lower-income residents of NY.. that should be changed.. if not FREE fare, then reduced fare..
No, there shouldn't. Unless you want to base the fare totally on need, in which case users with higher incomes (such as you) pay more to FURTHER subsidize the rides of others.
-Hank
Sounds fair to me. The more you make, the more responsibility you have to take care of your fellow man.
[Sounds fair to me. The more you make, the more responsibility you have to take care of your fellow man. ]
So I take that you hardly make anything and are just waiting for someone to take care of you. Let us know what major charities you support or perhaps you buy the Metrocards for the welfare people in your building.
Arti
I'm not rich and I don't want anyone helping me with their handout. I plan on being very successful and when I'm rolling in the dough, I'm going to keep the money I earned for myself. Let everyone else earn their money the same way as me.
>>> I plan on being very successful and when I'm rolling in the dough, I'm going to keep the money I earned for myself. Let everyone else earn their money the same way as me. <<<
Another compassionate conservative (Calcutta style) heard from.
Tom
i support free montly transcards for all disabled senior citizens welfare reciepents workfare workers doing forced workfare slavery etc..
this is in all 50 states it is only right to do the right thing in this. i dont care what personal attacks i will take from standing firm & strong on this. & especially in atlanta !!
Forced workfare slavery?
Can't they stay home and not work if they don't feel like getting paid?
I'm not a conservative, I'm a moderate. I went back and read my post and it did sound a little too conservative. I should have added that I just don't want the gov't telling me where my money should go. I would give plenty of money to charities for the disfortunate, I give some now, but it would be my choice where the money goes and not anyone else's.
The more you make, the more responsibility you have to take care of your fellow man.
That's one of the justifications for higher taxes on people with higher incomes. In addition to seeing huge sums of money going to support the government in the lifestyle to which it's become accustomed, they take a higher percentage of my income than they probably do of yours.
If wealthier people pay more in taxes and receive identical (or lesser) services (how many millionaires do you see in line at the public health clinics?), how about giving them a greater say in how the government is run? I bet you don't like that idea...
Going in the other direction, how about a flat tax rate across the board? Everybody pays the same percentage tax, and the government still gets more money from wealthier people.
-- greetings from the 39.6% tax bracket
[Going in the other direction, how about a flat tax rate across the board? ]
In some counties it works quite successfully without much public complaint.
Arti
oh yes i am familiar with the NYC fare structure ( not just because i am posting from the western united states etc )
But i will add this to the rest of the posts as well
I BOTH THINK & BELIEVE THAT WELFARE RECIEPENTS SHOULD RIDE FOR FREE!!
( excuse me )... this includes all rail & bus systems as well !!
Maybe you wouldn't mind moving to NYC and paying all the taxes and fare hikes to support your proposed plan. My paycheck is already shrinking enough all the time with everything else that is being done to support welfare/workfare. I'm not against supporting people who need this kind of help, but you can't help everyone in everyway. I have to pay $1.50 to ride and so should everyone else that's not protected by federally mandated provisions.
It can't be terribly hard to find work in such a big city. McDonalds hires people at a pretty rapid rate. Sometimes you'll have to settle for burger flipping until your dream job comes along.
I don't think the MTA will lend a helping hand to anyone other than those who Washington mandates that kind of assistance.
Shawn.
Sure, along with food stamps now I'll be able to subsidize someone's transportation more than I do now. Next you'll want free gasoline for those on welfare. How about free railfan videos for those on welfare, salaam?
Subsidizing transit for low-income people would have precedent of a sort. In some parts of the country, where there is little or no transit, state or county welfare authorities subsidize car purchases for low-income people in order to help them get to work. Obviously, car costs are a lot higher than transit costs, so there's more of a need for subsidies, but at least the idea is not wholly out of left field.
oh yes i am familiar with the NYC fare structure ( not just because i am posting from the western united states etc )
But i will add this to the rest of the posts as well
I BOTH THINK & BELIEVE THAT WELFARE RECIEPENTS SHOULD RIDE FOR FREE!!
( excuse me )... this includes all rail & bus systems as well !!
i do hope now that this makes my position crystal clear on this issue!!
and a follow up to this right on post ..
if you are going to FORCE welfare reciepents to do FORCED WORKFARE &
doing non janitor "SLAVE" non union protected forced labor the least
you could do for them is to give them Free Transcards & monthly unlimited ones at that!! This is only fair, but i know SOME of you out here hate being honest & fair & your posts prove this to be so!
thats what i said FORCED WORKFARE & SLAVE labor & i stand firm on that if you disagree fine with me but what i said stands & for the truth
especially with FORCED WORKFARE on subway stations , cars ,SLAVE labor & other sites ! the least thing could be done is to give them FREE MONTHLY TRANSCARDS & once again i stand firmly on the side of what is right & i wont back down on this!! that is what makes me honest above board straight & good & no i do not hate the welfare reciepents homeless & the disabled unlike some folks who do HATE them & speak for themselves only thank you !!
Welfare recipients are supposed to be reimbursed for any transportation costs related to required activities such as workfare jobs and job search activities. Everyone on Medicaid (and that includes everyone on public assistance as well as other poor disabled, elderly, and working people) get reimbursed for travel to medical treatment, which can add up if, for example, they are on dialysis and don't live near a dialysis facility. (Carfare reimbursement is essential upstate, where recipients have to use cars to get to mandatory meetings, programs, and activities.)
I agree that it would good idea to include MetroCards as a transitional benefit (like transitional Medicaid and day care) as part of a welfare-to-work program if not for all low-income New Yorkers. The problem will be finding the money to pay for it. Perhaps NY State can use some of its federal welfare block grant surplus.
An easy way to do it would be to provide TransitCheks, either deducted from one's benefits or, in case of workfare, paid by the employer. The latter is more justifiable, since these people will probably have to take transit to get to work, whereas those who don't work should be given the choice of what to do with their $63/mo.
Those who don't work, unless they are disabled, should get nothing except that necessary to keep them from starving.
Unless they want to work and the government can't find any for them.
>>> I know there are fare discounts for the elderly and the disabled, but what about general low-income residents? <<<
A great theoretical idea, but how would you determine who should receive the economic discounts? Would there be a whole new bureaucracy created to determine who qualified? Would an eighteen year old student with no independent income but being supported by his parents qualify? What about the situation where a woman (or man) who has no independent income lives with someone (either her husband or a friend) who has a high income?
It might be possible for a welfare agency to issue some kind of a voucher for a Metrocard in certain circumstances, but a general plan to scale the fares according to income is much too extreme.
Tom
They're already helped by the subsidies the system recieves that keep it affordable for everyone.
-Hank
Are there fare discounts for NYC residents on welfare? I was reading the article in the Monday times about the lives of the
low-income residents of NYC, and realized that it didn't once mention the role of transit in the lives of these people. My point is, these people have to get to work, go to school, and shop. Are these people helped in any way by fare discounts on the MTA? I know there are fare discounts for the elderly and the disabled, but what about general low-income residents? If there is not such a system arranged now, I think one should be implemented immediately. Free metrocards to all members of low-income families would prove extremely valuable for them. They would be more able to find work in different parts of the
city, therefore increasing the job market that they can look for work in. They would also be able to take mass transit to shop in lower priced discount stores that might not be available where they live. Is there such a program? If there already is, I apologize for ranting, but if not, there should be!!
What you propose is not without some merit, but don't expect to see it implemented anytime soon. The MTA offers discounts for the elderly and disabled not because it wants to out of the goodness of its corporate heart, but because federal regulations make it do so. It's safe to assume that there'd be no discounts without this compulsion. And since federal regulations do not require discounts for low-income people, none will be offered.
No. Freeloaders pay the same amount that working people do. My taxes are already paying for their food and shelter. Let' em pay the @#$!% whole fare.
I definately support that. Poorer people rely heavily on transit, and should get discounts (Reduced Fare MC, or even free Metrocards).
At least in NYC the service is decent, in the poor areas of LI it's alot harder and more expensive to get around, and the LIRR is very choosy who they give discounts to.
Two CP Rail locos ran down about at about 2:45AM with no R142's or anything else for that matter. It dosen't look like there will be any R142's delivered today. I'll keep a look out anyway. Is it possible that two seperate CP Rail runs come down on Monday mornings? Last weeks Monday delivery was at 5:30AM.
Shawn.
The Daily News has an article on the proposed W line.
Thanks Chuchubob,
avid
Finally. I saw this on NY1, both their own report and their "In the papers" segment. Meanwhile, Newsday is just getting around to last week's V line/63rd St. change.
Newsday used to be the #1 paper for subway information. I remember when Jim Dwyer introduced is "in the subway" articles twice a week.
I love the phrase "the plan will have to meet with public approval". Given that the city has no choice but to shut the north side tracks, what possible alternative plan could anyone propose which would be more favorable than the present one?
It's a done deed, even before the hearings even begin.
This stupid planning really makes me angry. The poor people of Chinatown will feel this at it's brunt. All these high paid planners have nothing to show for the people of Chinatown.
Lets think of all the things that should've happened, but didn't. Just think, if we started building a new tunnel to replace the Manny B tracks years ago, it would be done by now. If the 2nd ave subway was built, the Lex would be alot smoother. But growth is slowed by politics, NIMBY's, lawyers, and too much fiscal conservatism.
Every hear the phrase "just get it done"?
With today's engineering, it's as easy as it sounds, just stop everyone that gets in your way.
Witness the new subway systems in Hong Kong, Shanghai, as well as the beautiful new Pudong area which has sprung up faster than it took to build the 63rd street connector.
They feel (the politicians) that most of the people in Chinatown can t vote, so they ignore them. The Hong Kong Subway was built by private funds.
To be fair, the 63rd St. Connector could have been built in a shorter time only if subway service had been suspended on both the existing 63rd St line and the Queens Blvd. corridor. The 63rd St line (the existing line) had its roadbed rebuilt, and the Queens Blvd. corridor was widened even as subway service continued.
The only people who will suffer are those who own businesses right by the Chrystie/Grand St crossing. Nobody from Brooklyn will shop there anymore, because all their trains will be transferred over to Canal/Broadway.
Unfortunatley, there's nothing that can be done to prevent this.
That is the area I'm worried about. The TA and the state DOT could care less they are messing up hard working peoples' lives.
In a more social conscious country, the lower roadway would have been closed and the Chrystie tracks would be connected to the H tracks.
We'd ban private cars from the bridge upper roadway.
Personally I think everything that is non essential, such as people who drive to the city to shop or see tourist attraction (and I know a few), should be banned. Only commercial vehicles should be allowed into Manhattan. That would be all government services, delivery and shipping services, and anything vital to Manhattan functioning.
I see too many suburbanites in their SUV's driving in Manhattan, and these people should not be allowed because they are wasting space.
In Singapore, they have a similar practice, and it works quite well.
There are other cities in Europe, even South America, that limit the amount of vehicles allowed in the city. Unfortunately this is car-loving America, and until we change our modes of transport like everyone else, car drivers keep their rights at the expense of us transit riders (and small transit based businesses).
I nominate Gene Russianoff with the quote of the day: (from the article)
"It's already a challenge to navigate the subways," said Gene Russianoff of the Straphangers Campaign. "I am going to start packing a compass."
More changes unveiled,
ENI MEANEY MINI MO
Peace,
ANDEE
Notice that the article states that the BMT tracks over the MB will remain open only until the IND tracks re-open.
Does the author know something or is he assuming?
While the article states the reroutes will eliminate convienent transfers to the ACE at w4th, it neglects to mention that the Broadway line is much more convienent for x-fers to the 4/5/6 and 1/2/3/9 lines, and a transfer to the ACE at Times Sq. is still possible. All in all, the Broadwayn line is a better alternative for South Brooklyn BMT riders, if service on the bridge is present. It will also reduce crowding on the 4/5 lines coming to/from Brooklyn.
I had a chance to ride Baltimore's subway this weekend. I found it to be a really nice line, with clean and attractive stations, and I couldn't help but wondering if there were any plans to expand this one-line system. I have no idea what Baltimore needs or doesn't need, I'm just looking at it from a subway fan point of view. I did notice that I-695 has a rather large median as if it was built so that rail line could be added if it was ever necessary. I know some want to start Sunday service on the line, but that's all I know.
Michalovic
The only long-term expansion plan is a possible extension from Hopkins to North Avenue and Broadway in lower Northeast Baltimore. A large bus/LRV transfer station would be built and a LRV line to White Marsh.
This is VERY long term and like the Second Avenue Subeay may not be built in our liftimes.
Money is being sought to begin Sunday operation next year. This is in the MTA's Five Year plan.
On the LRT front, a large carhouse is under construction at Cromwell. This will augment North Avenue, currently very space constricted. It is expected that this new facility will open in late 2001 or early 2002. The initial construction can be viewed either from the platform and parking lots, or from the northbound lanes of I-97. This will give the Baltimore area 3 active carhouses.
Why doesn't the Baltimore subway currently operate on Sundays? Is there not enough ridership to warrant it?
Money.
With the 50% farebox recovery requirement (Courtesy of the Maryland General Assembly, now (2000) reduced to 40%), the cost of staffing requirements (Train Operators, Station Agents, Supervisors) exceeded by a wide margin the revenue received on a Sunday, particularly a non-sports Sunday. The MTA is asking for a operating budget that will allow Sunday operation in 2001.
Railpace, December, has 3 nice looking cars that look like they are ready to go back in service ;-)
Mr t
Hello,
I read the article today on Daily News' Web Site regarding the new W train, and a plan which might wreck havoc for commuters until they get used to the changes!! (Thanks to chuchubob for letting us know about it)
For those of you that haven't read the story, here is a summary of changes that might go into effect next summer, when Manhattan Bridge construction work finishes on the BMT tracks and moves to the IND tracks:
- B and D trains from the Bronx would now terminate at 34 Street/Herald Square.
- A new line, the W, would operate from Ditmars Blvd, Astoria, under Broadway, over the Bridge, and then via the B tracks to Coney Island.
- Eliminating confusion regarding where the Q would go as a result of the new 63rd Street Connector: There would be two Q trains, probably one local and one express, operating over the line currently served by the D. They would be sent over the bridge, under Broadway, and terminate at 57 Street/7 Avenue.
- A new S train would be created from Broadway/Lafayette Streets to Grand Street.
This is taken right out of the daily news article.
What do I personally think? Well, if Manhattan Bridge construction is moving to the IND tracks, then terminating B and D service at 34th Street is the only logical choice. (You wouldn't want to send them over the F lines, obviously.) In addition, this means that Q trains would have to run at all times, and be extended from Brighton Beach to Coney Island. Furthermore, they make no mention of whether or not the N train will run over the Bridge or through the Montague St Tunnel like it does now. Finally, they say a second shuttle train may be created from Broadway/Lafayette to 21 Street/Queensbridge. This will do well until the F train is rerouted, at which time the 63rd Street tunnel stops would all be taken care of.
Here's what I would do IF I WAS IN CHARGE of setting up routes:
- N trains would operate the same way they do now - operate local in Queens, local in Manhattan, run via the Montague Street tunnel, and run express on fourth avenue depending on the time of day.
- Have a Q train that would run all times, running express in Manhattan and local in Brooklyn, terminating at Coney Island. Q trains would run via the Manhattan Bridge and would stop at DeKalb Avenue.
- The second Q train would show a diamond Q sign, and would operate rush hours and middays, running express in Manhattan and Brooklyn. These trains would run over the bridge, would NOT stop at DeKalb Avenue, and would terminate at Brighton Beach.
- At 57 Street/7 Avenue, a good setup during weekdays would be to have the Q local to Coney Island start from one track and the Q express to Brighton Beach start from the other track (just like the #7 does).
- The new W would run express in Queens, peak direction only, and run express in Manhattan. W trains would run over the bridge, would NOT stop at DeKalb Avenue, and would operate express Pacific Street-36 Street.
Ideas or comments?
Hello again,
Before you start crowding on me, here's a correction to my section of the post called "what I would do IF I WAS IN CHARGE of setting up routes" - The Q local and Q express would both stop at DeKalb Avenue.
Just realized you can't send trains from the DeKalb Avenue bypass to the Brighton line.... sorry for that.
- Jose
It was once possible, before the mid-1950's track re-configuration. The Banker's specials which ran along the Brighton express usued to bypass Dekalb.
I'll repost my reroute ideas again for discussion:
B and D trains: both terminating at 34th St.
N: Ditmars Blvd. to Coney Island via Sea Beach, 4th Ave exp., bypass Dekalb (weekdays), across bridge, via Bway express to 34th St., switch to local, then thru 60th St. tunnel to Astoria, all times except nights, when it would make all local stops via tunnel.
Q. 57th/7th to Brighton Beach via Bway exp., bridge, and Brighton exp. Weekdays 6AM to 10PM
R. Identical to it's current route
T. Coney Island to 57th 7th via West End, 4th Ave. exp, bypass Dekalb (all times), via bridge and Bway exp, all times except nights.
W. From Coney Island to Queensboro Plaza via Brighton local, tunnel, Bway local, and 60th St. tube to Queens. Extended to Astoria rush hours.
M. Metropolitan Ave. to Chambers St. only. Weekdays.
The elimination of the M, (it's gonna happen some day) through Dekalb frees up additional capacity for more W and R trains, which unlike the M run in lower AND midtown Manhattan. With only 1/2 a bridge to work with, Broadway service should be givven 100% of the Dekalb Ave. corridor's capacity.
So if you do this, how do people from south Brooklyn then get to Nassau St line destinations?
-Hank
Given the close proximity of Nassau St. to the two IRT branches and the Broadway BMT, let them walk. They can change between most lines at Atlantic/Pacific or DeKalb to get them to the next closest station. Or, change from the Broadway to the Nassau at Canal St. (which assuming the bridge changed over can be done from either the 'express' or 'local' platforms...
IRT lines run paralell to Nassau St:
Broad St - 2 or 3 to Wall St. (1 block away)
Fulton St - 2/3/4/5 to Fulton (basically the same station)
Chambers St - 4/5 to Brooklyn Bridge
You could also change to the J/Z at Canal from the N/Q/T lines. The amount of people displaced by the lack of Nassau St. service is negligble, given the rather limited crowding I see on M trains in tha AM rush.
An ammendment to my proposal:
V: Continental Ave to Grand St. via Sixth Ave. local, 63rd. St and Queens Blvd. local, weekdays 6AM to 11PM. This would require a crossover being built just north of Grand St. No big deal.
If they start planning to build it now, they might have it done in 10 years if you're lucky :) I serious doubt they will start building all these provisions for something that is supposed to be "temporary." But then again temporary solutions seem to become permanent ones.
Shawn.
Question about your W proposal, Chris - if it terminates at Queensboro Plaza all times except rush hours, wouldn't it create tie-ups on the N line, which will then have to use only one track in the station during that time?
Now that I think about it, perhaps the idea would work if Queens-bound N trains got priority over Manhattan-bound N trains when using that single track- that way the R and W trains would not get tied up from behind.
What would probably happen is that W trains would terminate on the upper level of Queensboro Plaza then switch onto the middle track just south of Beebe Avenue. There they would reverse direction and arrive on the lower level of QBP and go into service.
Good idea - it might require a "non-revenue" punch at Queensboro Plaza, but that would work.
The B train terminated at Queensboro Plaza for 25 years in 86-88. During the mid-day hours, there really is't any tie-up.
The B train terminated at Queensboro Plaza for 2.5 years in 86-88. During the mid-day hours, there really isn't any tie-up.
I think the N should stay on the express tracks until 57th St. Would there be advantages there would be to having N trains stop at 49th Street with the R and W trains already stopping there?
All Queens-bound express traains have always switched over to the local tracks north of 34th so as to not bottleneck trains which would use 57th/7th as a terminal. The B did this in 1986-88. Astoria-bound Brighton line trains did it for decades prior to 1967.
The short-lived N express in 1990 did the same.
Without commenting on your other proposals -- run the M to Broad. Fulton is a major transfer point.
If Broad St. can handle the turnaround of J/M AND Z trains during the rush hour, then I'd say this was a wise alteration of my proposal.
The tunnel tracks through Dekalb are not being usually to capacity now, even with the M (and the Never and the Rarely) all on track 2 (Manhattan bound) and track 1 (southbound). Thus, if you want full capacity through Dekalb, you are not going to achieve it by eliminating the M. No way, until MB is fully restored, can Dekalb be used to maximum capacity, because there are two express tracks at Dekalb (track 4 and the by-pass track) that merge into one for the Broadway express.
I meant maximum potential capacity Dekalb could handle with only 2 bridge tracks. All of it should be dedicated to the Broadway line.
Eliminating the M allows for an increase of Broadway local service (R and W in my proposal). I think 12 R and 12 W trains per hour would suffice. Could the tunnel handle an additional 8 M trains on top of this?
Depending on the signalling, I suppose the tunnel could handle 6 M trains per hour (12 R + 12 W + 6 M = 30 tph). As you well know, there is the equipment shortage...... I would modify your proposal to extending the Q express via 63rd all the way to Jamaica (replacing some of the F trains), the W local via 63rd to Forest Hills instead of the V (thus saving some equipment), N and other Brighton train to Astoria or Queensboro Plaza.
The Daily News should do more fact checking.
-Hank
HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA!
I told ya'll this was going to happen, and all I was met with was opposition!
Happy Holidays, Especially to TD!
Regards,
Trevor Logan
www.transitalk
Nobody said your "scoop" wasn't going to come true. What we said was that it wasn't final and it still isnt. IIRC, your "scoop" stated the W would run through the tunnel and the N would run on the bridge.
Check out www.newsday.com Today's Suffolk edition of the printed paper has a large article buried after the editorial page about it. I guess its coming.
Sorry I don't know how to insert a link to the article like SUBWAYSURF
does with D-N articles and others do with other papers.
Then I'll do it for you,
V TRAIN/NEWSDAY
Peace,
ANDEE
As I suspected, people at the local stops in Queens: 65th, 46th, Northern Blvd, 36th, and Steinway, will not benefit from the 63rd tunnel, as the V and R will take them directly to Queens Plaza.
All local riders on Queens will benefit by a doubling of Manhattan bound direct service, with V trains replacing the useless G. Trains will be less crowded because V trains will be 600' as opposed to the G's current 450'.
It's gonna help everyone. Not as much as another line, but it'll be better than it is now.
"The new line would require new trains. Some 100 of the model R143 trains..."
Umm... where do they get this idea? And aren't the R143s going to the L?
"The V train plan fails to make use of one of the subway system's long-neglected assets, the N express tracks on Broadway..."
And you would think they have heard about the Manhattan Bridge plan already, not to mention the fact that there's no Broadway-63 St or Broadway connection.
"...Court Square...From there, straphangers could transfer to the V and R locals. Unclear if E trains would continue to stop at Court Square."
No comment.
I can just see it now. Someone's gonna start screaming that their line should get the R143's because there's not enough already or their too old . Instead of the L getting the R143's to do CBTC testing and stuff they'll end up on every other line but the L. Maybe by 2010 we'll finally have a finalized plan for implementation of CBTC :)
The R143 order is for only 100 units, with the option for 112 more. Everyone will just have to wait for the R160's, which they should probably order now to get them here by 2010 :)
Shawn.
Yes, those 100 R143 cars will be assigned to the L. This will free up 100 R40/42 cars which will probably move to the N. That, in turn, will free up 100 R32's for Queens Blvd service.
Since not 1 single r143 is ready for tesing, it'll be a while until this happens ...
what a mix up this is. the v train sounds promissing but, unsure. it will create a new line that will run along the e, f route to sixth ave. replacing the f and running in the 63rd connecter. but, how is it gonna reduce the crowded lex ave. station on ef? it will also eliminat e the q line. if that happens then there will not be a brighton express. they should make it run along the NR lines in Broadway using the xpress tracks. it would make more sense, or just scrap the plans because it so far sounds useless.
It's not all that difficult to learn. Just tell your browser to show you the "source" display for a page that contains a link created by one of us. Use the same format, with whatever URL you want to link to, to create your own link. In Internet Explorer, you get to the source display by choosing "source" on the view menu. (Since the slightest typo can mess up a link, always use the preview feature to make sure your link came out right before posting any message here.)
According to www.news12.com - LI news, a train hit a pedestrian just ;east of Mineola at 7:05 AM disrupting service on Ronkonkoma,Pt. Jefferson and Oyster Bay Branches.
Feel bad for the engineer who must now face drug-testing, psychological counseling, etc. and the delayed commuters. But one less nitwit to deal with.
What the hell is going on with the LIRR? Do people have any common sense? I think police should man every crossing and hand out $1000 fines for people crossing in front of down gates!
If the death penalty does not deter these people, $1,000.00 tickets won't either.
About a year after the swap, I expect the Manhattan Bridge to fully open -- and to stay open for about six months until Pataki is re-elected and more cracks are discovered. What would THAT service plan be?
My guess is the B returns to the West End and the D to the Brigton, with the N and Q on the Broadway Express. But would they have the cars to have the Q and V overlap? Perhaps at that point they'll run the Q through to Broadway via 63rd St.
I'd think it will take longer.....anbout 2-3 years before we finally see all tracks open. Hopefully by then enough R143's will be in service to accomodate everyone.
The engineer in charge at NYC has stated that all work will be completed by Summer of 2004. I truly hope the city does the right thing with this. We do need a fully functional Broadway service.
Maybe they could lease the track level to TBTA, and give TBTA the right to effect repairs...
Of course, I'm not being entirely fair. Didn't the city do a very good job of repairing the Williamburg bridge and allowing J service to resume. As I recall, they finished ahead of schedule...
The Willy-B job was done under contract by Parsons Corporation, a multi-national, privately-held engineering company based in Pasadena, CA.
I'd read at one time that US Steel Corp was involved, then refused to finish work (or couldn't) - but this is a vague recollection, so I wouldn't want to swear on it.
There were also financial incentives to finish ahead of schedule. Will there be any in the upcoming Manny B project, or is the state doing the job itself? If so, I'll plan a full Manny B operation party.......for 2050.
I had a dream last night in which the Williamsburg Bridge was completely rebuilt from the ground up. New towers, new cables, the works. The kicker was that it was rebuilt as an exact duplicate of the original. And it was done very quickly.
I could have sworn the Manhattan Bridge was also rebuilt from the ground up as well in my dream - with the exact same track arrangement. Go figure.
many of us have met andee, but how do we know that he is really subway surf?... have any of us ever seen him post from his computer?... i feel i am qualified to raise this question of his identity, since andee, doug, thurston, wayne, sarge, trevor, mark w.,harry, and i think 2 other people were over my apartment and witnessed that i and heypaul are one and the same person...
come to think of it, how do i really know that doug is BMTman, or that mark w. is really mark w... and certainly there is cause for concern if the person some people met videotaping the subway system was the same person who posts as salaam allah...
when you really think of it, perhaps all subtalk posters are not real people but are replacements made from seed pods that arrived from outer space...
...yes human, you are correct. As a matter of fact the only reason I am on this god-forsaken planet is to fill up my flying saucer's fuel-tank (it's quite a bit of a gas-gussler as far as alien spaceships are concerned...:-)
The clone formerly known as BMTman
You wouldn't have that problem if you used interstellar mass transit.
Perhaps we can get the Vogons to build the Interglactal Second Ave. Spaceway!
SHHHH! don't let the cat out of the bag!
Peace,
ANDEE
So you were Subdude by the aliens? :-)
It would seem to the casual observerthat the collective "you" are suffering through an identical crisisisisis.Perhaps if you took a vote and then followed with several re-counts.
avid
a vote sounds like an excellent idea... could we enlist your services to make sure that no one with micro-chip implants behind their right ear will be allowed to vote, that is, after your own right ear has been checked to establish your credibility?
Excuse me for a minute...I have to go change into my religious garb
8-). ....LOL
Peace and Thanks,
ANDEE
Didn't we go through this whole business of will-the-real-heypaul-please-stand-up a while ago? You said you needed to go lie down for a while after all was said and done. Maybe take in a few R-1/9 compressor sounds while in your motorman's cab.:-) Just a thought.
I am sick of the NYCTA pretending that there is track work taking place on the Queens Blvd lines, so that they can save money. During a 52-week year, I would say that service in normal maybe 4 or 5 weekends per year. The rest of the year, forget about it.
Sometimes, all trains run local from Roosevelt to Queens Blvd. Sometimes, an E runs down the local track, because weekend service on the R is so poor, the city would rather inconvenience everyone, and make the express pick up local passengers, instead of running more R trains. But no matter what, they find a way to disrupt service, and make access to NYC difficult for Queens residents.
What I find suspicious, is that these re-routings are always due to track work between Roosevelt, and Queens Plaza. Why? Because passengers can not see the express track for a few stations, so if anyone were smart enought to question the city, they can just say the workers are down the tunnel, in the section not visible to the public.
Smart enough like I am every week, when I have to leave 15 min earlier knowing that there is no express service to the city for whatever contrived reason. And yes, I always let the conductor know that I know there is no track work taking place, and that we went local for no other reason than to save the city money. A shame.
Yes. Didn't you hear? They're going to blow up all the tunnels from Queens to Manhattan, just to make it harder for Queens residents to go to Manhattan.
-Hank
I know it sounds paranoid, but those of us who are the actual victims of these cost-saving measures know otherwise.
Truth is genius, the R train is always too slow to carry the large number of passengers on weekends by itself, as the G does not run to Continental on weekends, so the city just finds reasons to run E and F local, instead of paying for the G to go to Continental.
We'll see what happens this weekend. When Saturday rolls around, and I am sitting on a local E or F, and do not see any sign of track work being done, I will e-mail you, so you can go look for yourself.
There are no GOs scheduled for the Queens Blvd. line this weekend.
I believe that NYCTA and Los Angeles MTA are reading from the same playbook. Since August 25, service on the Red Line has been curtailed on the Wilshire-Western segment evenings after 8:00 pm and weekend mornings before 9:00 am for something called "Tunnel Maintenance Activities". During those hours, only shuttle service is provided from Wilshire-Western to Wilshire-Vermont. One is forced to transfer to a North Hollywood - Union Station train at Vermont-Wilshire. The MTA called these schedule "adjustments" "temporary", but here we are in December four months later, including a one-month strike, when "tunnel maintenance activities" could have taken place 24 hours a day.
Being lied to by government agencies - it's so common, it doesn't even register anymore.
Except the workers who would do the maintainance were on strike.
-Hank
Hank, you are right about the maintenance workers being on strike. I stand corrected. However, when the MTA announced the change in service, it was described as "temporary" and that it would last four to six weeks. Even discounting the strike, that time has passed. I believe their intention is a permanent service reduction for every evening and weekend early mornings.
There is track work. Just because you don't see it doesn't mean it isn't there. They may not be working on the actual tracks, but they are using them to keep work trains or equipment while they're not using it. They may also have to turn off the power so workers can safely get to the work area. They have to have a track adjancent to the 63st connector free for this purpose. Closing the local tracks (even one) would inconvenience people at those stops to a much greater extent than you with an extra 8 minute commute (yes, it is only 8 more minutes).
The actual work (recently) was the activation of the new signalling system for the 63st connector (which also replaced much of the old one on the existing tracks). Before that, it was the installation said system. Before that, it was the creation of the connector itself. It would have gone a lot faster if the entire Queens Independent Subway was shut down in that area, it would have been done years ago.
BTW: They are not saving money this way. Running trains local increases the time it takes for a round trip, requiring more trains and crews to keep the same headways. They also are causing wear on the switches. More tower operators and station personnel are required as well. They also use money on handouts and signs.
Dude, EVERY WEEK, the same location, and it is impossible to find a track worker. I know that there was work being done on the 63rd connector, you are not telling me anything I do not already know. But the truth is, the R on weekends is always delayed, and E and F trains are forced to pick up the slack. Try it one weekend. See what happens.
If the work is being done further up the line from where you got on, you won't see it.
-Hank
So they're only closing the express track so that they can have a work train sitting in the area to serve as a base for construction activities in the 63rd Street connector? If that is the case and they must have a work train in the area, why can't it sit in the station at 21st Street or just east of the station at the beginning of the connector instead of blocking traffic?
Because the construction blocks access from that area?
-Hank
Damn! He's stumbled on the secret!
OK folks, looks like we're going to have to move the wild weekend
parties from the QB cutoff to someplace less conspicuous.
The party spots are being shuffled around next year. The Manhattan TA night club is being moved from the Manhattan Bridge-Broadway approach to the Sixth Avenue approach. Queens partygoers will be in the IND Crosstown tunnel between Queens Plaza and Court Square instead of the Northern Blvd. cutoff, the advantage being that it can stay open 24 hours once they get the G out of the way. The Manhattan spot is nicer, though, with that terrace over the water on the side of the bridge.
No GO's scheduled for this weekend? We'll see what happens when Saturday rolls around. And even if we get full service this weekend, we'll pay the price for many weekends to come after this one.
In fact, they did the same stunt on the 7 line a few weeks ago. NO MANHATTAN SERVICE. NO LOCAL SERVICE between WOODSIDE and QUEENSBORO. This time, there was no stretch of underground track where anyone could say, "they're down there working". The city just put up a red flag on the tracks, inconvenienced everyone, and had absolutely nothing going on.
Why would the city do this? Less motormen on duty=less payroll. Less token clerks on duty=less payroll.
Did you look at the scaffolding on the lower level at Queensboro Plaza?
-Hank
All kidding aside, if you were a member of the NYD ERA
you'd be getting in the monthly newsletter a "construction
forecast". From this I learned that the project you mentioned
on the #7 was to replace the broken glass and other improvements
on the lower level of QBP. Last weekend's GO on the QB line
was for signal equipment installation. This weekend is clear.
Next weekend there will be construction between Roosevelt and
Continental to replace crumbling catwalks.
The notion that the TA deliberately schedules and then doesn't
execute work in order to cut service and save money is a bit
paranoid. Well, maybe not. Maybe everyone IS out to get you?
First off, the "city" doesn't do any of this - the state does!
Had you gone to any of the booths that are normally open on the weekend, you would have found them staffed as normal. Had you gone out to Main St, you would have found every crew that has a job that day reporting as usual - just doing less work. So in actuality, it costs them more because we get paid the same for less work.
Um, no, the Transit Authority, independent of the state or city govewrnments, schedules the repair work needed when needed. They try not to conflict with other repair work, ie, if they're working on the Flushing IRT between Queensboro Plaza and Manhattan, they won't be working on the Astoria line.
-Hank
I gather you never rode any of the 4th Avenue lines during the 1986-87 roadway rebuild when some/all of the tracks were unballasted for weeks and months and all traffic was restricted to crawling along at 5mph. That was 24/7 disruption for a year if not longer. I explained to more than one smartass who bitched "there wasn't anything going on cuz there aren't any guys on the tracks" why the trains had to go slow. "Well they should have guys out anyway so we know."
I think NYCT has done (and will continue to do) plenty of boneheaded things, but they do try to keep total service shutdowns to a minimum. It sure isn't pretty when QB gets held up, but just imagine how horrible things would be if they just shut down the whole line for a week or two to do what they routinely do over the course of a few weekends.
Just north of 72th Street on the northbound 1/9 there has been a section of skeletonized track for like two months now. Trains are restricted to 10mph. Is there a reason behind just leaving it like that?
Shawn.
The reason is solely to inconvenice Queens Blvd riders and personally affront LuchAAA (who started this thread) and his ancestry.
North, or south? It may have something to do with the platform expansion at the station.
-Hank
Probably north. Northbound trains still come barrelling into that station as they always have. I was in that area in October, and there was digging going on from street level north of 72nd St. The median along Broadway was blocked off. However, I didn't ride on that line north of 72nd St. - one of the very few times that has happened during my recent visits to the city.
With all this discussion about local versus express efficiency, I feel compelled to add my cent:
Yesterday I boarded a Manhattan-bound 'B' at Pacific Street. Across the platform was a Slant on the 'N'. The 'B' did its usual crawl over the Bridge, long wait for non-connection at West 4th and express tunnel dash. I got off at 42nd, walked through the long (and cluttered with illegal vendors) transfer tunnel, and had ample waiting time to walk the entire length of the 5th Avenue platform until the Flushing-bound '7' came.
As we approached Queensboro, I could see through the front window the unmistakable silhouette of an ascending-from-portal Slant approaching the Plaza itself. Given that Slants on the 'N' are far and few between on the weekend, it seems fair to conclude that's the same train I saw at Pacific!
Apparently it takes the same amount of time to get between the two points the way I went, and on the 'N', even on its slow, local tunnel/downtown/34th Street-boarding shopping crowds run. Either that or there were two Slants in a row- highly unlikely!
That was a fluke. The bridge is faster. And 2 slant N's in a row is not that unusual.
I'd be suspicious of this without checking car numbers. I've seen three Slanters in a row on the N. While they may not hold down the majority of the car types on this line, their placement into service seems to be random.
Here's an alternative way of estimating it, without doing the actual ride: According to the NYCT schedules, rush hour B trains take 17 minutes to go from 36 Street to Grand St. Rush hour N trains take 16 minutes to go from 36 Street to Whitehall. The N has a slightly longer routing with three additional stops. From this, one could conclude the tunnel is faster.
That's funny, because I saw an R32 N leaving the station on Saturday at QBP on Manhattan bound 7. Got on a B right away at 42nd. It was a crawl across the bridge, and when we pulled into 36th, the N was just pulling out and it was an R32!
Could it have been the same train?
This little tale relates the fact that you get in more trouble for refusing stupid orders than following them and having things go wrong.
**********************************************************************
Today; We do exactly what we are told, over.
Over the years, the FRA has attempted to enforce proper radio procedures on America's railroads. Some railroads likewise, have forced the issue as well. The
use of the word "over" after completing a transmission that a response is expected, the word "out" after a transmission when the communication is complete and no response is expected. Never, are "over" and "out" to be used together. Also, railroad name or initials are to be used when beginning a broadcast such as "CNICtrain GLME to Chicago South over."
I understand the reasoning behind this and have no arguments with it. I really do attempt to follow procedures. Once in awhile I go astray, but overall, I would say I'm pretty well in compliance. Even when I make a sarcastic remark, I'll say over,
or to indicate I don't wish to deal with some official that has taken
exception to what I have said, I'll use "out" instead, and usually in a rather unpleasant tone of voice. They may get me for sarcasm, but at least it will be in compliance with proper radio proceedure.
Now over the years, I've always said that the best way to make the big money on the railroad is to do exactly what we have been instructed to by those that are in
charge and oh so much smarter than those of us that are merely the help. On the night in question, we followed instructions to the letter. As a result, there was
a major episode, and I have the pictures to prove it.
This was during my days at the MoPac. It was fall of 1981 and I was working as the Fireman on the Heights Run. This was essentially a local that worked between Yard Center and Chicago Heights. We did some industry work enroute, delivered cars to the EJ&E at Chicago Heights, pulled their deliveries to us
and returned to Yard Center. That is, if we didn't go dead on the hours first or get recrewed to cut overtime and cabbed back instead.
Delivering to the EJ&E involved a long back-up move of about a mile over four road crossings. We often had to make two deliveries as we had so many cars, we had to deliver to the interchange tracks on both sides of their double track
main line. These deliveries took about 45 minutes to an hour for each one attempted. We also had some industry work around the yard at 26th Street. So oftentimes, we barely made it back alive, if at all.
On this particular evening, we delivered the first cut of cars to "the J" and went to do some industry work as they had traffic and could not handle the second delivery for awhile. There was a large lumber yard south of 26th Street Yard. It was called Nebraska Bridge and Supply at one time and later Hines. I cannot recall which one it was at that time, but we switched them just the same. We
had spotted a load of lumber in there the evening before. Tonight, we had to go and pull the car, turn it on the wye and respot it. This particular car was an "A frame" bulkhead flat, also known as a "center beam" car. These are those 73 foot long bulkhead flats with the frame that extends the height and length of the car.
Being that is it may, the lumber yard didn't have the facilities to unload both sides of the car. They were only able to unload the east side of the car.
Pay close attention to compass direction here as it will play a big part in the evening's events. The east side of the car was empty, the west side loaded. These cars can become very unstable in this situation. But, we were given instructions from the CHTT (Chicago Heights Terminal Transfer) Yardmaster to turn it, and so it shall be done.
The plan was to take the car north through the east side of 26th ST Yard to the east wye, onto EJ&E trackage and then proceed west for about a third of a mile to the west leg of they wye and around it south and zig zag over to the crossovers just north of 26th ST Yard, and south of Jay Tower, where the EJ&E
crossed and connected. This was the plan anyway. This would have kept the load balanced as it would have been on the outside of the curves on both wyes. The car would be leaning towards the insides of the curves. But, as it would happen, an EJ&E Signal Maintainer was doing some work on the east leg of the
wye. The Operator at Jay Tower informed us the HE wanted us to take the car around the west leg of the wye first, so as to give his Maintainer the time he
needed to finish his project instead of having to stop and wait the five minutes for us. We argued rather heatedly that this would not work as the load was already unbalanced, and we didn't want to take the chance of it falling off or the
car tipping over. But, the Operator insisted we do it his way instead. I questioned him as to "who died and left him in charge". He said he was in control of the interlocking and therefore, "He was calling the shots." I responded "Okay fine!", and off we went.
We had to come out onto the northbound main and crossover to the southbound track, and then into the lead for the west side of 26th ST Yard. As we did so, the
car was really leaning over to the west, the side the load was on. The
Engineer I was working with, a really great guy named Stanley who we called Stash or Pipi (a play on his last name), an old country Greek who was a lot of fun to work and train with (when I was still training), kept saying "we're gonna turn it over. I know
we're gonna turn it over. And I'll bet we do it between the main lines here and tie-up the entire railroad." Somehow, we didn't. I gently nudged the car along at about 2 or 3 MPH through the mainline crossovers and from the southbound to the west yard lead. Still upright. So far, so good.
We then started into the west leg of the wye. We had two GP38-2's shoving the car with the caboose ahead of the car so as a crew member didn't have to ride the side of the car for miles. The car is leaning to the west with the load on the west side of the car. Not a good mix. We get about a third of the way through the wye and Stash is still fretting about turning the car over. I looked his way to say something when all of a sudden, there was this very loud "SNAP!" I looked back
in time to see a spectacular sight. As soon as I realized as to what was happening, I yelled out "Holy shit!" Stash jumped up and said "See, I told you!"
As I looked back towards the car, there, in slow motion, the car started to roll over on its side. The headman was riding the leading end (north) platform on the
caboose. He saw it starting to roll and just jumped off and headed for the high country. I immediately placed the train into emergency, not that it would do any good. Just a reaction I guess. The car ever so slowly and gracefully, went
over on its side. It made quite the racket too. As it went completely over, it struck a communications pole that carries all the wires for signal, telephone and voice communication on the railroad. It snapped in half and down came the wires.
So there it was, the car on its side, all the lading on the west side having fallen off. The south set of trucks was still on the rail, well sort of. The south end drawbar and coupler was still coupled to the north locomotive. It had torn off from the car along with the bell housing to which it is attached and what is attached to the car. The north set of trucks had derailed. The caboose was still on the rail. The north end drawbar of the car had slid out from its coupling
to the caboose, so there was no damage to the caboose. The north engine was also not derailed or damaged either.
Stanley and I sat there looking at this sight for a moment just staring, and then
we burst into hysterical laughter. Stash kept saying "See, I told you this would happen!" We laughed for almost a minute when the Operator at Jay Tower called and asked if we caught any of the lines as his communication had been knocked out. The headman Mike, told him to take a look out his back window to see why. When Stash and I regained our composure, I finally called the CHTT
Yardmaster on the radio and told him we needed his presence pronto. When he inquired as to why, I told him he really needed to get here now as we had a problem with the car we were turning. All during this conversation, I was fighting
the laughter big time.
We got off the engines to assess the situation. The car was trashed. Lumber was everywhere. Wires were dangling. Rail was twisted and bent. And the Maintainer was still working on the east leg of the wye.
As it would happen, both Stash and I had brought our cameras to work that evening to compare them. So, out they came and the shutters were clicking away. I only had few shots left on the roll, so that was all I got of this momentous event. Ever since that day though, I always carry my camera with me to work.
(Except while at the EJ&E).
Finally, Kenny, the CHTT Yardmaster arrives. He observes the situation and takes in the facts at hand. He then looks at me and says "What happened?" I quickly and politely told him "We did exactly what you told us to dowhen you called us." "What was that" he asked? "I responded "Well, you're the one who called and instructed us to "turn the car, over." He shrugged and said
"Cute, real cute."
But wait, it doesn't end here. There's more. The following night, those who are in the know, and lead us throughout this industry concocted a plan. The had Hulcher come out and rerail the car, and place the load back onto it. Now, they
want us to take the car back through the mainline crossovers, shove it
through the east yard at 26th ST and respot it back at the lumber yard so they can finish unloading it. What a plan. And to think, they actually pay these people to think of this stuff. We questioned their sanity on this idiotic move. We all wanted
to know why they didn't have the lumber company send a couple of trucks to the scene of the accident to load up with the salvageable lumber and haul it back to the yard. We later learned it was money.
