Anyone who will be in Amsterdam be advised that some of the Metro personnel are very friendly and will let you ride in the cab-same for Dutch Railways.I rode Line 51 this way and it is an interesting line,because it travels in tunnel,as light rail on the surface,and as metro above ground.It uses intermediate weight cars.Line 50 has new cars which are faintly reminiscent of 1930's streamline styling and a very unique color scheme.Line 51 shares track with a tram line also.
If people want a particular type of Amtrak service to operate, it is possible to charter a train to do this. Therefore, I have a plan to create a new Keystone Express service that would be to the Keystone Corridor what the Acela Express would be to the Northeast Corridor.
I am planning a new service from Harrisburg to New York City. The train would only stop at Coatesville, Paoli, Philadelphia, Newark, and New York. I plan to offer connecting buses from nearby towns to Harrisburg and Coatesville. The fare would be 25% higher than current Amtrak fares.
Currently, the plan is for a eastbound train to leave Harrisburg at 7AM and the return trip would leave at 5:30PM from Penn Station. Total travel time would be 3hrs 14mins. If anyone has other station suggestions or info I need to know, please post this here. If you might be interested in using this service, e-mail me at jazumah@hotmail.com and I will try to return your correspondence.
I guess you would call this service "Clocker"??
No no no no no. If you think if you can fill a train with people who can pool their money to charter it every day you're mistaken. Normal ticket prices are padded with state and federal subusdies. Charter trains do not see this money. You guys have to pay 100% of the cost which I believe would be much more than %25 more than a standard ticket. Furthermore you might nt be able to fit in the schedual.
Actually, the cost to operate Harrisburg trains (all inclusive) per mile is about .20 per mile. This translates to $39 per seat between New York and Harrisburg. Therefore, having about 180 people between Harrisburg and New York would do the trick as well as numerous combos of intermediate trips. Amtrak charters charge you the same fare per seat as regular commuters.
Is that 20 cents per person per mile or just per mile? Because in 1955 it a GG-1 used c.30 cents worth of electricity per mile. Also let's say the engineer gets $30 an hour and at 60 mph that's 50 cents per mile. Now factor in crew, maintainence, employment of rolling stock, terminal operations, track ware and tare etc.
20 cents per person per mile
IF the train is full. Big IF there.
I agree an all-electric (hey, why not use the new HHPs) Harrisburg-NYP Keystone Express Train would make sense. But here are the stops I'd propose:
Harrisburg - Harrisburg Intl. Airport (when it gets built) - Lancaster - Paoli - North Philadelphia (the NY & Pittsburgh Subway helps cut travel time immensely, and connections can be made to other Philadelphia locations via SEPTA) - Trenton - New York Penn
(I'm always annoyed at the fact that every single Amtrak train stops at Newark Penn. If you really want Newark, you could transfer at Trenton for NJT or New York for PATH, though PATH would involve with a short walk crosstown in Manhattan. But currently the trains only stop at Newark to discharge passengers, and probably have to anyway to get a line-up for the Hudson tunnel. It's still a pain after riding for almost 4 hours to stop there when you can see New York almost at your fingertips.)
Coatesville is more or less a "local" stop when you take the whole corridor into account.
Otherwise, I'm game! The faster service might attract more riders to offset the missed fares at the interim Keystone stops anyway!
I tracked down some old PRR timetables and I have even better news. If the NY and Pittsburgh Subway is electrified and operational, this could slash travel time from 3hrs 14mins to 3hrs 1min, making stops at Harrisburg, Lancaster, Paoli, North Philadelphia, Newark, and New York Penn Station. In the interest of speed and since Trenton receives a high level of service already, Trenton will NOT be a stop at this time.
Your responses please.
I rode a diesel-powered (Reading FP-7's) train through the New York and Pittsburgh subway in August. I think the caterary is still in place; I'll have to check my video.
I rode a diesel-powered (Reading FP-7's) train through the New York and Pittsburgh subway in August.
That was June. Time flies when you're having fun. The catenary was still in place.
August was the SubTalk SEPTA excursion, the Riverview and Woodside 2-foot gauge, and the March-of-Dimes Redbird trip.
Sure, axe Trenton. While we're at it, axe Paoli too! Each has more than enough commuter service.
Since today is the 82nd anniversary of the wreck we should all take a moment out to remember the 97 passengers who died at the scene plus the scores of injured included the 7 who succumbed to their injuries in area hospitals.
May they REST IN PEACE.....
AMEN !
Good point.
May all the victims of that disaster rest in internal peace.
BMTman
Having finally recovered from a nasty episode of bronchitis, I realized we just had three anniversaries of historic events. Obviously, the 27th was the subway's 96th birthday. In addition:
October 29 was the eleventh anniversary of the 63rd Street Tunnel to Nowhere, and the introduction of subway service to Roosevelt Island. I recall a lot of Islanders protesting this service because of the 'bad element' it was sure to bring in. Of course, these were probably the same people who screamed for years that they were solely reliant on the Tramway or a roundabout bus trip to Queens Plaza in order to get off the Island.
It's funny how the youngest trackage in service seems to be shut down for construction half the time. To be fair, much of this might be because of the imminent connection to Queens Boulevard, or to readjust connections to 6th and 7th Avenues.
It looks like the connection will actually be ready in a couple of years, which means the dead end at Queensbridge will have stood for less than fifteen years. That's not half bad, considering the stub end at 57th and 6th lasted twenty-one years, and the actual river tunnel stood open for at least fifteen years before service began.
The station at Lexington and 63rd seems to have been accepted by people living in the East 60s as a West Side-bound alternative to the '6'. Unfortunately, it's such a job getting out of the station, and 'Q' service outside of the rush hour is so sparse, that it's not that attractive an option.
October 30 was the 46th anniversary of the connection of the Smith Street IND to the Culver El by way of the ramp through Mc Donald Avenue between Church and Ditmas. Other than the Smith-9th viaduct, this was the first 'IND el'; posession of the Liberty El would occur in 1956.
Many people think the Culver was ALWAYS the IND 6th Avenue line, and scoff when told it was originally a BMT line. In truth, it must have been a very slow trip all the way up Mc Donald Avenue, then along 37th Street, up 4th Avenue and into what was then a much more congested (4th Avenue, Culver, Brighton, West End, Sea Beach, via Bridge or Tunnel to Broadway or Nassau Loop) BMT corridor. Trains from six lines can barely squeeze through DeKalb NOW!
Today of course, the outdoor West End and Brighton lines host 'IND' lines, so the whole concept of separate IND and BMT divisions is pretty much blurred. Speaking of which, isn't the 33rd anniversary of Christie Street coming up this month?
[Speaking of which, isn't the 33rd anniversary of Christie Street coming up this month?]
Yup, November 26th.
I remember some of the newspaper accounts of the mass confusion during the days and weeks after it opened. Trains ending up on the bridge instead of in the tunnel, that sort of thing.
And Malbone Street is today.
11/01/2000
Does anybody know when they began construction on the 63rd St. connector ?
I'd like to know how many years this project has been going on.
Bill "Newkirk"
The connector began in 1994. I'm not sure what month. I think it's somewhere on the MTAs site. The actual 63 Street Tunnel bagan way before that.
running on...
Well, IIRC the first tunnel section under the East River was lowered in place in 1970.
Hello. I was a senior at Long Island City High School (the old location on 41st Ave) in 1976 when the tunnel was being built on the Queens side.
You're correct. The tubes were first lowered after being shipped he by barge from Maryland in 1970. Funny, it took them 19 ears to open this short tunnel, et only 4 years to open the IRT Joralemon St. tube, which was much longer.
If you used the 63rd. St tunnel as a barmeter for ow long a full 2nd Ave line would take to construct, I'd say it would be at least a century.
Lets call it a "water tunnel" and at the last moment change the name to 2nd Ave subway.
The water tunnel has been under construction for thiry years.
avid
I seem to recall that construction of the 63rd St. tunnel started while I was in college. I graduated in 1967.
-- Ed Sachs
Does anyone know when construction is to begin on the new LIRR Jamaica station and how long it will take to complete?
When the Bond Act is passed Nov 7th, it is part of the MTA 5 yr Captial Plan. Truth who knows if that monies are tied to the Bond Act or not.
This past Sunday I met a friend visiting from out of town in the Village and observed a couple of strange GOs. It was made clear that the 'N' from Queens would turn at Canal Street (although most signs still read Coney Island), as the conductor advised us of split 'N' service available at 34th Street that would run from Manhattan to Brooklyn like the 'B' and 'D'. When we got to Union Square, he recommended that those remaining who were continuing to Brooklyn should change for the '4' and '6'(!) to Pacific Street for connections to Brooklyn service. He repeated this several times.
My friend (from Seattle, yet!) wanted to see Yankee Stadium now that the madness was over, so we got the 'D' at West 4th. We came in on the local track at 59th to the announcement that we would run local, but the 'A' and 'C' would run express. A 'C' was pulling in across the platform, so we grabbed it. Other than a rare full-consist on the 'A' a few years ago, this was the first time I'd been up the CPW express in an overhauled R-32. Needless to say, it was much better than a 44 or 68; we completely left the 'D' in the dust BEFORE we got to 72nd. We continued express to 145th, and got back on the 'D' we left behind after a ten-minute wait.
It's not unusual to have a string of local stations closed in one direction due to construction- ride Queens Boulevard any weekend- but this made no sense. The net result was a reversal of 'C' and 'D' service, and a lot of 'C' riders who didn't hear repeated "EXPRESS- 125th next- 'D' TRAIN MAKING ALL LOCAL STOPS ACROSS THE PLATFORM" announcements were horrified when they found themselves speeding past their stops. There was no evidence of any track work at the merges below 59th (the dogleg through 7th/53rd feeds into both local and express tracks uptown at 59th) or Homeball Alley that would prevent any normal switching manuevers by 'C' or 'D'. Downtown service appeared normal; a 'D' passed us going downtown running express through 116th, and a 'C' was stopped at the downtown local track at 125th.
It was very bittersweet at the Stadium; snow, freezing cold, a lot of leftover police barriers, all the stores across River Avenue shuttered, a few people taking pictures. The ground level PR office facing Rupert Place was open for some reason.
Funny how quiet Steinbrenner's been about the never-ending station renovation and the seemingly permanent plywood barricades. Very off-putting for a World Series! I think the last time both escalators were in place was when Billy Martin was manager.
After '4'ing it back to the Village and parting ways, I tried to get an 'N', preferably a 32, over the Bridge, but after waiting at West 4th downtown for over a half hour and seeing only 'B's and 'D's go by, I gave up.
That first Sunday of standard time is always very depressing.
Perhaps there was work being done on the local tracks south of 59th on 8th.
-Hank
I think Hank hit it on the rail head. If they are working the interchange south of 59th so they line up the D for local and leave 8th ave as the express.
He sure did:
A C Uptown trains run express from Canal to 145 St.
E Uptown trains run express from Canal to 34 Sts
Weekend, 11 PM Fri to 5 AM Mon, Oct 27 to 30
Uptown D runs local from 59 to 135 Sts
A C Trains stop at West 4, 14, 34, 42, 59, and 125 Sts. E trains stop at West 4 and 14 Sts.
For service to Spring and 23 Sts, take an uptown A C or E to West 4 or 34 Sts and transfer to a downtown A C or E.
For uptown service from Spring, and 23 Sts, take a downtown A C or E to 14 or Canal Sts and transfer to an uptown A C or E.
For service to 50 St, take the E instead.
For uptown service from 50 St, take a downtown A C or E to 42 St and transfer to an uptown A or C.
For service to 72, 81, 86, 96, 103, 110, 116, and 135 Sts, transfer to the D at 59 or 125 Sts.
For uptown service from these stations, take the D to 125 or 145 Sts and transfer to the A or C.
Got that off the MTA site.
They could have used the crossover north of 59, but why cross the trains unecessarily? You still had the same service, and infact, with 10-car-length (8-car R68) D trains on the local, better than the 8-car C trains.
Whats the latest with this line and the clean up? Any further news about the 65st yard?
Just that NY&A along with the LIRR and NYC Dept of Sanitiation did such a great job, you wouldn't recognize the place anymore!
65th Street Yard is still in limbo, if you're referring to the use of the float bridges there? Otherwise it is just a storage/interchange yard with NY CrossHarbor RR.
BMTman
I tell you, now that the line has been cleaned up, you can actually see where the second track used to be!
- Lyle Goldman
...and the third and fourth tracks, too! :-)
There were FOUR tracks?
Oh yes ... back when it was electricfied & the NH ran trains along the line. Doug may be doing his walk along the line, I went with him last year. You'll see the four tracks for yourself.
When I went on the NY & Atl fan trip down that line someone had some copies from Winter 1997 "The Keystone" "Constructing The New York Connecting". It contains some detail & photos.
Bob Anderson's site may also have some detail. The BMTman had a map he got from him (we were using it to ID turnouts, etc. as we walked).
Mr t__:^)
There you go with those abbreviations again! What's the NH?
11/04/2000
[There you go with those abbreviations again! What's the NH? ]
New Haven Railroad.
Bill "Newkirk"
A.K.A. (also known as) NYNH&H (New York, New Haven and Hartford) :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
11/04/2000
[A.K.A. (also known as) NYNH&H (New York, New Haven and Hartford) :-)
True Mr. Mouse. The NYNH & H sort of reflected the old olive drab days and plain old NH reflected the McGinnis regime and that unique black, white and orange livery. Falling victim to PC (Penn Central), mating worms !!
Bill "Newkirk"
Lyle,
Your comment brings a smile to my face. I play a board game with some friends. It's called Rail Barron. You have to gain control of the railways in USA so the others have to pay to use your line to get from point A to B. I know where the lines go and what they're called much better then they do, but don't always win the game. I also added LIRR & CNJ to my copy of the game to fill the open space, but they'll only take the PENN, NYC or B&O to come East, and they don't like my Montauk destination.
(CNJ = Central RxR of NJ; B&O = Balt. & Ohio; NYC = NY Central; PENN = Penn RxR)(NH = NYNH&H/NY, New Haven & Hartford)
Mr t__:^)
Last week, while riding on an F train to lexington Ave., a funny thing happened which I'd never encountered before. The door chimes worked fine when the doors opened to the left (34th, 42nd, 47-50th, Lex), but at 5th Ave, where they open to the right, the door chimes didn't ding-dong.
I also heard one R-46 whose number I didn't catch whose chimes sounded G-E. Talk about a clash of sounds. Oi vey!!
That's not bad. I was n a D Train where 1 side worked fine but the other side chimed when it opened and was silent when it closed.
running on...
That one, I believe it was 2668 was due to a defective DRU relay.
5040 makes a strange chime, has anyone heard it?
(it is quite evident)
The R-46 door chimes are always malfunctioning. That's just their way of saying hello.
:)Andrew
I noticed that even the R-62/62A door chimes can be out of tune. My fillings are all still intact, luckily.:-)
The door chimes are sounded by an electronic black box module
in each car. There are two trigger circuits, one on each side
of the car. Each circuit runs in series through all of the
door operators on that side through the door fully open microswitch.
When the negative transition occurs from all doors fully open to
not all doors fully open, that edge trigger sets off the door
chime oscillator which is gated into the PA circuit. A defective
or mis-adjusted microswitch on one of the door panels can cause
this type of failure. I'm sure it will be caught and corrected
in the next inspection cycle.
The door chime oscillator is a simple analog circuit. I think
it is an LC discrete transistor design. Component drift can cause
it to be off key. The R142s use digitally-synthesized tones and
will never be off pitch!
Hey Jeff,
Thanks for your always informative and detailed responses. It's like going to school! I have one small comment which will more than likely get me flamed...I always thought those little things that went wrong with a train-the harmless ones-like an out of tune door chime gave the trains a little bit of character. The R142's using digital sounds take away that possibility. I realize that in the big picture, trains are for moving people and not for fun, but still, I for one will miss quite a few things when all of the rolling stock becomes R142-like.
Marc
I'm not saying the digital system can never fail, it just isn't
likely to fail in the same colorful off-key way that a simple
analog oscillator does.
Also, I'm sure eventually someone will crack into the on-board
computer system and download new and "improved" digital
announcements :)
I agree, the different tones can be quite interesting
I'm trying to resurrect all of that valuable stuff from electronics school.:-) You would think the pitch was adjustable, by varying resistance in the circuit.
I'm not sure of the actual circuit inside the black box.
When I was with the TA in the department that worries about
things like door chimes, I tried to investigate what was
causing these failures (at the time on fairly-new R62A cars)
but I was told that it was a "vendor issue" under warranty.
I would imagine that the pitch is adjusted by some sort of
variable resistor, capacitor or inductor and then the adjustment
is sealed to prevent drift from vibration.
SOUR bells, SOUR bells, R46 chimes in the city...
Hear them ping, hear them ding, dissonance filling the air....
(with apologies to "Silver Bells")
#6119 wins the prize hands down. SOUR SOUR SOUR!!!
wayne
I have added 4 more "4" wreck photos for a total of 8....MORE to come.
UGLY...VERY...UGLY
Peace,
ANDEE
Ouchy-oochy!!!
TIN.
No match for a BMT standard, that's for sure.
Thanks for posting the pics...
Scary...
You are quite welcome
Peace,
ANDEE
Andee- the #1 picture - which one is that with the nose all scrunched up?
I STILL think that the downgrade had SOME effect on the way that car broke in two.
wayne
Sorry, Wayne I do not know what car that is. I do believe it to be the train that was hit. Will try to find out.
Peace,
ANDEE
SUBWAYSURF:
Kudos for the good photos of the wreck of the #4 train. Car No. 1369 looked like the jolly green giant sat on it. I can safely assume that car No. 1369 is a total loss. Thank god that no one was in that car at the time of the accident.
BMTJeff
And thank you for posting these photos.
The looks from the pictures suggest that the train was being driven pretty fast, I think this car would still be intact if the t/a did"nt mess with the coupling system that came with these cars. I came to that conclusion because, had the r62 had it's origanal couplers. The train or the subway cars may have just jumped off or had been knocked off the tracks. I'm still glad there were no passengers on none of these trains, I hope the t/o that was driving that train gets well soon.
A wrong assumption. The same thing would have happened. Subway car couplers (and for that matter, passenger car couplers) are designed so that they don't disconnect in a collision, unless it is particularly violent. Notice that the cars did not derail, and they were sill in a straight line. If the train cars had buckled sideways, or come uncoupled, they would have blocked the adjacent tracks, and made a bigger mess, possibly causing a secondary collision with a train that was in service.
-Hank
The link bars of 2805 and 2807 involved in the DeKalb Avenue derail were torn off one car but remained intact to the other.
running on...
Speaking of which - how are those two R68's doing - has CI elected to repair them? It looked like there was some serious end damage to #2807 (at about the anticlimber level) and somewhat lesser damage to #2805.
wayne
The last word that I got was that Coney Island Mtce. Shop got the 2 DeKalb Ave R-68s back from the overhaul shop. The two R-68As from Concourse yard are still out of service. As for this, most recent incident, looks like 3 cars will be scrapped. 1369 is definite. 1370 is extremely likely as is 1368.
I can't see how they could ever fix #1369 as her frame is compromised. If you get word on the disposition of #1368 and/or #1370, please pass it along. BTW - the car that got HIT - #1361, I think - how did that one make out?
thanks
wayne
The carbody obviously gave way at its weakest point - the center door. The floor structure would be stronger than that of the roof at that point, thus the body collapsed downward. Kudos to the wreck crew who got that thing straight enough to haul out of there. Speed may not have been as big a factor as one might think. The momentum of a 10 car train moving at even 5 miles per hour is immense. Hitting a fixed object of similar size with the brakes set is going to exert a tremendous force, since the law of conservation of momentum requires something to give. Over 700000 pounds going from 5mph to 0 in a fraction of a second releases a tremendous amount of energy into the stopped train. It wouldn't surprise me if other cars in both trains also have some less obvious damage in that area (cracks or small deformations) If the impact had occurred at higher speed the coefficient of friction of wheel to rail might have been overcome and the stopped train pushed a considerable distance.
Gerry
Would the downgrade have worsened this effect (looks like about a 5-degree slope southward at the accident site).
The R68 cars which crashed at DeKalb Avenue - the entire trainset back from the third car had its sides shivered and rippled by the impact; these are the minor deformations you describe.
wayne
The actual grade at the point of impact was 1.75%. Speculation is that the grade is a major contributing factor in explaining wht the 2nd car in the consist absorbed the bulk of the impact force.
To those with the inside information, a few questions:
1. How did the testing go with the type 8s over the past 2 weekends? Are they ready for revenue service again?
2. Earlier this fall it was mentioned that the T was ordering all new cars for the blue line, and adding new cars to the orange line, and that these orders would be placed by the end of the year. Is there any info on who will get this order, or what the design of the new cars will look like?
3. In addition, I saw an ad about the T increase on the subway, and one of the things mentioned that the increase would pay for is more new cars on the red line. Is this true, or did the T make a mistake?
My thanks in advance to whom ever has info. As always, as I find out Boston/New York info...I will certainly pass it along! -Nick
I'm not an "insider," but I have heard some information that will help answer your questions.
1. The T only did one weekend of testing on the Green Line's Riverside Branch, due to the heavy rain last weekend. They'll do it again this upcoming weekend... so the testing is not yet done.
2. The proposals for new rapid transit cars for the Blue Line and Orange Line are due later this month, so I suspect we won't see an award for a while yet. There is an option for converting Blue Line cars for use on the Orange Line if no vendor is interested in producing such a small order (20-some cars) for the Orange line; both lines' cars are the same width (111") but are of different lengths, such that eight Blue cars are the same length as six Orange cars.
3. I haven't heard anything about new Red Line cars, just Blue and Orange.
If I hear more, I'll pass it along.
The T only did one weekend of testing on the Green Line's Riverside Branch, due to the heavy rain last weekend. They'll do it again this upcoming weekend... so the testing is not yet done
Isn't the original problem with the Type 8's was that they couldn't brake properly when the tracks had leaves on them, or when they were wet or something like that? Wouldn't it make sense to test them in the rain? They'll be running in the rain during regular service anyway. Testing is supposed to show flaws in less than perfect conditions, right?
I think there biggest problem was that the center trucks were de-railing on switches & curves.
Mr t__:^)
You're right in part, but heavy rain doesn't cause slip/slide problems. It's when there's a fine mist that makes the leaves "greasy."
But I'm not involved with the testing, nor the plans, so I can only speculate.
A report at the BSRA meeting on Saturday night indicated that they found three possible causes for the derailments, one of which was excessive sway in the Type 7 car coupled on. The testing created possible causes but didn't reveal any quick-fix solutions. I was tending to various duties and didn't get the whole story from Johnathan Belcher.
As for the Red Line - they are expecting to get about 10 more years out of the aluminum 01500s and 01600s, presently the oldest in the fleet, marking them for retirement at about age 40. The cor-ten 01700s, which train with the older cars, probably will be retired soon afterwards since they will be too small a fleet to keep by themselves.
Gerry
This is hot off Eastern Rail News.
PARTIAL SOUTHERN TIER SALE IN THE WORKS...
Well after much rumor and speculation, it appears that there was some truth behind the line sale rumors. The inspection trip operated by Metro-North this past weekend did so to inspect the line from Suffern to Port Jervis, New York. Norfolk Southern has admitted to New York officials that they have been discussing the sale of the eastern portion of the Southern Tier to Metro-North. According to NY Department of Transportation official Steve Slavick, that sale, if completed, could extend to Binghamton, New York, giving MNCR right-of-way from Suffern to Binghamton, New York and opening up new passenger possibilities.
The Port Jervis crew base on Norfolk Southern is reportedly being abolished outright, with the 46G and 47G shifting southward also to the Lehigh Line, then north over the Reading Blue Mountain & Northern and on to Binghamton, New York, via Canadian Pacific. This move has not been confirmed by Norfolk Southern, however other railroad sources indicate that it should take place before the end of the year.
As of right now, Norfolk Southern does not appear to be interested in ridding the Binghamton to Buffalo, New York segment of the Tier, however Canadian Pacific has apparently approached NS on more than one occasion about purchasing the line.
With the financial state of Norfolk Southern, line sales are a way of generating quick profit and improving the 'bottom line'. A complete Southern Tier line sale would actually create undo competition by allowing another railroad into the Metropolitan New York area. By selling the line piecemeal or only segments, the continuity is breached and provides better opportunity for Norfolk Southern.
As late as Friday of last week, Canadian Pacific officials were meeting with Harrisburg Division personnel to discuss options for the Southern Tier. Rumors of BNSF involvement have been just that, rumors. BNSF people have been frequenting the railroad to establish more interline marketing agreements and more intermodal service across the slightly faster Penn Route.
Canadian Pacific would have no plans of tearing up the railroad and traffic levels would likely be higher under their ownership than the current levels. Between Binghamton and Buffalo, Canadian Pacific fields more trains than that of Norfolk Southern on a given day, making them a likely candidate for purchasing, if such a deal were to play out.
When more information becomes available about line sales and the fate of the Southern Tier, we will provide full coverage.
So they will run diesel trains to Binghamton? That from Hoboken? One hell of a long ride. The line is also very curvy,so they will run very slow. If they do run it will be only two or four trains a day.
Maybe on holidays they could run extra trains to the SUNY up there. Thus taking some load off of greyhound.
What you suggest could lead to significant changes. Thank you!
Isn t that the route of the old Erie that went to Buffalo and Chicago?
Yes sir-e Bob.
There are only four trains a day on weekends now. Two North/Two South and it takes a long time to get up to Port Jervis now.
This,hopefully, will be changing soon...The train in the morning is okay...but that 6:2something being the ONLY train back in the evening really really SUCKS...I bet if they put in a 5something train, and a 8something train coming bac, their Sat/Sun business would BOOM! As it now stands, on weekends I actually end up taking the [ugh!] BUS in....
Told Ya! Actually the local media was just at Tuxedo yesterday covering the announcement of a new parking lot there, when a An MTA official happened to slip that they will increasing service early next year to 24[!!!] trains a day,believe it or not..[uh..thats twelve trains in each direction....still...].Now as far as Binghamton is concerned, one of the local pipe dreams is to have to have NY State [and probably New Jersey...] sponsor, and Amtrak operate a thru train Hoboken-Buffalo, using the old Erie Limited route as much as possible [Possible/Probable stops: Suffern..Port....Downsville..Binghamton....Elmira/Corning..you get the idea...]..like I said a pipe dream of some advocacy groups...
OR they could even route it from Binghamton up thru Syracuse...THEN west..ah...dreams...
How about NY Penn-Scranton-Binghamton for Amtrak as NJT's ALPs can change voltage on the fly(see MidTOWN DIRECT) and it is rumored that the wire will be extended to Port Morris possibly for Amtrak to change locos from HHP-AEM7 to P42 or to add more service to Lake Hopatcong.
That might seem overextending on Metro-North's part. I mean, Binghamton is decidedly upstate, and in no way part of the metro New York, MTA service area.
Maybe it's time the state considered creating a passenger express train service statewide. Wouldn't it be cool if there were direct express service from Hicksville to Binghamton and beyond! Well, it's a nice dream.
:)Andrew
Remember this is NJ Transit that operates the line for Metro North. Would NJT go further into NY State just because MNRR buys the line??
Wouldn't they (NJT) demand much more money from MNRR to run the service??
Well, if we just eliminated one or two of the subway lines in New York, we'd have plenty of money for all kinds of trains running all over the state.
Seriously, the only way ANY of this make sense is if the state actually does put a couple of rail tracks on a new Tappan Zee, then curve it down onto the Hudson Line somehow (tunnel?). In that case, MN could electrify part of the line and/or run dual modes (if they stop burning) to Grand Central. The logical use is park-n-ride, since housing is too spread out in Rockland/Orange for a walk-to-train. New highway exits, parking lots and stations could be built where rail and major road cross.
Such tracks could be used for freight as well if the bridge were strong enough, cutting the time required to go through Selkirk. Cheaper than the cross-harbor tunnel.
Well, the Middletown station IS close to the NY17[soon to be I86..]-NY211 interchange..and Harriman is pretty close to to the Thruway-17 interchange.....All the other stations are pretty much out in the boonies..in fact, in the local papers Classified section, they print a real estate map,with all the MN stations marked.....And, yes,something HAS to be done regarding the MN-NJT mess....It is all to clear that NJT don't give a squat about the MN service..lately they've been exiling all the Port trains wayyyyy out to Track 17 at Hoboken...as if they are trying to give MN a hint....
And here I thought it was to make it more convenient to the ferry riders.
It is all to clear that NJT don't give a squat about the MN service..lately they've been exiling all the Port trains wayyyyy out to Track 17 at Hoboken...as if they are trying to give MN a hint.
And here I thought it was to make it more convenient to the ferry riders.
I recall a RR bridge at either Kingston or Pougkipsie, Is either to far north for use?
avid
It's at Pougkipsie and it is a big national engineering landmark. If they placed it in service traffic could be routed off the Southern Tier Line (around Maybrook I think) and into NYC via the Harlem or Hudson lines. No matter what MN does there will still room for plenty of freight on the Tier and rehabbing the bridge could encourage NS to put some through freights back on the line.
I just knew I could depend on a savvy dude like yourself to come through.
Is the bridge single or double track? I bet the view would be great looking up or down the Hudson river. Perhaps a field trip,photo shoot?
About 17 years ago, some local developer wanted to turn the rr bridge at Poughkeepsie into a grandiose retail & residential development. Obviously, it went nowhere, but it was a pretty cool idea.
Anyone have any pix of the Poughkeepsie bridge? In former years and present.
Please advise where to locate.
avid
Well, a Google search came up with a few hits.
Try these two sites for starters:
http://www.walkway.org/ (seems to have just one picture)
http://www.marist.edu/summerscholars/95/pok-hrrb.htm (several pictures, historic and present day)
The Poughkeepsie bridge has been out of service since a fire on 8 May 1974. The bridge could have been rehabilitated at that point in time but Penn Central didn't have the money. The right of way on the Highland side of the bridge (west side) is largely gone, and it's disappearing quickly on the Poughkeepsie side now as well. 26+ years of no maintenance (following 20 or more years of minimal maintenance) have taken its toll. Double stacks would have significant problems on the right of way even if it was intact. But it's a magnificent structure.
Here are two postcard views:
Early Postcard
Later Postcard
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Well NYC proper isn't a big intermodal terminal. The bridge could be useful for moving NY City bound freight into the city without resorting to the Cross Harbour. They could bring it down the Harlem Line and then onto that connetion I keep hearing about to OAK interlocking (SS3) on the New York Connecting Railroad and then via the NYCRR to Long Island and Booklyn.
But you'd have to recreate about 35 miles of ROW that simply isn't there any more - not very practical at this point. It's a shame it wasn't preserved.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I thought the route was RoW was still intact as like a path or trail or scar accross the landscape. Has it been built over?
Much of it, yes, especially on the Highland side. Road construction projects have removed much of it on the Poughkeepsie side, especially about five miles east where it crosses NY 55.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Almost brings tears to yer eyes, what a wasted asset!
Great post cards!
avid
Glad you enjoyed the cards. One of these days I'll scan some more from my collection (I have a dozen or so) and put them out there.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
KYW news radio reported at 4:02 this afternoon in a regular "traffic and transit on the 2's" segment that trolley service was suspended on routes 101 (Media) and 102 (Sharon Hill) because of a derailment at Drexel Hill Junction. Nothing further was said at the time, and I found nothing on SEPTA's or KYW's website.
Railpace reports that NJT posted to their "Hot News" that buses are no longer substituting for trolleys after 8:20 PM Monday through Thursday on the Newark City Subway. However, they are still substituting after 8:20 PM Friday and all day Sat and Sun.
As sort of a post-World Series story, this was on his little syndicated radio commentary this morning -- Olberman said his Fox Sports colleague, Ron Darling, told him he would ride the No. 7 train to Shea all the time, but in order to keep from getting noticed he would make sure he boraded at the front door of the first car, and if there were more than just a few people in the car, he would then go to the front window and look out of it all the way to Shea in order to keep his face hidden as much as possible so no one would bother him.
Keith needs to ask Ron what stragtegy he would advise any future Mets player to use once the R-62s with the full-width cabs start arriving on the Flushing Line.
Could someone explain the pros and cons, if any, behind the Transportation Bond Act? How will affect the commuters and passengers of NYC?
Train#1886Mike
According to the Straphanger's Campaign, it would greatly benefit us. According to the AAA, it would cause problems. It is supposed to provide for lots of much-needed transit projects, but the AAA seems to worry that other agencies may raid it. What do you guys think? Should we vote for it?
- Lyle Goldman
Yes vote for it. We could finally resume construction on a full length 2nd ave. subway. But the only con would be that the MTA debt would grow by 3.8 billion dollars.
There are some problems with it. The exact wording of the act has the money to go to the MTA Capital Plan not actual projects within the plan. Yes the Capital Plan contains money for the 2nd Ave Subway and the East Side connector but what happens if the MTA decides to take the bond money and use it on some projects and not others??
Also remember the state is borrowing MONEY once more. This means when you ride in those brand new R143 cars (they are in the 5 year plan) you won't pay them off for over 20 years. You will still be paying for those cars even when they are long gone from service because of age.
I'm thinking on voting NO and not leaving more debt to my children.
This sounds awfully famillure to a certain problem that happend oh so many years ago,and I bellieve it involved the same same subway line. IF the MTA realy wanted to build the 2 ND Avenue line,it could have been built oover 40 years ago while the cost was around 500 million with connnections and extentions.As of today,the cost is more like 5 Billion for a full length route WITHOUT the extentions. WE HAVE PAID FOR THIS SO-CALLED NEW LINE 3 TIMES ALREADy!!!!!!
The Transportation Bond Act is an integral part of the MTA 5-year Capital Plan. Without it the Capital Plan hasto be shredded, and millions of dollars more more wasted to redo it.
I urge all of you to vote for the Transportation Infrastructure Bond Act. Here's why:
1. City riders currently subsidize suburban riders heavily. The Bond Act will help rectify that by allowing MTA to convert $1 billion in fare-backed bonds with the same amount in general obligation bonds, thus spreading the cost around the state (and making sure everyone who benefits pays a fair share
2. The phrase "I don't want to burden my grandchildren with debt" is not reasoned well. First, we have a first-class subway system because our grandparents allowed MTA to borrow money (which we are paying back). The MTA may not have built all the new lines we were promised, but it did rebuild the system and improve its operation a great deal. The Bond Act will allow MTA to borrow money to build New York City's first subway line which welcomes the elderly and the handicapped with elevators and ramps for its entire length, and which will take advantage of the 63rd Street line's bellmouth tunnels to provide uptown and downtown service on 2nd Avenue to passengers arriving from Queens and Roosevelt Island. Building the new subway will prevent the collapse of the "Lex" from crushloads and help maintain the functionality of Metro-North.
Since our grandkids will enjoy these benefits, it is very fair for them to help pay for it. The Return on Investment is outstanding. If we don't do this, they will curse previous generations for not doing something they needed
3. Yes, the Second Av subway could have been built in the 1970's for $500 million. But rather than cry over spilled milk, we can avoid repeating the mistakes our predecessors made, and make sure our grandkids don't have to spend 2X as much building the subway. LET'S GET ON WITH IT!
4. Studies by the Port Authority have proven that new transit lines increase property values and business activity, generate increased tax receipts, and help lower crime. Jamaica Center was an area that was a net tax consumer 15 years ago (drug dealers, empty lots, crime) and now boasts three agency headquarters, a new institute at York College, groundbreaking on a new shopping and entertainment/cinema complex, a $1 million flower market, and a new hotel planned to meet the coming of AirTrain in 2003. Roosevelt Island experienced a housing boom following the opening of the 63rd Street Extension. The increased tax collections offset borrowing, so the burden of the Bond Act will be reduced because we will better able to pay for it.
5. The subway makes New York the most energy-efficient city in the world. If we want to fight air pollution, reduce our dependence on foreign oil, and fight global warming, we need to expand the subway.
6. The Bond Act is very specific about which projects are funded. The MTA will not be able to divert the money to other uses. We must learn from the past, but let's not be paralyzed by it.
The Second Av subway and LIRR improvements are CRITICAL NECESSITIES, not luxuries. We need them now. We may not be 100% satisfied with the means available to pay for them, but in a democracy, some compromise is inevitable.
R. Aryel MD, MBA
Thank you very, very much. I hope we ALL will vote Yes.
- Lyle Goldman
(1. City riders currently subsidize suburban riders heavily. The Bond Act will help rectify that by allowing MTA to convert $1 billion in fare-backed bonds with the same amount in general obligation bonds, thus spreading the cost around the state (and making sure
everyone who benefits pays a fair share )
Currently, the State must jump through hoops to force City riders to subsidize suburban riders, because legally the NYCT and commuter rail financing is separate. But the current MTA plan will mix monies. In theory, this will allow the City to drain the suburbs. In practice? Don't believe me, check out the New York City Partnership website.
(2. The phrase "I don't want to burden my grandchildren with debt" is not reasoned well. First, we have a first-class subway system because our grandparents allowed MTA to borrow money (which we are paying back).
The decision as to what to invest in is different than the decision of how to finance it. Under the MTA plan, WE ARE REFINANCING BILLIONS IN DEBT (IE NOT PAYING IT OFF) FOR INVESTMENTS THAT HAVE ALREADY BEEN MADE! Let them pay off those debt and use THAT $10 billion for the Second Avenue Subway.
(3. LET'S GET ON WITH IT! )
All we get is another fucking study!
(4. Studies by the Port Authority have proven that new transit lines increase property values and business activity, generate increased tax receipts, and help lower crime.)
Studies do none of those things! They just increase the profits of well connected consultants!
(6. The Bond Act is very specific about which projects are funded. The MTA will not be able to divert the money to other uses. We must learn from the past, but let's not be paralyzed by it. )
That's too bad. I had hoped that some of the $700 million would go for construction, not studies. But let's be clear. The act assigns a certain amount to the MTA capital plan. It doesn't say for what. Cost over-runs for the LIRR to GCT will likely absorb any subway money. Read it yourself in the voting booth.
(R. Aryel MD)
The main reason we haven't invested in infrastructure over 30 years is because New York State and City spent so much more on health care than anywhere else -- 2.5 percent of all the income of City residents is collected in state and local taxes and spent on Medicaid alone, compared with the national average or 1.0 percent. See all those new hospital buildings from the 1980s and 1990s. There is the most recent reason we haven't built the Second Avenue Subway -- the political power of the non-profiteers.
Thoughtful remarks ... but,
[3. Yes, the Second Av subway could have been built ... LET'S GET ON WITH IT!]
Another STUDY isn't going to help. How many studys do they need. Seems more like they are paying off some consultant friends. Why don't then just start bulding parts that have already been studied to death (how about connecting the dotts ... the pieces already in place)
[6. The Bond Act is very specific about which projects are funded. The MTA will not be able to divert the money to other uses. We must learn from the past, but let's not be paralyzed by it.]
I'm coming more around to Larry's opinion, i.e. George won't give them the money then need to operate & do preventive maint., so they're going to borrow and once then get the money use it for what ever current need they have, i.e. no new construction, well maybe the LIRR connection to Grand Central will get finished.
You may recall that it was George that cut money out of the MTA budget in Albany, now the Farebox/Turnstile has to pay for more of the MTA costs. Maybe if the financial situation gets bad enough the people in NYC will wake up and bring George to task ! Maybe it's time to give the MTA back to the City. Let the mayor beg for cash from the suburbs if they want M-N & LIRR improvements, let the City folks finance improvements they want. George's problem is that he's still sucking his thumb because he didn't get to be Bush's running mate.
Mr t__:^)
...Seems more like they are paying off some consultant friends...
As a consultant, I assure you the Department of City Planning are not our friends :). The awful truth is that the City Environmental Quality Review process makes any construction project larger than a single, low to moderate height building virtually impossible to build, unless you're Donald Trump. Had the CEQR guidelines been in place during the planning stages of the Archer Avenue subway or 63rd Street tunnel, they would probably still be in review; Battery Park City would never have been approved because of its impact on marine life in the Hudson. The Whitehall Ferry Terminal is finally under construction, nine years after the DEIS was filed. We had a guest speaker from the MTA in one of my classes, in 1998 or 1999, who speculated that the review process for the Second Avenue subway would take a minimum of 18 years. I don't know if this was a widely accepted estimate, an educated guess, or a number he pulled out of the air, but I would tend to believe it, since the DEIS on the MTA website has to be reviewed by 162 agencies, companies, and individuals. As far as more studies go, all the "hard work" was done for the DEIS (Draft environmental impact statement). The FEIS (Final) will address comments on the DEIS by the aforementioned reviewing agencies and not contain much new information.
(As a consultant, I assure you the Department of City Planning are not our friends)
As a staff member of the Department of City Planning, I assure you that CEQR is not our friend either. It is an outrage that something that is ipso facto environmentally beneficial is tied up in red tape. If it were up to me, the redevelopment of previously developed land, and capital improvments in already-developed areas, would be exempt from CEQR. Let's limit environmental review to suburban sprawl. Better yet, let's repeal the damn thing. Never get it past the lawyers, consultants, and other members of the "process lobby," however.
Note that when they actually wanted to build something -- the added lanes on the LIE in Suffolk -- the state legislature specifically exempted that project from SEQR. Could have done it for transit as well, if they were serious.
[Note that when they actually wanted to build something -- the added lanes on the LIE in Suffolk -- the state legislature specifically exempted that project from SEQR. Could have done it for transit as
well, if they were serious.]
I guess the key here is do they WANT to build it ?
I don't understand the need for all these studies either, I mean it's going to be burried out of sight & result is less polution & a healther NYC (financial wise), so what's the problem ... no ground water source, no wild life, no disruption to neighaborhoods (after the thing is built), the device that will move folks doesn't polute ... I could go on.
Just seems like some kind of boon dogle, like all those barriers on the parkways ... the funnyest one was put up to protect the rail yard for all that auto noise ... give me a break !
Mr t__:^)
The environmental reviews have nothing to do with the environment, they're there to get NIMBYs and others another way of stopping projects.
Look at Westway. Do you seriously think that all of those people even gave a damn about fish? Except for the dead ones they order in the restaurant.
Larry: I didn't mean any offense by the "not our friends" comment; I'm sure you didn't write the manual :). It's funny, your views seem totally contrary to the mission of DCP. I hope you personally review a lot of EASes, so things can be built!
The "environment" implied in the title refers to the areas that would be affected by the project, not the global ecology. The problem with a study of this magnitude is that it will affect transportaion patterns citywide. The study area for the DEIS is almost all of Manhattan below 59th Street and everything east of Fifth Avenue above 59th Street. No one can argue that the subway line won't be beneficial, but it has to be objectively proven that the benefits will outweigh any negative impact on the study area, which is why they'll be breaking ground when I retire.
As for the HOV lanes being exempted, that's outside of New York City; I believe SEQR regulations aren't as stringent as CEQR (I could be wrong). HOVs are also an entirely different case, because the FHWA and EPA like them so much. Their existence may even result in the state getting more federal highway money. But don't get me started on HOV lanes... :)
(I didn't mean any offense by the "not our friends" comment; I'm sure you didn't write the manual :). It's funny, your views
seem totally contrary to the mission of DCP. I hope you personally review a lot of EASes, so things can be built!)
No, but I write (the socio-economics and land use chapters of) a few. Their main effect is to kill the trees. Just my share of the targeted EIS for the Unified Bulk Program was hundreds of pages.
SEQR and CEQR are invitations to litigation. At least if you have zoning in place, a builder can build pursuant to zoning without years of process followed by years of litigation. There is no equivalent for public works. If nothing else, the MTA should be able to pass a "plan" which, once approved, requires no further review process. Projects could just go ahead when funded. Actually having a plan wouldn't be such a bad thing.
As someone who does not have air conditioning in my house or my car (which I seldom drive) on environmental grounds, I can say as an environmentalist that he environmental review process -- and most people who claim to be environmentalists -- are disgusting.
(It's funny, your views seem totally contrary to the mission of DCP.)
Everyone at DCP knows the environmental review process is shit, but we can't change it because too many NIMBY nuts and litigators have a stake in the process. With a change of administration, however, those DCP staff who see nothing wrong (and a lot right) with environmental review processes that go on for a decade might be back in power. Think twice before voting for Mark Green.
Is it my imagiation or did the PA "JFK Express" project seem to get approved with construction underway in record time ?
I know someone who works for the PA who is involved with a lot of long range planning ... maybe they got their ducks in a row BEFORE they announced that they were going to do it ?
Mr t__:^)
(Is it my imagiation or did the PA "JFK Express" project seem to get approved with construction underway in record time ?)
The did an EIS, but didn't spend years on it. The people who tried to stop it were working class Blacks, not middle-income or affluent Whites. There are still some people you can roll over. Better lawyers could have held it up for years.
Note that when they actually wanted to build something -- the added lanes on the LIE in Suffolk -- the state legislature specifically exempted that project from SEQR. Could have done it for transit as well, if they were serious.
Those extra lanes were HOV's, and therefore, from an environmental standpoint, and as Martha Stewart would say, a good thing. Not that anybody actually uses them, of course.
(Note that when they actually wanted to build something -- the added lanes on the LIE in Suffolk -- the state legislature specifically exempted that project from SEQR. Could have done it for transit as well, if they were serious.)
(Those extra lanes were HOV's, and therefore, from an environmental standpoint, and as Martha Stewart would say, a good thing. Not that anybody actually uses them, of course.)
If they could exempt an environmental failure like an HOV lane from SEQR, they could exempt an environmental success like the Second Avenue Subway.
If the city or state realy wanted to build the new subway lin[s],every avaible resorce would have been used to acomblish that fact.BUT,the real problem was,AND STILL IS TO THIS DAY, when ever a project is started,for some reason the funding runs out Way before its completed most often due to mismanagement of funds[too many people dippin their hands in the pot,and sending their kids to schoolor takin long vacations]see the whole 63rd street tunnel and subway line fiosco and prove me wrong!
Actually, the 63rd Street tunnel is not a good example. While the original line was never completed as intended due to New York City's financial collapse in the 1970's, what was built was well-engineered, and, in particular, the East River tunnel segments were put in place on budget and on-schedule. After the MTA's recovery (helped by the capital plans and "nuisance taxes" like on the phone bills), the 63rd Street connector project was built without significant disruption to subway service (part of the reason for the six year schedule)and is now complete and physically ready for service.
It's really easy to be cynical about everything, I know, but I like to give credit where it's due, and MTA did salvage something useful from the original line. I hope we can build on that...
(It's really easy to be cynical about everything, I know, but I like to give credit where it's due, and MTA did salvage something
useful from the original line. I hope we can build on that...)
Then support tolls on the free East River Bridge, a higher fare (to cover increases in wages) and higher productivity (OPTO, etc.), the dedication of all taxes on fuel and sales taxes on motor vehicles to transportation improvements, the dedication of all motor vehicle fees and fines to transportation improvments, etc.
Support savage cuts in state and local spending on the health care industry, right DOWN to -- can I even say it? -- 50 percent ABOVE the national average. Support a crackdown on contractors to get a better deal, and an exemption from environmental review for all state and local-funded mass transit projects. Support immediate design-build cotracts for the portion of the Second Avenue line everyone agrees with -- from 63rd Street north. Have the MTA and TA in-house staff lay out the rest of the route.
Bond issue? Forget it.
Thurston's point is quite valid. The MTA does respond more to "crisis" mode than anything else. However, this is not a reason to vote against the bond act, which would provide the excuse to kill the rail projects in the plan. A better response is to pass the Act, and then be proactive in dealing with the legislature and the governor, to let them know we don't want the system to deteriorate.
This is an election, you know. Vote for candidates more likely to support transit, and let's make sure at least one person in the top troika is from NYC, to prevent or at least reduce anti-NYC and anti-MTA monkey business in future budgets.
Lou, I see your point, but we really need that 2nd avenue subway to get rid of the congestion on Lexington Ave. It's really starting to get on my nerves.
I have to vote NO. I can't approve money for yet another study of the Second Ave. Subway. It's been studied to death! They say money to start construction. They already have a few blocks worth of holes uptown! So we get a few more holes with approval! I can't vote for this since they will bring the LIRR into GCT. Not that I'm against that idea as Penn Station has only 21 tracks which has to be shared by LIRR, NJT & AMTRAK. But let's first build a complete Second Ave. subway to take some of the strain off the Lex since we need the room there when all those extra LIRR people get on the 4/5/6 at Grand Central. Then in the Daily News, Pataki's state guy who is pushing the act said that the #7 line will get new cars. Excuse me, the new cars are ordered, coming in, and the #7 will get hand me downs! Ad then he said cars in the future. They'll be ordered if the act is approved or not!
[...they will bring the LIRR into GCT. Not that I'm against that idea as Penn Station has only 21 tracks which has to be shared by LIRR, NJT & AMTRAK. ]
I still don't really understand why would anyone spend $20B to benefit so few people. Wouldn't it make more sense to expand Penn Station, create a stop at 33rd and Park Avenue and expand service to Atlantic Avenue for those going Downtown Manhattan.
Arti
(I still don't really understand why would anyone spend $20B to benefit so few people.)
It's actually $2 billion ($20 billion is one estimate of the alleged cost of the Second Avenue). In any event, it should be cheaper. And New York City should get improvments also. BUT that connection IS important to Long Island and Eastern Queens. It will have an enormously positive effect on the housing market and quality of life in those areas.
[It's actually $2 billion ]
They spent $300 m during the last capital program. Current one calls for $1.5 b. Completion 2020, 3 more capital programs probably in tune of $2b each. Maybe $10 b.
[BUT that connection IS important to Long Island and Eastern Queens. It will have an enormously positive effect on the housing market and quality of life in those areas. ]
How could it be? Those people already have Manhattan access. If they were to build a stop on the east side for subway transfer East side would be accessable aswell. They could increase the capacity with better management expansion of Penn Station, Atlantic Avenue (Lower Manhattan workers). Maybe through service by NJT to Sunnyside stopping at Park Avenue providing ESA to NJ commuters. Maybe even joint service between LIRR and NJT from all the way to LI to NJ making Penn Station just a stop.
Arti
Maybe even joint service between LIRR and NJT from all the way to LI to NJ making Penn Station just a stop.
A nice idea, but... how are you going to address the serious capacity problem with the Hudson River tunnels?
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
[A nice idea, but... how are you going to address the serious capacity problem with the Hudson River tunnels? ]
I'd say NJ trains going through to serve LI routes.
Arti
Voting no on the Transportation Bond act is a step backwards, and will make solutions to the Manny B, 2nd ave subway, LIRR to GCT slower or improbable.
And voting yes will do the exact same thing except that it will put us in more debt.
NO MORE B.S. STUDIES!!! VOTE NO,Pay as you go, Don't waste tax dollars, Real fiscal conservatives know that bond interest is money flushed down the toilet THIRTY YEARS INTO THE FUTURE END BONDING for better government and TAX CUTS, We can have quality government services AND tax cuts if we don't send our tax dollars down the interest toilet. We might even get the 2nd. Ave. subway!
Setting aside for a moment your feelings about fiscal conservatives (and true fiscal conservatives are just as likely to run deficits as ersatz conservatives, usually by ill-advised tax-cuts aimed at the wealthy) - and I'm not saying I prefer the Bond Act over "pay as you go" financing, let's consider the reality: The political process this year has offered us only the Bond Act to get the subway done. Joe Bruno, the Senate Majority Leader, and his allies made sure that road projects got equal funding with rail transit in the budget, and the Bond Act was a required concession to get the transportation budget passed. We can only work with what we have.
As to the new subway: Your frustration about "more BS planning" is quite understandable. I too feel that frustration. It's true that the MTA has maintained two stretches of tunnel under 2nd Av from the 1970's construction. To utilize them, however, MTA would have to revert to "cut and cover" construction methods, which would be incredibly disruptive to the East Side. "Cut and cover" is obsolete anyway, with the new boring and blasting technologies available. To get a new subway built while minimizing environmental impacts and using modern, cost-effective engineering (thirty years newer than what had been used), MTA is justified in going back to the drawing board.
This time, though, let's all of us hold the agency accountable and press them to stick the shovels in the ground and get going. Like any other agency, once that process is underway, and a buraecratic constituency is built, there will be plenty of brass at headquarters whose careers will be made by this project - so the momentum will be there to get it done.
To learn more, contact the office of the Manhattan Borough President (C. Virginia Fields). Her office is at the municipal building, One Centre Street, 19th Floor South, New York 10007. There is also a website up (check Yahoo or another search engine to get there).
There's a fine line between healthy skepticism, and paralytic cynicism. Too much of the latter, and all of us might as well turn out the lights and give up.
(and true fiscal conservatives are just as likely to run deficits as ersatz conservatives, usually by ill-advised tax-cuts aimed at the wealthy)
No way. True fiscal conservatives when I was young advocated never having a deficit. The liberals called for deficit spending to spend our way out of recessions and pay it back during the ensuing period of prosperity.
Interest payments on government debt are TAXES paid by our government to the wealthy and big business (Our class enemies) Pataki and the right wing Republicans(Not conservatives) would rather see your money go to these fatcats than see it go tothose who need it or a targeted tax cut for lower incomes. actually, state capital needs should be funded by the federal government, to be repaid interest free over time -- this is how corporate conglomerates do it, financing by the parent company, one of the main reasons they are so efficent and powerful. VOTE NO! NO! NO!
[Interest payments on government debt are TAXES paid by our government to the wealthy and big business ]
..or pension funds.
Arti
Because we have a progressive income tax system, tax cuts invariably affect the rich more than the poor. It is politically difficult to pass tax cuts affecting only the poor.
Interest payments are paid by all of us for services we receive or infrastructure built for us. "Fat cats" provide an essential service (and employ millions of people) in ensuring that the MTA and other govt. agencies have access to capital markets. In a country such as the US, private industry provides these services. Are some people overpaid to do this? Possibly. Is some money wasted? Undoubtedly.
The alternatives: Countries where massive projects are built regardless of whether people need them, and fat cats who are govt. employees.
Or: a tax cut returning ten dollars to a poor person, thousands to a rich person, and cancelling a project the poor person needs a lot more than the rich person...
I know which way I'm voting...
The alternatives: Countries where massive projects are built regardless of whether people need them, and fat cats who are govt. employees.
You've just described NYC. Instead of grandiose public-works projects, the city has massive levels of health care spending that are far beyond what are actually needed, functioning instead as patronage machines. And you do have fat cats who work for the government, more precisely for government-subsidized health care and "nonprofit" organizations.
There's a fine line between healthy skepticism, and paralytic cynicism. Too much of the latter, and all of us might as well turn out the lights and give up.
I've already given up.
(This time, though, let's all of us hold the agency accountable and press them to stick the shovels in the ground and get going.)
How the hell are you going to do that. They are BORROWING to STUDY the Second Avenue Subway in a BOOM. Where do you think they will get the money to build it in the next recession, when teachers are being laid off, taxes are being increased, and the fare is going up in any event?
The state ought to be running big surpluses now (and real ones, not just rolling over a suplus they had two years ago and calling it a new surplus every year) and building up money for roads and rail. We've been had. Lets at least say no so we are not complicit in our own destruction.
Larry,
Indeed, they are borrowing to study in a boom. But they have to, because we're not going to build anything on the plans written thirty years ago. New technology allowing the least disruption to the communities can be utilized.
I can appreciate your cynicism, but let's put this in perspective: the Bond Act won't bankrupt anyone. First, a billion of it is actually relieving 6 million daily NYC transit patrons of exclusive responsibility for one set of bonds, and spreading the cost to a wider audience, making it more affordable for everyone. Second, the remaining 2.8 billion is one item (albeit, politically, a crucial one) in a 34 billion dollar transportation plan.
Kill the Bond, and you definitely kill the subway. There is no serious dissent in any of NYC's boroughs that the 2nd Av subway is a long-overdue necessity. Even most big businesses a strongly for it. The Governor received nearly 18,000 cards and letters from NYC residents demanding that the subway be built.
Highway projects in the plan are receiving funds from a variety of sources, and have significant non-NYC support, so they are going to get done regardless of what happens to the Bond Act. But Joe Bruno (who basically controls the State Senate - you didn't think the Senate was a democracy, did you?) has clearly communicated that the rail projects depend on the Bond Act. This is why it is so important for all of us in the city to band together and remove any excuse to not build it.
The MTA is like any other bureaucracy. If you can get it to finish engineering and start building (and yes, all of us can do that), then among its bureaucrats and technocrats will be people whose career advancement will depend on getting the subway done(read: major project/empire building etc. etc.). We can take advantage of that.
If we reject the package handed us by the legislature (and they have not given us other options to choose from), then NYC's most critical projects won't get done, and we will be to blame for the resulting problems with commuting, its econpomic decline, and employer reluctanceto continue reinvesting here.
(Kill the Bond, and you definitely kill the subway.)
I do not agree with that. Neither do I agree that passing the bond ensures the subway. It would take a major change in political priorities to get significant transportation improvments built. With such a change, improvements are possible. Without such a change, improvements are not possible.
While I stand by my assertion, I strongly agree with Larry's assertion that the subway must be a political priority to get done. To become a political priority, all of us must demand action from our elected officials - and not give up until we get it.
(While I stand by my assertion, I strongly agree with Larry's assertion that the subway must be a political priority to get done.
To become a political priority, all of us must demand action from our elected officials - and not give up until we get it.)
You can do that without the bond. Note that in NJ, a bond issue is associated with law that will require all transportation taxes to go to roads and transit. New Jersey already spends more than us, proportionately, on these priorities. No such promise associated with this bond issue.
We are paying MTA taxes, that take the place of state transportation taxes, that are diverted to Democratic non-profit grants and Republican income tax cuts. We're screwed anyway. This is a $4.2 billion bond issue. But the MTA plans to issue $12 in bonds AT HIGHER INTEREST RATES to retire existing bonds from PAST CAPITAL PLANS, paying BIG FEES to do it. At least we can say no when we have the chance.
I do like what NJ is doing (and the tangible benefits that have been provided recently, like light rail).
Can we really accomplish that without a bond act? Theoretically yes - but remember that the Bond Act was a "take it or leave it" forced on us by upstate legislators, and a Republican Senate Majority Leader (can't get more anti-NYC than that). Your concerns about refinancing are valid, although I do not believe the financial impact will really reach the worst possible scenario.
It is my understanding that the language of the Bond Act is quite specific in allocating money for rail projects, and so a diversion of funds wouldbe quite difficult.
Since NYC alone cannot afford to build a major, full-length subway, how do we get Albany to go along? Your proposed solutions might be the best, but are they do-able? As a modification of an old expression goes, sometimes a good solution executed decisively today is better than the perfect solution next year (esp. if you can't get enough votes in the Senate or the Governor's signature for it).
(Since NYC alone cannot afford to build a major, full-length subway, how do we get Albany to go along? Your proposed
solutions might be the best, but are they do-able? As a modification of an old expression goes, sometimes a good solution
executed decisively today is better than the perfect solution next year (esp. if you can't get enough votes in the Senate or the
Governor's signature for it).)
How does everyone else do it? Look back at the archives, you'll see a "Shame -- Let's Make a List" thread, in which your webmaster alone listed a zillion new rail lines/extensions in the 1990s during which time NYC built -- nothing. As for the roads, New Yorks are among the worst in the U.S. They are making a big deal out of I-86. All that is is creating the few additional sections of grade-separated highway along a stretch of road hundreds of miles long -- on land NYS DOT has owned since the 1960s! You'd think they could just reduce the extent to which contractors get graft for a couple of years and build it with the excess!
Your disgust at the roads is appropriate - the roads are there because "if you want the subway, we get ---" - clearly a pork issue.
As to your other objections - I admit, I don't have great answers. If you and I ran the world, maybe things would be different. But the legislature and the Governor have implied that No Bond Act = No Political Mandate for Subway. I don't want to hand them that victory.
Don't we need a full-length Second Aveuue subway for the East Side? Don't we need new clean-air buses and new rail cars? Don't we need to rehabilitate subway stations already in use? Don't we need to shapen things up in this system to make it better for all of us? Vote yes for the bond act. Where else would we get the funding and reap the benefits later on? Besides, those "rustbirds" and RTS's from the 80s are getting on my nerves, falling apart like that.
Contact me for a brief talk.
Amen to that.
[To utilize them, however, MTA would have to revert to "cut and cover"
construction methods, which would be incredibly disruptive to the East Side. "Cut and cover" is obsolete anyway, with the new boring and blasting technologies available. To get a new subway built
while minimizing environmental impacts and using modern, cost-effective engineering (thirty years newer than what had been used), MTA is justified in going back to the drawing board.]
If they do that the tubes are going to be deep, i.e. elevators & esclators required at every station. Also we get lower in the water table (drip drip drip). AND aren't the new methods more expensive ?
Maybe the existing pieces don't amount to enough to be kept, but I'm sure there is going to be a loud outcry from the public when the MTA says the FIRST part of the job is to fill in the existing holes.
Just think in five years they fill in the holes, the economy turns & nothing happens for another 20 years ... sounds like we're going backwards ?
I would rather see cut & cover the uptown portion NOW before more studies downtown ... if it passes (without my vote) I'll write my state rep. to attach some strings to the check and require something visable ... how about "progress payments" the MTA starts some CONSTRUCTION and then they get some of the money ?
Mr t__:^)
As it was presented, the TA plans to use deep tunneling in the hard rock of the Upper East Side. It has to in order to build the interchange with the 63rd St line. Up in East Harlem, it plans to use cut and cover. No word on the southern extension of the line, as this was not in the MTA's original plans.
[If they do that the tubes are going to be deep, i.e. elevators & esclators required at every station. Also we get lower in the water table (drip drip drip). AND aren't the new methods more expensive ? ]
Tunnel boring is cheaper than cut and cover, especially in Manhattan (think of all the documented and undocumented utility lines) As for stations, they could build the stations using cut and cover and the inbetween using boring.
Arti
As for stations, they could build the stations using cut and cover and the inbetween using boring.
That's not exciting!
If Bush wins, it sure is a good thing we voted down that bond. We'd have borrowed $4.2 billion, built a bunch of roads Upstate, studied the Second Avenue Subway. Than George P would have told Hillary to get Trent Lott and George W to actually pay to build the thing. And that would have been that.
If Bush wins, it sure is a good thing we voted down that bond. We'd have borrowed $4.2 billion, built a bunch of roads Upstate, studied the Second Avenue Subway. Than George P would have told Hillary to get Trent Lott and George W to actually pay to build the thing. And that would have been that.
It's interesting to note that Upstate voters rejected the Act by a sizeable margin, even though they probably would have gotten some roads out of it. Most city voters, in contrast, supported the Act even though all but the most naive of them probably knew that they'd get nothing except a bunch of studies.
I've lived upstate in Central New York for five years. Other than in the city of Syracuse, I've found that Republicans outnumber Democrats around these parts by a fair margin. Not the right-wing type of Republicans, mind you, but frugal people nonetheless. There is also an undercurrent of distrust about downstate - the realization that NYC-area politicians run Albany, and that upstate is forgotten except at election time.
Both of these attitudes, I believe, played into the defeat of the Transportation Bond Act. The idea of NY State taking on a huge addition to its already staggering debt load goes directly against the frugal nature of many upstate voters. And political ads opposing the bond act played up the New York City theme big time - one group (I believe it was the Conservative Party) ran a series of TV ads showing grainy images of NYC subway trains with the tag line "What does a new Manhattan subway cost?" - clearly implying that the majority of the money would be spent on such downstate projects. By comparison, the ads run by bond act supporters were weak - the only specific projects mentioned in the Syracuse area TV and radio ads were for work on Route 281 and two bridges over the Seneca River, roads that nobody really cares about.
- Jim (RailBus)
NO MORE B.S. STUDIES!!! VOTE NO,Pay as you go, Don't waste tax dollars, Real fiscal conservatives know that bond interest is money flushed down the toilet THIRTY YEARS INTO THE FUTURE END BONDING for better government and TAX CUTS, We can have quality government services AND tax cuts if we don't send our tax dollars down the interest toilet. We might even get the 2nd. Ave. subway!
Ah, if it only were so simple. Your assessment of these bond fiascos is correct. But it sadly is not realistic to assume that there will be transportation improvements, the Second Avenue subway among them, if we can reduce interest payments. The city and state will just waste the money elsewhere, mainly on unnecessary health care spending and on raises for already overpaid (and frequently redundant) government workers.
I am convinced that the Second Avenue subway will become a reality only if one of two things happens:
1) The wealthy people on the Upper East Side, who of course will benefit mightily if the subway starts running, start using some of their political and economic muscle to demand that the subway be built. They've been strangely quiet so far. I don't know why; it could be the reluctance among some rich people, especially the "Old Money" rich as found on the UES, to throw their weight around.
2) NYC goes into municipal bankruptcy - hey, it nearly did 25 years ago - and a bankruptcy control panel takes over city finances. Such a panel can wield near-dictatorial powers, and if we're lucky it will be comprised of anti-New York and anti-urban Sunbelt types. They might then launch on what bascially will be a massacre of city spending, with huge program cuts and massive employee "re-engineering." New York would emerge as a city for hardworking people, not lazy schmucks and losers, and there'd be plenty of money, even after huge tax cuts, for transit improvements.
Needless to say, there's not much chance of either of these things happening.
Peter,
I'm afraid you and Mr. Blair have fallen a little short in your bond analysis. Interest on bonds is a necessity to provide the cash needed to build infrastructure in a timely and cost-effective manner.
There are many things you can do with bond money, some of it certainly wasteful. And incompetence in govt. is a constant factor (and, sadly, I've seen that first hand).
However, $30 billion, some of it in bond money, has restored the NYC transit system to a state of function good enough to see ridership surge in the last few years. Not everything was done exactly asintended or promised, but the restoration is an accomplishment beyond debate.
Just as you can't always buy a house without obtaining a mortgage, NYC can't build subways without doing some borrowing. And lest you suggest that your borrowing money to buy your own house doesn't affect your neighbor, please note that your loan, could, after all, have been given to somebody else. If you squander the money buying a lemon, should that bar you forever from borrowing money again? If that were true, Milton Hershey, Ray Kroc and countless other people would never have accomplished what they did.
Of course there have been embarassing failures in the past. But to refuse an opportunity, and then complain afterwards is worse - you really can't have it both ways.
Vote NO.
New York State (and City) spend less than most other places on transportation, and have more debt. The $4.2 billion in debt is just part of a plan to borrow $35 billion, most of which is off the books public authority debt, and most of which will go for five years worth of routine replacement and maintenance. The state has basically cut off funding for these purposes with tax dollars, and is borrowing instead. How long can that go on?
They have tried to link the Second Avenue subway to the bond act, but all we'd get out if it is more studies -- no construction at all. The Straphangers were outraged by this, as was the business community, but I guess they have decided to back the bond because they are sure the subways will be even worse off without it. The subways will be as bad as the politicians can get away with, bond act or no. I guarantee you, with all this debt already on the books in 2006 we won't be building the Second Avenue Subway. We will be cutting back on the maintenance of the existing system. There is nothing we can do about it, but at least we can veto part of the debt.
[The subways will be as bad as the politicians can get away with, bond
act or no. I guarantee you, with all this debt already on the books in 2006 we won't be building the Second Avenue Subway. We will be cutting back on the maintenance of the existing system. There is nothing we can do about it, but at least we can veto part of the debt.]
But how can we make Pataki and company more accountable to:
- What they are going to do with the money ?
- Why is the mind set that the State has little or no need to fund the MTA ?
There is talk, elsewhere on this board, about the impact of the NS abandoment of track & MTA purchase.
- Do we want the MTA to get any bigger ?
A bigger MTA should be a big item in the State budget because it's operation directly effects so much of the population, so why is this not true ?
It would seem the George P. & Tom G. are using the same play book, i.e. cut mass transit out of the budget because no one knows how to stop you from doing it & you get to balance your budget, so end up being a hero.
Mr t__:^)
(It would seem the George P. & Tom G. are using the same play book, i.e. cut mass transit out of the budget because no one knows how to stop you from doing it & you get to balance your budget, so end up being a hero.)
George P hasn't been doing so well by the roads, either. Highway spending is way down from what it was 10 years ago, adjusted for inflation. Commentors keep mentioning that the amount of money spent on roads is greater than the tolls and fuel taxes and fees on drivers. Not in New York -- the money is diverted to general spending. Debt is up. It's just one more way to sell out the future. New York, the fleece and flee state.
Last night in Rudy's call in show he was knocking the Transportation Bond Issue ... "the money in the bond for 2nd Ave sTubway is just for study & none of the money will be used for construction".
This is opposite to the "official" City position.
I may vote against it too.
Mr t__:^)
What is in it for Brooklyn?
Rebuild of Flatbush Ave LIRR?? That is for LonGilsngers. 2nd Ave? it is not coming anywhere Brooklyn. There is nothing in the bond act outside of new cars for Brooklyn.
(Last night in Rudy's call in show he was knocking the Transportation Bond Issue ... "the money in the bond for 2nd Ave sTubway is just for study & none of the money will be used for construction". This is opposite to the "official" City position. I may vote against it too.)
The politicians are getting nervous. Yes they want to borrow money and not build things to reward their friends, but with outrage growing, they don't want their fingerprints on the deed. Both of my state "representatives," in their taxpayer-funded propaganda, talked about "legitimate concerns" with the debt in the MTA capital plan and didn't endorse it, despite having voted for it.
They tried to pass a school construction bond, remember? Well, they've been building and repairing schools with tax dollars ever since it was voted down. Would more education spending have occurred if the bond had passed? I don't believe it. The borrowed money would have freed other money to be pissed away.
As ususal, thoughtful remarks which I can't find much that I disagree with. It's too bad, the system is good and could be made better & better if only the MTA pushed the politians ... oh that's right Virgal was hand picked by George.
Mr t__:^)
Why did so many people vote for Pataki in the first place? I mean, the first time, okay: we didn't know what we were getting into. But the second time? After four years, what did they expect? (And while we're on the subject, the exact same thing can be said about President Reagan, but I digress!). I hope that in the next gubernatorial election, we get the Democrat we deserve. In fact, if George W. Bush becomes President, I will seriously consider moving to Canada!
Just my two cents!
- Lyle Goldman
[In fact, if George W. Bush becomes President, I will seriously consider moving to Canada! ]
Do you have Canadian citizenship?
