On September 1, 1897, the Tremont Street Subway began running Between Park Street, Boylston, and I believe Arlington as well. This section of the subway is of course now apart of the Green Line. To all my fellow Boston riders: HAPPY ANNIVERSARY! -Nick
I had been on at least some sections of all Boston lines (Red, Blue, Orange and Green) during a weeklong visit to Beantown in the summer of ’88. My take on all this was: The third rails were always exposed (that is, with no cover on top a la New York), the Red Line had dimensions similar to the IND, the Orange and Blue IRT-esque, and Green Line reminiscent of trolley cars. To be sure, I was interested in all the differences.
Thanks for the reminder, Nick. I'll have to take a ride on the Green Line at lunchtime.
Here's a CBS News report from the 100th anniversary of the T done three years ago today.
My pleasure, Todd....and thanks for the cbs link as well. I hope you enjoyed your "century plus" ride :) -Nick
i would appreciate your ratings views suggestions opinions you liked these photos & or you hated them all etc... ( whatever & who ever )
also i just posted my ORANGE EMPIRE MUSEUM pics with most of the (PE)
los angeles pacific electric railway cars on display in the hot desert sun in riverside county, peris california usa..!!
also some new digital pics at 7th & metro center I recently bragged about !!
http://photos.yahoo.com/asiaticcommunications thank you very much for checking these pics !
Ridership is up on the HBLR, reports the
Star Ledger, to 5100 trips/day, up 35% from 3700/day in May. Officials had originally forcast 18,400 trips/day for this phase. The discrepancy reportedly comes from "bad planning estimates". Incentives are being undertaken until Dec 31 to increase ridership: free parking in park-and-ride lots and all-day riding for one $1.50 fare on weekends.
the Star Ledger
The statement in the linked article -- for a working link, please go to the original post -- that the segment from Exchange Place to Newport would be open in November inspired me to take another look yesterday.
The results: 1) The NB track still curves over onto the SB track at a switch south of Harborside. An incomplete tail end of the NB track starts a few feet north of the beginning of the curve and is continuous from that point at least to the point north of Newport where one loses sight of it on the elevated structure. The SB track is continuous from Exchange Place as far north as the eye can see it from ground level.
2) The catenary wire is up from Exchange Place to a point where the elevated portion crosses Newport Avenue (north of Newport Center).
3) Signals are in the process of being installed between Exchange Place and Newport.
4) Stations are substantially complete, with a small amount of finishing up remaining.
In sum, to a casual observer, it looks like they could open in two or three weeks. (That means that mid-November is probably a good guess.)
Regarding further extension, the steel work is in place as far as the earthen ramps on the north side of 18th Street and it looks like at least some preliminary work has started on refurbishing the disused rail bridge over Marin Blvd. The concrete deck is in place up to 18th Street.
Yesterday, around noon, while waiting at the 34th St/6th Ave. IND station for my usual D train a Q train pulled in. The conductor on this Q train did something I have never heard before. Before he made the annoucement regarding changing there for the shuttle I distinctly heard an unusual sound, you know the sound that whistling type sound they use on naval vessels before they make an annoucement sort of like woo-OOO-ooo.
I thought it was hilarious the conductor imitated it perfectly and people on the train paid attention to the announcement. Maybe they should consider installing it on new trains.
Peace,
ANDEE
Your refeing to a Bousins Whistle (I can't spell it), a tube with a bowl on the end. Place the ball just below your thumb on the pad of your hand, cover over with your hand. Open and close hand to get the rising and falling sound. I have one, when I crewed a 50ft Ketch that was slooped rigged on Long Island (Northport) when I was 16.
That Is All
Bos'n or boatswain
USE OF BOATSWAIN'S CALL
HISTORY.----- As far as English ships are concerned, the call can be traced back to the days of the Crusades, 1248 A.D. As far back as 1485 A.D., it was used by the English as an honored badge of rank, and was then worn by the Lord High Admiral of England. It was probably worn because it has been used as a method of passing orders. When the Lord High Admiral, Sir Edward Howard, was killed in action off Brest in 1513, a "whistle of honor" was presented by the queen mother of France to the officer who commanded the French galleys on this occasion. From about that time it was no longer worn as a badge of rank, and it reverted to it's original use and was employed only as a method of passing orders. About 1671 it was referred to as a "call" and by this name it has been known ever since. In our Navy it is often referred to as a "boatswain's pipe"
--- The Bluejackets' Manual 1943 (11th ed) (C) 1938,1939,1940.1943 U.S. Naval Institute, Annapolis, MD
***Legal Notice***
The above was a verbatim quote from the referenced work less than 400 words in length and proper source credit was given.
Bosun's whistle? Naw. I just use my lips on an angle from the mic plate so the wind doesn't distort the sound into the speakers.
I thought you were doing it yourself, good show!
Peace,
ANDEE
OK ok, That was me. I get frustrated sometimes, so it inspired me to creativity. I also flash the lights on and off at 34/6 too. It's the only way to get people's walkmans off and their haeds out of the newspapers. Otherwise they come up to me at 57/6 and say: "This is the last stop? Why wasn't there an announcement"?
Weekends on the D are worse with no Q, no B, no E, no F, D making local stops, C making express stops ad nauseum. As I am sure you noticed I make those annoucements slowly, clearly and loud. Yet there always seem to be a few idiots alongside the window who need to be led by the hand.
I make an announcement at 125 regarding local stops on the weekend D like this:
THIS TRAIN WILL MAKE AaaLLLLLLL L O C A L STOPS. ALL LOCAL STOPS. ALL STOPS ALL STOPS. 116, 110, 103, 96, 86, 81, 72 ALL LOCAL STOPS!
Yet there will still be a moron standing right there at the window actually listening to me say this who will ask: "Do you stop at 96"? I'd love to smack them, but I need to feed my family.
You should have heard the laughter one day at WTC E. I announced:
"Good evening ladies and gentlemen, this is the captain speaking. If you would return your seatbacks and tray tables to their upright position and fasten your seatbelts; we're ready for take off." Of course the local superintendent didn't find it quite so funny. They're too many anal retentive people in this place.
One afternoon on my commute home, the trains on Washington's Red Line were running late because of a computer glitch, and tempers were running high. When I finally got on the train, our T/O kept up a running commentary. When we pulled into especially busy transfer stations (Metro Center and Gallery Place), he would make an announcement that was something like this.
This is Metro Center, transfer point to the Blue and Orange lines on the lower level. Those on the platform, please let those departing the train to do so before you try to board. For everyone that leaves, it makes room for two more. Please squeeze in to the train. If you find someone you know, squeeze up next to them. If you don't, introduce yourself! "Hi, my name is Darrell." This is the Red Line to Silver Spring.
He kept up a fairly regular banter from Farragut North where I got on to Union Station, then it returned to the normal type of announcements. I think it lightened everyone's mood on the train. I think he missed his calling and should have been on the radio, but anyway . . .
I figured it was you when I saw the post!
A little bit of creativity can go a long way to improving morale, and getting the message across. I think the public generally likes it!
That ok they do that at 125 Street every afternoon. The Dispatcher and Conductor both say "This is a PELHAM EXPRESS, PELHAM EXPRESS,". But there are always some people that come up to ask in I'm an Express then I say yes then someone will say "Do you stop at Soundview Ave". It all comes with the 8 HRS.
Hey Erik, how many times while you're working do you notice some putz sitting 15 feet away from your position wearing a walkman that's so loud YOU can hear it? (Above the roar of the train among other things) You're always going to have people with their heads up their asses in these situations. After 13+ years I've resorted to just making one good, clear announcement regarding a service change, delay, etc. Whoever hears it, (ususally about 95% of the crowd) well good for them. Whoever dosen't hear it, tough sh*t.
That was you? I thought it was GREAT.
Peace,
ANDEE
I'll bet Michael Winslow could do it.:-)
Oh yeah, Michael Winslow could do any sound but, has anyone ever heard him talk?
Peace,
ANDEE
HI, Does anyone what line,what subway cars and what subway stations were used in the movie where were you when the lights went out?
HI, Does anyone know what lines,what subway cars and what subway stations were used in the movie where were you when the lights went out?
I remember that EYE was on the #7 just coming up under the East river and the power failed before we reached Vernon-Jackson, but our T/O let here roll so the the first car made it to the station. Then I had a long walk home that night. Eye was 1 of the lucky 1s.
Mr t__:^)
There is a train of R-1/9s signed up as an HH stranded in a tunnel. No stations. The conductor is played by the same fellow who played the Maytag repairman in all those commercials.
>>>The conductor is played by the same fellow who played the Maytag repairman in all those commercials<<<
Who, Jesse White (deceased) or the new one Gordon Jump?
Peace,
ANDEE
DAMN! It had to happen. The R-142 Test Train (6301-10) gave way on Day 17 of it's test run. Making it's way out of 241 St after 10 this morning, it made it's way into Manhattan, but suffered a failure (cause unknown to me), resulting in the train's exit from service and deadheading back to East 180th St Yard. It's time to reset the 30 day clock again....
-Stef
P.S. 6311-20 are on the road in testing as of this post.
(DAMN! It had to happen)
I was going to try and catch it today!!
Have a nice holiday !!!!
one of my spies claims that when 6311-6320 went by and was braking, that it made the sounds of an r9... he also claims that the interior was lit by incandescent light bulbs and that in place of the station locator display, there was a map from the late 1940's... he theorizes that in case the new technology cars do not pass acceptance by 2032, that the r1/9's will be remanufactured to celebrate their 100 year anniversary... they will have an r-142 exterior, but with all r1/9 interior components, thus ensuring that they will last forever....
LAL!
Oh boy... I see you're one of those who loves the past....
What's wrong with living in the past? Some things were better !!!
Like higher speeds on almost all lines (less timers for example)
Have a nice holiday !!
Heypaul, did this source make a tape recording?:-)
heypaul for MTA President!
heypaul, I think you're right!
I believe there is a special MTA Capitol Budget Program regarding the rebuilding of R-142's as R-1/9's in the event of complete system-wide failure of the R-142 test trains.
How very preceptive of you! ;-)
Doug aka BMTman
That's not what I heard - it's supposed to be dressed up as an R-16 inside, complete with slanted door pockets and peeling ceiling paint!
:o>
wayne
I can't say that I'm sorry to hear that...
Once all the equipment has been changed to that new-fangled "modern"
look, the NYC subway will be far less attractive (to me anyway).
Well that's technology for you. It's supposed to advance, not go backwards.
Remember the debacle with the R44/46's. The TA went back to the 'basics' and removed a lot of the high-tech stuff.
Have a nice holiday !!
Two questions:
1) What did they remove from the R44/R46?
2) What do you think they will remove from the R142/R142A?
And while we're on the subject, a 3rd question: is there anything in the R142/R142A that was removed from the R44/R46?
Yes, I remembered. However, you can't compare then with now.
More than 25 years ago, New York City had financial crisis. Little money caused deferred maintenance, which killed the subway system. It is hard to put high-tech stuff in the system right away. The philosophy of buying cars had changed because they really need new cars to replace the old ones.
TA introduced R110A and R110B in 1992. They had more than five years to get used to the high-tech stuff. They knew which technology worked the best in the system. They put a new philosophy of buying cars: know the new-tech first before placing a large order instead of being used as a white rat like the R44/R46 order.
Time is different now. You can use the R44/R46 as a painful experience, but you can't use these two orders as an excuse to reject new technologies.
Chaohwa
Stef i saw that train around after 11am today & they were heading back to 180th st Yard. I knew they have to reset the clock again.
Peace Out
David Justiniano
The R-142s have returned to service. They were spotted at 3:50PM, heading south into 149th St and 3rd Ave. Whatever the problem was, it was corrected quickly.
I also observed 6311-20, making it's rounds, and found a door on 6314, not functioning. They're (Bombardier, Kawasaki) gonna have to get this right sooner or later.
-Stef
Speaking of the R142 and R142A, the schedule is NOT accurate. There is a run in each direction I need to add for the 6 leaving Pelham Bay Park shortly after 6 and its return trip.
She was back on the road today; subway-buff and I spent over three hours on it today, going from Pennsylvania (at 9:28AM) to 241st Street, then to Flatbush Avenue and back to Hoyt Street (12:36PM).
A nice ride, no problems to report; the automatic annunciator made an error approaching 135th Street (which they corrected), the train was quick and smooth, the A/C worked well and it was actually rather comfortable. We rode in cars #6304, #6301, #6307 and #6310.
I saw four bunches of Kawasaki R142-a in the Unionport Yard. These were the 7226 bunch, 7236, 7241 and 7246 bunch.
wayne
Oops I forgot! - we had the pleasure of the company of Mr. Bill Newkirk aboard the R142 today, from southbound Pennsylvania to Flatbush and back to Atlantic Avenue.
The R142 does not make the same regenerative braking sounds as the R142A does.
wayne
09/02/2000
How soon we forget! A sign of old age ya know.
Anyway, my first ride on the elusive R-142's (Bombardier). Both trainsets (142 & 142A) share the same thing. the final stop when braking is a little rough. I did notice the the differences on the two trainsets interiors. Well, after departing Wayne and Subway Buff (Peggy), I split for the other Newkirk Ave (D)(Q) for a haircut on Newkirk Plaza upstairs. Then took the (D) to Prospect and the Shuttle to Botanic Garden for a #4. After boarding a #4 which took me to Brooklyn Bridge, the R-142A was pulling out as we pulled in. Stayed on until 14th St-Union Sq. where I caught it.
Rode both trainsets in one day, now I can sleep nights!
Bill "Newkirk"
I'm glad to hear you guys went out. Take any photos along the way? Thanks for the report.
-Stef
P.S. I'll post some stuff about R142A deliveries separately.
I thought I'd take the moment to share with those who are interested what I've observed regarding the R-142As, today, 9/02/00.
Passing on Metro North to Croton Harmon today for a photo shoot of FL9ACs and Commuter Coaches, the Kawasaki Car Plant was a flurry of activity. I'd estimate that there are about 20-25 142As sitting outside the facility with several still unassembled. 7209 is among those sitting outside. Testing was in progress with one set of cars. Just to tell you how far the car builder has progressed, you can find 7261-65, and 7271-75 at that location, among those waiting to enter the system. 7275 appears to be the latest car out of the plant, but I imagine that in no time, we'll be seeing 7300 series cars. The trackage outside of the plant appears rather small, but it's suffucient enough to do road tests. A few 5 car sets appear complete, with one set missing the lead A unit, and was attached to a small track mobile for movement.
There are no signs of any additional Bombardier Cars as of yet, but my eyes and ears are open.
At Unionport Yard, one can find, the R-142As, 7236-50, 7226-7230 with one 10 car train siiting on one track, and two 5 car sets sitting on other tracks. 7231-35 have apparently been released for testing as there is no sign of them at the moment.
An additional comment that I would like to make is regarding 7209 and 7210. The information on this site says that the contract of Kawasaki's begins with 7211. I think it's safe to say that the contract actually begins with 7201. We're bound to see a complete 7206-10 set at some time.
Production is coming along nicely. Anyone think the carbuilder or the TA is worried about the initial test trains not passing the 30 day tests? Think again. The cars are coming in...
-Stef
09/02/2000
[Passing on Metro North to Croton Harmon today for a photo shoot of FL9ACs and Commuter Coaches, the Kawasaki Car Plant was a flurry of activity. ]
Stef,
Is it safe to assume that the MARC bi-level production is over and all attention is now focused on the R-142A'S
Bill "Newkirk"
This appears to be the case. There wasn't a single shell to be found at the plant. Kawasaki's attention is now turned to the 142A project, and they'll be busy with that for several months.
-Stef
Where are the photos?
You're asking for photos? I don't think I can get anything out to the webmaster that fast. Plus, the photo shoot wasn't really being done by me, but by a friend who's interested in modeling Metro North equipment. We would have liked to have gotten a shot of the plant, but conditions weren't suitable enouugh. Take my word for it. Go to the Yonkers Station on Metro North. You'll find plenty of cars there.
-Stef
Unfortunately i live in Orlando,Fl, and i can't go to NEW YORK any-
time soon. Buy the way i am looking for some photos of meto north
GP-35R's, i have a KATO undec GP-35 i'am making it a MN can you
help, i will appreciated.
Thanks R-29.
No matter when the 30 day clock starts or stops, it is only a paper entry. The cars will be accepted no matter what. The TA is totally committed to these cars.
That's true. It would be nice if they could iron out the bugs on the cars, though.
-Stef
The same story is true here in Boston. The first Type-8 trolley from Breda was delivered on January 31, 1998 (over 2-1/2 years ago!) and they are still not running. While seven have been "accepted," they have been pulled from the rails while modifications are made.
Just as in NYC, it will eventually get worked out.
Believe it or not, the same thing happened with the Boeing 747. There were hundreds of test flights, which resulted in many modifications. Eventually, it received certification and is now a highly-reliable transportation machine.
Yea it's not a swap show very much anymore :-(
Too many into it for money now. Sat. the 9th I've commited to working on the R-17 at Branford, so I'll miss another of these shows, well maybe the next one.
BTW, my collection stands at 200 NYC MCs, plus 6 Transfers, 97 out-of-town MCs (I've made some friends at Atlanta, Chicago, Philly, Washington D.C. & Boston) & 9 foreign ones, plus 3 out-of-twn Trans & 2 foreign ones AND 24 tickets & 19 MC holders. And I'm most proud of the fact that I spent almost no money on them (not counting MCs bought & used in NYC).
P.S. Some of the cards in my collection have a very special meaning. I have a couple of otherwise not to special cards that a dear friend in Boston needs to turn in 11 of his 12 monthlys to get a break on his insurance, he's thought of me two years in a row. NEXT there is my set of LIRR Mail-N-Rides from 8 lines. The guy that I made the swap with was just starting up his collection, now he's into it more then me. ALSO I did a swap meet on the street (at 14th) with a guy who would only do it in person. I was on my way back to College Point from a meeting in Brooklyn. AND my friend in Atlanta probally saves his monthly cards in a drawer. When there is a bunch of them I get an envelpe. Recently he asked if I could provide a set Millennial Journeys for a friend of his in the office. I was glad to finally have the opportunity to re-pay his continued kindness. LASTLY there is a 1997 Yankee card that a SubTalker promised me, months went by, I followed up, then gave up, then there he was at a Swap Show with the card for me. These things have given me great pleasure out of this hobby.
Locat: Soldiers & Sailors Club 283 Lex. Ave. (at 36/37th), $2 @ door
Mr t__:^)
Went to City Search thinking I could get a new set of Emigrant MCs, I have the May 1998 (very nice), well they have several special ones, but NOT Emigrant.
They have Earth Day; US Open (4); Mets (4) & I think Uniqueness of Subways (tracks).
BTW, I have two of the US Open MCs but don't know the players that well, e.g since '99, since '97, etc. So can someone please tell me name vs. year ?
Mr t__:^)
I likely know less than you do about the players, but this is what I've come up with based on the two that I bought via City Search
Martina Hingus [$17 7 day] - Femme Fatale Since 99
Lindsey Davenport [$15] - Standing Tall Since 97
Michael Chang - Relentless Since 90
Patrick Rafter - Gladiator Since 94
Also, I've only found one Emigrant card at the MVMs thus far..."Puerto Rican Day Parade Beauty Queen NYC, about 1963"
09/05/2000
[Also, I've only found one Emigrant card at the MVMs thus far..."Puerto Rican Day Parade Beauty Queen NYC, about 1963"]
Be aware that an Italian (bocci game) and Chinese card is also out there. Both I were told were at one of the MVM's at Penn Station (IRT side).
Bill "Newkirk"
Thanks for the reply ... and nice photos they are too !
Mr t__:^)
With the imminent end of summer in a few weeks, can anyone rate the system car by car... R32, R40 etc. and give a grade for air conditioning?
I was on an R44 on which there was barely any air at all, and then I got a R40 (slant nose) that was an icebox...what a difference!
Why the difference in ac maintenance? Is one shop better than another?
www.forgotten-ny.com
Thermostat settings,coil cleanliness,refrigerant leakage and purity -- there are many factors which affect a system's effectiveness.
With the imminent end of summer in a few weeks, can anyone rate the system car by car... R32, R40 etc. and give a grade for air conditioning?
Best = R32, a slight edge over the R38 and R40.
Worst = tossup between R44 and R46.
Most of the other car types are about the same.
All 60' cars have (2) 9 ton units per car. One ton = 12,000 BTU
All 75' cars have (2) 10 ton units per car.
All 50' cars have (1) 12 ton unit per car.
There are differences in the equipment and there are differences in the skill levels at various shops. In general, Stone Safety equipment seems to be more reliable than the thhermoking and easier to maintain.
It seems R40s,42's,and R32's have the best A/C. Some of the worst can be found on the Redbirds used on the 7 line.
R46's also have pretty good A/C, as well as Hippos.
>>>R46's also have pretty good A/C, as well as Hippos<<<
as long as you sit under the lineal difusers
Peace,
ANDEE
The ends of the 75 footers may be a tad warm, but I still hate the A/C on Redbirds. Those circular diffusers are horrible.
Worst: Redbirds
Best: R40/CI overhauled R42's, Pitkin assigned R32's
Middle of the pack: R44/46/62/68/38/Jamaica R32's
Correction, I meant to include the MK overhauled R42's as the best AC'ed. The CI cars are some of the worst. Summer is the only time I go out of my way to sit in an R40M car on a J train.
Just out of curiosity, what was the criteria you used to make your evaluation?
Extensive riding of each car class oer several summers. Not scientific, but it gives me a pretty good idea.
The trouble is it's only a perception. The only true test is to see how close to the design criteria the system is operating. Anything else is meaningless. For example, I like a car to feel like a refrigerator. I'm sure that not everyone would like that. Hence, if a car was 65 degrees, I might like it but the HVAC should cut off below 72 degrees. Others may complain that 65 degrees is far too uncomfortable.
I give the entire RED LINE subway system a total failure los angeles does not have the extreme humidity & heat the MARTA rail system has to go up against !! Why all of the windows on all los angeles subway type etc...
RED LINE italian / breda subway cars here are sealed shut & you cant open any of them when the AC goes down & or half ass works which is all of the time & this makes no sense at all !
However I will give the shayro 1989 BLUE LINE cars a passing grade when it comes to AC being used to keep you cool !!
no matter how hot it gets out here in the los angeles county although we do not experence the high humidity as the east ( which i do not miss at all especially georgia & florida south carolina etc...
the light rail cars here beat the RED LINE subway hands down !! Now when you need some heat from these cars in the winter months it is a whole different story!! I do remember good heaters on all MARTA trains even in very cold weather down there !!
thankz salaam allah
I give the entire RED LINE subway system a total failure los angeles does not have the extreme humidity & heat the MARTA rail system has to go up against !! Why all of the windows on all los angeles subway type etc...
RED LINE italian / breda subway cars here are sealed shut & you cant open any of them when the AC goes down & or half ass works which is all of the time & this makes no sense at all !
However I will give the shayro 1989 BLUE LINE cars a passing grade when it comes to AC being used to keep you cool !!
no matter how hot it gets out here in the los angeles county although we do not experence the high humidity as the east ( which i do not miss at all especially georgia & florida south carolina etc...
the light rail cars here beat the RED LINE subway hands down !! Now when you need some heat from these cars in the winter months it is a whole different story!! I do remember good heaters on all MARTA trains even in very cold weather down there !!
thankz salaam allah
I give the entire RED LINE subway system a total failure los angeles does not have the extreme humidity & heat the MARTA rail system has to go up against !! Why all of the windows on all los angeles subway type etc...
RED LINE italian / breda subway cars here are sealed shut & you cant open any of them when the AC goes down & or half ass works which is all of the time & this makes no sense at all !
However I will give the shayro 1989 BLUE LINE cars a passing grade when it comes to AC being used to keep you cool !!
no matter how hot it gets out here in the los angeles county although we do not experence the high humidity as the east ( which i do not miss at all especially georgia & florida south carolina etc...
the light rail cars here beat the RED LINE subway hands down !! Now when you need some heat from these cars in the winter months it is a whole different story!! I do remember good heaters on all MARTA trains even in very cold weather down there !!
thankz salaam allah
I give the entire RED LINE subway system a total failure los angeles does not have the extreme humidity & heat the MARTA rail system has to go up against !! Why all of the windows on all los angeles subway type etc...
RED LINE italian / breda subway cars here are sealed shut & you cant open any of them when the AC goes down & or half ass works which is all of the time & this makes no sense at all !
However I will give the shayro 1989 BLUE LINE cars a passing grade when it comes to AC being used to keep you cool !!
no matter how hot it gets out here in the los angeles county although we do not experence the high humidity as the east ( which i do not miss at all especially georgia & florida south carolina etc...
the light rail cars here beat the RED LINE subway hands down !! Now when you need some heat from these cars in the winter months it is a whole different story!! I do remember good heaters on all MARTA trains even in very cold weather down there !!
thankz salaam allah
I give the entire RED LINE subway system a total failure los angeles does not have the extreme humidity & heat the MARTA rail system has to go up against !! Why all of the windows on all los angeles subway type etc...
RED LINE italian / breda subway cars here are sealed shut & you cant open any of them when the AC goes down & or half ass works which is all of the time & this makes no sense at all !
However I will give the shayro 1989 BLUE LINE cars a passing grade when it comes to AC being used to keep you cool !!
no matter how hot it gets out here in the los angeles county although we do not experence the high humidity as the east ( which i do not miss at all especially georgia & florida south carolina etc...
the light rail cars here beat the RED LINE subway hands down !! Now when you need some heat from these cars in the winter months it is a whole different story!! I do remember good heaters on all MARTA trains even in very cold weather down there !!
thankz salaam allah
Yep the Slants I rode today (and it looked like an all-Slant saturday out there) on the "L" were STONE COLD, but they drip like crazy inside, making the floor rather slippery.
We had some bum on the third "L" we rode today - he was sprawled out on a seat in car #4411 and then he had the unmitigated gall to light up a CIGARETTE as we left Wilson Avenue. And the bastard wouldn't put it out! We read him the riot act and we notified the cops at Bway Jct
wayne (SMOKE FREE FOR SIX MONTHS TO-DAY!)
When I was on a Flushing bound 7 train just after Queensboro plaza this evening, i smelt smoke from a pipe (I was at the window). So I peered into the cab through a little hole, and I saw the T/O smoking tobacco in a pipe!!
Knucklehead!
Some people think that "No Smoking" means "NO SMOKING CIGARETTES": It means no smoking ANYTHING: that means Cigarettes, Cigars, Tiparilloes, Papirosi, Pipes, Hookahs, Banana peels, grass clippings, marijuana, hashish or anything else for that matter!
I am so glad that I don't have to smoke, just for today.
wayne
I might add that the cops told us that they'd take the person off the train at the next stop.
I remind all:
1- No open alcholic beverages in the subway--beer, ale, wine, whatever- anything booze is no! Someone made the m,istake of drinking booze Tuesday night on a train I was on. I found the cops who were one car back and the person now has a rememberence!
2- NO smoking anywhere on the subway- this includes open air (el,open cut, surface running)platforms. I have had people removed for doing this. I know some employees( not me) smoke in the system but ther are disobeying the rules and even employees can get a summons from the Police. Smoking in the booth is also strictly prohibited (but unfortunately it is being done).
Police often ride the trains- either in uniform or in plain clothes, and they also stand on platforms. It is very easy for anyone to find an officer who will be glad to give an "easy ticket".
Also many a times I board a city bus and it smells like smoke. I've seen alot of drivers smoking on their breaks in buses.
Stengal seems to have this problem pretty bad.
With the imminent end of summer in a few weeks, can anyone rate the system car by car... R32, R40 etc. and give a grade for air conditioning?
I was on an R44 on which there was barely any air at all, and then I got a R40 (slant nose) that was an icebox...what a difference!
Why the difference in ac maintenance? Is one shop better than another...?
www.forgotten-ny.com
The modified R40s are good. The Coney Island R42 is terrible. Those are numbered 4840-4949 for those who don't know.
No R42s are assigned to Coney Island. All of them stored there are from East New York Yard. The R42s there are for M Train Service. Those cars there are different everyday.
That's the...
running on...
's
answers.
My good friend operates the R. He says the R32's are sometimes put on the F, especially during rush hours because believe it or not, I hear 10 60 foot R32s are longer than 10 75 foot R46's. I heard its once a blue moon, but u know the Subway always got Drama, so I wouldn't be surprised if I saw one. but next time, I had better have my Camera ready. Just like when I go R142 hunting.
Get this! The only shots of the R142 I have is at Pelham Parkway when they were being tested! I gotta get me some shots of those bad boys.
Ironically they are on my best 2 Favorite lines the 2 for its speed, and the 6 for its General areas it goes thru.
BY THE WAY, CAN U GUYS KEEP ME UPDATED ON WHEN THE R142A IS RUNNING AGAIN? I WANNA GET SOME GOOD SHOTS, ALSO, CAN U TELL ME WHEN AND IF THE R110B EVER RUNS AGAIN??
THANK YOU VERY MUCH
F TRAIN#5874 R46
2 TRAIN#8841 REDBIRD
[My good friend operates the R. He says the R32's are sometimes put on the F, especially during rush
hours because believe it or not, I hear 10 60 foot R32s are longer than 10 75 foot R46's.]
With the 75 footers the TA does not operate them in 10 car trains(R-44,46,68,68A). Eight of them makes a full train which is the same 600 feet as 10 60 foot cars.
Wayne
With the 75 footers the TA does not operate them in 10 car trains(R-44,46,68,68A). Eight of them makes a full train which is the same 600 feet as 10 60 foot cars.
Using the 10 60-footers will give you more doors, the better to handle big crowds.
Of course but there is more wasted space with the couplers. I realized this when someone bought this up the other day.
That's the...
running on...
's
comments.
I'll give you the exact dimensions.
R-32 = 60' 2 1/2" over the couplers so 10 car train = 601' 9"
R-46 = 74' 8 1/2" over the couplers so an 8 car train = 597' 7"
So in actuality, the motorman was correct.
As is oftebn stated here the 75 foot cars are a problem is reduced number of doors per train.
Question: I know there'd be a gap problem but here goes anyway: Could 12 IRT cars be used instead of 8 cars each 75 ft long?(yes- we could have an extension jamb on the outside of the cars to reduce the gap.)
Would it be simpler to have one width of cars and fewer parts to stock?(Yes- I know we have other cars and they'd have to serve out their life span).
Of course you'd have the best fleet--whatever size cars they give you!
The TA is roughly 12 trains short for full service through the 63rd st. connection. Fortunately the R-143s will be on line long before that happens thanks to the Manhattan bridge situation. However, I did suggest that the redbirds be used with extensions welded to the threshhold plates, widening them to B division standards. Not a smile in the room!!!!! As the old cash registers used to say, "NO SALE".
Or as they do on quiz shows, BUZZZZZZZZZ!!!
Regardless of the humor or historical precedent, it would be nothing less than an open invitation to the subway surfer morons.
The R142A should be out next week they had to rewire all the doors do to on going door problems.
Does that include the flock of R142A's which are sitting up at Unionport Yard?
The R142 was a nice ride, nice and peppy down the Broadway express, and the wheels sound almost EXACTLY like the R16's whose numbers they wear. In fact, from Chambers to Park to Fulton and also from Clark to Nevins, if I'd closed my eyes and just listened to the "moosic", I could have easily imagined myself in the OTHER #6304 or #6305. I also rode in #6301, #6307, and #6310. Not bad at all.
wayne
I wouldn't no if the defect effected the whole fleet. I will have to ask someone from Kawaski about that when I go back this week.
members.aol.com/bdmnqr2/linehistory.html
History of subway system from perspective of the routes (as we refer to them today). See what ran where way back when. Also covers unused letters and numbers!
Just wanted to note that there is a Burro Crane (it may be called something else, but that's what a TA worker-friend called it) on the SBK scrap track by the Fort Hamilton & 38th Street end of the TA yard behind Jackie Gleason Depot.
The unit is minus the huge crane structure. It looks to be in otherwise working shape, with the cab and undersidings appearing to be intact. This was a non-powered crane, so it would have been attached to a work motor while in service.
It looks like it might date back to the BRT days where it's bulky crane would have been used almost exclusively on EL structures, cuts or other rapid transit operations with the exception of subway work where it would have been too large to operate.
There was a huge, brass builders plate on the side. This much was made out:
'Build by the Brown Machinery Co., Cleveland, Ohio USA'.
There was no date of the building on the plate (unless it faded over the years).
Can anyone help with details on this unit?
Doug aka BMTman
Did you get a picture?
On a hunch I went through some ERA documents on the South Brooklyn Railway and found the description of two pieces of equipment that relate to the car I saw at 38th Street. They are IDed as Derrick Cars #9006 and 9007 which were built by the Brown Hoist Co. (9006 in 1910; 07 in 1913).
There was no marking that indicated which unit it was, but the car must've had a long life with NYCT for them to just now be discarding it.
BTW, the Derrick Car is in MOW yellow with the 70's 'M' logo on the cab sides.
Doug aka BMTman
On a hunch I went through some ERA documents on the South Brooklyn Railway and found the description of two pieces of equipment that relate to the car I saw at 38th Street. They are IDed as Derrick Cars #9006 and 9007 which were built by the Brown Hoist Co. (9006 in 1910; 07 in 1913).
There was no marking that indicated which unit it was, but the car must've had a long life with NYCT for them to just now be discarding it.
To put things in perspectively, consider three things:
1) The BMT Standards were one of the longest-lived car classes.
2) Even so, the Standards have been gone for over thirty years.
3) This crane, just now being withdrawn from service, was around before the Standards!
The Brown Hoist crane was actually used in service until 1986, when it was withdrawn due to some sort of accident. It originally had a trolley pole, but it was modified to run off a long jumper cable along the track where its been sitting for the last 24 years.
Someone took apart the controller, and removed the boom, which is lying next to it. If you look closely, the turret is cocked at a bad angle, which is probably why it wont run, aside from the missing controller parts. I would venture a guess that the main drive shaft is bent, and thats why it cant be moved. I think a fellow with the initials of M.H. knows all about it.
The builders plate says it was built in 1910.
Oh you mean him? Well then, that's a piece of equipment that's not going to waste....
-Stef
Stef, it sure will. What the heck is anybody going to do with a nearly 100 year-old, non-motorized crane, without a working boom?
It would best become a static display, elsewhile it's part could be caniballized to benefit the needs of equipment from a similar time period in a museum collection.
Doug aka BMTman
Seriously? That Brownhoist crane is still on transit property?
I thought it was gone years ago. The two DifCo cranes didn't
last that long and they are much better units.
Oh yes, its still rusting in the same spot.
That sounds like the electric crane the TMNY is supposed to be taking delivery later this year. The boom assembly is still inside the yard. I'll forward this post to see if I can confirm.
It isn't a Burro crane. Burros have the word "Burro" cast into the counterweight along with "Built by the Cullen-Freistedt Co. Chicago"
Right. But my TA friend claims the MOW guys just call it a 'Burro Crane' as a nickname.
I ended up identifing the crane earlier this morning as an old South Brooklyn Derrick Car dating back to 1910 or 1913. There are two units that were built and the one I saw did not have a car ID number to confirm which one it is.
Hopefully, someone here at SubTalk can help me out.
Doug aka BMTman
Hello Everyone,
I am pleased to announce that Saturday, September 16, 2000 is the tentative date I have for the tour. Before it is finalized, I want bring the following to your attention. There are two shows that day, Liberty State Park and Hoboken. I believe that the Transit Museum is also holding the BusFest that day.
Now here is the problem, If I ask for a different date, I am told that the next available day is in late October. What I ask is that those who are interested in going mail me at: DTYPE6112@WEBTV.NET And tell me if 9/16 is good or to wait until October. I will post a decision in a few days after I see the general feeling of those involved.
Thanks,
-Mark W.
Since you have Hoboken, Liberty State Park AND Bus Fest all in that same weekend, it might more sense to hold it another weekend where there aren't as many potential conflicts or choices....Just my opinion...
October is the way better move, then we can say we had three action packed months:
August: Redbird Trip
September: NYCMTA Bus Fest, NJT Try Transit Fest, and Liberty State Park
October: Coney Island Tour
Trevor Logan
www.transitalk.com
09/02/2000
I must agree with Trevor and Lou. With the weekend of the 16th booked up, why not forestall it until October. The temperatures will be cooler also. So I say October for the tour.
Bill "Newkirk"
I agree with the crowd. October seems like a better date.
That's the...
running on...
's
two cents.
i think you should have the open house on the same day as the other 3 events... lately, i have been pretty depressed and don't have the energy to do anything... i think it would be easier if on one day i could miss 4 separate events and have it over with on one day , rather than to spread the disappointment over several different days...
Aye.
...Agreeing with heypaul
That's more scary then funny ... please tell us you were trying to be funny !
BTW, I vote for October too.
Mr t__:^)
thurston... yeah i was mostly trying to be funny... thanks for caring...
The tour will NOT be held on 9/16.
A new date will be announced in the next week or two.
-Mark
Sat Oct 21 is not good because of the ERA trip.
You the man.
I think a better date would be Saturday, September 14, 2002, when my plate will not be as full.
Mark, please try and re-schedule for the two years, when I'll be ready.
Doug aka BMTman
...signed a 2 year deal
with the Yawnkees, Doug?
As of Sept 1 the R142A hit the road again. I had the train for 3 Trips and the train ran great. I Normally don't get the train on the last trip but the T/O who takes the 2:52 was off and the T/o assigned to the job was not R142 Qualified.
I been running the R142A so long its no longer in my eyes a new train.
There are thing I like about operating the R142A.
1. It is alittle faster then some of the other current trains out there and better braking.
2. The cars have great A/C it nice to have a cool operating car then a hot redbird. The only good thing about hot cars is they keep the trouble makers out.
3. The computer tells me where I'm at and the car Nos. on the train.
4. If there are any problems the computer will give you the affected car. That will speed up delays.
This train can help the crew or hurt you.
If the train hit a red or overshots a station that is recorded in the black box. The the T/O puts the train in Emergency its recorded.
This train is also designed for one Person Operation and NO Person Operation.
dave... how are you doing?....what do you mean by no person operation?? do you mean what the cars have been doing for the last week or so--- carrying no people?
When I say No Man that means No T/O or C/R. The train can be activated to run by its self. The RCI said they just need to put the Wire in.
dave... do you have any nightmares of the computer saying to you: "dave, please step out onto the platform for a moment" and then the train drives off...
what did the rci mean when he said they just need to put the wire in to have the train operate by itself? wouldn't they have to rebuild the whole signal system to accomplish this?
assuming they did this, how would an automatic train operation detect debris on the track, workers on the track, etc...
The computer would recognize that the wheels were no longer contacting the rails, would cue the announcement that passengers who were able to move should exit the train, and would change the destination sign to "shop".
"The computer would recognize that the wheels were no longer contacting the rails, would cue the announcement that passengers who were able to move should exit the train, and would change the destination sign to "shop"."
hey... that made me laugh harder than my own posts... good show...
Yes they do need to redo the signals. However on the No.6 Line the work is half done. The Bronx side is ready from 3AV- 138 St to Pelham Bay Park. They did build a New Tower which is Westchester Master Tower born in 1998. Also has New Signal Syserm and switches. I did get a tour of the Master Tower and I have to say its nice. Its like a Mini Control Center. If a train hit any signal an alarm will sound. It can even tell how fast a train is going over a switch. It may even be more Modern then the current Control Center. The Communication between the Train Crew and the Master tower is very good. You can hear the master tower better then Control Center. The Tower did replace 4 Towers which where Pelham Bay,Westchester's old tower, Parkchester, and Hunts Point towers.
How would the train Detect Debris and other Workers?
I don't have a complete answer but I think there will be someone on the train but will be there just to stop the train in case anything like what you said happens. It will be like the T/O just being a train Babysitter. So T/O's would not have to worry about losing there postions but none or the less it takes the fun out of the job. Think about all the new timers that been put up to control the trains speed.
I don't like any of this but thats the way Transit is shaping up and with new Technology it will happen.
The next big master tower will be E 180 St. That will control everything from Jackson on up.
This system aka CTC? Of course it isn't that new. IIRC the whole 7 line was controlled from one place..or the whole Queens portion was. City Hall BMT, Essex BMT, the IRT Broadway going back to my NYCT days 23 years and more ago. Didn't 96 St control the entire upper Broadway? or was it Times Sq. Its been a long time. Of course nothing as sophisticated as you described.
On the big roads they've controlled hundreds of miles of line from one location, for example all of Montana Rail Link controlled from Missoula. Of course there are probably more powered switches on one long subway route as there are on all of MRL.But essentially it is a Centralized Traffic Control.
Do I have Nightmare Not Really but it almost happened at Pelham for Real the train was charged up and ready to go but the Problem was no one was in the operating cab. A T.S.S was the one who reported that.
Sounds like a flashback of almost 40 years. The automated 42 Street shuttle train.
09/02/2000
[This train is also designed for one Person Operation and NO Person Operation]
P.B.Dave,
Well, ONE person operation is OPTO as we know it. But NO person operation, isn't that the same as ATO? That means NOBODY is operating it! Please explain.
Bill "Newkirk"
Exactly. How hard is that to understand?
09/02/2000
I do understand, however, if Pelham Dave states that the R-142's are capable of NO PERSON operation (ATO) that's a new one on me. I thought that ATO was a thing of the past that never really got off the ground with the R-44/46's (pre-GOH).
Bill "Newkirk"
Well, I doubt it can run using the current system, it would need an extensive new signal installation, the kind that the Second Avenue Subway was supposed to have. I wonder what happened to that?
The R-142/143 are supposed to revive the continuing degree of technological advancement that the R-44/46 failed at providing.
I think you answered you own question.
When the small black wall signs at Canal St station had Chinese
characters under them (just one set of characters) did the characters
say "Chinatown" or the phonetic characters for "Canal St."?
These have been replaced by mosaics now. I want info, a picture,
or a sign. Any or all would be appreciated!
Thanks!
In the following format...
Canal Street <3 Characters><2 characters>
The 3 characters mean chinatown. It is pronounced "Tong Yun Guy"
The other 2, I have no clue.
That's the...
running on...
's
help.
The other two is pronounced "Wa Foul"
The exact meaning I am uncertain. Perhaps someone (Chao-Hwa?) can fill me in.
Nick
In mandarin Chinese, it is pronounced "Hua Pu", which means "Chinatown".
Chaohwa
Great info, guys! But on the smaller signs that USED to be up, there
was only one set of characters. Did they say "Chinatown?" I was
told that the second set of characters at the platform for the J,M,
Z trains is a "sound alike" for Canal St. sort-of?!
But I need to know about the smaller signs that they took down.
It probably said "Chinatown", right?
Thank you so much!
That's right. The three characters in the J/M/Z platform are pronounced "Jian Ni Jie," which is the Cantonese translation of Canal Street.
This is my guess. What you want is the two Chinese characters called "Hua Pu," another description of Chinatown. Usually we Chinese call Chinatown "Chung Guo Cheng."
Chaohwa
Mr. Chen, Do you remember the old signs they took down with the
single set of characters? I am trying to re-create those signs. I picture those characters UNDERNEATH
the English "Canal St" and only 3 characters. Were those 3 the ones
that mean "Chinatown?" Just trying to be certain. I don't want to
get it wrong, and have chosen the wrong set of characters, making
my recreation inaccurate!
Anyone?
Sorry, I was not back to the U.S. until 1992, so I may not know the old sign you are looking for.
However, could you give me the impression of the first of the three characters? Is the first character of the sign very simple to you, like a cup-like character pierced by a pencil?
If so, the three words are indeed "Chinatown," if not, the three words are "Jian Ni Jie," the Cantonese translation of "Canal Street."
Chaohwa
Mr. Chen,
Unfortunately, I cannot remember exactly what the Chinese characters looked like. They were on the walls until 1998 or 1999
when they began to re-do the Canal St. Station. Now the only Chinese
characters I can find on a black sign are at the J,M,Z platform where
both sets of characters are used. Do you remember when all of the
signs on the walls of the station had ONE set of characters underneath? I had always thought it said "Canal St" in Chinese.
But I don't read or speak the language (though my grandfather did!)
I now think it may have said "Chinatown."
Anyone??
Based on what you said, I am sure that the three words are the Cantonese translation of "Canal Street."
I remembered that when I walked through the unused Broadway Express platform last year, the Chinese characters are "Jian Ni Jie."
Chaohwa
Dear Chaohwa,
I am still a little bit nervous. Are you completely sure? This
is very important. I hope that my saying "I always thought it said
'Canal St' in Chinese characters" did not steer you wrong. Because
it was just a guess. When someone else mentioned "Chinatown" that
made sense too! Sorry to be such a bother, but I've looked everywhere
I can think of including the Transit Museum for this info.
If you remember seeing those black signs, and are sure it didn't
say "Chinatown" that is what I've been looking for confirmation about.
Then I could get a photo of the characters from the sign on the J,M,Z
platform and eliminate the second set which say "Chinatown?"
Yes, I did see the black sign with "Canal Street" Chinese characters only on the J/M/Z platform and the Broadway Express platform.
The format is like this:
Canal Street (Chinese characters in Canal Street [Jian Ni Jie] from left to right)
No Chinatown characters [Hua Pu] in the above sign.
Before the platform renovations on the Broadway Local line, the black sign was like this:
Canal Street (Chinese characters in Canal Street [Jian Ni Jie] from left to right) (Chinese characters in Chinatown [Hua Pu] from up to down)
Chaohwa
Mr. Chen,
Thank you very much for your exacting response!
Subway grrl
As I already replied to your questions twice.
The old sign on the Bway local and express platoform only
had the two-charactered "Hua Pu" meaning "China Town"
No no no.....
In mandarin Chinese, the first three Chinese characters are pronounced "Jian Ni Jie," which is the Cantonese translation of Canal Street. Cantonese is one of the Chinese dialects.
The next two Chinese characters are called "Hua Pu," which are another description of Chinatown. Usually we call Chinatown in mandarin Chinese "Chung Guo Cheng."
Chaohwa
Last nignt I rode the BLUE LINE here in los angeles took "nightshot"
experemental prototype shots with my new sony cybershot dsc s30
piced up a interesting flyer with photos etc & a nice motorman operator!
{M metro rail 10 years moving LA}.signs posted on all BLUE LINE rail cars. I remember riding the BLUE LINE here
on the first free ride runs aprox 10 years ago, 1990-91 all of the photos are here on..
http://photos.yahoo.com/asiaticcommunications
In my opinion & the opinion of many the BLUE LINE got it right was built in the right place ( not like the RED & GREEN lines ) why the "green" refuses to go to the airport LAX ( check out my photos ) &
more to come! So anyway just to let you know the re - introduction
of a weak attempt ot restore the PE system we never should have lost
is now 10 years old ....Wooopeee.!!! ...( what do you think senior? )
yes no ??......
I just popped in a cassette of "North by NorthWest". The opening scenes show various views of New York City around 1959. It is amazing to see what a colorful city it was back then and how much we've given up for the sake of conformity, uniformity and merger. Busses and cabs were most notably multi-colored affairs in bright reds, yellows, greens and beige. Not a blue and white bus or a solid yellow cab among them. What a shame - it's too bad we've become so conformity minded.
steve... i am elated... you appreciate what my mission here at subtalk was... eliminate uniformity and introduce eccentricity.....
Actually, I'd be happy if the TLC would go back to the period where taxis did not have to be all yellow or livery cabs didn't have to be all black. I'd suggest that the NYCT stop painting their busses blue & white but they'd likely screw it up and make things more drab. If that is excentricity, then perhaps we've found our common ground. You think????
"You think????"... steve, do my posts reflect much in the way of thought?
hey, what's with the 4????...
seriously, i would agree that variety adds a lot to the passing scene... one of the queens bus companies, i think triboro, has a real spiffy looking paint scheme... i was down by greyhound and some of the buses have some really colorful bus wraps which catch the eye... i guess you remember in the 50's when the taxi cabs were two toned, and in fact many cars were too...
if i wasn't so self conscious, i think i might just go down to the village tomorrow and have my hair dyed purple...
"You think", meaning do you think we've found an area of common ground - not, "Do you think". Sorry that it didn't come across more clearly.
Even triboro's brown & white scheme isn't what I meant. See if you can catch the opening scenes of the movie, - up to where Cary Grant goes into the Plaza Hotel and you'll see how colorful NY once was.
[if i wasn't so self conscious, i think i might just go down to the village tomorrow and have my hair dyed purple... ]
...and hop on the 7 train to Shea when the Atlanta Braves are in town, lean over the dugout, and ask John Rocker if he knows anybody in Hotlanta who has a MARTA cab mock-up in his spare room. :o)
Steve, it ain't even paint. NYBus paints the bus white (may add black window area) and then applys a blue Mylar stripe to the bus. Our MTA in Baltimore does the same thing. It's cheap, and if you leave out the masking for the black window mask, there's no masking to do at all.
When the MTA here rebuilt the body on our (BSM) PCC, 7407, the paint shop did the body in Imron in the correct colors (we supplied the color numbers so they could order the correct colors), and the car was a 3 mask job. 1.) Paint roof tan, mask. 2.) paint window area cream, mask. 3.) paint body color, Alexandria Blue (Looks like green, cars were referred to as "Green cars") 4.) mask body and window colors for belt rail stripe, paint Orange. 5.) Mask roof and window colors, paint 1/2" green stripe to divide roof and window.
That's a FIVE mask job and the paint shop loved doing it. After painting buses white with a black window mask, it was a challenge!!
Well, the guy at the hobby shop in Bismarck keeps picking on me for the same thing, I will only buy BROWN box cars for my model railroad, and all of my passenger cars are BROWN with orange fronts. All of the Locos are also BROWN with orange fronts ala the old LIRR except brown car bodies insted of gray.
For a model it just makes more sense (according to me) this way your eye does not rest on some outlandish car, but rides back and forth on the whole train, which seems to me to make it look longer.
Elias
Not to mention that North By Northwest is one of Hitchcock's best and one of Cary Grant's best roles; ditto for Charade which has some Paris Metro scenes BTW.
For the railfan there are a few neat scenes on the NYCentral going up the Hudson, and GCT.
As for drabness and what cars looked like back then w're sure in a land of look alike autos, with a few exceptions, has been that way for most of ten years.
09/02/2000
R-68 #2726
I rode in this car on the (D) today and noticed something unusual. I noticed that both side roll sign boxes had different covers. The ones on all the R-68's are a little past flush with the fiberglass window bezel, beveled edges also. The ones in this car was recessed about a 1/2 an inch from the surface. There was screws every few inches showing how it was fastened to the bexel and painted the same tan color as the R-40/42's etc. Both signs had the larger type letters and numbers like the R-68A's. The other 3 cars in the trainset didn't follow suit and were like the usual R-68's. Does anyone know anything about #2726 and this type of sign box modification ?
Bill "Newkirk"
I've seen it before. There are 6 kinds of rollboxes on the R68s.
1) Standard R68 rollbox.
2) Standard R68 rollbox with the upgraded signs.
3) R68A rollbox installed correctly painted TA yellow.
4) R68A rollbox installed backwards.
5) Standard R68 rollsigns with a sheet of steel covering it.
6) No rollsign at all.
That's the...
running on...
's
answer.
I think that car had been damaged early on, (or I may be thinking about 2755) and I guess it got a new sign box similar to the R-68A, and it was crudely painted.
That was 2755, 2579, 2805, and 2807 that were ever damaged.
That's the...
running on...
or
's
corrections.
2726 also has a couple of strange numberboards. That car was a north motor on a N train some years back one day. Remember when they had the continuous welded rail (CWR) plant at Fort Hamilton Pkwy on the N line? One day, the crane somehow got into the path of and struck 2726. The crane operator was thrown out of his seat and eventually died from his injuries. After that, no more CWR plant at that location.
09/03/2000
Bill Maspeth,
Was #2726 out of service for any period of time? Maybe the original sign boxes were cannibalized?
Bill "Newkirk"
It was out of serviced for quite some time. There was major body damage, lot of sheet metal work was needed. As for the numberboards, perhaps one was destroyed, the other one could be in someones' collection!
where was the CWR plant and are there any signs of it being there?
I said it in my original post: Ft. Hamilton Pkwy N line, north end of the station what would be the Manhattan bound express track. There is no sign of it anymore. Welded rail is now being done at Linden Yard, inaccessable to the public.
The only car that I've seen that ever had strange number boards was 2755.
That's the...
running on...
or
's
2 cents.
And that's only on ONE side of the car, that being the side that was damaged in the collison with the flat-car. They replaced the laminated plaque with the stick-on numbers they use on the older cars.
I have heard that someone thought #2755 was a total wreck and took the plate before the repair was made. There was quite a gash in #2755's side, right about at the beltline and running parallel to the ground.
wayne
On my trip to Garden State Plaza (via N21,7train, and NJT#163)I went through Flushing. The Willets Point station was much busier than normal, but most people coming by transit took the 7 from Manhattan directions. In the morning, Queens bound 7 trains were pretty crowded. In the evening, it was Manhattan bound 7 trains that were crowded, I could see some door holding delaying trains out of Willets.
While it was very busy in and around Flushing-Meadows Park, it appears most people still came by car, as there was much more people on the ramps going to the parking lots, than to the subway station.
There was much more traffic in and around Flushing, however, especially in evening, there weren't that many people walking around.
It appears downtown Flushing benefits little from baseball and tennis events nearby.
Most people just drive through, probably because Flushing's negative stigma (easily visible) deters outsiders. Wendy's will probably never re-open, even though I did put up a short letter to urge people to get it to re-open.
It's really a pain in the you-know-what that Wendy's is closed. When I come off the 7 train I'm hot and I want a Frosty and some water (tap).
Believe it or not, no place in Flushing gives you water for free. McDonald's now charges $1.40 for a small container of bottled water! I really told them off when they pulled that on me!
I mean it's so inconvenient, I have to go out of my way for Wendy's (to Pathmark shopping center or Bayside).
I hate McDonald's, I WANT WENDY'S TO RE-OPEN! I put in my short note:
"Please re-open this Wendy's. This has gone on for too long. You're needed here!"
There's no excuse that there's no Wendy's there. I got one thing to say, FLUSHING SUX!!!
Alright, enough about my ranting. I'll just have to be inconvenienced because people in Flushing don't know how to move on.
Also I saw a 7 train sitting on the middle track just east of Willets point, probably an extra train for U.S. Open. And the 7 trains look like they are back to 11 cars, and the hot car had hardly anyone in it!
GSP mall was nice though, nice mix of people, alot of asians (alot of beautiful girls!), and while it was crowded there was no riff-raff like in Roosevelt Field. When it's too hot in Chinatown for "girl watching" Garden State Plaza is a great alternative!
There's a Wendy's at 94th St. and Northern Blvd. You could take the Q72 from Junction Blvd. station to get there and take the Q66 from there to Main St. That's a more direct route than going to Bayside!
FLUSHING SUX!!!
Then why do you always go there?
Maybe for the Dim Sum.
Aw, c'mon Pigs, did you notice he never once mentioned Sea Cliff in that long letter?
When I come off the 7 train I'm hot and I want a Frosty and some water (tap).
Believe it or not, no place in Flushing gives you water for free. McDonald's now charges $1.40 for a small container of bottled water! I really told them off when they pulled that on me!
That's not really true. You can go inside Stern's, go to where the elevator is, and to the right is a water fountain for free.
Well yes there is the water fountain in Stern's, that is if they are still open by the time I get there. And I still want a Frosty!
When it's too hot in Chinatown for "girl watching" Garden State Plaza is a great alternative!
I must say, I've never heard Chinatown mentioned as a place for girl watching ...
I guess not many men see the beauty of Chinese and Asian women.
For me, they seem to put a big, big spell on me.
And they also tend to date shorter men(like me), unlike most American women which have height complexes.
The women in Chinatown (and sometimes Flushing) are both beautiful on the inside and out, unlike most American women.
But that's enough, this is way off topic...
Most subtalkers remember the incredibly wordy exterior subway signs that showed every possible potential connection you could make from the particular station they were placed at. Typically they were blue and white, or green and white, and mounted on the railing opposite the staircase. I have a picture or two on the subways category in...
www.forgotten-ny.com
Anyway I viewed Tina Turner's video "What's Love Got To Do With It", which was shot in NYC, for the first time in memory recently. She passes a station with one of the signs.
What year did all of them come down, to be replaced by the bland black and whites?
When the 60st tubes get closed, why do they insist on not running trains to Queens at all? This overcrowds the E, F, and 7. I propose 2 alternatives:
Plan 1
N1 - Coney Island to 21st Queensbridge
N2 - Astoria to Queensboro Plaza
Sections are Connected by Shuttle Bus
R - 95st Bklyn to 71st/Continental, via Manny B and 6 ave
Plan 2
Same as plan 1, except R's northern terminal is also Queensbridge, and the shuttle bus will have an additional stop at Queens Plaza. The G will be extended to 71/Continental to pick up the R passengers.
Why are the 60th street tubes being closed? Last time I was down there all looked fine from the front window.
Maybe they're putting in more grade timers or wheel-detectors!
(just kidding). Seriously, don't know why the G.O. I can check with my G.O. source and find out.
wayne
Perhaps it is a switch replacement. Trains seem to be a little slower lately at the switch just before the east portal, where R diverges from N.
[Maybe they're putting in more grade timers or wheel-detectors! ]
Please, noooooo! Flying thru there on a non-rush-hour R32 or an R68 is one of the best rides in the system! :o)
If the 63rd street tunnel is open to two way service by then.
That's the...
running on...
or
answers.
That's true! It's actually supposed to open for reroutes very soon! This month or next, in fact.
I doubt about next month. Before it can open, new signals between 23/Ely & 36th St. must be cut in as well as interlocking controls to QueensBoro Master Tower. This will mean additional weekend service shutdowns on the E/F from Queens Plaza to across 53rd St. With the upcoming weekend service interruptions on the N & R in the 60th St. tube, both routes can't be closed at the same time.
...both routes can't be closed at the same time...
Yes they can, my favorite GO of all time was:
E - Jamaica CTR - Roosevelt Ave, Express
F - 2 sections: 179st - Roosevelt Ave, Local, 42nd/6th - Coney Island
R - 59st Bklyn - 95st Bklyn
No service at all between Roosevelt Ave and Manhattan, Lexington/60th. I believe the reason for this was extensive signal work around Queens Plaza. This was in Summer of '98.
What was the N doing that day?
Right, I forgot:
R - Astoria to 95st Bklyn
N - Astoria to Coney Island
Ah well, I guess they can't close both tubes simultaneously after all.
You know, my problem with Slick Willie wasn't that he got a blow job. My problem was that Clinton and his party in 1993 pushed through the largest tax hikes in the history of the federal government. And to add insult to injury for the first time in American history a tax hike was retroactive.
The firing of the travel office staff who were civil servants (some there for decades) and not political appointees so Hillary could bring in her cronies from Arkansas. The suspicious death of Vince Foster, Clinton's lawyer. Unauthorized possession by a Clinton staffer of FBI personnel files. The Whitewater land deal. Hillary's amazing transformation of a $1,000 investment into a $100,000 profit (nice trick!) Nuclear secrets "allowed" to be passed on to China in exchange for campaign contributions for the 1996 elections.
And last but most important: the reason why Bill Clinton is loosing his lawyer's license and why he was impeached by congress. He PERJURED himself in a legal proceeding. Sure politicians lie. They all do. But at least most of them won't do it under oath!
Sure George Washington had some trysts. Thomas Jefferson slept with his slaves. Hell; he OWNED slaves. Benjamin Franklin liked to hang around naked and Alexander Hamilton was killed in a childish pistol duel with Aaron Burr. But whatever their personal faults were, the founding fathers cannot ever be compared with the Clintons.
These people were the creative genius behind the
greatest social experiment in history to succeed. Up to that point in time democracy hadn't been tried in millenia, and then not in the scope we enjoy here. They framed the constitution, a unique and incredibly dynamic document with amazing ideas for the time: all men are created equal. The founding fathers suffered for their vision. The British pursued these men and imprisoned many. Some lost their fortunes and died penniless. In almost every case they gave far more to the new America than they received. Truly selfless acts.
Compare this with a lying pair of con artists whose sole purpose in seeking political office is to gain power and personal wealth. Truly selfish acts.
No brainier. If the first congress were still in session, Bill Clinton would have been impeached and in jail. And NOT for a blow job.
09/03/2000
Yes your rant was waaay off topic.......but I can't help but agree with you.
Bill "Newkirk"
1) I prefer Presidents who lie and are sneaky. They get more done and are more effective on the international scene (remember the "moralistic" Jimmy Carter disaster)
2) What I can't stand in politicions are people who lie by telling the "truth". In terms of total dollars I'm sure it was the largest tax hike. But there's something called inflation and there are different kinds of taxes. Unless you can tell me that it was the largest % increase for the MAJORITY of WORKING americans you can take your little statement and stick it up your ass because I hate it when people misrepresent facts to get other people to believe that they were "harmed" and then to pursuade them to march happily down the road to disaster. Its a trick right out of the Ioesheph Stalin playbook. Hey, why don't you try to start a panic by telling people that the government set a record in spending last year too.
3) The information was illegagly obtained they had not right to a truthful answer. Legal or not, that's how I see it. You can't make up a lawsuit (the case was dismissed) just to interview someone about their private life under oath. Its plain wrong.
Plain and simple, good guys finish last. Cheaters always win and winners always cheat. No matter who the president is, I want a winner.
BTW I love the look on a tax-cut nut's face when I tell them how my $80 state income tax cut cost my family about $1000 in property taxes due to decreased state local spending. The cut shifted the tax from those who could pay to those who couldn't pay. I lost several friends when they had to move away due to high property taxes. I didn't find a new freind in my rebate cheque.
To me Morality and ethics are very important in a president. You call Jimmy Carter's presidency a fiasco however I'll take Carter over Johnson, Nixon, Reagan, Bush, and Clinton ANY day!!!
He was pure evill. He gave back the canal and forgot that the Shaw was on our side. It took fiasco like Carter to let the republicans recover from Nixon. That's how bad he was. Imagine if we still had a puppet govermnemt in Iran this current gas crunch would be non-existant.
But Carter was a HUMAN BEING first. Most Presidents don't have an ounce of humanity in them. IMHO, Jimmy Carter is one of the most under-rated Presidents in recent memory.
Doug aka BMTman
IMHO, Jimmy Carter is one of the most under-rated Presidents in recent memory.
And in my humble opinion,it is well deserved. While I think his work with Habitat For Humanity is commendable, he was the weakest president of the 20th Century (including Eisenhower).
Jimmy Carter shares with Herbert Hoover as a President who accomplished much more after he left office.
Lets face it. The road to the Presidency is so long, so expensive and so arduous that those who who would serve the country with honor and wisdom usually decide that it is not worth the pain.
So whoever we elect is most likely not the best for the country oveall.
IMHO, Jimmy Carter is one of the most under-rated Presidents in recent memory.
And in my humble opinion,it is well deserved. While I think his work with Habitat For Humanity is commendable, he was the weakest president of the 20th Century (including Eisenhower).
Carter also happened to be in office at a very bad time. The country was still suffering from the effects of Watergate and Vietnam, which translated into a general distrust of government and a very weak military.
That's right, Peter. Had he came along at this point in history, I think he'd be seen in a better light -- and may have accomplished quite a bit while in office.
Doug aka BMTman
Back to square one Jimmy Carter was a human being. That was one election I didn't vote for Carter or Ford so had no choice for president. Maybe his honestly [if lacking competence] was his downfall.
As an afterthought on Peter Rosa's post..is there much trust in gvoernment now [depending on who admits their feelings and who doesn't] or is the military very strong after Clinton?
My dim light went off in my head the other day: HAS ANYBODY NOTICED THE MEDIA SAYS NOTHING ABOUT KOSOVO WITH THE UPCOMING ELECTION./ I haven't heard up to this point that our troops are being withdrawn....???? I don't think anybody wants another Vietnam.
Ditto!!!!!
Oh, yes. I'm all for interfering in the politics of sovereign nations. Nothing like proping up a puppet government. Look at all the good it did in Cuba, for both the US (Pre-Castro) and USSR. Oh, let's not forget the Philipines, Vietnam, East Germany, Poland, Hungary, Czechoslavakia, and Panama.
-Hank
Oh, I left something out:
Ever hear of supply and demand? Go here http://www.nydailynews.com/2000-06-29/News_and_Views/Opinion/a-71563.asp and scoll all the way to the bottom of the page.
-Hank
If someone can lie under oath because he has a good reason than the oath is meaningless and the foundation of our legal system is also meaningless.
I didn't think Bill Clinton should have been impeached (I think he deserved it but the nation didn't, if you can understand that) but he put me in the position of explaining to a 6-year-old and an 8-year-old why he should not be punished for lying before our courts (and before God, if you still take that implication in an oath) but they will be punished for lying about a lot less.
This is part of Bill Clinton's enduring legacy. We were told to look the other way (some of us celebrated looking the other way) because our bellies were full and our pocketbooks were full. What does that make us?
Ok, first of all Clinton didn't lie. He did the "dance". If they had asked, "Did you have oral sex with monica" and if he said no, that would have been a lie and I would probably have a problem with it. But they asked if he had sexual relations and at least in his mind oral sex was not sexual relations. There was a recent incident where some friends of mine had pulled a prank at a camp and the guy asked one of them (who is not going to become a marine) if he did it and he flat out lied and my dad was disapointed. Now my dad went on to say that he should have either come forward or done the "dance", but my friend is not a real fast talker. If you are smart enough to deflect and mislead all the power to you. If your kids don't lie, but defeat you in a game of semantics or question avoidance you should pat them on the back because its a life skill.
But they asked if he had sexual relations and at least in his mind oral sex was not sexual relations.
He might have been just a young-thinking person. From what I've heard, young people today - even those of junior-high age - consider that type of activity largely nonsexual, little more than a casual expression of friendship. Check out the movie American Pie for an example of this. One of the characters had engaged in that sort of activity with his girlfriend, both "Hoovering" and "minetting," and yet they agonized over whether it was appropriate for them to "go all the way."
If your total experience with under 25ers was what you saw on MTV and in the movies, you could write off a whole generation. Fortunately, real life ain't MTV, thank Christ...
www.forgotten-ny.com
If your total experience with under 25ers was what you saw on MTV and in the movies, you could write off a whole generation. Fortunately, real life ain't MTV, thank Christ...
How do you know if you're over the hill? If you can remember when MTV still played music videos!
How about those of us who remember when the TV pictures were in black and white, the screen was round, the set was hooked to an antenna and the people who started MTV hadn't been born yet... I guess we're on the downhill side and picking up speed!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
And remember when we used to put tinfoil on the rabbit ears to get the distant stations better?
Yes, I do! Although we didn't have to do that at our house, fortunately - my father had a huge antenna concealed in the gable over my room, and we were up on a hill, so the reception was pretty good - but my paternal grandparents (in Schenevus, New York) were far enough away from a decent signal that they had to use the foil to get any reception at all.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
When my TV was in the basement I couldn't get UHF so I replaced the old loop with a huge loop of heavy guage wire attached with like paperclips. With it I was able to catch a greater changing magnetic flux which in turn induced a greater current in the antenna loop thus improving my reception.
Did you put a flux capacitor in the circuit with the loop?
No, but I had to jam the top in a fold in the forced air heating duct so it wouldn't flop over.
You have just failed the 80's pop-culture test.
-Hank :)
If he did, he now gets only original episodes of Ozzie and Harriet, or Survivior XXVII-The Moon!
-Hank :)
I'll bet that you can even remember when we had to get up and walk to the TV set to change the channel!
Oh yes... very well! (Of course, that still happens around my house when someone misplaces the remote... but I watch so little TV that it doesn't really affect me.)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Dude, the TV in my living room still has KNOBS! And no cable. But I do have a remote control:
"Fern! Change the channel!"
-Hank :)
How do you train a plant to change the channel?
You don't. You train your younger sister.
-Hank
With difficulty, but it was easier than training the cat.
-Hank :)
Either you have a patented method, or your sister is little and still takes orders from her Big Brother. If she's over 12, fat chance and a lot of grief from her.
Doesn't work to well anymore, she's 19, and rarely home.
-Hank
The basement TV to which I refered to earlier was an early 80's or late 70's Zieneth model with a channel and volume knob and some little adjustlemt knobes inside a pennel. It served perfectly well for about 15 years w/ my grandfather and then 8 years with us. Towards the end of its life the picture would get a blue tint at times and when you turned it on you would get some acring in the back. Sometimes it would "trip off" right after you turned it on. A combination of hand positioning, setting it to channel 6 and rapid manupilation of the on/off button would get it going again. It died in August of last year. During a phillies game the middle 1/3 of the picture condenced into a single bright line and the top and bottom 3rds came together. Watching a baseball game where the players had no torsos was amusing to say the least. We now have a modern RCA w. a remote. How said american engineering dosen't last.
The late 70's Zeniths were probably made in Mexico.
Tv's, except those larger than 35", have a life cycle of 5 to 7 years. That it lasted more than twice that is a testament to its design.
-Hank
Well, I'm not kidding about the acring in the back. You would hear like 5 or 6 loud SNAP's in the back and you see the flashes on the wall. Poor old thing, I'll miss her.
My 13" Sony Trinitron is now 22 years old and still works fine. The brightness knob is a bit fussy; the screen will black out if you start fiddling around with it. I suspect the contacts are dirty.
I'd still have to do that with my 22-year-old Sony Trinitron if it wasn't connected to a cable-ready VCR.
I gather that you leave the TV on Channel 3, and use your VCR as a tuner. You still have to manually turn your TV on though, don't you?