So now, we have to handle this crippled, out of line car back through the crossovers and back south to the lumber yard. This time, we were really hoping it would turn over between the mains and shut down the railroad. It was really leaning and bending as we made the move through the crossovers. The wheels were rubbing up against the bottom of the car as it went through them as well. It leaned way over, to the point that we expected it to go back over on its side
several times. Somehow though, it didn't. We gingerly nursed it across the mains, through the yard and back into the lumber yard without further incident.
Several days later, we had to handle this car back to Yard Center. The RIP Track folks had come out and worked on the car enough to make it road worthy. The car was restricted to 25 mph though. Being that one drawbar and bell housing was torn out, it had to run behind the caboose. As we headed north that
night, the Conductor and Flagman kept a watchful eye on the car. The said it had all kinds of lateral (side to side) motion against the rail and suggested that I reduce the speed. We limped it, along with the rest of the train along at 10 mph.
They told me that any speed faster than that and it really started the
lateral motion again. Why they didn't load it up onto an 89 foot flat and transport it back that way was beyond me. But I would willing to bet that it was all over money. Save a buck here, save a buck there. Tie up the railroad doing it, but we're really
saving the money now.
Yet another plan that literally, fell into place.
And so it goes.
Tuch
Where are you copying these stories from?
-Hank
My archive. I get them via e-mail every few weeks and i save them into my archive (big .txt file). I've been collecting them since Feburary 2000. You can privately e-mail me for the entire archive, read them on subtalk as I post them (to pace yourself) or subscrive to the Conrail-Talk e-mail list at Conrail-Talk@dsop.com for new ones.
If this material has been copied from another source, what, exactly, is the point of posting it on SubTalk? Aside from copyright issues, instead of clogging up Dave Pirmann's server, why not just point to these "Railroad Stories" for those interested?
This material is from past emails; it's not copied from another website.
The author has made it clear that he does not mind cross posting of his work as long as he is given credit etc etc. These stories have given me a much better understanding of how rail transport works and I thought I would provide these stories in an expidited maner to a group that can appriciate them.
I, for one, have really enjoyed reading them. And they certainly take up less space on Dave's holy server than petty diagreements between Train Rude and LaLa. Relax. Subtalk needs a little humor now and then and that's exactly what jersey Mike's posting.
P.S. Jersey Mike could you send me that big .txt file? thanx.....
Its not humour. Its detailed info on rail operations served in a humour coating. I have really learned a lot from hot times. For example there was a recent edition where we took us on a tour of a typical locomotive cab. Many of his remarks and observations were funny, but you also learn what's located in a typical locomotive cab. There is also an interesting one where de describes operating in the fog. Did you know that engineers are expected to maintain normal linespeed in '0' visibility fog?
Great work and re-work. Keep it cumin.
avid
Typical of railroad top brass, making money at everyone else's expense, and safety. Just another horrible story about workers not having the power to make their own decisions.
I read some comments posted about the JFK Express, so I thought I'd throw my 2 cents in.
In 1990, the JFK Express, a train starting on Sixth Av and then switching to Fulton St in Brooklyn, running as a "super-express" with a frequency of every 20 minutes, was cancelled.
When asked about reviving this route in 2002, to coincide with the start of AirTrain service to Howard Beach and the opening of a new, fully ADA-compliant and baggage-friendly subway station at Howard Beach, the MTA wrote in reply that this train would interfere with existing "A" service, so they are not planning to establish it again.
Presumably, a "super express" could work if 1)timing and scheduling are carefully controlled in regard to A trains 2) the JFK Express is able to weave between the other trains by use of switches to move from express to local tracks and back (or other trains move out of its way). For bypassing express platforms, the practice would be similar to what LIRR trains do: a warning blast from a horn prior to passing a platform and not stopping.
What do you folks think? Waste of time, or something to be considered? A useful service alternative to LIRR Jamaica service (which won't link to AirTrain until 2003)? Perhaps an interim service, to be cancelled when AirTrain's Jamaica leg opens in 2003?
Or not?
The original Airtrain was payed for by PA.
Arti
It is probably faster to take LIAR to JAM and pick-up Airtran there because it is a lot shorter in distance. Therefore I doubt it would work. Also unless you are just packing an overnight bag, you'd have to "schelp" heavy suitcases up and down staircases and through turnstiles. In a case like that limos and cabs look a lot more attractive.
It was a dismal failure when it ran....those 3 car R46 trains were 95% empty. It's a waste of valuable subway cars.
I agree the service did not meet its goal.
How many cars were dedicated to the "Train to the Plane"?
How could service be changed to better serve the Air Travelers?
Maybe offpeak service for dedicate equipement, limited stops, and Far Rock and Rock Park "A" during Rush hour. Between 6:00am and 9:00am and 4:00pm and 7:00pm . Perhaps the R110B orphans could serve as some of the dedicated equipement. They have nice floor space for luggage. Maybe , just maybe if spare parts could be found, three sets could be squeezed out for service.
Its a crying shame the LIRR Rocaway Branch couldn't be revived for direct Airport to Grand Central , or Port Auth and Penn Station service . What did the old LIRR scheduals have service to Aquaduct or Howard Beach at? Is it still posted Here or am I thinking of "Change At Ozone Park".
The rest of the country and World is or has Airport service . Some grand , some plane jane . The NY Metro Area is Lagging behind Air Yak in it service.
avid
Actually, the ones that used it the most were the Howard Beach residents who used it as a "private subway" to and from Manhattan.
It's not worth it, especially if such a train were to switch back and forth between tracks. Until the A began operating express in Brooklyn all day, the JFK express had the Fulton St. express tracks all to itself except during rush hours. When I rode on it in 1984, the motorman would honk the horn if we were bypassing a station we weren't stopping at.
It appears that the unanimous opinion so far is that the JFK Express, as routed in the 1980's, will not work. All of you have persuaded me that this is true.
One possible reserruction would be to reopen the lower level at 42nd/8th and run a new JFK express in the same manner as the old Aqueduct racetrack specials. It could then have it's own dedicated terminal and seperate fare controls. This, of course, would require expensive construction to facilitate.
Your observation also leads to the conclusion that is impractical, since during the time needed to construct it, AirTrain will have been completed, tested, and made ready for service.
Of course, your concept is good in general - I wonder if there are other transit purposes for this...perhaps an increase in line capacities would provide other benefits we haven't yet anticipated.
Another item for the wish list (do I hear anyone saying HEY BUDDY,GET IN LINE!)
The current service is free.
Last I heard, the AirTrain will cost what? $5? from Howard Beach (yet it will be free from the adjacent parking lots).
And you expect people to pay yet more for the subway to Howard Beach?
Sorry, I'll be either in a cab or on the Q10 or B15. I'm afraid many others will do likewise if the Howard Beach--JFK run does not remain free. I'm quite skeptical about this entire AirTrain thing.
There are all kinds of rumors flying around about AirTrain fares. I think we should remember two things:
1. We don't know what will or won't be charged. Too early in the process.
2. The nice thing about pricing is that if one price doesn't work out, the PA can change it. Much easier than doing a lot of other things.
Agreed -- nothing is set in stone at this point. But I think it would be a great setback for the replacement for the current free shuttle bus to not be free. Sure, it'll be faster, but that doesn't help anyone who doesn't mind the slow ride but doesn't want to pay more than a single subway fare.
JFK Airport should remain in the one-fare zone, like the rest of the city.
I agree that JFK should remain in the "one-fare zone." But, as a marketer, the PA may be looking at this from the point of view of assessing what the market will really bear. Are most of their customers willing to pay more? Referring to a bit of economics: How elastic will demand be for this service? What will the effect be on total revenue of a particular fare? On ridership? The PA may or may not consider you or me to be an example of a "typical" AirTrain rider.
The only way to really know this is to begin the service at a particular price (whatever it is), and then gauge reaction. I hope that it will be as accessible (price-wise) to as many people as possible.
Possibly there will be a hearing prior to the fare schedule being put into effect (similar to what happens at the MTA). If that is the case, make sure the PA hears from you.
As an occasional customer of the PA (when I fly to see my grandchildren I usually go from JFK), I would hate to see the PA charge Howard Beach and Jamaica customers for the AirTrain. That said, there is some rationale in doing so, because those patrons going to the parking lots are already paying money to the PA for parking there, and the inter-terminal riding (when customers are changing from one airline to another) is paid for via the passenger facility charge - those folks are getting soaked twice, not once. But I think a fare higher than that charged on PATH should not be considered.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
>>> run a new JFK express in the same manner as the old Aqueduct racetrack specials. <<<
Specials to Aqueduct were feasible because many people were going there at a particular time. Since the airport would need service all day long, there would be many trips with relatively low passenger loads. The Airtrain, with its much shorter route, and connection to the subway which can take the passenger to wherever he is going in the New York area is a much better solution.
Tom
I agree. I was merely proposing a better route over the old one for the "Train to the Plane" used.
I hated that. My favorite cars running non-stop and empty made me so jealous that I once spent an entire week's allowance in 1986 to pay for the extra fare to ride it from Howard Beach to 57th/6th.
Starting today and every Monday, a new poll question will be posted on Oren's Transit Page. This is a chance to be asked transit related question in secret without recounts or uncounted votes. This week's poll:
Polls change every Monday afternoon. If there are any questions you wish to have asked, e-mail me.
Sincerely,
Oren H.
Webmaster of Oren's Transit Page
http://www.orenstransitpage.com/
This afternoon while waiting for a 2 or 3 train to arrive, the Yankee R142 train come North at 34st. At a fairly fast speed this train was O/O/S also cars 6317 and 6318 appeared to have spotted or flat wheels ALREADY...... I finally caught a # 2 train. I rode car # 8985 it is the 3rd north motor it was coupled to 8998 both of these cars had very loud sqeaky breaks big time. The wrap on car 6320 appears to be falling off.
oh, my, god.
has vandalism actually begun?
w-wait a minute. I'm just asking, since i go to school, at IS 162, why is the 3 running on the 2 and 5 line?
oh, my, god.
has vandalism actually begun?
w-wait a minute. I'm just asking, since i go to school, at IS 162, why is the 3 running on the 2 and 5 line?
Vandalism?? I wouldn't call the wrap coming off vandalism. And he said that train passed him at 34 Street, which is where the 2-3 trains stop.
Clark Palicka
CEO TrAnSiTiNfO
http://www.nyctransitinfo.com
The 3 is going to the yard on White Plains Rd to get washed.
-Stef
That train has been out of service a lot lately! I actually looked for it at 34th Street on Friday. It passed by northbound at around 12:40 P.M., but it was out of service. I waited an hour for it to come back, but it never did. Then, at about 5:30 P.M., I was going toward Brooklyn on a #5 train which went along the #2 line without any explanation whatsoever, and the R-142 train was in service northbound at Fulton Street. Unfortunately, it left before I could get on it. I was going to post this Friday night, but I have been having Internet trouble ever since I upgraded to Netscape 6.
- Lyle Goldman
I read the article on the new W line, the thing that I find the strangest, is have these two lines end at the same point.I mean having two subway lines coming from the upper Bronx packed and have them terminate at a midtown station? These people will have to get off change to another train, and you have large amounts of people getting off there anyway, plus the platform will be packed full of angry and confused people, not counting the extra rush hour service. and the back up of trains terminating, this is poor planning
I don't think so. W4th, Lafayette amd Grand St are not major destinations for the people from Updown and the Bronx. If they need to go Downtown CPW offers a connection to A and 7th Avenue to E.
Arti
Actually, the last time they did it, in the late 80's, it worked surprisingly well.
Peace,
ANDEE
And that was with a transfer from an orange B or D to a yellow B or D at 34 St! It makes the Q and seem as difficult as navigating the Newark City Subway ;)
And back when they did it the late eighties due to bridge work, there were TWO 'B's and TWO 'D's, differentiated by trunk line color, one on each level at Herald Square.
It's interesting that this change would return the West End and Brighton to 'pure BMT service', as it was pre-Christie. Likewise, the 'B' would resemble its old pre-Christie 'BB' service, except it would go up the Concourse instead of to 168th. The 'D' would assume much of its pre-Culver connection form. From 1933 to 1954 it ran the way the 'F' does now from Broadway-Lafayette to Church/McDonald. If I recall correctly, from the 1940 to 1954 the 'F's Manhattan terminus was 34th Street or Broadway-Lafayette at different times of day or week.
It would be great if, under this new plan, that instead of the 'D' ending at 34th, it were to continue express to West 4th or Broad/Laf, switch over to the local tracks and follow the 'F' to Brooklyn. If only lower Bergen were operable, the 'D' could then run express through Houston, Rutgers and Smith to Church. The 'F' would continue to run local to provide the wealthy of Carroll Gardens, the Slope and the Terrace direct service to Manhattan. This could be a weekday or rush-hour only extension.
There would also be an additional service through Rutgers. Two forms of relief: Less crowded 'F' trains to and from Brooklyn; and more service for horribly overcrowded East Broadway and Delancey.
Of course, the 'G's that turn on the viaduct wouldn't be able to because the express tracks it uses would be taken up by 'D' expresses. We'd just have to extend the 'G' to Church as well, or even have it as a local ending at Kings Highway, with the 'F' to Coney running express Church through Kings.
The other drawback is that the 'B' would have no place to turn at 34th. In that case, it could continue downtown, switch over at West 4th (the way the JFK express did) and continue to WTC, providing supplemental service to the 'E'. Or would this cause a reduction in 'E' service and slots at the WTC stub?
It's just a fantasy, but we railfans revel in fantasy, don't we?
If I remember prior to 1954 Culver Extension. The F ran to Church Ave, The D Terminated at Bdwy Laffayette and Hudson Terminal(WTC) for a couple years. When that happened the E Terminated at Bdwy Laffayette. After 1954, the D went to Coney island. The F Mon-Fri 6A-9P terminated at 2nd Ave or Bdway Laff. Other times it terminated at 34th St. Also at that time on Bdwy there were 3 express and 1-2 Locals. When the Brighton Exp did not run, the local ran via Bridge and Exp in Manhatten. and only the (2) 4th Ave was a local.
Yup, and for the first year of the divided service the cars had no yellow B or D signs. And since the R42's that ran on the northern B/D didn't have the segmented side signs they do now post GOH, all the signs were wrong. D trains terminating at 34th were always signed as "205th St, Bronx/Brighton Beach" and the rush hour B's as "168th St, Manhattan/Bay Parkway". In addition, the R27/30 cars assigned to the M at this time when it ran to 9th Ave. always had "36th St, Brooklyn" as it's southern destination (The R16, with it's pre Culver shuttle demise side signs, said the correct "Ninth Avenue").
However, for some strange reason, the R40's assigned to the southern B had proper signage from day #1.
Since southern B trains terminated at 57th St. most of the time, and since they already did so at 57th and 6th Ave., they naturally had a "57th St./Coney Island" sign combination.
No, I'm talking about the B going to Queens, with signs that had diamond B's saying "Ditmar's Blvd., Astoria/Coney Island" and circle B's which said "Queensboro Plaza/Coney Island". Although many were in black and white (like most R40/42 side signs were back then), they were there when the first diversions began in April 1986.
The Broadway B never terminated at 57th/7th in the initial reroute scheme. Only when the N/R terminal switch was made in May 1987 was weekend B service curtailed from QBP to 57/7th. Strangely, those trains used the old 57th St-Ave of Americas/Coney Island orange signs (on trains which still had color side signs).
Very weird.
It worked for 2.5 years during 1986-88, plus 27 years from 1967 back. The D would use the uptown express track to relay, the B would use the downtown track to relay. It does slow stuff down a bit, but it'll work.
Prior to 1967, the BB was a rush hour-only service, and D trains simply switched to the local track before 34th St., since they continued down 6th Ave. F trains ran to Broadway-Lafayette during rush hours, IIRC, so BB trains had the inner tracks all to themselves at 34th St. when they were running.
No other real option exists. It worked ok in 86-88, but today's B/D trains carry more people and might require more frequent service than back then. Also, the B was a rush hour only operation. With B trains terminating there all day, it could get stacked up all the way to 7th Ave.
We'll have to wait and see.
The BB Trains always used the Northbound Exp Tracks to Terminate at 34th, and so did the F when it terminated there.
I read the article on the new W line, the thing that I find the strangest, is have these two lines end at the same point.I mean having two subway lines coming from the upper Bronx packed and have them terminate at a midtown station? These people will have to get off change to another train, and you have large amounts of people getting off there anyway, plus the platform will be packed full of angry and confused people, not counting the extra rush hour service. and the back up of trains terminating, this is poor planning
Actually, I doubt any trains will run lite from 34th to Concourse Yard. So, what the MTA could do is close up as if 34th was a normal station, make an announcement the train will return to 34th momentarily for the stupid and illiterate and those whose minds start to wander after 30 seconds. They can reverse the train wherever they plan to do it and then head back north. Looking at my IND track map, trains can either switch directions north of 34th Street or north of 4th Street. So, the MTA could do B trains on the NB Express and D trains on the SB express at 34th or they could run lite to 4th and turn around there. What did they do when the north side was closed in the eighties?
>>>What did they do when the north side was closed in the eighties?<<<
Southbound D trains wrong-railed onto the N/B express tracks and crews changed ends. Southbound B trains came in on the S/B Express track as normal but, crews changed ends and wrong-railed N/B and switched at 1st crossover.
Peace,
ANDEE
The exact opposite. D's used the northbound express track. The rush hour B trains used the downtown express track.
Exactly what they are doing now. But most people seem to have short memories. The only major changes are the elimination of using one letter for both services.
-Hank
Back in 1985, B and D trains ran to W. 4th St. I remember taking one of the two and being quite surprised when we were discharged there. When I asked the conductor what was going on, he replied, "Where've you been?" I told him I was from Colorado but used to come to the city frequently when I lived back east, whereupon he explained the bridge situation.
By 1986, they were being turned at 34th St.
You must've ran into a special off peak GO. The D was running over the north side of the bridge until 1986, and it began terminating at 34th immediatly after the north side was closed.
Today I was on the Queens-bound R train returning home from school. Bad news was there was a larger than normal crowd waiting at 59 and Lex. Good news was, for some reason, at Queens Plaza, the train went express on the local tracks to Roosevelt Avenue, stopping only at Steinway Street!!
Good news for me since Roosevelt Avenue is my home station.
Wish they could do this every day.... but why tonight? Did they have to make up time due to lateness? The conductor told us we were going express on the local, but never said why.
>>>Did they have to make up time due to lateness?<<<
Exactly.
And that train should have gone directly to Roosevelt Av. and bypass Steinway St. altogether. The C/R or T/O probably had a friend getting off there and that's why they made the extra stop.
I've been on R trains where they go express on the local tracks. The trains sometimes stop at Steinway. It's the busiest of all the local stops between QP and Roosevelt Ave. It makes sense somewhat because of the Q101 and maybe the Q104 (but I doubt it is very significant). A lot of people (I am guessing) who take the train at Steinway, take the 101 along Steinway which stops right by the entrance.
I went to a driving school right above the Steinway Street entrance. The Manhattan bound Q101 bus stop in the middle of Steinway Street which is where the main entrance of the subway station is.
Train#1932Mike
You are correct. If I drive to work, I'll stop at a newstand right by the main, midblock entrance to Steinway Street. If a Manhattan-bound Q101 stops there, virtually everybody piles off and down the stairs.
The entrance, which leads to the extreme north end of the platform, is in the middle of the block because of the sweeping curve the line takes onto Broadway. On street level you can actually see an odd angle of a building and driveway at the SW corner of Broadway and 41st Street that seems to precisely trace the path of the tracks.
I once rode a late R train which stopped at Queens Plaza, Steinway, Roosevelt, Woodhaven, and finally, Forest Hills.
Likewise, when the 1/9 runs express due to overcrowding (which, I'll point out once again, occurs because there are insufficient locals, not expresses), it often (but not always) stops at 59th.
Same with the 6; it will run express from 14 St to Brooklyn Bridge, but stopping at Bleecker St.
Southbound only, I assume.
Are transfer volumes heavier at Bleecker than at Canal? I assume once the bridge flip occurs, Canal will have more transfer traffic.
This is what the tA should do once the other side of the bridge opens.I know the TA wont do this because it makes sense, but tell me if this could work:
Q-monday-friday express Brighton Beach to/from 57th St-7th Av via Bridge
Q-Weekends,nights,holidays-local Coney Island to/from 57th St-7th Avenue via Bridge(express via bway all times except nights).
M-Monday-Friday-Coney Island to/from Metropolitan Avenue. local in brooklyn
The article in the Daily news says there will be 2 "Q" trains. Can you picture what rush hour would be like>? Having 2 Q is stupid, and bringing the M back works better. I hope the TA looks at this and uses the idea. Would it work? Let me know.
M-weekends,nights-Metropolitan Avenue to/from myrtle Avenue.
I don't think the MTA has enough cars to bring the M over to the Brighton. Even so, as others have pointed out, there are two 6 trains and two 7 trains, people will live with two Q trains.
And they'll like the idea of 2 Q's then seeing their midtown service cut in half with the M train running there.
There's a reason why M service was never brought back to the Brighton line after the express track rehab was finished in 1988. Nobody wanted it.
Why not (until the bridge work is finished) combine the V and the M into a single route? Run the V through the Chrystie Street Cut, over the Williamsburg Bridge, and along the M.
[Why not (until the bridge work is finished) combine the V and the M into a single route? ]
Sounds like a good idea, probably some of them terminating on 2nd Avenue. The only problem would be 8 car trains, but I'm not sure that MTA has enough cars to run V as a 10 car train anyway.
Arti
[Why not (until the bridge work is finished) combine the V and the M into a single route? ]
(Sounds like a good idea, probably some of them terminating on 2nd Avenue. The only problem would be 8 car trains, but I'm
not sure that MTA has enough cars to run V as a 10 car train anyway.)
I think using the unused portion of the Chrystie St has to be considered. Sure, the KK didn't attract a lot of riders, but that was 30 years ago. If you've ever seen the crush to change to the F at Delancy, you'd know that 2/3 of the riders are going to Midtown.
The real solution is to combine the V with the J and Z. Keep the M on the West End, where the riders are used to it. You won't be adding any additional service where you don't need it, since the J and Z will be covering LESS trackage than they used to before joining the V route. That will save cars.
And if you have the V starting its Queens Blvd. run at Jamaica Center you can make it a big, unconnected circle also ending at Jamaica Center (via the J/Z). Imagine, a north and south terminal for the same train!
Andrew
Ooops! That should have read "The same station serving as both a north and south terminal for the same train."
Won't they have to eliminate M on West End anyway? Tunnel capacity, car shortage, not much used.
Arti
(Won't they have to eliminate M on West End anyway? Tunnel capacity, car shortage, not much used.)
It's fairly well used. With half the bridge out, there are only so many trains that can go via bridge. So you can't add more B trains, or Ds, or Qs. You've got to run something other than the N/R through the tunnel. That's the M.
The M is well used.....until it reaches Dekalb Ave, where it loses much of it's riders who need trains into Midtown.
Increasing N/R service and eliminating the M completely is an idea whose time has come.
Just Bring Back the KK as the K. Run it between Jamaica Center and Jamaica Center as a Local.
Yes, yes, yes, it hadn't occurred to me how close my idea was to the legendary Jamaica-Jamaica route.
The M will need to be extended to Broad when it doesn't run to Brooklyn. (I don't care about Broad itself but Fulton is a useful transfer point.)
As for why -- the V and the J/Z terminate near each other as it is. Merging them doesn't inconvenience anyone except the few who are going from Williamsburg to the Financial District, and it eliminates a transfer for many others. As Larry points out, the J/Z empties out at Essex in favor of the F, and many of those who stay on board transfer at Canal to the N/R/6, at Chambers to the 4/5, or at Fulton to the A/C/2/3. For most of those riders, a direct uptown routing is at least as convenient as backtracking to the south.
Hate to break the news to you, but at least half the J/M/Z riders work in lower Manhattan and do not transfer to any other train. I'm one of them.
Re-routing any line up 6th Ave. will inconvienence as many people as it "conviences".
The city cannot run a new service to midtown over the Willy B, only to remove it 3 years later. Nobody used the KK line in the 1970's, I simply don't understand why everyone else is so keen to bring this failure back to life.
(The city cannot run a new service to midtown over the Willy B, only to remove it 3 years later.)
There is no need to remove it. The route of the V is, in fact, a separate issue from the bridge flip, unless they are going to replace the V with the Q if and when the bridge is fully open. And I doubt that -- they'll want two services (B, D) on the A-B tracks and two on the H tracks (N, Q) to balance the load. So the V is going to have to end up somewhere. It will either run through as extra Culver service, run thorugh as Willie B service, or just terminate at 2nd Avenue. The latter option seems pointless.
(Nobody used the KK line in the 1970's, I simply don't understand why everyone else is so keen to bring this failure back to life.)
Let's just say population and employment patterns have shifted a wee bit since then. All you have to do to estimate ridership is to get the inbound on the J/M/Z, then count then number transferring to the F at Essex St. I'd bet it's two-thirds.
V trains running through Chrystie St. would always be limited to 8 car trains, which would limit their capacity on Queens Blvd. A confusing situation having a line both beginning and ending in Queens would arise. J/Z traffic would undoubtedly limit headways on the V.
The V would be much more useful if extended to Church Ave and the resumption of the long-dormant express service on the F line would then be feasible. There is no rational reason to place all these restrictions on the entire V line simply to eliminate a transfer at Essex/Delancey. Let's be serious. All these proposals to revive 6th Ave/Eastern division service are based soley on the desire of railfans to see this long dormant service restored.
M, as less frequent as it is, serves only lower Manhattan. Those riders along the Brooklyn M line (Brighton or West End) would most likely not want to transfer for as far as they could, and most probably would want to go further than just lower Manhattan.
Regarding the Q, there are 2 center express tracks and 2 outer local tracks for most of the way along the Brighton. I hope normal Q passengers will understand which side of the platform will be express and which side will be local! Even a child can figure this out! (I think... I do have my doubts also) If this simple choice of A and B proves to be too much to understand for Brighton riders then they don't deserve ANY service at all!
Yes, but can they deal with figuring it out on the way home?
That is a good point. We'll see how this idea does in 2001.
They manage to figure it out on the 5, 6, and 7.
I'm sure tons of announcements will be made at Prospect Park.
Ok, it must be about 20 years ago or something like that, but I know 3 lines ran on Brighton. I know this will may cause more confusion than good but what about this:
W - Instead of West End, how about running it as the Brighton Local (I know the W roll signs say West End but oh well it's just an idea to talk about - or if you really think about it, why not just have it as the Broadway D).
Q - Keep it as the Brighton Express
M - Run that on the West End Line. (I know the ridership along Nassau Street line doesn't warrant an all day run to CI AND I'm sure the West End riders will probably hang my head for this idea but it).
Have fun
=)
change the Q Local to K so there will be no confusion, Bring the K
the confusion caused by the similarities of subwaysurf's handle and subfan's handle is nothing compared to what may soon transpire here... a descendant of bennett cerf, founder of random house, will soon be posting here under the handle of subwaycerf... likewise, a railfan who is whose whole family line was sold to a feudal landowner will also be posting here under the handle subwayserf... a philadelphia railfan who is fond of the 40th street portal will be posting soon as subwaysurface...the owner of a large restaurant chain that is known for their early bird specials will soon be posting here as surfandturf...
fortunately for me, my own reputation at subtalk is so poor, that no one has chosen a handle that could in any way be confused with mine...
LOL!
[fortunately for me, my own reputation at subtalk is so poor, that no one has chosen a handle that could in any way be confused with mine...]
Well what about a hillbilly-type named Paul from the 'sticks' coming on SubTalk with the handle 'haypaul'. I can see it now....;-)
BMTman
What about a South-Philly type called Yopaul?
How about the SubTalker from Transvestylvania, rupaul?
Or his four sibling lookalikes Quadrupaul!
avid
How about a rapper B-Eminem-T man!
Thanks, Bob! I really needed that..:-(
By the way BMT Man, is our feud still on, or is it now off?
How about his ancient ancestor Neanderpaul.
avid
That's almost worth a rim shot.:-)
Unfortunately, someone on Yahoo has. I found the "Spirit of th R-9" page a while ago and tried to view your profile at profiles.yahoo.com/pkronenberg; a slight typographical error led me to http://profiles.yahoo.com/pkronenburg">profiles.yahoo.com/pkronenburg, and, needless to say, I was surprised :).
I hope I haven't exposed a secret identity here...
hey... thanks for alerting me to pkronenburg... i think that is the first time i've seen my last name spelled that way... although i will check with my psychiatrist to make sure this is not one of my repressed personalities, i am pretty sure that this person is not me... judging from his profile, he seems interested in other people... even the casual reader of my posts realizes that i am totally absorbed in myself and unable to respond to other people... thanks again, you had one of me worried for a minute...
I think your 30-year-old Dutch counterpart is pretty self-absorbed, too :). We'll know if it's actually one of your personalities if you're ever seen arriving at a hot Manhattan singles club in a European sports car with a bumper sticker that says "my other car is an R-9."
Now, if you'll excuse me, I have to have a talk with the me who can't type HTML properly.
heypaul: Once again you've come through with a good dose of brevity and humor. It was badly needed as tempers were starting to boil, and BMT Doug was telling me to take my pills. Good show.
sea beach fred said:"heypaul: Once again you've come through with a good dose of brevity and humor. It was badly needed as tempers were starting to boil, and BMT Doug was telling me to take my pills. Good show. "
thanks fred... have i ever failed to bring subtalkers a needed measure of sanity?
Never failed as far as I know. We need a few guys like you on this line to keep the rest of us honest. Isn't it amazing how all sorts of flamage and feuds start breaking out all over Subtalk?
Just like the non-Subtalk world.
It s not Fred s Sanity. it is his Altizmers. He thinks Reagan wa the 2nd comming,
i was wondering what the mta will do when the v and w lines are created, i was too young/oblivious the last time any major changes happened so i don't know how they go about changing signs. i notice that a lot of platform signs simply have large stickers over them but the signs outside the station and i'm sure many on the platform are taken down all together and replaced. i was wondering what they do with the discarded signs that are still in good shape and if there was any way i could get my grubby little fingers on them. any info would be greatly appreciated, thanks.
later,
tim
Some of them might just wind up at that junk dealer's that sits at the North West corner of Atlantic Avenue and Bond Street.
wayne
Several old signs have made their way to another junk dealer, the northwest corner of Bowery and East Houston Street.
I guess junk dealers in general are a good place to check :). Also, maybe ask at the Transit Museum??
i assume the w will be yellow and the v will be orange and the q will go back to yellow, just wondering. i'm sure this question has been asked so forgive me if it has but what trains will be used for the v and w since i don't recall hearing of any rollsigns having a w.
thanks,
tim
> i don't recall hearing of any rollsigns having a w.
I've actually seen a W on a side destination sign. It was black on a yellow diamond. It was on an R-42 car. It was upside-down when I saw it, so whoever put it there must have thought it was an M!
- Lyle Goldman
I've seen the same thing, only on an R-40 Slant, and it was on the N train.
R40 Slants definitely have a W, because I've seen it whenever I get a Slant on the N. I also recall seeing a W on an R68, as well as a V. But yes, the V is orange and the W is yellow and the Q will go back to yellow because it will return to its old home on the Broadway BMT.
One news story had the V as blue, which makes no sense since it will be on 6th ave (orange) not 8th (blue).
Actually, the one time I saw a "v" rollsign it was mistakenly on a B or D train (which my F was passing) and it was blue. Obviously that dosen't make any sense.
:-)Andrew
That was an upside-down A.
-Hank
Hmm. Could be. I only got a glimpse.
:)Andrew
According to FOX 5, the W sign will be like the R. I have taken the liberty to create something like it.
But can anyone explain this strange R sign I spotted a few weeks ago?
-Dan
nyrail.cjb.net is currently down and is being moved to trainweb.org. I'll inform y'all of its re-emergence.
I've said before that it probably was put the rollsigns in case they ever got a wild hare to reinstitute Chambers Street Specials. It's also possible they may have been providing for some kind of special rush hour service out of Astoria before the N/R terminal switch. And, lastly, maybe they just put it on when they did the rollsigns for no planned/foreseen reason other than to just make sure that the routes would have both regular and rush hour signings. I did see a diamond E and F a couple of times on non-lead cars back then on pre-GOH slants and 42s when they ran on the B. I never found out any particular reason for their existence, and just assumed it was for future flexibility.
The diamond F was used to denote the trains which ran express between Kings Highway and 18th Ave. back before this service was eliminted, sometime in 1987.
when the R ran in 2 sections the brown diamond was the brooklyn to lower manhattan 1/2 of the line
I don't recall the R running in two sections. Before the M train moved to the West End line, the R had specials up the Nassau St line to Chambers, and this is what the brown diamond R was for.
-Hank
That's the old Nassau St. special R line. It only ran as a brown line for 6 months until it's elimination in 11/87. Until then, it shared the same color as the R/RR did (first green, then yellow). It terminated at Chambers St., at least on the map, but most of these special trains ran to Metropolitan Ave. or Eastern Pkwy.
Question, when you took this picture, it looked like you used a flash. Did the conductor get mad at you for doing it? When I take pictures, I try to use the flash as little as possible, mainly becuase I don't even know if it's legal, but also because I don't want people to get pissed off.
well, as you can see, the conductor was turned around. I was not shooting through a window so no one's face got in my photo. No one seemed to mind at all.
R-32s and 38s have a yellow W.
Peace,
ANDEE
The R32/38/40/42's and R68A's all have front and side "W" signs. The R44/46 have front W signs and programmable side W electronic signs. I'm not sure about the R68. The R68's for the most part still have their original 1986 signs, with no W and only a diamond Q.
I think the R68's all need new rollsigns.
Hey people- I'm a new user on this board (my first post), and I love the level of interest in NYC subways expressed here- I thought that I was one of very few MTA subway enthusiasts.
Could someone please summarize (because I obviously missed the original posting/announcement), what the routes will be for the new "V" and "W" trains? I'm sort of surmised that the "F" is going thru the 63rd Street tunnel, and bypassing Queens Plaza; the "G" is terminating at Court Square, and "V" will run the Queens Blvd line local from 71st/Continental, replacing the "G", and running thru the 53rd St tunnel and down the "F" local 6th Avenue line. And I'm guessing that the "W" will run the "N" express line in Queens and down the Broadway Express line to Whitehall St during rush-hours only.
What happens to the "Q" and "B"? Only 1 express train at Queens Plaza? - the "E" will be jammed and changing trains at 74th/Roosevelt will be a nightmare! Please provide more details, please...
Any news on the Second Avenue line or the "7" train extension to Javits Center?
The W will be like the yellow B of 1986-1988, running from Ditmars Blvd, Astoria along N over the Manhattan Bridge to West End. E,R,V will still stop at Queens Blvd. 2 Qs will run from 57th/7th over Manhattan Bridge to Brighton, diamond Q as Brighton express, circle Q as Brighton local. B will consist of the current portion from 34th/6th up. The number of passengers squeezing onto the E,F,R by Queens Blvd today will be compensated by the 4 lines to Manhattan... it's supposed to ease overcrowding. (keyword: "supposed")
What I hope the TA will do some time after the F starts running through 63rd is to switch the F back to 53rd and route the V to 63rd... and have F run to 63rd during eves & weekends.
Nothing new on 2nd Ave & Javits..... check out other sections of this site on these items.
the article is here:
http://www.nytimes.com/2000/12/05/nyregion/05TUNN.html
I agree wholeheartedly with this columnist. W sucks.. why should the average new yorker, who is in such a hurry, have to spend the time uttering a train name that contains a whole THREE syllables. V is obvisouly easy to say, but i think we should let a system like moscow keep the V, I dont want it. Let them use all the V's they want, I want nothing to do with them. Fin.
There's another "three syllable train" on the NYC system: The "one-and-nine."
everyone i know, including my self, just says, one or nine or simply one-nine.. so two syllables
I've heard "one'n'nine" quite frequently.
And "J'n'Z" too.
Hoping some congestion is alleviated.
Vision Of Less Crowding
Peace,
ANDEE
Similar article in the Times
The Times article says "...changes were "operational requirements" necessary to keep all lines running while the Manhattan Bridge construction work, which is now focused on the two sets of tracks on its north side, shifts to the two sets of tracks on its south side."
Don't they have that backwards? Right now it's the south side tracks that are closed. The construction will be shifting to the north side.
No, the times has it right, for the Times. Whatever direction they look in becomes north. If they look at the Manhattan Bridge from their ivory tower, the north side tracks are closed.
-Hank
Why the R62?The Broadway line tracks were last in use in 1990, not 1988.
Actually they were used in 1995 when the Manny B was closed completely middays and weekends.
They'reused on a daiy basis for short turns, bypasses, and other things. There's just no regular service scheduled.
-Hank
Understood. But the 1995 reroutes were scheduled services, which lasted almost 7 months.
The article was referring to the Broadway bridge tracks, not the express tracks. Obviously the bridge tracks weren't in use when the entire bridge was closed. And the express tracks were also used when the Queensbridge shuttle was running.
What the DAILY NEWS article seems to conveniently overlook is that the 'F' would be diverted to 63rd Street. As a result, the horribly overcrowded 53rd Street corridor would have one Queens Boulevard express ('E') and one local ('V') service instead of the two express services as has been the past sixty years.
I thought the 63rd Street connection was originally supposed to be for Queens Boulevard local service, leaving the 'F' on its original routing. Both Lexington/53 and 5/53 are located in areas of tremendous office buildings. The way the plan is now, 'F' riders will be diverted away from this area, although it will still serve Rockefeller Center, another huge employment center.
A lot of these happy people interviewed won't be so happy when they come down into Lex/53 or 5/53 after work to see packed Queens-bound 'E' trains and relatively empty 'V' trains. Those who go to Briarwood or out Hillside Avenue will have to get the 'F' at Roosevelt or Kew Gardens.
Then there's the lack of a transfer at 63/Lex. You can imagine the morning chaos at Queens stations with people trying to figure out if this train will connect to the '6'.
The TA wants to show off it's $645 million connector, and more people will see it with the F running. Besides, people will stich to what's familiar, and if the V ran via 63rd. St, nobody will use it.
Stupid reasons to create a bottleneck at 36th St, but that's TA logic for you.
The controversy over how to use this new asset (and it is a real asset) points to the importance of attending the public hearing or hearings which will be held in the spring of '01.
There will be opportunities there to present concerns. While the TA is as bureaucratic and stuffy as they come, if particular aspects of the plan are clearly not wanted, MTA will change it. Witness their cancellation of IRT 2 and 5 train rerouting in the Bronx in theface of clear public opposition. There are other examples.
Show up, write responses and send a copy to your councilman and state assemblyperson or senator (and the Queens Borough President). There are some great ideas on this chat area. Don't reserve them for nycsubway.org - pass them out to the pols!
As information, the Queens Borough President's Office is at 120-55 Queens Blvd, Kew Gardens NY 11420. Dan Andrews is in charge of the press office...
They should have built a transfer to the 59th street station. That way riders could connect to 4,5,and 6 trains as well as the N and R.
It is a shame that the 63rd tunnel actually wasn't built somewhere between 66th-68th, so that it would've had a connection to the 6. I still think many Queens residents will use this train to get to Hunter College, the Hospitals, and wherever else they work on the Upper East Side. You would not believe how many people transfer at 51st or 59th, and take the 6 to 68th. Now they may just take the 63rd tunnel, and walk a few blocks.
That would have been useful. However, since the original intention was to have the 63rd St. trains emerge onto expanded LIRR ROW south of Queens Blvd., building the tunnel at 68th St would have complicated matters...
In addition to the Daily News article from the Queens perspective that ANDEE posted this morning, the Daily News has another article from the Brooklyn point of view.
Damn Crybabies.
I especially liked the person who feared losing her hard fought seating to have to transfer at 34th Street.
OH MY GOD! I'm going to have to stand for 2 stops!
And since the B and D will originate at 34 St, she'll still get a seat if she's fast enough.
My feelings exactly.
amen Pork
amen Pork most of them probably sit 8 hours a day at work
Riders are clueless. The same sentiments were expressed when the B and D were put back on 6th Ave. 12 years ago (was it THAT long ago? I'm getting long in the tooth!).
They'll adjust. People who need direct service to Union and Times Squares will even benefit from the plan. Brooklyn IRT riders will revel in the lower numbers of people x-ferring to the 2/3/4/5 at Atlantic Ave.
And somehow the people of Chinatown are left out. The bridge flip will affect them the most.
No it doesn't. They have plenty of other stops nearby. E Broadway, Delancey on F, The bunch of Nassau st Subway stations, Canal st. (don't have to walk on Canal to get there, use side streets). Most of the people on East Side have to walk more to get to a Subway stop. Also M15 is quite frequent.
Arti
Or walk a block!
Besides, I'm not sure what they want. Of course all the Brooklyn BMT lines will be running on Broadway -- the Chrystie Street connection will be closed, so Broadway is the only place they can go (unless they'd prefer Nassau Street). Yeah, for some of them it will be a pain, but there's nothing the TA can do about that.
I can t believe how lazy people are that work in Rockafeller Center. 1 block will kill them to walk from 7th Ave to 6th Ave, or 2 blocks to 5th. How long would that take 3-6 minutes. They probably kill that much time waiting to transfer trains the way it is now. 4 50 years Broadway was the Trunk Line, and for 2 -3 years they have to be incovienced. To d-mn bad. The exercise would do them good.
W Complaints already,
Let The WWWhining Begin
Peace,
ANDEE
["You're putting Bay Ridge, Bensonhurst, Borough Park, everyone up to Brighton Beach on the same Broadway line," said state Sen. Vincent Gentile (D-Bensonhurst). "You'll have congestion and delays that you can't even imagine."]
Seems to me that this is exactly the way things were prior to the Christie St. connection. I don't recall seeing any unimaginable delays back then. Sure, there will be a few days of confusion, but after a while things should settle down.
I was going to copy & paste this exact line as my nomination for quote of the day! Seems like Sen. Gentile isn't too familiar with the way the system works.
Would anyone know why the NYC and MTA did not install new switches on the Manhattan Bridge BMT tracks in anticipation of repair work being finished? Had that been done, all this rerouting might have been unnecessary. The trains could move over to the BMT side and then back.
Also, there are still 7-8 months prior to the switchover. Isn't there still time now to install the needed switches?
Is that physically impossible? Is the problem with this on the Brooklyn side or the Manhattan side?
I realize this must seem like a very ignorant question - but if one of you provides a good answer, I will no longer be ignorant.
[Would anyone know why the NYC and MTA did not install new switches on the Manhattan Bridge BMT tracks in anticipation of repair work being finished?]
It would cost waaay too much. You'd have to build a new tunnel for the connection.
[Also, there are still 7-8 months prior to the switchover. Isn't there still time now to install the needed switches?]
You also have to take into account the time it would take to actually build the tunnel. At the rate they're building tunnels, this tunnel would take about 12 to 24 months to complete.
[Is the problem with this on the Brooklyn side or the Manhattan side?]
Manhattan Side. The Brooklyn side has access to both sides of the bridge, north of DeKalb Avenue.
Thanks very much.
Yet another item to add to the MTA Capital Plan wish list...
Can't be done, the lower deck roadway is in the way. Building a tunnel would require a rather large jughandle as well.
-Hank
Thank you for your helpful reply. Also, please describe a jug handle. I think I know what you're talking about, but I'd like a precise definition in the context of this discussion.
Ever drive in New Jersey? On many major thouroughfares, you can't make a left turn. Instead, you take a right before the intersection, go around a loop, and end up on the cross street where you would have made the left.
-Hank
Each of those jug handles has an "All turns" sign before it. It's really not a bad idea, once you get used to it, and sure beats traffic circles. I remember those all too well from my days in Jersey.
Thanks guys. Now I can visualize it. (Perhaps morning commuters not having had their morning shot of caffeine would think more of a coffee cup handle...)
Trains are more important than cars. Close the lower roadway and it shall be done!
The Manhattan Bridge is the only HazMat and high clearance bridge into Manhattan outside of the GWB and the Triborough.
Vehicles carrying hazardous materials cannot use tunnels since the Holland Tunnel explosion many years back, and vehicles higher than 12'2" (I think) cannot fit into the Battery or Midtown Tunnels.
while i am sure there are technical and financial reasons that would make installing the switches a problem, i suspect the real reason is the people in power are railfans and delight in using new route letters, needing new maps, and they will all be out in force on the first days of the changeover delighting in the confused passengers who they secretly despise... they will all get a tremendous rush in knowing what's going on while the masses don't have a clue...
Such a plan was considered. In the plan posed by Mr. Fred Beck in 1957, a double diamond X-over would be built at each tower of the bridge. In this way, a train on the A/B tracks could cross over the auto section of the bridge to the H tracks (or vice versa) at either tower. Both double X-Overs would be protected by grade crossing signals in the roadway. In this way, trains could operate around construction zones on either side. Thanks to one of Mario Proccachino's advisors, the plan was never acted upon. If we had only known.