Arti
In fact, if George W. Bush becomes President, I will seriously consider moving to Canada!
I understand they're looking for people to move to Nunavut...
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
(Why did so many people vote for Pataki in the first place? I mean, the first time, okay: we didn't know what we were getting into. But the second time?)
When it comes to screwing the future, Pataki is a lot like Cuomo. People voted for Pataki the second time (and Cuomo the second and third time) because the economy was up. As for the future, most Archie Bunker voters in the fleece and flee state are planning to cash in and move out before it arrives. The losers are Upstaters, who really want to stay (with their kids) in their commununities, and the young people and immigrants who are moving into NYC. Due to social issues, these idiots always voted Republican or Democrat respectively, and so get screwed.
When it comes to screwing the future, Pataki is a lot like Cuomo. People voted for Pataki the second time (and Cuomo the second and third time) because the economy was up. As for the future, most Archie Bunker voters in the fleece and flee state are planning to cash in and move out before it arrives. The losers are Upstaters, who really want to stay (with their kids) in their commununities, and the young people and immigrants who are moving into NYC. Due to social issues, these idiots always voted Republican or Democrat respectively, and so get screwed.
At the risk of sounding like a broken record (an analogy that's rapidly becoming obsolete), I hasten to point out that the Upstaters and the young people/immigrants in NYC have no one but themselves to blame. Voting in obedient fashion for one party only is just plain brainless. It doesn't matter whether that party is the Democratic or Republican. If voters learned to split their votes, they'd find themselves being courted by both parties and would end up having their interests given attention rather than being ignored.
Here is one voter who trys to vote intelligently.
- I watched the Pres. debates, but NOT the yada, yada before & after
- I watched two of Hillery & Rick's debates
- I'll vote, as will my wife (we many times cancel out each other vote, but that's OK) and most of my kids do too.
Mr t__:^)
I have some true facts and figures about the act taken from the NYS Senate office and posted at nyrail.cjb.net.
Dan
Thanks for providing that hyperlink. NYrail is a pretty website (and informative!). I appreciate the extra Bond Act details..
The CTA is pulling out all the stops to provide transportation for a mid morning rally and concert at Daly Plaza, in downtown Chicago, Thursday, Nov. 2. With parking banned downtown, major terminals will add 3 extra trains to day-time base service with eight car trains in place, except on the Brown and Green. Headways will be decreased from 10 down to 7 1/2 minutes. Topping the day off is a ban on all flagmen!!
So Thursday seems to be the day to see just how fast a day time ride can be.
David Harrison
Interesting; I didn't know about the rally, but I did notice the Blue Line running eight-car trains around noon. The Green Line only had 4-car trains running, of course.
Additional Bombardier R-142s were delivered to East 180th St Yard from Linden Yard this evening, consisting of South Brooklyn Railway Locomotive N1-RD331(ex R-14)-South Brooklyn Railway Locomotive N2-6335-34-33-32-31-NYCT Locomotive OL903.
That's all for now, but more should be on the way!
-Stef
How many cars have actually been delivered by Bombardier and Kawasaki?
When will the be running again ?
Thanks !!
Kawasaki - 7211-7270 = 60 Cars
Bombardier - 6301-6335 = 35 Cars
For a total of 95 Cars.
When will they come back into service? Who knows? As soon as they're finished making any modifications to the cars, they'll bring them back.
-Stef
What about that 7209 and 7210?
Jrf wanted to know when the 142/142A was coming back to service, and here it is:
The R-142 Train, 6311-20, in Yankee Pinstripes is in service on the 2 and is once again carrying passengers.
As a side note for Jrf, 7209 and 7210 are still in Yonkers, and perhaps It's That Flexible Metro knows if they're coming out of the plant anytime soon.
-STEF
An additional note: 7261-70 were sporting 6 train signage and were heading for some unknown location this evening (going south). I wonder if they were going to Westchester Yard?
-Stef
Yes. I actually got a ride on it yesterday and today. It runs on the same schedule just as 6301-6310 did.
Yup. As cars become available, they'll be phased into service.
-Stef
Yes. I actually got a ride on it yesterday and today. It runs on the same schedule just as 6301-6310 did.
Thanks, Stef.
I hope SubBus (Mike) read this post.
I'll certainly keep a sharp eye on any movements on the Bay Ridge Line near Linden Shops in the coming weeks.
BMTman
I am reading this post. I will keep a lookout myself over the upcoming weeks to see if anything will occur. I might drive over to Linden Yard to see if there anything going on over there.........
Train#1890Mike
I have to revise my statement and say that RD328 (R-14) was on the transfer from Linden Yard and not RD331 as originally stated. N1 and N2 went south this evening without OL903. If I knew of when they were coming, I could check them out at Oak Point Yard.
-Stef
Stef, SubBus: unfortunately, my contacts at NY&A can't give really good notice on when R-142 deliveries will occur. As it turns out those guys will get very short notice themselves (sometimes same-day) from MTA of when the cars will be coming down from Yonkers.
This whole affair will end up being a hit-and-miss situation. I would assume that the deliveries occur at Linden mid-day or in the evenings, as I've never seen any related movements while on my rush hour commutes.
BMTman
Aye. It would be unlikely to have any kind of movement during the rush as they're ready to come out of Linden Yard after the madness has subsided. I suspect that 6336-40 are not too far behind.
-Stef
I am reading this post. I will keep a lookout myself over the upcoming weeks to see if anything will occur. I might drive over to Linden Yard to see if there anything going on over there.........
Train#1890Mike
I have to revise my statement and say that RD328 (R-14) was on the transfer from Linden Yard and not RD331 as originally stated. N1 and N2 went south this evening without OL903. If I knew of when they were coming, I could check them out at Oak Point Yard.
-Stef
Stef, SubBus: unfortunately, my contacts at NY&A can't give really good notice on when R-142 deliveries will occur. As it turns out those guys will get very short notice themselves (sometimes same-day) from MTA of when the cars will be coming down from Yonkers.
This whole affair will end up being a hit-and-miss situation. I would assume that the deliveries occur at Linden mid-day or in the evenings, as I've never seen any related movements while on my rush hour commutes.
BMTman
Aye. It would be unlikely to have any kind of movement during the rush as they're ready to come out of Linden Yard after the madness has subsided. I suspect that 6336-40 are not too far behind.
-Stef
post #164887 has 2 links from post #164796
That's true. I wonder how that came about?
-Stef
Double-clicking the Post Message button will sometimes do that. Our UnKosher friend gave a demonstration a few thousand messages ago when the subject came up then.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
After the settlement of the strike, the LAMTA closed the fair boxes for five days and provided free rides. I usually drive into Los Angeles whenever I am going to the city, but on Friday, October 20th, I decided to try leaving the auto behind and commuting on public transit. I quickly found out that commuting and railfanning are two different things.
This was not a real rush hour commute because I was going to a 3:30 P.M. appointment and had to stop at the Federal Building to pick up documents before going to the appointment. I figured I would have plenty of time if I arrived at the Federal Building by 1:30 P.M.
I cheated a little by driving about two miles to the Norwalk Green Line Terminal Park ‘n Ride. I arrived there at noon figuring that one and a half hours was plenty of time to travel the approximately 18 miles to the Federal Building.
I have a heart condition which precludes long walks and arthritic knees which make climbing and descending stairs difficult but not impossible, but I have never bothered to get a handicapped card for my automobile. Therefore the first problem was finding a parking space close to the terminal. I spent five minutes driving around the lot until I found a space reasonably close to the East end of the platform. I walked to the elevator to descend to the platform. There are two elevators at this station located at the extreme ends of the station. They are actually beyond the ends of the platforms with railings between the tracks and the platforms for about fifty feet. The Green Line LRV does not stop at the center of the platform either. It consists of one 87' articulated car, and it stops at the West end of the platform. The platform is at least 300' feet long. I came out of the elevator and saw a car sitting in the station. While walking the length of the station, I saw the T/O arrive, open the doors, go into the cab, and when I was still about ten feet in front of the car, pull out of the station.
The headway on the Green Line at that time of day is 15 minutes. This wait gave me plenty of time to catch my breath and take the next car for the 11 minute trip to the Blue Line. At the exchange station (Rosa Parks) there were three elevators from the platform leading to the West Plaza, Center Plaza and East Plaza respectively. No signs indicated which to take to get to the Blue Line. I could see that the Blue Line tracks crossed under the East end of the station, so I correctly guessed that the elevator to the East Plaza was the one to take. On the elevator I had a choice of Mezzanine or Street Level. I chose Street Level because I knew the Blue Line ran at grade level in that area. This was a wrong choice. I found myself on the street outside of the station watching my Blue Line train pull in to the station. By the time I went back up to the mezzanine, crossed over to another elevator and descended to the Blue Line platform, I had missed the train and had a 12 minute wait for the next one.
It is a 25 minute trip on the Blue Line to downtown. I had to stand for the first two stations, then found a seat for the rest of the trip. At the downtown end of the Blue Line, I had to transfer to the Red Line. The Red Line runs underneath the Blue Line, and there were stairways leading down to it, but no operating escalators. I saw a sign pointing to an elevator at the end of the blue line platform and asked a man in wheelchair who was headed that way if the elevator went to the Red Line. He said it did, so I went to it with him and discovered that it only went up to a mezzanine level. At the mezzanine level I found another elevator which had a sign which said it was to the Red Line, but it went to the opposite platform of the Blue Line. I finally found an elevator to the Red Line from that platform (no arrows or signs) and as I got to the platform, a train was pulling out. The trains were on a 7 minute headway, so I waited that long for the next one.
It was a three minute ride to my destination station (Civic Center) at 1st and Hill streets, where I had to walk one block to 1st and Broadway to catch a bus. When I got to the Civic Center station, I found that the up escalator at the South end of the platform was not working. To go to the North end of the station to find an escalator or elevator would have added two blocks of walking, so I decided to make the one flight climb ( BTW, About 40% of the escalators I saw were OOS, possibly because they had been idle for such a long time during the strike). The stairs took me to a mezzanine and a long (est.40') escalator (and stairway) to the street. I noted that there was no elevator or down escalator at this entrance, so I could not return this way.
When I walked the one block to catch my bus, sure enough as I started across the intersection to the bus stop, the bus I wanted pulled out from the curb from behind another bus and pulled up to the crosswalk in the traffic lane. The driver would not allow a passenger to board in the middle of the street, so I had to wait for the next bus. The schedule headway was 6 minutes, but I waited 10 minutes for the next bus.
I finally reached the Federal Building about 2:15 P.M. If I had driven it would have been a 30-40 minute trip. Admittedly, the MTA trip planner calls for taking one express bus instead of the Green and Blue Lines to reach downtown, and it is possible that the express bus crosses the last bus line I took to my final destination, so maybe the trip could have been made with a two-seat bus ride rather than three trains and one bus. But I am a rail fan, not a bus fan, so I opted for rail travel.
After battling the bureaucracy I got the documents I needed and left the Federal Building at 3:20 P.M. My brief case now weighed about 25 pounds and I sure wished I had a car trunk handy to unload it into. As I crossed the street to catch my bus, it had just turned the corner and pulled into the stop. Needless to say, I missed it. Fortunately the next bus arrived about six minutes later, and I arrived at my 3:30 meeting only eight minutes late.
Because I was running so late I did not have time to stop for any lunch, and by the time I got to the meeting I was feeling hypoglycemic. Fortunately a colleague at the meeting was able to give me a couple of pieces of hard candy which brought my sugar level up.
The meeting was over at 5:00 P.M. and I got a ride back to the 1st & Hill subway station. But this was the entrance with no elevator or down escalator, so I opted to walk the 3/4 block to the other entrance. There is a 20' rise in that 3/4 block, so by the time I was half way there, I was feeling some angina and my knees were killing me. I stopped to rest at a bus stop half way to the subway entrance, and noted that one of the buses that stopped there ran on Melrose Avenue. I decided to take the bus to Melrose and La Brea to get a meal at Pink's Hot Dog Stand (The Hot Dog Stand of the stars, and Los Angeles' answer to Nathans), with the thought that I would catch a bus from there to Hollywood and the Red Line in Hollywood.
Within five minutes the bus came along. It was a 40' NABI low floor. Although I had to stand at first, by the time the bus reached Temple Street and Glendale Boulevard I was able to get a seat. With the heavy traffic, it took 40 minutes to reach La Brea, but by the time we got there, only two other passengers remained on the bus. This has to say something about who rides public transportation in Los Angeles. The bus still had a mile or two to run down an avenue with small apartment buildings on the intersecting streets in the heart of the evening rush hour and the fare was FREE, and yet the bus was empty.
After a dinner of a couple of foot long hot dogs with mustard, onion, sauerkraut and chili, plus a Dr. Brown's Creme Soda, my stomach felt a lot better, but my knees had stiffened up and were killing me. At about 6:45 P.M. I started to the intersection to cross to get a Northbound bus to Hollywood, when a Southbound bus came along. Its South terminal is at a Green Line station, so I jumped on. I rode for a couple of blocks in bumper to bumper traffic, and began to think it was a major mistake not to visit the rest room at Pink's, because it looked like it would be a couple of hours on the bus considering the speed of the traffic.
A few minutes later as we approached Wilshire Boulevard, I decided to transfer to the Rapid Bus to the Wilshire & Western station of the Red Line. The Rapid Bus is an express bus with stops about a mile apart and a transponder that keeps a green traffic light green for up to an additional ten seconds as it approaches an intersection. Although I had to stand, the three mile trip was quick.
At Wilshire and Western I descended to the Red Line platform. The station was deserted so I walked to the middle of the platform and took a seat to wait for the train. The trains here had a twelve minute headway, so I should have stayed on the bus for one more mile to Wilshire and Vermont where the trains from North Hollywood also stopped (reducing the headway to 6 minutes). This was a terminal station, and when the two car train arrived, it pulled into the station only far enough for the second car to be in the station. Since the platform is long enough for a ten car train, I had a three car length walk from the middle of the station just to get to the train.
A seven minute ride brought me to the Blue Line station in downtown L.A. This time I quickly found an elevator which took me to the right platform, but just as I reached the platform the door lights on a waiting train went out and it pulled out of the station. Again a twelve minute wait for the next train. It was now about 7:50 P.M. and there were seats for everyone. I did notice on the 22 minute ride to the Green Line station, that because of the bright lights inside the train, and either tinted glass and/or poorly lighted station signs (none flourescent, only indirect lighting) it was often difficult to tell what station the train was stopping at. I dozed for a moment and almost missed my station. I was not sure if I was at the proper station or the one before my station when we pulled in. I could not see anything through the windows but got up and went to the door and recognized by the number of buses outside the station that this was the correct one and got off.
I went up to the Green Line Station which is just above road level in the center of a freeway. It was chilly, the noise level was annoying, and it was so crowded that there were no platform seats available. The Green Line ran with a 20 minute head way (at 8:30 on a Friday evening), and I had a 15 minute wait on the platform. When the single car train arrived, I found a seat and dozed on the 10 minute ride to the Norwalk Park ‘n Ride. Once there I limped down the length of the platform schlepping my 25 pound briefcase to take the elevator to my car which was now all alone in the lot.
When I got home I was completely exhausted. I am still a railfan, and will continue riding on weekends from time to time, but it was clear to me after this day's adventure why so few commuters in the L.A. area who have automobiles are willing to give them up to commute to work. There will have to be a great improvement in the service to convince me to voluntarily commute again on the train, even if the ride is free.
Tom
That bus line on Melrose Avenue (#10) is always empty going towards West Hollywood after Western Avenue. The #10 in the reverse direction however has plenty of passengers. I believe that most of the people coming back home from Downtown LA take either the Santa Monica Blvd. bus(#4/304) or the Beverly Blvd. bus(#14) as they run more often than the #10.
Found a strange card laying on a card reader that I don't recall hearing about. It depicts the face of a young light-skinned black girl and has something to do with 'wiping out cancer'.
Anyone know of this card?
Joe C
I've never seen that, but if anyone has an image of it I'd like to see it. At work I'm making some high school science lessons on cancer and a picture like that could be nifty to include.
Try calling the # (1-877-NYC-PROJ). I'll bet they would love a little publicity, especially if the kids are going to bring it home.
BTW, I've seen posters, maybe they'll give you a pair.
Mr t__:^)
Joe, Assume it's the "New York Cancer Project" series or two:
- African-Am Baby, and Chinese Baby
I got one of the latter last week. The Subway-Buff said they first came out 10/16.
Just got a set of the four football cards, as nice as the Mets series.
Mr t__:^)
Hey Thurston,
Thnx for the info. There are TWO cards to look for then. Will keep watch. BTW, I found three different football cards on the same reader as the cancer card; quite a lucky spot! I shall return. One card was somewhat bent, though.
Joe C
I posted this. It is the African-American Baby (also a Chinese Baby version- in chinese) for the NY Cancer Project . DO a search for messages posted by me and you can see the stations issuing each version of this card.
Did! All the way back to early October. No can find. Perhaps you titled it differently?
Joe C
Joe, the title is "New Promotional MetroCard" (I printed off a copy).
Mr t__:^)
VOLUME II OF TWELVE HISTORICAL NEW YORK CITY STREET AND TRANSIT MAPS 1847 TO 1839 IS NOW AVAILABLE. IF YOU WISH TO ORDER YOUR COPY VISIT:
HandMProductionsbooks.com
ANY RELATED QUESTIONS MAY BE SENT TO ME VIA THIS POSTING.
For those of us who prepaid for it at the Fall Trolley Extravaganza a few months ago, when should we expect shipment?
--Mark
When will it be in bookstores??? (I have a gift certificate at B & N I have been saving for just such a purchase)
I saw an ad on the subway a few days ago for the NYC2012 campaign to bring the Olympics to New York; it shows commuters sitting in an R-33WF, and one man holding himself up by the handgrips. Upon closer inspection, the interior of the car is blue, not beige, and IND-style "COURT" tiles are visible through the window, which means... it must be 9306! Just thought I'd pass it along.
The R16 was in some commercial recently. The inside was the same. I can't recall what is was about.
I also posted something on this last month.
Here's the link to that.
Thank you.
I picked up a couple from what appears to be the new batch, i.e. exires 1/31/02. I don't see any difference from the orig. graphics.
Mr t__:^)
It looks as if they will be no trolley lines running on the island of Manhattan since the cross town line on 42 street was canned. My question is are there any laws that prohibit the use of overhead wiring in Manhattan or at least on certain streets? I seem to recall that some or all parts of Fifth Ave. has that restriction. Also, does anyone know of the trolley line that is being proposed in the Village? I know the group has a web site, but I can't recall what it is.
YES! since the blizzard of 1888 , when a ton of electric, telegraph and telephone wires where brought down. Utilities were forced underground, by LAW.
avid
In New York County - Manhattan.
avid
When tour guides at BERA tell the tale of TARS 220 (Third Ave Rail System) how it went from a Cable car to an electric powered car where the third rail ran in the old cable conduit under ground because overhead was banned in New York County.
I've always asked then why does it have trolley poles on it, and have been told it did end up in the Bronx where overhead was allowed....So I beleive overhead is banned in Manhattan (NY County).
YUP!
avid
So all the streetcars in Manhattan were powered by under-car center 3rd rail conduit, post blizzard? Can anyone give a quick overview of the main streetcar (after all, with no pole and overhead power lines, they weren't really trolleys, were they?) lines in Manhattan at their peak, or recommend a good book? There's a vast store of subway lit, but very little on streetcars that I know of. After I post this, I will check out this sites bibliography...
The "Bible" is "Third Avenue Railway System, 1953-1953, Roster of Equipment", by Vincent F. Seyfried, printed in 1953. It is 95% roster, but a very precious 5% history.
Some of us used to call the vehicles "streetcars" (a term used indiscriminately in New York City and others called them "trolleys". My own first experience of finding a trolley car without poles on its roof is a memorable trauma! Many ended up on the Bronx lines with trolley poles in their last years of service.
Unfortunately, there still is little comprehensively written on the extensive Third Avenue Railway System but you should access the NY Division E.R.A. bulletins which, I am told, have histories of every route/line. There still is no "Third Avenue Railway" book of grand proportions, and my belief now is that there never will be. Alas! Meanwhile, find yourself a Seyfried.
There is also a book about New York Railways, the other Manhattan streetcar company. Their lines lasted until 1936, whereas TARS ended streetcar service in Manhattan in 1949.
Was the Green Line under New York Railways? Steinway too?
I just got a copy of the Green Lines book. The Green Line was New York Railways. It came out of the Metropolitan Street Railway bankruptcy. It was owned and operated by the IRT.
The Green Line has the dubious "honor" of being the first electric railway to be destroyed by National City Lines and Mr. La Guardia.
And come ride TARS #629, she's back from Vienna (was there in the late 40s as part of the Marshall Plan). She's a true "street" car, i.e. mfg. in-house by TARS in 1939 for the streets of Manhattan. She has a foot pedal so you could creep down the streets in heavy traffic.
#220 is now over 100, being mfg. as a cable car in 1892. She's been restored to realy fine shape (as she was when she worked the street of the Bronx).
Mr t__:^)
629 had a slightly different TARS paint scheme in 1980 than the one it has now. I got a kick out of seeing the "Auf" and "Zu" German signs inside it back then.
Next time take a close look at the glass, wasn't made in USA.
Mr t__:^)
Ahhhhh. Thanks for the tip. I will be sure to do so next time I'm at Shoreline.
Did anyone ever get fried by the power in the street? I could just imagine a rainstorm, a clogged drain (litter or ice), the slot filling up -- with water on the third rail spilling into the street. JOLT.
These days, someone sticking their hand down into the slot (or, rather, their survivors) could win a nice lawsuit.
Interesting question. There is nothing in my library that reports such incidents. The slot had a third and "fourth" (continuous electrical ground) rail in it, so in the unlikely event of it flooding (the conduits were very well drained) the system would short on itself first, knocking out the section breaker. The only conduit "spectaculars" of record were plow fires, which were rare, but spectacular for a short while. There was a movie of one such fire in Washington D.C. shown at E.R.A. in the 1950's, back in the era of my first membership in that organization. I cannot remember whose movie it was, but it was a color film.
"These days, someone sticking their hand down into the slot (or, rather, their survivors) could win a nice lawsuit."
Fat chance!!
1. The slot was only 1 1/8th inch wide, the law required that the slot be sightly narrower than the calk on a horse shoe.
2. The contact rails were 18 - 22 inches below the slot rails.
Assuming that some idiot has a hand thinner than 1 1/8th inch, the idiot would have to reach over a foot and a half plus, just to touch the rails.
Virtually impossible for someone to get electrocuted. Besides
the narrow slot and depth of the electrical conductor rails, as
Dan mentioned, the entire system was floating. Even if a small
length of pipe or other metal object were to fall into the slot and
make contact with one of the conductors, there would be no path
to ground if someone were to touch it. Of course, that's theory.
In practice, grounds did develop on the system, but I've never
heard of any reported incident in either NY or DC>
Right!
All of Manhattan was placed under restriction against overhead
wires in 1890. However, exceptions were granted. There were a
few trolley lines from the Bronx that operated for a few blocks
in Upper Manhattan under the wire. I've also seen telephone wires
on poles in a few neighborhoods up there. The proposed 42 St
light rail line as well as the lower east side light rail line
both were drawn up with overhead catenary, so presumably the
planners were not concerned about this 1890 law.
Does anyone have pictures of the world series R62s? (1415)
No pictures, but I had a front row spot for the parade, and the R62 looked good up on the float. It was the last float in the parade, and they even had the doors open and various Yankee dignataries were packed inside of it....just like on a hot summer evening uptown! -Nick
There was a photo on this site, check back thru the old posts.
Mr t__:^)
IIRC the bridge was single track, andsuffered from arson during the PCbankruptcy era. It had been downgraded by the geniuses in Phila because with New Haven captive, a competing (Maybrook is correct) route was undesireable.
Clearly some new routings are necessary around NYC, as well as (sigh) more service for the extreme commuters.
Selling Southern Tier, however, strikes me as short term stupidity. When the Eriewas built itwas set up for wider guage and cars==fully capable of high and wide double stacks.
In the Conrail Era the Southern Tier was the only double-stack route into new York City. HOWEVER, about 8 years ago Conrail got a truck load of money from Pennsylvania to complete a clearance project on the Pittsburg and Harrisburg lines to enable them to accept double stack trains. Because the Pittsburg line is a much faster route than the Southern Tier, NS has just pulled the last remaining stack trains off the Tier and transfered them to the "Penn" route. Don't forget that Conrail sold most of the Lehigh Line to the Reading and Northern so NS is not the first Class 1 to try to divest its self of that region.
Hadn't thought of that. Thank you, Jersey Mike!
The bridge actually had guantlet track and normal double track on either side of the span.
At one time, yes, but that was long gone by the time I was growing up in its shadow in the '50s and '60s. The line across the bridge, and for miles on either side, was simple single track.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Wow, lots of stuff off ERN this past week. And Now...
NEW P42-9DC IDENTITY UNVEILED THIS MORNING...
Continuing its modernization of the nation's passenger rail system, Amtrak today took delivery of the first of 85 new diesel locomotive engines built by General Electric (GE) Transportation Systems.
In a ceremony at Amtrak's Chicago Maintenance Facility, GE Transportation Systems President John Krenicki turned over the keys to a brand new P42-9DC locomotive to George Warrington, Amtrak President and Chief Executive Officer. The new locomotive is also the first to feature Amtrak's new corporate brand identity, replacing the "inverted arrow" which had represented the company for 29 years.
Amtrak will be receiving 84 more units from General Electric over the next 12 months in an order worth approximately $200 million.
"This acquisition means Amtrak's passengers will enjoy reliable, high-quality service backed up by our one-of-a-kind guest satisfaction guarantee," said Wisconsin Governor Tommy Thompson, Chairman of the Amtrak Board of Directors. "The new locomotives are the first of our long-distance equipment to feature Amtrak's new look-a look that represents the new Amtrak-vibrant, forward thinking and poised for enormous commercial success."
"These new locomotives incorporate the latest innovations in technology and fuel-efficiency," said Krenicki. "The continuing revival of passenger rail in this country depends on reliable locomotive power and we are pleased to provide it. Amtrak's guests will enjoy the comfort of these machines for a long, long time."
Amtrak's new locomotives feature contemporary styling and advanced technology systems. Each locomotive is powered by a 16-cylinder engine equipped with electronic fuel injection for greater fuel economy. The units also feature cab signaling, segmented fuel tanks and automatic parking brakes for improved passenger and crew safety..
The new locomotives feature a new logo whose shape, convergent lines, and suggestion of movement capture the excitement of the travel experience. Additionally, Amtrak's new, sturdy Word Mark reflects the company's growing strength and reliability. Combined, they represent a revitalized corporation that puts the safety, comfort, and enjoyment of every guest first, and backs it up with a one-of-a-kind commitment to guest satisfaction.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
/*Amtrak's new locomotives feature contemporary styling and advanced technology systems. Each locomotive is powered by a 16-cylinder engine equipped with electronic fuel injection for greater fuel economy. The units also feature cab signaling, segmented fuel tanks and automatic parking brakes for improved passenger and crew safety..*/
DC traction? (as the GE designation sugessts..) Cab Signalling? EFI?
This isn't advanced stuff, it's acient technology.
And frankly, I think GE passenger locomotives suck. They're slow, unreliable, and louder than my bike. Only redeeming value is an excellent body design, and their lighter weight (I believe a P-32 weighs only a bit more than an AEM-7)
If you want advanced locomotives, go to Europe. that's where the technology is.
A P42 weighs about 25 tonnes more than an AEM-7. I'm not sure about the P32, but remember it only has 1/2 the power.
If you want advanced locomotives, go to Europe. that's where the technology is.
More like cheap expensive junk. Advanced technology doen not imply high quality or even good.
I agree w/ you about the GE's. I'd love to see EMD get out of the 3000 hp rut. The F-59's look very nice and I would love to see some F-70PHIAC or F-80PHIAC locomotives.
The History Channel is showing "Modern Marvels" tonight(Thursday) at 9 pm EST/PST and 8 pm CST.
Tonight's episode features the history of the London Underground from it's opening to present. I saw it last year(it's a repeat), it is very entertaining. You've gotta see it.
Thanks for the heads up, watching it now.
Well I was wrong, it wasn't a repeat. But it was a fascinating program!
If you missed it, it repeats on The History Channel at 1 am eastern late Thursday night(get those VCR's ready)!
I saw it too ... very well laid out program with lots of shots of various cars.
Did you know London had the World's first subway (tube/underground), but it was steam powered ?
NYC was #3, so who was #2 ... hint 1: it's in the USA, hint 2: I've operated one of their Type 5s.
Mr t__:^)
Boston...too easy
Peace,
ANDEE
Didn't Paris have a subway before New York?
You're right they did have it before NY. July 19,1900.
Peace,
ANDEE
And I think Budapest had one before NY, too, right?
--Mark
Yep, the first line of the Budapest subway opened in 1896.
Michalovic
Budapest was the first metro EVER built - 1887 i think,...
Not correct. Budapest was the first metro on mainland Europe. First line opened 1896.
Arti
EL WRONGO!
London in 1863.
Yes, London's first Underground trains were hauled by steam locomotives. The smoke in the tunnels had to be positively stifling!
I believe that even today, those original stations still have the huge vents used to vent out the smoke from the trains.
Correct, there are several sections which are open to above also. The locos were able to condense the steam and smoke to some degree. If you look aound the London skyline and see all the chimneys that at one time spewed out acrid coal smoke, the new Underground may have been a clean alternarive to surface transport.
Simon
Swindon UK
Not to mention the frequent fogs London was famous for. When I was there in 1978, out tour guide explained that after the Clean Air Act of 1956 was passed, the air became significantly cleaner to the point where fogs are less common now than they used to be. The biggest surprise I got was seeing Tower Bridge clean! Most photos from that era depict the towers as being black and grimy from years of exposure to soot and other pollutants. I did a double take when I saw it - whoa! Were the towers sandblasted?
The clean air act was a long tome coming. Thousand died in the smogs in the fifties and early sixties. I can remember going to school with a handkerchief over my face and arriving with it jet black. The government of the day did not want a declining coal industry even though it cost lives.
The History Channel are showing a programme about it here next Sunday but I shall miss it. Why you amy ask ? Cos I will be in NEW YORK CITY
enjoyong Subway Tour No 7.
Tower bridge was cleaned up in the early 1980's if I remeber correctly with low presure water over a long period of time. This saves the surface of the stone.
Simon
Swindon UK
I heard they literally hosed down some of the older buildings to clean them off. At any rate, Tower Bridge must have been cleaned during the mid-70s, as it was clean when I saw it in 1978. My father was in the UK in the fall of 1971, and he says Tower Bridge still looked grimy then.
I think the impetus for the Clean Air Act came after the famous 1952 fog which lasted four days. You could cut the air with a knife. Over in the US, Pittsburgh used to be really bad. It was described as "hell with the lid open."
So what does that make NYC ... 5th, behind London, Budapest, Paris, and Boston ? I'll have to correct my speal cheat sheet.
Next you guys are going to tell me it wasn't the Romans that are responsible for Standard Guage (the distance between their Chariot wheels) ?
Mr t__:^)
So what does that make NYC ... 5th, behind London, Budapest, Paris, and Boston ?
You forgot Glasgow - 1896.
It was cable hauled (with a high speed cable) and opened in 1897. The system opearated with cable until 1935. The line was 6.6 miles in length and used a single jawed side grip.
There are a few other underground railways in Europe that were constructed before the 1900's. Around 1871?, Istanbul inaugurated it's Tunel funicular, running under Galata Hill with an underground station at each end. Liverpool opened it's Mersey Railway tunnel in 1886, which linked Birkenhead to central Liverpool. It is more of an underground suburban ry. In 1895, Athens-Pireaus suburban ry extended to Ormonia Square as an underground line in 1895. It was electrified in 1904 webpage www.isap.gr.index.html Finally, in 1898, the Vienna Stadtbahn was opened, using steam engines to haul coached elevated and underground. It was electrified in the early 1920's and now uses LRT cars. An excellent sight about European metros with a link to a web page about Vienna Stadtbahn history is www.metropla.net
It is under the links section in the Vienna city metroguide.
This will be far too confusing for me & Shoreline customers ;-)
Guess I'll just change it to "electric underground" with Athens being first, Boston second, & NYC third ????????
London will be a footnote, i.e. STEAM underground in 1863.
This is similar to our discussion about Mr. Sprague, who our main public bldg. is named after, i.e. he didn't invent elect. trolleys, but did come up with the 1st practical way to power them.
Mr t
He also invented multiple unit control. The man was quite an innovator.
City and South London Railway (Stockwell to King William Street, now part of the Northern Line) opened for business with electric locomotives in 1890. [First line with multiple unit carriages was the Waterloo & City Line, in 1898.]
Watching that show I thought it was interesting that there was so much American involvement in making the London Underground what it is today. I also thought it was interesting that the transit operator was so involved in the development of suburban London, which was really different from the U.S. where suburbia was auto-driven and detremental to public transit. It's strange that we're now starting to build "transit-oriented developments" thinking it's a brand new idea when London was doing it fifty years ago.
Michalovic
I have not seen the programme, but what developments were you refering to, or was it just general. Much of North West London was built around the Metropolitan Railway.
Simon
Swindon UK
The program wasn't very specific. They never said which developments were transit-driven, only that this took place in the postwar years.
Michalovic
Could somebdy tell me what was the car epuipments assign to the "K" line back between 1985-1988?
The 8th Ave. "K" was operated mostly with slant R40's and some R42's.
I have some vague recollections of riding the K train to the Museum of Natural History with my parents when I was about 4-5, but I don't recall the slant cars. I remember the flat-front versions (R-40M and/or R-42). I can't remember if they were the old interiors or the rebuilt ones. I even remember a Redbird (R-27/30), both on the K and on the C after the C took over. I remember the takeover - K signs were still up all over, but the K train was missing from the new map. My father thought it was a misprint! That was until we found out after waiting for a K that never showed, my father asked a transit cop, and found out that there was no more K - we had to take the C.
The first slant-front R-40 I saw was on the B, circa same as above. We were on the F train pulling into Stillwell Ave and I saw the slant-40 B train a couple tracks away and I was transfixed.
All throughout the CI visit, I bugged my father with "Can we please take the B train, I want to ride the B train!" I was expecting an exotic experience, but I was very disappointed to find out that the Wierd Train looked like any other subway car on the inside.
With 100% certainty, the slant R40's ran on the AA and the K after the changeover. At the time, slant R40's were the main equipment operated on the A and AA/K lines.
You also had a few R-40M's and $2's on the line since the train ran with both cars from 207th ST and Coney Island when the occassional B train was split up....IIRC, the line had 1 or 2 R-27/30's running prior to the C train taking over.
I have never seen a slant R40 on the K line, but I never rode it before 9/85, so they may have run there before that date. But never after. It was almost always R42's on this line.
I have recollections of seeing at least one train of R-32's on the (K) line. Anybody else?
Bob Sklar
Almost exclusively R42, when it became the K from the AA in 4/85 to it's demise on 12/11/88. I did see one set of R38's (pre GOH with AC units and the old 1969 colored side signs set to KK 6th Ave local in 1987!), as well as a few sets of green R10's for a few weeks on 10/87.
I believe the only cars not to run on the AA/K were the R-44's...They just threw any car on that line back then.
where were the 32s and 44s running at the time?
During the 'K's official existence from 1983(?)-88, you would find:
-R32s were largely on the 'G', 'N' and 'R' both before and after the great N/R switch of May '87. They also put in cameos on the 'B', 'D', 'L' and 'M'.
Interestingly, during that time, the 32s that ran out of Jamaica had their interiors redone so that the walls were beige and the inside doors were bright blue, a similar shade to what the outside doors originally were. If a 32 was just pulling in Queensbound at 5th Avenue or Lexington Avenue, you could immediately differentiate between an 'N' which was still covered in graffiti and had the orange inside doors, and an 'R', which was ungraffitied and had the blue doors. By summer 1987, all 32s were redone in this way. In summer 1988, the first overhauled 32s were on the 'R'.
The last R-32 I saw that was not given the 1988 overhaul was on the 'N' in May 1990.
The Mod 40s and 42s had a similar interior paint scheme during that time.
The 44s were almost exclusively on the 'A' during the eighties, still with the original 'bullseye' letter sign at the end, the long route strip map, the feeble door chime and the black-on-white car number plates. They pretty much left the Queens division after 1977 and the 'D' after 1980.
During that time, the R-32s also went back to displaying destination signs up front, reversing a trend which began with the opening of the Chrystie St. connection. I had a gut feeling all along that front destination signs would make a comeback on the R-32s, and was thrilled to see that they had. Bringing back the blue doors was a sight to behold as well; all of a sudden it was 1965 and 1967 all over again. Well almost - the side destination signs were backlit in white instead of green. Close enough.
From 1985-1987, you could always tell the N from the R easily: the N cars had no grafitti and the R cars were the dregs of the system (grafitti splattered montage of R16/R27/R30/R32/R40/R42's). When the switch was made in late May 1987, the N still had some grafitti-coverd R32's before the R68's were fully delivered. Must've sucked to ride the Astoria line, seeing all the clean cars running on the "other" line.
A similiar split developed on the 2 D services, with the Broadway section getting new R68's and the Bronx/6th Ave. version gettng the awful R42's, pre GOH.
[A similiar split developed on the 2 D services, with the Broadway section getting new R68's and the Bronx/6th Ave. version gettng the awful R42's, pre GOH.]
Let's not forget the non functioning A/C on those pre-GOH R-42's on the Bronx (D). Rolling saunas !
Bill "Newkirk"
Non functioning AC? That was the least of your problems. Nearly every 10 car trainset of those cars had at least 1 "dark" car. And at least one broken door in every car.
But those puppies really rocketed up CPW, and the ride in a dark car was quite a rush.
Dammit! I really missed out on a lot by being born in 1983 and allowing all the good stuff to pass me by!:
Those R-10's that everybody seems to love
Dark cars
Fast, loud rides
"Blinking" lights
The original sensual look of the R-40/42's.
Loud and windy fans with warm and humid currents instead of quiet and spoiling air conditioning.
The overall gritty, masculine condition of the subway.
Why, WHY, couldn't my parents have met 10 years earlier? WHY????
BTW - I don't use air conditioning in my room (my parents use it in the rest of the house, but not me - fans and open windows only). AC is bad for the environment, anyway!
(Well, okay, if the heat index is like 110, maybe I'll close my windows and open my door to let the AC from the other rooms seep in - and that's a big maybe!) I'm a "fresh air" type of person.
You know, sometimes I wonder why my folks waited ten years before having me.:-) I'm too young to remember streetcars in Chicago, for instance. OTOH, I'm thankful to be old enough to remember the immortal R-10s on the A. Nothing will ever top a CPW express dash on those thundering speedsters, or as I like to affectionately call them, Thunderbirds and the Thundering Herd.
I never thought I'd say this, but I'm also thankful to be old enough to remember the BMT standards on the Canarsie. But I STILL missed out on the Triplexes!! Arrrrgh!!
I was just about to become 2 when Chrystie opened, and I've been trying to get may parents to remember if they ever took me on a
ASTORIA
CONEY ISLAND
QT | BROADWAY LOCAL
I missed all that, and that's one reason I would like to see them do away with the duplicat post-Chrystie letters when the bridge switches sides.
Anyway, I did get to ride the multi-car type & color IRT trains of the 70's, the first R-44's with the carpeting, and and saw the original interiors of the 32's & 42's (those 42 dark cars were cool when they were still blue inside and the AC was working).
The QT was one of the casualties of the Chrystie St. connector. Except for occasional reroutes, there has not been a Broadway-Brighton service via tunnel since then. I'm trying to remember if I ever rode on one. I do remember seeing them. The only possibility would have been in July of 1965, from 34th St. to Whitehall St. We were going from the Empire State Building to the Battery to catch the ferry to Liberty Island and would have taken whatever came first, a QT or an RR.
P. S. The R-27/30s originally kept the old BMT titles on their route signs in conjunction with the new route names. In your case, the route sign would say: "QT Broadway-Brighton Local via Tunnel"
I had one of the original pamphlets when the first stage of that connector opened almost 33 years ago. My mother got it for me one day when she went into the city a month before the opening. It has since been lost. What really killed me was that she went to a yarn store in the Bronx on a D train, and said it really moved along CPW. She got to experience a CPW express dash before I did! On R-1/9s!! I was so jealous.:-)
>P. S. The R-27/30s originally kept the old BMT titles on their route signs in conjunction with the new route names. In your case, the route sign would say: "QT Broadway-Brighton Local via Tunnel"
I was thinking of an R-32 and forgot the line was mostly 27/30's. Oh well, there was also the old
57 STREET
BRIGHTON BEACH
Q | BROADWAY EXP
Well, that's going to be the service pattern for the Q express when the south side bridge tracks reopen, so that combination will see a revival.
Now, if you change the route sign to N-Broadway Exp and leave the 57th St. sign in green, that's exactly what I saw on that very first N train I ever rode on all those years ago. "Coney Island" backlit in green was even better.
And speaking of the R-27/30s, they got new front end route curtains when the Chrystie St. connector opened, but kept their original side route curtains for the most part. Next time you watch The Warriors, pay attention to the route sign in the prom couple sequence when the train is running underground. It's set to "QB-Local via Bridge". The movie came out in 1979.
I do remember those, and that they were slightly different. (like the "via" on the outside was diagonal)
Posted
Wednesday, November 15
8:40 PM
Yes, the "via" in the via bridge/via tunnel part on the outside of the route signs was diagonal. On the inside, it was vertical.
>>>But those puppies really rocketed up CPW, and the ride in a dark car was quite a rush. <<<
Yes, did that many times. It was the one saving grace of those
pre-GOH 42s from hell.
Peace,
ANDEE
You also had that same split on the "B" with the Southern Div. getting the anti-graffiti R32, R40s and rebuilt R30s, R30As and R40s; while the Washington Heights "B" as well as the "K" received those awlful Sauna on rail R42s.
where did the r30s run from 1979-1993?
From 1979 until, 1980, you basically found them in the "AA", "B", "D", "J", "LL", "M", "QB", "RR", "SS" (Franklin Ave. Shuttle), and occasionally on the "N".
After 1981, they were removed from the "AA", "B", and "D". Although you would still find them running on those lines very, very sporadically.
There was virtually no change from 1981 until 1987 when some of the R27s started appearing on the "C". The R27s also saw service on the "A" train for a short while during the overhauling of the R38s. Also, all R27s, R30s and R30As were removed from service on the "R" train after the May 1987 switch of the "N" and "R" northern terminals.
The bulk of the R27s remained on the "C" until they were retired from service in 1989. They were replaced on the "C" by the unrebuilt R30s (8412-8549?) (which began showing up on the "C" in the Fall of 1988) in 1989. During the spring and summer of 1989, rebuilt R30s (8250-8349) began appearing on the "C".
As of Fall of 1989, all R27s were retired from revenue service, all R30s (rebuilt and unrebuilt) were on the "C" and the rebuilt R30As (8350-8411) were on the "J", "L", "M", "Z" as well as the Southern Division "B" trains.
During December 1990, the unrebuilt R30s were removed from the "C" train and retired from revenue service. The R30A's were transfered from the "L" and "M" trains (they stopped operating on the "J" and "Z" circa Spring of 1990) replaced the unrebuilt R30s that were operating on the "C" train. This transfer also marked an end of an era of R27/30/30A's operating on the BMT, where they have been operating since they first went into service in 1960.
The rebuilt R30/R30A's remained in service exclusively on the "C" train until Summer of 1993 when they were retired from revenue service and replaced by R32s.
There are some mistakes with this timetable. All unrebuilt R27 and R30's disappeared in the summer of 1988. What was left were the redbirds, which I'm assuming you mean as "rebuilt". They disappeared from the J and M lines shortly after the Archer Ave. opening. They first appeared on the C in mid 1989, as the R10's were scrapped, not before. No unrebuilt R27's/R30's ever ran on the C in the 1980's. I can attest to that personally. The last R30A cars disappeared in the spring of 1993, running on the C.
No, I meant "UNREBUILT R30s" ran on the "C" train. They started appearing on the "C" train shortly before it became a full service route which was Fall 1988. Although they were painted red, they were not rebuilt. The number series for this set of cars were (8412-8569?).
And, yes, indeed, R27s (8100-8249; for some reason, 8020-8099 never saw service on the "C") were definately on the "C" train, from 1987 until the January of 1989. I can personally attest to this fact because I rode this train many times on the "C" as well as the "A" train and believe me they were some of the slowest, filthiest, and during the summer, hottest things I have ever rode. Considering that the "A" and the "C" ran right by my window (when the "C" used to go to Rockaway Park), I was well aware of what type of car ran on these lines.
I remember riding on R-27/30 D trains in 1980. For some strange reason, some of them sported DD signs up front. Wonder if they had old R-1/9 curtains that weren't cranked far enough.
For the life of me, I can not remember any R27's or 30's running on the A line as late as 1987 or 1988. I just remember having the time of my life in June 1986, when I boarded a shuttle to Beach 116, and it was an R-10 train. Does anyone know when the R-10 was officially retired? Was 1986 its last summer?
No the R10's (greenbird green)retired in late 1989 not in the summer of 1986.
No the R10's (greenbird green)retired in late 1989 not in the summer of 1986.
Because they never did. All R27-30 cars were assigned to CI or ENY after the Manhattan bridge closure of 4/86. They never, EVER ran on the C, except for an occasional fluke which could always be possible during the time the entire fleet was undergoing it's GOH. The first "redbird" R27/30 appeared on the C in spring 1989, when the R10's were slowly sent to the slaughterhouse.
I do remember a fluke R27/30 D train in the summer of 1987 running on the 34th St-Bronx portion for a couple of weeks.
once late at night I saw a R30 A train
I must have missed that one. I never saw any R-27/30s on the A, although I do remember seeing them on the AA in the late 60s, decked out in the red paint job some of them got before silver and blue took over.
this was in 91 or 92 or 93
That would have been the C. I am referring to the red (not Fox Red) paint job which many olive drab LAHT cars got in the late 60s. We were at 14th St. one Saturday morning and had just gotten off a southbound A train. I looked over to the northbound platform and saw an AA train of red R-27/30s. It was unusual to see those cars there, as by that time base AA service was provided by R-32s. I still associate the R-27/30s with the BMT, particularly the RR followed by the old JJ and QJ routes. I also remember seeing pre-Chrystie St. QB trains of those cars along Broadway on Saturdays in 1967 (the QB was a late night and weekend operation before Chrystie St), not to mention T trains of R-32s.
nope... it was on the A, at 59th st uptown
And Red
You do realize you replying to a post 3 years ago. :)
Because they never did. All R27-30 cars were assigned to CI or ENY after the Manhattan bridge closure of 4/86. They never, EVER ran on the C, except for an occasional fluke which could always be possible during the time the entire fleet was undergoing it's GOH. The first "redbird" R27/30 appeared on the C in spring 1989, when the R10's were slowly sent to the slaughterhouse.
I do remember a fluke R27/30 D train in the summer of 1987 running on the 34th St-Bronx portion for a couple of weeks.
Whether you believe it or not, the R27s did run on the "C" from 1987 until they were retired from service. I have a gut feeling that you were not a regular rider of the "C" train during this time, because if you were, you would have noticed that about half of the service was provided by the R27s.
Oh yes I was. I was a regular rider of "every" line in those days. Absolutley no R27's ran on the C line in 1987, or 1988. None. Nada. Zippo. The C line was completely R10, with the occasional R38.
Can't say which year, but R27 GE cars (8136-8249) did run on the C (or was it CC?) and assigned to Pitkin Yard for awhile full of graffiti. One morning I had a 1/2 trip special from Rock Park to Bedford Park, then laid up to CCYD. The train I operated was indeed a GE R27.
Thank you very much for your input. It is really appreciated. I was beginning to think that I was the only one who knew this.
This is quite possible. However, it must've been a fluke assignment, always possible during the time cars were GOH'ed.
This might also have been during the Willy-B closure or 4/88-6/88, when A and C service was increased to compensate. I do recall a graffitied R27/R30 C train running during this time, and it disappeared when the bridge reopened.
The GE R27's (8136-8249) weren't there long at all. They were the first group of R27/30's to be scrapped. ENY yard dunped them on Pitkin! That group of cars were horrid as for dead motors. They were replaced by the Westinghouse R30's (8412 to 8569). A (and I mean a) few Westinghouse R27's (8020-8135) came over to spell the end of graffiti. In turn, these were replaced by the beloved GE R30 Redbirds (8250-8411).
Back then, I couldn't tell the difference between an R27 or R30, nor did I know these cars had 2 designations. I can only go by what I saw riding the rails as a teenager. Outside that one fluke train in 1988, I never saw these cars. Considering the time I spent on the Rockaway/Fulton St line as a railfan, it's impossible for me to have missed them.
Me too. They were virtually the same, just for contract numbers, GE vs. Westinghouse electrical equipment, one type of conductor door opening panel on the R27 and a different one on the R30, and I'm sure other minor differences between the two contracts. Of course, the #2 ends, eventhough they had no motorman controls, had regular couplers, so if one car would be out of service for heavy work, another car would be mated, hence all the mixed marriages, with one car possibly being an R27 with the other an R30. The 4 groups of cars were ultimately put back together, albeit not with their natural mates in most cases, toward the end of their lives. Trivia: when the Westinghouse R30's (8412-8569) were transfered to the C line, there was one car missing (8512 or 8513 which was destroyed in the Metropolitan Ave. fire in 1976). A Westinghouse R27 was graffiti free and mated to a Westinghouse R30. I believe the combo was 8052-8515 but I'm not sure, but there was one pair for sure.
I was only a kid, but if I remember correctly, the R-27 interior always had industrial gray doors, while the R-30 doors were a flourescent orangeish color.
I remember the summer of 1986, when I would see my friend Martin, who worked the M that year, and I just remember grey doors, westinghouse handle = 27, flourescent doors, GE handle = 30.
He left the line later that year when the R-16 came to the M line.
The man (Bill from Maspeth) just told you that the R27s operated on the "C". He even stated that he himself drove, not rode, but drove the R27 in regular "C" service. I stated that the "C" train, loaded with R27s ran right past my house, which means I get to observe this first hand, seven days a week.
What is it going to take for you to understand that just because you didn't observe R27s on the "C" train does not mean that they did not run in regular service on that line?
I really hope that your friend, Larry Redbird R33 has accurate car assignments from the times that I stated so you could see that the R27s did indeed run on the "C" train.
I'm willing to admit some ran there. However, they must've been for a short time and few in number. As a regular rider of A trains during that era, they couldn't have run in numbers, because I never saw them. I would have had they did. I'm not trying to sound arrogant. I'm simply stating facts.
I'd like to see some exact dates of these R27 assignments. I know none ran in 1987. 1988 is a possibility. Given that the C was rush hour only, it might've escaped my keen railfan eye.
I rode on one of those occasional R-38 C trains on the morning of Oct. 30, 1987. It marked the first time I had ever ridden on the R-38s, believe it or not. It was a pre-GOH train, with graffiti all over it.
Not to start an war here, but I can say you're incorrect. Aside from a possible fluke train, no R27's or R30's ran on the C until 1989, when the R10's were retired. The C was 95% R10 from late 1985 (when I first began riding the rails frequently) until spring 1989.
This time was the height of my teenage railfan years, and i zealously took heed to every line's car assignments.
[believe me they were some of the slowest, filthiest, and during the summer, hottest things I have ever rode. (R-27's)]
Sounds like to R-27's assigned to the (S) 6th Ave. shuttle, did those R-27's you described have all spotted wheels ?
Bill "Newkirk"
They sure sounded as though they did. Man, were they loud!
Yes they did. Only difference, the "C" never used R27s lower than 8100 (ie. 8079)
We need Larry Redbird R33 to settle this. He has access to the records of all car assignments. He can confirm that NO (i.e. none) R27's ran on the C until mid 1989. All R27's were assigned to CI or ENY during from May 1987 to mid 1989.
Of course, the occasional fluke R27 is possible. But they never ran in numbers, nore were they permamently assigned.
This period of time I was regularly doing what I called then "subway surfing", or riding the rails for sheer fun, much to the detriment of my grades (I cut school frequently), at least once a week, sometimes 3 times a week. I took notice of every line and the cars that ran on them. Since my favorite line of the time was the A, I saw plenty of C/H service. During this time, nothing but R10's and R38's ever ran on the C line.
I can prove my uncanny memory from this period by stating some of the more bizarre car assignments of 9/87-10/87, which had R68's on the F, R46's on the N to Astoria, red R30's on the R to Forest Hills and green R10's on the K.
Well, you might have been "surfing" once to sometimes 3 times a week, but you see, I was (and still am) gainfully employed. Due to me being employed, and living in the Rockaways, I had the fortune of riding the "A" and the "C" trains everyday, Monday thru Friday, twice a day, as well as on weekends. Also, by living in Rockaway, the "A" as well as rerouted "C" trains ran right by my window 24 hours a day, 7 days a week.
Now, if Larry Redbird R33 does have access to all car assignments, then it will be proven beyond the shadow of the doubt that R27s, as well as unrebuilt Redbird R30s (8412-8569) and rebuilt Redbird R30s and R30As all served on the "C" train in regular revenue service before going to the scrap heap. As a matter of fact, the "C" train was the last assignment of the GE R27s, all R30s (rebuilt and unrebuilt) and R30As as well as the bulk of the unrebuilt R10s and all rebuilt Green Hornet R10s before they were removed from revenue service.
I don't doubt that R27's and R30's ran on the C, but not in 1987 or 1988, as you claim. None ran there until after Archer Ave. opened on 12-11-88. Perhaps your dates are incorrect. From personal and extensive observation from the time periods in question, I can say they are.
Believe me, if I saw an R27 or R30 on the C line at the time you claimed they ran (1987/88) there (and I would have, since I rode the lines more than you, a mere commuter to/from work did), I would have taken notice immediatly. In fact, any time these cars did NOT run on the eastern division BMT lines during these years would've been an absolute shock to me.
Well you might as well be shocked, because they were not on the Eastern Division during the times that I stated. Also, I don't know how in the world you come to the conclusion that you rode the train more than I did, when you said that you went "surfing once to three times a week" versus me riding the train everyday as well as the fact that the train ran right past my window 20 hours a day, seven days a week. My God. If I wasn't riding them, I was looking at them every single day and night.
I'm not asking about regular service. I know that dosen't start 'till next August. But I heard here that the connector should be open for reroutes by the end of this year. Any idea when?
:)Andrew
It will be electrified (power turned on) in mid december. It will first be used to teach T/O's that will be using the track for revenue service the "nooks and crannies" of the connection.
-Harry
There is some confusion over whether the express tracks will be connected to the new line. MTA documents (Facts and Figures) say they will - others here on this site mention only the local tracks.
When I ride the E into Manhattan I don't feel or hear the train running over a switch as the floodlit section of tunnel goes by - so I assume the switches have not been installed yet(??)
The line is connected to both the Broadway and 6th Av lines - will both services be offered?
No confusion here. The 63 St.connector can be accessed by both Queens Exp. and Local trains. Next time you are on an "E" train, look out either the front or back of the train and you will see the switches.
Thanks - why didn't I think of that?
Probably because you have your head buried in the morning newspaper during your commute. Just like me! :)
I have to confess that I'm giddy about it opening, even for reroutes. I have this little secret wish on my inbound F train every morning that it will get rerouted down 63rd just for a change of pace.
Well, soon enough.
:)Andrew
Dear Sir/Madam
I am a regular subway rider who travels everyday. The poems that I have been seeing and reading are outdated and in need of some improvement. I consider myself a poet and believe I can contribute in this area. How can I get in touch with the MTA?
Yours sincerely,
ken. (circa 2000)
I was reading in todays Daily News about a LIRR wreck back in the 50's, I believe. Seventy-five people died. Can anybody shed some light on this?
Train#1896Mike
There were two of them,
Feb. 17th 1950 Rockville Centre 31 dead
Nov. 22nd 1950 Richmond Hill 79 dead
At least one of them had cars telescoping each other. I can't remember many details anymore.
Wasn't the Rockville Centre crash responsible for rebuilding the line on an embankment, to eliminate the grade crossings there?
BMTman
Wasn't the Rockville Centre crash responsible for rebuilding the line on an embankment, to eliminate the grade crossings there?
Quite the opposite - the crash occurred because the line was being rebuilt on an embankment. Temporary tracks were being used that didn't have sufficient clearance for two trains to pass in opposite directions.
Realy ... I too thought the opposite was true, thanks Peter.
Mr t__:^)
I seem to recall reading that the temporary track being used while the overpass was being constructed was a gantlet (sp?) track, making it an almost head-on collision.
subfan
That's correct. The left side running rails of each track overlapped each other.
As i understand, there was a similar arrangement on the Poughkeepsie Bridge of the New Haven Railroad in later years.
That would explain why the MP-54C got cut down the middle. They actually hit corner-to-corner, rather than full-frontal impact, which probably would have resulted in a telescope like at Richmond Hill.
wayne
A picture of each wreck can be found in the book "Steel Rails To The Sunrise" by Ron Ziel and George Foster. Copyright in 1965, this book may be out of print now. The two pictures, found on p. 270 show the terrible destruction of the cars involved.
I was delivering the Long Island Press at the time, and both wrecks were thoroughly covered in pictures and text in the paper at the time.
I wonder if there are any archives for this long gone newspaper!
Stan Fischler's "Next Stop,Grand Central", has some pertty gruesome pics,especially from the Forest Hills crash.Those early 50's were a pretty sad time for the area commuter railroads...First those LIRR wrecks, then the "Broker" disaster, THEN the incredible Jersey Central 'open bridge' mishap [according to Fischler, one poor schmoe ACTUALLY had been on 'The Broker', and then had the misfortune to be on that CRNJ train..but managed to survive both!], all within a four or five year period- no WONDER folks started RUNNING for their cars....!
The LIRR wrecks and the Jersey Central drawabridge mishap were eight years apart. (1950 and 1958).
The Rockville Center crash was the 'sideswipe' on the gantlet track, while Richmond Hill was the one where the one train never stopped in time and telescoped the train in front of it, landing on TOP of the last car of that train...UGH!
There were 2 major LIRR accidents. I believe they both occurred in 1950. One was at Richmond Hill -- I'm not sure of the details on that one. The second was at Rockville Centre during the construction to elevate the tracks there. Two trains collided head on at a point where the two tracks overlapped.
I'm not sure which wreck had more casualties, but both were bad.
And, if I'm not mistaken, these incidents led to the implementation of ASC.
Watch the crap!
Mark
Its called ATC or Automatic Train Control and the RoW based system had been active since the 1930's, but it is possible the MU's didn't have speed control units.
I believe the ATC system in place then *was* installed on the MUs, but didn't have train stopping capeabilities. I'm not sure though. The MUs might / might not have had ATC in them pre '50, but they most certainly were refitted with ASC afterwards
The definition of ATC is that it can stop the train. If not then they just had cab signals. I prefer ATC because on Amtrak its the LSL and on the LIAR its ASC when in reality they the same thing. No sence confusing people. All systems can be classified as Cab Signals (CSS), Automatic Train Stop (ATS), Automatic Train Control (ATC) and Automatic Train Operation (ATO). I'm just trying to keep it simple.
On the LIRR, it's called ASC, calling it anything else in that context without explaining as you eventually did WILL confuse people.
Watch the crap!
Mark
ATC is a generic term for anything that can control train speed based on the status of the line. It applies to all trains everywhere and the term should be familliar to any signaling fan and most railfans.
No, it is NOT called "ATC" on the Long Island Rail Road.
ATC is Automatic TRAIN Control.
Long Island Rail Road's system has been "ASC" (Automatic Speed Control), from day one of its usage. There is a big difference between ASC and ATC.
ATC is what PATCO, WMATA, BART, etc. has. It will fully control the train in all functions.
LIRR's ASC will give engineers indications as to the maximum speed their train should be travelling at, depending on SIGNALS. In the older setups (pre-1968) there were three indications: 15, 30, and MAS (Maximum Allowable Speed). Since 1968 the system has been upgraded and now has seven indications.
The way the system worked pre-1968, if a signal begins to restrict train movement from "CLEAR", the ASC would give the lower indication as needed, and blow a whistle. The engineer had to step on an "acknowlegement pedal" and begin to slow the train down to the proper speed as required by the new signal indication. If the engineer did not do these things within a certain time interval, the air dumped into emergency and the train stopped. Then they had to pump up the air to get going again. I don't think I ever saw this happen though; that whistle that blew was loud enough to wake the dead, so engineers were on the ball about acknowledgement and speed reduction.
The system that PATCO and BART etc uses is ATO or Automatic Train Operation. ATC is any safety system where a train's speed is controled depending on fixed signal indication. ATO is a form of ATC, but ATC does not imply ATO. Most ACT systems use an penalty brake application if the train goes overspeed and an enforced brake pipe reduction if the aspect drops down. Both the LIAR ASC and the Amtrak/Conrail LSL preform the same function and are both refered to as ATC. PATCO's ATC has the ability to accelerate the train and stop for reasons other than cab signal so it is ATO. The old New York central system and the Chicago Northwestern used(s) an intermittant Automatic Train Stop that can only halt the train if it passes a red signal. The coded cab signal based ATC systems in the US usually use a 4 aspect system for the 4 speeds (normal, limited, medium and slow) The LIAR setup would have to be compatable w/ at least these 4 speeds because they are used by Amtrak and into Penn Station.
The LIRR (it is NOT LIAR, when you gonna learn that?) system has had SEVEN aspects since after 1968. Before that, it only had three -- 15, 30, MAS -- and that was when LIRR was the only one in Penn Station that had it.
New Haven also had some cab signal system in their FL-9's and EP-5's when I rode in them in the 1960's, but I never saw it in use anywhere that I rode those units (Penn or GCT to Boston along entire NH main). I think they may have beeninuse on the NH-Springfield line though.
What are the 7 new aspects? I know that in and around Penn Station their system would have to be compatable with NORAC's 4 aspect system and that probably means eliminating 3 aspects. BTW the LIAR (Long Island 'Ail Road) takes you to New York Pig Station. If you still don't get it go back in time to last November.
LIRR ASC aspects are 0 15 30 40 55 65 80,
as seen on the ASC device/speedometer in the cab of any train.
What track circut codes does each speed use. For the standard PRR/NORAC/Metro-North system the pulses per second are 0, 75, 120 and 180. Does this system work on a greater than basis? I know that there are 2 new cab signals on the Shore Line 125 mph and 150mph. I would guess that the standard cab signal display would show clear for anything >= 180 pulses. Can a 4 aspect cab signal work on the LIAR's 7 aspect system? The LIAR evidently can work on a 4 aspect signaled line.
I trust that a loss of code means 0 mph, but how does the LIAR deal with Stop and Proceede signals, cab signal failure and the issuing of C cards to pass a red signal?
Hey, Jersey, Why do you call the Long Island RR LIAR?
Don't remember LIAR to New York-Pig Station?
Last November or December our friend Pork: The Other White Meat (nee Pigs of Royal Island) was changing his handle every other day. One of his handles was "LIAR to New York Pig Station". I was so struck by how funny and creative and TRUE turning that R to an A was that I desided then and there to always refer to it was the LIAR.
I'm _fairly_ sure that the new cab signal codes for the NE
corridor high speed service are audio frequency overlay codes
in the kiloHertz range which only rolling stock specially
equipped can receive. To ordinary cars with 4-aspect cab
signals these frequencies do not affect the operation and
they would continue to display a clear.
In terms of circuits, conventional ASC equipment doesn't exactly
work on a >= basis. There are separate detectors using tuned
decoding transformers for each of the 3 coding frequencies.
There is a tolerance range which is pretty tight, maybe 3 or 4
pulses per minute. If you were to send, say a 90 code into the
rails none of the detectors would pick up and you'd get a no-code.
No-code, under NORAC rules, is different from a no-code under
transit conditions. The most restrictive cab signal indication
is Restricting, and that is what is given for a no-code. If they
want you to stop they put up a wayside signal.
No-code, under NORAC rules, is different from a no-code under
transit conditions. The most restrictive cab signal indication
is Restricting, and that is what is given for a no-code. If they
want you to stop they put up a wayside signal.
But the LI(A)RR is not transit, its a full FRA railroad that's shares some of its route with freight trains and Amtrak. On ATO transit lines like PATCO it is essential that a no-code means 0 mph because train can be running sans driver input. A very important part of Railroads (vs transit) is the use of permissive operations. If a train is in a block all the trains behind it will get a no-code. I have seen Stop and Proceede signals on the LI"A"R so if a no-code means 0 mph the train operator would have to cut out ATC in order to proceede. Not a very safe practice. A no-code should result in a restricting speed and remaining safety responsibility should be given to the highly trained and highly professional engineer. If a no-code really does mean 0 mph then why do they keep Stop and Proceede signals? How could the NY&A freight trains w/ the same cab signal system operate?
PS: If the LIAR has full ATC why dosen't it operate trains above the 79 mph FRA non-ATC speed limit. If they aren't going to enjoy the benefits of ATC when why even use ATC?
As for the speed limits on the LIRR -- when the M-1's were new, they were tested up to 100 miles an hour.
Problem was, at that speed, the train would hit a crossing before the gates got all the way down due to the length of crossing protection signal circuits! (This is true, I'm not kidding.)
Rather than rewire and reblock the track signal circuits, the LIRR has decided to stay with an 80 mile-an-hour speed limit.
"Your saftey is our number one concern."
Any reason that they didn't decide to let the MAS be 100 (or some other "safe" speed) in non-grade-crossing territory?
Watch the crap!
Mark
A no-code is 0 mph, I have seen a cab signal flashing 0 very briefly
when the normal aspect is something else. I would assume that they
would cut out the ASC for a stop and proceed, but that should occur
very rarely because a train would have to be in the same block as the train
front of it. This happens only at Jamaica.
And the LIRR does go faster than 79: the maximum speed is 80.
The FRA permits you to fudge it to 80. Conrail did. I find it hard to believe that on a railroad as busy as the LIAR there isn't more Stop and Proceed running. I hate to say it, but I think that Metro-North has adopted a somewhat wiser approach.
/*New Haven also had some cab signal system in their FL-9's and EP-5's when I rode in them in the 1960's, but I never saw it in use anywhere that I rode those units (Penn or GCT to Boston along entire NH main). I think they may have beeninuse on the NH-Springfield line though.
*/
Oh man, if ONLY the EP-5s and other electrics could go to Springfield :(
What were the '5s like anyway? I know they were loud and prone to catching on fire, but how did they otherwise perform/sound/ride, etc? And did they really sound like jets when running?
Yes, they did sound like jets -- especially when in the confines of GCT or Penn Station tunnels. (The New York Central motors wee just as loud, but seemed to be higher in pitch. They didn't sound as "strong" as the EP-5's).
the one thing I didn't like riding in the cabs of the EP-5's -- it depended on which was the unit was turned -- there was the huge steam generator in one of the cabs, and if it was lit up, it was HOT.
The EP-5's rode well too, but they were somewhat heavy and had the six-wheel trucks.
/*The way the system worked pre-1968, if a signal begins to restrict train movement from "CLEAR", the ASC would give the lower indication as needed, and blow a whistle. The engineer had to step on an "acknowlegement pedal" and begin to slow the train down to the proper speed as required by the new signal indication. If the engineer did not do these things within a certain time interval, the air dumped into emergency and the train stopped. Then they had to pump up the air to get going again. I don't think I ever saw this happen though; that whistle that blew was loud enough to wake the dead, so engineers were on the ball about acknowledgement and speed reduction. */
You forgot the part that makes it so much fun - the old MUs didn't have a speedo in them :)
And those AMUE brakes probbably weren't to great either. So droping from MAS to 30 would probbably result in a bit of an earache for a while. But then, what was the top speed of the '54s anyway? 60? 70?
From what I have read most of the MP-54 did a maximum of 54 mph in service. They had straight AC motors and very poor acceleration. The MP-85's were about 1000 times better.
Agreed on both parts there....though the MP72's and MP75's when in solid consists of such cars, could do a little bit better onthe top speed than the MP54's.
Oh yeah, no speedometer....that WAS tricky to deal with.
I don't remember the brakes making that much noise when going through a reduction. But you didn't want to be in the cabs when an engineer dumped the air.....
It also has NOT been active since the 1930's. LIRR first used ASC in the early 1950's.
Cab Signals have been installed on the LIAR since the 30's. Cab signals are combined with an on board device to limit train speed.
When are you going to learn it is the Long Island Rail Road...LIRR???
The LIRR did NOT have cab signals in conjuction with safety devices to stop trains when signals are restrictive until after 1950.
Had they had some sort of system to stop a train passing a restrictive signal, NEITHER of those nasty wrecks that happened in 1950 would have happened. Both were attributed to engineers/motormen failing to slow down or stop for restrictive signals.
The LIRR did NOT have cab signals in conjuction with safety devices to stop trains when signals are restrictive until after 1950.
Yes, I agree. I was pointing out that they had Cab Signals installed without the locomotive side ATC equipment called ASC. The PRR did install ATC on its hi-speed passenger trains as mandated by the FRA for 79+mph operation.
Karl B is correct - (the death toll in the February 17 1950 crash was 32) - here is some more info -
The February 17 1950 crash occurred just around Morris Avenue (right near the firehouse) on temporary track (they were in the process of elevating the Rockville Centre station). It involved an MP-54A and an MP-54C arch roof car. It was a head-on crash, with full frontal impact. The MP-54C was basically split down the center by the MP-54A (which was also heavily damaged) as it bounced off the center of the sill. I believe the majority of the casualties occurred in the MP-54C car.
The November 22 1950 crash occurred on the main line west of Jamaica, just about where it crosses Metropolitan Avenue, on the embankment. A 12-car train to Hempstead had its brakes sieze as it tried to start up from a "stop" signal and it was unable to move forward. This train was hit in the twelfth car (an MP-54A) by Train No.174 to Babylon travelling at or in excess of 60 MPH. The lead motor of this train was an MP-54A1. This car telescoped the twelfth car of the Hempstead train almost its entire length, (all but about ten feet), lifting this coach into the air and driving its forward end through the vestibule of the eleventh car and into its seating area. 79 people died in this crash; with the majority in the last car of the Hempstead train but a significant number in the lead car of the Babylon train as well, including the engineer. They had to lift the twelfth car of the Hempstead train off of the first car of the Babylon train with a winch because they had become interlocked in the crash - the Hempstead train's last car was wrapped neatly around the first car of the Babylon train.
wayne
Thanks Wayne! You really know your stuff, it helped refresh my memory on a lot of details.