Correct. I also typically turn whichever VCR I'm using on and off maually as well. The cable box is another story. I'm usually no more than 3 feet from the set when I'm watching it anyway.
The living room TV has been set up the same way ever since its cable-ready circuitry croaked.
I have to get up to change the channel because I don't have a wireless keyboard.
Maybe I should get one, since I can even turn my computer on from the keyboard.
09/05/2000
Since we're discussing older television sets, remember when you first turned it on you had to wait for it to warm up for sound and picture to come on? How about when you turned it off (black & white consoles) the picture would rapidly shrink to a fading white dot?
Bill "Newkirk"
Yes, I do. Our old Philco (with the round screen) took close to three minutes to warm up... the Zenith that replaced it warmed up in less than 30 seconds, a vast improvement! The sound came first on the Philco but IIRC we had a picture first on the Zenith.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I bought an "instant on" TV years ago and discovered that it was actually always on. Virtually all the tubes except the picture tube remained lit when the set was turned off.
Which is why they were recalled. Fire hazard. Since transistors replaced tubes, the only tube left in the set is the picture tube.
-Hank
Our Magnavox color set had a "quick on" feature which did precisely that. It basically kept the tubes warm. My father wanted to disable this feature because he felt it wasted power (there was a switch on the back of the set for this purpose), but my mother overruled him.
My Sony Trinitron takes about 30 seconds to warm up even though it's solid state.
When I told my parents about the "always on", they found the switch in the back and turned the set off every night. They're very frugal.
Gee, do they do that now with their remote-control TV? That's also always on.
-Hank
No, and I won't tell them, either.
Before I went into the exciting world of trains, I was in the TV repair business. I hesitate to mention this because there may be a former customer or two here. I remember the old B/W sets that had tubes but none the less were 'instant on' models. The manufacturer would put a silcon diode across one side of the on/off sw. This would allow the filaments of the tubes to 'idle at about 1/2 powr whit no B+ applied to the tubes. This, of course, meant that the manufacturers had to do away with the power x-former. This saved weight and money but instead of all 6 volt tubes, we ended up with many different voltage versions of the same tube like 6LQ6, 12LQ6. 24LQ6 etc. Now what relevance this has to the original thread, I can't imagine but I'd love to hook Hilly up to the output of a 3DC3 (anyone know what a 3DC3 is?) and then ask her about Whitewater.
The high-voltage rectifier?
That sounds about right. Our Magnavox color set had a 3CU3 Hi-V rectifier tube. You'd be OK as long as you didn't touch the tube socket itself without discharging the capacitor first. I made that mistake once - WHOOOOOOOOAAAAAA!!!
Similar to an R2D2?
09/06/2000
[I can't imagine but I'd love to hook Hilly up to the output of a 3DC3 (anyone know what a 3DC3 is?) and then ask her about Whitewater.]
Better yet, the anode of a 1B3/1G3GT !
Bill "Newkirk"
1B3 (used in B/W TV) had an output of around 19KVDC whereas the 3A3 or 3DC3 (used in color TV) had an output of around 27KVDC. The additional 8KV would make quite an impression.
Hey Steve, you think we could do the same to a certain railfan window fanatic at SubTalk residing on the West Coast??
Doug aka BMTman
Why use gunpowder when roachpowder will do?
Perhaps if he sees that his ideas are universally repudiated here, he'll either rethink his misconceptions about life in this country or more likely, he'll move on.
Which means that all must immediately put him in their Killfile. If not wishing to do that, NEVER, NEVER, EVER respond to ANYTHING he posts. Respond once and the whole merry-go-round starts up all over again.
I hope you aren't talking about me. I live on the Left Coast and I have ruffled some feathers in the past, but I know I have some friends on this site, so I'm hoping that I'm not who you have in mind.
No, Fred, you are NOT the subject, it's the Railfan Window loving, Anti-R142, Can't spell if the salvation of the Republic was at hand, get's into diatribes with Train Dude and others, idiot.
I know now who you mean. All I can say is that I'm glad it isn't me. I have patched things up with Doug BMT Man, and a couple of others who I had differences with. I need no enemies on this site, only friendly rivals.
This site is like one big clique. And since Train Dude is in it, the R-142 loving dude is by default excluded. I'm not part of any subtalk cliques either which is one of the reasons why after 9 months of almost continual posting under the name Seattle Guy, Light Rail Rules!, and Siemens SD-600 I am retiring from these boards come september 20th and will only read messages for information, but not post. I feel it is useless to post ideas because the only people whoever respond to them with anything more than "you don't live in new york, your idea makes no sense" are the other people who aren't in the main clique. Subtalk is a little like high school in that regard. I wish i had Salaam's email, he was a cool guy, and I'd like to keep up an L.A. correspondence with him because I like redbirds AND R-142s and when I visit NYC i hog the railfan windows too.
Abe
hey abe... there is another clique here at subtalk of people who don't take things too seriously... this is a highly subversive group aimed at rattling the cages of those who get too caught up in their fascination with transit... we need wrong thinking members such as yourself to provide a credible voice for this movement... i hope you stick around...
i don't have a lot of time come sept. 20th (school starting) anyway to post and stuff. the truth is i don't agree with salaam on all the issues - he is a little to the left of me politically - but i get really sick of the way this whole message board kind of gangs up on him. how many messages have anyone else posted that didn't have a 10 page bibliography of their sources cited? I don't even know what the heck "workfare" is, I've never heard of it and I haven't really read every single post on it either. But I can't see how it's so important that people have to get into verbal fisticuffs over it. And Salaam isn't worse than anyone else when it comes to namecalling... at least some people (heypaul, David Pirmann - Web Site Host, etc.) have refrained from posting messages dissing on him. No one here has really dissed on ME, but the fact taht everyone on this board is so immature as gang up on people pisses me off and it's REALLY not that cool. Me and my friend Chris (he runs a website on Portland's LRT, www.maxlightrail.com) are railfanning the whole Southern Division in the spring and it would be cool if the people on this board with a sense of humor hooked up with us at Sheepshead or something, but I dunno...this is way too long of a long-ass message anyway.
I don't even know what the heck "workfare" is, I've never heard of it and I haven't really read every single post on it either.
Well then, if you don't know what workfare is, how the hell can you say it doesn't belong on Subtalk? Tell us what else you never heard of so we'll know what we're not supposed to talk about.
hey abe... although spring is a long ways off... let me and some of the other chuckleheads know when you're coming, and we will prepare some cream pies to welcome you to southern brooklyn...
By the time we hit the southern division we will have already hit the NYW&B so we will welcome your South Brooklyn greeting and return with a friendly Bronx cheer...
since we now have a thread about me, with my name in the title, which is positive and at least this subthread is untainted by salaam-haters, perhaps Jeffery Rosen, one of the other few who see Salaam for what he is - an okay guy who gets picked on a lot - could post here and we'd have a thread with Abe, Paul, and Jeffery - the only people on this board, it seems, who have supported salaam...
thank you sir free trainst video of your choice !!
asiaticcommunications@yahoo.com
http://photos.yahoo.com/asiaticcommunications
ALWAYS JUDGE SOMEONE & OR ANYBODY BY THE GOOD THAT THEY DO CONTRIBUTE
ETC.. LOOK AT WHAT THEY DO OF GOOD WEIGH THAT AGAINST WHAT YOU MAY
THINK OF ILL OF THAT PERSON ETC.. ( sorry for the large caps )
thankz salaam allah October is PROJECT REDBIRD MONTH !
Hey, Abe, I'll meet up with you guys. I'll just have to make sure I keep my sense of humor between now and the Spring. ;-)
Just keep in mind that my tour-guide fees are not cheap. A good meal at Nathan's should suffice.
Doug aka BMTman
How about something next summer. I am anxious as all get out to finally lay eyes on some of my railfan buddies.
getting back to the posts,
How about something next summer. I am anxious as all get out to finally lay eyes on some of my railfan buddies.
Lay eyes on them? Dude Fred, I'm sorry but I'm a heterosexual and I can tell you New York is one place i WON'T be coming next summer. The MUNI would be safer........
>>>I am anxious as all get out to finally lay eyes on some of my railfan
buddies. <<<
I wouldn't be TOO anxious.
www.forgotten-ny.com
i'm not sure dude. You seem to be one of the Salaam-haters. If he annoys you that much than stop talking about him.
Abe,
Don't go. Anyone who uses names and put-downs instead of facts, doesn't have a clue.
Salaam is a lot of other people. If people like Train Dude, Pigs of Royal Island, Doug aka BMTman, etc. can all call Salaam names and put HIM down, I don't see why he can't do the same. I don't really care who called anyone names first. If you want to continnue to argue that Salaam is "worse" than others on this board than you will have to start dissecting which names are considered worse than others. If were referring to me publicly (on this board) as a problem person, saying I "don't have a clue" because my opinions differed from theirs, then I'd probably resort to name calling like he does (and those are only the names from the last post). I am really fed up with everyone picking on him.
Everyone at times is a victim on this site, and I was no exception. Usually things work their way out and get back to normal. There are a few that do have a tendency to keep the embers burning. Salaam and I made peace long ago, but there was a time he and I were at swords point. Give it time and all will settle down. At least Salaam knows he has a few buddies on the web.
saying I "don't have a clue" because my opinions differed from theirs,
It has nothing to do with disagreeing with him, it has to do with his failing to understand concepts. The fact that Pac Bell Park (example) was built exclusively with private money is not an opinion that someone can disagree with. Instead of giving up the fight, he continues to listen to AM Radio as gospel.
There are others who tried to be his friends but were trampled on when they supported him.
yes exactly. I am one of those people. Look at the history - every post on this board was responded to nicely. Now I start posting posts that put me on Salaam's side and Train Dude goes rabid on me, saying I'm doomed to work at McDonald's the rest of my life, etc. etc... Another example is Jeffery Rosen, who posted a very favorable Salaam post pointing out that he had been baited and was attacked by Train Dude and Dan Lawrence. heypaul has remained neutral in this whole thing. You don't have to agree with Salaam's viewpoints or even how he arrived at those viewpoints. But posting messages about him that are rude is uncalled for. You are a good example. Some people supported him from the start (like me), some were mean to him from the start, but you started out being mean to him and are now fine and calm and realize that you shouldn't have spewed. Which makes you no worse than any of the original Salaam-Supporters. If only some other people (I won't say Train dude's name) would follow your example...
You also missed where people supported Salaam, and he turned around their support of him as detrimental to him. He even replied to a 'You're absolutely right' post in his favor by calling the person who said it 'mr right winged idiot'
He doesn't deserve the defense.
-Hank
on what post did this happen ? & when ?? what tricks are you up to now? Oh thats right its halloween upcoming & the moon is full!!
I have been off post for a while, I thought that you guys were talking about that Right Wing School Teacher from Arcadia who loves the Slow Beach Loco
I hope you don't think I'm an enemy because of my tongue-in-cheek post saying that you sounded like an old fart and MUST be over 60. Of course you'd have no way of knowing that I'm 59.
Bob
I'll be 60 on October 27. Rather than be referred to as an old fart, I like the term people use for me here in Arcadia, California. As a former amateur baseball coach, they call me "an old warhorse." That sounds a lot better to me.
Well happy birthday next month, young fellow.
We gotta be young at heart and we'll be ok. I wonder if Frank Sinatra up there is smiling at us?
I'm sure he's smiling at you, but I'm not Italian. :)
Neither was Sammy Davis Jr., or Joey Bishop or Peter Lawford, nor most of his wives. Frank was an ok guy. Color, and nationality meant nothing to him. He even became a Republican. Quite a guy. Believe me, if you're young at heart, he IS smiling at you.
Chub: You are now an honorary Italian.
Grazie!
Fred, of course Sinatra is up there smiling down on us -- he too was a railfan!
Doug aka BMTman
Didn't know that Doug. But if you tell me his favorite train was the Brighton you'll really throw me for a loss. Good to hear, though.
From what I understand he liked the 'A' Line (not even close).
That's why he had a set of O gauge R-9 cars made some years back.
Doug aka BMTman
Why would he like the A? No variety whatsoever. Until the terminal moved into Queens in 1956 it was all underground. Maybe some of the stops along the way gave him a real charge. Who knows? I'm sure there are many who wonder how I can be such a great Sea Beach fan.
>>> Why would he like the A? <<<
Because it's the fastest way to get to Sugar Hill in Harlem!
Tom
the first poster on this thread..gunpowder etc.. & his love of roaches
?? made no sense whatsoever !!also which state, on the "" left coast"?
washington -oregon- california ? only his hairdresser knows for sure!
Maybe Ol' Blue Eyes was enamored with Duke Ellington's "Take the A Train", or perhaps he liked the R-9's and their persona as being "heavy, realible and built-like-tanks".
Also, the 8th Avenue line was a mighty fast run even back in the days of the 9s.
Doug aka BMTman
This does not change the fact that you will still be an old fart.
-Hank :)
Thanks Hank. That's just what I didn't need to hear on this Monday.
the PASADENA BLUE LINE ( when they finally get around to building it )
is supposed to go to ARCADIA CALIFORNIA 2-two towns east of me but:
Do not hold your breath too long!! ( be & think positive )!!!
http://photos.yahoo.com/asiaticcommunications
The Blue Line in my town. Yippee I O Ki A. But I'll celebrate when I see it happen. Pardon me if I'm less than confident on such an event.
I do feel your pain there !! they have a HDQ. building on south fair oaks next
to the ""shakers restaurant"" where COLLIAU CHEVROLET used to be !!
you see the plaque on the front of the building right there in
south pasadena !! BLUE LINE TRANSIT """" ( i forgot the rest )
By the way have you seen the ""PASADENA BLUE LINE"" webpage?? & and
also check out the BLAG page no BLUE LINE AT GRADE.webpage
Do you remember when the SANTA FE railroad ran thru arcadia ??
Man did they ever run fast as hell!!! ( amtrak too ) ....
thankz salaam allah ...
http://photos.yahoo.com/asiaticcommunications
I take it you still used an isolation transformer.
My 12" B&W in the Kitchen fades into a little white dot.
I didn't think Bill Clinton should have been impeached (I think he deserved it but the nation didn't, if you can understand that) but he put me in the position of explaining to a 6-year-old and an
8-year-old why he should not be punished for lying before our courts (and before God, if you still take that implication in an oath) but they will be punished for lying about a lot less.
Look at it this way, at least you didn't have to explain what the President did with Monica. THAT would have been awkward :-)
[...] you didn't have to explain what the President did with Monica [...]
Oh, they asked. I explained that he "dated" Monica while he was married and that that was wrong. That explanation proved sufficient to my kids and they accepted it.
I take it you left out the part about the cigar...:-)
So what you're saying is you won't vote for a person because you don't like her husband. Guilt by association???
>>> He PERJURED himself in a legal proceeding. <<<
Just like so many of Bill Clinton's partisan detractors in Congress, you claim he committed perjury. None of them were able to point to any particular words which amounted to perjury, and I doubt that you can either. Even the judge that censored him claimed he mislead the court, not that he committed perjury.
Tom
Actually I haven't heard either Her Royal Highness OR Rick Lazio address transit issues even once during the campaign.
www.forgotten-n.com
(Actually I haven't heard either Her Royal Highness OR Rick Lazio address transit issues even once during the campaign. )
They are competing to demostrate how little they care about the people of New York City.
Well, they have to find someway to get the upstate votes.
Actually I haven't heard either Her Royal Highness OR Rick Lazio address transit issues even once during the campaign.
They are competing to demostrate how little they care about the people of New York City.
At the risk of sounding terribly cynical, neither of them has any pressing need to care. Hillary knows that she's going to get a huge majority of votes in NYC no matter what she does or doesn't do. Granted, a strong campaign might help with turnout, but she's better off concentrating on Upstate's swing voters. Lazio, for his part, knows that NYC's a lost cause no matter what he does.
There is a moral to this story. If NYC voters want more attention from politicians, they have to be willing to vote for candidates of either party. That way, Democrats won't take them for granted and Republicans won't write them off.
Bravo !!!! Well said. Of course you only scratched the surface. This is one cold, calculating bitch. Whitewater aside, I think Vince Foster found out how truly vicious (the Clintons) can be.
You're alleging murder. Prove it! Show me the evidence.
Just like a true demogog - er make that a true democrat, you are inferring where I did not imply. I did not mention murder nor did I suggest it. There are enough details of Mr. Foster's 'suicide' that are not forthcoming to leave a cloud of suspicion. For example - when was the last time you heard of the body of a suicide victim being mysteriously moved? That on top of the reported sexual link to the first lady makes me a bit more than curious. But if this does not bother you, I have some Redbirds for sale.....
What do you mean you didn't infer murder??! Vince Foster was killed (presumable by himself) and you said he found out how "vicious" the Clintons are. That plainly implies that the Clintons had something to do with his death. Why can't you republicans just come out and say what you mean instead of trying plant subliminal sugestions in the national mind.
I won't vote for Hillary because I wouldn't want New York State to be in Monica's position. And because I almost got stuck in traffic behind Bill and Hillary's motorcade while cruising around Upstate New York recently.
But seriously, we are replacing the only major politician in the state who understands the value of transportation infrstructure. The only one who cares about the future.
I see Hillary as being willing to trade an adverse funding formula for New York (and we have enough of those already) for a symbolic victory on one of her social issues. What we really need is someone to say enough is enough, and call the bluff of the right wing voting rednecks who despise federal spending but somehow end up getting most if it.
"You pay for yours, we'll pay for ours, and we'll cut out the middle man in Washington."
You are right on target. The quality of "leadership" in this country today is pathetic, and I think most Americans know it, which is why so few people vote. There are many sites on the net which expand on the themes you have mentioned; I visit some of them regularly. I could provide some links, but this really isn't the appropriate place.
Here's a canidate I'd vote for: www.duke2000.org
Here's a canidate I'd vote for: http://www.duke2000.org
It looks that DB Tradeau dook down his Uncle Duke for president site. I love that guy.
Note that he doesn't mention Tricky Dick, the runaway "stagflation" during his terms, the gas/oil crisis, and his deliberate attempt to rig the 1972 presdential election.
And how about the so-called "Great Communicator", who on the Iran-Contra witness stand repeated the phrase "I can't recall..."?
I'm a proud Democrat. I have problems with some of Clinton's behavior. However, at some point Gore needs to pull a reversal of Reagan and ask, "Are you WORSE off today than you were eight years ago?" Anyone who answers "yes" is a damn liar.
[Note that he doesn't mention Tricky Dick, the runaway "stagflation" during his terms, the gas/oil crisis, and his deliberate attempt to rig the 1972 presdential election]
And I assume you won't mention the little matter of the 1960 election, when the voting "irregularities" in Chicago secured the victory for JFK.
["Are you WORSE off today than you were eight years ago?" Anyone who answers "yes" is a damn liar.]
Thanks to the economic policies started by Reagan and continuing through the Clinton years because of the Republican congress.
The Regan policies sent up into the 1992 recession and left us with a missive debt (although it was a fun ride for us military buffs). Anyone who thinks that giving money to the rich in anyway trickles down to the working Americans needs to be taken out and beaten with rubber hoses.
[Anyone who thinks that giving money to the rich in anyway trickles down to the working Americans needs to be taken out and beaten with rubber hoses.]
But it HAS trickled down - and that's why most (although I will certainly agree not all) Americans are doing better now than they were prior to Reaganonmics.
The reason for our ecomonic boom is because of the information and PC revolution, plain and simple. Where did all that tax cut money trickle down to? French Champaigne? German cars? Oh, I know, they were able to hire an extra maid or a gardener.
The DEMOCRATIC way to manage wealth is to have it flow up from the working people. They have the money, they choose the products, they descide which americans get rich (via selling a sucessful product). When you empower the workers and the middle class through a tax structure you make many lives better and you free up cash for economic devolopment that would haver otherwise been stashed away in a Vanderbelt style mansion. Those who can pay the most should pay the most. Don't tell me that its not fair because if you were given the option of getting a 6 figure sallery and a high tax bracket you'd take it. They want a tax cut because they are greedy. Well when they get a cut, some janitor who dosen't know if he can pay the rent next month has to pick up the tab. Now you tell me if that's fair.
We need greatly incerased max. tax brackets and a constitutional amendment to accomodate a non repealable estate tax with no one person able to inherit more than 10 million dollars and as for Greenspan, his war on inflation is really class warfare on the workers who really create the wealth. greenspan is really a plutocrat married to a Corporate media shill. far from being a great intellect, as reported in the corporate media, he is a megalomaniac who sees to it that the rich get richer while the working/ middle class dissapears. As for workfare, the working/middle class is obligated to see that all people have the opportunity to provide for themselves. THE DOLE IS NOT A RIGHT but a means for those who through disability or TEMPORARY displacement to provide for themselves and their families and get the training they need to return to productivity. a temporary training wage is one tool to accomplish this. However Social Services should see to it that the successful "WEP" is transitioned into full employment and union status as soon as he demonstrates ability to perform a full time job and has marketable skills.
[We need greatly incerased max. tax brackets and a constitutional amendment to accomodate a non repealable estate tax with no one person able to inherit more than 10 million...]
Then why even bother trying to get ahead? Under your scenario, what the government won't take while you're alive, they'll take when you're dead. There's no incentive to try to do better because, if you do, the Government will take it away anyway. That's Socialism, pure and simple.
And easily avoidable.
All of the assets above 10 million would merely be placed into a corporation, with the "heir" becoming the CEO of after the death of the original owner.
First of all for people who make millions and millions its not about working "harder". They probably work just as "hard" as the rest of us. The difference is that they also have millions in the bank to work for them. If a CEO is offed a huge bonus will he turn it down because he can only keep 40% instead of 60%? Will someone deside to stick $100,000 in the matteres just because if he invests it he'll only keep %50 of his dividends?
The only thing that will change is if big stockholders of something like Conrail might deside to reject a merger because keeping the stock would be better. And more competition is better for everyone.
My Grandfather once paid a %90 marginal tax on a $50,000 bonus in 1955. Todays taxes are nothing compared to what they were back in the day. I can never see a time when a govt. tax will actually cost someone utility to make more money, even with a hike for the rich.
BTW one of my views of Capalitisim is "Give addocding to your abilities, recieve according to your abilities". Living off dadies money is not an "ability".
Anyone who thinks that giving money to the rich in anyway trickles down to the working Americans needs to be taken out and beaten with rubber hoses.
But it HAS trickled down - and that's why most (although I will certainly agree not all) Americans are doing better now than they were prior to Reaganonmics.
One often-overlooked point is the fact that the definition of "prosperity" keeps being racheted upward. People of all economic classes want more and more these days. Heck, I can (barely) remember when many families had a single automobile, which Dad used for getting to work. Mom probably had a license but frequently lacked a car of her own. Today, of course, both parents have vehicles, as do any teens of driving age. Or take televisions. Seldom do you see a family with just one idiot box in the living room; today each family member has his or her own boob tube, with cable and probably a VCR (soon to be replaced by a DVD). There are of course many other examples. What matters in this context is that this general spread of possessions has occurred among all socioeconomic classes, save maybe the very poorest.
[Today, of course, both parents have vehicles, as do any teens of driving age.]
Including SUV's :-)
The poorest have become richer. Many people considered to be below the poverty line have cars, TVs, VCRs, microwaves and air conditioners.
>>>>One often-overlooked point is the fact that the definition of "prosperity" keeps being racheted upward.
People of all economic classes want more and more these days.<<<
When Gore complains about 'tax cuts for the rich' during the debates, I'd like to hear somebody ask him if he can put a dollar figure to what he says is 'rich.'
To me, 'rich' is an annual income of $100,000. Many subtalkers would find that figure laughable. But that proves that 'rich' is hardly definable: it's relative.
Gore's cuts seem to benefit marrieds instead of singles, so I lose, while Bush's cuts do seem to benefit the upper brackets, so I'd lose again.
Hey, I'd like 'em to lower income tax rates by 20% for the middle income bracket, but that, they'll never do.
www.forgotten-ny.com
(What matters in this context is that this general spread of possessions has occurred among all socioeconomic classes, save maybe the very poorest. )
Add in the poorest, at least among those who do not have social problems. Every in the projects has a color TV these days. In 1940s a substantial share of the population did not have all plumbing fixtures, refrigerators, or a phone. These were not the rich getting these things for the first time. And how many of you have had your first airplane ride since 1980? Our grandparents had to leave the old country behind and never go back. Today's (legal) immigrants, even the working class, call on a phone and fly back for a visit every couple of years.
The price of all kinds of stuff is falling. Thank automation and trade for that. The poor benefit as well as the rich. The only losers are those who had a posistion of privilege in the past who have not lost it.
Well Regan wasn't lying. He really couldn't reall because of his Alzhimers.
Well, Clinton doesn't have Alzheimers - what's his excuse?????? Must be smoking too many cigars.
I am saddened and dismayed at the extent of ignorance and stupidity displayed in the beginning of the thread-originating post (I didn't get past the beginning) and most of the responses. Obviously a large number of SubTalkers are willing to clutter a very interesting board with ignorant political rubbish.
Please take it elsewhere.
Another self-appointed censor? Okay, ChuChu, which will do more for mass transit? The republican from NY or the dumocrat from the ozarks. Now that it's transit relevant, do we have your permission to discuss it? (Get a real life)
My vote is neither. After the Big-Dig fiasco, no large amount of federal dollars for transportaion projects in the northeast will ever pass a congressional vote.
NO, no you miss the point. The object of the exercise is the transfer of revenue to the bribing classes (including the Davis-Bacon protected tradespersons who otherwise would not be as well paid). Any actual construction is merely for show. As to Lazio v. Clinton. IMHO Democrats on balance have a better record funding public transit. I make no judgement on allegations of criminality or corrption in this case;
So since you know chuchubob is an adult, you can't criticize his comments and use age as an excuse.
You see, people who are not seventeen do feel the same way. It's not a matter of age.
BTW, I don't care which side is right or wrong. I read this thread, so I guess I like it that it's here.
Hey piglet, what is your problem? I criticized ChuChu for attempting to be a self appointed censor. I care not one bit which side of the argument he falls. However, if you have a problem with what I post, i suggest you start to write in a less convoluted way so I can understand whatyou are trying to say.
This has nothing to do with chuchubob. It has to do with your obviously ageist attitude in dealing with Siemens SD-600.
You made the exact same critical response to both of them. The only thing different between the two is the ageism. In my original response, I said that an adult would just as easily post the same kind of message you hate, you just wouldn't be able to pull your condescending age crap.
>>> It has to do with your obviously ageist attitude <<<
Pigs;
You do not seem to understand what ageism is.
It is not ageism if one points to a remark by a young person which displays naivete and the lack of wisdom which comes with age and chides him/her for the obvious lack of worldly experience the remark conveys.
It is also not ageism if one points to an elderly person who cannot remember his name or address or who his relatives are, and suggests that he is senile.
It is ageism to suggest that anything said by a young person is not worth listening to because the person is young, or that anyone over a certain age must be senile. There does not seem to be any ageism is the prior remarks regarding the post by Siemens SD-600.
It does no good to toss the term "ageism" around loosely.
Of course my generation has come from the background of "Don't trust anyone over thirty" to "Don't trust anyone under thirty."
Tom
In this case he did use that as an excuse for showing that Siemens' messages were not worth listening too. In other messages, posted by people who are known to be adults, he would post the same response, except without the second paragraph. That shows that age has nothing to do with the attitude of those who are against the off topic messages.
I thought that Hillary was from Connecticut and went to Yale. On that score Connecticut has a very good transit system with the inland route, the ConnDOT division of Metro North, Shore Line East and most of the smaller cities have bus service (I can get to Hartford for $1 and then transfer for free to another bus!)
Hillary is from Illinois and went to Wellesley and Yale Law.
Well Metra is very good to. Never-the-less she is no hick razourback from AK.
Dear Train,
I chose to wait until you passed the crossed turd that had you so upset Sunday and Monday because your thinking was clouded to such an extent that I didn't want to elicit another embarrassing response from you. Your recent posts indicate that you're feeling better, so I'd like to say that I didn't feel that I was appointing myself a censor. Obviously I am in the minority in thinking a thread of political rants belongs on a political message board instead of a transit board, since scores of posts appear in this thread and only about 5 (in and out of this thread) pleaded that we limit ourselves to transit-related topics. So you win by a landslide when counting posts.
When counting posts with rational thought behind them, however, I think we're about even.
I generally eschew personal attacks, but I try not to judge others by my personal standards, so I shant complain about your mean-spirited attacks on other SubTalkers. To be fair, I must point out that your remarks about bringing friends to the IQ contest elicited audible laughter, and your recent rolling post had me rolling, especially the remark about demeaning lowland gorillas.
Returning to the topic, I heartily support the Bill of Rights and stand firmly against censorship. Censorship of this board lies in the hands of Mr. Pirmann and the government. I am not Mr. Pirmann, nor would I suggest how he should run his board. I applaud him and would change nothing. Nor am I the government, nor have I been employed by the government since I received my DD214 many years ago.
Lastly, had I gotten a life, I wouldn't have posted this rant, so you got me there.
Respectfully,
Chu
Chu,
Do not take me too seriously either. I tend to bring the frustrations of professional life here and vice versa. I don''t like censorship though. I also don't think that any topic (properly labled) should be off limits as long as it's in good taste. You never know when it will lead and they usually lead to somewhere amusing or interesting.
I'm glad that you liked the lesbian eskimo & lowland gorilla remarks. I'm trying to prove that contrary to some subtalker's beliefs, I do have a sense of humor.
Which leads me to my final thought. To anyone who was not amused by my dusting of salaam - I really do apologize if I offended anyone else.
Chu,
Do not take me too seriously either. I tend to bring the frustrations of professional life here and vice versa. I don''t like censorship though. I also don't think that any topic (properly labled) should be off limits as long as it's in good taste. You never know when it will lead and they usually lead to somewhere amusing or interesting.
I'm glad that you liked the lesbian eskimo & lowland gorilla remarks. I'm trying to prove that contrary to some subtalker's beliefs, I do have a sense of humor.
Which leads me to my final thought. To anyone who was not amused by my dusting of salaam - I really do apologize if I offended anyone else. I just think that he has shown himself to be more dangerous than ignorant and I don't think the killfile is an adequate defense against his kind of hate mongering.
Thank you for taking my reply in the manner intended. I thought you might not get past the beginning.
Bob
I love it! Mr. R46 and I finally agree 100% n something ...
Lazio for Senate!
These people [the Founding Fathers} were the creative genius behind the greatest social experiment in history to succeed. Up to that point in time democracy hadn't been tried in millenia, and then not in the scope we enjoy here. They framed the constitution, a unique and
incredibly dynamic document with amazing ideas for the time: all men are created equal. The founding fathers suffered for their vision. The British pursued these men and imprisoned many. Some lost their fortunes and died penniless. In almost every case they gave far more to the new America than they received. Truly selfless acts.
While I certainly agree with the main thrust of your post, I must point out that the story of how the Founding Fathers suffered terribly at the hands of the British is, alas, an urban legend of uncertain vintage. In actual fact, not one of the men who signed the Declaration of Independence was executed, and only a couple were imprisoned. Very few of them lost their wealth during the Revolution, and in most if not all such cases their financial reverses would have happened even without their political activities.
In actual fact, not one of the men who signed the Declaration of Independence was executed, and only a couple were imprisoned. Very few of them lost their wealth during the Revolution, and in most if not all such cases their financial reverses would have happened even without their political activities.
Well, duh! Because they won.
If the British had succeeded most would have lost their lives and their property. Their families would also have suffered.
In actual fact, not one of the men who signed the Declaration of Independence was executed, and only a couple were imprisoned. Very few of them lost their wealth during the Revolution, and in most if not all such cases their financial reverses would have happened even without their political activities.
Well, duh! Because they won.
Many of the Signers spent several years in British-occupied territory before the war ended. There was more than ample time for them to have come to grief.
"Treason is an excuse invented by the victor for hanging the loser."
B. Franklin
And Hillary also personally interfered with the programming decisions of Manhattan’s public-access channels by pressuring them to take two shows that were critical of the Clintons off the air. As for me, I’ll take Dr. Mark McMahon in the Sept. 12 Democratic primary.
This has got to be the most intelligent, concise, and right-on-the-money commentary on the last 8 years of Clinton-Gore. BRAVO!
READ THIS BEFORE YOU VOTE!
This book just arrived at our museum store. See tmny.safeshopper.com.
The book has lots of nice color photos and information for the following systems: London, Moscow, Toronto, Chicago, San Francisco, New York, Paris, Boston, Washington DC and Tokyo.
i be visiting n.y. in nov,2000 will somebody tell more about the subway the last i rode the subway was in 1983 so what train i should sigh see first.
The last time was 1983? WOW!!!. It would be very difficult to say which train you should see first. While the R142 and 142A cars come to mind since there are only 2 trains of those cars running (barely) at the moment, you might wnat to see the R-62 cars on the #1 and 3 lines or the R-62A cars on the #4 & 6 lines or the R-68/68A cars on the B, or D lines (this could go on for a while but I won't).
Check the New York City Transit website for various bits of information before you leave http://www.mta.nyc.ny.us/nyct/index.html
so that you will know what construction projects will be causing diversions all over the system. Don't forget to try to get a Subway map ahead of time so you can see what the current layout is (2 new lines have been added sine you were here last - the 63rd St line and the Archer Av extension.
If anything, you should go see the Transit Museum in Brooklyn and the Museum's store in Grand Central Terminal. In fact GCT should be a definate stop on anyone's itinerary since the entire terminal has been refurbished.
You're a little confused. The 4 runs R-62s. The 1/9, 3, 4, 5, and 6 run R-62As (but it's only a train or two on the 5, the 6 is mixed about half-and-half with Redbirds, and there are a handful of Redbirds on the 4 as well).
Mark
The 4 runs no R-62A's
Peace,
ANDEE
Here's what's changed
The spraypaint's gone from everything except the tunnels. No more Blue/Silver paintscheme, its either stainless steel or red.
No more trains with front windows you can open.
There are no more double-lettered trains.
No more unairconditioned cars (except on the #7)
Everything's slower.
No more blinking lights (except on the #7 and some #6 trains).
Digital signs on the R-44/46, all assigned to the A and Queens Blvd. lines.
No more rollsigns on the front of R-32/38 trains, the air conditioning left no room, so they have an illegible digital sign.
Horribly scratched up reflective metal paneling in the R-62/68 cars.
Various route changes, here are the important ones:
No Manhattan Bridge south side or Broadway Express.
Skip-stop service on the #1 and J lines.
No more H train, now its another S.
No more train to the plane.
M goes down the west end, not the Brighton.
Dean st. on the Franklin shuttle is no longer existant.
Jamaica avenue el extended to Parsons/Archer as a subway, Queens Blvd and Metropolitan ave stations demolished, structure removed.
No more Hillside ave. express, E trains go to Parsons/Archer.
N/R switched Queens Terminals.
New connection being built, from 36st in Queens on the E/F/G/R to the 63st line Q/B/S, and the 63st line connects to the B'way, 6th ave, and the 2nd ave lines (the 2ave line's not there, but the connection is).
Map is now 20% bigger, and has MTA railroads on the back, plus many major bus connections.
OK, so the others have given you a little flavor for all the stuff that has changed, but if you're one of those that ride at the storm door you only have a few choices:
- Red Birds/IRTs ... you can still catch one on most lines mixed in with R62 & 62a, plus new R142 & 142a
- R32s are on C/E/N/R
- R38 are on A/C
- R40 (slants) are on Q/L/N & sometimes B/D
Also don't forget the nice ride on the PATH where you can catch one of those new HBLR or a old PCC on Newark City Subway.
For the realy old stuff the TA Museum has a nice collection. If you were here earlier you could also see some at Shoreline @ Branford CT or Kingston NY or Warehouse Point CT.
Mr t__:^)
Try riding the Q on the Brighton Line. It's an express train with a railfan view that gets up to some impressive speeds. And of course the scenery on your way out to Coney Island is one of the best on the system.
For interesting S-curve action and some unique trackage, take the L train out of Manhattan to Canarsie. You will again be riding a train with a railfan window and you will want to get off at Broadway-Junction to take a view (or photographs) of the massive steel structure and maze of switch-trackage between that station and Atlantic Avenue. It is due for a major overhaul that will leave the structure vastly different than it looks now (alot smaller, with less trackage).
You'll also want to experience the A train run out to Far Rockaway. You might get lucky with a railfan window train, but that is not a guarantee.
Doug aka BMTman
Let's not forget the mostly outdoors J train and the nice long elevated ride on the #2 to Wakefield; Pelham Bay is shorter outdoors but still interesting. As you mention the Q there's still the prospect of returning from Coney Island on the F or B.
I just saw an old pic today and I am now wondering, What the Heck Happened to Union Station? That station has basically been PennCenterized. Now I know that the main lobby is still there, but the all important concourse has been turned into office buildings. When I was there the huge, big, waiting room was deserted. Nobody used it. That's because the trains are a block away fron the main station building. Origionally the station had a second concourse building, but now its just an underground Penn Station. Its small, crowded, clousterphobic and utterly unimpressive. Amtrak didn't make things better by moving everything out of the grand hall and cramming it between the tracks. They might have hell bulldozed the whole thing for all the good the waiting rooms does now.
I was also regretting that the PRR didn't kick in more cash to have the Station names Penn Station: Chicago. I wouldn't be feeling as bad if I knew that there was a Penn Center in Illinois. Same peve goes for DC.
The congressman from New Jersey now enters a bill to rename every station, "Penn Station".
excuse me but Union Sta DC was originallly 50/50 PRR and B&O(a much classier rr IMHO) owned. In Chgo the owners were PRR, Milw AND CB&Q maybe the classiest of them all -- Zephyrs! yeah But sadly you are correct as to the disaster from the 60's The same lame real estate development morons allowed the "basementization" of the useful space such that no amount of rennovation other than eliminating the skyscraper above and the attendant suport structures will ever fix the problem. Too bad because it was so light and open feeling AND had amenities like rentable showers for passengers with short layovers but a desire to sluice off between trains. While Chgo still has stunning city architecture some of the losses have been sad.
The congressman from New Jersey now enters a bill to rename every station, "Penn Station".
Bad idea, it would trivialize the name Penn Station. New York Penn Station in its current state trivializes it enough.
Besides, would you want Grand Central to be named Penn Station?
At one time there were Penn Stations everywhere including Pittsburg and Harrisburg. I would like to have Penn Station be the railfan's version of the Hard Rock Cafe. You get like T-shirts saying Penn Station: New York or Penn Station: Chicago or Penn Station: Cleveland. I am trying to think if any other RR could/did refer to its stations in such a ubiquitious manner. Something like Pacific Station (UP SP) or Illinois (IC) Station or Chicago (CNW) Station in places that were by far not the Pacific or Illinois or Chicago.
As for Grand Central is would be bulldozed, but besides that each city would have ONE Penn Station.
The red and gold keystone logo has been preserved in various places within the "Harrisburg Transportation Center" as an homage to the PRR, which built it. The station, including the building, has not changed much from the PRR era, except for having fallen into neglect and disrepair and having subsequently been renovated nicely. The lower level beside the station tracks was turned into the bus station for both Trailways and the Hound. [The bus station was moved to another location, 7th St., in the early 80's, which turned out to be Harrisburg's version of the "New Coke" fiasco, and it was quickly moved back to the train station in favor of inter-modal convenience.] And one platform used by Amtrak (2 tracks on either side) was raised to train-door level. Tracks closest to the station have been obliterated in favor of a parking lot, and much catenary has been removed in and around the terminal. The station and the unique train-sheds have been given landmark status, so there will be no messing with it, but it's not like developers are clamoring for "air rights" in Harrisburg anyway.
P.S. Bridge piers for NY Central's thwarted "South Penn" line can still be seen in the Susquehanna River adjacent to the old Reading RR bridge. Winter ice-flows chip away more and more pieces of them every year, so they may be obscured in total shortly.
Even Newark NJ has a Penn Station. But THE Penn Station was destroyed and turned into a long-distance subway station over 35 years ago. A lot of Great ones but THE Penn Station was the grandest of them all IMHO.
Today Baltimore has a Penn Station, Trenton sort of has a Penn Station and Ptiisburg technically has a Penn Station, but trains don't stop in any of the other ones. I have a 1955 world Atlas and in the back it has detail maps of majour US cities (down to about a level of Arkon and Atlantic City). In the east coast most of the maps have a little square labeled Pennsylvania Station.
Wasn't the whole idea of a "Union Station" so that multiple railroads would use one terminal? Obviously, in Washington, both the B&O and the PRR used Union Station. If they had built two separate terminals, perhaps then it would be appropriate to name the one that served PRR as "Penn Station."
Well nobody says that the PRR could have built the station and the other RR's would have been tennants.
Fortunately or unfortunately, that's not what happened. Union Station, Washington, was not built by the PRR and leased to other railroads. It was, IIRC, a joint venture by the RRs and the feds.
IIRC, the original Penn Station in D.C. was located along the mall somewhere betw. the capitol and the Potomac; at the time, there was a canal where Constitution Avenue is. It took some political wrangling to persuade the PRR to relocate to the less-convenient present location of Union Station.
When the R-68s were first put on-line, many trains were run from the half-width cabs, with the full-width cabs being reserved for the conductor. In fact, I do remember seeing the full-width cab end of the front car facing the rear of the train on more than one consist.
As more of the R-68s joined the fleet, all of the trains were realigned to be operated from the full-width cab end.
How were these cars turned around? Does the TA maintain some sort of subway car turntable, or were the cars lifted off the tracks, turned around, and re-railed? Why were the trains allowed to be run from the half-width cabs in the first place?
Another question is about the R-68's compressed air system. When new, the R-68's air system produced two short bursts of air when it was cycling on or off. It was amusing to hear an 8-car train going "chh-CHHH!" one car at a time, in no set pattern. This system was also found on the overhauled "Green Hornet" R-10s before they went to the scrap heap.
Also, when the brakes were released, the R-68 produced a long sigh of air followed by a high-pitched whistle, which I found to be unique.
Now, because of the less-audible air system in the R-68's, and the conversion to running the trains from the full-width cab end, I see no real pleasure in riding on these once-captivating cars.
By the way, my handle "SilverFox" comes from the original name given to the overhauled cars you call "Redbirds," because of their SILVER roofs and FOX red sides.
Glad to be a part of SubTalk.
Much cooler name than Redbird. They couldn't at least call them Cardinals.
I don't know how those cars were turned around, but cars can be turned around on any line that has a loop and crossovers.
The CI terminal is one giant loop. If an R32 N train uses the outer track, the same end which is at the front of a CI bound train would be at the front of a Manhattan bound D train if the train continued past Stillwell Ave.
How were these cars turned around?
Cars get turned around in one of two ways. They either get 'looped' in a yard or they are turned on a 'wye'. For example at Concourse Yard we might run a car into Bedford Park Blvd. on C-5 track. Then reverse it into 205th St on C-2 Track and then back to Concourse Yard on C-7 track. By doing that, the consist has been turned around.
Why were the trains allowed to be run from the half-width cabs in the first place?
The R-68 was designed to operate either way. Naturally, the crews perferred the transverse cabs. It just became common practice to set up trains with the #1 cab in both T/O & C/R operating positions. Of course now that the cars are linked, there is no longer an option.
When new, the R-68's air system produced two short bursts of air when it was cycling on or off. It was amusing to hear an 8-car train going "chh-CHHH!" one car at a time, in no set pattern. This system was also found on the overhauled "Green Hornet" R-10s before they went to the scrap heap.
I don't see the question here. The blow of air that you hear are the auto-drains. Their primary function is to exhaust condensate into the atmosphere before it contaminates the air system.
Now, because of the less-audible air system in the R-68's, and the conversion to running the trains from the full-width cab end, I see no real pleasure in riding on these once-captivating cars.
With the exception of the replacement of the brake valve and the re-calibration of the 'emergency variable load valve, the R-68 brake system is essentially the same as when delivered. It should sound the same. This is by contrast to other classes of subway cars where they were delivered with Steel shoes and were later modified to accept composition shoes.
I agree that they basically sound the same today as they did in 1986. However, with all the GOH'ed older car types now sounding a lot like the R68, the R68's sound has lost it's uniqueness and that's probably why some people think they have changed. I miss the days of the Darth Vader R40/42's, the deflating balloon R32/R38 and the whistling R46. At least the R44 has retained it's flatulance sound.
There I agree with you. The R-46, when overhauled in 1992, was given the same brake package that the R-68s had 6 years earlier. Ditto for 1/2 of the R-32 fleet (in 1988/89).
09/03/2000
[At least the R44 has retained it's flatulance sound]
Listen carefully next time an R-44 brakes release. The second part of the release sounds much like the R1-9 release. Sortof an update if you will!
Bill "Newkirk"
09/03/2000
[ I miss the days of the Darth Vader R40/42's]
A ride on PATH should help you reminice. Remember the D4 compressors on the R-38's? When they would shut off, there was an unusual air sound, something like a "spinoff". I don't recall any other equipment with that type of sound. Then again, I don't recall any other equipment that had the R-46 as built "whistle" brake release.
Bill "Newkirk"
[Naturally, the crews perferred the transverse cabs.]
Why? Is it simply because there is more room? Or is there another reason? I've seen posts where railfans have described a T/O yelling at them to get away from the front window, even though it's in a 'public' area. What's it to them, anyway?
BTW, on my Metro-North trip this weekend, I heard from the engineer (are they referred to as 'T/Os' on MN?) that the next generation MUs will have full-width cabs, unfortunately, which seemed to please him as much as it bummed me out.
Why? Is it simply because there is more room? Or is there another reason?
I think room is the primary issue although I'm sure others may have differing views.
I've seen posts where railfans have described a T/O yelling at them to get away from the front window, even though it's in a 'public' area. What's it to them, anyway?
First, don't believe everything you read hear. A few months ago we had a gentleman who swore that he saw a train operator come out of his cab and threaten to have 2 youths arrested only because they were non-whites. He refused to back up his claim with any facts but did try to paint himself a hero by saying he stepped in to right the injustice. Of course, there are reasons that a train operator may not want a passenger standing by the crew door. First, the changes in light passing through the polarized glass might be distracting. Second, people lean on the glass and sometimes push open the crew door, accidentally. Then there are just some people who don't like other people watching over their shoulder while they work. Perhaps they are smoking or drinking coffeee (against the rules) and don't like being observed. Lastly, there are some motormen who are just plain nasty, like the one on the D line who slammed the crew door in my 8 year-old granddaughter's face, a few weeks ago.
If I were you, I'd report that idiot.
Oh, I think we can do better than that.
Re-assigning him to the Franklin Ave. shuttle during the overnight shift?
I think I can answer the question about the air system on the R-68s. The first 225 R-68s came with New York Air Brake RSU (Rotary Screw Unit) compressors. They made a "tch tch" sound when they activated. They also tended to leak like you wouldn't believe, if memory serves, and they were replaced at the earliest opportunity with Westinghouse Air Brake Company D-4S units -- the last 200 cars, and all R-68As, came with WABCO D-4S units.
David
The first 225 R68s "2500-2724" were the Primary Orders. The last 200 R68s "2725-2924" were the option order. They were built by different sub contractors.
running on...
or
The original order debuted on the D in October 1986. The option order debuted on the in May1987, immediatey after the N/R terminal switch in Queens.
THE R68A debuted on the northern half of the split D line in April 1988.
Just thought I'd add that.
Chris,
DID the original R-68s debut on the D line as you said? I remember the D being all R-40Ms and R-42s until the first R-68As (5000-5008) appeared in the Concourse yard in 98 or even 99, as most of the builder's plates on the R-68As suggest (I attended Bronx Science from 86-89, so I was constantly peering down at the Concourse yard cut).
As far as I remember, the original batch of 68s were initially run nearly exclusively on BMT trackage along Broadway, into Brooklyn, and to either Coney Island or Fort Hamilton on the N, R and (Broadway) D. Some of this initial batch made its way to the F line for a spell as well. These were subsequently assigned exclusively to the N and Q lines while the 68As were assigned to Concourse.
Now, the R-68/R-68A fleet is assigned in seemingly haphazard fashion across three lines: The B, D, and N.
Am I right? I don't remember fully.
I was on the first train of R-68s in revenue service, on April 16, 1986. It ran on the D. That was 12 days before the A/B tracks on the Manhattan Bridge closed and the D was split into Concourse/Sixth Avenue and Brighton/Broadway sections.
David
Wow, I never saw any R68's until October. Must've been the first test train.
'twas indeed the test train. It left Stillwell Avenue late, and we got as far as W. 8th Street before we had a problem (with the doors). I got off at Kings Highway and went home (it was early on a Sunday morning and I had to work later that day), but some of my friends stayed on the train.
David
This is all the ways the R68A has ever been signed up. If there are any more, tell me. The homestead server is a litle slow so just hold on...
I know that either the 68 or the 68A ran on the F for a short time when they were first delivered...
Yes, some did in September and October 1987.
D 205th ST/Brighton
D Coney Island/57th Street ?
R-68s on the "D"(late nights due to G.O.s) have recently (last 3 months) been signed:
205th, Bronx
D
World Trade Center
&
205th, Bronx
D
Second Ave, Manhattan
I ride them every morning at 3 am.
Peace,
ANDEE
Do they run along 6th Ave. when going to WTC? In any case, I presume they're making all local stops.
No they run along 8th Avenue, express to 59th and then local to WTC.
Except on Mondays, local on 8th ave the whole distance to 2nd ave. Due to track work around 7th ave.
Peace,
ANDEE
Oh, and it's a split service with the change point being W4th.
Peace,
ANDEE
The 2500-2799 series debuted on the Broawday D and Q in the fall of 1986. The 2800 series debuted on the N in late spring 1987. The Sixth Ave. D used R42's almost exclusively until the R68A's showed up in the spring of 1988. I remember a newspaper article about Bronx D riders complaning they had to suffer with the older cars (the R42's assigned to this line were in awful shape, many had no lights and none had working AC) while the more affluent residenst of southern Brooklyn got the new cars.
Yes, I remember those pre-GOH R-42s well, In my nightmares. Always got a seat though.
Peace,
ANDEE
Ever do 45 MPH along the CPW express tracks in a dark R42? What a rush!
Did that maaaaaaaannnnnnnnny times.
Peace,
ANDEE
That A train of slant R-40s I took on Easter Sunday in 1978 provided quite a rush, even though it was fully lit. Needless to say, the R-10s always provided a rush on that stretch. Looking back, I've ridden along that stretch on just about every piece of equipment you can think of except the R-11s, R-16s, and R-46s. The breakdown goes something like:
R-1/9 - D 3 or 4 times
R-10 - A many, many times; D once
R-27/30 D
R-32 - D
R-38 - A
slant R-40 - A at least once
R-42 - D
R-44 - A
R-68 - D
I did ride on an E train of oldtimers out to Queens with a dark first car once, on (of all days) July 1, 1968.
"Bronx D riders complaning they had to suffer with the older cars (the R42's assigned to this line were in awful shape, many had no lights and none had working AC) while the more affluent residenst of southern Brooklyn got the new cars."
Yeah, right. The D uses different equipment in the Bronx than it does in South Brooklyn!
Elias
"Chris R16" was speaking of conditions in 1986, after the Manhattan Bridge A/B tracks closed, causing D service to be split into two sections. The Bronx/Manhattan section had R-42s that were in deplorable condition, while the Manhattan/Brooklyn section was receiving then-new R-68s.
David
From April 1986 to December 1988 it did. The Brooklyn "D" ran along Broadway to 57th and 7th during this period, when the new R68's went nto service. This section got them first, leaving the 205th St to 34th St section left with awful pre-GOH R42 cars.
From April 1986 to December 1988 it did. The Brooklyn "D" ran along Broadway to 57th and 7th during this period, when the new R68's went into service. This section got them first, leaving the 205th St to 34th St section left with awful pre-GOH R42 cars.
So I was right in hearing that "tch tch" sound on the original batch of R-68s, and that this air system was replaced at a later date.
Thanks, David, for affirming this observation.
I rode on a few trains of R-68s with the half cab of the first car facing out. Nice railfan view, I must say.
Yesterday I rode the #2 out to Flatbush and looked through the Railfan Window®.
Just as you're leaving the southbound Nevins Street station, the tunnel widens a bit and you see a flight of steps, or at least a shaft, descending down. Where does it go?....
www.forgotten-ny.com
It must be the lower level at Nevins. There is a platform under the IRT platforms. I think it was for the G train...
3TM
No, it's for a connection that was never built. The station was redesigned after construction was already well underway ca. 1908 and the platform was abandoned. See Brennan's Guide to Disused and Abandoned Stations for more information.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
IIRC, Nevins was a 3 track local station (notice the now unused trackway running down the middle). The outside local tracks were added after the Clark St. tubes were opened and the IRT was extended east of the old Atlantic Ave. terminal.
Nevins was a 3 track local station
That may have been the original plan, but that wasn't what was ultimately built. Quoting from Brennan's Guide (linked in my earlier post): The main level was nearly completed with three tracks and side platforms when new plans required its conversion into four tracks with island platforms, which was accomplished by adding a track on each side and leaving a space where the center track would have been. That center trackway has never been used, just as the lower level platform was never completed. BTW, you can see the lower platform from doors in the underpass that cuts across it; the last time I was there one of them had a missing slat and you could get quite a good view.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I only saw the lower level on the southbound side. Never on the Manhattan bound side.....
3TM
Exactly, since that's where it is - outbound only.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I have a possible explanation for the particular design of the Nevins Street station. When the Dual Contracts of 1913 were being drawn up, the City received many proposals from the Interborough and the B.R.T. One of the proposals, if memory serves me correctly, was to re-build the Third Ave. Elevated for heavier steel subway cars and to connect them to the I.R.T.'s Brooklyn subway via the north side tracks of the Manhattan Bridge, go a short distance on Flatbush Ave., and connect to the Nevins Street station. The proposal was fought by the B.R.T. because it would have altered their track plans for DeKalb Ave. station, not to mention the loss of two tracks on the north side of the Manhattan Bridge. There is a reference to this in Cunningham and DeHarts book, "RAPID TRANSIT IN BROOKLYN". The City sided with the B.R.T. and the I.R.T. proposal was discarded. I don't know if this had anything to do with the unused Lafayette Ave. connection tunnel, which was filled in by later subway construction. Maybe someone has some info on that Lafayette Ave connection. ELKEEPER
According to an article in Sunday’s Star Ledger, Transit is moving forward with many new projects without worrying where the money will come from. Federal transit sources face drastically increased competition, Transit’s state operating budget for 2001 was cut 4% by the governor and legislature, fare increases are considered counter-productive. Transit officials say they’re dealing with it; not to worry.
Union County officials say funding for the $700 mil light rail line through Elizabeth will come through, as they’re looking for help from the private sector and the Port Authority.
Help from the Port Authority for transit? Surely you jest.
My reaction also.
New York State's third largest political party is conducting a poll on the transportation bond act at www.ipny.org. It is considering taking a position.
I was able to vote. You don't have to be a member to vote. You just click on "poll" in the main menu, then click on the pull down which leads "undecided" to get the choices.
I voted that transportation improvments are needed, but the state already has too much debt, so they should be funded by other means.
I encourage Subtalkers to vote in the poll. SOMEONE is at least thinking about an issue that concerns us.
[I encourage Subtalkers to vote in the poll. SOMEONE at least is thinking about an issue that concerns us.]
Actually, it concerns ALL residents of the State of New York (who, if it passes, will end up paying for it), whether they post here or not. However, I'll have to go back to the newspapers and read up some more before forming an opinion.
Also, could that poll possibly get more informal?! Eleven votes (as of 9:00PM on 3 September) is nowhere near anything that could be called statistically significant.
(Also, could that poll possibly get more informal?)
As far as I know, it was just put up. I'd like to try to call attention to it. The IP is the only one asking anyone's opinion.
As of 8:45 a.m. on 9/4/00, there were 15 votes tabulated, four of which favored the bond issue.
New York State's third largest political party is conducting a poll on the transportation bond act at www.ipny.org. It is considering taking a position.
Is that based on party enrollment or the result of the last election?
(New York State's third largest political party is conducting a poll on the transportation bond act at www.ipny.org. It is
considering taking a position.
Is that based on party enrollment or the result of the last election?)
I believe it is based on enrollment, but I don't know much about this sort of stuff.
IIRC the amount of votes cast at the last general election determines which parties are bigger than others. I'd guess that means for major posts such as president. That was how the Conservative Party grabbed Row C from the Liberals in the 70's. Are they still on Row C? Just curious.
(IRC the amount of votes cast at the last general election determines which parties are bigger than others. I'd guess that means
for major posts such as president. That was how the Conservative Party grabbed Row C from the Liberals in the 70's. Are
they still on Row C? Just curious.)
The Independence Party is on row C. But back to the point.
For those who haven't seen it, the IP is considering taking a position on the State Transportation Bond Act and is taking a poll at www.ipny.org. I've voted already, and anyone can. I urge everyone to cast a vote. You don't get a change to express on opinion on a transportation subject very often. I voted to fund the improvments, but NOT with more debt.
For those who haven't seen it, the Independence Party (ie. Tom Golisano for Governor in 1994 and 1998) is considering taking a position on the State Transportation Bond Act and is taking a poll at www.ipny.org. I've voted already, and anyone can. I urge everyone to cast a vote. You don't get a change to express on opinion on a transportation subject very often. I voted to fund the improvments, but NOT with more debt.
To my horror, yes votes appear to be even with nos. I'm willing to borrow to build the Second Avenue Subway, but not to study it.
The Labor Day/West Indian Day Parade will kick off tomorrow at 10am. Best transit options:
IRT: 2,3,4 trains to any stop from GAP to Utica Ave. The 4 train will be making local stops from Atlantic to Utica.
BMT: Franklin Shuttle to Botanic Gardens.
IND: D train to Prospect Park for Shuttle.
Come out and enjoy the festivities.........
3Train#2032Mike
The Eastern Parkway/ Brooklyn Museum station will be closed. NYCT also suggests avoiding the Franklin Ave IRT station(234)
Thanx, subway-buff. I knew you would have the correct info. I will make my way out to the parade now that the rain has ceased. From looking out my window, the 3 train was already packed with passengers heading to the parade. This is at Penn Ave........
3TM
Also, passengers may want to avoid Utica Ave as well. It have been by personal accounts ( used to live by the Utica IRT station) and newspaper accounts that this is where a lot of people gather. It is of course, where the parade begins.......
3TM
I just got my new CTA Smart Card a few weeks ago and have to say that it is really neat. For all of the stupid things that the CTA has done in the past, they have always had fare collection technology at the highest level, and it will be pretty hard to top this.
I didn't realize for the first few days that I had it, that you don't even need to take it out of your wallet. After removing it and putting it back like I was used to with the Transit Card, the Agent at Addison St. on the Red Line stopped my the other day after entering. I thought, oh no, did I drop or loose something, or something dumb like that. He just said, "hey, so you know for next time, you don't even need to take it out of your wallet." I said thanks and walked up to the platform. I though, no way, it can't be that cool, but he was right!!
For example, I have a tri-fold wallet, with my Smart Card & Metra 10 ride ticket in one of the pockets, along with many other cards & money in the back. When I want to add value to the Smart Card, I just press "C" on the Transit Card Machine, add value, wave my folded wallet in front of the Smart Card pad, take it away, take the money out of my wallet I want to add, put it in the machine, hold up my folded wallet again, and after a second or two it says Thank You. I then press "B", check value, just to make sure it was added, wave my folded wallet again, and the value is shown as being on the Smart Card.
To enter, I just hold my folded wallet up to the pad on front of the turnstile, the enter light comes on along with the beep, put my wallet back in my pocket and enter. I didn't realize until I was comparing how long it took me to enter compared to other people with transit cards, that it really does save you time. Only about 5 seconds or less, but when you are racing to catch a train at the last minute, it does really help.
The only downfall, is the $5.00 cost of the card, which comes with no value on it. You then have to add value at a Transit Card Machine. Many people won't buy these just because of the cost. If they are successful with the pilot program of them, then hopefully, the CTA might consider free advertising for the company that makes them for the cards for free in return. It does make sense though, the card does have a computer chip in it, and like everything else these days, nothing is cheap or free.
I can only recommend to any of you other Chicago Sub-Talkers who don't have a card, to get one. You can purchase them on their web site at TransitChicago.com or in person weekdays from 9-5 (I Think) at their offices inside the Merchandise Mart.
Any of your thoughts on it or any fare collection technology in other places similar would be appreciated.
BJ
Sounds pretty much like the smart card they introduced here in DC in 1999. The $5 cost of the card isn't bad. The only negative at present is the buses aren't equipped for them, so you still have to pay separately.
I just got my CTA SmartCard a few weeks ago but I didn't use it yet. I use SmarTrip here in D.C. It has the same features as Chicago like being able to register it and getting a extra ride if you don't have enough money. It costs $5 too but it costs $10 to make each card. It makes it a lot faster getting thru the faregates by waving it over the target instead of inserting a farecard in the faregate and waiting for it to come out.
I just got my CTA SmartCard a few weeks ago but I didn't use it yet. I use SmarTrip here in D.C. It has the same features as Chicago like being able to register it and getting a extra ride if you don't have enough money. It costs $5 too but it costs $10 to make each card. It makes it a lot faster getting thru the faregates by waving it over the target instead of inserting a farecard in the faregate and waiting for it to come out.
I would like to share about the smart card technology using in Hong Kong. The card, called "Octopus", is a smart card for public transportation. The card has been introduced since 1998. It can be used on railway (KCR), light rail (LRT), subways (MTR include Airport Railway), buses (operated by 3 major bus cimpany) and ferries.
This card is really convenient for us. The deposit(not the cost include the cost HK$60(US$7.7)which is gain from the intrest of the deposit) is HK$50 (US$6.4), and value instored vary when you buy different kinds of cards, i.e. HK$20(US$2.6) for children and elders, HK$50(US$6.4) for students and HK$100(US$12.8) for adults. The difference betwwen Adult card and other kinds are the fare. Childern(below 12) and elders(above 65) pay half fare in all kinds of transport and student pay half fare in MTR. The value can add to HK$1000(US$128) in the Value Add Machine.
A "dod" sound can be heard when you get across the fare collection control. As same as the CTA Smart Card, it is a non-connective chip card which can detect your card in your wallet or your bag. As this is a bit pineeor, when you add the value of your card, you have to put your card in it. besides that, most of the application(even adding vaue with the staff aid) just need to wave or place on the sensor.
I didn't even know that D.C. or Hong Kong also had these cards. They are very cool.
Do the new Turnstiles that are now standard in NYC have a "Smart Card" reader on the front of them?? They received the Magnetic Strip Card reading turnstiles about the same time we did here in Chicago, and ours came with the readers already installed in them. The CTA just had them hidden.
They had a blue circle on front of the turnstiles where the Smart Card reader is at, they just said CTA in the CTA's logo style for the first few years. Now that they introduced it, they put Smart Card Reader Stickers on all of these circles. Same thing with all the squares on all of the Transit Card Machines.
I guess the elderly were using them in a pilot program for reduced fare riders when the new equipment originally arrived. That's why they decided to debut the Transit Card first and wait a couple years with the Smart Card. It makes it a lot easier for the elderly if the pass recognizes and tells the collection equipment to charge the reduced fare and deducts the reduced fare all in one shot, instead of two. Before they had to insert a reduced fair permit which told the equipment to only charge reduced fair (.75 instead of 1.50), then they had to install a reduced fare card with the actual monetary value on it that was deducted. This was a lot of effort for elderly passengers to do and sometimes causes lines and waits.
NYC's Metro Card readers are easier to use with the swipe and go technology then our insert, remove, and walk through readers here in Chicago. You just had to make sure it said "go" and not walk into a hard turnstile bar. I saw many people do this on my last vacation in NYC this past Spring.
I think they would be a good addition for NYC, just don't know if their equipment is capable of handeling the "Smart Cards". They just replaced them on the entire system to handle Magnetic Stip Cards, it would cost a lot to change all of them again!! NYC has better things to do with it's money. Although the people here on this board think it could be used much better then it currently is used. I guess I think that way about the CTA sometimes also.
BJ
They can replace token slots with them. The turnstiles are already digital.
Vending Machines have a strange round mirrory thing some people think may be a camera.
It's the same mfg. at Washington D.C., Chicago, Hong Kong & NYC.
I obtained a sample of the Washington (SmarTrip) & Chicago(GO Card) cards. I also have a Hong Kong "Discovery Bay" hard plastic card, but I don't think it's the smart card.
I've also heard that NYC is THINKING about smart cards here ... probally waiting to see how they do in Wash & Chicago, then they'll invent them here :-( The newest reads REQUIRE you to put the card into a port.
Mr t__:^)
Discovery Bay plastic card is a magnatic strip card. The smart card using in Hong Kong has the word "Octopus" on the left hand corner with the Chinese name(Pls don't ask me what is the meaning of it) and the background of the card is the infinitive sign.
While riding to and from a party today, I made the following observations. The big screens are in live testing on the red line. The only interesting facts to note about them are that if they are delays, they are of very little use. There was a delay in the opposite direction of where I was traveling and the signs were all blank. Also, they can't display how long a wait if the train is very far away. I observed this at White Flint while waiting for the Glenmont bound train. At Grosvenor if the train is heading out of service, it reads:
LIVE TEST
This train
out of service.
Please stand back.
3112 and 3113 have 2 emergency call buttons on each end and a glow in the dark panel with the car number. 3113 has a sick doorbell and so does 2015.
Hah! That's good stuff! I thought only our lovable R46's had sour bells (you should hear the one in R46 #6119 - UGH!) Was the little recorded voice "sour" as well? (Dawwwz cloooosinggggggg).....
wayne
I noticed those signs last week in my travels around the District on Metro. It seemed that every message had the 'test test test' first line followed by information which was useful (i.e. next train info at Rosslyn, King St and L'Enfant (Green/Yellow level outbound). The one at King also gave updates on the next train from about 8 minutes prior to arrival up until the train was in the station. I suppose at the junction stations this is useful especially to those who may be unfamiliar with Metro and the different lines, since the train destination signs are easy to miss and the PA's aren't always the best.
One touch which I found different and interesting, outside of the mellow 'doors opening/doors closing' message, was the one that asked that passengers please stand clear of the closing doors. Is this automatically tied into the door circuits or does the operator have this one at his/her option? (When I heard it, it always seemed to be after the second attempt to close doors.)
It seems to come on when the operator hits door open and door close very quickly. If the door is opened and closed after a longer wait, it does doors closing.
"Please stand clear of the doors. Thank You" is said if the doors have to be opened after the close button has been pushed but the doors didn't make it to closing.
I always thought that the closing bells were enough. Then they added the voice saying "Doors Closing." Next they may add "About to announce doors closing." :-)
Doors closing works fine, just the chime isn't.
I too noticed the two buttons on 3112, and I was wondering if they will be doing that on all cars to prevent false alarms and so they can be seen in a dark car (I guess that the intercoms are battery operated). As for the signs I have found that they are about a minute or so off and they do not always display correct info. Case in point: a couple days ago at the Faragut North station, in the Silver Spring - Glenmont direction, the signs stated that the next train was out of service, when in fact it was not. Later when I came back through there it had not been fixed. I don't know if WMATA has worked out the software glitches that have been plaguing the signs for the six months since they have been installed. Also, does anyone know the status of the relay replacement that will allow the trains to resume ATO?
...so they can be seen in a dark car...
Are dark cars in DC as common as they are in NY? Every day I almost always see at least one car (usually a pair) with the lights on emergency, yet the A/C is on.
I can just imagine the intercom calls now:
Hello, train person?
What?
There's no light here.
Oh.
Just thought you should know. I wouldn't have said anything, but all I could see was the intercom.
Actualy I have only been on one dark car (one car only, and it flipped people out), and it was the same day I saw the imtercoms, although not on the same car. Most of the problems in WDC have to do with the doors and the sensors connected to them.
They do lockout individual cars if there's a problem with its systems. I think the posting refers to visibility should a train become disabled in a tunnel and the lighting goes out.
Well I finished my MFL diagrams and Dave uploaded them. There are a few slight mistakes regarding signal aspects, but I'll send out an update at some point. Sorry to all your webTV users, but they are contained in a zip file. All 13 or so diagrams are like 106k zipped. I hope you enjoy them and PLEASE send me feedback.
MFL Track and Signal diagrams
This will make a great historical reference, now that it looks like they've started installing the new cab-signal system. I noticed on Saturday that they've posted special weekend schedules for the next two months for "track and signal work" on the east end of the line.
I made a few errors regarding the interlocking signals at Erie-Torresdale and for signal 12LA at 69th St. (I looked at pictures on this site) and I'll iron them out before the signals are all gone and people have to rely on these drawings.
1. At both 15th and 69th Streets, there are billboards about the Automatic Train Control project, the 69th Street one talking only about federal funding, but the 15th Street one has news of weekend closures. For anyone who wanted to take a weekend to ride the Frankford el this fall, they will be unable to do so. All September weekends beginning September 8-9 will have a Frankford el closure from Frankford to Spring Garden, and all October weekends will have an el closure to 5th Street, for the ATO project, and trackwork (I do not see where trackwork needs to be done, though). I presume they are not doing Frankford Terminal, since it still needs to be rebuilt. From 8PM Friday to 5AM Monday is the times.
2. Besides regular shuttle buses, SEPTA will be running an express shuttle, stopping at all corners from City Hall to 2nd and Market, then taking I-95 to bridge street, stopping again and Bridge and Torresdale, then again at Frankford Terminal. If this shuttle is faster than the el would be, it would become a sad day in the history of Philadelphia transit.
