PA says bi-state feud is over and cooperation is imminent according to an article in Sunday’s Star-Ledger covering a PA meeting last Thursday. The wish list (not yet approved) includes $1 billion for a new car fleet and signal system for PATH. The to-be-considered list includes contributing $1 billion toward cooperating with other agencies toward a new passenger rail tunnel under the Hudson River to NYP with an extension to Grand Central, a freight tunnel between Brooklyn and S.I. or Jersey City, and extending HBLR over the Bayonne Bridge to connect with SIRT.
(PA says bi-state feud is over and cooperation is imminent)
The PA assumes that NYC will once again roll over and get screwed when Giuliani is gone. Unless Mark Green is elected, don't count on it. DCP just got through writing up a mini-report follow up to the 1995 report, blasting the regional equity of the PA.
(PA says bi-state feud is over and cooperation is imminent)
The PA assumes that NYC will once again roll over and get screwed when Giuliani is gone. Unless Mark Green is elected, don't count on it. DCP just got through writing up a mini-report follow up to the 1995 report, blasting the regional equity of the PA.
NYC's shift away from traditional liberalism has a long of politicians toting up the balance sheet on what NYC pays to, and what NYC gets from, higher levels of government. It ain't pretty. Unless the Daily News goes out of business, they can expect to get their feet held to the fire on this issue.
The PA assumes that NYC will once again roll over and get screwed when Giuliani is gone. Unless Mark Green is elected, don't count on it. DCP just got through writing up a mini-report follow up to the 1995 report, blasting the regional equity of the PA.
NYC's shift away from traditional liberalism has a long of politicians toting up the balance sheet on what NYC pays to, and what NYC gets from, higher levels of government. It ain't pretty. Unless the Daily News goes out of business, they can expect to get their feet held to the fire on this issue.
A "shift away from traditional liberalism"?? In what alternative universe? NYC is among the most liberal places in the United States by nearly every possible measure. Its once-in-a-generation support of a Republican mayor - a liberal Republican, at that - doesn't change matters.
As far as the Port Authority's regional equity is concerned, my reaction is a big yawn. NYC residents have got to start thinking regionally rather than in their hick-town parochial manner.
(A "shift away from traditional liberalism"?? In what alternative universe? NYC is among the most liberal places in the United
States by nearly every possible measure. Its once-in-a-generation support of a Republican mayor - a liberal Republican, at
that - doesn't change matters. )
In the past, as long as a policy was consistent with liberal principles -- more government spending to address national problems -- New Yorkers were unlikely to worry about their share of the spending, or the taxes. This applied to NY conservatives as well -- they favored defense buildups that shifted money elsewhere. That's not true anymore.
(As far as the Port Authority's regional equity is concerned, my reaction is a big yawn. NYC residents have got to start thinking
regionally rather than in their hick-town parochial manner.)
NYC politicians have thought regionally and nationally for a long time, in their pursuit of broader power. And NYC has been drained accordingly. Those elsewhere have pursued their local self interest. It's time for this to stop.
1655: Broken door window.
1775: One door would open seconds after the rest of the doors on the train open.
5336: Another door window broken. This time, tape was applied to the window.
What is funny about these three cases is that all of these doors were in motormans car. Shouldnt the cars be taken out of service???
3Train#2154Mike
If the window is completely shattered, that might be the case and you send the car to the shop. The glass may be available at the terminal so a quick changeout is possible.
-Stef
A slow door is nothing unusual, since many cars are linked, taking the train out of service would tie up 4 of 5 cars. Something like this should be caught and fixed on the next inspection. Here in Boston, totally inoperable door panels were allowed to stay in service for many years, though not in recent times. I seem to recall similar situations in NYC.
Broken glass is a different story, here the determining factor is whether the damage endangers passengers' safety. If yes the train should be taken out of service until repaired or repaired at a terminal as Stef indicated. Otherwise that too can wait until the next scheduled inspection. Remember that these use laminated glass so the damage is often confined to the outside.
I once remember being on a 6 train that had to be taken OOS because the rear window shattered by some unknown cause. Clearest railfan window I've ever seen! :-)
Does anyone know when they will have the Croton-Harmon open house?Any info will be appreciated.
Subb
If they are having one this year, I'm sure we would know the date by now since they usually have it in October. And it does cost the MTA money, and there wouldn't be anything much new from last year. So I wouldn't bet on one for this year.
With all of the discussion over the fact that now, only the F will use 63rd street b/c of the bridge flip service plan next year and the B and D terminating on the express tracks, forcing all 6th ave trains thru service to be local. The original 63rd st service plan was to have the V go from 179th street to 2nd ave & Houston street or church ave via Full Queens and 6th ave expresses, and the Q returning to Bway, extended to Forest Hills via 63rd st. Now the V will be local from Forest Hills to 2 ave via 53rd street and 6th ave local.
What confuses me is the following: The whole reason why the 63rd street connector was built was to provide relief off of the Queens Boulevard Line. Now, with only the F and no Q’s using 63st starting next year, I very much doubt that it will enormously help relieve congestion on Queens Boulevard. Plus, Queens Boulevard riders will still have an absence of 6th ave express service. All of the service changes would be a little less confusing and would make more sense if the MTA decided to do this:
B: Bedford Pk Blvd or 145st to 2ave/Houston St; 6th ave express, CPW local
D: 205th St to 2ave/Houston St; 6th ave, CPW local
F: current service
N: Bway express via bridge
Q: Forest Hills-71ave to Coney Island via Bridge, Brighton exp, Bway exp, Queens exp
S: Extended to Brighton Beach, local stops(transfer to Q at Prospect Park)
V: 179th Street to Church Ave; Queens exp, 6th ave express
W: current service plan
-Mike
I think MTA's main goal is to force some QB express riders to use local trains. Especially eith their plan there is no point to switsh from local to exp at Queens Plaza.
Arti
good plan, exept the b, and d should have different southern terminals to avoiud conjestion, maybe send the d to essex street.
You make no mention of the E, you say the F would have current service. Stop right there. The Queens Blvd express tracks are saturated with trains as it is between Queens Plaza/36th St. and Continental. Now you want to add the V & Q to the exprress tracks to make 4 lines on the express tracks! What about the local track? Just the R? This is the most absurd and dumb plan by a SubTalker I've ever seen. Don't take this personally, but come on! And to add insult to injury, you want the Q to terminate at Continental which would add to the congestion on the express tracks as trains are discharged there and crews are relieved! I think you have to go back to the drawing board!
They should make the Q terminate at Jamaica Center
Jamaica Center has limited capacity. I don't thin it could handle more than the current rush hour E.
Arti
Well, the original plan was to make the E local anyway, so it would only be three trains on the express tracks, and two on the local. It's not a dumb plan, just the original idea. There was a similar situation in the late 80's, on the 4th ave line in brooklyn. There was the B,M,and N on the express tracks,and only the R going local
If it's your plan or someone elses original plan, it still ain't gonna work! So we have the E (only 1 route can go to Jamaica Center due to the terminal layout), local all the way, and it has to contend with the R discharging & crew changes at Continental. And Manhattan bound, as it comes in on the local track at Queens Plaza, it has to squeeze between the F & V which come in on the express track. And the Q, which is express thru Queens, will delay the F & V at Continental as it also discharges passengers and changes crews. I can see it now: a Q arrives at Continental on the express and an R arrives on the local at the same time of which it is the last stop for both delaying trains behind it on both the local & express tracks. And the E goes off at Van Wyck Blvd. so you have to swing the F or V over to the local at 75th Ave. It just looks worse all the time! Whatever happens, all local service must terminate at Continental and all express service must continue on to Jamaica Center or 179 otherwise you will have dismal on time performance and customer complaints.
Also look at the track map on this site and you's realize that according to your plan all 6th Ave services have to merge to local tracks at some point. That would be impossible.
Arti
How about this instead- Manhattan Bridge Construction
Queens Blvd- During Construction
F: 179 Street to Coney Island (via Queens Blvd Exp, 6th Avenue Local, Culver Local)
E: Jamica Center-Parsons/Archer to World Trade Center (via Queens Blvd Express, 8th Avenue Local)
Q: 71 Avenue to Coney Island (via Queens Blvd Exp, Broadway Exp, Birghton Exp)
R: 71 Avenue to Bay Ridge 95 Street (via Queens Blvd local, Broadway Local, 4th Avenue Local)
V: 179 Street to 2nd Avenue (via Queens Blvd local, 6th Avenue Exp or local)
CPW and other lines
D: 205 Street to 34 Street (via Bronx loc/ exp, CPW express)
B: Bedford Pk Blvd or 145 Street to 34 Street (via bronx local, CPW local)
C and A- Service Normal
Christopher Rivera
Franklin Avenue Shuttle- Franklin Avenue to Brighton Beach (Brighton Exp)
With all due respect, the Franklin Ave. shuttle is more or less permanent the way it is now, especially after rebuilding. Stations along the shuttle can only accommodate 2-car trains of 75-footers, and four cars is the minimum requirement everywhere else.
It seem's that the T.A. can't realy figure out what to do with the ''F'' and the ''V'' lines.Sending the F through the 63rd street connector will basically do what has always happened with route changes, IT WILL CONFUSE,DISRUPE and most likly make a few people MAD!
I can't think of many riders who would benefit from 6th Ave Express service to or from Queens. The major destinations are 57th, 47-50, 42nd, and 34th. The 6th Ave line doesn't go to the downtown business area, and those riders who are headed there would already be taking the E. 6th Ave express service only helps riders to and from Brooklyn to reach midtown.
-Hank
"What confuses me is the following: The whole reason why the 63rd street connector was built was to provide relief off of the Queens Boulevard Line. "
When they planned the 63 St. Connector, it was to connect to an outdoor track running on the LIRR ROW that would skip the entire Queens Blvd. Subway tunnels up to around Union Tpke (maybe). But it never got built, and the 63 St. tunnel sat around half-completed, connecting nothing to nowhere, so they had to think of something and, rather than figure out how to connect it to Queens Plaza, they have made that ridiculous 36 St.-Qns connection, and now we all have to live with it, useless as it is.
Since it seems to be foregone conclusion that the Redbirds' storied history is about to become passe, I was wondering how many of them will be carted off to the transit museum, and whether they will be utilized for fan trips in the future. I enjoyed riding the #7 train out to Shea during my trip to New York in '99 and found the riding the reds a nice experience. BTW, how many of each discarded types are preserved?
10/01/2000
Fred,
Well you can count on one pair of ACF built Redbirds (R26 or R28) which may be acquired by the Illinois Railway Museum. Nothing concrete yet, they are raising money for the acquisition and shipment. It seems I.R.M. is hot for anything ACF built.
As far as other museums, I doubt Branford (Shoreline) will go for amy Redbirds. Unless they are hot for an R-33 single to keep #6688 company.
Bill "Newkirk"
The first R33WF, # 9306 is preserved at the Transit Museum in NYC
I have noticed so many pictures of our subway trains were taken by a person named Joe Testagrose. Anyway of contacting him. I was hoping to purchase some old photos of his----if they were available, or if he sold them. Needless to say, you can guess which train pictures I would be interested in.
He sells his photos at the ERA meetings. You can write him at joet@nycsubway.org (just an alias to his real email accounts)
-Dave
TWU has learned that Transit plabns on closing 90 part-time booths and cutting back numerous others.
There are no lay-offs but long lines at open booths, and sweatshop conditions for your Station Agent will result. We have tons of adminmistrative work to do in a booth such as count money and make deposits at set times plus paper repoprts to do!
Already we have to wait on a customer, do paperwork for 2-3 minutes, back to next customer, back to paperwork, etc. till we get it all done.
Another issue" If we wind up short due to pushing out too much money then we have to pay- this could be due to our error or a customer taking advantage of long lines and threats of complaints against us if we dont giv ethem proper change (when they are trying to scam us. I have had booths--thnakfully slow enough., where a customer triesd the I gave you a 20 and not a 10 routine. We close the window and count the money-- Yes, I came up even!
I have been in some stations (thankfully not to work) where the line ahs reached street level! SOme customers have seen me entering a station and actuaslly stopped me to try to get a token- I do help when I can by asssisting with MVM or travel help or assisting qwith swipe problems.
I can give any of you a copy of the list but will not post here. COntact your local politicans.
Dave- this is subway related. Subtalkers could be in that long line which has actually reached street level at some stations!
Even Times Square, Penn Station, Herald Square and Grand Central will have cuts!
(I will not post more on this subject.)
TWU has learned that Transit plabns on closing 90 part-time booths and cutting back numerous others.
There are no lay-offs but long lines at open booths, and sweatshop conditions for your Station Agent will result. We have tons of adminmistrative work to do in a booth such as count money and make
deposits at set times plus paper repoprts to do!
I would presume that these booth cutbacks will occur at MVM-equipped stations. As far as I know, NYCT's eventual plan is to use MVM's for all fare sales and reassign station agents to a customer service-type role. What you're describing sounds like an early step in this process. Sure, it will be a big change for station agents (and riders), and some disruption will result. But change is pretty much a constant today, and the best anyone can hope for is that disruption is kept to a minimum.
And in any event, be glad that NYCT is preserving all the station agents' job. No private-sector employer would do the same.
I agree with Peter on all counts.
Mr t__:^)
>>> TWU has learned that Transit plans on closing 90 part-time booths and cutting back numerous others. <<<
I hate to say I told you so, but in responding to your post on September 19th in which you said "MVMs will never replace us!" my response included the following:
"I predict that sometime in the future in the less busy stations there will be courtesy telephones installed next to token booths with signs saying ‘Pick up telephone for information when Agent is not on duty.' (And several years after that none of the phones will work.) The hours that agents are present will be cut back and the total number of station agents will be reduced."
I certainly did not expect it to happen so soon, and there is no need to apologize about your post, it is clearly transit related.
Tom
Around 1:30 pm today, someone from TWU Local 100's "New Directions" faction was handing out flyers about this on street level outside of the Steinway Street (Queens IND, Local) Station's 34th Avenue entrance/exit. Basically, it gave examples of why this particular part-time entrance should not be cut back and urged users of the entrance to call the MTA field manager for the station and local politicians.
In this particular part of the city, it would make sense for that entrance to be kept open more often, rather than being closed for much of the day. Both the north and south street-entrances to Steinway are over a 10-car train (say, of R-46's)-length apart, and, as is typical of IND stations, it has a rather long walk on the mezzanine between the steps to the street and the steps to the platforms on the so-called "main" entrance near Broadway. So, for an elderly person or a mama with a stroller to have to walk over 10 car-lengths, or one city block (and I mean the long blocks, not the short ones) out of her way and them back-track at street level poses a bit of an inconvenience. Remember, Steinway Street is a crowded shopping thoroughfare, and is not as easily navigable as the quieter streets in Queens.
[As a matter of fact, there are a plethora of station entrances which have been closed and actually walled-off on the Queens IND, which must drive straphangers who use the line crazy. I had counted myself lucky to be a user of the Steinway Street stop with its 2 still functioning (one barely) entrances. Looks like I counted too soon.]
Furthermore, Steinway is an unusual stop in that at this point, the line is in mid-S-curve, having veered left off Northern Blvd. to stop at Steinway St. before veering right underneath Broadway on its way to rejoin the express trains 3 stops later.
So essentially, the Steinway Street stop is much like 2 separate stops, which could be called "Steinway/Broadway" and "34th Avenue," and it conceivably would have been 2 stops if it had been an IRT line. I don't know about the other cut-backs, but both of these entrances serve enough of the neighborhood to be open for most of the day, IMHO. In other words, there are a lot of residences surrounding the 34th Avenue entrance, to the east, west and south, which should be well-served by that subway stop and entrance. The north-south blocks in Queens are loooooooooong, and this is a rare occasion when the Queens IND is travelling north/south rather than east/west.
per official bulletin the cards will go on sale at 7am on 10/9/2000. There will be two versions:
"We Got World" [sic] and
"Businessfirst Kicking it CEO"[sic]
The bulletin does not specify which booth will receive which version.
Here is the list- **stations are N O T grouped**
96-B,C,1,2,3,9
50-C,E,1,9
34-A,C,E,1,2,3,9
W4- A,C,E,B,D,F,Q
Chambers- A,C,E,1,2,3,9 (NOT on sale at Park Place)
53/7-B,D,E
28-N,R,1,9
23-N,R
14-N,R,L,4,5,6,1,2,3,9
Cortlandt- N,R
Whitehall-N,R
103-1.9
42-1,2,3,9
Christopher-1.9
Franklin Street-1,9
Wall- 2,3,4,5
Bowling Green- 4,5
NOte:
1- A station might not receive the cards even though they are supposed to get the cards.
2- A station might get the cards even though they are not supposed to. Either due to deliveries or transfers by supervision.
3- Go to the full-time booth at the statioon to get the best chance of getting the card.
4- MVMs- may or may not get the cards. We have nothing to do with feeding the MVMs.
Maybe they'll still be available on the 23rd. W. 4th St. will be my home station during my stay in the city, which is where I've bought my one-week passes the last few years.
I rode the LIRR to Montauk today and got a double-decker both ways. A conductor told me all the old diesels are gone! I wish I could have ridden them one more time. One of my fondest memories of rail travel is coming back from Montauk on one of those old ones at six at night in winter. Going through the dark, peacefulness of Long Island, the crossing guard bells. (SNIFF)
By the way, can those doubles go through the east river tunnel, and can they also run on electric power?
My site
The old cars have been gone since the spring.
The double-deckers can (and do) go through the East River tunnels, but
only when pulled/pushed by 500-series DM-30 (dual-mode) engines.
Currently, there is only one round-trip per weekday on each of the
OB, PJ, and Speonk branches. Last I checked, there were no through
services (i.e. no "Change at Jamaica" trains on these brances) on weekends.
The 400-series DE-30 engines are diesel power only.
There are 2 PJ direct trains each direction. Afternoons, its the 4:19 and the infamous 4:49, the pioneer of double-decker travel on the LIRR.
My last ride in the 'old' equipment was in a power pack (#161P) from Jamaica to LIC. The line is very interesting but the ride was forgetable. Although I never rode the GP-38s of the old equipment I perfer the FL-9s
Somehow I never thought of the GP-38s as "old equipment". The Alcos perhaps, the C-liners for sure. But then even I am not old enough to remember any steam on the LIRR.
Elias
I think they are talking about the 1955 ex-MU coaches when they say "old equipment", not the locomotives.
Just this time last year, the Electric Railroaders Assoiciation ran a fantrip putting the old cars through their paces one final time on three LIRR branches. You can take a look at the trip here:
http://www.forgotten-ny.com/SUBWAYS/Diesel/diesel.html
And we're doing it again this year with Metro-North FL-9s! See Dave's "Upcoming Events" for more information...and thanks, Dave, for posting it.
David Ross
Director
New York Division
Electric Railroaders' Association, Incorporated
For those that don't know, the ERA does some real nice fantrips, not the cheepest trip you ever took, but if you want a long ride on equip. that is just about to go bye bye, you won't be disappointed. They also do tours, I went on one to Coney Island. Their monthly meeting are very good too .... and I'm not even a member (yet).
They did a D-Type trip thru the streets of Brooklyn, I think in 1976, oh I wish I had been a railfan then.
Mr t__:^)
They did a D-Type trip thru the streets of Brooklyn, I think in 1976, oh I wish I had been a railfan then.
I was a railfan in 1976 but didn't know of the ERAs existence at that time. Wish I did.
--Mark
I just wish you hadn't scheduled the trip on the same day as the Harmon open house! 8-(
Actually, the reverse happened. We scheduled this trip back in the Spring, and Metro-North didn't announce the date of the Open House until very recently.
Unfortunately, we will not be able to stop at the Open House during the fantrip; the timing is wrong.
At this time, we are far short of the break-even point for this trip, but it is DEFINITELY going to operate, even if it loses money. However, if it loses a great deal of money (a distinct possibility, as it is a very expensive trip to operate), we will have to seriously consider whether we want to (or are fiscally able to) charter trains in the future. Bottom line, everyone: We run fantrips to raise money for the club; the dues don't come close to meeting our costs. Chartering a bus and taking people somewhere is much less expensive than chartering a train. If you want the New York Division-ERA to keep chartering equipment, GO ON THE TRIP!!! The information is in the "upcoming events" section of this site. If you don't think your money will reach us in time, show up at Grand Central on the day of the trip with $60 in hand (and a completed form if you have it).
David Ross
Director
New York Division
Electric Railroaders' Association, Incorporated
I rode the LIRR to Montauk today and got a double-decker both ways. A conductor told me all the old diesels are gone! I wish I could have ridden them one more time. One of my fondest memories of rail travel is coming back from Montauk on one of those old ones at six at night in winter. Going through the dark, peacefulness of Long Island, the crossing guard bells. (SNIFF)
It's possible that the old diesels were better in their younger years. But in the last couple of years of their use on the LIRR, which is when I rode them, they were dirty, decrepit, and utterly devoid of even the slightest iota of charm. They probably should have been scrapped no later than the mid-1980's.
I would gladly pay money for the opportunity to take a cutting torch to one of them.
10/01/2000
With exception to a couple of GP-38's that went to the New York and Atlantic, I don't think any of the GHP-38's were scrapped. Last I heard, they were being refurbished to be available for a lease pool. I'd like to see the pix of those units in different paint.
Bill "Newkirk"
Why on earth would you be shedding a tear for the LIRR Diesel Coaches?
They were the filthiest, most vile-smelling excuses for railroad cars that I have ever seen. I for one do not mourn the passing of these repugnant, repulsive rattletraps. Glad to see 'em GO GO GO GO GOODBYE! Phew! Phooey!
BTW the "New Car" smell seems to have worn off the new bilevels. They're pretty nice. I can actually fall asleep in them.
wayne
Well I happened to love those old diesel trains. True they weren't in good shape but I loved to hop on one of those old coaches on a cold winter day. They had the best heat! And to ride in the first car(hopefully from Jamaica) closest to the engine and to hear the horn blasts and the little up and down motions at every grade crossing. And to ride on the platform during rush hour on a summer day with the wind whipping at your face while holding a cold beer. You can't do that with the double-deckers. I personally will miss those old guys very much. It's times like this that I hate change.
More of us will think of them favorably as the bad memories begin to fade. The funny thing is that so many of them were grabbed up by many RxRs & museums, e.g. NY & Atl has one, the Steam Engine 39 has two, Cape Cod got some, etc. ... I'm talking of coaches vs. pwr-packs.
Mr t__:^)
Since about 1994 there have been 3 ex-LIAR FA/FB power packs sitting at Winslow Jct. They might have lost a few, but they were in such sorry shape and butt ugly to boot. They were painted in several shades of olive and rust and used plywood to cover various openings. How the bissiest railraod in the country could use such piss poor equipment was beyond me. It also shows one how in this era of preservation, it is hard for any old piece of equipmnent to get scrapped. Most of the NJT DL&W MU's survive in tourist duty as will the powerpacks and Diesel coaches and possibly one day the FL-9's and SPV's and ACMU's
Recently one of these Power Packs was spotted in Quebec along with some of the x-LIRR coaches in use by a tourist line there.
(photo in Sept. RailPace)
Mr t__:^)
Recently one of these Power Packs was spotted in Quebec along with some of the x-LIRR coaches in use by a tourist line there.
Those poor tourists!
[Those poor tourists!]
I'm sure the tourist railroad renovated them and cleaned them up, especially the windows. Then they wouldn't be so bad as they were nice cars back when they were electric MU's.
Actually, when they were electric m.u.'s, they weren't that bad. It's after they were converted to diesel-hauled push-pull equipment that they started their downward decline (which was more like, over a cliff instead of a decline....)
I remember riding the LIRR in my youth....the WORST cars were the 800-series "P70" cars (unlike Pennsy's P70's). The ex-Lackawanna (8506-8513) and ex-Reading (8514-8516) and ex-Delaware & hudson (8517-8522) cars were also rolling piles of crap held together only by forty coats of paint.
The P54/MP54's weren't even that bad, and to ride in the 1955-1956 P-S stock was like living in the lap of luxury.
And when the 30 MP75 cars came along in 1963, we thought we were on the railroad to heaven!!!
does anyone have a historical roster?
I've posted rosters of the LIRR equipment from various era (late 1957, mid-1960's) etc. on here last year.
Sorry, but I am NOT going to re-type it all again.
I never understood why they changed the seats on the old coaches to M-1 types. I guess it was for unifomity. The old LIRR seats were so comfortable, you could just sink right into them, and the reversible seats were far better. You always had a front facing seat and if you wanted to face each other (such as a large group or if you had a card game) you could do it anywhere in the car, not just by the doors.
The M-1 seats on the diesel coaches - you could sink right into THEM too; only problem was your @$$ would go right through them!
wayne
Were the reversibles like the ACMU ones? The 'flip' or 'slide' style (flip has one seat back, slide has 2, slide is used by NJT and ACMUs 1150-1186). What color?
Just trying to get a mental picture.
They were slides, and they were a deep green in color.
Older ones had a handle on the isle side,
I am not sure that the newer ones did.
The all had little metal springy things to hold the ticket or seat check.
I would flip them all as I exited the train at NYP.
For some reason this did not seem to bother the trainman. : )
Elias
Those seats would also be referred to as "walkover" seats. You'd walk down the aisle and flip them over. Trainmen were supposed to do it at end terminals, so you were actually helping them do a lot of work.
10/02/2000
I was told that some made there way down to Georgia for some tourist RR to Stone Mountain. I was told that the end vestibules were cut out and doors removed to make them like an observation car.
Also back up here in NY & NJ the New York & Susquenhanna RR. They have several painted burgundy with end diaphrams. One car I saw didn't have the M-1 type seating. Also every other window was openable.
Bill "Newkirk"
Not to sound ignorant but what exactly is a power pac.
A section added to diesels that has no controls. It's just a big engine. Increases the power of the engine.
Peace,
ANDEE
It's NOT a section added to diesels that have no controls. It also does NOT increase the power of the engine.
The "Power Pack" is the name given to LIRR's fleet of Alco FA-1 and FA-2 locomotives as well as a handful of EMD F-7/9 units. They were called that, because they provided "Head End Power" to the cars on the train. The cars depended on an outside electrical source for the electricity for their heat, lights, air conditioning and doors.
LIRR's fleet of "Power Pack" locomotives were, in fact, fully equipped locomotives when they were built (all for other railroads). They were converted to "Power Packs" in the 1970's by removal of their traction motors, and changing the electrical systems so that the diesel engine inside would generate the electricity needed for the cars. The controls were left in place, so that by wiring the passenger cars, the "Power Packs" could control a trainwith a locomotive at the other end providing locomotion. (It did not necessarily have to be at the other end....could be anywhere in a train as long as the multiple-unit cables were connected.)
In later years, the large diesel engines were removed from almost all the Alco engines; a smaller diesel engine was installed which drove the generators. The EMD F-units made into "Power Packs" on the LIRR were always this way on the LIRR. One of the FA-2's was converted to a power car for the original bi-level train when it was hauled by GP38-2's; it received major carbody modifications so that it would blend in with the bi-level cars and lost its control capabilities in the process. (Someone said "They neutered it" -- very appropriate!)
Thank you for the clarification...
BTW what are those sections that I was thinking of, that are added to diesels, called?
Peace,
ANDEE
Cabless B-Unit Boosters.
If you remember the LIRR diesels they had a GP-35 type engine on one end and an old Alco FA/PA on the other end. The FA was just a "power pack" for the passenger coaches. When the engineer sat in it's cab, the motive power came form the other end.
Mr t__:^)
Power packs were old gutted cab units that were fitted with a HEP engine for train heat and lighting. Some of the coaches had their own diesel motor.
Right.
The 26-27-2800 series cars were the push-pull cars which required head-end power. These were converted from the 2500, 2600, and 2800 series m.u. cars.
The 2901-2980 "P72" cars had their own Detroit Diesel and generator underneath each car and did not require Head End Power. These cars also did NOT have the m.u. cabling added either.
In Quebec? Sacre Bleu!
You cant make a silk purse out of a sow's ear. PHEW - Diesel coaches!
A couple times the conductors enlisted my help with the doors, once with the manual doors and once with the automatic. Gave up on those stupid control boxes (how the hell do you work those!) and ended up keying open one door at a time.
Yup, brand new equipment at your service. Just like I said in my prior post, I hate anything new. At least with the old diesels, if one door was stuck, you just walked to the other door right next to it.
Hey, Tod. Are you the guy from the radio? News 88?
Yup.
But it's Todd. (Mom & Dad gave me that name.)
And it's WCBS 880. (Infinity Broadcasting Corp. just changed the "slogan" from Newsradio-88 to WCBS 880. But let's let that thread run out on the New York Radio Message Board, not here.)
Before I bother taking the trip, is Newark running the new equipment yet?
No.
It's worthwhile to ride it again with the PCC's.
10/02/2000
I rode the Newark City Subway this past Saturday (9/30). I thought this line was closed on weekends.
Bill "Newkirk"
Why would you want to go out of your way to ride Kinkisharyos when you can ride a real live 1948-model PCC, one of the last of the breed?
If you'd like to ride on the new equipment, it is on the HBLR, not a bad ride in and of itself.
wayne
'cause theyare ADA and the daughter-unit uses a chair.
But most of the Newark City Subway stations are not chair acccessable.
When I rode it 2 years back, I was told upgrading to full ADA was in process. And, since the daughter-unit in question was raised correctly, she is interested in transit and mainline trains (many years earlier when not a chair user, she was on BART on openung day!)
In that case, I recommend that you enter and leave the system at Franklin Avenue (or the new terminus when it opens), where the platform is at street level and accessable, not at Penn Station, where, AFAIK, it's stairs down and escalator up. (I don't know what the operator will do when you get to Penn Station. Everybody's supposed to get off before the car goes around the loop. I guess they'll have to let you ride around.)
If I were asking this question, it would only be to see if the PCC's are still running. What's of interest on the NCS, besides the PCC cars?
[What's of interest on the NCS, besides the PCC cars?]
- Part of the line runs on a canal bed
- Ramps that lead to the street are still visable
- Street crossing, one spot, great photo op
- Maint facility between the tracks at Newark
Mr t__:^)
Not to mention the new connection to the "real" railroad, the new maintenance facitlty, and the new stations at the end of the line.
The old Morris Canal bed, to be exact.
Take a look at the "Field Trip" report from June of 1999. There were two trips made there by SubTalkers. You'll be surprised how good a shape the PCCs are in ... and how fast they go.
Mr t__:^)
When I boarded the shuttle train at Grand street it smelled like smoke, as did the Grand street station. Arrived at Broadway-Lafeyette to see track workers on the northbound express track, and the station had visible smoke.
Apparently a small track fire broke out somewhere near the station, I saw them bringing fire extenguishing canisters back up the stairs.
Also earlier saw on the Broadway (southbound) line around 14th 3rd rail w/no cover. I had to wait awhile for the F at Broadway-Laf, and it was pretty crowded. I got off at 34th.
At 34th I got on the N to go back. A nice beautiful train of brightliners (R32's) pulled up. The trip through the 60th street tube was very fast, we reached 53mph according to the speedometer.
Then I changed to the 7 at Times Square and was lucky to get the window again. I'll sure miss that when the Redbirds leave the Flushing line, but I have a feeling they are still going to be around for a little while.
Got to Flushing to see the Wendy's stripped of it's sign, and to my suprise, several letters begging Wendy's to reconsider.
Very busy place, and Wendy's is "shooting themselves in the foot" by loosing money by not re-opening the store.
There was an editorial in the Daily News posted, where the writer states exactly what I have said. By closing the Flushing Wendy's permanently, they are giving the killers the satisfaction that they have left their mark, and in a way promoting anarchy.
Since I'm a frequent user of the 7 line and go through Flushing all the time, it's damn inconvenient for me, not only depressing.
You can bet I'm gonna make alot of noise to the brass at Wendy's so they come back to Flushing. If they don't, then they obviously don't know how to do business (to make money).
If they reopened that Wendys, they may be hard pressed to find people to work there.
Heard tonight at the Bayside LIRR station:
Automated: "The Westbound train to NY scheduled to depart at 5:56 was last reported at Great Neck as ON TIME"
Well, thank you mr. lirr computer but I usually expect to hear those announcements only when the train is delayed... Are they trying to actually be helpful or something?
They've had those announcements on the Babylon Branch for years. I think they were trying them out with plans to expand systemwide. If you get to the station early enough, you can track your train right up to when it arrives.
Lately, the system has been working pretty well, with one strange twist, though. The last few weeks, while standing on the platform at Rockville Centre at 8:00 AM, the announcement will be made -- "The 8:01 to New York has been reported at Rockville Centre operating ontime". Usually gets lots of confused looks from people on the platform, but the train shows up a minute later.
CG
Lucky for you guys. When I hear that crackle waiting for a train at Islip, my butt cringes for it can mean only one thing, delays. Lo and behold, last time I was at Islip waiting for a train in the hot sun, I heard:
"The train scheduled to leave Patchogue at 4:19, Sayville at 4:25, Oakdale at 4:28, Great River at 4:32, Islip at 4:35, Bay Shore at 4:38 and Babylon at 4:44 is running 45 minutes late."
Needless to say I wasn't singing the praises of the LIRR when I heard that.
When you hear that very long announcement where they announce the departure times at every station along the way, it usually means a late train or a short train.
My favorite announcemet is on an express that originates at Wantagh at 7:48 AM. It comes from the West and turns around at Wantagh. Sometimes, there is an announcement that the trains is operating 33 minutes EARLY!
-- Kirk
I need to take the 6 train to Pelham Station at around 7:10. I'm getting on at 33rd street, and was wondering if the R142 A's are gonna be running.I know one usually comes at 7:08 at 33rd Street. Will ir be running???
Clark Palicka
CEO TrAnSITiNfO
http://www.nyctransitinfo.com
No there should be no R142A's running until after the train comes out of 207 Street shop which will happen 21 days from Monday.
The R142A (7211-7220) should be at 207 St Now.
Can any subtalkers tell me about, or point me in the right direction, to find out about the trolley lines that existed in Staten Island?
I ask because, riding the #78 on Hylan from Tottenville back to the ferry today, I noticed a new bus turnaround at Richmond Avenue. The pavement was new, but it was lined with thr same kind of trolley poles I recognize from the ones that remain in Brooklyn. I remember that spot (SE corner of Richmond and Hylan) as being overgrown as long as I've been going down there, so the old trolley turnaround must have been covered for years before being rediscovered and put to new use...
www.forgotten-ny.com
It was a turnaround, but it's hardly new. Freshly paved is about it. Service on SI ended long before it ended elsewhere in the city. There is at least one trolleybarn left, it's on Arhur Kill Rd, near Armstrong Ave.
-Hank
Speaking of trolley remnants, on McDonald Ave between Kings Highway and Ave S, is a garage with curved trolley tracks leading into it. These tracks connected to those that ran under the Culver El. Any idea what this garage (well, that's what it is now anyway) was when the trolley was operating? Was it a car barn?
--Mark
That was a coal or an oil company. I don't know when the siding was last active, but probably not since the early 1960s. The McDonald Avenue tracks were used until 1978, but the tracks weren't paved over until 1991. The strangest thing is that railroad crossing pavement markings were installed in 1979 - a year after the tracks were abandoned and unusable due to sections being removed near Foster Avenue and Avenue X as part of the Mcdonald Ave street reconstuction.
The tracks on MacDonald Av weren't trolley tracks, they were the tracks of the South Brooklyn Railroad. I remember seeing a small freight or work train pulled by a diesel locomotive going down MacDonald by Gil Hodges Field near the Belt Parkway in the early 70's, years after trolleys were discontinued in NY. Since I thought they were trolley tracks at the time I did a real double take!!!
Actually, the McDonald Av tracks were used by both electric freight trains and the B 50 trolley line. There are lots of pictures of this in the photo archives, both at this site and others.
The trolley quit in 1956, and I believe the electric freight lasted until 1963, when it was deiselized.
For a short time in the early 1960's, TMNY ran a Swedish trolley along McDonald Av with the tacid approval of the City and SBK. This was supposed to be the start of a trolley museum in Brooklyn, with its headquarters located in the Coney Island trolley terminal.
However, Donald Trump's father decided he wanted the terminal land to build Trump Village, and Mayor Wagner then doublecrossed TMNY and shut down the museum idea.
Hey, Bob, thanks for the excellent info. I had heard (and seen some old photos) of that Swedish trolley on Mickey D Ave., but the stuff about Poppa Trump and Wagner was certainly news to my ears!
BMTman
The trolley in question still lives. See http://tmny.org/tmny0079.html.
Could you just imagine a Brooklyn Trolley Museum with its trackage rights running nearly 2/3 the length of McDonald Ave? (sigh)
--Mark
This is at the St. George ferry terminal, Richmond Railways, early 1930's:
(Photo credit: TMNY Collection, catalog #4092)
10/01/2000
On Saturday, I emerged from the LIRR Flatbush Avenue terminal to the street level to find something that shocked me. The ancient long disused headhouse on the small triangular island that abuts Flatbush, Fourth and Atlantic Avenues is GONE !
It must have been recently demolished. This old building was a fare comtrol for the downstairs IRT Subway. There was the name "Atlantic Avenue" chisled on the top. Years ago there was some steel work that was removed that was attached this building which may have been a trolley or bus shelter, but I doublt it had anything to do with the Fifth Avenue "el". Oh well, another piece of history, gone!
KEVIN WALSH, take note!
Bill "Newkirk"
The building was removed from the site for renovation. It has not been demolished.
I hear they want to make it into a bus shelter or something.
Pigs: I've heard it will be used by MTA/NYCT as a Transit Information booth (and perhaps another Transit gift shop) as well as serving as a bus shelter.
BMTman
10/02/2000
[The building was removed from the site for renovation. It has not been demolished.
I hear they want to make it into a bus shelter or something.]
Well I'm relieved, correct me if I'm wrong, wasn't this the only Interborough head house in Brooklyn ? I'm glad it will be restored and play a different role in transit. Had this been a couple of decades ago, it would have been indeed demolished. Now for the million Metrocard question, where was this headhouse moved to ?
Bill "Newkirk"
Bill, I'll try and find out through my sources in the "underground" (sorry about the pun!)
P.S. I just recently signed on with the Erasmus Hall Alumni Association's website. I see you're not there. Get on board, buddy!
BMTman
Bill, have no fear, the old IRT Kiosk will return.
It was flatbedded away for renovations. It is a Historic Landmark and will get some much needed TLC while the triangle it sat on also gets a facelift. The Kiosk will be returned to the site and I'm sure some big civil ceremony (including a ribbon-cutting) will occur to commemorate the event.
BTW, up till the early 80's it was used as a newstand/deli counter.
BMTman
Yeah, sure Doug. Tell the truth, now, you and heypaul have moved it to an undisclosed location.
Peace,
ANDEE
Shhhhussh!
Now, you've let the cat outta the bag!
;-)
BMTman
Check underground near August Belmont's siding under the defunct Hotel Belmont :)
--Mark
It's funny that most of you are looking forward to riding new cars like the R142 or the impending delivery of the new cars for the Newark City Subway. This only means one thing, the old cars go away.
I know that you are all anxious to try something new but most times it means that one of your old "friends" has to say goodbye. I'm missing already those old LIRR diesels and coaches. The redbirds aren't far behind and the PCC's in Newark are endangered. I haven't ridden the R142 but I can tell you this: I HATE IT ALREADY. Do you really think that these R142's are gonna last 38 to 41 years like a redbird? Do you think that these cars will have a better MDBF than a redbird considering all the computers installed on it? What do computers do best? Break down. Do you think a young child will be able to twirl the side sign just to see what was on it on a R142? Face it, all of us used to enjoy playing with the side sign just to see how many stations or lines were on the rollers. Nope, can't do that now. Those have been disappearing even on the redbirds the past few years but there are still a handful left. There is NO shot of doing that on a R142. Just a drab computer screen. Do I have to mention the railfan windows disappearing slowly but surely?
How about those old fishbowl buses. Don't you wish that a few of those were still in TA service? Didn't you love to hop on the back seat which was always hot and open up that last window and if you were lucky it opened up all the way? Same with the old flxibles. Those old fishbowl buses lasted 30 to 40 years. The new shelf life for new buses? 15 to 20 years. How about the old fareboxes that sounded like it was chewing up your coins?
Every few years they came out with a new token when they raised the fare. It gave you something to look forward to. Now you will get the same drab old metrocard whether the fare goes up or not. I believe it was Chris R16 who said that he got to twirl with an old sign with the color coded numbers on the IRT. I used to do it, it was fun! Hey Chris R16! You don't even get different colors on the bulkhead computer sign on a R142 do you? No, just red. Boring. And you can't even play with it.
I might be very nostalgic for a 29 soon to be 30 year old man but I have found the value in old things. And I can say with 100% certainty that I am very glad that I grew up in the 80's as compared to now. Sure I missed the R9's(I don't remember them, I was only 6)and a lot of old wonderful stuff, but I remember playing hooky, riding those old R10's on the GG and playing conductor with the triggers and caps with my friends. Or going on an old R16 on the J and playing with the bulkhead sign to see what old signs were on there like QJ or EE. Even better, clicking down that square railfan window on the R22 and letting the air smack you in the face. Boy, wasn't that fun in the tunnel!! I know that progress has to come our way but they're taking all the fun out of everything. And this just doesn't pertain to just trains and buses either. When we were younger, we had to use our imaginations. Now, a computer screen shows our imaginations to us. That's why the new star wars movie stunk out the joint compared to the old star wars movies. Too many computer graphics and not enough creativity.
Anyway, that's why I hate these new cars. They take away all that was fun with the old cars and they make them very impersonable. Computers control everything now. And that my friend, really stinks.
ZMAN this is one of the reasons why i will be shooting video on all lines served by redbirds this late october!!to preserve the last of it
I totally agree with your post & every thing you said & posted ....
You did not miss a beat anywhere on your post Example the BLUE LINE rail cars here in los angeles are rusting already on the sides of thier bodies & they are only 12 years old !!Your comment on the good old r 22 was RIGHT ON THE MONEY !!! that was a subway car & train
http://photos.yahoo.com/asiaticcommunications
.
i really agree with you, especially with regards to the boring factor and the lack of mystery related to roll signs...
however, i think you were being unfair to the new equipment when you said:
" Do you really think that these R142's are gonna last 38 to 41 years like a redbird? "
be fair... the r-142a's will last forever if properly maintained and redesigned... i think they operated pretty well since they were first put on the road... now the braking system and doors are being redesigned so that they can give another 15 days of reliable service... they just overlooked these systems when they designed them... they were really focused on the automated announcements... that took a lot of time and energy to get straight... this way when a customer falls asleep, he will know immediately where he is by looking at the location screen... this is great progress... so with semi-annual general overhauls, these new cars will provide many many years of reliable service...
think of it... after every g.o., there will be a lot of excitement to ride the cars again and see what major system has been redesigned...
i disagree with you. #1, they are machines,not friends. you shouldn't get so attached. #2 the R-142's can last a half life or more. because of the careful planning of these cars, they are made to stay reliable in service and have e-z maintenance, plus they are stainless steel, which means corrosion-free. #3 there are railfan windows. try riding them. #4 who wants to play with roll signs. if you want to get a summons or go a day in the slammer then its fine by me. thats what the r-142 doesn't have because it will trip the passengers in where the train is supposed to go. and it isn' a toy! #5 though a digital sign is just plain red (company cost cutter) its good that it is intense, so anyone can see it in the dark, can tell what train is what from about 500 feet. Redbirds tungsten light couldn't light the colorfull roll sign, which makes the red intense computer display a +. #6 have consideration for the handicapped and the environment. thats the reason they got rid of them all. they pollute, the handicapped couldn't get a ride and they were falling apart. #7 where did you get 30-40 from? fishbowls never lasted that long. more over, the TA scrapped some of them after 20 years. they debut in the early/mid 60's
#8 inflation makes the fares go up. also for compensation of expenses that the TA has on rehabilitating the system. and with new more efficient turnstiles, new tokens have to be made. Metrocards(though they pollute the environment)were made to give riders a value and to cut down on lines. they were faulty at first but now are flawless. #9 if the computers on the R-142 ain't dealin' with bill gates, then it won't break down every minute. #10 in this generation, computer graphics are entertaining, roll signs are not animative, nowadays nobody is interested in a roll signs except for the ones who are from the previous generation. Mr.Zman, i understand about every way you feel in your nostalgic recollection, everyone misses everything that was with them since childhood. however, things have to change for the better convenience of everyone in society. also things have a life like we do. things can't last to long and are not made to last that long. thats why it isn't good to be attached to many machines or objects knowing they won't ber around forever. thats why you must become more apreciative of the new things that come along and be more accepting towards them. they are made to make life alittle bit better and you know nobody will turn back towards the obsolete once exposed to new things that makes life a little better. not to say that everything is better than the old but, its up to date with the demands of the people who were requesting them. you are a good ol railfan/ transit buff, however you have to think about the others also who aren't railfans, that matter more because they are the ones who are going to be using these new pieces of equipment to get to work like us and it makes the TA's job much easier. learn to appreciate not discriminate!
terrence benjamin KHI
Of all the divided factions that appears to be on Subtalk, the one that seems to be the most passionate is people who love the old equipment and hates anything new, and vice-versa. Without starting a flaming war, what are the reasons you all here love the new equipment or the old equipment better? I'm more of a new quipment type of guy. I love seeing new innovations that make transit so fun for me. I'm a big fan of ZPTO, and all the line around the world that use it. While I love new equipment, I have an appreiation for the old stuff. Without the old stuff, we wouldn't be where we are today. While I'm am only 19, I can't really miss any of the old equipment. One old piece of equipment I love is the wooden escalators at Macy's in NYC. I instantly fell in love with that "Clackity-clack" sound. It's music to my ears. If they ever replaced them, I would be extremely pissed. However, while I like those escalators, imagine if all the escalators in the US were still wooden? They would be pieces of crap. Same with subway cars. Eventually, you gotta get new ones, but keep a few of the old ones for museums for everyone to enjoy every once in a while.
So, why do you all like old/new equipment?
I'm more of a new quipment type of guy.
You seem like my kind of guy!
I love seeing new innovations that make transit so fun for me. I'm a big fan of ZPTO, and all the line around the world that use it.
Did you participate in the thread about people who wouldn't be railfans if it wasn't for an operator up front? I was one of the few (or only) people who said the operator is not important to my interest. I would actually like it better if it was more high tech and was ZPTO.
So, why do you all like old/new equipment?
I don't like the old equipment at all. I could like something in the old equipment better (R-142 seats suck worse than anything except for R-40 seats).
What I like about the R-142:
Digital Signs. They can be easily set to the necessary terminal, are just as legible, and can show the route and destination (not origin, we don't need that) in a compact fashion. I don't like the pre R-40 signs.
Automated announcements. While sometimes there's a conductor who makes priceless announcements, these are rare and that's a sacrifice I'm willing to take to eliminate all those other lackluster ones.
The ability to see into the next car.
The new longitudnal bar above the center of the car.
Those cool A/C motor sounds.
Less shaking, less grinding noise, less noise overall
They're silver, I like that in a train.
The clock
The painting on the front adds a nice touch.
What SUCKS about the R-142:
The seats
The fold down seats are even worse
The sides, while better than Redbird sides, aren't as shiny as the R-68A and are very dull.
Those fading red stripes. They look nice from a distance, but up close they are not so good.
I liked the R-44 to R-68 colors. They had some R-62s with benches (not buckets). They should have used those seats.
I found the announcements too quiet.
Did you participate in the thread about people who wouldn't be railfans if it wasn't for an operator up front?
Yeah, but I don't remember what I wrote. I think I mentioned that I liked ZPTO. I definitly said I would still like transit even without T/O's and C/R's, cuz that's not what I'm interested in.
i remember when the marta system was less than 10 years old & the
north south line ran only to the arts center to the north line ending
& the west end station to the south. the brand new french made trains
broke down with multiple computer failures . the doors freeze shut in any cold weather especially overnignt!! new aint always better......
in quality compaired to when the redbirds were brand new !!!!!!
i agree with this post most of all & the spirit of it as well !!!!!
When I was 13, SEPTA started getting The Kawasaki LRV's. I couldn't wait until they started running on the Route 13. I do miss the Pre-War PCC's. When I turned 16, The Kawasaki B-IV's started arriving on the BSL. I thought they were cool too (mainly because they do resemble the Almond Joys). But, The Adtrash (excuse me, Adtranz) M-4 fleet are pathetic. I do like new equipment (except for the M-4's), but we should always preserve at least some of the cars from the past so that way, a new generation will appreciate transit history. As for the Fishbowls, I miss them too, and when THe Fox Network first aired the movie "Speed", they were giving away a fishbowl (that was back in '96) and I was trying to win it. Alas, I did not win, but it would be cool to drive to work in a Fishbowl. More of this in Bus Talk.
I found this really cool site for rail pictures I thought you would enjoy:
http://davesrailpix.railfan.net/index.html
Enjoy.
- Brian
Lots of trolley photos from the NYC area, very nice.
Thanks for the link.
Mr t__:^)
I spotted a few South Bend street scenes in the South Shore section.
IMPERIAL HOBBY PRODUCTIONS announces O scale R33 subway car kits in resin plastic are available now. The kits include one-piece body shells, floors, and an interior with seats, false ceiling and standee straps. Kits are limited production and require the purchase of Q-Car Co. parts and trucks to complete. R33 Body shells are also available separately for those who want to mount them to MTH mechanisms.
The kit is $135.00 and the body shell is $95.00.
Shipping is $4.00 for the first item and $3.00 for each additional item.
See our website at: http://ihphobby.tripod.com
Email me at: mkwb@excite.com for more information or questions.
Three people were shot on an N train at East 59th early Sunday morning by gang members who thought they were being videotaped. Six arrested. Story in today's Times.
Same story in today's Daily News.
Try 'em, convict 'em, and hang 'em. Enough of this crap.
...and deport 'em.
Before or after you hang them?
Before.
This way we can get around that whole "cruel and unusual punishment" thing.
My sentiments exactly! Hell, let's toss those little bastards into a pool filled with man-eating sharks. Let's how well those cowards can fight without their guns against a more powerful foe. So full of themselves for thinking somebody would film them.
But seriously, it doesn't suprise me that something as horrible as this happened. I read about a man who shot another man for accidently stepping on his foot. Well, I guess I'll be doing my picture-taking outside the train and during the day. I hope the poor victims sue these little bastards.
From the Bronx---HHHHHHMMMMMMMMMM!!!!
With comments like that, there is no way anyone can doubt that YOU were the agitator in the last conflict.
If you are going to cause havoc, do it in your own backyard and not in someone else's. That's what I meant. People have a right to feel secure in their neighborhoods. If those punks want to destory things let them destroy things intheir own balliwick.
You had me worried(?) there for a bit thinking Mr. LA transit system was involved.
I'm sure many of us were thinking that.
And with respect to your previous post, yes he should.
2:30 a.m. on the subway with a video camera? Not to sound like I'm blaming the victims, but they weren't too smart, were they?
As a person who shoots subway videos, I agree. I try to be circumspect with my recording and not infringe on people's privacy.
Yup, always the car and never the people (unless their back is to the camera or you've asked permission).
You can bet that my ears perked up when I first heard this story.
--Mark
I shot at night on the # 7 a bunch of loudtalkers but clearly my video camera was shooting thru the storm railfan window & not at anybody!!
however many time the subway car was emepty & i swung it around!!
took a still too !! ( WHEN NOBODY WAS ABOARD ) & at night !!! wow!
I just hope that if you ever get into a situation where some gangbanger S*C*U*M threaten your life for taking video of them by mistake, the "fascist gestapo pigs" as you call them are there to save your @$$, Bet that'll change your mind about the police.
I got to agree. The police have taken a lot of $#!^ the past year. It's a job that not many ppl would do, and I think that the people should appreciate them. Imagine if there were no cops??? How then would the city be?? I think Al Sharpton needs to take a seat, and shut up. Just my personal opinion.
PS Sorry for the off topic post, but I couldn't help myself.
Clark Palicka
CEO TrAnSiTiNfO
http://www.nyctransitinfo.com
I also think that if they do something wrong or commit a wrongful act they should be punished. Who wouldn't say that Volpe was a example of
justice?
I think Al Sharpton needs to take a seat, and shut up. Just my personal opinion.
I agree. It seems like he is always anti-police or simply refusing to place the blame where it really should. Another is the guy from the Black Panthers (what's his name, I totally forgot his name, seriously) who spew racist remarks against the whites. Those guys need to shut up unless they want anarchy.
Loius Farakan? I don't know how to spell his name. Nation of Islam leader.
Abdu Kali Muhammud? I think your talking about him.
Clark: Al Sharpton shut up? He's the African-American version of Newt Gingrich. He never met a mike he didn't like or a news conference he could pass on. Unlike Newt, however, the bum is an out and out bigot himself and has never apologized for the Tawana Brawley fiasco of a few years ago.
* sorry sir i disagree with your post. newt gingrich is out of office & remember there are many black folks out there who do not agree with you & the spirit of your post. .
So? Everybody has a right to their opinion. You too.
And Newt Gingrich may be out of office, when was Al Sharpton IN office to begin with? He's the quintessential demagogue (I don't expect you to know what that means).
And I accept your difference of opinion----unlike some other guys on this site who seem to take offense to someone who disagrees with them, and I don't mean you Salaam. But I do stand by what I said about Re. Sharpton. I don't like bigotry wherever it comes from.
* sorry sir i disagree with your post. newt gingrich is out of office & remember there are many black folks out there who do not agree with you & the spirit of your post. .also what does this have to do with the people being shot on the N train
Salaamallah? Is that you?
Fred, how can you compare Al Sharpton to Newt Gingrich? Aside from their very different political viewpoints, Newt Gingrich was lawfully elected to office and served that office honorably (whether you agree or disagree with his viewpoints). Sharpton, on the otherhand is not elected. he has declared himself the voice of the black people. He will inject himself into any issue that can be turned into a racial one. His goal is to skim contributions to support his somewhat opulent lifestyle at the expense of the poor black people he claims to represent.
Example: Burger King threatened to close one restaurant in Detroit (I think) because the franchisee owed the parent company $6,000,000.00. Sharpton made it a racial issue and threatened a nationwide boycott of the franchise.
Example: During the Amadu D'Allou trial, in Albany, Sharpton bussed the unemployed dupes to Albany from NYC every day to fill the courtroom with 'supporters' while he stayed in a suite in an Albany hotel and traveled via limo.
Say what you will, Fred, Al Sharpton likely will never be elected to public office. Then again he really doesn't want to. If he were, he'd be accountable. Sharpton has found it to be far more profitable to declare himself a candidate, collect the matching funds, and then quietly withdraw from the race (keeping the funds). This is a matter of public record - if you doubt me.
like i said in my post ...what does this have to do with these innocent people being SHOT on the N train ...both your post & his is off topic & has nothing whatsoever to do with "people SHOT on the N train" !!!!!
Do you know the meaning of the word thread drift?
Of course not, idiot.
Who gives a rat's ass about what you said in your post, K.D.
If I choose to respond to a posting in a thread you can either read it or not, comment on it or not but don't tell me it's off-topic. As for off-topic and inane posts, you are still the original
VILLAGE IDIOT
What I mean Train Dude is that both of them have big mouths and can't keep from spouting off. But I do agree with your assessment of Rev. Sharpton. I don't care for the fellow and I think the man is an anti-white bigot.
Leave Fat Al alone.
We DON'T know what happenned to Brawley -- until then, don't start drawing your own conclusions.
Particularly when you haven't lived in these parts for over 2 decades.
Chaio,
BMTman
As for Tawana Brawley, the courts have pretty much affirmed what most reasonable people presumed.
Ahhh, the courts. And our great judicial system is NEVER flawed, eh, Dude?
Just like the OJ case, I presume...?
BMTman
WHAT DOES the oj case HAVE TO DO WITH PEOPLE BING SHOT ON THE N TRAIN?
Salaam, it obviously has nothing to do with people shot on the N train. Neither does your repeatedly asking the question,"WHAT DOES the oj case HAVE TO DO WITH PEOPLE BING SHOT ON THE N TRAIN?" Nor does bringing Patty Hurst into the discussion to mitigate your obvious embarassment over tawana brawley. Now we all know that facts mean nothing to you. We all know that proof (proff) means nothing to you. We all know that common sense means nothing to you. The sad facts are:
Patty Hurst was guilty and went to jail.
Al Sharpton, Alton Maddox and C. Vernon Mason were guilty of perpetrating a fraud & hoax, slander, etc.
Tawana brawley was guilty of filing a false police report to cover up 'hanging' with her boyfriend all night. She was never prosecuted, even after duping many high profile celebreties like mr. cosby.
O.J. was found innocent despite overwhelming evidence for two reasons. First, the LAPD relied on Mark Fuhrman, who despite the fact that he found evidence that OJ committed the crime, he was a racist, which, in the minds of some people, discredited the physical evidence. Second, because in some groups, the guilt or innocence of a suspect has been reduced a spectator sport where it has nothing to do with facts but is based on who they are rooting for.
Now, again, salaam, this has nothing to do with the N train or people being shot. So what? Apparently some people here want to discuss it. Ignore it if you don't want to join the discussion. Or you can contribute something (and I dread using the word in conjunction with you) intelligent if you have something to say. HOWEVER, IF IT IS AN ACT, IT'S TIME YOU DROP THE VILLAGE IDIOT ROUTINE.
Dude: I hope you are New Yorker because BMT Doug got on me because I got on Fat Al and I'm not a New Yorker. But everyone out there should know that some threads lead to other subjects. I see it all the time. When the clamor dies down, it just ends.
* after reading your VILLAGE IDIOT ROUTINE post & all of the stuf & irrelevant nonsense contained in your post sir,
I still do not see where what you said ( about everything I disagreed with you on ) never the less still has nothing whatsoever to do with the horrible gunfire assult on the N train What is your point? I have heard this anti black before.
" PEOPLE SHOT ON THE N TRAIN FOR TAKING VIDEOS etc is what the topic was & is lets go back to it please!
since we do not see eye to eye on anything it is best to remain on the topic of rail transit systems worldwide!
Exactly where did anyone here post anything 'anti-black'?
-Hank
the same courts that allowed patty hearst to rob & shoot up banks join a crimminal SLA ( brawley did not do that ) fool jimmy carter & even get a pardon for all of her crimes? she should still be in prison!
WHAT DOES THIS HAVE TO DO WITH PEOPLE BEING SHOT ON THE N TRAIN ?
I know what happened to Brawley:
NOTHING!!!
I lost all respect for Reverend Al when right after Michael Griffith was killed in the Howard Beach incident he stated he had "ABSOLUTE PROOF" that the driver on the Belt Pkway that hit Griffith was in on the whole thing with the thug teenagers that chased him. That would have been virtually impossible. No computer in the world could have orchestrated such timing for the driver to be travelling on the Belt at exactly the same time Griffith was being chased. That's without even considering that the driver was from Brooklyn, not Howard Beach, he was older than the kids, was a responsible court officer, and was Jewish, which none of the kids were. And of course Sharpton never presented the proof!!!
Who was he? I seem to be very forgetful. Can anyone fill me in?
Anyway, I love country life.
Who? More than one person was mentioned.
Actually, something did happen to Tawana. She smeared doody on herself, drew some funky pictures on herself with a marker, and crawled into a bag.
actually she was proved by medical tests many of us know the hospital where she almost died from almost being murdered from multiple rape !!
on the other hand patty hearst was the one who was the liar!!
WHAT DOES THIS HAVE TO DO WITH PEOPLE BEING SHOT ON THE N TRAIN ?
i know twanna brawley was mass raped & almost murdered !! she did not lie about the medical tests at the hospital where she almost died!
Patty hearst was the ultilate liar who ran away with the SLA shot up banks & killed people robbed businesses & SHOOTS them up goes on a big crime spree & even fooled jimmy carter & got a pardon for her crimes!
WHAT DOES THIS HAVE TO DO WITH PEOPLE BEING SHOT ON THE N TRAIN ?
She was never even CLOSE to dying. And regular sex will always leave evidence of 'rape'. ESPESCIALLY with an inexperienced teenager.
-Hank
Hank, you're trying to reason with the unreasonable. You might as well try to teach a silverback to dance.
who is TAWAN bRAWLEY?
Tell that to our colleague BMT Doug. His heart is in the right place, but hearing it from a New York police officer will carry a lot more weight than from a "foreigner" from California.
"foreingner" from california? I was born in NEW YORK CITY & proud of it man! I only live in cali temporary since 1959!!
I rode low vs & bmt Q s as a child!! r-1 thru r-9s too!! & the newark subway & philadelphia subway & pcc cars too !!
Salaam: What you don't understand is that my having been born in New York and having lived there for 14 years has been dismissed by others on this line when I comment on things happening there. They say since I have lived out of state for over 4 decades I should stay out of New York affairs. How's that for Chutspah? I am a native New Yorker and I pay no mind to what they say. But that is what they say.
4 decades out of New York? You're no more a New Yorker than Hillary at this point, but at least you have something to base such a claim on.
-Hank
Well thank God for that. To be put in the same category with her would be a descent into hell.
* i do not believe that just because i keep in touch with local affairs in atlanta detroit new york city & especially the subway system makes anybody unable to notice & or comment about happenings
that take place in any city town village etc. where you go to sleep at night live & work while commenting on local events in places like detroit & or atlanta while living on the west coast has always been a mystery as to why others who live in the places you may have an opinion & or comment on etc., then they go "postal" on you beats me why people are so defensive about where they live !
I am open as to why the hostile attitude to "outsiders" who live outside new york city & i tell you one thing sir, am i ever going to have FUN with project redbird !! cant wait any longer !!
I guess i agree with your post just wanted to say something!!
( oh well ) @ peace thankz salaamallah
we do know patty hearst lied dont you sir ? did she not shoot up banks & kill people shoot up businesses rob banks & then lie about a rape with no medical proff right? If you have lived during the past decades you would have not forgotten either or did you ? Brawley did not go on a crime spree lie about some sla rape even fooled jimmy carter !!
How come you forgot that sir ? why is patty hearst not in prison??!!!
& WHAT DOES THIS HAVE TO DO WITH PEOPLE BEING SHOT ON THE N TRAIN,sir?
Try over four Doug. But I do read the papers and watch CNN, and after those accused were exonorated, Fat Al (that's your title) never admitted he had made a mistake. When someone makes a mistake and will not admit it, then I have the right and will use that right to attack him. Anyone in California who does that is fair game for you or any New Yorker, so don't tell me I can't climb over Fat Al's carcass just b ecause I don;t live in New York. That assertion is ridiculous on the face of it.
PS----No, I'm not mad at you---I'm just in disagreement.
Will both option orders for the R142(A) be taken?
I already heard that 7209 and 7210 (the last two cars of the original R142 option order) have been taken in by Kawasaki(!)
Will these cars be numbered as it is, or will they be changed (to I assume 7759 and 7760, assuming Bombardier does make the R142 option order)?
If so, then twelve (R26) redbirds will have to say good bye, as their numbers will conflict (7750 to 7761).
Nick
word is, that Kawasaki gets the 7000 car numbers and bombardier gets the 6000 car numbers.
terrence
I think it's safe to assume the R-26s will all be no more.
Which of the following redbirds do you think is in the best condition for a museum piece? Please give car numbers also.
Group A - R26/R28/R29 Class
Group B - R33 Class
Group C - R33S/R36 Class (Including R36ML, excluding #9306 [for obvious reasons])
Methinks there could be many cars in Groups B and C that are in the best condition to be displayed as museum pieces. As For Group A, there are not many qualifiers there :(
... unless group A is used in a static display, underground, discussing the weaknesses of using Low Allow High Tensile steel for subway trains, and perhaps a lesson on how to apply Bondo.
--Mark
Since this question was left unanswered (I posted this about a week ago, and focus was shifted somewhere else)...
Does anyone in the know about this have a definite answer whether or not this modification has been done, or has it been cancelled?
If this modification has been finished, is the "new" 4260 on the road and if so, what car is it paired with?
Nick
Okay, this is a contest of some sort, but I will take a stab at it...
Car numbers for this R143 order will be (assuming 212 cars)...
3011 to 3222
That would be my guess, too.
Actually, it would be 3010-3221. There has been no Car 3010 since the R10's, and the R131's go up to 3009.
I don't think 7761-7980 would do. IIRC, the Redbirds were still running when this contract came into existance. However, if you see Car #7750 in The Bronx in a few years, it may be connected to 7749, not 7751.
Speaking of Car Numbers, the R142 order will be the first in NYCT history to carry the following numbers:
6900-7002,7030-7049
This means that when the R142+option order is complete, the only numbers between 0 and 10000 not carried by a NYCT revenue service subway car will be:
2925-2949, 6253, 6255, 6257, 6259-6299, 7960-7999, 0-99, 9770-9999
It's probably going to start with a # that ends in 1. That seems to be the way the MTA has decided to number cars and keeps in line with most other rail transit systems worldwide. The R143 mockup has the number 0000, but don't trust it since the R142s look nothing like the R142 mockup.
The R142 mockup looks like a cross between an R44, an R62, and a flatbed car.
Aren't the R143's taking the old R16 numbers (6300-6499)?
No, the R-142s (Bombardier) are taking 6300 (actually 6301) to 6499...and beyond.
David
Ahhhhh, ok. Thanks
The R143s might be 1001-1212 since the R46s were renumbered using the old R12, 14 and 15 numbers and their original numbers are now free. What was the need for renumbering the R44s and 46s?
I understood it was so the "new generation of cars" could begin with "100".
I suppose the R143s could be numbered 101-212. It makes sense, but I thought the TA would only use four-digit numbers.
Umm, isn't it 212 cars, so therefore 101-312? I hope so, since my school id# ends in 303 after the hyphen, it'd be interesting to have a subway car with my number.
My school Bryant HS ID # was:
It was a blast. It was eady to remember. I could write it down without looking at my program card. I found out the fact that I had an ID # that was the first in a class of subway cars that have plied the 7 line since the 64-65 World's Fair was when I looked in my August 1993 edition of Passenger Train Journal, which had an article on the New York City subway. There was a roster of subway cars on one page, and there was the number: 9346 listed in the R36 class. I've had some kind of fixation on this number ever since. Noticed my handle lately? Same origin.
Oops, that's right it should be 101-312. Well it was late at night when I was typing so I was tired and forgot to do my math on the car numbers. I should probably hit the hay now.
10/06/2000
[Oops, that's right it should be 101-312]
The days of passenger cars with 3 digits seems over. The purpose of renumbering the R-44 & R-46's was to have a fleet of 4 digit car numbers. Something to do with the car numbers being in the computer and being four digits.
Bill "Newkirk"
They were too lazy to find and link them in the proper order, so they renumbered them after they linked them to make it appear logical. Also, perhaps to fool the public into thinking they got a new train.
I actually didn't recognize them when I saw them without their blue striping and black fronts and with their new electronic side signs for the first time.
Do you know how long it would have taken to re-align the pre-GOH R44/46's. They'd STILL be trying to finish it.
They'd have to stage a Chinese fire drill for those cars to sort them all out.:-)
The R44/46's were renumbered due to the wacked out numbers given in a pre-GOH consist.
A pre-GOH 4 car R46 consist could have looked like this: 674-919-1103-852. The R44's were the same way.
Obviously it must have been very confusing to try to find a specific car in a consist until you got used to it. By renumbering the cars, it is now rather simple to locate a specific car now.