Didn't the Rockville Centre crash happen on gauntlet tracks, 2 tracks that overlap each other?? If I recall correctly thats how the head on occured. They were on separate tracks going in opposite directions but sort of sharing the same space.
By the way, something that hasn't been mentioned about the Queens wreck was that it was on Thanksgiving Eve.
The train out of Penn Station in the Rockville Centre crash was the one Sandy Koufax's parents normally took home from work (the family lived in Rockville Centre for a time before moving back to Brooklyn). As fate would have it, they just missed that train.
11/03/2000
Try Stan Fischler's book "Next Stop- Grand Central". Pictures of both wrecks are in the book.
Bill "Newkirk"
Wasn't there also a wreck in somewhere in the vicinity of Central Islip near the psychiatric hospital? I remeber reading in a Sunday edition of Newsday about 15 years ago how Sidney Siben (founder of the Bay Shore law firm of Siben & Siben) was on the scene handing out his business cards to the injured before help had arrived.
A true ambulance chaser in every sense of the word. Suffolk County was so rural that the Rescue Squads were overwhelmed.
Hahahahaha! Sidney Siben was ALWAYS the Bay Shore ambulance chaser!!! I remember him being that way when I was a kid living in Brightwaters, he had that reputation then in the mid-1960's!!!
There WAS a LIRR wreck at Pilgrim State Hospital around the time frame you mention -- from what I remember,it was an Alco C420 (202??) and some vandals had broken a switchlock and threw a switch from the mainline to a hospital spur and a train wrecked when it was sent around the curve to the spur. I think the cars on the train were P54's also.
That happened sometime in early part of 1971, February something - don't remember the exact day (Feb. 16? Feb. 15?) anyway Steve H is correct some vandals threw a siding switch and a diesel went into the spur at speed (nasty curve there) threw the loco and the first coach, which was one of the old 7400-series (ex. 400 series, yes I do believe they were P54 of some kind) car #7452 (ex.#452) attempted to mount the loco and the floor was mushed up almost to the ceiling at the forward end. There was a picture in the Long Island Press of a row of seats touching the ceiling fan (this car had paddle fans similar to those in the R-1/9 - Did other P54/MP54 cars have these fans too?) and IIRC there was at least one, perhaps a few, fatalities among the passengers.
That siding is still there pretty much but they rearranged the spur so it is off of the main line and has an approach track. One of these days I'm gonna go out there and explore that spur if I can (I'll go into the woods next to the golf course).
wayne
Yes, most of the P54/MP54 car had those big fans in them. All they did was blow the stink already in the cars around in circles. They did nothing to cool things down. :-)
They also did little to cool down the R-1/9 class cars either. Opening the windows worked better but was murder on the eardrums. The LIRR cars' windows didn't open, did they? (The diesel coaches' windows didn't open - and the A/C blowers recirculated the stench which emanated from THEM [ those with lavatories ] as well).
wayne
The LIRR cars' windows didn't open, did they?
The M1s were the first cars that did not have windows that opened...
No... that's not right either, the Worlds Fair cars were sealed too, weren't they? Well, I certainly remember opening the older ones.
Elias
Yes, the Zip's and '72 were the first sealed ones. What were the '54s like, anyway? How did they ride, accelerate, noise, etc?
They rode like crap. Lots of "hunting" and they didn't take rough spots too well. Perhaps they rode better when new, but in the 1950's and 1960's when I rode them, it was like a tugboat in a typhoon.
Noise? They had the usual "old m.u. car" humming/grinding due to the way the gears were cut between the motors and axles.
Acceleration was, well, fair. They wren't exactly rocket ships....but they weren't slow, either. It basically depended on how many motors and unmotorized trailers were in a train. LIRR mixed all the car types together -- but when you got a solid, totally motored set of MP72's (VERY rare) or MP75's (somewhat rare after the first year or so), they had some pretty good acceleration.
That siding is still there pretty much but they rearranged the spur so it is off of the main line and has an approach track. One of these days I'm gonna go out there and explore that spur if I can (I'll go into the woods next to the golf course).
That's the Pilgrim State siding near the Deer Park station, not the Central Islip siding. At which one did the wreck occur?
That is correct; the wreck occurred at the Deer Park siding, west of the (then) Pine Aire station.
Is there a spur off the line near Central Islip too? I'd like to know where that one leaves the line. I remember one in Kings Park but that's mostly gone now (some track remains on the former hospital grounds but the switch off the main line has been removed).
thanks
wayne
Is there a spur off the line near Central Islip too? I'd like to know where that one leaves the line. I remember one in Kings Park but that's mostly gone now (some track remains on the former hospital
grounds but the switch off the main line has been removed).
It's completely gone. Most likely, it was obliterated during the line's electrification in the 1980's. You can still trace the right of way from south of the station parking area all the way through to the former hospital power station. Based on this alignment, I would imagine that the switch was located about where the south-side platform is now located.
Wayne, I have some 1950's maps of the Hospital sidings to Pilgrim State and Central Islip on my LIRR History website.
Ah what a tour! Kings Park brings back some experiences for me (I worked in the Village near the station from 1996 to 1998) and had occasion to visit the Hospital proper in 1989 and 1990. I DID see the ROW in 1989.
Is Creedmoor a work-in-progress? I had occasion to visit there in 1961, 1962, and then from 1987 to 1991.
wayne
>>>Is Creedmoor a work-in-progress? I had occasion to visit there in 1961, 1962, and then from 1987 to 1991. <<<
Well that explains alot! 8-)
(sorry I just couldn't resist)
Peace,
ANDEE
Not me, my Grandfather (Alzheimers) then my Brother-In-Law (don't ask)
wayne
It more like "things to come" rather than "works in progress".
Ah what a tour! Kings Park brings back some experiences for me (I worked in the Village near the station from 1996 to 1998) and had occasion to visit the Hospital proper in 1989 and 1990. I DID see the ROW in 1989.
Is Creedmoor a work-in-progress? I used to play in the woods near there in 1968, 1969 and 1970. The tracks were still intact south of Hillside Avenue and along the ROW to the main line at Floral Park, as well as in the hospital grounds itself.
wayne
I was reading in todays Daily News about a LIRR wreck back in the 50's, I believe. Seventy-five people died. Can anybody shed some light on this?
Train#1896Mike
I read in the chief that the MTA is hiring train operators off the new list from exam #9058. Two questions, 1st Anyone know how many operators The MTA will be hired within the next year or so? 2nd Since NYC MTA is the parent company of the NYC TA, how easly would it be for a qualified Subway motorman to transfer to The LIRR or Metro-North as a Locomotive Engineer?
Answer #1: When the test was first announced, it was stated that NYC Transit was looking to hire 350 operators a year "for the next few years."
Answer #2: It's my understanding that being qualified to operate a NYC subway train has no bearing on the qualifications to be a railroad engineer. I imagine that - similar to NYC Transit's previous practice of only allowing their employees to take the exam for train operator as a promotional opportunity - only current Metro-North or LIRR employees are eligible to take the engineer exam.
Also remember LIRR and MNRR are under FRA rules where NYCTA is not. A whole different ball game.
The NYPD did a horrible job of maintaining and being fair to the crowds...to the point where yours truly nearly got arrested. I'm not going to go any further on this in here since my post is off-topic, but I would be happy (and would like to discuss) this with fellow subtalkers, especially if anyone knows [someone personally] or is apart of New York's finest. Nickmeister@Hotmail.com -Nick
Has the second edition of...
Twelve Historical NY City Transit Maps
found its way to area shelves yet?
www.forgotten-ny.com
I ordered and prepaid a copy of this directly from the publisher, H & M Productions, at the Fall Trolley Extravaganza in King of Prussia, PA in September. He said the book would be ready in November.
...and not by the method you usually hear by converting the Port Washington Branch into a subway extension.
Since the PA was so hot to build a Train-To-The-Plane along the Van Wyck to JFK, why not use the same principle and build an el branch from the #7 in Flushing Meadows, first along the Van Wyck and then along the LIE out to Little Neck Parkway?
Ah, but the NIMBYs won't let them. The South Jamaica NIMBYs didn't have enough clout to stop the TTTP from bein g rammed through.
Anyway, your proposed stops for the new #8 line, branching from the #7 in Flushing Meadows would be Queensboro Hill, Queens College, 164th St, Francis Lewis, Bell Blvd (lots of apartment buildings there that could use a subway branch), Oakland Gardens, Marathon, Little Neck.
Why not?
www.forgotten-ny.com
I don't think that many of the near-pastoral Eastern Queens communities would want to see the building boom, noise, construction disruption, and vagrancy subway lines seem to carry as unintended side effects. Some people actually seek to avoid the hurly burly of a neighborhood supported by an extensive rapid transit network, elevated or underground.
The Van Wyck does not have that many residences abutting it from Shea Stadium to the LIE, so this would be a waste of trackage IMO. Instead, why not tunnel our Fantasy 7 Train deeply under Main Street to the LIE where it would rise again and run above the LIE to Springfield Blvd, turn south and tunnel deeply underground again, and extend to Union Turnpike? Buses would then be able to feed whatever few outlying commuters who don't wish to use the Port Washington Branch to this line at several new stations along Springfield Boulevard.
Since stations on the original IRT were never designed with 11 car train service in mind, stations on this Fantasy 7 Train will have to be spaced wider and more strategically using the length of the trains to bridge two major thoroughfares whenever possible. The first stop from Main Street would be Booth Memorial Avenue (system southern end of station, extending system northward to just short of the LIE); followed by Kissena-Parsons Blvds stopping in between the two; Utopia Parkway (extending system northward to just short of the 188 Street shopping area); Francis Lewis Blvd; Bell Blvd (system northern end of station); Springfield/Horace Harding (curved station maybe?); 73rd Avenue; Union Turnpike (system southern end of station).
While we're at it, run these trains as a high-speed, no-stop super express between Main Street Flushing and Queensboro Plaza during rush hours on a modified center track on the existing ROW, and make this the through service to/from Union Turnpike during these hours. Have all trains running local between QBP and MSF terminate at Main Street Flushing in a fashion similar to Bronx rush hour 6 service. Yum!
The purpose of mass transit as I see it is not to serve everybody, but to serve as many people as possible with as little disturbance to anybody as possible. This line seems to me less obtrusive than extending it into the sparsely populated no-mans-land of northeastern Queens which is already adequately served by the upscale LIRR.
I am tickled that there are still people who dream about what we can do with the subway. The ideas I'm hearing are really good - maybe one day we'll see them inspire real progress.
One note about NIMBYs and vagrants: The Jamaica NIMBYs who opposed AirTrain (the link to Kennedy) totalled a couple of dozen people at most, and never represented the prevailing opinion in their communities. In fact, anecdotal evidence suggests that folks living along the Van Wyck are very satisfied with the manner that the train has been constructed. I am not saying that all concerns should be dismissed - only that we be honest and realistic about them.
As to vagrants: As I've said elsewhere on this site, modern rapid transit lines discourage vagrants by encouraging more business and pedestrian traffic, and spurring development in decaying neighborhoods. Linking subways to low-life visitors is often a "code" for old-fashioned racism - and ignorance.
Of course, the subway may not be appropriate everywhere - and where it does get built, homeowners will need good lawyers to avoid being "taken" by certain greedy or unscrupulous developers. Zoning will be an issue as well.
On Fri Nov 3 13:49:32 2000, RonInBayside dropped his pants and squeezed out this turd:
" . . . modern rapid transit lines discourage vagrants by encouraging more business and pedestrian traffic, and spurring development in decaying neighborhoods. Linking subways to low-life visitors is often a "code" for old-fashioned racism - and ignorance."
Vagrancy, dear sir, was only one of many points I said that people make about not wanting rapid transit in their neighborhood. "Vagrancy" could also mean that people who would not have otherwise gotten to, or had any reason to get to, a certain neighborhood can now access that neighborhood while still not having a reason to be there. Do you visit places that have no reasonable attraction for you? Well, people on the subway do, and sometimes bring a bit of the place they visited back with them to whatever rock they live under or cause their host neighborhood to look a bit like their residence neighborhood. Does it happen frequently? I don't think so, but it happens often enough to make whole communities think twice about passively allowing rapid transit projects to proceed.
You make a "modern rapid transit line" out to be this Utopia that, in your universe, people would be selling their right arm to obtain for their burgh. In fact, do the only two "modern rapid transit lines" in New York -- The Archer Avenue tunnel and the 63rd Street tunnel -- cause neighborhoods that were once a human cesspool and an ornery housing project respectively, to become the pre-eminent hotbeds of human industry and harmony? I think not. When was the last time you took your family to visit some fine ethnic restaurant in Queensbridge or hung around Archer Avenue for more time than it takes to board an LIRR train, huh?
"Racist" factual and unabashed rant aside, people do regularly choose to live outside the scope of mass transit because they do not want increased transient or alien pedestrian traffic, businesses that cater to it, the rumble of underground or elevated subway trains every two minutes or "spurred development" BECAUSE THEIR NEIGHBORHOOD WAS NOT DECAYING IN THE FIRST PLACE!!!!
Now do you see how a rapid transit line has the potential for reducing an upscale neighborhood to some lower common denominator -- the same denominator that may very well be a huge step up for a blighted shell of a neighborhood well past its better days?
I'm not finished with you yet. You suggested my view on vagrancy was racist. I simply attempted to explain how those who have built some degree of equity in themselves or their neighborhood have every right to want to preserve or increase it. Therefore, my arguments supporting a neighborhood not wanting a train line running through it were financial and sociological, and not racial, you mealy-mouthed bastard.
By the way, do you really live in Bayside? Well, if you want a train line running near you because it provides such a panacea, why not move out of Bayside and into Crown Heights, Bedford Stuyvesant, East New York, Harlem or The Hub and put your money where your big fat mouth is?
* * * * * *
GENERAL MESSAGE TO ALL WHO FREQUENT THIS BOARD -- I will not, nor should anybody else who posts to this board, tolerate accusations of racism if they are used as a weapon by those without the intelligence to formulate a constructive emotionless argument refuting my claims; Nor will I abandon or dilute my opinions because someone lacks the courage or base to refute them the same.
OOOOoooo......
There is SMOKE coming out of my computer.
Racism is a fact of life.
A nasty, unfair fact to be sure,
but a fact nonetheless.
Some people do not want other sorts of people to come into thier neighborhoods, or into their lives. Thier loss, perhaps.
Even the best neighborhoods on Long Island still have roudy, untame beasts preying on thier streets. (swallow hard, ok- they actually *do* live here, and are the same color as me.)
There is no answer to a person's fears....
They are afraid of other folk coming to thier part of town...
Well, that is thier fear, and they own it, and probably never be able to change it, even if they do hide it beind more palipable (according to them) words.
The absence of a subway train will not stop other kinds of people from moving into your neighborhood, but it will stop random people from having random access. It also bottles up in the neighborhood the same sort of (local) ruffians that might otherwise have taken a train out.
Who is to say?
There is no answer.
Understanding?
Of others, or of yourself?
Yes.
Elias
Downtown Glen Cove isn't exactly the kind of place you'd like to hang out after dark, and transit access is very poor. Glen Cove and surrounding areas would be much more like Great Neck, Manhasset, and Port Washington (better economy, home values) if the Oyster Bay branch had been electrified.
Glen Cove and surrounding areas would be much more like Great Neck, Manhasset, and Port Washington (better economy, home values) if the Oyster Bay branch had been electrified.
It would be like HEMPstead and West HEMPstead.
To Silver Fox:
Yes, I frequent Jamaica Center quite a bit, have eaten there, walked there, taken the LIRR there, taken the subway there. I've seen it before the Archer Avenue tunnel, and after. It took fifteen years to get the place better - and yes, it is a hotbed of development activity.
It also happens to be a predominantly minority neighborhood. That's not a problem for me, but it does appear to be a problem for you.
I'm glad you wrote, but I do feel sorry for you. The hatred and bigotry you expressed was clear for everyone to see.
"'Vagrancy' could also mean that people who would not have otherwise gotten to, or had any reason to get to, a certain
neighborhood can now access that neighborhood while still not having a reason to be there." - SilverFox
"....without a reason to be there." Not to raise any tempers here, but quite simply , this IS a free country, where people have the right to conduct their business, travels, and conduct other apsects of theirs lifes wherever they please! No one needs a "reason" to satisfy anyone else. No one was the right to interfere with other people's activities and choices in this nation - including where they live. The people in the neighborhoods you described have every right to choose where they live - and the OTHER people do as well!
Disapproving of new transit lines in order to keep people (of any race) out of an area is downright horrible. (Yes, this is not your only reason, but it is one of the reasons nonetheless.) And yes, I do live in New York and I do understand run-down neighborhoods - but taking potshots and labelling heighborhoods a "human cesspool" doesn't make it any better for anyone.
I don't know if you comments were racist (although after your response...) and I DO NOT want to get into that.
You do, however, seem to believe that transit, a very vital part of this city's infrastructure and historic economic success, is an inconceivably horrid plague upon the land. The first word that comes to mind concerning this attitude really is "NIMBY".
Again, this is not to raise tempers or to create controversy, but I did not expect to see this post here.
Of course Glen Cove and Sea Cliff residents were upset and electrification of the Oyster Bay line because it would lead to urban decay and "vagrancy". Well look at Glen Cove now. Rows of empty stores (even the new Ranch 1 on Glen closed). Decaying streets and sidewalks (especially around Glen st. station and Sea Cliff). Lots of hispanic immigrants living downtown. Peeing on sidewalks (downtown smells like urine). Drugs and gang problems, I've seen empty syringes in CVS parking lot and by N21,27 bus stop. Traffic congestion. All of the problems NIMBY's feared electrification would bring are here anyway.
The only decent part of Glen Cove where two strip malls are,as well as Farmers Bazaar and Stop and Shop supermarkets on Forest avenue, is not accesible by bus (N21 and N27 terminate downtown).
I really do hate this (Glen Cove-Sea Cliff) area. You got backward people in planning and denial that there is a problem, making it impossible to get around and improvement of run down areas a slow and nearly impossible job. I think alot of it has to do with poor OB line service. If the line was electrified, service improved areas around the train stations (downtown) would see more commuters moving in, and business would find these areas more profitable, providing a real turnaround for run down Glen Cove. Property values would also improve.
Bravo to somebody who really makes some sense.
Studies by the Port Authority and others have proven that property values rise near modern rapid transit stations. Proof: Roosevelt Island, Jamaica Center. In Atlanta, one bedroom apts. near MARTA rail cost at least $100 more in rent per month than in areas not served by MARTA. Washington DC suburbs such as Bethesda reacted similarly to the introduction of Metrorail service. To be fair, housing density increased, as well. This increases the relative enery-efficiency of an area, but does not always sit well with those who prefer single-family home living. But in no case did property values, or economic activity, fall.
In Boston, the completion of the Red Line extension north of Harvard in the 1980's also made possible the creation of a new wildlife preserve at Alewife (which is also the name of the fish found in its creek).
Also, please note that the prosperity and property values in Forest Hills and the like would never have been realized were it not for the decision to build the Queens Blvd. IND service in the 1940's.
Transit is not a panacea, however, and further away from the stations the neighborhood looks more unchanged. The ultimate positive impact is delivered by private investors or public and private investors who step into the market during or after transit line completion.
Yes, it can be very difficult to get progress sometimes. And, yes, I also believe that improved service could only help a community. In my neighborhood in Queens there are two transit lines, the LIRR (in the southern part) and several bus routes (admittedly, not the greatest bus lines). The assorted stores and shops that line the larger streets would never see the business that they do without the transit services present. A fair number of people I see here do not drive (including a large number of senior citizens - believe me, their dollars count!),and parking is atrocious anyway (from personal experience here).
turnstiles:
I'm not exactly sure where your neighborhood is but if you're in the southern part of Queens they could extend the IND Queens Blvd./Hillside Ave. line to the Nassau border and if your near enough to Bayside they could extend the IRT #7 line to the Nassau border at that point.
BMTJeff
Heck, I'll take either line! Queens is so depauperate of rail transit lines that I can't be too opposed to most extension plans. I do, however, favor, the IND extension because the #7 line has an intense (90 seconds or so, in rush hours) headway on both local and express services, and has only three lines. The IND line's local tracks are (certainly) not filled to capacity even in rush hours (IMHO). And with the G line on the way out, even more room should be available on this line.
Sorry, I said that the LIRR runs throught the southern part of my neighborhood, not that my neighborhood is in southern Queens! Sorry for the confusion. I also don't live in Jamaica/Bayside, but I have more than a passing familiarity with this area since elementary school, which is why I felt ready to write some of my earlier posts. I have studied in libraries there, taken a number of college classes there, travelled to friends' places, eaten (in a number of restaurants and fast food places - I prefer to cook at home when possible), performed in music association (children's) piano contests, and done a number of other things in the area (including railfanning - :) ).
Oops, I meant that the #7 train had only three tracks, not lines. Sorry!
-turnstiles
turnstiles:
I agree with with that Queens is depauperate of rapid transit lines that extending or adding rapid transit lines would be an excellent idea. Maybe a few more rapid transit lines could help to improve that quality of life for those Queens residents who lack ready access to rapid transit in their neighborhood.
BMTJeff
Of course Glen Cove and Sea Cliff residents were upset and electrification of the Oyster Bay line because it would lead to urban decay and "vagrancy". Well look at Glen Cove now. Rows of empty stores (even the new Ranch 1 on Glen closed). Decaying streets and sidewalks (especially around Glen st. station and Sea Cliff). Lots of hispanic immigrants living downtown. Peeing on sidewalks (downtown smells like urine). Drugs and gang problems, I've seen empty syringes in CVS parking lot and by N21,27 bus stop. Traffic congestion. All of the problems NIMBY's feared electrification would bring are here anyway.
The only decent part of Glen Cove where two strip malls are,as well as Farmers Bazaar and Stop and Shop supermarkets on Forest avenue, is not accesible by bus (N21 and N27 terminate downtown).
I really do hate this (Glen Cove-Sea Cliff) area. You got backward people in planning and denial that there is a problem, making it impossible to get around and improvement of run down areas a slow and nearly impossible job. I think alot of it has to do with poor OB line service. If the line was electrified, service improved areas around the train stations (downtown) would see more commuters moving in, and business would find these areas more profitable, providing a real turnaround for run down Glen Cove. Property values would also improve.
P.S. Repost since my computer got stuck, sorry
>>>If the line was electrified, service improved areas around the train stations (downtown) would see more commuters moving in, and business would find these areas more profitable, providing a real turnaround for run down Glen Cove. Property values would also improve.<<<
Tell that to the residents of Wyandanch. They got their LIRR service electrified a few years back and the place is still a horrendous pit.
If Oyster Bay service were to be electrified tomorrow, Glen Cove would still be in sorry shape.
Isn't it weird that there is such a vast difference in communities separated by one station stop?(not town, but stop) Glen Cove is horrible while you couldn't buy a refridgerator box for $300,000 in Locust Valley. Same thing with Lawrence and Inwood.
Just being a devil's advocate:
Aren't the Flushing Line trains filled to capacity already with very close headways? Where would you put the extra people??
I've always thought it would be better to tunnel the #7 from main St north to Northern Blvd and the nunder Northern Blvd, which would bring many more people to the subway then using the LIE as a ROW
Or how about an entirely different system being built. With congestion in Nassau getting severe in spots, why not build a line that runs within Nassau and connects to various subway and LIRR in Queens?
Unfortunately though NIMBY's will probably kill our dreams.
You would need WAY MORE than just one line in Nassau; you would need an entire network of lines with the backbone, a four-track line, going right down Hempstead Turnpike from Elmont to Hempstead to Levittown to Babylon via Route 109 AND to the Route 110 Corridor via Farmingdale. It could be hooked up with the LIRR at Belmont Park with a huge parking garage next to the CI Parkway (but distanced from the nearby homes). Another branch would have to be somewhere north; perhaps Union Turnpike/Marcus Avenue/Nassau Boulevard. Yet another branch would have to serve the Five Towns/Lynbrook area.
Please don't hurl stones or gasoline bombs at me - this is just a pipe dream I know but someday Nassau might need something like this or it will choke to death on its own traffic. Western Suffolk is getting like this too.
wayne
I have designed a BAHN layout of a Nassau subway style system with quite a few lines. A four track line down Hempstead tpke from Farmingdale. The section east of Hempstead is wide enough, but west of Hempstead the express tracks will be at a lower level. It will connect to Sutphin Blvd and Jamaica Center for LIRR and E,J,Z, and the F at the Sutphin Blvd station.
Alot of express trains will run between Jamaica and Roosevelt Field.
A light rail designed for the HUB, as well as a line under Jericho Tpke to Flushing. Also there would be lines serving the north shore, the traffic up here is impossible, we need a solution.
Email me and I'll send you the LIRT (Long Island Rapid Transit) BAHN layout. Well someday it's gotta happen, when the NIMBY's are long gone and thrown out by militant socialists! :-)
[It will connect to Sutphin Blvd and Jamaica Center for LIRR and E,J,Z, and the F at the Sutphin Blvd station. ]
But these lines are already at capacity with no way to increase it.
Perhaps connecting at ENY could work.
Arti
The Long Island Rail Road Port Washington Branch already adequately serves the area immediately north of Northern Boulevard. It offers a 34 minute ride to Penn Station from Little Neck while the 7 Train is hard pressed covering the distance from Main Street to Times Square in the same time. As an express.
Additionally, the LIRR PW Branch provides generous local service within Queens -- a distance of Little Neck to Main Street with five stations in between -- for only something like $1.75.
What traffic would the 7 train realize in pax traveling entirely between Little Neck and Main Street? Very little, I would imagine. And those under existing circumstances not wishing to wait up-to an hour for a ride on the Railroad are covered by the Q12 and Q13 buses that run more frequently.
Other than price, what advantage would extremely Eastern Queens riders see in riding a slower train to approximately the same Manhattan destination as the LIRR? More frequent service? If price weren't an object, what would you rather do -- board an awaiting 7 train at Little Neck and take approximately 75 to 90 minutes to get to Times Square, or wait up-to 59 minutes* for the next LIRR train that will take you to a similar destination (a difference of only 7 blocks to Times Square, and three or four avenues to Grand Central) in 34 minutes?
You would rather keep moving on the 7 Train you say? Well, I would rather spend the 59 minutes* asleep; Or with my girlfriend; Or getting a nice meal. Anything but be locked in a slow-rolling box with all kinds of junk peddlers, panhandling skells, and even the possibility of not getting a seat and having to stand the entire way.
The LIE is at least one mile south of Northern Boulevard and there are tremendous numbers of people between Union Turnpike and 48th Avenue who would stand to benefit from this service than having to trudge up to the LIRR or down to the ghastly F-Train. Keep the ROW above the LIE.
*Very few people wait 59 minutes on an LIRR platform waiting for the next train if they just missed one. If they know the following train won't arrive for an hour, they will keep themselves occupied with something else, and the time will be theirs. My point is that I would rather have the difference in travel time (75-90 minutes of continuous travel on the Fantasy Northern Blvd 7 Train versus 34 minutes on the LIRR) to do what I want rather than spend it in transit, no pun intended.
Why not run frequent (every 10 minutes) shuttles between Willets Point and Great Neck. Terminal and reversing facilities are already in place at both these stations.
Change the bus routing to terminate at Murray Hill, Broadway, Auburndale, Bayside, Douglaston or Little Neck. Everything north of the LIE would terminate at one of these stations instead of going into Flushing.
The money saved from shorter bus routes and fewer buses would pay for most of the increased rail cost. The passenger time savings (running + waiting times) should be considerable.
I was on the PW branch today. We wrong-railed the while way to Woodside. Very fast though. After Flushing, there's only the stop at Woodside. No wonder why so many people in Flushing still take the LIRR over the 7. The M-1/3's are more comfortable, even if you're standing.
The stretch between Shea and Woodside on the Port Washington branch is very fast.
Nice fast ride through the East River tunnels (much better than the Steinway crawl, ooops I meant tubes). The train hit 60 through the Penn tubes, and stayed there for about a minute (Id like to see subway train do that!).
The Penn tubes are beautifully lit and in fairly good condition but there are some major water leaks (mainly at Manhattan side on city bound tube).
[Aren't the Flushing Line trains filled to capacity already ...]
Oh yes ... would need another pair of tubes under the East River FIRST
Mr t__:^)
As someone who lives in Oakland Gardens, I can tell you that Eastern Queens is not that sparsely populated at all.
And about that LIRR--It's EXPENSIVE! I'd just as soon not pay like $120 a month for an interboroough commute.
I'd sure use the 7 if it were in my neighborhood. And I know it's crowded already (what is it with these IRTs?), but if they ran it super-express from Main Street west and hat the locals terminate at Main (as my fellow poster suggested) it might well be workable.
I didn't mean that it wasn't needed, just that the #7 can't handle much more traffic without more capacity, i.e. to Manhattan.
Another option would be to use the middle track during rush hours to get the the IND (E/F/R/G) then use that line which will have two options, i.e. 53rd & 63rd Street tunnels.
The trouble is nothing is on the horizon ... I mean if the sTubway is only going to get another STUDY, what hope is there for Eastern Queens. Well you can always take one of my friendly coaches for $3.00, but then you didn't like the $120 cost (same price for a unlimited monthly bus MC).
Mr t P.S. I'm speaking for myself and not necessarly QSC :-)
I'd just as soon not pay like $120 a month for an interboroough commute.
You are already paying $90 a month to ride the subway. That extra $1. a day is not all that bad, you just gotta pay it all up front.
LIRR trains run on schedule, so even if frequency is low, you still do not have to wait for a train.
Elias
[You are already paying $90 a month to ride the subway. That extra $1. a day is not all that bad, you just gotta pay it all up front. ]
30 day unlimited is $63.
[LIRR trains run on schedule, so even if frequency is low, you still do not have to wait for a train. ]
But if you miss the train...
Arti
30 day unlimited is $63.
Ahh...... so!, I have not used the subway all month since '79.
But if you miss the train...
Plan ahead!
Elias
[But if you miss the train...
Plan ahead! ]
Well if you miss something, it usually means that something went wrong with your plans, happenes.
Arti
But the LIRR dosen't take me directly to my job, nor to most people's jobs (except the few who work within a few blocks of Penn.) There would still be the cost of roughly $60 a month ON TOP OF the $120 a month. That's a BIG difference.
That's why I drive to the subway at 179th and put up with parking in that neighborhood.
Andrew
Could be solved by TSM.
Arti
Ah... yes... I worked at 33rd Street and 7th Avenue.
: )
Elias
>>>(except the few who work within a few blocks of Penn.)<<<
I think that you will find considerably more than a "few" people work within an 8 block radius of PENN.
Peace,
ANDEE
I'd think that many of the riders on the extended 7 would be passengers who already take a bus to downtown Flushing anyway; it would be a similar situation with an extended E or F.
The "extra" people are those who, today, have to go to Main Street or wherever to catch a NYC-bound train. Instead of their having to scuttle into the Main Street hole in the ground to board an agonizingly slow sardine can that stops numerous times, the train will come to them.
As it stands, the Transit Authority growls that express trains save commuters only five minutes terminal-to-terminal over the locals. Fine. Have those boarding after Main Street spend an extra one to five minutes on a pure local while those who spend as much time getting to Main Street as riding the 7 itself save the time getting to Main Street, and subsequently in not having to stop at Shea Stadium, Junction Boulevard, and Woodside.
Hell, just going from Utopia Parkway and Horace Harding on the Q-17 costs a 10 minute wait for the bus and an agonizingly slow 20-or-more minute ride to Main Street.
Total time savings, round-trip for outlying commuters, off the top of my head -- An hour a day. A HUGE increase in these commuters' quality of life.
There are already signs on the R62 cars for an 8 line, but the 8 is green. The only logical choice for a number for this line is 11, which already has the purple. Love the idea of a subway line to Queens College, as I am a student here. Although I am kind of used to having stations named for the streets they cross (34th, 42nd, 50th, etc.), having the neighborhoods they serve as an addition (33rd Street-Rawson Street-Long Island City, 40th Street-Lowery Street-Sunnyside) isn't a bad idea either. Your stations could be called:
Main Street-Queensboro Hill
Kissena Boulevard-Queens College*
164th St
(Utopia Parkway)
Francis Lewis Boulevard*
Bell Blvd
Springfield Boulevard-Oakland Gardens*
Marathon Parkway
Little Neck Parkway*
* are express stations, and () are stations I added. But with those NIMBY's, I doubt it will happen.
Bad idea. This part of Queens actually DOESN'T want subway service. They like the suburban lifestyle.
What about this? Why not have a Washington Metrorail-type of service on the Port Washington Line? It would have a higher frequency than the present LIRR service there but not quite as much as a subway line. It could be connected into the upper level of the 63rd St Tunnel and then operate down the Broadway Express tracks in Manhattan. It could relieve overcrowding not just on the 7, but maybe also the E and F trains. And it would free up space at Penn Station. This plan was suggested by the RPA in 1997. It just might work.
What about converting Flushing line to BMT specs and connect it at Queensboro Plaza to Broadway line. Then connect Steinway tunnel to Port Washington line. It would make automated fare collection possible.
Arti
What about converting Flushing line to BMT specs and connect it at Queensboro Plaza to Broadway line. Then connect Steinway tunnel to Port Washington line. It would make automated fare collection possible.
Three questions:
1. What kind of equipment would you run on the PW line?
2. Would you lengthen the Flushing Line platforms to 600'?
3. What about the Astoria Line?
[1. What kind of equipment would you run on the PW line? ]
Depends if the line would be premium fare or not. If not, it would be regular IRT rolling stock. With premium fare special order or modified IRT cars with upgraded amenities. Corona Yard would require LIRR access.
2. Would you lengthen the Flushing Line platforms to 600'?
Yes. With less frequent service the extra capacity is needed.
3. What about the Astoria Line?
59th street tube would serve N to Astoria and R to Flushing. No Queens Boulevard service from Broadway.
Arti
[1. What kind of equipment would you run on the PW line? ]
Depends if the line would be premium fare or not. If not, it would be regular IRT rolling stock. With premium fare special order or modified IRT cars with upgraded amenities. Corona Yard would require LIRR access.
So, you would be using IRT size cars. The existing IRT cars seat 44. Assume that premium seating might raise this to 60. You would need twice as many IRT cars to duplicate the existing PW service.
2. Would you lengthen the Flushing Line platforms to 600'?
Yes. With less frequent service the extra capacity is needed.
A 600' long 10'wide train holds 15% - 20% more passengers than the existing 11 car long Flushing trains. So, you would be able to duplicate the existing service with 24 tph instead of 30 tph.
3. What about the Astoria Line?
59th street tube would serve N to Astoria and R to Flushing. No Queens Boulevard service from Broadway.
With the Flushing Line accounting 24 tph in the 60th St tunnel, just how many trains are you planning to run to Astoria?
Am I correct in assuming that you will not eliminate Queens Blv-Broadway service but simply route it through 63rd St? Or do you propose to force passengers to change at Roosevelt Ave for a Broadway bound Flushing Local?
[So, you would be using IRT size cars. The existing IRT cars seat 44. Assume that premium seating might raise this to 60. You would need twice as many IRT cars to duplicate the existing PW service. ]
More frequent service making tho whole line more of a subway style than commuter rail. Some trains have to terminate at Great Neck as the single track from that on couldn't handle that frequent service.
[A 600' long 10'wide train holds 15% - 20% more passengers than the existing 11 car long Flushing trains. So, you would be able to duplicate the existing service with 24 tph instead of 30 tph. ]
More frequent service on PW subway will take take the load off the slow new R train, so you could reduce TPH.
[With the Flushing Line accounting 24 tph in the 60th St tunnel, just how many trains are you planning to run to Astoria? ]
Current level of service to Astoria rest to Flushing.
[Am I correct in assuming that you will not eliminate Queens Blv-Broadway service but simply route it through 63rd St? Or do you propose to force passengers to change at Roosevelt Ave for a Broadway bound Flushing Local? ]
Yes some local via 63rd street.
Arti
More frequent service making tho whole line [PW] more of a subway style than commuter rail. Some trains have to terminate at Great Neck as the single track from that on couldn't handle that frequent service.
Peak headways are 3 to 5 minutes. Given the differences in car sizes and train lengths, you will problably need 30 tph to provide duplicate seating capacity.
More frequent service on PW subway will take take the load off the slow new R train, so you could reduce TPH.
How does the "R" Queens Blvd Local come into this equation? The MTA did a very thorough job of demolishing the Elmhurst LIRR Station.
Current level of service to Astoria rest to Flushing.
Okay, 12 tph from Astoria brings the 60th St tunnel up to 36 tph. Oops, current TA thinking and parctices preclude such service levels.
[Peak headways are 3 to 5 minutes. Given the differences in car sizes and train lengths, you will problably need 30 tph to provide duplicate seating capacity. ]
PW operates at 2 to 3 TPH currently.
[How does the "R" Queens Blvd Local come into this equation? The MTA did a very thorough job of demolishing the Elmhurst LIRR Station. ]
R will go to Flushing instead of Forest Hills.
[Okay, 12 tph from Astoria brings the 60th St tunnel up to 36 tph. Oops, current TA thinking and parctices preclude such service levels. ]
Flushing service could be 18 tph. Reconfigure some bus routes now feeding Main street to feed to PW line and the capacity problem is solved.
Arti
Flushing service could be 18 tph. Reconfigure some bus routes now feeding Main street to feed to PW line and the capacity problem is solved.
You are assuming that 25% or more of the passengers for the entire Flushing Line arrive by bus from points east of Main St. That is not the case. I can reliably report that there are definitely significant numbers of passengers using the other 13 stations.
The second problem is that the new PW service is already maxed out carrying the same load as the present service. This is due to differences in car size and train length. If you want to further increase PW capacity, then you can't use IRT sized cars.
The third problem is that the most popular Manhattan station is Grand Central. Downtown Lex trains are far more crowded at 59th than they are at Grand Central. You have added about 10 minutes to the most popular destination, if we include increased waiting time for Flushing trains and transfer time.
Now, just which passengers is this plan designed to benefit?
[You are assuming that 25% or more of the passengers for the entire Flushing Line arrive by bus from points east of Main St. That is not the case. I can reliably report that there are definitely significant numbers of passengers using the other 13 stations. ]
I'd assume most who board at Main St. would prefer much faster PW train if it were more affordable and frequent. It would probably make express service obsolete or you could create reverse direction exp to get trains faster to Main St.
[The second problem is that the new PW service is already maxed out carrying the same load as the present service. This is due to differences in car size and train length. If you want to further increase PW capacity, then you can't use IRT sized cars. ]
As I said currently it's 2 max 3 tph. This is far from 30 tph it could possibly be.
[The third problem is that the most popular Manhattan station is Grand Central.]
Why would GC be the most popular destination?
[Downtown Lex trains are far more crowded at 59th than they are at Grand Central.]
Not really at GC they fill up quite nicely.
[You have added about 10 minutes to the most popular destination, if we include increased waiting time for Flushing trains and transfer time. ]
And decreased it for people working Downtown, around 59th street, West Middtown...
[Now, just which passengers is this plan designed to benefit? ]
Pretty much everyone but those few who live on the 7 line past Shea Stadium and work near GC.
Arti
[The second problem is that the new PW service is already maxed out carrying the same load as the present service. This is due to differences in car size and train length. If you want to further increase PW capacity, then you can't use IRT sized cars. ]
As I said currently it's 2 max 3 tph. This is far from 30 tph it could possibly be.
From the MTA Website the LIRR schedule for the PW Branch shows arrivals at: 7:03; 7:14; 7:24; 7:46; 7:55; 7:58; 8:11; 8:26; 8:35; 8:38; 8:44; 8:59; 9:02; 9:14; 9:20. Most of these trains are SRO. The peak between 8:20 and 9:00 shows 5 trains or a 15 tph.
Again due to differences between the car sizes and train lengths, this corresponds to 30 tph through the Steinway tunnels for the existing PW traffic only.
[The third problem is that the most popular Manhattan station is Grand Central.]
Why would GC be the most popular destination?
Do you doubt it?
[Downtown Lex trains are far more crowded at 59th than they are at Grand Central.]
Not really at GC they fill up quite nicely.
From the East Side Planning Study (also on the MTA website) Table 9D-9
The leave loads for Lex Expresses are: 1.09 and 1.02 at 59th and Grand Central, respectively. The figures for the locals are: 0.90 and 0.56.
These figures would indicate that despite the great influx of Metro North commuters, Grand Central is a very popular destination.
[You have added about 10 minutes to the most popular destination, if we include increased waiting time for Flushing trains and transfer time. ]
And decreased it for people working Downtown, around 59th street, West Middtown...
The present scenerio for Flushing to downtown riders is to is to transfer at GC. The running times for from QueensBoro Plaza to GC are the same via the Steinway Tunnels and via the 60th St Tunnel and a transfer to the Lex.
I agree that Flushing passengers bound for the 4 stations on the Broadway Line between Queensboro Plaza and Times Squaer will arrive 2 minutes earlier. This is due to the wait time for the cross platform transfer at Queensboro Plaza.
[Now, just which passengers is this plan designed to benefit? ]
Pretty much everyone but those few who live on the 7 line past Shea Stadium and work near GC.
You are working under the assumptions that the existing PW trains are not running at max load levels and that there are far fewer trains running during rush hour than is currently the case. Neither assumption is true. The MTA has reduced the number of rush hour LIRR trains stopping at Main St, Elmhurst and Woodside to reduce load levels. Ridership can be increased on the PW line but not with IRT car dimensions.
[Again due to differences between the car sizes and train lengths, this corresponds to 30 tph through the Steinway tunnels for the existing PW traffic only. ]
But that would be the only traffic.
[From the East Side Planning Study (also on the MTA website) Table 9D-9
The leave loads for Lex Expresses are: 1.09 and 1.02 at 59th and Grand Central, respectively. The figures for the locals are: 0.90 and 0.56.
These figures would indicate that despite the great influx of Metro North commuters, Grand Central is a very popular destination. ]
Now what would the figures be for uptown trains. 59th, 51st, 42nd are popular destinations becaus lot of workplaces are located there. Currently some 7 customers either have to use QB or Lex to get to 59th St for example.
[The present scenerio for Flushing to downtown riders is to is to transfer at GC. The running times for from QueensBoro Plaza to GC are the same via the Steinway Tunnels and via the 60th St Tunnel and a transfer to the Lex. ]
Running times perhaps, but you woud have to transfer and that alone would add several minutes. Also we all know that both Lex and QB are way overcrowded unlike Broadway.
[You are working under the assumptions that the existing PW trains are not running at max load levels and that there are far fewer trains running during rush hour than is currently the case. Neither assumption is true. The MTA has reduced the number of rush hour LIRR trains stopping at Main St, Elmhurst and Woodside to reduce load levels. Ridership can be increased on the PW line but not with IRT car dimensions. ]
Connecting PW to Broadway via 63rd would not allow you to have 30tph. Perhaps 15 tph max. Also this would not allow to separate the service from general subway easily. My idea would create a totally separated ROW and NIMBYs in NE Queens probably won't object that much.
Arti
[From the MTA Website the LIRR schedule for the PW Branch shows arrivals at: 7:03; 7:14; 7:24; 7:46; 7:55; 7:58; 8:11; 8:26; 8:35; 8:38; 8:44; 8:59; 9:02; 9:14; 9:20. Most of these trains are SRO. The peak between 8:20 and 9:00 shows 5 trains or a 15 tph. ]
Wait a second it's 5 tph!!
Arti
The max is 3 trains in a 15 minute interval. That extrapolates to 12 trains in a 60 minute interval.
60 = 15 x 4
12 = 3 x 4
If you look at the schedule you'll notice that those trains serve alternate stations. That spacing probably has to do with Penn Station's limited capacity and not the actual demands of the riders. So I'll stand by 5 tph.
Arti
If you look at the schedule you'll notice that those trains serve alternate stations. That spacing probably has to do with Penn station's limited capacity and not the actual demands of the riders. So I'll stand by 5 tph.
All the trains are running SRO. The MTA schedulers essentially decided to split the PW Branch into 3 separate sub-branches: Great Neck - PW; Bayside-Great Neck and Woodside-Auburndale. Had they not done this then the Woodside-Auburndale customers would not get any seats.
And LIRR commuters give up their M-1's for smaller, narrower slower IRT size cars?
[And LIRR commuters give up their M-1's for smaller, narrower slower IRT size cars? ]
And get more frequent service with more transfer options. And the cars don't have to be slower.
Arti
Well they might if the cars were new and state of the art. It would be cool if they had Japanese-style metro trains running on this new PW subway line, built with IRT specs.
I think that my plan would suit Eastern Queens NIMBYs better than connecting to Broadway.
Arti
Major problems adjusting the Steinway tunnels for anything bigger than IRT-width cars -- remember the R-62s couldn't even fit through corrently when they first arrived.
Also, with the turns between Queensboro Plaza and Hunter's Point Ave., I doubt even the BMT/IND 60-footers could negotiate the curves, while the first 75-footer that tried it would certainly end up on the Queensboro Bridge approach ramp (which should not be done until the MTA decides to stage its "Farewell to the R-44s" train tour).
[Major problems adjusting the Steinway tunnels for anything bigger than IRT-width cars -- remember the R-62s couldn't even fit through corrently when they first arrived. ]
I would run IRT spec cars. They are less capacity but I'd run them more frequently.
[Also, with the turns between Queensboro Plaza and Hunter's Point Ave., I doubt even the BMT/IND 60-footers could negotiate the curves, ]
I'd connect to LIRR around Hunters Point Av. The elevated between Hunters Point and Queensboro Plaze would be demolished.
Arti
What happens to the current 7/N transfer at Queensboro Plaza? That would force even more passengers onto the Grand Central platform, or onto the E/F/R trains to transfer at 74th Street.
[What happens to the current 7/N transfer at Queensboro Plaza? That would force even more passengers onto the Grand Central platform, or onto the E/F/R trains to transfer at 74th Street. ]
Flushing train would become Broadway local, so there's no need to transfer.
Arti
It would make automated fare collection possible since it would be a stand-alone line, but the smaller IRT cars would make Metrorail-style seating harder because of their length and width. But if we connect the PW to the 63rd St Tunnel and Broadway, riders from PW, Great Neck and NE Queens would have one-seat rides to many midtown and lower Manhattan destinations. Plus, people from the other LIRR lines could always transfer to the PW line to get to these same destinations, rather than have to do it at Penn Station.
[But if we connect the PW to the 63rd St Tunnel and Broadway, riders from PW, Great Neck and NE Queens would have one-seat rides to many midtown and lower Manhattan destinations.]
One problem woud be the remaining capacity of 63rd st tunnel. They don't have it right now, but they'll gain easyer access to misc. other routes.
At the same time a people on current Flushing line woud get that benefit.
Arti
God no! The Steinway tubes are too narrow for M-1 trains. And they are old and slow. The Steinway tubes should be WIDENED first.
IRT spec cars.
Arti
For the 100th time, you can not mix passenger equipment between
the LIRR and the NYC subway? Why not? ADA. The platform heights
are different. Running IRT width equipment on the LIRR would
only increase the problem. Maybe you could run modified B division
spec equipment with some sort of (as yet not invented or at least
never implemented) amazing trucks that could compensate for the
8" height difference.
Platforms and or tracks can be raised or lowered, and extensions added, but the truth is (Polititians with their heads in the sand notwitstanding) the number of users is going to continue to rise.
More tunnels and or rail birdges to Manhattan are urgently required. A massive influx of investment and construction is needed. Close the queensboro bridge to vehicles, and run rails across it, connect to the Second Avenue Subway. Build a 34th Street Rail-mall project to connect the QMT to the Lincoln, and get LI-NJ traffic off of city streets.
You either look at the BIG PICTURE or you fight over the little details forever and never build another inch of track.
Then you do it, and lock out the NIMBYs, tell them to move to Wyoming if they don't like it (we certainly don't want them here in North Dakota)
Oh well.... even the little plans are interesting, even if they are impracticle. If you do not have dreamers, then the accountants will take over, and stiffle the whole world.
Elias
Then you do it, and lock out the NIMBYs, tell them to move to Wyoming if they don't like it (we certainly don't want them here in North Dakota).
But doesn't that make you a NIMBY yourself?
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
More tunnels and or rail birdges to Manhattan are urgently required. A massive influx of investment and construction is needed. Close the queensboro bridge to vehicles, and run rails across it, connect to the Second Avenue Subway...
You either look at the BIG PICTURE or you fight over the little details forever and never build another inch of track.
The queensboro bridge can't hold the weight. details, details, details...
[Close the queensboro bridge to vehicles, ]
What would feed it from the Queens side?
Arti
My main point: just because there are two rail lines somewhat
close to each other that are both the same gauge doesn't mean
that it is practical to connect them for passenger service.
Too often, people post "plans" for improving transit that are
so completely divorced from the constraints of reality as to
be ludicrous.
Do we really need more tracks into Manhattan? That point
could be debated for some time. Right now the big crunch
in terms of meeting rush hour service needs is available
cars. Beyond that there is a bit of expansion room built
in to the existing river trackage. The current tph levels
are no where near what could be achieved with modernization,
i.e. signal and rolling stock improvements.
Never mind the fact that TA trains use 600 DC volts while LIRR trains use 750 volts. That alone is good enough reason.
What? Install two third rails AND re-do the platforms? Get real.
Been done before. Rockaway Beach line.
Arti
Yeah, wayyyyy before. Won't happen again though.
R44s, and R46s tested on the LIRR...
I understand that 3rd rail voltages used to varry that much anyway, see the page on this site about power distribution.
I was not in favor of the proposal, but only pointing out that small details can be worked out, and are not obstacles.
And to another post, yes, I think that more tracks are needed into Manhattan.
Elias
I think that more tracks are needed into Manhattan.
The existing tracks are mismanaged by either their theoretical capacity or by past performance. Case in point is the Queens Blvd Line.
They currently operate 8 car 75 footers with a train load of 8 x 175 = 1400 passengers. They used to operate 11 car 60 footers with a train load of 11 x 145 = 1595 in the late 1950's. This translates to 14% more capacity per train.
They used to run 34 tph in the late 1950's as opposed to today's figure of 27. This represents a 26% increase.
Combining the two you see that operations in the late 1950's permitted 43% more passengers than today. This translates to nearly 12 more trains per hour on the express tracks. The 63rd St connector will provide only 15 more tph at a cost of over $500 million.
If existing lines were operated to past demonstrated standards, there would be a vast immprovement in rider comfort.
Yes, But...
I'd expect even more growth and traffic to Manhattan....
They were talking of a whole new line: it would need it's own connection to Manhattan, and could not piggy-back on an existing routing.
Elias
The present signal system, without any modification is capable of sustained 40 tph operation. That is roughly 50% more than is currenly run. The worst load factors are around 1.3. No, it's not the Lex. That means no existing lines need be overcrowded.
The question is if the lines are extended to cover areas currently covered by feeder buses will overall subway traffic be increased or displaced. If it is increased are there additional strategies that can be employed? The answer is that 50-55 tph is possible with proven technologies, far more modest expenditures and implemented over a shorter period of time.
>>> They used to run 34 tph in the late 1950's as opposed to today's figure of 27. This represents a 26% increase <<<
Some caution must be exercised in comparing service in the ‘50s to today. At that time there were no strollers or wheelchairs being transported which allowed shorter station dwell times, and also a much less restrictive policy about holding trains with a sick passenger.
Although it may be possible to run trains with shorter headways (more tph) the shorter the headway, the bigger the disruption when any train must stay longer than usual in any station.
Tom
>>Bad idea. This part of Queens actually DOESN'T want subway service. They like the suburban lifestyle. <<
You see, that I disagree with. I live in Eastern Queens, and believe me, plenty of people use the subway. A lot of people drive to the eastern limits of the 7 and the F, not for nothing is parking so difficult in Jamaica Estates. I know for certain that I woukld use a subway here.
:)Andrew
I'd like to see the 7 extended along Roosevelt Ave. and then Northern Blvd. to at least Bell Blvd., while another extension would come off the Queens Blvd line (local tracks) before Kew Gardens going down Union Turnpike to about the same location, Bell Blvd., which would give St. John's University direct access to the subway. Once the 63rd St. tunnel is completed, the V train could continue past 71st-Continental along Union Turnpike, while the R continued to use it as a terminal.
J Lee:
I agree with you that they should extend the #7 line to the Queens Nassau border and I would add a branch to College Point in Queens.
BMTJeff
Building an extension of the #7 line along the route you are proposing would cause more headaches and traffic conjection than the end result of a new service. Bringing up the Train-to-the Plane issue does not serve a purpose here since everyone knows that NYC was way behind in having rail service to its airports. The route to JFK airport was probably the best way to get there as opposed to reviving old LIRR ROWS that are would require more work and some of the land was already sold off to homeowners along the route anyway. The thougt of changing the Port Washington line to a subway line makes no sense at all, since there is too much over crowding as it is on this line. The line is use by suburban commuters and having the Red Birds put on this line would be a nightmare. How much would they charge as a fare to ride to Pt. Washington knowing that you are going to sit on a hard bench for a seat?...can you image that?
As far the neighborhoods that the author mentions, these areas are served well by public and private bus service. A majority of these lines connect with either the LIRR and/or the subway lines.
streetcar man:
I think that having subway service in addition to the bus service would be a boon to eastern Queens which is bereft of subway service. They should laso extend the IND Queens Blvd./Hillside Ave. line to the Nassau border also.
BMTJeff
Why stop at the Nassau / Queens line? Take it all the way to Hempstead, Rejoin with the West Hempstead Branch and loop back to Queens. Have the "F" train run Clockwise and the "E" train run Counterclockwise. Rejoining at Van Wyck. Wher possible elevate or burrow from the surface to eliminate any and all rail crossings.
The "F" would capture the Hempstead Branch, the "E" would run parallel or capture the Locust Manor branch and West Hempstead Branch .
Together they would form a Loop, The F&E Loop. Some thing similar could be invisioned for the "A" and "C" trains utilizing the Far Rockaway Branch and the five towns Branch.
One could go "TO Da Loops"
avid
Wouldn't capacity be the problem? E & F are allready overcrowded with no real way to increase the service.
Arti
Why are you fantasizing that this would ever take place?...using the current subway rolling stock, no one would pay the current suburban fare to ride on a hard seat all the way to the suburbs. Also, can you image the distruption this project would cause along this "proposed" line?" All traffic conjestion along these neighborhoods?..the headaches out weigh the end results here.
No they don't. The fare and service could be limited express service with newer pliable vandal resistant covering. The air trains elevation is doing quite well and disruption is not all that bad. Neither was the disruption when Massapequa and Mass. Park and Seaford were Elevated.
As for the headaches...take asprin.
avid
Did you ever consider the "room" factor, AVID?...Lets be real. In order for this to actually work, you would need more tracks then the ones now to support and increase in service. Right now, that "room factor" is rather limited. If you are asking to use existing tracks, it won't support the increase in traffic. And to integrate the trains/subways together is madness because each system right now has it own "quirks." To put it all under one "roof" would be maddness. Remember when the LIRR had majoring problems with the heavy snow?..if they were in one system, then everyone would suffer the delays.
As for the elevation factor, it is quite easy to build in an open area than in a "tight area." Building over the Van Wyke Expwy. and the Sunrise Hwy. are two open areas where there is the least amount of disruption. All the other street are very tight areas where there would be a great amount disruption in traffic. Hillside Ave can not support either an underground or elevated system. When they built IND, they built it during a time when traffic was way different and neighborhood were not really established yet like they are today.
I am not really sure what you are trying to solve with all these ideas, but better and efficient rail service is needed on the LIRR. There is too many standees and the MUs have to changed soon in order to have less breakdowns.
I am not seeing why you believe subway service would be an economic boom to those neighborhoods when these are not "blighted areas." These are all middle to upper middle class areas. Putting subway service is not going to change their lifestyle or get them anywhere quicker.
The Daily News report on the Thnaksgiving train wreck in 1950 and Caro, in the Power Broker, paint a bleak picture of the LIRR in that era, with antiquated rolling stock caked with dirt, hot in the summer, freezing in winter.
Can any subtalkers who were around then and rode the LIRR bear out those reports?
www.forgotten-ny.com
Since I was born in '53 I only experienced the 50's as a toddler and pre-teen but I remember I loved riding the LIRR in those days. My grandparents used to take us between Flatbush Av & Hempstead (until they discovered the Bee Line betw Hempstead & Jamaica!!) all the time. The Flatbush Av Station had a building terminal with a street level waiting room. If I remember you waited upstairs until the board said your train was loading, just like Penn Station nowadays. There was a traffic light type of board that turned from red to green when it was time to board your train.
Although the pre-M1 electrics were all full length cabs the engineers always let kids up front with them to look out the front window. The engineers always stood up front. Just before Hempstead when it went from a single track from Country Life Press to the multiple tracks at Hempstead the engineer had to stop, get off the train, and manually throw the switch.
/* The engineers always stood up front. */
The '54s had seats in the cabs, but they weren't very comfortable at all. More like a little metal plate to sit on than a seat. The ACMUs have seats in them, but the crews always stand too. I'm guessing the lack of seat use is directly related to the lack of comfort. (When I was in Maine last, I was able to look inside #4137, and I sat in the seat in the cab on it. It's not that great a seat)
The NJT and SEPTA Arrows all have that little fold out plate seat. Most Motor-persons perfer to stand.
>>>>The Flatbush Av Station had a
building terminal with a street level waiting room. If I remember you waited upstairs until the board said your train was loading, just like Penn Station
nowadays.<<<
Yeah, they really treasured that building, didn't they? Let it deteriorate until one day, it had to be razed to stop it from collapsing. We've had a hole in the ground at Atlantic & Flatbush for 25 years and counting.
NY NY, it's a hellofa town...
or used to be.
www.forgotten-ny.com
the pre-M1 electrics were all full length cabs the engineers always let kids up front with them
They really were not full width cabs. They were vesibules that had a control stand in them. They were always used as vestibules even when being used as a cab.
Elias
And those venerable porthole windows too. Seems that all the MP-54 had these, even those running on other railroads. Some cars even had round windows in their storm doors and side doors too (i.e. #4137 ex.1137, among others) like the 2800-series diesel coaches (UGH) had.
wayne
All the P54/MP54 types on the LIRR and PRR had porthole windows in the ends. Even though LIRR sealed over the end windows in most of the loco-hauled/m.u.trailer cars, they did have them when they were built. On some of them, they were really cheap and just painted the glass grey -- saw quite a few broken ones in the 1960's.
The round windows in the side doors and storm doors were added to those cars when they went through a GOH in the 1950's, so they would match the MP72 cars delivered in 1955-1956.
Pacific Electric also had larger porthole windows in the ends of their "Blimp" cars -- but its my understanding those were not built for PE but rather another operation in northern California.
All the P54/MP54 types on the LIRR and PRR had porthole windows in the ends.
Cars with square end windows ran on the PRSL Camden to Atlantic City electrified route. Some were marked "Pennsylvania-Reading Seashore Lines" and some were marked "Pennsylvania". Were these not MP-54's?
The square windowed units were 1906 wooden interurban cars that were origionally bought for the line. Some of these units recieved steel ends with the owl eye windows, but they retained a large wooden storm door. Around 1915 the WJ&S pruchased 12-24 additional MP-54(DC) units and aside from the storm door they have a much larger headlamp assembly. After the 1948 PUC wooden the MP-45 were the only cars allowed to carry on service untill 1949 when they were replaced by 5(10?) Baldwin DRS-1500's (6000-6004) what were paid for in part by the state because of the PUC ban of the wooden cars. The DRS-1500's were meant for Woodbury-Millville service, but were quickly used elsewhere and PRR G-5's filled in on the route.
I have a photo in my Train Wrecks book that shows car #3704 being fished out of the drink near Atlantic City NJ - it is dated Oct. 28, 1906. It's a long car with a railroad roof an a single headlight, there is a little housing on the roof at the car center. They had a drawbridge accident there and 57 people drowned. I guess this is one of the wooden interurban cars described. The photo didn't show much damage to the car; I guess it landed upright and in shallow water. Too bad there was such a loss of life.
wayne
3 cars went in the drink and only one was completely sumberged. That's where most of the 57 died. The problem was that the locking mechanisms were faulty. The bridge tender was charged with manshaughter, but in the investigation they found the railroad was to blame and it cost them a pretty penny to settle the case. The WJ&S had rushed things a bit to complete the line from Newfield to AC.
Porthole windows must've been in vogue in the late 40's - early 50's. The R11 and R15 had them on the side and front storm doors. Luckily, sanity prevailed and they only showed up on the storm doors of the R16 and R17.
The 4 porthole door windows on the R11 and R15 looked horrible, IMHO.
I read this article and I was shocked to find out that such a horrible rail accident took place right in my back yard. The death toll was second only to Malbone St. I was equally shocked to read that the LIRR had no trip-cock brake system employed on it's line, and that the train in question tried to stop at a red light, but it's brakes malfunctioned. Something like this might've been expected at the turn of the century, but not in the modern era of the 1950's.
BTW, The Pennslvania RR used the exact same excuse the BRT used after the Malbone St. wreck to explain why it happened: the inability to get the transit board to approve offare hikes to pay for maintenance and new equipment. Thanks, Mayor Hylan. Not only has your legacy helped destroy many mass transit lines within the city, but it might have indirectly killed people.
I was equally shocked to read that the LIRR had no trip-cock brake system employed on it's line, and that the train in question tried to stop at a red light, but it's brakes malfunctioned.
If the brakes malfunctioned a trip arm would not have helped. Furthermore trip arms are a hinderance on real railroads because passing red signals is a standard proceedure and even at home signals the blocks are too long to to have the required multiple reds behind a train in trip arm country. The LIAR had and has something much better in the form of cab signal based ATC.
I understand different kinds of rail lines work better with different signal systems. But what shocked me was that the LIRR had NOTHING, not a single system to stop a train automatically if another train is blocking the path ahead. How can you run a commuter rail line at 60-70 MPH with absolutley no safety precautions?
You can run a commuter line at 79 mph without any automatic stop systems. However keep in mind that Engineers have much more training than T/O's and if one ever gos past a Stop (and Stay) signal they'll be fired without question. Furthermore railroads are speed signaled so an LIAR engineer wouldn't blow through a Stop signal at linespeed without mutiple intentional disregarsions of the operating rules. Even now an engineer can pass any Stop signal at a speed below 15 mph because the most restrictive aspect the cab signal system has is Restricting.
disregarsions
Nice word!
SubTalkers are currently luxuriating in a plethora of extraneous locution.
>>>without mutiple intentional DISREGARSIONS of the
operating rules. >>>
Dubya, shouldn't you be campaigning in California?....
www.forgotten-ny.com
Better hope the Bush 2000 campaign bus has a designated driver ...
What, there was no other word that could adequately convey my point.
Disregardings is a real word, and it doesn't take a lot of strategery to use it.
There *are* safety precautions though not on all lines, in the form of ATC. If the engineer disregardsa signal, his train *will* be stopped.
He must acknolwedge every aspect change with a response, or the train will shutdown.
Elias
Only a restrictive aspect change. Approach to Clear will not require an acknowledgement. What does the "whistle" sound like in an LIAR or Metro North cab. SEPTA's acknowledger makes a high dee-doo-dee-doo-dee-doo sound.
Very simple, that's how it is done on MOST railroads. There are trackside signals. Tha't it. No tripcocks, no ASC, no ATC. Engineer somehow misses a signal and rear ends a train ahead.
It just happened in Arizona on the BNSF.
The Richmond Hill accident occurred in the evening darkness, at about 6:30PM. After reading these numerous posts, explanations and technical information, I can easily see how Mr. Pokorny could have collided with the Hempstead train - there was absolutely nothing there to prevent him from doing so except for himself!
wayne
One thing that should be added too, is that the rear-end markers in those days were NOT the larger, brighter ones we are used to nowadays. In that era, they had a rear-end marker light that was small -- about 1-1/2" in diameter, and put out about as much light as a two-cell flashlight.
It was the Richmond Hill wreck that got the New York State Legislature to pass a law requiring all passenger trains within the state to have two rear end marker lamps capable of being visible from 3,000 feet away under normal conditons.
Which is absolutley shocking considering the relatively slower subway system had systems to do exactly that automatically in 1904!
Speed has nothing to do with it. Transit drivers operate their train like they would a bus or a car with quick accelerations. The signals had no attached speed restrictions and the Drivers could/can not be trusted to drive their trains under control. Therefore stop signals and permenant speed restrictions must be enforced with trip arms. Engineers recieve a much higher degree of training and must be federally certified. With their level of professionalism they do not need trip arms, signal indications and speed limit signs are sufficient.
There is no need for multiple reds. A single red with a space before the start of its block will provide the train with space to stop.
You need to have an extra track circut so that the trip arm will not trip the other cars after the lead car has passed. Redundant track circuts and overlaps are a waste of money and should be avoided. A strict speed signaling system serves the same purpose.
But with ASC, the train is allowed to go 30 in the block before the
red. As soon as it passes into the block with the red signal, it will
have to stop, but by then it would be too late to avoid hitting a
train which is 5 feet in front of the block boundary.
Anyway, ASC should be used for anything faster than 30mph.
With NORAC cab signals the 30 speed is given as an Approach indication and the Engineer must be prepared to stop at the end of the block not to mention that the rear of trains have a red light. Only at interlockings is there a cab signal change point some 1500 feet before the home signal. If the home signal is at STOP the train will recieve a restricting aspect in time to not run into the interlocking. Metro-North, the Conrail Boston Line, Amtrak NEC from PORTAL to A and the Conrail Morrisville line all use cab signals w/o wayside signals or ABS block overlaps and as far as I know there has never been a bad accident. Engineers take "prepared to stop" very seriously because if they don't they will almost certainly get into an accident. Furthermore engineers must have very good route knowledge and freight train engineers are expected to run at linespeed even in 0 visibility fog.
BTW the FRA permits 60mph on unsignaled lines. To require ATC for anything over 30 would be insane. What is also insane is the UK allowinf trains to run at 140mph without any type of cab signal.
The LIRR declared bankruptcy in 1949!
The PRR refused to be responsible for the LIRR indebtedness!
In 1950 the LIRR, BMT and IRT were all using older equipment. The IND did have the R-10's which were fairly new!
In 1950, the newest electric equipment was the 1930 model MP-54A1, one of which was the lead motor of the ill-fated Babylon train No.174. Most of the other stuff was as old as 1910 and as recent as 1926.
Please correct me if I am wrong on this one.
wayne
No, the newest equipment on the LIRR at the time of the Richmond Hill wreck were the so-called double-deckers.
Car 200 (class T62) was built 1932.
Car 201 (class T70) was built 1934.
Car 1347 (class MP70T) was built 1947.
Cars 1337-1346 (MP70A) were built 1947.
Cars 1287-1336 (MP70B) were built 1948.
The first three were built as trailer cars, 1347 was a motorized trailer.
On the MP70A/B cars, they were all built as contol motors. In the 1950's rebuilding of the LIRR fleet, about 1/3 of them were converted to motorized trailers -- so they became MP70Ac, MP70Bc [control motors] and MP70AT, MP70BT [motorized trailers].
Oh NO! I forgot about the "Dicketydackers" (that's what I called them as a little kid)! - I was referring to the MP54 class.
Didn't they stick a single Double Decker in the middle of a consist of other cars (this in the 1960s)?
Thank you for reminding me... the Double Deckers were beasts - one of the most uncomfortable cars I ever rode in. Squeeezed into a tiny seat, quite claustrophobic on the lower level.
wayne
Ahh it's Fall and for the 2nd year in a row there is a slow order on A2 and A4 tracks (Manhattan Bound) of the Brighton Line (D/Q). On A4 (Express) the order starts in the middle of Ave H. On A2 (Local) it starts as you leave Ave H, assuming this is because the local is stopping there >G<.
Last year someone posted that this slow order was because of the downgrade into Newkirk Ave and the excess leaves on the track that effects braking.
This year I am happy to report that SO FAR trains are reducing speed but not to the 5 MPH crawl we had last year. I would say they are doing 10 to 15 MPH (towards the high end) by feel. Still this does hamper that EXPRESS fell of the Q from the Highway to Newkirk. I guess the Gel Train couldn't keep up with the amount of leaves. I do not believe there have been any over shoots this year and that the order was put in place as prevention.
Our slant R-40 Q had a nice express run down the Brighton last Thursday.
I haven't seen any temporary signs that limit speed there. It depends on the T/O. The 7:50 AM T/O slows down at Avenue H. The 7:44 AM doesn't. Just for clarifiactions, there were no timers built into that area last year as people posted. Don't assume anything. Some of these T/Os are crappy too. Back in the summer, they coasted 600' feet before even reaching the station. Let's hope the new picks bring us some daring train operators.
running on...
In the days of the new Brightliners, before Chrystie, the Q and M trains did everything but fly down that section. They all seemed to be able to stop strongly and smoothly at Newkirk, too, winter, summer, spring, and fall.
Don't give me this daring and some are crappy train operators nonsense just so you can get your jollies! They have to operate their trains safely. They must have their trains under control at all times. They have families to support. To you it's railfanning, to them it's making a living. For guys like me, it's both! There are extra supervisors out there watching and the guy who runs out of a station does not have his train under control. It very well could be the last time he ever operates a train.
Bill,
With all due respect, I think you're missing the point here. I've been riding the B line for 15 years. By now, I know where the trains are supposed to slow down. There are too many drivers slamming on the brakes for no reason at all. There are slight curves with no speed restrictions, that some drivers slam on the brakes for. There are other curves with 30 MPH limits, and they do 15 or 10, while others do 40. If you want specific exmples, just let me know.
Also, It is less in the interest of railfanning, and more in the interest in getting where you want to go. Like work. It is an extreme dis-service to customers, who are paying for reliable service.
JDL
Please provide the specific examples JDL. I'm very interested and maybe I can answer your question as to why T/O's use the brake when you think they shouldn't.
Oh they are there, brown board with painted yellow balls on them. Look at A2 signal leaving Ave H. On A4 it is towards the middle of Ave H.