3. No news about the Market Street el reconsctruction.
4. No news about the doors or the seats.
Is it like the Cab Signaling on the P&W (Rt 100) or will it be like a PATCO ATO. What do they plan to do w/ all the signals?
From what I've heard about the ATO it will be more of a cab signalling project than anything else. The system will permit the removal of wayside signals and the start of a CBTC-type operation with provision for ATO but don't look to ATO just yet.
I'm not sure where the trackwork is on the el. This same closure has been in effect off and on over the past 2 years. I thought it had more to do with third rail replacement than anything else but I haven't heard any details on it.
The express shuttle bus (usually served by articulated buses on very close headways) has also been in use during el closures and, unfortunately, can be faster than the el itself. One variable in the el's favor is the unpredictability of I-95. Right now there is a significant project underway on the section of highway between Girard and Allegheny which has major impacts on traffic at nights and on weekends, so the bus may get delayed considerably or maybe even use Aramingo Avenue instead of 95. With the peppy new articulated buses available for this service (in place of the troubled Volvos) the ride will be fast if traffic permits.
Reports from 'Cinders' this month indicate that other M-4 problems are either solved or in the process of being worked out.
Last I heard, SEPTA is preparing to put the first Market St contract out for bids within the next month or so (this will be for the portion from 69th St to 63rd St, encompassing mostly surface running but also the large bridge over Cobbs Creek). Another contract for the column foundations and stubs (for the new single column supports) should be right behind.
How can I get copies of CINDERS
THank you
Steve
Join the Philadelphia Chapter of the NRHS.
Write to:
Philadelphia Chapter, NRHS
PO Box 7302
Philadelphia, PA 19101-7302
ask for a membership application.
If you already belong to the NRHS in another Chapter, you may join another as just a member of that Chapter.
I belong to the Baltimore Chapter (and the National) and a number of my Chapter friends belong to several other locals as well.
thank you
As Bob mentioned, it's really just cab singnaling, not ATO. They're also installing new "traction power return systems" to work with the M-4's regenerative braking. They've been working on new substations, including at Frankford and at the 40th St portal, for a while now. I assume the track work is in relation to that.
'Cinders' (Phila NRHS newsletter) reports that the M-4's are finally beginning to act like real railcars with MDBF at 60K miles over the past few months. Of course, Adtranz has had to make many modifications at the tune of nearly $100 M lost on the contract. I wonder if Adtranz will remain in the railcar business? Who knows...
I had heard separately that the SEPTA operating staff is finally pleased with the cars. Regardless, SEPTA expects a 40-year service life from them, so they're here for a while.
subway-buff and I were riding on a northbound "C" train Saturday; a consist of eight R38 cars (we were in the middle of the train, probably about the third car, it was #4066). We noticed a very LOUD whining sound, almost like a roar, which made it impossible to hold a conversation and was quite unpleasant to the ear. I haven't heard a sound like that (well, at least not THAT loud), so I'm wondering what might have caused it. The train did not exhibit any mechanical problems and moved through Cranberry Tube at about 40MPH.
thanks
Wayne
09/03/2000
Could that be the R-38 trainset with AC traction motors?
Bill "Newkirk"
That's a distinct possibility, Bill. I had forgotten about those cars. All I can say was this train was EXTREMELY loud and it wasn't coming from the wheels.
wayne
The R38 A/C propulsion test train has large red rectangular stickers under the numberboards.
Maybe that was the ghost of the R-10s.:-)
Was the sound present when the car was stopped in the station
as well? Air conditioning compressors sometimes make a roaring
sound. Some cars have PA problems and the PA emits a constant
squeal.
Was it coming from the PA speakers? Sometimes the DC/DC converters have problems and bleed a 400Hz squeal into the PA.
Well today I went for a ride on the #7 train and noticed that the R-33S cars have woken up and re-assumed their righteous position as the 3rd/9th car of the #7 trains.
At Times Square, I was the only one in the single car and I was standing near the door. The motorman was walking by and saw me in there, asked me "You're riding in this car? The other ones are cooler!"
He said it in a friendly way, so I said that I was a transit buff and enjoyed those cars.
Great, that means the noce, clear-windowed singles we had for the fantrip are back in the pool and probably messed up by now. Ah well, it was fun while it lasted.
Looks like Labor Day weekend brought with it 11-car 7 trains. I noticed them on Saturday. Didn't ride it on Saturday, but didn't mind boarding 9333 this morning. They're nice and warm all year round. It was better than waiting for it in that relatively cold weather going on now.
The MNR Harlem and New Haven Lines share tracks between Grand Central and Woodlawn Stations. So why is it that New Haven Line trains only stop at the Fordham station and not the others (Melrose, Tremont, Gardens, etc.) when they very well could? All trains stop at East Harlem/125th, so I'm not counting that.
The same situation exists at Harmon Cove station with the Bergen County and Pascack Valley lines. Pascack Valley trains pass the HC station, but none stop there.
WHY?
The same situations may exist on the LIRR but I'm not aware of them.
Must be a carry-over from many moons ago when the Harlem was NY Central and The New Haven line was the New Haven. I can't remember any New Haven trains making any stops in the Bronx but guess Fordham has been made a New Haven stop for the bus connections. That line was New York Central country and the New Haven only had trackage rights into GCT so I suppose the NY Central took all the traffic for itself. So the situation remains almost the same years later under MTA. I can't think of any other reasons besides "that's the way we always did it".
May I suggest that there could be two other reasons why this phenomenon persists?
1) Commuters from CT (which state pays for the NH trains) want to get to GCT ASAP and don't give fig for the BX.
2) Politicians in CT (rightly or wrongly) believe that the immidiately preceding statement is true.
The New Haven, Like the rest of Metro North, the LIRR and NJT all run express trains in and out of the city, and are not rapid transit lines serving the city. Some may travel as far as New Haven before making their first stop. I know that the LIRR does this, as I used to ride a train that made Merrick its first stop, and Wantaugh its last stop.
The Fordam stop is for the convience of people wishing to travel between the Bronx and CT.
While I have always thought that the TA should make subway service available on the Metro-North lines in the Bronx, I also think that the commuter trains should come in without making any of these stops.
Finally, the price of riding MN trains from the bronx would be quite a bit higher than the subway, which means that there may not be all that much demand for such service.
Elias
MNRR Hudson Line
Monthly Commutation fare between Harlem-125th St. and GCT: $94
Monthly Commutation fare between Bronx (Morris Hts., Univ. Hts., Marble Hill, Spuyten Duyvil, & Riverdale) & GCT: $108
MTA New York City Transit
30-Day Unlimited Ride Metrocard: $63
You tell me. Are they trying to discourage use of MNRR for Bronx-Manhattan commutation or not?
Looks to me like a higher price for a superior service.
No different than the nonsense that goes on in Queens with the L.I.R.R.
EXAMPLE, $103.00 monthly Woodside to NYP.
Peace,
ANDEE
(So why is it that New Haven Line trains only stop at the Fordham station and not the others (Melrose, Tremont, Gardens, etc.) when they very well could?)
Connecticut residents do not want to provide any services for New Yorkers in general, and Bronx residents in particular. At Fordham, the southbound trains will let people off (perhaps traveling Bronx-Connecticut) but not on (Bronx-Manhattan). Vice-versa going north. Of course, Connecticut residents are allowed to ride the subway.
Many better off Bronx residents would choose to pay for a premium service, since some may want to be separated from the very poor people further south, and nearly all would like to get off that packed Lex line. If I lived in Bedford Park or Woodlawn, I might take the subway myself, but I'd spring for Metro North for my wife, so she wouldn't have to deal with that packed in unpleasant ride.
East Bronx Metro North service would be a winner for that reason.
The Pascack line trains should stop at HC, if only so that a poor misguided soul who gets on the wrong train has a chance at getting home without paying an assload of money for a cab (The Bergen line is two way, the Pascack is not).
The LIRR has similar situations, such as:
Long Island City/Hunterspoint trains do not stop at Woodside, Forest Hills, or Kew Gardens. The same with diesel trains out of Penn. This dooms passengers at those three stops to never get direct trains into diesel territory.
Floral Park has platforms for direct trains from the main line, but I think only one inbound train a day uses it (no outbound), so passengers going between the Hempstead branch and the Ronkonkoma, Port Jeff, and Oyster Bay lines must cross another fare zone into Jamaica before getting to their train (costing more money).
Many Montauk trains use the Main Line, but only 2 outbound actually stop at Mineola, and one of those 2 at Hicksville, and only one inbound hits those stops. Service is so infrequent that punching 'Babylon' from Mineola on a TVM gives you a 'Via Jamaica' ticket, someone who regularly uses that service says he has to punch 'Huntington' to get a correct ticket.
Has anybody every associated any song or other music with certain trains, buses or other transit scenes or vehicles? I have. It may sound wierd, but here's a list of the ones I can think of off-hand:
"Sun Goddess" (Ramsey Louis/Earth Wind & Fire) - IRT lines in the Bronx
"Golden Lady" (Stevie Wonder) - IRT Lines in the Bronx
"I'm Gonna Love You Just A Little More, Baby" (Barry White) - Staten Island Ferry
"Never Never Gonna Give You Up" (Barry White) - Staten Island Ferry
"My Cherie Amour" (Stevie Wonder) - PCC cars in Boston
"Careless Whisper" (George Michael) - long-distance bus trip
"Give Me The Night" (George Benson) - TA RTS bus
"After The Love Has Gone" (Earth Wind & Fire) - Septa Regional train
Yes, this is the type of music I, a 17-year old, listens to.
Many of my 1950's rock & roll and rhythm and blues songs, actually up to about 63, reminded me of train rides on various pieces of NYCT, mostly a IRT; a couple reminded me of CTA south side el and one, the State St. subway. Try "I Wonder Why" by Dion & Belmonts...now listen and think hard! The 7th Ave. express in the High-V/Low-V days between 96th and 72nd!. Guess you'd have to have been there to know what I mean, I have many like that but too many to mention.
38 Special: "Back Where You Belong", video features Kawasaki "B-4" Broad Street Subway train.
Well, since we're including the videos, the video of Joan Osborne's One of Us was filmed around Coney Island, with several shots of the el in the background.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Hong Kong MTR trains were in a video by a Chinese pop group Beyond, the song "I miss you" (Mandarin).
I'm turning 18 in a few months and I listen to music stranger than that:)
"Sussudio" by Phil Collins on the NJT NE Corridor Line, especially as you get closer to NYC.
The midi of the song plays on 5 pages of my website.
Hey, I'm 16 and have over 150 Motown CDs. It's my other big hobby, and I've got a few transit associated songs...
"Say You" by The Temptations... Grand Central Terminal
"You've Really Got A Hold On Me" by The Jackson 5... Roosevelt Ave. terminal station
"Too Busy Thinking About My Baby" by Jimmy Ruffin... that picture of the R40 Slant next to the R16 on the Culver Shuttle
LIRR approaching East River tunnels-Dave Koz "That's the way I feel about you"
E,F Queens Blvd Express-MLTR "That's why you Go Away"
Manhattan Bridge-R.E.M. "At my Most beautiful"
IRT 4,5 lines between 42nd and 86th Debarge "All This Love"
LIRR express between Mineola and Jamaica, Glen Frey "I've Got Mine"
6TH ave IND 34TH to W4TH dash, Mike + the Mechanics "Another Cup of Coffee"
LIRR between Jamaica and Rockville Centre, Atlantic Starr "I'll Remember You"
For me, buses don't bring up nearly as much emotion as trains.
well it's now labor day... officially a day to honor the labors of working men, women, and children in this country... i think we should also include the poorly paid working men, women, and children in the "3rd world countries" whose labors have contributed to our high standard of living...
we should certainly give thanks to those men and women who work on this very day to transport us from place to place, both in operations and maintenance of the system... perhaps give thanks to the very subway cars and buses whose daily labors are taken for granted...
and then also consider how our own working lives can be a blessing to those we serve and to ourselves...
in a larger sense, there is the work of our spiritual lives in discovering and realizing our life's purpose...
with all this in mind, may we all travel safely and with grace today and on everyday of our lives...
i also would hve to include the ""workfare"" or WEP or Gain workers
as well thankz ...
I suppose that does not include Salaam Allah who seems to be feeding of the fruits of our labors. Otherwise, I agree totally.
fruts of waht labors ? my people built america & it was stolen from them !! ( black & american indian ) who worked harder than we did ?
So now you're aligned with the American Indian. Last week it was the hispanics. Next week it'l be the lesbian eskimos. The fact is, Salaam, your arguments are wearing thin. Even among your own, it's starting to be a big "NO SALE". Here in the Big Apple, the "Million Youth March", led by the super-racist Kalid Muhammad, fell 999,700 youths short. However, if you want to talk about what your people have built, look at Brownsville 50 years ago and look at it now.
Next week it'l be the lesbian eskimos.
Ha!!!!!!!!! Funny.
Here in the Big Apple, the "Million Youth March", led by the super-racist Kalid Muhammad, fell 999,700 youths short.
He is indeedy. Full of hate, attracts so few.
mr dude you are so full of pure bullshit that you dont know your head from your ass !! ( the best way that can be told )
Oh, and what did I say exactly that you disagree with. Only 300 miscreants (perhaps 350) showed up to hear the racist clap-trap from that chicken-shit kalid. As for you, you've aligned yourself with hispanics and now with American (native) americans. Can't your group stand alone or do you need legitimate groups to prop up your weak-kneed bretherend? Come on salaam - let's hear some truth come out of that garbage can you call a brain.
If you don't like to hear the truth, then by all means, skip my posts you racist jackass. I'd love to see you struck by lightning but it would be a waste of a good bolt. Let me know when you'll be in town next - please!!!
I would be grateful for any insight to the following questions...
1) Do all the trackless trolley routes run on the weekend?
2) What are the best trackless trolley photostops?
3) Where are the TT garages? Is one at Frankford?
4) Are any of the trackless trolley routes in neighbourhoods that would not be freindly towards a Canadian railfan?
5) Where are the best photo spots on the subway surface routes?
6) where is the trolley carhouse?
7) Where is Pat's steaks? It is accessible by transit?
8) If I wanted to take the train to Newark for a NCS ride - what is the best route? How long is the trip?
Thanks for any info.
8) If I wanted to take the train to Newark for a NCS ride - what is the best route? How long is the trip?
The cheapest route (and probably the best) is SEPTA from 30th Street or one of the other stations in Central Philadelphia to Trenton, change for NJ Transit to Newark. You're looking at about 2 1/2 hours each way, including a short layover in Trenton, and a round trip cost of a little over $20 on the weekend ($10.50 RTX fare on NJT, $10.00 on SEPTA). Make sure you purchase your tickets in advance from the TVMs - the fare penalty is $2 each way on SEPTA and $3 on NJT if you buy on the train.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
My advice for the cheapest methood:
Buy an NJT round trip ticket to Trenton, NOT Philly (even though you can).
At Trenton, buy a ONE WAY to Philly ($5).
In Philly, buy a day pass for $5, I usually get mine at 30st subway station.
If you'll notice, the day pass is good for unlimited rides on the Subways, trolleys, and short bus rides. Its also good for one free regional rail trip.
Use the free regional rail trip to get to Trenton, and the other half of the round trip to get to Newark.
Congradulations, you have just gotten free rides all day on the city transit, since the day pass costs the same as the Philly-Trenton ticket.
Hadn't thought about that... but you're right. Of course, he's starting in Philly, so he should buy the day pass first.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
1) Do all the trackless trolley routes run on the weekend?
Yes, but at longer headways than the week, of course.
2) What are the best trackless trolley photostops?
I couldn't say really because there aren't any very picturesque locations along any of the lines. But the 29 and 79 stop at Broad Street and stop at the BSS. The NE lines(59, 66 and 75) stop at Frankford Terminal and Maragret-Orthodox(the penultimate station) so there are some good pictures there.
3) Where are the TT garages? Is one at Frankford?
There is one in South Philly at 20th and Pollock(near I-76)because that network does not connect to the buses in the Northeast. The others are in the NE.
4) Are any of the trackless trolley routes in neighbourhoods that would not be freindly towards a Canadian railfan?
Yes. Some parts of Frankford can be less than welcoming after dark. The South Philly routes(mainly the 29 west of Broad) run through some of Philly's roughest areas.
5) Where are the best photo spots on the subway surface routes?
At the portal at 40th and Baltimore. The rest are really a matter of opinion. You can get a good picture just about anywhere.
6) Where is the trolley carhouse?
At around 42nd and Baltimore. There used to be one at 59th and Vine but it was partially gutted by a fire a few years ago and served the now bus-run 15, which is in the process of being converted back into a light rail line for 2002.
7) Where is Pat's Steaks? It is accessible by transit?
12th and Passyunk, 2 blocks west of the Snyder station of the BSS.
Some of the trackless lines operate as buses on the weekends. It's been an operational problem for a while and it seemed to be solved but now it's happening again. This is particularly evident on the 29 and 79 (South Phila).
A good spot to photograph TT's in South Phila is at the west end of 29, which is an off-street 'loop' at 33rd & Dickinson Streets. Good photos of Frankford Yard can also be had from the El platform and from the surface right in front of the yard. The north end of 66 has a similarly nice off-street 'loop' which is always busy and is good for picture taking.
The only TT depot in the Northeast is at Frankford.
Another good spot for trolley photos is 49th & Woodland, where 11 and 36 join/diverge. The Woodland Shop is also at this location and is a good spot to get photos of cars in the outdoor yard. There is no carhouse at 42nd & Baltimore. The Callowhill barn, at 58th & Callowhill, no longer houses trolleys but some may return with the revitalization of route 15 (although there are rumors that Callowhill may close with a new West Phila depot possibly in the works...).
Pat's Steaks is at the 'triangle' formed by 9th, Passyunk and Wharton Streets. You can get there by bus (47 on 7th & 8th, 47m (northbound only) on 9th, 23 on 11th & 12th). You can also walk from Ellsworth-
Federal station on the Broad Street subway (go 5 blocks east on Federal to 9th and one block south on 9th). You can also 'railfan' route 29 and get off at 9th, walking north 4 blocks from Morris (eastbound) or 3 blocks from Tasker (westbound) on 9th. Geno's, diagonally across the street, has a better sandwich, though.
Don't forget to get a Pat's King of Steaks T-shirt. Also check out both Pat's and Geno's web sites.
Thank you to all who responded to my post.
More questions have come to mind.
Is the Route 15 restroation a go?
Has funding been dedicated?
New cars ordered?
What is te time frame for the opening?
Is SEPTA planning to get rid of the trackless trolleys soon?
Construction has started on the Route 15 revitalization (at least the first phase - track, paving and power). New traffic signals (perhaps the second phase) are being designed. Don't expect much, though, since there will be only a few stretches of 'separated' R/W and even this will only be striped. About $37 million will be spent, most of it for power-related items, since much of the feeder and electrical network is inadequate (when K-cars were assigned to the line a couple of summers ago, when Route 10 was down due to construction, service had to be curtailed at Cumberland Loop since the power distribution system north/east of there couldn't support operation of air conditioned cars).
Work is supposed to be completed in fall '02. Whether service will resume then is still up in the air. SEPTA has tried to get bids for 12 articulated cars (yes, 12!), low floor of some sort, which would be used on Route 13 and displace 15-18 K-cars for Route 15 service. After 3 attempts, the bids are still too high (and, the last time, SEPTA in its infinite wisdom asked for quotes for 12 cars with an option for 60-70 more). There are some rumors that about 20 old PCC's still sitting at Midvale Depot (they haven't been sold off yet and are in very poor shape) may be extensively rehabbed, possibly with low floor center doors, and put in service on the new 15. (One of the flaws of the restoration of 15 is that the 20-year-old K's would provide service. This is OK but there is no provision for accessible service since the K's don't offer it. SEPTA is skirting the issue as much as possible, even to the point of noting that the current buses on the line aren't accessible either, so the service wouldn't be any worse!) The circus continues...
For about the past 5 years, all indications from SEPTA were that the TT network was probably going to disappear once the AMG's were life expired (and they are celebrating their 21st birthdays - hard to believe). Strangely enough, in its last budget, SEPTA requested funding for 60 new TT's and is thinking once again about expansion of the network, which might necessitate retention of some of the AMG's. The on-again, off-again Route 66 extension to Franklin Mills Mall might be the first part of this program, and a consolidation of the Route 53 north of Windrim Ave with existing Route 75 could warm up once again.
6) Where is the trolley carhouse?
There is also a carhouse at Elmwood and Island Rd for the Rt. 36. Several PCC cars as well as modern LRVs are stored there.
Elmwood Depot, at Elmwood Avenue and Island Road serves all subway-surface streetcar operations, not just Route 36.
I might point out that SEPTA is somewhat ambivalent towards railfans. Some employees are downright hostile, and SEPTA's Police force can be very heavy handed. All SEPTA Depots and shop facilities are fenced and marked NO TRESPASSING.
If you conduct yourself professionaly and avoid the "foamer" mode you will get a better reception.
If you bring a video camera, you can stand right next to the operator and video tape the entire subway part of the Subway Surface lines. And as long as you are in Phila, you might as well take the Broad Street Subway and Market-Frankford lines. A good meal can be gotten at the Melrose Diner and Broad and Snyder Avenues.
If you bring a video camera, you can stand right next to the operator and video tape the entire subway part of the Subway Surface lines. And as long as you are in Phila, you might as well take the Broad Street Subway and Market-Frankford lines. A good meal can be gotten at the Melrose Diner at Broad and Snyder Avenues.
If you bring a video camera, you can stand right next to the operator and video tape the entire subway part of the Subway Surface lines. And as long as you are in Phila, you might as well take the Broad Street Subway and Market-Frankford lines. A good meal can be gotten at the Melrose Diner at Broad St. and Snyder Avenue.
Also a Peter Witt in operating condition, used on charters.
As I recall from my once frequent BOS-NYC commutes, there are no storage lay-up tracks at Bridgeport. I'm remembering yards at Norwalk and Stamford, so I would guess that any train originating east of Norwalk would come out of New Haven....Am I correct?
There are layup yards 1 or 2 miles east of the station. They are before the bascule draw but after the draw over the Housatonic and Naugatuck Jct. They are directly north of Exit 30 on I-95 and there's a Phaze Break there as well.
I assume a Phaze Break is not a restaurant?
A Phaze Break is a section of overhead wire that can be switched off incase the 2 AC power supplies become out of phaze. From my experiance is it usually active because when the train passes the HEP goes out. There is another south of Stamford.
So, then, there are no deadheads from New Haven in the AM..?
I see a deadhead going toward Stamford almost every morning in the 5:10 to 5:25 time frame. The length varies from 2 - 12 cars.
Of course I can't tell if it came from Bridgeport or New Haven !!
Have a nice day !!
There is no yard at Norwalk. Only Stamford,Bridgeport and New Haven.
Two pocket tracks at South Norwalk though. They can not hold a full trainset, I don't know how many cars they could hold.
I used to see 2-car Budd car sets on them quite frequently. Presumably they were for runs up to Danbury.
The track on the eastbound side can hold 2 cars. The one on the westbound can hold 3 or 4. The are for the South Norwalk to Danbury runs.
The track on the eastbound side can hold 2 cars plus the locomotive. The one on the westbound can hold 3 or 4 plus the locomotive. The are for the South Norwalk to Danbury runs, which are not electric yet (they want to re-electricfy the line).
How is Penn Station interlocking controlled? Are there still manned towers at both ends, or is it some centralized NX system? Is it combined with Sunnyside?
There were originly 4 towers in Penn Station:
A: West Throat
KN: LIAR Yard
C: LIAR East River throat
JO: PRR East River throat
On the other side of the East River there are 4 towers:
F: Eastern mouth of East River tubes and entrance to sunnyside yard
HAROLD: LIAR/NYC Connecting RR junction
R: East Sunnyside Yard
Q: West Sunnyside Yard
In 1994 all 4 Penn Station towers, F interlocking and GATE and (just recently) PEHLAM BAY were put under control the the Penn Station Control Centre. The PSCC is loacted in the New York Amtrak CETC office just west of Penn Station. The PSCC is run on a UNIX machine (Telnet to CETC...just joking) because the LIAR commmissioned it and did not like the Amtrak Tandem computer system. The LIAR also required that a massive "hard-wired" board be installed in the basement of the CETC centre incase of massive comouter failure. However even w/ that the PSCC does not count as an interlocking tower. West of Penn Station the PSCC controls BERGEN, PORTAL and SWIFT interlockings and i would assume the new Secaucas Connection.
The 4 Penn Station towers are still in Penn Station, but I have had no time to snoop around and see if the interlocking machines are still in place.
From my records I belive that the last place where a terminal complex is controled by a traditional Interlocking Machine (I believe that K in DC is a modern machine, Chicago is now a control centre and PENN is now CTEC 5) is BROAD tower in Philly for SEPTA 30th St. and Suburban Station.
Thanks! I figured it would be you that would answer.
PS: Both R and Q towers in Sunnyside are still manned and under the control of the yardmaster. They both retain their US&S machines.
As you all know betwen 65 Street & 36 Street, the E & the F leave the G & R to their 3 2-track stops underneath Broadway. I think I saw somewhere that the express tunnels undernearth Northern Blvd between Broadway & 36 Street. Any truth to this?
Yes. Look at the track maps on this site (here's the small version of the one you want specifically: small Queens 1).
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Nooo... Jorge meant to ask was, are there express tracks under the G/R tracks when they seperate from the E/F tracks.
That's the...
running on...
or
's
correction.
Nooo... Jorge meant to ask was, are there express tracks under the G/R tracks when they seperate from the E/F tracks.
No, that's not what he meant to ask, but is it what you are asking? There are no express tracks with the local tracks used for the G and R in this area, only the tracks under Northern Boulevard used for the E and F.
Mark
Actually, what anan & Mark said. I wanted to know if the E & F tunnel underneath Northern Blvd. Thanx Anon, 5200, & Mark.
Whoops... I just re-read the question and got it. I see.
That's the...
running on...
or
's
own corrections.
Yes, the express tunnels are indeed under Northern Blvd, if you stand on the platform you can feel and hear the entire station shake when an express train goes by. The portal to the D3/4 tunnel is only a few hundred feet east.
That is not the only place where the Express takes a shortcut. Between 7th Avenue and Church Avenue in Brooklyn, the express tracks go under Prospect Park instead of curving over to 15th St. and Fort Hamilton Parkway (which should have been named Greenwood Avenue, since that's where the 24-hour-manned entrance is located.
Of course you mean at the Northern Blvd. station.
You can't feel any vibrations at 46th Street or Steinway Street.
Also, there's an emergency exit at the back of the Jamaica-bound platform at Northern Blvd., which leads to the D3/4 tracks.
For what it's worth, the Hagstrom 5 Borough atlas shows the express tracks as being roughly half a block south of Northern Blvd. I don't know if that is correct or not.
:)Andrew
It's all in the title of the post! The train will be pulled and pushed by the venerable FL9 locomotives which have been in service since 1957. I read in the last few weeks that Genesis replacements have been ordered by MNCRR & CDOT to replace these few remaining FL9's remaining in service, so there won't be too many more opportunities to have them pose for pictures at quality photo locations! I have been on many NYD-ERA fan trips and the trips get better every time. The trip leaves GCT at 8 AM for a round trip to Poughkeepsie, return to GCT for lunch, then a round trip to Wassaic on the Harlem line which opened on 7/9/00. Bring plenty of film, as fall foliage background to your pictures can be had at numerous photo stops throughout the day. When you consider the escalating price for diesel fuel, insurance, number of hours on the trip and number of miles covered the $60.00 ticket price is quite reasonable. Put a few dollars aside each payday and we can have a good representation of SubTalkers on the trip! Send a stamped SASE to the ERA P.O. Box 3001 Church St. Station NY 10008. See you there!
I hear from very reliable sources, that Chuck Schumer's wife is the new Commissioner of the NYC Dept of Transportation.
Any idea what her qualifications might be?
Her qualifications consist of the following- she screwed up one NYC Agency already- DCAS
Her second qualification, is that all the incompetent and corrupt folks placed in positions of power at CDOT by Wilbur Chapman, the worst Commissioner in the history of CDOT, have struck a deal with her to keep them in their current jobs.
Her third qualification, is that her husband, the Senator from New York, wants the extra income from the taxpayers of nearly $200,000, on the vague promise he will help the Mayor run for Governor. If the Mayor trusts this guy, he needs to have his head examined.
With all the problems CDOT has, the last thing they need now is an influx of Russian Mafia.
...he will help the Mayor run for Governor.
That would be a great job for him. Giuliani does not belong in a legislature.
GOVERNOR GIULIANI IN 2002!
Her qualifications consist of the following- she screwed up one NYC Agency already- DCAS
But if she's successful in getting more federal $$$ for NYC transportation improvements ...
[But if she's successful in getting more federal $$$ for NYC transportation improvements ...]
...and with her husband and their friend Hillary in the Senate...
But if she's successful in getting more federal $$$ for NYC transportation improvements ...
...and with her husband and their friend Hillary in the Senate...
Senator Hillary (how I shudder at the thought!) won't get any more transit funding for NYC. Oh, she'll get plenty of federal money, that's for sure ... money for welfare, for indigient medical care, for harebrained it-takes-a-village social services, and so on.
Sounds worthwhile to me.
Excellent point Peter!
Peter, you with the exception of funding welfare, you make it sound like funding the other social service issues is a bad idea?
Well, Mayor Rudy cut funding to social services and look at the amount of nutzoids we now have back on the streets of NYC! Making the subways dangerous as well!
Doug aka BMTman
Hopefully that will bid well for your efforts, Bob.
Good luck!
Doug aka BMTman
The following items are currently being offered on eBay;
the item number is followed by a brief description:
427404210-New York Susquehanna & Western 1949 Timetable;
427408296-New York Ontario and Western 1945 Timetable;
427411398-Erie Railroad 1945 Timetable;
427713572-Silver Leaf Rapid Transit BMT Standard Subway Car Brochure;
427718580-Silver Leaf Rapid Transit Design Book No. 2;
427722291-Silver Leaf Rapid Transit Design Book No. 3;
427738609-Book “Subway to the World’s Fair 1939-1940” by Kramer;
427744779-Philadelphia Transportation Co. 1964 35th Anniversary Annual Report;
426373704-PATCO Lindenwold June 1969 Timetable;
426377287-PATCO Lindenwold January 1969 Timetable;
424650371-PCC Book, 390 All Color Photos including Brooklyn, Newark and Philadelphia;
428472206-Philadelphia Rapid Transit 1907 Annual Report;
426448796-Philadelphia Rapid Transit Original 1916 Guide;
427413879-New York Yankees and Brooklyn Dodgers 1943 Doubleheader Ticket;
427415791-Book “North New Jersey Rapid Transit” by Quinby;
427446510-Hudson and Manhattan and Gimbels Brochure;
427473034-Timetable BMT Fulton Street Line, Lefferts Avenue Queens pre-IND;
427476464-Timetable Hudson and Manhattan Tubes 1955;
427797772-New Haven Railroad Motorman’s Operating Manual for Electric Locos Circa 1915; original, not a reproduction;
427968957-Timetable BMT Myrtle Avenue Line, Bridge Street 1956.
Silver Leaf Booklet #2 is especially hard to find. I don't have one, and it's the first time I've seen it on eBay. It completely sold out (1,000 press run) in just a few months and quite a few people who ordered it got a copy of Booklet #3 instead, with a request to send an extra 25 cents if they liked it. Most did.
SOURCE: Official Brochure issued by NYCT
they are renovating 7 stations on this line:
Chauncey, Halsey, gates, Kosciusko, Flushing, Lorimer and Hewes.
Work will begin with platform closing on the Queens Boudn side in Mid September for "about three months" at:
Cahuncey, Gates, and Lorimer with the Manhattan side remainign open until the Queens side reopens(and then they'll close the Manhattan side).
Work will include:
1- "Redesign the area around the station booth for better access to and from trains."
2- Build new stairs between the street and the platform.
3- Install new canopies over the stairs and platforms.[And new windscreens.]
4- Repair or replace the mezzanine and platform floors where necessary.
5- Install new vandal-resistant fluorescent lighting on the stairs and in the station-booth area.
6- Install a new ,high-quality public address system.[This is the PACIS with fiber lines and visual displays on the platform that will eventually show the time until the next traiN ARRIVES.]
7- build 3 elevators at Flushing.[This station is near Woodhull Hospital and is not considered a "key ADA station".]
items in brackets are added by me.
The other four stations (Halsey, Kosciusko, Flushing, and Hewes will be done in 2001.)
I'll post more info when I get the info. I worked at Chauncey yesterday and preliminary work is already underway there and at the stations between Myrtle and Eastern Parkway.
What will happen when the 60-foot R42 "J/Z" train cars have to be retired? I understand that the newer, 75-ft. cars will not fit on that line.
Given the large outlays you mentioned however, I guess the speculation I once heard that they would use that as an excuse to discontinue the line isn't true. Does anyone know something about this?
Thanks.
The R-143 cars that will be added to the BMT-Eastern Division (J,Z,M, & L)are supposed to be 60 feet long. Most will be initially assigned to the L, freeing up more 60-foot cars for the J, M, & Z. It looks as though the MTA is going back to 60 feet cars as a standard for new B-Division rolling stock.
[It looks as though the MTA is going back to 60 feet cars as a standard for new B-Division rolling stock. ]
I think this makes sense. As was mentioned in previous threads, the 60-footers have more doors than the 75 ft. cars, which decreases dwell-times.
[the 60-footers have more doors than the 75 ft. cars, which decreases dwell-times. ]
What I mean is, a 10 car train of 60 ft. cars has more doors than an 8 car train of 75 foot cars, as both 60 ft. cars & 75 ft. cars have 4 sets of doors per side. 8X4=32 doors vs. 10X4=40 doors.
Yes, but the Eastern Division is still going to run eight-car trains, of 60-foot cars!
I think that the other B division lines will get 75-footers once the R32s retire.
wayne
Hello out there from TV Land!
Was told by old time informed source that even the 67' ABs had tight clearances at both the curves at Cypress Hills and at Essex Street just off the bridge. In fact, this source told me that BMT men knew the Southern from Eastern Division ABs apart from end rivets missing on the front ends of the cars! It seems that the curves at Essex were so tight that at higher speeds the sway of the cars resulted in inbound and outbound trains "rubbing" each other at the end bulkheads. I guess, once the BMT had the cars in service, there was nothing to do, short of expensive realignment, but to limit their speed around this curve. Of course, this problem is eliminated with the assignment of 60' cars to the Eastern Division.
We've got: Hot Lunch!
There are almost 600 R32 cars, which will not be retired for at least 15 years, which means there will be plenty of 60' cars for a long time.
15 years is NOT a long time, given the lenghth of time trains have been running on these lines.
Elias
by 2015, enough new 6' cars will exist to equip the J/M and Z lines.
>>>by 2015, enough new 6' cars will exist to equip the J/M and Z lines.<<<
Oh boy 100 car trains...I can't wait. 8-)
Peace,
ANDEE
by 2015, enough new 6' cars will exist to equip the J/M/L and Z lines.
by 2015, enough new 60' cars will exist to equip the J/M/L and Z lines.
The NYCT web site says the closure will start 9-11-00 at 5am and run until 12-18-00 at 5am. (the Queens bound trains will bypass Chauncey, Gates, Lorimer.)According to the web site, J/Z will make their normal scheduled stops so be guided accordingly. When I see the actual bulletin from Stations, I'll post further update(s) as needed.
Call these random thoughts brought on by the end of another summer. I'd say that I'm sorry for posting something utterly devoid of transit content, but given all these anti-Hillary posts (and I'm one of the most active Hillary haters) and similar OT stuff, I just don't see the need for mea culpas. At any rate ...
Our culture has established Spring as the season for renewal and rebirth. As the days get longer and the weather gets warmer, there is a feeling of hope in the air, a sense of possibility. In other words, the cares and burdens of Winter have been cast off, and the opportunities for change and improvement seem almost limitless. Of course, there are some T.S. Eliot-style dissenters, and all but the most illogical of us acknowledge that not every worry can be discarded or every opportunity seized, but by and large there's a general feeling that there's something special about Spring. It goes without saying that this goes way back, to our ancestors and their close relationship with nature. I certainly can't deny the fact that Spring means a lot in the natural world.
You might think I'm odd for saying this, but I look upon Autumn as the real season for change and opportunity. It's something not easy to put into words, but it's there. I consider the beginning of Autumn to offer many opportunities, a real chance at renewal. Don't ask me why this is so. It doesn't have anything to do with work cycles at my job, in fact my busy season begins in late Winter and runs through Spring. It could be from the fact that there's something just, well, vapid about summer, the way that summer's somehow a less serious or purposeful time. You know, Fun time is over, now it's down to business. Or maybe the importance of Autumn is tied in with the beginning of the new school year, and all the opportunity that presents - while I've been out of school for nearly 20 years, the experience left quite an impression on me (and everyone else, of course), and now I'm reliving it vicariously through the next generation. Or maybe it's just that I hate hot weather and welcome the cool air.
At any rate, on this the un-offical last day of Summer, let's celebrate the coming Autumn!
For those who haven't noticed, a picture of the R-16's is featured for September on Bill's NYCT Calendar. It was taken when the R-16's were not quite ten year's old, before graffiti had really taken hold. I make out the numbers on the last three cars to be 6381,6362 and 6447. Hopefully they were still well thought of by riders and passengers alike at that time.
I believe that the caption is incorrect in that their first revenue service was on the BMT Jamaica train.
Since they are featured on the transit calendar this month, let's try to think of some nice things to say about them for a change.
They had great original cushion seating before fiberglass!The railfan window or porthole was kind a tiny. If you got it you were primo!
avid
The red vinyl covered seats seemed really soft and comfortable after years of sitting on the wicker seats in the BU's and Standards.
I understand that the soft seats were replaced when the R-16's were still rather new.
September 23 will mark 33 years since my first R-16 ride - a one-stop hop over the Williamsburg Bridge. The 15 marking really threw me for a loop, since I had gotten used to seeing letters displayed above the storm doors.
Today marks two subway-related anniversaries in my life. It was 33 years ago today that I stood at a railfan window for the first time on either a CC or D train. A month or so later, I was a fixture at the railfan window. I also found out why people complained about the small roofline side signs on the R-10s. We needed to catch an A train at 59th St. to get to Port Authority, and as we got to the southbound platform, an A train was right there. However, I couldn't tell for sure because I didn't notice the roofline signs. It was only after the last car went by, when I looked up at the end route sign, that I saw the A sign. I remember my exact words: "What luck - THAT was an A train!"
And 20 years ago today, I visited New York for the last time before heading out west to Colorado. Among other things, I spotted a CC train of R-46s and an E train of R-10s, both at WTC. The CC train was at the thru station while the E was at the terminal.
Nice? They sure did have the best grafitti tags in tentire systems.
Seriously, these cars did fine when maintained. But that was almost never done.
SUPER STRUT and his friends painted a complete mural which covered the entire body of #6409. It was a masterpiece. But it wasn't the Best In Queens: that honor belonged to Flint I's alternating pastel and psychedelic outbursts on the sides of A/C Slant R40 #4412-4413. Too bad I never got a picture of that one.
wayne
Nice? They sure did have the best grafitti tags in the entire systems.
Seriously, these cars did fine when maintained. But that was almost never done.
The R16 had some of the neatest features - the round porthole windows, transverse seating, curved stanchions, axiflow fans, (later on) the slanted door motor pockets, the peeling white ceilings...and those fantastic multi-colored sign rolls. What I wouldn't give for one of THOSE beauties!
wayne
Come up to Kingston one day and you can help restore one!
There you go again ...
Seriously, you fence sitter have three locations real close where the regulars would be glad to show you how to get dirty.
Kingston has many good old subway cars that need some TLC, as does Shoreline at Branford and Mike Hanna is at Coney Island every Tuesday night ! Or see the Fall colors and lots of mass transit stuff at Seashore/Kennebunkport.
Mr t__:^)
It has become rather annoying to see so many off-topic posts (rants and otherwise) in SubTalk, taking up valuable space on my screen. This group is supposed to be about trains, rail transit, and related subjects - other things can be discussed in other places.
Therefore, although this might seem drastic, I must add to my "killfile" list anybody who starts an off-topic thread. For now, I'm not including responders; however....
It has become rather annoying to see so many off-topic posts (rants and otherwise) in SubTalk, taking up valuable space on my screen. This group is supposed to be about trains, rail transit, and related subjects - other things can be discussed in other places.
Therefore, although this might seem drastic, I must add to my "killfile" list anybody who starts an off-topic thread. For now, I'm not including responders; however....
You're just being silly. Many of the off-topic threads are interesting, at least in my opinion, and no one is holding a gun to your head and forcing you to read them.
Then by all means, let's have an 'on-topic thread. What do you think is the best radius track for Thomas the tank Engine?
09/05/2000
[Then by all means, let's have an 'on-topic thread. What do you think is the best radius track for Thomas the tank Engine?]
There's no reason to discuss this here, just call the Long Island Rail Road, they should have that imformation handy!
Bill "Newkirk"
And, while we're on the subject, is a dual mode steam-electric loco possible?
It would be difficult to extinguish the fire in the tunnel and restart it once outside again.
I'm only a periodic passenger on MNRR, and I have mostly ridden the New Haven Line. I had occasion to ride MNRR this Labor Day weekend on two occasions, once on the Harlem Line and once on the Hudson Line, both of which provided unusual experiences.
Saturday, early afternoon. Local Harlem train to Crestwood. It appears we had a novice engineer. Not that it had anything to do with it, but it was a woman. (I always thought it odd that communications between the conductor and the engineer are done via PA for all passengers to hear.) Anyway, she seemed to have trouble judging where to stop the train. The lady conductor had to intercom her to move up at almost every stop. This ended up delaying the train.
Monday, late morning. Local Hudson train to Irvington. Conductor (male this time) accidentally hits "battery reset," throwing us "into emergency" and bringing the train to a screeching halt just past the Harlem R. Bridge, knocking out lights and AC in all but the last 2 cars for the rest of the trip. This delay lasted only about 5 min., thank God. Of course, I was railfanning, so I was in the first car, and stuck with it despite the lack of comfort (it wasn't that bad anyway). The engineer opened the door after this and he and I had a nice chat. He turned out to be a veteran, around since the Conrail years. Found out that on the newer trains, M5s, you can reset from inside the cab. We were on an M1 or M3, I can't recall, and the reset is outside the car in these early models!!! Also found out the dual-mode locos run diesel all the way to the Park Ave. tunnel portal, not utilizing the 3rd rail shoe until then because that method does not provide as much power. Ended up not minding the slight delay because of the chat. As a matter of fact, he struck up the conversation with me, which I was grateful for, since I try not to "foam" to obnoxiously and mind my own business, usually.
I always thought it odd that communications between the conductor and the engineer are done via PA for all passengers to hear.
On the LIRR, in contrast, you'll frequent hear PA annoucements saying "go to Four," that being a radio channel for intra-crew private conversations. If the train comes to a sudden stop between stations, and you immediately hear "engineer/conductor go to Four," you'd better not be in any hurry to get anywhere.
At that point you turn up the volume on your scanner so that everyone in the car can hear what is really going on. BTW on my chacago trip I carried about my scanner and frequently stood in the rear vestablue and many of the passengers kept asking me if I worked for Amtrak.
See, isn't it nice to know that there are RR employees who are human, enjoy their work, don't hate the passengers and don't think railfans are nuts! As a "retired" veteran of 34 years east and west I always enjoyed helping passengers and/or railfns out. Of course I'm a railfan myself.
do railfans make better railroad workers?
Not the "foamer" type, but the railroad and transit industries are beginning to realize that an employee who is motivated by more than just a paycheck is a better one.
At BSM we just got a new member who is also an engineer for CSX. Among the items in his work bag is a camera, for taking those shots that non-employees can't get that make it into Trains Magazine.
The 19th and early 20th Century cars in our collection were set aside by the Superintendent of Rolling Stock and Shops of the United Railways and the Baltimore Transit Company, A.T.Clark. He used the power of his office to save cars by "hiding" them in Work service. Today, we would know him as a railfan, for he was interested in the cars for their value. For him, it was more than "just a job".
Some do and some don't. As another reply has stated, yes and managements are seeing value in it.
OTOH there are some who have the joy of working there but don't always have the capabilitiesof doing a good job even though they mean well.
As to the conductor calling or spotting for the operator, they do this a lot on the New Haven line.
First off were there bridge plates?
When they put down the bridge plates they leave on the right of way a marker for the train to stop BUT if the crew is using different cars then what the stop is marked for it can be a problem. I've also heard the operator call on the PA that the mark is missing and to line him up.
This is also the case without bridge plates. NH line crews are famous for choose what cars they are going to use. When I take the weekend 540am NH Local or even the 2nd train the 640 that is a bit more crowded the crew has different cars open. Since these two trains will be returning on an express from New Haven they are full train sets.
Last time up on the 540am train working from the back (GCT) to front they had the last two cars closed (which I hated since I was running late) then two cars open then a car closed than a car open then the rest closed. Because of this the normal car stop markers at some stations the would not platform the open cars. The conductor called the stops, he gave first buzz to cut power, 2nd to stop. I did not note the stations they did it but over the PA it was confirmed which stations the conductor would spot the train.
[I've also heard the operator call on the PA that the mark is missing and to line him up.]
I heard her say once that she was missing a mark. It seemed like the conductor was asking her to pull up 1 or 2 cars every stop.
[As to the conductor calling or spotting for the operator, they do this a lot on the New Haven line. First off were there bridge plates?]
If you would be kind enough to explain exactly what bridge plates are and how they assist in lining-up, I may be able to let you know if I saw any. I have seen signs saying "bridge plate" on NJT, and I always wondered what they were about. Thx.
KP
A "bridge plate" is a more or less portable/temporary object used to bridge a gap between a car door and a platform. Some of them are small and stored where they are handy in case of need, such as to get a wheel chair over a gap of a few inches. Until I read this thread, I didn't realize that the bridges used to reach the express track at a local station when the local track is OOS are also called bridge plates.
In that case, there were no bridge plates in use on the described trip. All stops were made on local tracks, as far as I can remember.
For starters he would be highly favorable in pushing for needed funding for subway and other rapid transit projects.
Secondly, he would use his weight (not that there's alot of it there) to pressure the MTA in ordering all future subway cars with 'retro-technology' (i.e., getting subway car contractors to build R-9s).
Sounds like a good write-in choice for me...;-)
Doug aka BMTman
I second the nomination ...
Ol' Froggy'd probably do at least as well as those clowns we have running the country now
Even a doo-doo head like you must know you are not eligable to vote in New york. If they still had literacy tests, you couldn't even vote for the mayor of Sesame Street.
well as for doo-doos i can write him in as president mr literacy test
& do you still watch the ""cookie monster"" on your favorite tv show
Sesamie Street ??or is your favorite miss pigs??
Aye.. another great thought.
south ferry for vice president a great ticket !!
with malice toward most and indifference toward the rest, let us strive on to finish the work we are in...
i am deeply touched by the almost unanimous show of support for my candidacy ( pigs, if elected, i will see to it that you will be imprisoned in a yellow school bus with the madman from "dirty harry" as your personal chaperone)
to ensure my election i will have to pander to the public... to wit, i promise to prohibit railfans from riding the subways from the hours of 5 am to 11 pm... from 11 pm to 5 am, they will be allowed only in the last car of each train, with darkened windows and padded walls...
LOL!!!
( pigs, if elected, i will see to it that you will be imprisoned in a yellow school bus with the madman from "dirty harry" as your personal chaperone)
I have seen the light! Today I actually saw a school bus that from the looks of things (I'm not sure if it was air conditioned though), that has none of the disadvantages of a school bus! It was a Varsity bus on Lexington in the upper 60s. The only problem I see are the double seats, that wouldn't work on a real school bus.
Hey Pigs, talking about school buses you might have actually liked the ones that occasionally picked us up in East Meadow in the early 60's. East Meadow's school buses were supplied then by Harran Transportation. (who now supply Atl. City buses) They had yellow rickety old stickshift schoolbuses. Harran Transp. also owned the Jerusalem Av Bus Company (which had routes in Nassau which are now part of MSBA-Long Island Bus) Jerusalem Bus Comp had old-style Ralph Kramdem style GM's (brown in color IIRC) Every once in a while our school bus would actually be one of those Jerusalem old style GM's, I guess when there was a shortage of working school buses. What a difference. The ride actually became fun and for elementary school students it seemed we were on a real city bus solo without our parents!!!!
We are all aware of the poor voter turnout. There are a variety of reasons involving voter disillusionment and poor canidates. However if you don't vote you don't do anybody any good. If you can't vote for a canadate you like or respect write one in. A vote for heypual is not a wasted vote. If enough people write in, canadates will see a whole pool of potential votes and they will start changing their act in order to get them. So I expect every subtalker to go out and vote and if they are sick of the status quo vote for Heypual. You have the power!
I will not vote for heypaul as I higly disagree with his anti-R142 and pro-antiquated garbage stand. I will not vote for anyone who wants to eliminate cars that are smooth and quiet, have clocks, clean and understandable announcements, bright lights and are air conditioned in favor of horrible deathtraps that make awful, loud noises, have no announcements of any kind, wicker seats and dim lights.
That's because you never rode on them!!!
right on officer jeffrey rosen see you this fall on"project redbird".
Well I did ride on the R1/9s. To me they were cattle cars or junk boxes, depending on my mood. The best thing that ever happened to them is that they were scrapped. I'm with Pigs on this one.
he was to young to ride a good old R-1/R-9 series !
[I will not vote for heypaul as I higly disagree with his anti-R142 and pro-antiquated garbage stand. I will not vote for anyone who wants to eliminate cars that are smooth and quiet, have clocks, clean and understandable announcements, bright lights and are air conditioned in favor of horrible deathtraps that make awful, loud noises, have no announcements of any kind, wicker seats and dim lights.]
Excuse me, but first of all the failure rate of R-9's wasn't anything close to the problems of the stainless steel "tin toys" of recent memory.
Secondly, you're probably the only SubTalker who prefers those hard, cold plastic seats to the comfortable wicker seats of yesteryear. Oh well....
Thirdly, what makes older trains "deathtraps" as I have quoted you here? I don't recall people dying in those older cars, do you?
Lastly, yes, older equipment had inferior intercom systems. But that is easy enough to retro-fit with new technology.
BTW, this thread I started was only in jest -- so don't take it so seriously.
Doug aka BMTman
Thirdly, what makes older trains "deathtraps" as I have quoted you here? I don't recall people dying in those older cars, do you?
I'll take that one back.
BTW, this thread I started was only in jest -- so don't take it so seriously.
That's quite obvious, but I wanted to make my feelings known about old vs. new equipment.
As for seats, I will admit that the R-142 seats are horribly uncomfortable. In this case, I would prefer sitting in a Redbird (even in an R-33S if it's the wintertime!).
>>> I wanted to make my feelings known about old vs. new equipment.
Once again, ageism creeps in! :-)
Tom
Now you want to make me a carpetbagger in reverse. How long would I have to "live" in New York State to vote there? If it were only to upset the apple cart it might be worth it. Big ed moves back to the Bronx! That would be the headline of the century [hasn't been a long century so far tho'!]
Great! R9's for the B division [ok...at least one order of D types, the AB's...maybe but not important, R9's were better ]NOW before I load my van: how about High V's and Low V's for the A Division; it isn't worth going back to settle for redbirds..the next generation can have them. Just think...many will disagree: but you'd have trains that wouldn't cost more than their production price to modify them to make them work. And you'd have reliable trains for 40-50 years with a moderate amount of maintenance.
Yes transit funding for:Please: new lines where needed. Who said they have to be subways? How about a 4 track second ave. el? To Hades with the NIFTY's (not in front of the terraces?} OK, with ballasted roadbed, steel lattice structures! MUDC cars reincarnated, wooden el cars that is.. Coop city, Riverdale to the Yonkers City line; 179-Hillside to the Nassau County line, outdoors please.
I usually don't believe in taking up so much space on being silly, but Doug's idea has been the best thought of all in the political insanity going on. Too bad it reflects real life election and isn't a joke.Guess you New York residents would be able to write him in!
hasn't been a long century so far tho'!
You don't call 99 years, 8 months and 4 days long?
I think that they went back and arbitrarily turned 1 BC into the year 0 so that centuries run from 0-99 (like a subway roster) instead of 1-100 (like a British locomotive roster).
You think, therefore you're wrong. We're now 99 years, 8 months and 5 days into the century.
Train Rosters now run in the 1-100 range.
Notice the R-68s 5001-5200 as opposed to 5000-5199.
On the NYCT all car classes with the exception of the R-68A begin with even numbers - odd car being one digit higher. LIRR and R-68A even cars are the higher number.
What about the R-142?
Great post, Ed. I think I'll save it for my archives ;-)
Doug aka BMTman
I'm honored! Now to get info on whether we are indeed in the 21st century. Seems there are differences of opinion. I was being humble in saying this so far has been a short century! I don't care, time just goes too fast.
Here's the Straight Scoop on Centuries:
Centuries always begin on January 1, XX01 at 12:00:00:01.
They always end at December 31, XX00 at 12:00:00
The Nineteenth Century began on January 1, 1801 and ended on December 31, 1900.
The Twentieth Century began on January 1,1901 and will end on December 31, 2000 at midnight.
The Twenty-first Century begins (along with the Third Millennium, which hasen't begun, despite the Media thinking otherwise) at 1 second after Midnight on January 1, 2001.
Centuries, BTW, get their designation by their ending year. (i.e, Nineteenth (1800's) or Twentieth (1900's)
The reason centuries are numbered as they are is the "fault" of the monk who devised the current calendar for whoever was Pope then in 562 AD. Being learned, he knew that "0" is the placeholder for no value (or nothing) and there could be No Year Zero, as all years exist and have a calendar value.
[The reason centuries are numbered as they are is the "fault" of the monk who devised the current calendar for whoever was Pope then in 562 AD. Being learned, he knew that "0" is the placeholder for no value (or nothing) and there could be No Year Zero, as all years exist and have a calendar value.]
Would that have been Theoloneus Monk?
;-)
Doug aka BMTman
[Would that have been Theoloneus Monk?]
I think it was his rapper cousin Felonius.
That's a GREAT one, Bob! ;-)
Being learned, he knew that "0" is the placeholder for no value (or nothing) and there could be No Year Zero, as all years exist and have a calendar value.
There was no concept of zero until the Arabs brought Hindu numbering to Europe.
Notice how there is no Roman numeral zero, or Greek, Hebrew or original Arabic for that matter.
I have been having problems getting through to this site and they may be on my end. So, I don't know if my response was ever received about some questions about Nevins Street and why it is laid out the way it is. Here is my "Five cent's worth":
Years ago, a retired IRT motorman told me that, when the station was built, it was hoped to connect the station with the (then) proposed northside tracks of the Manhattan Bridge. When the City asked for proposed routes under the Dual Contracts, the IRT proposed rebuilding the 3 Ave. El at its own expense to carry steel subway cars from the Bowery, over the northside tracks of the Manhattan Bridge to Flatbush Ave.in Brooklyn. Once there. the tracks would run with the Manhattan bound track over the Brooklyn-bound track. This track layout would serve two purposes:1- Bypass the proposed BRT station at DeKalb Ave (by running under the east side of Flatbush Ave.); and 2- connect the Brooklyn bound bridge track to Nevins St. station via the (never used) lower level. This proposal, made in 1911, was shelved by the City and both sets of Manhattan Bridge tracks were given to the BRT. If you check Cunnungham/Dehart's book, RAPID TRANSIT IN BROOKLYN, check the activities for the year, 1911. It seems to bear out my story, at least partially. ELKEEPER
Sunday, a ten year old boy was killed in texas when the SUV he was riding in flipped over. As you might anticipate, the cause of the accident was officially listed as 'tire failure'.
QUESTION #1Is there anyone in this country that has not heard that the Firestone tires on Fords & other SUVs may be dangerously defective?
QUESTION #2The tire maker, the auto maker and possibly will be held Civilly responsible (perhaps even criminally liable). What share of the blame should the parent hold for knowingly placing his/her child in a vehicle that was presumed to be unsafe?
What happens to the 7 million tires that are being recalled?
Do they get recycled? Do they become part of the pavement on the Crossbronx expressway? Do they become a bredding ground for mosquiotes or part of the greenhouse effect after burning in a dump?
Any suggestions?
avid
And this thread has to do with subways/rapid transit...how?
i will ask a rubber tire / transit question...
was & or did bad tires that caused the pars subway to flip on its
side ?? does anyone remember it happened last month??
At the risk of offending you, in the subject line it was stated that this was another off-topic posting.
Maybe not quite as off-topic as advertised. Civil liability issues do impact on transit systems, after all. Among the questions that both have in common is the allocation of blame between the parent and the other defendant.
(What share of the blame should the parent hold for knowingly placing his/her child in a vehicle that was presumed to be unsafe?)
It will take a year or more to replace all the tires, since everyone going for replacements has created a shortage. Perhaps the parent has tried to the tires replaced, and could not. There have allegedly been 100 or so deaths. It's bad, but it's not like every one of these tires is popping, and most people have no choice but to drive.
It's sort of like asking "what share of the blame should the parent hold for knowingly placing his/her child in a vehicle that was presumed to be unsafe?" for those parents taking their kids on a Redbird.
They did prosecute someone in Michigan for not turning off the passenger airbag in his truck. (equipped with a switch for the purpose) His truck struck a vehicle that had run a stop sign, the airbags deployed, and his infant son in a rear-facing child seat was killed.
-Hank
It should be known that as of yesterday, it is not certain that the tires were the cause of the rollover. Police said a tire was blown out, but further investigation has to be done before conclusions can be made.
CNN article
Huh? It will never happen to me!
Did the recall state that the tire/vehicle combination placed the occupants in imminent danger and should not be used? It did not. It minimized the possible danger to the vehicle's occupants. I fail to see how the driver can assume any negligence, so long as the manufacturers and the government authorities permit such vehicles to be operated.
There was another recent example of tire failure causing a catostrophic accident - the Concorde. The Concorde has been removed from service. Both the Explorer and the Concorde appear to go out of control as the result of a single tire failure. Why the difference in response?
In my original post, I took no position. I only asked the question. As long as you asked, however, here is the difference in my opinion. The Concord related failure occurred once. There have been hundreds of accidents attributed to the tire failures on SUVs. Ford and Firestone, in their respective recalls stated that there was a real possibility of catastrophic tire failure, especially if the tires were overloaded, improperly inflated or subject to high heat (explaining why 80% of the failures occurred in the south).
Firestone & Ford are replacing the tires. Albiet, not as fast as desirable but as fast as current production permits. My question as a parent and a grand-parent is knowing that there is this real potential for danger, would I as a responsible adult subject a child to that danger. If I do - could I or would I be negligent. My feeling is that if I had one of the subject vehicles with the suspect tires, in my heart I know that I would not let my grand-children ride in the vehicle. I don't know why any parent or grandparent would.
BTW, the Concord incident being a single incident after more than 24 years of service is statistically non-existant much like the flight 800 explosion. However, look at all the effort and information that has been put forth to make an enlightened choice as to what type of aircraft we fly in or don't. I personally would not fly in a Folker 60 when USAir flew them. Having said that, I don't find the situation between a common carrier where we may not have a choice of vehicle and our own vehicle completely analogous.
(Did the recall state that the tire/vehicle combination placed the occupants in imminent danger and should not be used? It did
not. It minimized the possible danger to the vehicle's occupants. I fail to see how the driver can assume any negligence, so long
as the manufacturers and the government authorities permit such vehicles to be operated.)
I'd say Firestone is 70 percent responsible, Ford 15 percent responsible(which had evidence of the problem and took no action), the federal government (which had evidence of the problem and took no action) 10 percent responsible, and the customer five percent responsible.
Bear in mind that I tend to be anti-plaintiff on the liability questions.
Is than a new IKEA store going up near the Sea Beach Line?
Yes it is
Uh oh...better not let Fred find out! [smirk]
Whereabouts?
I think i saw some construction between 8th Ave. and the tunnel to 4th Ave. It's on the Manhattan bound side(look up).
I think i saw some construction between 8th Ave. and the tunnel to 4th Ave. It's on the Manhattan bound side(look up).
Are you sure that's actually an IKEA? Their stores aren't really designed for urban locations. They require a great deal of land, and most buyers pick up their purchases in their vehicles (delivery costs $100).
Actually, IKEA's not my favorite store right now. We went to the one in Hicksville on Saturday to buy a computer desk. While some items can be picked up in the self-serve warehouse, others, including the desk, have to be requested at a service counter after you pay. The wait at the service counter - which came after a 20-minute wait at the registers - was 45 minutes to an hour! Fortuntely, I found out about the wait before we paid for the desk, and needless to say we didn't buy it.
Pretty good Swedish meat balls in the cafe, though.
(Are you sure that's actually an IKEA?)
If it is, it ain't legal, and wouldn't be going up without contorversy. So I think not. Moreover, I was in the area a while back photographing recent housing, and didn't see anything.
Was this a joke?
There is a large blue warehouse-type building with a yellow strip at 8th Ave and the Sea Beach. I see it every day on my drive home from work. Looks enough like an Ikea to me.
-Hank
The MTA's (Baltimore) North Avenue Light Rail Shop building, built in 1991, is Blue with Yellow stipes and Window framing.
We call it the IKEA store for LRV's.
Don't know what the architect was thinking and IKEA doesn't have the Blue & Yellow building as a trademark, so the state didn't hear from them.
Makes an interesting railfan conversation piece.
I'm not sure.
>>>Actually, IKEA's not my favorite store right now. We went to the one in Hicksville on Saturday to buy a
computer desk. While some items can be picked up in the self-serve warehouse, others, including the
desk, have to be requested at a service counter after you pay. The wait at the service counter - which
came after a 20-minute wait at the registers - was 45 minutes to an hour! Fortuntely, I found out about the
wait before we paid for the desk, and needless to say we didn't buy it.
Pretty good Swedish meat balls in the cafe, though. <<<
I've bought a good deal of IKEA stuff over the last few years including the desk that holds the computer on which I type this, and the bed I sleep on every night. My home IKEA was the one in Hicksville. I would take a bus out there from Flushing. But, I now boycott IKEA except for small stuff. Why?
They raised their already exorbitant delivery charge to a whopping $89. This will almost double the cost of some items for sale there. Now, when I want a desk or a shelf, I go to Gothic Cabinet, whose delivery charges are more in line with reality.
If IKEA wants a NYC clientele, they will have to accept the fact that not everyone in the city drives and lower delivery charges.
The cinnamon buns are better than the meatballs. Too much gristle.
www.forgotten-ny.com
I've bought a good deal of IKEA stuff over the last few years including the desk that holds the computer on which I type this, and the bed I sleep on every night. My home IKEA was the one in Hicksville. I would take a bus out there from Flushing. But, I now boycott IKEA except for small stuff. Why?
They raised their already exorbitant delivery charge to a whopping $89. This will almost double the cost of some items for sale there. Now, when I want a desk or a shelf, I go to Gothic Cabinet, whose delivery charges are more in line with reality.
If IKEA wants a NYC clientele, they will have to accept the fact that not everyone in the city drives and lower delivery charges.
It's not always possible to avoid delivery charges even if you have a car. We ended up buying a small sofa on our trip to the Hicksville store last Saturday. It's not a full-sized upholstered sofa, but just a pine wood frame with large cushions. Although the wooden parts were packed flat - a point which IKEA keeps emphasizing - the box still was large. We just barely fit it in the back of our Rodeo, and that was with the rear seats folded down (fortunately, the kids weren't along, otherwise it would've been a no-go). There's no way anyone could have fit the box in a regular automobile, and this was far from one of the largest articles sold there. You can buy roof racks, but they can be tricky to use. My point is that IKEA knows full well that many people require the delivery service, and charge accordingly.
IKEA's whole business model differs significantly from that of most furniture stores. As noted in the Times not long ago, furniture stores traditionally make very little if any money from the sale of furniture. They instead earn their profits from the interest charged on in-house financing. Furniture stores generally will give credit to all comers, regardless of creditworthiness, but charge high interest rates. These rates are high enough to allow the stores to do well financially despite having substantial default rates. IKEA, in contrast, does not see financing as a significant profit center. They do offer store credit, but from what I've heard their underwriting standards are similar to those for MasterCards or Visas. Most customers seem to pay by cash or regular credit card. Deprived of the interest revenues enjoyed by most furniture stores, IKEA naturally enough has to look for other auxiliary revenue sources. Delivery charges are exactly what they have in mind.
The cinnamon buns are better than the meatballs. Too much gristle.<.i>
Guess this is a point where we'll have to agree to disagree.
(If IKEA wants a NYC clientele, they will have to accept the fact that not everyone in the city drives and lower delivery charges.)
IKEA's whole model is passing on savings on shipping and assembly costs by having the customer do the work. If you need the store to do the work, you can do better elsewhere. I wouldn't go all the way out to Hicksville to buy something that will have to be delivered anyway. I did go out there to buy something that would fit on my car.
One option is to only shop there if you are buying lots of stuff at once (ie. furnishing an entire room), then rent a van.
IKEA's whole model is passing on savings on shipping and assembly costs by having the customer do the work. If you need the store to do the work, you can do better elsewhere.
Quite true. They also save money by operating on what's close to a self-service model. There are information booths, and some people assisting customers in the self-service warehouse, but by and large their staff-to-customer ratio is probably well below that of most retailers and especially most furniture stores.
Not surprisingly, the lack of staff has its advantages and disadvantages. I appreciate the lack of smarmy salespeople on the hunt for commissions. But the hour-long wait to pick up merchandise, not to mention the enormous lines at the (too few open) cash registers, shows the downside of a minimal staff.
One more thing comes to mind. Although IKEA's product selection seems enormous, in actual fact much of what they have consists of color and style variations on a surprisingly small number of basic models. Each of these models has a Swedish-sounding name*, yet another example of IKEA's look-at-where-we-come-from approach. Limiting the number of models surely saves money along the way.
One option is to only shop there if you are buying lots of stuff at once (ie. furnishing an entire room), then rent a van.
Indeed, I saw a few rental vans in the pick-up area.
* = Not all names are Swedish, however. One of the bookcase models is called "Billy," a moniker that scarcely conjurs up images of flaxen-haired youths frolicking under the Midnight Sun in Malmo or Goteborg.
I prefer Ikea elizabeth for the tax break and the view of Newark airport while my wife shops...
IKEA did have a funny commercial a couple of years ago in which they snazzed up a subway car (I forget which car). Would that the MTA had picked up on some of the decorating ideas...
www.forgotten-ny.com
IKEA's whole model is passing on savings on shipping and assembly costs by having the customer do the work. If you need the store to do the work, you can do better elsewhere.
Quite true. They also save money by operating on what's close to a self-service model. There are information booths, and some people assisting customers in the self-service warehouse, but by and large their staff-to-customer ratio is probably well below that of most retailers and especially most furniture stores.
Not surprisingly, the lack of staff has its advantages and disadvantages. I appreciate the lack of smarmy salespeople on the hunt for commissions. But the hour-long wait to pick up merchandise, not to mention the enormous lines at the (too few open) cash registers, shows the downside of a minimal staff.
One more thing comes to mind. Although IKEA's product selection seems enormous, in actual fact much of what they have consists of color and style variations on a surprisingly small number of basic models. Each of these models has a Swedish-sounding name*, yet another example of IKEA's look-at-where-we-come-from approach. Limiting the number of models surely saves money along the way.
One option is to only shop there if you are buying lots of stuff at once (ie. furnishing an entire room), then rent a van.
Indeed, I saw a few rental vans in the pick-up area.
* = Not all names are Swedish, however. One of the bookcase models is called "Billy," a moniker that scarcely conjurs up images of flaxen-haired youths frolicking under the Midnight Sun in Malmo or Goteborg.
I prefer Ikea elizabeth for the tax break and the view of Newark airport while my wife shops...
IKEA did have a funny commercial a couple of years ago in which they snazzed up a subway car (I forget which car). Would that the MTA had picked up on some of the decorating ideas...
www.forgotten-ny.com
I dredged up another issue that came up on my trip, namely CUS is hazzardous to your health. Those of us in the east coars have become accustomed to clean, quiet, efficient electric locomotives gliding in and out of our underground station complexes. Well CUS is still underground, but its 100% diesel. I was sitting at an outdoor eating place and I kept noticing grey exaust smoke wafting from vents in the street. I realized that they were vents to the station. After sneaking onto the platform area to get some pics I could braely breath. The air was just thick with diesel exaust. There is one "open" part of the station where the canopies have skylights and the exaust catchers open to the outside. At this time in the afternoon a shaft of sunlight was shining down through one of these creating a 45o plane of visable gray smoke all along the platform. I able able to get a picture of this phenominon. Needless to say this can't be good for one's health and the noise generated by the Metra diesels was deafening. Chichgo desperatly needs to embark upon an electrifacation project.
As an Aside its a shame that in at least 2 of the few remaining great stations (Chicago and DC) Amtrak is trying to give some sort of "Airport" feel with "gates" and "terminals" and some guy ckecking your "boarding pass" (ticket). Its a laugh. Most people take amtrak to get away from that kind of thing.
Most people take Amtrak to get to their destination.
Most people take Amtrak to get to their destination.
Well...if they think so.
If you really need to get somewhere you should fly. If don't want hassle and prefer comfort w/ actually arriving at your destination as a secondary goal take Amtrak. (NEC and some commuter routes excluded.)
[If you really need to get somewhere you should fly.]