I have a program on my calculator that can find out which consist a car would be in, if everything were mathematically perfect in the subway system. Here's the cars it works for and how it works:
R44-46:
Car x has a number equal to a multiple of 4
(x)(x+1)(x-1)(x-2)
R142/142A:
Car x has a number equal to a multile of 5
(x-4)(x-3)(x-2)(x-1)(x)
R68A
Car x has a number equal to a multiple of 4
(x)(x-1)(x-3)(x-2)
Of course, there are sets that don't conform to this mathematical pattern, but at least it gives you an idea of where they should be.
I will guess they will go #8011 thru #8212.
wayne
I am just wondering if the wooden portion on the extreme north end of the northbound platform (and possibly the extreme south end of the southern platform) covers up the closed crossunder between sides of Bolyston station.
IAC, they did not do a good job hiding it, because it just looks different than the rest of the platform!
I am not sure whether the location you are describing is the former crossunder, but the location sounds right. It was behind the entrance stairwell outbound, and at the narrow part of the inbound platform. Narrow passage and stairways, with an iron pipe railing around the openings. Also look for the location of the original north stairways to the street at Boylston. The former openings are quite evident. There was also a passageway from the inbound platform to the Little Building. All in all there is a lot of history around that station if you know where to look!
My candidates for least used stations are (no particular order):
Fairmount on the Ridge Spur
Chinatown on the Ridge Spur
Millbourne
Berks
Any others?
The Ridge Spur's Fairmount and Chinatown stops hands down are the least used stops on SEPTA's subway lines. The Spur doesn't seem to be very popular considering that the future of Saturday service is questionable and Sunday service is gone. In fact, the future of the Spur looks questionable.
What SEPTA should do is funnel some bus lines into the Ridge Spur to bring them downtown. Those bus lines could be turned into light rail lines rather than have them use the narrow north-south streets. It would make the Spur far more useful than it is now.
I have always thought the Ridge Avenue Spur is a waste, since one can always take the Broad St. train to City Hall and get a MF line train to 8 St. It's a waste of electricity, car maintenance, station maintenance, and even ink to put that line on a map. And the train only runs every 15 minutes or so.
And I thought this 30 years ago, too.
Never, never call the Ridge Line (its a LINE damit) a waste. That little piece of track lets out subways qualify as a SYSTEM. Furthermore, the Ridge line is very historic in that it used to connect to the Bridge Line and the Locust St. subway. Also the ridge line contains both Flying Junctions on the SEPTA system (although one is out of service). If the Ridge Line trains made local stops my family would use it to go to Temple.
You said: >>Never, never call the Ridge Line (its a LINE damit)<<
But I say:
{cough} Subway-patriotism aside, even SEPTA calls it a Spur on it's maps, etc. -Except on the El, when the annoying voice calls it the Ridge Ave Subway.
Then again, they try to call the El the Blue Line and the Sub the Orange Line. Touche.
If you go by Railroad standards the Ridge Line would be a Branch. Ridge Branch dosen't sound too good.
The Ridge Spur used to make the local stops. SEPTA decided to make it express to beef up ridership. The problem is that most folks know they can transfer free to the El or walk from City Hall down Market St.
When the Center City Tunnel was being built, the Ridge Spur was taken out of service for several years and replaced with a quite infrequent bus service (in addition to route 61 regular runs on Ridge Ave). This was after the free transfer at City Hall was implemented. Most people thought the Spur would never return. It did.
The Spur does carry a decent volume in peak hours but not so much in the off-peak. At best I always believed that it should be purely a rush-hour operation (maybe even a 6-10 AM/3-8 PM one) but by no means is it needed all day. It would also seem most useful as a local in 8th/Market-Erie service to supplement the main line locals and stay out of the way of expresses. Of course, I think the main line locals should end at Olney when the expresses are operating also, mainly to simplify operation at Fern Rock (most patrons boarding at Fern Rock are going for the express and those who want a local can change at Olney).
If Ridge were a line as you csall it, SEPTA would have given it a separate color from the Broad St Subway. But they didn't and they call it a Spur. When I used to attend Drexel University, I rode the Ridge trains many times, or at least tried to (very limited Saturday and no Sunday service can make that hard).
I'm sorry, but Mr. Rabbin is right about the Ridge line. In its present state, it is a waste. Why do think its Spring Garden stop was shut down? Why has Saturday service on the line been threatened on and off and Sunday service been eliminated? Every time I rode it, there was almost nobody on. And as for its history, well, that was stripped from it in 1968, when the DRPA took over the Bridge line and Locust St Subway and the connections from the Ridge line were severed.
But like I said in a previous post, if several bus lines from the north and northwestern sections of Philly were converted to light rail and funneled into the Ridge line, that would make it more popular.
Was Spring Garden on the Spur ever heavily patronized (even in rush hours)?
I've heard that at one point that Spring Garden is an "exit-only" platform on one side, like the northbound platform at 145/Lenox. Is this true?
Nick
When The City dug the tunnel for the BSL, they should have dug a tunnel under Ridge Avenue NORTH of The Broad Street and Ridge Avenue intersection instead of South of the intersection. It would have made a nice extension into Manayunk and Roxborough. That's Philly's city planning for you.
To respond to a couple posts in one:
I believe Fairmount on the Ridge line and on the main line should be counted as one station. Even so, it still belongs on that list.
Also, I ride the Ridge Spur during Chinatown's peak hours, I would not be surprised if over 70 people get off there on the 3:21 PM Olney departure.
If the Ridge spur is turned back to local service, there should still be an express right after school dismissal for CHS and GHS. With peak loads at midday schedules, I think it would be needed.
70 people? That is a lot for a line only running two-car trains (even in rush hours?)
Is Chinatown the most heavily used station the Spur?
Nick
How does the configuration of Fairmount station go like?
I've heard that you can only transfer to/from the Spur platform to/from the northbound mainline platform. Is that true?
Nick
Yes, the Broad Street Fairmount station is a side platform local stop on a 4-track line (like 23 St. in NYC). The Ridge's Fairmount Avenue stop is a center-platform 2-track station. It connects directly to the northbound BSS platform only (kind of like Bway-Lafayette/Bleeker for the New Yorkers out there).
Also Chinatown is the most crowded stop because it is the ONLY stop not served by some other train. When people have any choice at all they take the main-line trains (MF, BS). And even Chinatown (originally called Vine St.) is only about 1/3 mile from 8th and Market.
Don't forget Huntingdon, Somerset, Tioga and Church on the El, and Logan, Fairmount and Ellsworth-Federal on the Subway. Race-Vine was once a candidate for this list but has been coming back remarkably lately.
I'm surprised Logan is a little-used station. There are plenty of residences and businesses there, at least as many as Wyoming and Hunting Park. Well, ya learn something new every day.
I've remembered that the M line at various times in the 1980s and 1990s using just 4 cars when it was a shuttle (or even a 2 part shuttle, Metropolitan - Wyckoff and Wyckoff - Myrtle/Bway).
I am unsure if the J during this time ever had short trains during the off-hours.
Were all lines since the 1970s (until mid-1990s[?]) subject to shorter trains during off-peak hours, and if so were there any odd formations of train lengths? I've heard of 7-car #6 trains from one person, which way cool and unusual!
Don't get me started on smorgasbord trains. For some it is an eye sore, for others, it is a treat.
The J train did run with 4 cars during off-peak hours. As you stated, the 6 ran with 7 car trains as late as 1996. The B ran with 6 car slant-40s for a time, too.
I think the D and A trains never ran with short trains. Someone correct me if I'm wrong.
--Mark
Also the No.5 use to run 8 Cars Weeknights and 6 Cars on Weekends.
I remember once the 7 ran with 8 cars on weekends, and, of course, 11 on weekdays.
All the Queens line local stops have had big signs saying "Trains stop at center of platform" (or something like that) because at night and on weekends in the 1950s and 1960s GG trains were only 3 cars long.
There were 4 car trains at night and weekends on the D as recently as 1992/1993. I can place the dates since it was right after I bought my house, from which I can hear the D train go by, and I remember thinking it was great. Shorter trains meant less noise. (Not that I even notice.) They started it as either a safety or cost-cutting measure. I remember riding one saturday back then and couldn't understand the logic of having packed trains on the weekend. My wife and I just gave up on weekend subway trips. Too much of a hassle.
4-car trains ran on the C as well.
This had to be the Franklin Av. service when they did work on the Propspect-DeKalb line. When I was dating my wife back then, I used to get the 4 car R-68's at Franklin, and it gave me one less transfer to get back home in Midwood. But after that period, they stopped through running the trains during these reroutes, and used shuttle buses instead, with trains running light between Prospect and Franklin.
Hi Mark,
I remember in the mid 80's, that the D would run 8 cars in the afternoon on weekdays.
The D ran with 4 cars on weekends and midnights. So did the A running 4 car R44's exclusively back in 1996. Overcrowding however killed that. Back in 1998, they cut number 7 trains down to 5 cars at night. That lasted two weeks when passengers at 1 am were riding on the roof because the trains running 20 mins apart were jam packed. I remember seeing that as I was working the N at the time seeing #7 train passengers scrambling to find room to fit on at Queensboro Plaza. Within the past 5 years when they were cutting trains, the only B division line(that I saw)that they did not attempt to cut at night was the E.
I'm sorry, it was 6 cars on the number 7. Still, it has to go down as one of the worst decisions ever made in the TA.
Now that you mention it, I remember seeing a 6-car 7 train during the afternoon of August 4, 1977 while heading home from JFK after returning from Switzerland. Unless, of course, I was seeing things due to jet lag.:-)
I don't know about the 1970s, but through the 1960s, running shorter trains in off-peak hours was the rule rather than the exception on most NYC transit lines.
BMT southern division trains, which typically ran rush hour 8 car trains of standards or the equivalent - 4 triplexes typically dropped two of the cars (or one triplex) for midday and weekend service, and late night service was frequently a short train of only 3 standards.
I also recall 4 car trains on the D and F and 3 car trains on the GG on weekends.
Other lines cut cars in a similar manner.
-- Ed Sachs
I know that when I started riding the subways on a regular basis in 1977, all lines ran short trains during non-peak hours.
On the IRT:
"1", "2", "4" and "6" trains ran seven car trains all times except rush hours.
The "5" train ran five car trains all times except rush hours. I'm not sure what the "7" and the "3" train ran.
On the IND/BMT:
The "A", "D", "E", "F" ran six car trains (4 cars if they were 75' R44/46) all times except rush hours.
The "B", "CC", "GG", "J", "LL", "M", "N", "RR" trains ran eight car trains during rush hours and 4 car trains during all other times. The "AA" being a non-rush hour only service ran four cars as well.
This was practiced until around 1979. Then some of the lines started operating longer trains during normal hours only (6am-9pm weekdays only) or at all times.
During the late 70s, 3 trains were 5 cars long during weekends. IIRC, the conductor was stationed between the first and second cars. 7-car trains were the rule on the 1 and 2.
Back in the late 60s, I used to see the following on Saturdays:
A - 8 cars; E - 6 cars; AA - 4 cars. As Christmas approached, trains would be lengthened to 10 cars on the A and E, and 8 cars on the AA. D trains were generally 8 or 10 cars long.
I can vaguely remember 3-car AA trains on Sundays in May of 1967, although they may have been 4 cars.
I think that the G should be extended to Church Ave at least in some form or another, since the G will be permanently cut to Court Sq.
Good/useful crosstown line and time-saver, bad decisions, IMHO, by the brass to reduce it :(
I think it should be extended to Church as well, but only if the new V train were also to go there, which supposedly is not going to happen because the G alone would not be enough to handle the rush hour crowds in Brooklyn. This same V train is the reason the G is being cut back to Court Square.
Why is it that people think that if the G is extended to Church, that the F must run express.
I for one, don't think it should.
I do not want the F to run express, however I DO want the G to run to Church.
Rest assured, unless the V train is created as a Sixth Ave. local to Chruch Ave., the F will run express only over the dead bodies of the Carroll Gardens residents.
The only problem with extending the G is that it requires more cars, and those are in short supply. If the V were extended to Church someday the G would have to be also, but that is unlikely for the same reason.
Perhaps they should extend the G in off peak hours, when F service is less frequent.
I would guess even with the addition of the R-143 cars, the surplus R-40M/R-42s will all go towards increasing service on the Queens Blvd. line. But hopefully, when the R-160s (or whatever number they designate) arrive, they might actually save a few of the in-better-shape R-40/40M/42s the way they plan to save the best Redbirds, and that might give the MTA enough trains to at least resume rush hour F express service in Brooklyn, with the V and G trains running on the local track between Bergen and Church Ave.
(But hopefully, when the R-160s or whatever number they designate) arrive, they might actually save a few of the in-better-shape R-40/40M/42s the way they plan to save the best Redbirds, and that
might give the MTA enough trains to at least resume rush hour F express service in Brooklyn, with the V and G trains running on the local track between Bergen and Church Ave.)
That would mean increasing operating expenses to benefit people in Brooklyn, at a time when a substantial share of the subway fare will be going to pay TA (and LIRR and MetroNorth) debt. It would take a political revolution indeed for that to occur. Not only would Brooklyn's "reprenstatives" have to be organized and powerful enough to demand it, but they would also have to be willing to keep demanding even if offered a lesser sum of money in increased funding for "their" non-profits. I consider myself a visionary thinker, but some things are just too inconceivable to imagine.
Be optimistic -- we're talking 8-10 years down the line here, and perhaps operating revenues will continue to increase to the point where they will be able to afford the added expense...
...or maybe in 2005 New York City will elect a mayor from Park Slope :-)
The TA wants to make the G a 24 hour OPTO line when it gets permanently shortened to Court Square. The chance of the G being extended to Church Ave. with or without OPTO is very remote considering that the G is a lightly used line in that sector as it is.
As far as possible express service, it could only run from Smith/9 to Church. The express tracks from north of 4th Ave. to north of Bergen St. are permanently out of service. The Bergen Street tower after re-construction due to the tower fire, had the controls for the lower level taken out as well as the controls for the switch north of Bergen on the F and the switch south of Bergen which was subsequently dismantled.
I'm all for it. It would be nice to see
G TO CHURCH AV
on those R46 cars.
The service appeared in maps in the 1970's, it'd be nice to see it on a 2K1 map.
The G needs to run to Church Avenue because to get to the 4th Avenue subway, a G rider needs to get off at Smith-9th and take the F train 1 stop to get to 4th Avenue. If they only had a switch track near 7th Avenue, then the G could at least make it to there. But they don't so they won't.
I agree, only because it would allow the tower at Smith/9th to be closed. The tower at Church Ave. is always manned reguardless. Plus it eases the delays on people transferring from the BMT at 9th St. to the Crosstown line.
The two most glaring ones are IMO:
#1 170-foot platforms...BAD! Perhaps 180-foot platforms will be much better, at least to accomodate the 60' cars (and conforming to the possible end of ordering 75' cars)
#2 Single track north of Botanic Garden. This severely limits capacity. IMO, should be double tracked all the way, even to Franklin Ave terminal.
Nuff Said!
Nick
Hey, Nick. It seems as though you're several months late on the Great Franklin Shuttle debate.
However, your observations are indeed accurate.
Another mistake IMHO (although one that had been in place from the original line) is that the El should have been continued East over Fulton Street for a mere two blocks where the Shuttle would have terminated -- rightfully -- at the Nostrand Ave. express station.
IMHO, that's why the Franklin doesn't have -- and never had -- the larger riding conditions that it could have had. It's terminus at a local station is unfortunate by any standards.
BMTman
And Mr. BMTman, hope you turned your calendar for a personal surprise,
that's right a R-32 on the Franklin Ave. Shuttle.
Mr t__:^)
If you're talking about the pic on the 10/2000 NYCS calendar, those were pre-GOH R32's approaching the Park Place station long before the reconstruction.
Even when the FAS did use the 32's, they were in conjunction with either the 11's or another set of 32's, with no access to one end car.
BTW, in the pic mentioned above, at the Dean Street station, are R10 cars.
R10's on the Franklin Shuttle? I've never heard of any R10's operating on any BMT line other than the Jamaica (#15) line. Perhaps Mr. R10 can confirm that.
I believe they did operate there for a brief time in the late 60's or early 70's (could be wrong, but I thought I saw a photo of one on the FS).
BMTman
A couple of R10s showed up on the "B" line somewhere in the 1970 area.
Can't confirm any on the Franklin Shuttle.
wayne
There were R-10s on the B even earlier, in 1968. Although I never saw them there, there are photos in the car section, and in each case, the cars in the 1968 photos are wearing the earlier teal-and-white racing stripe paint scheme.
According to the caption, it was an ERA fantrip using the R10s on the shuttle. They never ran there in revenue service.
I have personally ridden R-10s on the Brighton Express in the 1980s. They were placed there after the R-46s were removed (because Brighton residents complained of excessive vibration from the trains).
--Mark
I rode on D train of my beloved speedsters once in 1979 or 1980, only it was along CPW and the Grand Concourse. It was strange to see them there, to say the least.
You should have seen these beasts in "F" service! ZOOM ZOOM ZOOM!
I miss the R-10s and the greenbottles should never have been scrapped.
wayne
The only express stretch I ever rode them on was CPW - many, many times. Never had a chance to ride them along the Queens or Fulton St. express tracks. The Rockaway rocket ride in 1969 made up for that.
This train (I guess back round 1981) REAAAAALLLY cranked it up on the "F" line. I guess it got up to or maybe over 50 MPH. In the straightway before Parsons it was especially fast. Lightning fast even on the broad curve between Sutphin & Van Wyck (we were express ALL THE WAY QP-179th St). Lead motor was 3080. Paint scheme: MTA Silver/Blue with excessive graffitti inside and out.
wayne
I often wonder how those R-10s on the B handled the 4th Ave. express stretch. They probably took it 50 mph or thereabouts as well.
I wonder...
Why were the R11's retired before they could replace the cars on the FAS with R68's? It was rather awkward to get a train with one car closed off. Maybe they should have replaced the 11/32 combo with an R46 AA set, take the R32's and put them on the G line.
Now that the 68's run on the line, there's no need.
The R11 were out of there long before the R68 came along - the replacements for the R11 were dingy-looking Pre-GOH R27's and R30s, with a few R32 sprinkled in.
wayne
And we hopes it wasn't #3669! OUCH!
wayne
I completely agree. The line should've been 2 tracks at least thru Park Place, and the stations should've been set up so expansion to full 600' would be relatively easy.
600 feet? I don't think there's the need or ever will be. Would you settle for 300 feet.
If the Manhattan Bridge ever closes down completely.
It does look like they left provisions for future extensions of the platforms, and the second track.
If the Manhattan Bridge is closed to subway trains, the need for 600' platforms would be essential, as Franklin Ave. would provide an alternate terminal for the Brighton line.
Never never never never never never never will happen.
What? The bridge closing? It CAN happen, if you fully understand the precarious condition it's currently in.
The condition is completely overstated.
OH yeah? Do explain ...
Chris,
It's been explained many times. The southside has just undergone a major overhaul, and the northside is next. It is in much better condition now, than when it was in full use in the early 80's. Why? Because the bridge was neglected and virtually uninspected for 70 years. If a disaster was going to happen, it would have happened then.
Furthermore, a personal friend of mine, is involved in the re-re-re-construction. The bridge is fully able to handle both sides being open, at the present time, although in about another two or three decades, will have to go through more reinforcement, and possible service disruptions.
Whether it is allowed to fully re-open in '04 depends on the city. It will be a political decision, whether or not full service is restored. It will be an inexusable excuse, if the city says "No" after 20 years of restoration. They will have a lot to explain to Sea Beach Fred and myself !
JDL
I can just see a "Bridge Disaster in New York" headline in the papers.
In Fantasy Land? It isn't happening, it's all hyberbole.
Like I said, never. If the Man. bridge were to fall down tomorrow, they'd just send the trains down Broadway via the tunnel and they would construct a tunnel under the East River to eventually resume 6th Av. service. Going via Broadway would still be a one seat ride whilst going to Franklin Av. would be two trains and only the C local would serve it. Or they would make the A's go local which would boil the blood of everyone riding the A.
And disrupt service on the "showcase" A line? Fuhgeddaboutit.
Zman, that's exactly why the TA SHOULD HAVE spent another million or two on extending the Franklin Shuttle another two short blocks east where it would've tied in nicely with the Nostrand Avenue stop, allowing for 8th Ave. express train access.
A grand opportunity was missed (such as is the case quite often with NYCT).
BMTman
>If the Man. bridge were to fall down tomorrow, they'd just send the trains down Broadway via the tunnel...Going via Broadway would still be a one seat ride whilst going to Franklin Av. would be two trains and only the C local would serve it.
But you can only fit so many trains through the tunnel, so a two seat ride is much better than packed trains at large headways. (The bridge was fully closed rush hour 7-29-92, so I got to see what it was like--horrible. Since a lot of people change to the IRT, they already have a two seat ride, and for those who would need the IND, they would have a much easier connection at Franklin than in Manhattan.
>Or they would make the A's go local which would boil the blood of everyone riding the A.
And disrupt service on the "showcase" A line? Fuhgeddaboutit.
This is the emergency plan (The E would be sent in as the express replacing the C)
>they would construct a tunnel under the East River to eventually resume 6th Av. service.
It is much cheaper to upgrade the Shuttle (there are provisions in the layout for this) than to build a new tunnel, which was first suggested 47 years ago, and was always shot down because of the money. (The most you would get would be the Rutgers connection, perhaps).
The upgrade of the FS will never happen. They would have to not only create 10 car platforms, they would have to either totally tear up Park Place to create an island plat for two tracks or have to build a second platform at Park Place, a second platform and track would have to be constructed at Franklin Ave. or the congestion would be horrendous if regular D service were to run to Franklin, and you would have to knock down the new tunnel wall at Botanic Garden to lengthen the platform. Also, the line would have to be shut down again for a lengthy period of time to perform this work or it would never get done. And there would still wouldn't be a one seat ride into Manhattan.
Their best option as far as constructing something short of a new East River tunnel would be to construct an extension from Chambers St. on the J line via the layup tracks which used to serve the Chambers loop train, over to the current roadbed of the D line at the Man. bridge portal. The tunnel already exists, it would just have to be curved a bit by the portal to allow trains to enter the Grand St. station and they would have to extend the platforms at Broad, Fulton and Chambers to hold ten cars which would be a lot easier than tearing up the FS and still not having a one seat ride to Manhattan.
The FS plan would be a total waste of money and time. Why spend millions to send people to Franklin Ave. when you can spend the same money on a plan to send them into Manhattan? Just like that stupid airtrain, they are spending all that money to construct it and it still isn't serving the purpose of giving people a one seat ride to JFK from the city. They'll eventually build an extension to run it into Penn Station but that won't happen until the PA finds out that it's a big money loser because people just won't use it because it's inconvenient.
Like I said, the FS plan will never happen. Not only would I take bets on this but I would lay odds. Preposterous.
Your idea would do nothing to solve the problem, as the D route you are proposing would have to share the same track with the M,N,Q,R from Dekalb Av. through the Montague St. tunnel. Putting temporary wooden platform extensions (they did this on the Brighton line during repairs) at the Botanic Gardens and Franklin Av. stations (opening doors of first two cars only at Park Pl.) could solve the problem of train lengths. Restoring fourth track between Park Pl. and Franklin Av. could cut somewhat the 8 min. headway. Relatively little investment would be needed for this.
10/06/2000
[you would have to knock down the new tunnel wall at Botanic Garden to lengthen the platform. ]
If the platform at Botanic Garden were to be lenghtened, the landmark brick tunnel that dates back to the steam days need bot be disturbed. Just extend the platforms south where is plenty of room. Of course let's not hold our breaths, this is unlikely to happen.
Bill "Newkirk"
>they would have to either totally tear up Park Place to create an island plat for two tracks or have to build a second platform at Park Place, a second platform and track would have to be constructed at Franklin Ave.
There is already space for a second track at both stations. At Park, They would only have to move the bridge to the stationhouse and the ramps to the rear exit. I imagine there might be empty space under the platform (adjacent to the street level fare control area) they can build a stairway up to the platform from. At Franklin, the bumping block for the second track simply wouldn't be as far north as the other one, and at both stations there is room to extend the platforms south. (At Botanic Gardens they would have to remove a concrete room at the S. end of the n/b platform.
>And there would still wouldn't be a one seat ride into Manhattan.
Why spend millions to send people to Franklin Ave. when you can spend the same money on a plan to send them into Manhattan?
Remember, this would be an EMERGENCY situation. It has nothing to do with maximum convenience. They have to do whatever they can with the available tracks, and it would still probably cost less than the Nassau idea you mentioned (newly dug tunnel under Manhattan Bridge Plaza and tracks from the end of the stub tracks to the Chrystie portal, plus the realignment and station extension you mentioned--all of this involving boring through rock), which would still force all trains through Montague.
600 feet? I don't think there's the need or ever will be. Would you settle for 300 feet?
The TA only planned to operate two trains on the FS. So they saved costs and single tracked the line except Botanic Garden. Even if there is a breakdown, there is enough room for the second train to key a door into the station at the single track stations so two tracks aren't necessary.
Personally, I have nightmares thinking that I will have to work the line. It is a risky line for a T/O to operate due to the signal system installed. Timers throughout the entire line and if you hit one of them, Control Center hears an alarm. NO THANKS!
But the layout makes some sense considering that there shouldn't be a big boom in passenger usage of the FS.
...barring any total shutdown of both sides of the Manny B. Then, look out.
"...there shouldn't be a big boom in passenger usage of the FS."
I happened to ride the Franklin Shuttle for the first time since its reconstruction this past Labor Day. The trains were packed to the rafters, probably because of a West Indian festival that attracted thousands of people to that neighborhood.
Right. But that's only one day out of 365.
Zman, I ride the FS once or twice in every couple of weeks to see how things are going over there. I can say with much certainty that the two-car trains are indeed packed during the evening rush hour.
There also tend to be alot of school kids riding the Franklin, probably due to the nearby Clara Barton High School and a School for the Deaf over on Eastern Parkway across from the Botanic Gardens.
I haven't ridden the Shuttle during non-rush hour (weekday) periods, but I would gather the passenger loads are pretty light.
BMTman
I'm sure that the rush hour can fill up the two cars pretty quickly. During the off hours excluding nights, the cars have a good amount of people on board but still there is ample seating available. According to TA stats, 10,000 riders use the line every weekday. There are 236 one-way trips scheduled on the line every weekday(118 in each direction). Dividing the amount of passengers by the amount of trips equals an average of 42 passengers per run. Thus it does not warrant extending the platforms for the line. Of course the bulk of the rides occurs during the rush hour but the rush hour volume doesn't approach the maximum capacity of 500 passengers for the two cars.
Hey, George! I was one of those thousands at the West Indian Day Parade and took the Franklin Shuttle to get back to Canarsie (A to the L at B'way/Junction).
Who knows, maybe we were on the same train.
BMTman
THE INSTITUTE OF ELECTRICAL AND ELECTRONICS ENGINEERS, INC.
NY Section
Rail Signal System Innovations Forum
October 18, 2000, 6:00 to 8:00 PM Host : Nortel Networks 320 Park Avenue, (50th ST) NYC
The IEEE NY Section Vehicular Technology and Communication Society Chapters will co-sponsor a technology-sharing forum on rail signal systems. Lead panelists will explain and answer questions on the Communication Based Train Control (CBTC) system that is being developed for the Southeastern Pennsylvania Transportation Authority and the new signal system being developed for the Southern New Jersey Light Rail Transit System with a shared Right-of Way for freight service.
Lead panelists are John LaForce and Brian Mlddleton. John is an IEEE Member , Vottng Member on the IEEE CBTC Standards Committee, and Deputy Chief Engineer Operations for SEPTA. Brian is the Booz-Allen & Hamilton Rail Systems Project Manager working on the NJ Transit Southern New Jersey Light Rail Transit System. Systems engineers, suppliers, installers, and operators are invited to share insights.
Future IEEE NY Section, Vehicular and Communication Society Technology Sharing forums are being planned for:
. Fiber Optic Communication networks for Rail Vehicle control,
. NYC Transit R-143 Rail Car propulsion, control, and signage,
. Automatic Bus Location and Control Systems, and
. Wayside and Railcar PA and Customer Information Systems
There is a $35.00 charge for the forum and refreshments commencing 5:30 PM.
Advance registration is required for admission.
IEEE Members and non-members may register for the October 18, 2000 forum by sending $35.00 checks payable to IEEE NY Section to RT&T Inc., 30 Woodiake Dr., Croton-on-Hudson, NY 10520.
IEEE Members please provide membership number and indicate interest in participating on one or more of the planned forums.
Anyone remember the days before the PC Expo when it was a IEEE event ?
Went there once as a teenage with my Uncle Bob. Didn't know the group still existed ... amazing what you learn here !
Mr t__:^)
Modern life offers few certainties. Death and taxes are said to be two, but in fact they're not certain. Residents of Monaco and some offshore tax havens pay no taxes at all. And as far as death is concerned, I have just one word to say: Elvis.
But one absolute 101% certainty is the fact that NYC residents think differently from people everywhere else in the country. Why, I don't know. Undetected impurities in the Delaware and Croton reservoir systems might be to blame. Whatever the cause, peoples' brains simply work in a unique manner once you enter city limits.
Some of these differences are fairly harmless. Among other things, typical New Yorkers:
- know how to eat sushi with chopsticks
- would never call a Broadway musical a "play," or vice-versa
- can immediately tell the difference between a Monet and a Manet
- can recite a list of fine country inns in the south of France.
Ah, but there's a downside too. Typical New Yorkers:
- believe that all social problems can be overcome by throwing enough taxpayer dollars at them
- think that answerable-to-shareholders corporations will pay huge premiums to operate in Manhattan because of all the cultural attractions
- pride themselves on getting terrific deals when they pay $2k/mo for tiny apartments in armpit neighborhoods
- (keeping things on-topic) believe that because subways are the best way for getting around Manhattan, also believe that they're the answer to all the nation's transportation problems.
I don't know what, but there are at this time several fire trucks parked at Queens Blvd and 63Dr, and Firemen have entered the station.
-Hank
DOH! I exited 63rd Drive about 20 minutes before! (It wasn't me...) BTW, the MetroCard Bus was there.
A garbage (solar in TA lingo) can fire, quickly extinguished.
Had anyone kept up with the west side redevelopement issue? Should the 7 get extended to the Javits Center? Would a new north-south line be needed if the west side were to be devleoped, or are office and apartment towers going to be built no matter what? It seems as if all of that happened on the east side before (and if) the 2 Ave. Subway is ever built.....
As a subway person, I say, of course the #7 should be extended west to 10th Avenue, then south to 14 St, then east to 8th Avenue, at a minimum. OR the L can be extended up 10th Avenue to 42 St (or both as far as I'm concerned, using moving platforms to please stand clear of as trains enter and leave the station).
There would be the following stations, if I were the czar: 42&9th, 40&10th (right after the curve south), 34 St., 23 St., 16&10th (just before the curve east). And they would be side platform (just because I like the way they look). Okay, let's break ground...
Because of the Lincoln Tunnel conflict, I'd probably turn the 7 south at Ninth Ave., with a stop for the Port Authority between 40th and 38th Sts., and then sent it west across 36th St. to the Javits Center, which would leave only the tunnel feeder road at Dyre Ave. (not that Dyre Ave., the other one between 30th and 42nd streets in Manhattan) for the digging crews to contend with.
It would be nice if they could extend the 7 train south along 11th Ave. past the Javits Center towards 23rd St., and from there elevated along West Street to WTC. That would allow the rest of the public better access to the planned Hudson River Park as well as filling a gap in subway service on the lower far west side, but just getting the Flushing line over to 11th Ave. is going to be a major ordeal, so if the MTA can just get that done, I'd call it a success.
Dyre Ave. (not that Dyre Ave., the other one between 30th and 42nd streets in Manhattan) for the digging crews to contend with.
You wouldn't have to mention the one in the Bronx if you had spelled it Dyer Avenue as the Manhattan one is spelled.
Jack, knock it off with the grammar police routine.
What grammar?
You used the wrong Dyre/Dyer.
Which changed the meaning in what way? Turned it into a completely different street name that was unrecognizable to other readers on the board? If there had been a 'K' added to the word, as in Dyker Beach Park, then your correction would have been more than just Felix Ungerish-nitpicking, but it wasn't.
Anyway, the point stands on the 7 route to Javits Center -- zig-zagging it up Ninth Ave. removed the Lincoln Tunnel main entrance portal obsticle and leaves only the feeder road coming from 30th Street to deal with.
Yeah, I think that we all dream of a Subway line down the west and lower west side, but they estimate that it's going to cost $700 million just to get it out to the Javits Center. Like the U.S., the western "hinterlands" will be the last area to be developed and the new road up the west side is neither a highway nor designed to have anything running over it.
What this boils down to is that it will cost billions to get Subways on the west side, east side, to the airports, to underserved areas, etc......and the funding just isn't there. New York did it in the past and other cities around the world are doing it, so we need to come up with some way to fund these projects. It's how the city grew in the first place, and how it will grow again!
The 7 will be extended to 11th Ave. only if the west side stadium for the Jets or whomever is built. No new north/south service on the west side will happen in any of our lifetimes so forget about that.
I will soon come out with R142 cars for BAHN. I was able to create the car graphics for the cars, and was able to use the BAHN car editor to draw my graphical representation of these new cars. (And I did it without knowing a word of German!) Also, there's a Windows version of BAHN in the Beta stages, BAHN 3.70.
How about a standalone Java version? :-)
of BAHN or the R142 cars?
Something I've always thought about was this:
Render a bunch of towers in Train Dispatcher 2, have a number of users on the web load one tower each, and then have the trains passed from one tower to another down the line over the web. A virtual railroad!
Click on the picture below to get to my site. Then, take the express train to TP, then take the Main Line to the Download Center. Then, look under BAHN Stuff.
It's awesome, I've operated it from end to end on my IRT board and it made it the round trip sucussfully (On the 2)!
Trevor Logan
Well I'm glad you like it.
Do I need to download a routemap first? ;-)
If you mean a BAHN layout, there are some layouts you can download on another one of nycsubway.org's pages. This is the one. If you mean like a GIF or JPEG image of a subway map, no.
If you mean a BAHN layout, there are some layouts you can download on another one of nycsubway.org's pages. This is the one. If you mean like a GIF or JPEG image of a subway map, no.
You can download the car editor, the latest version of BAHN (3.70 beta), and a graphics editor on the Official BAHN Info Page, which is linked on the page that the above link points to. (BTW Dave, the link is a bit old. The new address is http://www.jbss.de/hpg_eng.htm)
The link on this thread no longer works.
Does anyone have a copy of these R142s?
Anybody read this funny book about the NYC subways? It's called "The Underground Guide to New York City Subways" by Dave Frattini. It is a station-by-station guide to the entire system, discussing quality of the lighting, cleanliness, nearby food, etc. It also discourses on the utility of each train line. And it is written really funny, a little young in style for me, but otherwise really good.
Everyone has read it and from a historical and even current subway information standpoint it is a MESS!!! I counted at least a dozen errors. Dave Frattini saysin the dedication that "If you want something done right, do it yourself". To him I say, if you want to do a book using the subway do better research. I read someplace he recently got a degree. If the reasearch he did even comes close to what he did for this book I question what marks he got.
Some errors:
Page 2 "At approximately 9 AM ....., the first subway rolled out of the City Hall station....
--the first train left at 2:35 PM.
Pege 3 - He mentions the Transit Authority a couple times relating to 1905. The TA did not come into existance until 1953.
This book is not exactly flying off the shelves.
Personally I give this book a "B" (for borrow - not buy)
Guess you don't think it's funny.
Should I have?
I think Mr. Frattini needs lessons in Transit History (of which any of us could probably provide).
the booths where the transit people work at (located at the front of the station) there is a sticker that has a R110 and a R142 picture on it, saying RAPID TRANSIT OPERATIONS on the bottom....
BTW if you didnt know, when the R142 leaves the station you never hear the click, clack, click clack on the tracks.......and when it gets ready to leave it sounds like its charging up to leave....
It's not an R110 and an R142. It's an R130 (#2 train, AKA R110A) and an R131 (A train, AKA R110B). Strangest thing is that these cars are rarely seen! The R130's aren't seen at all!
...and the R131's are never seen on the A line, either. The will retire running on the C line.
have you ever heard a train make a funny noise???
then post it on the subtalk message board
Oh, there was an E train of R-1/9s at 42nd St. once which started squeaking as it took power. It sounded as though a flock of sea gulls had found their way onto the platform; I almost wanted to duck for cover. A few seconds later, the train moaned, groaned, and grunted on its way.
Occasionally, I'd get a train of old-timers whose bull and pinion gears would sing two pitches harmoniously a major third apart, exactly the same as those fighter plane sounds you hear on TV and in the movies. It sounded beautiful to my ears, anyway, especially that one southbound A train as it started up from 59th St.
Then there was this train of BMT standards whose bull and pinion gears, just as they groaned past C# below middle C, would emit an added twist: an "awwwwwrrrrmoooooore" sound. I only heard it on one ride, and it repeated itself at each stop.
Of course, my beloved R-10s had a sound all their own - rolling thunder.
I loved how R16's sounded at full speed. Flat wheels really accentuated the "clickety-clack" sound I remember as a child.
Hey, try the LIRR some day if you want flat wheels :)
I remember freshman (freshperson?) year comming home on MN. There was STILL a stretch of jointed track outside of New Haven. Fun how the M-2s would bounce and clunk over it. Oh yeah, and the Peck bridge project runaround. You'd never seen those things take such sharp turns before.
I STILL love the noise Arrows make when they start up and leave the terminal. All those lowers suddenly turning on is neat.
E-60's also increase in blower noise as they leave, it almost sounds like a diesel for a few secs!
ACMUs at speed sound cool too.
I barely remember the old subway cars (R-10, etc). Was a little kid back in the 80's :(
I love the Arrow's hum which I hear is common among MU Cars.
You would have loved the R-10s on the A, especially if you like seeing local stations being reduced to blurs.
That would be 25 MPH :o> (sorry!)
Back in 1997 I was on a Slant "B" train going through DeKalb on the express track - lead motor was #4208 (the "GHOST" car) and when it made the turn from Flatbush into Fulton it made a hooting sound, very much like a PATH train, particularly the K class. Only time I've ever heard a NYCT train sound like a K-car.
wayne
i looooove the whistling noise from the good ol redbirds.....
The most unusual subway train sound sequence, in my opinion, was that of the air compressors on the R10's and 12's. I can still imitate them and used to have a large audience for same at many Association of Railway Museum conventions. They wanted to hear it over and over again...in return, I never had to buy a drink at those events. Fair enough!
Then, of course, there was the Lo-V door closing/locking sequence and the brake application sequence for a running R1/9. Very fine and unique sounds! Shall we discuss a Lo-V digging into its pinion gears on the hill up to 86th and Lex after dropping a full octave at the 77th Street section break?..and the pop of the breaker and the raising of the interior illumination about three car lengths into the 86th Street platform? Or, how about the riot of pinging pinions on the flying Lo-v's in that long stretch on the Lex Express through 59th Street after posting it at the last dowhnill timer (no station there in those days)down to the big brake application just short of the double slip switches at 43rd St? Full out, all happy pinions as though the train were trying to outrun itself.
Mentioning the R1/9's going full gear climbing up underneath Coogan's Bluff to 145th Street's lower level southbound, or flying out of the Harlem River underwater tunnel northbound, slamming though the facing switches landside, running full open on the gentle curve without collision walls through 161st Street and then running full speed with collision wall reverberation through that tighter leftward curve to get under the Concourse and then climbing up the long hill to 167th Street is totally unnecessary. Anyone can imitate National Pneumatic door closers and R1/9 door engines closing and locking with the air sequence.
We won't attempt to bore you by imitating the R1/9 ceiling fans - everyone does that. Then there were the Lo-V air pumps - a light, almost feminine ticking sound emitting from burly beasts.
If you want to get away from the tunnels and els, there was always the delightful syncopation of steel wheels on steel jointed rails atop wood hanging over tidal water as the LIRR hustled over the long trestle to Rockaway past great places like The Raunt and Big Egg Marsh. When you recall the sounds you can feel that salt water breeze.
Do trains make the darndest sounds? Sometimes. Do train buffs make the darndest sounds? All the time!
In Shoreline's great days, we used to teach new operators how air brakes worked by teaching them to make air brake sounds along with the instructors (I was one at that time). In order to make the sounds, your body has to function the same way the brake cylinder does in a straight air car. Worked very well!
Isn't in wonderful that our subways are becoming virtually noiseless? Peace at last!
Ah, yes, the air compressors on the R-10s. Nothing else could quite compare. Not to mention their doors. Everything about those cars was fast.
Naturally, the marvelous sounds of the R-1/9s added up to one glorious serenade.
10/03/2000
Did anyone mention the "whistling" brake release of the as delivered R-46? or how about the GOH R-46 release sound. Two of the silliest sounds I've ever in the subway.
Bill "Newkirk"
I loved that shhhhhhhhh followed by that ascending whoooooooooooooooo sound. It is analagous to the R-46s the way the rapid compressor sound was to the R-10s.
Does somebody farting on a train next to you count?
The door "warnings" on San Francisco's BART system sound EXACTLY like someone letting out a long, windy fart. Of course, on NYCTA's hard plastic seats, one must be careful to not apply much pressure when dispersing their bodily gases -- the plastic seats tend to accentuate the noise.
01/04/2000
[Of course, on NYCTA's hard plastic seats, one must be careful to not apply much pressure when dispersing their bodily gases -- the plastic seats tend to accentuate the noise.]
This was never a problem when rattan seating was in vogue !
Bill "Newkirk"
I miss the hum of the Westinghouse 1454A traction motors, the low F# or high A-flat horns. I miss the hum of the MG sets. All of these sounds were common on the Almond Joys. And speaking of horns (or should I say, whistles), what's a so-called state-of-the-art fleet like the M-4's doing with whistles instead of horns? If anything, they should have those horns from the AEM7's.
I would have to say the sound I miss the most is the moaning and groaning from the spur-cut bull and pinion gears used on prewar equipment. Modern equipment uses helical-cut gears which are much quieter.
R-6-2 GE fans going "glglglglglglglglglglglglg" and any R-1, R-4,
R-6(1-2-3), R-7 or 7a, or R-9 and that little "PFSHT" under the transverse seat as the train prepares to move; it's some kind of valve or cock I forget what.
wayne
That's the load sensing valve. You'd hear it a split second after the doors closed. It's plainly audible on heypaul's tape.
Before they were overhauled, the R-46s used to 'whistle' when the air brakes were released. After the GOH, they'd groan instead.
The R-44s sound as if they're passing gas when their air breaks are released.
Post-GOH R-32s emit a long, downward whine when decelerating that can be heard from the street above. So do the 62As.
The 68s often emit a high-pitched whine when they're slowing down- which is virtually all the time. It sounds like it could be feedback from the PA.
PATH cars from the seventies, the ones with two-tone beige multi-directional seats, used to 'knock' a lot.
10/04/2000
[The R-44s sound as if they're passing gas when their air breaks are released.]
After the "gas passing" sound the final burst of air sort of mimics the release of the old R1-9's. Not the same but similar.
Bill "Newkirk"
I operated an R44 on the A line that sounded like a jet airplane when the trains brakes were applied. That was cool. I also like it when the motors make a "whirr whirr" sound every time the wheel turns.
Anytime a train operates or sounds unusual, I like it. It takes some of the monotony out of the job and it gives the car a little personality. Just like car #6120(R46) which gives the highest pitched "ding dong" in the system. And it's mate #6121 has a very low pitched "ding dong". When you hear them both chime together, it's like buff music!
If you think #6120 and #6121 are bad, give an ear to the SOUREST bell in the R46 fleet, just one car down the bunch: #6119.
(((((SOUR!!!!))))
I wonder what #6118 sounds like..
ALSO: #5927: "The Fixx: 'Stand Or Fall'" A followed by F.
wayne
6118 is actually normal believe it or not. But 6120 is my favorite car to operate out of, especially on the F or R. I open my window and listen to the chime "bweeeeng bwooong".
6104 is cool too. It gives the same chime as the old style R44.
Hey, Wayne, should we be on the lookout for 6119 on the 26th?:-)
I suppose so; it could be on the "F" or the "R" (don't think the "G"), or perhaps even the "E" these days; quite a few R46 showing up there for whatever reason.
wayne
Some of our LRVs in Denver have out-of-tune chimes. Nothing like hearing a series of beep-beep-beeps with the F# out-of-whack.
An r38s brakes hunmmed to the beginning of simcity 2000
This may have been discussed before but what the heck - we'll discuss again!!
There is an ad for Beth Israel featuring a young woman sitting in the Lotus position on a subway seat.
I have been unable to read the signal plate in the window to her left
and was wondering if anyone knows where this photo was taken. There are 2 sets of signal heads in the window which is adding to the conufsion. (Then I would know if the train was made of of R44, R46, or R68/68A cars).
Allan
The train is definitely an R-44 or 46 look closely at the light fixtures above her head. You can see a bit of the tan formica wall too. I feel it may be an R-46 on the F or G around Smith-Ninth. Just A guess.
Peace,
ANDEE
Enough is Enough, We all have to admit tempers is beginning to flare. I'll definately admit, I'm one of them. I apologize for my actions to the board, BUT I will not continue to be slandered by said poster(s). Thus reflecting my attitude.
Bygones.
Trevor Logan
www.transitalk.com
Here's an idea:
Any SubTalker who has a comment about another SubTalker... email it directly to him/her and keep it off the board. I think that will help
keep this board pleasant for all of us.
Speaking for myself, I'm "here" to learn and exchange information about the subways and related topics. The rest of the nonesense
I can do without. Thanks.
There will be a big GO on the IRT this weekend:
2: Downtown service run on the Lex from 149-Nevins
3: From 148-TS
4: All stops in Brooklyn to NL
5: Downtown Service run on 7Av Express to Chambers then use the SF loop to BG.
All stations from Park to Nevins will not have downtown service. Do any one know what type of work is being done during this GO???
3Train#1977Mike
Hey Mike!
Are you going to ride the 5 thru the loop over the weekend? A must see for subway buffs alike.
As to what they could be doing, you're guess is as good as mine. The 2 runs through South Ferry at Night because of that same work.
Nothing new to report on the R-142 end, other than 6306 sticking her shiny head out of the barn at East 180th St.
-Stef
Last weekend I took a trip down
memory lane.. and a 2 thru South Ferry..
Quite a view, I tellya.. felt like 1985
all over again...
Damn skippy, I am!!!!!! Hopefully Ill get some film to take pics. I will railfan on the 5 loop to BG........
3TM
I went through the area last night. They are doing a concrete pour on the downtown track at park Place. The new ties are in place and it is awaiting the concrete.
Somebody take some pictures and post them for me! I'll be stuck here in Tacoma, America's No. 1 Wired City (or at least that's how our ad campaign goes)
Intersting announcement:
This is Rector st. 5 to Bowling Green, South Ferry next.
This is South Ferry. 5 to Dyre Ave, Bowling Green next.
Of course, maybe they'll just run light from Chambers to Bowling Green like on emergency reroutes.
The TA management doesn't want to hold things up for the 1 getting into South Ferry, so expect that the 5's will run express from Chambers St to Bowling Green CARRYING passengers from 7th Avenue who need to connect with the 2 or the 4 to Brooklyn (at Bowling Green).
-Stef
The switch from the uptown local track to the express track north of 125th St has been cut out. Is a major GO for Lexington Av on the way?
-Stef
This morning while waiting for a 4, a 3 pulled in and I just happen to look at the motorwoman and she had a lit cigarette in her hand. I know this practice is not allowed. What are the penalties for this type of action??
3Train#2141Mike
Lung cancer, heart disease, and eventual death.
I don't know the penalties but there are a number of transit supervisors on this board so unless you enjoy getting people in trouble you shouldn't post things like this on the board.
By the way, a short story about motormen smoking. When I was a little tyke I was on a BMT Standard with my grandmother on the Sea Beach. Some of you oldtimers remember the green cab door had a little window on it on the standards where you could watch the motorman drive. I noticed he was smoking and knocked on the door-when he opened I said "You're not allowed to smoke on the train. He replied: "Little boys should be seen and not heard" (I know, Pigs, thats ageism)
I don't know the penalties but there are a number of transit supervisors on this board so unless you enjoy getting people in trouble you shouldn't post things like this on the board.
An interesting response from someone in your line of work. Actually, it's kind of interesting in any case. Think about the underlying cultural bias it reflects, pretty much universal in this country, against the enforcement of most laws and regulations. Since we made these laws and regulations ourselves, through our elected representatives, it it would be more logical to believe in their enforcement. But we don't.
i have a concern about saying something on this message board that will create problems for a worker... i guess part of it involves being viewed as a spy by subway or bus workers...
perhaps if we feel we have witnessed something very wrong, it might be best to directly inform the powers at be, rather than identify the worker on a public forum...
i have seen people here describe getting into a conversation with a train operator, and then go on to identify when they were riding the train... i think this puts the operator at risk...
what do you think?
Well...the original poster did not ID the T/O per se...no station, car numbers, NB, SB etc. But still in all, I would never Rat on a TA employee for commiting an infraction via this board. They can risk being ratted out by their own co-workers, there are plenty of them around.
Peace,
ANDEE
I agree with the SubwaySurfer, i.e. if the individual isn't robbing or killing someone vs. smoking, etc. I think it's up to the mngt. to catch them, not me.
Even in my own company (speaking figuratively) if the employee doesn't work for me, his/her supervisor tends NOT to appreciate me pointing out something they are doing wrong. Now if they caused an injury, were involved in an accident, got hurt on the job while drunk ... this would be a different matter, but smoking, as long as they aren't blowing it in my face, I'll look the other way.
Mr t__:^)
Personally, I don't smoke and I find it offensive. The TA has rules and policies covering smoking in common areas. However, not having witnessed the infraction, I would not take any action without a formal complaint from the person who actually observed the offending act. On the other hand, knowing what we do about 2nd hand smoke, I find it incredible that people view the train operator's act as victimless.
I thought of it more as a job violation rather than a law, but then again there is a law against smoking on the subway.
I thought of it more as a job violation rather than a law, but then again there is a law against smoking on the subway.
>>> there is a law against smoking on the subway. <<<
Even though it is against the law, I wouuld not make a citizen's arrest of a smoking T/O or passenger. It is not worth the time I would have to take to testify about the incident in court.
Tom
I don't know the penalties but there are a number of transit supervisors on this board so unless you enjoy getting people in trouble you shouldn't post things like this on the board.
It is illegal for anyone to smoke on the subways. If a T/O or C/R is caught smoking, they should be fined. They have NO right to smoke !!!!
I agree 100%. Last week when I stated how I some times swipe when I exit , as my form of protest for the lousy service I recieve on my trip I was advised I was theft of service, a crime the party who used the green arrow at the turnstile! Yet I hear the same voices saying the crime of SMOKING on the property should be overlooked because of the paperwork, or ratting out is not worth it is far worse! Its a crime, a HEALTH HAZARD, a potential FIRE HAZARD, and must be stomped out. No pun intented. The enforcement people are NOT the judges. If its a visitor , make them aware of the LAW with a stern warning. A native rider of employee, Ticket and FINE and written up and Fired with too many infractions. Its an addiction . They should seek hepl or some other job.
Fumin'
avid
He replied: "Little boys should be seen and not heard" (I know, Pigs, thats ageism)
It certainly is! It's one of the most revolting statements around.
Good response to it (this is not addressed to you, it would be addressed to somebody who says that): Big idiots should neither be seen, nor heard.
By the time you think up all these great come backs and get the moxy to use them you're too old for it to be an issue anymore.
Im not trying to get anyone in trouble, I just wanted to know if there are any disciplinary actions against train operators or TA personnel for that matter that smoke on the job.... Sorry for the misconception......
3TM
Motorperson.
Train Operator
Female motorman!!
10/03/2000
Or how about a lame description occasionally used by the news media........
DRIVER !!
Bill "Newkirk"
[Or how about a lame description occasionally used by the news media........
DRIVER !!]
Last Saturday in the cab of Reading FP7 #902 on display at the Wilmington Transportation Festival, a grandmother told her grandkid, who was sitting in the engineer's seat, "This is where the driver steers the train."
That's what an engineer is called in the UK and I wouldn't be against putting it with a subway T/O because there is little engineering involved.
10/05/2000
[That's what an engineer is called in the UK and I wouldn't be against putting it with a subway T/O because there is little engineering involved.]
I guess that's a difference in cultures. Conductors over there are called "guards". That has a different meaning over here, (ex. security guard). Call me old fashioned, but I'm still partial to motorman, the trolley term.
Bill "Newkirk"
Am I the only one on the site that thinks of a "driver" as a person that has the ability to steer his vehicle?
No, because I addressed this subject some time ago on this forum. Fixed guideway vehicles (satisfied with that definition?) are not operated by "drivers". End of discussion.
>>> a "driver" as a person that has the ability to steer his vehicle? <<<
The idea that driving is equated with steering probably comes from the universality of automobiles in the American culture. The word "drive" is more closely related to "propel" rather than "guide." They are the 1st and 3rd definitions respectively in Webster's Collegiate Dictionary. So the driver as a person who propels a vehicle, and therefore the English usage of "train driver," makes as much sense as "engineer" or "motorman."
To quote George Bernard Shaw: "England and America are two countries separated by the same language."
Tom
"The idea that driving is equated with steering probably comes from the universality of automobiles in the American culture."
Don't forget that the operators of wagons, stagecoaches and buckboards were called drivers as well. Their steering was done with the reins.
I guess I am getting too old, but it just makes me shudder when I hear a newscaster refer to an engineer, motorman or T/O as a driver!
This is most likely due to the fact that most (TV) "newscasters" were born after 1960 and have no knowledge of anything but automobiles.
A recent study of some High School students revealed that few know all the states in the Union, a goody percentage believe Canada is part of the US and World War II came right after WWI and the US lost the first one. 25% of the students polled don't recognize the name Lyndon Johnson or Fidel Castro.
I fear for the Republic.
>>> operators of wagons, stagecoaches and buckboards were called drivers as well. Their steering was done with the reins. <<<
That's certainly true, although someone riding on a horse and steering with reins was not called a driver, and those steering multiple horses were often called "teamsters".
Tom
The penalty would be a $75 fine plus a suspension.
Depends on WHAT she was smoking...;-)
BMTman
ALWAYS the comic
Peace,
ANDEE
does anyone know from personal experience or the experience of someone they trust, what the color of roasted or broiled rat is?
heypaul, do you think Sea Beach Fred have a clue?
In some countries I hear it's makes a mighty hearty meal.
Yummmmy! (I think NOT!)
BMTman
How did I get involved in this one? I did write about the rats I saw when I was in New York in '99. But cooking them and eating them. Repulsive to say the least. And I have no clue as to what they would look or taste like. Somebody from the Bronx might----oooooops.
Is it true that you can use a fishing pole with baited hooks to cacht rats in the subway?
Sounds like a plan. Any volunteers out there to give it a whirl. A good place would be on the IRT #3 or 4 near Boroough Hall.
Chambers Street IRT (1/2/3/9). In one of my videos, I taped one walking on the tracks there (and there were 5 others scampering about). It was big. Could have probably fed a family of two for a week :)
--Mark
Yuk! But you have to admit those creatures are fascinating. I think if there was a nuclear holocaust the rats and cockroaches could survive.
You might have to check with heypaul on that one.
I only have experience with the two-legged variety. ;-)
BMTman
Back in the spring of 2000 , The daring DUO fought the Evil forces and Farces of the "KINGFISH" ,Rat was on the Menu then ....
Check back if they are still accessible
avid
[How did I get involved in this one?]
Well, Fred, haven't you eaten crow in the past? I thought rat might taste similar.
BMTman
BMT: With friends like you I don't need any enemies. You'd think you'd have something better for me to dine on. How about a nice plate of Linguini with red clam sauce. That epitomizes my taste a lot more than those creatures in the sky or those pathetic specimens in the bowels ofthe subway.
I once read that there is no human culture anywhere in the world, no matter how primitive, that includes rats as part of its normal diet except in times of extreme hardship. Squeamishness is not necessarily the issue. Rats are said to provide so little meat that they're simply not worth the effort to catch.
Pete: During the Civil War while Grant way laying seige to Vicksburg in the spring of 1863, much of the population was reduced to eating rats---which that filthy rebel traitor Jeff Davis said he believed to be quite edible. Of course Davis never had to eat one himself, even though he himself was a rat of the human variety.
Jeff Davis ... was a rat of the human variety.
Whoa! How dare you slander the name of the greatest President of my country!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Anon: You are a work of art. Your Country? Ha! The Confederacy was never a country, it was a province in rebellion against the duly elected government of the United States----in other words, Rebels and Traitors. But time has passed and we are all in the same boat again, and I applaud you loyalty to the South. Where? North Carolina, I think you said is where you lived. Ever been to Monroe? Had a great time there in '73. Take care.
#4 Sea Beach Fred
Just ask any of the cast of CBS' "Survior" show!!
Why don't you try it and get back to us?
--Mark
Very simelar to rabit, but depending on their feed, the taste may vary from grain fed chichen to carion fed crow. May require spices herbs. Rats are omniverious.
avid
A GO started yesterday on the Canarsie Line that involves work on the Broadway Junction platform (northbound side). Apparently, demolition/restructuring work has commenced on the southern end preventing safe operation of doors on the last three cars of the train. The C/T made an annoucment at Atlantic Ave. that people getting off at B'way Junction would have to move forward to the conductor's car in order to the exit the train.
I would assume that this GO is part of the preliminary work prior to the anticipated major overhaul that is due for the Canarsie Line El structure at that point.
I will keep this site posted on any new developments on this project.
BMTman
I'm wondering, is the R-142 train still running on the #2 line, and is the old R-142 schedule (on Oren's web site) still valid? I tried to catch it Brooklyn-bound a week or so ago at 34th Street/Penn Station at about 5:45 P.M., but I didn't see it. I waited until 6:10, then I got on a redbird. I am just dying to ride an R-142 train.
- Lyle Goldman
I hear it is and I hear it isn't. With revenue testing almost over, the time is coming to take it down...
I hear the testing is finished already. Does that mean it will not be running for a while?
- Lyle
Well, now they're doing a 2 week modification test, what ever that means, at the E180 street shop and the Westchester yard. When the 2 weeks is up, it will undergo a new 15 day road test.
Last night about 10:35pm heading Northbound was 6311-6320 running simulated service on the 2 Express to 241st Street/White Plains Road. She was flying as I waited at 59th Street for the slow poke local. Does anyone know if that second unit is modified to the new standards set in place by the TA? Thanks in advance!
Peace & Blessings
DaShawn
www.transitworld.org
thats the second one alright. the first one was 6301-6310 which did the 30 day test now sitting in E. 180th. either simulated service or passenger service it was in. i'm not too sure of what type. i guess bombardier is on a roll now.
"I am just dying to ride an R-142 train."
Oh don't do *that*.
I'm sure you'll get to ride on it soon enough.
Certainly sooner than I will...
I haven't even seen a 62 let alone riden on one.
Elias
I got one at 9:28AM on Saturday - I'm not sure if that still holds water, though.
wayne
I heard that the over the past weekend during the day, the F train was not running south of Kings Highway. What exactly were they doing to warrant this service disruption?
- Lyle Goldman
Oops. It's this upcoming weekend, not lest weekend. I guess I got my
dates mixed up.
Anyway, what are they doing?
- Lyle Goldman
I'm trying to find out when there first was subway service from Brooklyn to Manhattan.
Anyone know the date (approximate or exact)?
Thanks!
Jonathan Rand
>>> I'm trying to find out when there first was subway service from Brooklyn to Manhattan. <<<
Did you check the history of the IRT and BMT on this website?
Tom
I believe it was 7/10/1905, or slightly thereafter (Bowling Green station opened on that date; I can't find any specific date for Borough Hall at least not on the web), the portion of the current #4/#5 from Bowling Green to Borough Hall. We don't have a list of the opening dates on this site, but look here.
The "Diamond Jubilee" poster I have in my office indicates the year the Borough Hall station opened was 1908.
--Mark
[The "Diamond Jubilee" poster I have in my office indicates the year the Borough Hall station opened was 1908.]
So does a tablet inside the Borough Hall station.
>>> We don't have a list of the opening dates on this site <<<
Dave;
You underestimate yourself. Look at the IRT timeline on this site. It lists the extension of service to Borough Hall as 1/09/08. That would be the earliest subway service between Manhattan and Brooklyn.
Tom
But wouldn't you also count elevated service between Brooklyn and NYC.
When did service start running over the Brooklyn Bridge.
Elias
I think cable service started across the Brooklyn Bridge in 1896?
Through service started in the early 1900s.
--Mark
IIRC, a cable was used on the Brooklyn Bridge until electrification because of fear that steam engines would cause sympathetic vibration and possible collapse. John Roebling himself (or possibly Washington Roebling) said there was no problem with running steam engines, but he was ignored.
IIRC, a cable was used on the Brooklyn Bridge until electrification because of fear that steam engines would cause sympathetic vibration and possible collapse. John Roebling himself (or possibly Washington Roebling) said there was no problem with running steam engines, but he was ignored.
The Brooklyn Bridge had and still has a fairly low live load capacity - 1760 lb/ft. Running steam locomotives in the numbers required by service demands would have exceeded this limit. Steam locomotives were used for switching and at night when the cables underwent maintenance. The bridge had been modified prior to its opening to permit standard size Pullman cars. There had been talk of a direct rail connection with the Hudson Line.
Weight considerations had kept trolleys off the bridge for quite a while. They were to be no closer than 600 feet, when they were finally permitted on the bridge. Within a month of their introduction, there was a traffic jam that caused the bridge to be bumper to bumper in trolleys. The bridge suffered its only major structural damage as a result. The 5 foot dips in the roadway at towers were not part of the original design but as a result of this overloading.
According to George Hilton's opus The Cable Car in America, commercial service on the Brooklyn Bridge began on September 24, 1883.
The Bridge opened on May 24, 1883 and the railway had a test run on August 8, 1883.
Through service was effectuated on November 1, 1898, when the Brooklyn Elevated connected to the Bridge Railway at Tillery Street, Brooklyn.
Cable operation of the Bridge Railway ended on January 27, 1908, a decade or so after it ceased to be necessary or useful.
Elevated service lasted until 1944.
Through service was effectuated on November 1, 1898, when the Brooklyn Elevated connected to the Bridge Railway at Tillery Street,
Brooklyn.
Cable operation of the Bridge Railway ended on January 27, 1908, a decade or so after it ceased to be necessary or useful.
Actually the bridge tracks were electrified in 1896. Electric engines replaced steam for switching and emergency propulsion.
The first though service was cable powered. Cable cars were coupled onto electric powered El trains at Sands St for the trip over the bridge.
Cable operation continued until 1908 because of its high capacity - 90 tph. Space was limited at Park Row. This station was not enlarged until 1908.
When cable service finally came to an end, they installed a block system on the bridge. Each block was 100 feet long. They were able to enforce 700' spacing and maintain 50 tph operation.
I've seen 1895 as the date that 3rd rail was installed for
lighting and heating purposes. At some point ca. 1896,
electric propulsion was tried out. AFAIK, "electric engines",
i.e. dedicated locomotives, were not used. A type "L"
controller (aka a "coffee grinder") was mounted on the open
platform to control the motors on that car only, which pulled
the other cars. Sprague introduced MU in 1897-1898 and
the Brooklyn Union system quickly standardized on that.
I've never heard of through service with the cable being used.
What were the dates of that operation?
Do you know how they dealt with the car width issue?
Brooklyn Bridge cable cars were 10' wide, while all of
the el cars were 8'9".
Common sense. "Mind the Gap!" Society was far less litigous back then.
-Hank (who doesn't think he spelled it right)
I'm sure the conductors, and no doubt there were more of them then, also repeated, "Watch your step." Common sense does work, something today's society fails to grasp.
I've seen 1895 as the date that 3rd rail was installed for lighting and heating purposes. At some point ca. 1896, electric propulsion was tried out.
"The Brooklyn Bridge railway was electrified in November 1896...", from The Tracks of New York, Part 2. There is sufficient ambiguity for you to be correct.
AFAIK, "electric engines", i.e. dedicated locomotives, were not used. A type "L" controller (aka a "coffee grinder") was mounted on the open platform to control the motors on that car only, which pulled
the other cars.
I believe I came across the use of dedicated locomotives, when I did my researches on the Brooklyn Bridge 18 years ago. I could be mistaken. My interest at that time was the design and modification to the Bridge before and immediately after its opening. I don't recall ever seeing any photos of an electric dummy in use on the Brooklyn Bridge.
Sprague introduced MU in 1897-1898 and the Brooklyn Union system quickly standardized on that.
We're agreed that they did not use MU operation. Didn't Sprague introduce Chicago to MU's in 1893?
I've never heard of through service with the cable being used. What were the dates of that operation?
I picked this one up from reading the net. The author is generally a reliable source of information. I suppose going through back issues of the Brooklyn Eagle and the reports of the East River Bridge Company are in order for corroboration
Do you know how they dealt with the car width issue? Brooklyn Bridge cable cars were 10' wide, while all of the el cars were 8'9".
They never tried to operate the cable cars past Bridge Yard :-) On a more serious note - the BMT, BOT and TA successfully operated 9 foot wide el cars and 10 foot wide cars on the same line until 1969. The original els were designed for 8'9" wide cars. The dual contract el's were designed or modified for 10' wide cars. No special modification was made to the el cars until the introduction of the "C" types in the 1920's and the 1957 rehab of the Q cars. Unmodified BU cars operated in 10' territory until 1958.
I am glad to see that a thread for the Brooklyn Bridge transit ops.
I have a question about the Park Row Terminal.
When the structure was extended across the street to City Hall Park, (date of the extension?) was that extension ever planned for a extension of the Manhattan (2nd/3rd Ave El) to have a cross platform terminal with the Brooklyn El. At that time, both systems were steam operated, so, there would have been no interchange service over the bridge. Later on, (by the time the els were electrified) the terminal structure was cut back to Park Row (date?).
How did the proposed Brooklyn - Manhattan Bridge Transit Loop figure into the Park Row terminal structure expansion and retraction?
When the structure [Park Row] was extended across the street to City Hall Park, (date of the extension?)
1907
was that extension ever planned for a extension of the Manhattan (2nd/3rd Ave El) to have a cross platform terminal with the Brooklyn El.
There had been a walkway between the Third Ave El City Hall El station and Park Row. It was torn down, when Park Row was extended in 1907. The 2nd Ave El did not enter City Hall until 1916. By then the City Hall Station was enlarged into an enclosed 4 track two level terminal.
Later on, (by the time the els were electrified) the terminal structure was cut back to Park Row (date?).
1935
How did the proposed Brooklyn - Manhattan Bridge Transit Loop figure into the Park Row terminal structure expansion and retraction?
Not at all. The expansion and retraction for Park Row was dictated by traffic demand. 1908 marked its peak use. The introduction of the IRT into Brooklyn followed by the commercial move to midtown and the Dual Contract subway lines spelled its decline.
Thanks very much.
There are always so many qestions about the NYC & Brooklyn El operations that disappeared long before most of us were born or were able to comprehend them.
When the first subway was built there (under Park Row) did the subway incease the amount of traffic in the area and was that the reason for the Brooklyn Bridge terminal expansion?
>>Sprague introduced MU in 1897-1898 and the Brooklyn Union system quickly standardized on that.
>We're agreed that they did not use MU operation. Didn't Sprague introduce Chicago to MU's in 1893?