Hello everybody, Im an English university student studying Transport Planning at Oxford University. I came accross this site while seeking information on how how the NYC Subway is funded. This is inlight of Bob Kiley being apointed to sort out the problems that London Underground is experiancing. Most of you will know who he is, but in case you dont, he was the guy who got NYC subway back on track, sorry about the punn.
I am therefore interested in the details of how the subway is funded and by who, and also if the funding methods have changed post and prior to Bob Kileys appointment and departure.
Accounts etc are all of interest.
Im not fully up to speed on how this site works, but I hope this message gets posted and through one method or another I manage to retrieve anything you can tell me personally, or where you recomend that I find relevant information.
Thanks very much,
Tim Foxall.
Have you taken a look at the Annual Reports posted on the MTA's official web site? (www.mta.nyc.ny.us)
-Dave
You might also look at the U.S. Department of Transportation, Federal Transit Administration website.
Basically, all transit in the United States has become a "social service," maintained for those without cars. Since most people drive and Americans are spread out in suburbs, there is not enough demand (especially off peak) for financially independent service, as in Brittain. The subways cover about 80 to 100 percent of their operating costs, but none of their capital costs. The buses -- and most other transit systems -- cover far less. The rest is made up for by dedicated taxes and other public funding.
Looked at another way, however, while drivers pay for to purchase, maintain, and operate their own automobiles, taxes pay for the streets they drive on. If you think of the cost of the right of way (ie. Railtrack in Brittain) as a public responsibility like streets and sidewalks, then I believe the New York City subways and some other rail systems would break even on an "auto-equivalent" basis.
Tim, A note about the replys posted already. You've already heard from our site host and resident debator, so your off to a realy good start. I notice that your e-mail address is available, so some may want to talk to you one-on-one. Did you see the post about the History Channel (over here in the States) special on the London Underground. We now know alot more about your system.
BTW, Cubic Corp. has a big project over there with turnstiles, ticket machines, etc. They are also the company doing it here (NYC, Washington D.C., Chicago, Houston, and many others).
Anyhow, welcome !
P.S. We have another Tim from over there, but he's in Sweden. He's also a trolley operator there.
Mr t__:^)
Here's a link to the article on NY1.COM
A twelve year old boy tried to sell me a $100 Metrocard for $5 at 96th St/Carnegie Hill (6, BTW, I've taken to giving neighborhood names to stations in order to make them more distinguishable).
Well, now that the TA has discovered the glitch AFTER some criminal types did, The useful Trade In Cards feature has been removed.
I intend to send the TA a letter of grievances (read: angry hate mail... just kidding).
I would speculate that the high school students made use of a feature that was designed into the MVM - probably at the TA's request.
The machine has to have a means to eject cards that may become stuck. Manual controls would most likely be placed on the inside of the machine. However, the TA appears to want to limit access to the MVM's inside to guard against the possibility of Luddite sabotage.
An alternative to opening the machine would be to have the capability of providing some limited manual control from the outside. Provision was made for being able to enter this maintenance mode by using the existing customer hardware, rather than requiring some additional hardware like a keypad. I'm sure some bean counters figured out how many million dollars the TA would save by not requiring such hardware.
My guess is that the students watched the MVM repair and refill crews at work and observed the 'secret' of entering the maintenance mode.
The other surprising note is that it will take several days to individually reprogram all 1800 machines. Are they implying that on a networked system they have no way of downloading a new program?
The other surprising note is that it will take several days to individually reprogram all 1800 machines. Are they implying that on a networked system they have no way of downloading a new program?
Will they bring back trade-ins?
Are they implying that on a networked system they have no way of downloading a new program?
It's quite possible that this is in the bios code, which on an Intel processor requires a reboot of the machine from an external drive (floppy or CD) to install. Our support folks at the office just upgraded the bios on my Toshiba laptop and had to boot the machine from the floppy to do it. (And, as has been typical of every "upgrade" they've performed on the machine, it's screwed it up even more.)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
It's quite possible that this is in the bios code, which on an Intel processor requires a reboot of the machine from an external drive (floppy or CD) to install.
It is possible that this was a bios related problem but not likely. Moreover, it is not difficult to design a system that would permit remote bios upgrades.
11/04/2000
It seems that they are modifying the MVM's on the BMT Broadway (Manhattan)line. Since I'm looking for the Kevin Mawae (NY Jets) card to complete my collection, I tried to trade in a "plain jane" card a see if the NY Jets card was being dispensed from the MVM. NO GO !
When you select "trade in card" the next screen asks "which card do you want" ? Regular Metrocard or Unlimited ride Metrocard. MVM's in Penn Station (1,2,3,9) haven't been changed yet.
Bill "Newkirk"
What most likely is being done is the machines are recieving the new program (I doubt it's a hardware thing), and need to be rebooted for that code to take effect. Givin what happened to the machines recently, they're probably taking it very carefully.
-Hank
OK, maybe there's a code to reject a card, etc. BUT i'm sure there no code to get the machine to spit out a new card with money on it.
Also, unless someone knows differently, I don't think there's a computer inside that box. I suspect it's a dumb terminal (am I dating myself ?).
Mr t__:^)
No, there is a fully functional computer running Windows NT 4.0 inside the MVM.
Next time I have a reason to talk to the mfg. I'll have to ask why they made the MVMs stand alone with PCs inside.
Mr t__:^)
They don't make dumb terminals anymore.
Even with remote control, the preferred way of doing things is to have a self working system. If the server collapses, the other computers will still work.
That's one of the main principles behind the Internet, a large number of systems have to go down before it becomes a true problem.
I have 3270 Emulation at this depot, but the computer CAN stand alone if/when the mainframe looses contact/shuts down for maint.
I can also relate to some extent at what happened to the MVMs, but it's probally not a good idea for me to provide too much detail.
I'm just surprised that the MVMs aren't dumber, i.e. a "depot" or "station" computer has a broader mission & folks assigned to keep track of if it's working ... a MVM must be supervised by remote control. So what happens when it goes down or they notice something funny going on ... a swat team speeds to the location ? Interesting since the Station Agent isn't permitted to touch it, well maybe they can clean the glass or sweep around it.
The LIRR is going the same way, i.e. cutting back agent hours leaving the traveling public with a machine that can't answer questions.
(Opps .... in the subways the agents will still be around somewhere & be sent to Charm School so they are excelent at providing SERVICE).
Mr t__:^)
The LIRR is going the same way, i.e. cutting back agent hours leaving the traveling public with a machine that can't answer questions.
Nothing prevents the installation of automatic route finder machines. Nothing stops them from installing the software into MVMs.
Why do you think that computers have to be dumber? What makes you think a computer that can stand alone has to be supervised in person?
[Nothing stops them from ... installation of automatic route finder machines.]
I can think of two: Money & desire to provide SERVICE
[Nothing stops them from ... having lots of stand alone computers]
How about, the more individual processors, the more things that can go wrong, be messed with (at lightly used stations, where there is hardly ever anyone around ... yes they can install cameras).
How about ... oh oh there's a computer inside, lets break in and steal it ?
It just occurs to me that they are asking for trouble having all those machines out there with lots of moving parts that can break or be tampered with ... RAM, hard drive, floppy, modem, etc., etc.
My experience with the processor in the farebox is that it likes to "hiccup" for no good reason, then works fine again (I also need to work with the TA on these because we wouldn't want to benifit financially from the hiccup now would we). Quess what happens if the MVM take a power hit or brown out to it's processor ... does each one have a UPS ? What if someone gets realy mad at it & bangs it in just the right spot ... hiccup. How about a flood underground, or a bad storm outside ... computer realy like water & cold you know (last January the fareboxes go the chills one day).
Maybe I'm talking too much here, but I would suggest that the Station Agent or someone be able to monitior these things on a multi part screen somewhere, if they aren't even doing that we are going to have more incidents like the one that started this thread ! Oh oh that would require STAFF at or close to the station, bummer.
Disclaimer: I don't work for the MTA, TA or nycDOT & am speaking for myself not my employeer.
Mr t__:^)
We do monitor the MVMs. Many are within sight of the booth. ALl MVMs are interfaced with the computer (terminal) in the booth. We'll hear a beep from the computer and a message will appear on the lower right corner of the screen alerting us to a problem. If the machines are opened, either by revenue or any other way the terminal in our booth will beep and let us know the door is open. (Same for turnstiles). When a maintainer works on the MVM they sign on and that too is logged in our terminal (and at Jay Street.)
We have had cases of MVM vandalism and we do call the police and in most cases the suspect flees the station before the police arrive.
Cameras will do no good- I worked one station with an underpass which is monitored by CCTV (Closed Circuit TV) and one night my screens went white. Someone spray painted the cameras-one with white paint the other with black. It took 3 hours before a maintainer came to clean the cameras. If the station had been unattended the MVM could have been vandalized while awaiting a maintainer.
They don't make dumb terminals anymore.
Actually, they do, although they aren't incredibly popular any more. Sun Microsystems has at least three "second heads" in its line - we use them in our workcenters - and I suspect that there are other manufacturers out there who make them as well.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Sure, you can still buy brand-new VT100 compatible dumb terminals.
Sun's "2nd head" offering is just another keyboard and video
port, not really a dumb terminal in the classic, TTY sense.
But in this context I think the poster, in using the phrase
"dumb terminal", did not mean one of those, but rather was discussing
the merits of a centralized vs distributed processing system
for metrocard and ezpass.
EZ Pass is the same 1 standalone for each entrance.
Arti
Here again this doesn't seem to make much since. I would have thought each BRIDGE would have a network of dumb terminals networked to a server that was connected to the mainframe. I can't believe that each booth/lane has it's own connection directly to the mainframe !
Has the technology changed all that much since I was part of it, i.e. the more individual users you have hanging off the mainframe, the slower the response time. So, guess what, the more E-Z-Pass spreads to more and more bridges, roads, etc. the more time you'll be spending there waiting for a green light. The MAN will become faster then the computer again ... I can't wait.
Mr t__:^)
Here again this doesn't seem to make much since. I would have thought each BRIDGE would have a network of dumb terminals networked to a server that was connected to the mainframe. I can't believe that each booth/lane has it's own connection directly to the mainframe !
Has the technology changed all that much since I was part of it, i.e. the more individual users you have hanging off the mainframe, the slower the response time. So, guess what, the more E-Z-Pass spreads to more and more bridges, roads, etc. the more time you'll be spending there waiting for a green light. The MAN will become faster then the computer again ... I can't wait.
INCORRECT
By having smart terminals, they can work on their own and thus prevent such things, so that eventually the dumb tolltakers (it doesn't take a brainiac to count money and press a button) will be replaced with license plate photography and EZ Pass only crossings (ex: Throgs Neck can have tolltakers, Triborough and Whitestone would not).
BTW, do you even know the difference between since and sense? I'm sorry, but these are the kinds of repeated spelling errors that DEMAND NOTICE. The two words aren't even homonyms!
[BTW, do you even know the difference between since and sense? I'm sorry, but these are the kinds of repeated spelling errors that DEMAND NOTICE. The two words aren't even homonyms!]
Eye due the best eye can, four a guy form the country, sorry.
Mr t__:^)
lol
You've got it backwards. The LESS dependant on the server a terminal is, the FASTER the response time. If EZPass used dumb terminals, the failure of the server would knock out EZPass for the entire plaza. With networked 'smart' terminals, any one of the terminals can go down, as could the server; but since the terminals can function independantly of the server, it would require a failure of both the server and all the terminals to knock out the plaza.
-Hank
Here is what they tell us:
Each station has a "Computer" located in a cabinet next to one of the turnstiles. They call it the Station Controller(SC). It is interfaced with the terminal in the boot (the BT or Booth Terminal). It is in turn communicating with Jay Street and sends/receives data from there. In stations with more than one booth there is still only one Station Controller and the other control areas communicate with the one SC.
If the SC goes down, so will the BT in the booth. The BT also has a file handler(FHU) and if it goes down our BT will be out but MVMs, turnstiles will still work (In either case it is a mandatory booth audit for us.)
If the SC goes down even turnstiles may refuse tokens and cards in which case we'd call supervision for permission to use the Non Revenue Fare Box (NRFB) which is the tall black object chained near the turnstiles. Those are emptied by Revenue- we dont have keys for those.
)That too is a mandatory booth audit).
I can not be more specific than this.
About the same at the "depots", i.e. we have a DC (Depot Computer) that controls the probe stations & printer. The DC can act independently of the mainframe, but if the DC goes down your only recourse is a PDP (Laptop that has limited storage & is very slow).
There are no MVMs or other retail capability on the DCs, so we don't have that headache (our retail business is by phone or mail). The only problem this presents is if we find a MC & have a customer who claims it's his/hers, we have no where to check it out without a 1.50 service charge (cost to dip it & see what happens). This is why I sometimes visit Main Street at lunch to use the "reader" there.
Mr t__:^)
Would it make sense to have a reader at each of the "privates" depots, in as much as Metrocards are accepted by "privates" fareboxes?
We all have a need to some extent for a Reader, but nycDOT decided it wasn't enough to justify the cost of 7 or 8 of them.
BTW, If the customer knows what kind of card they had, and about how much value or time was left on it we can (and do) call a number at the TA & have them scan the s/n in the system. That takes 24 hours, so I only need to go to Main Street if the customer is very excited at loosing the card in the AM and just has to have it back that day. Since I am going out to lunch anyway, it's no biggy for me so long as it doesn't happen every day.
Mr t__:^)
It's too bad that they can't interface a telephone VRU (Voice response unit) so that you can check balances.
That is precisely why WE are needed. It was station agents that alerted police to several people attempting to defraud the system.
Cameras, recordings and live police surveillance (that means actual cops on site) can replace that need.
seems to work for PATH
Peace,
ANDEE
There'a another way of looking at it: how much would the TA
lose per year to fraud, versus how much it costs to employ
rr clerks. Same logic by which the credit card companies allow
millions a year in fraud: the cost of doing business.
Well, that time of year has come again. Today is the last day for the RiverBus season.
The Wendella RiverBus is a commuter service in Chicago which operates on the Chicago River from Madison St (Union Sta and Ogilvie Transportation Ctr, terminals for many of the Metra rail lines) and North Michigan Ave.
Unfortunately, given Chicago's weather, it only runs April to October (acutally Nov. 3 this year). I guess I'll have to put up with the CTA bus or a long walk until April.
-- Ed Sachs
At 6:34 AM on Sunday November 3, 1963, PCC 7407 (now preserved at the Baltimore Streetcar Museum) pulled into Irvington Carhouse and closed out the 104 year history of streetcars in Baltimore.
For about 30 years at least! :) [Excluding BSM]
As of 3pm:
Salaam Allah on the "A" line to Far Rockaway.
PATH is extending the rush hour by adding more service on the end of the AM and PM rush-great!
They are also upasetting alot of people by canceling their 3 am express trains.
I recall the express trains were added because of crowding.
Why on earth would anyone need an express train at 3am?
"Why on earth would anyone need an express train at 3am?"
New Jerseyites returning from an evening on the town in Manhattan? What's the closing time for bars in NYC? (Here in Chicago, most liquor licenses require a 2am closing, but some places pay the extra money and go through the extra hoops to get a coveted 4am license.)
Remember that PATH isn't *just* used by the 9-to-5ers to get to and from jobs in Manhattan. :)
But does NJT even run at 3am for people to make a connection?
"But does NJT even run at 3am for people to make a connection?"
Probably not. But there must be *some* link to PATH at night because PATH runs 24hours, IIRC. What's the night bus service in New Jersey like? Is there any park-and-ride on or near the PATH system?
I think the original poster was referring to 3 trains that run express from Newark to the WTC during the A.M. rush hour -- not express trains at 3 A.M.
To answer the questions you've posed, though...
Most (if not all) NJT bus lines stop running overnight. The last runs to leave PABT are at about 1 AM, local lines vary.
NJT train service does not operate overnight, though there is a very early Trenton to NYC run (leaving Trenton before 4 AM I believe).
PATH runs 24/7, but overnight serves really only for the residents of Jersey City, Newark and Hoboken. There are no connecting services that I know of.
Thanks Charles! Before this change there were three PATh trains that ran express from Newark to WTC at arou8nd 730, 8 and 830 AM- the exact times varying with NJT changes.
Why on earth would anyone need an express train at 3am?
New Jerseyites returning from an evening on the town in Manhattan? What's the closing time for bars in NYC? (Here in Chicago, most liquor licenses require a 2am closing, but some places pay the extra money and go through the extra hoops to get a coveted 4am license.)
4am. Actually, PATH quite likely gets many bar patrons travelling in the opposite direction, Hoboken being well-known for its nightife.
"Last Call" in NYC is 4am.
Well today I did run the R142A on its first day back in service. The train ran on its old testing schedule. I ran it for the 8:08 and the 12:36 out of Pelham. The car Numbers where 7261-7270.
More later!
The R-142 was in service on the 2 line yesterday. It was the set with the Yankees wrap on the front.
I have to believe that the other two 142 sets should be available for service. The testing phase is officially over?
-Stef
Oh Goody!!!!!!!!!! let send those extra R36s back home to the 7 line after all the 7 line will be having more frequent Local/Exp service Staring Monday. EXP will run from 6 00 AM? to 10 00 PM more local service from 5 00AM to 11 00PM.
I hate to disappoint you, but I really don't think that's going to happen. Don't you think it's possible for management to have the exisiting fleet out an extra hour in the day rather than putting them away in the yard for the night?
-Stef
Just because there is additional express service doesn't mean additonal trainsets are required. If you need the same number of peak rush hour trains as previously. then the additional trains required in the non rush simply means that you lay up less trains after the rush/fewer put ins for the rush. The existing cars simply get additional mileage.
Unionport Yard is getting empty.... You should have 7211-40 and 7261-70 as of now. It appears 7241-50 are ready for service leaving only 7251-60, as the cars not available for service, just because they haven't been prepared. It makes me kind of wonder if we're going to have an equipment shift at Westchester Yard. As more 142As become available, we'll have to find a place to store mothballed Redbirds.
Did you know that Bombardier sent 5 more 142s? They came up on Wednsday Night. 6331-35 should be on 13 Track at the East, if I heard the radio transmissions correctly.
-Stef
Dave,
I take that back. 7221-30 are still being tested and had signs set for the 2 this evening as it made simulated stops along that line. 7241-50 should be over at Westchester Yard, no?
-Stef
Thanks Stef,
I did see another set of R142A's today but did not get those car numbers. But 7261-7270 are in service I had the train for 3 trips. The T.S.S and R.C.I where only on the train for the AM Rush Hour but I was alone most of the day with the R142A. Lots of people where taken pictures of the train.
As for the story of when more R142A's are going in service. A T.S.S told me one should be going in service every week. I do not know whats going on with the redbirds as of now but I will keep subtalk updated on it.
Also it sounds like that 15 day road test will not happen. The test was done with the train not in service.
Glad to be of assistance. Keep your eyes and ears open for developments at Westchester Yard. The TA may be ready to take more 142As from Yonkers and fill up Unionport Yard all over again.
-Stef
How can you get the same train for all 3 trips? Did they hold the train in the pocket for you during your lunch & time in between trips?
I have the same train for the 1st and 2nd trip. After the first trip I have about 2 Hours and 20 Minutes at Pelham and get the same train back for the 2nd trip. On the last trip I take the train behind it but because the T/O was not qualified to run the train the R142A was held for an extra 8 minutes for my run.
I had no problems with the train.
If they have anymore troubles on the Jerome lay-up track, they may have to keep the Redbirds around to replace the R-62s :-)
Perhaps, but it seems unlikely. With these 142 Additions, they'll start retiring equipment as planned. You can replace those 62s with a train of 62As, I'm sure. The management isn't going to send every last 62A from the 3 and 6 over are they? It would equate to more than 500 cars!
-Stef
To be serious, I'm sure at best the accident will mean one additional 10-car trainset of Redbirds would be mothballed or used for rush-hour service instead of being scrapped as planned.
Of course, I still think with the MBDF of the R-33/36WFs being No. 2 in the system behind Train Dude's R-68 Concourse fleet, they should just keep that group of trains together as is until they rebuild the Corona shop and modify Coney Island to handle the R-142 supplimental order or the R-160 (or whatever) order comes next.
Unless the body rot threatens the structural integrity of any of those cars in a collision, dumping a fleet that's more reliable right now than all but one other seems silly. Retire the rustiest Flushing Redbirds, move the best few `birds from the mainline over to Corona, put the R-142/142As primarily on the 2, 5 and 6 lines and have the R-62/62A primarily on the 1, 3 and 4 lines.
The TA never seems to think straight when new equipment arrives. They just want to get rid of the old stuff regardless of what shape it's in. Look at the Triplexes and the rebuilt R-10s and R-30s. All of those classes could have been kept longer, especially the Triplexes. I saw a number of R-33s during my visit two weeks ago which still looked excellent, with little or no corrosion.
when were the r16s retired?
1987. I understand they were ordered out of service.
> Of course, I still think with the MBDF of the R-33/36WFs being
> No. 2 in the system behind Train Dude's R-68 Concourse fleet,
> they should just keep that group of trains together as is . . .
But aren't those the ones with cars without air conditioning?
- Lyle Goldman
The R-33WFs are, but unless you strap some of the R-62 singles from the No. 3 line to them, you'd have to drop down to 10-car trains if you eliminated the singles and kept the ACed R-36WFs in service.
It just depends on priorities. I think breaking up the second-most reliable fleet in the system is silly, but if the goal is a 100 percent air-conditioned system, then they'll have to move the Corona fleet to the main line and get the R-62s out there.
The Chicago Transit Authority has taken a first step toward acquiring real estate for the proposed two-mile extension of the Orange Line from its present terminal at Midway Airport to Ford City. For the full story, see the November 2 news item on the History of the Chicago "L" site, at:
http://www.chicago-l.org/news.html
--
Alan Follett
Hercules, CA
This is encouraging that the city is trying to aquire the land.
I don't think that article said that the CTA is really involved, yet, though.
Unfortunately, it takes such a long time to get anything done with the CTA, we might as well forget about this and talk about it in another 10 years.
The CTA has aquired the money for the Douglas and Ravenswood projects, but this is only about 1/2 of what they need to fully upgrage the system to what they consider a good running condition. They want the system to be up to a good running condition before they consider any extensions. The good news is that they do plan to start all of these projects necessary to bring the system up good condition by or in the 2005 budget. This means that 2006 will probably be the first year for them to even consider any new projects. I believe they will aquire the other half of the money through bonds, probably similar to the transportation bond act you guys have been talking about.
I am optomistic after they aquired the money for the Douglas and Ravenswood projects that they will be able to start these other projects by the end of 2005.
BJ
PS: A lot of work will still be done on the exsisting system over the next five years or so. This sounds like it will be very interesting and create a much different CTA rail system when it is all completed.
about an hour ago i spoke with bob... he is in town to attend a reunion for graduates of james madison high school celebrating the school's 75th anniversary... i was suppose to meet him early in the day to attend an open house at the school... he called to tell me that he got the flu bug and was going to rest up for the dinner tomorrow night... i won't be attending the dinner, as i received a check for $5000 from the alumni association in return for my promise not to attend and bring everyone down with my negativity...
now for the real reason i am posting this...
BOB... IF YOU READ THIS, CALL ME BACK... I HAVE AN OFFER THAT YOU MAY FIND HARD TO REFUSE...
[....he is in town to attend a reunion for graduates of james madison high school celebrating the school's 75th anniversary...]
Look out, Paul, Andrew "Dice" Clay ("I'm Over Here Now") might be there to bust your chops.
BMTman
Tell BMT Bob to get me my Mets World Series shirt. We get shirts for each other when we get into town. Tell him I still hate the Yankees and we're going to get A-Rod for the Mets and get even with the Bronx Bombers next year.
Mr. Steinbrenner will apply more of the cement that holds the ***AWESOME***Y*A*N*K*E*E*S*** Together $$$MONEY$$$??? NO!!! This is a professional sport , all the owners have $$$MONEY$$$, But Mr. Steinbrenner is committed to owning the best team for all time. The ***AWESOME***Y*A*N*K*E*E*S*** know that their jobs are secure and that if they need training,equipment,or coaching, they will get the best and that Mr. Steinbrenner is committed to extending the greatest legend in all of baseball, the historical supremacy of the ***AWESOME***Y*A*N*K*E*E*S*** over the last 100 years into the new millenium. It's about COMMITMENT!
Sorry, Fred, I never got to meet up with Bob. My weekend had a full plate -- including mainline tie replacement up at Branford Electric Railway (with the help of Thurston, Lou, Stef, and some guests).
I heard that Bob had the flu and I'm not even sure he met up with heypaul for their "class" reunion.
BMTman
Sorry to hear that about Bob. I will E-Mail him tonight to see if he is ok. Bob and I bave become great buddies on tbis site, as you probably know, and we love giving each other holy hell over the Mets vs the Yankees, Republicans vs Democrats, and New York vs California. I had a bad vacation this summer because I felt under the weather, and I hate to think Bob's homecoming was spoiled because of illness. BTW, those trips you guys have are easier for you since you all live in the east. However, when I retire in June I plan on taking a few trips a year to be a part of that. It sounds like great fun.
[Tell BMT Bob to get me my Mets World Series shirt.]
Sorry Bob but they are scarer then hens teeth. Best you can hope for is Mets/Yankee T-shirt, and even they are going going gone.
Mr t__:^)
Now that I have returned to the internet after 2 weeks with no modem in my household, I have a few things to report:
-There have been a good number of operating problems on the Broad Street Subway this past October. On one day, there was a stalled train on track 4 (northbound local) one morning, causing some reroutes, on the day of a more major west philly problem (I don't know what). On Tuesday, Halloween, there were two major problems in the morning. One was a malfunctioning at Erie tower, controlling all of the switches in crossovers north of the Erie Station. Nothing could get by in all direction, (either north or south) for some time. When they finally got the problem fixed, which was necessary by clamping the switches down, they got the switches on the northbound local track going before those on the express track. This angered my train operator, who runs the express. Yet it is somewhat understandable, because there is only 1 facing point and 1 trailing point north of Erie on the local track, as opposed to 2 facing and one trailing on the express, which means 1 more point to clamp down. I hear there was also a major problem on the Ridge Spur that day.
I rode the Frankford el today. All stations are finished except for a crossover at Allegheny, Berks, Huntingdon and Church. They are farther along than before, those three, but will definitely need more than one or two weekends to be finished. The plan called for closures to go to this weekend or next weekend. I have no clue about the ATO.
It's interesting that KYW had no reports on the Subway problems. Usually it's on the ball on these things. Of course, with all the political candidates calling at Olney Terminal lately (a usual haunt for such as Election Day approaches), maybe all the coverage was going toward them and not the service.
I was wondering if the El would be completed on time. I noticed cable trucks at work yesterday at Spring Garden. I wonder how the riders who are whisking (!) along on I-95 on the Neoplan articulated buses on the Frankford Express will react when weekend El service returns.
Speaking of Philly subways, has anyone heard any news on the latest Roosevelt Boulevard proposals?
Michalovic
Tonight, at around 6:30 P.M., my father was on a Coney-Island-bound F train around Bergen Street, when the train wouldn't move for about half an hour! Does anyone here know why that happened?
- Lyle Goldman
There was brakes in emergency on a train at Fourth Ave. As to the cause and why it took so long to restore service, I was in Queens at the time and out of that base station area.
> As to the cause and why it took so long to restore service, I was in Queens at
> the time and out of that base station area.
So you're saying that you caused it? (:-)
Actually, what I heard was that a train tripped a signal, but I don't know how that happened or even if it's true. Does anyone here have more information?
- Lyle Goldman
The other night I was going back in to the city on the LIRR. Right at the entrance to the east river tunnels, the train stopped, the conductor opened one door and let two employees? out. Right at the tunnel entrance?
The other night I was going back in to the city on the LIRR. Right at the entrance to the east river tunnels, the train stopped, the conductor opened one door and let two employees? out. Right at the
tunnel entrance?.
It could be. Hopping on a train is probably the easiest way for track workers to get to the area, if there's just a couple of them.
I've seen it a few times. There is a tower there, plus the set of emerg. engines. May also be where Sunnyside workers can hitch a ride.
Coming out of the tunnel (going East) there's a little platform where they get off. Since I rode the 1st car on my way home I would see them tell the T/O they wanted to get off. Don't know how the get a pick up ... flag 'em down, a phone/radio call from somewhere ?
P.S. I've also seen them do this at engine facility on the Atlantic Ave line (just before Jamaica) ... there is a little platform there too.
Mr t__:^)
P.S. I've also seen them do this at engine facility on the Atlantic Ave line (just before Jamaica) ... there is a little platform there
too.
Boland's Landing. The 6:53 from Ronkonkoma to Flatbush Avenue announces it as one of the scheduled stops ("for LIRR employees only"). You hear similar announcements for Hillside, but unlike the case with Hillside Boland's Landing doesn't appear in the online public timetable.
What happens if a passenger who is not a employee gets off at an employee only stop?
He doesn't get paid.
That is unlikely to happen. The crew getting off either has their own key or the Conductor opens one door & has seen the folks before, so a "passenger" would get questioned right away.
It would be a very bad thing if someone did get off. First it's unlikely they could flag down the next train, second they would have trouble getting to the street, third it would be hazardious for them to cross the tracks and ask for help. Oh I sudder at the thought.
Mr t__:^)
When I used to ride more frequently from Atlantic Avenue at night (about 15 years ago) eastbound trains would be flagged with a lantern at Boland's Landing. As the train sped through the tunnel, you'd see this moving light at the end -- and sure enough, we'd make a stop for a few employees.
A couple? I used to ride a train from Jamaica to Hunterspoint in the 1960's, I think it was the 7:31 out of Jamaica (from PJ). The rear car was almost all Pennsylvania Railroad employees, and the engineer of that train knew....so he's creep past Sunnyside, and they'd be bailing out the rear steps of the train onto the roadbed.
Looked like paratroopers dropping out of a plane in those WWII movies....
Never saw anyone ever trip/roll at Sunnyside, but there'd always be some fool commuter try it on the platforms at Hunterspoint and wind up ass over teakettle.
This happens on Manhattan-bound PATH trains as well. There are two employee stops: one at the facility west of Harrison, and one at the yard just outside the portal.
This was prompted by a previous post on workplace accidents and something I saw at New Haven.
At New Haven I saw one of those ever popular, morale boosting banners proclaiming "Amtrak Station Services: 6 years accident free" or something to that effect. My first reaction was "::scoff:: this is bunk, what kind of accidents can a station service worker be prone to, getting their nose caught in the ticket printing machine?" I generally found this banner rather amusing, but I have seen signs like these at transit crew depots all over. There was one at Dover NJ proclaiming 213 days w/o a time off injury. My question is are these motovational injury signs posted at MTA crew bases? Whose job is it to change the numbers? What is the current highest number? Has anyone EVER seen one of these signs reading 1 or 0 days without an injury? That's a Kodak moment right there.
Springfield Airport
## Days without a crash
(sorry, I don't remember the number!)
Those "safety" signs are all over the place in the TA. In the beginning they updated them daily(yes, I did see a couple of them revert to zero after an injury) but now they either stay blank or they have the same number on them for two months straight. In other words, they're gathering dust.
And as far as station people getting injured, that happens more often than you would think. Slips and falls(especially under snowy conditions), chemicals burning skin(i.e.bleach), assault or other versions of inattention to duties can result in an injury.
The R142s carry a digital sign proclaiming "XX days since
last failure", however, when last I looked, the sign was
out of service.
No, I think it got its message accross.
These signs are used al over in any industry. The safety office uses them to remind people to be safe and not take unacceptable risks (shortcuts). Example is taking two to life a box, whereas one would cause a back injury.
Lets look at it differently. Instead of numbers of days since last injury (which result in x number of manhours lost), how about miles travel before failure (which result in number of cars available for service).
A GO, originally slated for the weekend of the World Series is now in effect. Surprisingly, there was no mention of it this week on the MTA site, and stations on the 2 and 5 don't appear to have anything either (at least Jackson). It should be in effect today and tomorrow, 8AM to 7PM. The Booth probably put something up on their writing board at the last minute.
The southbound local track is now out of service south of Jackson Av to 149th St Grand Concourse. 3rd Av has trains running in both directions on the uptown side. As for procedure, the soutbound 2 runs normally to Jackson Av. Upon entering Jackson Av, the T/O dumps the train, and a another operator comes aboard on the north end, charges up, and pulls the train northbound over the switch into Track M at Prospect Av. The regular operator can now pull his train south down the middle towards 3rd Av. As a note of interest, since Trains are wrong railing to 3rd Av, the T/O will not get a proper lineup. He/she must pass two automatic signals at the request of the dispatcher stationed in the area for these unusual moves. The T/O moves up to the interlocking signal and waits for the baton. When the baton is received, the downtown train gets clearance to key by the homeball and move onto the uptown track. Watch out and plan extra time for the commute! There's heavy riding on the 2, and 5's aren't running between Grand Concourse and East 180th Street.
Coming up: A concrete pour, plus switch replacement at 125th St upper level will disrupt 4 and 5 train service the following two weekends. 4 Trains will operate between Wooodlawn and 125th St, and 125th St and Utica Av. Since the work is on the upper level, Bronx Bound 4's will most likely be leaving from the lower level of 125. 5 Trains will be operating Dyre Av shuttle service the entire weekend.
-Stef
Stef: i was in the train in the afternoon & it was a pain in the ass because i took me from downtown manhattan to bronx almost two half hours. I see alot of people complaint about the not showing up in time & some of #5 trains make last stop at 149th St & Grand Concourse also some of #2 trains go to 148th St Lenox Term. Well it the worse day & now i have a headace because of those stupied G.O.
Peace Out
David Justiniano
Well the GO was made worse by the fact that a contractor doing the signals on the White Plains line inadvertently cut a feeder cable in the vicinity of Bronx Park East, knocking out signals in the area down towards East 180th Street. There were going to be problems as a result. Fortunately, it appears that the GO is only in effect today until 7 PM, according to the notices. Tomorrow, service should be normal. The guard rail and running rail were being replaced in sections near the switch south of Jackson Av.
If you've read the notices, in the coming weeks, 2 service will be knocked out between Gun Hill Rd and 241 St.
-Stef
Because, of that idiot contractor, I was an hour late for work. I left my house at 10:30 this morning and didn't get to work until 1:00.
Well that should be it for that crazy GO on the 2/5. The work on the White Plains Line is far from over....
-Stef
TWU has been saying for years that these private non union contractors working in a union facility (TA property) do shoddy work because they get their contracts for one reason and one reason only: the submitted the lowest bid in a process set up by the politicians. And guess what? You get what you pay for! That contractor would not have cut that cable if he knew what he was doing! The TWU people know their system. They can do the job better then these fly by nite contractors who would not be in business if it weren't for the TA.
yes i was part of that GO it was a very slow.I got on at the Dyre Avenue station only to find out that it only went to East 180th street, got off there and waited for about 15 minutes for a 2 train which was packed and became even more crowded from the Dyre Avenue people who got dumped off at East 180th.We stopped at Jackson Avenue, the train reversed itself and went on the middle track.We waited again for about 10 minutes for a northbound 2 train.switched over and went on the uptown track past where a crew of workman appeared to be working on a switch, I guess pulled into the 3rd avenue 149th station people on the platform were confused, the platform was crowded, and of course people had to get off there,making even more mass confusion.We moved into Manhattan where I saw redbirds going to 148th street I saw about three trains, I guess they were diverted from going to 241st street due to the single tracking, They had Flatbush Avenue signs.
That was the other part of the GO. Some 2's were diverted to 148th Street, leaving customers in the Bronx waiting every 20 mins for a train. Yeah, I'm sure it was the pits, but it was an unusual operation. A TSS was on the platform at Jackson Av telling customers of how service was operating. He came to tell me and I said I knew about it, although there didn't seem to be any advanced warning of it.
-Stef
GO OVER!
-Stef
You are right Stef, I forgot about the GO today that is why the redbirds were at the Concourse yard.
I would like to know if there is going to be limited through service for the 63 St/Queens Blvd Connection in Jan 2001 & if so, what hours or days will the service operate & what line will operate through the connection.
Look!!! No one knows!!! If anyone finds out, they will post it!!! Stop asking these stupid questions that nobody's going to know the answers to or it's KILLFILE time!!! Stop asking questions concerning "Manhattan Bridge", "63 Street", or "Connection"!!!
running on...
R68A-5200:
My best guess is there won't be any service on the 63rd St. connection until 2002 at the earliest. I anyone has any information on the 63rd St. connection I guess it will be posted when the time come. Until then we can't cross that bridge until we come to it.
BMTJeff
Cross that bridge? Don't you mean, "Cross that tunnel?"
:-)
running on...
Well, follo always asks about the bridge as well, so it applies. So how do we cross the river, by bridge or by tunnel?
BOAT!
(A little West Indian humor I got from a co-worker)
R68A-5200:
I did mean cross that tunnel in a sense when I said cross that bridge.
BMTJeff
There's a certain bridge in lower Manhattan that we can't cross, even when we come to it!!
Until then we can't cross that bridge until we come to it.
I thought it was a TUNNEL
Elias
Stop asking questions concerning "Manhattan Bridge"
Hey! the Manhattan Bridge Questions were intersting, and I learned things I hadn't known before.
But I *did* find out why New Yorkers are so depressed!
(Because the Light at the end of the Tunnel is *New Jersey*)
Hehehehehe......
Elias
Well, I meant future service patterns concerning the Manhattan Bridge.
running on...
Yes!
I have it from the signal contractor's technicians that the track should be ready for trains to run through it in tests, the second weekend of December. Sometime after that in later December or early January they will begin using the tube for through F trains at night and on the weekends for G.O. purposes.
By the way, I am back to Construction Flagging for the new pick, so the my adventures will be posted once again.
(Sometime after that in later December or early January they will begin using the tube for through F trains at night and on the weekends for G.O. purposes.)
How about re-routes? One of the killers is the way the QB line gets backed up, and any delay on the express tracks means rush hour doom. If they could shift trains over from time to time, that could reduce these delays.
but they'd have to make the anounc. at Rooservelt so the people who need Queens Plaza can switch
(but they'd have to make the anounc. at Rooservelt so the people who need Queens Plaza can switch)
There aren't a lot of those, and they can always go back from Manhttan. You can get the #7 at 42nd and 6th, or get the Broadway line at 34th Street.
lots of people take the exp. to QP then switch to the r to get the 4 or 5 at 59 rather then trans at lex-51 then at 42
It still beats not moving at all.
Arti
Not to mention those transferring to the 6 at Lexington, since there is no transfer from the 63rd St. line. Probably close to half the train would get off a 63rd St.-bound train at Roosevelt Ave. to get on the already packed 53rd St.-bound train behind it to make this transfer.
If that happened, ut would probably be faster to stay on the rerouted F and transfer to an uptown F at 47-50 Sts. to get to Lexington.
[Not to mention those transferring to the 6 at Lexington, since there is no transfer from the 63rd St. line]
If you had unlimited Metrocard you could walk 3 blocks to Lex &59th.
Arti
One of the dumbest things I have seen the TA do is NOT connect those two stations for passengers. There is a closet from off the token booth area for electrical gear that has a second door opposite the first; it opens out oun to the downtown Lexington local platform! Would have made a lot of sense to just have made that a passage.
How difficult would it be to put in a passageway within the fare control area of both stations? If I understand you correctly, the closet is inside fare control on the Lex, but outside at 63rd.
subfan
Yes it is, you are correct but the room contains equipment which would likely be expensive to move. Electrical gear and the like.
Would it be difficult to build a seperate, parallel connecting passageway? With the opening of the 63rd Street connector, it seems that a large nubber of former F or R riders will now end up going through the 63rd & Lex stop, thereby losing the connection at either 53rd or 59th & Lex, unless such a passageway is constructed.
subfan
you seem to have a lot of hostility to you. i understand that some of the questions may get well quite repetitive, but please understand that there are alot of new people who are learning about the subway system. just be patient or DON'T RESPOND TO THE QUESTION. it's just that simple. I remember the first time i checked out this site and i asked questions. i recall there were a few people who were downright rotten to the core but the majority were very helpful. so plese if it is someone new asking what you or i consider an old question you can answer -youn can also refuse to do so as well.
Well, this person isn't new. This person has asked this question many many many times and everytime someone has told that person that it is unknown and will be posted as soon as it is. What would you do? You'd wait, right? Nooo, he decides to ask the same question every week. I'm sure you'd act differently and wouldn't repost over and over, right? Would you my actions justified?
running on...
You haven't been here in the last week, huh? 'follo' has asked the say couple of questions twice a week for the last month. Usually, the questions are easily found just by reading the post IMMEDIATELY BELOW his question.
-Hank
I got some questions for follo:
When will he cease to ask these stupid questions? How many times will his questions go unanswered before he decides to ask them again? Why is he so obsessed about the opening dates of the 63rd. St connection? Is he having his wedding on Roosevelt Island and he wants to make sure his grandparents from Rego Park can get there without having to go into Manhattan?
It is a new week so we have to ask when the 63rd st tunnel connector will go in to service.
Yes there will be. The P train will run express late nights from Coney Island to 179 St via the 63 Street Connection. Then the 4 train will hang a right at 63 St. since it is really exicted about the opening as well. Then the L train will make a suprise cameo appearance during the Feburary Sweeps to bring in more riders so the TA will get more revenue from advertising. The G train, mad that it has been cut back to Court Sq., plans revenge on the V train for stealing its cars. When it is all over, the season will end with the blowing up of the Manhattan Bridge.
LOL
Rob, you're crazy, man! I haven't laughed like that in ages!
Sarcasm definitely doesn't become you, my friend!
Who says I'm being sarcastic? My sources are so reliable that even Train Dude is jealous :-)
Dude, u forgot the R and 7 train. they're mad as hell.they werent inclued ,and had to watch for years at QUEENSBORO PLAZA!
NBC is looking for a few good writers, with "Deadline" just canceled after 5 episodes ....
--Mark
Don't forget to take the "P", across the platform, against the wall.
And watch out for the third rail.:-)
No time soon. What do you do with the Q train layups between rush hour??
Money train , and gawbitch train.
avid
I rode on the Woodlawn Line today, I noticed in the concourse yard a group of R-33 Dyre Avenue redbirds, are these trains about to be scrapped? I think there were about three trains or so..
No way! There is no notice of any retirements as of yet. Let them get a sufficient amount of R-142/R-142A equipment into service before that happens. They were probably being stored due to the fact that the GO on the 2/5 was in effect.
Also, Redbird 4s get stored down in Concourse on occasion.
-Stef
I have finally completed my layout of the B-Division. There are virtually no problems with it except that there are a number of departure failures. Along with the layout, I created some R131 (R110B) cars for my layout too. Enjoy! If you find anything that needs to be changed, e-mail me. Thanks.
http://r68a5200.homestead.com/files/bxx0500.zip
running on...
I did create a BAHN 3.59 system for the entire NYCTA subway system. If anyone wants to use it to create more current layouts than the 1967 date I depicted, feel free to do so.
I also created a set of "elevated" graphics for use with BAHN layouts. If anyone wants it, let me know at:
shoskins@ix.netcom.com
Be glad to send the graphics along to you!
Is it a file called "ELEVATED.UZG"? If it is, it's needed to properly display this layout of yours. Is there a web site I can download it from or do I need it e-mailed to me. If the latter, use the e-mail link provided in the line above (where it says "Posted by R36 #9346 on...") I opened the file without this and I see all these big U's on either side of the tracks, i.e. U030, U032, U029, etc. (I'm using version 3.70 B7.)
Yes, that IS the file that is necessary. Once you instal it with your BAHN layouts (in the same directory) and then set the user graphics selections to this file, it will make your layout look slightly better than all those symbols indicating a missing graphic.
I will send you the file as soon as I finish here....
SJH
I tried that link but my Netscape is telling me a network error is preventing me from downloading the file.
Hmmm... seems to work fine on my system. I'll try to copy my Geocities site later. Busy now. Sorry. :-(
running on...
Must have been my Netscape. I used I.E. and it downloaded fine!
Usually I like Netscape because it is faster but I guess there was a compatability problem. I looked at your B division file and it is very nice!
I would like to get a radio scanner. Is there anything I should look for or know about scanners?
Dan
nyrail.cjb.net
Go to Radio Shaque and get the one that costs $90-100 (basic model). It will be more than enough for all your railfan needs. If you want the best I've heard that the Sony Wavehawk is really good and it covers 1-1200MHz inclusive. I'm sure if you look on the internet you can find stuff that can recieve cell phones also. This might come in handy in the Wall St. area. You'll also need to get a Radio Shaque hand held tape recorder ($26) and a 6 foot mono-mono dubbing cable so you can easily record what you scan.
Thanks, I don't have that much spare cash now, but I'll be sure to get one. I have a Minidisc recorder so I can redord digitally.
Dan
I'm sorry, I forgot to ask what is the frequency range that a good radio scanner for railfanning should have. I intend to use this with transit, LIRR, MNRR, Amtrak, CSK/NS/Conrail etc.
Thanks.
Dan
Since they go from 1-1200 MHz, can you receive FM Radio? What's the resolution (it would have to be 200 KHz or less for FM Radio)? And what happens when you tune to a TV channel? like 77 MHz.
Unless it has Wideband mode, you'll get TV audio in narrow band, so it'll sound a little wierd. The video signal is just a hum.
--Mike
I certainly hope that you are not recommending to young Daniel,
a minor, that he engage in the illegal practice of monitoring
or, even worse, recording cell phone conversations!
I thought that child labor laws made it illegal for people under eighteen to work in mines.
Radio Shack sells quite a few. Make sure you get 800 Mhz trunked coverage so you can get the bands the MTA buses use.
The following message originally appeared on the SCAN-L mailing list. I'm posting it here in its entirety. Since it addresses RR monitoring, these radios will serve your needs...
Let me know if you have any more questions...
--Mike
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bryan" ks4hr@NETZERO.NET
To: SCAN-L@LISTSERV.UARK.EDU
Sent: Tuesday, October 31, 2000 4:10 PM
Subject: Starter scanners on sale.
For those looking for a starter scanner, Wal-mart has the BC-45XLT 20
channel for $49.88. Small amount of channels by today's standards, but good for the RR monitor.
Radio Shack has the Pro-75 200 Ch for $99.99, with 200 channels a great RR scanner, set first 97 channels with the RR standards.
Bryan in Appomattox County, VA
Usual disclaimer applies, your mileage may vary, yada..yada..yada...
--
FAQ: http://plaws.net/scan/scan-l.txt | NO COMMERCIAL POSTS!
Most scanners will get you all the RR frequencies, only if you want to listen to the Aircraft band will you need to pay attention to what the scanner covers. By law all new scanners have the cell phone frequencies blocked. It is against the law to listen to cell phone conversations.
Why is it against the law to listen to the emectro-magnetic fields that pass through your very body? I'm sure you can find a REAL scanner online somewhere. Back in the 80's the Radio Shaque manuals even told you how to get cell phone transmissions.
Technically speaking, you CAN jerry-rig a common handheld scanner to pick-up UNSCRAMBLED cell phone signals. But you would need some knowledge of radio electronics.
BMTman
It's because our brain-dead lawmakers decided that they could prevent themselves from being embarassed (like Newt's cellphone call that started all of this) by simply making it illegal (never mind that the Communication Act of 1934 says it isn't illegal). They completely ignored the fact that the law already made it illegal to divulge the contents of any transmission to others, and they could have gone after people based on the existing law. But that would have made too much sense.
On a related note, it is legal to listen to "tone-only" pager broadcasts, but it is illegal to listen to numeric or alphanumeric pager broadcasts. But all 3 types are transmitted on the same frequency! So you have to listen to it to know if it's a transmission you are allowed to listen to (how's that for brain-dead?).
The law prohibits the import or sale of receivers that can be "easily converted" to receive the forbidden frequencies. Some manufacturers are more creative in interpreting that than others - some radios have the block implemented in their firmware and you'd need different firmware to enable the frequencies, while others (used to?) have a jumper, diode, etc. which is read by the firmware to tell it that it is Ok to receive them.
I still don't think we should be promoting illegal activites on this board even if the law is "dumb". What a person does is what a person does (or is that do). Old scanners can get the cell phone freq and new ones can be modifed, there are even books on it, that is legal (the books) but using the scanner once the mod is doen isn't.
I'm not "promoting any illegal activity" - I was answering the previous post which asked "why is it illegal". BTW, it is not necessarily against the law to use a modified scanner (for example, if you are an employee of a cellular carrier conducting tests, you are allowed, though in practice they wouldn't use that as they have dedicated test equipment for the purpose). I also think simply having a modified scanner is now illegal, though I'm not familiar with the latest set of laws.
Well what I found out is that the Sony Wavehawk pickes up just about everything including cell phones. However, only analog cell phone can be intercepted by a scanner. Digital phones are digital and require de-encryption.
Dan
Well what I found out is that the Sony Wavehawk picks up just about everything including cell phones. However, only analog cell phone can be intercepted by a scanner. Digital phones are digital and require de-encryption.
Dan
here's a list most RR freq. http://www.eastrailnews.com/rr101/aarradiofreq.html
You might want to check out http://www.grove-ent.com/ for a used scanner. The prices are pretty good. Look in Bob's Bargain Bin.
A good informative site is at http://www.strongsignals.net/
-- Kirk
11/04/2000
Today I traveled to Atlantic Ave (2,3) to check out the work on the station. The long disused stairs that lad up to the landmark koisk was exposed with daylight cascading in. It seems that the stairwell from street level to the first landing has new "I" beams supporting the space which will be filled in.
It is my guess that the long disused stairs from platform to first landing will be eliminated since when the kiosk returns, it will no longer be used for passenger use.
This complex should be a challenge to make it ada accessible. With plenty of steep stairs and no ramps, this should be interesting. In the corridor underneath the LIRR station, the ceiling has been stripped to the original masonary work. Atlantic Ave (D)(Q), a dungeon with tracks is long overdue for rehab. BTW, there seems to be excatvation next to the LIRR handicapped elevator. Is this elevator being moved or a new one for the subway being installes ?
Bill "Newkirk"
Well I first got my 11:32am N21 out of Glen Cove. Fairly crowded and 10 minutes late (and a slow Cummins).
Get off at Great Neck and wait for the 12:49pm train to Penn. Right on time and the front car open and empty. Before Bayside we were switched to the eastbound track. It felt weird being wrong railed we managed our normal speeds on there.
After going through more switches around Shea, the train got some good speed in the stretch through Corona.
Nice fast ride through Sunnyside, and as we went into the tunnel I walked toward the front window. Cab door open as usual and a large conductor looking out what the part of the exposed window. I just looked through cab and what little I could see out of the window.
Those east river tunnels are nice, were at 60mph for a good part of the tunnel trip. The tunnels are so much better lit than the subway tubes (why?). There were some pretty major leaks near the Manhattan end under the river. The tunnel ceiling did appear to be decaying a bit, and the catenary was easily visible. Fast slowdown just prior to Penn, otherwise a pretty fast 2 1/2 minute tunnel ride.
Later I took a "D" southbound through the 34th-W4th dash. The R68 train actually appeared to go pretty fast, looking out though the semi-front window. Perhaps the "Hippos" merely feel slower because they sway alot slower than the other trains.
On the way back from Chinatown a Slant R40 was on the B! I thought I was seeing things while waiting at Grand St.
Another nice fast ride in the dash (I love that sweet dash!). There is a certain sweet smell in the dash that is so nice.
Took it all the way to Queensbridge, and a fast ride through the beautuful 63rd street tunnels. The architecture is very nice in those florescent lit tunnels.
On the way back from 21st I had an R68A "B" train, which did fairly well in the 63rd street tube, which has good grades for the 75 footers.
Later going back I took an F to Briarwood. The F train (R46 as front window covered) was pretty fast through 53RD st tubes. We ran "express" after Queens Plaza, but slow around the new interlocking with 63rd street) but was fast right on through 71st/Continental.
Took the Q20A bus back from Briarwood, and we managed to keep the Q44 behind us (Q44, some express!). The Q44 which was right behind us was 8 minutes behind by the time we got to Flushing.
Then another lousy, migrant packed N21 bus ride home. Rough crowd on there man. I guy took out a pocket knife showing it to his friend and playing with the lighter. He actually lit the lighter, on the moving N21 bus, another slow Cummins.
I still prefer F train to the Q20/Q44 at Briarwood, mainly because the 7 train is the subway's equivalent to the N21. So many beautiful chinese girls in Flushing but I never see that many on the 7? Wonder why?
Thats because they all take the LIRR. LOL LOL :)
I had a little excursion myself this afternoon, although my time was limited to about 3 hours from 4-7 PM.
I took an NJTransit bus (#195) into the PABT, then debated over which subway line to get on - I opted for the #7 train (there's a surprise - I am drawn to the #7, it is my favorite line, with the redbirds that have the "blinking" lights!), getting on the one on the north track (the one that would change tracks after leaving the station), so I could experience the lights going off (one of my favorite moments on the #7 train! This and the Flushing end).
I rode out to Flushing, then on the way back, I got off at Woodside to enjoy the view, sunset, and mild air. I caught the next train and got off at 40th Street, deciding to take a bus on Queens Blvd into Manhattan. I waited for about ten minutes and a Green Lines Q60 bus (RTS #206) pulls up and I got on. The damn thing was a rattle trap! Probably a chain-smoker too (didn't see the back of the bus as it pulled away), judging from fairly recent reports about Green Lines smoking habits.
It rattled across the 59th Street Bridge and discharged at 60th and 2nd. I was debating on whether to get on the Roosevelt Island Tram, but time contraints dissuaded me. I rode it once before, and will definately have to do it again. I started walking over to Lex Ave to catch a bus going down to GCT, when I turned around and noticed a Q32 behind me (Orion 522), realizing that it ran along 60th. What caught my attention, though, was the orange destination signs. Anyway, I jumped on that and decided to stay on that down to 42nd, even though it ran (crawled) down 5th, so I would have to walk over to Grand Central. We crawled down 5th and I took in the scenes, with Liberty Lines and NYBS buses running alongside us.
When I got off in front of the main library, there was a crowd gathered around a group of sidewalk entertainers - a VERY good drummer on drum set (a real one, not concrete buckets) as well as a couple of dudes breakdancing. I had to break away from that, that drummer had such a mean beat going!
At Grand Central, I planned to visit the Transit Museum store, but discovered that it closed at 4 (it was now almost 6). So I headed to the lower level food court for a bite. I settled on a German sausage place (forgot the name - I picked up a menu, but I either dropped it or somebody swiped it), selecting a pork sausage with saurkraut and a side of chili. I took it over to a table and studied the pictures of schedules and tickets of Metro-North, NY Central, Penn Central, and New Haven Railroad while working on the sausage, which was pretty damn good, as well as the chili. That place is awesome! I could spend a good couple hours wandering around GCT. As for the dining concourse, in the future I would like to try the Indian place, as well as the German place again. Too bad they don't have a Greek or Chinese place (at least I didn't see one).
Feeling satisfied, I walked to the subway concourse and walked to the #7 train via the downtown Lex platform - just as an R-142 #6 train was departing!
I got on the 7 and all the way to Times Square, I crossed my fingers, hoping it would take the crossover. Unfortunately, we hit the crossover and the lights merely flickered as we stayed on the same track.
Then it was a relaxing ride on the #192 bus back to Jersey.
The German place is called Knödel. There is a Chinese place there - Nem - it's at the southwest corner of the concourse.
You shouldn't feel bad about Queens Transit RTS buses rattling. We have some out here where I drive that are 1980 models. They ratlle like hell, but OH!, do they fly!!! I'd much rather drive one of them that the pieces of crap (Gillig Phantoms) that we have at one of our other garages....
I settled on a German sausage place (forgot the name - I picked up a menu, but I either dropped it or somebody swiped it), selecting a pork sausage with saurkraut and a side of chili ... Then it was a relaxing ride on the #192 bus back to Jersey.
Of course, you had the bus all to yourself :-)
There is one, sometimes two, Slant R40 on the "B" ONLY on the weekends. These are "Q" trains during the week.
wayne
Yep, saw 2 slants on the B this weekend on the CI tour. One right after the other.
Train#1901Mike
What do folks think about the New York State Transportation Bond Act that will be on the ballot on November 7th? You can find information at:
http://www.state.ny.us/transportation/
David
I brought up this issue last week. Go back some posts.
3TM
Adam Sandler, in a role he was born to play, is the spawn of the devil in "Little Nicky". The movie is set in NYC. On a commercial currently running for the movie, there's a view of an onrushing subway train. It says 'K' and in smaller letters 'express' in the familiar MTA bullet. As we know, there's no K train, and only the redbirds have local or express indicators.
So, why the inaccuracy? Would it kill them to get a detail like this right?
Or, are the moviemakers under some kind of restriction to NOT show an actual NYC subway line?
www.forgotten-ny.com
The K is red, the real K on every B division rollsign is blue.
The EXPRESS sign below the bullet is exactly like the one below the Diamond-6 on the R-62, not Redbird.
I don't know if this was previously addressed, but the images of subways on bootleg subway series t-shirts are bogus. Some show a picture of a Pullman coach with railings, one that looked like a green R-10, some show a subway with flanges on both sides of the wheel, and I saw one with a monorail. Most of the others tried to look like NYC subways, but nonemof them did. They all had inaccuracies, like placement of doors and windows, design of the carbody, etc. But people buy them.
Dan
nyrail.cjb.net
the images of subways on bootleg subway series t-shirts are bogus.
No - not all of them. Some of them are officially licensed from the MTA. I, for one, have a tee-shirt and two sweatshirts depicting R-10s (and these are real images), one of which, if you examine it really carefully, has some R-1/9s coupled to the back of the R-10 (meaning it has to be 1575, or the picture was taken in the yard before scrapping). These are not drawn in or morphed images - these are real.
--Mark
I saw one being sold at the Palisades Center mall that had two R-110B's coming towards eachother!!
One had a green bullet #4 sign and the other R-110B was tinted a Redbird red with a purple #7 bullet.
These Subway Series shirts have some wild designs on them. I'm thinking of collecting them, but everytime you turn around, another one pops up. It can be quite an expensive hobby.
Expensive isn't the word! Ah the price to pay for a hobby. I've gotten quite a selection of these shirts; I'll be eating peanut butter and jelly for months to come.
At the price of jelly nowadays, you might not do too well, Joe!!!
You are right about that, Steve. So I'll eat it plain, or with other condiments, like butter or honey. Or Chocolate!!!
Joe C
One possible explanation is that the MTA has become very anal
about considering the images of its stations and rolling stock
to be intellectual property subject to copyright and license.
I'm not kidding.
You're close ... the MTA does not allow its equipment (or its image) to be negatively depicted in films. That's why there's so much "artistic license" involved.
Also, recent Transit Museum tours (at least those that used to go to closed/abandoned areas) no longer allowed the use of a camcorder. The theory is, I think, that this could be used by terrorists to plant bombs. Depicting the MTA "realisticly" in movies might also be used by terrorists in this manner.
I know, farfetched, I know ....
--Mark
I saw another ad last night for something( I forget what) that has a man sittign on a subway train the Roll sign above him saw F CONEY ISLAND, but the car is clearly not MTA
No, I'm pretty sure that the MTA is also interested in collecting
royalties for the use of images of its equipment and stations.
The concern over terrorism and what not is another factor.
That security angle is what originally made it illegal to photograph
in the transit system without a photo permit, a World War II
provision that was still on the books until the early 90s when
someone sued and got it thrown out.
I think that photo permit provision, though not enforced, is still on the books, the lawsuit notwithstanding.
--Mark
The Times on Sunday, November 5 reports that the 9th Avenue El tunnel will be sealed up soon. Good thing Mark W and company salvaged some nifty stuff on last winter's tours.
A guy from the mayor's office told me as much a few weeks ago...
www.forgotten-ny.com
11/05/2000
That tunnel has been sealed and reopened many times.
A final sealing of the tunnel will require a very thick concrete wall. Unless the neighborhood denizons have jack hammers !
Bill "Newkirk"
Is there an on-line link to this article?
Also, I contacted that same guy from the Mayor's office and asked him to consider allowing us one last walk through the tunnel in advance of its permanent "sealing". Sort of, if you'll pardon the pun, a "closing ceremony".
We'll see ...
--Mark
Only the $2.50 times charges to get articles from the archive. I looked. If I have time to visit a library to photo copy it I will try but I'm too busy this week.
Since you're from Brooklyn you should join NYPL, then you get access, via Proquest, to the last 90 days of the Times, FREE.
Brooklyn Public Library membership is a waste of time.
Oh BTW, Proquest is accessible at the NYPL website, AT HOME!
Proquest is a great database full of newspaper articles from all over the country. Being in college in GA, I get free access to Proquest, Lexis-Nexis, and tens of other databases full of info about any subject. I can (and have) get tons of sources for research papers in 30 or so minutes without ever getting off my ass. Found lots of stuff on subways, too.
Which 9th Avenue El tunnel is this? Where is it located?
The Polo Grounds Shuttle.
As Jeff stated, it's the Polo Grounds shuttle remains.
Read all about it.
--Mark
There is such a shortage of space in the city, you'd think they could use the tunnel for something. Heck, outside Kansas City they use caves for offices, stores, industrial parks, etc.
How about a school? Or storage for City vehicles?
There is such a shortage of space in the city, you'd think they could use the tunnel for something. Heck, outside Kansas City they use caves for offices, stores, industrial parks, etc.
How about a school? Or storage for City vehicles?
A street would have to be built under the Major Deegan to allow the vehicles to get to it, and I guess it would be limited to cars and vans due to size restrictions.
The other end at Jerome/Andersen is above you, so some kind of ramp would have to be build from 163rd St to get up there.
I don't think that's gonna happen anytime soon.
--Mark
Why are there ventilation gratings in the median of Fourth Avenue? These end exactly where the Sea Beach line leaves 4th Avenue. Other avenues just as wide have ventilation in the sidewalks.
Sometime in the 1960s or early 1970's they did a rebuild of Fourth Avenue which included turnouts, a median, new sidewalks etc. and I think the ventilation gratings were relocated to the newly-reconstructed median at that time. I am NOT sure of the exact date, only the general time-period. I DO remember that it caused quite a headache construction wise. It extended from Atlantic Avenue to the Gowanus Expressway, approx. 62nd Street.
wayne
Interesting this question comes up on marathon day. I happened to be watching the NYC marathon and noticed the center median ventilation grates on 4th avenue.
As to why they were put (actually moved) there I guess when they reconstruced 4th ave back in the 60s and 70s they felt they would provide better ventilation in that spot.
The runners move fast though. Could they have beat a train leaving Pacific to Dekalb? Probably.
I think they made it to L.I.C. faster than the G train!
If anyone was wondering where I was the past few hours, I was in Montreal and I did get to ride the Metro there on Saturday.
After going up Mont Royal, I walked down Mont Royal Street and went to the Mont Royal Station. I got some pictures of
buses along the way. I took the orange line from Mont Royal to Berri-UQAM, changed for the green, and took that to McGill.
First impressions were good. I thought it was noiser than the DC Metro and I didn't like the fact there is no railfan window. On
the orange line, the sign announcing the next station was cool but ads about irrelevant things are annoying. The green line didn't
have this (I could tell the cars were older) and there were no announcements of any sort.
I walked back to where I was staying
for an hour or so, got some food, and got back on the Metro at Sherbrooke to go to a women's hockey game. I took the
orange line to Vendome. I saw most of the advertisements go by including something about our election on Tuesday but since I don't know French, I don't know what it said. I missed
the 37 bus by two minutes and waited about 30 for the next one. It was a low floor bus (my guess is that it was made my
Nova) and the destanation sign is still a flip dot sign making it impossible to read from a distance. In fact, all the buses have flip
dot signs! The back door is a pain to open since all the instructions are in French although my cousin explained it to me
beforehand. After two periods, we went outside and took the 36 to Place St. Henri which is a very nice station, architecturally.
I took the train to Lionel-Groux and transfered to the green line. This time, there were announcements made by the operator. I
got of at Places-de-Arts and took some bus up Avenida de Parc to where I stayed. This was an older bus and to open the rear
door, you merely stepped in the stairwell.
Questions/Comments:
Who made the subway cars? My guess is Bombardier.
Who decided on no railfan window?
Why aren't the subway cars linked in three car sets?
Does the Metro ever go above ground?
How old are the low floor buses?
Why no LEDs on the destanation signs?
The bus doors are a pain and slow everything down since it takes forever for them to open, even with the most experienced
commuter using them.
Trains are pretty quiet but louder than DC, quiter than NYC.
Pretty stations
I'll get my photos online ASAP.
Off topic: Olympic Stadium looks really ugly.
The only question of yours I can answer is that no, the Metro does not ever go above ground. My wife and I rode it this August for the first time since Expo '67. Hopefully Marty will see your post and respond; he is a Montréal native and (along with his wife) showed Mary and I around parts of the city one day this summer. I suspect that he can answer most of your other questions.
Where on du Parc did you stay? We were at the Renaissance Hotel du Parc - a very nice hotel, much nicer than the places we usually stay. (Chalk one up for the travel agent - wish they had done as well in Toronto and Québec City, although in fairness to them the only real problem with the place in QC was the hardness of the mattress.)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I can answer a few of your questions.
The cars are made by Bombardier in Quebec.
The buses are Novas. They range in age from 1997 to present.
I thought the cars were linked in three car sets (or elements). There are 9 car trains most of the time. I think the 5 line has six car trains off peak.
The big O was a big mistake. Part of the 1976 Olympic fiasco
The website Rail & Transports Urbains mentions Bombardier and Vickers (U.K.) in its section on the Montreal Metro. I can't read French well, but this may give you a start.
The older Metro cars were made by Vickers in, I belive, 1967.
The newer ones were built by Bombardier in the early 1970s; the year 1973 comes to mind, but I'm not exactly sure.
No rail fan window: That was the source of much fustration when I was younger and rode the Metro in Montreal when I visited my grandparents when they lived there. The lack of a railfan window can be directly attributed to the full width transverse cab found on those trains, which is something that the STCUM probably included in the car specifications when the first generation of equipment was designed in the 1960s.
The subway cars ARE linked into sets of three, in the following configuration:
Motor car -- Unpowered railer car -- Motor car
If I remember correctly, all Motor cars have the full width transverse cab (of course without the rail fan window).
The Metro doesn't go above ground because Quebec winters and the rubber tire traction configuration would not mix with Quebec winters (snow would jam up in all of the many rails and make trouble for the underside equipment on the trains).
The Olympic Stadium is not only ugly, but the roof has been a total disaster.
-Robert King
All of my Metro experience in Montreal was with the original 1960s rolling stock and no, there were no railfan windows. I did manage to get a view through the front by looking through the space between the cab door and bulkhead - it's only a crack, but that's all you need.
IIRC, Olympic Stadium was barely finished in time for the '76 summer games. Cost overruns pushed the final price tag to something like $755 million.
My tour guide when I was there Columbus Day weekend (incidentally, Canadian Thanksgiving as well) said they're still paying for the Montreal games. The roof does look terrible.
My tour guide when I was there Columbus Day weekend (incidentally, Canadian Thanksgiving as well) said they're still paying for the Montreal games. The roof does look terrible.
Unfortunately, I only got to ride the Metro one stop when I was there last month. I was with my wife and another non-railfan couple, who were driving, so I had to cajole them into taking even that short trip. My friend did comment on the rubber tires, though, and I resisted the temptation to expound on the subject. I found the short ride pleasant enough. I took the line under Rue de Ste. Catharine, I think, and it reminded me of WMATA because I could see the next station platforms down the track from the platform on which I stood, a la the view from Gallery Place's red line platform down to the red line platforms at Metro Center, that being a short distance too. I had a brief flash about what it must have been like to board the 1904 IRT, when the station agent provided us paper tickets after we paid our fares.
IIRC, Montreal incurred a debt approaching $1 billion in the aftermath of the '76 Olympics.
I do remember being able to see adjacent stations down the tunnel on the Green line.
There were no annoucements at all? When I was there, they had an automated female voice, the speakers sucked, so I couldn't make out any individual words, but then again, my French is extremly limted, so it wouln't have mattered. I thought that the trains were noisy, too. I always heard how rubber tires would give a quieter, smoother ride, but I only notced a smoother ride. Those tires just generate way too much friction. The railfan window thing sucks, not even a little hole for a sneak peek. The T/O's look bored on the Metro, It seemed like they just sat there with thier arms crossed waiting for their shift to be over.
One thing I like about the Metro is how you can see a lot of stuff in the tunnels. There are no columns in the middle, so you see get a clear view of how the tunnels were made and whats in them. I think it's a great system with impressive stations that are only second to MARTA.
Personally, I can't stand riding on trains with rubber wheels. When I was in Paris, their subway lines on rails operated MUCH smoother than their subway lines on rubber wheels. While sitting down, I was always bouncing up and down on the seat with those tire trains. Same with the women on board! :)
Maybe Montreal's system is much smoother than Paris'. I haven't been to Montreal since 1980 and I've forgotten almost everything about my visit. I do however plan on going back there soon.
I meant on the green line when I went from Berri-UQAM to McGill the first time I rode. All the orange line trains had automated announcements and the second green line train had the T/O doing them.
Well, it certainly looks like her in a NJ Transit ad in Saturday's Jersey Journal. Clad in bellbottom pinstripe pantsuit complete with traditional conductor's cap (even has a metal plate) and stopwatch with fob, the only out of place item (I'm not making this up) are the
foot-high spike heels!
My real reason for the post is to elaborate on the ad's caption: "Check out the new fall line at the mall." Yes, service will be extended to Newport November 18. There's an interesting service pattern depicted. Trains from 34th St are merely going one additional stop north, to Harborside. Only the West Side Av trains will make the additional two stops to Harsimus Cove and Newport. Thought you potential riders coming from the south should be alerted.
There is a 3/4 page ad in The Sunday News from New York City Transit. The theme is "The World Series Is Over...Our Transit System Goes On". "Join Our Winning Team". They are advertising for Car Inspectors, Transit Electrical Helpers and Bus Maintainers.
There are immediate openings for car inspectors with a salary of $22.2075 per hour.
There ad is very attractive!
The electrical helper filing deadline was just extended by DCAS because they did not have enough respondants.
I'm visiting Toronto tomorrow, can anyone make reccomendations on lines to tour on?