If you've been reading the papers lately, it appears as though the number of destinations to which one can travel by train and arrive earlier than if one were to travel by plane is increasing. In other words, given the amount of time it takes to get to the airport, check in, and sit around while waiting for a flight which is most likely delayed, to get to some medium-distance destinations from New York City it may be faster by Amtrak door-to-door. Washington (you spend more time on the tarmac in the Delta or US Airways shuttle than you do in the air!), Albany, and Harrisburg come to mind.
You know I've actually seen in a Continental Airlines timetable, flights between Newark and PHILADELPHIA!!!
And better yet -
Newark and Atlantic City!
The ONLY purpose that I could possibly think of for these flights is that they serve as connections or feeder flights.
Other than that, you'd have to be completely out of your mind to fly from Newark to AC or Philly! I'm sorry, but you'd have to be crazy!
A co-worker just mentioned today that he once flew from Oakland to San Francisco.
I used to work for PSA (Pacific Southwest Airlines) which was a local airline within California (and then grew to the whole western USA before US Air bought them up). We used to have regular flights that went from San Diego to San Francisco, then Oakland. There weren't enough folks (in those days) to have separate flights from SAN to SFO and SAN to OAK, so one flight hit both northern cities, then returned to SAN -- a big "loop" so to speak. Air time from SFO to OAK was about four minutes though all the taxiing took about 20 more minutes!!! This was done with 727-100's and later with 727-200's. (Things got busier when the MD-80's arrived and separate flights were instituted.)
The competitor, Air California, had flights from Ontario to San Jose and then to Oakland. It was a grand total of six minutes in the air on that one....and about 20 taxiing too. This was done with 737-200's.
My sister works for United, and she mentioned working flights from Newport News to Norfolk, Virginia. Same thing -- about four minutes in the air, with a 737.
I once flew from LAX to Burbank, and it took almost an hour.
But it was during bad weather somewhere, and they just wanted to move the equipment around, or to collect PAX from another missed connection or something.
Naturally my bags went somewhere else, and so I had to wait at SeaTac for them to catch up.
Elias
And once in the late 1960's I flew on an Eastern Airlines flight from Miami to Ft. Lauderdale. The flight crew didn't even raise the gear or flaps.
I almost walked from Homestead to Fort Lauderdale when JFK was urging Americans to take 50 mile hikes for fitness, but plans got out of hand and the group decided to bag it.
They may not have raised the landing gear, but raising and lowering the flaps is very important to making the plane climb or descend, along with ailerons, etc.
United has two flights daily (each way) from Washington to Baltimore.
You know I've actually seen in a Continental Airlines timetable, flights between Newark and PHILADELPHIA!!! And better yet -
Newark and Atlantic City!
Newark to Atlantic City doesn't seem so odd. After all, it's about a two-hour drive, much longer if there's heavy traffic on the Garden State, and going by train requires an indirect routing through Philadelphia.
I quite agree with you about CUS.
Some nice electric locomtives would do Chicago well!
I quite agree also about AMTKs AirPort mentality waiting rooms, but got my ears pined back by others who liked it that way.
What would help AMTK is to emulate the airlines with real seat assignments out of the terminals at least, so that no one would need to push to the head of the line in order to get a window seat, or whatever.
Elias
Actually I had a big problem with seat assignments on my Chicago trip. On Amtrak 41 I got a nice trackside seat in the last car and there were some non-trackside seats open that I could switch to. On the Southwest Chief we were assigned a seat as we boarded and it was like a completely random seat. Unfortunitly mine was not trackside. The trail was only 1/2 full, but when I moved to trackside seat some ass hole attendant told me to sit in my assigned seat (like 3 rows away) or sit in the lounge. Although the lounge has a nice view it gets noisy, crowded and dosen't offer the same down track visibility as a trackside coach seat does. I tried to sit down about 3 hours later but I got busted again. She said some bull about people getting on later, but when I got off in Topeaka the seats were still empty. We also got assigned seats on the way back, but this time the lounge stayed pretty much empty and I was able to use my father to "reserve" a lineside seat while I sat trackside and so jumped back and 4th when necessary. Seating should be on a first come first shove basis and open seats should be fair game for a temporary sit.
Yes, by seat assignments, I meant that you would specify a Window or an Isle seat when you made your reservation. And your ticket would have your car and seat number on it. Given the complexity of AMTK, this would work best out of the terminal stations only. But, then that is where the problems are.
I remember a family getting on somewhere in the middle of PA, perhaps Pittsburg, and telling the car attendent that they had reserved seats. He said "Yup..... here is one, anothere is over there, and these two are....." Not a good thing, and of course assignments only at the terminals would not have helped these people at all. But one thing at a time. If we can get it started at the terminals, then eventually they will be able to make logical assignments for the whole run.
Your trainman was trying to keep blocks of seats open for a family or small group, but perhaps he should have said "I am keeping these blocks together incase a family needs to sit together. You can stay there for now, but if I need the seats, then you will have to move back to your assigned seat."
Other AMTK trains that I rode on had signs over blocks of seats stating that they were reserved for groups travelling together. Of course if the manifests would show how many such groups there will be where they get on and so on, then he could try to reserve the right number of blocks.
But all of this is so much hot air. The airlines can assign seats to each passenger on each leg of the trip, then the computer software exists, and there is no reason why AMTK cannot make use of it. Sure more people ride on a train than on a plane, and sure the train has much more turnover, but this is largely imaginary, since airlines handle more passengers in a day, and have more planes than AMTK has cars, and they also travel to more destinations. So I think that it is about time AMTK got off of its butt, and started giving people the kind of accomodations that they have come to expect in travel.
Elias
Odd thing about the family blocks. We sat in seats 5 and 6. The family behind us had 8 9 10, but 8 was in our row. We had to switch w/ them (much to the chigrin on the attendant who tried, but failed, to think up a way to stop us from moving about) so that their family could sit together.
Two thoughts, one you are correct about the air in CUS/ As a short term(don't eben think about the cost of electirication of all of the routes into CUS even if only from the city limits)
Two--nit picky as it is AND I always strive for a trackside window, you should describe the clearly lsame behaviour of the attendant and file with their guaranteed satisfaction folks because the "experience" id what they are claiming to market. LOL
I have always tried for a trackside window on all trains and planes, and have found myself waiting in that awful Chicago Crush Waiting Room and just getting more and more frustrated. Finally, I have decided, the heck with it, the Isle seat is better anyway. You get a good view out of both sides of the car, and at my age, it make it easier to get to the rest room in the middle of the night. : )
So now I can dwadle in the terminal until the last moment, and then walk down to the platform and get on the train, and not have to worry about where I get to sit. Remember, half the run is at night anyway.
You are right about the lounge cars, they are the worst seats on the train. Better that noisy people sit there than in the coaches. The seats are uncomfortable on purpose so that someone will not hog such a seat for the whole trip. I guess if I were designing a consist, I might make some coaches more ameniable to neat, quiet people.
Hey.... but I *did* that. My model railroad runs both reserved and unreserved coaches on all of its trains. : )
Elias
On Amtrak "Reserved" means you won't have to stand and the train can "sell out". When I take NE Direct home from New Haven the Prain Pulls into Penn, 80% of the people leave, then a whole new set fills the car to a crush load (still an Amtrak crush load has more legroom) with like 20 standees in the isle.
On my return trip in the lounge I found it more enjoyable. Albeli it was fairly crowded and my back started to hurt from sitting forward I offered a nice bi-directional view and it was easy to take pictures out of the window. In my return trip on Amtrak 40 the train was filled to capasity (no opposite seatline seat) and not to mention the coach windows were so dirty my camera wouldn't take pictures through them. I had to go to the cafe car. Luckly I was able to free up both Lineside and trackside seating from Johnstown to Altoona to take pictures of the varoius towers and the curve. At harrisburg I got out and manaully wiped my window down w/ paper towers. You should have seen the grime that came off. It was funny to have a coach w/ one window sparkleing clean. I then wrote WASH ME on the door window so that Amtrak would get the message.
BTW I believe that untill recently you could open the windows on the Amfleet I's and stick your head out to take pictures. Now most of the cars have little metal latches screwed into the frome. My crazy friend from Englande unscrewed them and opened it. When a conductor came by he flashed some lamo saftey card he got from his asst. train director job and the conductr left him alone.
Two thoughts, one you are correct about the air in CUS/ In the short term(don't even think about the cost of electirication of all of the routes into CUS even if only from the city limits) at the very least a serious vent system is long overdue. as to the noise--if EPA ever gets its act together...(remember this issue when you hear complaints about EPA being too strict--those diesels are "grandfathered kinda lke a 1970 Dodge Polara with a 440)
Two--nit picky as it is AND I always strive for a trackside window, you should describe the clearly lsame behaviour of the attendant and file with their guaranteed satisfaction folks because the "experience" id what they are claiming to market. LOL
>>> Amtrak is trying to give some sort of "Airport" feel with "gates" and "terminals" and some guy ckecking your "boarding pass" (ticket). It's a laugh <<<
Mike;
What's the problem with gates and terminals? And where do think the idea of those things in airports (and bus terminals) came from? Main line railroading is not a subway.
I remember traveling on the 20th Century Limited from Grand Central Terminal in the late 40s. When I got my ticket there was an assigned seat, and a choice between smoking and non-smoking cars. Most people had friends and family seeing them off at the station. Since you didn't want to miss your train, which left promptly at the advertized time, most people came early and those leaving and their well wishers would sit around in the waiting rooms until the departure gate was ammounced. Passengers were dressed in their Sunday best clothing. Train loading was announced at least ½ hour before departure, and passengers would say goodbye at the gates and proceed to the assigned car and find their seats. Nobody had wheels on their luggage at that time, and most had red caps bringing their luggage to the train. Because I was a minor traveling alone, my father was allowed to accompany me onto the platform and to be sure I was in my right seat. He also tipped the conductor and the porter to keep an eye on me and make sure I got off at the correct station the next morning.
Tom
Can I just tell you how jealous I am that you got to ride the 20th Century? Being a kid, you probably had no idea how significant the service level was. Your dad probably expected it. You can't find anything like that service level on any type of transportation today. BTW, did you ever ride the Broadway Limited? You probably remember Penn Station too, don't you! I know where I'd go if they ever invented a time-machine.
KP
I road the Broadway in 1994 b4 Amtrak phazed it out.
>>> You can't find anything like that service level on any type of transportation today <<<
Pete;
It was in the ‘70s that I last rode on them, so I do not know if they have deteriorated since then, but I was extremely impressed with the TEE in Europe. I rode on those trains in Italy, France, Germany and Spain. Each had its own national character, but all were fast, clean, comfortable, and both station and on board personnel were courteous and efficient.
The 20th Century Limited is the only American train that stands out in my mind. I enjoyed being able to go back to the club car to purchase a coke and sit there sipping it with all the adult passengers with their mixed drinks. My memory of Pittsburgh sticks with me also. It was late night when the train got there, but the area was lit with a red glow and flames and smoke from the area steel mills. I thought at the time that this must be what Hell looked like.
I do remember what Penn Station looked like because sometimes I took the LIRR to Flushing rather than the subway. Unfortunately it was in the evening when I went through the station, so the effect of the light pouring in during the daytime was lost.
Tom
old tom... your imagery of what pittsburgh was like at night in its hey-day is wonderful... i have a picture book of pittsburgh and there is a picture of the city during the daytime, when the sky was dark and the street lights were on due to all the smoke... are there any documentaries about those days in pittsburgh?... i would love to see some video footage of that city, especially of what you described at night...
in the last year or so, pbs had a documentary on the drought and dust storms that plaqued the midwest during the depression years... there was one scene when clouds of dust that were pitch black blew into a town that was absolutely awesome and frightening... it really seemed like the end had come...
from what i have heard but not seen, modern day mexico city is very much like old pittsburgh...
>>> there was one scene when clouds of dust that were pitch black blew into a town that was absolutely awesome and frightening <<<
Paul;
Although it was not a documentary, the 1976 film Bound for Glory had a great scene of an approaching dust storm. Even though some movie magic was used in the scene it is really impressive.
I did have the opportunity to see and experience a real sand storm. When flying into Cairo on a military version of a DC-6 we could could see a sand storm on the horizon through the windshield. It was a brown curtain reaching up into the sky on the other side of the city.
The following day the sandstorm hit the city. Visibility was cut to about 100 yards, but if I opened my eyes wide, I got sand in them and had to close them and force tears to wash out the sand. The only practical way to walk around outside was to squint my eyes to the smallest slit possible and hope my eyelashes kept the sand out. It was necessary to breathe through a handkerchief to prevent sand from going into my nose and mouth. I was away from my hotel when the sandstorm arrived, and it was difficult to return. By the time I got back, I had sand in my hair, down the back of my shirt and in my shoes. I did not venture out of the hotel again until the storm cleared the next day.
Tom
Commuters can put up with it precisely because, being commuters, they tend to pass through the station without having time to inhale. Amtrak passengers have it harder; even so, they're better off than under the pre-renovation version of CUS, as it existed from about 1972 until the present redaction was completed in the mid-1990s. At least now there's a fairly adequate Amtrak waiting area within striking distance of the gates.
The main waiting room is a magnificant Romanesque public space, but it doesn't see much pedestrian through traffic, since it's on the far side of the concourse from the Loop.
--
Alan Follett
Hercules, CA
The real problem with "gates" is that a whole train-load of people has to pass through a single door. This causes congestion and increases loading time significantly.
I am somewhat excited to go back to skool tomorrow. One reason being cause I miss everybody and its my senior year, meaning I am so close to being able to become a Motorman sometime soon! Also I am Very excited, because I have not gone Railfanning since the R142 on the 2 entered service. Tomorrow I wanna ride the R142 between 96 to Chambers. I heard that it can reach 60. Is this true? Even the Redbirds I saw reach 55 on that stretch.
From Pelham Bay Dave JR
My SR year was great last year since most of my friends where in my classes. The only pain was doing the graduation Project that was 5 Pages and a 15-Hour research paper. I Decided to make it fun by doing it on the career of a NYCT Conductor. I did lots of Interviews and researched old newspapers. Used some of the Bulletins as references and other stuff. Then I had to get up in front of the class of 32 other Students and 3 Teachers Two of those I invited. My dad even came to watch my 13-minute speech on Transit. When it was all over I got a 100 on it. Everyone enjoyed it. I went to School in the Poconos so this was new to a lot of people who never rode a Subway train. I graduated in June and now doing a lot of riding the rails right now.
I got my results on the Conductors exam and it looks real good for me right now.
PBD JR
60 is a bit unrealistic, IMHO, even on the 7th Ave. straightaway between 34th and 14th. OTOH, that A train I took from Howard Beach to Broad Channel in July of 1969 came mighty close.
When I rode the cable cars in San Francisco, I already knew how they work. There's a cable running under the street, and the car grabs the cable and it moves. Alright then, how do the switches work? I saw a worker get off the cable car and pull a lever to make the track switch, but how the the cable work? I have a feeling that all the switches are downhill, so the cable car justs rolls to the other track. Are all the swiches on downhill grades? Also, at the intersection between the California and Powell lines, these two line cross at 90 degrees. Where do the cables under the streets go? How can a cable car go across this intersection without interfering with the other cable it crosses?
I hope you understand what I just asked.
The switches, IIRC, are as you have guessed. Gravity (or muscle pwer, or the continued motion of the car) allow it go over the switch if neccesary. As for the intersection, my guess would be that the gripman releases the cable, and allows the car to roll through.
-Hank
Rob--
See the San Francisco Cable Car Museum Web site. It has many of the answers, as well as links to books and videos you can buy with much more information.
Your observations are largely correct. Gravity is essential to the use of cable car switches. The Gripman must let go of the rope, release the brakes, roll over the switch and engage the rope on the other side. The rope is then fished up into the grip at a TAKE ROPE sign through the use of a hooked iron and the grip begins to vibrate from the rope running through it. At places where a cable car must take a switch, a LET GO sign is painted on the pavement. When a switch is thrown one rail and the grip slot must be thrown together. Once the gripman has taken rope, there are the options of standing still with the rope running through the grip or gripping the rope to provide forward motion.
When two cable car lines cross, the line that was built to the intersection first has the "superior rope" and may proceed with its grip on the rope. The inferior line (Powell cars are inferior to California St. cars in San Francisco) must LET GO with enough speed to cross the other line, then come to a full stop at the TAKE ROPE sign on the other side of the crossing to bring the rope back up into the grip. The inferior line's rope goes under the other through the use of sheaves which drop it and raise it to grip position again. Any time a car does not roll far enough to reach the TAKE ROPE position, the crew gets out and literally pushes the car to it.
Besides at track switches, cable car lines switch to new ropes from time to time. The ropes run in multiple directions from a power house. New York's Broadway cable, for instance, had three ropes - one from Bowling Green to about 13th Street, another low speed rope around "Deadman's Curve" at Union Square, and a third rope north of Union Square. New York's Madison Avenue line, with its gentle hills and straight alignment, had the longest rope in the world at 43,700 feet! All switchbacks were on the hills.
On Powell St at Callifornia, there is a "hump" to give the Powell car momentum to cross. Generally they are protected by traffic lights (auto and rail), but sometimes they have to stop anyway because of some fool driver.
Another scenario which I've witnessed is the "Loose Rope" scenario. The car coasts to a stop, and the conductor feverishly cranks the hand brake in the rear, while blowing a whistle to warn cars that they are moving in reverse. On steep hills it can take a while to stop!
When the SF trolley fest was just starting, the Council Crest car was running with hand brakes _only_. We had just left 17th and Market and were heading downhill twoards Church, when this woman jaywalked in front of the car. The motorman, put every ounce of strength into slamming that handle around and the car stopped inched from the pedestrian, who never once looked up at the oncoming car. As the motorman leaned against the hand brake, panting, someone observed, "that hand brake cable must be stretched a mile long now!!"
I guess SF also has candidates for the Darwin Award.
Do they still use a steel wedge as an emergency brake? In the olden days, if the wedge was applied, they'd have to literally use a torch to get it out of the slot.
Yes, a wedge is the emergency brake. It was the last of all last resorts! Accidents were usually preferred. The use of the wedge frequently broke or badly damaged the cable, causing the entire line to stop for quite some time. Cars on the line running in full grip stopped quite abruptly. After the wedge was removed, they had to find both ends of the cable under the street, pull them together and put on a temporary splice. Lots of horses were involved in bringing the cable ends together in some situations. The rope was then run slowly until the temporary splice got to the powerhouse. There a very long splice was put in. While all this was happening, the system was "down" with the cable cars sitting dead in the middle of traffic for hours on end, sometimes for a day. Sounds like computer networks today, eh?
Theoretically, it wouldn't be as bad today, as each of the three lines has its own motor. One line could be down and the other two could still be running. Before the system was rebuilt, a single motor ran all of the cables.
Sounds like the motorman didn't have the slack pulled up in the brake linkage and the hand brake chain. If you don't do that, an emergency stop is almost an impossible mission. If the slack is pulled up, 2 1/2 turns of the brake handle is usually enough to stop quickly and smoothly.
What you reported is a sign of an improperly trained motorman operating a hand brake car.
Amen! You've got to have that cable at the operating end, thus requiring only a few turns to bring it to full braking.
I believe one of the track maps on this site has something about there being a 29th St. station on the new 63rd St connection between 21st St/Queensbridge and 36th St. Is this a fact? If there is such a station being built, will it connect to Queens Plaza and/or Queensboro Plaza?
I'm sort of hoping such a station could provide a needed connection between the two.
Andrew
No. It doesn't exist. The object of the 63st connection is to avoid the congestion at Queens Plaza.
-Hank
I don't mean a track connection. I mean a transfer point.
...but now that I look at the track map I see I must have been wrong. What I thought was a planned station stop appears to be an electrical station.
Uh, carry on.
:)Andrew
Such a station would be redundant, as it would be a mere 2 blocks east of the Astoria el.
Who's resposible for making 'Autumn in New York' at Shoreline on Yom Kippur?
-Hank
I'll bet the person who set this up in the schedule didn't even realize it. It's usually Columbus Day Weekend, and it just so happens, this year Yom Kippur falls out on Columbus Day.
--Mark
Must have been a Goyim (that's a Non-Jew for those who aren't).
But I agree with Mark, the fact that it falls on the Columbus Day holiday may have caused some confusion.
Goyim would be multiple Non-jews. When referring to one, it would be a goy.
What do you mean by "at Shoreline"?
He means the Trolley Museum in East Haven, CT.
-Stef
Have I mixed up my museums again?
-Hank
First ... God Bless You.
Second, no you have the right Sea/Shore
Mr t__:^)
Click here to see what I mean.
I see it and nearly followed the West End Line to Coney Island.
Yes, I looked at the map.
Is the structure still standing or not.
This map was revised by photo recon, and the generally only add buildings (shown in purple) but do not take things away, unless it is obvious from the recon photo is gone. If the structure is still standing then the map was correct. Also just because the map was reprinted in '95 does not mean that the photo used for that printing was taken then.
Elias
The structure has been gone for years.
That structure be no more.
Click to see it in service and its demise.
The structure has been gone since the mid 80's, although the "Culver Shuttle Man" tried to take it, a few weeks ago.
Culver Shuttle Man?
Not only that....the topo map still shows the Myrtle Avenue el, razed in 1970. Scroll over and take a peek.
Notwithstanding, those topo maps are excellent and show detail that Hagstrom can't. I was surprised to know they were posted online!
www.forgotten-ny.com
Notwithstanding, those topo maps are excellent and show detail that Hagstrom can't. I was surprised to know they were posted online!
If you want to see what a topo map can be, see if you can find an Ordnance Survey map from Great Britain. They put the U.S. junk to shame.
I have come across a lightbulb in my stuff that I don't remember. I have no idea where it came from.
It is a standard base GE bulb with regular thread (not reverse), that reads "Train- Rough Service - 50W - 75V."
75V? It certainly couldn't be a subway bulb, could it?
I would think that the 75V means 75 volt. Do the railroads use a 75V electrical lighting system?
I have had the bulb for at least 30 years, maybe longer!
Perhaps it is for a series circuit of 8 bulbs? Would a Q or Lo-V have circuits like this?
72-78VDC is a common diesel locomotive voltage
If it has standard (right-hand) threads, and at that voltage, I'd guess it is a locomotive bulb. If it looks like a regular light bulb, my best guess is that it came from the number indicators on a diesel or electric -- or maybe engine room lights. Railroad locomotives have 74 volt electrical systems. There is a thread on this topic going on right now at a rail-oriented newsgroup:
misc.transport.rail-americas
You may have to check in DejaNews to find it, as the past few days the topic has disappeared.
The bulbs in the IND R-1/9 series cars had left-handed threads, but I think they were normal voltage. The wrong-way threading was supposed to foil light bulb thieves.
The bulbs in the IND R-1/9 series cars had left-handed threads, but I think they were normal voltage. The
wrong-way threading was supposed to foil light bulb thieves.
They have left-hand sockets, but it is to prevent exploding bulbs.
These cars have both 120V (5 in a string) bulbs for main lighting
and 32V bulbs for battery lights. The battery bulbs are left-handed
so they aren't accidentally put into the 120V sockets.
I believe the use of left-hand 120V sockets was earlier in the
century when lightbulbs were very costly.
The R1-9 had all 22 bulbs in series; 30 volts each. hey automatically shorted when burned out to continue the circuit thru. When too many were burned out and they were real bright as you may recall because each bulb got too much voltage, the whole car went dark.
The 5-in-a -series was on older stuff like els, LO V, Hi V , AB etc except when AB's were rebuilt they also got the R1-9 system.
Locomotives do have a 74 volt system, so the 75V bulb isn't for transit cars.
Yes, I'm sorry, the main lighting on the R1-9 cars is the 1930s-style
30V self-shorting bulbs. The marker and end sign lighting is
5 in a row (plus a ballast resistor to dim the bulbs and make
them last longer).
The only transit cars I'm aware of that used a 72-ish volt system
were the H&M cars, at least 503 in Branford's collection does.
How about the lights in the R-1/9 sign boxes? My sign box still has the lower sign lighting still intact and functional, and the sockets are wired in series. I had to use 75-watt bulbs to get the equivalent illumination I rememeber seeing on those cars.
The route sign uses two 120V bulbs in series (part of a string
of 4). The destination sign is a pair of 32V battery bulbs
in parallel.
IIRC it was still a 5-lamp circuit, a pattern which continued on right thru the R38. 2-lamps route, 2 lamps color markers, one lamp local OR express. As you say the destination sign was 2 -battery lights, which were to be extinguished when that car was on the rear and illuminated on the head end.
Also IIRC I was on H&M cars that had 125 Volt bulbs in series, they were kinder than NYCT which had 130V bulbs and burned dimmer but lasted longer. I'd guess the 72V power was for aux.lights, control etc???
Hint folks: beware of buying extended service bulbs; they last longer because they're made for a somewhat higher voltage but you get a lot less light and its yerllowish; not much of a bargain. That's why NYCT incandescent lighting on stations and the old trains was dim!
You must be referring to the bulkhead signs. I was curious about the side signs. Sorry if there was a misunderstanding. I use 25-watt bulbs for backlighting my bulkhead signs.
I regret to say that I can't recall what the side sign circuit
is on R1-9 circuits, but I can look it up for you.
Thanks. I'm pretty sure the bulbs for the lower sign are in series, possibly with other bulbs as well. There were two wires sticking out of the conduit opening when I bought the sign box, with just enough slack so that I was able to install a plug.
Here's the scoop: There are 4 bulbs in each side sign box, two
for the lower sign and two for the upper. Which one is illuminated
is determined by the reverse key position and the changeover
switch in each car. There are 2 sign boxes per car. The 4 lower
bulbs are in a series string off the 600V with an 800 ohm ballast
resistor (to compensate for the missing 5th bulb). Identical
circuit for the upper bulbs. The bulbs used are 130V, 36W street
railway bubls with normal thread. Suggestion for home use:
rewire the sockets to be in parallel, and use 25W refrigerator
light bulbs.
09/11/2000
[Suggestion for home use:
rewire the sockets to be in parallel, and use 25W refrigerator
light bulbs.]
Jeff, Those refrigerator bulbs you mentioned are 40 watts. I don 't recall any 25 watt types around.
Bill "Newkirk"
Bill, you've been spending too much time in the refrigerator!
I'm pretty sure 25 watt "appliance bulbs" exist as well.
Either one should be fine in Steve B's signbox.
To my knowledge regular bulbs are available in 25,40,60,75, 100 watts so no problem either way.
I'm pretty sure 25 watt "appliance bulbs" exist as well.
Among other wattages. My big Maytag (yes, they make refrigerators too) has a 25w in the refrigerator section and a 17.5w in the freezer.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Has the Maytag repair man ever paid you a visit?:-)
All too many times. When we purchased this house in December 1997 we replaced all of the appliances, installing a Jenn-Aire electric stove (made by Maytag), a Maytag refrigerator, dishwasher, and disposal unit, and a Maytag Neptune front-loading washer and dryer (in the kitchen too as we have only a wet stone cellar). The dishwasher had to have the door hinges replaced during the first six months (but since then has been trouble-free) and the refrigerator has been a pain in the you-know-where. The original door was warped, and it took the appliance store three tries to get one that wasn't; the lower freezer shelf is a very poor design and sags badly in the middle. And we've had several other minor problems with it, although it has never failed to cool. On the plus side, the refrigerator compartment is very well laid out, the stove (a smooth-top) with convention oven is the nicest we've ever owned, the dishwasher and disposal are great, and the washer and dryer are incredible. (We also have a Maytag top-loading washer in our North Carolina house that we purchased in 1987 that has been trouble-free as well.) So yes, we know our local Maytag man by name. Fortunately, everything has been covered under the warranty - even the replacement ice cube trays.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Thanks for the scoop. As I previously mentioned, I put a pair of 75-watt bulbs in the lower sign light fixtures, and the illumination approaches the degree of brightness I remember seeing on the R-1/9s. I have contemplated rewiring those fixtures in parallel, and may do so someday. The upper sign illumination is improvised - I've got one of those multitap strips running along the top of the box with two plug-in style lamp sockets. 15-watt bulbs provide more than enough illumination; in fact, they're a bit brighter than the 75-watt bulbs in the lower sign fixtures.
Eddie Sarkauskas explained to me that most of the upper sign light fixtures on the R-1/9s were fastened to the car side itself, and not the sign box. One exception was the sign box on display in the former roll sign shop at Shoreline before it was closed. He said he would look into finding upper fixture parts for my sign box (this was 20 years ago), and I gave him my address in Colorado, but I never heard from him. No big deal.
Thanks to all who responded to my questions in this thread. It hasn't jogged my memory any, but I was an avid camera toting railfan starting in the mid-1960's, spending many hours around and on diesels.
Incidentally, the bulb is apparently burned-out. I wired it up in series with a regular home lightbulb (I know this is a primative method), and could not even get a glow out of either bulb. The home lightbulb is good!
I guess that I have been saving a burned-out railroad lightbulb these many years.
I went railfanning after a date with my girlfriend. I rode with a Familiar face on the 7. From watching him operate the 7 from Vernon-blvd Jackson Avenue all the way to 74th to catch the E Train. When I got on the Train at Vernon blvd, I was walkin down to the 11th car mark, and this guy told me the 7 Train is only 10 cars now. I was like yeah, but I heard its 11 again. The Train came in proving me right as My good friend stop 9663 at the 11th marker.
I was able to get some pics of the De30 cabs and a Cab of a C-3 cab car. I looked at the controlls. But are the brakes applied in a similar manner of a Subway train say an R33? where the operator pulls the handle about 40lbs of air, then knocks of 10, pulls 15 then knocks 10 more off, then a full 80, then down to 20? Or does the Diesel have their own different braking?
There are several people who can give you a much better answer than I can (at least until I ride in the cab later this week). One major difference is that you have two brake controls. One is a trainline brake. The other applies only the brakes on the loco. Also, there is a 'lap' position on the brake valve (which is standard). There is also a 'hold' position which I can't recall seeing on other locos.
LAP? on a modern locomotive?
LAP is probably just the nuteral brake position. The brake handle is probably self-lapping and the engineer dosen't have to move it back to LAP to get a LAP effect.
On the way down from Croton on MN, I saw 4 trainsets of 5 cars each (R142s) at the Yonkers yard. All lights and electronic displays were on. The trains were signed 5,6 & 7.
By the way, the MN train wrong railed most of the way down.
--Peter
Unit numbers?
wayne
Those are R142As.
running on...
or
Decided to take things slow today. I took the bus to Flushing and then the 7 train to Willets Point.
It was busy there, since the U.S. Open was there. They had set up a temporary fare control with bus fareboxes.
I walked on over to the Unisphere. But it was a very interesting walk. Casey Stengal bus depot is on your left, and on your right, the Corona Yards. I saw lots of Redbirds from the walkway above, as well as a yellow track inspection car and that car EP015 that I saw on Queens BLVD awhile back.
The rail yard is quite nice. It may be smaller than Stilwell, but it has a very cozy feel to it. I also saw a train "park" in the yard.
It's amazing how close they can park those trains, without hitting them. Also passed over the LIRR station. There were four tracks, but only the north platforms were being used.
The park itself is beautiful. It's very clean, and who would know that you are right next to Flushing!
There was a cool breeze and sunny skies, and the Unisphere was beautiful. I never realized there was such a cool spray in the air from the fountains, I needed that on some hot days. I spent a few hours walking around the place.
It's one of the most beautiful public parks I've seen, much nicer (and easier to get to by transit) than Eisenhour park in Nassau.
I'll be back in the fall when the leaves start changing color. The reds and yellows will blend in nicely with the Redbirds!
Of course when I got back to Flushing it was much different, hotter and smellier. Who would know such a paradise could exist so close to a "dump" of a downtown!
Well I for one am glad that you had a pleasent day riding public transit. I also hope your Fall trip will be just as enjoyable.
I've had many very nice trips on public transit the past couple of years, e.g. to Long Beach from Main Street ... to Coney Island ... to Newark NJ, etc.
Mr t__:^)
Maybe I can squeeze in a trip out to Flushing Meadow Park this fall on a 7 and walk around (what do you think, Wayne?). We have a photo of my mother, my sister, and me by the Unisphere during our visit to the World's Fair on July 20, 1965. I've seen the Unisphere since then - from my plane window as we're getting ready to land at LGA - but haven't been to the park since that day. Of course, I've been to Shea several times to see the Mets.
Even though downtown Flushing is horrible, don't let it scare you. Flushing Meadows Corona Park is absolutely beautiful.
Perhaps there should be a Subtalk trip to the Corona Yards and Flushing Meadows Park. And actually this park borders two yards, IRT Corona and IND Queens BLVD, an especially interesting place for a railfan.
But that topo map I linked to the other day labels the Jamaica Yard with "IRT Yard!" No label for the Corona Yard.
[Who would know such a paradise could exist so close to a "dump" of a downtown!]
You haven't smelled the Flushing River at low tide. Sometimes its name is appropriate not because of its proximity to downtown, but because it looks (and smells) like it came from the back end of a toilet! (EEEEW! AND YOU CAN SMELL IT FROM INSIDE THE TRAIN! YUCK!)
I guess that's how Flushing got its name: they smelled the river and thought it was the back end of a toilet and called it "Flushing."
[It was busy there, since the U.S. Open was there. They had set up a temporary fare control with bus fareboxes.]
When they have that set up, Flushing-bound 7 trains act like they're on the middle track at Main Street. Open the set of doors facing the tennis, then open the set facing Shea.
BTW, I'm only kidding about the toilet jokes above.
Yeah, sometimes I take a step away from the front while crossing the Flushing river, because it smells like sewage.
Flushing is a very appropriate name for NYC's biggest toilet!
Also my favorite song for the Brighton express is "From a Moving Train" by America. Everytime I see the slants that song plays in my head.
Ok, it's time to vent some frustrations so here I go:
Things I hate:
1) R-68As: I would like to meet the numbskull who devised the braking system on these moving Budweiser cans. I know that most of you don't know what I'm talking about so I'll give you a small example. Imagine that when you drive your car, when you press the brake pedal, the brakes don't kick in until 3 seconds after you hit the pedal.Boy, I wouldn't wanna see your insurance bill! Well that's exactly how the R-68As(and the R-68s after linkage in 4 car sets) brake. And don't release the brakes too soon as you come up to the 10 car mark or you'll sail right out of the station cause you'll get that same delay for the brakes to apply again.Wheeeeeeeee!
2)THE PEOPLE WHO CREATE THE CREW RUNS: Do these people think we are made of iron? Geez. 3 round trips on the C, 4 trips on the E, 5 OPTO trips on the G on weekends, any trips on the R, and let's not forget the most famous of all; 5 TRIPS ON THE L. WHAT SADIST CAME UP WITH THIS @#$%&*!?
3)THE E TRAIN: There's 3 things that I hate about this line.
One- You're underground all day. Wow! It's such a beautiful fall day outside, about 75 degrees, picture postcard perfect! But you wouldn't know that if you're working the E. Heck, you don't even know if the sun is still out. Fresh air? Fuhgedaboudit. After being underground all day for 4 trips, you inhale so much steel dust that when you blow your nose, it comes out all black(not that I look that often).
Two-R-32 equipment. A chiropractor's dream. No back support on the seat so you're hunched over the controls all day, you have to put up a shoe slipper to support your feet and in the winter time when the cab heater is on, you give yourself a nice little burn on your right leg when you sit normally. It may sound trivial but if you had to do it, you would know what I mean.
Three-The homeless. Rather self explanatory. Can't make a run without hearing someone asking for change. And what's that scent? Violets perhaps? No, it's some homeless guy who hasn't seen a bar of soap since the Reagan administration and he's engulfing your car and there's no escape. Where's a can of Raid when you need one?
Things I love:
1)R-38s. God, I hope when I die that they will have these trains up in heaven. The trains stop on a dime and make change,they have very quiet cabs so that you don't go deaf while trying to make a trip, and they have the only A/C vents in the cabs that actually work. You want it on or off? Nooooo problem. And they're very comfortable to operate too. The motormen on the A love the R-38s. Picture this, you are a motorman at 207 St. and it's time to make your run downtown.............to Far Rockaway.............against the wall(local all the way baby).............. and there are two trains in the station, one a R-44 and one a R-38 and the dispatcher says that you can choose which one you want. There isn't a motorman who wouldn't hesitate to sell his conductor's soul for that R-38. Myself included (oh by the way, C/R's hate R-38s)
2)THE J TRAIN. I know, I know, everyone complains about the timers(signals) but dig this; you're outside all day so that you can crack your window and enjoy the warm days and some fresh air(doesn't apply during the winter), the passenger capacity is very light compared to most other lines,3 trips is a very decent work load, and the supervision is cool as a cucumber in the shade. Can't ask for more than that.
3)NOT BEING A CONDUCTOR ANYMORE. If they offered to make me the number one man on the seniority list to go back to c/r, I'd tell them to stick it. It's great not having to deal with kids who try to spit at you, throw bottles at you(not just kids are guilty of any of this),passengers who have a vendetta against the TA and see you as the TA pincushion, and lets not forget pointing at the station indicator board and wearing those doofy safety glasses (how c/r's are able to still get phone numbers from women while wearing something that makes them look like Urkel still boggles my mind.)
Thanks for listening but it's time to stop. My keyboard is starting to smoke.
Your point 2 on scheduling brings to mind a friend (avid railfan) who retired from Tastykake in February at age 59 after 40 years on the job and took a job as Conductor on CSX, which is still hiring. He had no trouble passing the tests, since his railfan interests had him informed on most of the stuff conductors need to know. He resigned in August after working 27 consecutive days with no respite in sight. He was tired.
Add to that [if CSX does like BNSF, MRL etc where I worked for years]spending your life on call, laying over more at your distant terminal than at home, going out [often from home] on 8 hours rest which means between washing up, eating, unwinding in front of the TV maybe, getting 5 hours sleep. As you said..can't get a day off, then working holidays [I don't mind working some, not Christmas], when you're raising a family missing all the stuff they want you to be there for; being told you'll go out at 7 AM or so and get called for midnight and have been up all day on the info the crew office gave you; or expecting a call for 5 or 6 PM and it falls down to midnight or 2-3 AM and you can't rest because you're expecting a call.Yes, the money in freight service is the best in railroading but you pay for it in blood. Do I miss the trains and running...yes. Do I miss the job itself..hell no. They can't prove to me that they don't know when the trains will run. And I don't mean only on the X-board, I mean when you're on a regular "turn". It stinks, and it's unsafe.
Regarding the R-32's - quite often I see someone operating these while standing up. From your post, I gather it's because of the poor seats.
But the top of the list has to be the T/O I saw the other evening who changed ends at the WTC on the E and opened the cab, only to find a rat in the cab!
Do you find the passengers to vary in friendliness depending on the line? I take the E frequently, and whenever I'm waiting for the E late at night (Union Turnpike, 71st, Roosevelt, or QP) I usually see an F come in first. When it pulls out, I wave to the C/R as the middle car goes by. I almost always get a wave back, and only once have I seen the C/R duck back as though afraid I was going to throw something. Of course, since I'm up at the 10 mark at stations that have a lot of employees, maybe they assume I'm one.
I've seen Redbird cabs on the Flushing line and those seats look really uncomfortable. I've seen alot of 7 T/O's stand.
What you see on those trains is basically what was on all trains from the R1-9 up to the R42in my days. And the AB's, original IRT, etc were not much different. There were no chairs per se that I remember until the R44 came out.
"There were no chairs per se that I remember until the R44 came out"
Do you remember the old Divco milk trucks?
Can you imagine standing to drive a truck?
Remember that transit equipment in NYC predates the automobile, and so no one ever *thought* of sitting. One stood to drive a trolley car, and one stood to drive a subway train. The bench always seemed to be an after thought. And when I was railfanning back in the 60s, I thought how nice that they had a little thing to sit down on once in a while.
Remember, on the LIRR, the cab was in the vestibule, and when it was not being used as a cab, it was being used as a enterance and exit for the train car. So you simply had to get that seat contraption out of there.
Elias
Much like loco's it was almost impossible to run a BMT AB type standing; I tried to once in a while because sitting too long was an annoyance; yes I remember the Divco trucks (in my case a friend on a Bond Bread route) but don't remember the driver having to stand, but I'm sure you're right.
Not only the LIRR had vestibule cabs [among other "big" railroads, so did the IRT and the Chi. North Shore, Milw, others yet .] The Old IRT cars had a fold up wood seat and on the North Shore the M/M brought his own stool. Oh well, nobody died from it. Likewise when running loco's, or R44/46 often I wished I could stand up fora while, my crummy back didn't like either position too long.
The drivers of the Freihoffers bread trucks in Philly and South Jersey also stood up, as did the motormen (much more recently) on the 160 series Strafford cars on the Red Arrow (and SEPTA) P&W unless they furnished their own stool.
Alfred Hitchcock's "Rear Window" was on last night (Fri, 9/8) on AMC. At the very beginning of the film, the camera pans up and down and back and forth throughout the courtyard, which is the focus of most of the movie. At one point, it pans to an alleyway, which leads to the street. In the long-shot, a white-uniformed milkman enters his truck, and just begins to pull away from the curb standing up! It's only a split-second before the milkman and truck are out-of-frame. It's too hard to tell, but this must be one of those "Divco" trucks you mention. I had only coincidentally read this thread yesterday.
BTW, I'm pretty sure the movie was filmed on a hollywood soundstage, and not actually in Greenwich Village.
>>> Do you remember the old Divco milk trucks?
Can you imagine standing to drive a truck? <<<
Although I do not recognize the name "Divco", back in the ‘50s when home delivery of milk and bread was common, many of the home delivery trucks were made for standup operation. Usually they had some kind of a seat that folded away so that the driver could sit if he was traveling any long distance, but when he was on his route traveling about 50-100 feet between stops it was much easier to board and remain standing for the for the minute it took to move the vehicle. These vehicles were replacements for horse drawn delivery vehicles which were even more efficient. With the horse drawn vehicles, the milkman would get six to twelve quarts of milk from his wagon in a carrying basket, and go from house to house delivering milk and picking up empty bottles. As he moved down the street, the horse would follow along, so when he had to return to the vehicle for more bottles, it had caught up with him and he did not have to backtrack to reach it.
Even today in areas where trash pickup is made by single operator trucks there is frequently a standup operating position on the right side of the cab in addition to the regular driving position, so the driver can move from trash can to trash can and quickly step off to load the truck.
Tom
Although I might be mistaken but I seem to remember those brown UPS trucks being driven standing up years ago.
[how c/r's are able to still get phone numbers from women while wearing something that makes them look like Urkel still boggles my mind.]
Its easy to see how they get numbers-Civil service is still a decent income with pension and child support is NOW 19%!!!
Boy, you nailed that one right on the head!!
Well I don't like R68's (Hippos) because they are hard to stop and slow to accelerate. I do love the E train though. So it's all underground. That's why they call it the subway. The R32's on the E are just fine, with a nice front window and pretty good ride. They are in alot better shape than Redbirds.
Everytime I ride the subway I get some steel dust in my nose. But there's nothing like the different smells of the tunnels getting the breeze in from the front window.
And the dust in the nose can be annoying, but when I ride diesel buses
the soot is much worse.
Also about the E, I've been seeing more R46's on there lately. Even though they don't have a front window, they are quiet and quick and great cars.
"Well I don't like R68's (Hippos) because they are hard to stop and slow to accelerate"
I suppose that if you listen to the people wo don't get to operate the R-68s, you'd believe this. However, why don't ask the motormen/train operators about the R-68s. You might get a totally different viewpoint. I speak to the people who operate the equipment every day and they perfer the R-68s to virtually every other contract of car except the R-46. Incidently, the R-46 and R-68 have the same brake system.
TRUST ME ON THIS. The R-68A's are the absolute worst as far as braking the train. The acceleration is actually very good but stopping is an absolute headache. The R-68's brakes were made much worse during the conversion to 4 car units but they are not quite as bad as the R-68A's. As far as the R-46's go, most motormen(in the south section) simply do not like the one controller operation. They would rather deal with the R-68 so that they can use both hands. Personally, I think operating the R-46 is a piece of cake but that's only my opinion.
The R-68A has always had the problem where if you ease off on the SAP as you stop, they'll run away from you as the dynamic fades. The R-68 has much better blending and this doesn't happen. We did switch from the NYAB electric self lapper to the WABCO self lapper on the R-68s during SMS (linking) and they do have more of an R-68A feel but they are still vastly superior to the R-68A. Personally, I perfer the single handle controller and I find the R-46 the easiest & most comfortable to operate. The worst part of the R-68 is the train operator seat - tres' uncomfortable.
Why is the braking ability of an R-68 an issue? It can't be too hard to stop from a maximum speed of five mph.
:-o
It's hard to get a Hippo started, and hard to get one to stop.
Avoid them if possible (I do)
Imagine that when you drive your car, when you press the brake pedal, the brakes don't kick in until 3 seconds after you hit the pedal
You don't have to imagine this.
Thomas, the school bus manufacturer, is sending out repair kits to school districts for buses manufactured between 1998 and about a month or so ago to correct problems with brakes ... they may not engage for 3 seconds or so when the brake pedal is pressed and certain conditions are met (and I do not know what they are). It was just on the news.
--Mark
Well at least Thomas is doing something about it unlike the TA with it's R-68A's. I've clenched my butt cheeks so many times (hoping the brakes would kick in) that my rear end is the only part of my body in shape. :)
When I was a conductor in l965-66 we had 4 on the E to 179, that was a damn good day's work, 4 GG's out of Continental..now that was a step from slavery (but guess I could have been a dishwasher or working in a factory); 2 1/2 on the RR (in my motorman days); but when you came up with 5 on the L that's cruelty. We did 4 and t/c but usually had no t/c.
Yes, I always liked the J because it was outdoors, and for a time had lots of R9's.
As for the R38's they must have improved the braking and somehow made them quieter because when I ran them the braking was awful and the cabs were noisy. Good to hear some comparisons with what I remember.
Hey BigE- Just thought I'd give you a little synopsis of our current crew runs in the B division (I can't speak for the IRT cause I haven't been there since '94). Look and compare 1966 to now:
A-2 trips(usually one each to Lefferts and Far Rock).
B-2 trips(one to 145 and one to Bed.Pk.Blvd.). Later PM crews also make a 3rd trip to Queensbridge.
C-2 trips and a lay-up/put-in or 3 trips with no lay-up/put-in.
D-2 trips.
E-3 or 4 trips.
F-2 trips.
G-3 trips normally(one job still does 4).Weekends it's one person operation with 5 trips from Court Sq.(ugh!).
H(Rock Pk.)-9,10 or 11 OPTO trips to Broad Channel spur depending on the job.
J-3 trips(some jobs on weekends do 4 to Chambers).
L-4 or 5 trips(senior jobs have 3 trips with a put-in AND layup).
M-Most jobs do 4 trips(1 to Bay Pkwy. and 3 to Chambers).
N-2 trips.
Q-3 trips but some senior jobs do 4 trips for the $$$.
R-2 trips.
S(Franklin Av)-21,22 or 23 OPTO trips depending on the job(BLOOD MONEY).
P.S. Too bad about that freight job. To me, some things just aren't worth the $$$.
Sound somewhat similar to my days, 1967-77 as amotorman except for a few lines..4 on the E or J too much, likewise 5 on the L. Gad when I worked Franklin we did 15 trips, Culver shuttle was 19. Either one bored me sick; now its anout 50% more On Franklin and OPTO. Yuk. So they finally put ina Broad Channel spur after all these years? I was wondering when all those deadhead miles to Howard Beach and back [ I should say LIGHT miles]instead of turning in a spur at Broad Channel would be eliminated.
They installed the Broad Channel spur less than a year ago and when they did, they increased the amount of trips from 6 to 10 on average. Too bad though, I enjoyed operating out to Howard Beach.
KYW News Radio (traffic and transit on the two's) reports that a freight train derailment at Elizabeth has 2 of 4 corridor tracks blocked, causing delays of 20 minutes to Amtrak and Transit trains. Delays are reportedly expected to last until late morning.
Well at least the trains can skip around the blockage from ELMORA to LANE or COUNTY to ELMORA. Godforbid if something happend between Trenton and MIDWAY.
Why is the area from Trenton to Midway different?
No crossovers between all the tracks.
-Hank
Its about 15 miles without a crossover. What were they thinking when they ripped them out?
(what were they thinking about?)
$$$$$$$
[Its about 15 miles without a crossover. What were they thinking when they ripped them out?]
150 mph service.
3 cars fully derailed, one partial. Buses for Elizabeth and Elizabeth North pax, delays for all other on the Corridor line.
For TV news pix the train was pulled out except for one box car and then the derailed cars but still tying up two tracks at 7am
From NJT's web site: as of 442 pm Eastbound (to NY) service has resumed but Westbound is still out. They have bus ervice from Newark to North Elizabeth and Elizabeth.
The story on Wednesday's freight train derailment in Elizabeth that delayed NJT and Amtrak service is in Thursday's Star-Ledger.
Yesterday I rode Amtrak Train 180 to NY and saw the freight derailment first-hand. Before I saw the derailment, I sensed that the train was running slowly. My train was 10 minutes arriving NY Penn Station.
When I rode Train 163 back to Maryland, the derailed cars were still there, but the two ex-Conrail locomotives and several cars were out of the scene.
Chaohwa
Bread Factory staying--rail link is key,
IT'S A WONDER
Peace,
ANDEE
From the story it looks like the rail link plus $1.3 million in corporate welfare is keeping the bread factory at its current location.
Tom
plus $1.3 million in corporate welfare is keeping the bread factory
If a corporation can save money by going elsewhere it will. It is a small price to pay to keep 1300+ good paying jobs in the area.
Remember, the plant is very old, probably rather ineffecient, and obviously needs upgrades (just like subway cars and stations do). If politicos make things hard for a corp, well it is easier to make bread in the South and truck it to NYC rather than make it in NYC and truck it to the South or wherever.
Out here in North Dakota, we have been pretty good at bagging computer type jobs that could have been done any place else in the world. But no it is our people who are doing the work.
A city needs to compete for jobs just like any other worker.
Elias
If you paid attention, you would see where the money is coming from. $300,000 grant from the district assemblyman, $600,000 grant and a $400,000 loan (interest free) from the Empire State Development Corporation. The total cost of the improvements is $5.9M, including the rail link. In the process, it keeps over 1300 people employed in one of New York City's last remaining manufacturing jobs, and the only commercial bakery. And if you read the article, it states quite clearlyt that they were going to consolidate the plant, but decided to expand its capacity instead. They came to realize the advantages of remaining in the city (with 7.5M potential customers) and an urban enterprise zone, which they had not taken advantage of in the past. The purpose of the UEZ is to get businesses to develop and remain in communities that are otherwise undesireable. This qualifies any business located in the area for special tax breaks and state loans and grants, and increases the economic health of the community, as well as keeps, in this case, 1300+ people off the welfare and unemployment lines. This is not corporate welfare, this is community improvement. How much would 1300+ people on welfare and unemployment for a year cost the state?
-Hank
I loathe corporate blackmail as much as anyone else, but this sounds like one of the few legitimate cases I've ever seen. Most corporate relocation threats are merely empty posturing. No one really believes that the NYSE is going to move to Jersey City, or that a few years ago Conde Nast was going to pull up its tents and head off to Indianapolis. NYC's major employers generally need to be in (or at least near) the city, generally because of specialized labor needs, required proximity to suppliers and customers, top management's lifestyle preferences, and so on. But Interstate Brands seems like an exception. It could very easily have run its baking operations in most areas, and probably did not feel the city's "pull" in the sense that a financial-services or publishing business would. About the only major limitation on its ability to move elsewhere is the availability of labor; NYC is (unfortunately) one of the very few places where there are few if any labor shortages.
So $1.3m of tax dollars saves 1500 low-tech jobs. Not a bad deal, it comes to $867 per job saved. The $5.9m is what Wonder Bread is going to spend on plant improvements according to the article. So Wonder Bread is spending $3933 per employee to keep the aging plant open. That doesn't sound like 'corporate welfare' to me. Utilizing the rail link also makes sense because it takes trucks off of our decrepit NYC highways. But the larger question is why can't the outer boroughs attract high-tech jobs, the jobs of the future. The Wonder Bread deal is great but baking bread is not exactly a 21st century career. Sooner or later it to will be automated, if it hasn't been already.
"But the larger question is why can't the outer boroughs attract
high-tech jobs, the jobs of the future."
It's a cost of labor and taxes issue.
Cost of labor is a much bigger issue in high-tech than it is in baking bread. A combination of low margins and short shelf-life mean that bread has to be baked locally. You can't spend either a lot of time or money in getting the bread where it needs to be. If you're baking for NYC, you just factor the higher labor costs into your price.
High-tech, despite Moore's Law, has a much longer shelf-life than bread. It also has very low shipping costs. So if you pay attention to labor costs, you can make more profit and sell more products at a lower price.
I can't speak for this particular project without knowing many more details, but I always cringe when I hear politicians talk about how they are "saving 1500 jobs". If the company had to move, it would move locally (within the region). Many of the 1500 would probably continue working for the new company at its new location. Others would find new employment at other companies. If one were to tally only the "jobs lost" over the past 20 years, you would expect NYC to just be one very long unemployment line.
Whether this is a case of corporate welfare, personal welfare, political pork or good government isn't really knowable from a short article in the Daily News.
"But the larger question is why can't the outer boroughs attract
high-tech jobs, the jobs of the future."
It's a cost of labor and taxes issue.
True, although the effect of varying state and local tax burdens on business-location decisions is usually overstated. I'd like to add one more thing - call it a "fear factor."
As has been noted here before, rent control limits new apartment construction in NYC even though new construction is exempt. Developers fear that the exemption may not last forever. In other words, a development built today might be able to charge whatever the market will bear, but there's always the chance that next year or five years from now a new administration will change the rules and make the development subject to rent control. While this may not be a big risk, a prudent developer - or lender - might very well be scared off when there are millions of dollars at stake.
Something related may be happening with businesses. NYC is reasonably welcoming toward business right now, at least in comparison with the recent past though not with the Sunbelt. Unfortunately, no one can be sure that this state of affairs will last. Should Mark Green or Al Sharpton become mayor, it's not beyond the realm of possibility that NYC will become hostile toward business. This hostility could take the form of crushingly high taxes (high enough to really count), increasingly stringent zoning or land-use restrictions, or, which I consider the most likely possibility, city-resident hiring quotas. If you have a business in the city, and get hit with these taxes or restrictions, your bottom line is likely to suffer. Even if you rent rather than own, you'd be faced with high relocation costs. So it's no surprise that businesses are choosing to locate elsewhere, in places where the business climate is not likely to turn hostile.
Excellent point. The pro-business Giuliani era is coming to a close. Who knows how the next administration will handle the issue of NYC economic development. There hasn't been much new office building construction either in the last few years, perhaps because of the glut created in the 1980s building boom.
re fears of an anti-business administration
Excellent point. The pro-business Giuliani era is coming to a close. Who knows how the next administration will handle the issue of NYC economic development.
Alan Hevasi probably is the most business-friendly of all the people who have a decent shot at being the next mayor. Not everyone will agree with all of his positions, but he does appear to be the rare sort of politician who makes decisions guided by logic rather than emotion. He's not the sort who'd rush into knee-jerk decisions that would impair the city's business climate. Peter Vallone, Fernando Ferrer and even Geraldo also probably know what side their bread's buttered on, so to speak, and hopefully wouldn't do anything too bad for business.
Mark Green's another story entirely. He epitomizes the most sickening sort of Upper West Side, head-in-the-clouds mentality that instinctively distrusts most private enterprise. His commitment to "social justice" might be seen as admirable, but he's either too stupid or too stubborn to realize that, cliche or not, a rising tide lift all (or almost all) boats.
Al Sharpton? Suffice to say that he's several dimensions beneath contempt.
There hasn't been much new office building construction either in the last few years, perhaps because of the glut created in the 1980s building boom.
More specifically, the lenders haven't yet gotten over their cases of cold feet, and will kibosh any deal unless there's been a substantial degree of preleasing.
A combination of low margins and short shelf-life mean that bread has to be baked locally. You can't spend either a lot of time or money in getting the bread where it needs to be.
That's not necessarily the case. When my son-in-law was driving for Valley Foods he would occasionally be asked to make the run to Salt Lake City for a triple of bread (48' trailer plus two 28' pups) to be delivered to either Las Vegas or Los Angeles. He hated that run despite the extra money it paid.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Andee, thanks for that GREAT news story!
It certainly looks like New York & Atlantic Railway will be picking up another client.
Doug aka BMTman
I knew you'd eat it up. 8^)
Peace,
ANDEE
If anyone is interested, I saw the R-142A at Brooklyn Bridge at 7:00 this morning.
Have a nice day !!
Glad to hear it. Hopefully the next time I go home, I'll be able to ride the R142A again. But what caused it to go out of service last time around?
Some door nonsense, I believe they had to rewire the door circuits. Pelham Bay Dave could probably elaborate best.
Peace,
ANDEE
Does the A train stop at World Trade Center, as well as the E? It doesn't specify that the A train stops there on the subway signs. Please help! Also, is there an easier way to get to Wall Street from Port Authority?
Chambers Street and World Trade Center on the A/C/E Lines can be considered. They are just on different platforms. Transfers can be made between the platforms. Only the E Train stops at World Trade Center while the A/C stop only at Chambers Street.
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it stops a Chambers St. which connects to WTC
From Port Authority to Wall Street requires walking. You can walk from 8th Ave to 7th Ave to get the 2 or 3 train, which stops at Wall Street, or you can take the A train to Broadway-Nassau and walk to Wall Street. (You could transfer to the 2 or 3 or the 4 or 5 at Broadway-Nassau, but it's hardly worth the effort.)
The 2 or 3 stops at Wall St from 7th? That would be better than the A or E going to W.T.C., right?
The Transit Authority Travel Infomation number is 718-330-1234.
Peace,
ANDEE
Which part of Wall Street is wanted? Wall and William (2,3), Wall and Nassau (J), Wall and Broadway (4,5), Rector and Church (N,R), or Rector and Greenwich(1)??? Or do you just mean the Wall Street Area, which is not that small, there being the many stops at South Ferry, Wall (Rector), Fulton, and Chambers...
Broadway Nassau would be better on the A/C. Less walking, remember Wall St ends at Broadway at the Old Church. Chambers WTC is too far of a walk
Depends on where you want to do do your walking, Times Sq. or the Financial District. The distances involved are not large in either case.
Someone please help me!
If you would poise a question someone may be able to help.
Peace,
ANDEE
The A,C, and E all stop NEAR the World Trade Center. None of the three trains goes south of Fulton Street in Manhattan. To get to the southern end of the Financial District, you have to change at Bway-Nassau from the A or C. If you just want to stroll, just take the A/C/E to Chambers/WTC. If you want the epicenter of the Fin. District, the 4 and 5 go to Wall St. and Broadway in front of Trinity Church. The NYSE and ASE are practically right there (just an alleyway away).
Your original question about the E vs. A and C is that the E stops at its own dead-end platform (called WTC), its northern edge just inches south of the A/C Chambers St. platform.
Has anyone ever seen any R32 serving the A line in revenue service in recent history (within the past 5 years)?
I've seen occasional R38's on the A, but almost never an R32 there (which is normally used on C and [to a lesser extent] E).
If the R32's ever served on the A, what years did the R32's run there?
Nick
R32 cars are running on the A line. Sometimes, they run in mixed consists with R38 cars.
What's an R32? What does that mean? Also, if A gets off at Chambers St, how far is that from Wall St? On Mapquest, it's like a mile hike.
Newtonyc, travel questions should be posted in another message or thread (message topic).
Most NYC Subway cars are named by their contract number (current test cars are R142), this site has extensive information this, please explore.
If you need answer to your travel questions right away you can call the Transit Authroity 24/7 at 718-330-1234.
What's an R32? What does that mean?
R-32 is the designation for a car style. The R-32's were introduced in the mid-1960's yet are still going strong - unless plans change radically, they're almost certain to spend more than 50 years in service. You can identify them by their corrugated sides, with the corrugations running all the way up to the roof. The cars with corrugations running only to the window level are the R-38's, a slightly younger style which unfortunately, due to the use of some non-stainless steel construction with resulting rust problems, aren't likely to be around as long.
R32
R38
Click on the contract number above each picture to see more pictures of these cars.
Wall Street is indeed quite a hike from the Chambers Street Station. Your best bet is to take the "A" train to Bway-Nassau and transfer to the "2", "3", "4" or "5" and take one of them to Wall St.
Yes, R-32s are being sporadically run on the A line but mostly in mixed consists with R-38s. However, there is one train running right now with a full 10 car R-32 consist on the A. There is no set schedule for this train so if you're looking to ride it, you will just have to wait for it and hope it doesn't take too long to show up. Also, it's only used when there aren't enough R-38s in good order for revenue service at 207th St.Yard.
I rode on an A train of R-32s once in 1968 or 1969. It was unsual to say the least. Too bad I had to get off at 42nd St. I would have loved to have stayed on board for a CPW express joyride.
More recently, any R-32s I've encountered on the A are almost always intermixed with R-38s. That's not too bad, since they look similar except for the fluting, but I still prefer solid trains.
Yes, the mixing of R40M and R42 cars on J/M/L and Z trains annoys me as well.
Well, that's not too bad, either, since they are also reasonably similar. What really drove me crazy was seeing R-32s and R-42s coupled together on D trains in 1969-70. Not to mention other smorgasbord trains of that period. I think the yard crews stopped sorting out the various cars after doing yard moves and just left them coupled together as they were.
I believe there is a picture of a N train that was made up of slant R40's, R27's and R38's. Now that's ridiculous.
The real topper was a 10-car train with five different car types coupled together.
Of course, mixed consists were commonplace on the IRT for years.
Today on the J I was on a solid consist of R-40Ms, pleasant surprise.
What would look cool, if the East New York yard ever wanted to try it, would be coupling two R-40 slants to two R-40Ms, getting two other sets to R-40Ms and running an eight-car train, with the slants at the front and back. Since the side stripe is just about the same on both, it would look like it natrually belonged that way, like the old Expo `67 rail cars.
If the switchmen ever found out that you were trying to make more work for them(it's already the busiest yard in the system), they'd come after you!
Besides, it'll never happen. Slant 40s must run with other slant 40s in revenue service with no exceptions by order of the General Supt.
I know, but it would be a great-looking train, especially if you were taking a full eight-car photo of the train while standing back from one of the el lines.
Maybe they can think about it for the "Farewell to the R-40" trip a few years down the line.
For a farewell trip it should not be a problem.
They probably didn't have that rule 30 years ago during the days of smorgasbord trains.
They DEFINITELY didn't have the rule back then.
I always wanted consists like this:
/--][--}{--][--\/--][--}{--][--\
Re-link all slants to R-40Ms. Since there are more slants than Ms, pairs of /--][--\ could be used for 10 car trains, and placed in the middle. I know, more work, but it would look cool and give the R-40 trains a cooler look. Perhaps the trains could be permanantly linked into 4 car sets (which I suspect the 143 will be like, 4 car sets with pairs left over to make 10 car trains).
Believe it or not, most R32s that appear on the "A" are in solid consists.
During the Williamsburg Bridge reconstruction project last year, there were quite a few R32s running on the "A". Most of these R32s were borrowed from the Jamaica Yard for the increase service needed on the "A" since the "J", "M", and "Z" could not get to Manhattan.
Once the project was finished, R32s appeared sporadically on the "A".
Today I saw a very very rare train on the A Line. It was an R38 to Far Rockaway-Mott Avenue. The best part was that the T/O kept his cab door closed the whole time.
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When I operate an R-38,32, etc., I'll be more than happy to keep the cab door closed for any of you. Only thing that I ask is that you bathe before leaving the house.
Say, zman179 -- you must have encountered one too many foamers in your travels, eh?
I could provide you with security for a nominal fee. :-)
Doug aka BMTman
For your information: the R-38 is NOT a rare site on the A.
Actually it depends on the time of day. During the rush hours you are likely to find a few trains of R-38s mixed in with the R-44/46 consists. That is quite normal and not something out of the ordinary.
Of course the C local is populated with R-32 and 38 trains exclusively.
Doug aka BMTman
There are R38 trains on the "A" at just about any time, and there are no R46's.
wayne
Sorry Wayne. The 44s and 46s look so much alike to me from the outside that I tend to lump them together.
Doug aka BMTman
Do you have PROFF? 8-)
I just couldn't resist, the atmosphere here lately has made me light headed
Peace,
ANDEE
I dunno, Andee; I've been over at the eBay trough lately so I am out of the loop. I check back here at night and I am scrupulously avoiding the little war going on. Anyway things like that don't bather me.
The last time I saw an R46 on the "A" was - well, it wasn't the "A", it was the Train To The Plane. I think one or two runaway Trains To The Plane may have deadheaded or masqueraded as "A" trains.
The R46 is definitely NOT a regular on the Fulton IND EXCEPT at Hoyt-Schermerhorn, where "G" trains go.
wayne
There was a very brief period in the early '80s where the Jamaica yard got all the R-10s, 38s, and 44s assigned to the A and CC lines, and the A and CC lines got the 46s from Jamaica. At that time, the R-10s were notoriously slow, falling apart, and dirty. The 38s were quick but noisy, and the 44s, while similar to the 46s in appearance, were slower, dirtier, and more unkempt, but still a cause for celebration when a set arrived, when compared to what else was available.
I recall it was due to there being some sort of change in power where the person who assigned equipment had it in for the Jamaica yard at that time. Can anybody confirm this?
The R-46s experienced widespread truck cracking problems in 1980 or thereabouts, and many were relegated to rush hour service on the CC in an effort to restrict their usage. The R-10s and other equipment were assigned to Jamaica Yard to compensate for this.
Not all of the R-10s experienced serious problems. Some of them could still motor, as Wayne can attest.
Oh yes, indeed! That "F" train (circa 1981), with R-10 #3080 the lead motor, went FLYING through Queens, probably reaching speeds in excess of 50MPH, in the express stretches. The Sutphin straightaway may have seen this train travelling at 55MPH.
And, yes, this feat was equalled by R-6-2 #1233, with Bull Gears pitched at "A" above high "C".
wayne
Which translates to good old A-440.:-)
And on this date in 1973, well......
I do know that you can thank Donald Manes for having all the R46's assigned to the Queens IND in the early 80's. Sorta his legacy, IMHO.
No, I didn't know this. Can you please shed some light on this? I would really like to know how this came to be. Thank you.
Manes used his considerable political clout to have all the R46's taken from the various lines they inhabited and concentrated on the Queens IND. The ones running on the CC, D and B lines were x-fered to Jamaica, causing a stir by riders of the lines affected. Remember, at this time it was policy to spread the newest cars around the system to make everyone happy (as was done with the R42's when new). Concentrating all new cars on one line had not been done in years.
Wait a minute! They did that in 1964 when they delivered almost all of the R36 cars to the #7 line (except for the R36ML cars).
wayne
Having the World's Fair going on at the time made the decision on the R-36s make more sense, and the mainline IRT was getting most of the R-33s at the same time, so the only thing riders on the 1 through 6 trains could complain about was the lack of picture windows, new TA logo and teal blue-and-white paint scheme.
And, of course, one of the best all-time decisions ever made was assigning the immortal R-10s to the A.
...>>>I do know that you can thank Donald Manes for having all the R46's assigned to the Queens IND in the early 80's. Sorta his legacy, IMHO.<<<...
Donald Manes? Isn't he the one who commited suicide with a butchers knife?
Peace,
ANDEE
(Donald Manes? Isn't he the one who commited suicide with a butchers knife? )
Yep, that's him. My wife's college roomate grew up in Queens, and went to work in borough hall right after college. She thought New York politicians were honest. A few months later, the Feds close in and Donald tries to kill himself, fails, and then succeeds. Welcome, unhappily, to the real world.
Donald tries to kill himself, fails, and then succeeds
If at first you don't succeed ...
What about the R16s on the Jamaica line in 1955?
With very few exceptions, the R-46s ALWAYS ran on the Queens Boulevard lines from their birth in January 1976(?). The 'N' got them when it was extended to Forest Hills weekdays to replace the 'EE' that September. The first time I saw one on the 'GG' was around February 1977 to replace the R-16s that went to ENY and the R-38s that went to the 'B'.
Since every QB line also runs in Manhattan and Brooklyn as well, no one can say that only Queens gets the new cars.
The R44s were shared by the 'A', 'D', 'E' and 'F' from their 1972 birth through about mid-1977. After that, they were rarely seen on Queens Boulevard, but continued to run on the 'D' through about 1981. Of course, they remain on the 'A' and Rockaway Park shuttle.
As many have stated, the 46s did limited duty on the rush-hour 'CC' when the cracking undercarriages necessitated fleet reassignments. The first time I rode the trains after coming home from college in summer 1980, I saw an R-10 on the 'E' across the platform from a 46 on the 'CC' at Canal Street. I felt compelled to ask a total stranger, "Did I MISS something?"
For a very brief time in fall 1988, the 'N', which was running to Astoria by then, had 46s. There was some kind of swap with the 'F', which had a few 68s. This caused endless confusion among daily riders.
I always feel Manes' legacy is the fact that it took Queens fifteen years longer than Manhattan to get cable.
This conflicts with what I've been told. I know the R46 ran on other lines than the Queens IND pre 1980. Manes DID have some effect on their complete transfer to Jamaica. I cant remember where, but it's documented. Unfortunatley, my greatests source of this type of information (my grandfather) passed away 14 years ago.