Sprague had an odd relationship with GE. He developed and
tested MU at GE's test track in Schenectady NY but effectively
bid against GE in the South Side Elevated RR (Chicago)
electrification. The year was 1897, not 1893. Sprague won
out over GE's proposal to use electric locomotives and then
Sprague effectively sub-contracted to GE to build the equipment.
He approached the Brooklyn system in 1897-1898 (I'm not sure
which of the many companies that eventually formed the BRT was
involved) and was awarded a small trial contract. There is
a
fairly well-known picture of Sprague on the platform of
a BU car in July 1898 in BB yard. Eventually the bulk of the
Brooklyn electrification was given to Westinghouse who produced
a cross-licensed, electropneumatic version of Sprague's design.
Now, a question about this joint cable-el car operation: Did the
el cars provide the motive power across the span or the cable?
I remembered the 1893 date from reading "Fares Please". I gave that book away 25 years ago. Clearly, they or I am mistaken.
It will take me some time to research the cable car question. As I stated, I was repeating second hand information from a reliable source. One thought is that some of the through trains may have been hauled by steam. The bridge railway did not have a sufficient number of electric cars, so cable propulsion may not have been unreasonable. Again, only supposition.
The bridge operation was the classical example of engineering overkill. Two sets of of cables, gauntlet track, steam engines and a third rail - all operating simultaneously.
Oh yeah? Cool. :) You forget what you have after a while...
There was train service between Park Row and Sands St for 25 years prior to the opening of the IRT subway service. Rail service over the Brooklyn Bridge started in September 1883, 4 months after the Bridge's opening.
Through service with Brooklyn's Els started in 1898 making it possible to travel from Brooklyn's hinterlands to Manhattan without a change of trains. Comparable subway service did not appear until 1914.
Does anyone know where I can get train schedules from? I looked everywhere and could not find them.
Try the NYC MTA page. It has the train schedule of every Subway line in PDF format... To make it ultra-easy for you, here is the page you want to get to...
http://www.mta.nyc.ny.us/nyct/service/index.html
Then click on a circle.
Either follow the instructions given by Mr.Rabbin or if you want actual issues of the schedules, do the following:
LIRR: Penn Station or Jamaica station concourses have schedules for all lines.
NJT/Amtrak: Penn Station in New York and Newark have schedules readily available.
NYCTA: The customer information center located in the lobby of 370 Jay Street has the schedules for all subway lines as well as most TA bus lines. Open from 8am-4pm Mon-Fri (A,C,F to Jay St/M,N,R to Lawrence St.)
MNRR: Grand Central Terminal, oddly until recently you had to ask at the info booth for a full route schedule. Now they keep them in stacks around the booth, though not always.
NJT: Hoboken customer service booth is the only place you can get the MNRR Port Jervis / Pascack schedule. You can also get everything else NJT (incl. Atlantic City) and even a map (zerox copy, though I have one of the blue ones from when they first offered that map).
i don't know if anyone mentioned the 1 page article in this sunday's times magazine on page 22... the article described some of the design features of the r-142..
of particular interest to my twisted mind was the comments about the front made by masamichi udagawa, one of the leaders of antenna design, the consultants on the r-142 design...
summarizing his points:
1) the front should be immediately distinguishable, so as to make a statement about your tax money at work...
2) people could relate more to objects that look like themselves, so they made the front like a face...
the author of the article, janet abrams, then went on to comment that she felt it looked more like a "friendly caterpillar" what with its "black mask around the window, a red shroud around the headlights, and a bright l.e.d. sign for the line number."
combining some of the images in my own twisted way it could be said:
1) the black mask around the eyes makes a statement of what is happening to your tax dollars
2) a shroud around the headlights invokes the image of death or mourning...
3) the front, looking like a friendly caterpillar, might portend the transformation of the r-142's into r-62's after their coming respite at 207th st. shops
The article is still online as of Tuesday morning.
I looked at this article while some guy was reading it this past Sunday on the 7 train. Tried looking for Sunday's paper both yesterday and today in the Queens College Library, but I couldn't find it.
I looked at this article while some guy was reading it this past Sunday on the 7 train. Tried looking for Sunday's paper both yesterday and today in the Queens College Library, but I couldn't find it. I thought you would now pay $2.50 to read this article, but now I get it for free. :-)
While articles in the daily sections expire in day, weekly articles (like in the magazine) expire in a week.
Sometimes they stay longer, I just know that the magazine expires after a week.
And anyway, as a CUNY student, don't you have access to LEXIS/NEXIS?
What are the fastest cars you ever rode on?
Now after field shunting the fleet seems so slow. Really hate it when the train maxes out at 30 MPH.
With some of the old cars, 60 MPH was possible.
Down here in Philly, The PATCO trains are very fast, originally can do 75 mph, but governed down to 65. The B-IV's and The Almond Joys are tied for 2nd, can do 65. The M-4's are not fast at all.
what about the Norristowns?
The N-5 cars, believe it or not, are not as fast as the old Brill bullets. They are fast (if you don't mind breakdowns, typical of anything built by ABB/Adtranz), can do 65. The bullets were capable of doing 75, due to the research that was put into.
How fast could the Strafford cars go? There was one particular motorman who used to delight in frightening the passengers by running so fast that we thought we'd become airborne. Of course, I enjoyed it.
The 60's could MOVE!! Occaisionly a 60 would be assigned to a Bryn Mawr local that left 69th Street at 5:30, with a Norristown Express with a Bullet 5 minutes behind. There were motorman who run so fast that the motorman of the Bullet only saw green signals to Ardmore. After that, the Bullet got yellows until Bryn Mawr.
The 60's had their group switch box mounted over the door on the #1 end. With a hotrod at the controller, the group switch was advancing so fast that the usual psst-click, psst-click became psst-braap!!
The car would be running very close to 65 and a 30 pound reduction was usually needed for the local stop at Wynnwood Road.
As soon as the last person was clear of the door, the brakes came off and controller was rapped up before he reached for the door handle.
The N-5's will never be the equals of either the Bullets or the 60's.
In New York, the R40 slants, with the right TO, can do about 60 in the 60th Street Tunnel. A train of 40-slants I was on about a year ago did 59.
I think WMATA trains are faster, though. Once I remember being on an Orange or Blue Line train between Foggy Bottom and Rosslyn. The lights in the tunnel passed in a blur.
I saw 77 MPH on the WMATA Red Line just south of Grosvenor. That was a fun run.
I saw 80 on the BART Blue line, THAT was cool...
And I saw 85 while heading out to Oakland in 1981. Smokin'! That topped 'em all in my book.
The fastest run only on the Bart system (bay eara rapid transit) . That's in California for some of us who don't know, those trains move at 80mph. You'll be in the train right along side a highway and you'll passing cars. now that's fast!
At NYCTA when trains used to operate fast I'd have to put the R-62 at the top. They were awesome. Also - the Slant R-40 were a blast. Outside of NYC I find WMATA's Metrorail to be very fast and they accelerate quickly too.
Wayne
From the last time I heard, WMATA slow their trains down to 58 MPH.
Now it seems the fastest transit line is the Broad St Subway in Philly. Last time I was there the train I was on hit 62.
The fastest accelerating train I would say the Norristown Line(route 100) in Philly. The rate must be at least 6 MP/S.
I didn't know about that. What I can tell you is that recently I was riding a Blue line train between Rosslyn and Foggy Bottom that easily exceeded 70 MPH.
Wayne
The area between Howard Beach and Broad Channel, R42 A trains seem to hit 50 mph.
I think that the R-10's were the fastest cars in the NYCTA,
especially in the area between Howard Beach and Broad Channel.
Yeah, until now. It seems like these new trains are like rockets.
Well, the fastest cars from a technical standpoint were the R44/46's, which were meant to have a top balancing speed of up to 80 MPH. In reality, all IRT and any 60' cars can do 50+, as can the R44/46.
The R68's? Slow, really slow.
The 2nd Ave. line was designed to permit 70 mph speeds, and the R-44s and R-46s were designed with that in mind. We all know what happened along the way.
I'll second that. The R-10s were fast, period. I was on an A train on July 17, 1969 which must have gotten up to 55, if not 60, on the Howard Beach-to-Broad Channel portion. Once we cleared the bridge, all bets were off. That train took off like a rocket.
Needless to say, a CPW express jaunt on a Thundering Herd was sheer bliss.
What!? The red line between Fort totten and takoma regualry goes upwords of 70.
Now it seems the fastest transit line is the Broad St Subway in Philly. Last time I was there the train I was on hit 62.
BART routinely exceeds 62 on almost every line in existence. Actualy the only BART line that DOESN'T hit at least 75 at some point is the Red Line, due to the frequency of stops and the curves. The L.A. Red line hits 75 in the tunnel to North Hollywood. And Portland LRV operators exceed the 55-mph speed limit when off schedule and have hit 65 while I was watching
That's not WMATA you dope, it's CHICAGO that puts the 58-mph governor on trains
I will give you a platinum second on that post! The R62's were soo fast, along with the R40/40M's. Those were the days! Outside of NYC WMATA Metrorail is the real deal! The speed and acceleration are excellent!
Peace & Blessings
DaShawn
www.transitworld.org
Yesterday I was on a train of R62 cars that almost did 50 mph between 14th and 42nd.
I haven't been so lucky, although I was on a southbound 4 train last fall which got up to 40 at around 23rd St. That's a nice straightaway for express runs.
* how about a ""bullet pcc trolley car"" for high speed ??
Now that is a one I had not thought of! I always wondered about the PCC's they used on the Skoie Swift in Chi-Town, Any comments on that?
Peace & Blessings
DaShawn
www.transitworld.org
They weren't PCCs, they were new cars built from salvaged PCC parts. The infamous green and white 6000 and 5-50 series cars in Chicago (which were used on the Skokie Swift and all other lines at certain points) lasted for nearly 50 years before being withdrawn from service completely in 1993. They were very well-liked and are sorely missed by railfans and even some riders. They had no air conditioning, but the drop down railfan window in front certainly made up for it.
And they were noisy as hell in the State St. subway. The first 200 cars, 6001-6200, were built from all-new components. They can be identified from the ones built from salvaged Green Hornet parts by their straight side doors. The doors on cars 6201-6720 flared out along with the rest of the carbody.
If you're talking about the Bullet cars that ran on The Norristown Line, then they are (or should i say "were") not PCC's.
I do'nt know about a "bullet PCC" but I'd sure like to see a 79-mph tolerance LRV. There's no reason why Light Rail can't attain the same speed as a railroad. Granted, one of the characteristics of Light Rail is the lack of timed signals, tripcocks, or any other automatic shut-off device so exceeding 79 isn't needed. But why do all LRVs have to crawl along at 55? Is there some unwritten rule of LRV design that says "thou shalt not exceed 55" or something?
Abe
10/04/2000
I would like to hear from some train operators who post here that since the inception of speedometers in cabs, what class subway car they operated was the fastest and what top speed ?
Bill "Newkirk"
Depends, most trains are very sluggish but from personal experience, about 10% of every car class has very fast speed capabilities. It will only show if you get more than one married pair in a consist that reacts like this.(Example: at least 4 cars out of a 10 car SMEE train or at least 2 married pairs out of 5).
Most R44's and 38's will do about 42 mph on the Rockaway flats, but I had a R44 two months ago that did 55 and did at least 40 between every station. And I had a R38 that was very quick on Sunday but I went only as far as Lefferts. That R44 was the fastest train that I had ever operated and I haven't seen it since. You never know what kind of train you'll get until you operate it.
I was on an R46 on the E and that was one of the fastest Queens Blvd runs on the E I had in a while. Later I had an R44 on the A. Did quite well along CPW, better than the R38 I was on last time on that stretch.
I do think R44's and R46's are the best damn trains in the system!!
Only problem I got with them is there's no railfan window!
BART in the Transbay Tube. Saw 80mph on the speedometer. I was on an "A" car which offers a partial railfan view.
--Mark
That's what I've been saying all along, BART is the fastest Heavy Rail in the US, even if you don't count the transbay tube every line STILL hits 75+ except for the Red and all go 80 through the tube.
Abe
BART
Here's a cross post from my news service:
Norfolk Southern will be undertaking various track work on the east end of the Southern Tier Line. On Monday, October 9, work will commence over a 3,160-foot section, between milepost 75.3 and 75.6. In order to avoid serious delays, Metro-North will bus passenger that normally ride trains 51 and 60, between Otisville and Port Jervis, New York.
On Tuesday, October 10, work will be ongoing in three locations: Milepost 37.4 to milepost 37.6, 1056 feet; Milepost 35.8 to milepost 35.9, 500 feet; and Milepost 35.5 to milepost 35.7, 1000 feet. Metro-North trains 51, 60, 53, and 62 will be substituted by buses between Sloatsburg and Harriman, New York. NS will have absolute out of service limits will be between milepost 35 and milepost 44.
Wednesday, October 11 and Thursday, October 12, will see continued work between milepost 32.2 and 32.6, a stretch of 2,160 feet on Number One and Number Track, one each day. No busing will be required, due to the double track territory in this location. -CRTS
I just read that a MARTA train that had all the seats occupied was shot at around 8:30 pm last night on the south line. The article said that the bullet did not go all the way through the window, but left a hole and spider webs on the window. How strong are subway windows? They can't seem to resist scratchiti, but they can stop bullets?
My dad was sitting in the railfan seat of a PATCO train was it sped through Camden on his way hone from work. The train was doing about 60 when I brick lofted up from an underpass. It hit the window w/ a loud bang, but the window remained intact. I find this story a little hard to believe because upon recent inspection I found the passenger side window to be rather flimsey and I could flex it inward with my hand. The driver's window was rock solid. Is it right to protect the driver from projectiles and not the passengers as well?
>>> I found the passenger side window to be rather flimsey and I could flex it inward with my hand. The driver's window was rock solid. <<<
Flexing and breaking are two different things. It is possible that the flexibility of the window makes it much less likely to shatter when hit by a thrown object. If you are talking about the driver's windshield as being rock hard, it would have to be much stronger than side windows since anything thrown which hit the front of the train will have the speed of the train to be considered. The railfan window did not flex did it? If you mean the side window in the cab, if it is smaller in area than the passenger side windows, or it opens, a different type of window might make better engineering sense.
Tom
The drivers front window did not flex, but the Railfan Window on the passenger's side could be easily flexed and I feelt I would break it if I pressed too hard.
Could be Lexan. In response to lineside debris tossing, SIR replaced the windows on their R44 with plexiglas (this was pre-rebuild) They quickly became opaque when they were cleaned with anti-grafitti chemicals. THey were able to resist cinder blocks. They would flex quite a bit, but wouldn't break. THey also leaked at the mouldings.
-Hank
The passengers', railfan, and door windows are either made of Lexan or Margard. The Driver's windshield, on the other hand, is made of Safety Glass, the same glass used in automobiles. I don't know if it has anything to do with federal law why the driver's windshield has to be Safety Glass. If anybody has answers, lemme know.
That's how bulletproof glass works. It isn't strong so much as it can dampen the speed of the bullet.
Lucky for you, How Stuff Works recently published an article about bulletproof glass.
How does "bulletproof" glass work?
The VN375 glass is either heat or chemically treated. It's made in two layers. It is supposed to stop a 9MM bullet. The vision glass on the R-46 will protect the operator from a cinder block at 40 MPH.
I think I read a while back, like ten years ago, in a photography book about the NY subway, that a brick was thrown though the window and the glass blinded the T/O. I don't know how long ago that was or what kind of train it was. Do you know when this type of glass was first used?
BTW, I think the book was simply titled, "Subway." A collection of photos of people riding the subway, and stories behind the pictures.
The booths do have bullet resistant glass.
Mechanics (ATU) and bus and rail supervisors (AFSCME) were expected to cross drivers' (UTU) picket lines in L.A. today to start getting buses and trains ready to roll in anticipation of an end to the strike, according to stories in the LA Times and Daily News on Tuesday. No buses or trains will be operated. A key issue was Gov Davis signing SB1101 protecting ATU contracts for 4 years in the case of spin-offs from the MTA. UTU contracts are already guaranteed.
I would not count on it the talks tonight here in pasadena california broke down the mechanics only half assed showed up
looks like the strike is still on & holding to me !!
Does the word PUNCTUATION mean anything to you?
question:? how do you "ENLARGE" your red letters so big like that ??
It does seem that your "head shrink" inside the creedmor mental hospital where you post from ( the computer room ) has taught you how to html post! Oh well I own an old mac g3 & I dont have a PC yet!!
Why they allow inerenet usage inside the creedmor facility is beyond me & especially mental midgets like yourself....
If he was able to "ENLARGE" red letters like that he wouldn't be mental. It is basic HTML and is "platform independent", ...er ............meaning it can be either on a PC or a Mac to code basic HTML.
* I own a old mac g 3 type I am not interested in posting in large red & or blue letters however I am all ears as to how to html post transit pictures inside the message boards here & what instruction manual you may reccomend i buy to self teach myself how to do it! thankz.
salaam allah
We tried, you failed miserably several times.
-Hank
There are a number of websites that offer HTML information. My favorite is D.J. Quad's Ultimate HTML Site, which contains a language reference and some tutorials.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
i bookmarked it thanks !
It may take a village to raise a child but every village needs a village idiot. LA has you, salaam. Don't forget to let me know when you come to NYC for operation redbird.
* you see folks what happens inside the creedmor nut ward ??
& they have the nerve to allow this nut to use the internet!!
you figure this out !!
Dude, I can't let this go. Does 'Close your HTML' mean anything to you?
-Hank :)
I realized that i didn't close it after I posted it.
Salaam is stressing me out so badly that I'm even making
HTML errors.
oh you poor little boy!
It may take a village to raise a child but every village needs a village idiot. LA has you, salaam. Don't forget to let me know when you come to NYC for operation redbird.
* WELL !! how are things from inside "THEY ARE COMING TO TAKE ME AWAY"
HA HA TO THE FUNNY FARM WITH CHIRPING BIRDS ETC.. ( inside creedmor )
However you ""head shrink"" there seems to not to be making any kind of progress with you!! They need to keep you away from the computer room inside the creedmor mental nut hospital where your last post came from!! Remember now stay away from the computer we all know how sick you really are !!!!!!!!!
Ha! Dr. Demento lives!
-Hank :)
Haven't you heard? The bird is the word. Well I'd sing more but I'm off to poison some pigeons in the park. Tata!
Salaam, Train Dude is a very intelligent individual. Now as for you, your posts are so ridiculous (I laughed my @$$ of at the "Creedmoor" posts)that many subtalkers believe that you too are a wealthy, intelligent black liberal who is putting on an act -- Fine, but stop putting down those who are in a position to give great insights into the operation,technology and administration of the New York City Subway system. Intelligent thoughtful discourse on controversial subjects will lead to solutions and friendships that will expand and improve your life, while putdowns and gibberish only burn bridges. SHOW YOUR INTELLIGENCE, CAN THE PUTDOWNS.
where does "train dude" show his intellgence? with those stupid large letters ranting & raving like an idiot? Anyway I was as usual & typical DEFENDING myself from all of the insults personal attacks & insults from your ""intellegent individual""give me a break please!!
I have never been a welathy person at all minimum wage hard working.
sometimes i even work out of the LABOR READY store.!!!
>>> Anyway I was as usual & typical DEFENDING myself from all of the insults personal attacks & insults <<<
Salaam;
How does calling names and ridiculing someone defend yourself?
Tom
* I do somewhat agree with somewhat, its only a few nuts on this board anyway. It started back when i posted i liked railfan windows on subway cars !!Then the nut ward cuts the inmates loose !! ( oh well )
Now they post on this forum much too often !!
Oh you poor little boy.
thats what we said about you ( inside the creedmor nut ward ).
I'm thinking of adding the ability to put in graphical smileys, sounds and canned quotes to the chat. The last one is simple and is just a list of things a chatter can call up to have the program say for him instead of typing it out. However my question lies with the first two. If I were to let people do that, then the sounds and pictures would have to be downloaded to the computer of every user (IRC users excepted) for display and individuals would not be able to disable it, at least for the foreseeable future. The files aren't really that big, but I want to make sure it's more useful than it is a nuisance.
P.S. The files will be prepicked by me and would have to be in my server, so there will be no 500 MB files uploaded by anyone to the chat, in case that's a concern.
Any other suggestions you might have, you are welcome to share them, either here or through e-mail (like if you think that subtalker shouldn't be the default nickname).
I use mIRC, so whatever that supports in a chat is fine with me. When is the chat this week, Wed or Sat?
Wednesday, appropriate announcements will be made tomorrow.
I don't know about the rest of you people out there, but I spent three fruitless hours (on and off) trying to get online with Netscape. The moment I went to Earthlink, I got right on Subtalk. Any of you whizzes out there able to tell me why? I'm beginning to think that there is a world of difference between servers. Am I right? Anyway, I'm glad I got on so I can see what happened over the past couple of days.
I use Netscape and I have no problems. You may have to use Dila-up networking and then start Netscape=- that is what I do!
I use netscape- no problems. You may have to use dial-up networking and then start Netscape.
I just had a problem getting onto the site using internet explorer.
Netscape Navigator is an application - a web browser - whereas Earthlink is an ISP. If you're saying you use a different ISP when you use Netscape, that brings me to two points 1) It has nothing to do with this site, and B) why do you use different browsers with different ISP's? Why not just choose the browser you like and the ISP (and maybe keep the other one around in case your first choice of ISP is having trouble).
Before complaining here, I would recommend spending some time learning the differences between browsers and ISPs, and also how many different pieces of networking hardware are between your PC and any given site on the Web. It's typically somewhere between 8-15 independent pieces of networking hardware any one of which might be having some problem that prevents access from you to here.
This site doesn't care what browser you use-- I take pretty good pains to be sure that the site is browser independent.
Dial ups and ISP's. I'm not that computer literate. I would say I'm about 45-50% at best. If that could be explained to me I would appreciate it. As it is, I got on with Earthlink.
O.K. Here's the basics.
ISP - The Internet Service Provider. The company or organization that provides your connection to the Internet.
(like Earthlink).
Dial-Up Networking. Windows' name for using your modem to call and connect to your ISP over a telephone line.
modem - A device either inside your computer or in a box (with lights that flash) that sits along side it. It has telephone lines connected to it. It takes the computer signals and converts them so they can be transmitted over a telephone line. (Its name comes from modulate demodulate.)
There's a great little book published by IDG Books called "Windows98 for Dummies. It takes all these computer terms and explains them in everyday English. It's available at almost any book or computer store.
Thanks Dan. I appreciate your simple definitions that make it easier for me to understand. I have both systems on my school computer but it seems that I always seem to get on Earthlink but Netscape is a tougher nut to crack.
>>> I always seem to get on Earthlink but Netscape is a tougher nut to crack. <<<
Fred;
To reiterate what Dave Pirmann said before, Netscape is a browser. It cannot connect you to anything by itself. Your Internet Provider makes your connection with the web. Most internet providers give you software which when the icon is selected connects you to the web and opens your default browser, usually either Microsoft's "Internet Explorer" or Netscape's "Navigator."
Although opening the Internet provider (in your case Earthlink) automatically opens a browser, the reverse is not true. Opening a browser will not automatically open any link to the web. Therefore if you only open the browser, you will get an error message indicating that the browser cannot find any web address.
Tom
Earthlink offers a customized version of one of the two browsers in their software package. He opens the program whose icon is labelled Earthlink, and it opens Netscape or IE just containing the Earthlink logo. The beginner cannot tell the difference and there's nothing wrong with that! I believe it is IE (otherwise he would have the same problems, wouldn't he?).
Finally, what you say about opening the browser and not getting connected is untrue. I don't know what you use, but Windows having IE as early as 2.0 (even if you run Netscape) will AUTOMATICALLY load a selected internet connection when any attempt is made by a program to access the internet. This is useful in that it makes the claim by AOL that it's easier to connect with AOL to be bunk.
As for this automatic connection, the Earthlink software package, in addition to creating the connection in DUN, will set it as the default and therefore facilitate this dialing.
>>> Earthlink offers a customized version of one of the two browsers in their software package. He opens the program whose icon is labeled Earthlink, and it opens Netscape or IE just containing the Earthlink logo <<<
Porky;
I have not worked with Earthlink, so I do not know what their browsers are like. Perhaps the only change is the sign on screen. Earthlink does have a very good reputation as a reliable provider in this area. I have heard that AOL has some kind of customized browser which is somewhat crippled but have not had any first hand experience with it. I have three free Internet providers, and each of them require that I have IE installed to run, but since I have registered Navigator with Windows as my default browser, each provider automatically opens Navigator when I connect with the web. (They all try to slip cookies to Explorer even though I am using Navigator). One of them, Juno, keeps opening Explorer pop up windows, even when Navigator is running.
>>> Windows having IE as early as 2.0 (even if you run Netscape) will AUTOMATICALLY load a selected internet connection when any attempt is made by a program to access the internet. <<<
To get that feature you must register a default internet connection with Windows. Since I am alternating among three free providers, (and I have a proprietary provider to log into a private network) I have no default internet connection registered. Therefore I must pick a provider and connect manually before any access to the web is granted.
Fred may either have the problem of having no default internet provider registered, of he may be opening Navigator in the off line mode.
Tom
AOL is a crummy service by today's standards, but that is because it was the first* service available to the general public, long before there was an Internet Explorer or a Netscape. This means that they had to invent how things were to be done. Later technology far out surpassed them, and they were left playing catch-up with a non-standart technology. (Kinda like trying to couple a Lo-V to an R46~ I suppose it could be done, but it wouldn't be pretty.)
*first as in the first to provide the graphical interface that WWW users are familiar with... previous providers were all DOS based data and email services. In studying TCP/IP protocols, the first "Internet Backbone" consisted of three or four 56Kb lines. (To keep on topic~ kinda like a horse drawn street car that ran between the Bronx and San Francisco!)
Some "facts" are flexible... but that is the short story.
Elias
The Low-V analogy is good.
AOL is like that R-10 that was overhauled to have an R-42 bonnet (sp?)and interior. It looks nice and modern, but it's the same old clunker deep down.
Earthlink's software merely installs the browser, registers what's necessary and includes account management tools.
I remember once having the Earthlink browser. It was just Netscape 2.0 (at the time) that replaced the N logo with the Earthlink logo. It also included an extra Netscape button in the button because clicking the logo went to Earthlink.
AOL has its own proprietary software, and there is a browser window you can open as an MDI child (window inside bigger window) which is IE. However it lacks the full featured menu and button bar and the IE favorites. The AOL mail client isn't totally bad (its use is compulsory, no POP access), it's recent improvements are minimal, like the ability to have colors and links and add images, available for years to non-AOL users. Even with those improvements, it's still not compatible with web standards. Watch the HTML code that does nothing in a message from an AOL client.
The less said about the newsgroup client, the better.
Netscape is not an ISP, it's a browser, like Internet Explorer. What browser do you use at school and at home? Or do you use one for the school's account and a different one for Earthlink?
Dan: I have Earthlink at home and I have absolutely NO problems at all getting on Subtalk.
Like I said, what Browser (Netscape or Internet Explorer) are you using to get to the Web?
And are the problems related to school?
Perhaps Fred is using Netscape.net -- whici IS an Internet provider out here in California. I know a few people whose e-mail addresses are xxxyyyzzz@netscape.net, they say they log on through that as their ISP.
They are doing work on the downtown 6 line. Because of the work lights, Worth street is all lit up and clearly visible. Go have a look!
Also, at Dekalb Ave today I saw both an r40 Q and r40 N arrive at the same time going Northbound.
I have a picture of this station. Come over to my site (click the picture below) and take the express train to TP, then take the Court Street Shuttle to Transit Pictures 11.
Those unusual signs at Hoyt-Schermerhorn had to be there for filming. There are 47-50 signs at the 42nd St. lower level.
Before field shunting modification what were the average speed of trains? I knoe that the brightliners went fast as they still do.
I remember one time 10 years ago, on the lex express looking out the window as we passed the local stations, columns and light were flying by. I say we were goin at least 50, 55.
There used to be mile markers every 1/2 mile. I'd measure the elapsed time with a stop watch or my sweep second hand. The best I'd ever timed was around 45 mph. I friend of mine did manage to get 53 mph on the Rockaway Line.
Does anyone know if the field shunting will be removed, when all the signal modifications are completed?
Field shunting was already removed; it would have to be restored. Whether it will be is anyone's guess.
David
Let's just say the CPW express dash is not the same as it used to be. It's not a dash anymore, anyway.
How about this: SEPTA Broad St. B4 subway train on the CPW run without timers. Should be one hell of a ride.
I always wondered how the multisectionals would have handled an express run along CPW. Chances are they would blown even the R-10s away.
I think it depended on the barn for the most part that gave you the extra MPH. Jamaica barn and alot of C.I.s equipment had the slowest R32s, Concourse Yard had better, but their R42s were really ratty. I never found a good train of R32s going back of a twelve year span. I think any trains that were under warranty back in the '89 to '92 timespan got up to 55 with no problems. Even the R68/A cars got up to 55 frequently. Certain cars, the field shunt mods made a bigger difference than others.
Who got shot on my train? I never saw the first piece on it. Did it happen in Manhattan or Brooklyn, and why did it happen? Nuts!!!! Every time I'm off this line for a day or two I miss something.
This guy had a video camera on the N train at 59 street, at 2:30AM and a memeber of this gang got offended, because he thought he was shooting him, so he pulled out a gun and shot. i think 4 people were injured, but not badly.
Clark Palicka
CEO TrAnSiTiNfO
http://www.nyctransitinfo.com
I hope these guys were caught. And if they were I hope some liberal bleeding hearts won't claim they are victims of society. A nice stretch in Attica would do just find for those rotten $#@^^%*(.
Hey Fred,
Supposedly, they are members of an Hispanic gang. I still say, deport 'em !
Are they illigal?
Personally if someone was taking pictures or video, and I was caught in it I would not mind, especially if it was a railfan video.
As a new yorker I can understand why people fell that way.
When I was taking pics of the Hudson-Bergan light rail, abandoned Canel St. station and Marriot Marquis Hotel in Times Square, I made sure no one was in sight. But I did catch one businessman in a pic, he saw met but I was 40 stories up.
May I advise you visit it if you have time.
It wasn't a railfan video being done. Three people were returning from a party and they were videotaping each other on the train. More of a "tourist" kind of thing.
--Mark
Dude probably got all moody broody cuz
the camera HAPPENED to be on him while
he was STRIKIN' OUT smoochin' it to
some honey..
The Sea Beach train was not injured.
--Mark
Fred:
The original post is still on SubTalk and the Times article is still available as of 4:25 PM PDT Tuesday.
While New Yorkers are excited about the R142s, Atlantans are finally getting new cars after 15 years or so. Breda finally delivered the first of a 100 car order to MARTA, contract CQ312. There's some techincal details in the Atlanta portion of nycsubway.org. They were supposed to arrive last December. Here are pictures of the new cars. They are pretty damn good looking. They are being tested at a new facility MARTA has. There's a 2,300 ft. test track there. I'm gonna try to find this place new final assenbly place and take some pictures, if possible.
nice!! sure look better than the los angeles red line & i think they look better than the R-142s too !! Did they "scrap" the french made cars to replace them with these new models?? Also finally did they get rid of that nasty smelly Carpets on the floors? I am glad to hear the MARTA system does not use "paper transcards" anymore!!
Also finally did they get rid of that nasty smelly Carpets on the floors?
From the picture it's hard to tell. I certainly hope so, that carpet can get pretty rank. I remember reading in the newspaper a while ago that MARTA wanted to replace all the carpet with non-slip rubber. The blue floor on the new cars appear to have white speckles on them, so I'm guessing that they have rubber floors. None of the old cars have been scrapped, they are only 20 years old and there's a car shortage. And they all still have carpet in them.
YEA that had to be the worst thing ever done to any rail transit system anywhere! Using carpet on the floor of the MARTA cars! I think the newer ( & wiser cars etc. ) it does look like a rubber or tile like floor which can even be washed with a water hose ( like i used to do my school bus on stewart ave )wet the floor, then pinesol a good brush then rinse !!
& those paper transcards were a real drag !! One week & they are gone!
especially when you have to HAND SWIPE your transcard on the bus!!
thankz salaam allah
true treue. i also agree abouit the la red line cars looking absolutely ugly. if you ask me those are the ugliest heavy rail vehicles in operation today anywhere in the us (ugliest rail period would have to go to the Kawasaki single-car LRVs that SEPTIC uses)...the martas are cool, they do not look modern but rather have kind of a retro 60s look to them. i like it.
* thank you ! also my point is that the three systems RED GREEN BLUE should have been the same identical type like AKA san diego.
then there should have been interconnecting lines to all three lines
also the blue line long beach branch should have continued to union station / gateway center then the final connecting lines continue to pasadena sierra madrae then on to arcadia monrovia irindale then thru to san bernadino county !! ONE LINE ONE BLUE LINE ( excuse me )
I am happy to hear they got rid of that carpet on the atalnta cars!
thankz salaam allah
Yes, I also believe that terminating the Blue line at Metro Center and not at Union Station was a bad idea. However in my opinion, I don't think that Red-blue or red-green through service should have been initiated - this would have required the Red Line to be Light Rail. LRVs can only go 55 and it would ruin the whole point of that long tunnel to North Hollywood to have to crawl through at 55 instead of running at a more comfortable 75. What I believe should have been done was a joint-subway - either 4track or bi-level - similiar to what San Francisco uses. Red Line trains would have been on the bottom deck, with fare control, while Blue Line trains would have taken the top with Proof-Of-Payment systems instead. As it stands now, when the Pasadena Blue Line extension is finally completed I wouldn't be suprised if it wasn't too long (i.e. 10-20 years) before there was through-blue service, albeit at street level or in a seperate new subway. However now, with all passengers having to transfer to the Red, it inflates the ridership on the Red Line (as does the amount of Metrolink riders who use it as a shuttle to and from Union Station) so that the MTA can brag about ridership when in fact Red Line ridership is dismal.
-Abe
Why can the LRVs only run at 55? Who says they can't go faster, if allowed? They most certainly COULD do 75 in the tunnel, if they were 1)designed to do so, and 2) permitted to do so by the operating authority.
-Hank
See my other post on "79-mph LRVs". None have ever been made and my question is why does every TA in the US limit their LRVs to 55?
Hey hey leave my Kawasakis alone!!! lol
Big D
Nice! They look better than the old cars I rode in August and those were pretty good (just need their interior redone).
A fine looking candidate for the resurrected Rockaway/Airport Branch.
Direct service from GCT to JFK and LGA
avid
Direct service from GCT to ATL to JFK and LGA. Will only take a few days to get there. Just in time to catch your late plane.
I have to say those are some of the ugliest trasit vehicles I've ever seen. It looks like they split an Amcoach lengthwise, and glued a Kawasaki LRV to the top.
-Hank
they have an out dated Amtrak look. R-142's look better and more up to date. however, they resemble WMATA's Breda cars, kind a nice touch though. nice white interior. Carpeted floor? if they have em on the new cars, makes ya feel like ur riding the plane. cadillac of subway trains (sort of)
terrence
I'm just not seeing it. I usually can tell when something looks ugly or not, but they look good to me. I can't even see the retro thing. Maybe perhaps after years of seeing the same old stuff on MARTA, anything will look good to me.
Hi, Nice looking car. Really makes our R68 look worse than it already is. I guess the both MARTA sets will be compatible. By the way, how many orders did MARTA get since they opened? All by the same manufacturer? Can the MARTA subway be covered in one day? I was thinking of doing a day trip to there. When will the new units be in service?
Joe C.
This is MARTA's fourth car order. First and second in 1979 from Franco-Belge (cars 100-200; 500-520). The 501-520 (I not sure if those are the right numbers) were all single cars, but since then they have been coupled in pairs. The third is from Hitachi (1985, cars 201-320) and the current order from Breda will start at 600. Currently they have 238 cars in revenue service. The current order is for 100 cars. The first sets will be in service in December, in time for the opening of the North line extension.
I just looked at the Atlanta section in nycsubway.org, and it appears that Dave took out the car specs for some reason.
The whole system can be covered in less than a day, I think I've done it in 3-4 hours. Wait until after the new stations open to make a trip here.
Hi, thanks for the info. I guess I'm itching for a trip to do. When I saw the MARTA posts it gave me an idea, since I hadn't been there since 1982. I always liked the MARTA system, rail and bus, and have been watching it for several years. The new cars are a nice subtle change from the earlier ones, although not too drastic that they would screw up compatability. There is something I personally like about straight sided cars, like LA, Baltimore, Miami etc. But the curves on the MARTA car are augmented by color, a good move. I like the MARTA car as well as the LAMTA car. They do what they are supposed to do and they do it well. Everyone has their opinions and tastes. That is all they are, opinions. Doesn't amount to a hill of beans in the scheme of things. One thing is for sure: as railfans we ALL benefit when a new car is put on the rails somewhere.
Thanks again for the info; I'll get to Atlanta again sooner or later
Joe C.
Lookd great, nice and colorful. Looking at the top of the page, I see now that NJTransit stole MARTA's logo. Interesting...
They are nice! The black front is a good touch. It would be nice if the R143s look like the new MARTA cars, at least up front.
right!! & the carpet on the floor has to go!
right!! & the carpet on the floor that they used to have has got to go!
look better than a r-142!!! hands down!!
I just read the thread about the shooting incident on the N train,
and that reminded me of an incident that happened to me several
months ago while photographing the West Philadelphia MFL El structure.
I was visiting my friends, who live near 46th and Walnut Sts., and one
of my friends and I decided to take my dog for a walk (I drove my car
that day, so I brought my dog along). We walked over to 49th and
Market Sts., when I decided to take a picture of the El with the
Center City skyline in the background. I walked up on a ramp that
leads to a store for a better shot (that same store was having a
sidewalk sale at the time), and snapped the picture, while my friend
waited with my dog at the bottom of the ramp. As my friend and I
started to walk away, all of a sudden I heard "YO! YO! WHAT ARE YOU
TAKING A PICTURE OF ME FOR?!?!?" This black guy (not to be racist)
came from where the sidewalk sale was, and started yelling at me,
claiming I was taking his picture. I kept telling him that I was
photographing the El and the city skyline. He still kept insisting
that I was taking his picture, and for a moment, I though he was going
to grab my camera, which was my $500.00 Minolta 35mm SLR. He then
threatened that he was going to call the cops on me for taking his
picture. I just said "go ahead", because I know I wasn't doing
anything wrong. After this going on after several minutes, we walked
away without further incident, although I was quite shaken up. If it
wasn't for me having my friend and my dog with me, I strongly feel
that I would've been attacked and/or had my camera swiped. Anytime
I take pictures now, I make sure NO ONE sees me. Don't these people
realize that railfans exist??? It seems that whenever you take
pictures, you are taking your life in your hands. That really stinks!
that guy you had problems with sounds like the train dude inside posting from inside creedmor! I always say I am sorry sir,I was taking a shot of the train I did not get you in the picture my apologies sir!
Try to say as little as possible sometimes just say "sorry" & leave
quickly return 30 minurtes later with everybody gone!!!
Always I tell motormen i am shooting the train only & go out of every kind of way to shoot as wide as possible as to not be near any persons
be as close or near the trains you want to shoot but no closeups or near any persons especially when i shoot railfan videos or still shots same thing!!
I am sorry there are so many idiots out there but it is the public & you take your chances when you squeeze of shots of public transit.
Do not let it get you down you are tougher than that! ( smile )
thankz salaam allah
I took an A train of R44's from 34th street. Because of a G.O., I took this A train to Rockaway Blvd, and then get another A train to Far Rockaway.
On the way, there was an OOS train of R44's at Hoyt-Schermerhorn on the southern unused platform. The sign said NYCTA. There was a film crew on scene, and used bright lights filming a scene in one of the subway cars. This was around 2:15pm.
The Fulton express didn't have too many long stretches, so the R44's couldn't build up a top speed, although we did got pretty fast on that stretch before Euclid ave.
I got off at Rockaway Blvd, and an A train to Far Rockaway was behind us.
Now, with a train of R44's again, the ride to Rockaway was beautiful. It felt more like the LIRR than the subway, the way the tracks felt.
Both bridges over Jamaica Bay were nice, and the long stretches before and after Broad Channel were fast.
The train went fast through Hammels Wye, even though there was a curve there. The ride along the concrete el to Far Rockaway was very nice. The view of the ocean was nice, and it was pretty desolate. Also some metal electrical towers remain (probably carry LIPA power to Rockaways)from the LIRR days. I kept having to remind myself I was on the subway, because it felt alot more like the LIRR. Especially with the R44's, a distant cousin of the M-1's used on the LIRR.
The terminal, Far Rockaway, wasn't as bad as I thought. There were people around, and the area didn't look much worse than Sutphin Blvd, Jamaica.
The ride back was also on R44's and equally as nice, the Fulton express seemed a bit faster on the way back.
I changed for the F at Jay street and had a nice ride back to Queens on an R46, and no congestion on Queens Blvd this time.
I think the A is one of my favorite subway lines. Theres a great variety, from tunnels to el's to great water views (some of the best views are on the A), to alot of express stretches on CPW, 8th ave, and Fulton.
My question is this. Are the tracks and ties on the Rockaway line the same as when it was the LIRR line, and does anything original remain on the line from it's LIRR days?
Well, the tracks and the ties are definitely not the same. Rails and wooden ties aren't designed to last through 50 years of continuous service. The roadbed however is the same. The stations date back to LIRR days but I think that's about it although some of the old LIRR stations disappeared during re-construction in the 1950's. This website has plenty of information as far as the old Rockaway line goes so you may want to check it out. The Rockaway Park station on the Rock Pk Shuttle still has the same high ceiling entrance and mezzanine dating back to the 1900's.
A great book on the history of the Rockaway Branch is "Change at Ozone Park" by Herbert George.
I was at the Transit Museum Annex in Grand Central today and they had several copies of "Change at Ozone Park" on the shelves. The price is $18.95, and as Jeff says, it is a very good book.
This book is so good on this topic ,it brings tears to you yes and a forlone feeling to your heart . It just seems that evil dark forces have formed an Axis against very good sense to keep The Ny Metro area from having a real single seat from JFK to Manhattan or LGA or that udder airport Newark. The traffic rat nest at JFK would confuse an Archangle. To think , It was once right at JFK's doorstep. With alittle tracck work a train could get within a half mile of LGA or continue on thru to Newark. The politicos blame or inflame the N.I.M.B.Y.s because too many corrupt leaders want a piece of the Pie
avid
A real close look at th rails on the express tracks near aquaduct will show a manufactures stamp date of 1955, and the ties of those same express tracks show a lot of age ,spliting and rot. The tracks are not used except for storage on very, very rare occasions. The south bound rails and ties were replaced with welded rail about ten or more years ago. A keen eye will see six bolt rail joiners on the newer rails and four bolt rail joiners on the original TA tracks . I beleive all the rails were replaced when the Ta took over ownership from the LIRR. Then again when welding came about in those areas. The north bound tracks Have not been fully welded. In the spring of this year ther was a lot of welded rail activity south of Howard Beach, but I'm not sure if it was on the main line or the newer sidings installed from the north channel bridge to Broad Channel. Perhaps Someone astute in that area can add or correct this info.
avid
Continuous welded rail was installed on 1 and 2 tracks from about 300 feet south of Howard Beach to the North Channel bridge earlier this year. 3 and 4 tracks still have the old rails.
There is a long siding north of Broad Channel to the right of the southbound track.
The siding that was installed last year north of Broad Channel has room for one full length train and is used to turn Rockaway Park Shuttle trains. They are also constructing an additional spur track alongside the southbound track which would extend to just south of the North Channel bridge. I'm guessing that the purpose of this spur would be for track testing cars.
The long section across Jamaica Bay was a wood trestle in LIRR days. It was destroyed by fire (around 1950 or 51), ending LIRR service across Jamaica bay. When the NYCTA purchased it, they rebuilt it as sand fills. I beleive that the two swing bridges date back to the LIRR days.
The elevated structure on the Rockaway peninsula was built by the LIRR shortly before WWII to replace a ground-level operation. The structure and stations were designed with possible eventual conversion to subway use in mind (e.g., high-level platforms, mezzanines for fare control).
-- Ed Sachs
I beleive that the two swing bridges date back to the LIRR days.
Hmmm ... I thought the TA built those, too.
--Mark
Both statements are essentially true.
During the days of LIRR operation the swing bridges were made of wood and because of this caught fire quite frequently. It was partially due to the high-maintenance of those bridges that made the LIRR sell the line to the NYCTA.
When the NYCTA upgraded the line to subway system specs, they took the initiative of rebuilding the swing bridges out of steel to avoid the frequent-fire problems that plagued the prior set of bridges.
BMTman
The A is the premier line of the entire subway system, if not the B division or IND itself, IMHO. It's my personal favorite as well for the same reasons you gave.
On the above date the Bridge-Jay St el station burned down. The fire was difficult to fight because of 40 mph winds. Three el cars were destroyed in the blaze. I assume that they were probably gate cars.
Does anyone have a book or other reference material that might show the numbers of those three cars?
And on Oct. 4, 1969, the Myrtle Ave. el closed up shop with a final fantrip on the Q cars.
On this date in 1955 Johnny Podres shut out the Yankees 2-0 to win for the Brooklyn Dodgers their only World Series. The Jerome Line was packed with happy revelers who journeyed back to Brooklyn. It wasn't the #4 line then, mine was. I have been told that at that game there were actually more people rooting for the Dodgers than the Yankees. Take that Yankee fans.
>>> On this date in 1955 Johnny Podres shut out the Yankees 2-0 to win for the Brooklyn Dodgers their only World Series <<<
Hmm! For those into conspiracy theories, did this event lead the Yankees to cause the exile of the Dodgers to the left coast? :-)
Tom
I'm trying to remember who made the last out. It was a ground ball to Pee Wee Reese, who threw to Hodges. Then there was Sandy Amoros and his spectacular catch of Yogi's pop fly down the left field line.
The Mets can add Pac Bell Park to their list of ballparks they're having trouble winning at.
I'm trying to remember who made the last out.
Elston Howard
Thanks. For some reason, that name crossed my mind.
The thread title is Apr, 20th 1946!
Did the Yankees really play a World Series with the Dodgers on Apr 20th 1955?
Kinda early in the year for a World Series, don't ya think?
It sure was! It would have played hell with the rest of the season too!
I hope Fred finally found out what happened on Apr 20th 1946.
I had hoped that someone might have had some information as to the numbers of those three cars that were destroyed in the fire, but I guess that it happened too long ago!
Thanks to the kindness of my colleagues I did. Thanks Karl.
Hey fellas, I'm back from the dead. Been busy with school, work, watching the Yankees fall apart & the Giants start off great only to start playing lousy. But anyways, my question. I was watching Ghostbusters for the 145th time the other day, and I remember the scene with the earthquake at Central Park West. Do you ever wonder if they should've fallen into the Central Park West subway tunnels? I sometimes question that. It's probably a beating a dead horse question, but I thought I'd ask anyways.
Jorge "Mr R-62/62A" Catayi
I saw this car the other day and on its north side this car has a HUGE crack right by the middle set of doors. Some other cars are also looking quite shabby. Look out for 9703 it has a hole by the one of the picture windows my R36s are starting to die. sniff sniff. :0(
At about midnight witnessed a northbound E train making a restricted
move on A4 track at W4 St. Car 3705, in the middle of the train,
had THE WORST flats I've ever heard or even heard about. The train
was moving at about 5 MPH, probably heading for Jamaica.
I'd love to know what mechanical failure is determined to have
caused those flats.
Most likely a stuck brake caused those flats. Uneven trainline braking can also cause it, another reason though highly unlikely in this case could be an unreleased handbrake.
If a car has flats so dangerous that it risks derailment, the specific car can have it's brakes locked and they can then drag the car to the yard while the unaffected cars operate normally. They would of course have to replace all the wheels on that affected car as there would be 8 flats.
4 possible causes come to mind:
1) Seized bull/pinion gears. Any axle, any truck, probably limited to one axle only.
2) Leaky J-Relay causing excessive brake cylinder pressure. This will result in flats to all wheels of the car and may be accompanied by the burning plastic smell of the composition shoes.
3) Handbrake applied enroute. Effected axles are number one and number two only and will be accompanied by the burning plastic smell of the composition shoes.
4) Excessive dynamic brake. With this problem, usually multiple flats are found on each wheel as problems like this are not usually found at once.
In any case, smoke will issue from the sliding wheels and hopefully a conductor will detect the situation promptly.
I guess people mis-read my post. I know what _could_ have
caused that (although it is instructive to list the causes),
but I was hoping someone such as Train Dude might have picked
this up on the train trouble reports and have an inside scoop
as to what actually happened.
Many years ago R-6-3 #991 suffered a similar problem as she seized up good as she left 50th Street, right in the curve heading to 7 ave. Only problem here she was the lead motor. We had to get a push to 7 Ave and I dont know what happened after that cos we took the "D" to 47-50 and so took the "F" back to Jama.
wayne
Around 10PM, a southbound E at Canal Street was reported to have 'Smoke Issuing'. The train was moved to WTC where it was determined that the #2 axle of car #3705 was locked - most likely due to a broken pinion gear. The train was rocked until the pinion was broken free and the train was then moved, at restricted speed, to Jamaica yard. At Jamaica Yard, the broken pinion was confirmed. The #3 & 4 wheels ended up with 8" flats. The car will be transferred to Coney Island, this weekend, for a truck change.
Trivia Question: What is the significance of BMT216A ? Hint: You needn't be a subway buff to know the answer but a being a movie buff will definitely help.
Thanks for the info, Steve! From the sound of that car passing
I guessed 6" flats. Now that car going to be sent south on
its own trucks?? No transfer table at Jamaica?
It might be fun to send the Sperry car and the Tk Geo car out
behind this drag!
Jeff,
Before the car is transferred, the pinion will be removed and the wheels will either be cut or welded depending on the wheel readings, before the car is transferred.
If I remember correctly many years ago, it was S.O.P. to use a dolly that a truck could be strapped to to avoid the welding. I made the move once with a C.I. R27 when I hit miscellaneous. Why don't they use the dolly anymore? Was there a technology improved upon that allow temporary fixes to weld slag to forged steel. I don't particularly like moving welded wheels. Even at restricted speed, steel dust shakes loose from all parts of the car body and the truck leaving behind an impression of smoke issuing and the flat sounds worse than it may be after the welding.
Many years ago, we used Cauley wheels to move cars from the road to the nearest maintenance facility when the car had large flats or a locked pinion. However, Cauley wheels had serious limitations. The largest was that Cauley wheels could only be used on cars with clasp-type brake riggings. Since most cars now have tread brake units, the opportunity to use Cauley wheels are limited.
As for welding the wheels, it is a last resort. The fact is that for every inch of flats, we need to remove about 1/8" of tread so if the wheels are fairly new, 2"+, they'll be able to be cut before being sent to the O/Haul shop. The trouble is when you make such a significant cut, the other wheels need to be cut so the car is not riding on mis-matched wheels.
As for steel dust - that went with the steel brake shoes.
I remember of an incident years ago on the Lexington Avenue Line involving one of these dollys where the increased height of the trucks caused damage to signal wiring and car equipment. What was the actual increase of height using the Cauley dolly?
10/06/2000
[train was rocked until the pinion was broken free and the train was then moved, at restricted speed, to Jamaica yard.]
From WTC to Jamaica yard at restricted speed ? That must have took an hour. You got me stumped on BMT216A !
Bill "Newkirk"
According to the report I read, it took over 2 hours. The move started a bit after midnight and the train was report in Jamaica Yard at 2:39AM.
As for BMT216A, here are two more hints:
4711-EA-62
LU-6789
Does that help?
The numbers on the revolving license plates on James Bond's Aston - Martin DB5. One of my favorite non-rail vehicles.
Excellent - If you e--mail me privately with you address, I'll send you a copy of the 2000 Subway guide
Steve
Steve,
You amaze me! I have trouble remembering my own SS number in the proper order, and you can remember 007's different revolving license plates!
You have to be a Bond fan!
Memory has little to do with it. The first one was from memory but I actually had to watch the scene in Slo-mo to get the other 2 numbers.
I do have a good memory when it comes to car #s.
Isn't that part of your job description?
Actually it's not but what's your point?
Well you work in a car shop and I would guess that it helps to be able to remember car numbers. The manager of the best car shop in the MTA can probably remember every car number he sees.
I think you tend to remember "series" of cars vs. specific car #s, e.g. at this depot we have a group of MCI coaches and with in it are a group of "Liberty's". I know the range of s/n for both groups.
Mr t__:^)
BMT216A??
Isn't that the license number on one of James Bond's cars????
Randy Kennedy wrote an article in Wednesday's Times that questions the TA's recently revised "on time" standards. He doesn't mention that it is a plot hatched by heypaul to send more math tutoring business in his direction.
And that caption under the picture in the article (on-line version) is wrong, or the picture that was supposed to match the caption was wrong.
I distinctively recognize the "Times Square" station sign as the ones on the BMT Broadway line. That's not the #7 platform.
--Mark
Check out page 22 of last Sunday's NYT Magazine. One page article on
R142s!
Yes; this was mentioned yesterday.
Yep, another delay due to door problems on the F this morning, following three F'ed rush hour commutes last week.
This time, the conductor was able to isolate the door rather than taking the train out of service. We had one packed train with another close behind, but the foul up didn't last long enough to wreck the whole rush hour. Guess they are re-learning those early 1980s skills.
Hey Train Dude, any chance of you moving back to Kew Gardens from Concourse?
Better yet, how about cloning him?:-)
Yesterday, the 18:27 (B) out of Bedford Park was a consist of R-32 Cars,
3563-3562-3558-3421-3927-3926-3450-3451-3948-3949
What a site!!!!
Trevor Logan
"3558-3421"
Are there many cases of pairs not being in numerical sequence?
Yes there are. For example you have:
3444-3777
5617-5616-6203-6202
4426-4429
4460-4661(don't quote me on the last #)
All car classes(except maybe the R38) have at least one married pair or 4 car unit with mismatching numbers due to varying maintenance circumstances. Sometimes a mate was unattached due to lacking in parts or was cannibalized for parts. Or a mate could have been destroyed in an accident(4460 and 4661's mates were the two cars in the W'burg Br.accident/4427 was involved in a collision on the L line I believe at Bushwick Ave.). But the R32 definitely has the most mismatched married pairs at least in the B division.
Oops! I meant 5616-5617-6203-6202.
I sort of suspected that destruction by accident could cause this, but maintenance problems never occurred to me. In other words if maintenance is the reason for this mispairing, 3559 & 3420 are probably paired somewhere else on the system, and there is no attempt to get the original pairs back together again?
The R-32s appear to have had more than their fair share of annulments and remarriages.:-)
zman179:
Those car number that you listed (5616-5617-6203-6202) are R-46 car numbers.
BMTJeff
Yes, I am aware of that. I was pointing out that just about every car class(in the B division anyway and excluding the R38) has at least one married pair/4 car unit with mismatching numbers.
Correct, there are no R38 Odd Couples; but four have been scrapped: they are #3990-3991 and #4000-4001.
wayne
Wayne-MrSlantR40
When they scrapped the R-38's,and with the redbirds to be scrapped or sunk,what happens to the side route and distination signs? Do they become available for sale to us subtalk fans,and if so how can we out of towners obtain them ?
Thanks
RonJ
Chances are the Transit Museum may offer them for sale, if they're salvaged. Cityana Gallery offered R-1/9 roller curtains, complete with mechanisms, for sale in the late 70s. I have examples of each - bulkhead and side.
That's a real good question, Ron. I would like to get an R40 side sign and also a front-end roll from R40 R40M or R42. I am STILL kicking myself for not getting more than one R32 front-end roll when I had the chance to do so.
wayne
Wayne & Steve
Thanks for the reply.
I,like you have the whole side route/destination sign box from car R-9 / 1749 which I got from Branford in the mid 70's.The box still has the light fixture attached to it.Also has the route sign for TT,EE,& B via 6th Ave.
The route/ destination signs would be interesting to have from the cars you mentioned. If you find out these signs will become available, please post as I'm sure a lot of subtalks would be interested.
Thanks, Ron J.
Sounds like my sign box. It even has the light green paint which was applied to the car interiors at some point in the 60s. As was discussed in an earlier thread, I left the wiring for the lower sign lights intact and installed a wall plug. I currently have it signed for the D; looks as if I'll have to change the bottom sign to "Sixth Ave.-34th St." when the bridge tracks are swapped.
Steve B
Sure sounds like we have the same sign box.Did you use DC light bulbs?
I have to do some wiring on the box to get the upper and lower destination sign to light.You're right, will be changing the lower sign to Sixth Ave-34th street. The D train sign I love is a odd ball I used to ride during the early 60's Upper: 205th Street Lower: Fulton-Euclid Ave. This train had white and green marker lights. Crossed over to the Fulton line at Jay St and ran express to Euclid.There were at least 3 trains in the AM that did this. Why this routing when the other D's went Church Av or Coney Island, I could never figure out. Maybe you or someone has a answer for the Euclid routings.
Thanks, Ron J.
The R-38s are a happy bunch.:-)
Yes they are. Care to go exploring some later this month? BTW I DID get the day off 10.26.00
wayne
Sure.
That is R40M 4460 with R42 4665.
#4427 slid down the slippery slope in the Blizzard of 96, tried to mount #4428 (flattened his roof).
THE ODD COUPLES LIST is available in the Illustrated Car Roster, R32 Page. There are a total of 25 pairs. All mates are accounted for EXCEPT a few scrapped cars.
AND the R46 pair also finds: 5614-5615 alongside 6205-6204.
wayne
OK HERE IT IS AGAIN:
R32 MISMATCHED PAIRS ("Odd Couples")
As of April 24, 1999
In order, lowest even number to highest
--------------------------------------------------------
3348 - 3549 (note A)
3382 - 3831
3418 - 3863
3420 - 3645
3444 - 3777
3468 - 3445
3470 - 3919
3502 - 3905
3520 - 3891
3530 - 3741
3548 - 3593
3558 - 3421
3592 - 3469
3600 - 3503
3628 - 3669 (note B)
3644 - 3621
3650 - 3767
3658 - 3471
3740 - 3419
3776 - 3617
3830 - 3531
3862 - 3521
3890 - 3383
3904 - 3559
3918 - 3601
Note A - 3348 originally numbered 3659, converted from 'B' unit to 'A' unit
Note B - 3669 originally numbered 3668, converted from 'B' unit to 'A' unit; original 3669 wrecked 12-01-74; 3629 wrecked 5-71.
wayne
Funny, when I was a conductor, I first met my wife while I was operating on the E in cars 3444-3777. We may be an odd couple but we're definitely not mismatched!
That IS an unusual pairing, 3444/3777 but NOTHING's as odd as #3348.
wayne
10/05/2000
I didn't realize there were that many mis mated R-32's, but not as bad as the R-27/30's which were mismate heaven.
Bill "Newkirk"
The R-27s and R-30s were easier to swap around because they had couplers on the blind ends.
Wayne,
Thanks so much for the complete list. I had no idea that there would be so many. In looking at the numbers, it does look like many of them could be put back the way they should be, but the labor costs and the equipment downtime would be huge, so why bother!
A question about your note B, if I understand the numbering correctly isn't 3669 an A unit converted to a B?
Karl
The car that is today's #3669 was formerly 'A' unit #3668. The original #3669 was the car involved in Malbone II, on December 1, 1974. It took a HUGE hit in the right side and bent like a bow. There was three feet penetration just ahead of the #2 door. I was told they had to lift it out by Crane and put it on a flatbed truck to take it to CI where I guess it was ultimately scrapped. I wonder if they scrounged parts from it.
wayne
Considering the fact that the cars are about 35 years old now I guess that only 50 of the 600 having lost their original mates is probably not a bad percentage at all. I've never seen them in person, but the pictures I have seen indicate that they looked much better before they were rebuilt.
Thanks for all the info!
The R-32s as delivered were a sight to behold. Their blue doors really set them apart. I liked them the moment I boarded that first N train in 1965, and had it not been for all those rides on the A and the R-10s, the R-32s would be my all-time, hands down, favorite cars. They're my favorites among the current fleet.
Howdy.
My thrill as a kid in the 60's was to ride the T from Ditmars to CI in a brand new R32. I can still remember how brightly the sun would reflect from the trains when making the big turn to and from QBP while standing on the Beebe Av platform.
Astoria T-QT-QB-RR Railfan
>>>......blue doors really set them apart.<<<
THIS IS A TRIVIA POP QUIZ!!!!
Besides the R=32,
what other class of subway cars was,also, delivered with blue doors?
WAYNE SLANT40 is not allowed to answer. 8-0)
Peace,
ANDEE
The R11s!
Correct, also the r-42s.
BLUE DOOR R-42
Peace,
ANDEE
10/18/2000
Sorry R36#9346 and Andee !
The R-11's were delivered in 1949 with unpainted doors. the doors were painted in the mid 60's for the R-34 overhaul. Check the inside cover of the 2001 NYC Subways Calendar.
Also the R-42's were delivered with silver painted side doors. The storm door was painted blue. The blue doors were painted at the time the interiors receieved the tan walls and orange doors, (pre-GOH).
While we're at it, the R-38's were delivered with all silver doors except for the thin light blue pin stripe (side doors). Some got blue doors during the orange/tan interior period.
Bill "Newkirk"
That's right about the R-42s. Next time you watch The French Connection, pay particular attention to the train in the chase sequence and you'll see. That's how the R-42s looked when they were new. Incidentally, their doors had a light blue interior finish a la the R-32s, R-36s, and R-38s. Oh amd the slant R-40s, too.
Thanks for the clarification
Peace,
ANDEE
AND better still is the fact that only eight of the fleet are out of revenue service:
3616 - scrapped no other info available
3620 - frame bent
3629 - wreck (full nose)
3651 - scrapped no other info available
3669 (original car) wreck (side impact)
3934-3935 R32GE Parts Cars.
3766 - scrapped no other info available
R32- tough as nails. They will make fifty years for sure.
wayne
10/06/2000
[I was told they had to lift it out by Crane and put it on a flatbed truck to take it to CI ]
I photographed that car in the back of Coney Island yard (under the Belt Parkway, not on TA property), it was on it's trucks by the bumping block. So I guess it was towed to CI.
Bill "Newkirk"
What did the side route signs say? Did they have B/Wash. Hts.-6th Ave.-West End or something close?
I remember when the R-32s first ran on the B when that route was created. Back then, their BB signs had B overlays pasted over.
According to NY1 News, the new R-142 trains have been attacked with vandalism despit heightened security.
Two teenage suspects were caught etching tags on the seats, windows, and doors.
We're already off and running with the vandalism. Wait till the rest of the fleet starts coming in.
Like the guy on the old WPIX Channel 11 Editorial segment used to say, What's your opinion? We'd like to know?"
I heard something on WCBS 880 AM News about some kind of acid that was being used to etch "carvings" in windows that not even the mylar (or whatever it is) protectant could help. Is this true? Could someone clarify?
If these miscreants would put this useless energy to something good, imagine how much better off we'll all be.
--Mark
Yes, there was a small article in yesterdays Daily News. They use some kind of etching acid, available at hardware stores, combined with stencils to speed up the process of tagging. The problem is that if the etching acid becomes wet it gets reactivated thereby presenting significant risk that someone could be hurt.
Peace,
ANDEE
I think Train Dude mentioned this a few months ago.
Yes, he did, but he was unable to go into details at the time.
Peace,
ANDEE
(The problem is that if the etching acid becomes wet it gets
reactivated thereby presenting significant risk that someone could be hurt.)
In that case, add reckless endangerment to the list of charges. I guess they are using acid so the cops can't make them lick it off. One thing is for sure, any money they or their family have should diappear for repairs. I don't care if it costs more to try the case and collect than you get, we need that deterrant.
You are absolutely right.
Peace,
ANDEE
Why don't transit workers go out one night and vandalize their house? Turnabout it fair play and it would be enjoyable, strees relieving activity. I always get a kick out of destroying stuff.
Good sentiment in point but, don't you think that would be unfair to the law abiding citizens of the neighborhood? Having to live next door to a vandalized house?
Peace,
ANDEE
When the house next door is trashed, my house should look better in comparason. At least in theory.
True, but you have to look at the trashed house and the trashed house will lower the value of your house.
Peace,
ANDEE
A lot of times these vandals live and wallow in their own misery and filth.
To vandalize the hell-hole they call home would just be a waste of time.
Yes, I heard about the acid grafitti also. It was featured on Channel 2 News the other day.
It seems that some people are using this acid to tag up windows of the shops and restaurants in the SoHo area.
eventually they will take it off the market, knowing it is dangerous to the public. no headache for MTA when it happens and passengers will be safe. just like those cigarette lighter switch blades. or maybe they will sell it with scrutiny. you have to have a working reason to have it, but those ass hole vandals will have connections to people who use it for a real purpose.
And this is somehow surprising?
-Hank
BX New Flyer Artic Guy:
I heard about the vandalism on the new trains over WINS1010AM radio this morning. Apparently they etched the windows and some of the cars may have been marked up with magic markers. At this rate the new trains won't look like new trains after a short while. I wonder if vandals will wind up defacing trains before they even enter revenue service.
BMTJeff
why don't the MTA put High security look out at their yards and stations? put about 10 guys on a look out at the yards and stations where if vandals come around, they will get caught. also put up electrical fencil all around so when those stupid asses come to vandalize, they will get hurt. they deserve a lesson physically!
terrence (excuse my fustration)
Electric fencing, big mean dogs, armed guards and bright lights won't completely stop them. If they get caught make them clean the trains.
Too bad you can suspend them from taking the trains or buses.
make them clean it call the cops and send them to jail for six months to a year. that will stop them. every little bit helps. by the way, what da hell do these damn bastards get out of vandalizing property that is not theirs?! also, isn't it government property? cause if it is, then the government should make it a felony to destroy government property! please reply
terrence (again excuse my fustration)
Technically it is government property.
I don't see why they can't pass a law like that. That is actually a good idea. Then again, I'm not a lawyer so I can't say for sure if it can be done legally.
I mean, if someone was caught doing grafitti in the Municipal Building or Board of Ed Building, that would be considered an offense no doubt. So why not extend it to the trains (and schools while we're at it) also?
It's already a crime. The problem are catching them and convincing judges to impose appropriate sentences.
Grafitti, is a fact of life, while I do Not endorse it or encourage it. It is a fact of life.
Peace,
ANDEE
it sucks
Ya know that's just the problem, these people don't give a damn about anything. So what makes you think they'll care anything about these subway cars. I wish sombody would beat these vandils sense less, but then i guesse that would'nt be right also. Well in my opinion i hope they go to hell, because their just a bunch of bullies, they like taking advantage of things or people, and just maybe one day they'll get what's coming to them.
Too bad you can suspend them from taking the trains or buses.
I assume you meant to write can't suspend them etc.
I too support "banishing" vandals from using transit (I might have mentioned this once before, not sure). It involves the same concept as suspending the licenses of drunk drivers. Everyone knows full well that most people will keep on driving under suspension. But if someone is caught violating the suspension, he or she is in deep doo-doo. Connecticut, for example, has a manadatory 30 days for anyone caught driving while under a DWI suspension, with early releases prohibited regardless of the circumstances.
Much the same would work with transit. Let's say someone is caught vandalizing a train. In addition to any other penalties, he should be banned from using any form of transit for, say, five years. There's obviously no way to monitor compliance. But if he's caught on a subway or bus within that period, it's six months on Rikers Island, no buts, ifs or ands.