Dave,
Toronto's subway lines are the backbone of the fleet, but I believe the streetcars are the most interesting part.
The Spadina route is not to be missed.
Also, if you can be at the corner of Queen and Roncesvalles between 2:30 and 3, you will see all the cars coming out of the carhouse for afternoon rush on the best streetcar corner in North America (IMHO).
A trip up to St. Clair West station is also worthwhile. The subway ride is interesting and the underground streetcar/bus loop at the station provides non-stop action.
If you have not doneso before, take a trip on the Bloor/Danforth subway to Broadview stn so you can see the Don Valley.
Make sure you go up to the observation deck of the CN Tower during rush hour to watch all the commuter line trains enter & exit the main station from 147 stories up!!!
Too late now I suppose but read over our Toronto streetcars guide:
Toronto Streetcars
-Dave
Anyone ever see this short art film about the subway? Caught the tail end on PBS. Here's a link to download the quicktime. Be warned, it's over 6mb.
http://researchnet.vprc.asu.edu/isa/Pages/CE/ce/visu/arc/token.html
Here are some more pictures, courtesy of an anonymous donor, that were taken at the site of the recent Number 4 crash...More to come!
CLICK HERE
Peace,
ANDEE
These are great pictures. Please express our appreciation to your anonymous donor for making them available to us.
--Mark
I am sure you just have. I do not even know who it is...really.
Peace,
ANDEE
I just had a thought on the cause of the accident. Has anyone considered the the brakes on the cars behind 1369 failed? It's happened before on class 1's, where a brake hose broke, but wound up bending in such a way that the air pressure remained in the line. When the engineer tried to slow the train, it didn't; they had to blow the air from the Caboose. Considering the damage to 1369, it seems possible that the cars behind it had not engaged their brakes, while thos in front of it had slowed.
-Hank
It's highly unlikely on a SMEE train. For this to happen
both the straight air, emergency and electric emergency
would all have to fail.
Without the air, on a hill, dynamics can't possibly hope to stop or slow the train sufficiently to prevent a collision. I recall a posting on how the brakes work on a subway train, but not the details. Perhaps the transit professional can shed some light.
-Hank
11/06/2000
Great additional photos.
Now, same location, conditions but one difference.
Equipment, how would this accident differ if Low-V's or Redbirds were involved instead of R-62's ?
Bill "Newkirk"
Any car from R12 up to R36 probably would have fared better in this crash. Lo-V's: Flivvers were flimsy; I think the Steinways and the WF Lo-V would have held up better, especially the WFs, which were almost like the R12. I think the R62's floors offer little or no resistance to side or lateral impact; look how #1437 split in two and #1440 was almost cut in half. #8884 - sure it was dented badly but it didn't break in two.
wayne
OUCH! What a mash! Car #1369 has joined her mates #1437 and #1440 that's for sure.
wayne
DAMN !! Instead of fixing the MVM's programming to stop the rip-offs they took away the trade-in option.
Since I get my Metrocard as part of my commutation ticket, my main source of special edition cards is gone!!!
I hope they reinstate it soon !!!
Rip-offs? What rip-offs?
On another note, a couple of years ago, I used the trade-in option on the MVMs while I was using my student MC to get around. I found MC's on the floor that had value still on them, usually 50¢ or $1.00 or something like that. I used the trade-in option and was able to increase the value of my pay-per-ride MC to $90.00 (not a typo)! Without the trade-in option on the MVMs, this wouldn't be possible, and my wallet would be full of MCs that have 50¢ or $1.00 or some other weird amount on them.
Rip-offs? What rip-offs?
Kids found out how to manupulate the machines to increase the value without paying for them, so that the MTA took the option away.
See the following
You can srill trade in your card! Just go to your friendly neighborhood Station Agent! We can still trade in cards when you come to the booth.
The station agent will just ask questions and call it a frivolous reason for trade ins.
With the number of times I've used that thing, I've never found even the slightest way of cheating the system, so it's not like the feature automatically allows cheating.
If they took it out temporarily while they work out the bug, fine. If they took it out permanently, their empty heads should roll.
FRIENDLY station agent??? HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
FRIENDLY station agent??? HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
That is certainly impolite!
I happen to know subway-buff, and if you say that to subway-buff's face, subway-buff will kick the crap out of you!
I will not kick him- in the face or anywhere. I appreciate the compliment but even though I disagree with him he has the right to his opinion. Please let's keep this out of flamage.
Subway buff, you are one of the few (AND I MEAN FEW) station agents that I have met who aren't totally miserable dregs of humanity. You and Tommy Crawford who used to be a shop steward.
11/06/2000
I guess somebody goofed when the MVM was developed to anticipate this kind of fleecing ! Do I detect some red faces ?
Bill "Newkirk"
No, programmers install backdoors whenever they design systems. Either for debugging, personal perks after their project is done, or a combination of the 2. Its like a cheat code for the real world. That's why my friend was able to get $120 worth of free stuff at Staples.com using seceret Coupon Codes. In the short run only the programmer or hi ranking staff will know the tricks, but it usually slips out and then you'll get a few weeks of "pillage while you can" before the MTA notices and catches on.
I have an idea that could improve service in south Brooklyn.
MORNING RUSH HOURS:
Q trains that stop on the A3 track at Brighton Beach would continue through Brigton Beach, make stops at Ocean Pkwy and West 8 Street, make a stop at Stillwell Avenue on track 1, then make all N stops from Stillwell Av to Kings Highway, then run express from Kings Highway to Pacific Street, go through the Montague Street tunnel, then up the Broadway Express to Queennsbridge. Transfers to the 6th Avenue Q are available at Pacific Street, DeKalb Avenue, and 34th Street.
EVENING RUSH HOURS:
Q trains that stop on the T1 track at 21 St-Queensbridge would run via the Broadway Express to Canal Street, then go via the Montegue Street tunnel, and Sea Beach Express to Kings Highway, then stop at Stillwell on Track 1, then proceed on the D line to Brighton Beach, making the stop at Ocean Parkway on the A4 track, then run normally uptown on 6th Avenue.
Might not happen since this plan makes too much sense for the MTA to comprehend.
You want 4 trains through the tunnel during rush hour then through the bottle neck at Dekalb.
Don't think that could happen.
What would you replace service with on the Brighton. The D is standing room only during rush now (at Kings HwY) you still have to move people that the Q moved.
You almost recreated the NX service that was canceled for low riddership (been there done that >G<).
I said the Q trains that stop on the A3 track at Brighton Beach would go the way I described. Q trains that stop on the A4 track would be unaffected. Same goes for the Queensbridge terminal.
[You almost recreated the NX service that was canceled for low ridership]
True, but the NX went nonstop from Stillwell to 59th Street. Having stops at 86 Street, Avenue U and Kings Hwy should boost ridership somewhat. When the south side tracks of the Manhattan Bridge open up again, DeKalb would be less of a bottleneck, the Broadway Q trains would skip DeKalb entirely the way the B trains do it now. N trains would most likely take the bridge, too. So the grand total diuring rush hours would be:
Bridge North: 3 (B, D, and 6th Av. Q)
Bridge South: 2 (N and B'way Q)
Montague St Tunnel: 2 (M and R)
Less of a problem, eh?
No, it isn't less of aproblem, because you're cutting Manhattan-bound Q service, via Brighton, in half, and the line is already standing room only, as Lou From Brooklyn has pointed out.
Sea Beach Service could be improved simply by adding a few more trains.
--Mark
Even skipping Dekalb is still a bottle neck. Trains bound for the bridge no matter which side (your plan assumes that both sides are open?) would have trains leaving Dekalb holding near the old Myrtle Ave stop as they do now for B trains.
You still have four trains in the tunnel and the slow crawl between Whitehall and Canal and those curves running three trains instead of the two (that is why they are called "N"ever and "R"arely).
With the current B division fleet level and max train per hour over the bridge/tunnel not to meantion the reduction of Brighton service (your cutting Q 6-8 min headway to 12-16 min during rush), and how many would reverse commute?
Good try though
Eliminating the M and replacing it with additional N and R trains would be an easy way to improve BOTH lines.
Sorry R36, but your plan stinks worse than 3 week old milk.
Got the new NJT timetables at Penn yesterday, at least the ones they had- there were no Morris & Essex or Northeast Corridor, which actually run out of Penn, but loads of Main/Bergen, Pascack and Boonton. Anywho, I noticed a very bizarre schedule on the Boonton for King and Presidents Days.
Three trains leave Hoboken at approximately 4:05, 5:05 and 6:05 AM (don't hold me to those times- I don't have the timetable in front of me.) and run local via Boonton to Lake Hopatcong. After a fifteen-minute hangover, each train retraces its route to Hoboken. Unless there's some huge mall around Hopatcong that's opening early on those days, or track work on the Morristown line (which I couldn't check due to lack to timetables for that branch), there doesn't seem to be any logical reason for this. There's one weekday early AM train from Hoboken to Hackettstown via Morristown for the benefit of those who reverse commute to the office complex at Mount Olive.
In any event, Boonton is primarily a peak-direction branch with very limited contra-flow service between Hoboken and Great Notch. So what gives?
NJT's website doesn't even let you view an entire branch's schedule the way LIRR, MN and SEPTA's do. All you can do is plug in the two stations you want to travel between. I prefer to see the 'big picture'.
On a side note, new LIRR schedules start a week from today, but as of yesterday, Penn still has the previous timetables from August 14. At least the new skeds are on the website.
I got to witness a funny argument between an LIRR ticket agent and passenger who was hellbent on buying a ticket to Hauppauge. Despite heated assertions from the agent and other passengers that she would have to go to Smithtown or Central Islip, she KNEW there's a Hauppauge station- she'd taken the train there many times before!
You have to see MetroNorth's new New Haven time table (went into effect Oct 29th I think). They have "Shopper Specials" listed in it in yellow. It is confusing as ususal with the "Will Operate except Presidentday" and "Will Not Operate except President Day". They also state a special time table for Nov 22 and Dec 23 to be published seperately.
Can't wait for LIRR Nov 13th new timetable.
The trip began Friday, November 3, waiting to board Amtrak's Keystone Train #645 scheduled to depart New York's Penn Station at 1:10 pm. Over the PA, waiting passengers were told of a "power failure in the tunnel," which was causing delays on 3 trains: A Northeast Direct to Washington, a Metroliner to the same city, and my Keystone Train to Harrisburg. We were finally able to board after a delay of about ½ hour, with the PA announcer suggesting that those Northeast Direct passengers with tickets to Philadelphia use the Keystone train. Apparently, the Northeast Direct train to Washington was about to be canceled.
Down the escalator I went. Fortunately, I was able to find a seat on one of the new Acela coach-class cars. From what I could tell, the other cars were the old "Northeast Direct" variety, with the orange paneling and red/brown seats. Finally, at about 1:45pm, we were on our way. Just south of Metropark, our train began to slow severely until finally coming to an unscheduled stop. Much to my surprise, the conductor announced that we were having "engine problems" and that we wouldn't be able to "do more than 80" and that we would not be able to make up any time to 30th Street Station. So after sitting for 5 minutes or so, on we slowly chugged.
At 30th Street, I stepped outside the train, like I usually do, to watch the engine switch. I noticed they have repainted the platform level of the station. It's no longer that pea green and cream color. Rather, it has been Acela-fied to a blue-gray with navy trim. And the track and location signs have been replaced with similarly colored, sleek LED display signs, most of which were not yet operational. IMO, this is an improvement. More surprising, however, was the revelation that our consist had been powered with a brand new HHP locomotive, #656. (I expect #656 is now at Wilmington being serviced!) I also noticed that our Friday night train was 4 cars long, not the usual 3, and that the last car was a Metroliner coach. This occasionally happens on Keystone trains, and I kicked myself for not walking back at Penn to take advantage of a Metroliner seat for discounted coach-class fare. Maybe next time. I then made my way to the north side of the station to see what power we would have heading west. Awwww, it was a diesel. At least it was one of the new, sleak looking, streamlined ones. (Not a huge fan of diesel power, I hesitate to make an attempt at identification, but I think it was one of those "FHP-something-or-others.")
Back on the train, and we were on our way to 'the burg.' It was already dark, so sight-seeing was out of the question until we passed the red and blue runway lights of the Harrisburg International Airport. An Air Ontario turboprop took off just as we passed, and we raced together for a mile or so before the small plane beat us out and flew out of sight. I began to dream of the station that will be built there, wondering why it has taken so long for this idea to come to fruition. The tracks, after all, run right by. After this reverie, we arrived at the Harrisburg Transportation Center (formerly Harrisburg's Penn Station).
I'm off the train now, and I have some time to kill before my ride to the West Shore, so I decide to walk down and take a look at the GG-1. There it sat, on the track adjacent to the one on which I arrived, looking only a bit majestic, but mostly forlorn in its black-with-gold-pinstriping Art-Deco livery. This is the way it looked in 1938 on the inaugural run between Philadelphia and Harrisburg. I found myself wishing I had brought my camera, until I remembered that it was dark, and that I would have had to drag along a tripod in order to get the potentially great shot of the Amtrak loco that brought me sitting beside the 'G'. But this was a quick, weekend, backpack trip, so no camera.
I soon turned my attention to the westbound Three Rivers, which had pulled into the track across the platform, the only high platform at the station. There it sat, with its 2 Heritage Sleepers, a couple of coaches, and a zillion boxcars and road-railers. It made me happy to see many of the drawing rooms occupied, mostly with elderly travelers, I might add. After a few minutes, the Amtrak Freight was on its way to Pittsburgh, probably the last time it would be anywhere near on-schedule. I then turned my attention to 645, which was in the process of backing itself onto the Cumberland Valley Railroad Bridge wye to turn itself (probably into 616) for the return trip to 30th Street. I hung around till it backed through the station, then went up to meet my ride (Dad). As I waited, I stood to the south of the station at street level, where there is a good view down to the platform area beneath the train sheds. I watched 616 pull out, as well as a couple of NS freights, which run on tracks just past the Amtrak platforms.
Saturday morning. At about 8:30 am, Dad and I hop in the car for the trip to Rockhill Furnace. We're off to help with some track work. About 20 or so ties on the 2 tracks in front of Car Barn 1 have to be replaced. We arrive in time to see several of the guys surrounding our tie-nipper, spiking the rails into the ties. Dad and I soon begin to help ballast and tamp the new ties on the 1st of the 3 tracks being worked-on, the unpowered 'caboose track.' The track runs to the right of CB1, and is used to store 2 ex-PRR / Conrail cabooses, and which are used occasionally for sleeping when crews stay overnight. This ballast work was broken up by 2 or 3 trips to refill our ballast dumper. After about 5 hours, we were finished, having ballasted, tamped, and swept a total of about 30 feet of new track. We were ready to celebrate with a ride out to the end of the line on Johnstown Traction #311. This was followed by a short hike to the end of the ROW where it meets Rte. 522. The plan is to add another 1000 feet to the end of the line, which will still leave plenty of the Shade Gap Electric Railway yet untracked. (Sadly, the topography, with a steep rockface on one side and a creek on the other, leaves no room for a loop. All our cars that aren't double-ended must have front-poles added for this reason.) With one ballast dumper and one small Bobcat, this extra 1000 feet will take forever to track! There was much discussion of this, but also about how the ballast dumper is a great timesaver compared to the old method: buncha guys with shovels. Back we went to CB1, and dad and I were on our way back home. We had theatre tickets for that evening's performance at Theatre Harrisburg, located at the brand new Whitaker Center for the Arts, a jewel of the ongoing and unexpectedly successful revival of downtown.
Sunday. After resting my sore back and watching the Eagles eek out the win over the dreaded 'boys from Dallas, it was time for the return trip to NYP on Amtrak's 654. Surprise! The westbound Three Rivers was there again, this time with a Viewliner, a couple of coaches, and a zillion boxcars and roadrailers. After taking one last look at the 'G', I boarded my Acela coach class car (no Metroliner coach this time) and we headed on our way to 30th Street, still powered by a diesel. I noticed the roadrailer facility and its switcher loco just before we pulled onto the Main Line and picked up speed on our way to Middletown. Dark again, so sights were obscured, and an uneventful ride to Philly ensued, until...
Upon entering yard at 30th Street, imagine my delight as I caught a glimpse of the 2 Acela Express trainsets about 10 tracks away on our right. There sat the 2 locomotives, one missing its nosecone, with the coaches behind, all lit up and looking out-of-place in the 20th Century trainyard. A better end to a fantrip weekend could not be had, so after watching them switch to the AEM7 power (in front of several coaches being deadheaded to Sunnyside for servicing) I settled in for the trip back to Penn Station.
Nice trip report, Acela's nosecone has to me removed for it to couple to conventional equipment. Matter of fact I saw one operating in Metro North New Haven territory southbound on the local track on my way up to Branford for trackwork 9am-ish Sunday.
Replaced about 20 ties but we don't have a machine. A crew removed the old tie and placed the new one, second crew tampped and spiked the rail to the tie and a third resecured the guard rail around the curve (that was removed a few days prior) all of this with normal operations on a 1/2 hour headway.
A great day to be in the CT woods (well it did get cold and rainy towards the end).
Spikeing was done with an air compressor and spike gun (almost a jack hammer type thing but I was on the tie crew).
Yeah, we put in some grueling tie-replacement work (Lou, Thurston, Stef and I) near the Quary Trestle curve of BERA. It was tough going at first, but we later "got into a groove" where Stef and Lou pulled and spotted the tie, and Thurston and I tamped and hammered them to the rails (both by hand and with the hydraulic-jack). It wasn't as fun as running a car down the line, but we all realize that it's necessary work so we can later enjoy the curve w/o worrying about the strain on the guard rail.
BTW, we saw the Acela heading toward NY at around 9:15 as we were heading eastbound on 95.
BMTman
Both EBT and the Rockhill museum are closed for the season, so we did not have to contend with operations. Besides, we were on the barn tracks, not the main line. The old ties had been dug out during the week and the new ties placed under the rails by arrangement with the Huntington State Correctional Facility -- a prisoner work program. (We have nothing but good things to report about these guys, BTW.) All we had to do was spike, ballast, tamp, and sweep. All the tie-nipper does is grab the tie with a pair of tongs hung from a small, crane-like structure, bracing itslef with 2 shoes on the rails. Then, a motor pulls the tie flush to the rail for spiking, leaving a couple of inches of space beneath the tie for tamping, later. It was specially designed for the job by one of the members. Then, holes are drilled in the ties and spikes set using a small mallet. Then, a jack-hammer-like spike-gun finishes the job, with power provided via our compressor on work-car 64 and rubber hoses. Next, our ballast dumper rolls in (also custom-designed). It has 3 small trap doors on the tailgate which, when opened, allow for speed-controlled distribution of the stones. Some pre-tamping is done with shovels, and then the compressed-air jackhammer-like tampers begin. Once the tamping ceases, the ballast is shoveled down to just below tie-level, and the ties and rails swept clean.
I can't wait to visit Branford. Rockhill's on a much smaller scale than there and Seashore, obviously, but it still need the same care! Sounds like it was a weekend for trackwork. Cheers, fellas!
We are not ballasted in the curve or for most of the line outside of the yard.
The tie crew just takes a pick and cuts around the tie, digs a small trench in on the side that the tie will be pulled out. Pull the old spikes, raise the track with track jacks and pull the tie. Clean out the old tie "hole" and pull in the new tie. We used four track jacks so we could move on to the next rotted tie and the spike guys could do what they wanted. It was intresting to learn this "age old" method of tie replacement.
In our case, the car-barn leads had several ties in succession which needed to be replaced. Also, they had previously been dirt-ballasted and we wanted to stone-ballast them. That's why 12-15 tie-lengths of track was dug out completely. I'm not sure how individual ties might be replaced, as this was my first time on track work. I too thought about the fact that I was performing an age-old rite of railroading.
On a side note, I forgot to mention in my original post that I caught a glimpse of the new cars (M-whatevers) southbound on the MFL el in North Philly. They looked nice and gleaming new from the view out my train window, and they still had those bumps on the top, but the "bumps" were wider than the ones on the old cars, like the ones in the movie "Rocky." Iguess these bumps are air conditioning units or something. Anyway, if I'm guessing right, these bumps are why they were called "Almond Joys"--cause in that commercial, the chocolate was poured over the almonds and made bumps on the top of the candy bar. Or am I way off?
>>>"Almond Joys"--cause in that commercial, the chocolate was poured over the almonds and made bumps on the top of the candy bar. Or am I way off? <<<
Nope, right on target.
Peace,
ANDEE
The new M-4 cars are "Mounds".
Yesterday, a woman and her fold-up shopping cart got onto the Manhattan-bound 'D' at Cortelyou.
You guessed it- off at Beverly! Considering all the hassle getting the cart up and down the stairs, wouldn't it be much easier just to PUSH it a block along East 16th Street?
Later, a large, rowdy group of teenaged Goths of indecipherable gender got on an uptown '2' (unfortunately rerouted local!) at 18th Street. It took awhile, because one held the door open for its friends for what seemed like several minutes.
All off at 23rd.
Several people I know will take the subway from Penn to PA.
About the woman getting on at Cortelyou to get off at Beverley: it is a sign that the subways, or the Brighton trains at least, are safe and nice to ride.
Or maybe she liked the R-68s.:-)
When my sister was a student at FIT, I'd come down from Connecticut and see her every few weeks. Cityana Gallery was doing brisk business at the time, and it would a three-train hop from there to her dorm on W. 27th St.: F to 42nd St. (two stops); change to the 7 to Times Square (1 stop); change to the 1 to 28th St. (2 stops). During one visit, I ended up taking a total of ten trains for a couple of stops at a time in the space of a few hours.
I like the R68s, too. I guess that means trouble for me with many other SubTalkers.
I don't hold that against you.:-)
I think I've made my feelings about the R-68s known, but I'm not going to beat that dead horse (water buffalo) any longer.
Who wouldn't?
running on...
Or it could be that Brighton riders are just lazy and dumb--you ever thought of that?
#4 Sea Beach Fred:
It seems like some people are really lazy if there only going to take the subway for just one measly stop. On the other hand if the distance between 2 stops is 3.6 miles which is the case between Howard Beach and Broad Channel on the "A" line then you're not being laz`y for taking the subway for just one stop.
BMTJeff
In that case, maybe it's because they don't want to SWIM!!!
Steve Hoskins:
Not only wouldn't you want to swim there. It is also marshland in that area some of that enviromentally sensitive.
BMTJeff
Now, now Fred, just because the number of Brighton riders is an order of magnitude higher than the number of Sea Beach riders there is no reason to be jealous.
--Harry
Oh no, Q, that's not right at all. The fact is we may have less riders but ours are energetic and alert. Remember, our riders are quality riders, and quality always beats quantity.
Well. I've seen people taking a local bus for one stop (2 blocks) .
Arti
Maybe they have arthritis.
What Bob says could be true. My personal favorites are the obviously healthy people who knock over 5 or 6 people to get a seat and THEN get off at the next stop. This type of behaviour is most frequently seen of the 6TH Ave IND, middays, between 34th and 42nd or 42nd and 47/50th and vice versa.
Peace,
ANDEE
There is a subway that goes from Penn Station to Pennsylvania???
PA = Port Authority (as in Bus Terminal....)
Only if you count the New York-Pittsburg Subway.
I wouldn't begrudge anyone taking the subway from Penn to the Port Authority. After dark, the stretch along 8th Avenue from 34th to 40th is not among Manhattan's safest.
Chuck
And maybe the person got on at 34th St., took the train to 42nd, and then transfered to the 7 or S or N/R. I'd get on the subway for one stop if I was transferring. 34th/42nd is a bad example. The Cortelyou/Beverley road example, well, that's probably just easier to walk.
As another example, when I used to live near Columbus Circle and was coming uptown from Penn Station and headed home, it made sense to wait on the uptown local platform. If a E came in, then I'd take it to 42nd and wait for either an A or a C up to 59th. That you can't easily transfer between the uptown local and express platforms at Penn on the A/C/E is rather annoying.
This all got me to thinking about one-stop rides for which nobody could accuse you of laziness. Broad Channel to Howard Beach is obviously one, as well as those where the alternative is swimming across the East River. Lex/63 to 57/6th (or 7th) is another.
Chuck
On SEPTA I would frequently change at City Hall from the MFL and get on a BSS express train that would terminate one stop later at Walnut/Locust so I could transfer to PATCO. I always felt a little odd being the only one getting on the express.
On SEPTA I would frequently change at City Hall from the MFL and get on a BSS express train that would terminate one stop later at Walnut/Locust so I could transfer to PATCO.
I've done that, too, but only if I hadn't ridden the BSS for a while.
If you try to catch PATCO at 8th you'll never get a railfan friendly seat.
Depending on time of day, sometimes the T/O seat in the last car is available. The T/O side windows now have locks on them; I used to photograph through the open window to avoid color distortion before the window locks were installed.
BTW, great response to the off-topic vocabulary thread post. :)
Maybe....MAYBE, she got on the train and realize she'd left something back at the first staion and was going to try and go back and retrieve it.
I got on the D or B (I didn't care either way, but I'd notice an R-40!) from 34th to 42nd. I didn't have enough time to walk and I could make it on time if I took the chance to take the train.
I already had already started a fun pass, I didn't sit down.
Does anyone know why the LIRR stopped service beyond West Hempstead?
Was there service beyond West Hempstead on that line?(forgive my ignorance)
Yes, looped around to Country Life Press; this ended in the 1940s or 1950s. Tracks remained for non-revenue service to probably around 1960.
wayne
A former LIRR conductor once told me that he remembered one or two times when the tracks were used for reroutes of passenger trains in the very early 1960's.
Well, what happened was that New York City Grew in importance, while the need for local (Long Island) focused service gave way to the automobile.
If memory serves me right, the service in question would have run from Far Rockaway across the LIRR Rockaway branch on up to West Hempstead and thence on to the Oyster Bay line.
So I do not believe there is very much that is not being covered now, but that p[articular route did not seem to be worth running.
Elias
The West Hempstead to Mineola connector was closed at least as early as the 30's. It served no real purpose back then, although it would today. In anycase, I don't believe it ever connected to the Oyster Bay line.
Ironically, I believe an AAA office now sits over the ROW, and much of the ROW through Garden city is a paraking lot. I'm not sure if the LIRR still has rights to it though.
Looks like it to me,
and that is what I have heard.
Here is the map: http://www.lirrhistory.com/Images/1900LIRR.jpg
Elias
The cutoff at Mineola S/B to Country Life, then to either Hempstead, West Hempstead, or the Central Branch was just W/O the Nassau Tower and the Main Street Crossing. There was no crossing at grade over the Main Line tracks to the O.B. Line. For a train to go from West Hempstead to Oyster Bay it would have had to use the Main Line Tracks in Mineola as a wye!!!
By the way, I'm showing my age but I definitely remember the RR crossing over Hempstead Turnpike in West Hempstead. It was right next to the White Castle which was further West than it is today, next to Ihop. There were no crossing gates there, just a:
[There was no crossing at grade over the Main Line tracks to the O.B. Line. For a train to go from West Hempstead to Oyster Bay it would have had to use the Main Line Tracks in Mineola as a wye!!!]
Not true, Sarge. There was a direct connecting track between the West Hempstead and Oyster Bay lines. It was taken out in 1926. The platform for the Mineola Station prior to 1923 sat in the triangle formed by the Main Line and the westbound and northbound tracks from West Hempstead.
Wasn't there an "X" or Diamond crossover north of Country Life Press which would have meant through access from Hempstead to Mineola? If there was, when was it removed? I seem to remember a 90degree cross there plus all four switches, or at least three (the NW corner one I am not sure of; the other three for sure, the SW one is in use today)
These are from old maps my Mom & Dad had.
wayne
the ""hempstead station"" (lirr) is being rebuilt have you seen it ?
Not yet, Salaam. Don't have much occasion to go to Hempstead, but I might take a ride over there and see what's happening. They did the bus station over back about five years ago.
wayne
I sometimes pass it on the way to Rolling Thunder Cycles, (plug plug :) but not often. It's getting there, though. Looks nice.
Good choice, Phil. Rolling Thunder is probably the best on LI for Harley Servicing. I bring my bike there. They are alot more honest than any Harley dealer, especially Hempstead HD, just a few blocks N/O Rolling Thunder. And the owner, Gerard is very knowlegable in bike mechanics.
Heh. Ask him about me next time you're there >:)
I'm one of the more notorious regulars.
Bob (in the back) built the current 96 inch motor I've got, and he gets to tear into it again this winter (MORE POWER!!! >:)
I'm in most weekends. My '99 FXDWG is currently being painted, the bike's at home though....
Hempstead gets occasional vists by me, most recently for a run on the dyno there (85hp at the rear wheel). Not for service though...
Actually, with the expection of Hartford HD, I never let anyone else touch my bike, and Hartford only because they're close and decent enough to not blow everything up.
Rolling Thunder Cycles? Sounds like a description of the R-10s to me.:-) You sure could hear rolling thunder whether you were riding on them or watching them roar by.
The new bus terminal is well over 5 years old. It was built over 15 years ago.
I stayed at the best western hotel walking distance from there the hempstead station which is under re-construction adding new track, a new rebuilt station etc, it was my connection to nyc via the jamaca station atlantic station woodside for the # 7 .
Here is some details from this web page about the extension:
http://www.lirrhistory.com/minwhemp.html
I don't know how many of you are familiar with the Straphangers' Campaign. I assume many of you are, but for those who may not be, these are folks who do a pretty good job of collecting information, analyzing it, and then lobbying, jumping up and down, yelling, screaming and doing whatever else is necessary to hold MTA accountable for its actions.
They've got some good info on the Bond Act (both pro and con) - check out www.straphangers.org. Also, see www.bettertransit.org
I don't know how many of you are familiar with the Straphangers' Campaign. I assume many of you are, but for those who may not be, these are folks who do a pretty good job of collecting information, analyzing it, and then lobbying, jumping up and down, yelling, screaming and doing whatever else is necessary to hold MTA accountable for its actions.
Actually, I'd say that the Straphangers do a pretty good job of whining and moaning, while accomplishing nothing ...
The Straphangers blew a gasket when the MTA capital plan was approved, and for good reason. They lost, and so did we.
Since then, they have decided to support the bond act, bad as it is, because they are afraid that if it fails the politicians will use it as an excuse not to invest in transit.
They are wrong. If the bond act passes, and when the improvments are not forthcoming after 2004, it will forever destroy the credibility of those who propose such improvements.
Wasn't the TA's (or its predecessor's) credibility pretty much shot after they promised to replace the Third Avenue Elevated with the 2nd Avenue Subway 50+ years ago? Even if it's spelled out to the letter what the dough will be used for, I have serious reservations about whether what they say they'll do is what will be done. Also, you never know what economic downturns are just around the corner. I think we all can see that the "irrational exuberance" of the dot-com 90's is waning. These budget surpluses may disappear faster than we think.
heypaul sighted among campfollowers of biggie politicos entourage...
avid
I am planning to visit the CSX/NS kearney intermodal yard tomorrow via PATH and bike and I was wondering what the frequency of trains going in and out of that yard is. Is there any interesting part of the yard I should visit? Also, how can I get to the NYCH Greenville yard in Bayonne via HBLR and bike?
Thanks
Dan
Is that pronounced Key-er-ney are Car-ney. In South Jersey we say Key-er-ney because of the ever popular Carneys Point, NJ (near Du Pont and the Twin Bridges) and we don't wish to confus the 2. However I have been corrected by self proclaimed "locals" who obviously don't know what they are talking about.
Here it is Car-ney
Are there T/Os whose sole job is to move revenue trains between yards or shops? Or, do regular T/Os get assigned for a certain period of time to do non revenue runs?
Those are not T/O's those a Hostlers (or however you spell it). In the railroad indusry those are the worst jobs and usually assigned to trainees or very Jr. men.
They're not always known as "Hostlers".
These jobs are not always the worst jobs.
These jobs don't always go to the trainees or junior men.
Some engine personnel prefer to do these sorts of assignments. I know of an Amtrak engineer with quite a lot of seniority, he's working this very sort of job in Los Angeles. Why? He likes the hours of the assignments, and he doesn't have to go on the road and deal with schedules, grade crossings, freights in the way, etc. I've known this guy for about 12 years now, and he's been a LOT happier since he has been on the afternoon "yard job". He does what, on a lot of roads, IS known as a "Hostler" job -- moving engines from the yard to the station, as well as passenger cars.
I also know another guy who was with Southern Pacific for about 20 years. He'd take a hostling job just so he could be home in his own bed every night. And he said it was a LOT less work than being out on the main handling heavy freights. (Once UP took over, he took retirement!!!) I'd visit the yard and have lunch with him on occasion, and most of the time, my friend and the other hostler job people there were sitting around in an air conditioned, somewhat quiet, room playing cards. (This was at a VERY busy yard area, too. They got their work done and relaxed the rest of their shifts. Hardly one of the "worst" jobs!)
I was thinking that it would be an easier job. You don't have to deal with annoying passengers and all that other mess. Every job I had where I didn't work directly with the customer was a helluva lot better and easier.
In the railroad industry they may be the worst jobs but in the TA they are coveted jobs.
Right, cause you don't have to be bothered with the public.
In a lot of railroads, you start off in the assistant engineer or hostler titles because you have to be promoted to engineer before you can handle the mainline with a train. It all depends on the C.B.A.
Wouldn't that also be known as a Miscellenous T/O? I've seen the logo and wording on the jacket of a NYCT T/O recently.
BMTman
A train operator who works within a single yard is called a switchman. The switchman works the yard as well as the barn. The switchman does not work in passenger(road) service.
The shops(called Main shop) are located in 207 St. Yard and Coney Island Yard(both yards have a barn and a shop) and perform major work that a regular barn cannot handle. They work on all cars coming from all divisions. The main shop jobs are restricted to T/O's who are miscellaneous qualified(work trains).
Train operators who move equipment from one yard to a different yard are normally assigned off the "miscellaneous transfer" list. Misc.Transfer men normally only do transfers but can also perform other work. They are work train qualified(hence the word miscellaneous) but anyone who is not work train qualified can perform a transfer as long as it's a revenue train(i.e. R32,R38,etc.) and as long as the train has no speed restrictions or any other restrictions attached to it. Speed restriction meaning that the consist can only attain a maximum speed at a reduced level(i.e.20 mph maximum).
A T/O who wishes to pick miscellaneous(transfer or work train extra) has to have at least 2 years in title minimum to pick an available slot. T/O's with less time usually do not get the slots as they are all taken by the time they pick a job. When a junior man picks misc., he usually has Tuesday/Wednesday off for the entire pick. To get part of the weekend off(Fri/Sat or Sun/Mon), you need at least 10 years in title on the PM or Midnight shift. 15 years on the AM shift.
A T/O who is assigned a job as a switchman(either station switching or yard) or on a work train on that day will not perform road duties.
The large majority of road T/O jobs perform no yard switching duties.However, some road train operator jobs also perform yard switching duties as well as passenger service duties within the same day but there are very few of them available. The majority of these jobs are on the M line and come out of Coney Island Yard(only the T/O's that start on the CI end and not the Met.Av.end). They do one round trip on the M and then perform yard duties after their trip is completed. There are also special jobs called V jobs. The B,D,E,F,J,M,N,Q and R lines have assigned V jobs available. These jobs also make one round trip on average and then either work the yard or perform station switching duties. A station switchman's job is 90% relaying trains(Continental Av,205 St are two such locations where sta.sw'man relay trains) and 10% laying up or putting in trains(usually one or two a day total).
All station switching and yard switching jobs and the majority of miscellaneous transfer jobs are high seniority positions. Work train jobs are available to most T/O's but most of the better assignments go to the senior men and the junior men get the crappy jobs.
Thanks, that answers my question perfectly.
You ought to come check out the IRT Misc Extra list on the PMs. There are anumber of people who just barely have a year in a title with these jobs (with T/W off - can't argue that). This pick I'm working Midnights ( 4 at VC, 1 at White Plains) and on Thurs and Fri, I do one trip, a put-in from the yard, lunch, and two more trips.
I say that the M-7's should look like the R46's
Does anybody know what was the "MM" route was going to be plan back during the pre-Chrystie St connection, when it was never planed?
Could someone give me the exact plan what line was it going to run?
Peanut or plain?
CRISPY! and NO GREEN ONES.
LOL
wayne :o>
The MM was suppose to operate between Metropolitan Avenue and 57 street 6 avenue. As a matter of fact, some morning KK/K train did this for years [even though it wasnt on the strip maps]
I have a photo of a train layed up somewhere in Brooklyn and the rool sign on the front says MM in green with a white circle around the MM.
As for morons like jdl, all you need to know is he/she/it is a coward that refuses to put a link to his email box. He/she/it refuses to allow anyone to reply to him directly regarding his foolish replies to peoples postings.
How are we doing with another handle Adam?
To add to what correct information that kamehame777 has given:
The "MM" route was supposed to be a NON-RUSH-HOUR/Midday route, similar to what the "EE" was at the time (the "EE" DID run during rush hours); between Metropolitan Avenue and 57th St-6th Avenue. It was to be a Mon-Fri Midday service, with the "KK" and "M" as its rush-hour complements. In other words, it would have combined the "M" and "KK" services and operated between the other two services. The signs were GREEN, like the "CC", "GG" and "RR" and appeared on the front & side curtains on R16 cars, on the front curtains on R32 and R38 cars AND on front and oilcloth signs on the R-7a and R-9 cars assigned to the Eastern Division. The "MM" curtain sign did NOT appear in the R42 cars delivered in 1969 and 1970.
wayne
This Friday, "Veterans' Day Observed" is one of those rare days where many people have the day off, but the system is running on a weekday schedule (though as Subway-Buff pointed out, the trains may be, but not all support functions do). An excellent opportunity to ride weekday routes for those of us who usually can't come to the city on weekdays. Your reporter will be working live from the WCBS Weather Center in Manhattan 5-10am and 4-7pm.
During my midday break, I will get as much use out of my FunPass as possible. I hope to see many of you at the STORMFAN WINDOW. If today's weather maps are right, we'll wish there were windshield wipers on it!
Hey! Long time no post! Welcome back! Where'd the traffic sign go?
running on...
I posted just a few days ago in response to a question about the Boston T.
The transit & weather together graphic is alive and well, but out-of-service for a 15-day test :-)
Hah, I'm not off. I'm not off Today Tuesday when the rest of the city offices are closed.
The Teachers gave back today so I get it as a "floating" holiday for use at my mangament call (the kids are off but teachers are in training).
Friday I have to work, the rules governing holdiays at the Board state if the holiday falls on a Satruday we lose it. We didn't get July 4th off two years ago becasuse of this.
So Todd, ,I'll have WCBS on in the office 8:30 - 10, hope to hear from you.
Now I'll get off my soap box.
Will be nice to know the face behind the friendly voice Friday. I hope your Fun Pass brings you plunty of that !
Mr t__:^)
Add 6336-40 to the list. The Linden Yard Transfer just passed Jackson Av 5 mins ago on the way north to East 180th Street Yard. N1 and N2 as always pulling the consist, with Loco 73 on the end. Loco 73 has some important significance because it once pulled another familiar group of cars, the R-110A, 8006-8010. That was 8 years ago....
-Stef
As I was watching this new hit show, I wondered if any of the filming was actually done in Boston. My guess now is no, since when showing a "Boston neighborhood" scene, an LIRR train went by! Even a non-transit fan that I watched the show with noticed this blunder! -Nick
I noticed the mistake, too. Why do they have a TV show called Boston Public when you're showing a scene from New York? If it were me selecting scenes for the show, I'd use a Red Line train (You know, where the train is going over the bridge?) I'm not from Boston, and I've never been there, but I think I know that the lines have cars on the same line have the same color band running down the sides of the cars.
If it were me selecting scenes for the show, I'd use a Red Line train (You know, where the train is going over the bridge?)
Remember the series 'Spencer for Hire'? It was based in Boston and it had Red line cars on the bridge !!
But "Spencer for Hire" was filmed ON LOCATION in Boston. You can recognize street scenes clearly (it was one of my favorite PI shows). Are you sure that "Boston Public" is even shot in Boston? Could be one of those LA jobs pretending to be the locale in question.
BMTman
True !!
I watched it for the first time last night. They use Boston skyline scenes from "The Practice".
I'm sure it is not filmed on location, but that is no excuse. If you are going to do a show about Boston and want to show some trains, show "T" related material. Otherwise, simply keep transit out of it. -Nick
The average person watching the show doesn't give a good goddamn.
-Hank
I take the movie shoots with all the mistakes; it gives US folks that much more to talk about.
Joe C.
Agreed. However, if a show such as "Boston Public" is going to do a segment BASED around something happenning in the subway system then they owe it to the viewers to do "their homework" and get things as accurate as possible.
On the other hand, if there's a quick shot of a train going by used as a segway to another scene -- who cares (which sounds like what was done in this case).
BMTman
Will you ever forget Hawk's (Avery Brooks) pronunciation in his ominous voice of Spenser's name?
Hawk's opening line always seemed to be S P E N - S A H!
It was enough to give you chills!
I think the whole show, including the interiors was filmed entirely in Boston and its surburbs. It was a great show, too bad it did not get better ratings.
Yeah, I had almost forgot that Avery Brooks had his own spin-off show "Hawk" that was equally as good as "Spencer". Most people just think of Brooks as Cmdr. Sisko from "Star Trek: Deep Space Nine".
Funny thing: I had a close encounter with Avery Brooks once in Manhattan (this was around 1988). I was in a card store on Park Avenue (near 19th Street) and he was standing right in front of me on the cashier's line! As he exited the store, the cashier had an inkling that she thought the man who had just left was an actor, so I told her that her hunch was right!
BMTman
Yeah, I had almost forgot that Avery Brooks had his own spin-off show "Hawk" that was equally as good as "Spencer". Most people just think of Brooks as Cmdr. Sisko from "Star Trek: Deep Space Nine"
A friend right here in town has every Spenser show on tape, He says there were about 60 of them. I have been tempted to borrow them and try to watch them all again. Although Boston transit is shown in a number of shows, I don't believe that Hawk or Spenser are ever shown on a train.
CHEERS also used a stock transitional shot between scenes of the Red Line crossing the bridge over the river and Storrow Drive. When I was in Boston in 1988, I went nuts trying to find that location.
SAINT ELSEWHERE used a project by the defunct Washington el (before the Orange Line was put in a trench with MBTA and Amtrak) to masquerade as the hospital. The el must have been torn down around 1987, because columnists in the Globe were still decrying how the largely minority neighborhoods along its path were left without decent service.
They probably couldn't find housing for the cast and crew in Boston.
:-)
-- David
Chicago, IL
Car number 9373. Train was westbound. Did anyone recognize the area where the filming took place?
It's called 'Stock Footage' and likely saved the production company 10K.
-Hank
Just like Stigmata (Sp?) used footage from Money Train for the head end shot and the red birds entering the station.
Just like Stigmata (Sp?) used footage from Money Train for the head end shot and the red birds entering the station.
Not to mention the fact that Stigmata, with its lengthy subway scene, was set in subway-less Pittsburgh.
Not to mention the fact that Stigmata, with its lengthy subway scene, was set in subway-less Pittsburgh.
The last time I was in Pittsburgh (several years ago), Pittsburgh had a subway with light rail cars running in it.
If people can base shows in NYC and use Chicago or Toronto transit clips, I guess this is only fair!
After having deliberated for several months on this important issue and having read virtually every SubTalk posting on the matter, I have decided to vote NO on the Transportation Bond Issue. As dearly as I want the Second Avenue Subway and the LIRR connection to GCT, the new subway cars, et alia, my firm decision is that a bond issue is not the way to accomplish these goals. We voters can continue to pressure the authorities to begin funding these projects as ordinary measures, not extraordinary ones. Let's see how many share this opinion tomorrow. The breakout of the stats on the vote in MTA-taxed counties should be available before week's end, and that could prove to be most interesting. Thanks to all of you who took the time to post on this substantial matter.
For the first time in over 20 years of teaching my mother is beinf forced to attend the lamo NJEA Teacher's Concention at the new Atlantic City Convention Centre. Because the Centre is built adjacent to the Atlantic City passenger station NJT is running special Teachers Express trains, which my mom intends to use. She it not a railfan, but I have instructed her to note how often the train is delayed in a passing siding to wait for the oncomming train and to try and judge the maximum speed of the train. I will report back to all of you w/ the results of my experiment.
I had the opportunity, and just finished reading the book "Brooklyn's Waterfront Railways" by Jay Bendersky. A relatively short (64 pages) soft cover book, it tells the story, mainly in pictures, of railcar handling and carfloat operations along Brooklyn's waterfront. I was surprised to see that the book has been out awhile (published in 1988). I spent a number of years in Brooklyn, but knew very little about this subject. I learned a lot from this book, and wonder if many other SubTalkers are familiar with it. I also noticed that SubTalk's own Bill Newkirk took a number of the pictures that are published in it.
If you haven't read it, I think you will find it a very interesting book.
I've read that book and it is quite interesting. I have some current photos from the New York Cross Harbor RR at nyrail.cjb.net, but none of the oled systems like NY Dock Railways or Brooklyn East District Terminal.
Dan
Yeah, Karl, I'm quite familiar with the Bush Terminal area of Brooklyn. Even though the book was written awhile ago, much of the street trackage is still there (some sections have been abandoned since the publishing of "Brooklyn's Waterfront Railways").
The Transit Museum featured two walking tours of just about everything featured in the Jay Bendersky book. One was in June, and the other was held just last month. The South Brooklyn Interchange yard @ 39th Street and 2nd Avenue was the main feature at the beginning of the trip. The tour then went down 2nd to 41st Street (to view the trackage turning under the Bush Terminal Building), then processed along 1st Avenue (to visit New York Cross Harbor RR ops) and finishing in the Brooklyn Army Terminal facilities.
If there is enough SubTalk interest, I would be happy to conduct one of the tours before it gets too cold.
BMTman
If there is enough SubTalk interest
I bet there is.
Bob
I must agree, the transit musuem had an excellent tour guide on both those tours even if the Subtalk tour could get 25% of what was shown on the Musuem tour would be excellent.
I forget who gave the tour, it is in the musuem's news letter, he was a Transportation Expert if ya ask me.
LOL
Sign me up, ol' buddy!!!
-Stef
I've been to all the Brooklyn Terminal areas SBK interchange yard to 63rd St. Yard by myself, but I would like to take a tour and learn more.
Dan
Dan, I will be posting information here in a couple of days regarding a tour of the Bush Terminal area.
BMTman
...regarding a tour of the Bush Terminal area.
Hey Doug,
Let's cut out these off-topic political posts. :)
Bob
Good one, Bob! LOL
Make sure you tell Dave Pirman to post it to coming events unlike other past field trips that PEOPLE did here lately.
BTW, those on the SI trip please send me your scanned photos so Lou or I can do a write up for this site.
Mr t__:^)
Thurston -- thanks for the wake-up call on the Staten Island trip.
Unfortunately, you will have to settle for a disc of the images as I am unable to send attachments as of late.
Doug
Doug, If I was twenty years younger and 200 miles closer I would be the first to sign up. I guess I will have to be satisfied with reading the posts afterward if they appear on SubTalk.
Do you happen to know the story behind the dedication in the book? It must be a rather sad one!
11/07/2000
[Do you happen to know the story behind the dedication in the book? It must be a rather sad one!]
Yes Karl, very sad indeed. Jay is a good friend of mine and he told me of his closeness with his then girlfriend Rosemarie.
Rosemarie and her family perished in a house fire some years ago. She tagged along for some photography excursions for some photos that would end up in his book. So he felt it was best to dedicate the book to her memory. I know how he feels, since I too lost a fiance in a car accident. Time goes on, but you never forget.
Bill "Newkirk"
Thanks for the explanation Bill!
Death seems to be so much harder to accept when the person is young and just starting out in life. It has been forty years and I still think of my college roommate and best friend.
A work train came by just a couple of minutes ago with a peculiar item(s) to be found on a flat car. MVM's are taking trips to their new homes along the White Plains and Dyre Av Lines. Some crews were working this evening at my home station and were apparently getting ready for the MVM's arrival. As it turns out, workers made a cut through the steel wall separating the platform from the steps that take us up from street level, the MVM will come off the flat car and get unloaded on the platform. It will then be brought through the wall and brought in by the station's entry way. MVMs should be in during the course of the week along the 2 and 5.
-Stef
Sorry Stef, all you're in for is about 4 weeks of looking at non-working MVM's with paper "TESTING" signs covering their touch screens. But hang in there you'll have them eventually.
Peace,
ANDEE
I know. That same work train that went north came south, and dropped a vending machine at Jackson Av, and went on it's way. So as I head to work this morning, I should see a non-functioning MVM.
-Stef
I took over four weeks at Queens Plaza from when the MVM got there, the new METRO MAIDENS were installed too.
Oh and the electical conduit was installed 2 months before the MVM's even showed up.
Yea, that's the typical time frame.
Peace,
ANDEE
After I saw a group manhandling a MVM down the stairs at Columbus Circle in a mfg. newsletter I e-mailed one of the "suits" at the NYC mfg. office with the suggestion that they consider using the subways to deliver the MVMs.
I got a polite reply thanking me for my suggestion, but explaining that it wouldn't work for many stations AND the TA was not in favor of it. Maybe they are thinking of it again.
Mr t__:^)
I have seen them delivering MVMs several different ways:
I have seen a lift truck from the street, using wooden ramps and sliding them down the stairs from the street (yes- they had police blocking the stairs) and by train (such as 33,40, 46 on the 7)
Passing by on the F train today, I noticed that the new 63rd St connector signals were turned on. That includes the Queens Blvd line between Queens Plaza and 36 St.
Man are these signals bright! They blind you as you pass them. Especially the yellows.
One thing is for sure, leaving 36 St going downhill into the connector, there is going to be a timer. The first signal is yellow which is a dead giveaway.
Before you know it, the connector will be in full use.
And NO follo, I don't know when it will go into service.
>>>Man are these signals bright! <<<
Don't worry steel dust will eventually fix that.......Did you notice if the signals are LED's?
Peace,
ANDEE
No they are not LED's, just very powerful bulbs. The TA ordered a couple years ago that all new signal aspects operate at full brightness.
Probably those compact flourescents inside the lenses.
They are QUITE bright.
wayne
11/07/2000
[Probably those compact flourescents inside the lenses.
They are QUITE bright.]
I don't think they are compact flourescents. First of all they probably wouldn't fit in the signal housing and they don't always light up instantly. Compact flourescents seem to do better when they burn 24/7. Perhaps higher wattage incandescent bulbs and mirror reflectors brightened things up.
Bill "Newkirk"
What about those signals at the Jay Street / Borough Hall station in Brooklyn? What kind of bulbs do they use? They look different from most other signals, yet they don't look like LED's.
- Lyle Goldman
No, not flourescents. Either the TA has upped the wattage and
started using elevated bulbs (40 W) in the subway (which usually
takes an 18), or they've started using those prefocused reflectorized
high-efficiency bulbs.
I would think that it would be prudent to have a timer going down the grade and into the curve leading to 41st Avenue. A 20MPH speed restriction should be adequate. Is there a timer Manhattan bound approaching 23rd-Ely? If there is it doesn't show - trains seem to whip around that curve.
wayne
There is no timer in the 23-Ely area however there is a posted 20 mph speed limit going southbound. Most T/O's ignore the post but if there is a system safety TSS with a radar gun in the Ely station, he/she is dead meat.
I agree. Those system safety TSS's are out for blood!
I'm surprised there are no WD signals to protect the turnout
move to go down into the Y track.
I was on the E today and those new signals are bright! They must be using LED's in them!
No LED's in those signals, the signals are operating at 100% power.
Does anyone know what is going on on the Canarsie line lately? T/O say it's track work. The L line has been terminating at Myrtle Avenue for the last couple of weekends. Is this related to some kind of construction at B'way-ENY? Perhaps installation of New Signal Technology equipment?
I've also noticed an increasing population of New Signal Technology vehicles in the area and have noticed there is a New Signal Technology office on the 8th Avenue line at 34th Street.
Does anyone have any information regarding New Signal Technology, such as what system will NYCT be implementing? There are notes on the MTA website that say that pilot testing is already underway on the Canarsie line.
Thanks.
The reason for the L line track work is:
1) Installation of new signal technology for the implementation of ATO.
2)Extensive station renovation work being performed at Broadway Junction.
What's going on around Wilson Avenue? Fixing the trackbed, and perhaps waterproofing as well...the city bound Wilson Avenue station needs a little WORK!
wayne
Yes and No. The work being done to stations between Myrtle and B'way Junction are SUPPOSED to be station rehab work (at least that's what the NYCT is telling the public). I'm sure during this GO along that route the NYCT will take the opportunity to redo the signalling in anticipation of the eventual upgrade of the Canarise line for CBTC Ops.
And at Broadway Junction the L line's station is being rehabed in small sections so that service remains in place while the work is completed (last month, the northbound train's doors only opened in the last four cars; then two weeks ago, it was the first four cars only). Also, observant railfans will note that the third rail has been re-aligned on the right-hand side of the southbound tracks (P1). This was done last month. This is likely related to the coming CBTC, or could have been done for safety reasons since southbound trains are now opening doors on the LEFT side (island platform) as work has commenced on the outside platform.
I'll post any new developments as they occur.
BMTman
There's also supposed to be a new double crossover installed just north of Bway Junction on the L. Has that started yet? That could explain the L terminating at Myrtle ....
--Mark
Not yet.
That double crossover may be a sign of things to come, relating to the Atlantic Av reconstruction.
-Stef
On THAT grade - a crossover? How in the heck are they going to do THAT on such a ramp?
wayne
BMTman, with regards to trains opening up on the island platform, I heard that it will soon be that way permanently and that they will close off the side platform. Can you confirm this?
BMT Road Dogg. Thanks for your message.
I will try and get "the dirt" on that topic. However, I have a gut feeling that indeed the right-most platform will be eliminated. One of the things adding to that is the fact that the third rail was moved over -- in a permanent way -- to the right-hand side of the track. NYCT regulations state that the third rail MUST be on the far side of any platforms for customer safety reasons (Thus the island becomes the new southbound platform.)
BMTman
The G.O. bulletin produced by stations states that the G.O. will be temporary.
before you flame me, I work for Stations and the tracks are RTO. As we discovered for service on 11/10/2000, stations and RTO are not always working hand-in-hand.
Renvations are proceeding on Lorimer, Chauncey and Gates on the J. New platform edges are in place at Lorimer. They are being installed at Chauncey and yet to come at Gates. They are rebuilding the plats at all 3 Queens Bound. (Manhattan bound to be done when Queens bound reopens.) The other stations will be done next year.
I work on the J 1 day a week and use the line 2 days a week.
"As we discovered for service on 11/10/2000, stations and
RTO are not always working hand-in-hand. "
?????
on 11/10/00 Stations operated on a Sunday Schedule(and some booths that are closed on Sunday were closed on 11/10/00) while RTO ran a regular weekday schedule.
/*NYCT regulations state that the third rail MUST be on the far side of any platforms for customer safety reasons (Thus the island becomes the new southbound platform.) */
Oh, there's GOT to be at least a few places where the third rail is under the platform...
>>>Oh, there's GOT to be at least a few places where the third rail is under the platform... <<<
Such as any express stop on a three track line, E177/Parkchester, Tremont(4),Burnside(B,D), Fordham(B,D), 145th St IND (lower level) and 149th St/GC(4), to name just a few.
Peace,
ANDEE
Yes, and also Hoyt-Schermerhorn on the A/C. There are plenty of examples where for obvious reasons the third rail rule cannot be applied.
BMTman
Mytle Av - Broadway on the J/M/Z :)
>>>Oh, there's GOT to be at least a few places where the third rail is under the platform... <<<
Such as any express stop on a three track line, E177/Parkchester, Tremont(B,D),Burnside(4), Fordham(B,D), 145th St IND (lower level) and 149th St/GC(4), to name just a few.
Peace,
ANDEE
Name one where the third rail is under the platform on a non island platform.
I haven't noticed any, where?
Peace,
ANDEE
Name one where the third rail is under the platform on a non island platform.
Astor Place.
Come to think of it, I'm only positive about the uptown side, I can't recall which side the third rail is on on the downtown side.
Mark
Ok, I've got an interesting question. I've noticed on the LIRR, MN, etc, the third rail is sometimes switched to the outside of a curve (MN's harlem line is really heavy into this). Is there any reason for that?
Maybe due to the length of the M-1/4 types would cause some of the underbody equipment to touch the third rail??? (I'm only guessing as I doubt anything would hang low enough to make contact).
BMTman
South Ferry.
-Hank
This regulation does not exist in Pennsylvania because more often than not the 3rd is on the platform side. Having the 3rd on the platform side benifits track workers who are on the tracks much more often than customers.
But the Market-Frankfort line uses underrunning third rail, right? I remember riding the MFL for the first time last summer and being somewhat startled to not see a third rail opposite the platform at the 30th Street station. After craning my neck way over the platform edge, I finally found it tucked way underneath the platform edge. Looks like it would be almost impossible for somebody to land on it if they fell off the platform. Is it just me, or is the MFL's third rail unusually far away from the running rails? And what about the Broad Street Subway? I only rode that line once, and didn't have a chance to check out the third rail there.
NYC's subways use a cover on the third rail, so having the third rail on the platform side would seem to be somewhat less of a safety issue than in, say, Boston or Chicago where there is no cover.
In Boston, Park Street station on the Red Line has uncovered third rail under two of the platforms, as well as along the third track of the northern branch of the Orange Line.
In Chicago, the only spots that come to mind with (again, uncovered) third rail under a platform edge would be the center track at the O'Hare terminal of the Blue Line, and the now-defunct eastern platform at Wilson on the Red Line.
It would be bad enough for a customer to fall off the platform, but to fall off the platform and land on the third rail would be a disaster.
Any thoughts?
-- David
Chicago, IL
The MFL 3rd rail is a standard distance away, the differance is that despite a 5'2" guage the MFL cars are very narrow and don't overhang the track much. The result is that the platform is over the 3rd rail. Someone said they were built to the dimentions on the Paris Metro or the IRT. The BSS uses wide body IND type cars and the 3rd rail is b/t the rails and the platform edge. The BSS uses a typical wooden cover and I have seen track cleaners stand on the cover and bounce up and down on it atesting to its stregnth.
Sure! Any 3-track express station, Hoyt/Schermerhorn, South Ferry, Bowling Green, and Columbus Circle come to mind immediately.
-Hank
Sure! Any 3-track express station, Hoyt/Schermerhorn, South Ferry, Bowling Green, and Columbus Circle come to mind immediately.
South Ferry, Bowling Green are two track stations. I'm not counting the stub track at Bowling Green that isn't used.
Columbus Circle is not a three-track express stop either. Both the IND and IRT levels have four-track alignments. But there are three island platforms on the IND level. What was the point of the middle platform at the IND Columbus Circle station?
At one time Columbus Circle was a major stop (may still be, I don't really know) with connections to crosstown streetcar lines and other surface transport. This platform permitted both sides of the subway cars to be opened for faster entrance and exit. It hasn't been used in many years.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
This platform permitted both sides of the subway cars to be opened for faster entrance and exit. It hasn't been used in many years.
Well, they DID use it for the Triplex Railfan Trips this summer.
First and only time I've ever set foot on it.
wayne
The center platform at 59th St. was used during rush hours up until around 1974. I remember getting off a northbound A train once in December of 1969 onto the center platform and boarding a southbound D train a few minutes later. And this was an R-32 D train.
Where the ouside platforms ever used at Hoyt and Schermerhorn when the original " HH " ran to Court and did the center track employ a platform conductor? This question will need a reeealllly old subfan.
I bet it was a rare occassion to see all six tracks occupied! if ever. Can you imagine 52 R 1/9s in the same station . What sound effects!
avid
I wasn't around then, but I'm almost positive the outer platforms at Hoyt-Schermerhorn were used when the Court St. shuttle was still in business. The switches to the outer tracks are east of the station, away from the intricate flying junction. Can't comment on the platform conductors.
Had the Second System been built, it's a safe bet you'd have all six tracks at S. 4th St. occupied fairly regularly.
In the 'Good Old Days' when the R1-9's and R10's were running there would be a platform conductor on the center island that would open and close the doors so that people could get on/off quickly.
Did the same thing ever happen on the stub platform at the terminal at Chambers street? I realize it's only about 300ft or so long , but was it ever used?
avid
I meant ALL of them. The stations on their own are NOT 3-track, but the third rail IS under the platform. All three-track express stations, AND South Ferry, etc...
-Hank
BWAY NASSAU.
wayne
I work that line 1 day a week. They are doing a chipout at WIlson Ave. Some new concrete has already been poured- check the Canarsaie bound track as you leave the station.
Currently at Broadway Jct all trains are opening their doors on the island platform.
I have seen survey marks at Myrtle and Halsey(on the L) so maybe renovation is pending.
WHEN are they going to put up new wall tile at the northbound Wilson Avenue trackside wall? Before they hang a single panel, I MUST make sure that all 21 colors are present! :o)
(21 out of the 28 colors are in the band; the 7 others are in the tablets)
wayne
Sounds as if we may have to revisit that station on a future excursion.
TA mad at depiction os subways in Mercedes Benz ad,
WE CALL IT SCRATCHITTI NOW
Peace,
ANDEE
>>>"The graffiti you splashed all over the Benz in your ad is a gross misrepresentation of New York's venerable subways," Reuter wrote.<<<
I can't help but wonder that if they showed it with all the windows scratched up instead, would they be happy? LOL
Peace,
ANDEE
I have an appointment with the MTA coming up about the train operator job, does anyone know if I have a choice between choosing what line I want to work or do they assign you a specific line?
(I have an appointment with the MTA coming up about the train operator job, does anyone know if I have a choice between
choosing what line I want to work or do they assign you a specific line?)
My understanding is there is a "pick," with those with higher seniority getting to do the picking. As a new hire, expect the middle of the night on a line far from you home. However, after a few years you can do better.
First you have to find out what Division your work for???
You can't cross divisions without retraining I believe.
I asked the same about Conducter and here is what I was told:
The first day of school car one of teo things will happen- either you'll be told that all fo you will go to A Division or B Division or secondly there will be an in-class pick, based on your class seniority number(based on your list number) for choice fo A or B.
Just like Stations, you will start as Extra Extra and get the worst jobs and possibly be bumped by the regular. Even as extra I have been bumped--One night I was bumped twice and went to four booths before I was given a job. (I was bumped from booth 1 and told to go to booth 2 where I was bumped also by the regular[the hours at booth 2 were later]. I was told to go to booth 3 and call from booth 3. I went to booth 2 and told to call back in an hour and finally sent to booth 4. I dont remember the stations involved.)
You have to make two visits to the TA medical center before you are hired. The first visit is an all day physical(full physical) and drug testing. This will last from 8am to 4pm and you will not be paid for your time. The second time you will take another drug test and this is the time that you will officially be hired. Whether this two visit policy is still in effect remains to be seen.
After you are hired, you will report to TA school in Bensonhurst(PS 248). There you will find out if you can pick which division(A or B) that you would like to work. (A div.=IRT......B div.=IND/BMT) or if you will be mandated into one of these divisions without choice. Most of the time a choice is given.
After your T/O schooling is completed, you will have absolutely no choice as to which line that you will want to work, no choice as to what location or borough you would like to work from and no choice as to your starting time for at least 2 years minimum. This is called being "extra extra". At the completion of schooling, the crew office will ask you what shift that you would like to work. You can select AM, PM or Midnights.The shift times are:
AM:You could start at anytime between 4 am and 12 noon.
PM:You could start at anytime between 12 noon and 9 pm(very few PM jobs start after 7 pm).
Midnight:You could start at anytime between 9 pm and 4 am.
Once again, you will have no choice as to the time that you will start on any shift.
Your days off will most likely be Tuesday-Wednesday or Wednesday-Thursday. You want weekends off?HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA. ROFL.
During these two years you will have randomly assigned jobs. You could have in a five day week on the PM shift:
Sunday-D at Bedford Park, 2:18 pm reporting time
Monday-Garbage train at 207th St Yard, 8:40 pm report
Tuesday & Wednesday off
Thursday-E at Parsons Blvd, 4:23 pm report
Friday-L at Canarsie, 5:05 pm report
Saturday-R at 95th Street, 5:30 pm report
or on the AM shift:
Sunday-A at Far Rockaway, 4:07 am report
Monday-F at 179th Street, 11:57 am report
Tuesday & Wednesday off
Thursday-B at 38 St Yard(Bklyn), 4:16 am report
Friday-yard switching at Coney Island Yard, 8 am report
Saturday-D at Bedford Park, 10:17 am report
Of course you could get lucky and receive a few assignments in a row close to home but it's up to the crew assignment office and totally out of your hands.
You will receive two weeks vacation for the first two years and four weeks after that. In the beginning, you will only be able to pick your vacation time in the winter months. You will not see summer vacation for a long, long time. At least 8-10 years.
After two years, you will be able to pick your job assignments according to seniority. In the beginning, the jobs available will be crappy but over time they will eventually get better. When you pick(after two years), if there are job assignments available, you MUST pick one no matter how crappy it is. You cannot elect to stay "extra extra" if jobs are available.
To get Saturday-Sunday off on a regular assignment, you will need approximately 10 years as a T/O on the PM/MID shifts and 14 years on the AM shift. For part of the weekend off (Fri-Sat or Sun-Mon), subtract 2 years on each shift. As you get more "time" in, your jobs get better, your vacations get better and your days off get better. You could even have a switching job from 8 am to 4 pm with Saturday-Sunday off and summer vacations. Of course to have all this, you'll need at least 15 years in title. Everything gets better until you wish to recieve a promotion. When you get promoted to supervisor, your seniority starts again at zero and you have to start all over again.
The T/O is a great job but you will have to "pay your dues" first.
In the words of the Wizard, " Ignore that man behind the curtain."
Actually, most of what zman says is accurate. Where we differ might just be because we are in different divisions - he works the B, I'm in the A. A this point, I have been in title for 13.5 months (on the road alone for 10). I now have a picked RDO Relief job on the Midnights ( 4 nights at VC, 1 at White plains); I could have also picked 53 out of 70 on the Vacation Relief list, had a straight PM job, had a PM RDO Relief job, or picked PM MIsc Extra. The rest of my family's schedule does not allow me to work PMs if I have a choice, so I took the Mids instead of the VR crapshoot. During the summer pick, which just ended, I worked AMs, had Fri/ Sat RDOs, and was off for all three holidays (Memorial, July 4, LAbor). Since Dec of 97, when I came in as a CR, I have yet to work on Christmas or Memorial Day, worked 1 Thanksgiving on Midnights with F/S off, all while being Extra.
Opening my calendar at random, here are two weeks from the summer pick:
Sun 5/28 - 0900 @ 240Yard -Track Test - washed two trains at 207Yard, OKed two trains for service.
Mon 5/29 - Memorial Day - Off
Tue 5/30 - 0843 @ VC - 227 job - three trips to South Ferry
Wed 5/31 - 0800 @ 240Yard - GO Yard job - lay-up one train at 240 Yard, wash one train at 207Yard, lay it up there, lunch, bring train back to 240 Yard.
Thur 6/1 - 0945 @ Atlantic - x503 Switch - GO switch job created by supplement, lay-up a 4 train from Atl to 3 track south of Atl, lunch, put-in a 4 train from somewhere south of Bergen on 3 track to Atlantic Ave, WAA at Utica Ave.
Fri/ Sat - OFF
Sun 8/6 - 0847 @ Lenox - 213 job/3- Three trips to New Lots, clears 1736
Mon 8/7 - 0555 @ Westchester Yard - 228 job/6 - Put-in and three trips Parkchester- Bklyn Bridge.
Tue 8/8 - 0757 @ VC - 222 job - three trips to South Ferry.
Wed 8/9 - 0539 @ VC - 208 job - 1.5 hrs WAA, then three trips to South Ferry.
Thur 8/10 - 1045 @ Mott - x506 job/5 - GO job created by supplement - 1 trip Mott to the Green and back, 2 nd trip Mott, to the Green and up to Dyre. This second trip is the second trip in the "Day in the Life of a TO" posted elsewhere on this site.
Fri/ Sat - OFF
On of the guys at VC nows has a Station Switch job on the AMs, with Sun/ SAt off and only 12 years in title, which is three years better than zman's estimate. Again, I don't know how much of these differences are caused by being in different Divisions, and how much by bad guess work.
As you are aware, we are in different divisions. B division seniority is much worse than A division seniority.
Alex, you said in an earlier post that you were looking for a job in the B division so I looked for you(I do not know if you remember this). Anyway, when your time came up, there were roughly 40 jobs left. Compare this to what you could select in the A division. Many T/O's that I know that transferred over into the B from the A said that their seniority goes a lot farther in the A.
I remember. When I went to pick in the B div, I had a choice of 69 out of 70 on the VR list, Midnight OPTO Extra in Queens, or late PMs in Queens. Asa result, I decided to stay in the A, where even if I got really horrid jobs, at least I would know the people.
Alex L, you mean to tell me that you could have had #53 out of 70 on the VR list with only 13 months in title in the A division?
I have over 3 years in title and I am #61 out of 70 on the VR list in the B division.
WHOA! I knew that A division seniority was better but I didn't think that it was THAT MUCH better! Go figure!
Note to Vernon or any other T/O wannabe: Go to the IRT if you want to escape the "growing pains"!
And I noticed that you were able to take AVA's(personal days off) on your holidays in the A.
In the B, if you do not personally hand in your request EXACTLY 30 days in advance of the specific holiday, then there is a 99% chance that the AVA request will be denied. And if you want Thanksgiving, Christmas or New Year's Day off, then you better be AT THE CREW OFFICE at 12:01 am to hand in your request. And you had better have a preferable spot on line so that the other T/O's dont shut you out.
You might wanna hang out in the A for a little while.
What about religious observance?
I'll work Easter or Xmas but I need the Jewish New Year off, how would that work? I assume they charge it to Vacation but how can you insure that you get it off?
No, I didn't take an AVA for any holiday. Being at the top of the Extra List, the crew office gave me the day - or rather forced me to take it off.
They FORCED you to take a day off? Now that's a first for me!!!
Any shot of getting the A division crew office to swallow up the B office?
The seniority isn't much better. If you compare the file numbers that have weekends off or part of them, you'll notice the numbers are pretty much the same.