You are very brave to propose this. I would support it. And this plan is "do-able" in 6-8 months.
Would you consider contacting govt. and MTA about it. Certainly after the bridge is completely repaired (2004) the grade crossing would be unnecessary and could be dismantled (or at least the crossing gates taken down).
Unfortunately though, cars have too many rights as it is. The powers that be will never allow the lower roadway to be closed by a grade crossing.
It would be better if the lower roadway were to be closed entirely, OR a more permanent solution.
Why not move tracks to the center and cars to the sides? Oh we already spend millions on a new south side.
The Manhattan bridge is just another example of stupid planning.
Instead of the DOT putting so much $$ into road projects, they should have either put money into putting a switch between A/B and H tracks, or plan to build a tunnel. But we just can't "get it done" because a small group of rich, powerful people always get in the way.
(so move them out, if they don't shut up whack 'em to they bleed!)
Four tracks won't fit in the space of three lanes. Nice try, though.
Doesn't look like there is a dire need for 4 tracks anyway. If putting 2 tracks in the middle could speed up the service across the bridge that alone would increase the capacity.
Arti
If service will run to both Broadway and Sixth Avenue, all four tracks are necessary to avoid a major bottleneck.
Simply removing the lower roadway from the bridge would solve the problem. The bridge has four cables, one each on the inside and the outside of the outer deck sections. The lower roadway connects the two. By removing it, you have essentially two independant bridges, which WON'T twist from heavier traffic on one side.
-Hank
What if you added a set of cables to support the center roadway, and then disconnected the roadway from the sides? Couldn't you accomplish the same thing without actually removing the roadway?
I don't know if that's possible. But like I said, the easiest way to fix it would be to remove the 'lever' section.
-Hank
Your date or villain is wrong. The NYC comptroller in 1957 was Lawrence Gerosa. He was followed by Beame in 1962, Proccachino in 1966, Beame in 1970, Goldin in 1974, Holtzman in 1986 and Hevasi in 1994.
As to the merits of a crossover - the TA had a partial chance in 1967 and blew it. The could have implemented a grade level merge for the north side tracks under Canal St. when Chrystie went went into effect. Such a merge would have permitted 6th and Bway trains to simultaneously use the north side. It would have at least permitted Bway express service during non-rush hours for the present crisis and some emergency rerouting.
As to the plan for putting X-over's at each tower on the Manhattan Bridge. Was that plan hatched on 1 April 1957? The expansion joints are at the towers. There is no way lateral integrity for such tracks could have been guaranteed at that point. A crossover would have been possible before the towers on the side spans or after the towers on the center span but not at the towers themselves.
I put such a plan on a par with the TA study for restoring operations after an atomic bomb attack. Did Mr. Beck suffer the same fate as the consultant for that plan?
[It would have at least permitted Bway express service during non-rush hours for the present crisis and some emergency rerouting. ]
The tunnel should still be there, so it could be implemented.
Arti
Except for the sharp, superelevated 90 degree turn from the Bridge to Grand St.
-Hank
That old connecting tunnel from the north side of the bridge to the Canal St. bridge station is still there, although I understand the grade was altered when the tracks were tied into Chrystie St. Otherwise, such a grade level connection could be done now.
Do you have a list of all 107 mayors of New York City?
Wouldn't the frequency of the trains keep the gates closed virtually all the time?
Arti
Here's my own idea of what should happen in 2001 when the 63rd Street Extension opens and the Manhattan Bridge Flip. Service remains unchanged except for the following lines:
All trains will run from 207th Street via 8th Avenue/CPW Express to Far Rockaway. There will be no service on this line to Lefferts Boulevard.
Trains on this line will run from 145th Street via CPW Local, 6 Av Express, Fulton St. Local to Lefferts Blvd. During rush hours, trains would be extended to Bedford Park Blvd via Grand Concourse Local.
Trains on this line will run from 168th Street via CPW/8 Av Local to World Trade Center.
Trains on this line will run from 205 Street via CPW/6 Av/Fulton St Express to Rockaway Park (Beach 116 St). This would eliminate the need for the Rockaway Park Shuttle. During the rush hours, trains on this line run express on the Grand Concourse in the peak direction.
Trains on this line will run from 179th Street via Hillside Av/Queens Express, 63 Street/6 Av/Culver Local to Coney Island.
Trains on this line will run from Court Square to Church Avenue via Crosstown/Park Slope Local
Trains on this line will run Express from 57th Street/7 Av, Manhattan to 59th Street/4th Avenue, Brooklyn via Manhattan Bridge.
Trains will run from 179th Street via Hillside/Queens Local, Broadway Express, and Brighton Line to Coney Island. Trains alternate between Brighton Local () and Express ()
Trains will run from 71-Continental via Queens Local/53 St/6 Av Local/Culver Express to Coney Island. Trains will run express south of Smith-9 Streets, and run local in reverse-peak direction south of Church Avenue. Express trains will stop at 7th, Church, and 18th Avenues, Kings Highway, Avenue X, then all stops to Coney Island.
Trains run from Ditmars Boulevard to Coney Island via Broadway local, and West End to Coney Island.
The only problems I see with this are a few bottlenecks in the areas of the following stations:
West 4th Street
Canal Street
Queens Plaza/36th Street
trains would continue to run to Bay Parkway during rush hours.
What do you think?
Add one more bottleneck at Cranberry tunnel.
Arti
Another idea is to run the B Rush Hours only, since the D is there, and add more C trains.
I agree, but upper west side riders will cry like babies. Sixth Ave. service along the CPW local was always a rush hour only thing until recently (late 1988).
Eliminate M service to Manhattan midday. Just run M to Myrtle-Bdwy for J connection. City must watch payroll.
Forget any express service on Broadway in Manhattan. You are dreaming.
Don't add another line to the N right away. Add some extra service, and have a train that makes limited stops on N line in Queens, and terminate at Canal. Train can do Ditmars, 30thAve, Broadway, and 36th, and go right to Queensboro, then the city. Another N could leave Ditmars just one minute after this train leaves, to make all stops. Sounds crazy, but both trains will still be packed, or close to capacity, but should be able to at least get the doors closed by the second try.
Sounds great in theory but with all the switching at W4th there would be serious bottlenecks.6th ave express trains must switch to the local at W4th for access to 8th ave & Vice Versa.
Interesting.
But with all that service to Lefferts and the Rockaways, this sounds like overkill. I doubt there are enough cars to support such an arrangement.
Things will get very clogged between Chambers and Hoyt-Schermerhorn as well.
Oh, and all your images are broken.
Improperly stored construction material caught fire on the outbound third rail between Capitol Heights and Addison Road stations during morning rush hour yesterday. Brief mention in Washington Post.
I heard about this in one of Lisa Baden's traffic reports in which she reported this AND some delays on MARC which aren't really delays since they happen a lot, it's more like unprinted schedule changes. My guess is there was single tracking and some trains turned around at P&R Junction (or whatever it is called).
Do the trains have a destanation sign for Stadium-Armory? I assume they do...
E - 179th to WTC, Exp from Continental/71 to Queens Plaza, 53rd St Tunnel, Hillside and 8th Ave Local
F - 179th to Coney Island, Hillside/Queens Blvd/63rd St "Super" Express, 6th Ave Local
G - Court Sq to Church Ave
R - Unchanged
V - Jamaica Center to Grand St, Queens Blvd/6th Ave/53rd Local
B - 145th or Bedford Park Blvd to 34th via CPW Local
D - 205th to 34th, CPW express
N - Coney Island to Ditmars via Bridge and B'way/4th Ave Express except nights where it is totally local and runs via Montague.
W - Coney Island to 57th Street (Ditmars in rush hours) via West End and Montague, Local (6 AM to 10PM)
Q - Coney Island to 57th via Brighton Local, B'way Express (probably 24/7)
The only problem we have is that the E and Q riders mad, since...
E trains will be extremely crowded as the only Queens Blvd/53rd Express and goes to 179 instead of Jamaica Center (which will be taken over by the V)
Q will lose Brighton Express service, and extending/changing the M to Brighton Beach as a Local (making Q express from 6AM to 10PM) will not help matters, since many D/Q riders want Midtown Manhattan service.
But, there are a few benefits, as...
No Grand Street to Bway/Lafayette S shuttle, since the V will terminate there instead of 2nd Ave.
N and Q expresses restored.
W replaces N as the 2nd B'way local.
This plan might seem non-sensical, but comments are very welcome on this one.
Run the V to 179th via the local and the E to Jamacia Center. F makes express stops east of 71st Avenue when the V runs.
Proposed Queens Blvd subway changes
E- between Jamaica Center and World Trade Center-discontinue stops at Van Wyck/Briarwood and 75th Avenue at all times. Discontinue local stops between Continental Ave and Queens Blvd midnight hours
F- between 179th Street and Coney Island (or Kings Highway-rush hours)
Makes all stops between 179 th Street and 36th Street then via 63rd Street and current route via 6th Ave and Culver at all times.
G- will operate between Court Square and Church Avenue at all times
R- will operate between Continental Ave and 95th St/4th Ave 24 hours per day.
V- will operate between 179th Street and 2nd Ave daily except for midnight hours.
The V Train will follow the current F Line service except will make express stops between 179 th Street and Continental Ave weekdays 7AM to 7 PM. No midnight V Line Service.
For Queens Blvd service to the G -Line schedules to be coordinated mostly off peak between E and R Lines at Queens Plaza
E-SAME F-LOCAL via 53rd St Coney Island-179th Q-EXTEND 179th-via 63rd Express via Bdwy. EXP to Brooklyn. V-Grand to 71st/Continental via Local and 63rd St. New Brighton Local T Mon-Sat 6AM/9P ASTORIA-CONEY ISLAND. N/W EXPRESS TERMINATE 57th St 2 trains via 53 and 2 via 63rd. Broadway 2 Local 3 Exp Peak Hours. Like Pre 67 Christie St.
Issues with the availability of subway cars will be a problem. The R used to run to 179th as local and F as express to 179th several years ago. People complained back then about the R not running frequently enough and seeing those F trains go by. (people always whine, can't satisfy them all)
The F is also a significant main route. Making it local from 179th to 71st, along with the limited supply of trains, will make people along the entire F stations wait even longer. And that includes the local 6th Ave and Lower East Side stops in Manhattan.
Burlington VT (area pop. 150,000) because the 22nd US city to get a commuter rail system, albeit the smallest. The 13 mile line runs from Burlington, Vermont to Charlotte, Vermont and is called the Champlain Flyer. The service was intended to give drivers a second option when the main roadway would be engulfed in a consrtuction project, but now the plans have been ammended to keep the service indefinitly. By April there will be 10 round trips Monday through Friday and each train has 2 cars that each 150 people. There is one intermediate stop in Shelburne, but South Burlington will soon be added to the timetable. Initial service started on Monday with a train packed w/ 250 people and it is run by the Vermont Rail System.
Jeez, if Burlington VT can get commuter rail why not every other city in America?
Right , we'll call it the JFK Express!
avid
Vermont's one of the most liberal and environmental states. The state government fought to keep out Wal-mart. Also, the towns are walkable, so the passengers have somwhere to go once they get off the train. Mississippi is not about to follow its lead.
Accroding to the article I read there have been many attempts to kill the project. The assembly tried to kill it as late as last year and there were NIMBY conserns about noise at crossings.
this was apparently adressed by installing gates at all the grade crossings so the trains wouldnt have to sound their horns.. the question is, if the service is so small, theyre probably not running any trains late at night, so why would people care about noise during the day.. i think thats going a little too far, considering the extra money it took to install gates.. maybe im wrong..
Not sounding the horns at a crossing? I thought the FRA requires that?
this was apparently adressed by installing gates at all the grade crossings so the trains wouldnt have to sound their horns.. the question is, if the service is so small, theyre probably not running any trains late at night, so why would people care about noise during the day.. i think thats going a little too far, considering the extra money it took to install gates..
I heard the Vermont Rail System is also going to do a second line from Burlington to Milton. What kind of cars are used on the commuter line, Budd RDCs?
Didn't The Dallas -Ft. Worth commuter line refurbish about ten of twelve Budds ? Any one have the correct numbers and price tag?
avid
Will the rail line be electrified? If if does get electrified, then it would be beneficial to the enviroment.
Electrified or not its sure as hell better than all those people driving.
Depends on how they generate the electricity.
I know GMRC has ex Metro North RDC #53, nee NYC M-453
What happened on the bridge this morning at about 9:15 or so? My train was backed up and evacuated at Dekalb from the bridge approach. The announcements said variously sick passenger, injured passenger on the bridge, police activity. Sounds like someone tried to jump from a moving train.
Nothing on the bridge itself.
A boy fell off of a train.
I came to Sheepshead Bay this morning only to have to leave and go to the F train. After I had wasted my time trying to find a parking spot, I had to find another near Avenue X.
A child fell from a Q train to the tracks while trying to move between cars just north of Dekalb. Bottled up everything going thru Dekalb. I'm glad I put of my railfanning trip till tomorrow. Did the boy survive?
If anyone sees a 6'3 grown man wearing glasses with his faced pressed firmly against the railfan window of an R40 Q train rushing down the Brighton line can feel free to assume it's me and to introduce himself....lol
The boy did not from what News Radio 880 said. They also said the boy was leaning against the door when it swung open as the train was switching and he was thrown out. I would bet that it happened at the "B" end of the car. That's a dangerous place, the "B" end of a Slant, always has been.
wayne
Sad story. Watch the TA over-react by having all R40 slants lock their storm doors, like the 75' cars.
Obviously, that cannot happen. Locking the storm doors without an electric 'unlock' circuit would be a real danger in an emergency.
Question: On the old standards, and/or the AB cars- I recall those doorsa were locked -did they have an electric unlock
I thought they were open on the Standards - or am I thinking of the R-1/9?
Locked on the BMT standards; unlocked on the R-1/9s.
The BMT standards did have powered storm doors. This is an educated guess, but I would say they were electro-pneumatic powered, as were the side doors. Their controls were on the button consoles in the wide space between the center doors. IIRC, the storm doors had separate controls at the ends of the cars as well, underneath the single seats against the end bulkheads. Perhaps one of our BMT veterans can elaborate or clarify.
You're right, I never thought of that.
Watch 'em do it anyway.
Isn't the slanted end the A end? Just curious.
Yes, the slanted end is the "A" end, which is protected by a large array of hardware, albeit a small child could conceivably fall underneath the bars. It's the "B" end which is utterly unprotected except for a wrapped chain. There aren't any grab handles out there either like there are on all the other 60-foot cars. I NEVER cross between "B" ends of an R40 (either kind) while the train's moving.
wayne
Thanks. I personally don't particularly like to cross between cars when a train is moving to begin with (although you've seen me do it), and that tragedy underscores that reasoning.
BTW, I'm finally starting to get my photos from our expedition developed. Can't wait to see how that pic you took of me at Flushing Meadow Park turns out.
There was a tragic accident on the Q train. A 3 year old kid "fell" out of the train. I just heard it on the news. Apparently the kid fell out of his seat when the train jolted as it hit the switch after Dekalb (they showed it on the news, the switch for A/B or H tracks), the storm door flew open and the kid fell out onto the tracks and was killed.
A tragic, freak accident. The news is already at it blaming the safety of Slant R40 trains. So should they leave the doors open?
I think so, but perhaps they should not open so easily, I've never seen the doors on the LIRR open like that.
That explanation doesn't seem quite right. The door opens towards the seat, not away from it. If the child were rolling away from the seat, the door would be sliding shut as well. Even if the kid had been in a seat on the opposite side, there is still not enough time for the kid to gain sufficient momentum to just roll out the door without any possibility of someone being able to intervene. It seems to me that the kid was playing with the door, it opened, the train jerked and kid lost his footing. The slants aren't known for having the smoothest ride, but even pre-GOH, I've never experienced or heard of a ride so rough it was knocking seated passengers to the floor.
Here’s the Daily News story.
Here's the Times' story.
On Page 6 of today's NEWS, along with coverage of the story, there's a series of photos outlining the sequence of events. Unfortunately, the middle picture is of an R68- you can glimpse a bucket seat and the vertical ribbing on the walls. Of course, the doors between R68 cars are kept locked. The bottom photo clearly and correctly shows the area between two Slants.
The Slant involved in the accident was put out of service and taken to Coney Island yard for investigation, so the photographers probably used the next train they could find to take pictures of that area of the interior where the boy was standing.
But then, most subway riders wouldn't notice the difference.
One of the papers (I don't remember which) has a picture of a Redbird storm door.
After Jamaica Center, where do the tunnels go? I've read here often that there is NO switchover between the "J" and the "E". They are on different levels.
Does or was one planned to turn under the LIRR tracks and had south and eventually pop up and out and run next to or on the Montauk branch?
How long are current tunnels after Jamaica Center? Are they used for storage during inclement weather? Are tracks laid?
avid
There is no physical track connection between the two levels at Jamaica Center. The upper level (E) tracks turn south beyond the station and extend some 3000 feet to bumper posts. This part was supposed to continue to Rosedale along LIRR ROW. The lower level (J/Z) tracks extend straight ahead past the station and deadend past a scissor switch, IIRC. That portion was supposed to continue on to Hollis.
Are the 3000 ft of tunnel used to store rolling stock? Store anything?
thats about six full trains with room left over . I hope its used.
avid
It is. As many as 8 E trains are laid up east of Jamaica Center at night.
3000 ft is really long, you could add two or three stations in that tunnel.
It's not even 3/4 of a mile.
-Hank
Right, enough for one more IND station (½ mile seems to be the typical distance between local stops on Queens Blvd), or three IRT-type stations (basically every ¼ mile)
The 1968 plan for the full Archer Ave. line didn't call for any expansion of the J line past it's current terminus. Also, I believe there is no switch east of the J platform at Jamaica Center. AAMOF, you can't fit a full train from the edge of the platform to the bumper blocks. The 2 trains which can be laid up are partially inside the station.
What does AAMOF stand for ?
As a matter of fact...
I tend to use a lot of usenet abbreviations on this board. Sorry for any confusion.
The J line tracks(J1 and J2 tracks) on the lower level only extend for one train length up until the bumper blocks. Each track fully holds one J train without any part of the train remaining inside station limits.
The E line tracks(D1A and D2A tracks) on the lower level extend out to around 165th Street with one emergency exit between 164th and 165th Streets. These tracks have a medium S curve, a 5 mph speed limit and have a downgrade at the blocks. Each E track holds 3 layups each for a total of 6 layups.
There are no switches on either the E or J tracks, they never meet and both are used for layups 7 days a week.
The E line tracks are on the upper level.
[The E line tracks(D1A and D2A tracks) on the lower level extend out to around 165th Street ]
Is it 165 and Archer?
Arti
Archer Ave. becomes 89th Ave. just east of Parsons. I believe the tracks follow 89th ...
I thought Archer was 93rd Ave. I believe 89th Ave is north of Jamaica Ave.
:-)Andrew
...And could they put a station within this ROW?
:-)Andrew
IMHO they could add at least one station on the E line beyond Parsons/Archer, if not two.
HELP: I'm looking for someone to talk to about the door latches on the
R40 subway car. Please call me at 718-575-2559 or page me at
917-427-0526. I'm trying to interview an expert or enthusiast who has knowledge regarding the operation of the doors at the end of the R40, nomenclature for the latch and its
parts, diagrams, anything.
Thanks,
Dan Morrison
NEWSDAY
Try going on the section of this website that talks about the slants, AKA R40.
I was in Philadelphia from '89-93 and was coming down the stairwell of the Broad St line's City Hall station. The stairs were crowded with people and a local train was getting ready to pull out. A tall, thin man leapt past me, landed on the platform and leapt between the cars. He lost his footing just as the train was pulling out into a sharp curve, and he barely hung on, his legs dangling down towards the trackbed. I raced over to use the SEPTA police intercom and asked the operator to alert the motorman.
It did bother me a little that no one else on that platform moved a muscle to help him or showed any concern. In NY, I've had the experience of coming to someone's aid and a lot of other people helped me cheerfully.
I got on the next local, and since service was normal, I assume this man was not injured. Wherever he was going, he was in an incredible hurry.
"It did bother me a little that no one else on that platform moved a muscle to help him or showed any concern. In NY, I've had the experience of coming to someone's aid and a lot of other people helped me cheerfully."
It really bothers me too when people act like "I don't want to be involved" sort of attitude even if someone else's life depend on it.
the child's death on the train this morning is a horrible tragedy... i haven't the words to speak to the mother's pain and loss...
Heard on the news they were chinese and their destination was Grand street, one stop away.
The news was at Grand street, where their destination was. No wonder I saw some cameras around there this afternoon.
I spotted the cameras too on the southbound platform at the conductor's position after six. My conductor later commented that they were there for his good looks.
The WB11 Morning News was at DeKalb this morning.\
running on...
Yes, they were Chinese...
http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/nyregion/AP-BRF-Subway-Death.html
Things like this make me scratch my head and ask "Why?"...
Nick
WHAT WAS A 3 YEAR OLD CHILD DOING NEAR THAT END DOOR IN THE FIRST PLACE?????????? PEOPLE DON'T THINK UNTIL IT'S TOO LATE.
zman, this may be true, but doors on subway cars shouldn't be flying open unless you grab the door's handle and pull on it.
Didn't the slant 40's return from their GOH without the storm doors latching properly?
As a kid I recall that the slant 40's storm doors latched quite well (i.e., you had to grab the door handle and pull it to the left to open the door).
I don't know if Slants suffer an inordinate number of non-latching storm doors - I've ridden on an awful lot of "L" and "Q" trains over the course of the last couple of years - I haven't seen much in the way of swinging "B" end doors. I would also guess that if this problem existed it would also be noticeable on the R40M cars as well, as these have the exact same "B" ends as the Slants do. Where do I see non-latching/swinging doors? Mostly on the Redbirds!
My guess is that a contributing factor in this accident was a defective door latch ON THAT CAR ONLY - and likely somebody walked through the car before the accident happened. Didn't the accident happen in the C/R's position, at least that's what I heard...
wayne
Wayne, you're probably more on the mark here, than I am (we hope).
One of the things I might do -- on one of my vacation days during the Xmas holiday -- is ride the Canarsie and J/Z lines and just check and see the amount of non-latching storm doors of the slant R-40/40M/42s to see if my theory holds any validity or as you point out it is just a rare occurance.
BMTman
Do this: the "L" line is full of curves: check for swinging doors at the following locations:
1) canarsie-bound entering LORIMER STREET station
2) canarsie-bound between MONTROSE AVENUE and MORGAN AVENUE stations
3) Both Ways between HALSEY STREET and WILSON AVENUE stations
4) manhattan-bound leaving JEFFERSON STREET station
5) manhattan-bound between BUSHWICK-ABERDEEN and WILSON AVENUE station
6) manhattan-bound approaching BROADWAY JUNCTION.
wayne
I remember one particular train on the Canarsie line all those years ago which had a swinging storm door on the car I was in. This storm door kept swinging back and forth, back and forth, all the way through the 14th St. tunnel. Can't remember if this was a train of BMT standards or R-7/9s.
R-40 storm doors latch very well up to this day. all storm doors on all model trains in the system latch. the only reason some don't latch is if the lock isn't is jammed or stuck or the door just won't close because of something in the door well causing difficulty. met a couple of them on R-62's and many more on R-28 redbirds.
I had the opposite problem today. I was walking through the train from the C/R position to the railfan window on a R40M/R42 mixed M train. Between the first and second car the storm door was jammed shut and I couldn't open it. I just settled for not having the railfan window today instead of running around at the next station :)
Shawn.
it is a horror to have your child fall out of a subway train, no matter what the cause or explanation...
As a child , and watch todays children, I notice they gravitate towards windows. To look out and see whats out in that magical underworld. They will climb on seats , flatten their little noses, just to catch a glimps of a light blub as it passes by in a blur. Perhaps the Mom just thought this was a safe place away from the side doors?
Its a terrible tragic lose. The scars from this hurt will be tender for this sad mothers life.
B E W E A R O F U N L O C K E D D O O R S !
Hold your childs Hand.
avid
okay, can someone tell me what happened to the kid?
(im not stupid, i just didn't pay attention to the news.)
He was killed.
Here's my transit-related quote of the day, from the NY Post article about the Q fatal accident...
"According to Wu, Mei said that when the door opened, she couldn't grab Austin before he fell because her way was blocked by passengers aboard the crowded train."
So, there were passengers who stood in between the mother and her child???
Why is the rail adhesion gar labelled with a "Y" in the front? Does it stnd for 'yard' or something? This does not seem to be but there shoulden't be a "line" designation at all on work cars.
-Dan
That sign has no meaning. It's just there.
I have to agree with the zman.
It just happens that the sign was set on that letter. Or prehaps it was put there simply because "Y" is a letter not yet assigned to a line in revenue service.
BMTman
About 3 weeks ago on my trip from Coney Island I was transferring from B to N at Pacific to go to WTC. And guess what? On express track pulls in revenue N train, but in front of it digital sign is showing "Y". I wish i had my camera with me.
The front digital signs can show any letter !!
Heck, it can show numbers! (digits 0-9)
And they would be as impossible to see as the letters in the digital end-signs on the R-32. IMHO, the digital end-signs were a poor decision in the rehabbing of the R-32s. When waiting for trains on the Broadway BMT, if an R-32 pulls in, you can't tell until the train is right up on you whether it's an 'N' or an 'R'. And I have 20/20 vision w/ my contacts. Perhaps it's the dirt on the end-sign, but more likely I think it's the small size of the sign and the small size of the pixels and the dull yellow coloring. I'm not sure, having only ridden the R-142A once, but this same problem might occur with them. All the end signs will be red LED displays, and rather small relative to the whole of the front of the car.
[IMHO, the digital end-signs were a poor decision in the rehabbing of the R-32s]
I somewhat agree. They should have put LED's there instead of flip-dots. It wouldn't hurt to put a destination display there, too.
[All the end signs will be red LED displays, and rather small relative to the whole of the front of the car.]
The thing with this is that the number could be clearly read from a distance, so I don't think there would be a problem if Transit washes the cars every so often.
Why couldn't the have put a huge flip-dot or LED where the current signs are on the R40/42/46/62/68's etc ?
With LED's you see them from a good distance away !!
That is strange.
Although it could be used for the 2nd Avenue Line. The Y train, as in "Y isn't it here yet?" or "Y is it taking so long (71 years so far, from the planning stages to today) to build?"
Why ask Y? Maybe it stands for Yard.:-)
Last week I passed by the SBK yard in Brooklyn and found these blue NYCT cars waiting to be scrapped. What are they and wht did they do?
-Dan
DWF, I've also seen the same cars down at the SBK yard. Near as I can gather they are a pair of generator cars used in conjunction with the emergency pumping equipment.
However, judging by the look of them I'd hazard a guess that they date back to pre-unification days (probably BMT equipment -- the pair is certainly sized for the B-Division).
BMTman
Where is the SBK yard located? I know in Brooklyn, but where exactly...
Thanks
39th Street and 2nd Ave. It is in the Bush Terminal waterfront area of the Sunset Park section of Brooklyn.
There is an exit for 39th Street off of the Gowanus Expressway (southbound).
I am giving a tour of the railroad routes in that area on Sunday, including the SBK yard (see upcoming events).
BMTman
A friend in NYCT has just called me to say that the blue cars sitting out in the SBK yard are a pair of Moblie Rail Welding Cars that were in use primarily on the Brighton Line. He even recalled seeing them at Newkirk Ave. amid a shower of sparks while rail was being welded there in the late 70's.
He says that the cars were also in use during the 80's on the Sea Beach Line when the middle (Express) tracks were being used for rail-fabrication (before Linden Shops was in full swing).
BMTman
Pigs and I are just about to finish our big NYC Subway entire system trip and we hit a little snag. We are going to end up having to transfer from the L at Liviona to Junius St. on the 3 sometime from 4-8 in the morning. Pigs said that this is a bad neighborhood and it would not recomend such a move at night. Can any of you subtalkers shed some light on when it is safe to make this connection and are there any way to make the connection possible whne it is not safe?
The manhattan bound platform at Livonia on the L is closed. That's the only problem I can see. It's a short walk from Junius to the Livonia station. You have to walk over an overpass. If you plan on taking the L toward Manhattan, you should get on the Rockaway Parkway bound L at Livonia and take that to Rockaway Parkway for a little sight seeing over there. You can catch the Manhattan bound L directly across the platform.
I would assume that my little problem at Livonia was due to the fact that I was by myself and a teenager. As long as you guys are travelling together than I don't see any problem with transferring there at any time. I'm convinced me that the area isn't as bad as I thought and that I just ran into some bad luck.
SubBus probably has the most insight on the area, give him an e-mail.
Shawn.
It is strongly suggested that you make the transfer during the daytime hours.
Prudence is always a good thing.
Please note, however, that, statistically, the subway tends to be safer than the neighborhood it's in. So you're more likely to be assaulted on the street. Also, past NYPD and MTA stats have shown, in general, 1 felony per day somewhere on the system. That means that you are not likely to be the victim of a crime on the subway, though at least one person in 7 million will be on a particular day.
I've made the transfer myself, albeit over six years ago. The neighborhood is very bad. However, it is a short walk. Only do this after sunrise, and proceed on that overpass directly to the station. Don't hang around. Good luck.
In my previous post, I ignored the fact that the intent was to leave the station and walk to another station thru the neighborhood. Also, the odds I stated should have been 1/4 million, not 1/7 million.
I don't think this tour would be eligible for Guinness Book consideration. You have to stay on the subway or within fare-control for that.
We're setting a completely new record. The simple plain travel over every route mile of the NYC subway and SIRR and SIF using whatever means possible record. This way it can be more of an action packed adventure like in the movie Run Lola Run. Our goal is to finish in under 24 hours
The Guinness record was 29 hours 47 minutes (set just after the Archer Av extension opened).
Its 22 and change, not 29.
And that was without leaving the fare control area, wasn't it? A change at Livonia would mean going out of fare control, wouldn't it.
Yes, we leave fare control several times. We have even worked out bus trips. One atlernate plan is to catch a bus from Rockaway Pwky. to somewhere on the 3.
Newspapers got it wrong, then...
Our record will be "shortest time travelling the entire subway from start to finish" We won't include "on one fare" in that.
I've never been in that area myself, although I've heard it's fairly rough (but then, you hear a lot of things). But keep in mind that between four and eight in the morning, especially as you get closer to eight, is probably the safest time of day at any location.
There is no transfer between those two lines in Brooklyn, is there? They're just two stations on two different lines which are relatively close together, like Queens Plaza (E,F,G,R) and Queensboro Plaza (N,7).
:)Andrew
The two lines are perpendicular to eachother (they meet at a right angle). The 3 line crosses above the L line. There is no transfer within fare control between the two, although it would probably be possible to contruct one.
Shawn.
Day time, during a bitter driving blizzard. Wear radio beacons for possilbe Air-Sea Rescue, Make haste, tattoo you name and Social Security ID on the Major body parts, prepare a will, be sure your LIFE insurance premium has been paid, don't drink the water, avoid direct eye contact, keep a low profile. God bless and keep you!
Amen!
avid
One example is when the Brooklyn Bridge station on the 6 was being renovated, the old side platforms were visible. Any other areas like this right now?
Speaking about Brooklyn Bridge (my home station), they recently closed off the exit that went from the station directly ontpo the walkway of the bridge. I rather liked that exit because of the feeling you get when you walk from a subterrainean train station right onto one of the grandest bridges in the world.
-Dan
My proposals on revisied Manhattan Bridge service reroutes
B-145th Street(Bedford Park Blvd rush hours) to 34th St/6th Ave except midnight hours
D-205th Street and 34th St/6th Ave at all times
N-No Changes
R-No Changes except R will operate 24 hours a day
Q-Stillwell Ave to 57th St/7th Ave via Brighton Local,Manhattan Bridge,Broadway Express at all times
T-Brighton Beach to 57th St/7th Ave via Brighton Express,Manhattan Bridge,Broadway Express Monday to Friday 6AM to 9PM
W-Stillwell Ave to Ditmars Blvd-via West End Local,4th Ave Express,Manhattan Bridge,Broadway Express(Canal St to 42nd St) then via N Line to Astoria except peak hours express from Queensboro Plaza to Astoria Blvd reverse peak to Queens AM,to Brooklyn PM. Monday to Friday 6 AM TO 9PM. Evenings and Weekends W Line will operate between Stillwell Ave to 57th St/7th Ave skipping 49th Street. Midnight hours shuttle between Stillwell and 36th St/4th Ave
New Shuttle service between Grand Street and West 4th Street at all times.
Possible Shuttle Bus between DeKalb Ave Station and Grand Street Station over Manhattan Bridge. Canal Street Station to far away from Grand Street . Free Transfer to/from Shuttle Bus without using Metro Card Transfer
Thank You
I like the idea of a shuttle bus from Grand St to Dekalb Ave.
My proposals on revisied Manhattan Bridge service reroutes
B-145th Street(Bedford Park Blvd rush hours) to 34th St/6th Ave except midnight hours
D-205th Street and 34th St/6th Ave at all times
N-No Changes
R-No Changes except R will operate 24 hours a day
Q-Stillwell Ave to 57th St/7th Ave via Brighton Local,Manhattan Bridge,Broadway Express at all times
T-Brighton Beach to 57th St/7th Ave via Brighton Express,Manhattan Bridge,Broadway Express Monday to Friday 6AM to 9PM
W-Stillwell Ave to Ditmars Blvd-via West End Local,4th Ave Express,Manhattan Bridge,Broadway Express(Canal St to 42nd St) then via N Line to Astoria except peak hours express from Queensboro Plaza to Astoria Blvd reverse peak to Queens AM,to Brooklyn PM. Monday to Friday 6 AM TO 9PM. Evenings and Weekends W Line will operate between Stillwell Ave to 57th St/7th Ave skipping 49th Street. Midnight hours shuttle between Stillwell and 36th St/4th Ave
New Shuttle service between Grand Street and West 4th Street at all times.
Possible Shuttle Bus between DeKalb Ave Station and Grand Street Station over Manhattan Bridge. Canal Street Station to far away from Grand Street . Free Transfer to/from Shuttle Bus without using Metro Card Transfer
Thank You
Adding additional Shuttle Buses in the Canal/Grand St area will only add to the traffic congestion it already has from vehicles travelling from Manhattan Bridge to Canal to Holland!
I do like that idea of the Grand St shuttle running to West 4th, however.
Having worked in the area you are correct about the traffic congestion. However I believe that people coming from Brooklyn to the Grand Street Station will find the walk from Canal Street much too far. Another possibility revive the Grand Street Crosstown bus
Thank You
Most of the people that I noticed that used the Grand St Station came from and went to uptown, not Brooklyn, so if they are going to Brooklyn they could walk to the J/M/Z and take those trains to Transfer points. like they did for 50 years before 67.
So walk to a different station. Canal isn't the only one, you know.
Nobody rode the Grand Street bus when it was last in service. Will anyone ride it now?
Reverse the T and Q. Make the Q express since you are renaming the Q the T. It is confusing. Also, who needs R service 24/7???
Some time last year, I heard a guy tell the engineer of the N train I was riding on from astoria that they were going to build a ramp down to the 63rd. st. tunnel, and send the N down 6th av to west 4th, and then to lefferts blvd.
I'm not sure which drugs that guy was on to come up with that insane idea, but hey, maybe they should do it and throw it into the mix to keep rider-confusion as high as possible!
(my one sarcastic post of the week)
-Joe
Must of Been Fred, breathing in the Arcadia Air
A 21-year-old woman was killed in Ambler as she walked across the tracks at the Ambler station. Trains approached from both directions and she heeded one of them. I learned of this in an article in Tuesday's Inquirer about the need for people to be educated about train safety, prompted by this death and that of the 14-year-old boy killed by the Metroliner in Sharon Hill last Tuesday, mentioned in message 172302.
Jeez, have you read all the death by train posts within the last 2 weeks? They're droping like flies! Do the holidays make people more stupid or something?
This time of year brings out a lot of depression in many people, and depressed people will kill themselves by any means at hand. Commuters, railworkers and railfans, watch out!
Buy most of the recent deaths are of people trying to beat trains. What's up w/ that?
"But most of the recent deaths are of people trying to beat trains. What's up w/ that?"
Maybe it's just a cluster, a statistical phenomenon where random events bunch up and appear to be occurring for some non-random reason. An example of a cluster is getting heads five times in a row in a coin toss.
If it isn't a cluster, I would guess that more people are running for the train because the cold weather makes them even less amenable than usual to waiting for the next train.
I remember seeing a picture of a woman whose car had been hit by an LIRR train at a crossing where the double gate was down, lights flashing and bell ringing. The car started across the intersection despite the fact that the train (a consist of M-1 cars) had already sounded a warning blast.
The car was dragged for a quarter mile. Not only that, the train blew its tires clean off. From the photo is was obvious that the car must have contacted the third rail at some point (million amps at 750 volts DC). The naked axles meant the car was also connected to ground, creating a circuit.
Even if the motorist had survived the impact of a train cleared to go 75-90 on that stretch of track, what would have prevented her from being fried extra-crispy?
It must have been horrible for the train operator. Going home at night thinking he'd just killed somebody, and going over and over it in his head. He was helpless to do anything about it.
If someone is determined to kill oneself, not much you can do about it. It would be nice, though, if that person would not subject others to the emotional trauma of being part of what makes the death happen. It would also be nice if that woman had thought about her son, who would now be without a mother. Of course, perhaps she was merely being impulsive.
I understand that LIRR has received a $50 million grant to work on replacing grade crossings around New Hyde Park with overpasses or underpasses, similar to what was done at one side of Mineola station.
Saturday at New Brunswick, A guy jumped in front of a Acela Regional as it blew past New Brunswick Station.
From the details of the NJT engineer I talked to, the guy commited suicide and at the rate of speed the body just exploded. I feel horrible for those that witnessed that.
I was on a NJT NE Corridor train this past sunday and as we entered New Brunswick station, the engineer opened the front end door and side door on the track side, there was still internal organs layed out on the track, NOT A PRETTY SIGHT, I damn near threw up!
Regards
Trevor Logan
Those bent on suicide will not care who gets offended by what they do. Anything can set someone off, be it the death of a family member, loss of job, money woes, you name it. Trains are useful to these unfortunates because they are fast, get the job done, and most of all, are quick. I bet AMTRAK pulled the poor operator and put him through a slew of drug and alcohol tests and then questioned the daylights out of him about why he did not stop in time. No one can predict what some suicidal person will do, especially someone who is not expecting to be an instrument of death.
Oh no, he jumped like a slipt second before the trains approach! There was no time for a emergency break till after the fact!
Regards,
Trevor Logan
www.transitalk.com
I bet AMTRAK pulled the poor operator and put him through a slew of drug and alcohol tests and then questioned the daylights out of him about why he did not stop in time.
While the ENGINEER (not operator) would have had to take a Federally mandated "whiz quiz" Amtrak would not have bothered him about his role in the accident aside from a statement. Management does understand that sucides are common and there is nothing the engineer can do besides blow the whistle and put the train BIE A.S.A.P Usually its some stupid family that sues and asks the hard questions. The RR is always there w/ legal assistance for the engineer.
Anything can set someone off, be it the death of a family member, loss of job, money woes, you name it.
An event isn't necessary to set off depression; many cases are caused by the individual's neurochemistry. Many depressed people aren't depressed "about something" or as a natural reaction to a serious life event; they're depressed because their chemistry is a little off.
I am very surprised that more of these tragities are not caught on film by railfans. A good moment of impact photo blown up on large station posters just might get the message out to the non-sucidial morons who think they can beat the train. It might also turn some of the 'siders to less gashtly methods like jumping off a bridge. I'd be interested in the impact physics involved.
[It might also turn some of the 'siders to less gashtly methods like jumping off a bridge. I'd be interested in the impact physics involved.]
You're a sick puppy.
BMTman
What time of day did this happen? (Also, in your subject you say "woman killed," but in your post it mentions a man.)
On Saturday, I was on the 11:32 NJT NEC train out of Penn Station. My window seat was on the left side of the train, so I had a trackside view. At one point, I definitely recall seeing people on the tracks, but I can't remember exactly where on the line. It was so fast, but it seemed oddly dangerous for those people to be where they were, if there was indeed more than one person. I can't really remember. I could only glimpse him/them for a couple seconds. I know it was well after Newark, and well before Princeton Junction. (I slso know that doesn't really narrow it down.) Also, if there was more than one person on the tracks, one of them, the one closest, was definitely moving perpendicularly across the tracks towards our train. I commented to my wife that people were crossing the tracks, and that the engineer was probably radioing the trespassers in. (She raised her eyebrows, said, "Oh, really? Wow!" and then went back to her cloudy slumber.) I'm pretty sure I did not see any safety vests. I only thought of this later on in the trip when I saw workmen with vests, which made me wonder, in the back of my mind, whether what I saw "crossing the tracks" was perhaps a work-crew. However, the person's/people's behavior in walking slowly across the tracks did not seem crew-like at all. I may have seen the "victim" draw his last breaths.
I have a relative who is a veteran engineer for NJT, who has stories of such incidents, some of which are pretty wild. If you've been an engineer (or, I daresay, an MTA motorman) for long enough, I'm sure you get to see it all, especially around the suicide-heavy holidays.
The engineer I was speaking with about and who showed me the grusome after effects didn't give me a time frame, but by your location and station descriptions, that puts you at New Brunswick Station also.
Regards,
Just reporting that I saw a fairly large fire brewing beneath the southbound Livonia station on the L line @ about 6:00 p.m. this evening.
To me it looked like it was burning from the Bay Ridge ROW, but I couldn't be sure due to the poor lighting (I observed it from the railfan window of a slant 40). For all I know the fire could have been started by a homeless person trying to keep warm in one of the three box cars situated under the Livonia Station near Riverdale Ave. (there is a small freight-loading station there).
In any event I alerted the station master of this situation when we pulled into Rockaway Parkway station.
BMTman
In category T-407 (Line Structures) in the MTA/NYCT 2000-2004 Capital Program there is talk of permanent removal of some structures on the Nassau and the Canarsie line.
Does anyone know what structures they're refererring to on the Nassau line?
I can understand the removal of some structure on the Canarsie line near Altantic since it seems to be a great mess of ironwork. Does anyone know what all of that was for? What line or whatever made use of all of that now mostly abandoned structure?
Shawn.
>>>I can understand the removal of some structure on the Canarsie line near Altantic since it seems to be a great mess of ironwork. Does anyone know what all of that was for? What line or whatever made use of all of that now mostly abandoned structure?<<<
This was used by the old Fulton Street el.
As far as the Nassau St. line goes, here's the plan: close down and seal off what are now the Queens-bound platforms at Canal St. and the Bowery. Knock down the wall at the south end of Canal, and run the Queens-bound track into the now-unused trackway that used to be J4 track. It will continue this way to the Bowery, and then into the middle at Essex St. J3 track will be taken out completly from Canal to south of Essex. J1 track will remain in place to be used as a bypass, and perhaps for lay-ups in bad weather. This project is supposed to take 3 years.
Heh, that makes a lot of sense. That's why they only renovated the Manhattan bound side of Canal. Talk about a major change geez. It's kinda sad to see all these stations on the Nassau line gone to hell since the Chrystie Street connnetor was built. I'm sure they have a lot of history that isn't very well documented.
Does anyone have information regarding the Nassau line stations in Manhattan? I want to try to piece together a little article based on it. Maybe some highlights of it's existence and it's sad decline. What services ran through it, special or regular? Information about R line specials on the Nassau line? I'm especially interesting in why it was built the way it was, and how it fell into disrepair. Any pointers to existing information is welcome. Most of these happenings are from before my time, so I have no memory to work off of. Full credit will be given to those who contribute.
I wonder if it's worth mentioning to the Transit Museum or somewhere having a tour or something of the area before it's gone. Either that or sometime after they finish the project, maybe have a tour of what used to be there, what purpose it was served and when it was abandoned. That is if there's anything left after they close it up.
Shawn.
Yes, the Nassau St. line is very interesting. If you take a look at this 1914 map from the BMT Lines website , you can see that originally it was going to be connected with the Brooklyn Bridge too.
I have a question too, about those old R specials. My question is, "did they use the Nassau loop, onto the Manhattan Bridge, after dumping their load at Broad, Fulton, and finally, Chambers"?
No. The special R train did not come into existance until 1968, when the RJ was eliminated. The RJ, concieved with the opening of the Chrystie St. connector, ran from 95th St to 168th St Jamaica via Nassau St.
Most of these special trains didn't "terminate" at Chambers St. I remember riding them to Metropolitan Ave and to Eastern Parkway, where they laid up until the PM rush began.
The Nassau St line today is very different than what it was. Originally, known as the Centre St. line, it terminated at Chambers St. Trains from the Williamsburgh Bridge began running thru it when it opened in 1914. In 1915, when the 4th Ave. subway in Brooklyn was complete, trains began operating from it via the Manhattan Bridge. The portion south of Chambers which runs under Nassau St. was opened in 1931.