I know, this'll never happen. The Upper West Siders would hoot and holler about discrimination. But it's a nice thought.
it would be better if once caught send them straight to Rikers for six months to a year and ahalf in the slammer. that will slow down vandalism dramatically
Yeah, but watch that little pansy Norman Siegel and his fellow New York Civil Liberties Union wussies whine, bitch and moan about how unfair that would be. What that wuss Siegel and his fellow NYCLU Upper West Side pansies need is a couple or three years in Rikers or Sing-Sing. Let's see how they are when they come out.
Sorry, to go off on a tangent like that, but I hate how Siegel and his cronies are always on TV trying to get people who committ heinous crimes off scott-free on account of racism or police brutality.
That's because Norman and the West Side group all live in closed circuit-tv monitored, armed doorman-protected towers of ivory.
Let's see if you try to vandalize their property or their neighborhood. Then we'll see how understanding and sympathetic they are.
Where would you put them? The jails are already packed
Peace,
ANDEE
Let's take a lesson from Singapore. Public caining. It doesn't use up jail space, it hurts like *#(^$, it leaves a lasting impression (in more ways than one) and it's cheaper.
--Mark
will not work, child welfare will not allow sixteen year olds get cained. Plus some of those teenagers are kinky as hell and might like it(lol)
however, i have an idea that could work but might have minuses to it.
once caught vandalising government or private property, the person will go to jail for two years, on top of that,if the criminal is a teen, parent will have to pay a $2000 fine along with the sentence. (this is not to bail them out its a penalty). this has to be paid within 90 days. no installments. if parent or guardian doesn't comply withing 90 days, the sentence will be pushed up 1 year to 3 years. after criminal gets out, 6 months of probation. if criminal committs another vandalistic attack and has it on file that it was done, then put him or her away for 3-4 years in jail again. it sounds harsh but it would the best way to go. i think this would be the best way to slow down vandalism to a hault in this state. i wish i were governer on this situation, because those scrachiti vandals wouldn't see the day of light.
This country has the highest incarceration rate in the world (I do believe that is correct, but there might be a qualifyer) and comparative crime rate statistics show that it does not help reduce the crime rate. We are creating an army of people who will never be able to get meaningful employment and will only turn back to crime. If this this lock-em-up trend continues what happens when we have more people in jail than out of jail? If you added up the cost of putting people in jail for vandalism (counting future reductions in vandalism AND lost GDP because the person will never be able to get a job again) it is probably cheaper for society to continue to replace the windows.
squease em' in there some how! put em' in the janitors closet as extra room. or on the floor. they don't deserve a bed cause they are worthless.
Maybe we can put them in HeyPaul's room.
I supposed you could put one of those electronic ankle braclets on them that the U.S. Marshals Service and several states use for home detention. Those are supposed to go off when the person leaves their house or some specified area. In this case, you could set up some type of alarm system at each subway station to go off if they tried to enter.
It would be expensive -- there are a lot of entrances in the subway system -- but it would provide a little bit of justice.
Ah, but it would be a one-time expense, unlike the cost of removing graphitti.
I have had fare beaters jump in front of a cop. I spoke the required " pay your fare" in a loud voice over the booth mike and have had the cop do nothing! I have had illegal use of school passes with cops standing at the same turnstile and no penalty.
Cops should be required to arrest every fare beater. Raise the fine to $5000 for the first offense-mandatory. If they dont have it garnish their pay or tax refunds. They dont work- make them work cleaning the subways or city property.
>>> Cops should be required to arrest every fare beater. Raise the fine to $5000 for the first offense-mandatory. <<<
Let's not lose all sense of proportionality. A $5,000.00 fine for a $1.50 theft is a little extreme. A fine in the range of $300.00 to $500.00 should be adequate. And do the police physically arrest fare beaters or issue a summons similar to a traffic ticket? If it is necessary to arrest the person, there is a tendency in all police departments to ignore minor violations toward the end of a tour because of the extra time necessary to do the paperwork and book an arrestee. If there is a general tendency not to make any arrests at all it is an indication of low morale.
Also if a fare beater gets through the turnstile without paying without a police officer seeing him, just your saying "pay the fare" would not be enough for the police officer to make an arrest A police officer can make an arrest for a misdemeanor only if he/she has witnessed it. If his back was turned and only you saw the act, you would have to make a citizen's arrest, and ask the police officer to transport the person. You would also have to swear out a complaint and appear in court to testify against the offender. If you failed to go to court, and therefore the case was dismissed, you might be subject to a lawsuit for false arrest.
Tom
While we are not police, many officers will write a ticket if we sign the ticket as witness. SOme fare beaters will jump back out when we challenge them.
One repeat fare beater was ticketed by a cop in the station who got off a train. I saw the officer and told him of the repeat fare ebater. The person got a surprise from the officer and was almost taken downtown.
Catch them and cut there damm hands off.......( just kidding......)
As a non-Muslim, I actually do like this idea. I find graffiti of any kind repulsive especially on subway cars. With a penalty like this, vandals who get caught will surely kick their own sorry @$$e$ for ever thinking about it in the first place. Having a probation or a short prison term is just not enough to scare them away. They will never understand the beauty of subway cars and their importance if they know they can get away with some feeble punishment. Something like cutting their hands off, or one week without water, or forced castration mutilation would do the deed!
You're right BMT Jeff.
As soon as I saw those smooth lavender seats, I knew they were going to be fair game for vandalism.
It reminds me of the time back in the 80's when the R-62/62A's were entering service. They were not a week in service and someone had them marked up.
BX New Flyer Artic Guy:
I think that they should make the vandals clean up the trains that they mark up and replace the windows that they scratch up. Maybe if they had to work after doing the damage it may discourage them from doing it again.
BMTJeff
How disgusting is it too see that we live and work in a city filled with "animals" instead of normal people. Going to Philadelphia or any other city in the USA that has transit systems, where the heavy rail is still cleaner than ours and NO etch marks to be found either!...how amazing is that?...I am so sure those other cities have gangs too, but for some reason, they don't seem to bother vandalizing the transit sytems like they do here in NYC. Go figure, maybe those gangs are a "better class of people?"
not all gangs in NYC do that. the gangs here are more serious. it would be stupid little imature teenagers who cut school and have nothing better to do who mostly do this. scratching up subway cars and stuff is done bye them. what they need to do is put a set of transit cops. five for each train on them to patrol two cars each. on every subway train in NYC. i guess start with the cops in police academy for part of their training curiculum. it may not work however, its the last resort to stop vandals once and for all. the TA should step up on this seriously
Funny, I went to Boston recently and the cars didn't have a scratch nor did I see any litter. Picture that in nyc. HAHAHA!!
And I agree with you, NYC is a pit. But it could be worse, we could be in LA!
* "you could be in LA?:" you mean louisiania?? the trains are clean except newspapers on the floors etc. Not much grafitti & scratchitti
on the blue green & red lines ( when they do run STRIKE )....
also he could have meant "LA" ( LOWER ALABAMA ) !!!!
* smile when you say that !!
* "you could be in LA?:" you mean louisiania?? the trains are clean etc. except newspapers on the floors etc. Not much grafitti & scratchitti or damage caused by passengers etc..
on the blue green & red lines ( when they do run STRIKE )....
No, I mean LA,CA. But you already know how much I hate that place.
* I live near that place ....dont seem to like it too much either!!
what city do you love the most state & or town ??
( just thought i would ask ) thankz, salaam allah
did not care too much for ATALNTA either! the weather was always too bad !!
Yes, it's amazing how clean the T trains and stations can be. Rode the Red and Green Lines yesterday. Pretty good from what I saw.
About a month or 2 ago, I heard of an MTA plan to put cameras on the trains. Maybe the time is right for this, since you can't have a cop in every car. To all those civil libertarians who I can already hear whining, if you aren't doing anything wrong, then there should be nothing to worry about !
JDL
but what will cameras do? the criminal will just get away again and do more damage.
The cameras can help identify the perps. I think it is extremely likely that these vandals were caught doing something illegal before, and can, therefore, be caught.
if you aren't doing anything wrong, then there should be nothing to worry about !
So you feel fine about the government just getting up and searching your home? I thought not.
I agree cameras belong on the trains, but that's not the argument. In a public place, you don't have privacy in anything but your thoughts. A person sitting across from you can see you, so there's no problem with a guy on tape.
>>> In a public place, you don't have privacy in anything but your thoughts <<<
Although civil libertarians have no problem with cameras in public places to prevent vandalism or other crime, there is a privacy concern with computer programs now being developed that can pick out a specific individual in a crowd, and allow the government to follow his movements with overlapping cameras in all public places.
This result can be achieved now by having a surveillance team follow someone, but that is extremely expensive, so there is considerable review of the need before it is undertaken. If it could be automated and done without the high manpower expense, civil libertarians fear that it would be abused.
Tom
Pigs,
I was not talking about anyone's home. There's a huge difference, and I think you know that, between public and private. This is PUBLIC TRANSPORTATION. There are cameras in office buildings, banks, and in many public places. The least we can do, is try and protect the fruits of our high NY taxes !
Now you are using the public privacy (or lack thereof) argument. But what you said about nothing to hide is totally wrong.
And did I disagree with you about the public cameras?
Next time when you respond to a message, finish reading it first.
Sorry, Pigs. I misunderstood your message. Hey, it was 3:30 in the morning ! Gimme a break here !
JDL
Although I don't plan on vandalizing subway cars I don't know what the future might bring and I would like to keep that option open. What if the MTA installs a sticker or sign that is offensive to me as a railfan? What if they put a cover over the railfan window? I would want to be able to deface said sign or remove said cover. Also what if I am scraping some smutchz off the railfan window and to the camera I appear to defacing it when the defacement was already there?
How is it that a brand-new Shoreliner III already has its vesibule doors scratched up? Not just one car, but whole trains, in fact! These trains (except a small few that stop at Marble Hill) all have incredibly long distances before their first discharge stop, too expensive for your average vandal to do this while the train is moving. I suspect it occurs from 125 to GCT, since Conductors never collect tickets unless they see you enter the same car they're in (all seat checks already have been collected). Or, in GCT, when the train just sits there (often with at least one door open). The worst, though, are the mirrors in the bathrooms on the trains. I have never seen a clear one. Also, the digital signs in Grand Central north for the really low and really high tracks have been hit (not that anyone ever sees them, when was the last time a train left track 102A or 117? I don't think 117 even is a "track" anymore!)
Even on Metro-North? Jeez, nothing that runs on rails is safe from vandals in New York. This is bad. Even SEPTA's commuter cars with the old interiors don't have scratched-up windows. Wake up, MTA!!!
Bottom line is that NYC is a very uncivilized city. Not to bash the place but I would leave if I wasn't stuck here. Having lived in NYC for 27 out of 29 years, I'm not just spilling sour grapes, I've just about had it.
Yep, I lived in the city for my whole life.
Im living in suffolk, going to school here.
I went to the city 2 weeks ago and what a big difference.
I hate going back now. Just love it out here.
Transpotation sucks but the lifestyle beats the city anyday. No subway though :(
Different things for different people. I TOTALLY DETEST suburbs, the lifestyle and everything they stand for. As soon as I have this oppurtunity, I'm moving out of this horrible Brooklyn neighborhood. I think it's horrible because of the few useful things within walking distance and the lack of a subway. It's even worse elsewhere. And even worse when I didn't have a car!
You're right zman. It's totally out of control.
You seem to be unable to live in any city. Not New York, not Los Angeles. Want to live in a shack in the woods in Montana? Go ahead!
How is it that a brand-new Shoreliner III already has its vesibule doors scratched up? Not just one car, but whole trains, in fact! These trains (except a small few that stop at Marble Hill) all have incredibly long distances before their first discharge stop,
too expensive for your average vandal to do this while the train is moving. I suspect it occurs from 125 to GCT, since Conductors never collect tickets unless they see you enter the same car they're in (all seat checks already have been collected). Or, in GCT, when the train just sits there (often with at least one door open).
Another possibility is that the car you saw had been used recently on the Waterbury branch. That branch is infamous for vandalism, attracting what seems like a lot of dirt balls among its ridership.
Yes, Philly's subways and trams are cleaner than ours (and they're faster, even the M4s). So are the stations. New York's a sad story when it comes to cleanliness. Look at it this way, New York is nowhere near Godliness
Philly is clean? obviously you have never been in the Market Street passageway-- reeks of urine. Broad Street line- they smoke on the platform in front of cops and nothing is done.
the problem is not NYC but today's generation having been raised without concepts of right and wrong. They think they can do what they want. Freedom has limits. Try to cross Times Square with no traffic light. You need order- suppose I decide that a red light means OK to go and you decide green is go-- we'd have big accidents.
In an organized society you need rules and they are set by the controlling people of a particular group.
I once told someone who jumped when I wouldnt let him in for free--
"I need a walkman, can I take yours"-- of course I did not want the thing but you should have seen the looks and words I got. I added "Well that is what you are doing with the subway." I can not print the answer I got--profanity.
It also in today's Daily News
http://nydailynews.com/2000-10-04/News_and_Views/Crime_File/a-82679.asp
As we all know the FRA cleared Aclea Express trainsets for 150mph NY to BOS and 130mph NY to WDC. I heard that they needed to install a 5th cab signal aspect indicating 2 clear blocks ahead and when trains revieved a Super Clear they could go 150mph. Is this new cab signal installed NY-BOS and does the lack of this cab signal NY-WDC limit the speed to 130? What would the cab signal display show, | over | (which is possible on existing equipment)? Too bad these signals are cab signals only. A Super Clear (flashing green I would guess) and an Approach Normal (green over flashing green maybe?) wayside signal would be cool.
I believe...New Rochelle to New Haven (MetroNorth)...is limited to 80 mph...someone correct me if I'm wrong....
I think it's 90 mph, but for a pretty short stretch.
The NYP-WDC 130 MPH speed restriction exists everywhere the 1930's style catenary suspension is in place, which includes all of WDC-NYP ex-PRR and some of the ex-NYP-New Haven portion of the route. The newer catenary betw. NH and Boston is designed to withstand the 150 MPH speed. It has to do with improvements in the tension. You can plainly see the differences in the suspension between the PRR style suspension, one suspension cable, looks like
.
|
.
and the new style suspension, 2 suspension cables, looks like
. .
\/
.
if you have traveled on both portions of the NEC.
That catenary restriction is total bull. If anything can withstand 150 mph its something designed in the 30's when over engineering was at its finest. I never heard of the Experimental Silverliners or the Metroliners having catenary problem when they were tested at speeds from 156-164 mph. Still I would not think the current 4 block system would work with 150mph or even 130mph running. When an engineer hits an advance approach he would have to reduce train speed by 105 mph in a single block.
I will have to look to see where I read about the catenary speed restrictions when I get home and let you know...
I'm sure the catenary restriction is a part of it (stipid FRA), but I think the extra cab signal might be required as well.
It's not the trolley or the 1930's design, it's the "ramping" of the wire as it goes under overhead bridges. The ramping is not designed for the 150 MPH speeds, the severity of angle of approach currently used causes the pans to leave the wire. The work of redesigning the ex-PRR/NH wire is underway, but there are a lot of bridges over the NEC in those areas and multiple tracks to be reconfigured. It's a big job and can only be done in low traffic periods.
Oh, that's a much more valid reason. Could they allow 150 on certain stretches like Midway to Fair? There are few if any bridges and that's where all the testing took place.
From the May, 2000 issue of Railway Age magazine:
Article: "Get Ready for a Great Ride"
By William C. Vantuono, Editor
Page 42:
"Here are the facts, as explained to Railway Age by both Amtrak and the supplier, the consortium of Bombardier and Alstom:
"…The trainset will operate at speeds up to 150 mph on the New York-Boston North End segment of the NEC, 135 mph on the New York-Washinton South End. The slower speed on the South End is due to the limitations of the old, Pennsylvania Railroad-vintage variable tension catenary system. The modern, constant tension catenary installed between New Haven, Conn., and Boston will easily accommodate 150 mph. The trainset has been run at speeds approaching 170 mph in Rhode Island…"
Disclaimer: Author and publication credited, and less than 400 words.
Visit Railway Age at www.railwayage.com.
Oh great, not sledgehammer engineering time again :/
Listen, the PRR's catenary system is incapeable of effectively and safely holding up to sustained 150mph operation. Neither is the New Haven's. The modern "French" (actually BRITISH) stuff you constantly complain is "too light" to withstand such operation, is, in fact, designed for it.
It also stays in place MUCH better than fixed tension. which moves all over the place, especially in turns. It also lasts longer, and is MUCH less prone to dewirements. In addition, it costs a lot less, and if the wire over one track goes down, it doesn't take down all the other tracks like PRR or New Haven style stuff does.
In short, it's a much better system.
I don't even think the new stuff is made out of Copper! How can you have catenary wire that not made from the best*/prettiest conductor? A wire failure will not always effect other tracks and the PRR tested many hi-speed trains w/ no problem. Maybe they should design a better pantograph. Like the Stiensen model they used back in the 30's. I love looking out the window and watching the messenger moving up and down while the auxilliary moves up and down in 10x time. Liberty green copper wire, big copper pipes and bars, chain insulators that scream hi-voltage, that's electric railroading. If variable tention is the problem then we need more struts and braces to beat that wayward wire into submission. I don't even know what holds the modern wire up. Maybe some sort of magic or govermnemt subsudy.
What about approach limited and approach medium. don't they come before a straight "approach?" I thought they were used to slow trains from Normal gradually over a series of blocks, to avoid the scenario you describe. But I'm just theorizing.
Dave
Approach Limited and Approach Medium are distant signals that come before a non-Stop interlocking. Amtrak uses a 4 block system with Advance Approach before Approach, but Advance Approach calls for a reduction to Limited speed (45) and concieveable a 150mph Acela could face a 105mph speed reduction.
By the way, I have found out that Acela Express service should start sometime around Nov. 7.
What happened to Oct 29?
"We never said October 29th, that must have been in a dream you were having. Perhaps you should see a psychiatrist about these hallucinations?" -Amtrak representative
It came after October 28 and before October 30
Any rumblings yet on when the final answer key for the exam will come out?
This article appeared in last Sundays NY TIMES real estate section. I hope all the NIMBYs read this so they can see how wrong they are about transit systems in their backyards.
http://www.nytoday.com/scripts/editorial.dll?fromspage=re/RealEstate.htm&categoryid=&only=y&bfromind=18&eeid=3154230&eetype=article&render=y&ck=&ver=2.10
I saw the article on the front page of the real estate section. I'm sure that it did little to comfort the NIMBYs, who probably see development as "sprawl."
BTW, there's not much point in posting NYTimes links after the date of the article. Unless you have a subscription to NYTines on-line edition, the link is only good for the day of publication.
[BTW, there's not much point in posting NYTimes links after the date of the article. Unless you have a subscription to NYTines on-line edition, the link is only good for the day of publication.]
There have been several posts on this subject in the past week or two. It's been pointed out that Sunday Magazine articles remain online for a week. It has been pointed out that SOME daily articles are still there 3 days later.
This particluar article from the Sunday Real Estate section is still online Thursday morning.
You're right! Sorry about that; I thought they all disappeared over night. The article is still on line today, 6 days after publication.
i know how those fartknockers got in. At Unionport there is a hole that was ripped open in the live wire gate facing the trees and bushes. they would run in there and and run up inside the cars since they aren't locked and the cars aren't connected via those springs that connect the cars for passenger safety. then thats when they started their vandalising. always seen that damn hole in the fence when passing on Dyre 5. TA should repair it after this.
(At Unionport there is a hole that was ripped open in the live wire gate facing the trees and bushes. Always seen that damn hole in the fence when passing on Dyre 5. TA should repair it after this.)
Maybe they should stake it out.
You know the old saying, "If they didn't want to cars vandalized they should have fixed the hole in the fence." A hole in the fence should be considered an open TA invitation to vandalize and if I were in charge I would consider a stakeout entrapment. Its like parking a luxury car in a slum. The owner should have no expectation of safety.
hole in the fence should be considered an open TA invitation to vandalize and if I were in charge I would consider
a stakeout entrapment. Its like parking a luxury car in a slum. The owner should have no expectation of safety.
I hope you're major isn't LAW! Neither of these situations are
entrapment. I agree that a hole in the fence is something the TA
should expect to be exploited, but that hardly gives vandals
license to do so. Equally, auto theft laws are not suspended
in "slums".
Entrapment means to coerce someone into committing a crime when
they would not ordinarily do so. Some clear-cut examples would
be an undercover narcotics officer threatening a buyer with violence
unless they made a purchase, or a highway cop coming up behind you
in an unmarked car in a single-lane road witha double-yellow line
and driving agressively to try to provoke you to speed.
Just up the voltage in the fence to like 1 - 5kv, but limit the current to .5 ma or so.
Any metal part they touch will remind them to not use that fence hole anymore, but it's not fatal.
Does anyone know whatever happened with that pilot program the NYCTA had running the Redbirds with the enclosed security cameras?
I remember a thread here that talked about it a while ago.
Was it a success or not? It seems that it would be. I remember there were posts that said those cars saw little or no vandalism in them.
Why not put cameras in these new trains? It seems that such a move would greatly reduce grafitti (and crime too).
it will happen. they will put them in. also mylar is resistant towards the "acid etch" that is used to scratch wintows.
Denver's LRVs have security cameras, one at each end. The cameras themselves are in the cabs, with a small hole in the bulkhead for the lens to go through. Graffiti has not been a problem, and even the upholstered seats are still in good shape.
Portland Oregon's max light rail is installing closed circuit cameras in all trains and buses.so far the trains are in good shape....
Anyone know what the deepest station in the system is? Every time I take the 4-5 to 59th st, I can't believe how many steps/escalators there are to get upstairs. Is this the deepest one?
ws
I believe the 4/5 are so low at 59th becasue the N/R are between them and the local 6. It was a dual contracts station, I believe.
I read that 191st Street on the 1/9 is the deepest station in the system.
Lexington Ave and Roosevelt Island on the 63rd St. line are also unusually deep.
191 Street is the deepest station.
Only the local platform was part of the original station. Both the express and the BMT platforms were added much later.
From a street surface-to-track level standpoint, 191st St. is the deepest, with the tracks 180 feet down. Roosevelt Island is the deepest relative to sea level, AFAIK, although I don't know the exact depth.
It was a dual contracts station, I believe.
The upper level was, but the lower level was cut from the tunnel walls in 1962.
191 St.(1/9) is the deepest station in the system. Others that are almost as deep are: 168 St.(1/9), 181 St.(1/9), Roosevelt Island(Q), and Lexington Ave.(Q).
Read the Line-By-Line descriptions on this site. I have measured most of the deep stations with my depth altimeter, and the depths are written into the descriptions.
take a number.. 191st Street it is.
Metro-North will open its Croton-Harmon Shop to the public on October 21, 2000 from 10am to 3pm. Admission is free. Equipment, maintenance areas, along with a Fall-folliage train ride can be seen. Free parking is availible at the Croton Station on the Hudson Line. Shuutle buses will run from the lot to the shop area.
Dear Sir,
Thank you for putting out the Metro North shop open house information!
Does anyone know if the North Croton area is open so I can see the SPV-2000's?
joe
Is the fantrip going to make a stop at the open house?
It would really help to further justify the 60 bucks for admission.
I almost forgot about it, but it starts now and runs through 12AM
Come at any time.
It WILL NOT be on Saturday.
I was just there, and nobody was there.
BTW my screename is R142
Clark Palicka
CEO TrAnSiTiNfO
http://www.nyctransitinfo.com
It was around 4pm when I got on a 7 express at Times Square. It was making a loud whistling sound (more than the normal charging), and for about 6 minutes from when I got on other T/O's and a supervisor came in the train. It was then announced the train was out of service. It sounded like some sort of brake pipe rupture.
Anyway the train on the other platform became 7 express, but it got pretty crowded along the way as we were the first train to come after about a 10 minute delay.
Well, after my recent ride on an ACMU train, I couldn't help but notice the odd variety of cars within the fleet, more than your average fleet diversity. So, after school today (yesterday) I decided to try and catalog every ACMU and what its characteristics were. I obviously missed a few (NWP Yard keeps one train home every day, Croton Harmon keeps one car, and I know I missed one Hudson Line departure because there are 3 trains that stay in Croton-Harmon). But, its more complete than anything else I've seen.
Click here.
I will be adding to it as I see more cars. 1158 is the one in Croton-Harmon, I don't expect to get close to it anytime soon.
Well, at Croton Harmon this Sunday (I've been going there a lot for some reason) I boarded a 30 minute late Amtrak train, which became a 45 minute late train because of engine problems. At the door, I asked the conductor the fare, he said $20 (yikes), and that the weekday fare would be going up this week to $19 (last year it was $13). I got on anyway, and waited for him to show up. A few minutes after we finally got moving, he came by and collected the seat checks. He did not seem to notice I didn't have one, and walked right by. Maybe he thought he got me at the door, or collected my check already, or was distracted, but somehow I got away with a free ride. To celebrate, I decided to treat myself to a meal at the café car, but they had just closed (glad I didn't pay, what shoddy service). Nobody got on at Yonkers (who would?), and we proceeded to NYP. The train went fast through Riverside park, and we held up a Circle Line boat at the swing bridge.
When we arrived at NYP, the Turboliner was across the platform, which became the 5:30 to Albany (with the same conductor). Now I know how they get it back to Albany to become the 12 Noon inbound on Monday (Mon-Thurs its the 4:30 to Albany, but not Friday).
This summer, coming down on the Ethan Allen, the train was 4 hours late and they said they would NOT be collecting the tickets AND gave away the food for free.
I got free food on my 4 hour late 3 Rivers. I'm glad it was late because I saw more of the line in the daylight.
Are there any photos or diagrams on the overhead belt systems that powered the machine shops of the 1900's as i'd like to model a machine shop with a traction car barn thanks.
Probably not what you want exactly, but the "Dave & Buster's" establishment in Philadelphia (and maybe their other locations as well) has a belt powered overhead fan system that's pretty interesting to trace out. And if you're a photography buff as well as a railfan stop by the NYC B&H Photo store on 9th Ave. It has an overhead package delivery system complete with switches and lifts...
A restaurant that at one time may have been a 1/2 decent trainwatching spot on SI, RH Tugs Restaurant on Richmond Terrace in Snug Harbor, has a belt-fan system as well. I recommend the baby-back ribs!
-Hank
karl... i love the look of the old machine shops with their belt driven machines... i have seen them in the boott cotton mills museum in lowell mass., which is the actual spinning and weaving floors of the cotton mill at that site... also the baltimore museum of industry has a machine shop which is belt driven...
i have a couple of book about old baltimore and pittsburgh... the baltimore book has a picture that i think you would find helpful... it is from the carroll park shops of the united railway and electrical company from 1901...you can clearly see the pulleys and shafts on the ceiling as well as a load of belts connected to machines on the floor level... there are workers in overalls around the machines, as well as two men in suits and derbys who are counting their millions :-)
i'd be happy to make you a copy of this and a couple of other photos of knitting mills... just e-mail me your address...
The A. C. Gilbert Company also had belt-driven machinery when American Flyer S gauge production began in 1946. It was gradually phased out.
Just this morning on the CBS morning show they were at a kazoo factory near Buffalo with belt-driven machinery. The belts all went to an axle that was hung from the cieling.
-Hank
Brooklyn Technical High School had two "belt jungles" into the 1970's, and may still have them today. Most of the kids that went there hated those shops, but they were actually the better shops, usually reserved for the Mechanical Course students. A large AC motor was mounted on a suspended platform at one end of the shop near the ceiling. A long shaft (or series of shafts) about 1" in diameter ran the length of the shop supported from the ceiling on friction bearing supports that were wrought iron castings in an inverted "U" shape. The shaft held large diameter pulleys (about 24" diameter) which drove through a system of metal stiched leather belts about 4-6" wide and 1/4" thick. The belts came down from the pulleys and wrapped around other pulleys on the individual machines. Wire mesh belt guards extended up above the machine to about ten feet. All of the machines had a clutch mechanism that allowed the pulley drive to turn at all times. Try to get a copy of "Machinery's Handbook" at the library. This book has information on belt driven machinery including drawings of the supports, pulleys, belts and general shop layout. Good luck!
As far as I know the East Broad Top RR in Rockhill Furnace, PA. still has their machine shop with an overhead belt system still intact, The railroad ceased operation as a common carrier in 1956, but everything was preserved and part of the railroad is still operated as a tourist operation.
“…the EBT shops, as with others of the time, was entirely based on steam power. A single large engine converted the steam to the extensive overhead system of shafts, belts and pulleys to machines all over the shops.”
Quote from the virtual tour of the EBT shop complex online.
"All of the belt, steam and air driven machinery and tools are still in the complex. Although the machinery no longer runs..."
Have you ever visited the EBT?
It's like a wonderful trip back in time!
I've gone to the Fall Spectacular each of the last 4 years. I have yet to visit the shop, since I go with a group of 3 to 5 people and majority rules. The shop tour hasn't been ruled out; it just hasn't worked out yet. This thread has whetted my appetite, though, and I'll lobby for it tomorrow.
That's right, the Spectacular is tomorrow. I unfortunately have never been to one of those weekends, or the old Winter Weekend that they used to have in February years ago. I did get up there about three weeks ago, to play tourist and take my annual train ride. EBT is only about sixty miles from where I live, and the drive is a scenic one.
I did get to see the machine shop many years ago through the kindness of Roy Wilburn who was the operations manager of the RR for many, many years.
Each time I visit, I can't help but wish that I could be transported in time back to the 1940's when the EBT was still an active railroad.
I took the East Broadtop shop tour on Saturday. The overhead belt system is awesome. The main shaft was driven by a stationary water-tube boiler and belts and shafts run all over the place. All the machinery, belts, and shafts are still there, with shafts running into adjacent rooms with their subsystems of belts and shafts still in place. One shaft exits the main shop building below ground level and travels through a trench covered by iron plates to the blacksmith shop next door, which has a vertical shaft in the corner running to the ceiling to run the machinery there. It's a fascinating system.
I also opted to ride the M-1, the gasoline-electric built by the EBT in 1926 using Brill's blueprints, since Brill refused to build just one narrow gauge car. It is the only gas-electric railroad car in North America still using its original machinery (the standard gauge gas-electrics were all converted to diesel or were scrapped).
The Rockhill Trolley Museum, as usual, operated a plethora of vintage trolleys, interurbans, snow plows, snow brushes, et. al.
The EBT, as usual on the occasion of its Fall Spectacular, had 4 steam locomotives running, as well as the M-1.
Your description of the machine shop is a lot better than anything I could have written, but it has been many years since I had my tour, I can't even remember that underground shaft!
I assume that the engines used were 12, 14, 15 & 17?
I should have gotten there Saturday, but I missed it again.
I assume that the engines used were 12, 14, 15 & 17?
Yes, and #16 was on display out in the yard. #16 had compressed air connected to its whistle and participated in the whistle blow (along with M-1, M-7 and the 4 engines under steam), but it sounded like an air horn.
We got an extended lecture from Prof. Glass on the second M-1 run because the locomotive pulling the train ahead of us suffered a malfunctioning lubricator and had to be hand lubricated while returning slowly to Orbisonia. It was repaired in time for the night train, but the last afternoon train was annulled because of the delay.
Thanks for your kind words.
Bob
You have never commented about the number of people attending the "Spectacular". Was the property really packed with fans? Was it to the point that parking was a problem? Did you get a chance to try some of those fries from the trailer near the roundhouse? I really miss the snack bar that they used to have in the station. One of the crewmen told me that they have removed all of the kitchen equipment from the room, so I guess that it will never be a snack bar again!
I am surprised that they were able to move #16 out of the roundhouse. I think the original intentions 30 years ago were to get those last two engines operational, but it never happened.
I didn't try the sweet potato fries.
The Spectacular was very well attended, more so than last year when the weather was damp. The local parking lots were full and the school grounds were filled with cars in spite of yellow tape at the end of the paved portion intended to discourage parking on the grass.
A number of people attended the EBT on Saturday and the Altoona Festival on Sunday; I suspect others did the reverse. Reportedly, all motels in the area were booked.
To all who answered my question,thanks i bought some 'o'scale machines which were available in the narrow gauge gazzette in the 70's they were for a overhead belt system model,so now i'll start to build this shop,and send the photos of the model online,again thanks. it's nice to know that one can find help on this site where we have a common intrest.
There have been numerous books published about the EBT, and I vaguely remember seeing a large picture in one of them of the actual machine shop. I have flipped thru the one book I still have, and it is not in that one. I wish I could remember which book I saw the picture to tell you where to look.
How is the TA going to solve the problem of mobility throught the R-143 trains with the transverse cabs? Married pairs are out of the question, in an emergency a cop would have to unlock 3-4 cab doors to get to the last car from the front. Four car sets would work for the Eastern Division, but that would require some C/R board repositioning (then again, spend a couple billion on new subway cars and that doesn't seem like too big a task). And the mainlines would need 5 car sets, which means that they cannot easily be sent to the Eastern division should service increases warrant it.
Possible solutions (other than linking):
Single cars with collapsible cabs (SEPTA BSS Style). Unlikely since the isolated nook created would be a vagrant's paradise.
No cabs (hear me out!). Have 3 double doorways, and one single end door at each end of the car, with conductor controls. Basically, an NJT Arrow 3 with more doorways.
They're at it again,
MTA SAYS HUNDREDS OF SAFETY CHECKS NEVER DONE
Peace,
ANDEE
I've been advised on this board that schedules for the subway lines are available at Jay Street. Where exactly would I find them there? Are they in an area that is accessible to the public only during business hours, or could I pick up schedules during the evening?
I plan on being in the city next week for non-rail activities, and hope to make a side trip. I appreciate the assistance.
Jim (RailBus)
In the Lobby of 370 Jay Street there is an Information center. That is where you find all the maps,etc,..I am not sure of the hours...you may be able to find them out by calling 718-330-1234.
Peace,
ANDEE
Thanks, ANDEE!
As info, I called NYCT customer service - the 370 Jay St. information center is open Monday through Fri from 9am to 5pm, as I expected.
Thanks again!
Jim (RailBus)
Is there a special way that double slip switches are referred to on interlocking model boards? Are there special lever designations?
It seems to me like you could draw the board to look like two normal switches laid out "point to point" (trailing then facing) and then have two switch levers. The thing is that in reality the lever represented on the left actually controls the _right_ set of points in the field. I laid out a "truth table" grid and the logic is the same both ways.
This is all a result of careful study of the new double slip that came UPS yesterday, and not based at all in railroading fact. --Please set me straight!
Dave
As with your question on L vs R, it depends on the railroad
and who designed the interlocking. Generally on 3 position
levers the L on the lever corresponds to the signal which is
left on the model board, but that's not always possible.
Consider two tracks converging which are one above the other
on the model board. The designer would probably assign the
home signals governing the trailing point move as an L-R
pair, but perhaps not.
I don't do model railroading, my hobby is 1:1 scale, but
if I were doing model signals, I'd only worry about these
details if I were modelling a specific prototype interlocking.
Then I'd try to get the drawings. Otherwise, just pick a
system which is consistent and generally follows the practices
of the railroad or type of railway you are trying to model.
Double-slip switches can be controlled with two lever functions,
or with a single lever normal-reverse. If you think of the
tracks approaching the double-slip as 1,2,3,4, then you can either
have 1-3/2-4 or 1-4/2-3 routing. All other combinations, while
physically possible to establish with the points, result in
interlocking conflicts. By the same logic, a crossover is almost
always controlled by a single lever for both switches.
Thanks for your response, informative as always.
The designer who wrote the book I've been referenceing, usually assigns the two signals governing diiferent legs of trailing point move to the same lever, and lets sWitch Correspondence determine which signal Home relay picks.
I'm not modelling specific prototypes, but just prototype practices, including relay designations, signal aspects, switch and signal numbers, etc. I made a conscious choice NOT to model approach locking, because I'm not insane. HO trains also stop on a dime, and deal with reversed points more gracefully, barring the occasional 800-scale-foot fall to the floor.
Half of my double slip is part of a crossover, and the other half is a singleton, so I have no choice but to use two levers.
Double slip is 3 & 5A
\
\
\
\ 3
____\________
\ 5A
\
\ 5B
________\_____
ASCII art doesn't work too well in this web-bbs software because
it eats whitespace.
If the book in question is Phillips Railway Signaling book from
the 1940s from Simmons-Boardman, then the interlockings and circuits
therein are lifted mostly from the AAR American Railway Signaling
Principles and Practices booklets, which in turn were generally
lifted from un-cited actual railways.
Yes, That's the book. It's a reprint I stumbled across at the California Railway Museum in Sacramento. Quite informative, although "Coded pulse" is the "latest thing"
Yes, ASCII bad. HTML good.
My "Big Yellow Signalling Book" has about five examples of interlocking plants that it refers to, two of which have Normal and Reverse signal levers, and three have Left, Normal and Right signal levers. So far so good.
Two of the examples with L,N,R levers show the "R" signals on the _right_, but the other one shows the "R" signals on the _left_ (?)
Did common practice vary from road to road, or is this some heinous typo, or do I have too much free time?
I'd like to know before I build my HO panels all backwards!
Dave
It can vary depending on the location. Trying to figure it out on your own could be a very tedious operation with no guarantee of getting it right. I have seen many times in the towers where the designations can be flipped around, sometimes for no apparent reason.
Just a quick reminder that a number of us SubTalkers will be heading up to BERA this weekend to ride some of the ol' reliable equipment (R-9, R-17, BRT Gate car #1227, etc.).
Hope to see some of you guys there.
BMTman
i've gotten word that doug "the demon" diamond will be piloting the malbone street disaster train reenactment, using two of the recently restored malbone street wrecked cars...unfortunately, time did not permit any brakes to be installed on the cars... join doug for a nice high speed run on the cars, as he seeks to break the current speed record going around hairpin turn...
the reenactment is planned for late in the afternoon on saturday, with the cars packed with ecstatic subtalkers who yearn to experience the thrill of a disaster... although i won't be on the car due to a sensitive stomach, i will be by the disaster site with equipment to measure the kinetic energy lost and the heat created after the crash... i am hoping to prove that the "heat death theory of the universe" is false...
be there to witness " farewell to fellow and gal subtalkers autumn ride in the country"
heypaul, your mentioning of the "Malbone reenactment" was supposed to be a surprise.
You just can't keep things quiet, huh? ;-)
BMTman
Not only can't he keep things quiet, he's far from funny also! Very far!
Lighten up! Will ya?
Peace,
ANDEE
heypaul,
Don't forget to take your camera!
karl... i just reminded myself a little while ago to try to get some shots of the gate cars... i promise that i, my personal photographer, or my publicity agent will get off some shots on saturday...( of the gate cars )
heypaul,
Thanks a lot! I sure wish that I could get up there for all the festivities. I am sure there will be a lot of subtalkers up there and I will be anxious to read all of the posts afterwards!
karl said: " I am sure there will be a lot of subtalkers up there and I will be anxious to read all of the posts afterwards! "
having all those subtalkers and other railfans up there will be enough to make me very anxious....
heypaul, I'm glad to see you're still with us, someone, in a pirate costume jumped off the Empire State Building last night.
Peace,
ANDEE
Well, shiver me timbers, bucko!!
;-)
heypaul,
Whatever you do, don't let "BMTman" anywhere near 1227!
He wants to wreck it!
Have no fear, Karl, we're just having alittle fun, that's all.
BTW, 1227 is a personal favorite of mine (after all how can I live in Canarsie and NOT have an affinity for a BRT Gate car with authentic trolley pole operation?)
BMTman
I was just funning you right back Doug!
Any poster with a handle like BMTman could never do any harm to a retired subway car, even the maligned R-16, if there was one there.
1227 would be my favorite if I could have made the trip. 659,1349 and 1362 as well, but I imagine they will be hidden away in the back of one of the storage barns.
I'll try and get you some good shots of 1227 as it sits by the new-and-improved high-level platform, now dubbed "Avenue L" (as in the old Canarsie Line stop). Obviously, there's a joke in the name as it also means "Avenue El" ;-)
BMTman
I assume you will get some GREAT wrecked gate car shots after that daredevil, Doug, does his "Luciano Manuevour" at Branford ("Look, Ma, no brakes!!).
BMTman
I sure hope they don't let you within 500 feet of 1227!
Or your tape recorder!
Heypaul will be the special guest for the festivities. I say put a brake handle and reverse key in his hand, and let him run like the wind with 1689 in all of her blazing glory. The sun will now shine because 1689 is blessed with his presence.....
Quick, someone get a pic for the tabloids!
-Stef
thanks stef...
i will have to check with my attendants to see if they would permit subtalker's and other railfan's lives to be placed in my unstable hands... i swear to do nothing to harm 1689, but cannot guarantee the safety of the aforementioned people, especially those who do not find me funny...
I get the feeling heypaul will plant himself directly above the air compressor on 1689 and record it.
You may be right, my good man. It's time to get the tape recorder out again!
While he's there, he can get some Lo-V, Hi-V and R-17 sounds for audio recording.
-Stef
Malbone Steet disaster? What's that?
sarge... that was just another one of my attempts to lower the level of discourse here at subtalk...
You mean you were kidding about the reenactment? Next you'll be telling me that the Tooth Fairy isn't real either.
train dude said: " Next you'll be telling me that the Tooth Fairy isn't real either. "
i can't vouch for the tooth fairy's reality, but i must warn you that the tooth fairy is very politically incorrect..
And if I mentioned the Easter Bunny, I'd be getting E-Mail from the PETA people.
Then there's the Great Pumpkin.:-)
Give my regards to 1689 and 6688.
Will do, Steve.
I remember a while ago that I saw a 9 car #4 train running in revenue service.
Has anyone remembered if the #4 ran with less than 10 cars anytime within the last decade?
It could have been borrowed from the 3 Line at some point. It's the only thing that I can come up with.
-Stef
It couldn't have been recently as the R-62's have been permanently linked into 5-car sets for a few years now.
Wayne
For those of you who from time-to-time may have wondered, "What happened to the X train today?" (fill in any route for X)... read the wonderful new essay on A Day in the Life of a T/O written by Alex L. It's superb!
Thanks Todd. I should hire you as the site's press agent. :-)
How about "A Day in the Life of a Railfan"!
Now that would be interesting.
If you want I could day in the life my trip home on Wensday, although most of it will be me taking Midterms. My trip home might work because I might try an NJT Atlantic City line-Amtrak NEC connection. I'm visiting my uncle down the shore.
In the weather biz, Dave, you ALWAYS have to be thinking about "image." Maybe one day I'll come up with "A Day in the Life of a Radio Meteorologist," but only when my midday break includes a ride on a Slant-40 over Manny. It will be three years ago this coming Friday-after-Thanksgiving that I did just that with fellow SubTalker Jeremy Whiteman, and experienced a station overrun on the Brighton Line.
In the weather biz, Dave, you ALWAYS have to be thinking about "image." Maybe one day I'll come up with "A Day in the Life of a Radio Meteorologist," but only when my midday break includes a ride on a Slant-40 over Manny. It will be three years ago this coming Friday-after-Thanksgiving that I did just that with fellow SubTalker Jeremy Whiteman, and experienced a station overrun on the Brighton Line.
Reading that brought back painful memories of working in the A division back in 1994. I will NEVER do another pick in the IRT, so help me god.
We are looking for an employee in any of these tiles to do their story;
Tower
Station Supervisor
Subway Car Maintainer
RCI
Bus Maintainer
Cleaner--car and station. Both stories will be printed.
Other titles
be sure to let me know if you wish to remain anonymous or use your handle/real name.
Many pieces on this site started by requests to posters here. See your name in lights!
"86 St./72 St.: More people getting on and holding the doors. Break the rules and use the "Veg-o-matic" routine to get the doors shut."
What is the Veg-o-matic" routine?
I guessed they kept opening and closing those gillotine-esque Redbird doors untill people got the point or the severed limbs were pushed out of the way.
This morning I heard a PATH station agent at Grove Street talking about how the PA is seriously considering ways to lengthen the NWK-WTC trains to 10 cars. They want to do this by 2002. At Grove Street, the east end walls would be knocked out (revealing the original street entrance--which apparently still has the old ticket booth). I figure both NWK and WTC can already accommodate 10 car trains. Harrison can probably be extended easily... but Journal Sq. and most certainly Exchange Place are going to have problems. What will they do there-- "the first three cars do not open at Exchange Place"?
Giuliani will go nuts if, at the same time the PA is refusing to contribute to the N train extension to LaGuardia it is willing to spend money to reconfigure stations.
Aside from the regional equity aspects, it's probably a good idea.
What will they do there-- "the first three cars do not open at Exchange Place"?
It works for Metro-North !!
And at South Ferry, 145st...
LIRR: Kew Gardens, Forest Hills (1st 4); Pinelawn (Last 2)
SIR: Tompkinsville, Nassau, Atlantic (one door)
A common announcement on Metro-North (Conrail when I used to ride on it) used to be: "__________ will be next. People in the first two cars and the last two cars will have to move if they wish to get off." At Bridgeport, which could accommodate a 10-car train, some conductors would announce, "Bridgeport will be next. All the doors will open at Bridgeport."
On the NEC when they cannot use the local tracks, the C/R will announce "Passengers for _____ please use the door between the first and second cars." It takes about 7 minutes for a 10 car train to pick up and discharge passengers, and they must walk across the local track at track level. Once, a freight train was stopped about 50' from the stairs on the local track, and a woman was terrified to cross in front. They had to tell the LE of the freight train to turn off the headlights to get her to cross.
Another time (at Rahway), the passenger train had to wait for a 40 car freight train to pass before allowing people to detrain. They certainly weren't going to allow people to walk across 3 active Amtrak tracks to the other platform.
An interesting side question to his topic:
With the impending private sale of both the World Trade Center and the 2 NYC area airports, what, if anything, would justify the Port Authority's continued existance? Who would run the PATH should the PA cease to exist?
Hard to say since it's an interstate operation; I think NJT would be better suited to run it rather than the MTA; although maybe it's time to consider revamping the MTA so that it is truly metropolitan rather than just New York City and New York state's surrounding suburbs...
I like that-- MTA Hudson Tubes! then-use MetroCards and tokens and set up the turnstiles at all WTC and sixth ave stations for free transfer to subway within 2 hours.
RTO can call it D Division and use their current work force and facillities
Speaking as a New Jersey resident I would rather see the tubes flooded than handed over to the MTA. Because of attitude a non-partisan bi-state agency has to run the bridges and tunnels. This way there is no clear winner (which would mean a looser/bitter/angry state), only 2 loosers which in comparason bakes us both winners.
Speaking as a New Jersey resident I would rather see the tubes flooded than handed over to the MTA. Because of attitude a non-partisan bi-state agency has to run the bridges and tunnels. This way there is no clear winner (which would mean a looser/bitter/angry state), only 2 loosers which in comparason makes us both winners.
I agree the MTA taking over PATH would be a bad thing, but the PA could sure try harder to make the PATHs a little more attractive. Longer trains, nicers cars, more frequent midday service would all be pretty good. There is a whole demographic of people who are willing to use the Subway but wouldn't even consider riding the path
There is a whole demographic of people who are willing to use the Subway but wouldn't even consider riding the path
I'd say there are many more people who think exactly the opposite.
(There is a whole demographic of people who are willing to use the Subway but wouldn't even consider riding the path)
(I'd say there are many more people who think exactly the opposite.)
Peter's right. The higher subsidy, paid for in New York, make the PATH posh by subway standards.
I'd glady pay $1.50 for:
Better overnight/early am service--every 30 minutes is pathetic
better weekend service--every 15 minutes midday is bad.
I'd glady pay $1.50 for:
20 minute overnight after 1am until 5am
10 minute weekend service on Newark to WTC.
Abolish the "Around the World" hoboken/33rd train.
Direct Newark/33rd trains on weekends, midday-every other train weekdays and every train weekend from 33rd to JSQ would now go to Newark.Thye could use Yellow/Red marker lights
Look for a PATH station agent they'll help you.
PEACE,
Andee
Yes Direct Newark-33rd service is a must. So is better weekend and evening service. A lot of PATH riders transfer from commuter trains. Therefore the PATH trains should have interiors like nice commuter trains. Let's have some nice seats - BART-style cloth or the fake leather stuff, not plastic (yes I know the subway has plastic too but except for the E line they don't transfer from Commuter Rail). Let's make the stations cleaner, and how about bathrooms in Journal Square that one can actually use? In the 4 times in my life that I have been there they have been the most disgusting bathrooms I've ever seen in my life. Now for what they really need:
Hike the fare to 1.50 - but at the same time coordinate with NJTransit to provide passes that are valid on both services. Since NJTransit commuter rail uses distance-based fares, the passes would be issued in various amounts of money with the value printed on the front of the pass. In old-style systems, the passes would be flashed to the conductor who would give you the ticket. In POP systems you would simply swipe the card through the machine, and out comes your ticket. However tickets would not be issued more than 4 times on the same line in a day, and tickets would not be issued from the same station within 4 hours of each other, to prevent multiple people from swiping the card a bunch of times for all of them. All passes would be valid for unlimited rides on PATH, and those in excess of 2.00 face value would also work on the Newark Subway and Hudson-Bergen as well as have a 1.50 transfer value towards any express bus service operated by someone other than the new york companies (MTA, Green, Queens Surface, etc.).
but except for the E line they don't transfer from Commuter Rail
You've never been to New York on a weekday, have you?
Direct Newark-33rd: Umm... they do, its called New Jersey Transit. PATH doesn't want NJT as an enemy in competiton.
NJT like charges 2-3$ extra just to use the Tubes.
(There is a whole demographic of people who are willing to use the Subway but wouldn't even consider riding the path)
(I'd say there are many more people who think exactly the opposite.)
Peter's right. The higher subsidy, paid for in New York, make the PATH posh by subway standards.
It's not that PATH is posh in comparison to the subway. It isn't, except for the absence of scratchitti. But at least among some people, PATH has a better reputation, being viewed more as a commuter train with a generally upscale ridership than as a form of urban transit.
For a dollar what do they expect, Chanpaigne?
Good question. So fix it up, make it real nice and clean and charge 1.50
First you want to raise all the bridge/tunnel tolls in NY and put tolls on all the free bridges. Now you want to raise the PATH fares. Why are you so intent on raising prices in NY. I have an idea-Lets double all the light rail and bus fares in Tacoma!!!
Ideally, PATH would have been combined with the NYC subways and intergrated into the IRT system 60 years ago. If they had done that, you would have the Port Authority-MTA battle over rail operations you have today, and maybe they even would have extended the No. 7 train westward into N.J., when the suburban population started straining the highways leading into the city.
New York is the only major city that deliniates its subway lines so sharply along its borders. It would have been nice if someone could have done something about that before the don't-build-anything NIMBY ethos took hold, but only Robert Moses had the skill and smarts to pull off something like that, and we all know what his opinion of mass transit was.
Ideally, PATH would have been combined with the NYC subways and intergrated into the IRT system 60 years ago.
But because the H&M ran on PRR freight tracks from WALDO to DOCK that would have been impossible.
Which is why I said "ideally." PATH still couldn't merge with the IRT today even if the Port Authority and the MTA wanted it, until they get the FRA regulations removed.
They could do an OA--like they have for Staten Island. Call the OA company the MTA Hudson Tubes Operating Authority with their own crews, rules, facillities. MTA runs LIRR and Metro North- both class one railroads and the subways are not FRA.
I like the one pass idea- whoever runs the trains to Newark.
10/07/2000
Well with all this talk of privitzing things today, maybe they can sell PATH for private operation. Then the the new company can call itself the Hudson & Manhattan Railroad ! Of course finding a company president with name MacAdoo wouldn't hurt!
Bill "Newkirk"
The problem is that it doesn't make money. You'd either wind up with huge fare increases and reduced ridership, thus making the current bridge/tunnel situation even worse, or you'd need subsidies which would turn it into a "how can we get larger subsidies" game.
I would ride PATH for Champagne for a dollar. And I have no real reason to go to Jersey!!!
I still think what we need here is a regional transit system with free transfers between lines including the city subways and buses, PATH, and the HBLR.
With the impending private sale of both the World Trade Center and the 2 NYC area airports, what, if anything, would justify the Port Authority's continued existance? Who would run the PATH should the PA cease to exist?
Without the airports and the WTC, and leaving aside PATH for now, the Port Authority would still have the interstate bridges and tunnels, the Bus Terminal, and the seaport facilities.
One interesting factoid is the great profitability variation of the Port Authority's different activities. The bridges and tunnels are huge cash cows; the airports and the WTC are quite profitable; the seaport earns a modest profit; and the PABT and PATH are bottomless pits into which one pours money.
(One interesting factoid is the great profitability variation of the Port Authority's different activities. The bridges and tunnels are
huge cash cows; the airports and the WTC are quite profitable; the seaport earns a modest profit; and the PABT and PATH
are bottomless pits into which one pours money.)
I actually just had to write up an analysis of this. The GW Bridge, the trade center, and the airports are the money winners. The Lincoln Tunnel, believe it or not, is now LOSING money, since the tunnels have required a lot of interest paying reinvestments in recent years.
The PATH has cut the fat, and now covers about as much of its operating costs as the commuter railroads (44 percent), but far less than the subway (70-100 percent). At $1.50, it would be close to the coverage of the subway.
A decade ago, when the recession hit, MTA was forced to raise tolls and transit fares. The Port Authority cancelled a bunch of investments in New York instead, and used rising airport profits to cover the cost of keeping fares and tolls low. When New York objected, the PA claimed NYC didn't care enough about "the region." Wish we could get into that region that we are supposed to care about.
If PATH fares and PA tolls equaled MTA fares and tolls, the Port could fund the N to LaGuardia, a one-seat ride from JFK, a rail freight tunnel, etc. As it is, the only thing they want to fund is another commuter tunnel from New Jersey to Grand Central.
A decade ago, when the recession hit, MTA was forced to raise tolls and transit fares. The Port Authority cancelled a bunch of investments in New York instead, and used rising airport profits to cover the cost of keeping fares and tolls low. When New York objected, the PA claimed NYC didn't care enough about "the region." Wish we could get into that region that we are supposed to care about.
I have no particular like or dislike for the Port Authority, but they were absolutely 100% on the money with that comment. As observant SubTalkers may have noted, I have long deplored NYC's parochial, world-ends-at-the-Hudson viewpoint. It's the sort of viewpoint that enables the most devious corporations to get huge tax concessions by making utterly specious threats to relocate to Jersey City. It also is a viewpoint that is woefully obsolete, totally out of touch with current economic reality. And lastly, it is a viewpoint that most other cities do not follow, not with their much healthier regional ways of thinking.
Well, the word around the water cooler is that my employer, Morgan Stanley Dean Witter, will use the threats of moving it's ENTIRE operation out of the World Trade Center and across the Hudson to the Harborside Financial complex in Jersey City if they don't get a sweetheart of a new lease after the current one expires in 2002. Since MSDW is the WTC's largest and most high-profile tennant, I'd shudder to think of the lengths they'd go to keep them put.
Jeez, I hate that friggin' Harborside complex and I really would HATE to be forced to work there.
you should have seen the harborside 20years ago. it was a REAL dump then. PATH had is headquaters there before they moved. you a had to park out on the piers. if fact the whole area was a dump.
I dread going there. Compared to the WTC, there's NOTHING there. Not even a decent !@#$% hot dog stand.
Maybe New Jersey dosen't care for you either!
Wish we could get into that region that we are supposed to care about.
You make fun of us in your late nite Television and local news shows. You think out state is polluted and dirty and smelly. After years of maligining the region you want US to let you into it? Tough Cheese!
(You make fun of us in your late nite Television and local news shows. You think out state is polluted and dirty and smelly. After years of maligining the region you want US to let you into it? Tough Cheese!)
Not me. I like New Jersey. I got my Master's degree at Rutgers on scholarship.
Journal Square could probably handle the trains - during the platform renovations there, they moved the stop markers forward and then back, so they could close the ends of the platforms for the renovation work.
Exchange Place can handle 8-car trains westbound. Eastbound could handle 8-car trains (possibly excluding the PA-4's since their doors are closer to the ends). The problem is that the rear end of the eastbound platform has been encroached on by assorted wiring cabinets and storage.
The way to lengthen Exchange Place is to relocate the substation and shed in the westbound entrance to the pocket and excavate the station westward, and between the pocket track (L) and the G/H tracks. You could easily handle 16-car trains in this configuration.
It's really about time you people started to think REGIONALLY. It terme of business,transportation ... The sports industry is way ahead of you. i give you the GIANTS and JETS. They are in NJ but carry the NY logo and Name. Merge the Path and IRT . Run one seat and return between LGA and Newark. Extend the path via 6th ave to the #7 line. Through the Sunnyside yards and up the approach to the Hells gate Bridge , but branch off to Lga. Let folks from Connetecut have access to the airports via the Hellsgate. Connect Lga to jfk Via the Rockaway branch and the Nimby's be DAMNED. Take this region into the 21st century with the airports connected with FAST, I repeat FAST , one seat rides. Get on at an airport. Next stop from Newark airport, Newark, next stop Penn Station, Next stop either JFK of LGA. Maybe include Bridgeport.
avid
An ABC News reporter was on the platform at Jay Street today, asking people if (based on the NY Times report of missed inspections) they were worried about the signals. I said that I wasn't worried at all, but I was more interested in catching my train than my 15 minutes of fame, so I declined to be interviewed on camera.
I should have said that I am more worried about the Manhattan Bridge, but given that I have been involved in that issue at work, that probably wouldn't be P.C.
Does anyone have any inside information on the signals controversy -- ie. the report by the MTA inspector general that supervisors didn't always do back up signal inspections, then forged information as if they did?
There was an article in Wednesday's NY Times concerning the proposed "on time" criterion. It mentioned that the original system of recording the trains at the terminals was abandoned because the dispatchers routinely recorded inacurate arrival times.
The IG has reported several instances of forgery on supervisor time sheets with the object being increased overtime.
Al O'Leary was interviewed live on WCBS yesterday morning. The official thinkspeak is that these are data entry errors. He stated that there was a 2% error in data entry. He also stated that performance was the bottom line. He said that in the 1970's they had a derailment every 17 days and that now if they have a derailment once a year that we're in serious trouble.
A 2% error rate for data entry is not very good. There have been two derailments so far this year - Lex Ave and DeKalb Ave. So, I guess it's official - NYCT is in VERY SERIOUS trouble :-) The not very alert WCBS reporter did not note this contradiction.
(The IG has reported several instances of forgery on supervisor time sheets with the object being increased overtime.)
Failing to do your work during straight time, then getting it done during overtime, is the oldest scam in the public sector. My guess is those guys are nearing retirement, and trying to boost their pension with big OT for a year or two.
That's what NYC spends on. Funding for the non-profiteers, big pensions for the white welfare crowd, and interest on debts run up by those who have moved away. No wonder we can't build things, or pay public employees a decent wage.
I heard a month ago on the news that the MTA wanted to upgrade the signals on the 7 line to 1960 technology. Some people oppose saying that it was not worth it because the current signals are going to be replaced in 7 years. Does anyone have any details?
There is a saying that my teacher tells me it goes like this "We create what destroys us." People vandalize becuase nobody is contolling them, the law has no severe penalty, and the security at the yards are horrible.
I have looked at the vandalism on the trains ever since I joined subtalk, and I noticed that for the past 3 years the most of the grafitti and scratchitti (or however it's spelled) is mostly on the outside of the train. Not on the inside. I blame that on yard security...the security is poor, anyone with a gatecutter can enter a yard, with the trains standing there its like a canvas...
The other reason that vandalism runs amuck in the past and in the present is becuase of the parents of those children. They dont care about those children and lets those children go anywhere they want too, they join gangs, and they do vandalism. In the early 1900's to the 1950's there was no vadalism on the trains cause the parents though their children proper manners, and that was important.
Poor penality's for vadalism are also a problem, they need to make them tougher to make sure that they dont do it again, or they will pay.
We love the subway's, we need to keep it clean, but its not enough thats it only us.
Christopher Rivera
yes but some of those unruly teens and other vandals are done into it by the bad minded who influence them. some of these kids come from good homes. not all of them are from bad homes.most of them do it to mark gang territory. (will they ever get the pick that no territory belongs to them)some do it just for mischief reasons. they should toughen the laws after this has happened. give the gov't a couple of months to a year or so.
[Poor penalties for vandalism....]
A few years ago, Transit prosecuted some vandals and attempted to recover the cost (labor and materials) of replacing a damaged window. The judge sentenced the vandal(s) to community service instead, ruling that reimbursement would be "cruel and unusual" because the vandals were poor.
Just think: Asking people who impose costs on society to actually pay those costs is cruel and unusual. Oy!
>>> The judge sentenced the vandal(s) to community service instead, ruling that reimbursement would be "cruel and unusual" because the vandals were poor <<<
I am sure this was the judge in the criminal case. The idea of ordering restitution beyond the defendant's ability to pay is self defeating and not allowed. It is a scam used by white collar criminals to avoid serving prison terms. The defendant usually makes a deal to pay restitution of some large amount, ($750,000-$2 million) in exchange for no prison term, arguing that it he goes to prison he cannot earn the money to make the restitution. Once on probation he never gets around to paying the money back because (he claims) his conviction prevents him from honestly earning the amounts necessary to make the large payments. Since this country has no debtors' prison, he is not placed in jail for failing to pay the restitution. Finally to get the case off the books at the end of the probation term, the restitution order is modified to the amount already paid. With the vandals there would have been a similar result. They would have come back to court saying they could not earn the money necessary to pay, and finally they would be excused.
If the TA had sued the vandals for damages in a civil court, which they could easily do after the criminal conviction, they would have been awarded the full amount regardless of the defendants' ability to pay. The TA may have made a decision that because of the unlikelihood of collecting from the defendants, it was not worth the cost of bringing a civil case.
It is an unfortunate fact of life in our society those who are "judgment proof" can be much less responsible in their actions than the rest of us.
Tom
(If the TA had sued the vandals for damages in a civil court, which they could easily do after the criminal conviction, they would
have been awarded the full amount regardless of the defendants' ability to pay. The TA may have made a decision that because
of the unlikelihood of collecting from the defendants, it was not worth the cost of bringing a civil case. It is an unfortunate fact of life in our society those who are "judgment proof" can be much less responsible in their actions than the rest of us.)
They could make them work it off doing something unpleasant, at minimum wage.
>>> They could make them work it off doing something unpleasant, at minimum wage. <<<
Good idea, but first we have to repeal the 13th Amendment to the Constitution.
Let's see how long would a person have to work at minimum wage to pay off a $100,000 judgment, considering that you would have to leave him enough to get food and shelter, clothing and other necessities of life from his wages before paying a portion to the judgment, and the judgment will be accruing interest at the legal rate on the unpaid portion. You do the math.
Tom
If the TA had sued the vandals for damages in a civil court, which they could easily do after the criminal conviction, they would have been awarded the full amount regardless of the defendants' ability to pay. The TA may have made a decision that because of the unlikelihood of collecting from the defendants, it was not worth the cost of bringing a civil case.
That may have been a bad decision. Just because the vandals are poor today (if that's even true), doesn't mean that they'll be poor years from now. Court judgments in NYS are valid for ten years and can be renewed. By setting up the right procedures, the TA could get judgments today and periodically re-check the vandals' financial situations. Five, ten, even twenty years from now, the TA could seek to enforce the judgments. Imagine being a 35-year-old family man and suddenly finding your wages garnished because of some vandalism you did when you were 18? Schmuck!
>> By setting up the right procedures, the TA could get judgments today and periodically re-check the vandals' financial situations <<<
It sounds good, but as a strategy with all cases I do not know if it would work. I do not know the costs of obtaining a judgment in New York, but I assume it is about $500.00. So it starts out with a $500.00 bet that in the future the defendant will have some assets. You could expect to spend another $100-$200 each time you look for the person in the future to find out if he has assets. Once you find assets (like a job with a salary), the defendant may quit and go underground. These expenses without a return do not look good to the bean counters, and since the day of reckoning would be so far in the future it would not deter other vandals.
It might work if certain defendants were chosen, such as spoiled college kids who will be expected to have a good income, but OTOH these people might put up a fight which would increase the cost of obtaining the judgment.
I researched a situation in California in which a group of crooks used phoney American Express cards to obtain goods which they resold. All were convicted and sentenced to five years in prison. American Express sued all five to recover their losses. Four of the five defaulted and Amex got their judgment. The fifth, from prison, answered and cross-complained for false imprisonment. The case dragged on for more than three years with multiple appeals to the Appellate Courts and all the way up to the California Supreme Court. In the end Amex won, but the files in the case were about four feet thick, and from looking at the legal documents filed by Amex I would guess their legal bills were in the low six figures. It is extremely unlikely that they ever collected a penney on their judgments.
Tom
10/06/2000
[The judge sentenced the vandal(s) to community service instead, ruling that reimbursement would be "cruel and unusual" because the vandals were poor.]
"CRUEL & UNUSUAL"
Sounds like a bleeding heart judge to me. Why us it cruel ? Does the vandal have the right to deface public property and was illegally arrested for expressing their rights guaranteed by the constitution ?
Why is it UNUSUAL ? Vandals should not be punished and held responsible for their illegal actions ! The foundations of society are being chipped away by this cancer called liberalism.
Bill "Newkirk"
Ok,so let's assume the judges own car,or home was vandalized how would he then find the vandals,you see judges don't use public transportation like most of us do,they have schufured limos, so he they could care less how the condition of trains are......this dumbass judge sure has his head up his ass.
Will somebody please tell me what it was that happened on April 20, 1946 that goes everybody going in the first place? I'm clueless on that point.
>>> Will somebody please tell me what it was that happened on April 20, 1946 that goes everybody going in the first place? <<<
Fred;
At the risk of seeming rude to some of our fellow Subtalkers, let my point out that you can click on "Previous in Thread" at the top of each post and thus work your way back to the initial post.
April 20, 1946, was the date the Bridge-Jay St el station burned down.
Tom
I know that on my favorite line, the Sea Beach, the R68 is now the main car used, but, sorry to say, I forgot the other two trains that are used on that line. I believe the Slant 40's are one, but is there an R type also used. I believe that there were three, but I could be wrong about that, too. Forgive me, I live in California and only can ride the "N" when I get to New York. Can somebody clue me in?
Fred, it might be the R-44 or 46 cars that run on the "N" besides the hippos and the slants.
BMTman
Definitely not, its the R-32. No digital signs on the N.
Currently, only the R68, R40 slants and R32's run on the N. The R46 runs only on the E/F/G/R lines and the R44 is exclusively on the A.
the N has R-32, R40 Slants and R-68's on it.
--chris
I've also seen R-40M/R-42's on the N fairly recently.
Thank you gentlemen to all of you who responded to Sea Beach Fred about the type of cars used on his favorite train. I think it's a good idea to know what your favorite trains has in the way of cars.
The R40M/42 doesn't run on the N
10/06/2000
[The R40M/42 doesn't run on the N]
I didn't see this personally but heard about it. I believe this happened at the time of the recent Williamsburgh Bridge reconstruction closure.
Bill "Newkirk"
There were some R-42s on the N when they were new; in fact, 4572 and 4573 showed their N signs in The French Connection. I rode on an N of R-42s in July of 1971 and, man, did it ever move.
Yes, they did run on the N during the Willy B closure. I railfanned on one during this time.
3TM
It very briefly ran I think last summer. Probably saw it for about 3 days, then never again. Was nice to see something different, even with the 3 different types I see on my N.
=)
Your N? I like that. Good to see another Sea Beach fan on the web. BTW, when I lived in New York, the last 14 months were spent in Astoria. I lived in the Woodside Apartments and went to PS 10.
They do run on the N occasionally. I videotaped one at New Utrecht Ave in 1998.