The comparison is between both divisions.
Well, actually, I cheated. You were probably one of the last classes to come out from a promotional exam. About two years ago, they started taking applications to move to TO provisionally ( anyone who went this way would have to pass the next TO test to remain in title). I didn't go provisional, because I didn't have the time. When they gave the test in (May, June, July?) of '99, I took it and was number 46 on the certified list. As a result, when they renumbered us for seniority, I moved up 180ish slots and was able to pick, whereas some people I know who went provisional early on, but didn't do well on the test had a picked job last pick and are now Extra Extra.
So you took the T/O test around June 99 and got called about 4 months later. Just goes to show you that anything can happen in the TA. I took the test in September 94 and it took them 3 years to ratify the test and call me. And I was on the very top of the list too.
Okay folks?
Thanks,
Dave
You coudln't have given us more 24 hours?
Excuse me for not having much faith in the idea that after today the conversation would magically steer itself back to relevancy without any input from me.
I have discovered that most conversations based on current events (the election) will die out once the events cease to be current (Nov 9). There will simply be other things to talk about. A Message Board should be regulated as little as possible because normal market forces will drive the threads to their equalibrium position where total benifit is maximized. By instuting a content floor you create a shortage of posts with a much higher level of uninterest. While the producers are transit related posts will enjoy more readership due to the lack of competition from off topic posts, the consumers will not recieve as much utility as they had when able to respond to all the off topic election related posts. Given time the transit post producers will either make their posts more enjoyable to all or add some sort of election theme to be more inline with what the post consumer wants.
Also I only saw 1 post where someone asked for the MB to get back on topic, indicating that the vast majority of SubTalkers had no problem with the raging political debate that was sort of related to transit.
*I have a Micro-economics exam tomorrow and I think I've studied a bit too much.
Many of us silently endured the superplethora of off-topic political posts and are thankful that Mr. Pirmann chose to close it out.
Next we need to eliminate these myraid vocabulary threads.
>>> While the producers are transit related posts will enjoy more readership due to the lack of competition from off topic posts, the consumers will not recieve as much utility as they had when able to respond to all the off topic election related posts <<<
If you wish to provide utility to consumers who want to respond to off topic posts, start your own message board. Do not hijack this one.
Tom
If you wish to provide utility to consumers who want to respond to off topic posts, start your own message board. Do not hijack this one.
One person cannot carry on a conversation (schizophrenics excepted). It's quite clear that a number of Subtalkers have spoken and they want OT messages.
I invite both sides to vote for whether they like, dislike or don't care about the off topic posts. My opinion is quite clear on the matter.
As far as off topic posts-I guess its ok ONLY if you change the the subject line. If is goes off topic I stop looking at it and will miss stuff if it goes back on topic !
Have a nice day !!
Right On! There's nothing more annoying than scrolling thru to read threads, only to find it off topic.
Admittedly, I go off too. Must learn to control that, or change the thread heading.
IMHO, there are some VERY interesting readings here. For instance the posts about Interurbans across the country and a NY to Philly line were great. I am sorry that I missed many of the Interurbans. About 4 years ago I finally got a copy of Middleton's Interurban Era, a book I've wanted since it was published, about 1960 or so. Couldn't afford one back then. (could barely do so now!) I cherish that book. Really makes you understand what the rails did for these towns they served and sewed together. I'm a big fan of light rail. It is hard not to make the comparisons; they'll never be the interurbans of yesterday. But, better than nothing at all.
Joe C.
You forget that this board is not a democracy. Dave Pirmann created it, Dave Pirmann maintains it, and it runs on Dave Pirmann's web server. If he decides that off-topic posts are not allowed, or that left-handed people with brown eyes and red hair are prohibited from posting, that's soley his call to make.
-- David
Chicago, IL
I actually am Left Handed with brown eyes and red hair....
You ugly bastard, you can't post here anymore!
-Hank :)
and I thought you liked me.... :)
I didn't say it was a Democracy. I said it was a compeditive market place and Dave is acting like government regulation. I know that most people on this board believe that regulation of markets is a bad thing so I tried an arguement that people and or Dave might sympathize with.
Sub Talk is Dave Pirmann's property. Dave's regulation of content is merely an exercise of property rights. Newspapers choose which reader's letters appear in print. Those who believe in free markets and property rights will back Dave up. and while I believe in a certain amount of regulation, there would be no pressing societal need to force Dave to carry my rantings, therefore Dave has the right to delete them, or kick me off his property altogether.
Or Dave can take it one step further and just shut it down altogether.
As the late Eve Arden once said on The Mothers-in-Law: "Because it's my house and my book and my cards."
"If he decides that off-topic posts are not allowed, or that left-handed people with brown eyes and red hair are prohibited from posting, that's soley his call to make."
And that would be discrimination and therefore illegal.
Wrong. This board is a private endeavor and can be run any way its owner sees fit. Dave can confirm this, but as far as I know he's not recieving a dime of taxpayer money to run this thing.
-- David
Chicago, IL
It doesn't matter. Discriminating against people based on hair color or other things for no valid reason violates several laws. Whether taxpayer money is in play or not.
Man you guys sure know how to blow things out of proportion. No one is being discriminated against. All I ask is a little self control. Which, I think is clearly evident, I'm never going to get. I think someone should start thinking about starting a new discussion board, my server's CPU has better things to be doing.
If the server is getting abused by off topic rants, I think David has the right (maybe the obligation) to delete the posts so that we can all get better service and he does not have to do upgrades as often. He is running this out of his pocket !!
I'll donate some money if reasonable off-"topic" threads can be disgussed.
As soon as we start disgussing things, we'll let you know. That being the case, please stay out of our discussions.
-Hank
GMAFB!
I love how a request from the discussion group's owner and moderator
to stay more on topic devolves into an off-topic pissing contest
about the topic of being off-topic!
Geez, in case you missed it: this isn't USENET. You don't
pay a dime for this service. The host and owner of the
service, Mr. Pirmann, has every legal and moral right to
establish policies concerning conduct and content. By
requesting and accepting a posting handle and password, you
agreed to these terms and conditions. If you don't like it,
leave.
Geez, in case you missed it: this isn't USENET. You don't
pay a dime for this service.
I don't remember even mailing in a USENET bill.
He may have the legal right, but that doesn't give him the moral right.
Pigs, IT'S HIS PROPERTY
I believe you just don't want to accept the fact that you aren't free to discuss whatever you want to. Based on how you will usually argue a subject, you would never go into a moral agruement about anything.
I'm not going to get into an argument about what USENET is and
how it has been financed over the years (it predates the internet,
or at least V4, by a few years). The point is this is not a
USENET forum which is owned, in a sense, by its contributors.
One more time: David Pirmann decided a few years ago that he
would create an online discussion board for transit-related
topics. It was, in effect, a spinoff of the nyc.transit newsgroup
and one of the reasons for taking it private was to avoid
spam and off-topic drivel. Pirmann funds it, Pirmann invests his
time in developing and maintaining it. I don't understand how
you can say he doesn't have the moral right to request that
its users (who pay nothing for the service, not even the privilege
of being bombarded by advertisements) obey a few simple guidelines.
An analogy: a man invites you into his home for tea and once inside
you claim he has no right to ask that you not piss on his carpet.
It takes a lot to get you excited, but I think you comments were overdue & on-target.
BTW, I don't like guests pissing in my pool either.
Mr t__:^)
You have a pool?? >G< Didn't know that.
I agree with you and Jeff BTW
The thing is that things like politics and SUV's and gasoline prices and Suburban Sprall and highways are VERY related to transit. Even if a post about politics or SUV's in itsself doen not mention transit specifically it is still a realted transit topic. "Off-Topic" posts FREQUENTLY bring up direct transit topics. I have never seen SubTalk go completely off topic and start yacking about movie stars or casino gambling. I don't know why people are always mad about long "off topic" threads, or "off topic" floods. The more messages you have on an MB the better the chance is you'll find something of interest to yourself or something you can comment about. I'm sick of waiting hour after hour for someone to post something on Subtalk. Our exaulted leader has done a great job with this site and I don't see why he has to waste his time policing the MB. We a flamer latches on I'm sure someone will tell him. I don't want to go to another MB, I want to discuss things with the people here. If I post an off topic post (which I rarely do) its because I either want a railfan or a New York perspective.
>>>I'm sick of waiting hour after hour for someone to post something on Subtalk.<<<
Then, turn OFF the computer, Go OUT and get a life.
Peace,
ANDEE
Good point, Andee.
Some people post here as if it is their sole purpose in life.
BMTman
Anything can be related to transit if you stretch it
hard enough, whether it be ladies' fashion (high heels
and stairway accidents) or penis enlargement (possible
effects of third rail electro-urinary contact).
The off-topic posts, in and of themselves, are not the problem.
It is the inability to filter out threads that are not
of interest to a particular reader that causes the real
aggravation. Part of that is technical: WebBBS does not
do thread splits and merges {and if I suddenly have a lot
of free time and David P. is willing I could offer some
Perl hacking suggestions to address that}, but most of it
is lack of self-control and online manners.
I'll have to echo Andee's sentiments that if you are sitting
by the screen waiting for a post, hour after hour, you obviously
have too much free time. I'll make the somewhat self-serving
observation that there are two operating railway museums
equidistant from Meriden: The Connecticut Trolley Museum which
is about 20 minutes north of Hartford, and The Shore Line Trolley
Museum which is 5 minutes east of New Haven. I'd say about a dozen
SubTalk patrons volunteer at Shore Line. If you can learn to operate
a trolley car, screwdriver, spike maul or paintbrush you'd be
welcome at either place.
I'll be glad to help just as soon as I knit myself a car and even then I'd have to pay those awful CT gas prices. I've explored every RR site w/in biking distance and I have a good amount of activities. However on Sat/Sun afternoons or specific weeknights I have long periods in my room and a larger number of posts would be appriciated.
> I have long periods in my room
Are you grounded? :-)
-Dave
I'll actually try to swing this one back on topic!
You mention "awful CT gas prices". Actually, as a result of
the recent gas price "crisis", CT temporarily relaxed some of
the gas taxes. The result is that Hess on Frontage Road
in East Haven, as of last week, was selling regular unleaded
for $1.5799. That's about 10 cents cheaper than the best prices
I've seen in NYC. Usually that station, which is the cheapest
gas for miles and is always mobbed, is a couple of cents higher
than NYC cheap gas.
Even so, how much does high gas price actually contribute to
trip cost? My round trip from NYC to Shore Line Trolley
Museum is 160 miles. At a conservative 20 mpg, that 10 cent
difference means less than a dollar in my round trip cost.
In fact, even at the outrageous price of $1.80 per gallon,
that whole round trip costs me under $15.00. Include the
$7 round trip tolls and it's $22.
Guess how much a round trip ticket on Metro North costs?
$23.00 So even in times of high gas prices, public transit,
at least in CT, is still a bit more expensive than driving.
Of course, there are the "soft costs" such as parking,
wear-and-tear, and about 3 hours of my time.
MetroNorth and the other commuter RR have a fairly poor farebox
ratio, i.e. they are more heavily subsidized than NYC subways.
What's the break-even point for a subway ride? With the flat
fare of $1.50, which is $1.36 after metrocard discount, the subway
becomes cheaper than driving at a distance of about 16 miles.
My trip happens to be 13 miles (by car).
It takes about 45 minutes to make that trip by subway,
or 17 route miles per hour. Only during the most horrendous
of traffic conditions is it actually slower for me to drive in.
Of course, if you're driving an SUV or a 1969 Chrysler New Yorker,
fuel economy is much lower and the break-even point is different.
My round trip from NYC to Shore Line Trolley Museum is 160 miles. At a conservative 20 mpg, that 10 cent difference means less than a dollar in my round trip cost. In fact, even at the outrageous price of $1.80 per gallon, that whole round trip costs me under $15.00. Include the $7 round trip tolls and it's $22.
Guess how much a round trip ticket on Metro North costs? $23.00 So even in times of high gas prices, public transit, at least in CT, is still a bit more expensive than driving. Of course, there are the "soft costs" such as parking, wear-and-tear, and about 3 hours of my time.
There's another cost of driving that's becoming more and more signficant these days. It wasn't long after we leased our Rodeo last July that we began paying careful attention to the odometer. Our lease with Isuzu Motors Acceptance is fairly typical, allowing 39,000 miles in its 39-month term (in other words, 1,000 miles per month) with an excess mileage penalty at term end of 15 cents per mile. Leasing is more and more common today, given the high price of vehicles, which means that mileage limits are becoming a big deal for many drivers, and the penalty costs have to be added into drive-or-ride decisions.
The vast majority of the costs of auto use are fixed -- purchase or lease, financing, insurance. Once you have the car, it is almost always cheaper and easier to drive it -- unless you are going to Manhattan, and don't get parking on the cuff.
Transit is thus generally limited to those who cannot drive, because they are too young, too old, or too poor. Good transit can compete only if it allows people to have no cars (good for those without kids) or one instead of two. Not too many places like that.
"Transit is thus generally limited to those who cannot drive, because they are too young, too old, or too poor."
Though it's clearly not your intent, that sounds exactly like what an ANTI-transit activist (Wendell Cox, etc.) or suburban know-nothing (the kind who says with a prideful grin that he hasn't been downtown in 20 years) would say. "I don't want to ride a train, 'cuz only the poor ride trains."
How do you explain commuter rail with heavy ridership in suburbs where every household has a car and most have multiple cars? And they aren't just busy on the weekend. Every time I ride Metra on the weekend, the trains are packed, with nearly every seat occupied. Even with discounted weekend and family fares, it's cheaper for a group of four or more in a single vehicle to drive into downtown Chicago on the weekend if you look around a little bit for a parking space or lot. Yet they ride the trains downtown, because it's faster (yes, even on the weekends) and less stressful.
How do you explain the light rail systems all over the country? Yes, they don't have ridership in the hundreds of thousands like the Lexington subway or the Chicago, Washington, and Boston transit systems. But they are busy, with riderships in the mid to high five figures, and I doubt that's mainly attributable to people who can't drive because they're "too young, too old, or too poor". More importantly, these light rail systems are expanding. Sprawling Sunbelt cities that built light rail -- Denver, Salt Lake City, Dallas, etc. -- have popularly-supported plans to extend their systems. Why would voters back tax increases to fund transit networks if they aren't using them?
It's true that commuter and most light rail systems have a high reliance on park-and-ride lots at the outer stations. Cars are the predominant "feeders" to these networks, where buses and walking are the main feeders in older cities like Chicago and Boston. But that fact still flies directly in the face of your assertion that transit is used mostly by the carless. The users of park and ride are making a decision, for whatever reason (expense, hassle, environmentalism), to ride rail transit though a car is clearly at their disposal.
"Good transit can compete only if it allows people to have no cars (good for those without kids) or one instead of two. Not too many places like that."
Setting the bar rather high, aren't we? Transit doesn't have to compete on an all-or-nothing basis of replacing replacing a/the family car. All it has to do is be a viable substitute for an increasing number of individual trips. Look at the cities with light rail, where their system operates with crush loads on the days of sporting events, festivals, etc.. And as I previously stated, lots of people who drive everywhere when they travel in the suburbs take the train when they head into the city center, whether for work or pleasure. Any place where park and ride lots fill up is a refutation of the argument that transit is a success only where it completely displaces an automobile.
("Good transit can compete only if it allows people to have no cars (good for those without kids) or one instead of two. Not too many places like that."
Setting the bar rather high, aren't we? Transit doesn't have to compete on an all-or-nothing basis of replacing replacing a/the family car...Any place where park and ride lots fill up is a refutation of the argument that transit is a success only where it completely displaces an automobile.)
In that case, transit isn't competing with the automobile. Transit is competing with the cost and convenience of parking alone, a much more difficult competition. In almost every case, if you are already paying for a car, it will be cheaper and faster to use it -- unless parking is unavailable.
But Larry, there are many places where it can be faster. This is one thing about the new systems - they are built for speed. So during rush hour or going to a football game, they end up being faster. The cost of parking makes transit cost competitive, too.
In that case, transit isn't competing with the automobile. Transit is competing with the cost and
convenience of parking alone, a much more difficult competition. In almost every case, if you are
already paying for a car, it will be cheaper and faster to use it -- unless parking is unavailable.
Larry, why does transit have to compete with the private
automobile. Isn't a more modern view that a good, well-designed
and well-managed public transit system complements, rather than
competes with, cars and highways? That's why I get ticked when
I read editorials in, e.g., the AAA magazine complaining about
how the MTA is "ripping off" drivers (who, as we know, have a
constitutional right to drive whatever, wherever, whenever)
by using toll money to subsidize public transit. Every train
that enters Manhattan during the rush hour spares a thousand
or so cars.
We often hear about the farebox ratio, i.e. the percentage of
the actual cost of a transit customer's trip that is paid for
directly by that customer. Here's a question to consider:
what is the equivalent ratio for the private car?
I had a similar argument with a South Jersey friend who worked in Philly (not in a transit-appropriate location) when PATCO first started and complained that his Ben Franklin Bridge toll was subsidizing PATCO. At the end of PATCO's first week of service into Philly I asked him how traffic was on the bridge and he replied that it had suddenly become much lighter. I pointed out that PATCO was responsible. He replied that he felt that the subsidy was worthwhile and he didn't complain about it again.
Here's a question to consider: what is the equivalent ratio for the private car?
The then new MBTA was able to show that Boston subsidized each automobile commuter to the tune of $25,000 per annum back around 1966. The figures were unassailable and convinced the political establishment that public transit was worth its subsidies.
(We often hear about the farebox ratio, i.e. the percentage of
the actual cost of a transit customer's trip that is paid for
directly by that customer. Here's a question to consider: what is the equivalent ratio for the private car?)
Think of what the driver pays for: the purchase, maintenance, insurance, and operation of the car. The government pays for the ROW in taxes. I'd measure transit the same way. I'd also count the maintenance of the stations (but not revenue collection) as public amenities to be funded by tax dollars.
I'd say the subway measures up on an "auto-equivalent basis."
This simple accounting leaves out a couple of things. The car driver creates more pollution and ROW congestion than the subway rider, but the car driver also pays fuel and motor vehicle taxes and tolls to pay for the ROW. I'd say the two would balance each other out in a fair system. The use of toll and car tax money to pay for transit ROW would constitute "rent" to the transit rider for giving up scarce road and airspace.
How about the indirect costs associated with autos? Besides
pollution, there's the cost of the extra burden placed on
law enforcement and emergency response agencies.
Illinois may repeal the state gas tax because of the "high" cost of gasoline. I guess they have never been to Europe where filling the tank of a midsize car can cost $100.
"Illinois may repeal the state gas tax because of the 'high' cost of gasoline."
I saw that tidbit buried in the middle of a Sun-Times paragraph about legislation before the Assembly. When they "temporarily" repealed the five-percent sales tax on gasoline due to the "gas crisis" of the summer (like you said, $2/gal is no crisis compared to Europe), I said that it was a bad idea because it wouldn't be temporary -- nobody in the Assembly would want to go on record as specifically voting to restore it. The response people gave me at the time was to not worry, because the suspension law stated that the tax would be automatically restored in December (I don't recall the date). Now it seems that I was right to be concerned.
That's the sales tax on gas, not the gas tax itself. The tax in question is 5%, IINM, and it's been suspended since June 1. The current temporary suspension ends at the end of the year; we'll see if it becomes permanent.
FWIW, gas in Champaign-Urbana currently runs about $1.559 for 87 octane. The price has been remarkably steady lately; over the past month it's gradually dropped about a nickel.
You shouldn't lease a car, its a waste of money. Buy a car and use it for 20 years. We need to get away from out throw away society. What we saved on insurance alone was enough to cover the frequent repairs to our 1972 Mustang and/or 1974 LTD. Not having to worry about such trivial things like emmissions were another perk.
>>>...1969 Chrysler New Yorker<<<
Don't you mean 1969 Chrysler 300??
Peace,
ANDEE
We know what he ment, it's that big green boat that sometimes is seen in the Shoreline parking lot ... with a new heater that has one position now ... ON.
My slightly smaller chrysler (LeBaron Convertable) has 104 K on it now, but still gets decent gas mileage.
Back to the topic ... when I drive my AeroStar or Doug drives his Chrysler the bell gings a lot more times so the 10 or 15 cent change in the price becomes more visable.
Mr t__:^)
HEY, JEFF!!! CHEAP SHOT!!
Maybe you'd like to exchange the 300's 440 hp engine for a set of traction motors? I hear you're quite go at electrical work...;-)
BMTman
Now I'll give you some news to rejoice about.
I went up to San Francisco this past weekend. Around where I live (30 miles southeast of Los Angeles), gas is running around $1.75 a gallon.
Once you get over the mountains and into the central valley portion of California, you're seeing (SIT DOWN!!) $2.29 a gallon!!! Right in San Francisco, it goes from $1.95 a gallon up to $2.09 a gallon, depending on what part of the city.
Headed east, went to Reno, and gassed up in Carson City again. It was $1.69 a gallon there at some off-brand convenience mart full of hillbillies buying beer (none of them looked like they bathed anywhere recently...) And further down US395, in Bishop, topped off my tank at $1.95 a gallon.
Ah, but how much was the beer?
Heheheh, never even noticed. Never touched a drop in my 50 years on earth, so it isn't going to start interesting me now....
I know that Hess -formerly Merit- in East Haven very well. When I drive to the Native American casinos, I always stop off there (the Chinese buffet in the shopping center across the Pike helps, too), as it's by far the cheapest gas I've ever seen in the state- at least without meandering off onto heavily-trafficked Route 1, which acts a service road for 95 through East Haven. Last time I was there in June, at the height of prices, they were charging $1.74, still higher than most stations on the Island.
The stations in the more rural New London/Groton/Ledyard area are far more expensive. Of course, in 'wealthy' Fairfield county, prices are off the charts as well. Someone said this is because Connecticut is "a rich state". (This, of course, can be refuted if you ever see parts of Hartford, New Haven, Bridgeport or Waterbury!) Under that line of thinking, the low prices in New Jersey must mean that state is dirt poor- large, estate-ridden parts of Bergen, Mercer, Middlesex, Monmouth and Somerset Counties not withstanding.
Anyway, judging from the horrendous southbound traffic on 95 I see all the way past Hew Haven implies that a lot of people can't- or won't- use Metro North to get to work. It's very easy to try to browbeat people into using it, but unless there's a direct, convenient train or bus between home and work, there's little choice but to drive. I have a friend who lives in Monmouth and works on Staten Island. Anyone know a bus or train between the two?
I'm probably just a guilty because I drive to the gambling meccas in A.C. and NE Conn, whereas there are buses that give bonuses and of course save you money on gas and tolls. However, my desire to arrive at my destination at an early hour, which enables me to get home in time for dinner, combined with the often unpleasant conditions on these buses (late, drunks, overripe bathrooms, people who lost a bundle and take it out on everyone else, terrible movies played loudly) lands me in the gas guzzler every time.
"If you wish to provide utility to consumers who want to respond to off topic posts, start your own message board. Do not hijack this one."
Hey, old tom, let he who is without sin cast the first stone. You surely have posted your share of off topic posts.
BTW, when you removed all those election related posts did you realize that there wasn't anything left for people to read. Even the tumbleweed's gone.
Looks like the "which candidate is better for transit?" posts are still there, which makes sense for this board, IMO. I didn't see the other "election posts" cause I was away this weekend...
I would guess it is hard to keep rigidly on topic when it comes to politics, because, really, politics and public transit are so intertwined, how can you completely separate the two? I do agree that blatant plugs for this or that candidate, party, or ideology, where they don't pertain to transit at all, might not have a place here. However, myself often being one to steer the board away from the "why is this nut screwed onto this bolt on the R-32?"-type topics, who am I to criticize?
If it is not on a Transit Topic it should GO PERIOD, I don't come here to read about prochoice. This topic should go IMHO >G<.
For my part, I try to relate all my posts to transit, and I think I'm fairly conscientous in this regard. If politics enters in, it's transit related somehow, if sometimes not as directly as a purist might have it. But to me, transit isn't just about the nuts and bolts, but also about the attitudes towards it, how it's funded, the history thereof (especially), etc. With these topics, you can't escape politics. I didn't see the whole abortion debate thread you reference, so obviously I'm not the culprit in that one. I can't see how that issue might have related to transit, though.
I think the point is, what does DAVE think the scope of this site should include. For those items that fall outside, folks who want to talk about them should make an effort to do it somewhere else.
I also feel that Dave is very tollerant with what he doesn't think belongs here, but once in a while when the whole discussion seems to be moving away or there is a particularly offensive topic started, he needs & has every right to say HEY GUYS, CAN WE PLEASE GET BACK ON TOPIC.
I for one can no longer count all the stuff that I've learned here & am very appreciative to him for providing this forum to meet new friends with the same fetish (my wife has another word of it).
Thanks Dave !
Mr t__:^)
The Question we need to ask ourselves is, Is SubTalk a place where people can talk about transit or a place where people who like transit, can talk.
I say the latter.
I say we should define transit related as anything that is commonly talked about by groups of transit buffs.
According to Dave, SubTalk is a place where people can talk about transit. Read the information at the top of the index page!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
The same point I was trying to make.
Mr t__:^)
What harm has come from the following topics:
Nedicks
Nathans
Fast Food
Coney Island Attractions OTHER than Stillwell Ave and the Yards
Why I call them 'Hot Dogs'
Where's heypaul?
Not much, huh?
Now, what harm has come from these topics:
R142
Redbird
Railfan Window
Salaam Allah likes the Railfain Window
Transverse Cabs Suck
Say NO to OPTO
Tunnel to Staten Island
What goes on with a thread depends solely on the content we, the users, provide it. As I said before, while this site is meant to be a transit discussion group that doesn't have to deal with the likes of Marc Kortlander (Although I'd love to introduce Salaam to him (That's a compliment to Salaam)), we've basically become a Coffee Klatch of transit buffs with PCs some of us don't understand. We start with transit as a common intrest. We explore from there. Many of us discover other intrests. Some persons here may actually be dating. The point is, while yes, transit is our main focus, we share numerous opinions on various other subjects, and there's no reason it can't be discussed within reason.
-Hank
For the record, I would like to echo your sentiments concerning appreciation of this board as a place where railfans can get together and share information and experiences. I would like to thank Dave Pirmann also, and I do agree that it's his call when it comes to the use (or abuse) of his resources. I'd hate to lose this forum, and my posts in this thread are meant to convey that attitude, and to express my desire to NOT be considered one of the abusers. Long live SubTalk. :o)
I second Dave's request, and prase his patience with some of the nonsense that get put up on this site. However, I don't mind a little joking around if it relates to mass transit.
For me this is a place to learn & talk to my friends both near and far.
Mr t__:^)
I apologize if this has already been posted - there's an amusing article in Sunday's Star-Ledger on railfanning in New Jersey, including some quotes from railfans (maybe you?) and bewildered commuters, and a "where to trainspot in New Jersey" guide. In the same section, an article on Pat DiNizio, lead singer of the Smithereens and Reform Party candidate for Senate, who is campaigning by trolley bus.
Is there an on-line link to this article?
--Mark
I couldn't find it online, unfortunately. If I have time later, I'll try to transcribe it; it's not very long. If you want to look for yourself, try The Star-Ledger online; maybe I missed it.
Speaking as a person who has been to 'Go-Go' places, I have to say that each has it's merits, and it really depends on your mood and what your significant other will tolerate. In my case, I have a better chance of going to a strip bar than taking her on a train ride in 95 degree heat. :)
-Hank
What if you could combine the 2 activities. During an open house Go-Go girls could dance and pose and be provocitive in, on and around the locomotives. If you bring enough money they might even take you for a "cab ride".
In today's Daily News there is an article
that projects some hope for the beginnings of what
could be a full regional system.
Tri-State Fare Card Eyed
Why create another debit card system, let Visa or MC handle it.
Arti
Because not everyone has credit cards. More importantly multi-agency fare cards allow for tegional discounts. The easiest to implement for instance would be MetroCard usage on PATH. The hurdles are entirely political, but the advantages to the riders are clear.
BTW for those of us of a certain age. A notice posted at Penn in 1966 or 7, LIRR and PRR Have filed to discontinue sale of certain joint tariff tickets. Back then you could buy a single fare ticket from the Philly Comuter district through the Jersey district out to the LI.
Current example of innovative ticketing: VRE and MARC have agreed to accept each others tickets for 'reverse' trips. Start on VRE change to outbound MARC in AM no extra, Brilliant! (technology none--just filling empty seats on backhauls)
The key here is developing the system into a "smart card" that could also be used as cash. Lots of banks want to implement such a technology, but if you have value on a "Smart Card" and the bank goes bust, it isn't a "deposit" and your money is lost. The Regional Transit farecard would be "backed" by transit rides the way the dollar used to be "backed" by gold.
But here is the risk. If the size of amount of money floating on the cards is large relative to transit budgets (because the smart card is used for general purchases), the transit authorities could book that revenue in year one to keep the fare down, give out big raises, bonuses, perks, etc. Then, as values are drawn down, they'd have to make good on transit rides without any more revenues.
Can polticians be trusted to ignore a temptation like that.
[Lots of banks want to implement such a technology, but if you have value on a "Smart Card" and the bank goes bust, it isn't a "deposit" and your money is lost. ]
Thats what FDIC is for up to $100k. Also those cards are developed not by banks but rather some interagency institution. One of the products what comes to mind is Visa Electron.
My point was especially if this farecard were to become a form of regional currency let financial institutions do it. MTA's goal is to move people around, not provide financial services.
Arti
The key here is developing the system into a "smart card" that could also be used as cash. Lots of banks want to implement such a technology, but if you have value on a "Smart Card" and the bank goes bust, it isn't a "deposit" and your money is lost. The Regional Transit farecard would be "backed" by transit rides the way the dollar used to be "backed" by gold.
But here is the risk. If the size of amount of money floating on the cards is large relative to transit budgets (because the smart card is used for general purchases), the transit authorities could book that revenue in year one to keep the fare down, give out big raises, bonuses, perks, etc. Then, as values are drawn down, they'd have to make good on transit rides without any more revenues.
Can polticians be trusted to ignore a temptation like that?
They should include SEPTA and WMATA as well. It would save the business travels some space in their wallets. If they are smart, they will use the WMATA SmarTrip since that works well and work their way north.
Why are New Yorkers considering a joint venture w/ PATH and NJT? I thought New Yorkers believed they will fall into the void if they cross the Hudson.
An Ad for the Cartoon Network for a Show called I think "Sheep in
Public" or something like that, shows a Cartoon Sheep standing on a crowded platform waiting for a train and you see the bottom half of the front a "train" coming in it looks like a Trolly or light rail or some kind does anyone know where it is?
Judging from the roadbed, it looks like a rubber-tire & steel rail system. Looking at the car body, I'd say Paris. It does not look American or Canadian.
Joe C
You're correct! It's a rubber-tire/rail metro system from Paris France. I've seen it and the carbody looks like a European toy train.
Dan
It is a Metro train from Paris, France.
And in the Chock-full-o-nuts heaven and earth ad which shows coffee in the heaven part and subway commuters in the earth part, that is a Piccadilly Line train on the London Underground.
I just found this in the October 30 issue of Chemical and Engineering News (p 88):
The American Institute of Chemical Engineers used the world series to point out improvements to baseball brought about by chemical engineering. Their list, verbatim:
cleated shoes
breathable uniforms
batting helmets
catcher's equipment
bat tar
bats
plastic stadium seats
natural grass infields (?? [my question marks] )
beer and soda and their containers
Metrocards (for the subway)
I had a chance to ride on the 7 twice two weeks ago, once on Tuesday night to Game 3 of the Subway Series at Shea, then again on Thursday with Wayne and Peggy on our excursion. Much to my surprise, I noticed that a number of R-36s had had their original doors replaced with mainline door leaves. The windows on the original door leaves line up with the picture windows on the car sides in the same manner as the windows on the R-32s and R-38s, as well as the original doors on the R-40s and R-42s. The windows on the replacement leaves are set higher up as they are on other Redbirds and do not line up with the picture windows. It seemed that most of the 9400-series cars still had their original leaves, as did the single R-33s. Luckily, they didn't seem to intermix cars of different door leaves in the same train; either all cars in any given train had original leaves or they all had replacement leaves. Any given car had either all original or all replacement door leaves. The replacement leaves had a darker red shade than the rest of the car they were installed in.
Does anyone have any idea as to what brought this on?
Speaking of new doors, East New York is starting to put in some new upper door tracks on the storm and side doors. There's some nice sliding on those. Quiet too.
running on...
The reason is The R36 cars GE ONLY Have the "new door leaves" are becauae those cars were rebuilt in Coney island and 207th street all GE R36 cars have them except for 9558 9559 9652 9653 9730 9731 9747 9766 9767. No I didnt forget 9746 this is the only pair that has 1 car with new door leaves and 1 car with old door leaves very strange.
Maybe that's their way of removing the doors from the mainline Redbirds before they go on their final tri...uh, voyage, to the bottom of the sea????
Yes, a number of the R-33 have these windows. I can't definitely tell you why this is so, but I do rememebr seeing some of the cars using the mainline doors with higher, smaller windows for at least about 3 or 4 years now. I used to ride the 7 frequently and noticed this a few years ago in college.
In the trains I've seen also, all of the cars used either large/low or small/high-windowed doors and all trains used only cars with one kind of window. The only exception to this are the single R-33s, which were sometimes still equipped with the larger and higher door-windows. I do not remember noticing a different shad of paint on these door.
Will they be able to install the "door sensors" on the R-36 WFs that are now standard on al the stainless steel subway cars? The issue of these door sensors was in the news a few months ago when there was a series of dragging incidents.
Most of the redirds are going to be scrapped when the R-142s are in service in large numbers. Since the Flushing redirds, according to a recent post here, have the second-best reliability rating of all NYCT car types, they should probably not be scrapped (except for the non-airconditioned R-33 singles). So if the mainline redirds are scrapped but the Flushing R-36s are kept in service (not necessarily on the 7), they will need to have the door sensors instaled to allay safety concerns.
Could the observed replacement of doors be connected with this?
Wouldn't it be a great idea if they setup a train station for the Roosevelt Field mall routing it through the old ROW that exists now going across Stewart Ave, past the yard there, then past the old Clinton Ave station and the meeting up with the Hempstead line. Or they could built the station at the rail yard and then build an aerial walkway to the far end of the mall. This way the people who work around the area could use the LIRR to shop and get to work. What a thought......
Wouldn't it be a great idea if they setup a train station for the Roosevelt Field mall routing it through the old ROW that exists
now going across Stewart Ave, past the yard there, then past the old Clinton Ave station and the meeting up with the Hempstead line. Or they could built the station at the rail yard and then build an aerial walkway to the far end of the mall. This way the people who work around the area could use the LIRR to shop and get to work. What a thought......
I suppose it's possible, but not practical. Either the old Garden City Secondary would have to be electrified - definitely not a cheap proposition - or a diesel shuttle from the Hempstead line would be needed. Even the shuttle idea would require some significant track upgrades. Any walkway at the R.F. end would have to be lengthy, probably 1,000 feet or more if you extend it from the existing yard. You're probably talking several million dollars just in construction expenses for a demand that may not exist.
In my little fantasy world, I'd always thought that perhaps a station on the Main Line between Mineola and Carle Place with a connection to the mall as well as the office buildings and shopping centers on Old Country Road via an elevated moving sidewalk (or even a people mover like you have at some airports like Orlando) would be useful.
CG
My fantasy would have your connection plus a connection to the Garden City Secondary line, with a big loop inbetween, connecting Roosevelt Field, The Source Mall, Merchants Concourse, Hofstra, Nassau Community College, Nassau Coliseum and the Mitchel Field area (Cradle of Aviation Museum). While we're at it, might as well restore the connection with the West Hempstead branch (which passes by the County Seat buildings) to Mineola as well as the Central Line from Garden City to Bethpage. This way, just about anyone in Nassau County could get to the "Nassau Hub" area by rail. Oops, I've got to get going; there's a crowd of of NIMBY's trying to break down my door right now! :-)
Right, NIMBY alert ... those NIMBYs in Garden City wouldn't tollerate it, but it's a good idea just the same.
I'm wondering out laud if the reason the steam engine group moved away was because of NIMBYs ... I could see them using the old ROW to run their engine back & forth.
Mr t__:^)
How do the emergency brakes on a MBTA subway train work?
It seems that there is a ring on a bar under it. Pull ring and pull bar down? Note there is a sign that saids "Emergency brake and end door unlock".
Q -How do the emergency brakes on a MBTA subway train work?
It seems that there is a ring on a bar under it. Pull ring and pull bar down? Note there is a sign that saids "Emergency brake and end door unlock".
A - The ring is so you can get the bar in position (out of the wall) to use it. When you pull the bar down, it: a. opens an air valve and "dumps the train." b. mechanically pulls a latch to unlock the end door. The outside handle on the adjacent car doesn't lock, only the inside.
Dumping the air, by the way, will definately bring an angry motorman and probably a T cop to your beck and call, so use this power wisely!
Dick
Q -How do the emergency brakes on a MBTA subway train work?
It seems that there is a ring on a bar under it. Pull ring and pull bar down? Note there is a sign that saids "Emergency brake and end door unlock".
A - The ring is so you can get the bar in position (out of the wall) to use it. When you pull the bar down, it: a. opens an air valve and "dumps the train." b. mechanically pulls a latch to unlock the end door. The outside handle on the adjacent car doesn't lock, only the inside.
Dumping the air, by the way, will definately bring an angry motorman and probably a T cop to your beck and call, so use this power wisely!
Dick
what trains must a person take to get to transit Tech High School?
in my situation I am at 149 St-Grand Concourse. What train do i take from there?
Take the 2,4, or 5 to Fulton St. Transfer is available to the J to Norwood Av, follow by a walk down a couple blocks. Or you can change to the A to Euclid and walk up about three blocks to the school.
Train#1902Mike
I heard this am that Pelham's 142 went out of service due to brake problems. Any news?
The Yankees train was running on the 2 Monday just before midnight and again this am.
I don't know about that but I did see a 2nd set of R142As on the Pelham today (cars 7261 - 7270)
I give up on the R 142's......
R-142's are o.k. R-142A is giving the problem. I wonder Why the R-142A is giving out like that? its serious.
Hey I was on that R142A train today (cars 7261-7270) all the way to 138- 3 Ave their the train was held up for a while and then the conductor announced that the train was out of service due to mechanical problems so passengers were discharge from the train and had to wait for the local across the platform. I was gonna see how many M.P.H. could it due that R142A on the express track.
Shortly after midnight last night I saw a 142 on the downtown 6 at 33rd St, making simulated stops (doors opening on other side, etc.).
I saw one heading uptown at 33rd street around 7:30 PM.
Arti
At Pelham they were saying door Problems I don't know for sure since I was not on the R142A yesterday. However today I was on the train and the doors in car 7267 did not open at 51 Street this morning. I picked up a R.C.I at Brooklyn Bridge and he did not know the cause of the problem. We did keep the train in service to Pelham then it was taken out of service for R142A School car.
Does anyone know the total amount of R-142 cars that are in the TA yards to date?
Did you look at the R142 delivery page?
-dave
Does anyone have an idea of how many more cars can be stored before the TA runs out if storage and must either scrap some Redbirds or the the plants to hold up delivery?
Please visit Bushlite.net. It is hilarious.
Dan
nyrail.cjb.net
Here's an issue that some sub talkers may be able to throw some light on. On the Moscow Metro's home page there's a link to site on current and historical Metro cars. This includes, at http://www.metro.ru/cars/german-c/, a page which, while it is in Russian cyrillic and therefore can't be read by me, appears to be about the transfer of Berlin U Bahn Seimens and other cars to the Moscow Metro. The date of this transfer would appear to be in the 1940's and, if one of the accompanying photos is any guide, the cars may have been expropriated, for want of a better word, during the Soviet occupation of Berlin. I assume that the gauge of the Moscow Metro is five feet, so the cars would have had to have been regauged.
Can anyone shed any further light on this?
The article says that 120 U-Bahn cars were transfewred in summer of 1945 from the Soviet part of Berlin to Moscow and Poland. To operate the U-Bahn they used modified (wide trucks) streetcars with platform extenders.
The article says nothing about trucks but I would guess they replaced the trucks with Russian gauga (1520mm)
Arti
These were the type C cars which were confiscated from Germany after WWII.
Thanks to you and Arti for the information
120 C cars (wide profile, built 1926-30) went to Moscow as reparations in 1945, where some were rebuilt as trailers. They were withdrawn in 1965-66; in Berlin the C-class ran until 1975.
According to the article in Russian some of them were sent to Poland to serve on suburban lines.
Arti
Are you sure those weren't the Berlin S-Bahn cars? I never heard of U-Bahn cars in Poland, but a lot of S-Bahn cars from the 1920s had pantographs mounted on the roofs and were used in Warsaw and Gdansk commuter services for many years. In the USSR some ran after WWII Moscow-Domodedovo and Tallinn-Paskull.
There is a way to translate this web page into English. Under the Altavista (www.altavista.com) search engine web page, there is Babel fish translator, which when typing the web address and click the selection translate Russian to English.
About a couple of weeks ago, while some work in front of my house a R62A "3" train passed in front of my house. I looked as the train cruised by when the last car had graffitti on the side. I mean big time 70's style graffitti. I was down on street level and far enough not to catch the car # but saw the graffitti. I tried to see if this train would make a return trip but it did not. Thats the closest Ive seen big time graffitti on a subway car.
Train#1903Mike
I guess the die-hards still TRY and tag the trains, but since you didn't see it return, then NYCT's 0-tolerance policy must have kicked in and the train was probably ordered out of service for cleaning.
wayne
They should have a train with 70's style graffitti down at the transit museum. It would help paint an accurate picture of the MTA's history and the little kiddies could see what a real graffitti train looks like. They could fill the inside with 70's ads and have a video kiosk playing the opening to "Suturday Night Feaver".
[They should have a train with 70's style graffitti down at the transit museum]
I say let's not have a train with 70's style graffitti at the Transit Museum. We don't want to give a new generation ideas.
Bill "Newkirk"
Not a bad idea. This generation of trains should be the bland silver and gray - as said in my earlier post - but why not? How about the 70s map while we're at it - early 70s with each line getting its own color.
Hmmm... maybe they should order ALOT of glass and metal walls and get that into effect for Scratchiti. They'll probably need to seat covers too.
running on...
Well lately, Ive been seeing washed out graffitti markings on the sides of the R46's.
Train#1904Mike
I am so sickened by all these 70s & scratchiti forms of graffiti in our subway system. There are always some jerk out there that are setting bad examples for our next generation. Over the weekend I was watching MTV's Real World (please kill me!) and MTV started doing these ads for various artists... via subway scratchiti! The promos would show the artists' names etched on what appeared to be R32 (E) side windows, one artist after another. This certainly doesn't do anything to help MTA's 0-tolerance policy, especially on a channel that target young audiences. What I like to know is, WHAT ARE THEY THINKING????
Sadly this year, I've witnessed 2 scratchitiers do their stuff on the (7). The first one was white male with 2 other white late-teens/early-20s men all in heavy-padded black jackets. The second was 2 weeks ago by a big white male mid-20s but he looked like your typical everyday commuter... until he took out his key (?) or some metallic object.
The people who design the scratchiti TV spots are in general those who see stuff like that as a form of art, the same way Norman Mailer did that book back in the 1970s lauding the work of the graffiti artists on the subways. And like Mr. Mailer, their goal in life is to become rich enough through their TV ads so they never have to ride the subways again and have to look at the actual consequences of that stuff five days a week, 50 weeks a year.
I actually saw an art professor give a presentation on '70s "subway art" to his class, complete with a video and guest speaker, who was apparently a veteran of the subway art scene. There's nothing like encouraging creativity!
After which he probably took Metro North back to his house, no doubt.
or the LIAR
I think these are "R"s that lay up down on 4th Avenue north of 59th Street; there has been some tagging going on there of late.
They try their best to clean it up as soon as it appears; more power to them.
wayne
these guys are trying very hard to vandalize property. two days ago i road an R-68 N train (5501 i think) that had residue left over from 70's bigtime graffitti. its a good thing that the MTA has 0 tolerance on this thing. its horrible to see graffitti on these trains. there should be higher security at the yards.
I would guess whoever did it is either an aging tagger with "graffiti nostalga" for the bygone days of the 70s and early 80s, or one of our developing yutes with a dream that the MTA will get lax again and they can become the "Taki 183" of the 21st Century -- the artist who trailblazes a new era of spraypainted murals on subway trains. Which is why the MTA has to be ever-vigilent to clean those things ASAP, so the taggers get the idea quickly that all the work they went though was for nothing.
I think if the graffitti community organized themselves they could defeat the MTA.
The MTA should take another route. Stealing from WW1 ship camoflague they should paint all the subway cars in a "razzle dazzle" multi coloured paint scheeme what looks sorta like graffitti, but it really just abstract art (ie no words or letters). If anybody did try to tag a train nobody would notice. The subway cars would hide in palin sight. As for who paints the trains that would be done by hiring former talented 70's graffitti artists who now desperatly need real jobs.
How dare you even mention that !!!!
Spoken like a true non-resident
Peace,
ANDEE
No, either tongue-in-cheek, or the idiot we have learned he is.
-Hank
Why am I an idiot for being open minded. Unlike some people I see some graffitti as art and I am often impressed in the time, effort and skill that went into some of the pieces. When my feinds family bought a building for a restaurant one of the building had some large pieces of graffitti art including a very large Smurf. I am not condoning the destruction of private property and all graffitti that does so is wrong, however I will not close my eyes to the fact that some graffitti pieces are very cool.
In abandonned locations (such as the Paulins Kill Viaduct) graffitti art can turn the location into a phsycodelic wonderland. Most MTA trains are a dull stainless steel that could desperatly use a splash of colour. Look at what they do in that Europe place everyone is always touting about.
The MTA can continue striving for that "one city, one look" ideal and try to sweep their graffitti covered past under the rug or they they could they could wrap multi-coloured trains and completely defeat the graffitti artists' purpose to be "different".
The 70's graffitti train is a part of MTA history and good or bad they should acknowledge it, if not on special trains then at the Transit Museum. I do not like revisionist history.
Hey now, let the debate continue! Just like the election we will never come to conclusion on this subject. ART or CRIME.
If these murals were posted up in a museum, I assume most everybody would call this art. Posted on our beloved subway cars our objective points of view are thrown out and we now see this as vandalism. Again it is not the painting that is the problem but the location of the paintings.
Canvas painting in a museum would be considered art, the same painting on the side of an R62A#3 considered vandalism.
I for one love this discussion, let's take the gloves off and recount those ballots in Florida.
Later,
Why do you say ART or CRIME. It is usually ART AND CRIME. The 2 are not exclusive events. However not all graffitti is crime. Painting stuff in truely abandonned locations like the Paulins Kill is not a crime. I say if graffitti can be good art why can't the MTA have a programme to have its trains wrapped or painted in genuine or faux graffitti art.
It has been said in another part of this thread, but the main problem with the graffiti isn't the graffiti - it's being able to tell where you're going. Personally, my opinion is this. I agree that some graffiti art is mass awesome. However, in my opinion, the bland and boring gray, while bland and boring, has given the subway a more upmarket look. Wasn't it true that in the 70s a lot of people who ride the subway now looked down on it as being "what all those ruffians ride"? The place was stereotyped (fairly or unfairly) as a haven for crooks. Now obvioulsy that wasn't all true to begin with, but that stereotype is much gone....so here's my point.
The subways should be kept the bland gray because it actually helps to attract ridership. If graffitists choose to tag stations in areas that upper-west side types would never ride (14th St/Canarsie anyone?) then by all means leave the stations that way. But not the trains.
The Budapest Metro usually has clean and well-painted trains. They are uniform in appearance. But the stations! My oh my, there are stations (especially on the M2) where there is not a square inch of concrete that hasn't been sprayed!
The trains need to look good...the stations shoyuld be on an individual basis. 72nd on the 1/2/3/9? No way. Woodlawn on the 4? Yeah sure why not.
<...the stations shoyuld be on an individual basis. 72nd on the 1/2/3/9? No way. Woodlawn on the 4? Yeah sure why not. >>
I need some more clarification on this. Maybe I'm reading this the wrong way. So I am responding to the way I read it.
Does that mean only people on the Upper West Side want (or deserve) grafitti-free stations? I'm from the Bronx and do not want to see grafitti in any of the stations I use. I feel that it looks awful no matter how "talented" the piece is. I feel that it degrades the area and the station I use. I'm sure there are people who live in other boroughs and neighborhoods that feel the same way. I personally feel that since the Upper West Side crowd make up a large part of those people who tend to defend people who do grafitti, maybe they should be the ones that should see it the most often. After all, if they believe it to be art, then there is nothing wrong with a little art to decorate their station.
Let ARTS FOR TRANSIT make the decisions as to what "ART" should be decorating our stations and our trains.
wayne!
SUPPORT OUR NYC ARTS FOR TRANSIT PROGRAM
What is Arts For Transit?
Is there a website for the organization?
Arts for transit is the arm of the MTA responsible for art in their stations. They have a section on the MTA's website.
Peace,
ANDEE
Heres a link,
ARTS FOR TRANSIT
PEACE,
ANDEE
>>>Woodlawn on the 4? Yeah sure why not. <<<
Because speaking as someone who lives in that area I would not want it!
Peace,
ANDEE
The crime is not the art but the private or public property that it is done on. If these people bought a $ 1000.00 canvas to erect a mural to post up on a museum wall. Would you consider that crime?
If the same people broke into one of the layups around town only to produce the same mural on the side of one of the MTA's cars, would you consider that crime?
Graffiti's value as art is dubious when the A) Windows B) Route Signs and C) Subway Maps are completely sprayed over, which is the way the situation was in the 1970s and early 80s when the cultural crowd that never rode the subways on a regular basis were praising the spray painters to high heaven.
But if you opaque everthing with Krylon, that makes it impossible to tell what station you're arriving at, what train is sitting at the platform as you make a mad dash downstairs (N or R, E or F, 4 or 5, etc.) and what route or transfer point you need to use if you're not a veteran of the system who knows every route.
There was even a book that came out back in 1984 called SUBWAY ART.
Somehow, a photographer gained the trust of all the magor taggers of the time and he was allowed to photograph them doing their works.
It was almost like one big National Geographic article. The law was so lax that there are photographs of kids drinking out of 40 oz beer bottles and smoking joints. No black bars across the eyes either. The faces of each artist was easily recognizable. One even posed for his photo reclining on a third rail.
I AGREE it is an art depending on where it is. they do have a krylon art museum in Long Island City Queens where it is considered art. for some reason, these low lives are ether ruthless or stupid to not know where art should be placed. they should know by now that this is MTA-government property and not their gangsta property. now that mylar is coming out, i hope they get the message.
How about painting your house and car like that !!!!
How about painting your house and car like that !!!!
Mike lives in Haddonfield. Several years ago a homeowner there painted his house purple and all hell broke loose.
Only if I get to paint 'FU-- MARS! and Santa Claus on the windsheild. The side windows get Alfred E. Neumann, and the house just gets randomly placed splatters. It's not revisionist history. We don't keep mass crematoriums around, do we? It's part of history.
-Hank
my cousin's house is painted desert camouflage
no joke - swashes of beige, brown, and small black and white specks
Everybody around him moved away. There was also a guy who lived on Kings Highway and as an act of protest he put neon splotches all over his door when a state delegation was in town. The Borough parked a moving van in front of his house.
1) Subway trains are a blank canvas.
2) A lot of graffitti is curce words, scralled letters or ramdom splotches.
If the TA adopted a graffitti design for some of its cars.
1) It would be real art not curses.
2) It would probably appeal to many of the artsy types who live in NYC.
3) Bad graffitti would not show up on it.
4) The trains would no longer be a blank canvas.
5) The taggers would no longer be origional, rebel, non-conformists and would probably loose interest in painting trains.
I dunno. I did my first apartment in colors borrowed from Hoyt-Schermerhorn, B'way-Lafayette (the old colors) and Nostrand IND.
Mike go see the Phun Phactory (take the #7 to 45 Road Court Square) in Long Island City for an exhibit of this art form; this work is correctly done and done so under the proper auspices; it may bring back bad memories of floridly painted trains to some but it is quite impressive to behold. You can also view it from the #7 train as it mounts the roller-coaster curve between HP and 45th Road stations. You can't miss it.
wayne
[In abandonned locations (such as the Paulins Kill Viaduct)
Where is this Paulins Kill Viaduct ?
Bill "Newkirk"
Where is this Paulins Kill Viaduct ?
It's part of the Lackawanna cutoff in northern Warren County near Delaware Water Gap. The Cutoff crosses the Delaware River where I-80 westbound meets the river and turns north.
Its right off of NJ 92 west of Blairstown.
I can hear Lt. Garber now: "You're a sick man, Rico."
I saw an R10 #3124 to be exact that looked exactly like that. There were so many layers of graffitti on it you couldn't tell one tag from the other and they all blended together.
wayne
I remember seeing a present-day Redbird back in 1980 which appeared to have had a whole can of paint just splattered all over its side. Everything was obliterated - car sides, windows, you name it. UGH! Remember Judy Carne on Laugh-in when she used to say "Sock it to me!"? This car looked as if it had said that. Ker-splat!
One of the more memorable experiences with full-tilt graffitti occurred in early spring of 1973 when the R44's were fairly new to the "F". I would get on at 179th Street, head for a window seat on the opposite side of the car (away from the open doors) and plop myself down. One day I did this as usual, busied myself with the paper for a bit, tried to doze off then we were announced for Union Turnpike (must have slept thru Parsons') and I looked up and out the window and to my surprise, I saw NOTHING. Absolutely nothing. Solid black. The train was crowding up and we moved on. Then we got to 71st Avenue and stopped again (the station was still incandescent) and I looked out again and again saw nothing. This got me wondering. I knew for sure we were in a station, and soon I put two and two together. I knew it had to be a monstrosity, a massive mural or more! And on an R44! The car number, I had noted, was #124 (today's #5268). I was getting very curious as to what this really was. At Lexington, I got off and THERE IT WAS. Seventy-five feet long, and better than seven feet high, in fact, it covered the entire side and extended in blobs onto the car roof. It was the work of KILLER I, out of Queens, whose name I had seen on dozens of other cars.
This information is from my graffitti sighting journal that I kept from late 1972 to mid-1974:
It had a black background, with yellow letters shaded to orange, then red, bordered in orange, highlighted with copper, light blue, white, and grey. It also featured a nasty cartoon face with a Rolling-stones type tongue, a gallows (with a swinging corpse), a heart with a bleeding dagger through it, a Godzilla-type monster stomping on cars, buses and people... The car number was stylized in the lower left hand corner of the car body (as was the habit of many the Queens graffitti artists back then) It was unbelievable.
You should have seen what they did to Slant R40 #4412-4413 and #4332-4333! "...And a torso even more so!" (Groucho Marx)
wayne
Wait a minute, here. Wayne, am I reading this correctly? You entered a subway car -- dozed off -- and when you awoke, the car was covered with a graffiti mural???
If that's the case: Man, some of those guys work FAST!!!
BMTman
No. When I got on the train at 179th Street, I entered the train from the side OPPOSITE where the mural was placed, so I did NOT see the mural, which was no doubt there already. I did not realize that it was there initially; I figured that out after having been unable to see out of the window. This car was the fifth car in the train.
sorry for the confusion
wayne
I'll bet you wouldn't have dozed off on an R-6/7 F train - not with the all the sounds those cars gave off.:-)
As if there wasn't enough razor wire already.
During our excursion two weeks ago, we went up to Bedford Park Blvd. on the 4, which overlooks Concourse Yard (or is it Woodlawn Yard?) in the hope of getting a glimpse of the R-62s which were damaged in that collision on the middle track. There is razor wire everywhere - on the fence tops, even above the station canopy on the southbound size. Wayne took one look at all that razor wire and said, "They DO NOT want ANYONE in that yard!"
The sad thing is that (if this hasn't already happened) sooner or later, someone is going to evade the various deterrents, get in, get seriously hurt, and sue Transit and/or the city for their injuries. What's even sadder is with all the PC morons they find for juries, they'd win, too. I haven't missed that aspect of NYC at all.
There were no r68s 1n the seventies. IIRC that number is r46, which look like r68s and run on the r
Why does the Pelham Parkway Station on the 2 and 5 lines only have light bulbs and not florescent lighting?
Don't know - probably they haven't gotten round to replacing the fixtures yet. I believe there is flourescent light in the mezzanine and station-house, as well as the stairwells.
Middletown Road on the #6 line is another one with bulbs. So is Bedford Park on the #4 but only outside the platform sheds. I like the old lights.
wayne
Pelham Parkway's station houses (it does have two, one of which is only open during AM rush hours) do have flourescent lights and it has escolators. But it is odd that Pelham is the only stop on the White Plains Road line without flourescents on the platforms. While fixtures were being assembled piece by piece at the other stations, nothing happened at Pelham.
The Transportation Bond Act does not refer specifically to a Second Avenue Subway. It just mentions rapid transit. Is there a legal or political reason for this?
It's a moot point now.
The R142's....when is the testing on the 5 line going to begin?
What will they do with the R142's after they "kick the redbirds" out?
Will they go on the rest of the A division?
The "testing" phase is over, isn't it?
R-142s will begin to replace the redbirds on the #2 line, and R-142As will begin to replace the cars on the #6 line.
When the #2 line is running all R-142s, then subsequent deliveries will be placed in service on the #5.
At least that is what I think has been said. Corrections are welcome.
so the 4's will keep the R62's?
That and maybe an additional two sets of Redbirds due to that collision.
Train#1905Mike
rumor is that when R-142's come in on the 2 they are also getting them on the 5 simultaneously. the 5 has 42 year old redbirds. they have to go.
While riding the Oyster Bay line today I always notice this siding off of the southbound track just south of the Roslyn station.
What was this siding once used for?
Old track maps show that the siding could handle 30 cars and serviced warehouses for the following companies: Seboard Pools, Harris Flooring Co., Impact Extrusions and Nassau Grain Co.
[... and Nassau Grain Co.]
That must be why they stopped using it, i.e. they were only getting chicken feed out of it ;-)
Mr t
Was on a Queens bound 7X at around 4:45pm just before Woodside, when I saw a Redbird going westbound with Yankee and Met logo. Was this the subway series 7 train?
Rode on it yesterday! From Queensborough to 74th/Broadway.
Where and when can I expect to pick up the Subway Series 4 in the Mid-Afternoon?
>>>Where and when can I expect to pick up the Subway Series 4 in the Mid-Afternoon? <<<
Look for it on the 2. Running on the 142 schedule that was previously posted here.
Peace,
ANDEE
Today I had an excellent ride on the E train, hitting 40+ before 71/Continental, in the stretch between Roosevelt and Queens Plaza, and the 53rd street tubes (on an R46).
I also rode the J from Broad Street to Jamaica Center. I walked over from WTC to Broad Street station and there were alot of closed entries. The only open one I could find was at Broad and Wall. Why so many closed exits?
Had a nice ride on the J train, but what is that track area on the south side of Essex? Chambers was in decrepid condition. There one person waiting at Bowery. I saw they workers going work in that station. Why not fix up Chambers instead since it is busier?
The J ride across the Willy B was slow but what a view!
Also nice express run from Marcy to Myrtle.
Also bypassed a few stations that were being fixed up. All in all a nice ride, but a long one, almost an hour.
After getting to Jamaica center I took another E (this time an R32) back to Manhattan, another fast ride.
Then the 7X back home, nice fast ride back. Lately I've been having slowpoke T/O's on the 7, nice to have a fast one.
"but what is that track area on the south side of Essex?"
I think you are referring to the old underground trolley terminal!
If I recall correctly, if you're coming from the WTC, the northernmost entry to Broad St. station is at the corner of Broad & Wall. The stairs that you might have seen under construction at the corner of Cedar & Nassau aren't for the subway specifically, they lead into the big Chase bank branch under Chase Manhattan Plaza. There is a passage from 'down there' to the Broad St. station along the edge of Nassau St. but I wouldn't call that a subway entrance.
Funny you did 40+ there are at least two 30mph Grade Timers on that run and one 25 (I'm not sure of the 25). There are two curves they slapped in GT's for that I don't think should be there. They are slight curves compared to other places.
I notice when I'm on the 7 Queens bound going through the Steinway tubes there is this shift in track near the Queens end. Is this due to
uneven alighnment of the tunnel?
Two thoughts on this one. First one must rememberthat the tunnels were not designed for rapid transit service but for streetcars, thus the shift may occur at the junction of the original and later construction. More likely is the fact that the two stations on the Queens end are outside platforms and the track alignment must adjust to bring the two trackways together for these stations after the run under the river in separate tubes.
My guess is that there was a slight alignment error when the south tube was built.
In all my 50's pics, before that hotel was built over the west end of the "9th Ave. Pit" I could see a large descending door thing positioned ofer the Hudson Portholes. There appeared to be 2 seperate sections and were attached to a pully and cable system. They look like flood doors that would be lowered to prevend a Hudson Tube flood from flooding Penn Station and the East River Tubes. Is this a correct assessment? Are they still there? Are/Were there flood doors over the East River Tubes?
There are flood doors on the east end, but I don't think they're useable anymore.
Is Penn Station lower than the river tubes?
The Penn Station tracks and platforms is lower than the river. If the tubes flooded somwhow the water would go on to full penn station and the East Riven tubes. Or if the Hudson river overflowed they could prevent the tunnels from flooding.
[The Penn Station tracks and platforms is lower than the river.]
I never thought about that before. It sounds correct since the Penn Station track level is 3 levels below the street (Amtrack/NJT level, LIRR level, track level), and looking out to the Hudson River from my office here at Penn Plaza, sea level doesn't seem to be that much lower than street level.
A parolee and accomplice shot a passenger fatally during a robbery attempt at 2:48 AM Wednesday as the northbound 2 train approached the Wall Street station. They had just robbed another passenger. The perps were apprehended. Stories in the Times and Daily News.
The article said that both victims were able to get to the next car and alearted the conductor who was able to promptly broadcast a description of the suspect. an action which led to his capture. Sounds like a score for ToPTO.
A score for intercoms and cameras, not TwoPTO.
I heard Hillary and the rest of the dumb city residents who voted for her want the parolee rehabilitated and given another chance in society.
According to the Post the Bond act was rejected by voters, I guess we have to wait longer for the 2nd ave Subway
If anything, this could make the wait shorter.
The bond act would not only put us in debt and farther from the goal of the subway, but it would completely kill credibility for the subway boosters as the THIRD failed Second Avenue Bond Act.
Knowing what we know now, I won't even believe the Second Avenue Subway will happen when they start digging. Not until the inaugural train rolls on the tracks.
Knowing what we know now, I won't even believe the Second Avenue Subway will happen when they start digging. Not until the inaugural train rolls on the tracks.
Didn't they start digging nearly 30 years ago?
-- Ed Sachs
That's why?
That's why I say that we shouldn't believe digging.
I haven't seen the geographical breakdown yet, but the bond act was probably defeated by (a) suburban voters who are already fed up with there being an MTA surcharge on their phone bills and a portion of tolls going for transit; and (b) people made cynical by the results of the previous bond issue that resulted in two filled-up holes under Second Avenue.
According to a frequently played commercial, this bond act would have benefitted motorists as well. That's the one where the woman stuck in traffic amid sound effects of horns honking is describing it as "unsafe..boring..a waste of time". Funny how she doesn't curse once- yeah, I know, it's a radio commercial!
I saved the issue of the defunct LONG ISLAND PRESS that detailed how the disastrous ice storm of December 1973 completely wiped out LIRR service. One weary commuter says to a reporter, "They're [the railroad] getting back at us for killing the bond issue."
Maybe a little far-fetched, but you can be sure that the next time there's a large service disruption, the shouts will start: "We should've voted for the bond issue!"
...are now available at my site for download. The catch is you can only have one set of cars on the layout at a time. In other words, you can't have R1-9 cars on the same layout as the R44/46 cars.
OK, I've finally found the mystery font! I happened to be in a store waitin in line, and I noticed the Fitness Magazine, which had an article called "Diet IQ", and I immediately recognized the "Q" as the one they use on rollsigns and map or schedule bullets. I looked in the magazine, and this font was everywhere, and the other characters matched (1, 2, J & R) I called them up, and after being forwarede a few times, I got someone in Production dept. who knew the name of the font.
In the gif below, look at lines 5, 7 and 9. (medium, bold and super. The others are light and regular, and are slightly different, as well as the italic versions). Notice, the 1 is the same as Helvetica, and the 2 and R are the same as Franklin Gothic, just as I had been saying.
So the medium or bold is what we see used on signs that do not use Helvetica. This is what R68's "5200" plaque should be done in, not Arial.
Only thing; I wanted to download it, but this site charges $169!
So what made the TA stop using Franklin Gothic in favor of Helvetica? The older font looks better on signs that still have it. The older font was unusual, but nice. We see Helvetica everywhere.
I don't think the MTA ever used Franklin Gothic, because the 1 has a bottom serif on it (like the one you see now in Times Roman), and I don't recall ever seeing that on MTA maps or signs. They did use the condensed versions of Helvetica or Akzidenz in the past.
They pretty much alternate between Helvetica and Akzidenz, and sometimes the character in the bullet will be Akzidenz while the text is Helvetica. Can be hard to tell, since they look so similar with the exception of a few characters.
Oh, it's called Akzidenz. I don't now why, but I thought it looked distinctive, mostly the R, S, 2 and 5, from Helvetica. I still see signs in Akzidenz, but it looks like Helvetica is replacing it.
I didn't notice any difference in the 5.
On the R-32/32, R-40 and R-68 side signs, the new replacements have been with Helvetica Bold. I noticed this back when the 68's were still on the Q. And when there's an 32 on the R, you can see this. I see the Helv. "R" on the 46 front signs as well. (station/platform signs use Helv. as well, and I'm not sure if they ever used AkzGr., because I'm only recently taking notice of this). Now on the 42's the AkzGr. "J" (backwards "L") has been replaced by a Helvetica J, (candycane) but the latter is used with the AkzGr characters on the maps, schedule pamphlets, MVM station posters, etc. so this is just a modification of AG the TA has done, and some of these signs I think are like this, but it's hard to tell because these cars don't run on the Q or R. The 40/42 side signs always used the candycane J.
So it seems Helvetica is replacing Akzidenz Grotesk on signs, but on paper (maps, schedules, notices, posters), they are sticking firmly with AG. Like the person told me, it is supposed to be their
"corporate look".
Here are AG Medium and bold by themselves
I forgot to mention that on the IRT the reverse is happening. The redbird signs have AkzGr replacing Helv. R-62/a's are always AkzGr.
5200
coming next year to the
Ditmars Blvd, Astoria
Coney Island
Always knew the MTA used a Helvetica-like font that wasn't quite Helvetica.
My question is:
What is the font that the DOT uses on its green and whites? It's been in use on street signs since the vinyl sins firs began appearing in 1964. This font comes in both regular and condensed versions.
I've been using a similar font, Blue Highway, to simulate the DOT green and whites for my signs on...
www.forgotten-ny
but it's not QUITE the same. Blue Highway is the font you see on the big green signs on Interstates...
I was wondering what the street sign font was. It is like Helvetica, except that the R is like AkZidenz or franklin Gothic (straight leg). The Q, J and 2 are like Helv. IIRC. I forgot what the other differences with Helv., if any, were. The DOT probably just made it up or had some firm make it for them.
Hey, I've been wondering what and where I could find the interstate sign font. The distinctive characteristic of that one is that all of the large lowercase letters such as d, h, k, l and p have the slanted edges (usually only the t has this). The lowercase g is also distinctive.
Where can I find this font?
The Federal Highway Administration published a guide in 1979 specifying fonts for highway signs. I have the book around here somewhere, but I can't find it right now. You can read all about it at this site, though.
There's a great little Java applet called SignMaker at www.kurumi.com that lets you make your own signs :).
Thanks. BTW, The link points to http://www.nycsubway.org/cgi-bin/www.kurumi.com, which will give you an error message (you have to remove the reference to www.nycsubway.org)
To download the font from Font Bureau caosts $40
Also, one of the variants is probably the same font used on NYC street signs, only it's hard to tell, since lowercase letters are never used. (I was wrong' the "G" is not like Helvetica, but somewhat like Interstate)
Whoops... I forgot the http:// in the link. Not thinking today. Obviously, that should be www.kurumi.com; no more HTML for me today :)
>>>The Federal Highway Administration published a guide in 1979 specifying fonts for highway signs. I
have the book around here somewhere, but I can't find it right now. You can read all about it at this
site, though. <<
That gets you to the Font Bureau, which has a number of interesting fonts for sale. The one referred to here is called Interstate. It resembles both Blue Highway and the font used on NYC street signs to a great degree though it isn't QUITE the same (the S's are very different.) I've contacted them abt getting Interstate, but there are a couple of technical questions I have for them first. Thanks.
BTW, New York City DOT can be located here:
http://www.ci.nyc.ny.us/html/dot/
They offer custom-made signs using the font I'm interested in, but alas, not the font itself.
www.forgotten-ny.com
Has the afternoon rush J schedule been altered? The 16:38 now leaves Broad at 16:40, and it's now a local east of Myrtle Ave. Have they cut Z service? The 16:38 used to be the first scheduled skip-stop in the afternoon.
Yes, the J line's PM rush skip-stop schedule has been altered. It is now:
Leaving Broad Street:
J- 5:00, :10, :20, :30, :40
Z- 4:55, 5:05, :15, :25, :35, :45
Why? Have they reduced the number of Z trains, or have they altered the schedule with the same number of trains?
Regardless of the schedule change, THERE ARE NOT ENOUGH TRAINS!!!!!!!!!!!
What they did is they turned the last J from a skip-stop train to an all stop train. The amount of Z trains remains the same. And they began PM skip-stop service 20 minutes later. Why the change? I dunno.
When the Willy Bridge re-opened after repair last year, I recall a note on this site saying the number of riders on the 'L' line had increased - they were diverted from the J for the rebuilding and stayed on the 'L'.
They must still be there as the 'L' service has increased at the expense of the 'J/M/Z' group of lines - check the PM inbound schedules for the 'L' and you can see the list of trains into 8th Ave - they have to leave again in 2-4 minutes so that gives you an idea of the PM outbound on the 'L'.