Besides the three eastern division lines which served it (10, 14,15), the Culver (5) and West End (3) was a main user of the line, as well as special trains operating via the Brighton and 4th Ave. lines (known as Banker's specials: 1/2). The Manhattan Bridge connection was permanently severed in 1967.
The old Fulton/Pitkin El ran on the eastern-most portion of the structure at Atlantic Avenue.
It is essentially excess steel. It's not in the way or anything, just old and would eventually would need retrofitting if it were to survive into the 21st Century. So it'll become scrap metal for NYCT.
BMTman
I'm just back from a day-trip to Washington, DC. I was invited by the government to chair a session at a workshop entitled "Weather Information for Surface Transportation." Whew! Talk about Transit and Weather Together!
Anyway, I flew into DCA, and walked over to the Metrorail. I caught a Blue Line train at about 8:00am. The operator spoke in a slight southern twang, with a deep voice, in a slow cadance. At each stop, he announced:
"This station is Crystal City. Doors open on the right. The time is 8:02 a.m. Have a nice day!" (Of course, insert the correct station and time for each stop.) He would draw out certain syllables, so it sounded more like, "Eight oh two aaaaaaa emmmmmmm. Have a niiiiiiice dayyyyyyyyyyyyyy!"
Entering the Pentagon, he saw a huge crowd. So he added, "Holy cow. Look at allllllll those peeeeeeeople. You all just squeeeeeeeeeeze in real tight." And then when no more could enter the train, he said, "Well all you people still on the platform, it looks like the only room is on top of the train. And I don't recommmend that. So please watch my closing doors".
As I exited at Metro Center, he gave the usual "Have a niiiiiice dayyyyyyyy!" and then added in a very high, squeaky, falsetto voice, "You have a nice day too, Mister Train Operator!"
Very nice.
LOL, I remember that guy. I had taken the blue line train to the Smithsonian for the earth day thing at the smithsonian field. Wehn he announced Smithsonian, he was like "Next stop, Smithsoooooooooooooooooonian". Everyone had these strange looks on their faces, as if they were wondering, "Is this guy drunk or something?" Although I never really heard him say anything else, I can certainly imagine him saying that.
I've ridden that guy's trains, too. He would say things like "This is our first stop in the Commonwealth of Virginia!"
Michalovic
There was a conductor on the F train in the 1970's who made a similar announcement: "Next and laaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaast stop - 179th St. Jamaica". Sometimes he would drag out the word "last" for over 30 seconds!
Numerous times on the F, I've heard the conductor say "F train to One-Seven-Nine," probably more times than I've heard "One seventy-ninth Street." Also, a conductor on the 6 once said "This is Three-Three Street."
There was a similarly "animated" conductor on the 6 that I would get occasionally: "14th Street, transfer here for: The 4! The 5! Thee N'n'R, and L trains to Canarsie! Downtown number six train to Brooklyyyyyyn Briiiiiiiidge. The next stop will be Astor Place, Cooper Union, step in and stand clear of the closin' doors."
(Trying my best to imitate inflection with text...)
"Mister Train Operator!"?
Are they still called Train Operators, even though they are not actually doing so? In light of ATO, shouldn't they perhaps be called D/O's [Door Operators]? :o)
They really aren't susposed to do the comments about how crowded the train is. I've never gotten this guy because I hardly ever use the blue line but I've had a guy on the red line who says "Have a nice day", "Have a nice weekend", or "Have a nice evening" depedning on the day of the week and time of day. Last I had him he was working weekday rush hours (he had the split shift) and Saturday afternoons. The last time I heard him but wasn't on his train was at Metro Center about 11 months ago. The "Have a nice day" gets annoying after awhile, especially if you are on his train for 45 minutes. He also reminds passengers at selected stations (Cleveland Park and Farragut North among others) to take all personal belongings and newspapers and magazines when leaving the train.
The other operator who I like to comment about is this one who talks like a computer. He will say "This is Friendship Heights. (pause) First station in the District of Columbia. (pause) Doors open, (pause) left (pause) side. He announces the train goes to both Downtown Washington AND Silver Spring in the morning, he also has the split shift and I heard him in the afternoon with the same announcement except he was going to Wheaton (this was before Glenmont opened). Once in DC or while heading away from DC, he omits the Downtown Washington announcement. He also announces the time at selected stations which is REALLY annoying because it sounds like "Tenleytown, (pause) American University, (pause) doors open, (pause) left (pause) side. Also, at the current time it is eight fifteen, (pause), eight fifteen (pause) AM." He also repeats the "Next station, Grosvenor and is the last stop on the red line for this train" when leaving Medical Center. He used to have the run from Grosvenor that stopped at Tenley at 8:15 AM and that put him on the run terminating at Grosvenor at 7:50 AM. I also had him on the run terminating at 8:26 AM. Has anyone had this guy at a transfer point? I never have but if his announcements are as bad as they are in Montgomery County, I pity those who listen to him at Metro Center.
There was(is) a MARTA T/O on the Dunwoody line who did his annoucements pretty cool, he sounded just like Barry White. We would go over an interstate that was backed up and he would be like, "Chill that Atlanta traffic, we're going to get you there MARTA style." He would sing songs, too. They had a newspaper article about him and it said people would wait specifically for his train.
When I rode MARTA, it was the east-west and Proctor Creek lines that didn't use the manual announcements. It's too bad they don't do that on the WMATA Orange Line. Maybe the Orange Line T/Os could do some kind of thing over the PA while crusing down I-66. If all the cars rolled down their windows and the exterior speaker is loud enough, people stuck in traffic could hear it.
Given the recent rash of incidents I thought it would be best to skip the queue* and post this Hot Times about a tragic grade crossing accident out hero was involved in. There is a followup article where he describes a subsuquent suicide and how he dealt with it all. If you wish I could cut that to the front of the line also.
**********************************************************************
Today: Why we Blow our Whistles at Crossings
I'll give a brief rundown of the trip preceeding the collision for
background purposes. We were ordered for 1600 hours at Fond du Lac on the afternoon of 18 October 1989. After our airtest and roll-by, we departed Shops Yard @ 1700 hours with the 6522 (in WC paint), 6502 and 6501 with 41X74, 6415 tons.
We set-out the 6501 at Byron after climbing the mountain and proceeded onto Waukesha where we met TO41. We stopped again at Burlington to setout 5X4, 721 tons and back on the move @ 2000 hours. At Nestle we met L5455, the Burlington Patrol who spotted a dangerous defect in our train and promptly notified us. My Conductor inspected the suspect car and determined it had stuck brakes and serious brakeshoe build-up on the wheels and we had to set the car out. Due to the nature of this type of defect, material from the
brakes shoes overheats as do the wheels of the car and a metallic like
substance builds up on the wheels allowing them to be lifted above the rail as wheel is now riding on the build up instead of on the wheel tread. This can cause the car to "walk off" the rail and derail. We had to proceed at about 5 mph to Wheatland to setout the car. After the airtest we departed Wheatland @ 2125 with 36X69 5662 tons and about 6600 feet of train.
I should mention two items before we go on here. First off, we had trouble making any kind of speed with this train due to the length and weight, as only two units were not providing for much. Second, we encountered a rain/snow mixture for part of the trip between Wheatland and Silver Lake making for slippery rail which also didn't help our cause.
We met TO43 at Silver Lake. He wasn't quite in the clear yet, so we were operating well less than track speed to avoid stopping and having crossings blocked while we waited for him to enter the siding and clear for us. Once he cleared and we got the clear signal at Silver Lake East, we began to attempt to get the train up to speed. We still had the wet rail a little way east of Silver Lake where the precipitation mixture subsided and we got back onto dry rail again, As we entered Illinois near Antioch we dropped into a sag that gave us a little momentum and we finally started to get some speed reaching a hair raising 40 mph and I commented to the affect we were finally starting to move along. We entered Antioch and started to proceed through town and its numerous, fairly closely spaced crossings. Track speed through here was 50 mph.
The whistle was being blown almost constantly due to the close proximity of the crossings. As we started up the grade towards Route 173, we could see the "snitch lights" on the sides of the roundels illuminating indicating the signals there were activated and working properly. I had just come over Ida Avenue and no sooner finished whistling it when I began my sequence of two longs, a short and a long for Route 173. By this point my speed was starting to increase and I hit 42 mph.
As we closed in on Route 173, an auto rapidly approached and Brian yelled "that son of a bitch is going!". He was across and gone in an instant. At this the moment he came directly into my path, I was about 400 feet from the crossing and closing in at a little over 50 feet per second. I got enough of a look at the car to determine that it was a full sized GM product and it was gone. Just then, I caught a flash of headlights in my peripheral vision to my left. It was just a brief flash of light. With the control stand to my
left, the radio mounted above the automatic brake valve and the the
telemetry receiver mounted directly above the brake pipe gauges, my range of vision to the left is greatly diminished.
We continued towards the crossing with the whistle and bell sounding. Then Brian screamed out "OH MY GOD!" At 2155 hours on the evening of October 18th, 1989, my life changed forever.
Before I could even react, there was a tremendous impact and horrible
crashing sound and the screetch of grinding metal. The impact was so great that the engine leaned far over to my right pushing me into the window. Brian was thrown out of his seat and onto the floor. I immediately reached over and put the train into emergency. Simultaneously, I jumped up and ran around to get behind the control stand. I remember thinking that we were about to go over onto our side and knew that I wanted more between me and mother earth than just a window. As I was moving to the backside of the
control stand, I hit the Dispatcher call in button on the radio. This all happened within the course of maybe three seconds tops. It all seemed like it was in slow motion and took forever to occur. I honestly don't know how I managed to do so much in such a short time. It all happened far faster than it is taking you to read this.
A tremendous amount of activity was now taking place in an instant. As the engine came back down after leaning to the right, it bottomed out and began to bounce vertically. We bottomed out several times. And then the slack began to crash into us.
The emergency rate of brake pipe application was advancing through the train at a rate of 900 feet per second. This means that the entire train would not be into the emergency application for about 7 seconds from the time I first dumped the air. An emergency application of the brakes starts a sequence of events that cannot be controlled. Two of them are slack action as the train is slowing down rapidly at different rates and a tremendous change in the dynamics of the train make-up occurring simultaneously. The tail end of the train is still moving at the speed it was when I first put it into emergency. The head end is trying to stop at the same time. The run in of slack was incredible. As it started to reach us, it slammed hard into the engines throwing both of us forward into the front bulkhead of the cab. It hit us again several more times. Now, we were slowing down rapidly.
By this point the Dispatcher has come onto the radio answering my call-in signal. I run back over to it and yell out that we just collided with a vehicle in Antioch. There are probably three things that a Train Dispatcher probably hopes to never ever hear. This is one of them. The Dispatcher was my friend and well seasoned veteran John Busa. He immediately knew what to ask and what to do. "Which crossing? Do we need an ambulance?" What crossing is this? Oh shit! What is the name of this crossing? "Uh, it's the second crossing west of the hotbox detector!" By now, the train has come to a stop. The Engineer on 43 hears this and tells John it is Rt 173. He again asks with the phone in his ear already ringing up the Antioch Police if we need an ambulance. I remember telling him "it was a tremendous impact; ya, you better get one going!"
I'm helping Brian up off the floor and making sure he is OK when John calls back and says emergency people are enroute. He then asks if we are OK and do we need any medical attention. Ironically, he is the only person from the railroad to ever ask that question that entire night until we talked to the claim agent much later.
As Brian is getting his coat on, we now start to wonder about the train and hazmat. With the incredible slack action that had just taken place, we realize that we could very likely be derailed. We had a block of 22 empty 89 foot pipe flats in the middle of the train with heavy loads of roofing granules and rolled paper behind them. A quick look at the paperwork shows no hazmat back there. Relief, if only for a moment.
Brian heads out the front door to discover the steps are all smashed in on the left front and heads out the back door instead to proceed back to the scene. By now, the ghouls are all coming out in force to take a look at what happened. I have people approaching the engines to see the carnage. I actually had to threaten one guy with two little kids with arrest. He was telling me it was "his right" to see this. I told him the police would take him to jail if he came any closer.
I proceeded to make a quick inspection of the motive power to check for any kind of fire or fuel leaks. I took a quick look at the damage and almost lost it. There was flesh and hair on the left front side of the number 1 trucks and on the remains of the steps. I quickly climbed back into the cab to see if Brian had made it back there yet. Just as I entered the cab again, John called to see if we had any more information about injuries. That was just about the time Brian came upon a body of a now deceased, 16 year old girl. The emergency response people had arrived just moments before Brian found her, but hadn't reached him or her yet. How he stayed in one piece is beyond me. Must have found that hidden strength we all have. I reported this information to the Dispatcher. This news totally devastated me. I can only imagine what this sight did to Brian.
During this period of time, I perform two tasks that I never once even
thought about doing, I just did them. First, I sat down and pulled out a sheet of paper and wrote out every possible detail I could remember that occured just prior to, and then after the point of impact. Then I went outside and did a thorough inspection of my motive power and made a full report of all damages. Upon inspecting the right rear of the 6522, I discovered the ballast in the rear of the locomotive has been pushed through the carbody just above the access door to right rear sander relays. This most likely happened either when the train started to slam into us or when we bottomed out all those times. Both of these documents were later subpoenaed as evidence.
Now the Paramedics are working feverishly to remove another person, another young girl from the car. I was told they used the "Jaws of Life " to assist in extracating her from the car. Brian informs me that another fatality is discovered; another 16 year old girl. The girl trapped in the car is still alive though. By this point in time, two officers from the Antioch Police Department arrive and board the locomotive. Both of them realize the hell I am going through and do their best to calm me down. Now I had quit smoking in 1982, but the first thing I asked the two officers is if either one of them had a cigarette. They interviewed me and informed me that the coroner had been called and he too, would have to interview me before we would be released. They stayed up there with me for quite some time to make sure I was going to be OK. They also kept asking me if I needed any medical attention.
What seemed like an eternity passed and Brian told me that the third girl, the driver of the car had also passed away. I relayed this information to John and informed him that both Brian and myself wished to be relieved. He relayed that information to the Chief. A little while later, he came back on to inform us that the Trainmaster at Schiller Park, Doug Thereoff, refused our request as he was planning to run a work train in the morning and didn't want to "waste this crew for us". How considerate and compasionate. There was no love lost between Doug and I prior to this, and this gave me all the reason to despise him yet even more. He never even left the office to head up to the scene. He told us later that he figured there was no reason for him to be there and also there was nothing he could do anyway.
After the Paramedics were finished, Brian was brought up to the head end by another one of Antioch's finest. We were told that the Coroner was out for the evening and was enroute to interview us and pronounce death, but it would be awhile. A WC track supervisor and a signal maintainer had arrived at the scene and had talked to Brian. The track supervisor was kind enough to inspect the train for us, and to our shock, inform us that everything was on the rail and nothing shifted or off center.
Finally, the Coroner arrived and interviewed us. He too, was very
compassionate to our situation and did his best to make us feel at ease. With all of that finally taken care of, we were released at 2329 hours, 2 hours and 34 minutes after the collision occurred.
Neither Brian nor I felt we were in any condition to proceed, but our old pal Doug at Schiller Park thought otherwise. We then proceeded to take the train east to Schiller Park, never once exceeding 20 mph the rest of the trip. When we finally arrived at Schiller at 0120, Doug started to give us all kinds of instructions about our setout and pickup and taking the train through to the IC at Markham. We informed him we were all finished for the rest of the evening and to call a cab. I told him if he so worried about the train he could take it himself.
Upon our arrival in the office there, Doug tells us we need to call the
Antioch Police as they had a couple of more questions they needed answered and to call the claim agent. We did both and the while talking to the claim agent, he asked if we were alright and if we needed medical attention. After getting all this taken care of, we finally got our cab to the hotel.
I didn't sleep a wink the entire night (or morning as the case was). I kept going over time and time again, what had transpired. I was trying to think of what I should have done differently. Maybe I should have layed-off sick. Something, anything. Ten years later, I still wonder. I did nothing wrong. I violated no rules and broke no laws. Yet I got all the guilt. I don't suppose it helped when the word "babykiller" was mentioned by someone close to one of the deceased in the media. Ya right, like I chased these three girls down the street, up their driveway and into the garage, then hit them when they weren't looking. Interestingly enough, the driver of the car didn't go to school that day as she was "too sick". Apparently she made a complete recovery in time to go out that evening and play cat and mouse with the car in front of them that made it across the tracks without getting hit. This was all learned during the period of discovery.
The following legal proceedings only helped to make this situation worse. I spent over 7 hours in deposition. Have the transcripts to prove it. Lawyers! The families made sure I was served with a subpoena on Thanksgiving Day, only fortunately for me, I wasn't home to receive it. Guess this was their way of getting even. Screwed up their plans.
I never saw the car. It never made past the front of the engine. The front drawbar hit solidly right behind the right front wheel well. The car was spun a little more than sideways and wound up completely off the road and onto the right of way just east of the crossing. The engine block was ripped completely out of the car. The dashboard to was also torn out. The speedometer was stuck at 50 mph. The two passengers never had a chance. At least one of them was physically struck by the locomotive. I did see pictures of the car some time later. It once was a Chevy Caprice. It was completely destroyed. The salvage yard it was taken to eventually scrapped it as they told the claim agent absolutely nothing was salvagable on it.
In the legal proceedings that followed, first I was accused of speeding. They had a witness who claimed I was going at least 70 mph. That was proven not to be true. The final results were something like 42.1 mph. Then, I was accused of not whistling, again, disproven. Finally, they tried to say the crossing signals were not functioning. The kid who made it across in front of us, after first denying even being there or knowing these girls, claimed he was on the crossing and we were right there and the signals were not working. They also brought in a police dispatcher who claimed she too was almost hit by a train at that very crossing the day prior to the wreck. Unfortunately for her, the Dispatcher's sheet and hotbox detector tapes showed no train within 25 miles of that crossing at the time she swore it happened. A witness stopped at the crossing heading the other way stated they were working just fine as he saw them and was stopped awaiting our passage.
The legal proceedings were all settled in 1992 outside of court and
fortunately for Brian and myself, we didn't have to testify. From what my lawyer told me, the families actually lost money by filing suit. Too bad, so sad.
Am I bitter about the legal proceedings? Damn right I am. My world was
turned upside down by somebody else's negligence and I have to defend myself and my actions. Some lawyers approached these families telling them they could make millions over this. Don't accept responsibility, just sue somebody else. I feel terrible enough that these young girls died, don't make me the scapegoat for something I didn't do. Maybe the mother of the girl who cut school that day for allegedly being sick should shoulder the responsibility. Did it ever occur to her that just maybe her daughter was too sick to drive? As a result, they all wound up dead.
I have been involved in several crossing collisions since then and a
suicide. Ironically, the suicide occurred just nine days after the Antioch episode and just five miles from that scene.
Maybe life truly is stranger than fiction.
Tuch
*Actually I first got this piece sometime before Hot Times was even started. It was later included as a Hot Times as well as article in the BLE newsletter.
Good Ol' America. People try to make money off tragedy and try to blame hard workers for their daughter's neglegence. At least they didn't win.
But to put somebody back on the (rail) road after such a traumatic incident is inhumane. Well so is Capitalism.
Everytime I read stories like this it re-enforces why I'm a socialist.
Yes, socialism is much more humane.
Everytime I read stories like this it re-enforces why I'm a socialist.
Under socialism, not only would the crew been ordered to continue the run, they would have been shot if they hadn't.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
<< From what my lawyer told me, the families actually lost money by filing suit. Too bad, so sad. >>
No, what's sad is that after examining the evidence, the families lawyers chose to continue the suit. Of course, we live in a world of "file the suit first, examine the evidence later," also known as Ready-Shoot-Aim. Those lawyers should have been disbarred.
IOPUXY
Those six letters are the only ones remaining which have not been used by the IND/TA/MTA lettering schemes. I'm probably wrong but IND numbering schemes used to go up to 17 or 18 (that was before my time) so 19 and on up to infinity have yet to be used either.
I looks too much like a one, and so may never be used.
Ditto O, which looks like a Q from far enough away.
P is what too many vagrants do in subway cars. Using that letter would provoke a lot of snickering.
U. I don't know why it's being skipped. Anyone know?
X and Y. You can save 'em for the Second Avenue local and express, if they're ever built. When even more lines get built by, say, 2200, they'll have to bring back the double letter system...
www.forgotten-ny.com
Anybody want to bet by what year the subway will have all 26 lettered trains? We could do a little pool.
None of us will be around to collect...
We could put it in our wills.
Never. As long as I looks like 1 and O looks like 0 and Q, those letters will never be used.
Another option would be to use those symbols from the WingDing fonts: A B C D E F G H I J K L M N O P Q R S T U V W X Y Z a b c d e f g h i j k l m n o p q r s t u v w x y z
I can hear the announcements now: "Attention all passengers, due to construction on the smiley-face line, please change at Times Square for the snowflake shuttle, or at Penn Station for the skull-and-crossbones train." :-)
Yo, this train is the bomb?
-Hank :)
You know, there was some controversy over the Wingding font. In the orignal version (and maybe present ones) if you typed NYC in captial letters, it would should a skull and crossbones, then the Star of David (Jewish sybolism), then a thumbs up symbol. That was though to have meant "Death to Jews is OK". There was talk of conspiracy and the usual nonsense against Microsoft. Seriously anyone who sits at their desk and types things in Wingdings fonts that come out to have some secret message REALLY needs to find something better to do with their lives.
Shawn.
I would interperate it as "NYC: Its full of Crime, Its full of Jews and Its full of prostitutes."
You're right. It does come out to what you described. I was unaware of this and there was no intention in anyway.
Anyone viewing this on a Mac? I wonder if it would show up the same.
NO! You have to switch to Greek leters. Add a little class to the subways. I have posted for download a basic greek font at http://mbrotzman.web.wesleyan.edu/greekc.ttf You need to download and install the font to see the correct letters. You need to right click and save the link target as greekc.ttf then go to the Fonts part of your control pannel and install the font. Its really worh it.
A B C D E F G H I J K L M N O P Q R S T U V W X Y Z a b c d e f g h i j k l n m o p q r s t u v w x y z
I can see a reason why there is no "U" train. Any time there would be a delay, a re-route, a stuck door, or a missed train, people would be inclined to say "F--- U!!!!!"
I'm probably wrong but IND numbering schemes used to go up to 17 or 18 (that was before my time) so 19 and on up to infinity have yet to be used either.
The IND never used numbers, only letters (A-H). The BMT used numbers (1-16); in the 1960s, the IND number system was extended to include the BMT lines (J-T, with the exception of O, P and S, although I believe that P may have been intended for the BMT Culver-Nassau line). In that system, the 'X' was reserved for special servies (such as the short-lived NX), and 'S' for specials (the Aqueduct Racetrack specials bore the 'S' designation). All shuttles were designated 'SS'.
The IRT never used either numbers or letters. The number system was introduced after WW II, when the lines were already city owned.
Another note on BMT line numbers -- in 1936, a new route was added, the 14th St - Fulton St line. However, a new number was not added to the head end signs for the new route. The cars on this line ran signed as route '13' (which was the route number assigned to the main Fulton St. line to Park Row).
-- Ed Sachs
I'd have to take X off the list in memory of the old NX train.
I'd have to take X off the list in memory of the old NX train.
True there is no U train. But the TA does UUUse the U for it's combination road/switching/yard crew jobs in the IRT.
Since they use the V for the same jobs in the IND/BMT, they'll have to come up with a new letter designation. Probably T or Y since they can't use X, as X is used for G.O. jobs.
What about the Greek Alphabet
omega psy delta or #, $ ** ! ? and other special characters.
Or how about Presidential lines . The Linclon , with his charactureazation from a penny on the sign, or Rudy!
avid
Just Don't ask for a Gore or Bush train. People would get confused and accidently wind up on the Pat Buchanan train.
Don't forget that you can now use K and H as well ...
The Subway Alphabet
Single-lettered lines that have been used in the subway since the IND started using letters.
ABCDEFG, H blank JK LMN blank blank. QRS, T blank V, W, blank, blank and Z.
I, O, P, U, X, and Y are the only letters that haven't been used as a subway line name. An interesting word, iopuxy (eye-oh-PUhX-ee). It isn't defined in any dictionary, but I can see it as a word comprising of all letters that will NOT be used in the New York subway. Here's my list of why.
I: Looks like 1.
O: Looks like a zero or a Q.
P: Many bathroom jokes can be formed from this line. Just look at any place that has a "P Street" (like Washington, DC) or Avenue P (like Brooklyn).
I almost died laughing as I was directing a friend of DC via Connecticut Avenue, and said, as we were winding through the streets of DC (I think we were on 15th NW when I said it), "Make a left on P." I was like that for eight minutes! We did make it to CT Avenue, and drove out of DC that way. I don't know what it was, but I just had this thought in my mind when I said it (I'm trying to hold back laughter as I type this because I'm in a computer lab at school, but I have this big smile on my face as I'm typing this.) and just started laughing uncontrollably! The following Sunday, someone who was in the jeep with me when I said that said "P Street." I laughed a little bit, but not as much as I did while in DC. There's something about P Street that makes me laugh.
U: Sounds like "you." Consider this dialogue:
Person 1: Take the U train
Person 2: The ME train! Since when was there a ME train?
Person 1: No, not the YOU train, the U train! Take it to Second Avene and transfer to the Y train.
Person 2: Why?
Person 1: Because--
Person 2: I didn't know there was a BECAUSE train? I thought he was in center field...
A brand-new "Who's on first?" routine.
X: Parents wouldn't let their kids ride this line because they'd think this line contains porn (an X-rated train, not an X train).
Y: sounds like "why." See U above for more info.
They could just switch the number and letter designations between the A and B division. The A division would have lettered lines and B would have numbered lines. That way, they could go on to infinity in the B division, since they have more lines than the A would ever have. 300 years from now someone can ride the 437892 train to work.
As usual, I headed from my apartment, in Forest Hills, to the YMCA at 33rd and Queens Blvd. I entered the subway at 67th Ave. and caught a G train to 74th/Roosevelt, to connect with a S/B 7. When I got upstairs, what did I discover? No local 7 to Manhattan. I had to go all the way back to Junction, via a local, to then catch an express to Woodside, which would then go local the rest of the way.
Did I see one worker on the tracks????????? Of course not. But it was 12 noon, so I have to assume that it was lunch time, and that everyone was taking a break. Seriously though. Why all the inconveniences, with no sign of actual work taking place?
I can't wait to see what is waiting for us this weekend.
Do you believe in any kind of god? Do you see one? No? Does it exist? Not by that logic.
-Hank
There's nothing scheduled for the E, G, R, or 7 trains, and the only diversion for the F is it's running on the A from W4 St to Jay St.
Yesterday, there was no local 7 between Junction and Woodside. You had to go back to Junction, and then express to Woodside. But as I watched through the front window, as a true train buff always does, there was not one visible worker on the tracks. Not even a flag or work train. But then again, it was about lunch time, so I am sure everyone was just eating at that moment.
Regardless of who was or wasn't on the tracks, it was a scheduled GO, of which there are none for this weekend. Also, I take back what I posted about the F; that's only late nights, weekdays only (which I suppose includes 12-5 AM Saturday), through next Friday.
After reading about an accident that occurred when a set of 5 R-142s were delivered and finding out in an earlier post that the cars had no handbrakes I think that it would be a good idea to equip the cars with handbrakes in addition to the emergency brake pull cords just in case of an emergency. This way the extra redundancy can help to reduce the chance of an accident.
BMTJeff
I would chock up the accident with the R142A's to neglegence. The parking brake has to be cut out during delivery. During normal operation the parking brake would not be cut out. From what I understand the parking brake is spring applied and requires air pressue to be released. The parking brake would be applied when the train is dumped or possibly when it loses power (not sure about that). This seems to me to be an enhanced feature over handbrake. As someone previously mentioned (forgive me, short memory), it's a possibility not to apply appropriate handbrakes, thus making them ineffective when the air has bled out after some time.
Either they simply forgot or didn't think to reapply the parking brake when they were done moving them. I'm sure they must have received some kind of training on handling the R142(A)'s. This was not the fault of the R142(A)'s in this case.
I'm not at all qualified to explain handbrakes versus parking brakes but I'm sure the designers were. There obviously must be a reason why the R142(A)'s don't have handbrakes. You just don't "forget" to include features like that. Maybe someone can find some documentation on the R142(A)'s. Hopefully that would shed light on to the choices of the designers.
Shawn.
As someone suggested, one less toy for children to play with. Also, a few less moving parts to be maintained.
It seems to me that the only downsides of the oarking brake are the need to periodically check the springs and the difficulty in moving a car that has no air.
Hate to break it to ya, but handbrakes will not stop a subway
car that is already moving, at least not at a rate that matters.
They can, however, prevent a wheel from turning once it has
stopped, sometimes causing the locked wheel to be dragged along,
get good and hot, start a few track fires, and maybe cause a
derailment. This is one of the reasons to go with parking brakes,
but again it's a case of turning the house upside-down instead
of re-hanging a picture frame. Especially with the on-board diags,
you could get pinpoint handbrake indication.
As for the emergency brake, on the 142s it is cleverly concealed in
a compartment and is in fact an emergency stop request switch.
There is some bit of logic interposed that is supposed to allow the
thing to cause an emergency brake pipe venting only when the
train is entering, stopped within or departing a station. I'd
like to get the tech details of exactly how that works.
One express (E) and 2 locals(V,R) Manhattan-bound trains stopping at Queens Plaza is no better than the current situation of 2 Express (E,F) and one local (R). Yes, finally, the useless "G" is gone, but it could have been sent into Manhattan under another 60th Street tunnel if one existed, rather than to Continental Ave. Sure, the new scenario will ease congestion at the 53rd Street/Lexington station a bit, but what about all of the mid-Queens (Maspeth, Woodside, Middle Village) residents that take buses and transfer at Queens Plaza for a Manhattan-bound subway? The current solution eases congestion at 53rd/Lex, but not at Queens Plaza, or for that matter at 74th St/Roosevelt, where many commuters take the local Triborough buses to transfer for a Manhattan-bound subway.
What is needed is another Manhattan-bound express train that stops at both Roosevelt Ave/74th St and Queens Plaza, then takes the N,R route down 60th Street and runs local down Broadway. How much time and $$$ to build a 3rd tunnel under 60th Street? - With this option,commuters could transfer to the 4,5,6 lines at 59th Street. Rerouting the "F" to the 63rd Street tunnel completely REMOVES ACCESS to the "6" train for "F" riders, that under the new plan, must transfer to an "E" or "R" at Roosevelt Ave. Maybe a new 60th Street express tunnel can be added as part of the LIRR east-side connection project? Any thoughts?
No room for it under 60th Street. Street too narrow. Can't put it under existing tunnels because of Lex express tracks. Have to rebuild the entire interlocking at west end of Queens Blvd Station to make room for a 7th track and at the north end of 57th Street Station to make room for a 5th track.
I don't think so.
You guys say build build build, where is the money going to come from? Not under the Bush Administration or from the Republican State Legistrature(sp) unless you raise fare to 5.00 a ride or more.
Well if the N.I.M.B.Y.s in THOSE neighborhoods had been forsighted they would not have Booed the proposals for reserecting the Rockaway Branch. Theeeennnn service could have gone through Maspeth, Woodside and Middle Village right to the upper level or the ramps at Roosevelt.
But Noooooooo, that proposal would have brought UNdesirable, trailer trash, and the Ebola Virus to those communities. Now you want to rip open some other neighborhoods for a special interest group.
Step back and look at the whole BIG picture. We are a City, a group of many villages.
avid
[Sure, the new scenario will ease congestion at the 53rd Street/Lexington station a bit, but what about all of the mid-Queens (Maspeth, Woodside, Middle Village) residents that take buses and transfer at Queens Plaza for a Manhattan-bound subway? ]
V would probably be emptyer than current F? Also you could rerout some buses to distribute passangers to use locals.
[What is needed is another Manhattan-bound express train that stops at both Roosevelt Ave/74th St and Queens Plaza, then takes the N,R route down 60th Street and runs local down Broadway. ]
There is no capacity left on QB exp tracks. If you need Broadway service there's R.
[Maybe a new 60th Street express tunnel can be added]
You already have 6 tracks connecting to 6 tracks with 2 of them (Astoria) not requiring the whole capacity. 2 more tracks connecting to QB bottleneck would be just a waste of money. Probably for the same money one could build 2 more tracks from Roosevelt Av.
Arti
If you went from 179th to Lex, too bad! Not everyone is gonna be happy. Take the E or R. Is transfering that bad???
The 63 St "T" track cutoff north of Queens Plaza wasn't the
ideal solution. We knew that. There were a bunch of alternative
plans for utilizing "the tunnel to no where"; this was the easiest
and cheapest. It may not be the best, but "at least it got done".
There has been a tremendous oversight here, both by the TA and the media. It is true that riders in Queens and Brooklyn will have to face changes. But since the Broadway line is no more than a few blocks away from 6th ave line stops in Midtown, the walk should not be too long for those riders.
It is those in Chinatown who suffer the most. I go there a few times a week to get food and stuff (real cheap!), and use Grand street all the time. This is a very busy station, one often has to fight there way through the crowds during rush hours and weekends.
This once depressed area of the lower East Side is now bustling, the "new" center of Chinatown of sorts. Food markets, music stores, and eateries have all sprung up near the Grand street station. But the bridge flip may erase many gains, and ruin people's livelihoods in this area.
The simplest advice by the TA would be "use Canal street". It's almost a 9 block walk from Grand to Canal, and Canal street is a virtual pedestrain traffic jam as it is. The station layout requires one to walk through the Nassau St line, then to the lower level where the bridge trains are. Canal street station is a pain to use, between the crowds, street peddlers (many of them aren't even chinese), and the smell I avoid the place.
The other option is to use the Bowery station, which is only two blocks away. But Nassau st service doesn't service midtown, only Brooklyn rush hours, and runs infrequently.
Delancey on the F would be the next closest station, but still a rather long walk through not the best of areas.
And buses are infrequent and irregular, especially in Chinatown.
the effects of the closure will be clear. A loss of business to merchants in the Grand/Bowery area. Some will probably close.
The crowding on Canal street will be in severe proportions. And adding the traffic to that, it will be an even more dangerous place for pedestrians.
Many have pointed out Canal street station is closer to "Chinatown". Perhaps it is closer to the old Chinatown many tourists visit.
But to Chinese, the center of their Chinatown is much further away.
Most chinese stores, from entertainment to food, are on Bowery street, Grand street and East Broadway. These are the areas bustling with chinese immigrants. These are the areas that the TA totally ignores in it's plan.
What would I propose to alleviate the situation? If we can't connect the Grand St. tracks to the south side, then bus lines should be rerouted and non-essential traffic in the area curtailed (no cars allowed on Grand street except for business purpose).
The V would terminate at Grand street, and a switch will be put in to turn trains. If a switch could not be put in, they would turn at the nearest crossover, before Bway-Lafeyette. A Grand st crossover should be put in though, it can't be that hard!!
There would be additional bus service on the M103, plus a new route that runs (with limited stops) from 14th street & Broadway, then to Bowery, then down Grand street to Grand &Broadway.
Bus service would also be increased on the M9 and M15.
And a new bus route from Dekalb avenue (w/free xfer) would run to Grand street.
I think the real travesty here is that the TA has completely ignored the needs of the chinese in Chinatown, because they are immigrants and don't have any advocates.
And unfortunately the media is out to lunch on how it all affects Chinatown as well. Equality is still a long way off in America.
[It's almost a 9 block walk from Grand to Canal]
9 really short blocks, about the same as 2 avenue blocks. Many of us have to walk that much every day to get to subway.
[It is those in Chinatown who suffer the most. I go there a few times a week to get food and stuff (real cheap!)]
I'm getting a feeling that this is YOU who suffers the most!
Arti
John, I feel like I have to post here to respond...
I am Chinese-American myself, even tho I am based in Boston, and almost everytime I go to Chinatown in NYC (and especially with my grandparents), we almost always walked from Centre (or even Lafayette) and Canal to as far as Mott (sometimes Elizabeth or even Bowery)...not even once did anybody in my family complain about it being too far...
and don't forget that some of the bustling shops on the new, revitalized Chinatown can be reached by the F/J/M/Z at Essex/Delancey, East Broadway or Bowery stations.
In fact, I sometimes reach Confucius Plaza on East Broadway, the back door way by walking from the 4/5/6 at Brooklyn Bridge/City Hall station...
There are so many stations surrounding Grand St which is within a reasonable walk from some major stations (Canal included)...or x-fer to M9/15/22/103.
I don't see what your whining is all about, and I don't even want to know...
Nick
Yes , the flip is a disturbing event. Its effects reach far and wide and close . We'll all just have to tuff it out for a while.
avid
The M15 is neither infrequent nor irregualr, with three minute headways throughout the day, and it stops three short blocks from Grand & Chrystie. I used to take the M15 to East Broadway from Second Avenue or Houston Street frequently. Plus, it's getting artics, which will increase capacity.
Someone coming from 14th Street would be far better off taking the F or V to the Shuttle rather than taking a slow, meandering, redundant, and wasteful bus route.
It has already been said that the installation of a switch would cost $20,000,000, which is not justifiable for a solution to a temporary problem.
I picked my job for the next six months yesterday and swa the list of booths which will temporarily close due to station renovation.I will only list the stations:
Prince, Eighth, 23rd and 28th on the N and R; Delancey/Essex J/M/Z/F; Utica 3/4.
Times Square will continue to see changes due to new building constructions and continuing station renovation.(One booth will close for 3 yearsd and another open 24 hours until the three years are up.)
Good news: No major booth closings- only three are closing : Two at Atlantic Ave Brooklyn BMT. ALso Fifth Avenue on the 7--the full-time booth will close for renovations. When the renovations are completed then the part-time booth there will close.
NYCT did have plans for mjaor cuts, but TWU combined with local politicians have saved our jobs!
Again today, CP Rail came down with no R142's in the consist. I'm starting to wonder if this is some kind of trend. Is is possible that the delivery plan have changed some how? Does anyone know if there's any R142's sitting in Oak Point or elsewhere?
I'm starting to think that NYCT has postponed any further delivery until the cars that are already on the property can be modified and put into service. I may just be a little too paranoid :)
Shawn.
Modified? You mean they are not delivered ready for service?
As far as I know... they are making modifications to every set of cars delivered. The modifications are based on the R142's testing cycle. I have no idea what it is that they have made modifications though.
Shawn.
Or maybe NYCT got scared when a couple of railfans showed up at Junius and snapped pictures of the delivery last Wednesday night???
I believe there has not been a delivery since then....
BMTman
Hehehe... maybe they're pissed that we figured out their secret delivery plans faster than it took them to plan them in the first place :)
Shawn.
Shawn, I think you might have something there....hehehe....:-)
BMTman
BTW, just how many sets have been delivered? I have yet to ride on one, mainly because I'm upstate in Utica?
when the cars are modified(why the hell they need modification?) are gone then more will be delivered. the yard is probably filled up with R-142's
That brings up some interesting questions.
1 - If the deliveries are being held up, how long can the plants produce cars before they get full and have to stop?. It appears to be just the opposite of JIT (just in time) deliveries to keep inventory small.
2 - If the are still producing cars, will they have so many to deliver that the TA can't get the cars tested fast enough when delivered?
Here is yet another proposal, which I have thought of based on the MTA's proposed service plan for mid-2001:
A, C, E, M, N, R: same service as now.
B, D, G, S: same as proposed service plan
Changes:
F: 71 St. Av. via 53rd St. and 6th Av. and Culver to Coney Island, local all the way, 17/7 (nights between 57th St.-6th Av. & CI, only).
Q diamond: Jamaica-179th via 63rd St. and Broadway and Brighton to Brighton Beach, express all the way, 17/5.
Q circle: Jamaica-179th via 63rd St. and Broadway and Brighton to Coney Island, local 179th to 71 St. Av., express 71 St. Av. to Canal St., local in Brooklyn, 17/7 (nights local in Queens and Brooklyn, express in Manhattan).
V: not necessary under this plan.
W: as proposed (Astoria-Broadway-West End Express) except that runs local in Manhattan and via tunnel from Queens AM, to Queens PM (this in order to present a free corridor to the Q from Queens Blvd. AM and to Queens Blvd. PM).
What do you guys think?
--Harry
for those who are interested in or who collect roll signs, there is a club on yahoo for you... it's a small club, but there are some knowledgable people there...
roll sign club
Let's see here...
Chinatown -- Even though it would be nice for say, the V, to run from 71/Continental (or 179) to Grand St instead of 2 Ave...
There are these alternates available...
F to Delancey, E Broadway
J/M to Bowery
J/M/N/R/Z/6 to Canal
4/5/6 to Brooklyn Bridge/City Hall stop
M103, M15, M9 and M22 buses
True, the N/R , 4/5 and F (and to a lesser extent J/M/Z) will be more crowded and slightly take longer, but all of these will come to or within 10 minutes walking distance of Grand/Chrystie, but 90-95% of the people should be able to make this walk, with the exceptions of those that insist on getting there without walking and some elderly people...
The likely bottlenecks of this are:
Canal Street
Pacific/Atlantic Complex
Delancey/Essex Streets
As for West 4 to transfer to A/C/E (or to other 6 Av stations), they could transfer at Atlantic/Pacific for the 2/3 and then transfer at Park Place for A/C/E, or Chambers/14 St to 1/9 for the nearest station to the 6 Av station, with the added benefits of having 18 St and 28 St stations and then walk from there...again, a max 10 minute walk on a good day.
For CPW, a straight 2/3 (and a cross-platform transfer to 1/9 if necessary) will get you to the stop closest to the CPW stop you need)
from Atlantic/Pacific...with the exception of those needing to get to 125 and north, which an A/D transfer at 59 is needed after the cross-platform transfer to 1/9 from 2/3 at Chambers/14/TSQ.
Overall, I can't see why all this bitching about "losing service," when there are other services available which are within a 5 to 10 minute walk from the other stations available....
For those who are complaining, it will very certainly be part of your daily routine for the next 5 years or so after 2001, so get used to it and stop whining...
Oh, a final comment, which I don't like to make, but I have to, those whiners are the ones that are probably also contributing to America's unhealthy lifestyle (especially obesity)...so just get off your train and walk those 5-10 minutes to where you are going...it will do you some good!
Nick
I think a system like bostons would prevent this type of accident with the young child.
With the emergency brake connect to the end door unlock, the brake must be enganed to open the door.
Again there are exceptions. Like the crew leaving it unlock. Maybe a device to prevent the train from taking power if its open.
The press finally discovered that this station will
be opened once the bridge flips sides.
Junked Stop's a Go for W Line
the question is once it has train running through it will it still be the coldest station in the system???
the question is once it has train running through it will it still be the coldest station in the system???
It always was one of the coldest in the system. You know, the leave the tunnel open to the bridge there a the east end of the platform, anything can blow in.
Elias
ARGGGGGGG!!
Yet another clueless reporter who refers to the W as a "new" line. It's not a "new" line, it's a replacement line for the B in Brooklyn.
And they also negelect that the good old fashioned Q line should be using this platform as well.
:-)Andrew
That's a major OOPS!
It was a very enjoyable day at Shoreline this past Saturday.
The 3/4 Ton Crew (BMTman, Lou from Brooklyn, Stef, Glen, Sparky & myself) basically ran the RxR. Our duties included running the kids & their parrents to & from Santa with a couple of Birthday charters too.
Lou got the better of the two, the one with Pizza.
What made it even more enjoyable was, first there weren't too many operators (not much standing around time), and second it was just us.
So we paired up on a car, took turns for lunch or bathroom breaks & changed pairs in the process. We were going to pick up some of the ties that we had replaced a few weeks ago (brought some cloths to get dirty in), but our Dispatcher, also Mr. MOW, had already done that.
Then at the end of the day, as dusk fell, we made a couple of member only runs with our head lights burning holes in the darkness.
Mr t__:^)
I'm just so mad right now at this. I just need to get things back together. Yet another delay...
9346<>
You don't backup your data on your computer or floppy? The only place you can fully trust to store files is your own disk.
While riding the L line on the "snake-turn" from Sutter to Atlantic Ave., I looked down and saw a film-crew beginning to set up their camera equipment on Van Sinderin at the corner of Pitkin (right at the turn).
It was bitter cold, but those guys must have been determinted!
Anyhow, whatever shot they were setting up will certainly include the Sneidiker part of the El structure as the background.
BMTman
Determinted?
Sounds like a cross between determined and demented.:-)
I know, slip of the finger on the keyboard. It happens to me, too.
This month's Railpace has an article in "The Keystoner" section about a virtually abandoned SEPTA "Newtown" line. (The writer chides SEPTA for neglecting the line while providing token budgetting for it's possible, but unlikely, rehab.) I couldn't gather from the article if this line was an extension of an existing line (R?) or a separate line altogether. Given that I have had occasion to ride only SEPTA's R3 and R5 lines, and that I mostly know their regional rail system from their map, where would this line be?