--Mark
Yes, when the Willy-B rehab was going on, R-42/40Ms were shopped & stored at CI, and when the M didn't need them a few made their way onto the Q and N.
Yep. That's the only time I got to ride R42's on the Brighton express post GOH. They're as fast as the slants....
Well, for me, the Sea Beach line will always be associated with Standards and Triplexes, which held the fort until the mid-60s. No wimpy letters then; it wasn't the 'N' train, it was the Sea Beach Express (or manybe the No. 4).
-- Ed Sachs
As of today, as of 4PM, no decision has been made as to what car assignments will be made with respect to the Manhattan Bridge flip service/63rd St. connection service. As of this afternoon, there are 4 plans still being considered and there is nothing to say that new combinations will not be proposed. I am still reviewing the 4 plans but by far, the most interesting is option plan #3 which has the G service using eleven 4-car R-68 consists out of Coney Island.
One thing is clear. Heavy maintenance, SMS & floor replacement will need to be scaled back until the R-143s begin to come on line. The most optimistic projection is the 3rd quarter of 2001.
I'll post more as I review the plans in detail but Wayne better start using pencil.
10/06/2000
[I am still reviewing the 4 plans but by far, the most interesting is option plan #3 which has the G service using eleven 4-car R-68 consists out of Coney Island. ]
R-68's on the (G) ? That would be interesting. Crosstown Hippo's ?
Bill "Newkirk"
R68's on the G? That would stink as far as operating for OPTO. They are very uncomfortable trains to perform OPTO on.
Question: If this were to be implemented, would the G line maintenance fall into the hands of C.I.Yard or would Jamaica Yard still maintain control?
If the R-68s are used on the G, they will be maintained in Coney Island. Since the V train will be run out of Jamaica yard, the gain of the V fleet (16 full length trains)and the loss of the G fleet (11 4-car trains)will resut in a gain of more than 100 cars added to the already huge Jamaica fleet.
I would think that the R68 is better to perform OPTO on rather than an R46 (and an R44 for that matter). A motorman can operate an R68 standing up making door operation a bit less of a hassle. BTW this is why I am seriously considering working the Franklin shuttle next summer to get away from the furnace like summertime conditons at Jamaica Center & WTC without taking a big pay cut. On an R44/46, you have no choice to get up and down out of the seat at every station. I bet that this may be the reason why I have been seeing a few new seats on the R46, maybe guys are plopping themselves back into the seats on the weekend G and breaking/weakening them!
I'm one of those guys who HATES to operate standing up. I did that enough as a C/R. So for me it's uncomfortable to work an OPTO R68.
As far as doing a pick on the FS, you might wanna try the Rock Pk Shuttle instead. Unless 18 trips with nothing but timers(one set at 5 mph) tickles your fancy.
True but the size of me! I would need a shoehorn to get into and out of an R44 seat. And to do that at every station!.......I can easily stand up for a 5 minute trip and do my sitting in the crew room. At least if I have a BIE (which I had to walk around 3x in 3 months, a horrible string of bad luck), I would only have 2 cars to walk around, and the noise of an all underground route! I started there when they closed the WillyB and by the time the winter pick is over, 4 picks of 4 trips per day with the prospect of another summer on the E makes a change of venue rather appetizing. Despite that the PM E line supervision and co-workers are among the nicest and most down to earth group of people I've ever had the pleasure of working with. With the exception of my home terminal Metropolitan Ave. of course!
Well for one thing, you are absolutely right as far as the people on the E and J/M are concerned.
But the three BIE's in three months is absolutely NOTHING.
On July 7th, I HAD FOUR BIE'S IN ONE DAY while working the pm 301 PAJ switching job. Now THAT'S bad luck!!!
I'm not so sure about one p.m supervisor on the E. You know who I mean.
I will assume that it is _not_ the R68A you are talking about.
You assume correctly
I just received my K-Line 2000 2nd edition catalog. They have added some pretty impressive reigonal equipment such as:
NJ Transit F40PH with 4 Comet II Coaches
Metro-North FL-9 with 4 'blue striped' coaches
LIRR RS-3 Loco in Blue & Orange paint wit Dashing Dan Logo and 4 heavyweight coaches.
LIRR MP-15 in Blue/Orange with a LIRR tankcar and a familiar B/W caboose in orange.
Nice stuff (albiet a bit pricey) if you model this reigon in O scale.
Okay, a language question ...
We've all seen those multilingual "no smoking" posters on subway cars, the ones with black backgrounds that repeat their message in 16 languages besides English. Most of the languages are identifiable: Spanish, Chinese, German, Korean, Russian, and so on. But two of them defy identification.
Two of the languages have a similar but not identical Arabic-style alphabet. One of them presumably is Arabic. But what about the other? I didn't know of any other languages using that kind of alphabet.
Another langugage is written in the Roman alphabet, and looks something like French (it isn't, there is regular French used elsewhere). Any ideas what that might be?
The line that says Onay okingsmay is Pig Latin.
Is Pig Latin now considered a foreign language in New York?
Better ask Pigs of Royal Island!!!
Peter,
It could be Creole.
B"H
one of them is hebrew
But Hebrew doesn't look like Arabic.
It's Urdu (but Farsi,spoken in Iran, also uses the Arabic alphabet)
I was just about to say Farsi.
Is Urdu really more common than Farsi that it would be more likely to end up on a poster?
What IS Urdu?
>>> What IS Urdu? <<<
A language used in Pakistan (and NYC).
Tom
Spotted on an uptown #3 this afternoon. On a poster advertising MVM's, someone had put a sticker that read, in essence, "These machines will replace token clerks. Who will help you if you are in trouble? Write the MTA." The sticker was about half the size of a standard sheet of paper, rather crudely printed with black letters on a white background.
I've seen those a lot. Are those even put up by token clerks? Or are politicians responsible?
Ceiling fixtures from the lower level concourse were taken by an electrical contractor during the recent renovations. The perp was arrested and is out on bail. Story in Friday’s Times.
I just read.that MetroNorth..will have its open house..Saturday
October 21st...from 10am to 4pm....I've been there before...And its
worth seeing....(MetroNorth to Croton Harmon...short walk to shops).
This is now beyond random bad luck.
Three five plus minute delays of the F train this week, following three discharges last week, all due to door problems! And this morning, the A was delayed due to door problems as well! Fortunately I was able to squeeze on a C. If the problems weren't cleared up, things would have gone down hill from there.
Once again my wife was on the delayed train. Once again I caught up with her at Jay Street, despite it being my day to drop off the kids at school. She was late for work three times this week.
To save a few minutes, I hopped the J for one stop at Broadway-Nassau. The floor of the car was full of cuts, some of which were filled in by bondo. The cuts appeared to be razor cuts.
What's going on here? Mass TWU sabotage, or a failure to maintain the trains strike? Has management ordered cutbacks in the maintenance schedule and parts purchases to "save the fare?" Maintenace cutbacks might explain the J and Redbirds, but would they do that to the R46es which they will need (based on their debt load) for 25 more years?
This is enough to turn a boring bureaucrat into a conspiracy theorist. Why change the on-time rules just now?
Until the last few weeks, I can recall few if any door-based delays for more than a decade.
This is now beyond random bad luck.
Three five plus minute delays of the F train this week, following three discharges last week, all due to door problems!
Did you get any car numbers? Maybe it's been the same trainset.
"Until the last few weeks, I can recall few if any door-based delays for more than a decade."
I suppose that I can give you the simple, honest answer. Whether you'll accept it is another story. The simple answer is:
SCHOOL IS OPEN
I see it every day. Kids holding doors until the motors overheat. Last weekend on 2 D trains, 36 pieces of glass had to be replaced. Stantion poles are bent from the miscreants swinging on them and even swing sashes torn off. It's a credit to the maintenance facilities that we can keep up with the amount of damage that we see on a daily basis. it's a credit to the TA that we maintain full service.
You mean the poles people hold on too? Those poles seem pretty strong.
Yup, them's the ones. They are ripped out from the floor and ceiling mounts, too.
("Until the last few weeks, I can recall few if any door-based delays for more than a decade." I suppose that I can give you the simple, honest answer. Whether you'll accept it is another story. The simple answer is: SCHOOL IS OPEN)
School has opened every year for the past decade, so something has changed. Either the kids are worse, or the maintenance is.
Hmmm. Crack epidemic from 1985-92. Children born addicted reach age 14 from 1999 to 2006. Sounds like to save his reputation Rudy had better get out of office before the crime rate starts going up.
The kids are worse!!
It would seem that the result of fewer police patrols on the trains since the Transit Police was disbanded is starting to show up. The morons are starting to take over again.
If you want to see door problems, then come down to Philly and ride the M-4 cars, in fact, a few months ago, The Philadelphia Daily News did three stories on the M-4 fleet, the first story, it was about the trucks cracking and the wheels falling off in the rail yard (good thing it was out of service or the next accident would make the 1990 30th Street accident look like a fender-bender). The next story was about the doors, either they do not open at all, or they open on the opposite the platform side (there is a perfectly good reason why not to lean against the door). The third story was about the seats, which is the least of the problems. They say new equipment will have bugs, the M-4's have a swarm, and I can't wait to transfer to Fern Rock.
Yesterday my train had a Door problem at the end of the AM Rush Hour.
The problem happened uptown at Astor Place at about 9:11AM. I had a R62A and the problem was a door got stuck in the pocket. The delay was 6 Minutes. I wanted to help my Conductor but he closed the doors on me so I went back in my cab thinking the problem was currected but it wasn't and my conductor told me he was handling it so I just left him alone. A T.S.S did arrive and fixed the problem. The conductor I was working with was a New Conductor out of school car. The problem was in the 8th car.
Worse and worse. My wife tells me she was in the door with the problem. Evidently the conductor wasn't aware the doors are going downhill. For five minutes he was yelling "let go of the door," but no one was holding it, and it was closed. Then he came down and isolated it.
He should have figured that something was wrong after 2 Minutes of having a hung guard light.
I remember seeing a door stuck in a pocket about 30 years ago. Don't remember the car class, although I'm tempted to say it was an R-42. A passenger finally reached in, took hold of the stuck leaf, and pulled it out. The train proceeded with no further delay.
I've pulled a stuck door out of a pocket a time or two, but not for a decade or more. The door problems went away. But now they are back.
I'm not sure how much is fact and how much is perception. Door delays do affect MDBF and MDBF has not been negatively impacted over the last year or two.
Recently a door was stuck in the pocket on a redbird on the 6 at 14st. The passengers standing there didn't feel like doing it, and I was waiting for the R-142a right behind, so I pulled it shut. Unfortunately, I had to do this 3 times because the C/R kept reopening the doors.
Well perhaps because alot of the damn riders hold doors and contribute problems. It seems door holding is happening much more often on the subway. Even on the elevator in Manhattan Mall today, the doors almost close until some nut yells "hold the f'ing elevator!" and puts his hand in there. It seems that especially on the Queens BLVD line and 6th avenue, door holding is happening at every station.
They really need to start cracking down on door holding!!
Can we possibly agree on a time(s)and spot to meet, say hello to each other and possibly have a group photo taken ?????
We did that at the Kendall Park, NJ model train show several months ago and it was a lot of fun. I will be up with my buddy on Saturday. I will bring that photo with me for all to see.
As far as the tooth fairy is concerned, I concur that it is very PI
(Politically Incorrect) but remeber that when you hear that whistle blow this weekend it's the TOOT FAIRY.
>>>...the TOOT FAIRY.<<<
That would be Doug.
Peace,
ANDEE
Hey, I thought heypaul was the resident comedian.
Andee, are you giving some friendly competition to heypaul?
BMTman
I'll be at Branford at about 9:30 and will be helping out in various places. If 6688 comes out, and she most probably will since the weather appears to be good, I'll be with her as she goes down the line. How to identify me: i'll be wearing a blue Giants hat. Come over and say hello!
-Stef
I'll be there tomorrow. Here's what I'll look like. (And no, I'm not bringing my train with me :-)
Bob, are you the one on the rails or the bi-ped with the bi-focals???
That's what I wanna know!
;-)
BMTman
I shall be present.
I'm an easy spot... if you know the line.
I shall be present.
I'm an easy spot... if you know the line.
In keeping with the NY Theme weekend, I'll be wearing a Mets hat. Rooting for a SUBWAY SERIES. I think I'll be up there around 12:30PM. Depends on whether or not my friend needs to make a stop in Danbury. I'll know later today and may post it.
I wish I could, but it seems that NBC wants the #$@%@#% Yankees on TV, so the Mets game will be during the day (Go Mariners!) at 1 or 4pm.
-Hank
Now, now, Mr. E... the Yawnkees play
every other odd day.. and the Mets..
well.. you ain't seen nothing yet.
But the NY DAYS only comes around
the loop once every 365 days.. (or so).
I'd also mention the term "VCR".
I'd like to mention the terms 'Playoff' AND 'Tickets.'
Also things that don't come that often, especially, it seems, for the Mets.
-Hank
I'm working on the operations schedule right now. If SubTalkers
want to take a group shot, I'll put it on the board, probably
for around 3 PM.
And I'll take a SubTalker's photo tomorrow (Sat) at Seashore... it's our "Members' Day." I know at least four SubTalkers who will be there...
I have recently updated my website www.zdeno.com with the first pictures of the Queensboro Plaza master tower. It has the new model board as well at the control system that was installed with it. I also added a section about the Borough Hall compelex recently with many pictures.
Check all this out here:
The Other Side of the Tracks: A Website Devoted To The New York City Subway
Look at this: http://www.zdeno.com/images/qbq_9_25_00/qbp-013s.jpg
Are they using windows? Maybe windows NT? GOd help us all.
UNix is prefered.
Hard to tell but that monitor sure is NICE!
--Mark
Could be Linux XWindows.
What is wrong with Windows NT/2000 anyway? Other than ignorant Microsoft bashing?
What is wrong with Windows NT/2000 anyway?
The problem is not with Windows NT/2000 or Microsoft per se but the type of programming required for a GUI and its application to a real time control system. The same problems apply to Xwindows.
The object is to produce a bug free system that will perform without "crashing" or require "frequent" resets.
GUI software is event driven. User action - pressing a key or moving a pointing device (mouse) - results in a software event. The OS processes each event. The processing of an event frequently results in more "events" being generated. Eventually, all the events are processed and a letter appears on the screen or a cursor moves.
Much embedded control software uses an older programming technique. I still refer to this technique as a "skip chain" which refers to the machine language instructions on the PDP5/8. Essentially a snapshot of the input signals is taken. The program then scans these inputs and completely processes each one in turn. Any secondary input changes - as a result of such processing - are not discovered until the next complete iteration.
The value of the older technique comes in debugging. All possible input combinations can be enumerated and tested. This technique is not completely possible with event driven software.
There is an additional complication with the multitasking OS. It interposes itself between the application and the I/O. Its behavior may be difficult to document, especially if it is proprietary. Open source OS's do have an advantage in this regard. However, the last thing a control application programmer wants to do is to have to scan thousands of lines of OS code to document some glitch. It is only marginally better than contacting Microsoft support. :-)
The best compromise is to build a loosely coupled multiprocessor system. Have single task embedded controllers do the control system application. Have them communicate with GUI-based administrative console(s). In this way the GUI can crash due to poor design, the operator playing flight simulator, the love virus, etc. The embedded control system controllers will keep on working. The administrative console will resume showing the control status, when it reboots.
I was wondering about the technical specs of this site like what type of computer is it running on, CPU Clock speed, RAM, system volume and type of connection to the internet.
SOmetimes it seems slow sometimes its so fast all during the same time of day.
There was a thread about this within the past few days. Why not search for posts made by me and you'll find it.
Proposed 2001 service for the E and W trains as of 10/2/00
W Train:
6A-10P M-F Astoria to Coney Island - Astoria Peak Direction express
Late Eves, M-F & Weekends Coney Island - 57th & 7th Ave.
Late Night Coney Island to 36th St/4th Av.
E Train:
Same as now except;
M-F Peak hours, selected trains will run to 179th St.
Once again, these are the current plans only and none of this is cast in stone.
More later
I want express to 179th St, but if it's only select E trains it's not terribly useful.
Howdy from Dallas,TX!
I have been following the threads and visiting the web site daily for the last month or so. I guess it's time to get out of the closet and become a subtalker.
My handle may be a bit lengthy but it refers to the time that I was an avid railfan during the 60's and 70's and rode the Astoria line regularly. I'll take suggestions for a better handle from the subtalk masses.
Anyway, back to the topic, the proposed W service looks just like the Astoria-West End T of the 60's. Look at the historical maps (pre-Chrystie) on the site. The point is why not call it the T instead of W.
(Note: I'm aware of the roll sign issues.)
Out of the closet...
Astoria T-QT-QB-RR Railfan
All they's got is a DIAMOND "W" in yellow; no "T" except in white on R32/R38 cars. I would have opted for the "T" for historical reasons but I guess NYCT's logic is: a) they HAVE a "W" to use; b) "W" is for "W"est End.
wayne
Howdy from Dallas,TX!
I have been following the threads and visiting the web site daily for the last month or so. I guess it's time to get out of the closet and become a subtalker.
My handle may be a bit lengthy but it refers to the time that I was an avid railfan during the 60's and 70's and rode the Astoria line regularly. I'll take suggestions for a better handle from the subtalk masses.
Anyway, back to the topic, the proposed W service looks just like the Astoria-West End T of the 60's. Look at the historical maps (pre-Chrystie) on the site. The point is why not call it the T instead of W.
(Note: I'm aware of the roll sign issues.)
Out of the closet...
Astoria T-QT-QB-RR Railfan
All they's got is a DIAMOND "W" in yellow; no "T" except in white on R32/R38 cars. I would have opted for the "T" for historical reasons but I guess NYCT's logic is: a) they HAVE a "W" to use; b) "W" is for "W"est End.
wayne
A few weeks ago, I noticed that my R46 (on the F) was flopping quite a bit at the station. If a few passengers got on or off at the same time, the whole car tilted accordingly. Then yesterday the same thing happenned on my R46 R train, and again today of the F!
Is this a design flaw or evidence of something broken? And is it harmelss?
Andrew
Basically, the entire car body is supported by 4 bolster springs springs. There are also 8 equalized springs but as the name suggests, they are not for load bearing purposes. What you describe could be normal or it could be evidence of a weak or broken bolster spring. The determination would be based on observation and visual examination of the spring. One tip-off that there is a problem would be the condition of the threshhold plate. If it's broken or crushed, then it's a pretty good indication that something needs to be looked at. Juast to put your mind at ease, the riden might be a little rough but in general, a broken bolster spring does not compromise the safety of the car.
Basically, the entire car body is supported by 4 bolster springs. There are also 8 equalized springs but as the name suggests, they are not for load bearing purposes. What you describe could be normal or it could be evidence of a weak or broken bolster spring. The determination would be based on observation and visual examination of the spring. One tip-off that there is a problem would be the condition of the threshhold plate. If it's broken or crushed, then it's a pretty good indication that something needs to be looked at. Juast to put your mind at ease, the riden might be a little rough but in general, a broken bolster spring does not compromise the safety of the car.
The same thing happens here in DC on some of the Rohr cars (and probably Breda as well sometimes but I never notice it). Just a few too many people getting on or off at the same time.
I notice that a lot. Especially when the trains are speeding by my stop, one or two cars will tilt back and forth. I rarely am paying enough attention to see it when people get on and off, though I do remember seeing this a few times. I've learned to ignore it.
If the R-46s are rocking back and forth on the Queens Blvd. local trains, maybe its in hommage to their predacessors on that line, the R-16s, which would s-l-o-w-l-y do a rhythmic rocking back and forth, front car to one side, next car to the other, and so on, as they entered and left the station.
Train Dude,
I read your post in regards to the 2001 car assigmnent & the 4 plans with the most interesting was the G train receiving R68 cars.
What I would like to know on what the three other car assignment line are.
Please post information on subtalk.
Regarding the B division car assignments, the plans cover multiple (6) pages so posting the entire plan would be tedious. I'll try to condense it, however.
As for the R-142s & 142As, since I'm not involved with A division operations, I couldn't give anything more than an educated guess.
Train Dude,
I would like to know on what lines the R142 & R142A cars are going to be assign to & how many each line will receive.
In addition, when the entire R142 & R142A cars are all in service, what will the car assignment be for the IRT lines.
Please post information on subtalk.
R-142A's are going to the 6 line.
R-142's are going to the 2 and 5 lines.
There is info about this in other areas of this site.
Do yourself a favor and explore.
Peace,
ANDEE
Follo, The R142s <--- are going ONLY to the 2 & 5 lines. the R142As<----- are going ONLY to the 6 line. They will never see the 7 line what a shame. Only if they decide to do some tests there. (ya right) Other wise those are the chosen lines for the new trains. the 7 line is supposedly going to recieve the R62As from the 3 & 6 lines (again ya right).
7211-15 are back at East 180th Street Yard as of this writing and are on the road in test mode. I thought they were going to 207th St? They have returned to the place where they started out months ago.
What's the scoop?
-Stef
As of now your guess is as good as mind. They should have been at 207 St for about 17 more days unless there working overtime to get the train running again for the final 15 Day road test.
I am looking forward to riding STCUM/MUCTC on my trip to Montreal this weekend. Don't know how much I'll get to 'cause I'll be traveling with my wife and some friends, and I'm the only railfan in the bunch. I found STCUM and MUCTC on the web, but I could only find versions in French, and I don't know the language well enough to translate. My questions follow:
1) Are Quebecans so pissed-off enough about being part of English-speaking Canada that they purposely make it difficult for English speaking tourists to get information about their city? (I realize that the people there speak French, and that it ought to be incumbent upon me to learn, but I only have about 16 hours!)
2) What do STCUM and MUCTC stand for and translate to in English?
3) Are there English signs and English-speaking personnel in the Metro and commuter stations? While we're at it, will the people speak English to you freely if they know you don't know French, or are they like the European French who look down their nose at you for not knowing their language?
I'll let u know how the Metro is when I get back...
[Are Quebecans so pissed-off enough about being part of English-speaking Canada that they purposely make it difficult for English speaking tourists to get information about their city? ]
I often hear about how French Canadians don't like Americans and are rude to us however I've been to the Province of Quebec three times, twice to Montreal and once riding around rural farm areas. All 3 times were day trips by motorcycle from Lake George where I was staying. I've never had any problem. Most were helpful, considerate and nice. I guess people remember the bad apples. Also maybe it was 'cause I was on a Harley. And of course being from NYC maybe I'm so used to rudeness I just don't recognize it anymore!!!
Are Quebecans so pissed-off enough about being part of English-speaking Canada that they purposely make it difficult for English speaking tourists to get information about their city?
I've been there, and I had no trouble speaking to anyone, and I barely know any French. Just first ask "Parlez-vous anglais?" ("Do you speak English?") and most likely they'll speak to you in English. Try to speak some French, and they'll understand you can't speak and help you out. Just about everyone is biligual. They are very friendly toward Americans there. Getting around the Metro is easy. Just bring a map and match the station names with what is on the map. I couldn't understand the annoucements or even begin to pronounce the names of the stations, but I got around fine.
To me, Montreal is is kind of like practice for going to Paris. Everyone speaks French, but when you mess up, everyone is like, "That's OK, we really speak English, too." It's a great city with great people and attractions, and subway.
STCUM stands for la Société de transport de la Communauté urbaine de Montréal. In English this translates as Montreal Urban Community Transport Corporation, which is what MUCTC stands for.
Here's the URL for the English version of their official site:
http://www.stcum.qc.ca/English/a-somm.htm
Alan Follett
Hercules, CA
Merci.
Train Dude,
Since you posted your page in regards to the B division car assignment & that the plan covers multiple (6) pages so posting the entire plan would be tedious & that you'll ondense it.
I would like to know if you'll be posting the 6 pages on the B division car assignment for 2001, if so, when will you have this posted.
Please post information on subtalk.
No. He refuses! What have they been telling you on BusTalk about addressing threads?
-Hank :)
I was looking at my 1987 subway map with the Manhattan Bridge Reroutes and noticed both the N and R ran late nights. Why didn't the MTA save the money and man power and do this?
E-179 Street, Queens to WTC, Manhattan, Local
G-Smith/9th Streets, Brooklyn to Queens Plaza, Queens
N-Coney Island, Brooklyn to Ditmars Boulevard, Queens, Local
R-95th Street, Brooklyn to 36th Street, Brooklyn
Because MTA is synonymous with "Lacks Common Sense!" :-)
LCS?
So ALCS stands for America Lacks Common Sense and NLCS stands for Nobody Lacks Common Sense?
Today I recieved some great news, Union Switch and Signal Co. (once thought to be burried in some muti-national corp) is alive and well and has their main operation based in Pittsburg. You can go to www.switch.com (appropiate!) and check out their products. The website says they are engaged in some project w/ the MTA. I flipped through their catalogue and noticed that it contained lots of new micro-processor based, hi-tech signaling equipmnt alongside all their traditional products last designed in the 30's. So if you buy US&S you'll have Y2K technology controling 1930's equipment. Unlike Stfetrain Signals where all their stuff is modular and made of plastic, US&S still offers the traditional H-8 searchlight and the origional model PRR position light dwarf. They have some modular stop-light stuff, but it is clearly an after thought. Check out the site and download the catalogue. Its ont 3 megs.
all I recieved was..ERROR
Try this:
Switch.Com
Try this:
Switch.Com
I knew I should have previewed first!!
I rode Metro North for the first time today. I wanted to find out what it was like and if there are any differences from LIRR. I noticed that their ASC sounds different. Also, there Trains seem alot taller. I actually had to step up to board Train number 8105 an M-3!Also their brake release sounds different, and I also saw a ACMU-1100. The controls look like a Subway cars. Also, the Engineer was like I will probably see you at the open house on the 21st. Also, how do their signals work? They have Cab signals, and signals at interlockings. like I saw Red, double red, and flashing green.
10/07/2000
[. Also, there Trains seem alot taller. ]
I think you mean a lot cleaner ! Seriously, maybe high rail was used which gave the appearance of a taller car. The car height is identical to the LIRR's.
Bill "Newkirk"
Red over Red = stop and stay
flashing green = cab speed (whatever the cab signal says)
These are technically standard signals.
if a conductor or motorman gets to work on mass transit, and is late for work due to a delay in service, is that an excusable lateness? how much extra time should a crew member schedule into his travel time to be "safe" from criticism that he did not leave early enough?
Rule #5b, in part, states that no employee shall be penalized for lateness that arises from a significant delay in mass transit. For practical purposes, significant is usually defined as a verifiable delay of 20 minutes or more.
We have to get car numbers, times, etc/ and then we must bring in a letter from non NYCT transit providers.
I leave early enough to allow for cancelled trains. In the event of a major problem I could call and ask for an emergency AVA (never had to do this!) whicht hey may or may not approve. I could as for non-paid time off (again they may or may not approve.)
If the time is approved (Paid or unpaid) we have to bring in a note from the transit service provider.
In a related issue: If we have a waterpipe break,etc. we have to bring the bill!
For a death in the immediate family( NO aunts, uncles, etc.unless actually living is same quarters as you.) we must bring an original death certificate. A Notarized copy is no good!
You are allowed two days. (Extra would be AVA or unpaid- both only if approved.)
If you dont bring the original you will be considered to have been AWOL and can face discipline including suspension and possible termination.
Thankfully I never had emergencies arise. The one time I would have had to use an emergency AVA was before I started working for NYCT.(That involved a transformer on the NorthEast Corrdior NJT catching fire. Amtrak used a diesel to push us to Newark. If I had been employed by NYCT at that time and had been late, absent I would have needed a written letter from NJT- not a delay notice but an actual written letter.)
The one time I had a problem it was because of a bus that didn't come. How do you prove the non-arrival of a NYCT bus that only runs once an hour?
I guess you could call the customer service number for the bus line's company and ask for a letter.
I guess you could call the customer service number for the bus line's company and ask for a letter. I have the same problem with NJT and leave early enough so i could wait the hour for the next train. (At nights and weekends they run fourly! and they dont run 24 hours except for special times.)
I tell that to some people who geripe abotu waiting 20 minutes for a late night subway! I'd gladfy have 20 minute overnight NJT service!(I know- it will never happen!)
It's not a private line; these are real NYCTA buses - they accept my pass in the farebox. It's just on weekend evenings and nights, they match the ferry schedule and run once an hour.
OK. Get the bus number, marker number(from the windshield) and if possible Bus Operator number. Give that to the dispatcher who shouild be able to verify the info. (That si what I would have to do for Stations.)
or(Sorry about that!) take the earlier ferry.
Of course this situation can be alleviated by simply having management put in bunk-beds, cots and funtons in Crews Quarters so that going home will become a moot question. Furthermore, NYCT employees with families could be relocated onto MTA property so the workers will have their families close at hand, making commuting unnecessary.
Sorry, for giving some ladder-climber in management a pelthora of ideas...;-)
BMTman
Just out of curiosity, what is the policy regarding lateness due to mass transit delays where you work?
They cut him in two with a breadknife and make him lick the floor clean with his tongue.
Did I mention that he would have to drink his morning coffee out of a rolled up newspaper?
Actually, the policy is pretty rough.
On your first lateness, the supervisor will have you recite and perform all of John Cleese's "Silly Walk" routines from "Monty Python".
On your second lateness, you must imitate RuPaul (not heypaul) in full regalia, in front of your colleges.
On third latenesses, the penalty involves being stripped naked and smeared with honey. Then feathers are poured on you, after which you are then paraded up and down Madison Avenue till sunset.
Needless to say, I've never been late to work.....;-)
BMTman
John Cleese says people were always asking him to do a silly walk, and that he hated it.
I would imagine Ron Palillo got tired of doing Horshack laughs after a while.
Steve, I'd also guess that Curly got tired of being smacked in the head by Larry and Moe.
BMTman
Why, soitanly.:-)
The MTA should let workers sign in at any station instead of a crew change point. Workers would be issued a PDA that can flash download any new bullitins or general orders. Workers would be issued their own workbelt and train tools. Radio and batteries could be picked up at the token booth. The worker would then proceede to the platform and wait there with a sign. The first T/O or C/O who's about to leave would see the new arrival waiting on the platform and do a "tag team" style trade off. Then the worker swipes his pass his payclock would start/stop.
Train Dude,
I would like to know if you happen to have the 6 page car assignment for the B division for 2001, if so, can you post some more information.
Please post information on subtalk.
I have already seen your request. Unless you have a specific question, I'll post the information as my time permits and as I feel it's relevant. The info on the W & G trains was relevant to current or past idscussions.
1. I will no longer respond to posts that are addressed to me.
2. I will no longer respond to posts that are addressed to others.
If I have something to say in response to a post, I will say it, but not if the post is in memorandum format. I suggest that others do the same.
David
To: David
From: Jeff H.
Subject: Memoranda
Sounds like a good policy!
To: Jeff H.
From: BMTman
Subject: Your Attempt at Humor
Please contract heypaulitis as soon as possible!
BTW, rev up 1689 ASAP as she will be quite popular this weekend..
To: David
From: 1SF9
Re: Memorandum
Who are you?
The authors of memo-type (and off-topic) posts are immediately added to my "Killfile" list.
anyone watching from 161 river ave platform over center field. nypd no hassels
Train Dude,
Can you post the car assignment for the Northern B & D train, the N two Q trains & the W train for 2001.
Car assignments? There isn't even a service plan yet. Please cease with your annoying requests for unavailable information.
it is becoming increasing apparent, even to me, that there are many people here whose need for attention will drive them to inundate this message board with a plethora of imbecilic, infantile, and incontinent messages...
to counteract this insult to our intelligence, i propose that we eliminate all handles from the posts... instead we should assign a random number with at least 5 digits to identify each new post...
this will make it harder for the attention seekers to achieve gratification...
unfortunately this will not be enough to discourage people who adapt aberrant punctuation and writing styles which they hope will further identify them... to discourage these pests, i propose that all messages be scanned and then rewritten in standard english...
finally, to promote a healthy atmosphere, all posts must end with: "have a nice day"
I'M ALL FOR THAT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
(PS, this was not a post from Salaam allah)
If you were (both of you) would would have at least ended your post in "Have a nice day".
Have a nice day
-end transmission
* LEAVE MY NAME OUT OF THIS ( please ) Mr BMTman !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
you are on your own on this & I am not included good luck !!
http://photos.yahoo.com/asiaticcommunications
What happened to talking about subways, and els, and subways running on els? Did we all miss something? The overwhelming number of us on this Board not only appreciate learning more about them, but want to share and learn. There's no time for little egos proclaiming that they have big bruises. The people in most parts of Yugoslavia now hope that mass transit will be restored. They have real problems. Who on this Board, for example, has ridden the systems there that need to be restored, and how much railway work (not political consensus) is required? Let's get to real stuff again.
8885 is back home at East 180th Street, preparing for service as a Gel Car once again. Time to stop those leaves from causing wheel slippage on Dyre Av!
It was definitely her. I noticed her in the middle of a consist heading north last night. How many cars do you know that are dressed in yellow and black and have the new style windows?
Question about the R-30 Gel Car. Does 8429 get to operate as the lead unit? And what does that car usually couple to?
-Stef
The two R-30 gel cars (8558 is the other) are not operable as lead units. (8429 even had its headlight boxes removed) They are sandwiched betwen two R-32's on each end.
All three gel cars were in Coney Island Shop for the last month being prepared for the fall.
Interesting note about 8885, Minor damage to #2 bulkhead still evident. Also numberboard on #1 end, Cab side is from 8884 with a 5 sticker over the 4.
-Mark
The last time I was on 8429, it had no sealed beams, no duplex gauge, and a leaky conductors emergency valve....BUT, you could still charge up and take power from its the #1 end.
I can't wait for the slow order coming into Newkrik on the Brighton Manhatan bound like they had last year. Wet Leaves!!!
What is the function of a "GEL" car?
Peace,
ANDEE
A gel car applies traction gel to the running rails in roadbed areas that collect leaves from trees during the fall season. The leaves in turn cause trains (trying to make a station stop) to skid and overshoot the station by getting wedged between the train's wheel and the running rail.
The following lines have the gel applied on all operable tracks in foliage areas:
A: From north of Aqueduct Racetrack to Howard Beach
D/Q: From Prospect Park to Avenue H
N: From north of 8th Avenue to 86th Street
5: From south of Morris Park to Dyre Avenue
Other areas that experience foliage problems but are not on the list of areas to be served by the gel train are:
A: Portal south of Grant Avenue and Far Rockaway-2 track
B/M: From south of 36th Street(portal) to south of 9th Avenue
L: Wilson Avenue southbound, From New Lots Avenue to Rockaway Parkway
M: From Fresh Pond Road to Metropolitan Avenue
Thanks
Was this car ever in revenue service, or did it serve its whole life as being a gel car? It would be hard to imagine a non-revenue service car getting a plain number like 8885, with those tilt-in windows and the straps and air conditioning units still in place. And what happened to 8884?
Picture of 8885 (80k)
Another Picture of 8885 (87k)
Those are my pictures of 8885. She remains essentially intact while being used in work service. The only reason she's in that status is because her mate was wrecked.
8884 was wrecked in a derailment at President Street, July 15, 1997. Car was sent into a wall after a switch changed positions under it. She was banged up and I assumed she was scrapped on the spot. One of the posters here says it was taken to Livonia Yard with it side shaved so it could clear the platforms on the way. There is no other info on the car.
-Stef
According to the Press Realeases on the CTA Web site, they have gotten approval from the House & Senate for the full funding for the Brown & Blue Line Douglas Projects. The President only has to sign the bill to make it official. Read fully about it at yourcta.com, news, press releases.
This has taken such a long time and been such a hard battle. I remember when the Illinois First happened and I thought that was the end of the funding battle. The CTA has fought a long time for this money. The CTA will use the money to completely rebuild the Elevated Structure on the Douglas/Cermak Branch of the Blue Line. It is pretty much a slow zone the entire route after Kildare when the route Elevates roughly at Keeler St all the way until it joins with the main line at Racine.
It will also pay for the expansion on the Brown Line from 6 to 8 car accomodating platforms. Interestingly enough, Chicago-l.org has reported that both Fullerton & Belmont will be rebuilt completely with the Brown Line project money. This is nice because the Red & Purple lines also serve these stations which are 8 car accessible, and they are used heavily by the booming neighborhoods they are in. The stairways to the platforms at both are dirty and grungy looking. The platforms are old and have historic value, I will hate to see them go, but new, handicapped accessible stations are vital with such high ridership at both of these stations.
I am very happy to hear this news. I can't wait for next year when both of these projects will be happening at the same time. I would assume they will both start next year as the CTA has stated. They have the Douglas fully planned out. I believe they still may have a few details to work on, on the Brown Line, but I hope they don't wait to long with it. It will be amazing if both of these are happening at the same time. The CTA spending millions of Dollars on two seperate rail projects at the same time, has this ever happened before??
BJ
Yes, it will remain open, however, it doesn't currently operate on week-ends. They will be able to do any work that would require trains to stop or cutting the power during the week-ends when the line is shut down anyway.
The Communities that surround the line have strongly urged the CTA to restore week-end service on the line. There is a very good chance that after the renovation it will receive week-end service again. I don't think it will get the 24 hour service back, but probably similar to the current weekday schedule, 7 days a week.
It already operates at the work-zone speed of 15 mph on most streches, so they will just have to slow trains down to 6 mph when workers are on the tracks during the project.
It will be interesting to see what, "architectural aspects" are added to the reconstructed stations. They claim they won't be built like the Green line renovated standard stations. They will actually have some appeal to the eye, not look like prison cells. We can only hope this will really be true. The Green Line is ok, but please, nothing like the Orange Line Stations.
BJ
The stations shouldn't be rebuilt in the first place! They're fine the way they are now. As for the 24-hour service, I think it should be restored too; it's not like the Congress gets used a lot at night, so if it's headways are increased, it won't be a big deal.
I hope you realize that both of these programs are a mistake. First, on the Douglas branch, I have never seen any assesments that say that trains must operate that slow, OR that the whole structure has to be replaced. I don't think the CTA has considered just installing new footings and repainting the steel. I'd like to see a real assesment on that lines. Also, the ridership does NOT justify spending $400 MILLION on that line!!!!! The structure is one thing, but none of the stations need to be replaced; just some minor cleanup and repainting is all that is needed.
As for the Ravenswood, the major problem is NOT the car length, it's signalling problems that cause trains to be delayed and therefore become packed to the brim once they pull into a station. The major choke point is the automated Tower 12 in the Loop, which takes forever to process line-ups for the many lines that go through it. If the CTA fixed the signalling, they could definately add more trains to the line. I've seen reports that the CTA actually plans to DECREASE the number of runs after the platforms are extended to 8 cars. What a stupid project!
All of the Ravenswood stations are in good condition and just need some TLC. Belmont and Fullerton could use wider stairways, but they don't need to be completely rebuilt, in my opinion. How many times have you seen a person in a wheelchair board a CTA train? I can count the number of times I've seen one on one hand, in my 6 years of extensive riding of the CTA. The ADA compliance factor is a load of crap.
[I can count the number of times I've seen one on one hand, in my 6 years of extensive riding of the CTA. The ADA compliance factor is a load of crap.]
Sorry if I'm getting a little off topic, butŠ
Has anyone ever heard of a profesor named Peter Singer. If you have, I would have to agree with him. Thats because we can spend BILLIONS of dollars to make our facilities ADA compliant, but the lives of disabled people are still as crappy as they were before. I've never seen a person in a wheelchair get on a rail vehicle, and have only seen a wheelchair lift used in a bus twice.
Also, has anybody heard of a presidential candidate named George W. Bush? And does anybody know that he is *against* stem cell research? And does anyone know what kind of diseases stem cell research can cure? And does anyone know how much more money would be available for projects such as the 2nd Avenue Subway if people with debilitating diseases that are presently eating up government funding were cured, could work, and did not have to receive government funding?
You've gone around a very broad circle to make an unrelated political point. The fact is that ADA requires accommodations be made ONLY where the cost of those accommodations are reasonable. As a person with a brother who has cerebral palsey, I privately support funding to make public & private establishments wheelchair accessible. In NYC, the MTA provides para-transit as an alternative. This suits my brother's needs. Elevators and escalators may be impractical or financially unrealistic in some coses. However, ADA compliance can also include braile signs or PA announcements that are visible as well as audible.
Now as I understand Stem Cell research, the primary benifit would be in the area of cancer cures. Since I know of no family that cancer has not touched, I think that this research should also be vigorously pursued. However, I don't understand your posting that makes the two mutually exclusive. Am I misunderstanding you?
Christopher Reeve is pushing for stem cell research because it might be useful in ameliorating spinal cord injuries. Stem cells are biologically primitive cells that have not yet differentiated into nerve, kidney, liver, skin, etc cells. Research might lead to ways to use them in treatment of many diseases and injury cases. The first stem cells were derived from aborted embryos, so there are political issues that have set research back 15 (or so) years (and counting).
Research into using stem cells to make nerve cells could help in treatment of spinal cord injury, MS, cerebral palsy, and other brain and nerve problems.
I don't want to start a fight with anybody, but the Douglas Branch deserves every penny of the $400 million it is getting for the renovation.
It was built almost 105 years ago!! How many structures from 105 years ago are still in use today?!?! It does need to be completely rebuilt for safety standards from the ground up. The Stations are very old, and dingy, and if they work with architects on them like promised, they may actually turn out ok. Right now they are poor excuses for a modern rail system, except for Cicero, 18th & Polk, all replaced in the 1970's or 80's. Cicero is cool, no columns in the platform. The Green Line after renovation can now handle a train twice the weight of any CTA train. The Diesel cranes probably are forbidden from entering the Douglas branch right now since they weigh so much. The could potentially do 55mph+ on the Green Line Structure, if they were regular rail cars.
I agree that Brown Line service could be worked out better with other things then expanding the station platform lenghts and trains. Although, I enjoy longer trains, especially when they zoom out of a station past you. Wellington and every other station with such narrow platforms are very poor though, and could use to atleast be widened out. The cage-fence entrance at Welllington is very nice though!
I personally think the renovation is great and very necessary. It will be a big step towards modernizing the CTA system. Maybe we could get speeds over 55 mph one day in the future?!?! The only really crappy, old stations that will be left after these projects are the Red Line North Side Stations and a few Purple also.
BJ
PS: Toured the New Morgan Street Entrance to UIC-Halsted friday, it is very nice. Handicapped acccessible with a new sloping ramp and accessible gate. The Street-level station house is very nice though, shiny metal Agent's both opposite the turnstiles. The CTA still is backwards though, I saw an A,B skip stop "rapid Transit" map on the platfrom at UIC-Halsted. Really nice to confuse new riders!!
The Green Line is still running on a structure that is 112 years old. The only thing replaced during the rehab were all of the footings. The structure was adjusted in a few places to allow for straighter curves, but besides that, the structure is the same as it was 112 years ago. And, appearently, the Douglas is in the same condition that the Green Line was in when it was shut down for renovation. So I don't see how they can justify spening $400 goddamn dollars on a line that doesen't have all that much ridership in the first place. Other alternatives, such as more local service on the paralleling BNSF railroad, which runs through more residential parts of the west side have not been considered. The Green Line daily ridership is still not anywhere near the pre-renovation levels, so don't believe that the CTA can't make half-assed decisions.
And cut the crap about the stations. I've been to every single one of them, and they are all architectrually interesting and in very good condition, considering their age. They are not dingy at all. The new stations that the CTA builds and has built in the past are extremely ugly and a waste of money. I almost never see anyone use the elevators that the CTA appearently considers so important.
Do you live in Chicago? Do you ride the "L" every day, like I do? Just wanted to know.
BTW, visit and learn a little more about the history of those "dingy" "L" stations, and maybe you'll appriciate them a little more.
112 years? 2000 - 112 = 1888 if my math is correct. In 1888, Chicago was in in the midst of its cable car era. (Chicago enjoyed the largest cable car system in the country). The first "L", the "Alley "L" on the South Side) was built in time for the Columbian Exposition in 1893.
I was off by 4 years.. it's still very old.
Jake, I agree that the CTA has made a lot of mistakes. Maybe the plans for the Douglas Branch of the Blue Line do constitute overkill. (I think you're right about the stations.) But the service is a lifeline for the neighborhoods along its route. The population of many of these communities (including Pilsen, Little Village, and the Town of Cicero) is increasing. The Burlington Northern Metra Line is already operating at capacity, so increasing local service isn't really a viable alternative. In the long run, ridership along the Douglas Branch should increase enough to warrant at least the structural overhaul that the line obviously needs.
Concerning the Green Line, it's true that ridership is still low in contrast to the pre-rehab numbers. But some of the areas served by this line, especially south of the Loop are beginning to experience an economic turnaround. So the Green Line project was considered an investment in the future.
The fact is that most residents of Pilsen and Little Village ride the bus, because it's more convienient. Most people live closer to 26th street than the Douglas...
And yes, if the minimum structural improvements are done to remove the slow zones and allow the structure to last for another 50 years, that's fine. The plan is just way overkill.
The worst mistake in CTA history is the cutting off of the 63rd Street "L" east of Cottage Grove. If it still ran all the way to Stony Island, the south branch of the Green Line would already be back to post-shutdown numbers. This was the single busiest transfer point from buses on the south side. In my opinion, it should be re-extended to Stony Island, and a huge bus transfer station should be built there.
Please bring me up to date on 63rd Street. Have they torn down the bridge over the IC tracks? It had been condemned, from what I hear. The CTA is making a huge mistake in cutting back on its rapid transit services.
One day someone will write a book about Chicago-style politics and the book will be about the east 63rd St "L". The bridge over the old Illinois Central was closed in 1982. The CTA and the city met with the community including the Woodlawn Organization (TWO) and service was put in place as far as University AV.
With Federal money the city built a 1000 foot extension to the "L" and included an intermodal station next to the Metra Electric at Dorchester for $14 -16 million. Federal money also built new stations at King Drive and Cottage Grove.
Then came the Green Line rehab, east 63rd's $31 million total tab was absorbed. Completion of the rehab was getting close when some community residents noticed no work was being conducted east of Cottage Grove. The news broke that Cottage Grove was to be the end of the line.
Both the Feds and the State denied support to dismantle the "L" east of Cottage Grove and both demanded to be recompensated fully. In the same month the city and the CTA celebrated the 100th anniversary of the Loop "L", the city demolished east 63rd. The steel in the unused 1000 feet of new structure was salvaged and today still is stacked next to the 61st street yard.
I think I've told this controversial story fairly, without mentioning personalities and rumors about people and institutions behind the scenes. Wouldn't make a good movie, but it would be a good book. I called it "The 30 Year Chess Gasme."
David Harrison
Oops! Thats "30 Year Chess Game."
David Harrison
Seems like my last message was redundant. I defer to David Harrison.
True. The CTA bridge over the IC tracks at 63rd Street was condemned well over a decade ago. Service was cut back to University Avenue, the first station west of the bridge. About five years ago, the easternmost mile of the Jackson Park Branch, between Cottage Grove and Stony Island was dismantled.
Just another ill-advised decision by those supposedly in charge of the CTA. So what else is new?
You could call it Chicago's version of the Jamaica line fiasco.
Hey Jake--
The CTA is a government agency, so of course they are going to waste money.
Personally, I like some of the new stations, maybe because I'm young!! Addison St. Red Line is very cool, especially with the CUBS paintings. My favorite Station is probably the new Library, State & Van Buren. It is modeled like a European Rail Station, very cool. When any major work is done on a line or stations, they have to make so many of them handicapped accessible, federal law!! I personally thing Howard is a very poor excuse for a station with the massive transfer point it is. I was happy to see it will be reconstructed between 2002-2005. According to the latest CTA 2001 budget release.
I live in Westmont and totally disagree about the BNSF comment. It needs more express trains towards the outer end of the line. It is running near or at capacity now. The Express Service from Downers Grove Main St. is great. I use it all of the time. The new saturday express train is, hopefully, the start of 7 day a week express service.
The two main concerns I have is speed of trains and ridership levels. People are attracted to clean & new stations. The CTA does a very crappy job of cleaning old stations. The Subway cleaning massive project they did didn't do much. The Blue Line looks like it had no work done at all. The Red is also very dirty again. New stations like State/Van Buren have a clean loook to them and will remain that way for a long time. You can't honestly say you like the old Chicago Avenue/State Station compared to what the new one is shaping up to be. The Speed of the Douglas line will only improve if the massive, waste of money, overhaul is done, so let it begin ASAP. Half of the fun of riding the L is the speed. When a train is going full blast at 55-58 mph and it shakes all around, what a thrill!
I try to ride the CTA atleast one day a week. I go to COD and have a 3 hour break between my classes. I also get out very early some days. I usually drive to Harlem/Lake, Forest Park, or 54th/Cermak and take a ride to downtown. If I have more time, then I transfer downtown and go on a another line.
I also love the city. Me and my friends go downtown all of the time. I usually make sure we get to ride the L, even if it isn't too far, like just to WaterTower. I am forced to live with my parents now going to COD and all. In 2 years though, when I transfer, me and my friends want to get into UIC and get an apartment on the North-Side of Chicago. It won't be easy, but I've had to live in desolate Westmont for the 1st 18, will be 20, years of my life. That needs to change.
BJ
PS: My Grandparents lived on Belmont Street with my mother when they first got married for only 2 years before moving back to Cicero. I am very excited that I will probably live near Belmont or on it in only a couple years, a couple miles east of where they lived!
The CTA spending millions of Dollars on two seperate rail projects at the same time, has this ever happened before??
Yes, around the late 1960s. The Dan Ryan expressway median line (now the south half of the Red Line) and the Kennedy expressway median line (Blue Line from Logan Square to Jefferson Park) were both constructed in the late 1960s. The Dan Ryan line opened in the fall of 1969 (October?) and the Jefferson Park extension opened a few months later (February, 1970, I beleive).
-- Ed Sachs
I hear this weekend during the day, the F train will not be running south of Kings Highway.
What are they doing there?
- Lyle Goldman
> I hear this weekend during the day, the F train will not be running south of Kings Highway.
> What are they doing there?
Doesn't anybody have any idea?
This is the second time you've repeated your messages.
If nobody answers, nobody has the answer.
10/13/2000
[> I hear this weekend during the day, the F train will not be running south of Kings Highway.
> What are they doing there?
Doesn't anybody have any idea? ]
I don't ! But I'm willing to bet if there is no service south of Kings Hwy.not even a shuttle, maybe switch replacement is in the offing. Either that or track work.
Bill "Newkirk"
Some kind of work at the bottom of the structure at W. 8th St.
I've heard a lot of talk about the PA selling operations and if the PATH was sold to the MTA (hypothectically speaking). If the happened, are the PATH and NYC subway lines/trains compatable with each other in any way. Would a merger make sense from a logistics point of view?
What I have read is that PATH trains could operate on the subway, but with a slight catch: they are the width of IRT trains, but have their stop arms (for the trippers at signals) on the left side of the train (looking forward from the T/O's position) like IND/BMT trains. Therefore, they would need to be fitted either with right-side stop arms (to run on the IRT) or with extension plates (to run on the IND/BMT). Perhaps they could run on the IRT behind a regular IRT car as the lead car - though I have no idea if the couplers are compatible.
However, NYCT subway cars cannot run on the PATH, due to the tight clearances and sharp curves in the "tubes". PATH cars are "shorter" than IRT cars in both senses: less long and less tall.
10/07/2000
[However, NYCT subway cars cannot run on the PATH, due to the tight clearances and sharp curves in the "tubes". PATH cars are "shorter" than IRT cars in both senses: less long and less tall.]
If the TA's IRT cars are 9 feet wide/51 feet long, wasn't the Class K cars of same dimensions ?
Bill "Newkirk"
They're the same size as IRT cars, but H&M/PATH cars are
designed to negotiate tighter radius curves in terms of
couplers, length of motor leads and air piping, etc.
PATH cars can run effectively on the Boston Blue Line if they get pantographs added, and conversely, Blue Line cars can run on the PATH if they get the pantographs removed, since the cars are very similar on the outside. The Blue Line also uses both right and left side trippers, the only system I have seen that has that.
If they knocked down the walls, I believe the F and PATH would have comon island platforms at 14th Street.
:)Andrew
No, I just looked at that. The PATH platform's north end is adjacent to the F fare control area at the south end, so where one ends, the other begins.
* The most defenseless vunerable unimportant neglected hardest working lowest paid & least cared about working poor continue to suffer downhill pain & sufering as the almighty god the L.A.- M.T.A. inflicts untold misery along with this absolutely "STEATH MAYOR" his dishonor the disgraceful dodo do nothing richard-riordan & his crooks, The crimminaly insane M.T.A. board trying to force the transit workers back into the stone age wages just because foothill transit employs & pays at a downhill rate & with no union protection whatsoever ??!!! What kind of bullshit is that ??
Finally i do not blame them for holding on to what they have got!!
The other transit systems like ""FOOTHILL TRANSIT"" needs to go to hell where they were created from! Now the county workers are going on strike, HELL LOS ANGELES IS SHUTTING DOWN ??...bosinia?? hmmmm...
http://photos.yahoo.com/asiaticcommunications
I can't be the only one noticing that "plethora" had been popping up in different posts yesterday (Oops! now today as well).
What gives? Is there some new diease out there causing SubTalkers to use this rarely use word? Hmmmm....
I use this word often, ever since I saw Dr. McCoy use it in the Star Trek Nintendo game do describe a bunch of coins in a sewer grate.
I vote for conundrum as the next word
Peace,
ANDEE
I thought you might...:-)
Doug-
I hope you haven't begun a plethora of off-topic vocabulary posts.
Bob
LOL!
Why, it's becoming ubiquitous!
I dimly recall a bit of dialogue from the Burns and Allen TV series, circa 1955. The fussy neighbor (played by Larry Keating?) comments that there is a plethora of something or other; George replies, "Yeah, maybe even a plethora and a half."
Alan Follett
Hercules, CA
To clarify the previous post regarding the assignment of cars for the G service, I'll post the 4 options. Again nothing has been decided.
Option one - 6-Car R-46s from Jamaica Yard
Option two - 8-car R-32s from Coney Island Yard
Option Three - 4-car R-68s from Coney Island
Option four - Same as option one
According to the plan, option three would result in changes to the D or W fleet assignments.
In option four the G assignment is the same as in option one. However, this plan also covers N, Q, R and V assignments and not just the G.
Why does option 4 exist if it is the same as option 1. Was this determined by the TA's department of redundacy department? 8-)
Peace,
ANDEE
Obviously I didn't explain it clearly but the plan does not only cover the G line so while option 1 ands 4 may be the same for the G line, plans 1 & 4 are decidedly different for the N, Q, R and V lines.
If option three was selected, I wonder if there will be any danger of overcrowding.
Have 6-car G trains gotten to any level of overcrowding at any time during the day?
The trade off is seven 6-car trains or eleven 4-car trains, hence, capacity would be fairly equal.
Most likely the 4 car trains would be used 24 hours( did somebody say OPTO?)
As far as overcrowding, it won't be a problem on the G. There may be fewer if any seats available during the rush, but it will not get to jam packed proportions barring any extensive service delays. The only reason that they run 6 cars now is for Queens Blvd. service.
Only on the Queens Blvd. line, and when schools let out. Weekends and Friday evenings they do fine with 4 cars.
BTW: I recently noticed that the Friday evening 4 car Gs that run to 71/Continental have a conductor in the rear cab. At what point do they decide to ditch the C/R and go OPTO?
OPTO starts on the midnite tour just after midnite Saturday morning. Friday nites you have the daily PM conductors working and they finsih when the midnite guys come in. They don't go OPTO Friday evening because not all those T/O's are OPTO qualified and no sense having the conductors sitting around since most of them start their work day when the PM rush commences.
how do the plans efewct the other lines
will the r42's take over the redbirds when the reds leave on all the lines, besides the 2,5, and 6?
and can anyone give me a quick update on the R142's testings??
R42's cannot run in the IRT. They are used in BMT service only.
I think he meant R142. It was a typo.
How does the horsepower on a 10-car train of Redbirds add up? Is it 40 axles x (? hp) per axle = ?
In similar fashion, how does the horsepower on a 10-car R-142 train add up? Are there unpowered axles? Thanks.
Every car of the NYCT from R-26 to R-68A has 4 traction motors - each rated at 115 HP or 460 HP per car. R-110A cars have four 3 Phase 150 HP traction motors on the A cars only. R-110B have four 202 HP 3 Phase motors on the A cars only.
How do they safely fit all of those horses down into the tunnels?
You see, this is why stupid units like horsepower should be abandoned in favor of watts.
From heypaul I'd expect that question but from you I'd expect better :)
What about torque? Since that is the force that actually moves the train.
Thanks for the replies, which told me the horsepower of the trains up through the R-68 (460 per car, = 4600 per 10-car train). However, I still don't know the horsepower of the R-142 10-car trains because I don't know how many axles are powered. Thanks.
Train Dude,
I would like to know on what car assignment are being proposed for the D,N,Q,R,V & W lines for 2001.
Please post information on subtalk.
If you want to have your questions promptly answered, I strongly suggest that you do not address a particular person in your opening thread. Most personalized threads are going to be ignored by the person you are asking.
Follo,
We would all like you to stop it. Really.
Don't post any more repetitive questions on SubTalk.
Mark
the answer should be in the archives soon under the title" r110, r142,r143, rl60, the juice" or will be named something like that.
Dearest Follo: Since you always start new posts with the name of another poster here, I get the impression that you do not scan the rest of the topics to see if you questions were asked by others and answered by others. And you have the most annoying habit of asking the same question repetively every few hours like a whining 3 year old brat. Why don't you post an E mail address? I understand! At this point, since you are starting to drive me and others nuts, you may get some unkind E Mails! You seem to want minutes of meetings with every single proposal of subway & bus assignments listed for your benefit. We talk about too much hypothetical stuff on this board as it is! I suggest you take a TA test, get in the door, take promotions and become a TA bureaucrat to satisfy your appetite! BTW we had another obnoxious poster some time ago: James S. Li who was just as obnoxious. Are you guys the same person? Regards, Bill from Maspeth (was Bill from Greenpoint before Al Gore invented the Internet). P.S.: Please don't respond by starting a new thread beginning with "Bill from Maspeth". Thank you sooooooo much!
I believe that it is now the time to add Follo to our killfiles. He is another in line of "obnoxious posters" who refuse to take hints.
He is being added to my killfile tonight.
Did you see the cartoon in the Voice, where Al Gore as a kid has a time machine is his basement, and while He's inventing the internet and teaching the secrets of fire to the cro-magnons, his mom steps out of the future, 1974, and teaches his the "Union Label" song?
Time machines are the perfect excuse for all political mis-speaking!
follo can always get an email address for railfan questions and answers. He can always ignore the messages that aren't from Train Dude.
Below is the article about NYCT and Larry Reuter from the current Mass Transit Magazine (www.masstransitmag.com). It discusses the Lenox Rehab, Franklin Rehab, Metrocards and Capital Programs in depth. It is also very, very long...
-Harry
--------------------------
The Big Apple's new MTA NYCT
by Jim Duffy
Sept/Oct 2000
MTA New York City Transit is enjoying an unprecedented renaissance. This year, ridership has surpassed 7 million passengers a day on a rejuvenated 6,000-car subway system and 4,400-bus fleet that is fast becoming the cleanest in the world.
In New York City earlier this summer, 89 people were injured in a subway derailment. Every major news network covered the story, so it won't be rehashed here. Most extraordinary about the derailment was that the incident, indeed, was out of the ordinary. Quite a contrast from 20 years earlier.
In the 1970s, subway derailments in New York City averaged one every 18 days. Subway fires were even more common with about three a week. Crime on the city's subway system had gained worldwide attention. Like a precursor to the apocalypse, MTA NYCT was living a nightmare. So were the people working for and using the system.
By the late 1970s, everybody at NYCT was convinced the subway system was on the verge of total collapse. State and city officials recognized that drastic measures were needed to rebuild this vital resource for the city of New York. The health and economic vitality of the city depended on it.
Dick Ravitch took over the reins at MTA in 1979. He was a wealthy businessman with no transit experience. During the next four years he served as chairman, without pay, and he put together a program that ultimately saved the subway system and, indeed, the entire transportation system in New York City. His greatest accomplishment - creating a mechanism for massive capital funding - has stood the test of time, surviving several administrations in the city of New York and at the state capital in Albany.
Ravitch and the MTA sought and obtained state approval for a five-year capital program to rebuild the subway system. More importantly, he convinced state legislators that the initial infusion of cash would only be the beginning of a long and sustained effort; legislators should prepare themselves and their constituents for future, ongoing capital requests.
MTA NYCT turns the corner
Larry Reuter, now president of New York City Transit (NYCT), remembers the time prior to capital funding. "When people asked me where I worked, I would mumble something they couldn't hear. In those days we were in the headlines of every paper."
As part of the management team during the 1980s, Reuter helped put together the first capital plan. In 1990, he left New York to run the Santa Clara Valley Transportation Authority in San Jose and later, the Washington, D.C. Metropolitan Area Transit Authority. When he returned to NYCT as president in 1996, he found an organization on the upswing.
"We're pretty proud to say where we work now. Next week we'll be reporting to the board that on-time performance is a little over 95 percent on the subway, a record we haven't achieved in decades."
While the subway system is enjoying increased ridership, NYCT's bus fleet is experiencing unprecedented growth as well. "When I left here in the 1980s, we were predicting the bus fleet would be reduced to 3,200 buses," says Reuter. "When I came back here in 1996, it was still at 3,400. The bus fleet now is at 4,400 buses. The bus fleet is experiencing an absolute turnaround. It's pretty big growth, pretty dynamic right now."
Along with massive capital programs, several other factors have played a significant role in the revitalization at NYCT. One is a strong economy that has allowed the funding dollars to flow without significant political pain. Another is an activist city administration and police department determined to route out crime on the subways. Since the 1980s, subway crime has dropped 50 percent. The main reason: NYPD now cracks down on people who evade paying fares.
"When the police run background checks on these fare evaders, they find out a lot of them are criminals," says Reuter. "Some of these people have lengthy records and now the police are able to lock them up and put them away. We used to say we lost 3 percent of revenue, or $70 million annually to fare evasion. The last numbers I saw, that figure is down to about 0.43 percent."
On a wider scale, the New York Police Department (NYPD) started arresting graffiti artists and other petty criminals. At the same time, capital improvements brought new lighting systems to once darkened stations. As a result of these efforts, criminals moved out of the subways as more fare-paying riders moved in.
Then came MetroCard. No single factor has had a bigger impact in growing NYCT ridership in recent years. For the first time in history, NYCT passengers can now receive discounts, passes and, most importantly, free transfers between subway and buses. No longer needing to fumble through pockets and purses for subway tokens, riders can move quickly and conveniently through turnstiles and onto buses with the mere swipe of a card.
NYCT renaissance 2000
These improvements didn't come easily, or at little expense. MTA NYCT has dedicated roughly $24 billion in city, state and federal capital funds as of January 2000. By the end of 2004, that figure will rise to $34 billion. As a result, NYCT can now boast that all its cars, buses and tracks, as well as 60 percent of the infrastructure, are in a state of good repair.
From 1982 to 1999, NYCT purchased 1,775 subway cars and 5,149 new buses; overhauled 4,870 subway cars and 350 buses; restored 530 miles of track; built the 63rd Street connector tunnel that will open next year; and is constructing a new state-of-the-art rail control center to be completed in 2003.
Additionally, 16 bus depots were built or rebuilt. Nine rail car maintenance shops were rehabilitated, as were two car-overhaul shops.
Refurbished were 110 subway stations. New tunnel lighting was installed throughout 252 miles of tunnel. Signals were replaced across 446 track miles, with 56 more under construction.
The Archer Avenue and 63rd Street extensions opened, each with three new stations. Many other projects, major and minor, were completed or initiated between 1982 and 1999.
The pace of rebuilding and new construction continues today. Currently there are about 100 major construction projects underway, and a thousand smaller projects going at any one time.
Presiding over this new golden age is MTA chairman E. Virgil Conway, who is overseeing the first major expansion of mass transit service since the 1940s. Chairman Conway is determined to advance the system on all fronts. To that end he hired Larry Reuter as president who now oversees an operating budget of about $4 billion, bigger than the budgets of many U.S. cities and even a few small countries. Add to that an annual capital budget of more than $2 billion. By any measure, it's huge.
MTA employs about 65,000 people; of those, 46,000 work for Reuter at NYCT. "NYCT operates the entire subway system, almost 6,000 revenue subway cars running through 30 subway lines," says Reuter. "Plus we run the entire bus system in New York City, which right now is about 4,400 buses. We carry about 7 million people a day. We truly keep the city rolling."
Portions of the city's transit system under the MTA, but not under Reuter's control are: Metro-North Railroad, Long Island Railroad, Long Island Bus and Bridges and Tunnels. Those systems are separate from NYCT, which is by far the largest organization inside the MTA.
Returning to NYCT in 1996, Reuter made an immediate impact. He negotiated two major strike-averting agreements with the Transport Workers Union (TWU) in 1996 and 1999. He has presided over the planning, design and initial implementation of the computerization of the subway system, the first major change in New York City subway operations since 1904 when the system first opened. Additionally, Reuter and his team managed the single largest purchase of new technology subway cars in history: 1,080 new cars built by Bombardier and Kawasaki worth $1.4 billion.
Perhaps Reuter's finest accomplishment to date has been the successful implementation of a sophisticated $700-million Automated Fare Collection (AFC) system. In New York, it's known simply as MetroCard.
MetroCard
MetroCard Gold debuted July 4, 1997. Overnight, millions of New York City transit riders could transfer free from subway to bus, bus to subway, and bus to bus.
"The availability of MetroCards at the beginning for a system that's carrying 7 million people a day was a big issue for us," says Reuter. "The system had to, all-of-a-sudden, take all these transactions. It was a huge, huge undertaking."
While automatic turnstiles had been installed incrementally since 1992, and MetroCard was accepted on buses as early as 1995, MetroCard Gold was a different animal. It was the culmination of years of preparation for a one-fare system across the entire NYCT operation.
The new fare structure required the development of complex scheduling and charting to determine allowable transfers. For example, riders couldn't be allowed to "round trip," or ride downtown and back for free. But other transfers were allowable.
"To put a system in that accomplishes all that, on all of the 3,600 buses that we had at the time, that was a great success," says Reuter. "It went in with almost no glitches. That's when the thing turned and everybody, even the critics, started saying, 'Heh, this card is kind of nice.'
"When we first started putting the system in, this was probably one of the most criticized things we had ever done. It was in the papers constantly, about this big boondoggle the MTA is doing. They saw all these turnstiles and MetroCards and they said nobody's using it and that it doesn't work.
"I was the one going to all the board meetings, defending the system, telling people to give us time and not to worry about what the penetration is or how many people are using it. People couldn't understand it at the time, but the full benefits of the system wouldn't be realized until the whole system was installed at all the turnstiles. Until people could use the card to get on in the morning, use it during the day, and use it to get home again at night, people weren't going to use the card."
Now over 80 percent, or 5.6 million riders daily, use the card. Recently it was chosen as one of the hundred most popular items in the city of New York. NYCT has made MetroCard a household word.
In 1998, NYCT introduced Unlimited-Ride, seven-day and 30-day MetroCards so customers can take as many trips as they want for a fixed price.
While MetroCard became totally operational through the fare gates about three years ago, vending machines allowing customers to make additional purchases to their cards through rechargeable magnetic strips, like the kind on the back of charge cards, are still being installed. To date about 1,000 of the 2,500 machines are in. But that hasn't slowed the rapid increase in ridership, which is at an all time high.