So it appears the J/M/Z have lost a few to compensate.
The L train seems to be a bit faster than the J/Z line in the time it takes for it to get from 8th Ave to Eastern Pkwy, which is where it sees alot more people get off to take the J/Z. And it always had so many trains running at rush hour.
The L line has always has a quick turnaround at 8th Ave. even before thw WB fix-up.
L trains departing 8th Ave. between the hours of 5 pm-6 pm operate at a 4 minute headway and have 15 departures between 5 and 6.
This ridership demographic change was temporary. Everything has returned to pre-Willy B closure patterns. I understand that the L has increased ridership in recent years but these riders aren't comimg from the J/M/Z line any more.
If there was a service cut in favor of the L over the J/M/Z, then it isn't justfied, unless the L is in a desperate need for more cars.
Did I miss something, but besides running for President Heypaul hasn't been seen by me in like a month. I'm starting to miss his antics.
Maybe he's moved on up to be vavpaul.
heypaul isn't running for President -- he's running for his life! ;-)
He's probably tired of all the off-topic posts.
Peace,
ANDEE
heypaul's in limbo; check out Graffiti Wall.
Well you can't SEE him here, but I did last week-end at 59th St, then there he was again at the Transit Museum. He also rode with a group of us to Coney Island where we ran into Trevor & SubBus as we left our train. The funny part was that he was carrying a Greyhound book.
Mr t__:^)
My only problem w/ this recent crackdown on off topic posts is that there has been nothing to replace them. The volume of posts over the last few dasy has been very light. I don't meet m(any) railfans up here and SubTalk is the only place I can have a conversation about trains and transit. On weekends its especially bad and if you discount all the poticical posts we've had a weekend volume for 5 days straight. I'd rather read an off topic post than no posts at all so if you want to eliminate off topic posts post more on topic posts. Please! I've already promised not to flood the board w/ my "summer series" lame posts so its up to all of you.
Thank you for listening.
Since a number of SubTalkers have expressed a preference to avoid using up our time opening off topic posts, some have expressed a desire to continue posting off topic posts and others have suggested that you take it elsewhere, we face a conundrum.
It has become apparent that you should establish a new message board. You will derive great joy from it, many SubTalkers will enjoy participating in it, and those who prefer to manage their time by reading a limited number of posts on the topics of subways, trolleys, light rail, trains, &c will be accommodated.
Such a message board already exists. It's called the Graffiti Wall, and can be found at www.NthWard.com/cgi-bin/graffiti.cgi.
The Graffiti Wall could use the extra traffic, and I'm sure Dave would be happy to see SubTalk get back to transit topics. Works out well for everybody, huh?
-- David
Chicago, IL
Yes, you hadn't promoted that for that purpose earlier.
I started the Off Subtalk that didn't catch on. I think maybe it would have caught on OVER TIME, but I doubt it.
Mike, One of the things you'll discover by LISTENING here are all the other sites available. I have bookmarks, thanks to many SubTalkers, of transit sites all over the country, e.g. NH (mostly steam group), TA web site, Boston group, IRM, Seashore, several LI groups (incl. Bob Anderson/LIRR), several trolley groups, ERA, etc., etc.
Mr t__:^)
As I just said in another post, I know all the people here and I enjoy talking with you all. The problem is at all the sites you kindly mentioned the %age of posts I would would find of interest would be significantly lower than at SubTalk. On all my e-mail lists (10 at last count) I probably delete 95% of the messages w/o even reading them. SubTalk is the only MB that I have found so far that has remained consistantly interesting and heavyly patronized. Do you know about a SouthJersey Talk?
[SubTalk is the only MB that I have found so far that has remained consistantly interesting and heavyly patronized.]
Mike, I'll be the first to admit that I do the same, but I do spend time at: Shoreline (on-line ver. of newsletter that members can see); IRM (nice photo & stories); City Search (what MC are avail); MRLI aka Trainland (they (he) does a frequent piece on Public Access TV, and incl. links to steam group at Riverhead); Danbury (I like diesels in red & black !); Paul Matus, Tom Scanrello, Trevor & Gary's sites (lots of photos). So you can see I come here to talk & listen, go there to see.
Mr t__:^)
Oh, those are other sites. Well yes I visit a whole slew of Train and Trainsit sites and I have downloaded about 600-800 megs (compressed) of Railroad images. I like George Elwood's site, Eastern Rail News, The Signalbox, Henery Morscher's Site and a bunch of others. I've spend the last 4-5 years colleting railroad images and I've come to a point where I would just like to talk to people. Before Subtalk my only contact w/ other railfans was "on location" a few times a year. The Aug 5th trip was my first ever organized railfan trip w/ other railfans (my Dad not counting).
I'm in there now.
Gah... I can't get the webchat stuff to work. There any IRC server I can connect from?
irc.cjb.net
Channel #metrocard
Just a few minutes ago, the R142 passed by on the Livonia El. It was going through its testing procedures. Stef, be on the lookout in about a hour and a half.
Train#1906Mike
Got it! Eyes and ears are peeled. You didn't know that 6336-40 were getting delivered on Monday Night?
-Stef
Sure didnt, although yesterday I heard screeching from the work cars on the curve from Linden to the 3 line. I also looked at the Linden shops from across Linden Blvd and all I saw was work cars. Ill keep my ears and eyes out.
Train#1907Mike
Hey, Mike. Good looking out!
Yeah, we figured they do the movements of the 142's on off-peak hours.
Too bad we're in daylight's savings time which does not allow for great photo-taking opportunities.
If things go smoothly Stef should be able to make a report later tonight.
BMTman
> Too bad we're in daylight's savings time which does not allow
> for great photo-taking opportunities.
Actually, we have been out of Daylight Savings Time and in Standard Time for over a week now. Did you forget to turn your clocks back?
- Lyle Goldman
Since a few people are complaining that the topics here are getting a little stale, I decided that we should have a thoughtful discussion about how it could have been.
Imagine that instead of Eisenhower creating the Interstate Highway System, that a rail equivilant was created instead. How would that change everything we know today?
Here's that I think. At the time the interstates were created, cars seemed like the future of everything. They were getting bigger, faster and more affordable. The orignal purpose of the interstate system was to transport the military across the country quickly. Because at the time it took forever to drive across the country. One design element that was proposed for the highways was "landing pads" on the side of the road for flying cars! Remember, back then the flying car would have been invented by the 70's at the latest!
When you think about it, is the automobile the best way to move a large number of troops and equipment? I don't believe so. Trains seem like a much more cost efficent way to produce the same result. Planes were still not in the jet age yet, so that probably wasn't a consideration then. If the car wasn't in it's "golden age" at that time I think that a rail system, perhaps high speed, would have been built.
Now think about what happened when the highways were built, suburbs sprang up like a mutha f---. By the 60's, the transit systems in the country started to decline because of the new high tech highways. If a nationwide high speed rail system was in place in the same way interstates are today, would there be suburbs and sprawl like we know it? I don't believe so. We would have really dense cities, perhaps like New York, all over the country. We would have more greenspace, pollution would proabaly be higher in the cities than they are today, but at least it would be concentrated and not spread all over the place like my hometown. Rail would probaly be cheap to use, since that would be the primary way people would commute between cities. People would probably have more money, because they wouldn't have car or insurance payments to worry about. But most importantly, us railfans could spend our whole lives riding the rails, and never cover the same area twice!
It wouldn't be a perfect world, cuz there are surely problems with having the huge rail network like that. I really don't any, but they are there. I still think it couldn't be near as bad as it is today.
What are some other things that could have or could not have happened? Let's hear some opinions.
I generally try to avoid "what-if" speculation, but you do bring up some interesting ideas. Come of think of it, I'm not going to posit some "what-if's" of my own, but instead will say that the Interstate Highway system was largely inevitable. It's not uncommon for people to think that the ascendency of motor vehicles over trains resulted from the building of the interstates. In fact, the precise opposite was true. Motor vehicles had become a basic part of American life many years earlier, a trend somewhat slowed but not halted by World War Two. Suburbanization also long pre-dated the Interstates. Similarly, the glory days of passenger rail travel were over well before the 1950's. In short, the growth of auto use and the rise of the suburbs made development of the Interstates a near-necessity.
>>rise of the suburbs made development of
the Interstates a near-necessity. <<
well not quite--the Dan Ryan--one of the first "urban" interstates was built to relieve the South Shore Drive, but the first day they were both parking lots and the Rock Island and Illinois Central "suburban" trains (which both had many stations within city limits)
had 5000 fewer riders. cart?, horse?, egg?...
however, Daley I building of the Ryan and the concurrent desertification of huge tracts of the South Side certainly promoted white flight to the 'burbs.
I'd have to do some reading up to get the exact dates, but I'm pretty sure the Congress (now Eisenhower) Expressway predates the Dan Ryan. Even if the Dan Ryan was built first, the idea of the Congress Expressway had been on the drawing boards since Burnham's Plan of Chicago in the early part of the century. Hence, why the 1930's-era Main Post Office was built to span the still-unbuilt expressway.
Speaking of white flight, the location of the Dan Ryan was deliberately planned to prevent "white flight" from the city, by creating a huge physical barrier between the rapidly-expanding black ghetto of the South Side and the white working-class neighborhoods like Daley's own Bridgeport. The location of the expressway was actually shifted several blocks east during the planning stages in order to create a more effective racial barrier. (At 4 local lanes and 2 express lanes in each direction, along with the Red Line rapid transit down the median, the Dan Ryan still ranks as one of the widest and busiest expressways in the world and is indeed quite an impressive barrier.)
However, as we know, things didn't always work out as planned... The planners knew that these new expressways would provide a convenient way into the city, somehow forgetting that expressways go in two directions.
You could almost think of Richard J. Daley as the Robert Moses of Chicago, but at least he had the sense to include rapid transit as part of the project.
-- David
Chicago!
Congress was indeed planned and built earlier,but was explicitly not an interstate. The Ryan marked the flow of Interstate monies to urban freeways.--see comments in Garreau-Edge Cities. Although the Red Line runs down the median, it was some ten years plus after the highway opened for autos. And the data about ridership loss on the CRIP, and IC stands. The Ryan helped kill both "local" and near -in usage particularly on the Rock Island. It may be that was likely anyhow--consider C&NW on the West line, but IMHO neither desireable nor positive.
The Dan Ryan opened in 1962, IIRC. I can vaguely remember when it was being built. There was a chasm dug out where Marquette Rd. crosses over it, and I noticed it one day when we were on our way home and were about to enter the Skyway. The Dan Ryan took away a lot of traffic from Michigan and Indiana Avenues, which were tied into the Skyway originally. The long exit ramps over Englewood Yard, which intrigued me to no end, are gone now.
My father remembers when people referred to the Ryan as the "Damn Ryan".
One of CTA's calendars has a 1958 photo of the just-opened Congress Expressway with a 6000-series train in the median, with an Edsel also visible on the highway.
The fact is we already HAD an amazing rail system. Everywhere you could put an RR had an RR. The problem with a 50's hi-speed system is that it only serves cities. More affluent people prefer to live in the suburbs. The suburbs demand a car for local travel. Many people do not like having to ride a crummy commuter train into a city to catch a train. They would prefer to drive to an out of the way terminal like an airport. If hi-seed rail only serves the cities people will still need cars and if everyone has a car why take the train. What Eisenhower could have done is made Railraods tax exempt and possibly removed some regulations. Our country is too big and spread out so local travel is better by car and long distance travel is better by air.
Here's what I could see working. RR's get tax breaks and some deregulation. With some federal money they hi(er) speed corridors where possible and to rejuvinate other rail lines in the modern Amtrak image. Trains would compete w/ the interstate bus market and also deliver mail and express. To make this system last they would have needed to increase the cost of ground shipping via truck taxes and the like. With this I see the RR's avoiding the bankruptcy of the 70's and emerging with a much larger Amtrak style passenger network. Most cities w/ 50,000 people would get 2-4 trains a day. Corridors like NY-BUFF, BOS to ALB, DC to RICH, Crestline to CHI, CHI to DET, CLE to CIN, etc etc would all be running c. 100 mph and the NEC would liik probably the same. The 150mph technology was not arind in the 50's and you forget the NEC was a huge freight line. The tracks didn't go local express express local, but more like passenger freight freight passenger. Also don't forget that most of our country has mountains with all types of curves that limit speed. These are just some observations
>>> Imagine that instead of Eisenhower creating the Interstate Highway System, that a rail equivilant was created instead..... The orignal purpose of the interstate system was to transport the military across the country quickly <<<
Wait a minute! In the ‘50s there was already an extensive rail network, and it had been used quite well during the ‘40s to move the military and military supplies across the country. The building of the interstate highway system was to facilitate the further use of the automobile backed by all those interests (auto makers, tire makers, oil companies, highway builders) who make up the highway lobby. The movement of troops was just an excuse to loosen the federal purse strings.
Eisenhower himself participated in the 1920 cross country Army convoy, which took a month to complete over many unpaved roads, and he had seen the autobahns in Germany, so he was aware of the value of good roads to the military, but the United States did not need the Interstate System for military purposes.
Tom
Rail would not be the most effective method of transportation for the military. A supply line could be cut simply by damaging the rails, whereas trucks can go virtually anywhere.
That's a good point, but if there were a complex network, couldn't there be a way around it?
The point i'm trying to make is that, if it were not for the rise in the popularity of the automobile at the time that it happened (post WWII), rails might have been the big public works project of that time.
It's just an interesting idea, in my opinion. I thought of how interstate spurs (i.e., I-755, a theorectical highway), to little towns made them more economically viable, and I was wondering what if rails were extended to those little towns instead of highways, and would they have grown in a different manner.
>>> if it were not for the rise in the popularity of the automobile at the time that it happened (post WWII) <<<
You have your time frame wrong. The rise of the popularity of automobiles goes back to the end of WWI and the roaring twenties. The big boom in auto sales after WWII was from the pent up demand from those who did not have the money to purchase a car in thirties becausce of the depression, and could not find a car, or gasoline, or tires during the war because of non availability, when they had the money from increased work. These were not people who just dicovered the automobile, and they would not have used an extensive rail network if one had been built at that time as long as they had a choice to drive.
Tom
While riding Amtrak Train 283 NB to Albany last Friday, as we approached Yonkers Station, I saw new subway cars #7310 if I recall correctly. I gather they are R-142 destined for Division A service.
My questions are
1) What route would they get from there for placement into service?
2) Does anyone know whether or not a subway extension in Yonkers was ever considered and if so did the New York Central have any role in preventing it?
METROCARD & CARDHOLDERS COLLECTOR¹S CATALOG
This is an 8.5 inch x 11 inch 20 page booklet printed by the MTA. They later decided not to distribute it. It contains 20 glossy, color pages of actual size photos of 1997-99 commemorative MetroCards & cardholders. Full color photos of the Subway Series 97, Then and Now, Emigrant, JVC Jazz, Healthy City, Ferry Boat, Yankees 98, Subway Cool, Millennial Journeys, Mets International Week plus 63 Cardholders including the complete Great Subway series. All photos are actual size & full color! A beautiful collector¹s MUST HAVE. The supply is very limited. When they are gone, they are gone.
Send $10.00 ea.+ $2. P & H in check or Money Order
Made out to MICHAEL MAKMAN.
To: Prof. Putter
Po Box 755
Planet Station, NYC NY 10024
Its running !!
I caught it at 6:40 at Grand Central going to Brooklyn Bridge.
It seemed to be running normal EXECPT the automated transfer announcements were incorrect. The were for the wrong time of day.
At 14th Street - Change for the L and N (R was missing)
At Bleeker Street - Change for B and D (F and Q were missing)
At Canal - Change for J and N (M and Z were missing)
At Brooklyn Bridge - Change for 4 and J(5, M and Z were missing)
Also it appeared the T/O was having problems resetting the system because after it went thru the loop and picked up passengers going uptown, there was no automated annoucements and the side signs had not been reset.
Have a nice day !!
I know the T/O on that train he didn't program the computer at Brooklyn Bridge because he didn't have time. Also it was his first time on the train.
Couldn't the conductor program the computer?
i know something ain't wrong with system. i think that the conductors and T/O's need more training to use these systems. also they should never not reset them for it will cause customer confusion and embarrassment.
Is this the same train that ran last summer, or is this a new one? I know you gave the car numbers, but I don't quite have them all memorized yet.
- Lyle Goldman
I rode 7270 this morning, from 51 to 28 St. Some observations:
At 42 St, the automated announcement was "This is a Brooklyn Bridge-bound 6 train; the next stop is" DING! The announcement was fine at the other stations; I guess it just doesn't like 33 St.
The strip map had "Route Change - This Map Not in Use" lit, with the directional arrows flashing alternately with all the stop indicators. The maps in 7268 and 7269 were OK.
i sometimes wonder about these automated signs. is it malfunctioning or is it the conductor not knowing what is he or she doing? i road the R-142 world series twice today on the 2 (11/10/00) the first time between 14th street and chambers street, the sign malfunctioned and caught itself at park place. the riding back to the bronx it was flawless. riding to brooklyn it was flawless. riding back to the bronx. exterior lcd and interior lcd and anouncements except for "stand clear of the closing doors please!" didn't work at all. nothing was on. no blinking or anything. major embarassement. riders looked at it as another piece of crap that the MTA conjured up.
An article in Thursday's Star-Ledger discusses overcrowding on rush-hour trains and buses into Manhattan. Year ended last June 30 found 16,500 daily standees on buses and 6000 on trains on the Corridor, Coast, and Midtown Direct lines. The overcrowding is expected to get worse before improving.
A minimum-information article in Thursday's Trenton Times states that contracts have been awarded for the Morrisville Yard Project and to relieve a bottleneck north of Trenton which occurs when Corridor trains cross over to track 1 before entering the station.
Is there going to be a station built on the PA side?
Is there going to be a station built on the PA side?
Not yet. That was the subject of bickering between PA and NJ. PA demanded that Transit establish a station in PA as a quid pro quo for building Morrisville yard and Transit insisted that a PA station would destroy the Corridor schedule.
For more info, see Trentonian article.
Thanks. Are they building a flyover? Or are they going to use one of the ones I vaguely remember being in that area? I'm wondering why it will be so much easier to reverse direction there.
Hard to believe that the businesses which serve commuters in Trenton really have that much influence. A few years ago, didn't some silly NJ legislator get some rule passed to keep NJ Transit from offering new services out of state? Maybe NJ Transit just doesn't think the time is right to bring that up again, with the corridor trains already overcrowded.
But at least they are leaving space for the station. I'm pretty sure Septa would manage to build the yard in such a way as to make a new station impossible.
Back in the day FAIR interlocking was a combined operation that allowed trains to platform and tie up at Trenton station, allowed trains access to the Bel-Del line and provided a full crossover. All of this occured infront of FAIR tower just north of the platform and 3 double slip switches were invloved. Also the line was 6 tracks from FAIR to MILLHAM. More recently the Bel Del jct has been romoved and the crosover and station access functions have been decoupled. There are now 2 logical interlockings, FAIR and the extended limits of FAIR. The extended limits are a 6 track "turnout ladder" crossover that serves the main line and the small layup yards. This replaced the old N/B double slip ladder. Maybe there are some good aspects of both the new and old layouts that can be recombined to make a more efficient interlocking.
BTW there are the remains of large electrified yards on the north-west side of the tracks. Today its just fields w/ catenary poles and rusty rails, but they extend all the way to MILLHAM and might be put to use.
Here are some relevent refernces:
http://www.neuro.ccf.org/~bejm/Rail/Prr/Maps/Itlk/morris.gif
http://members.aol.com/amtrakmaps/A-7.html
http://www.neuro.ccf.org/~bejm/Rail/Prr/Maps/Itlk/fair.gif
http://members.aol.com/amtrakmaps/A-8.html
http://www.neuro.ccf.org/~bejm/Rail/Prr/Maps/Itlk/millham.gif
What do these two World's Fair cars have in common besides the fact that they both run on the 7 line and that they are currently in the same consist?
I'll take a guess and say that they were two of the World's Fair cars that carried state names ??????
One thing, though: 9336 is an R-33 single. IIRC, none of the singles had state names applied to them. Of course, I could be wrong, in which case I stand corrected.
Does anyone have a list of the car #'s and states ??
There is a photo on a different part of this site showing # 9440 as being RHODE ISLAND
What were the rest ?????
9440 - Rhode Island
9658 - Neighborhood Youth Corps
9744 - state of Missouri
9748 - Commonwealth of Massachusetts
9762 - State of Vermont
9766 - State of Kansas
Since you didn't provide an e-mail address Motorman Marc let me thank you on the board. I knew that there weren't many. I trust your list even though I don't remember the Neighborhood Youth Corps car # 9658
Anytime, glad to help...
That picture of 9440 was my Windows wallpaper for a few months :). I've been trying to track it down in service; no luck so far. Does anyone know if 9440 is still on the end of a train, as shown in the picture? It would make the hunt easier.
I rode #9440 as the first car of a Diamond 7 on March 15, 1999.
I saw it again on October 26, it was eastbound, last car of the train.
wayne
They both have the World Series Wrap?
Nope, that would be 9394 and 9713.
I have not a clue. Maybe they have funny fans like #9328 does.
wayne
Ah, so that was the R-33 single we rode on.
Nope. Car 9574 has AC like all the other R36 cars.
They have both had their lights replaced with the "non-blinking" lights, like the mainline redbirds, R-32s, R-40s, etc.
Ding ding ding ding ding! We have a winner!
You are correct!
They both have those lights that don't blink whenever the car gaps out. 9575 blinks, but not 9574. They both have light arrangements similar to those on the mainline cars, and the new-style light boxes. Although 9574 appears to be a bit dark compared to the cars around it.
Pulled into NYP this am, engineer announced, "Track 15, crew change
ends, PBY extra." What's a PBY extra?
PBY is not one of their Passanger Station points according to their web site. It might be a crew reporting station or point.
The November issue has a lot of bus topics, but the theme is Subway Series. At the Bus Festival they interview the OTHER Mark W., i.e. the one who works at the Transit Museum, he's as nice in person as he appears on camera.
See some shots of the wrapped #4 & #7 trains
For more detail see my BusTalk post.
Mr t__:^)
>>...they interview the OTHER Mark W.
Y-y-y-y-ou mean there's TWO Mark W's???
Awed for Amusement Purposes... :)
Mark W. #1 = Mark Watson, employee of the TA Museum
Mark W. #2 = member of the RPC (Railway Preservation Corp.), i.e. one of Mike Hannah's guys at Coney Island & frequent SubTalker.
Mr t__:^)
>>>Mark W. #1 = Mark Watson, employee of the TA Museum<<<
Education Director of the transit museum
Peace,
ANDEE
Heypaul rumors dispelled.
heypaul on a very recnt visit to Palm Beach, feeling a yearning for the comfort of his motormens cab , stopped by a polling sight. This sight had many expatroits from northern cities . These cities had transit systems and these same expatroits at one time or another used these systems. While at the polling sight , heypaul noticed some of the expatriots suffered from "irregularity, and had to hurry their rights under the US constitution.
So in summery, heypaul wittnessed voter irregulatity in seniors, former transit riders, at Palm Beach Fla. while seeking protection fron an anxiety attach.
avid
avid has come close to understanding my situation...
while it is true there is a great problem of irregularity amongst voters in palm beach county, that is no secret as it is widely known by the cashiers in all the chain store pharmacies...
avid was correct when he stated that i have been placed in the federal witness protection program... i will be testifying soon before a congressional committee on the grave threat presented to the security of this nation by railfans of all persuasions... to guarantee my safety after my testimony, avid has graciously given my plastic surgeon a photo that he took of himself when he was recently in a penny arcade in coney island... taking on avid's features will be guarantee that i will go undetected for the rest of my life, as nothing is known of this man of mystery...
to insure my security federal agents have turned avid over to our arch enemy in the transit system... avid will be given the choice of working in a subway newstand or laboring in a sweat shop sewing rat skins into fur coats which will keep the ruling classes warm this winter...
Bravo!
avid
Heypaul rumors dispelled.
heypaul on a very recnt visit to Palm Beach, feeling a yearning for the comfort of his motormens cab , stopped by a polling sight.To use the Polling booth as a surgate motormans cab. This sight had many expatroits from northern cities . These cities had transit systems and these same expatroits at one time or another used these systems. While at the polling sight , heypaul noticed some of the expatriots suffered from "irregularity, and had to hurry their rights under the US constitution.
So in summery, heypaul wittnessed voter irregulatity in seniors, former transit riders, at Palm Beach Fla. while seeking protection fron an anxiety attach.
avid
Rueters is carrying a story linking british rail deaths to a book and TV show entitled "The Railway Children"
-Hank
Since "The Railway Children" is on PBS Masterpiece Theatre this Sunday, we will have to see if there is a great increase in death and maiming of children next week.
Tom
Hello,
Are the SEPTA routes 100,101,102 considered City Division all the way out to their terminals, or are they multiple-zone rides? It's not clear from the SEPTA web site if these routes have multiple fare zones. Essentially I need to know if the SEPTA day pass is valid to the terminals of these lines and back or is extra fare required.
Thanks,
Dave
I know that on Route 100 multiple zones are in effect, but if you ride on a weekend, all passes are good for anywhere on the SEPTA system.
Michalovic
They all have multiple fare zones. To ride the whole line you will need a base fare (token) and 3 zones on the Rt. 100 (40 cents each) or 2 or 3 zones on the Rt. 101/102
When I tried it on the 100 the driver reluctantly let me use the daypass
to cover th first 1.60 of the fare, and I paid only 0.80.
I find it odd that the daypass is a transfer with a sticker on it which says Day Pass
the 100, 101, and 102 are not City Division Routes. They are entirely suburban.
That's interesting because the Septa web pages for those routes, including the timetables, maps, and fares pages, don't mention zones on those routes or which stations are in which zones, whereas the regional rail timetables show the zones. I suppose the paper timetables explain it all?
Yes, in recent years the paper timetables have gotten very good at explaining all the zones and fares etc. The Rt. 100->102 are part of the Red Arrow division.
I'm not 100% sure, but I think the Sharon Hill (Rte. 102) is only one zone (the base fare) and the Media line (Rte.101) is (2) zones
for the whole trip to Media. So it costs and extra .40
for the ride to Media.
Chuck Greene
No, when I went to Clifton-Aden in 1994 I had to pay a base and 1 extra zone.
All SEPTA Divisions (City, Suburban (which includes the former Red Arrow and Frontier) and Regional Rail) have zone fares. For City routes, generally these kick in when the routes leave the city limits. There are some exceptions (notably those going into the suburbs for short stretches such as 11 into Darby, 13 to Yeadon/Darby, 21 to 69th St, 42 to Wycombe). To ride into each zone there is a 40-cent additional charge per zone.
On Suburban Division lines there are often multiple zones. 100 goes through 3 fare zones on the 69th St-Norristown trip. 101 has a second zone which starts at Woodland Ave Springfield. 102 is all within 1 zone. These are explained on the timetables.
Regional Rail zone structure is very clearly explained on the timetables.
The Day Pass is good on all City Division routes and the first zone of Suburban Division routes. It cannot be used on Regional Rail except for a one-way trip to the Airport.
I believe SEPTA day passes can be used for a one way trip on any Regional Rail line, not just the Airport Line.
You are correct. I double-checked and found the error of my thoughts. The Day Pass is good on all City Transit routes and is also good for one trip one Regional Rail (one-way). It doesn't cover zone fare on the City Transit routes which leave the city and charge the 40-cents additional for the zone. It is NOT good on any Suburban Transit route.
They have fare zones, the day pass is so screwed I won't even take a guess as to if you can use it.
SEPTA's website says the daypass can be used for the first zone on 100, 101 and 102.
IIRC, on the Aug 5 trip that Jersey Mike recently mentioned on another thread, we were unaware of that and we purchased tokens for out 69th Street-Bryn Mawr round trip.
I forgot about that, also. We could have used our day passes since we only went to Bryn Mawr. That was sure fun that day! Remember the 36
trolley that passed us by at 88th st!
Chuck Greene
Hi Chuck.
Dave Pirmann subsequently posted that SEPTA told him that the P&W does not honor day passes.
Bob
Bryn Mawr is not a zone away from the city. If you look at an R1 schedule which has a map of the zones in the system, Bryn Mawr is in the second zone, not the first one. It's just a zone away from 69th Street Terminal, which is in Upper Darby by the way, not Philadelphia.
Sorry about that, Bryn Mawr is in the 3rd zone.
We went to Bryn Mawr on the P&W, not on the Paoli Local. We paid one token to exit, Bryn Mawr being one zone from 69th Street.
Geographically, 69th Street is in Upper Darby, separated from Philadelphia by Millbourne. So what? 69th Street is the city division terminal.
We paid another token to get on at Bryn Mawr and got off at 69th Street without paying an additional fare. One zone.
I know and understand all of this. I take the P&W very often, and I take it to Bryn Mawr all of the time, and i know the fare system very well (almost too well). Bryn Mawr is not refered to as the first fare zone towards the city, it's refered to as the third one, that's why the transpass is not accepted. It's entirely suburban, and does not operate within the first zone of the city. The zone system is based on the regional rail, and Bryn Mawr is shown as being in the 3rd zone. Also, from 69th Street to Bryn Mawr is a one zone ride, but that's just the ride, not the actually zone it is in. As for 69th Street being a City Division Terminal, I don't think it is. For instance, there are only 4 city division routes that serve that terminal (MFL, 21, 30, and 65) The rest are suburban routes. However, it is refered to as a transfer center between the city division and suburban routes. So, basically, I don't really think it is the city division terminal. In fact, I'm pretty sure of it. Also, on a different note, what were you doing in Bryn Mawr? You could've said hello to me since you were in town, lol.
what were you doing in Bryn Mawr?
Waiting for the next car to 69th Street on the occaision of the August 5 SubTalk Septa trip. We would have welcomed another participant.
Oh, cool. Too bad you didn't get to go all the way to Norristown. It's much more interesting than the stretch before Radnor, also crossing the schulykill river and much more.
Right. We were running into time constraints for two of the members of the group and one member was bereft of funds, so we rode to Bryn Mawr and back just to ride the P&W. We all agreed that as insignificant as Philly's system is compared with NYC, there were a lot of things that we missed.
Click here for the trip report.
Here's the answer I just got from SEPTA, I figured I'd post it to since there was some contradictory information floating around...
Reply: The Rt.#100, Rt.#101, and Rt.#102 lines are Suburban Transit routes. DayPasses ARE NOT ACCEPTED on these routes. The Rt.#100 is compiled of three zones - from 69th Street Terminal to Bryn Mawr Station is the first, from Bryn Mawr to Gulph Mills is the second, and from Gulph Mills is the third. The Rt.#101 is a Two zone route. The first suburban zone is from 69th Street Terminal to Springfield Mall and the second zone runs from the Springfield Mall to the end of the line in Media. The Rt.#102 is a one zone ride all the way from 69th Street Terminal to Sharon Hill.
Thank You,
SEPTA Travel Information Center
I was just on MS Train Sim website, it looks great and can't wait to get it, but I wrote them a letter that they should consider adding a Subway line as an add-on or in the next version, it enough of us write them maybe they will add it. I sugusted the Historic A train the land mark 7 or the Chicago El.
Whats the URL?
http://www.microsoft.com/games/trainsim
This looks great!
While searching google for MS Train sim, I came across Pork's flight sim site:
aeroswine
Did you notice the ONE glaring error? Look in the screenshots section. The ACELA Express trainset has a standard Amtrak/PRR colourized position light cab signal display. The ACELA Express units will have 2 extra cab signal indications and a completely different display*. However as a Railfan I prefer this cab signal display.
*Information courtisy Amtrak Engineer.
Still waiting for Midtown Madness... New York City Edition.
MS took a NYC term to market this game to Chicago (The Loop), SF (Upper Market) and London. But Midtown will always be New York.
Try "Driver;" it has New York, Miami, San Francisco, Los Angeles, and Newcastle. Nowhere near accurate, of course!
I did notice on someone's transit page a picture of NYCT's NovaBus Low-Floor demonstrator "digitized" for Midtown Madness; did someone do this for kicks, or could a New York Midtown Madness actually be in the works?
Is there a URL for "Driver"?
running on...
http://driver.gtgames.com. There's a sequel coming out that includes Chicago, which, of course, means els! I assume you won't be able to drive those, though ;).
Some guy did the bus for M.M. He made an update for it which includes some more city skins, Miami Transit, MARTA, and one that looks like it's been fire bomed.
HOLD UP! you mean there's a midtown madness for SF and London?
London sounds sweet, and chicago was cool, BUT...
RUSH will always be the best when it comes to san fran
Midtown Madness is Chicago. Midtown Madness 2 is London and San Francisco.
running on...
Hi all,
I have a website called "Subway Simulator Central" which will have all LRT/Subway/Commuter addons for MS Train Simulator designed by anyone, so if you design one, you can post it there or we can link it to your site.
Not much at this site (mostly links) till after the MS Sim is released sometimes next spring.
http://hometown.aol.com/subwaysimcentral
Cheers,
Mike the Mailman in Denver, ColorFUL Colorado
Site looks good. It would be nice if Microsoft had a beta version of the program to download. Just to see how the program work and create add on's.
Paul
I was waiting for the 9:26am train to Penn yesterday at Mineola, which for some reason was held at the Nassau tower, then finally came into the station at 9:31am. No OB train was crossing so who knows why?
Anyway was this train fast! I got on, head car. The engineer really made this train fly, 82mph between Mineola-Merrillion and Floral Park!!
That has gotta be one of the fastest damn stretches on the LIRR.
The train makes no stops until Jamaica (no Hillside) and really gets up to speed after the switches around Merrillion, and keeps it up until the switches after Floral Park.
The east river tunnel wasn't too fast though, clocked about 52mph. Man there are some serious water leaks at the Manhattan side of the tube.
It seems we always use the first tube Manhattan bound, which is right near the #7 ramp. There is another tube after that for Penn, but is that used mostly by Amtrak? I still find the LIC/Penn tunnel portal layout confusing, could somebody explain it to me?
Also later I took a "C" train through Cranberry St. and wondered what all those lights and pumps are for in the middle of that tube.
Also it appears there is an emergency exit in the 53rd street tubes, under Roosevelt Island. Where does it lead?
Yes the exit does lead up to Roosevelt Island. I don't know the depth at that point , but my knees hurt just thinking about it.
avid
The East River tubes contain an Underground Flying Junction. Its best illustraited on this diagram of F interlocking http://www.neuro.ccf.org/~bejm/Rail/Prr/Maps/Itlk/f.gif. In short comming out of Penn Station from north to south the tunnels are W/B LIAR, E/B LIAR, W/B Amtrak, E/B Amtrak. On the LI City side the tunnels are W/B LIAR, W/B Amtrak, E/B LIAR, E/B Amtrak. Just west of LI City the E/B LIAR and W/B Amtraks cross eachother. This is why the tunnel portles are staggered. Both E/B tubes emerge farther east that the 2 W/B tubes, which descend adjacent to the Hunters Point (i think) station.
A couple of items to add to that. The two tunnels that Jersey Mike calls LIRR are for tracks 17-21 -- all LIRR tracks. The two that he labels Amtrak access tracks 17 and lower (I'm not sure how low -- some of the low numbered tracks stub end at Penn). LIRR actually uses all 4 tunnels -- particularly during rush hour. Off Peak, most LIRR trains use the tunnels labelled "LIRR". Amtrak (and sometimes NJT) can be found on tracks 13 and 14 off peak -- and on rare occasions can be found on 15 and 16.
The e/b tubes appear to go directly underneath the Hunter's Point Avenue station, emerging just east of the station.
The LIAR tubes can access tracks 21-14 and Amtrak tubes can access 17-5. I'm reading this off my Pig station diagram.
That sound about right. 13/14, BTW, are on the same platform, 17 is all by itself. I don't think AmTrak ever use 17 and rairly uses 15/16, but non rush hours you'll find them frequently on 13/14.
AmTrak likes to park trains in the station while LIRR moves them to the yard as soon as they unload. They tend to be on the platform no more then 10 minutes before scheduled departure. The exception would be a train with the doors closed. If you know where to walk on the LIRR level you can get to most of the lower numbered platforms (you can't do that from the AmTrak level).
Mr t__:^)
For some reason, once I was on a PW branch train, off peak, and we used the second W/B tunnel portal that Amtrak uses. I saw the usual location of the portal and I wondered, where is this train going, since I never use the second tunnel.
I wonder exactly what LIRR trains use the second W/B portal, so I can catch them so I can take a closer look next time.
Many use the second w/b portal during the AM rush. Almost all of them use the express tracks between Jamaica and Woodside. Since you're an Oyster Bay line guy, my suggestion for catching a train through that tunnel is to go to Jamaica during rush hour and take an express to Penn that stops on track 5. Chances are that those trains will run on what is normally considered the eastbound express track and into the second tube.
If you're looking for a guaranteed ride through that portal, the 7:03, 7:37 and 8:01 from Rockville Centre all use it almost every day.
Chuck
Or catch a "Freeport" PM rush hour train to see it the other way, e.g. get half way off the platform and have to wait while a AmTrak crosses in front of you. (IIRC there are three tracks to merge to two at that point).
Mr t__:^)
For some reason, once I was on a PW branch train, off peak, and we used the second W/B tunnel portal that Amtrak uses. I saw the usual location of the portal and I wondered, where is this train going, since I never use the second tunnel.
I wonder exactly what LIRR trains use the second W/B portal, so I can catch them so I can take a closer look next time.
Also you can really hear the trains when they blow their horns entering the tunnel, especially at the #7 Hunter's Point station.
Train Dispatcher game has a lay out of this for you to play. I think the web site is www.signalcc.com.
I've seen Slamtrak through trains on 15-17 right in the middle of LIRR.
I was in Roosevelt Field the other day and I look this flier, it looked like a huge Metrocard of sorts that said Tunnel, no ID.
A huge ad with a club featuring Friday November 10th event. Inside there was a picture of an A train of what looked like R10's, front sign saying Fulton-Euclid ave. I can't figure out what station it's in, but the same pic might be on the nycsubway.org.
The station looks deep bored.
The pic in the Tunnel flyer is the same pic in the nycsubway.org site, it's the first picture in the IND 8th ave section, which also can be found at http://www.nycsubway.org/slides/r4/r4-800.jpg
The train is R4's, and appear to be the backside of an A train, with the express light illuminated. The station is 190th street.
The webside of the flyer designers is at www.skylabnewyork.com.
The question I have is did they get permission from this web site to use that picture, or did they have to?
I knew when I picked up the flyer at Roosevelt Field, that picture inside looked familiar!
No, I don't think they did... I get a lot of requests and as long as they're non commercial I typically grant them but I never follow up and who knows what the "finished product" looks like. I don't recognize the name of that studio but they might have asked. I always ask to be sent copies of the finished report or whatnot but I never get them. I had a lady from Microsoft ask for a train photo for a report they were putting together and in thanks she said she'd send me some MS game or other but I never received it. The fact remains is that anyone with money can essentially do what they want because I couldn't afford to pursue legal matters against infringement cases...
The fact remains is that anyone with money can essentially do what they want because I couldn't afford to pursue legal matters against infringement cases...
Shhhh....Don't tell them that.
The QC Quad had a front page picture a few weeks ago with some subway scenes with the headline "New York Sees its First Subway Series Since 1956!" I noticed one of the pictures looked like that of an R15, #5957, on the 1 line. The "5957" appeared in the IND-style car numbers, so I checked it out here, and lo and behold, there's a picture on this site of 5957 on the 1 line. It just so happens to be the exact same picture featured on the front page of the QC Quad. I forget the date, though. The picture of 5957 I'm talking about is located at:
http://www.nycsubway.org/slides/r15/r15-5957.jpg.
See this item and lament NYC's latest blown opportunity. It sure sounds like Mississippi got an excellent deal for less than $300 million. NYC has, of course, thrown away far greater amounts in response to utterly false corporate relocation threats.
Note the comment concerning the large labor pool in Mississippi. I can say with 100% assurance that NYC has a far larger pool of qualified people eager for work.
"Note the comment concerning the large labor pool in Mississippi. I can say with 100% assurance that NYC has a far larger pool of qualified people eager for work."
But you can't say that New York has a larger pool of qualified people eager for work without UAW representation. Nissan wouldn't have built that plant in the New York metro area even if you gave them three times the tax breaks that Mississippi offered.
"Note the comment concerning the large labor pool in Mississippi. I ("I can say with 100% assurance that NYC has a far larger pool of qualified people eager for work." )
There is simply nowhere in New York City that you could build and supply the parts for a plant of that size. The trucking system just can't support it, rail is too slow, and there is no rail connection anyway. New York City NEVER had industry on that scale...it was all light industry, apparel, printing, assembly.
(But you can't say that New York has a larger pool of qualified people eager for work without UAW representation. Nissan wouldn't have built that plant in the New York metro area even if you gave them three times the tax breaks that Mississippi offered.)
That's hitting the nail on the head. There are certainly acres of brownfields with MASSIVE underused infrastructure available in Buffalo, Rochester and Syracuse. Depopulation is leading to labor shortages, but the education system is excellent and Nissan could outbid other employers. BUT another iten held that New York has surpassed Hawaii to become #1 in unionization. Aside from low wage stuff that has moved to the Third World, and capital intensive stuff where all the jobs are automated out of existence, union avoidance is the NUMBER ONE predictor of manufacturing plant location in the United States.
When the unions managed to push up wages in New York without organizing the south, our industrial base was doomed.
There is simply nowhere in New York City that you could build and supply the parts for a plant of that size. The trucking system just can't support it, rail is too slow, and there is no rail connection
anyway. New York City NEVER had industry on that scale...it was all light industry, apparel, printing, assembly.
Giving up hope is the type of defeatist attitude that's been NYC's curse for many years. There are places where enough land could be assembled. Two that come to mind are the Brooklyn Navy Yard and "Industry City" on the Brooklyn waterfront. Both areas are occupied by tired old factory buildings which are either vacant or house marginal industries. Raze the buildings, pay the few remaining users to relocate elsewhere, do whatever environmental cleanup is needed (federal $$$ should be available for that), and voila! You have enough land for an auto assembly plant. No rail connection? Well, that could be solved by running more carfloat service to the Greenville Yard in Jersey City; if NYC wants the plant urgently enough, it could agree to subsidize the extra cost attributable to the carfloats. Lack of highway capacity might be more of a problem, but keep in mind that most of the plant's workers will be using transit. It might not prove impossible to handle the extra truck traffic.
Don't get me wrong, it wouldn't be easy for the city to attract the Nissan plant (or another auto plant). It would be a truly audacious idea. But I'd say it high time for NYC to stop being the world capital of "can't do's" and a perpetual door mat. Instead, it's time for the city to do something bold.
But you can't say that New York has a larger pool of qualified people eager for work without UAW representation. Nissan wouldn't have built that plant in the New York metro area even if you gave them three times the tax breaks that Mississippi offered.
That's hitting the nail on the head. There are certainly acres of brownfields with MASSIVE underused infrastructure available in Buffalo, Rochester and Syracuse. Depopulation is leading to labor shortages, but the education system is excellent and Nissan could outbid other employers. BUT another iten held that New York has surpassed Hawaii to become #1 in unionization. Aside from low wage stuff that has moved to the Third World, and capital intensive stuff where all the jobs are automated out of existence, union avoidance is the NUMBER ONE predictor of manufacturing plant location in the United States.
But isn't New York's high unionization rate largely attributable to union membership among public sector employees (including government-subsidized health care and social services)? If so, unionization rates in the private sector, especially manufacturing, might not be too far out of line. Remember that NYC in particular has a large immigrant population that's by and large arrived after the decline of traditional manufacturing and hence knows little or nothing of unions.
(But isn't New York's high unionization rate largely attributable to union membership among public sector employees (including government-subsidized health care and social services)?
Yes and no. All the upstate manufacturing is unionized.
(Two that come to mind are the Brooklyn Navy Yard and "Industry City" on the Brooklyn waterfront. Both areas are occupied by tired old factory buildings which are either vacant or house marginal industries.)
Well over 20,000 people work in those areas. They are marginal only in comparison to what they used to be, when industry was willing to locate on the 10th floor. The Nissan Plant would have one floor, would employ no more people than are on the ground floors now, and would have to bring in skilled labor from outside, replacing the unskilled labor that is already there. Industrial policy is a bad idea.
Two that come to mind are the Brooklyn Navy Yard and "Industry City" on the Brooklyn waterfront. Both areas are occupied by tired old factory buildings which are either vacant or house marginal industries.
Well over 20,000 people work in those areas. They are marginal only in comparison to what they used to be, when industry was willing to locate on the 10th floor. The Nissan Plant would have one floor, would employ no more people than are on the ground floors now, and would have to bring in skilled labor from outside, replacing the unskilled labor that is already there. Industrial policy is a bad idea.
I agree that in general, it's a bad idea for a city or other governmental unit to try to set industrial policy. But "in general" does not mean "always." Auto plants bring many benefits beyond the direct jobs they create. They require a whole network of suppliers, which of course themselves create jobs and generate tax revenues, and what with today's "just in time" inventory systems many of these suppliers have to be located in close proximity to the assembly plants. What this means is that siting the Nissan plant at one of the Brooklyn locations might well lead to a net gain in industrial jobs for the city even if a somewhat larger number of existing jobs are displaced. In any event, the firms displaced from the Navy Yard or Industry City could be assisted in finding new locations elsewhere in the city.
You also have to consider the multiplier effect. Auto plant jobs pay very well indeed, even when the workers aren't in the UAW. That means more spending in city businesses and more tax revenues. I would imagine that most of the existing Navy Yard or Industry City jobs pay modest salaries and therefore don't lead to as significant a multiplier effect.
Finally, there's the prestige factor. Don't laugh, being the site of an auto plant is a terrific way to put a place on the map. Consider such Sun Belt locales as Spring Hill, Tennessee; Vance, Alabama; Princeton, Indiana*; and Georgetown, Kentucky. Instead of being relegated to varying degrees of obscurity, they're famous nationwide as the homes of assembly plants for Saturn, Mercedes, Toyota trucks and Toyota cars, respectively. Okay, Brooklyn's not obscure, but most people in the country probably regard it as a rundown place whose glory days ended four decades ago. Having a Nissan plant would restore Brooklyn's reputation mightily.
One last thing, as far as job skills are concerned, auto assembly plants by and large do not require high skill levels - that's one of the purposes behind the assembly-line method. NYC surely has plenty of people eager and able to work at a Nissan plant.
* = before anyone cares to nitpick in a geographical sense, Princeton is in the southern end of Indiana, not far from Kentucky, and in any event Indiana is politically, culturally and economically more a part of the Sunbelt than of the Midwest.
* = before anyone cares to nitpick in a geographical sense, Princeton is in the southern end of Indiana, not far from Kentucky, and in any event Indiana is politically, culturally and economically more a part of the Sunbelt than of the Midwest.
Saying that Kentucky is in the Sunbelt is itself stretching it.
And I've heard of only one of those places: Spring Hill, TN and even then only because it was the subject of many a Saturn commercial. I doubt the average person cares about where the plants are.
* = before anyone cares to nitpick in a geographical sense, Princeton is in the southern end of Indiana, not far from Kentucky, and in any event Indiana is politically, culturally and economically more a part of the Sunbelt than of the Midwest.
Saying that Kentucky is in the Sunbelt is itself stretching it.
And I've heard of only one of those places: Spring Hill, TN and even then only because it was the subject of many a Saturn commercial. I doubt the average person cares about where the plants are.
Well, I would consider Kentucky a Sunbelt state, though admittedly it's a more dubious case than, say, Arizona. It's politically and culturally conservative, has low unionization rates (I'm not sure if it's a right-to-work state, however), and has a prosperous and growing economy - all hallmarks of a Sunbelt state.
You probably don't follow the business news closely, or else you'd know about the Sunbelt auto plants. Believe me, the state and communities milk the news for all it's worth. IIRC, all of the Sunbelt plants have large "Visitor's Centers" that are major tourist attractions.
Prosperous? Kentucky, and unquestionable Sunbelt states like Mississippi and Alabama, are not exactly prosperous. They are, in a word, poor.
Which is another reason I am actually not so sad to see the plant go to Mississippi. I may not like their senators, but those folks down there need all the help they can get. Sure, there are folks in Brooklyn that need jobs too, but without question there are opportunities in the NYC metro area.
The enormous subsidies actually make some sense in a place like Mississippi. I don't think they make sense at all in Brooklyn.
Prosperous? Kentucky, and unquestionable Sunbelt states like Mississippi and Alabama, are not exactly prosperous. They are, in a word, poor.
Which is another reason I am actually not so sad to see the plant go to Mississippi. I may not like their senators, but those folks down there need all the help they can get. Sure, there are folks in Brooklyn that need jobs too, but without question there are opportunities in the NYC metro area.
Kentucky and certain other Sunbelt states may have relatively low average incomes, but they're rapidly becoming more prosperous. New jobs are being created at a pace that would be unimaginable to New Yorkers, leading to an increase in incomes and overall prosperity. Some day these states will leap ahead of New York in terms of prosperity. It may not happen tomorrow, but happen it will.
And as for "opportunities in the NYC metro area," well, it's hard to see where they would exist what with the city's high unemployment rates (which would be far higher, surely in double digits, if it weren't for very low work-force participation rates).
(Kentucky and certain other Sunbelt states may have relatively low average incomes, but they're rapidly becoming more prosperous.)
Let's be clear about this. Kentucky, Tennessee, Alabama, North Carolina, South Carolina, Louisiana, and Oklahoma all had LOWER poverty rates in 1999 than New York State. That's right, check the census bureau website if you don't believe me. Mississippi was still SLIGHTLY higher. New York State's median household income was below the national average, and below, for example, Missouri.
New York is a poor state with a lot of rich people in it -- in Manhattan, a few other parts of New York City, the north shore of Long Island, the five towns, and most of Westchester, Rockland, and Putnam. The rich people are so rich, and so numerous, that New York's per capita income is #4 in the nation. But it doesn't reflect how most people in New York actually live.
All federal funding formulas, however, are based on per capita income, not median household income, and not poverty. In fact, the differences in per capita income are SQUARED. So the federal government treats New York as a state that is almost as rich as New Jersey, instead of almost as poor as Mississippi. Plus, the rest of the country hates us and rips us off any way it can.
Think about that while paying high taxes for low quality services.
When the unions managed to push up wages in New York without organizing the south, our industrial base was doomed.
It seems to me that you are in agreement with Anon_e_mouse that the Confederacy should have won.
I cannot say that I disagree. To this day the North and South are in different worlds.
Okay so perhaps it's not a rail transit question, but has anyone seen the Norfolk Southern ad on TV? I saw it last night. It shows computer-generated futuristic looking cities with Norfolk Southern trains speeding through them (lead by Dash 9s, it looks like?) while the announcer's voice says "carrying the materials to run america, from the coal for its factories to the silicon for its computers..."
All in all, I thought it was a slick, well-done ad, BUT....
why do they need to advertise? NS is pretty regional....any thots on this?
-Abe
Is this the same as their last ad that ran about a year or 2 ago? That one was there you had a cab view of a locomotive going to equilivent of 1000 mph over various lines. They shot it by pointing a camera out the back of a Theatre car and then playing it in reverse.
no it wasn't. The whole thing was CGI and it was computerized versions of trains pulled by dash-9s speeding by through futuristic cities that were like half-city, half computer chip...it was kewl
why do they need to advertise? NS is pretty regional....any thots on this?
NS covers the entire eastern third of the country. Advertising out West would encourage shippers who ship by UP or BNSF to connect with NS rather than CSX.
I saw this ad too, and thought, "Good for them." It's about time Railroads took steps to promote themselves better and made attempts at positive PR. The railroads do need image improvement, especially after the recent mergers (UP & SP, Conrail & NS/CSX) which have resulted in poor service and angry shippers. Investors and customers tend to respond positively to a business which acts like a business, and advertising is integral to any successful business enterprise. I'm sure we weren't the only ones to be surprised by seeing a railroad commercial, but I, for one, hope it helps their business grow.
NS also ran a television ad about a year and a half ago which showed its horse symbol morphing into and out of various products that NS carries. I can recall lumber, autos, coal and possibly one or two others. It may sound weird, but it looked pretty good.
I had another transit dream last night and I am pretty sure I had the same dream sometime before. The constant part of these dreams was that the Market-Frankford Line linked with the R5 Paoli line and ran along the Main Line for a stretch, sorta like the H&M did. In last nights dream I was at a station right near the MFL portal where it diverges from the R5 and heads somewhere underground. It was a typical main line station. Now in both dreams I saw an Amtrak train head down into the Tunnel (AEM-7 haules), but this time I saw that there were some turnouts down there and it was part of a flying junction. The MFL trains were fairly frequent and the line has 2 sets of signals (transit and NORAC) and a lunar white aspect to signify something. Now in this dream I was only at the station and I might have ridden it, but in the last dream I do believe I rode an MFL line train to some destination in the suburbs. BTW the time I was at the station was early afternon, but then I came back around 5pm because I had to use the station bathroom (OMG it was gross! I decided to go elsewere. Even dream me has standards.) and in the dark all the signals were spectular.
Whoa.... Transit Dream?!?
I, for one, have never, ev-v-v-v-v-ver,
had a dream involving rapid transit be it
subways or buses... yet I stick like glue
to any redbird in sight during daylight hours!
...just ask "W"... Mark W
:)
Intentionally Waiting for Redbirds at 96th Street.
I constantly have trainsit Dreams, and I usually post them here. The only bad part is that I can't take pictures or use the information I learn.
I'm good for about one subway dream per month. Some are real doozies, like the one in which #7 trains were running at ground level past Shea Stadium and the cars had pantographa.
Must've been at the Shore LIne trolley museum
Peace,
ANDEE
No, it was definitely Shea Stadium. And the cars on the 7 weren't R-36s, either; they were interurban coaches with diesel horns. One passing train let out a nice B flat chord once, twice, and finally a long sustained blast which gradually slid down a half-step as the train moved further and further away. That's about when I woke up.
Perhaps I was combining the LIRR with the 7 in my dream. After all, we did take the LIRR to the World's Fair in 1965 from what was left of Penn Station. However, in my dream, those trains on the 7 ran down the middle of Roosevelt Ave., interurban style.
Whoa.... Transit Dream?!?
I, for one, have never, ev-v-v-v-v-ver,
had a dream involving rapid transit be it
subways or buses... yet I stick like glue
to any redbird in sight during daylight hours!
...just ask "W"... Mark W
:)
Intentionally Waiting for Redbirds at 96th Street.
My transit dreams always involve the Almond Joys. One dream I had, the A.J.'s were going over The Ben Franklin Bridge. Another was the A.J.'s were going over The Walt Whitman. Another was the A.J.'s running on the Atlantic City Boardwalk. Each dream, the A.J.'s had a connection with New Jersey. One dream made me $500.00. I've dreamed I was on car 711 (in the dream, 711 is a single unit, not part of a married pair as in real life). When I woke up, I played 711, that night, 711 came out straight. Since they've been gone, I haven't hit the Daily since.
If the MFL did go to the Main Line, that would be great for me, since I wouldn't have to transfer at 69th Street anymore, lol.
Has anyone here purchased the recently released Twelve Historical New York City Street and Transit Maps Volume II From 1847-1939?
Do you have any comments on the maps included in the set?
In comparing the maps from Volume 1 to Volume 2, it would seem that the first volume maps would be of much more interest to the transit fan.
According to the Daily News, the Democratic Assemblyman who leads the transportation committee announced that the Democrats are committed to the Second Avenue Subway and will fund it some other way (he's from Rochester, and by the way, the Thruway needs another lane each way between Syracuse and Buffalo). Bruno was non-committal on coming up with tax dollars. He would have been equally non-committal about coming up with tax dollars to build it after the "studies" were over. They either are going to invest in the infrastructure of they aren't.
Boy, putting another pair of lanes on the Thruway will cost a HELL of a lot of $$$MONEY$$$ after Bu$h sto-er,ah got elected I don't see much being spent in the Northeast for the next 4 years. Ditto for the 2nd. Ave. subway.
(Boy, putting another pair of lanes on the Thruway will cost a HELL of a lot of $$$MONEY$$$)
Only in New York. The land is there. It's not like the Cross Bronx expressway. You dig, lay the sub-road, and pave. OK, so you have to expand the over/underpasses, but there aren't a lot of those per mile of road in Upstate NY.
They put another pair of lanes on the Henry Clay Blvd thruway overpass in Syracuse; IT TOOK 2 CONSTRUCTION SEASONS.
Running new lanes in-between the cities wouldn't be that hard, since the Thruway already owns the land. The killer would be the I-390 and I-490 interchanges south of Rochester and the I-690 hookup just west of Syracuse, which took for-ever just to get set up so that the damn traffic lights at the toll booth and State Fair Blvd. were eliminate.
As far as federal funds are concerned, upstate would be more likely to get some in 2002 because there are a lot of Republican congressman, plus Pataki, up for re-election. On the other hand, should Gore become president, it's also possible he and Hillary will develop the same loving relationship Lyndon Johnson and Robert Kennedy had towards each other if Gore sees her as a potential rival, and that could also be a negative on directing funds into the state.
With a Republican-controlled Congress (yeah, it may be 50-50, but most likely Cheney will be up there breaking any tie votes) and a Republican in the White House, and both Senators from New York being Democrats, New York State might get some scraps thanks to Governor Pataki and members of the House from upstate, but New York City will probably be shut-out at every turn. Remember, love her or hate her, Hillary is the junior Senator from NY, and will have to take what she can get as far as committee memberships. Chuck Schumer (sp?) is only in the middle of his first term, and he is in the minority party and still fairly low on the seniority totem pole. At least we can expect DART to see a modest increase in Federal funding, but kiss the 2nd Ave. Subway goodbye for at least 4 more years.
Isn't a new election held at the next time of the election if a senator resigns?
This means that in the event Lieberman becomes VP, the Rowland appointee would only serve for the first session of this Congress.
Sorry Pork, he would serve until the Midterm elections in 2002.
Worse than that, if Lieberman was elected, his replacement would be appointed by the Republican governor. But it looks like that won't happen.
I hope your right. As a Republican I am furious that the damn demos want to keep counting until the count goes their way. Nixon could have done the same thing in 1960 when there was evidence of some real fraud in Texas and Illinois, but he was a statesman and decided it would hurt the country. Gore is nothing more than a cheap and rotten politico who's willing to cause a constitutional crisis to further his end. Mark my words. If Gore steals this election, the people will remember and his four years in office will be miserable.
19,000 votes were THROWN OUT in one FL county alone, Go through with a REVOTE in ALL controversial jurisdictions, not just in Fla. but in WI,OR,NM and other areas the REPUBLICANS have doubts about. Fair is Fair (may the best man win.)
You are truly a man of reason.
You prove that people can seek justice without being clouded by blind partisanship.
There have already been two tallies. The D's are hoping to recount until it comes out their way, and if it doesn't go to court. What a bunch of low-rate second raters.
And you Republicans just want an illegal vote to stand because it works your way.
If Gore won, and some predominantly Republican county in the Panhandle had the same ballot and many ended up voting for Nader, then you would be complaining like you never have.
Wouldn't happen Pork because Republican voters are smarter than that. That's why we are Republicans. By the way, did you read the article carried in the most papers today that second graders used the butterfly ballot in picking out their favorite Disney characters. I figure if 8 year olds can read a ballot then those dum Democrats should be able to as well. But then again when your symbol is the jackass I suppose it speaks volumes about your intelligence and character. BTW, did you know that Gore flunked out of theological school and dropped out of law school because he wasn't making it? Now you know.
Wouldn't happen Pork because Republican voters are smarter than that. That's why we are Republicans
Total bull, and prejudiced I might add.
By the way, did you read the article carried in the most papers today that second graders used the butterfly ballot in picking out their favorite Disney characters. I figure if 8 year olds can read a ballot then those dum Democrats should be able to as well.
I have not seen an image of this cartoon ballot, so I cannot judge. Most likely it was a folded piece of paper, so therefore the pages couldn't slide and become misaligned. And my contention with the ballot is not that it was confusing, but that it was ILLEGAL. Florida law clearly states that all markings for candidates MUST be made on the right. All votes for Buchanan, Nader and others on the right side are therefore illegal and a revote must be taken because just discounting them would be taking away someone's vote.
But then again when your symbol is the jackass I suppose it speaks volumes about your intelligence and character.
The symbol was drawn by a Republican cartoonist in an attempt to provide contrast for the older elephant symbol.
BTW, did you know that Gore flunked out of theological school and dropped out of law school because he wasn't making it? Now you know.
I don't care if somebody dropped out of school. There are so many people who have never even finished high school that are successful and make a mark on society. I am not one of those people who believes that education is done exclusively in an institution and that a piece of paper (diploma) is the only symbol of someone's qualifications.
Maybe not Pork, but your party followers have had a field day deriding Bush's intelligence. And yet I don;t recall Bush ever flunking out of school. He got his graduate degree in business from Yale, not a bad place to get a degree. So if you Dems are going to do dirt to GWB, maybe you should take a good look at Gore the Bore before you go mouthing off about our guy.
Once again, I DON'T CARE about a person's formal education. Bush mangles the English language, and he also can't seem to have his own people.
Notice how he brings in all of daddy's friends to help him right now? 4 years of Bush (and it WILL be 4 years) will be a repeat of 1989-93, only much WORSE.
Yale...hummmmmm. I wonder if daddy Bush had to buy new football uniforms, a new dormitory or a new international airport.
Not the last one.
Yale still needs an international airport!
>>>And yet I don't recall Bush ever flunking out of school.<<<
"I don't recall." Seems like Republicans are quite fond of this phrase.
How about "No controlling legal authority?" Or have you forgotten that? How about be tucked into bed when a child with a lullaby about the union label when he was 23 at the time, or inventing the Internet, or Love Story being about him, or he discovered Love Canal. You better stop while you can because your man is a pathalogical liar.
"BTW, did you know that Gore flunked out of theological school and dropped out of law school because he wasn't making it? Now you know."
Care to cite a source for this "information?" I didn't think so.
Gore basically dropped out of divinity school, according to the washington post, because he did not want to take Greek (I took Greek in college so I would say Gore made the right choice). From reading articles at
http://washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/politics/campaigns/wh2000/stories/goremain100399.htm
it appears to me that Gore never intended to get a degree in divinity, only to sort out his mind after Vietnam.
As for law school, he quit to run for congress. He learned that the congressman was retiring and jumped right in. If you have some evidence that he was not doing well, let's hear it. But don't slander him if you don't.
There have ben numerous articles in both papers and magazines about Gore's lack of academic prowess or stick=to-it attitude. Maybe if you would do some serious reading you would come across some of this info. It's all out there. The fact is he was not doing well in law school, and who are you to say that he wasn't serious about divinity school. When you're not doing bad and quit it is always easy to make up excuses, and we have seen Gore as a person of questionable character to make these beliefs reality.
Gore certainly has stick-to-it attitude. He has refused to concede an election that may be rightfully his, regarless of what the scared Republicans say.
I've put up a link to a major newspaper. If you bothered to read it, it suggested what you said was wrong. Either cite something to support what you say, or I will assume you are simply passing on scurrilous, false, rumors. Doing that certainly does not promote democracy.
BTW, Gore graduated with honors from Harvard (undergraduate). That does not suggest to me that he would have had academic trouble in Vanderbilt's law school. Also, he was accepted in Vanderbilt's law school, supposedly after he failed out of Vanderbilt's divinity school. Hmm.
Fred, you raised some very good points but you failed to mention that the Florida Democratic Committee had approved the ballot in question several weeks before the election. Perhaps they anticipated the potential problem (that the ballot was too complicated for the average Florida democrat)and kept it quiet, to be used as a "Get out of Jail Free" Card" in case the election didn't go their way.
Check out Rush Limbaugh's web site for some interesting stuff.
And this website is?
www.rushlimbaugh.com
I don't care about people who can't understand ballots, it was a simple concept.
The ballot was illegal, plain and simple. If you Republicans had someplace where the ballot would be contested in your favor, you would do so in a heartbeat.
So the Democrats approved an illegal ballot?
So the Democrats approved an illegal ballot?
Right on, Mike...and so did all the other officials, and the ballot was in the local newspapers before the election, AND NOBODY COMPLAINED. I'll say it one more time....nobody complained! Recount all you want, but only count ballots where only ONE presidential candidate is clearly marked, and discard the others. Some Florida voters didn't vote like they wanted to...but it is too late to go back, period. -Nick
It doesn't matter who approved it, the ballot is illegal, plain and simple. You cannot have a successful democracy if you do not support all of its laws.
A Dimwitocrat comes back with a typical stupid answer. Come on Pork, you're above all that. Where's your class. You know this is all a canard. Your people put out an illegal ballot, pure and simple. That is what you're saying, but then you defend your party in this matter to the hilt. That is bogus bull@@$^%&^^&!!!!!
Your Wrongpublican buddies just FEAR that if the people are truly allowed to speak, they will send you away where you belong.
I expect no less from a party that holds the common man in such contempt.
We hold the common man in contempt? It is only dummies that believe such crap. You ever heard of John Kerrey, Herbert Kohl, John Corzine, etc? They are the richest men in the Senate and they are all Dimos. I suppose they are champions of the people. You must have eaten some adulterated bacon.
I'm happy Corzine was elected. He doesn't have to bow to the special interests for campaign bribes contributions. Ideally, all elections would be publicly financed.
Well since most Democrats want to increase the tax burden on those who can afford it (ie the rich), this makes a rich Democrat all the more nobel. They have done well and they don't mind sharing.
You cannot have a successful democracy if you do not support all of its laws.
Keep reminding yourself of that each time you push the speed limit a little, or overstay a parking meter. :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Those are state and local laws. The "democracy" refers to the federal nation.
There are differences between simple laws about simple matters, and laws that affect the very fabric of our republic.
If one person violates a speed limit, nobody cares (except for the person paying the ticket!). But it something completely different when people's votes are thrown out because the "chad" couldn't completely come through.
I always make sure my chad went through, as do most of us. It is just a safe precaution. Those in Florida should have done the same.
Sometimes the "chad" does not go all the way through (pointed out on a news program last night). Printing is not an exact science, ya know.
That's precisely why it is high time that "chad" balloting was abolished and machine balloting be instituted nationwide so that the country will have a unified system of voting (less of margin for error).
Time to cut out the nonsense.
BMTman
BMT Doug: Yes, we are total agreement on this point. There must be a unified system of ballots in this country. The fact that voting laws are according to state statutes is carried to an extreme by different states using different ballots. With so much mobility today, plus the fact that changing jobs, retirements, etc, mean hundreds of thousands of people moving each year. It would do all of us a world of good to end this crap of different ballots. Maybe this election fiasco, no matter how it ends, will result in two things. 1. Unified ballots, and 2. The grisly end to the Electoral College.
I don't think the second one will happen, and you know, there's no reason for it!
It took 112 to have another electoral college problem. It's not a common occurence. Imagine if there was a small margin, and counties nationwide tried to do a recount?
Congress can however, by statute impose a unified ballot format, and reform the electoral college so that each state allocates electors like Maine and Nebraska (1 for each congressional district, two at large, so that the electoral representation from those states can be split).
Pigs is right about the electrical college, it should stay. The EC system makes the system more resistant to local voting irregularities and recounts are far easier. It would also make campaigning almost impossible because now the canidates need to try and stop everywhere. The electoral college also helps prevent the population of any one region from singlehandedly desciding the election.
Regarding both issues you see to be under the impression that we live in some sort of single nation here. What really exists is a group of indivudual states that have agreed to live under certain rules. The only entities that have a right to choose a national leader are the states as a whole. Its like having your votes count in a forigen country. Because states don't have jurisdiction in other states they must deside a "national" leader by the meeting of delegates spelled out in the consitiution.
The only thing I think should happen is that there should be an "electrical" college. Each elector would be virtual and the winner of each district or state would have that vote automatically cast without actually having chosen a human elector.
This would require a constitutional amendment. This can be solved by having congress force all states to make their electors pledge to vote for the winner in their state or district. Congress can force states to modify their federal election practices.
Glad to see you agree with Hillary Clinton.
Isn't that something Sarge? Imagine that. I don't think anybody would have believed it, but it's true. I think the EC should go bye=bye.
Don't expect enough small states to vote against it to create the 38 neccessary for an amendment.
Which is a good thing, the EC is an important part of Federalism.
It's been pointed out in the past week that without an electoral college, we wouldn't have just questions about chads, absentee ballots and confusing punch card ballots in one state, the challenges would span all 50 states.
And while Gore currently holds about a 200,000 vote lead, there are still about 2 million absentee votes uncounted nationwide, so if this election had been decided by popular vote, you would have a different leader, but the same disputes would remain.
'
If one person violates a speed limit, nobody cares (except for the person paying the ticket!).
Not true. As a citizen and a driver I get extremely incensed at the attitude of many that speeding isn't a big deal. Yes, compared to murder it's a minor violation, but it is tolerance of minor violations that leads to people trying to get away with more serious ones.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Nobody complained because nobody thought to consult Flordia election law. I'm sure there is a whole book of elections laws in NJ, but I don't know what they are. I'm sure that in Palm Beach they have been using this ballot since who know when and nobody ever thought to check if it was legal or noticed if the law was changed making the ballot illegal.
When Ross Perot was syphonning off Republican votes, no one - including the media - paid it any attention. The very same ballot was used in Florida and no one cared. Why? Because bubba was the winner in both elections. Now Ralph Nader is hijacking democratic votes and bubba's clone is trailing. Suddenly the media is banging the drums and the lawyers are licking their chops. Yahoooooooooooo
However while people are complaining about Ralph Nader having handed the election to Bush, nobody is saying that those votes were frivolous and should be retaken.
Stop wasting your breath Dude. When you deal with Democrats you have to consider the source, then hang your head in amazement and shame that we have such political morons among us.
When you deal with Democrats you have to consider the source, then hang your head in amazement and shame that we have such political morons among us.
I'm above this, the Wrongpublicans clearly are not.
I will not engage in meaningless insult trading with feeble minded people.
Both Pigs and Fred are acting like idiots in this thread. But at least Pigs doesn't teach high school kids. I'm sure glad I don't live in Arcadia. If my kids had a teacher with such bigoted ideas like Fred, I'd sue the school district. And the Sea Beach is an ugly subway line.