Of course - if you overlook the technicality that JFK is in Queens, the R-46 1200 series cars spent their entire youth off the Queens Blvd. lines.
Look. I know they're pretty good trains all in all. But they're practically all I ever see on Queens Blvd. (the R32s are what, Maybe 20% of the line) I'm hoping with the changes we're expecting next year there will be some variety. Maybe something with a rollsign.
Hmmm. Maybe some R40Ms, R42s, and some R68s for the locals.
:)Andrew
The R38s did not operate on the "A" nor the "CC" lines in 1980. They didn't arrive on the "A" until 1982 and the "CC" in 1983. Also, during this situation with the R46 during 1980, they operated on the "A" and "D" first. Later on that year most of the R46s were transfered to the "CC".
During this time, the bulk of the R38s were operating on the "AA" and the "B".
For the record: R-46s remained assigned to Jamaica Yard. The R-10s were assigned to Pitkin yard although a fair number of them were used in Queens Blvd service. They were maintained at pitkin shop. Most of the R-44s were stored out at Rockaway park on scrap trucks while the r-46s used the R-44 trucks to remain in service. By 1984-85 the R-46 fleet was riding on newly purchased Buckeye trucks and the r-44's had their wheels back.
Train Dude,
Just wondering, why did they use the R-44 trucks to keep the R-46s in service, when that caused the R-44s to be unusable? It seems that this would not cause any net increase in trains available for service; it seems to me that what you're doing is pretty much robbing Peter to pay Paul. Why not just keep the R-44s in place of the R-46?
As an aside, were R46s using R-44 trucks able to MU with other R-46s? With R-44s? Just wondering.
Thanks,
subfan
At the time that decision was made, the R-46 was a much newer car and perceived to be far more advanced. R-44s were already viewed as lemons. In addition, since R-44 and R-46 could not MU, if you took R-46s off the road for cracked trucks, they could not be replaced (one for one) by R-44s. However, by using the R-44 trucks, the larger fleet could be kept afloat.
As for the MU question, the MUing is done via low voltage. Traction motors are high (300VDC) voltage. Therefore the control circuits have no way of knowing nor do they care what traction motors they are turning. One note: the R-46 used GE control packages while the R-44 used Westighouse (except for the last 12 R-44s). The R-44 used westinghouse traction motors too. It was quite fortunate that the traction motor characteristics were so close that switching from GE to Westinghouse traction Motors was un-noticed in the car's performance.
I was always curious why they had so much trouble with those R46 Rockwell trucks [I believe] when Rockwell made most of the trucks for the almsot indestructible SD40 locomotives and they had no problems. Or is it just another matter of many instances of NYCT/LIRR...and sadly Amtrak getting so many lemons?
Recently (mid 1990s) NYCT experimened with fiberglass show beams. Without going into detail, the beams wold split and fall off under certain conditions. While not quite analogous, the situation with the rockwell trucks was very similar. they looked geat on paper. Sadly, in real life, due to the harsh conditions of the NYCT ROW, the rockwell trucks were overmatched.
Could it be that the IND's ties-in-concrete roadbed took its toll on the Rockwell trucks?
I don't know for sure. I do know thatit was not the case with the fiberglass shoe beams. They were done in due to truck flexing on the soft Brighton Line roadbed. Go figure
I've heard from other sources long ago that the same problems, cracking appeared on the R1-9 truck in the early days, likewise the R10 truck which became pretty much system standard until the R46 appeared. Same reason, tested on the BMT and then the concrete IND roadbed hammered them.OK guess we haven't proven that was the R46 problem.
The problems with the R10 truck seemed to have been corrected as they served under thousands of cars for many years. OTOH as much as I liked the R1-9 my car shop guru friend told me once that was the worst truck in the history of railroading [I'm sure there were worse]. Told me about 62 or so that the welding shop made all kinds of OT keeping them patched.
I heard the casting method used for the R-10 trucks was in its infancy at the time, and has since been refined to reduce, if not eliminate, casting flaws.
No it's not a rare site... not trains to Lefferts. But an R38 to Far Rockaway? In the past 3 years this is the second time I've ever seen an R38 headed to Far Rockaway. Or maybe I don't ride enough.
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You don't ride enough.
There are plenty of R38 A trans running on the Rockaway line. I usually let them pass in hope of getting to ride the superior R44's.
Agreed, agreed! I cannot stand those rolling garden sheds either 8-)
Peace,
ANDEE
Rolling garden sheds? Maybe we should ask Arthur "Two Sheds" Jackson for his take on this.:-)
I personally also wait for R-38s for the railfan view.
Why? One of the thrills of the system is getting the railfain window over Jamaica Bay.
To be honest, my idea of a railfan window is an R44/46 with foward facing window seats. I'm not into standing.
You definately do not ride it enough. I live in Far Rockaway, the R38s run right by my window 24/7. But I must admit, you do have to have patience. Sometimes there would be 4 to 5 R44s until an R38 appears. Your best time to catch them is during rush hours.
If you want to ride a train of R38s on the "A", now is the time to do it. For the last couple of days, the R38s have been providing half the service and in some cases, the bulk of the service. If you are interested, your best bet is to try today or Monday at the latest because there is no telling when the R44s will return to rule the "A" train.
My experience is that both "branches" of the A have an equal distribution of R44 and R38/32 cars running on them.
No, for the most part, especially during non rush hours, it tends to be difficult to catch an R38 on the "A. Sometimes you have to let 4 or 5 trains of R44s go before 1 train of R38s appear.
Now, considering that the Far Rockaway "A" for the most part runs every 16 - 20 minutes, that means you would possible have to wait 1 hour to an 1 hour and 40 minutes for an R38 to Far Rockaway (or Lefferts Blvd) sometimes.
Hmmmm, on friday I saw 3 pass thru the WTC consecutively. Two to Far Rock, one to Lefferts ...
Sir, remember, my original stated that as of RECENTLY (the last couple of days), the R38s have been providing half and sometimes the bulk of the service on the "A" train.
I was just making an observation which clashed with yours. I always see some R38 A trains to Rockaway during the PM rush.
What about the special rush hour thru trains to Rockaway Park? The only ones I've ever seen are 46s.
I meant to say every rush-hour thru 'A' special to Rockaway Park has been an R-44, NOT 46.
My mind is still on the cracked R-46 undercarriage thread. Please forgive me.
UNFORGIVEN. 40 LASHES WITH A WET NOODLE FOR YOU!!!
Thanks. Where'd the R44s go? Where'd the extra R38s come from?
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The TA just operates like this from time to time. The truth is, I havent figured out the method to their madness. If anybody has any ideas, please respond. Thank you.
this could very well be the thread spanning the largest amount of time but with the least messages ACTUALLY posted...
I think longest completely would have to go to "Brooklyn Subway Routes WITHOUT the Manhattan Bridge" if you include the later threads about the Tacoma Narrows and other things that spun off of it...
Actually, I think shuch threads appear on BusTalk. The so-called "active board," as of the time of this post, contains 5000 messages. The oldest dates back to 17 April 2000. The longest lasting fewest posted thread is called "HOT OFF THE PRESS !! BUS FESTIVAL 2000 NEWS"
It dates back to May 4, and has 2 messages. Incedentally, I posted one of them!
Aaah but that is Bustalk. Interesting...I take this to mean that Subtalk has much higher ridership than bustalk....
I don't think there's anything unusual about that. I've been on Far Rockaway A trains of R-38s before, although I had to let a few trains of R-44s go by first.
Unfortunately the waiting time for an A Train to Far Rockaway is two times as long because there are 2 spurs. I'll so some waiting next time. It'll be while.
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You do have to be patient if you decide to wait for a train of R-38s. I've had to let as many as four trains of R-44s go by. If I'm pressed for time, I have to bite the bullet and take whatever A train comes first. Once I was on my way to the Transit Museum and got there too early. Having some time to kill, I took an A (R-44s) out to Lefferts Blvd and back to Hoyt-Schermerhorn. That train was surprisingly nimble, getting up to 40 mph along Fulton St. at one point.
Yep, those are the R44's....the R38's can do better than that; I've seen them get to 47 along Fulton IND. A nice ride, especially with a railfan window. Another frisky beast was an R32 of the "A", led by ODD COUPLE car #3767 and her mate #3650; she had it up at a steady 45 for the ENY-Euclid GT's, which the T/O played like a fiddle.
wayne
Well....1998 thru present, for openers:
The following have been on the A during the past year and this is a constantly changing situation, as they swap back and forth in Pitkin-Yard with the C:
3404-05
3416-17
3484-85
3594-95 (R32GE)
3504-05
3606-07
3650-3767 (odd couple)
3704-05
3716-17
3880-81 (R32GE)
3892-93 (R32GE)
3894-95
3912-13
3936-37 (R32GE)
In fact, any R32 that lives in Pitkin-Yard could theoretically appear on the A as needs dictate. I have seen more cars than in the above list on the A; this list shows only the latest of my R32 census, and these were last seen on the A; quite a few not shown above have been since been seen on the C.
wayne
Was there any other time other than the 1968-1973 (and possibly 1979-80) period where the R32's ran on the Eastern Division lines (J/QJ, "original" K, L or M)?
I've seen photos on the R32 page from that period in time, which showed at least a small number of R32's running on the M and QJ.
Oh, how'd I wish to see these R32's back on my "native" M line (don't mind if they appeared on Chris R16's (Sorry Chris, not really a big fan of those "cursed" R16's) J/Z line or even the L line).
Nick
The R32GE's spent their summer in Fresh Pond Yard, I believe, as a work train because of their lack of A/C. BTW, does anyone know if they're back on the road yet?
Some R-32s laid up in ENY yard during middays prior to Chrystie St. when they ran on the TT. They continued up the Centre St. line and over the Williamsburg Bridge instead of reversing at Chambers St. or deadheading over the Manhattan Bridge.
The Nassau Street RR special did the exact same thing. Some even went to Metropolitian Ave.
The Nassau St. RR was a truncated RJ, when all was said and done.
I wouldn't be surprised if R-32s on the old TT laid up at Fresh Pond Yard as well as ENY. I saw one such train at ENY from the platform at Eastern Parkway-Bwy Junction on the Canarsie line in July of 1967. Then a train of BMT standards pulled in. I think everyone knows how I felt about them back then. Let's just leave it at that.
I saw an R32 on the J line once, in January 1989. It was pre-GOH, and it shocked me. Never seen a post GOH R32 anywhere on the eastern division. They were common sights on the TT line when new, and after Chrystie St, they ran on all the e.d. lines until the mid 70's.
An R32 in Eastern Division is a rare bird indeed. In fact, I have not seen even one there in revenue service in at least fourteen years.
The R32GE's sometimes hole up in Fresh-Pond or Canarsie Yards on their summer vacations (they have no A/C).
Back in the early 1970s, I saw a number of R32 on the "QJ". Later, I saw some and rode them on the "M". I have never, ever seen one on the Canarsie Line (the "LL"/"L") and never saw one on the "KK" when it ran. (I DID see a BMT Standard there before they retired, late in '68).
wayne
What are the car numbers for the GE R-32's?
Check out the R32 page in the illustrated subway car roster.
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I might be in NYC for a day trip from Boston this Saturday, so I do need the schedule for the R142/R142A (especially the R142A) since I will be going from Canal/Bklyn Bridge.
On another note, I did see the R142A southbound on Aug 19 at Canal St for the first time in revenue service, but I was on the uptown platform while the train was in the downtown platform. I ended up taking redbird #8575 instead.
Nick
Here ya' go,
R-142/142A INFORMATION
Peace,
ANDEE
Go to my site at http://members.aol.com/orentree/R142.htm.
When was the last time those cars ran in revenue service and on what lines? I will safely assume they were retired sometime before the R17/R21/R22's were retired.
Nick
R-12s withdrawn from service, 1981.
R-14s and R-15s withdrawn from service, December 1984.
-Stef
The R12's disappeared in 1981, the R14's and 15's in 1984, just before I got a chance to ride 'em. The R21/22's went in October 1987 and the R17 in February 1988, so luckily I got to ride them in their last days, mostly on the #3 line. Some R22's never saw their 30th birthdays. If the R32's had a similar lifespan, they'd have been scrapped 6 years ago.
(If the R32's had a similar lifespan, they'd have been scrapped 6 years ago.)
I think it is safe to assume that the R-32 will make at least 45 years before retirement.
-Mark
Yep. The MTA should've ordered 2,000 of em ...
My feelings exactly.
If I take the A train from P.A., I get off at Nassau St? This will take me to the Wall St area? I really appreciate all the help. I feel like an idiot, but I have a fear of getting lost in NY. Understandably.
Yes, the A train station at Broadway-Nassau is in the northern part of the Financial District. Wall St itself is about a 5 minute walk from this station.
Here are some comments to ease your fear. You CANNOT get lost in NYC because every subway connects somewhere to every other subway. Get a $4 all-day "Fun-Pass". The Financial district is a little confusing, but again it is hard to get really lost. Since you are interested in subways, you should realize that (going from west to east) IN THE FINANCIAL DISTRICT, the 1 runs on Greenwich St., the N&R run on Church St., the 4&5 run on Broadway, the J&M run on Nassau St, the 2&3 on William St. Finally, the A/C run (sort of) crosstown on Fulton St.
North of the Financial District, you should think of the subway in terms of 5 (almost) completely separate north-south lines: 8th Ave, 7th Ave, 6th Ave, Bway, and Lexington/Park Ave. If you go down into a subway station or look at the list of the trains posted at the top of the stairs, it is unlikely that you will be lost because you will know which line you are at (and there is a station nearly everywhere). Looking at the map, just focus on one color at a time and you will see the 5 nearly separate north-south lines.
Also nearly everywhere outside of the Financial District, nearly every street has a number. It is hard to say you are lost if you are at 27 St. and 5 Ave. and want to go to 34 St. and 6 Ave.
Remember, the island of Manhattan is only about 1.5 miles wide so it is hard to get very lost, especially when there are 5 N/S lines running up and down that 1.5 miles. It is not like other cities where you can go in the wrong direction for miles and not realize it. In NYC you eventually get to a river. In the Financial district the water is on 3 sides. Good luck.
The only issue here is if you accidentally take an express instead of a local. In most cases, three stops on an express is not the same as three stops on a local. I personally recommend sticking with local trains if you're not familiar with the subway.
OTOH, if you like express trains as I do...
Couldn't help but brag about a picture of the Shoreline Trolley Museum of Third Ave Car 629 (my Favorite trolley there) and Johnstown (PA) 357 on page 28 of the September Issue of Railpace.
Story about New Haven Rails 2000 for the 2000 Convention of the National Railway Historical Society and their various field trips, one to the Branford Electric Railway's Shoreline Trolley Musuem, 131 visted on Friday 14th.
Now I'm more into the Rapit Transit at the Musuem so remember New York Days on October 7th and 8th this year!!
That's right, not to soon to make your plans to catch a ride on some of you favorite old RT cars. Expected to be out that day:
- Brooklyn Union/BRT El gate car #1227; IRT Hi-V #3662; IRT Lo-V #5466; IRT R-17 #6688; IND R-9 #1689
Plus you can get up close & personal to BMT Standard #2775 & SIRT/B&O #388 and H&M Black Car #503 will probally come out of the barn for a static display (lots of progress has been made on her structural problems this past year). It's my hope that she can come out & play next year !
Then the first PCC delivered to an operator (B&QT) #1001 will be out and about along with many other NYC trolleys & MOW equip.
Mr t__:^)
This is article that was in yesterday's Norwalk-Advocate newspaper.
Sorry the picture that was in the paper isn't available on line.
http://www.norwalkadvocate.com/Norwalk/release/09-05-2000/article4.html
[Sorry the picture that was in the paper isn't available on line.]
The Postal Service has a partial photo.
For those who will miss it in Connecticut, it's coming to New Jersey on the 16th and 17th at the Hoboken NJT station, a quick PATH ride from NYC.
And I may add that it's a lot cheaper than going to Danbury or Whippany if you don't have a car.
I waited at 96th street for the R142 on the 2 to go southbound. The 11oo Train which was supposed to be the R142 was a R33 instead. I asked the T/O, he said yeah I wondered what happened. He says none where running today. I even went up the 2 line searching for it and all Motorman say its not running!
WHAT HAPPENED!!!!!
diagnostic check up maybe. they have to see if the systems are running fine. nothing went wrong with them because the problems on both are fixed anyway. both are in very reliable state. tho only thing that could have also make them out of service is if something is being modified or because of track detour which the train isn't programmed to alert passengers about.
diagnostic check up maybe. they have to see if the systems are running fine. nothing went wrong with them because the problems on both are fixed anyway. both are in very reliable state. tho only thing that could have also make them out of service is if something is being modified or because of track detour which the train isn't programmed to alert passengers about. wait a couple of days until they are put back on track
NYCT doesn't do "diagnostics" on the test trains during hours that they're supposed to be in service. The R-142 experienced a propulsion problem yesterday, and I guess it wasn't corrected by the time "F Train" went looking for the train.
David
I assume this resets the 30-day clock, then?
I'm not the timekeeper :-), but I would imagine that this incident resets the 30-day clock.
David
Not sure. I did spot 6301-05 running before the afternoon rush hour towards East 180th St and were not making simulated stops.
-Stef
How are they making out with the #6311 and #6321 trainsets?
I rode the #6301 trainset on Saturday - VERY good indeed. The R16 numbers made me wax nostalgic for the 70's. I made a special point of riding in #6304.
wayne
6311-20 were still being tested as of this post. I have not seen 6321-30, nor have I seen any new Kawasaki Cars on the road. However, looming in the barn at 180th St was a 142 with it's blind end showing. What's the deal with that? Maybe I'm seeing things.
-Stef
What about the famous car #6321 of New York Times article fame?
If I'm gonna ride in any of those new-fangled trains, it'll be in that car number. In memory of the era of deferred maintainence and how that plan buried a few car types before their time. Car types that in my opinion are more like real NY subway trains than those glorified monorail things.
Have you seen that article? That car was a rolling wreck by the time it was put out of its misery.
If I may, what significance does 6304 hold? Did it experience some sort of spectacular failure when you were on it? Or did it have a case of 1277 syndrome?:-)
In the Roosevelt Ave. wreck (1970?), 6304 was the car that was struck by the R40M with the brake pipe rupture. 6304 was part of the R16 GG train that was crossing from D3 to D1 track leaving Roosevelt Ave. The first 2 cars of the R40M (4301/4300 which were eventually renumbered to 4501/4500) had their angle cocks closed as well as having their brakes cut out. The collsion occured due to improper procedeures governing other than head car operation of the R40M. 6 6304 was pushed into a support column and ripped apart. If I recall correctly, one passenger was killed.
Thanks, I stand corrected. I knew about that tragic accident, but couldn't recall what the car numbers were.
Actually, 2 people were killed in the incident, if I remember correctly. Sadly, a Road Car Inspector, on his way to work, stopped to help. He assisted the crew by flagging from the 2nd car. Unfortunately since he was not qualified to flag, when the trains collided, he was held responsible and actually charged with manslaughter. When the charges were ultimately dismissed, he got his job back BUT was never allowed to work as an RCI on the road, he endedhis career, working for me in Jamaica Yard.
I had become acquainted with one of the victims two years before the accident. My sympathy is for his family, rather than any TA personnel in this matter.
The TA investigation was limited to the actions at Roosevelt Ave. It appears to have felt that questions as to why a train with 2 defective cars was permitted to leave Jamaica Yard were beyond the investigation's scope. I agree that the on site scapegoat did not warrant conviction for manslaughter. I would have looked in the maintenance yard.
One interesting sidelight. The interest that Mr. Berger and I shared was elective politics. Some of the individuals in that circle have achieved elective and appointed office. They are some of the TA's sharpest critics.
Since i was not an employee of the NYCt at the time of the incident, I can't coment on the maintenance practices at jamaica Yard at the time. However, what evidence was there that the cars left the yord as bad order. A brake pipe rupture can occur at any time, without warning. Is ther more to it that I am not aware of?
I don't have any first hand knowledge. One big problem was that the MTA did not cooperate with any independent investigation, including a commission appointed by Mayor Lindsay. The Lindsay Commission was unable to publish the rumors it heard about the then current maintenance practices. Brake failures were not uncommon in 1970.
This commission could and did concentrate on some engineering practices that could be documented and remain troubling three decades later. The commission noted that the R40 married pairs had a single braking system that required operation from the 3rd car, in the event a brake failure in either front two cars. It also noted that the IND signal and switching system had been designed for single unit operation. The commission noted the tripper would have stopped the train had the brakes on the 2nd car been operational. These brakes would have been operational had the rupture occurred on the first car of train composed of R16's instead of R40's. The IND signal system was designed for such failsafe emergency operation of single units. It was never retrofitted - including the moving of switches - for such failsafe emergency operation with married pair cars.
This commission went on to urge that the specifications for the current order of new cars (R44's) that featured a single braking system for 4 cars be changed. The commission noted that there was still time to change these specifications. MTA Chairman Ronan called this commissions report "politically motivated".
Interesting post. I was totally unaware of this commission. Then again, I was a junior in high school at the time waiting for a GG train at Nassau Ave. to get off at Clinton-Washington, and I can tell you, half the students were LATE for school that day! But if the IND signal system was designed for single car units, they haven't changed it 30 years later! We still have the same signals on the original portion to 179 St.! And now we have the equivalent of 5 car units (compared to an R1/9) running around. In the event of a brake pipe rupture today on an R46, we have to sectionalise 4x4. In the case of this collison, let's reverse the trains. Rule: a married pair must be treated as if it is a single car. Lets say the first car of the R16 had the brake pipe rupture and it collided with an R40M leaving Roosevelt crossing from the express to the local. Now the train would be flagged from 60' away instead of 120'. But with the brakes and brake pipe air cut out in the first car only, the train still would have passed that homeball without the air dumping since that car couldn't hold air in the first place! So the collision still may have taken place. since, sure the second car would have tripped, but by the time the train stopped, the collision still may have taken place. The bottom line is this. Sometimes we must move a train in which the first car or cars have no air. We have to get that train out of there. It is THE most dangerous move there is to make. This is why we now have "new" procedeures of positive voice communication whenever the person actually moving the train is not operating from the head car.
The R40 was travelling at 5 mph or less. With an emergency braking at 3.5 mph/sec it would have stopped in 1.4 seconds. The train would have travelled only 5 feet further upon the application of the emergency brakes. The impact point was approximately 75 feet from the tripper. There would have been no collision had the brakes in the second car been functional.
This arithmetic was not a happy circumstance. It was an engineering criteria of the IND designers. The TA violated this criteria, when they went to married pairs.
This is why we now have "new" procedeures of positive voice communication whenever the person actually moving the train is not operating from the head car.
One of the rumors at that time was that the PA system was not working on the R40 train. This necessitated the use another form of communication between the front and third cars.
Several things should be made clear regarding the procedures for isolating and moving a train via 'other than head car operation'.
First: it would have been irelevant as to whether the brake pipe rupture was in the first of 2nd car. Policy & procedure required the isolation by pairs, not single cars.
Second: It would have been irelevant as to whether the PA was operable in the first two cars. When preparing to move a train in this circumstance, the electric portions are locked back, thereby disabling the PA.
Third: Current procedures require positive communication between the qualified flagger and the operator or the train does not move. On that morning, the RCI was not a qua,ified flagger although he was relaying the signals from the conductor to the motorman. it's not clear (to me)whether the C/R gave the wrong signal or the RCI did. However, it was more of procedural error than design error that caused that incident. Since, I have been required to make the same move over a dozen times in my career. All have been by the book and 100% safely done.
First: it would have been irelevant as to whether the brake pipe rupture was in the first of 2nd car. Policy & procedure required the isolation by pairs, not single cars.
Was this P&P in effect prior to the introduction married pairs in the late 1950's or was it necessitated by their introduction?
Third:... . However, it was more of procedural error than design error that caused that incident. Since, I have been required to make the same move over a dozen times in my career. All have been by the book and 100% safely done.
All railroad operations can be done by the book with 100% safety. There is no primary need for interlocking systems and signals so long as policy and procedures are followed. The El's operated for almost 50 years without such safety devices (with a comparable safety record).
The point is that such devices were mandated to ensure absolute safety in the event that such procedures were not followed. Clearly, the proliferation of WD and GT signals during the past half decade demonstrates that the TA believes there is rationale for extraordiary precautions against personnel not following procedures.
The point that Lindsay's commission made was that such precautions had been in place at the site of the accident, when the system was built. The commission pointed out that the combination of going to married pairs and not simultaneously retrofitting all switches prevented the system from operating as intended.
I think our difference is analogous to the auto safety debate some 30 to 40 years ago. Drivers cause almost all accidents - (Corvair, Explorer and Firestone excluded). However, we now mandate seat belts, air bags, crumple zones,etc. I'm chatising the auto companies for not including them, while you are pointing the finger at the nut behind the wheel.
Before the married pair, there was no need to isolate by pairs. My first brake pipe rupture was on my first night as an RCI. An R-9 used to pull a garbage train out at Howard beach - in the snow. I isolated just one car and away we went.
Perhaps it's because of my intimate knowledge of the equipment that I have so much trust in it and the ability to move it safely - even in an emergency. However, let's assume that the Lindsay commission recommendations were adopted, what would we need to do? Well for one thing, we'd need to move interlocking plants like the one south of Roosevelt Ave. It's not far away from the 10 car mark to be protected by signal as currently configured. This holds true for a married 60' pair and even more for a 4-car 75' linked unit. It seems fairly clear that this is not feasible so the current 'fixed block' signal system would need to be replaced. This will be done throughout the system but over the next 30 years. Clearly, the only real solution is to create policy that insures and mandates that other than head car operation be done ONLY under supervision. To do that, we must be willing to endure longer delays. The alternative is to upgrade the skills and requirements of the train operators and conductors to the equivalent of a class one RR including federal licensing. At least then we'd be sure that the crews had a better working knowledge ogf the way the equipment operated and what they were doing in an emergency. Right now I'd say there is just one conductor (who happens to post here) who knows the equipment to that extent.
Lindsay's commission recommended going back to single units. They recommended changing the specs for the R44's which was possible at that time. It may also have recommended retrofitting the married pairs that were currently in the fleet.
Such a program would not have taken 60 years to complete (30 years from today plus the 3 decades from 1970). It would have resulted in using all the safety features that were designed into the system. Using these features would have eliminated the inconvenience to the public in waiting to get qualified personnel into position to move stalled equipment.
The accident occurred May 20, 1970 at 7:43AM.
The R40M had already been renumbered (as had the Brake Test cars and most of the rest of the R40Ms) when the accident occurred; I remember seeing the car #4501 in the news photos.
R40M #4501 is still in service, last seen on the "L", with portions of the side sheet metal of Slant R40 #4200 used in the repair of the left front corner, and a new nose and bonnet was fitted after the crash.
R16 #6304 was split open from front end top the third door when it hit the curtain wall. As Train Dude reported, there were two fatalities.
wayne
>>>The R40M had already been renumbered ...
Why were these cars renumbered?
?
Peace,
ANDEE
Yes, Steve - spectacular failure indeed; read the subsequent posts.
wayne
B"H
funny, I saw it at franklin ave. this morning at about 8:30 am. looked okay to me. :)
According to the track maps, the Lawrence Street station (M/N/R) is directly above the Jay Street station (A/C/F). Wouldn't it be easy and beneficial for thousands of commuters looking for better access to Wall Street to link these two stations with a stairwell?
(According to the track maps, the Lawrence Street station (M/N/R) is directly above the Jay Street station (A/C/F). Wouldn't it be easy and beneficial for thousands of commuters looking for better access to Wall Street to link these two stations with a stairwell? )
Believe it or not, I think this one might actually be funded in the next capital plan (ie. not a study). The primary beneficiaries would be IND riders heading to the toe of Lower Manhattan, though some riders might also take the trip the other way.
It would also provide a free x-fer between IND and BMT/IRT lines in downtown Brooklyn. All these lines run in the eact same area, but it's impossible to get from Classon Ave on the G to 86th St on the R without going out of your way into Manhattan.
Whoop, I forgot about the x-fer at Ninth St/4th Ave. But you get my point. If all these lines basically converge at the same area, a free x-fer should exist.
(Whoop, I forgot about the x-fer at Ninth St/4th Ave. But you get my point. If all these lines basically converge at the same
area, a free x-fer should exist.)
The F/N-R transfer at 4th Avenue and 9th Street is of no value to A/C riders, and little value to F riders off peak. Let's say I want to go to Atlantic Center, or go to Juniors, or catch an LIRR train on a Saturday. I'd have to wind down deserted passageways from the F, then have a long wait for the R.
If I could go to Jay Street and transfer, both the N AND the R would get me back to Atlantic and Flatbush.
With an unlimted MetroCard I've been known to exit at Jay and walk over to Lawrence for N/R to Dekalb for the Brighton Line. I find this faster sometimes then switch A to C for the Franklin Ave Shuttle to the D/Q.
Yep, the underside of the streets of Downtown Brooklyn are cluttered with rail lines that -- unfortunately -- do not connect with each other. That goes back to the days, of course, when the BMT, IRT and IND were all competing companies trying to vie for the same commuters dollars (or cents as the case was back then).
Now, with the advent of MetroCard, and the fat MTA Captial Programs, we might see more connections in the future (can a Livonia Ave "L" & Junius Street #3 connection be next...?)
Only time will tell...
Doug aka BMTman
A Livonia Ave. and Junius St. connection? I hope that you will mail in your life insurance premium before you attempt it. :)
Hey, Danger is my middle name (when I don't use BMTman)! I scoff at the mere mention of East New York! (besides it ain't as bad as it was back in the '80s).
I'm a big boy. I can handle most "rough" neighborhoods.
And besides, I've got my "battle scars" from the 'Wars of Flatbush'. :-)
Doug aka BMTman
09/07/2000
[I've got my "battle scars" from the 'Wars of Flatbush']
WARS OF FLATBUSH !! Probably fought over an egg cream at the corner candy store!
Bill "Newkirk"
No, fought over a seat at Jahn's ;-)
Doug aka BMTman
>>>>Now, with the advent of MetroCard, and the fat MTA Captial Programs, we might see more connections in
the future (can a Livonia Ave "L" & Junius Street #3 connection be next...?) <<<
How about a Queensboro Plaza-Queens Plaza connection that would enable transfers at 7-N-E-F-R and the proposed Sunnyside LIRR stop.
www.forgotten-ny.com
Another transfer I'd like to see opened is between the G line's Court Sq and the #7's 45th/Courthouse Sq. stations as to allow G riders an alternate route over the E/F into Manhattan when the G gets cut back.
Yeah it look like the IRT station is right above and in between the two IND Stations.......
BM34x
This transfer is being planned!
Will I get the credit? LOL
While they're at it, they can sell the current El structure from the 59th Street bridge to the one over the train yard to that town in New Mexico (or was it Arizona?) that bought London Bridge and build a new, quieter El in the Plaza using modern technology. (We can dream, can't we?) The neat trick, of course, would be to do it without disrupting service.
I doubt an x-fer here will be built. The extra riders it would feed into the already overburbdened Brooklyn IRT line from the Canarsie line would not be a good idea.
That is probably true. There are people with unlimited Metrocard that "transfer" between those two stations.....
BM34x
Design of a transfer between the Jay Street and Lawrence Street stations is programmed for 2001, at a cost of $600,000. However, construction is not funded under the 2000-2004 capital program.
David
Speaking of Jay and Lawrence Streets raises a couple of additional questions.
First, why doesn't the Lawrence Street Station have any tiles on the outer walls?
Second, how about a free transfer between the A/C/E World Trade Center Station and the N/R Cortlandt Street Station? They are also very close together.
- Lyle Goldman
OK. Why not all the World Trade Center stations be connected?
Cortlandt (1)-Cortlandt(NR)-Hudson Term (E)-Park Pl(23)-Chambers (AC).
Since City Hall is in the vicinity of Chambers St (AC), lets connect those two. Then there's Brooklyn Bridge (456)-Chambers(JMZ). Since that's across the park, let's connect them. Since Trinity Place is about a block away from Broadway, let's connect Cortlandt St (NR) with Fulton Street (2345JMZ)-Broadway-Nassau (AC). And, since Church Street and West Broadway are a block apart, let's connect the Chambers Street stations on the A, C, 1, 2, and 3 lines. The result: 13 separate stations between Chambers and Cortlandt Streets linked together, making transfers theoretically easier, but with more complicated passageway systems. I could just hear the announcements now:
This is Chambers Street, the last stop on this M train. Transfer is available to the 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, A, C, E, J, N, and R trains. Connection is available to PATH trains, and New York Waterway ferries to New Jersey and Long Island.
Then there's the Rector Street and South Ferry stations on the 1, N, and R lines. Both stations on both lines have entrances across the street from each other, so connect them, too. Also connect the South Ferry stations with the Bowling Green station, then make a REAL transfer between the J, 4, and 5 trains at Broad/Wall Streets. Since Nassau Street is a block away from William Street, connect these two to the 2 and 3 station. Rector Street's southern entrance on the N and R is at Morris Street. At this point, Greenwich St and Trinity Place split up. One Block over, there's Broadway, and the Bowling Green station is just a block south of there. Let's make another connection! And Wall Street isn't far from Fulton Street. Let's connect stations with these names together, except for the G train station in Brooklyn, let's leave that one alone for now. Wait, the Fulton Street stations are part of the Fulton-Cortlandt-WTC-Chambers complex. This last connection would make all of downtown Manhattan south of Chambers Street one BIG subway station!
A summary of all the stations in this union:
1:
Cortlandt St.
Rector St.
South Ferry
123:
Chambers Street
23:
Park Place
Fulton Street
Wall St.
45:
Bowling Green
Wall St.
Fulton St.
456:
Brooklyn Bridge
AC:
Broadway-Nassau St.
Chambers St.
E:
Hudson Terminal
JMZ:
Chambers St.
JZ:
Fulton Street
Broad Street
NR:
City Hall
Cortlandt St.
Rector St.
Whitehall St.
A total of 21 stations combined into one! Strange and completely unfeasible idea, isn't it? Now that M train announcement above includes the ferries to Staten Island and the Statue of Liberty!
In which case, conductors would probably say, "Transfers are available to all other routes EXCEPT....." If they were to attempt to name every route, station dwell time would probably increase to the point where they wouldn't be able to say, "Step all the way in and watch the closing doors."
(OK. Why not all the World Trade Center stations be connected?)
These connections would require long passageways, which would be expensive to build. Moreover, the MTA has been closing such passageways over the years, because they are good places to get raped or robbed in off peak hours. Whether or not the thinking has changed on this is open to debate. For my part, I have always been reluctant to take the long walk on 14th Street from the 1/2/3/9 to the F. A long passageway is different from changing across the platform or up and down a short staircase.
If the MTA was to spend that much money, I would recommend digging up all of 48th or 49th Street from 3rd Avenue to 8th Avenue, with connections to all subways. This would allow subway riders to walk cross-town at a good clip, without stopping at traffic lights at each avenue.
I really try to avoid long passageways, especially the one between the A,C,E and Times Square station at 42nd street. It stinks, hot, and rather long.
What are the longest passageways in the system?
Here are some of the long ones I know of:
WTC to A Train
Times Square Complex
14th street- IRT to Sixth Ave
Court Square to 23/Ely
Atlantic/Pacific in Brooklyn
Borough Hall Complex
51/Lex to the IND
WTC to the Chambers St station transfer lenght depends on how you do it. If you're at the north end of the WTC platform, or the south end of Chambers, it's a simple up the stairs, down the stairs. If you're at the opposite end, it's hideously long to the exit.
-Hank
Right. I was referring to coming directly from the WTC and walking outaside of the fare control at the E platform to the A/C, 2/3 fare control. AT night it is full of homeless sleeping and begging.
7 to ACE @ 42 St, 123 to F @ 14 St are both one LONG Manhattan crosstown block long.
(Here are some of the long ones I know of:
WTC to A Train
Times Square Complex
14th street- IRT to Sixth Ave
Court Square to 23/Ely
Atlantic/Pacific in Brooklyn
Borough Hall Complex
51/Lex to the IND )
For purposes of exposure to isolation and crime, most of these don't qualify. In WTC to A train, you are alway in a station with stairways up or down, not in a long passageway with no other access between stations. Hence, it is not as threatening. Same with Atlantic/Pacific -- it is scarier and more isolated above the ground.
14th street- IRT to Sixth Ave qualifies. Court Square to 23/Ely may...I've never been there.
Another one I never liked was the elevator from the 1/9 to the A at 168th.
Then there's the Rector Street and South Ferry stations on the 1, N, and R lines. Both stations on both lines have entrances across the street from each other, so connect them, too.
Depending on how they finally set it up, the re-design of the Whitehall Ferry Terminal, may just give you the transfer between the N/R and 1/9.
Well, I wouldn't go THAT far! I'm not even suggesting connecting the Cortlandt Street Station on the 1/9 lines to the other World Trade Center stations. The two stations that I mentioned, on the other hand, are relatively close to each other. It shouldn't be too hard to connect them. Besides, at others here have already mentioned, there are many connections that would be even longer.
- Lyle Goldman
Would be a very good idea if there was ever a full MB closure. People could take the F train (which seems underused to and from Brooklyn) then catch the B, D, or Q at Lawrence st.
Also planned is a free transfer between the G at Court Square and the 7 at COurt House Square. (yes- the E/F at 23/Ely transfer will remain in place.)
Why is the last stop of the 7 line underground? The rest of the # 7 line is elevated in Queens.
It was to be the first stop of the extension. If you visited the station before the renovations you would know what I mean.
Mr t__:^)
They could still extend it. They would have to lower the tracks at the East end of the station by about 15 feet and tunnel under the new mezzanine. (Yes, I know that would mean lowering the platforms too and making other alterations.
"Where there's a will, . . . ."
Maybe the people of downtown Flushing didn't want an el rumbling over Main Street.
Well they also don't want a Wendy's. I put two signs up there requesting that Wendy's re-open. They were both torn down, while memorial signs stay.
I guess Flushing's Wendy's will remain a useless unused piece of property, as this community obviosly cannot or does not want to move on.
It's a sign that Flushing no longer cares about catering to commuters from the 7 train. And with commuters not shopping or even using Flushing anymore, the area will be in a continuous downward spiral.
Not to mention Flushing really, really stinks. The whole place smells like sewage and garbage, worse than anywhere in NYC.
As someone who travels to NYC by subway, I think I'm not wasting my time with Flushing, and instead take the E/F to Forest hills or Kew Gardens where there is a Wendy's, not mention other places to shop.
I wish Flushing could be more like Bay Ridge, terminal of the much lesser used R line. There are tons of places to eat and shop there, and it's not nearly as dirty and smelly as Flushing.
About the closed Wendy's: Maybe not everyone can get over violent outrages as quickly as you, even in an empathy-free place like NYC. Eventually the firm that owns or leases the location will do something with it. Also, I doubt that one store closed for a few months will be the one thing to ruin a neighborhood. After a multiple murder at a Starbucks on Wisconsin Avenue in Washington, DC, the store remained closed for a long time and the neighborhood didn't deteriorate. Nobody said, "Well, because a large chain didn't reopen a store after a horrible murder, the people of (upper) Georgetown obviously care nothing about the visitors who come through it."
Finally, shopping areas don't exist solely so that you will have a good selection of fast-food restaurants to choose from when you happen to pass through there once in awhile. They are the way they are for many reasons, so many that I wouldn't want to suggest a limit to them by listing any. Personally I would go to 179 St. because I like Burger King better (assuming it's still there) :-)
Well they also don't want a Wendy's. I put two signs up there requesting that Wendy's re-open. They were both torn down, while memorial signs stay.
I guess Flushing's Wendy's will remain a useless unused piece of property, as this community obviosly cannot or does not want to move on.
It's a sign that Flushing no longer cares about catering to commuters from the 7 train. And with commuters not shopping or even using Flushing anymore, the area will be in a continuous downward spiral.
Not to mention Flushing really, really stinks. The whole place smells like sewage and garbage, worse than anywhere in NYC.
As someone who travels to NYC by subway, I think I'm not wasting my time with Flushing, and instead take the E/F to Forest hills or Kew Gardens where there is a Wendy's, not mention other places to shop.
I wish Flushing could be more like Bay Ridge, terminal of the much lesser used R line. There are tons of places to eat and shop there, and it's not nearly as dirty and smelly as Flushing.
Also I think Flushing-Main street #7 subway station is one of the smelliest in the system. It always stinks of sewage in there, especially toward the western part of the station.
Well I'm putting one more sign up there, then it's three strikes, and Flushing's down the toilet!
(Caldor, Wendy's, and Genovese)
Well I'm putting one more sign up there, then it's three strikes, and Flushing's down the toilet!
(Caldor, Wendy's, and Genovese)
You can take off Genovese... a new Genovese has opened awhile back on Main St near Northern Blvd., at the site of the former temporary location of Flushing Library, and a failed furniture store.
Some parts are improving. A new Starbucks has also opened. A new building near 39th Ave and Main St has been completed. There are now 2 McDonald's near the subway station.
Not to mention Flushing really, really stinks. The whole place smells like sewage and garbage, worse than anywhere in NYC.
...
Also I think Flushing-Main street #7 subway station is one of the smelliest in the system. It always stinks of sewage in there, especially toward the western part of the station.
Isn't that western area where the tower is??? Also I see many people stand in that western "stinky" part of the station during the AM rush, so it couldn't be that bad. I'm sure there are other places (i.e. Bowery? unless it's all cleaned up now) that stinks more. And then there's the rats along the Queens Blvd IND line...
The third strike should be Alexander's.
Yes, the area does stink. I hate to get into stereotypes, but what do most of the people there consider the cornerstone of their diet? Fish. What do they do with the ice that is used to cool the fish after they have finished using it? Shovel it into the subway or into the sewer. And that is what the commuters have to smell.
With all the talk of how advanced Oriental society is when it comes to academic studies, the truth is that it is borne from a far less desirable trait, and that is a culture that is brutally straightforward and short-sighted, looking to solve problems imediately without regard to future consequences.
When was the last time you saw the sanitation department go through flushing with a street cleaner. The mess is mainly from old puddles of water that sit in the gutter for a long time. If you leave a fresh bowl of water in the hot sun it will "go bad" after time.
As for your idea that Oriental society is a lower form of life. You can take over for MR. LA Rail System. He is one of the most hated persons on this site. If you want to be come him welcome to my killfile. If not, behave yourself.
Rob, With all due respect, I never hinted that Orientals are a lower form of life. Saying that a culture is brutally straightforward and short-sighted with respect to another is by no means a statement that it is superior or inferior to another. If that is the way you want to interpret it, fine. I won't killfile your posts because I disagree with you on that point, as you wish to killfile mine. And I don't want to start another craziness like the one in another thread, for unlike "one of the most hated persons on this site," I have verifiable "proff" and proof to support my observations, and it follows below.
My experience with Oriental culture takes many forms. One of those forms is reading about it from varied sources, my most notable being Andy Rooney, who reported on a trip he took to China by stating, among other things, that he saw two farmers tie a pig to the top of a wagon, and then sit on the pig as a bench as they both rode on that wagon to a market, presumably to have the pig slaughtered. To even the jaded Andy Rooney, this was a bizarre sight.
Another source is some People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals propaganda infomercial showing how cats are boiled and skinned alive in China, and how monkeys' brains are prepared for consumption by native Chinese. Not that I care about PETA's slant on the issue (I don't), but to Orientals, a cat, dog, rat, cow, chicken, and fish are all sources of protein. One life form is not held in any higher a regard than another. We wouldn't think of eating Rover. They don't give it a second thought.
Third, Ding Chow Ping, who was the dictator in China during the Tiananmen Square massacre, really didn't put on airs when he ordered the slaughter of hundreds of pro-democracy demonstrators. Even Mao Tse Tung wasn't worried about American nuclear attacks because to him, 300 million people could be replaced by the country's women in a generation. To further illustrate their amoral attitudes, to life or otherwise, many Chinese families dump the bodies of baby girls into rivers because they would rather have a male child heir to the family name than a precious gift of life, period.
And last, my personal observations show me that Orientals can be some of the most aloof, least approachable people in America. They may be good at math or other academic endeavors, but their knowledge is based on rote instead of reason. A friend of mine taught English in Korea, and when he reviewed American and British literature with his students, and asked them how they felt about a certain character, they were unable to offer any constructive opinions. They were able to comprehend, say, Romeo and Juliet, but were unable to critique any of the scenes or characters. This observation becomes personal in that my dealings with Orientals show a marked disdain for opinion -- To them, there are only facts, and since facts are indisputable, there is no need for candy-coating your speech with your opinions about them.
IT IS THIS POINT -- their tunnel-visioned, if-A-then-B thinking, exhaustively outlined above -- that I used to explain my opinion why downtown Flushing smells like a cesspool.
Garbage crews constantly pick up the trash in that neighborhood, but what would a street sweeper do to standing water, or its remains, but spread it nice and equally about a neighborhood? Suppose just one fish store was dumping fishy ice onto the street every day for five years. Five years of street sweepers passing through would spread a thin film of fishwater and all its bacteria for a few hundred yards. Now, if ONE fish store that unethically dumps its ice onto the street could do that, imagine what several of them could do over time.
For water to turn "bad," it must have some nutrients for bacteria to survive in it. Don't be silly by saying that a puddle of water that sits for a few days will go bad and have to be tossed. What rain puddles of any import are left standing in Flushing for more than a few hours before they evaporate after a rainstorm?
The "puddles" of water you refer to are caused by the constant discarding of water rich in nutrients for microorganisms, and organic waste, in some of the least sanitary methods possible, including tossing it into the street on hot summer days. As a result, the whole neighborhood smells like an open sewer pipe. And the (mostly) Oriental shopkeepers couldn't give a damn. They have an efficient, if undesirable, method of disposing their wastewater, and they are rarely taken to task for it.
The only thing I am willing to apologize for, to Bob or anybody, is making it seem as if this was the ONLY problem contributing to the odor of the Flushing neighborhood in question. Bob, are you willing to accept that much?
And yes, Chinatown in Manhattan also smells like hell. Ever walk down the southern reaches of Mott Street, or the area around Kam Man Food Products?
And last, my personal observations show me that Orientals can be some of the most aloof, least approachable people in America. They may be good at math or other academic endeavors, but their knowledge is based on rote instead of reason ... This observation becomes personal in that my dealings with Orientals show a marked disdain for opinion -- To them, there are only facts, and since facts are indisputable, there is no need for candy-coating your speech with your opinions about them.
IT IS THIS POINT -- their tunnel-visioned, if-A-then-B thinking, exhaustively outlined above -- that I used to explain my opinion why downtown Flushing smells like a cesspool ...
The "puddles" of water you refer to are caused by the constant discarding of water rich in nutrients for microorganisms, and organic waste, in some of the least sanitary methods possible, including tossing it into the street on hot summer days. As a result, the whole neighborhood smells like an open sewer pipe. And the (mostly) Oriental shopkeepers couldn't give a damn. They have an efficient, if undesirable, method of disposing their wastewater, and they are rarely taken to task for it.
Whehter this overly logical form of thinking is a common Asian characteristic is not really the issue here. I for one don't know whether it's true or not, though in any event it's very difficult to generalize to a whole group of completely different cultures that have nothing in common except some physical features. But even conceding that Asians DO think in a highly logical, linear manner, how does that explain the smell? If those fish dealers actually thought about the consequences of disposing ice in that manner, they'd realize that it wasn't the best method - they have to smell the stink too. A much more likely explanation is the fact that the Flushing River stinks due to drainage problems. And that affects the whole 'hood.
I heard that the drainage system overflows and raw sewage is released into the river. Its horrible expecially on a hot humid day. I think that the city knows but refused to take action. And my parents, relatives and friends are NOT narrow minded or very straight foward. I myself hold a lot of creative thought. Now the only narrowed minded person here is Sliverfox who's relatives are blood related. He sees the actions of several people with the same skin color and makes
racist comments. He thinks his race is perfect and is a true MR. LA Rail. If you don't agree with LA Rail's comment then who can agree with KKK Sliverfox's comments. NOW, SLIVERFOX THIS THOUGH IS BASED ON MY THOUGH. SUPRISED?? YOU NARROW-MINDED SOB.
If it really is the smell of fish that is disturbing, it could be a matter of what one has learned from childhood. Smells always invoke memories and the emotions that have always been tied to it. This is different from sights or sounds, incidentally. "I read it somewhere."
Anyway, the smells of "oriental" food areas like Mott St., Dundas St. in Toronto, Grant Avenue in San Francisco, or King St. near Hotel St. in Honolulu are pretty normal to me, just because of my early experiences (no, I am not of East Asian extraction, I have just been around). My wife, however, can barely tolerate the fish and seaweed smell of the markets. Similarly, I used to have trouble with room temperature cheese until I lived in Europe for awhile and had no choice. And most Americans appear to have a slight buttery scent to people from Japan because of all the dairy foods we eat compared to the none that they eat. A phrase used in business there supposedly is "Smell like butter, not like soy", meaning... to do business with Westerners, act as if you think western.
Finally, to keep the message on topic, I like the smell of subways, my kids don't.
I totally disagree with this assumption. First of all, the term "oriental" is not appropriate, rather it is asian.
I think that asians (especially chinese) are some of the most intelligent and kind people you can find. And the chinese have improved Flushing, in fact, the asian population there is perhaps the only good thing going for Flushing.
The smell is not from fish markets, resteruants,etc. It is because Flushing has inferior drainage and sewage system, and there is no where to dispose of smelly garbage except at curbside. (few alleyways)
The result is the smell of rotting food and sewage. One thing is fish smells. And there's nothing you can do about that.
I am around Kam Man food products and Mott street all the time, and the only thing that smells is the fumes from trucks that cut through Chinatown.
And the fish you get from Chinese markets is some of the freshest you can find, that is why it smells so strong.
And blame China all you want, but America is partially responsible because U.S. companies take advantage of the lack of democracy and exploit women and children in sweatshops in China.
And your "shortsited" China is busy building new trolley lines and subways, that's alot more than what we are doing.
If you check out the new Pudong area of Shanghai, you'd be quite impressed.
But getting back to Flushing, the main problem is that it is being ignored by the city and mainstream companies, and given a bad name simply because it is multi-cultural. And unfortunately Silverfox, there are other people who think like you, blaming cultures for problems, instead of people in power who hold back freedom, discriminate, and prevent new subways (by stirring up false stereotypes about minorities).
Let's tie up some loose ends here:
First of all Rob, calling me a narrow-minded SOB is not the way to make me change my mind if I am indeed wrong about my assessments. To everyone else on this board, I give my wholehearted apology if I appeared to be unduly harsh in criticizing a certain group of people. I base my opinions on my observations, and if they don't represent the whole picture (whose observations do?), it is up to you to provide a counter-observation, of which you provided many. Thanks for effectively diluting my opinion several points.
As for the term "Oriental," it is a more accurate term than the politically correct "Asian." Raisa Gorbachev, being born in Asian Russia, is an Asian, as are Indians, Pakistanis, Chinese, and many others. Am I talking about ALL these groups? No. I am referring to the Oriental groups -- the ones from the Orient. If someone called me an Occidental, I wouldn't care one bit. I don't call American Indians "Native Americans" either, because I am a Native American, born in New York City to American parents. What narrow-minded SOB, to use a popular taunt, determined that "Oriental" is somehow derogatory?
As I mentioned above, I accept the Flushing Creek's contribution to the stench of the Flushing area. If I am not mistaken, however, I believe the City is finally building an overflow tank on College Point Blvd near the Western Beef supermarket. The reason for the sewage discharge is that NYC's sewer system serves a dual function -- storm drainage and sanitary drainage. A rainstorm deluges the sewage treatment plants, causing the raw sewage/rainwater overflow to (necessarily) be discharged directly into the sea. One of those discharge points is into Flushing Creek. The overflow tank will catch an amount of the excess capacity of the sewer system and release it slowly into the creek. I don't know if it will process any of this effluent, but it will surely mitigate the odors.
Next, fresh fish doesn't smell. The smell is caused by the fact that, no matter how well you clean, there are still small amounts of fish left on every surface. With the rhythmic cleaning, drying, and re-stocking of the fish display chests, any surface (including sidewalks, curbs, doorhandles, and whatever) that comes in contact with the wastewater builds up an amount of the fishy water that decays indefinitely, causing a deeper and more pungent odor. I would bet that, if the people who cleaned their stores were a little more careful in how they dump their fish ice, that a large portion of that odor would go away.
Finally, to Rob King: Do me a favor, and if you disagree with my statements, present your arguments as I have above, and not like some looneytoon without an argument who has to resort to ad-hominem attacks to prove his point-less. I have been more than cordial in that regard. You owe me no less.
I've got to admit, this piece is more intelligently written than that of those who complained about you.
Well I do beg to differ about your stereotypes. Chinatown has many more "oriental" people and yet it is cleaner than Flushing.
And there are more fish markets. But Chinatown is a tourist attraction, and investors are finding some potential there.
Chinatown is growing fast, with new shops opening constantly.
The chinese stores in Chinatown do a big business due to high demand, the same cannot be said for Flushing.
Flushing is dirty not from oriental culture, but from ignorance by the city and by business. Most units in Chinatown are small and easy to run a business from. In Flushing, units like Caldor are rather large, and have too high of a price tag for chinese investors.
But mainstream investors feel that the demographics are unsuitable for business. So it's a no-win situation. Asian businessmen generally don't have the $$ required to purchase a big box unit. And mainstream (white) business people feel the location is sleezy and does not attract a profitable clientele.
And unfortunately, Wendy's has a presence problem as it is, and has a pretty poor record with having locations in minority locations. The company probably feels that Flushing is no longer profitable. That's why Genovese moved. The moved to a smaller store because it wasn't profitable.
But don't blame the asian people. Rather it is the stereotypes of outsiders that actually create the problem by scaring off investors and businessmen.
Flushing is dirty not from oriental culture, but from ignorance by the city and by business. Most units in Chinatown are small and easy to run a business from. In Flushing, units like Caldor are rather large, and have too high of a price tag for chinese investors.
But mainstream investors feel that the demographics are unsuitable for business. So it's a no-win situation. Asian businessmen generally don't have the $$ required to purchase a big box unit. And mainstream (white) business people feel the location is sleezy and does not attract a profitable clientele.
We've discussed that Caldor building before. Its size and layout is the main issue, not any neighborhood or ethnic factors per se. The building is too large for all but a relatively small number of big-box users - but they want single-floor layouts. It's really only suitable in its present form for a department store, few if any of which are in an expansionist mode. Realistically, the building will have to be subdivided to be useful, and I don't know if zoning rules would allow that.
Wow, I'm sorry this got posted twice. I posted it once, got an error message and changed the title, then it worked. I think my modem is on the fritz.
Does anybody know if the placard of R68 #2755 came from the old BMT Standard #2755?
09/06/2000
[Does anybody know if the placard of R68 #2755 came from the old BMT Standard #2755? ]
The placard you described is known as the number board. The numbers seen on #2755 are not from the BMT Standard that had the same number, but stick on vinyl numbers. These type numbers I've seen before on some Redbirds to replace rusted or missing porcelain enamel numbers boards. R-32 #3348 which is a strange re-numbering case has those stick on numbers.
Bill "Newkirk"
Ah but #3348 has that only on ONE end! That is a very odd one, that #3348.
I wonder if BMT Standard AB #2755 had the white painted numbers or did all of them get the NYCT plaques. I've seen the NYCT plaques even on D-Type Triplexes and MS - photos in "Cars of the BMT", which is a GREAT book!
wayne
It also has an engraved plastic number plate (3348, that is)
-Hank
Trains Magazine’s “Newswire” presents information on the impact of new federal safety standards on the Talgo trainsets, which was discussed here recently. The FRA extended until Oct 31 its deadline for the decision to grandfather the Talgos with respect to buff strength (static end strength). The new standard is 800,000 pounds of impact; Talgo can withstand 441,000 lb. Amtrak says the passenger compartments can withstand more than 800,000 pounds of impact.
The FRA decided to Grandfather the currently in-use Talgo trainsets through the recently tightened safety standards. Posted on Railpace Magazine’s Hot News . (Scroll down a ways.)
According to an item in Trains Magazine’s “Newswire”, the consortium constructing the Acelas told the Boston Globe that late September is the target date for delivering the first fully tested Acela trainsets. The Globe reported that service could begin in October if that were true.
Maybe by the time the 2nd ave subway...........oh never mind
Peace,
ANDEE
While taking the Amtrak to NYP I looked out the window at 30th street station in PHL, and there it is the new Acela express train. This immediately quelled my fears that it was just another scam by Amtrak to boost ridership (i.e. Acela regional). Then I pick up a Boston Herald on the seat next to me and I look at the price tag $280 for NYP to BOS. One the NE Direct train that would cost me $100. So by that proportion (2.8*1) a ticket from DC to NYP would be $375!!!!, a Metroliner is $280 and the NE Direct is $134. I could buy three round trip airline tickets (even from Regan Airport) for that much.
I could buy three round trip airline tickets (even from [National] Airport) for that much.
Have fun sitting on the tarmac at LaGuardia while I whiz on down to D.C. on Acela. Let's not knock it till we try it! Sometimes, you do get what you pay for. :o)
Here is the list of fares between NY and Washington, D.C.:
Metroliners: $120 on weekdays and $98 on weekends one way.
Acela Regional and NortheastDirect: $67 on off-peak hours and $80 on peak hours one way.
If you use AAA card, you will have a 10% discount. Peak hours are Friday and Sunday between 11AM and 11PM and other specific dates like Thanksgiving.
Chaohwa
NARP members also receive a 10% discount on Amtrak fares.
Shame that if you belong to both AAA and NARP, Amtrak won't give you a 20% discount. (sigh)
Student Advantage gives me %15 or %20.
Bob,
As soon as it's running, I say we try it out. I'll zoom on down to Philly, you can join me, and we'll go on to DC for a little railfanning on the Metro, MARC, and VRE. Whadayasay?
KP
Let's do it!
Be sure to do railfanning on weekdays. Both MARC and VRE don't run on weekends.
Chaohwa
Thanks. Maybe we could work out a time that you and others could join in.
Bob
My dad told me yesterday evening that while on a Metroliner this week, the passenger across the aisle was the head of Amtrak Northeast Corridor Operations. He said they hope to start Acela in late October. Also, he said they are considering making a cell phone free car on some trains because many people are complaining about how loud some people are on their phones which is actually how my dad figured out who the man across the aisle was! E-mail me for more info. Also, they will be starting a frequent traveler program with businesses.
That's the word up here in Boston too; one trip per day with the ACELA Express equipment to Boston by the end of October. The equipment was up here two weeks ago for more testing.
I will be riding the ACELA Regional "electric train" from Boston to NYC tomorrow for the first time, so I'll see if any of the crew has more information. I'll be sampling the Business Class service to see if it's worth it; my suspicion is it will be a trade-off between overzealous cell phone users (business class) and lots of families with rambunctious kids (economy class). My return is Wednesday evening, and I'll report back thereafter.
[It looks like some air-traffic-impacting weather on Wednesday, so the train looks like a great option.]
And that's...
For once, AMTRAK's timing is right. If it's employees can actually provide the service, they can eat the airline's lunch. Air service is bad, getting worse, getting more expensive, and there is little than can be done about it.
I agree 100%, Larry. I am a 20+ year veteran of the Boston-LaGuardia route. I have flown it 30 or so round-trips per year for the last 10 years, all in the jump seat (cockpit), so I've seen the clouds from both sides now (with apologies to Judy Collins). Before that, in the "back of the bus." One-way ,walk-up, unrestricted fares have gone from $12 in the early 70s to $203 now. This is among the highest "dollar per mile" route in the country, if not the world.
The air traffic system has degraded substantially just in the last few years. One can not put the blame on one factor; there are many. But the three major ones are the fact that the airlines are using smaller planes, with more frequencies (including the new regional jets, which fly higher and faster than commuter "props" and take up valuable airspace). Plus, LaGuardia, which by law is a "slot-controlled airport" (meaning a maximum number of take-offs and landings per hour) has been partially deregulated, allowing new entrants to add flights. Finally, the air traffic control system is woefully out-of-date (in terms of technology), and the FAA's procurement system is horrible. Just as any highway or railway would, when you add that one extra vehicle that puts the capacity over the edge, you get congestion that can't be beat. Add on a bad weather day, (see? you knew I'd get a weather comment in here) you're cooked.
If AMTRAK does ACELA Express right, the business community will flock to it. Benefits include:
One-third less cost for the business traveler, with center city to center city service in approximately the same amount of time
No taxi fare - most business people won't take the subway :-( in Boston or NYC
No being trapped in your seat
Ability to use electronic devices for the whole trip (oy, cell phone hell!)
Much less liklihood of weather-related cancellation.
There are currently two airlines flying the shuttle route between BOS and LGA (USAirways and Delta). Time will tell whether there is enough erosion to support both services.
Railpace Magazine’s online Hot News says that Acela Express service will begin Oct 29 with one eastbound Washington to Boston train in the morning, returning in the afternoon .
Don't count on business class to relieve you of rambunctious kids. I rode and "Empire" train a month ago in business class which had 3 or 4 kids running around and nary a cellular phone in use.
But let me start from the beginning. It was chaos in Utica, with the conductors handling the boarding of the NYC-bound train fairly badly. Because Utica does not have raised platforms, only one "coach" door opened, and it was difficult to see if the business class door was receiving passengers. We must have been in the station for 15 minutes. When my wife and I finally found our way to our business class seats, I muttered something about how the families with the kids must be in the wrong seats. When my back was turned, my wife saw the kids' caretaker give me a look and elbowed me hard in the ribs (I did deserve it, as my temper was getting the best of me). Later, after striking up a conversation with the Grandma (in an effort to relieve any tension), I learned that they had come from Buffalo and bought what she called "Custom Class" (the old name for business class) tickets on purpose. I also learned that the other "mother," who had graciously moved up so my wife and I could sit together, had received no help from the Amtrak conductors in finding her and her son's seat in business class. When she finally managed to find out from them where to go (first car, the other side of the cafe), she had already stowed her bags somewhere in coach. When she asked for the conductor's help in getting them down, apparently the man roughly threw her suitcase down in the aisle and quickly left her to deal with getting to the front of the train on her own. Now, I realize that this was a crowded Sunday evening train, and that porter service is probably not in their job description, but this sort of flippant treatment is absolutely unwaranted. This woman needed help, and the conductor couldn't be bothered. I told her all about the new satisfaction guarantee and encouraged her to see if she could get the guys name and write to Amtrak for her money back.
I just got off the R142 on the 6. I rode it twice today, and found it very impressing. I'll probably end up catching it tomorrow again. I also got some pics. I can't wait until they pass the 30 day test.
Clark Palicka
CEO TrAnSiTiNfO
http://www.transitinfo.cjb.net
Today is day 6 or 7
Make that day 7 its been in service since Friday.
I meant the Kawasaki's on the 6 line.
Clark
And PB Dave meant that it was the 7th day in the row of testing on the 30day acceptance test.
I rode the R142A 6 train today. I was quite impressed. Very smooth and quiet, announcements were clear, and the displays really help people who wouldn't know their way around.
Front letter sign very easy to read, as well as digital side signs.
A/C was very good, and the seats were fairly comfortable.
Also saw a yellow work train, looked like a few Redbirds painted yellow. This was sighted at 47-50 IND going south on the local track, at around 11:18am.
To set the record straight - today's Metro (page 8) explains it all.
Here's why the El will be closed for the next nine (or maybe 10) weekends:
Installation of ATC signal system (not ATO) - this will work interlockings and turnouts remotely as well as control train movement
Platform pours and station work at Berks, Huntingdon and Church
Placement of overpasses at Huntingdon and Church
Painting of overpasses at Allegheny and Erie-Torresdale
Platform repair at Spring Garden
"Other" track projects
Through the end of September, service will terminate at Spring Garden. After that, it ends at 5th Street.
/*Before I went into the exciting world of trains, I was in the TV repair business. I hesitate to mention this because there may be a former customer or two here.*/
We never fixed any TV set, save for the crappy RCA we're stuck with now....
/* I remember the old B/W sets that had tubes but none the less were 'instant on' models.*/
Saw a Panasonic like that once. really WAS "instant", moreso than today's TVs (which seem to require a warm up period!)
/*The manufacturer would put a silcon diode across one side of the on/off sw. This would allow the filaments of the tubes to 'idle at about 1/2 powr whit no B+ applied to the tubes. This, of course, meant that the manufacturers had to do away with the power x-former.*/
Ugh, series string. I *HATE* series string radios and TVs.
Postwar 7 inch electrostatic sets (remember THOSE?) used to often be series string. No fun to work on at all, without an isolation transformer. I'm amazed UL, etc, even alklowed such a dangerous design to exist.
/* Now what relevance this has to the original thread, I can't imagine but I'd love to hook Hilly up to the output of a 3DC3 (anyone know what a 3DC3 is?) and then ask her about Whitewater. */
That's cheating, because in most TVs, the HV rect draws it's filiment voltage from the flyback, not the main transformer or series string. And the focus rect would grab it there too. The shunt regulator would be hooked to the normal spots, though. Hey, remember sets with focus rects and shunt regulators? oh yeah, tube/transistor hybrids? I collect old radios (and occasionally TVs), so I know a bit of this, and I have an RCA recieving tube manual Nah Nah:P
Focus Rect = 1V2
Eventually we started to use Solid rectifiers that plugged into the 3A3 socket but didn't require the filament winding on the flyback.
I can't remember the tube designation for the shunt rgulator - 6HU5?
I guess that means that I'm finally cured.
6BK4, I think was the first. I recall reading (I predate this), that GE had a MASSIVE recall on a number of typesd in the 70's. They were paying money for the returned tubes (even if used), and all. I also recall seeing lead cases ones...
Absolutely correct. The 6BK4 sat next to the 6LQ6 Horizontal Output on the RCA and similar. On the Zenith, I believe it was the 6HU5.
My uncle's Zenith set was a hybrid tube/transistor set.
Remember Quasar's "Works in a drawer" set with mini-circuits? There was a TV store on Rt. 23 a mile or two north of I-80/US 46 that had one of those sets on display in their front window.
My uncle's Zenith set was a hybrid tube/transistor set.
Remember Motorola's Quasar "Works in a drawer" set with mini-circuits? There was a TV store on Rt. 23 a mile or two north of I-80/US 46 that had one of those sets on display in their front window.
09/07/2000
[I know a bit of this, and I have an RCA recieving tube manual ]
That's an oldie, I doubt if they publish those anymore. What year are we talking when it was published?
Bill "Newkirk"
Mine are from '40 and '71
I think they stopped in the mid 70's. I used to have a 50's vintage one until it walked off :(
Just to be a little on-topic, the R-16 PA Amp used a vacuum tube (6SN7) if I remember correctly, and had a vibrator.
Was it a vibrator or was the B+ derived from the 600V with a
big ballast resistor?
A vibrator? I hope they cleaned it when they were finished with it.
That's worth a rim shot.
Vibrators were also used in car radio circuits in the days of vacuum tubes. On top of that, A. C. Gilbert put them to use on American Flyer trains as sound generators for their diesel horn and air chime whistle. I met a fellow at a TCA meet a few years ago who bought out the entire stock of vibrators from a longtime electronics store in Denver, Fistell's.
Those Flyer trains are like a time capsule with their 1950s technology.
Where you found the vibrator, you often found the gas filled rectifier tube 0Z4 nearby!
Makes me want to dig out the old TV troubleshooting guide which told you which tubes to test depending on the nature of the problem. There was one symptom which was accompanied by "Failure of almost any tube can cause this problem. Test all tubes."
Some TV's wired many of their tube filaments in series to avoid extra transformer windings. Blowing a filament, not an uncommon occurance, usually resulted in no picture and no sound on such sets. Take all the tubes out and bring them to a tube tester.
When I had my TV repair business, we had 2-3 tube testers in a corner of the shop for the do-it-yourselfer. That was up until the late 70s. Wher does one find a tube tester in this day and age?
" Where does one find a tube tester in this day and age?"
in heypaul's apartment... i have a precision 912 tube tester in a wooden carrying case that works... i bought it in a coney island juntique store about 10 years ago for $25...
Juntique?!?
steve... i misspelled the word... it's junktique... i used it to indicate that it wasn't a fine antique store, but more like a flea market or garage sale type of establishment...
I see. Hey, as long as the tester works, you made out all right.
Fistell's in Denver had one the last time I was there several years ago. I believe they even still stock tubes.
I not only have a Radio Shack emission tester, but the Bingo Hall I run still has four working 1960's RCA black & white tvs with a full compliment of tubes, plus a spare for parts. I also have an early 1950s Admiral 16" b/w, a 1959 Zenith 21" b/w, a mid 1960's Admiral 13" portable, and a 1968 Zenith Color Console in my collection. All are 100% tube except the color set which is a hybrid with a few transistors - and with the exception of the portable they are all in working shape - the portable has an annoying intermittent.
I also have an AM/FM console (without stereo decoder though it can play stereo records and take inputs from a stereo tape or receiver, a 1950s Admiral six tube AM, and a number of five tube AM sets, most of which still work. Lastly I have an ancient AM/Shortwave set with a mix of loctal and two digit numbered tubes. My tester doesn't even have sockets for them!
Off topic but fun!
Gerry
I wish things were as simple as they were back then. I have a 27" Zenith PIP monitor in my den. After 12 trouble-free years, I venture to say I'd trash it if it ever failed. Things have just changed too much and I don't want to go back to school.
It's not easy to fix ICs. In fact, it's usually cheaper to get a new one, if it's smaller than 32".