Everyone at NYCT attributes the stunning success of MetroCard to its flexibility and convenience. Riders no longer have to fumble through their pockets for tokens. And now customers can actually ride the entire city for the standard $1.50 fare. Ridership gains have more than offset the discounts offered to riders.
Cubic Transportation Systems, Inc., San Diego, developed the MetroCard system, including barrier-type turnstiles that discourage fare evaders, and MetroCard vending machines. Cards are swiped at the turnstiles for high passenger throughput and fit into a printer box on buses.
MetroCard forces bus fleet to expand
Before MetroCard gained widespread acceptance, NYCT was actually scaling back the bus fleet due to decreasing ridership.
"When I first came here in the 1980s, there were 4,200 buses," says Reuter. "By 1986, we set 3,200 buses as where we saw it ultimately coming down to. It was going to take us 10 to 15 years to scale back. In 1996, we had cut back to about 3,400 buses. So we were almost there. Then MetroCard went in and, all of a sudden, wiped the slate clean. Twenty years worth of history is gone."
Ridership increases were so rapid that NYCT had to ramp up the fleet almost overnight. "We started seeing double digit ridership increases," says Reuter. "If you had looked at the bus ridership numbers on a graph prior, it looked like a downhill ski slope. Now it's the other way, an uphill slope. The bus fleet has had more percentage increase in ridership than the subway."
MetroCard's popularity has been extended by MTA to include other regional bus operations and commuter railroads.
"MetroCard is truly becoming the regional fare card in this area," says Reuter. "Many commuter rail passengers come into the city and transfer to the subway. So we worked out a deal with the railroads for a joint ticket. Now you can buy a monthly pass on the railroad and put it right on the back of the MetroCard.
"More and more organizations are asking how they can become a part of MetroCard. Ultimately we can see it becoming a great regional card for all of the different properties."
Even private bus companies in New York City have signed on. More than 1,200 private buses, franchised by the City of New York, carry the same fareboxes as NYCT buses. Green Bus, New York Bus and others provide their customers with MetroCard and offer free transfers to and from NYCT buses.
"MetroCard allowed us to do things we had never done in New York," says Reuter. "Like discounts. And passes. We couldn't do those things before with tokens."
The biggest problem for NYCT officials now is predicting ridership patterns to accommodate future growth and expansion of the system. "We're now having to predict something we never had to predict before," says Reuter. "Our customers never, ever had free transfers or discounted fares before, so it's all new to them, and to us. There's still a lot of crystal-balling in this. We have just had to tell people to bear with us until we can get a little smarter."
Currently, more than 82 percent of NYCT riders use MetroCard with less than 1,000 recharging vending machines in operation. By the end of 2000, a total of 2,594 ticketing machines will be installed throughout the New York transit system.
"Once those vending machines are installed, it becomes even easier for customers," says Reuter. "When customers come up to our token booth they still have to pay cash. With the machines they can use their credit cards or debit cards, as well as cash. Once that happens, I think you'll see that 82 percent go up to almost 100 percent."
"When I first got here, we were getting beat up by the board, the press and everybody else. They thought MetroCard was a big failure. Now all we hear is that MetroCard is the greatest thing since sliced bread. The reason is, it's now system-wide and makes sense for people to use it."
Managing growth with five-year capital programs
Now in its fifth five-year capital program - the largest in the city's history - MTA and NYCT have turned the corner from the long process of rebuilding the infrastructure to envisioning and constructing new subway lines and transit facilities.
The new five-year program runs through 2004 and includes capital spending of $17.5 billion, of which NYCT receives about $13.5 billion. Reuter says it will include the first and largest building of the subway system since the 1930s.
"We're for the first time going to be building the 2nd Avenue subway. We're going to be building a subway extension to LaGuardia Airport. We're going to be planning construction to build an extension to the Javits Center on the 7 line."
When complete, the 63rd Street Tunnel will connect the E and F lines in Queens through the tunnel into Manhattan. With a price tag of $635 million, the new connector will help alleviate subway traffic on the most heavily used subway lines: Lexington Avenue, E and F lines, which are currently running well beyond capacity. The connector will allow an additional 15 trains per hour. Scheduled to open in September 2001, the 63rd Street Tunnel represents the second largest public works project in New York state history. By opening day, the project will have taken five years: three years to dig and two years to outfit and finish.
Reuter says some of the biggest building projects since the 1930s are going to be started under the next capital program. "You're going to see a 2nd Avenue subway starting to be built. It will parallel the Lex Line to help us unload some of the congestion."
Construction will be helped along by three sections that are already dug. Says Reuter, "The 2nd Avenue subway and tunnel were conceived back in the 1950s and 1960s and actually started in the late 1960s. Then they ran out of money and the city and state suffered a period of financial problems."
One can only imagine what it will be like to build a brand new subway in downtown Manhattan in the 2000s. With all the skyscrapers to burrow under, some fairly deep tunnel sections will be required throughout Manhattan. Most of the island is rock, according to Reuter, which is actually good for building subways. "But you don't want the stations too deep because then you have these very long elevators or escalators to get people down there. So what we will probably end up with is fairly deep tunnel sections, then the train will come up to stations that aren't so deep. The stations will probably be built cut and cover. Those decisions haven't been made yet, but those are the types of engineering decisions that have to be made on a project like this as we go through the environmental process."
What will they do with all that excavated rock? NYCT vice president of communications Albert O'Leary offers a precedent. He notes that rock excavated during the original digging of the subway lines was used to build Manhattan College. "They used it as a quarry operation."
People familiar with Manhattan's crowded, narrow streets wonder how all that rock will find its way out of the city of Manhattan. The transport operation, in and of itself, will require sophisticated logistics and managerial nerves of steel.
Politics and 20-year plans
When asked about the viability of future five-year capital programs, Reuter explains how NYCT keeps city and state legislators in the vision loop. "Even though we do a five-year capital program, we're showing (in the plan documents) what the system's needs will be over the next 20 years. That way, everybody knows we'll be back in five years. The very first capital program didn't do that; it was all persuasion and personalities. But after that, the 20-year plan was believed to be the best way to keep perpetuating the program. Now when we go to Albany, one of the first questions we are asked is, 'What are your 20-year needs?' It's a key document. On the political side, it truly lays out the issue that this is a long-term program and that the next five years is only the next bite."
Along with the 20-year plan, transit funding in the state of New York really gained a strong foothold when legislators started tying the highway and transportation programs together. "That's how you build a coalition," says Reuter. "As long as the two programs are basically balanced, the support is there. The upstaters get downstate support for their highway program, and we get upstaters support for transportation. It's like any political process; it's about building consensus and coalitions."
Each five-year program thus far has incorporated different funding mechanisms. For example, a $3.8 billion transportation bond issue will go out to support the program this year. The bond issue will be half highway and half transportation.
"I can tell you from going to Albany and talking and lobbying, transportation and highway are tied very closely together," says Reuter. "Same is true on the federal level. We wouldn't be able to get a federal transit program without a federal highway program. It's all about balancing resources."
The master builder
With massive money coming in for capital programs, Reuter depends heavily on Mysore Nagaraja, vice president of new construction. As at other transit agencies across the country, construction has traditionally been a separate group from operations, with all the division that implies. Yet, in spite of the roughly 100 major construction jobs underway at any one time, Nagaraja has managed to forge a strong working relationship with the operating units at NYCT. That kind of teamwork between didn't necessarily exist in the 1980s.
"He's done a wonderful job of pushing those types of working relationships together," says Reuter. "It speaks well of his capabilities because engineers often just want to go out and do their engineering and design and construction management stuff and don't always care that much how it impacts the operation of the railroad. The operating people, on the other hand, care a lot more about operations than the construction management stuff. Nagaraja has been able to develop a very good balance and working relationship between the two. He truly views his job as being in support of operations. He's building their railroad and signal system and he has to make sure it's what they want and that it works for them. That makes all the difference in the world. I think that's one of NYCT's greatest accomplishments over the past five years."
Nagaraja also balances the needs of the community into the equation. On a system that operates 24 hours a day, 365 days a year, projects are never easy to schedule or complete. Business and civic leaders are often at odds with NYCT for the inconvenience caused by construction. The very nature of the work sets up some very interesting and often contentious issues.
O'Leary recalls a water problem in the main line at Lenox Avenue that had plagued the system for 90 years. The problem had been addressed on several occasions but never adequately repaired. The damage had taken its toll. If the water problem persisted, the subway would have to be shut down for good.
Says O'Leary, "We had to lower the water table in a 10-block area of Manhattan in order to go in and rebuild the invert, the floor and waterproof and replace the tracks. It happened in Harlem, a community that generally considers itself to get the short end of the stick on deals."
Reuter adds: "The water problem started getting so bad. There were geysers - artesian wells - pumping up. Obviously that corrodes the signal system and track and creates a lot of serious problems besides undermining the foundation of the subway. So we finally decided we needed to fix it and fix it right.
"We tasked Nagaraja and his people with coming up with a design to do that. We had a meeting with the people of Harlem. It was not a pleasant meeting. We heard, 'Oh, you're going to do this in Harlem, shut the system down. We've heard this before. It's racial. You're picking on Harlem.'
We said, "No, no. We're doing this for Harlem. This is going to be the first time that we're going to do the job right. We're going to get it done early. And we're going to provide great service during the process.'
"Nobody argued that we needed to fix the subway. They could see the artesian wells themselves. But they thought that there had to be a better way to fix it than to shut it down. We got into some pretty heated discussions with all the elected officials."
Reuter felt especially sensitive to the issues raised by the Harlem community. To help assure on-time completion, he incentivized the main contractor to complete the job early. "I'm a big believer that credibility is 99 percent of the battle. People have to believe you. We paid a lot of money to the contractor to complete the job early. When completed, it was one of the most pleasant checks we ever wrote.
"We went to a press conference at a station in Harlem where they actually complimented us. Never, never, has that ever happened. I didn't know how to take compliments from all these elected officials. They had to admit they didn't believe in us, they didn't trust us. But eventually they were convinced that we were serious and being honest and sincere with them."
Reuter and Nagaraja worked with the community throughout the construction process. Every week community officials were advised of progress and problems.
"There were problems," says Reuter. "We had to remove one of the sub-contractors up there because he wasn't doing it quick enough. But the contractor complied and the project got done. It was truly one of the greatest accomplishments we ever did. That has helped us long term. Now we've done more projects like that where we have actually had to shut the system or a station down for awhile."
NYCT moved on to the Franklin Avenue shuttle where subway repairs were long overdue. Says Reuter, "It's one of the more racially sensitive areas in the city of New York. For years, the MTA and NYCT wanted to just close it down. It didn't make money. There was tremendous vandalism and fare evasion. NYCT wanted to just run buses."
Politically, closing down the subway was impossible. When the decision finally was made to maintain the system, Reuter explained to the parties that the system was in such disrepair that it would have to be rebuilt.
"From the community we heard the same things we heard in Harlem. 'You're never going to reopen. This is just a ruse. You're going to shut it down and never reopen.'
"We decided to do the same thing we did in Harlem. We got a contractor and put incentives in place for early completion. We closed it down, completed the job a month ahead of schedule and now it's one of the most beautiful pieces of subway line you will ever see."
New credibility in the community
There were problems, of course, with the reconstruction of the Franklin Avenue subway. One contractor was almost fired until he figured out that Reuter was serious about getting the job done right and on time. In the end, the contractor performed better than expected and actually thanked Reuter for setting him straight.
"At the time, he admitted he wasn't doing a good job. He said, 'I didn't realize how serious you guys were. I thought this was a regular government job.' I told him, we may be quasi-governmental, but we don't consider ourselves government here. We're an organization that believes in getting the job done. He totally turned around.
"We're not necessarily always full of good stories here. Once upon a time we had a reputation of never doing what we said. Now we're trying to create a reputation for always doing what we say we'll do.
"Now, we also tell people in the communities the truth. And the truth isn't always pretty. Sometimes we have to be pretty blunt with people and let them know what the facts are.
"I think people actually prefer that. They don't necessarily like it at the first meeting when the honesty doesn't always go the way they want to hear. But ultimately they respect it. Now, at more and more of these meetings, they just want to hear if we're really serious about doing this, is this a commitment, have we thought about this and that, will we talk to them every week along the way. We assure them we will.
"Because of the Lenox Avenue project, we were able to shut down Franklin Avenue, 181st Street, Park Street… I mean we're doing things that never could have been accomplished even as recently as the 1980s." Interestingly, the Lenox Avenue project was done in the Governor's election year. "I told my people, if this fails, there's no doubt that I'm gone. But it turned out to be one of our biggest success stories."
To assure on-time delivery of construction projects, Reuter and Nagaraja streamlined the old bureaucracy. They put a team together of players who could make decisions on the spot, including procurement people and lawyers. "When problems arose, we couldn't wait a week or two," says Reuter. "We had to make quick decisions. One contractor who has done a lot of work with us over the years commented that decisions came out of us faster than he ever experienced. We do more and more of that now, to make sure we really can deliver on these jobs."
Reuter and his team have done much to become more efficient throughout the organization. He gives most credit to the caliber of people who help manage.
"We've done a good job of hiring really good people and giving them the authority to get the job done. That's the key. When you run an organization this size, you can't just have your key staff, the 10 or 12 people who report to me, who are really competent. It has to be a lot of people. When we talk about 100 projects, those are just the big projects. We literally have thousands of projects going on at any one point in time. All those projects need to go well because even the little ones can become big issues here in the city."
It took years to transform NYCT into what it has become. At funding time, the question state and local legislators used to ask was how much could be cut. Now the discussion often shifts to what should be improved next.
Reuter says NYCT is now in the process of changing the face of technology at NYCT like never before.
Communications-based train controls
"In the 1980s, our whole job really was rebuilding the existing infrastructure. We restored all of the older cars, the older signal system, the power systems. Our mission was to get them where we could rely on them, not have them catch on fire, not have them break down on us everyday. And that was done.
"We're really reaping the benefits of what was accomplished in the 1980s. The system is running better now than it has ever run before.
"Now we are at the stage where we're really beginning to change the technology here. Even though we were rebuilding the signal system in the 1980s, the technology was still 50 years old. It was the old signal block technology. We went in and replaced the 70-year-old signals with signals that were brand new. But when you went out there and looked at them you saw green, yellow and red. It didn't look or operate any differently. The only difference was, it was new equipment, more reliable.
"Now we're making some major changes. We skipped a whole generation of signal technology. We literally changed from 19th century to 21st century. We are now putting in communication-based train controls. We're putting in a signal system that basically doesn't even need all those yellow, green and red lights anymore. The system will automatically drive the train.
"Our trains have always been driven by human beings. Operators start and stop them, give them power, control the train. We're now putting in a system, truly state of the art, that will allow computers to control the trains, glide the trains, speed the trains, stop the trains. We're still going to have people on the trains to be there for customer service activities and emergency situations, but we're now changing it to where we will have software and computers controlling our trains. This is a major change for a system like ours."
The new centralized control center currently under construction in Manhattan, at 54th Street, will open up at the end of this year. As the automatic train supervision (ATS) system comes on line, NYCT controllers for the first time will be provided real-time information about train location, speed and other key variables. Also for the first time, the many command centers will be consolidated into one location.
The current train system, which operates across 60 towers scattered around the city, depends on operator relays via radio. Tower operators see and control only one section of the subway system. Information is then relayed between towers and to the Rapid Transit Operations Center. The new system, when fully implemented, will centralize all those functions into one command center.
"To convert it from a fixed-box signal system to communications-based train controls (CBTC) for the entire system, we're going to see it done incrementally," says Reuter. "We have already awarded a contract for the L-line (Canarsie line: Manhattan to Brooklyn). We picked that line because it's an isolated line, we can put the technology in place and make sure we have all the issues resolved there. After that, then we'll begin to expand."
Reuter estimates it will take 30 or 40 years before the entire system can be fully installed. "Remember, we run 24 hours a day, seven days a week, 365 days a year. We only get to work certain hours, and we are only able to impact certain customers. That's the reason it's going to take so long, because we don't have the luxury of closing the system down in order to rebuild. I tell people, what we're doing here is remodeling your house while you're living in it. You don't even get to go to a hotel."
CBTC will be installed in sections along the city's 656 miles of track, which means some trains will be running on the new communications-based train control system while others continue to run on fixed block.
"Those are big challenges. Not to mention how we get our workforce trained and ready for this new technology. The maintenance guys are going to get rid of the hammers and bolts and screwdrivers and start going around with all these electronic meters. It's going to change the way we work.
"From the customer's perspective, it's going to be absolutely amazing. They're going to get real time information in the future. Signs at the stations will tell them when the next four or six trains will arrive. The new trains have automatic announcements on them that say: 'You are now at Grand Central Station. Next stop, 33rd Street.' Additionally, there will be electronic signs inside the cars that say the same thing.
"Those are truly monumental changes from a customer perspective. Our customers are a pretty sophisticated group of people for the most part. They travel all over the world and they see those types of systems in many other places. They say, 'Why not New York?'
"We're now to the point where we have enough of the system rebuilt where we can start to do those type of systems here in New York. You're going to see tremendous changes in the technology. Getting it all up and running is a major challenge."
Subway, then and now
Consolidating the control system is just the latest step in bringing together the diverse elements of New York City's subway. Although MTA New York City Transit manages all subway service (and most bus service) in the city today, at one time private companies managed most transit routes.
New York's first subway system opened in Manhattan on October 27, 1904. The Interborough Rapid Transit Company (IRT) operated a 9.1-mile long subway line which consisted of 28 stations from City Hall to 145th Street and Broadway. IRT service was extended to the Bronx in 1905, to Brooklyn in 1908 and to Queens in 1915.
The Brooklyn Rapid Transit Company (BRT) began subway service between Brooklyn and Manhattan in 1915. The Brooklyn-Manhattan Transit Corporation (BMT) took over BRT operations a few years later.
In 1932, the city's Board of Transportation completed construction of the 8th Avenue line and created the Independent Rapid Transit Railroad (IND), the first city-run subway service. The city purchased the BMT and IRT in 1940 and became the sole operator of all New York City subway and elevated lines. NYCT also operates the Staten Island Rapid Transit, a single line running north to south on Staten Island, from Tottenville to St. George, as a separate entity.
With all these companies merging, soon it became apparent that each line had its own eccentricities. While track gauge is the same, tunnel clearances are different. Passenger cars that could run on one line could not necessarily operate on another.
"The IRTs are shorter, lengthwise, and narrower," says Reuter. "The BNDs are like a mid-size car, 60 feet, and wider. The INDs are longer cars. So you can't run INDs or BNT cars on the IRT. We can run IRT cars over the BNT track, but if we use the other cars, they have a tendency to hit tunnels because they're too wide and too long."
While many older cars are still in operation, NYCT now tries to standardize when purchasing new ones. As the subway infrastructure has been rebuilt, car breakdown has become less frequent. Says Reuter, "When I was here in the 1980s, the subway fleet was averaging just under 3,000 miles between failures. Last month we reported to the board that we're at an all time record of 135,000 miles between failures on the subway.
"Right now we have the largest order in history coming in, so we expect those numbers to go even higher. We started revenue testing with one of those primary car manufacturers (Kawasaki) that's about to deliver our new cars. The Bombardier cars should start revenue testing soon, too. We split the 1,080 order between the two manufacturers.
"We'll replace the oldest cars in the fleet. Those old cars are actually holding the numbers down at that 135,000 figure. So we'll see those numbers go up further."
The oldest cars account for 1,400 of the 6,000-car fleet. The older cars are used on the IRT - The Red Bird - and are 40 years old. The new replacement cars are far more superior technologically and include many new customer amenities. Reuter believes the new cars will be the most popular ever in New York City.
Subway crime down
One of the biggest issues for customers on the New York subway system used to be crime. Starting in the 1980s, according to Reuter, NYCT and NYPD initiated a concentrated program to deal with "quality of life" crimes. "The idea being, take care of the little things and the big things will take care of themselves. The fact of the matter is, it worked. And it still works today. Crime is 50 percent less than what it used to be on the system."
Quality of life crimes include petty acts such as fare evasion and graffiti. In the 1990s, New York City Mayor Rudolph W. Giuliani merged the Transit Authority Police department into the New York City Police Department. At the same time, the bureau continued to focus its efforts on community policing and set about motivating the police department to deal with quality of life crimes, which continues to this day.
The police spend a great deal of their time trying to catch people evading fares. Says O'Leary, "In 1990, we had almost 19,000 felonies on the system, the highest number in the history of the subway system. This year, if we continue on the current pace, we'll have about 4,000."
The NYPD is very responsive to the needs of MTA NYCT. They have become an integral part of every decision-making process, including purchasing new subway cars. "They help us make sure the cars are done with the proper security measures in mind," says Reuter. "We are now putting intercoms on the cars. The railings at the doors were installed so a criminal can't reach in and rip a chain off someone's neck. The police are involved in station design, building design, car design, bus design. They offer their expertise and input in making our system better."
NYCT sent police representatives on a trip to Japan to make suggestions regarding the new subway cars. Says O'Leary, "The new cars have dedicated wheelchair spaces. So there are flip down seats. This police representative took one look at that and said, 'The kids will break that.' And the manufacturers said, 'No, you can't break that.' So he grabbed the handrail, stood on it, jumped on it and it broke.
"That was good, because they modified that seat before delivering 1,080 cars. The police also came up with the suggestion that we put the three large glass windows at the ends of the cars. Now people will literally be able to see through five cars. People couldn't do that before where there was one little window and a door, or it was obstructed by a cab. And the new cars are much brighter; the lighting is remarkable."
Before merging with NYPD, the transit force numbered 5,000, which made it the sixth largest police force in the country, by far the largest force dedicated to transit in the world. Now, as part of the 40,000-person NYPD, the transit bureau is able to allocate resources from all over the city, whenever and wherever they are needed.
The last word
When you run a organization this large, you never know everything that's going on. "And if you do know everything, not much is going on," says Reuter. "You don't want to stifle people. What you really want to do is give people the ability and responsibility to get the job done. Have the checks and balances and accountabilities. But turn them loose and let them go out and do their jobs and have fun.
"We have a bunch of very good people here and that's why the system is running as well as it's running. They really know their jobs well, and they're dedicated. I mean, they're not in it for the money. None of these people are going to get rich working here. And a lot of these people probably could retire from here at a pretty young age, get a pretty good pension and go to work for a consultant and make a lot more money. They don't do it. You know why? They like their jobs. It's a fun place to work."
Where else can you get to move 7 million people a day, and every night go home and feel satisfied that you helped keep the busiest city on earth working.
Has the author ever been to New York?
The section on rebuilding the Lennox Ave. line was interesting, but it seems to be pretty much a single-sourced article, based on the statements of Larry Reuter, which are very self-serving at times -- Dick Ratvich gets a mention, but David Gunn has become a non-person, and it was during his term that the anti-graffiti efforts finally started working.
But I guess some of the current employees of NYCT can fill in some of the gaps even better.
Has the author ever been to New York?
This weekend while taking the B to Coney Island, I noticed in the yard several sets of R40S trains with B roller curtains. The others were Q's. Is it possible that come monday those R40's will be on the B?
Slant R-40s are on the B just about every weekend, primarily on Saturdays.
David
The section on rebuilding the Lennox Ave. line was interesting, but it seems to be pretty much a single-sourced article, based on the statements of Larry Reuter, which are very self-serving at times -- Dick Ratvich gets a mention, but David Gunn has become a non-person, and it was during his term that the anti-graffiti efforts finally started working.
But I guess some of the current employees of NYCT can fill in some of the gaps even better.
Today was Members' Day at Seashore. I know it's a lot farther from NYC than Shoreline, but we had a wonderful day. Colorful trees, and a great assortment of trolleys, interurbans, and buses running. I even took a group out for lunch in town on our Fishbowl GMC bus #6169.
SubTalkers on property included Jeremy Whiteman, Tim Speer, Gerry O'Regan, and special guest The Transit Professional Formerly Known as Mr. R-46 (and his wife). TTPFKAMR46 did a stellar job operating our Boston Type-5 trolley #5821, and got to throw some hand switches -- something he doesn't do too often on-the-job in the NYC subway.
I took a trip to the Shoreline Trolley Museum today for Autumn in New York days. The had a lot of the New York cars out and running - The R-9, R-17, etc. There were several Subtalkers there including BMTman, Thurston, Lou from Brooklyn, heypaul, Dave Shanske, Larry,RedbirdR33, (1) South Ferry (9), Jeff H. and Stef, and probably some others whose names I didn't get.
The highlight of the trip for me was being able to climb aboard the Mineola, August Belmont's private car.
i always speak highly of you, Bob....and you forgot me I'm hurt. 8-)
it was good to see you again
Peace,
ANDEE
It was a fun day for myself and my friend Al also. Driving 6688 outbound to Short Beach was fun and Subwaysurf did a great job on the return. I'm psyched to go back on members day. I also got to see the Mineola (courtesy of Lou from Brooklyn). Thankfully it was rescued from a scrap heap but unfortunately like alot of the other equipment (as well as the equipment as Sea Shore) major bucks and major time is needed for a full restoration.
The weather was perfect and a large THANK YOU is in order for Lou, Lou, Multiple Dennis', Dave Shansky, Motorman Jeff, Thurston, JJ and everyone else who helped make this day possible. Also thanx for not allowing Doug (they call me MISTER Luciano) BMT man to re-enact the Malbone Street wreck with # 1227. I know why he wants to do it with all of us as passengers. THE MOTORMAN SURVIVED but 100 passengers (us) didn't. BTW the anniversay of that day is 24 days away.
Again to everyone at Branford a heartfelt thank you.
Hart Bus a/k/a Mr. 6688 MIT (motorman in traning)
Please forgive me, Andee!!!
Oink,
For what things are the buzzers in a train cab used? I know that one of those is for the operator to tell the conductor that there's a red signal and that the conductor should keep the doors open, and conversely that the light is now green, close the doors. What are others?
In cases where the train is not equiped with an intercom, the conductor can tell the train that he needs:
A road car inspector O O O
Police assistance - 0 - 0
Don't move the train -
Of course in the era of hand-held radios, the function of the buzzed is obsolete.
In addition to what others have said.
In the subway:
At the beginning of a run, the TO and CR exchange 2 long and 2 short buzzes.
In commuter rail:
Indicates the number of cars that are open (if more than 2, or else it gets confusing - I only see this on NJT and engine hauled trains).
Tell the LE okay to proceed (especially when leaving doors open).
During various brake proceedures before a run.
If one walks down the 45th Street Passage from the Biltmore Room in Grand Central, one gets to a blocked stairway where it turns westward, where did this lead?
At the end of the passage are two stairs, one is marked "Madison Avenue" To get to Madison Avenue from the top of those stairs one has to pass through the MTA Lobby (or use another building to Vanderbilt Avenue). Is that a public thoroughfare, or would I be prosecuted as an overzealous railfan if I used that path?
At the end of the passage are two stairs, one is marked "Madison Avenue" To get to Madison Avenue from the top of those stairs one has to pass through the MTA Lobby (or use another building to Vanderbilt Avenue). Is that a public thoroughfare, or would I be prosecuted as an overzealous railfan if I used that path?
I've seen many people use it, so it's presumably for public use.
Through the MTA Lobby, or through the building on Vanderbilt?
Through the MTA Lobby, or through the building on Vanderbilt?
The MTA building itself. IIRC, the entrance from GCT is located between the MTA building's front entrance and reception desk. You do not have to enter the non-public areas of the building in order to access GCT.
10/07/2000
That's what it said on the box I viewed today at the large Greenberg Train show at Hofstra University. The setup which was tagged at $85.00 had the trolley with curved and straight tracks (O guage) and power pack. Just the ticket for any youngster this holiday/
The trolley itself was a single trucker with clerestory roof. The paint scheme didn't reflect BQ&T, TARS or any other paint scheme we are familar with. Just a dark redish body with light grayish roof. But something is wierd about this O guage trolley car................Maybe it was the number....#6688 !!!
Does that number sound familiar to you guys at Branford ? Hmmmmm !
Bill "Newkirk"
According to the latest information, it would seem that the B train will be cut back to 8 car trains of 60-foot cars. What is interesting is that although the cars will be stored in Concourse Yard it's likely that they will not be maintained by Concourse Shop. It now appears that the cars will be inspected & maintained by Pitkin Maintenance Shop. Wayne, order extra erasers !!!
Wouldn't it make more sense to maintain the B 60-footers out of 207th and have the C train 60-foote cars maintained out of Pitkin? The C has access to both yards and the B gets a heck of a lot closer to 207th than it ever does to Pitkin.
Barn space, both in the number of available tracks and in the number of employees that can be supported, likely had a lot to do with the selection.
Is the Concourse shop totally unable to maintain any class of 60' cars? Wouldn't it make more sense to equip it to handle these cars, instead of shopping them all the way out in Brooklyn?
The question has many facets to it. Physically, Concourse shop could easily support the maintenance of 60 foot cars. This is true especially since the Concourse fleet may be reduced from 276 cars to 112. However, there are other factors to consider. Basing the cars at Pitkin allows for a lower spare factor since Pitkin already has 60 foot cars in its fleet. Also, Concourse shop maintains Westinghouse car. All 60 foot cars are GE and would mean expanding the Concourse storeroom to accommodate 2 fleets worth of parts. Finally, the introduction of GE cars at Concourse Shop would require some very intense training since most Concourse Car Inspectors are more junior employees and have not been exposed to GE propulsion.
Is it related with the closure of the north side of Manhattan Bridge? If so, it does really make sense because of the shortened B line.
My guess is that Coney Island R32s will move to Piktin Yard for B trains. Some Concourse R68s will move to Coney Island Yard for N, Q, W, and potentially G trains.
Chaohwa
It is due to the bridge and the 63rd St. connection. As for the movement of cars, Concourse R-68s will move to Coney Island. Coney Island R-32s (phase II) will move to Jamaica and Jamaica R-32s (Phase I)will move to Pitkin.
I hope that 3730 (and mate) will not be moved there! When the A got increased service during the Willy-B rehab they moved away, and that was hard enough on me (though seeing my car in the Rockaways brightened my day).
This will leave Jamaica's R-32s still assigned exclusively to the E?
Under all 4 options the E retains the R-32s. However, there are other factions that are leaning towards moving R-46s to the E Line.
Sinage is a big consideration now. The luminator side signs need to be updated with new terminals. In addition new roll signs will be ordered or decals ordered to modify existing signs.
No, the luminators already have V with all Queens terminals, (irrespective of whether it or the F are 63rd or 53rd), and V is on all the rollsigns.
I thought Concourse would get R-40m's and some 42's (especially if only 112 cars are required). But I guess if they base it in Pitkin, they might want the 32's for the sake of uniformity. Then I guess the 40m's go back to Coney Island, which will be devoid of all R-32's. They will then be entirely IND cars, and the R-40's entirely BMT, swapping their original divisions. (and next year the two divisions become largely separate again like pre-1967 days)
Perhaps they should switch them next year.
Once again, all of this is tentative, but I hope all of this gives follo the idea of next year's assignment he's been asking so much for.
The Luminator signs may already have the 'V' (I have not checked the master list) but they do not have the W nor do they have the Q (Broadway) terminal.
Yes they do. The NY Division ERA Bulletin has printed the full list of codes (and I think FDNY once posted some of them, without the codes), and they have all sorts of combinations; they tried to include every possible routing of the lines:
•the V to Queens, or to uptown; to Coney Island via the Culver or Brighton (and also to Church, and of course to 2nd Av.).
•The W to Astoria, Queensboro Plaza, Queens Blvd, 57th St., and to any Southern Div route and terminal in Brooklyn.
•There's also the A via the Brighton;
•H and K with various 6th and 8th Av. destinations (including uptown and 21st St. Queensbridge),
•all of the southern div. routes can be swapped around, and they all can go to Chambers or Essex on the Nassau line,
•the T (West End) with 6th Av, Bway or Nassau destinations,
•and even an X to 21st St. and WTC!
Hey, if new roll signs or decals are going to be ordered, maybe this time they can get them with yellow P's or T's on them with routes so we don't have to have two Q trains. When they get new signs or decals hopefully they'll begin modifying the cars as soon as they get them.
what are the 4 plans?
I've read the prior responses but for the life of me, this makes NO sense. To have a fleet maintained by a yard that isn't even close to the line is ludicrous. My questions:
1)In your estimation, how many T/O jobs would have to be created to transfer B/O cars to Pitkin and good cars back? (I'm not sure if you can answer this one as you are not RTO)
2)How many extra R32 cars(if any) would stay at CCYD in the event that B/O cars are unable(for any reason) to make it to PIT?
3)Would CCYD RCI's repair defects such as broken glass, etc. on B line R32's? I know that CIYD RCI's absolutely REFUSE to fix M line R42 defects. They say that's ENYD's work. I should know as I've been caught in the middle of this a few times. So would they say that it is PIT's work?
These are only a few that come to mind. To not have a direct yard link to a line could be asking for trouble if a Y/D has to run B/O cars or has to take away cars from the D just to make B service.
Question 3 is the only one I can answer with certainty. More B trains lay up in CCYD than D trains. The B trains and the D trains all belong to the same CMO & ACMO. If one of my bosses trains need repairs or cleaning it will be repaired or cleaned. End of story.
Must you all keep abbreviating? What do all those abbreviations mean, anyway? (RTO? B/O? RCI? Y/D? CMO? ACMO?)
- Lyle Goldman
RTO aka DOS= Rapid Transit Operations.
B/O= Bad order(i.e. B/O car, door, etc.). Also designates the Bus Operator title.
RCI= Road Car Inspector.
Y/D= Yard Dispatcher.
CMO= Chief Mechanical Officer(head CED honcho).
ACMO= Assistant CMO.
CED aka DCE= Car Equipment Division.
In transit, if it can't be abbreviated with 3 or 4 letters, it doesn't exist.
You should see all the abbreviations we use at my company.
The Straphangers Campaign just revamped their website. See the NY1 story here: New Website Warns Subway and Bus Commuters of Delays.
Straphangers Network
OCTOBER 04TH, 2000
Straphangers Network Website
Transit information from the NYPIRG Straphangers organization.
www.straphangers.org
Is it just me or are the Straphangers pure evil. From the feel I got from their website I think they should rename some of their subsections:
Why transit workers are lazy bums.
How to be a jerk.
Yelling loudly will make things improve.
Subways should be free.
Why things are not your fault.
Uninformed Opinion Generator *new*.
Its just you.
In the view of the Straphangers Campaign, the TA and its' employees can do nothing right. They inspect the cleanliness of cars at the point of a run where they have a greater chance of being dirty because the slobs (oops, customers) made them dirty with their spilt liquids, discarded baby diapers, discarded chicken bones, discarded newspapers and the like all over the floor, and they say the TA isn't keeping the cars clean and has lax supervision. They complain of poor on time performance but have nothing to say about door holding by "customers". And believe me, at some stations somebody is always coming down those stairs and the conductor HAS to close the doors and SOMEBODY will invariably hold them. I have absolutely no use for them.
As I noted on BusTalk, this self-appointed "advocacy group" makes money ONLY as long as it has something to "advocate." As soon as NYC's subway and bus systems run like the Swiss railroads, it'll have no reason to exist.
That's why Straphangers so vigorously opposed the MTA's first Capital Program in the 1980's, and that's why its people still sabotage service to this day. [Ever notice how the numbers of BIE's and "sick passengers" INCREASE within the four to five weeks before Straphangers issues a blistering report about on-time performance, and then SUBSIDE immediately after?]
Bill from Maspeth is right - I have no use for them, either.
I wonder just how large an organization the Straphangers really is. You never seem to hear of anyone quoted by name except its leader, Gene Russianoff (who formerly was called the group's "Staff Attorney," a rather odd title for a nonprofit to have). My suspicion - and yes, I could be wrong - is that Gene Russianoff basically is the Straphangers Campaign.
No it isn't just you. The Straphengers campaign is run by PIRG, who are all a bunch of pinko, Naderites. Don't even get me started on their views.
Nor I. They actually do a diservice to riders by telling them they deserve more for their fare when it's a proven fact that a significant percentage of the cost to provide a single straphanger their ride is NOT covered by their $1.50 fare.
Things I have learned:
The Straphangers Campaign doesn't represent anyone other than the Straphangers Campaign.
-and-
Straphanger is a stupid word.
Mark
You've been gone more than a week!
You're stabilizing influence has been missed!
Welcome Back!
Thanks! It's good to be back.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
1. Are the B-IVs getting truck replacements? More and more I've been riding B-IVs upon which the air conditioner is louder than the noise that the train makes when it is moving at 60 MPH. Also, their loudest noise when moving is a high pitched "whine."
2. Are the wayside signals on the Frankford el actually being removed now, or will they not be removed until the entire ATO is inserted, Frankford to 69th.
3. Why aren't they closing the el from 40th to 5th?
I understand that the trucks on the B-IV's are being rebuilt with new air suspension components and rubber components, simialr to the PATCO fleet. As far as the wayside signals on The Market-Frankord Line, they will still reain until the Market Street end gets ATO. The good news (at least temporarily) is that on the weekends, the Frankford portion is once again the domain of the Almond Joys (even though they are on maintenance-of-way assgnments.
I understand that the trucks on the B-IV's are being rebuilt with new air suspension components and rubber components, simialr to the PATCO fleet.
Long live the Poineer III truck!
I thought the entire fleet consisted of just M-4's. Are you saying they are bringing back the M-3's? I thought SEPTA wanted to keep the image up by saying this is the "new-el"!
Chuck Greene
They're using the Almond Joys for work service. I did not say that they were picking up passengers.
Thanks! My misconceptions are now corrected. I do remember them saying they would use some units for "work trains",
Thanks again!
Chuck Greene
I was riding the "F" train last week to Coney Island and when I passed the Coney Island yard I noticed that on R-4 #491 half of one side of the car had been painted green. I wonder when the restoration job will be completed.
BMTJeff
Oh no. Even though no R1-R9 car had that unusual white body/blue door paint scheme, I loved it and hoped it would've been maintained.
Anyone who is an ole timer will probably remember the BMT "D" types a.k.a. "Triplex" and the "Multi-section" cars. Since the TA is putting together cars in multiple car sets they might as well have articulated cars. I hope they consider this option for future orders since I think that articulated cars that are divided into multiple section are better than individual cars arranged into 4 or 5 car sets.
BMTJeff
Anyone who is an old timer will probably remember the BMT "D" types a.k.a. "Triplex" and the "Multi-section" cars. Since the TA is putting together cars in multiple car sets they might as well have articulated cars. I hope they consider this option for future orders since I think that articulated cars that are divided into multiple section are better than individual cars arranged into 4 or 5 car sets.
BMTJeff
I've got Greller's book "Subway cars of the BMT". It gives good information and nice pictures of the Triplex, Green Hornet, Zephyr, Bluebird and Multi-section cars. I agree with you that if the TA is going to put cars in four- and five-car sets, they really should use articulated cars. Articulated cars are used in Hamburg, Germany and Stockholm, Sweeden. They should use them here.
They also run articulated trains in Paris on the #1, #7bis, and #14 lines(Metro-RATP). There they call it an intercirculated train.
But what makes it interesting is that they take a regular 7 car train on the #1 line (MP89 equipment) and they took out all the ends turning it into one great big train! Needless to say that the first time that I saw this, I was flabbergasted to say the least!
I agree completely. Articulation has tremendous benefits, with lower maintenance costs, higher speeds around curves, and lower weight, important on some of the older els on the BMT eastern division. I wish the R143 was articulated ...
Too bad the TA is so blind that it won't even bother testing articulated cars. The BMT was ahead of its time. Too bad the TA isn't.
The Triplexes were an exception to the reduced weight concept. Those gentle behemoths weighed in at 105 tons, on the average. Nontheless, they were built to last. Their premature slaughter was one of the two all-time biggest blunders the TA ever made (I think you know the other blunder).
10/09/2000
[Their premature slaughter was one of the two all-time biggest blunders the TA ever made (I think you know the other blunder).]
The R-44 ?
Bill "Newkirk"
Not quite. I'd vote for the spending of billions to partially replace a perfectly good el in Jamaica.
How about them destroying the 3rd ave el without replacing it with a subway.
Well the 3rd. Ave. el had to come down in the mid 1950's, since it was so obsolete and rickety. Not so with the el on Jamaica Ave.
Ding! Ding! Ding! You got it.
The R-44 deserves an honorable mention, though.
I would also suggest that the Chicago Transit Authority look into this option for future orders. Since the retirement of the 1-50 series several years ago, every line on the system has operated with married two-car pairs. If there are no plans to revert to single-car operation (and I can't imagine that there are), it would seem that two-car articulated units could achieve some saving of weight and, presumably, cost.
I have a soft spot for the CRT/CTA 5000 (later 51-54) series three-unit articulateds, rapid transit's closest approximation of an Electroliner.
--
Alan Follett
Hercules, CA
The CTA used the single unit cars (1-50, and the 5000 series artics) for one-person train operation. Up until recently (within last 10 years), two car trains couldn't be used for OPTO for two reasons:
1. Union contracts required a conductor on trains with more than one car. (The 5000 series articulated cars were considered a single car, so they could be operated without a conductor, and were operated that way on the Skokie Swift for many years.)
2. On-board fare collection required a conductor except on the 1-50 singles which were set up with a door by the cab and a farebox in the cab.
Within the past decade, the union restrictions have been overcome, and on board fare collection is no longer used on the CTA. Thus, there is not the need for the "single-unit" cars for OPTO.
-- Ed Sachs
As you know ol' friend, I am an enthusiastic fan of the old Triplex cars. They are a page from the childhood memories and I love to see them again when I look up some of the old cars on another site on this web. I've often thought of trying to purchase one, put in my back yard and make a romper room of it. Then I could enjoy it all the time. However, none are for sale, I don't have the room, and I'm not that rich. Ah well.
#4 Sea Beach Fred:
I wonder what you would think if the TA revived the bright idea of the BMT by using articulated subway cars once again. I'm sure that you would be ecstatic.
BMTJeff
I'd like to see the MTA go back to articulated cars when it's time for the R-44s to retire. Replacing two 75-foot cars with a three-section 150-foot articulated unit (at 50-feet per section, the same length as standard IRT cars) would allow an additional four doors per side on a 600-foot car (36 doors at nine doors per articulated unit, instead of the 8x4=32 under the current set-up), which would shorten loading/unloading times, and more importantly, they could be used on the entire system, either as four articulated units on the IND and BMT Southern Division or as three units (450 feet) on the BMT Eastern Division.
And yet it looks as if the MTA has no plans to use articulated subway cars. That's backwards New York thinking for you.
They may change their thinking 10 to 15 years from now, as the 75-footers get older and less reliable but because of their length, the MTA has no way to shunt them off to the lesser-used lines on the Eastern Division, as was done with the R-7/9s, R-16s, R-42s....
J Lee:
I think you have a great idea with a modern version of the old BMT triplexs. I don't know whether the TA will have the same thinking as you have but I think like you that articulated subway cars are better than individual subway cars.
BMTJeff
Hey Fred,
While not as big a Sea Beach fan as you, (after all, the 2 most frequented lines in my childhood were the West End and the Brighton)I am an avid BMT fan with a real slant (no pun intended) to the Southern Division.
And what could be better for great memories than the ABs and D-types holding down ALL Southern service prior to the arrival of the R27/30, when I was just a toddler in the late 50s?
Oh, alright, I do admit a fondness too for the IND R1/9s, since they did cover all service into Stillwell on the Culver during the time mentioned.
BTW, an articulated car would be just perfect for all BMT/IND service; no longer would different length cars be required for the Eastern and Southern Divisions.
We've got: Hot Lunch!
Hot Lunch: I like your attitude. Keep on pitching, and don't forget to ride my Sea Beach every chance you get.
If I ignore the munchkins, they will go away. You know what? I'm making use of the killfile. While I'm trying to keep quiet some still keep talking. Incredible! If I can't be nice, what's the point of me being here? One of these days I may hang it up.
One of these days, Dave is gonna shut this down and a number of you will have no one to blame but yourselves.
-Stef
I'm going to first generalize this question to the limit. Let us say on a subtalk field trip with a large group of 25-50 SubTalkers in attendence a main stream reporter see us acting strangly, walks up and asks "Who are you, what are you and what is your opinion on transit question X." Now our exaulted leader Dave had his camera stolen by a rat and is trying to chase it down before it is fenced so he can't give us guidance or officialy invoke the name of nycsubway.org. Should we say SubTalk, or nycsubway.org or railfan group? Should we disavow all group affiliation and talk to the reporter as indivuduals? Are we a message board or a transit discussion group? Should we all try to form a consensus and give a single group answer to the question or should we bombard the reporter with a million answers? As pointless as this thread seems on my one SubTalk field trip we always sort ran into difficulty when people asked who we were. It would not be unreasonable to believe that at some point some group of SubTalkers are going to be put in a place where some sort of spotlight can be put on this site and it is good to know how we should respond. I know that Dave et al has always felt that SubTalk shouldn't be "partisan" and have positions. It would be a shame to have someone accidently put this site in a bad light.
On a lighter note one method could be after the question was asked we go into a live action version of the MB with people voicing new threads and others replying. Then we realize that the sun has gone down and the news crew left 3 hours ago. This way the entire group gets a say and we avoid any publicity what-so-ever.
>>>As pointless as this thread seems on my one SubTalk field trip we always sort ran into difficulty when people asked who we were<<<
I have dealt with this question many times while being an tours.
I always tell them were just a bunch of nuts.
Peace,
ANDEE
>>> Should we disavow all group affiliation and talk to the reporter as indivuduals? Are we a message board or a transit discussion group? Should we all try to form a consensus and give a single group answer to the question <<<
Subtalk is not a "group" in any organizational meaning. One of the most important attributes of any unincorporated group is that each of the members may be held liable for actions of the group. Therefore if on a Subtalk field trip one of the "members" took a flash photo in a subway station which momentarily startled a passenger who then fell on the tracks, all members could be held liable.
A while back, someone (was it you Mike?) suggested that an organization be formed based on Subtalk for promoting rapid transit. Dave Pirmann wanted nothing to do with it and it quickly died.
Subtalk is clearly not an organization. Each of us is an individual with his/her opinions. There is no official "group answer" to any given question. I think Dave Pirmann and most of us want to keep it that way.
Tom
Disclaimer: I am not a lawyer or an expert on law.
You stated that all "members" (attendees?) on a SubTalk field trip could be liable for the actions of one "member". I don't see how that could be true, since there is nor formal SubTalk organization. Organized railfan groups that run fantrips usually must purchase liability insurance for the event.
>>> You stated that all "members" (attendees?) on a SubTalk field trip could be liable for the actions of one "member" <<<
George;
Sorry if my post was not clear. That would be true if Subtalk were an organized group, which it is not. And the reason organized Railfan groups buy liability insurance for events is because each of the members would be liable for negligence by anyone in the group.
Tom
As a cop for almost 19 years I have my stock answer anytime a reporter asks me anything:"I'm sorry, but I hate the press"
Let us say on a subtalk field trip with a large group of 25-50 SubTalkers in attendence a main stream reporter see us acting strangly, walks up and asks "Who are you, what are you and what is your opinion on transit question X." Now our exaulted leader Dave had his camera stolen by a rat and is trying to chase it down before it is fenced so he can't give us guidance or officialy invoke the name of nycsubway.org. Should we say SubTalk, or nycsubway.org or railfan group?
We could say that we are a group of patients from the low-functioning ward at Pilgrim State Hospital, out on a day pass.
SubTalk is not a club! It is a place where people from all walks of life who like transit can post their views.
The simplest answer is
We 1) are transit fans
2) are subway fans
3) are railfans
4) like trains
Pick the one that you like the best!
Almost two years of posting here and I come up with that lousy spacing in tht last post. I'm sorry everybody!
Karl, for better spacing you can use the html code <ol> and <li>. Your post can then look like:
SubTalk is not a club! It is a place where people from all walks of life who like transit can post their views.
The simplest answer is we:
are transit fans
are subway fans
are railfans
like trains
Pick the one that you like the best!
Sarge, Your message using html is almost exactly what I was trying to do without it. I experimented with it many months ago, would always make a mistake somewhere, and have a total mess on my hands. I was typing out all tags manually. Since my internet time is so limited I decided to forego it completely.
I'm sure everyone appreciated it!
Good Grief, it worked!
Well, I would immediately point the reporter in the direction of the always astute heypaul who would give them the answer that they would NOT be looking for.
Otherwise, SUBWAYSURF could pose as our "SubTalk spokesman" and explain to the reporter that the group is a monthly outing of Creedmore patients. And at that moment I slowly move away from the group and disappearance up the nearest exit.
BMTman
Then there's always a Gumby-style (Monty Python) response.:-)
You may be on to something - if we tax people who stand in water, the proceeds can be used to pay for transit!
Mark
Yes, and now for something completely different....
:-)
It's....
SubTalk was concieved, preformed and written by...
David Pirmann - Web Site Host
Jersey Mike
heypual
Train Dude
chuchubob
#4 Sea Beach Fred
Pork: The Other White Meat
Bill Newkirk
buddtrainzrule
Its That Flxible Metro
( 1 ) South Ferry ( 9 )
Bill from Maspeth
Pelham Bay Dave
Hank Eisenstein
Jeffrey Rosen
John J Blair
R142 #2
Peter Rosa
Larry,RedbirdR33
BMTman
Karl B
Anon_e_mouse
Steve Hoskins
Chao-Hwa Chen
Steve B-8AVEXP
los angeles rail system (salaamallah)
Spunky of Light Rail Fame
Henry R32 #3730
SubwayRider
subway-buff@mindspring.com
zman179
Animations
David Cole
Web Hosting
David Pirmann - Web Site Host
Producer
David Pirmann - Web Site Host
Director
Normal Distribution
THE
END
LOL!!
And a few others:
Wayne Mr. Slant R-40
#1 Brighton Exp. Bob
Todd Glickman
William A. Padron Mr. R-10
As a matter of fact, they all say that, too, in one of the shows. The one in which every skit begins with, "The BBC would like to apologize for the following announcement."
Here are a few things I noticed during the day:
Misinformed crews:
Some 5 trains had "South Ferry" as the southern destination.
One C/R was told to run light from Chambers to Bowling Green. Revolting passengers and a few track workers set him straight, after which he had a bad attitude with PA announcements from then on.
One T/O and C/R pair thought they had to stop at Rector, Cortland, and South Ferry. When the doors opened at SF the dispatcher screamed into the station PA "#5 Close it down!!!"
Misinformed passengers:
A woman going to Atlantic Ave got off the 5 at Grand Central uptown.
People were waiting at Chambers st. Downtown express platform until a work train backed in, and even then let a few 5s go by until a second work train came and flatcars 0F223 and 0F182 were coupled.
Various other neat things:
Possible to ride the East and West side IRTs from one train.
The MTA has succeeded in creating a one-seat ride from Penn Station to Grand Central.
The R-142(A) were pulled from service about a week ago. Coincidence, I think not! Think of the transfer announcements: "...for the downtown 2, 4, uptown 5, N, and R trains."
Too bad the r-142 is not in service
I would've loved to have heard the computerized announcements develop a bad attitude. Or how it would've reacted to "#5 CLOSE IT DOWN" 8-)
Peace,
ANDEE
What lines currently have the new r-142 trains
As of now, the cars are being tested on the 2 and 6 lines.
3TM
There not running as of now.
As of Sat 10-7-00 5:00pm, the IRT headhouse is in a lot, mounted up at Pacific St and Flatbush Aves. It is not far from the Atlantic Ave. station. It is in front of the Downtown Bklyn bound B41 and B67 bus stop.
3Train#2098Mike
Let's hope it does not go the way of the Borgadus Building.
What is that?
The Borgadus Building was a landmarked cast iron building. A developer promised to remove it and reassemble it at another location, if the City would permit him to put another building on the site. The building's cast iron panels were disassembled and stored in a parking lot near the construction.
Drug addicts allegedly stole the panels and sold them to scrap dealers. The astonished chair of the City Landmarks Commission was quoted in the NY Times as saying: "They've stolen my building!..."
Where was this and when was it?
During the 1990's I remember seeing a disassembled cast iron building stored in a lot under the Brooklyn side of the Manhattan bridge, along Plymouth Street.
Hey Mike, this past Thursday I walked from Downtown Brooklyn to the Library at Grand Army Plaza. On my way up Flatbush, I passed Atlantic Avenue where I saw the now vacant triangle @ Atlantic, Flatbush and 4th Avenues. As was previously reported, the historic IRT kiosk is now in a NYCT lot (usually reserved for maintenance vehicles) on a triangled block almost across from it's original location.
The condition of the headhouse/kiosk is bizarre: it appears that the bottom 4 or 5 feet of the structure is actually MISSING (or dismantled and moved elsewhere). Only the top 6 or 7 feet is in the lot and resting on steel support beams (that were probably used in the delicate move). It has yet to be rested, and it isn't possible to tell if the restoration will be done on that site, or at some other location.
BMTman
I would like to know on why NYCT Operations Planning is changing letters to it's Southern Brooklyn subway lines in 2001 when flip-flop sides accur on the Manhattan Bridge, For instance:
B train is now the W train.
D locals in Brooklyn is now another branch of the Q train.
In addition, what will the car assignment for both of the lines be & will there be rush hour & midday express service along the Astoria line as well.
This is to avoid confusion between two trains in two separate unconnected segments/sections with the same letter.
There is a difference between a weekend and a year or so(try more than that!)
Because they don't want to have a route from 205 St./Bronx to 34/6 via all IND and route from Stillwell/Brighton via the Broadway BMT with both having the same letter designation (D) I think the TA has to do better than having a Q Brighton Exp. to Brighton Beach and a Q Brighton Local to Stillwell tho. This will cause passenger confusion. And the public doesn't know or care about diamond, round, orange or yellow Q's! Same reasoning behind the B.......As for car asssignments, you have been told countless times that this is pending as well as the exact scope of the service plan.
Because they don't want to have a route from 205 St./Bronx to 34/6 via all IND and route from Stillwell/Brighton via the Broadway BMT with both having the same letter designation (D)
Why not call one route the Concourse Exp and the other the Brighton Express. It seems to have worked before 1967. Has the public become more confused or has management?
If a customer is entering the system at 34 St. he/she may not know which platform (6th Ave. or B'way BMT) to get the correct D train. Even knowing uptown or downtown may not help. Don't forget, we are not dealing with knowledgeable SubTalkers who know their way around the system! We're dealing with people who are confused very easily. Even if their train comes in on the local instead of an express track (or vice versa) creates mass confusion.
I would rather the same letters for each half, except yellow and orange (like they did in the 80s). They're already on the rollsigns!
The yellow B's and D's are not on the R-68's (which debuted during the last flip-flop, using the orange D). Since the colors are not apart of speech, I think it's better to have different letters, so when you speak of "the B" or "the D" it is clear you are referring to one line. Having them split like that only makes the system look more disarrayed. (Remember last time, the closure was not supposed to last so long). And suppose the bridge is lost completely during this time, or the work drags on way past the schedule like the other side?
Are you sure? Look at these:
Pic 1
Pic 2
That's the 68A. They're on those except the first 8. It's the R-68 that I said doesn't have them (except for somre replacement signs). If they replace them, they might as well get signs with "T" and "U" and use those.
what happened to the R142's? did another malfunction happen?
why are they not running as we speak?
I thought the testing was complete!!
Can someone tell me what's goin on with the R142's?
my understanding was the kawasaki cars were going into the 207th street shops for some door and brake modifications and would then undergo another 15 day acceptance testing...
my secret belief is that they will be transformed into r-62a's, and immediately operate for at least 45 years of reliable trouble free service...
One can never be too sure what goes on
behind closed garage doors... nor can
one be too certain fellow folks know how
to use the "archive" posts option..
or tune in more often than never..
Either way you look at it, some of us
(self included) never even noticed the
142's were...::gulp::... missing!
...and it's all good.
One can never be too sure what goes on
behind closed garage doors... nor can
one be too certain fellow folks know how
to use the "archive" posts option..
or tune in more often than never..
Either way you look at it, some of us
(self included) never even noticed the
142's were...::gulp::... missing!
..not like there's anything wrong with that!
Well, yeah, but you've never liked the new trains, have you?
- Lyle Goldman
I know that I hate da suckers.
I prefer the R-142(a)s to all redbirds, the only ones I'll miss are 7773, 7821, and that other one with the R22 storm door, and possibly the R36s and 33 singles (blinking lights, and fans for the latter).
When the M-7s come in, expect me to bitch and moan about them just like you are with the 142s, only because they're replacing my ACMUs.
By you, I mean 1 SF 9.
what happened to bombarier's delivery. was it cancelled or something? are they sitting up at 241? whats the deal with that? all i'm seein' is kawasaki(5 sets)
Well last night, on the way home from a dissapointing Yankee game, I saw cars #'s 7211-7215 running non revenue service s/b at 149 st-Grand Concourse.(Probably testing).
There all piled up at east 180th in the bronx!
Are they in the barn? I went up there Sunday and the barn was closed down. All I saw was Redbirds lined up outside.....
3TM
my totally unreliable and unstable sources tell me that the new cars will only operate during the major holidays... they are now being readied for halloween, then thanksgiving, then christmas, chanukah, and kwanza, then heypaul day in january, valentines day,etc... in between holidays, they will systematically rebuild each major system of the cars... currently they are replacing the high pressure air lines which were made of plaster of paris with more sturdy cast iron...
"then heypaul day in january,"
What's this all about?
my birthday... same day as former president nixon...
[my birthday... same day as former president nixon...]
heypaul, I always suspected you were a little on the shady side... :-)
BMTman
If if heypaul's cab could take you into the board room of any majour transit company in the 1920's what advice would you give the owners of the subway or railroad companies so that they could have stayed profitable and/or so that service today would be better. It if given that they would believe you and follow your advice.
In New York, it might have helped to hire the mob to put out a contract on Robert Moses. Seriously, once the appeal and affordablity of automobiles was sold to the masses, transit as a private enterprise was doomed. Add to that government spending on paved highways. The development of the PCC car during the depression and World War II rationing only delayed the inevitable.
Without Robert Moses, it still would have happened.
Robert Moses only built what was believed to be best for the people.
Well I for one thank G-d for Robert Moses every day when I drive to work on the scenic treed curvy parkways instead of the ugly truck infested LIE. I only wish modern day bureaucrats kept Moses' feelings on the parkways alive by not allowing school buses or ANY truck including SUV's, pickups, or windowless vans!!!
>>> what advice would you give the owners of the subway or railroad companies <<<
Cut all but essential maintenance. Use money saved to invest in General Motors stock. Try to sell the subway to the government at a good price before they catch on that it will never be able to continue making a profit.
Tom
Is there anything special planned like a special train running on the S or any other lines for Oct 27?
--Clayton Parker--
Probably not. IRT Contract One opened for business in 1904, not 1900. Wait another four years for the centenary festivities.
Then again, when was the groundbreaking?
I think it was March or May of this year.
I think it was March or May of this year.
I mean the Centennial.
Oct. 27, 2004 falls on Wednesday. One way or another, whether there are any festivities or not, I'm going to be on hand.
In your opinions, what is the fastest way from, say, Grand Central, to Broadway Junction.
That wouldn't be a matter of opinion. It would be a matter of running time and waiting time. The MTA website has timetables for the various lines, including those that pass through Grand Central and Broadway Junction/East New York/Eastern Parkway. Also, one could call NYCT Travel Information at 718-330-1234 and have a representative put the itinerary through the computer and get an answer.
David
That wouldn't be a matter of opinion. It would be a matter of running time and waiting time. The MTA website has timetables for the various lines, including those that pass through Grand Central and Broadway Junction/East New York/Eastern Parkway.
I dare you to use the published schedules. The possible choices are:
4,5,6 --> L; 4,5,6-->J or 4,5-->A,C.
The 4,5 and 6 schedules show published times for Grand Central but NOT for Union Square or Fulton St. How is somebody supposed to evaluate the options for changing to the "L" at Union Sq or the A or C at Fulton St?
The "A" schedules show in 2 separate bochures show the departure times form Bway-Nassau and the arrival times at Bway-ENY. The "C" schedule shows neither Bway-Nassau nor Bway-ENY.
The "J" schedules show the times for both Chambers and Eastern Pkwy.
The "L" schedules show the times for both Union Sq and Bway-Jct.
The only routing for which travel time can be documented is 4,5,6-->J because it is the only route that states the 4 relevant stations: Grand Central, both transfer stations and the arrival station.
It would be nice, if the published schedules contained a table of running times between all stations on the route as required by state law. Until NYCT distributes sufficiently detailed schedules, estimating the least time consuming route between these two stations remains a matter of opinion. And inasmuch as the dispatchers have been shown to routinely falsify arrival times.....
The running time tables were used until 1997.
Why'd they get rid of them? I still have a few for the F, R, and E.
Probably the 4/5 to the L. That seems to be the most direct way. Second would be the A (express in Brooklyn), but with the L, you start heading east much sooner than going downtown. The J at Fulton would definitely be the slowest, because you have to go too far downtown to get it, and then actually backtrack to Delancey St. Plus, the bridge trip is slower than the tunnels.
Lexington Av South from Grand Central to 36th Street. E/B on 36th onto the Queens Midtown Tunnel then E/B on the LIE to the Grand Central Parkway. S/B on the GCP to the Interbo Jackie Robinson Pkway, W/b on the JRP to exit 1-Bushwick Av. Take Bushwick to Conway St, left on Conway to Broadway, left on Bway to the station at Van Sinderin.
With your lights flashing and siren wailing.
IRT Lexington Av Exp to Atlantic Av. LIRR from Atlantic 2 stops to East NY. Short 2 block walk to Bway Junction. (Or "L" train one stop from Atlantic to Bway Junction)
The fastest way would be the 4,5 to the L at Union Sq.
4,5 running time from 42 to 14---> 3 mins.
L running time from Union Sq. to Bway Jct.---> 22 mins.
Going to Fulton St. to transfer to the A would increase running time by 5 minutes.
I notice that there is a copy of this book on Ebay currently, and with a day to go in the auction, the bid is already up to $100.00.
The description indicates that the book was only published three years ago and is already out-of-print.
The book was recommended to me more than a year ago by several posters here, and I have been watching for it since with no luck till I saw this listing.
Is this three-year-old book that wonderful that it should command a bid that high? Older out-of-print subway books don't seem to bring prices like that!
Save your money! The book is really a re-hash of previously published information. In fact, the author lifts verse verbatum from Ed Davis' "They Moved the Millions" without so much as a hint of credit! Some nice line drawings (from the TA's Mechanical Department charts) but the photos, which were digitally manipulated to fit the available space between the printed text are, in some cases, horribly distorted (ever see an 80' long R-29?). This is an "official" book with the TA's imprimatur on it, so I suppose it is "collectible" from that point of view, but as a serious reference work it falls a bit short.
Thanks so much for the response! At the current bid price it went out of my reach way back anyway.
An 80' long R-29, that must look terrible!
A friend sent me a photocopy of one of those line drawings, and that is what fascinated me about the book in the first place. He lives several hundred miles away so I have never seen the actual book.
I'll not feel bad about not being able to bid on it!
There has been much written the past two weeks about those of us who live outside the state of New York, and a few have questioned whether we should give imput on things that are strictly for New York. But it was impression that many of us on Subtalk are former New Yorkers who fell in love with the New York Subway as kids, or grew to love it as visitors to the city. Has Dave or any of the people on this website ever taken a poll as to the percentage of us who are New Yorkers and those who aren't? I'll bet there are a lot of us who aren't. Might be worth a survey by some group on this site. BTW, the Mets just beat the Giants 4-0. One series down and two to go.
i do agree with the poster the 90s are over!! ( braves sign )!!!!
I do not miss that awful tomahalk choop good riddance!! maybe it will be the battle of oakland vs the mets?? or yankees ?? the cards arte not pushovers either!! maybe the #4 & the #7 trains will see world series duty !!final farewell to the redbirds & a subway series !!
i am a temporary resident if cali my home is nyc !!
I've never lived in New York City, contrary to what a lot of people think. It was in 1967-68, right after we moved to New Jersey, that I became immersed in the subway system. The love affair is still going strong.
Howdy! I moved from NYC 24 years ago after living there for 17 years, but my Subway experiences are like they were from the other day. I visited NYC in March with my family. Riding the subways again was second nature to me. I got to introduce my son to the rainfan window on an R32 C train going up CPW. I was disappointed to see how much slower the express trains were running from what I remembered, but still I tried to ride on as many lines I could during my four days there.
I want to see a subway series at least once in my lifetime. My Dad would tell me stories about them from the 40's and 50's.
Regards,
Jose
Dallas, TX
Well Jose, let me tell you of one. 44 years ago today, the Brooklyn Dodgers won their last World Series game. They defeated the Yankees 1-0 in ten innings on Jackie Robinson's last his as a Dodger. Clem Labine beat Bob Turley is a great pitcher's duel. No I didn't look it up. I have a great memory.
And the day before, Don Larson pitched a perfect game. Bobby Jones came mighty close to duplicating that on Sunday, retiring the Giants in order in eight out of nine innings. Not too shabby.
I have a copy of Sports Illustrated from 1985, with an article by George Piimpton on a potential Subway Series. It has photos of Plimpton on the 7 and standing by a white 4 or 5 train at Grand Central. There is also a photo of fans heading for the BMT after a game at Ebbets Field during the last Subway Series.
And 44 years ago today Steve (and others), the Yankees behind Johnny Kuck's three hitter blasted the Dodgers 9-0 to win it for the Bronxites. That was the last Subway Series game to this day, but, maybe, that string will end.
>>> <"I>That was the last Subway Series game to this day, <<<
The true classic Subway Series was between the Bronx and Brooklyn, in the days when most of the games were played in daylight, and employees in New York regularly missed work to attend "funerals". Alas, I doubt that any of us will ever see another.
Tom
(I want to see a subway series at least once in my lifetime.)
The odds of a subway series at the start of the year are less than one percent. It's up to 25 percent now. It can happen. We've never had a subway series, but we have had an all Missouri Series and a Bay Area series in my lifetime.
Then again, the Bay Area series didn't turn out so well. I hope we don't have a hurricane, blackout and riot, transit strike, or other New York equivalent of an earthquake during any prospective subway series.
I was born a month after the last Subway Series, so there hasn't been one during my lifetime either - almost.
but we have had an all Missouri Series
Cool name for that: Show Me Series.
IIRC the St. Louis-Kansas City series was called the Amtrak Series since Amtrak ran special trains from the visitors' city to the host.
IIRC the St. Louis-Kansas City series was called the Amtrak Series since Amtrak ran special trains from the visitors' city to the host.
It also was called the Interstate 70 Series.
And that was a wierd series. The Cards won the first two in Kansas City, and then the Royals went to St. Louis and made a great comeback to eventually win it all. Poor Dick Howser, he soon passed away and had little time to enjoy his great triumph. That has always left me sad.
* very happy with the BRAVES being kicked out by the cardinals!! what happened to live organ music players in ballparks these days ??
I would like to see posters about other rail systems besides nyc!
http://photos.yahoo.com/asiaticcommunications
* very happy with the BRAVES being kicked out by the cardinals!! what happened to live organ music players in ballparks these days ??
I would like to see posters about other rail systems besides nyc! .
http://photos.yahoo.com/asiaticcommunications
I love cardinals (birds) but the Mets will stop St. Louis, only to be CRUSHED by the BEST TEAM ***FOR*** ALL TIME, the >>>AWESOME<<< YANKEES!