When Ross Perot was syphonning off Republican votes, no one - including the media - paid it any attention. The very same ballot was used in Florida and no one cared. Why? Because bubba was the winner in both elections. Now Ralph Nader is hijacking democratic votes and bubba's clone is trailing. Suddenly the media is banging the drums, the ballots are suddenly confusing & illegal and the lawyers are licking their chops. Yahoooooooooooo
Am I mad at Nader? Yes. Do I want his votes to go to Gore? No! I want those 19,000 people to be able to cast their ballot for whoever they want and have it count.
But if we don't have a third or fourth or fifth party start to get enough votes to really start counting so they can get federal funds and maybe give us another choice in the future we'll be stuck with what we have. That is, politicians who represent not the people, not the states, but rather the party.
Could have been pressured to do so (or paid off).
Notice who's the Governor of the Sunshine State???
BMTman
Same ballot style was in use in 1996, when the late Lawton Childs, who beat Jeb Bush in 1994, was governor.
Something has finally got to put an end to this illegal ballot. It has nothing to do with the Governor, Chiles (correct) or Bush.
We certainly know it won't be around in 2002.
Mike: You have to understand that Dimwitocrats can do stupid things like you mentioned, but no other party hack will criticize that. They give each other immunity. I know of these things. I used to be a strong Democrat until Jimmy Carter, and I know how they operate.
Just because Jimmy Carter was history's greatest monster is no reason to leave the party. After Nixon the Democrats got a little chit to trade in incase of bad president and they used it for Carter which makes them even w/ the Republians.
["I used to be a strong Democrat until Jimmy Carter, and I know how they operate."]
Jimmy Carter was probably the most moral and honest President we ever had and also the biggest gentlemanly. I am proud I voted for him twice and if he ran again I would definitely vote for him again.
Jimmy Carter was probably the most moral and honest President we ever had and also the biggest gentlemanly. I am proud I voted for him twice and if he ran again I would definitely vote for him again.
He was a disaster for exactly the reasons you stated. Underhanded presidents are far more effective than honest ones. If it wasn't for Cater we'd still have that canal we built and lo cost Iranian oil.
Your party is trying to steal this election just like the way they stole it from Nixon in 1960.
The Democrats want the winner to be determined by counting all the votes. The Republicans want Bush to be declared the winner without counting all the votes. Don't accuse the Democrats of trying to steal the election.
If the Republicans truly believe that Bush has won the Presidency, they shouldn't be afraid of a recount.
They just want to prevent recounting because the current result is beneficial to them. Whether it reflects the true sentiments of the people doesn't matter.
Pure and simple:
James Baker could not have said it better: "...machines are neither Democrat or Republican."
Think about it; If you just see any clippings or watch the boob tube, is this how we really want to determine an election? Holding a card up to the light and trying to determine what the voter meant by a "hanging chad" or crease in the ballot?
By permitting this method, we are now getting into subjective rather than objective methods of obtaining the results.
If anyone truly thinks that trying to read the voter's mind is fair and accurate, why don't we have a character similar to the one Johnny Carson played on his show, where he hold the envelope to his head to determine the answer.
If one steps back from this and takes a deep breath, it should be clear why this country is moving away from manual counts to machines.
We've got: Hot Lunch!
If one steps back from this and takes a deep breath, it should be clear why this country is moving away from manual counts to machines.
According to a recent item in the Wall Street Journal, the last company in the United States to make voting machines ceased doing so in 1978!!!
The local news reported that some New Jersey districts have purchased new digital machines.
People at work who live in New Jersey and people who live in Pennsylvania voted with new digital machines.
And thanks to this fiasco a lot more people will in 2002.
In my section of Pennsylvania we are still voting on paper ballets, where you have to darken the box alongside the name of the person for which you want to vote. There is no prospect that this will ever change!
That's the way we did it back home in North Carolina. I served as an elections official there from 1985-1994; we experimented with machines during the primaries and runoff primaries for the 1988 Presidential/gubernatorial elections. The delays got so bad that we reverted to paper ballots for the general election and sent the @*&% computerized machines back to the supplier. According to our son, Franklin County is still using paper ballots (we vote in New Jersey now).
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Hot lunch: You need a stiff drink because your insightful reply went right over the head of the Dimwitocrats. Don't bother them with logic because they can;t follow it.
Fred;
I guess we agree not just on the virtues of the ABs and D-types.
I wish everyone out there would realize this: In this wonderful country of ours, you have the right to vote, however, when doubt exists as to the actual intentions of the voter through his/her ignorance (please remember everyone; ignorance means lack of knowledge, not stupidity) of the procedure and requirements (absent fraud or deceit) of ballot preparation and submittal, that ballot must be disqualified.
We are now in dangerous waters when reviewers can examine each ballot and attempt to determine the intention of person submitting that ballot.
Using this perverted Florida logic perhaps this country could forgo the election process by just impanelling a board of psychics who would be able to tell us the intentions of the majority of registered voters!
We've got: Hot Lunch!
The people's votes should not be thrown out because of an illegal ballot. Machine problems should not break a person's right to vote, especially if it causes the wrong man to be "elected"
Using this perverted Florida logic perhaps this country could forgo the election process by just impanelling a board of psychics who would be able to tell us the intentions of the majority of registered voters!
We've got: Flaming Crap!
Where I vote, it is clearly posted if you make a mistake on the ballot, you can get a new one. It's not a "machine problem" if someone votes for two people and doesn't get a new ballot, it's "human ignorance." If a ballot shouldn't be thrown out, what should happen? A revote for the whole county because of a few people that can't follow directions?
Rob: According to Porky, yes. But consider the source.
I can consider the source of your message, but I don't usually like to think about what happens inside the colon.
Nice try Pork, but take it from me, you need more fiber in your diet.
Punch card ballots are ridiculous and wasteful. Why should paper be wasted. Congress should immediately move to ban all ballots in which votes are registered through punching holes. Optical pencil readers are the way to go if we wish to stay in the Nineteenth Century.
Punch cards being ridiculous and wasteful was not what I was responding to. That's a different dissucion. However if you want to talk about that, okay. I totally agree with you. Do you know what the only reason why every county hasn't gone to an electronic system? Because East Bumblefuck County, USA doesn't have enough money to buy the machines. They are not cheap. That's the only important reason why. Here's an interesting article about a computerized voting system.
I heard a report of people being REFUSED new ballots after making a mistake.
There was an article in Monday's Times which documented this in Palm Beach County Florida. Many people said they could not get help with the ballot or they could not get a new ballot if they messed theirs up. (This is potentially much more legally potent than the fact that the ballot was confusing, but I hope that argument never goes to court.)
Perhaps- but it seems that most of the states of the union have legal provisions for hand recounts. Most interestingly, the Lone Star State has only recently passed a law for hand counts - signed in law by G W Bush. This pretty much neutralizes Bush's arguement in this case.
Anyone know what line would go to Queens after the 63rd Street tunnel connection is opened? Also how will the lines run once the S/S Manhattan Bridge tracks are opened?
Tell 'em Bob!
There have been two counts already. How many do you want? Cut out this crap and tell Gore the Bore to show some class and cash in his chips. You guys are going to pay for this for years ahead if you don't end this circus now.
You guys are going to pay for this for years ahead if you don't end this circus now.
We will pay for it. We'll have to endure the next four years with an inept president that doesn't even have a mandate of the plurality of voters!
At least he won't have his party Congress for the last two.
Fred, calm down.
Sounds like you're running low on Thorizine.
BMTman
Good point pigs.
Besides, as far as I can remember, different parties are to be LISTED IN DIFFERENT COLUMNS. The Florida ballot should be thrown out because both Dems and Repubs were LISTED ON THE SAME COLUMN. Only Buhcanan was listed on the opposite side (as far as I could see from what's been shown on TV and in the papers).
I could understand how senior citizens and/or recent immigrants could have been confused by the setup of odd columns and the arrows not lining up properly with the appropriate candidate (s).
BMTman
They have a lot of people on both sides, like all of the fourth party candidates (like the Libertarians and the Socialists).
I've never seen a paper ballot (and I can think of three states where I've seen paper ballots) with the different parties in different columns.
The pathetic thing, as Peter pointed out, is the paper ballots. But they certainly aren't illegal. In 2 years, in Florida, I'll bet they are. But not now.
Wrong. The card was approved by people who were obviously NOT senior citizens, which is the case in terms of population for most of the districts in Southern Florida. That's what the problem is all about.
Funny how no one mentions this...
BMTman
All I got a say is that how can the senior citizens down there complain about the ballot being too hard to understand, but can flawlessly play 10 bingo cards at the same time? :)
I kind of wonder about that myself. As my friend, the mastermind BMT Man to try to explain that to both of us. Come on Doug, we are waiting.
Have you ever sat among the 'older crowd' and watched a bingo game? Alot of the time there are mistakes and the folks yell out 'bingo', when in fact they haven't won.
So, give me a freakin' break.
BMTman
I'll give you a freakin' break when you understand a bingo game is not the same as an election ballot. You are supposed to understand what you are going if you're a voter, and if you jdon't understand, ask for help. Precinct workers are there for you. To equate bingo with voting is ludicrous at best, and ridiculous at worst. You need a tranquilizer.
Then why the hell did you agree with Rob if you don't agree with the premise?
You need a tranquilizer.
You need a brain.
You need bran
OK, that is funny!
It was just a joke to begin with. There's another variation going around which is that maybe the old people would have understood the ballot if it was set up like a bingo game.
I'll give you a freakin' break when you understand a bingo game is not the same as an election ballot. You are supposed to understand what you are going if you're a voter, and if you jdon't understand, ask for help. Precinct workers are there for you. To equate bingo with voting is ludicrous at best, and ridiculous at worst. You need a tranquilizer.
The NYTimes article today (Mon) stated very clearly that MANY people asked for help. THEY COULD NOT GET IT. The ballot was so confusing that the elections officials were overwhelmed and simply would not answer questions in many cases. Worse, and certainly illegal, people said that they had realized that they voted the wrong way, asked for a new ballot, were told to line up somewhere, and were never given a new one.
I am not saying here that they should revote - that's a whole 'nother can of worms. But the evidence is conclusive that the ballot was very confusing, the system broke down, and it very likely cost Gore the election. Bush gets elected because of an incompetent election clerk in Florida. If that makes you happen, fine.
And yes, you certainly can be a Democrat and also be incompetent.
I kind of wonder about that myself. Ask
my friend, the mastermind BMT Man, to try to explain that to both of us. Come on Doug, we are waiting.
It's really kinda simple, Fred. Elections (and politics in general) is a once-in-a-while happening, while Bingo is a religion. All the time.
Catholic joke: What are the Five Marks of the True Faith?
Answer: One, Holy, Catholic, Apostolic and BINGO!
As a Catholic I like the joke. Perhaps a little humor right about now will cool down tempers somewhat. Politics tend to get us very angry.
What few news commentators seem to mention is the fact that in 2000, one of the nation's biggest states (and many others too) is still using paper ballots, of all things. Talk about being absurdly low-tech ...
Apparently, there are two types of paper ballots in use now, the "punch card" type ballot, which apparent produces tons of loose chads and makes people across the nation mad at each other, and the "optical scanner" ballots, where voters mark in a box next to a candidate's name and the ballot is then scanned like a lottery ticket is in a machine.
I think the optical ballot scanners are becoming more and more common, though I'm sure problems probably would come up there too if anyone looked real hard.
Apparently, there are two types of paper ballots in use now, the "punch card" type ballot... and the "optical
scanner" ballots...
There's also the traditional "make an X in the box" type, still in use in my home county in North Carolina.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Thanks for mentioning it for me. That speaks volumes about Democrat duplicity. The lady who cast the deciding vote to hand count the ballots was the same jerk who okayed it in the first place.
The ballot was made by a Democrat and approved by some other officials, some of whom were Democrats. Clearly they utterly screwed up. But wouldn't you say your theory is going a little far? I've worked on campaigns and believe me none of them are well enough organized to pull off the shady deal you are mentioning. Not even close.
Personally, I don't want to see a revote, because it opens too many cans of worms. But having read about the fiasco in that county, where LOTS of people were confused by the ballot, and could not get help or a new ballot if they got confused, I can certainly see why they are very upset. I know I would be upset if my vote got screwed up in that way, and I was illegally prevented from getting a new ballot after I saw that I had screwed it up (before casting it). Wouldn't you?
Bad part: no matter who is elected, their election is tainted. Not good for our country. Silver lining: should lead to modernization of the electoral system.
Problem with a revote in one FL county is that they will KNOW that the way they vote will affect the overall outcome. So you have to expand it to all of FL. But THEY will know that how they vote affects the overall outcome. Therefore, the only solution is a second national election.
-Hank
Another solution is to allow only those who voted on 11/7 to vote in the second election.
But suppose you voted for Ralph Nader on Nov. 7 in hopes of his getting to five percent in the national vote in order to qualify for matching federal funds in 2004.
Now, if you vote again, you know that Nader finished at three percent, and your re-vote for him will do nothing towards getting him those funds. But you do know if you vote for Gore or Bush this time, it will affect the outcome. The same holds true for people who actually did vote for Buchanan, Harry Browne or any other minor candidate. In this situation, you'd be allowing them a chance not to just to re-vote, but to change their minds based on information voters for none of the other minor party candidates in Florida or the rest of the U.S. had on Nov. 7.
You can argue that point only if after the re-vote you can subtract all of the first vote Nader votes from Gore and have Bush win. I seriously doubt that will be the case.
Subtracting votes after the re-vote? Wow, that would confuse things even more.
Anyway, as of 2 a.m. Sunday the elections board has said it has found a 17 vote gain in the manual recount for Gore on a one percent check, and will meet again on Monday for a full recount.
Meanwhile, Duval County, Fla. -- which apparently is strongly Republican according to the Associated Press -- has turned up just about as many invalidated ballots as in Palm Beach County, so I'm sure we're going to end up with a court order mandating either hand recount there as well or a hand count in neither location.
Maybe we can run the country for the next four years like Phil Wrigley ran the 1966 Chicago Cubs, with no manager, just a bunch of coaches.
I'm saying if you MENTALY or on your calculator subtrack all the origional nader votes from the re-voted Gore total and Gore still beats Bush your arguement will not have any merit.
Wrigley's "college of coaches" system was used from 1961 through 1965. Leo Durocher became manager in 1966 and was, by his own definition, a nice guy that year; i. e., the Cubs finished last, the first team in history to finish behind the Mets.
(Problem with a revote in one FL county is that they will KNOW that the way they vote will affect the overall outcome. So you have to expand it to all of FL. But THEY will know that how they vote affects the overall outcome. Therefore, the only solution is a second national election.)
I agree, it all doesn't work. So the honorable thing to do (whoever is declared President) is not to decide how to give away the surplus without a mandate, and just pay off the national debt until the 2002 election. Anyone disagree?
A falling surplus under Bush would be the equivalent of a rising crime rate under Rudy's successor. There would be outrage.
Well, they can always settle the matter VIA a duel (ala Hamilton- Burr). With any luck at all they'll ......................................
Either candidate would lack legitimacy. A Gore victory on a disputed recount would be nearly as bad as a Bush victory.
One reason people are going nuts is that a Bush victory would give Republicans total control, with both houses of Congress. While they are unlikely to agree enough among themselves to make significant policy changes, they could agree to target funding for Democratic voting states, places, and people, right or wrong.
Remember, the 1994 "small government" revolution consisted solely of cutting funds to the poor, with exceptions for rural areas where many poor whites live. Pork and privilege was basically untouched. The Republicans tried to slash transit funds for New York, despite the fact that when you add all infrastructure funds together New York has been a big loser for 50 years. When faced with a budget problem a couple of years ago, the chief Republican proposal was to cut the earned income tax credit for the working poor.
Here's where W. could really show he is a winner. He could agree he doesn't have a mandate, and to show a willingness to work with the other side, he and Cheney could throw control of the Senate to the Democrats by agreeing to support a moderate Democrat for President Pro-Tempore (ie. Lieberman?). He would show he was willing to work together for the good of the country, rather than ignoring the wishes of 50.2 percent of the voters (and 75 percent of the stupid non-voters).
Plus, with Trent Lott out of the way, he'd cement his control over the Republicans once and for all.
he and Cheney could throw control of the Senate to the Democrats by agreeing to support a moderate Democrat for President Pro-Tempore (ie. Lieberman?).
If it turns out that the Senate is tied (if the Democrat wins Washington), then the Pro-tempore would be a Democrat anyway. Congressional officers are chosen on the day that Congress first convenes. On that day, Al Gore will still be the Vice President and still cast the tie breaking vote.
But as soon as Lieberman becomes VP, the governor of Connecticut will appoint a Republican to take his place. That's why the stories last Wednesday said no matter what happens with Bush and Gore, Lott will remain majority leader (not really that bad for the Democrats, since `ol Trent is as dumb as a box of rocks a lot of the time)
I know.
Politically, the Majority Leader is a lot more important than the Pro-tempore, but it is the Pro-Tempore who will cast the tie breaking vote if the Vice President doesn't show up.
The Pro-Tempore is a Senator who already would have voted, so he couldn't break a tie.
So how were ties broken in the 47th Senate, which was tied and where there was no Vice President for most of it?
The constitution doesn't mention it. At least not clearly.
I believe that if the measure ties, and the VP is not there, it just doesn't pass. (Same applies in the house if it ties: just doesn't pass, there is no VP involvement). Pro Tem is basically a ceremonial office, I believe always given to the senior senator. The fact that Strom is Pro Tem should tell you something....
Larry's idea may not work technically, but he still has a point. Bush could push the Senate to give a few committe chairs to the Dems, for instance.
Trent may indeed be good for the Democrats. But I would not say that he is good for the country.
My rule of thumb is: Anyone who's had Dick Morris as their campaign and policy consultant (that's Trent Lott, Jesse Helms and Bill Clinton, if you'rs scoring) probably has the core beliefs and/or political scruples of a toaster.
He did absolutely nothing wrong. His crime was only that he didn't comply with the high "moral standards" of the puritanical idiots that think they run this country.
He was obviously trying to promore the concept of Full Service gas station laws. A very worthy cause.
No, I'm not talking about Morris' carnal love of podiatal digits. I mean his "white hands" ad for Helms in the N.C. Senate race in 1990, which was worse than anything Lee Atwater (and Al Gore, for that matter) did with the Willie Horton ad, along with Morris' advice to Lott and Clinton not to stand on any principles they might have as members of the Republican and Democratic parties, but to "triangulate" and basically co-opt the other side's position, even if that's not what the people who elected you want you to do.
Politics is the art of compromise, but when there's no priciple a polictican will risk their career for, it tends to make their supporters even more cynical than they already are.
Dick Morris= ***SLEAZEBALL***
And if he could pull it off, and govern, he'd probably get another 4 years.
Unfortunately, he owes the religious right big time for giving him south carolina. And with no mandate, and without the maverick streak that McCain showed us (YES I KNOW MCCAIN DOESN'T LIKE AMTRAK), its really hard to imagine Bush challenging his party that way.
Not revoting in Palm Beach County would be to ultimately disregard the laws and to hurt the political process for many years.
The Palm Beach ballots were illegal under Florida law. The law clearly and unambiguously states that places to mark selection for candidate shall be on the right. It has nothing to do with confusion.
Republicans have shown themselves to be PURE HYPOCRITES. When projections showed that Bush could win the popular vote and lose the electoral votes, Republicans were crying that this would be an injustice and they would fight it to the finish, even though the Constitution clearly says that would have no case. Now that the tables are turned, do you think the Republicans are crying injustice? Certainly not!
If Gore gets what he deserves, which is the Presidency, the people will remember that he was elected with both popular and electoral mandates. Everybody will remember how justice was served.
If Bush wins the presidency, he'll just be the third son of a president to lose the popular vote, and the second to "lose" to a Tennessee Democrat.
Actually, with over 1 million absentee votes still uncounted in California, most of those from conservative Orange and San Diego counties, there is the possibility by this time next week Gore could have won Florida while the popular vote swung to Bush's side. Then we would get the hilarious sight of both parties completely reversing their stances (and Senator-elect Hillary would suddenly decide, golly, gee maybe that them there Electoral College thing isn't such a bad idea after all).
Listen Pork, the ballots were put into effect by a Democratic commissioner in that county, and it's the same ballot they use in Chicago, where the former corrupt mayor's son comes from, and is now fulminating about going to court. A voter is supposed to be able to read and if there is something they don;t understand there are poll watchers there to help them. Cut out the crap. Bush has won fair and square under the existing laws. I do favor the abolition of the Electoral College. It is an anachronism of a time when our slave holding founding fathers didn't trust the judgment of the people.
No matter who designed and endorsed the ballot, having 19,000 people's vote not count because of a specific mistake does not serve the interest of democracy. If the 19,000 votes were to turn the tide for Bush I would still feel that a re-vote would be the "right" thing to do. Sure I would be mad as hell and would feel pissed at the Republicans, but when an election is this close nobody should win or loose because of something like this.
Its election irregularities like this that bring dictators to power. When a mistake, no matter how trivial, has the power to descide an election, the mistake needs to be eliminated.
Listen Pork, the ballots were put into effect by a Democratic commissioner in that county, and it's the same ballot they use in Chicago
That is just a lie perpetrated by the Republicans, and they have even retracted it.
WRONG. Chicago (as well as the rest of Cook County) uses similar butterfly ballots. Many places throughout the US do. However, all the presidential candidates here were listed on only on the left-hand side of the holes, making it very easy to understand which holes to punch for which candidates.
There is a section near the end of our ballots for judicial rentention that lists seveal dozen judges up for retention using alternating sides similar to the ballots in Palm Beach, and it was very easy to get the holes confused, even for a college-educated guy with 20/20 vision such as myself.
The only fair solution would be A) a re-vote in Palm Beach County, or B) (ideally) a statewide runoff between Bush and Gore, or C) a judge assigning those 19,000 double-punched ballots to Gore and Buchanan based on their voting percentages in the rest of the state. Of course the Republicans will do anything to block any proposal, because they know they'd lose. And this is the party that supposedly trusts the people and not the government. (Of course, the Democrats would be doing the exact same thing if the roles were reversed.)
On a somwhat on-topic vein, it's interesting to note that Nader was the only candidate who called for improved mass transit as a central plank of his party's platform. I don't care for Nader personally, but the Green Party is looking better and better.
-- David
Chicago!
Sorry, I cannot accept testaments to Nixon's statesmanship. He certainly was skillful in his dealings with China. But he also used the powers of the presidency to try to steal the '72 election. The fact that he did not need to steal the election is hardly relevant. He loved to spin his history so I don't put much faith in his (or his family's) explanations of the events of 1960.
Look, as a very partisan Democrat, I really really hope Gore doen't drag this out. Wait till the absentee ballots come in, look around for fraud, and if you don't have the votes, concede. Saying he should concede now is ridiculous. Saying that Nixon acted morally better than Gore is acting is awfully far off the mark.
Bull@#%^&$%^&@#!!!!!! I know Democrats hate Nixon and what he did with Watergate was outrageeous, BUT THE FACT REMAINS HE DID SHOW STATESMANSHIP IN 1960 when he refused to battle what many historians now believe was a tainted election. You hate him, I despise Clinton, but I will give the devil his due as a great politician. Give Nixon's decision in 1960 the credit that;s due.
BUT HE DIDN"T STOP HIS PARTY FROM CHALLENGING THE ELECTION! If the Republican suit had come out in Nixon's favour do you whink he would have turned down the presidency? Hell no!
He was wrong to do what he did, he should have challenged it to the end. And I say that even though he was a Republican.
Democracy cannot function when elections can be tainted. If the elections are not challenged until they are right (and that means in Bush won questionable places too!), we risk having the same kind of "Democratic Republic" as the former Democratic Republic of Germany (East Germany).
For why do you say bad thing about DDR? DDR is not corrupt! DDR is strong!
NOTE: Dutche Democratik Republik is my favourite east bloc country.
Reagan said "Tear this wall down, Mr. Gorbachev". and he obliged there is no more DDR, Jersey, I'm beginning to worry about you.
How about all of us chipping in and buying Jersey Mike a one way ticket to Pyongyang?
Yo, Beach, here's my 10 bucks
I never said it was still around, I only said it was my favourite East Bloc nation.
I never said it was still around, I only said it was my favourite East Bloc nation.
That's like saying you have a favorite flesh eating disease.
If you go back and READ your history book you will see that the Party did challenge the vote in many close districts in court and then lost. The party descided it would be best if Nixon did not challenge the votes himself because A) the case wasn't very strong and B) they wanted to preserve his image for future elections. Its wasn't an example of character, just a sneaky political move to have his cake and eat it to. I admire Al Gore for standing up for what may in fact be his. If people have good reason to feel that they have been wronged or cheated they should stand up and fight instead of letting the man walk all over them.
Propaganda straight from DNC headquarter where a Jerseyite, who should be cringing with shame as the way that Corzine fellow of yours bought his way in, mouths bromides that are completely off the mark. Nixon never challenged the ballots in Texas and Cook County (Chicago). Very few Presidential losers ever get a second chance, so he wasn't doing it for his own fortune. What he did was statemanlike. I don't a hoot in hell what you Democrats say about that. It showed courage. The 1960 Election was tainted, so say many historian and observers of that election from both Texas and Illinois. I happened to be a Democrat at that time and reveled in JFK's winning. But history has shown that might have been a tainted election. That's a fact.
Nixon didn't challenge the ballots, the Republican Party did. The result would have been the same if the party challenge won in court. The only differance was Nixon acted like a slippery worm instead of being honest about how he felt.
I have no problem abut Corsine. Now we know for a fact that there is at least one senator who HASN'T BEEN BOUGHT BY THE SPECIAL INTERESTS. He also pumped about 70 million non-government dollars into the local economy which is probably more than Franks can say. I voted for Florio in the primary and I would have liked to see him win, but I have no problem w/ what Corsine did. Its a shame Florio and Corsine didn't work together in the primary because they are both good people and I would have liked one in the Senate and one as NJ governor.
PS: This "progaganda" came from ABC news on election night.
"Nixon could have done the same thing in 1960 when there was evidence of some real fraud in Texas and Illinois, but he was a statesman and decided it would hurt the country."
I'll probably regret stooping down to this level, but for the record Nixon was anything but amicable regarding the 1960 election. He conceeded not because he was such a "statesman", but because even with Illinois he wouldn't have won the election. Minnessota had a clear victory for Kennedy (as did Texas by the way.) And the charges of election fraud in Illinois are anything but conclusive.
Anyway, Nixon was bitter about the 1960 election until the day he died 35 years later.
Andrew
["Nixon could have done the same thing in 1960 when there was evidence of some real fraud in Texas and Illinois, but he was a statesman"]
NIXON WAS A FELON!!!!
Worse than that, if Lieberman was elected, his replacement would be appointed by the Republican governor. But it looks like that won't happen.
Yet the Democrats will pick up a seat if/when Strom Thurmond kicks the bucket. South Carolina's Democratic governor would appoint a replacement. Much the same is true in North Carolina; Jesse Helms isn't as old as Strom Thurmond (heck, no one is, except for the occasional Galapagos tortoise), but he's said to be in very poor health.
Jesse Helms isn't as old as Strom Thurmond ... but he's said
to be in very poor health.
Bro. Jesse has had some well-publicized health problems but I would hardly characterize him as being in poor health. And in North Carolina the Governor is tradition-bound to appoint someone from the same party as the person who held the office previously.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Jesse Helms isn't as old as Strom Thurmond ... but he's said
to be in very poor health.
Bro. Jesse has had some well-publicized health problems but I would hardly characterize him as being in poor health. And in North Carolina the Governor is tradition-bound to appoint someone from the same party as the person who held the office previously.
I had heard that he has cancer - Little Man 'Tate, same as Rudy Giuliani. In someone who must be pushing 80, that sounds mighty serious.
Prostate cancer in a man pushing 80 is frequently not treated. The biopsy sample is tested to determine whether it is fast or slow growing, and if slow, a man of that age will usually die of some other cause first. Otherwise, drug and/or radiation treatment can arrest the growth. This, of course, assumes it was caught early and hasn't mestastesized. Then all bets are off.
Every man over 40 should get a periodic PSA blood test.
Prostate cancer in a man pushing 80 is frequently not treated. The biopsy sample is tested to determine whether it is fast or slow growing, and if slow, a man of that age will usually die of some
other cause first. Otherwise, drug and/or radiation treatment can arrest the growth. This, of course, assumes it was caught early and hasn't mestastesized. Then all bets are off.
Well, speaking of expected years one has left, Jesse is 79, an elderly man by any standards ... yet he's young enough to be Strom's son!!
Yet somehow I suspect that Strom will last longer. He might be the human equivalent of a bristlecone pine, some of which have been core-dated as being over 4,000 years old.
Which isn't to say that age can never be a disadvantage in politics. Delaware Senator Roth (of IRA fame) lost in this week's election largely because he was considered too old for the job at "just" 78. Of course, the fact that he fainted twice during campaign appearances didn't help :-)
Strom has been hospitalized recently, so he's apparently starting to age. It's hard to believe that he ran for president in 1948!
In my American History class we learned that a Senator Strom Thurmond helped block a civil rights bill in 1948. It took me a second or 2 to realize that name was still familliar. Evil, racist Republican or not, it would still be cool to have a 100 year old Senator.
Hey Jersey, don't pull that crap on me. Strom was a Democrat when he pulled all those shenanigans five decades ago. He has had an African-American press secretary, and many blacks on his staff. He also gets 30% of the black vote when he runs, very good f or a Republican. He has grown as a politician just like George Wallace of your party. Get for fact straight Jersey Mike Corzine.
He was a Boll Weevil Democrat who left the party when it's philosophy moved away from segregation and went Republican as that party came to be seen as the voice of reaction.
Amen to that. I get a PSA every year, and since I have an enlarged one, I have had three biopsies. No fun, but necessary. What you said was words of wisdom. I hope everyone on this line understands that.
Worse than that, if Lieberman was elected, his replacement would be appointed by the Republican governor. But it looks like that won't happen.
Yet the Democrats will pick up a seat if/when Strom Thurmond kicks the bucket. South Carolina's Democratic governor would appoint a replacement. Much the same is true in North Carolina; Jesse Helms isn't as old as Strom Thurmond (heck, no one is, except for the occasional Galapagos tortoise), but he's said to be in very poor health.
(At least we can expect DART to see a modest increase in Federal funding, but kiss the 2nd Ave. Subway goodbye for at least 4 more years.)
After four years, the current MTA capital plan will expire. Despite the defeat of the Bond Issue, the City, State and MTA will be so deep in debt at that point that we will be lucky to avoid the planned shrinkage of the system (with rising ridership), let alone improvements.
Maybe they'll take the hint and drop the refinancing.
I would say the best you could hope for is having some funds thrown the MTA's way in 2002, mostly for Metro North/LIRR projects (Grand Central connection, anyone?) in order to improve Pataki's re-election chances with suburban New York voters.
BTW -- Did anyone see the story on the news Friday about the teacher in Georgia who designed a butterfly ballot similar to the one used in Palm Beach County, put Disney names and pictures next to the punch holes, with arrows pointing from each character to the proper hole and then asked his 7- and 8-year-olds to vote. Every single second grader in the class punched out the exact hole they intended to by matching up the arrow with the proper character.
Based on that, I believe if Jerry Springer ever decides to quit his TV show and get back into politics, Palm Beach County is the place to run.
Pardon my off-topic political post, but everybody who makes fun of the elderly morons in Palm Beach County who are incompetant to vote is apparently unaware of the fact that thousands of ballots were misaligned in the machine and the voter had to guess which hole the arrow was pointing to. 20,000 of them guessed wrong.
Recent posts on subtalk concerned Mississippi getting a Nissan plant even though it is a poor state. I have lived in Mississippi and Louisiana, both poor states. Yet, they have modern voting equipment, in most places consisting of paper ballots that are marked in pencil and can be read by machine and automatically tabulated. Palm beach county is a predominately democratic county in a wealthier area with an elected election commissioner who approved the ballot. Why are they using obsolete voting equipment? For the next election I hope they do a better job. It is too late now to complain.
As far as what party will do more for transit I don't think either one has done much. It is true that in general Republicans have been less sympathetic to transit. The democrats on the other hand say they are in favor of public transit. Unfortunately, they don't put their money where their mouth is because they have other prioities for tax dollars such as health care. New York City and State has had democratic governors and mayors for many years along with democratic US Representatives and Senators during democratic presidencies. The second avenue was not built during their administrations.
For a conservative pro transit perspective, go to http://trolleycar.org
Its that like the anti-nycsubway.org?
Not at all.While I'm a Democrat, People should know that many conservatives support rail transportation. http://trolleycars.org is one example. for another,remember that the 2000 Republican platform had a pro- Amtrak plank in it, We may need it to beat Bu$h with if he tries to defund Amtrak. Furthermore, The Interstate 2 proposal by Gil Carmichael (Daddy's FRA Administrator) is one of the more exciting HSR proposals out there, calling for a national system of dedicated high speed routes. Fight for your trains, learn the issues, and transit could do very well under Republicans. Welfare reform needs good transit to work.
Apparently, they also don't have a way for someone to change their vote before leaving the booth.
In New York City, until you pull the voting lever back to the left to finish, you can always pull up the little black lever for the candidate you voted for and then pick someone else.
And not to mention the fact that in New York, the machine is designed to lock all of the other candidates once you've chosen one for the office. If you try to vote twice, you'll notice and you'll pull up the wrong lever to reverse it (which I did on Tuesday just to play with the system).
If that is the case, then the blame shifts from the stupidity of the voters to the incompetence of the election officials who alligned the ballots with the candidate's names in the machines (the cards are supposed to be locked into their proper place in the slot with a pair of pegs at the front of the slot and peg holes at the top of the card).
That does make the Palm Beach voters look better, but we're still in the same situation where challenging election results based on incompetence rather than deliberate vote fraud is asking for a slew of similar claims all across the U.S. New Mexico's having the same problem with election officials errors, though their lack of electoral votes makes the problems less publicized.
Back on topic now -- Whie Bush was Governor he did work with Democrats and Republicans in the state to keep Amtrak from shutting down the Texas Eagle, which runs from Chicago to San Antonio via Dallas-Fort Worth. The state agreed to put up half the funding, so he may not be as anti-rail as some people think.
Now Republican House Whip Tom DeLay -- he's the one who single-handedly blocked Houston from getting a light-rail system proposal up and running this past summer, even while the Gore campaign was hitting Bush for the city's high ozone pollution level. In other words, he hates mass transit so much, he even sabotaged a measure that might have help the national PR for his party's nominee.
DeLay, his friends and most of his consituents drive cars, so he sees nothing wrong in federal funds for a new Interstate 69 from Laredo to Indianapolis (I beleive building school buses is the only two things those areas have in common). But apparently he thinks only Democrats would use mass transit, so there's no point in giving it a penny. He and right-wing activist/trolly buff Richard Vigure really need to sit down and have a talk some day...
Now Republican House Whip Tom DeLay -- he's the one who single-handedly blocked Houston from getting a light-rail system proposal up and running this past summer, even while the Gore
campaign was hitting Bush for the city's high ozone pollution level. In other words, he hates mass transit so much, he even sabotaged a measure that might have help the national PR for his party's nominee.
I've never been in Houston, but from what I understand of the place it is about as unsuitable for rail transit as you possibly could get, even more so than Los Angeles. Both jobs and housing are greatly dispersed in a geographical sense. Commuting tends to be suburb-to-suburb rather than suburb-to-downtown, and no one has yet figured out how to make mass transit even remotely workable in the former scenario.
There is a high chance that a Houston light rail system would turn out to be a costly boondoggle, attracting far fewer riders than predicted and with a farebox cost recovery rate not too much over the single digits. That would be counterproductive for rail transit nationwide, as opponents of any project would be all too eager to use Houston as an argument against the project.
In my view, it's far better to use the money for more-feasible projects elsewhere.
DeLay, his friends and most of his consituents drive cars, so he sees nothing wrong in federal funds for a new Interstate 69 from Laredo to Indianapolis (I beleive building school buses is the only two things those areas have in common).
Interstate 69 has been proposed as a means of handling the huge increase in truck traffic to and from Mexico that's resulted from NAFTA.
>>Interstate 69 has been proposed as a means of handling the huge
increase in truck traffic to and from Mexico that's resulted from
NAFTA. <<
BAD PLAN. Those trucks belong on piggyback trains. We don't have breathable oxygen to waste on increased truck traffic(or single user cars for that matter).
Houston is indeed a fine example of stupid planning run amok.
>>there is a high chance that a Houston light rail system would turn out
to be a costly boondoggle, attracting far fewer riders than predicted and
with a farebox cost recovery rate not too much over the single digits.<<
Well, probably, but if Houston has outstripped LA as the smog capital--W/O the advantage of mountains trapping air, then the costs in respiratory disease need to be factored in. The idea that public transit is somehow outside the spectrum of civilized amenities like sewage and clean water is obsolete. Only a libertarian would expect such public necessities to be profitable.
Houston's main business area runs from downtown out towards the southwest side of the city. Heavy rail would be a flop, but a light rail system defintely could draw people, since aside from competing with L.A. for the smog title, Houston also is one of the nation's biggest areas of road rage.
BTW -- The pollution comes from both vehicle emissions and the oil and pertochemical refineries on the east side of town. The east side of Houston is Texas' answer to Elizabeth, N.J. -- just substitute the Houston Ship Channel for the Arthur Kill.
Houston, and Texas' approach to air pollution in general, is really the only thing that actually scares me about our probable next president.
Back on topic (sorry 'bout that): Peter is right that scarce transit $$$ should be spent carefully. But...that would mean all of them would be spent in the cities that already have transit (at least it would if construction costs were not higher in denser cities). And given that Houston has a relatively sizeable and dense* downtown, with horrendous air pollution and congested highways, I question whether it is such a bad place for light rail. Is it really more expensive than expanding highways, especially given the cost of the air pollution?
*the sidewalks of downtown Houston are deserted at rush hour. Its really odd. Everyone in the skyscrapers goes right to their car, parked in the garage in their building, and drives right away. The availability of parking downtown might be the biggest problem for transit in Houston. Houston is just about the only place on earth I would never consider living. What a hell hole.
Yes, but thruway costs are borne by state-issued bonds backed by thruway toll revenue. The construction may not even require a bond issue. Funding thruway expansion is less difficult than funding the subway.
-Hank
(Yes, but thruway costs are borne by state-issued bonds backed by thruway toll revenue. The construction may not even require a bond issue. Funding thruway expansion is less difficult than funding the subway.)
I wish. Cuomo raided the Thruway authority to fund the non-profiteers by "selling" assets to it, and having the authority sell bonds backed by fares. Pataki is doing similar damage to the MTA, and worse. I guess that makes it "fair" -- the entire state is screwed.
As I'VE said in the past,why should we as tax payers pay for something we paid TWICE FOR? Ether the T.A builds the damn thing or they don't,its a damn shame it should take so long for the MAN to figure out if he wants to spend the money or not. The MTA DOES NOT HAVE THE PEOPLE'S BEST INTREST AT HEART OR MIND .And dont try to blame this problem on the ''NIMBYS''.
Most bridges that carry roads OVER the thruway have earth fill approaches: widening the Thruway would entail TOTAL replacement of these spans. KA CHING!!!
Can anyone suggest the best subway route from the Port Authority Bus terminal to 109 E. 16th. St. Thank you!
First, I am assuming that the 16th Street you are referring to is in Manhattan, not one of the other boroughs. That being said, I'm not overly familiar with that area of Manhattan, but... since you indicated that it is East 16th Street, I am further assuming it is close to the river. Therefore, I would suggest taking the A/C/E to 14th Street, change for the L (Canarsie line), and take that to 1st Avenue (the last stop in Manhattan), then walk north two blocks to 16th.
If it's in some other borough, you'll need to get a Hagstrom's (might not be a bad idea anyway if you aren't familiar with the City).
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Actually, you would overshoot slightly. 109 E. 16th St. would be just east of Union Square Park.
Depending on how much luggage you're dealing with, the fastest way would probably be to walk the underground corridor from the Port Authority to Times Square, get on the rear of the N or R and take it to 14th St., then get off at the rear (16th St.) exit and walk across the park.
Lots of luggage? Then the A/C/E to 14th St. and the L to Union Square would be best.
Where's the dividing line between East and West?
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Fifth Avenue. Numbers go from there and go up to the next block of 100 at each avenue, except Lexington and Madison.
So 100 is between 4th and 3rd. In this case, Union Square East (4th) and Irving Place (3.5). On the north side of the street.
Broadway divides Houston, 3rd and 4th Streets.
Thanks. Like they say, when you get to be my age, the memory is the second thing to go, and I forget the first.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Go to: http://www.whdh.com/news/local6.shtml for the story (before the link expires) -Nick
KYW and WRTI (Shadow Traffic)both reported this morning that subway-surface lines were transferring their passengers to the Market Street subway at 40th Street because of "equipment problems" in the tunnel.
The new (CBTC) signal system was being worked on again last night. Transfers at 40th St are the standard pattern after 9pm when they're working on the signals. I guess this means they screwed up or at least didn't finish the night's work in time for the moring rush hour.
I hope this isn't a sign of things to come with the first CBTC system in the northeast...
What's CBTC? Is this some moving block thing?
I wonder if the 40th Street thing was really a problem for commuters. Because at school, when there is a major transit delay, the principal (who is actually known as the president) will make an announcement condoning people's late arrivals due to transit problems, yet he made no announcement about the subway surface tunnel closure. Its either it didn't have much of an effect, or not enough people use all 5 subway surface lines to warrant the need for condoning late arrivals.
Construction to extend the HBLR to 22nd Street Bayonne is scheduled to begin in 2001 instead of 2002, with completion of the southward extension now scheduled to be 18 months earlier than previously planned. Story in Jersey Journal. Ridership now 6800 per day.
The MR LI group, sponcered in part by Trainland, has a nice web site that outlines there frequent videos that appear on the same Public Access TV station as Transit Transit (at least on my #71 in LI).
Apparently the main photographer had tickets to one of the Subway Series games & also went to Manhattan. I just view a number of this photos from LIRR and #7 line. Here is one of the Stardust Red Bird
Also lots of links to other sites, try it.
Mr t__:^)
Opps, didn't work, must have done something wrong, well try this:
Model RxR of LI
Saw the MRLI 1/2 hour show this past Friday (was at 8 PM on Westbury's Channel 71, i.e. Public Access):
Nice piece inside Stardust dinner
Subway Series: Many shots and interviews at Grand Central Station on #7, shots inside #7, etc.
Also Greenburg model train & toy show at Hosftra Univ.
I recomend that you all view it if you can.
Mr t__:^)
I found three articles that I felt would have interest to some of my SubTalk/BusTalk friends in the Sept/Oct issue of the "trade" Metro Magazine.
This one was written by Transit Transit's Director, Charles Seaton. It's a nice general article that gives the reader a overview of what they try to do & indicates that suits & politations at the highest level in NY seem to like what they are doing since 1994 in an effort to try and provide something of interest to many of the 22 million homes in the area that the program has the ability to reach. I have to agree that most every month I find enough meat in the 1/2 hour eposides to keep my interest.
The article also states that they use a lot of "interns" and employee "volunteers" ... I wonder what Vinny Voltage realy does at the TA ?
The $100,000 budget serves to prove the point that it isn't a full time job for any of the crew we see every month.
Anyhow, Charlie, Andy, Ozzi, Vinny, Theara, Winston & the rest keep up the good work !
Disclaimer: I have nothing to do with TT or T Squared/T2 as they call it internally.
Mr (single) t__;-)
>>>I wonder what Vinny Voltage realy does at the TA ? <<<
Vinnie, in addition to his workshops at the Transit Museum, takes his show on the road and goes out to schools, etc. Promotes safe subway riding, things like that.
Peace,
ANDEE
thurston... i was interested to hear that transit transit is referred to internally as t squared or t2, which has a nice algebraic flavor...
speaking of algebra:
Solve for t:
t2 = 0
I would say that t=0, since any number multiplied by zero equals zero.
Speaking of TT, I'm surprised no one brought up the old West End local.
Don't they all work for the "communitication" division of the TA??
That is what their van said on the side with the TT logo as well.
I like it for the behind the curtian shots of non public areas the do.
Yes, me too. For a subway fan who would love to get down on the tracks, etc. this is a close as most of us can come without doing something wrong or dangerous.
Mr t__:^)
Technically, the TransitTransit crew belongs to the Public Affairs Division of NYCT, which -- most probably -- falls under the Communications Division of the parent, MTA.
BMTman
Yes, a tip of the hat is due to Charles "Charles in Charge" Seaton, and his astute accomplices, Winston, Andy, Stef, et al.
BMTman
As of 11 o-clock The Great War was official over...82 years ago. We need to remember that World War 1 does not get anywhere near the respect it deserved. Every day more veterans of the great war pass away and soon there will be none left. So run down to your local senoir center and get some first hand stories of WW1 before they are forever lost.
And here's a news item:
HALTING TRAINS TO HONOR VETERANS
Canadian Pacific Railway employees will bring all trains across Canada and the United States to a halt at 11:00 local time on November 11, observing two full minutes of silence in honor of those who have served their country in war. The silence will be followed by one long train whistle blast as a railway salute to the nations' freedom fighters.
"Our employees wanted again this year to do something special to pay tribute to the millions of Canadians and Americans who served to protect our freedom," said Rob Ritchie, President and Chief Executive Officer of CPR. "Our hope is that the sound of our train whistles blowing in hundreds of communities in Canada and the U.S. will unite our thoughts in a moment of appreciation for their sacrifices."
This will be the second time CPR has brought its trains to a halt in honor of Canadian and American war veterans on November 11 -- Remembrance Day in Canada and Veterans Day in the U.S. The gesture began last year as a way to mark the final November 11 observation of the century and of the millennium.
"We are now making this an annual salute by the CPR family to Canadian and U.S. veterans of the world wars and other armed conflicts," Mr. Ritchie said. All CPR trains, as well as locomotives in the railway's yards and terminals, will be brought to a full stop in a safe location. There are about 250 trains moving daily on the CPR network. The railway has a fleet of about 1,600 locomotives in road and yard service.
Some 33,127 Canadian Pacific employees served in the last century's two world conflicts alone. Sadly, 1,774 sacrificed their lives. Railway shops were converted into munitions factories and company ships ferried troops and supplies across the oceans. A total of 27 Canadian Pacific ships were lost in the two world wars. "Canadians and Americans stand as free and peaceful people. As the train whistles blow on Remembrance Day and Veterans Day, it will be a reminder that our freedom should never be taken for granted," Mr. Ritchie said.
It's a shame that A) they can't also honor WW1 by name and B) US railroads and/or transit systems can't do the same.
I was misinformed by a co-student as to the date.
Has any one any knowledge of which was the closest Interurban to the NYC metro area . When did it last run? Are there and remmants of it left, stations, cars, barns...
Would the former New York, Westchester & Boston Qualify as an Interurban?
I'd like to see those modeled in "O" gauge . The few photos NYCSUWAY.org are handsome looking cars .
avid
There is such a fine line between an Interurban and a Commuter line.
Many have thought the South Shore (C.S.S.& S.B.)a commuter line, but is most often spoke of as an Interurban. Same with the Illinois Central. I understand that it is not the cars that make the determination but the proportion of city track to suburban track. If that be the case, the NYW&B certainly could be called interurban. The cars don't fit the usual description of interurbans, but neither do the South Shore's.
Joe C.
Actually these two present the disticntion very clearly. The IC "Suburban" service (their terminology) was always designed for worker bees and shoppers headed to the downtown(the steam version preceded the Loop) area although the U of Chicago and associated Hyde Park area also was and is a 'destination'. A small segment of a large railroad, the system after electrification was largely separate from other operations--separate employee timetable, crew lists etc. CSS&SB by contrast was a freight and passenger rr in competition with others for intercity business as far easr as South Bend. In prior years this included promoting summer excursions to the Indiana Dunes, football specials to South Bend for Notre Dame games, and subsidiary bus service to Benton Harbor Michigan. As rail usage for excursions has dried up, it is indeed a commuter operation today, although IIRC still also a freight ROW serving several major online customers (coal, iron ore).
A true electric interurban was a blend of streetcar and passenger train. Like a streetcar, such a train would trundle down streets through the center part of town, then once it reached the outskirts, it would run along a private ROW. The South Shore, the last remaining electric interurban, does exactly that, although its trains no longer run on city streets in South Bend or East Chicago - only in Michigan City, on a single track. A bypass around East Chicago, running parallel to the Indiana Toll Road, was completed in 1956, almost 30 years after ROW was acquired, and street running in South Bend ended in 1970. I still remember when the old Big Orange cars rumbled into downtown South Bend along LaSalle Ave.
I have ridden both those operations in the 1970's. A real treat!
The book, "The South Shore, the Last Interurban" is wonderful and quite informative. Can someone tell me if there is an IC counterpart?
The NYW&B never had street running, always had high level platforms and did use private ROW. I guess it is safe to say it was a true commuter operation.
Joe C.
I have that South Shore book you speak of. It covers the history of that railroad through 1970. The 70s were not a good time for the South Shore. Dwindling ridership and aging rolling stock very nearly brought passenger service to an end; in fact, the parent company at the time, Chessie, petitioned the ICC in 1976 to do just that. To make a long story short, the railroad recovered nicely, earning the nickname "The Little Railroad That Could". New cars entered service in 1982-83, and more were ordered a few years ago.
My aunt was a regular weekend commuter on the South Shore during our last few years in South Bend. In its heyday, the South Shore offered hourly service from South Bend to Chicago; you didn't even have to look at the timetable. If you missed a train, there'd be another one. She says there were times in the mid-60s when she was the lone remaining passenger on the train between Michigan City and South Bend. I rode on it once, a round trip to Chicago on April 1 and 2, 1967, just before we moved to New Jersey.
AFAIK there is no book on IC Electric per se. There IS excellent coverage in Limiteds Along The Lakefront, The Illinois Central in Chicago, Alan R. Lind Transport History Press 1986. Some of the very early photos are amazing--particularly in my mother's South Shore neighborhood before most of the developement occurred. BTW it was my grandfather who sued the IC at the Ill CC to order installation of crossing gates along E. 71st St. On of the pleasures of my youth was standing at the 'raifan door' next to the cab in a string of the old green cars on theexpress, or special tracks. They moved!
Was the defunct ROW ever the subject of a subtalk walk? Could it now even be still walked or has the ROW gone into a mutitude of private ownership? I'm wondering , when it fell , what happened to is rolling stock?
Thanks for the input.
avid
Well, as you know, the Dyre Avenue line is the surviving remnant of the NYW&B. Some parts of the abandoned ROW can still be seen but most are gone now.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
1. If you want close, go to the intersection of Northern Blvd. & Woodside. It's just a couple of blocks away from the G/R stop of "Northern" or take a ride on Queens Surface Q66, it is the successor to the trolley company, NY & Queens County. You'll find a "Waiting Room" ... however there's a Pizza Hut inside. The mini-mall behind is where the trolley barn was.
Seriously the towers of the waiting room, the words "Waiting Room" and the name of the trolley company are still there.
2. Interurban vs. Suburban vs. street cars:
Street cars tend to be lower to the ground to reduce the height of the floor as much as possible ... I've seen disabled folks in Boston trying to get into the Green Line trolleys ... yuk. Interurbans & Suburbans sat higher off the ground. The Interurbans had two features that most of the Suburbans usually didn't ... higher speed, plusher apointments inside, i.e. seats, bath rooms, etc.
The Shoreline trolley museum (plug plug) has some of all three. If you call ahead to make sure extra staff is available I'm sure you could get to see them (the Interurbans don't regularly come out to play). Seashore (plug plug) has one very accessable to customers (Doug took a photo of me standing on the back of one this July). I also got inside (it's a work in progress but the differences are very obvious). Unfortunately they are closed for the season.
Mr t__:^)
There was a fascinating interurban line called the Hagerstown & Frederick Rwy that served portions of Washington & Frederick counties in Maryland and Franklin county in Pennsylvania. My wife rode the cars many times to travel between Thurmont and Frederick Maryland. It seemed to be a trolley, interurban & freight line all rolled into one. Besides railroading the company also generated their own electricity. Railroad operations ceased in the early 1960's. The company continued to generate electricity under the name Potomac Edison.
A book about the operation was published about 30 years ago. It had some of the greatest interurban and trolley pictures you can imagine. The book was called Blue Ridge Trolley. I can't remember the author's name but I seem to recall hearing that it was reprinted recently.
"Besides railroading the company also generated their own electricity."
Minor history lesson!
A bunch of the interurbans were also the local electric power company. The biggest example is Chicago's "Insull empire" where one holding company owned, among other companies:
*Electricity: Commonwealth Edison, Northern Indiana Public Service
*Transit: Chicago Rapid Transit, Chicago City Railways (major component of Chicago Surface Lines)
*Interurbans: Chicago, South Shore & South Bend; Chicago, North Shore & Milwaukee; and Chicago, Aurora & Elgin.
The electric portion of these enterprises most often made the profits that covered any losses from operating the interurban or streetcar systems. While a bunch of the interurbans were killed off by the automobile in the 'Twenties, a bunch survived that period too.
Then came the New Deal, where one of the pet theories on the causes of the Depression was interlocking industries. In those dark days, people readily saw how one portion of a conglomerate COULD bring down the entire enterprise, but they didn't see how diversification also allowed prosperous components of a conglomerate to cover the shortcomings of other portions. Along with stuff like Glass-Steagal (sp?) which forced banks out of the insurance business, one New Deal law effectively forbade holding companies from owning electric utilities and interurban/transit companies at the same time and covering the losses of the latter with the profits of the former. This law became known as the "Death Sentence Law" for its unintended but predictable effect on the interurban industry.
The definition of an interurban can become very blurry. Two great examples are Public Service of New Jersey and the Eastern Massachusetts Street Railway. Both of these companies provided local urban service, suburban service and interurban service, all with the same cars. In this case, the definitions are:
Urban: All service within the same built up area.
Suburban: Service provided from a less densely popukated area to a built up area.
Interurban: Service provided between two or more built up areas passing through less densely populated areas.
Gerry
OK, according to the MTA website for this weekend:
-No '7' from the Plaza into Manhattan. To add insult to injury, express only Manhattan-bound from Woodside. (Just what the heck are they DOING on the '7' that seems to knock it out every other weekend?!) This will take effect the next three weekends, including Thanksgiving. With all the extra shopping and tourist volume, this is not the smartest idea.
-All trains running express Manhattan-bound Roosevelt to QP; no service 65th through 36th.
-All 'R's from Queens being turned at 34th.
-All 'N's from Queens being turned at Canal.
-63rd Street/Roosevelt Isle/Queensbridge served only by infrequent shuttle down Broadway to 34th. Sixth Avenue connection broken.
A good weekend to avoid the Queens Boulevard/53rd Street corridor, which will be packed either way with refugees from the '7'. There's also sure to be confusion at the inbound Roosevelt platform, what with trains crossing in front of each other and people reversing direction for the bypassed stops.
Also a good weekend not to get the Queens-bound 'N' at Times Square or Lexington, which will also take up the slack from the truncated '7'. With no 'R' below 34th, the uptown 'N' will be bearing the full load through SoHo, the Village and Flatiron.
Staying off the '7' altogether is imperative, between heavy transferring volume at 74th, displaced local riders turning around at Woodside, and utter confusion at the Plaza.
I promised my son we'd do PATH tomorrow, so it looks like the only good way to do it is park at Ditmars, and take the 'N' to 34th for PATH. We were planning to return to WTC in order to get a requested gift (wife's birthday) at Warners. There's no service at Cortlandt, but no way am I taking the '2' or '3' up to Times and try to squeeze on the 'N' THERE! We could walk a block over to Fulton/Broadway and get an express up to Union Square (FORGET 59th!!), but there's no '5' on Lex this weekend, which would surely overburden the '4'.
Crazy as it sounds, the best thing might be to get the M6 to 6th and Spring, check out the in-sidewalk subway map on Greene between Prince and Spring, and then get the uptown 'N' at Prince. Since it's only the second stop, maybe it won't be too bad. The train will probably be packed by 23rd.
Brooklyn seems to get off pretty light this weekend; closure of Montague is more than compensated by a bonus 'N' running over the Bridge. This is IN ADDITION to the usual 'B' and 'D' service. Lower Bay Ridge does gets shafted with an 'R' shuttle, and outbound West End service is knocked out again, requiring a detour to New Utrecht or Coney.
Bronx loses the through '5' again, which will pack Lex and Lenox. Let's hope affected downtown platforms in the Bronx and uptown platforms along Lex have signs this time. From what I hear, there are few announcements on the downtown '2' or uptown '4' advising people of this. In the past, they've had a special '5' running between 149th/Jerome middle track and Bowling Green to complement Lex '4' service, but this weekend there's only the Dyre shuttle. Guess it's NOT the Mott Haven jughandle they're working on this time.
I know about all these GO's and am going to Manhattan Saturday. I will take the LIRR going, but I don't know what's the best way to get back. I'd probably catch the N at Canal, the beginning, so I can get my own space then transfer to the 7 at QBP.
The 7 train is the equivalent to the N21 bus, it's packed on weekends, especially with migrants from the Jackson heights-Corona area.
And it's gonna spill over to the Queens Blvd IND, so it's gonna be hard to escape the packed conditions. Everytime this 7 train G.O. pops up there is chaos for Queens subway passengers because the 7 is normally packed, now with less service it'll be stuffed. I got enough of these conditions on the N21 bus on weekends. I could take the LIRR back to Great Neck, but then I may not get a seat on the N21.
I wonder if it'll be better if I catch the M60 bus to LGA then the Q48 to Flushing. Or the Q66 at L.I.C.
Then I have the fun ride home on the N21. Last Saturday there were drunk migrants, they were playing with a lighter.
Most city buses don't get so many lowlifes so I'll probably try the M60.
Newsday Page 6-Island briefs
MIGRANTS GET BURNED
Smoking and drinking can really get you in trouble. But a different kind of trouble erupted on an N21 bus going to Glen Cove on Saturday.
Some careless hispanic migrants playing with a lighter, another drinking whiskey, got too close and there was an explosion.
All the garbage littering the floor caught fire. Several passengers, most of them could not speak english, got minor burns.
The bus, 162, had minor smoke damage. Well perhaps the only blessing would be that LI Bus is now overhauling 162 and putting in a new Series 50G engine, which runs alot better than the slow Cummins L10G.
:-O :-O :-O
This is a joke if you don't get it by now!!
Looks like there is good news for the City of Glen Cove. And as you see from the article, they are looking to have a trolley of some sort in their community. Maybe they might consider a trolley bus system instead since since these coaches can maneuver better than regular trolleys on tracks.
http://antonnews.com/glencoverecordpilot/2000/11/03/news/
Sounds like a great idea. Lets hope the NIMBY's don't stomp it out!
As much I hate the sight of it. I thought that I would never see on such a scale as in the 70's and 80's in my life time, but it's coming back slowly. During the last 4 months I saw two #1 trains consisting of R-62a's pulled out of service cause of graffiti. I have also seen 70's and 80's type graffiti on the 2,4,5,N, and D lines. Even with the Zero Tolerance Policy if the graffiti gets worse too many trains will be pulled out of service. I give the MTA credit for keeping up with increased graffiti and I hope that they can continue with the increasing amounts. I am also worried that the R-142 and the soon to be R-143 will be hit too. I hope that the increased graffiti decreases soon, but if this is the beginning of another 70's ad 80's type graffiti movement....there is very little the MTA can do. Even at a fast rate of cleaning there will be trains lined with graffiti.
The MTA has to do what it can. If they don't, it will imply that they've given up. I'd hate to see deja vu all over again, in the words of Yogi Berra.
Talking about deja vu and doing all that it can, Guilliani moving on and a new administration taking over, do you think this will affect the MTA in any kind of way.
A throwback to the 70's and 80's, Crime and graffiti!
Well, it will be another year before there's a new administration in NYC... the mayoral election wasn't this year.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Talking about deja vu and doing all that it can, Guilliani moving on and a new administration taking over, do you think this will affect the MTA in any kind of way.
A throwback to the 70's and 80's, Crime and graffiti!
Crime and graffiti aren't necessarily the big risks. I would presume that enough lessons have been learned from the last couple of decades, that even the most limousine-liberalish politicians will understand the need to keep the subways as safe and clean as reasonably possible. A much bigger risk, in my view, is that a Mayor Mark Green (ick!) would make the city so anti-business that its economy would collapse, which soon enough would have plenty of bad consequences for the subway.
(A much bigger risk, in my view, is that a Mayor Mark Green (ick!) would make the city so anti-business that its economy would collapse,
which soon enough would have plenty of bad consequences for the subway.)
You'd better hope Mayor Mark Green is anti-business. What I really fear is a "pro-business" (at least in his mind) Mayor Green. Sort of like a "pro-business" Mayor Dinkins -- willing to hand out tax dollars to any corporation that comes in the door, provided his social engineers decide it is a "strategic industry." I had to work with Dinkins people on some stuff. If they had their way, the New Media industry would not exist in New York today: it didn't fit their "pro-business" strategic plan, and merely allowed landlords to rent scare space to businesses with fewer "social assets."
Those Dinkins "economists" are out there, just waiting to take power and tell us pro-new bunsiness people to got sit in our cubicles for a few years while they bring back good low skill, high pay jobs.
With no Republican candidate for mayor on the horizon outside of Bratton, it will be interesting to see how an Deomcratic primary with a wide-open mayor's seat goes next year.
The last time it happened, back in 1977 when Beame opted against even trying for a new term, the primary ended up as the opposite of the presidential primaries, where Democratic candidates tend to run left of their positions in the general election. Koch ran to the right of his own congressional record against Bella Abzug, and won in part by promising to bring back the death penalty for certain capital murders.
I would guess if Gore is president, that scenario may play out again, while if Bush is president and Pataki is governor, running to the left (which is where Green will be) would make more sense.
With no Republican candidate for mayor on the horizon outside of Bratton, it will be interesting to see how an Deomcratic primary with a wide-open mayor's seat goes next year.
Of all the predicted candidates, New York probably would be best off which Michael Bloomberg. Having a businessman rather than a career politician as mayor would do the city a world of good.
I hope no one I work with sees this ... Bloomberg is persona non grata at my employer, as his company has "poached" some employees from us :-)
Bloomberg would certainly be better than Green for New York in a business sense, though watching him in his occassional TV appearances he comes across as a tad autocratic, which would make him the Democratic answer to Rudy in more ways than one.
Wonder if anyone will ask the mayoral candidates what they think about a Transit Museum annex in the old IRT City Hall station?
Wonder if anyone will ask the mayoral candidates what they think about a Transit Museum annex in the old IRT City Hall station?
I'd be happy if they'd just reopen the loop.
What is needed is stiffer penalties for those who do this kind of activity. We need a posters/signs placed in the cars saying you pay of the crime with time. Nothing should be tolerated. We should New Yorkers have to put up with this nonsense, when other cities like Philly and Boston get to ride clean free cars and we can't. We are both big cities. What makes NYC push these criminals to do this?.....does any one know that answer?..is it the location that causes some sort of physicological differnces?...
Probably because NYC is a big pit of evil and people can't help but be rude or bad. I think that NYC should be abandonned and turned into some sort of urban museum.
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!, Way to go Mike, I like that one!
We should all lighten up a little. Respect the past without forgeting how it was enjoy the present and not worry so much about the futur.
It's not all that bad.
Thanks again for the good laugh Mike, that felt good.....
I'm obligated under New Jersey state law to bad mouth New York whenever possible.
Must be the bad water or the worse air.
Don't feel bad, Long Island is not much better in places.
wayne
Did it ever occur to you that part of the problem is that the NYC transit system -- unlike most other American cities -- is a 24-hour operation?
BMTman
The R 142's should have some sort of security system, sorta like a metallic substance that can melt away the graffiti.
Even though I thought of graffiti as art, it is still illegal and a pain in the tuchus (if that is the correct spelling) to remove. Here is a compromise; cover the subway cars with that material that advertisers use that covers the buses, except the material should be blank, that way, the artists have canvas, the transit authority could remove it easy, and have it displayed at the art museum (and the TA could make money on the exibit). And a new covering could beused for more artwork. Sounds weird, but it may work.
I'm sorry, but this is the most stupidest idea I've ever heard. Graffiti at least in my eyes are so dispicable and yet you are encouraging it as an art form. You want canvas? Go paint your own home with graffiti, take some photos, and post them on Subtalk so at least I can better understand what the hell you are talking about.
I've gotta say that 99% of the graffiti that was on the old cars was despicable. But sometimes you would see a train come in and one of the "artists" covered the whole side of the train with a beautiful piece of work. One time while I was waiting on a crowded platform during rush hour, I remember seeing on the 2 train going in the opposite direction an entire car which had the skyline of New York City at sunset painted on it. Even the other passengers on the platform were marveling at the piece.
It's just too bad that the artist couldn't find something constructive to perform at the time. Hopefully the man got his act together and decided to paint on canvas instead of the side of a subway car.
As a matter of fact, one or more of those guys "got their acts together" and are now prized muralists. Some of their work can be seen on legal canvas such as Bodega store walls, billboard ads, or as a background element in a rap-video.
I believe one of them even has a gallery in Los Angeles (where graffiti-art is still part of the "youth lifestyle" out there).
BMTman
The recently-created mural memorializing rap artist Big Pun is an example of this. So are a number of other murals in the Bronx, Brooklyn and Manhattan. I saw a nice one on a wall near Eastern Parkway BMT station (beneath it) - funny looking piece, but interesting enough that I took a picture of it. This one had to be done at the behest/request of the business owner; most of the nicer ones are done in this fashion. Check out the ones advertising the auto repair and car services along the #4 line in the Bronx.
wayne
I have a better idea. JAIL, JAIL WORKS Graffiti S*C*U*M who deface MTA property should GO TO JAIL, then work cleaning subway toilets to work off their room and board.
I always thought of graffiti as an artform, too- but only in the appropiate places. I sometimes wish I had enough money to buy a huge retaining wall somewhere and let artists out at it with their best work. It would be a unique type of public art, and when done by the most talented of the artists, it looks amazing.
Grafitti vandals have never stopped tagging subway cars. Unlike the 1970's/early 80's, the MTA doesn't allow tagged cars to remain in service and it is removed quickly. Occasional grafitti is still something you might see, but it will quickly disappear. Zero tolerance is still in effect.
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What I would like to know about the phantom 2nd Avenue subway is what the terminals would be at both ends. That is, if that has been determined. It sounds like a Bronx-Manhattan route, or a Manhattan, Brooklyn route, but then again, it could go to Queens. It seems that after it goes down Second Avenue, whether it comes from the Bronx or from Brooklyn or Queens, it would crowd other lines in the outer boroughs.
#4 Sea Beach Fred:
The 2nd Ave. subway might connect with the Chrystie St. connection at the south sne of the line or the IND Cranberry St. tunnel. There was one plan for the line to continue to Throgg's Neck via Bruckner Blvd.
BMTJeff
It's now about 4:15 PM on Friday and fellow Bus and Sub-Talk poster Todd Glickman is doing the weather on WCBS-AM 880 live from NYC studiios and not from MA
Did I correctly hear Deborah Rodriguez call Todd a "Train Geek" on air before?
Yup, she sure did! And by the way, her co-anchor, Wayne Cabot, IS a train geek too.
You should tell her the correct term is "Railfan" :-)
She also asked if you're going to be in the conductor's cab on Metro North. She revealed that you've been let into the conductor's cab on the LIRR.
As Ralph Kramden would say "Deborah Rodriquez is a BLAAAAABER -MOOOOUUUUUTH !!!
Hey, Todd: is Wayne Cabot into rapid transit/subways, or is he a mainline RR enthusaist?
Good to see you're back on the air live in NYC!
BMTman
Wayne is more into mainline railroading. He lives in Western New
Jersey, and has a line running near his house. He and his son go
train spotting.
Wayne & family came up to the Seashore Trolley Museum last year,
and he did pretty well running our NYC TARS car #631.
That's the 'sister' to our (Branford's) NYC TARS #629!
He picked a good car.
BMTman
Yeah and I'm lurking on SubTalk at the same time! I'm working from WCBS's brand new, all-digital studios on W. 57th Street. It's quite the change from the 1960s technology we left at Black Rock.
I gave a plug to train riding at 5:08, after our Chopper traffic reporter Tom Kaminski said that there were big delays at the airport.
Earlier today I had the good fortune to ride with fellow SubTalker Pelham Bay Dave as he piloted his Redbird along the number 6. And yesterday, I rode with our good friend Bill from Maspeth on the E. All-in-all, a good trip to NYC.
Back to Boston tonight!
You missed a ride on a BMT, Barely Moving Train. Next time look me up, I'm now a hippo mover.
Thanks for the info! I was on the 7 Thursday night and was looking for a garbage train, thinking you were still there.
I'm wearing my World Series T shirt that Brighton Beach Bob sent me. It is quite good looking, black with green and purple. The #7 and #4 trains are heading to their home team's venue. I wonder, though, if the Mets put out their own National League Champions shirt. I'd sure like to have one of those.
I recently passed through Elizabeth Station on the Northeast Corridor Line of New Jersey Transit, and I wondered about the right of way that used to host Jersey Central Trains, especially at the now abandoned station in Elizabeth. What is planned for the right of way through there? Are there other abandoned tracks in the NY/NJ area that could be put to some use if some of us made enough noise about them?
Not much will happen with those tracks because the Newark Bay Lift Bridge was blown up in 1981. The CNJ RoW goes from CP-ALDENE to Elizabethport and then into the Bay. Already the Raritan Line trains provide a 2 seat ride for NY bound passengers, terminating in Newark. The only possible use for the line is to do a sort of Long Island City, LIAR thing where most trains go to Newark and a few trains terminate at Elizabeth. There were some stations that were abandonned between CP-ALDENE and Elizabeth and besides being used for Elizabeth bound commuters, the line could serve these communities that were cut off in the 1960's. However this might put too much pressure on the already packed Corridor Line trains.
One RoW that nobody thinks about is the SIRR line from CRANFORD/CP-ALDENE to St. George. Raritan Line trains could run direct to St. George and then people could connect w/ the Ferry for the ride downtown. Of course the line is single track and would require the Arthur Kill bridge to be fixed up. This might come