Sorry, also wanted to ask which pre-SEPTA railroad owned the line.
The Newtown Line ran from Newtown PA to Fox Chase where it connected with the Fox Chase line. The Reading RR only electrified to Fox Chase so Newtown service was provided RDC's. There was also a diamond crossing of the West Trenton Line. The extra cost RDC service and the crossing made the line unsustainable and so R8 service was turnkated at Fox Chase. There was an R8 shuttlebus, but I'm not sure if its still running.
On the same lines, why isn't there an R4?
Ok, there is an R4, the model display that SEPTA has at their headquaters this time of year is called the "R4", but was there ever a real R4?
Michalovic
the plan supposedly for these new lines is to reduce overcrowding on the subway system around the areas of Queens blvd. Lex and 51st along to 6 ave. the routes of these lines will not relieve anything. lexington ave. will stay crowded. eliminating the q train completely doesn't make any sense. the only way to reduce the crowding is to run the q train to 71'st continental and have it transfer into an express train at roosevelt ave. run along 63rd tunnel and into manhattan. this will increase more trains and reduce the crowded wait at the stations along the line. this v and w thing is not needed,but i ain't no expert.
Good thing you're not. The W is simply a replacement name for the Brooklyn/Broadway B train.
The V will hopefully reduce the amout of transfering passengers (the kind that hold doors) at express stops in Queens. With a Local train and an Express train both going to 6th Ave, and the additional trains on the corridor taking the place of the near-useless G train, Manhattan service (where 98% of the customers are going) will be more frequent.
-Hank
The V will be one more service from Queens to Manhattan. Maybe there are better routings, but having four services into Manhattan instead of three will make a big difference. (Hint: If your train is still crowded, ride the local.)
The W is not an attempt to improve service; it's simply a temporary replacement for the B in Brooklyn when the bridge is closed.
It seems like alot of folks are interested in transit extensions around town. Count me as one of them.
After reading a reply by Peter Rosa that was in reference to another message mentioning areas of the city needing more rail service - suggesting the Javits Center should be counted as a place lacking in but needing more access to rail transit - I think I strongly agree.
Think about the West Side rail yard for the LIRR. It goes within spitting distance of the Javits Center. Has the idea of extending the LIRR directly to the Javits Center (a few Hundred feet from the West Side rail yard) and instituting shuttle service between Penn Station and Javits via the West Side Rail yard ever been discussed here in the past?
Has there been any discussion about this in City planning or through the MTA? It seems to me this one is like picking low hanging fruit. OTOH - what I DON'T KNOW about extending that line a few hundred feet could fill volumes.
Your thoughts??
I like the idea. I'm not intimately familiar with the area, but perhaps an arrangement like the WTC's PATH and E services can be set up. It shouldn't cost that much, especially since the yard is so close.
I also support Mayor Guiliani's idea to extend the 7 to Javits. In fact, I'd like the 7 to serve a piece of 11th Av, and have the 1 train extend through a new tunnel, branching from Broadway to 11th Av and ending up at the Javits Center as well.
The 1 in which direction? It's already quite busy where it runs now.
To All:
This is advanced notice that some time in the next few days, maybe tonight, maybe over the weekend (basically, when I have time), I am going to be changing the software that drives SubTalk and BusTalk. The *Talks will be offline during the work which will probably take two hours or so.
The primary and only reason for this is: Performance Improvement.
Once in place the new version should be a lot faster--its CPU and memory requirements are a fraction of the current software. (Estimated 2/3rd less memory/cpu per click.) I essentially re-wrote the entire WebBBS server, removing some seriously flawed code (amount of code to thread the index, old way: around 100 lines, new way: 8 lines, with recursion), and replaced a lot of the backend storage with a msql database. It's the database that buys the biggest improvement.
There will be some loss of features in "Version 1". Namely, those are: Searching messages by date, keyword, or author. I anticipate putting these back in after the new code is on line.
There may also be some things that don't behave or look the same way as before. I'll tell you right now I don't want to hear it. I'm trying to preserve as much of the old functionality as before, even if it was computationally "expensive". The cookies will remain the same, the killfiles will remain the same, and the message display options (Threaded vs. Non threaded) will remain the same.
I have a quick question. What is the bottleneck on your end of the system? The software or the connection? When I wait am I waiting on the connection or the software to chug through? Also if I was only using a 56K would I notice a big improvement?
I won't complain as long as the basic fonts and colours and logos stay the same.
It would have been funny if the SubTalk logo featured a speeding Redbird and after the upgrade it turned into an R-142.
Finally I was wondering if you could give give some warning to the shutdown like as soon as you know when you will be working on it. I would hate to have finished typing a long post and have it go into the eather when SubTalk suddenly became unavailable.
> I won't complain as long as the basic fonts and
> colours and logos stay the same.
Yeah basic functionality isn't as important, I agree.
-Dave
Dave, I'm sure that Subtalk and www.nycsubway.org will keep on getting better. as it has up to now.
Dave, whatever you do, there will be people who will NEVER appreciate that you do this on your own time, and own nickel. On behalf of all the people who DO appreciate it, THANK YOU.
I'm happy as long as you don't make me take a shuttle to Grand St.!
The wall platform has been reopened with trains to Canarsie opening the doors on this platform.
Construction continues on bopth platforms but both are open.
Subwaybuff, you're alittle late with the news as this has been the case for nearly two weeks now.
BMTman
please, can anyone tell me what color these trains will have? i heard that the V train will obtain the G train's bright green color.
Since it is supposed to go down 6th Ave, I would asume it would be orange, like the F.
The W will go down Broadway, so it will be yellow.
:-)Andrew
V
W
wayne
It'll be a blue and white line
Does anyone know what the small NYCTA building underneath the Manhattan Bridge at Jay & York Sts., diagonally across from the York St. F entrance, is? A ventilation building for the tunnel? Garage? Something else?
Fan Plant (Ventilation) building
-Harry
www.zdeno.com
Thanks!!
has anyone else got an e-mail from a subway_crash@my-deja.com
that reads
sbjt: redbirds
the israel govt has announced plans to purchase the new york city transit
redbirds fore their jerusalem subway system. They say that by using these
cars they can have added assurance that the jews will be killed in collisions
thereby saving Arafat the bother
if not you might want to spam filter that address now
Yep, I got it today like several other people did...it was a bulk e-mail. Others on the list have received it too recently. -Nick
I wonder why someone would send bulk e-mail with a message like that? There does not seem to be anyway to make money off something like that.
That guy used to post on the message board and has since been kicked off. Clearly, he is lurking and sending us messages.
How does he get the addresses just by looking at the messages?
If you put in your e-mail address, anyone has access to your email address.
test
Its not for money, I think just revenge for getting kicked off the board...cuz he posted msgs like that! -Nick
Hey, its our old friend Subway Crash Means More Money for NYC Transit striking back from beyond the banned list. He's like the villian that keeps comming back for the season finale. (like Wo Phat for you Hawaii Five-0 fans). I really think a vinnian is essential for Message Board Unity even if it means some spams.
Th problem is he is infesting the nyc.transit and ne.transportation newsgroups and has moved on to more. does anyone have any ideas on how to stop him from doing this? also have his past post been removed from the Archives? If they arn't I think he may be useing them to get some of his junk that he post to the news groups. Does anyone know if he ever posted anythin like this (i did not come here back in July?
subj Another passenger killed
Saturday July 1 6:35 PM ET
Woman Killed by N.Y. Subway Train
NEW YORK (AP) - A 25-year-old woman fell off a subway platform early Saturday and was struck and killed by an
oncoming train, police said.
Witnesses reported seeing Carolyn Waldron reading a book and standing in the middle of the platform moments before she
fell
onto the tracks about 2 a.m., police spokesman Alan Krawitz said. She was struck by a train and declared dead at the
scene,
he said.
The incident is believed to be accidental. ``She was not pushed,'' Krawitz said.
A friend of the woman told police Waldron had spent the evening
watching movies at a nearby apartment and was returning to
her home, Krawitz said.
Do us a favor and don't help him by posting his messages here, I think you've done it twice now.
I was talking to a dispatcher chief for CSX's (was Conrail's) Albany division last Saturday, bending his ear about his job. (He was off-duty at a mutual family gathering.) During the course of the conversation, he mentioned one reason why Amtrak trains get delayed on freight RoWs: Federal regulations require crews to be relieved after a certain period of time (12 hours, I think). If there's a choice between throwing an Amtrak train on a siding to wait a bit and having to drum up another crew, the dispatchers will choose the former.
Has anyone been in the City Branch Tunnel? I've walked the length of it and approached the portal at the Art Museum end, but I didn't have a flashlight so I wasn't about to go in. I'd love to see it though.
The southern entrance is right behind the Rodin museum on the parkway. I checked it out during a class trip. There's an RoW from there to about 12th St. where the Reading freight line ran. The line used to serve the Inquirer (Motto: All the news that fits, we print) and the old location of the Baldwin Locomotive works. The problem w/ exploring the tunnel is that there are 2 southern entrances and 1 northern entrance. This is because there is a fork inside the tunnel and the western route is a very active CSX freight line.
The first test post.
The first test post.
The first test post.
The first test post. 2
The first test post. 22
Well, the new code is in place. I'll be keeping an eye on things... bug reports appreciated but you don't really need to tell me about what's missing because I took it out on purpose (maybe temporarily).
-Dave
For those of you familiar with forgotten-ny.com, I am interested in starting something similar for Philadelphia. Only problem is, I have neither a digital camera nor a scanner. (I took two rolls of pictures of the Wissahickon Valley and some rail lines along the Schuylkill in Center City earlier in the Fall, but I'm a horrible photographer, and somehow none of the pictures turned out). I do have a web-server, however. If anyone is interested in contributing, drop me an email.
Thanks,
Brian
bgoconnell@hotmail.com
Extending the L subway to 11th Av and then up to Javits, while the 1 subway branches off Broadway and goes to Javits, makes for an interesting possibility:
1. Change the L line to IRT standards (requires changing third rail type?)
2. Create a new subwayline running from 242 St-Bronx to Canarsie via the Javits Center, using IRT-type cars (will need platform extenders at stations or rebuilt platforms.) Add more cars to train to compensate for smaller cars, if platforms allow.
3. Release the BMT railcars for use other lines short of capacity.
Of course, even if anybody liked this plan I don't hold my breath to see it happen...
Thanks for the great upgrade. It looks and runs fine. We should all chip in to buy your ticket and/or lunch on the next field trip.
Can anyone tell me what they are doing on the 2 in the Bronx between 238th and 241st?
Just wanted to point out that this week, Subtalk is getting 25% more hits than any week in October or November. I suspect because of all the press about the W and V trains, but I don't know.
We're averaging 21,500 hits a day this week (to Subtalk and Bustalk). Average for October and November was 16,700 hits/day to the two talks.
I do plenty of walking each day, about one mile to be exact. Down Sea Cliff ave to the LIRR station, the Miracle Mile in Manhasset, down Schenk ave in Great Neck, through East Hills, and this was all in the past week!
Walking on Canal is different, because it is crowded and slow, and can take 15 to 20 minutes to walk from Grand sometime. Perhaps walking straight down Grand could save some time, but the traffic jam of people could move over there was well.
(I have tried to post this msg several times and getting an error)
Error is
Couldn't insert message header into database.
subject = Re: What's all the complaining about the Manny B closing?
seq = 174353
poster = John
As of today, 12/7/00, two R-142 trains could be found in operaiton on the 2. They are 6326-6335, and 6336-6345.
It would appear that 6326-6330 has been here for a while (I would estimate 8/2000). This can go on the delivery notes page.
R-142As 7276-80 and 7286-90 are on the property. 7286-90 was spotted outside of East 180th Street Barn this evening.
With that in mind, 6301-50, and 6411-20 are here on the property, making a total of 60 cars. The 142As, 7211-90 are also here, bringing the total to 80 cars. You have at least 140 cars on the property.
-Stef
have some of you been receiving crazy e mailers from this ex subtalker subway_crash_etc...( you remember ) he keeps on sending me e mail & lists all of the others he sends e mai to as well i have had to delete his repeated e mails as well
has this happened to some of you as also ??? thank you..
This morning it looked like E trains were wrong railing from Union Tpk to 71/cont. and F were staying on the local track (D1) from 75 Av to 71/Cont. anyone know why?
It appears that the new code has the message index display without regard to killfile settings.
Has anyone else noticed?
Let's take a moment out to remember those brave veterans who perished at Pearl Harbor and the six that died at Merrilon Avenue at the hands of a madman.
MAY THEY ALL REST IN PEACE !!
North Terminal
242 Street-Van
Cortlandt Pk, Bronx
Dyckman Street
Manhattan
137 St-Broadway
Manhattan
96 St-Broadway
Manhattan
148 St-Lenox
Terminal, Manhattan
E 241 St-White
Plains Road, Bronx
E 238 St-White
Plains Road, Bronx
Gun Hill Road-
White Plains Rd
Dyre Avenue
Bronx
E 180 Street
Bronx
Woodlawn-
Jerome Av, Bronx
Pelham Bay Park
Bronx
E 177 St-Parkchester
Bronx
138 St-3 Av
Bronx
149 Street-
Grand Concourse
125 St-Lex Av
Manhattan
59 St-Lexington Av
Manhattan
Grand Central
Manhattan
Main Street
Flushing, Queens
Willets Point-
Shea Stadium, Queens
111 Street-
Corona, Queens
Special
Not In Service
South Terminal
South Ferry
Manhattan
New Lots Avenue
Brooklyn
Flatbush Avenue
Brooklyn
Utica Avenue
Brooklyn
Atlantic Avenue
Brooklyn
Bowling Green
Manhattan
Brooklyn Bridge
Manhattan
Grand Central
Manhattan
125 St-Lex Av
Manhattan
135 Street-Lenox Av
Manhattan
E 180 Street
Bronx
96 St-Broadway
Manhattan
34 St-Penn
Sta, Manhattan
Times Square
Manhattan
Chambers Street
Manhattan
Special
Not In Service
Route
(1) 7 Av-Broadway Local [(5) to The Bronx | (2) to Brooklyn]
(2) 7 Avenue Express
(3) 7 Avenue Express [(2) to The Bronx | (5) to Brooklyn]
(4) Lexington Avenue Express
<4> Lexington Avenue Express †
(4) Lexington Avenue Local
(5) Lexington Avenue Express
<5> Lexington Avenue Express / Bronx Thru Express
(6) Lexington Av Local / Pelham Local
<6> Lexington Av Local / Pelham Express
(6) Pelham Local
(7) Flushing Local
<7> Flushing Express*
<7> <--Express - Local -->(7)
(7) <--Express - Local --><7>
(S) Shuttle
Special
Not In Service
Notes and Observations
1. Queensboro Plaza, a station used as a terminal on the (7) line when stations south of it are closed, is NOT on the signs.
2. For the Lenox Avenue Rehab, sitckers were placed on top of the route readings for the (1) and (3) lines, which are shown with the reading they cover.
3. 111th Street IS on the sign, despite claims from others on this board that it does not exist (See posts in the archives for a thread with "111 Street" in the title.) I have photographic proof that this particular reading does exist on my Transit Pictures 15 page. (Follow the link below to get to my site.)
*. This reading appears on signs that have the "Helvetica" font. It doesn't appear on signs that use the "Aksidenz" font.
†. This reading is omitted on roll signs that have the "Helvetica" font.
Coming soon to a new web site.
According to the Jersey Journal, Hudson County will receive $1.7 million for "transportation aid", none of which will go to transit.
story here.
Straphangers Campaign's Gene Russianoff has a column in the editorial section of today's Times that ascribes the defeat of the Transportation Infrastructure Bond Act to its difficult-to find position on the ballot.
what is the fastest train you've seen?
...Riders See Subway in a New Light Washington Post 12/7/2000
1. Finally got to ride the R142 on the #2 line this morning. The ride was ok, just like riding the R110A. However, it took 90 minutes to get from 238th St to Atlantic Ave, with no major delays! Unnaceptable.
2. The R32's that are now running on the 63rd. St. shuttle have signs with yellow "S"'s and the route "63rd St. Shuttle" in them. I've never seen these before. Are they equipped in other car types, or are these signs special?
3. R32 3655 on the E line has deplorable floor conditions. I hope it's due for floor replacement soon.
4. Rode an R68A (5100) on the N line. Haven't seen an R68A on this line since the B and Q lines swapped cars in 10/97.
5. Why are the tracks leading to the lower level of the City Hall BMT stop closed off completely?
All in all, a fun excursion.
In just four hours today, I covered, the New York Cross-Harbor Railroad, the New York and Atlantic Rilway, the LIRR, Amtrak, New Jersey Trnsit and the 7 train.
I started out with my bike by Bush terminal and rode down into the Brooklyn Army terminal. There, I found NYCH Alco S4 #11 pulling out of the NYA 65th st yard. The guard would not let me take pictures so I turned around to catch the locomotive when it exited the terminal. In between the two buildings, the Alco caught up with me and started to race my bike. We were going heaed-to-head at about 20 mph. The engineer, George McClellen seems to enjoy it. I then got photos of the train going down first ave. and into the Bush terminal yard.
I then went to the R train which took me to Queen Plaza.
There, I went over to Sunnyside where I found multitude of Amtrak and NJT trains. There were also a lot of MoW equipment. A few hundred yards away is the the LIRR bilevel coach prep/maintennce site. I took my bike up and around the streets to where the vehicular entrance to this site was. I caught some of the action of a diesel railcr mover mounded on steel wheels shifted the bilevel cars round.
From the same location, I caught a NYA MP15AC pull a 5-car train out. A few minutes later, a NYA train headed by backwards GP38 and a MP15AC came by the opposite direction.
It was time to go home, so I went up to the 7 train station at Queensboro Plaza and got there just in time to see the Subway Series special pull into the station.
I also used up a whole roll of film today.
-Dan
Everything I saw will be posted on nyrail.cjb.net when the site is up and running again. The site is also now part of trainweb.org. I will keep you all posted. ciao!
This is from an email I received. Anyone want to help him(her?)
I am working on a film set in a Luxemburg studio. We have to build a NY subway station, including an arriving train. We where happy to found so much information, fotos etc. What I didn't find are exact dimensions, for example the distance between the tracks and maybe more details about sizes of trains. Where can we find that??? Maybe someone can tell us.
Thanks and kind regards from Europe
Regine
Realname: Regine Freise
E-Mail: FearcomLux@aol.com
Location: at present Luxembourg
On the southern end of the up town end of the station... the wall is set back from the train it looks like there once was a switch there for a second track to join there. does anyone have any info on this?
Is the platform at the racetrack still in use? The station is no longer on the map at the MTA website. I remember a year or two ago they were using it for northbound trains only.
Here is a link to the article on MSNBC
Where did the C train r32s come from when the r30s got retired
I've noticed that there is no longer a NEW next to each new post that has been added since my previous log-on to Subtalk. Has this feature been completely eliminated with the new system?
I rode on a #2 R142 train today, but until it got close, I couldn't tell if the sign said 2 or 3. It just looked like a red lamp. Naturally, I knew the train was a 2 because there are no 3 R142 trains, but eventually there will be. I like the rollsigns of the R62s better. They are bigger and clearer.
-Dan
Today: A Family Affair
Indiana Harbor Belt has been under 51% ownership of Conrail and
predecessors dating back to the days of the Michigan Central. As the New York Central assumed full control of MC, so followed the IHB going through Penn Central and into Conrail. Today, Conrail's 51% ownership of the IHB has been split up evenly between CSX and NS, with CSX the "senior" partner. NS has right of refusal on what CSX can do, and has required the IHB Dispatchers to remain localized and cannot be moved to some far off location like Jacksonville.
The other 49% is owned by CP Rail through the Soo Line and Milwaukee Road.
Through the years, the Harbor, Conrail and its predecessors had always
maintained a close family bond. This bond lasted well into Conrail, up into 1990. It was then that Conrail sought the lowest price way to forward cars through Chicago Terminal. All of the inbound and outbound Conrail trains that used to shine the rails of the IHB and Blue Island Yard were diverted to the Belt Railway of Chicago, another terminal line of which Conrail had a stake. The family ties
had been cut, although not completely severed. Blue Island Yard, long a joint agency with IHB and Conrail, lost its joint agency status at the same time. The only trains that normally operated in and out of Blue Island became a single ELIH/IHEL (Elkhart-IHB Blue Island) pair. This reroute of traffic amounted to several hundred cars per day away from the IHB and to the BRC.
A couple of interesting notes about the Conrail/IHB association; at the time of Conrail's formation, Conrail assumed all of IHB switching duties around Burns Harbor. The IHB had a route, the Miller Branch, that used to go to Burns Harbor and at one time, beyond it as far east as Dune Acres. Eventually, as there was no longer a reason for the IHB to go even as far Burns Harbor, they retrenched the Miller Branch. It is still in service for about 2.2 miles east of Ivanhoe to the old Budd Plant in Gary, where several industries have located and begun operations that require the use of rail service. There are another 2.7 miles of the Miller Branch still intact beyond there, but while I was still at the Harbor, the only thing it was ever used for was to store cars. The old overhead where it crossed the Chicago Line east of CP 497 is still intact and there is some rail on it, but it has long since been removed from service.
The other note is that as part of the Conrail formation, IHB was granted trackage rights on Conrail from CP 502 to CP 482 in Porter, IN. They never put these trackage rights to use as Conrail was handling all the business at Burns Harbor and the Port of Indiana for IHB. Still part of that family affair.
IHB management was then saddled with the task of replacing the lost revenue. They found the unused trackage rights on Conrail and decided to use them to pursue the Burns Harbor and Port of Indiana business. They began negotiating with the businesses there and worked on securing contracts. It was announced the intent of IHB to begin exercising trackage rights on Conrail's Chicago Line between CP 502 (Indiana Harbor) and Burns Harbor Yard. Only one fly in the ointment here, Conrail itself.
Conrail was contending that being as the IHB had not ever exercised their trackage rights in the past 16 years, they were no longer valid. For those of you unfamiliar with the trackage rights concept, they very basically work as follows; the host railroad, in this case Conrail, allows another carrier, in this case the Harbor, to operate their own trains with their own crews on its rails for a fee, usually a charge per car. The guest or tenant railroad as part of the
trackage rights deal, normally has to agree to pay for all clean-up and repairs from derailments caused while their trains were operating and involved in such an event. Even if it was not the fault of their train or crew. What this means is suppose a Conrail trains runs a stop signal and plows into an IHB trackage rights train and everything piles up all over the place. IHB gets to pay for
all the clean-up charges, including the rebuilding of track and the fees charged by the rerailing guys like Hulcher or RJ Corman. A tough one to swallow, but in most cases, standard under trackage rights deals. I'm not certain if IHB has this agreement in their trackage rights deal with Conrail or not, but I would be surprised if they don't.
I was never able to learn what the trackage rights charges were while an IHB employee. Nobody was willing to tell me whenever I inquired. I was told "it was a secret." I guess maybe they knew that someday I would be writing a column like this and bashing their management. As a couple of ideas of trackage rights fees, Norfolk Southern pays $100 per car to operate the one hundred miles on the Illinois Central between 95th St in Chicago and Gibson City, IL. That is $1 per car, per mile. They also had to pay for improvements to the line as well. This included undercutting the overhead on track 4 at Kensington and also the overhead under Court Street in Kankakee. They also paid to have interlockings installed at 95th Street, Milepost 15.5 (also called Wildwood) and at Gibson City, IL. What a company will tolerate to rip out its own railroad.
The Chicago Centra,l when spun off from ICG in 1985, agreed to pay $125 per car for coal trains they operated on the 41 miles of the former GM&O between Bridgeport and the Plaines Generating Plant in Joliet. This was for up to 15,000 cars per year. For any car above that figure, the cost climbed to $130 per car. PT Barnum was correct in his assertion that one was born every minute.
The IHB trackage rights case went to court and the judge decreed that the IHB had never vacated their trackage rights on Conrail, and therefore, they were valid and in effect. There were also charges of anti trust involved, but I cannot recall the details. This ruling allowed IHB the opportunity to greatly expand their business base. Trackage rights are just like operating and abandoning your
own railroad. If you wish to abandon your trackage rights, a petition of abandonment must be filed with the Surface Transportation Board and the abandonment has to be approved. A rail carrier may opt to discontinue using them without any application, but they have to file to abandon them. The Soo Line never abandoned their trackage rights on Conrail's Danville Secondary, even though Conrail abandoned the line itself. Now, NS has since purchased this line with the intent of putting it back into service. Someday, the Soo Line could conceivably
be operating across the Danville Secondary again.
As the guest railroad, you are also subject to the moods and attitudes of the host railroad. NS has discovered this from the IC. There are many days that NS probably wishes they had the Forrest District back. Their trains get screwed nine ways from Sunday more often than not. Any trackage rights railroad will tell you that fact. The Soo Line also gets treated like the bastard red headed step child
by CSX and UP between Dolton Jct, IL and Spring Hill, IN , and CSX between Bedford and New Albany, IN. The IHB was and is, no exception. And that is what will are going to study today.
When I joined the IHB in September 1993, they had already begun using their Conrail trackage rights. If I recall correctly, they had begun operations over the Chicago Line in April of that year. Trains were not very big yet, only 10-20 cars on some days, and the business levels were also not consistent, but starting to grow. Still, they made the run to Burns Harbor and the Port six days a week. Business was primarily interchange traffic with Conrail at their Burns Harbor
Yard for business to and from Bethlehem Steel and neighboring Midwest Steel. They also had some industry work in the Port of Indiana which sits directly north of the yard and just west of Bethlehem Steel's gigantic Burns Harbor Works. I made my first run on Conrail in October that year getting qualified for the run. My Engineer trainer was Bruce Campbell, a good guy and collector of switchkeys. Bruce gave me all kinds of information and facts about the line and
the run. I was issued a special supplement to my CORA (Chicago Rules
Advisory Committee) Guide. It was a section for IHB employees operating on the Chicago Line between CP 502 and CP 482. It had a track diagram of the entire route and a map of Burns Harbor Yard. Also included were the special instructions that included speed limits, restrictions and other necessary information. A certain collector's item.
We did the run out, the interchange with Conrail at Burns, the Port work, pulled our outbound cars from Burns and were ready to head home to Michigan Avenue Yard in East Chicago, IN. We had a few "file" cars in our train. These are dimensional loads; loads that are either excessive height, width or length. Before these cars can move, a file containing all the dimension measurements, and any speed or handling restrictions is sent out in advance. This gives everybody advance warning that they will be coming. The Conductor and Engineer also
get a copy of this file when they get the paperwork. Everybody is notified when there is a file car, including the Train Dispatcher.
The file cars we had were in excess of 11 feet wide. At the time we were ready to leave, it was, as I have always liked to call it, "TV time." The Conrail intermodal trains were known as "TrailVan" or "TV" trains. They had symbols like TV-11 or TV-22. They were legendary in modern railroading for their on time performance. Being that the wide loads would cause problems in getting trains past us, we got held in the yard at Wilson Road, located at the west end of Burns Harbor
Yard, for hours. Bruce told me this is very common whne handling file cars. We eventually got turned loose, but when we were coming into Gary, Chicago West called and instructed us to hold at the "wide spot", and to make sure the wide loads were spotted within the wide spot. This is an area adjacent to the old passenger depot here at milepost 496. The track centers were much further apart than normal as there was once a passenger platform between the rails here. We did so and were given permission to proceed west again after we met an eastbound van train. We barely made it back to the Avenue before we
outlawed on the hours of service.
As time went by during my career at the Harbor, I worked the Burns Harbor jobs many times. I enoyed running on the very well maintained high speed iron that made up Conrail's Chicago Line. It was also the only place we could operate at any appreciable speeds. (The old road man coming out in me again). They were also big money making assignments as well. That didn't hurt the cause either. During my last few months as an IHB employee, I worked the night Burns
Harbor assignment regularly. By this time, business had grown to the point that two jobs per day were necessary. The grand scheme was as follows; the daylight Burns Harbor job would go on duty at the Avenue at about 1159 daily. The plan called for them to get their train together and go east to Burns, deliver the Conrails and
then head on down into the Port of Indiana and begin performing the required industry work there.
The night job was on duty at 2300 hours and was to be cabbed out to the Port to relieve the daylight job who was to take our cab back to the Avenue and tie up. We were to finish the industry switching, go back into Burns Harbor Yard and pull the outbound Conrail interchange. Then we were scheduled to make the run back to the Avenue and set out the Gibson cars there, then head over to
Calumet City Yard where we were to set out the Blue Island business and return lite engines to the Avenue and tie up. A grand plan indeed. I can count on one hand how many times this actually worked in the two and a half months I was on the job.
Here's what routinely happened; the daylight job would go on duty at their normal 1159. They would get jerked around at Michigan Avenue Yard for hours. That was if they weren't coming out to the Port and relieving us there first. Most often, they were switching up their own train. They would get blocked as the Avenue is not designed to have numerous jobs switching at one time. It was basically an industry support yard. The IHB was also using it to classify
some of their business and some Conrail business. Another plan by great leadership falling right into place. Many times, one of the mains here would also be blocked with either a Conrail WDGI-3 (this is the Inland Steel-INTeck train), or an empty coal train out of Inland awaiting a CSX crew to come and pull it. Smooth, really smooth.
There were days the daylight Burns job never even got out of the yard. We would take the train from the Avenue to Burns and the Port, and later the following morning, get relieved there by the daylight job getting their own train back that day. This, or we would recrew them on Conrail while they were still enroute to Burns Harbor. This is where it really got fun.
One evening in October 1996, Conductor Dave Ramirez and myself report for work at our usual 2300 time. We are told we would be cabbed out to relieve the daylight crew. We were instructed to talk to Hick Tower to find out exactly where they were and meet them there. Dave called Hick, got the Operator there to fax over our Conrail daily bulletin orders and give our bid (mark up) with Chicago
West. Hick tells Dave that the train is still sitting at CP 501 waiting to go east. We inform the Yardmaster who is not pleased with this revelation. Into the Cimmaron we load up our stuff and head to Buffington Harbor. CP 501 sits adjacent to the two casinos in the Buffington Harbor region of Gary. At CP 501 the four main tracks from CP 502 to here end and become two tracks. There is also a connection here to the Fort Wayne Line (downgraded to secondary status
at this point in time) and a connection to CSX's B&OCT.
We arrive there and talk to the crew of the daylight train. They tell us they have been sitting there for over four hours already. They depart and I contact Chicago West and tell him we are the fresh new crew, and ready to proceed. He informs us that Burns Harbor cannot handle us at this time and we are to remain right there at 501. Being that I was looking at a stop signal, I guess I really didn't have
a great deal of options available to me. So we sat. We read, watched lots of trains go by, BS'd about various topics, observed people going to and from the casinos, and even witnessed an automobile accident. This was an adventure into itself.
Some guy backed his pick up truck on top of the hood of the car behind him and got stuck. He was rocking his truck back and forth trying to break it loose. We watched for a minute or two and decided to contact the police. We were normally issued a cell phone for all of the Burns Harbor jobs. I called Gary's finest and the adventure began. I explain to the police dispatcher where we were and what
we were presently witnessing. He acted as if he didn't believe me. I explained it all again and even gave him a discription of the truck and the car it was stuck on. We were a little too far away to get plate numbers, but I gave him the aisle number where they were situated.
There are security vehicles driving around the parking lots here all the time, but none were coming into this section. We spotted a few of them nearby but could not get their attention with the light from Dave's switch lamp. They were totally oblivious to the light shining in their eyes. Some security force, eh? After about 15 minutes since we first called the Gary police, we called them again. The guy
told me they had someone enroute. I made the comment that if this was
somebody getting beat-up, they would be dead before the law arrived. He didn't seem too pleased with that comment, but so what?
After about another five minutes, the guy finally gets his truck free and takes off. About that time, here comes the PD. He actually passed the truck involved in this episode. He drives along the fence line we get his attention. He pulls up to us and we explain what happened. I also mentioned that he passed they guy as he was fleeing the scene. We point out the white Honda that was involved. He drives over to it, takes a quick look without ever getting out of the squad car, drives back and proclaims that there is no damage to the car we pointed out. I told him that maybe he should get out of his car and look as it is hard to see in the dark while sitting down in his own vehicle. Judging from the size of the guy, that wasn't going to happen. He was rather overweight. If I was a criminal and he was chasing me, I
would never have to worry about him catching me. He would have taken about three or four steps and had a heart attack and dropped dead right there. But I digress.
After attempting to be good Samaritans and citizens, we get back on the train, still on hold. A little while later, the phone rings and it is the Avenue Yardmaster. He wants to know how we are and where we are at. I tell him that "we are just fine and thank you for asking." He laughs and asks again where we were and I respond "In the engine." I finally told him that we were at CP 501. He is all excited. He says he's "amazed we got the work done so fast and are already on
the way back." To which I respond, "Easy big fella, we are not on the way back yet, we are still waiting to go east. Burns Harbor still cannot handle us." He begins a tirade of really bad words, the kind that I won't use here as this is a family forum. But yes, I have used them on more than one occasion myself, so I did know what they all meant.
Finally, after sitting here for over six hours, Chicago West calls and tells us that we are finally going to get turned loose after the next van train goes east. Yee ha! We are well over seven hours old before we even turned a revenue wheel, but off to the races we go.
We zoom out to Burns nonstop and learn that he still cannot handle us, but will squeeze us in to get us clear of the mains. We head in at CP487 and pull the train in far enough to clear the signal. And then we sat some more. We finally get all the way into the yard and make our delivery. After some jerking around, we run around the rest of our train and head down into the Port to attempt to begin working there. We got very little accomplished as we were running very low
on time. After several calls to the Avenue Yard and the Back Room, we get our transportation arranged to bring us home when we expired. At 1100 when we did pass away, no ride had shown. It finally arrived around 1130 and we headed home.
The following night when we returned to work, there was the outbound train for this date still sitting in the yard. The daylight job had not made it back to the Avenue until well after 1600 and only managed to get their outbound train switched up. They had about an hour and half to work and Chicago West wouldn't take them even though they knew we would be there to promptly recrew them.
Conrail routinely came up with all kinds of outlandish maneuvers to us in order to keep us out of their hair. We once made it as far east as CP 497 in Gary when we were told we would watch "at least three eastbounds and a westbound before we would move." They all past and we still sat. Then, they had us pull east of the plant crossing over from track 2 to track 1, shoved us back west of 497 on track 1
to clear and watch another small parade of TV trains go past before finally letting us go east. Another time, the pulled us east of CP 491 at Millers and shoved us back into the siding there to watch a large parade on both tracks. This was due to the fact that Burns Harbor yet again, could not handle us.
It never ceased to amaze me how long it would take us to cover the seventeen miles between CP 502 and CP487. Then other times, we would zoom right across the railroad. Although that didn't happen very often.
And so it goes.
Watch for Part 2 of A Family Affair coming soon on a computer screen near you.
Tuch
SOURCE: NYCT web site
From 10pm Friday 12/15/00 till 5am Monday 12/18/00,ttrains will skip this station in both directions. Shuttle bus is available at these stations:
Broadway Jct and Livonia . The bus will not stop at Atlantic Avenue.
When I get more info I will post.
many subtalkers like the varied color bullets of the roll signs. Would this idea work:
Use white LEDs or similar and use a colored film/filter in red, blue, green, purple, etc. to change it to the proper color. Of course, it would be motorized
HOWDY FELLOW TRAIN FOLK,
I AM NEW TO THIS WEBSITE AND I MUST SAY ITS VERY VERY VERY NICE. I REALLY LIKE THE TRAIN PICS THEY MAKE ME FEEL ALL WARM AND FUZZY INSIDE. IM A BIG FAN OF TRAINS I REALLY LOVE THE 7 THE BEST CAUSE OF THE COLOR ,THOS ARE MY WORLDS FAIR REDBIRDS...YEEEEEEEHAAAAA.
I HOPE YOU ALL LIKE ME AND I LOOK FORWARD TO BEING YOUR FRIEND
SEE YOU ON THE SUBWAY,
SubwayTom
Can you stand another story about death by rail? How about 2 of them. The first was yesterday in bayport when a gentleman decided to end it all in front of a speeding LIRR train. He succeeded! The second was this morning at 8:01 AM when another gentleman met his maker under the wheels of a #4 train at Mosholu Pkwy. One report I read had the playful EMS people reassembling the body on the floor of the car. Actually, I think they have to account for all parts. If it weren't for the fact that these are human beings ....................
I recieved my notice to go to 1250 Broadway for my pre employment
interview.Does anybody know what I should expect?How long does it take? Will any other subtalkers be there?
Thanks,Rob
I was horrified to hear of the child who was killed on the subway this week. My heart goes out to his family.
But once again, I have heard the TA being ridiculed. While the TA is by no means perfect, we must ask why his mother didn't prevent this tragedy. A small child should be held close and kept in sight at all times.
The TA is not responsible here. Parents must learn that children are not objects. They come with responsibility.
Let's just hope the TA doesn't get carried away and lock all the doors in between cars.
Train Buff Headquarters
I was looking through the photos of the IRT book and one titled, "Four-track Subway Showing Crossover South of 18th Street Station" caught my eye. I checked out the track maps and it says that's where the Union square wreck was. Is this the same crossover? In the photo, it doesn't appear to be a diamond crossover like the track map shows, nor does it look like it crossed over to the right side track. The tunnel seems to widen to make room for another track, yet the track map doesn't show any of this. What's the deal here?
Photo in question
On the New Lots bound track at Utica, the provision for the turnoff to Utica Ave is getting cinderblock. In fact it looks like its going to be some housing facility over there. I will go over to Utica and do a full investigation as that station is getting a renovation.
Train#1935Mike
Just curious if anyone here knew that will be a new book about the Dual Contracts coming out in January : TUNNELING TO THE FUTURE: THE STORY OF THE GREAT SUBWAY EXPANSION THAT SAVED NEW YORK? It is written by a chap named Peter Derrick...Happened to see it on Amazon this evening...It runs almost 400 pages, so I expect that it is NOT just a picture book....
I saw a story on the news last night about Queens plaza. Apparently late at night, the area around E/F/G/R and N/7 stations, is quite a dangerous place, with people selling drugs and prostitution.
But there's more, the corrections department releases prisoners, some mentally ill, right onto the streets and gives them a $3 Metrocard to ride the subways.
Stay away from that area late at night, it's probably just as dangerous or worse than the walk from the L to the 3 which was talked about here.
Okay, for some reason when I upgraded my browser it decided to start clearing the message area after I click back after posting or previewing. Any way around this new "feature"? I stopped putting the picture in my posts for fear of if I screw up I'll have to retype the message.
Hey, Dave Pirmann, why do there appear to be fewer messages on the message board than there used to be? There used to be about 5,000 messages displayed at a time, going back about a month. Now, I only see about 4,000 messages. Did you change the way messages are displayed?
- Lyle Goldman
Had a great 7 express ride to Flushing this evening. Had the World Series train, it really looks great with the blue front, I wish they could keep it that way for a while.
The front window was new and unscratched and a pleasure to look out of.
"New" is now appearing in front of new posts, sitting here in front of my computer. As many folks have said, once again, this site continues to be a great job by David Pirmann. Thanks!
-cordially, turnstiles
Why do they call them storm doors?
Marty.
Does anybody know if the #2 IRT line at Water Street and Old Slip was deep tunneled or constructed via cut-and-cover? Thanks.
Does anyone think it would be useful if the Nassau line was still connected to the Manhattan Bridge? 6th Av rrains could be routed through Chrystie street on to the Nassau line. Reverse at Chambers and then over th Manhattan Bridge. Would that have helped any of the problems with all the proposed plans and such. Just an idea.
Shawn.
For all those interested in this trip: it will be happenning this Sunday at 11:30 a.m. at the 36th Street fare control area.
See 'Upcoming Events' for full details.
The weather will be with us (40ish), so dress accordingly.
Hope to see you there!
BMTman
I wasn't able to watch for a delivery today. Did anyone see any? It was a hard choice to make, the significant other versus the R142's :) I had a Celebrity Deathmatch like vision of the whole thing :) If anyone spots any new ones let me know.
Shawn.
I am about to be hired for NYCTA motorman position and wondered what the promotional possibilities are. What kind of exams commonly come up? Are they promotional or open? How often does one see jobs up for bid? Are bids only in the motorman category?
Any info on working conditions, such as: would I have to spend a long time on an extra list, with horrible days off?
Thanks for any advice.
We spoke before the election about who would be worse for transit. The worst case scenario has occurred. The Republicans now control everything, and transit is not a big deal in their states. They'll either try to cut it, or redirect their way. As for Hillary, she's spoken about her priorities, and transportation isn't one of them. It's something she can give up to get something else -- more health care spending.
Looks bad, very bad.
Does anyone know how the conversion to B-division-style signaling is progressing on the #2/5 in the Bronx? Last I'd heard, some contrsuction had started but I've heard nothing since. I was hoping to have made it up there today, but I'm a little too under-the-weather to do much of anything for the next few days.
Thanks in advance.
PJ Dougherty
This weekend, trains will be single tracked from National Airport to Braddock Road. Why couldn't Metro have all yellow line trains terminate at National Airport and operate a shuttle from Braddock Road to Huntington? The other possible scenario is have the blue line terminate at National Airport and have the shuttle from Braddock Road to Franconia-Springfield but I think the Franconia-Springfield branch is more heavily used, thus having shuttle trains doesn't work.
FAQ:
Where do trains turn around at National Airport?
The center track. It was used to turn around trains from 1997 until 1991. There is no diamond crossover at National Airport.
Why don't shuttles turn around at King Street?
No crossover. Trians could turn around north of Braddock Road. There is a diamond crossover allowing this north of the station.
Now, any questions/comments about this idea?
I have been away for mthe brighton line for a bit and while coming from school i was took the N to Coney Island trnasfered to the D then switched to the Q. as usual the Q blew past the D until we hit the hill after Avenue H the train just slowed down. why? i thought perhaps there was track work going on so i idimissed that to being only a one time deal. well every day afterward the same thing and there was no construction was going on. so what gives Why is the ta slowing down the d and q trains like that i takes them 2 mintutes to enter the and stop at newkirk completly ( it med this a couple of times) so why do this in the first place especially during the rush hours?? thank you
Friends;
I have been away with only sporadic postings lately; for that I apologize. I hope to make some small amends with this one.
Night time flagging work is never easy but when we do it out on the elevated structure a new dimension is added. Every step is already a danger but now it's harder to see it as well. The work being performed that I am flagging for is on the BMT's Eastern division is station rehabilitation. Comprehensive restructuring of platforms, canopies, stairways and electrical appointments. Chauncey, Gates, Lorimer, Etc. I am sure many of you have seen the stations as trains bypass them, so I won't bore you with details you likely know.
The unique thing I see here is the time of the work. It's unusual for the Transit Authority to do this type of outdoor work at night. Hammering, gernerators, cranes all contribute to the local noise pollution. To make matters worse we have to set up caution lamps to slow motormen down and that requires them to sound their horns. At 3 AM. The people who live alongside the line haven't been saying anything to us but I just know they couldn't be happy to hear this.
The whole of the station I have been working at(Gates)is a mess. The J1 platform has had almost it's entire edge replaced and now the stairways are going in. Last night a crane was hanging the columns to support the platform's rear edge wall. Steel workers were bolting the canopy supports and welders attaching handrails and steps to the stairways.
Working in the subfreezing weather, I have great admiration for their work. I myself have taken to wearing several layers of clothing under a heavy parka. Even then I descend every so often to the old, closed mezzanine level at the South(East)end of the station. There in the electrical distribution room (now you know what EDR stands for) the 600 volt heaters do a great job of fighting away the cold. The space has been gutted and cleared and exists now only as an area for the electrical rooms.
I find it odd that that end is the actual Gates Avenue end. The end of the station that's open is at another street altogether and yet the station retains the Gates Avenue name. I also know many of the other stations along the line feature similar oddities.
I noticed last night when I walked out along the structure to retrieve my caution lamps that Lexington Avenue is a mere 800 or so feet from Gates Avenue station. I'm sure many of us remember there used to be another of the BRT's old El lines that had a junction here. I looked and looked but there appears to be almost no evidence of it's past existence. I did find a torched away bracket where steel from one line met the other but it would have been easy to pass and without prior knowledge of the line's existance you would have never known.
Happy Holidays!
The Transit Professional
Believe it or not, I actually saw my favorite rolling lemon prominently displayed in a clothing commercial today. The commercial was mostly filmed in the interior, so the slanted door pockets and porthole front window was a dead giveway. They did a complicated dance number inside the car, so I'm suprised they chose this particular car to do it in (it becomes obvious at the end that it was filmed at the transit museum). Those foward facing seats give less room to move.
Anyway it's nice to see my favorite cars get some recognition, even if 99.9 percent of the people who see the commercial won't know it.