Well, Shea Stadium has an organ once again. Nothing like the original Thomas Organ Jane Jarvis used to play, mind you, but it's still not bad. They do play a "Charge" recording at each game made on the Thomas before Frank Cashen had it removed.
The Yankees are leading the Atheletics 6:0 before Andy Pettitte gets on the mound! Unbelievable!
The Mets are in the NLCS and the Yankess are on the verge of hosting Seattle Mariners. Keep our Subway Series dream alive!
Chaohwa
Say what you want about the Yankees cuz they have been slumping...but this team held on and advanced to the ALCS. I was happy to see the bullpen do so well, especially on the 44th anniversary of Don Larsen's perfect game in the world series. BTW, the last subway series was also 44 years ago. It should be a good series with Seattle. The Yankees have two advantages: Home field, and one of Seattle's best starters is injured for the rest of the season.
My congrats to the Mets. I'm glad that they are playing the cardinals instead of the Braves. While St. Louis certainly has a good team, the mets have a better chance to defeat them then Mr. Turner's team.
Watch out....the #4 will be packed Tuesday and Wednesday night...and the #7 will be as well Saturday, Sunday and possibly next monday as well.
Lets make this dream a reality!!! -Nick
Observations from Jamaica station, track 8:
Yesterday, the 7:29 PM Speonk train had 2 DM engines, and 3 passenger cars! The 2 engines were in diesel mode! To top that off, the last passenger car was a cab car, so the rear engine could have been taken off and there would have been no problems whatsoever!
Today, the 5:38 Oyster Bay had a DM in diesel mode as well. What about the oil shortage!
What about the oil shortage!
They're doing their share!
Modern locomotives get about 150 miles to the gallon*
*Per ton of payload.
ROFL
Elias
Modern locomotives get about 150 miles to the gallon*
*Per ton of payload.
Oh Brother! I think your math is awry. A locomotive pulling a 1000 ton payload would get 150,000 miles/gallon?
No. If it's pulling a 1000 ton payload then it's getting .15 mpg in absolute terms.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Looks like my math was awry. Perhaps 150 ton-miles per gallon would be an accurate figure.
Yes, that would be the correct way of putting it. For passenger service, a more useful figure would be passenger miles per gallon, since a train carrying 100 passengers at 5 mpg would be less efficient than one carrying 200 passengers at 4 mpg.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
While It may look rediculous with 2 engines, and 3 cars, (one being a cab-control car) it sometimes is neccessary. The cab car may be experiencing a ASC failiure, so to save time, and not fix things properly they throw on another engine on the west end. The cab cars are even less reliable than those shoeboxes(DE30's).
Possible senario: Maybe they have a bad ordered engine on one of the layups at Speonk and the extra engine will be cut off that train upon arrival at Speonk and put on to power the train with the defective engine towed back to Queens Monday morning on a regularly scheduled train. Just trying not to waste money!
I'm sure what Bill from Maspeth says is probably THE correct answer to the situation.
Many times on the weekends, LIRR will pull an engine in from Speonk to do its regularly scheduled inspection, or fix some b.o. item. And, that train out in Speonk would need an engine to get going come Monday morning.
I can remember in the late 1960's, they'd send the extra engine back out on the train that left Jamaica at 12:12 a.m. on a Monday morning. That particular train had three ping-pong coaches. Believe me, with a pair of the Alco Century 420's pulling three cars (usually two of which were in use and one empty), the train took off like a rocket! You quickly learned where those cars got their "ping-pong" name from!!!
Sometimes a cab car is included because it has a working restroom.
-- Kirk
Both other cars had working restrooms, one was a bar car. Though, I think Bill from Maspeth has the most plausible reason.
What oil shortage? You mean the one artificially induced by the automobile manufacturers? The one that congress wrongly blames on OPEC?
-Hank
Amtrak rules for LIRR require two DM engines when operating into Penn. Amtrak operates Penn Station and NJT/LIRR are subject to their rules.
So if this train was going into Penn even with a cab car they have to slap another DM on the other end.
The train arrived in Jamaica around 2:10 PM today, same exact consist. It must have been a faulty cab car (though they have extra in that yard near Jamaica, why would they pull out another DM?)
I was at the Shoreline Trolley Museum this Saturday for their "Autumn in New York" event. Many other sub-talkers were there also. The Shoreline people including Doug,Thurston and Stef among others did a fine job and made it an excellent day. The weather cooperated and it was a beautiful clear Autumn day. Four trolley cars were in service; Brooklyn Rapid Transit # 4573, Third Avenue Railway # 629 and Union Railway # 316. Of course the pride of the fleet BMT #1001 came out and made several runs.
The rapid transit cars were well represented also. IRT Lo-V 5466 and IND R-9 1689 ran together and IRT R-17 6688 and BRT BU 1227 also ran.
The best was kept until the last trip when Deckroof Hi-V 3662 came out to run in a three car train with 1689 and 5466. It was a real treat to ride on of the last of the great IRT patriarchs.
If you didn't go this year try to make it next time. Its worth the trip.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Yeah, Larry it was a GREAT day for SubTalkers at Branford this weekend.
On Saturday we were graced will the presence of another SubTalker of note, Paul Matus and his family. It was good to see him again. Larry, perhaps you and Paul will get the chance to run into each other at a future Branford event.
The weather was perfect for the cars (but alittle brisk for the people). The R-9 performs much better in cooler temperatures, so we were not disappointed when it went down the line in two different configurations: first MU'd to the Low-V and then later in the day it was sandwiched by the High-V and the Low-V for a "triplex" consist.
Next time I hope we'll have an even greater turn-out of our railfan brethrn.
BMTman
It was my first time at Branford in about 30 years, give or take. It was great to see Doug again, and SubwaySurf and Thurston. I missed most everyone else, not getting there 'till 3 o'clock.
My favorite thing of the outing was riding Brooklyn 4573 from the parking lot to what used to (?) be called "Bera Brae." As I remarked to Doug, Brooklyn trolleys were not always pretty, but the 4500's were. 4573 is a delight to the ear as well, from compressor sound to wheel squeal.
I amused my kids by letting them know what an old man I am, that the 4500's were still running when I was born, though I enever saw or rode one in service (AFAIK).
The kids loved the static exhibits and climbing on different cars to get their pictures taken. Unfortunately, they got tired and cranky (they're 8 and 10 and it was a long trip) so I didn't stay as long as I would have liked.
Speaking of the trip, we took the PJ-Bridgeport ferry (expensive, but saves a lot of wear and tear). I left 1:30 hours for the 45 minute trip from Babylon to PJ but came close to not making it. But we did make it--I wish the MTA could run the system like the Ferry company runs those ferries. Basically, they allow their ferries a 15-minute turnaround in port. That is, the 11:30 Bridgeport ferry arrives PJ at 12:45. They managed to unload the boat (cars and passengers) and reload it in 15 minutes. Promptly at 1 o'clock, we were heading out of harbor.
We took the 5:30 Bridgeport back and, amazingly, they were still running within 5 minutes of on time.
Thanks to Doug, JJ, Lou Shavell, Jeff, and everyone else that made the day great for my friend Al S. (who drove 1227) and myself (who drove 6688).
I had a BLAST!!!!!!
Sorry that they didn't let Doug do his Anthony Luciano impression.
You may be sorry, but I am really glad!
Heypaul could be seen lurking around the R-9, but there were no reenactments of the infamous Malbone Street Wreck.
-Stef
Darn! I was hoping that heypaul would have spent all of his time taking pictures of 1227!
karl... i took about 6 shots of 1227, but they were all from the ground... i took a couple of shots of the trucks and several of the gates... i left early in the day, as i had to deliver a lecture over at yale medical school on the prognosis for long term behavioral change in the middle aged railfan...
i was indeed lurking by the r-9 compressor, when the car was off on the siding... i got some compressor sounds on ground level right by the air compressor... it shut off, and i waited about 15 minutes, listening to it pant every 10 seconds... the panting increased in length, and i was expecting the compressor to kick on... it didn't... while i was waiting, the low v's compressor came on at least 6 times...
doug took some shots of 1227 later in the day when they ran it... he told me that he would scan them and e-mail them to you...
Those pictures of 1227 sound great, I really appreciate it. I'm sorry that the R-9 compressor was not more responsive while you were there.
I did not have much time to think about what I was missing at Branford as I was busy trying to sell bus seats. The GAF is sponsoring a weekend trip to Niagara Falls as a fund raiser and I get a free seat if I can sell out the bus! I hope that the Yale lecture went well. When you do these lectures do you use your cab as a podium?
From behalf of the Branford Crew, I thank all who came to the event and showed their support for the collection. It's a great hope that all will come again.
I had a busy Sunday. In rags, under the direction of 6688's regular operator, who is Lou Shavell, I attempted to troubleshoot a persistent door problem which wouldn't go away. So in I ran to the shop, got a cup of grease, and lubed the door joints up on one pair. The doors still need adjustment, but they're better than they were before. Then came the request from J.J. the dispatcher. He needed a conductor on the PCC and I graciously accepted. Someone's ears were ringing when I said I had a uniform to put on which I did. In exchange for my duties aboard the PCC I got to greet the passengers, punch tickets, and meet a large RABBIT who came aboard. Who was this rabbit? I have no clue. His first name wasn't BUGS, that's for sure.
Anyway to make a long story short, I went down the line operating the PCC which was totally unexpected. 1001 gives 6688 a run for her money. They are the two fastest cars on the property.
Wrapping it up, I was dispatched to bring 6688 up to the platform for service to Short Beach. The car was turned over to the regular operator who went on his way. I finished up the day by putting 6688 to sleep which was in the shop once again. Well, playtime's over, and it's back to work on the car!
-Stef
P.S. Anyone get pics of the 3 car Hi-Lo-R-9 train? It was a classic moment.
10/10/2000
Operating the R-9 (#1689) from Quarry to Short Beach under Jeff H.'s guidance was a thrill to me. A first for me.
However, riding on the rear platform of #1227 with BMTman was a treat indeed. That car for 96 years of age moves and sounds very nice. But the most memorable part was closing when it got dark. Something the average person doesn't see at Branford since everything happens in daylight. The sight of #1227 in the dark with the interior lights and marker on was inspiring. The Brooklyn PCC #1001 with it's interior lights and front sign lit up was something I've never seen before. But the sight of the R-9 in total darkness with just the rear signs and markers lit brings goosebumps as I type this.
Bill "Newkirk"
I believe it. I've gotten to ride 6688 on a cold December Night with nothing more than battery lights. Even I have to agree it was interesting to see 1227 in the dark. As I was walking toward Sprague and was watching 1227 pass me, I started scratching my head as the car continued on the Mainline past the loop. I thought the car was going over the trestle. But to no avail! It stopped short of the trestle which takes you to the main station. For those who don't know, the trestle which links the Station in East Haven with the rest of the line in Branford, has weight restrictions imposed, so seeing an RT Car over the trestle is unlikely.
-Stef
I'm almost positive they took 1689 across that trestle after hours in 1980 once, when the crew was on their way to a members meeting in Sprague. I hung around after closing on the day of the Trolley Festival, even rode on 1689 during a run-by, and watched it rumble towards Sprague as I headed out to my car. I think they may have granted me preferential treatment that day because I bought my sign box earlier.
The trestle was re-decked in 1991. At the time we had a structural
evaluation done and we were advised that the conservative load
limits would preclude regular operation of heavy equipment across
the span. Thus there is a standing operations policy that RT cars
are not permitted over that trestle. 1227 is fairly light but has
a high axle loading because of the two huge Westinghouse 50L motors
on the motor truck. 1689 is pretty heavy.
I see. Yes, 1689 tips the scales at 41-42 tons. I'd say the honor of the heaviest car at the museum would be a tossup between 2775, SIRT 388, and North Shore 709.
When Money Car G comes back, I guess that will be the next time RT equipment is over into "East Haven" (or mayhap an R33 delivered hehehehehehe).....
Maybe they could send over one of 1689's sister units. I'd even settle for 1575. At least it can m. u. with 1689.
The heaviest car is South Brooklyn electric locomotive #4,
followed by North Shore 709, followed by
Cornwal/ ex-Utah & Idaho Central Baldwin-Westinghouse
locomotive #12, then Montreal steeplecab 5002, then
2775 and 388.
jeff... if you include all the cars up at branford last weekend, i think doug's chrysler 300 was the heaviest car ...
For me too the "members only" after hours moves are a great joy. The sights & sounds of the cars moving about the line at night is a delight. There were many of these moments for those members who were there both days.
Saturday I was in my dungaree all day. The day started early as several of us had to clean up the R-17. Just before she went into service another SubTalker, Patrick Jones, gave her floor a good mopping. Sunday Lou from Brooklyn & I were asked to put on uniforms to operate some trolley runs. Then at the end of the day I changed back just in time to help Stef & the BMTman put the R-17 back in the shop.
It was great to get to say hello to so many SubTalkers, I only regret that I didn't have more time to talk with each of you. A busy couple of days that ended all too soon !
Mr t__:^)
I was one of the passengers on 1227 on the last run to Sprague. It was fun climbing down and jumping off of it at the trestle.
I agree Bill. The night running of the cars is something alot of the members enjoy as it gives the line a whole different feel. Very moody and yet exciting as turns and other ROW features are harder to make out, making a trip to Short Beach just a bit "spicier".
It was good running into you again, Bill. And certainly it good to see a "rare appearance" of our fellow SubTalker, Far Rockaway A-Train, up at Branford.
BTW, Thurston, and I left around 8:30 just after taking turns at piloting the PCC down to Short Beach and back. We last saw most of you guys on board 1227 at the high level platform as it was being prepared for a run to Short Beach. I'm curious -- what time did you leave, and did you give a lift to Far Rock?
BMTman
I agree Bill. The night running of the cars is something alot of the members enjoy as it gives the line a whole different feel. Very moody and yet exciting as turns and other ROW features are harder to make out, making a trip to Short Beach just a bit "spicier".
It was good running into you again, Bill. And certainly it good to see a "rare appearance" of our fellow SubTalker, Far Rockaway A-Train, up at Branford.
BTW, Thurston, and I left around 8:30 just after taking turns at piloting the PCC down to Short Beach and back. We last saw most of you guys on board 1227 at the high level platform as it was being prepared for a run to Short Beach. I'm curious -- what time did you leave, and did you give a lift to Far Rock?
BMTman
Your description of 1227 in the dark sort of gave me goose bumps too. As you know 1227 is the car that would be the first on my list to see if I were to ever get to Branford!
I have a question on the BU's, and wonder if anyone would know the answer. If I recall correctly the electrical panel on the cars use the old fashioned knife switches. Is it possible that the marker lights and the two platform lights on a given end of a BU are connected to a DPST type switch, indicating that they both can't be illuminated at the same time?
I recall rare instances when the BU's were still in service, that a train would go by with the marker lights dark on the rear of the last car, but the platform lights would be lit(the platform lights are normally dark on the front & rear of a train because the marker lights are lit).
This is a question that I have wondered about for almost fifty years. The more I think about this I wonder if Jeff H may be the only one who might know the answer.
I'll have to look at the knife switch panel to be sure, but
I think you are correct. Either the two marker lights or the two
platform light bulbs are selected by an SPDT knife switch and
the selected pair completes the 5 bulb circuit with 3 interior lights.
Thanks so much Jeff! It has been a question that has been bothering me for many years. I should have asked you long ago.
Sorry about the DPST, I always have problems with DPST & SPDT.
Is 1227 visible on a regular weekend, or can it only be seen on one of the special New York weekends?
It is stored in one of the non-public barns. With an advance
appointment it can be shown.
I was afraid that you were going to say that!
Yah Stef, showing up Sunday morning, old Sparky made me change from shop get up (tee shirt and jeans) into uniform to play conductor on PCC 1001. Trade off did get me "handle" (hey what handles?) on 1001 when we made non revenue moves. My first time ever running 1001 and it was KEWL!! (think I have a new fav trolley, sorry 629)...
Since I had to leave 1pm to make it home before Sunset, you were drafted.
Non revenue? Sparky put me in the driver's seat with passengers on board!
-Stef
Here's a thought: if you were to race 1001 and 6688, which one would win?
I hate to say it, but it appears that 1001 is actually faster than 6688. Somebody at BERA may dispute this, but this appears to be the case. 1001 accelerates at a faster rate.
-Stef
BUT 1001 has the 42mph max governor on her and I am sure Lou S. would swear he had 6688 up to 45mph during a certain night running we both made last year.
Lou, there's no governor. 1001 has a theoretical balancing speed
of 45 MPH and 6688 50 MPH. On Branford's line, 1001 is faster
because it accelerates at 4.0 MPH/sec while 6688 runs up at 2.5.
1001 reaches balancing speed on the short (~1500 ft) straightaways
but 6688 needs a little more room.
I sit corrected... We are just overjoyed with getting foot pedal time on 1001 >G<
I think because of the padded seats on 1001 and the fact that she's lower to the ground, she may not beat 6688 but the ride will be much smoother for the passengers.
The speed would depend on where I could start out from. There is more power in the line as you get closer to Sprague, and there have been a couple of times when I was able to start out near the trestle. At that point, the acceleration was equal to what you would experience at the TA. For reasons of safety, we can't run full out from there. However, we will find out next year. About a year ago, the Branford police department was going to lend me one of their old radar guns. I was going to check the speed on all the cars. Next year we will.
That's the great thing about Shoreline, i.e. the track is kept in good shape and there are a couple of nice streight pieces where we can safely let the cars have all they'll take. Maybe they don't get up to their max. speed, but it's enough to make it an enjoyable ride. Then the curves, switches and dead end test your skills as an operator. I try my best to offer the other folks on board a smooth ride, so if I dump anyone on the floor I'm proud of myself.
Mr t__:^)
I wish I could be there when you do use the radar gun, especially with 1689. It would be interesting to see what speed equates to which gear pitch; for example, whether E above middle C equates to 30 mph.
Those PCCs were famous for their get-up-and-go, that's for sure.
How about 6688 vs 1689? I'd be willing to bet 6688 would win.
Steve, I'd put my money on the faster "horse" too, 6688.
BMTman
Yeah, especially after hearing it can still take off like a bullet.
The rabbit had a vest on that said "Rapid T. Rabbit." He interviewed one of the "conductors" around 4:00 on Sunday, and it was videotaped. Perhaps a new Saturday morning version of Transit Transit news?? I think a Chinese man I saw at Sprague station a little later was Rapid sans bunny suit. I have to admit, that was one of the most bizarre sights of the day...
When 1227 is operated, is it operated by itself, or is it chained up to another car?
Hi, Karl.
The gate car runs solo as it is in a class by itself, so to speak.
I think I disappointed a number of railfans when I was wrestled from the controls of 1227 after the car's caretakers, Jeff H. and Steve Kann got wind of my plans for a "Malbone Street re-enactment".
I will certainly send you a download of one of my 1227 shots when they're developed.
BMTman
Sounds like I had better get my printer tuned up!
Thank You!
10/10/2000
#1227 usually runs MU with Car "G". But since "G" is on loan at the NY Transit Museum in Court St, #1227 runs solo.
Bill "Newkirk"
Yeah! If only we could get 824 out the door, I'd be happy. Too bad she's not in better shape. I'm sure the Master Mechanic could get another Manhattan El Car to couple with 1227.
-Stef
Don't forget that you have 659, 1349 & 1362 up there too!
Of course! And don't forget Kings County Trailer 197 and BRT Instruction Car 999, a true oddball at best.
-Stef
I had completely forgotten about 197, but I guess it is because it is a trailer. I formed the opinion as a kid years ago that a trailer was only half a car because it needed a powered mate to go anywhere.
Trailers serve their purpose. After all, the oldest trailers dated from the steam era, and 197 was at least 60 years old when she was retired. What about other steam coaches? They were rebuilt and made the center car of the C-Types. The center car always looked odd because it was higher than the two outer cars. Didn't numerours trailers and 700 series cars have the highest clestory roofs, maxing out at 13'?
-Stef
I rode numerous trailers on the Lex and the Myrt in the 1940's but they were all in the 200 series, I think that the lower numbers were retired before then. The power for their lights was supplied by a jumper cable connected just under the roof on the end platform to a motorized car that it was coupled to. The interior of the trailers seemed to be in fine condition. The external wood looked like weathered unpainted wood, similar to the way an unpainted barn would look. This was at a time when NYCTS was painting the brown colored BU's green. I have no record of them ever painting a 200, perhaps their days were numbered then and NYCTS knew it.
Isn't this Friday the 50th anniversary of the last run on the Lex?
Congratulations Steve! You remembered. It was 50 years ago this coming Friday, and it was a Friday in 1950 too!
An unlucky date at that. Friday the 13th and all that.
At least you're able to say you were there.
I believe I seen her mated to the R-17, but solo run with her is a real treat. She just seems to glide down the line, and you just can't beat hanging out on her back porch while she's doing that.
I do like the R-17, as most of you know, but the BU is a very close second.
Mr t__:^)
They can't. Coupling mechanisms are different, plus they aren't compatible. At least the R-9 and Lo-V have trainline braking when they get coupled together. FYI, I put the Lo-V and R-9 Train together on Sunday.
-Stef
The R-9 was a dead unit at one time or another some time ago, and the R-17 was used as a tow motor to get it out of the way.
-Stef
How about when 3662 was added on? Did 1689 do all the pulling and pushing?
To Short Beach: 1689 had an operator pushing behind 3662. 3662 was also an active motor in the lead with a Train Operator in position. They aren't MU'ed which requires an operator in each unit. 5466 was in trailing mode.
On the return to Farm River Rd, 5466 and 1689 were operational with 3662 in trailing position.
-Stef
How are the doors on the IRT oldtimers? IIRC, the end doors on 3662 are manual while 5466 has remote controlled doors.
3662's doors don't work right now, while she is undergoing a slow restoration. 5466's, meanwhile are a little troublesome and will need to be tinkered with.
-Stef
Thurston, 1227 has the old fashioned Van Dorn-type couplers while 6688 is equipped with H2C couplers, so there is no way those two could be MU'd.
I HAVE seen the R-17 push/pull the Mineola, but that was not in an MU situation, just a towing manevour behind the shop on the loop. There was a coupler "adaptor" added to the H2C that allowed 6688 to connect to the Mineola's bar-and-pin coupler system.
BMTman
You would really enjoy it if you could put a pair of BU's together, and then ride one of the platforms between the two cars!
Yes that would be real nice. Shoreline has several wooden elevated cars, maybe they'll let one more of them come out & play OR we can wait for the "G" car to come back, as she's operational.
Mr t__:^)
I finally got my password!
Sunday at SLTM was great; it was nice to connect some faces to the posts I've been reading, even though I've never posted and no one knows who the hell I am ;). Piloting 6688 was a blast. Next year, I'm going for 1227.
I put my digital pictures up on Geocities; if anyone wants to see or use them, go to http://www.geocities.com/sockanosset2/sltm. Unfortunately, they came out rather blurry. The pictures from my "conventional" camera should be much better; I should have those up in a couple weeks. I'm sure I have a couple good shots of the 3-car consist; not too much escaped my lens.
BTW (and sorry to go off topic on my first post), is the owner of the '67 Thunderbird that was in the parking lot on this list?
In your 4573 and 629 in the right corner you can see me (arms across chest) talking to Thurston. Two operators at BERA and Subtalkers.
Though your MBTA Green line PCC looks awfuly like our Trackless Trolley Bus....>G<.
Thanks for the Pix...
OOPS! Thanks for the correction; I just saw "green and streamlined," put 2 and 2 together, and got 11. Any other corrections to my captions would be appreciated, too.
Hey, Mike, good to have you aboard!
And thanks for sharing the pictures!
Hope to see you on some other SubTalk trips.
BMTman
Love the pics, particularly of 6688 leaving the platform. Hey you even got a pic of our work supplies on the platform while 6688 was departing..... Nice Subway Map Shot, it was clear in the reflection where the pic was being taken!
-Stef
The T-bird belonged to one of the members of the Connecticut
T-Bird club which was visiting the museum on a charter that day.
Mike, Nice collections of photos, why not consider doing a write up and submit with photos to Dave as a "Field Trip" report ?
Mr t__:^)
Glad to see 1689 looking so good. I can hear those bull and pinion gears right now.
I just read on BusTalk about T/O's getting robbed while walking on the el structure to Livonia Yard. Is this practice still going on???
3Train#2141Mike
This is on of those apocryphal stories. Everyone has heard the story, but no one actually knows who it was. I find it highly unlikely that such an event ever took place, and even more so douby that it is stilla continuing practice.
I knew a few co-workers who have been robbed there. It definitely has happened. While it may not be a continuing practice, this story is something that has definitely occurred in the past. After all, we are talking about East New York at the height of the crack epidemic.
Wouldn't surprise me if it was. BTW, they still use taxis at Pitkin Yard to get crews back to Euclid without incident.
I must be jinxed cause every time that I ask for a taxi(which is an in progress yard move), there isn't any. So I then have to walk the tracks to Grant Av. Trust me, it's not pleasant.
I've been doing it for a long time, I know. The weeded lot through the basketball court and the long cross over North Conduit is enough for me to wait for a taxi, regardless of time. What you can do is offer to double end a layup back to the station and the yardmaster shouldn't argue the point.
But if it's a female train operator and the YardMaster is a male............you can fill in the blanks!
In the summer of 1997, I worked a Rockaway Park shuttle job on Sunday. It was an early p.m. job that started at Rock Pk and finished at Euclid(The job cleared at Rock Pk) Technically, I either deadhead back or take the train light to Rock Pk. The dispatcher made me lay up the train south of Euclid on those tracks that end with a bumper block. In this case, since I know a switchperson was available, the switchperson is supposed to lay up the train. But guess what,the switchperson was a woman! There's definitely no way the dispatcher would have her go back there.
You are too nice. I would have insisted that she lay the train up if that is actually part of her assignment.
If a woman takes the T/O job then she should do EVERYTHING that the title consists of(and that applies to men too).
One time when I was a conductor our train went into emergency on the structure. A woman was the T/O. She asked me to walk around the train for her as she was very scared of walking the structure. I told her absolutely not, if you are so scared of walking the el then you should have thought about it when you took the job.
To be nice however, I walked right behind her on the structure just in case she freaked out, but I made sure that she walked the el and did whatever she had to do on her own. Most women do the job properly but I do not support any preferential treatment just because of the persons sex.
You would have both been in BIG trouble if that train had gone into emergency a second time being that conductors are not trained to handle equipment walkarounds. As far as walking around another persons train, that is a problem a TSS is for. You are not expected to sacrifice the safety of your passengers to compensate for anyone, whether it is derived from complications due to the ADA act or other examples. Except in an extreme emergency, such as a collision, a fire to the extremes of Clark St, or incident which would place LIVES in jeapoardy, not equipment, but LIVES, I would not secure my passenger train to help another T/O who can not walk around his/her train in a normal circumstance. If you are given a DIRECT ORDER to walk around another train, make it worth the while by working to rule putting 12 handbrakes on your 10 car train. If you are not qualified to do so, state so and put it on the control center's lap.
Hey Mike, are your last initials "M" by chance?
Yes, I did hear about this for the same reasons. I heard that the R10 is used for this. Is this true??
3TM
Why are the express tracks lower at these two IRT stations?
3Train#2104Mike
That's an old IRTism - tracks rose at some stations in order to let gravity help out with the acceleration and deceleration. Most of these instances have since been "flattened." The IRT book available on this site makes mention of this, and I believe that the line-by-line, station-by-station descriptions do as well where applicable.
Mark
i'm doing research on abandoned subway stations, particularly the old city hall station, and wondering if any one knows how to access these stations, whether from an official method or otherwise. i've taken the out of service 6 train numerous times through the loop, but i would like to actually access the station directly not just from inside a train. any suggestions, or personal experiences?
On the Booklyn Bridge platform you take a walkman and start playing that William Tell song as a 6 train passes. The song will give you the appropiate motovation when you dash down the tracks after the train.
I was on a tour of the station in 1993. I was kinda young back then, all I remember was an old ticket booth and stairways leading to pavement, as well as fancy lighting and old mosaics. The NYPD booth was not there. Thanks to Mayor Rudolph Guliani, these tours are no longer allowed (afraid someone will bomb him from underneath).
In theory, if you knew 2 #6 train operators willing to help you, one could drop you off and you could look around and wait for the other to pick you up. The chances of anyone agreeing to that are pretty slim, though.
I once saw a homeless person there, so it is possible to get there somehow (mayhaps an emergency exit?)
Any person on the platform of a closed station without official permission( from Jay Street) is trespassing and subject to arrest by NYPD. A closed station may have hazards not readily visible. A closed subway station is not a playground. Sorry!
The best hope is to become a member of the transit museum. At some point tours might resume(with the next mayor perhaps?) and then you could go on that tour.
I can imagine the headline:
Overzealous railfan caught trespassing in abandoned station
Mayor seeks highest allowable punishment, and was quoted saying "Its people like this who keep me up at night, the only way to prevent these horrible crimes is to discourage the practice of 'railfanning' altogether. The ERA will no longer be allowed to use city property for meetings or otherwise, and the Transit Museum must be shut down. I- I mean the city, must be kept safe at all times!"
Next thing you know, Rudy will bring back caning or flogging as a form of punishment (not that it's all that bad of an idea, IMHO).
Have you spoken to anyone at the A) Transit Museum or B) the TA Public Relations office? If not-- you can't be very serious about your research.... If you have a specific research interest I'm sure that something can be arranged if you deal with the official agencies.
I think you'll find the general wisdom on the net is not to try it on your own...
I think you'll find the general wisdom on the net is not to try it on your own...
Yes! You'll need at least 2 lookouts on the Brooklyn Bridge platform in direct radio contact with yourself. It would also be good to have a scanner tuned to all TA, TP and NYPD frequencies. Best times are 10-11:30 PM and about 5-6AM when its still pretty quiet, but the police aren't looking for late nite antics. Or find out when the shifts change. You'll want to be in and out in the headway interval so bring a stopwatch.
The point is, unless one has permission to do so, it is illegal to be on the platform of the City Hall IRT station. Let's not instruct people as to how to do something that shouldn't be done in the first place.
David
Of course i have contacted various people both employed by the MTA and the tansit museum. I am presently trying to obtain both information and site access under the freedom of information act. Unfortunately, the process may be quite slow as it involves myself, my professesor, the degree project co-ordinator as well as various city officials. Our research presentations are in mid december, and having spent well over a month and a half with little progress other than blurry photographs, and generic technical drawings is more than a little disconcerning. Certainly accessing an abandoned subway station is dangerous, but the mayor of this city in his zealousnous has denined new yorkers access to one of its greatest architectural treasures.
<< I am presently trying to obtain both information and site access under the freedom of information act. >>
LOL!
(69k picture)
Is this on all R46 rollsigns? Why have I never seen this at the front of the train?
The bottom just looks a little dirty to me!
That's the way the N used to be signed on the old R46 bulkhead signs. This time it was a printing boo-boo. A couple of slant R40's have that unusual signage as well.
Maybe a preview of what we see next year.
Enjoy!
TLJ
"Signing Off Indefinately"
www.transitalk.com
I think we just found the definition of a Railfan Frat House. What would this one be?
hey trevor... thanks for posting the pictures... the detail on the second picture was really great... i had seen harry beck's ( i think ) shot of the screen and the writing in the post did not come out... that was a fun afternoon and i am glad you and the other guys came...
No Problem man, I hope we all can do it again soon!
Trevor Logan
www.transitalk.com
The young man in the 1st & 3rd shot is my granson. As you can see he got a lot of "handle time" that afternoon.
Mr t__:^)
'Cinders' (local NRHS newsletter) confirms a rumor this month. Apparently SEPTA is giving up on the acquisition of low-floor LRV's to equip route 13 to allow K cars to 'cascade' to Girard Ave (route 15). The new thought is to extract 19 PCC's from storage, rehab them with AC and lifts, and put them to work on Girard Ave. Just when this will happen is unknown (the schedule may have some urgency as Girard Ave work is underway, with hoped-for completion by late '01 or early '02). It is also unknown whether the best of the PCC bunch, which includes those cars selected for the Chestnut Hill and Center City Loop lines several years ago (and painted in the colors of predecessor companies of SEPTA), will be affected. Time will tell.
SEPTA should have rehabed the PCCs in the first place. Maybe they can also purchase some of the soon-to-be retired Newark PCCs from NJT. Good thing SEPTA still has enough PCCs in storage for at least service on Girard Ave. Still, I would like to see some kind of PCC or light rail service in Center City, considering that Girard Ave goes nowhere near downtown.
The Woodland Shop believes they can retrofit PCC's with A/C and low level lifts at the center door. The lift will be major problem, as a low level lift will require major repostioning of the control cabinets, which also occupy the underfloor area of the carbody at the center doors. We shall see.
As to SEPTA getting the Newark cars, ain't gonna happen. NJT and SF MUNI have signed a letter of intent for the purchase of the majority of NJT's PCC's. MUNI needs them desperately, as traffic on the F-Market-Embarcadero line. Patronage has swelled to the point that the current equipment isn't enough to keep up with the demand. In addition to the Newark cars, MUNI is actually looking at rehabbing some of their cars that have been rotting on the piers for the last fifteen years.
That would be nice. Perhaps the E-Embarcadero line will end up using restored PCCs when it is put in service. The track connections between the F waterfront segment and the Brannan extension aare already there, it's just a matter of equipment...
10/09/2000
[addition to the Newark cars, MUNI is actually looking at rehabbing some of their cars that have been rotting on the piers for the last fifteen years.]
I heard that MUNI judged those rotting PCC's unrebuidable and went after SEPTA for some PCC's for purchase. I bet PATCO (Pittsburgh) would have loved to sell MUNI their PCC's rather then scrapping them!
Bill "Newkirk"
At last count SEPTA had 30-40 PCC's on the property (including the half-dozen or so rehabbed for the Center City loop plus the four or so for Chestnut Hill), so it probably doesn't need to go shopping anywhere else to get them.
If SEPTA plans to rehab the PCC's and install A/C and lifts, then they should not make the same mistake with 2165 (that car was retrofitted with an A/C unit from a fishbowl, but did not work). With the aid of computers, an A/C could be designed for a PCC, or if it's possible, they should find the blueprints for Washington D.C.'s model (since they were the first to successfully air condition a PCC).
DC's air conditioning unit is about 45 years out of date technologically, and the use of R12 refridgerant is no longer allowed.
There are NEW a/c units, made for new-gen transit buses that are much more efficient, eco-minded, and way smaller.
I measured a unit from one of the local charter operators to see if they would fit under the roof cowl of one our ex-Boston cars. They do!
As far as installing a lift in the center doors, again new tech control systems are available for these '47 cars, so the equipment can be relocated/replaced. Alot of work, but a heck of a lot cheaper than a new Bombardier or Duwag car.
Another question is why doesnt SEPTA order T3R's from TATRA? These cars are less than $1mil a copy fully compliant.
I read that CKD Tatra went bankrupt and was bought out by Siemens. I wasn't even sure they still made the T3R. How similar are they to the PCC and how reliable are/were they?
I wasn't even sure they still made the T3R. How similar are they to the PCC and how reliable are/were they?
Very similar and very reliable. Basically, they copied the design (without paying royalties, of course - communism at its finest) and have continued to produce it with only minor changes. The bodies have evolved to meet the needs of the cities where the cars run, but mechanically they're still basically the same.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Close.
The Tatra PCC design was licenced from the Transit Research Corp. without royalties (after the 1st 150 cars)in an effort to make nice with the Eastern block. The 15,000 or so T1/T2/T3 cars built from 1951 until 1983 were virtual mechanical/electrical duplicates of the Westinghouse powered, B3 trucked cars we had here.
There were significant electronic improvements made since the early 80's. The new T3R's were upgraded using the technology learned from the newer models produced by Tatra.
The T3R can come one of two ways, either totally new construction, or as a tradein rebuilt of "your" existing car.
Tatra's made a pretty good product, but their status as a company may not be as sound. I hear that one of the German companies is trying to buy them as a low cost facility to make their own cars for the West and the new East.
Jan, thanks for the clarification. I figured either you or Dan Lawrence would have the exact info.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I ref'd to my copy of Fred Schneiders book. ALOT of interesting stuff was going on in the early '50's to generate income for the TRC.
I ref'd to my copy of Fred Schneiders book. ALOT of interesting stuff was going on in the early '50's to generate income for the TRC.
I've should have said the D.C. design be modified for R134A refrigerant. But do you think that SEPTA should go ahead and use A/C units off of buses? Maybe what I was trying to say is design an A/C system that would work with the PCC, because a bus unit IMHO will not work. It was tried with 2165 back in the '70s and did not work.
Designed for transit use is what they really are. The unit wouldn't mind if it was on a trolley at all, as long as you fed it the right power.
Carrier Transicold is one of the brands out there. So is TransAir.
There were 2 PCC's that SEPTA AC'd in its early days, with (I believe) 2176 being the other. These same cars received push-type doors in place of the center folding doors, and these worked as well as the AC.
I think the AC was not successful since it attempted to use the existing ventilation system on the cars, which was weak at best (some of you may recall the small fans in the ceilings of the '48 cars). PCC's always seemed at best warm and usually downright hot because of the way the intake air came in from the underfloor/body area. I'm sure this didn't help the AC at all.
There was an option from the 1945 spec book for 3 large Westinghouse fans in a long duct mounted on the roof. Made the cars kinda ugly, but they worked enough to allow for sealed windows on cars so equipped.
It wasn't so bad if the standard small fanned cars were moving with the windows open, but stuck in traffic, whew! Much like the pre-a/c subway cars we had here.
As much as I am a fan of the PCC, their parts availability for the wearables just aint what it used to be. Unless - hey anybody want to help me repro parts?
But it was a nice try. 2165, 2176, and 2159 (although they no longer exist), have been nicknamed the "Fishbowl" PCC's due to the fact that they have parts lifted off of Fishbowls, like the A/C, marker lights, center doors, Lighting, seats, and have the armrests replaced with wrinkled aluminum wainscoting. They did look nice.
I recall that at least one of these had carpeting, which to me seemed like overkill. The turn signals also seemed a bit hokey for these cars.
Carpeting?
Yes indeed! It was a sight to see, that is before it got dirty and sad looking.
I was by chance flipping through some old T&M's last night and I saw the color shots featuring those early SEPTA gold/white rebuilds.
I was wondering whose idea was it to "flush mount" the lollypop style turnsignals by putting big dents in the 1/8" steel dash panel right under the belt rail. No kidding!!
That was 2176, one of the "Fishbowl" PCC's. That had carpeting installed. It also featured a sky blue interior paint scheme, wrinkled aluminum wainscoting. It, like 2165, featured center doors off of fishbowls, and like 2165 and 2159, featured fishbowl marker lights, and were in fishbowl colors. All had fishbowl seats (2176 had the cushion variety). Only 2165 had the now-infamous fishbowl A/C unit. I thought SEPTA did a good job on those three cars back then. May 2176 rest in peace.
'Cinders' also reports that almost all of the SEPTA Silverliners have received the window-area red/blue striping. It looks very nice. In casual observations of the rail system every day I had noticed lately that unstriped cars are harder to find. It seems that they will be gone very soon.
They've re-striped the Silverliners but have they given them new interiors? I hope so.
10/09/2000
It takes more time to rehab an interior as opposed to applying a decal to the car's exterior.
Bill "Newkirk"
They should have only striped the rehabbed ones, so they'd be easier to spot. I was surprised to find that the new striped car I took to Philly a while back had the old interior, while the unstriped car on the same train had the new one.
I noticed that a few (at least 2) of the Budd Silverliner II's still
have "PENNSYLVANIA" above the windows. Is SEPTA planning to keep a
couple of Silverliner II's in their Pennsylvania Railroad livery for
railfanning/nostalgia purposes? Why did SEPTA remove the
"PENNSYLVANIA" and "READING COMPANY" from the Silverliner II's to
begin with? They should have just left it alone. I also hope that
SEPTA leaves at least a few of their Silverliners (II's, III's and
IV's) unstriped, so they can retain their original appearance, also
for nostalgia.
I noticed that a few (at least 2) of the Budd Silverliner II's still have "PENNSYLVANIA" above the windows
Most of the Cape May Seashore Lines' Budd cars still have "Pennsylvania Reading Seashore Lines" over their windows.
I head that they had removed the last old Letterboard. Someone spotted a car in the process of removal and it only read "Sylvania" making commuters think they had gotten off in a Marx Brothers film.
I'm curious as to if those old Silverliners are still running their origional, ignitron based propulsion systems. I've seen tthem a few times when I've been in Philly, and it's always cool to see them because they're pretty historical units. I believe they were the first good rectifier MUs made. Of course, the New Haven fans here will dissagree, but the Washboards weren't spectacularly sucessful.
I think the ignitron didn't last past the 70's. The final E-44 units were delivered w/ Silicon diodes and the first 44 were later upgraded while under PRR. I'm not even sure if any units besides the Poineer III units had Hg arc rectifyers. Can anybody confirm the fate of those Pioneer III cars. Last I heard they were stored near Wayne Jct or Jenkintown, depowered on a siding. Those are historic cars.
Actually, the Ignitrons might have lasted past the 70's. they were used as 'voltage valves", they way the modern SCR / Thyristors are used. I believe the Silverliner IIs had sillicon rectifiers in addition to the ignitrons, and I've been told the M-2s were even delivered this way. The Metroliners were split between SCR (Westinghouse) and ignitron (GE). The GE units were more reliable than the Westinghouse ones, I believe. Ignitrons surely lasted beyond the Pioneer cars - the NJ arrows had them too.
As for those Pioneer IIIs (was there a Pioneer I and II?), I know they were running until like 3 or 4 years ago, and I believe they may have been scrapped :( From what i understand they were actually slower in service than the MP-54's, and were manual acceleration, though I'm not sure if that was by design or by a buggy control system.
The E-44s used their ignitrons solely as rectifiers, so converting to solid state was easy. I believe the solid state versions had like 200 or so diodes in them, all in a bank. Probbably not much larger than the tubes they replaced, but certainly louder - the tubes were water cooled but the diodes were air cooled.
Contary to popular belief, tubes didn't suddenly dissapear in the 60's and 70's, in fact radio transmitters even today use them, because they handle power much better than transistors. I really wasn't until the European developed thyristor locomotives came on the scene that the ignitron's days were numbered. I'm not sure who built the first modern continuously variable passenger motor, but I wouldn't be surprised if it was Asea.
I think they were dumped long before 4-5 years ago. I rmember the SEPTA roster at Grand Central in 1995/6 didn't have them listed and the only pic is like from 1985 on the Airport line. They never gave up their Stiensen pantographs. If they were scrapped it is a major historical loss. Those are the first stainless steel, AC/DC MU cars built. Father to the Silverliner, M1/3 and Arrow cars.
At least one II had Reading Company lettering on the 'board until very recently, although I cannot recall the number (I think it was 9017). The Reading never received any III's, but there are 2-3 of them still with Pennsylvania lettering.
Guess what, one of my 2 summer SEPTA pics features a striped Silverliner. Take a look at condor.wesleyan.edu/~mbrotzman/SEPTA_157.jpg
Whatever became of Reading Silverliner IV's 9018-9031. I've noticed they have dissappeared, but at around the same time, 400's showed up. I've almost suspected they have been renumbered, but 9018-9031 were single units, while some of the 400's were married pairs. Any answers are appreciated.
9018-31 are still around although some have been renumbered. The 400's have had the PCB's removed from the transformers and other work done. I think the single units are numbered in the higher parts of the series.
TA buys boat to "inspect bridges" Uh-huh.
ALL ABOARD
Peace,
ANDEE
i think the "bridge inspection thing" is a cover story for the october surprise... because of the unsolvable problems of the r-142a's, the mta has decided to flood the #6 line with five feet of water, and replace heavy rail equipment with hand paddled gondolas similar to venice... think of all the side benefits... want a cheap date on saturday night?.. take a ride on the #6 line...
10/09/2000
[the mta has decided to flood the #6 line with five feet of water, and replace heavy rail equipment with hand paddled gondolas similar to venice...]
Watch the oars ?
Bill "Newkirk"
Yeah, Andee, I've heard about that.
I think they're kept dry-docked in the Whitestone area of Queens??
BMTman
The boat is kept at the Crosstown depot, in Greenpoint.
10/09/2000
THE RETURN OF McHALES's NAVY !!!
Bill "Newkirk"
This seems to be old news. Same story that appeared about three months ago.
And the same sort of responses from other posters in here.
Actually, purchasing a boat makes a lot of sense if the TA DOES have bridges to inspect. What would they do, for example, if something happened at o'dark thirty in the morning on one of the Rockaway line bridges -- it would take a bit of time to charter a boat for such emergencies, yet if they had their own boat it would be a matter of minutes (if it was logically stationed in Jamaica Bay) to get one of their people out there if a problem occured on the underside of one of the bridges.
Yeah- I can see it now: MTA Staten Island Ferry-- For $5 ride the train to the train. LOL: ride the SIR to a new ramp at St. george, onto the new train boat and onto the subway system and 39 st yard in Brooklyn, Dramamine extra!
This is St. George, next stop 9th Avenue Brooklyn. Transfers available for the B train.
JUST KIDDING!
The MTH Web site now has the 2001 catalog on line at www.mth-railking.com and in the Premier line they are showing item # 20-2283-1 R-32 4-car MTA subway set in O-Scale that will run on 042 track. This will be a N Train with marker lights, and Protosound 2.0 .See this item for full description of features. Looks and sounds great from the picture.Just hope it produced the correct way.
Have Fun
Ron J.
As we speak , I'm reading about LIONEL having Two new versions of the MU Commuter cars, They'll be New Haven and Reading. Two car sets , Item # 18328 and 18331. MSRP $569.95 .
Does any one know if these are re-runs of the LIONEL PENN and Lackawanna MU's of 1992-93 fame? Has any one seen them in a catologue?
avid
Once again, MTH is working closely with the New York City Model Transit Association to assure that these are as accurate models that can be produced within the constraint of mass-produced toy trains. These will be FULL SCALE LENGTH, and will be part of MTH's "Premier Line". Also, please don not forget that MTH will soon release the "Railking" R-21's in accurate "Redbird" paint scheme. Although "Railking", these too will be full scale length models!
Reserve your's now if you haven't already!!
This R-32 issue needs 042 radius track instead of 031 per a previous post.
Is this because of the 60' scale length?
At the present time, MTH is stating that O-42 is the minimum radius for these cars. Certainly, they will negotiate that with no problems. They MAY be able to get around an O-31 curve (like MTH's Superliners which, although are stated as O-42 minimum, will negotiate an O-31 - as they do in MTH's starter sets). As the design process proceeds, the actual minimum radius for these cars will be determined. Keep in mind that the prototype was designed for 125' minimum radius, which would be 0-63 in O scale. Since similar length O Gauge models usually can go around an O-31 curve, I suspect that these will too, although the various end hardware (pantograph gates etc.) may pose problems on that tight radius. If you can, plan on O-42 to be safe.
Unfortunately I had to go with 0-31 years ago when I built the layout, mainly due to space restrictions. If they are to be to 60' scale they would not look very good trying to negotiate 0-31 anyway, because of the overhang. Thanks for all of the information though!
The wide radius is certainly a disappointment to me. Although I have ample room on my layout, I did use O-31 in 3 places on the subway segment. I hope that MTH will compromise the designe a bit to accommodate the tighteer radius.
Since these cars are to be part of the "Premier Line", I don't think that MTH wants to compromise scale fidelity to achieve the tighter radius capability. It's still awfully early in the process though, so who knows what will develop before the models are shipped! I don't think that truck swing will be an issue, so the cars will probably be able to take the O-31 turns, but the end hardware may present clearance problems. If that turns out to be the case, the individual modeler could easily make the needed modifications. Minimum radius specs are generally on the conservative side anyway, so lets wait and see what can be done! In the meantime, how about posting some pics of that subway layout on the "Modeling the New York City Subway" website??!! See the Transfer Station of this website for the URL. Happy modeling!
Also because they will be to scale and produced under the MTH "Premier Line" we can expect a four-car set to be somewhere closer to $500 or thereabouts (w/Protosounds).
BMTman
Catalog price is $449.95 with proto-sound. The catalog shows only a drawing. I guess that means the set is still on the drawing board. Change is always possible.
Catalog price is $449.95, but the dealer price sheet is $499.95!
A call to MTH to determine which price is correct has not been returned as yet.
The set is apparently only available with proto-sound!
BTW: 2 people from MTH were at Jamaica Yard 2 weeks ago. They were looking over the R-32s
The MTH ones look better! Blue doors! No digital end sign!
I agree. If they were only Railking!!!!
If they were Railking they would probably be shorter, run on 031 curves, and be a bit cheaper in price!
Amen! My new layout is 14' X 16' designed mostly for subway operation. It's still under construction but there are already 3 curves that are O-32. The 3 curves are too critical to change at this late date. It'll be a shame not to have the R-32s in my collection.
O gauge is a difficult gauge when you try to realistically model a 60' car. It is much easier to do a 50' car and be very close to scale. There seemed to be a lot of complaints on the R-42 looking too short two years ago, I did not mind the short car as much as I noticed the different spaces between cars caused by the dummy and operating couplers. This time MTH must be thinking of the scale modelers, rather than the toy train buffs!
I totally agree with your assessment but I still feel cheated. I actually switched from N gauge to O gauge because of the MTH R-42s and the way they operated. All is not totally lost yet. I have two options to explore. The first is that I also planned a Class I RR to run around the outside of my Subway layout. That could be converted to another subway line. (Of course I won't get to run my lionel 681). The other option would be to modify the cars where necessary to make then operate on the tight curves.
You could get the set, and just put it on a static display. Sometime in the future things might change, and you might be able to build a layout with greater radius curves. It sure looks like it will be a beautiful set, and a shame to pass up. I might be wrong, but I think that these MTH subway sets will only increase in value as time goes on. I don't feel the same way about their other trains.
Keep that 681 running, it was one of Lionel's best engines!
I'm sorry to hear that you feel "cheated". I would think that you would be elated that a large toy train manufacturer has heard the cries of us subway fans and has decided to support us with wonderful models! Mike Wolf and the folks in Columbia MD should be cheered, not jeered! Please read the earlier parts of this thread. MTH wanted to produce an accurate "near scale" version of an IND/BMT subway car, similar to what they will produce shortly in the Railking Line for the IRT (R-21 - which BTW WILL negotiate O-31). MTH has stated the minimum radius as O-42 conservatively. The cars, when produced, may well be able to get around O-31 curves, as other similar length O-gauge product does. I think that the issue is going to be the end hardware, not truck swing. You may be able to modify the cars to operate effectively on the tighter radius if they won't do it as they come from the box. It's really hard to please everybody, all the time. When MTH produced the R-42's as shortened cars to be able to negotiate O-27 curves, there were cries of damnation from those collectors/operators/modelers that wanted a SCALE length car. MTH design has been made aware of your and others concern regarding the minimum radius. As long as scale fidelity can be maintained (which is important as a Premier Line offering), I'm sure that they will make all attempts to accommodate their customers. If the cars won't make the O-31 when produced, and you don't want to go in for home mods, you could always add that combined Class I and subway line. When you tire of running your venerable Lionel 681, you can always claim that your transit division bought the line from the Class I when it went moribund. There is protypical precedence after all, The Dyre Avenue Line! Happy modeling and please keep the faith!
Frank, when I said cheated, it was by no means a criticism of MTH. It was MTH and the R-42s that convinced me to sell my 20+ year N gauge collection in favor of O scale. I meant cheated only to the extent that I would not be able to operate the R-32s on my layout. As for the R-21s, I've had mine on order for months now.
OK. BTW, the R-21's are going to be delayed slightly beyond the original ship date by a few months. The delays are related to MTH making sure that the cars are as accurate as possible. MTH design has finally approved the "test shots" of the body molds from their manufacturer in Korea, and production can now begin. Please be patient! I know that you like them when you get them! BTW, I'm sure that Pat Villani and the folks over at "Modeling the New York City Subway" (www.monmouth.com/~patv) would love to hear about your layout plans! Photos??!!
I'm sure they'll be worth waiting for and thanks for the tip about the short couplers too. BTW - amy plans for NYCT work equipment?
You can fix the space between the cars issue. Contact MTH and ask to order additional "short" couplers for these cars. You may be able to do this through your local hobby dealer also. Replace the long couplers on the No. 1 (motorman) ends of the NON POWERED cars ( a simple job), and you will have the look that you want. Good luck!
I assume you are inferring that the operating coupler on the front of the power car should not be converted?
Frank, with all of this proto-typical discussion going on regarding the forthcoming MTH R-32s, has anyone tackled the idea of O-scale H2C couplers? (Obviously, no air & electric connections, but just a working couple mechanism?) This would be the "icing on the cake" for those who want a true NYC subway car.
Any thoughts?
BMTman
With little scale cutting wrenches too???
Why certainly! I hope the side doors are functional and I can listen for the variable load valve as the doors close. Hey, I would like to see an R-17 roll down my hallway! I'd better put a trolley pole on it....
But that's a good question. How do you simulate and H2 Head in Miniature? Any ideas?
-Stef
After MTH simulates a H2 Head they will start work on modeling the BU cars complete with operating gates.
It will probably be a Premier model though and not Rail King!
Uh huh. I expect that the BU will be replete with Prototype Sounds. 1227 comes to mind, as a provider of realistic sounds. Van dorns?!?! Ha! See if you can hold the link pin between the cars as they come together!
-Stef
I don't think I will live long enough to see MTH ever do a model of the BU, although I wish they would.
That Van Dorn coupler was the reason I questioned how you coupled 1227 together with the R-9. I figured that the only way you could have done it would be to have a long piece of heavy chain!
I don't think the R-9 and 1227 have ever coupled together, but I'm sure a Van Dorn to H2 Head Adaptor is available at Branford. Anyway, 1227 spent a lot of time on the road with Manhattan El Car G, before G was shipped to NY.
-Stef
Have you ever had to chain two cars together at Branford just to move one of them?
We've never done 1227 and 1689 because of the coupler issue.
You'd need a Van Dorn to H2 adapter that also has tappet valves
installed to bring out the brake pipe and reservoir pipe to
gladhands.
We don't tow cars with chain. Bad idea. Too much slop and snap
action, and then you have a little problem when the trailing car
wants to overrun the tow car (such as on a grade). We use large
steel tow bars. Last year I towed your favorite car, 1349, which
is currently on shop trucks, into the shop with 3662 using an
H-Van Dorn adapter on 3662, which provides a hole to drop in the
pin for the tow bar.
Nothing much has been said about 1349 since it went in the shop.
Is it still brown on one side and green on the other?
That's because nothing has really been done on 1349 this year.
The main guy on that project had family and work obligations
this year and wasn't able to come down to the museum. He's
doing some work off-site on finishing the platform crown
beam. Once that's done we can complete the rebuilding of that
platform and move on to the trucks.
We'll I'll be.... Shoreline has one of the gate cars from the last Lex train. How about that? Say, Karl, you weren't on 1349 on that historic trip by chance, were you?
1349 was the lead car going to Bridge-Jay. I believe that all of the big wheels were on that car, people like the borough president etc. I was on one of the platforms in the middle of the train. 1349 was painted green so I'm sure that I rode it sometime or other. It was my goal to ride every car that was painted green when I was young.
No, MTH plans to use Lionel compatible knuckle couplers, which are the "standard" for O gauge. Quentin Carnecelli of Q-Car Co. has produced "dummy" H2C couplers in O scale, and they are quite detailed. A functional H2C, or any tightlock, for that matter would be very difficult to make work in O gauge, where coupler flexibility is needed to negotiate the tight curves (both horizontal as well as vertical).
MTH design personnel visited Jamaica yard to photograph and measure the prototype. MTH is commited to producing an accurate model of these cars. Please note that MTH will produce the cars in the "as-built" configuration witht the traditional rollsign and marker lights in the bonnet. They will NOT be "Cyclops".
Thank goodness!! I'm really looking forward to this set which sounds like a dream-come-true.
BMTman
I'm tempted to go for a set for static display. Wonder if the side signs will be backlit in green....:-)
I looked closely at the drawings in the PDF file I downloaded. It appeared to show only one-half of the pantograph gates between the cars (.i.e, only the right-side gate).
Of course, they could always use the longer couplers to create a non-scale clearance between the cars. This would give some room for the fully extended gates. (I'm wondering what they will use on their upcoming R-21 sets.)
I once spoke to Quentin Carnicelli of Q-Car concerning the use of the gates on their scale R-17 models. He said they sell two versions: a fully extended gate for the front and rear of a train, and a "compressed" version, which can be used inbetween cars.
On my MTH R-42 set, I created my own polystyrene pantographs for the first and last car of the train; I used very thin insulated wire to recreate the "baloney chains" that connect them. (That also worked for the chains over the storm door.)
Train Dude
I will see the MTH people next week at the TCA York Meet and will ask them some of the questions you are bring up.If others have questions about the R-32 cars, please post and I will ask MTH,and post answers after the train meet.
Have Fun,
Ron J.
Gents, Ladies.....
Breaking news from London this monday afternnon, the new Mayor of London has just appointed a "Tube Commisioner" as part of the Transport for London (TfL) scheme. Guess who has got the job...??
A certain Mr Robert Kiley
who the British Press are saying "made New Yorks subway what it is today".......( This guy ex NYCTA subways then! )
Salary..
£ 250,000 + Bonus
comments guys/girls! most welcome.......
Kiley was MTA chairman. He was Boston's MBTA's chief prior to comming to NYC.
The MTA is an umbrella funding agency for cummuter rail, suburban bus and city subways and buses. The MTA has no operating arm. Kiley appointed David Gunn as head of NYCT (TA) to operate the city subways and buses.
The NY's MTA chairman is usually chosen for his political or financial acumen. If London needed an operations person, they have chosen the wrong person and the £ 250,000 has gone down the tubes.
They should have chosen David Gunn !!!! He's the best.
I could have had that job if they had offered it to me, salary is abit low though. I hope Mr Kiley is goimg to bring with him some old Redbirds to run on the District Line. Just think in year or so all the upholstered seats could be gone along with travel cards, one person operation and guards could be back. If he had been appointed last year perhaps a few 59's would still be around:)
Simon
Swindon UK
There is an article all about the successes of Mr KIley in this evenings Evening Standard www.thisislondon.com.
It should certainly enertain you all
Simon
Swindon UK
Well Simon, I didn't see the job advertised!
The thing we need to find out is if this guy is an Operations man or just a corporate big-wig!
On my shopping list for things to do would be:
1) appolish Travelcartd zones and introduce flat fares and 'metrocard'
type fare structure.
2) Link the East London Line at its Northern and Southern terminus
(lets be honest only a set of points (switches!) needed!
3) Re-open Aldwych Branch by making it an extension from the Doclands
Light Railway terminus at Bank
4) Introduce more Transport Police who deter crime rather than respond
to it at present
5) Outrage- close the circle line and allow the Hammersmith & City and
District Line to operate more frequent
6) And lastly , totally out of the commisioners control, introduce
Snapple vendors at all stations!
Regards
Rob :^)
A bit off-topic, but:
What's this I hear about Wembley Stadium being demolished and replaced? I played there in 1978 with my college marching band at a football (soccer) game, and we were treated to tea afterwards.
I am afraid so. The twin towers will soon be gone. It is a hallowed place for soccer fans all around the world.
It is quite old now and it is time for a new national stadium but I wish the towers could be kept.
It was quite sad that the last game played was between England and Germany in a world cup qualifier. Guess what, England lost, the team coach resigned, what a sad end to a sports legend.
Simon
Swindon UK
For a time, there was an NFL exhibition game there every summer, the London Bowl IIRC. Our own Denver Broncos played there in 1987. Whenever I would watch an event from Wembley on TV, I couldn't help but think I was there once.
When are you coming over again ?
Simon
Swindon UK
Don't know for sure (thanks for asking), but I definitely want to ride on the original 1863 Underground stretch. I can't believe I didn't think enough to do so back then.
Rob, with regard to point No 6 this may happen sooner than you think as Cadbury Schweppes (British company) have just aquired Snapple.
Simon
Swindon UK
The British know their tea, but do they know Americanized bottle tea? I stopped drinking Snapple because w/o carbonation I would just inhale the stuff and at .$85-1.00 per 16oz bottle it was too much money.
Snapple is just being introduced over here and is normally priced at around £1.25 or $1.75. its a good drink that comes in a 500ml bottle. most drinks here are sold as 330ml.
Simon
Swindon UK
Snapple and other Tea's are one of the last US beverages to come in a 16 oz. glass bottle. Since 1990 mostly all sodas come in either 12oz cans, 20 oz bottles, 24oz bottle and then 1/2 liter. The 16oz soda is a thing of the past. In supermarkets a 16oz Snapple will cost about the same as a 20oz soda. A good price is .85 cents in a supermarket or 1.10 in a convienence store.
Wish it was that price over here.
Simon
Swindon UK
That's one thing I've noticed about going to Britain and the rest of Europe, the prices for soft drinks are through the roof.
"Link the East London Line at its Northern and Southern terminus
(lets be honest only a set of points (switches!) needed! "
What do you mean by that? Link it to what??
North to Highbury and Islington via the ROW of the disused North London Line from Broad Street to Dalston. South from New Cross Gate to Croydon via Forest Hill sharing track/stations with Connex South Central (or Southern Railway Central Division as it was once known). Also, south west from Surrey Quays, a short new link of track, and then via Connex South Central to Streatham and Wimbledon. Shoreditch station would be closed, and service withdrawn from New Cross.
In fairness, this would require more than a couple of points, unless LT is going either to use dual mode 3/4th rail current collection rolling stock, or remove the 4th rail from the East London Line, which might be a very sensible thing to do.
This is most likely to be the next Underground extension project, along with Croxley to Watford Junction (Watford station would close). Based upon current timescales, I predict both of the above in place around 2010, and the Chelsea-Hackney Line finally completed 2020.
If you visit the southern terminus of either New Cross or New Cross Gate, both stations are just cross platform distances away from 'main lines' from London Bridge so engineering wise, little infrastructure work needs to be carried out to connect these branches.
At the Northern end,the rush hour only terminus at Shoreditch is also only about 400 yards away from the up/down electric lines from Liverpool Street, again no great infrastructure needed.
Going back in history all three connections use to be railway 'rights of way'.
So in direct answer to your question a cross London route is just waiting to be connected, all sorts of possibilities then exist, mainly Liverpool Street to East Croydon via New Cross Gate.
As fellow countryman Max Roberts has pointed out in the "NEW LT PROJECTS thread" the only big hurdle is work to adapt the 4th rail current system to 3rd rail, this is nothing big as the Bakerloo Line north of Queens Park,District Line Richmond-Gunnersbury and also Wimbledon Park-Southfields has a mix of 3rd and 4th rail operation.
Regards
Rob :^)
An article about Robert Kiley being hired to fix the London Underground appears in Tuesday's NY Times. He was originally contacted as a reference for another candidate for the position.
So a comment by one rider yesterday on a Web site devoted to criticizing the subways — www.tubehell.com — might be taken as representative of the feeling about Mr. Kiley's imminent arrival: "Sounds promising. He certainly can't make things any worse."
I see the British have imported something akin to the Straphangers campaign. That'll fix things.
According to Newsday (the Long Island Newspaper), Mr. Kiley will receive up to $750,000 per year during his 4 year contract. Of course, the full amount is tied to improvement of the London Transport system. It was reported for comparison that the Mayor of London receives $125,000 per year.
10/09/2000
The Budd Company is well known for superior manufacturing of stainless steel railroad coaches and a some famous subway cars. Did Budd have any inklings to dabble in the production of PCC cars ? If they did, they would have been as durable as the R-32's or the "Almond Joys".
Bill "Newkirk"
I would like to know on when SEPTA plans to restore the Route 15 Girard Av light rail service & when work will begin.
When service is restored, will Kawaski or PCC cars be used on Route 15 & since now there are plans to close the Callowhill Depot & replace it with a brand new depot on the same site as it was mentioned in SEPTA's 10 year plan. Will Elmwood Depot be used for Route 15, will the PCC be maintained there (if PCC are used on Route 15) & where are the PCC stored right now.
The work has begun but it won't be completed until late next year or early '02. A separate posting covers the issue of rolling stock, which may result in a delayed re-opening of the line.
The line revitalization work included a hefty amount to rehab Callowhill for the cars for the service. Route 10 would also return to the depot under this scenario. Callowhill would be an operating base but not one for car maintenance, which would still be handled at Elmwood or Woodland depending on the extent of need per car. The main issue would be the basing of cars and operators at Callowhill to reduce the extreme amount of deadheading to get cars into and out of service (although with 10 the cars usually operate into and out of Center City as revenue runs on 11 or 36, but this is nearly impossible with 15).
A recent related happening is SEPTA's desire to move operations out of Callowhill, which is in SEPTA's current capital budget. Other options are being explored, the most attractive being a site near Belmont and Parkside Avenues. This is very preliminary and there is no answer on whether rail operations would go to the new site, since the main concern is the removal of buses from a very residential area which is constrained on all sides and allows no room for expansion. Whether rail would stay at Callowhill or move to a new site (or even revert back to Elmwood, although there are capacity constraints there too) have yet to be considered.
Is there a Senate race in New Jersey or was it basicly desided in our June 7th "we don't care about the presidental nominee" primary election when Corsine spent 36 million dollars to beat out the unfairly maligned Florio. With the sheer quanity of TV ads most New Jersians assumed the election was already held.
Pennsylvania Democrats took a statewide poll in June to see how Ron Klink was doing, and most of the Democrats in the Philly area said they would vote for Corzine.
Never overestimate the intelligence of the electorate!
When it comes to New York I never underestimate the voters lack of smarts. They, in a gem of a lack of pride, will probably send a carpetbagger to the Senate.
We're not talking about New York. Pay attention!
I'm talking about New York. You pay attention. You are probably going to send a carpetbagging non-New Yorker to the Senate, and that smacks of a lack of pride. It also sucks.
Dude, don't blame them. Every single commercial break from like May to June had at least 1 Corzine ad. You can see how effective TV ads are. BTW you didn't answer my question. I haven't heard any news about an actual race with another party. I think ppl just assumed Corzine won the election.
There is a Republican running against Corzine. He expected to get a windfall of soft money when the NY candidates swore off, but I read that the GOP is running soft money ads in NY in spite of the agreement.
His name is Bob Franks, and he is a congressman from somewere in NJ.
What does any of this have to do with rail transit, particularly in New York City?
David
Well, if Corzine wanted to, he could pretty much bankroll PATH out of his own pocket for the next decade or so :-)
Well I just recieved my Meriden to Philly Amtrak ticket via the mail. Prices are down again and it only cost me $37.50 with a student discount. In the mailer the ticket comes in a little holder/info booklet and this booklet contains no less than 4 ads/ I have to applaud Amtrak's ability to turn anything into a revenue generator. I also have noticed that whenever I buy my ticket with a credit card, my credit card number is on both the Conductors part of the ticket and the coupon. Its not very secure to have your CC# on a very loosable item or on something a devious conductor can swipe the number from. Everyone who travels Amtrak should be aware that their ticket stubs contain their CC# and should be careful in disposing of them.
Only the conductor part has the CC# number, but still be careful.
The passengers with credit card tickets are asked to sign the conductor's portion to validate the charge to the account.
Ive NEVER been asked to do this.....
The passengers with credit card tickets are asked to sign the conductor's portion to validate the charge to the account. (chuchubob)
Ive NEVER been asked to do this..... (Lou)
Amplification: This is for tickets charged by phone or internet. It was done on both trains that I rode in August between Philly and Washington.