-Hank
vcrs are like that too !! after 2 repairs its time to get a new junker
( like the new rail cars ) ...
I have a RCA VBT200 which I suspect is one of the first VCR's built for consumer use. I think it goes back to about 1977. You experts might be able to date it more specifically. I have the original box, dust cover, instructions etc. It was a two speed (SP,LP) top loading VCR. I retired it about a year ago, mainly because the wire on the remote was too short. It worked perfectly except for a portion of the clock digital readout that was burned out. It was a bear to program, and you could only program it 24 hours in advance.
I wrote to RCA thinking that they might want it for their museum, but never got an answer. Sentiment prevents me from throwing it out, so I am storing it in its original box. I guess my heirs will get to trash it.
>>> I have a RCA VBT200 which I suspect is one of the first VCR's built for consumer use. I think it goes back to about 1977 <<<
There was quite a bit of rapid improvement in VCRs, and to tell how close to the originals it was you would need to look at the features. I know the first VCR I bought was a Hitachi some time in the early ‘70s for over $800.00. At that time it was uncertain whether Beta or VHS would become the dominant system. I did some comparison shopping and believed I was getting the latest features then available. The tuner(s) consisted of eight separate buttons which could be individually adjusted and fine tuned with a screwdriver to individual TV stations as part of the installation. You could program four events (in a twenty-four hour period) but the programing had to be done at the VCR, not through the remote control, with the setup using the digital clock display rather than on screen programing. It had three recording speeds, but the choice of speed was made at the VCR rather than with the remote control.
The remote control was a rudimentary thing. Besides turning the VCR on and off, you could step in one direction through the eight channels, and you could stop, record, play, fast forward, or reverse the tape, (but no stop action, or any way to see the picture while going forward of backwards at an increased speed). If you were using the fast forward, the only thing that told where you were on the tape was a resettable mechanical index counter on the front of the VCR which was too small to be read from more than two feet away from the VCR.
Tom
Your remote sounded a lot better than mine, so I dug my old VCR out to check. The wired remote on mine is a remote pause only. It only has that one feature.
I had forgotten how big that VCR was. It must be close to four times the size of the more modern ones.
I've seen some of those first generation VCRs. They're big. Did any of our Subtalk regulars ever own a Betamax unit? My gut feeling was that VHS would catch on, which it did.
My nephew in Maryland had a Betamax unit that he claimed was far superior to VHS. He finally gave up on it when it became difficult to purchase prerecorded or blank cassettes.
Betamax was far superior to VHS. It was Sonys short-sightedness that caused them to fail. Sony charged other companies to use their technology. JVC (inventor of VHS) did not. One of Sonys only failures.
Peace,
ANDEE
Beta featured better picture resolution than VHS.
The cassettes were smaller and less bulky too!
>>> The cassettes were smaller and less bulky too! <<<
Because of the smaller size, there was also a more complicated tape movement and a shorter recording time. This more than anything else caused me to choose VHS. Betamax ended up joining the 8-track cassette as a great invention that did not win the market.
Tom
I've got a 1954 Bulova clock radio with five tubes which still works. The filter capacitor was replaced in 1971. The clock no longer works; it needs a new gear which meshes with the worm gear on the motor shaft. Add to that a 1954 Magnavox Collaro phonograph with a tube-powered amplifier. It still works fine and is excellent for 78s. The tonearm is good and heavy - you can actually guide it with your hand as it tracks the record groove. If you have a record which skips, this sucker will fix it.
>>> The tonearm is good and heavy - you can actually guide it with your hand as it tracks the record groove. If you have a record which skips, this sucker will fix it. <<<
What an interesting conundrum. Since 78 rpm records are collector's items as much as your phonograph, and playing them with a heavy tone arm degrades them (unlike CDs which do not wear out with repeated plays) each time you play a 78 record on your phonograph you are surrendering one irreplaceable item to enjoy another.
Tom
Old Tom some old 78s were transfered to DIGITAL audio using the old original etc....
78 rpm equipment with a modified needle & tonearm then recorded with
a good ""microphone"" fed into a mixing board & mastered into DIGITAL recording form for permanent archiving !!
The results were better than using a standard broadcast quality
Shure m447 or current broadcast quality phono pickup device thru a standard turntable!!
So you mic ""the real thing"" & transfer it to DIGITAL.!!!
I don't use it all that much. Since its ceramic cartridge doesn't pick up nearly as much surface noise as a magnetic or moving coil cartridge would, you hear more of what was recorded than clicks or pops. I have dubbed some 78s onto cassette, filtering out just enough surface noise to get a good sound without washing it out.
09/23/2000
[The tonearm is good and heavy - you can actually guide it with your hand as it tracks the record groove. ]
Are there any quarters scotch taped to the tone arm to achieve that extra weight like we did years ago ?
Bill "Newkirk"
( dont forget the reel to reel tape recorder ) !!!
especially the tube models like my ampex!!
09/23/2000
[( dont forget the reel to reel tape recorder ) !!!
especially the tube models like my ampex!!]
Good Morning L.A. and Salaam !
We have a lot full of retired NYCT buses for sale or scrap. maybe some of the Hollywood elite can scrape up some dough, buy em' and run them in L.A. in case if the strike becomes protracted! Something to give the folks at BusTalk to photograph when visiting the city of Angels !
I had an old Ampex reel to reel, model 755. Numerous belts had to be changed every couple of years or so. Wear of mechanical parts deemed unreplacable spelled the end to old 755 !
Bill "Newkirk"
Nope - no quarters. It's just a heavy tonearm. The tracking force is something like half an ounce, which works out to 14 grams. You have to use a sapphire stylus; a diamond stylus will literally stop a 45 rpm record dead in its tracks. It's that heavy.
I also have a Pioneer RT 1020L open reel deck, bought used seven years ago. Luckily there is a TV repair shop not from where I live which repairs open reel decks. Most places don't mess with them anymore. I took it in a few months ago to have a transistor replaced in the recording circuitry. It's got a four-channel playback head, a drawback to the days when quadrophonic was introduced.
IIRC, that troubleshooting booklet listed that particular symptom as a horizontal black bar through the picture with lots of noise. Our Magnavox B/W set once developed black and white bars across the screen with a loud humming sound. Scared me to death.
Usually a 100 MFD Filter off the B+ end of the rectifier would resolve that
Are you sure it was a 6SN7? It seems like a poor choice for an audio amplifier. The 6SN7 is a medium mu dual triode that was used primarily for in the vertical deflection circuits for television (630 chassis). It also has a maximum plate dissipation of 7.5 watts for both sections together.
I would have assumed that something like a 6L6 would have been more appropriate for a medium power class A audio amplifier. Also, I'd assume that they would have used the 6L6 (metal) rather than the more common 6L6-G (glass).
BTW, I'm assuming that you were referring to a 6SN7-GTB, the 6SN7, 6SN7-GT and 6SN7=GTA were all obsolete by 1955.
No, I'm not sure at all. Today I looked for my old R-16 drawings to verify it but the drawings seem to be gone with the cars.
Sorry to hear it.
I may have been one of the last generation of electrical engineers that received instruction as to how to use vacuum tubes. I even had to use one in a SOA design back around 1965.
I was wondering if you would remember whether they kept the filament voltage applied all the time or had to wait for the cathode to warm up before using the PA's on the R16's.
When they put fans in the Boston PCC cars they devised an electronic circiut to vary the speed. A thermister was used to determine temperature, and the voltage across it was amplified by a 12AU7. A pair of power tubes then were used to control power to a pilot motor which operated the fan rheostat (the warmer the car the faster the fans ran).
Actually, the 6SN7 was quite common as a signal amplifier, until the 50's and the amazingly popular 12AX7 came out. For a power amp stage, I'd assume that they'd use either 6L6, or 6V6s. They'd likely use a vibrator / power transformer for isolation purposes, and also because the output tubes would want around 250 - 350 on the plates, not 600V. I'm guessing the amp would be about 4 tubes, and maybe another for the power supply. They sure weren't "hi fi", and I doubt you'd need too terribly much power anyway.
Anyway, I've seen lots of audio amps (jukebox) with 6SN7s in them. I believe the origional Williamson amp used them too.
I am hoping that some of you might be able to help me out here. I am looking for anybody that has pictures of 1938 IRT "Wolds Fair" Car # 5655.
Car 5655 is the only car of this class that still exists. I am looking for photos of the car at the following places:
A) In service on the Flushing line
B) In service on the Astoria line
C) In service on the Third Ave. El.
D) Laid up at any yard during it's service life.
E) In work service
F) In it's current condition in Coney Island Yard.
In addition, I am looking for anyone that might be willing to donate any parts for this model car. Including but not limited to:
1) A Side signbox
2) A Front Rollsign
3) A brake stand
4) 8 IRT type grab handles
As of this time, I can not say why I asking. I will say, Items donated will be put to good use.
Please mail me directly.
MARK618@WEBTV.NET or DTYPE6112@WEBTV.NET
Thanks.
-Mark
[In addition, I am looking for anyone that might be willing to donate any parts for this model car. Including but not limited to:
1) A Side signbox
2) A Front Rollsign
3) A brake stand
4) 8 IRT type grab handles
As of this time, I can not say why I asking. I will say, Items donated will be put to good use.]
You wouldn't be trying to outdo Heypaul and build an entire car in your apartment, would you? :-)
Is that what they call a "railroad" flat?
Surely you've seen http://www.nycsubway.org/cars/irt3.html, right?
Mark
Look also for "The Incident" - I believe it is under "movies". - http://www.imdb.com. Details regarding the movie set, a mockup of a 1938 Steinway WF Lo-V are available there.
wayne
Mark, is this the next overhaul project for the Museum?
Dropped off my car to be serviced today, and was "treated" to a ride on the N in Brooklyn.
It was a long wait for the train at 59th Street. Sea Beach service was cut, and B service was improved, recently. Once every nine or ten minutes.
Then the train was held at 59th Street for several minutes.
Then it crawled up 4th Avenue with nothing in front of it.
Then at 36th Street, a B went in first, costing a few minutes more.
All that was before the nightmarish, twisting ride through Dekalb, Lawrence, Court, Whitehall, Rector, Cortlandt, and City Hall -- a far cry from the direct express to Canal Street it once had.
Yuck.
The N is always SLOW after Pacific Street. When I used to have to take the N from 8th Avenue to Pacific St to get to work, usually it took about 5 minutes to 59th street, and then was held there every day becacuse they were being "held by the tower" as the conductor put it. But after I got off at Pacific, the train stayed there for about 5 mins, and then left the station extremely slow. I probably could have RAN faster to Court St.
That's why it's called the Slow Beach
All part of Barely Moving Trains BMT
The "N"ever and the "R"arely
Actually, I prefer Nearly the slowest and Really the slowest.
Was it an R-32 or R-68 consist?
(Was it an R-32 or R-68 consist? )
It was an R-32. The only good news was that I got to stand at the front window and see how slow we were crawling.
I should have asked this before: was the train running express along 4th Ave? That would be all the more galling.
he said that a "B" ran in front of him so therefore it must've been the express tracks. duh.
As a motorman, I truly dislike working that line.
When I was a kid in New York I had two dreams. To be a Major League baseball player for the Yankees ( even though I hated them, I wanted to play for the best) or a motorman on the Sea Beach. Since you are a motorman, why does the Sea Beach always get screwed?
I'll say this: it was one of the best lines in the system till they killed the EE. Until that time, it was express on Fourth Ave. both way virtually all the time, a quick hop over the MannyB, then Bway Exp. to 57/7. When, in effect it was "combined" with the EE and sent out to Continental, that part of the trip felt endless. On nites & weekends when it returned to 57/7, it became a pleasure to work once again. Now even though it got shortened to Ditmars Blvd., the all local and tunnel routing alone with those hairpin slow curves between DeKalb & Canal make a motorman feel he is driving all day on the LongIsland Expressway during the afternoon rush! The Sea Beach route itself always seems to be a victim of General Orders plus the motorman always has to worry about UFO's being thrown from overpasses and the sides of the track onto the roadbed.
I don't know how old you are but apparently you do remember when the Sea Beach was a great ride, but I never knew the EE had any connection with it. That is news to me. Just when did that combo take place and how far along what route? I know, or at least think I do, that the EE never went to Coney, so where was the Sea Beach EE connection.?
There wasn't one. The EE was Continental-Whitehall local via 60 St. tunnel and Broadway Local. A nic treat too because the first couple of years they had R1-9's on that line, neat riding them on a line where they ususally weren't found before the merger. [Nice running them too].
When the EE was elminated the N assumed the Queens portion of the run.But it was the N as us older cats remembered all the way from Coney to 57/7.From there during daytime hours on weekdays only it was local to Continental.
Personally I liked that run. Didn't have to make so many short trips, it felt much like the D train in a way. But that was when itwas the real Sea Beach express, most of the way.
I'm no motorman, but wouldn't the 'R' be worse? All underground, all local, all the time, from the deep reaches of Bay Ridge to the heart of Queens. Imagine if it went all the way to 179th Street! And a motorman posted earlier about not liking "5-trippers" on the 'L', which is also all local, but at least the scenery changes.
BTW, the 'N'ever and the 'R'arely are just as maddening in Queens. Especially Queens-bound. I've said it before. Several 7's whiz by at QBP before you see and 'N'. Several E's and F's do the same at QP before you see an 'R' or a 'G'. And this is rush hour.
Also, I often have occasion to ride the 'N' back into the city evenings, and there is this sort of lull in service around 7 pm. I once waited for 30 minutes on a Manhattan-bound Astoria line platform, and watched 2 or 3 trains go by signed 'Not in Service' before finally boarding one. There must be some kind of shift changover around then. I've learned not to try to go into Manhattan around 7 pm on the 'N'.
(BTW, the 'N'ever and the 'R'arely are just as maddening in Queens.)
At least they get a few extra trains at rush hour, some of which turn at Whitehall. The latest MTA schedule (posted in many stations) has more frequent service from Queens on these lines than from Brooklyn (same with the F).
The basis for this is probably ridership. Probably the part of the N from Astoria to Manhattan has a lot more riders than the part from Bay Ridge. Declining ridership is probably the reason the N has fewer trains now, while the Canarsie L, with greater ridership, has gotten more. Probably low ridership, as compared with the Brighton Express, Brighton Local, and West End, some 15-20 years ago, with the beginning of Manhattan Bridge problems, is what doomed the Sea Beach to the tunnel and the horrible Cortlandt St.-City Hall turns. I wonder how it might be possible to obtain figures on the number of fares collected at each station on a typical weekday.
That might be worth a shot. But let's face it, as long as the Sea Beach meanders into the bowels of lower Manhattan while the D and B cross the Manny B you know damn well ridership will be less on the Sea Beach. The Manny B crossing shortens things considerably.
I usually never run after trains, but when I'm taking the N or R, I race to get inside as fast as I can, because the next train won't be for awhile. I try to avoid the Broadway line. It is one of the most pathetic lines that runs throughout Manhattan, mainly because of long waits and no express service.
I have often wondered if the TA or whoever runs the trains have a grudge against the Sea Beach line. It seems to me that it has been relegated to the barnyard and neglected all to hell. Notice how unkept the stations are, the roadbeds in Brooklyn are a disgrace, and the route the train takes into the bowels of Manhattan make for a long and drawn out ride. Express it in Manhattan, and over the Manny B, terminate it at 57th Street, and walla, we have a train worthy of praise. But I'm living in the past, or dreaming---of course.
Fred, there might be a couple of reasons I could think of: first, the Sea Beach has a long reputation (not it's own fault) of being the Line most popular with 'Subway Surfers' (the lunatics who ride the tops of trains for the hell of it). These anti-social acts only bring the line bad publicity.
Second, it predominantly in a cut, and cuts by nature become breeding grounds for trash and illegal dumping. I am sure the TA has to be on top of things as best as they can in regards to roadbed hazards. I remember hearing once that a T/O on a run down the line encountered a discarded bicycle on the tracks!
Doug aka BMTman
I thought the West End line was the most popular with surfers. Anyway when it comes to dumping garbage, the old Franklin Shuttle was the king of that heap. I wonder if it has gone back to being a dumping ground since the renovations, especially between Botanic Garden and Prospect Park.
[I thought the West End line was the most popular with surfers.]
I'll have to find that Village Voice article, but I thought the 'N' had the most notorious body-counts from subway surfing.
About the Franklin Shuttle: Nope. The line is as clean as a whistle. I've taken it quite often and it is a proud testiment to the seriousness of the neighborhood, as well as NYCT in keeping this historic line up and running better than before.
The only trash I see are lots of cans/bottles that are accumulating by the Franklin Shuttle station on that heavily ballasted embankment.
Doug aka BMTman
dougie...i think you deserve a lot of the credit for keeping the franklin shuttle spotless... when the mta started their "adapt a subway line" program, you immediately volunteered to take the franklin shuttle... i know you are out on the tracks at least 3 times a week with a burlap bag picking up redeemable cans and bottles...all those nickles and dimes you earn help you afford to buy the gasoline needed to move your kreisler 300 from one side of the street to the other on alternate side days...
Thanks, heypaul, my secret is out! ;-)
Paul, I heard you have voluntered to do the Brighton between Neptune Ave and the Brighton Beach Station, singing anti Russian Songs
During the aftermath of the Wanamaker Washout of 1956, work crews were heard singing the Volga Boat Song while clearing rubble.
[i know you are out on the tracks at least 3 times a week with a burlap bag picking up redeemable cans and bottles...all those nickles and dimes you earn help you afford to buy the gasoline needed to move your kreisler 300 from one side of the street to the other on alternate side days...]
heypaul, actually that's not entirely accurate. I use the change from the redeemable cans and bottles for my "MTS Fund". This is my attempt to raise enough money so I can buy a brass HO scale R-32 two-car subway set without having to go to the local Capo for a loan. :-)
(Would you care to make a donation?)
As for my Kreisler 300: I am forced to beg for change on the A Line on the evening rush hour to cover my car's insatiable appetite for high-octane products. (anything you can spare would be greatly appreciated...;-)
Doug aka BMTman
>>>...afford to buy the gasoline needed to move your kreisler 300...<<<
That's rich---LOL
Peace,
ANDEE
About the Franklin Shuttle: Nope. The line is as clean as a whistle. I've taken it quite often and it is a proud testiment to the seriousness of the neighborhood, as well as NYCT in keeping this historic line up and running better than before.
Neighborhood residents probably appreciate the line and realize how important it is, thanks to the scare they went through not long ago when NYCT thought about closing it entirely. They can't take it for granted, as something that'll always be there.
Honorable mention for dumping:
The Port Washington LIRR in Queens (also a cut)
Living back in 1955 old Fred, must be the Arcadia Smog
Until this weekend the weather had been unseasonably cool and even now there is no smog. Wrong again Bob, old buddy.
The Broadway line is a mere shadow of its former self, thanks in no small part to the bridge fiasco.
I know exactly how you feel and it rankles me. Once the Sea Beach was the signature line of the BMT. No more, I'm afraid. I remember reading Holiday Magazine in May of 1950 when there was a big feature about Brooklyn. The train that got the ink? The Sea Beach. Some in the TA or somewhere doesn't like my train at all. If only I were the President, I'd make it something special by an EO, Sad to say I cannot do anything about it but complain=====aand I'm 3000 miles away. So who'se going to listen to me?
fred... i just want you to know that i hear your lament about the fate of the sea beach and i do feel your pain... unfortunately, that will not prevent me from turning the sea beach open cut into a sanitation land fill when i am elected senator from our fair state of new york... only by raising the sea beach from below grade level to about 100 feet above level when we reach the final level of the sea beach land fill is there any of hope of returning it to its glory days of the 40's and 50's... only then will it truly be at the top of the heap...
heypaul, tell me when to start dumping...
I'll do what I can to fill it in.
Doug aka BMTman
doug... i think if you took most of the posts here recently on a couple of hot topics and dumped them into the sea beach cut,you could raise the level of the roadbed by about 4 inches... i don't know what you could do to counteract the smell though...
heypaul, it sounds like I'd have to contact the DEP to get some of those "giant odor-eaters" (like they use at most sewage treatment plants) and add that to the Sea Beach dumpsite so that the route doesn't become any more offensive than it is already. ;-)
Doug aka BMTman
Ouch Doug! I know you love the Brighton "D" but remember that's a local and partly a cut, too. If they could make the Sea Beach run again in Manhattan as the Broadway Express, send it into Canal Street and then over the Manny B it would speed up the train again. And what idiot moved the Northern terminal from 57th Street to Ditmars? The made it a long, slow train. The terminals when I was a kid was Times Square, 42nd Street to Coney Island. Let some other damn train take the rest of the route to Astoria and let the Sea Beach run express in Manhattan while the R can local for all she's worth. In fact the R could go back to Astoria. There would be a little tie-up in the railyards but that's a cheap[ price to pay to restore the BMT to what it ought to be.
Fred, the main problem is how are you going to increase ridership on the Sea Beach? It probably was rerouted to the tunnel in the first place because of less ridership than the B, D, and Q. Hey, I noticed your coded message to #1 Brighton Exp Bob raised the dander of the Webmaster. I was going to explain to him that you were very excited, having gotten back from your trip to New York. I could speculate too about the cause for your excitement. Wanting to ride through a good open cut, you gave up, in despair, waiting for a Nearly the slowest, and gave into temptation and got on a Brighton Local train instead. One of Train Dude's Concourse R68s D trains that are so clean and shiny they look spanking new. You enjoyed the ride but you were still uptight when you got back from California for fear some Subtalker like heypaul might have caught you red-handed on the D.
The secret's out and I'm exposed. You caught me red handed. I rode the Brighton and enjoyed it. But let's leave it at that until the clamor dies down or Brighton Beach Bob will never let me hear the end of it.
I think that both of you guys should just lay off poor old Sea Beach Fred. If I recall correctly him and I share the same birthday (10/27, Fred, correct me if I'm mistaken) and as we all know that is a very significant day in the history of the subways in NYC.
Peace<
ANDEE
PS---Fred I truly apologize if I am confusing you with the Guy from the 50th state--I've not been well lately
I definitely remember it was October 27th.
I once mused that I like the subway because I was born only two days before it's anniversary. Then when someone came on saying they were born on the same day, I had to strengthen the bond by coming up with a formula.
I've also come up with the theory that since I was born two days off, that's why I'm not as fully immersed as some others.
If my son had come out an hour and twenty minutes earlier, he too would have shared his birthday with the subway, albeit 91 years later.
If he'd waited another 23:40 (I can imagine my wife giving me a dirty look as I type that last phrase), he would have shared his birthday with the opening of the 63rd Street tunnel, six years later.
But he's right in the middle. He LOVES the subways, oblivious to the proximity of his DOB to these landmarks. It's more because of how I exposed (some would say corrupted) him to the joys of riding at an early age.
Hence the bond is heriditary and environment- it has nothing more to do with your birthday any more than your astrological sign determines your personality- although some people take that stuff dead serious!!
That's why I'm such a NYC subway fanatic. I was born on October 27, 1940. The New York Subway opened on October 27, 1904.
June 22 would have been a good date of birth for you as well. It was on that date in 1915 that the Sea Beach line opened for business.
For me, I was born on the day when IND was exactly 37 years old! (IND opened 9/10/32 and I was born on 9/10/69)
Mike the Mailman in Denver!
[For me, I was born on the day when IND was exactly 37 years old! (IND opened 9/10/32 and I was born on 9/10/69)]
My firstborn daughter was 3 months old on that day.
IIRC, that was the day the Mets went into first place for the very first time. I remember it well.
Apparently, nothing significant on the subway ever occurred on my birthday, November 19. Nothing that I'm aware of, anyway. I do know that I share the same birthday with Alan Young, Roy Campanella, Kathleen Quinlan, Meg Ryan, and Jodie Foster. I am also one day older than Bo Derek.
Your birthday, November 19, is probably the most significant day in the history of World War II. On November 19, 1942, the Soviet Army launched a two pronged attack north and south of Stalingrad. Within three days the two groups met and began to close the trap on the German 6th Army of 330,000 men at Stalingrad. On Feb. 2, 1943, the Krauts gave up Stalingrad, having been reduced to 91,000 men. Stalingrad was the most decisive battle of the Second World War, so you have a very historical birthday Steve.
Is there a subway in Volgagrad? That would make this on-topic!!!
>>> the Krauts gave up Stalingrad <<<
The war is long over, the Germans are now our friends. Isn't it time to quit using ethnic slurs?
Tom
Do you know Steve8AVEXP? He lives in your area/
Do you know John Smith, he lives in Los Angeles County with you, along with nine million other people.
Oh Pigs, you're a gem. A sarcastic gem, but one, nevertheless. I take no offense.
I would
You would what? BTW, I almost sent out an SOS signal for you. Where the hell have you been? You know you've got competition. There's a Brighton Express on this site. Any relation to you?
Unfortunately, Michael and I have never met. Perhaps our paths will cross someday.
Thanks Steve. I'll remember that.
Then I am to believe that the train would still run but at a different level. At least you're not going to destroy it, are you?
yes fred... the train will still run... but at a much higher level... when we get done with filling in the cut and leveling it off like the staten island dump, it should be running a couple of hundred feet above level ground, making it the highest trackage in the system...
heypaul: You got my vote.
Yeah, but your plan will REALLY make service "stink".
So who's going to listen to me?
Certainly not your students :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Well what do you think the N and R stand for? Never Rrives. Har har har.
Aahhhh. Those were the days.....
I was wondering if station agents can move the unused unlimited "value" from one card to another. I have a number of unused 7-day promotional cards. I want to use them, but the card readers on buses wear out a portion of the design. I would like to use them and not be limited to the subway as that would add 20 minutes to my commute.
Well hello there friend, have I been missing your posts or has it been a while ?
I think our favorite Station Agent will confirm that they CAN'T do anything with unlimited cards, i.e. move remaining TIME to a new card, let you add VALUE to a unlimited ... but maybe if it's never been used they can kill the graphics card & issue a new one. (They can see that it has never been activated).
Of course some of them give you a story about getting the original card back, but know they have no real reason to keep it.
Mr t__:^)
We can not do anything to an unlimited card. All we can do is give you an envelope to send to 370 Jay Street.
So, I guess it is the LONG way to and from work if I want to preserve my cards. It will be nice to see Stillwell. Thanks for the help.
I would GUESS that the problem is the System can't tell the difference between a $63 monthly card that hasn't been "activated" yet and one that will expire at midnight that day ... so they can't let the Station Agent do the exchange because it would lead to fraud.
Mr t__:^)
Even if the person bought a card from "my booth", walked away, and came back (even within 6 minutes, and even if no one else bought a card or had me check a card) we could not void the card or render any assistance other than give them an envelope.
We can void a card if they have not left the booth. We are also unable to refill a "yearly MetroCard" or a Railroad Plus card (the ones issued by LIRR or MNCR covering the Railroad plus unl;imited subway for a month)
M-N & LIRR have two flavors of Mail-N-Ride (Value & Unlimited) can you re-fill the Value version ?
Mr t__:^)
We can add money to the value cards.
If the card is a Railroad Plus Card (A + will be near the month of validity) then we cannot add money, and in fact the computer, even if we try to add money, will not allow us to continue the transaction.
I found an old MTA document from May of 1998, which seems to confirm your reply, add therefore is still in effect:
- "Mail & Ride Plus - $66 Commuter Rail MC ... completely expires at the end of the month. This includes the value on the card ...."
"Station Agents must not add value to, or trade value from ..."
However:
- Mail & Ride $33 Value MC ... station agents can add value or move it to another card.
Mr t__:^)
Thanks. The software on our computer will automatically detect what kind of MetroCard we insert (to try to add value) and will not allow us to add money to: Unlimited, Mail and Ride Plus. Employee Pass.
Do the mail and ride unlimiteds expire at the end of the month or are they normal?
The Mail & Ride Unlimited Monthlys function ONLY for the calendar month that they were issued for.
The M & R $66 Value MCs work for the same time frame, so if there is money left, you lost it.
The M & R $33 Value MCs are still good (for bus/subway but not LIRR) after the end of the month. You can also move it, i.e. to the next month's $33 card. BUT the next month's card won't work until the beginning of that next month.
At least that's what the May '98 MTA document says ....
The Express Bus Plus card at $120 works for 30 days after you first use it. We still have some customers that buy/use them, but more of our customers buy mulitples of the $30 (33) value card.
Mr t__:^)
On the road this afternoon testing from 180th St to Brooklyn Bridge!
-Stef
I see the set has been reunited. A few days ago, I posted that 7221 and 7222 were alone on the test track. BTW, the film with that shot is still in the camera.
I'm a member of the Planetart Society. I used to subscribe to Scientific American, but got tired of not understanding what they were talking about after the first parr. Anyhow their web site reports:
"The morning of September 1, 2000, our planet had a close encounter with another member of the solar system a newly discovered asteroid.
This celestial visitor, given the rather catchy designation 2000 QW7, passed about 12 times farther away from our planet than the moon (or a distance of approximately 4,613,000 km from Earth). While this may not sound like a close encounter, in an astronomical sense this asteroid was close enough to raise some eyebrows."
Upon reading this report our friend from Sheephead Bay had a panic attach. Let me be the first to assure him that it's all right to come back out in the sunshine.
What has this have to do with subways ... better take that fan trip NOW, because you never know !
Mr t__:^)
I thought heypaul would be hiding in his motorman's cab.:-)
This afternoon, I rode the R142 on the 6 from Grand Central, around the City Hall loop, to 33 street. At Spring street, I noticed a man, sitting across from the electric sign map, writing on a piece of paper. When we were the only two left on the train at BB, I asked him whether he worked for the TA, and he told me that he was in chanrge of making sure that the electronic stuff worked on the R142. He also told me that 7213(the car I was in) and 7218 both had the same problem, that the maps jammed. It was a very nice converstion. He also told me that it would take at least another near, before all R142's replaced the redbirds on the 2,5,6.
Clark Palicka
CEO TrAnSiTiNfO
http://www.transitinfo.cjb.net
Whoops! Sorry I missed you; I was in 7220, and the left-side strip map was malfunctioning while going uptown. It froze up around Astor Place, after blinking two stations at once, came back at 33rd St., and froze again at Grand Central. I got off at 59th around 4:10, and it still said 42nd St. Don't know if it was a glitch because, apparently, the C/R forgot to activate the route at BB.
So you were in the last car. Did you ride the train around the city hall loop??? And walk through the train??
Clark Palicka
CEO TrAnSiTiNfO
http://www.transitinfo.cjb.net
I didn't ride around the loop, gotta do that next time, but I think I went through the train (or was that the Bombardier set? Yes, I rode the R110B, R142, and R142A all in one day). I was with a friend, and we were in school uniforms, dress shirt & tie. I was the, umm, bigger one. You probably saw us. BTW, it was the first car when I was on it, on its way to being seen at 125th by ArtJ.
I noticed the strip map had problems in car 7211. The train was at Elder but the map was stuck at Middletown Road.
If this was the same train at 125 around 4:30 it was still having trouble. Got off the express and the local was in the station with the doors closed. It then left and the doors never opened. No one was able to get on or even off.
Clark,
Do you mean another YEAR before all of the redbirds are replaced? In your last sentence, you typed NEAR...
Thanks
A man wearing a striped work vest was seen standing in the Green Line tunnel near the Shaw station facing the track Thursday morning; the TO blew the horn and applied the brake. Subsequently a dead body was found in the area and authorities wondered whether he got hit by a train. The train was evacuated, service was delayed while trains ran around the stopped train, and normal service was restored by afternoon rush hour. This from a
Washington Post online story. Perhaps a less cryptic story will follow.
Notice the rave review of the handling of the situation one woman gave. Imagine if this were in NY....
(discuss here)
(not here)
They're lucky they have a bypass track there (where the Yellow line trains normally lay up). Otherwise they might have been SOL.
wayne
Here's an update on the Metrorail Green Line incident from the Washington Post.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A31495-2000Sep7.html
OK; I spoke too soon (as usual). Having read the Washington Post article, my previous post is hereby recanted. I didnt have my facts straight.
wayne
This is the second time someone was hit and killed by a Metro train within the past three weeks.
While driving through DC on August 29, I heard over the radio that some man reportedly committed suicide by jumping in front of the Red Line Metro at the Friendship Heights Station. Nothing about the incident was mentioned on the news by the time I arrived to New York.
Does anybody know about this incident?
I was on Metro that day (8/29) and there were all sorts of announcements about trains bypassing Friendship Heights outbound. I asked one of the Metro booth folks and he noted that service had been suspended about 1 PM that day but resumed about 3, with trains bypassing in both directions and shuttle buses running between Tenleytown and Medical Center. (I also recall announcements for elevators out at 3 other stations - when this happens, Metro provides bus shuttles to the next nearest stop with a working elevator.)
The 11 PM news in DC had a short blurb about an 'accident' but not a whole lot on details other than the disruption to Metro Red Line service and a woman, I believe, taken to a hospital.
The R110B made its scheduled run today! I rode it all the way from Euclid to 168th St. Problem: there were no automated announcements. The C/R made an interesting announcement along the way, to the effect of "Ladies and gentlemen, today you are riding the R110B New Technology Test Train. We apologize for any inconvenience we may have caused, but we reassure you that the new trains we will order will be full-length."
The other day when I was riding the C/R kept apologizing too. Also, since the side displays are blank, most people didn't know what train it was.
Well they also don't want a Wendy's. I put two signs up there requesting that Wendy's re-open. They were both torn down, while memorial signs stay.
I guess Flushing's Wendy's will remain a useless unused piece of property, as this community obviosly cannot or does not want to move on.
It's a sign that Flushing no longer cares about catering to commuters from the 7 train. And with commuters not shopping or even using Flushing anymore, the area will be in a continuous downward spiral.
Not to mention Flushing really, really stinks. The whole place smells like sewage and garbage, worse than anywhere in NYC.
As someone who travels to NYC by subway, I think I'm not wasting my time with Flushing, and instead take the E/F to Forest hills or Kew Gardens where there is a Wendy's, not mention other places to shop.
I wish Flushing could be more like Bay Ridge, terminal of the much lesser used R line. There are tons of places to eat and shop there, and it's not nearly as dirty and smelly as Flushing. Even though there are less bus routes in Bay Ridge and a much lesser used subway line than the 7, downtown Bay Ridge (between 86th and 95th on 4th ave) is very busy. Yet Flushing's shops aren't very busy at all, as most people are just walking from subway to bus and vice-versa.
It's just a shame that an area with so many bus lines and a busy subway terminal is depressed, run down, and dirty.
Also I think Flushing-Main street #7 subway station is one of the smelliest in the system. It always stinks of sewage in there, especially toward the western part of the station.
Well I'm putting one more sign up there, then it's three strikes, and Flushing's down the toilet!
(Caldor, Wendy's, and Genovese)
I've got one question for all of you though, then I'll shut up
Will Flushing become the next Jamaica, a once thriving downtown now depressed?
That stench may also be emanating from Shea Stadium, based on the way the Mets have been playing lately.:-)
I tend to think of Flushing as a vibrant community in NY terms (then again, maybe it's just 'cuz there's a Starbucks now). The main intersection near where the subway entrances are is not very nice with the closed stores there(*), but the Asian businesses on other blocks and on side streets appear to be flourishing. And of course, a large part of Flushing is residential, and the buildings appear to be quite well-occupied.
(*) BTW, what makes you think it's the community that doesn't want new stores to move in? It's not like people walking by on the street seeing your signs have any say in whether Wendy's is in Flushing.
Maybe part of the problem is that Flushing tends to cater to its residents and to Chinese and Koreans from around the city and metro area, not really to commuters that hop on the bus and subway there. If you're not looking for Chinese or Korean goodies, you may be out of luck.
But families from the suburbs drive to Flushing on a weekly basis to eat food and buy groceries. Students from Manhattan go to Flushing on weekends to sing karaoke. I know someone in Boston who asks me to periodically send her a specific item available in the Northeast U.S. only in one of the tea shops in Flushing (and not in Chinatown in Manhattan or Boston). Most of the non-restaurant stores aren't open late, but if you go on a fair weather weekend you'll see people out in force doing their shopping and eating. I agree that walking the streets can feel empty on weeknights.
And you know, a few months ago I went to eat at a Chinese restaurant on Main St. The restaurant we went into looked at our group of 4, and asked if we had made reservations, because the restaurant was going to be very full-- this was on a Thursday night! We didn't have reservations, but they made room for us anyway, and sure enough over the next hour the restaurant filled up and started having to take names down at the door. Next door, another restaurant was having a grand opening gala, diners admitted by invitation only. And the several times I've eaten there on weekends the restaurants have generally been packed.
I tend to think of Flushing as a vibrant community in NY terms (then again, maybe it's just 'cuz there's a Starbucks now). The main intersection near where the subway entrances are is not very nice with the closed stores there(*), but the Asian businesses on other blocks and on side streets appear to be flourishing. And of course, a large part of Flushing is residential, and the buildings appear to be quite well-occupied.
I have heard that the endless reconstruction of the Main Street station was at least in part responsible for some of the local store closings, by causing both vehicle and pedestrian traffic disruptions. Any business is going to suffer if the roads and sidewalks are torn up and would-be customers simply can't get to it. And these effects can linger long after the work is finally completed. 14th Street in Manhattan is still somewhat rundown in comparison to other areas, a condition that's been attributed in part to an interminable repaving project that was finished in the early 1990's.
It sure looks vibrant to me. The times we've been there the pedestrian traffic was so thick it was difficult to walk quickly.
I tend to think of Flushing as a highly Americanized Chinatown. I do like shopping for chinese music and things. But Flushing has little to offer compared to Chinatown. Flushing has 4 places to buy chinese music, mostly full price. Chinatown has 20 music stores, alot with 30-50% off. In addition, there are many places to buy TRADITIONAL
chinese art and designs, like lanterns, dolls, and costume. Traditional chinese clothing is very easy to find in Chinatown, but not in Flushing.
Flushing is just such a crappy neighborhood in so many ways. You can't win. They lack mainstream stores, they have empty stores, they don't have a Wendy's, it's dirty and smelly, and whatever asian culture is there is highly westernized to the point of extreme cultural dillution.
[It's a sign that Flushing no longer cares about catering to commuters from the 7 train.]
With two McDonald's, a Burger King, a Pizza Hut/Taco Bell, and a KFC, all w/in 2 blocks of Main & Roosevelt, what makes you think that Flushing no longer cares about catering to commuters? Sometimes on the way home from Queens College I stop by the Pizza Hut to grab a personal pan pizza. Sometimes, if I don't eat breakfast at home, I eat it at the McDonald's on Main Street, just outside the bus stop for the Q25 and Q34.
[The whole place smells like sewage and garbage, worse than anywhere in NYC.]
Blame it on the Flushing River! Rather appropriate, isn't it?
[(Caldor, Wendy's, and Genovese)]
Although I can't say anything about Caldor, and Wendy's replacement are the other restaurants above, I can say that there's a Duane Reade on Main & Roosevelt, which would replace Genovese.
The 2001 calendar is now in the TMNY gift shop. Shop us on-line at tmny.safeshopper.com.
In a recent thread there was some question as to who used transit in LA.. Today' LA Times provides the following data from the LAMTA
While the word count may exceed 30 the data is apparently public record from a government entity. the article claoms 450k riders/day
Percentage of bus riders who do not have a car, truck or motorcycle in their household: 49%
Percentage of bus riders who do not have a valid driver's license: 68%
Percentage of bus riders who use mass transit to get to work: 69%
Percentage of bus, rail riders with income of less than $15,000: 68%
Percentage of Los Angeles County's population with income of less than $15,000: 20%
Racial and ethnic background of MTA bus and rail riders
Latino: 51.9%
Black: 22.3%
White: 12.6%
Asian/Pacific Islander: 8.6%
Other: 4.6%
Source: MTA data for 1996-98, 2000
Here is a link to the L.A. Times story which produced the statistics regarding the transit ridership in Los Angeles. The thrust of the story is how riders will be affected by a possible strike.
Tom
Calling all Subtalkers...
Do you have any pics of the Deuce at its seediest, in the mid-70s to early 90s? Quite a contrast to what's there now. I'd like to use them on a page in...
www.forgotten-ny.com
Kevin,
I'll keep my eyes peeled, BTW, loved your Grand Concourse history on:
WWW.forgotten-ny.com
even got the building one of my relatives lived in.
Peace,
ANDEE
I hope this doesn't start a long thread but I actually miss it!!! As a teen in the sixties that's where you went to see some great dirty movies. Now 42nd is too sterile, much like Disneyland or a mall!!!
>>>As a teen in the sixties that's where you went to see some great dirty movies<<<
You pervert...(takes one to know one)8-)
Peace,
ANDEE
>>>As a teen in the sixties that's where you went to see some great dirty movies<<<
You pervert...(takes one to know one)8-)
Peace,
ANDEE
They were bound to go bye bye anyway.
Why go to Times Square and perhaps mugged
(I was never mugged or accosted there but...)
when you can stay at home, and call up all of that stuff on your computer for (almost) free.
Elias
If we let them, those who believe that they know better than we do what is good for us would turn the whole City into Disneyland.
Yesterday around 3pm a redbird was stopped South of E180 with police on the structure and plenty of transit employees in orange vests on the structure. Downtown trains were running on M Track. While weaiting for a 2 train, the redbird came into E 180 on the "Downtown Local" track. What happened? a 12-9?
BTW- the C/R on the 2 on M track opened the doors on the uptown side even though dispatcher( via station PA) said open downtown side. Doors were finally opened on the downtown side.
The Train was the 14:52 out of E 241. The train went BIE south of E 180 the cause was a Brake Pipe Rupture. This was a poorly handled by Control Center. The person at Control Center aked the T/O if he hit a signal and to check for stripe marks. He did that but no Stripe marks where found and the home signal was around the 9 car and the stop arm was down so Control was wrong the train never hit a signal. Then they tell the T/O to go back to his cab and move out. While the T/O head back to the front a T.S.S arrived and found a Brake Pipe Rupture around the 8 car. This made Control Center look dum. I mean they assumed this T/O hit a signal but never did.
As far as the Police they are called to almost any BIE.
That was the 14:28 E 241 St.
Dave,
Thanks for the info...
Do you know of they had any trouble isolating the car and moving the train out of there?
Marc
Life on nearly any railroad. Supervision always looking for what the man at the controls did first. Heaven forbid it could be a signal or equipmant, or track defect.Luckily it was a short trial in this case and the operator's innocence proven promptly.
Yup, that's right. Earlier, I had to work a 5 tripper on that god-forsaken Canarsie Line. I'd LOVE to meet the person who invented this torture and clock him/her over the head with my brake handle. Guess where my reverser would go?
Congradulations, that is what paying the dues are all about! In the 1988? contract, the TWU gave up the right for their say-so in picks and schedules. Management can write any work program they want without protest from the TWU. There are no rules about cab time within an eight hour day, standards on breaks between trips and you have a minimum of 20 minutes for a lunch break. Combine this with 1.12D and you can come in on your RDO to work another 5 trips. Hit Sonny Hall with that brake handle partner.
Back in the 1940s into the early 50s, they did run a sort of "express" service on the 14th St. line in rush hours. Trains terminating at Myrtle Ave. made all stops to 8th Ave. Manhattan. Trains to/from Rockaway Parkway and Lefferts Blvd. ran non-stop between Myrtle Ave. and Lorimer St. I guess that the spacing between trains was long enough so that it worked, since there was no way for the express trains to pass the locals.
-- Ed Sachs
Actually, they used the BMT Standards as the "L" express and the friskier MS as the "LL" locals. I've seen this mathematically explained with the speeds/headways etc. calculated.
wayne
I remember when I had to do 5 Trips on the No.7 Line. That was back in 1989 and never been on the No.7 since then.
Well, the good news is that next pick, most of the five trip jobs are eliminated. There are only three available on the late p.m shift. There were four jobs added to the p.m tour to accomodate surging ridership.
I hope you had a couple of Slant R40s to help ease your pain...
It's only a 38-minute trip (without delays) from end to end.
When I get the handle, I'll gladly trade places with you.
wayne
OH REALLY? After five months of doing five trips, you'd be waking up in the middle of the night in a cold sweat screaming out loud to no one "WHAT DO YOU MEAN THAT'S ME TO GO?!?"
NIMBYS TARGET AIRTRAIN
they may be doing us a favor
Peace,
ANDEE
"The suit, filed by South Eastern Queens Concerned Neighbors and the Committee for Better Transit, argues that construction on the
project — which will connect the airport with the Jamaica Center
subway and Long Island Rail Road Jamaica stations — is damaging
their homes and businesses, causing traffic jams and making their
neighborhoods noisier."
Is this a joke or what, that neighborhood can't get much worse then it is & the JFK Air Train doesn't have anything to do with it.
Traffic ... another joke ? The traffic is very bad on the Van Wyke, but what does that have to do with something running down the middle of the road ?
Mr t__:-(
So what else is new?
It seems that there are reports that some homeowners have seen cracks in the homes that weren't there prior to the construction of the Air Train project. So this is no joke. Also, all that highway traffic is now being diverted along the service road which has increased traffic next to their homes....
Not true. Most of the highway traffic is staying on the highway during the construction. I was out there looking at the work within the last week.
OTOH, it is true that the construction is clogging traffic on the highway.
The neighborhood couldn't be worse? I've walked around there, and it looks a lot better than some parts of Manhattan. Of course, I have to agree that the marginal impact of the El line in the middle of that humongous eyesore called the Van Wyke will be hard to notice. As for the effect on the traffic on the highway, that should end when the construction is finished. It looks like all the columns will be in place by the time we get a hard frost.
Considering the construction already done along the Van Wyck, it seems too late to stop the project now. And any LIRR Rockaway proposal would fire up a different set of NIMBYs.
>>>...any LIRR Rockaway proposal would fire up a different set of NIMBYs<<<
SO true
Peace,
ANDEE
Should I go out and buy a ticket to the Ozone Park Station yet??
LOL
What cracks me up is the part about them demanding the state use the abandoned LIRR Rokaway line instead of the new construction. Typical NIMBY attitude. Build it, but build it elsewhere. Perhaps the current NIMBY's should meet the NIMBY's that continiously kill off any idea of re-using the Rockaway Beach ROW.
(Perhaps the current NIMBY's should meet the NIMBY's that
continiously kill off any idea of re-using the Rockaway Beach ROW.)
Perhaps we should arm both camps and have them fight it out in the parking lot of Aquduct Racetrack. Whichever group completely exterminates the other wins.
As we know, the desire to avoid the whiter and more powerful NIMBYs of Rego Park is just part of the story. The need to serve the even whiter and more powerful people of Nassau and Suffolk County via transfer at Jamaica (in the even they choose to use it) is another part. The unspoken desire of the airlines and the Port Authority to avoid mixing the (once upon a time) exclusively affluent airport customers with the (in most of the U.S. but not here) predominantly poor and minority transit riders is another piece of the puzzle.
I'll give the multi-transfer option a chance. To me, the real outrage is the price for transit transfers.
The need to serve the even whiter and more powerful people of Nassau and Suffolk County
Like all those lily-white, 100% Caucasian types in Hempstead, Roosevelt, Wyandanch, Huntington Station, Uniondale, Mastic Beach, Brentwood, Gordon Heights, Central Islip, Flanders ....
>>>Like all those lily-white, 100% Caucasian types in Hempstead, Roosevelt, Wyandanch, Huntington Station, Uniondale, Mastic Beach, Brentwood, Gordon Heights, Central Islip, Flanders ....
AKA----WHITELANDIA
Peace,
ANDEE
>>>AKA----WHITELANDIA <<<
Uh-oh...Ron Kuby's in here! Feel free to vandalize at will, Ron will defend you!
www.forgotten-ny.com
LOL... yes I stole the phrase from him
Peace,
ANDEE
Like all those lily-white, 100% Caucasian types in Hempstead, Roosevelt, Wyandanch, Huntington Station, Uniondale, Mastic Beach, Brentwood, Gordon Heights, Central Islip, Flanders ....
AKA----WHITELANDIA
I had meant to be a bit sarcastic. All of those communities are heavily minority - almost 100% in the cases of Roosevelt, Wyandanch and Gordon Heights.
There is a perception among some city residents that Long Island is basically an all-white preserve. To the extent that ever was true, it certainly isn't true today.
You forgot New Castle.
Roosevelt: That is where Howard Stern is from. He always talk about the blacks moving in and the whites moving out......
3TM
(Like all those lily-white, 100% Caucasian types in Hempstead, Roosevelt, Wyandanch, Huntington Station, Uniondale, Mastic Beach, Brentwood, Gordon Heights, Central Islip, Flanders .... )
Somehow I doubt that the airlines and the Long Island polticians supported the Airtrain to make it easier for the people of Roosevelt to get to JFK. THOSE aren't the Long Islanders I was referring to.
Why all the carrying on about train noises? Do we have NIMBYism when these hotshot young bucks make noise with their hot cars? Or the thoughts of constant heavy vehicular traffic? But the worst racket that comes to my mind was when I was visiting a friend in Ozone Park quite regularly and a mile and more away from runways the sound of the jets blew your ears over and over.
As for the racial and upper crusty element my heart bleeds for them [haha] on either side of the fence. It always amuses me to hear the upper crust carry on about what "we" should do for one group or another, but please keep it a distance from me. Likewise hearing those who say they get stuck with things that they can't put in white areas.Imagine if the once poor Irish had a voice in stopping rail lines 100 or so years ago...we wouldn't have any rail lines!
[It always amuses me to hear the upper crust carry on about what "we"
should do for one group or another, but please keep it a distance from
me.]
Sounds like the attitude of the people in my old, Jewish (I don't mean to say anything bad about any Jews here on this board) school. The school encouraged giving money to funds that help black people, but having a number of black friends who lived in the "city" (or for that matter any friends who lived in the "city" and were not Jewish) generated suspiction. The students were not necessarily racist (they would treat suburban blacks and black jews with respect) as much as anti "city" as defined by inner city neighborhoods that were either poor or had no Jewish people.
And that above statement has nothing to do with rail or transit. Many students from my old school had never used transit. A number had used regional rail such as the Paoli R5 and the Reading mainlines (R3, R2, R5). Some had used the 44 bus which goes from the suburbs to Center City, and a few even used the northeast end of the 65. Even so, very few people would willingly use any other bus/rail line that they don't generally use even if it is the most convenient.
Sounds like the "Train-to-the-Plane" issue. When that was put together, it served no poor community along its route except the well-off residents of Howard Beach and the surrounding areas. The current plan does not stop in any poor neighborhoods along its route. As for the fare, we all know it will not be $1.50 each way, but more than that. Remember also that airline passengers are currently paying a surcharge for the plan to be built. Nassau and Suffolk residents, regardless of their race, ethnic or economic background, will not see any great impact on the traveling convenience. They are most likely going to still use the highways in some form or another to get the plane, because the "car" mentality is still a "big thing" in the suburaban mindset. As far as the Rego Park area, this is a very mix neighborhood, with a diverse ethnic background. Support can't be all that great, but trying to get homeowners along the abondons ROWs is like pulling more than just teeth. They literally don't want any city contruction projects right in their backyards and the possible noise and rail traffic there as well. The Van Wyke project is better in one way the it does not impede too heavly on local residents. If there is damage to local homeowners and loss of revenue to local merchants, there should be a special funding to help those folks out, and not be such a threat to their livelihood. In the end, the AIR Train is meant only to server customers who can pay the fare, which i think it will be around $5 each way which does not help airport workers trying to find a easier way to work. Maybe they should be given a special "TRANSITCHEK" ticket to help pay there costs per month as to reduce the use of automobiles by these workers. That would be the better plan than to keep the AIRTRAIN for just the "elite rider."
The idea of a 'train-to-the-plane' should be organized around a one-seat ride from the airport to the business district. Few people going on a vacation will use public transit to go to and from the airport. Think clearly about this: How much luggage are you carrying, how many children are with you, etc. Running it to Jamacia is a boondoggle in the worst sense. It should go directly to both Midtown and Wall St.
-Hank
"The idea of a 'train-to-the-plane' should be organized around a one-seat ride from the airport to the business district."
Agreed in general, but JFK is not New York's "business airport", LaGuardia is. Given the length of most flights from JFK, most travelers are commuting from their homes to and from JFK. (you don't spend a half day at the office if you're leaving on a 5 hour flight).
The 2 hour day trip flights go out of Newark and LGA.
Also, considering the length of flights from JFK most travelers -- business or not -- carry a fair amount of luggage.
Chuck
I received a query from a writer looking for maps and schedules of the trolley lines in New York City for around 1900 (pre subway). I gave them a list of the names of the trolley lines I could think of, but here at TMNY we have little in the way of schedules and maps for around 1900. What resources can I refer them to?
I can only hope this "writer" may have been Caleb Carr. I can't wait for the next in the Dr. Kreizler series. The Alienist and The Angel of Darkness being the first two. Angel...'s plot began with the sighting of a kidnapped child on an el train. I was hoping the next novel would be set a bit later and reference trolleys and/or the subway. Anyone with a fascination of late 19th early 20th century NYC history, and who likes a great yarn, should read his books.
Perhaps the ERA's Sprague Library? Try having him contact ERA at era@juno.com.
The Transit Museum archives may also be a good place to do some looking.
--Mark
There may be something in my home library on this. Give me some time, please - it may take a day or two.
Perhaps back copies of the NY Division Newsletter would help.
The following volume is available in the Queens Central Library (LI Div). It should help you.
Historic trolley guide to suburban electric lines of the New York metropolitan area : within a 50-mile radius of New York City, as of 1914. R 974.72 H
Strictly speaking, NYC did not have any trolley cars in 1900. They had street cars. There were no overhead wires on which to run a trolley. Also, they had very few of these. The first electrics did not go into service until 1898 (or was it 1900). They did have a vast cable car network.
By 1900, NYC was the 5 boroughs. Trolley cars were running
in the outer boroughs with overhead wire. In fact, trolley
service dates back to ca 1892 in Brooklyn. By 1900 I'd estimate
at least 50% of the old horsecar routes had been electrified
and many more new electric lines had been constructed.
By 1900, NYC was the 5 boroughs.
Strictly speaking, are you referring to "Greater New York" the official name for the 1898 consolidation? The term "NYC" still referred to its preconsolidation boundaries in 1900 - at least according to the contemporaneous literature I've read.
Yes, strictly speaking it is The Greater City of New York. It
may have been common usage in 1900 that "New York City" still
meant Manhattan. [Ah, but how about The Annexed Lands of The Bronx
which had been part of New York City for a few decades prior to
the 1898 unification, and the ca 1892 overhead wire ordinance of
Manhattan for whatever reason did not apply there]
While this may have been the lingo of the
day (and still is...in Queens and Brooklyn one still "goes into the
city"), are you aware of any official, legal distinction between
Greater New York and New York City in 1900, and if so, when did
that distinction officially disappear?
Getting back on topic, Brooklyn did, as I stated earlier, have
trolley service in 1892. The trolley era is considered to have
started in 1888. Manhattan had cable car routes starting in 1885.
These were converted to electrified conduit operation ca 1894/95.
To the best of my knowledge, other than possibly experimentals,
Manhattan never had any trolley lines (except for the northernmost
few blocks of several lines which crossed into The Bronx). If
Ray Crapo is reading he could probably provide more specifics.
Manhattan had cable car routes starting in 1885. These were converted to electrified conduit operation ca 1894/95.
I thought the Lenox Ave [street car] Line was electrified much later ca 1898/1900, as I'd mentioned in an earlier post.
I've seen 1894 or 1895 as the date of the Lenox Ave conversion
in several places.
According to George Hilton's opus The Cable Car in America, The Third Avenue Railway converted its cable lines to electricity in 1899.
The Metropolitan converted its cable lines in 1901, with the last Broadway car leaving the Battery at 8:27 PM May 25, 1901, ending street cable operations in New York.
Jeff H. - Your posting sent me into the library. The best reference regaring the lack of overhead electrification on Manhattan Island with the exceptions of the Bronx lines for short distances (Willis Avenue was a long line in Manhattan but had a plow pit) is Vincent Seyfried's "Third Avenue Railways System Roster of Equipment". He has all the cable to electrification dates in it and never once mentions overhead trolley wire, even on an interim basis. All of the conversions occured after the 1892 law anyway. I believe that your statement is quite correct.
Now, about "New York City", et. alia. My understanding is that New York City went out of existence in 1898 when it combined with the City of Brooklyn to form "The City of New York". This is the name that appears on every traffic summons and other legal document to this day. It may be possible that, except for some obscure legal or insurance purposes (like bus lines that still retain the titles of predecessor trolley lines to limit liability), there may really be no "New York City" at all! The R1's had "City of New York" on them and R1's always told the truth. However, if I have it right (and certainly may not), many Third Avenue Elevated cars had "New York City Transit System" on their letter Boards during the 1940's and 1950's. Do Wasons also tell the truth? Someone else out there may wish to comment on this and that would be appreciated. As far as the "Greater" appellation, I'll have to go back to the drawing boards on that one.
Hmmm ... after Unification, the combined IND, IRT and BMT were called the New York City Transit System, too ..... and that evolved into the New York City Transit Authority. So, legally speaking, shouldn't the TA's name have been the City of New York Transit Authority or even the Greater New York Transit Authority?
--Mark
R142 cars galore!
Subway cars with the Upside-Down Letter Syndrome
R29 #8660
"Grasmere I.R.T."?
The R74 train
And other transit pictures and oddities
All on my Transit Pictures 10 page:
http://nav.to/rmmarrero -> Express Train -> Transit Pictures 10
Does anybody know which line that infamous car chase took place under.
Read about it on this page, Subway Bibliography: Films, Documentaries, and Television on this website.
Under the West End Line (todays "B" train)
Peace,
ANDEE
Supposedly, one scene was shot in Ridgewood along the M line, but I haven't been able to pick it out.
The West End (B train) Line. However, the inaccuracy in the scene is that a train marked for the N (Sea Beach Line) is used in the infamous chase sequence. Hollywood blew it again!
Doug aka BMTman
Actually that isn't Hollywood's doing. You may notice that many scenes are not really at the station that it's supposed to be. In one instance I've already mentioned "Night Hawks" the beginning sequence the station said 174 St. but it wasn't at 174 St at all.That is common practice and you may notice it in other shows. So the N on the West End line is the same reason.
IIRC Don Harold told me years ago they do that intentionally so it isn't easy to plot a crime using a movie. I could have qouted wrong, its been many years. But that's how the TA wanted it.
On "Law and Order" they have had subway murders at the 106 & Bway station. Needless to say, though 106 is a large 2-way street, there is no station there.
Somewhere I read that the film's director wanted a "clean" set of cars
for that scene. The only cars available didn't carry a "B" sign at that tme, so it displayed an "N". I'm sure every transit buff picked up that error. Filming in the winter was tough, as many of the cars were usually dirty. Don't they wash them as much during the winter?
Chuck Greene
There are many subway 'legends' surrounding the filming of "The French Connection" and virtually every other suway involved movie. As for car washing, cars can be washed as long as the temp is not below 29 degrees F. (I suppose that's because of the acid we mix with the water) As for the large 'N', I doubt that there is any truth to that story. The changing of an end sign or roll is a matter of less than 1/2 hour so if it was an issue, it would have een addressed. More likely, the director wanted a colorful end sign in the shot and the N was gold while the B was black (at that time). As for greffiti free cars - I'm sure that the movie was shot prior to the real epidemic struck.
The R42 cars in the movie (#4572-4573 etc.) were part of the "N" group of R42's: #4550-4595. The "B"'s group of cars (which they shared, oddly enough, with the "A" and "AA") were #4596-4695. I don't think they used "B" cars and changed their roll signs.
wayne
That is correct. The chase sequence was filmed between January and March of 1971, and the graffiti epidemic took hold about a year later. There were some other gaffes, such as the train of R-32s directly above Gene Hackman's car just as that other vehicle smashes into it as he takes the turn from Stillwell Ave. to 86th Street (or attempts to, anyway).
OTOH, the original Pelham 1-2-3 was filmed during the epidemic itself, but there isn't a speck of graffiti anywhere on any car of any train. Well, almost - you can see some red substance splattered on the side of R-22 7339 as it leaves "28th St." after the train has been seized. The funny part is, that splotch wasn't there when the train first pulled in.
I think is was shot in 1971. The graffiti movement started at a later date did it not?
Clean??? wasn't the whole city on the verge of bankruptcy back then?
I doubt you could have found a clean piece of the city anywhere!!
What year did the fiscal bottom drop out for the city? Just wondering?
In 1971, the "graffiti movement" was just getting underway, at least in the subway. New York City's fiscal problems didn't become apparent until John Lindsay left office on January 1, 1974 (Abe Beame, his successor, had been Comptroller in Lindsay's second term and had warned of fiscal problems soon to come), and by 1975 they were at their worst.
David
>>>>Filming in the winter was tough, as many of the cars were usually
dirty. Don't they wash them as much during the winter? <<<
In those days the winters were colder and we got more snow, therefore, more salt would splash onto the windows along el lines. My theory...
www.forgotten-ny.com
IIRC, we got a fair amount of snow in 1970-71. The following two winters were milder, with a lot less snow.
There was a time that subway cars did not get washed. The only time they looked clean was when they got a paint job.
Does anyone have any idea when they first started washing cars?
The first car washer in the subway system opened at 207th Street Yard in 1960.
David
Do the tagged cars go through the same washing , or do they go through some other process??
Normally tagged cars are cleaned by hand before going through the mechanical wash.
When the R-1/9s started inching their way through the car washers for the first time, the gold "City of New York" lettering on their sides which had been obliterated for years became visible again. I remember seeing that lettering during the late 60s.
Are they still washing as much as when the graf. epidemic was at it's highest?
The goal is to wash a minimum of 70% of every car fleet every week. This means washing approximately 4,200 different cars at least once each week. I'm not sure what the rate was back in the 70s but there are more car washers in service than there were 25 years ago.
Incidently, for 5 extra points, in what month and year did the TA proclaim the fleet clean & graffiti free?
It was May 1989. A ceremony was set up involving some graffitied R-27s, the "official" last graffitied train. The ceremony happened, but almost all media outlets were covering the funeral of Board of Education Chancellor Richard Green, which happened to occur the same day.
When NYCT does something right, nobody notices :-)
David
Also, don't forget that during the window scenes, the train ws on the express track during the whole chase, but miraculously was on the local track when bypassing the stations.
"B" line, but using the "N" line's 1969-vintage R42 rolling stock.
Featured units: R42 #4572-4573, still in service.
wayne
Does anyone know the origin of the original town names in Queens, such as Flushing and Jamaica? I have seen information about the origins of many of the old town names in Brooklyn, but never of these names in Queens.
Jamica, Flushing, Long Island City, Middle Village
and you can tell where is queens an area is by the first 3 numbers of it zip code as each of the orignal towns has it own 3 number code, 113-- flushing, 114-- jamaica, etc
No, it's Jamaica, Flushing and Newtown. Long Island City was a city and had before been a part of Newtown.
Does anyone know the origin of the original town names in Queens, such as Flushing and Jamaica? I have seen information about the origins of many of the old town names in Brooklyn, but never of these names in Queens.
Flushing dates back to the days of the New Amsterdam colony, being the (Anglicized) name of a town in the Netherlands. Dunno about Jamaica.
Jamaica was named for the Jameco Indians (Native Americans) who inhabited the area before European settlement. Newtown was another "original" settlement, the name of which is now reflected in the odd-angled road which cuts its way through Queens, and was the westernmost part of an indian trail through Long Island, and in the creek that separates Breukelen from Queens County.
Check out Our Towns at LI History.com.
R-142A 7251-60 have arrived and are at Unionport Yard in the Bronx.
To sum up what's here this far: R-142 6301-30 (30 Cars from Bombardier) and R-142A 7211-60 (50 cars from Kawasaki) which give you a total of 80 cars. 80 down, 1000 to go!
-Stef
If your travels this weekend take you to the 2000 Fall Trolley Extravaganza in King of Prussia, PA, this weekend (Friday night and Saturday Sept 8 & 9), please stop by my table and say hello!
--Mark
Say hi to you in person? Surely you're joking Mr. Feinman.
Yes, Mr. Feinman will be there in person. I had the pleasure of meeting him a few years ago at the Trolley show. Are you coming. Mike?
I'll see you there if you come. I'll be at the show around 1:30
Chuck Greene
Say hi to you in person? Surely you're joking Mr. Feinman.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
What's wrong with that? You don't like socializing?
-Stef
I am sorry that I will not be able to attend. However, having met you in person in the past, I wish you much luck (&$$).
Peace,
ANDEE
Are there many subtalkers that are planning on attending this show?
Is it at the mall or nearby?
It is at the Holiday Inn which is supposed to be right next door to the mall.
There is info about the show at this site under "Upcoming Events"
Primarily a Train Dude question since I know he worked on them.
Is the side sign on/off control tied in to the H trainline?
I've observed that whenever the train crew turns off the
trainline HVAC the signs go dark.
Related question: over which trainline(s) is/are the digital
signal for the signs sent?
The digital information is sent over dedicated trainline wires on the electric portion (SS1 and SS2). On the litton plugs between cars there are 4 wires to carry the information from the A car SCU to the B car. The fluorescent lights in the side sign are tied tot he HVAC circuit so the signs will go dark when the HVAC momentary 'off' button is depressed. However, if you look at the sign, even with the fluorescent light off, the sign still displays the last message.
What digital information?
The information that allows each side sign to display the same message is sent trainline in the form of a digital signal from the controlling SCU (Sign Control Unit). The controlling SCU may be any of the SCUs on the tain depending on where the last command signal was entered.
Does one SCU control both car sets in a 8-car train, or are they seperate. I notice that the signs on the front and rear sections of R-46 trains are not always on the same "step" (they are out of sync with one another)
Also a question about "trainlines" in general: These are _control_ lines, not actual power lines to the various devices, right? With all of this information travelling through the couplers, how much maintenance is required to ensure positivfe connections for critical functions like train control?
I'll step in and answer your question, Dave. All of the trainlines
are control wires, not power carrying wires, with the exception of
the B1+ wire which puts all of the batteries on the train in parallel
(through limit resistors). From a digital logic standpoint, the
trainline signals have a fantastic noise margin: 0V logic "O" and
37.5V logic "1". However, some of these lines actually have to
supply a good deal of current. For example, the GS trainline
on GE cars is the return for a number of large contactors in
each group switch box. A couple of amps, worst case, per car, and
on a 10 car train, well......
The electric portions on the H2 couplers are fairly well-designed.
Each row has 13 pins and all of the pins on one side (left or right,
I forget which) are rigid while those on the other side push in
and rotate 1/4 turn, giving an automatic contact wipe action whenever
the coupling is made up. Nonetheless, moisture gets in there and
especially when trains stay coupled up for a long period of time,
resistance can build up. Now you see why the TA has fixated on
eliminating as many electric portions as possible.
I sometimes have to design systems that work in "harsh" emf areas, near to a 50kv rf igniter for short arc bulbs. Great lengths are taken in shielding for electronic systems, but they still take hits. If someone wants me to design them something "bulletproof" then I give them cam timers and relays. I've seen 5,6,12,24,48,120 volt relays and such, but never 37.5 --where did this odd voltage come from. Is it related to the 75v level in diesels that was discussed a while ago?
Railways historically used a 32 volt battery for control
and emergency lighting purposes. Where that voltage came
from I can't tell you. 37.5 volts is the nominal regulated
voltage of the motor-generator (or "static converter" on newer
cars). The batteries are float-charged from this bus voltage.
On a 4-car link there are 2 SCUs, one in each A car. Each SCU is supposed to control 5 discrete devices. They are the ODK - numbered 001 on the chain as well as the 4 side signs (numbered 002 - 005). Hence, the ODK controls one A car and one B car. In addition, the logic provides a 'master - slave' feature. Once a reverser is thrown on the train and the #1 or #2 wire is energized, this feature is activated. As such, once the reverser is thrown, the SCU where the route code is entered (let's say the C/R position), becomes the master SCU and the others become slaves. The only info sent over the trainline wires SS1 or SS2 is from the master SCU to the slaves. The master tells the slaves who is the master and what message to display. If the train operator subsequently changes the entry code, his SCU would take over control of the tain (peacefully) and the former master SCU would become a slave. Naturally a defective T/Line communication board in any SCU will affect normal operation.
So the master unit tells the slaves which route information to display, but the slaves can cycle through on their own time? "A hands off approach to management"
Sort of. The time each line of text is displayed is preset by the system. Therefore, a message in any car will be displayed for the same lingth of time as in any other car. However, the SCUs may not be displaying the same line of text at exactly the same instant. They can be out of sync by a few seconds due to the way the master/slave interface works.
That's excatly what I was wondering aboot. thanx.
In my previous post I used the term ODK where I should have used SCU. That correction is underlined. ODK is the keypad in the cab that the crews use to enter the route codes.
On a 4-car link there are 2 SCUs, one in each A car. Each SCU is supposed to control 5 discrete devices. They are the ODK - numbered 001 on the chain as well as the 4 side signs (numbered 002 - 005). Hence, the SCU controls one A car and one B car. In addition, the logic provides a 'master - slave' feature. Once a reverser is thrown on the train and the #1 or #2 wire is energized, this feature is activated. As such, once the reverser is thrown, the SCU where the route code is entered (let's say the C/R position), becomes the master SCU and the others become slaves. The only info sent over the trainline wires SS1 or SS2 is from the master SCU to the slaves. The master tells the slaves who is the master and what message to display. If the train operator subsequently changes the entry code, his SCU would take over control of the tain (peacefully) and the former master SCU would become a slave. Naturally a defective T/Line communication board in any SCU will affect normal operation.