A hip-hop clothing designer called "Rat Race Designs" has a line of t-shirts called "BMT Lines," with BMT standing for "Bomb Mass Transit." They sell one design with a B, D, F, M, N, or R bullet. Personally, I find it disgusting that not only do they advocate vandalism, but they use MTA logos to do so. Their website is www.ratracedesign.com. I came across these guys looking for subway-related items on e-Bay; their shirt is under the heading "BMT Line NYC Subway Train Tee GRAFFITI Skater." On the bright side, they also produce clothing for some bands, one of which is called R22.
Dave, I don't think my SubTalk page is auto-refreshing anymore. Is this a bug or has it been temprarily removed?
There was an earlier post explaining how the TA will never use I or O because they look like 1 and Q. Well then why are they using the V train? When I see V train I read it as the 5 train. Remember Pig's handle Eugenus V. Train? He was refering to the 5 train there as well. The TA should respect those who are fimilliar w/ Roman Numerals and avoid this kind of confusion.
"Rocky Vee, that was the 5th one!"
Hi,
Does anyone know why the 4, 5, and 6 were down tonight? The busses were *packed*.
Thanks,
Chris.
Greetings,
Lately I have been very busy with school and haven't updated my website. I got a new digital camera tonight and decided to make an update to my website that highlights my collection of NYCT "stuff". It's hard to explain... just check it out at www.zdeno.com and click on "My Collection".
I also redid all of the images (853 of them!) during the past few weeks so they look sharper and have a better overall quality. Please take a look and let me know what you think. I plan on taking a trip tomorrow (does anyone want to join? - I was thinking about the Rockaways if there isn't a G.O..) to play with the new camera so you can expect another update on Monday. (This will include Doug's waterfront tour as well). The New camera takes images twice the size of the ones currently on the website and also has a zoom so you can expect image quality to be greatly improved on all future updates.
-Harry
The Other Side Of The Tracks: A Website Devoted To The New York City Subway
Passed northbound towards East 180th Street at 10PM with the usual assortment of SBK Locos and Number 73 to round things out!!!
-Stef
While working the C this morning going northbound, I noticed that we were going unusually slow moving into Canal Street. I know that there are timers going into this station, but we were going really slow. I opened my cab window and peeked out only to see a bright, lunar-white light shining at me. They turned on the wheel detector in the station!
With the slow speed limit of the detector (15mph or less) entering and leaving the station, especially going over the switch, it added 3 minutes to the travel time. And going southbound was the same way! What was wrong with leaving the timers? Does anybody know?
How long should it take to get from Forest Hills to Coney Island tomorrow(Sat)on the F train???
I am allowing myself 21/2 hours. Sound realistic?
Finally posted new video captures of Chicago's "L"/ Subway including last month's historic car move preparing for Dec. 9 Skokie Shops Open House. Questions gladly solicited.
http://community.webtv.net/ChicagoPCCLCars
David Harrison
I realized this a few days ago, but forgot to post about it. The R-142 storm doors are designed to spread apart when opened. When one is pulled in one direction, the other will move in the opposite direction. However, if the train were to suddenly jar to one side, both doors would have the same force exerted on them in the same direction, and that combined with the thing that makes them close automatically will keep the doors shut. Even with the door latches not catching (which happens somewhat often on the 142) I never once saw the doors swing open.
Watch, the Daily News will suddenly demand R-142 style doors be retrofitted into all trains...
What happened to messages 151000 to 169998?
On a southbound number two train today, I observed a young mother helping her young son urinate between the cars. Now if this boy had fallen, I bet she would have had a lawyer hired before his body got cold. I respect the opinions of all the wonderful and intelligent people on this site, but I must stick to my guns. Parents must keep a closer eye on their children. Also, when did all this suing crap start. I'm scared to death to get into a fight nowadays. Not because I might get my butt kicked. I'm scared because I don't want to get sued!!!!! What happened to the days when we settled things like men. I know I sound like an old codger, but I'll remind you all that I'm only 23.
Train Buff Headquarter
There was mention of a power disruption on two major IRT lines on Friday.
I was in Flushing and the lights seemed to briefly blink just after 5pm. Was there a city wide voltage drop or something?
Tonight we study "Hot iron on cold steel."
The name Hot Times really qualifies for today's feature. We're going to discuss the molten iron "Bottle Trains" that are operated in the Chicago area. Today Norfolk Southern, prior to them Conrail, and Conrail predecessors Penn Central and Pennsylvania have been operating bottle trains between what is now Acme Steel's 110th St Furnace Plant and their Riverdale Steel plant since the mid 60's.
These are amazing trains as theirs is truly the hottest commodity on the railroad. MolteniIron is loaded into the bottles at around 2500 degrees F. This iron is transported to the Riverdale plant and made into steel.
Conrail is not alone in this type of traffic though. As required, IHB,
Chicago Short Line, EJ&E and Chicago, South Shore & South Bend have used bottle trains to transport molten iron between mills in the Chicago and Northwest Indiana region. Much of this traffic is due to the rebuilding of a particular plant's blast furnaces that produce the iron. When US Steel was rebuilding furnaces, they purchased molten iron from Acme. When LTV was rebuilding their furnaces, again Acme to the rescue. When Bethlehem was rebuilding furnaces, US Steel
came to the aid selling iron to them.
In the case of the Acme to LTV and Acme to US Steel moves, the IHB played a part in handling this business. The EJ&E and South Shore teamed up for the US Steel to Bethlehem Steel moves. Chessie System contributed to these moves as the EJ&E used temporary trackage rights from Curtis in Gary to Miller on Gary's far east side to interchange the trains to the Shore. It was a better and faster connection than the normal interchange between these two railroads that is normally handled of Goff Jct, east of downtown Gary. EJ&E also handles
bottle trains daily within the confines of US Steels Gary Works as well, although their operation is somewhat different and I'll explain that later.
The bottles are manufactured by Treadwell and have 10 or 12 axles under them to disperse the weight. When operated on main track, they are separated by a spacer car, usually a gon or flat, and are restricted to 10 mph loaded and 15 mph empty on main track and 10 mph within interlocking limits. They have a total weight of about 340 tons in each car when loaded. They are equipped with an electric motor that is plugged in at the unloading site and slowly rotary
dumped. It takes 30 to 45 minutes to unload one, about the same time it takes to load one. Each car is lined with firebrick to keep the iron from burning through the sides. Periodically, they need to be relined as the brick begins to deteriorate over time from the intense heat. On occasion, the brick will deteriorate before the car is due to get a reline. When this happens, a "burn through" occurs and the hot iron actually burns a hole in the side of the car and begins to leak out. I have heard of this happening on the main line, but never actually witnessed it. I have however, seen it occur within Gary Works.
The bottles are loaded, made up into a train, not exceeding 5 loaded
bottles and are then transported. A small geep or a switcher normally provide the motive power. Conrail assigned GP15-1's for these assignments for years in the Chicago area. IHB used their switchers. The trains are moved in a priority fashion once released from the furnace plant. The load remains extremely hot for several hours, but they don't want to take chances of being delayed. Once the temperature drops below a certain point though, the molten iron cannot
be used as it loses its integrity. Unlike coffee, it cannot be reheated.
When the IHB runs their bottle trains, they use the NS River Branch
Industrial Track out of 110th St, connect to the SC&S Industrial Track and head to Calumet City, proceed through the yard there and head east reaching the IHB main line at Hohman Tower in downtown Hammond. They head to CP Gibson where they make the left turn, enter the Kankakee Line and head north crossing NS's Chicago Line at CP 502 and entering IHB's Lakefront Yard which sits just to the north of the Chicago Line and the EJ&E's Lakefront Line. I should mention this is
the routing for trains enroute to US Steel. The bottles are hauled to the east end of the yard where they are interchanged to the EJ&E and the J handles the cars via the Edgemoor Lead to Kirk Yard in Gary, around the yard and into US Steel's sprawling Gary Works facility, now the largest plant in their system. The J hands the bottles over to US Steel crews with their own fleet of various EMD switchers
equipped for remote control operation. The Steel crews will spot the cars at the #1 BOP (Basic Oxygen Plant) or the #2 Q-BOP shop for unloading.
Molten iron enroute to LTV's plant in East Chicago take a left turn at CP502 and enter the Chicago Line for a very short stretch to Hick, over the Indiana Harbor Ship Canal and then cross over to CSX's Lake Sub. This is the former B&O Passenger Main. The LTV Marks Plant in East Chicago is reached from the Lake Sub, crossing the EJ&E Lakefront Line to reach the facility and the cars are delivered into the plant where an LTV crew handles the cars from there using LTV power. LTV has a fleet of SW1000's with slugs all painted in a bright
red and white scheme and also equipped for remote control operation.
The J's operation within Gary Works is of a much different nature than that of the IHB or Conrail. First off, the bottles used within the mill are not equipped with air brakes. They are hauled around using only the engine brakes for stopping. 10 MPH is the maximum speed and trains must stop and protect the road crossings. US Steel calls this safe. The real reason is the private contractors that
Steel employs to transport products around the facility hires those that are unaware of the fact trains cannot stop on a dime and that trains have the right of way. They obviously cannot read either as they cannot seem to understand stop signs and crossbucks. There have been collisions involving trucks and trains in the plant. Instead of doing something about the drivers, they stop the trains. I wonder if
these truck drivers have enough money to buy a CDL in Illinois?
The J crews that handle the bottle trains are employed by the EJ&E. US Steel has a contract with the J for this work. They are charged a five figure number per month per job for each bottle job they operate. Also, the J doesn't call them bottles, they call them ladles. While I was there, they had five or six jobs per shift to handle the chores between the four blast furnaces, #4, #6, #8 and #13,
which was gigantic. #13 was switched by Steel crews and not J crews.
The #4 furnace was a continuous caster. When they started a cast, it
continued until the product was all tapped. This meant a job had to be there constantly to spot and pull the bottles. This was the best job in the mill, or at least I think so anyway. We would set two empties under a spout on the west track, with the one closest to the engine spotted first. There was a spacer car between the engine
and the first car. Another empty was spotted under the spout on the east track.
A wand came down, a fire would be ignited and the interior of the first car would be heated. Then, the molten iron was tapped and the cast would begin. Slowly, the liquid iron would begin to flow into the bottle. We would inform the Mill Yardmaster what time the cast began. It would take 30 to 45 minutes to fill the car depending upon its size. There were two different sizes used in the mill, some weighed in at 340 tons or so loaded and the others weighed in at around 420 tons loaded.
When the first car was full, they would tip the spout over to the east track and begin filling this car. A Steel employee would call and OK us to spot the second car. I would pull back one car length to the marker located outside my window. It was nothing more than a piece of scrap lumber that somebody drove into the ground, but it worked. They would give the okay and we waited again. We would notify the Mill Yardmaster when they began to load the second car. He would
then arrange for another bottle job to bring more empties over to us for respotting when they were needed.
After spotting the second car, the spout would be turned back over the that car and it would be filled. When it was fully loaded, the spout again would be directed to the car on the east track and we would be given the okay to pull the two loads out. We would set them over, reach out and grab the two new empties and respot them. They would go ahead and fill that car on the east track. We would then pull it and set it over and notify the Yardmaster that it was full and
respot an empty there. This went on 24 hours a day, seven days a week. I actually got forced onto this job for a few weeks as I was the youngest Engineer and it was a permanent vacancy.
#13 was also a continuous caster with several more spouts and cars spotted and being loaded simultaneously. Steel crews handled the chores at #13 and would set the loads out for a J crew to pull and grab the empties that a J crew delivered.
The other furnaces, 6 and 8, would only have to pulled and respotted as required. If I recall correctly #8 had a short steep drop into it and if you weren't careful, you could crash through the wall there. From what I was told, it had been done in the past on more than one occasion. DOH!
When the loads were pulled, we would take them over to the scale and spot them for weighing. The scale man would then use a long pole mounted on a bracket and dip a measuring device into the bottle. This was to measure the sulfur content. If it was high, the bottle would be moved over to the desulfurization plant. They would be set out here and a Steel job would grab it and spot it under the spout inside the plant. A long pipe and stirring device would be lowered into the molten iron, and heated calcium carbinate would be injected and the stirring device would mix it into the iron to reduce the sulfur content. It put on quite the light show at night. A steel job would then take this bottle over to the #1 BOP Shop and set it for unloading.
Iron that didn't need the desulfurization treatment would get delivered to the #2 Q-BOP Shop and a Steel crew would spot it for unloading when they were ready for it there. This assignment used a switcher with a slug as they were shoving two fully loaded bottles up a very short and steep grade.
We would pull the empties set out by the Steel jobs at the #1 and #2 Shops. The Mill Yardmaster would coordinate with the furnaces where to send the empties next. The bottles were not assigned to a articular furnace, but instead were free runners throughout the mill. The Mill Yardmaster was located at the scale along with the scale man and the Movement Coordinator from Steel.
This was a very well run and well coordinated operation. Communication
played a big factor here. They didn't want to take the chance of something going wrong and not having empties in position for loading. When the furnace was ready to cast, it was ready now, not in fifteen minutes or "whenever we can get a chance to get cars over to you." It was now, period. If they didn't get their cars and couldn't start the cast, they had "pull the wind" on the furnace. This meant the oxygen feed into the furnace and the gas it was mixed with were shut off and
the fire went out. If this happened, it was monumental trouble. They cannot just re-light the fire as it were. The furnace is shut down. The iron inside had to be dumped. This is extremely expensive and time consuming. And if it occurs and it is a railroad error, somebody will get fired.
Pulling the wind account a railroad related failure hadn't happened in
several years. Sometimes due to problems within the furnace, it would be done though. If the furnace was due heavy maintenance, they would shut it down after the last cast was completed. When the scheduled repairs were completed, the furnace would be slowly fired back up. It took several days to get it to operating temperatures, and the first few casts out of it were usually dumped as they are not of the quality of iron required for the steel making process.
There was also the "cinder train." This was made up of eight smaller open top bottles that resembled cups sitting on saucers that were used to haul slag to the dump. Slag is the by product or impurities skimmed of the iron as it cooks. There used to be trains going back and forth to all the furnaces at one point in time. But Steel built "dry pits" adjacent to all the furnaces. Slag would be dumped
into the pits, allowed to cool, broken up and the loaded into trucks and hauled off to the dump. Even had truck competition inside the mill. At one time, the J operated a truck line within the confines of the mill, but lost the contract in the early 90's to an outside source. These trains would dump a couple of times a shift with
slag from each furnace. There was only one furnace left using the cinder trains to dispose of slag while I was there. It was either #6 or #8, I cannot remember for sure. There would normally be two trains a shift from this furnace.
We would haul the cinder train to the dump which was several miles west of the mill. We would spot them for unloading. There was a large deep pit just west of the track with water spraying into it. We would uncouple and run about a quarter mile south of the pit and sit and observe. A machine operator would come out and connect air lines to the cars. He would then dump them one at a time rotary style into the pit. But not very slowly, just start it and over it went until it reach full dumping position. The slag would pour right out. It was quite the sight at night. Plus lots of noise too. Once in awhile, there would be a little bit of iron in the slag. When that iron hit the water, there was quite the explosion. It would rock the engine rather intensely when it happened. When he was finished dumping
them, he would give us the signal and we would run around them and take them back to set out at the furnace.
When there were problems at the #1 BOP or #2 Q-BOP, they could not use all the iron produced. They could not stop iron production, so the iron would just sit around very slowly cooling off. We would wind up hauling the coolest iron off to and it would get dumped into the pit. That was really the sight. It made the a Fourth of July celebration look tame. And loud too!
While the bottle jobs in the mill were pretty good to work, it was a filthy dirty environment in which to perform. Everything there was covered with a fine layer of dust and graphite. I would get the same engine all week. Every evening when I began my shift, I would wipe down the control stand, the handles and my seat. Yet every evening when I started my tour of duty, it looked like it hadn't been done in years. It also wound up in the nose and most likely, the lungs too. When I tied up in the morning, I would take paper towels and clean all that stuff out of my nostrils. My truck out in the Virginia Street parking lot was also always covered with ore dust, coal dust and what have you.
The bottles didn't have covers on them like the ones handled on the main lines. Therefore, if a pocket of gas in the iron exploded, iron would shoot out or spatter all over the place. Glad I was never a Mill Yard Switchman. Some bottles seemed to be just loaded with gas and would pop and shower everytime you started to move.
Now, what happens when the bottles derail. If they are empty, it isn't quite as big of a deal. When they are loaded though, the real problems begin. We had one derail while shoving across the road and into the scale one evening. With two engines and lots of blocking, we were able to pull it back up. This was a treat. When they were too far off or off in bad location, it was real trouble. One bitter cold evening in February 1994, a Steel job had popped a load off at #13 furnace. Our first move of the night was to head over and assist in rerailing it.
We arrived at the scene with all kinds of Steel officials and the J
Trainmaster. There was a Steel switcher and a J switcher already tied onto the car and they had been unsuccessful in their efforts thus far. We tied onto the them and when given the word, all began to pull. We would start and stop as instructed, working on this effort for over an hour. Little was getting accomplished. It was like trying
to nail jello to a wall. When we tried it one last time, the effort went semi-rewarded. The car moved a little and stopped abruptly, but the engines kept pulling. We proceeded to rip the drawbar completely out of the end of the bottle. That ended that. They had to call Hulcher.
While it was fun, the time at the J and the Mill Yard bottle jobs ended when I returned to the IHB in April of 94. Bottle trains on the IHB were fun to operate as they handled great and broke surprising well, unless it was raining. Then, they didn't seem like they wanted to stop. You had to use more air. Running bottle trains at two railroads gave me an opportunity to see a whole different angle of railroading, and also gave me a chance to see part of the steel making process in action.
It was also amazing to watch as the railroads actually responded to the customers needs. They didn't want to screw up this business and lose it. IHB could have lost the business to the Chicago Short Line. They are owned by LTV Steel. But good handling kept it with us.
And so it goes.
Tuch
This time it is my fault for trespassing on a subject that gets my blood up, but maybe all of us on Subtalk should hold a lottery to see which one of us picks the right date when we finally get a President-Elect. What a sick development this has turned out to be. Maybe we can sweeten the pot and make first prize worthwhile. How about a ride on the Sea Beach to Coney Island, a free ride on the Cyclone and Wonder Wheel, and lunch at Nathan's? My students can't believe adults could be so disjointed, assinine and ridiculous in our dealings, but, then again, maybe they really do. I don't know about the rest of you but I'm starting to really get PO'D. We're becoming a laughing stock around the world. We're better than that.
So now Astoria will have the N line, with the same amount of service as it currently has and the V line which will be extra (or is it the W). Either way, Astoria will be over-served while Brighton will be grossly neglected. Well, that's how it's always been.
http://www.bikemap.com/links.htm is a website mostly for bikes, but it provides great maps of all transit in the Philly/Delaware area. Much better transit maps than SEPTA provides. Also check out the "Old Maps" section.
Has anyone been in the Sunnyside train Yard.
How big is it? Do they give tours of the yards or do you have to tresspass to get pictures?
Ehud Barak has announced he will resign; new elections in 60 days.
A garbage train fire on the TTC Bloor line gutted the two car train and held up the morning commute. Here's the article from The Star:
http://www.thestar.com/cgi-bin/gx.cgi/AppLogic+FTContentServer?pagename=thestar/Layout/Article_Type1&c=Article&cid=976249930568&call_page=TS_News&call_pageid=968332188492&call_pagepath=News/News.
Fantasies and dreams. Hopes that the amount of subway lines that we had 30 years ago would come back soon. (I was never there though I wish I was) If these lines were here, if they were not demolished or if they were built things would be alot different. These things would have been a great help. We could bring them back but the cost is staggering from what I have figured out it would the MTA between 50 and 150 billion dollars to bring the second avenue subway, buy all of the new subway cars for the new lines, and completed the ever wanted the extremely needed IND Second System.
If we had the money we should build it no questions asked...it would be a big thing for the city. Cause everyone from every part of the city is close to the subway.
Christopher Rivera
Someone sent this to me and I just had to share it:
RUDOLPH THE BROADWAY LOCAL
To the Tune Rudolph the red nose Reindeer
Re written by
Edwin Morgan
You've heard about Alphas, and Charlie’s, Deltas and Mary’s.
Eddies, and Nancy’s, Frankie’s and Larry’s.
But tell me do you ever recall, the slowest of the trains that there ever was.
Rudolph the Broadway local was always up against the wall.
And if you ever rode him, you would even swear he crawls.
All of the trains behind him use to swear and call him names.
Then they would run around him, just to make him feel ashamed.
The one stormy Christmas eve, the T.A. came to say.
“Rudolph has equipment ills, so send him off to Forest Hills”.
Now all the trains behind him are also up against the wall.
Rudolph the Broadway local, somethings just don’t change at all.
Once again, the NYCTA has eliminated express service on the E and F trains. Today, as I write this message, all Manhattan bound E and F trains are making local stops from Continental/71st to Queens Plaza. All Jamaica bound E and F trains, are making local stops from Queens Plaza to Roosevelt.
My day started at 8:30 I left my apartment on 108th and 67th Ave(Forest Hills). I am on my way to Brooklyn, and figure I will take the F to the B. I think about walking to 67th Ave. but someone on this website told me that E and F would run normal this weekend when I first posted about Imaginary track work on Tuesday. Instead, I walk to Continental. An F pulls in, on the local track. I say to myself, "again"? As we are riding down the line, I look for the slightest sign of track work. NOTHING. No one was out there. Just express trains being rerouted for no reason.
On the way home, I catch a Jamaica bound F train. I get off at Queens Blvd. I want to wait for an E train, because I can look out the front window on on many of those trains. One comes. We are going local to Roosevelt. We leave QB for 36th. No workers are around. No one was anywhere to be found. Ditto for the rest of the stations.
We get to Roosevelt. We are told we are going express to Continental. Great. Along the route, I observe that all E and F trains are still going local, while at the same time, I am noticing that there are no work crews anywhere along Queens Blvd. Just trains being rerouted for no reason. We get to Continental. I walk upstairs, and see a transit worker. He is rushing to the bathroom. I ask him why the E and F never go express on weekends anymore. He tells me that there is "track work". I ask him "where"? He says, "they're down there". We both know the truth, and go on with our lives.
I just wish the NYCTA would inform the public that for whatever reason, E and F express service in Queens, WILL NEVER BE NORMAL AGAIN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Noticed that SEPTA charges fullr fare from senior citizens during rush hour, other times it's free, same with disabled people with the exeption of half fare during off-peak period.
I wonder would this policy ease congestion in NYC.
Arti
Lots of activity over the past two weeks on the high speed line.
As of Monday 11/27, 3263 was again being attacked by the vultures before its impending departure for East Boston. I doubt that there was much electrical equipment left under the car by the time it departed on Wednesday. In an unusual switch, 3263 departed two days before 3260 returned.
Meanwhile the rest of the fleet was starting to exhibit various problems, including no heat on 3238, a serious control problem on 3262, and a bad plug on rebuild 3268. Several cars are also exhibiting severe ride and noise problems.
I stumbled upon 3260's arrival at 2PM Friday 12/1. Hallamore was getting ready to unload it, blocking the south bus loop and diverting the 28, 29 and 31 to the opposite side of the station. By my next visit (just before midnight) 3260 was resting at the far end of the pit track where it remained until Monday when it was moved over the pit. By Tuesday the car was beginning its run in, operating with no passengers over the route. Paper "No Stops" signs were in the windows, while the sign box indicated "M MATTAPAN-ASHMONT". Overall it looks like 3260 came back in a more complete state than either 3265 or 3268, and seemed to be running well when I observed it. Both 3268 and 3260 lack MU connections at the couplers, though the cut-out boxes and levers appear to be in place. As indicated to me by Jonathan Belcher, 3260's headlight is somewhat higher than on the rest of the cars, a trait acquired in the previous rebuild. Hopefully the Mattapan crew will keep nine cars in service for the winter, giving them a little better cushion for a six car schedule, rather than pulling a car almost immediately as was done with 3263, which sat forlorn on the ramp track for almost 3 months. The next car due back is 3087, probably not until late spring or early summer.
Meanwhile construction continues on the "carhouse" which is about 100 feet long and extends over all three tracks. All of the side columns are up and are tied together with cross pieces at several points. The switch from the pit track to the ramp track is entirely inside, allowing five cars to be under the roof, along with whatever shop equipment can be located east of the switch.
UPDATE 12/9/00
Roof framing is now up for the entire length of the shed, with cross bracing going in. It looks like running repairs are getting priority over 3260, but most of the fleet is in better shape than last week.
Gerry
Self explanatory title. Will take pics later.
Train#1936Mike
Please email me, I need some info. Motormen as well. Thank you very much.
Train#1937Mike
I've added some of the signs I've been making, plus more of the bullets for the lines (some of the ones I made, plus some of rmarrero's (R36 9346).
It was hard to do this, because I used Corel, and when I place the codes for the tables and resize the bullets and then save it, it comes out all right, but when I open it again to make more changes, the signs (tables) are all discombobulated (stretched out to full width, backgrounds and fonts default), and the img sizes also revert to default. So I had to do it all in one shot and them upload it.
http://members.aol.com/bdmnqr2/linehistory.html
I noticed that Subtalk wasn't displaying my JPEGs and I went to my Homestead account to check out what was wrong. I looked and I have nothing in there!!! It's gone all gone.
-5200 Out Of Service
I opened a store to sell shirts and stuff at
I opened a store to sell shirts and stuff at Cafepress. Currently it's a good place to buy a blank shirt, mousepad or mug.
JerseyMike and I will upload designs and they will be the official t-shirts for our January trip.
We'll also have sweatshirts, mugs and mousepads.
P.S. I would like to thank Kevin Walsh for telling us about Cafepress.
Currently, I'm into the last 1/2 hour of the NBC 'thriller', "The Atomic Train". After seeing this movie for the 2nd time, I would like to postulate 5 lessons learned by watching the movie,
1) Not all turkeys have wings!
2)Poor movies and cheap wine don't get better with age.
3) The MTA should immediately shelve any idea of transporting nuclear waste by subway at night to increase revenue.
4)If you have only one son - never, never name him Chance.
5) Most importantly, we should choose our president with at least as much care as we use when we buy a toaster.
BTW - for those interested, the US Supreme Court has stopped the Florida recounts.....and while we're at it, can anyone explain to me how a senior citizen in Palm Beach County can keep track of 15 bingo cards but can't mark one ballot correctly?
Woefully inadequate ventilation, evacuation capability and firefighter access to the 16 miles of tunnels serving Penn Station is the topic of an article in Sunday’s Times. A major fire in the tunnels could be disastrous. Amtrak is aware of the potential catastrophic problem, and will never have the funding to address it.
I just bought SC3K today and I'm building a NYC without roads- just subways. Anyone else play this game?
I recieved this e-mail from a friend of mine who is a T/O....here goes.
RUDOLPH THE BROADWAY LOCAL
(sung to the tune "Rudolph the red nose reindeer")
Re written by Edwin Morgan.
You heard about Alphas..and Charlies..Deltas and Mary's.
Eddies..and Nancy's..Frankie's..and Larry's
But tell me do you recall...the slowest train of them all.
Rudolph the Broadway Local... was always against the wall.
And if you ever rode him...you would even swear he crawls.
All of the trains behind him...use to swear and call him names.
They would run around him...just to make him feel ashamed.
Then one stormy Christmas eve...the T.A. came to say.
"Rudolph has equipment ills...so send him off to Forest Hills".
Now all the trains behind him...are also against the wall.
Rudolph the Broadway local..something's just don't change at all.
HO HO HO !!
Bill "Newkirk"
His posts are very distasteful and border on porn. Check a few out! He must be banned from this board.
I was at the Community board 13 meeting Tuesday night and they had TA officials there to discuss things. They are going to tear the entire station down to the ground!!!! It won't get real bad until November 2001. Here are the service changes: 10/01-9/02 N Cut back to 86th Street. B,D,F Run to Stillwell 9/02-5/04 N Cut back to 86th Street. D Cut back to Brighton Beach with shuttle trains to West 8th Street only, F train to Avenue X only. 5/04-Early 2005 B, D, F to Stillwell. N to 86th Street. This means that from September of 2002 until May of 2004, The only train running to Stillwell will be the B!!!! That is gonna hurt the 2003 season BAD. The entire complex will be torn down to the ground and replaced. They did say that the 1930's "BMT Lines" facade will be taken down, restored and returned.
I would like to see some turboliner equipment. Is there a schedule?
-Dan
It seems as if some one has attempted to remove one of the "subway series 2000" signs on the south side of R 36 car # 9413. This train is VERY SPECIAL. It does NOT need to be VANDALIZED. Maybe some of us subtalkers here should try to get a special fan trip going for this very unique train since these cars are supposed to be leaving soon. Any ideas. Im also very happy that this train is performing so well even though it is a MIXED consist. 2 GE cars and 9 WH cars.
If Metrocard transfer would be only time based and not counting how many transfers you make during that period, it would be much simpler to implement intermodal transit, subway to subway transfers where they are not available (for example 63rd and Lex, Court Square Courthouse Square ...) Also bus routes (especially Manhattan) could be shortened, rerouted to improve regularity (who'd take a bus from 125th Street to City Hall?) Also areas underserved by subways in Manhattan (East Side, Far West Side) should have shorter feeder bus service, something like via 1/2nd Avenues from PAS at 34th to PAs at 23rd Street. What do you think?
Arti
I have a question for the board.I was looking up history of the early IRT trains.I got a description for the reason why the first IRT trains were called Composites, but why are the next set of trains are called Hi V's and Lo V's? The two trains are different physically, but why are they called that?
I would like to know if anyone has seen or has pictures of the R34137 vacuum train purchased from ANF Frangeco France in 1997.
-Dan
The CTA in Chicago is again running a Christmas Train. This year's edition is a six car train of rehabed 2600 cars with Santa on a flat car between the 4th and 5th cars. Yes Santa is real, the reindeer are not. Don't know how many layers he has under the red suit, but Santa stays at his post from end terminal to end terminal.
Usually the train operates on Saturdays, two round trips starting in the pm through about 1800. The train runs as an extra. Saturday, Dec. 9, the train ran on the Red Line. Its decorated with umteen thousands of bulbs and really draws arcs over section breaks.
Last Saturday the Blue Line was host and upcoming weeks it will be the Green Line followed by an Orange/Brown excursion. The train also does stints around the Loop elevated and participated in a food giveaway Sunday, December 3.
Before Saturday's Red Line journeys, the train gave rides at the unpublicised Skokie Shops Open House which featured a display of Chicago "L" cars from SSRT #1, 4271/4272, 6720, the 2000 Pullman Heritage "standin", and examples of each current high performance car.
Does any other system operate such a train?
David Harrison
On my visit to the SBK scrap yard with BMTman and several others, I observed the following in the yard: R-40 4427 and 4428 (Bushwick-Aberdeen Collision), R-42 4664 (Willy B), and R-44 5319 (Far Rockaway Fire), which sustained various degrees of damage, are no longer within Transit Property. Off to the big yard in the sky they go!
One could also find R-22 7349, formerly of the Signal Dolly, and Diesel 11, a one truck locomotive. 207th Street Yard and Coney Island Yards, which saw spring cleaning have that much more space without these hulks of cars that no longer function.
You could also find a pair of modified IRT cars, that sport silver paint. These cars were actually the testbeds for the R-142s, with futurisitic interiors.
There was much to be found there, and one has to wonder what else might wind up at 39th Street. I suspect the Concourse Yard R-12/R-14 pair is next, perhaps 1368,69, and 70.
-Stef
I believe that SubwayTom has nothing btter to do that disrupt the SubTalk environment with useless, unintelligent, immature blabbering that is in no way welcome in our message board. He is even worse that Salaamallah who at least posts coherent although sometimes controversial opinions. I will put SubwayTom in my killfile, and I suggest to you all to do the same.
-Dan
The Delaware River Port Authority, owner of PATCO, has flexed its management muscle over the previously de facto semi-autonomous transit agency. Story in Sunday’s Camden Courier-Post.
After reading "Subway Cars Of The BMT" written by James Clifford Greller I was lest by the impression that the articulated subway cars were the best type of cars that were ever used anywhere in the New York City subway system. The "Green Hornet" that operated from 1934 to 1941 on the BMT was in my own opinion the best of them all. It featured an aluminum body, photo-electric cells that turned on the interior lights whenever the train entered a tunnel, forced air ventilation, chimes to warn passengers of closing doors and was capable of one man train operation. The train was a five section articulated unit. I think that the T/A should look into building a modern version of this wonderful train for use on both the IRT and the BMT/IND divisions building 9' and 10' wide units for the respective divisions. It would be much lighter than the cars that are in use at this time and should require less power to move them which would save precious energy resources. It would also be more comfortable than the trains that are currently in use.
BMTJeff
After reading "Subway Cars Of The BMT" written by James Clifford Greller I was left by the impression that the articulated subway cars were the best type of cars that were ever used anywhere in the New York City subway system. The "Green Hornet" that operated from 1934 to 1941 on the BMT was in my own opinion the best of them all. It featured an aluminum body, photo-electric cells that turned on the interior lights whenever the train entered a tunnel, forced air ventilation, chimes to warn passengers of closing doors and was capable of one man train operation. The train was a five section articulated unit. I think that the T/A should look into building a modern version of this wonderful train for use on both the IRT and the BMT/IND divisions building 9' and 10' wide units for the respective divisions. It would be much lighter than the cars that are in use at this time and should require less power to move them which would save precious energy resources. It would also be more comfortable than the trains that are currently in use.
BMTJeff
I met up with the Subtalkers at the 36th street station in Brooklyn. My ride in was rather uneventful, I caught the 7 in Flushing, got off at 74th, took an R to 34th street (the R was empty), and a B to 36th. There were delays at 36th due to CI-bound B's going over the N line.
Only the bus ride (N21) proved to be eventful. Almost hit a guy who ran into the road signalling the bus (he wasn't at a bus stop). Needless to say we did not pick him up (we get alot of grumpy old men from Roslyn and Great Neck).
And it was packed.
But getting back to the tour, it was interesting to see delapidated tracks still in use occasionally. And the ol' hand throw switches were everywhere. The industrial waterfront was creepy like I remembered, there were guard dogs, a carcass of a dead cat, as well as sagging powerlines and sweatshop buildings that belong in China.
The railroad yard was interesting, as we saw what few business they had (a transformer) sitting in the yard. Some of us found old 3rd rail shoes.
We were hoping to get into the Army terminal but we were declined. All in all an interesting day, something I'd never do alone though. Going back I had an R32 N, which was behind the R the whole time, until 57th where we were held for a minute. Fast ride through 60th street, the 7, then a crowded N21 bus home. Well at least I had all new Orions (no Cummins) today!
I forgot a few important things. The sight of an R44 in the junkyard was interesting, the train had literally been stripped bare!
It's a shame these trains sit in a junkyard, they should be in a museum.
Also while heading home on the N, there was a horrible burning smell in Court Street and the Montague tubes, smelled like an electrical fire. This was around 2:30pm or so, and I wonder if there was a fire somewhere since it looked like Brooklyn bound N and R trains were backing up in Manhattan. It seemed I saw a train at every station on the S/B track.
Also I set up a new rail message board on yahoo
Check it out at
http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/railsandtrains
It's Here! It's Here! It's Here! It's Here! It's Here!
Arriving in Philly at 6:35 AM is the First Revenue Run of ACELA.
Load the camera. Charge up the video camera. Connect to the Internet. Tune in the scanner. Its the Season to be a Railfan!
NO, YOU ARE NOT DREAMING. THIS IS NOT A DRILL. ACELA IS FINALLY HERE and its comming to a North-East Corridor near you.
Is anybody going to get up early and greet it? They did a bit on Channel 6 Action News. They had a Chopper 6 shot of the trainset as it went through North Philly.
Judging from the turnout yesterday, at the Transit Learning Center in Bensonhurst, about 50% of the 1,200+ people called for the Train Operator Selection Survey turned out. The TOSS, is the next phase of testing for those on the list for Train Operator.
Hopefully, the Chief will have a story about this, with an exact number of those who showed up.
This is a very detailed account about how one actually becomes an engineer. As you can see it is quite a bit more involved that becomming a motorman. After reading this you will see why they deserve the title "engineer" and not something like driver or operator. BTW I never got a Part 1 about training so don't ask.
******************************************************************************
Today it is; Part 2 of Training
After spending some five and a half months on the railroad, the railroad
gods decided to do me a favor. A favor that I believe I have paying them
back for ever since. I walked into the office on the morning of 5 April 1979
after working some twelve hours, going dead and getting the always popular
cab ride back in. I happened to glance at the bulletin board and noticed a
posting from Superintendent Mike Kelly offering all Trainmen interested, the
opportunity in becoming Engineers. Mr Kelly had just recently replaced
Richard Turner who was transferred to Neff Yard in Kansas City.
I was dead ass tired and ready to hit the racks and dreading the thirty
minute drive home before I read this notice, but I immediately sprang back
to life after I finished reading it. I headed right for Mr Kelly's office
and told his secretary that I wished to sign up for the Engineer program.
She ushered me straight into Mr Kelly's office and we immediately started
discussing the program and its criteria. He had me fill out a form stating
my intentions and then sent me to see George Brown, the Road Foreman of
Engines on the Chicago Division. George explained all of the requirements to
complete the program and earn the promotion.
Upon entering the formal training program, I would be sent to North Little
Rock, AR for school. The company would provide transportation or I could
drive and be reimbursed. They provided lodging and meal money. We would
attend daily classes that included training films, lectures, homework and
lots of study. After this session was completed, I would return to Chicago
to begin my on the job training portion.
After approximately six months of OJT, I would return to North Little Rock
where I would attend more school, and then take the final exams. If I was
sucesful, I would return and George would sign my card and I would be
promoted to Locomotive Engineer. Should I fail either, or both of the tests,
I would be given a chance to train some more, return to North Little Rock
(this time at my own expense), go for another session of school and be
retested. I assured George that there would be no need to have a second
chance as I would do it the first time. He was glad to hear this and
welcomed me aboard. George would be a vital link for me in the upcoming
months as you will read later.
I should mention that at this point in time, it was not mandatory to take
promotion to Engineer. I was only required to take promotion to Conductor
within two years of my entering train service. The promotion to Engineer was
optional. This was changed in 1988 with the so-called "Halloween" agreement
made with the United Transportation Union.
As many of you may know, I always wanted to be a Locomotive Engineer. For as
long as I can remember I wanted to run trains. I believe I said "choo choo"
long before I ever said "mama" or "dada". I have no clue as to where this
ever came from as I have no railroaders on either side of my family. On the
contrary, several of my relatives were Firefighters. The closest I came to
railroad relatives were two uncles that attempted hop a freight train here
in Indiana while they were teens. One slipped and the other fell trying to
grab him. The both survived, but the one lost one leg while the other lost
both of them. Everyone used to laugh at me when they would ask me what I
wanted to do when I grew up and I said "Be an Engineer."
Anyway, George sent me back over to see Harold Cartwright (got it right this
time) to arrange a schedule. There were about half a dozen men and women
ahead of me that were already in Engine Service as Hostlers and Fireman that
still had to go through the program. I would become a Hostler and await my
turn. Haorld set me up with a schedule for training to become a Hostler and
then I would be turned loose on that job.
A Hostler simply put, hostles engines. This job required me to move engines
around the roundhouse and servicing tracks. I would pull inbound power up
for fueling, sanding, inspections and the like. I would spot power inside
one of four tracks inside the roundhouse for servicing. Actually, the
building was of a rectangular shape, but who ever heard of a
rectanglehouse? Myself, along with my helper, would switch out engines and
build new locomotive consists for outbound trains. I would turn power on
the wye as required, to have the cabs facing the right direction. I was also
responsible for making sure the outbound power was properly supplied with
ice, water, paper towels, tools, extra air hoses, knuckles and other
required supplies, and also that the cabs were cleaned and the windows
washed. I was also to make sure the power had been fueled as well. On more
than one occasion, power ran out of fuel on the road as nobody had
positively ascertained that the power was indeed fueled. While there were
people assigned to perform these tasks, it was up to me to perform the
outbound inspection to make sure everything was done.
Another set of tasks I was instructed to attend to was making sure that the
windows on the trailing units were all closed, the lights in the cabs turned
off, all handles removed, all class and number lights on trailing units shut
off, the awnings over each window pulled in and the multiple unit hoses not
in use tucked away in their holders. To this day, I still do all of these
little chores on my power. Talk about having something burned into the
brain.
I had several twelve hour nights of training to be a Hostler beginning at
2300 hours on 5 April 1979. My trainer was none other than Rowena, the same
girl who was with me when I burned up the 1741. Little did "Weenie" know
what would be in store for us in the future. She showed me how to cut in
and cut out the automatic and independent brake valves on the locomotives.
Weenie also taught me how to start a locomotive, how to shut one down, how
to set up the headlight controls and a few other required tasks. I was
turned loose after three days and began working the night trick, 2300-0700
with Wednesdays and Thursdays off.
While hostling, I began to watch, ask questions and learn as much as could
from the machinists and electricians at Yard Center Diesel. Several of them
were very willing to take a few moments to explain things to me whenever I
asked. This would pay dividends over all of the following years of my
career.
I graduated to the swing job which covered the days off of all the other
jobs and gave me Thursday and Friday off. Eventually, I wound up working
days with weekends off. The hostling jobs were despised by most, and were
also the lowest paying engine service jobs on the property. We were like a
bad case of diarrhea; they kept us running. I was in great physical shape
and healthy as a horse from all the walking back and forth I did between
units as well as to and from the inbound and outbound tracks. Also developed
quite the upper body strength from constantly climbing on and off all the
engines, although the time in train service also helped there.
Then, I was called and told I was going out into the yard as a Fireman. They
had hired yet another Hostler, so I had enough whiskers to make a move into
the yard and away from the nuthouse, er, roundhouse. This also gave me a
little more money as Fireman paid a higher daily rate. I started working
some transfer assignments that my little bit seniority allowed me to hold
while I awaited my turn to head to school. During this period, I managed to
get myself into trouble and wound up being disciplined for some 75 days with
no pay. When I returned after this little vacation, I made a promise to
myself that I would never serve time off again.
Finally in the summer of 1980, I got my turn in North Little Rock at the
Training Center. Myself and another guy from Yard Center decided we would
fly down. I don't care to fly and had to consume "attitude altering" liquid
refreshment to prepare myself for the flight. This day was no exception. I
could have been flown to Bora Bora and would not have cared that day.
We attended two weeks of school along with about sixteen or eighteen other
guys from around the entire system. We had hours of lectures, movies and
even a tour of the old Pike Avenue Shops, which were the largest heavy
repair shops on the MoPac system. We were issued all sorts of study
materials, of which I still have almost all. After our school, we went back
to our respective divisions and began our run as "Student Engineers".
It was then that I learned what one of the things the neglected to tell me
when I first went into engine service; the pay. I went from making around
$83 per day to $66.13 a day. I didn't get overtime until I had worked at
least fortyeight hours each week. There were no arbitrary payments. The
government, through the CETA Program, was footing the bill for our training.
This is what they reimbursed each railroad per man per day for our training.
Some railroads paid more than this rate, but not the MoPac. Undaunted, I
remained in the program determined to earn the promotion.
I made the rounds on all the assignments working with numerous Engineers. I
had a couple of really great trainers. One in particular was Howard Hanna.
Howard was a salty dog. Some said he ate gunpowder for breakfast and washed
it down with vinegar and lemon juice. I was told he would make my life a
living hell as he did not care for students. He made some students beg to be
reassigned. I was filled with all sorts of horror stories about the man. But
one Engineer, Stanley Pipinis, Pipi, did me a huge favor. After working with
with him for several weeks on an intermodal switcher at Canal Street, he
called Howard and told him that he would be getting a really good student;
one who really wanted to learn. It was a great move on Pipi's part. Howard
took to me like a dog to a bone. We really hit it off.
Howard taught me things that he didn't teach other students. He showed me
how to be in full control of the train at all times. He would constantly
quiz m about various rules, signals and his favorite, "where's the caboose?"
He would ask me where the caboose is right now. I would respond to the
approximate location and he would then have me call later and ask Walter
exactly where he was. I got really good at this and it has really been
beneficial for me. Howard also showed me how to keep unruly Conductors in
line as well. We had great fun working together. He made the training fun
and educational. The single best part of training with Howard was the day he
played student and I played Engineer. He took the controls and told me that
he was the green kid fresh out of the program. He knew nothing. It would be
up to me to explain everything to him. And so we began.
I had to inform Howard of every single thing to do. Everything. Whenever we
started the train, I had to coach him through it. Slowing and stopping were
also fun. It is far more difficult to tell someone to do it than it is to do
it yourself. And everything feels far different on the Fireman's side than
it does when you are in that Engineer's seat. Much of what we do, the how,
when and why we do it comes from the sense of feel. That feeling in your
seat. You really do run by the "seat of your pants." I must have done well
as Howard was laughing and joking and having a great time. We didn't get
into any trouble, no near misses or close calls, no panic stops. And old
Walter Hall on the caboose didn't scream once about a bad ride. After we got
in that trip, Howard went to see George Brown and told him he felt I was now
ready to be promoted.