Bob
I've never been asked to sign them either, and I've purchased all of my tickets via the Amtrak website for the last several years.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
They normally don't care. However, there have been times when the conductor insisted that I sign the ticket before collecting it.
I only have to sign them when I pick up a pre-paid ticket or buy one on site w/ a credit card.
It's not just train tickets. Airline tickets sold through the ARC (Airline Reporting Corporation) have full credit card numbers on them -- the portion retained by the agent when you board the flight. There's no way around this. Caveat emptor choo choo.
Guys,
Every time you use your credit card, the merchant keeps a copy of the receipt. Usually this includes your name and card number. [Some have begun blotting out part of the number on the receipt, but this usually only occurs with ATM receipts.] Any unscrupulous sales clerk could easily ascertain your number, or it could be misplaced, in which case anyone could pick it up. What is not on the receipt is the card's expiration date. When you place telephone and/or online orders, the merchant also asks for the expiration date of the credit card as a security measure, so theroetically no one can use your card without either the actual card or the number AND expiration date.
OTOH, this reminds me: My bank just converted my bankcard to a mastercard debit card, unilaterally. IOW, I had no choice in the matter. I called them up, explaining that I did not want this. I said that having the mastercard logo on my card would allow a thief to deplete my checking account while using my card like a mastercard, i.e. not having to type the PIN. Their response was basically, "Tough s**t," and that the signature on the back of the card would protect me. Now, how many times has a clerk checked your signature against the card or your driver's license? This seldom happens for me. I don't know about you, but should something that catastrophic happen, I am certain my bank would take ages to go through all of the red tape to finally return my money should it have been stolen via debit card fraud. In the meantime, my rent does not get paid and I don't eat.
This just proves that it's a crap-shoot every time you give out personal information. Orwell was only off by a few years. The only thing you can do is pray you're not the next victim. All our asses, and, in fact most of are assets, are just hanging out there.
Good luck.
Pete,
Debit cards are covered under the same rules as credit cards - if you PROMPTLY report the theft, you are only responsible for the first $50.
Life is, of course, a series of trade-offs. Due care is always needed in financial transactions. And I wouldn't worry too much about the merchants. They are in the same boat you are.
Incidentally, debit cards (ATM cards with Visa/Mastercard logo) carry different serial numbers than regular credit cards.
I just LOVE my Visa debit card [from my checking...] has made life SO much easier....Especially since my bank doesn't charge for trannies made when you select the 'credit' option when you swipe it - i.e., using it as a CREDIT CARD as opposed an ATM card...yes..I know its confusing...that only means when you use it as a credit card [at the grocery store,for ex...]you CAN'T get cash back...big deal...
With debit cards you don't collect the extra 30+ days of interest you would with a credit card. Time is money and all those few cents add up.
>>> .that only means when you use it as a credit card [at the grocery store,for ex...]you CAN'T get cash back <<<
Your grocery stores are more conservative than those here in L.A. Most will give cash back up to $20.00 over the purchase with credit cards.
Tom
The standard MC/Visa retail merchant agreement forbids giving customers currency for logo instrument credit transactions. This is partly due to differences in how "goods/services" and "cash advance" transactions are processed. For ATM/debit, a merchant must also have a separate authorization from their depository institution permitting them to give out cash (fraud/loss prevention).
Unless a merchant is specifically authorized to hand out cash, they risk a substantial penalty from MC & Visa. They can also be dropped as participating merchants.
>>> The standard MC/Visa retail merchant agreement forbids giving customers currency for logo instrument credit transactions <<<
I don't know whether the supermarkets out here have made a special deal with MC/Visa, or they are doing it on their own, but they will give cash at the transaction in Southern California. It does not show up as cash advance, but just a higher charge. It is limited to about $20.00 because the merchant is paying the credit card company its discount fee on this money.
Tom
You mean grocery stores in NYC don't have debit terminals? In Baltimore (and DC) the conversion from Food Stamps to the "Independence Card" meant that all the grocery chains in Maryland were wired for the IC's, whereupon the local bank interconnect (MOST at the time) gave the stores debit access as well. Then VISA, MASTERCARD, DISCOVER and AMEX all hooked up too. Even the 7-11's and Mom & Pop's are hooked up too.
And, with an ATM card, cash back over the purchase total is always an option, and the stores don't charge for the privledge.
Having a ATM card that's also a Debit Card is great when it's time to renew the Monthly Pass.
Debit cards are covered under the same rules as credit cards - if you PROMPTLY report the theft, you are only responsible for the first $50.
Sure, but it's a matter of timing. When do I get the money back? If a thief has mastercarded most of my money out of my checking account, I'm certain the bank won't replace it the next day! C'mon, it's a bank. I asked the CSR, "How long will it take for the money to be repalaced it it's stolen?" She had no answer. I work in a bank, and I know how much red tape there is. It makes government bureaucracy look good by comparison. I know I could switch banks and go with a smaller one, but I doubt their security and customer service would be much better, and my access to my money is limited and more expensive.
But getting back to Amtrak, I have often been asked by the conductor to sign my ticket purchased with a credit card.
Most institutions have daily limits for "cash" and "purchases" on debit cards to prevent "cleanouts" (as well as helping the clueless who try to use the cards for a large-dollar transactions, not realizing the money is reserved immediately). Many will let customers select lower limits if they are concerned about larger amounts being available.
For those who are exceptionally paranoid, they should get a separate "household" account strictly for purchases and avoid using their "main" account's card for any retail transaction.
Of course, the simplest yet most routinely ignored thing consumers can do to protect themselves it to read their card agreements. All of them disclose the parties' responsibilities, liability, and procedures for issue resolution. These can vary greatly from bank to bank. Some banks completely wash their hands of any problems with logo transactions and leave it to the customer to take it up with the logo company; others are very proactive and will assume the role of liaison.
Good old common sense is really the best protection...if something seems fishy about a merchant, just don't give them your card and/or take your business elsewhere. I don't give much thought to using my debit card for refilling my SmarTrip, because should a discrepancy arise I feel I can trust Metro to rectify it. OTOH, I would never use a debit card at any merchant I know nothing about -- I would only use a credit card there if I decided I simply have to complete that transaction.
New York Cancer Project MetroCards will go on sale at 7am on10/16/2000.
There will be two different versions.
One will feature "African-American Baby" and the other "Chinese Baby"
As usual:
1- A booth may not get the card even thought hey are on the list.
2- Go to the full-time main booth at the station
3- A station may have the cards even though they are not on the list due to supervision transferring fare cards to that booth.
Here is the list- stations are not grouped.
AFRICAN AMERICAN BABY
155-D
145-B,C
116-B,C
145-1,9
137-1,9
125-1,9
148-3
145-3
135-2,3
125-2,3
116-6
110-6
103-6
96--6
CHINESE BABY
Canal-A,C,E
Grand (Manhattan) -B,D
Elmhurst-G,R
Grand (QUEENS)G,R
2nd Av- F
Delancey-F,J,M
E Broadway-F
N Blvd- G,R
65-G,R
Woodhaven- G,R ONLY
Prince- N,R
Canal- N,R,6
90-7
61-7
52-7
On the Brooklyn A I saw a strange sign in the tunnel. It reads:
LU
1
(others have read LU2 through LU5.) What does this mean?
These signs designate where the 1st car of a train being Layed-Up [stored] should be spotted. They'll lay up trains underground during a cold weather plan, for instance.There are also tracks underground where trains are layed up every night, such as D4 track on the Queens Blvd. line at 169th St., Parsons Blvd., and Kew Gardens. You'll see those signs there as well.
Speaking of strange signs:
I've noticed mileage signs here and there, and I wonder what starting point they refer to.
For instance, there's one of the 7 line that says (I think) "MILE 15". Now the whole 7 line isn't that long!
Is this a holdover to the time when the 2nd Ave El ran on the Corona (Flushing) IRT?
Andrew
Perhaps "15 Miles"? They indicate the speed restriction. See the section on this site regarding timer signals.
Now, I've got a weird one for you - on the E, heading toward the WTC, there are signs on the wall between 5th and 7th Aves (I'm pretty sure it's there and not Lex and 5th) that say "DO NOT TOUCH". Any ideas?
It probably said "15 MILES," referring to the speed limit. The only place I'm aware of that you'll find distances is in the chaining codes, which are posted on the number plates of signals. Those are given in hundreds of feet to (or from) zero.
Mark
What about those signs that say for example:
C2
8.5
There are a couple of signs similar to this at the 74th Street station on the 7 line, and numerous others spread throughout the system.
On Saturday Night Live this past Saturday there was a mock commercial for something, and it took place on an R-44 at Hoyt Schermerhorn.
I love those mock commercials. Remember the Amazin Lazer, or when they got Sam Waterston to hock Old Glory insurance to protect older people from robot attack. How did they ever get him to do that? What was this mock add for? Maybe something that zapps the door holders.
The commercial had a bunch of kids rapping (badly) about some ridiculous product, the commercial could have just as easily taken place almost anywhere else, but I'll bet the director had recently ridden an A train after schools let out and got an inspiration.
Yup, I had a feeling. I saw SNL this weekend and that sure looked like an R44.
According to a short blurb in Monday's Philly Inquirer, a car was rear-ended and pushed into the path of a CSX freight train at a grade crossing in Edison Saturday night. The 78-year-old passenger was killed; his 59-year-old wife fled the car before impact. The driver of the offending car was charged with careless driving and driving without insurance. Edison police and Middlesex County prosecutor's office are investigating.
I've seen conflicting information on this. When the operator releases the controller, does the deadman put the train into emergency, let the train coast to a stop, or do something in between? Does it depend on the position the controller was in when it was released? Does it vary between controller types or car classes?
Thanks,
Mark
I can't imagine what sort of conflicting information might be
circulating, unless it refers to cars other than those currently
running on the NYC transit system.
If the deadman is released, the brakes are applied in emergency
and the motors shut off, unless the brakes were already appied
at full service.
So the t/o can do this:
Put handle in full service, release deadman, stratch, disengage deadman, release brakes and proceed as normal?
Exactly like that. Although I've never seen anyone stratch before. Is that what you do when you get an itch while you're stretching?
I've seen a guy do exactly that, without the scratch.
A practice of T/O's is having the train in full service and letting go of the controller as they reach the car stop marker. People do see this, and the train is moving with the deadman switch "released" could be confusing...
Some T/O's have the train moving quite fast when doing this, I've observed.
Yes, a very, very sloppy practice. A lot of train operators
have no idea what it's like to operate "a real train" where
pulling that and stopping with a full service brake would
put everyone on the floor.
I've seen LIRR and MN crews do it on the M series cars before.
Most of the operators out there are new on the job and never had the misfortune of operating trains with cast iron brake shoes and heavy dynamic over inshot. The thing I really don't understand is why the folks at PATH do this all the time too. Those retired K cars and the PA 1 to PA 4s stop great. They don't even try to smooth down their stops.
It seems that the PATH trains stop hard all the time. Also very few cars who lost their dynamic brakes. Can't hear the dynamics hum either.
"Misfortune" ???
Come on, I know you'd rather run a 10 car set of R-10s, flats
and all, than a train of s**tc*ns
As far as the PATH is concerned, I always hear the "pssst" from the pilot valve before the train comes to a complete stop. The engineers almost never bleed down the SAP at the stop markers. The misfortune I was referring to comes to point that nothing was uniform back in the days. Some pilot valves would dump the brake pipe at 82, some would not. Since everything and everything was on their last legs when I came out, no train stopped the same as another. For example, the R44s that had the Pwire replaced initially had fair dynamic but very long brakes upon brake cylinder application. The R10s were overall great braking but I never found one that accelerated uniformly to another. I guess most of the other operators had trouble with them too as there was an RTO bulletin in 1988 mandating that the controller be put into the coast position for at least 2 seconds before applying the valve for an application. There was a Halon fire extinguisher R30 WH train (1989), an elevator door R44 (1992), R36s with exterior guard lights, some piece of junk R44 with a digital sign on the end and the R46 cars that if you set the side signs to number 12, all the side signs would roll all the way to the end. I'm sure by the time I post this, I will have left out half my career. Oh, well, I guess I was fortunate after all to make it through this. New RTO personel don't have a clue what a skate key or fuse puller is. Newer ones may not get a doorcheck after the next few years. At least I didn't have to bang in jumpers with the hammerhead on a Hi-V.
Can you imagine doing that on a southbound train of R-10s screaming down the incline just before 42nd St?
The passengers would be at 34th street before the train would !!
Yep, like on the redbirds. The ones on the 7 are similar. Even though they been modified full service on a redbird is pretty harsh.
The T/Os on that line as I seen do modify the pressure as the train stops ending up with the handle in min. brake.
I been on a redbird that went into BIE and people almost ended up on the floor, lucky for them we were pulling out of the station going 10 MPH. I don't know about the rest of the fleet.
Putting one of those thing in full service and releasing the deadman at a stop must really hurt.
Hello, New Yorkers, greetings from the land of Tea and Cucumber Sandwiches . . . .
I've been reading this board off and on for a while but something's cropped up and so I'm posting for the first time now.
It's like this: Robert Kiley, 63, has been appointed by our new mayor to sort out London's Public Transport systems. Apparently he has a history of success in NY so my question is: What did he do for you, if anything, and what can we expect?
Ok, have now seen and read the 'Newsflash from over here' thread, which kinda answers my broad question but I'm still interested in personal viewpoints/reminiscences from people who were there . . . .
The MTA used to publish a subway & bus guide BOOK back in the late 1970's which was in soft cover and was about 100 pages long.
What I am looking for is the title of the book which had in the title in large letters "New York" in blue, white and red combination letters.
Or even better, if you have or know someone who has a copy of this guide book and is willing to sell it, please e-mail me the details and maybe we could conduct a little business(of course a finders fee would be given).
This would be really important to me as I used to have one of these books as a child(I actually had 3 of them at different times) and I would love to have one again to preserve. But even just the title of the book would be a huge help in helping me finally finding it!
Thanks everyone!
the zman
as always, heypaul to the rescue....
the title is "seeing new york: the official mta travel guide"
it was published in 1976 by the mta and the library of congress number 75-18834
on the front cover it also has a number of 445-08407-295
it has 240 pages
i have an old worn copy, but i have 2 suggestions for maybe finding it
the writer/editor was john tauranac, who worked for the mta, and who has also authored several books on new york city and the empire state building... he has also given walking tours of grand central station sponsored by the municipal arts society... the municipal arts society might be one place to try to reach him
second possibility is arnold joseph, who sells books and other memorabilia at the monthly era meetings in new york city... aside from providing bmt man with all kinds of exotic maps of the transit system, he frequently has old maps and magazines and a full line of my subtalk posts... i don't have his number, but i'm sure doug "malbone street disaster" diamond will provide you with it...
Arnold B. Joseph
1140 Broadway (Room 701)
NYC, NY 10001
(212) 532-0019
By Appointment Only
(from his business card)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
i'm listening to wnyc am radio right now, and john tauranac is on the program... he just pubished a new guide to manhattan titled "manhattan, block by block"... it is a block by block guide book to manhattan with bus and subway maps... it sounds interesting... it was just published in august by tauranac maps...
Does it have a parking regulations map?
Yesterday while riding the Bx12 bus over the university heights bridge, I saw the R110B laid up in the 207 street yard. What's going on with this train?
The R110B cars call the 207 Street Yard home. It makes one or two round trips between 168 and Euclid every weekday. Cars 3001 through 3006 make up the consist. Cars 3007 through 3009 are used for parts. If you saw it, it may have been taking Columbus Day off! :-)
I believe the trains were on a Saturday schedule and the R110B doesn't run on Saturdays.
Nope, NYCT buses and subways were on a regular weekday schedule.......
3TM
Oh well. Down here in DC we were on Saturday Supplemental which is the stupidest thing since it means Saturday service even though a fair amount of people still have work and school. They do it on Veterans Day which is ridiculous. Last year, I spent hours getting home fron school because of Saturday Schedules on Veterans Day and a water main break on Wisconsin Avenue which backed up traffic in every way. I was in T-shirt and shorts and hadn't changed since I was rushing for the bus and got to wait for the single bus on Ride-On route 23 which in the end, never came (I took the T2 about 3 blocks but it took 15 minutes do make it that far so I got off and walked home). In the time I waited at Friendship Heights, I could have walked home and back to the Metro.
Moral of the story: Transit should be on a weekday schedule Veterans and Columbus Days.
Up here it is (commuter rail as well). And I don't have school on either day :·)
On President's day they run Saturday schedule, except for the Pascack line, which runs 1 or 2 trips inbound in the AM and 1 or 2 outbound in the PM (If they ran Saturday schedule, there would be no service!)
But this year, it was a combo holiday of Yom Kippur AND Columbus Day, and passenger loading was rather light all day. Here in New York, these holidays seperately jutifies a daily schedule, but for this year a Saturday schedule would have sufficed. But these are not paid holidays for NYCT workers. So those who would request off would request to get paid out of their AVA (saved holiday) bank if a Saturday schedule would have been operated since less personell would have been needed.
I noticed this car in the Corona Yard, near the LIRR tracks. It is painted like a redbird, and is all by itself.
I was able to look at it from the road that squeezes between the LIRR tracks and the tennis stadium and take some pictures. Here's what I noticed:
• The number plate on the east side of the car just has a "93__" on it and the black bar with purple diamond under it.
• The number plate on the west side of the car has a "_306" on it.
The car looks like an R22, therefore it couldn't be 9306. It's in the wrong place anyway. AFAIK, 9306 is in the TM. It has cabs, end signs and marker lights on both ends. My hypothesis is that this car could have been 7306, the only number that would make sense, since the number plate on the west side of the car has _306, with one number missing (the underscores represent missing numbers). Can anyone give me some background on this car?
Well, as it is explained to me, 9306 is still considered to be on the active roster even though it resides in the Transit Museum. Apparently, 9306 was being used for filming at the Transit Museum one day for a commercial in the 70s where it assumed it's position at the end of the platform and could not be moved with other cars in the way. It wound up staying on as a Museum Piece. As for the one at Corona, it is an R-21/22 used as some kind of locker car for storage. I forget, but I wonder if it is used as a School Car?
-Stef
No, School Car in Corona Yard is the white trailer near the garbage platform.
The Mystery car at corona yard is none other than R21 # 7261. I remember seeing her before she was repainted red. The -306 is a joke. They wanted that car to be #d 9306. Thats what you were seeing. its been cannabalized severely. I saw this car when she wore yellow around 4 maybe 5 years ago. I hope this helps.
Thanks Tom!
-Stef
Are these cars visible from the walkway to the park? I plan on going out to Flushing Meadow Park during my visit and want to take some pictures of Corona Yard from the walkway. Not to mention the Unisphere.
The "Mystery Car" I referred to (R21 #7261) is visible from the area on the walkway directly above the Long Island Railroad tracks. To get a better view of it, you need to take a set of stairs that is at the extreme right beyond the stairs to tracks 5-6 as you walk towards the park. At the bottom of the stairs, walk in the direction of the tennis stadium, along a road that goes between the stadium and the LIRR tracks. You should be able to see it across the LIRR tracks by the time you reach the shack on the grassy side of the road.
D9306? Tht's odd.
I wonder why it's not listed in the list of preserved cars.
This happened to me Monday night at 10:25pm leaving CI bound from Prospect Park. We leave the station with the Conductor (C/O) (who could barely be understood in his version of English) stating Parkside was the next stop.
We leave Prospect Park and stop, the T/O (Train Operator)is getting the Green over Green lineup for the express track. Our T/O is trying to reach DeKalb Tower to question the lineup while the C/O is saying "signals are against us, have patience, Parkside Next".
As I have experienced before from the exact location Dekalb is not answering. Now publicly there is a G.O. (General Order, an order the changes the regular scheduled service) for the Brighton line starting at 11pm that has trains running express from Prospect Park. It is not anywhere near 11pm yet.
Our non-english speakig C/O is still telling us we will be moving shortly, Parkside next, when a new voice with authority comes over the PA "TRAIN OPERATOR ACCEPT THAT LINEUP PER G.O. 335 (some number I don't remember) THAT IS A VALID LINEUP"
Our T/O "Uhhh ohh ahh RIGHT, Thank you, EXPRESS STOPS EXPRESS STOPS"
Our English challanged C/O gets with the program and "CHURCH AVE NEXT, EXPRESS STOPS" which sounded more like "Urh next, pess Ops"
So I can only ASSUME that this voice of reason was some TSS (or BMT Man breaking into a cab). I also wondering if the REAL G.O. (not the red and white signs the public see) state which train the order starts with or would they have different start times then the public "flyer"??
Just wondering, oh and that conductor needs some serious speach threapy. A lot of people in the car with me gave each other strange looks about the sounds coming from the speaker..."Ewwirk, Ings Next, issed stop ansfer D ther atfort".
That could be a bad PA - I've heard many cases of the PA cutting in and out. But it's certainly possible that your conductor really talks like that. I had one on the E a few years ago who announced: "Tis A brain due Queens". That announcement actually got people to get off the train at 42nd because they thought it was an A, despite the signs.
Not a bad PA, the voice was clear and full words but with a HEAVY HEAVY accent hard to "type" in my message. Brought back memory of the SNL (Saturday Night Live) skit about the speakers...
Or perhaps the Monty Python skit about the three guys who only say beginnings, middles, and ends of words respectively.:-)
G.O.s that cause service reroutes usually come with a supplement schedule that shows which trains will be affected by the GO. It sounds like nobody told this crew (and that they neglected to ask) that there was a GO running that night, and they got caught by surprise.
Thanks Alex, I couldn't see what the punch was and I still don't know where that "voice" came from but it was a 1/2 hour before the public published G.O. start time. Not that I'm upset, I get of at the Highway.
Your "voice of reason" was probably a stunning coincidence. Just as someone on the crew pushed the PA button, either Control or DeKalb Tower called over the radio with that message and you heard the radio broadcast over the PA.
Yah that could explain it, it was DeKalb over the raido over the PA, well it got us moving.
I agree with your point about 11 PM, but that means that the tracks must be cleared of all trains by 11 PM so RTO can give up the track to the people doing the work.
Announcements on the 7 have got to be the worst to understand.
Just to let you know Lou that the abbreviation for a conductor is C/R.
A C/O is a corrections officer(and you can keep THAT job).
I'm keyboardaly challanged, thanks for the pointer.
Did the Giants or Dodgers move first? Were they one or to years apart. When and who waz the last two opponents in the last subway series?
avid
Both teams skipped town following the 1957 season. The popular story is that the Dodgers wanted a new domed stadium downtown, which they would pay for; however, they needed the city to provide the land (I believe the proposed site was the LIRR's Atlantic Terminal) and the permission of Robert Moses. Moses, of course, favored a stadium right where Shea sits. The Dodgers then convinced the Giants to come along for the ride west. As they had their own stadium issues, they were hesitant at first, but eventually decided to skip town as well. The last real 'Subway Series' was in 1956, and the Dodgers lost to the Yankees. Of course, in 1955, the Dodgers won their only World Series in Brooklyn, beating the Yankees.
An interesting aside-the pennant in LA that celebrates the 1955 Dodger team is a phony. The original, which was stolen, was turned in to the Brooklyn Boro President in the early 90's. It flies over Boro Hall, and as per Howard Golden, will be returned to 'dem Bums when they return to Brooklyn.
-Hank
Hank , I ask you . Could the 1989 series between the SF Giants and the Oakland A's be consideded a subway series. They have BART. I just don't know if Bart even comes close to either Ball park? Maybe a bus series.
avid
You could call it that, but they preferred 'Battle of the Bay' or 'Bay Series' since they were 2 cities across the bay from each other. This is also the only WS that had a multi-day delay (19 days IIRC) due to the Loma Prieta earthquake.
-Hank
BART goes right past the Oakland Coliseum, but got nowhere near Candlestick Park. Now with the Giants Pac Bell, it would be a little easier for the teams to have a true subway series, so long as the fans in S.F. don't mind a bit of a walk (about like from the No. 7 train at Times Square to the site Rudy wants to put the new stadium at, south of the Javits Center)
"Moses, of course, favored a stadium right where Shea sits."
Hold on a minute, Robert Moses -- the man who hated trains* and showed it** -- actually wanted to locate a public works project convenient to existing rail transit?
*he said so in his autobiography
**no provision for trains on the Narrows Bridge, etc., etc.
No, he wanted to build it as part of his proposed park for the World's Fair, and easily accessible from the Whitestone and Grand Central Parkways, Van Wyck and Long Island Expressways.
Also proposed expressway along Northern Blvd.
-Hank
**no provision for trains on the Narrows Bridge, etc., etc.
In order to make the grades negotiable for trains, the ramps for the Verrazano Bridge would have to be MUCH longer, and that's not practical for a borough that's relatively sparsely settled even now.
Why does sparse settlement make long ramps impractical?
I believe 'sparse' is NOT the word little piggy meant to use. Bay Ridge is densely settled, and has been for years.
-Hank
I know Bay Ridge has been densely populated for decades. I lived there over 45 years ago. While I don't remember it, my parents have told me that they were afraid "they" were going to knock down the apartment house to make room for the bridge approaches.
It's not practical to make long ramps to offer subway service to Staten Island. That's the sparsely settled borough.
Don't forget this year's "Bus-subway-ferry-anutha bus" series between the Queens Kings and SI Yankees! Or should that just be called the Interstate 278 series?
Which other cities have the potential if not the talent for a "subway series?
Once upon a time Philly and Boston could . But the A's and braves moved. Iguess L.A. could . I know I'm missing someplace?
avid
St. Louis had the Cardinals and Browns until 1954 (now the Baltimore Orioles). Chicago. That's it. Washington had 2 clubs, both the Senators, but both were AL teams, and both existed at different times.
-Hank
And the kicker is, both Wrigley Field and Comiskey Park are served by the Red Line! In the olden days, the #22 Clark-Wentworth streetcar route served both parks.
Techincally, San Francisco also has two teams if you count the A's in Oakland. That would be a BART series.
Which did happen in 1989 (and could have happened again this year, mutter grumble). Candlestick Park isn't anywhere near BART, but the new Pac Bell Stadium that opened this season is within walking distance of the Embarcadero station, so if both Bay Area teams had gone all the way, it would indeed have been a BART series.
Alan Follett
Hercules, CA
Wasn't the 1989 World Series called the Bay Area Series? Or Earthquake Series, perhaps?
The local press initially dubbed it the "Bay Bridge Series"; "Earthquake Series" was first heard around the time play resumed a week or so after that little seismic rhubarb.
Alan Follett
Hercules, CA
They called it the 'Battle of the Bay' Even had a logo.
-Hank
Of course, calling anything in St. Louis a subway series would be giving a lot of credit to the short stretch of subway that Illinois Terminal used to reach their St. Louis station.
And what about Los Angeles? The present Anaheim Angels were originally the Los Angeles Angels, and played in the city their first few seasons (1961-1965) before moving to Orange County and changing their name to California Angels. In the 1962 through 1965 seasons, they even shared Dodger Statium, which certainly would have simplified transportation problems had the two teams met in the Series.
Alan Follett
Hercules, CA
In 1945 the ONLY all-St. Louis World series took place, and appropriately in that travel-restricted war year,it took place all in the same ballpark [Sportsman's Park],as the Browns and Cards shared it normally during the season. They finshed the series off in 6 days, as the Cards beat the Browns in six games..1945 was, also of course, the ONLY year the Browns ever won an American League pennant.....Also, the sportswriters of the day referred to the series as a 'Trolley Series"....
The first Yankees-Giants series - in 1922 - took place in the Polo Grounds, as that was the season before Yankee Stadium opened.
Now wouldn't a subway series in 1974 or 1975 (or was it 1975/76?) be cool?
1974-75 -- I spent two summers as a non-union usher at Shea who only got assigned if they failed to meet their union usher call and/or had larger crowds than predicted (A Yanks-A's doubleheader in August '74 was the best payday, including tips). Both teams had an outside chance at the playoffs in 1974 before the Mets faded and the Orioles got ridiculously hot in September. In '75, they both stunk.
The '74 Mets never threatened in the pennant race, finishing at 71-91. Tom Seaver had a tough year, going 11-11. Most of the problem was due to a painful sciatic nerve in his hip.
In 1975, they stayed in the race into August, then got swept by one of the teams in their division, resulting in Yogi getting fired. Seaver won his third Cy Young Award that year.
Interestingly enough, Shea Stadium was used by four teams in 1975 - the Mets, Yankees, Jets, and Giants. The playing field took an absolute beating that year.
My memory on the Mets is a little faulty, then. I was going on how many calls I remember getting (bring blue bow tie for Mets games, black bow tie for Yanks) where they actually needed the extra ushers, and it dropped off big-time in 1975, meaning you had the option of either going home on the Flushing line while other people were heading to Shea, or watching the game for free, but dressed in white shirt and usher's pants (the bow tie definitely came off), which looked particularly goofy.
Attendance at Met games started dropping off after 1974, bottoming out in 1979 when only 788,000 showed up for the entire year. Those were the lean years when the Payson family didn't want to pursue high-priced free agents in an effort to hold down ticket prices (and save a buck or two anyway they could). It has been said that had Gil Hodges not died, the Mets would have remained competitive throughout the 70s. M. Donald Grant, who in the words of Whitey Herzog didn't know beans about baseball, never questioned Hodges about anything. One scenario had Hodges being the GM and Herzog managing. Whitey was director of Player Development at the time and was ordered to stay away from Hodges' funeral. He's never forgiven the Mets for that.
Actually, that all-St. Louis World Series took place in 1944. The Cubs advanced to the Fall Classic in 1945 and haven't been back since.
>>> Which other cities have the potential if not the talent for a "subway series? ..... Iguess L.A. could <<<
The only thing L.A. needs for a Subway Series is a subway which goes near Dodger stadium and an American League team. L.A. is a one team town. The next closest team is the Angels in Anaheim, which does not consider itself a part of Los Angeles any more than Hempstead considers itself part of NYC. A series between the Angeles and Dodgers is correctly called a "Freeway Series".
Tom
And don't expect to see such a series anytime soon.
The Phillies and A's both played in Shibe Park (later Connie Mack Stadium), so fans wouldn't have taken the subway between their ballfields. However, many fans used the Broad Street Subway to get there. I did.
Before 1935 or so, the Phillies played in an abomination called Baker Bowl, which had been built originally back in 1880's,and was a TOTAL wreck of a ballpark - Part of the stands actually collapsed a COUPLE of times, there an actual HUMP in centerfield- part of the park was situated over the Lehigh Valley train yards, believe it or not...Fortuantley, the Phillies were a terrible ballclub for many,many years, so baseballnever had to worry about it being 'shown off' in a glamour event like a World Series......
Speaking of Philadelphia, when was John F. Kennedy Memorial Stadium torn down? It seems all it was ever used for during its final years was rock concerts, and up through 1979 for the Army-Navy game.
It seems all it was ever used for during its
final years was rock concerts, and up through 1979 for the Army-Navy game.
JFK Stadium was torn down several years ago after it started falling down. The FU Center is using some of its space, south of the FU Spectrum, which is south of Vet Stadium, all served by the Pattison Ave station of the BSS.
Your statement is pretty accurate. However, there was an unusual promotion of an exhibition football game there the year the AFL started. Somebody promoted a preseason game between the NY Titans and Boston Patriots. He was just about laughed out of town for staging an exhibition game between 2 teams of another doomed-to-failure upstart pro football league in a NFL city. He co-promoted it with Acme Markets and got 75 thousand spectators to come out.
While we're on the subject, was JFK the home of the Eagles before the Vet, and also, didnt' they play in Franklin Field? Franklin Field is still there, no? Close to Penn?
Also, the only thing I remember seeing (on TV) in JFK Stadium was the Live Aid concert. That event sure was something.
The Iggles didn't play at JFK (formerly Municipal Stadium). They played at Franklin Field, on Penn's campus. SEPTA rail put a station adjacent to it for the trains that go south/southeast out of 30th Street.
Also, the only thing I remember seeing (on TV) in JFK Stadium was the Live Aid concert. That event sure was something.
Duelling concerts at Wembley Stadium and JFK televised worldwide.
As well as attending the Titans-Patriots game mentioned in my previous post, I attended a Who concert at JFK with 101,000 other people. It was awesome.
I seem to have read that the Eagles played at JFK, formerly Municipal Stadium in their early years, mainly because rent was low. Attendance was pitiful, though. Even with its open end, JFK could still seat 100,000. Can you imagine what sort of capacity it would have had with a completely enclosed field?
Notre Dame-Navy games were played there during the 1960s when Navy was the home team (they've never played each other at Annapolis, believe it or not), and it was already dilapidated back then. The 1957 ND-Army game was also played there; in fact, there is a color photo of streetcars lined up outside the stadium on the very day of that game in one of the books on Philly's streetcars.
If the Eagles played at Municipal Stadium, it was prior to my awareness. Perhaps they did.
I have a book titled Pro Football's Hall of Fame, which chronicles the lives and careers of its charter members (Jim Thorpe, Red Grange, Bronko Nagurski, Sammy Baugh, Mel Hein, Don Hutson, George Halas, and Bert Bell, among others). IIRC, Bell helped found the Eagles in 1933 - or was involved in some capacity - and arranged to play at Municipal Stadium because of the low rent.
IIRC, Bell helped found the Eagles in 1933 - or was involved in some capacity - and arranged to play at Municipal Stadium because of the low rent.
That's way before my time. BTW, the Eagles played at Shibe Park before moving to Franklin Field.
The 1948 NFL Championship game was played at Shibe Park in a blizzard.
Who played, and who won? Please tell me my Iggles won a national championship at some point, since they can't seem to win a Super Bowl!
Your Iggles won championships in 1948, 1949 and 1960.
Not your Iggles, eh? :o)
Know who the opponents were?
1948: Chicago Cardinals
1960: Green Bay Packers
Yeah, and Chuck Bednarik came out of retirement to help them win the last one. Took out Frank Gifford in a late season game with the Giants. Frank missed the entire following season because of that.
In one of the "Things That Aren't There Anymore" programs from Channel 12 discussed in a recent thread, Concrete Charlie was interviewed about the 1960 championship game. The reporter found him at his mother's house in Bethlehem, PA. She came to the door and couldn't speak to the reporter because she hadn't learned English after living here 50 years. At least that was my impression; maybe she's deaf.
That sounds about right. Chuck always conversed with his parents in their native tongue (Croatian, perhaps?), just as my folks and I still converse in Lithuanian (although they're both fluent in English, even if it isn't perfect). I wouldn't doubt his mother never learned English. My grandmother was never really fluent in it, either.
Chuck was talking about how he tackled Jim Taylor on the last play of the 1960 title game, then sat on him as the clock ticked off the last remaining seconds. Taylor was cussing him out, telling him to get off him, etc. Once time had run out, Bednarik said, "OK, you big so-and-so, you can get up now. This game is over."
Slovak
I stand corrected. Thanks.
Don't forget the many stock car races and the Thrill Show at Municipal/JFK. The crowds for the Thrill Show were huge, although the seats on the north end (the 'top' of the horseshoe) weren't used for some reason. I recall as a child going to these, arriving and leaving by the shuttle buses that ran between the then-end of the Broad St Subway at Snyder and the stadium. On the trip down, there was a seemingly endless line of buses which snaked from the loading point in front of the old Broadway Theater around the corner along Passyunk Ave. I think all PTC depots supplied buses for the shuttle service. After the shuttle service got everyone to the stadium, the buses lined up in the parking lot on the Broad St side and stayed there until the show was over, then they were loaded up for the return trip.
So is it true that JFK wasn't used for football again after the '79 Army-Navy game?
Walter O'Malley was offered the very site Shea occupies today, but turned it down because he felt that very few Brooklynites would venture to Queens to see the Dodgers play.
Like more Brooklynites would venture to L.A.?
There was nearly a subway series in 1950. The Phillies had a big lead most of the season until one of their 2 ace starting pitchers, Curt Simmons, got called up to military service for the Korean War, marking the beginning of the Phillies' subsequently patented late season slide. Going into the last game of the season at Ebbets field, the Phillies had a 1 game lead over the Dodgers. Robin Roberts, the other ace starter, started with a couple days rest and pitched a complete game, with Dick Sisler hitting a 3-run homer in the top of the 10th to win 4-1. With Roberts used up and Simmons gone, the Phillies used reviever Jim Konstanty to pitch the first game of the World Series, which the Yankees won 1-0. The Yankees swept (2-1, 3-2 and 5-2).
Cal Abrams was thrown out at the plate by a wide margin by Ritchie Ashburn while attempting to score on Duke Snider's single. The Dodgers proceeded to fire the third base coach. There was also a close play at the plate in which the Phillies' runner was called safe when Campy insisted he had him cold. At least the Phillies didn't blow the pennant the way they did in 1964. Up by 6 1/2 games with 12 to play, they lost 10 in a row while the Cardinals snuck in through the back door. The Mets figured in that race. They took two of three from the Cards right at the end and only a St. Louis win on the last day of the season prevented a three-way tie for first place.
Of course, the following year, the Dodgers blew a 13 1/2-game lead and lost the playoff with the Giants on Bobby Thompson's "shot heard 'round the world". You have to wonder what it was like on any given D train that day.
B"H
what *exactly* is skeletonized track? what's the difference between that and 'regular' track?
also, has anyone noticed the ceillings of the tunnels in the bowling green tubes? it looks pretty shabby, like it might come down at any minute (or at least parts of it) is the mta on top of this or what?
-yitz
I would guess it is track with the ballast removed and or/not secured/imbedded in a concrete foundation.
When Type II (half-ties in concrete) track is being renewed,
all of the old concrete that holds the ties in place is chipped
away and removed, then new half ties are laid on the invert (the
concrete foundation of the roadbed. Typically a period of time
elapses before the new concrete is poured over the ties, since
that requires taking the track out of service for about 60 hours
to let the concrete cure. During that time the track is called
"skeletonized" and the ties are held in position with temporary blocking. It's usually a 10 MPH zone because the track
can not withstand the high forces that would be placed on it by
normal speed running.
For a closer look go to the Northbound local track at 72/Bway. The skeletonized track starts just passed the CR board.
B"H
how convienient, I may actually be going up that way this evening...thanks for the info, gang!
-yitz
The way it is, is that if a Motorman gets tired of holding it, u can come to a stop in a station, and pull 80lbs of air and the Emergency brakes won't apply because its in Full Service. This is easy to understand if u watch the Air Guage, or some cars like the R46 say full service and when u reach full service u may let go. If u pull less than 80, it is supposed to Dump( apply brakes in Emergency). Also I think if u pull more than 80 it is supposed to dump anyway. I was on the uptown 2 in the BX and this Guy tried to stop the 2 at Freeman street and he pulled more than 80 and u heard the psssss-CHOW emergency sound and the Train made a hard stop.
You can't pull more than 80 lbs. of brake on a SMEE car. What happened is the T/O went too far with his brake handle and placed the train into emergency. Emergency is the next notch after full service. And most trains will still stay charged with at least 70 lbs. of straight air pressure when the master controller is released.
The retention pressure is the (Straight Air) pressure at which the deadman's feature will not activate if the master controller handle is released. The point of retention is not arbitrary and is something that is supposed to be checked on every inspection. On the R-46, the retention pressure should be above 58 PSI (if I remember correctly).
David said that its illegal to be on the platform on City hall station, and not to instruct us on how to get on the platform. Why not? we ride through the loop, and thats illegal too aint it? Don't get me wrong, but I won't go on the platform.
I don't recall advising you that it's okay to stay on the train either, when they explicitly tell people to get off. What you do is your own responsibility. Trust me, if the excuse starts to get around: "I read how to do it on a site on the web", that's the begininng of the end. When I start getting calls from the police about things people have done after reading this board (or, in another matter, things people have written here), that's the end of it. So use common sense and if you guys are going to discuss it, take it to email.
I thought the first ammendment allowed people to distribute information on how to commit "illegal" acts. You could always move subtalk to an overseas server. My website was overseas until the hard drive went.
The first amendment is not at issue here (that says, in part, "Congress shall make no law", it doesn't say anything about whether I have to allow it on my privately owned hardware).
I am not a lawyer (IANAL) and neither are you, but there has been dangerous precedent set in the past in regards to computer bulletin board systems that are involved in some way in illegal activities, be it software piracy, phone phreaking, bomb making instructions, etc. Typically the operator of the site is held liable for its content, hardware is seized, etc.
I've asked before but I do not think we have any actual laywers here.
As for hosting this site at an offshore hosting facility, that's ridiciulous. Why should I spend my money so you guys can talk about trespassing without risk? YOU host it if you want it so badly.
I've asked before but I do not think we have any actual
laywers here
Me, actually, though I work as a financial editor.
And John Bredin, Esq., plus at least one other whose name escapes me as well (which I really should remember since he gave my daughter some good advice on how to choose a law school).
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
In case you haven't heard, there have been many cases in which the courts have ruled that police and prosecutors had violated a citizen's freedom of speech. I expect that such cases will continue to arise. Before you advise people to stand on their rights, I suggest you contemplate the amount of grief and agrevation suffered by the people who won or will win those cases along the way (not to mention those who were mistaken about the extent of their rights and lost). In short, the cutting edge of the law is not a comfortable place to sit. If you want to put your toosh there, that is your concern. Dave has no obligation to join you.
u guys should stay out of the tunnels......unless u got a death wish. Messin with a 40 ton subway train WILL get that wish granted quick fast ina hurry!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
u guys should stay out of the tunnels......unless u got a death wish. Messin with a 40 ton subway train WILL get that wish granted quick fast ina hurry!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!U HAVE BEEN WARNED!!!!!!!!!!!!
The tracks for city hall station are not in revenue service the C/O is suppose to clear the train at Brooklyn Bridge before the train is looped. You are not supposed to be on the train, passangers are not to be carried on non-revenue tracks. This was a change, I have in the past stayed on the train and when the T/O asked me to leave I asked him to call Command (Jay St.) to find out that is was okay. THAT HAS ALL CHANGED as stated by others in the thread.
You can try to stay on, but according to the current rules the operating crew should remove you.
This site should not endorse any illegal activity, from riding around a loop track to jumping to the track bed to take pictures (another past thread), it is all tresspassing and an ill-eagle!!
The tracks for city hall station are not in revenue service the C/O is suppose to clear the train at Brooklyn Bridge before the train is looped. You are not supposed to be on the train, passangers are not to be carried on non-revenue tracks. This was a change, I have in the past stayed on the train and when the T/O asked me to leave I asked him to call Command (Jay St.) to find out that is was okay. THAT HAS ALL CHANGED as stated by others in the thread.
You can try to stay on, but according to the current rules the operating crew should remove you.
This site should not endorse any illegal activity, from riding around a loop track to jumping to the track bed to take pictures (another past thread), it is all tresspassing and an ill-eagle!!
There's quite a difference between staying on the train for a trip around the loop and actually going onto the City Hall platform. If you're caught on the train going around the loop, you can say that you'd fallen asleep and didn't hear anyone tell you to get off. Obviously, if a crew member comes up to you before the train goes through the loop, and tells you to get off, you have to.
Actually going onto the platform is another matter. That would be very difficult or impossible to explain. Besides, just getting there would be dangerous.
As Dr. Hibbert said "I won't help you do that, but I will recomend someone who will."
Go to http://www.infiltration.org
They have information on how to explore a number of structures including:
Abandoned Buildings
Drains and Catacombs
Hotels and Hospitals
Institutions and Offices
Transit Tunnels
Utility Tunnels
The .org is based in Toronto so it kinda has a local slant, but it is still very helpful.
I know the TrainNet forum on Compuserve has this public notice:
Official Notice:
Public messages and files that endorse, incite or encourage members of the TrainNet Forum to participate in any illegal activity will not be permitted. Such activities include, but are not limited to, trespassing on railroad property, theft or vandalism of railroad equipment and interference with the operation of any railroad.
I think Subtalk lives up to this standard, I don't know if it you should incorporate a notice like this but on TrainNet anything talking about tresspassing is deleted without question.
Railfanning is about learining detailed, useless information, outdoor adventureing with little regard for property rights, salvaging stuff and taking pictures. We are in the same general group as extreme outdoorsmen/environmentalists, government conspiricy nuts and birdwatchers. BTW I found a great Web Ring: The Urban Exploration Web Ring I did not see if forgotten-ny.com is a member site.
Railfanning is about learining detailed, useless information, outdoor adventureing with little regard for property rights, salvaging stuff and taking pictures.
Wrong on almost all counts. Railfanning is about enjoying trains, exploring areas where we are welcome, learning information that is of interest to us and which is probably useful to us in some way, salvaging stuff that is deemed trash by its owner, and taking pictures. It is NOT about breaking the law.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I read the "Day in the life of..." section and based on what I read, working for the MTA sucks. Please tell me that what Alex L. went through those days is not a common thing. Also, the article gave the feeling the MTA treats its employees like irresponsible teenagers working at a McDonald's. Is this the case? What are the things you like about working in your position?
I'm not trying to put down anyone's job, this is just what I got out of it. Please correct me if I recieved the wrong vibe from the article.
Also, the article gave the feeling the MTA treats its employees like irresponsible teenagers working at a McDonald's. Is this the case?
Probably because that's what many of them were before they came to work at the MTA.
The day that he mentioned was very far from the ordinary but some days can be real doozies that's for sure.
And the TA treats their front line workers like a pile of sh*t.
We do have days where nothing happens but who would read this story:
I went in to the booth and nothing happened. 8 hours later I wwent home.
Unfortunately events do happen and we have to respond.
Rob,
To put you at ease - No, those days are not "real". All of those events have happened to me, just not all on the same day. The T/O story actually took place on two seperate days,while the CR story happened piecemeal over fifteen months. In general, most of my days have been pretty quiet, just going up and down the road. However, that tends toward very boring story-telling.
As for working for the MTA, I don't. The Metropolitan Transportation Authority is an 'umbrella' agency that is supposed to provide financial and planning oversight for a number of transportation -related agencies in NY State, such as Metro-North, the LIRR, LI BUS, the Triborough Bridge & Tunnel Authority and the one I work for, the NYC Transit Authority (NYCT). It is these people who treat us like teenagers at McDonalds. Actually, in MY OPINION,it is not that bad. When you first sign on, they give you a rule book, the tools to play the game, and a bare minimum of practical application; then they send you out to play Game 7 of the World Series, every day. If you play by the rules, the game is easy and can even be fun; if you break the rules, and GET CAUGHT, it can be very costly. I would imagine, though, that those are the same conditions that exist in most workplaces (For the 15 years prior to Transit, I worked in a different game - The Deadline. No one cared how the work got done, when it got done or where it got done, just so long as when Opening Night rolled around, all the work was DONE).
In general, the biggest drawback to the job are the MORONS who ride the train (NB - this does not include everyone; only those incapable of civilized actions and common sense. Unfortunately, a lot of people regress to the level of their Stone Age ancestors when they enter the subway).
Sorry to take so long responding, but I was out sick for a few days.
Yeah, I'm out sick now with a sprained ankle. All you curent TA enployees and TA wanna bees: if you live alone & book off sick don't take a shower without calling out of the house! Yesterday while I was in the shower the doorbell rang, my wife answered it and it was some TA guy checking up if I was home. Never mind that I have 21 years on the job, have 200+ sick days and never had any disciplinary action! If I lived alone or my wife was out, they would have marked me AWOL! And if you are sick & sleeping at the time, if they ring the doorbell and you sleep thru it, you're AWOL as well! So I had to get out of the shower and talk to this guy. And my wife thought it was so childish that I had to sign a form that I was visited. And she always tells me that I talk like a disgruntled employee! She now admits that she knows why! So you wanna be a TSS? I'm glad I'm not one because I couldn't lower myself to check up on people who are out sick. If a guy abuses his sick leave, then I have no problem with being visited, but it is a slap in the face to any dedicated and conscientious employee. This is total disrespect. All because the supt. of the district is in competition with the other ones and if his guys are out less than the others, he gets his bonus/promotion! They try to intimidate people and bother them at home so they won't book off sick in the first place. And to top it all off, when I initially booked off, the woman asked me if I wanted an AVA! They must have had guys falling all over each other on extra board and if I took and AVA, it would not have been charged against employee availibality. What nerve! This is a legitimate illness. If I have a BIE, I couldn't walk around the train. It would also be difficult to climb up & down from the roadbed. And I'm taking pills to reduce the swelling in which it says not to operate heavy machinery.
I go to a school in NYC, and they had to send someone over to check
whether I actually live here!
I go to a school in NYC, and they had to send someone over to check
whether I actually live here!
That is a surprise. While schools sometimes do verify student residency, that's generally when there's a highly regarded suburban district close to a troubled urban district. People who live in the urban district may try to send their children to the suburban district, using relatives' addresses or the like, and as a result the suburban districts will check on residency. But it's hard to imagine why anyone would wrongfully try to send their children to NYC schools!
Not all New York PUBLIC schools are bad. I put in public to make sure that you don't think I'm exploiting a loophole.
That's true. On the other hand, I taught in a truly awful DC public school, and we had kids coming from across the city, which seemed odd. And then we had kids who actually lived in Maryland coming there! Truly bizzare. Never from Montgomery county, or Virginia. But still, kids were coming from out of district to a truly bad school.
There are suburban schools worse than the average NYC school (or worse than the worse). Roosevelt, LI comes to mind. Then there are NYC public schools that are some of the best in the country and get put on the US News list(then there are those that are snubbed because those idiots use higher average income to a school's detriment).
My Dad's former private company once had a program: go X number of weeks without a sick day and you go out to a restaurant on the cuff, X months more gets a better restaurant with the Vice President, X months more gets a trip, etc.
He said "there are a lot of things you can do that don't cost a lot of money but really make employees feel motivated." The public sector policy is different: "there are a lot of things you can do that don't save a lot of money but really make employees feel screwed."
Just remember, your pension is more generous than those is the private sector, and it is easier to goldbrick than in the private sector. The government only rewards employees who DON'T work.
Don't get fooled by the "generous" pension. We pay for our own pension via mandatory payroll deduction, albeit it will be less to pay come 12/15 for transit, whereas as far as I know, in the private sector, for example the former Chemical Bank, my former employer, paid for the enployees' pension themselves with no employee contribution. Of course they saved money becasue of the lousy salary they paid!
But do you pay Social Security Taxes?
Of course I do and so do you. And I don't make enough money a year to get to the point that they stop taking Social Security taxes out. Do you pay for your future pension by payroll deduction or does your boss pays for it? Most companies pick up the cost. That's my point. Also in the TA some people (Tier 1 people pre 1976 hire-ees) do not pay for their pension yet we all do the same job!
I was asking since there are some State and local government jobs where they do not contribute to the Social Security and I wasn't sure if transit workers were or weren't. Now I know.
In the distant past, 30 years ago and more, many, if not most, corporate pension plans required employee contributions, but now the percent that do is very low, probably less than 5%.
In the distant past, 30 years ago and more, many, if not most, corporate pension plans required employee contributions, but now the percent that do is very low, probably less than 5%.
Technically, that's true, but... most corporate pension plans 30 years ago were generous enough that you could actually retire on them, with full medical benefits. Now, unless you contribute to the max on your IRA and 401-K, retirement is out of the question, and lifetime medical benefits are a thing of the past too (but I can buy them through my employer after retirement at a cost of only $200/month MORE than my pension will pay out).
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
>>> I was asking since there are some State and local government jobs where they do not contribute to the Social Security and I wasn't sure if transit workers were or weren't. <<<
When Social Security was started during the depression, when the majority of non-government workers did not have any pensions, it was sold to the public as a universal pension plan. Government workers who had a pension plan (usually contributory from the worker's wages) were exempted since it was believed that their retirement was assured and they were already paying for it. I believe railroad workers were exempted from Social Security on the same basis.
By the ‘60s, working patterns had changed and workers did not necessarily enter into one government job and spend his/her whole working life there, and would be at a disadvantage if they worked in government too short a period to earn a full pension and worked under Social Security too short a time to get benefits. Most private employers were providing pension plans also. Because of inflation the retirement benefits to be received from Social Security were diminished in real terms. The federal government line now became that Social Security was a supplement to other retirement income rather than a full pension. This undermined the rationale for exempting Government employees. More and more local governments opted into the Social Security system, with a corresponding drop in the employees' contributions and benefits, so that now only a relatively few do not participate in the Social Security system.
Tom
More and more local governments opted into the Social Security system, with a corresponding drop in the employees' contributions and benefits, so that now only a relatively few do not participate in the Social Security system.
I believe that Los Angeles County and the state of Alaska do not participate in Social Security.
I was totally unaware that some did not contribute to Social Security. Sorry if my tone was a bit caustic!
No problem!
In the distant past, 30 years ago and more, many, if not most, corporate pension plans required employee contributions, but now the percent that do is very low, probably less than 5%.
Of course, there are many major employers today that do not offer any regular pension plans at all - the nation's largest private sector employer, Wal*Mart, is an example.
Railroad workers do not contribute into social security. Their money is diverted into "Railroad Retirement" instead. It is 12% that is deducted before taxes.
I thought railroad retirement was merged into social security about 20 or 25 years ago.
Where my dad worked they used to match employee contrabutions up to 17%. After a while it fell to 10 and then 9, but my dad always contrabuted the max amount. All the money I have earened in jobs and stuff so far I have put into a Roth IRA.
How can I goldbrick? Either I'm on the train and working, or I'm not. When I worked in an office, it was real easy to look like I was working while doing absolutely nothing.
(When I worked in an office, it was real easy to look like I was working while doing absolutely nothing. )
Thank God for the internet. I've been working like nuts for two weeks to meet a deadline, and may have to work Sunday as well. But after that it's an election year, and unless I get another job, I many have next to nothing to do until April 2002.
Absolutely shameful, that's all I can say.
The TA is like that alright. Mainly because so many TA workers before us abused the sick leave to such a point that they ruined it for all of us current employees. When they got 12 annual sick days in May, they would use them all up by June. Sick days are to be used when you are actually sick, not because you feel like hanging out or whatever.
I am a train operator with another 25 years to go before retirement and all I know is that there is no way that I am going to stay an hourly worker(train op, conductor, railroad clerk, etc.) for the next 25 years putting up with all this garbage. Did you know that supervisors never get checked up on when they are sick? True. Also did you know that a superintendent practically has to be an invalid in order to take a sick day? Maybe that's why they take all this garbage out on us.
All I know is that I'd rather take a promotion to dispatcher or train service supervisor and deal with having a raise every 5 or 6 years and no pick rights than stay a train operator for the next 25 years and have to worry about every little thing whether at the job or not(i.e.sick). Things will only get worse for the hourly worker as the years go on and as they do it's a good idea to have fewer people above you to mess with you.
The TA is like that alright. Mainly because so many TA workers before us abused the sick leave to such a point that they ruined it for all of us current employees.
There are still employees who abuse the 'Sick Leave Policies'. In some cases the abuse is quite blatant. Unfortunately, Sick Leave Abuse does more than cost the TA money. It also damages morale in the work unit - moreso than the controls you are complaining about.
Also did you know that a superintendent practically has to be an invalid in order to take a sick day?
This is also untrue. In fact, the sick leave policies for managers are somewhat more liberal than for hourly or supervisory employees. Requirements for turning in 'Sick Lines' are different and we can use our sick time to care for other family members. As it happens, though, I have well over 200 sick days. I don't have them because I can't use them. I have them because if I ever do get seriously sick, I won't miss any pay checks.
All I know is that I'd rather take a promotion to dispatcher or train service supervisor and deal with having a raise every 5 or 6 years and no pick rights than stay a train operator for the next 25 years and have to worry about every little thing whether at the job or not(i.e.sick).
Do yourself a favor and don't take a promotion for the reasons you stated. You will be
A) Just as unhappy in your new position.
B) A lousy supervisor who will be universally disliked by his subordinates and managers.
C) Likely demoted in a short time.
The step to supervisor requires that you change your mindset. You'll be required to enforce rules that you currently don't seem to agree with or understand the wisdom of. That's a poor recipe for a successful supervisor.
The unfortunate part of the 'repressive' policies is that they are often a reaction to situations experienced with bad employees. I work for a government agency that has similar policies (i.e. sick leave abuse/tracking employees, having to get notes for funerals (as hard to believe as that sounds - and try it sometime (I guarantee you'll get a very strange look from the funeral director)), and similar things). The policies didn't just materialize out of thin air - they are there because of experience.
Employees often argue that the rules are too 'paternalistic' and that they should be allowed to use 'their' earned sick time as they see fit, etc. The problem arises when a 20-year employee who has taken off sick regularly for hangovers, rainy days, extended vacations, trips to the track, etc, suddenly develops a serious illness and has single digits of sick time to cover it. All of a sudden, the idea of 'banking' the sick time for when it's really needed becomes apparent and the employee looks for a way out. Yes, it's difficult to deal with, but once again someone who decides not to take responsibility for his/her own actions now needs to be bailed out once again.
In these types of agencies, management employees can be held to higher standards by the top management, especially since the management folks are not usually represented by unions. Thus, the most stringent rules apply to those who cannot apply them as stringently to the 'front line' workers. Consequently, management folks usually end up with higher stress levels, burnout, and changed careers.
I'm not saying NYCT/MTA is right in what it does, but I think there are good reasons for this. The idealistic solution would be for folks to take personal responsibility for their actions and realize that their paychecks could be higher and workplaces could be much more pleasant if everyone tried to follow some basic rules. Since too many people are out to get what they can when they can, the oppressive rules will remain in place.
>>> The idealistic solution would be for folks to take personal responsibility for their actions and realize that their paychecks could be higher and workplaces could be much more pleasant if everyone tried to follow some basic rules <<<
This was used at the large non union firm that I worked at. The illness policy was that there were no set number of sick days, but any employee who felt he/she was too sick to work could call in sick. The company explained that it valued its employees and did not want to financially penalize them for illness, so they would be paid when out sick. After three consecutive days of absence, the employee was transferred to "short term disability" status and stopped receiving pay checks but would receive insurance benefits equal to their take home pay. To return to work, the employee had to bring a note from a doctor saying he was again fit for duty. There was also a policy that if an employee wanted a day off for personal business, he/she could explain the reason to his supervisor in advance, and if it was not a frivolous reason, the day off would be granted with pay.
It was up to the individual supervisors to make sure the policy was not abused. In the fourteen years I worked there both as worker and a supervisor, I never saw an abuse of this policy. OTOH I had several friends who worked for the County of Los Angeles. Their union contract allowed ten sick days in a rolling twelve month period which were not bankable. As they got to the point where it had been a year since they had been off sick, so they could accumulate no more sick days, they would take a day or two off so they would not "lose" the time. Anyone who did not take the time off was considered a fool by his co-workers.
Tom
That's the same way it is here in Arcadia, California's school system. You get ten days of sick leave per year, but you cannot add it up over the years anymore. When I started close to 33 years ago you could. Such stupidity and short-sightedness on the part of management continues to astound me. They want loyalty but refuse to show real interest in their employees. Is it any wonder in many fields the employees are telling management in subtle and not so subtle ways to take a hike. Witness the MTA strike in Los Angeles.
I guess what I find disturbing about Bill's story is not that they make sure employees are sick. Its that they went and checked up on Bill, given his particular circumstances. That is not treating your employees with respect. Employees who exploit the system will damage morale, but so will treating all employees as if they are always exploiting the system.
Those are not the reasons that I would want to take a promotion. I want it so that I can have a potentially or have it lead to a potentially challenging job other than the train operator job that I have now which can get monotonous on some days. It's just that the reasons that I had listed are some of the perks of the appointment to supervisor. I'm very happy with the job that I have now, it's just that the people down at Jay St. are out for blood and I would prefer that it not be mine.
And I'm taking pills to reduce the swelling in which it says not to operate heavy machinery.
Does that exclude light rail?
No, it doesn't exclude light rail. We had 2 bang-bangs at BWI Light Rail Station, resulting in 2 cars OOS for an unknown period. Both operators were taking some form of prescription drug that impared coordination.
Why can't people here detect humour? Do I need to say Rim Shot or something?
Some of us do. We also find humor in the serious responses.
No, that's my line .:-)
>>> If you play by the rules, the game is easy and can even be fun; if you break the rules, and GET CAUGHT, it can be very costly <<<
That's better than the military. There they have so many overlapping and conflicting rules, procedures and orders that if they want to pin a SNAFU on any individual they play the game of GOTCHA and are always able to find something that person did wrong.
Tom
I have heard this all b4 about Railfans or no 1 being allowed to ride on non Revenue Tracks. Oh please! I have not only ridden thru the city hall loop, but other non revenue Tracks such as the F Train Relay behind 179th street, and yes I have walked between the R46s and even sat in the Motormans seat and had my pic taken! Not to say anything, except this one thing. Motorman, Dispatchers and Conductors suddenly stop caring about where the public is not allowed! I have ridden the F from beginning to end in the R46 Motorman cab standing from 179 to Coney island. And some advice. If u wanna ride thru the City hall loop, DON'T RIDE IN THE FIRST CAR!!!! I always ride in the last car sitting behind the Cab underneath door number 1 and 2, opposite side of 11 and 12. THE CONDUCTORS NO LONGER CARE ABOUT EMPTYIN THE TRAIN!!! They just close it up when ordered, and I went thru! But one question to City hall station experts. Why do Motormen Stop in the loop? is that where they spend their recovery time? or is there alot of 6's in there waiting to turn around? To Lou, I have also ridden the 5 Trains loop!
Final question, every time I ride thru the loop, the 4 Train arrives with the 6, and then a 5 comes and then leaves and once the 5 leaves, then the 6 leaves. Is this schedule set up this way? the 4, then 5, then 6?? interesting!
Spend some time watching the board at City Hall from the end of the downtown platform, and also pay attention to the terminating and departing locals. You can see the board across the local track right about where the second car platforms. You'll quickly learn exactly what goes on in the loop.
Mark
I rode around the loop in the R142A. It was pretty neat.
Clark Palicka
CEO TrAnSiTiNfO
http://www.nyctransitinfo.com
I have actually been thrown out of the R142 by police officers while attempting to go around the loop once.
I had gone on the loop about 5 times before that, but not on an R142.
Your motorman friend was taking a risk as he could have easily been written up for having an unauthorized person in the cab(an employee not performing duties in the cab is also considered unauthorized).
The same for riding the 179 relay, he could have gotten in trouble for that as well so thank your friend next time you see him.
And no, you aren't allowed to ride relay trains as per TA rules. You can get away with sneaking a ride on the relay like most railfans have done but you can get caught up if the train that you sneak on deviates from it's schedule and runs light.
As far as not caring about emptying the train, that's not always true. It depends on what line you are on and what train crew you get. If you get on my train, you will not ride the relay but the next crew might not care and let you go.
I am all happy and glad you enjoy risking a trip to Central Booking. I just think we shouldn't discuss illegal activites, period. All your TA friends risk writeups and suspensions, they are individuals as yourself and they can do what they want, it just should not be promoted in my opinon, and that is just that IMHO is mine alone as yours is your opinon. Enought said on this...
I don't know if anyone has mentioned this before, but SEPTA has really improved the Regional Rail area of 30th Street. New signs and lighting on the platform and in the waiting area. It looks very nice.
This is an 8.5 inch x 11 inch 20 page booklet printed by the MTA. They later decided not to distribute it. It contains 20 glossy, color pages of actual size photos of 1997-99 commemorative MetroCards & cardholders. Full color photos of the Subway Series 97, Then and Now, Emigrant, JVC Jazz, Healthy City, Ferry Boat, Yankees 98, Subway Cool, Millennial Journeys, Mets International Week plus 63 Cardholders including the complete Great Subway series. All photos are actual size & full color! A beautiful collector¹s MUST HAVE. The supply is very limited. When they are gone, they are gone.
Send $10.00 ea.+ $2. P & H in check or Money Order
Made out to Mike Makman.
To: Prof. Putter
Po Box 755
Planet Station, NYC NY 10024
Got mine last Friday .... the colors are very nice. Not every MC ever issued, but it appears that most if not all of the Holders are.
Mr t__:^)
While passing over the Coney island yard on the belt pkwy I spotted what looks like a yellow school bus on wheels. Any Info on this equipment?
This subject has been discussed MANY times here and elsewhere.
What makes it look like a "school bus" is the yellow paint. Actually, it is a GM transit bus, either a TD4506 or TDH4507, mounted on a flatcar and used for track inspection work. Closeup photos exist int he New York Subway Resources website.
I believe what you are refering to is called the Sperry Rail Service car (aka SRS 402). It can be found at various yards throughout the system as well as doing duty at mainline rail facilities.
It is gasoline powered and as far as I know it does a "sonogram" of the running rails to find minute cracks in them (if any exist).
BMTman
I saw and recorded Sperry car SRS 403 at the 71-Continental station.
I also have a picture of it with 50150. Just Click on the picture link below, take the express train, then the Court St Shuttle, then go to Transit Pictures 1 or Transit Sounds 2000.
In Fall of 1998, here was the arrangement of trains (all times out of Jamaica) between 2:30 and 3:30 PM:
2:34 to Ronkonkoma: Mineola, Hicksville, all stops to Ronkonkoma
2:50 to Huntington: Mineola, Hicksville, Syosset, Huntington, Change at Huntington for Port Jeff, Mineola for Oyster Bay
3:04 to Patchogue, Mineola, Babylon, all stops to Patchogue
3:18 to Huntington, all local stops
Because of a construction project, the routes were reduced "temporarily" to:
2:34 to Ronkonkoma, Mineola, Hicksville, all stops to Ronkonkoma,
change at Mineola for Oyster Bay
2:52 to Patchogue, same as before
3:13 to Huntington, all local stops, change at Huntington for Port Jefferson
After the summer, service was "restored to normal". Here is today's arrangement:
2:36 to Ronkonkoma, Mineola, Hicksville, all stops to Ronkonkoma,
change at Mineola for Oyster Bay
3:00 to Patchogue, same as before
3:13 to Huntington, all local stops, change at Huntington for Port Jefferson
Under this arrangement, every train is SRO except fot the Patchogue! And what about the Port Jeffersonians who have to deal with a local?
Also, the 1:10 PM out of Port Jeff discharges all passengers at Huntington where they wait for a local, while the diesel deadheads toward Jamaica, arriving 10 minutes before the local. On new years the train kept passengers until Jamaica, why not now? The 4:03 PM and most weekend trains continue on to Jamaica with passengers, why not this one?
Very easy. It was a cost cutting move. When costs are cut, the line superintendent gets a bonu$.
Ah, the old "return to normal" switcheroo.
Several years ago, the LIRR tried massive restructurings which amounted to service cuts. For example, they had Port Washington construction midday service cut back to hourly (from half-hourly) for so many years they thought noone would mind if they made it permament. They did.
Then they tried to run Babylon locals hourly (instead of half-hourly) because it will "regularize service and make track work easier." That didn't fly either.
So now they quietly drop the trains, one by one...
It really is a shame about the LIRR. Is there a more half-hearted system in the Industrialized World?
Long Island desperately NEEDS the LIRR--or rather it needs a transit system that is an adequate alternative to the highly congested area roads. Not a godawful, incompetent system that keeps getting worse.
OK. That's my rant for today. :)
Long Island Bus is worse.
There is supposed to be a bus that leaves Glen Cove at 6:02pm weekdays. It is always late. Today it never showed.
This happens all the time, crowding on the N20/21 is getting worse.
LIRR may have it's problems, but compared to Long Island bus LIRR aint so bad.
It was one thing when buses ran 5 or 10 minutes late. Now they seem to run 20-30 minutes late, especially on the N20/21.
But I know, LIB riders don't have the $$ LIRR riders have so everybody on LI feels sorry for LIRR riders.
I betcha if you put most LIRR commuters on LI Bus for a week they'd be missing the LIRR alot!!
This r