I digress, constantly, so forgive me.
I often wonder about how the PA audio is passed through the coupler. I assume that the signal travels on a shielded cable of some sort. Is there special provision made at the joining point to carry the shielding over? (like a coax connector) or are the lines just broken out onto individual pins like eveything else. Is the cable shield just tied to the car frame? When I'm on R-40's and the EMF interference from the choppers* is deafening, I mull this over.
* I assume they use "choppers"
Altogether, I think I have much to much time on my hands.
On "classic" SMEE cars the PA audio signal is capacitively
coupled to the L1 (main lighting) trainline, with ground (chassis)
as the reference. Nothing special happens at the coupler. I
don't recall if the L1 trainline is shielded as it runs from junction
box to junction box.
On cars delivered with cab intercoms the PA audio signal is broken
out onto separate trainlines and I _believe_ it is balanced.
No cars have choppers. They have "static converters" which are
switchmode power supplies to convert 600VDC to 37.5 VDC. I
don't have a schematic handy and I don't recall exactly what
type of switchmode supply is used. The converters operate
at a frequency which is audible (Train Dude mentioned the
frequency once) and of course the ripple gets ALL OVER the B+
supply despite generous filtering.
I've used AC inverter motor drives that had a carrier frequency of 5kHz, and in bad-ground situations, there would be 5k screaming out of the audio systems. Well maybe not 'screaming' writer's embellishment. I guess it was the client that would do the screaming!
So all cars up to the R-68 use cam control and resistor grids?
I don't suppose there are any books that cover traction power in detail, are there?
All cars with the exception of R110, R142 and 10 modified R-38s
use conventional electromechanical control with "grid" resistors
and DC motors. The phrase "cam control" is a trademark of
Westinghouse (or whatever company they are now) even though it is
descriptive of both the WH system and the GE system. The latter
is called SCM (Static Cam Magnetic) control.
I am not aware of any books still in print that discuss conventional
traction power control systems. The TA has some internal training
documents.
Sorry Train Dude but your last statement is incorrect. When the HVAC is turned off, the entire sign turns off as well. If you indeed saw that happen, then that sign was defective. And as you well know, there are a whole lot of defective items in the subway.
You are correct. The 5V power supply for the signs was originally connected to the T/L relay. There were several cars that were modified for technical reasons, however and these cars do have 2 B+ sources for the side signs.
Thanks for your quick response!
Begs the obvious and non-obvious questions:
1) Why was the backlight tied into the H trainline instead of L1?
For that matter, why is there any trainline control of the
backlight?
2) Are SS1/SS2 the same trainlines that were once used for the
automatic mechanical side roll sign control?
I was not part of the engineering decisions that were made related to the R-46 overhaul. The decision to tie the side Signs to the trainline relay was made because in the case where the system locked up and had to be 're-booted', this seemed to be a convenient way for the operator to do it.
As for the SS1 & SS2 T/Line wires, I'm not sure if they are the same although I suspect so. Remember that the electric portions were changed from side mounted Walton to underslung NYAB during overhaul. The T/Line wires are likely the same though. By the time I started, the Identra System was not in use.
OK, thanks for the tech discussion. Even though it looks like
no one else is interested, several people have told me "offline"
that they like to read these little exchanges on light bulbs,
field shunts, etc., so we're doing a public service :)
And the non-tech angle behind this: when I see the signs go
dark, that tells me the crew has turned off the HVAC trainline.
Now, correct me if I'm wrong, but other than smoke conditions (not
the case here) the system is supposed to be left on, right?
I would assume that it is being turned off because one of the
crew is too cold.
Most of the time if the signs are off, so is the HVAC. However the SMB circuit-breaker can also turn off the side signs(and the sign "keyboard" in the cab) without having to touch the HVAC.
Usually,the crew will not activate the HVAC momentary unless ordered to because of a 'tunnel smoke condition'. Normally, the crew will turn off the #1 end blower in their car. Of course this drops out the BFC (blower fan contactor) and shuts down the entire #1 end AC (the hell with the customers?). There is a circuit breaker called the SMB which shuts off the display info. but only works on the individual car. If the SMB in the A car drops out, the B car will continue to display the last commanded message. In reality, the only way to turnoff the entire system is with the HVAC momentary except on some modified cars.
As for the tech subjects, I love discussing them over the inane rantings of our younger and/or more politically un-enlightened members. I wish more had something positive to add in this area. I find it more interesting, by far.
As for the tech subjects, I love discussing them over the inane rantings of our younger and/or more politically un-enlightened members. I wish more had something positive to add in this area. I find it more interesting, by far.
It's much appreciated on this end, too! I don't particularly care for ultimate proofs that two people can post messages while riding R-142/R-9 hybrids arguing over something else equally unimportant. Glad you decided to stay around.
Mark
Thank you, Train Dude, Jeff H., etc. Reading about the technical operation of the system for those who really know is by far the best feature of SubTalk, in my opinion. It makes railfanning a whole lot more interesting when you understand what's going on.
Amen!
The reason I turn off the #1 end A/C when I operate is so I won't get sick. Most of the A/C vents in the cabs have been vandalized by other T/O's and C/R's so the vents won't open or close properly. I cannot have direct contact with the A/C blowing directly on me for 90 minutes.
I understand the problem outlined by this Train Operator, but it's important to remember that the HVAC is there primarily for the comfort of the riders; crew comfort is secondary. If there's a problem with the HVAC in the cab, the Train Operator or the Conductor should report it so that Car Equipment can fix it. (And no, I'm not a Train Operator or a Conductor, but I'm friends with several and don't want to see any of them get sick.)
David
Car equipment(CED) does not like to fix things unless it is urgent such as broken glass, double door cutout, etc. HVAC problems in the cabs do not get fixed until inspection time. Ask your friends and they'll tell you the same.
As far as passenger comfort over the crew's, remember that passengers have 10 cars to choose from to ride in while a T/O only has one. To be blunt; If I have to choose between the comfort of the passengers and my health, I could give a rats ass about the passengers. If you were in my shoes, I'm sure your feelings would be likewise. I don't like to act like this but if CED were to fix things more often, there would be no need for any of this.
You mentioned earlier in this thread that "Most of the A/C vents in the
cabs have been vandalized by other T/O's and C/R's so the vents won't open or close properly." Since you infer that know who is committing these crimes, why don't you turn them in, assist in their prosecution, and ensure that they are incarcerated and no longer employed by the TA rather than continuing to vandalize their employer's property. Maybe then the TA will be able to hire honest people rather than crooks.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I don't know exactly who is doing the vandalism. All I know is that things don't work the way that they are supposed to. I've written down defects on the car defect sheet only to see that the problem remains MONTHS later. Things have gotten so bad with defects on the J line that the J/M/Z line superintendent has sent out a joint memo with the TWU (how often do you see that) asking that all employees fill out the car defect sheet when something is not working properly.The East New York barn does not repair anything unless it's ready to fall off. That's why ENYD is the busiest yard in the system when it comes to making swings. We always have to bury bad cars into the middle of the consist instead of CED fixing it.
I'm one of those guys who turns them back on when I find them off! I think the cabs are generally hot. Generally, the ceiling vents are of no help. On the R32's I have to keep the window open a crack and my cab door clamped open a bit for air circulation. I can't stand it when a passenger stands in the opening which blocks my cross ventilation. The R46, it's a shame. Vitrually 100% of the motormen, as any SubTalker knows, have to shoe slipper the cab door open. Don't know about the 44's. Have avoided taking one down the road for 15 years! R68/68A: the good a/c in the cab is the only good thing I can say about the cars. That uncomfortable motormans seat make my overall opinion of the cars unfavorable. A selfish motorman who turns off the HVAC is screwing his/her passengers. You just killed 50% of your cooling capacity, you are making the #2 end work harder and it may not be able to cool the car. These cars get hot even in the winter with all that body heat, the crowds and winter coats being worn. A passenger will get sick from a hot car, not a cold one! Yes. I turn them back on even in February! In the winter, particularly on the R40/42's on the J/L/M/Z, the cold air comes in thru the hinges and sides of the cab door. Have a roll of tape in you bag and use it in the cold spots so the passengers don't have to be hot underground in a crowded car.
The circulation in the R-46 is poor because there are no vents in the door to permit the cool air to circulate. Hence the need for shoe slippers. The R-68/68A doors have generous venting.
As for vandalism, several years ago we did catch a C/R with 216 horn buttons from R-46 consoles, in his locker
>>>As for vandalism, several years ago we did catch a C/R with 216 horn buttons from R-46 consoles, in his locker <<<
What dis he plan to do with them? Respond to an RFP and sell them back to the TA?
Peace,
ANDEE
He never did say. He was disciplined for his acts. As his punishment,he was 'returned to his pre-employment status.'
So he was sacked in other words.
Yes he was terminated but in fairness, that was back in 1993.
But, why on Earth was he swiping all those horn buttons for? 1 or 2, maybe, but 239?
That reminds me of the story of the foamite railfan who swiped a broken globe valve from a steam locomptive that was in the process of being restored. Strange.
I don't have that kind of insight into peoples' darker side. However, without a horn button on the operating car, the train would be removed from service due to an inoperative horn.
(These cars get hot even in the winter with all that body heat, the crowds and winter coats being worn. A passenger will get sick from a hot car, not a cold one!)
You've just hit on my worst problem with riding the subway. I get hot and uncomfortable pretty quickly. I avoided, hot crowded bars and parties in my youth. In the winter, when I go into a store even for a few mintues I take the coat off. So that heat is of no benefit for me. In a crowded car, it's a killer. It's only good for warming up the car to 55 degrees or so when it starts its run outside on a very cold day.
Heat in a NYCT subway car only comes on when the internal air is below 59 degrees. AC comes on above 71 degrees. between the two, you are on your own.
My father worked for NBC-TV in New York. He tells the story of how cold it was in the studios when they installed more efficient lighting that gave off less heat. He complained to maintenance about the cold, but they said that the A/C had to be kept on for the new computerized equipment.
One day he went up to look at this special fancy equimpent, and found that the crews in that room were so cold that they had covered the A/C openings with cardboard. He immedietly called maintenance, and shortly thereafter, the a/c was ducted into the eqipment racks that needed the cooling, and every one else was happy once again.
So I understand your suffering from over cooled (and or poluted inside air) and the problem with damaged equipment. Perhaps you could carry with you a cardboard or metal plate to block the offending air flow, but leave the a/c to the rest of the car.
Elias
Most of the time, I stuff newspaper into the vent which usually does the trick, but thats only on R44's and R46's. On the R32,38,40 and 42 equipment,the A/C seeps through the cracks on both sides of the cab door turning the cab into an icebox. I've tried using duct tape but if you have to open the door for any reason(passenger questions, supervisors, etc.) the tape is then ruined and I would not have time to re-apply the tape. The ONLY alternative is to turn off the #1 A/C.
I had a similar experience when I worked in our company's repair shop. It was air conditioned, but there was a small back room which was not. Our electronics tech worked there, and she was constantly complaining about being uncomfortably warm (never mind the fact she always wore a sweatshirt). She would crank up the A/C hoping it would alleviate things, but it didn't help, and left us freezing our tails off.
I went Hanging out with a Motorman from the 7 line today. The Train that came in after his, said 111th street corona. The Train came into main street on Track M, but the sign didn't say Main street Flushing, it said 111th street corona. Another inbound arriving Train came in displaying Willets pt Shea stdum. My Friend (the T/O) says they are all suffering from AM Disease
On the p.m. tour, if needed, a Willets Pt dropout will be sent to Main St.
...even saw this at 149-GC on the 2 line..
I don't recall seeing this before. The “Hot Railnews” section of
Railfan and Railroad quotes a Lincoln (Nebraska) Journal Star article of Aug 23 that says that Kawasaki, which has a plant in Lincoln that has built motorcycles, Jet-Skis, and other stuff since 1974, is building a new plant to open there in 2002 that will turn out 200 light rail cars/year.
for who? to my knowledge only SEPTIC uses kawasakis...
The article said that "Kawasaki has produced light-rail, commuter and passenger cars for New York, Philadelphia, Boston, and Chicago". It wasn't just mentioning LRV's.
True, but it mentioned only LRV's for the Lincoln plant.
which brings me to my original point - is SEPTIC planning a major service expansion? 200 LRVs a year. I know the Semens plant in Sacramento can top 365 (the "one a day" mantra is something they brag about)
[...the Siemens plant in Sacramento can top 365 (the "one a day" mantra is something they brag about)]
The article referred to Kawasaki's 200 per year as "one a day". I guess they have 60 holidays, unless it was a typo.
Perhaps you read where the Roman Catholic heirarchy said that only Catholicism is the way to salvation and that others are off the mark and might not "make it". To my Jewish, Protestant, Muslim, and Buddhist colleagues on this site please accept my embarrassment and apologies for what my church has come out with. My wife is not Catholic and she will get into Heaven easier than I will. I hate it when one faith sounds off as they have all the answers and I know many of you are aware of what the Catholic Church said. It really bugs me. My daughter's boyfriend is Jewish and most of my friends are not Catholic. Religion is a personal thing and no one faith should claim to have the answers. We can learn from all. As a history teacher I know the meaning of religious freedom and choice.
It pains me this happened and I had to vent my wrath at what I consider to be prejudice and narrow minded thinking.
Why not go to another Board to post this material? What you say has nothing to do with what this Board is about. I'm an embarrassed railfan.
As important as the topic may be, I can't see the relevance of *that* kind of discussion to *this* message board. No need to start the 30 Years' War all over again . . . .
Perhaps you read where the Roman Catholic heirarchy said that only Catholicism is the way to salvation and that others are off the mark and might not "make it". To my Jewish, Protestant, Muslim, and Buddhist colleagues on this site please accept my embarrassment and apologies for what my church has come out with. My wife is not Catholic and she will get into Heaven easier than I will. I hate it when one faith sounds off as they have all the answers and I know many of you are aware of what the Catholic Church said. It really bugs me.
You have no need to apologize. Unless I'm very mistaken, just about every religion says that it's the only true one, and that all other religions are wrong. Catholicism is anything but unique in that regard.
As a Practicing Roman Catholic, let me say the following:
1. Rome is very conservative, and Cardinal Ratzinger is in lockstep with John Paul II. The Polish church is among the most conservative of all Roman Catholics, and that's where the Pope hails from.
2. God, in His infinate Wisdom and Mercy, has never spoken recently out loud as to who gets saved and who doesn't.
3. This is a Subway and Rail Transit Board. Discussion of Religion in any form is about as off-topic as you can get. Lets STOP this here and now!!!
Dan, you are right. I brought it up and am sorry I did. But it did upset my sense of fair play and I had to let some steam out. Back to riding the Sea Beach and other trains.
Considering that it has probably been a while since the Pope consulted you on church policy, I think that your feelings of guilt and embarrassement were misplaced. In any event, if you can't vent at your friends once in a while, . . .
i was waiting at 14th street on the east side irt around 11:35 this morning, waiting for 7211-7220 to come in... as it approached the station, i noticed a rather large rat running for cover on the roadbed... what was unusual about the rat was that it had a flashing message board attached to its body that displayed the following message: hey paul...do not get on this train... wait for the next train
i did what the flashing message said... as soon as the new train pulled out, another 5 car set of r-142's pulled in, tooting its horn indicating that it wasn't going to stop... as it got closer, i noticed that officer joe bolton was riding in the cab with the motorman... when he spotted me, he instructed the motorman to stop and pick me up... i got in and noticed that i was in car 7251...
i asked officer joe: "what was going on?"
officer joe asked me: " have you done all your homework for monday?"
i answered: " sure, officer joe, i always do my homework first, so i'll have the rest of the weekend free."
officer joe said: " good going paul... well, after the recent trouble with the doors and brakes on the new cars, we decided to rig up a car that mixes the good old technology with the new technology... see if you can tell what we did...then i want you to go tell all the boys and girls on subtalk what you heard today...meanwhile, i've got to get ready for the next commercial break...
blended technology
heypaul......
My SOUNDCARD is DEAD, and I haven't bothered to replace it yet.
Maybe if you shout loud enough, we will be able to hear it in NORTH DAKOTA!
Elias
for elias and others with sound card impaired computers.... i tried mixing the sounds of an r1/9 coming to a stop and the sounds of its doors opening with the new cars automated station announcements... it really didn't come out that great, but it was fun and a challenge trying to do it...
I'm sorry I couldn't hear it either.
That's excellent, it's only marred by the stupid Pagetalk ad at the end.
Yahoo has a service that creates wavs and it has no ads, except the problem is that it's long distance.
thanks for the compliment about the blending of the r9 sound with the r-142 sound... i really didn't have the patience to try to find an r9 station stop that matched the r-142 annoucements... i was mixing the sounds in a very crude way... i put the tapes into 2 separate walkmans, and took the electrical audio outputs and fed each into one input of a boom box cassette recorder... i got a little appreciation for how much work it takes to mix and edit tape... the pagetalk blurb is a drag, but they do provide a free service, so i guess i owe them one...
09/08/2000
I've received E-mails as well as requests in reference to purchasing the NYC Subways Calendar by mail. For those of you who are repeat mail order customers, you may remember that in the beginning postcards were mailed to announce a new calendar. Well at 20 cents a pop plus the cost of the full color postcard, it was decided to drop the postcard idea and tape full page reminders in the October window as a means of ordering the new edition and saving some money.
Since then, I started a new tradition of enclosing a free postcard with every calendar purchased for those of you who are collectors. My idea of saying thanks and enclosing a free (yes free) keep sake. The postcard since the beginning always featured the same image as on the cover minus the calendar "title". I received word that from the manufacturer that the postcards will go to press on Sept.15th. I apologize for running late on this.
So, if any of you out there wish to order a copy, please use my e-mail and I'll e-mail you back instructions. Yes, the postcard is the same image as the front cover....R-142A's on the Dyre test track surrounded by clean snow! I'll mail you a postcard in an envelope when they become available. The NYC Transit Museum will also carry these postcards, but we're looking at October. Two new releases will accompany the R-142A postcard. Available at the museum only.
Once again, please use my e-mail only for instructions as well as questions about this. We need to conserve space on this board for the ongoing World War III between the west and east coast......just kidding!
Regards,
Bill "Newkirk" Mangahas
Every once in a while someone posts about the original movie King Kong and its scenes of the Avenue of the Americas Sixth Av El. So I figure I should mention its on tonight at 10:30PM (2230 hours) on the AMC (American Movie Classics) channel on cable. (Channel 43 on Royal Long Island and NYC if I'm not mistaken
I still say the 1976 version was better with King Kong bashing that el in Queens. Everything was better in the 70's.
I just saw King Kong, 1933 version, tonight on TV. He killed a T-Rex, a giant bird, a giant snake, then fell off the Empire State Building. I felt sorry for the beast. Why couldn't they just leave the beast alone.
[Why couldn't they just leave the beast alone.]
Because he was different. A perverse element of human nature is to punish those who are different.
I've seen King Kong more than any other movie - must be up to 200 times now (including tonight!) Channel 9 used to run it several times a year back in the '50's and '60's on Million Dollar Movie, when it would be on every day for a week. I still love those El shots.
Are New Yorkers with the recalled Firestone tires on their cars leaving their cars at home and flocking to the subways for transportaion?
If the outlook is as grim as it is shown on TV the subways should be getting a lot of new riders.
Are New Yorkers with the recalled Firestone tires on their cars leaving their cars at home and flocking to the subways for transportaion?
If the outlook is as grim as it is shown on TV the subways should be getting a lot of new riders.
I would suspect that any increased ridership is very modest. While I don't know what the official registration figures are like, it's my impression that Explorers aren't terribly popular in NYC. They're a bit bulky when it comes to finding on-street parking spaces, many parking garages charge extra for SUV's, and I would imagine that insurance rates would be exhorbitant. Besides, there's just something suburban-ish about Explorers and other SUV's.
If the tire fiasco has produced any ridership increases, it's probably been on commuter trains, as suburbanites heading into the city decide against driving.
BTW - my Rodeo has the same size tire as those involved in this recall. Although they're not the same style, I have become paranoid about tire damage - if one has to be replaced, it won't be fun trying to find one!
I remember a SUV thread some months ago from which I got the impression they were popular in the city. It's been so many years since I have been up there that I don't know what residents are driving.
There are people here in Penna that are panicing just because the tires on their vehicles are Firestone. It doesn't seem to matter to them that they have different style and size tires. They just see the name Firestone, and feel they they have to get rid of them.
It is a sad situation because Firestone for many, many years was a very popular and high quality tire, and I imagine that this crisis will result in the name's demise!
FYI, Firestone was an American company that in the 70's released a batch of 14 million defective tires and then had to recall them. This bankrupted Firestone and they were bought by the evil Japanesse company Bridgestone. The problem then as now was a tred seperation. Air would bubble up in between the layers and caused blowouts or poor handling. My grandad's 1974 Ford LTC had these and he never heeded the recal. We borrowed the car on the way down to North Carolina and a bubble formed in the tred causing the tire to buonce up and down. After ppl in other cars started to point at us we pulled over and got a new tire. Later we replaced the set, but forgot about the spare which blew out while my mom was driving on the way to work (no accident though)
Firestone has had major quality problems with its tires for years, as has its current parent Bridgestone. Bead failure problems on bias ply tires in the early '70s (I had that problem - and switched permanently to Michelins), the infamous Firestone 500 radials of the mid 1970s (tread separation), the problems with their replacement 721 series around 1980 (sidewall failure), Bridgestone's tread failure problems in several series of tires around 1988-89 (chunks of tread rubber would crack off, leading to failure), not to mention the pre-sale recall of Bridgestone's Potenza high-performance tire (branded with a 140+ mph speed rating after it had failed certification tests for 90 mph) back around 1992 or so (at least those tires never made it to the public). I'm not a lawyer, but on the surface it seems to me that they are both criminally and civilly liable for their actions this time around; assuming that to be the case, they should be put out of business.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
There was a time that Firestone had one of the best reputations in the tire industry. My dad bought a brand new 1931 Chevrolet and drove it in Brooklyn as the family car until 1954 (23 years). He would not even consider using anything but Firestone tires. Most people put their cars in storage during WWII and rode the trains and trolleys. After the war the most popular tire size was 600-16, and we really had to shop around to find our tire size which was 475-500-19. When we found the right tire, it had better be Firestone or he would not buy it.
I bought my first car in 1958 (a used 56 Chevy 2-door hardtop, and yes, I wish I had it back). The tires were not too good, so naturally I was expected to go out and buy a brand new set of Firestones. Being a good son, I did just that; they served me well, and were still on the car when I traded it.
>>> I bought my first car in 1958 (a used 56 Chevy 2-door hardtop, and yes, I wish I had it back). The tires were not too good, so naturally I was expected to go out and buy a brand new set of Firestones <<<
Karl;
It is amazing how the passage of time makes the "good old days" seem so much better than they were. In the ‘50s Firestone and all the other American tire manufacturers were making bias ply tires, and you really felt lucky if you got 20,000 miles of tire life. In 1955, U. S. Royal came out with a particularly bad run of tires, which drove the company to the edge of bankruptcy and resulted in a name change to Uniroyal. We had a family 1955 Chevrolet with U. S. Royal tires as original equipment. One day in 1956 I came out of the house to find a flat tire. I changed to the spare and drove to a service station about two blocks away to get the tire fixed. While sitting in the service station, the other three tires went flat. No punctures, just the sidewalls suddenly leaking.
Just as the American car manufacturers did not take the invasion of Volkswagens and other small foreign cars seriously, and had the attitude that Americans would buy whatever they provided, the tire manufacturers were late to convert to radial tires from bias ply tires, and when they did convert they were not as good at making the radial tires as the foreign competition because of lack of R & D and had to play catch up. Pretty soon consumers began to look to the foreign brands whenever they wanted quality tires.
Tom
Sadly the auto manufacturers themselves went thru the same thing. My feelings were that quality started to slip in the late '50's and by the 70's the Big Three should have been ashamed to put their name on most of their products. Ioccoca saved Chyrsler [with US gov't loans] but basically it was the Jap car builders that forced the US firms to get off their rears and go back to quality or else die. And it wasn't because the Jap. cars were smaller, US builders offered them in the early 60's and they were never that popular..after all gas was "cheap" and big was part of being American. Nowadays I have as much faith in American cars as I did in the 50's, thanks to competition, and an offer of a vehicle that wasn't meant to fall apart forced American quality to return.
US builders offered them in the early 60's and they were never that popular..after all gas was "cheap" and big was part of being American.
It seems with that 6 upside-down, things repeated themselves.
question about tires remember that paris derailment or tire blowout??
the subway train flipped on its side !! why did this this happen??
The Paris derailment of 2 weeks ago occurred on line 13 (I believe) which is a steel wheeled line
Peace,
ANDEE
[re competition from Japanese cars]
What's really funny is the way that national barriers seem to have blurred in the auto industry. Some GM and Ford cars are actually built in Canada or Mexico yet, in the industry's peculiar logic, are considered American. On the other hand, a significant percentage of the foreign nameplate cars are now built at US assembly plants. And the component parts come from just about everywhere.
My Isuzu Rodeo is a real mongrel when it comes to its origins. Isuzu is a Japanese company, in which GM has a large ownership stake. The Rodeo is built at a plant in Lafayette, Indiana which is a joint venture between Isuzu (and hence GM) and Subaru. Among the vehicles built at the plant is the Honda Passport, a rebaged Rodeo. As a result, you have four companies - Isuzu, GM, Subaru and Honda - involved in a single plant.
Not actually the industry's logic, but Congress. The industrialization of North America has long considered anything built in the US or Canada as 'American Made' Oddly, Canada does not. There was a law passed a few years ago that resulted in parts content labeling of automobiles, with final assembly point, major components listed (engine/transmission) and a percentage of parts from other contries listed as well. In this age of Cadillacs being built in Germany, Nissans in Tennesee, Fords and Dodges in Mexico, Pontiacs in Korea (the late early 90's 'LeMans') and Chevrolets in Japan, the automotive industry is truly a world industry, and even the car magazines are recognizing it, eliminating import catagories for 'car of the year' and such. Hell, Ford practically owns Mazda, and likewise for Daimler/Chysler and Mitsubishi (in which Chrysler had a share well before their merger with Daimler-Benz)
-Hank
Maybe 3 or 4 years ago Trains Magazine had an article which included the notation of every train passing through a particular spot in Kansas during a 24 hour period. One of them was the daily train of Japanese steel destined for a Chrysler plant in Ohio.
I think that would be the Diamond-Star plant, which produced both the Plymoth Laser and Misubishi Eclipse. It was a badge-engineering job, same car, same mechanicals, slightly different bodywork. Same as GM has been doing for decades with Chevy, Buick, and Pontiac.
-Hank
Dude, 70's cars rock. I love 70's cars. We put 280,000 miles on our 1974 Ford LTD before we disided to get a new car and our 72 mustang went 350K before it fell appart. Today's cars get like 100k then you send them down to the plactics place to be recycled. Don't you miss not having to worry about emmissions, a full sized spare, being able to power up hills, the ability to fix your car yourself, no stupid computers, STEEL, the roomyness of a pullman on the road, etc. The old TV show Hawaii Five-0 has monster 70's cars galore. If stupid Carter has gotten his act together to support the Shah gas could still be at 75 cents a gallon.
[70's cars] Don't you miss not having to worry about emmissions, a full sized spare, being able to power up hills, the ability to fix your car yourself, no stupid computers, STEEL, the roomyness of a pullman on the road, etc.
Can't do much about emissions, repairs and computers, but if you want full-sized spares, powerful motors, strong steel construction and roominess, there's a useful if politically incorrect solution - get a SUV.
The spirt of the 70's lives strong in their breed.
I can't believe anyone would say they preferred the cars of the 1970s.
I remeber the winter of 1994, one of the coldest of the century. My Plymouth Horizon (the cheapest car then on the market) with 90,000 miles was left buried under snow drifts more more than a month. I got in, and it started right up, and its front wheel drive allowed me to jump over a one foot high plowed snow/icebank. A 1970s car would needed a tow.
Saturn has a full size spare.
Saturn's full-sized tires are donuts for OTHER cars. I looked at one recently with the thought of buying one. Too many things were extras, such as A/C and ABS (Both of which I considered must-haves)
-Hank
You got lucky with the snow. I have talked w/ many a tow-truck driver who regailed me with stories of how little front wheel drive cars would get stuck in the snow drifts the plow trucks leave accross side streets. The front wheels would get stuck in the snow and they didn't have enough power to get through. Old rear wheel drive cars like our LTD could just blast right through the drife w/ the wheels providing traction on the pre-drift road. BTW there is a simple upgrade that can make RWD just as good as FrWD (if you believe all the hoop-la). They are called tungston studded snow tires and its a black eye on our great country that they are illegal in most places. I found a pair in a storage room here at school and I was going to steal them, but someone else got to them first. Nothing said "traction" more than when concrete highways would get conastoga ruts ridden into them. (Ex. Rt 22 in Allentown PA).
[BTW there is a simple upgrade that can make RWD just as
good as FrWD]
Drive in reverse.
LOL, I remember when a friend's friend got stuck in the snow w/ her FrWD car because she pulled into the snowy driveway and it ice-i-fyed over night. She had to back out with the resulting lack of traction.
Oregon has got to have the worst drivers when it comes to driving in the snow.....1/16 th of an inch and the schools get closed....
Looks like they're tied with Baltimore, which panics when flurries fall fro more than 15 minutes. People bail out of offices early, the roads are choked, and the schools close early in the counties.
The TV stations send reporters to any salt depot in the area for standups.
This is a metro area where the road crews attack snow like it's the Viet Cong. Salt is liberally spread on major routes. After it's all over there are little piles of salt all over the place. Car washes do gangbusters.
Major storms shut the place down for 2 or 3 days. The bus system folds up, but the Subway and Light Rail keep right on going.
Denver is similar. CDOT hits the panic button whenever it starts snowing and starts dumping gravel everywhere. Cracked windshields are commonplace out here; my Jeep is on its fifth windshield, and it's cracked. I've given up trying to replace it. People out here find it difficult to drive in the rain, let alone snow.
At least in CO they have good reason to overreact.
-Hank
Haven't noticed much of it in NoDak but Montana was the land of cracked or broken windshields. But I only lost 2 in 22 years there.
Before they paved the road by our house in North Carolina (eight or nine years ago now) we would average one broken windshield every six months (at the time we had three cars). Since they paved it we've only had one break, and that was the result of debris falling from an overpass under construction on I-95 between Petersburg and Richmond.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I will say this much: they've gone easy on the gravel dumping on I-25 during the last few winters, opting instead for magnesium chloride. A few years ago, we experienced a weather pattern in which we'd get a few inches of snow, and CDOT would dump a few million tons of gravel. A week or so later, this scenario would repeat itself. This went on all winter long, it seemed. Then a comment was made that Denver's "brown cloud" was noticeably worse. Well, duh....
I will say this much: they've gone easy on the gravel dumping on I-25 during the last few winters, opting instead for magnesium chloride. A few years ago, we experienced a weather pattern in which we'd get a few inches of snow, and CDOT would dump a few million tons of gravel. A week or so later, this scenario would repeat itself. This went on all winter long, it seemed. Then a comment was made that Denver's "brown cloud" was noticeably worse. Well, duh....
Then there was Jasper McLevy, mayor of Bridgeport, Connecticut during the 1930's. He served as a Socialist, not because he had any interest in Socialist ideas, but solely because that had been the only party without a preselected nominee.
Anyway, McLevy became famous for imposing extreme fiscal discipline on a formerly spendthrift city government, slashing taxes and spending with a meat-ax approach.* But then, after a heavy snowstorm, there was no money in the budget to plow the streets. People asked McLevy to free up some funds on an emergency basis. His reply?
God put the snow here, and God can take it away.
* = I wonder if some clone-able DNA could be extracted from his remains ...
Believe it or not, Baltimore had no city snow removal plan until 1959!
The transit company had to clear the tracks (that's why they all had dozens of sweepers and plows) and when they did, the autos all drove on the streetcar tracks, which delayed service.
In February, 1958, Baltimore was hit by a surprise 28 inch snowstorm, which was accompanied by 25 to 45 MPH winds - a full fledged blizzard.
The transit company brought out the sweepers on the two remaining streetcar lines (BTC was an NCL property, and been killing streetcar lines since 1947), but it was a loosing battle. The city did very little plowing and only on selected main streets. By Sunday afternoon, not a transit vehicle turned a wheel. Sweepers were derailed, PCC's were blocked in snowdrifts up to the windshields.
The City belatedly realized that while they cooperated with NCL to rid the city of those old-fashioned streeetcars, they had also destroyed the snow removal system, so by Winter 1959 they had a comprehensive snow plan for Baltimore City.
(He served as a Socialist, not because he had any interest in Socialist ideas, but solely because that had been the only party without a preselected nominee. Anyway, McLevy became famous for imposing extreme fiscal discipline on a formerly spendthrift city government, slashing taxes and spending with a meat-ax approach.)
Sounds socialistic to me. He probably cut the parts of the budget that provided no benefits to society. Here in New York we run a capitalist government: powerful interests are in it for the profit.
Denver didn't have much of an organized snow removal system until the infamous Blizzard of '82, when we got almost two feet of snow on Christmas Eve. It also cost Mayor Bill McNichols his job. Instead of clearing city streets, many of the snowplows were sent to the now-demolished sports arena which bore his name to clear the parking lot. When it was pointed out that these plows should have been clearing the streets, ol' Mayor Bill replied, "Well, if I had been able to get there, I would have told them to do so." To which an editorial replied, well, Mr. Mayor, there is such a thing as a telephone. He was voted out of office shortly after that.
Then, a year later, we got about 18 inches of snow on Thanksgiving weekend. The new mayor, Federico Pena, came up with the brilliant idea of packing the snow down on side streets using the city's garbage trucks. He figured the snow would melt quicker if it was compacted. Usually, this does in fact happen out here; after a snowstorm, it warms up and in a few days, most of the snow is gone. This time, however, it blew up in his face - a few weeks later, we had a stretch of 110 consecutive hours of subzero temperatures, and that compacted snow froze solid. Side streets were rutted for months.
Needless to say, snow removal is a political hot potato in Denver. It hasn't stopped light rail yet, though. The buses may be stuck in traffic, but the trains keep rolling along.
snow removal is a political hot potato in Denver
Talk about a mixed metaphor :-)
Also.....people leaving there stuck carsm on ramps......
oregon uses sand it's gritty and the idiots drive fast kick it up and you can get pitted windods,at least the cars bottoms dont rust out from sand like salt.
As far as snow is concerned, I wouldn't give you a wooden nickel for a rear-wheel car. You need a FWD or AWD to do you any good. Another
plus is Traction Control which my 2000 Windstar has. My other car,
a 5-speed '95 Neon, has the nickname "snowcat". It really does well
even though it is low to the ground. My business is moving to 3 miles
from my home , so it shouldn't be too bad. The only half decent RWD
car I had was my 71 Chevy Caprice w/ positraction. I have to admit it
got my out of a few snow jams at times.
Chuck Greene
The reality is that about the only things that were better 30 or 35 years ago are the family and the subway.
Both of those were worse 25 years ago than they are today.
Well, my car is RWD and does run excellent in snow, and IMO, it is also my favorite; a 1972 Volkswagen Beetle.
Please. Gas would not be 75c a gallon now in your wildest dreams. In fact, if the auto industry had kept up it's 70's logic, it would have long ago ceased to exist.
There is much to be said for emissions controls and computerized engine management (which go together, really) in that a car purchased today emits over 99% less noxious gases and particulate manner as a car built in 1980. And the removal of leaded fuel from the market also was a wonder, considering its wonderful environmental side effects.
I don't miss smog, lead-contaminated soil, or 4.5MPG cars.
Oh, if you shop around, you can get what you want. My Sunfire has no trouble with hills, and of what you describe, the only thing htat fits is the lack of a full-size spare. And BTW, that mini-spare started in the 70s and was a Firestone invention. In anycase, tires dont' go flat as much as they used to, since in most cases, they are built better, and tested better. You really need to hit something hard to kill it. And within 5 years or so, run-flat tires will eliminat the need for a spare entirely.
-Hank
[re 70's cars vs. today's]
Cars in general are more reliable today even with all their computerized stuff. While things sometimes do go wrong with them, for the most part the problems don't result in immediate disablement. And today's warranties are much better. I can remember when the standard warranty was 12 months/12,000 miles. Most everything is better than that today; my Rodeo's warranty is 36 months/36,000 miles, with powertrain coverage for 10 years/120,000 miles.
[While things sometimes do go wrong with them,
for the most part the problems don't result in immediate disablement.]
Au contraire, in my case. My 91 Pontiac Grand Prix (purchased Aug 1999 with 107k miles) wouldn't start, although the starter turned. The crankshaft rotation sensor had broken, so the computer thought the engine was not turning and refused to provide a spark. That's the only problem I've had so far, now with 131k miles and counting.
My previous car was an 85 Olds Cutlass with an underpowered 4 that I bought for $1000 with 103k miles. I had it for 6.5 years and got rid of it when the AC blew and the cost of replacing the AC was more than the value of the car. I was in a carpool and Aug 99 was very hot, so I needed AC. The engine still ran like a charm with 230k on it.
There shoud be Federal Requirements that all cars should be able to function even with a total computer failure. Same goes for aircraft. I am an ardent believer that everything should have an emergency manual backup system. I wouldn't mind if cars came with a crank so that you wouldn't need a battery. I mean with as much automation that goes into subways, all ATO lines have manual controls and signals at the interlockings in case of computer failure. If you think about it, computers and electronics can't be fixed, only replaced and this is a dangerous weakness.
Not true. Replacing electronic componants is much better than repairing them (and they can be reaired if you know what you're doing) Generally, electronics are so small that replacement is the only option. You also don't tun the risk of having an additional failure in a 10-y-o computer. Why repair a componant when it's more efficient to replace the part?
-Hank
I know, that's the problem. I don't have a beef w/ the efficiency, but if I'm on the road and my computer dies I proabaly won't have that part with me. It has to be ordered and shipped and that does me no good in the middle of nowhere. If something is fixable you can get out your pliers and restore your car to some working condition so that it can get to the nearest town. If the end of the world comes these replacement electronics parts will be harder to get than gasoline. I want to be covered for all possible outcomes.
If the end of the world comes these replacement electronics parts will be harder to get than gasoline. I want to be covered for all possible outcomes.
If the end of the world does come, we probably won't really care about finding electronic parts, or gasoline for that matter.
My 88 Jeep, bought brand new, is still rolling right along, in the spirit of the R-32s, with 403,000 miles. The original 4.0-liter engine is still oil-tight, and has never been touched internally.
Congratulations. My Cutlass' underpowered 4 didn't burn any oil, either. I drove it 5k to 6k miles (mostly highway: 127k miles [from 103k to 230k] in 6.5 years) between oil changes and never needed to add a drop. And the high-powered V6 in my '91 Grand Prix doesn't burn oil,either. I'm getting 28 mpg, a darn sight better than the 11 mpg I got with my '73 Cadillac.
Hey I just realized that a slow oil leak makes oil changes un-necessary. I had always wondered why we didn't change the oil on out 70's cars. Well we didn't need to, we'd just add more and the old would get burned. The power steering fluid on the other hand would just suppliment our driveway coat.
Well we didn't need to, we'd just add more and the old would get
burned.
Au contraire. What was getting burned was the cleaner (and therefore lighter) oil. The dirty old stuff was still there.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
So I suppose you never replaced your overly-clogged oil filter either? Mad. I'd have loved to see the sludge that car was using as lubricant.
Oh, the new oil burned off first.
-Hank
Well I remember as a kid my dad would change the oil from time to time. They say you should do it every 5k, well for a car w/ 350k (most in the later 1/2 of its life) that means 70 oil changes and I never saw anything close to that. The car went into the Russ the mechanic every 2-6 months and I believe that he changed the oil when necessary, but after 1990 we never did it at home any more. Same went for the LTD. We put 200k on it in 6 years. Again I saw nothing near 40 oil changes. Of course 70's cars didn't need clean oil.
Of course 70's cars didn't need clean oil.
Sure they did. I'll cite one example - not a scientific study, by any means, but an example I am familiar with. My parents owned two 1955 Dodge sedans, one of which they purchased new and one of which was purchased new by my grandfather. Both of these cars received regular maintenance, including regular oil changes, and both were driven over 125,000 miles - this at a time when 70-80,000 miles meant that most cars were ready for the junkyard. Our neighbors owned a similar 1956 Dodge sedan (same motor, transmission, etc.) but did essentially no maintenance. By the time it went to the junkyard at about 60,000 miles you could see it coming for miles from the cloud of smoke it trailed.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
You'll be pleased to know that I change the oil on my Saturn every 2,500 miles, most of which are on the highway. That's four months of driving for a subway rider. Thanks to the MTA, my car ought to last 20 years.
I got hit by a Saturn this morning on the Belt. No one was hurt, nor was my car. Who was the genius who put a gas station in the middle of the parkway, with short acceleration lanes and left-lane entrences and exits?
-Hank
Hank - glad to hear you're alright.
As for who pushed for a design of a gas station in the middle of the parkway with short exit and acceleration lanes - I think it was Robert Moses.
That's a bad design for sure. It's stayed that way for maybe 60 years because nobody figured out yet that it needs to be changed due to modern highway speed.
Robert Moses put it there, back in the days when cars were fewer and speeds were lower. By putting it in the middle, he would only have to build one station instead of two.
Glad you are ok.
Elias
(Robert Moses put it there, back in the days when cars were fewer and speeds were lower. By putting it in the middle, he would only have to build one station instead of two.)
It's a "problem" with all all the parkways. They were designed for recreational driving on a Sunday afternoon. To the extent we are doing anything transportation-wise, it is spending big bucks to straigthen out the curves and turn the parkways into auto-only expressways. This has been going on on the Hutch, the Northern State, and the Taconic.
Now if they'd only apply that same logic to approach to the Montigue Street tunnel.
The parkways are outdoors, not encased in earth and below a sea of utilities and foundations.
Moses' idea of gas stations in the middle of the parkway was also aped by the State of Maryland on the JFK (I-95) expressway, and on current or former tollways in Kentucky and Oklahoma. Unlike Moses' roads, built in the 1920s and 30s, those highways were built in the 1950s and 60s, when high-speed driving was the norm, so the engineers there have no excuse for their stupidity.
Moses' idea of gas stations in the middle of the parkway was also aped by the State of Maryland on the JFK (I-95) expressway, and on current or former tollways in Kentucky and Oklahoma. Unlike Moses' roads, built in the 1920s and 30s, those highways were built in the 1950s and 60s, when high-speed driving was the norm, so the engineers there have no excuse for their stupidity.
The center-median rest areas on I-95 in Maryland have long entry and exit lanes, so they don't present the sort of safety hazard as the gas station on the Belt does.
I looked good and hard at my rear end today. I found some scratches in the license plate area, that was it. My plate is recessed in my bumper, and the one on the front of the Saturn is on a protruding mount. There's a bit of black plastic on my previously white Mets license plate frame. There's a line of dirt, slightly curved, running across about 3/4 of the bumper (nothing on the edges). I swear, this guy must have been PERFECTLY behind me, as it's my belief that the license plates, um, 'mated'. There's no other damage at all.
I also discovered that my Bbrother was also in an accident yesterday. While waiting to make a left turn (and signaling!) some idiot crossed the double-yellow line and sideswiped him, ripping off the bumber of my Mother's old car. Some string of luck my family's running into. (see my patricide message)
-Hank
I thought you were starting a somewhat kinky post there for a minute. :)
I can remember when the standard warranty was 12 months/12,000 miles.
I remember the 5/50 warranty on our '63 Dodge. The shorter warrantees came later.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
No, this has nothing to do with heavy metal music. To bring this back to a rail topic, the 1950-ish attitude that only big-ass steel monster (that which travels on land yet has fins MUST be a monster) vehicles are safe is the basis for absurdly harsh rules like the FRA's 800,000lbs (IIRC) buff strength requirement for passenger rail cars that has effectively prohibited Amtrak and the commuter railways from using off-the-shelf European trains and came perilously close to killing off the existing Talgos that constitute the Cascades service out Northwest.
Are European trains superior? I have no idea. But the point is that they are being built in large numbers because Europe has a real passenger rail network. If Amtrak or the commuter rail authorities could buy production models of trains from the European companies -- with necessary modifications like the couplers, of course -- it could save a lot of money compared to ordering train cars from scratch. (Of course, that's assuming Amtrak orders cars for service anywhere outside the Northeast and California anytime soon.)
Those Euorpian trains are just plain dangerous. I've paid close attention to the recent accidents at Padington and at Southall and when Euro trains crash they disintegrate killing 30-50 people at a time, even at moderate speeds. Amtrak's worst crash killed 45 and that was because a car went into a canal and everyone drowned. Even the Chase MD wreck with a c. 150 mph collision only killed 25 people due to the stregnth of the Amfleet Budd cars.The reason those Europian designs are so cheap is because they are shit. Heavy duty American designs last longer, are safer and can be rebuilt after accidents. Amtrak will save money in the long run.
But the European trains are still safer than driving, in whatever kind of motor vehicle. I don't have the numbers in front of me, but I'm sure to the marrow of my bones that the deaths on the rails for a year are exceeded by the road deaths for a week. And if the price of mass-produced European rail cars versus custom-ordered American rail cars is the difference between Amtrak being able to buy lots more cars or only a few -- or between being able or not able to buy cars at all -- then the higher safety standards result in MORE deaths because the rail alternative wasn't available and people drove instead.
I find it interesting that with...I think.. one fourth the federal requirement, for what few serious crashes there are on urban/commuter rail transit that there are rarely any fatalities. [I should omit commuter rail, they are "federal"] Admittedly urban transit trains don't run as fast and don';t share track with super-heavy locomotives and freight trains but when there is a major rail transit accident at least in the USA fatalities are few or rare.
NYCT, CTA etc are probably the safest transport of any form rail, rubber, air, or ship anywhere in the world considering numbers.[But I have to add the Staten Island ferry probably has the safest record of all.]
Nope, not the ferry. There have been at least 2 deaths in the past ten years on the ferry that I am aware of (one a child who stuck his head out a window at the wrong moment) and of course the explosion of the Westfield.
As for rail deaths, if you look at the accident causes (and you can see the reports somewhere deep within the DOT web site) the majority of them are caused by motorists. Unfortunately, the two worst accidents in Amtrak history were caused by a stoned engineer who did not work for Amtrak, and a barge.
-Hank
I don't feel safe on the SI Ferry. It is not a contained environment like a train. There are places where you could fall off, or someone could push you off.
It should be completely sealed and air conditioned, with only CLOSED windows to look through.
It's amazing there hasn't been more deaths and personal or property losses on the S.I. Ferry.
You're likely the only person in the entire city who feels this way. It is indeed a contained environment. There's no place for a criminal to run or hide. It should be air conditioned (the new boats will be) but 'sealed' is something that was universally hated when the Barberi class boats were concieved. No outside deck space was the primary complaint about them. The boats are not just a mode of transportation, but a tourist attraction as well, with its view of the harbor, the statue, Ellis and Governor's Islands, and even the NJ and Brooklyn shores.
-Hank
Not only that but a nice way to keep cool and enjoy a ride on the water in summer, so I think sealing things up is a detriment. The nicest boats for that purpose have been gone many years.
Right you are on Amtrak: I've wondered why fate has dealt so many rotten curves at Amtrak; one passenger train a day on many routes and THAT's the one that gets nailed amidst dozens of freights. Admittedly nobody wants a wreck but the loss of life so much greater on passenger trains. Sad.
The explosion of the Westfield on the Staten Island Ferry was over 100 years ago; I'll add there was a freak accident where a turn caused one of the 1905 boats to dip under water on one side and I believe 5 passengers on the maimn deck died, swept away. The situation you mentioned was not due to operations, it was a passenger error. Nothing is prfect but I still think the record is good. By the way they never could duplicate the inundation episode and the ship returned to service with never another such problem.
{NYCT, CTA etc are probably the safest transport of any form rail, rubber, air, or ship anywhere in the world considering numbers.[But I have to add the Staten Island ferry probably has the safest record of all.]}
Don't forget Qantas Airways!
The new FRA requirements are IMHO the sorry excuse for a real response to the Silver Spring Md wreck on CSX in Feb '96. See NTSB RAR 9702 downloadable from their site for all the details. The short version is that a push-pullcab coach ran into F40's--eight died. The backgound however is that there was apparently either a failed signal, or a misread signal, or a disobeyed signal. The NTSB report could not decide which but they did discover that during the signal "upgrade" several years previously there was no FRA or FTA design oversight even though the project was FTA funded. The net result was that all the feds did was individually qualify the various signal parts but made no analysis of locations with respect to station stops, or any other system issues. In the event the train in question made a station stop after passing the last block signal before the interlocking. The engineer accelerated as if to indicate that when he had passed the last signal before the station it showed "clear" although CSX says it should have displayed "approach". The CSX policy of calling signals on the radio cannot be verified for that day as no tape exists. He paid with his life. In my view the buffing strength was the least of the problems, but it was what the FRA chose to address as an industrywide order for new equipment. Note that this does nothing for current cars!
"Note that this does nothing for current cars!"
But until literally last week, FRA was considering NOT grandfathering the existing Talgo trainsets -- the sole cars in Amtrak's successful Cascades service. They ultimately decided to let the existing Talgos remain in operation, but it was a real scare for a while there.
Right you are. However my comments were directed more at the policy per se than the argument over the Talgos. The new FRA rules do nothing to strengthen existing cars--for instance the Metra MU's. The classic problem is perhaps illustrated by remembering the awful wreck near 23rd st when a set of Metra MU's backed up after overshooting the platform. They were hit by a train of the 1926-7 standards which shredded the car. My points. ` mixed strength equipment is dodgy. 2 mechanical changes to new cars do not resolve existing fleet issues. 3. often the wreck is the result of signaling, rules issues which can be addressed in a number of ways. Thus 'hardening the target' while sometimes useful is not necessarily the most effective strategy.
In the Silver Spring wreck for instance 'cab signals' would likely have saved eight lives.
Sure a better signaling system would have helped prevent this accident and the ones in the UK, but cab signals don't protect against things like grade crossing accidents, freak clearance accidents, track failure, vandalism and debris on the track. With Push-Pull operations more popular than ever we have to make sure that a passenger car can stand up to the same amount of abuse a locomotive can. In the cab of a locomotive the engineer is protected by collision posts steel framing. In a control cab the engineer's only hope of survival is to bail out and run through the passenger car and don't forget that the passenger car is now leading the train. Instead of having a locomotive or express cars there to absorb the forces, we have a car with people. Their only hope is for the car to plough through whatever the obstruction is and remain intact until it comes to a rest. You can't prevent most of the types of accidents common today. All you can do is be ready for them.
Cab cars must have collision posts that meet or exceed FRA specs for locomotives. Coaches do not, just standard buff strength.
Motormen on MU cars have been "right up front" since 1914, and collisions have been below the national rail average for many years.
As to grade crossing accidents, they all belong in the "stupid human tricks" class. The trains don't jump off the tracks and hit motor vehicles, it's the idiot's at the wheel that's at fault.
As a friend of mine used to say about autos and trains at crossings: "You can win. You can lose. Never, never tie!"
Amtrak found an interesting solution to this problem: 'Cabbage' cars. They rebuilt mechanically unsound F40s into cab-baggage cars. No pax in the first car, and you have cab control.
-Hank
MARC had come Control Cab F units and the LIAR used old PA's. I saw some in Chicago. I, an F40 fan, was hartbroken.
IIRC the signal system was modified to make the blocks longer [read saving the RR's money on maintaining signals] and there were no longer leaving signals at the end of each station which should be a must for any passenger operation making frequent stops, like subways/els generally are. And engineers/TO's are human. Of course it's easy to blame the operator, or pass the buck to something else. I
Just so. The cheap but effective upgrade would have been some sort of 'repeater' at the station. Drawings in the railfan press at the time showed where the old signal mast had been removed. (Thank you John Snow) It may BTW be time to simply mandate cab signaling on all frt/pass trackage. And before any defenders of poor downtrodden rr's being burdened by pass train costs just remember, if all engines had them the price would drop. (you remember the lies in school about mass production right?) Seriously, signaling upgrades may well be in order, particularly since we can now locate engines without track circuits (GPS).
Tom,
We may not have had radial tires back then, but they are still "good old days" to me!
My dad bought a used 53 Chevy in 1954. The car seemed to have a flat tire every time we went to the garage. I honestly can't remember the tire brand involved (I wonder if they might have been US Royal), but he solved it by having a tube put in the flat tire. He did this three times and then went out and got a set of Firestones which solved the problem. He really did love Firestone!
Tom, you might be old enough, perhaps you remember the disasterous "recaps" of the 1940's. Weren't they a piece of work?
>>> perhaps you remember the disasterous "recaps" of the 1940's <<<
Karl;
I do not remember any disastrous recaps, but in the ‘40s no one in the immediate family owned a car. In the ‘50s recapped tires were a low cost alternative to a new tire for those that could not afford new tires and were considered ok for use in town on an automobile (before the Interstate highway system many people had cars that were only driven around town), and were popular on semi-trailers long after that.
Even worse than recaps were retreaded tires that were in Germany at least to the early ‘60s. These were worn tires that had uneven wear ground down and then had new treads cut into them. The bottom of the tread would be right at the cord, and usually they would paint the grooves of the tread black to hide anyplace where the tread cut had nicked the cord. I do not remember ever seeing retreaded tires in the U.S.
Tom
In the 70's I drove a yellow medallion cab and I remember all the NYC fleets used retreads. I remember a couple of times a chunk of the tread would come off and the tires would make a loud noise. I don't remember any blowouts or flats though due to them. (By the way, my cab company that I worked for was actually in that parking lot on the February page of Bill Newkirk's calendar at on 31st Street in LIC)
Bus tires are generally regroovable.
-Hank
I had a Firestone blowout on my new Ford back in 1985 after a big 3,400 miles, which is when I switched to Michelins. I also got to see an SUV-Firestone tire blowout and front-over-top rollover last month, two days after the first stories about the tire problems surfaced -- mom, grandma and two kids ages 2 and 3, who fortunately were not seriously injured.
Judging from the stories last week that indicated the tire problems surfaced first 18 months ago in the Middle East (since hot weather boosts the odds of tread seperation), I'd say Bridgestone/Firestone is in big trouble for the stonewall job they gave Ford on the AT's reliability when the problem first came up, while Ford is going to be hit with big-time judgements for not taking more of an initiative to find out what was going on between early 1999 and August, 2000.
Remember that Firestone was part & parcel of National City Lines. Ever seen a bus (or a trolley coach, until they killed them, too) on an NCL controlled system that didn't have Firestones?
For some of us who lived through NCL, it's just desserts. You did evil in the past, now evil is visited on you.
And Bridgestone. The Japanese parent of Firestone. Their track record for substandard tires is almost as long as a drag freight.
(Besides, there's just something suburban-ish about Explorers
and other SUV's.)
Nonetheless, there are few SUVs on my block. When parked at the corner, it is impossible to see, leading to fender benders. And if an SUV comes through your side window as a result, it's big trouble.
Perhaps due to parking, we don't have any of the really Loooong SUVs.
And if an SUV comes through your side window as a result, it's big
trouble.
As I've said before, that's largely a fallacy. SUV bummper heights are not so high that they'll be at the level of a car's window. Maybe one with an aftermarket lift kit, which you'll rarely see anywhere in the city.
By the way, it's not just SUV's that present an extra danger to cars in collisions, however exaggerated that danger may be. Earlier today I saw the aftermath of a crash on Route 112 in Port Jefferson, in which a late-model Honda Accord had rearended an older Chevy full-sized van. The battered Honda was being loaded onto a flatbed, its grill and headlights smashed, radiator punctured (there was water all over), and its hood and fenders buckled. A top notch body shop might be able to save it, from what I could see, but more likely it'll be off to the junk yard. The van? Completely undamaged, except for a paint smear on the rear bumper.
(By the way, it's not just SUV's that present an extra danger to cars in collisions)
Any heavier truck is a threat. The problem with an SUV is it's a truck driven by an amatuer. What surprised me, as I vacationed in Upstate NY, was how few of them there are. Upstaters, who may be able to justify an SUV, drive American cars and pickups.
I also saw an accident, on my way back from picking apples in northern Dutchess County. And SUV rolled on the Taconic Parkway.
Any heavier truck is a threat. The problem with an SUV is it's a truck driven by an amatuer. What surprised me, as I vacationed in Upstate NY, was how few of them there are. Upstaters, who may be able to justify an SUV, drive American cars and pickups.
SUV drivers aren't necessarily more "amateurish" than drivers of other trucks. Some of them may be less experienced simply because they're fairly new to the vehicles, but that will change over time. If SUV sales continue at their present rapid pace, then yes, it's true that there will be a relatively high number of inexperienced SUV drivers on the road at any particular time. But every steep demand curve levels out over time, and I don't see why SUV sales won't either.
Regarding Upstaters, I would imagine that the generally weak economy in the area is a major reason why you don't see many SUV's.
Actually my guess is the upstaters have more sense. If you need a truck you might as well have a truck and not something made to create an image. My late father-in-law had an SUV and whatever accomodations it offered could be matched by a conventional sedan, plus the sedan would have a trunk.
I've lived in areas for 23 years now where nearly evryone has a car and a (pickup) truck; my truck of choice is a full size van: I can haul nearly anything I want and it's under cover and not exposed to theft or bad weather. But most everyone else has a pickup, and SUV's are rare. If you're going to have the expense of driving a light truck as opposed to a car might as well have the service it offers.
Full sized and conversion vans get worse millage than SUV's. Needless to say my University bought some new Ford V10 vans to haul the boats with and I got to drive it. It was sooooo sweet.
Yes, I'm living proof. I almost cry every time I fill it up. 10 MPG; funny with the other carb I had I got 15. But I've moved almost 2 rooms of furniture with one, moved lots of building materials, etc. That's why I have one.If I ever want to camp the rough way it can be a camper, but the wind resistance [and reaction to wind] is bad so no wonder they're bad on fuel.
>>>The problem with an SUV is it's a truck driven by an amatuer. <<<
Amen to that
Peace,
ANDEE
Out here in North Dakota (we have no subway to ride) we get piles of snow, and bad weather. Anyway the only cars seen in the ditch were 4WDs. Go figgure.
Once upon a time....
when I was a kid on Long Island, there were TANKS in that Freeport Armory. And that was just on the west side of the Medowbrook State Parkway. Babylon Turnpike went over the parkway, and someone in a large Cadilac was headed west across the overpass at high speed, and ran into the side of a tank trying to enter the armory.
Bet you he can't do that again.
But I have never seen tanks at that armory since.
Elias
Anyway the only cars seen in the ditch were 4WDs.
That's not too surprising. 4WD gives most people a false sense of security so they think they can still drive like they usually do. Actually, 4WD vehicles are LESS stable on the road than 2WD vehicles and accordingly should be driven with MORE caution, not less, but they can get going SLOWLY when other vehicles would be totally stuck.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Anyway the only cars seen in the ditch were 4WDs.
That's not too surprising. 4WD gives most people a false sense of security so they think they can still drive like they usually do. Actually, 4WD vehicles are LESS stable on the road than 2WD vehicles
and accordingly should be driven with MORE caution, not less, but they can get going SLOWLY when other vehicles would be totally stuck.
For what it's worth, the owner's manual for my Rodeo is quite clear about what 4WD can and cannot do. People who think 4WD helps you stop better on slippery pavement are either very naive or very foolhardy. That being said, the extra traction of 4WD can be invaluable at times, as long as you know what you're doing.
If you don't want to get stuck get a Jeep w/ a winch or an old M3 Half-track. A 1/2 track is my dream car, well that or an M8 greyhound or SKdfz-222
>>> A 1/2 track is my dream car <<<
Mike;
Do they quote the gas milage in those things in miles per gallon, or gallons per mile?
Tom
The M3 half track only used a White 160AX 127 hp I-6 with 386 cu in displacement. Recomended max speed is 45 mph, but the engine is not speed governed. Both the tracks and the front wheels were driven and you had an option of a which or anti-ditching roller in the front. Don't know millage, but it had a 60 gallon tank
An M8 used a 110 hp I-6 320 JXD Hercules engine. It went about 50 mph and got 6 mpg with a 53 gallon tank. M8 was a 6x6.
Now if you want to get to work in a hurry you can buy a surplus T17 Staghound. They had 2 97 hp GMC 270 I-6 engines (you could run on only one) and got about 4 mpg from the 112 gallon tank. The T17 went about 56 mph. You can get then down in central america.
[Don't know millage, but it had a 60 gallon tank]
These vehicles must be HUGE since "millage" is a term used in real estate tax computation formulae.
LOL, you got me there.
>>>When parked at the corner, it is impossible to see, <<<
They recently made 2 corners in my neighborhood "no standing at any time" zones, eliminating 4 parking spaces for everyone, due to this problem.
Peace,
ANDEE
Since it seems to be a high speed problem, anyone stupid enough to be driving one these monsters in NYC (average xtown speed 7 MPH) shouldn't have a worry.
Peace,
ANDEE
After 18 years, they finally made one corner near me a no standing zone. The corner it's on leads to a street with a blind 90 degree curve.
-Hank
Bob -
Netscape crashed when I tried to open your post. Curious, I tried again after restarting Netscape, same thing. Could you be using some sort of Java or something else that's causing trouble for older browsers (I'm using version 3.0)?
I don't think so. I haven't changed my configuration in quite a while, other than getting a cable moden 2 months ago. But I've posted mant times since then.
Peter;
I suspect the problem is local to your machine. I opened that message with problem.
Tom
Same with me and I have WebTV which always has problems with Java.
But I thought that Java was simply unsupported, so it would just ignore <APPLET> and <PARAM> tags.
I suspect the problem is local to your machine. I opened that message with problem.
Which is exactly what it turned out to be.
It seems that Me and Mr. SD-600 were in a race to first reply to the Meaningless thread. Look how close it came:
Fri Sep 8 18:40:01 2000
Fri Sep 8 18:40:02 2000
I'd be willing to bet that you'll never see the first 2 responces to a message being posted 1 second appart. Jeez, what happens in the event of a tie? Does the MB crash?
Also look at all the irony. I said let "me be the first" and I was with my post comming on the first second after 18:40. Mr. SD-600 was second ringing it at the second second after 18:40 Also another Subtalker said that we might have exausted all possible topics, but the Meaningless Post not only led to a rare Message Board phenominon and also meaning in the timestamp of the first 2 posts. Wow, I'm over stimulated, I gotta lie down!
During the Friday PM rush, there was a BIE on a northbound B train entering 59/Columbus Circle. This blocked the B & D service from Sixth Ave. (trains rerouted to 21 St.) and forced uptown C trains to go express from Canal to 59th St. Massive congestion on Sixth Ave. developed. For whatever reason, Essex Tower crossed a D train, mentioned in the title of this post, to the local track leaving Bway/Lafayette, and W.4th Tower sent this train upstairs at W4th St. onto the Eighth Ave. local track. But this train had no way to get onto the Eighth Ave. express track, since there is no crossover to the Eighth Ave. Express track between Canal & 59 St. and since access to 59 St. was also blocked from the Eighth Ave. local track, what to do with this D train? When it got to 42/8, it couldn't stay there as 50/8 upper level was already occupied. So this R68 D train got rerouted to 179 St. On my last E trip of my work day, as I was passing thru 63rd Drive on the Queens bound express track,, that train passed me on the Manhattan Bound express track running lite. I heard that train got put back into service toward Stillwell D at 50/6, being able to be crossed over at either 34/6 or W4th.
I was working the southern division of the D circa 1986 when the R68's were brand new while the D had split service and the D/Q made skip-stops on the Brighton. One day I was unable to turn at 57/7 due to a 12-9 (person under) southbound and I was rerouted to Continental. When I reached there, the tower emptied out as virtually everybody came out of the tower to check out this new piece of equipment most never saw before. The old time motormen, who worked Queens IND virtually all their careers and were now were working switching jobs were suprised and delighted that these cars operated the traditional 60 foot car way.
Darn! I missed that. Just got a plain old R46 F train.
On the LIRR port jefferson branch, the tracks extend beyond the station for quit some bit. Did this line once extend beyond the area?
Or was it extended to be used just as a yard?
ALso why is service on disel lines so slow? Port Jeff branch and ditto for the Oyster Bay branch. I know that the diesel fleet can do at least 60.
On the LIRR port jefferson branch, the tracks extend beyond the station for quit some bit. Did this line once extend beyond the area?
Or was it extended to be used just as a yard?
The line once ran as far east as Wading River, about 15 miles or so. Service was terminated east of Pt. Jefferson sometime in the 1930's.
I just added a page on the branch from Port Jeff to Wading River about a week ago to my lirrhistory website.
Sorry about the bad link. The Wading River page is here
While diesels may reach speeds of 60 miles per hour, they need a straight and level track to get that fast. Port Jeff branch has a lot of hills and curves with very few straight-aways other than Greenlawn to Huntington. Therefore, its not the equipment but the terrain that prevents top speed
Also note this is a manual block operation with train orders I believe. No signal system except at sidings (passing and station).
what will be the line-up of buses at the bus festival at the transit museum?
will njt's gg1 be brought into hoboken terminal?
what will be the line-up of buses in hoboken?
it used to be that subtalkers would look down on bustalkers for the problems they were having over there... well bustalk now is a model of decorum and seriousness ... they should be congratulated for the changes they have made... the unrelenting personal attacks going on in both directions here at subtalk speaks very poorly of the people engaging in them... to paraphrase a lawyer named welsh during the army-mccarthy hearings:have we no shame?
dont blame me "heypaul" i am out here shooting all of our rail systems hopefull shooting the blue line inside the motormans cab
( tomorrow starting at 3pm PST ) to almost midnight!!
im busy these days & have constructive things to do for myself others
& our world of enjoying "rail transit systems worldwide"
being called ""the left coast problem"" & all of the profane language
being used etc. ( oh well ) check out some of my new photos on
http://photos.yahoo.comasiaticcommunications
help yourself to the fine pics kick back download ENJOY !!...
peace see you this october i will call you again thankz "heypaul".
I totally agree with you. I think that is because a good number of very astute bus operators are contributing there regularly.
if everyone would stop picking on salaam (or anyone for that matter) our problems would all go away.
I proposed the exact same thing, if people stopping responding to Salaam's more disgusting messages, then nobody would ever have to be bothered with them. Instead, he posted MORE drivel. Hank Eisenstein has already mentioned it.
Salaam's "more disgusting" messages were only posted in response to equally or almost equally disgusting messages posted by others baiting him... if you completely ignore someone then yes they probably will post more.
My question is which subway division is the best to work on and why, and do you pick the division that you want to work or or is it picked by seniority?
You have to consider the BMT-IND as one division. As for the IRT, the overwelming majority of the jobs start/finish in the Bronx, and lets face it, if you don't live uptown, most don't want to commute 90 minutes each way to/from work. I feel sorry for a conductor who lived in Staten Island who was working midnites on the D while I was back in the summer of 1982. He went to the BMT-IND so he wouldn't, hopefully, have to travel too far. Poor guy. When he worked the extra extra list he did OK, but when he had to pick a regular job for the first time, this poor guy got stuck with 5 days on the midnite tour out of Bedford Park! Talk about traveling!
I too live in Staten Island and keep getting thrown to the IRT. As a CR I was forced to the A Div and stayed there working 15 months as an Extra Extra and Vacation Extra (I was 59 out of 60 on the VR list -half the time I was extra). I was finally able to pick into the B Div - 5 days on the Nancy - for 4 months before going to Motors. Now here I am back in the A Div. I pick this coming Friday in the B, but doubt that there will be anything left for me that I want, so I will probably stay in the IRT, where I will more than likely be able to pick an AM RDO Relief job out of Van Cortlandt.
Well as an ex Motorman I think I'll finally put my 2 cents in. As many have mentioned where you live at and the convenience of reporting terminals or yards is a major aspect. But I'll give my evaluation of the three, remembering that many lines overlap now that IND/BMT are in a sense one division now [since late 1967]
IND: the best railroad of the three. A lot of fast track, few slow curves, virually no one-block timers [unless they've added a bunch since my days there]. The least stressful of the three. Negatives: some lines can be very boring, like the G and what had been AA so pretty much the C IMO now.
IRT: even though the old stuff I loved is long gone it's still IMO the most nostalgic division and the variety of tunnel work, stations, classic el lines, and some fast track make it the most interesting.Negatives: there are some l0-12 MPH curves and a few other things that can make a job tiring, but generally not bad. Also as I remember the tunnels in summer were the hottest. At least on the original line: East side below GC, west side north of TSQ.
BMT: a lot of outdoor running, some historic lines undisturbed, basically enjoyable but: Negatives: way too many slow curves, one block timers in some cases all-red without a lunar to let you know the signal is on time...maybe they've corrected this? I found such routes to be way more tiring than the the IRT or IND.
I worked them all in liked each in its own way.
The only line that still has non-lunar white timers in the entire system is the L. But the timers are very easy to figure out, just gotta pray that there is no train in front of me or I'm taking a trip to CHHHOWWW city.
The original Contract One portion has a layer of waterproofing, which may be acting as insulation.
I pick Monday morning. I'll give you an idea as to whats left (that I can remember) on the PM tour. By the way--forget about AM's.
In the south on the PM's there are:
28 RDO relief jobs, 7 extra jobs, 1 OPTO extra job, 5 straight jobs.
Also available are 9 VR slots, 27 OPTO VR slots, 23 miscellaneous slots, 7 north extra slots, 2 queens extra slots, 2 queens OPTO extra jobs (you work Sat/Sun at Court Sq), 1 north OPTO extra slot.