This is a note about then as opposed to now; cabooses. We had to make sure
we didn't kill those guys back there. Slack action can be deadly. We had to
take the "boys in the back" into consideration when we did something on the
head end, be it starting, accelerating, slowing or stopping. Today, there is
no concern for the tail end. Well, let me rephrase that, there is not as
much concern for the ride on the tail end. FRED doesn't complain about a bad
ride. Should it get far too rough, he just lets go and falls off.
George Brown had been an Engineer on the Louisiana Division before becoming
a Road Foreman of Engines. He took the promotion and was sent to Chicago.
Some people didn't like him. Maybe because he was black, which a stupid
reason not to like somebody, but some people are just like that. George was
always very fair and decent to me. He took it upon himself to hold weekly
instructional classes for the students. This was not required of him and
other students I spoke with said they didn't get such an opportunity. George
covered different topics at each class. He would make himself available to
answer questions. He gave us pop quizzes. If he saw you doing something
wrong, he came and spoke to you about it one on one. He didn't make a scene
in front of the crew. He treated you with decency.
When I passed my exams and returned home, George called me to congratulate
me. He didn't have to, but he did it anyway. I think he was like a proud
papa whenever one of his students earned the promotion.
The last time I spoke with George about ten years ago, he was one of the
managers of Union Pacific's Engineer Training Program.
During my training, I had another epsiode that gave me an extended vacation
from work. But this time, it wasn't discipline, it was a motorcycle accident
that nearly killed me. Interestingly enough though, when I regained
conciousness and realized I had been in some sort of accident, I didn't
believe it was a motorcycle accident. For some reason, I had flashed back to
a near miss situation from the night before when I was at work. A garbage
truck had driven around the gates as we rapidly approached this particular
crossing. While we didn't hit him, it was close. Close enough that I had my
hand on the automatic brake valve and was ready to dump the air. Somehow, my
mind had me believing we had indeed hit that garbage truck. But the strange
part was that I remembered who I was out riding with and I was inquiring as
to whether they were injured as well.
As a result, I missed six months, one week and two days of work. I went
through several surgeries and hospital stays. This time off did give me
plenty of time to study though. And study I did. The girl I was dating at
that time Kimberlee, was assisting me in my studies. Most of this stuff
probably made no sense to her at all, but she put up with it just the same.
She remains a close and dear friend to this very day.
I returned to work in February 1981. I trained for another four months or so
and went back to NLR for the final session of school and the final exams.
The guy who I had gone there with the first time had been terminated for
participating some less than legal activities. This time I went with another
guy who was not too serious about the program. He was out partying
constantly (as opposed to my part time adventures) and was always half
asleep, if not unconcious in class.
The instructor, a man named John Wallace, reminded us on numerous occasions
about the penalty for getting caught cheating on the exams. The class just
prior to us had been victimized by two students who opted to take the
dishonest method. These two were caught cheating red handed. They were
terminated on the spot and sent home. There is no chance for vindication in
this situation. You are terminated, period. The unions will not even contest
this action as they do not stand for cheating either. We were reminded that
we were the first class held since this scandal and how we had all better
"fly right."
John was an interesting character. He was an older promoted man from the old
MoPac. His title was Assistant Manager Locomotive Engineer Training.
Sometimes he would get into a mood and share stories with us of his early
days as an Engineer and the things that could and did go wrong. He would
also recount to us stories of being a Road Foreman of Engines and having to
drive 200 miles in snow or freezing rain to meet up with a train
experiencing motive power problems. Apparently, wherever he was assigned was
always besieged with horrible weather all year round. He would tell of a
breaker that was tripped and merely needed to be reset, a fuse that had
blown and needed to be replaced or of an engine protective device tripped
that likewise, only needed to be reset and the unit restarted. Sort of like
a parent telling their kids of walking to school 365 days year uphill both
directions in two feet of snow. What John was emphasizing here was to do all
of the trouble shooting you could before getting somebody to come out a long
way for something simple.
On Friday of the first week, we took the operating rules exam. It was 670
questions. You had to get a minimum of an 80% to pass. I got a 90.5. I was't
too happy with this score as I felt I should have done far better. The
following Friday we took the air brake and mechanical exams. This one was
766 questions, again you had to get at least an 80%. I got a 96 on this one.
It was far more difficult and I did better, go figure! There were four essay
questions on it and they had to be right as each counted for five points.
They were on all the different brake tests. Each answer had to include all
the steps in proper sequence and without fail, had to begin with the phrase,
"Upon receipt of proper signal or request". John Wallace beat this into our
heads all of that second week. I am very strong willed, which some folks
confuse with being hard headed, but they are mistaken. That phrase not only
made it through my skull and into the brain, it is now imbedded in there so
firmly as to make one think that I was born with that knowledge. In fact, I
can still recite them word for word and know what it all means. But
nonetheless, a few still managed to forget that phrase.
When all was said and done, all of us but one, passed the exams and were
promoted. Two guys from Kansas even managed to get 100% on both exams. I was
impressed. The one failure was my comrade from Chicago. He crashed and
burned on the first exam and went back to Chicago right after that as his
wife then went into labor. But I don't believe his flunking induced that
labor though.
So when it was all said and done, I received my promotion to Engineer on 17
July,1981. John Wallace met with us the following morning at the hotel.
Needless to say, we were a rather hungover bunch. We all celebrated our good
fortune and success. I didn't make it in until something like 0300. And my
celebrating began at about 1330 the previous afternoon. It wasn't all
partying though. We all did take time out to go and eat dinner. John gave us
a pep talk and a speech of congratulations. He then gave us our cards (which
I still have today) and turned us loose.
I was now an Engineer. I'll bet all those people that laughed at me as a kid
aren't laughing now.
And so it goes.
Tuch
Watch for part 3, continuing training, coming soon to a monitor near you.
Get ready New Yorkers... Chicago is in the midst of the season's first major blizzard and it's headed your way! We're expecting upwards of 12" of snow by midnight tonight, along with gusty winds, bitter cold temperatures, and possible additional lake-effect snow.
The worst of it is expected to hit during the day today, while I will be safely perched on the 54th floor of the Sears Tower. But based on my morning commute, it looks like the CTA is holding up rather well so far. I was on a Red Line train of rebuilt 2600's, and other than being more crowded than usual, my commute was free of unusual delays. How well have the other Chicago SubTalkers fared so far?
Don't forget that the Budd 2600-series trains (which form the backbone of the CTA system) failed miserably two winters ago due to a design defect which allowed snow into the electrical components of the motors, shorting them out. The 2600's are currently being rebuilt by Alstom, and the design defect is being corrected. The majority of the 2600's on the Red Line have now been rebuilt, but the Blue Line still has a large number of 2600's that have yet to be rebuilt. It will be interesting to see if the CTA learned its lesson; I bet Frank Kruesi doesn't want a repeat of the verbal spanking he got from Mayor Daley when the CTA imploded during that blizzard. (Upwards of 25% of the CTA's rail fleet was put out of service due to the blizzard, forcing trains to be transferred from the other lines to cover the Red and Blue lines. It was certainly interesting to see a train of Orange Line 3200's at Logan Square on the Blue Line!) The fortunate side-effect of the political fallout was that Daley immediately put the kabosh on Kruesi's proposal to re-number all the bus routes in the city. Never mind the fact that the City had been neglecting public transit in Chicago for decades, but that's another topic.
Stay tuned...
-- David
Chicago, IL
The New York Transit Museum is taking thoughts and ideas on the celebration of the birth of the subway, which is the date that appears as the subject line of this message.
Here's a link.
I have one of my own
- A 5-car "museum train" of Low-V cars will run in revenue service on the numbered lines (the train will be 3 cars long on the 42 Street Shuttle). These trains will be followed by "regular" trains, similar to the way the SOAC cars ran while in New York.
- A two-unit D type train will also run in revenue service, similar to the way the Low-V's are run. They will run on what will be (in late 2001) the N, Q, W, J, M, L, and Z lines.
- If any IND cars are operational, put them on what are now the A, B, C, D, E, F, and G, and Rock Pk Shuttle lines. A 4 or 5-car train should do there. Run them similar to the other "museum" trains. Except for the case of the Rock Pk Shuttle, which will have to abandon OPTO for that train. Probably use cars owned by the RPC.
- Bring the Redbirds (those that haven't been filled with H2O) out of retirement, paint them in their original colors, and send them off through the IRT. What do you think? What are your ideas?
Click HERE for real-time updates on the Boston Globe's "Acela Express vs. air shuttle Race."
A Daily News article about The sinking homes in Logan and Wissinoming, and how the ash got there from Center City. On PRT trolleys, of course.
the d-train could go to chruch ave on the culver line via exp.
the d-train could go to chruch ave on the culver line via exp.
All the more recent messages have two dates. The second date given as a new heading. It looks like this:
d-train - dtexp - Mon Dec 11 15:56:08 2000
- - Wed Dec 31 19:00:00 1969
Is the date Wed Dec 31 19:00:00 1969 suposted to contain some seceret meaning?
Hi all,
I was wondering if anyone's had any experience with...
A) Search engine packages (i.e. something that can be installed locally and index a site- not interested in a Google, AltaVista, Excite, etc co-brand). I use glimpse/webglimpse right now and if there were something better out there I'd like to see it.
B) "favicon.ico" -- could someone maybe design one of these for the site?
Please reply privately.
Thanks,
Dave
I had another great transit dream last night and it was a ride on the LIAR. Actually this is my second dream ride on the LIAR.
It starts out with me walking on the Mail Line RoW somewhere before Jamaica. The Main only had 2 tracks, but the RoW was very wide. I was right before an interlocking and I saw JAY tower, only it wasn't JAY. It was painted like NASSAU, but based on the design of HUNT tower (Huntington PA). I remember that I was trying to find the LIAR connection to the NJT terminal at Hoboken. Anyway I descided to take a little LIAR ride. I suddenly was standing at the RFW of a M# EMU train. We went past JAY, then HALL (which was identical to JAY), we then crossed to the other track and went through the old Jamaica Station at like 80mph. The old station was in the middle of town and was at grade. W/o stoping we went on to the new Jamaica station. This is the 8 track station we all know and love, but in my dream world it had been a recent transit project built in a non-urban area outside of Jamaica. The conductor never took my ticket and I got off and went into the concourse under the track level. A railfan w/ a blazing scanner passed me and I saw that they had a huge model board in the station for all to see. It had all the nearby LIAR routes and all the trains were lit up as LED lights. Way Cool!
Big Ed's divorce is apparently progressing better than he expected. He is in the process of moving his personal possessions back to Livingston, Montana, where he plans on making his home again. He hopes to be there permanently before the holidays, and may have already bid North Dakota goodbye as you read this.
His spirits are better than they were earlier in the proceedings. He has gotten his model trains and the remaining copies of his book back, and hopes to resume selling them once he gets settled. He misses his friends at this site, and says to say hi. Hopefully there will be the possibility in the future that he may be able to get back on the internet, and also SubTalk.
Alert for those who get Jerseyvision (NJN): Tuesday night (Dec 12) at 10 PM: :Fabulous Trolleys: The History of Trolleys in America".
Last week, I got 30 votes on the poll. This week, something of more interest. For those of you who didn't read the other posts, the Boston Globe sent two reporters to New York City. This morning, they started out at their hotel at the same time and were heading to some landmark in Boston (a post office of some sort). One was going by plane, the other by Acela Express. The guy who took the plane, after crossing LaGuardia Airport twice and getting on a plane over an hour after he planned to, beat the guy on the Acela by two minutes.
As to which got more work done, well, that is a different matter.
Now, this week's Oren's Transit Page "Take One" Poll:
Please take this poll from the perspective of a business man, not a railfan. For the purposes of this poll, this web site and your life of a railfan, is nonexistant.
Remeber, polls change every Monday afternoon.
How are station announcements transmitted, and are they live or a recording? And the sound effects, like the drop of water sound (when a train is approaching) and the departure bell, where are they produced. You'll hear them at stations where there is no tower, like at 34th street for the shuttle train, or at Grand street when the shuttle was running, and when the B&D were terminating at 34th due to bridge work.
Also whoever here told me about www.asianfriendfinder.com site it was a waste of time, you can't view all the profiles for free even though they say it's free(so I un-registered). Shame that people put a price just trying to beat loneliness! That's why I appreciate www.nycsubway.org. This is the most comprehensive web site about rail transit systems on the web, plus this great message board. And it's free! We must thank David for his hard work in keeping this site running, especially at this time of year. Christmas is a time of year not for gifts, but for thankfulness and love. Even though I don't have my Mom anymore I'm grateful for whoever cares about me, that I have a roof over my head, great music to enjoy, and trains to ride on.
I set up a little web page of my own on Yahoo, and you can see it here
http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/railsandtrains
I'd like to spruce up the Photos area with current subway and SIRTOA pictures, so join!
What actually DID happen to the subtalk code?
I have been informed that the Broadway Junction "L" station has been desecrated by the installation of those loopy "hat" lights that have been seen cluttering up the Bronx IRT and the Broadway BMT. What a sacrilege! I can just see it now. They have the ability to make the old 1917-style lights (they did that for Myrtle, Queensboro Plaza and Sheepshead Bay), why didn't they use THOSE at Broadway Junction? Idiots! Numbskulls!! IMBECILES!!!! This will ruin the look of the station!! I'm so mad , I could eat a light bulb!!!!!!!!!!
wayne :o<
Maybe I'm just imagining things or maybe its just senility creaping in but I seem to remember the original LIRR M-1's had carpeting in their non-smoking cars. I distinctly remember it because I always rode in the smoking cars in those days and the main difference between the 2 cars was the carpeting. (besides the thick smoke billowing out the doors every time they opened) Also, while we're at it I seem to remember water fountains and waste paper slots just outside the lavoratory door. I guess since there's still alot of M-1's left and none of them have carpets, water fountains, or garbage slots, I assume they took 'em out. Anyone else remember?? Am I going nuts or do I remember correctly??
i am starting a rumor that due to many customer's complaints that they saw gypsy moths flying around in several different r-68 cars, the entire r-68 fleet will be mothballed... workers in the parts stockroom in the concourse shop have been phoning hardware stores throughout the metropolitan area trying to locate approximately 1000 red mothball cylindrical containers with hangers that will be used to mothball the fleet...they are also seeking several case of mothballs to place in these containers...
upon the advice of heypaul pest control industries, each car will have one of these old style mothball containers hanging from one of the horizontal poles in the car...
customers who use the d train, and who are allergic to mothball vapors, are advised to use the q train, which does not have this problem...
heypaul
c.e.o. heypaul pest control industries, a subsidiary of the heypaul military, industrial, and heavy rail complex....
what are rules for t/o's is cases of very bad fog (can't see the signals)?
How does everybody feel about building a Queens Plaza("E","R","V")-to-Queensboro Plaza("7","N")transfer connection tunnel (maybe 2 blocks long), or a Court Square ("7" train)-to-Court Square/Ely Avenue ("E","G","V") (1/2 block long). Obstacles to both are that in each csae, one station is above ground, one below, but just think of the options Manhattan-bound riders would have if one of the tunnels (42nd St, 53rd St, 60th St) had a fire or a stalled train! And people who are afraid of doing these transfers on the LIC streets during the wee hours could do them within the MTA system, which would hopefully be safer.
ATTENTION ALL SUBTALKERS!
The MTA has announced a public hearing for January 23, 2001, to allow public response to the proposed 63rd St service: F train running via 63rd St, V train on 53rd St from 71-Continental to 2nd Av station, E train running same as currently.
The hearing will be on Tuesday, January 23, 2001, at Long Island City High School, 14-30 Broadway, LIC, Queens, and will begin at 6:00PM. You can register to speak until 7PM at the meeting, or you can register or send comments to Douglas Sussman, Deputy Director, MTA Government and Community Relations, 347 Madison Av, New York NY 10017. Telephone: 212-878-7483. You can find the closest subway station on a Web-based map by going to www.straphangers.org.
Many of you have posted some interesting alternatives to the proposed service. Please don't reserve them for nycsubway.org use only. Show up to the hearing and present them. Let others in the community hear you speak up.
If you can't come: Write to MTA by US mail as listed above, and send your city councilperson and borough president a copy (US MAIL IS STILL THE BEST WAY TO CONTACT ELECTED OFFICIALS IN GENERAL).
This is an 8.5 inch x 11 inch 20 page booklet printed by the MTA. They later decided not to distribute it. It contains 20 glossy, color pages of actual size photos of 1997-99 commemorative MetroCards & cardholders. Full color photos of the Subway Series 97, Then and Now, Emigrant, JVC Jazz, Healthy City, Ferry Boat, Yankees 98, Subway Cool, Millennial Journeys, Mets International Week plus 63 Cardholders including the complete Great Subway series. All photos are actual size & full color! A beautiful collector¹s MUST HAVE. The supply is very limited. When they are gone, they are gone.
Send $10.00 ea.+ $2. P & H in check or Money Order
Made out to Mike Makman.
To: Prof. Putter, Po Box 755, Planet Station, NYC NY 10024
I was very busy today and could not make it all the way to south station for the 5:12 departure. However, I did make it down the road to the route 128 station just in time to see the trainset stop and leave the station. The train looked pretty full, but not sold out. I can't wait to see the train go by at full speed (or near it)...which I hope to see next week when I go home to CT! -Nick
.it seems that the new board works fine...a special thanks to the
webmaster !!
You are breaking up a fight. One of the guys in the fight punches you. Do you:
a- Hit him back.
b- Continue to try breaking up the fight.
c- Walk away.
d- Call the police.
Your friends would describe you as:
a- Laid back.
b- Easy going.
c- Aggressive.
d- Consistent.
Monitored the scanner all day and didn't detect any major problems, so I give the CTA an "A" for surviving the 13-15 inch blizzard Monday. It snowed all day, at times up to 2 inches per hour. Then the winds kicked in this evening and the bottom fell out of the temperatures.
Blue lights, BO wayside signals, and some door problems were the major complaints. CTA had extra trains out. After sunset and with the freezing temps, some track switches froze. I should have gotten out with the cam corder to catch the snow brooms in action, but my scanner batteries weren't charged.
The CTA put out extra manpower and had service people on duty well before the am rush and this seemed to have turned the trick. Plus the 300 rehabbed 2600's seemed to have fared OK.
Now the wind is blowing that fine powdery snow thats known to get into traction motors and circuits. We'll see how midnight service fares and how the am rush goes. High of only 12 above tomorrow.
Even the TV news coverage featured mostly cold passengers who also praised the "L" and the buses. Of course many stores and businesses closed early and that spread out the pm rush hour.
David Harrison
for the last two weeks a flock of buzzards have been hovering over both the kawasaki and bombardier assembly plants as well as the mta storage yards in new york city where the delivered cars are being stored... what does this portend?...
Here's the link to the Boston Globe article on the train vs. plane "race" yesterday.
A set of 3 articles in today's Daily News discusses the current TWU power struggle.
The Oaks Model RR club has posted a .mepg movie of the 12/11 run of the ACELA Express as it blows out through the fog at Bristol, PA at hi-speed.
The Link Is:
www.trainweb.org/oaksmodelrr
Go to the movie archive section. Also the Oaks Club got evicted from their clubhouse and they are going to have to tare down their large and impressive layout. They have asked anybody who can come by to help them w/ the demolition or just to view it before it goes.
railfan hp was first observed purchasing a fun pass from the metrocard machines at the south end of sheepshead bay station... hp put a $10 bill in the machine... upon issuance of his card, he examined the back of the card very carefully... hp then examined each of the gold coins carefully, testing them with a bit of acid to see if they were real gold... hp had also requested a metrocard receipt, which he carefully put in a large envelope stuffed with similar receipts...
hp did not enter the system from the south end of the station, but walked around to the main entrance on sheepshead bay road... he then asked the station agent for the latest subway map... the agent gave him a may 2000 map, which hp refused, indicating that he needed the nov 2000 map... the station agent asked him "what's the difference?" ... hp spent approximately 8 minutes explaining the difference, much to the consternation of about 20 people waiting to buy metrocards...
hp then swiped his card about 5 times, and finally gained entry... once through the turnstyle, he bent down and started recording some numbers from the back of the turnstyle... unfortunately several customers using the same turnstyle, tripped over hp as they sought entry... one of these people apparently recognized hp from a new york times article on his activities and asked hp for his autograph... hp went into a panic, as he is extremely fearful of the public...
hp immediately sprinted to the stairs and then to the front end of the northbound platform... shortly, a d train came slowly into the station, but hp paid it no mind... 8 minutes later another d train pulled into the station, but hp continued staring at some markings on the running rails on the express track... this continued for about 1 hour, until hp screamed "i forgot it's saturday, there is no q service"
upon the arrival of the next d train, hp reluctantly entered the first car... he was observed copying down car number 3572... this seemed strange, as the car number was 2753... apparently hp encrypts all his notes... hopefully we will be able to deciper his notes when he is brought in for questioning...
hp was then observed putting on a set of headphones and putting a cassette into his aiwa walkman... a broad smile appeared on hp's face... when i walked past hp, i heard some strange rumbling sounds coming out of his headphones...
i took a seat at the rear of the first car... as the d train moved slowly north, i became very drowsy...
i apparently fell asleep, and when i awoke at the 7th avenue station, it seemed that hp was no longer on the train....
test
i was just reading the nov/dec 1991 issue of electriclines, which arrived in the mail today about 9 years late...
seriously though... there was an article on the construction of the philly broad street subway... what interested me was a description of the 50 additional cars purchased from pressed steel car company in 1938... they had an auto-annunciator rollsign in the car that indicated the next stop and a clock which indicated the time... i remember riding those cars back 30 years ago, but i have just a vague memory of the rollsign annunciator... what fascinates me was that they had our r-142's high tech idea beat by 62 years... i do remember hearing a chime or warning signal when the doors closed...
what i am wondering is "how long did those rollsigns function?"... the board that the annunciator was mounted on had a real nice deco look... has any of these signs survived?... they look really neat (cool) ...
i was alerted to this show yesterday by my good friend doug "better late than never" diamond aka BMTman...
tonight on channel 13 at 10pm, there will be a 90 minute special documentary on the life and work of nikola tesla... this man's genius is beyond comprehension, although he is hardly known by most people... he developed the technology that made alternating current generation and transmission possible... but he thought up and developed many ideas that were far ahead of his times and even ours... yet he died a recluse in a new york city hotel, where in his later years he became devoted to the pigeons who came to his window sill...
i really cannot do justice to this man's life and ideas... check the program out, i think you will find yourself in awe of this man...
the title of a book about him written several years ago by margaret cheney was "tesla: man out of time"
he truly was not from this mortal plain...
http://www.photolib.noaa.gov/historic/nws/wea00954.htm
I would just like to know on when NYCT plans to start building this new free transfer between the G train & the train between the Court Sq & 45 Rd/CourtHouse Sq stations & when will this transfer point be completed & open.
When the new V & W trains are implementated next summer, does NYCT plan to change the roll on signs on the R32,38,40,42,44,46,68 & 68A cars, if so, when will they start doing this.
If NYCT doesn't change the roll on signs, are they going to use the W train as a diamond & will it show that on the subway map & in station signs.
WBZ Newsradio 1030 (Boston) reports that the ACELA Express did not run from DC to Boston this morning. The pantograph had some minor damage after yesterday's inaugural run, and required overnight repairs. Passengers were placed on a back-up "conventional" electric train this morning. However, this train's engine failed at Bridgeport, and another had to be brought down from New Haven to complete the trip to Boston. Passengers were treated to free food & beverage, had their fares refunded, and earned credit for a future trip.
The report said that the ACELA Express trainset has been repaired, and run to Boston (don't know if it ran light or in place of another train), so that the return trip leaving Boston/South Station at 5:12 this afternoon will depart as scheduled.
As we all know ACELA Express is set to replace MetroLiner. However ACELA Express and Metroliner are different services. AE is DCU to BOS and MetroLiner is NYP to DCU. I do believe that there is more service in the NY to DC market than NY to BOS. My question is will AE trains always run from DC to BOS or will some simply go from NY to DC? Will Amtrak have enough trainsts to provide current MetroLiner service all the way to Boston. Is there a market to warrent it? Is there track capacity to handle it? Will Amtrak cut ACELA Regional trains to Boston once AE becomes fully operational? Will ACELA Regional trains still have unreserved seats?
I think that if after all the AE trainsets have been delivered there is not enough of them to sustain the previous level of MetroLiner service from NY to DC they should run NY to DC ACELA MetroLiner trains. AM trains would be just like the old MetroLiners hauled by AEM's. They would still be faster than ACELA Regional, slower than ACELA Express, offer first and bussiness classes only, but be cheaper than AE. If Amtrak ras NY to DC only ACELA MetroLiner trains (either using the AE sets or AEM's) the ACELA Express can really run express between those 2 cities and either eliminate stops at Wilmington and Trenton or offer Skip-stop service with alternating AE trains. The ACELA Metroliner would pick up any slack. This would give the larger market more service and provide 4 levels of travel options:
ACELA Commuter: Cheap, slow, stopping train
ACELA Regional: Basic Amtrak service.
ACELA MetroLiner: Fast, comfey service stoping at all important locations in the NY-DC market.
ACELA Express: Hi-Speed service between majour metropolitan centres
Anybody who has traveled the NEC from NYC south or the NJTP from Exit 15E to 16E has seen the massive contruction project on the NEC. The new Secaucas Connection will allow Commuters on NJT Main and Bergen Line trains to change to a Penn Station bound train instead of riding all the way to Hoboken. This project has been draging on for about 4-5 years now ans it is nearing completion. My question: Is this a good project?
Pros:
-North Jersey Residents have direct access to NYC. No more ferries or PATH.
-Connection effectivly creats 2 controled sidings on the NEC for Amtrak and express trains to hop around NJT locals
-Erie Div. passengers won't need to whine for a Midtown-Direct service clogging the North River tubes even more
Cons:
-NJT trains have another stop to make thus delaying them further.
-More people trying to pack into already SRO corridor trains.
-Trains slowing down for the crossovers clog the NEC north and south of the connection.
-Station would restrict speed of Amtrak trains on previously 125mph track.
Mitigations:
-N/B trains already slow for Hackensack River Draw.
-Hi-speed turnouts might be used.
With the Manhattan Bridge re-opening, and the W lines creation, I want to know if the TA will send the N train back to the express track via the manhattan bridge.
I have just finished 3 possible T-shirt designs. They aren't really seperate designs, but each features different design elements. Please tell me what elements you like, don't like or would like changed.
PS: I know what is and isn't spelled correctly.
Today at around 4:15pm I was in the 23rd St/7th Ave station in Midtown I saw a R62 #2 of R62s flying uptown on the express track! Now I have seen a R62 consist of a #5 train, but seeing a R62 with a #2 in the front rollsign is something new to me. Also for the rest of the cars on that train, some have the #5 Bowling Green sign. Others have the #2 Flatbush Ave sign (perhaps borrowed from #5?). The rear-facing route sign is #5. Were there anything that prevented the R62s from being able to run on the #2 or #5 before?
There is a commercial being shoot in IND Hoyt-Schermerhorn station; with the following consist: "N": 2894-2895-2893-2892 2912-2913-2915-2914 looking TOTALLY out of place in the IND; some cars (the #2894 bunch) signed up as "8" = BROADWAY GOLD sign! The NYC Subway logo plaques are covered with these "8"s as well. Then they have wrapped the pillars in bright colours and hung up round globe lights in the closed platform ceiling. There were about 100 people there and a lot of equipment. The commercial is for Snickers (the candy bar). Lots of people (including myself) standing on the Brooklyn-bound platform to gawk and gape at the activity.
The "A", #5468 was unusally fast in the Fulton Express and reached a high speed of 46MPH.
wayne
Does anybody know how long it will take to rebuild the terminal and when they are going to start?
I recently saw on the P&W web site said that they have a weekly mixed train to Fresh Pond. Has anyone seen this? I would imagine it would be a little far from their center of gravity which is in Worcester MA.
-Dan
Ever since I started using the AvantGo service that downloads websites into my Palm OS device, I wanted a channel that had relevant NY rail news. I just downloaded a channel called PalmInfocenter.com which is message board, but with a different form than that SubTalk. In it, objective news is posted and users leave responses. Every time, I HotSync my Palm, the information is updated without my computer actually going to the site. I think it would be a good idea for Subtalk to have a small section for news that is small enough (under 100k text-only) so that AvantGo users can access up-to-date rail news.
learn more at www.avantgo.com
-Dan
Do you think the ABE area will have rail connections reestablished with New York or Philadelphia first?
In reading the BMT history I see that the Jamaica Ave extension of the Broadway-Brooklyn elevated opened on May 28th 1917. At this time the old City Line el terminal was closed.
Does this mean that the original Cypress Hills station was known as City Line Terminal?
I always thought of City Line as being the old Grant Ave station on the Fulton St el. This area is quite a distance south of Cypress Hills station!
Given that my DNS URL's weren't resolving on all computers I am attempting a simpler approach. Please keep in mind that the image links work for me.
I have just finished 3 possible T-shirt designs. They aren't really seperate designs, but each features different design elements. Please tell me what elements you like, don't like or would like changed.
PS: I know what is and isn't spelled correctly.
There's a punch box at Canal Street on the northbound H track. It is on the side opposite of the platform used for transfer between the 6/N/R/J/M/Z. I think I'm losing my eyesight or something though. The only letter I could read off the punch box was N all the way on the right. I think right next to it to the left was Q. The rest I couldn't read. Could someone privledged (one who is authorized to enter/cross the tracks) check it out? If not could someone with binoculars check it out? :)
Shawn.
A certain train crew on the M has an annoying practice with the doors. This happens at Myrtle-Broadway when the M waits on the center track. I'm not sure why this is done, other than it being cold outside. Either the C/R or the T/O will key open the two side doors in the middle of the train. When the southbound J train pulls in, they did not open the doors. Everyone was forced to walk to the middle of the M train. Once they got their line up, and we ready to leave they open and closed all the doors on the southbound side really quickly. I doubt that if there was anyone waiting on the platform for the doors to open that they would have gotten on. On top of this, many people were walking between cars when the train started moved and while it was rounding the curve on to Myrtle. I figure it is somewhat dangerous for the people who are moving in between cars.
The last time I remember this happening was maybe a week ago where they keyed open the side doors on the end of every car. Why bother with all that extra work? They also had problems with the doors after this. They opened and closed the doors on the southbound side, that didn't help. They open and closed the doors on the northbound side, that didn't help. Then finally when they opened and closed the doors again and it was over. This lead to a delay in leaving Myrtle-Broadway, which I'm pretty sure they had to explain when they got back to Metropolitan late.
Other crews do not do this, so I doubt there are specific orders to only key open certain doors.
Is this practice common on other lines? Is this even allowed?
Shawn.
USA Today 12/12/00 Page 13A Both print and Online Editions:
"Amtrak's Acela races into riders' favor; High-speed train wins rave reviews
"By Fred Bayles, USA TODAY
"BOSTON -- Amtrak began what it hopes will be a new era in high-speed rail service Monday with its first scheduled Acela train run between Washington and Boston. And while railroad officials were happy and train buffs excited, no one could match Damion Drab's enthusiasm.
"'I'm sold,' said the Philadelphia technology consultant, who picked the train over his usual flight to Boston. Sprawled comfortably in his seat with room for cellphone and laptop, Drab watched as the Connecticut shore zipped past. 'I'm sitting here with no stress, looking at the beach. Amazing.'"
Story continues . . .
http://www.usatoday.com/usatonline/20001212/2907623s.htm
I was just visiting the "For Want of a Nail" page on this website, concerning the 81st. Street/8th Avenue station, which has various animal and cosmic themes. This reminded me that on the 46th Street station of the Queens Blvd.(R,G) line, there were until about one year ago a set of large circus animal figurines/statues(?). These, IIRC, were on the downtown platform in an alcove (where the station walls recede). These animals included at least two nearly life-sized lions, a tiger, and some other animals as well. The walls of the alcove were painted blue (primarily).
About a year ago, this display was placed behind gates and was later removed. Does anyone know what this display was about and why it was taken down? This was a rather distinctive display. Thanks a lot in advance to all.
-cordially,
turnstiles
I was once told that the N line in Astoria was once the IRT, or the "A" division MANY years ago. In other words the stations including, and north of Queensboro Plaza-Ditmars Blvd were once IRT property.
I was also told that until a few years ago, they still had IRT signals left over on the N line.
Any info?
So was today's windy weather messing up some of the subway and commuter rail lines? I didn't see any problems on the LIRR.
But I heard they closed the Manhattan Bridge for a time today due to the winds. Was this just for car/truck traffic, or were trains also not allowed due to the winds?
Caught it last night at 7:45 at Fulton Street. Everything seemed to be working properly except the clock. When I told the T/O about it, his answer was "I can't do anything about that". Is that correct or was he to lazy to fix it?
TA forces have begun removing track K-1 south of Atlantic Ave
about 10 days ago. Originally, this track was used by eastbound
Fulton el trains. Rail spikes are dated 1938, however, this track has
been out of regular service for over 44 years (since Fulton
service was eliminated in 1956).
Can someone tell me if Conrail uses _route_ signalling aspects or _speed_ signalling aspects around Boston?
Thanks,
Dave
I have a question for one of the resident TA employees, or anyone else who may know the answer..
What are the reasons/guidlines for when a train will or will not wait for the passengers to make transfers across a platform? I live in Brooklyn and regularly make transfers at Dekalb and Nevins, and often get incredibly pissed off at the system. Sometimes a train will wait for minutes for the next train to pull up and allow the passengers to transfer, sometimes it seems like they're waiting, and then they close the doors right at the last second! Couldn't they just wait an extra few seconds for people to make the transfer? At first I thought it was a rush hour/night thing. Why wait when there's another train right behind? But I'll share this quick antecode with all of you:
It's 1:30 am.. I'm on the 2 train and we pull up to Nevins Street. We're sitting at the station for what seemed like forever..and the passengers are getting impatient. I think to myself, "oh, we must be wating for a 4 train to pull up". And sure enough, after about 10 minutes, the 4 train comes in to the station. Just as the train was screeching to a stop, our train's doors closed and we left! - much to the dismay of the transfering 4 passengers!
I'm just dying to know if there is any rhyme or reason to these occruances, or if it's just the operators screwing with us? Anyone got any answers??
Todays installment of this crossposted e-mail novella is quite amusing and will teach you some of the better parts of Railroad Nicknames and Lingo. Make sure you all read the last chapter I posted about how you become an engineer at http://www.nycsubway.org/cgi-bin/subtalk.cgi?read=175643
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Today we learn, What's in a name, Part 1.
Everything and everybody has a name. They have to or otherwise we won't know what to call them. Some people don't fit their names while others do. Some names don't fit what they are describing while other names hit the nail right on the head. When you hear "Thurston Howell III", you think of some snobby, rich, debutante type. When you hear "The Big Ragu", either Carmine Ragusa, the character from Laverne and Shirley, or some big powerful man of Italian heritage
in a fedora who operates an "olive oil importing" business comes to mind. Now before any of you start screaming of political correctness, remember; I am of Italian and Sicilian heritage so I can poke fun at my own ethnic background all I want. And I do so quite often. We are all allowed and I believe at some point, required to laugh at our own heritage and ethnic culture. Its what makes us interesting. It is also something that draws us closer together in a bizarre sort of
way.
Enough of this philosophical stuff and on with the focus of this column. I was never any good at philosophy anyway.
Much of the following is not politically correct. We on the railroad don't seem to mind though.
Many of us in the rail industry have nicknames of some sort or another. I'm sure this practice may apply in other professions as well, but it seems far more common on the railroad than say, in the medical industry. I mean after all, have you ever heard of a physician referred to by his or her cronies as Stinky, Lefty or Cookie? Most likely not. And myself, I am not really certain I would want to operated on by a surgeon known as Slippery, get a shot from a nurse named Knuckles, buy a new car from a guy called Shifty, or attend church services celebrated by a priest named Good Time. However, I have railroaded with people over the years adorned with these very nicknames and not thought twice about it.
Nicknames come about from various sources such as physical traits or
characteristics; bald guys referred to as Curly, huge football player or wrestler types called Tiny, the fellow with a large nose known as Sniff, the fellow with red hair called, what else, Red, a guy with a rather big posterior referred to as Bubble Ass or, on the radio, Bubble Butt, the guy with the perennially bad haircut called Zipperhead, the guy with size 16 work boots known as Shoes, or the
tall and almost deathly thin guy called Stretch or Slim. Then there's Sherman for the guy who looked like the grown up version of the cartoon character who appeared with Mr Peabody, Elvis for the three different guys who looked like Elvis in various stages of the King of Rock and Roll's life; young Elvis, middle aged Elvis and Elvis had he lived into his late 50's, Plug for the short stocky guy, Porky for the really heavy short guy.
Some nicknames come from things you did in the performance of your duties such as, a screw up you committed, an action you did or didn't take, how you operate a locomotive or train. A guy who punched another guy when he had taken about enough of his BS became known as Sluggo. A guy who had a several episodes of running into things became known as Crash, the guy who seemed to be in trouble all the time but always managed to get out from under it was Lucky. Wild Bill was a crazy man who took wild chances on the job. Then there was the Great One who I always told had the "aura" of Greatness, Whiplash who's train handling techniques could easily give you that ailment,
One Notch who didn't seem to know that the throttle could go higher than Run 1, the Jammer for the guy who thought that every train should be stopped using only engine brakes, which are sometimes referred to as the jammer, Slack Action for the guy who's train handling techniques required that all the slack be constantly and rapidly changed whenever he did anything thus requiring the tail end crew to have to strap themselves into the seats, High Wheeler and Speed Racer for the guys that could "run the wheels off of them" so to speak. There was One Way who only worked one way and then would mark off sick at the other end of the road. Dr Degenerate was the guy who was all into weird, explicit sex photos.
Other names came from mannerisms, behavior or things you said or did, or how you said it. I have worked with the Clown Prince who was rather goofy, well, make that really goofy, the King; the guy who thought everybody was far less intelligent than he and also far inferior in their railroading abilities, the Queen; (given to several different female clerks) owing to their domineering and rather witchy attitudes, the Clip; the guy that was always hitting somebody up for
a dollar, Oddmoe; self explanatory, Yosemite Sam; the guy who acted and looked like him, Otis; like the drunk on Andy Griffith, Dink (no clue where this one came from), Dinger; who liked to work 12 hours and, as we referred to it when you made it all, ringing the bell , Chico; the girl crazy one, Biff; who used that word whenever describing the sound made when hitting someone or something, Smokey; who smoked cigars like a power plant burns coal, Pup; with a face
like a puppy, Crazy Eddie; another self explanatory one, Nutty; who was about half nuts but a riot to work with, Cabbie; who was afraid he would wind up being a cab driver if he didn't pass the rules test, the Hippie; for obvious reasons, the Harker; had something to do with the way he played cards, Red Block; for a Dispatcher who never had you lined up even when you were the only train for 50 miles, Cement Head; a Dispatcher who had a thick skull, also an Engineer with
the same physical trait, Hickory Head; the hard headed and stubborn one who once got hit in the head with a piece of coke that fell out of a car and it broke but didn't injure him, Unc or Uncle; the guy who's nephew also worked there, the Diamond Man; who thought he was the big time high roller, Footie; who, well, we won't get into that one, Buckets; who cried buckets of tears when he thought he was setting the shaft, Johnny No Cash; the guy who thought he could sing
(but couldn't) and also never had any money, Paddlefoot; yet another no clue, Preacher; for the very convicted religious guy, Deacon; another very religious guy, Jethro; the guy that was like Jethro on the Beverly Hillbillies, he was always going to quit to go and do something else like be a movie star or a double naught spy or something, Papa Smurf; who was a Patriarch of sorts, Flash; no
clue, Mammy; the guy who's wild step son worked there as well, Elmo; who's real name was Elmer, and he was a very short and stout man who just looked like an Elmo, Mumbles for a guy who's lips and mouth didn't move when he talked, Peaches; no clue here, but everybody called him that even when he made Trainmaster, Dough Boy was the guy who looked like the Pillsbury Dough Boy all grown up. The Shell Answer Man was the Switchman who knew everything about everything; just ask him. He was also called Mr Know It All. Uncle Fester was a Conductor who looked just like the Addams Family character only not as
heavy. Aches and Pains was the Conductor that was always suffering from some sort of malady. Boss Hog resembled and acted sort of like the character on that TV show Dukes of Hazzard. Conrail was called that as he came from there and would always tell us about how they did things on Conrail. His first two initials were also CR.
And still other names were a play on first or last names. Tuch (rhymes with hootch) is a play on my last name Santucci pronounced, San TEW chee. I have been called Tuch just about as long as I can remember. When I played ball, I got dubbed Sawbones as I got hurt in a game and commented that I had better go and see the Sawbones. It evolved to Bones and I spelled it Bonz like the dog biscuits. Even had it on my license plates. It never caught on at the railroad
though. There are still a few folks that call me that. I've also been called other things, but we won't get into those as they were away from the railroad so they don't count here. And besides, what a few females called me after relationships failed don't normally count as nicknames anyway. Do they?
Other nameplays; substituting the word horse for the Han in Hancock, and he was proud of that nickname, Sandy, Rowbar, Crowbar, Bubbles, Woodie, Bare Ass (another one you couldn't say on the radio), Wolfman, Argy, Druggie, Weenie, Hoser, Whizzer, Whizzo, Whiskey, King Lear, Barf, Gas Bag, Gas Pipe, Pig Nuts, Schmaltzie, Moon Mullens, Moon Pie, Izzy who's last name is Gay, Ima who's last name is Broad, Herpies, Carp, Fish, Hey Harry, Marsha Babe, Sea Horse, and his son, Sea Pony who later evolved to just Pony, Moose, Beetle Bailey, Scooter, Dickie Bird, Sleepin' Sam, Gutless, Wooyang, The Duke whose last name was Earl. He was Mammy's wild step child.
Ethnic or cultural heritage; Dutch, Pete the Greek, Scotty, Dago Joe, the Mad Romanian, the Polish Prince and the Italian Stallion.
From the initials of several Dispatchers and Operators; BGH was Billy Goat Head who was rather strong willed, BRN who was Better Ring Now or Be Reminded Normally as you always had to call him for a signal even if you were the only train on the entire district, TCR was Trains Cannot Run as he was never at his desk to answer the radio, MLD for Marcy Loves Delays as she always seemed to have you hand operate dual control switches for they never seemed to work in power, but only for her. JLB was John Loves Bitching as he was always screaming on the radio "I'M BUSY!!! when somebody was calling him
and he was busy or annoyed, which was pretty much most of the time.
Several Officials over the years have also been dubbed with names owing in part, to their attitudes or performances. Mighty Fine were the first two initials of a Superintendent, the Rat; which is self explanatory, Mush Mouth was a Trainmaster who talked sh*t and did so out of the side of his mouth, Cooter for a guy that came up with idiotic interpretations of the rules in order to instruct you to ciolate them so as to expedite a move, The Neck for the Trainmaster who was such a nervous wreck that his nerves would tighten up in his neck and his head would twist to one side and just stay there, Witchcraft was a play on this Trainmaster's last name, Ding Dong for Trainmaster Bell, The Seal for the General Car Foreman whose laugh sounded just like a seal, Horny was a play on this Mechanical Foreman's last name, Bobby K the Road Foreman who had a very long Polish last name that nobody could pronounce, The Social Director
for the Superintendent that spent most of the time trying to portray an image, led all tour groups around the property and nobody seemed to have a clue as to exactly what he actually did, if anything. The Extra Testicle was a play on this ranking officer's initials. He seemed to have an extra one based upon the outlandish ideas he came up with and attempted to implement (and they almost always crashed and burned). Even officials from other railroads thought he was a little off. Trainmaster Opie was Andy the Superintendent's sidekick. Baby Huey was this big lummox type that was as dumb as he was big. Twice he wrecked the Super's car owing to his own stupidity. Unlike in the movies, cars do not pass right through cable gates unscathed. After the second incident and losing the keys a couple of times, he was forbidden to ever drive any company cars again.
On mishaps; we call derailing various names based upon the severity. A
simple derailment that had any, most or all wheels off is known as "on the ground" or "in the mud". A more serious derailment might be referred to "as in the ditch". I know of a couple that were dubbed "in the street" as that is where some of the cars wound up when all was said and done and everything finally came to a stop. When a car clips the corner of another car it is dubbed "cornering" or a "corner job". A head on collision is referred to as a "cornfield meet". A major derailment is called a "crash and burn". A tank car that derails, turns over and begins to leak has "popped its top".
In describing failed motive power, there is "shot craps, gave up the ghost, coughed up a lung, went down for the count, opted for early retirement, bought the farm, choked, puked or barfed". Many of us always attempt to conjure up the most colorful or outlandish sounding descriptions we can come up with.
In Part 2 we will look at Railroad names and slogans.
And so it goes.
Tuch
Anyone know anything about the abandoned Franklin Square station on what is now the Patco line near the Ben Franklin Bridge?
Any and all tech info needed for preparation for car inspectors position/exam, please help!!.
For the last few months, I have noticed alot of work equipment at night and sometimes during the daytime, coming past my apartmemt in Bayside, Queens. I see from my window late at night a variety of work trains coming by, by mostly being pulled by diesel locomotives. Is there a reason for the activity?...I don't recall hearing of work being done on the Port Washington recently.
OK, Here are the latest subway bullets:
Here's how to get your own set of subway bullets, with such readings as , , , and even one for a CC-diamond that isn't on the site at this point.
Click on this link.
I was rummaging through the archives, and I came upon this post I made back in May. I don't remember anyone repliying to it, so I might as well ask it again.
What exactly is a B&O Switch? I've seen signs that read that all along the line. What is it?
What will the terminals be for the following lines: B,D,F,N,Q,V,W,R,M after the Manhattan and Coney Island Rebulids are completed?
Alot of D train riders are worried that after both are done that the D will be cut back to Brighton Beach and the Q will go to Coney Island. So what lines will be affected and changes after the lines are complete. This is so amazing I have never seen a change like this ever I am excited I have only seen such changes on the 200 subway maps I have...yes 200+ subway maps.
Christopher Rivera
I've heard a lot about the existence of a Roosevelt Avenue IND station above the existing station, that was supposed to be the terminal of a proposed IND Rockaway line that was never built. Its listed on Joe Brennan's roster of abandoned stations, but I have never been able to find it.
Has anyone here ever seen it or see any photos of it?
Thanks.
I've been rummaging through the archives again. Here's my latest find:
This past spring, FDNY posted some readings on the R44/46 e-signs. This lasted from 11 May to 17 May 2000. Previous messages on the thread indicated almost 1100 different readings.
To some, rollsigns provide a mystery to those interested. I recently solved a "mystery" with the Redbird rollsigns.
I also think of e-signs (like those on the R44's and R46's) as providing an equal, perhaps a greater, amount of mystery. Rollsigns can limit themselves only to their container. The e-sign is like a rollsign, except it has a bigger container.
What was posted was a little over 200, about 18% of all of them.
Why was it stopped?
Why not continue it now?
To help recap, here's what was posted as pages 1 through 8, in FDNY's reckoning, all in a nice, neat table.
E
JAMAICA CENTER
QUEENS LOCAL
E
WORLD TRADE CTR
8 AV LOCAL
F
TO 179 ST ST/QUEENS
6 AV LOCAL
QUEENS LOCAL
E
JAMAICA CENTER
QUEENS EXPRESSS
B
TO 21 ST/QUEENS
6 AV LOCAL
B
BWAY - LAFAYETTE
F
TO CONEY ISLAND
6 AV/CULVER LOCAL
F
TO 179 ST /QUEENS
CROSSTOWN LOCAL
F
TO KINGS HIGHWAY
6 AV/CULVER LCL
R
TO 179 ST /QUEENS
VIA 6 AV
Q
BWAY -LAFAYETTE
R
TO 95 ST /BKLYN
SPECIAL
F
TO 179 ST/QUEENS
6 AV LOCAL
QUEENS EXPRESS
F
TO 47-50 /6 AV
6 AV LOCAL
Q
TO 21 ST/QUEENS
6 AV LOCAL
SHUTTLE
G
TO SMITH-9 STS
CROSSTOWN LOCAL
G
TO CHURCH AV
CROSSTOWN LOCAL
G
TO COURT SQUARE
CROSSTOWN LOCAL
G
TO QUEENS PLAZA
CROSSTOWN LOCAL
G
71/CONTINENTAL
CROSSTOWN LOCAL
A
TO 207 ST/MANHTN
8 AV EXPRESS
A
TO 207 ST/MANHTN
8 AV LOCAL
A
TO 168 ST/MANHTN
8 AV EXPRESS
A
TO FAR ROCKAWAY
8 AV/FULTON EXP
R
TO 95 ST/BKLYN
BROADWAY LOCAL
R
TO WHITEHALL ST
BROADWAY LOCAL
R
TO CANAL ST
BROADWAY LOCAL
R
TO 34 ST/6 AV
VIA 6 AV
A
TO FAR ROCKAWAY
8 AV EXPRESS
FULTON ST LOCAL
A
TO FAR ROCKAWAY
8 AV/FULTON LCL
R
TO 36 ST/BKLYN
SHUTTLE
A
TO LEFFERTS BLVD
8 AV/FULTON EXP
A
TO LEFFERTS BLVD
8 AV EXPRESS
FULTON ST LOCAL
R
TO 179 ST/QUEENS
BROADWAY LOCAL
R
71/CONTINENTAL
BROADWAY LOCAL
A
TO LEFFERTS BLVD
8 AV/FULTON LCL
C
TO BEDFORD PARK
8 AV LOCAL
C
TO 145 ST /MANHTN
8 AV LOCAL
C
TO ROCKAWAY PK
8 AV/FULTON LCL
C
TO EUCLID AV
8 AV/FULTON LCL
C
WORLD TRADE CTR
8 AV LOCAL
H
TO EUCLID AV
VIA FAR ROCKAWAY
H
TO BROAD CHANNEL
SHUTTLE
H
TO EUCLID AV
SHUTTLE
H
TO FAR ROCKAWAY
VIA ROCKAWAY PK
H
TO ROCKAWAY PK
LISTEN FOR
ANNOUNCEMENT
NOT IN SERVICE
LAST STOP
B
TO 168 ST /MANHTN
6 AV EXPRESS
CENT PK W.LOCAL
B
TO 21 ST/QUEENS
6 AV EXPRESS
B
TO 36 /BKLYN
SHUTTLE
B
TO CONEY ISLAND
6 AV EXPRESS
WEST END EXP
B
TO CONEY ISLAND
N
TO DITMARS BLVD
BROADWAY EXP
N
TO DITMARS BLVD
4 AV EXPRESS
BROADWAY LOCAL
N
TO DITMARS BLVD
4 AV LOCAL
BROADWAY EXP
N
TO DITMARS BLVD
BROADWAY LOCAL
N
TO KINGS HIGHWY
BROADWAY EXP
SEA BEACH EXP
N
TO CONEY ISLAND
BROADWAY EXP
SEA BEACH LOCAL
N
TO CONEY ISLAND
BROADWAY LOCAL
SEA BEACH EXP
N
TO CONEY ISLAND
BROADWAY LOCAL
SEA BEACH LOCAL
D
TO 205 ST /BRONX
6 AV EXPRESS
CONCOURSE EXP
D
TO 205 ST/BRONX
6 AV EXPRESS
CONCOURSE LOCAL
D
TO BEDFORD PARK
6 AV EXPRESS
CONCOURSE LOCAL
D
TO CONEY ISLAND
6 AV EXPRESS
CONCOURSE LOCAL
Q
TO BRIGHTON BCH
6 AV EXPRESS
BRIGHTON LOCAL
Q
TO 21 ST/QUEENS
6 AV EXPRESS
S
TO FRANKLIN AV
S
TO PROSPECT PK
E
E
JAMAICA CENTER
VIA 6 AV
E
JAMAICA CENTER
N
TO KINGS HIGHWY
BROADWAY LOCAL
SEA BEACH LOCAL
F
JAMIACA CENTER
QUEENS EXPRESS
F
JAMAICA CENTER
QUEENS LOCAL
F
JAMAICA CENTER
VIA 8 AV
G
JAMAICA CENTER
CROSSTOWN LOCAL
N
JAMAIA CENTER
BROADWAY EXP
N
JAMAICA CENTER
VIA 6 AV
N
JAMAICA CENTER
VIA BROADWAY
R
JAMIACA CENTER
BROADWAY LOCAL
R
JAMAICA CENTER
VIA 6 AV
S
JAMAICA CENTER
SHUTTLE
S
TO UNION TPKE
SHUTTLE
V
JAMIACA CENTER
VIA 6 AV
W
JAMAICA CENTER
VIA BROADWAY
JAMAICA CENTER
SUTPHIN / ARCHER
JAMAICA /VN WYCK
B
TO DITMARS BLVD
VIA BROADWAY
B
QUEENSBORO PLZ
VIA BROADWAY
D
TO DITMARS BLVD
VIA BROADWAY
D
QUEENSBORO PLZ
VIA BROADWAY
N
N
TO DITMARS BVLD
BROADWAY LOCAL
VIA BRIDGE
N
TO DITMARS BLVD
N
QUEENSBORO PLZ
N
QUEENSBORO PLZ
BROADWAY EXP
N
QUEENSBORO PLZ
BROADWAY LOCAL
Q
TO DITMARS BLVD
VIA BROADWAY
Q
QUEENSBORO PLZ
VIA BROADWAY
R
TO DITMARS BLVD
BROADWAY LOCAL
R
QUEENSBORO PLZ
BROADWAY LOCAL
S
TO DITMARS BLVD
S
QUEENSBORO PLZ
SHUTTLE
T
TO DITMARS BVLD
VIA BROADWAY
T
QUEENSBORO PLZ
VIA BROADWAY
Q
TO DITMARS BLVD
VIA BROADWAY
Q
QUEENSBORO PLZ
VIA BROADWAY
TO DITMARS BLVD
TO ASTORIA BLVD
TO 30 AV/QUEENS
TO BROADWAY/QNS
TO 36 AV/QUEENS
TO 39 AV/QUEENS
QUEENSBORO PLZ
A
TO BRIGHTON BCH
VIA 6 AV
BRIGHTON EXP
A
TO CONEY ISLAND
VIA 6 AV
BRIGHTON LOCAL
B
TO BRIGHTON BCH
6 AV LINE
VIA BRIGHTON
B
TO BRIGHTON BCH
VIA BROADWAY
VIA BRIGHTON
B
TO CONEY ISLAND
6 AV LINE
VIA BRIGHTON
B
TO CONEY ISLAND
6 AV VIA
CULVER
G
HOYT - SCHERMERHN
CROSSTOWN LOCAL
D
TO DEKALB AV
D
TO ATLANTIC AV
D
TO PROSPECT PK
D
TO KINGS HIGHWY
6 AV EXPRESS
BRIGHTON LINE
D
TO BRIGHTON BCH
6 AV EXPRESS
BRIGHTON EXP
D
TO BRIGHTON BCH
6 AV EXPRESS
BRIGHTON LOCAL
D
TO BRIGHTON BCH
VIA BROADWAY
BRIGHTON EXP
D
TO BRIGHTON BCH
VIA BROADWAY
BRIHTON LOCAL
D
TO BRIGHTON BCH
SHUTTLE
D
TO W 8 ST/BKLYN
SHUTTLE
D
TO CONEY ISLAND
D
TO CONEY ISLAND
6 AV EXPRESS
BRIGHTON EXP
D
TO CONEY ISLAND
6 AV EXPRESS
VIA CULVER
D
TO CONEY ISLAND
6 AV EXPRESS
VIA SEA BEACH
D
TO CONEY ISLAND
6 AV EXPRESS
VIA WEST END
D
TO CONEY ISLAND
VIA BROADWAY
BRIGHTON EXP
D
TO CONEY ISLAND
VIA BROADWAY
BRIGHTON LOCAL
D
TO COENY ISLAND
6 AV VIA ESSEX
VIA NASSAU ST
F
TO BRIGHTON BCH
6 AV LOCAL
VIA BRIGHTON
M
TO BRIGHTON BCH
VIA BRIGHTON
M
TO CONEY ISLAND
VIA BRIGHTON
N
TO BRIGHTON BCH
BROADWAY LINE
VIA BRIGHTON
N
TO CONEY ISLAND
BROADWAY LINE
VIA BRIGHTON
G
TO BERGEN ST
CROSSTOWN LOCAL
Q
TO DEKALB AV
Q
TO ATLANTIC AV
Q
TO PROSPECT PK
Q
TO BRIGHTON BCH
6 AV EXPRESS
BRIGHTON LOCAL
Q
TO BRIGHTON BCH
VIA BROADWAY
BRIGHTON EXP
Q
TO BRIGHTON BCH
VIA BROADWAY
BRIGHTON LOCAL
Q
TO CONEY ISLAND
6 AV EXPRESS
BRIGHTON EXP
Q
TO CONEY ISLAND
6 AV EXPRESS
BRIGHTON LOCAL
Q
TO CONEY ISLAND
VIA BROADWAY
BRIGHTON EXP
Q
TO CONEY ISLAND
VIA BROADWAY
BRIGHTON LOCAL
S
TO ATLANTIC AV
SHUTTLE
S
TO PROSPECT PK
SHUTTLE
S
TO KINGS HIGHWY
SHUTTLE
S
TO BRIGHTON BCH
SHUTTLE
S
TO W 8 ST / BKLYN
SHUTTLE
S
TO CONEY ISLAND
SHUTTLE
V
TO BRIGHTON BCH
VIA 6 AV
BRIGHTON EXP
V
TO CONEY ISLAND
VIA 6 AV
BRIGHTON LOCAL
W
TO BRIGHTON BCH
VIA BROADWAY
BIRGHTON EXP
W
TO CONEY ISLAND
VIA BROADWAY
BRIGHTON LOCAL
TO DEKALB AV
TO ATLANTIC AV
TO 7 AV /BKLYN
BRIGHTON LINE
TO PROSPECT PK
TO PARKSIDE AV
TO CHURCH AV
BRIGHTON LINE
TO BEVERLY RD
TO CORTELYOU RD
TO NEWKIRK AV
TO AVENUE H
TO AVENUE J
TO AVENUE M
TO KINGS HIGHWAY
BRIGHTON LINE
TO AVENUE U
BRIGHTON LINE
TO NECK ROAD
TO SHEEPSHEAD
TO BRIGHTON BCH
TO OCEAN PKWY
TO W 8 ST/BKLN
BRIGHTON LINE
TO W 8 ST/BKLYN
TO CONEY ISLAND
BRIGHTON LINE
TO CONEY ISLAND
B
TO 57 ST/ 7 AV
VIA BROADWAY
B
TO 57 ST/7 AV
SHUTTLE
D
TO 57 ST/7 AV
VIA BROADWAY
E
TO 34 ST/BWAY
VIA BROADWAY
E
TO CANAL ST
VIA BROADWAY
E
TO WHITEHALL ST
VIA BROADWAY
N
TO LEX AV/60 ST
N
TO 57 ST/7 AV
BROADWAY EXP
N
TO 57 ST / 7 AV
4 AV EXPRESS
BROADWAY LOCAL
N
TO 57 ST/7 AV
4 AV LOCAL
BROADWAY EXP
N
TO 57 ST / 7 AV
BROADWAY LOCAL
Of course, the abandoned 42nd street(IND)location would be great. And those of you who shoot it down because the 7 train is going to run through there must realize that we would get a minimun of 10 years out of the 42nd street location before anything actually happens with the 7 expansion.
Chambers street on the M/J/Z lines would be great as well. Eliminate M service to Chambers during the day to begin with. Run M to Broad instead, for the sake of creating the museum.
Then, you can place trains on both middle tracks, while utilizing the middle platform as well. Maybe, you can even you the current N/B platform for additional space, and reopen the abandoned N/B platform for passenger use. This gives you two full-size platforms, and two tracks for old trains to sit on.
All those posts about how the V train is not going to work are not acurate.
For one, passengers from brooklyn DO NOT use the 51st./Lex station to transfer to the 6. They simply get off at Jay, and take the A/C to B'way/Nassau for the 4/5. Some passengers do get off at that stop, but xferring to the V ast 2nd av will not be a problem, as it will be similar to the G train at Smith-9th.
As for the Queens side of the equation, it will suffer, because people won't be able to use the new tunnel between Roosevelt/Queens plaza. However, they likely won't miss anything, as a lot of people get off at at 51st and lex in this direction.
OK, I took that horrible 2 hr F train ride to Brooklyn last Saturday and took a weird test. Assuming I am normal enough, pass the drug test, what is next?
What kind of hours and assignments to you get right out of school?
Unheated Rockaway shuttles in the winter and unairconditioned yard work in the summers? Will they do something stupid and put me on a rush hour 1 train my first day out? Or will my commute get worse by putting me on the SIRT?
What is the 40 hr school like? How big is a typical class? Are you really short of people now? I am trying to figure out how long it will take to hit my list number (260's).
Recently while riding this line,I was riding northbound at around 7:45 pm, I noticed that several Dyre Avenue southbound trains were heading towards Newlots Avenue.Do these trains go out to New Lots and return, or they go into the Livonia Yard? My train was coming from Flatbush Avenue.
http://www.ushistory.org/philadelphia/special/railroad.htm
No pictures, but describes the exact route of all the lines, as well as a timeline of the companies that built each line. Lots of info!
Amidst all this Manhattan bridge commotion, the V line has been over looked. So, I have a question:
What equipment will be used on the V?
With the G running to court square, it will be 4 car R-46 trains. But what about the V? The 13 A-A and 1 A-B unit seem to have no home. Because of this, I think that the V will be 6 car R-46 trains. But if anyone has any info, please inform me.
Thanks
I'd like to see the Broad/Ridge Spur continue through the now-PATCO controlled Locust St. subway, extend West a block to Rittenhouse Square at 19th St., then turn North towards Logan Circle. An interchange station would be built with the MFL at 19th and Market (it always irked me that stations are every 3 blocks East of Broad, but there are none for 15 blocks West of Broad); then run under the Parkway (or Pennsylvania Ave.) past the Art Museum and maybe continue across the river to the Zoo and run on the surface on the North side of Parkside Ave. Just a fantasy. What do you think?
I'm giving a little quiz on BusTalk called the "Brooklyn/Staten Island bus quiz".
The FIRST person to get all 10 questions right will win both items FREE!:
1) A brand new, never used "Do Not Hold Doors" subway sticker.
AND
2) A brand new 2000 London Underground subway map.
Try it over on BusTalk. You've got nothing to lose!
it slightly different by the electric map and computer. electric map is different by looks. stops light up brighter and direction arrows are white printed. they still light up but you can only see it in the dark. the computer is the same but slightly modified on software for reliability purposes.(that part is just rumor, so far, someone gave me news on that part) overall its just the same as the others. thought i'd let u know if ur interested.
I am so glad to be back on this great website. MY ISP terminated sunday and it terminated my email. Then I decided with my new email I wanna new handle. My old handle was F TRAIN. I now am returning as
E To JAMAICA CENTER. I like this handle better, because whenever I take the subway, I live half an hour by bus from Parsons Archer. And I have basically grown up with the E, and 95% of the time Whenever I railfan, it mostly ends with the E.
See u layta.
I just had a very nice phone conversation with Ed. He is completely moved back to Livingston, Montana, and is in the process of unpacking. I told him of the warm wishes sent by a number of the SubTalkers, he really misses everyone, and not being able to participate here. He says that he may surprise us soon by getting back to this site.
His son in Livingston has a computer, and he is going to try to get back to SubTalk in the near future, at least for short periods of time. Let's hope he will be able to join us soon.
My brother-in-law is marrying a woman who has a daughter from a prior marriage. She is 17 years old, quite pretty, and a high school senior, and is now faced with hanging out with her new "family," an awkward situation at a awkward age. She seems to be handling it well.
Since our oldest girl is 8 years old, I wasn't sure what to buy a teen for a Christmas present. I saw her mom over the weekend, and she said that the teen likes to wear baggy clothes, mostly black, like her friends. I naturally thought of a black subway t-shirt from the Transit Museum store at Grand Central, with a line marking on it.
I was going to go, but my wife was in Midtown for a meeting, so she offered to pick it up for me. But she called later and said that she had picked up a t-shirt that said "No Exit," thinking that might be "cool" for a teen. It cost $21 bucks.
I was very disappointed. My first thought was that you can pick up a black t-shirt that says "No Exit" anywhere -- my wife is obviously unfamiliar with the play, and tendency for people who wear black to pretend they are "existentialists" without knowing what that means. So much for the subway idea. But we are married, so I said "yes dear."
Then I actually looked at the t-shirt. It actually says "No Entry." I imagined my future niece opening this up at Christmas in front of my in-laws, a family of cruel jokesters. I pondered the odds of a 17 year old girl actually wearing that t-shirt to high school.
I'm going tomarrow to exchange it for t-shirt with an "F" train logo on it. Never send a spouse to do a subway buff's job.
Hi All,
I wouldn't normally announce the addition of one new photo here but we have our first picture of the Kawasaki R-143, courtesy Nathan Comens. Enjoy!!!
Whenever I take the Q28 along Crocheron ave, just after it turns off Northern Blvd, there appears to be two red lights at the street dead ends (where the Port Washington branch of LIRR runs).
Why are they there and what are they used for?
Imagine for a moment, that New York City had no subway system. The only surface transit would be the current system of local, limited, and express buses, and the only rail transit would be PATH, the LIRR, MNRR, and SIRT(OA). The ferries would be the same
But imagine that - no subways. Can you imagine a trip from the Upper West Side to Kennedy Airport, for example?
M104 bus to 42nd/Madison
Q32 to Queensboro Plaza
Q60 to Union Turnpike
Q10 to Kennedy Airport
That's like a half-day trip!
I heard that Los Angeles is basically a New York less the subway.
Imagine that . . .
I understand that Mike (aka SubBus) will be going for Conductor orientation sometime this morning.
I wish him well as I'm sure alot of us here, so that we'll see him "on the road" someday soon, sticking his head out the CR's position and alerting us to "watch the closing doors" (hopefully, he'll give us time to pull in our coattails and/or shopping bags...;-)
Anyhow: Mike -- best of luck and let us know how "boot camp" goes.
BMTman
from the Times-->>
Roger Toussaint,
44, a leader of the
union's upstart New
Directions faction,
won 12,465 or 60.5
percent of the votes <<
less than 30 words
This will be interesting no doubt
If the Mta was to introduce music in trains during the ride, what would be your favorite band, artist or song?
I'm just thinking of all the bands that I would love to hear while riding the system.
Dave Matthews, Rush, Live, Tragically Hip, Van Halen, Doors "Riders on the Storm", could be cool. Cream, The Who, Pearl Jam. Yeah Baby...
What do you think?
This will be veeeerrry interesting,
NEW DIRECTIONS TAKES OVER
Peace,
ANDEE
He should of gotten life with no parole,
SHOVER GETS 25 YEARS
Peace,
ANDEE
Four-year-old fell between train and platform at Times Square shuttle; story in Daily News.
Investigation of 3 year olds death continues,
NY1 UPDATE
Peace,
ANDEE
Heard on WRTI (Temple University Public Radio) traffic and transit report at 6:28 this morning: R3 West Trenton Line has no service available to West Trenton, Yardley, Woodbourne, and Langhorne Stations due to a CSX freight train derailment. Commuters should seek alternate transportation by driving to the R7 Cornwell Heights Station accessible at I-95 South.
Subsequently heard Rossini's William Tell Overture.
Burlington County is applying for state funding to assist in establishing shuttle bus service to the under-construction Trenton-Camden light rail line. Story in Trenton Times.
In preparation for this afternoon's ACELA EXPRESS trip to NYC, I drove this morning to the Route 128 station in a nasty snow storm. My strategy was to park there, take the MBTA in to Boston for work, return to Route 128 this afternoon and pick up my suitcase from my car -- then board the AE. The usual 30 minute drive to the station took over 60 mintues (leaving my house at 5:30 am). I got to Route 128 station in time for MBTA #902 (6:44am), which never came. Then #802 (6:58am) never came. Finally, #904 came at 7:16. The engineer told me that he was #902 running on #904's schedule. A stuck switch at Canton Junction had all trains in both directions stacked up; he was surprised they let him through. [As of this writing, 8:40am, my colleague who takes #802 from Providence is still not in the office, over an hour late.]
When I got to South Station, I noted on the Tote Board that the northbound AE is running an hour and 45 minutes late this morning. Does anyone know if there are systematic problems on the NEC between WAS and NYP this morning?
I found a fairly decent interactive graphic describing the Acela Express trainset on the Washington Post website. It's not terribly technical, but might be informative to those who don't know a transformer from a pantograph. (Although I could look at it at home, my !@#$%^&* work PC isn't cooperating. I think our firewall is set up to reject such "flash" graphics and video.) Anyway, those of you still in the land of the free can click
Inside Acela.
I am coming to Boston and a few weeks and have two questions.
1. Is South Station outdoors? I would like to get a good picture of the Acela Express trainset upon alighting. New York Penn is in a tunnel and I don't want the train leaving without me.
2. Does the Red T Line have a railfan window? I saw a picture on the line by line section and it appeared it didn't.
Thanks, in advance.
Still can't figure this one out ...
I took the LIRR to Flatbush Avenue this morning, as I do from time to time, and got a Bronx-bound 2 at Atlantic at around 8:30. When we got to Wall Street, the train remained stopped with the doors open for several minutes. Finally, the conductor announced that we were being held because of a sick passenger on our train. Terrific. As it didn't look like we'd be going anywhere for a while, I went out onto the platform to wait. A few cars back, in the conductor's car for that matter, a young woman was lying on the bench seats while another woman fanned her with a large envelope. All the other passengers were exiting that car at the conductor's direction. He closed its doors as soon as the last ones left.
I was standing on the platform, trying to figure out whether I should walk to the 1/9 at Rector or Cortlandt, when all of a sudden the conductor closed the doors to the other cars. Many passengers, me included, were left behind on the platform. The train pulled out, and I could see the sick passenger still lying down and being fanned off by the other rider. I got on the next train and rode two stops to Chambers without delay.
While I'm certainly not complaining, I am quite surprised by this turn of events. Why would the conductor evacuate a car due to a sick passenger, but then leave without waiting for EMS to arrive?
This
is
a
test
This is a test
this
is
a
test
Mr Bob Killey, who is now running the London Underground, has been creditted in some newspapers as having "saved" the New York Subway. Is this true ? If so what did he do ?
Simon
Swindon UK
Does anyone know where one can buy 'o' scale brass trolley models in Korea ? as my son will be stationed there next year in the army,he'd like to buy the models there and send them home,does anyone know if a duty will be put on the models and if so how much, also how much would one pay for a brass 'o'scale model in Korea ? anyone know ? thanks.
In the NYCSUBWAY.org website, there is an article on the R-30 fan trip that took the visitors to the lower level of the BMT 9th Avenue station. The text indicates that this station posed as "Times Square" in the film "Crocodile Dundee."
That is incorrect. I just saw that movie again and the station was not called Times Square, but 59th Street. I e-mailed this correction in to the Webmaster but the error remains.
Finally I found a scanner to scan my 4x6 photos. Since these photos are generated from my slides, the resolutions are not as well as scanning directly from sildes.
AEM-7AC 901 and 918 entering New Carrollton, MD on 9/21/00
Acela Express inaugural run through Landover, MD on 11/16/00
HHP-8 654 running through Chase, MD on 11/22/00
My only regret about the Acela Express photo is that it was cloudy.
Chaohwa
Well I made it in the pouring rain. There were about 30 people there. For the conductors position, there were about 10 people. After reviewing the paper work, and going to SS office, I took the urine test. The whole process took about 3 hours. The class itself will start on Jan 2. So I should be hearing from TA within the next few days.
Railfan:
1. Board L train#4620 @ Livonia. Where I was sitting had the heater right under me. Leaky windows and the storm door flew open on the curve between Wilson and Halsey. The door returned to the latch.
2. Grand St had a waterfall this morning.
3. After the drug test, boarded a R to 42St. Was going to wait for the R110B. R32#3904 pulled into the station. Was going to take the E to JC but a sick passenger at 5Av made me changed that idea. Left the train at 7Av.
4. Went upstairs at 7Av and transferred to the D. R68#2917 was very clean and bright on the inside. The 6Av dash was screwed because of track work. Got off at W4.
5. Just missed an A, so that was it because another one was not coming for a while. Was about to go downstairs when I noticed a weird sign. The sign stated that the C and E trains were running via the 3Av local. Took a pic of that oddity. Went downstairs for F.
6. When the F pulled in, guess who comes across the platform but R40#4173. Temptation, Temptaion. I chose the F because I wanted to see the J line stations that was in the process of rebuilding. Took F to Delancey.
7. Boarded J train. Saw an off duty motorman. We began to talk and told about the oppurtunities that I had once I become a conductor. He also told me to choose the B division since I live in Bklyn. Never saw the stations that was under construction.
8. At Bway Jct, I saw the lamp posts that Mr. Slant 40 was talking about. I also noticed a sunroof over the J/L mezzanine. At Atlantic, the track most adjacent to the Canarsie track was lifted and only the steelwork is left. There is a red crane @ Liberty and Snediker that I believed part of removing these tracks. I wonder if the upcoming GO on the L has anything to do with the track removal at Atlantic?
All in all, a very productive day.
Train#1941Mike
I just got through sharing info with STEVEB8AVEXP about our early experiences with the subway, and I came to the conclusion that a good new post might be to get my colleagues to let everyone else know when they first got interested in the New York Subway. Was it one ride, or a series of rides that sold you? Did it come at a young age or when you reached adulthood? Let's face it, we are a very enthusiatic bunch, and some might even think of us as somewhat odd. So let us know when did the Love Bug hit?
Yeah, everyone has given their 2 cents on this, so it's my turn:
Scrap the V line altogether. Operate the F thru 63rd. St. at all times and operate the E thru 53rd. St. at all times. Compensate by running 15 E's and 15 F's an hour during rush hours (up from 12/14 respectively), reduced to 10 trains an hour on each line during the midday hours. Short turn some of the F's at Second Ave. to avoid increasing the logjam at Smith/9th where the G terminates.
Re-route the new proposed W route from it's intended destination of Astoria to 71st/Continental Ave. Queens Blvd. local riders would then have the R and W lines (both operating via 60th st.) providing service.
The V line could be introduced after the north side Manhattan bridge opens, and the R143's are in full service.
Began with the Oyster Bay train, from Sea Cliff at 12:27pm. For a change the announcements worked on the double decker, and things ran pretty smoothly. Unfortunately after Roslyn the announcements conked out, so they had to be done manually. They never work properly, and were a big waste of money (unessesary bells and whistles).
Of course even though I'm only going to Jamaica I have to change at Mineola. We all get off the train, and the platform is very crowded. For some reason it takes a few minutes for the train to pull out, delaying the one behind it.
The M-1 train finally pulls in and is packed (yep I had to stand). It took several minutes trying to get the doors to close.
We finally got going at around 1:05pm, fortunately the trip was fast, though a bit slow around NHP, around which the lights went out on the train for a minute.
Finally was glad to depart the "silver snail" at Jamaica where I went down to the subway for the E.
Once I get there I move to the west end of the platform and an E pulls in. Damn! Another R46 E. It seems whenever I wait at Jamaica they come along. Well I wanted a front window so I waited for the next train, which was fortunately R32's. Pretty fast trip till about Roosevelt when we caught up to an F in front of us, for some reason whenever I take the E there seems to always be an F in front.
So speed wasn't too impressive after Roosevelt, creeping out of Roosevelt then finally getting some speed in the express tunnels.
Well at leas 53rd street was reasonably fast. I always notice there is what appears to be wires around a section of the tunnel labeled "Do Not touch", between 5/53rd and 7th ave stations, I wonder what those are for.
We are held for a C to pass in front of us at 50th, then proceed.
Just miss an A at 42nd, but when we get to 14th the A hasn't made much progress. Get out at 14th for a trip on the L.
Fortunately just make an R42 L and get the window. At Union Square a guy comes on and said to me "You made it to the window first". Fortunately for him, he can have it after a trip through the 14th street tubes. Brooklyn bound the T/O was very fast, playing the signals very close, the GT's would clear just as we passed them. I hold on for dear life, expecting to get tripped.
At Bedford I get off. There seems to a very trendy crowd in that area, they must have spread out of Union Sqaure. Get another R42 Manhattan bound, but the T/O is a real scardy cat and the ride was slow.
Get off at Union Square and walk around. Really nice area, busy and clean, and alot of good stores around like Virgin and Barnes and Noble for example. Don't see many chinese around, mostly white yuppies. Man that area has changed!
After that I wanted to go to Chinatown, so I went down to the IRT station. There were huge crowds waiting on the downtown local track, and an empty 4 train of R62's on the express. The train must've gotten stuck.This was around 3 or 4 in the afternoon. A packed 4 pulled in on the local track. It was too packed, I'd wait for the 6. But then a 5 pulled in. So I figured I'd get on. By that time the stuck train was moved, but I'd take the 5 down to Brooklyn bridge for an uptown 6. We ran express on the local track, it wasn't much of an express since we had to slow down at each station and honk.
Waited awhile for a uptown 6 train, as announcements were being made that there was NO Brooklyn bound 4,5 service, that they were diverted to the west side, because on an "incident" at 14th street.
A 6 finally came, and went through Chinatown. Not too busy, but there were still plenty of people around.
Went to Grand street and just missed a Q. Had to wait awhile then a B came. Took it to 34th and crossed over for a S/B Q train.
It came shortly, the cab door was open and the dash was sweet. Our Q train of slants hit 47mph. That 34-W4th dash is one of the fastest spots in the system! It will surely be missed once the flip happens.
Got off at W4th, got an E to 42nd, then walked over to the 7 train.
Just missed an express, but only had to wait a few minutes for another. A good evening express ride back to Flushing, although it appeared the Casey Stengal lot got flooded.
Also went looking for the departure bell. In some stations it appeared to be in a box, while at main street the bells looked new and were near the top of pillars.
New Directions swept the top 3 seats, now hold 37 seats out of 46 on the executive board, and hold 5 out of 7 vice president slots.
Results:
President-
Roger Toussaint received 12,465 votes.
Eddie Melendez received 4,347 votes.
Willie James received 3,786 votes.
Secretary-Treasurer-
Ed Watt received 12,471
Joe Pajewski 4,310 (Mel)
Swainson Gill 3,541 (Jam)
Recording Secretary-
Noel Acevedo received 12,332
Julia McMillon 4,174 (Mel)
Virginia McGeagh 3,804 (Jam)
ND won the VP positions in Mtce. Of Way (Julio Rivera), Stations
(Darlyne Lawson), Car Maintenance (Neil Persaud)., RTO (Tim Schermerhorn), and TA Surface (Amin Khan).
The VP for the Private Lines will be George Jennings. The VP for
MaBSTOA will be Gil Rodriquez.(Both non-ND)
ND won the Executive Board seats in Track, Structure, Line
Equipment/Signals, Stations, Car Mtce., Conductor/Tower, Train
Operators, TA Surface Mtce, TA Surface Operators, and Westchester/NY Bus.
Over the past two days I've been in downtown Milwaukee taking measurements for an upcoming renovation project. Milwaukee is a cool city that is sort of like a little miniature version of Chicago, but with one glaring defect: No rail transit!!
Being entirely dependent upon streets and expressways, Milwaukee finds itself in the position of being royally f***ed when a major traffic artery is disrupted. Such a major disruption occurred yesterday when two I-beams on the Hoan Bridge broke, causing a large section of roadway to buckle as much as twelve feet. A single remaining intact I-beam -- discovered to have hairline cracks during a routine inspection a few weeks ago -- is all that is keeping that section of span from completely collapsing.
It's interesting to note that the bridge is only 20 years old, and was originally dubbed "the bridge to nowhere" because it was built as a pork-barrel project by the city's mayor despite massive public opposition. For years it had ramps that literally ended in mid-air. (One of these such ramps gave the bridge a starring role in The Blues Brothers, serving as the launching pad for the two Illinois Nazis during the chase sequence. Nevermind the fact that the scene supposedly took place in Chicago.) Now, once again, the Hoan is literally the bridge to nowhere.
(Here's the article from the Milwaukee Journal-Sentinel about the bridge, along with photos.)
Needless to say, the span has been closed to traffic and will likely remain closed for at least a year while they make repairs. Motorists used to taking the bridge are now forced to find alternate routes, and the result in downtown Milwaukee yesterday evening was near total gridlock. (An accompanying snowstorm certainly made things worse, but a few inches of snow is nothing for people who live in Milwaukee.)
I rode with a co-worker while he drove his car from one parking garage (where we were working) to the hotel garage not more than a couple blocks away. The trip took at least half an hour; I could have walked the distance in a fraction of that time period. If it weren't spitting snow and if I didn't have a lot of stuff to carry, I probably would have gotten out and done just that. But what about the people who have a much greater distance to travel? Busses were just as useless because they share the same streets as everybody else. Some sort of subway and/or light rail system would have been put to good use in a situation like that, but unfortunately that was not an option.
The moral of the story: Crack open a can of Pabst Blue Ribbon and hug your subway!!
-- David
Safely back home in Chicago, IL
Just about an hour ago I arrived in NYC on the ACELA EXPRESS. Since most of you know the basic facts of the train, I'll limit my comments to personal observations which may be of interest.
I was on #2175, the 5:12 departure from Boston South Station. I chose to board the train at the suburban Route 128 station, since it has a large parking garage ($10/day). The train was due at 5:26, and arrived five minutes late at 5:31. It arrived on Track 2, the northbound track, so that it could pass MBTA locals between Boston and Providence. I rode "business class," which is main seating, in 2x2 configuration ("first class" is 2x1, and about one-third more fare). In no particular order of importance:
We hit 150 mph for about 20 miles in Rhode Island, according to the conductor.
You can feel the tilt kick-in for the first few minutes, but then you get used to it. It really helped dampen the lateral forces. At relatively slow speeds, the tilt does not work, and you can notice the curves then!
In the cafe car, there is a maintenance closet. Since there were a dozen or more technicians/suits lurking on-board, it was open most of the time. In the closet was a small CRT with diagnostic data. But most interestingly, a speed read-out! When I peeked in, it said 130. I ran back to my seat for my camera, and when I returned, we were at 66 :-(
The train is very, very smooth. Similar to a jet aircraft in flight, with only minor ripples. But that makes you notice the constant acceleration/deceleration a lot more.
The train is very, very quiet. But that makes you notice distractions inside the car more, such as the four youngsters making a lot of noise in my car, and running up and down the aisle. This was a lot more annoying than the low din of cell phone users.
Walking through the train, I'd estimate that about 50% of the passengers were using an electronic device of some type, such as a computer, cell phone, PDA, CD or DVD player, etc.
The cafe car has only 12 stools and a narrow counter for eating. This encourages people to return to their seats to eat. The food wasn't too bad -- I had a burger, chips, and white wine (couldn't resist) for $9. A bit pricey, but then again, you don't get a high-speed train ride when you eat at a gourmet restaurant, do you?
In business class, seating is 2x2. It is interesting to note that the seat "numbers" are (for example, in my row): 11A&C 11D&F. This is similar to first class in airplanes, whereas coach has ABC and DEF. I think they're trying to give the illusion of first class! Of course, there's no way 3x3 seating could be installed. I hope!
The electronic destination signs inside my car were stuck on "Next Stop: Back Bay" all trip.
We arrived at NY Penn Station six minutes late. So we lost one minute enroute. Not bad! All-in-all, a very enjoyable trip. I just wish it was light out so that I could have enjoyed the scenery zip by. However, the appraoch to NYC was particularly beautiful going over the Hell Gate Bridge.
Unfortunately, my return on Saturday is on a "slow" Acela Regional electric, and the Expresses don't run on weekends yet.
On Wednesday, I had an opportunity to peek out of the first door of the six-car G train enroute to Brooklyn, and saw the new punches which were installed at 36 Street in Queens.
On the IND Local there are five punches currently labeled - one for the 63rd Street connector, and the other four for the lines currently served through this area - one for E, one for F, one for G and one for R.
Two assumptions -
- My guess is that the express track has these five punches plus a sixth for the reconstructed layup track, and
- These will eliminate the Queens Plaza punches.
- Jose
Brit Hume on Fox News tonight was saying the Bush people and House Speaker Dennis Hastert would like to get Tom DeLay out of the House of Representatives (DeLay being part of the group of Texas Republicans that thing Bush was too liberal as governor). To that end, they're considering offering him the post of Transportation Secretary.
DeLay, of course, was the man who single-handedly strangled Houston's attempt to build a light rail system this past year. And while he doesn't control the transportation pursestrings (Bud Schuster of Pennsylvania owns that honor), considering how DeLay feels about Democrats in general and Hillary in particular, were this rumor turn out to be true you could expect to see DeLay try to tighten the screws on New York State, and on NYC in particular, as much as possible (and knowing DeLay's attitude he really wouldn't care if it got Pataki defeated for re-election in 2002 because he's even more liberal than Bush is, in the Hammer's eyes)
Brit Hume on Fox News tonight was saying the Bush people and House Speaker Dennis Hastert would like to get Tom DeLay out of the House of Representatives (DeLay being part of the group of Texas Republicans that thinks Bush was too liberal as governor). To that end, they're considering offering him the post of Transportation Secretary.
DeLay, of course, was the man who single-handedly strangled Houston's attempt to build a light rail system this past year. And while he doesn't control the transportation pursestrings (Bud Schuster of Pennsylvania owns that honor), considering how DeLay feels about Democrats in general and Hillary in particular, were this rumor turn out to be true you could expect to see DeLay try to tighten the screws on New York State, and on NYC in particular, as much as possible (and knowing DeLay's attitude he really wouldn't care if it got Pataki defeated for re-election in 2002 because he's even more liberal than Bush is, in the Hammer's eyes)
The following is the New Directions election platform taken off the ND website( www.newdirections.net):
1) Salaries and benefits of elected officers and appointed staff will be sharply reduced. Salaries will be lowered to $75,000/yr for President, Secretary-Treasurer, and Recording Secretary. $70,000/yr for VP and $65,000 for Staff Reps. Medical benefits, sick time, and vacations will be the same as provided in the TWU/MaBSTOA contract. We will reform the staff pension plan based on the principle of equity with the working members of Local 100.
2)The Local's financial records shall be open to all Local 100 members.
3)Division chairs and other elected officers, to be decided upon by the division committees, will be placed on the union payroll to replace appointed staff reps in divisions.
4)We need a strong union presence on the job. The Union hall will be staffed 24/7. We will build a network of stewards and safety reps, chosen by the members where possible, throughout the local. We will start a stewards council where stewards from all divisions can meet, exchange ideas, and develop strategies for dealing with management. we will exercise our right to shut down unsafe work.
5)We will work to break down barriers created by our different titles and divisions. In addition to regular monthly Division and Section meetings, we will hold local-wide membership meetings, joint division meetings, and meetings away from the union hall in communities where Local 100 members live and work.
6)Many of our members are single parents or have to look after children when their spouses work. We will explore ways to provide childcare at all union meetings to make it easier for all members to participate. we will also fight for better protection for our members who can't work, including maternity and disability benefits.
7)Full union rights for probationary and provisional workers, including in the disciplinary procedure.
8)We will fight for full Civil Service status for MaBSTOA employees. protect the MaBSTOA pension by incorporating it into NYCERS.
9)Real pension improvement. Transit workers deserve a further reduction in age and years of service needed for a pension. we will fight to restore 20/50, non-contributory, retirement plan, sacrificed in the 1970's.
10)Reject management's absolute right to set working conditions, schedules, tricks and picks. The union should be protecting and advancing seniority rights, not bargaining them away.
11)The bi-partisan support of the Taylor Law, workfare, and last December's injunctions against the free speech of transit workers show that working people need independent political voices. We should use our COPE money to organize with other unions and community groups to fight for the interests of transit workers in all political arenas and to run our own candidates who will truly, and finally, represent the interests of working people. Expand our political alternatives so that we no longer rely solely on the Democratic and Republican parties.
12)Organize a Local 100 Solidarity Committee. Our fight with management does not exist in a vaccuum. It is taking place in an increasingly anti-worker climate. The outcome of other workers struggles can have an impact on us. Declining levels of unionization, defeated strikes, and contract givebacks have weakened the position of all workers. A stronger labor movement will benefit us all.
13)We pledge to properly prepare to fight to win good contracts for all of Local 100's members. Those preparations will include:
*Strengthening the union on the job
*Organizing the membership to stop management's daily abuses and enforce our right son the job
*Building alliances with other unions, community groups, and the riding public
*Establish a Local 100 fighting fund
*Ensure that the Local will be able to function without the dues check-off
*Recognizing the possibility of a strike and preparing for that possibility
14)No union should take striking lightly. But no union can defend itself and its members if it rules out striking. Properly organized and properly prepared, transit workers can win a strike, save our jobs, stop the deterioration of our working conditions, defeat the Taylor Law, and win true pension improvement. If we are prepared and unified, a strike may not be necessary. The final decision on whether to strike or not can only be made by a vote of the Local membership. The officers' job is to make sure that the union is prepared for any eventuality.
Hi I was wondering if anyone would be interested in trading some extra R-6 number plates that my father gave me recently as were cleaning out his basement. The #'s are: 1315, 1316, 1317. I would be most interested in trading for builders plates from either streetcars or subways, or route signs from Low-V's as well as s