Including all sections (South/Queens/North) on all tours, I would estimate that there are between 175 to 200 jobs left.
Good luck.
There is no "best" division to work on unless you like diversity in equipment. The "B" division runs more types of equipment than the "A" division. On your first day as a motorman, you go to the transit school(PS 248) in Bensonhurst and sit in the auditorium. There, the TA tells you if you have a choice between the A or B or the whole "class" could be mandated into one division. When I became a conductor, all 44 persons in our class were mandated to go into the "A" division. When I became a motorman, you could select where you wanted to go but seniority was a factor. There were about 50 people there with 26 slots available for the "B" and 24 for the "A" and those slots were taken in order by the persons who did the best on the civil service test picking first, on down to the persons who did the worst in that group picking last.
Hey, zman. You forgot the "C" Division -- Maintenance of Way.
You get REAL diversity with covering all divisions and using a variety of equipment. One of the main negatives is that you end up working erratic hours, usually in the Off-peak Midnight to early morning hours. Not fun for 'day people'.
Doug aka BMTman
Absolutely true, but miscellaneous classes are very rarely optioned to brand new T/O's. It'll be a long time before I decide to go that route. I will NEVER pick a midnight job. YUCK.
True, but if you're a "night person" it could be great. Besides, the best part is you don't have to work with the fikel and sometimes annoying public ridership.
Doug aka BMTman
Midnight person? Me?>>>>>>>>(in the voice of homey the clown)>>>>>I DON'T THINK SO!!! HOMEY DON'T PLAY DAT!!!
[I DON'T THINK SO!!! HOMEY DON'T PLAY DAT!!!]
Hey, zman, I'm a big "In Living Color" fan myself (that was the best show to come out of the 1990's. They had Jim Carey doing his "Fire Marshall Bill," and Damon Wayans doing "Homey D. Clown" and that smelly homeless man and one of the "Men on Film" characters. I don't think there's been a funnier show since).
Doug aka BMTman
And what about those Fly Girls? Look what happened to Jennifer Lopez!
Hey, Keyston Pete, that was the best part of the show!! (watching the 'Flygirls' go into action -- I would have loved a poster of that!)
And of course you had to mention Jennifer Lopez....yummmmy!!! :)
Doug aka BMTman
Sure you do. The midnight jobs usually have at least one trip during the AM rush, when you are the tiredest. If you're a night person, maybe you should try for a late PM job -- start around 1700 - 1800 and clear early in the morning. Talk about YUCK!
I'm the kid in the US Open 2000 shirt, I'm gonna be there like 12:15 for an hour. If you want to trade, buy(Yea!), sell, I'm the man to talk to!
--Clayton Parker--
23 years ago today, the last J train left the 168th St station. In one of the most ludicrous transit schemes in history, the city closed the 3 outer Jamaica Avenue el statons, with the thought of replacing it with a subway underneath nearby Archer Avenue. Jamaica business owners, the fools they were, thought the elimination of a direct rail link to their shopping district would actually be beneficial.
I have vague memories of riding the J train east of Queens Blvd. I was only 5 when it was closed. I loved to go shopping with my family in Jamaica. We'd always get on at Elderts Lane and we'd ride to the last stop. Then we'd walk along the avenue, stopping in all the stores (starting in May's, then Young World, and of course, Gertz). Then, after a trip to McDonalds, it was back onto the train at 160th St. for the ride home.
After the el closed, this once joyous trip became a nightmare for me. Suffering from serious motion sickness as a child, the bus ride became a tourture ride. If I didn't take any Dramamine, I was 100% guaranteed to barf up at least once, coming and going home. And if I was "lucky" to get that pill, I merely slept through the entire outing. Watching the men slowly tear down the el was also torture. I have vivid memories of looking up at nothing more than the steel skeleton and tracks with t's catwalks chainsawed off, and stations reduced to metal skeletons. The one summer, that was gone too. Nothing more than a few chopped of support girders where they were needed to old traffic lights.
Anyway, I'd like for everyone with positive memories about this part of the line to share them with this thread. And can anyone tell me if there was any ceremony with the last train out of 168th St? I know there were fan trips of Standards and Triplex trains on the 11th, 2 days later.
When I started dating in the early 1950's. I would often take my date to the Loew's Valencia (168th St station), or the RKO Merrick (160th St station).
I preferred the center platform station at 168th St and the Merrick Theatre. After the movie at the Merrick, we would often walk Jamaica Ave out to 168th. It was not a problem in those days.
There were always two trains of Standards there, one with doors open (next to leave), and one with the doors closed.
I recall one Friday night about 1953, when a heavy snowstorm started while we were in the theatre. The 168th St platform looked beautiful with the snow coming between the platform roof and the roofs of the cars. The Standards always looked good in a snow scene (the BU gate cars looked pretty good in snow too). I have lots of great memories of the Jamaica Line between Crescent St (my stop) and 168th St.
The end of service came about 2 months after my resignation from NYCT and my move to Montana [I'm now in NoDak]. Guess you were a neighbor of sorts to me. I lived on Elderts Lane [282] and then at 306 Grant..1968-77. Karl B in that area too.
I enjoyed working the J because it was outdoors mostly, and the "grand entry" into downtown Jamaica. What made it even better was having so many R9's on that line for most of the last few years. Felt like they belonged on the el. A pity that they truncated service, actually a crime...before the replacement line was connected, but even then it doesn't offer all the convenience the el did on Jamaica Ave, to 168 st. no less. I was glad to be a part of it, even though I worked Vacation Relief I worked the J about half the time.
Here's one for Karl B: since the standards were a part of life back then I recall at least one severe snowstorm in 1956 when the R16's were moved to Canarsie and the beloved AB's took their place on the Jamaica el! Once I got a chance to relive the old days, then the R9's brought them back for me, and I was a motorman on them then.
Ed,
The removal of the R-16 from the 15 Line during snowstorms has been mentioned before on this board, and I honestly don't remember it. In 1956 I was holdng down a full time job, a part time job and going to night school two nights a week. My transit hobby of years past was on a back burner by necessity. I did have to ride the train to go to school twice a week, and I would have thought that I'd have noticed that all of the R-16's were gone!
That one was the snowstorm that saved my life. I was out riding trains instead of doing my homework, and in 7th grade at [unfortunately IMO] in Catholic school then, and our 7th grade teacher [Brother] was the most feared in the school. So I rode the AB's on the Jamaica line [by the way they had BU scraper trains running there, I think they were but maybe the did use alcohol on the 3rd rail then?BU's running to Jamaica...light of course.]So my homework didn't get done and I feared the "good brother" was going to kill me for not having my homework done, for the first time all year.Luckily the phone rang next AM and I was advised school was closed because of snow. I did my homework right after breakfast. This was in March I think, but I was lucky once only to ride AB's to Jamaica. The snowstorm that saved my life..so I thought.
While the Lexington Ave el was still in operation the entire Jamaica Line from Marcy Ave to 168th St had an uncovered third rail. They used two 700 series gate cars as a scraper train. They would put a number of these two car train sets out on the line in a storm.
The uncovered third rail was slightly closer to the running rails. I don't know what year they converted to a covered rail.
I've seen pics on this website dated around 1956 showing no rail covering and ones from 1967-68 showing the rail covered, so I'd assume it was between these times.
That wasn't Holy Child Jesus School by any chance, was it?
No it was Sacred Heart in Highbridge, the Bronx. The teacher was Brother Aquinas Timothy who before he was a brother was an army Seargeant so I guess it was still in his blood! From the Bronx to Jamaica, and a few rides on the BU's on Myrtle, yes that was a lot of train riding. That's why my homework didn't get done. I know, I had Friday night and all day Saturday to do it but put it off. The storm was on a Sunday.
>>>...The teacher was Brother Aquinas Timothy...<<<
I heard about him from my cousin, a real sadistic SOB, guess I was lucky my parents moved to Jersey after 3rd grade.
Peace,
ANDEE
The R-16s were allergic to snow, apparently. Someone noted that their original door engines didn't hold up in snowy weather. Whatever the reason, they would be sent to the Canarsie line when a snowstorm would hit, and BMT Battleships, er, standards would take over. It would take an epic blizzard (1888 or 1947) to slow them down.
I personally rode out to 168th St. on three different occasions between 1968 and 1969, all on trains of R-27/30s - one JJ and two QJs. In all cases, I didn't exit, but walked through the train to the other end
9/9/77 stands out in my memory for another reason (I would not find out about the el closing until the following spring): ABC sent a film crew to Storrs, CT that day to film the UConn Marching Band for football promo spots that fall. We spent three hours, in uniform, sweltering while the camera crews followed us everywhere. So, if you remember seeing a marching band during promo spots for upcoming football games that fall, that was us. One of ABC's bigwigs at the time was a UConn alumnus, and naturally he recommended us.
You'd think that the snow problems would've made the R16 more adept at running on a mostly-below ground IND line, instead of the nearly completely elevated eastern division lines. I wonder why the R16 was assigned to the eastern division when they were completely new. No R10's went there in 1948.
My thought are that the R10's were earmarked for the A which at that time or shortly thereafter was extended to Euclid. Like it or not the R10's made the run to Euclid in about the time it took my dear R1-9 to go from 207 to East NY. By the time all the R10 were delivered there became a car surplus on the IND and with the Astoria line made a thru service BMT only surplus R1's went to the BMT for the 4th Ave. local-Astoria service. I think it was the winter of 56 or 57 some R10's were on the Jamaica el as well.
The R-10s were tailor-made for the A. Their sheer brute speed was perfect for express runs, and the A had the best one of all - CPW.
Fifty R-16s went over to the A in 1956 when the Rockaway line opened. By 1959, they were all back on the BMT.
On the Jamaca line going away from B-way and Myrtle there was a store called bargan town usa,the whole bldg was painted red white and blue is that bargan town still there ?
I normally work the J and I can't seem to picture that building that you are talking about. I believe that store went out of business because there are no buildings in the Bway-Myrtle area with wild color schemes like that.
09/10/2000
Oh yes Karl! I do remember that building since my father used to take me there bargain shopping in the early 60's. Yes, the building is still standing, but is painted gray. You can barely make out the stripes underneath.
Bill "Newkirk"
Thanks,not being around the N.Y.C.area since the late 60's i just wonder what's left of places my parents and i used to go to. next summer i plan to vist N.Y.C.on my vacation,hopefully durring a subtalk field trip.
You may be interested to know that there was at least one other Bargaintown store. It was on Rockaway Turnpike, just over the NYC line in Nassau (at least I think it was over the line.) When Bargaintown went out, the store became a Times Square Store (TSS), which was also a primitive discount store. The site is now occupied by Costco.
I have vivid memories of this building, but it was painted grey about 10 years ago. The store itself is long gone.
Living in Elmont, I started (or ended) quite a few of my subway rides at 168th Street station, usually on a "QJ" train of R27/R30 cars, or, later R-7a and R-9 cars; or a #15 train of R16's. R42 cars began showing up on the "QJ" around the fall of 1969; these cars belonged to the top half of the 4800 series. I wonder if there is anything left of the west entrance at 168th Street - the one that you would have to enter through a building. If I remember correctly, there was tile in the entranceway. Too bad neither my Dad or I ever got a picture of it. I would then go round the corner on 165th Street to the Bus Terminal to get a Bee Line (later MSBA) N-6 bus home. Occasionally I would stop off at Triboro Records to add a 45 to my collection.
I remember all the stations having the 1917 platform lamps (with the heavy iron shades), including 168th Street.
wayne
wayne
Bee Line???? Does this bring back memories???
By the way, it was never the N6 when it was Bee Line.
(Note: This post belongs in Bus Talk.)
I've ridden on that very bus quite a few times. That is a non A/C'd Fish Bowl. You are correct, it did not get the N6 designation until it became MSBA somewhere around 1973 or 1974. That bus and all the other Bee Line buses got the MSBA livery (and this belongs on BusTalk) - for the most part they looked OK but they decided to do one of the old GM New-Looks up in blue and orange - it was #619 and it looked awful. They should have painted the top white instead of blue.
The N2 went right by my house and stopped a block and a half away.
wayne
The R-1/9s made their last revenue trip on the J line (Jamaica Ave El) on March 31st, 1977. I thought the Jamaica Ave El was cut back from 168th St to Queens Blvd on September 11th, 1977.
--Mark
I used to have a brochure which announced the closure and where the new replacement bus (Q49) would stop. Unfortunatley, I lost it, and the 9/9/77 date is from memory.
On one of my first trips to NYC with a couple of railfan friends, I talked my friends into a trip out to Jamaica on the KK and QJ. The R-7/R-9 fleet was still running so it was endangered old cars on two endangered lines. It was the only chance I had to do the line and it was a good choice, covering both the now-disused part of the Chrystie St. connection, and the soon to be abandoned outer end of the Jamaica Av. el. Returning to Broadway Junction we changed to the A and endured the local back to midtown. The el, though slow, was the more pleasant ride!
I've got a strange question for learned railfans:
When the KK/QJ ran skip stop service to 168th St, can anyone tell me which of the now gone stations east of 121 St. were served by which line?
Metropolitan Ave, Queens Blvd, Sutphin Blvd, 160th St and 168th St were all served by both the KK and the QJ.
I know this does not sound right, but that is what the 1969 map indicates. According to this map the QJ stopped at all stations, and the KK was a skip-stop train.
This map indicates that the KK skipped the following stations- Cleveland St, Crescent St, Forest Pkwy, Woodhaven Blvd, 111th St and 121st St.
I would not have been able to answer your question without the help of LarryRedbirdR33, who supplied me with the map for a different project.
Chris,
Disregard my post about the QJ making all stops. I was wrong because I read the map and ignored the footnotes. The KK was a rushhour train only. When it operated the QJ would skip the KK stops except for Sutphin Blvd, Elderts Lane, Eastern Pkwy, and Myrtle Ave, which were transfer stations where both trains stopped. The strange thing is that these arrangements seem to be for morning rush only. Unless these footnotes are wrong, the QJ must have made all of the stops on Jamaica Ave during evening rush.
The QJ made the following rush hour stops: Sutphin, 121st, 111th, Woodhaven Blvd, Elderts Ln, Crescent and Cleveland.
The KK made the following stops: 160th, Sutphin, Queens Blvd, Metropolitan Ave, 102nd, Elderts Ln, Cypress Hills, Norwood Ave, Van Sicklen Ave and Alabama Ave.
The confusion on the map is due to the fact that the QJ ran during non-rush hours as well.
Thanks. Curious to see that Sutphin Blvd. was an express station. It was probably important for the x-fer to the LIRR. I wonder why the J train didn't run to Sutphin Blvd from 1977 to 1985, instead of terminating at Queens Blvd. The el structure was demolished just up to the intersection of Sutphin/Jamaica.
And that portion was still intact as late as October of 1988. They certainly took their sweet time dismantling it. I took a J out to Jamaica Center in 1990, and the support columns were still standing beyond 121st St., although the plate girders had been removed.
Yeah, it was torn down in late 1990. I still don't understand why it couldn't have remained open until 1987 at the latest.
Me too. I drove under that structure on the morning of my sister's wedding day (10/22/88), but don't remember seeing any evidence of a connection to the Archer Ave. line. Then again, maybe I didn't go far enough.
Yes, the connection was there at that time (it opened less than 2 months later). The connection first opened in the early spring of 1988, as the tracks leading down the ramp were used to lay up trains. I used to see a lot of out of service R30 redbirds at that time.
Now that you mention it, I thought I remember seeing some sort of ramp veering off to one side before 121st St. (I was headed west on Jamaica Ave.) I drove down from Tarrytown, where we were staying, to pick up an invited guest, and had some time to kill. Also drove along Hillside Ave. for a stretch.
That A ride couldn't have been all that bad if you got a train of R-10s.
Actually I don't remember whether it was an A or an E, which at that time was the rush hour service to Rockaway.
The A and E flipflopped for the last time in 1973, with the A running express in Brooklyn during rush hours. The E was permanently cut back to WTC in 1976, with the CC continuing on to Brooklyn.
Anyone have pictures of the line being demolished?
www.forgotten-ny.com
I remember it vividly, but I didn't have a camera back then. The demolition of the Culver Shuttle pictures' page on this website will give you some idea what it looked like. For years, well into the 80's, several of the steel supports remained, chopped off about halfway up, which held traffic and street lights.
At least a couple of reminders of the old elevated remain...the 'dwarf' lampposts in the vicinity of the Van Wyck Expressway. They were stunted to fit under the el...
www.forgotten-ny.com
Love the panorama shots in the masthead. Whats happening in the shot where the yellow locomotive seems hooked up to a train of Redbirds? What are the specs of the loco and how is it normally used?
David Harrison
It's hard to tell for sure unless you say exactly what photo you're talking about. This site's banner is dynamic, so the chances are very good that I won't see the same photo you see when you load the page, and that you won't even see the same photo every time you load it.
Based on your description, it can be one of two things:
(your words) A yellow locomotive hooked up to a train of Redbirds.
or
An observation car leading a train of Redbirds, probably from the recent fantrip. Details are available at http://www.nycsubway.org/cars/0f116.html. The banner in question:
http://www.nycsubway.org/gif/banner4/banner-of116.jpg
Mark
0F116 was at the rear of the train. The photo was taken at Ditmas Ave. (F) by our webmaster.
It's NOT a locomotive. Well, blow me away. The interior shot looks more like a schoolbus. What is it used for?
David Harrison
Li'l slice o' heaven today as I rode R-36 # 9470, the head car of a Queens-bound #7 train, with a completely scratch-free front window! A little smudged dirt was all that was between me and the tracks ahead. Looks like the fantrip Redbirds weren't the only windows replaced.
It may have been scratch free because it was new and the window that was in there previously had to be replaced because it may have broke.
sure hope this is still so this late october!! scratch free railfan windows make great videos !!
or still pictures if your camera is fast enough
(Train Dude notice here, another completely sensible, nice post from salaam)
One more idiotic post like your last three and I killfile you.
Respectfully,
Bob
please ignore what churchbob has to say on his "killfile list"
thankz Siemens SD-600..!!! notice how train dude didnt see this !
Salaam:
There was no reference to you, good sir, in my post. I reached the limit of my tolerance when someone pointed out the obvious to the pperson who put up three consecutive illogical posts and he still ignored it.
Also, good sir, please let Mr. Dude speak for himself.
Thankz.
Your good buddy,
Bob
okay so were you threating to put ME on your killfile list? I believe that Train Dude may have already killfiled me because we have different opinions on Salaam...
I tried to find any postings about the 9th Ave El, from 1996 to the present, but there are none. I am surprised because, at 10.24 miles of trackage (South Ferry upto the 155h St. station), was the largest single abandonment of elevated trackage in the City. Can anyone give me beginning and ending demolition dates for the El, the 159th St. yard, and the Polo Grounds Shuttle. There are plenty of books and articles about the other Els, but very little about the 9th Ave line.
Thank you,
Mike O'Leary
Yes, your are right, there is nothing about the demolition of the 9th Ave El. The demolition of the high 110th St structure must have been something to report on. My best guess for any information from that era would be the NY Daily News Archives. All the other NYC Daily papers other than the the NY Times have disappeared along with the els. Maybe, the Electric Railroaders Assn (ERA) may have something in thier files.
There have been a lot of postings on this board about the Polo Grounds Shuttle as there has been a few field trips trips.
But almost nothing about its demolition.
The search function only searches the last 5000 messages regardless of the dates you select. Use the Subtalk Archives link to browse older messages--currently no searching is available.
-Dave
Thanks, Dave! Isn't it surprising that no one would know when demolition began and ended for the El, where it began and ended, and ditto for the 159th St yard. I would think that 10 1/4 miles of track deserved a little more in the history books.
MIKE
During the research phase for my upcoming book "Rolling Thunder: The Elevated Railroad and the Urbanization of New York" I ran into much of the same difficulty in locating material about that particular El's demolition. Unlike the passing of the Sixth Avenue line a few years earlier, or the later closings of Manhattan's Third Avenue and Brooklyn's Myrtle Avenue Els, the destruction of this particular line did not elicit much in the way of public sentiment. At the time of its demolition in late 1940 and early 1941, the United States was in the midst of a major military buildup in anticipation of eventually entering the war then raging in Europe. Unlike the Sixth Avenue El (whose steel had been sold to Japan and which by this time had no doubt been converted into the bombs which would soon rain down on Pearl Harbor), the scrap from this El was immediately made into the instruments of war. For photographs of its demolition, check out the New York Times index at your local library. From late 1940 early into the next year, you will find photographs and a handful of articles concerning the Ninth Avenue El's demolition, including a few shots of that high stretch of tracks known as "Suicide Curve" coming down. Enjoy!
Eric Dale Smith
Thanks for the information, Eric! I'm looking forward to your book, when it comes out. I'll take your word for the 1940- 41 demolition period. Someone had told me that the 9th Ave. El came down in 1942, after the cars were scrapped or removed from the 159th St. yard. If I find out anything, I'll let you know.
MIKE O'LEARY
I assume you've seen the writeup of the 9th Ave El / Polo Grounds Shuttle here on the site?
--Mark
Mark, I'm STILL looking for more specific information on the demolition of the 9th Ave. El. Where did it begin and end? When did demolition commence and finish? Does anyone have any pictures of the demolition of the El, the 159th St. Yard, and the Polo Grounds Shuttle.
You guys were great wih my other questions and I thank all of you. What puzzles me is the paucity of information about the removal of almost 10 1/4 miles of elevated structure- the largest El demolition in the City.
MIKE O'LEARY
I found a better Celebrate the Century Postal Service train picture than the one linked the other day.
Today Amtrak's Wilmington Shop opens for employees, relatives, and friends to visit. I attended this open house event for the third consecutive year.
As usual, the Open House has a lot of festivities. Clowns are greeting kids, and there are a lot of exhibitions such as AEM7s, two tables of model railroad, and cars of 50's and 60's, and so on. Since I am an AEM7 fan, my focus for the past three years is always AEM7s.
For the first time, AEM7ACs are open to public. They show the electrical components made by Alsthom, and we can board the cabs of AEM7ACs 905 and 920 to watch the new instruments. It is unbelievable to see a remanufactured locomotive work well.
I boarded AEM7 908, which is about to be remanufactured. All components are moved away, and it is painted write. It really looks like a skeleton.
I have a lot of fun visiting the Open House, but I am quite sad that both 905 and 920 are painted in the UGLY Acela painting scheme, instead of keeping their former scheme-- the NortheastDirect painting scheme. Of course, I used up one roll of slide film.
Chaohwa
And you will get these pictures developed and posted soon, I hope? Looking forward to seeing them!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
At least I will post the pictures of AEM7ACs 905 and 920. As for cab pictures, it will depend on whether the resolution is good or not.
Chaohwa
Yesterday, I saw a 7 local queensbound at Shea Stadium with both sides of doors open. Isn't that unusual? In case you're wondering, the platforms were NOT crowded.
It's for the U.S. Open
That has happened a few times at Whitehall St. when the train arrived on the center platform(track construction) The reason both sides were open was that the conductor didn't know which was the right side.
Stan Fischler has just come out with a new book titled "The World's Subways". It is a brief (one hundred or so pages of text and color photographs)description of major subway systems around the world in such diverse places as London, New York, Boston, Paris, Chicago, and Moscow. It has an old color photograph of open gated Q Cars rumbling along Brooklyn's late Myrtle Avenue El as well as a recent photograph of a Loop bound Midway train leaving the Roosevelt Avenue station in Chicago. Costing around $13.00 it is a neat effort and well worth picking up.
Eric Dale Smith
Checked the GCT transit museum store, they're not carrying it...
www.forgotten-ny.com
Try Barnes & Noble - look in the Transportation section.
I picked up my copy today at the one on 6th & 22nd - they had only 2 copies on the shelf (now only one copy).
We have it at TMNY. Shop us on-line at tmny.safeshopper.com.
Most of the BIG bookstores often keep only one or two copies on the shelves. When they are sold, the warehouse brings new ones in the next day. That is why those stores can have 100,000 titles, they only have one or two of each. The computers tell them when to restock daily.
Amazon.com has the book too as does chapters.ca for you Canadians reading this.
Chapters.ca isn't a bad source of books even for those of us in the US. Delivery takes longer but they have a much better availability than Amazon.com.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Speaking of books,has anyone seen the book " Gotham Turnstiles " by john henderson ? we had a tread awhile back on the gum machines the subway stations had,well on page 41 there are a few such machines at the 96 th st. station on the 7 th ave line in 1964,along with a set of lo-v's..in color...how many such photo type books like this are there and are the titles available with the authors ? this soft cover book sure takes me back to the " good old days of transit in N.Y.C.)has Mr Henderson written another book like this one ?
The publisher has this available at the Fall Trolley Extravaganza this past weekend (9/8, 9/9). New ones were on sale, or you could buy "seconds" (damaged books) for $10 or less.
--Mark
This is a short, illustrated, overview book , part of the MBI "enthusiast" series. Although nicely illustrated, it deals with the subject in only a shallow, general way. Sometimes, Fischler seems to miss the point entirely, as in the chapter on the Tokyo system. Fischler spends a great deal of time describing the large underground "subnades", interconnected subway concourses that characterize the Tokyo subway system. He only briefly mentions the most unique and important aspect of that system, that is the interconnection of the private railways and JR lines that allow for through running from great distances into the Tokyo subway from commuter lines. Most of the text is paraphrased from Benson Bobrik's "Labrynths of Iron", which Fischler credits throughout the book. As a "new" book about subways, I suppose that a subway fan should spend the few bucks on it for the photos, but we've come to expect more from Mr. Fischler. Fischler is capable of some good work, as evidenced by his earlier volumes on the New York system. Unfortunately, I can't count this one among them. I give it just two and one-half stars!
While it is pretty good, there is a glaring error in the NY chapter when discussing the BRT (something about the BRT "Line" starting in 1915, when it should have said Sea Beach line.) I don't have the book in front of me (it's at home) but that entire paragraph in particular is completely wrong. (I think it's on page 24).
--Mark
E DOG:
I have a copy a Stan Fischler's book "THE SUBWAYS" but I would like to get some information upon where I can obtain a copy of "THE WORLD'S SUBWAYS" if possible.
BMTJeff
amazon.com, bn.com, chapters.ca, etc. over the Internet.
I came across it almost by accident at a Barnes & Noble near the White Marsh Shopping Mall northeast of Baltimore. I've not been back to New York for a few months but if memory serves me correctly there is a place called Willis Avenue Hobbies on Willis Avenue a half a block north or so from Jerico (I think I spelled it wrong) Turnpike in Mineola, Long Island. They're great at carrying the latest books on Mass Transit (Far better than even the NYC Transit Museum I might add) so if you live in the New York area, I suggest you make your way out there. Peace!
Eric Dale Smith
E DOG:
Thank you vary much for telling me where I can get a copy of Stan Fischler's latest book.
BMTJeff
Several months ago, I visited www.bettertransit.org, and sent an e-mail to the state through that site. Well, today I received a letter in the mail from the State Senate, signed by Majority Leader Joseph L. Bruno himself. He seems to be making it sound like real progress will be made, but it is probably too much to hope for, and I know I shouldn't get my hopes up.
Anyway, here is the text of the letter, dated September 5, 2000:
_____________________________________________________________________________________
Dear Mr. Goldman:
Thank you for your recent correspondence requesting state support in the 2000-2001
State Budget for mass transit.
I am pleased to report that the recently enacted 2000-2001 State Budget provides for a
new $34 billion five-year capital plan for New York's transportation infrastructure. The five-
year program is funded by a $2.4 billion increase in state revenues dedicated to transportation
and a proposed $3.8 billion Bond Act to be submitted for voter approval in November.
The five-year capital plan includes a $17.1 billion State Department of Transportation
program for state highways and bridges, transit systems, rail, aviation, local roads, ports and
canals, and a $17.1 billion program for the subway, bus and commuter rail systems operated
by the Metropolitan Transportation Authority (MTA).
This new plan fully funds the five-year MTA capital program which will continue to
improve the condition of the existing system as well as address important expansion projects,
such as the construction of the East Side Access and the Second Avenue Subway. The State
Legislature also added $45 million to the MTA operating budget to avert fare increases in the
near future and allocated $8 million of this funding for the operations of the Long Island Bus
Company.
Other transit systems in the state also will benefit from the 2000-2001 State Budget,
receiving more that $218 million of state operating aid this fiscal year and $271 million of
state capital funding over the course of the five-year transportation plan.
Again, thank you for writing. I appreciated having the benefit of your comments
during budget deliberations.
Sincerely,
Joseph L. Bruno
How much of this is going to the Manny B?
Sarge,
Since you work in the area you may already know the answer to this.
If you were to turn off Broadway onto Lexington Ave and follow the route of the old Lexington Ave el till you got to Myrtle and Grand, how much distance would you have covered?
I loved that old line, but I must admit that I have no idea whatsoever as to what the distance is between those two points.
Karl, the way I figured it out anyone on the internet could have done it. I went to one of those get directions sites. I first entered Bway and Lexington to Grand and Lexington and got 2.0 miles. Since Grand doesn't go through anymore I couldn't enter Grand from Lex to Myrtle so I took a parallel street (Classon Avenue) since the distance should be the same. Classon and Lex to Classon and Myrtle was .5 mile. So the whole distance turned out to be 2 1/2 miles.Funny thing was I had to go to 3 different direction sites before I found one that didn't go an indirect route. Computor glitch I guess, but Yahoo's direction finder took a real roundabout route.
the direction finders route you via the most main arterials and freeways, assuming that the more major the road, the faster the speed.
Sarge,
I sure am sorry that you went to all of that work. Since you had been hunting for remnants of the el, I thought you might have known the distance.
I am surprised that it works out to only 2 1/2 miles. I thought that there were eight stations eliminated by the razing of that el, and that the distance would have been greater.
What do you mean by "Grand doesn't go through anymore"?
Thanks so much for all of your work!
Grand is broken over there. I think the Pratt Institute campass is over there.
I know that Pratt has been there for years and years and that the Pratt Glee Club supposedly serenaded the Last Lex when it went by in 1950.
I can't help but wonder if the el cut right through the campus or whether the campus was expanded after the el was razed.
Well I unfortunately rode the subway today. All Queens BLVD IND trains ran local, and it took forever to get from Jamaica to Manhattan.
But that wasn't the worst. I knew that no N or R trains were running beyond 57&7th, so I knew the E/F would get more crowded at Queens Plaza, and it did get somewhat crowded.
Then we arrived at Lexington and there were hoardes of people getting onto our train. I got off and had something in Cinnabon, then I was going to catch the 6 to Grand Central. Got down to the platform and there was a train packed, standing in the station. I tried to fit in but it was impossible. Then I heard 'due to a police investigation there will be no downtown 6 service at this time. please take E or F trains instead." That explains the crowds of people on the
E/F platform. I saw there was also a train waiting behind the 6 in the station.
WCBS 880 was of no help as to explain what was going on, just the usual "no problems in the WCBS transit center" clueless as to the mess in the subways this afternoon.
So I had to forget about Grand Central and figured I'd just hang out at the Manhattan mall for awhile. The F train I boarded was packed, fortunately I had something to hold onto, took it to 34th and was glad to get the hell outta there.
I saw that there was no D service between 34th and W4th, putting yet more people onto the F.
When it was time to go home, around 5pm, I decided maybe I could get a seat on the F if i took an 8th ave train down to W4th. I didn't have to wait long before a southbound "A" of R44's came in to 34th. It wasn't too crowded, and the ride was pretty fast. Got off at W4th to see a "D" come in and dispense people onto the F.
An "F" pulled in and it was already crowded. I squeezed on but at 34th street it got even worse, as you could barely fit people into the train. Once we got to Lex it was gridlock, I just decided I had to get the hell out of there. It took several minutes for the doors to close, as the train was stuffed with people, barely fitting behind the doors. I took an "E" to Penn and decided to get the 5:46pm train to Great Neck.
The train was busy, but it was so much better than the subway. Pretyty fast ride through the East River tunnels and I was in Great Neck in a half-hour.
I don't think I'll be taking the subway that much on weekends, there are too many GO's, diversions, and problems. The TA acts like no one rides the subway on weekends, but it's quite the opposite. Instead you have tourists and people from other boroughs shopping.
And the 7 wasn't an option either, those cramped redbirds were probably packed from people who normally use the "N".
The subway is too crowded, slow, and infrequent on weekends.
And for the next few weekends there will be no trains across the Manhattan bridge, sounds like an even bigger mess.
The No.6 Line also had a G.O North of Elder Ave involing changing rails. The No.6 was running a 10 Minute headway all day normally its 5 Minutes between train. I did my last trip out of Pelham at around 4PM and all the No.6 Trains were picking up wall to wall people between 96 Street and Bleeker St. I was glad the R142A was not on time other wise I would have had to operate it. The Train was 20 Minutes behind me and broke down at 33 Street going Downtown around 5PM. The train was taken to Brookyn Bridge Spur where the T/O was suppose to leave the train and Car Eqiupment was on its way down there. They say something fell off the train. It is unknown was fell but the Police where there to help Discharge the train. A No.4 Train was used to make all stops from 14 St to Brooklyn Bridge.
The R142A Made it 9 Days but will now go back to Day 1
Of course it takes forever to get new trains running. Only in NYC. Only in America.
When will be seeing R142's replacing Redbirds? Let me guess, the year 2020.
And the Manny B mess will still be around.
i just thought of something horrible... if it takes to 2020 for the r-142's to get all the bugs ironed out, by that time they will be ready for a general overhaul... i am sure by then, they will want to modernize all the 20 year old systems... they will probably want to put in even newer technology, which might require a few more years for the testing and certifying...perhaps by then, the few people who are needed by corporate america to work, can go to work on their own personal foot powered scoooters...
Sounds to be like something from a bad dream. I wonder who to blame for that mess on Saturday. Is it the TA or some other group that keeps screwing up what should be the greatest subway system in the world. Anyone know? I'd love to know myself.
What exactly happend to the r142a, please respond. Why was it taken out of service.
The Upstate Republicans in Albany who hate NYC are responsible. Bush and Cheney and $3.00 a gallon for gas to line their friends pocketsAND 3XS HIGHER INSURANCE preminums
Personally, I HOPE that it takes until 2020 to iron out all the kinks. These new trains are a motorman's worst nightmare. Sure they're terrific for passengers and railfans but all the new devices like "black boxes" and the one awkward handle to operate with only means trouble for the ones who have to work on those contraptions.
At least the R-142 ran Saturday. I was on it at 8:30 at 180 Street.
wow. i thought it was still out of service. hopefully this one will pull through with no problems
things take getting used to. nyc hasn't gotten a new fleet of trains in so long that using them seems complicated.
things take getting used to. nyc hasn't gotten a new fleet of trains in so long that using them seems complicated. you are still used to the outdated way of operation
How many are running so far?
well that shows you that the japanese aren't perfect either. anything is bound to happen no matter where it comes from. speaking of something falling off of the new trains, thats scary!
LIRR is also having some problems with the new Bi-level fleet.
They just don't make 'em as good as they used to. The M-1's are still my preferred LIRR car of choice, because they are sturdy and reliable, and fast...
Also I think in the NYC subway fleet the R44 and R46 trains are some of the best damn things running. You can also add the Slant R40 and R32 to that list.
The newest Div B cars (the R68's, otherwise known as Hippos) are in not so great shape (much noisier than the older R44 and 46) and Hippos are slow and hard to stop.
Years ago when NYC subway got their new trains there weren't so many problems. Either the workmanship is going down the tubes or there's just more red tape.
Why was there no D service between 34th and W. 4th Sts.? There was nothing mentioning that on the MTA Web page.
Work on the Manny B.
NYCTA Service Advisory
Oh, piffle. The hyperlink didn't take. Here's the URL:
http://www.mta.nyc.ny.us/nyct/service/subsrvno.htm#DLine
Just for grins, lemme try the hyperlink again.
No D trains on Manhattan Bridge (NYCTA)
That service advisory you link us to in a later post says that the Manny B will be down starting next weekend: Sept. 16. What has been going on this weekend is this: Switch work southbound on the D entering 50/6. Because of this split D service. Stillwell to W4, and 205 to Bway Lafayette. They could relay at Bway Laf or Second Ave. I didn't see how those trains were relayed because the G.O. was STOLEN from Jamaica Center. As I said a few months ago, we don't know about a lot of G.O.'s because a supervivor who may be working at different locations confiscates major G.O.'s from terminals for their own possible use later in the week at another location. Anyhow, s/b D trains leaving 59/8 go down Eight Ave. to W4 upper level where they change for a Stillwell bound D downstairs or at Bway Laf across the platform. Too bad that in 34 years since Chrystie St. has been opened a s/b D can't go down Eighth Ave, come downstairs leaving W4th and cross again from B1 to B3 before reaching Bway Laf so the split service due to this G.O. or any other interruption of service wouldn't have to occur. The reverse can and does happen n/b because of the diamond crossover leaving Bway Laf n/b between B4 & B2 tracks.............P.S. if a reader of this post doesn't know the physical layout of the area, you won't have a clue of my post!!!!!
I know I checked the G.O.s on the website and didn't come across it. If I knew there was no 6th ave D service I would've avoided 6th ave.
Just curious. Assuming you still live in Sea Cliff, why take the Port Wash train to Great Neck. Even if you had to wait a while longer and change at Jamaica wouldn't it be much easier taking the O.B. train directly to Sea Cliff and not have to take the N22 from Great Neck??
By the way, I avoided Manhattan altogether and spent this great day at Beautiful Belmont Park.
Because it takes like 30 minutes longer to take the OB line, and it only runs every two hours on weekends.
Also it's an uphill walk from the Sea Cliff train station. I just don't like the Oyster Bay branch that much. Its a small time operation, with infrequent service and has a long slow route.
Due to U.S. Open special trains were run to Great Neck from Penn, so Port Washington branch had half hourly service. And it's only half hour from Penn to Great Neck, so it's a fast ride and no dealing with the Jamaica headache.
And it's only about a 20 or 25 minute bus ride from Great Neck to Sea Cliff. Besides, Great Neck is a busy, happening train station. Sea Cliff is just plain depressing. Last time I noticed weeds are growing between the tracks, because trains run so infrequently. And next weekend, buses will replace OB trains due to LIE bridge construction. I don't think there's anything wrong with my preference for the Pt. Wash trains, as alot of commuters from Sea Cliff also drive to Manhasset or Great Neck, even as far as Syosset, just to avoid the OB line.
Perhaps if they had electrified the OB branch a long time ago service would be better, but as we all know that was NIMBY'ed out.
And the proof that OB line don't pay, because it's a half hour from Penn to Great Neck, then about 25 minutes on the bus and I'm home, so that's about 55 minutes.
On the OB line travel time from Penn is about 60 minutes, then add to uphill 25 minute walk to home. It's just quicker and easier to get the train from Great Neck.
This book was discussed in a thread not too long ago. I believe that someone said that it was out-of-print.
I visited the gift shop of the Rockhill Trolley Museum at Rockhill Furnace, PA (home of the East Broad Top RR) today, and they have several copies of the book, brand new, sealed in shrink-wrap. They are priced at $12.95.
The address is,
Rockhill Trolley Museum
Railways To Yesterday, Inc.
P.O. Box 203
Rockhill Furnace, PA 17249-0203
Phone 814-447-9576
Karl -
Did you buy one? I'm assuming that it is the most recent edition and am curious how recent that is.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Anon,
Yes I did! It is identified as
Copyright 1977
6th Printing - Nov. 1994
Hope this helps!
Thanks... it's newer than the one I have by about ten years. I might have to think about getting an updated copy.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
They had a sample copy there that was not sealed in plastic.
It never occurred to me to check to see which printing that was!
>>> it's newer than the one I have by about ten years. I might have to think about getting an updated copy. <<<
Keep in mind that a new printing (1994) that has no new copyright notice (1977) has no new editorial content. It just means they ran out of copies in the warehouse and cranked up the printing press.
Tom
Yes and no. Quadrant Press has been notoriously sloppy in that regard. Mine carries the 1977 copyright but has additional material from 1984, including additional pages of photographs.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I made updates every time I had "They Moved The Millions" reprinted and in this latest and final reprint changed some pages entirely. But it still carries the 1985 copyright which IIRC expired 5 years ago.It doesn't matter to me..I have no problem with sharing whatever I wrote if anybody needs it.
I own that book. It's a wonderful little thing. I bought it at a hobby shoppe 10 or more years ago. Its currently on loan to my friend in Englande.
The J line northbound platforms at Lorimer St., Gates Av., and Chauncey St. have officially closed until mid-December for renovations and asbestos removal. They are going to erect plywood barriers at these stations so you won't be able to see a thing, so if you want to take pictures of the old platforms, you'd better hurry. During this G.O., all J and Z trains will stop at Kosciusko and Halsey Sts.
Until 12/18/00. See my post on J Line Renovation for the work scheduled to be performed.
METROCARD COLLECTORS CATALOG
This is a beautiful 8.5 X 11 inch 20 page booklet printed by the MTA. They later decided not to distribute it. It contains 20 glossy, color pages of actual size photos of 1997-99 commemorative MetroCards & cardholders. Full color photos of the Subway Series 97, Then and Now, Emigrant, JVC Jazz, Healthy City, Ferry Boat, Yankees 98, Subway Cool, Millennial Journeys, Mets International Week plus 63 Cardholders including the complete Great Subway series. All photos are actual size & full color! A collectors MUST HAVE!! The supply is very limited. When they are gone, they are gone.
Send $10.00 ea.+ $2. P & H in check or Money Order
Made out to Mike Makman
To:
Prof. Putter
Po Box 755
Planet Station
NYC NY 10024
What is going on in Newark? Are the new trolleys operating? Has the line been extended past Franklin Avenue?
1. They are still working (albeit at a snail's pace). The platforms at Franklin/Branch Brook and Orange Street are almost done but there is still a ways to go. At Washington Street, they closed a portion of both platforms for renevation.
2. Yes - on the HBLR
3. Yes - not for passengers (yet). I still don't know if the extension will ultimatly carry passengers. I don't see why not.
Besides, it's not his fault that he lives in LA.(GOD I HATED LIVING THERE!!!!!!)
amen to that!
i agree with you , i live in pasadena just outside LOST ANGELES !! ( whew) !!
& by the way L.A. is now worse than when you used to live here !!
life is full of dissapointments!!!! Now the MTA L.A. is going to go on strike buses & all rail tranist systems stranding all transit riders, a disaster for those here who do not own cars & are transit dependent
unless a miracle happens here, the strike is on ( L.A. times )...
my motorman unfortunately for me did not work today maybe it was his saturday off or he is getting ready for the strike. I did not cry I took it like a man took many shots then went over to persing square & rode ANGELS FLIGHT & digital photographed it all the way into the early night hopefully you will see the results soon as i can load them into my ""yahoo photos"
htttp://photos.yahoo.com/asiaticcommunications
sometime in the early hours i will load them sunday for sure !!
i will meet that motorman again soon & still will get off the railfan
video dont worry about that !! thankz salaam allah
sometimes, i have read here that in the future the subways here in new york will have very little human control...i personally don't believe that will be so... the human element has been part of my fascination for transit... if there wasn't a motorman inside the cab when i was a kid, i don't think i would have become fascinated by operating the train... i would have had no basis to imagine that the door handle was like the controller... if there hadn't been identifiable sounds connected with the train braking , i would not have had anything concrete to associate with slowing down... the visible signals told me whether there were trains ahead or whether we were going to switch over...
i am comparing in my mind trains to elevators... i can visualize the elevator operator in an apartment building on the corner of 7th and w.16th street who really was a master of operating the old otis elevators... those cars had a circular hand control that regulated speed and direction... getting the car to stop level with the floor landing was a skill... this man could really come to a smooth stop level with the floor rather gracefully... plus he carried himself in a very quiet but very aware way... it's strange, i don't remember anyone ever saying that they wanted to grow up and become an elevator operator...
anyway... would there be as much fascination for you, if the trains had no need of a human operator?
Seems like you and I are the only subtalkers up and reading at this ungodly hour. I've always had a fascination for large, complex systems. The analogy of elevator vs subway train is often used but not really valid in my mind. Elevators don't switch shafts or run one behind the other, etc. I personally feel that the human element of control is essential, however to maintain subfan interest. After all, how many would really be interested if somewhere in the back of their minds, there was not that hopew that they would be called upon to take control of a train, throw a switch or even open the doors. It would be like having a set of electric trains where we turn them on and a computer set the speed, direction and route without any intervention. how long would that hold our interest?
The human element is always necessary, becuase no system is 100% predicatble. BART is San Francisco has been computer controlled since its inception, but to this day they pay t/o's to sit in the front of the train and do nothing. They do look down the train in stations and press the "Door Open" button to extend the stop, but that's about it. I don't know how long I could take a job like that. I do know that as a kid growing up out there, it was still fascinating to look out the front window of the trains. Perhaps it was the novelty of computer control that added to the element of danger...
That's why I think PATCO is the coolest system. The trains can be run under %100 ATO, but the driver is free at any time (and in some circumstances must) to manualize operation for as long as he wants.
Unfortuneatly, emergency manual operation on BART means 25mph max. not very feasible, but then their computers were never supposed to crash.
;-)
dave
I agree with Steve about the need for the human element in railfanning, otherwise there would be no interest in trains besides a technological curiosity.
Yes, having a T/O behind the controls is essential for "making the connection" with the fans.
BTW, heypaul, thanks for a very thoughtful AND on topic post.
Doug aka BMTman
BTW, heypaul, thanks for a very thoughtful AND on topic post.
dougie... are you implying that my posts are not always very thoughtful AND on topic posts?
come to think of it, they usually are not...
No. You are thoughtful in your posts, even if they are on-topic AND asinine.
Good to see we're steering clear of the mud-slinging going on in other posts here...
The secret most people don't understand is to ignore posts by people with handles that have reputations to annoy others. That way your life here at SubTalk will be much freer of stress and all the related nonsense that goes with it.
Doug aka BMTman
Good point. I haven't even attempted to read one of Mr. LA Transit System's posts in almost 6 months simply because I know that I can't understand what he writes. Because of this you will never see me in one of those "running-fight" threads. Out of sight, out of mind.
heypaul, I am starting to worry about you
Peace,
ANDEE
I'm a fan of subways for entirely practical reasons. They provide inexpensive, environmentally benign transportation for large nubmers of people, and are the only way a huge number of people can gather in one place without a massive traffic jam.
I admit that there are few elevator fans. But if automatic operation were cheaper and otherwise operationally better (a big if), I'm in favor. I doubt where will ever be no one on a train, however, regardless of the system of control.
Several airports use shuttle trains between terminals that are completely ATO, without a T/O sitting in a cab somewhere. Dallas/Fort Worth, Orlando, London Gatwick come to mind immediately.
That would be horrible. Driving a train takes skill, and computers just don't do as good a job of it as people. Computers also do not pay attention to people on the tracks and other nostandard conditions like that.
Right now they don't but give them another dozen years or so train operated computers may be advanced enough to take over all functions of train operation,look how fast it took computers to reach the level they are now,this is only the tip of the iceberg....so to speak. but it wouldnt be any more fun i agree.
There are motion sensors and obstruction sensors (like radar).
Yup....
And some big ol' rat sat on the track
and the train it would not move.
During my formative railfan years, I've never paid attention or cared how, why or where a train was operated.
My interest would not wane, instead it would pique, as I find that my interest is largely technological, the higher the technology, the more interesting it would be.
I'd still be a railfan. THe people mover at Hartsfield Airport is one of my favorite transit systems of all time. It's ZPTO and because of that makes it even cooler to know why it works. I guess I'm more technical about subways than about people. Probably explains why I would rather explore subways alone than with groups of people.
Not that I'm anti-socal, I would love to go on a Subtalk fieldtrip if I could.
The Branford Electric Railway Association gained a new member this Saturday with the addition of our very own Andee. He signed up as the 3/4 Ton crew got busy getting dirty with 6688.
With the very important Columbus Day weekend approaching for BERA's "Autumn in New York" weekend, Andee will be in a great position to test drive a SMEE, R-9 or Gate car.
Good for you Andee! Welcome Aboard!
Doug aka BMTman
Alright. Andee's the man!
-Stef
1. There is now a GT on the Manhattan bound track heading into Utica Ave :(:(:(:(:(
2. This weekend, it seems the 4 will be making local stops in both directions between Utica and Atlantic due to the track work at Atlantic. According to the line by line section, this station (Atlantic) is to renovated from top to bottom. When is this to be completed? I know on the NL/Flat bound local track there are orange markings on the floor....
3. More 3 line strip maps are appearing on the 2000# cars. This time on 2012.
4. More black floors appearing on the R62's as well.....
3Train#2012Mike
There is also a New Timer on the Uptown No.6 Local track at Union Sq.
Another place to slow down !!
Yes and it looks like more will be comeing.
Any idea where ??
Have a nice day !!!
They just seem to pop up without notice .
Can you please keep us up to date. Thanks !!
Have a nice day !!
Hi folks,
I am still looking for an actual Canal St. station sign with the
Chinese characters, recently removed during the MTA construction on
that station. I would love even a picture of one! Can anyone help?
I know that one large sign remains at the J,M,Z platform. I am looking for an image of one of the smaller ones with one set of
characters under the words "Canal St" No questions asked.
The Official Name of the Station on the Manny Bridge Line is Broadway, Not Canal Street, even though they did put a wooden sign above it saying Canal Street, how it is now, I do not know, but it was opened as Broadway, since the trains ran under Canal St
A few months back there was a thread on a store
in NYC which was selling (or displaying)
authentic, vintage NYC Subway signs.
Does anyone recall the location of this store?
The streets "Houston" and "Canal" seem to be
best remembered as being part of the address.
Is there a store that sells real subway signs in Manhattan? (Besides
the T.M. Gift Shop?
Hi, I want to know something about R142 Trains if they will be tested on the #1/9,and #7 lines if so when? Also why they are not testing R142s on the #5 lines I thought they were also purchase for the #5 line also?
Testing may ultimately be done on these lines but it's not generally planned for now - to the best of my knowledge. The highest priority is to begin to move cars into their fleets so that the #7 line can begin to receive it's new fleet of R-62As.
R-142/142A's on the 1/9???
.....we DON'T want 'em!!
PERFECTLY happy with the r-62A's on the homeline.
I logged onto Subtalk and I noticed that its changed! My feelings about the change aside I would like to know if our spiffy little SubTalk Graphic will come back at some point. I really liked it and it set the MB appart from the other web pages here at Nycsubway.org I now see that a railfan related banner ad is flashing in its stead, but can't there be room for both graphic and ad?
I noticed it also.
I noticed the change too. This commercialism has gone too far! In protest I am going to stop sending in my monthly check which helps Dave keep the Sub Talk board operating ....
(Oops, my accountant just told me we do not pay anything to use this board, I wonder how Dave is able to defray the expense of operating Sub Talk?)
Tom
Well, Dave's single, so this site is sort of like a wife for him... takes most of the money, gives a few thrills in return... :-)
(My apologies in advance to my dear wife, who will no doubt hear about this one from Anon_e_mouse Jr. or some other spy... and to all of the other wives out there!)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I don't care about the non-profit banner ad. I just want the Subtalk graphic back. I can't believe that nobody else here cares about that graphic.
Well, if you'll notice, the BERA ad is more on the line of a public service announcement... the graphic is on www.nycsubway.org, not on www.bera.org (although it provides a direct link).
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
SubTALK ad : "Autumn in New York, October 8 & 9"
BERA Website: "Autumn in New York, October 7 & 8"
Which shall it be??
The BERA website is correct...
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
BERA member 2757
I took the graphic off for the duration of the time the ad will be there because with all of the things (graphic, ad, and text box) it seems that the real "content" is way too far down the page... Don't worry the Subtalk graphic logo will be back.
-Dave
p.s. I corrected the date, thanks for pointing it out.
I had a most pleasant visit to the Shoreline Trolley Museum on Saturday, courtesy of Thurston and Doug BMT Man. I met them at the Pelham Bay Parkway station of the 6 line at 8AM and off we went. It is a wonderful place, I heartly advise everyone to visit and become a member (I did). I even did a little work on 6688 it is theraputic, to say the least. Took a ride on a trolley with Doug at the controls (yes, he is a maniac 8->). Took over 30 pictures and cannot wait to go up there again. I had to leave a little earlier than the rest due to an engagement I had in the city (yes Doug and Thurston I got over my tuna poisoning). So, Thurston took me to the New Haven station. It was my first ride on an M-3 cosmopolitian class Metro north car, love the coat hooks but, other than that, on the inside they are just like standard M class cars. New Haven Station is a very nicely restored station. Thanks to all involved for a most lovely day. See y'all for "Autumn in New York".
Also much thanks to David Pirmann, who, without, none of this would have been possible!
Peace,
ANDEE
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[I had a most pleasant visit to the Shoreline Trolley Museum on Saturday, courtesy of Thurston and Doug BMT Man.]
And don't forget Lou from Brooklyn (don't tell me the tuna poisoning affected the brain cells? ;-)
Glad you joined us Andee. Now I guess we qualify as the 7/8 Ton Crew!
Later,
Doug
>>>Glad you joined us Andee. Now I guess we qualify as the 7/8 Ton Crew! <<<
Very Funny, I thought I would make it a full ton. Thanks again! It was also nice meeting JEFF H and that young lady (whose name I cannot recall).
Peace,
ANDEE
I'm glad you came up. You'll love Autumn in NY. That was the one event that got me hooked as a volunteer with the BERA folks.
-Stef
Which area in NYC has subway stations surrounded by the most NYC Housing projects?
JUNIUS Street, on the #3 line! Old-style housing blocks to the north and new-style freestanding town houses and homes to the south, but these DON'T count as projects as they are mostly privately owned.
wayne.
Adjacent to the station, one would find the Van Dyke Houses. To the west of them are the Samuel J. Tilden Houses and Brownsville Housing, with Langston Hughes Houses to the north of those. A bit to the north are the Seth Low Houses and Howard Housing.
Yes, not too far from where I live. Junius and Rockaway Ave on the 3 are surrounded by projects. If you drive on Blake Ave and MG Blvd, there are 4 projects on each corner of the block. However, there are senior residents projects in that area as well.....
Honorable Mention:
J line: Between Chauncey and Eastern Pkwy.
2 line: Jackson Ave
G line: Myrtle Ave(Marcy Projects-Rapper Jay-Z)
Q line: 21St-Queensbridge (Queensbridge Projects-Rappers Mobb Deep and Nas)
2 line: Newkirk Ave (Vanderveer Projects)
B line: Bay 50St (Marlboro Projects)
That is all for now
Vanderveer isn't city housing, its privately owned.
Right, and the proper name is Vanderveer Estates (sounds fancy, but the housing ain't :-)
Doug aka BMTman
My grandmother lived there (not the one I always talk about by the Sea Beach but my other one) in the 60's when it was predominately Jewish. I understand Barbra Streisand grew up there.
Yes, not too far from where I live. Junius and Rockaway Ave on the 3 line are surrounded by projects. If you drive on Blake Ave and MG Blvd, there are 4 projects on each corner of the block. However, there are senior residents projects in that area as well.....
Honorable Mention:
J line: Between Chauncey and Eastern Pkwy.
2 line: Jackson Ave
G line: Myrtle Ave(Marcy Projects-Rapper Jay-Z)
Q line: 21St-Queensbridge (Queensbridge Projects-Rappers Mobb Deep and Nas)
2 line: Newkirk Ave (Vanderveer Projects)
B line: Bay 50St (Marlboro Projects)
That is all for now
3TM
There's the 1/9 at 225 Street.
Clark Palicka
CEO TrAnSiTiNfO
http://www.transitinfo.cjb.net
There's only one project there: Marble Hill.
Coney Island has the greatest concentration of public and publicly subsidized (mostly Mitchell-Lama and senior) housing in the United States.
The Dyckman Houses located on Nagle Avenue and Dyckman Street on the Broadway IRT line
Once again, that's only one project, not a sea of project as exists in many areas (like Junius Street).
While I do not know the name of the project, there is a very large housing project near the 174/175 Street station on the "D" concourse line. The train always empties at this stop (especially the front cars)
Peace,
ANDEE
Which area in NYC has subway stations surrounded by the most NYC Housing projects?
The current Queensbridge terminal of the 63rd Street line is in the midst of the Queensbridge Houses
The F line East Broadway stop is surrounded by projects at the Rutgers Street exit/entrance. You have the Rutgers houses and Pike street houses as well.
Another one is the Marcy/Flushing stop which is right at the corner os the Marcy houses.
I'm afraid to ask why you would ask that question.
I'm just curious and wondering if there is any corelation between violence in the subway system and New York City Housing projects?
As I've said before in answer to such questions, any answers put forth on this board are based on opinion, and only on opinion, and are therefore useless. For official answers to such questions, contact the New York Police Department.
David
I'm just curious and wondering if there is any corelation between violence in the subway system and New York City Housing projects?
I don't know for sure. While some of the stations in areas with many housing projects - Junius Street comes to mind - have a reputation as being dangerous, that might well be because they're in poorer areas, not areas with many projects per se. My hunch is that there might be some relationship, but it's nothing overwhelming.
Thanks Peter, I was just talking to someone about those two topics violence/subway system and the neighbourhoods they were in. Some police precincts in the early 90 like in ENY and Harlem had over 100 homicides a year. We were debating how this affected the subway.
Some past postings on this subject stated that some stations were great ambush places for gangs and thugs like Livonia and Myrtle aves.
Wondering if there are many projects in thoses areas?
Why is it that NYC subway cars sqeal so much while braking? The new subway systems built in 60s and 70s like BART, WMATA, MARTA, etc. quietly come to a stop. So obviously, since the 60s , the technology has been there for quieter brakes. Why weren't the R40s and all the orders after installed with better brakes? They didn't even have to have regenentive brakes like other systems. Does the R142 brake quietly? How about other old systems, like Boston and Chicago? I've been to Boston twice, but I can't remember if the Red and Orange lines had loud brakes.
I gotta admit, I love the sound of squealing brakes on subways and loud subways in general, but then again, I don't have to hear them everyday.
The R142's brake a lot quieter than redbirds and the R62. I think it uses air brakes, which makes it a lot quieter.
Clark Palicka
CEO TrAnSiTiNfO
http://www.transitinfo.cjb.net
Normally NYCT cars are slowed to between 5 & 7 MPH by dynamic brake. After that, the lockout magnet valve opens, allowing air into the brake cylinder, applying a pneumatic brake - just as the dynamic brake fades. The only screaching brake should be the last turn and a half of the wheel. However, if the propulsion package is not operating properly (ie: Dead motor or improper brake sequence)there is no dynamic brake current generated. This prevents the lockout magnet from locking out the cylinder air. Therefore you have a straight pneumatic brake. This causes the brake shoes to overheat and glaze over. After a while, they begin to screach.
Is that true of all cars currently running?
Is what true? I made a number of factual statements in my posting!
Sorry, I spaced. (_I_ knew what I was talking about!)
I meant to ask if all cars currently running use dynamic braking.
I've seen a T/O on a Slant 40 who was entering 42nd street/6 ave fairly fast apply the brakes gradually to full, then let go of the power handle, sending the train into emergency (I think) then put the handle back down and recharge(?) the brakes, so by the end of the platform we made a smooth stop. Were dynamics and air both being used there? Was something happening that I wasn't aware of?
In the scenario you describe, the brake handle was in full
service when the controller handle was released, therefore the
deadman would not have activated. I couldn't tell you why
the motorman did that...perhaps he needed to scratch at precisely
that moment.
Dynamic brakes are used for service braking. They fade out at
about 7 MPH, and then the friction brakes come in. In emergency
braking, the dynamics are disabled and it's all friction.
As I recall, it did seem as if we slowed down more rapidly when the handle went up.
It seems weird that the dynamics would be taken out for emergency, a time when you'd want maximum deceleration.
I was on an R-46 yesterday, and listened for and heard the dynamics all the way down to almost the stop.
Are you sure the train went into emergency, or was it a small puff of air, most likely being expelled from the P2A pilot valve? If the train went into full emergency, there is no way the brakes could have been recharged. I think the penalty time on the SMEES are around 25 to 30 seconds for most modern cars. The R9 cars could recharge rather quickly after dumping, with penalties near the 10 second range. The penalty time is the waiting time mandated before attempting a recharge, by RTO school car. I am assuming this time is to allow any back pressure in the Emergency Vent valves to deplete, so that it will close upon receiving the initial charge of new brake pipe air.
Having the dynamic brakes cut out during emergency braking has
always been a feature of SMEE as applied to NYCT equipment
all the way back to the R10s, and, if I'm not mistaken, the same
principle is used on the R142s.
This is in notable contrast to PCC-derived designs, which generally
supply friction, dynamic and magnetic track braking during emergency.
I've never found any documentation as to why the design is this
way. I can speculate that the intent is to provide a fail-safe
pneumatic means of stopping the train in case of catastrophic
trainline failure that results in a run-away power application.
The loss of brake pipe pressure opens up the emergency contactor
on each car which effectively disables the switch group.
Air is also delivered directly to the brake cylinders, bypassing
the lockout magnet valve. While in theory it would be possible
to modify SMEE cars so that the dynamics continue to function and
the air brakes come on as well, in practice this would result in
an emergency brake rate so high as to cause either sliding or
passenger injuries.
While in theory it would be possible
to modify SMEE cars so that the dynamics continue to function and
the air brakes come on as well, in practice this would result in
an emergency brake RATE SO HIGH as to cause either sliding or
passenger injuries.
In other words, the TA tampered with the EMERGENCY brakes to avoid sliding or injuries.
The TA never tampered with the emergency brake and it's somewhat irresponsile for you to imply that it had. As stated in Jeff's post, the emergency brake is the equivalent of the maximum dynamic, a bit over 3 MPH/Sec. If we had air over dynamic in an emergency brake application it would stop the train at approximately 7 MPH/Sec. People would be thrown through the car at that rate, causing significant injuries (not to mention significant equipment damage). You would have to admit that except in the case of an impending collision, there is no need to stop that quickly - ever. Normally BIEs are mistakes. At best a pulled cord or a released Deadmans to prevent the injury or death of one person. What sense does it make to potentially injure several hundred people to save one?
If you look at the Schematics for the Westinghouse and GE SCM controllers, you'll find dynamic drops out by design in emergency. If you look further, you'll find that PATH, NJT, Metro-North and LIRR all do the same. It's hard to understand why you'd assume that because 1 vehicle design (the PCC) is correct while all the other designs are incorrect. Perhaps if you look at brake adhesion rates for a PCC car compared to heavy rail vehicle,you'll see that your assumptions are incorrect.
I'm not asking for a 7 MPHPS deceleration, I doubt there would any capability of doing that considering the weight. I'm saying why call it an emergency brake application if it isn't. The R10s had the capability of throwing people through the windows because it had an "EMERGENCY BRAKE APPLICATION!" Thats what you need in an emergency, not some spruced up version of full service. Otherwise, by the old grandfather rules of the system, we would not be advised to write in our G2s after a 12-9 that we used the emergency position of the valve. We would be told to use the full service. I would not recommend the TA use air over dynamic in emergency, and only quoted one section of the previous post, not summing up the entire posting and for injury's sake 100 people can get over bumps and bruises where the soul pushing up daisies will be missed a hell of a lot longer. We might even have a few extra R42s to play with too. In general, emergency braking isn't what it used to be so why bother calling it emergency. Thats why I used tampering to desrcibe the quote.
How fast can a unmodified PCC stop in emergency in terms of Miles Per Second?
I was on a NJT train when it went into emergency at 70mph. The stop was pretty smooth too.
I'll answer the follow-up question of Rob King first to confuse
everyone: The PCC spec calls for up to 9.0 MPHPS braking rate
in emergency with all 3 modes (dynamic, air, track magnet)
in full effect.
I'll have to review my basic railway mechanics, but I don't think
maximum accel/de-accel rates are affected by vehicle weight when
all of the wheels in the train are producing tractive/braking
effort, at least on level track. Adhesion is expressed as the
percentage of weight on the wheel that is available as tractive
force before slipping happens, and a typical design figure is 20%.
Since acceleration is force divided by mass and since the value
of "g" is 32 ft/s**2 or about 22 MPH/s, this comes out to about
4 MPHPS maximum adhesion, which is the max accel/brake rate of
a PCC. PCCs obtain the higher emergency rate with magnetic track
brakes which are not worried about wheel sliding.
I can't think of any rapid transit operations that used track brakes
except the Chicago PCC-style cars (like the 6000s). Maybe someone
has some other examples. Those things can cause problems on long
trains especially around switches.
Back to ENGINE BRAKE's point: the lack of dynamics in emergency
braking was not "tampering" on the part of the TA. SMEE always
worked that way, even the R10s. We had a long discussion over a
year ago along with Erik, TrainDude et al about brake shoe
curves. Iron shoes have a curve that exhibits a much sharper rise
in friction coefficient as speed decreases. Since cylinder
pressure remains constant during the entire emergency brake
application it follows that braking rate will increase more sharply
as the train slows down with iron shoes as compared against
composition shoes. The emergency braking rate spec, which is often
quoted as 3.2 MPHPS, is either taken at a specific speed point or
represents an average over a typical emergency stop from maximum
speed. In either case, that number alone is not an accurate means
of comparing emergency stop distances at various initial speeds.
You've raised some valid points.
The crux of the matter is whether acceleration/braking rates in excess of 3.2 mph/s would cause serious passenger injuries. I believe that the PCC research showed that 4.5 mph/s could be tolerated as service rates, provided certain criteria regarding the uniformity of the acceleration/braking were met.
One of the most important consequences of going to the higher rate would be to increase the number of trains per hour from its present theoretical maximum of between 43-47 to the 55-60 range.
There are many conductive surface coatings that could be applied to the wheels and rails that would overcome the adhesion problem that you mentioned.
Of course, one must be careful about metrics. The most important metric is the stopping distance vs. the initial velocity. It would be nice, if the braking rate were uniform so that this relation could be expressed as a single parameter. One might hope that the limitations for applying such a parameter be documented, if deviations from a uniform rate are important.
Yes, the ERPCC found that high acceleration/braking rates were
not uncomfortable to passengers so long as jerk rate was limited.
The PCC cars did this to some extent, although as they aged that
parameter was not well-controlled.
The NYCT fleet could handle higher acceleration and braking rates
both in service and emergency. The TA has taken the first step
in _finally_ using distributed/microprocessor control of traction
and braking.
The cars are no where near the adhesion limit now. However, you
are quite right that in the past few years great developments have
been made in friction modifier gels which are applied to the
top of the rail and/or the wheel treads.
I have never seen an explicit specification for what "emergency
braking rate" means. It is always given as a plain acceleration
figure, e.g. 3.2 mphps, without further qualification. As you
said, the real question is stopping distance versus initial speed,
and in particular, stopping distance from the design maximum speed
on a particular stretch of track versus signal tripping distance.
Well, we know how that one turned out.
The new fleet will have the same acceleration/braking rates as the old, from what I've read.
There would be routing problems to take full advantage of significantly greater acceleration rates. A line essentialy runs as fast as its slowest component will permit, if regularly scheduled service is to be maintained. Perhaps, this is why the TA is planning to weaken its service regularity metric.
So, they should dedicate the new cars for the 1, 6 or 7 which do not interact with other lines or replace the 2,3,4,5. So, running tests on the 2 and 6 does not bode well. The most crowded IRT lines are the Flushing followed by the Lex Ave Expresses.
Do you think the TA could be as innovative as the BMT in mixing fast and slow acceleration trains on the same track? I can't think of any other way they could have taken advantage of the Multi's high performance and limited numbers other than the 14th St Expresses.
My GP-35 book says that with dynamic braking on, the throttle becomes "notchless" and controls a rheostat, which in turn varies the field for control of dynamic braking "power."
How are the dynamics varied on TA equipment? Is there some variable device run off the air? Or is it constant.
The GE SCM controller uses something referred to as a DBRT (Dynamic Brake Rate transducer). Simply, this device samples the Straight Air demand for brake. it then sends a signal to the current regulator which then regulated the amount of dynamic current needed to provide the equivalent of the air brake demanded. During this time, the air brake is locked out by the lock-out magnet. On Westinghouse, the component names are different but it works essentially the same way.
Train dude hit the nail on the head with that one. And yes Dave, this can happen to any car in the system.
The T has some majorly nasty squealing (or at least did when I lived there in the late 80s/early 90s. Among the worst is the Orange line in the "new" tunnel from Chinatown to Back Bay/South End, and where the tracks come out and parallel the Mass Pike between NE Medical Center and BB/SE.
Per official bulletin, GHoes on sale 7am on 9-18-00. Stations are **not** grouped, but rather listed as shown ont he bulletin which has one glaring typo which I'll show by asterisks (***) after the lines at that station.
As usual, a station might not get the cards even though it is on the list, and a nearby station not on the list might get cards due to supervisor transferring of cards to a booth. As usual, go to the mai9n booth at a station to ensure you get the card.
The List:
86---B,C
81---B,c
72---B,C
59--A,C,E,1
42---A,C,E
Jay Street--A,C,F
Hoyt/Schermerhorn--A,C,G
5th av--E,F
53rd st--E,F *****
51st street--6
5th av--- N,R
57---N,R
49---N,R
86---4,5,6
77---6
68---6
Grand Central---4,5,6,7,S
33---6
28---6
23---6
86---1,9
79---1,9
66---1,9
Clark St---23.
DeKalb---B,D,N,R